00:00:05 -!- arnee [n=arnee@a89-182-28-155.net-htp.de] has quit [] 00:00:13 the CSE example he gives is quite interesting 00:00:26 I think that's one worth looking into optimizing 00:00:38 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 00:00:44 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-112.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:01:18 peddie [n=peddie@c-98-210-236-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:24 loop invariant lifting is incorrect in lisp if there is multithreading 00:01:43 actually, it's incorrect in C as well 00:02:58 would a peephole optimizer end up performaing the CSE in that example? 00:04:54 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:14 -!- mrm [n=mmourato@94.41.17.72.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:06:39 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.219.111] has joined #lisp 00:07:17 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h138n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:09:44 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-78.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:11:02 -!- cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:11:07 cods [n=cods@tuxee.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:35 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.40] has joined #lisp 00:12:46 rkm [n=rkm@rrcs-96-10-234-78.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:13:19 -!- peddie_ [n=peddie@c-98-210-236-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:14:40 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:15:56 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-141-232.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:18 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 00:16:51 -!- paipimenta [n=paipimen@cpe-98-154-90-81.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 00:17:49 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:25:31 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-141-232.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:26:02 quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has joined #lisp 00:28:27 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-88-204.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:30:29 knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has joined #lisp 00:34:11 :test-not argument to remove is deprecated. which function do I use to collect matched objects in a list. find only returns one object. 00:36:09 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-24-29.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:36:18 use of complement is suggested. 00:39:18 but that does not work for remove, only remove-if 00:40:43 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:41:00 knobo - (loop for x in lis collect if ...) 00:41:41 I would rather stick to test-not than using loop 00:42:14 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:43:26 knobo: that deprecation has been deprecated :) 00:43:30 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:43:37 loop is great, 00:43:58 oops my finger actually slipped there, i had decided not to say that 00:44:15 it seems i was meant to say it hehe 00:44:18 Stand firm, Guther! 00:44:46 loop is probably grate for you. 00:45:36 It was for me to, until I learned lisp :p 00:46:16 sorry. I should go to bed now.. before I say anything more stupid. 00:46:24 well i decided to learn common lisp 00:46:28 knobo: use test-not. 00:46:50 rahul: CSE and threads is messy. 00:47:18 loop hoisting is a generalisation of CSE, really. 00:48:28 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.54.174] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:49:56 nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:06 -!- rlarson80 [n=rlarson8@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:02:04 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:02:38 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 01:04:32 s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-224-110.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:11 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-224-110.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:15:02 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:16:02 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.219.111] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:16:58 clhs #: 01:16:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhe.htm 01:17:16 pkhuong: this is for something like (+ (aref a i) (aref b i)) to avoid multiplying i by the element length twice 01:17:28 although in most cases, you won't need to multiply at all 01:17:39 rahul: right. messy in the general case. Moreover, x86 makes this a non-issue. 01:17:45 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 01:18:25 well, ok, a 1-cycle issue. 01:19:36 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:20:29 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 01:21:46 it can be useful in inner loops 01:21:53 fortran-esque code 01:23:11 strength reduction from multiplication by the loop variable to addition would be useful. The multiplication by element length isn't really an issue, unless we're talking double-floats, and even then... 01:23:35 it's just a shift 01:23:41 not even really multiplication 01:24:10 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:24:12 The latency from L1 + the rest of the AGU process makes the shift in EA computation really not that heavy. 01:24:37 yeah 01:24:42 so I think that one's a non-issue too 01:24:53 great, so we can throw out that paper 01:25:30 No, because strength reduction from (dotimes (i ...) (... (* i n))) -> increment by n would be good. 01:25:54 would be nice, but I don't think it's in the paper 01:26:48 *complex double-floats would be an issue. 01:27:35 Osaka [n=yuki@fl-71-3-68-87.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:47 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:48 We "know" how to handle these, but I'm not sure it pays off on most programs (compared to the slowdown in compilation times). If we're going to focus on numerical kernels, I have this recursion + inlining -based approach I'd like to explore ;) 01:34:27 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 01:36:15 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-124.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:37:05 I don't think I'm clear about the whole readtable-case business. (with-readtable-case :preserve (intern "Blah")) => Blah but (with-readtable-case :preserve (intern "blah")) => BLAH. Why don't I get lowercase again? 01:39:51 are you use it's not :invert? 01:39:56 rahul: SSA makes the constant-propagation example pretty easy. better def-use chains and a smarter constant propagator would make SBCL do better, too. 01:40:24 froydnj: sure 01:40:29 tsker [n=tsker@207-172-132-71.c3-0.arl-ubr1.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:40:43 froydnj: yeah, it'd help to redo a quick regalloc for x86 too with SSA + heuristics. 01:40:45 froydnj: but the writer of the paper assumed it doesn't do constant propagation for variables 01:40:55 it only punts when it sees side effects, right? 01:40:58 Try: (symbol-name (with-readtable-case :preserve (intern "blah"))) 01:41:41 quidnunc pasted "with-readtable-case" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89631 01:41:43 rahul: Yes 01:42:08 rahul: I assume so; I'm not familiar with that bit of the compiler. 01:42:41 quidnunc: what's the point of changing the readtable if you do not READ? 01:42:52 quidnunc: that's how invert works 01:43:24 rahul: It would send "BLAH" to blah but I get BLAH 01:43:54 oh, you're interning directly 01:43:58 pjb: It affects the intern. I'm not sure of the details. 01:44:09 rahul: How else should it be done? 01:44:11 clhs intern 01:44:11 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm 01:44:32 What should I check for in *features* to see if I'm on windows? 01:44:38 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-124.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:44:48 quidnunc: not in an ANSI compliant lisp 01:44:50 (for use in CFFI's define-foreign-library) 01:45:43 rahul: This is clisp. Is there something I could have set to muck things up? 01:46:35 rahul: I've the clhs for intern before, I re-read it now. Is there something in particular you are trying to bring to my attention? 01:46:56 anyone? 01:47:55 Ralith: sometimes #+windows will work 01:48:02 Ralith: it's not standardized 01:48:06 maybe #+win32 01:48:18 quidnunc: the lack of any behavior you seem to be expecting 01:48:38 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:49:22 hi, ¿how i clone a vector so it is equal but not eq? 01:49:35 copy-array 01:49:39 clhs software-type 01:49:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sw_tpc.htm 01:49:44 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:49:56 software-type is probably even less standardized 01:50:09 but maybe you can case-insensitive search it for "win" 01:50:14 rahul: The clhs examples seems to indicate that case is preserved in some fashion. 01:51:19 thanks rahul 01:51:38 it do not works 01:51:41 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 01:51:47 marioxcc: yes it does 01:52:05 then something is bad in my system :S 01:52:37 more likely you're assigning to variables incorrectly 01:55:30 rahul: constant propagation is a side-effect of type propagation; since it works on variable names instead of first doing a SSA-style pass, assignment really fsk things up. 01:55:32 is not in the hyperspec 01:55:51 i think it is implementation specific 01:55:55 is not standard 01:56:36 pkhuong: right, I knew type propagation worked like that 01:56:48 I think I've actually looked at the code that does the "punt" 01:57:11 clhs copy-array 01:57:12 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for copy-array. 01:57:16 :( 01:57:24 I thought there was a copy-array... 01:57:33 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-100-97.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:57:43 well, you can make-array with :initial-contents old-array 01:57:48 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-124.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:57:51 ok, thanks 01:58:24 and array-dimensions I think will give you exactly the right format for make-array, too 01:58:59 yes, thanks, but the size is always 8 so there is no need for array-dimensions 01:59:14 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:59:28 demmel [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-095-016.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:12 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 02:02:46 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 02:03:12 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:51 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:06:17 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 02:07:38 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:08:06 -!- jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:08:06 is it possible to have a CFFI pointer to a specific datatype, rather than just "pointer"? 02:10:20 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:05 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has quit [Client Quit] 02:15:22 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:21 -!- demmel [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-095-016.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:21:57 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:24:07 Ralith_ [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 02:24:07 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:29:34 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:32:22 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-112.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:35:09 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 02:35:18 Greetings. 02:37:00 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Client Quit] 02:37:47 Ralith_: (defstruct typed-pointer address type) (make-typed-pointer (malloc 10) '(:pointer :uint8)) 02:38:02 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.166.151.40] has joined #lisp 02:40:15 pjb: not quite what I had in mind 02:41:09 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:41:12 Ralith_: realize that in C, the values are NOT typed. It is the C variables that are typed. Therefore a CFFI pointer cannot be typed (it's a value). And since lisp variables are not typed either, you have to bring the C type along. 02:41:16 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.156.147.71] has joined #lisp 02:41:45 okay. 02:41:59 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 02:42:11 pjb: how bout function pointers? Still just a :pointer? 02:42:27 Yes. 02:42:47 sweet 02:42:55 Besides, if you have a C function pointer, you cannot call it directly (AFAIK) from lisp. 02:48:05 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.156.147.71] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:53:36 mjonsson [n=mjonsson@cpe-74-68-112-229.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:00:35 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-100-114.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:02:01 -!- quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:02:26 rlarson89 [n=rlarson8@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:02:52 i have with-input-from-string being eval'd within a macro, it seems to be unable to pickup local variables 03:03:02 Guthur: right. 03:03:19 pjb anyway round that 03:03:30 Think about macroexpansion time vs. run-time. 03:06:36 the way to eval with some local variables is (funcall (eval '(lambda (x y z) ...)) x y z) 03:07:11 But it is most probably not what Guthur wants to do anyways. 03:07:45 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 03:10:24 nope i don't think that will 03:15:30 hm 03:15:46 are C inline functions even actual functions with an ABI and all? 03:15:54 Nope. 03:16:23 Depends on the C compiler and how you use them. 03:16:42 If you take their address then the C compiler will generate a non-inline version. 03:16:53 Of course, this is not something lisp will do. 03:17:11 damn. 03:17:12 okay 03:17:22 This means you just need to write a C stub to do it. 03:22:16 jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 03:24:02 i will have to revise the macro's strategy, but it will have to wait until morning 03:24:17 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-140-191-199.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 03:24:52 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:26:14 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:26:44 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-112.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:29:13 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-112.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:30:54 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:33:06 -!- Ralith_ is now known as Ralith 03:36:40 -!- jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:41:55 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.166.151.40] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:43:26 -!- nyquist [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:44:35 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-70-35.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:57:35 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440880.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 04:02:04 lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-218-240.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:42 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 04:10:07 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-195-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:12:04 egomosis [n=egomosis@58.20.34.95] has joined #lisp 04:12:27 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.156.147.71] has joined #lisp 04:14:54 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.156.147.71] has quit [Client Quit] 04:17:24 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.222.94] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 04:20:34 gio123 [n=jhjhxh@gprs1.gprs.ge] has joined #lisp 04:20:49 is there anybody prom portugal? 04:21:55 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 04:22:40 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 04:24:58 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 04:27:01 -!- egomosis [n=egomosis@58.20.34.95] has quit ["leaving"] 04:27:24 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:07 emacspha` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:11 billitch_ [n=billitch@p57A27FDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:53 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-100-97.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:40:48 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-100-97.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:41:34 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-100-97.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:42:08 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-100-97.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:47:28 plage [n=user@LRouen-151-71-116-193.w193-253.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:47:34 Good morning! 04:48:08 morning plage ! 04:49:37 is there anybody prom portugal? 04:51:01 gio123: maybe they're asleep right now? 04:51:03 Uh, oh, here we go again. 04:52:10 -!- billitch [n=billitch@p57A25E94.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:52:10 -!- billitch_ is now known as billitch 04:52:58 gio123: This channel is not about getting in touch with people from a particular country. Sick to the subject or go somewhere else. 04:53:01 *Stick 04:54:37 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 04:55:17 -!- emacspha` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:55:37 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:56:06 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-100-97.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:57:20 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-100-97.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:59:28 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-205-024.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:31 oh great. Another SSE2 bug. 05:07:32 pkhuong: In SBCL? 05:10:07 plage: right. Probably hard to trigger though. You'd have to do something like load a complex with double-float-infinity in the imaginary part, get the regalloc to store the result of (float [integer] 0d0) in there, and multiply the result with a double float. 05:10:23 That's most likely way I can see to observe the bug (except as a performance issue) 05:12:17 -!- Osaka [n=yuki@fl-71-3-68-87.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has quit ["leaving"] 05:12:52 Very twisted, indeed. 05:13:23 The issue is that integer -> float conversion doesn't clear the upper bits of the result. 05:15:22 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-218-240.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:15:35 plage: actually, no, the mult would have to be with a (complex double-float). 05:19:12 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 05:20:42 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:28:34 coe [i=42a1d115@gateway/web/freenode/x-hxhdyhrbtlyvfvab] has joined #lisp 05:29:16 -!- coe [i=42a1d115@gateway/web/freenode/x-hxhdyhrbtlyvfvab] has quit [Client Quit] 05:43:28 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.166.151.40] has joined #lisp 05:44:58 Mailman day again... 05:50:52 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host117.190-138-130.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 05:56:35 Axius [n=ojof@92.82.82.48] has joined #lisp 06:03:51 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host213.190-230-92.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:04:06 Demosthenex [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 06:04:28 -!- Tordek_ is now known as Tordek 06:12:00 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.82.82.48] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:13:28 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:13:40 Ah, coffee, finally! 06:14:45 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 06:15:33 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:15:58 -!- gio123 [n=jhjhxh@gprs1.gprs.ge] has quit [] 06:16:53 gio123 has a long history of asking for illegal or inappropriate things. 06:19:05 ah, ok. I didn't realize I was feeding the trolls :\ 06:19:20 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:19:21 saikatc [n=saikatc@rescomp-09-132118.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 06:21:45 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@rescomp-09-132118.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 06:23:52 Adlai: Yeah, I know. Just wanted to let you know. 06:30:32 nipra [n=nipra@117.195.96.55] has joined #lisp 06:32:14 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-37-107.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:35:40 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 06:35:45 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.77.71.151] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:40:48 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:44:23 -!- tsker [n=tsker@207-172-132-71.c3-0.arl-ubr1.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- s0 d4Mn l33t |t'z 5c4rY!"] 06:54:41 clhs locally 06:54:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_locall.htm 06:55:26 *plage* has the impression that his laptop is going to give up pretty soon :( 06:57:01 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:49 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:18:07 morning 07:18:33 -!- poet [n=poet@unaffiliated/poet] has left #lisp 07:18:45 poet [n=poet@unaffiliated/poet] has joined #lisp 07:19:05 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:19:53 Hello Krystof 07:25:20 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:25:33 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-30-217.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:31:25 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-112.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:32:37 hello 07:32:55 hello mrSpec 07:34:31 mrSpec: Are you working on any Lisp project these days? 07:51:11 gio123 [n=jhjhxh@gprs1.gprs.ge] has joined #lisp 07:51:42 is there anybody from portugal? 07:55:45 plage: no :/ I have Ruby & Java projects ATM 07:57:01 but I hope to start some Lisp project in next month 08:02:19 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.54.174] has joined #lisp 08:08:33 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-32-146.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 08:09:35 gio123: Will you *please* quit that! 08:15:28 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 08:16:10 Axius [n=ojof@92.82.82.48] has joined #lisp 08:16:23 -!- xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:16:54 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:17:26 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 08:21:17 gio12345 [n=jhjhxh@gprs1.gprs.ge] has joined #lisp 08:21:43 is there anybody from portugal? 08:21:45 gio12345: Go away! 08:22:01 where 08:22:05 ? 08:22:12 in france 08:22:13 ? 08:22:15 bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 08:22:42 rmrf [n=rmrf@unaffiliated/rmrf] has joined #lisp 08:23:39 hi, i'm new to Lisp, I want to learn some Common Lisp. What book I should read now? Thanks 08:23:56 minion: tell rmrf about PCL 08:23:57 rmrf: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 08:24:27 Adlai: thanks 08:27:38 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-48-146.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:28:47 -!- gio123 [n=jhjhxh@gprs1.gprs.ge] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:29:00 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:29:00 -!- _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:29:21 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:29:21 _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:34:33 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:34:35 rmrf: What made you want to learn Common Lisp? 08:35:00 -!- gaze [n=gaze@c-67-170-217-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:35:46 plage: mostly because I want to learn functional programming, and next because I'm learning to use Emacs as well 08:39:04 rmrf: Learning Emacs well is a good idea. However, CL is a multi-paradigm programming language, and modern CL uses a lot of Object-Oriented ideas. In fact, CL has probably the best OO system out there. 08:39:17 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:41:46 hey guys, do you have some interesting algorithmics book to advise ? 08:42:10 plage: I also knew that CL is muli-paradigm language. I have do OO programming in Python, C++ and Java for a few years. So I want to learn something new, that's the reason. 08:42:33 acieroid: Cormen, Introduction to Algorithms 08:42:33 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 08:43:00 mrSpec: even if I don't have good math skills ? 08:43:55 acieroid: All algorithms books are bad :) Because the authors know nothing about data structures. 08:44:29 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.54.174] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:44:41 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.82.82.48] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:45:02 :/ 08:45:07 plage: so what's your opinion about a book to learn algorithm? 08:46:33 rmrf: I am writing one, but it is not finished, and it's in French. All the ones I have seen are bad. 08:46:56 in french \o/ 08:47:02 *acieroid* comes from belgium 08:47:13 plage, even the one by Knuth? 08:47:28 plage: there ths book is about data structurs too 08:47:29 plage: Are you planning to translate it into English? So more people can enjoy your works? 08:47:50 acieroid: yeah, even if you dont 08:47:58 g2g, BBL! 08:48:03 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 08:48:31 ok, thanks :) 08:51:50 The problem with most books is that they know nothing about what I call "uniform reference semantics" and how that is necessary in the context of imperative and OO programming in order to achieve modularity. 08:53:25 |coyoes| [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:34 rmrf: First I have to finish it. Then we'll see. 08:54:01 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 08:54:05 -!- |coyoes| is now known as coyo 08:55:14 -!- _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:27 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.54.174] has joined #lisp 08:56:02 hmm 08:56:06 plage: who are you? 08:56:31 girzel [n=user@123.121.207.173] has joined #lisp 08:56:40 rahul: beach, spiaggia. 08:56:46 ok 08:56:51 as I suspected :) 08:57:13 rlarson87 [n=rlarson8@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 08:58:49 what is "uniform reference semantics"? 08:59:11 hmm 08:59:33 *rahul* needs to figure out the right method combination for formulate::compute-formula 09:01:23 rahul: The idea that every object is manipulated through a reference, and that every side effect preserves the identity of that reference. This is rarely discussed in the litterature. 09:02:20 rahul: And if you don't realize that this is important, you will get interfaces that depend on implementation, and you modularity will go down the tube. 09:02:41 yes 09:02:43 I see 09:03:00 -!- bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:03:23 rahul: Algorithms people think of that as "implementation details", but I think it is the responsability of books on algorithms and data structures to discuss those things, because they influence the algorithms as well. 09:03:33 most algorithm books only care about integers and such as the elements of their data structures 09:03:40 right 09:04:13 people use the java collections so sloppily because they don't understand object identity 09:04:26 Yes, that too. So they forget all the subtle points that you need to think about for different domains. 09:04:42 and instead of keeping object references in data structures, they keep object IDs... ridiculous 09:05:12 and then you need a huge hash table of all objects ID -> object mappings in the whole application 09:05:23 So my book talks about all that, and also about things related to constant factors, as opposed to reducing everything to asymptotic complexity, which is no longer enough with modern processors. 09:05:36 demmel [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-095-016.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:05:52 arnee [n=arnee@a89-182-28-155.net-htp.de] has joined #lisp 09:06:08 very true 09:06:18 well, also with modern algorithms 09:06:29 the gains are to be made by reducing those constant factors now 09:06:34 indeed. 09:06:35 cache locality (?) seems to be no issue for java programmers 09:06:55 half of CS research reduces asymptotic complexity at the expense of constant factors 09:07:39 to the point where you need 10^50 elements in your data structure or something ludicrous like that to get a performance improvement over the old algorithm 09:07:46 pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.14.135] has joined #lisp 09:08:09 guaqua: yeah, I was gonna get to the issue of CPU vs. memory speed differences growing at an exponential rate 09:08:48 it's a cultural thing. people feel like they're not doing sciency-enough things if they don't invent something new in computational theory 09:09:05 new doesn't have to be impractical 09:09:17 and the O-notation doesn't help, it might even be the culprit 09:09:28 they can figure out how to do a matrix multiplication that is more cache friendly, and some researchers do that 09:10:39 what's the quote? 09:11:05 "show me your algorithm, and I still need to look at your data structures; show me your data structures and I don't need to see your algorithm" 09:11:08 something like that 09:11:58 -!- rlarson89 [n=rlarson8@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Success] 09:12:49 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.40] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:13:07 sure, I guess because you can determine how fast operations can be based on the way the data structure is organized 09:14:41 google is unhelpful for finding a proper attribution, sadly 09:16:43 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:21:29 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.166.151.40] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:24:57 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 09:25:15 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590e846f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:51 saikatc [n=saikatc@rescomp-09-132118.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 09:27:35 -!- gio12345 [n=jhjhxh@gprs1.gprs.ge] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:27:37 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@rescomp-09-132118.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 09:34:20 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.164.218] has left #lisp 09:34:40 -!- arnee 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[n=saikatc@rescomp-09-132118.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:14:31 hello serichsen 11:18:19 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:19:07 pdponze [n=pierre@144.85.120.251] has joined #lisp 11:20:20 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 11:23:54 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 11:26:00 -!- pdponze [n=pierre@144.85.120.251] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:26:00 Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 11:26:28 -!- rlarson87 [n=rlarson8@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 11:33:48 agz [n=mate@fibhost-66-233-135.fibernet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:35:22 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:35:26 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:35:49 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 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[i=benni@p5483B244.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:39 -!- billitch [n=billitch@p57A27FDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 13:15:25 hello, i have a doubt about functions being used as first-class objects 13:15:53 don't doubt it, it's true 13:16:00 hello spradnyesh, welcome to #anonymous-doubters 13:20:21 in http://paste.lisp.org/+1X5Y , what might i be doing wrong 13:21:12 secondly, i find it difficult to debug in emacs + slime. is there a IDE (i'm on linux, btw) that can help me? or is there a way on emacs+slime which will help me? 13:21:58 difficult to debug? in what way? 13:21:58 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:22:21 so far, it's the first time someone complained to me about SLIME debugging :D 13:23:05 p_l: when i give the final call in the above paste, i enter the debugger, but i'm not able to understand the stack trace 13:23:37 spradnyesh, what implementation are you using 13:23:53 Guthur: sbcl 13:24:17 spradnyesh: ((MY-SINGLE 'MY-INC) 4) <--- this is causing problems for rather obvious reason 13:24:28 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 13:24:30 umm i actually though it was quite good, compare to clisp anyway 13:25:28 -!- b3nt_pin [n=beagles@stjhnf0140w-142162064055.pppoe-dynamic.nl.aliant.net] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.75.1 [SeaMonkey 1.1.14/2008120416]"] 13:25:32 p_l: please pardon my ignorance, but i'm trying to use 'passing functions' for the 1st time, and am unable to grasp what might be causing the issue 13:25:51 i'd be grateful if you could kindly throw some light on it, or atleast guide me in the right direction :) 13:26:03 spradnyesh: you cannot put a list in operator position of a form. The first element of a form must be either a name of an operator or a lambda. 13:26:41 spradnyesh: you need FUNCALL or APPLY to do what you are trying 13:26:53 serichsen: ohh; i was thinking that the inner list will return a function, which will be taken as the 1st param (function name) for the outer list 13:27:37 girzel` [n=user@123.121.207.173] has joined #lisp 13:27:38 ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 13:27:52 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:28:06 spradnyesh: nope, (funcall (my-single ... would be better, iirc 13:28:12 Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 13:28:23 I still got problems with my-single, though (have to review that part...) 13:28:30 blackwolf [n=blackwol@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:59 billitch [n=billitch@p57A27FDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:20 (defun my-single (fn) (lambda (x) (funcall fn x))) (funcall (my-single #'my-inc) 4) => 5 13:30:06 p_l: i'm still trying to digest what you said, please gimme a min here 13:30:11 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 13:30:26 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:25 the point is the use of #' 13:31:35 nha [n=prefect@31-174.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 13:31:36 which is the same as (FUNCTION ...) 13:31:59 clhs function 13:32:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_fn.htm 13:32:00 milanj [n=milan@93.86.58.28] has joined #lisp 13:35:26 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.219.111] has joined #lisp 13:36:02 serichsen: thanks for the pointer. i'm not sure i understand why #' shouldn't be used in this case, but i'm going through the help page 13:37:31 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:38:11 -!- girzel` [n=user@123.121.207.173] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:39:34 spradnyesh: basically, it complained that you didn't pass a function - #'fn was doing lookup on function named fn, while you wanted to access function passed in variable fn (crappy explanation but should work) 13:39:34 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@88.174.11.170] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:39:38 ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-190-32.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:40:17 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:59 -!- plage [n=user@LRouen-151-71-116-193.w193-253.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:42:03 -!- ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:43:43 minion: tell spradnyesh about lisp-2 13:43:43 spradnyesh: please look at lisp-2: is at http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html 13:44:12 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 13:44:37 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.207.173] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:45:23 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 13:46:43 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has left #lisp 13:49:28 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@212.183.134.128] has quit [] 13:49:51 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-111-65.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 13:50:58 fax [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 13:51:13 gio123 [n=jhjhxh@gprs1.gprs.ge] has joined #lisp 13:52:05 is there anybody from portugal?? 13:52:36 reprore [n=reprore@18.105.7.214] has joined #lisp 13:53:04 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:54:03 -!- reprore [n=reprore@18.105.7.214] has quit [Client Quit] 13:54:11 gio123: perhaps on #portugal? Here we're from lisp. 13:55:21 spradnyesh: Notice that `v' on a stack frame will get you to the expression the frame represents 13:55:46 that is if you compiled your functions into the image 13:55:53 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 13:56:33 tcr: that's helpful, lemme try that 13:57:18 spradnyesh: Make sure that you write your functions in a .lisp file, and compile them into your running image via `C-c C-c' 13:57:33 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 13:57:43 that's how you typically use Slime; in particular, you do not type in the defuns at the REPL, you use the REPL to test your function definitions 13:58:06 spradnyesh: Also make sure that your .emacs contains (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf)) 14:00:51 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:00:52 tcr: can you webpaste your slime setup, please? 14:01:24 tcr: .emacs portion I mean :) 14:02:10 Ah and everyone should update their slime checkout for I yesterday merged in my improved autodoc stuff 14:02:45 tcr: what about slime-scratch? 14:04:51 what's about it? 14:05:32 nyquist: I don't have much extraordinary customizations. 14:05:40 tcr: would it work with 'v' on stackframe? 14:06:00 -!- rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:06:01 tcr: ok, will not bother :) 14:06:04 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:06:35 p_l: Yeah 14:07:34 tcr pasted ".emacs" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89640 14:07:45 nyquist: there you go 14:07:52 tcr: thanks 14:07:59 p0a [n=user@athedsl-384828.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:08:03 Hello, I'm reading 14:08:25 http://www.pps.jussieu.fr/~jch/software/cl-yacc/cl-yacc.html I'm trying to understand how the implemented grammar tells yacc to continue reading tokens after the first match 14:08:32 but I don't see any recursion involved. how can tihs be? 14:09:02 Or is teh recursion involved in 'expressi'on rules? 14:09:07 nyef: the isearch bit may be interesting; it's so C-w in isearch (C-s) will yank lisp-symbols (the hyphen - normally delimits words) 14:09:22 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-37-107.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:11:38 s/nyef/nyquist/ 14:11:54 I'm trying to build my grammar with (expression (expression expression) term), but I get reduce erros 14:12:07 that code does not though, even it does the same! 14:12:33 tcr: it is, looking at the paste atm 14:15:03 -!- billitch [n=billitch@p57A27FDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 14:15:30 I don't understand grammar at all, when you have some syntax in your mind what is the plan to write it down and figure out the necessary grammar for it? 14:15:54 p0a: it's not algorithmic 14:16:03 What do you mean? 14:16:03 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:16:14 p0a: you have to be an artist to use yacc 14:16:31 are you serious? 14:16:59 About the first. I know the second can't be serious. 14:18:47 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-167-10.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:28 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:23 *p0a* goes to the labriry to get bokoks 14:21:25 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-384828.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 14:23:44 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 14:25:18 scallop [n=scallop@mcn-ud07181.miyazaki-catv.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:25:59 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:04 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 14:31:14 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A18E7.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:36:58 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:39:01 plage [n=user@LRouen-151-71-116-193.w193-253.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:39:07 Good afternoon! 14:40:27 test1234 [n=test1234@p4FD3C6BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:41 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 14:41:11 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-121-13.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:42:57 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 14:47:26 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:59 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-14318.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 14:51:50 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:53:26 konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has joined #lisp 14:55:06 etate [n=et4te@ip503c4d9b.speed.planet.nl] has joined #lisp 14:55:14 is anyone here using core server? 14:56:21 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-100-97.netcologne.de] has quit [No route to host] 15:00:21 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:01:06 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-253-19.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:19 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host117.190-138-130.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:01:33 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 15:02:50 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:59 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:06:35 -!- plage [n=user@LRouen-151-71-116-193.w193-253.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:08:09 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-190-32.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:08:19 demmel [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-095-016.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:33 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.222.18] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 15:08:50 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 15:10:09 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-251.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:13:23 -!- demmel [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-095-016.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:13:30 demmel [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-095-016.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:32 milanj- [n=milan@93.86.115.18] has joined #lisp 15:13:46 TR2N [i=email@89-180-168-67.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 15:18:21 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.166.151.40] has left #lisp 15:19:48 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C899.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 15:21:00 happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.243.53] has joined #lisp 15:22:42 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.58.28] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:23:58 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.164.197] has joined #lisp 15:24:16 -!- happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.243.53] has quit [Client Quit] 15:24:30 xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 15:24:33 happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.243.53] has joined #lisp 15:26:11 fihi09` [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:42 -!- gio123 [n=jhjhxh@gprs1.gprs.ge] has left #lisp 15:27:39 sbt [n=sbt@214.80-203-101.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:28:05 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-167-10.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:30:12 Tordek [n=tordek@host156.190-137-183.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 15:35:26 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 15:36:41 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-237-227.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 15:38:54 Axius [n=ojof@92.82.92.21] has joined #lisp 15:45:49 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:52:35 Guthur_ [n=Michael@host86-141-208-98.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:55:31 Guthur__ [n=Michael@host86-138-194-173.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:57:29 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-140-191-199.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:57:46 -!- Guthur__ is now known as Guthur 16:01:29 -!- test1234 [n=test1234@p4FD3C6BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 16:02:54 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-253-19.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:04:17 -!- Guthur_ [n=Michael@host86-141-208-98.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:04:43 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:05:57 nunb [i=5ea08e0c@gateway/web/freenode/x-hwplbmmgdewbwhvp] has joined #lisp 16:09:31 do i have manually add a link to every dependency of an ASDF system which i wish to use 16:09:48 have/have to 16:10:24 -!- egomosis [n=egomosis@58.20.34.95] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:10:31 xoe [i=42a1d115@gateway/web/freenode/x-dzsvpvqyaimkdcae] has joined #lisp 16:10:33 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 16:13:24 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 16:13:51 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.82.92.21] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:15:15 Guthur: don't you use clbuild? 16:15:23 umm i think it seems easier to just push the folder of the system onto, *central-registry*, is this bad practive 16:15:29 Guthur, no, that's the wrong default of ASDF... look at this: http://dwim.hu/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=HEAD%20hu.dwim.asdf;a=headblob;f=/source/workspace.lisp 16:15:30 practice* 16:16:30 well, at least imho that's the wrong default. some oldtimers usually speak up in protection of the symlinks, but i haven't missed them for a moment since i started to use this scanner 16:17:06 knobo: I haven't looked at clbuild yet 16:17:36 attila_lendvai: i just tried syslinks there today, and i don't like 16:18:01 what you pasted there might be a good alternative 16:21:11 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:22:37 minion: memo for rtoym: usually, the fact that scalar operations leave the upper bits unchanged doesn't affect us (SSE is after all 2-operand), but that's not true for conversion operations. That's a fresh bug for us. Code review time (: 16:22:38 Remembered. I'll tell rtoym when he/she/it next speaks. 16:22:53 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-98-210-236-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:22:56 peddie [n=peddie@c-98-210-236-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:14 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:25:14 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 16:28:23 jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 16:29:35 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.166.88.244] has joined #lisp 16:31:08 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:32:05 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 16:33:08 vishsingh [n=vsingh@CPE0014bf4af6c2-CM000a739caee2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:33:51 -!- xoe [i=42a1d115@gateway/web/freenode/x-dzsvpvqyaimkdcae] has quit ["Page closed"] 16:35:20 ericjames [n=ericjeld@24.144.136.246] has joined #lisp 16:36:03 benny [n=benny@87.122.13.0] has joined #lisp 16:40:07 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:40:43 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 16:41:56 rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:45:10 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:50:22 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590e846f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:50:36 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590e846f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:49 Hello all. 16:51:52 -!- happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.243.53] has quit [] 16:52:36 plage [n=user@LRouen-151-71-116-193.w193-253.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:53:33 hey nyef 16:53:39 happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.243.53] has joined #lisp 16:53:55 Anything interesting happening? 16:54:40 Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:55:03 Slowly making progress on CLIM3. I wrote some more unit tests this morning. Also, it is the time of year when we come up with programming projects for the first-year master students. 16:55:33 Mmm. I've been doing a bit of reading about literate programming over the past two days. 16:55:44 and? 16:56:07 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:56:13 literate programming? 16:56:15 I'm almost convinced. 16:56:41 i didn't know literacy was a prerequisite, i could be screwed hehe 16:56:48 At the same time, I'm badly underwhelmed by Axiom. I looked at two of the volumes of its source, and they were unimpressive. 16:57:16 And what I've read about and from noweb is atrocious. 16:57:39 nyef: The way Knuth described it, it seemed like literate programming implied unmaintainable code. 16:57:41 It would be interesting to see a literate common lisp implementation, though. 16:57:50 nyef: That would work. 16:57:54 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 16:57:58 Because the spec is kind of fixed. 16:58:03 elurin` [n=user@88.254.105.247] has joined #lisp 16:58:24 How is it fixed? You just have to revise the documentation and the code at the same time. 16:58:46 oh see now what it means, i have my doubts whether human communication is really all the good at representing logic, it requires to much inference most of the time 16:58:51 manituuuu [n=as@orwell.fiit.stuba.sk] has joined #lisp 16:58:54 nyef: Not the way it was done by Knuth, unless by "revise" you mean "totally rewrite it". 16:59:47 nyef: But yes, when you have a spec that is not evolving, I can see how a literate implementation would be nice. 17:00:05 Even when it is evolving, it might be nice. 17:00:20 Oh, it's nice alright. Just hard to maintain. 17:00:35 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.166.88.244] has left #lisp 17:00:54 [i.e. virtually impossible, at least the incarnations I have seen] 17:01:09 Mmm... Perhaps there's a separate skill involved in creating a -maintainable- literate program, or a lack of tool support? 17:01:13 -!- elurin [n=user@85.106.145.208] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:01:24 nyef: Yes, I suspect that is the case. 17:01:43 I find the tool support issue to be one of my misgivings. Particularly in terms of source-level debugging. 17:01:46 elurin`` [n=user@88.224.104.247] has joined #lisp 17:01:48 ziga` [n=user@89.142.58.154] has joined #lisp 17:01:55 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 17:01:56 I enjoyed writing Documented TeX over the summer 17:02:21 colin__ [n=colin@118-169-33-188.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:54 What would really be impressive is converting part or all of SBCL to a literate style, but I think that would be a long-term project if it were ever to happen. 17:03:38 nyef what would be gain? 17:03:44 gained* 17:03:49 Good internals documentation. 17:04:15 it would probably put War and peace to shame though 17:04:16 -!- rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:04:19 for length 17:04:23 So? 17:04:33 so how is that useful 17:04:59 I fail to see the point of your argument. 17:05:28 i'm trying to get the point of literate programming 17:05:36 i'm not making a point 17:07:02 I'm... not sure how to answer that. 17:08:04 nyef: Perhaps one method for application code would be to make each implementation of each abstract data type a separate literate program. 17:08:08 well you said you were nearly convinced, so i was hoping for some insight 17:09:16 Guthur: I agree in principle with nyef. I personally would find the SBCL code much more accessible if it were literate. 17:10:27 Guthur: As it is, I don't quite know where to start, and given that I no longer have long periods of uninterupted time, I have to start over each time. Literate code would help a lot. 17:10:36 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:10:37 plage: Possibly. I was more thinking towards more systems-level stuff like SBCL, where I would likely want cross-cutting concerns like error handling, interrupt handling, compiler backends, etc. to be their own literate volumes and then combined to form the actual system. More a focus on cross-cutting concerns or major functionality, in a way. 17:11:11 partially documented by 10 year old papers and random mailing list postings or text fragments... More documentation, especially to help get the big picture and all the insidious interdependencies would definitely be good. 17:11:12 nyef: I can see that, yes. 17:11:46 The exposition of, say, pseudo-atomic, really needs to bring in parts of the C runtime and the compiler backend. 17:11:47 i don't think it would really, literate languages are terrible at conveying structures, they usually require a picture of the world, as according to Wittgenstein’s picture theory of language 17:12:08 i haven't read him though so can't comment to thoroughly 17:12:09 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:12:21 And it also needs to involve discussion of the whole interrupt-handling model, etc. 17:12:44 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 17:13:05 but for instance described to me a granny smith apple, including colour, in literate form, its not as easy i would imagine as defining an object in programming with a set of slot values 17:13:46 Guthur: Perhaps you would do well to find an example of a literate program that contains such a thing. 17:14:30 nyef is the many examples of literate programs 17:14:36 nyef: but really at this point, maybe that prose with a sprinkling of code would be just as well suited 17:15:14 pkhuong: As a static document not actually part of the build process, you mean? 17:15:34 rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:16:35 nyef: right. How much of that will change frequently enough that a tight coupling is needed? 17:17:13 It seems to me that covering all of the details sufficiently would end up duplicating all of the interrupt handling logic -anyway-. 17:17:37 -!- elurin` [n=user@88.254.105.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:19:10 the good news is that we agree on what should be documented ;) 17:19:47 Heh. 17:20:12 pdk` [n=test@c-24-131-66-4.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:20 I'm somewhat at a loss as to how to deal with the intersection of a cross-cutting concern (such as, say, error-traps) and per-backend implementation (as each backend has a slightly different notion of how the error trap information is embedded in the instruction stream). 17:24:49 nyef: I am getting convinced that documentation should not be attached to code at all, but there should be references between code and a graph of documentation. Liberating documentation from the association of a *particular* piece of code might solve cross-cutting concerns. We would need much more sophisticated tools to deal with such a thing though. 17:26:10 give us 5 more minutes and we'll have reinvented hypertext. 17:26:29 nyef: did you see the LP discussion on LtU? 17:26:35 froydnj: Nope. 17:26:48 nyef: . 17:27:24 plage: I think that at least some documentation -needs- to be associated with specific pieces of code and that code shown in-line with the documentation. 17:27:26 -!- demmel [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-095-016.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:28:34 nyef: GUIDs in comments? 17:28:38 http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/3663#comment-51865 makes a good point that some modern languages bring benefits that trump what LP was trying to achieve 17:28:51 what about a more multidimensional approach, have the documentation then go down a depth when you want to see the code 17:28:55 nyef: links to code + automatic generation of snippets? 17:29:21 instead of interweaving them have them on separate planes so to speak 17:29:45 Guthur: that sounds kinda like literate programming with folding editor 17:30:19 no because you still right normal code you just document, it pretty much the same as proper development now 17:30:30 right/write 17:31:17 its an integration of that documentation with the development environment, not the code 17:32:13 nyef: I believe you, but can you give an example of the kind you are thinking about? 17:33:06 plage: pseduo-atomic again. 17:33:07 Guthur: and how does that help capture cross-cutting concerns? 17:33:47 nyef: Hmm, I am afraid I don't know enough about SBCL internals to understand that. 17:34:25 plage: think of it as a locking mechanism that many different places have to know something about 17:34:27 pkhuong sorry i missed that part, i was reading one of knuths papers to, it was more a general suggest in terms of documentation 17:34:58 e.g. the compiler needs to know about it, the signal handling bits need to know about it, the gc needs (?) to know about it 17:35:19 It's a cross-cutting concern, in that it's fundamental in maintaining GC invariants, and is required to be fast because it's used in, for example, allocation sequences, etc. 17:36:35 The GC doesn't actually need to know about p-a beyond that the allocator is called within a p-a block and thus can't be interrupted and actual collection must be scheduled in terms of an asynchronous event delivered during p-a (and thus deferred to the end of p-a). 17:36:38 I see. But then the documentation should precisely *not* be attached to *a particular* piece of code, but to all the pieces of code that are involved, and we get hypertext, as pkhuong pointed out. 17:37:28 I was going to say that we should just stick org-mode links in comments and call it a day 17:37:30 Not if you're discussing the details of where a particular platform puts its "in pseduo-atomic" and "pseduo-atomic interrupted" variables and how they're managed. 17:37:46 Krystof: heh 17:37:58 (ha ha only serious) 17:38:29 *froydnj* waits for somebody to post slorg.el 17:38:50 WebTestMonkey [n=WebTestM@216.135.30.254] has joined #lisp 17:39:43 -!- WebTestMonkey [n=WebTestM@216.135.30.254] has left #lisp 17:40:49 I would just like to say that I disapprove of having the remaining 90% of the work on this external formats branch still to do 17:41:26 as usual 180% of the work adds up to more work than is idea 17:41:26 l 17:44:33 never so simple as you think it's going to be, eh? 17:45:35 that, and I continue to be unpleasantly surprised at a lack of testing rigour in existing implementations 17:48:46 grump grump grump 17:52:07 Existing implementations of what? (Sorry, not quite following). 17:52:17 existing implementations of external format functionality 17:52:25 karayan [n=saura@59.92.76.247] has joined #lisp 17:52:32 I see. 17:53:09 -!- rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:53:11 (no tests for chinese or japanese encodings; almost no sb-alien tests; no tests for sensible restart behaviour; almost no tests for any latin-x external format) 17:53:41 I can see how that would happen, though; even if it is an undesireable situation. 17:56:23 pon][ [n=pon][@h202n2-haes-a12.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 17:56:36 I can see how it could happen, but it's if not a violation of sbcl management policy it's something that the culture is meant to prevent 18:00:37 is there a way for me to override the *DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS* in my package but leave it untouched outside? 18:02:02 Guthur: Assuming that by "package" you mean what the CL specification does, you are suffering from a misapprehension that I am unable to begin to determine how to correct. Is this in fact the case, or did you mean something more to the effect of a project/collection-of-source-files? 18:03:17 BW^- [n=Miranda@86.34.16.1] has joined #lisp 18:03:45 Very well put! 18:03:57 Or perhaps within some given set of functions, possibly defined in terms of a set of external entry points, such as the public API of a library? 18:03:58 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 18:03:59 not really a simple no would be suffice 18:04:57 -!- karayan [n=saura@59.92.76.247] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:04:58 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:04:59 i really don't know why people feel the need to be so uncivil, are you like that to people you work with 18:05:21 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 18:05:30 Guthur: I don't think it was meant to be uncivil. 18:05:56 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:05:59 Guthur: And I think it is important to educate people who come here about things like the package system and how it works. 18:06:10 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:06:12 Packages for Dummies is a good PDF. 18:06:17 Hi 18:06:19 or is it idiot's guide to packages? 18:06:23 hello Sikander 18:06:44 Indeed. What I said was "what you asked doesn't make sense to me, did you mean to ask about -this- instead?" 18:06:51 plage and it what way was i educational 18:06:57 it/in 18:06:59 Guthur: Plus, it is common for people who come here to use non-standard terminology, and that makes it very hard to have a reasonable discussion. 18:08:23 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 18:08:44 Hrm... And what I said was also "if you actually meant what you asked then you misunderstood something along the way." 18:09:32 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 18:09:34 -!- TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 18:09:34 -!- blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 18:09:46 segoe [n=segoe@83.231.15.28] has joined #lisp 18:09:46 blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:01 TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has joined #lisp 18:11:04 sorted, thanks for the enlightenment 18:11:18 I am having trouble seeing how what I said could be interpreted as being uncivil. Could you perhaps enlighten me on this subject? 18:12:19 I think it has to do with nuances lost in a text-only medium like IRC. 18:12:44 "you are suffering from a misapprehension that I am unable to begin to determine how to correct" how is that constructive, that is someone who feels the need to put someone down for whatever reason i do not know 18:12:55 tic: It's good to get a pretty warped idea of CL packages. 18:12:56 maybe plage has a point though 18:12:59 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:13:09 -!- fax [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:13:59 It is constructive because it says, under the circumstances in which it would be true, "you are confused about something, but I don't know how to help you". 18:14:48 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 18:15:10 but you could have mentioned the possibility of lexical binding to achieve the change 18:15:41 From context, that something would be packages, giving you a number of options for correcting your confusion. 18:16:38 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:16:44 Guthur: lexical binding? I'm afraid I'll have to refer you to that quote on undetermined misapprehension. 18:17:35 You can't lexically bind *d-p-d*. I would likely have suggested one of a number of arrangements by which you could have used a dynamic binding once I knew what your actual goal was. 18:17:57 LiamH: I have a question about defmfun. Do you have a few minutes? 18:18:36 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-237-227.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:18:40 Sikander: Sure. I'm just going through your FFT stuff now, now that repo.or.cz is fixed. 18:19:00 -!- happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.243.53] has quit [] 18:19:02 Sikander: I've committed a trivial change updating the documentation. 18:19:26 (There are some scenarios under which you might have wanted to bind *d-p-d* while compiling and loading the code for your project, for example.) 18:19:52 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 18:19:53 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-195-29.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 18:19:55 tic [n=tic@c83-249-195-29.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:19:57 LiamH: Great, got it 18:20:11 happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.243.53] has joined #lisp 18:20:23 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 18:21:04 sorry for the confusion, i have a main loop where everything is running within, and therefore survives within that scope and placing the loop in a let achieves what i require, sorry for wasting your time 18:21:05 LiamH: I wanted to defgeneric fft-radix2-forward for the real and complex vectors, and use defmfun with :definition :method. But how would I go about specialising the method to the element type of the vector? 18:21:11 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:21:52 LiamH: right now, I have fft-complex-radix2-forward and fft-real-radix2-forward with :definition :generic 18:22:06 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:22:19 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:22:22 Sikander: I've seen it, and it think these can be unified. 18:22:45 LiamH: Exactly. I wanted to do that with methods, but don't understand exactly how to do this 18:23:04 Sikander: Right, I'm trying to find an example. 18:23:11 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.14.135] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:23:19 I think one of the BLAS functions might be like this. 18:23:47 LiamH: great. It would greatly improve the "raw" interface and make the cleaner interface in fft-interface much less hacky. 18:23:59 I'll have a look 18:24:19 I did a grep, though, but couldn't really find something similar before. 18:24:32 Right. I think so. I think the radix-2 thing might be hard to unify. 18:24:45 -!- plage [n=user@LRouen-151-71-116-193.w193-253.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:25:15 BTW does (= 1 (logcount num)) work for number-is-radix2? 18:25:15 LiamH: grep defgeneric * in linear-algebra gives me nothing :( 18:26:01 Sikander: Is the gf defined implicitly? 18:26:10 Sikander: look at matrix-product in blas2.lisp 18:26:15 LiamH: sure. So does (and (plusp x) (zerop (logand x (1- x)))). 18:26:19 nyef: ? 18:26:51 Sikander: defgeneric is optional; one could just defmethod. 18:26:52 Sikander: CL doesn't require defgeneric in order to introduce a new generic function, it will implicitly define one if you just use defmethod. 18:27:09 Yeah, I know. 18:27:16 And SBCL will bitch at you if you do so. 18:27:18 is-power-of-2 would probably be a better name. 18:27:31 The defgeneric is created in the macro expansion of defmfun. 18:27:35 hey, it's just a hacky interface at the moment 18:28:15 You know what part of SBCL could do with the literate programming treatment? The type system(s). 18:29:35 LiamH: logcount would be much better. Didn't know about it :( 18:29:53 Sikander: OK, I just made the change (not committed yet though). 18:30:15 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 18:30:31 LiamH: matrix-product isn't nearly as "complicated" at the gsl side as the different radix2 functions. 18:31:02 Sikander: Ok, but if you set aside the radix2 stuff, could something like that work? 18:32:02 LiamH: Also, the functions in fft-interface.lisp are not fool-proof... 18:32:15 LiamH: isn't that how I'm doing it now? 18:32:15 Xach, warped, as in bad? 18:32:18 Sikander: So we could at least make two defmfuns that cover the radix2 and non-radix2 cases, and let each expand into four methods. 18:32:42 LiamH: Wait, I don't get it. 18:33:27 LiamH: I looked at matrix-product in blas2.lisp 18:33:41 LiamH: It looks like a regular defmfun, like I use in e.g. fft-complex.lisp 18:33:53 In fourier-interface.lisp, I see calls to fft-real-radix2-transform and fft-complex-radix2-forward (likewise for non-radix2). Could those be unified with a single defmfun? 18:34:28 Note that blas2 unification of :float-complex if you have fsbv. 18:34:53 LiamH: I see 18:35:11 LiamH: That won't work unless you can adjust the gsl name depending on the type 18:35:21 LiamH: For complex it's callled ...-forward 18:35:29 LiamH: For real it's called ..._transform 18:35:34 Sikander: Yes, that's a complication, I see. 18:35:36 sorry, ..._forward 18:35:39 LiamH: Exactly 18:35:59 LiamH: Naming convention in GSL sort of sucks, as I said in the post to devel 18:36:10 I will work on fixing that, I'm not sure if it can be accomodated in defmfun as it is now. 18:36:12 (at least the FFT naming convention in gsl) 18:36:57 Sikander: You're right; as I went through porting GSL, I kept having to add exceptions and special cases because of the inconsistency. What I'm thinking is that there might be something like this that I've already accomodated. 18:37:11 Well, I have no problem in hiding this in the interface functions (which need cleaning up etc) 18:37:50 Sikander: Yes, that's fine, but for maintenance purposes I'd like to see if it can be simplified internally as well. 18:37:59 LiamH: If only gsl naming would be consistent, we could import most fft functions in one or two definitions 18:38:16 LiamH: I agree, which is why I was looking into defining them as methods 18:38:52 Sikander: The most painful part of writing GSLL was all the defmfun-related definitions, which were complicated in part because of the GSL inconsistency. 18:40:08 Here's a relevant example: there is a special case for BLAS names, because those names (which predate GSL by quite a bit) have one letter indicating the type. 18:40:27 LiamH: Yeah... It sucks. Also, the fft_complex_wavetable and fft_complex_wavetable_float. WHY? Why not fft_complex_float_wavetable?! 18:40:51 LiamH: I remember using netlib... Insane! 18:40:56 Yeah, I've seen that before too ... type at the end. 18:41:39 Well, to be fair, BLAS at least was invented in the Fortran 6-character-limit era, and it was just pulled in verbatim to GSL. 18:41:47 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.43] has joined #lisp 18:42:09 Yeah, it does make some sense. 18:42:33 LiamH: What is :component-float-type? 18:42:37 LiamH: blas is regular though, if only because they didn't have enough characters not to be. 18:43:30 pkhuong: true; GSL is mostly regular with a few oddities... some of which come up in the FFT. 18:44:39 LiamH: Hey hey hey hey... Can I do something like absolute-deviation in statistics/absolute-deviation.lisp? 18:44:54 Sikander: :component-float-type is the type of the float that makes up the element. So if the element-type is double-float or (complex double-float), the component-float-type is double-float. 18:45:12 -!- happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.243.53] has quit ["He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the aby] 18:45:14 LiamH: Good to know. 18:45:33 gaze [n=gaze@c-67-170-217-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:10 LiamH: In absolute-deviation, it seems as if you give a list of gsl functions, followed by a list of ways to call those functions. Is it possible to make that conditional? 18:46:26 Sikander: absolute-deviation has methods for each element-type, and a switch on the optional argument 18:46:45 Sikander: Yes, you can switch on optional/key arguments. 18:46:53 Hmm... 18:46:58 Sikander: You mean for the radix2 issue? 18:47:17 LiamH: perhaps. Maybe also for the non-radix2 ones 18:47:32 Sikander: I meant radix2/non-radix2 switch 18:47:41 LiamH: for example 18:47:58 LiamH: make an optional argument that defaults to the logcount sexp 18:47:59 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:48:23 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has left #lisp 18:48:34 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 18:49:40 Sikander: Hmmm. Ideally I'd hide that in an &aux variable because the user will not be explicitly supplying the dimension, but I don't think an &aux can be switched at present. 18:50:39 LiamH: Ah, would you also hide the stride, then? 18:50:50 LiamH: Seeing you aren't using it elsewhere either... 18:51:09 Sikander: Isn't stride something the user has to specify? 18:51:34 LiamH: Why not something like ... &optional (radix2 (= 1 (logcount (size vector)))) 18:52:05 Sikander: Stylistic; there's not reason a user would ever override the default, is there? 18:52:08 LiamH: Yes, but of course, you could also decide to FFT only the top part of the vector 18:52:20 LiamH: Yes, that's true 18:52:35 LiamH: Could you "make" it switch on &aux? 18:52:53 That's probably a terrible thing... 18:53:12 Job, I mean 18:53:30 Sikander: Oh, I see. And doesn't your stride argument also apply to radix2? I.e., the user could select part of the vector which is not radix2 and therefore not inferred from the size? 18:54:17 Sikander: Yeah, switching on &aux is not something I relish; since this is a one-off job, I'd just write out the defun manually to do the switch. 18:55:10 LiamH: stride doesn't only apply to radix2. 18:56:05 *Sikander* sighs. 18:56:11 argh, gsl fft... 18:56:22 *Sikander* wonders why he ever got into this... 18:56:40 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:57:01 Sikander: I know, I was wondering if it is possible for a user to supply a vector that is not processed in its entirety, so that the user would have to explicitly state whether it was to be radix2 or non-radix2, i.e., not derivable from its dimensions. But it's not important. 18:57:46 LiamH: Have you looked at make-fft-wavetable and make-fft-workspace? Is there a cleaner way to do this directly, instead of defining the objects separately and writing a defun around it? 18:59:13 Sikander: Take a look at actual-gsl-function-name and you'll see the special cases I made for BLAS naming. Also notice I have the possibility of "explicit listing of types with function names" which might be our solution here, if only I can remember how to use it. 18:59:25 LiamH: Personally, I wouldn't mind to have the decisions of which function to call/use also exposed to the user, like in C. Aside from that, I do think it's good to add an interface that just doesn't care, assumes stride 1 and that the user wants to process the whole vector 18:59:45 LiamH: I'll take a look 19:00:00 -!- nipra [n=nipra@117.195.96.55] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:00:33 In fact, I think that's the best choice. I'll try to find an example (I put it in for a reason, I hope it's still there). 19:02:16 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:04:07 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:04:50 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 19:05:16 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-125-87.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:05:33 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has quit [No route to host] 19:06:33 rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:06:35 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-52.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:07:49 hello 19:07:57 hey 19:08:19 hi Sikander 19:08:45 LiamH: I'm hungry, so I'm off for dinner now. I'll be back later. 19:09:15 Sikander: Ok, I'll try to figure out how to map the function names correctly between real/complex in defmfun. Bon apetit. 19:17:49 nyef: Regarding literate programming, do you know that it's trivial to get xref enabled for sbcl's own internals? It "only" enlarged the core file for 3mb for me. When I'll have time I'll commit a "customization flag"; how should I call it, sb-debug in spirit of sb-doc? 19:18:15 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:18:17 It's pretty cool to use M-? on a function, and see where it's used within the sbcl code base 19:18:32 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-31-198.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:18:47 nipra [n=nipra@117.195.96.55] has joined #lisp 19:18:49 Isn't sb-debug the name of a package already? How about sb-xref-internals or something along those lines? 19:18:52 tcr: sb-xref? 19:19:53 rouslan [n=rouslan@pool-70-109-151-129.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:00 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:20:24 How does PAIP compare with AIMA? 19:20:35 rouslan: the first is about common lisp, the latter about AI 19:21:25 tcr: So the former is more of an introduction? 19:21:27 -!- BW^- [n=Miranda@86.34.16.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:22:19 How did you conclude that from what I said? 19:22:31 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 19:22:41 rouslan: I don't know about AIMA, but PAIP is fairly good introduction to AI, but it also covers let's say "technical background": Common Lisp, compilators etc. 19:22:49 What do you mean "about common lisp"? 19:23:05 rouslan: PAIP teaches Common Lisp by examples with an AI touch 19:23:18 It's about AI secondarily 19:23:20 Perfect, sounds like exactly what I need. 19:23:56 Note also that PAIP is about "classical" AI more than it is about "modern" AI. It contains almost nothing about statistical or probablistic models, for example. 19:24:44 But logically it would be best to read HTDP before PAIP, right? 19:25:01 That largely depends on your background 19:25:26 pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.30.96] has joined #lisp 19:25:28 Are you new to programming? 19:25:36 Sort of. 19:25:38 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-56-124.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:26:04 I mean, would I need to know howto implement various data structures in Lisp for PAIP? 19:26:05 lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-56-124.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:26:37 PAIP is pretty advanced, it's not really a beginner's introduction to Common Lisp, it's for the rookie 19:26:46 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 19:26:54 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:27:14 nyef: the type system is scary 19:27:15 pfeyz [n=user@pool-70-107-159-219.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:20 Would it be ok to study both HTDP and PAIP at the same time? 19:27:25 Or should I finish HTDP first? 19:27:27 froydnj: My point exactly! 19:28:20 rouslan: Do one thing at a time with full attention. 19:28:22 Another thing, PAIP is more "theoretical", right? 19:28:37 (Actually it's a personality question) 19:29:54 -!- jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:30:43 rouslan, I'd say it's rather practical. 19:30:52 rouslan, with exercises. Very list-orietned. 19:30:58 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:02 PAIP is about AI programming in Lisp 19:31:15 AIMA is about Artificial Intelligence in general 19:31:31 AIMA covers more AI stuff 19:31:49 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.230.116] has joined #lisp 19:31:58 Are there any good theoretical texts involving Lisp? I know SICP has some of this (I believe one of the exercises simulates a Turing machine, for example). 19:31:58 seems that a new edition of AIMA is about to appear 'soon', maybe next months 19:32:22 'theoretical texts' - for what? 19:32:52 AI, computability, etc. 19:33:45 rouslan what is your goal? 19:33:57 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:34:35 AIMA is pretty, good but the examples in the book are in 'pseudo code' - there is example code for the AIMA topics in Lisp 19:34:55 if you want to learn some AI stuff, AIMA is pretty good 19:35:11 I want to leave that for college. 19:35:29 if you want to learn some more advanced Lisp programming, PAIP is also pretty good 19:36:34 -!- rouslan [n=rouslan@pool-70-109-151-129.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:37:05 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:39:26 how good is it for ANSI CL programming? 19:39:50 what is 'ANSI CL programming'? 19:41:42 _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:42:43 bgs100 [n=ian@h174.242.22.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:33 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.230.116] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:43:39 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-210-30.taconic.net] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:39 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:40 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:40 -!- deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:40 -!- ericjames [n=ericjeld@24.144.136.246] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:40 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:40 -!- erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:41 -!- acieroid [n=acieroid@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:41 -!- Adrinael 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from syn.] 19:43:44 -!- chii [i=chii@freenode/bot/chii] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:44 deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 19:43:44 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:44 -!- hohum_ [n=dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:45 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:45 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-68-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:45 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:45 -!- Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:46 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-173-48-104-141.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:46 -!- Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:46 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 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[n=emily@kuu.accela.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:49 billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-210-30.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:49 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:49 -!- dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:49 -!- anekos [n=anekos@61.197.117.56] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:49 -!- cods [n=cods@tuxee.net] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:50 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:50 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-215-148-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:50 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:50 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:50 -!- Borbus [i=borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:50 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:50 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:51 -!- dmm_ [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:51 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:51 -!- ejs [n=eugen@213-117-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:43:51 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Nick collision from syn.] 19:45:53 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 19:45:53 19:45:53 -!- names: ccl-logbot arbscht ve coyo Demosthenes antifuchs daniel Aisling bakkdoor _3b dlowe srcerer eno anekos Xof asksol deepfire HET2 Edico Guest22954 bdowning rtoym Ogedei codemonkeyx varjag amnesiac mle dmiles_afk dalkvist blast_hardcheese erg frontiers sepi colin Alabaman DrunkTomato ejs Draggor dcrawford borism bfein krappie fgtech TR2N etate billstclai fnordus aja djinni` spacebat kingless StanleyD bgs100 Foofie kejsaren Taggnostr lichtblau 19:45:53 -!- names: pavelludiq nipra timor rm200910 plutonas gaze ayrnieu stepnem tic looooop Odin- TDT segoe Sikander pon][ pdk` ziga` elurin`` Modius morphling vishsingh ia peddie pem Guthur Tordek sbt fihi09` xristos marioxcc milanj- Nshag redline6561 Jabberwockey davazp sepult` kpreid scallop hefner Patzy ikki nha Vyazovoi ThomasI LiamH nowhere_man hugod JuanDaugherty hkBst tcr Ralith serichsen lispm nyquist s0ber Caelum lhz mishoo legumbre_ mrSpec poet 19:45:53 -!- names: Vonunov lpolzer_ mjonsson knobo rkm lemoinem schme sellout mogunus ntd mtd ianmcorvidae Jasko mathrick leadnose tsuru xan-afk_ joga lnostdal Spaghettini cvandusen piso clog_ lukjad007 rdd galdor Ginei_Morioka beach gz skeptomai|away xinming Fufie nyef KatrinaTheLamia slather easyE maskd wlr lharc sytse Xach pok robewald mgr hoeq rey_ dostoyevsky delYsid AntiSpamMeta mornfall hdurer_ jyujin p_l rsynnott1 michaelw johs fawxtin jyujin_ housel 19:45:53 -!- names: Pepe_ EinarDogfin rlonstein hdurer__ ski ecraven joast luis qidush vsync zbigniew pixel5 mdj tltstc retupmoca rutski rlb3 rahul tarbo_ jrockway Orest^bnc j0ni gonzojive specbot minion rapacity jsnell r0bby foom sjbach nickcave guenthr guaqua kloeri vcgomes pkhuong Guest67387 kuwabara2 setheus egn Khisanth rotty thijso yahooooo koollman qed ineiros yacin rbancroft Wombatzus z0d cipher l_a_m zeroish mikezor myrkraverk scode hsaliak_ metric 19:45:53 -!- names: phadthai herbieB spiaggia Elench tessier whoppix zeroish` pragma_ rsynnott lisppaste trittweiler madnificent h3r3tic ramus` rread majhool ``Erik pookey nasloc__ nicktastique PissedNumlock pjb Zhivago sykopomp nullman stoop BrianRice Soulman rullie tvaalen 19:45:53 eihrul [n=eihrul@ip72-193-224-224.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:56 Dodek [n=dodek@156.17.1.251] has joined #lisp 19:45:56 araujo [n=araujo@190.38.49.150] has joined #lisp 19:45:59 fatalnix1995 [n=Fatalnix@173.45.238.209] has joined #lisp 19:46:01 -!- billstclai is now known as billstclair 19:46:03 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-93.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:46:05 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-52.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:46:10 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:46:48 sikander: net split or some variant thereof 19:46:56 or that 19:47:09 ah 19:47:30 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 19:47:33 -!- rkm [n=rkm@rrcs-96-10-234-78.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 19:47:37 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:47:50 -!- Guest22954 is now known as attila_lendvai 19:48:22 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:34 Nick collision seems rather odd, though. Perhaps someone found a hole in the server protocol and authentication or something. 19:48:42 antoszka [n=antoszka@chello087206024243.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 19:48:44 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 19:48:46 acieroid [n=acieroid@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 19:48:47 cpt_nemo [i=cpt_nemo@saga.ftbfs.de] has joined #lisp 19:48:52 esden [n=esdentem@repl.esden.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:52 Borbus [i=borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:52 Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 19:48:54 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 19:48:57 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-68-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:57 cow-orker [n=foobar@pogostick.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:58 ampleyfly [n=ampleyfl@fritz.lysator.liu.se] has joined #lisp 19:48:59 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 19:49:01 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 19:49:04 cods [n=cods@tuxee.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:09 ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:10 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229177070.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:49:10 DrForr [n=drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:14 raptelan [n=Casey@209.40.204.178] has joined #lisp 19:49:34 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:37 MakoryuOnIce [n=vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:38 hohum [n=dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:43 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:49:43 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:49:45 minion: memo for stassats: would be cool if you could add swank-match.lisp to swank.asd 19:49:46 Remembered. I'll tell stassats when he/she/it next speaks. 19:49:50 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-24-36.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 19:50:01 anyone familiar with CXML and know a way of avoiding it parsing text within elements that don't require it, it creates a text DOM element for every newline etc, i have tried setting a DTD to try explicitly tell it that this is not required but it still seems to do it, 19:50:04 manituuuu [n=as@orwell.fiit.stuba.sk] has joined #lisp 19:50:17 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 19:50:18 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 19:50:21 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-173-48-104-141.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:51 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:51:24 Guthur: Funny, I thought that was a requirement of XML parsing? Certainly, a number of XML systems -output- the newlines immediately before the close of a tag (#\>). 19:51:31 -!- p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-xzoghxvnxfajuphh] has quit [K-lined] 19:51:32 Adlai [n=Adlai@93-172-180-73.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 19:51:38 -!- Edico [n=Dezlagra@86.126.162.146] has left #lisp 19:51:55 LiamH pasted "FFT switch for Sikander" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89649 19:52:09 Bucciarati [n=buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:34 LiamH: Great, I'll test it out 19:52:51 Sikander: oh, finished your meal already? 19:53:00 LiamH: Will you be pushing this to the branch? If not, could you push all changes you have so far? 19:53:02 -!- cmm is now known as Guest84096 19:53:02 -!- attila_lendvai is now known as Guest31692 19:53:03 LiamH: Yep. 19:53:40 nyef i suppose it will need it for successfully outputting the doc, never used a XML DOM before to be fair 19:53:43 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 19:53:46 Sikander: If you wish. I held off because I'm not sure how you want to organize things. Shall we discard the separate fft-real.lisp and fft-complex.lisp and unify them into a single file? 19:53:57 -!- Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit ["leaving"] 19:54:15 would be nice if it could hide that when its not part of the DTD though 19:54:31 LiamH: Definately, if this works. I can also do the rewrite if you want, but if you already have it... 19:54:44 p_l [i=540dde94@gateway/web/freenode/x-bb7d29bea1795e6a] has joined #lisp 19:55:00 LiamH: I just separated them because it seemed like the right thing to do at the time. 19:55:32 Sikander: of course; I will rewrite those and commit it, and you can test what I've done. 19:55:48 K 19:56:01 Lemme know when I can have a go at it. 19:56:52 LiamH: Be careful, though, because the half-complex stuff still needs to be implemented separately then 19:57:18 And the radix2 isn't incorporated into the interface yet. 19:57:32 LiamH: you mean non-radix2 19:57:35 ? 19:57:38 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:57:39 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:57:48 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 19:57:50 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 19:57:51 I mean the issue of radix2/non-radix2 switching 19:57:56 Oh, ok 19:58:25 In the paste, you use the radix 2 functions, but the name of the function doesn't indicate that. 19:58:41 Sikander: Yeah, I realize that; I just changed it. 19:58:55 i suppose i could extend the DOM nodes with a DTD view which only has the relevant content 19:59:09 pfeyz [n=user@pool-70-107-159-219.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:40 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 20:00:08 LiamH: Is there a similar thing for defmobject (wavetables and workspaces)? 20:00:50 Sikander: Similar to what? The switching of names? I'm not sure, but I think it should be the same. 20:01:37 LiamH: yes, switching of names. but the switch should not be on the element type of the supplied marray, but on a parameter that indicates the element type instead 20:02:05 Sikander: Ah, well I'd have to look in to that. 20:03:07 LiamH: I don't want to put you to work or anything, I mean I can look at all this. I'll probably have some questions now and then which I'm sure I can ask either here or on the devel list. 20:03:20 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 20:03:31 -!- araujo [n=araujo@190.38.49.150] has quit [Client Quit] 20:03:33 aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:03:43 Sikander: no problem. 20:03:55 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 20:04:40 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 20:05:25 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:05:27 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:05:38 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 20:05:40 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 20:08:06 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:08:31 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 20:09:26 -!- aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:11:53 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-32-146.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:12:35 Sikander: OK, pushed my changes. See if that makes sense, compiles, runs tests etc. If so, we can think about the next set of changes. 20:12:42 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:12:42 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:12:48 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 20:12:50 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 20:13:14 LiamH: Thanks, will do. ATM I'm working on something else, but in the course of the week I will check everything and contact you again. 20:13:40 Sikander: OK. I need to go rake leaves, back in a while. 20:14:27 Have fun 20:16:09 benny` [n=benny@87.122.13.0] has joined #lisp 20:17:09 elurin``` [n=user@88.224.40.255] has joined #lisp 20:18:26 chii [i=chii@freenode/bot/chii] has joined #lisp 20:18:43 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:18:43 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:18:48 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 20:18:50 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 20:19:39 highb [n=highb@shell.onid.oregonstate.edu] has joined #lisp 20:22:38 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 20:22:50 -!- galdor [n=galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 20:24:06 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:26:04 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:26:06 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:26:20 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 20:26:21 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 20:27:20 -!- pfeyz [n=user@pool-70-107-159-219.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:27:47 clhs vector-push-extend 20:27:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_vec_ps.htm 20:30:31 -!- elurin`` [n=user@88.224.104.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:30:36 oh you can override *DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS* in package, just use shadow 20:31:49 Yes, but that just gets you a different symbol, not the one used by merge-pathnames et al. 20:32:20 ah ok 20:33:20 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:33:20 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:33:33 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 20:33:36 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 20:38:27 Is it possible to close over a function, and then redefine it with defun, referencing the old value in the new definition? 20:38:34 ... In clweb, section 20, why is #\Newline in *whitespace* twice? 20:38:48 I seem to remember there being a passage in the spec saying that's not possible 20:38:50 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-121-13.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:39:15 Adlai: I don't know about not possible, but it's certainly not a bright-sounding idea. 20:40:03 hmm 20:40:14 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:40:18 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:40:34 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 20:40:36 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 20:40:36 clhs fdefinition 20:40:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fdefin.htm 20:41:27 http://www.tfeb.org/programs/lisp/memoize.lisp 20:42:37 -!- kingless [n=user@adsl-144-172-131.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:42:49 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:07 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:46:10 -!- segoe [n=segoe@83.231.15.28] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:47:11 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:47:16 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 20:47:26 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 20:47:35 -!- colin [n=colin@118-169-33-188.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:47:50 colin [n=colin@118-169-33-188.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:30 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 20:49:32 Mefached [n=jonathan@c-76-107-220-113.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:24 I'm using emacs and SLIME to learn Lisp, and it's been working right for the past week, but now it's giving me problems. When I try to connect to SLIME, it freezes when it tries to connect to a port. 20:51:41 -!- colin [n=colin@118-169-33-188.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:51:44 grovey it seems CXML can remove all those unwanted text nodes. 20:51:55 colin [n=colin@118-169-33-188.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:46 redblue [i=star@ppp093.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:53:08 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 20:53:17 -!- colin [n=colin@118-169-33-188.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:53:18 hhh paraphrased - Hi all, We have now worked out the cause of the recent killings... We apologise for the balls-up and the inconvenience caused. Thank you and have a nice evening 20:53:29 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:53:29 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:53:31 colin__ [n=colin@118-169-33-188.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:36 they know how to write creepy wallops 20:53:36 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 20:53:38 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 20:58:58 heh 21:00:49 -!- troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:01:22 rm200910_ [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:01:33 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:01:33 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:01:44 looooop 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has left #lisp 21:54:59 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:55:00 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:55:02 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:55:12 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 21:55:14 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 22:01:18 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:01:18 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:01:28 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 22:01:30 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 22:02:44 nyef: back to you literate programming discussion earlier, there is one language, and hate mention it as i dispise it, that kind of had that as it's goal, COBOL 22:03:35 Guthur: literate programming? 22:03:45 Guthur: COBOL has nothing to do with tat 22:03:46 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@rescomp-09-132118.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:03:48 that 22:04:16 -!- etate [n=et4te@ip503c4d9b.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:04:29 really, have you used it, trust me its like writing a story sometimes 22:04:31 -!- HET2 [n=diman@80.3.31.126] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:04:44 Guthur: that has nothing to do with literate programming 22:05:04 well according to the descriptions i have read it is 22:05:05 literate programming is about writing the story of _why_. Cobol is about writing the story of _what_ 22:05:08 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:05:30 HUGE difference there 22:05:45 you should read the source code to TeX to get an idea of what it's all about 22:05:47 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-251.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:06:03 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 22:06:10 -!- ziga` [n=user@89.142.58.154] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:06:19 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:22 the order code appears in the source is quite different from how it is executed 22:06:31 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 22:06:32 -!- segoe [n=segoe@83.231.107.129] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:06:41 code appears where it's conceptually better to introduce it 22:07:05 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:07:15 cobol code is the equivalent of the /* increment i by one */ comment. 22:07:20 o hai rahul :) 22:07:32 unnecessarily verbose, and not helpful 22:07:43 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has left #lisp 22:07:43 :) 22:07:51 antifuchs: right 22:07:53 antifuchs tell me about it 22:08:19 billitch_ [n=billitch@192.106.113.82.net.de.o2.com] has joined #lisp 22:08:19 Guthur: and that has nothing to do with literate programming 22:08:24 i'm trying to see how literate programming isn't the same, honestly i'd like to see its worth 22:08:27 whereas well-documented code strips away these tiny details and tells you what is supposed to be going on 22:08:47 Guthur: read the TeX source code. the code is horrid, but it's a good example of literate programming. 22:08:58 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:09:01 maybe there is just really bad examples 22:09:04 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 22:09:10 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 22:09:11 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590e846f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:09:57 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:10:11 -!- billitch [n=billitch@82.113.121.202] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:10:11 -!- billitch_ is now known as billitch 22:10:13 I think that before you go and write essays explaining your code, you should make the code itself readable... only then, if it's still a garbled mess, go ahead and literatify it. 22:10:15 but surely a lot of code should be blackbox when it comes creating complex software 22:10:53 wgl_ [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 22:11:29 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82.170.33.173] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:11:32 "should be"? 22:11:37 w8lvn [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 22:11:41 you're saying no one should be able to understand the code? 22:11:42 it should have good well documented interfaces 22:11:54 the more complex the code the MORE IMPORTANT it is to document it well 22:11:56 Adlai: I disagree. Your code is itself an essay in the classical meaning of the term ("attempt"). Recording your impression of the design as you create the code is very helpful. 22:12:01 *w8lvn* test 22:12:05 so that people looking at it in the future don't break it 22:12:15 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 22:12:15 w8lvn: Test failed. 22:12:38 nyef: with what error code? 22:12:49 wgl_: Permission denied. 22:12:50 this is #lisp 22:12:51 wgl_: Dunno. It's a lousy test framework. 22:12:57 we don't have error codes 22:13:03 we have condition classes! 22:13:06 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.8] has joined #lisp 22:13:16 just trying an additional nick. 22:13:25 rahul: oh yes we do. they just tend to be non-integral (: 22:13:55 *w8lvn* (handler-case (test 'this 'nick) (error (e) (format t "test failed~%")) 22:13:55 rahul there is differing levels of exposure for code a lot of the time, a user of API wants a different view from a maintainer, he wants the interface clear and concise 22:14:34 -!- wgl_ is now known as wgl 22:14:47 w8lvn - it suggests that you love to wait, or that you love to be forced towards a greater mass. 22:14:55 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:14:55 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 22:14:59 Adlai: The few times I've taken to writing a program or library in an exploratory manner by writing prose first as an essay have been fun and have resulted in very good exposition as well as decently working code, and it has been a lot easier to figure out what needed doing. 22:15:09 Guthur: literate programming is orthogonal to API documentation 22:15:18 And this was with manually tangling the code. 22:15:22 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-67-109-95.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:29 -!- w8lvn [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit ["Disconn@#$%"] 22:15:37 rahul so its for the maintainer just? 22:15:37 (Actually, do I have an example of that?) 22:15:39 *rahul* automatically tangles nyef 22:15:40 -!- wgl is now known as w8lvn 22:15:48 Gah! 22:15:55 Guthur: "the"? you think code ever has a single maintainer? 22:15:55 rahul: I'm mixed up enough already, thanks. 22:16:00 heh 22:16:09 -!- w8lvn is now known as wgl 22:16:10 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 22:16:10 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 22:16:13 maintainer(s) then 22:16:15 no robot tentacle games before midnight 22:16:19 *rahul* weaves nyef into a nice sweater 22:16:37 A -woven- sweater? That's a frightening concept. 22:16:40 etate [n=et4te@ip503c4d9b.speed.planet.nl] has joined #lisp 22:16:40 antifuchs - Gremlins taught me that you're supposed to do those sorts of things _before_ midnight. 22:16:52 wgl_ [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 22:16:59 (Hrm... Maybe I should have a literate programming system where the operations are knit and purl?) 22:17:02 Guthur: right. it's a way for them to communicate 22:17:04 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:08 heh 22:17:29 Ah, found it! http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/article-drafts/object-memory-dumper.txt 22:18:01 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@team0xf.com] has left #lisp 22:18:07 -!- tiri [i=tiri@ppp-196-29-35-134.utande.co.zw] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:18:45 rahul but if you give you functions/macros/variables meaningful names and layout your code well do you not achieve a lot of it anyway 22:18:55 s/you/your 22:19:09 Guthur: not at all 22:19:24 Guthur: how does a name tell you WHY the code is structured as it is? 22:19:24 -!- vishsingh [n=vsingh@CPE0014bf4af6c2-CM000a739caee2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:20:02 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.210.208] has joined #lisp 22:20:20 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 22:21:16 i think the problem as i see it, is that english is not the best why to describe logic a lot of the time, and is that not why formal logic was invented 22:21:38 -!- Mefached [n=jonathan@c-76-107-220-113.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:21:52 Guthur: and "why" has nothing to do with logic 22:22:06 not formal logic, anyway 22:22:08 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:22:20 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 22:22:21 it's mostly value judgements 22:23:32 koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.108.233] has joined #lisp 22:24:31 minion: memo for Fare: In regards to our conversation of last Thursday evening, http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/faslizer.lisp has some very rough code to dump part of the contents of a FASL file. It's pretty rough, contains an sbcl-os-specific FOP, but might be of some small use. 22:24:32 Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks. 22:25:00 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 22:25:18 nyef: neat contrasting example, by the way 22:25:22 there is no why in there at all (: 22:25:28 Is there a function that returns the most significant on bit of an integer? 22:25:32 -!- nipra [n=nipra@117.195.96.55] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:26:07 antifuchs: you usually don't WANT to know why nyef does things :) 22:26:20 rahul: call it morbid curiosity (: 22:26:31 just understanding the though process used in constructing it is enough for me, at least :P 22:26:45 antifuchs: Actually, there's at least some why in there. But yeah, it's mostly a stream-of-consciousness thing. 22:26:56 LiamH: no. but there is a constant called 1 22:27:06 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:27:17 LiamH: maybe you're asking for the position? integer-length? 22:27:25 rahul: yes 22:27:27 thanks 22:27:57 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:28:00 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C899.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 22:28:17 -!- Ogedei [n=user@85.178.214.221] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:29:01 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:29:09 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:29:21 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 22:29:23 "Because we wish to be able to examine other type systems [...]" I think that's sufficient explanation of why 22:31:13 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:32:44 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 22:35:10 -!- nyquist [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:35:15 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:35:20 Anyway, that's not truly literate programming, but... it sortof points the way, and it was fun to do. 22:35:25 its definitely hard to find good examples, from the literate programming wiki i can see why some said the conversation would just turn to hyperlinks 22:35:40 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 22:36:45 No, no... The comment was -hypertext-, not links. 22:37:37 serichsen pasted "mapcan subtlety" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89658 22:37:53 nyef hypertext without links is just formatted text 22:38:23 links are pretty fundamental to the definition of hypertext actually 22:38:39 serichsen: usually you can hit ctrl-c and get a backtrace 22:38:55 Guthur: hypertext is links + text 22:39:11 rahul: sorry, it's an exercise for the reader :) and the backtrace is not necessarily helpful here 22:39:24 Guthur: I don't see how code turns into hyperlinks 22:39:25 ... One or both of us is confused. Quite possibly me. 22:40:06 Guthur: the text is meant to be read ALONG WTIH the code, not as a "footnote" 22:41:07 -!- milanj- [n=milan@93.86.115.18] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:41:30 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:41:35 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 22:42:11 rahul i said that was the impression from the literate programming wiki, it just replaced code with a hyperlink to code, admittedly non of the why stuff 22:42:17 serichsen: I can only see why it would hang if you used nsubst 22:42:19 maybe that was why it felt weak 22:42:20 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 22:42:30 Guthur: huh? 22:43:04 Guthur: as I said, read the TeX source code. it's a story about how the program works with the code presented in bits and pieces along the way 22:44:30 oh right 22:44:41 nyef: why exactly would a woven sweater be a scary concept? 22:45:28 Here is an example of 'hyperlinky literate programming': http://www.mozart-oz.org/documentation/apptut/node18.html#part.distributed.applications 22:45:48 billitch_ [n=billitch@82.113.106.94] has joined #lisp 22:46:05 nipra [n=nipra@117.195.96.55] has joined #lisp 22:46:29 rahul: Because woven and knitted fabric have very different textures and drape and other fabricy attributes, and all of the sweater design literature I've seen is in terms of knitting and not weaving. 22:47:01 Basically, it's frightening because it badly breaks my mental model of what a sweater is. 22:47:21 rahul: want a hint? 22:47:25 nyef - where is your God now? http://www.kaboodle.com/reviews/blue-knitted-woven-sweater-winter-flat-boots-8 22:47:48 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-121-13.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:47:51 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:48:09 aside from specbot and google, does there exist a searchable clhs on the web? 22:48:27 Sikander http://l1sp.org/html/ 22:48:40 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:48:46 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 22:48:49 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 22:49:06 ayrnieu: nice, thanks 22:49:07 ayrnieu: That's... odd. And hand knit, per the (not very) detailed description. 22:49:49 I'm wondering where the heck the concept of a "sweater boot" came from, though. 22:51:05 seems to follow naturally from Ugg boots. 22:52:17 serichsen annotated #89658 "hint" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89658#1 22:53:20 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.30.96] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:53:52 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:55:20 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:55:25 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 22:55:28 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 22:55:53 -!- billitch_ [n=billitch@82.113.106.94] has quit [] 22:56:50 -!- billitch [n=billitch@192.106.113.82.net.de.o2.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:58:15 milanj [n=milan@93.86.115.18] has joined #lisp 22:58:33 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.115.18] has quit [Client Quit] 23:01:06 hhh the version numbering of TeX has become Pi to an ever increasing number of decimal places 23:01:24 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:02:21 Guthur: Yes. That was the point. 23:02:27 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:02:33 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:02:41 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 23:02:42 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 23:02:45 Every time a bugfix is applied the version number gains an additional digit of Pi. 23:04:44 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C899.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:09 well since it became version 3.1 at least, though i suppose you could count 3.0 at a push, saying it is to zero decimal places 23:06:13 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #lisp 23:06:26 -!- varjag [n=eugene@80.202.117.103] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:07:42 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 23:09:25 Sikander: is there any reason to specify a length that is different than the size of the vector? 23:09:41 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:09:41 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:09:47 Sikander: I should say an "n" 23:09:51 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 23:09:52 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 23:10:38 LiamH: Generally, no. 23:10:46 LiamH: However... 23:11:06 nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 23:11:12 "different from", by the way 23:11:39 LiamH: I can see that when you obtain data that contains data where there are interesting and non-interesting regions, I can imagine that someone would only want to FFT the interesting region 23:12:05 LiamH: However, such a person might most likely first "cut out" that region and then perform an FFT on it, rather than doing it in-place 23:12:30 is length not the number of elements where as size is the capacity 23:12:33 With "cut out" I mean "copy to another vector" 23:12:38 Sikander: OK, right. It's not clear to me what happens if you give an n that is not the size of the vector. 23:13:00 LiamH: gsll just considers 0 to n-1 as the array with data 23:13:13 Sikander: if nsize it gives an error? 23:13:33 LiamH: If n>size, it probably gives a segfault or memory corruption 23:13:43 LiamH: You know how C is with these things 23:14:30 LiamH: But yes, if n < size, then from 0 to n-1 you have the FFT of the original data there, and from n to size the original data is left untouched. 23:14:34 -!- sbt [n=sbt@214.80-203-101.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:14:40 LiamH: Mixed freq and time trace (?!) 23:15:14 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:15:51 Sikander: Yes. My practice has been to eliminate array dimension specifications where possible. Since the GSLL vector itself contains the n information, let's use that. 23:17:04 LiamH: Can you then dispatch radix-2 vs mixed-radix on the length of the array? 23:17:20 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:17:20 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:17:20 Sikander: Yes, that's my intent. 23:17:26 LiamH: Else a condition must be raised 23:17:29 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 23:17:30 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 23:17:51 LiamH: Well, not as it is now. You're going to have a difficult time with the real ffts 23:18:42 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.54.174] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:18:45 LiamH: You are aware of the subtlety known as half-complex, right? 23:19:20 Sikander: I saw you had it, don't know what it means. 23:19:36 LiamH: It is related to real ffts 23:20:01 -!- benny` is now known as benny 23:20:05 LiamH: A real fft operates on an array of reals, and does this in-place 23:20:25 LiamH: However an fft of real data is still complex. 23:20:35 why in-place? 23:20:37 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-253-19.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:07 LiamH: Due to the nature of real data (0 phase), there is a certain symmetry in the fft data 23:21:25 vishsingh [n=vsingh@CPE0014bf4af6c2-CM000a739caee2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:30 LiamH: This redundancy allows the complex data to be stored in the real array. 23:21:35 fliptopbox [n=fliptopb@cpe-74-66-68-193.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:42 Sikander: OK 23:21:51 LiamH: Thus the FFT of a real array is from a GSLL point of view real, but from a conceptual point of view complex 23:22:15 LiamH: So you have to know how to read it. You can use half-complex-unpack to unpack it to a full-blown complex array. 23:22:53 LiamH: But then you cannot perform the half-complex-inverse to obtain the real data again. You'd have to use complex-inverse and obtain complex data (with imaginary parts close to 0) 23:23:08 serichsen: That is how gsl's ffts do "their stuff" 23:23:24 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:23:55 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:23:59 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 23:24:00 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 23:25:17 *p_l* decides that his next web app is going to be in Lisp, even if he has to write the framework himself 23:26:24 -!- nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:26:46 Sikander: Workspaces and wavetables are only needed for non-radix2 arrays? 23:27:09 LiamH: yes 23:27:34 LiamH: They should have the same length and type as the vector you are about to perform the fft on 23:27:51 Sikander: ah, crap 23:27:57 LiamH: And wavetables have a half-complex type as well. For workspaces it's just the real one. 23:28:08 LiamH: Indeed. Crap, indeed. 23:28:35 LiamH: You can see why I made (internally) such a mess out of it. 23:28:44 Sikander: no, you did a good job. 23:28:50 LiamH: It's difficult to keep it clean internally and consistent externally 23:28:54 p_l are the existing frameworks not much use? 23:29:22 LiamH: Well, I'm happy I could contribute some type of code :) 23:29:38 Guthur: It's not that, it's just that not everything fits me (though I'm starting to "get" UCW) 23:30:09 web seems to be one of the biggest sections in cliki 23:30:14 Sikander: To keep it simple I'm just working on the forward transform. I think I'm getting there, but I haven't looked at the half-complex case yet. 23:30:39 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:30:40 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:30:42 LiamH: I have to admit, I don't quite understand the forward for half-complex. 23:30:50 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 23:30:51 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 23:31:05 LiamH: Typically you just want to forward transform real data, and backward or inverse the half-complex (to obtain real data again) 23:31:17 Sikander: OK 23:31:24 Guthur: Because there are so many people and so many of them like different things, and CL allows to implement the parts you need easily, so why bother with comitting to a full framework? :P 23:32:02 the wheel can always be rounder as well, hehe only kidding 23:32:20 another thing is that if I join as developer to some company, next time I'm making sure I will have at least one coworker 23:32:34 to blame? 23:33:02 -!- fliptopbox [n=fliptopb@cpe-74-66-68-193.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 23:33:15 blame, delegate...something else i can't think of 23:33:25 Guthur: To make sure I work 23:33:59 ya that is a tough one 23:34:16 LiamH: I'm trying my hand at a processing and plotting environment around gsll :) I have to stop doing these big pet projects 23:34:18 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:34:38 going to check out that UCW, i have no web stuff planned though 23:34:45 Sikander: Oh plotting is one of my ambitions, but a long, long way off. 23:35:14 p_l no hunchentoot support? 23:35:42 LiamH: If I have something reasonable I'll put it up somewhere and notify you. 23:36:37 LiamH pasted "Forward transforms for Sikander" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89661 23:36:42 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:36:53 Guthur: Regarding Hunchentoot, I was thinking of making something like Rack, just for CL, and port whatever code I'd end using to it 23:37:20 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:37:20 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:37:24 p_l: Rack? 23:37:40 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 23:37:41 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 23:38:07 serichsen: It's a common API in Ruby to interact with webserver (from the app side), so if you used Rack for HTTP support, you can easily run it with any Rack-compatible server 23:38:36 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-14318.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:38:37 Sikander: I don't think there's anything to be done to simplify the interfaces that make the workspaces and wavetables, because they only take n as an argument. Instead, the default key value on the transform function(s) is the way to do it. 23:39:23 serichsen: This way, you could write your app/framework once, and then have it running under hunchentoot, FastCGI, teepeedee2 or whatever 23:39:29 LiamH: That's what I figured, so that's what I did. 23:39:49 LiamH: It looks good. 23:39:56 serichsen: Rack actually includes a whole "stack", so you can put various modules for various parts of request handling 23:39:59 LiamH: Lemme verify the expansion 23:40:09 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:40:48 LiamH annotated #89661 "definition of power-of-2-p" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89661#1 23:41:00 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 23:41:59 -!- scallop [n=scallop@mcn-ud07181.miyazaki-catv.ne.jp] has left #lisp 23:42:26 LiamH: I found that every time I git pull, I need to remove the fasls, or compilation fails. Do you have that problem as well? 23:43:25 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C899.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 23:43:36 :element-types :float-complex 23:43:41 :documentation 23:43:42 "Forward FFT for a real vector") 23:43:49 srsly? 23:43:50 Sikander: Well, you're the first non-me contributor, so I haven't done that many pulls. I guess I'm not too careful about getting dependencies right in the asdf file. I have a little shell script that deletes all my fasls, which I use whenever I test. 23:44:08 LiamH: Ah, ok 23:44:24 LiamH: Interestingly, compilation of gsll fails now. Wait a sec. 23:44:29 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:44:29 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:44:31 rahul: yeah, docs need fixing; I was focusing more on functionality for now. 23:44:36 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 23:44:37 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 23:44:41 heh 23:44:53 there are lies, damned lies, and then there's documentation 23:45:11 ... Hey, that reminds me. Is there any sensible way to accurately represent irrational numbers in a computer program? 23:45:21 rahul: I do make an effort to get the documentation right before merging into master. Usually. 23:45:28 (arbitrary irrational numbers, at that.) 23:45:39 ok, so the stuff that you pushed doesn't compile for me: error in macro expansion of (DEFMFUN FORWARD-FOURIER-TRANSFORM-NONRADIX2... 23:45:47 nyef: As some kind of lazy series maybe? 23:45:50 nyef: sure 23:46:15 yeah, express it as a formula for the taylor expansion 23:46:20 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@CPE0023cdd7a4b1-CM001cea87a35c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:46:36 if there's no taylor expansion, it's probably uncomputable, right? 23:46:37 LiamH: I have no idea. A lazy series seems odd to me for representing a number. 23:46:56 mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6C899.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:59 nyef: the series would specifically be the taylor expansion 23:47:01 LiamH: ok, so the stuff that you pushed doesn't compile for me: error in macro expansion of (DEFMFUN FORWARD-FOURIER-TRANSFORM-NONRADIX2... 23:47:13 rahul: Okay, thanks. That gives me a direction in which to look. 23:47:36 Sikander: what is the error exactly? append to the paste if it's long. It expand for me. 23:48:00 nyef: there are probably more efficient alternatives for simply encoding roots 23:48:24 nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 23:48:28 but the series approach generalizes to trig and hyperbolic functions 23:48:54 LiamH annotated #89661 "How it expands for me" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89661#2 23:49:00 nyef: continued fractions, usually, no? 23:49:44 pkhuong: Aren't those fractions with a repeating decimal expansion typically rationals? 23:50:21 Sikander annotated #89661 "gsll fast-fourier-transform branch compilation errors for LiamH" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89661#3 23:50:51 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:50:51 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:50:58 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 23:50:59 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 23:51:11 nyef: yes, they are 23:51:38 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@CPE0023cdd7a4b1-CM001cea87a35c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:51:59 nyef: but continued fractions are of the form #1=(/ a (+ b #1#)) usually 23:51:59 -!- nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:52:31 nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 23:52:37 they continue via nesting, not repeating 23:52:41 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-11-61.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 23:53:01 pkhuong: but how would you easily do math with such fractions? 23:53:06 LiamH annotated #89661 "Try again..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89661#4 23:53:35 Do you mind if I try to figure that out later? I'm finding it rather impenetrable at this point. 23:53:43 rahul: see HAKMEM, or some real real implementation 23:55:19 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-60-82.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 23:55:28 Sikander: The version you got of the macro was before I made a fix; try the one in the most recent paste and see how it expands for you. 23:55:48 LiamH: This means that the current branch is broken 23:56:13 Sikander: ? No, I've not checked it in. 23:56:35 Sikander: or did I? 23:57:05 LiamH: Yes, the broken stuff is checked in 23:57:10 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:57:36 Ok, well what about the recent paste? Does that look OK? 23:57:44 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:57:45 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:57:54 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 23:57:57 nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 23:58:03 blackwolf [n=blackwol@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:03 -!- demmel [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-095-016.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:58:12 C-k and C-j are awfully close to each other. 23:58:14 -!- nha [n=prefect@31-174.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit ["Where satan goes, I follow. But only for the free T-shirts."] 23:59:01 good night 23:59:09 -!- nipra [n=nipra@117.195.96.55] has quit [Success] 23:59:14 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d066aa2.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["good fight"] 23:59:14 LiamH: Yes. 23:59:25 LiamH: You might want to remove stride, though 23:59:43 LiamH: Since you'd have to divide the size by the stride 23:59:55 Or add it 23:59:56 LiamH: I think