00:00:19 LiamH: But then you'd need to rethink radix-2 vs mixed-radix 00:00:34 LiamH: Or maybe not. 00:01:04 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 00:01:12 pkhuong: wow, I think I read this before, but never appreciated the beauty of that solution 00:01:48 LiamH annotated #89661 "Fix forward-fourier-transform" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89661#5 00:02:21 "sqrt(7) is hairy" 00:02:42 LiamH: It's 1 am now, and for some reason, I have to get some sleep. When the branch is working again, can you push the changes? I'll have a look at it tomorrow 00:02:49 LiamH: Regarding the latest paste... 00:03:27 Sikander: OK. I'll work at it some more tonight (7PM here). I can't guarantee it'll be fully working, but it will better. 00:03:32 LiamH: if the stride is such that the transform is non-radix-2 anymore, you still use the radix-2 transform. I'm not sure that will work 00:03:50 Sikander: Ah, OK, I'll have to think about that. 00:04:27 LiamH: I'll have a look to at how stride is exactly handled, but I think that the "length" that should be radix-2 is n/stride 00:04:28 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:04:29 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:04:35 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:04:36 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 00:04:37 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 00:04:51 LiamH: Catch you later 00:04:52 Sikander: So (power-of-2-p (floor (size vector) stride)) might be better for the if? 00:04:59 Sikander: OK 00:05:03 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:05:19 LiamH: Probably, I'd have to think about it too. 00:05:24 Goodnight 00:05:28 Sikander: Ok thanks, goodnight. 00:05:30 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Time to sleep"] 00:05:45 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-125-87.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:11:26 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:11:27 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:11:38 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 00:11:41 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 00:11:47 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:57 froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has joined #lisp 00:12:42 the key is the x' in p0 + q0/(p1 + q1/( ... = p0 + q0/x' 00:13:22 that turns the whole exercise into grade school algebra: FOIL! 00:13:25 -!- hoeq [n=hoeq@213-65-76-219-no91.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:14:16 I wonder what other choices for the 8 coefficients correspond to... 00:16:17 pkhuong: but the result of a+b does not itself become a continued fraction using this method. you lazily say "add the successive terms that approximate the numbers" 00:16:42 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-121-13.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:17:29 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:19:05 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:19:08 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:19:16 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 00:19:18 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 00:20:08 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp093.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:24:48 quek 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peer)] 00:49:45 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177154117.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 00:50:35 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 00:50:44 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 00:53:20 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h138n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:54:11 -!- mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6C899.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:55:56 crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #lisp 00:56:24 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:56:42 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 00:57:08 _death [n=death@bzq-84-110-54-168.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:26 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:59:15 -!- Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 01:02:29 Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:29 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:02:37 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 01:02:53 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 01:03:32 -!- elurin``` is now known as elurin 01:04:24 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-110-245.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:04:27 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:07:42 Hm, the discussion on the git list sounds pathetic. 01:08:08 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440880.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 01:08:20 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:08:30 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 01:08:43 what discussion ? 01:08:43 Who am I to judge, though.. 01:11:00 fe[nl]ix, http://marc.info/?t=125702703800002&r=1&w=2 01:11:28 -!- gonzojive [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has left #lisp 01:13:26 Sounds like they are already fighting complexity. 01:14:28 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 01:14:38 -!- _death [n=death@bzq-84-110-54-168.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:14:53 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 01:15:15 Well, "already" after several years of development, though. 01:15:42 Still, with the supposed caliber of people involved.. 01:17:35 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 01:18:15 -!- rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:19:18 peddie_ [n=peddie@c-98-210-236-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:45 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-170-244.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:22 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:35 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:21:50 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 01:22:19 -!- Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:23:41 lkjlja [n=lkjlja@c-76-27-2-221.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:50 somedudefromover [n=user@thor.desktops.utk.edu] has joined #lisp 01:25:25 How can I make #'use-package always use the new-package's symbol? 01:25:35 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 01:27:21 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:27:29 Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:33 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 01:27:43 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-67-109-95.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:29:17 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-121-13.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 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timed out)] 02:28:20 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:29:07 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-138-194-173.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 02:31:19 -!- pdk` [n=test@c-24-131-66-4.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:33:33 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.210.208] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 02:35:58 -!- ntd [n=user@daneel.cc.gt.atl.ga.us] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:47:35 Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:43 -!- Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:55:50 -!- TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:57:37 minion: memo for somedudefromover: you could use handler-bind with invoke-restart: (let ((package :P1)) (handler-bind ((package-error (lambda (err) (invoke-restart package)))) (use-package package))) ; the the restart name and the condition itself are not specified (or not precisely enough), therefore they'll most probably be implementation dependant. The given form works in clisp. It may also catch too many package errors, since 02:57:37 there's not a specific used symbol name conflict condition... 02:57:37 Remembered. I'll tell somedudefromover when he/she/it next speaks. 02:57:56 minion: memo for somedudefromover: there's not a specific used symbol name conflict condition... 02:57:56 Remembered. I'll tell somedudefromover when he/she/it next speaks. 03:00:32 debrisrat [n=debrisra@78.189.168.171] has joined #lisp 03:01:10 stroan [i=stroan@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 03:06:34 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:09:16 I am doing my first programming assignment for Common Lisp. How would I go about prompting a user for 5 numbers and then print the sum of that input? Thanks anyone. 03:09:58 lkjlja: sounds like studying the course materials would be a good start. 03:10:26 perhaps talking to a TA? 03:10:47 Ralith, Unfortunately the course is not a "complete programming course" 03:11:18 Ralith, It's an intro to artificial intelligence. 03:11:21 I doubt it's a "here's an assigment with no background at all" course either. 03:11:46 surely they've taught or given you the resources to learn the basics of the language. 03:12:36 is there something specific you're having trouble with? 03:13:40 Really the only specific thing would be getting input at one point and then doing something. The other functions I've done so far have only had one task 03:14:36 you can write code serially in CL much like a mainstream language. 03:14:51 e.g. (defun foo (x y) (do-something x) (do-something y)) 03:14:55 well, but you need to collect the output in a variable which IS different 03:15:08 wat 03:16:04 Something like (defun foo() (read-line) (write-line x)) has been giving trouble. Perhaps I am misunderstanding types involved 03:16:11 well, I suppose it isn't if you let the variable start nil 03:16:15 but that would be bad style 03:16:34 that program is syntactically correct as far as it goes 03:17:16 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 03:17:43 You're right, it is. I'm not sure where I ran into trouble 03:18:21 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:18:25 lkjlja: style note: space between foo and () 03:18:41 I think it may have been when I was trying to use let to store the input 03:18:45 lkjlja: in that line you wrote, 'x' is undefined and you ignore the return value of read-line 03:18:52 ah, well, show us your let :) 03:19:00 perhaps you should review your code and come back when you know what your problem was? :P 03:19:21 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:20:41 I was getting a synchronous operating system error when I was using let (foo (read-line)) (write-line foo) 03:21:33 lkjlja: you need to read from foo 03:21:36 IIRC 03:21:44 eh? 03:21:54 ok, nevermind 03:21:56 the problem with that code is not the intent, it's the syntax 03:22:07 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-55d2e5df2f6aabac] has joined #lisp 03:22:10 lkjlja: LET takes a list of bindings, not the name and value of one binding 03:22:30 yeah 03:22:57 ok, honestly I am not sure how that would look 03:23:16 -!- debrisrat [n=debrisra@78.189.168.171] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:23:17 (let ((foo (read-line))) (write-line foo)) 03:23:46 debrisrat [n=debrisra@78.189.168.171] has joined #lisp 03:24:01 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-130-194.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:24:47 I see. Then I wonder what I was doing that was giving me that system error... 03:24:57 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-167-9.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:00 chenfengyuan| [n=chenfeng@117.136.10.1] has joined #lisp 03:27:03 So how would I work a prompt for input before the let? If I do a defun ... ( (write-line "foo") (let ...) ), it says write-line is an illegal function object 03:28:04 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has joined #lisp 03:28:51 lkjlja: you're trying to use the return value of write-line as a function. 03:28:55 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 03:29:31 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.156.129.18] has joined #lisp 03:29:32 lkjlja: what does "do a defun ... " mean? Paste your defun. 03:30:03 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:30:14 most likely it's a case of ((write-line "foo")) 03:30:18 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:30:26 (defun adder() ( (write-line "Prompt") (let((foo (read-line))) (write-line foo)))) 03:30:45 i upgraded to 1.0.32 and now M-x slime drops me in SWANK package, and not cl-user 03:30:46 fusss, memo from p_l: SOAP truly sucks when you see RPC model with autogenerated schema... Message model and nicely crafted schema isn't that bad 03:30:57 lkjlja: you have meaningless parentheses 03:31:15 take out the ones that aren't part of any form, around the write-line and the let 03:31:23 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:33 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:31:44 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:05 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 03:33:23 I get an error, "Attempt to take the value of the unbound variable `LET'" then 03:33:28 Wescotte [n=WuzzleWa@75-9-90-101.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:41 then you removed the wrong parentheses 03:33:51 I said the parens around *both*, not the parens around *each* 03:35:32 -!- sykopomp|eee [n=user@c-24-118-53-243.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:36:10 never mind, i had `lisp` symlinked to cmucl 03:36:13 Indeed you did. Sorry for my misunderstanding. So with that, the prompt doesn't come till after read-line is occuring somehow 03:36:45 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:37:16 I was wondering, do any current implementations do "CDR coding"? 03:37:36 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-121-13.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:39:30 nvoorhies__ [n=nvoorhie@32.156.129.18] has joined #lisp 03:39:58 no 03:40:03 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:40:03 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:40:14 (not certain) 03:40:18 -!- chenfengyuan| is now known as chenfengyuan 03:40:51 -!- chenfengyuan is now known as chenfengyuan|ZN5 03:40:56 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:33 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 03:45:36 I'm trying to create a function to calculate the depth of a list. ie '(a b c) = 1 '(a (b c) = 2 etc.. I'm having a hell of a time wrapping my brain around how to do it. My initial idea is to iterate the list. If an item is an atom keep going.. If it's not recursively call itself on the current item and the current depth. Store this depth and compare it to the current max. When it's > swap it.. When you get to the end of the 03:45:36 list the max depth should be calculated.. However, I'm having a hell of a time writing that in lisp.. Anyone have a minute to help out? 03:47:57 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 03:48:25 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.156.129.18] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:48:25 -!- nvoorhies_ is now known as nvoorhies 03:48:41 I've written the countAtoms function two different ways but I can't seem to modify either one to count depth.. 03:48:57 minion: memo for illitrit: John, tpd2/quickstart.lisp doesn't know of the trivial-garbage dependency, and it tries to asdf-install parenscript which has a broken download link on cliki. i will be evaluating tpd2 for the new few days :-) 03:48:57 Remembered. I'll tell illitrit when he/she/it next speaks. 03:49:40 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@CPE0023cdd7a4b1-CM001cea87a35c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:51:32 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:49 *@#)(!@ I am adding a JMP-to-JMP cleanup pass asap 03:51:59 fusss: what old packages did you want from rice.edu? 03:52:11 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-68-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:13 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:53:23 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 03:54:41 froydnj: i can't remember; it just something out of curiousity 03:54:51 cmucl related, probably 03:54:52 http://pastebin.ca/1652535 <-- here is my code 03:56:11 Wescotte: hint, every time you consume the rest/cdr of the input list, increment a counter .. that's the usual pattern for depth counting 03:56:30 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:40 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-208-60.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 03:56:57 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-52.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:01:04 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 04:01:32 -!- nvoorhies__ [n=nvoorhie@32.156.129.18] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:01:51 fusss: does that still work with something like '(a b (c d) (e f ( g h) (i j) ) ) )) where the last cdr is actually a lower depth than the 2nd one? 04:02:00 Wescotte: think of it this way: you're scanning the list, left to right, and incrementing a counter every time you come across a new left-paren; this is a primitive string processing way to think of it, but it might simplify things a bit 04:02:41 in classic CS 101 fashion, you're probably recursing over the input list, examining its head, doing something with it, and then recursing over the tail 04:03:04 fusss: Don't you still need to -1 every time you hit a ) too.. 04:03:11 if the first element is just a regular atom, do nothing. if the first element is a new list, increment counter .. 04:03:48 Wescotte: there are a few list/tree recursion patterns and you will learn them all in the first 2 chapters of SICP 04:04:10 SICP? 04:04:52 along with your regular inputs; atoms and conses, you also need to establish an end or termination input value. for OS files it is the EOF character. For properst lists in Lisp, it's the list terminator NIL. 04:04:59 minion: tell Wescotte about SICP 04:04:59 Wescotte: direct your attention towards SICP: The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available under the CC-BY-NC Licence at (HTML), (Texinfo), and (PDF). Video lectures are available under the CC-BY-SA licence at 04:06:09 fusss: thanks for the help. I think I just need to step away for a few minutes.. I believe I know what I'm doing but I'm having a brain fart :) I'll try again in a few minutes.. and I'll glance over that text. Thanks 04:08:39 didi [n=user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 04:09:07 -!- Guest84096 [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-68-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:09:42 minion: memo for Sikander: Do a fresh pull; I have unified all the forward functions into one file. The examples look like they are working, but I don't have anything to compare them to. Does this make sense? 04:09:42 Remembered. I'll tell Sikander when he/she/it next speaks. 04:11:10 Wescotte: it's about 4 lines of code :-) 04:12:45 Wescotte: countDepth is actually max-depth, you will be recursing over the head and the tail of the input list and taking the max of their depths 04:15:03 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-55d2e5df2f6aabac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:15:25 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-69875478366b5758] has joined #lisp 04:17:16 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.213.69] has joined #lisp 04:18:19 fusss pasted "max-depth" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89669 04:18:40 Wescotte: see that link for hints 04:19:09 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-73-155.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:19:30 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:20:00 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 04:26:05 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313971.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:27:08 -!- lkjlja [n=lkjlja@c-76-27-2-221.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:29:39 Does defstruct's :include option create a subclass relationship that would work with method dispatch? 04:34:33 -!- chenfengyuan|ZN5 [n=chenfeng@117.136.10.1] has quit ["used jmIrc"] 04:37:32 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.219.111] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:40:12 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:40:16 sykopomp: yes. 04:41:49 pkhuong: thanks. The :include documentation in clhs says "all operations on (the superstruct) also work on (the substruct)", but I'm always wary of misreading this stuff :) 04:44:23 elurin` [n=user@85.99.64.89] has joined #lisp 04:45:51 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:06 elurin`` [n=user@81.213.200.208] has joined #lisp 04:50:33 -!- elurin [n=user@88.224.40.255] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:53:32 -!- didi [n=user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:54:18 -!- elurin` [n=user@85.99.64.89] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:55:32 -!- troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:58:18 nipra [n=nipra@117.195.96.130] has joined #lisp 05:00:11 lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-232-090.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:03:28 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-130-194.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 05:09:38 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has quit [Client Quit] 05:10:53 sykopomp: the relevant snippet is actually "If no :type option is involved, then the structure name of the including structure definition becomes the name of a data type, and therefore a valid type specifier recognizable by typep; it becomes a subtype of the included structure.". 05:13:26 aha. 05:14:15 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has joined #lisp 05:16:16 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-205-024.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:17:53 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:18:05 -!- blackwolf [n=blackwol@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:18:56 blackwolf [n=blackwol@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:05 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-130-194.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:20:56 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 05:21:44 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-111-65.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:27:30 plage [n=user@LRouen-151-71-116-193.w193-253.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:27:33 Good morning! 05:27:57 -!- vishsingh [n=vsingh@CPE0014bf4af6c2-CM000a739caee2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:28:19 good morning ! :) 05:28:26 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:28:36 morn' 05:28:56 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:30:06 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:30:36 debrisrat: New here? Or just a new nick? 05:32:15 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 05:34:16 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.164.197] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:38:50 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:40:51 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:41:09 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 05:42:55 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 05:42:59 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:44:57 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:46:07 egomosis_ [n=egomosis@222.240.176.18] has joined #lisp 05:46:09 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:46:22 -!- debrisrat is now known as DebrisRat 05:48:11 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 05:49:20 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:31 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:50:42 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:51:20 -!- egomosis_ [n=egomosis@222.240.176.18] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:51:20 plage: sorry i'm working other job what happend ? 05:51:25 -!- egomosis [n=egomosis@222.240.176.18] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:51:26 egomosis_ [n=egomosis@222.240.176.18] has joined #lisp 05:52:22 you are said "new here? " thats about this channel ? 05:52:29 Yeah. 05:52:47 i don't know. 05:52:54 Hmm. 05:52:58 i eplored new :) 05:53:03 i explored new :) 05:53:11 sorry ! 05:53:25 So, you didn't come here because you have a sudden interest in Lisp, then? 05:53:55 -ChanServ- Registered : Sep 17 10:57:04 2004 (5 years, 6 weeks, 4 days, 18:56:33 ago) 05:54:39 i'm only visitor 05:54:53 :) 05:55:39 hey DebrisRat how's it going? 05:55:54 good ! :) 05:55:56 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:58:17 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:58:52 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:00:18 Madsy [n=Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 06:01:43 -!- ski [n=slj@c-d413e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:04:28 *plage* wonders whether there is any coffee around here somewhere. 06:08:31 *hsaliak_* sips some 06:13:14 goood byee :) everybody :) 06:13:53 -!- DebrisRat [n=debrisra@78.189.168.171] has left #lisp 06:15:21 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.213.69] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:15:37 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 06:16:11 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:16:13 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 06:16:53 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@114-45-235-230.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:17:25 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:17:51 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-174-244.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:54 angel_ [n=angel@221.223.126.42] has joined #lisp 06:19:58 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:20:38 anybody give me some describe on clisp module bindings 06:21:10 lisp hyperspec? 06:21:11 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:21:44 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/common-lisp.html 06:22:27 angel_: clisp doc is at http://clisp.cons.org/ 06:22:39 angel_: it's called "Implementation NOTES". 06:22:49 i can't find document about clisp module bindings 06:23:06 what the module bindings used for?? 06:23:20 Shamiq [n=Adium@adsl-68-78-134-142.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:29 hi all -- quick question 06:23:54 is there a function like adjoin that instead adds the new element to the end of the list? 06:24:37 http://clisp.cons.org/impnotes/modules.html#incmod-bind 06:26:04 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 06:26:24 cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-68-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:26:26 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 06:28:21 ski [n=slj@c-d413e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 06:28:56 -!- angel_ [n=angel@221.223.126.42] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:29:43 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-253-19.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:29:44 serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d0668eb.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:29:48 good morning 06:31:19 hello serichsen 06:31:27 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-253-19.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:31:42 Shamiq: Hmm, adjoin treats the list as a set, so by definition order shouldn't matter. Why do you need to add it to the end? 06:31:56 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-68-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:32:06 to get a stable-union 06:32:29 ie, preserving the order of list1 in (union list1 list2) 06:33:08 Shamiq: You are in for a quadratic algorithm here. You might be better of using adjoin and reversing the list at the end. 06:33:10 good morning #lisp 06:33:16 hello madnificent 06:33:18 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:33:33 plage: i was afraid of that. 06:34:00 Shamiq: You can easily program the stable union yourself using loop. 06:34:15 clhs loop 06:34:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm 06:34:55 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:36:35 Shamiq: (loop until (and (null list1) (null list2)) collect (cond ((null list1) (pop list2)) ((null list2) (pop list1)) ((apply my-less (car list1) (car list2)) (pop list1)) ((apply my-less (car list2) (car list1)) (pop list2)) (t (pop list1) (pop list2)))) 06:36:39 or something like that. 06:41:12 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:42:20 milanj [n=milan@93.86.52.129] has joined #lisp 06:44:07 Madsy^ [n=Madsy@ti0207a340-0474.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 06:44:18 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:45:15 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:47:55 dalkvist_ [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 06:50:39 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 06:51:15 -!- Madsy [n=Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:54:44 chenfengyuan| [n=chenfeng@117.136.10.7] has joined #lisp 06:54:53 envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 06:59:24 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:10 Guest31692 [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:00:27 -!- dalkvist [n=cairdaza@213.226.77.202] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:03:09 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 07:03:39 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.52.129] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:08:02 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:08:53 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:10:47 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:14:11 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.119] has joined #lisp 07:16:30 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:18:08 bytecolor [n=user@32.153.46.71] has joined #lisp 07:18:12 -!- Shamiq [n=Adium@adsl-68-78-134-142.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:19:43 -!- Guest31692 [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:20:23 -!- nipra [n=nipra@117.195.96.130] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:20:40 bytecolor pasted "paip code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89671 07:20:44 nipra [n=nipra@117.195.96.224] has joined #lisp 07:22:16 trying to get some code from "Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming". Using a PROGV block with and EVAL statement. 07:23:33 -!- nipra [n=nipra@117.195.96.224] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:23:39 the FORMAT statements are just for debugging 07:26:41 existsp (defun whitespace-p (char) (member char (list #\Space #\Newline ..)))? 07:26:49 nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 07:26:51 bah getting my foot wet with lfs is cool... 07:26:56 lol 07:27:01 now i got it 07:27:55 -!- nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Client Quit] 07:28:03 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 07:29:54 notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@59.92.160.216] has joined #lisp 07:31:21 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.54.174] has joined #lisp 07:33:05 heh, win32 ccl doesn't gives a file "busy" error when doing tail -f on the file :-P 07:34:53 sepult: lfs? linux from scratch? linear file system? lisp for sale? 07:36:24 -!- notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@59.92.160.216] has quit [Success] 07:37:48 hrm, $63 for paip on amazon. I think I'll flip a coin. 07:39:40 totorocat [n=totoroca@c-71-231-183-36.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:51 -!- crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has left #lisp 07:41:05 -!- Madsy^ is now known as Madsy 07:41:50 nipra [n=nipra@117.195.97.237] has joined #lisp 07:43:29 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 07:44:03 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:47:28 -!- plage [n=user@LRouen-151-71-116-193.w193-253.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:47:54 bytecolor: and then buy the book anyway :) 07:48:51 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:49:21 heh, probably will, I have the pdf, but I still like the dead tree versions. 07:49:48 bytecolor: having *that* pdf is nothing to be proud of 07:49:55 this one's _heavy_, I'll have you know 07:50:59 hello lispers 07:51:32 demmel [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-201-204.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:52:03 notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@59.92.129.28] has joined #lisp 07:52:58 bytecolor: ?OP is a variable which holds '> 07:53:38 serichsen: yes 07:53:49 or rather, a name the variable value of which is '> 07:54:03 nod 07:54:14 however, you seem to need a function 07:55:20 it *should* be evaluating (> 3 4) 07:55:26 bytecolor: so, you need to put the function into the bindings 07:56:06 serichsen: I follow you, maybe I have a problem else where. Like when the bindings are stored. 07:57:16 I think that would be the easiest, letting ?OP be (function >) 07:57:46 I typed all the match code from the book in by hand, probably more than a few errors therein. 07:57:50 you still need to funcall this, then, though 07:58:14 hrm 07:58:42 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:58:52 isn't the code available on the book website? 07:59:13 jdz: nod I'm looking at it now ;) 08:00:10 Axius [n=ojof@92.84.11.120] has joined #lisp 08:02:43 ASau [n=user@host65-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 08:07:06 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:07:26 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:12 -!- demmel [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-201-204.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:08:33 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.84.11.120] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:10:08 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:10:23 good morning 08:10:50 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:10:54 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-34-203.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 08:11:05 morning 08:11:45 good morning both 08:13:53 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:16:58 -!- majhool [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 08:20:41 -!- ASau [n=user@host65-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:22:02 -!- chenfengyuan| [n=chenfeng@117.136.10.7] has quit ["used jmIrc"] 08:23:20 fiveop [n=fiveop@e179121134.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:26:38 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-11-61.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:28:14 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.119] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 08:29:16 cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 08:31:06 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:33:42 -!- xan-afk_ is now known as xan 08:35:26 -!- gaze [n=gaze@c-67-170-217-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:38:31 sbt [n=sbt@234.80-203-17.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:40:09 -!- ejs [n=eugen@95.135.117.213] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:40:35 (sb-impl::module-provide-contrib :sb-bsd-sockets) ==> NIL!? 08:41:09 ;; Error while loading: /home/fusss/.slime/fasl/2009-11-02/sbcl-1.0.32-linux-x86/swank-sbcl.fasl 08:41:11 ;; Condition: Don't know how to REQUIRE SB-BSD-SOCKETS. 08:41:17 this is after a recent upgrade 08:42:16 my upgrade procedure was downloading a binary tarball of latest for linux, then she install.sh; nothing major. i then went on and chowned the sbcl directory to my account, instead of root. what is the problem? 08:43:09 in another, work setup, (sb-imp::module-provide-contrib :sb-bsd-sockets) returns T 08:43:58 are you sure the stelth slime fasl directory is the right place for a sbcl contrib? 08:44:49 (and what do you get when you REQUIRE it?) 08:45:02 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 08:45:11 sellout- [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:45:16 don't know how to require :SB-BSD-SOCKETS 08:45:27 nipra_ [n=nipra@117.195.103.255] has joined #lisp 08:45:53 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:46:12 it should be under /usr/local/lib/sbcl/ 08:46:32 clearly your install is borked 08:47:47 the slime directory structure is like that; ~/.slime/fasl/slime-version/lisp-impl-type-version/*.fasl; it's a way to keep slime fasl for multiple lisps away from each other 08:48:07 yeah, but sbcl contribs are precompiled 08:48:48 the error is on loading swank-sbcl.fasl, because it depends on sb-bsd-sockets, which should be auto-loaded but it's not 08:49:01 do you use your own asdf, perhaps? or extend it in unsavory ways? 08:49:05 i am gonna run (l|s)trace on sbcl and see where it's looking for files 08:49:25 I am Mr. Stock Everything. i don't even build my own sbcls, to avoid headache. 08:50:12 what if you blow the ~/.slime/fasl directory altogether and try again? 08:50:49 -!- nipra [n=nipra@117.195.97.237] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:53:05 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 08:53:11 same same 08:54:09 restart emacs? reboot the machine? cycle the building's power? sacrifice a possum? 08:54:54 i haven't sacrificed any mammals yet, not sure what that has to do with sbcl, but you never know 08:55:06 cmm-: :P 08:55:34 oh, and is your slime, like, today's CVS version? I'd suspect that too, for good measure 08:55:46 fusss: can you try reproducing it at the terminal? 08:56:04 start sbcl, run (require :sb-bsd-sockets) 08:57:24 yes, did just at that debugger invoked on a SB-INT:EXTENSION-FAILURE: 08:57:25 Don't know how to REQUIRE SB-BSD-SOCKETS. 08:57:29 also, check SBCL_HOME to see if SBCL is looking at right directory. Check for test-passed in the directory to see if it built. 08:57:54 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:58:08 SBCL_HOME is unset 08:58:35 let me try to install it anew 09:00:14 *fusss* hangs head in shame 09:01:21 well, at least no possums were harmed 09:01:39 I have all my lispy stuff installed in $HOME, just so I know where *everything* is 09:01:53 i saw in my .history file that my "installation" consisted of cp -r'ing files to /usr/local/sbcl instead of running the darned script as I *said* I did 09:01:57 heh, have to remember to try cycling the power sometime ;) 09:02:59 animal sacrifice is a remnant of a more barbaric era. in this enlightened age, it's sufficient to briefly torture them. 09:03:28 lol 09:06:00 bytecolor: you shouldn't... it's bad after that the possums will likely need to start their cycle of existence again too 09:06:18 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 09:06:43 reading my sentence, I realize that I'm not really awake 09:06:53 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:07:16 drink more coffee! 09:07:30 *madnificent* notices a _full_ coffee cup next to him 09:07:32 thanks bytecolor 09:07:44 make that a cup of coffee 09:08:08 I'm also reading up on C, which is mind-degrading 09:09:34 -!- sellout- [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:10:03 I get no pleasure out of writing C, unless I'm playing with flex/bison 09:10:41 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:15:06 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 09:18:36 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 09:20:37 ejs [n=eugen@213-117-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:03 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:23:21 -!- envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:25:40 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [] 09:26:33 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 09:31:16 -!- notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@59.92.129.28] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:33:49 hoeq [n=hoeq@213-65-76-219-no91.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:34:08 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:35:51 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Client Quit] 09:39:18 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.54.174] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:39:33 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 09:39:41 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:39:55 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.54.174] has joined #lisp 09:40:09 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Client Quit] 09:40:13 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 09:40:16 good morning 09:40:54 attila_lendvai: is it safe to pull dwim.hu/live? 09:41:56 kami-, none of us were working on it last week, so not much changed there. (yes) 09:43:03 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 09:47:08 demmel [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 09:47:30 ASau [n=user@host65-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 09:59:59 -!- egomosis_ [n=egomosis@222.240.176.18] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:00:32 KingNato_ [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 10:01:01 -!- KingNato_ [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Client Quit] 10:02:04 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:03:02 lichtblau, What's the url to your qthemlock demo? 10:04:18 the video? 10:05:09 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:05:11 http://www.lichteblau.com/tmp/random-hemlock-stuff.ogv 10:05:46 yeah cool thanks 10:05:59 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 10:06:40 it feels out of date to me now, but that probably doesn't matter. If it was 48 months behind slime previously, it's now 46 months behind slime. 10:06:42 Radical improvements from my perspective, still useless for anyone else. : ) 10:07:03 so several projects in clbuild depend on editor-hints, but editor-hints itself is not defined as a clbuild project (named-readtables is, though) 10:07:08 what's up with that? 10:07:17 (I must be doing something wrong) 10:07:29 varjag_ [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 10:07:46 cmm-: hmm, I must have pushed the named-readtables change without regenerating dependencies. 10:08:13 dependencies should really be done by a cronjob or something. 10:08:42 lichtblau, doesn't darcs have some precommit hook? 10:09:11 you could perhaps compare mtimes 10:09:14 -!- varjag_ [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Client Quit] 10:09:18 and warn if they don't match 10:09:30 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 10:09:50 lichtblau: ah. do you have some magic script to do that or can a user do it in his repository too? 10:10:06 lichtblau, Make sure to update your copy of slime. I merged in my improved autodoc work. 10:10:18 it may be back to 48 hours :) 10:10:22 trittweiler: probably. But updating all projects and building dependencies takes ages, so I do it only evere couple of weeks. I have a second clbuild check out for that, which I "rm -rf" every now and then to make certain I don't have stale stuff around. It's really quite annoying. 10:10:25 erm months 10:10:51 cmm-: it's "clbuild record-dependencies", but you need all projecs checked out of that... 10:11:30 lichtblau: I see, I'll just delete every occurence of "editor-hints" in the dependencies file then (right?) 10:11:40 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-167-9.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:12:22 or better change them to say "named-readtables" 10:13:10 thanks! (always a relief to know something is not entirely my fault) 10:13:22 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-69875478366b5758] has left #lisp 10:14:33 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:14:34 lichtblau, You can use the mtime trick to not having to build everything to record dependencies 10:15:09 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-2cc15b1c00f9184e] has joined #lisp 10:16:38 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:16:45 or start using xcvb! :) 10:16:46 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:17:01 -!- bytecolor [n=user@32.153.46.71] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:17:12 trittweiler: I don't understand how mtime saves time for me. 10:18:24 The thing is that when recording dependencies, I want to make certain that I have up-to-date versions of the projects from upstream. That's around 230 version control system checkouts. 10:18:50 Once I have those projects downloaded, it doesn't make a huge difference whether I'd grovel dependencies for those projects that changes or just all of them. 10:19:00 I'm not _building_ them anyway, I'm "only" loading the .asd file. 10:19:44 There's even an assertion in there that keeps bogus .asd files from trying go ahead and load ASDF systems. 10:20:06 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-51-198.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:20:22 If xcvb has purely declarative dependencies in an easily parsable file, that would make the latter step easier, but not the downloading. 10:20:44 and if everything were using a modern version control system like CVS, you'd be able to update just the *.asd files! 10:21:02 If everyone switched to git, I could build a parallel "git fetch" and make that step fast, too. :-) I don't see that happening, though. 10:21:14 I think you need to check for updates for the whole world if you add a project 10:21:20 erm I don't think 10:21:28 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 10:23:31 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:23:53 trittweiler: my approach might not be ideal, but to be honest, I'm not very interested in spending time developing something minimally better. 10:24:01 Are you interested in taking over from me? ;-) 10:24:57 Sure if you're interested in taking something over from me! 10:26:01 Clearly we need more minions. Someone sent me a reply to my lisp project ad. 10:26:18 pass the project 10:26:29 He's interested in doing the cl-ebnf work 10:26:30 after I left clbuild unmaintained for a few months, various minions appaered 10:27:04 Perhaps I should just let it rot again, then they will come back. 10:27:17 f' muggets 10:29:15 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 10:30:35 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 10:30:57 -!- ASau [n=user@host65-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:31:10 ASau [n=user@host65-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 10:31:52 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 10:32:48 Nshag [n=shag@Mix-Orleans-106-1-50.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:32:57 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:34:32 salva [n=kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 10:38:40 -!- dwave is now known as asksol 10:40:00 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit ["so long."] 10:43:31 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B3E8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:13 udzinari [n=user@nat/ibm/x-b0ea2ca6a1da5f3a] has joined #lisp 10:51:14 thatdavidmiller [n=thatdavi@87-194-167-91.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:52:02 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:53:02 -!- udzinari [n=user@nat/ibm/x-b0ea2ca6a1da5f3a] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:56:07 udzinari [n=user@nat/ibm/x-a76b18963bfa64f9] has joined #lisp 10:56:16 Axius [n=ojof@92.84.8.213] has joined #lisp 10:57:53 -!- thatdavidmiller [n=thatdavi@87-194-167-91.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:59:53 egomosis_ [n=egomosis@58.20.34.95] has joined #lisp 10:59:56 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 11:00:13 hello 11:02:37 nipra__ [n=nipra@117.195.100.22] has joined #lisp 11:02:44 -!- nipra_ [n=nipra@117.195.103.255] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:02:51 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:03:04 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:35 levy [n=levy@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:07:02 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.84.8.213] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:11:20 chenfengyuan| [n=chenfeng@117.136.10.10] has joined #lisp 11:11:55 kami-` [n=user@p5B20C0AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:13:00 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-2cc15b1c00f9184e] has left #lisp 11:16:02 when did the backquote/quasiquote first originate? did Steele invent it? 11:16:06 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:16:10 -!- kami-` is now known as kami- 11:16:22 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-be6d78130caddc99] has joined #lisp 11:18:03 Hi levy. An hour ago, I pulled from dwim.hu/live and there were some patches related to filters. Are filters now expected to work? 11:20:02 kami-, somewhat, try typing transaction into the name field of dwim.hu / Source / Definition Browser, click checkmark (not automagic yet) and filter, should work 11:21:31 sbt: http://people.csail.mit.edu/alan/ftp/pepm99.ps.gz 11:22:28 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 11:22:29 lichblau: thanks 11:22:37 (specifically, the "History" section) 11:24:34 -!- egomosis_ [n=egomosis@58.20.34.95] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:24:43 levy: do you still have network problems? dwim.hu hangs 11:25:08 after I C-c C-c and C-c C-z to REPL using SLIME how do I get back to the buffer with source fast if I have horizontal split? 11:25:58 Good afternoon! 11:27:18 kami-, the network is still as slow as it was 11:27:43 the definition browser is clearly not as safe as it could be 11:27:56 there are nearly 35000 definitions if you fire a query without filter 11:28:09 and it's not checked now :( 11:29:56 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 11:31:09 levy: what should it find? I typed start in the 'Name' field and then 'Filter' and I get 39876 matches. 11:31:54 levy: with ~ for 'like' 11:32:17 kami-, don't forget to click on the checkmark 11:32:27 otherwise that part is ignored in the filter 11:32:42 levy: sorry, I overlooked that part of your message. 11:32:44 will do automatically on edit, but checked in yet 11:32:52 not 11:33:13 levy: yes! Now it works. 11:33:31 udzinari: don't know about horizontal split, but perhaps SLIME-SELECTOR l 11:33:38 (doesn't have a default keybinding, I believe) 11:34:04 egomosis_ [n=egomosis@58.20.34.95] has joined #lisp 11:34:20 kami-, that is mostly slow, because it searches in memory and might result in a big list 11:34:24 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=rot13@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:35:04 the other small icon on before each label is the *not* marker 11:35:15 which is hungarian at the moment ;-) 11:35:56 levy: will make-object-filter now work, too? 11:35:56 -!- ejs [n=eugen@213-117-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:36:20 lichtblau: thanks, exactly what I wanted. 11:36:56 kami-, I didn't know there's such a function 11:36:59 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:37:56 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-be6d78130caddc99] has left #lisp 11:37:58 -!- lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-208-60.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:37:59 kami-, but if you look at the code at http://dwim.hu/file/hu.dwim.home/source/screen.lisp 11:38:01 levy: sorry, I mean (make-filter 'person) 11:38:14 at the very end you'll see how the definition browser is created 11:38:32 kami-, should work 11:38:52 that is (make-filter 'definition :initial-alternative-type 't/detail/presentation) 11:39:16 the rest of that menu item is meta gui 11:39:24 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 11:39:33 levy: how far is login support? 11:40:44 kami-, this week I guess 11:41:05 lichtblau: can I bind to a key with an argument? "l" that is, so that it does not prompt? instead of just (global-set-key "\C-cs" 'slime-selector) 11:41:05 11:41:59 levy: that sounds great. I have my next presentation on Wednesday. :) 11:42:20 I've been using CL for quite some years and only just now used a special variable for the first time :) 11:42:39 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:21 bye 11:43:27 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d0668eb.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["in die pampa"] 11:43:29 Hi, does already exist anything to create an asdf project similar to the way grails does ? 11:43:30 kami-, do you have your own style or use the default? 11:43:34 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 11:43:43 levy: default 11:44:20 ok 11:44:31 levy: are persistent-processes revived, already? 11:46:12 udzinari: don't know. but you could bind the key to a helper function calling slime-recently-visited-buffer 11:46:15 -!- p_l [i=540dde94@gateway/web/freenode/x-bb7d29bea1795e6a] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 11:46:39 I'm searching something that allows me to call for example (create-asdf-project ...) (add-lisp-file :project ... :file .. :depends ...) 11:48:30 kami-, not yet, but they only need to follow the new naming scheme I think 11:50:09 billitch [n=billitch@p57A23EDE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:41 levy: then I will get back to you with questions, later. Will you be around for longer? 11:50:44 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:50:47 Hmm, I could really do with Slime showing in my Emacs buffer which defun-forms have been changed but not evaluated yet, but it seems non-trivial to make. 11:51:19 kami-, this week I work in CL ;-) 11:51:32 KatrinaTheLamia [n=rot13@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:43 aerique, there's the slime-editing-edits contrib but I think it solves the problem insufficiently 11:52:53 levy: I seem to be lucky! :) 11:52:53 slime-highlighting-edits 11:53:40 lichtblau: slime-selector changes current buffer.. C-x o goes to next split but not much use if you have more then 2 windows :/ 11:54:01 udzinari, Don't use more than two windows. Use multiple frames. 11:54:45 trittweiler: I meant horizontal splits, or am I missing something? 11:55:34 udzinari, I have two frames side by side, and in each frame at most two windows split horizontally 11:55:50 udzinari, You can create a new frame via C-x 5 2 11:55:56 trittweiler: thanks, i'll check it out 11:56:12 trittweiler: aha, looked it up already.. but still kinda lame 11:56:36 ejs [n=eugen@101-89-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:02 udzinari, You probably want to put (tool-bar-mode -1) in your .emacs 11:58:17 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:52 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:00:05 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 12:00:20 trittweiler: have it, but has nothing to do with navigating between windows > 2 in the same frame.. I will look more into it maybe I can make it jump between splits like C-x b does somehow 12:01:07 -!- chenfengyuan| [n=chenfeng@117.136.10.10] has quit ["used jmIrc"] 12:01:45 udzinari, There are modes which make C- etc. switch windows 12:02:23 The default way of navigating windows is kind of quirky indeed 12:03:02 Regardless of that, using more than two windows at the same time will only result in frustration 12:04:07 trittweiler: I need at least 3 to be comfortable :/ 12:04:19 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:59 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:05:42 asksol [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 12:05:48 udzinari, Hence I propose to use multiple frame, you can easily manage 4 windows that way 12:05:54 -!- poet [n=poet@unaffiliated/poet] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:07:22 poet [n=poet@unaffiliated/poet] has joined #lisp 12:08:55 trittweiler: thanks for suggestion, will do unless http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/WindMove sucks :) 12:09:13 Axius [n=ojof@92.85.218.13] has joined #lisp 12:10:02 udzinari, The problem is that Emacs will pop up new buffers all the time kind of randomly, destroying your window setup 12:10:42 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:12:46 trittweiler: you are right, but it kind of tends to use the one below current buffer, I mostly can arrange it so it is tolarable this far 12:13:10 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.85.218.13] has quit [Client Quit] 12:13:22 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:15:50 levy: in the old code base, I had a separate (defpackage :-presentation). Is that still recommended? 12:17:42 kami-, I don't know, it depends, having a separate package may or may not help you 12:19:08 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:20:30 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 12:23:57 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-51-198.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 12:24:19 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 12:24:46 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 12:26:50 -!- sbt [n=sbt@234.80-203-17.nextgentel.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:27:10 dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:21 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:34:47 angel_ [n=angel@221.223.126.42] has joined #lisp 12:35:59 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 12:36:16 s0ber_ [n=s0ber@114-45-233-227.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:39:28 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-174-244.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:42:15 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:42:59 kami-, I pushed you patches to head, don't when they arrive to live though 12:47:12 -!- elurin`` [n=user@81.213.200.208] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:47:50 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:32 jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:49:23 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:51:36 -!- asksol [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit [] 12:56:28 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:57:18 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-60-82.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:00:23 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.219.111] has joined #lisp 13:01:23 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 13:02:02 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@117.195.100.22] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:02:22 nipra__ [n=nipra@117.195.99.249] has joined #lisp 13:04:33 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:05:28 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:07:56 -!- angel_ [n=angel@221.223.126.42] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:08:52 -!- s0ber_ [n=s0ber@114-45-233-227.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:09:05 s0ber [n=s0ber@114-45-233-227.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:01 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:14:55 G'morning all. 13:15:29 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 13:15:44 rlarson89 [n=reid89@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:22:35 hey nyef 13:23:06 -!- demmel [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:23:16 demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 13:25:30 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:26:49 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:14 levy: thanks. Could you apply them without changes? 13:31:32 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:31:52 -!- leadnose [i=leadnose@xob.kapsi.fi] has left #lisp 13:32:56 egomosis [n=egomosis@58.20.34.95] has joined #lisp 13:33:38 _YKY_ [i=YKY@n11649126236.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 13:34:01 <_YKY_> I tried to setf a variable and it doesn't change, why? 13:35:09 kami-, I did even though some changes are still to be done 13:36:44 levy: ok. I have a problem here: hu.dwim.perec:ip-address is not found. Which indicates that perec+iolib was not loaded. Does my package have to depend on both? Will the build system then load perec+iolib automatically? 13:37:09 kami-, no, you need to explicitly depend on it 13:37:23 kami-, depend on :hu.dwim.perec+iolib 13:37:26 asdf-system-connections are not reliable 13:37:28 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:39:11 ok. 13:40:48 this one goes straight to the logs, hopefully, at it's an undocumented little tricky bastard of an issue: 13:41:43 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:42:03 In CLSQL, if you're connecting to an existing database, all results will be lists. If you want objects to be returned, evaluate the def-view-class again but DON'T evaluate create-view-from-class!!11one 13:42:11 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-30-217.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:42:25 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.212.98] has joined #lisp 13:42:45 it bit me really hard months ago and i just figured it out by accident while doing other things 13:42:48 <_YKY_> (Nevermind... problem solved...) 13:44:03 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:29 I am wondering if there is a user-mode way to run a process under a user-specified PID :-P 13:45:52 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-129-185.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:45:59 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:48:02 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:48 fjji [n=ojof@92.82.88.28] has joined #lisp 13:49:31 levy, attila_lendvai: I get "The name "HU.DWIM.PEREC+IOLIB" does not designate any package." when loading my package although I have it both in .asd :depends-on and in defpackage :use 13:49:47 kami-, that's only for the .asdf 13:49:50 -f 13:50:00 -!- fjji [n=ojof@92.82.88.28] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:51:05 not again, sbcl.org still dispensing unithread builds for linux? booo! 13:52:26 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:38 Axius [n=ojof@92.82.88.28] has joined #lisp 13:52:52 why not use git to upgrade (and even downgrade if something goes wrong!), fusss ? :) 13:53:05 attila_lendvai: sorry, I don't get it. 13:53:39 lnostdal: to manage sbcl builds? 13:53:45 kami-, you need to depend (asdf) on :hu.dwim.perec+iolib, and :use hu.dwim.perec 13:54:30 fusss, hm, i'm not sure i see the connection 13:54:54 attila_lendvai: now I understand. I don't have to (defpackage (:use perec+iolib)) 13:55:00 lnostdal: you are the one who recommended I use git, i am not sure how 13:56:47 I think I will provide thread-enabled x86 and amd64 binary builds for releases for anyone who wants 'em. 13:56:55 they are easy to make. 13:57:39 just building one now as well 13:58:06 $ cat customize-target-features.lisp => (lambda (list) (pushnew :sb-thread list) list) $ git pull $ nice sh make.sh SBCL_HOME= INSTALL_ROOT=~/programming/sbcl-bin sh install.sh then symlink ~/bin/sbcl -> /home/lnostdal/programming/sbcl-bin/bin/sbcl 13:58:19 when i sell roflbot, i was telling people to get it from sbcl.org, but now i just provide my own. 13:58:32 replace the "git pull" step with use of gitk to checkout the exact version you want 13:59:02 the install target can be anything you want .. e.g. ..sbcl-bin can itself be a symlink so you can have multiple sbcl installs in your home-folder 13:59:24 Xach: sell roflbot? 13:59:35 fusss: yes 14:00:11 *Xach* sells roflbot to non-lisp-savvy website operators, and so far it has worked out ok 14:00:42 are you selling the website, or are you selling USB sticks with linux, sbcl, and an http stack to allow people captionize Billy O' photos in the comfort and privacy of their own living rooms? 14:00:53 oh 14:01:14 that's actually interesting 14:01:18 selling a bundle that has a couple steps to set up and run, and from there they customize it to fit into their website. 14:01:26 ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:01:35 trollcats.com is my most successful customer 14:01:57 fucking aye! 14:02:01 Xach, why don't you run a service? people want a one-time price? 14:02:18 attila_lendvai: let them buy it; service leaves room for cancellation 14:02:37 better yet, let them buy it, and pay him hosting fees to keep it running. 14:02:40 attila_lendvai: Right now I want a one-time contact and payment. I don't have time to manage and maintain a service in a way I'd be proud of. 14:02:58 attila_lendvai: Right now I can reboot my server with only one person complaining: me :) 14:03:01 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:03:15 With this setup, they pay me once, I help set it up if needed, and that's that. 14:03:34 make sense 14:03:45 I'd like to set it up as a service some day, but right now the time and effort equation isn't right. 14:03:50 that's pretty cool 14:04:20 Especially if I could set up a service for the many people who ask "Is it a WordPress plugin?" 14:04:43 ugh 14:05:31 gaze [n=gaze@c-67-170-217-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:33 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.82.88.28] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:08:03 demmeln1 [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:09:19 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:10:25 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:12:26 *fusss* nudges the younglings towards semantic web and data mining stuff, aka bayesian web scrapping. 14:13:00 wget + P(A|B) + any language you want + moolah :-) 14:13:58 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:15:13 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:28 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148] has quit ["leaving"] 14:17:30 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.198.29] has joined #lisp 14:17:41 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:18:03 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-161.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 14:18:20 hello 14:18:22 pkhuong: remind me why it's better to align the inline-constants section to 64 bytes instead of just 16 always? 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14:42:43 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:42:46 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 14:42:55 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.78.248] has quit ["leaving"] 14:43:59 -!- udzinari [n=user@nat/ibm/x-a76b18963bfa64f9] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:44:07 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:44:09 nyef pasted "An (ill-advised) initial workaround for people using sb-posix:fork for anything other than an immediate execve or similar" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89679 14:45:35 *Xach* is a sucker for ill-advised workarounds 14:45:45 Note that it doesn't clean up *all-threads*, and I somehow doubt it ends up cleaning up all_threads either, but at least the child survives a GC with this. 14:46:45 Actually, the entire idea of doing anything other than an exec post-fork is ill-advised, and if you're doing even that much you should be running within a without-gcing. 14:46:58 roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 14:47:30 I -do- like the notion that if we control process forking that we can re-create the dead threads in-place without losing their context. 14:47:46 udzinari [n=user@nat/ibm/x-19a80c6a7cfb47bb] has joined #lisp 14:48:22 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 14:49:08 How is a CLIM presentation-to-command translator supposed to work if the command it translates to has more than one argument? 14:49:20 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 14:49:21 Badly? 14:49:56 The fact that it works badly in McCLIM doesn't mean it is *supposed* to work that way. :) 14:51:30 I would have thought that returning something like `(,object ,*unsupplied-argument-marker*) would work, and have the command loop figure out the rest, but the command is called directly, so instead one has to do something like `(,object ,(accept 'whatever-type-the-argument-needs)). 14:51:51 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:51:51 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 14:54:02 Actually, I think this ties into PCLSRing quite well... 14:54:57 minion: What does PCLSR stand for? 14:54:58 Pinkberry Chloranemic Leprosity Serfism Roadlike 14:55:01 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.212.98] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:55:16 I'm going to have to add the notion of a GC-stop pre-fork to the half-formed idea that I already have. 14:55:50 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-241-17.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:56:48 *froydnj* tries to convince nyef that friends don't let friends combine fork with threads 14:57:58 froydnj: Don't try to convince me, I'm one of the maniacs who might be able to make it work. Try to convince lpolzer! 14:58:28 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 14:58:38 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2046.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:06 Besides, I already know that it's a bad idea without full PCLSRing, and possibly won't even work with full PCLSRing due to social issues. 15:01:04 attila_lendvai, levy: what is the most debugging friendly way of starting the dwim server? startup-dwim-server blocks the repl. Is there another way? 15:01:47 kami-: Have you considered (make-thread (lambda () (startup-dwim-server))) or (startup-dwim-server :new-thread t)? 15:02:25 kami-, we use that function from production environment only 15:02:53 (It's a DWIM server, it should know how to deal with whatever random arguments passed to it, right?) 15:02:55 from the reply you could use hu.dwim.wui::startup-server, but that only starts the user interface 15:03:02 kami-, the thread that calls s-d-s will drive the timer, too. you need a thread for it... 15:03:21 nyef, right as soon as I mean that what you mean, which is false in this case ;-) 15:07:52 -!- raptelan [n=Casey@209.40.204.178] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:08:00 froydnj: ideally, data and instructions don't share cache lines.. 15:08:18 beach, there's a paper by Alan Bawden somewhere.. 15:09:03 levy: previously, I even used (make-thread ... (startup-cluster-node...). That would be OK, too? 15:09:42 PCLSRing is basically forcing the visible state of the execution of a process to be consistent with regards to some arbitrary invariant. The classic implementation was for the invariant that system-calls are atomic, and thus all process states were seen to be in user-mode and never kernel-mode. 15:10:11 -!- demmeln1 [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:10:18 deepfire: about what? 15:10:23 -!- salva [n=kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:10:30 the cheap version of which gives you EINTR (ah unix ;). 15:11:19 Ah, yes. Worse is better. 15:11:28 (So, how do we win big?) 15:11:48 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:11:48 selling copies of roflbot software! 15:12:15 You mean... you'll pay commissions if we bring you clients? 15:12:56 sorry, it is not a scalable big winning. 15:13:08 kami-, startup-dwim-server function installs a sigint handler and returns when a sigint is sent to the process. it's really something that you want to call when you start it as a unix service, for which there are examples in hu.dwim.home 15:13:21 So... it's a little big win? 15:13:33 kami-, if you just work on stuff then call wui::startup-server for now 15:13:52 pkhuong: hmph 15:14:04 attila_lendvai: OK. Thanks. 15:14:12 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:15:07 froydnj: also, ideally we don't have undefined instructions too close after real instructions (especially after an indirect branch), to avoid confusing the decoder. 15:16:25 milanj [n=milan@93.86.52.129] has joined #lisp 15:17:12 grouzen_ [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 15:17:12 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:17:25 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 15:19:00 billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-210-30.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:26 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.247.175] has joined #lisp 15:19:28 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:09 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 15:30:05 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 15:30:37 -!- egomosis_ [n=egomosis@58.20.34.95] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:32:02 -!- egomosis [n=egomosis@58.20.34.95] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:32:11 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-79-115-13.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:33:17 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 15:34:19 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has joined #lisp 15:35:34 I've sent a mail to mcclim-devel if any of the mods is reading 15:35:46 to accept it :) 15:36:10 ziga`: I might have time to read it soon. 15:36:54 drgnvale [n=acristin@209.16.73.144] has joined #lisp 15:37:11 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-130-194.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:37:36 I'm not registered so my mail probably needs mod-approval 15:37:42 beach: ok 15:39:55 beach, http://www.linearity.org/bawden/ftp/pclsr.memo.gz 15:42:48 ziga`: Possibly. I might not be the admin of the list, because I haven't received any messages. Perhaps it's antifuchs. 15:42:54 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:00 ziga`: The easiest would be to become a member. 15:43:23 beach: will do 15:51:06 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 15:51:37 deepfire: It gives me a timeout. I'll try later. Thanks! 15:54:52 -!- coyo is now known as coyo[school] 15:55:38 beach: looks like it went through now 16:00:43 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:01:50 dv___ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:02:09 -!- sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:02:35 sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 16:06:10 space-cadet [n=jason@pool-74-100-23-18.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:31 rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:07:08 salva [n=kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 16:07:58 sytse_ [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 16:08:21 -!- sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:08:41 mvillene1ve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:09 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 16:17:05 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-210-30.taconic.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:17:51 billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-210-30.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:27 -!- billitch [n=billitch@p57A23EDE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 16:19:39 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:19:51 -!- sytse_ [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:19:53 sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 16:21:54 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 16:22:49 -!- ASau [n=user@host65-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["bye"] 16:23:31 -!- grouzen_ [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:23:46 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 16:29:07 ziga`: It did! 16:30:18 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-191-131.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 16:30:29 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 16:31:00 etate [n=et4te@ip503c4d9b.speed.planet.nl] has joined #lisp 16:31:07 hey is anyone here using core server? 16:31:08 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:31:29 levy: my main entry-point gets called, but the result is an empty page, although my make-frame-component is almost a copy of hu.dwim.home's 16:31:29 16:31:38 kami- pasted "dwim entry-point with no result " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89685 16:33:17 kami-, :ensure-frame #f? 16:33:39 -!- nullman [n=nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 16:33:43 nullman [n=nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:07 kami-, (root-component-of *frame*) should die hard when you visit the entry point the first time... 16:34:31 attila_lendvai: I first tried with #t 16:34:39 ia_ [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 16:34:42 attila_lendvai: then I fiddled with everything 16:35:09 if you want to use components, then :ensure-frame needs to be #t, that's for sure 16:35:16 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:35:30 is (setf wui::*debug-on-error* t) ? 16:35:45 yes 16:37:08 kami-, do you have firebug installed? is there an error while the page is loaded? 16:37:40 attila_lendvai: firebug is active and shows no errors. 16:38:34 attila_lendvai: although the page source doesn't leave much room for errors:

16:38:34   
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16:40:24  attila_lendvai: found the error! in *inferior-lisp*
16:41:48  kami-, you mean a log statement or an error printed?
16:42:23  wait. I'm trying to paste it
16:43:30  copying long backtraces in a screen ssh session is tedious
16:43:34 demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp
16:44:01  kami-, you should not get backtraces in the inferior buffer, that's a bug in itself
16:44:35  attila_lendvai: it's because the internal.server.error.title/message are not found in locale DE
16:44:42 coyo [i=alex@144.162.133.187] has joined #lisp
16:45:18  hrm
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16:46:13  attila_lendvai: well, wui::*debug-on-error* should be respected, though
16:46:41  this error comes from inside the error handling, which in that case detects the situation and tries to log a backtrace
16:46:50  there are 3 layers of error handlers
16:47:00 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."]
16:47:08  kami- annotated #89685 "backtrace hidden in *inferior-lisp*" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89685#1
16:48:08  kami-, you should always include the en locale as the last locale for the application
16:48:54  kami-, or make sure you have all the functional resources localized for you last locale
16:49:02  also known as the fallback-locale
16:50:59  attila_lendvai: I had it the wrong way (en de) because I didn't know the order matters
16:52:10  attila_lendvai: _with_ a backtrace, the error is easy to spot: "There is no applicable method for the generic function # kami-, erm, i was wrong. there's a binging for (*fallback-locale-for-functional-resources* (default-locale-of application))...
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16:54:37  nyef, I'm here
16:54:51  kami-, i'll have to think about this a bit more. TODO's saved to the file
16:55:22  attila_lendvai: the locale behaviour doesn't bother me as much as the error itself: I have a method make-frame-component-with-content
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16:57:15  kami-, you probably have an error in some render method. but the slime debugger should come up, not trying to render an error page (which then failed)
16:57:18 *attila_lendvai* needs to leave
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16:59:53  lpolzer: As you may have noticed, I started looking into the threads and fork issue.
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17:00:38  nyef, yes I just read your mail
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17:02:28  nyef, looks like the issue is much more involved than it seemed at first.
17:02:49  I guess the only sane thing would be removing all threads except one and then forking?
17:03:39  Yes, killing your threads pre-fork is the beginning of sanity. At the same time, it is not sufficient, may not be desireable, and may not be required. It's more than a little situational.
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17:09:20  the normal POSIX way to do things is totally hackish but amazingly, actually works fine in almost all situations.
17:10:53  Yet another case of worse is better.
17:11:09  what is the normal POSIX way?
17:11:23 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp
17:11:28  Greetings.
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17:12:08  kami-, during development you should not see the error page
17:12:11  Well, it starts with EAGAIN instead of fixing the process state up to automatically re-enter the interrupted syscall...
17:12:16  that is not meant to be fore the developer
17:12:22  cmm-: pthread_atfork
17:12:39  foom: ah.  I'm so out of date
17:13:00  cmm-: all the "important" libraries register pthread_atfork handlers for all the "important" locks that need to be in a useful state at the time of fork
17:13:17  for example, the lock used by libc for malloc.
17:13:50  levy: sldb doesn't pop up, although I have *debug-on-error* set to T, and running-in-test-mode? of my app, also
17:14:22  and is there a useful safe default for, say, bordeaux-threads locks?
17:14:33 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp
17:14:40  since, most of the time, you don't need everything in *your* software to work after a fork, most libraries don't bother to register atfork handlers, and it doesn't matter.
17:15:06  cmm-: pre-fork handler acquires the lock. post-fork handler in both parent and child releases the lock.
17:15:10  This, of course, leaves the few times when it -does- matter as an unsolved problem.
17:15:30  but hey, implementation simplicity
17:15:31  nyef: well, it's not unsolved: your app *can* register atfork handlers too. :)
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17:15:52  foom: But if the libraries that you're using don't automatically clean up right?
17:15:59  kami-, hu.dwim.util::*debug-on-error*  ??
17:16:11  nyed: fix them! open sores FTW! :)
17:16:23  error handling is factored out to the util, because other libs need that too
17:16:29  And then you get the fun case where your runtime is capable of post-fork thread resurrection.
17:17:00  That's easier: you don't need to deal with locks at all!
17:17:13 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit []
17:17:17  Of course, it does make it a bit fun to do fork()/exec()
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17:17:36  Sure, but you do get to deal with the cases where you want some of your threads to do something different in the child than in the parent...
17:17:37  since god knows what other code is running while you're trying to prepare your process for the exec call. :)
17:17:39  levy: I had a (setf hu.dwim.wui::*debug-on-error* t). util:*d-o-e* is also set. Does wui re-export it?
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17:18:13  Yeah, I dunno, forkall() really seems to have quite limited (or possibly even no) utility, to me.
17:18:35  looks like microsoft had it right by not bothering with fork at all :)
17:18:38  It's theoretically pure, but beyond that...
17:18:47  levy: anyway, it's T
17:18:54  cmm-: eh...fork()/dostuff()/exec() is a really nice API.
17:19:00  cmm-: Microsoft got a surprising number of things right.
17:19:18  all you need to do is make sure the system is in a good enough state that the things you want to do in dostuff() are sane.
17:19:29  nyef: pretty much everything apart from the bloody ecosystem, yeah
17:19:45 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp
17:19:46  using fork from a threaded process for anything else is really pushing your luck...
17:20:18 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
17:20:19  Well, it's not even that... If you're going to be cancelling the threads anyway, you might still want to run arbitrary cleanups on the child-process side.
17:21:25 -!- mvillene1ve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
17:21:27  But you normally don't need to. All you care about is a very limited amount of functionality needed to make it to the exec call.
17:21:59  kami-, backtrace?
17:22:20  I'm not arguing that, I'm just saying that there are cases when you -do- need to.
17:22:28  levy: http://paste.lisp.org/display/89685#1
17:22:53  how do you ensure no threads open sockets right before exec?
17:23:33  kami-, try localizing RENDER-FAILED-TO-LOAD-PAGE in the de locale
17:24:08  lhz: Oh, that's easy: Socket opening and registering the cleanup handler for the socket is required to be atomic with regard to fork.
17:24:41  levy: will do
17:25:08  kami-, how is your make-frame-component-with-content defined?
17:25:32  something like (def layered-method make-frame-component-with-content ((application home-application) session frame content) ...?
17:25:49  also check the package HU.DWIM.WUI:MAKE-FRAME-COMPONENT-WITH-CONTENT
17:26:07  anyone know how to print a puri URI as just a URL string?
17:26:41  puri has all these methods to get get URI components, and I really couldn't be bothered to construct it all back manually
17:26:50  puri-to-string would be nice
17:27:32  (puri:render-uri ... nil)
17:29:07  exceptional lichtblau! thanks a million
17:31:15  fusss: your PHPers can't handle URIs? :)
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17:31:49  :-P
17:31:55  add the time spent by everyone who has had to search for RENDER-URI in the past, and someone could have written a new URI library in the same time ;-)
17:32:31  felideon: we're now separate; they do UI, I do R&D
17:32:38  Does anyone know of a with-open-modular-arith macro? I'm working through some older lisp code circa 1994. It does not define that macro, so I'm assuming it was some common macro in use at the time.
17:32:47 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.30.96] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
17:33:32  from the first page of google search results: http://www.cs.unm.edu/~madhu/clisp/simlab/weyl/src/matrix.lisp
17:33:56  lichtblau: Well, that is code I'm working through. That is not the definition in that file, it is the use.
17:35:23  the defmacro in that file is not the one you're looking for, despite being in the same file?
17:35:34  kami- annotated #89685 "make-frame-component-with-content" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89685#2
17:35:55  lichtblau: Thanks, need more coffee, missed it.
17:36:00  levy: that's the definition ^ and the package seems to be OK, too.
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17:40:32  kami-, if all those symbols are in the right package (including the class name) then I don't know
17:40:55  it's a simple layered function
17:42:21  levy: what can I do to have sldb again in case of an error?
17:42:32  levy: it would be easier to inspect values etc.
17:43:23  kami-, *debug-on-error* should be enough, I don't do anything else in hu.dwim.home
17:43:56  if you click the Debug / Misc / Action time error
17:44:08  then the debugger should come up from handling an action
17:44:13  there is also a render time error test
17:44:23  but for that you need to have a working hu.dwim.home
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17:44:58  kami-, with these menu items you can easily test error handling too through the client
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17:46:47 -!- felideon is now known as felideon_away
17:47:11  #lisp should require a 2 drink minimum before posting. Either liquor or coffee. :-)
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17:48:12  Caffine is divine, but liquor is quicker?
17:48:27  Doesn't quite sound right.
17:49:11  maybe s/divine/pristine
17:49:15  it would rhyme better
17:49:35  levy: I rerun build.sh -d -l -w fsj after adding the localisation. Now it works.
17:49:38 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK
17:49:43  So, I have a possible fix for bug 310132 (fasdump failure with struct in arglist), but I don't know if it's possible to break it some other way.
17:50:08  eihrul: It rhymes better, but doesn't make as much sense, unfortunately.
17:50:44 -!- ziga` [n=user@BSN-142-126-33.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
17:50:46  maybe an -een word
17:51:07 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-68-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
17:51:23  Or we could go with the coffee version and find a -ee word...
17:51:38  http://www.wordbyletter.com/suffixes/words_finishing_with_ine.php
17:51:55  http://www.wordbyletter.com/suffixes/words_finishing_with_een.php
17:51:57  kami-, did it solve the debugger issue?
17:52:04  Or maybe use tea instead, which gives us the option of -ee or -ay words.
17:52:08 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp
17:52:15  Caffeine is keen.
17:52:20 prip [n=_prip@host61-121-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp
17:52:29  That works, I guess.
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17:54:17  But why, pray tell, are we perverting Ogden Nash?
17:54:52  turnabout is fair play
17:54:58  Well, one reason is the proposed (presumably in jest) two-drink minimum. And another is "why not?"
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17:56:07 *stassats* completed his minimum in advance for a week
17:56:20  I have to have at least two drinks before posting in #lisp?
17:58:03  levy: no. Errors are still only printed to *inferior-lisp* .
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17:58:47  levy: and I get more cl-l10n errors (plural-of). I'll remove the de locale.
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17:59:29  eihrul: unpossible! that site has a list of words that "rhyme" with orange
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18:05:02  ... Wha? Entry analysis occurs before ir2-conversion, but ir2-conversion can... Oh, right, doesn't matter, the new entries from ir2-conversion of closures don't end up on the list of entries for the ir2-component.
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18:06:58  kami-, I have to leave now, when attila is online ask him about this error handling, because that is his stuff
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18:39:16  Good evening!
18:39:22  Hello beach.
18:39:40  Is it just me, or is it very quiet here these days?
18:40:04  It's been quiet the past couple days. I'm not sure I've been paying much attention before that.
18:41:05 Alabaman_ [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp
18:41:20  For programming projects this year, I am pretty sure to suggest "Stamp, the tag-based email reader" and "An information for the CS department in Bordeaux", but I would like to have at least one more.
18:42:23  I am debating between "Document recovery system", "Optical Music Recognition system", "Percussion notation for Gsharp", and a few more.
18:42:23 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-30-217.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp
18:43:29  Optical music recognition is where you feed in the video part of a music video and it gives you back the sheet music?
18:43:30  Let me remind you that you are free to suggest projects, but they have to be "hosted" by someone here (I could do that if I want).
18:44:06  nyef: Not quite, no.  You feed it image files of a score, and out comes a score in (say) MusicXML.
18:44:20  Yeah, I figured that would be more likely.
18:44:30  nyef: Nice idea though.
18:45:14  How about something random, like... a reimplementation of Linux's udevd in common lisp as a literate program?
18:45:55  nyef: Write up what you want and I'll screen it.
18:46:40  That was at least partly in jest.
18:46:50  Sure.
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18:48:42  nyef: My point is: requests from outside the university are sometimes considered more "serious" so as giving more experience.  It will look like you are some independent source of demands, even though we are communicating about it.
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18:49:02  Ah.
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18:52:20  That said, on the average, they are not that good.  You might be lucky, but most of the good ones choose "sexier" subjects that they estimate more of an investmetn into future employability.
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19:01:57 -!- highb is now known as NotBoogles
19:02:26  Anyway, you have two weeks to suggest projects.
19:02:46 -!- NotBoogles is now known as highb
19:03:05 -!- highb is now known as NotBoogles
19:03:08  SBCL compiler hackers: Does http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/nyef.git?a=commitdiff;h=302f438a02df597babb03545805abae182ba8657 look good?
19:03:32 -!- NotBoogles is now known as highb
19:04:06 *froydnj* is disappointed sbcl doesn't support inline/notinline properly on local functions
19:06:25  nyef: that looks reasonable
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19:07:06  I'm just worried because it seems that an entry-info can be computed more than once.
19:07:07 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan
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19:07:38  And I don't know if that would cause problems or not.
19:08:35  ah, hm
19:09:26  I also don't know that the code that implies that an entry-info can be computed more than once isn't stale.
19:10:19  It's one of those things where I'm really badly unfamiliar with this part of the code and there's no obvious documentation on why anything is happening.
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19:10:44 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre
19:11:43  nyef: I suspect you want nikodemus (or apd), both of whom are best contacted through mail
19:11:57  alternatively, you want pfdietz' random tester
19:12:50  Fair enough. Thank you.
19:13:16  I mean, the comment looks reasonable, but I'm certainly not familiar enough with the code to think through the implications
19:13:44  in other news, at one patch to my external-formats branch a day I'm currently finding bugs faster than fixing them
19:13:46  I also find that "maybe-emit-make-load-forms" is a poor name for a function.
19:14:03  After a 5h C++-athon, I'm in no condition to even think about this (:
19:14:31  also, I've just changed my gnus mail splitting, so I need test cases
19:14:48  everyone please send mail, commit stuff, talk on obscure mailing lists that I've forgotten I'm subscribed to
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19:18:17  So, I'm thinking that an interesting start to making fork not suck in SBCL might be pthread_atfork(gc_stop_the_world, gc_start_the_world, NULL), wihch would grant the runtime access to the full register state of each thread at fork time, and the knowledge that no thread is badly savaging the GC invariants other than the current one (and killing off all the other threads without cleaning up afterwards is pretty savage).
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19:22:47  it's the kind of thing uncivilized people do, for sure
19:23:42 -!- felideon_away is now known as felideon
19:23:50  Err...sort of off topic but I seem to recall that someone was working on Concurrent GC for SBCL this summer. Anyone know what happened to that?
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19:24:15  you recall wrongly
19:24:26  It's a perpetual wishlist item, though.
19:24:33 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp
19:24:42  Well, darn. Thanks guys.
19:24:43  :)
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19:25:00  Feel free to make it happen yourself. ^_-
19:25:36  nyef: Haha. It's my next project, to be sure. ;)
19:25:40  luis was working on some gc improvements
19:25:40  stassats, memo from tcr: would be cool if you could add swank-match.lisp to swank.asd
19:25:58  stassats: Thanks.
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19:26:09  stassats: that memo was rather old
19:26:34  ok
19:26:37  stassats: thanks for the infinite loop quick fix, I fixed it more properly meanwhile
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19:28:10  stassats: the first definition uses slime-enclosing-form-specs; that function and the other cruft in slime-parse.el is supposed to go
19:28:12  froydnj: you've measured sbcl octets utf-8 speed, haven't you?  And other people seem to say that it's slow, don't they?
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19:29:42  tcr: i thought so, otherwise i'd just have the second one removed
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19:34:25  it's just that a lot of stuff depends on slime-enclosing-form-specs
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19:39:58  Krystof: um, a while ago.  I think string->octets is pretty comparable to anything out there, but octets->string is rather slow
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19:41:37 *froydnj* wonders how much faster things would get if VECTOR-PUSH-EXTEND got the AREF treatment, including specialized re-allocation and REPLACE
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19:43:12  I was wondering earlier if there were any transforms for LENGTH when called on lists when the result was known to be used in a comparison ((= (length foo) 2), for example).
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19:44:03  python is generally ignorant of optimizing forms based on their context
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19:45:36  the lone exceptions being some SAP bits and DATA-VECTOR-{REF,SET}-WITH-OFFSET
19:46:04  And maybe sb-alien?
19:46:10  how is that done? traversing the cfg backwards?
19:46:40  maybe something in sb-alien, though I don't recall anything
19:47:23  Forcing certain alien values to the heap if they "escape" comes to mind.
19:47:42  tcr: nyef: looking for uses of EXTRACT-FUN-ARGS and SPLICE-FUN-ARGS should yield most of the relevant places
19:47:49  nyef: oh?  interesting...
19:48:28  For that matter, isn't modular arithmetic an example of this as well?
19:48:48  oh, very true.
19:50:13 *froydnj* will have to have a look at the sb-alien bits to see what nyef is talking about
19:50:29  There seems to be a principle of minimization somewhere in here.
19:51:17 mstevens [n=mstevens@198.95.2.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp
19:51:18  ?
19:51:24  Information minimization in the case of modular arithmetic and the hypothetical list-length transforms, and minimization of heap allocation in the case of sb-alien.
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19:56:28  froydnj: ok, good.  It's string->octets that I'm pessimizing, and I say "good" because I couldn't see how it could be any faster and even vaguely correct
19:56:55  I would like to see vector-push-extend on ub8 vectors at least optimized, and probably also ub8-streams like string streams
19:57:50  re: ub8-streams, yes *please*
19:57:51  apd had a pattern-matching ir1optimizer out there somewhere
19:58:35 *Krystof* writes evil macro code in utf8->octets
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20:00:05 *froydnj* noticed the other day that sbcl's implementation of WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING fails to conform to ANSI, though usefully so
20:00:31 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
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20:01:27  don't tell me!  I might fix it
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20:01:31  are there such a thing as a ffi for python?
20:02:04  python is the compiler inside of SBCL and CMUCL
20:02:21  sorry, python the lang
20:02:28  wrong channel
20:02:32  but python-the-language does have an FFI... that's the whole purpose of it
20:02:44 dmiles [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
20:02:44  no, i want to call python via lisp
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20:02:56  froydnj: how so?
20:02:59  minion: cl-python?
20:03:00  Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``cl-python''.
20:03:18  minion: clpython?
20:03:18  Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``clpython''.
20:03:30  cl-python is an implementation of phython the language in CL, right?
20:03:34  right
20:03:54  so it would work for you, proun... except when it doesn't :)
20:03:55  proun, i've never done this and i don't know if it correct or common .. but python has eval, no? .. just send some python code that calls python functions to python
20:04:01  yes: http://common-lisp.net/project/clpython/
20:04:09  Xach: WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING with a user-provided fill-pointer'd but non-adjustable string will adjust it beyond its specified length if sufficient data is written to it
20:04:15  (I think)
20:04:35  taking a look clpython
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20:06:34  Xach: and since WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING appends "as if by use of VECTOR-PUSH-EXTEND", the current behavior is non-ANSI
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20:07:11  proun: http://python.org/doc/2.5.2/ext/callingPython.html   calling python from C. Not exactly what you wanted, but you might be able to work something out from that.
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20:08:25  thanks, maybe between that and cffi i can cobble something together
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20:09:53  froydnj: I don't quite get it.
20:09:57  froydnj: isn't a :fill-pointered string "actually adjustable" in sbcl?
20:10:15  what Krystof said.
20:10:17  froydnj: I think that's allowed
20:10:40  yeah, just because you asked for just a fill pointer doesn't mean you get JUST a fill pointer.
20:11:00  impls are allowed to "upgrade" features as well as types
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20:12:06  oh, i think i see.
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20:12:26  huh, I learned something else today
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20:13:07 *froydnj* did not know about "actually adjustable"
20:14:12 *Xach* eyes froydnj, scribbles something in his notebook 
20:14:40  Xach: heh
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20:17:16  I'm still not happy with my functional decomposition of formula propagation, but I guess I might as well check it in
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20:17:49  if anyone's interested in a competitor to cells, check out formulate in cl.net/project/rjain-utils/cvsroot
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20:19:41  Would anyone accept the argument that the minimum useful support of long-floats in SBCL would involve being able to manipulate the machine data format for long-floats and convert them (lossily, obviously) to double-floats?
20:20:40  Even if they're useless for direct mathematical operations, being able to deal with them as first-class objects that aren't just a bunch of bits somewhere would be helpful for dealing with register contexts on x86 and x86-64.
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20:21:17  is it that hard to write arithmetic ops for them?
20:21:22  unoptimized
20:21:37  I don't know.
20:22:19 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-191-131.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit []
20:22:33  But my feeling is that a more restricted baseline would be easier to implement, which would at least allow us -some- options in terms of dealing with them.
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20:23:11  you could take the Factor approach, where ops on long-floats are just call outs to C
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20:23:54  I was rather attempting to avoid having to define most of the ops on long-floats in the first place.
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20:24:55  Essentially, obtain a baseline which allows for having more of the system not suck, then worry about excellence.
20:25:15  why would being able to fling the bits around be useful?
20:25:23 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2046.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20:25:47  Because it would allow some level of access to the float registers in a debug context on x86oids.
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20:26:07  nyef: I wouldn't object to how you're proposing to do it.
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20:27:26  Basically, split the task of making long-floats work right into two subtasks, and define the results of the first subtask as "good enough for some things".
20:27:56  something is better than nothing, I say
20:28:27  if someone finds them useful enough that they want arith ops on them, they might just implement them for you anyway
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20:30:17  well, theoretically, a good chunk of code exists to make them work already, but I doubt anybody has enabled that build feature in several years
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20:34:28  several bits are stubbed out, and they can't possibly cross-compile correctly as-is from a non-long-float-supporting xc host
20:34:41  of course "correct" is the enemy of "useful"
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20:58:36  froydnj: comments, if any, on the latest patch in http://rvw.doc.gold.ac.uk/sullivan/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=sbcl.git welcome
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21:09:41  LiamH: Hi
21:09:41  Sikander, memo from LiamH: Do a fresh pull; I have unified all the forward functions into one file.  The examples look like they are working, but I don't have anything to compare them to.   Does this make sense?
21:09:55  Aha
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21:12:23  "Handle null-termination on a successful conversion of an empty range of a nil array." ...awful
21:13:30  Krystof: if you like, that KLUDGE in ASCII-BASH could be removed by just specified :INITIAL-ELEMENT; I think the FILL will be optimized away
21:13:58  So, it occurs to me that the simple thing to do with regards to gc-safety of deported strings on cheney platforms is to give up on using them in-place on the heap and just always malloc/free them.
21:14:07  LiamH: This seems to make perfect sense
21:14:14  LiamH: Moreover: it works
21:14:25 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away
21:14:49  LiamH: and as important: it's much cleaner and easier to maintain
21:16:03  nyef: and on gencgc? Has anyone committed code to pin the arrays in place?
21:16:15  Sure. That happened a while ago.
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21:16:43  Wow, don't even remember that one.
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21:21:46  LiamH: I found a slight problem, though...
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21:22:28  Sikander: Yes?
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21:23:13  LiamH: 2D Fourier transforms
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21:23:54  Are they covered in FFT?
21:24:17  Not in GSL, but they can easily be made yourself... in GSL. But not in GSLL any more
21:24:47  you're not talking about Hankel transforms are you?
21:24:53  To do a 2D FFT in GSL, one only needs to adjust n to the number of columns and adjust the offset of the array to each row
21:25:18  And then for the columns adjust the stride, offset and set n to the number of rows.
21:25:26  Loop, and you're done.
21:25:49  GSLL doesn't allow either adjusting the n over which to FFT, nor to supply an offset
21:25:51  Mmm, Ok.  Let's talk later.  I've got to run now.
21:25:56  Ok
21:26:00  See you
21:26:17  I'll send a more detailed explanation to devel.
21:26:32  OK, thanks.  I think we can come up with a solution.
21:26:39  Great
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21:30:45  hmm
21:31:04 *rahul* can't figure out what the extra args are in ilisp-send....
21:31:27 *rahul* looks for ilisp source on the web
21:32:24  mm ilisp, that brings memories
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21:44:18  In McCLIM, when you have an object to present and one of the slots of that object is a text to be printed at a specific location in a pane, how do you define the present-method? I use write-string, but can't position the text that way.
21:44:36  Format with ~T?
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21:45:15  Alternately, is presentation really the right mechanism for what you're trying to do?
21:45:17  For instance, the title of a figure.  need to position it at the top and centered (for instance)
21:45:35  I don't know, I'm just making it up as I go
21:46:19  I know when I needed a status bar for pretzil I ended up making a separate frame for it with its own space-requirement stuff.
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21:47:20  nyef: What if I have a class that holds eg a title and a file name, and I want to put the title on top, and load the file name as something else below, but still want it all to appear in the same pane.
21:47:28 -!- udzinari` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
21:47:50  I don't know.
21:47:54  :(
21:48:02  Not an McCLIM expert here by any means.
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21:48:33 -!- udzinari` is now known as nyquist
21:48:34  I was looking into making a sheet for the title, and another sheet for the contents of the file, make those two sheets siblings in the pane and position them.
21:48:43 ck [n=ck@24.144.224.87] has joined #lisp
21:48:48  This seems to be the proper way to do it (I think)
21:48:57 -!- ck [n=ck@24.144.224.87] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
21:49:24  But I can't figure out how in the presentation method to present one slot of the class in one sheet and another slot in another sheet.
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21:49:52  Wait, is this perhaps related to views? Hmmm....
21:49:57 *Sikander* goes back to the spec.
21:50:16  tcr: herep
21:52:35 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp
21:54:34  Is there an example where multiple sheets in McCLIM are used (sheets that are not instantiated as panes in the define-application-frame?
21:54:36  )
21:54:57 *nyef* sighs.
21:55:23 *Sikander* wonders if nyef's sigh was pointed towards him.
21:55:25  Managed to mess up my slug. Guess it's no good for an lvm-based fileserver. :-/
21:55:32  ehu`: kind of
21:56:03  oh, not good
21:56:07  ok. looking at fooling typep / simple-typep to think fundamental stream is a 'stream.
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21:58:49  Sikander: I'm going to suggest that presentations are entirely the wrong mechanism to use here, as they are a subclass of output-record, which doesn't seem to reasonably split over multiple panes.
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22:01:01  nyef: So how would you go about visualising such an existing class in the McCLIM way?
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22:02:37  Would I have to define a new classes that I instantiate with values from the object in the old class? How to keep all this up-to-date when one thing changes?
22:04:39  I really don't know. I can tel that you're doing something wrong, but I'm not sure I know, or even have the vocabulary to express, what is wrong.
22:04:53  hi, can anyone recommend some reading material on MOP? I couldn't find anything extensive
22:04:57  Wait, I can use define-presentation-type and with-output-as-presentation... probably
22:05:04  minion: Tell egn about AMOP
22:05:05  egn: have a look at AMOP: The Art of the Metaobject Protocol, an essential book for understanding the implementation of CLOS and advanced OO. See the sepcification of MOP at http://www.lisp.org/mop/
22:05:13 -!- Guest12679 [n=ck@24.144.224.87] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
22:05:20  nyef: thanks
22:06:01  Sikander: Have you considered that perhaps what you want isn't a presentation at all?
22:06:42  nyef: Yes, but I still want the graphical objects to be tied to the actual data. That is why I came back to presentations.
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22:07:19 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-241-17.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit []
22:08:24  nyef: I appreciate your help and comments, but it's not really helpful to say that you know I'm doing something wrong, but can tell me what. If anything, I underspecified what I am trying to do here.
22:08:33  *can't*
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22:11:09  nyef: So what I want is something that behaves _like_ a presentation so that the objects on the screen are directly tied to the slots in an instance, but I'd like the some of the objects to be presented in their own sheets.
22:11:12  Sikander: I did something of the sort...
22:11:24  lemme see fi I can find waht I did.
22:11:35  schme: Thanks, that would be very helpful
22:11:52 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-080-057.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
22:12:21  if I understand this correctly you want something like text and some other thing below it? but you want to be able to position the text?
22:12:32  like an icon on the desktop, but upside down.
22:12:38  schme: Yes. Exactly
22:12:55  right..
22:13:04  schme: But both things (both the icon and text in your example) are in the same instance of a class
22:13:07 *schme* starts looking through his multitude of lisp directories.
22:13:11  yes
22:13:12  right
22:13:27  and you want the presentation to display both the lil rabbit and the name.
22:13:38  Yep!
22:14:00 *Sikander* wonders what kind of desktop icon schme has in mind.
22:14:09  I have been off clim for a while so don't know the correct vocabulary.
22:14:10  hahaha
22:14:35  I know I did something somewhat like that for my backgammon.
22:14:38  schme: I'm new to clim, so I don't know the correct vocabulary either
22:14:55  (:
22:15:08  ooh, is it somewhere available on the web? Then I can just download the source and dig through it.
22:15:35  hey there's an idea. I should github it.
22:15:39  (and play a little backgammon as a bonus)
22:15:49  there is no such thing as a little backgammon.
22:16:23 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp
22:16:27  only little rabbits
22:16:29  ;)
22:16:57 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp
22:17:10  right ok. I have a presentation method for board points and it basically draws the graphics for the point and above (or below) I place some text centered.
22:17:27  so it seems I'm actually for the presentation I'm doing a formatting-table
22:17:28  Hey hey hey
22:17:45  with two rows
22:17:50  huh
22:17:50 *Sikander* looks up formatting table
22:18:00  I might be looking at the wrong thing because I'm drawing circles.
22:18:01  hrrm.
22:18:13  I should comment code.
22:18:37  hrrmm..
22:18:49  Nevertheless, it seems useful.
22:19:08  well it seems I'm drawing in one cell there, and in the other cell I'm using (draw-text* stream "2" 25 25)
22:19:11  for positioning
22:19:13  (but not useful for you trying to understand your code)
22:19:28  I think I have misnamed the function. This is checker drawing.
22:20:29 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@e179121134.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"]
22:20:34  ok. I see. That's not at all what I'm doing.
22:20:37  But I bet that would work anyway!
22:20:50  I mean with text in one row, and other stuff in the row below.
22:20:59  Yeah, thanks, it looks like it can do what I want to try.
22:21:03  want to do
22:21:09  I'll give it a try
22:21:10  unless all rows end up the same size. I forget.
22:21:14  cools. gl
22:21:21  thanks a lot
22:21:38  no thank you. I have gotten inspiration to get this thing working again. the backgammon client.
22:21:52  but now sleep (:
22:21:53  And perhaps you'll put it up on github!
22:21:59  Yeah, me too...
22:22:11  Thanks again
22:22:14  Goodnight
22:22:17  np
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22:24:24  ehu`: How can I help you?
22:25:12  tcr: well, I was wondering if it was enough for you if typep / simple-typep would indicate that a fundamental-stream is also a STREAM.
22:25:20 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp
22:25:38  I mean, that the typep system would tell you that, without it being in the class precedence list for fundamental stream
22:25:52 *ehu`* feels like he's introducing a hack
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22:28:14  iirc the error was produced by some of the stream functions
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22:28:24  I can't remember if that one used typep internally
22:28:51  ok. that won't help then.
22:29:55  I'll have to do a presentation about the work I did while I was employed the last months: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/python-and-lisp.pdf
22:30:34  Unforntunately, I don't think I'm allowed to actually show you some of the actually resulting stuff, but it may still be interesting to you
22:30:48 ln5 [n=ln5@h129n7c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp
22:30:51 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
22:30:53  it's about using Python as an infix DSL for Lisp applications
22:31:35 -!- carbocalm [n=user@64.40.185.82] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
22:32:03  Tell me what you think!
22:35:51  I think it looks really nice!
22:36:18  (I haven't found issues with prefix notation though: as long as the app you're offering brings enough benefits)
22:36:55 paxcoder [n=paxcoder@unaffiliated/paxcoder] has joined #lisp
22:37:00  "minority" is a euphemism, in reality it's just one lone CL guy
22:37:07  how can a dot appear in my numerical list?
22:37:22 milaz [n=user@85.174.147.56] has joined #lisp
22:37:54 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp
22:37:56  and it's all engineers, no one with CS background, and it's mostly mathy stuff they have to do.
22:38:13  so I can relate to how they feel like prefix notation is a chore
22:38:34  I can too, however, I got financial controllers to do prefix.
22:38:35  paxcoder: by having a tail that's non-nil
22:38:37  :-)
22:38:53  you and your evil persuasion tricks
22:39:10  just because I told them that's what they had to learn to get the app going.
22:39:16  but the benefits were big:
22:39:28  1 day of specifying versus 2 weeks of Excel juggling.
22:39:57  that's where they agreed the benefits were good enough
22:40:24  ok. bed for me. maybe more tomorrow.
22:40:52  rahul: hm...
22:40:54  tcr: nice
22:41:02 chenfengyuan| [n=chenfeng@117.136.10.4] has joined #lisp
22:41:42  paxcoder: your base case should be the empty list if you're writing a recursive function
22:42:09 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp
22:42:23  rahul: it is. I test if null(list)
22:42:42  paxcoder: if it's null, return nil
22:42:53  as in ()
22:43:49  rahul: but that's just the thing: see here: http://paste2.org/p/495947
22:46:14  rahul: you there?
22:47:40  minion: paste
22:47:41  paste: lisppaste: lisppaste is an IRC bot that runs under the nickname "lisppaste" and can be used (only for the #lisp IRC channel!) at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp - or http://paste.lisp.org/ for other destinations
22:48:23  paxcoder: well, you're explicitly consing a non-nil atom at the tail of your list
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22:48:29  I don't know what else to say
22:48:46 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-30-217.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp
22:49:05  also, if you're going to code recursively, you should do it correctly
22:49:10  rahul: how else am i supposed to do this? *shrugs*
22:49:12  your code will cause a stack overflow
22:49:54  wish you'd tell me what the problem was. i'm a lisp noob.
22:49:59  paxcoder: (defun postfix (list elt) (append list (list elt)))
22:50:11  paxcoder: you're explicitly putting a non-list in the tail of a cons cell
22:50:55  your code plainly asks for the exact behavior you said you didn't want...
22:51:18  paxcoder: also, if you do this in a loop, you will turn a linear operation into a quadratic one
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22:51:52 *paxcoder* is confused
22:51:54 -!- chenfengyuan| [n=chenfeng@117.136.10.4] has quit ["used jmIrc"]
22:52:18  paxcoder: who is misleading you into believing that coding like this is a sensible thing to do?
22:52:40  i don't know the alternative
22:53:02  well, just don't do these kinds of things
22:53:22  rahul: this works: http://paste2.org/p/495957
22:53:28  but there's already a standard function called APPEND for doing what you want
22:53:47  (append is more general, but you can give it a 1 element list to append)
22:53:49  it's just practice
22:53:59 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
22:54:21  paxcoder: practicing bad habits is usually a bad idea
22:54:43  i don't know what the problem is. it's a classic recursive function.
22:54:47  (cons x ()) === (list x)
22:54:57 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp
22:55:00  do you understand why this fixed the problem?
22:55:26 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp
22:55:28  of course. no offense, but you didn't help me much
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22:55:53  well i think anyway
22:55:57  I didn't want to just give you the answre
22:56:16  i tried to squeeze a hint out of your comments, but couldn't.
22:56:18  then you wouldn't have learned anything, and I would have harmed you
22:56:24 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."]
22:56:27  sometimes simply stating your problem helps to find an answer
22:56:38  well, you put a non-list in the tail. you fixed it by making the tail a list
22:57:13  rahul: i misunderstood you completely. I thought you were speaking about null lists, and how I shouldn't have an x there.
22:57:23  :-P
22:57:26  if you haven't understood what I just said, then you will make this same mistake the next time you write a stack-overflowing-function
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22:57:52  paxcoder: well, this function has a different base case. I was assuming the typical null, but that was premature of me
22:57:53  rahul: why is it stack overflowing (i'm puzzled how cons worked anyway)
22:58:12  paxcoder: because you're not tail-recursing
22:58:14 *nyef* notes that his mistake when writing a stack-overflowing-function is typically trying to handle the stack-overflow condition on the same stack.
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22:58:23 -!- seangrov` [n=user@adsl-71-135-123-161.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit]
22:58:32  heh
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22:58:49  nyef: well, usually you don't intend to actually overflow the stack
22:59:02  except for the times when you're testing the stack overflow handling functionality :)
22:59:19  Exactly.
22:59:48  paxcoder: expand the last call to (postfix (cdr S) x) ... what does it return when the cdr is NIL?
23:00:04 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-152.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
23:00:37  a list containing x, as i suppose is necessary for the cons
23:00:42 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp
23:00:52 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp
23:00:58 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-18.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp
23:01:02  There's probably some obscene method by which I can obtain control stack extension in SBCL.
23:01:09 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
23:01:15  is there anything i'm missing?
23:01:38  paxcoder: right, so the result of (postfix '(1) 2) is (cons 1 (postfix '() 2)) which is (cons 1 (cons 2 nil))
23:01:46  nyef: on !win32? (:
23:01:53  before, you were doing (cons 1 2) instead
23:01:58 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
23:02:20  rahul: (cons '(1) 2)
23:02:21  pkhuong: Yes. The win32 solution is even more obscene.
23:02:34 sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp
23:02:37  paxcoder: what is (car '(1))?
23:02:44 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.212.119] has joined #lisp
23:02:55  '(1)
23:03:02 *rahul* blinks
23:03:09  try it at the REPL
23:03:45  oh
23:03:59  yeah, whatever: you cons an element to a list.
23:04:22  at least, if you're trying to create a list
23:04:46  what else would cons do?
23:04:49  but do you see how the result to postfix must be recursively computed before you can build the cons cell?
23:04:52  *could
23:04:56  cons creates a cons cell
23:05:06  a list is a cons cell whose cdr is a list
23:05:20 -!- billitch [n=billitch@dslb-088-075-189-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit []
23:05:23  The basic notion is that the stack pointer is never set in relation to the frame pointer within a function except during initial setup or during return value processing, and the return value case is relative to the outgoing frame and not the frame resuming operation. If the stack overflows, move the stack -pointer- and most recent frame, wedge a reverse-stack-switch block in for the unwind, and resume execution on a new stack.
23:06:12  nyef: this is for a dynamically growing stack?
23:06:38  Noncontiguous, yes.
23:06:42  right
23:07:17  On a normal return you'll take a hit, but on a UWP you can run the cleanups using frames on the old stack and a pointer on the new one.
23:07:31  anyway, give me some example like this, so i can try and code it in lisp
23:07:48  paxcoder: no one would write code like that in lisp
23:08:03 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit []
23:08:04  it's part of the language already, anyway
23:08:07  rahul: because of the built-ins, or is there an actual reason?
23:08:25  paxcoder: also because the way you wrote it will consume stack for no reason
23:08:51  rahul: how'd you write it if there was no append?
23:09:29  It's actually somewhat of an application of my current thinking about computational processes and threads.
23:09:36  Even if it -is- insane.
23:10:02  i know recursive functions are expensive. but that's functional programming for you.
23:10:39  paxcoder: you need to create the cons before you recurse (loop) and the recursive case (next loop iteration) needs to set the cdr to be whatever it computes
23:10:45  paxcoder: that's not true
23:11:03  rahul: it is for pure fp anyway
23:11:12  paxcoder: if you write the code correctly, it will be identical to an imperative solution
23:11:24  Sometimes recursion is extremely cheap. It really depends on knowing what you're paying for.
23:11:31  imperative as in iterative, specifically
23:11:49  rahul: purely with functional methods, no loops and such used?
23:11:49  tail recursion is iteration disguised
23:12:01  with a taste for stack
23:12:03  paxcoder: loops are functional
23:12:03  Lambda, the ultimate GOTO!
23:12:27  rahul: last time i checked you need states for loops
23:12:32  paxcoder: from a language perspective they are two constructs with the same meaning
23:12:47  paxcoder: last time I checked, you need states for function calls
23:12:50 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"]
23:12:51  No, if you get tail-chain optimization then you don't consume stack. Knowing when you can get tail-chain optimization is a matter of having a good cost-model.
23:13:05  rahul: o.O? what states?
23:13:06  "This function call requires New Hampshire!"
23:13:20  well, you can get TCO when you could write the function as a loop :)
23:13:28 -!- ziga` [n=user@BSN-142-126-33.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
23:13:35  and don't forget TCO isn't mandated by CLHS
23:13:40  paxcoder: the parameters to the surrounding recursive calls
23:13:56 -!- ln5 [n=ln5@h129n7c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["Leaving."]
23:14:05  rahul: we're talking explicit states
23:14:16  right. getting TCO usually requires compiling code and requesting for pessimization of debugging and optimization of speed
23:15:03 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@207.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
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23:15:07  If i wanted an inexpensive prog i'd use C. I'm trying to learn a paradigm here.
23:15:25  ... read books?
23:15:28  Have a quarter instead, it's worth more.
23:16:24  i don't get you guys. why *do* you do lisp/fp if you think it's worthless?
23:16:31  huh?
23:16:35  what does lisp/fp mean?
23:16:46  perhaps it's a class at your univ so you have to
23:16:56  rahul: functional programming
23:16:57  paxcoder: lisp and C have the same basis in functional programming
23:17:09  what are you talking about?
23:17:12  the only difference is closures.
23:17:19  i use lisp to solve my little day-to-day problems
23:17:19  (which gcc has, actually)
23:17:29  stassats: why?
23:17:36  paxcoder: lisp is not a functional language
23:17:47  because lisp is the language i know best
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23:17:51  rahul: what are you doing rahul?
23:17:56  paxcoder: lisp is a language where functions are first class objects
23:18:01  paxcoder: I am typing
23:18:35  lisp doesn't impose any limits on you, like paradigms, etc.
23:18:40  paxcoder: you may like to read this, as you seem to have some misconceptions about lisp: http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/lisp-answers/
23:18:49  i didn't say pure. i'm using it as though it is one (i have done a loop in it once, but that's not what i'm here for)
23:18:54  lisp is a language where code is data, so you can build new paradigms by writing lisp code
23:19:15  paxcoder: you can write recursive functions in C just as easily as in lisp
23:19:27  i know.
23:19:41  so you are learning how to write C code in lisp
23:19:43  metaprogramming is also interesting.
23:20:24  rahul: perhaps, yeah. actually i'm trying to learn a paradigm in a language whose programmers seem to prefer it. happy now? ;-P
23:20:25  but recursive functions in C are less useful than in lisp. Compare int f(int x){return(x<1?1:x*f(x-));} vs. (defun f (x) (if (< x 1) 1 (* x (f (1- x))))), eg. f(20) vs. (f 20)....
23:20:52  paxcoder: which programmers prefer what?
23:20:54  x--?
23:21:12  x-1, sorry.
23:21:13  pjb: useful and readable are different things :)
23:21:49  rahul: I don't mean readability, but the results of f(20) vs. the result of (f 20).
23:21:53  then again, I don't find that lisp code very readable either :)
23:22:06  rahul: again, why use it?
23:22:07  pjb: oh, implementing arithmetic
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23:22:13  paxcoder: why use what?
23:22:15  metaprogramming?
23:22:17 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-7-167.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp
23:22:22  rahul: guess. i'll give you 1 try.
23:22:28  paxcoder: because you want your code to be clean and simple
23:22:41  yeah, that's what it is XD
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23:23:00  paxcoder: we're discussing 3 different things at once. there are three "that"s
23:23:00  and also slow and prefix and full of braces.
23:23:32  paxcoder: metaprogramming makes your code clean and simple and fast
23:23:38  "full of braces" means it's not clean and simple
23:23:40  also I don't know why would you put all leftover closing brackets at the end of the last line in the function
23:23:50  it has lots of little details everywhere
23:24:02  paxcoder: why? do you need to read them one by one?
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23:24:19  rahul: what do you mean?
23:24:25  paxcoder: does a movie end by playing it in reverse?
23:24:32  no. they just say "the end"
23:24:44  paxcoder: why do you say "lisp is slow"?
23:25:04  oh no, please
23:25:05  Dodek: because he writes a recursive version of append and then calls it in a loop :)
23:25:13  stassats: XD
23:25:29  ah.
23:25:38  rahul: i'm not using loops. thought we were clear on that.
23:25:51  paxcoder: recursion is looping by other means.
23:26:15  some specific kind of recursion, one should add.
23:26:31  Dodek: yeah, the kind of recursion he should be doing, but isn't :)
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23:26:46  rahul: they don't carry the development from the beginning of the movie to the very end. brackets are more readable if they actually imply some structure.
23:26:48  at least, if he's trying to learn how to express loops as recursion
23:27:02  paxcoder: yes, that's what they are in lisp
23:27:17  paxcoder: have you read your SICP already?
23:27:17  paxcoder: in other languages, they imply anything or nothing at various times
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23:27:37  if you are so interested in recursion
23:27:44  i love paul graham's argumentation: all good syntax highlighting will show you where it begins . plft :-P
23:28:02  stassats: clearly not, since he's writing APPEND by not using tail recursion :)
23:28:23  stassats: i didn't know i had one
23:28:27  recursion treatment in "On Lisp" is also good, i think.
23:28:34  minion: please tell paxcoder about sicp
23:28:34  paxcoder: look at sicp: The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available under the CC-BY-NC Licence at  (HTML),  (Texinfo), and  (PDF). Video lectures are available under the CC-BY-SA licence at 
23:28:56  paxcoder: are you interested in learning lisp or in learning recursion?
23:29:38  i'm interested in learning functional programming via one of the most popular languages whose coders prefer it.
23:29:44  paxcoder: recursion is as important to lisp as it is to C, lisp just makes it more useful, but lisp also makes code in general more useful because you can structure it however you want
23:29:59  paxcoder: lisp coders definitely don't "prefer" recursion
23:30:06  paxcoder: "whose coders prefer it"? Haskell? :P
23:30:23  p_l: yes, I was thinking about that too. Kinda confusing atm, maybe later
23:30:43  paxcoder: you may be thinking of ML, scheme, haskell, erlang, or any number of other languages that are not lisp
23:31:04  Mathematica, too
23:31:16  rahul: not all of those are pure functional, so please... cmon.
23:31:19  hm, scheme is not lisp? what is lisp, then?
23:31:22  you had your fun now, ok?
23:31:26  paxcoder: so?
23:31:38  Dodek: lisp is scheme's daddy?
23:31:52  no
23:31:52  that's not what i had in mind.
23:32:16  from time to time i read an opinion that scheme is not lisp
23:32:16  paxcoder: C isn't pure functional, but lots of C code is written using recursion
23:32:20  stassats: have a desire to object?
23:32:32  rahul: not as much as lisp
23:32:33  Dodek: yes, as C# is not C
23:32:36  paxcoder: i read that sentence in prefix, don't mind me
23:32:46  i wonder, what's a definition of lisp then
23:32:49  paxcoder: no, I've seen more recursive code in C than in lisp, by far
23:32:51 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.242.107] has joined #lisp
23:32:59  rahul: C PreProcessor, however, is purely functional language ;-)
23:33:01  i always considered a language to be lisp if it has lisp syntax
23:33:01  But the main problem in writing functional code in C, is memory management.
23:33:12  rahul: now you're outright lying
23:33:14  p_l: in a very non-functional way :P
23:33:15  paxcoder: but lisp which are we talking about right now isn't scheme's daddy
23:33:17  paxcoder: nope
23:33:27  yes, you are
23:33:33  that is, its source code is a data structure and is composed of lists
23:33:36  um, I'm not...
23:33:50  scheme code is, ergo scheme is lisp.
23:34:04  Dodek: wrong
23:34:16  pjb: most of the time you can get away with regions and a hand-rolled copying gc.
23:34:20  Dodek: scheme code is defined as textual patterns, not as data structures
23:34:30  o.O
23:34:43  is that so?
23:34:47  yeah
23:34:53  looks the same to me
23:35:10  rahul: is it specified like that in RnRS?
23:35:12  if you forget about lack of real macros
23:35:15  p_l: yes
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23:35:22  stassats: don't want to read that book
23:35:25  lack of real macros?
23:35:25 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.251.138] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"]
23:35:26  rahul: it's Refal code that is defined as textual patterns
23:35:37  pkhuong: functions that take code and return code
23:35:43  "is scheme a lisp" discussion got old years ago
23:35:48  paxcoder: bad for you
23:35:59  stassats: why? I've got other books
23:36:02  paxcoder: SICP is the only book that will teach you recursion properly
23:36:02  Dodek: yes? syntax-case doesn't qualify because?
23:36:17  paxcoder: whatever other book you have is teaching you badly
23:36:34  rahul: my recursion was not wrong. my usage of cons was
23:36:47  paxcoder: your recursion is also incorrect, since it causes errors
23:37:07  paxcoder: read SICP if you want to know why and how to fix it
23:37:09  it causes errors because of the ___ (fill in the blank)
23:37:22  "it eats stack"
23:37:31  pkhuong: i'm sorry, but i think i have to refrain from answering, since my knowledge of scheme is rather limited. anyway, the macros in scheme looked somehow limited when compared to common lisp.
23:37:39  "it burns stack" not just eats
23:37:44  all of them do.
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23:38:03  Dodek: you could have refrained earlier too.
23:38:08  paxcoder: you are willfully ignorant. which is another way of saying dumb.
23:38:29  you have an "iteration", you push context to the stack. i see no other way.
23:38:34  paxcoder: you will insist on being incorrect because you don't want to be correct
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23:38:52  paxcoder: that sounds like a personal problem to me.
23:39:02  I can see another way. as can everyone else in this channel...
23:39:14  if you know any other, do tell
23:39:18  rahul: you don't have to.
23:39:40  pkhuong: i guess i should learn more and then maybe we will resume this discussion
23:39:47  paxcoder: everyone has told you repeatedly...
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23:40:20  I recall examples of macros back with R3RS if not earlier, I don't remember exactly which version my book used... I wouldn't be surprised if it was RRS
23:40:28  rahul: see, i don't think they did.
23:40:41  p_l: they weren't standard
23:40:42  You have to arrange that there's nothing left to be done once you have the value of your recursive call, and then you can "just" re-use your existing stack frame.
23:40:50  p_l: different implementations had different macro systems
23:40:52  and still do
23:41:02  paxcoder: sounds like a personal problem to me
23:41:12  many provide cl-like macros
23:41:15  rahul: syntax* stuff, sure, the rest was completely arbitrary
23:41:15  paxcoder: when recursion call is the last thing done in the body of a function, it does not create a new stack frame, it essentialy replaces old arguments with new ones and jumps to the beginning.
23:41:27  stassats: CL-like macros are phenomenally useless in scheme, tho
23:41:53  rahul: how?
23:41:54  rahul: so they have a special package to support it
23:42:08  Dodek: careful (let ((*foo* 1)) (f)) is not tail recursion
23:42:08  rahul: in PLT, at least
23:42:22  milaz: which is not in RnRS
23:42:43  yes, of course. but in practic, they use it
23:42:48  *practice
23:42:52  pkhuong: how what?
23:42:54  Dodek: I can't see how that applies to my function.
23:43:00  rahul: i needed to simplify it, in order for him to understand it
23:43:04  how are procedural macros useless in scheme?
23:43:06  milaz: PLT has 3 different macro systems
23:43:08 coyo [i=alex@70.254.188.61] has joined #lisp
23:43:09  last I heard
23:43:22  I know of two of them
23:43:28  paxcoder: may i see your function? i did not follow the discussion from the beginning
23:43:31  pkhuong: because symbols don't have any informative value
23:43:47  Dodek: ...
23:43:47  code is not defined by the symbols in it, in scheme
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23:44:06      (if (null S)
23:44:06          (cons x ())
23:44:06          (cons (car S) (postfix (cdr S) x))
23:44:06      )
23:44:07  )
23:44:10  the correct data structure to describe code in scheme is some implementation-specific opaque data structure
23:44:14  yeah, that failed
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23:44:26  lisppaste: url?
23:44:26  To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste.
23:44:34  since it's already up there, it's missing (defun postfix (S x)
23:44:37  paxcoder: if you formatted your code correctly it would have been much nicer to paste :)
23:44:39  i assume there is a defun before that, right?
23:44:52  but your function ain't tail recursive
23:44:59  rahul: that is called modularity. That is also why syntax-case specifies how to go from syntax objects to lists with symbols and back.
23:45:18  paxcoder: last thing done in your function is not recursive call, it's consing a result of recursive call
23:45:24  pkhuong: right, but that is why CL-like macros are useless in scheme
23:45:32  rahul: I don't follow.
23:46:03  pkhuong: you can't tell anything about the code given the tree of symbols
23:46:03 Balooga_ [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has joined #lisp
23:46:06  Dodek: well the call can't stand alone. if nothing, it'd be in the if
23:46:15  I don't get it.
23:46:18  so a function that gets a tree of symbols can't do anything useful with it
23:46:23 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
23:46:32  paxcoder: IF is a control sturcture, not a function call
23:46:46 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp
23:46:59  hmm...
23:47:02  rahul: that would be the reason why procedural macros don't receive lists but rather syntax objects.
23:47:10  Has there been an update to TRIVIAL-FEATURES recently? It not longer works with Edi's starter pack. Errors with nvalid byte: 10 in #(110 32 116 104 101 10 107 101)
23:47:10  Balooga_, memo from Guthur: Using lispbuilder-sdl: the modifier keys do not seem to affect the sdl-key value returned eg. Shift-1 returns SDL-KEY-1, should it not return SDL-KEY-EXCLAIM
23:47:23  paxcoder: recursion involves functions, not control structures. every control structure has one or more "tail" positions, which are locations where a recursive call is equivalent to iteration
23:47:43  pkhuong: well, then they're not CL-like in my book...
23:47:55  rahul: in PLT, they implemented CL-style macros with syntax-case, afaik
23:48:35  rahul: ok, but i don't see a way i can improve my function
23:48:51  well, that's why you need to read SICP
23:48:52  to me CL-like means that your code as a data structure looks like the code as text
23:48:55  Dodek: do you?
23:49:13  paxcoder: whose fault is it that you refuse to learn how?
23:49:23  paxcoder: i suggest reading "On Lisp" if you want to write programs in common lisp, the scheme equivalent would be SICP
23:49:31  ehm
23:49:35  rahul: I can print syntax objects however I want. What's your point?
23:49:43  On Lisp and SICP aren't equivalent in general, tho :)
23:49:44 -!- ziga`` [n=user@89.142.52.114] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
23:49:58  that's true
23:50:07  Dodek: you know, you don't really have to follow rahul's example and deny people information. It's like he's the book salesman.
23:50:20  however as far as i remember On Lisp covers tail-recursion, so does SICP
23:50:54  pkhuong: you can't lift a syntax object out of its top level form and make any sense of it
23:51:09  paxcoder: it's a FREE BOOK
23:51:10  paxcoder: we could have given a working tail recursive code right away. you would not learn anything that way though.
23:51:11  jesus
23:51:29  rahul: as much as you can with CL.
23:51:29  Dodek: you don't know that.
23:51:39  paxcoder: most of the books you'll get recommended here outright are available legally for free
23:51:49  rahul: so are some other books.
23:51:57 rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp
23:52:01  (one of the few exceptions is PAIP - just go to library)
23:52:04  Jesus knows CL?
23:52:11  pkhuong: true.
23:52:31  paxcoder: so read some other books and leave us alone ffs
23:52:31  news at 11, CL macros un-CL-like.
23:53:07  rahul: once more, YOU don't have to speak to me.
23:53:25  minion: tell paxcoder about paip
23:53:26  paxcoder: please see paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/paip
23:53:40  pkhuong: but why do scheme macros need explicit hygeine and CL macros don't?
23:53:53  or is that just FUD spread by the scheme community against itself :)
23:53:54  paxcoder: there you'll even have a Scheme compiler with TCO so you can learn about FP done this way
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23:54:20  p_l: heh nice :)
23:54:53  rahul: hygiene by default makes a lot of sense. That CL can make do with a unix solution isn't an argument for such a solution.
23:55:54  oh, one thing is that you can write a codewalker in CL
23:56:15  I don't think it's possible in scheme, because you can't assume anything about special forms or not in scheme
23:56:35  time for me to knock off
23:56:40  Dodek: do i need states for TCO?
23:56:54  paxcoder: wat?
23:56:54  well, you can't figure out what's happening in a special form, either, since you can't tell which one you're dealing with
23:56:56  specify what special forms you expect in scheme and stick to that. What do you think arnesi does with CCL?
23:57:43 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
23:57:46  paxcoder: the difference between recursion and iteration is just in the number of states you need
23:57:48  paxcoder: TCO interpreter in PAIP used tagbody to do jumps in place of funcall when it encountered tail calls
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23:58:11  paxcoder: iteration uses a finite number of states. recursion uses an arbitrary number of states.
23:58:18  rahul: when i say state i mean explicit state, because otherwise nothing can be done without a state.
23:58:22  Is your complaint that scheme does as little to restrict proprietary extensions as CL?
23:58:32  paxcoder: do you know what a push-down automaton is, compared to a finite state machine?
23:58:45  paxcoder: the state in a recursion is VERY explicit
23:58:53  rahul: bah, go with primitive recursion instead, for a nice name clash.
23:59:04  heh
23:59:21  pkhuong: I guess that is part of the problem
23:59:28  rahul: what DOESN'T have a state then?
23:59:29  pkhuong: you can't tell what code does by looking at it
23:59:38  and you can with CL?!
23:59:40  pkhuong: not from a semantic point of view
23:59:53  by your imposed definition everything does