00:00:00 pkhuong: you're supposed to be able to tell the control flow, at least 00:00:05 paxcoder: exactly 00:00:11 rahul: well, bravo. 00:00:17 paxcoder: coding without states means nothing happens 00:00:22 impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176314187.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:00:29 to everyone who genuinely tried to help: thank you. 00:00:31 -!- paxcoder [n=paxcoder@unaffiliated/paxcoder] has left #lisp 00:00:32 you start and end and forever stay in the same state 00:00:42 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:00 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:02:01 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 00:02:05 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:02:15 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:04:13 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-216-097.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:04:54 -!- milaz [n=user@85.174.147.56] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:05:39 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:09:35 Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 00:09:37 fgtech^ [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 00:10:19 -!- pjb [n=t@85-169-61-208.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:10:21 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:10:24 fihi09` [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:25 Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483B3E8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:29 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B3E8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:10:29 -!- mogunus [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Success] 00:10:33 pjb` [n=t@85-169-61-208.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 00:10:35 pr_ [n=pr@p579CABED.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:37 mogunus [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:29 dreish_ [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 00:12:08 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:12:34 -!- fgtech^ is now known as fgtech 00:15:36 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-30-217.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:21:33 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483B3E8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:21:34 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:22:31 -!- chenfengyuan| [n=chenfeng@117.136.10.7] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:24:17 -!- Balooga_ [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has quit ["Balooga_ has no reason"] 00:24:18 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:24:54 Tordek [n=tordek@host48.190-137-252.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 00:26:47 Ralith_ [n=ralith@69.90.48.129] has joined #lisp 00:27:35 -!- etate [n=et4te@ip503c4d9b.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:29:13 -!- Soulman [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:29:46 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:33:50 billitch [n=billitch@dslb-088-075-189-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:53 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 00:34:59 xach: Did you see today's xkcd? Some very interesting graphs. 00:35:04 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:35:42 i understood only the 12 angry men one 00:37:22 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 00:38:11 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:26 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.212.119] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:39:18 it was a long way to go for the two jokes 00:39:25 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:39:29 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:39:29 yeah, exactly 00:40:39 Right. 00:42:04 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:42:13 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 00:44:51 lighterthanair [n=lightert@pool-72-68-194-89.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:48 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:51 stassats: have you seen primer? 00:46:15 yes 00:46:30 but only once 00:46:30 -!- Ralith_ [n=ralith@69.90.48.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:48:25 stassats: and you made a sense of it ? 00:48:36 is anyone aware of regular expressions for a stream ? 00:48:46 cl-ppcre only deals with strings 00:48:51 seangrove [n=user@adsl-71-135-123-161.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:54 fe[nl]ix: no 00:49:41 backtracking on a stream? 00:49:46 -!- rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:50:35 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.188.2] has joined #lisp 00:52:31 yohan [n=lab@adsl-074-182-100-076.sip.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:48 how do I represent a backspace escape character in a string in common-lisp? 00:52:52 -!- qsun [n=qsun@114.78.118.213] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:52:54 -!- Alabaman_ [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:53:05 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:53:51 C-q C-h in emacs? 00:54:55 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:55:20 -!- dlowe2 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:55:40 stassats: doesn't work 00:57:01 <_3b> yohan: yes it does 00:57:53 you won't see backspace effects in slime 00:58:51 <_3b> also, you might not be defining 'backspace escape character' the same way we do, but "doesn't work" doesn't tell us that 00:59:17 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.198.29] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 00:59:33 _3b, stassats: ok. thanks. 00:59:38 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-110-245.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:00:00 you can get a character using (code-char 8), for example 01:00:19 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:01:15 -!- lighterthanair [n=lightert@pool-72-68-194-89.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 01:02:04 or #\Backspace, which is semi-standard (not that (code-char 8) is portable) 01:04:18 Mmm... (code-char 8) isn't portable, but finding a system on which it doesn't work would be a bit difficult. 01:05:20 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 01:06:01 EBCDIC? 01:06:32 One of these days some people at work and I really want to write an Evil C Compiler, which is 100% standards conformant in the most irritating and unusual ways possible. I suspect a similar excercise in Lisp would be just as entertaining. :) 01:07:10 with a conforming prog2? 01:08:02 eh, that's just a spec text errata that nobody bothered to integrate back into the spec in the last 10 years. 01:08:47 I'm talking places where things are undefined, have implementation-defined limits, etc. 01:09:23 clisp sometimes irritates me in that regard 01:09:46 foom: such as array-dimension-limit = 1024 ? 01:09:54 fe[nl]ix: sure. that'd be a good one. 01:10:00 hahaha 01:10:01 -!- chris2 [n=zhora@dslb-094-216-036-143.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:10:16 in C, for external identifiers, only the first 6 are required to be significant, and case is not required to be significant. 01:10:55 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:11:28 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:11:40 Another nice thing is that signed integer overflow is undefined: it should of course do whatever the least useful thing possible is under the circumstances. Unfortunately, GCC has already pretty much got that one cornered. 01:11:59 foom: and write it in intercal 01:12:18 Each successive version improves the optimizer such that signed overflow is almost guaranteed to do exactly what you don't want these days 01:12:36 (so long as the optimizer can figure out what you meant) 01:13:29 foom: The least useful thing possible when dealing with signed integer overflow is running angband. 01:13:58 lol 01:14:00 That may not be permitted, though. 01:14:19 fe[nl]ix: GCC used to be defined to do something equivalent when it saw a #pragma, but that was since changed. 01:14:55 nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 01:15:03 e.g. (assuming "int x;") "if (x == -x) return true; else return false;" gets optimized into "return false", despite that condition being true when x == MIN_INT. 01:17:20 stassats: SIXBIT? 01:17:30 Really, couldn't they have defined signed integer overflow to happen as if you were operating on a ring of integers from -2^31 .. (2^31)-1 ? 01:17:43 -!- rutski [n=rutski@96.56.54.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:18:05 they could...and that's how unsigned overflow is defined (0 .. 2^32 -1). 01:18:08 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.199] has joined #lisp 01:18:09 I mean, it's only the model that most programmers would expect after all. 01:18:09 nyef: who they? 01:18:15 but that would put 1's complement machines at a disadvantage! 01:18:34 nyef: it's not GCC's decision to tell people what their hardware should do 01:18:38 !!!! 01:18:45 So what? CL happily puts 1's complement machines at that same disadvantage. 01:18:52 You wouldn't want to show preferential treatment towards 2's complement in the standard, now would you! 01:19:11 nyef: CL doesn't _have_ arithmetic overflow 01:19:14 And some CL implementations are sign-magnitude under the hood. 01:19:26 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:19:30 nyef: CL puts finite-bit machines at a disadvantage :) 01:19:51 MORE FINITENESS 01:19:51 (I personally think it's a pile of horseshit that signed overflow is defined to cause misoptimization, and unsigned overflow is defined to do what the programmer expects, but I'm just a user) 01:20:01 minion: chant 01:20:01 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-50-103.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:20:01 MORE FINITENESS 01:20:03 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-50-103.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:20:08 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:13 -!- colin__ [n=colin@118-169-33-188.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:20:19 chenfengyuan| [n=chenfeng@117.136.10.11] has joined #lisp 01:20:55 froydnj: shush, we're in the middle of a never-ending discusion here 01:21:23 well, my part ends now. later. :) 01:21:35 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:21:42 rahul: I have a dog in this fight, so I'm not getting involved :) 01:23:56 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:24:53 Is there a way to reload SLIME without restarting emacs? 01:25:25 more or less 01:25:27 I just did a 'clbuild update --installed' and SLIME is collapsing because the version in emacs is out-of-date 01:26:00 So, compiler/assem.lisp:(setf segment-current-index) has a FIXME-comment about a disabled AVER, saying that it is believed to apply normally, but not when called from FILL-IN, which appears to be a flet in process-back-patches. I can think of two ways to conditionally enable the AVER, but am not convinced that either of them are a good idea. 01:26:02 Adlai: see stassats's reload-slime 01:26:38 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["brb"] 01:26:48 Adlai: http://github.com/stassats/emacs-config/blob/master/init_lisp.el#L52 01:27:02 ah, thank you fe[nl]ix and stassats 01:32:07 Demosthenes [n=demo@s72-38-68-53.static.comm.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:39 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:33:07 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 01:35:58 -!- pr_ [n=pr@p579CABED.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 01:37:39 -!- nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:38:03 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-50-103.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:42:17 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.219.111] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:46:29 -!- chenfengyuan| [n=chenfeng@117.136.10.11] has quit ["used jmIrc"] 01:48:20 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:30 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:47 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-18.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 01:56:56 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:36 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-8172dc630ff4db80] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:03:47 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable239.238-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:06:37 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:09:27 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-20.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 02:09:33 I'm getting a lot of errors from slime/swank 02:09:36 *Adlai* pastes some 02:10:09 Ulfalizer [n=vfyuddg@h-88-48.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 02:10:12 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 02:10:23 Adlai pasted "appears each time I ,restart" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89703 02:20:53 stassats: yeah why not do backtracking on a stream ? 02:21:08 Right, I'm gone. G'night all. 02:21:10 that's not what i'n interested in though 02:21:38 Adlai: looks like you enabled tests. 02:22:03 i just want to parse a stream using regexp 02:22:22 pkhuong: I have no idea how... I just got CCL 1.4 and updated slime 02:22:56 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:23:13 i'm writing a couple of macros instead but feels like re-inventing the wheel 02:23:23 penisbird annotated #89703 "outrage!" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89703#1 02:23:49 i wish I could patch cl-ppcre to work with streams 02:27:03 cvandusen [n=cvanduse@99-166-72-116.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:32 vaginaalligator annotated #89703 "because" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89703#2 02:30:33 -!- Ulfalizer [n=vfyuddg@h-88-48.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit ["leaving"] 02:37:34 nicdev [n=nicdev@dorm-212.subnet-201.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 02:39:44 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:39:49 -!- coyo [i=alex@70.254.188.61] has quit ["May the Coyoes cook you some hot chili some day!"] 02:40:51 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:26 -!- araujo 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[i=cef01ac6@gateway/web/freenode/x-f5d3717be34635f7] has joined #lisp 04:30:08 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:30:40 -!- xoewp [i=cef01ac6@gateway/web/freenode/x-f5d3717be34635f7] has quit [Client Quit] 04:33:19 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:13 -!- thoolihan [n=thooliha@99-157-225-37.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 04:34:50 thoolihan [n=thooliha@99-157-225-37.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:00 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.87.221] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:58:28 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-236-221.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:49 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:04:26 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-29-62.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:38 i am trying to silently accept errors raised by skipping over the erroneous input records. my handler-case does catch the conditions, but it also passes them to debugger. how can handle a thrown condition silently? 05:06:13 i want the handling function to just advance a pointer and try again 05:06:25 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-232-090.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:08:21 *fusss* sees the example in PCL 05:18:30 fgtech^ [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 05:19:32 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:20:28 -!- fgtech^ is now known as fgtech 05:24:26 -!- troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:29:46 tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p296ba7.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:36:27 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.188.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:38:12 can someone please tell me if the ilisp package has been migrated to some other name in _debian_, or has it been removed completely? 05:40:07 ilisp is also not available through clbuild. so is the only way to install ilisp on debian through source? 05:40:57 spradnyesh: still here? 05:41:27 fusss: yup 05:41:28 ilisp is never a separate package in all the emacsen i have used 05:41:44 ;; your name doesn't seem to auto-complete in chatzilla 05:41:46 fusss: then how do i get ilisp? 05:42:00 it's built in, just fire up emacs and M-x lisp-mode 05:42:39 C-x 2 to split the window to two. C-x o to switch between windows. M-x run-lisp to run an inferior-lisp process. 05:42:52 spradnyesh: btw, why not use SLIME? 05:43:06 emacs expects an external CL implementation binary called "lisp", so just symlink to it. 05:43:30 p_l: i _am_ using slime 05:43:41 fusss: or you can always rename the default (something like inferior-lisp variable, don't remember exact name) 05:43:49 then why do you need ilisp? 05:43:49 spradnyesh: I'm just wondering why ilisp :) 05:44:45 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 05:44:58 however, i was having trouble debugging stuff the other day, and reading online gave me idea of ilisp 05:45:04 so wanted to try it out 05:45:16 o_O 05:45:24 ilisp is _very_ primitive 05:45:31 hmmm 05:45:37 use it as a last resort 05:45:43 so i guess, i'm already on the correct path ;) 05:45:46 thanks for the help guys 05:46:08 what platform are you using slime on? OS + lisp. 05:50:08 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-30-217.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:50:12 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.196.35] has joined #lisp 05:55:40 seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:57:06 trouble debugging? I bet he's using CLISP. 05:57:16 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:57:43 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-51-198.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 05:58:43 hehe 05:59:34 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.168] has joined #lisp 06:02:08 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:05:00 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:08:01 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 06:10:11 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:04 fusss: sorry for the delay; i'm on debian + sbcl 06:12:17 sykopomp: you lose the bet ;) 06:13:03 Axius [n=ojof@92.82.67.132] has joined #lisp 06:16:02 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:17:52 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:17:55 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has left #lisp 06:27:34 chenfengyuan| [n=chenfeng@117.136.10.14] has joined #lisp 06:27:47 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit ["off"] 06:31:25 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 06:31:54 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:34:54 ln5 [n=ln5@h129n7c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 06:35:29 spradnyesh: debian-provided SBCL? ;D 06:36:48 -!- chenfengyuan| [n=chenfeng@117.136.10.14] has quit ["used jmIrc"] 06:37:05 p_l: i do have sbcl installed via clbuild, but even that needs debian installed sbcl 06:37:23 if i uninstall the debian sbcl, then things dont' work smoothly 06:39:37 clbuild $ ./clbuild lisp 06:39:37 Warning: Cannot find an executable for implementation sbcl 06:39:37 ./clbuild: line 377: --userinit: command not found 06:39:37 clbuild $ ./clbuild list | grep sbcl 06:39:37 i sbcl Steel Bank Common Lisp (CVS) 06:39:37 i #sbcl Steel Bank Common Lisp (git) 06:40:25 so i need to have both clbuild sbcl, and debian-provided sbcl for things to work 06:40:29 do you have a different setup? 06:42:54 milanj [n=milan@77.46.251.138] has joined #lisp 06:46:11 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:46:21 redblue [i=star@ppp179.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 06:47:45 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp179.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 06:49:36 redblue [i=star@ppp018.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 06:57:48 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176314187.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 06:58:02 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.251.138] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:59:11 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.196.35] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:59:32 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.82.67.132] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:00:12 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 07:00:21 mishoo_ [n=mishoo@79.112.54.174] has joined #lisp 07:04:41 -!- dmiles [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:04:52 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:05:02 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:05:21 seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:13 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:08:41 hello 07:10:07 splittist [n=dmurray@125.214.249.195] has joined #lisp 07:10:09 morning 07:16:15 -!- roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 07:17:57 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 07:20:10 -!- ln5 [n=ln5@h129n7c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:22:18 http://paste.lisp.org/display/89710 07:22:27 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 07:22:28 any ide a why this seems to be leaking ? 07:24:02 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has left #lisp 07:28:04 kami- [n=user@p5B20C0AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:22 good morning 07:29:00 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:32:11 *rahul* is lost in a maze of MOPpery 07:32:56 where exactly do I munnge the initargs to my slotd? 07:34:06 I need to convert an arg that will show up in the class def as :formulap into :formulator-class (if formulap 'standard-formulator 'standard-formulator-source) 07:34:27 nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 07:34:46 oh oh, I think it's coming back to me... /me grabs AMOP for the last bit of inspiration he needs to remember this 07:35:26 xristos: semi-leaking? it seems to be released eventually. 07:36:59 well it doesn't get released here 07:37:19 (after hundreds of calls to gc) 07:37:34 hmm, actually, it should be working anyway, since I'm always choosing standard formulator... X| 07:37:40 xristos: this released it (but not guraranteed): (loop repeat 20 do (sb-ext:gc :full t)) 07:37:57 xristos: if you call GC 100 times, chances are, it will never be released 07:38:05 it's probably been interned by now 07:38:06 hmm 07:38:38 this is a snippet from my app which is left with 600-700mb leak 07:38:45 that i can't reclaim with gc 07:38:48 so it's an issue 07:38:51 #\| seems to be causing reader issues; what is the character or the vertical bar if not #\| ? 07:39:16 xristos: arrays like that are never GC'd 07:39:28 xristos: they're allocated in static space directly 07:39:32 rahul: why not ? 07:39:34 xristos: (based on size) 07:39:44 xristos: because they'd kill the collector 07:40:09 -!- xan-afk_ is now known as xan 07:40:21 so what can i do to lower mem use 07:40:28 fusss: what do you mean? it's a multiple quote escape char 07:40:59 fusss: use the single quote escape char if you actually want a | in your symbol: look at (intern "|"), for example 07:41:00 fusss - (let ((bar (aref "|" 0))) ...) 07:41:27 #.(aref "|" 0) even 07:41:41 how about (splite-sequence #\| (return-string-from-sqlite3-db-which-uses-bar-for-separator) 07:41:44 I expected to get a name from that, but ecl just says #\| 07:42:02 fusss: that should work 07:42:03 I have worked around it and reexported the data with $ as separator 07:42:19 fusss: maybe it's SLIME that's mis-handling it? 07:42:31 (if you're using SLIME) 07:42:34 it's slime, most likely :-) 07:43:38 rahul: isn't that array allocated on dynamic heap, then pinned, and finally unpinned? 07:43:54 fusss: yes, I see slime barfing any time it sees #\| 07:44:03 fusss: congrats, you found a bug!! 07:44:14 lharc: not that one 07:44:22 lharc: it's too big for dynamic space 07:45:03 rahul: I am gonna pay tcr a little visit and explain the issue :-P 07:45:28 rahul: too big? what is larger than dynamic-space? 07:45:30 heh 07:46:00 lharc: larger than the dynamic array size limit for most generational collectors 07:46:20 Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 07:46:32 xristos: why do you need such a massive data structure and then not need it later? 07:47:16 ln5 [n=ln5@212.247.10.33] has joined #lisp 07:47:20 rahul: opengl textures 07:47:28 that's ONE texture? 07:47:32 yes 07:47:49 i could use * 4 8192 8192 07:47:52 jeez 07:48:16 these durn new fangled monstrous GPUs 07:48:30 makin' all the kids throw the assumptions out the window 07:48:55 back in the day, 4 MW was ALL of main memory! 07:49:00 back in my day, we didn't need to manually manage our arrays! They were just GC'd! And we liked it! 07:49:56 -!- tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p296ba7.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 07:50:21 -!- mishoo_ [n=mishoo@79.112.54.174] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:50:40 actually, I suspect there is special memory management for any array larger than a memory page 07:50:47 at least in sbcl x86 07:51:01 (due to how the gencgc works) 07:51:39 really, the array object itself should be in dynamic space and the data vector should be malloc'd or some such 07:54:42 CLHS 3.4.6 sez: "Additional arguments that do not correspond to slot names but are merely present to supply values used in subsequent initialization computations are allowed." 07:54:45 I assume there is a variable in the GC that controls this behavior... 07:55:07 does that mean that varibales bound in BOA constructors by, say, &aux, can be used in slot definitions? 07:55:24 variables* 07:55:54 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:57:11 good morning 07:58:08 sykopomp: that's the point 07:58:55 sykopomp: although I thin kthat specific statement is talking about using one variable to compute another 07:59:25 rahul: Not necessarily. I'm talking about just binding random variables that slots in their initargs, not binding an &aux that will be used as the value of an identically-named slot. 07:59:32 (a b special &aux (c (srqt special)) for a struct with slots (a b c) 07:59:47 right, I know that much. 07:59:59 I think that's how you're supposed to achieve what you're asking about 08:00:04 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2b61.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:13 I don't think the variables in the constructors are visible in the slot initfunctions 08:00:27 since there could be some constructors with the extra arg and some without 08:00:29 I'm wondering if I can do, like (:constructor make-x (x)) .. ((foo-slot (make-array x))) 08:00:49 right, I think you need to use &aux for that instead 08:01:00 rahul: They -are- visible on at least SBCL and CCL, so I'm wondering if that would be considered ansi-compatible. 08:01:05 (x &aux (foo-slot (make-array x)) 08:01:17 hm. Alright. 08:01:20 sykopomp: that code works on SBCL and CCL? 08:01:26 rahul: indeed. 08:01:31 at least, it seems to. 08:01:35 odd. 08:01:50 what if you have another constructor without a parameter for x 08:02:02 does it barf then? 08:02:11 I haven't tested it -thoroughly- :) 08:02:12 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 08:02:18 I may as well just use &aux, since I know for sure that works. 08:02:20 -!- ln5 [n=ln5@212.247.10.33] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:02:27 it's also clearer 08:02:34 less action-at-a-distance 08:02:37 ln5 [n=ln5@212.247.10.33] has joined #lisp 08:02:41 minion: chant 08:02:42 MORE LIKELY 08:02:58 xristos: My guess it that memory should be released, and you've hit a sbcl bug. 08:03:07 oh, I see how it is, minion. only more, no less. fine then. 08:03:14 chantfail. 08:03:16 lharc: incorrect 08:03:28 lharc: this is how GCs work with large arrays 08:03:44 lharc: he needs to change the definition of "large" 08:03:50 rahul: what is an large array? 08:04:04 lharc: one that doesn't get collected :) 08:04:05 rahul: not necessarily if you think of slot definitions as part of a "body" of a constructor. 08:04:14 (wrt "action from a distance") 08:04:17 sykopomp: but it's not 08:04:29 rahul: right. I was thinking of it that way, is all. 08:04:29 sykopomp: unless you think a body can belong to multiple functions, I guess :) 08:04:47 well, you can call several functions from inside a body :D 08:04:47 rahul: if it shouldn't get collected, why does the memory then sometimes get collected? 08:04:55 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:04:58 rahul - why does it kill the GC to manage a large array that it doesn't need to look into for pointers? 08:05:01 sykopomp: yeah, but this is several functions sharing the same body 08:05:08 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:05:18 rahul: i'll ask later when nyef & pkhuon are around, if gc can;t be tuned for that i guess it'sback to manual mem management 08:05:52 ayrnieu: I don't know... I think it's really only meant for arrays that could contain lisp objects. I'm not sure if SBCL just ignores the distinction 08:05:53 yeah. 08:06:06 lharc: it's not being collected at all :) 08:06:49 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229240178.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:07:09 OH! 08:07:11 rahul: but (room) shows otherwise, it returns to its initial values. 08:07:24 xristos: it's probably being stored in the history variables 08:07:31 lharc: huh? 08:07:40 lharc: the problem is that it's not... 08:08:01 rahul: nope 08:08:43 rahul: yes the history could explain why (room) goes down sometimes and sometimes not. I'll recheck. 08:09:25 oh, SOME of them are collected 08:09:48 some of them are probably interned because there is so much data going into the heap 08:09:54 maybe you need bigger generations 08:10:38 look at a gc space breakdown 08:11:20 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 08:12:44 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-17-97.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 08:13:15 I can't figure out where all this functionality went :\ 08:14:02 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 08:14:16 Good morning! 08:14:26 morning 08:15:36 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 08:16:26 ok, history is not involved as xristos said, even though I harass the heap I cant get the memory back. sbcl is full of bugs.. 08:17:34 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@66.11.161.166] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:17:57 lharc: you need to figure out which generation the data has gotten to 08:18:08 I suspect it's interned 08:18:34 rahul: interned? 08:18:48 er tenured 08:20:10 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:20:59 rahul: I just got a Heap exhaustion, and now it got released :) 08:21:02 I'm sure it's somewhere in sb-vm 08:22:32 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@125.214.249.195] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 08:22:44 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:24:57 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-7-167.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 08:25:56 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:26:52 -!- Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 08:26:55 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:27:31 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:43 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-40-201.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:31:59 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:40:18 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:41:21 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:43:34 aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:44:01 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:46:51 Hi levy, hi attila_lendvai. How can I be sure that I'm using the correct slime/swank? Is there a symbol which is only present in your code? 08:47:21 kami-, hi, our branch pushes :hu.dwim.slime into *features* 08:47:38 *kami-* checks 08:48:09 attila_lendvai: it's there 08:48:52 I even build ubuntu packages from that source to be sure it _really_ gets picked up by emacs-snapshot 08:48:59 s/build/built/ 08:49:22 attila_lendvai: does your log output also go to *inferior-lisp* ? 08:50:06 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:50:23 kami-, no, it should go to the slime repl (if you start stuff from slime) we have (setf swank:*globally-redirect-io* t) 08:50:50 but there's some bug in it, and sometimes i do see logs and stdout going to the inferior buffer 08:52:33 attila_lendvai: I /thought/ I had it set, but I must have removed it meanwhile 08:52:56 attila_lendvai: where do you set it? in .sbclrc? 08:54:43 ASau [n=user@host129-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 08:55:06 kami-, err, i have no idea... :) i grepped our codebase, looked at a few places and i don't know 08:55:32 .swank.lisp ? 08:57:24 tcr: thanks. That's where I put it in March, and then commented it, because _with_ it, I got disconnected everytime I called a specific function in my code base 08:57:24 08:57:54 *kami-* hopes that issue is not existent any more 08:58:16 what is the preferred-communication-style for sbcl? 08:58:55 :spawn if you have threads 09:00:35 Hmm. I get "undefined variable: SWANK-BACKEND:PREFERRED-COMMUNICATION-STYLE" 09:01:47 it's swank:*communication-style* 09:03:04 tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p296ba7.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:03:56 tcr: thanks 09:04:19 levy: the meta-gui seems to have problems with vectors. 09:04:57 levy: if you go to dwim.hu. Menu 'Debug' > Inspect > Server. 09:05:30 levy: and then click on the slot WORKERS. 09:06:15 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 09:06:29 Arelius [n=user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 09:06:49 What's a good native threaded lisp? 09:07:03 depends on your plattform 09:07:23 OS X/BSD 09:07:35 I'd be interested in the ability to run on Windows too 09:07:56 -!- tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p296ba7.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:08:05 clozure cl sounds like a viable choice then 09:08:50 Cool 09:08:56 What would be some other options? 09:09:34 lispworks perhaps 09:09:34 Ohh, clozure looks nice 09:09:50 "look"? 09:10:02 looking at feature lists 09:10:29 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:10:39 ah heh ok for a moment I thought you may try to draw a conclusion from screen shots ;) 09:10:44 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:11:02 Haha 09:11:35 I am looking from scheme, where we have no native threads 09:11:42 well, there seems to be chez 09:11:48 but that's a commercial scheme. 09:11:56 -!- rlarson89 [n=reid89@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:12:13 rlarson89 [n=reid89@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 09:12:51 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:13:01 kami-, thanks will check later 09:15:20 Arelius: Clozure CL is a very nice implementation. Specially when paired with SBCL. 09:15:27 levy: regarding the filter, I tried (make-filter 'person :initial-alternative-type 't/detail/presentation), but I get only a link with the text 'person' and clicking on it leads to an error. 09:15:47 *sykopomp* really likes having multiple implementations to test on. 09:15:54 test/develop/whatevs 09:16:42 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:17:54 ("Specially when paired with SBCL." is something you can say about a lot of implementations. e.g., ECL is very nice, especially when paired with something that won't smile and accept your malformed code.) 09:18:41 ayrnieu: The process of developing on both platforms in parallel is very enjoyable. 09:19:07 sykopomp: how does it -pair- well with sbcl? 09:19:38 Arelius: they have different strengths 09:19:47 Ohh neat 09:19:49 CCL has a very fast compiler (compared to SBCL), and has some nice cross-platform perks. SBCL, on the other hand, compiles very slowly, but it has very nice type inference, and can even do some static type checking for you. It's good at picking up some bugs, once you've developed more interactively on CCL. 09:19:56 CCL compiles code very quickly 09:20:01 SBCL compiles very fast code 09:20:09 (destructuring-bind (_ _ x _) '(1 2 3 4) x) ;; works in ecl 09:20:26 Does SBCL have a native thread implementation? 09:20:39 Arelius: it uses native threads, yes 09:20:44 Arelius: on Linux. 09:20:49 right 09:20:58 Mmm, not on BSD or OS X? 09:20:59 Arelius: CCL has native threads on all platforms, iirc. 09:21:15 ACL, too, right? 09:21:21 I'm not -sure- if SBCL has threads on BSD and OSX. I think it does. It definitely doesn't have a working implementation on windows. 09:21:29 Sure 09:21:31 or is ACL the one that just native on windows? 09:21:32 ACL has native threads? 09:21:46 but Both BSD and OS X have pthreads 09:21:51 which windows does not 09:22:00 that's news to me. I seem to recall a FAQ where ACL explained their threading issues. 09:22:04 Arelius: pthreads is hardly enough for getting good multithreading 09:22:09 Sure 09:22:13 -!- ln5 [n=ln5@212.247.10.33] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:22:27 sykopomp: yeah, I think they had issues on unix 09:22:29 -!- billitch [n=billitch@dslb-088-075-189-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 09:22:30 anyways, SBCL also has a fantastic profiler that's really great for speeding things up. 09:22:37 sykopomp: but I think they have it working on windows, or something strange like that 09:23:03 even with SBCL threads on unix, though, I'd still prefer threading on CCL. 09:23:05 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-128-220.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:23:32 Thanks! 09:23:36 they seem to take greater care to make the threads safe, and they have some shiny things like very nice lock-free thread-safe hash tables. 09:24:01 CL seems to have much more of their shit together 09:24:02 Arelius: really, I have like 4 lisp implementations installed, although I mainly use CCL, then SBCL, then clisp as a command-line calculator. 09:24:12 attila_lendvai: what could I try to get the debugger back? It's tedious not to be able to inspect values in different stack frames 09:24:12 09:24:19 Arelius: don't knock SBCL. It's a very nice implementation. 09:24:28 and it has several advantages. 09:24:32 Arelius: SBCL's threading uses those fancy new fast locks in linux 09:24:32 5 instructions, no context switch, to acquire and uncontended lock 09:24:36 which is why I'm saying: I like using both :) 09:24:38 sykopomp: I ment CL as in Common Lisp altogether 09:24:59 Arelius - haven't you heard? It's a bad thing that CL has more than one implementation. 09:25:00 Arelius: compared to scheme? Sure. A lot less academic wanking going on over here. 09:25:43 CL users build applications. scheme users build libraries 09:25:46 or so it seems... 09:25:53 Do they? 09:26:07 sure, but the libraries aren't portable :) 09:26:12 rahul: speak for yourself. I write CL libraries like a madman :( 09:26:12 kami-, no idea from remote, you need to debug the situation. search for maybe-invoke-debugger in hu.dwim.wui and in hu.dwim.util and identify what's (not) happening 09:26:12 jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-57-194.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:26:16 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 09:26:24 then again, they're all portable across at least 2-3 implementations :) 09:26:30 I am excited to try SLIME too 09:26:31 sykopomp: some of my packages are somewhere between library and application 09:26:54 sykopomp: that's the really cool thing about writing lisp code... the line is blurred: language, library, application 09:27:00 kami-, one idea: the debug-on-error slot of the application overrides the special variable... should be unbound. you can (trace debug-on-error?) 09:27:07 rahul: I need to get around to writing more applications. It's a problem, though: I spend lets of time building up tools. Then I have the tools. And then I don't feel like writing the application anymore :) 09:27:16 heh 09:27:28 sykopomp: I have a feeling that's what happens to most schemers 09:27:41 I think one thing I'm learning to appreciate a lot about CL is that it lets you go really low-level when you want/need to. 09:27:47 or they're just academics so they don't have an application in mind anyway 09:27:50 Schemers? Aren't most of us lost in the tool-side camp? 09:28:02 "you can feel the sand between your toes" 09:28:12 kami-, another thing: the asd system called :hu.dwim.uril+swank should be loaded for the swank integration of the error handling 09:28:52 I've been working with a couple of people on porting a C library to lisp. It's been two days, and we're almost done with porting the 4KLOC C lib into lisp. 09:29:16 Yeah, I know what you mean 09:29:34 yet it's still got a lot of the low-level oomph to it :) 09:29:36 I've needed good UI in scheme, and I just spent the last month writing QT bindings for scheme 09:29:42 we'll find out just how much slower we are once teh thing runs, I guess. 09:30:01 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 09:30:09 Arelius: the UI toolkit situation isn't -that- much better in CL. 09:30:21 Hehe 09:30:26 you definitely won't find any QT bindings 09:30:27 Arelius - this is where I'd say "which one?" and then point CFFI out, but I-- darn. 09:30:34 hm? 09:30:40 There's already Qt bindings, though. 09:30:47 Haha 09:30:51 http://common-lisp.net/project/commonqt/ <-- 09:30:56 personally, I'd gouge my eyes out before managing to figure out how to create a decent FFI to C++ 09:30:59 Mecaguento [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has joined #lisp 09:31:13 sykopomp: uh how does it work? 09:31:13 There must be a standard function for (setf foo (append (cdr foo) '(bar))) I kinda feel a little stupid, but I don't know what it's called. What is it? 09:31:16 rahul: I used chicken which can generate c++ code 09:31:22 rahul: Check your facts after months of absence! lichtblau got a hemlock with qt backend 09:31:25 rahul: 1. Wrap the C++ with C, 2. Bind to the C, 3. ???, 4. PROFIT 09:31:27 -!- Mecaguento [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has left #lisp 09:31:43 jtza8: it's called GENERATE-GARBAGE-SLOWLY :) 09:31:47 or something. I don't really know how it works. 09:31:53 Any adea how complete commonqt is? 09:31:59 sykopomp: heh 09:32:05 rahul: :) 09:32:06 Arelius: I believe it's already being used by the author in production? 09:32:15 sykopomp: which defeats the purpose of having an OO library 09:32:41 sykopomp: But in general you need very incomplete bindings for production usage 09:33:01 There are tons of little scheme qt bindings that allow some minimal stuff. 09:33:07 and are usable 09:33:08 rahul: http://techbase.kde.org/Development/Languages/Smoke 09:33:10 if you just need widgets 09:33:27 b3nt_pin [n=brent@stjhnf0140w-142162064055.pppoe-dynamic.nl.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 09:33:40 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:33:41 oh my, it uses #_ everywhere 09:33:46 *rahul* gouges his eyes out 09:33:47 rahul: I think binding to C++ and using some of its semantics partially defeats the purpose of using CL... 09:33:50 tsuru [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:33:51 (see, I told you) 09:34:06 sykopomp: huh? 09:34:14 nothing, nevermind :) 09:34:15 ... why does ACONS exist? 09:34:17 sykopomp: if that's true, then binding to C is even worse 09:34:24 ayrnieu: for fun heh 09:34:40 sykopomp: for QT you only need to use the bindings for some ui 09:34:46 and you can hide that away somewhere 09:34:48 ayrnieu: it's for making the ADT complete 09:34:52 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 09:35:04 presumabally the application actually does something 09:35:12 other then just sits and widgets all day 09:35:17 Arelius: I will still gouge my eyes out when I read that code 09:35:42 Arelius: the situation with UI could really be better in CL, afaict. 09:35:55 at least LTK seems decent :) 09:36:58 tcr: this has got to be ungodly slow 09:37:16 tcr: it's like using Java reflection on every function call, right? 09:38:35 I guess it's not much slower than portable common loops in 2000 09:39:59 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:20 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:40:47 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:41:06 levy: what is the correct filter type for a slot of type (set )? sequence/list/filter ? 09:41:59 How would this translate to SBCL?: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=918526 09:43:49 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:43:50 at the moment? There's no notion of string-reverse that is distinct from reverse-all-the-codepoints, so exactly the same as python 09:44:07 that is, a string is defined as a sequence of unicode codepoints 09:44:28 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:44:30 whether you think that is a "fuckup" depends on your ability to accept or reject that definition per se, as opposed to working with it 09:45:45 and on whether you consider unicode itself to be a "fuckup" in the first place ;) 09:45:55 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:46:16 (although this is the general area I'm currently working on, I would encourage contributions of useful unicode-aware algorithms such as normalization and collation, because at the rate I'm going it might be next year before they happen) 09:46:27 Xof: thanks :) it's mostly curiousity on my part and i have no experience with unicode on sbcl 09:46:46 do you have any experience with unicode anywhere? 09:47:31 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:47:53 'working with it' step 1. redefine string to mean 'a sequence of (codepoint|adjectives and codepoint)s' 09:50:00 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.215.211] has joined #lisp 09:50:01 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:50:01 xof: not really, except for recognizing character codes in xml and rtf for my day job (when a document says it's in utf-8 or iso-8859-1 but actually isn't) 09:51:18 hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:52:07 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:52:18 -!- ASau [n=user@host129-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:52:30 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 09:52:36 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 09:52:44 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-57-194.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:54:19 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:54:38 billitch [n=billitch@dslb-088-075-189-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:54:39 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 09:54:44 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:55:10 rahul: 1. I'd wish people would stop complaining that they don't like the design in CommonQt when they could use cl-smoke instead, which makes the exact opposite design choices. STFU about the solution you don't prefer and just use the one one that you like. 09:56:04 2. why would a simple table lookup be architecturally doomed to be slow compared to, say, CLOS? They same caching techniques that are used on CLOS could be used for smoke, too. 09:56:12 demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 09:56:30 And how does Java reflection being slower than straight Java method calls even enter into a discussion about Lisp calling C++? 09:58:39 Also, welcome back to #lisp :-). 09:58:58 it's ok, I'd never use Qt anyway :) 09:59:11 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:59:31 I don't find any compelling reason to choose it over anything else. 09:59:50 tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p296ba7.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:00:01 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 10:00:06 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 10:00:15 the difference between java reflection and straight calls is exactly the difference between smoke and direct C++ calls, from what it looks like in the smoke doc 10:00:18 s 10:01:08 danlei [n=user@vpn082.uni-trier.de] has joined #lisp 10:01:11 does smoke return a function pointer? that can probably be cached the same way... what about slot access? does it tell you the offset from the object pointer? 10:01:12 Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 10:01:23 and #3: I guess it's not much slower than portable common loops in 2000 10:01:44 but you should use qt(hemlock) because of this bonus: TTY backend mostly works again, some details to be ironed out. 10:01:56 hmm 10:02:40 -!- ia_ [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:03:16 I'm mostly sick of non-command oriented interfaces these days anyway 10:03:27 -!- gaze [n=gaze@ResNet-36-138.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:03:44 hunt and peck interaction is so 1980. 10:03:54 gaze [n=gaze@ResNet-36-138.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 10:04:57 -!- hkBst_ is now known as hkBst 10:05:09 is there any truly self hosting common lisp compiler? 10:05:14 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:05:44 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:45 ln5 [n=ln5@212.247.10.33] has joined #lisp 10:06:19 OmniMancer: is there one that's not? 10:06:23 OmniMancer, what's the difference between a self-hosting implementation and a truly self-hosting implementation? 10:06:33 (except for the obvious ones that use C) 10:06:44 ayrnieu: maybe the pope's blessing 10:06:48 what I mean is one that is written purely in common lisp and NOTHING else 10:07:10 OmniMancer: what is "purely in common lisp" supposed to mean? 10:07:23 how do you make a syscall in pure CL? 10:07:31 no tiny C kernel at the bottom 10:07:47 how do you munge a specific memory address in pure CL? 10:07:52 rahul: you generate the right machine code ? :) 10:07:56 juste like in C, actually. 10:08:06 koollman: and then you can't execute the machine code 10:08:09 you create extension libraries for CL 10:08:18 what's the CL function to change the PC? 10:08:26 you make one :D 10:08:33 um 10:08:38 show me the code for it 10:08:47 why should I? 10:08:51 OmniMancer, so would you say that SBCL is a self-hosting pretender because it has a bit of C that boots it? Self-conscious SBCL maintainers should instead rewrite the C in C-emitting CL? 10:08:53 because you claim it exists 10:09:22 no SBCL is self-hosting 10:09:29 OmniMancer, while people bomb you with fake philosophical questions, i don't know about any. it would need to know about elf or other exe formats, etc... not really worth it, unless you target the hw, which is in turn again not worth it... C is a portable assembler, and it's practical to use it like that. 10:09:45 er, then you already knew the answer to your question. 10:09:53 attila_lendvai: you can't target the machine is pure CL 10:09:55 in 10:10:14 OmniMancer: is CCL not self hosting? 10:10:24 but it would be interesting to add the extensions to CL that let you emit the stuff that the C kernel was doing 10:10:24 rahul, of course it involves a bootstrap phase, where you give your output to the underlying universe to run it 10:10:45 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.196.35] has joined #lisp 10:10:48 well, you can write an assembler, then write a compire for that assembler, tehn... you get bored and reuse existing tools because they work better than your highly NIH-symptomatic implementation 10:10:56 OmniMancer: those extensions are dependent on the implementation 10:10:57 s/compire/compiler/ 10:10:57 yea you have code that would be run by a CL system to create the binaries 10:11:01 then you run them 10:11:03 OmniMancer: and therefore, not portable 10:11:23 rahul - no, they'd just be specific to the architecture. 10:11:33 ayrnieu: and implemnentation decisions 10:11:52 ayrnieu: register allocation / calling convention kind of things 10:12:03 you can provide libraries that implement them for say files the actual implementation may have versions that emit to memory though 10:12:30 OmniMancer, my impression is that it's much more work than you think it is 10:12:37 OmniMancer: why do you want a compiler without COMPILE or LOAD? 10:12:51 ...and boring work 10:13:01 all you can implement portably is COMPILE-FILE 10:13:44 I know how much work it is 10:13:51 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483BD42.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:14:01 would be interesting to do a bare metal implementation that way though :P 10:14:04 OmniMancer: do you have a point? 10:14:12 OmniMancer: it's already been done 10:14:24 except it's not in pure CL 10:14:33 yeayea 10:14:36 (since you can't create a function object in pure CL) 10:14:46 a CL that targeted llvm might be interesting 10:14:53 um 10:15:07 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:15:13 you can once you implement what you need in order to create a function object in pure CL 10:15:30 OmniMancer: that is a nonsensical statement. do you have a point? 10:15:54 if you make your CL include things that are not in CL, then it's not pure CL you're using. 10:16:43 it is if you write those things in CL :P 10:16:53 attila_lendvai: what is the accessor name for the slot debug-on-error of application? 10:17:09 OmniMancer: clearly, you have no clue how to write an incrementally linking compiler. 10:17:23 or how one could possibly work. 10:17:40 actually, you have the same issue in a dynamically linking system, too. 10:17:53 yes I do understand that CL lacks the memory management and memory write primitives required for it to be done in pure CL 10:18:08 kami-, don't know offhand, ask your inspector 10:18:24 OmniMancer: then why are you asking us if there is an implmentation that doesn't need such primitives? 10:18:42 attila_lendvai: the slot is unbound anyway. 10:18:49 kami-, :accessor nil, it has no accessor 10:19:02 rahul - he's no longer asking that. 10:19:14 kami-, that's good. it's a load issue, check if the swank integration of hu.dwim.util is there and working 10:19:21 ...most probably, that is 10:19:24 attila_lendvai: I loaded util+swank and now it works! 10:19:30 ayrnieu: then what is he asking for? a compiler that implements its own assembler? 10:19:33 the off-putting initial question has been replaced with "forth's metacompilers are cool" 10:19:36 the primitives could be implemented in the bootstrapping step 10:20:04 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:20:07 minion: tell OmniMancer about sbcl 10:20:08 OmniMancer: have a look at sbcl: Steel Bank Common Lisp is an open source / free software Common Lisp implementation. http://www.cliki.net/sbcl 10:20:09 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 10:20:57 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 10:21:35 is there any interest in creating a smalltalk like system for common lisp? 10:21:56 you mean orthogonal persistence? 10:21:57 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 10:22:00 An IDE you mean? 10:22:01 or lack of multiple dispatch? 10:22:19 I mean the builting GUI and the persistance 10:22:28 builtin* 10:22:33 slate was doing that, I think 10:22:42 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 10:22:45 attila_lendvai: thank you. Now that I'm in sldb, I see the problem. find-filter-type-for-compound-type* is called with a slot of type (set wait-for-subject) 10:22:53 it would make common lisp somewhat more alluring 10:22:53 no, slate is now a truly self-hosting compiler. 10:23:09 *sigh* 10:23:12 OmniMancer: for the 20 people in the world who use squeak sure :) 10:23:22 OmniMancer: Sure, we are working on it. Le me know if you are interested in helping out. 10:23:24 only 20 of them :P 10:23:26 (That sounds snarky, but it's true.) 10:23:28 attila_lendvai: but I don't think I have defined such a thing. It's probably inherited from meta-model or model 10:23:53 BrianRice [n=water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:59 OmniMancer: lisp machines are so 1990 anyway 10:24:15 speak of the devil 10:25:04 that is a bit of a scary coincidence 10:25:06 plage: I think it would also be nice to not have the "there is no GUI" problem 10:25:17 OmniMancer: there is a GUI 10:25:27 can we stop this conversation now? 10:25:31 OmniMancer: We have McCLIM for GUIs, Climacs for editing code, Clouseau for inspecting objects, etc. 10:25:34 I say "conversation" but really it's like a broken record 10:25:46 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:25:55 attila_lendvai: it's from (def association ((:type (set wait-for-subject)) (:type subject :primary #t :reference #t))) 10:26:01 does McClIM work without X? 10:26:10 Xof: I just arrived. Is there a problem? 10:26:23 OmniMancer: what does CLIM have to do with X? 10:26:59 what does it not have to do with X? 10:26:59 OmniMancer: Yes, CLIM has several backends possible. It so happens that our X11 backend is the most complete one, but nothing prevents other backends. 10:27:02 Let me translate: "does McClim have backends other than CLX?" 10:27:08 This is a very very boring conversation that seems to happen about once a week; I can predict exactly how it goes 10:27:17 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:27:25 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 10:27:27 Xof: Tell me! 10:27:39 wait, he's going to complain that GC is slow next 10:27:46 the more annoying problem is that: no one bothered to give proper windows support to ASDF or ASDF-INSTALL 10:27:57 OmniMancer: that's your fault 10:28:03 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 10:28:22 khisanth_ [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-230-238.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:28:22 I wish someone who used windows could write code. 10:28:23 plage: really? No, instead I think I will just shut up now 10:28:25 *danlei* is on windows and his asdf works 10:28:26 -!- khisanth_ [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-230-238.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:28:53 -!- Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit ["leaving"] 10:28:56 Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:28:58 Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 10:29:10 asdf works sort of 10:29:21 OmniMancer: how on earth are people who never use windwows supposed to create software that works on windows? 10:30:02 I'm not going to reboot into windows just to code some portability for ASDF. 10:30:07 Xof: It was an honest question. I guess my memory is bad enough I don't recognize the conversation (yet). 10:30:15 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:39 I think the main problem is in that asdf uses symlinks and the applicable code is not aware that windows shortcuts are the equivalent 10:31:49 OmniMancer: basically, if you're upset that ASDF or whatever other software in that category doesn't work in windows, blame your user community for being unable to figure out how to write code 10:32:05 OmniMancer: so fix it and stop complaining 10:32:50 do whatever it is windows users do to figure out the target of a shortcut in the asdf code and contribute the code back so the next person doesn't have the same stupid complaint 10:34:18 OmniMancer, windows has symlinks: http://shell-shocked.org/article.php?id=284 10:34:21 afaict, it's your implementation's fault because it doesn't resolve the target of the shortcut 10:34:42 sbcl is sorta like that :( 10:34:54 OmniMancer: I use asdf on win32 everyday; 7-zip is better than asdf-install 10:35:34 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 10:35:34 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:35:48 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:35:55 kami-, filters for (set foo) do not yet work 10:36:12 nice section heading on that page: Deleting Symlinks With Normal Windows Filesystem Tools Is Not Only Dangerous But Also Bizarre 10:36:51 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 10:37:07 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 10:37:34 levy: how should the find-...compound-type* look like to avoid an error and have no filter instantiated for those fields? 10:37:50 I might have accidently written some "mapreduce" type code forgetting it was clsql over sqlite underneath, and 2GB of text; entire machine is locked 10:38:28 kami-, try returning t/filter 10:38:41 levy: thanks 10:38:59 -!- knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:39:05 fusss: what implementation? 10:39:12 sbcl on linux 10:39:15 ayrnieu: gets crazier when some idiots suggested to other idiots that deleting the SxS directory (which is a directory tree full of *hardlinks*) will save them space :> 10:39:18 kami-, I think I'm going to put it in as default 10:39:21 the most adequate platform 10:39:23 on windows? 10:39:36 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 10:39:36 ayrnieu: let's say, it's one of the guaranteed ways to cripple the system beyond repair :> 10:39:45 I do the same in Windows as well, OmniMancer 10:39:52 jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-89-122.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:39:55 and your asdf works? 10:40:09 asdf works 10:40:17 in the intended manner? 10:40:40 would you mind terribly explaining how to make it work? 10:40:46 -!- Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit ["leaving"] 10:41:15 asdf doesn't need symlinks at all. 10:41:26 Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 10:41:28 add what you want to the *central-registry* 10:41:50 do you have to do that every time? 10:42:02 -!- Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 10:42:10 OmniMancer: do you use the command line in windows? 10:42:16 yes 10:42:29 OmniMancer: how do you execute programs that are not in c:\windows\system32? 10:42:42 cd there and run them 10:42:48 haha 10:42:56 OmniMancer: why should using ASDF be any different from that? 10:43:01 or if they are in the path just run them 10:43:27 Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 10:43:42 OmniMancer: so I don't see how ASDF behaves differently from how windows users expect 10:44:03 you can load a .asd from a specific location or you can add it to the *central-registry* 10:44:07 fusss pasted "kitten asdf of death" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89715 10:44:25 that is the annoying part :( 10:44:36 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:43 msg me privately and I can walk you through it 10:44:58 OmniMancer: the windows part? 10:45:06 it's pretty straight forward. 10:45:14 -!- Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 10:45:24 just get sbcl binary for win32 (along with closure binary and perhaps clisp) 10:45:25 the put everything in *central-registry* part 10:45:27 Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 10:45:31 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:45:41 OmniMancer: you use your .sbclrc :-) 10:45:42 OmniMancer: this is how windows users do things 10:45:53 I guess I should finish my recursive find-system 10:46:08 OmniMancer: they need to do it for command line, so why should CL be any different? 10:46:16 (require :asdf) 10:46:17 (dolist (dir (directory "C:/clisp/*/")) 10:46:19 (pushnew (make-pathname :directory (pathname-directory dir) :type "asd") 10:46:21 asdf:*central-registry*)) 10:46:24 put that in your sbclrc 10:46:29 no need for symlinks 10:47:02 -!- Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 10:47:18 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:47:19 OmniMancer: just hold on a bit, let me write a quick 10 minute tutorial that others can use. 10:47:48 Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 10:47:49 aside, I did this the other day. Is it insane? (pathname-name (pathname "foo.txt")) 10:48:07 ayrnieu: it depends on what you expect from the output 10:48:15 and what you're going to do with it 10:48:19 ayrnieu: no. you never know what that will result in 10:48:26 -!- Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 10:48:48 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@117.195.96.55] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:48:51 Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 10:48:51 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:49:18 Krystof, I'm passing the name to make-pathname with :type "txt" :directory "/some/other/one" 10:49:27 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 10:49:28 nipra__ [n=nipra@117.195.98.254] has joined #lisp 10:49:38 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:49:46 I don't use symlinks for ASDF, and instead I add directories to my *central-registry* in my .sbclrc 10:49:46 levy: I have defined this, but it doesn't seem to work: (def (layered-method e) find-filter-type-for-compound-type* ((first (eql 'set)) (type cons)) 't/filter) 10:49:52 for example: (pathname-name (pathname "foo.txt.1")) 10:50:15 -!- Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 10:50:17 kami-, package problem for set 10:50:28 if your FS has versions, the implementation can automatically parse those out, too, without you needing to guess 10:50:35 (:method (first (type cons)) 't/filter) 10:50:36 levy: it's from perec? 10:50:37 -!- danlei [n=user@vpn082.uni-trier.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:50:43 kami-, should be 10:50:48 Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 10:50:51 if asdf worked reletively painlessly it would make many things easier 10:51:00 ayrnieu: that's not defined to work, for several reasons 10:51:13 one is that (pathname-name (pathname "foo.txt")) could quite happily return "foo.txt" 10:51:15 -!- Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 10:51:15 OmniMancer: good thing it works exactly as your OS does 10:51:21 levy: yes. I forgot that I have sldb back :) 10:52:05 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-20.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 10:52:31 OmniMancer: if you want unix-style behaviors, why are you using windows... I just can't figure out what you're trying to achieve 10:52:41 Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 10:52:50 -!- Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 10:52:57 maybe you want cygwin? clisp works under it. 10:53:10 or posix.dll 10:53:26 no cygwin is huge and annoying 10:53:33 p_l: posix isn't a unix environment 10:53:46 OmniMancer: so are you. sigh. 10:55:09 this is a typical windows user conversation. how sad. 10:55:39 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 10:55:40 hmm.. more like libpsx.dll, judging from the filenames in my windows install 10:55:57 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 10:56:09 p_l: posix compatibility functions won't give him anything he wants 10:56:32 he wants a real unix look and feel inside of windows 10:56:45 how do you know what I want? 10:56:46 without being separate from windows. 10:57:00 Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 10:57:01 OmniMancer: because you've been blathering about what you want for hours 10:57:05 rahul: well, SUA does have look&feel of Unix, albeit an old one :D 10:57:05 Just... use unix 10:57:15 "Thank you, sincerely, but now I will seek revenge." /me writes (defpackage :file-name-el ...) 10:57:30 unix doesn't run windows games very well... 10:57:39 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:57:50 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:57:58 OmniMancer: then install some *nix under virtual machine 10:57:59 p_l: heh 10:58:01 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:58:05 Windows doesn't run unix games very well, either! 10:58:12 -!- Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 10:58:30 *p_l* plans to use 2k8r2 under Xen for his gaming 10:58:34 OmniMancer: so you need asdf to load your windows games for you? 10:58:40 *rahul* boggles at OmniMancer's logic 10:59:08 p_l: xen wouldn't work very well for gaming though would it? 10:59:32 OmniMancer: windows doesn't work very well for working in. you're the only one complaining 10:59:33 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 10:59:50 Let's compromise on Genera 10:59:51 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:00:01 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-7-167.vodafone.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 11:00:02 OmniMancer: it will when I reroute gpu to windows instance 11:00:06 you only get the qemu device emulation layer devices if you run windows in xen don't you? 11:00:11 how do I stop SLIME from highligting all calls to ERROR as errors? 11:00:16 Levente [n=Levente@apn-94-44-7-167.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 11:00:29 OmniMancer: I can route PCI devices to different domains 11:00:53 can windows use them 11:00:54 ? 11:00:55 -!- Levente [n=Levente@apn-94-44-7-167.vodafone.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 11:01:06 OmniMancer: it would see them as normal PCI devices, so ye 11:01:08 *yes 11:01:09 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:01:12 Levente_M [n=Levente@apn-94-44-7-167.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 11:01:17 hmmm interesting 11:01:37 when I get a comp with VT-x I will attempt to use xen then 11:02:01 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:02:08 will you stop whinging about how sucky the user experience under windows is, then? 11:02:24 -!- Levente_M [n=Levente@apn-94-44-7-167.vodafone.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 11:02:26 will you stop blathering at me then? 11:02:43 Levente_M [n=Levente@apn-94-44-7-167.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 11:03:23 -!- Levente_M is now known as levente_m 11:03:30 -!- levente_m is now known as levente_meszaros 11:03:36 OmniMancer: you have the power to fix your problems. we don't. your case is so typical of how windows users view computers. 11:03:41 OmniMancer, as of your success with "unix doesn't run windows games very well...", I am a fan and would like to know where you will write about this. 11:05:28 -!- levente_meszaros [n=Levente@apn-94-44-7-167.vodafone.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 11:05:50 levente_m [n=Levente@apn-94-44-7-167.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 11:05:54 ayrnieu: what do you mean? 11:06:00 -!- levente_m [n=Levente@apn-94-44-7-167.vodafone.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 11:06:14 levente_meszaros [n=Levente@apn-94-44-7-167.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 11:06:43 -!- levente_meszaros [n=Levente@apn-94-44-7-167.vodafone.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 11:07:03 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-7-167.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 11:07:06 rahul: reminds me again of what some people claimed was psychological problem with the typical menu-driven GUIs compared to command lines (like in console, CLIM or CAD apps) 11:07:14 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 11:07:49 hunt-and-peck-ism 11:08:00 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-7-167.vodafone.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 11:08:16 rahul: and wishful-thinkink-and-praying-ism ;-) 11:08:19 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-7-167.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 11:08:30 Xof: Is this what you thought would happen? 11:08:31 great for newbies, terrible for people who actually know what they want to do 11:08:54 blender has a nice interface 11:09:00 while command line gives your mind a sense of power, that you're the one giving commands (on lower, internal level let's say) 11:09:11 OmniMancer: True, blender has quite nice interface 11:09:16 in case anybody cares: I have changed my nick from levy to levente_meszaros permanently 11:09:25 p_l, only when you know all the commands! 11:09:35 kami-, levy renamed to levente_meszaros permanently 11:09:57 http://www.computer.org/portal/web/csdl/doi/10.1109/HICSS.2005.264 11:10:04 the only problem with blender is all the newbies complain :( 11:10:07 Jafet: not at all 11:10:33 plage: roughly. I was expecting slightly more of the "no that doesn't work" redefinition of the problem, and slightly less of the windows, but yes 11:10:35 Jafet: commands can be put into menus, too 11:10:39 Unread, but already enormously valuable for the contribution of the expression "perceived ease of use". 11:10:45 Jafet: and commands can be searched for by name 11:10:48 Jafet: people these days aren't taught how to use manuals. I aced all kinds of "tools" lessons just by hitting F1 11:11:16 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:11:22 yep 11:11:28 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:12:16 kami- [n=user@p5B20D9AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:31 Xof, is there any chance you could commit the iso 8859-2 bug to head? our live system has headaches because of that... or at least give me a hint what to change to what... 11:13:33 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 11:13:51 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:13:51 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:13:56 levente_meszaros: you were always lev for me :) 11:13:58 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 11:14:05 attila_lendvai: you are about 3 minutes too late 11:14:14 (wish granted) 11:14:23 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:14:27 Xof, heh, thanks a lot! i owe you another beer! :) 11:14:32 levente_meszaros: if I update wui/integration/perec/factory.lisp to use the new naming conventions, do you think it would work? 11:14:53 levente_meszaros: or am I being too naive? 11:15:42 *rahul* refactoring formulate to make the separation between source and sink more explicit 11:17:54 now, if only it would reach repo.or.cz this century... 11:20:21 kami-, the factory should work, but the other files need more work 11:20:31 kami-, I think the factory is a 5 minutes something 11:21:13 *attila_lendvai* sadly notices that nikodemus is not around #lisp recently 11:21:45 levente_meszaros: then, I'll give it a try 11:21:51 Reaver2 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 11:24:58 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 11:25:16 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:25:45 wow, I'm adding quite a few new classes that separate orthogonal functionality 11:25:48 yippie 11:26:52 kami-, if you can come up with any patch that does not make perec integration worse than it currently is, I'm willing to apply it 11:27:20 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:27:51 levente_meszaros: I MUST come up with a patch, because I have to show something to the customer tomorrow :) 11:28:05 -!- ln5 [n=ln5@212.247.10.33] has left #lisp 11:28:37 my code is becoming beautiful! 11:29:10 (despite the fact that every screen has a few words that are in red text on yellow background) 11:29:33 *deepfire* hates .asd files calling asdf:operate with passion 11:29:44 trivial-features is the latest offender 11:29:55 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 11:30:01 why would it do that? 11:30:34 shouldn't it :depend-on or put an :after method on PERFORM? 11:30:38 http://common-lisp.net/~loliveira/darcs/trivial-features/trivial-features.asd does it to run tests 11:30:54 levente_meszaros: what is the new name of expression-inspector? 11:30:55 I thought that's what asdf:test-op was for 11:31:05 at least, that's what I use it for 11:31:32 kami-, jesus, do you actually use that proof of concept? 11:31:37 well, (defmethod perform ((o test-op) (c (eql (find-system 'trivial-features)))) ...) 11:31:39 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-128-220.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:31:45 kami-, just uncomment anything you don't use and prevents the loading 11:31:58 kami-, that is considered making the integration *better* 11:32:06 at least I know what is completely broken 11:32:28 s/uncomment/comment out/ 11:33:43 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:33:43 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-128-220.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:34:54 ayrnieu: what's wrong with that? 11:35:44 ayrnieu: it's comparable to "make test" 11:35:59 Now, I need to make blackisting exceptions to an otherwise logical algorithm. 11:38:05 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:40:27 (an otherwise logical algorithm of working around another ASDF usage fallacy -- multiple system definitions per file) 11:41:10 rahul - sorry, -tests.asd uses asdf:operate in (eval-when ...) instead of using :depends-on (cffi-tests.asd does the same thing.) 11:41:26 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:41:35 does the author of cl-gtk2 frequent this channel? 11:41:48 ayrnieu: I'm surprised that even works reliably... 11:42:19 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:42:22 (suggested subject line: You people are getting your code in my code-as-data.) 11:43:30 ASau [n=user@host129-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 11:44:33 ayrnieu, it's worser that that -- they make asdf:find-system work other than advertised. 11:45:02 Basically, asdf:find-system turns into asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op 11:45:09 NO WANT 11:45:53 OTOH, this might be an example of a documentation bug in ASDF itself. 11:46:53 The authors might have highlighted the no-side-effects policy of system definitions. 11:47:35 fusss pasted "Multiple Common Lisp Implementations on Win32 + ASDF setup HOWTO" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89718 11:48:03 OmniMancer: there is your tutorial 11:48:29 thanks 11:48:35 Hmm, now that I read find-system's documentation, imperative behaviour is even weakly suggested. 11:48:41 "The user may also wish to (and is recommended to) include defpackage and in-package forms in his system definition files." 11:50:45 Axius [n=ojof@92.85.217.107] has joined #lisp 11:50:50 *deepfire* goes to implement blacklisting instead of whining.. 11:51:50 Just one last note: IMNSHO it is a design bug in ASDF. Makes higher-order tools harder to write. 11:52:30 New link for the Win32 Multiple Lisp Tutorial http://bit.ly/win32-lisps-howto 11:54:43 deepfire: that is so that symbols in the system definiton don't pollute some arbitrary package 11:55:20 no, it isn't 11:55:42 .asd files are already loaded into a scratch package which uses only ASDF and CL 11:55:59 (and gets deleted after the load) 11:56:12 yeah, before that functionality was added... thought this was historical baggage that wasn't deleted 11:57:04 there are circumstances where you do need your own package in an .asd: in particular, when you are extending asdf itself (say by defining a custom component class) 11:57:17 right 11:58:01 and that's the kind of thing where any new symbols would probably come from anyway 11:58:39 aerique, as dmitry_vk , but I don't know if he appears often. 11:59:04 (from any actual code in the .asd file as opposed to declarations) 11:59:05 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2b61.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:01:55 aerique - site:ccl.clozure.com dmitry_vk suggests that he hasn't been around in about a year. So: no. 12:03:53 ayrnieu: thanks 12:03:56 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 12:03:58 aerique: I think he has a livejournal, if mail doesn't work for you 12:04:25 cmm: his blog is on planet lisp iirc, but i'm going to try mail first 12:05:38 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 12:06:55 fuss: i'm not sure c:\.emacs is the default, i've generally seen it end up somewhere in the user's homedirectory which is different for xp, vista and god knows what else. it's always reachable from within emacs at ~/.emacs though 12:07:30 it may or may not be reachable at %home%/.emacs 12:10:03 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:18 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:11:24 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:12:08 expand-file-name: http://cvs.savannah.gnu.org/viewvc/emacs/src/fileio.c?root=emacs&view=markup 12:12:34 setting the home environment variable can have interesting consequences 12:13:39 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:14:17 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:14:28 -!- gaze [n=gaze@ResNet-36-138.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [] 12:14:56 -!- udzinari [n=user@nat/ibm/x-19a80c6a7cfb47bb] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:15:59 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 12:16:54 it's never been c:\emacs for me 12:17:24 that would only make sense on win95 and its illbegotten spawn 12:17:36 Can't be C:\, that's a global dir 12:18:04 Jafet: which is why it would make sense on non-NT windows systems :) 12:18:22 c:\documents and settings\, most probably 12:18:24 Oh, indeed. 12:18:40 I would be mildly surprised if emacs exists for Windows 95 and people use it, though 12:18:42 or do like me and run a small linux in a virtual machine 12:20:03 I've had it in c:\.emacs in the past but that's a long time ago. 12:21:46 it usually ends up in the place where %user% points 12:21:52 fjji [n=ojof@92.82.90.76] has joined #lisp 12:25:36 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.85.217.107] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:26:35 udzinari [n=user@nat/ibm/x-2dce92f89dd33bb4] has joined #lisp 12:28:45 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 m1z0b3 [n=Rodrigo@mail.ltia.fc.unesp.br] has joined #lisp 12:29:34 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:30:47 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:31:11 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 12:37:38 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-30-217.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:40:48 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:41:20 cathy_chang1 [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has joined #lisp 12:41:48 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 12:42:02 -!- cathy_chang1 [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has left #lisp 12:44:30 ln5 [n=ln5@212.247.10.33] has joined #lisp 12:44:42 It's C:\ on my XP, and has been for the last 8 years 12:46:33 colin__ [n=colin@114-44-228-138.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:17 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:47:21 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.212.40] has joined #lisp 12:47:50 levente_meszaros: I have a member type in my package (gender-type) for which find-filter-type-for-type is called, but it is not caught by (:method ((type hu.dwim.perec:member-type)). Is it because the _symbol_ is passed to f-f-t-f-t? 12:48:28 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 12:49:07 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:49:15 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:50:00 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:50:14 kami-, find-type-by-name should return the object for the name 12:51:40 Axius [n=ojof@92.82.67.217] has joined #lisp 12:51:48 levente_meszaros: you mean this method (:method ((type hu.dwim.perec:member-type)) would kick in, call find-type-by-name and then continue with f-f-t-f-t? 12:52:00 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:03 levente_meszaros: sorry, paste error. I meant 12:52:13 levente_meszaros: (:method ((type symbol)) 12:52:19 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.82.67.217] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:52:28 -!- fjji [n=ojof@92.82.90.76] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:52:32 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:53:23 kami-, yes 12:53:43 kami-, there was a kludge in perec integration for find-type-by-name 12:54:16 *kami-* checks 12:55:43 levente_meszaros: Yes. That's it. So, I have to revive the kludges too? :) 12:56:43 ironChicken [n=richard@193.34.28.198] has joined #lisp 12:57:16 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 12:57:36 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:54 kami-, when I get there I will kill those and fine a right solution 12:58:02 s/fine/find 12:58:20 but since you are ahead of me, it's better to revive it 12:58:57 -!- Reaver2 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:59:57 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 13:04:38 _YKY_ [i=YKY@119.237.179.47] has joined #lisp 13:04:57 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:05:10 <_YKY_> How come (exp 1) is 2.7182817? 13:05:30 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 13:05:30 levente_meszaros: should filters for standard-text etc. which are defined in meta-model also go into perec integration? Or is there a better place for them? 13:05:31 <_YKY_> Should be 2.7181828 13:06:52 _YKY_: because that's the accuracy of your floating point unit? 13:06:52 kami-, not now 13:06:54 (exp 1d0) 13:07:09 kami-, but standard-text handling is not special 13:07:11 (using the default float format of your lisp) 13:07:25 or (exp (coerce 1 'double-float)) 13:07:35 there's already a method for hu.dwim.perec:string-type 13:07:39 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp018.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:08:25 _YKY_: floating point numbers are not in base 10. you cannot assume that the rounding will be the same as what you are used to 13:08:33 levente_meszaros: you mean the find-type-by-name re-definition will fix that, anyway? 13:08:54 kami-, i've created a #dwim.hu 13:09:01 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-556977e1c36b5bb8] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:09:26 i'm not sure the general public here is too interested in the internals... :) 13:13:58 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-30-217.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 13:14:31 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.212.40] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:17:09 ziga` [n=user@BSN-142-52-114.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:30 attila_lendvai: at least it is related to CL (unlike some of the discussions which I've followed during the last 2 years on #lisp) 13:17:43 so as a relative newcomer to lisp, would i be better off learning "iterate" over loop? 13:18:14 -!- billitch [n=billitch@dslb-088-075-189-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 13:18:51 billitch [n=billitch@dslb-088-075-189-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:54 do you want to be able to read other peoples' code that uses loop? 13:19:20 Demosthenes, iterate is nicer than loop (not the holy grail, though), but if you spend much time with cl then loop will be needed (they are quite similar) 13:19:21 rahul: loop's just not lispy enough 13:19:36 Demosthenes: loop is one of the most lispy things out there 13:19:38 i suppose for compatibility then i'll stick to loop 13:19:38 Demosthenes: Learn both. 13:19:47 *Xach* has not actually learned both 13:19:48 HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:19:53 thanks 13:19:54 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@s72-38-68-53.static.comm.cgocable.net] has quit ["leaving"] 13:20:21 iterate has one key feature though, (first-time-p) which is badly needed from loop 13:20:39 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:24 Demosthenes: iterate was easier for me to get into & remember and also made loop easier to learn for me (i mostly use loop nowadays) 13:21:47 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-51-198.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:21:55 Who is going to the Lisp meeting tonight? 13:22:51 -!- billitch [n=billitch@dslb-088-075-189-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:25:03 Embrace the dependency. Always use iterate. 13:25:04 Xach: Where? 13:25:18 sellout: Toronto and/or Berlin 13:25:39 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:25:39 Xach: that's quite a distance 13:25:45 Xach: Ah, both a bit too far :) 13:25:50 *lnostdal* has had trouble with iterate .. it did not export "its own keywords" .. this was years ago though; i haven't looked at iterate since then 13:25:59 p_l: true...you should probably choose one or the other. unfortunate scheduling. 13:26:42 heh. call me again when I have better financial reserves (instead of somewhere in imaginary realm) and I'm paid regularly ;-) 13:27:25 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:27:43 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-130.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 13:27:54 G'morning all. 13:29:08 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:42 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:25 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-211.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:31:37 nyef: hiya 13:32:07 Anything interesting going on? 13:33:16 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:26 dunno. I was thinking whether we might see actual solution to asdf repository management and distribution grow out, so many people complain from time to time... 13:34:55 kami-, redefinition should be ok for now 13:38:06 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 13:39:44 p_l: you give windows users too much credit 13:40:05 they don't actually want to fix anything. they just want to complain that no one who uses unix makes tools for them 13:40:49 rahul: *I* still want to sit one day and finish my "lispgems" ;-) 13:42:06 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 13:44:27 -!- thoolihan [n=thooliha@99-157-225-37.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["http://twitter.com/thoolihan"] 13:51:03 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 13:52:57 -!- ln5 [n=ln5@212.247.10.33] has left #lisp 13:53:58 "lispgems" by analogy to the ruby package management system? 13:55:00 Really, the term to abuse if you're going to make a software distribution management system for lisp is "closure". 13:55:10 :D 13:55:14 are there any more spellings? 13:55:18 klozhure 13:55:23 Is cloxure taken? 13:55:23 clozure, clojure, closure, closer 13:55:25 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 13:55:25 Heh. 13:55:43 No, seems to be available. 13:56:39 i prefer clawsure 13:59:17 clogure? 13:59:32 "cludge" 14:00:12 p_l: That seems more a description of the various lisp implementations than the name for a package manager... 14:00:55 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:55 ejs [n=eugen@195-0-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:01 nyef: see? fitting name 14:01:53 (especially since I planned on supporting multiple implementations/installations at the same time) 14:03:59 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:06:28 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:18 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:09:56 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 14:11:33 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-51-198.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:11:46 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has joined #lisp 14:12:46 hello 14:13:03 Hello. 14:13:32 hi nyef 14:14:23 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:16:17 hoy 14:16:43 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-51-198.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:16:47 Guthur_ [n=Michael@host86-136-51-198.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:17:23 -!- Guthur_ [n=Michael@host86-136-51-198.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:17:49 hi cmm 14:19:28 minion: memo for xristos: regarding paste 89710, that's a problem with stack conservativeness. The easiest workaround is probably to spawn a new thread to do the work, second easiest would be to use a malloced buffer and frob it into a lisp unboxed vector. 14:19:28 Remembered. I'll tell xristos when he/she/it next speaks. 14:19:46 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A01CF.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:19:51 what a night of panic 14:20:37 Too bad that deconserving the stack promises to be enough pain that nobody has done it yet. 14:20:53 benny [n=benny@i577A1AC0.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:21:34 Minuscule111 [n=Andromed@cpe-98-150-246-207.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:22:02 I have an ancient domain of mine pointing to a server that i long lost (4+ years ago.) I was trying to see where I parked it, pinged it, and the damn thing responded. My vps for ages ago, still works, promise of hacks rediscovered, my files and mails .. 14:22:19 a frantic night of password guessing followed, nothing worked 14:22:50 then it downed on me, this could as well be a phishing trap, a reverse honeypot 14:23:08 logged in to N other accounts, changed passwords and patters :-( 14:23:14 *Xach* tries to muster interest, fails 14:23:26 meh, never mind then 14:23:48 sellout- [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:33 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-4-92.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 14:26:47 ln5 [n=ln5@212.247.10.33] has joined #lisp 14:27:31 p_l pasted "CLudge, a CL package manager - goal list" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89725 14:28:24 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:28:33 you missed "home page" and "compatibility layers for all the other CL package managers" 14:28:36 Axius [n=ojof@92.84.20.162] has joined #lisp 14:28:51 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 14:29:12 Xof: I'm not planning any compatibility layers 14:29:19 if any, just an API to manage this one :P 14:29:20 which CLX should I use with sbcl? 14:29:35 mine 14:29:52 [ darcs get http://common-lisp.net/~crhodes/clx ] 14:29:58 ziga`: Xof's or mine, probably Xof's. 14:30:04 lol 14:30:06 ok thanks 14:30:24 dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:43 (Mine's in git, and has GLX-related fixes over Xof's, which is upstream and thus may have other changes.) 14:30:54 -!- salva [n=kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:31:04 I've upgraded to Snow Leopard, recompiled sbcl 1.0.32 and now mcclim seems doesn't want to work 14:31:08 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:31:08 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 14:31:19 Backtrace: 14:31:19 0: (SB-BSD-SOCKETS:NAME-SERVICE-ERROR "gethostbyname" NIL) 14:31:19 1: (SB-BSD-SOCKETS::MAKE-HOST-ENT # NIL) 14:31:19 2: (XLIB::OPEN-X-STREAM "tmp/launch-zMDpTe/" 0 #) 14:31:30 my clx has a fix for apple's lameness 14:31:38 I don't know if it's a problem with CLX or sb-bsd-sockets 14:31:43 frode [n=frode@tinnitus.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 14:31:45 it's a problem with Apple's X implementation 14:31:49 -!- frode is now known as frodef 14:31:50 *nyef* makes a mental note to update. 14:32:30 only since June 2008 14:32:47 so, who knows, maybe there's extra brokenness in snow leopard 14:34:28 ziga`: if your clx does not have a #+darwin clause in unix-socket-path-from-host, it is too old 14:34:32 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.196.35] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:34:47 cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 14:35:14 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:35:51 thoolihan [n=thooliha@207.54.160.73] has joined #lisp 14:36:52 Xof: I've tried with yours - now I don't get an error and looks like the app is running from slime, but there is no window ! strange.. 14:37:38 Xof: previously I had the 0.7.3 that's donwloadable from the website 14:37:59 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:38:12 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.196.35] has joined #lisp 14:38:35 Xof: I'll try with a smaller clx demo, not mcclim 14:39:26 Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 14:41:39 meh annotated #89718 "more convenience" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89718#1 14:42:00 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-30-217.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:42:30 nyef: what was the issue with unwinds again? 14:42:44 pkhuong: In what context? 14:42:46 -!- ejs [n=eugen@195-0-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:43:42 for GC conservativeness. Let's say we could handle normal stack frames exactly (and let's ignore dx alloc for now). 14:44:02 ibnby [n=ibnby@f049084027.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:44:13 s/normal // 14:46:12 I'm not sure there's an issue there, beyond the whole thing about having a vector of values being returned held in stack space sortof in limbo. 14:46:25 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:46:36 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo4.186.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:46:53 nyef: that's the reason we don't just cut gcing at SP, right? I guess that vector could be stuck in a special too... 14:47:38 How do you mean "don't just cut gcing at SP"? 14:48:38 We always scan the whole stack for pages to pin, iirc. 14:48:40 -!- thoolihan [n=thooliha@207.54.160.73] has quit ["http://twitter.com/thoolihan"] 14:49:00 thoolihan [n=thooliha@207.54.160.73] has joined #lisp 14:49:37 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.168] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:49:45 We scan from some notion of the base of the stack to just about where the stack frames for the GC itself start. 14:49:54 hm clx demos don't work 14:50:06 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 14:50:50 ziga`: Kill your fasls, start a fresh lisp instance, and try again? Failing that, bughunt time. 14:51:07 -!- thoolihan [n=thooliha@207.54.160.73] has quit [Client Quit] 14:51:21 thoolihan [n=thooliha@207.54.160.73] has joined #lisp 14:51:43 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@114-45-233-227.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:52:07 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 14:52:14 nyef: ok I'll try 14:53:38 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.84.20.162] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:53:43 nyef: so really, zeroing out unused stack slots on entry would be almost enough. 14:53:50 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:54:26 -!- Minuscule111 [n=Andromed@cpe-98-150-246-207.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:57:59 nyef: xclclock worked! but when I closed it I got an error and it won't run again now 14:58:09 Couldn't write to #: 14:58:09 Broken pipe 14:58:09 [Condition of type SB-INT:SIMPLE-STREAM-ERROR] 14:59:00 zig1`, it'd be nicer and more useful if you pasted a more complete backtrace via lisppaste, I think. 14:59:07 ziga`, sorry. 14:59:26 coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has joined #lisp 15:00:57 ziga` pasted "xclclock" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89728 15:01:04 Odin- [n=sbkhh@ag-d116.rhi.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:01:40 this comes up when I close it 15:03:32 so don't do that 15:03:38 :D 15:03:38 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-4-92.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:05:19 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:28 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:12:23 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 15:14:31 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:21:14 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:21:40 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ip-215-50.sn1.eutelia.it] has joined #lisp 15:23:59 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ip-215-50.sn1.eutelia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 15:24:17 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has joined #lisp 15:27:29 huh, i'm getting "The value NIL is not of type SB-KERNEL:LAYOUT" when compiling a defclass form .. 15:28:06 Might sound like a stupid or inapropriate question maybe.. but anyway, In your opinion what is the age of an avarege lisper? 15:28:30 thirty something? 15:28:33 i forgot 15:29:08 not 50? :D 15:29:09 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:10 no lisper would call himself average, anyway 15:29:15 udzinari: there are fairly old outliers who'll easily pull the average in the thirties. 15:29:17 right? 15:29:17 the average lisper has probably spent a few years slamming his head vs. java or c++ 15:29:18 we beat the averages. violently. 15:29:30 cmm: I didn't mean the skill D: 15:29:37 with a stick 15:29:46 ask Kazimir Majorinc to do a poll 15:29:47 Oh average lisper, on the other hand. That's quite another beast. Define what makes a lisper average and we might be able to design an experiment. 15:30:09 udzinari: I think the discussion level is exactly appropriate to the question :) 15:30:16 cmm: :D 15:30:28 does it say what's an average lisper in the spec? if not, it's an implementation-specific issue 15:30:46 cltl3 shoud define it :D 15:30:52 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-130.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:30:56 s/shoud/should 15:31:36 In the end I formulated the question the wrong way.. 15:31:37 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-130.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:32:24 I meant, what do you think is the avarege age of people programming lisp.. 15:32:37 in common lisp in particular 15:32:48 there is no such thing as the average lisper. 15:32:51 s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-228-154.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:51 udzinari: we knew what you meant :) 15:33:00 what would you do with this number? 15:33:10 except for the fact that he/she (probably) prefers s-exp notation. 15:33:28 -!- ln5 [n=ln5@212.247.10.33] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:34:05 -!- ASau [n=user@host129-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 15:34:05 udzinari: I'd guess somewhere around 30 15:34:07 stassats, sell to the marketing agencies! 15:34:13 tic: there is however an average age of lispers. 15:34:38 stassats: I would compare it to some other numbers via some imensely uncomplicated functions :) 15:37:06 knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has joined #lisp 15:38:22 pkhuong, now that's a quantifyable number! 15:38:29 (quantifiable?) 15:40:41 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:41:09 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:10 30 .. kind of strange 15:41:16 and the fact that lispers tend to answer most questions with a moral equivalent of "why do you ask" raises interesting possibilities as to their average, ah, cultural heritage. or something 15:41:33 ln5 [n=ln5@212.247.10.33] has joined #lisp 15:41:38 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:42:43 and you think most of them likely started in some other place and then moved to cl? 15:42:57 -!- rsynnott1 [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:43:45 -!- stroan [i=stroan@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:43:46 -!- ln5 [n=ln5@212.247.10.33] has quit [Client Quit] 15:44:19 cmm: I like to ask that question "why?" to my students all the time. sometimes I write it on the board with big bold letters and just point to it 15:45:37 udzinari: also, it depends on how wide you cast your net... including AutoLISP would blow your stats to hell 15:47:08 Are you including the people with the speech impairment? 15:47:33 p_l: you mean (* 30 2) or (/ 30 2) :D 15:48:29 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:49:09 udzinari: I also heard that there are some lurking lispers hidden in gamedev, using small lisps to do internal scripting 15:49:46 (actually, a handbook on game AI even suggested Scheme outright, along with Lua and Python) 15:50:17 dv___ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 15:50:23 lnostdal: if you can reproduce and reduce that, I'd like a bug report 15:51:16 Xof, ok 15:51:55 it's a mess currently .. i've been moving too much stuff around in one go .. so yeah, i'm not sure what's triggering it 15:52:37 do you think there are very few young people programming lisp these days? (by young I mean < 25) 15:53:51 udzinari: no 15:54:03 -!- m1z0b3 [n=Rodrigo@mail.ltia.fc.unesp.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:54:10 udzinari: no, it's just that there is enough people to pull the age higher 15:54:41 udzinari, hard to tell. Some anecdotal evidence on the age distribution can be obtained from http://www.cliki.net/YoungLispers and http://wiki.alu.org/The_Road_to_Lisp_Survey 15:54:45 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 15:55:06 udzinari: there's lots of young lispers, and there's groups of us getting pretty busy with hacking :) 15:55:28 there's been what seems to be a growing lisp culture back in my alma mater, since I left. 15:55:36 *udzinari* is following links.. very interesting 15:57:21 Come to think of it, I should leave an entry somewhere there.. 15:57:23 It would be hard for all these newbies to get work! They're running up against the old fogey with 50 years experience. It's easier with Ruby. 15:57:51 Jafet: that's so bogus :P 15:58:07 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 15:58:27 I thought we were all being bogus for the past ten minutes 15:58:43 *Jafet* scrolls 15:58:45 bogon levels rising. 15:58:46 Or thirty. 15:58:51 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-206.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:59:15 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-128-220.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:59:22 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:00:05 udzinari: I think introducing Lisp as a cool language to young students is a fantastic idea. Specially those that don't have that much experiences with other languages. I got into it because of a really enthusiastic friend that kept telling me about it, and it's basically the first language I really learned. 16:00:34 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:51 sykopomp, does your friend IRC here? 16:01:17 deepfire: yes. 16:01:23 deepfire: mogunus <-- 16:01:46 *deepfire* waves to mogunus 16:01:49 ianmcorvidae is also from my school. We went a couple of times to the boston lisp meeting. 16:03:41 *Xach* remembers ianmcorvidae at ILC mostly for his sleeping in the auditorium during presentations 16:03:58 hah :D 16:04:28 -!- Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has left #lisp 16:05:00 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:05 Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 16:06:17 -!- poet [n=poet@unaffiliated/poet] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:06:22 -!- Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:06:26 egomosis [n=egomosis@58.20.34.95] has joined #lisp 16:06:27 -!- egomosis [n=egomosis@58.20.34.95] has quit [Client Quit] 16:06:38 Xach, enough with character assassinations! 16:07:18 ryepup1 [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 16:07:32 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 16:07:39 sykopomp: I agree hundred percent. I wish lisp was the first language I myself learned (not that I "learned" it yet) 16:09:30 it's interesting, because I've learned a lot of concepts that people usually jump between languages to learn, without switching languages. It's been pretty easy to look at other languages and grok them, and I feel like I have a really nice perspective on the concepts. 16:10:50 it's easy to get confused about what parts are the concept, and what parts are just quirks about the language, when you learn a new language to learn a concept. 16:11:05 *deepfire* fails to concentrate on work 16:11:14 *sykopomp* is still being productive. 16:12:08 -!- fihi09` [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:12:11 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:12:35 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:13:07 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 16:14:38 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 16:15:42 fihi09 [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:50 billitch [n=billitch@82.113.106.198] has joined #lisp 16:17:05 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:17:12 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 16:17:23 Ok, maybe my character-assassination joke was a little overboard, sorry Xach :-) 16:19:27 -!- Raptelan [n=Raptelan@99-138-48-236.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:19:36 Raptelan [n=Raptelan@99-138-48-236.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:51 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:21:15 ln5 [n=ln5@h129n7c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 16:21:52 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 16:22:54 Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 16:23:04 -!- ln5 [n=ln5@h129n7c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:23:11 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:23:29 *Xach* removes the chicago lisp meeting from the calendar 16:25:42 billitch_ [n=billitch@82.113.106.198] has joined #lisp 16:25:55 -!- billitch [n=billitch@82.113.106.198] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:25:55 -!- billitch_ is now known as billitch 16:25:57 Xach: it died? :( 16:26:16 sykopomp: as far as i know it hasn't happened in quite a while. some of the organizers, from what i can tell, got tired of Lisp. 16:27:03 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:27:14 -!- Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 16:27:18 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-51-198.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 16:32:18 Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 16:32:26 -!- Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 16:32:39 Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 16:32:47 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:33:29 -!- Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 16:33:33 Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 16:34:41 and when one is tired of lisp... 16:34:49 aking [n=aking@67.23.13.119] has joined #lisp 16:35:14 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@ag-d116.rhi.hi.is] has quit [] 16:35:57 ...time to die 16:36:05 milanj [n=milan@77.46.219.241] has joined #lisp 16:36:08 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:36:39 drgnvale [n=acristin@209.16.73.144] has joined #lisp 16:36:45 I think setenv DISPLAY :0 solved my problem, looks like it works OK now.. 16:36:54 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.196.35] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:37:18 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:39:09 billitch_ [n=billitch@82.113.106.198] has joined #lisp 16:40:13 -!- billitch [n=billitch@82.113.106.198] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:40:14 -!- billitch_ is now known as billitch 16:42:42 why do we convert single floats to double floats, then perform exp, log, sqrt, etc, and back to singles? 16:43:46 because nobody uses single floats? 16:44:08 ziga`: interesting assertion. In the meantime, avoiding double rounding would be nice. 16:44:28 *_3b* uses single floats almost exclusively 16:44:43 _3b: for what? 16:44:51 ok, opengl uses single floats 16:44:55 <_3b> pkhuong: was there ever any resolution to that osx cl-glut stuff? 16:45:09 <_3b> ziga`: right, 3d graphics in general 16:45:15 _3b: the main loop hack doesn't work. On SBCL, I just have to run the stuff from the initial thread. 16:45:55 did anyone use cl-objc sucessfully 16:46:16 <_3b> so is that something cl-glut could do, or does it just need started specially? 16:46:58 it just needs not to do anything special. The user has to be aware that things will crash if he loads or uses cl-glut from anything but the main thread. On CCL, you're screwed. 16:47:07 pkhuong: probably because {exp,log,sqrt,etc.}f are relatively new additions to C? 16:47:39 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 16:47:54 <_3b> any idea if it is possible to detect being run from a bad thread? 16:48:23 -!- dv___ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Client Quit] 16:48:26 _3b: Sure! Use a thread-local special binding. 16:48:31 <_3b> or detect that particular version of osx for that matter? 16:49:03 <_3b> nyef: i mean in from cl-glut's perspective... it can't set the special if it doesn't know if the thread is OK or not 16:49:19 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:49:22 froydnj: right. Are those old enough now? 16:49:30 _3b: Which threads are "OK" from the get-go? 16:49:40 nyef: only thread #0. 16:49:47 The special "main" thread. 16:50:18 So, you "just" need to be able to figure out which thread on *all-threads* was the first one? 16:50:19 _3b: but then again even loading the library from anything but the main thread will die (during dlopen even, iirc). 16:50:20 pkhuong: dunno. I guess we could cut people off; linux ports would be ok, but I don't know about solaris/darwin/*bsd 16:50:38 froydnj: ok on darwin and fbsd, probably other bsds. 16:50:56 pkhuong: alternately, introduce #!+has-native-float-math 16:51:18 froydnj: right. 16:56:32 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:00:09 -!- billitch [n=billitch@82.113.106.198] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:01:14 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:04:27 incidentally, who admins sbcl-commits? I suspect trittweiler's sf id needs to be permitted to post 17:04:38 (answers of the form "you admin sbcl-commits" not gratefully received) 17:05:50 no really, don't you? 17:06:11 sourceforce says: crhodes, demoss, jsnell, wnewman. 17:06:24 damn 17:08:18 who both admins sbcl-commits and has the faintest clue what their password is? 17:09:07 can't you restore it? 17:09:08 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 17:09:10 https://sourceforge.net/account/registration/recover.php 17:09:10 -!- nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:09:18 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:10:22 _3b: regarding cl-opengl, i can send you a patch that removes the thread stuff 17:10:22 xristos, memo from pkhuong: regarding paste 89710, that's a problem with stack conservativeness. The easiest workaround is probably to spawn a new thread to do the work, second easiest would be to use a malloced buffer and frob it into a lisp unboxed vector. 17:10:22 -!- Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit ["leaving"] 17:10:37 pkhuong: thanks 17:11:20 <_3b> xristos: would that actually fix things, or just simplify the code sine it doesn't work anyway? 17:11:37 foom: I know my sourceforge password 17:11:52 it would remove code that's unnecessary 17:11:53 the lists are Mailman, each with their own password 17:12:04 _3b: fix? The problem is on apple's end. 17:12:07 fortunately https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sbcl-commits tells me that I'm off the hook 17:12:18 oh. SF doesn't even have single-sign-on? man. 17:12:19 <_3b> pkhuong: ok, 'work around' then :) 17:12:25 cl-glut will work fine on sbcl from the initial thread 17:12:34 but it won't work on ccl unless they come up with something 17:12:38 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:13:28 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:17:28 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:36 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has quit ["Valete!"] 17:18:53 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:04 -!- rlb3 [n=robert@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:24:51 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 17:25:07 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 17:25:27 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:39 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined 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#lisp 18:18:39 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:20:08 c|mell [n=cmell@85.132.57.2] has joined #lisp 18:20:21 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:20:25 i'm having trouble with defconstant of string value 18:20:26 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 18:20:52 the contents of the string is the same but i get a warning because lisp equality is not preserved 18:21:05 <_3b> billitch: try alexandria:define-constant instead 18:21:28 (eq "hello" "hello") => NIL yeah, use alexandria:define-constant with a #'string= for :test 18:21:55 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 18:22:01 Good evening. 18:22:38 ln5 [n=ln5@h129n7c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 18:23:03 nha [n=prefect@31-174.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:23:36 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:05 Joreji [n=thomas@45-223.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:24:35 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:24:48 lnostdal: rather EQL 18:25:04 -!- ln5 [n=ln5@h129n7c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:25:25 and do you really need string to be a constant? 18:25:48 eql doesn't work for strings 18:26:05 who said it does? (though, it does work) 18:26:24 -!- deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:26:31 i don't know what you/he wants .. no, it doesn't always work 18:26:37 i gotta get back to emacs 18:27:04 thanks _3b and lnostdal , but is there a nice way to do it in plain common lisp ? 18:27:09 eql works on everything, differently than string=, but works 18:27:38 it should be a constant and i only need it to be a sequence 18:27:47 lnostdal: and my EQL remark was abut defconstant using EQL, not EQ 18:28:27 billitch: "should be"? 18:28:33 billitch, here's the plain CL: http://common-lisp.net/project/alexandria/darcs/alexandria/definitions.lisp 18:29:06 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@45-223.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 18:29:10 Joreji [n=thomas@45-223.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:29:13 piso [n=peter@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:29 ayrnieu: thanks 18:29:44 rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:29:54 ugh, whatever .. eql doesn't work for strings, either 18:30:00 stassats: yes it should not change during execution, but i can defvar if needed.. 18:30:09 *lnostdal* throws a shoe at clos 18:30:28 it's just not really a "var" 18:30:37 billitch: well, just don't change it 18:30:50 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has left #lisp 18:33:07 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:33:22 r0bby_ [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 18:35:17 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:35:38 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:37:00 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:46 deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 18:43:49 i've resolved to using a 3-liner define-constant 18:43:54 billitch pasted "minimal define-constant" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89739 18:46:16 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.204.211] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:49:55 billitch: see also http://l1sp.org/sbcl/defconstant 18:49:56 Shamwow [n=eshamay@richmondlab-cl7.uoregon.edu] has joined #lisp 18:51:01 -!- sellout [n=greg@pool-141-157-182-132.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 18:51:08 Hello all - Question Re: defgeneric - Must I write a defgeneric if I'm going to implement a defmethod or can I skip using the defgeneric for my methods? I don't see the reasoning behind using defgeneric as all my methods seem to work without it. 18:51:38 Without a defgeneric, a defmethod implies a defgeneric. 18:51:43 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 18:52:27 Zhivago: is that to say that w/o explicitly writing a defgeneric, one is created for me? 18:53:05 shamwow: defgeneric lets you add a docstring. But yeah, it is automagically created. 18:53:18 -!- Guest40508 is now known as schmx 18:53:20 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:53:29 nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:47 Guest40508: Is a docstring the only added benefit? Is there a time one would want to write a defgeneric otherwise? 18:54:11 Shamwow: I can't think of any other reason 18:55:04 Would you say that it's idiomatic to write one or to go without it? 18:55:16 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 18:55:31 Shamwow: I like to keep comments around the defgeneric. Makes it easier for me to read my code later on when I don't remember what I was doing. 18:55:31 It's idiomatic to write one. 18:56:25 you can also define the generic and some methods with (defgeneric foo (bar) (:method (bar) ...)) 18:56:59 shamwow: I recommend using defgeneric, however -- put all of the defgenerics for a protocol together as a form of documentation. 18:57:09 Xach: Supposing I have class A and class B defined in two separate files and both have methods (defmethod name (...) ...), Where is the preferred place to write out the (defgeneric name (...)...)? 18:57:25 <_3b> the defgeneric has methods, not the classes 18:57:37 Shamwow, I write it before either classes 18:57:41 Shamwow: i prefer to define the generic function protocol primarily. 18:57:51 Shamwow: then the classes participate in implementing the protocol. 18:58:01 Shamwow, maybe put all your defgeneric in their own file, early in the build 18:58:25 "it depends" ;) 18:58:45 Xach: I'm a bit confused by what you mean on writing out a protocol... 18:59:11 Fare: So write a separate "header" file containing the generics? 18:59:27 Shamwow: i like to design the set of functions that are important to the programmer's interface to whatever functionality I want to provide. 18:59:35 I'm still really new to the notion of generic methods as an object model... 18:59:47 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:48 Shamwow: those functions make up the function call protocol that hopefully has some useful functionality 18:59:49 Shamwow, yup 18:59:58 -!- rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:00:15 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 19:00:16 rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:00:21 Xach: I see. So first think through the functionality I'd like to interact with, then design classes to take part in that? 19:00:22 Shamwow: when i do clos i concentrate on the generic functions instead of classes 19:00:24 I'd put defgenerics, abstract classes, and macros all in their header files. 19:00:28 shamwow: Think of a protocol as being a group of operations (i.e., generic functions). 19:00:28 Shamwow: right. 19:00:33 i also tend to export functions and not export classes at all 19:00:47 shamwow: That will also help in extending something since you'll be able to see what all of the operations are, together. 19:00:48 xristos: that's also a lot easier :) 19:00:59 xristos: That's a twist I hadn't thought of :) 19:01:02 I find it pretty hard to figure out the best way to make my classes user-extensible and fully documented. 19:01:36 Axius [n=ojof@92.85.211.151] has joined #lisp 19:01:54 same for me 19:02:47 Shamwow: CLOS itself implements a protocol of generic functions that work together, and the classes that participate. 19:03:08 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@85.132.57.2] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:03:12 make-instance, initialize-instance, update-instance-for-redefined-class, change-class, etc, etc, etc 19:04:12 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:24 It's starting to sound like instead of coming up with object "header" files that describe my objects, the idea is to come up with an interface to perform a group of related tasks, and group those into a given "header" where I place the defgenerics and the necessary classes..? 19:04:51 Shamwow: you can group according to functionality 19:05:12 perhaps I need a more concrete example :^) 19:06:28 well i think of units, i group my classes & methods in terms of what they do 19:06:36 this is enjoyable how CLOS twists ones previous experience of OO in a new direction 19:06:38 so if they all work on the same thing, i put them together int he same file 19:06:55 schmx: That's why I'm so intrigued by it! 19:07:08 shamwow: You can do what I do and just put everything wherever and have an unreadable mess 19:07:18 closed source by obscurity, I call it 19:08:03 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-207-68.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:17 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:08:37 xristos: How about this hypothetical: working with shapes I need to be able to get their area, position, and rotate them. So I'd group the defgenerics for area, position, and rotation within one file, and then my defclasses and defmethods for different shapes in each of their own files? 19:09:00 Shamwow: http://xach.com/lisp/salza2/ is a library I wrote that has exported generic functions and classes. 19:09:04 schmx: That's where I started with my c programming, I'm trying to get a clean start with lisp :_) 19:09:16 fjji [n=ojof@92.84.1.195] has joined #lisp 19:09:19 Shamwow: you could do that, or have a file called shapes.lisp with different sections in the file, or some other scheme. 19:10:10 Xach: There's no idiomatic way, just preference...? I suppose some natural grouping will come to mind after enough coding 19:10:25 shamwow: Seems a good concrete example to focus more on the functions than the actual classes, imo :) 19:10:35 Shamwow: I haven't seen a hard-and-fast most-people-do-it style for organizing files. 19:10:45 schmx: That's what I'm finding too 19:10:47 things become confusing (to read) when you have a generic function and lots of specialized methods that do different things for widely different parts of your codebase 19:10:49 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 19:11:01 especially with inheritance thrown in 19:11:12 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-207-68.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:11:24 shamwow: organizing in files is.. not so much an issue as in maybe C or some such. One just uses SLIME magic to look stuff up anyway :) 19:11:28 there i tend to have docstrings for every method 19:11:31 as well as the generic function 19:11:34 Shamwow: the only convention i can think of at the moment is putting your package definition in a file called package.lisp 19:11:58 oh, http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html is something i wrote a while ago about the topic, too... 19:12:06 that's more about asdf than file organization, though 19:12:16 xristos: That's where it seems like grouping functionality would help clear up the headache 19:12:43 hm, interesting gcc bug: "call *%esp shouldn't be generated because of CPU errata" 19:12:54 yeah well you still can get yourself in a OO mess 19:12:59 Xach: thanks for the link! That's helpful 19:13:02 clos gives you plenty of rope to hang yourself 19:13:08 xristos: hah :) 19:14:05 i mean things would be better with robust interactive method browsers 19:14:12 -!- rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:14:12 at least slime has some things that help 19:14:33 schmx: I've been wrestling with SLIME for weeks and still get stuck with weird hangs or strange errors that I'm sure have a one-key-press solution that I haven't figured out yet 19:14:42 I was trying some OO browser in the emacs.. it was kinda shit 19:14:51 Shamwow: what implementation are you using? 19:15:10 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 19:15:20 oobrowse. that was it 19:15:43 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:15:57 Xach: sbcl 19:16:01 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 19:16:54 Shamwow: hmm, "q" is the universal escape hatch from the debugger, usually. sbcl is pretty well-supported by slime in general. 19:16:57 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 19:18:08 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.212.97] has joined #lisp 19:18:17 Shamwow: what type of weird hangs and errors? 19:18:34 Xach: I've come a long way with it, and debugging is getting easier. I've got a couple problems compounding, though - 7 years of vim use, and now I'm learning emacs, and 10 years of C++ and now trying to learn lisp... add slime, lisp packages, and that's where my headache starts :) 19:18:52 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:19:08 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-220-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:15 10 yars of C++. You might have braindamage for the rest of your life :( 19:19:40 10 years! you don't look that old. 19:19:46 schmx: The latest problem - I've used C-c C-k to compile and load the file, then I C-c C-z to get to the REPL and try one of my functions only to have it say that the function is undefined... so I go back to the code and C-c C-c on each function I need to load, and then it works... 19:19:52 Osaka [n=yuki@fl-71-3-72-40.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:08 schmx: hah! it's a sure thing 19:20:16 Shamwow: if you have a defpackage/inpackage in your file 19:20:26 make sure you are using that package in the repl 19:20:29 Xach: maybe it's old pictures :) 19:20:50 xristos: do I do that with an (in-package)? 19:20:58 yes 19:21:29 slime has interactive command you can use to change package too 19:21:37 with ,in 19:21:48 or C-c M-p 19:22:08 xristos: the method, starting from initial SLIME execution - 1) compile and load the file with C-c C-k, then 2) get to the REPL and (inpackage ...) whichever package I'm trying to use? 19:22:10 or just C-c ~ in the lisp buffer to synchronize packages 19:22:44 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-36.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 19:22:53 Shamwow: that will do for a start but you want to look into asdf 19:23:09 xristos: that's next on my list 19:23:38 -!- thoolihan [n=thooliha@207.54.160.73] has quit ["http://twitter.com/thoolihan"] 19:24:52 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.85.211.151] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:25:02 Xof, anything in particular is should look for or focus on? .. i have a custom meta-class, custom dslotd classes and custom eslotd classes ... *sigh* 19:25:15 there's just too much "stuff" 19:25:36 stassats: I'm still confused on setting up package information in my code 19:25:39 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:07 -!- fjji [n=ojof@92.84.1.195] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:26:15 if you don't have package information in your code, then you are doing something else wrong 19:26:23 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:26:41 stassats: agreed! 19:27:05 Shamwow: read xach's post or download some of his libraries and see how he does packaging 19:27:14 it's the same pattern everywhere 19:27:37 redline6561 [n=redline@70-46-22-87.atl.fdn.com] has joined #lisp 19:27:39 also, see http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ Chapter 21 19:27:42 xristos: I just fired up the post a second ago :) 19:28:07 cvandusen: yes, that's been really helpful so far but I'm still soaking it all in 19:28:17 me too :) 19:29:37 I read through the first 28 chapters in a week, then reread the first 15 or so again... and now I'm just trying to code a few small projects I have lying around in order to actually put it to use 19:30:51 You mean the CD database was not useful enough? :O 19:31:15 Same here, although I read it a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, real work takes up a majority of time 19:31:46 Axius [n=ojof@92.84.1.195] has joined #lisp 19:31:48 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:31:53 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 19:32:30 schmx: I got to the libraries for id3 tags and decided I should just put the book down, breathe, and go startup an emacs session 19:34:05 cvandusen: I'm working on getting 1.5 seconds out of every clock-second in order to have time for reading and coding these things 19:35:55 pfeyz [n=user@146.95.33.107] has joined #lisp 19:36:55 poet [n=poet@unaffiliated/poet] has joined #lisp 19:37:40 foom, whoa. Is that erratum from a recent CPU? 19:38:36 so that means you instead have to mov edi, [esp] ; call edi ? 19:38:44 shamwow: well happy lisping :) 19:39:01 Fare: no, old ones. Pentium Pro, 2, and 3. 19:39:09 but the bug was only recently reported, strangely enough! 19:39:10 for some definition of old 19:39:11 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:39 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-58-250.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:41:52 thoolihan [n=thooliha@207.54.160.73] has joined #lisp 19:42:04 schmx: thanks! 19:42:07 it's a whole CPU architecture ago! 19:42:30 not just a former generation, a former dynasty 19:42:44 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:42:46 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.215.211] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 19:43:03 -!- ziga` [n=user@BSN-142-52-114.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:43:26 actually, 2 archs back 19:47:34 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 19:48:08 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@70-46-22-87.atl.fdn.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:55:15 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:55:45 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:44 -!- pfeyz [n=user@146.95.33.107] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:58:16 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.196.35] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:58:31 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 19:58:40 which implementations implement CDR5? 19:59:26 minion: cdr? 19:59:27 cdr: The Common Lisp Document Repository is hosted at http://cdr.eurolisp.org. http://www.cliki.net/cdr 20:00:32 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 20:01:01 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Client Quit] 20:01:33 Hey Xach. 20:01:36 hello gigamonkey 20:01:39 pkhuong: I think exp, log uses double floats because that's all the C functions used to support. 20:01:39 rtoym, memo from pkhuong: usually, the fact that scalar operations leave the upper bits unchanged doesn't affect us (SSE is after all 2-operand), but that's not true for conversion operations. That's a fresh bug for us. Code review time (: 20:02:25 You've noticed this before in the image search results but try just doing a regular google search for Peter Seibel 20:02:28 It's amusing. 20:03:00 nice. it's like "the evolution of gigamonkey" 20:03:01 gigamonkey, I was going to say your book is more inspiring than enlightening 20:03:12 Fare: which? Coders? 20:03:15 gigamonkey, but after all, I think it is enlightening, albeit subtly 20:03:19 yes 20:03:41 haven't finished it yet, so it might be that latter parts have more new stuff for me 20:03:57 Yeah. I've been thinking about that a bit. I suspect a lot of people, including me, were hoping from some big insight that would boom! show the way to become a genius. But that's not how it works. 20:04:09 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 20:04:38 it's easy to become a genius! 20:04:46 1- choose parents who'll give you good genes 20:04:47 2- be born 20:05:03 3- survive 20:05:16 4- don't have your development retarded by modern 'schooling'. 20:05:42 *stassats* had a good laugh from this google result 20:05:53 3.1: have those parents support you in your learning and explanation 20:06:37 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:06:40 i chose parentheses instead 20:07:09 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:07:20 ayrnieu, I like the Karl Hess solution to that 20:07:33 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 20:08:25 hmm, a photo of me doesn't appear in the google image results until #15 20:08:31 and rich hickey is #2 for me! 20:08:56 Fare - http://www.amazon.com/Capitalism-Kids-Growing-Your-Boss/dp/0942617355 ? 20:09:02 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:09:21 search for school here -- or better, read the whole thing... http://fare.tunes.org/books/Hess/from_far_right_to_far_left.html 20:09:37 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:09:46 Xach: Is this you? http://photo.net/shared/portrait-bits.tcl?user_id=50028 20:09:50 thanks 20:10:09 Xach: I'm still #1, but there's some high school photographer kid who stole my name, so I probably don't have very long. 20:10:18 gigamonkey: yep 20:10:21 minion: memo for pkhoung: I tried calling the single-float special functions many years ago. They were significantly slower than the double-float. (On sparc, I think.) Perhaps that's changed now. But maybe they all use the special x87 instructions so it doesn't matter so much. 20:10:21 Remembered. I'll tell pkhoung when he/she/it next speaks. 20:10:42 Karl Hess is photo #5 when looking for me on google images! 20:10:43 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.84.1.195] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:10:53 and a pin-up is #3 20:11:24 gigamonkey: not much like me at the moment, though. 20:12:14 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.212.97] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:13:07 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:13:24 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-2-190.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:13:44 Fare: search by which name? :) 20:13:45 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 20:13:52 rahul: Francois-Rene Rideau 20:15:18 people on the internets probably call you Fare more often 20:16:15 people on the internet don't often call me 20:16:21 but then again, once in a while, they do! 20:16:23 although the fully accented version of your name is automatically suggested as a completion 20:16:28 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-20.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:16:58 -!- ibnby [n=ibnby@f049084027.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:17:04 the pin-up is from lemonodor 20:17:08 hello 20:17:14 rahul: don't spoil it for everyone! 20:17:19 so it is ostensibly you 20:18:12 indeed, the next word on the page is your name, so this clearly is a photo of you! 20:18:29 -!- pjb` [n=t@85-169-61-208.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:19:07 Fare: Doesn't work for the Vietnamese, though ;) 20:19:27 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:38 pjb [n=t@85-169-61-208.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 20:20:55 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:00 marioxcc [n=user@201.132.136.22] has joined #lisp 20:23:28 Post republican beard. 20:25:37 http://images.google.com/images?q=republican%20beard 20:26:29 #13 with my vietnamese name is not too bad... ng-V Bān 20:26:44 Vonunov: it needs to be post-republican beard. 20:27:07 though I like #30 20:27:08 redblue [i=star@ppp081.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:28:57 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-17-97.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:30:06 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.184.64] has joined #lisp 20:30:38 Oh, okay. :P 20:31:17 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:31:36 minion: forget my memos 20:31:37 You didn't have any memos! 20:32:17 rtoym: It's more that calling specific single float version is the right thing, and that it lets us use sqrtss ;) 20:32:54 Go The Right Thing! 20:33:12 (poor pkhuong; his nick, so mipsslet 20:33:49 and almost always available for tab completion too. 20:34:08 where do unread memos go? 20:34:18 Maybe they go to the moon? 20:38:36 m314 [n=user@87.63.34.66] has joined #lisp 20:41:27 -!- schmx [n=traveler@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 20:42:00 Okay, so what the #$%@#$ did System76 do to this notebook that made it so damn slow. After a fresh vanilla install it's nice and snappy. 20:43:35 System 7.6? Is that an antique Mac? 20:43:44 Fare: a company 20:44:40 ah, they're the ones that sold me the Mac Mini that died after a few months. 20:44:49 Or is it really possible that Ubuntu 9.10 is that much better than 9.04? 20:45:03 ayrnieu: really? I thought they only sold Linux boxes. 20:45:05 gigamonkey: as long as you don't work with large files, perhaps 20:45:07 gigamonkey: I heard mixed opinions about new ubuntu 20:45:26 what'd they break for large files? 20:45:54 ah, they're the ones that sold me the !Mac Mini that died after a few months. It doesn't seem that they sell it anymore. 20:46:01 foom: filesystem configuration 20:46:14 Re: 9.10: lots of people reporting that it doesn't boot, firefox loses toolbars, autofs doesn't come up properly on boot due to network config order, all sorts of minor issues like that. 20:46:19 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-24-220-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:30 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey` 20:46:37 All secondhand, but there seem to be a lot of issues. I'm happy with my debian lenny, personally. 20:46:43 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-220-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:46:45 -!- gigamonkey` is now known as gigamonkey 20:46:45 http://justinsomnia.org/2007/09/mac-mini-vs-koala-mini/ 20:46:51 http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/releasenotes/910#Possible%20corruption%20of%20large%20files%20with%20ext4%20filesystem is what i was thinking of 20:46:51 minion: logs 20:46:52 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 20:48:51 Well, as it came from System76 with 9.04 it frequently kernel panicked. So I'm really hoping 9.10 fixes that. 20:52:09 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:09 -!- m314 [n=user@87.63.34.66] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:54:38 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 20:55:30 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:57:45 nvteighen [n=nvteighe@146.Red-81-37-138.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:50 hi there 20:58:18 with the fear of being totally laughed out, can someone please tell what am I doing wrong here? 20:58:20 http://lisp.pastebin.com/m52d4c78c 20:58:23 p_l annotated #89725 "CLudge - ASDF support" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89725#1 20:58:25 thx 20:58:29 gigamonkey: have you checked bios settings? 20:58:34 Pete_R [n=quassel@78.97.162.190] has joined #lisp 20:58:54 -!- rpg- [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:59:32 <_3b> nvteighen: use #'car instead of #'(lambda (x) (car x)), same for cadr 20:59:36 Hi! How can I set a slot in a structure which is at a given index in an array? 20:59:42 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1AC0.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:59:43 nvteighen: what's "equal?" ? 20:59:45 <_3b> (and you don't need #' on lambda anyway) 20:59:55 it's no scheme 20:59:56 setf removes the structure from vector 21:00:04 _3b: right 21:00:13 nvteighen: ouch 21:00:13 stassats: yup, a schemism :( 21:00:16 <_3b> for that matter, LOOP can destructure the lisp for you... 21:00:25 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:00:28 <_3b> (loop for (x y) in conds ...) 21:00:44 ... 21:00:56 nvteighen: you're using variables in there! 21:01:07 p_l, yet another package manager? 21:01:17 how does this one differ from all the previous ones? 21:01:25 rahul: ok, I feel an idiot... 21:01:29 nvteighen: you need to gensym the variable names and singly-evaluate the bindings 21:01:52 rahul: ah... that... I was going to add gensym after having this right 21:01:59 nvteighen: and why on earth are you using a macro for this? 21:02:00 Pete_R: (setf (slot-acessor (aref vector 10)) 42) ? 21:02:27 Fare: Just experimenting with ideas and code - it's something that was going on my mind since June or earlier 21:02:29 rahul: it's just an exercise 21:02:30 nvteighen: also, you're already quoting the variable name when you call the macro 21:02:35 p_l, sure 21:02:39 nvteighen: exercising bad habits is a bad idea 21:03:01 nvteighen: if this were a sensible macro, it wouldn't be so messy to implement 21:03:17 rahul: I need the macro because I'm trying to reimplement something like a C switch statement... I can't do that with a procedure 21:03:30 nvteighen: you mean CASE? 21:03:45 rahul: yep, like case, but by me and worse :p 21:03:52 heh 21:03:53 Thank you stassats! 21:03:55 I see 21:03:59 just for the sake of it 21:04:11 I thought the goal was to switch values of variables 21:04:13 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:26 of course I'm not going to use this in real code :p 21:04:34 and I couldn't for the life of me figure out how it was being accomplished :P 21:05:04 *Xach* gets http://twitter.com/lispmeetings up and running 21:05:23 Fare: And I'm trying not overengineer it too much. Some changes should be usable for many people fast (win32 hint hint) 21:05:25 nvteighen: nvteighen you need to ,x and ,y 21:05:29 the idea will be to tweet the day before a meeting. the next 30 days of meetings will be in a planet lisp sidebar. 21:05:31 gaze_ [n=gaze@ResNet-36-138.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 21:05:50 nvteighen: macroexpand and you would have seen those names bleeding out 21:05:58 -!- gaze [n=gaze@ResNet-36-138.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:06:10 rahul: hm... ok 21:06:22 nvteighen: that's easy: (defmacro switch (key &body forms) `(case ,key ,@forms)) 21:06:26 nvteighen: try macroexpanding your call that you have there 21:06:31 heh 21:06:35 p_l, note that cl-fad has a lot of brokenness IMHO 21:06:48 also, asdf can't afford to depend on anything else 21:06:53 (unlike say xcvb) 21:07:04 stassats: lol... but it's unfair :p 21:07:11 benny [n=benny@i577A1AC0.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:07:35 tcr [n=tcr@88-134-20-86-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:07:41 right, it doesn't have fall-through 21:08:20 howdy 21:08:28 ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-182-237.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 21:08:32 hi 21:09:20 rahul: ok, now I've got http://lisp.pastebin.com/m20b2fe89 21:09:41 <_3b> nvteighen: use lisppaste, too hard to read that site :( 21:09:52 lisppaste: url 21:09:52 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 21:10:30 <_3b> nvteighen: so, what is wrong with what you have? 21:10:32 *stassats* should setup lisppaste.el again 21:10:37 Fare: broken in what way? (so I could fix parts that are needed) 21:11:13 nvteighen pasted "macro gone wrong" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89747 21:11:38 _3b: now it complains for a compile-time error 21:12:09 did you inspect its macroexpansion? 21:12:15 <_3b> well, if you can't figure out anything from that, annotate the paste with with the error 21:12:15 are you using slime? 21:12:34 macroexpand-1 gives me the illegal function call error 21:12:38 _3b: ok 21:12:48 Fare: so far I was targeting only 3 implementations anyway (SBCL, CCL, ECL) 21:13:14 nvteighen annotated #89747 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89747#1 21:13:44 you are using macroexpand-1 wrong, aren't you? 21:14:30 did you quote the form you passed to the macroexpand-1? 21:14:39 heck... 21:14:52 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-58-250.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:15:02 C-c C-m in slime is more handy 21:15:52 stassats: yeah, really better... let's see 21:15:53 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-210-30.taconic.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:16:11 and why do you have variables you're not using? 21:16:43 oh great, firefox crashed while looking at that paste 21:17:13 stassats: it crashed? lol 21:17:30 yeah... the variables disappeared... so, they're redundant 21:18:18 p_l: supporting ECL would be next thing on my list after the standalone backend 21:18:56 p_l: no "don't resolve symlinks" option to its directory lister, the broken "breadth-first" claim in the interface. 21:19:06 (see iolib for a fixed interface) 21:19:38 Fare: big thing coming from ECL support would be a standalone application that depended on nothing while not scaring people with huge size (and playing nice with stuff like grsec) 21:20:04 -!- Osaka [n=yuki@fl-71-3-72-40.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:20:26 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host184.190-227-39.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 21:20:44 nvteighen: when you fix your variables, check out (switch (print "HELLO") (1 'a) (4 'b) (7 'c)) 21:21:35 billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-210-30.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:12 stassats: right, because it's evaluating whatever it gets there... 21:26:02 nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:26:59 Tordek__ [n=tordek@host118.190-137-188.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 21:27:12 nvteighen annotated #89747 "Now it kinda works" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89747#2 21:27:47 <_3b> nvteighen: EQ isn't reliable for numbers 21:28:05 hm... maybe I should let the user choose the predicate 21:28:24 anyway EQL should be the default 21:28:55 <_3b> also, use &body instead of &rest so it indents properly 21:29:37 gonzojive [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 21:30:24 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 21:31:09 rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:32:02 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:32:37 jeez 21:32:47 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:32:48 why are slime inspector's buttons using error-face? 21:32:58 it hurts my head 21:32:58 coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has joined #lisp 21:32:59 To make them nice? 21:33:07 errors all over are nice? 21:33:15 Red is nice. 21:33:19 why not use button-face? 21:33:19 rahul: you have a cognitive dissonance? 21:33:25 lnostdal annotated #89747 "dodge multiple evaluation problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89747#3 21:33:30 what's grsec? 21:33:37 stassats: I make my error-face physically painful to look at 21:33:43 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-182-237.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:33:48 uh, how did this end up here 21:33:56 rahul: With the emacs-to-electro-shock interface? 21:33:58 stassats: that way I have cognitive consonance between emotion and situation 21:34:03 heh 21:34:10 pjb: as close as I can get with a monitor 21:34:17 bold red on yellow background 21:34:21 Fare, grsecurity, a kernel patch. IIRC adds a lot of address-space randomisation -- enough to break SBCL. 21:34:39 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 21:35:16 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.138] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:36:15 I have a class hierarchy for which I have generic functions defined on the instances of the classes. How can a method combination so that (call-next-method) on a CLASS in such an hierarchy will call the next method on the next item in the specializer list? 21:36:30 I suppose SBCL could be made impervious to that... though it would be work and pain. 21:36:52 gonzojive: you mean the method that specializes onthe next arg to the function? 21:37:09 I am mainly wondering if others have had this problem before, too, because I think I have wanted to do this a few times it seems to get messy 21:37:16 Fare, AIUI it would involve making the code generator emit relocatable code. 21:37:43 gonzojive: that's how it works by default. no need to do anything special... 21:38:05 deepfire: grsec can't force PIC on an executable compiled without PIC... 21:38:07 gonzojive: maybe the progn method combination will it easier to avoid mistakes 21:38:16 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host48.190-137-252.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:38:21 deepfire: do non-PIC programs (that's most of them in a normal distro...) just fail to start? 21:38:28 then methods that match any arg will get executed, in order 21:39:27 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 21:39:33 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@host184.190-227-39.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:40:07 rahul: so I have classes A, B, and C. (C inherits from B inherits from A). When I would like to define a generic function that, when its first argument is the class C, the (call-next-method) will call the method that specialize for class B. 21:40:23 foom, when the kernel decides to set up process mappings so that SBCL can't get a region it requires, I'm suspecting it ends up badly. 21:40:50 deepfire: sure. but that doesn't mean making sbcl emit relocatable code. 21:41:11 deepfire: that means making sbcl reserve heap regions early enough 21:41:14 -!- udzinari [n=user@nat/ibm/x-2dce92f89dd33bb4] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:41:44 (or, just using x86-64, where there's enough memory space for everyone) 21:41:45 I basically want the class (call-next-method) to operate along the same chain as (call-next-methods) on instances of that class 21:41:51 i'll look into progn method combination 21:42:55 nvteighen annotated #89747 "better!" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89747#4 21:43:10 gonzojive: Isn't that what call-next-method usually just does? 21:43:12 stassats: now it looks quite better :) 21:43:23 tcr: he means on the class itself, not instances of that class 21:43:35 (I had to read it about three times) 21:43:46 sorry for the poor explanation 21:44:47 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 21:45:03 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 21:45:14 you could pass the class-prototype to the generic function you're caring about, but I would tend to say "you're doing it wrong" if you think you need something like this 21:45:22 so maybe you could try to explain why you think you need this 21:45:38 -!- nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:49:16 -!- thoolihan [n=thooliha@207.54.160.73] has quit ["http://twitter.com/thoolihan"] 21:49:34 i will make a paste. perhaps the best solution is to define a new metaclass in tandem with each new class definition when you need special behavior on the class object itself 21:50:20 ok, bye and thanks fior your help :) 21:50:22 -!- nvteighen [n=nvteighe@146.Red-81-37-138.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 21:50:36 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.196.35] has joined #lisp 21:50:48 gonzojive: this is exactly how methods are ordered in CLOS 21:54:25 clhs 7.6.6.1.2 21:54:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_ffab.htm 21:54:53 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 21:54:57 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 21:55:19 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229240178.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 21:55:31 levy [n=levente_@apn-94-44-6-97.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 21:56:23 -!- Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:59:21 blakkino [n=BLaCk@78.251.225.108] has joined #lisp 21:59:37 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:00:03 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 22:00:43 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.196.35] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:00:53 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.184.64] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:02:32 is sharpsign-comma (#,) missing from SBCL? 22:02:46 clhs #, 22:02:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dh.htm 22:03:00 comma? 22:03:08 it's missing from CL 22:03:30 hmm 22:03:48 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-7-167.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:03:51 it would be cool for #, to splice in all of the values returned by the form 22:04:02 gonzojive pasted "maybe avoiding a metaclass definition for each class definition" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89750 22:04:20 it wouldn't be user-implementable. would require implementation magic 22:04:20 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.208] has joined #lisp 22:04:21 #, was in cltl 22:04:35 ohh i think i meant #. 22:04:40 havent used it in a while 22:04:48 clisp does #, i wonder what it does 22:04:50 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:04:57 #. isn't missing from SBCL 22:05:01 oh load-time versus read-time 22:05:16 stassats: yes just found that 22:05:22 ah cool 22:05:41 but that's just shorthand for an eval-when 22:05:54 or maybe load-time-value 22:06:17 Additional reader macros: #, load-time evaluation, kept despite the [ANSI CL standard] issue SHARP-COMMA-CONFUSION:REMOVE. 22:06:24 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.184.64] has joined #lisp 22:08:57 heh 22:09:02 Krystof: that paste is how I'm using all this. I'm growing inclined to make a metaclass along with each class, if either the user needs customizable behavior on that class or if the direct superclasses are not the same/one inherits from the other 22:09:11 that issue exactly covers the confusion I had in guessing what it would do 22:09:47 rahul: does that paste make more sense than my jumbled explanation? 22:10:42 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:11:05 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@45-223.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:11:13 _3b: here ? 22:11:22 <_3b> xristos: yeah 22:11:24 gonzojive: nothing in your paste has anything to do with what you've been talking about, as far as I can tell 22:11:41 using your repo do i need to do something to enable check-error for every function 22:11:48 or disable it 22:11:52 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-51-198.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:12:29 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-179-232.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 22:12:32 m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:13:01 <_3b> it should be enabled by default, you can disable it with a recompile though 22:15:21 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6BEBC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:24 how do i disable it, i don't see anything in the asd 22:15:40 -!- Pete_R [n=quassel@78.97.162.190] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:15:47 <_3b> push :cl-opengl-no-check-error onto *features* and recompile 22:15:55 ok 22:16:28 <_3b> is it causing any problems? 22:16:35 no 22:16:52 i have it on normally 22:16:57 just trying to narrow something down 22:17:02 <_3b> ok 22:17:24 gonzojive annotated #89750 "THE QUESTION" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89750#1 22:18:01 -!- billitch [n=billitch@82.113.121.92] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:18:31 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:49 *_3b* doesn't really like that mechanism for disabling it, but can't think of anything better, since it gets inlined 22:19:21 serichsen [n=user@f054177009.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:19:28 good evening 22:20:40 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [] 22:21:02 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:21:14 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has left #lisp 22:21:49 rsynnott_ [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 22:22:39 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:23:31 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 22:25:09 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 22:27:47 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-220-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:27:55 WhiteFlam [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:57 -!- WhiteFlam [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:28:29 _3b pasted "is this conformant?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89753 22:30:02 <_3b> 'this' being either the code, or the sbcl's response to it 22:30:28 -!- serichsen [n=user@f054177009.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["augh my bus"] 22:30:39 anyone with some knowledge of pcl (internals) online? .. add-method is defined by real-add-method IIUC, but of course changes to r-a-m have no effect .. is there some way to force a "re-bootstrap" or something -- from within a normal working environment (slime)? 22:31:25 _3b: clhs 3.2.2.3 22:32:04 clhs 3.2.2.3 22:32:04 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbc.htm 22:32:12 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.184.64] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:32:46 -!- levy [n=levente_@apn-94-44-6-97.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 22:32:47 lnostdal: can't you just also redefine the relevant bits of add-method? 22:33:06 aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 22:33:08 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-110-245.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:33:21 -!- tcr [n=tcr@88-134-20-86-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:33:32 -!- rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:33:35 <_3b> Krystof: the 3rd point? 22:34:00 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 22:34:08 _3b: close as I can get 22:34:15 Krystof, hm, or perhaps i can call real-add-method directly .. heh.. (this is from add-writer-method in std-class.lisp .. i'm trying to hunt down a problem) 22:35:26 mstevens [n=mstevens@198.95.2.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 22:35:33 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-179-232.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:35:57 -!- cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:38:16 _3b: you didn't give the compiler the information needed to change what it is inlining 22:38:38 _3b: you can't expect it to be able to inline a compiled closure 22:38:50 francogrex [n=user@113.109-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 22:38:52 Joreji [n=thomas@46-247.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:39:10 What new and beautiful in lisp today? 22:39:31 lisp meet tweets! 22:39:47 Alabaman_ [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 22:39:56 _3b: I don't think this specific case is covered. they probably never thought anyone would do that :P 22:40:10 Xach: must it? 22:40:15 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:40:45 It must. 22:41:05 *rsynnott_* must revive that twitterbuzz thing 22:41:18 (it was in lisp; didn't work that well, though) 22:41:22 -!- nha [n=prefect@31-174.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit ["Anyone can be smart; a genius is someone who does something amazing with their intelligence."] 22:41:51 <_3b> rahul: i probably wouldn't if i wasn't trying to break it :) 22:43:16 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has left #lisp 22:45:39 Demosthenes [n=demo@s72-38-68-53.static.comm.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:21 Fare, there? 22:47:19 -!- francogrex [n=user@113.109-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:51:00 yes 22:55:25 *grumble* .. what's the point in trying to make clos and/or clos internals thread-safe anyway? .. at that level, it just seems futile to begin with 22:56:00 code is almost impossible to follow .. :/ 22:56:05 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:13 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-130.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 22:56:58 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-110-245.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 22:57:12 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-110-245.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:57:51 lnostdal: Well CLOS has to be atleast reentrant. 23:00:10 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-179-232.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 23:00:25 Fare, the closer xcvbification diff does not apply, due to munged relativity 23:00:51 Fare, PURI doesn't apply either 23:01:27 nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 23:02:03 *deepfire* 's automated xcvbificator is in testing phase 23:02:10 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:02:37 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:03:04 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:03:37 Hello all. 23:03:43 hi 23:03:49 hi 23:04:03 Hey nyef. 23:04:13 nyef: wb 23:04:16 *nyef* just spent something like six hours doing shopping things. :-/ 23:06:03 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 23:06:23 nyef, what kind of shopping for what kind of things? 23:06:56 Clothing, food, salt, and little wooden wheels. 23:07:09 I feel like I haven't gotten anything at all done today. 23:07:57 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp081.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 23:08:19 You should've stuck with the food and salt. Clothing and little wooden wheels are obvious time sinks. 23:09:15 heh 23:09:32 Actually, half the clothing and the salt were the major time sinks. 23:11:03 -!- kami- [n=user@p5B20D9AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:11:05 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 23:11:17 salt counts as food, no? :) 23:11:26 It's more a condiment. 23:12:21 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:12:26 eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 23:13:06 rsynnott_: not really, it doesn't have nutritional value.... 23:13:22 (even if it's important element of human diet) 23:13:25 it's essential for life, though 23:13:31 and most food contains it, of course 23:13:38 (in trace amounts, at least) 23:13:51 hi everyone - Q. Re: open files -> I have a file that contains several 'frames' of information. I'd like to have a class that holds the file ref and a single frame loaded at any given time, and then after performing some work with the data in the frame, I'd like to load another frame from the same file. in the initialize-instance of my class, how could I set the 'file slot to contain the file ref? 23:14:10 rsynnott_: the same way you could probably refer to iron :) 23:15:25 Shamwow: (make-instance 'my-class :file file ...)? 23:15:46 Shamwow: Within INITIALIZE-INSTANCE? I'd try using SETF... 23:16:01 Xach: true, that's how I load the make-instance, but how do I get the actual file opened? 23:16:09 clhs OPEN 23:16:09 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_open.htm 23:16:28 Since you're managing the file-handle lifetime explicitly, WITH-OPEN-FILE doesn't exactly help. 23:17:04 (setf (slot-value my-class 'file) (open filename :direction :input))?? 23:17:06 deepfire, munged relativity? 23:17:12 I didn't have a puri patch 23:17:14 Shamwow: I've never found a solution to that I'm super happy about. I save open streams in zpb-ttf font loaders and I used finalizers. 23:17:46 deepfire, I have a closer darcs repo in common-lisp.net/project/xcvb on 23:17:59 nyef: yes, the with-open-file is good for using in one method or defun, but I'd to roam outside a given function and keep the file open 23:18:13 Shamwow: you might consider just opening it on demand. 23:18:24 Xach: I'm not sure what zpb-ttf or font loaders are 23:18:45 Shamwow: zpb-ttf is a common lisp library for loading information from truetype font files 23:18:50 Xach: It's important that the file pointer be in the same location so I don't have to seek the correct frame each time I load it up 23:19:02 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:19:21 Xach: After I read a frame, I'd like the file pointer to be set to the beginning of the next frame for reading sometime later 23:19:25 Shamwow: sometimes there's a lot of info, so the loader keeps an open stream to lazily load stuff. but then you have to worry about leaving streams open that shouldn't be. 23:19:37 *Fare* updates it 23:19:59 Fare: Do you have a firm date for when the next boston lisp meeting will be yet? 23:20:02 looks like it works 23:20:06 nyef: oops, no 23:20:34 Xach: I can't load all the frames at once (too big), and so I have to go one at a time from the file stream, and I can't use the with-open-file... 23:21:15 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:23 Fare, http://common-lisp.net/project/xcvb/releases/patches/ says you have a puri patch, AFAICT 23:21:33 dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:36 Shamwow: you could define your own macro: with-open-frame-file which would expand to with-open-file. 23:22:00 Fare, but let me doublecheck about PURI patching failure reasons 23:22:35 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.219.241] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:22:40 if it does, I probably do 23:22:44 I didn't remember it 23:22:51 pjb: true, and then work within the context of a given function. However, I need to be able to leave the scope of any particular function and move the file info around more flexibly for various analyses. 23:23:17 I do indeed, and it's trivial -- xcvb a2x could do as well 23:23:36 (except for the indentation) 23:23:49 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:25:05 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 23:25:10 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 23:26:11 Fare, the idea is for desire to provide a set of xcvb-loadable packages, by pulling XCVBification diffs from the above location, applying them and exporting the result as a topic branch in git. 23:26:51 Fare, this almost works, actually, modulo a couple of unimplemented quirks. 23:27:02 deepfire: if you have updates to some of the patches, I welcome them. 23:27:27 I think iolib would be the next thing I'd like to xcvbify 23:27:40 (so I may use it in a future version of xcvb) 23:28:59 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 23:29:09 Fare: only if you fork it 23:29:10 Hi 23:30:02 what's wrong with asdf-install from sbcl on windows? 23:30:13 it downloads the package 23:30:15 rvirding [n=chatzill@h138n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 23:30:35 *deepfire* feels the air getting hot and dense 23:30:49 and hangs when tar is called 23:31:19 I wouldn't expect asdf-install to work on windows, and it's strongly disrecommended for use on other systems anyway. 23:31:22 Please don't use it. 23:31:46 amaron: there is a workaround to make it work (kind of) with cygwin 23:32:47 amaron: http://robert.zubek.net/blog/2008/04/09/sbcl-emacs-windows-vista/#comment-5 23:32:53 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@198.95.2.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [] 23:33:27 amaron: well, windows doesn't have tar etc. 23:33:52 p_l, i have with mingw 23:34:12 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@46-247.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:34:48 Osaka [n=yuki@fl-71-3-73-204.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:03 fe[nl]ix, uh? 23:36:13 fe[nl]ix, fork what? iolib? 23:36:14 amaron: are they in %PATH%? I doubt so. Plus other problems 23:36:41 fe[nl]ix, you don't want xcvb support to be included in iolib? 23:36:42 nyquist, thanks alot I think this will solve it 23:37:35 amaron: good luck, consider moving to better platform as plan B :) 23:39:08 nyquist, thank you, I'm using linux anyway, but I would like to port some of my apps to lisp for some of my clients who are using windows 23:39:51 m1z0b3 [n=Rodrigo@mail.ltia.fc.unesp.br] has joined #lisp 23:40:09 Fare: no 23:40:48 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:42:17 -!- tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p296ba7.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 23:43:41 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:43:41 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:43:57 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:44:33 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:30 nyquist` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 23:45:36 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-4-92.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:45:58 fe[nl]ix, can you elaborate? 23:47:00 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-206.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:47:03 ayrnieu annotated #89718 "asdf-install notes" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89718#2 23:47:14 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 23:47:19 -!- nyquist` is now known as udzinari 23:47:43 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 23:49:14 fe[nl]ix, is there something wrong with XCVB in general? 23:49:26 or just the lack of particular feature? 23:49:50 I know that a much demanded feature is a "no invasiveness in source files" feature, which I intend to implement ASAP 23:50:20 (as soon as I'm done with the "standalone backend" feature, which in turn will entail a "exploded dependencies" feature) 23:50:28 in (defmethod initialize-instance ((obj obj-type) &key)...) can I use with-slots as with any other defmethod? 23:50:42 and what is the &key for in the initialize-instance? 23:56:39 Shamwow, so the gf can accept keys 23:57:00 yes you can. 23:57:06 Fare: gf? 23:57:10 generic function 23:57:17 deepfire: thanks 23:57:23 but somehow you can't use (boundp ...) on a with-slot specified variable 23:59:53 -!- nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]