00:02:49 Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:32 -!- roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 00:07:37 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 00:07:54 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B169912.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:09:09 -!- rotzak|work [n=rotzak|w@70.98.39.250] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:10:36 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-93-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 00:11:18 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-84-210.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:11:21 hum. so I guess the only asdf feature really missing from xcvb is the ability to build in-image... 00:11:57 (and even then, you can use the xcvb to asdf converter to achieve this result if wanted) 00:12:03 How about Zealot-Oriented-Programming? 00:12:20 emacs-dwim: You need an effective evangelist for that 00:12:35 Otherwise it's Smug-Weenie-Oriented Programming ;) 00:12:35 Where a programmer uses the best tool for the (programmer's) mind. 00:12:52 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B157.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:13:08 but it seems not everyone can attain to smug-weeniedom... 00:13:34 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-93-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:09 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-30-58.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:15:51 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 00:16:05 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:18:34 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:36 *Fare* realizes he makes plenty of use of multiple inheritance in xcvb. 00:21:19 -!- pr_ [n=pr@p579CA9E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:23:15 -!- jlf [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:26:43 Programming with C after knowing Lisp is like being Napoleon exiled to St. Helena. 00:27:04 if you're Napoleon, I'd rather you be exiled, thanks. 00:27:23 I dunno, Lisp could probably use its own Napoleon 00:27:25 Eh, Napoleon wasn't all that bad by the standards of the day. 00:27:36 Fare: because you don't like competition? 00:27:40 did he achieve a megadeath? 00:27:51 *Makoryu* looks at Haskell, Scala, and, er, Apple 00:28:17 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.254.35] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:28:37 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C60F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:47 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483FB95.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:28:56 in any case, I invite CLers to give a try to XCVB on their large or less large projects. 00:29:07 quotemstr: Have you gotten suckered into working in C because you're trying to improve your Lisp of choice yet? 00:29:26 nyef: ouch 00:29:26 nyef: No, more like my application can't afford to lug around a 30mb runtime. 00:29:29 :-) 00:29:40 Besides, aren't all the *good* Lisp implementations self-hosting? :-) 00:29:43 quotemstr, clisp and ecl have a smaller footprint than that 00:29:44 Fare: Dare I ask if XCVB is likely to be able to build SBCL? 00:30:01 nyef: not right now, but conceivably could. 00:30:02 Fare: Trust, but still on the order of megabytes. The program in C is under 100k. 00:30:19 actually, that would be a great use for xcvb. 00:30:33 quotemstr: and libc? 00:30:56 quotemstr, if you don't count the megabytes of C runtime but you do count the megabytes of lisp runtime... 00:31:19 Find me a Lisp runtime that comes with Windows. :-) 00:31:34 quotemstr: It's somewhere in the networking stack, if memory serves. 00:31:36 Fare: Hey, if it was possible to use any package system to upgrade your Lisp, that would make the Haskell community extremely jealous 00:32:02 And then they would patch GHC so you could do the same thing with it. So for me it's win-win... 00:32:14 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:32:15 nyef: actually, one of my next xcvb projects might be "automatic brute force pruning of dependencies". Could well apply to building SBCL. 00:32:30 otherwise, you could give a try with ADG. 00:32:43 so, build a .asd, use a2x... 00:33:12 afterwards, you could build the first pass incrementally and the second pass in parallel. 00:33:33 Makoryu, "any package system" ? 00:33:40 *nyef* wonders how long it will be before he finally breaks down and hacks up a complete no-runtime SBCL. 00:33:53 no-runtime ? 00:34:07 i.e. rewrite the GC in LAP? 00:34:15 nyef: IIRC, SBCL can dump the current process image into an executable, so there's no "runtime" per se. 00:34:18 nyef: It's just huge. 00:34:30 Pretty much. Spit out an executable straight from genesis, no C compiler needed. 00:34:47 -!- HET2 [n=diman@80.3.31.126] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:34:51 nyef: That already exists. 00:34:57 I actually have proof-of-concept for a number of the pieces. 00:35:04 quotemstr: Not for SBCL it doesn't. 00:35:04 and/or have a tree-shaker to dump images without compiler and stuff 00:35:39 If a tree-shaker is eventually written for any of the major free lisp compilers, I will be deeply happy. 00:35:53 redline6561, lispworks has one. Possibly allegro. 00:35:57 oh, free. 00:36:06 I think I wouldn't be the only one. Though I acknowledge it is both non-trivial and not a priority. 00:36:11 uh, maybe ecl can do that. Thinlisp does. 00:36:12 Fare: yep. :) 00:36:26 when the topic comes up, jsnell says something like "i wrote one in a day and it didn't help as much as you might think" 00:36:45 Xach: the tree shaker or the lap gc? 00:36:46 I wrote one and there's no way I'm going to maintain one 00:36:53 *Xach* can't remember 00:36:59 Now, a tree shaker would be useful. 00:37:02 jsnell, hi! 00:37:08 Xach: I recall stumbling on that at some point. And admittedly I don't think large binaries is much of a big deal but it would still be nice to not have 30 mb hello worlds. :) 00:37:17 hi 00:37:23 jsnell: What made it so tricky to maintain? 00:37:46 Hrm. Thinlisp has no GC? 00:37:50 is anyone using SB-HEAPDUMP ? 00:37:59 quotemstr: Yeah, IIRC 00:38:23 quotemstr, I suppose you could run it with the boehm gc 00:38:25 So it's Thinlisp just a C code general that smells a little like Lisp? 00:38:39 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 00:39:31 -!- Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-33-112.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 00:39:47 it's easy to just walk the heap. but to actually get sensible tree shaking results, you need to handle a lot internal data structures properly 00:40:06 From the CRACL list, CMU AI at the G20 protests: http://www.flickr.com/photos/30686429@N07/3953914015/in/set-72157622330082619/ 00:40:10 And SBCL has some nasty internal data structures. 00:40:14 e.g. you need to know exactly where pcl keeps references to classes 00:40:16 jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 00:40:25 *nyef* shudders in memory of looking into how packages work... and the infodb. 00:40:53 and remember to ignore those references while walking the heap + cut them off before saving the image 00:40:58 and yes, the infodb is another similar one 00:41:16 jsnell: I suppose this is where I'm getting tripped up. That information shouldn't change too often, right? Note that I'm not saying that makes maintaining it more desirable. ;) 00:41:52 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 00:42:01 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:42:03 there's such special information in hundreds of places. any single one might not change too often, but the aggregate will 00:42:20 also, it doesn't help as much as you might think 00:42:23 ;-) 00:42:48 jsnell, because clos relies on runtime compilation so you need to keep the whole compiler around? 00:43:02 jsnell: Gotcha. And yuck. Thanks for the info. I appreciate that it doesn't help as much as you might think. I mostly mention it because I've always been impressed with the sizes Slava Pestov has managed to get on Factor binaries. 00:43:12 (hum, I suppose you could precompile all the stuff, then throw away the compiler) 00:43:16 no, you can precompile that stuff 00:43:35 but there's no guarantee that you've caught every other place that might need to compile at runtime 00:43:39 Precompile half of it, rely on the interpreter for the other half... 00:43:55 ... and still lose. 00:44:07 e.g. it used to be the case that a FFI call with insufficient declarations would cause compilation at every call 00:44:18 yuck 00:44:34 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 00:44:54 (the only sensible way is to basically just replace all the compiler entrypoints with stubs that signal a runtime error) 00:45:07 THe_BearJEW [n=the_bear@cpe-76-172-12-145.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:45:07 CL is bad at letting you analyze and maintain big pieces of code, I suppose. 00:45:19 Whereas now it requires passing in the alien function to call as a parameter so that the compiler doesn't know ahead of time what's up to cause it to require runtime compilation... 00:45:39 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 00:45:51 jsnell: That is indeed a sane approach. 00:46:12 http://www.cliki.net/teepeedee2 wow more cool web stuff on cliki every day 00:46:21 nyef: no, now it uses the interpreter for performance :-P 00:46:48 ... On an essentially-variable stack frame? 00:47:05 not sure what you mean 00:47:20 do many lispers build thier own databases in lisp itself? 00:47:20 Oh, right, I remember now, seeing the calls to the interpreter for doing deport/import. 00:47:29 right 00:48:18 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:48:47 THe_BearJEW, does the db has to implement ACID itself rather than delegate such to an underlying db? 00:49:12 THe_BearJEW: I don't think so. As far as web apps go there are a range of options available. CL-Prevalance, CL-Elephant and CL-SQL to name a few. 00:49:38 THe_BearJEW: And some like Postmodern. 00:49:45 hmm, rucksack? 00:49:53 the most lispy one with the best performance is http://cl-www.msi.co.jp/projects/manardb/api.html 00:50:22 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:52:45 c|mell: is that dev online from time to time? 00:53:06 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:53:45 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:54:11 *c|mell* developed it :) 00:54:28 Ah. So you're John Fremlin. Got it. 00:54:29 c|mell: then read your goddamned github :P 00:54:38 c|mell: talk to you later :) 00:55:03 *madnificent* heads to bed 00:55:54 sohum [n=sohum@unaffiliated/sohum] has joined #lisp 00:55:57 c|mell: that is, unless you're not ilitirit on github... 00:56:20 how do I get format to chop off the decimal part? ~,0f prints "999." 00:56:51 -!- drafael [n=tapio@118.90.136.43] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:57:03 hey madnificent, yes i am as well as vii -- you are talking about sheeple? no idea what it is :) 00:57:32 drafael [n=tapio@118.90.136.43] has joined #lisp 00:57:37 -!- drafael [n=tapio@118.90.136.43] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:57:37 *c|mell* is retiring his use of ilitirit because fuss pointed out that someone else is using that name on hackernews 00:57:54 TDT [n=dthole@254.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:11 g'evening everyone 00:59:50 is there something like %fun-type but to use with lexical environments? 01:00:02 -!- locci [n=nes@93.37.196.252] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 01:00:02 ugh. 01:00:08 i mean environment objects, like &env 01:00:23 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:07 or is there sbcl EVAL that takes an environment object? 01:01:32 weirdo: I'd start by looking in sb-cltl2... And you might be looking for something like eval-in-lexenv. 01:01:54 nyef, what i'm trying to do is get argument's type at macroexpansion time 01:02:14 (i know that macro can modify the type, and don't care) 01:02:18 whats postmodern? 01:02:26 (it's a matter of not pointing the gun at the foot) 01:02:27 marardb I just aded ot my blong last night 01:02:36 weirdo: Oh. Use defknown / deftransform. 01:02:42 I have to ge tdown basic lisp so I can start exploring these things 01:02:46 tpd2 looks sick 01:02:57 nyef, but that's cumbersome to use 01:03:05 araujo [n=moz@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 01:03:08 can a lisp on machine A query the variables and use the functions of a lisp on machine B? 01:03:09 THe_BearJEW: Postmodern is a library for working with PostgresQL databases. CL-SQL is the non-postgres specific equivalent. 01:03:29 I have heard that postgresql is A55sum 01:03:51 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:03:52 one more thing, i compiled sbcl from /root/some-path and meta-point doesn't work. is there some magic variable for pointing sbcl sources to a different location? 01:03:55 THe_BearJEW: if you set up IPC, you can do whatever you want :) 01:04:20 weirdo: Yes. The logical-pathname-translation or whatever it is for SYS:. 01:04:22 hmm, i'd better use setfacl(1) 01:05:23 weirdo: Have a look at (logical-pathname-translations "SYS"), and remember that it's setfable. 01:06:40 Demosthenes [n=demo@64.208.221.2] has joined #lisp 01:06:52 nyef, thank you :-) 01:07:33 -!- Monk1 [n=a@cpe-74-74-140-173.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:08:59 BLM tomorrow at NEU 01:09:01 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 01:13:47 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:15:29 ipc? 01:15:38 how do I get format to chop off the decimal part? ~,0f prints "999." 01:15:40 interprocess communication. 01:15:47 inter process communication? 01:15:50 communicat? 01:15:57 okk so 01:16:01 wait once that si setup then what 01:16:13 then you get your ponies. 01:16:26 clhs ~f 01:16:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cca.htm 01:16:35 sohum: Read carefully, it should be in there. 01:16:38 sohum: #'floor 01:17:34 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:19:17 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:20:30 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 01:21:00 nyef: "Then a sequence of digits, containing a single embedded decimal point" < doesn't make it sound as if there's any way to override that 01:21:04 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-ilxapddgsuhlaity] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:21:31 emacs-dwim: hm. ~/floor/ might work 01:21:41 no, wait, it won't 01:21:48 Fair enough, then. Floor the input argument instead? 01:22:11 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:22:20 yea, but I didn't want to do that. it's deep within a set of ~{~{s and such 01:22:35 ah well. 01:23:36 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 01:23:50 -!- pepone [n=pepone@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:24:25 *weirdo* downvoting people who mention Clojure on reddit for graet justice 01:24:49 why? 01:25:23 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:27:29 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:28:20 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C60F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:30:17 -!- quotemstr [n=quotemst@67.246.181.235] has quit ["Inconceivable!"] 01:30:43 -!- charliekilo [n=ck@24.144.224.87] has quit [] 01:30:53 -!- THe_BearJEW [n=the_bear@cpe-76-172-12-145.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:31:16 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 01:32:20 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.168.65] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:32:41 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:58 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.168.65] has joined #lisp 01:33:14 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:35:33 THe_BearJEW [n=the_bear@cpe-76-172-12-145.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:35:33 because they troll and evangelize cl users 01:36:01 -!- TDT [n=dthole@254.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has quit [] 01:44:02 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 01:44:11 I wish I had went to cmu and majored in lisp. 01:44:52 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@121.186.151.234] has quit ["to the village -- and beyond?"] 01:46:15 I was telling soem friends of friends in vegas Im an economics major 01:46:18 they said woa 01:46:21 you majored in comics 01:46:23 lol 01:46:34 fnny part is if I had, I might be richer 01:46:56 and happier? 01:46:58 go for the eyes boo, go for the eyes! 01:47:06 *weirdo* majors in hamsters 01:47:53 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:09 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.168.65] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:50:40 where do i get `dletf'? 01:51:51 emacs-dwim, write it 01:51:56 it's easy 01:52:31 weirdo pasted "DLETF for emacs-dwim" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87927 01:53:40 the symbol name «dletf» is used in contextl 01:54:02 ah, yes, i was reading that 2 days ago. 01:57:51 oop [n=Adium@c-66-56-7-192.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:09 -!- oop [n=Adium@c-66-56-7-192.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #lisp 01:58:16 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:08:07 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-30-58.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:20 weirdo: is there a fluid-flet? 02:10:39 emacs-dwim, well it is, since i wrote it 02:12:38 weirdo: for dynamic binding of function places? 02:14:29 similar to: (setf (symbol-function 'floor-inside-format-test) (lambda (float) (floor float))) 02:17:08 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:04 jlf [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 02:21:42 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177075091.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:37 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:25:42 emacs-dwim, yes! 02:27:06 weirdo: i must have the syntax wrong... 02:27:22 what the frak? emacs can't indent it properly 02:27:38 maybe it's slime-indentation's fault 02:28:03 weirdo annotated #87927 "for emacs-dwim" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87927#1 02:29:31 xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 02:30:55 weirdo: nice. 02:31:48 note that i've never found the use for this macro 02:31:52 s/the/a 02:38:11 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:39:10 weirdo: but it doesn't work for unbound #'foo 02:41:08 emacs-dwim, it's not supposed to 02:42:21 (defun symbol-function* (sym) (if (fboundp sym) (symbol-function sym) nil)) 02:42:56 (defun (setf symbol-function*) (value sym) (if (null value) (fmakunbound sym) (setf (symbol-function sym) value))) 02:47:04 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:47:23 weirdo: ok, i guess i was thinking of emacs' flet. thanks! 02:48:12 elisp is retarded 02:48:59 weirdo: yes, but i'm stuck with it until clim-org-mode is done. 02:49:27 yow, someone's writing a clim organizer? :) 02:49:45 it's vapourware on my org-agenda. 02:50:57 :-) 02:52:45 climacs-orglisp -- even better than the assembler version! 02:52:46 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:53:11 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 02:53:11 Is climacs at all usable? 02:53:25 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:53:44 define "at all usable" 02:54:19 Penggu [n=me@222.96.96.58.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:55:03 it's not emacs right now; i wish i had time to make a climacs backend interface to "emacs -batch" for the interim. 02:55:14 hi all. i can't seem to make a list of lists using any combination of quotes in front of each list: (defun *start-state* ((1 2 3 4 5 6 7) () ())) 02:55:39 '((1 2 3 4 5 6 7) () ()) 02:55:43 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 02:55:44 trying to make 1 list containing 3 lists... one having 1..7 and the other two empty (brahma / hanoi towers ) 02:56:28 hmm. i get: DEFUN: Invalid specialized parameter in method lambda list '((1 2 3 4 5 6 7) NIL NIL): ((1 2 3 4 5 6 7) NIL NIL) 02:57:38 doh, defvar, not defun 02:57:52 minion: tell Penggu about PCL 02:57:53 Penggu: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 02:58:09 ah, defparameter was the one we were using. no #%^#%^& wonder 02:59:46 Penggu: defparameter is better than defun for testing -- that way you don't have to (makunbound '*start-state*) every time you want to change it. 03:00:14 you mean better than defvar ? 03:00:21 s/defun/defvar 03:00:44 you don't have to makunbound, if you're using slime 03:00:45 infinite confusion loop 03:01:29 "GNU CLISP 2.41.1" 03:02:00 anyway, that defun/defparamater was my problem 03:02:06 clisp is an implementation, slime is an IDE 03:02:41 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:02:56 ah, im just using clisp's shell. not sure if that constitues an IDE... 03:04:41 marioxcc` [n=user@200.92.168.65] has joined #lisp 03:04:43 -!- marioxcc` [n=user@200.92.168.65] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:05:13 -!- THe_BearJEW [n=the_bear@cpe-76-172-12-145.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 03:06:11 what makes these newbies use CLISP? 03:06:20 lecturer 03:06:21 next they'll be claiming that lisp is slow 03:06:33 dead, even. 03:06:50 are you using microsoft windows? if not, there's no reason to use clisp 03:07:02 and even then, CCL is a better choice than CLISP 03:07:04 im ssh-ing to uni 03:07:11 linux 03:07:22 show uname -sm 03:07:33 Linux i686 03:07:45 stassats`: what do you do in slime? both the repl and C-x C-e leave my defvar'd variable unchanged. 03:08:07 emacs-dwim: C-M-x 03:08:24 Penggu, download sbcl binaries :) or compile it using clisp as a cross-compiler 03:08:56 don't bother and use clisp for your assignment 03:08:58 clisp has abysmal performance. my fastcgi library did 500 requests/s on SBCL on my old PC, while CLISP did 70/s 03:09:07 heh :) 03:09:59 hrm. i think ill stick to clisp now. im having trouble with basics, with an assignment due monday. no time to muck around 03:10:07 it works. 03:10:10 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@217.18.135.36] has joined #lisp 03:10:19 actually if you're not doing some heavy-duty stuff it will suffice 03:10:26 so stassats`is right :) 03:10:35 we're doing basic state-search stuff 03:10:42 eg tic-tac-tow, connect-4 03:10:50 cant be too heavy 03:14:26 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@217.18.135.36] has quit [Client Quit] 03:16:20 I'm curious how anyone can stand for the ASDF/GPG situation 03:17:04 there's no asdf/gpg situation 03:17:14 Makoryu: asdf-install? mostly by using clbuild instead. 03:17:28 Ah 03:18:17 tic-tac-toe game states obey the markov property, don't they? 03:18:34 untitled1 [n=untitled@150.197-26-211.dynamic.dsl.mel.iprimus.net.au] has joined #lisp 03:19:03 no idea who/what markov, and his property is 03:19:23 maybe it was mentioned. must've been sleeping 03:19:43 the one who discovered the markov chain, which makes generating realistic-looking nonsense text easier 03:19:49 Hi, do you guys provide help on lisp programming problems? 03:20:02 untitled1, don't ask to ask 03:20:04 is this your homework? 03:20:06 just ask 03:20:17 untitled1: Yes. We specialize in real help for real problems, and unhelpful help for homework problems. 03:20:41 Makoryu: what is the asdf-install/gpg situation 03:20:58 oh okay. well can anyone point me to some problems in lisp using the a* 03:21:06 clbuild is the Final Solution to The "asdf-install/gpg" Question 03:21:15 a*? 03:21:27 weirdo: A* search algo 03:21:36 xristos: Authentication of packages is not done on the distribution end, so it has to be done on the user end 03:21:42 xristos: the thing where you have to use GPG in order to feel safe with asdf-install. 03:21:42 xristos: And this is bogus 03:21:45 yes a* search algorithm 03:21:46 Penggu: I looked at the game recently and noticed that after about three moves you can get the same board contents from different preceeding board states, and it didn't seem to matter what the preceeding state was in terms of what moves were legal... 03:21:58 Makoryu: what is the distribution end ? 03:22:01 untitled1: sounds like homework. 03:22:06 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 03:22:25 wasn't there some graph search in PAIP? 03:22:25 ... A*? Was that in PAIP or AIMA? 03:22:34 aima for sure 03:22:35 Yes, but im only asking for some helpful links 03:22:38 paip i don't think so 03:22:45 nyef: isnt that where you discard mirror states? 03:22:48 I don't remember it being in PAIP, no. 03:22:55 none of us are safe now that our DNA has been Ken-Thompson-hacked... 03:23:10 xristos: The part where someone puts an ASDF-installable package on Cliki 03:23:31 Penggu: You can obtain the same result without discarding mirrored or rotated states, it just takes longer to enumerate the possibilities. 03:23:59 there's some graph search in PAIP but no A*-search, maybe you could compare performance with paip's beam-search 03:24:01 Makoryu: so why is end-user instead of centralized (if i understand you correctly) auth bogus ? 03:24:28 okay I will give that one a go. 03:24:37 anyway guys 03:24:50 ill better get cracking on my ass*ignment 03:24:50 maybe it would be fun to solve homework problems in a worst way imaginable 03:24:51 emacs-dwim: Ken-Thompson-hacks are still detectable if you actually suspect their existence. 03:24:52 xristos: Greater attack area (lots of users instead of one developer) 03:24:55 xristos: it's more that GPG is a lot of trouble for users, whereas it's easier to trust a centralized repository without having to make sure every key you got is right. 03:25:04 like, using free-form SETQ, putting parens on separate lines 03:25:06 thanks for pointing out my headache. 03:25:17 the centralized repo can take care of authenticating uploaders, no need for users to stress about it. 03:25:18 sanxiyn [n=tinuviel@110.76.72.94] has joined #lisp 03:25:20 weirdo: It is. Google lisppaste for "DFS return path". 03:25:23 and compete who can deliver the worst solution 03:25:42 i still have one though. need some paracetamol. 03:25:44 -!- Penggu [n=me@222.96.96.58.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [] 03:25:59 Makoryu: i don't see the attack area thing 03:26:19 weirdo: We've had competitions for tersest solution to someone's homework problem before, quoting pprinter output line lengths as scores but none of us giving the actual code. 03:26:39 ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 03:26:53 it isnot like there haven't been issues with centralized repositories before 03:27:10 security-wise, i'd say asdf-install is the better solution 03:27:12 -!- pem is now known as pemryan 03:27:34 minion: Tell weirdo about paste 24437, please. 03:27:35 weirdo: have a look at Paste number 24437: "DFS return path" by Raging-Thunder in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/24437 03:27:54 yeah, it's great :) 03:28:16 I still ocasionally wish I'd managed to get (car dinal) in there somehow. 03:28:16 someone "solved" a homework problem on cll by using only one-argument functions 03:28:20 and no fbound symbols 03:28:22 xristos: it puts a lot more responsibility on the user, users don't like that, and it's something that's sort of meant to be useful to users :) 03:28:25 Heh. 03:28:30 Makoryu: it is much easier for someone to break into a single 'central' server than break the chain of trust established with public keys checked at your end 03:29:17 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:29:45 sykopomp: i'm not arguing ease of use, so agreed on your points 03:30:40 -!- ol3 [n=user@82.113.121.154] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:30:48 xristos: and I completely agree that a strong web of trust is certainly stronger -- then again, I get the impression most users would just blindly grab whatever key they found and trust it "just because", which can actually be a bit dangerous for the web of trust. 03:30:50 ol3 [n=user@82.113.121.154] has joined #lisp 03:31:21 sure, you might as well get a gun and shoot yourself 03:31:35 you have to apply the principles in order for them to work ;p 03:32:48 ... It seems like this discussion comes up every few months, doesn't it? 03:33:06 nyef: the problem is our DNA influences what we are able to suspect -- see what a conspiracy-theorist i sound like when i say it? 03:33:06 xristos: Security is only secure if it's easy to use. 03:33:33 Makoryu: security is a chain as strong as it's weakest link 03:33:40 i like that one better 03:34:14 Makoryu, ease of use is subjective 03:34:20 xristos: And ease of use is one such link :p 03:34:21 (which undermines my position if you think of users as stupid) 03:34:27 GPG is incredibly easy to use. 03:34:32 (Users *are* stupid) 03:34:48 sykopomp, but ASDF-install poorly interfaces with it 03:34:53 there's a bunch of tools out there to make gpg painless 03:34:53 in debian one can use apt-key(1) 03:34:59 and it Just Works 03:35:19 gpg isn't exactly rocket science at its basics. 03:35:26 ASDF-install also conflates the notion of trust-in-identity and trust-to-write-software-for-various-purposes. 03:35:26 I'm surprised I didn't bother to set it up until recently. 03:41:21 minion: aima 03:41:21 aima: AIMA is Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach, http://aima.cs.berkeley.edu 03:46:12 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177075091.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:46:22 Good morning. 03:48:43 good morning. 03:48:53 -!- erk [n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:50:37 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:51:06 sykopomp: I guess GPG (rather PGP?) *was* rocket science in the past 03:52:06 G'night all. 03:52:13 I wonder what I should do about ccl's bundled asdf-install. My preferred answer is "nothing". 03:52:30 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-161-71-17.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["Gone... Probably offline until Thursday."] 03:53:02 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 03:53:20 But I have a 6-month-old bug report about it, and it's making me feel guilty. 03:54:28 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.212.198] has joined #lisp 03:59:30 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 03:59:31 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:04:06 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:05:37 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:07:43 alcohol helps wash away the guilt 04:08:31 :-) 04:08:49 sweet. I implemented futures on top of channels, and they ended up being faster and lighter than an existing futures library written with locks... 04:08:50 \o/ 04:08:58 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:09:23 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.130.237] has joined #lisp 04:09:56 sykopomp, what's a channel? 04:10:12 weirdo: a thread synchronisation primitive 04:11:03 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_(programming) 04:11:05 like this? 04:11:18 hmm i implemented message-passing with locks, is there a better way? 04:11:20 yes 04:11:37 as in, yes that's what I'm talking about. 04:11:54 and honestly, I'd implement message-passing on top of channels, since it would be much more natural to do it that way :P 04:12:02 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-151.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 04:12:16 sykopomp: Wasn't that from Plan 9 too 04:12:44 sanxiyn: Tony Hoare -> Rob Pike -> Newsqueak -> Plan 9 and family 04:12:45 sykopomp, but i don't think there's much mutex contention with locks 04:13:26 sykopomp, how are these 'channels' implemented in cl? 04:13:36 locks and condition variables :) 04:13:49 ...very carefully-placed locks and condition variables >_> 04:13:52 that's exactly what i used 04:14:01 -!- sohum [n=sohum@unaffiliated/sohum] has left #lisp 04:14:24 http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Synchronous_Concurrency#Common_Lisp 04:14:43 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 04:16:50 is that what you did or did you do it more efficiently? :) 04:17:06 and futures are sweet, do you plan on publishing the code? :) 04:17:11 not exactly, and I -think- I did it more efficiently. 04:17:21 it's already published. I tagged v0.1 yesterday. 04:18:14 sykopomp, sauce? 04:18:31 http://github.com/sykopomp/chanl 04:18:38 the futures are in examples/ 04:18:54 -!- vcgomes [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:18:58 vcgomes [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 04:20:52 hmm the series of tubes analogy seems pretty accurate for non-technical description 04:21:03 dunno why everyone's laughing at it 04:21:10 weirdo: I agree. 04:21:17 weirdo: did you actually listen to the audio clip? 04:21:24 sykopomp, not yet 04:21:27 it's not that he was wrong. 04:21:31 seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:59 listen to the audio clip. The funny comes from how clueless this senator is about the whole matter. 04:22:39 hmm, the clip is pretty lulzy 04:22:56 but for an american politician, i dunno why it even made the news 04:23:28 weirdo: Because Americans are for the most part ignorant of their politicians' tremendous fail 04:23:30 the internet has a way of spreading these things. 04:23:54 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-15-203.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 04:24:00 They have the best propaganda system in the world. :) 04:24:35 well for an american politician i'd expect something along the lines of internet is communist, we need to shut it down. shut down the internets! 04:25:06 Harms the childrens is more likely. 04:25:20 or harbors terrorists 04:25:36 red scare is so cold-war :( 04:25:50 -!- setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:27:04 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 04:27:18 Internet helps terrorists 04:27:29 (FACT) 04:27:31 the terrorists are hiding in the tubes 04:27:41 more lisp, please 04:27:56 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:28:05 it's 6AM :( 04:28:23 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 04:28:47 hard to be serious after an all-nighter 04:29:52 Sometimes I wonder what are actually the definitive characteristics of lisp. 04:30:31 -!- legumbre [n=user@190.135.47.181] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:31:06 KMP tries to make it political 04:31:20 Not interested in political arguments. 04:31:26 i'd go for homoiconicity, not even lambda (ACL2) 04:31:44 Homoiconicity, and metaprogramming. 04:31:49 Especially metaprogramming. 04:31:58 i'd even go as far and consider tcl as a lisp 04:32:03 Yeah, that seems fairly close to it. 04:32:08 it has /some/ degree of metaprogramming, though no macros 04:32:21 Although kind of vague and meatless. 04:32:28 weirdo: Yeah, it always struck me as vaguely lispy... But it's a really sorry lisp, at that. 04:32:51 Makoryu, yeah, kind of like newlisp, which is definitely a lisp 04:32:51 A string oriented lisp? :) 04:33:13 so what, homoiconicity and cons cells? 04:33:39 http://foobiebletch.wordpress.com/2009/08/08/newlisp-an-infantile-disorder/ 04:33:54 *weirdo* wrote this after seeing some newlisp propaganda on yet another web site 04:34:04 One thing that's always struck me as important is that semantics are determined by context. 04:34:17 Clojure is steering away from cons cells for everything but code... Does that make it less lispy? 04:34:24 they're notorious for defacing wikis and other interactive sites with references to their crap 04:34:34 So, the meaning of (a b c) is unknowable without knowing where (a b c) is, lexically speaking. 04:34:54 I don't think that cons blocks are actually important. 04:35:06 They're just primitive, which is valuable. 04:35:17 well, then is a macro-language resembling lisp a lisp? 04:35:21 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:46 Well, at some point of resemblence, I think the answer has to be 'yes'. 04:35:48 (like tcl, which isn't a macro language anymore, but has its semantics) 04:35:53 Makoryu: I think Clojure is Lisp. 04:36:00 e.g. gosling emacs 04:36:14 erk [n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 04:36:39 s/Clojure/Lisp Whose Name Shouldn't Be Mentioned/ 04:36:47 If Tcl could be Lisp, how about Io? 04:37:04 It's an OO language (message passing) with homoiconicity. 04:37:16 Can you think of anything to disqualify it? 04:37:30 Zhivago: Not cons cell? 04:37:36 lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-223-091.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:43 weirdo: Eh, why? 04:38:19 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:38:25 Lisp maps well onto my language: (defmethod verb ((noun dependent-clause))... &key (key adverb)...) 04:38:26 #'infinitive 04:38:46 (Lisp Who Must Not Be Named) 04:39:08 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:39:10 (I think that is correct one if one is referring to Voldemort's title?) 04:39:35 You can always make cons cells :) 04:39:57 sanxiyn, because of the Andre Thieme fellow that tries to cause a balkanization of CL community (dunno if i spelled his name correctly) 04:40:17 weirdo: I don't understand. 04:40:36 sanxiyn, for a period of time, for every CL-related question he said how much CL sucks and clojure should be used instead 04:41:03 A reasonable thing to do. 04:41:21 weirdo: Is he someone like Jon Harrop 04:41:35 Ah, yeah, that's pretty damning for Clojure, I suppose (but not really) 04:41:48 (Who answers every OCaml question with one should switch to F# or so) 04:42:10 sanxiyn, at least this french dude doesn't try to sell a book or some toad extract or something 04:42:18 The annoying thing that I find are the uncritical fan-boys. 04:42:20 sanxiyn: He's doing that now? I thought he only hated Haskell and wanted people to switch to OCaml 04:42:23 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 04:42:33 Makoryu: You haven't bee on caml-list... 04:42:37 If they can criticise then more power to them. 04:42:43 Makoryu: OCaml is doomed because it's not multicore ready. 04:43:11 Zhivago, for most part of the cll flamefest, the issues weren't very clear-cut, CL made some design choices that weren't necessarily worse 04:43:21 san: That's not a problem once you go multi-process. 04:43:27 sanxiyn: python is not multicore ready, but it doesn't look doomed to me ;p 04:43:34 clojure is pretty ugly, but I don't entirely hate its ideas. It's just an overhyped lisp. 04:43:35 it was argued that clojure is 'better' because it has immutable cons cells so programmers won't shoot themselves in a foot 04:43:38 Zhivago: I am echoing Jon Harrop's opinion, not mine... 04:43:53 although I guess it's a saving grace for all those poor blokes out in the world that have to slave away in java land. 04:44:03 weirdo: I'd agree that immutable cons cells are a good idea -- Baker does, too. 04:44:25 sykopomp: strangely, i kind of like scala better than clojure 04:44:26 xristos: but python has its own niche, on top of the fact that unladen swallow is being developed. 04:44:41 xristos: better a non-lisp than an uglylisp :P 04:44:41 Zhivago, why so? shooting-in-the-foot reason, performance, else? 04:44:44 sykopomp: As far as I can see Unladen Swallow is going nowhere. 04:44:54 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [Client Quit] 04:44:55 It is certainly hyped. 04:44:55 sykopomp: i always have CL for a lisp 04:44:57 sykopomp, i'd choose newlisp over perl 04:44:59 clojure is too painful for me 04:45:17 weirdo: Yes, yes, and because immutable structures allow you to do more reasoning about your program. 04:45:20 Really, people should look at PyPy, not Unladen Swallow (my opinion) 04:45:40 weirdo: You can always roll your own mutable two celled structure if you really need mutable conses. 04:45:46 sanxiyn: it's hard to ignore having direct support from something like google. 04:45:53 sanxiyn: my only interest in python is trying not to vomit when coming across it 04:46:01 weirdo: but, realistically speaking what proportion of conses want mutation? 04:46:25 sykopomp: So it's Google-hyped, and not everything coming from Google is any good. 04:46:28 Zhivago, just having immutable cons cells isn't enough. a pure lisp with type inference and all static-verification goodness would be good to write the critical path in, though 04:46:33 you can make SBCL as awesome as you want, but if Norvig some day decides to allocate resources to making CLISP good... 04:46:50 sanxiyn: it's more a matter of resources 04:47:10 weirdo: Well, I don't think we want pure -- but the more purity you can get your hands on (when convenient) the easier many tasks become. 04:47:14 sykopomp: Yeah, having full time developer is hard to beat 04:47:22 I mean, CPython has exactly zero full time developer. 04:47:24 Same for Ruby. 04:47:34 huh? Really? 04:47:38 That's news to me. 04:47:43 sykopomp: Really. 04:47:57 Zhivago, if a pure language didn't require a separate reader and entry could be done with a macro call, it could actually be usable 04:48:13 Only people working on Python that is full-time is either Jython developer, IronPython developer, Stackless developer, or Unladen Swallow developer. 04:49:01 (Same for Ruby. Only JRuby, IronRuby, etc. has full time developer.) 04:49:30 does sbcl have anyone working full-time on it? 04:49:33 weirdo: Well, if you make conses by default immutable, and then required people to use mutable:cons otherwise ... 04:49:37 I can't remember if MacRuby has full-time devs 04:49:39 weirdo: Probably not... 04:49:42 and isn't full-time equivalent with wage-slavery? 04:49:52 weirdo: Nope. Look at the commit history if you doubt it 04:49:56 Makoryu: Isn't Laurent Sansonetti one? 04:50:12 weirdo: And you could handle legacy issues with package imports ... 04:50:25 sanxiyn: Guess so! 04:50:52 So... really Ruby, Python, etc. is resource starved 04:50:59 I guess that's why one look forward to Unladen Swallow 04:51:05 And PyPy, while it had EU funding 04:51:08 That was awesome. 04:51:15 Zhivago, just putting immutable conses into CL won't do. there are many places that inhibit reasoning about the program, types etc. 04:51:27 for one, there are no recursive types 04:52:09 is it even possible to define a TYPED-PROPER-LIST type without resorting to SATISFIES? 04:52:46 weirdo: No, since CL doesn't support recursive types. 04:52:47 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-236-165.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:53:30 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:53:34 *weirdo* tried learning haskell, but got discouraged since it lacks a proper VM 04:53:47 weirdo: ? 04:53:54 weirdo: If you forbid an immutable cons to refer to a mutable cons ... 04:54:01 (not that I'm recommending it) 04:54:25 (caml-list flamefest started by Jon Harrop is going on and on and on...) 04:54:39 is there any acceptable type system? 04:54:42 asdf25 [n=Jeff@pool-173-79-244-104.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:50 weirdo: A proper VM? 04:55:04 weirdo: I quite like sequent calculus, ala Qi. 04:55:08 Xavier Leroy said "Coq is an example of important OCaml application where serial performance is crucial" or something along that line, 04:55:17 anyone know if there's any tool i could use to help find a memory leak in a LispWorks program? 04:55:21 Makoryu, lisp- or smalltalk-style VM where everything is mutable, not a java-style sorry-excuse-of-a-vm 04:55:24 and Jon Harrop goes Coq is irrelevant, who care about serial performance in parallel world? or so 04:55:50 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 04:55:57 I think you want 'redefinable' rather than 'mutable', and CL places quite a lot of limitations on that, too. 04:56:03 weirdo: Doesn't GHC compile to native executable? 04:56:10 sanxiyn, that's not the point 04:56:15 sanxiyn: Yeah. 04:56:16 and it does 04:56:38 Zhivago, can these fancy type systems actually prove that e.g. binary tree is always balanced, or that nothing is divided by zero? 04:56:41 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:57:19 weirdo: Yes. They can also be set up to be inconsistent. 04:57:34 *weirdo* is going to take math classes. it's hard to do any kind of optimizing compiler without proofs 04:57:43 What is status of Qi? 04:57:47 Zhivago, hmm, that's actually useful 04:58:00 (Didn't Qi author say he no longer plans to work on it?) 04:58:07 weirdo: So, with sufficient effort you can do whatever you want, but you have to make sure that you didn't break your logic system. 04:58:22 Zhivago, but automatic theorem proving is... limited 04:58:32 if it wasn't, there wouldn't be any open problems in math 04:58:33 He's run off to india, but Qi is usable. 04:59:11 india? so he's going to solve captchas for a living? 04:59:21 Zhivago: Are you referring to Curry-Howard isomorphism? 04:59:32 (With sufficient effort you can do whatever...) 05:00:07 sanxiyn: No -- to sequent calculus. 05:02:06 I know natural deduction is different from sequent calculus which is also different from Hilbert deduction, 05:02:10 but not too clear on details... 05:02:48 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 05:04:23 What is general term including things like Hilbert deduction, natural deduction, sequent calculus, etc? 05:04:26 Proof calculus? 05:06:52 i dunno math as of yet, but is the thought process of a mathematician proving a statement too complex to be reproduced using a computer algorithm? 05:07:02 Apparently it is: 05:07:02 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_calculus 05:07:21 weirdo: Apparently... 05:07:54 "The most widely known proof calculi are Hilbert systems, natural deduction, and sequent calculus." -- Wikipedia 05:09:13 it would be nice having something along the lines of a formalism for defining axioms, list of statements, and a function that returns either T, NIL or (error 'incomplete) basing upon this data 05:10:05 weirdo: From what I can see of automated theorem provers, that is very, very difficult. 05:10:58 the day we do it we'll invent a god 05:11:17 It's not just about notation (how do we represent sigma, integral, etc?) or automation (how to prove inequality?) 05:11:17 "if god didn't exist we'd have to invent him" -- voltaire 05:11:26 It also seems to be about inferrence. 05:11:53 Just formalizing mathematically intuitive "only logical" inferrence seems to be very difficult. 05:12:00 oh right, certain things are undecidable 05:12:06 Ah, not that... 05:12:11 Mizar tried that 05:12:23 Its documentation on how Mizar performs inferences is very very long 05:12:27 and almost unreadable 05:12:36 But apparently it matches intution quite well. 05:12:36 -!- asdf25 [n=Jeff@pool-173-79-244-104.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:13:24 Except Mizar is fucking closed source Pascal program originally (and still mainly) written for MS-DOS. 05:13:37 But they tried. 05:14:15 hmm once i learn math i'll probably be busy "solving" the halting problem :( 05:14:56 weirdo: Calculate busy beaver numbers! :) 05:15:10 sanxiyn, not for any n, but for given n it can be done 05:15:21 Exactly. 05:15:25 sanxiyn, besides, it can be done half-assedly without much math knowledge 05:15:43 weirdo: Don't you need to prove various non-termination? 05:15:54 sanxiyn, half-assedly one can just run them for a loong time 05:16:25 the time scales with the number of states or something 05:16:33 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.212.198] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:16:40 but with today's hardware and small n, half an hour or so is enough 05:16:50 You still need to prove non-termination I think. 05:16:52 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has joined #lisp 05:17:02 You cannot calculate BB(n) by just running machines. 05:18:05 sanxiyn, but half-assedly it's enough to set a timeout, since in practice every single one that invokes the timeout doesn't terminate 05:18:57 it might pass for liberal definitions of "calculate busy beaver numbers" :)) 05:18:59 huangjs pasted "Why treating the arg as a machine integer?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87932 05:19:07 weirdo: Eh, so, how do you plan to solve halting problem once you learn math? 05:19:37 Halting problem is easy -- only use programs which halt after a certain number of cycles. :) 05:19:48 hi, I'm wondering why SBCL will treat the input argument as a machine integer. Any good reason for doing this? 05:21:50 sanxiyn, i don't plan to solve it, i plan to try 05:21:56 that's a fundamental difference 05:22:43 I think there are people who tries to prove consistency of foundation of mathematics. 05:22:43 more seriously, i think it makes sense to go around important proofs and see if they're correct 05:23:01 sanxiyn, who proves their proof is correct? 05:23:17 weirdo: Other mathematicians? Or machine could do that. 05:23:26 sanxiyn, who proves the proof of their proof is correct? 05:23:32 (Note that direct route is impossible thanks to Goedel) 05:23:38 huangjs: Don't the two types have the same bounds? 05:23:48 huangjs: because you told sbcl that it is a fixnum? 05:24:15 weirdo: You reduce huge assumption to tiny assumption, not eliminate assumption. 05:24:48 Makoryu: emacs-dwim: INC RDX is not the right answer for fixnum 05:25:59 AFAI rembember, it's not the case for earlier SBCLs. I'm not sure when it's been changed and why. 05:27:05 huangjs: what about (add rdx 4) (shl rdx 3) 05:27:17 huangjs: Just guessing here, but could the argument parsing be responsible for shifting right by three positions? 05:27:24 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84.217.6.84] has joined #lisp 05:27:47 emacs-dwim: there's no (add rdx 4) 05:27:52 huangjs: yeah, is this is correctness question (beach has the answer as to how the unboxing happens, I think), or an optimization question? 05:27:52 lichtblau, memo from thijso: is there a way to nicely document getters and setters with atdoc? Getters I can manage, but I can't get the setter to show up... (and a side point: did you receive my emails about atdoc from a couple of weeks ago? Or did they get lost in your spam filter?) 05:28:08 huangjs: ;; effectively 05:28:24 It does seems like a bad thing optimization-wise to unbox and rebox for simple fixnum arithmetic. 05:28:48 Usually the compiler biases in favour of fixnum arithmetic, not the other way around. 05:29:35 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 05:30:18 emacs-dwim: I understand what you wanted to say now. that's exactly my question. 05:30:46 lichtblau: yeah, sounds like an optmization, but is there a good reason? if there are nested funcalls each time the return value would be a fixnum but the arg-parsing would still shift the arg to a machien integer. 05:30:59 -!- prip [n=_prip@host136-121-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:31:00 lichtblau: why not just operate on the fixnum directly. 05:31:28 -!- seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:31:39 prip [n=_prip@host54-197-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 05:33:15 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:33:31 splittist [n=dmurray@85.4.220.156] has joined #lisp 05:33:34 morning 05:35:18 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-15-252.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:35:19 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 05:36:45 huangjs: representation selection is too complex for there to ever be a single "reason" for this kind of thing, I think. If things really changed in a recent SBCL release, you could bisect to find the commit that changed things. 05:37:10 (What happens without the truly-the, btw?) 05:37:10 hello splittist 05:38:02 lichtblau: without truly-the, there'll be fixnum overflow detection. 05:38:23 huangjs: was the previous sbcl on x8664? 05:38:48 lichtblau: even the function is declared (safety 0) and return value to be fixnum 05:39:04 what's your position toward "modern mode"? 05:39:19 emacs-dwim: ? I'm using 1.0.31.22, 05:39:34 is it even worth it to write code that supports a non-uppercasing reader? 05:39:41 weirdo: "man, I'm glad we switched our codebase away from that." <-- my position 05:40:05 because i generally try to be reader- and printer- agnostic 05:40:41 Not that case-sensitiveness would be a bad thing in a new Lisp. But to support both, with gazillions of 3rd-party libraries inevitably failing? Very bad idea. 05:40:42 even if much code is reader-agnostic, downcasing printer breaks lotsa' stuff, like closure-html 05:41:15 still it somehow bothers me seeing (defpackage "FOO" ... (:export "BAR")) 05:41:59 at least it's not the pointy eye-injuring #:foo 05:42:22 (not that all caps is all that pleasant either, but still...) 05:42:26 -!- sanxiyn [n=tinuviel@110.76.72.94] has left #lisp 05:44:21 I kinda like the idea of modern mode. I would definitely tag along if there was a move to it. 05:44:27 huangjs: does the value of n get inlined here, once it is known? 05:44:51 know any fun general-purpose libraries other than bind or iterate? 05:44:56 weirdo: use #:foo #:bar 05:45:24 *weirdo* for a long time resisted external dependencies, but now that i can't live without metabang-bind, i can use everything i want. kinda' liberating. 05:45:36 beach, i was referring to third-party code :) i know that 05:45:39 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-30-58.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:45:42 Oh, sorry. 05:45:48 I can't live without a good chunk of alexandria 05:46:05 although I usually pull in bits and pieces that I need instead of depending on it.. 05:47:00 emacs-dwim: probably, it's reasonable to represent local fixnums as machine integers. 05:48:32 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 05:51:21 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:52:26 -!- wol [n=wol@67.174.222.215] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:54:39 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 05:56:25 huangjs: they are left-shifted by 3 bits, so i'm guessing the input-argument is shifted at the call site and the instruction modified during inlining. right? 05:57:54 emacs-dwim: That would be very hard, because then you could not have written the calling function first. 05:58:25 huangjs: either a constant or bp-indexed local 05:58:56 emacs-dwim: More likely, in the "argument parsing" code which is not shown, the unboxing is done as lichtblau says. 05:59:31 emacs-dwim: yeah, exactly, but what's the reason for doing this? 05:59:38 huangjs: that means the input is right-shifted? 06:00:43 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 06:00:50 brb 06:01:13 *beach* vanishes since nobody seems to pay attention to what he says anyway. 06:01:50 mrSpec 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Quit] 07:17:43 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 07:18:09 -!- namor_ [n=namor@dslb-088-072-241-070.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:19:07 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:23:49 no_mind [n=orion@122.163.223.100] has joined #lisp 07:27:14 Joreji [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:27:49 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 07:28:44 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 07:29:07 aerique [n=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:29:33 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-172-90.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:31:38 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1337.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:32:41 amaron [n=amaron@93.86.161.198] has joined #lisp 07:33:01 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@193.247.250.37] has joined #lisp 07:34:10 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 07:41:52 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 07:44:21 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:44:30 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-246.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:48:23 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 07:48:27 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:50:55 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@84-72-45-92.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:52:48 what does sb-impl::slow-hairy-data-vector-ref do, and what is a slow-hairy-data-vector? The source didn't help me much. 07:59:00 -!- lukego_ [n=lukegorr@193.247.250.37] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:59:13 galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:59:59 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 08:03:28 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:04:31 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:06:44 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 08:07:12 Joreji_ [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:07:56 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:08:23 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 08:08:26 Good morning! 08:08:49 plage: morn' 08:08:52 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 08:10:40 hello plage 08:11:33 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 08:12:32 namor_ [n=namor@zbc5e.pia.fu-berlin.de] has joined #lisp 08:13:50 crod [n=cmell@222.105.162.38] has joined #lisp 08:15:14 -!- crod [n=cmell@222.105.162.38] has quit [Client Quit] 08:15:26 crod [n=cmell@222.105.162.38] has joined #lisp 08:16:19 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@222.105.162.38] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:17:32 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:19:10 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 08:19:15 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:23:18 -!- crod is now known as c|mell 08:23:49 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:24:25 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:26:46 -!- younder [n=jpthing@113.14.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 08:31:19 younder [n=jpthing@113.14.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 08:35:29 I hate using windows again.. 08:36:25 Trying to compile gnome 2.4 from source and then install it was a mistake 08:36:57 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:37:00 now I can get the login screen just a wait icon 08:37:33 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 08:37:34 Luckily I have dual boot 08:39:17 stumpwm ftw 08:39:54 Yes, It has been days 08:39:55 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-206-119-189.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:40:39 The problem is Ubuntu gives you no root passwd. So you have no console login 08:41:21 *p_l* locked himself out of root account 08:41:29 if I had a console I could do a 'sudo passwd ror' 08:41:32 root 08:41:39 or last update changed a lot in /bin/login 08:43:07 younder: you surely can log in with the existing user in console 08:43:19 no 08:43:48 what does sbcl mean with pointer in "float to pointer coercion"? I guess that's not a pointer like in C? 08:47:04 I tried the ubuntu help channel without much success 08:49:19 so now I ask you if you have any experience with grub 08:49:48 hugod_ [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441541.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 08:49:50 (the boot loader) 08:51:59 guess not sigh 08:52:28 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:52:38 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E016.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:04 crod [n=cmell@118.46.128.68] has joined #lisp 08:54:37 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:55:32 younder, why don't you boot off a cd? 08:56:09 -!- namor_ [n=namor@zbc5e.pia.fu-berlin.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:56:21 you can then mount your ubuntu partition, chroot and change the password. 08:58:03 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 08:58:07 lpolzer: I did 08:58:31 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest8792 08:58:34 lpolzer: but that doesn't meen I can change anything on the boot disk 08:58:40 mean 08:58:55 why not? 08:59:06 you get a setuid error 08:59:14 come on. The channel may have been quiet before, but that doesn't give you a free pass for writing nonsense about younder vs. Linux. 08:59:41 a security measure to secure that not just any root is everyones root 09:00:02 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.83] has quit ["be back later"] 09:00:16 lichtblau: ? 09:01:17 it's #lisp, stay on topic 09:03:29 I get it getting my Linux installation working again is not relevant. Despite that most f Lisp code is on he Linux disk 09:03:43 whatever 09:04:04 sepi: both of your questions sound like you might need more type declarations. Out-of-line array access means that the compiler can't rule out full array headers (displaced arrays/etc). Float boxing happens for function return values and arguments, for example. 09:04:19 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@222.105.162.38] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:04:32 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:04:34 sbcl then 09:06:28 younder, what setuid error? 09:06:39 why don't you ask #ubuntu people? 09:07:03 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441929.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:07:03 -!- hugod_ is now known as hugod 09:07:33 lpolzer: That is the error I get when trying a passwd root 09:07:50 lpolzer: I have 09:08:38 nuff said it doesn't belong here 09:09:07 soory for the noise lichtblau 09:09:16 anyway -- password change working or not, you can still get at your files and copy them over 09:09:27 yes 09:09:45 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:09:48 and I have a backup 09:10:50 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 09:11:00 lichtblau: so does pointer have something to do with boxing? 09:11:01 I just don't like system gong down without me knowing EXACTLY why 09:12:28 younder: look for "MORE MAGIC" switch ;-) 09:14:03 no, get someone who really understands the system to press the MORE MAGIC switch for you 09:14:06 won't work otherwise. 09:14:56 I watched some videos about clojure yesterday, and noticed that it has "named lambdas" (so a lambda can refer to itself), is there a way to do this in clisp? 09:15:09 lichtblau: the problem with the array is that I'm using cl-png. The image type is opaque though, so I can't tell the compiler about the types I guess. I might try to tell sbcl about the return type of (aref image..) or the parameters of (setf (aref image..)) though 09:15:13 I prefer to rely on my intelligence 09:15:38 It is usually enough 09:15:57 now on with Lisp, sorry for the distraction 09:17:22 -!- Guest8792 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 09:17:25 sepi: looked into the (the ...) 09:17:43 ? 09:19:27 younder: not exactly :/. I'll give it a shot. Thanks all for you help! 09:19:46 What help? 09:20:53 It would help If we had (the relevant part of) the source sepi. paste it to paste.lisp.org 09:21:28 sepi: yes, "conversion to pointer" means tagging 09:23:19 aren't SAPs untyped? 09:23:21 ampleyfly: check out alexandria:named-lambda and how it's implemented 09:23:23 -!- crod [n=cmell@118.46.128.68] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:23:25 lichtblau: hmm, strange name. 09:23:55 bluelight 09:24:07 lichtblau: right 09:24:14 in german 09:24:24 younder: oh, gone from regular trolling to making fun of people's names now? 09:24:33 hmm i should use FLET as an alternative to FUNCTION LAMBDA 09:24:34 ? 09:25:09 I don't think you name is fun 09:25:28 don't worry 09:25:38 "is fun", hmm 09:26:03 germans.. 09:26:09 ampleyfly, "clisp" is an implementation, "CL" or "common lisp" is the language the channel is about 09:26:53 aha 09:26:56 cl, then. 09:26:57 (well it makes sense to say "how to do foo in clisp", but "named local function" has portable meaning) 09:26:58 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:27:26 oh, and clisp is awfully slow, use sbcl or ccl where applicable 09:27:37 before you decide that "lisp is slow" 09:28:34 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:28:53 lichtblau: aha, got it =) 09:29:05 clisp uses a bytecode interpreter rather than compileing code making it up to 400 times slows than a compiled Lisp 09:29:29 namor_ [n=namor@zbc5e.pia.fu-berlin.de] has joined #lisp 09:29:39 it's not *that* slow. but it's pretty awful, yes 09:29:42 compiling to bytecode is compiling 09:29:55 That might not matter if your code spends most of it's time in C code 09:30:11 why would you need to call C code? 09:30:12 mm, why is clisp so slow? java/c# are bytecode compiled too, but still are pretty fast 09:30:20 or it has no JIT? 09:30:24 As is typical of web programming 09:30:25 freiksenet, java has a native-code compiler 09:30:48 younder, actually, lisp has databases written in pure lisp 09:30:50 freiksenet: also java has quite some money behind it 09:30:51 freiksenet: the bytecode is interpreted, not compiled 09:30:58 see rucksack 09:31:02 and manardb 09:31:12 wierdo: yes, so 09:31:18 freiksenet, JIT is some fancy term for what has existed in lisp for frakking decades 09:31:18 jdz: okay, thanks. 09:31:41 weirdo: oh well, you can say this about 90% of modern IT terms 09:31:44 weirdo: i disagree 09:31:48 Btw, does anyone know if there are plans to implement a tree shaker for sbcl? I've only read about a proof on concept one. 09:31:51 Lisp is a language, not a implementation 09:32:15 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:32:19 SBCL has decent performance and is COMPILED 09:32:46 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 09:32:55 younder: and your point is? 09:33:08 java isn't exemplary of any positive quality, except for programmer replaceability (that's positive for the bourgeoise, not programmers) 09:33:37 weirdo: java is made to be understandable for brain-damaged people. it serves it's purpose well. 09:33:40 wierdo: yes Java totally sucks 09:33:45 (by) 09:33:56 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 09:34:38 so, the purpose of java is to make firing people and replacing them with hindus or gooks as easy as possible 09:34:43 and now we are at java... anyone with op to scare trolling away? 09:35:07 ldz: the point being that clisp performance is not representative for Lisp 09:35:13 attila_lendvai, who's trolling? dunno if any java apologists are present 09:35:49 weirdo: there are some positive moments in java - it replace C++ (and COBOL) as defacto standard for business. 09:36:13 freiksenet, it doesn't replace COBOL, and is a very poor replacement for C++ 09:36:26 weirdo: i don't give a shit about linux and/or java woes... if i did, i was in #java and #linux... 09:36:29 what does it have over C++ beside GC and type safety? 09:36:50 if java has to be compared to statically-typed languages, it should be compared to haskell 09:37:00 haskell is statically-typed, yet "f x = x" is valid code 09:37:05 how would it work in java? 09:37:15 Identity(42) = 42 09:37:36 attila_lendvai, good point. me shuts up about jabba 09:37:56 weirdo: IMO it is better for the world if not-so-good programmers use Java than C++ %) but yes, I need to go to #java to troll them :) 09:38:30 freiksenet, it's not ignorance that characterises idiots, but willful ignorance 09:38:48 by that definition, idiots shouldn't engage in programming 09:39:04 should they? 09:39:12 and yet we do 09:39:16 ahem 09:39:17 lol 09:39:43 i knew a person who now studies medicine to perform plastic surgery and prescribe viagra and xanax. for cash, of course 09:40:04 sooo, what's the latest state on delivering saved CL images as executables to consumers and making them harder to disassemble? 09:40:19 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:40:25 *younder* could boast of a IQ of 173 but chooses not to 09:40:38 aerique: why do you want to make machine code harder to disassemble? 09:40:42 aerique, abandoning that line of reasoning 09:40:52 younder: internet iq tests don't count 09:41:01 the idea of closed-source code repulses me 09:41:08 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:41:22 does not SBCL supports compiling code to executables? 09:41:24 well there goes my attempt at trying to get on-topic again 09:41:30 aerique: Done at Oslo university 09:41:43 I have not tried it yet, but read somewhere that it is possible 09:41:47 weirdo: yes, people should charge for acces to code 09:41:56 freiksenet: yes it is possible 09:42:06 aerique: on-topic but off-charter :-) 09:42:08 well there's a matter of going through all allocated objects and purging documentation and debug info, maybe even arglists 09:43:08 the only thing i know of is some kind of obfuscating code in the ai repository 09:43:18 jdz, people are free to charge for software, and other people are free to share it with others, free of charge 09:43:20 freiksenet: sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die in sbcl 09:43:42 aerique, but what's there to obfuscate? machine code? 09:43:44 sepi: is it portable? 09:44:14 besides, lisp machine code is pretty unusual, average cracker might not be able to understand it :) 09:44:21 weirdo: well, people are free to do whatever they want. even punching other people in the face. 09:44:25 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:33 sepi: I mean, can I send this to my clueless windows friends so they can run it without installing sbcl themselves 09:45:04 jdz, except that physical violence has a high conviction rate 09:45:19 I know commercial lisps allow this, but my religion forbids me using proprietary products in this case %) 09:45:40 weirdo: your point being? 09:46:02 freiksenet: I guess 09:46:04 freiksenet: any religion that forbits you to do anything is a lame religion. 09:46:04 freiksenet: What religion? 09:46:24 freiksenet: it should contain a whole sbcl with compiler and libs afaik 09:46:25 lol :) church of emacs. 09:46:36 jdz, people are deterred from violence by the possibility of retaliatory state violence. with copyright infringement, no such deterrent exists 09:46:37 freiksenet: ACL and LispWorks are better thanthe free versions. 09:46:53 weirdo: so then it's ok to do it? 09:47:15 -!- namor_ [n=namor@zbc5e.pia.fu-berlin.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:47:16 younder: oh well. they are not THAT better to step over my moral values. 09:47:23 freiksenet: except some people may not agree with younder... 09:47:24 jdz, legality has nothing to do with morality 09:47:39 weirdo: so then why do you bring it up? 09:48:15 well it's al in the value you set in GUI support and libraries 09:48:15 jdz, because you made an analogy between punching people in the face and copyright infringement 09:48:19 sepi: well windows programs usually contain huge bunch of random shit, so this sounds okay. 09:48:36 weirdo: nope. i made an analogy of people being free to do things. 09:48:39 -!- swathanthran [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:48:46 weirdo: symbol names and a zip password (yes really) because of this requirement: http://www.3drt.com/3dm/license.htm (point b) 09:48:53 -!- xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:49:13 I'd like to make two versions of the function pasted in http://paste.lisp.org/display/87936#1 . Only the inner loop should be different. Should I replace the inner loop by calls to lambdas that I give to the convolute-2d function, or is there a better method? 09:49:39 ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 09:49:39 I am hooked to CAPI. 09:49:46 freiksenet: I guess that you have to drop your core on windows though 09:50:00 The best GUI lib out there. 09:50:06 sepi: what do you mean? 09:50:16 aerique, now that's funny. it's like if GCC forced every output binary to be licensed under the GPL 09:50:33 except that these .3ds or whatever files aren't even executable 09:50:38 freiksenet: well I suppose you can't just save-lisp-and-die on GNU/Linux and then run it on windows 09:50:41 swathanthran [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has joined #lisp 09:51:34 So when I heard that LispWorks 6 would have Gtk+ suport I jumped on ot 09:51:43 it 09:51:55 weirdo: they just want to keep making money on the product they're selling i guess 09:51:56 people are saying good things about CLIM, maybe you should try it 09:52:08 not lkely 09:52:14 I hate it 09:52:52 It's about as bad as Tk 09:53:03 possibly worse 09:53:18 why do you hate something you don't use? 09:53:35 what's bad about Tk, by the way? 09:53:48 sepi: I think you need to add ":executable t". At least that's what I see in docs 09:53:49 Why would I use something I hate? 09:53:58 younder: are you a jew? 09:54:18 lol, no worse, irish 09:54:22 hate crime! hate crime! 09:54:24 freiksenet: yeah 09:54:32 weirdo: it's kinda ugly? Main thing that annoys me is stupid floating style menus 09:54:50 freiksenet, CLIM actually has some themeing support 09:55:22 too bad it doesn't support xft out of the box :( 09:55:24 weirdo: I hope I will never program any GUI, ever ) but yes, I was going to try CLIM if I would be forced too 09:55:51 actually, people who use CLIM say it's very easy to do stuff 09:56:11 yeah, someone said this to me here already :) 09:57:06 I use Gtk for Linux for Windows for Mac. I Love it... 09:57:26 I used it with python and it was a mess 09:57:27 But that's me 09:58:47 freiksenet: All GUI's area mess to program. 09:59:12 freiksenet: I loved the win32 API for it's purity.. 09:59:14 younder, cells or what? 09:59:23 hardly 09:59:24 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 09:59:33 younder: http://www.peter-herth.de/ltk/ is kind of easy 10:00:14 lTk is seductive but no good for hard projects 10:00:43 Hard things get awkward 10:01:25 younder: win32 API and purity are words that are rarely hear in one sentence 10:01:36 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:01:52 In general for anything more difficult than SQL forms I use Gtk. 10:01:55 CLIM looks pretty attractive due to presentations 10:02:37 I was a little put off by the documentation of mcclim 10:02:42 freiksenet: Well now you have. It is beautiful. 10:02:52 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:03:01 sepi: I recommend reading LispWorks documentation on CLIM 2.0 10:03:27 p_l, hmm is it the same as mcclim or does it involve some amount of vendor lock-in? 10:06:50 weirdo: there are small differences in implementation, however the documentation tries to document the *standard* and vendor-specific stuff was afaik quite clearly identified 10:06:58 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.83] has joined #lisp 10:07:21 p_l: aha, thanks for the hint 10:07:39 mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6B8E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:50 Gtk works on Linux, Windows and Mac's that alone is a argument 10:07:53 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 10:07:58 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 10:08:00 p_l, great :-) i'll take a look at it 10:08:33 but avoid cells.. I hate it 10:09:10 sorry Kenny 10:11:55 hahaha 10:12:43 yeah, cells sound great in his blog posts, but after finally making it compile&load, cells-gtk made me scream in horror looking at traceback from error that obviously happened just as I tried to run demo :> 10:13:15 -!- acieroid [n=acieroid@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:13:20 acieroid [n=acieroid@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 10:13:59 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:14:28 demo worked for me, but i don't like kenny's protocols and dataflow-oriented programming 10:15:27 dataflow orented programming is the future. it is the waywe deal with massive paralleism 10:15:38 way we 10:15:52 chris2 [n=chris@91.22.161.240] has joined #lisp 10:16:01 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 10:16:08 younder: yeah, but I agree with people complaining about some problems with cells, like its "magic" bits 10:16:26 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 10:16:38 To much magic too little conrto 10:16:43 control 10:17:12 That's why I hate it 10:17:30 YMMV 10:20:41 serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06e5ca.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:20:48 hello 10:21:35 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:21:41 yeah that and macros named "c?", "c??", "c8", "c_" etc 10:21:58 all without docstrings and clear distinct purposes 10:22:10 weirdo: Impenetrable yes? 10:22:36 weirdo: kryptolib 10:22:54 younder, "kryptolib", what's that? 10:23:34 weirdo: cryptography of source 10:24:51 lol 10:25:19 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has left #lisp 10:25:29 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:25:53 K is Norwegian, you might have more luck under C 10:27:43 Kryptografi er ingen kunst alt jeg trenger å gjøre er å kjøre babel. 10:29:57 rotfl 10:32:34 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-82-81-142-61.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:33:20 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 10:34:24 *younder* has just been though a book on Ntural language Recognition 10:34:42 Natural even 10:35:49 recommended though you need to use Python 10:35:59 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:36:19 for this book 10:37:20 Anyhow it is free and I loved it.. 10:38:06 http://www.nltk.org/book 10:38:41 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-82-81-150-81.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:39:26 Natural Language Processing with Python 10:40:01 I would prefer lisp, but whatever 10:41:07 *younder* really likes Python 10:41:49 I have to make myself write in Python (as I work with it) after I discovered lisp. but probably my favourite language after lisp %) 10:42:11 cl-python is the thing I like :) 10:42:21 though I have not tried it a lot. 10:43:56 I wonder if it is still being worked on, btw 10:44:27 13% of all programmers know Python.. 10:44:28 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 10:45:03 That amount's to millions.. 10:45:36 know is a strange word %) 10:45:46 you mean they understand lambda abstraction and the concept of using indentation to denote code blocks? then i'm in that 13%, otherwise pretty much not... 10:45:48 :) 10:45:50 *serichsen* cringes at the apostrophe catastrophe 10:46:07 LuckBringer [n=dlah@89.164.170.100] has joined #lisp 10:46:34 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:46:43 Python uses list comprehentions 10:46:45 younder: isn't that 1.3%? :P 10:46:50 no 10:47:17 Hijacked from Haskell 10:47:44 where is that stat from? 10:48:12 From www.python.org 10:48:37 younder, vodka was good but the meat was rotten 10:48:52 Python works! 10:49:13 *weirdo* wonders how natural language parsing can be done without strong ai 10:49:15 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 10:49:37 NLP is a subfield of AI 10:49:44 wierdo: It can't the book explains why? 10:49:45 weirdo: quite a lot can be done without AGI 10:50:08 p_l, yeah. vodka's good, except for the meat 10:50:18 http://translationparty.com/ 10:50:50 wierdo: It can't! The book explains why. 10:50:51 NLP doesn't imply understanding the concepts used by people who talk, though certain amount of it is necessary for anything meaningful to be done with results 10:50:56 sorry 10:51:06 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 10:51:30 -!- ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:51:37 weirdo: fyi, translationparty uses AFAIK Google Translate, which is a (mostly) statistical translation system, not traditional NLP one 10:51:59 No it uses Baesian statistics 10:52:09 much better 10:52:36 it globs groups of words 10:53:11 younder: actually, full NLP system would be capable of much better translation, but fully functional one would require AGI 10:53:51 jikanter [n=jordan@24-148-12-119.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 10:53:51 P_i: perhaps, but we are not quite there yet 10:54:31 younder: sure 10:55:02 well once AGE becomes reality, i'm gonna lay in bed all day, just me and my drugs 10:55:26 *p_l* was planning on merging of AI and human conciousness 10:55:29 AGI? 10:55:36 not AGE 10:55:48 yeah, right 10:55:55 Artificial General Intelligence. IMHO better term than "Strong AI" 10:56:13 *p_l* still shivers recalling last question on his AI exam paper 10:56:30 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-151.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 10:56:34 btw, how can general intelligence ever be "artificial"? 10:56:58 weirdo: frankly speaking, we could drop A from AI 10:57:21 wierdo: I prefer machine Intelligence. 10:57:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeboqg4t9vs 10:57:32 for example, for my AI studies, I'm going with a lot of psychology 10:57:34 younder, but we are machines 10:57:39 the future will be LIKE THIS 10:58:20 [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.82.158] has joined #lisp 10:58:34 No cure for younder? ): 10:58:37 *p_l* is actually planning on systematically replacing parts of his body 10:59:33 splittist: No you are suck with me for the next 1000 years.. 11:00:26 afk - going to meeting with my advisor 11:00:51 "suck" is right 11:00:56 weirdo: yes, we are biological macines 11:01:06 machines 11:01:20 younder: enough, thanks. Lisp-related talk or nothing, please 11:01:40 yes, so "machine intelligence" is a pleonasm, since by definition everything capable of intelligence is a machine 11:01:48 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:02:21 << not SBCL 11:03:06 Penggu [n=me@222.96.96.58.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #lisp 11:03:17 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 11:03:30 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-15-87.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:03:33 hi guys. i need to how many elements of two lists match, in sequence, from both their rears 11:03:42 -!- LuckBringer [n=dlah@89.164.170.100] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:03:48 i know (Reverse 11:03:53 and (eq 11:04:06 but the looping is killing me 11:04:12 and something tells me there's a better way 11:04:17 you can do it recursively 11:04:31 you need no loop use find 11:04:40 (find 11:04:46 *Penggu* runs off to doco 11:05:06 mismatch 11:07:09 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 11:07:51 as piso says. Ignore everything before 11:08:34 fuck off xof 11:10:00 no, fuck you, younder 11:10:09 ?? 11:10:44 everytime you swear on the internet, the spaghettimonster kills a kitten 11:10:52 please do not swear on the internet 11:10:53 lol 11:10:55 think of the kittens 11:11:29 i'd rather kill the flying spaghetti monster 11:11:40 so no poor kittens would suffer 11:11:52 stop appyling logicto the FSM 11:12:00 logic to* 11:12:14 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 11:12:56 i can invent a god that can kill FSM 11:13:09 fsm ? 11:13:18 Penggu, flying spaghetti monster 11:13:19 ah 11:13:22 Ok, I will try for the hell of it not to swear so mother fuck'igly hard eqbab 11:13:25 nvm 11:15:39 oops, that AI got a bit out of control.. Think I will shut up now.. Sorry 11:16:15 namor_ [n=namor@87.77.188.94] has joined #lisp 11:16:58 -!- gko [n=gko@211.22.47.2] has quit [Success] 11:17:10 -!- namor_ is now known as namor 11:18:20 *younder* apologizes for PANDORA's manners 11:19:48 itze [n=itze@77-22-106-8-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:21:05 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:22 (zero-or-value potentially-nil-value) ?? 11:23:05 ah freaking hanoi 11:23:16 anyone know a nice heuristic ? 11:23:17 I don't know,my AI knew (nearly) all Lisp, it just wasn't programmed to handle abuse. 11:23:24 for *3 pegs* 11:23:57 Penggu: why do you want a heuristic when you have a deterministic algorithm? 11:24:08 we're doign state space search 11:24:46 and we need to come up with a heur given a particualr state 11:24:51 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [] 11:24:54 (which will compare to possible states at the time) 11:25:11 given a numebr of operators 11:25:21 (e.g. moveAtoB, moveBtoC) etc 11:25:46 so bascically the heur needs to look at teh mess at any point in time, and work out the next best move 11:26:15 ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 11:26:33 when you have a recrsive actually *doing* the thing, it's easy 11:26:43 but this is a mess 11:26:57 Conway's "games" may be of use. 11:27:27 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:29:53 Alice_I_W [i=stepnem@server1.bshellz.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:25 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surreal_number 11:33:07 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:33:09 ASau` [n=user@host17-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 11:34:29 The AI did pretty good though.. It fooled you for a while! 11:34:46 lol 11:35:49 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 11:36:51 You know it is little more than a swada generator trained for 1000000 responses. (OK so the Bayesian logic is a bit beyond..) 11:38:22 fxr [n=user@a.mx.core.gen.tr] has joined #lisp 11:38:35 -!- ASau [n=user@host17-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:39:10 Next time around I will log it in as Pandora (My machine name) to make it easier to distiguish 11:39:46 weirdo, I still can't get my program to find your collate package. I'm either badly misunderstanding the documentation, or else there is something wrong with my installation, or both. Even if I manually load collate, I get: package "COLLATE" not found 11:39:58 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:40:16 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:41:08 weirdo, by documentation, I mean all I can find about packages and asdf. 11:41:19 lat_, load "collate.lisp" 11:42:11 are you sure that the file has DEFPACKAGE on top of it? 11:42:25 i mean, i had lots of troubles with git, maybe it's not over yet 11:43:19 weirdo, I'll check. 11:47:07 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 11:47:29 sohu: Does this work? http://paste.lisp.org/+1VUS 11:47:34 alvinator [n=alvinato@121.1.55.58] has joined #lisp 11:47:48 s/sohu/sohum 11:48:50 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-164.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:48:52 weirdo, my program finds it now. I was loading collate.asd instead of collate.lisp. 11:48:58 :) 11:50:57 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:52:55 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:53:08 weirdo, thanks! Now perhaps I can do some actual testing. 11:53:18 lat_, :) 11:54:53 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:56:27 Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:44 is there an official git repo for ironclad? 12:00:19 I suppose I can live with darcs 12:00:35 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 12:01:06 IIANM, it's being maintained in a non-public mercurial repository 12:01:16 Fare: i could live with _any_ ironclad repo, but there's none (public) 12:01:31 attila_lendvai, there's the clbuild mirror one 12:01:40 http://common-lisp.net/project/clbuild/mirror/ironclad 12:01:56 I see tiger in it, but not tth 12:02:02 scottmaccal [n=scott@169.244.94.54] has joined #lisp 12:02:14 -!- emmy [n=em@cpe-98-14-154-71.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:02:22 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:02:25 heh, we use the clbuild mirror already... i forgot 12:03:14 *Fare* doesn't feel like adding tth to ironclad just right now, but wants to use tthsum as the preferred way to checksum source files for contents-based dependencies for xcvb... 12:03:29 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:03:58 *Fare* also wonders whether to have xcvb-master depend on anything, or have it roll its own run-program wrapper... 12:04:37 Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:33 -!- ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:06:42 -!- mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6B8E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 12:07:28 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 12:08:03 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@lawn-143-215-206-166.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:08:35 frankly, how important is in-image compilation? 12:09:20 how else would you do it? 12:11:30 uh, hack with SLIME, then recompile a new image when you're done debugging 12:11:41 Fare, otherwise i'd get distracted by shiny objects when faced with a compilation-cycle 12:11:46 and read /b/ for the rest of the day 12:12:00 the horror, the horror 12:12:00 what is /b/ ? 12:12:09 Fare, http://img.4chan.org/b/ ; NSFW 12:13:02 haskell is pretty acceptable with ghci 12:13:16 i mean, it's nowhere near slime, but it's pretty unusual for a static language 12:13:25 fare: we are pretty much already working from images... 12:13:35 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 12:13:35 -!- namor [n=namor@87.77.188.94] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:14:01 attila_lendvai, I mean, do you use ASDF from images? Or just SLIME? 12:14:32 and is it OK to use run-program while requesting image-compilation, or are you having your own SIGCHLD handler? 12:15:19 -!- jikanter [n=jordan@24-148-12-119.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:15:26 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Client Quit] 12:15:40 my current plan for in-image XCVB use (beside using the ASDF backend) is that you'd run-program an XCVB process that would do all the compilation out-of-image then tell you what to load, and how to update your configuration. 12:15:51 jikanter [n=jordan@24-148-12-119.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:16:33 XCVB would do all the tth checksumming on its side, so you don't have to have ironclad in your image -- or anything beside xcvb-master, which ought to be smaller than ASDF. 12:16:55 ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 12:17:27 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [] 12:17:42 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:34 -!- Penggu [n=me@222.96.96.58.static.exetel.com.au] has quit ["guru meditation error"] 12:21:00 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:22:04 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-84-210.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 12:22:16 weirdo, it worked only once. Now (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op 'unique) yields NIL. 12:22:26 unique? 12:23:02 lat_, well, the return value of load-op is irrelevant. if it returns, it works 12:23:25 if you load the same system twice on the same image, it doesn't get loaded again 12:23:42 weirdo, unique is my program that depends on yours. 12:24:06 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-30-58.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:24:11 load-op only loads the system if it hasn't been loaded yet, or one of the components was modified 12:26:35 weirdo, ok. 12:26:57 there a :force param, though it loads everything again, not just the single system 12:28:16 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 12:29:41 fare: what we do is this: we have a build.exe (saved executable sbcl image), it exec's another sbcl through a generated shell script to build and save an image. we have separate image'es for working on separate stuff (e.g. having all the deps of a project in an image, except the project -- making it ideal for restart, asdf-load-op project, hack cycles) 12:30:17 that build.exe is probably quite similar to xcvb, but a specialized incarnation 12:30:26 yes, I also have staged builds. 12:30:34 but levy can tell you much more about it... 12:30:53 (though at ITA, most of the build is in a big mess of the last stage) 12:31:04 he's online here at CET night this week, more from next week 12:31:15 CET night? 12:31:24 oh, night in CET timezone. 12:31:38 weirdo, sorting is not working. Does this look correct: (setq *words* (stable-sort *words* #'collate:string<)) 12:32:09 so do you ever/often re-compile on top of the current image with asdf:load-op ? 12:35:55 (success for xcvb would be to be used outside ITA) 12:36:04 (as well as confirmed inside ITA) 12:36:50 fare: i personally rarely, levy does more often but i instinctly avoid it to keep the problem space on minimal size when something goes wrong 12:37:24 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-61-90-103-135.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:37:50 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-11-46-203.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 12:38:04 pr_ [n=pr@p579CA877.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:08 fare: if it's not a huge pain to move to xcvb (e.g. we don't need to deal with makefile's, just an asdf:load-op equivalent), and it solves the conditional loading of file that asdf-system-connections fails to do, then i think we are all in 12:38:27 s/file/system 12:39:47 I don't have an asdf:load-op equivalent yet, but the asdf backend can already flatten your whole dependencies into a single asdf system that will load correctly. 12:40:10 I'm not sure what you mean by "conditional loading of file", though 12:40:38 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 12:41:02 the way I see it, you divide your system into subsystems, and if you want the whole connected shebang, you load the bigger system that has explicit connections, you don't kludge around a small system that tries to automagically grow connections. 12:41:19 i.e. the small thing and the big thing are distinct entities 12:41:37 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:41:42 example: cl-ppcre-unicode vs cl-ppcre 12:41:45 serichsen pasted "clsql create-view-from-class -- what am I doing wrong?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87941 12:42:18 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 12:42:56 fare: like we have cl-perec, and it has some extras for swank to customize the inspection of persistent-object's. i want the swank integration only be loaded when swank was otherwise loaded... 12:43:24 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-104-121.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:44:02 rdd [n=rdd@83.250.145.223] has joined #lisp 12:44:08 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@217.18.135.36] has joined #lisp 12:44:23 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-104-121.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:44:26 fare: i'm not sure i follow you, but now we switched to explicit dependencies, like cl-perec.asd and cl-perec+swank.asd... and it's an annoying step back from asdf-system-connections in many cases (ignoring the brokenness of asdf-s-c here) 12:45:41 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Read error: 128 (Network is unreachable)] 12:45:51 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-104-121.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 12:48:03 if you can propose me a coherent semantics for some build file declarations, I can include them. 12:48:24 but yes, it looks like the sensible thing is to have a cl-perec-swank system. 12:48:39 which can be trivially written in one or two lines. 12:49:05 (ok, let's count characters -- about a hundred characters, maybe two) 12:49:57 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-xeauebqkeklieswd] has quit [K-lined] 12:51:43 fare: it's not about the effort it takes to write the extra system... imagine you have 20 systems that integrate to swank, but on the production build you don't want swank in the image. then you realize that you want to connect and asdf:load-system swank. then you have 20 foo+swank.asd to load... when it could have already happened if there' a declarative way of describing optional deps 12:52:28 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp042.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:53:48 benny [n=benny@i577A06DC.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:54:44 the way *I* would do it is have the top system produced by a (Lisp) script that does or does not include the swank things with a simple mapcar. 12:56:40 now, some forward-chaining logic could be added to xcvb in some additional pass, but that would be way messy 12:57:33 xcvb is designed around the pure functional idea that a given specification means the same thing independently of further context 12:57:47 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-93-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:19 mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.70.172] has joined #lisp 12:58:25 having the same build specification mean something different when you join it with another is suspect -- I'd rather keep such things as a layer on top of xcvb than inside. 12:58:50 sounds reasonable 12:59:26 at ITA, I had a script like that that lists the things you're going to include in the Res system. 13:00:27 -!- younder [n=jpthing@113.14.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 13:00:34 it's been made obsolete by the fact that our system ended up not being built modularly after all. 13:00:42 -!- araujo [n=moz@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:01:09 but could be resurrected as we made make it modular again. 13:02:12 crod [n=cmell@121.186.10.225] has joined #lisp 13:02:14 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441541.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 13:02:32 (flet ((with-swank (x) (format nil "~A+swank" x))) (if swankp (mapcar #'with-swank systems) systems)) 13:03:10 (also, we've decided to always build with swank, so we test what we ship and ship what we test) 13:03:23 (but that's another debate) 13:03:40 *attila_lendvai* needs to actually spend time with xcvb before brainstorming in the air 13:04:00 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:51 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 13:08:40 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@169.244.94.54] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:08:53 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:41 trebor_dki pasted "reading a csv-file, too slow" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87944 13:10:51 ramus`_ [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-154-251.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:55 <_3b> trebor_dki: (coerce ... 'vector) ? 13:12:30 <_3b> ah, never mind 13:12:46 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-104.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:13:18 <_3b> trebor_dki: have you tried any existing csv libs? 13:13:45 i tried fare-csv, but it was slower, because i still have to convert strings to numbers. 13:13:58 spilman [n=spilman@90.59.68.9] has joined #lisp 13:14:38 _3b: what csv-libs do you mean (i searched on cliki.net)? what places to i have to scan for cl-libs? 13:14:56 ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.30] has joined #lisp 13:15:07 -!- jikanter [n=jordan@24-148-12-119.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:15:14 <_3b> that was probably the one i was thinking of 13:15:15 trebor_dki, you can do it very fast with cl-irregsexp 13:15:50 crod: thanks, /me googling 13:16:47 -!- crod is now known as c|mell 13:16:49 freiksenet [n=freiksen@80.221.41.202] has joined #lisp 13:16:52 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@121.186.10.225] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:16:58 c|mell [n=cmell@121.186.10.225] has joined #lisp 13:17:23 trebor_dki, i can cook you up the magic formula if you like -- do you want to read integers or floats? 13:18:03 salva [n=salva@91.117.11.105] has joined #lisp 13:18:05 is it possible to add docstring to classes in CLOS? 13:18:38 <_3b> freiksenet: (:documentation "...") 13:19:34 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 13:19:37 _3b: yeah I tried it already ) I figured it out now, I have to put it at the end of class it seems, before slots. 13:19:37 jikanter [n=jordan@24.148.12.119] has joined #lisp 13:19:51 it would be cool if docstrings would be handled the same way around common lisp %) 13:19:56 lat__ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 13:19:56 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.143.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:20:08 If I break via CL:BREAK and I'm in SLIME is there some easy way to start stepping? 13:20:40 i believe 's' .. (but see 'h') 13:20:49 c|mell: 2 columns are integers (first two), the rest are floats, but if it makes life easier, i would fall back on floats. 13:21:04 c|mell: thanks for the offer anyway. 13:21:19 s/anyway/btw 13:21:39 -!- salva [n=salva@91.117.11.105] has quit [Client Quit] 13:25:33 trebor_dki, well if you pick one it is faster -- do you have a fixed number of columns? 13:26:33 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:27:26 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:27:36 lnostdal: hmmm. I'm can't tell that that's doing anything. The screen flashes but i'm still at the break. 13:28:08 <_3b> gigamonkey: did you compile with debug 3? 13:28:33 _3b: nope. How much do I have to compile that way? Just the function with the BREAK? 13:28:49 <_3b> whatever you want to be able to step through i think 13:29:01 C-u C-c C-c to the rescue 13:29:54 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:29:56 Ah, that helped. 13:30:27 btw, what are the asdf-system-connections failure scenarios? 13:33:32 <_3b> hmm, does compiling with optimize debug force stepping somehow? 13:35:39 fare: first of all it always recompiles dependencies (there's a :force t in it somewhere, but without that it fails to load anything). then levy was talking about some non-determinism, but i think that's a user bug in our (missing) deps... 13:35:46 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:36:12 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:21 <_3b> looks like it is only happening in slime, not running sbcl directly 13:37:17 <_3b> and not in a freshly started slime, wonder what i loaded that broke everything this time :( 13:37:49 setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:38:30 dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:42 I'm probably missing something stupidly obvious, but why do I get an error from SBCL telling me: The value "^@^@^@^@^CHí 13:39:51 uhm... oops... 13:40:27 cc 13:40:28 c|mell: sorry, i had to answer a call - no, the number of columns is not constant. 13:40:50 I get: The value "" is not of type CHARACTER 13:41:04 for a string with some weird characters in it... 13:41:16 when I try to concatenate that using type 'string 13:41:19 rstandy [n=rastandy@pc212-189-140-32.unile.it] has joined #lisp 13:42:00 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:42:12 shouldn't that be possible?? I.e. I think it comes down to: (concatenate 'string "weird characters" "some other string") ??? 13:42:40 thijso: what is the actual code? 13:43:18 What's the clean way to map from integers to letters of the alphabet, with 1->#\A, 2-> #\B etc.? 13:43:57 splittist: i think i would make a vector of letters. 13:44:01 thijso pasted "error on concatenate" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87945 13:44:10 Xach: ^^ 13:44:22 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:44:25 Xach: yeah. Thanks. 13:44:39 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 13:45:34 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has joined #lisp 13:47:09 hello 13:47:25 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-0-199.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:26 Yo fe[nl]ix, wassup? 13:47:31 hi 13:48:12 thijso: that suggest to me that PACK is not working properly. 13:48:18 splittist: the sun is shining, birds are singing and I'm at work 13:49:16 whee, semi-sane sb-md5 code on x86-64 13:49:40 ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-68-109.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:49:51 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 13:50:12 thijso: what does pack do? 13:50:17 mvillene1ve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:50:21 froydnj, hi - does ironclad support tth? 13:50:49 Fare: I don't even know what tth is :) 13:50:57 tiger tree hash 13:51:18 the correct/standard way to hash big blobs 13:51:24 ah, no. 13:51:35 reference? 13:51:35 for storage / p2p / etc. 13:52:04 http://www.google.com/search?q=tiger+tree+hash 13:52:19 used by gnutella and more 13:52:30 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 13:52:44 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:09 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:53:13 -!- mvillene1ve is now known as mvilleneuve 13:53:24 (I think I convinced ABS to use it for his archival system Ugarit) 13:54:07 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 13:54:14 hm, doesn't tell me *why* storage/p2p apps use it, although I can kinda guess 13:54:40 the tree hash thing means you can separately hash and cache/exchange parts of the file 13:55:21 Xach: hm... 13:55:22 so you don't have to receive a 2PB file only to find that it fails checksum and you have no idea why 13:55:24 or wher 13:55:25 e 13:55:51 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 13:56:20 instead, you get checksums at every level of the tree, and if the sum fails anywhere, the failure is located, and the bad disk or DoSing node can be identified. 13:56:59 and you don't have to re-get the whole thing, only the parts that failed. 13:57:07 Xach: if I manually try a (concatenate 'string "..") with the same string I get from pack I get the exact same error. 13:57:23 thijso, what does pack do? 13:57:38 also, Tiger algorithm looks quite resilient against collisions 13:57:51 yeah, better than SHA1 and MD5, anyway 13:58:06 thijso: would you please show that code, then? 13:58:40 froydnj, so, if there would be a tth soon in ironclad without me having to do it, that would be great, and I could use it for XCVB caching of objects and images... 13:58:56 Fare: pack is from cl-pack, which does what perl pack does: creates a string to pass around between services etc... 13:59:13 thijso, does it produce strings or vectors of bytes? 13:59:19 if the guy has a clue, not strings. 13:59:29 Xach: for example: (concatenate 'string "^@^@" " bla") also gives me an error 13:59:39 Fare: strings, so maybe that's the problem... 13:59:53 Xach: ^@ above is character code 00 14:00:02 (or should be) 14:00:11 thijso: what implementation? 14:00:24 works for me on SBCL. 14:00:25 thijso: (yeah, i got that ^@ in emacs with C-q C-space) 14:00:29 Xach: uhm, you mean what lisp? SBCL 14:00:32 it also works for me on sbcl. 14:00:39 ah... weirdness... 14:01:16 maybe too old SBCL? (1.0.29) 14:01:20 or slime/swank... 14:01:21 ? 14:01:39 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:01:41 oops, sorry, I'm running SBCL 1.0.28.69 14:01:52 works for me in 1.0.4 14:02:00 -!- rdd [n=rdd@83.250.145.223] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:02:10 Fare: I don't even know what sort of interface it should have. 14:02:28 well, one sequential interface 14:02:42 Fare: I've added a walk-directory to iolib 14:02:57 "compute hash tree from stream with given digest and block size"? 14:06:36 fe[nl]ix, I hope it doesn't use the braindead "breadth-first" argument for what is actually "depth-first but examine the parent before the children"... 14:06:57 Xach: I'm an idiot... I was testing with the error string... and got the error string back, thinking it was the error, but it's just giving me the concatenated string... ;) 14:07:04 -!- jlf [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:07:04 c|mell pasted "strange csv reader with cl-irregsexp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87946 14:07:04 Fare: the source is there for you to read 14:07:10 so, it works for me from the repl... but not in the code... 14:07:17 froydnj, there's a tth page somewhere with the specific algorithm used and test vectors 14:07:39 http://open-content.net/specs/draft-jchapweske-thex-02.html 14:07:48 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 14:07:54 trebor_dki, actually it seems i still didn't implement dedicated float reading; if that's too slow then i can implove it 14:08:37 trebor_dki, *improve, and do you really not know how many columns? if you did we could do much much better . . . 14:08:58 although... what slime debugger actually says it's doing is: (SB-KERNEL:VECTOR-TO-VECTOR* #("^@^@ ... ") STRING) 14:09:31 so it looks like it's trying to work over a vector of strings? Is that tripping it up, maybe? 14:09:45 thijso: i still think there is a problem with PACK. 14:11:03 Xach: you do? Because it just returns the string (which should possibly be a vector of bytes)... 14:11:42 gigamonkey, you f'ed up on this "breadth-first" thingie, you know. 14:11:58 maybe you should fix next version of PCL 14:12:01 thijso: Clearly some of your assumptions are not holding up if you're getting an error. In the absence of actually trying things out myself, that's my best guess at the moment. 14:12:28 and/or the only version, and the cl-fad library 14:12:42 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-36.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:53 scottmaccal [n=scott@169.244.94.54] has joined #lisp 14:12:55 Xach: yeah... 14:12:59 thijso, use printf-debugging and/or trace to see the intermediate results 14:13:16 gigamonk`, did you see my blaming you a few lines above? 14:13:17 Fare: yeah... gonna do that. 14:13:41 is there a reason that the slime debugger doesn't actually tell me on which line the error was located? 14:13:42 Fare: whoops. no. hang on. 14:14:05 minion: logs 14:14:06 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 14:14:10 thijso: just use "v" to jump to the exact form. 14:14:19 acpound [n=alex@dhcp-044-057.cns.ohiou.edu] has joined #lisp 14:14:26 gigamonk`, it starts with me responding to fe[nl]ix 14:14:55 Ah, the breadth-first thing? 14:15:07 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey` 14:15:39 lisp noob here. can anyone help me with an issue im having? trying examples from Practical Common Lisp. regards definig global variables 14:15:56 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-30-58.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:15:58 acpound: gigamonkey can help, maybe. and maybe others. 14:15:59 -!- gigamonkey` is now known as gigamonkey 14:16:09 acpound: say hello to gigamonkey -- he's the author. 14:16:29 ah i see :) hello 14:16:34 hello. 14:16:38 Xach: ah... didn't notice that the cursor itself was positioned (the flash that emacs does of the whole defun threw me off) 14:16:40 rtoym: ping 14:16:44 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-68-109.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:16:46 what's the problem, though? If there's code you want us to look at, put it up at 14:17:33 -!- ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.30] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:18:42 Fare: What's the problem? (I don't see any breadth-first in my version of the lib. Maybe Edi added it to cl-fad.) 14:19:45 acpound pasted "cd-database" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87948 14:20:17 okay pasted the code and the result of compiling it. basically the first non REPL example from the book 14:20:53 acpound: seems like you did not evaluate the DEFVAR form. 14:22:08 Xach: can you clarify what you mean by that? sorry but this is like day 1 for me... besides 10 weeks of scheme i took about 3 years ago 14:22:40 acpound: how did you compile this code? 14:22:47 acpound: type (defvar *db* nil) into the repl, for example, and i think you'll find the problem goes away. 14:22:55 acpound: or put the whole thing into a file and (load "file.lisp") 14:23:11 ok, maybe edi did. Whoever added that to cl-fad screwed up. 14:23:33 ahh okay i see. from the code buffer i was using C-c C-c to compile and then trying to use add-recrod from the REPL 14:23:54 acpound: ok, then use C-c C-c on the defvar form 14:24:18 C-c C-l to load the whole file 14:24:19 -!- amaron [n=amaron@93.86.161.198] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:24:30 my apologies to you 14:24:58 (I admit I skipped over your book) 14:25:29 No worries. Just give Edi a beatdown next time you see him. ;-) 14:25:47 will be hard, he's heavier than I 14:25:52 cl-fad was just updated today 14:25:56 okay got it. didn't realize the difference between C-c C-c and C-c C-l. Makes sense now. For future reference what do you mean when you say 'form'? 14:25:58 and I might not see him in a while 14:25:58 maybe it's already fixed? 14:25:59 stassats`: C-c C-l, or C-c C-k? 14:26:15 acpound: A form is a function/macro invocation 14:26:37 okay thats what i figured. just checking. appreciate the help 14:27:05 the darcs version from http://common-lisp.net/~loliveira/ediware/cl-fad is still in blatant error 14:27:07 Makoryu: not really. 14:27:16 Makoryu: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_f.htm#form is the definition 14:28:03 acpound, form, sexp, same difference 14:28:12 Makoryu: C-c C-l 14:28:31 Makoryu: C-c C-k will compile it beforehand 14:29:44 amaron [n=amaron@93.86.161.198] has joined #lisp 14:30:12 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 14:30:41 is there a slime command to comment out the current form? i want to #'slime-insert-balanced-comments a mixin class, not the whole direct-superclasses list. 14:30:58 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.93.43] has joined #lisp 14:31:56 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:32:03 #+nil not good enough? (or #-(and) if you prefer?) 14:32:03 emacs-dwim: isn't that #+(or) or your favourite variation? 14:32:32 -!- Joreji_ [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:32:57 splittist: good enough. 14:34:03 luis: new cl-fad release for your ediware repos... 14:34:10 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:34:47 -!- pemryan is now known as pem 14:35:13 attila_lendvai, does it fix the walk-directory interface? 14:35:26 fe[nl]ix, you should use :before and :after instead of :breadth-first and :depth-first 14:35:54 probably include a disclaimer in the docs for people tempted to use :breadth-first 14:36:23 fare: nope, it just gets rid of the #.(require :sb-executable) silliness in its .asd file 14:37:11 that sounds silly indeed. 14:37:42 splittist: tempted to post to cll saying "I _am_ a lawyer"? 14:37:47 Fare: wtf, did you actually take a look at the code ? 14:39:41 *splittist* reads c.l.l 14:39:42 what happened to spam on CLL? 14:39:53 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 14:41:07 -!- pr_ [n=pr@p579CA877.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 14:42:17 ok... the problem is that I'm not doing (concatenate 'string ... but (map 'string ... 14:42:23 ~. 14:42:26 fe[nl]ix, :depth-first is still wrong! 14:42:31 both are depth-first 14:42:56 stassats`: it does seem to have improved a bit, at least through Google Groups 14:43:06 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:43:11 (Which is a surprise; Google Groups has generally been going to hell) 14:43:13 rsynnott: yeah, i'm talking about google groups 14:43:34 maybe they've improved spam filtering, as compensation for breaking search 14:43:48 -!- ramus`_ is now known as ramus` 14:44:04 unless you actually implement a queue for breadth-first walk 14:44:28 how do i lookup #+ in the hyperspec from slime? 14:44:36 C-d C-h # 14:44:47 rather C-d C-d # 14:45:00 oh crap, first is C-c 14:45:06 lol 14:45:11 i don't remember keys, i just use them 14:45:31 stassats`: thanks -- close enough 14:45:45 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [] 14:47:14 Fare: what about :topdown - like python's os.walk ? 14:48:27 possibly. But :directories :before and :directories :after is OK, too 14:48:39 I don't see what's topdown about it. 14:48:44 maybe 14:48:45 -!- aerique [n=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 14:48:53 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:48:59 splittist: in particular, they are arguing about whether LD_PRELOAD= is "reverse engineering" or "a violation of Lispworks Personal EULA" 14:49:21 real topdown would also mean seeing all the files in the directory before any of its subdirectories 14:49:40 and bottomup would mean seeing all the subdirectories before any file. 14:50:32 Xof - that thread was insane :) 14:50:36 Xof: is it? :) 14:51:00 there is a case for examining the directory object itself (or not examining it) before or after its contents, whether you are walking topdown or bottom up 14:51:05 Its sad that people are so used to not paying for software / music / digital works 14:51:18 Dawgmatix, make it worth their while 14:52:10 *Xach* sold some lisp software on monday to a happy customer 14:52:22 :) 14:53:14 Adlai: I don't know, I'm not a lawyer 14:53:23 Dawgmatix, you don't have to convince everyone to pay everyone else... you just have to convince a few people who will pay YOU. 14:54:08 Xof: what about running in a machine (real or virtual) that has a modified date? 14:55:06 it's definitely not reverse engineering, but probably a violation of their EULA. Now, did they read my End-Seller License? 14:55:21 younder [n=jpthing@113.14.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 14:55:24 http://fare.livejournal.com/21806.html 14:55:54 -!- amaron [n=amaron@93.86.161.198] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:56:54 nvntung [n=user@147.210.246.189] has joined #lisp 14:57:03 hi everyone 14:58:42 i need some suggestions about libraries to create GUI with cl-sdl 14:58:42 -!- seangrove [n=user@98.248.37.94] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:58:42 gtk 14:58:42 varjagg [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 14:59:34 I want to create menu or dialog boxes for interacting to my OpenGL application 14:59:44 -!- lat__ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:01:01 nvntung: why not just write a simple set of widgets that would directly draw what you need? (yea, I know, bad advice, we don't need anymore fragmented, half finished libraries... :P) 15:01:10 -!- varjagg [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Client Quit] 15:02:15 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:02:28 *splittist* returns from c.l.l. 15:03:08 Because it is more work than needed 15:03:23 Non porable 15:03:27 portable 15:04:06 you would need a linux versin a windows version and a macc version 15:04:29 better to use vx_windows or something 15:04:33 I implement in Linux 15:05:26 p_l, or he can use an existing fragmented, half finished library that does that, and save work 15:05:30 In which case I recomend GTK and Glade 15:06:29 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32D4D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:55 luis: here? 15:07:45 younder: if he is drawing to SDL/OpenGL drawable then he doesn't have to worry about portability most of the time 15:08:03 true, except in look and feel 15:08:09 has anyone experience with an error "Attempt to call an undefined alien function. 15:08:20 " in clsql? 15:08:26 better not to do the UI in openGL 15:08:29 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:08:35 do the drawing.. 15:09:14 younder: I encountered some nice GUIs in OpenGL, though 15:09:47 younder: otoh, those were applications where it was more important to have consistent GUI across platforms than conform to platform guidelines 15:10:03 redblue [i=star@ppp193.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:10:13 nvntung: http://common-lisp.net/project/commonqt/ 15:10:45 is it actually possible to fit in normal widget libraries to opengl? 15:10:53 tcr: not really related to SDL though, is it? 15:11:18 Oh I missed that bit. 15:11:50 Still nice for publicity :) 15:12:20 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.223.16] has joined #lisp 15:13:42 gtk-server is a powerful 15:14:53 KingNato_ [n=patno@84-217-6-84.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:55 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:18:07 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:18:07 -!- KingNato_ is now known as KingNato 15:18:49 -!- alvinator [n=alvinato@121.1.55.58] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:20:11 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:12 I am messing up with lispbuilder-sdl. I am going to make a class that can have "surface" object inside. I wonder if I need to garbage collect this surface manually when object is destroyed 15:20:57 freiksenet: Are you successful to install lispbuilder-sdl in your computer? 15:21:08 -!- ASau [n=user@host17-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 15:21:11 marsijanin pasted "Working with serial devices" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87952 15:21:11 nvntung: I just installed it from cl-build 15:21:38 -!- KingNato [n=patno@84-217-6-84.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [] 15:21:59 nvntung: I had not encountered any problems with this installation yet 15:22:35 freiksenet: I installed it one month ago. I met a trouble. 15:22:57 I want to use it for drawing the string and create GUI 15:22:59 -!- cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:24:27 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 15:24:38 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:24:43 how do i filter the debug frames to ones originating in my source file(s)? 15:24:52 error "events" when install lispbuilder-sdl via asdf 15:25:27 erred while invoking # on 15:25:28 # 15:25:28 [Condition of type ASDF:COMPILE-FAILED] 15:25:55 http://www.amazon.com/F-Scientists-Jon-Harrop/product-reviews/0470242116/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1 15:26:11 Jon Harrop is back to haunt us 15:26:38 nvntung: I am not that good at lispbuilder, sorry %) one of the developers of lispbuilder is frequently here, he might have an answer for you 15:26:44 Got all 5 stars reviews on Amazon 15:27:45 younder: what is so bad about this guy? 15:28:05 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:28:11 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 15:28:23 freiksenet: he's a frequent troll on c.l.l 15:28:39 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest94362 15:28:40 freiksenet: Oh he has just been a asshole on comp.lang.lisp 15:28:40 Adlai: he does not like lisp? 15:29:09 not really, and he advertises his books on the Lisp newsgrop. 15:29:12 *group 15:29:20 rstandy` [n=rastandy@212.189.140.32] has joined #lisp 15:29:26 -!- Guest94362 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 15:29:32 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 15:29:44 Adlai: on Amazon he has 2 books on VS and a book for F#. I can't say lisp people are great audience for this kind of books %) 15:30:07 what's VS? I know that he also writes OCaml books 15:30:22 true 15:31:03 In CLL we think of him as Dr. Frog 15:31:04 you can discuss mr. Harrop in ##jdh-fans 15:31:13 not here, please 15:31:56 stassats': no offence, but you really do sound like a wikipedia activist ;) 15:32:59 i am in fact, but that's off-topic too! 15:33:02 djkthx [n=yacin@lawn-143-215-206-166.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 15:39:04 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:39:16 Sorry, it was just on top of my weekly newsletter from amazon.. 15:39:17 common-qt tutorial lisp code links are all busted... 15:39:51 some kind of gitweb oddity. 15:39:54 HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:40:15 milanj [n=milan@77.46.210.169] has joined #lisp 15:40:24 http://www.lichteblau.com/git/?p=commonqt.git;a=tree;f=tutorial ? 15:42:51 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@pc212-189-140-32.unile.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:43:21 ejs [n=eugen@95.135.11.75] has joined #lisp 15:45:56 (defun main ...) :) 15:46:18 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:46:27 I C 15:48:18 alvinator [n=alvinato@121.1.55.58] has joined #lisp 15:48:37 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:49:06 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 15:49:37 Anyone here use Tkinter? 15:50:40 s 15:50:40 oops, sorry 15:51:06 I hate the stuff but I have a client which wants a thinter app written in Lisp updated 15:51:34 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.70.172] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:52:18 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-36.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:53:55 is weak-pointer the thing I should use when I do finalize? I have this foreign stuff that I need to garbage collect - so do I need to create a weakpointer to this object so that I can get this uncollectable data from it on finalize? 15:54:07 No.. ,whatever.. 15:55:32 lichtblau: therep? 15:55:38 freiksenet: That s not a common use of a week pointer, no. It iis common in cachinung etc. 15:56:42 freiksenet: I would make a makro all with-open-file instead. 15:56:48 alla 15:56:54 younder: so what should I use? SBCL manuals says that I can't reference to object or it wont be garbage collected 15:57:08 h3 [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 15:57:37 younder: this is a bit more complex that opening a file ( though maybe I should rethink my algorithm if I get into such situations 15:57:46 freiksenet: you should close over some immediate value, like a handle returned by the os 15:57:48 younder: thanks anyway 15:58:01 freiksenet: the C interface has it's own delete. 15:58:38 -!- rstandy` [n=rastandy@212.189.140.32] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:59:31 It depends what if you wanna close a file, delete a device context, remove allocated RAM.. 15:59:44 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:59:54 Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:16 lispbuilder-sdl manual has "TODO" in garbage collection part. they have "free" function to close "FOREIGN-OBJECTS". 16:00:36 I have a bunch of objects with surfaces in them 16:00:45 free would be the RAM bit. 16:00:57 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.93.43] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:01:04 And I guess I need to collect those surfaces when the objects are collected 16:01:31 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:01:32 does compiler macros have much practical use when you always compile-file everything and use sbcl, which almost always creates a lambda expression, and then calls compile on the lambda expression etc...? 16:01:40 Dont' know, check. 16:02:39 freiksenet: What you want is the (unwind-protect ...) I think 16:02:49 DeusExPikachu: compiler macros are _only_ relevant when compiling things 16:03:30 rpg: t 16:03:39 Good evening! 16:03:41 DeusExPikachu: they have lots of practical use. 16:03:46 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:04:38 xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 16:04:38 younder: thanks, i'll take a look 16:05:00 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:05:39 DeusExPikachu: They can capture special forms of function calls, such as calls without keyword arguments, and call a special version of the callee that avoids argument parsing in that case. 16:05:58 DeusExPikachu: It a compiler-macro is good for dispatching on type at compile time. So say you know the thype of a format string you can compile it at compile time rather than at run time for example 16:06:31 Also with constant arguments 16:06:41 Right. 16:07:06 spec question... why does do typep and subtypep take an &environment arg? is it for use when generating expansions from deftype which use &environment? what is the use of this? 16:07:58 I think it's so that macros later in the file can examine the compilation environment for type definitions that aren't yet in effect in the runtime environment 16:08:05 if the implementation has separate environments 16:08:35 lichtblau: Did you see above note about commonqt web page broken links? 16:08:46 Xof: What do you mean by "separate"? 16:08:50 rpg: yes, I renamed the branch from smoke2 to master 16:09:16 lichtblau: Oh, good. I was afraid it had gone by unnoticed because I didn't aim it at you. 16:09:24 I mean "not the same" 16:10:59 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@169.244.94.54] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:11:58 oh, I see, you mean a separation between the compilation env and the runtime env. 16:11:58 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 16:13:11 no 16:13:26 yes 16:13:26 FWIW and AFAIK, cl-smoke is far more advanced than CommonQt by now 16:13:28 the eval env 16:13:49 each eval get's a new environment 16:14:02 "gets" 16:14:17 sorry 'gets' 16:16:43 cl-smoke still uses mudballs? 16:16:48 lichtblau: did cl-smoke get easier to compile? CommonQT was much easier before 16:17:32 levy_ [n=levy@89.223.130.161] has joined #lisp 16:17:37 Adlai: If you want all the ugly details I suggest 'Lisp in small peaces' by Quinnec 16:17:38 p_l: he has autogenerated .asd files now, but only as a separate download. Might be worth asking him whether he'd be willing to put them into darcs. 16:18:03 so as a followup question, it seems in sbcl, they would have even more use then in an interpreted or mixed implementation, right? 16:18:12 pieces 16:19:15 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 16:19:21 Greetings. 16:19:30 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:19:42 SBCL prefers a compile time solution 16:19:52 good evening 16:20:37 Hello levy_ 16:20:40 DeusExPikachu: Since all code is by default compiled 16:21:05 DeusExPikachu: Even at the command line 16:21:21 younder: aka repl? 16:21:26 rpg_ [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 16:21:28 yes 16:21:28 give piece a chance 16:22:09 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:22:10 I'll have to take some time to learn how to use them properly 16:22:55 Sounds like a good plan. 16:23:04 yes, beach.. I see it 16:24:14 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 16:24:52 I prefer. All I want is Piece. A little peace of Briton, a little piece of France.. 16:25:24 Mel Gibson 16:25:29 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-65-62.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:26:35 Nope, Mel Brooks. 16:26:47 true, silly 16:27:28 Sometimes I think people make errors just to see if anyone is paying attention. 16:28:13 -!- nvntung [n=user@147.210.246.189] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:28:16 -!- dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:28:33 lol, did you notice the peace 16:28:54 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:29:11 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 16:29:31 Yes, but that one wasn't worth correcting. Minor errors are expected, it's the big ones that are interesting. 16:29:59 It is my mistaken attempt at humor 16:31:07 what is the preferred way of launching seperate processes (non lisp like firefox or bash script) from lisp? 16:31:22 *Xach* uses sb-ext:run-program 16:31:26 DeusExPikachu: are you trying to write portable code? 16:31:27 DeusExPikachu: That's implementation dependent. 16:31:45 I tend to use only sbcl, its personal use 16:31:46 minion: trivial-shell 16:31:46 trivial-shell: Trivial shell is a simple platform independent interface to the underlying Operating System. http://www.cliki.net/trivial-shell 16:32:14 Does trivial-shell work on Winders? 16:32:28 running a external program is ALWAYS implementation dependent. Since you use Linux go with Xach's suggestion. 16:32:42 ok 16:34:26 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 16:34:50 Looking at the source, it appears that it does. 16:35:57 I like just how trivial-shell is so... trivial 16:36:16 DeusExPikachu: keep in mind that while sb-ext:run-program will run the program directly, trivial shell runs a shell and then executes your program. 16:36:35 Adlai: right, I understand the diff 16:37:03 Err... for external processes, there is "external program" on cliki. I used it with some success. 16:37:32 Then again, I'm not sure what lisps it's portable to. sb-ext:run-program is always a safe bet. 16:38:12 redline6561: Good reference, I forgot about that and I was referred to it in here within the last month. 16:38:45 tmh: No problem. 16:39:48 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-104-121.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 16:39:55 proun [n=proun@cpe-74-77-140-113.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:40:50 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:41:01 does anyone have a recommendation for a good lib for real-time audio synth? 16:41:02 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@85.4.220.156] has quit ["too silly"] 16:41:55 Intensity [i=[gdYV96b@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 16:42:00 proun: I think there is a commercial outfit with something. 16:42:29 I'm trying to find it. 16:42:51 i saw "common music", but it looks like the new version was redone in scheme 16:42:55 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:43:09 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:43:36 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-0-95.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:39 ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:45 Ugh, I'm running a disk intensive post-processing analysis at the moment and it is causing firefox to stall. 16:45:13 i'd blame swapping 16:45:25 lack of RAM ? 16:45:30 thanks, no rush, i'll hang out if you can find it later 16:46:02 dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:04 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:46:18 No, I have 16G of RAM, it is reading from very large analysis files. It's not swapping, it's just how this software works. 16:46:36 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-15-203.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:46:48 i mean, firefox is swapped 16:46:49 odd that it's hurting firefox much if you're not swapping 16:47:06 tmh, running linux of course? 16:47:12 -!- Addled [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has left #lisp 16:47:15 tmh: Linux is not used to those quantities 16:47:49 Yes, RHEL, and I'm currently using 0% of swap. 16:47:57 Ah, firefox is back. 16:48:12 run it twice so it enters the disk cache 16:48:15 (when matt dillon was on the freebsd project, it had great virtmem management that would run rings around linux) 16:48:24 What I need to do is install 3 more drives and do striped raid. 16:48:48 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 16:48:52 tmh: or reconfigure your schedulers 16:48:52 striped raid is a pain 16:48:54 c|mell: Ugh, don't get me started. FBSD is my preferred OS, but I have to use Linux because of the commercial software. 16:49:33 Just today on ubuntu I had to suggest deleting the lot.. 16:50:06 Don't go there SATA is fat enough 16:50:20 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:50:21 fast 16:50:26 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-48-147.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:50:57 with 1 Gb you might consider a RAM disk though.. 16:51:02 16 16:51:25 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84.217.6.84] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:51:25 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 16:51:26 tmh: be careful with the RAID; a lot of hardware will slow you down more than anything else 16:51:27 c|mell: If the FBSD linuxalator was 64bit, I'd still be using FBSD. I was using it to run this software when I only needed the 32bit version and the performance was identical. 16:51:50 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-itfcjwkfpypcyypd] has joined #lisp 16:52:07 rindolf [n=shlomi@62.219.139.216] has joined #lisp 16:52:13 c|mell: In fact, another Linux FEM code that I benchmarked on FBSD ran slightly faster than native on Linux. 16:52:29 rsynnott: Ok, thanks. 16:53:08 *rsynnott* has had more than he would like to do with cheap RAID hardware over the last few years 16:53:44 minion: marsijanin, memo from ryepup: is that serial port code in a library somewhere? If not, mind if I package one up with a BSD license? 16:53:45 what would you do otherwise? 16:54:14 ryepup: try "minion: memo for marsijanin: ..." 16:54:28 (the best being, on a server which had to do thousands of db queries a second, finding out that the RAID card was advertises as 'perfect for the budget-concious workstation' or something) 16:54:29 rsynnott: You too? I thought it was too archane.. 16:54:32 performed like it, too 16:54:37 minion: memo for marsijanin: is that serial port code in a library somewhere? If not, mind if I package one up with a BSD license? 16:54:37 Remembered. I'll tell marsijanin when he/she/it next speaks. 16:55:00 (thanks, I picked the wrong example from my logs to use as a template) 16:55:26 A SERIAL port? 16:55:34 They still exist? 16:55:38 over usb 16:56:16 I think serial ports are awesome, I remember I used basic to send signals to one 16:56:45 you can't send stuff to USB ports with BASIC :'( 16:58:00 I C.. I didn't know that, my condolenceses. 16:58:32 freiksenet: you can't do a videoconference with a telegraph either :) 16:58:40 timor [n=martin@87.234.97.27] has joined #lisp 16:58:53 that is not true. 16:59:21 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06e5ca.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:59:32 serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06e5ca.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:00 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:00:00 fe[nl]ix: you could, if only you could press the button fast enough :) 17:00:15 very low resolution 17:00:17 (early photo-transmission systems did just that) 17:00:18 maybe 10x10 17:00:39 perhaps you could send an animated favicon 17:01:51 ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-68-109.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:02:03 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:02:43 proun: Still here? 17:03:01 rotzak: I''m talking about 720p, 60fps video 17:03:09 tmh: yes i am 17:03:13 proun: Check out 'Signal Inference' -> http://www.siginf.com/ 17:03:57 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:03:57 freiksenet: seriosly you should learn C! 17:04:34 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:04:40 tmh: thanks, will have a look. was hoping to find something free to experiment with, oh well 17:06:06 proun: Ok. If it's more than just a hobby project, you could always email them describing what you want to do an see if their code would do it and if so, how you could use it. 17:06:59 I have NEVER come across a library as complete as the Natural Language Toolkit (nltk) in python. 17:07:11 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-ccrxhddssrkpelpm] has joined #lisp 17:07:25 Addled [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has joined #lisp 17:07:44 Making a lisp equivalent will take time.. (I'm on it) 17:08:16 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:08:38 mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.70.177] has joined #lisp 17:10:20 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:10:30 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:11:24 You might have noticed my chat equal earlier today? 17:11:28 all bot 17:12:06 are you a bot younder? 17:12:18 That was cool, nobody noticed the difference.. 17:12:34 c|mell: not at the moment 17:12:39 tell me more about nobody noticed the difference 17:12:56 I could have told you that all the time 17:13:04 Is it because nobody noticed the difference that you came to see me? 17:13:06 scottmaccal [n=scott@169.244.94.54] has joined #lisp 17:13:09 lol 17:13:23 eliza! 17:13:25 minion: is younder a bot? 17:13:26 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 17:14:18 ok, you have had your fun.. But mostly it was a resounding sucess. 17:14:35 This boy can beat the Turing test! 17:14:40 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:14:47 success 17:14:53 maybe you should take a good long hard look at yourself younder; can you pass the turing test? 17:15:12 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-itfcjwkfpypcyypd] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:15:16 rotfl, of cource not 17:17:46 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:19:29 -!- andelf [n=andelf@119.118.229.47] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:21:07 hello. how do i convert an integer into a double-float? i tried (coerce 'double-float (float 123)) but that does not work and i do not really like this (+ 0.0d0 (float 123)). can someone point me to what i am obviously overlooking? 17:21:31 Sorry I HAD you (not really) 17:22:36 trebor_dki, (coerce 123 'double-float) 17:22:42 (float 123 1.0d0) 17:23:01 Just drop the (float..) bit and use the string 17:23:30 -!- ejs [n=eugen@95.135.11.75] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:23:56 Xachs approach is the most efficient, I think 17:24:05 trebor_dki: The coerce form you provided is not valid. The addition form you provided doesn't need the float form. 17:24:30 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:25:50 ouch, thanks c|mell Xach tmh younder ... 17:26:52 -!- Addled [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has left #lisp 17:27:09 I think it is the Pandora flash application in Firefox that doesn't do well when it can't have access to the disk. 17:27:48 And that, folks, was the tmh "Non Sequitur" of the day. 17:27:49 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:28:03 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-244-138.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 17:28:47 sbcl will optimize the (coerce x 'double-float) to call the double float convertor function, the same with the (float x 0d0) 17:30:13 float is implemented in terms of coerce 17:30:25 ahh 17:31:13 whidden [n=williamh@host242.155.212.204.conversent.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:30 Another reason you shouldn't try to perform micro-optimization, the compiler is usually much smarter at such things. 17:32:05 *Xach* used to write #.(char-code #\x) because he thought it would be "faster" 17:33:08 You are saying I't won't expand at compile time? 17:33:37 Or that #\x does 17:33:52 so it is unneccesary 17:33:56 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:34:13 *younder* suspects the latter 17:34:49 attila lendvai was talking about an awesome partial evaluator so that these special cased optimisations might no longer be necessary 17:35:07 ... is plexippus always that slow? 17:35:15 ok share.. 17:35:35 P_i: yes always 17:35:41 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.129] has joined #lisp 17:35:44 hate it 17:37:27 c|mell, it's at darcs get http://dwim.hu/darcs/hu.dwim.partial-eval but is still under construction 17:37:32 There are better implementations of XPATH 17:38:10 -!- johnb [n=john@skye.upbeat.no] has quit [Client Quit] 17:38:25 in a somewhat kludged version I was able to get a partial evaluated make-instance from SBCL source that is as fast or even faster than the hand written optimizations already there 17:38:25 p_i: have you considered sxml 17:38:38 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-93-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 17:38:56 by SBCL source I mean the make-instance/initialize-instance/shared-initialize, etc. generic code path 17:38:59 milanj- [n=milan@93.86.241.136] has joined #lisp 17:39:59 younder: not yet 17:40:54 Xach: how do you change the current working directory for sb-ext:run-program? (swank:set-default-directory pathname) doesn't seem to be the right thing to call 17:42:04 levy_: yes, but does yours actually handle all the cases that the SBCL version does? 17:42:06 DeusExPikachu: sb-posix:chdir 17:42:13 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:42:22 Xach: k thanks 17:42:30 DeusExPikachu: that will change it for the entire process 17:43:19 tsuru [n=user@c-76-22-154-126.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:21 froydnj, I can't tell you exactly, because I don't know all the cases 17:43:27 Penggu [n=me@222.96.96.58.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #lisp 17:43:32 levy_: that partial evaluator look pretty neat. It's a shame it's written in such a strange dialect of CL though :(> 17:43:41 HELP! MAX: (57) is not a real number 17:43:47 frodef, but it's certainly doable and scales very well when you have some fancy customizations on those generics 17:43:52 it's a list 17:43:56 that was s-xml or cxml 17:43:57 Penggu: use apply 17:44:03 -!- swathanthran [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:44:06 both decent 17:44:14 drewc, sorry about that, but lisp is a programmable programming language ;-) 17:44:19 way better that plexipus 17:44:21 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has quit ["Valete!"] 17:44:22 so we programmed it a bit 17:44:23 Penggu: rather than (max '(1 2 3)), use (apply 'max '(1 2 3)) 17:44:39 no, use (reduce #'max '(1 2 3)) 17:44:58 im using the maximise thingo of a loop 17:45:13 levy_: you should call name it and call it the 100 year language or somethihng ;) 17:45:21 stassats`: what's the difference? does the latter only do n-1 comparisons wheras the former does n*(n-1) ? 17:45:22 Penggu: but you're maximizing a list, you should maximize a number 17:45:34 s/call name/name* 17:45:45 *drewc* needs coffee 17:45:46 (loop for i from 0 to max maximizing i) 17:45:46 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 17:45:50 im cdr'ing a number from the list. so i have to convert it back to a number 17:45:54 Adlai: that's a frequent question, i'm so tired of it, see call-arguments-limit 17:46:04 clhs call-arguments-limit 17:46:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_call_a.htm 17:46:11 Though that might only work under iterate 17:46:24 stassats`: ah, that makes sense too. Thanks for answering my question :) 17:46:31 *younder* uses iterate 17:46:34 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.210.169] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:47:19 drewc, dwim? :-) a good name for a language... 17:47:41 kinda lew'd 17:47:47 ;) 17:47:52 except you can't substitute yourself into the 'I' in dwim 17:47:52 levy_: not a bad name for a language at all 17:48:07 someday i'll be named "clim-dwim"... 17:48:22 yeah, DW-those-crazy-guys-M 17:48:27 sounds like dim win to me 17:48:27 you know that was the problem with IP, intentional always mean what Charles mean 17:49:02 s/mean/meant 17:49:09 levy_: :D 17:49:30 so, dwim is also a joke 17:49:49 yes 17:50:07 how about call it 'partially renamed common lisp with added cognitive overheard' :P 17:50:12 But nevertheless a usefull library 17:50:19 sorry guys. i need to paste this code, cuz i just cant understand how to apply it to this situation: basically i have a list of integers. i want to pick the biggest one. the first list contains pairs (x y). i need to find the x that contains the largest y: 17:50:30 (winning-line-counts (loop for movecols-line in movecols-lines collect (cdr movecols-line))) 17:50:40 (max-line-count (loop for winning-line-count of-type real in winning-line-counts maximizing winning-line-count)) 17:50:43 -- no more pasting 17:50:51 (loop for i from 0 to max maximizing i) 17:50:53 Penggu: use http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp 17:50:55 again 17:51:01 younder: shhh... you're talking at people, and nobody is talking to you. You are on topic-ish for once, i'll give you that, but it still drives me crazy 17:51:06 drewc: CL++ ? 17:51:52 ryepup: nah... the C++ people didn't to the arbitrarily rename operators thing :P 17:51:57 do the* 17:52:13 ryepup: nah, CL# is a much more trendy name 17:52:41 drewc, not bad, but too long, maybe the acronym: PRCLWACO 17:53:04 easy to pronounce and unique like hell, so google won't have trouble with it 17:53:21 levy_: it's a shame 'arc' is taken :P 17:53:31 drewc shut up. I tested it and it works. 17:53:37 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@217.18.135.36] has quit [] 17:54:28 hello folks, is there a concentrated list that explains all usages of ' | , @ # & : and such? 17:54:42 clhs! 17:54:47 rullie: CLHS 17:54:55 clhs #| 17:54:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhs.htm 17:55:09 clhs @ 17:55:09 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for @. 17:55:11 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-76-22-154-126.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:55:17 ha... didn't think so :) 17:55:25 clhs ,@ 17:55:26 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for ,@. 17:55:28 clhs ` 17:55:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm 17:55:37 yeah, it'll be in there of course. 17:55:50 cool 17:55:53 thanks folks :) 17:56:04 trebor_dki pasted "string-to-double, works, but is it the right way to do?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87954 17:56:06 clhs 2.4 17:56:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_d.htm 17:56:12 will explain everything 17:56:28 it's even reverse of 42 17:57:14 the everything to universe, life, and the answer 17:57:54 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:31 answer -> Life the universe and everything -> 42 17:59:50 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:06 'jitchhikers guide to the galaxy' by Douglas Adams 18:00:21 Hichhikers 18:00:27 danlei [n=user@pD954F2BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:46 clever bot! 18:00:47 redundant commentary by Younder 18:01:42 isn't it Adlai 18:01:51 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o drewc 18:02:02 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:02:05 It even mimicked my spelling mistakes 18:02:12 rotfl 18:02:18 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:02:35 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has been kicked from #lisp 18:03:04 younder [n=jpthing@113.14.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:03:21 sorry i still work on faster csv-file-loading. converting string-to-double via read-from-string took about 90% of the load-time (200 files -> 0.7s + 6.0s converting). i googled for string-to-double but i did not succeed, so i tried myself. you can see the code here http://paste.lisp.org/display/87954. maybe you can give me an advice. thanks. 18:03:25 drewc: you have no sense of humor 18:03:45 Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:12 younder: i do have a banlist thought, so keep in mind that i don't have a sense of humour. 18:04:34 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o drewc 18:04:49 minion: tell trebor_dki about parse-number 18:05:19 so you accept minion but not PANDORA 18:05:20 trebor_dki: direct your attention towards parse-number: parse-number is a Library of functions which accept an arbitrary string and attempt to parse it into one of the standard Common Lisp number types, if possible, or else it signals an error of type invalid-number. http://www.cliki.net/parse-number 18:05:20 regexes for parsing floats? you must be joking 18:05:53 my bot is way better, it can mimick a personallity. 18:05:53 trebor_dki: there's parse-number, but there is also READ-FROM-STRING... which is probably where you should start 18:06:25 drewc: I think his problem is that read-from-string is too slow 18:06:26 stassats`: thanks, i will read (& install) 18:06:35 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@91.194.72.7] has joined #lisp 18:06:36 also, ick, parse-number 18:06:45 Personally i think drewc resent's it because I am a better programmer. 18:06:50 drewc: read-from-string is much too slow 18:09:22 trebor_dki: how did you measure that? 18:09:27 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-104-121.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:09:37 younder: if that's true, then your AI should be able to mimic drewc's personality. 18:10:07 Adlai: I'll get on it :) 18:10:24 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-104-121.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:11:30 trebor_dki: ahh.. even with READ-EVAL set to nil? I can do read about 2000000 double floats a second here.. you need faster than that? :) 18:11:31 This python nltk is awesome 18:11:55 I love, love love.... it.. 18:11:56 younder: have you wrote it yourself? you praised it hundred times today 18:12:13 freiksenet: yes 18:12:37 I am a very proud ather 18:12:37 Xach: i did time a (dotimes (i (floor 1e6)).. 18:12:40 father 18:13:07 trebor_dki: of what code? 18:13:08 drewc: i did not know about read-eval -> thanks reading 18:13:13 if younder a bot designed to annoy #lisp ? 18:13:31 Xach: the code at the end of the paste 18:13:36 It was written in Python, I regret to say 18:13:37 s/if/is/g 18:13:43 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o drewc 18:13:50 Dawgmatix: judging from his responces he is surely written in lisp, so he is ontopic %) 18:13:53 *Adlai* fetches popcorn 18:14:01 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-104.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 18:14:49 My best work ever :) read it and weep! 18:14:53 lol 18:15:55 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:16:18 -!- drewc has set mode -b *!*n=Tom@*unaffiliated/bacta 18:16:39 tsuru [n=user@c-76-22-154-126.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:08 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:49 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:17:57 -!- deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:19:17 drewc: hm. like this? (time (let (*read-eval*) (dotimes (i 1000000) (read-from-string "123.456e28)))) (here it shows no effect) 18:19:21 macdice [n=user@78.86.162.220] has joined #lisp 18:19:44 sorry, no point in being a spoilsport. Go on with whatever you were doing. I will merly be a spectator. 18:21:11 icecube [n=icecube@p549C32F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:40 -!- icecube is now known as Guest81396 18:22:00 htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 18:22:02 -!- Guest81396 [n=icecube@p549C32F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:22:09 icecube_ [n=icecube@p549C32F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:09 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-0-199.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:22:11 drewc: on this machine, that means about 100000 conversions per second, which is too slow. 18:22:15 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 18:23:02 stassats`: after all, parse-number as well as parse-real-number are not faster ;) 18:23:22 (than my novice-try) 18:23:31 trebor_dki: ha... i missed a 0 in my tests... you are correct sir 18:23:35 it parses not only real numbers 18:23:55 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit 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[holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:23:56 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:23:56 -!- dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:23:56 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:23:56 -!- bill` [n=wat@iamtheblackwizards.com] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:24:09 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@169.244.94.54] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:24:58 stassats`: yes, i saw it (i need integers & doubles) 18:25:09 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 18:25:16 rvirding [n=chatzill@h52n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 18:25:37 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest17438 18:26:03 ska` [n=user@ppp-58-8-119-252.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 18:26:06 ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-68-109.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:29:19 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 18:29:32 maskd [n=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has joined #lisp 18:30:34 -!- HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:32:12 trebor_dki: parse-number is significantly faster than read-from-string ... is your code faster still, even with all the regexps and the like? 18:32:20 parse-number isn't quite good actually, it doesn't handle E correctly 18:32:24 icecube [n=icecube@p549C32F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:28 (that's easily fixable) 18:32:31 -!- nullman [n=nullman@75.73.150.26] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:32:35 and it doesn't respect *read-default-float-format* 18:32:49 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229160202.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 18:32:52 -!- icecube is now known as Guest91919 18:34:03 seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:07 -!- Guest91919 is now known as icecube_ 18:34:16 which sucks 18:35:18 Corman? 18:35:46 ruediger_ [n=ruediger@188-23-94-68.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:36:33 silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-069-001.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:42 nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has joined #lisp 18:39:11 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-68-109.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:40:35 -!- alvinator [n=alvinato@121.1.55.58] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:42:17 drewc: slightly faster for strings including an exponent like "123.456e78", but for strings like "123.456" or "123" parse-real-number is faster 18:42:45 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:42:51 nowhere_man [n=pierre@nsg93-7-88-164-172-1.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:51 Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has joined #lisp 18:42:51 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:51 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:51 xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has 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[n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 18:43:17 (much faster, i have to admit) 18:44:30 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:49:23 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:50:20 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:50:32 -!- jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:51:09 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@80.221.41.202] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:51:42 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954F2BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:51:43 pkhuong pasted "Not quite read-double" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87957 18:51:49 i lifted float parser from sbcl, it's faster than parse-number 18:53:02 sellout [n=greg@pool-141-157-182-132.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:19 danlei [n=user@pD954F2BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:37 -!- Guest17438 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 19:00:07 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:00:14 -!- chris2 [n=chris@91.22.161.240] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:00:17 stassats` annotated #87954 "from sbcl" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87954#1 19:00:26 pkhuong: maybe i do not understand, but isn't a separation from string -> integral fraction exponent missing 19:00:43 trebor_dki: yes. So is the input sanitisation. 19:01:53 stassats`: cool, thanks, /me reading & testing 19:03:11 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:04:38 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:05:45 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@nsg93-7-88-164-172-1.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:05:48 -!- Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has quit ["My damn controlling terminal disappeared!"] 19:06:35 pierre_thierry [n=Pierre@nsg93-7-88-164-172-1.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:14 http://dwim.hu/file/hu.dwim.partial-eval/test/integer-power.lisp 19:09:14 Krystof [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has joined #lisp 19:09:26 any comment on this: http://dwim.hu/file/hu.dwim.partial-eval/test/special-form.lisp 19:09:26 stassats`: thats very interesting. strings with positive exponent are parsed much faster (with read-from-string, parse-real-number, make-float) than those with negative exponent. now i have to modify make-float to read integer & double as well. 19:09:40 freenode [n=user@254.60-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 19:09:51 where am I wrong? (I'm sure it's buggy at various places) 19:10:05 -!- freenode is now known as Guest46110 19:13:08 trying to invent a read-csv by doing this half-assed code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/87959 19:13:33 <_3b> levy_: you mean stuff like not testing for side effects of first forms in progn test? 19:13:35 I know i could easily use : (cl-ppcre:split "," x) 19:14:03 but I insist to reinvent the wheel in this case 19:14:06 how would you build a test suite for the partial evaluation of special forms (and their combinations)? coverage, etc. 19:14:47 _3b, sure, I'm adding a new test for that 19:15:33 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student166-53.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 19:15:35 (is (equal '(progn (print 1) 3) (partial-eval '(progn 1 (print 1) 2 3)))) 19:16:24 I guess there are zillions like this, so I just can't think an easy way to have a good test suite 19:16:27 what else can I do to make it split the sequences between the commas? 19:17:03 Guest46110: have you tried split-sequence? 19:17:23 <_3b> levy_: could be worse, at least you have a reasonable chance of being able to generate 'correct' answers by hand :) 19:17:30 Guest46110: (cl--ppcre:split "," "...") is slow ;) 19:18:05 Guest46110: like (split-sequence:split-sequence #\, "this,is,an,example") 19:19:44 -!- [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.82.158] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:19:45 <_3b> levy_: also a question of whether you are doing 'tests as spec' or just regression tests 19:20:14 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:20:19 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:20:30 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 19:20:37 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 19:21:08 <_3b> levy_: you might want to test block names other than nil, nested blocks (with same/different names, and returning to correct level) 19:21:10 bobbysmith007: split-sequence can be downloaded from cliki? 19:21:59 Guest46110: its available by default in sbcl... I would assume most other implementations as well but dont know for sure 19:22:21 _3b, the tests are for regression, the spec is already there: CLHS 19:22:48 also: http://www.cliki.net/SPLIT-SEQUENCE 19:23:01 package "SPLIT-SEQUENCE not found! 19:23:05 i use sbcl 19:23:29 Guest46110: hrm.... guess it got installed years ago then, sorry to lead you astray 19:24:05 you mean you put it in the startup file of your sbcl? 19:24:21 <_3b> levy_: yeah, i guess that was badly phrased in this case, i meant more in the 'write tests before implementing features' sense 19:25:08 _3b, then yes, tests before features, it's pretty easy to make partial-eval wrong 19:25:09 Guest46110: I actually have no idea where it got installed / included, it has just been in my environment every time I have ever needed it. I assume some library I use loads it 19:25:24 side effects, non local exists, free variable, make this tricky 19:25:36 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:25:48 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 19:25:54 how do you make slime-describe-symbol take me to the source file? 19:25:56 the market will determine the appropriate price point for variables! 19:26:52 *Krystof* giggles 19:27:05 *Krystof* also sees his worlds collide on reddit 19:27:22 but anyway, that's using something that's already there instead of "reinventing the wheel" which is what i want 19:27:25 <_3b> levy_: also, should it be rejecting invalid code (or at least returning it intact)? for example (block (foo) 1) 19:27:28 the lisper in me thinks "great, David Cope is pushing LISP"; the music researcher thinks "oh god not David Cope again" 19:28:14 _3b, I guess that will error out from the walker 19:29:16 but returning the source intact is always ok 19:29:51 <_3b> right, i'd say either of those would be fine, but for example returning 1 there would be a bit odd :) 19:30:28 indeed, and you just found a bug 19:30:33 neither the walker, nor partial-eval worries about that 19:30:35 Guest46110: a quick repl test shows split-sequence is ~2x as fast as cl-ppcre:split 19:30:36 so it returns 1 19:31:24 ok 19:32:26 bobbysmith007, try precompiling a scanner with ppcre 19:32:30 that should be faster 19:33:20 <_3b> levy_: are those tests assuming a completely clean environment? 19:33:46 levy_: why would (cl-ppcre:split "," ...) be any faster than (split-sequence #\, ...)? 19:33:48 <_3b> levy_: if not, the (setq x 1) -> 1 seems a bit odd, since it has side effects if x is special or closed over 19:34:11 _3b, wow, you are a good reviewer 19:34:33 Krystof, I meant faster than calling ppcre:split 19:34:51 I don't know how does that compare to split-sequence 19:34:51 ah 19:34:53 levy_: I think scanners with constant input are load-time-values anyway, but I will give it a go 19:35:14 bobbysmith007: load-time-value only helps if you're not testing at the repl 19:36:04 then this should be true: (is (equal '(setq x 1) (partial-eval '(setq x 1)))) 19:36:38 Krystof: I would expect it to build the scanner only once (I am running a 1000 iteration loop), but either way prebuilding the scanner lowers the time, but not much. split-sequence is still about 2x faster (for splitting on the comma char) 19:36:43 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 19:37:51 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.223.16] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 19:38:11 <_3b> levy_: if you can't be sure nothing will read that X, then yes 19:39:26 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:34 yes, x is free in that form 19:40:57 hmm, need tests for if with side effecting condition or even non local exiting... 19:43:41 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 19:43:54 what the hell 'style-warning' mean in sbcl? who defined the style, is it an ansi thing or just made up? 19:44:42 clhs style-warning 19:44:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/e_style_.htm 19:44:50 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-131-240.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:45:06 Guest46110: also, from the SBCL manual, 19:45:36 lispm [n=joswig@f054053053.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:45:39 btw, talking about regexp, the partial-eval also has a simple regexp like matcher, that I plan to partial eval wrt the expression 19:45:47 I'm wondering what can fell out of that 19:47:22 is someone here who has installed clsql through clbuild? 19:48:15 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-131-240.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:48:17 mcspiff [n=user@142.177.75.91] has joined #lisp 19:48:26 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 19:48:53 I'm sitting at my old box, and I get an error "Attempt to call an undefined alien function" 19:49:52 -!- silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-069-001.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:50:02 sorry for offtopic but it's kinda important 19:50:02 using loop, is it possible to maximize based on a test, but have it return something else? like (loop for i ... maximize-test (length i) maximize i) 19:50:21 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-131-240.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:50:52 i just tried to sleep. every half a minute or so, my heart beats with more power, then abruptly stops beating for a second or so 19:51:27 either that or years of sleep deprivation made me delusional or something 19:51:38 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-172-90.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:51:38 weirdo: To whom is that important? 19:51:42 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 19:51:44 Xach, me 19:51:54 weirdo: get a doctor. I doubt that there is anyone here who can give qualified advice. 19:52:05 serichsen, thanks. bye again :-) 19:52:16 Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has joined #lisp 19:52:28 Fufie! 19:52:36 varjag! 19:52:44 -!- acpound [n=alex@dhcp-044-057.cns.ohiou.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:52:58 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 19:53:32 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:55:48 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-93-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:04 mcspiff: you could use reduce, as in (reduce (lambda (a b) (if (> (length a) (length b)) a b)) sequence) 19:58:07 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 19:58:22 -!- sellout [n=greg@pool-141-157-182-132.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 20:00:48 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.177.75.91] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:01:30 mcspiff [n=user@142.177.75.91] has joined #lisp 20:01:37 serichsen: its a couple million elements, was hoping to avoid storing the entire structure 20:02:13 <_3b> i think iterate can do that 20:02:26 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:43 _3b: ive been avoiding looking at iterate, maybe its time to check it out 20:03:00 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 20:03:10 mcspiff: how do you avoid storing with "loop for i"? 20:03:29 <_3b> serichsen: loop for i = (get-next-foo) 20:03:38 ah right 20:04:43 minion: extremum for mcspiff 20:04:44 extremum: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/extremum 20:05:06 serichsen: what _3b said. At least I'm assuming that it doesn't need to store all the elements 20:05:08 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:36 if I use a non-existing variable in an expression in the SBCL REPL, can I continue from the debugger somehow as if the variable was defined and thus computing the expression? 20:06:43 ryepup1 [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:16 heh iterate is the same age as I am. Man I love lisp. 20:07:26 <_3b> tic: probbaly not in sbcl 20:07:47 (loop for i ... with seq = nil with max = 0 then (when (> (length i) max) (setf max (length i) seq i)) finally return seq) no idea if that works, or if it's what you want, but it was fun to type. 20:08:49 drewc: exactly what I wanted. I'm just being lazy ;-) 20:09:11 _3b`, I couldn't find a "continue with new value" restart, so I thought I'd check here first. Are there other implementations that support it? 20:09:37 <``Erik> 5~/cl 20:09:47 mcspiff: for bonus points, i could do it using PROG. :) 20:09:58 <_3b> tic: i think CCL might be better about that than sbcl, haven't really used much besides sbcl to say though 20:10:27 drewc: sucker for pain? 20:11:16 mcspiff: nah, i just still enjoy programming sometimes, and basic was my first love. 20:11:45 <_3b> tic: more generally, i know there are a few lisps that do, i just don't know which :) 20:12:01 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@32.153.183.103] has joined #lisp 20:13:14 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 20:13:15 drewc: heh im actually working through euler for a love of programming at the moment 20:13:38 in basic? 20:13:47 god no, lisp 20:13:51 ;) 20:13:56 *_3b* wonders where everyone finds the time and lack of interesting problems to work on project euler :p 20:14:29 must be the economy 20:14:46 _3b: academic probation :( 20:15:06 had my course load reduced from 6 to 3 this semster. 20:15:40 what does "academic probation" mean? 20:15:59 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 20:16:22 *_3b* would probably still pick 'work on something useful' in either of those situations 20:16:29 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.23.227] has joined #lisp 20:16:41 <_3b> actually, i think those are both things that would make it even more of a priority :) 20:17:02 university term in Canada. Essentially my marks were too low for a semster, so i'm restricted in the number of courses I can take, and need to have them approved by the department. 20:17:02 project euler isn't unuseful 20:17:07 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 20:17:27 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 20:17:33 <_3b> ah, that's OK then :) 20:17:39 my two ideas were 1)yet another blog or 2)project euler 20:18:16 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:18:25 _3b`, alright, thanks. 20:18:26 hope they granted you a course on creative thinking then ;-P 20:19:48 michaelw: sadly no. I'm in the most hum drum courses you can imagine. Networks and Systems, economics and "engineering and the enviroment." Thats mostly why I needed the stimulation of programming 20:19:49 lisppaste: url? 20:19:50 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 20:20:03 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:20:04 -!- nvoorhies_ is now known as nvoorhies 20:20:44 drewc pasted "I love PROG" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87967 20:20:45 i'm trying the hemlock editor, but when i type (require :clx) or (require :hemlock) I get an error: error in function require don't know how to load CLX! 20:21:30 drewc: thats not too bad at all! 20:22:12 drewc: there is a syntax erreor there 20:22:14 -!- Guest69565 [n=user@72.14.228.129] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:23:14 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:24:03 Guest46110: yeah, looks like a stray paren 20:24:33 Guest46110: also, without binding SEQ it's kind of useless, but that's not really the point :) 20:24:53 -!- Athas` is now known as Athas 20:25:37 -!- rpg_ [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:26:29 drewc: proof you can write c in any language? 20:27:09 mcspiff: that's more FORTRAN than C :) 20:27:46 drewc: oops thats the quote isn't it? afk for a bit 20:28:10 -!- Guest46110 [n=user@254.60-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:28:35 francogrex [n=user@254.60-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:29:13 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@32.158.96.40] has joined #lisp 20:30:43 xirie [n=eirikmik@ti0073a340-dhcp0225.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 20:31:55 emmy [n=em@cpe-98-14-154-71.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:36:38 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.153.183.103] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:36:53 -!- xirie [n=eirikmik@ti0073a340-dhcp0225.bb.online.no] has quit [] 20:37:32 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.155.132.92] has joined #lisp 20:38:38 michaelw annotated #87967 "I  series" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87967#1 20:39:11 whoppix [n=whoppix@dslb-094-219-070-247.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:42 what's #Mlength ? 20:40:21 series syntax for (map-fn t #'length xs) 20:41:24 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:27 nvoorhies__ [n=nvoorhie@32.152.183.133] has joined #lisp 20:42:20 (remove-duplicates '((1 2 3) (1 2 3 4) (1 2 3 4 5)) :test #'< :key #'length) => (1 2 3 4 5) 20:42:44 it retains all lists with maximal length 20:43:11 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:44:08 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-131-240.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:44:48 -!- francogrex [n=user@254.60-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:45:09 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@32.158.96.40] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:45:50 so it'd be (car (remove-duplicates list :test #'< :key #'length)) 20:46:13 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-131-240.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:49:21 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.155.132.92] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:49:22 -!- nvoorhies__ is now known as nvoorhies 20:50:38 stassats`: "it retains all lists with maximal length" -- try '((1 2) (1)) 20:51:07 BLM meeting tonight at NEU WVG 108 20:51:12 -!- spilman [n=spilman@90.59.68.9] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:51:28 stassats`: err, disregard. all != only 20:52:39 -!- macdice [n=user@78.86.162.220] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:52:40 stassats`, that's awful on a number of levels -- bravo 20:53:27 rpg annotated #87967 "I love iterate" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87967#2 20:54:36 josemanuel [n=josemanu@203.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:55:27 rpg: note that (max-length-element #((1 2) (1 2 3 4) (1 2 3))) => (1 2 3 4) ;) 20:55:30 Wow, I'm looking at some older, pre-standard, code and they have a macro to 'extend' defmethod, but it's not clear how. Digging further, it appears the extension adds OR to the EQL specialization. So, you could do (defmethod foo ((arg1 (or class1 class2)) (arg2 (or class1 class2))) ...) 20:55:53 I'm not convinced the extension is robust, though. 20:56:04 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:56:21 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:56:43 michaelw: Ah. I see. So series is correctly polymorphic for this over lists and vectors? I believe that could be done in iterate, but have never had to figure it out. 20:56:44 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:56:50 tmh: Xof has a paper on extensible specializers 20:57:04 rpg: yes 20:57:06 nvoorhies__ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:29 and an implementation! 20:57:34 michaelw: Link? That would be really handy. I'd like to replace this with something that I don't have to audit for completeness. 20:57:54 in fact, I think one of the sbcl mop test files is OR specializers 20:58:55 (though common use of or specializers suggests that there should be a common superclass) 20:59:08 michaelw: NM, I googled and have several links. 20:59:24 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@62.219.139.216] has quit ["Yay! I'm a llama again. http://www.shlomifish.org/"] 20:59:25 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.152.183.133] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:59:26 -!- nvoorhies__ is now known as nvoorhies 20:59:46 Krystof: can also be done with two defmethods and an auxiliary function. AND on the other hand... 20:59:50 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@203.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 21:02:47 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["*bork bork*"] 21:03:41 Is this a typo? -> (defmethod simplify ((x (* _x 0))) _x) shouldn't it be -> (defmethod simplify ((x (* _x 0))) 0) ? 21:06:41 <_3b> depends on whether x is NaN or not :p 21:06:58 <_3b> or -0.0 21:08:10 _3b: You're second argument actually does matter to my uses. What Rhodes is doing is several levels of sophistication greater than I need. 21:08:35 brown [n=user@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 21:09:03 -!- brown is now known as Guest19317 21:09:40 *_3b* was only commenting about the specific case of multiplying by 0 not always being 0, not any of the clos/mop stuff 21:10:18 _3b: I realize that, my first sentence only applied to what you wrote, the second sentence was a general comment. 21:12:03 -!- rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:19:53 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:20:07 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:20:27 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:20:56 rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:22:40 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:23:41 -!- nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:23:54 good night 21:24:05 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.83] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:26:09 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06e5ca.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before"] 21:33:11 hey folks, what does it mean why hunchentoot (or probably clsql) says Mysql server has went away. 21:33:25 s/why/when/ 21:34:21 rullie: it probably lost connection (but that is just a guess) 21:34:59 bobbysmith007: in that case I have a question regarding the *connect-if-exists* symbol in clsql 21:35:03 rullie: is it prompting you to reconnect? (clsql has a reconnect restart (on at least some backends)) 21:35:34 bobbysmith007: i've set it to :old, now to my vague understanding, it should use an existing connection, if none, then create a new one? 21:36:06 bobbysmith007: no, it's just throwing me that error. setting *connect-if-exists* to :new fixes the issue. but I'd like to get a better understanding of why this is 21:36:22 its probably that your "old" connection is no longer connected 21:36:40 bobbysmith007: so shouldn't clsql create a new one? 21:37:20 not really... essentially that controls what to do if you try to open a connection in a context where a connection already exists (regardless of the state of that connection) 21:38:00 since this is generally not good (leads to deadlocks) the default is :error 21:38:07 bobbysmith007: oh i see, anyway i can get a list of all existing connections? 21:38:36 are you using connection pooling, or is it that an object you are interacting with has cached the connection (the default in clsql) 21:39:11 you can ask for all the connections in the pool, or you can look at the connection on the object. Not sure if there is a "list all connections everywhere" function 21:39:19 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp193.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:39:40 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@91.194.72.7] has left #lisp 21:39:44 bobbysmith007: it's a very simple web view of a few tables, so i'm just using *default-databaes* 21:39:50 rullie: perhaps (clsql-sys:connected-databases) 21:40:04 but if your database is disconnected, that may not work (im not familiar with this function) 21:40:08 bobbysmith007: i believe that only lists connected ones 21:40:15 ok 21:40:21 thanks for the clarification :) 21:40:35 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-104-121.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:41:48 rullie: digging in the code it looks like clsql-sys:find-database is what you want to call there 21:41:59 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:42:16 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 21:42:38 rullie: the default clsql build has some "interesting" assumptions that are not entirely valid for web interaction (such as caching the connection on an object retrieved from the database) 21:43:04 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 21:43:13 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:43:17 hehe 21:44:09 rullie: we chose to change that in the copy of clsql we run by introducing: http://wiki.github.com/UnwashedMeme/clsql/choose-database-for-instance 21:45:15 Is there any way to get the numerator and denominator of a ratio without reducing them? 21:45:21 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:45:54 rullie: kmr wasnt a huge fan of that idea, so if you want to use it directly you would need to run the "accel" branch in that github repo 21:46:14 -!- levy_ [n=levy@89.223.130.161] has quit ["..."] 21:46:53 bobbysmith007: i'm at a fairly introductory level, I don't see the benefit of this thing yet. but I'll keep it in mind when I come to the realization :p 21:47:22 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:47:35 rullie: hint, this will probably come up when you start sticking objects in session 21:47:46 ok 21:47:48 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 21:48:54 hmm, forget my question, the spec seems to answer "no". 21:48:55 If you ever want to gain an appreciation for why people got burnt out on lisp right around the time it was standardized, audit some code from +/-3 years of 1990. 21:51:18 bobbysmith007: I do have another immediate question though. If I do open connections using the pool method, wouldn't an impulse of high load create lots of connections? 21:51:36 -!- milanj- [n=milan@93.86.241.136] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:52:35 -!- dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:54:05 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:55:14 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:55:17 seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:11 -!- untitled1 [n=untitled@150.197-26-211.dynamic.dsl.mel.iprimus.net.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:57:30 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 21:58:43 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32E265.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:52 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:00:56 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 22:02:17 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:03:18 -!- ska` [n=user@ppp-58-8-119-252.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:07:55 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@90.149.117.111] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:08:06 cddr [n=user@90.217.98.239] has joined #lisp 22:09:22 Is it possible to somehow profile dynamically generated lambdas? How else could you determine whether that was a bottleneck? 22:11:09 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:11:42 statistical profiler ? 22:13:00 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:13:03 thanks xristos. I'll investigate 22:18:06 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:19:16 the_bear_jew [n=the_bear@w005.z209031033.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:30 hi gents 22:19:47 is anyone here got a lisp powered website with dynamic search and file upload features I can look aT? 22:24:28 cl-user.net ? 22:24:36 don't think it has file uploads 22:24:40 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:29:47 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:30:31 htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 22:31:28 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:32:27 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-36.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:09 -!- setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit ["leaving"] 22:36:21 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@dslb-094-219-070-247.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:36:27 minion: memo for Xach: I think I fixed the link thing in my blog feed. Look okay now? 22:36:28 Remembered. I'll tell Xach when he/she/it next speaks. 22:38:49 the_bear_jew: unknown_lamer has done a couple using ucw that include file upload features, iirc. 22:38:57 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 22:39:07 ask in #ucw 22:39:47 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 22:39:54 schoppenhauer [n=christop@host159.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 22:43:44 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:44:54 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:24 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:48:16 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:49:21 -!- nixeagle [n=nixeagle@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:49:58 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 22:50:33 -!- lispm [n=joswig@f054053053.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 22:51:21 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 22:51:56 -!- whidden [n=williamh@host242.155.212.204.conversent.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:52:09 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:52:20 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.129] has quit ["so long.."] 22:53:42 -!- pierre_thierry [n=Pierre@nsg93-7-88-164-172-1.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:53:48 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:55:03 Monk1 [n=a@cpe-74-74-140-173.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:55:15 -!- icecube_ [n=icecube@p549C32F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:56:43 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:04:23 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has joined #lisp 23:05:08 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 23:05:20 So, what cool programs are written in lisp? I'd like to learn how to write something I'd use with it, rather than just using it to help me with my physics homework. 23:05:24 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 23:06:14 minion: pcl for fisxoj 23:06:16 fisxoj: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 23:06:27 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:08:25 fisxoj: what would you call a cool program? There are many successful systems written in Common Lisp 23:08:38 another example -- http://piano.aero is 100% CL 23:11:28 Adlai: I've looked at gigamonkeys before... I just wonder about day-to-day applications, like music players, or office programs, or games 23:12:54 fisxoj: check out cliki.net and cl-user.net 23:13:02 "GENTEMP no longer generates the wrong symbol if the pretty-printer is used. " <-- who on earth still uses GENTEMP? 23:13:18 especially together with pretty printing 23:13:29 well, Piano 5 is a day-to-day program for Airbus and Boeing, and Rolls-Royce 23:13:33 setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:13:34 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:13:48 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:14:17 clhs gentemp 23:14:17 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_gentem.htm 23:15:33 hmm, looks like a really crappy gensym. 23:15:34 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:16:00 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:16:46 wow, I never saw cl-user.net before. This is cool! 23:18:28 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:19:07 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:21:01 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:57 it has a lot of google juice, it's pretty hard not to hit it sooner or later 23:24:51 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 23:26:12 gigamonkey: Hey, _Coders at Work_ has thus far been excellent :) 23:30:14 trebor_dki annotated #87954 "string-to-num, my final one ;)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87954#2 23:30:27 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:12 herbieB: Glad you're enjoying it. 23:31:24 andelf [n=andelf@119.118.225.230] has joined #lisp 23:33:39 whidden [n=williamh@166.131.64.171] has joined #lisp 23:34:03 gigamonkey: You did a really fantastic job of prodding the interviewees, even to the point of (what sounds like) arguing with them. Thanks a ton :) 23:34:36 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:35:14 No problem. 23:35:23 Guest193` [n=user@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 23:36:23 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:37:15 -!- Guest19317 [n=user@72.14.228.129] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:41:37 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 23:41:45 Summermute66 [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:04 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Verlassend"] 23:42:41 gigamonkey: so modest ;-) 23:44:27 -!- timor [n=martin@87.234.97.27] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:44:35 gigamonkey: my copy should be arriving any day now! 23:44:56 "I think this analogy of making your own dish-washer for your particular plates is quite apposite: meta-programming is rarely done except in large projects." <-- that feels very wrong 23:45:14 metaprogramming isn't some kind of mystery spell you only wield when you have to slay the dragon 23:45:41 it's just as good for hacking lvl1 slimes, in fact it's better since there are more slimes to be slain than dragons 23:46:13 It seems to me that people who say that don't understand metaprogramming. 23:46:14 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 23:46:27 herbieB: http://john.freml.in/metaprogramming-analogy 23:49:21 okay, it gets different by the end, but I still think the presentation is confusing 23:50:03 mathrick: I was thinknig the same thing. 23:50:29 I also consider that meta programming is not limited to one project. If you consider allt he small things part of one giant lifetime project, it makes a lot of sense. 23:51:03 And in the case of his dishwasher analogy, in that lifetime, you would usually create a meta-meta-program that generates your plate specific dishwasher when you need that plate. 23:51:28 -!- whidden [n=williamh@166.131.64.171] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:51:29 gusl [n=user@137.82.157.106] has joined #lisp 23:52:28 araujo [n=moz@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 23:52:55 -!- sciendan [n=dan@c-69-250-212-245.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:54:49 is there a 'no nothing' function? (something i can replace with "(print" on whim)) 23:55:11 no nothing - i mean "do nothin" 23:55:14 g 23:55:23 Penggu: NIL? 23:55:30 sorry ive been 24h on the pc... 23:55:30 #'identity? 23:55:40 (constantly nil) 23:55:48 but it should return the value 23:55:56 Penggu: then you want #'identity 23:55:56 IDENTITY then 23:56:00 clhs identity 23:56:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_identi.htm 23:56:10 danke 23:56:31 bitte 23:57:35 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:48 ah i learnt a new word 23:58:25 fledna [n=andelf@60-199-104-194.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #lisp 23:59:00 ja, ja, das ist fantastich! 23:59:07 *Adlai* stops before he makes a damn fool of himself 23:59:16 Adlai: Too late 23:59:26 tisch 23:59:38 guessing, tisch = shit 23:59:56 fantas_tisch