00:00:14 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:01:59 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.253.49] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:02:01 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:02:54 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h52n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:05:14 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:08:18 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:10 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 00:10:45 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:11:05 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 00:12:16 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:13:54 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.251.171] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:21:19 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:22:20 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:46 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:47 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:26:14 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:28:37 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6FCF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 00:30:33 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.143] has joined #lisp 00:31:27 -!- mnl_ [n=mnl@pD9E6FCF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:32:11 -!- phf [n=user@c-76-124-103-85.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 00:32:26 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-33-92-164.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:14 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:35:52 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:35:52 -!- xinming__ [n=hyy@218.73.130.25] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:38:20 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:38:48 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:39:24 -!- jahmarley [n=kenan@88.238.198.77] has left #lisp 00:39:37 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:40:46 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 00:43:28 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 00:44:31 jahmarley [n=kenan@88.238.198.77] has joined #lisp 00:48:47 how is a list of lists represented internally? like the first cell of the cons is a pointer to the first element of the inner list and the other is a pointer to the following element (which is an inner list) of the outer list? 00:49:27 jahmarley: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cons_cell 00:49:33 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-82-22.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:49:58 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:50:14 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 00:54:37 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-orwdmfjlueqdkxfo] has left #lisp 00:54:52 if only claar were around. 00:54:58 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:55:30 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:56:43 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-134-50.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:56:56 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:57:36 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:58:09 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:58:13 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 00:58:21 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 00:58:53 so how is single objects represented? again in a cons cell in which the second pair is nil? 00:59:20 i guess this is most likely the presentation of a single object in a list like (345). 00:59:37 jahmarley: did you read? 00:59:40 jahmarley: lists are just chained cons cells, the CAR points to the actual element, and the CDR points to the rest of the list. If the CDR is NIL, then the list is over. 00:59:43 if not, go do that. 00:59:59 i did 01:00:05 okay 01:00:25 [345][*]->NIL 01:00:27 but i'm asking something else 01:01:05 single objects aren't necessarily pointed to by cons cells. 01:02:07 i see, thanks. 01:02:08 What do you mean by single objects? There's many other data types than cons cells in CL. 01:02:53 i mean something like 'cake 01:02:59 that's a symbol 01:02:59 'cake is a symbol 01:03:59 if you want to check whether x is a cons cell, just check (cdr x) 01:04:11 if x is a cons, you'll get its cdr. If x isn't a cons, you'll get an error. 01:04:18 (cdr 'cake) => ERROR 01:04:48 Um, why not use consp? 01:04:54 or just use consp 01:05:07 also cdr sometimes works on symbols 01:05:12 so be careful 01:05:19 S11001001: when? 01:05:21 if you want to know what makes up a symbol: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_symbol.htm It's basically a more complex data structure than one usually thinks (made of a name(string), functional value, plist, package, value) 01:05:23 nil 01:05:32 ok, true 01:05:32 adlai: cdr is an operator on lists, not cons cells. 01:05:42 but nil is a cons too 01:05:49 no 01:05:50 No, it isn't. 01:05:57 nil is a list. 01:06:11 You might be interested in listp as well as consp. 01:11:01 jtshell [n=jtshell@d216-232-216-248.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:58 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-75-150.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:13:56 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:13:59 -!- futuranon [n=futurano@67-207-144-254.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit ["leaving"] 01:14:01 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:26 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:18:51 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:19:27 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 01:20:53 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp037.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:26:50 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-217.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:27:20 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has left #lisp 01:29:30 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 01:30:01 -!- alec [n=alec@pool-96-237-13-64.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:34:35 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:39:16 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:43:06 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:43:34 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 01:48:04 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:58:45 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:47 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:08:11 ASau [n=user@85.141.170.43] has joined #lisp 02:14:20 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:33 BrianRice [n=briantri@65-124-255-226.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:37 redblue [i=star@ppp029.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:25:01 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:29:53 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:31:04 -!- ASau [n=user@85.141.170.43] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:31:23 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 02:33:17 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 02:33:28 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 02:36:32 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.128.150.14] has joined #lisp 02:39:49 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 02:40:25 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:41:36 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 02:42:49 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 02:43:39 chavo_ [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:21 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:44 nathan [n=user@cpe-74-71-11-230.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:47:11 -!- nathan is now known as Guest98531 02:47:29 -!- jahmarley [n=kenan@88.238.198.77] has left #lisp 02:51:10 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:10 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:51:30 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 02:54:04 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-223-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:28 konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has joined #lisp 02:56:33 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:59:37 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-60.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:00:27 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:00:30 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:00:37 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 03:02:36 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.128.150.14] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:02:40 dialtone [n=dialtone@98.210.155.172] has joined #lisp 03:11:39 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-174-63.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 03:11:50 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-174-63.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has left #lisp 03:16:52 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:17:25 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 03:17:27 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:19:44 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 03:20:07 |stern| [n=seelenqu@tmo-100-84.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 03:20:17 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@65-124-255-226.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit [] 03:20:17 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:21:12 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 03:22:42 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 03:25:01 c|mell [n=cmell@221.147.17.194] has joined #lisp 03:25:21 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has joined #lisp 03:28:00 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.19.207] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:28:33 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:30:58 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:02 hi 03:31:52 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:32:21 -!- ropert [n=user@CPE00222d12ee72-CM00222d12ee6e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:33:26 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:33:27 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 03:33:49 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 03:34:14 would anyone like to see the pilot episode of a documentary show that may involve lisp in future episodes. 03:35:29 http://www.archive.org/details/TheGenesisReportEpisode1 03:36:50 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:56 *Guest98531* map* 03:38:47 dto: how will it involve Lisp 03:38:47 ? 03:38:48 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-100-84.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:39:04 well this episode involves cellular automata, in the 2nd half of the show 03:39:06 where is maptree? 03:39:17 -!- mjonsson [n=mjonsson@cpe-74-68-112-229.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:39:45 Guest98531: that's not a standard function. 03:39:51 also i was thinking of using some lisp vector graphics package or something, to generate diagrams and stuff for the show. 03:40:04 so that the show could involve lisp writing 03:40:08 Partly because there are different ways of interpreting a bunch of cons cells as a tree. 03:41:26 pkhuong: thanks for the info.:) 03:41:26 huangjs, memo from pkhuong: CMUCL and SBCL target a decent number of architectures; most of the code is shared (most of the compiler's architecture specific code can be found in src/compiler/$ARCH, and are mostly VOP definitions). The register allocator is based on a greedy colouring algorithm. 03:49:25 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:50:48 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:57:50 jahmarley [n=kenan@88.238.198.77] has joined #lisp 03:59:58 in paip it says that (nconc x y) altering x by adding a pointer to y at the end of x, but if this is exactly the case, shouldn't the value of x chance when i chance the value of y? 03:59:58 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:01:23 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:02:23 I guess Norvig means it appends x with y and binds x to the resulting list. 04:02:25 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 04:04:55 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-75-150.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 04:08:25 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:50 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-75-150.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:13:04 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.60.86] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:13:12 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.66.81] has joined #lisp 04:15:29 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:47 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:17:29 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:17:30 in paip it says that (nconc x y) altering x by adding a pointer to y at the end of x, but if this is exactly the case, shouldn't the value of x chance when i chance the value of y? I guess Norvig means it appends x with y and binds x to the resulting list. 04:17:56 jahmarley: clhs nconc 04:18:03 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 04:19:00 erm 04:19:02 clhs nconc 04:19:02 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_nconc.htm 04:20:02 jahmarley: it's like append, but it destructively modifies the lists involved. 04:20:48 jahmarley: what's your question? 04:21:21 The value of x *will* change (after the nconc) if you change the (contents of) y. 04:21:21 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:21:39 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 04:22:06 (let ((x (list 1 2 3)) (y (list 4 5 6))) (nconc x y) (print x) (setf (car y) 40) (print x)) 04:22:18 but i tried it in allegro cl, and changes in the y after nconc didn't effect the value of x 04:22:34 However, (let ((x (list 1 2 3)) (y (list 4 5 6))) (nconc x y) (print x) (setf y (list 9 8 7)) (print x)) 04:22:42 jahmarley: paste it. 04:22:42 crod [n=cmell@221.147.19.228] has joined #lisp 04:24:17 The first code above should print (1 2 3 4 5 6) and then (1 2 3 40 5 6) 04:24:24 The second one print (1 2 3 4 5 6) twice. 04:24:31 prints. 04:25:39 cadabra [n=cadabra@c-76-23-34-5.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:44 jahmarley pasted "nconc?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88319 04:27:26 allegro cl 8.1 free express edition on linux 04:27:53 jahmarley: that's the expected behavior, yes. 04:28:01 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@221.147.17.194] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:29:33 but shouldn't the x change after changing y? 04:29:51 you were only using the binding of y at the time you called nconc. 04:30:09 changing the binding of y later won't affect it once nconc is already called. 04:31:16 (let ((x (list 1 2 3)) (y (list 4 5 6))) (nconc x y) (print x) (setf (car y) 40) (print x)) what is the difference in this one? 04:31:23 usually, when you use the destructive operators (like nconc) you want to actually capture the return value instead of relying on nconc changing the list bound to x, so (setf x (nconc x y)). 04:32:43 jahmarley: the issue there is shared structure -- you're actually altering the lists that x and y share, and thus affect x. In your example, you're creating a new list bound to y (the old list no longer being bound to y) 04:33:59 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-134-50.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:36:43 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host172.190-230-90.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:37:00 hmm, i think i understand now, thanks :) 04:38:18 Tordek [n=tordek@190.138.153.100] has joined #lisp 04:43:38 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313886.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 04:45:28 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:45:41 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 04:45:45 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 04:49:06 -!- crod [n=cmell@221.147.19.228] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:54:35 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:55:13 -!- Vonunov [i=jack@anapnea.net] has quit ["brblol"] 04:55:20 impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313886.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 05:02:05 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:02:22 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:03:06 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:03:58 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:05:32 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:05:58 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:06:16 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:25 seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:54 -!- ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.93.230] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:14:22 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:14:35 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 05:15:41 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-211-174.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:18 -!- sykopomp [n=root@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:18:29 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 05:18:43 *wgl* Iron lung is working again 05:18:45 yo wgl 05:18:58 Yo gigamonkey. How goes? 05:19:16 Goodish. Never write a book for Apress, however, is my advice. 05:19:26 oh? 05:19:26 lsk_ [n=HJS@122.116.5.215] has joined #lisp 05:19:26 Oh? 05:19:31 hah! 05:20:22 gigamonkey, why's that? :-/ 05:20:31 They've just been annoying me too much. And their failure to pay me, on my latest royalty check, some money they owe me because of a screw up on their part, has pushed me over the edge. 05:20:45 Good grief. 05:21:11 I probably shouldn't bad mouth them too much but if you know someone who's seriously considering writing a tech book, I'd be happy to talk to them. 05:21:40 Bummer. 05:22:10 Want me to call them? 05:22:16 Heh. 05:22:35 do you guys too read a bunch of books at the same time? 05:22:39 You and Big Tony? ;-) 05:23:02 tic: you mean being in the middle of a bunch of books at once. 05:23:02 Well, my wife grew up in bridgeport, part of chicago. 05:23:15 Or litereally reading multiple books at once? 05:23:22 gigamonkey, middle of a bunch of books. 05:23:25 tic: I have at least one book going in each room of the house. 05:23:36 I read somewhere that Thomas Jefferson invented the Lazy Susan so he could do the latter. 05:23:49 tic: yeah. 05:24:46 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313886.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 05:24:53 Right. Then I'm not alone with my ADHD-tendencies... I have a book on copyright, "Against intellectual monopoly", borrowed from a colleague. Which I /should/ finish, very interesting in theory. But I have so many other books I'd rather read. I don't like giving up on books... 05:25:49 No, i don't think you are. In fact, there are readings that transcend a move to a new house, and I think i have two or three books that are half read as a result. 05:25:54 Pirate it before returning 05:26:07 If a book sits around too long with a bookmark somewhere in the middle, I usually give it up and start over from the beginning if I decide I really want to read it. 05:26:25 That makes sense. 05:26:35 So is apress going to straighten this out? 05:26:35 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:26:43 I can lend (borrow? always them up) it indefinitely, I think, so it's the mental barrier here. I guess I should return it. 05:26:55 wgl: I assume so. I just sent them a rather cranky email. 05:27:04 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:27:18 APress is a fairly large company. They should know by now how to do business properly. 05:27:47 tic: you'd think so. 05:27:54 I can only imagine. 05:27:58 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-2-147.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:06 Of course they're part of Springer now so maybe they're *too* large a company. 05:28:41 I would be probably calling them on the phone tomorrow as well. 05:29:10 My friend theorized the other day that there's been a global increase in incompetence in recent years, perhaps because of too many people being spread too thinly over too much work due to the bad economy. I'm inclined to agree. 05:29:41 And really, kids these days don't want to work. 05:30:58 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:31:11 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:32:35 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-106.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:33:11 tic: sort of doesn't matter whether they want to work or not, if employers are trying to get by with fewer employees. 05:33:59 Oh, all you Kindle users: Coders at Work is now--finally--available on Kindle. 05:35:16 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 05:35:29 gigamonkey, I guess. Unemployment is large. 05:35:43 I hope the Kindle format will work on my soon-to-be-SONY Reader. 05:36:15 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-0-113.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:36:15 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 05:36:26 tic: Yeah, I know nothing about that. 05:36:35 gigamonkey, I have already got the book in dead-tree format. I'd rather not buy it twice. Is it possible to get it anyway? 05:37:03 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 05:37:07 tic: I don't know anything about how to get Kindle books other than from Amazon. I suspect they're going to make you pay twice. 05:37:23 Bummer. OK, thanks. :/ 05:38:02 gigamonkey: I think it is all because people watch too much television 05:38:29 So it looks like you can download the file from Amazon to your computer. So then the only question is can the Sony reader grok the mobi file with Amazon's DRM foo on it. 05:43:16 Mhm. 05:46:39 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:46:39 hasn't most of the formats converters among eachother? 05:46:48 or is it illegal to convert the format 05:47:03 if you can get it off your Kindle 05:48:10 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 05:48:58 swathanthran [n=user@117.204.80.22] has joined #lisp 05:51:44 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 05:52:16 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:55:02 tic: it's a usb drive and it shows you the whole file system, I don't think that will be a problem. 05:55:07 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:55:44 gigamonkey: I believe there are tools that can crack the .mobi DRM that amazon uses; once that's gone, it's just a zip file with html in it, anyway (: 05:57:22 probably not easy to find, though, as amazon are quite good at suing whoever puts information up regarding this (: 06:02:44 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-211-174.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:03:23 fgtech^ [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 06:03:36 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:03:54 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590f895b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:55 -!- fgtech^ is now known as fgtech 06:05:33 er..does anyone know how to find the information for offline users on freenode? 06:06:27 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 06:09:06 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:09:08 -!- seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:10:37 fgtech^ [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 06:11:14 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:11:36 -!- fgtech^ is now known as fgtech 06:12:07 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:12:12 Okay, can someone explain Google's logo today to me? Is this the anniversary of the invention of the bar code or something? 06:12:40 hello 06:13:51 gigamonkey: http://www.mbtmag.com/article/295713-Bar_code_and_laser_scanner_celebrate_35th_anniversary.php 06:14:21 may be they were late to read that. 06:14:49 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.83] has joined #lisp 06:15:03 swathanthran: There you go. Thanks. 06:15:10 Alright folks, goodnight. 06:15:18 serichsen [n=harleqin@77.6.194.247] has joined #lisp 06:15:23 good morning 06:15:31 good after noon 06:16:19 it's funny how a little space can change meaning 06:18:05 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:20:54 aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has joined #lisp 06:21:38 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 06:25:28 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:31:19 /join #ffmpeg 06:31:34 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-223-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:32:28 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 06:34:24 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:39:51 -!- swathanthran [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:41:54 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-206-101-31.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:42:36 girzel [n=user@222.169.203.77] has joined #lisp 06:45:00 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:46:13 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 06:46:23 sykopomp [n=root@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 06:49:51 ASau [n=user@host121-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 06:51:26 lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-207-245.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:52 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:53:31 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:54:43 francogrex [n=user@91.179.241.210] has joined #lisp 06:55:58 who is doing lisp at this hour? 06:58:31 splittist [n=dmurray@85.4.220.156] has joined #lisp 06:58:35 morning 06:58:43 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@217.18.135.36] has joined #lisp 07:00:18 manuel__ [n=manuel@pD9E6FCF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:37 mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6FCF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:39 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:02:39 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 07:04:25 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:07:28 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 07:09:22 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 07:10:09 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.83] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:11:10 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:11:24 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-82-22.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:11:33 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-82-22.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:12:39 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.204.26] has joined #lisp 07:12:47 :exit 07:12:51 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.179.241.210] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:14:10 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:14:23 good morning 07:14:54 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-134-58.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 07:15:59 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-0-209.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:17:10 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:17:33 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.71] has joined #lisp 07:26:38 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-95-84.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:31:39 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-31-106.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:31:41 morganb [n=user@wsip-98-188-196-29.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:18 cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #lisp 07:36:17 mnl_ [n=mnl@pD9E6FCF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:36:34 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 07:38:36 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp029.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:43:26 -!- mnl_ [n=mnl@pD9E6FCF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:46:58 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:48:27 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-199-247.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 07:48:30 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:49:19 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-22-254.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:50:22 maus [n=maus@222.253.93.237] has joined #lisp 07:50:27 shiva8 [n=Administ@c-98-220-107-98.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:50:37 i am trying to install the scheme software by MIT 07:50:51 i tried it on Linux and it gives me a segmentation fault..when i try the command scheme 07:50:55 shiva8: /join #scheme 07:51:05 this channel is for common lisp. 07:52:02 i'm a newbie and i have a question about push-button. Please help me! 07:52:15 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@217.18.135.36] has quit [] 07:52:18 maus: about -what-? 07:53:57 I have a push-button, it's label is "label1". And i want that when i click on it, it's label will be changed to "label2". How can i do this? 07:54:43 (when (on-click-of push-button) (setf (label-of push-button) "label2")) 07:54:46 like dat 07:56:10 Thank you so much, i will try. 07:58:19 *Ralith* wonders how lnostdal had any idea what maus was asking about 07:58:32 i have absolutely no idea, Ralith .. heh 07:58:44 had* 08:00:21 -!- mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6FCF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:00:33 lnostdal: you made that up, didn't you? :P 08:01:32 yes, kind of .. orwell, it's pretty much how i do it in my webstuff 08:01:43 :} 08:01:56 :D 08:03:42 Good morning! 08:03:49 -!- spiaggia` is now known as spiaggia 08:03:59 spiaggia: good morning! 08:06:18 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:07:20 hello spiaggia 08:08:10 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:09:03 lnostdal: i think it does not work for me. I'm using Clim to create my push-button 08:09:52 ah, it's a good idea the include information like that, maus :) 08:10:30 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:10:37 maus: explaining what you've tried, maybe pasting it, is also helpful. 08:10:50 lnostdal: Please help me 08:10:51 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:13:24 I'm a newbie so.. My idea is wanting to change the push-button's label (created by using McClim) to another new label when clicking on it. I do not know how to do that. 08:15:20 I love this channel, so much fun here 08:15:45 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.128] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:16:03 -!- ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [] 08:20:21 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.204.26] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:20:45 maus: what is your activate-callback for the push-button? Presumably this should setf your new label text. 08:20:46 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:21:05 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:25:16 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:26:40 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@c-76-23-34-5.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:27:49 splittist: i want to build a function in order to be used in activate-callback. But i don' know there is any property of gadget "push-button" allow me to get value of label and change it? 08:30:46 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:30:56 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:45 mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6FCF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:00 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:35:53 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-33-92-164.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 08:39:36 maus: a push-button is a labelled-gadget, isn't it? 08:41:04 maus: with a gadget-label accessor 08:41:27 splittist: yes, when i create it i can set it's label to "label1" using :label "label1" 08:43:18 splittist: i've not try gadget-label.. i think it could work. Thank you for your advice 08:46:47 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:46:56 minion: who are you? 08:47:46 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-82-22.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 08:48:10 minion: tell udzinari about lisp 08:48:10 udzinari: look at lisp: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 08:48:27 splittist: again thank you so much for giving me the "gadget-label". I think my problem can be solved then. 08:49:38 hugod_ [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441179.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 08:50:56 minion: tell udzinari about swank 08:50:57 udzinari: please look at swank: See SLIME. http://www.cliki.net/swank 08:51:36 -!- maus [n=maus@222.253.93.237] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:56:49 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441541.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:56:49 -!- hugod_ is now known as hugod 08:57:07 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:34 tmitt [n=seg@adsl-150-224-7.tys.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:10 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:07:56 Is it possible to ask swank to list all defined classes in a package? And then ask it to list all its slots? (or maybe I should ask: where can I find good documentation for swank?) 09:08:34 -!- aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:09:08 -!- lsk_ [n=HJS@122.116.5.215] has left #lisp 09:10:03 morning 09:10:38 you could easily do it without swank, just using with-package-iterator and classp(?) 09:12:06 -!- ia_ [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:13:02 (typep object 'standard-object)? 09:13:24 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:13:29 ia_ [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 09:13:32 find-class? 09:13:52 tic: thanks, I'll try that then... 09:13:53 more than one way to skin a rabbit! 09:14:13 (any idea why lichtblau used swank for atdoc (documentation generation thingy) then?) 09:14:53 thijso: to not reinvent a wheel? 09:15:45 right... but what I want isn't in swank then? 09:16:56 for swank-backend:arglist IIANM 09:16:57 dwh [n=dwh@118.209.232.128] has joined #lisp 09:19:56 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-50-22.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:20:27 aja_ [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 09:21:07 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:24:30 aha... 09:24:55 btw, lichtblau, did you see I put up a fork for atdoc on github with a number of small fixes? 09:26:55 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:27:12 just looking at it. good to know what someone is working on it! 09:32:59 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2C7EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:33:09 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2C92A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:33:12 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 09:37:30 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-58-22.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:37:58 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:40:35 (If I had the time and energy for this at the moment, I'd be working more on atdoc/parse-docstrings/texinfo-docstrings integration and refactoring than the "old" atdoc codebase.) 09:41:56 myst [n=myst@93.125.66.16] has joined #lisp 09:45:19 -!- mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6FCF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:46:04 are those part of atdoc or seperate projects? 09:46:46 at the moment, separate projects. 09:47:13 texinfo-docstrings was a standalone library parsing CMUCL-style docstrings and writing texinfo. 09:48:11 parse-docstrings is my (almost finished) attempt at a library combining the CMUCL-docstring parsing code from texinfo-docstrings with the atdoc-syntax parsing code from atdoc. So no matter which syntax you want, there would be a library giving you a parsed CLOS representation of the docstring. 09:49:27 And it offers an "annotation" macro allowing function documentation to be put outside of the macro, as as alternative to traditional docstrings. This also allows CMUCL-style docstrings to be annotated with per-argument information outside of the main docstring (which atdoc does using markup in the docstring). 09:49:54 What's missing is the new texinfo-docstrings, which would be built on top of parse-docstrings. It's partly there, but not yet functional. 09:50:16 ah, sounds very interesting 09:50:21 And I'm imagining an xml-docstrings system that takes parse-docstrings and writes out stuff in xml syntax, so that atdoc can then build on that and just send it through its XSL stylesheets. 09:51:12 but you're strapped for time? any idea when all of this would approach releasability? 09:53:36 afk, time for lunch... 09:54:47 -!- sykopomp [n=root@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:55:13 -!- myst [n=myst@93.125.66.16] has left #lisp 09:55:18 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:59:41 Not certain, but perhaps the whole xml-docstrings plan is too ambitious for the moment, because it amounts to a total atdoc rewrite. It might be easier to just plug parse-docstrings into atdoc directly, replacing its current docstring parser. 10:02:07 fiveop [n=fiveop@e179125099.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:02:13 Reaver2 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 10:02:56 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:05:04 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-132-170-158.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:09:03 drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-134-50.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:09:57 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:32 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:13:45 -!- Reaver2 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:15:37 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has joined #lisp 10:17:03 hello 10:19:09 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 10:20:06 myst [n=myst@93.125.66.16] has joined #lisp 10:21:55 -!- Guest98531 [n=user@cpe-74-71-11-230.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:23:11 -!- emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-11-230.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:25:00 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:26:01 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:27:26 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:27:42 hello fe[nl]ix, having a good day i hope 10:34:00 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 10:37:01 rstandy [n=rastandy@pc212-189-140-32.unile.it] has joined #lisp 10:38:47 Guthur: I suppose so 10:39:18 Xof: http://rvw.doc.gold.ac.uk/sullivan/darcs/spatial-trees is unavailable 10:39:32 yeah, someone turned the machine off 10:40:16 lol 10:40:54 fixing 10:41:04 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 10:41:10 actually when I say "turned the machine off" I mean "kicked the power bar" 10:41:52 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:42:05 -!- cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:44:51 anybody know of someone active in NLP and large-scale automatic text translation? 10:44:51 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 10:45:06 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:46:07 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:46:07 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@85.4.220.156] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:46:07 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:46:07 -!- male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:46:07 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:46:07 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@lawn-143-215-206-166.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:46:07 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:46:07 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1279405258.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:46:07 -!- DrForr [n=drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:46:07 -!- ski [n=slj@c-c110e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:46:07 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@173.176.100.238] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:46:07 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:46:07 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:46:07 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:46:07 -!- spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:46:07 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:46:07 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:46:07 -!- dmelani [n=dmelani@c83-253-52-86.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:46:07 -!- Intensity [i=[9N7YOGl@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:46:07 knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has joined #lisp 10:46:29 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:46:29 splittist [n=dmurray@85.4.220.156] has joined #lisp 10:46:29 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:29 male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:29 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:29 djkthx [n=yacin@lawn-143-215-206-166.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 10:46:29 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 10:46:29 rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1279405258.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 10:46:29 DrForr [n=drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:29 ski [n=slj@c-c110e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:46:29 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@173.176.100.238] has joined #lisp 10:46:29 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 10:46:29 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:29 rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:46:29 spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 10:46:29 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has joined #lisp 10:46:29 dmelani [n=dmelani@c83-253-52-86.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:46:29 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 10:46:49 -!- male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:46:52 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Client Quit] 10:47:27 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 10:47:34 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 10:47:42 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:55 male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:35 mainly i am interested in processes and techniques for rewriting inputs to improve translation 10:49:29 all the texts are of one domain and they're not too technical; i simplify the inputs, but i think i need something a little more established; i am sure this has been done before. 10:49:56 Which languages? 10:50:50 rstandy` [n=rastandy@pc212-189-140-32.unile.it] has joined #lisp 10:51:05 arabic 10:51:31 And English? 10:51:38 don't worry about the language; i just need techniques. i think ilitirit/c|mell might know something 10:51:40 yes 10:51:48 english input into arabic 10:51:56 The languages are significant. 10:52:07 highly structured, fully tagged data 10:52:42 How much parallel text do you have? 10:52:48 i have built a table of all the most important words and i have manually gone over the automatic translation .. 10:53:29 Zhivago: NONE. but i can produce up to 5% of the inputs in parallel text via automatic translation and eye-ball correction 10:54:38 How much text do you want to translate? 10:55:24 whenever the translator has trouble with some phrasing, i hand edit it and feed it again. however when i am happy with the phrasing, i am forced to go back and edit similar phrasings in the input corpora. 10:55:35 Zhivago: right now i have close to 800MBs 10:55:46 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 10:55:51 50k reports 10:56:02 It might be worthwhile picking up some parallel corpuses which should help with the basic grammar rather than technical terms. 10:56:08 sykopomp [n=root@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 10:57:10 it does the basic grammar perfectly, i just want to augment it with my domain expertise for the technical stuff 10:57:46 Well, you'll have to be less vague then. 10:58:20 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:00:43 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-132-170-158.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:01:18 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:01:49 for example, if "GDP" means Gross Domestic Product, the translator trips and generates "disgusting local multiplication". I go back and hand translate "GDP" to arabic as an 'escaped' text and the translation is perfect. 11:02:14 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Success] 11:02:55 however, GDP is a genderless in English. In Arabic, it's a male, so i have to hand conjugate the sentence it occurs in .. 11:03:05 genderless noun 11:03:41 Ok, so your problem is mainly with NCCs, then. 11:04:44 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@pc212-189-140-32.unile.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:05:04 This is one good reason to use parallel texts. 11:05:49 Then your translation problem essentially becomes a least-cost ngram overlapping tiling problem. 11:05:57 But it sounds like you're using a rule based system, so ... 11:06:10 acronymexpand-1 NCC 11:06:19 Hmm, parallel English-Arabic 11:06:21 non-composition compound 11:07:01 Jafet: they start at $5k a pop :-( 11:07:14 Oh, so they exist. 11:07:33 Sure they do. I'll bet there's a bunch of free parallel korans around. :) 11:07:43 Not that the Koran is going to help you with GDP ... 11:08:01 Jafet: http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/eric/latifa/arabic_corpora.htm 11:08:06 The united nations has a whole bunch of parallel text, iirc. 11:08:25 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:08:29 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has left #lisp 11:08:32 Zhivago: I have the U.N. documents but I am no NLPer and don't know how to evaluate algorithms or train them 11:08:57 my sophistication stops at the google translate ajax API 11:09:40 fusss: Hmm, do you want to be an NLPer? 11:09:50 Zhivago: what tools and techniques do you recommend for me? what is the easiest way to get started? 11:09:55 of course I do 11:10:34 Perhaps you could email some of the people here http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/eric/latifa/ArabResearchers.htm 11:10:34 carlocci [n=locci__@93.37.194.210] has joined #lisp 11:11:03 Well, you could start by googling for something like "parallel text ngram" 11:11:05 Jafet: I emailed that Latifa lady 3 weeks ago, no response 11:11:10 And you might find the Moses project useful. 11:11:34 what's your take on the python NLP toolkit? 11:11:39 there is a book on it as well 11:12:31 Haven't used it -- it's probably going to have difficulty with large corpuses, though. 11:13:54 right of the bat, what statistical or machine learning approaches are most applicable here? NNs? stochastic methods? SVMs? others? 11:14:04 *fusss* just shooting in the dark 11:15:05 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 11:15:14 For this? n-gram models is where I would start. 11:15:45 So you might want to think about markov chains as well. 11:16:05 alright 11:16:11 *fusss* takes a deep breath 11:16:30 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:16:34 Bayesian theory might also help with it. 11:16:50 btw, a wiki-like "edit this page" option is also feasible; but i wanted to have something decent going on before giving the database to users 11:16:53 These are all pretty much the same thing -- just from different directions. 11:17:30 In your case, I'd start with http://www.statmt.org/moses/?n=FactoredTraining.BuildingLanguageModel 11:17:37 i just wanna start playing with code; don't have time to delve into theory just to find a new hotter theory elsewhere 11:17:46 Sure, see above. 11:18:01 Duct-tape NLP! 11:18:26 Zhivago: cheers mate! thanks a lot 11:19:14 I was meaning to study Arabic a couple of years back, but didn't find the time. 11:25:03 -!- drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-134-50.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 11:25:06 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 11:26:05 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-147-40-39.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:26:28 start with Maltese 11:26:58 it's in Latin script and will teach you 80% of spoken arabic grammar and 90% of the vocabulary 11:27:55 not even arabs speak arabic 11:28:22 very few people are able to enjoy the gymnastics the language is capable of 11:29:44 for spoken arabic, you can pick up Levantian very quickly; syrian and lebanese speakers can't themselves pronounce the most difficult sounds in arabic 11:30:35 angerman [n=angerman@d108.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 11:30:35 that's why most western diplomats speak in Syrian :-) 11:30:36 -!- angerman [n=angerman@d108.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:30:38 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 11:30:58 I heard syrians speak the closest to proper arabic 11:31:17 and that jordanians are very good 11:31:50 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 11:31:55 I heard guys from OAE are really good in it :-) 11:32:03 the educated class are the most eloquent, and those don't speak in street syrian. ditto with jordanians, but their higher education is english, so everyone who graduated from a university after 1995 is bilingual. 11:32:53 ya, learning Arabic is on my todo list, its not easy though as a european 11:32:58 my boss is french-syrian and i have to translate her own press releases to her ;-) 11:33:14 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 11:33:23 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:33:52 hi tcr 11:34:14 howdy 11:34:45 Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:34:45 fe[nl]ix: What's so bad about the implementation of weak dependencies in ASDF in your opinion? 11:34:47 i wanna learn Persian, always wanted to read Khayyam in original 11:35:11 farsi* 11:35:33 ah, yes 11:35:50 binarin [n=user@62.105.145.214] has joined #lisp 11:37:25 i was looking for arabic works on Logic, apparently there is alot not translated 11:39:08 Guthur: logic? I have Russel right here on my desktop 11:40:22 i collect arabic mathematics books; feel free to request them. what i don't have in ebook is back in the U.S. :-) 11:41:45 cool, i mainly need arabic for reading the Quran, but i had a feeling they may have some interesting works on logic, they brought alot to mathematics 11:42:52 Abdul Rahman Badawi translated every work on logic from ancient greece to russel 11:45:07 Guthur: what other languages do you speak? 11:45:41 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:45:43 i'm not good at languages, only english, tiniest bit of french, and starting arabic 11:45:47 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:46:24 programming languages, no problem, human communication umm.... 11:46:25 there are plenty of really cool medieval Arabic works on optics afaik 11:46:43 Bertrand Russel, Principles of Mathematics (pt1. Arabic) http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2083231/%D8%A8%D8%B1%D8%AA%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%AF%20%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%B3%D9%84..%D8%A3%D8%B5%D9%88%D9%84%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B1%D9%8A%D8%A7%D8%B6%D9%8A%D8%A7%D8%AA%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AC%D8%B2%D8%A1%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D9%88%D9%84.pdf 11:47:23 myst: bin Haytham :-) 11:48:00 Part 2 http://bit.ly/2iWoLD 11:48:20 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-134-58.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:49:58 _YKY_ [i=YKY@119.237.170.87] has joined #lisp 11:50:04 i need to get back to my presentation, on a paper about Eye communication in a conversational 3D synthetic agent, only got about 3 hours left to finish 11:50:07 tcr: it's harmful because it introduces even more nondeterminism in the build process 11:50:15 mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6FCF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:30 Guthur: cheers! 11:50:54 <_YKY_> My macro cannot use a lexical variable from the caller.. how can I get around that? 11:52:02 _YKY_: why? There's nothing simplier in CL than to capture a lexical variable. 11:52:04 ya its not that exciting, not really my thing either, but its the paper i was given/volunteered for 11:52:13 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:52:48 <_YKY_> I got the error: 'variable Q has no value' 11:53:04 That's probably because you tried to use it at macroexpansion time. 11:53:18 Of course, lexical variables are available only at run-time. 11:54:02 (defmacro s (var) `(print (list ',var ,var))) (let ((x 42)) (s x)) 11:55:39 <_YKY_> http://paste.lisp.org/display/88330 11:56:01 good afternoon/whatever it is in your timezone :) 11:56:16 <_YKY_> Oh I see... 11:56:27 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:56:28 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 11:56:51 _YKY_: http://paste.lisp.org/+1W5M/1 11:57:21 But it is nicer for the user of the macro to let him pass the variable as a parameter, rather than having the macro generate code with free variables. 11:57:44 udzinari: good time of the day! 11:58:24 -!- emmy [n=em@cpe-98-14-154-71.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:10:22 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-22-254.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:10:59 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 12:13:53 <_YKY_> Seems to be ok now... thanks! =) 12:15:19 ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 12:15:24 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-134-50.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:18:08 cddr` [n=user@mail.formedix.com] has joined #lisp 12:18:45 no_mind [n=orion@122.163.250.15] has joined #lisp 12:19:03 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:20:03 isabellf [n=isabellf@69.70.143.242] has joined #lisp 12:20:38 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:22:29 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:38 can anybody hint where I can get latest lisppaste source (CVS?) 12:28:54 udzinari: common-lisp.net CVS 12:31:17 udzinari: cvs -d :pserver:anonymous:anonymous@common-lisp.net:/project/lisppaste/cvsroot co lisppaste2 12:32:53 fe[nl]ix: thanks! I know how to use cvs :D 12:36:09 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:36:22 kpreid [n=kpreid@209.217.212.34] has joined #lisp 12:40:41 -!- girzel [n=user@222.169.203.77] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:42:31 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 12:42:32 ArtVandalae [n=SuperUnk@220-253-38-251.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:43:21 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-253-17.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 12:44:42 Hi guys... I have a datum, and it looks like this: (#(1 2 3) a), now I want to store this in a list (no problem), (cons '(#(1 2 3)) '())... the issue arises when I try to find: '(#(1 2 3) a) in my "database" (list). It appears that: '(#(1 2 3) a) is not equal to '(#(1 2 3) a). Instead of writing a recursive "comparer", is there anything else I can do. e.g. Convert them to "strings" and compare them? 12:45:25 ArtVandalae: you can use #'equalp 12:45:55 it works, thank you very much 12:46:49 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:50 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@90.149.117.111] has quit ["does a backflip into the lava"] 12:54:00 -!- dwh [n=dwh@118.209.232.128] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:58:50 sellout- [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:59:16 -!- gz [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:59:30 ArtVandalae: it might be more clear if you use (list #(1 2 3)) 13:00:32 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:35 alec [n=alec@pool-96-237-13-64.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:47 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@90.149.103.151] has joined #lisp 13:03:37 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 13:09:22 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 13:11:19 <_YKY_> If I define a macro and invoke it, the macro expansion is inserted into the program, right? 13:12:40 yes. 13:12:50 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2C7EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:58 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2C7EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:13:01 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 13:13:07 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-147-40-39.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 13:13:46 cyborg1 [i=YKY@119.237.170.87] has joined #lisp 13:13:55 Sorry got dc 13:14:14 morganb` [n=user@wsip-98-188-196-29.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:22 -!- _YKY_ [i=YKY@119.237.170.87] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:14:26 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:14:32 ASau` [n=user@host121-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 13:14:38 -!- cyborg1 is now known as _YKY_ 13:15:19 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:15:19 -!- ArtVandalae [n=SuperUnk@220-253-38-251.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:15:19 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:15:19 -!- morganb [n=user@wsip-98-188-196-29.ga.at.cox.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:15:19 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:15:19 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-207-245.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:15:19 -!- ASau [n=user@host121-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:15:19 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:15:19 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:15:19 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:15:26 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 13:16:15 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:16:16 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 13:18:05 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:14 -!- carlocci [n=locci__@93.37.194.210] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:20:27 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441179.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 13:21:40 <_YKY_> It seems that my macros are evaluated at loading time.. is that normal? 13:25:24 rudi [n=rudi@mail.ist.tu-graz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 13:25:30 <_YKY_> Does it matter whether I place the macro definition before or after the caller? 13:26:25 _YKY_: macros are evaluated at macro expansion time. This may indeed occur at various different times, such as compilation time, load time or run time, depending on the implementation. If you write a conformant program it shouldn't make a difference. 13:26:31 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:26:46 _YKY_: it would be better that your macro definitions be before their uses. 13:26:56 "before" in terms of times. 13:27:36 <_YKY_> It seems to work better if I place it after.. textually 13:27:46 This is automatically ensured within a file if you write the defmacro before the use, but in general you'll want to put your macro in a separate file, that you can compile and load into the compilation environment before compiling the rest of the program. 13:28:19 _YKY_: Its up to you, blue pill or red pill? 13:28:25 s/Its/It's/ 13:29:23 <_YKY_> Heh.. I don't understand why it makes a difference, but it works only if I place it below the caller 13:29:30 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:29:36 _YKY_: this is wrong. 13:29:37 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 13:30:25 If you use a compiler then it won't work. If you use an interpreter then it might work. 13:31:37 dan_b [n=dan@82-68-20-86.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:31:43 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 13:32:23 hi dan_b 13:32:45 ullo 13:33:57 ArtVandalae [n=SuperUnk@220-253-38-251.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:34:58 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-75-150.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:35:06 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:37:47 oh, ah. maybe I answered my own sbcl question. 13:38:15 the installed binary is somehow 4 months newer than the source I was looking at 13:38:43 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:39:30 -!- isabellf [n=isabellf@69.70.143.242] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:45:19 but while I go off on the cvs/rebuild sidetrack that prompts that, anyone know offhand how to get the old behaviour of DESCRIBE back? it seems to be truncating lists at 72 (ish) characters, which is not very descriptive 13:46:42 set *print-right-margin* to something large 13:50:57 good lord, my hardware growth seems to have outstripped sbcl's growth for once. ten minute rebuild 13:52:07 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 13:52:53 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:54:19 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.194.210] has joined #lisp 13:56:08 Summermute [n=scott@68.34.67.216] has joined #lisp 13:58:20 stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:18 -!- stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has quit ["nah"] 14:02:50 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:06:11 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:07:23 -!- mrSpec is now known as MrSpec_ 14:07:45 -!- MrSpec_ is now known as mrSpec 14:08:05 -!- Foofie is now known as Fufie 14:12:02 nipra [n=nipra@122.169.88.219] has joined #lisp 14:12:29 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 14:13:23 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has quit ["Valete!"] 14:13:42 milanj [n=milan@93.87.166.187] has joined #lisp 14:18:01 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 14:19:15 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [Client Quit] 14:19:18 exu0 [n=u@dslb-084-056-138-192.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:21 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has joined #lisp 14:20:49 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2C7EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:21:13 grouzen_ [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 14:21:16 lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-207-245.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:54 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:22:05 phf` [n=user@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 14:22:47 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-211-174.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:55 -!- alec [n=alec@pool-96-237-13-64.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:25:00 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:25:27 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:25:28 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 14:26:42 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 14:27:36 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:29:49 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:30:50 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has joined #lisp 14:31:19 Axioplas1_ [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 14:33:17 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:34:41 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 14:34:43 hello 14:35:44 Good time of the day! 14:39:53 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.71] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 14:40:15 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.169.88.219] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:40:47 nipra [n=nipra@122.169.88.219] has joined #lisp 14:41:09 yango_ [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 14:44:03 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 14:44:09 Greetings. 14:44:33 -!- Axioplase_ [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:48:02 -!- Pepe__ is now known as Pepe_ 14:48:27 antgreen [n=user@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM0018c0b3c272.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:49:30 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209.217.212.34] has quit [] 14:49:57 hello tmh 14:50:17 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.87.176] has joined #lisp 14:51:21 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.169.88.219] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:51:29 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:51:47 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:51:48 I dont suppose anyone has a more complete (wince) SOAP implementation than cl-soap? 14:51:55 nipra [n=nipra@122.169.88.219] has joined #lisp 14:52:28 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:52:44 bobbysmith007: I think Allegro CL includes a more complete SOAP library. 14:53:52 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-43.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:54:01 Xach: thanks, I will look at into that 14:54:16 http://www.franz.com/support/documentation/current/doc/soap.htm 14:54:36 hi levy. I have a 'component :METACOPY-WITH-CONTEXTL not found, required by hu.dwim.meta-model' 14:55:26 levy: and I can see in metacopy.asd, that there is a *load-with-contextl* 14:55:55 kami, is there a restart with which you can ignore it? 14:56:44 it's not a separate system, so asdf won't find it by itself 14:56:54 kami-: apols if a FAQ, but what is the webapp you are working on? 14:57:08 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:10 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 14:57:24 levy: it happens during a development build. will meta-model work as expected? 14:57:52 splittist: an application for management of volunteers who perform social work 14:58:04 kami-, I suppose this is during building the development image, so it's no problem if not loaded in the image 14:58:11 levy: thanks 14:58:14 it will be loaded when you load other systems 14:58:23 kami-: thanks! 14:58:28 there's just no easy fix/workaround for that 14:58:53 r0bby_ [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 14:58:58 levy: no problem. It would be probably nice, if it was mentioned somewhere in the docs. 14:59:08 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-216-114.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:01 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:00:14 kami-, right, but in the last days I was fighting with browsers and that drives me crazy 15:00:18 levy: I'm now using the dumped core and get that error again 15:00:42 levy: it is not the task with the highest prio :) 15:01:14 I guess if there would be an 'delete all browsers from all computers in the universe' command somewhere, I would certainly run it 15:01:23 levy: the missing metacopy-with-contextl is! 15:02:48 kami-, I'll put this on my todo list 15:03:05 levy: do I have to set *load-with-contextl* before loading my package? 15:03:44 no, when metacopy-with-contextl is loaded it just does that 15:03:53 the problem is that it is hooked up in the contextl system 15:03:57 and does not have its own asd file 15:04:04 so the build tool can't find it 15:04:13 er, asdf can't find it 15:04:22 levy: hope klingons don't use browsers 15:04:25 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has quit ["Valete!"] 15:04:30 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:04:39 levy, but you get a correct build for hu.dwim.blog, don't you? 15:04:56 kami, we are not there yet 15:05:00 I only build hu.dwim.home 15:05:01 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:05:06 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 15:05:17 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 15:05:19 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@217.18.135.36] has joined #lisp 15:05:21 Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:23 Ah OK. 15:05:26 the install guide code supposed to be soon refactored so that it provides an install guide for each of our projects 15:05:35 so hu.dwim.blog should be covered too 15:06:09 but before that I want to make wui work on all major browsers that covers at least 90% of the clients 15:06:11 ajax and all that 15:06:50 levy: if I could make you change your mind and finish the meta-gui, first :) 15:06:53 BTW, what's your deadline? 15:06:58 -!- cddr` [n=user@mail.formedix.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:07:05 cddr` [n=user@mail.formedix.com] has joined #lisp 15:07:07 -!- rstandy` [n=rastandy@pc212-189-140-32.unile.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:07:17 levy: October 16 15:07:28 kami-, I wish I could work on this all time instead of half time 15:07:44 kami-, eh... you are really brave ;-) 15:08:00 rstandy` [n=rastandy@pc212-189-140-32.unile.it] has joined #lisp 15:08:06 levy: it's 'a kind of' deadline. Not real production, yet. 15:08:12 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has joined #lisp 15:08:42 kami, if you have patches you think worth considering don't hesitate to let us know 15:09:01 unfortunately attila is off for two weeks due to a minor surgery 15:10:01 levy: I guess cross-browser support is more important for you than the meta-gui (hint, hint) 15:10:07 kami-, before the meta gui part I also want to revive popup/context menus, but those must be lazy, because they would slow down the client pretty much 15:10:16 kami-, what's you priority on meta-gui? 15:10:18 ol3 [n=user@82.113.121.154] has joined #lisp 15:10:18 which part? 15:10:19 -!- jahmarley [n=kenan@88.238.198.77] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:10:54 IIRC you don't use authorization, right? 15:11:03 but you are using perec 15:11:06 Grrr. Why must the emacs Abbrev facility rely on word syntax. 15:11:20 levy: the slot types which are used in my entities, of course. Authorisation is not an issue, initially. 15:11:27 inspectors and filers are enough? 15:11:38 s/filers/filters 15:11:43 jahmarley [n=kenan@88.238.195.59] has joined #lisp 15:12:00 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 15:12:20 levy: yes. Do I have makers when I have inspectors? 15:12:48 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-174-63.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 15:12:48 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-174-63.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has left #lisp 15:13:10 no, they are somewhat different event though they share a substantial part called presentation 15:13:42 levy: I have to be able to search, display, create and edit the entities. 15:13:44 hehe, I'm also working on Discrete Event Simulation, so I can't type even 15:13:52 it always becomes event 15:14:12 kami-, so practically all 15:14:57 -!- ASau` [n=user@host121-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 15:15:15 levy: sorry about that :) 15:16:27 redblue [i=star@ppp163.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:17:09 levy: if you point me to the right direction, I could do some of the work. 15:17:27 but only dumb, repetitive tasks :) 15:17:33 mnl_ [n=mnl@pD9E6FCF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:42 kami-, you know what would really be the best 15:19:53 what I always wanted to have but did not have time for it 15:19:59 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:20:12 wui does not have an automatic regression test suite 15:20:15 envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 15:20:16 I really miss that 15:20:19 -!- rudi [n=rudi@mail.ist.tu-graz.ac.at] has quit ["Client exciting"] 15:20:28 most of our libs just have a test function in their test system/package 15:20:34 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit ["Disconnecting from stoned server."] 15:20:37 Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 15:20:39 -!- Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:20:48 fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 15:20:58 perec has a number of tests 15:21:04 for example 15:21:48 so if you could make an automated test we could have higher quality code, less regression, etc. 15:21:56 I do have ideas how to do that 15:22:01 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:22:02 but no time to implement 15:22:12 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student167-142.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 15:22:19 levy: I would be happy to help 15:22:21 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:22:41 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:22:56 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-50-22.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:22:58 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-50-22.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:22:59 should I describe what's in my head? 15:23:08 levy: yes, please 15:24:12 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-57-73.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:24:34 the test suite would do the testing through HTTP 15:24:41 we already have an example for that 15:24:45 I can send it 15:24:56 it's not that difficult as it sounds 15:25:25 the main reason for that is that you don't need to simulate a full web client 15:26:11 we used drakma as the HTTP client 15:26:15 -!- mnl_ [n=mnl@pD9E6FCF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:26:41 the test suite would have separate tests for each component 15:27:00 levy: I have used 'programmatic' and functional approaches to automatic web app testing in the past. 15:27:26 using HttpUnit and Selenium/Mercury 15:27:28 kami-, oh, fine 15:27:56 here the test and the server runs in the same vm 15:28:18 so you can manipulate and query the server from the test case directly and through HTTP too 15:28:25 whichever is the easier 15:29:01 render-component and various other functions are layered functions, that allows customizations for the test suite if needed 15:29:44 gigamonkey: Uncle Bob is on the rant again. 15:30:37 to be able to emulate type in you don't have to look up the input field in the HTTP response, you can also look the id up in the component hierarchy 15:30:45 -!- jahmarley [n=kenan@88.238.195.59] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:31:48 levy: how do you emulate interaction with the components in this environment? 15:32:37 levy: do I understand correctly: I find the component in the hierarchy, then set the appropriate slot to the desired value and then POST the whole thing? 15:32:40 kami-, either through HTTP, or by direct manipulation, e.g. looking up actions, emulating sending the client state and call render to see if there were any errors 15:33:02 obviously the test will not cover everything, but automating this would really help development 15:33:17 kami-, no 15:33:33 let's talk about an example 15:33:43 you have a t/inspector for an object 15:33:49 wgl: killfile, avoid, etc. 15:33:51 currently in view mode 15:34:34 the test would be to switch to edit mode, type in a text in a field, press save, then press refresh and see if it value is still there 15:34:35 -!- mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6FCF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:35:12 there are two ways to do this, through HTTP and through the server API 15:35:16 let's talk about the latter 15:35:22 so no HTTP this time 15:35:55 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:35:56 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.169.88.219] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:35:58 obviously you will call render-component all the time to check if rendering is still possible, but you can just throw away the result 15:36:18 nipra [n=nipra@122.169.88.219] has joined #lisp 15:36:34 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has quit ["Valete!"] 15:36:38 ejs [n=eugen@tarelka.tenet.odessa.ua] has joined #lisp 15:37:01 so the question is how do you emulate a button click? 15:37:32 fusss: For antidote, I go back to some of the wonderful parts of PAIP where the marvelous five-line examples are so clearly correct that they do not need testing. 15:37:49 amen 15:38:04 you need to find the action in the frame's map, to find out the key, you can search through the commands in the inspector and find the one with the given name (that is a symbolic representation) 15:38:34 you either find this command in the context menu or on the command bar (the same places where the user would do) 15:38:53 except you can't be sure render would actually display it on the screen (but this is no HTTP test for now) 15:39:03 -!- grouzen_ [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:39:13 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:39:18 so now you can emulate command invocations through calling actions 15:39:28 now, how do you pass parameters? 15:39:48 you can search through the component hierarchy and find the string/inspector in question 15:40:27 levy: aren't the id's generated on the fly? 15:40:48 kami-, they are remembered, I just fixed a bug related to this and ajax 15:41:00 OK 15:41:01 Geralt [n=Geralt@91.50.196.154] has joined #lisp 15:41:08 you can find the inspector based on its position in the tree 15:41:28 that is it's the descendant of a component related to a particular slot 15:42:33 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 15:42:38 when you found that, you can call the client state sink with the value 15:42:48 this is what the HTTP request parsing does anyway 15:43:17 so now the only question is how do you validate the result? 15:43:22 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:12 there are three options, query the object (that is being inspected), query the string/inspector, or call render 15:44:35 if you call render, you will need an XML parser and xpath or something to look it up 15:44:51 based on the component's id 15:45:17 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:45:27 jajcloz [n=jaj@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:04 levy: I don't see any problem in this approach per se. I'm only concerned about the amount of code related to these tests and the effort required for the maintenance of the tests 15:46:35 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 15:46:53 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:47:14 kami-, well that is hard to predict... 15:47:30 levy: I can create an in-browser test script with the Selenium recording tool in a very short time. And if I choose my assertions carefully, it will be quite robust against changes in the code base 15:47:57 kami-, recording tool is not the right way to do it 15:48:09 the problem is that there are no abstractions in that 15:48:30 levy: the recording tool is only used initially. But the result is not used as is. 15:48:40 so how are you going to factor out the common parts of the hundreds of test cases? 15:49:08 we have tests for our production application 15:49:34 which goes to the server, logs in, goes to some page, fills in data, checks the result, exports it into pdf, logs out 15:49:39 this is one test case 15:49:45 15 lines of code 15:49:47 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-udgsiwgnmlzhmsmc] has joined #lisp 15:49:47 levy: with Selenium you can include other tests 15:49:58 Guthur [i=c13dbf17@gateway/web/freenode/x-bjxjfezupybespge] has joined #lisp 15:50:16 kami-, I'm sure Selenium is good at what it does, but it's not a programming language 15:50:41 if I would do it, I won't use recording tools, just plain stupid lisp 15:50:50 but of course, it's not me ;-) 15:50:57 levy: of course, it has its limitations. You have surely more control when you control both sides 15:51:05 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Client Quit] 15:51:35 this test code uses HTTP, so it tests more than the previous approach 15:51:53 what's your mail address? 15:52:13 that's a stupid question 15:52:22 er, how do I send a file 15:52:47 ah 15:53:46 darcs get http://dwim.hu/darcs/ebr42 15:53:50 see test/client.lisp 15:55:03 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:09 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181150041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:55:42 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has joined #lisp 15:56:28 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp163.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 15:57:44 ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-79-52.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:59:30 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 15:59:43 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 16:01:15 danlei [n=user@pD9E2C7EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:02 dialtone [n=dialtone@98.210.155.172] has joined #lisp 16:03:14 HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:03:26 levy: OK. I see. The commands which you have like "open-url" or "fill-in" are basically the same as the ones which are used in Selenium. And the approach to use XPath to locate what you are looking for, is used there, too. 16:03:30 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 16:04:27 Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:04:29 any sbcl people around? Does anyone have a feeling for any difference in speed between define-external-format and define-external-format/variable-width? 16:05:17 -!- frontiers [n=frontier@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:05:30 @Xof feelings are never good for performance evaluation, testing is usually a better approach 16:05:39 levy: but, by having full access to the internals of the server, one can do much more thorough testing. I'm convinced. 16:05:40 last I looked (a few months ago) /v-w used vector-push-extend at least for utf-8 16:05:40 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-wgfbhnwuycmnpeyl] has joined #lisp 16:05:48 Guthur: thanks for the advice. 16:05:51 and a non-sane starting length 16:06:13 antifuchs: ok, but that suggests that we should fix vector-push-extend 16:06:30 (why is it that I get patronized here so much?) 16:06:36 pkhuong, no problem at all 16:06:37 worth thinking about though 16:06:38 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 16:06:43 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:06:47 @Xof sorry i didn'tmean it to harshly 16:06:49 the other day I got told to go back to probability 101 16:06:58 must be one of those decades 16:07:02 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:07:35 levy: how would you test asynchronous calls? 16:07:41 Xof: sounds like a plan; otoh, I think I ran a test where the utf-8 external-format allocated at least (length string) bytes, and that wasn't much faster; that was long before 1.0.10, (or even 1.0) though (-: 16:07:45 @Xof anyway must dash, work to do, 16:08:00 oh that wasn't for @Xof it was meant as a general goodbye 16:08:03 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-6-175.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:09 -!- Guthur [i=c13dbf17@gateway/web/freenode/x-bjxjfezupybespge] has quit ["Page closed"] 16:08:35 the motivation here is that (a) I don't want two copies of essentially the same code, and (b) the non v-w case is currently broken in all sorts of interesting ways 16:08:35 Xof: iow, my supposed knowledge is outdated anyway; impression of /v-w was that it's at least correctly implemented, but not totally microoptimized 16:08:48 ah, then that's so much better, even (-: 16:08:52 redblue [i=star@ppp120.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:09:03 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-207-245.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:09:06 if it's not even correctly implemented, that's a great excuse to rewrite it (: 16:10:25 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has quit [] 16:10:41 well, "correct" in as much as anything involving current tangle of fd-stream spaghetti can be thought of as existing in any one state at all 16:11:37 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 16:12:35 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:12:43 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 16:13:04 who was asking me about spatial-trees? fe[nl]ix? The machine's back up 16:13:09 also, http://rvw.doc.gold.ac.uk/sullivan/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=sbcl.git;a=summary 16:13:22 beginning to look less like external-formats and more like grab-bag of miscellaneous stuff 16:13:24 thanks 16:13:48 Xof: no performance comments, but i would no cry if the separation went away 16:14:02 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-udgsiwgnmlzhmsmc] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:14:23 are newline policies on the table yet? 16:14:58 no, I can't work out how to do that in our current implementation 16:15:25 also, I don't understand what happens when e.g. with :macos line-ending conventions you read a 10 16:15:34 or with :dos you read 13, 16:15:35 etc 16:15:45 ok 16:16:12 so no encoding/external-format separation yet? 16:16:26 also, I never touch machines with stupid line-ending conventions 16:16:44 (and my time is too short already) 16:16:53 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:17:17 I think the problem is that I don't actually understand how to do newline conversion properly 16:17:40 (actually, I think I _do_, but you're not going to like it) 16:17:44 hah 16:17:49 do tell 16:18:07 newline stops being either #\Linefeed or #\Return, and becomes a character in the private use area 16:18:12 Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483B8F5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:21 base-strings become 32-bits wide 16:18:31 I don't like it 16:18:37 I told you you wouldn't like it 16:18:47 that's going to break a *lot* of apps 16:19:04 just thought you'd appreciate being right ;-) 16:19:16 fe[nl]ix: it should break no apps 16:19:27 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483EB22.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:19:42 Xof: FFI. 16:19:43 "should" 16:19:49 ffi has an external format conversion 16:20:27 if you're passing pointers to sbcl strings into your ffi you've already lost (unless you're letting sb-alien do it, in which case sb-alien will continue to do the Least Wrong Thing) 16:21:01 Xof: you don't have to jettison base-strings, since they have a whole bit that is not being used... just make them ascii+magic-marker-for-newline 16:21:08 oh haha 16:21:10 good point 16:21:17 that almost makes me want to do it :-) 16:21:24 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:25 Xof: perhaps I misunderstood. you mean that #\Newline will no longer be an alias of #\Linefeed, but a private character ? 16:21:42 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-253-17.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:21:46 isn't there also a unicode newline character? 16:22:24 nikodemus: yes, but that's generally _not_ a platform newline character 16:22:25 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.169.88.219] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:22:36 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-2-147.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:22:36 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 16:22:42 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-253-17.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 16:22:48 fe[nl]ix: yes. What applications does that break, bearing in mind that we're talking about lisp characters and lisp strings? 16:22:49 nipra [n=nipra@122.169.88.219] has joined #lisp 16:22:55 could it not be used as the internal newline marker? 16:23:21 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483B8F5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:23:27 Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483B8F5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:30 nikodemus: no, because it can be present in text such as "Here is the unicode newline character: " 16:23:36 Xof: assuming that (char-code #\Newline) is an (unsigned-byte 8) 16:23:37 oh, right 16:24:02 fe[nl]ix: well, that would break. Does anything actually do that? 16:24:21 I can believe that some things do 16:25:23 Xof: I think that a many of the neworking libraries assume that 16:25:53 surely networking libraries convert #\Newline into the 13,10 sequence that is beloved of networking protocols 16:26:20 if they're emitting just the raw 10, the networking libraries are already broken 16:26:31 Xof: a quick grep in my lisp/src shows too much stuff. I'd have to investigate 16:26:58 Well, what does (char-code #\Newline) give on other lisps? 16:27:41 10, on windows clisp 16:28:00 besides, this is sbcl; we break stuff because it's fun 16:28:16 10 on linux clisp 16:28:17 (I am willing to bet a small amount of money that CLX breaks, fwiw) 16:28:36 minion: chant 16:28:36 MORE RIGOR 16:28:42 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:29:22 Did anyone here attend the presentation of Fortress at the Boston lisp meeting? 16:29:22 The original problem, of course, is that whoever designed ASCII didn't design it as a character set but as a primitive printer language. 16:29:47 I blame the americans 16:29:48 Xof: Go for it! When I pointed out an ANSI bug in Allegro's reader, they responded that they acknowledge the bug, but they feel weary changing the reader for it could easily result in unwanted consequences down the line. 16:30:13 I am weary too 16:30:22 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 16:30:30 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:34 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:30:35 Geralt1 [n=Geralt@p5B32FCB6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:51 bah :) 16:30:53 -!- Geralt1 is now known as Geralt 16:30:57 apropos reader, how can i make the reader case-sensitive? 16:31:22 ol3: (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :preserve) 16:31:24 (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :preserve) 16:31:30 or :invert if you're FEELING LESS SHOUTY 16:31:45 ol3: If you use my named-readtables library, you can use (let ((*readtable* (find-readtable :modern))) ...) 16:31:50 should i copy the readtable first 16:32:21 anyway, all this discussion is somewhat academic in that I don't think I will have the guts to do this 16:32:21 thank you 16:32:56 ol3: don't forget to read 2.2 and 23.1.2 of the Hyperspec when you wonder what's broken. 16:33:23 is there a solution for hunchentoot:stop hanging? 16:33:53 splittist: i will thank you 16:34:10 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.169.88.219] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:35:26 currently, just before calling hunchentoot:stop, I'm starting an eager-future that sleeps for two seconds and then makes a drakma:http-request 16:35:37 but I feel a bit stupid about that 16:35:55 nipra [n=nipra@122.169.88.219] has joined #lisp 16:36:48 do you use the latest version of hunchentoot? 16:37:05 adeht: the one I got from clbuild 16:37:21 adeht: it should be the latest 16:38:23 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:38:26 hunchentoot-asd:*hunchentoot-version* => "1.0.0" 16:38:44 i am using lispworks on windows, and it didn't show me the aruments to functions... 16:38:59 levy: ping 16:39:24 heh 16:40:05 ol3: have you seen http://weitz.de/lw-add-ons/ ? 16:40:36 serichsen: I remember complaining about it and now I don't have that problem.. but it turns out I locally patched it that time 16:40:46 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:41:16 adeht: I read that it has something to do with usocket. Do you remember details? 16:41:52 http://paste.lisp.org/display/88343 16:42:14 ol3: you might also want to try using emacs so you can use slime and paredit. 16:43:00 adeht: thanks! 16:43:09 -!- jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:43:35 splittist: this helps thank you 16:45:10 splittist: i'm using windows and use emacs only for text editing and irc :) 16:45:44 ol3: what else is ther? (: 16:45:48 s/ther/there 16:45:48 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:45:49 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.169.88.219] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:47:07 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-253-17.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:47:58 testsan [n=testsan@p2059-ipbf1804marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:49:46 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:49:50 splittist: I really like the lispworks IDE and I hope i will never have to go back to emacs :) 16:50:25 -!- testsan [n=testsan@p2059-ipbf1804marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has left #lisp 16:50:28 splittist: At least on windows. 16:52:10 -!- rstandy` [n=rastandy@pc212-189-140-32.unile.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:52:25 jahmarley [n=kenan@88.238.45.48] has joined #lisp 16:52:43 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:53:18 how can i create a list of numbers from 0 to n by random order 16:53:43 alexandria:shuffle 16:54:40 gz [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:54:50 thanks 16:56:46 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-253-17.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 16:59:42 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:03:07 ruediger_ [n=ruediger@188-23-185-54.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:03:28 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:03:31 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-79-52.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:03:33 -!- ruediger_ is now known as ruediger 17:04:58 mcspiff [n=user@DC6D4.WPA.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 17:06:33 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:06:53 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:07:18 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 17:07:42 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 17:07:47 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:09:42 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:15 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-211-174.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:12:35 TR2N [i=email@89-180-202-103.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 17:12:35 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-35.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 17:16:34 -!- jahmarley [n=kenan@88.238.45.48] has left #lisp 17:22:05 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:41 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:22:58 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:24:01 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-33-92-164.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:40 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:28:45 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-22-254.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 17:31:49 -!- mcspiff [n=user@DC6D4.WPA.Dal.Ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:33:33 [Jackal]_ [n=manish@118.94.85.127] has joined #lisp 17:38:37 hi 17:39:33 hi 17:40:00 anyone knows good implementation of sieve of Atkin for CL? 17:41:36 salva pasted "another basics" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88347 17:42:06 i need some help with this basic error 17:42:29 salva: DEFPACKAGE is not a function so cannot be funcalled. 17:42:49 clhs make-package 17:42:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_pkg.htm 17:43:35 ok thanks i'll try with make-package 17:45:26 -!- ejs [n=eugen@tarelka.tenet.odessa.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:46:44 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-92-91.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 17:47:11 mcspiff [n=user@DC6D4.WPA.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 17:47:35 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:48:00 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-185-54.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:48:01 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:48:24 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:53:10 -!- HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:54:00 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 17:55:06 -!- mcspiff [n=user@DC6D4.WPA.Dal.Ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:57:37 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:15 mcspiff [n=user@DC6D4.WPA.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 17:59:29 -!- myst [n=myst@93.125.66.16] has left #lisp 18:00:12 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181150041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:00:43 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:01:01 -!- sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.utwente.nl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:02:48 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-22-254.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:03:19 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has joined #lisp 18:05:43 nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has joined #lisp 18:09:05 -!- mqt [i=m@lambda.nirv.net] has left #lisp 18:10:21 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:23 cads [n=max@c-24-30-55-172.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:52 rpg: Do you happen to know Patrick Stein's email address? 18:11:11 rpg: I wanted to ask him about his blog feed, but I can't find contact info on his website anywhere. 18:14:26 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.173] has joined #lisp 18:15:12 magiuspendragon [n=alokbaik@cpe-075-182-122-126.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:15:39 Is there an easy way to generate a unique filename for a tmp file? Don't mind where it goes, I just need to have the handle to write/read from it. 18:16:25 -!- Elench is now known as E 18:16:32 -!- E is now known as Elench 18:17:03 i know gensym makes a unique symbol name... 18:17:31 sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 18:17:34 rullie: but its only unique inside the lisp environ, plus they make rather poor file names 18:18:06 magiuspendragon: passing :error to :if-exists is one way to make sure you are using a new filename. 18:18:23 sb-posix:mktemp 18:18:26 magiuspendragon: :if-exists :error, plus a handler, plus a loop and a counter, is one possible approach. 18:19:00 on some lisps (e.g. sbcl), a loop, handler, and counter will do pretty much what the posix function does. 18:19:13 rather mkstemp 18:19:37 -!- mcspiff [n=user@DC6D4.WPA.Dal.Ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:20:55 mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6FCF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:01 stassats`: got a pointer to docs? i dont' see anything on it in the sbcl manual 18:21:16 man mkstemp 18:21:16 http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man3/mkstemp.3.html 18:21:33 stassats`: thanks 18:22:04 heh specbot has unix manuals too now? 18:22:21 now? for as long as i remember 18:22:33 I see. 18:23:24 posix mkstemp 18:23:24 http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007908799/xsh/mkstemp.html 18:23:32 too 18:24:48 r00t_ [n=r00t@202.3.77.173] has joined #lisp 18:25:30 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:25:40 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.173] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:26:28 -!- r00t_ [n=r00t@202.3.77.173] has quit [Client Quit] 18:27:21 -!- magiuspendragon [n=alokbaik@cpe-075-182-122-126.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["leaving"] 18:27:44 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:27:53 jeti [n=jeti@p548EFA25.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:13 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:27 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-206-40-230.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:29:48 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:33:51 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:37:37 wchogg [n=wchogg@71-34-77-216.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:15 HG` [n=HG@xdslgy078.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:40:21 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:40:43 ok, so XCVB .396 has a nice working xcvb-master. 18:40:43 Fare, memo from tmh: Is there anything from the Fortress talk for online consumption? 18:40:53 Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #lisp 18:41:26 You can (load "/path/to/xcvb/master/master.lisp") and then (xcvb-master:build-and-load "foo") and it will load the latest version of foo in your image after compiling it correctly off-image. 18:41:43 Heh, good time to be lurking. 18:41:45 (and if the upgrade fail because of CL limitations, you can start a new image) 18:41:53 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:05 minion, I'll ask Christine for her slides. 18:42:06 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 18:42:29 Fare: Thanks 18:42:35 tmh: personally I found all it a bit disappointing. 18:42:43 Fare, is it makefile based? 18:42:52 Fare: Oh, I was just about to ask for your impression. The language or the talk? 18:43:00 I mean, there's still something exciting, but also I think things fundamentally wrong. 18:43:36 The language, not the talk -- although the audience being lispers, she could have expanded on the tools available to AST hackers. 18:43:58 levy: xcvb-master's slave is still makefile-based at this point 18:44:10 telebyte___ [n=t@166-189.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:44:13 -!- telebyte___ [n=t@166-189.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 18:44:22 I suppose writing a non-makefile backend wouldn't be too hard, though. 18:44:30 Fare: Do you plan on blogging your thoughts on Fortress? 18:44:49 tmh: I didn't before you suggested it. 18:45:20 isn't fortres the new APL by GSL? 18:45:22 oh, I do possess the slides in my email, actually. 18:45:27 Fare, how does a dual core perform in terms of speed? 18:45:35 something overly mathematical, etc. 18:46:24 levy: with xcvb? will depend on your project. Expect a notable slow down at this point when compiling while enforcing dependencies (the default) 18:46:30 Fare: Don't feel compelled to blog it. I'm just curious if it is really a general purpose language. From what I've read, it seems very specialized. Too specialized. 18:46:37 fusss: that's not the issue. 18:46:42 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:46:56 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:47:00 the main issue is that they are being somewhat low-level about concurrency and concurrency errors. 18:47:01 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslgy078.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:47:38 Shamwow_ [n=eric@d23-164.uoregon.edu] has joined #lisp 18:48:40 as in "we'd like to have a type system or analysis tool to analyze data dependencies, but we don't, so things happen in any order, and if you didn't use proper transactions you'll have weird failures (but we provide transactional memory in case that's enough)" 18:50:07 so things are concurrent by default, which forces you to think about concurrency, and at the same time you have an expensive tool underneath that is forced upon you, and for which you will pay the price even if you don't need it, yet that can only help against so many kinds of failures. 18:50:26 -!- lasts [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 18:50:55 I admit I don't know what the right thing is, but this smells to me of abstraction inversion. 18:51:09 I was reading through the documentation and noticed that. I'm not comfortable with not having much, any control over the order of execution. You have to actually use specific operators to specify sequential execution. 18:51:44 that'd be OK if the language was mostly pure. It seems to me that it isn't. 18:52:03 in a pure language, evaluation order is not as critical. 18:52:31 (new to lisp) - can anyone point me to a listing of functions on vectors? Attempting to write up a small linear-algebra library and lists look like a lot of overhead for random access. 18:52:58 Shamwow_: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_sequen.htm 18:53:32 Shamwow_: also http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_arrays.htm 18:54:05 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:54:16 -!- cads [n=max@c-24-30-55-172.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:54:29 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 18:54:59 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@e179125099.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 18:55:28 Shamwow_, there are many such libraries that you may want to inspect the source code of. 18:55:50 (and how is that more overhead than any other high-level language?) 18:56:05 This is mostly for the sake of learning, I know of other libraries I could pull 18:56:34 Shamwow_: for a less formal introduction to sequence operations, see chapter 11 of http://l1sp.org/pcl/ 18:57:15 Running through a linked-list to reach the nth element many times is just more inefficient... afaik. I was hoping I could streamline a bit by using an array. 18:57:33 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@85.4.220.156] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 18:57:35 thanks! 18:58:23 Shamwow_: yes, it is inefficient. For random access, you should use an array or a hashtable. 19:00:15 tagac [n=user@154.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:00:57 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.87.176] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:02:24 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has joined #lisp 19:02:27 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:02:31 NNshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-139.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:02:44 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:14:29 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:18:10 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-179.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:20:28 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:20:51 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-43.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:22:06 <_YKY_> Anyone familiar with using Paul Graham's macros for continuation? 19:22:06 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:22:27 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:22:54 _YKY_: not grahams, but there are some fairly good implementations around (such as arnesi and something in the dwim project) 19:22:54 <_YKY_> I need to #' a function defined by =defun 19:23:06 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-60.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:23:17 infrared` [n=infrared@94.78.187.226] has joined #lisp 19:23:28 <_YKY_> I'm using CLISP 19:23:36 hi 19:23:53 _YKY_: you probably want to find the name of the function his macro is defining (try expanding it) 19:24:01 -!- infrared` [n=infrared@94.78.187.226] has left #lisp 19:26:56 _YKY_: it looks like the name is going to be "=what-ever-you-named-the-function" (from page 267 of onlisp) 19:27:22 <_YKY_> I see... let me try that 19:29:04 _YKY_, you'll be better off with arnesi, frankly, that implements a full CL-in-CL CPS transform 19:30:07 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:30:34 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:30:44 Shamwow: my fibonacci.lisp has nifty one-liner matrix transposition and such when using linked-lists for matrices (I don't know who invented that trick though - must be old as linked lists) 19:32:19 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:32:34 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:32:34 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:32:40 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-0-209.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:33:07 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.127] has joined #lisp 19:33:10 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:33:32 -!- ol3 [n=user@82.113.121.154] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:33:37 <_YKY_> How do I use arnesi for continuation? 19:34:24 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-92-91.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:34:48 -!- [Jackal]_ [n=manish@118.94.85.127] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:35:33 _YKY_ : arnesi has reasonable docs:->http://common-lisp.net/project/bese/arnesi.html 19:36:08 but looking now, apparently not on the continuations stuff 19:36:18 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.127] has quit [Client Quit] 19:36:25 -!- beach` is now known as beach 19:36:39 Good evening! 19:36:50 marioxcc [n=user@201.132.49.49] has joined #lisp 19:36:53 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 19:36:56 _YKY_: its pretty straight forward though, and if you read stuff on call/cc you should mostly be able to wing it 19:37:06 -!- marioxcc [n=user@201.132.49.49] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:37:23 marioxcc [n=user@201.132.49.49] has joined #lisp 19:37:46 _YKY_: you might check out http://bc.tech.coop/blog/050731.html 19:37:51 <_YKY_> I can't find the arnesi reference on call/cc 19:38:19 _YKY_: http://common-lisp.net/project/bese/docs/arnesi/html/Automatically_Converting_a_Subset_of_Common_Lisp_to_CPS.html 19:38:46 _YKY_: that is kindof the nitty gritty of it though 19:39:16 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:40:50 _YKY_: also http://gameylisp.blogspot.com/2006/09/arnesi-continuations.html 19:44:21 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:44:57 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:45:14 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@71-34-77-216.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:46:09 nipra [n=nipra@122.169.80.60] has joined #lisp 19:46:35 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:48:29 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:49:05 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:49:08 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-57-73.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 19:49:17 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:49:36 jasber [n=bjasper@64.241.37.140] has joined #lisp 19:50:43 Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:46 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 19:52:46 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:53:22 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:56:37 quasimodo [n=quassel@142.59.200.239] has joined #lisp 19:57:15 -!- quasimodo [n=quassel@142.59.200.239] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:58:21 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:59:23 lasts [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 20:03:20 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:45 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.169.80.60] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:03:46 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:03:58 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:04:20 nipra [n=nipra@122.169.80.60] has joined #lisp 20:08:00 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:11:06 bunz [n=bunz@unaffiliated/bunz] has joined #lisp 20:12:26 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:13:08 claudio [n=claudio@190.19.180.183] has joined #lisp 20:13:13 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:14:31 gonzojive [n=red@171.67.168.34] has joined #lisp 20:14:55 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:16:00 ropert [n=user@CPE00222d12ee72-CM00222d12ee6e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:16:01 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:16:34 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:16:42 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has joined #lisp 20:17:40 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 20:18:13 -!- gonzojive [n=red@171.67.168.34] has quit [Client Quit] 20:18:41 -!- nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:19:39 -!- ropert [n=user@CPE00222d12ee72-CM00222d12ee6e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:20:38 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:21:36 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:22:11 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:22:29 -!- knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has left #lisp 20:22:31 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 20:23:13 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@217.18.135.36] has quit [] 20:24:36 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.169.80.60] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:24:50 nipra [n=nipra@122.169.80.60] has joined #lisp 20:24:57 -!- claudio [n=claudio@190.19.180.183] has quit [Client Quit] 20:28:33 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:28:48 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:28:51 -!- vsync_ is now known as vsync 20:30:06 http://mercury.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/humour/sys286.notes 20:30:25 Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:26 lol, i just got the "we wrapped LET in WITHOUT-INTERRUPTS" one from "fortune" and found the whole file 20:32:11 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 20:32:28 -!- r0bby_ [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:32:59 *Fare* remarks that he has been a happy customer of arnesi's continuation for driving a green-threads-on-continuation based transactional distributed computation farmer (philip-jose) 20:33:17 What's the syntax for defining a generic function (i.e. c++ templates) that take types like 'vector or 'list as arguments? 20:33:41 something like (defun (('vector v) ('list lst)) ...) ?? 20:33:44 -!- jasber [n=bjasper@64.241.37.140] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:35:07 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:36:13 (defmethod foo ((x vector) (y list)) ...) 20:36:15 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 20:37:40 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.169.80.60] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:37:46 do all defmethod's need a matching defgeneric? 20:37:52 Shamwow: nothing to do with C++ templates 20:38:20 nipra [n=nipra@122.169.80.60] has joined #lisp 20:38:44 Shamwow_: no, you dont *have* to define a defgeneric 20:39:40 when would a defgeneric make sense? If I don't I get a warning about the 'implicit' declaration of the defmethod 20:39:40 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:39:54 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:40:16 Shamwow_: defgenerics are for defining interfaces you want someone else to fill in or add extra implementations to (for the most part) 20:40:25 Shamwow_, defgeneric makes sense if you use non-standard gf options. 20:40:46 and/or want to eschew those style-warnings. 20:40:47 or even standard gf options 20:40:59 non-default. 20:41:06 Shamwow_: you might wish to read http://gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html 20:42:15 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:42:23 bobbysmith007: I had just skimmed through it and didn't absorb the info about when/where to defgeneric for my methods 20:42:26 Thanks 20:42:34 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:45:29 -!- p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:45:35 just to solidify an example - I'd like an inner-product method for vector*vector, matrix*vector, and matrix*matrix... should I (defgeneric inner-product (sequence sequence)) and then (defmethod inner-product ((v vector) (m matrix))), etc.? 20:45:44 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 20:49:06 -!- morganb` [n=user@wsip-98-188-196-29.ga.at.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:49:47 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:50:38 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-253-17.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:50:53 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 20:52:33 ol3 [n=user@82.113.121.145] has joined #lisp 20:53:16 TDT [n=dthole@254.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:32 Shamwow_: that sounds pretty reasonable to me 20:53:42 fantastic, my common lisp presentation was approved for Iowa Code Camp. 20:53:52 francogrex [n=user@81.253.3.242] has joined #lisp 20:54:22 Hey all. I'm outside the country, doing lisp 20:54:29 bobbysmith007: I think it's starting to sink in. (new to lisp, new to irc...) 20:55:19 Shamwow_: thats cool :), alot of these concepts take some time to sink in 20:56:02 francogrex: That's pretty ambiguous when it comes down to this is a international chat room and you may find someone here from your country. 20:56:43 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:57:38 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:58:14 anyone from belgium then? 20:58:32 or France? 20:58:57 I know some people here are from France. 21:00:00 Lisp is everywhere really. Today I was working on a cool project involving the integration of a C program within lisp to help read CSV files mush faster and efficient 21:00:08 -!- Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:00:35 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:00:36 read the csv files from C or from lisp? 21:00:39 Administrator_ [n=Administ@c-98-220-107-98.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:45 -!- shiva8 [n=Administ@c-98-220-107-98.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:00:45 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 21:01:05 The C function reads the CSV files and spits the results into CL 21:01:24 Ah, I just used farecsv personally for my csv-parsing needs. 21:02:50 It's not optimal yet, I'll work on it a little more. TDT: I have several CSV lisp functions, they are all ok, but the C one is supposed to be much more flexible and faster (ex: will output the results read into vectors directly etc) 21:03:01 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:03:06 what is farecsv? 21:03:26 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-163-6.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:03:52 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 21:03:54 It's a library fare made (he's in this room) that I found the easiest of many to use. 21:04:24 TDT: my fare-csv thingie? 21:04:26 thanks 21:04:32 maybe a link to it? (or google will do?) ok it's getting late, need to go now. 21:04:59 it used to suck, I recently propped it up to be better than other CL libraries after reading the "standard" that had settled in the meantime. 21:05:07 Fare: Yeah, we corresponded by email - you worked on it a bit to fit some of the edge cases I had with it 21:05:10 Fare, yes would like to try it. Can it read the resukts directly into vectors of lists? 21:05:21 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:05:27 http://www.cliki.net/fare-csv 21:05:31 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-233-199.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:03 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:06:03 francogrex, you mean using (coerce ... 'vector) ? 21:06:19 -!- TDT [n=dthole@254.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has left #lisp 21:06:27 TDT [n=dthole@254.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:34 dang wrong button. 21:06:46 Fare: well What's i'm doing now is directly into vectors by using cl_vector without using coerce I think coerce is costly 21:07:00 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:07:17 did you time it? if the csv parsing is in your critical path, I think you've got a problem indeed. 21:07:32 one possibility is vector-push-extend if you want to stay only in lisp 21:07:54 TDT: you may have been the one to trigger the rewrite, then 21:08:04 Fare, I have files with Billions of data long and wide 21:08:22 Fare: Dunno, was some months ago..redmine data and all that IIRC 21:08:22 how many lines? 21:08:47 my gmail says you did it -- thanks. 21:09:10 many, really uncountable 21:09:27 a billion or more 21:10:01 ok bye for now. Thanks for the link. I'll try it 21:10:15 -!- francogrex [n=user@81.253.3.242] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:11:15 francogrex: instead of calling fare-csv:read-csv-stream, you can manually loop and call fare-csv:read-csv-line, putting the result in a vector 21:11:15 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:11:40 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:11:44 how does one specify that the arguments to a defmethod should be arrays of particular dimensions? i.e. (defmethod matrix-function (mat (array 3 3)))??? 21:12:16 but yes if that file is THAT big, you should time it and a C interface might make sense (or then again not). 21:12:44 i find it extremely unlikely that a c interface would be the bottle-neck 21:12:53 (i.e. if you save 10 minutes out of 5 days of computation, you might have spent your time better otherwise) 21:12:55 i've handled files with millions of lines in python 21:13:12 so i'd guess lisp can do it too 21:13:13 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-183-99-177.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:13:34 err, i find it extremely unlikely that one would need to use a c extension 21:13:40 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:53 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:03 once again, beware premature optimization 21:14:14 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:14:32 Shamwow_: You can't (at least not in standard CL) 21:15:01 you can check that as the first operation within the method if you like. 21:15:26 herep xach? 21:15:37 gonzojive [n=red@171.67.175.40] has joined #lisp 21:15:39 *herep Xach? 21:16:13 (herep #\Xach) 21:16:50 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 21:17:07 Thanks, Fare. Has anyone used sb-posix:lockf or can show me code that makes use of it? 21:17:29 I grepped in my site directory but couldn't find anything. 21:18:24 as in (sb-posix:open ...) => 7 then (sb-posix:lockf 7 sb-posix:f-lock 1000) ? 21:18:56 if you want to be slightly more portable, you may consider iolib or osicat 21:19:48 Ah, that actually helped a good deal. Thanks, Fare. :) 21:19:58 How's XCVB coming today? 21:20:04 redline6561: man 2 lockf 21:20:20 ol3` [n=user@82.113.106.81] has joined #lisp 21:21:11 fe[nl]ix: Thanks. I was a bit confused about how to use it sensibly from lisp I think I've got what I need. Also, I get no man entry for lockf in section 2. :( 21:21:11 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:21:32 redline6561: It's in section 3. 21:21:42 (try `man -k lockf') 21:21:50 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:22:16 Adlai: Good trick. Thank you, sir. 21:22:36 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:22:41 redline6561: No problem, madame. 21:22:46 *Adlai* ducks 21:23:08 Adlai: Haha. Err...yeah. It's okay. Get it all the time. 21:23:17 newdevide [n=kenan@88.238.45.48] has joined #lisp 21:23:37 redline: XCVB can already replace ASDF, if you're ready to sacrifice speed to determinism. 21:23:49 do i need to install sbcl seperately from clbuild 21:24:04 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:24:04 dunno if I should work first on speed or decentralized dependencies. 21:24:09 good night 21:24:11 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@77.6.194.247] has quit ["leaving"] 21:24:19 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:24:31 newdevide: clbuild should be able to compile SBCL for you 21:24:32 lockf is in section 3 for me. 21:24:37 *p_l* gave up on university's copy of ACL. 5.0? 21:24:38 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:24:40 flock is in section 2 21:24:55 i tried "./clbuild install sbcl" but it just downloaded it 21:24:58 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:25:01 quick poll -- what's the barrier to adoption of XCVB? 21:25:03 <_YKY_> Can I use comma in a #' ? 21:25:18 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:25:20 Warning: Cannot find an executable for implementation sbcl 21:25:20 invalid command sbcl, try --help for help 21:25:22 _YKY_: as long as it's within a backquote. 21:25:25 _YKY_ if that #' is in a ` 21:25:34 <_YKY_> I see... 21:25:41 -!- Alice_I_W [i=stepnem@server1.bshellz.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:25:43 -!- tagac [n=user@154.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has left #lisp 21:25:53 Alice_I_W [i=stepnem@server1.bshellz.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:22 newdevide: you need to have a CL implementation that can compile SBCL available first. Maybe get one of the precompiled SBCL binaries, which may be -very- slightly out-of-date, and then try compiling a new SBCL with clbuild. 21:26:54 can't clisp compile sbcl, these days? 21:27:29 speaking of which, didn't Xof say he achieved determinism in compiling fasls across implementations? 21:27:52 Fare: what would nondeterminism be in this case? 21:27:54 do i also need some programs like gcc, make etc. ? 21:28:06 Adlai, I suspect source-info recording the date. 21:29:53 indeed under debug 0 I get identical files... 21:29:58 -!- phf` [n=user@host.icnfull.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:30:18 why would anyone need to know the date in the source-info? 21:30:28 wouldn't a checksum of the contents be better? 21:30:55 tetraedr [n=krash@79.135.223.170] has joined #lisp 21:32:34 -!- Administrator_ [n=Administ@c-98-220-107-98.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:32:35 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:33:00 shiva8 [n=Administ@c-98-220-107-98.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:54 Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-34-182.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:35:05 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:35:56 rvirding [n=chatzill@h52n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:36:05 -!- colin_ [n=colin@118-169-41-25.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:36:20 colin_ [n=colin@118-169-32-189.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:37 Adlai: compile-from-clean and compile-from-image yielding different meanings 21:37:39 -!- gonzojive [n=red@171.67.175.40] has quit [] 21:37:55 newdevide, yes, you need gcc to compile sbcl 21:38:27 Fare: sorry, you lost me here... are these terms relating to building SBCL? 21:38:47 Adlai: building any lisp system 21:39:02 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:39:38 -!- ol3 [n=user@82.113.121.145] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:39:45 if you e.g. depend on macroexpansiontime side-effects (setf in macro body) compilation from clean in asdf will work but not compilation from non-clean (where asdf loads the fasl but the side-effect doesn't happen) 21:40:00 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2C7EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:40:08 so bugs may lurk and happen some time, and you compile from clean always to avoid it. 21:40:42 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:41:04 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:41:08 ah, I see. This is the problem cfasls are supposed to solve, right? 21:41:31 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:41:36 if by "solve" you mean "make so obvious that the software maintainer will have to fix it", then yes. 21:42:00 it's not like the bugs will magically go away 21:42:00 Oh, a pony! 21:42:53 oh, I think it's reasonable for relying on macroexpansion-time side-effects to have "Undefined Consequences" 21:43:17 no they don't. They happen at macroexpansion time. 21:43:29 And they may be useful in correctly macroexpanding the rest of the file. 21:43:44 They are just NOT GUARANTEED to either be there or not in latter files. 21:43:54 so you shouldn't depend on them being there 21:44:01 and XCVB enforces that. 21:44:08 danlei [n=user@pD9E2C7EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:09 why would you need them, though? 21:44:19 -!- male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [] 21:44:19 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:44:28 Adlai: because you're too lazy to expand into an eval-when that does it? 21:44:38 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:44:42 heh 21:44:47 and too ignorant to understand that so doing you're breaking incremental compilation? 21:45:12 I've had to fix a few bugs like that in our codebase. 21:46:33 Yuuhi`` [i=benni@p5483FDB6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:40 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp120.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 21:46:41 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:47:22 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:47:33 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust936.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 21:48:08 seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:03 dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:49:31 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590f895b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:49:42 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 21:50:06 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-147-40-39.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:52:42 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-69-181-45-251.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:42 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:53:30 -!- mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6FCF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:55:19 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:55:47 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:56:25 I'm already using xcvb-master as an interactive replacement to ASDF. 21:57:36 stderr redirection seems to interact badly with SLIME, though: all XCVB output goes to the *inferior-lisp* window instead of the repl window. 21:57:43 s/window/buffer/ 21:58:17 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 21:58:50 and interleaving of messages seems badly done. 21:59:09 run-program is a crock. I need to reimplement it someday. Just not now... 21:59:12 Fare: so it works from the repl now? That's great :D 21:59:13 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483B8F5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:59:18 sykopomp, it does! 21:59:57 sykopomp, but go to *inferior-lisp* for failures, unless you know the magic slime recipe. 22:01:14 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-35.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 22:01:17 I'll give it a shot tonight, then! :) 22:01:27 Fare: how was the last lisp meeting, btw? 22:01:30 fare: sounds a nice project, keep at it 22:01:58 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:02:17 just checking out the web page 22:02:20 Fare: so is it even now good enough to switch or would waiting be better? 22:02:25 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:03:39 newdevide, I have switched already 22:04:07 newdevide: depends on how many / which libraries you're using. 22:04:31 I suppose the next big thing, before I add more features, will be to try to get XCVB support committed upstream. 22:04:46 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 22:04:46 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:05:03 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:05:30 -!- numeromancer [n=tschaeff@dramail.com] has left #lisp 22:07:15 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:07:42 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:08:26 fare how hopeful are you of 1.0 by the end of year? 22:09:25 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:09:39 and when it says 'not very user-friendly in its failure modes' does this happen a lot or is failure out to edge cases? 22:12:54 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:15:09 'not very user-friendly in its failure modes', given coding dictionary, probably means "when it breaks, expect explosions"? 22:15:28 redblue [i=star@ppp050.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:15:50 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:18:01 -!- shiva8 [n=Administ@c-98-220-107-98.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:18:20 shiva8 [n=Administ@c-98-220-107-98.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:57 well just have to hope it doesn't break that often, i'll keep an eye on that one 22:20:26 will* 22:20:54 hopefully they can get it to 1.0 22:21:15 1.0 never seems to get reached that often by projects 22:21:54 maybe you need a marketing department for that 22:22:36 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:22:43 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0D5F5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:46 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:23:04 Guthur, I'm still hopeful of a 1.0 by the end of year 22:23:22 and when I say "not very user-friendly" I mean "only slightly better than ASDF" 22:23:24 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust936.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has left #lisp 22:23:41 just you try having some error in your ASDF defsystem... 22:23:51 hehe, ya the bar isn't too high in that regard 22:24:20 ok, so what I mean is that when there's an error, XCVB with give you an error message, a backtrace, a repeat error message. 22:24:30 only some experience of ASDF, not the most pleasant of lisp orientated activities 22:24:33 And you can email me if you don't understand what's going on. 22:24:36 -!- tetraedr [n=krash@79.135.223.170] has quit ["    (xchat 2.4.5  )"] 22:25:06 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:25:23 though I try to detect errors early enough to at least provide you with an error message about where you made a mistake, not a far consequence of it 22:25:37 gosub80 [i=x@host252-158-dynamic.51-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 22:26:04 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:26:09 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 22:26:49 so yes, when it breaks, it screams at you profusely -- but that's the point, I prefer early profuse screams that tell me something needs to be fixed to kluges that kind of work except when they don't and give you no useful error message. 22:26:50 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:26:58 -!- Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-34-182.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 22:27:11 kk, keep up the good work, i'll give it a whirl sometime 22:27:42 give me feedback when it explodes at your face! 22:28:03 will do, i'll explode in you face 22:28:08 hehe only joking 22:28:34 Guthur: better use a dumb terminal, and certainly not a laptop for that! 22:28:44 htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 22:29:02 the explosion could trigger the battery 22:29:19 secondary's 22:29:22 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:30:27 Guthur: say that after we find you sterillized by LiIon/LiPoly explosion :P 22:32:26 i have fears about using a laptop on its name sake 22:32:27 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:32:33 ie my lap 22:32:58 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:33:10 keeps the legs warm i suppose 22:33:35 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-174-63.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 22:36:38 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-183-99-177.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:38 just got AIMA today 22:36:44 and? 22:36:47 why do these books have to be so big 22:36:53 hehe 22:36:58 i weighs a ton 22:37:21 -!- no_mind [n=orion@122.163.250.15] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:37:35 not sure yet only opened it, my lecturer said it is a good book 22:37:57 he apparently edited a book with Norvig 22:38:40 i'd like to pick a section to concentrate on and use it in my project 22:38:56 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A01E5.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:39:22 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-2-130.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 22:39:25 aima? 22:39:31 minion: aima? 22:39:31 aima: AIMA is Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach, http://aima.cs.berkeley.edu 22:39:35 ah, AI: Modern Approach 22:39:54 green version 22:40:11 *p_l* prefers PAIP for now 22:40:35 mcspiff [n=user@142.177.75.91] has joined #lisp 22:41:14 that was on my list as well 22:41:33 all in the library, i love university libraries 22:42:19 yeah 22:42:30 pity that mine closes at 2200 :/ 22:42:37 I hope the new one will be 24/7 xD 22:43:25 ours closes at 2200 as well 22:43:57 library -> comp sci -> gym for showers is the usual all night migration here 22:44:33 mcspiff: hmm... I'll have to check if the gym has showers available early in the morning... then find a place to drop asleep 22:44:38 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [No route to host] 22:44:57 -!- gosub80 [i=x@host252-158-dynamic.51-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [] 22:45:25 then I wouldn't have to get accommodation and I would have 24/7 internet access 22:46:41 in theory, I could try hiding under desks of less used classrooms... 22:47:01 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-174-63.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has left #lisp 22:47:42 p_l: we have a card which unlocks the doors 22:47:51 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-179.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:48:13 p_l: in theory, I could go out, and sleep in one of the computer rooms... 22:48:48 madnificent: I have the same thing :D 22:49:08 now, where I would stash clothes... 22:49:15 don't you have lockers? 22:49:38 hehe just read the bit about the chess program, 'progress in computer game-playing has come from ever more powerful hardware' 22:49:41 we have lockers, and you don't even need to rent them... just pop 2 euros of warranty in there, and you get a key 22:49:52 of course IBM wanted to say that 22:49:53 madnificent: maybe there are some in gym, but I doubt they would have enough 22:50:16 p_l: how many clothes do you need? 22:50:19 gonzojive [n=red@171.66.81.134] has joined #lisp 22:50:56 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:50:56 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:51:14 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:51:18 shrewd1 [n=arn@student-181.wireless.latrobe.edu.au] has joined #lisp 22:51:54 haha. I guess if I find some good locker, a place to wash clothes and get to dump some of my stuff somewhere easily accessed, I could survive without accommodation xD 22:53:53 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:54:20 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:56:18 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:11 dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:51 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:58:27 sykopomp` [n=root@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 22:59:16 -!- sykopomp [n=root@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:59:19 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 23:00:27 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:02:25 -!- jeti [n=jeti@p548EFA25.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 23:03:05 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:04:30 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:15 -!- shrewd1 [n=arn@student-181.wireless.latrobe.edu.au] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:10:40 -!- newdevide [n=kenan@88.238.45.48] has left #lisp 23:13:01 -!- sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has quit [Read error: 13 (Permission denied)] 23:13:01 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:13:21 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:26 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:13:30 p_l: people have done it here before. I know a student who explained to security he was going to be homeless for a bit. The morning gaurd change would bring him a coffee. Same thing if they realize you're working all night. They only really check for a 24 hour pass if they see you coming in the building after hours 23:14:50 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 23:17:17 p_l: Money issues for no rent, or just trying to save money? 23:18:04 or for fun 23:18:17 mcspiff: Most buildings with keycards are 24/7 here, the others have extra keypads or have separated internal areas that are only accessible for cleared people 23:18:29 manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6FB71.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:35 I haven't seen a single security person, though xD 23:19:03 it looks like we don't have the old tradition of internal police force like in poland :D 23:19:38 in poland, universities (at least the older ones), are autonomic entities inside the country 23:19:44 araujo: good point, but not sure how this would be fun, heh. 23:19:58 TDT: similar fun to trying to travel to japan without money 23:20:00 p_l, same here 23:20:13 you can live forever inside one if you want 23:20:30 *p_l* heard once a story of policemen getting kicked out by students. *legally* 23:20:39 yes, it happens 23:20:56 and they can't do anything 23:22:21 heh, for a lot of the TAs, not sure how many can stay here full time..most offices have at least 4-6 TAs crammed into them. For security, it's not a huge issue. The library isn't open 24h here either, closes at 2 AM or something and reopens at like 6. For showering..there are 2 gyms pretty close walking distance to do both at. 23:22:40 -!- ol3` [n=user@82.113.106.81] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:23:21 It's considerably easier for myself to get away with this than others if I wanted to do so..heh. 23:24:24 my department (together with Chemistry, Geosciences and Maths) got a kitchen and if one wished to, it wouldn't be hard to grab a place to sleep if you are high enough... 23:24:41 haha 23:24:56 with autonomy , you just can sleep there anywhere 23:25:24 araujo: right, except this is UK, not Poland. Second, i'm just a lowly second year student 23:25:47 Well, I'm a grad student, but also staff at the university I attend, from 5 at night til 7:30 the next morning the room would be mine, and there's a couch. The gym is within a 5m walk from the office, and the parking area is within a 5m walk for storing stuff. 23:26:13 *p_l* ponders if that proffessor at Warsaw Institute of Technology is still alive, or the just didn't find his body yet 23:26:16 p_l what are you studying? 23:26:24 Guthur: University of Aberdeen 23:26:31 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.194.210] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 23:26:51 where might have been my next question hehe 23:26:53 got rejection letter from MIT and chickened out before giving papers for MEXT's scholarship 23:27:18 Guthur: Computing Science & Artificial Intelligence, MSci w/ Industrial Placement (5 year course) 23:27:43 cool i'm doing a MSc Computing with intelligent systems 23:27:43 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:28:09 -!- gonzojive [n=red@171.66.81.134] has quit [] 23:28:17 university of ulster 23:28:19 heh. MSc. Lucky. Though I decided I'm looking for PhD straight after studies :) 23:28:38 i hope to do that 23:28:47 it i can get a scholarship 23:29:14 only going to do it if i can get paid 23:29:19 Guthur: try for MEXT? they have graduate/postgraduate scholarships if you are young enough 23:29:30 nah i'm not that young 23:29:52 29 23:30:03 i was working for a number of years 23:30:08 *p_l* plans of trying for it, this time. Sure, 3 years in utterly foreign country, but the adventure! xD 23:30:40 aye it would be good experience 23:31:15 Japan is about as foreign as you can get 23:31:21 cool place though 23:32:11 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:32:13 i'll go anywhere i can get paid to do research 23:32:24 failing that its back to the dole or work 23:32:42 *p_l* sometimes wishes that he stayed at work back in poland 23:33:00 nah uni life is far better 23:33:05 being poor is crap though 23:33:08 it was fun 2 months, but I guess I've got a strange fetish for heavy iron IT stuff 23:33:37 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 23:33:38 Guthur: What didn't you like about work that you feel is better from research? 23:33:44 ya it can seem like all you do is read at uni 23:33:53 thats what i seem to be doing all the time 23:34:29 i worked in the financial sector 23:34:35 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@pD9E6FCF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:34:45 its soul destroying, i hated it 23:34:53 Ah. 23:35:10 its funding my study though 23:35:10 Guthur: I was a lowly junior admin, or Cable Monkey in practice ;-) 23:35:27 *sysadmin 23:35:28 i saved up a bit of money, now investing it in myself 23:35:47 Yeah, I work in IT at a university, and..I don't know, I mean - I also like the thought of research, the thing that worries me is funding overall. I don't need a lot of money to survive on, but through grants (especially competitive ones) it can be hard to make ends meet. 23:35:48 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:36:04 p_l that might have been more fun, i maintained 30+ year old mainframe software for a large american insurer 23:36:06 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:36:08 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441179.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:36:10 and contracts would be even worse I feel...but would lead to better money in a fairly easy manner. 23:36:39 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441179.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:37:01 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441179.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:37:10 there is some research that is quite well funded 23:37:12 Guthur: heh, I only had to deal with writing Excel XML from Python and taking care of Sun/IBM + occasional x86 or Alpha boxes 23:37:30 i had to do COBOL, and IBM assembler 23:38:01 and even then i most did analysis, very little actual coding, it was crap 23:38:42 just reading loads of ancient software trying to figure out insurance business rules 23:38:50 Guthur: yeah, some - insanely over here too..depends on what you get into. 23:40:20 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:40:27 Guthur: over here, everything is in Java 23:40:33 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:40:45 i can chose my language hehe 23:40:50 now that is 23:40:59 funnily enough, the only time I got response to my CV (even if it was rejection) when I sent it to university job board was from AI research team 23:42:08 thats the thing my CV is crap, my only experience is in an industry i don't want to be in with languages i never want to know 23:42:56 Guthur: heh. 23:42:56 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:43:20 i'm happy now though, i like the course 23:43:35 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:43:41 going to be very poor for the next year though 23:44:03 do you have a placement on you course 23:44:08 Fare: So that would imply that Xach is quite a character. 23:44:16 oh ya i see you said so 23:44:32 Guthur: between 3rd and 4th year of the course (bringing it to 5 years) 23:45:00 do you have a MSc at the end 23:45:22 Guthur: nope, only "MSci" which is slightly different (without thesis) 23:45:46 p_l ah, thats called a post-grad diploma here 23:46:10 p_l i do that for semester 1 and 2, then do a research project(thesis) next summer 23:46:28 here it's undergrad but with "honours", similar to "BSci Honours", both opening access to PhD 23:46:48 and there's a project for the honours part, just not the same kind as with thesis, afaik 23:47:06 p_l sound a good enough course 23:47:29 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:51 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:48:45 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 23:49:11 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 23:49:31 *Xach* is here but redline is not 23:50:11 -!- shiva8 [n=Administ@c-98-220-107-98.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:50:43 http://www.semiaccurate.com/2009/10/06/nvidia-kills-gtx285-gtx275-gtx260-abandons-mid-and-high-end-market/ <---- I honestly didn't expect that 23:52:44 wow 23:53:27 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 23:53:42 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.177.75.91] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:53:55 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:54:12 it actually looks like they might kill themselves off 23:55:20 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:56:29 alec [n=alec@pool-96-237-13-64.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:31 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:57:16 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:58:33 -!- exu0 [n=u@dslb-084-056-138-192.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 23:59:32 i have to admit i have been out of the loop with gfx hardware, but it seems like only a while ago that nvidia was kicking ass with its tech