00:00:44 saikat_ [n=saikat@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 00:01:47 -!- sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:01:51 -!- maskd [n=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:02:03 Fare [n=Fare@128.30.7.73] has joined #lisp 00:03:08 sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 00:03:30 maskd [n=maskd@2001:470:1:41:a800:ff:fe59:ad66] has joined #lisp 00:03:53 *sykopomp* is just about done preparing for tomorrow's talk. 00:04:18 cool 00:04:37 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@90.149.103.151] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:04:41 heh. Reviewing an 80-page-long PDF with the slides now :\ 00:04:48 80? 00:04:50 shit 00:04:56 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 00:05:03 -!- lnostdal_ is now known as lnostdal 00:05:05 well, because every bullet point creates a new page. 00:05:20 it's really only like 30 slides. 00:05:47 ok 00:09:31 saikat__ [n=saikat@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 00:10:58 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 00:11:42 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust936.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1"] 00:15:35 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-129-134.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:16:38 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:52 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:17:12 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 00:18:21 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@99.13.242.166] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:19:04 -!- lighterthanair [n=lightert@38.105.245.18] has quit [] 00:20:03 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:20:38 ltriant [n=ltriant@59.167.195.42] has joined #lisp 00:21:06 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6E9A7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 00:21:11 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.240.223] has joined #lisp 00:21:34 -!- saikat__ [n=saikat@99.13.242.166] has quit [] 00:23:07 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:37 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:25:47 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 00:29:35 In SBCL, how do I get the IR1 representation of some snippet of code? Say (defun foo (x y) (format t "ex plus why: ~A ~A" x y)) => IR1 graph 00:31:21 If you want it for debugging, you can use (compile-file "file" :trace-file t) to get a text dump of what the compile is doing, including stuff from IR1. 00:31:23 Otherwise, I dunno. 00:32:06 gonzojive: you can insert a break in the compiler's, say sb-c::compile-component. Maybe after the call to ir1-phases. 00:32:30 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [] 00:32:33 IR1 really isn't very useful to try and decipher though. 00:33:09 -!- ruediger_ [n=ruediger@188-23-186-40.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:34:39 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.245.134] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:35:41 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 00:35:55 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Success] 00:36:00 i'm just trying to get some examples of an IR1 graph after reading through the definitions of all the IR1 node structs in node.lisp 00:36:08 -!- timor [n=martin@87.234.97.27] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:36:28 thanks pkhuong & foom 00:39:49 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-242.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:40:16 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:40:25 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-20.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:41:00 anyone know what an "XEP" is in the SBCL compiler? 00:41:21 external entry point. 00:42:00 OmniMancer2 [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-20.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:42:28 -!- eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:42:48 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:57 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-20.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:49:59 Instructions in the slime manual for setting up a remote lisp are to use LOAD, but I see a 'swank.asd' file, does it matter? 00:50:28 -!- troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:50:46 you can use asdf, if you want 00:51:23 pkhuong: for a function like (lambda (a b &key (x 1)) (+ a b x)), could there be multiple XEPs? say one XEP where the caller knows ahead of time the values being passed for all a, b, and x, and another XEP where the caller does not know anything about the values of a,b, and x (e.g. (apply [above lambda] (read))? 00:54:31 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:44 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-20.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:56:29 Can I connect to more than one remote lisp concurrently? 00:56:38 yes 00:57:13 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-20.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:57:15 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-73-155.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:57:41 -!- OmniMancer2 [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-20.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:58:04 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-20.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:58:21 2 00:59:00 Nice. If the lisp image is on my workstation and I'm on my laptop, can I edit files on my laptop and have them sent to the lisp image using C-c C-c or C-c C-k ? 00:59:24 -!- quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:59:34 quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has joined #lisp 00:59:40 through nfs 01:00:59 Hmm, the manual mentioned that and mentioned Tramp, but I'm still not clear. The file I'm editing on my laptop has to physically reside on the workstation, is that correct? 01:01:26 well, no, you can use nfs 01:03:07 I'm trying to to adsf-install metabang-bind but I get "component "metabang-bind" not found". I used pushnew on *central-registry* to add my systems directory and site and systems to *locations*. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. 01:03:20 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:04:28 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-20.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:04:55 tmh: nfs and pathnames translations 01:05:30 http://common-lisp.net/~sboukarev/slime/Setting-up-pathname-translations.html 01:06:04 but the other way around 01:07:00 <_3b> quidnunc: sounds like you may be confusing asdf and asdf-install 01:07:24 <_3b> quidnunc: paste what you did and what happened to lisppaste 01:12:12 gonzojive: in principle, I think so. That doesn't happen in practice. 01:14:31 Peaker [n=peaker@87.69.176.150] has joined #lisp 01:14:47 quidnunc pasted "metabang" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89076 01:15:19 ~ has no meaning in lisp 01:15:22 pkhuong: is there usually a single external entry point for every lambda in practice? The arguments to the lambda will be passed in and the entry point will parse and bind the values? 01:15:28 quidnunc annotated #89076 "output" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89076#1 01:16:36 gonzojive: no, only for functions that aren't only called inside the lexical scope of the definition. 01:16:57 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:18:43 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:18:54 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 01:21:00 pkhuong: okay. So for the lambda inside foo: (defun foo () (funcall (lambda (x y) (+ x y)) 1 2)), there would be no external entry point. But foo would have an external entry point. And for (defun bar () (lambda (a b) (* a b))), the lambda returned by bar would have an XEP because it could be called outside of foo? 01:21:21 rather, "it could be called outside of BAR" 01:22:37 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:22:39 -!- tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit ["Changing server"] 01:23:01 quidnunc: if you want #\~ in paths, install tilde (available, for example, in clbuild) 01:23:09 tessier [n=treed@216.105.40.113] has joined #lisp 01:23:31 does it work on clisp? 01:24:22 -!- Peaker [n=peaker@87.69.176.150] has left #lisp 01:24:23 stassats: possibly, haven't checked 01:25:03 nope, sbcl only 01:25:03 gonzojive: right. 01:25:21 -!- Adlai is now known as Adlai` 01:25:24 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 01:25:40 stassats: extending it to support other implementations wouldn't be hard, but since I use only SBCL and occasionally CCL, I don't care :P 01:26:08 but quidnunc uses clisp 01:27:31 stassats: kinda didn't notice, I got woken up by security guard two hours ago and I'm still fixing ruby libraries ^^; 01:27:51 p_l: I tried changing them to absolute paths to no avail 01:28:42 In clisp, #P"~/item" works as #P"HOME:item", but of course in a string the tilde stands for itself. 01:33:23 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 01:38:34 gonzojive: a big problem with caller-side optimisations is recompilation. When the definitions are local, that's not an issue. 01:39:09 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:39:50 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:39:56 pkhuong: why is that a problem? just have the compiler record assumptions and recompile when they fail 01:40:09 pkhuong: does SBCL do any recompilation like that? I was wondering if multithreading introduces a lot of hair when it comes to recompiliation 01:40:31 bgs100 [n=ian@h252.176.130.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:53 slava: right, but SBCL doesn't have anything like that, and concurrency makes things worse. 01:40:53 So, practically, a Problem. 01:41:52 recompiling functions when you have concurrency is already a Problem. :) 01:43:14 seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:39 -!- DekuNut [n=Mor@cpc2-hatf2-0-0-cust550.lutn.cable.ntl.com] has left #lisp 01:44:55 -!- iv_s [n=iv_s@92.124.58.47] has left #lisp 01:45:06 -!- Fare [n=Fare@128.30.7.73] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:45:40 Demosthenes [n=demo@67.111.42.174] has joined #lisp 01:49:29 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-lkksxlpjftypucxy] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:50:09 pkhuong: yeah, it would be cool if there was a lisp implementation with the same level of sophistication as java hotspot for threading and jit 01:52:07 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:54:07 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:56:54 -!- quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has quit ["perchance to sleep"] 01:58:00 dunno about threading, but so far HotSpot and LLVM seem to be the only systems that had gone so far with optimizations 01:58:36 hotspot can run your code, gc, and jit at the same time 01:59:11 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:02:05 can it make coffee? 02:02:28 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBAB5A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:09:19 -!- H4ns1 [n=Hans@87.187.186.230] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:09:24 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:10:33 stassats: its coffee tastes worse than Nescafe instant from one of their vending machines (and that's a damned insult) 02:11:25 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:11:34 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-69-181-124-97.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:11:51 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:12:12 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 02:16:30 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:55 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.228] has joined #lisp 02:19:52 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.228] has quit [Client Quit] 02:21:42 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:22:24 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 02:23:34 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:24:01 oudeis [n=oudeis@95.35.80.33] has joined #lisp 02:25:41 Tordek [n=tordek@host170.190-138-153.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 02:26:50 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:29:44 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-69.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:49 Evening, folks. 02:34:47 guten abend, 02:35:17 Hey gigamonkey 02:35:52 02:38:06 someone needs to make a greeting for "middle of the night" 02:38:51 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@host103.190-227-46.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:39:00 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.238] has joined #lisp 02:39:32 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:43:14 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:43:20 p_l: I think it's: "Whoa! You still up too?" 02:44:10 housel: I read "guten abend" as "Good ABEND" (as in ABnormal END). That's probably not right, huh. ;-) 02:45:08 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.136.215] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:48:25 Hmmm... seem to remember that being a Stan Kelly Bootle joke. 02:50:02 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:50:25 I seem to recall that as well 02:52:39 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:53:35 Devil's DP dictionary is buried somewhere in the house, but I'm not digging. 02:54:23 *caoliver* sticks fingers in ears to avoid taunts claiming he's lazy. 02:55:14 Greets GM 02:55:57 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:56:48 Yo caoliver (assuming GM is me and a really good chess player didn't just show up) 02:59:48 -!- thom_ [n=thom@173.51.164.80] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:00:44 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBA762.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 03:01:11 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:01:18 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has joined #lisp 03:01:28 (symbol-macrolet ((GM 'gigamonkey)) ...) 03:02:55 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-142.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:05:00 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:05:06 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 03:05:22 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has quit [Client Quit] 03:06:21 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:07:52 gary-s [n=gary@200.110.93.227] has joined #lisp 03:08:52 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has joined #lisp 03:11:58 ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-150-179.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:18 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.22.215] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:15:11 -!- gary-s [n=gary@200.110.93.227] has quit ["Xaric: If you have a better quit message then submit a patch!"] 03:15:38 gary-s [i=c86e5de3@gateway/web/freenode/x-cqbxulojhsfhrcax] has joined #lisp 03:15:57 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 03:16:52 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:17:45 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBAB5A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:18:59 -!- gary-s [i=c86e5de3@gateway/web/freenode/x-cqbxulojhsfhrcax] has quit [Client Quit] 03:20:13 which self-hosting lisp compiler has the cleanest code? 03:21:45 optikalmouse [n=user@bas1-toronto10-1279398185.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:22:00 do the FFI libs work with C++? 03:22:17 :S 03:22:24 minion: tell optikalmouse about verazzano 03:22:26 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``verazzano''. 03:22:30 minion: tell optikalmouse about verazanno 03:22:31 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``verazanno''. 03:22:36 minion: tell optikalmouse about verrazano 03:22:39 optikalmouse: look at verrazano: You said Verrazano? Well sorry, the actual name is fetter. http://www.cliki.net/verrazano 03:22:50 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:54 there we go 03:22:57 minion needs a spell checker or suggestor ;) 03:23:18 I'm not sure if it's under active development, though 03:23:22 gonzojive: define 'clean' and 'self hosting' 03:23:39 Adlai: http://common-lisp.net/project/fetter/ 03:23:52 I don't care as long as it kinda works Adlai ;) 03:24:02 gonzojive: only self-hosting lisp compiler I can think of is sbcl, but the code is not exactly elegant in places :) 03:24:30 slava: CCL, I believe. 03:25:40 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:27:09 slava: I should say a lisp compiler written mostly in lisp, and as far as clean I mean most easily understood/documented and most modular 03:27:17 Clozure has a kernel written in C. 03:27:28 gonzojive: CCL is pretty straightforward but it doesn't do optimization 03:28:06 slava: CCL has some optimization... 03:29:26 metasyntax: "kernel"? 03:30:49 pkhuong: http://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter3.4.html 03:31:24 Not that I know too much about it, I got curious this afternoon after getting the crazy idea into my head that I might be able to get it to run on OBSD. 03:31:38 metasyntax: ok, a runtime in C. That's to be expected. Much saner than trying to generate that code one's self. 03:32:36 QinGW3 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:33:16 pkhuong: Are you sure about that? 03:33:42 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:34:08 beach: about the sanity? Yes. 03:34:57 minion: memo for stassats : TRAMP seems to work well for remote slime connections, why did you not recommend it? 03:34:58 Remembered. I'll tell stassats when he/she/it next speaks. 03:37:31 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:37:39 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gcsygmnessayiwzk] has joined #lisp 03:41:00 Adlai: I was more interested in just knowing if I could hook C++ into CL 03:41:14 ;p 03:41:59 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 03:42:39 -!- QinGW3 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:44:00 pkhuong: It would be interesting to test that hypothesis by trying to write a runtime system in Lisp. 03:44:12 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-150-179.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:44:36 beach: wouldn't you run into bootstrapping issues? 03:45:13 beach: didn't some CMUCL branch emit linux syscalls directly at one point? 03:45:26 although I guess the MOP shows that we lispers are no strangers to bootstrapping... 03:45:44 pkhuong: I don't know. 03:46:09 Adlai: Possibly. 03:46:12 Adlai: not more so than with the usual scheme of a runtime for OS support in C and the Lisp library & compiler in lisp. 03:46:41 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@88.73.197.206] has joined #lisp 03:47:08 I imagine that building the system would generate some executable or .so or something like that. 03:47:59 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:48:47 Adlai: you could use any ANSI-compatible implementation to load your compiler/linker and generate an executable .so from it and image... 03:49:04 yeah, that's a possible approach. 03:49:23 the only problem I see would be getting proper syscall numbers 03:50:44 that's just a matter of "RTFM" 03:50:57 you'd need to include a groveller for the system you wanted to use, or only call libraries that would then call syscalls 03:50:57 no it's not 03:51:00 Adlai: it's not 03:51:13 syscall numbers are different per architecture, even if you only want to support linux 03:51:34 right, so you figure out what they are for each architecture 03:51:44 a groveller is a better approach, though. 03:51:45 plus, some syscalls don't actually have the documented API, on some architectures you need to use the libc wrapper 03:51:56 why would you want to emit syscalls directly? 03:51:59 foom: that's afaik actually mostly a linux issue - I recall someone stating that *BSD (i think it was Open or Net) standardised all non-architecture specific syscalls 03:51:59 there's no reason not to use libc 03:52:40 p_l: probably. *BSDers generally recompile the whole world on each revision so who cares if you break userspace every once in a while with syscall-renumberings. :) 03:53:01 foom: they've got support for multiple syscall namespaces :P 03:53:32 foom, no, we don't. 03:54:15 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@88.73.197.21] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:54:23 foom, FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD all have ABI guarantees. 03:54:55 foom, (this is one of the popular reasons why people adopt *BSD, in fact) 03:54:56 yeah, and there's a way to change the ABI without breaking old code 03:55:29 ABI is much more than system call semantics, though. 03:55:31 envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 03:55:44 p_l, FreeBSD supports multiple system call namespaces through the image activation framework. 03:55:46 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:05 stoop: really? I thought ABI changed on major releases. 03:56:39 foom, on "major" releases, yes (for example, 7.X -> 8.X) but backwards compatibility is provided. 03:56:39 stoop: I don't know about details for FreeBSD, but I recall that NetBSD simply stored an index to syscall namespace in process data 03:56:48 foom, I am talking about FreeBSD, in specific, right now. 03:57:01 p_l, Linux should support this too. 03:57:06 afaik the changes are mainly in libraries and changes to syscalls are avoided 03:57:35 Well, Linux doesn't generally break the kernel ABI at all... 03:57:49 stoop: dunno, I recall 2.2 having iBCS but now such functionality only seems to be available on certain architectures 03:57:49 RustyWheeler [n=kliese@campsis.eait.uq.edu.au] has joined #lisp 03:57:52 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 03:57:53 Linux is much less stable in ABI than the BSDs, foom. 03:58:03 foom: because there's no ABI 03:58:05 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:58:12 p_l: ...? 03:58:14 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:29 foom: Linux Kernel has no official ABI 03:58:56 foom: the interface is what kernel headers for that version state 03:59:35 stoop: I'm glad to hear it. 03:59:43 userspace changes rarely enough, fortunately, and care is taken to avoid too big breakings 04:00:01 stoop: I missed the "backwards compatibility layer" part, and only saw the "ABI can break on major versions" part. 04:00:19 p_l: kernel->userspace ABI, is what we're talking of here. 04:00:35 foom, there are no formal guarantees. 04:00:36 foom, (in Linux) 04:01:27 foom: the guarantee is usually "we won't reallocate previously used syscall number" 04:01:45 Question completely out of the blue: does anyone have a clue how the Symbolics probate debacle is going? 04:01:56 In Linux, changes that break userspace ABIs without a period of deprecation are not usually acceptable. 04:02:12 foom: some abi compatibility is done through hooks (kernel dumps an extra library that takes care of it) 04:02:38 Well, vsyscall is not so much a library. 04:02:48 vsyscall is part of the ABI 04:03:10 the things that vsyscall does behind the scenes are not. 04:03:11 stoop: I meant that vdso is dropped into the process so it looks like library 04:03:21 -!- optikalmouse [n=user@bas1-toronto10-1279398185.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 04:03:29 p_l, ah. 04:03:43 foom, where is this ABI policy Linux has? 04:04:00 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:04:02 dynamic linking is ... interesting. 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[n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:01:26 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:04:18 -!- envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:08:06 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229112201.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:08:17 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-69.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:15:13 -!- coyo [n=alex@99.6.151.42] has quit ["May the Coyoes cook you some hot chili some day!"] 06:18:44 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@59.167.195.42] has quit ["leaving"] 06:18:56 aigon [n=ojof@92.82.73.194] has joined #lisp 06:19:16 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:22:23 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:22:46 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:46 when SBCL tells me it's deleting unreachable code, how can I tell what the unreachable code is? 06:26:53 It's usually highlighted, at least in slime. 06:27:04 Underlined, rather 06:27:09 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-217.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 06:27:09 the underline from SLIME is just on a LET form 06:27:25 there's a medium-sized cond inside there, so one of the clauses is probably getting deleted 06:27:47 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-114.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:28:22 -!- ramus`_ [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-148-10.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:30:41 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 06:31:44 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.208] has joined #lisp 06:32:08 I just started reading comp.lang.lisp. It's too bad there are all those advertisements being posted; when did that start? 06:32:37 It's been going on for some time. Just use a decent NNTP server that filters it. 06:33:09 Oh, I was browsing using Google lists, I see. 06:33:49 My ISP's NNTP servers seem to filter out the non-spam 06:34:13 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@92.195.19.62] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:34:23 In fairness, I have trouble telling the difference at times. 06:34:25 :-) 06:36:29 I'm actually not sure where to get started with reading Usenet. I have a Mac; any suggestions regarding what software and server I should use? 06:38:39 I use thunderbird and eternal september server -> http://www.eternal-september.org/ 06:39:24 tmh: thanks! 06:39:29 Seems to work fine. I'm sure there is some emacs news reader that would be spiffy, but I like having my news on the same platform as my mail. 06:39:59 yeah maybe I should just learn to do it in emacs ;) 06:40:02 tmh: then you should have used Gnus from the very start ;) 06:40:46 jdz: I may still switch. I've thought about putting the effort into migrating everything to emacs. 06:41:44 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-243.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 06:42:06 http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs-en/CategoryGnus 06:43:21 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:43:36 thanks for the help, I am off to bed now. 06:43:41 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:44:04 serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06d61e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:09 good morning 06:44:09 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 06:44:12 Good morning 06:44:19 bonjour 06:46:05 Greetings. 06:46:46 |coyoes| [n=alex@99.6.151.42] has joined #lisp 06:47:57 #apple and #osx are --> that wayish 06:48:24 jdz: The wayish for what? 06:49:09 ok, is "thatish way" correct, then? 06:49:59 jdz: I wasn't trying to correct you, just wondered what you meant. 06:50:23 i mean, you must imagine me waving the hand in a bit circular motion 06:50:43 i suspected not everyone will get my reference to "bonjour" 06:51:16 Ah, nope, totally missed it. My wife has the Mac laptop and I rarely use it. 06:52:43 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:52:48 i said that instead of usual reply to localised greetings, which in my native language would not be interesting to any other member of this channel 06:53:05 -!- elurin``` [n=user@88.254.98.158] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:56:52 I am not sure if LetOverLambda is serious or a joke 06:57:36 I'm pretty sure its serious 06:57:45 fusss: oh, it's definitely a joke, but I'm not sure if the author gets it. 06:58:05 jdz: funny thing that my uni's computing society just discussed how to get banned from apple store through pranks... 06:58:05 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 06:59:00 *p_l* has to check native efi booting for win7 and prepare images :> *cackles* 06:59:44 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:59:58 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-243.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:00:00 win7 has native efi booting? 07:00:36 I think a book like LOL encourages more Lisp "fans" to run around internet fora and repeat legends about a super-intelligent and very difficult lisp (lisp fans != lisp programmers, btw.) 07:00:48 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:00:59 fusss: such people exist? 07:01:01 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gijyfvbtnjibulsb] has left #lisp 07:01:14 fusss: maybe you should write your own book then, about down-to-earth lisp programming 07:01:35 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bgsuwumjmllqlogh] has joined #lisp 07:01:45 yes, uninformed groupies who think Lisp is some kind of intellectual nirvana; the language god used to speak to aristotle in his jammies 07:02:06 jdz: NT5.0 supported EFI with proper hal.dll and drivers, NT6.x supports EFI on x86/x86-64 (and I know that Vista team used to have several macbooks running unofficial builds of Vista 32bit in pure-efi mode) 07:02:18 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:02:19 slava: yeah, well, i have code to write first 07:02:28 fusss: so are you a lisp fan or a lisp programmer? 07:02:32 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 07:02:46 splittist [n=David@85.4.220.156] has joined #lisp 07:02:48 morning 07:02:57 hello splittist 07:03:09 slava: mere user/programmer 07:03:24 I have a hard time beliving anybody like that could take themselves seriously 07:03:32 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:04:07 paulgraham 07:04:33 good morning 07:04:35 hello mvilleneuve 07:10:01 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 07:11:05 -!- RustyWheeler [n=kliese@campsis.eait.uq.edu.au] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:11:06 konr1 [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has joined #lisp 07:11:24 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:11:34 -!- l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 07:12:25 seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:45 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-18.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 07:13:16 free_thinker [n=willijar@134.151.144.246] has joined #lisp 07:14:13 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:14:53 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:16:36 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 07:18:33 -!- aigon [n=ojof@92.82.73.194] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:19:16 l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 07:20:00 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:23:07 -!- drag [n=user@82.113.106.144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:24:59 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:29:57 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:30:14 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:32:19 angerman [n=angerman@138.246.7.41] has joined #lisp 07:32:50 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 07:35:40 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:37:14 Ugh, I exhausted the heap and am being introduced to the LDB. 07:37:25 Congratulations! 07:38:55 levy [n=levy@89.223.197.213] has joined #lisp 07:39:04 I chose to q-u-i-t. I'm going to need to be more selective with the data I'm reading. 07:40:05 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:41:52 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-140-191-199.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 07:46:18 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-18.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 07:47:20 jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:47:39 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:50:00 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:50:02 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 07:50:43 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:50:53 -!- guaqua is now known as GUAQUA 07:51:03 -!- GUAQUA is now known as guaqua 07:51:49 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-217.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:52:40 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@90.149.108.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:55:36 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:56:08 manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6D4C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:56:29 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:56:32 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:00:04 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-20.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:03:28 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:56 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.208] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:03:56 -!- jdz_ is now known as jdz 08:04:45 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:04:54 shell-scripting, what a mine-field that is 08:05:19 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:06:05 I had i =0; and my counter was off by 2, 30 minutes of debugging went by for nothing 08:06:52 fusss: Your terminating condition was i = 0 ? 08:07:17 asksol [n=ask@212-181-96-82.customer.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:07:20 initialization 08:07:55 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 08:08:02 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-51-234.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:09:05 -!- H4ns1 is now known as h4ns 08:09:07 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:09:07 -!- h4ns is now known as H4ns 08:09:43 i have a directory with 19k files and all unix commands are too broken to list or navigate it any way. lisps are broken too, because it contains files names in unicode .. 08:10:02 so I am writing small one off scripts to explore what's out there and rename them in the dark 08:10:08 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:10:44 *fusss* did NOT choose to have 19k files in the file system; drakma went astray and scrapped government sites for 24 hours before i noticed 08:10:46 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:11:07 --no-dirs lol? 08:11:28 What about emacs, any useful functions there? 08:12:10 Jafet: drakma; my scrapper simulates a human user and even mimicks javascript execution 08:12:50 fusss: iolib FTW when it comes to weird characters in the file names 08:12:52 Just wondering what sort of situation leads to 19k files, fusss. Also, "scraper"? 08:13:36 many unix commands map pretty directly to syscalls though, so there might not be a huge difference between those two approaches 08:13:48 tmh: dunno, i solved it with the lousy shell-script; i stripped the file names and stored as metadata and renamed them all over a numerical sequence 0..19k; the metadata is indexed in a table with the corresponding file name as ID. 08:14:03 lichtblau: cheers! 08:14:53 fusss: Ah, are you really going to try to figure out what the files are? Seems like trying to drink water from a firehose. 08:15:47 ASau [n=user@77.246.231.43] has joined #lisp 08:15:49 tmh: i do that twice a week. i have the sales contacts for every airline on earth. every hotel chain. every government ministry. every outstanding bid/RFP/tender request in the middle-east, etc. 08:16:17 -!- levy [n=levy@89.223.197.213] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:16:29 fusss: Interesting. So you sell this data? 08:16:40 advertising: 50% text mining, statistics, machine learning and sexy algorithms. 50% sleaze. 08:17:08 Taking on Google by yourself? :-) 08:17:21 tmh: i am not selling it, but building a prospect list to be targeted by us for our advertising company 08:17:48 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:18:13 I just improved the read time on my data from 10 hours to 20-min by replacing READ with a floating point specific parser. Booya! 08:18:37 levy [n=levy@89.223.197.213] has joined #lisp 08:18:37 The parser still needs a little work, but it's good enough for this iteration of the analysis. 08:19:09 tmh: sounds like a good optimization :) 08:19:33 I think I'm starting to get the hang of this lisp thing. 08:20:10 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-58.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 08:21:23 tmh: great stuff! 08:21:56 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:22:03 (reading scrollback) if you will permit me a moment of pg fanboyism, the mainstream press seem to be agreeing with his 'microsoft is dead' now, a couple of years later 08:22:57 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:23:23 lukego: I don't know. I heard a report tonight talking about how MS was coming back with Bing and Win7 after the abysmal failure that was Vista. 08:23:26 lukego: his business intuition works, it's just his lisp style I object to (-: 08:23:49 lukego: a broken clock is right twice a day 08:23:51 tmh: "coming back with bing" is a hilarious concept 08:24:17 tmh: perhaps I exaggerate :) 08:24:34 antifuchs: Not saying I concurred, just that the press I heard seemed pretty positive. 08:24:41 lukego: Wishful thinking? :-) 08:25:26 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:25:40 slava: ah but then how do you explain _a plan for spam_ - that was a real bullseye :) 08:25:58 -!- jyujin_ [n=jyujin@d221-90-121.commercial.cgocable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:26:17 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:26:18 lukego: apparently his essays are ok when written at the right time of day (-: 08:26:50 lukego: three times a day perhaps then :) 08:27:27 tmh: are you using ieee-floats? http://www.cliki.net/ieee-floats 08:27:47 fusss: No 08:28:13 play with and see how you like it better 08:28:15 if you have time 08:28:43 slava: ah daylight savings :) 08:29:12 fusss: Thanks, I'll look it over. 08:29:30 -!- levy [n=levy@89.223.197.213] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:29:49 -!- dmelani [n=dmelani@c83-253-52-86.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:30:12 levy [n=levy@89.223.197.213] has joined #lisp 08:30:19 borism [n=boris@195.50.199.134] has joined #lisp 08:30:24 QinGW3 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:30:32 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:30:33 hkBst [n=hkBst@37pc222.sshunet.nl] has joined #lisp 08:33:11 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:33:34 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:33:45 dmelani [n=dmelani@c83-253-52-86.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:34:50 tmh: I find Vista to be more a failure of not having guts to get rid of various bug-compatible stuff. Win7 does it right with the virtual machine, unfortunately I can't run it :/ 08:35:12 jyujin_ [n=jyujin@d221-90-121.commercial.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 08:36:41 p_l: can't run it? why? 08:36:54 *Ralith* is reasonably happy with 7 on his laptop 08:36:57 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:38:11 p_l: I've never used Vista. I have WinXP 32bit+Office running in VirtualBox for client support. I plan on running Win7 64bit in VirtualBox when Office2010 comes out, mainly for 64bit Excel to support clients. 08:38:31 besides games i can't see the worth of windows, and i don't game as much now so that is a mute point anyway 08:38:36 tmh: 64bit excel isn't compatible with 32bit excel? O.o 08:38:40 Ralith: my thinkpad doesn't have virtualization support and my nt6 machine requires microcode update, except I don't have said microcode nor a way to load it properly 08:38:48 Ralith: not if you want to load binary modules 08:39:08 oh, didn't know excel had that level of extensibility 08:39:12 Ralith: There isn't a 64bit Excel, not until 2010. 08:39:16 :P 08:39:20 won't be* 08:39:25 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219.89.105.20] has joined #lisp 08:39:36 p_l: huh, also didn't know that 7 *requires* hardware virtualization. 08:39:51 Ralith: it's required for that xp-mode 08:40:04 otherwise nt6.1 works fine :) 08:40:20 morning 08:40:28 (and damned fast - it installed faster than I managed to search for HCL...) 08:40:54 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6D4C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 08:41:00 Alright, that's enough for one day. I've been up almost 24 hours and don't have anything left. 08:41:07 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:41:11 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:42:49 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:45:54 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:46:25 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:47:25 I'm actually happier with win7 than I was with xp, which took me by surprise 08:47:25 it's less obtrusive. 08:49:24 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:49:29 nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:51 fusss: I hope you don't actually _scrap_ government websites :) 08:51:10 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:51:26 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:51:47 -!- QinGW3 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:51:57 does this throw an error for you? (sb-introspect:find-definition-sources-by-name 'common-lisp:structure-object :structure) 08:53:17 varjag [n=eugene@62.97.226.122] has joined #lisp 08:53:31 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:55:51 -!- angerman [n=angerman@138.246.7.41] has quit [] 08:56:20 <_3b> levy: The value 0 is not of type SB-C:DEFINITION-SOURCE-LOCATION. in 1.0.31.32 08:56:22 levy: yes 08:56:43 (1.0.31.1) 08:57:21 that sounds interesting 08:57:23 minion: logs 08:57:27 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 08:58:10 (sb-introspect:find-definition-sources-by-name 08:58:10 'common-lisp:structure-object :structure) 08:58:30 oops 08:59:35 tic [n=tic@83.218.67.122] has joined #lisp 09:00:38 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-127-225.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 09:01:51 -!- tic [n=tic@83.218.67.122] has quit [Client Quit] 09:02:08 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:03:34 I post a mail to sbcl-devel 09:04:52 levy: report it instead: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+filebug 09:06:46 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:08:57 too late... 09:10:12 sah0s [n=anto@254.134.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 09:10:22 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:11:02 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:11:04 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:11:55 what are my :direction arguments if I want to 1) read contents of a file. 2) process them. 3) write them back to the file overwriting the previous text. 09:11:58 :truncate? 09:12:09 :overwrite ..? 09:12:35 <_3b> :io ? 09:13:26 hi, ye must get this question a million times ... i'm trying to learn lisp by writing a tiny lisp interpreter ... in getting my head around eval i read in the r5rs paper that eval takes an 'external representation' but there seems to be no way to manipulate sequences of characters ... what 'function' turns a sequence of characters in an S expression? 09:13:35 :direction :io :if-exists :overwrite 09:13:43 -!- konr1 is now known as konr 09:13:50 <_3b> sah0s: READ ? 09:13:52 sah0s: that's the job of the parser 09:14:01 slava: thought so 09:14:13 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.115.68] has joined #lisp 09:14:40 but when discussing REPLs they never mention this conversion step so I think REPL is a bit ... 09:15:00 <_3b> REPL = READ Eval Print Loop 09:15:19 _3b: thanks, let me look up exactly what read does ... 09:15:43 Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:15:45 *boggle* 09:16:18 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:16:23 -!- udzinari [n=user@195.212.29.187] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:16:31 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:16:32 <_3b> sah0s: and the usual disclaimer, this channel is more about CL than scheme (which #scheme know about more than us), so terms may vary 09:18:09 levy: I'll try to track this down 09:18:16 _3b: sorry, i thought of going to #scheme but i'm just using r5rs as a reference, i'm really interested in lisp in general, (i have a common lisp interpreter installed) and i thought there'd be a greater depth of knowledge here (stroke ego !) 09:18:28 *tcr* reminds himself of the need to buy faster hardware 09:18:51 _3b: (read) converts strings to objects :) 09:19:11 _3b: i thought it 'read' a string from the console. me dumb 09:19:21 tcr, thanks 09:19:57 <_3b> sah0s: it might do that part to, depending on what it is using for input 09:20:01 <_3b> *too 09:24:44 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 09:25:01 sah0s how much have you implemented and what are you using to implement, curiosity... 09:25:22 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:26:09 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:27:03 Guthur: i'm doing it in c++. i'm doing a proof of concept in memory and then i'm going to do code gen in llvm. i've taken a toy lisp interpreter written in llvm as my base but it's much changed now. are you doing something similar? 09:28:00 sah0s nah bit hardcore for me hhh, just interested 09:28:48 Guthur: by 'in memory' i mean that i transform lisp s expr into a parse tree and just call simple built in c++ functions just to see that the simple hand parsing works 09:28:50 *_3b* wonders why people always want to implement lisps in non-lisp languages :) 09:29:07 _3b: how else would you do it? 09:29:14 _3b: I want to implement CL in CL, but it will take time :P 09:29:18 *_3b* implements lisp in lisp 09:29:34 Ah, a theoretician. 09:29:39 _3b: there's no lisp llvm interface i think. correct me if i'm wrong 09:30:01 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:30:04 Jafet: nope, not theoretically - use clisp for bootstrap 09:30:30 *_3b* would probably rather build a llvm ffi than use c++ 09:30:39 don't GCs need to be written in a system language?... 09:30:42 <_3b> (assuming llvm isn't too infected with c+= to bind) 09:30:43 sah0s: you can easily set up a c-like language in lisp that emits C code for the tiny core that needs to interface with the host OS... then build the rest in lisp 09:30:45 _3b: once i have eval i can bootstrap and write the rest in itself, isn't that the beauty of lisp? :) 09:30:48 *sykopomp* is clueless about this. 09:30:53 sykopomp: not neccessarily 09:31:06 C++ is a fine language for implementation of other languages 09:31:17 there's no better choice 09:31:24 sykopomp: not really... My idea is to generate GC routines using CL code 09:31:34 <_3b> sah0s: right, but i'd still rather just bootstrap from a full lisp 09:31:43 Lisp in VHDL, go 09:31:43 p_l: how is that an improvement over writing a GC in C++? 09:31:48 slava: lisp is pretty good for implementing other languages, but for a different reason ;) 09:31:56 (same goes for factor) 09:31:57 sykopomp: I'm talking about full-fledged languages, not DSLs 09:32:01 _3b: and to be honest, i don't have the lisp chops yet to tackle something like that but i do know C and C++ so ... 09:32:02 <_3b> sykopomp: i cheat and target a VM with GC :p 09:32:03 sykopomp: language runtimes, let's say 09:32:11 slava: Smalltalk isn't a DSL 09:32:13 sykopomp: not necessarily, bit still a good idea (because debuggers for system languages usually are already written by Other People) 09:32:19 _3b: hax :P 09:32:27 sykopomp: lisp already provides the runtime, that's why its easy to run languages on top 09:32:45 C++ is pretty nice for implementing GCs and such 09:32:48 _3b: ffi? 09:32:55 you can do things like writing a partial evaluator (which is basically a highly customizable smart interpreter), then write your VM in lisp working on a big byte-array representing the computer memory using a few predefined accessors, then partial eval stuff until the result only contains memory access primitives... in theory, though... :) 09:33:10 slava: right. 09:33:17 <_3b> sah0s: 'Foreign Function Interface' generic term for calling code written in other languages 09:34:01 heh, last and butlast take an optional argument 09:34:14 _3b: interesting, of course it would have this facility 09:34:21 <_3b> sah0s: generally means calling C from some higher level languages like lisp, since higher level languages tend to not like calling eachother unless they share a runtime 09:34:33 my idea was that if I want a compiler, I'll need an assembler anyway, so make a DSL and implement base routines in it :) 09:34:43 _3b: i never thought about doing it that way 09:34:49 a compiler is a different set of cocerns from the language runtime though 09:34:52 _3b: version 2, heh 09:34:53 self-hosting compilers are nice 09:34:54 + image dumper capable of manipulating executables properly for that 09:35:00 self hosting runtimes, not so much 09:36:20 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:20 *_3b* goes back to trying to figure out where to wedge lambda list parsing into my compiler 09:36:25 slava: if the runtime is bootstappable using any ANSI CL implementation, then it isn't so bad, right? :) 09:36:31 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:36:40 _3b: sounds like a poor separation of concerns 09:36:49 the input to the compiler should be completely desugared 09:36:55 *sykopomp* wonders how many other languages call them "lambda-lists". 09:36:55 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-58.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 09:36:58 p_l: how will you debug it? 09:37:16 thinking very hard? 09:37:40 I'm trying to figure out a problem in signal handling this way right now, its not working too well 09:37:41 offerings to the gods usually helps with that, in my experience, but ymmv 09:37:43 -!- levy [n=levy@89.223.197.213] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:37:59 slava: symbol map + old style debugging with simple platform debugger :) 09:38:00 I should upgrade to os x 10.6 to get the new gdb that doesn't die when your app receives a signal 09:38:16 sykopomp: You can have only one first-son. 09:38:19 <_3b> slava: yeah, i'm new at the whole compiler thing, it will need cleaned up once i have some idea what i'm doing :) 09:38:22 p_l: I like C++ because it offers sufficient abstractions for systems-level programming and has good tooling 09:38:34 levy [n=levy@89.223.197.213] has joined #lisp 09:38:52 templates are great for generating specialized code paths in GC 09:39:00 tcr: depending on when the sacrifice happens, you can hit that "grey area" of pregnancy where you can argue either way. 09:39:11 the trick is exploiting that properly, of course. 09:39:36 *p_l* is terrified by templates ever since if(!some_pointer) ended with a screenful of template errors 09:39:51 aigon [n=ojof@92.82.64.102] has joined #lisp 09:39:58 yeah, the compile errors can be a bit annoying 09:40:04 its a really nice language featuer though 09:40:16 slava: re debugging: if it's worth writing it in lisp, then writing the necessary debugging tools should not change the picture much 09:40:30 but most of the time the compile errors, while verbose, are actually parsable into finding what exactly went wrong 09:40:50 attila_lendvai: but it won't be lisp, it will be a systems dialect of lisp; you can't debug a GC from inside a running image 09:40:51 re templates as nice feature: ...some people disagree, though... 09:40:56 Phoodus: I was led somewhere deep into GCC C++ runtime then I gave up 09:40:59 sure, and those people are inexperienced/wrong 09:41:23 -!- aigon [n=ojof@92.82.64.102] has quit [Client Quit] 09:41:24 QinGW3 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:41:40 It sounds like the same argumentation as people do against macros 09:41:42 dismissing C++ as a bad language because of one bad experience is like people who dismiss lisp because of too many parentheses 09:41:47 both are beautiful languages 09:41:52 lisp macros get you just as strange of errors & runtime wrongification in the hands of beginners, too 09:41:58 slava: heh... 5 years ago i would call you for a fight on who knows more about C++ templates... by today i luckily purged that knowledge... :) 09:42:01 <_3b> can i dismiss it from many bad experiences? :) 09:42:15 attila_lendvai: implementations are better now than 5 years ago 09:42:48 *_3b* did like that inline xml with c++ templates thing though, looked like as much fun as the boost bnf parser generator thing 09:43:36 slava: so what? did it change anything on the fact that your macro language is different from the language it generates, and it's a turing complete rule matching engine with really weird syntax and hard to follow semantics? 09:44:00 _3b: Boost::Spirit 09:44:12 <_3b> sah0s: yeah, that one 09:44:20 attila_lendvai: you're not supposed to use it as a full-fledged macro language 09:44:58 <_3b> (the xml thing being http://bitbucket.org/edd/xsmell/src/tip/readme.txt ) 09:45:05 slava: I can understand that there are people who enjoy C++ etc. Their choice. I like the simplicity of C and other languages ;-) 09:45:22 p_l: I rewrote my VM from C to C++ because C was too much of a pain 09:46:09 slava: ah, right. so, add a turing complete funny language which is only available to run stuff at compile time, and then tell the crowd not to misuse it because it'll make things unreadable, unparsable, and the compilers to disagree on the result... 09:46:58 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:47:04 attila_lendvai: *shrug* it works well for what I use it for 09:47:05 ymmv 09:47:25 -!- levy [n=levy@89.223.197.213] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:48:14 you can make similar claims about any language implementation 09:48:24 well, i don't want to convince people these days... just pointing out that i had my period in my life when i thought that wow, templates are cool. but later on my perspective on languages widened and i reevaluated my opinion, quite a lot. 09:48:37 levy [n=levy@89.223.197.213] has joined #lisp 09:48:59 attila_lendvai: I had a similar experience with lisp :) 09:49:01 Oh, I thought you were talking about macros there 09:49:50 Jafet: you don't want to get me started on #define... :) 09:50:44 Hey, C macros are at least pspace, do not mock them 09:51:41 CPP is a pure functional language ;-) 09:52:02 Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has joined #lisp 09:52:18 Templates get much more fun with the new half-reimplementations of type classes 09:52:31 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 09:52:34 concepts? they took that out of C++0x 09:52:39 Woo, fuck compiler writers 09:53:56 They decided that concepts were too simple and would provoke bikeshedding. They introduced sfinae-expressions instead. 09:54:09 This keeps the guru hierarchy stable. 09:55:30 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:57:09 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:58:24 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:58:44 i doubt if anyone will be willing to learn c++0x, let alone able 09:59:16 that's a silly thing to say; thousands of professional programmers are going to be using it, and in fact many already are using a subset (gcc 4.x and visual studio 2008 implement parts of tr1) 10:00:01 you must have misunderstood me. people who make a living of coding in c++ will surely need to learn it 10:00:03 *attila_lendvai* let's the C++ discussion die... 10:00:22 -!- levy [n=levy@89.223.197.213] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:00:26