00:00:09 so can somebody explain to me how assignment (i.e. setf) works in lisp? 00:00:16 lispm: I'll do what I can. 00:00:17 or point me at docs, etc 00:00:20 Ralith: specbot can 00:00:22 clhs setf 00:00:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_setf.htm 00:00:26 :P 00:00:27 nyef: thanks 00:00:34 *Ralith* smacks Adlai with the spe 00:00:35 I guess when you say lisp you mean Common Lisp and not Scheme? 00:00:35 c 00:00:43 Ralith: Also have a look at the entire section on "Generalized References". 00:00:47 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:00:49 newcmr: right 00:00:56 nyef: that sounds more like what I was looking for, thanks 00:01:03 newcmr: That's the general thing here. If you what #scheme, you know where to find it. 00:01:07 nyef: a file has lines like "ab 1.23 def" 00:01:10 Ralith: http://l1sp.org/pcl/setf 00:01:28 nyef, now I want to hash by "ab" 00:01:42 ok 00:01:45 lispm: Some DSPs have this kind of bitfiddle. They're useful for interleaving/deinterleaving operations. 00:01:49 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:57 nyef: is there some unicode involved when reading strings/lines from a file? 00:02:08 zephyrfalcon [n=zephyrfa@74.229.200.227] has joined #lisp 00:02:27 nyef: is there something I should now hashing strings? 00:02:32 lispm: On unicode-enabled SBCL, yes, as the string representation is unicode-based. 00:02:58 nyef: unicode is enabled by default on x86 macs? 00:03:15 That I don't know for certain, though I thought it would be enabled by default everywhere. 00:03:22 Have a look for :sb-unicode on *features*. 00:03:47 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-84-210.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:03:55 would it be possible to read strings that are not unicode even in an unicode enabled SBCL? 00:04:06 Sure. 00:04:10 lispm: what does a non-unicode string mean? 00:04:20 Well, sortof. 00:04:32 A base-string is required to be ASCII, I think. Or maybe latin-1. 00:04:33 a string that can only take 8bit ISO-whatever characters 00:04:38 nyef: ascii 00:04:52 lispm: encoding is orthogonal to the internal representation 00:05:11 You could use an external-format of latin-1, which has a mapping for all 8-bit codepoints. 00:05:11 I tried to answer a question on stackoverflow: 00:05:12 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1467898/what-language-could-i-use-for-fast-execution-of-this-database-summarization-task/1468030#1468030 00:05:22 and the code is too slow on SBCL 00:05:50 one part that is slow is reading a float from a string using READ-FROM-STRING 00:06:00 but I suspect that there is more 00:07:37 a function extracts the fields from a string, the second field is converted to a float 00:07:49 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:08:02 a hashtable has the first field as a key 00:08:15 hash tables can be mighty slow too. 00:08:32 that's what I fear 00:09:03 hashes won't be the problem for this particular case, I'd bet 00:10:17 one source of possible slowness is reading through all the lines with READ-LINE 00:10:41 then reading the float - possible a special float reader function would help 00:10:56 lispm: parse-number 00:11:06 aha 00:12:19 minion: parse-number? 00:12:20 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 00:12:20 parse-number: parse-number is a Library of functions which accept an arbitrary string and attempt to parse it into one of the standard Common Lisp number types, if possible, or else it signals an error of type invalid-number. http://www.cliki.net/parse-number 00:12:39 yay, cliki works 00:13:03 Argh. 00:13:12 I know a very similar thing was discussed to death on sbcl-devel a couple of years back, but I can't find it 00:13:28 I can't figure out Neil T. Dantam's email address from his web page. What do you think Neil T. Dantam ({first,middle,last-initial}@gatech.edu) means? 00:13:47 neiltd@gatech? ntd@gatech? 00:14:08 I would guess the first one. 00:14:22 jsnell: I don't like to see SBCL behind Python (especially if it is not the Lisp compiler) 00:14:27 ;-) 00:14:28 first name, middle name, last initial. you gotta guess his middle name :p 00:14:47 erg: exactly 00:14:49 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:15:00 lispm: Some of that depends on the encoding chosen, probably. Python's non-latin1 support is "special". 00:15:43 pkhuong: yes 00:15:48 What does "special" mean here? 00:16:09 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:16:11 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 00:16:38 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:42 Xach: Maybe try ndantam3@gatech.edu? 00:17:05 sellout: i think that's just his prism username 00:17:18 *Xach* gives neiltd a shot 00:17:21 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:25 lispm: why lambda calculus? 00:17:47 because it is 'universal' 00:18:22 like latin in natural languages? 00:18:35 it is the base for the functional language paradigm 00:18:44 this is the discussion: http://groups.google.com/group/sbcl-devel/browse_thread/thread/f70c47e9f22d158a/9349b7b72943d314 00:19:02 jsnell: cool 00:19:12 but learning lisp which supposedly embodies it isn't enough enlightening? 00:19:18 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:20:04 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 00:21:16 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 00:21:31 lispm: in your ECLM pictures, could you tell me which one is Dave Fox from Lispworks ? 00:21:55 hmm, let me see if he is on the pictures 00:22:40 the LispWorks guys had white LispWorks t-shirts ;-) 00:25:07 ha, there is a picture with a very small Dave Fox 00:25:21 http://www.cl-http.org:8002/pics/ECLM2009/large-12.html 00:25:27 won't help much ;-) 00:25:59 the one at the buffet ? 00:26:05 again here: http://www.cl-http.org:8002/pics/ECLM2009/large-14.html 00:26:31 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@pD9E6F199.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 00:26:37 12: on the right side next to the sales woman 00:26:55 does haskell supersede ML? 00:26:56 ok 00:27:13 14: in the second row from the left 00:27:23 martin simmons leans forward 00:27:36 just before him Dave Fox 00:27:50 ok, I know remember him 00:29:55 what are those meetings about? the state of the Lisp? 00:30:21 users showing off their work 00:30:32 as in bragging? 00:30:45 as in 'motivating' 00:30:48 ok 00:31:05 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:31:21 jsnell: the thread is very helpful, thanks! 00:35:49 do you know a good introductory book to forth? 00:37:38 "Starting FORTH" was rather good, I thought. 00:37:51 ok, thanks 00:38:01 Though you'll probably want to get a copy of "Thinking FORTH" as well. 00:40:02 that's intermediate? 00:40:48 It's... philosophy. 00:41:02 ok, the programming mindset 00:41:47 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 00:42:48 Demosthenes [n=demo@64.208.221.2] has joined #lisp 00:43:24 it's quite difficult to search information about languages whose names happen to be fairly common words: forth, scheme, lips... 00:43:43 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@64.208.221.2] has quit [Client Quit] 00:44:18 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 00:44:41 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:13 pete_m [n=pete@pool-72-91-72-168.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:19 -!- zephyrfalcon [n=zephyrfa@74.229.200.227] has quit [] 00:45:25 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 00:45:38 It's also difficult at times to come up with clever names for things that don't suffer from the same problem. 00:45:46 Even when it's a deliberate mis-spelling. 00:46:55 would this be a good place to ask a ccl/asdf-install question? 00:47:10 schmx [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 00:47:12 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:47:18 and the answer is: don't use asdf-install 00:47:27 i was afraid of that :) 00:47:47 That's a general asdf-install answer, not a ccl-specific one. 00:48:11 how 'bout just asdf? 00:49:10 pete_m: there's no other choice 00:49:16 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:49:32 ASDF is awful, but it's also the only game in town. 00:49:34 yet 00:51:17 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 00:51:31 and xcvb is a pita for small projects :\ 00:53:33 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 00:53:46 "Lisp Style & Design" recommends just having a file that you LOAD that will compile or load the entire system. 00:54:09 yay for LOAD 00:54:18 None of this planning, automatic dependency management, or other junk. 00:54:31 Just a file with a bunch of COMPILE-FILE or LOAD forms. 00:55:53 except if you want to do some code reuse -- which is not really part of "Lisp Style & Design" *grin* 00:56:18 Code reuse at what level, though? 00:56:47 this is not against you nyef, but it's disappointing to hear every second day that we suck because we have 30+ dependencies... 00:57:16 ...which is where you start in java with the hello world 00:57:35 code reuse at the library/project granularity 00:58:02 Sure. At that point, it'd be nice if we could just use REQUIRE. 00:58:09 iow, reuse of somebody else's work... :) 00:58:30 But, really, it's a matter of setting a convention and sticking with it. 00:58:49 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:58:59 nyef: unfortunately, lots of people need to agree with that convention. 00:59:17 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 00:59:34 Or it needs to be a convention that is simple enough to adapt other people's software to. 00:59:59 nyef: the convention is set, it's asdf for now. but it lacks key features, and does unexpected silly things all around (and was dead until Gary shock it up) 01:00:28 *attila_lendvai* still didn't spend considerable time with xcvb 01:00:39 -!- newcmr [i=5811c0af@gateway/web/freenode/x-lamjqjyykupehnwo] has left #lisp 01:01:19 attila_lendvai: having to have a compile phase, dumping an image, then starting a new lisp for each project you want to work on is pretty meh, imo. 01:01:27 works fine when you have a massive system, I guess. 01:02:57 sykopomp: it's a one man project and it's pretty much still v0.1 01:03:00 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:03:25 although fare is building huge systems with it now, so it's getting useful 01:03:30 attila_lendvai: I'm fully hoping it works for smaller projects, though, don't get me wrong :) 01:04:14 but I don't want to lose the ability to just start up lisp and load whatever from a repl without too much trouble. 01:04:32 and I'm still a bit confused as to why it needs to be completely incompatible with the asdf interface. 01:05:03 that will obviously work, that part of xcvb wasn't even started, or only just recently as far as i follow 01:05:51 well, then the second problem is distribution... (which shouldn't be xcvb's job, ofc 01:06:17 rotzak [n=rotzak@c-98-246-146-239.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:25 but it's getting late/early here... and speech won't solve the issues anyway... :) 01:06:31 so, cu guys 01:06:34 no, it won't 01:06:52 but it's necessary to talk about something like that. 01:07:10 hey there, is there something like nthcdr...but for car? I'm basically trying to split a list in half. For the "right" half I can use nthcdr but I'm not sure how to get the "left" half... 01:07:23 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:07:44 clhs subseq 01:07:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subseq.htm 01:08:22 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 01:08:23 that will work for a list too? 01:08:29 yes. 01:08:35 list is a sequence 01:08:36 sweet, I'll try it out 01:08:38 thanks mate 01:08:56 but it'll need to cons a new list 01:09:59 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:10:11 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B169F33.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:10:18 and splitting list in half would be inherently slow too, why do you need it? 01:10:37 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-1-46.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:10:54 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-qxhcccbohyktpsst] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:12:24 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.156.72.148] has quit [] 01:12:46 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 01:12:47 -!- pete_m [n=pete@pool-72-91-72-168.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["[BX] The name's X. BitchX."] 01:14:31 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:15:20 Well I wanted to try to implement quicksort in common lisp 01:16:27 jlf` [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 01:16:36 that way it'll be a slow-sort 01:16:44 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 01:17:20 Indeed. You might be better off with an array to start with. 01:17:22 well it's the way to do quick sort that I know -- partition the input, recurse, swap 01:17:54 Sure, but lists have an access profile that is linear-time by element number. 01:18:13 and using nthcdr with subseq wouldn't help at all 01:18:31 ahh, gotcha. I haven't gotten to arrays yet, I will skip ahead a bit 01:20:27 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 01:29:04 drewc: watching wrong window. Herep 01:30:31 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:32:31 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:33:11 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 01:33:18 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 01:33:49 -!- Monk1 [n=a@cpe-74-74-140-173.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:39:31 drewc: will check this out after dinner--back in about an hour. 01:41:40 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:44:06 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:44:50 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C6BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:44:52 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:35 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176440857.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 01:46:44 coderdad [n=coderdad@72.200.214.240] has joined #lisp 01:47:51 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:49:07 lat pasted ".sbclrc" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87874 01:49:43 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:47 Xach or someone, does the above pasted .sbclrc file look ok to you? 01:51:02 why are you asking? 01:51:20 Anyone. 01:51:49 that doesn't answer my question 01:52:49 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:53:54 stassats`, sorry. I thought you asked who. Because packages are not being found. 01:54:50 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:54:58 gko [n=gko@211.22.47.2] has joined #lisp 01:55:26 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:49 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 01:55:57 No, for a couple reasons. First is the use of use-package. Second is the inconsistency around your use of package prefixes. Third is that you are somewhat unspecific with regards to what package ~ is being defined into... There's probably a fourth surrounding the use of APPEND. 01:56:18 And that's leaving aside whether it works or not. 01:57:16 stassats annotated #87874 "that's how i would like it to look" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87874#1 01:58:32 could be user-directory changed while running sbcl? 01:58:40 Ah. Heh. /home/lat/lat/clbuild/systems/ ? 01:59:26 Or are you trying to pull from someone else's home directory? 02:00:28 i already find having three directories of systems a bad idea 02:00:57 Meh. I almost never bother even setting up the central registry, and just load the .asd files I need by hand. 02:01:31 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:01:36 that's unprogrammatical 02:02:48 Are you sure you don't mean that it's congrammatical? 02:03:19 (If you take a taxi to the liquor store, are you being driven to drink?) 02:04:28 i've never took a taxi to the liquor store, only out of the liquor store 02:06:59 stassats`, do I need to restart emacs for this to take effect? 02:07:16 this file is for sbcl, not for emacs 02:07:29 so you need to restart sbcl 02:07:37 or just load this file 02:08:03 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp246.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 02:08:21 nyef, no. That is my home directory. 02:09:27 And your home directory doesn't have a subdirectory "lat/clbuild/"? 02:09:41 (That is, ~lat/lat/clbuild/) 02:11:55 -!- eno__ [n=eno@70.137.152.199] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:16:08 stassats`, (load "~/.sbclrc") just locks up. How do I restart sbcl? 02:16:31 load doesn't understand ~ 02:16:55 exit sbcl, start anew? 02:17:11 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 02:18:29 lendog [n=L82@ip70-181-31-133.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:51 rtoym: issue logging in to trac? 02:21:39 salva [n=salva@91.117.11.105] has joined #lisp 02:22:29 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:24:32 -!- lendog [n=L82@ip70-181-31-133.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 02:25:28 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.197.170] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 02:26:05 Demosthenes [n=demo@64.208.221.2] has joined #lisp 02:27:59 nyef, there is a home/lat/chbuild subdirectory. 02:30:04 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:03 stassats`, I reloaded the .sbclrc file. Ran (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op 'unique). Got: package "COLLATE" not found 02:32:12 ... because it doesn't exists? 02:32:47 i'm guessing that you are loading defpackage form with :use collate before you have loaded collate 02:33:18 stassats` and nyef, so I loaded "collate.asd" by hand, and still got package "COLLATE" not found. 02:33:42 post your asd file 02:34:28 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:37:11 lat annotated #87874 "unique.asd" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87874#2 02:38:04 that's good 02:38:20 -!- gws [n=g@w005.z209031033.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:38:23 -!- antgreen` [n=user@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM0018c0b3c272.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:41:14 wgl: Yes. I can enter my id and passwd, but then I get a page that says requested URL /cmucl not found. But I actually did log in. 02:41:40 lat: Just loading the .asd is insufficient, you also have to ask ASDF to load the system. 02:42:02 TDT [n=dthole@216.248.91.254] has joined #lisp 02:44:17 lat annotated #87874 "unique.lisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87874#3 02:45:01 lat: paste collate.asd too 02:45:29 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-93-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:46:42 g'evening everyone 02:46:43 nyef, after loading the .asd I ran (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op 'unique) 02:46:47 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1199.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:47:04 Fair enough. 02:47:13 hi TDT 02:47:27 I don't remember if asdf system names are string designators or symbols or what. 02:48:22 and collate doesn't actually define collate package? 02:48:33 lat annotated #87874 "collate.asd" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87874#4 02:48:50 -!- salva [n=salva@91.117.11.105] has quit [] 02:49:18 and collate.lisp, please! 02:49:58 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 02:50:23 benny [n=benny@i577A1199.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 02:50:23 lat annotated #87874 "collate.lisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87874#5 02:52:28 -!- Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:54:36 -!- pr_ [n=pr@p579CA861.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:56:22 rtoym; So the issues is still outstanding? 02:56:48 Yes. I tried just a bit ago. 02:58:08 Demosthenex [n=demo@64.208.221.2] has joined #lisp 03:02:14 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@64.208.221.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:02:28 So you are logged in, but unable to see the /cumcl location? 03:03:37 roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 03:04:13 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:56 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 03:04:58 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:05:05 wgl: Well, I try to log in and get the message. I type in the url again, and I get the desired page, but now it says I'm logged in. 03:05:07 is there a way to test if something is a sequence that wouldn't screw up with SBCL's SEQUENCE? 03:05:29 wgl: Oh, and the failure page has http://localhost/cmucl in the address bar in firefox. 03:05:58 sykopomp: Well, TYPEP comes to mind... 03:06:36 nyef: so SBCL's SEQUENCE should play nice with typep? 03:07:22 It's the sort of detail that Xof wouldn't get wrong, isn't it? 03:07:23 sykopomp: Well, CL:SEQUENCE is a class. 03:07:43 yeah, you're right, it's probably not something that would break 03:07:49 pkhuong: yeah, it is... :\ 03:08:33 Ok, I'll take a look at it first thing tomorrow. 03:08:52 Any other anomolies? 03:09:22 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:09:47 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 03:10:05 andrewks [n=aks@ottawa-hs-206-191-39-60.d-ip.magma.ca] has joined #lisp 03:12:17 wgl: That's basically it, so far. And if it helps, I was able to login last week without these problems, I think. 03:13:34 rtoym: Yes, since then we have installed squid between apache and tracd to speed the response up. 03:14:06 Well, it still seems pretty slow. :-) 03:16:35 stassats`, do you see any problems? 03:16:40 no 03:17:37 Ok, will check on the problem tomorrow. 03:18:37 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-20-20.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:18:48 Thanks. No rush, since it does kind of work, as long as I remember to go to the page. 03:19:21 wgl: Oh, I also wanted to say, it's not just login. I think trying to submit any information, like a new ticket, or updating a new ticket gives a similar warning. 03:21:25 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:35 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:26:12 alvinator [n=alvinato@121.1.55.58] has joined #lisp 03:27:10 stassats`, any idea what could be broken? 03:27:59 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-26-158.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:28:02 no, sorry 03:31:04 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:25 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-10-140.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:36:12 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-161-71-17.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 03:37:49 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.168.65] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:37:55 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:48:07 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:50:51 -!- TDT [n=dthole@216.248.91.254] has quit [] 03:51:40 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:52:18 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 03:53:26 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 03:59:17 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-236-165.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:55 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:01:07 -!- roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 04:03:36 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:04:36 -!- emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-11-230.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:05:34 emacs-dwim [n=user@74.71.11.230] has joined #lisp 04:08:37 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:10:14 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:18 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:12:31 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 04:15:13 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-207-020.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:19:20 arquebus [n=d@201.139.156.133.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #lisp 04:19:58 male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:20 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-11-44-79.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 04:37:04 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:13 c|mell [n=cmell@211.225.154.28] has joined #lisp 04:38:57 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-179-43.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:40:16 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-179-43.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:41:17 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-179-43.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:46:40 -!- Baconizer [n=baconize@unaffiliated/baconizer] has left #lisp 04:49:39 Using asdf, (mapc (lambda (dependency) (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op dependency)) (list :mcclim :clim-gtkairo)) works, but in my defsystem form, using :depends-on (:mcclim :clim-gtkairo) cannot find the :clim-gtkairo component (which is defined in :mcclim). How am i supposed to indicate the dependency? 04:49:46 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 04:52:00 define a new class and add an after method on load-op? 04:52:50 or just push :clim-gtkairo to *features* 04:56:22 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-2-252.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 04:58:30 thanks. 04:59:34 -!- jlf` is now known as jlf_away 04:59:43 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@72.200.214.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:02:50 http://img.4chan.org/b/src/1254196430944.jpg 05:03:02 http://img.4chan.org/b/res/163941893.html 05:03:07 good night 05:03:25 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 05:09:50 as if I didn't need enough excuses to waste my time. 05:09:51 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@211.225.154.28] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:09:55 s/need/have/ 05:10:05 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:14:11 gusl [n=user@24.84.32.98] has joined #lisp 05:15:34 splittist [n=dmurray@85.4.220.156] has joined #lisp 05:15:37 morning 05:17:39 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:43 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-20-20.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:21:12 Morning. 05:22:01 Off topic C@W babbling but at this very instant, the C@W average Sales Rank since the book actually came out is exactly the same as the best single-hour Sales Rank PCL ever achieved. 05:22:15 I guess the Lisp market was more niche than I realized. 05:22:18 nice! congrats :D 05:23:39 -!- arquebus [n=d@201.139.156.133.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:27:39 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit ["off"] 05:31:35 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:36 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-9-178.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:36 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:31:43 -!- nvoorhies_ is now known as nvoorhies 05:37:58 sykopomp: thanks! 05:38:16 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@85.4.220.156] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:41:25 -!- male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [] 05:46:30 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-13-106.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:46:30 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 05:48:08 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:48:27 hello 05:57:19 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:02:02 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.83] has joined #lisp 06:06:38 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:18:31 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-30-58.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:20:36 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:29:48 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:30:54 -!- gusl [n=user@24.84.32.98] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:31:04 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:31:58 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 06:32:17 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:32:41 Davidbrcz [n=david@212.198.78.230] has joined #lisp 06:37:14 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:32 c|mell [n=cmell@121.186.151.234] has joined #lisp 06:41:45 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:41:56 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Absquatulandus sum"] 06:42:40 andelf [n=andelf@119.118.225.232] has joined #lisp 06:43:48 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:44:08 any NLP heads around? are there any algorithms for recognizing english verbs? 06:44:30 and by algorithms I mean brute-force and guesswork type techniques 06:45:16 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 06:45:17 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212.198.78.230] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:46:12 fusss: brute force is very effective. 06:46:55 i am trying to do some VERY primitive stemming for a very simple search engine 06:47:02 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:47:03 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:47:27 hi fusss, we used http://www.lsi.upc.edu/~nlp/freeling/ for lemmatisation 06:47:38 serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06d97e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:43 good morning 06:48:21 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.83] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:49:25 c|mell: that's a java thing right? 06:49:39 c++ iirc 06:49:57 perfect 06:50:15 you can talk to it over a pipe 06:51:09 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.83] has joined #lisp 06:51:14 that's all i need, actually 06:51:50 the dictionary it has is a bit strange and includes weird words and misses some common ones, but sounds like this solution is already way overkill for your ideas 06:51:59 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:53:00 to be honest, i can get away with no stemming at all if i restrict index updating to just myself, and not other programmers 06:53:05 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:53:17 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 06:53:38 i have the corpora which was already well kept, but the people maintaining it didn't tag with enough keywords; perhaps one or two per article 06:54:00 i went out and wrote a pile of code last night that extracted keywords from the text itself 06:54:54 what algorithm did you use? 06:55:18 to select the keywords? a table driven eye-ball hack 06:55:19 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:55:38 I rulled out 25 top most frequent words of all the entire corpus as "plain english" 06:56:00 removed all the keywords in the entire keyword-list as good-keywords 06:56:26 the remainder i used various dictionaries to remove the non-technical vocabulary, and what i have left is pretty spot on 06:56:33 so call it a Fusss Sieve :-) 06:56:43 fusss: a sieve, you say? 06:56:49 let's try that... IN PARALLEL 06:56:50 :P 06:56:56 nooooo 06:56:58 brb 06:58:30 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 06:58:59 -!- eal [n=user@c83-250-155-194.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 07:02:39 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 07:03:24 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:03:25 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.241] has joined #lisp 07:15:15 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:19:50 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:25:04 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:27:47 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:29:31 redblue [i=star@ppp011.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 07:31:39 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:33:08 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.83] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:33:42 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.83] has joined #lisp 07:34:57 Addled [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has joined #lisp 07:38:55 girzel [n=user@123.121.195.150] has joined #lisp 07:39:26 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229111156.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:39:35 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.241] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:39:51 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.241] has joined #lisp 07:40:17 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:40:57 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:41:20 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 07:44:26 *fusss* dry-humps the collective legs of lemonodor and lpolzer, for Montezuma! 07:44:45 beautiful, beautiful piece of software 07:44:57 it is? 07:45:01 works .. as advertised 07:45:03 that's good, I'm planning on using it 07:45:19 I am writing PHP API for it tonight 07:45:25 for my teammates 07:45:48 hehe 07:46:50 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1199.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:47:13 i am gonna make a web-service front end, and a pure ascii socket-based protocol for stuff on the same machine 07:47:42 Why not use atom? 07:48:17 scaling it is trivial, if you think a little hard about updates; i do index updating myself, via a cron job, and replicate the index to all the machines 07:48:53 Zhivago: i haven't looked at atom, other than seeing its icon on blogs 07:49:50 *fusss* is usually suspicious of blog technology, including micro-formats, feeds, and PushSubShoveHubWhatWhat 07:50:23 fusss: JOIN THE DARK SIDE OF GIT 07:50:30 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 07:50:57 fuss: All of the google web servicy things run over atom. 07:51:05 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@81-174-51-191.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 07:51:49 It seems reasonably sane, as these things go. 07:51:53 fusss, ./~ I said what what ./~ 07:51:54 fledna [n=andelf@119.118.225.232] has joined #lisp 07:52:49 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 07:53:22 -!- andelf [n=andelf@119.118.225.232] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:53:23 sykopomp: grep -in git ~/.zsh_history | wc -l ==> 20 07:54:31 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:55:53 sykopomp: if you make that ^git, then non 07:56:21 all 20 occurrences where for `man git` :-P 07:56:24 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 07:56:25 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:56:45 the last way "slackpkg remove git" 07:57:08 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:57:28 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@81-174-51-191.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [] 07:57:28 s/way/was/ 07:57:34 -!- rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:57:56 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:58:23 whoami kidding, it's more like C:\Program Files\Git\unwise.exe :-( 07:58:52 arbscht_ 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[n=mb@p4FC1C0DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:15:01 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:15:30 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 08:16:29 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:17:06 -!- Addled [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:17:07 -!- arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:17:30 Addled [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has joined #lisp 08:18:32 -!- Addled [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has left #lisp 08:18:52 Addled [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has joined #lisp 08:21:53 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:22:10 re 08:24:59 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [] 08:26:22 lots of people pinging me 08:26:23 I am here now 08:26:31 but you are all asleep 08:26:49 (best haiku I can do at this time in the morning) 08:27:47 [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.86.192] has joined #lisp 08:27:55 drafael [n=tapio@118.90.136.43] has joined #lisp 08:28:00 Well, it's only inside out :) 08:28:04 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:29:07 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.244.188] has joined #lisp 08:29:59 argh, froydnj has scribbled all over external formats 08:30:40 I mean, scribbled very nicely and stuff 08:30:55 -!- Addled [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:31:14 Addled [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has joined #lisp 08:35:46 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:36:33 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:36:51 -!- Addled [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:37:10 Addled [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has joined #lisp 08:37:37 -!- Addled [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:37:55 Addled [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has joined #lisp 08:38:05 aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:39:41 can slime-who-calls operate on setf functions? 08:40:07 sunwukong [n=vukung@business-80-99-161-225.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:43:05 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:14 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.244.188] has quit [] 08:45:19 -!- Addled [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:45:38 Addled [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has joined #lisp 08:49:15 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:50:39 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 08:52:20 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:52:42 hefner: based on brief testing, it seems to work in CCL but not in SBCL 08:53:43 well, s/it seems to work/SLIME-BACKEND:WHO-CALLS seems to work/ 08:54:12 trying it from the slime frontend, it seems to accept only symbols. But the backend is there! 08:56:32 <[Jackal]> XCL is coming along nicely. I believe it supports native threads of all platforms? 08:56:34 what code walker does slime who-what-where user? 08:56:40 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 08:56:40 <[Jackal]> s/of/on 08:56:46 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 08:58:20 [Jackal]: are you the developer? 08:58:29 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:58:38 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 09:01:20 <[Jackal]> Of course not! 09:01:45 <[Jackal]> It's a brainchild of ABCL's developer. 09:01:50 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 09:03:20 anybody on IRC can be Peter Graves, no problem :-) 09:05:14 benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-124-177-162-112.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:07:39 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.241] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:07:39 <[Jackal]> Would that be you? ;> 09:08:08 FWIW, you're thinking of piso 09:08:30 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483FB95.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:08:52 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 09:10:56 <[Jackal]> Ah, thanks! I was merely curious about the details and how different its implementation is from ABCL. 09:17:02 have you got it up and running? 09:18:22 anyone know if it has an FFI? 09:19:12 -!- nodding [i=43b907a2@gateway/web/freenode/x-fuizqmvupguzsfaj] has left #lisp 09:19:41 <[Jackal]> c|mell: Yes. The snapshot posted on its homepage (dated: Sept 23rd) compiled well in msys. 09:19:54 <[Jackal]> *features* - (:XCL :X86 :WINDOWS :ANSI-CL :COMMON-LISP) 09:20:30 <[Jackal]> I'm trying to get it to run all tests successfully. 09:20:56 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-104-121.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:23:21 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has left #lisp 09:23:22 (:UNIX :LINUX :XCL :X86 :ANSI-CL :COMMON-LISP) 09:24:25 what do you think about it? how well does it work? 09:24:38 it uses sacla 09:25:37 holly crapola, it mimicks sbcl UI in the repl and debugger. WIN. 09:26:06 and bloody hell, it passes the DISASSEMBLE test 09:26:47 basic CLOS functionality pass as well 09:27:13 now if it had seamless access to C++ classes and methods without an FFI I would be in heaven 09:27:56 perfect TCO, recursive factorial of 100 computes nicely in an instance 09:28:29 well you should be able to do that without TCO . . . 09:29:02 aerique: I don't see how the compiler's implementation language affects the fact that C++ is a pain to interface with. 09:29:23 c|mell: yeah, but it's a recursive function which i often abuse new lisps with 09:29:45 how about changing the * to a + and then computing it on 100000? 09:30:02 bleh. debugging gtkairo sucks. 09:30:05 you might want to switch to ackermann 09:30:50 michaelw, no you don't want to make huge bignums, that's the whole point of changing * to a + 09:31:08 if DISASSEMBLE works, shouldn't TCO be apparent in the output? 09:31:11 SWEET! does 1000! faster than anything else i have seen 09:31:35 How would you multiply a 2d array by a scalar? 09:31:53 without expilcitly writing a nested loop 09:31:55 c|mell: then try Harrop's even-odd thing 09:32:05 hm. waht's the point of XCL? 09:32:23 tic: can build sbcl, works on windows 09:32:29 tic: bootstraps from C++. 09:33:02 the bootstrapping part is good, but doesn't clisp already cover that? 09:33:08 fusss, have you tried clisp? that also has a decent bignum implementation (gmp) 09:33:45 c|mell: this thing is a win on so many levels 09:34:19 *tic* builds xcl 09:35:02 anybody looked at the code generated? is it good? 09:35:05 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-1-46.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:35:17 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 09:35:23 c|mell: XCL apparently has optimizing native code compiler 09:35:31 c|mell: I'm fairly certain the bignum code in CLISP is hand rolled. It doesn't depend on libgmp on debian. 09:35:55 why isn't gmp used more? It certainly seems good for performance. 09:35:56 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:36:17 lichtblau: is there a reason gtkairo appears to implement its own double buffering instead of letting gdk/gtk do it automatically? (I'll guess because CLIM's habit of drawing outside repaint events causes problems) 09:36:26 amaron [n=amaron@93.86.161.198] has joined #lisp 09:37:02 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-179-43.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:37:04 huh, I didn't know about CLN 09:37:06 It can't run slime yet but i just put in my ilisp and it works 09:37:23 p_l: the disassembly looks amazing 09:37:27 hefner: yes, that's it, as far as I recall the details 09:37:47 pkhuong: me neither but one can always hope 09:37:49 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:37:54 Unfortunately, the behaviour McCLIM's :double-buffering option activates in gtkairo is slightly different from what it does in clim-clx. 09:38:03 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 09:38:05 good morning 09:38:20 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.241] has joined #lisp 09:38:29 Ralith: GMP was very young (if existent at all) when clisp was first released. 09:39:16 My firm resolutian for any future GUI toolkit I might be involved with is to do get rid of paint events entirely. Always render into objects, let the native paint event paint those to the screen. (Think output recording, but in the case of Qt, just map Lisp object "records" into QGraphicsScene items, so the C++ side will do the painting.) 09:40:21 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:41:43 pkhuong, you right i think :) wow, when i tested it, it had bignum performance comparable to gmp and i must have got confused 09:41:55 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32EF4E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:34 tic, c|mell: it doesn't have much mop support it seems, define-method-combination is undefined, whence can't run asdf 09:42:41 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Client Quit] 09:43:51 chris2 [n=chris@p5B169912.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:44:06 " The long form of DEFINE-METHOD-COMBINATION is not implemented." 09:44:10 fusss, just looked at the C++ code. seems he's been working on this for quite some time now. Also, many special cases, e.g. the various flavors of hash tables 09:44:39 tic: this thing can be a good trojan horse, imo 09:44:51 ship something in CL under the cover of the night and none is the wiser 09:45:03 fusss, does it produce standalones? 09:45:11 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 09:45:25 fusss, (or why would it be good for stealth CL hacking?) 09:45:26 apropos doesn't return anything for "program" or "executable", or even "image" or "core" 09:45:33 tic: it's tiny 09:45:42 no dependencies or anything 09:45:42 I guess the boot strapping part is good. 09:45:50 5.7M isn't minimal. :-) 09:46:07 although. that is quite small. SBCL's core is 20+M 09:46:22 alright, 2.0M bzexed. :-) 09:47:07 tic: my phone has 16GB of storage 09:47:42 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:47:46 this thing can squeeze into many places 09:47:50 discussing epeens is offtopic :) 09:48:05 fusss: my access point has 16 MB! 09:48:20 -!- [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.86.192] has quit [Success] 09:48:27 jdz: in computers, smaller is better 09:48:36 (also, "peen" means carrot in Dutch :)) 09:48:49 just today i dumped a montezuma image and call the sbcl executable "lucene" 09:49:20 fusss: did you read the "full circle" description of montezuma? 09:49:29 so... what magic are you planning on doing with XCL, then? 09:49:30 Xach: yes :-) 09:49:49 Xof: re your sbcl mail... i can offer you an ssh account on a virtual machine we have with git and gitweb. and i can offer *some* git support. some only, because i've just learned enough to have a branch of sbcl and keep my changes in it uptodate when the head moves ahead... 09:50:00 i was very close to writing PHP bindings for CLucene when I had an epiphany; ship lisp and call sbcl.core lucene.jar :-P 09:50:19 haha :-) 09:50:33 Xof: the ssh part is only useful when you need to undo some git misbehavior 09:51:03 *fusss* has a nasty experience with a cron job deleting *.core files; so is used to renaming them anyway 09:51:30 .sbcl would be a good extension 09:56:33 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:03:12 [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.82.233] has joined #lisp 10:03:24 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:03:32 he really did well; the native thread api are subset of bordeaux-threads 10:04:07 unlike LW which still lugs around the multiprocessing lingo even in its latest incarnation 10:05:16 <[Jackal]> Hardships of surviving on an experimental network. :P 10:05:38 <[Jackal]> fusss: XCL doesn't seem to have any support for FFI, AFAIK. 10:05:48 <[Jackal]> As of yet. 10:08:05 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 10:08:48 *hefner* always thought trying to layer a heavyweight CL GUI toolkit on top of a heavyweight foreign toolkit was a lousy idea 10:10:18 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 10:12:14 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:12:29 I'd be glad to have a _lightweight_ CL GUI toolkit on top of a heavyweight foreign toolkit. Say, subset of CAPI, slightly modernized as indicated above. 10:12:30 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:13:41 I think I'd rather have a framebuffer 10:15:46 -!- benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-124-177-162-112.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:16:52 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 10:17:11 lichtblau: what about lightweight display + input library? ;D 10:17:31 then make a CL toolkit on top of that 10:17:52 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:17:53 p_l: sounds to me like what hefner is talking about 10:18:34 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:19:30 icecube [n=icecube@p549C4D90.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:58 -!- icecube is now known as Guest78058 10:20:08 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 10:22:58 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 10:24:08 cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 10:32:44 splittist [n=dmurray@85.4.220.156] has joined #lisp 10:32:47 re 10:33:38 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 10:36:43 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 10:37:29 /? 10:37:46 *girzel* clears his throat 10:39:13 -!- gko [n=gko@211.22.47.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:42:25 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:06 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 10:52:29 joswig [n=joswig@f054053131.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:53:43 "The Deadline never sleeps" 10:54:00 what a weird presentation for a software project 10:55:47 so, what happens to ABCL now? 10:55:47 it doesn't sleep, but you can gag and tie it up with some duct tape and lock it in the basement 10:56:25 other people are maintaining 10:56:30 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:56:31 Ah. 10:57:00 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-84-210.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 10:57:06 i am working on a new java lisp as well 10:57:27 (borrowing parts of ABCL) 10:58:24 this presentation http://weitz.de/eclm2009/lightningtalk%20stefan%20richter%20ECLM.pdf 10:58:51 dmiles_afk: play with java me 10:59:25 an interactive lisp for the mobile; even if it's camoed as a "game development kit" 10:59:48 yay bloat. lisp on java on an underpowered machine. 11:00:07 repl on the mobile :) 11:00:21 that is one issue it takes 2ce the machine to do the same tasks 11:00:30 it doesn't even have to be resident; something to speed up development 11:00:42 <[Jackal]> (Hint: PyS60) 11:02:01 i am snagging SBCLs char names right now for it.. "Bel" instead of "Bell" 11:02:10 fusss, played with the language shootouts for xcl? 11:02:33 tic: no 11:02:41 have you? how is it? 11:02:46 oh god. flipping ink, I was dreading this 11:02:55 nope, I think I'll do that now. 11:04:30 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177157223.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:04:54 antifuchs: what's hard about flipping ink? it's just an XOR. 11:05:09 even with premultiplied alpha? 11:05:21 (I mean, anti-aliased things) (: 11:05:32 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 11:05:37 "what's hard about flipping ink?" asks the man who's currently working on gtkairo. 11:09:35 hefner: there is gotta be some business in simplifying this http://books.uiq.com/index.php/Multimedia 11:09:56 scroll down to the code 11:10:19 I never liked premultiplied alpha. 11:11:06 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:11:15 I am guessing any kind of alpha computation is going to be a pain in this 11:11:16 doesn't stop executing spectral-norm. 11:11:26 HET2 [n=diman@80.3.31.126] has joined #lisp 11:11:49 maybe there are gradients one can compute and make decisions about them based on the present value, but I lack in the multimedia theory department to be smart with this 11:12:10 tracing main stops at 0: (main). Hmm. 11:12:32 in all, I'd like to state that flipping ink is a huge can of worms everywhere that isn't a simplified test case with ugly shapes. 11:13:55 GoTo [n=n@113.231.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 11:14:14 antifuchs: are you trying to draw flipping ink with alpha, or attempting to 'flip' a pixel on the screen which has already been drawn with alpha and blended with the background? 11:14:34 -!- GoTo [n=n@113.231.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:15:54 the latter 11:17:02 that's a little crazy. does someone really care if this does the right thing? 11:17:12 (whatever that might be) 11:17:14 actually, haha, both 11:17:29 am am not even sure what the right thing might be (: 11:18:11 API-wise, you usually don't have the choice. What antifuchs is explaining must be the reason APIs supporting the former (like Cairo) can't do flipping ink at all. Forcing you to do the latter using an unrelated API to do it after the fact (GDK). And there goes the state of the cairo context. 11:19:18 (in fact, my code refuses to do anything at all, which is arguably the right thing... but there might be a less-right thing that could be done and make the customer happy (-:) 11:22:55 the former should be easy, prescale the flipping ink color by the alpha 11:23:41 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 11:30:00 right 11:31:22 I don't actually like flipping ink, I just laugh if something that's been commonplace since at least the 80s suddenly became difficult. 11:34:39 Xof: blah, sorry for the conflict 11:35:01 absolvo te 11:35:12 it's at least mostly my fault for not being public enough about my development tree 11:35:48 I had queued that OAOOization for at some point in my development; now you've done it, all we need to work out is how to salvage my stuff 11:36:29 sykopomp pasted "parallel sieve -- now with less failwhale" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87886 11:36:42 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@84-72-45-92.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [] 11:38:00 *matimago* starting reading "Coders at Work" at work. 11:38:01 sykopomp annotated #87886 "waviness enabled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87886#1 11:38:35 Xof: what other stuff do you have? could you just push it to repo.or.cz? 11:39:07 yes, probably 11:39:23 what I have are useful restarts on encoding errors, along with a tightening up of utf-8 11:39:38 I need to define permissive variants of external formats for interactive use 11:41:08 tsuru` [n=user@c-76-22-154-126.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:41:26 Argh! First factual fault! 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Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:34 Good afternoon! 12:17:35 hello spiaggia 12:17:40 mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.87.164] has joined #lisp 12:17:56 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 12:18:24 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest12697 12:21:04 Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:26:14 benny [n=benny@i577A1337.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:33:18 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit ["leaving"] 12:33:28 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.244.188] has joined #lisp 12:33:34 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 12:33:37 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-104-121.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:36:06 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-11-44-79.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:36:10 charliekilo [n=ck@65.199.190.170] has joined #lisp 12:36:29 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 12:36:51 hefner 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joined #lisp 13:07:28 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.87.164] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:08:07 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:09:43 ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 13:12:47 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 13:18:37 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:18:50 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:19:49 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.241] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:20:41 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.241] has joined #lisp 13:20:55 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp011.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:21:04 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.244.188] has joined #lisp 13:21:18 ska` [n=user@124.157.215.151] has joined #lisp 13:23:44 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-15-59.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:45 <_mathrick> http://imgur.com/RzRcw.jpg <-- haha, that's awesome 13:25:59 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:27:28 -!- Guest12697 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 13:27:29 heh, yeah .. :) .. the rhino book does contain a language and client side (js-in-browser) reference though 13:28:35 -!- KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-15-59.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:29:09 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:57 -!- Guest4735 is now known as pkhuong 13:31:20 antgreen [n=user@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM0018c0b3c272.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:33:38 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 13:34:42 <[Jackal]> ECMA-262 is a fairly advanced language with closures and functions as first-class citizens. It's the DOM scripters that give it a bad name. 13:35:30 open classes are a drawback though. 13:35:37 Yeah, it's a nice language -- as they go. I'd like to see it compete head on with python/ruby. 13:35:40 have a guy implementing a stack here, says that's a problem. 13:35:57 Zhivago, just need a standalone 13:36:04 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:36:31 llv8call isn't too bad in that regard. 13:36:54 postamar [n=postamar@206-248-165-246.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 13:37:15 <[Jackal]> It has its share of quirks too. There are some ugly parts and things like prototypes that confuses people coming from other languages. 13:38:53 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-9-178.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:40:04 <[Jackal]> Zhivago: You probably have noticed this already: http://code.google.com/p/jslibs/ 13:40:50 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 13:41:14 <[Jackal]> JIT has turned it into something perversely attractive. 13:41:20 tic: a problem for implementers you mean? 13:41:40 Actually, I hadn't -- but that looks promising at a glance. 13:42:08 I would like to measure and optimize the performance of a 2d convolution function I wrote in common lisp. What would you suggest as a method to time the algorithm? Are there any special things to keep in mind? 13:42:24 [Jackal]: it's hardly prototypes' fault, many things that aren't mainstream confuse people 13:42:30 sepi: TIME is a handy approximate measuring tool 13:42:43 sepi: I just happen to be reading a paper on that 13:42:53 sepi: http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/9ocbi/performance_beyond_expectations_2005_pdf/ 13:44:50 So are there no issues with the lisp image being freshly started like in java? I'm using sbcl by the way 13:45:21 mathrick, Xach: thanks! 13:46:07 sepi: please define "issues with the lisp image being freshly started"? 13:46:08 ooh, I see 13:46:20 hotspot and dynamic paths recompilation 13:46:37 sepi: That's probably implementation-dependent, but most decent CL implementations compile directly to machine code, so you don't have to wait around for it to decide whether or not to JIT stuff 13:46:57 as far as I know, no, although that depends on what you're doing. I'm not really sure how much SBCL uses PICs and related techniques that could be time-from-start sensitive 13:47:18 mathrick, yes, problem for implementers. 13:48:01 tic: there's nothing that couldn't be solved with a sufficiently smart caching compiler :) 13:48:21 tic: oh, btw, I met a guy who sysadminned for Opera in your office in Wrocaw 13:48:35 mathrick, cool! 13:48:42 mathrick, yeah, caches aplenty indeed. 13:48:58 I tried to ask him about you, but he sort of killed my enthusiasm by giving me numbers related to how many people work for Opera :) 13:49:20 krappie [n=brain@mx.skitzo.org] has joined #lisp 13:49:22 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 13:49:30 clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 13:49:32 Ah yeah, there are quite a few of us. Recently one of the PMs in my team moved down to W. 13:50:27 speaking of which, is anyone touching Closure at all? 13:50:42 with CVS being as friendly as it is, it's downright impossible to determine when the last commit was 13:51:15 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:51:19 when doing a lot of "CLOS stuff" there is some late optimization stuff going on, i think ..., wrt. method dispatch 13:51:32 lnostdal: that'd be PIC 13:51:48 ahok 13:52:06 mathrick: except they 13:52:10 re not inline. 13:52:41 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 13:53:04 perhaps there is a git mirror somewhere, mathrick .. at least there is for sbcl; i can't stand cvs :} 13:53:41 reprore_ [n=reprore@116.82.73.92] has joined #lisp 13:53:51 blah, using unsigned-regs there doesn't work 13:54:08 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 13:54:11 rotzak|work [n=rotzak|w@70.98.39.250] has joined #lisp 13:54:51 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:55:10 do you get a performance hit by using a let in an inner loop as opposed to putting the loops inside the let and using setf? 13:55:19 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:56:57 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177075091.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:30 sepi: as a first approximation, no; in fact, it may improve performance. 13:57:52 sepi, I don't; do you? 13:58:28 pkhuong: ah, fair enough 13:59:05 pkhuong: re: let, is that related only to the GC pressure and generations, or are there other factors in play? 13:59:31 Jafet: I havn't tried yet. 13:59:35 sepi: other thing you might or might not be aware of is the DYNAMIC-EXTENT declaration 14:00:02 lnostdal: yeah, I loathe every time I have to touch CVS in 2009 14:00:13 coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has joined #lisp 14:00:15 which still happens, and most of the time it's some Lisp project, sadly 14:00:36 mathrick: I've never heard of them 14:00:53 mathrick: it's orthogonal to heap allocation. Rebinding doesn't allocate memory (modulo value cells, but then you're not in an inner loop anymore). 14:01:02 the problem is that I don't know any CVS importer that can work without being able to touch the $CVSROOT 14:01:24 -!- Makoryu is now known as L`jnqxt 14:01:27 pkhuong: oh, I didn't think of it, it makes sense now you mention it 14:01:47 sepi: you might want to familiarise yourself then. It makes it possible to allocate things on the stack 14:01:53 clhs DYNAMIC-EXTENT 14:01:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_dynami.htm 14:02:21 pkhuong: so what causes it? 14:03:22 mathrick: second order effects related to the fact that the colouring register allocator isn't that smart and that we don't do anything SSA-like to help allocation. 14:03:43 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:03:54 I see 14:04:07 SSA is single static assignment? 14:04:16 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:04:20 pkhuong: might I be stupid and ask what exactly you meant by "modulo value cells"? Perhaps just a rephrasing would help me 14:04:28 wgl: exactly 14:05:56 *mathrick* disappears 14:05:58 mathrick: except if you have value cells associated to the binding, then creating a new binding will allocate a new value cell. 14:06:13 -!- p_l is now known as o^k 14:07:10 -!- jlf_away [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:07:23 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:07:36 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:07:36 With generators that do SSA, is register coloring part of the plan, or does the SSA eliminate the need? 14:07:49 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 14:08:52 a register allocator is still required 14:09:07 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:09:32 So once the code (intermediate) is generated with SSA, register allocation is then done? 14:09:33 wgl: you still have to perform register allocation somehow. SSA basically introduces rebinding instead of assignment, and permutation functions on control flow joins. 14:10:46 for a simple SSA-based compiler that does graph-coloring register allocation (written in Dylan), see http://monday.sourceforge.net/examples/simple-compiler/simple-compiler-project.html 14:11:14 wgl: The heart of SSA isn't particularly low-level. You get the same effect with CPS. 14:12:49 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:13:07 Ah. 14:13:21 in fact sbcl uses cps instead of ssa? or does it have two forms? 14:13:40 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:13:48 Is SBCL using CPS? 14:13:51 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:14:14 mathrick: so don't cl implementations otherwise use the stack? (except for function calls) 14:14:14 CPS is low-level? 14:14:32 no cps is not lowlevel -- you can do it with cl-cont if you like 14:14:48 _mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.87.164] has joined #lisp 14:14:53 Not sure what pkhuong meant, then 14:15:12 sepi, a cl implementation can only allocate a variable on the stack if it can be proved not to escape, or if it is declared dynamic-extent 14:15:18 <_mathrick> sorry, I forgot about the library closing time 14:15:21 c|mell: the sort of CPS is only used during the pass that does flow analyses. It's translated to basic blocks with typed virtual registers (TNs), operations with explicit read/write and branches. 14:15:37 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.87.164] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:15:45 And reg alloc is performed there. 14:16:02 <_mathrick> pkhuong: okay then, what decides whether or not you have a value cell in a binding? I thought you had to have one either way to be able to do anything with a binding 14:16:02 pkhuong, interesting, do you have a link? 14:16:47 c|mell: so does it have to use the os malloc every time it allocates memory then, or will the implementation manage it's own memory? 14:17:16 _mathrick: if the binding isn't closed over by a closure or is never setfed (we could be more aggressive, but nobody ever bothered), no value cell. Otherwise the way closures are represented needs a value cell to share assignments. 14:17:16 can someone help me out with this real quick? I'm not sure what's going wrong here: http://pastebin.com/m7c18727e the error I'm getting is "*** - <: (1 2 4 3) is not a real number" for input "(qsort '(5 1 2 4 3) (lambda (x y) (cond ((< x y) -1)((> x y) 1))))" 14:17:25 <_mathrick> sepi: always manage it itself, given that all implementations use a GC 14:17:30 sepi, no it allocates a chunk and then gives you a bit of that chunk very quickly 14:17:52 when you run out of that chunk (nursery) suddenly you have to pay the cost of a garbage collection 14:18:04 <_mathrick> sepi: OS malloc might happen sometimes, when the previously allocated space runs out. But in general, the implementation will allocate a "big enough" chunk and then avoid mallocing more if at all possible 14:18:16 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.87.120] has joined #lisp 14:18:29 rotzak|work: you're taking the tail of the list (a list itself) as the pivot element. 14:19:06 hmmm so (cdr list) is of type list, not an atom?? 14:19:31 A list is made of atoms 14:19:32 <_mathrick> pkhuong: ah, right, I sort of figured that out after I asked my last question. It makes sense to avoid allocing if you can prove no mutations inside a block, and you have to have a complete block to compile anyway, so there's no problem 14:19:53 <_mathrick> oh man, I hate places at my uni that aren't library 14:19:57 oooh, wait I get it 14:19:59 <_mathrick> it's so damn loud everywhere 14:20:00 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B445.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:05 So it's an atom that happens to signify a list 14:20:05 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B445.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:20:06 I just generated bindings for a new version of Ogre for the first time and without any problems. That makes me happy. (small version step 1.6.2 -> 1.6.4) 14:20:12 pkhuong: Thanks, I could have stared at that for a long time :) 14:20:23 <_mathrick> Jafet: err, that's not possible 14:20:27 Jafet: Rob A MacLachlan's "The Python compiler for CMU Common Lisp", probably. 14:20:31 aerique, nice! 14:20:32 unfortunately it didn't fix the bug i was having problems with 14:20:53 _mathrick: ok, then I'm relieved :) 14:20:56 Ah, I think "atom" means something different 14:21:01 <_mathrick> Jafet: an atom is not a cons cell, and you have a (proper) list if every cdr is a cons 14:21:21 It's atoms vs. forms. 14:21:21 <_mathrick> well, or nil 14:21:21 <_mathrick> nil is kinda both 14:21:22 <_mathrick> not a cons, but a list 14:21:32 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2DA97.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:32 <_mathrick> Zhivago: atoms are forms! 14:21:38 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2C1CC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:21:40 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 14:22:01 Yeah, well the point is that you're talking about syntactic elements rather than cons cells when you're looking at atoms. 14:22:22 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.196.252] has joined #lisp 14:22:48 <_mathrick> rotzak|work: regarding your previous question, if for any cell in the list the CDR isn't a list, it means it's not a proper list, and many functions are allowed not to work with them 14:23:18 herep lpolzer 14:23:25 Well, a list is defined as either 1) nil 2) a cons cell with a cdr list 14:23:31 So otherwise it's not a list to begin with 14:23:40 <_mathrick> no, that's a proper list 14:23:56 Damn, you guys use strange terminology 14:23:59 *Jafet* stops 14:24:05 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:24:06 <_mathrick> it's very, very precisely defined 14:24:13 ...This is what type systems are for. 14:24:17 <_mathrick> CLHS is your friend, don't fear CLHS 14:25:14 Query: Anyone know how to optimize money to gigamonkeys when ordering Coders at Work (Amazon link from his web page? Direct from publishers?) 14:25:17 <_mathrick> L`jnqxt: ah, haskell afficionado? Then I'm sure you will be delighted by looking at how cleanly the haskell REPLs are implemented, for all their limitations :) 14:25:34 rpg: amazon affiliate i believe. 14:25:59 rpg: pkhuong is correct. Hit the amazon link on his homepage. 14:26:02 <_mathrick> redline6561: you might want to ask lpolzer_ instead, to make sure his client gets highlighted 14:26:12 _mathrick: Thanks. 14:26:25 herep lpolzer_ 14:28:18 Anyone know why it takes so long to ship (1 - 3 weeks)? 14:29:08 Never mind --- just bemoaning that I won't get it instanter! 14:29:17 -!- L`jnqxt is now known as Makoryu 14:29:19 -!- Makoryu is now known as Makoryu_ 14:29:34 <_mathrick> instanter is a good word 14:29:49 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 14:30:36 _mathrick: "you have a (proper) list if every cdr is a cons" That's not true, because a circular list is not consider proper even though it satisifies this criteria. 14:31:23 Jafet: "A list is made of atoms" No, it can contain other lists as well. 14:31:29 well, that's true. There are more ways for a list to fail to be proper 14:31:53 also, (10) is a proper list but its cdr is not a cons 14:32:02 lukego [n=lukegorr@84-72-45-92.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:32:05 but what I gave was a necessary condition, I don't think I implied it was sufficient. If I did, apologies 14:32:55 Xof: "well, or nil". I caught this much :) 14:33:04 minion: memo for gigamonkey: I'm going to try using database code from PCL as example in DBMS course, maybe even with indexing xD 14:33:05 Remembered. I'll tell gigamonkey when he/she/it next speaks. 14:33:05 "cons or nil" --- a list 14:33:06 mathrick: But as Xof pointed out, it is not necessary either. 14:33:37 -!- drafael [n=tapio@118.90.136.43] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:34:36 spiaggia: it's either cons or NIL. Though as usual a recursive definition is the most succint: a proper list is either NIL or a cons whose CDR is a proper list 14:35:00 hmm 14:35:00 no 14:35:08 -!- sunwukong [n=vukung@business-80-99-161-225.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["bye"] 14:35:18 you can twist it into being circular without contradicting the above 14:35:38 Indeed. 14:35:46 proper list ends with a NIL, circular list doesn't have an end 14:36:00 I'm wanted? 14:36:18 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 14:36:21 what's up, redline6561 14:36:25 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 14:36:31 lpolzer_: it'd seem so, by redline6561 14:37:00 lpolzer_: I was just going to check on the status of your SBCL patches in Paktahn. 14:37:21 mathrick, you cannot prove that a circular list is proper by that definition 14:37:26 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-1-46.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:37:37 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:41 redline6561, no response from anyone with the commit bit yet, unfortunately 14:38:15 although I've even provided a full patch with tests on my second attempt to get this in 14:38:40 but everyone of the sbcl hackers seems to be pretty busy right now 14:38:43 lpolzer_: Well, I mostly wanted to ensure there were efforts to get them upstream. So that's good. 14:38:56 roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 14:39:14 lpolzer_: And I can certainly understand them being busy...oh, uh...while you're here what happened to the branch mackram was working on for weblocks. Big javascript rewrite? 14:39:32 icecube [n=icecube@p549C4D90.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:40 well the branch is almost ready, he just needs to fix some small merge conflicts 14:39:59 -!- icecube is now known as icecube_ 14:40:00 but I understand mackram is pretty busy too right now so it might still take a few weeks (unless someone else steps up to do it, of course) 14:40:00 -!- jyujin_ [n=jyujin@d221-90-121.commercial.cgocable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:40:15 dammit, that means I'll have actually to look at it then :) 14:40:18 -!- [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.82.233] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:40:54 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.244.188] has quit [] 14:41:07 lpolzer_: oh, right. I don't know anything about YUI, how does their datepicker work, for instance? 14:41:20 (re: data compiler vs. outside JS widgets) 14:41:27 lpolzer_: Thanks. :) 14:41:49 mathrick, the merge conflicts seem to be pretty simple 14:42:00 only some hunks in two files 14:42:05 lpolzer_: ie. if I had it compiling down to JSON + JS glue bits, what else would be needed to plug the YUI picker in? 14:42:19 Jafet: definitions don't exist to prove anything, but as far as I can tell, circular list could very well be considered proper by that definition. 14:42:21 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:42:30 mathrick, let me look at the yui docs... 14:42:37 lpolzer_: yeah, my complaint was that it's too close, not too far from being committed :) 14:43:24 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.241] has quit ["off"] 14:44:30 the yui date picker (its name is "Calendar") has all the logic inside 14:44:44 you basically just call it's constructor on a target element and you're done 14:44:55 hmm 14:46:26 spiaggia: depends on whether we have access to object identity (: 14:46:27 lpolzer_: okay, so that seems easy enough, as long as the glue elements are well-defined, all you need to do is to write a tiny snippet of JS you'd have to write anyway 14:46:41 yes 14:46:57 yui is actually a pretty nice player in other scenarios 14:47:09 because it builds on plain html markup 14:47:10 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 14:47:11 so in the minimalist case, just giving your elements appropriate IDs is all you need 14:47:30 and that'd naturally work with a CL-WHO compiler 14:48:01 -!- Makoryu_ is now known as Makoryu 14:48:41 lpolzer_: I tried thinking about higher-level constructs, such as tables, but I couldn't get far without having actually built something working first 14:48:52 -!- charliekilo [n=ck@65.199.190.170] has quit [] 14:48:57 I can imagine 14:49:03 a working prototype is needed 14:49:04 but it'd be nice if there was a good DSL to express common things such as a grid of data 14:52:01 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@75.36.220.246] has joined #lisp 14:53:54 ejs [n=eugen@23-193-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:10 mathrick, not sure what you imagine... 14:54:14 aren't nested lists enough? 14:54:34 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-30-58.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:13 lpolzer_: just nested lists won't translate nicely into an (HTML) table 14:55:26 I'd like to steal WUI's other-than-HTML renderers thing, if at all possible 14:56:42 I've not taken a look at it, but I encourage you to steal it if you like it :) 14:58:14 gigamonkey: you pinged 14:59:35 lpolzer_: it does things like render tables to PDF/ODF automatically, it's kinda nifty 14:59:52 it also lets you do a lot of introspection, and a rich data language is needed for that 14:59:57 sounds good 15:00:08 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:00:11 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-93-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:12 it's not entirely dissimilar to the halos we wanted to have for a long time 15:04:28 halos were meant to provide a developing aid, mainly 15:04:35 how does that relate to the table dsl? 15:07:09 lpolzer_: WUI can introspect data, such as zooming a data row into its own table, show data types, or break into SLIME inspector on the object providing the model for a given widget 15:07:31 killerstorm2 [n=alex_miz@sputnik.donapex.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:32 if you want to know what a "row" is, you have to have a sufficiently expressive data language 15:08:19 ah, now I got what you meant 15:08:50 oh, right, WUI has its own page now 15:08:51 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:08:52 Xof: just wanted to let you know that that Sales Rank->actual Sales function we found seems to more or less work. 15:08:53 gigamonkey, memo from o^k: I'm going to try using database code from PCL as example in DBMS course, maybe even with indexing xD 15:08:57 a basic implementation of halos isn't hard 15:09:09 Yikes. 15:09:10 gigamonkey: excellent 15:09:15 does that mean that you are rich? 15:09:26 I wish. 15:09:32 rich in wisdom! 15:09:37 mathrick, but for more advanced purposes we obviously need more semantic markup 15:09:37 lpolzer_: http://dwim.hu/ <-- live demo site, including "show the source for this thingy on the screen" 15:09:41 doesn't work in chrome, though 15:10:04 Probably a bit better off than I expected. 15:10:17 you could package up the sales-rank -> sales function as an ebook and sell it to statistics-addicted authors 15:10:33 what, you can't retire on the proceeds of one niche non-fiction book's sales? 15:10:38 or even two? Sucks to be a writer 15:11:00 time to crank out Coders at Work: The Good Parts 15:11:06 antifuchs: he'd make more money that way 15:11:19 Xach: you saw that picture of the two O'Reilly Javascript books side by side, right? 15:11:24 lpolzer_: exactly. And I pretty much want to see how far you can push the smarts of the "web language" compiler. If all I wanted was a plain old framework with minimal separation from HTML, I wouldn't be writing in Lisp :) 15:11:33 especially if advertised in a get-rich-quick-on-the-internet manner :) 15:11:45 gigamonkey: yeah. 15:11:58 gigamonkey: I think that's why it got brought up :) 15:13:07 I'll consider myself a successful writer when the amount of money I make from writing a book approximates a crappy salary for the time I spent writing it. 15:13:15 rsynnott: that's what ebook authors would let one believe (: 15:14:09 gigamonkey: anyway, I am gratified that my graph-reading skills are adequate to the task of modelling Amazon sales :) 15:14:54 the get rich quick scam book industry is surprisingly big 15:14:58 Xof: though I've actually been using the second function (with slightly differenc coefficients) from that MIT paper. 15:15:11 well, details are for engineers 15:15:11 But you definitely put me on the right track. 15:15:18 I am a straight-lines kind of guy 15:15:38 [insert my standard Linux is crap and its disk IO is a joke here] 15:15:47 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:15:48 rsynnott: it is an industry and a meta-industry 15:15:49 Hi. I need some library which implements ordered container with fast lookup. (Probably tree, I do not know any other container with such properties.) Who can recommend a library? 15:15:49 is anyone working on SBCL OS at the moment? 15:15:50 Eventually I had to plot the estimated-sales/week on a log scale which made it look pretty much just like the sales rank chart. 15:15:56 which is both surprising and appalling (: 15:16:12 minion: TREES 15:16:12 TREES: TREES is a Library which provides binary trees of several flavors, all exposed through a uniform CLOS interface. http://www.cliki.net/TREES 15:16:24 I doubt anyone makes any money by using the books, of course, but the sellers and affiliates sometimes do. Bit of a seedy business all around 15:16:46 gigamonkey: do you have any way to figure out how it's doing in real-world shops? 15:16:48 hm, you guys won't get my clever reference there. (Tony Blair once said, after being caught in conflicts of interest, "I'm a pretty straight kind of guy") 15:16:56 (does the publisher give you data on that?) 15:17:31 antifuchs: that big money can be had if your profession is parting fools from their money? That's not a particularly new news :) 15:18:24 Xof: I was thinking more of the trans-siberian railroad and the tzar's design 15:18:26 rsynnott: nope. I could find out from Apress how many they've sold to the big sellers and distributors but unless those folks have had to order more copies it's hard to know whether they're flying off the shelves or sitting in warehouses. 15:18:31 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:18:36 mathrick: yeah, or Haussman 15:18:43 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 15:18:48 And there's BookScan which samples point of sales data to get at that. 15:18:52 mathrick: no surprise there. however, that parting fools from their money by telling them how to part fools from their money is apparently still lucrative was surprising to me. 15:19:18 -!- fledna [n=andelf@119.118.225.232] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:19:42 I'm sort of surprised that the retailers don't feed that data back to the publisher 15:19:53 *Xach* is reminded of "A fool and his money were lucky to get together in the first place" 15:20:03 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:20:11 Greetings. 15:20:11 antifuchs: nonsense. If you're just stupid, you probably are aware of that. The true fools are the ones who think themselves smart 15:20:20 hello tmh 15:20:20 (though retail stores are often pretty uncooperative about passing POS data even when they have it and it's in their own interests, grumble grumble) 15:20:30 rsynnott: Yeah. It's a weird mess where nobody wants to share their sales data because they all consider it valuable top-secret info about their business. 15:20:58 But everyone would probably be better off if there was a big clearinghouse of good data. 15:21:19 Even if the publishers all put their own sales data into a big shared database it would be good. 15:21:19 certainly if they at least shared it with the publisher 15:21:48 I suppose for really big books (Harry Potter etc) it doesn't really matter cause they'd reorder all the time anyway, but for less popular books it could be extremely useful 15:21:55 Well, the publisher ultimately knows how many copies they sold and how many came back. So it's delayed but they get good numbers on their own books. 15:22:21 Xof: the difference being that Haussman actually knew what he was doing :) 15:22:38 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@75.36.220.246] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:22:47 What's annoying is how hard it is to know how well a book is doing compared to other books in the world. 15:22:55 I.e. published by other publishers. 15:23:12 -!- killerstorm2 [n=alex_miz@sputnik.donapex.net] has left #lisp 15:23:41 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:23:51 I have a sneaky suspicion that C@W is selling quite well :) 15:24:35 not as well as the latest Dan Brown 15:25:31 Yeah. It's pretty crazy to think about just the logistics of moving millions of copies of a book around the world for a Dan Brown or Harry Potter novel. 15:25:32 jyujin_ [n=jyujin@d221-90-121.commercial.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:39 If you want to write books to make money, you're in the wrong department, I think 15:25:44 Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:26:02 Jafet: yeah, well C@W is *closer* to the right department that PCL. 15:26:37 I imagine he wants to write books AND make money, which can be different. Think of the speaking fees after an appearance on the stackoverflow podcast! 15:27:10 And even PCL, it turned out, has earned enough money over it's lifetime to date that if it had made twice as much money would have been *almost* enough to cover my rather modest needs for the time I spent on it. 15:27:25 gigamonkey, impressive 15:27:26 gigamonkey: so true, it was easy to convince people where I work to buy a few copies for everyone. I'm probably the only one with some real interest in something like PCL though. 15:27:28 So there's some hope C@W will get me in the right ballbark. 15:27:33 gigamonkey: how about a book on duct tape 15:27:38 Jafet: my needs are fairly modest. ;-) 15:27:39 i heard it's a hot topic these days 15:28:23 gigamonkey will be the DTD Guru 15:28:25 http://www.2advanced.com/ <- Don't you wish your whole desktop environment was like this? 15:28:33 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:28:47 On StackOverflow oday I'll be talking about all-time great computer books. Any favorites that I'm unlikely to have on my own list? 15:28:50 the duct tape article hit home pretty close at a certain place where i used to work. turns out "duct tape" has always been their development model and now they have a buzzword to show for it. 15:29:01 I.e. books every developer should read. 15:29:02 gigamonkey: what's your short list? 15:29:07 gigamonkey: SI... oh wait 15:29:25 froydnj: hang on, it's on a different computer. 15:29:43 Makoryu: no, actually, I don't 15:29:54 Dawgmatix: i'm sure there must be a way to commercialize it 15:29:54 froydnj: *My* short list? Easy: PCL and C@W. ;-) 15:30:01 gigamonkey: The Mythical Man-month 15:30:15 blinky irrelevant things and industrial clanking are not what I look for in a working environment 15:30:17 there's a reason that real computer interfaces don't look like those ones they have in the movies 15:30:18 Sadly, it never becomes obsolete. 15:30:29 Makoryu: "We have detected that you don't have Flash 8 installed" - not my ideal desktop 15:30:33 gigamonkey: shocking! 15:30:38 sanxiyn [n=tinuviel@110.76.72.94] has joined #lisp 15:30:45 xan: Aside from that part I mean 15:30:51 if we ever do get such interfaces, the movies will start showing antiquated unix command lines as the UI 15:30:52 xan, but we demand Flash 8 on your desktop, we do 15:31:05 Dawgmatix: And that would be *excellent* 15:31:05 (it has been semi-jokingly claimed that Windows Mobile 7 will use StarTrek TNG interfaces, due to Microsoft's current fixation on OLED screens) 15:31:11 also, foreboding wind noises in the background? plz. 15:31:22 oh, books every developer should read. /me is sad 15:31:25 (OLED screens use lots of power and wear out fast showing white, so a black background is desirable) 15:31:43 gigamonkey pasted "StackOverflow top books" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87900 15:31:49 rsynnott: What is OLED's advantage then? 15:31:53 as long as they have emacs running on the new computer and i can run it in terminal mode, I am fine 15:32:03 sanxiyn: er, right now, it doesn't really seem to have any 15:32:13 sanxiyn - the colors really pop. so if youre really into flowers you will love OLED. 15:32:13 looks very nice, as long as it's in a dimly lit room 15:32:19 That's the list extracted from the top vote getters when the question was asked on StackOverflow. 15:32:27 Dawgmatix: With a transparent terminal background showing 3D animation, you mean? 15:32:33 uses very little power for black-background content 15:32:49 -!- amaron [n=amaron@93.86.161.198] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:32:51 and can be made much thinner than lcd 15:32:55 Makoryu - yes when i think 21st century geek porn thats exactly what i have in mind. 15:32:57 Makoryu: I see you hate users enough that you want to destroy their eyes prematurely 15:33:08 rsynnott: perfect for foo-on-black terminal users! 15:33:11 gigamonkey: Gödel, Escher, Bach? 15:33:18 let me tell you that this is easier with 60W laser mounted on a monitor 15:33:20 gigamonkey: _The Practice of Programming_ by Kernighan and Pike, too 15:33:22 SICP is on there. No Norvig or other Lisp books but I'm not sure those are for every developer. (Except that everyone *should* learn Lisp.) 15:33:22 gigamonkey: some of them pretty generic propaganda type books, and some are reference material 15:33:24 once they improve the longevtiy of the blue a bit, and reduce power requirements of the blue, and make it much cheaper, it'll be very nice 15:33:26 froydnj: good one. 15:33:38 headfirst design patterns!! 15:33:45 Dawgmatix: I'm just reporting. 15:33:48 antifuchs: With a warning label that used to say "DO NOT LOOK DIRECTLY INTO LASER" but with the "DO NOT" crossed out? 15:33:48 right now, it's a niche product 15:33:50 that list makes me uncomfortable somehow 15:33:51 *head explodes* 15:34:03 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:05 like, knuth by the side of agile books 15:34:06 Makoryu: "Do not look into laser with remaining eye" 15:34:10 it's just does not combine 15:34:12 Xof: yeah. So what are the books that should be on a better list? 15:34:35 antifuchs: Well played :p 15:34:35 gigamonkey: javascript: the good parts [there is something good, there], smalltalk: best practice patterns [by Kent Beck] (to keep in the style of the list) 15:34:35 hehe giga, not picking on you but its amazing to think if we had 10 books to pass on the wisdom of the ages ... 15:34:44 gigamonkey: I think it was the Brad Fitzpatrick interview where he is describing what his ideal language would be and I'm wanting to scream "That's Lisp!!!" simultaneously wondering how you contained yourself. 15:34:51 varjag: Does "SICP" belong to propaganda books 15:34:53 well, I don't know. Maybe I am too academically-inclined to talk about what developers should read 15:35:05 tmh: who says I did? (Those interviews are edited, you know.) 15:35:06 Alice's Adventures in Wonderland 15:35:08 i think "The Little Schemer" belongs there 15:35:17 that list reads to me like "here is how to work around brokenness", which is a lot about what a developer does day-to-day 15:35:21 Dawgmatix: it's there. 15:35:25 Though I #$%@#%$ hated that book. 15:35:28 sanxiyn: not really, but neither a reference 15:35:31 *rsynnott* is still blissfully ignorant of what 'Agile' even means 15:35:40 the books I would like every developer to read are the ones that explain what it should all be about 15:35:40 ahh i missed that line 15:35:42 really ? 15:35:47 varjag: It does have its agenda and tries to promote it very hard 15:35:48 Xof: such as? 15:35:56 Feynman Lectures on Computation :-) 15:35:59 gigamonkey: Heh, good. I'm glad you edited it out, I think the interviews are better presented with you as a 'neutral' interviewer. 15:36:00 Xof: we're just mechanics, not physicists or even engineers ;) 15:36:00 Xof: +1 15:36:01 it was a fun travel read for me. :) 15:36:02 my flatmate has meetings called 'scrums' at work, which I suspect may be Agile or something similar; all sounds a bit terrifying :) 15:36:05 Oddball choice --- "The Craft of Prolog". Kinda sloppily assembled out of bits of gems. Another one of those books that changes your thinking. 15:36:11 AMOP 15:36:18 tmh: it's not like I started yelling at him or anything. 15:36:22 sanxiyn: yes, it does and it promotes, but it has hard parts unlike most propaganda books 15:36:24 namor [n=namor@87.77.188.94] has joined #lisp 15:36:26 also, Muchnick, not the dragon book 15:36:27 Xof: that's a good one (for my purposes.) 15:36:38 hmm will look into the craft of prolog 15:36:39 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:40 I think instead of the dragon book, EoPL would be a better choice 15:36:44 varjag, http://www.ibiblio.org/Dave/Dr-Fun/df200002/df20000210.jpg 15:36:45 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:57 Mackay's _Information Theory, Pattern Recognition and Neural Networks_ 15:37:04 I want some sort of debugging book there 15:37:05 sanxiyn: i'm not using "propaganda" in derogatory case here though 15:37:08 or my favorite, _Engineering a Compiler_ (Muchnik is good, but a bit more advanced) 15:37:08 rsynnott: I think you beat the crap out of each other while writing code, then go out and drink a lot of beer and shout things at women in the pub. 15:37:11 s/case/sense 15:37:13 i hear you sanxi :) 15:37:17 maybe Jones & Lins on GC 15:37:18 rpg: hmm, is that the prolog book which contains the line 'aless(avocado, clergyman).'? :) 15:37:26 Dawgmatix: What do you recommend? 15:37:36 Jones & Lins, yes. 15:37:40 as a debugger ? 15:37:43 gigamonkey: Nope, but if you were caught advocating lisp in the book, I think the language zealots would use that as a huge critique of the book. Granted, I haven't finished it yet, so if you have advocated it somewhere, don't tell me. 15:37:45 probably loads of other books that I haven't read because I'm an academic :-) 15:37:48 Jafet: heh.. esp. the part about tt fonts 15:37:51 rsynnott: Quite possibly! 15:37:52 Jones & Lins need to do a second edition 15:38:04 Dawgmatix: A book explaining, eh, theory of debugging, so to speak 15:38:22 sanxiyn: _Why Programs Fail_ is the book you're looking for 15:38:25 A friend of mine swears by Introduction to Functional Programming Using Haskell by Bird. 15:38:29 froydnj: Oh. 15:38:29 everything i learnt about debugging, i learnt from the school of hard knocks. 15:38:32 Nichomachean Ethics, for some sort of view on what it's all about 15:38:42 It's looking at me reproachfully from my bookshelf, still unread. 15:38:51 Dawgmatix: Do you think that is necessary (that is, most of knowledge is not transferrable in book form?) 15:39:22 gigamonkey: also, the C IAQ and the C++ FQA 15:39:25 Personally, I recommend "Self-Service Linux", grossly mistitled book ever. 15:39:27 sanxiyn: it's a bit basic in some parts, but it's an excellent explanation of how debugging is supposed to work 15:39:32 (Capital, at least [well, most] Volume 1, for another view on what 'all' and 'about' might mean, without getting too far into metaphysics) 15:39:36 no, i think it could be transferable, but nothing internalises a lesson like spending a weekend on the command line :D 15:39:51 Self-Service Linux starts with general debugging principles (best I read) in 100 pages, and then goes to practicality. 15:40:07 I'm sorry these aren't in paste comments --- some of these I'll probably forget.... 15:40:35 I found algebra of programming fairly interesting in that it formalises and mechanises algorithmic techniques, reducing the need for "eureka" moments. 15:40:38 Trivia: Why Programs Fail won the Jolt Productivity Award the same year as PCL. 15:40:51 Is there any higher-level thing for network programming than sockets in lisp? Something to transparently share state? Couldn't find anything yet. 15:41:25 rpg: maybe gigamonkey will write a metabook 15:41:31 any recommendations for computer architecture books ? ive always missed out on that part of the CS world 15:41:41 Xof: Like, review of best computer books published? 15:41:52 sanxiyn: interviews with books! 15:41:56 Books@Work 15:42:05 Dawgmatix: I found any textbooks servicable... 15:42:11 *Xof* attempts to achieve something 15:42:14 schoppenhauer1 [n=senjak@138.246.7.137] has joined #lisp 15:42:14 -!- galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:42:16 Not sure what you are looking for 15:42:20 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 15:42:27 -!- schoppenhauer1 [n=senjak@138.246.7.137] has quit [Client Quit] 15:42:55 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 15:43:26 anything that helps me understand pkhuongs blog posts ;) 15:43:31 Dawgmatix: there's plenty of stuff, depending on level you want to focus on 15:43:50 cs-theoretic, hardware down to gate level, from programming pov etc 15:43:59 gigamonkey annotated #87900 "suggestions from past few minutes" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87900#1 15:44:04 well largely from programming pov 15:44:24 nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-161-71-17.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:31 chuj w dup temu co sprzeda dzielnicowemu 15:44:50 largely to be able to run disassemble on some functiona and try to understand why its slow ... 15:44:51 Hello all. 15:44:56 hey nyef 15:45:02 hello. 15:45:05 hi nyef 15:45:13 hey 15:45:17 so you want to understand the performance properties of ICKY MODERN x86es? :) 15:45:28 oh yes, the c++ fqa 15:45:29 the_unmaker [n=g@w005.z209031033.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:39 well yes :) 15:45:39 that's one of the better propaganda out there 15:45:40 To my amusement, it appears that pjb has been hacking on a libusb wrapper. 15:46:02 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 15:46:14 Dawgmatix: read intel's and amd's optimisation guides. 15:46:21 nyef: Why does it amuses you? 15:46:33 okay pkhuong :) 15:46:39 matimago: Because of lh-usb. 15:46:50 lh-usb is sbcl specific. 15:46:55 I'm using cffi. 15:47:25 Someone ported it. 15:47:25 Perhaps I should have had a closer look at lh-usb, and tried to port it? 15:47:47 It's linux-specific more than sbcl-specific. 15:48:03 Are the Feynman Lectures on Computation really good? 15:48:06 Well libusb works also on Darwin, and probably on other systems. 15:48:16 Okay, that's a little more plausible. 15:48:24 I did it in August, was lh-usb already ported? 15:48:41 gigamonkey: I found it quite interesting. 15:48:43 The other amusing part, though, is that talking to USB devices from Lisp is a road I've been down already. 15:48:54 gigamonkey: Maybe not much help in actually implementing something. 15:48:58 (And actually, while I intend to run it on linux, I was using Darwin to write develop it). 15:49:06 Yeah, it was a while ago. I'm trying to remember who. 15:49:28 why does everyone like The Pragmatic Programmer so much? it just tells you a lot of stuff you already knew to make you feel warm and fuzzy and validated 15:49:33 I shall have a look at it when I resume working on it (not before December). 15:49:48 lukego: Right, but you can give the book to colleagues. 15:49:51 lukego: That's very valuable. 15:49:53 matimago: Fair enough. 15:49:54 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:49:55 ejs1 [n=eugen@23-193-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:58 Well, no one asked for useful or enlightening texts, only likeable 15:50:04 lukego: it's good, because it targets fellow programmers to draw them to Lisp. 15:50:07 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:50:32 lukego: basically, an evangelization tool :-) 15:50:49 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:50:54 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-hhczuotdiuglsflh] has joined #lisp 15:50:56 And "Practical" is a politically-correct term you cannot go against. 15:51:10 I didn't like PP. they're selling a false sense of superiority, and make stuff up off the cuff ("Learn one language per year" - sounds fantastic, but a year isn't enough if you actually try to do it, as many interested readers quickly discovered) 15:51:14 matimago: Practical Common Lisp :) 15:51:16 gigamonkey: right, Feyman on Computation will not help anyone build a Web 2.0 online shop any time soon 15:51:25 lukego: It also serves as a reminder as to what's important, for those people who get distracted with other issues. 15:51:35 Xof: but it's good stuff? 15:51:53 I.e. if you hadn't read it yet, being who you are now, would you enjoy reading it? 15:51:55 splittist: I've read the JS book you recommended. It's good, but I don't think it's worthy to enter the pantheon. 15:52:04 gigamonkey: If you are interested in things like reversible computation and ultimate limits of computation, yes. 15:52:13 OTOH, my own Craft of Prolog probably fails that test, too... 15:52:47 rpg: though I suspect learning some Prolog would probably be more mind expanding for most folks than learning some Javascript. 15:52:56 Davse_Ba1se [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 15:52:58 gigamonkey: I mentionned earlier that The Analytical Engine was actually completed. In 1992 ;-) 15:53:06 Feynman talks a lot about the physical aspects of computation 15:53:10 rpg: you wrote the craft of prolog ? 15:53:25 JS: The Good Parts could have made it into the pantheon with a couple more edit runs, IMO. It's just not coherent enough, and there's places where it feels like Crockford skimped in order to make a low page count. 15:53:25 It might be very interesting to an electronic engineer, but otherwise 15:53:25 rpg: I would agree. I liked Craft of Prolog, too. But I'm not sure that Refactoring (which I've read) or Headfirst Design Patterns (which I haven't) are really canonical, either. 15:53:50 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:53:51 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 15:53:56 -!- Davse_Ba1se [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 15:53:59 How about TeX: The Program 15:54:04 Suggested retitle: Getting a concussion with design patterns 15:54:08 matimago, lh-usb isn't very sbcl-only anymore 15:54:19 I actually like Refactoring a lot. Though I haven't read it in years; it'd be interesting to see what I think of it now. 15:54:27 deepfire: Yes, I shouldn't have trusted its web page. 15:54:35 sanxiyn: That's a good one for my discusssion, thanks. 15:54:48 gigamonkey: What is your discussion? 15:54:59 matimago: afaik the plans were finished back in 19th century, but no-one was willing to shell out the money :P 15:55:15 I'm going to be on the Stack Overflow podcast this week (to be recorded in a few hours) 15:55:19 Not to mention the upcoming 'CL-PPCRE: The Program annotated by Luke Gorrie', Gigamonkey Press 2010 15:55:24 gigamonkey: Whose topic is? 15:55:27 K&R deserves to be on the top list of programming books, because it's essential, but I don't think it's as enlightening as some of the others.... Interesting question what is meant by this list. 15:55:40 discussing the Stack Overflow question about books every developer should read. 15:55:45 Different things to different people. 15:55:45 Oh. 15:55:51 matimago, I'm not sure if nyef merged my patches, bit: git://git.feelingofgreen.ru/lh-usb 15:55:53 SICP and K&R seem to be in radically different classes of book. 15:56:01 How about "Common Lisp, the Implementation(s)"? 15:56:03 deepfire: thanks. 15:56:04 Heh. lukego: you want to write that book. I was thinking about it but now I'm not sure. But I'll be your editor. 15:56:05 rpg: never read K&R (: 15:56:07 Has anyone here read Sterling's /Analytical Engine/? 15:56:13 I am quite interested in "software engineering" books, so to speak, 15:56:28 fwiw narrowing to books I've actually read, I'd cross off The Pragmatic Programmer and Design Patterns and Dragon Book, I'd underline SICP and The Psychology of Computer Programming, and I'd add Communicating Sequential Processes (usingcsp.com) and also PAIP (on an Algorithms & Compilers ticket, not Lisp). 15:56:32 pkhuong: I'm old. I read the first edition. 15:56:35 Mythical Man-Month is on the list, and I thought of TeX: The Program since it is sort of propaganda to how software should be written 15:56:44 I liked it. I can't remember the detail of what's covered, and sadly it's at home, not here, so I can't be firm 15:56:46 there's some stuff about reversible computing, some about quantum computing iirc 15:56:48 I would add "Producing Open Source Software" there 15:56:50 in typical Feynman style 15:57:00 (What do you think about POSS) 15:57:11 rpg: never finished SICP or PCL either... 15:57:13 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Client Quit] 15:57:22 if by K&R you mean "the C programming language", then I agree that it is essential book. If only to show a no-nonsense approach (unlike certain style popular nowadays) 15:57:44 Heh. Here's a very old list I made when I was teaching Java http://javamonkey.com/books.html 15:58:22 man, just think, when I find a stable place to live I can have my 100 favourite computer books shipped to me from where they've been stashed in Sweden these past two years. (which will make me popular, since as we speak the poor company they're stashed with are moving offices....) 15:58:26 pkhuong: I finished reading SICP (after many years of delaying) just in time for the 2nd edition to come out. 15:58:37 I quite like esr's The Art of Unix Programming, although the author might not be liked by many :) 15:59:16 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:59:22 Any UNIX book? 15:59:27 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:29 (Lions commentary? FreeBSD book?) 15:59:37 The UNIX-Haters Handbook! 15:59:41 Older than the bible, that is 15:59:43 lol 15:59:53 HAKMEM and maybe Warren should be there imo. 16:00:08 Warren is great. 16:00:12 lukego: how about 'The Idealistic Programmer', which is not only the opposite of Pragmatic but fits you to a tee... 16:00:16 Warren ? 16:00:17 Lions commentary.. now there is an opposite to modern software engineering if ever there was one 16:00:20 second edition? 16:00:27 sanxiyn: aforementioned TAoUP, maybe lions book & the design and implementation of 4.4 BSD? 16:00:27 (I presume you'er talking about Hacker's Delight, and not the PPC compiler writers guide?) 16:00:45 o^k: Yes, design and implementation book was what I was thinking about 16:00:48 I don't believe that a human could key in the original Unix sources in the year 2009, any more than we could walk out our front doors naked as we so innocently would a few thousand years ago 16:00:50 who wrote the art? 16:01:00 hi gavino 16:01:03 hey 16:01:07 nyef: right. 16:01:07 lukego: during the iceage? 16:01:15 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:01:29 Age of the furries 16:01:30 splittist: yes - in summer time :) 16:01:32 at least lions book is clear of copyright problems nowadays :D 16:02:12 All books are clear of that nowadays 16:02:20 Does some book on open source belong there? (About its methodology) 16:02:26 hm I have 8-year-old lists of programming book recommendations here http://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A2ZODN1XYD6ASS 16:02:27 (If so, which one?) 16:02:47 I'd suggest that the most important books for a developer to read have nothing to do with computers. 16:02:58 reading about TCP/IP by Comer or Stevens is really a must 16:03:04 Jafet: untrue. in USA copyright is basically infinite, because most source code appeared after Mickey Mouse ;-) 16:03:19 lukego: Oh yes, TCP/IP book. 16:03:33 Software Reliability and The Art of Software Testing by Glenford J. Myers 16:03:37 o^k, untrue, not all of us live in the USA 16:03:44 I have to reread EoPL to be sure whether it was enlightening or whether it went straight over my head, I really can't remember what its main lessons were :) 16:03:47 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:03:50 Some of us, in fact, live in Sweden 16:03:52 How Buildings Learn, by Stewart Brand (really a book about programming) 16:03:52 And Object Oriented Software Construction by Bertrand Meyer 16:04:01 How about "How to Solve It"? (Not a programming book) 16:04:13 Design of Everyday Things 16:04:14 eric raymond is not liked by many? 16:04:24 the_unmaker: No, he isn't. 16:04:29 Tufte 16:04:38 does he criticism people or something? 16:04:38 Jafet: that's why I'm not going to visit USA, they have a history of arresting people from other countries like they committed crimes on USA soil ;-) 16:04:44 and I never actually seriously read Applied Cryptography, I was just following the crowd by putting that on the list 16:04:45 I also liked Expert C Programming: Deep C Secrets by Peter van der Linden 16:04:51 criticise 16:05:21 gigamonkey: ever play with plan9? libthread seemed interesting, using csp 16:05:28 I never did. 16:05:36 the_unmaker: Plan 9 is indeed full of interesting ideas 16:05:38 _deepfire pasted "cvs slime/1.0.31.22 error on win32, during startup" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87901 16:05:52 Software Tools in Pascal (Kernighan and Plauger) [never read the original fortran/ratfor version] - building your environment around you 16:05:55 gigamonkey: do you ever consider making a web MVC platform? 16:05:55 giga - yes expert c programming is my second favorite C book (after the Steele book, which I much prefer to C&R because of its exhaustive index) 16:06:08 sanxiyn: Plan 9 + Plan B, both 4ed, make a *very* interesting environment ;) 16:06:11 *:-) 16:06:19 steele is a c book? 16:06:29 there is a Steele C book :) 16:06:30 -!- Numlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:06:36 the_unmaker: he's written more than one book, you know. 16:06:40 H&S C 16:06:46 wow he knows c AND lisp 16:07:11 *Xach* briefly forgets the_unmaker is gavino 16:07:18 Craft of Prolog I haven't read, but it was Joe Armstrong's favourite book (along with Project Oberon) 16:07:36 http://www.careferencemanual.com/ 16:07:45 the_unmaker: "He [Steele] served on the standards bodies that defined Common Lisp, Fortran, C, ECMAScript, and Scheme." 16:08:00 Right. 16:08:05 ... and he helped to document the Java spec. 16:08:22 http://www.codersatwork.com/guy-steele.html 16:08:42 gigamonkey: ... which patently violates Norvig's suggestion, "Have the good sense to get off the language standardization effort as quickly as possible". 16:08:55 sanxiyn: well, he got off, and on to another. 16:08:56 Or was he trying to quit as quickly as possible? :) 16:09:35 What would be sad would be if he was still working on Scheme. 16:09:52 why would that be sad ? 16:10:10 ah you mean if he didnt work on anything else :) 16:10:18 Dawgmatix: because look at the ... you got it. 16:10:25 it would be like lukego still working on slime, instead of flitting from project to project, spreading joy and love. 16:10:31 sanxiyn: sometimes you are idealistic and hang to assumption that you might do some good :P 16:10:48 -!- ejs [n=eugen@23-193-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:11:15 gigamonkey: I think he is *still* at defining languages? (This time Fortress?) 16:11:23 Yes. 16:11:28 but he was on the scheme steering committee till recently. because he is guy steele he can decide the fate of more than one programming language at the same time. 16:11:30 o^k: Plan B? 16:12:01 slime already has too many features for its own good :) 16:12:15 lukego: The O'Keefe book is interesting both because O'Keefe is so brilliant (and fussy) and because Prolog is so radically anti side-effects. 16:12:16 luke - it isnt self aware yet. 16:12:45 btw does it still say "Lemonodor-fame is but a hack away!" ? because that's some dated shit! 16:12:54 Dawgmatix: What good is self-awareness? 16:13:20 i need to be told when to go outside to take a walk. 16:13:20 sanxiyn: "I refuse to work" 16:13:53 lukego: yeah, I was wondering about that the other day. What happened to Lemonodor? 16:14:09 dunno. I ping'd him for a beer when I was in LA, but didn't hear back 16:14:32 -!- namor [n=namor@87.77.188.94] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:14:37 Xach: oh sorry I missed the context and thought you were reprimanding me for not hacking slime still :) 16:14:44 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:14:53 It's beyond dated, it's quirkily classic! 16:14:56 *Xach* wouldn't dream of it 16:15:08 Ok, ignore my bugreport, I mistakenly applied my "fix", which was no longer appropriate with new version of slime. 16:15:15 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 16:15:16 you can only get lemonodor-fame these days by personally disabling a V-1 rocket with your spitfire 16:15:17 I think someone mentioned Goedel Escher Bach -- tour de force, but is it still relevant today, its AI content? 16:15:28 (I guess no.) 16:15:31 deepfire: Your "fix"? 16:15:48 jmignault [n=jmignaul@sassafras.nybg.org] has joined #lisp 16:15:52 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:58 rpg: there's an extension to Plan 9, in form of a set of applications, called Plan B 16:16:05 -!- jmignault [n=jmignaul@sassafras.nybg.org] has quit [Client Quit] 16:16:11 jmignault [n=jmignaul@sassafras.nybg.org] has joined #lisp 16:16:13 sanxiyn: why wouldn't it be? 16:16:25 rpg: it follows the model of a "personal mainframe", with multiple terminals 16:16:34 xan: Haven't we learned something since the book was published? 16:16:47 (Even things that would make old materials obsolete?) 16:16:51 -!- o^k is now known as p_l 16:17:05 sanxiyn: the little details on the matter that appear in the book are totally irrelevant 16:17:07 p_l: Link? 16:17:37 xan: So you still think strange loop is important in AI? 16:17:39 sanxiyn: I don't have a link now, but it's easy to find on google - the same team now works on Octopus, which is extension of that idea based mostly on Inferno 16:18:23 sanxiyn: I'm not a profesional on the topic, but my impression is that it's likely relevant yes. 16:19:40 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@76.90.95.39] has quit [] 16:20:57 -!- jmignault [n=jmignaul@sassafras.nybg.org] has left #lisp 16:21:00 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:11 My laptop is just an extension of my workstation. I keep them synced manually. It is starting to really make me appreciate the concepts behind Plan 9/Inferno. I would love it if my system presented itself as a single environment. I don't want the cloud, per say, more like a balloon with a string. 16:21:12 *rpg* has been resisting the temptation to pour large N of hours down the drain installing Plan 9 somewhere. 16:21:28 rpg: I think you can get pre set-up VM these days. 16:21:34 rpg: me too, although it might be a good candidate for VirtualBox. 16:21:46 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:21:54 sanxiyn: Thanks. That's interesting.... 16:22:34 nyef, there was a problem in slime/win32 where it was misinitialising its streams, causing debugger invocations to be fatal 16:22:35 legumbre [n=user@190.135.47.181] has joined #lisp 16:22:36 installing plan9 is easy 16:22:37 -!- fxr [n=user@a.mx.core.gen.tr] has left #lisp 16:22:46 has anyone tried compiling PowerLoom with SBCL lately? 16:22:50 using the 3 button mouse driven interface, that is a trick 16:22:54 gigamonkey: so btw where do we vote on what we want you to write next? :) 16:23:00 rpg: there's also 9vx, which is a special kernel that runs as userspace application 16:23:14 lukego: with your wallet. ;-) 16:23:20 Oh, you asked, "where". 16:23:32 rpg: it's not plan9 kernel, but gives the same interface to applications 16:23:36 gigamonkey: How do I vote with my wallet? 16:23:38 gigamonkey: you've abandoned the c@w fan clubhouse 16:23:44 lukego: what's your vote. 16:23:45 p_l: very interesting.... 16:23:47 nyef, with recent slime it's no longer a problem and my patch became disruptive 16:23:57 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:24:04 deepfire: Ah. Fair enough. 16:24:12 felideon: whoops. Forgot to rejoin. 16:24:17 btw, your book is in the mail. 16:24:24 nice. thanks. 16:24:24 felideon: Are you working with PowerLoom? I tried for a while, but I couldn't build a good mental model of its inference incompletenesses, so I gave up. 16:24:28 sanxiyn: bribe me? 16:24:32 gigamonkey: actually I have to consider my vote. I will let you know :) 16:24:33 Oh. 16:24:37 how do I make my name a pretty color? 16:24:47 -!- the_unmaker is now known as gws 16:24:48 the_unmaker: /nick Mauve 16:24:52 rpg: I just downloaded it yesterday at work, on Windows and SBCL 1.0.29. read the first demo. 16:24:52 gigamonkey: Can we buy the book direct from you? 16:25:07 rpg: Coders? 16:25:12 gigamonkey: Yes. 16:25:22 rpg: but I tried compiling here on the Mac, with SBCL 1.0.31 and I get an error 16:25:27 Well, certain people have been buying signed copies. 16:25:33 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:25:48 *felideon* whistles away 16:25:55 gigamonkey: Is this a general offer? 16:26:02 gigamonkey: how microcomputers made everyone forget about lisp machines/smalltalk/etc and pretty much halted progress in many areas for 25 years and how people are slowly rediscovering the same stuff we already knew? 16:26:03 Sure. 16:26:32 xan: well, one theory of a future book is a giant book about the history of software and how it is developed. 16:26:37 That presumably would be covered. 16:26:38 gigamonkey: Then I'll drop you an email, if that's ok, and see about getting one. I'm really looking forward to getting it. 16:26:40 History! 16:26:43 I love history, plz plz 16:26:52 Especially because I was born in 1985 16:27:03 rpg: cool. Note, it's probably cheaper and likely also faster to get it from Amazon. 16:27:07 gigamonkey: does it cost more with your signature? 16:27:09 felideon: The problem with PowerLoom is that it's really an FOPC prover, so it must be incomplete (practically speaking), and it was very hard for me to guess what inferences it would produce and which it would (spuriously) fail to. 16:27:25 gigamonkey: sounds good, go for it :) 16:27:29 stassats: well, the signature is cheap. But I don't discount quite as heavily as Amazon does. 16:27:34 milanj [n=milan@77.46.219.4] has joined #lisp 16:27:38 jlf [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 16:27:50 gigamonkey: you can name it "The Art of Computer Science History" and publish one volume every 10 years or something 16:27:52 gigamonkey: From my PoV, I'd love to have the autographed version, and I assume (hope) that you get more $$$ from the direct order than from an Amazon order. 16:28:24 That I do. 16:28:28 how about "The History of Computer Programming"? 16:28:54 Though if you went through http://www.codersatwork.com/ and then bought a bunch of other stuff at Amazon, I'd also make a fair bit. ;-) 16:28:58 Just History of Programming. 16:29:10 rpg: Hmm I see. I did read their overview slides where they sacrifice completeness for expressiveness. 16:29:14 Too boring -- go for "How to be less stupid". 16:29:23 I've always wanted to write a one-word titled book so I was thinking simply "Software" 16:29:30 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:29:34 Zhivago: "The Idiot's Guide to Being Less Stupid" 16:29:44 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@23-193-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:29:46 gigamonkey: That's cool too. 16:29:54 gigamonkey: Like "Hackers" by Steven Levy 16:30:18 gigamonkey: actually I reckon you can take a year off after Coders :) 16:30:21 (Or "Crypto" for that matter) 16:30:29 gigamonkey: why restrict yourself by naming it after the topic? 16:30:32 go with "Book" 16:30:40 lukego: We'll see. I really have no idea. 16:30:45 gigamonkey: what other stuff? PCL? 16:31:07 I can't believe that the "The Album" meme hasn't made it over to writers already 16:31:11 felideon: Anything. Doesn't have to be by me. 16:31:28 As long as it's bought in a session that started via one of my Amazo links, I get a piece of the action. 16:32:21 felideon: That's normal, but if you're going to use it as a KR framework, you really need to be able to have a mental model of which inferences it will make given some set of input formulas. Maybe someone has a good sense of that, but I couldn't develop one. 16:32:22 For instance, yesterday someone bought a Dirt Devil 08220 Filter with F5 Adapter, for Quick Flip Corded Handheld Vacuum, earning me $0.40. 16:32:58 gigamonkey: heh. a friend of mine got a pretty nice kickback when someone bought a car from ebay autos after an unrelated affiliate link-in. 16:33:12 gigamonkey: oh I see what you mean. I skipped over the URL and assumed amazon.com 16:33:26 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:34:06 rpg: I see what you mean. What would you or do you use instead? 16:36:39 -!- tsuru` [n=user@c-76-22-154-126.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 16:37:34 felideon: I wish I had a good answer for you. For a while I used classic LOOM, because I had a better sense of the inferences it would perform. Then it turned out that those weren't the inferences I was looking for :-/ 16:37:40 By the way 16:37:47 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 16:37:52 [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.82.233] has joined #lisp 16:37:58 felideon: What do you want? A logic prover, or a description logic prover? 16:38:05 gigamonkey: I remember seeing more names for Coders at Work (sixteen?) than was published; what happened to other interviews? 16:38:31 levy_ [n=levy@89.223.250.233] has joined #lisp 16:38:35 (Miguel de Icaza?) 16:38:43 There were three people who at one point or another agreed to be interviewed: Alan Kay, Miguel de Icazza, and Anders Hejlsberg. 16:38:53 Kay actually withrdew due to time constraints. 16:38:56 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-2-252.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:39:02 The other two just went dark when I tried to actually schedule the interviews. 16:39:08 oh 16:39:12 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:39:17 gigamonkey: Anders Hejlsberg = C#? 16:39:21 rpg: I'm just interested learning about KR systems in general 16:39:21 Adlai: yeah. 16:39:26 Too bad, I would have really enjoyed reading an interview with Alan Kay 16:39:47 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:39:49 gigamonkey: what happened to Anders H.? 16:39:52 Then I was sort of hoping to maybe get Torvalds or Carmack at the last minute so didn't try to hard to fill the 16th slot with anyone else. 16:40:05 I actually find C# intriguing, from the little bit I've heard 16:40:12 felideon: he just flaked. After agreeing to be interviewed, I couldn't get a response from him about setting up a time to talk. 16:40:21 Miguel de Icaza, because I somehow think "open source movement" is underrepresented (not represented?) in the book. 16:40:39 Adlai: especially since they're adding functional/dynamic features. LINQ, lambda, dynamics vars 16:40:39 But interviewing rms wouldn't be that interesting. 16:40:39 gigamonkey: In the expanded 2nd Edition. :-) 16:40:55 felideon: well, C++0x is gonna have lambda too O_o 16:40:57 Coders Still at Work 16:41:01 (Or Torvalds for that matter. We read their interviews enough elsewhere.) 16:41:38 Grace Hopper if she were alive :) 16:41:38 <[Jackal]> Perl 6 will have everything. 16:41:46 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.87.164] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:41:56 <[Jackal]> Ada Lovelace ;> 16:42:05 [Jackal]: Except for s-exps and macros! 16:42:05 *tmh* hands [Jackal] the "Non Sequitor" award for the day. 16:42:06 As I said in a recent blog post, I do regret not trying to interview Amy Fowler. 16:43:49 <[Jackal]> tmh: Is that award ceremony to be held in Switzerland? ;> 16:44:09 [Jackal]: Virtually, of course. :-) 16:45:05 Man, my spelling has been painfully phonetic today. 16:45:15 felideon: then PowerLoom might be fine. 16:45:26 Adlai: it will have macros and Sexps would be available in some crazy form ;-) 16:45:49 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:01 rpg: cool. but probably description logics, since I'm not too sure how a logic prover differs (I've only read about the former). 16:46:52 *sanxiyn* now reading gigamonkey's blog post on Duct tape controversy 16:47:16 rpg: have you ever tried e-mailing the PowerLoom discussion group? 16:47:31 gigamonkey: oh yeah, thanks for that clarification on the jwz comments 16:47:35 felideon: Yes. It's sporadically active. The PL developers seem reasonably responsive. 16:47:45 felideon: Using STELLA seemed really painful. 16:48:14 rpg: really? how so? so far it has seemed bareable (haven't done anything complex). lispy syntax and all 16:48:36 gigamonkey: Does jwz have a Matrix delusion or something? 16:49:28 felideon: ? 16:49:50 sanxiyn: http://www.jwz.org 16:50:40 and his blog 16:50:55 his home page kinda of cool actually 16:53:03 And on Netscape rewrite 16:53:13 And God shall smite whoever invented Mork format 16:54:01 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@pool-71-186-133-56.bflony.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:54:08 felideon: Traversing their collections was extremely nasty. Everything's boxed in STELLA objects, and the API for extracting real lisp stuff for my surrounding program was erratic. 16:54:48 RenJuan [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:55:22 gotcha 16:57:30 Mork? 16:57:39 how can I check to see if something is a list? 16:57:53 adlai: Anders also did Turbo Pascal. 16:57:56 clhs listp 16:57:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_listp.htm 16:58:02 ahh yeah, thanks 16:58:02 p_l: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mork_%28file_format%29 16:58:58 there's also consp, it will tell if something is a cons, that is excluding NIL 16:59:00 felideon: Note that this was a couple of years ago, but I didn't get the sense that people were spending a lot of time on CL -> PowerLoom API issues. 17:00:02 ejs [n=eugen@23-193-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:09 p_l: jwz's opinion of Mork is http://www.jwz.org/doc/mailsum.html 17:00:18 rpg: alright, thanks. I'll have that in mind if I find myself using PowerLoom in a project or something. 17:00:31 "My code had summary files that were on the order of 2% of the size of the folder they were summarizing, and was blazingly fast in all respects. The 4.0 code had an overhead closer to 30% (last time I checked) and was insanely slow. But they were databases and C++ so they were better." 17:01:02 And in the comments here: http://www.jwz.org/hacks/mork.pl 17:01:20 -!- postamar [n=postamar@206-248-165-246.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:01:57 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:02:51 rpg: I found PowerLoom pretty much by Googling: common lisp ontology or something like that 17:02:59 postamar [n=postamar@206-248-165-246.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 17:04:12 gigamonkey: lol 17:06:29 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:07:08 -!- felideon is now known as felideon_away 17:07:52 anyone know howto exit stumpwm 17:07:57 off top of thier head 17:08:04 the equiv of ctl alt backspace in other wm 17:08:08 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:08:25 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-zfasuqhevqbmrlvi] has joined #lisp 17:08:28 Numlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 17:08:33 ctrl-alt-backspace is a universal X key 17:08:33 gws: C-M-Backspace kills X actually 17:08:49 ah 17:09:01 so if i ran startx with stumpwm setup from terminal 17:09:07 and I want to exit stump 17:09:11 how? 17:09:12 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177075091.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:09:24 stassats - ctrl-alt-backspace is disabled in new versions of X (because it tripped noob's up) 17:09:28 no exit binding I can see sofar 17:09:35 Dawgmatix: Really? WTF. 17:09:43 im stuck in stump! 17:09:46 lol 17:09:56 [totally going back to iceWM 17:09:58 ] 17:10:02 <--puss 17:10:04 gws: C-t ? should show you the help menu 17:10:13 yeah nothing says exit in the menu 17:10:22 gws: I used to use IceWM, but now I switched to LXDE and am happy. 17:10:26 gws - use the reset button :D 17:10:29 gws: If you like IceWM... 17:10:39 lx who? 17:10:44 LXDE 17:10:50 http://www.lxde.org/ 17:11:16 gavino never changes 17:11:40 -!- gws [n=g@w005.z209031033.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:12:09 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:12:10 I mean, I liked IceWM, but this was too much: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=452197 17:12:22 the_unmaker [n=g@w005.z209031033.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:27 (Although it was apparently not IceWM's fault) 17:12:28 -!- the_unmaker is now known as gws 17:12:30 ah 17:12:35 home sweet iceWM home 17:13:52 lxde looks like it has too many features for me 17:14:07 gws: It really doesn't... 17:14:08 which is kind of a funny statement 17:14:11 I really want only a taskbar and a min all button and a xterm start button 17:14:21 which is what icewm gives me 17:14:31 Yeah, and system tray 17:14:35 the tiling stuff is too much to learn and pisses me off when I wana split screens 17:14:43 LXDE does desktop, which is of questionable value indeed. 17:15:03 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:15:19 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177075091.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:21 gws: tiling is perfect for splitting your screen 17:15:35 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@85.4.220.156] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 17:16:06 g 2792 0.1 0.1 9948 4684 tty1 S 10:11 0:00 icewm 17:16:06 "C-t S" and I have my two most recent windows split across my screen 17:16:18 yes but the whole ctl -t then something was slowing me down 17:16:35 I tried dwm too but splitting screen always gives me trouble 17:16:45 with iceWM nothing to learn 17:16:54 problem solved 17:16:58 It's not that far from Emacs, and you can redefine the keys to whatever is most comfortable 17:17:13 never really used emacs much 17:17:24 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:38 gws: I tend to agree; if I didn't constantly meet X server bug with IceWM (since apparently nobody developing X server uses one?), I would have continued. 17:17:58 I split the scren in stump, and to get to the lower one I still had to use keys, and i forgot which one of the 8 windows open was the one right below so it was liek hunting around 17:18:19 icewm bug ,,, what happens? 17:18:35 I feel like I am a traitor to lisp :( 17:18:42 but iceWM makes me happier than stump 17:18:46 gws: I remember Alt-Tab locking up the X server, mysterious crash, and other unhappiness. 17:18:58 yikes 17:19:00 gws: Happened quite frequently. 17:19:05 After using StumpWM for a beet, I find that having to fiddle with "the rat" to manipulate windows is incredibly annoying 17:19:07 never saw that 17:19:15 On the other hand, there is a solution: 17:19:20 DO NOT UPGRADE X SERVER 17:19:26 see I use firefox and pidgin 17:19:28 (Until tested by other users) 17:19:30 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 17:19:32 gws: ctrl- gets me where im going pretty quickly 17:19:33 so i usually have to goto the rat 17:19:37 work email is in firefox 17:20:03 mcspiff: that works in stump? hmm 17:20:06 gws: I use Conkeror, and an Emacs plugin IRC client 17:20:07 hmmm 17:20:12 Adlai: I agree. But you can setup IceWM or LXDE so that every window just appears in the correct place you preconfigured. 17:20:20 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 17:20:29 (Correct size, etc.) 17:20:30 I can us emouse and go through eveything 17:20:32 gws: does for me, and I dont remember setting it up 17:20:37 ctl t was killing me 17:20:46 mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.70.177] has joined #lisp 17:20:56 Conkeror is a Mozilla-based browser that's powered by keybindings. Basically the only time I ever touch the mouse is when I want to do continuous scrolling while reading a long webpage 17:21:27 Adlai: Not ? 17:21:40 Ah, continuous. 17:21:43 sanxiyn: that scrolls in chunks 17:21:54 right. I use space and M-v a lot in Conkeror. 17:21:55 Adlai: just set up a similiar setup about a week ago. still getting use to it, but so far so good. 17:22:15 mcspiff: it takes a few weeks to fully adapt, but once you've gotten past that initial stage, it's joy! 17:22:49 Adlai: so far just using a tiling WM has been incredible 17:23:42 hey folks, when does a string-output-stream get flushed? 17:23:52 I use groups much more than I ever used virtual desktops, because hey, its just another key stroke. 17:24:05 is there a standard way to get the function name from (fdefinition 'list)? 17:24:16 rullie: what would it mean to "flush" a string output stream? 17:24:39 Xach: as in clean up the stream, or do I have a wrong understanding of what it is 17:25:00 rullie: I know a bit about string output streams but I don't understand what you're asking. 17:25:10 rullie: What would cleaning up do? Free the memory? 17:25:14 btw, what is the oldest continuously developed software? 17:25:19 sanxiyn: the universe 17:25:32 Xach: [citation needed] 17:25:39 -!- ejs [n=eugen@23-193-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:25:40 ok, software developed by humanity 17:25:42 i bet there's something olde 17:25:44 r 17:25:47 for me the only slowdown is when I have many similar xterm button on my taskbar, and not sure which was like my chat window etc. 17:25:47 levy_: not really, but function-lambda-expression might be helpful 17:26:03 Xach: when I make a string output stream and write some string to it, how do I clean up whatever i wrote to it 17:26:16 maybe an improvement would be to have slightly different color for each button representing a window on the taskbar 17:26:17 rullie: what does "clean up" mean in that context? 17:26:18 is string-output-stream buffered? 17:26:24 clear the buffer? 17:26:32 Xach: as in (get-output-stream-string my-stream) would give a nil 17:26:38 then you could kinda remember that green was chat, and red was webserver login and blue was database server terminal 17:26:41 According to https://www.ohloh.net/blog/worlds_oldest_source_code_repositories 17:26:44 BRL-CAD maintains CVS repository that goes back to 1983 17:26:47 rullie: easy. (get-output-stream-string my-stream) will clear it. 17:26:54 wow? see I am even thinking of improvements! too bad i suck at progrmaming 17:27:07 possibly also CLEAR-OUTPUT? 17:27:09 gws: you mean your years of trolling haven't prepared you for actual programming? 17:27:13 (Surely there are older ones, but having complete version control history...) 17:27:16 Xach: i see. thank you :) 17:27:18 must be just awesome to improve a software that is free 17:27:33 I have ansi common lisp by graham right here 17:27:34 froydnj: hmm, i wouldn't expect that. time to test! 17:27:41 rereading ch2 17:27:58 Xach: I'm not sure this qualifies as trolling... he's not exactly talking trash about stuff he doesn't understand, he's just hanging around and not understanding anything. 17:28:00 [fires up clisp 2.48] 17:28:15 Adlai: it is a chronic pattern stretching back years. 17:28:16 Adlai: for several years 17:28:20 Xach: Ah, is gws a troll? 17:28:21 Adlai: he is famous for it. 17:28:29 Google for "gavino". 17:28:31 I will leave if I bug you .. 17:28:34 Didn't realize. 17:28:44 gws: you're golden. You make me smile :) 17:28:58 Xach: I guess it doesn't have to; CLHS says the effect is "implementation-dependent" 17:29:11 Clueless and hangs around here? I'm a troll :-( 17:29:11 I have issues, I start to learn, forth, lisp , and haskell...get frustrated..and loop 17:29:29 gws: Just write some code. 17:29:34 Everyday. 17:29:39 froydnj: doesn't in practice on sbcl. 17:29:42 Small programs. 17:29:55 gws: i've been using project euler to help myself focus 17:30:32 you think helping gavino will do anything? it's futile 17:30:47 stassats: some things perhaps you have to learn by doing... 17:30:55 Xach: oh well. 17:31:10 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:31:30 in (loop , is "collecting" a synonym for "collect"? 17:31:56 yes 17:33:04 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-206-32-218.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:33:29 shyam [n=shyam@117.204.91.40] has joined #lisp 17:33:37 -!- felideon_away is now known as felideon 17:33:41 Adlai: How do you select and copy text in conkeror? Thats one thing I haven't been able to lose the mouse for 17:35:52 *sanxiyn* love trolls 17:36:10 Although not as much as http://pugs.blogs.com/audrey/2009/08/my-hobby-troll-hugging.html 17:39:13 woohoo! I answered one question on Stack Overflow and already earned my "Teacher" badge. My day is complete! 17:39:56 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:40:02 you can redeem the points and awards for Flooz (or Beenz if you prefer) 17:40:17 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:33 Xach: You can redeem your Beenz for Fartz... 17:40:42 *rpg* is really, really sorry... 17:40:47 gigamonkey: new to SO? 17:41:36 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:41:58 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@116.82.73.92] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:43:15 felideon: yeah. I've peeked at it in the past. 17:44:03 I have two silver badges! 17:44:08 I need a hug 17:44:19 gws: lol 17:44:53 felideon: I have only one, which is "Yearling"... 17:45:19 If I want to add all subdirs to my emacs load path...is there a seperate command for that? 17:46:41 mcspiff: this is #lisp, not #emacs 17:47:58 is there any 'windows 98' style wm in lisp? or are they all tilers? 17:48:16 mcspiff, see the «directory-files» emacs function 17:48:41 gws: Why do you care about which language implements your WM? 17:48:42 see also «file-directory-p» 17:49:30 gws, i'd advise against using a lisp WM. CLX has bugs which result in WM crashes, infinite loops etc. 17:49:39 stassats: A .emacs question is not the most off topic thing i've ever seen here. 17:49:55 mcspiff: only slime questions 17:50:01 stassats, and who are you to tell us what's on topic and what's not? 17:50:02 If you just want to customize WM with Lisp (or Lisp-y syntax language), use one which embeds Scheme or so. 17:50:04 <[Jackal]> mcspiff: (normal-top-level-add-subdirs-to-load-path) 17:50:06 i'll say what i want until someone bans me 17:50:06 Namely Sawfish. 17:50:14 <[Jackal]> That said, #emacs will handle it better. 17:50:24 [Jackal]: thanks 17:50:33 sanxiyn: are you the one that said was born in 85? 17:50:42 felideon: Yes. 17:50:59 Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-11-95.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:51:30 mcspiff, i'm using XFCE which is acceptable, even though not extendable in lisp in any way 17:52:09 well, tray items can be written in anything.. 17:52:33 besides, CLIM is a frakking joke 17:52:41 closure doesn't even support xft out of the box 17:52:42 since you like history as you said, coincidentally this answer gave me one silver badge: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/435990/why-do-programmers-love-hate-objective-c/436201#436201 17:52:45 weirdo: Nice to hear that I'm not alone 17:53:22 i really don't 17:53:35 weirdo: I found CLIM rather nice, except that McCLIM tends to have problems from time to time that exceed my abilities (or rather, time & patience... for now) 17:53:47 I just think lisp is cool, and idea of commonly ued stuff like wm in liss is cool. 17:54:06 Ah. So you don't plan to customize your WM with Lisp? 17:54:12 -!- shyam [n=shyam@117.204.91.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:54:13 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:54:17 gws, lisp applications tend to be half-finished. not just applications, libraries, too 17:54:20 as well as totally undocumented 17:54:28 weirdo: Why is that? 17:54:43 sanxiyn, mark tarver called it 'bipolar' 17:54:46 because perfection is the enemy of the hack 17:55:00 "around to it" syndrome 17:55:09 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:09 <[Jackal]> ADHD 17:55:10 http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm 17:55:12 Are Lispers perfectionists? 17:55:18 shyam [n=shyam@117.204.91.40] has joined #lisp 17:55:21 Or bipolar? 17:55:24 yes 17:55:27 -!- shyam [n=shyam@117.204.91.40] has left #lisp 17:55:29 (I don't consider myself Lisper) 17:55:32 they're not. they bicker about bikesheds and are distrated by shiny objects 17:55:41 s/they're/we're 17:55:42 Lispers are diverse 17:56:14 yeah, so diverse they can't agree on anythign 17:56:25 s/they/that we 17:56:32 weirdo: I have used some useful and polished Lisp applications, or rather applications with Lispy extension language 17:56:45 I mentioned Sawfish already, and I very much enjoyed Lilypond 17:57:12 instead of perfecting a single web framework, every one of us who did webapps wrote a separate framework 17:57:29 if lisp is so hackable, what's wrong with a single framework that can be extended in every possible direction? 17:57:49 weirdo: because we tend to have way too much power in the language, so it's sooo temtping to just roll your own than concentrate work on finishing a complete one 17:58:02 weirdo: Same happened on Python 17:58:04 another problem is that stuff is poorly documented 17:58:24 i'm not talking about just external symbols 17:58:27 I think it's mainly "it's easy to write web framework, easy enough rolling your own is (or feels) better than learning one" 17:58:27 because many lispers just say document by M-. 17:58:29 I find programming in lisp so enjoyable, so I begin to neglect my work in favor on writing random and useless stuff in lisp just to learn in properly 17:58:44 stuff is hackable, but the internal protocol isn't documented 17:58:52 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-151.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 17:58:55 I guess everyone like lisp a LOT too, so they program just to enjoy it :) lisp is like a drug %) 17:59:00 so people think something isn't possible and roll up their own from scratch 18:00:13 well if we agreed on something we could write some killer app like rails for ruby 18:00:42 closure could be a killer app, climacs could be a killer app, but it's all half-finished 18:00:49 weirdo: Agreement is not necessary? 18:01:00 Was not rails basicly written by one guy? 18:01:01 and lisp on lines is supposed to be the rails equivalent right? 18:01:04 (I mean, Python web world is very very fragmented, but that didn't prevent Django) 18:01:10 -!- Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-11-95.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:01:17 and if someone would less theorize about what "we" should do... 18:01:24 sanxiyn, well without providing feedback, bug reports, feature requests, there can hardly be any finished app 18:01:42 freiksenet: it was written by a team at a company, they just cleaned their own apps into a framework 18:01:43 weirdo: Still, I don't see why agreement is necessary. 18:01:59 You do need community, but you can grow one without "converting" others. 18:02:24 freiksenet: Merb was otoh created by a rather driven group with quite certain goals and backed by at least one company 18:02:32 well. so someone releases a half-finished app or library and asks for feedback 18:02:34 p_l: okay %) I meant that it was not written by a "community" initially 18:02:45 everyone then copies the idea into their own half-finished libraries 18:02:47 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1C0DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 18:02:52 besides, rails sucks 18:02:56 freiksenet: Yes, it was opened in complete form. 18:03:02 Like Django. 18:03:15 (Or Mozilla for that matter) 18:03:17 its mvc is just a way for different styles of HTML display 18:03:21 I heard a lot of rewriting happened since. 18:03:23 freiksenet: otoh, you have LoL which afaik is fully used only by drewc, but there's so far only few people working on it, mainly drewc, who writes what is needed for him 18:03:25 weirdo: I think Ruby kinda sucks, rails seems fine %) 18:03:57 freiksenet: I have reverse opinion: Ruby seems fine, Rails kinda sucks. 18:04:05 [30]> (sixth (list 999 (list 3 4 (* 4 5) 44 45 41 33 33 333))) 18:04:06 NIL 18:04:06 [31]> (sixth (cons 999 (list 3 4 (* 4 5) 44 45 41 33 33 333))) 18:04:06 45 18:04:14 sanxiyn: tastes differ %) 18:04:22 gws, meow? 18:04:28 use LIST* 18:04:31 so the list function will not make a list from an atom and a list? but the cons will add an atom to a list 18:04:33 sanxiyn: *new* Rails tend to suck less, also Rails 3 == Merb 2 ;-) 18:04:44 clhs list* 18:04:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_list_.htm 18:04:48 Adlai: he's yours, you take care of him. 18:04:52 the old rails had a ton of magic 18:05:02 thanks [goes back to graham ch2] 18:05:18 Hello #lisp, (stable-sort order #'> :key #'(lambda (j) (aref weights j))) compiled with (speed 3) and with weights declared as (simple-array single-float 1) in SBCL produces a note "doing float to pointer conversion (cost 13) to "... What can I do to not get any warnings? 18:06:12 postamar, (log max-positive-fixnum 2) 18:06:28 -!- cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:06:40 so why have list and not simply use list* at all times? 18:06:41 max-positive-fixnum ? 18:06:43 postamar, if it's 29, get a real computer. if it's 61, it's weird 18:06:49 gws, (list 1 2 3) 18:07:33 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:07:34 thats weird (1 2 . 3) 18:07:39 nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has joined #lisp 18:07:56 results from (list* 1 2 3) 18:08:13 piso, the point is if general-purpose-register can't fit a single-float *AND* tag bits, it has to be boxed 18:08:20 It's 29 and I have a real computer. SBCL compiled with :X86-64 and :SB-THREADS on Mac OS X seems to blow up for some reason 18:08:21 most-positive-fixnum 18:08:21 gws, did you read the clhs page? 18:08:23 gws: As it should? 18:08:35 gws: Try (list* 1 2 3 nil) 18:08:36 goes to read 18:09:22 -!- RenJuan [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:09:33 Why would it box single-floats in a 32 bit architecture anyway? 18:09:41 postamar, because of tag bits 18:09:56 you can inline your function 18:10:06 right, thanks 18:10:27 well he can't inline it if he passes it to STABLE-SORT unless he inlines STABLE-SORT as well 18:10:54 if there were no tag bits, LOG would return 31 or 32 18:11:58 -!- JeLuF [i=jf@217.160.223.215] has left #lisp 18:12:39 (stable-sort order (lambda (x y) (> (aref weights x) y))) 18:13:01 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2DA97.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:13:43 stassats`: what about y? 18:14:35 just a as quick reference - if I have a huge multidimensial arrays, what will take more memory, if I fill it with fixnums or with symbols? I have a feeling that symbols themselves should take less memory %) 18:14:36 i don't know what y is 18:15:06 stassats`: it is a variable in your code. 18:15:17 weirdo: ah, memories, haven't seen/heard the 'get a real computer' remark in long time ;) 18:15:19 right, but what it holds, i don't know 18:15:33 stassats`: are you trying to offer an equivalent of the :key version from postamar? 18:15:49 stassats`: if so, should you extract the value from the weights array for both arguments? 18:16:12 /win 13 18:16:26 Xach: oh right 18:16:44 but the point should be clear 18:17:09 freiksenet: you can have a specialized array for fixnums 18:17:48 -!- [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.82.233] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:18:18 array with symbols will just hold references for symbols and will take the same amount of memory, but symbols itself occupy some memory too 18:19:32 what is better perfomance wise - to have big array of symbols or big array of fixnums and value associated to fixnums from hashtable, for example 18:19:51 and to get value %) and I missed question mark, sorry 18:20:08 thanks for the help, #lisp 18:21:00 array of symbols seems much more natural to me of course, but I guess I need to consider my possibilities %) 18:21:22 that depends on what do you plan to do with it 18:22:29 extract subarrays from it quite often and then manipulate those 18:22:47 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:25:19 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-30.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:29:08 freiksenet, (upgraded-array-element-type 'symbol) 18:29:42 (upgraded-array-element-type 'fixnum) => T (maybe) 18:30:06 weirdo: returns 't 18:30:16 Xach: who cares about performance on Clisp? 18:30:37 freiksenet, so fixnums take as much space as an array elt as symbols 18:30:41 but how about... 18:30:54 (upgraded-array-element-type '(unsigned-byte 42)) 18:31:12 stassats`: ? 18:31:16 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.87.120] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:31:20 weirdo: (UNSIGNED-BYTE 60) 18:31:26 sanxiyn: ? 18:31:33 freiksenet, note that it's only space-efficiency 18:31:44 "who cares about performance on Clisp?"? 18:31:46 packed arrays are by definition less efficient 18:31:49 freiksenet: what is the biggest fixnum you plan to use? 18:32:03 sanxiyn: clisp returns T for 'fixnum 18:32:06 sanxiyn, misguided people do. if one uses clisp, one can kiss performance goodbye 18:32:30 piso: I plan to use symbols for now, but less that 500 probably. 18:32:33 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B157.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:55 weirdo: So you think people working on Ruby performance, Python performance, etc. is also misguided. 18:33:06 (Which I can't quite agree) 18:33:25 (upgraded-array-element-type '(integer 0 500)) 18:33:26 sanxiyn, yes 18:33:28 weirdo: what do you mean by "packed"? 18:33:46 freiksenet, multiple integers in one word 18:34:03 like, a word of 32 bits, integer taking 16 bits 18:34:04 Krystof [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has joined #lisp 18:34:23 piso: (UNSIGNED-BYTE 15) 18:34:29 so the compiler has to extract the actual value by LOGAND and ASH 18:34:44 then, add tag bits, and put it into a general-purpose register 18:34:55 freiksenet: so maybe you can use that type, if you can force all your fixnums to be be in the range from 0 to 500 18:35:29 freiksenet, and isn't it too early to care about performance? 18:35:34 perhaps the bottleneck will turn out to be in a different place? 18:35:42 is this memory-efficiency only? 18:35:46 or maybe it's fast enough, damn the bottlenecks? 18:36:02 weirdo: it is, I agree. But it is just a question of interest for now 18:36:31 what is faster - getting value of a symbol or getting value from hash-table with integer hash? 18:36:33 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 18:36:34 freiksenet: an array specialized on a subtype of fixnum will probably save space 18:36:50 are not symbols anyway are hash-tables? %) 18:36:53 freiksenet, depends on the hashing function 18:36:54 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 18:36:57 I mean stored in one %) 18:37:04 freiksenet: it might not be faster, but it shouldn't be slower 18:37:22 *weirdo* has no idea what SBCL EQL SXHASH does 18:37:45 package with symbols is a hash-table 18:38:03 okay, thanks everyone. I will probably first implement the whole thing and then see if I would need to optimize this particular part 18:38:27 except that using packages as hash tables for runtime-generated symbols is... misguided 18:38:43 otherwise Knut might come to my place and rape me for blasphemy %) 18:39:06 ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-176-13.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:39:17 (or was it Djiikstra?) 18:39:21 freiksenet, using a retractable baton? 18:39:25 dijkstra is dead 18:39:40 Joreji [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:39:54 weirdo: I know %) I just don't remember who said that premature optimization is root of all evils %) 18:40:08 dijkstra spoke against writing crappy programs and argumenting that proving their correctness wasn't 'important enough' 18:40:27 freiksenet, generalization is the root of all evil ; note the irony 18:40:37 no, the line is, "it's never to early to start premature optimization" 18:40:40 too early 18:41:08 but i don't agree that premature optimization is always evil 18:41:15 "# “We should forget about small efficiencies, say about 97% of the time: premature optimization is the root of all evil. Yet we should not pass up our opportunities in that critical 3%.A good programmer will not be lulled into complacency by such reasoning, he will be wise to look carefully at the critical code; but only after that code has been identified”[5] - Donald Knuth" this is the full quote %) 18:41:51 i managed to squeeze maybe 2-3% from my fastcgi library with premature optimization 18:41:53 so it does more requests per second 18:42:01 i'd rather use it than "elegant" code 18:42:51 Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-33-112.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:45:09 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:45:29 Xach: did you figure Neil T. Dantam e-mail? 18:46:59 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-104-121.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:47:09 stassats`: I made a guess, but have heard no reply and gotten no bounce. 18:47:38 Xach: it's ntd@ in the git repo log 18:48:15 stassats`: ah. thanks. 18:49:16 Btw, I just managed to make my 2d convolution run in 8.4s instead of 11s by using a let in the most inner loop 18:50:10 weirdo: optimizing prematurely (as in, writing clever code before you have a good, working version of it) can introduce really nasty bugs, and you won't know if it's because you tried to be too clever, or because you thought your algo through the wrong way. 18:50:11 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:50:28 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 18:50:55 that's the essence of the premature optimization thing, imo. It's not that optimization is bad, it's that you should be able to know where the problem really is. 18:51:45 sykopomp, when i went on optimizing fastcgi, my code was about 10 times slower than the C impl 18:51:59 so? 18:52:02 profiler couldn't give any sane results because most of the time was spent in syscalls 18:52:10 so i optimized frakking everything 18:52:18 every single function that was called in the critical path 18:52:26 but you had a working version first, didn't you? 18:52:36 well, yes 18:52:44 then why did you call it premature? 18:53:07 because people speaking against premature optimization talk about profilers, yadda yadda 18:53:23 profiles only work for pure-userland code 18:53:28 I think those are two different matters :) 18:53:42 -!- ska` [n=user@124.157.215.151] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:53:45 weirdo: OProfile =3 18:53:46 stupid, uninformed, diminishing-return optimization is not the same as premature. 18:53:46 and it's not like without profilers bottleneck happens where you least expect it 18:53:46 it's more like 18:54:04 actually, my experience is that bottlenecks -do- happen where I least expect it, a lot of itmes. 18:54:07 (Or any other "full-stack" sampling profilers) 18:54:21 unless your code has a bottleneck in userland, you have no way of knowing what it is 18:54:31 weirdo: OProfile 18:54:32 sanxiyn, does it work with lisp well enough? 18:54:39 Ah, don't know 18:54:42 Probably not. 18:54:45 exactly 18:54:46 happened to me several times: I'm speeding something up, and I swear this one function is eating up all my ramz, so I run sb-sprof and figure out I'm wasting my time. 18:55:00 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 18:55:02 sb-sprof is sexy 18:55:13 it's cool when real work is only done at compile time 18:55:42 i saw everything conses like hell but well, it only took a fraction of a second so i though, hell, why should i care 18:55:57 tagac [n=user@96.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:56:42 p0a [n=user@athedsl-371686.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 18:57:10 Hello how may I do this: (example in C) unsigned a, b; a = 13; b = 42; 18:57:12 (Have anyone integrated say DTrace with Lisp environment so you can profile from syscalls to Lisp functions?) 18:57:13 now compute a | b 18:57:21 saikat_ [n=saikat@67.180.10.4] has joined #lisp 18:57:27 I'm aware of BIT-OR, which works for bit vectors and not numbers. 18:57:34 p0a: Are you looking for LOGIOR? 18:57:41 sykopomp: Did you see jsnell/stassats' slime contrib? 18:57:48 nyef: right thanks. 18:57:55 tcr: slime-sprof? Yeah. I haven't tried it yet. 18:59:06 rpg [n=rpg@216.207.146.14] has joined #lisp 18:59:55 Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:22 -!- alvinator [n=alvinato@121.1.55.58] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:01:56 Is there any way by which I could convert a bit mask to a list of corresponding enumerations? 19:02:17 I have (cffi:defcenum ...). Then I have mask which is a single enum or (LOGIOR enum1 enum2 etc). 19:02:27 I want to decompose it back to (list enum) or (list enum1 enum2 ...) 19:03:23 It's... doable. There are a few obvious methods just off the top of my head, but there may be something more elegant already in cffi for all I know. 19:04:14 hum. Does anyone understand why (directory "**/*.asd") takes so much time in SBCL in a tree with 1200 subdirectories? 19:05:05 takes 3.5s in SBCL, .2s with find 19:05:11 ... I don't even know why it's a problem, as it's a sufficiently unlikely scenario that I wouldn't expect it to occur in practice. :-P 19:05:17 namor [n=namor@dslb-088-072-221-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:21 most of the time seems to be parsing native namestrings 19:05:29 with external formats 19:06:08 what about (directory "**/*.asd" :resolve-symlinks nil) ? 19:06:14 p0a: are your enums disjoint sets of bits? 19:06:58 stassats`, much faster indeed 19:08:11 Fare: not only. Some enums are ORed 19:08:12 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:47 p0a, then do you want the elementary enums, or all that match? 19:08:51 Fare: I managed to solve my problem in a different manner. I rewrote a macro into a function: (reduce #'logior list :key (lambda (x) (cffi:foreign-enum-value 'enum-name x))) 19:09:17 (loop :for enum :in enums :when (= enum (logand enum x)) :collect enum) 19:09:25 This _creates_ instead of decomposing, but somehow that was the solution to my problem :-) 19:10:32 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:10:37 stassats`, somehow this was still slow last time I tried... let's see if that was a fixed performance bug 19:10:49 luis: Hey are you here? 19:12:22 is it possible to map on multidimensional array and return results as multidimensional array? 19:12:34 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:40 -!- sanxiyn [n=tinuviel@110.76.72.94] has left #lisp 19:13:06 freiksenet: it is possible, yes 19:13:53 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-hhczuotdiuglsflh] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:13:53 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 19:14:14 stassats': how? hyperspec claims that map can only be applied to sequences 19:14:40 well, write your own function for doing this 19:15:01 freiksenet: You can make a displaced array into your multi-dimensional array which functions as sequence 19:15:33 freiksenet: Perhaps you may want to look for a matrix library which should come with all such goodies 19:15:43 stassats': %) "is it possible" meant - is there a built in function %) I know I can write own functions, thanks ;) 19:16:00 tcr: thanks, I'll try 19:16:18 rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:16:21 well, you should've started with "is there a built-in" then 19:18:00 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:18:13 (def-irc-compiler-macro is-it-possible is-it-turing) 19:18:37 Wow. Just, wow. http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/nscpdorm.html 19:18:41 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-246.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:18:59 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-30.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:19:14 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:19:53 and to really stretch it onto topic: the animated GIF at the bottom was optimized a bit by a skippy program. 19:20:18 Xach, what kind of optimizations? 19:20:32 Fare: out of curiousity, do you have a profile for DIRECTORY lameness? 19:20:49 Fare: his original one used some 0-delay frames that worked ok in glitchy old netscapes but don't display right in modern browsers. 19:21:00 Fare: i changed it so 0-delay frames were merged together 19:21:09 at the correct offsets, etc 19:21:10 Xach: so did you send him a fixed version and he put it up. 19:21:36 gigamonkey: yes. his response: http://dropoff.org/q6x5/jwz 19:22:13 hey froydnj! Nice work you're doing there on planet.sbcl. In the commentary to 1.0.31.25 you wrote that you looked at the style-warnings signalled during the build; how did you do that? 19:22:42 froydnj, I was in the middle of modifying my program to do plenty of stuff, now it doesn't compile at all... when it does, I'll try again... 19:23:06 One of my earliest tasks at Organic Online was some hacking on a script that generated animations by basically sending a series of GIFs that somehow each replaced the last one. Just when I finished working on it someone discovered that Nescape supported animated GIFs. 19:23:43 I don't see any animation. Maybe my iceweasel has disabled them. 19:23:51 tcr: scrolled backwards in my terminal =p you can also ./make.sh 2>err 1>log 19:24:07 Fare: it appears if you mouse over. 19:24:08 Fare: hover over the image 19:24:19 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.168.65] has joined #lisp 19:24:29 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:24:32 tcr: I only happened to notice the style-warnings because I kept botching octets.lisp changes doing the external-format overhaul 19:24:38 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-zfasuqhevqbmrlvi] has quit [Client Quit] 19:24:44 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:52 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-ilxapddgsuhlaity] has joined #lisp 19:25:27 I had to enable scripts with NoScript 19:25:38 froydnj: I always thought about catching all the notes signalled during the build, and writing them to a file along their source-locations, then write some slime-fu to read that file and annotate the source files accordingly 19:25:50 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-371686.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["leaving"] 19:26:37 tcr: that would be excellent. bonus points for separating out probably-worthless ones 19:26:38 it only animates for me while I mouseover 19:27:00 froydnj: Perhaps for the birthday! Will you come? 19:27:26 tcr: flying over the pond is unlikely, though I was considering it 19:28:07 Come and I promise to deliver the hack. 19:28:31 what a deal! :) 19:29:11 younder [n=jpthing@113.14.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:29:25 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-176-13.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:29:26 what does sbcl mean with "avoid runtime dispatch on array element type" because: | Upgraded element type of array is not known at compile time. 19:29:51 ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-176-13.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:31:04 sepi: you're doing something like (find element array), but the type of ARRAY isn't any more specific than "this is a vector" 19:31:23 if sbcl knew that it was e.g. a (simple-array (unsigned-byte 4) (*)), then it could produce more efficient code 19:31:23 sugarshark [n=ole@p4FDA92CB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:31:59 Krystof: an aref. ok, I try to specify the type of the array elements then 19:32:08 thanks 19:33:17 Fare: also, 1.0.32 and beyond should be somewhat more efficient about finding the external-format to convert to, so that could shave ~20% off your times 19:34:14 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:35:09 Krystof: would I (declaim (ftype ... to make sbcl know the correct type? 19:36:49 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:49 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:36:52 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 19:36:55 sellout [n=greg@65.112.11.121] has joined #lisp 19:37:50 Is there a canonical place for clhs-lookup.lisp? 19:38:11 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:38:30 I'd use http://paste.lisp.org/system-server/show/lisppaste/clhs-lookup if none interjects 19:39:50 tcr: common-lisp.net/users/tcr/git/clhs-lookup.git/ 19:41:58 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:17 the LOOP of DOOM lives on! 19:42:25 *Xach* still has a patch for that :( 19:42:34 what loop of doom? 19:42:54 Fare: the ";; Yuk. I know. Fixes welcome." bit 19:44:14 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:45:20 wow compiling that file takes a damn long time 19:45:27 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:46:05 Xach: I fixed that in all my own copies years ago :) 19:46:11 good to know that it still survives 19:46:14 phew 19:46:24 22secs 19:47:30 Xach: it's not one loop, but several nested ones 19:47:35 Krystof: oh, wow, 6 levels 19:47:37 that isn't a very compelling anti-loop example (-: 19:47:52 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 19:48:31 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-246.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:49:01 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-246.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:50:44 sepi: I was younger when I wrote that 19:50:48 and also in a hurry 19:51:15 Does anyone have a recommendation about a CL JSON interface? Any reason to prefer YASON over CL-JSON or vice versa? Or ST-JSON? 19:51:19 antifuchs: LOOPS of DOOM, then? 19:51:27 Does anyone know if postmodern / cl-postgres supports a cursoring interface. I thought I had worked one up based around the row-reader argument, but unfortunately it throws a protocol error when cl-postgres:exec-query function returns before I am done reading all of the data 19:52:35 rpg: we have used cl-json in production code, but none of the others. My impression was that cl-json mostly works as expected 19:53:29 bobbysmith - production@where ? 19:53:49 bobbysmith007: Thanks. 19:53:54 Dawgmatix: http://gainesville-green.com 19:54:02 rpg: wow, I just recompiled PowerLoom for th 5th time and this time it worked :S 19:54:11 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:54:21 BTW, is there some source other than the CLIKI that I should be using to look up libraries? 19:54:44 rpg: that and google is what I tend to use :/ 19:54:46 felideon: This suggests that there may be bad dependencies in PowerLoom... 19:55:07 *lukego* the weak consumer starts unwrapping his shiny new iphone.. 19:55:12 rpg: I think that covers most. 19:55:45 lukego, you move from country to country -- what provider do you use? 19:55:48 rpg: I use clbuild which keeps it's own list. 19:55:58 what, me move? I'm practically Swiss these days! 19:56:30 and now I'm contractually obliged to be practically swiss for at least the next two years. :-) 19:56:33 i have a somewhat stupid question... i have a defgeneric and a corresponding defmethod. I want to change one of the parameters to &optional, but I cannot change neither cuz they complain about the other one having different param list, how do i work around that? 19:57:17 rullie: change the text, restart lisp image 19:57:18 ;) 19:57:23 If anyone of you is bored and wants to comment on other's code, there you go. I want to learn. http://paste.lisp.org/display/87910 19:57:25 rullie: undefine the function (in slime C-c C-u) 19:57:27 fmakunbound 19:58:04 bobbysmith007, piso that did the trick, thanks :) 19:58:08 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:58:11 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:58:17 sykopomp: lol.. yeah, woudln't want that everytime :p 19:58:31 froydnj: http://rvw.doc.gold.ac.uk/sullivan/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=sbcl.git;a=summary 19:58:32 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:54 sepi: You might have more luck posting it on the comp.lang.lisp newsgroup. 19:59:08 *Fare* has headaches writing graph walks over XCVB dependencies 19:59:49 git repository itself at http://rvw.doc.gold.ac.uk/sullivan/git/sbcl.git (server-info should be sufficiently updated) 19:59:56 younder: I was not expecting any results. That's why I asked for bored people :) 20:00:09 sepi: IRC is fast moving and better suited for immediate questions 20:00:20 younder: that's right 20:00:25 Krystof: excellent, thanks. 20:02:05 saikat__ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:18 *tcr* curses the recursiveness of :force t 20:03:38 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229111156.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 20:03:39 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@67.180.10.4] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:04:31 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-246.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:05:42 So no hits on postmodern / cl-postgres cursors... well damn, the docs are unenlightening on this point as well 20:05:55 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-176-13.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:06:18 sepult [n=levgue@87.78.173.246] has joined #lisp 20:07:21 bobbysmith007: The docs's are pretty clear about postmodern cursors 20:07:31 Anyone using atdoc to create nice docs? I'm wondering how to nicely document getters and setters... I'd assume I need to define my own defgeneric methods, and that works for the getter, but the setter doesn't get picked up by atdoc... 20:07:41 younder: sorry for being dense then, I will look again 20:09:11 thijso: You should probably write a memo for lichtblau. 20:09:18 sepi: dotimes instead of do, why do you (truncate result-pixel), why do you clear result-pixel at the end? Also, FFT? 20:09:55 younder: do they use another term? I have grepped for 'cursor' in the docs on disk as well as googling the online docs for cursor with no hits at either location 20:10:09 right... if I can remember how to record one.. ;) 20:10:54 what is the proper way to check if an &optional param is given (check for unbound?) 20:10:55 hmm... now that you mention it... I emailed him with a couple of comment a while back and didn't get a response, so maybe I _should_ poke him in here... ;) 20:10:57 thijso: minion: memo for lichteblau: foo bar 20:11:05 right. thanks 20:11:08 bobbysmith007: In lisp you can return a list.. 20:11:14 rullie: Read the PCL chapter about functions 20:12:09 bobbysmith007: Eliminating the need for cursors. It does however say how to return multiple results. 20:12:15 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-8.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:12:19 younder: which is fine normally, but I have a couple gig export that is infeasible to hold all of in memory at once, which is why I am searching for a way to read a row at a time from the database and output that over a socket before reading the next row 20:12:52 younder: thus cursor... which seems just unsupported :( 20:12:53 minion: memo for lichtblau: is there a way to nicely document getters and setters with atdoc? Getters I can manage, but I can't get the setter to show up... (and a side point: did you receive my emails about atdoc from a couple of weeks ago? Or did they get lost in your spam filter?) 20:12:54 Remembered. I'll tell lichtblau when he/she/it next speaks. 20:13:00 bobbysmith007: That has to be handles at the postgresql end 20:13:30 bobbysmith007: handled 20:13:46 younder: well clsql allows this, but doesnt support parameterized queries, so I was hoping to convert to using postmodern 20:13:51 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:10 pkhuong: clearing result-pixel is old code. I used to have a let at a higher level. The result-pixel is truncated because png wants integers afaik. Do you mean dotimes instead of loop? 20:14:24 bobbysmith007: Do you have some source we can look at. 20:14:34 younder: meaning it is possible to support this from any postgres frontend, but it is currently unsupported(?) for postmodern. 20:14:36 pkhuong: I just wanted to write a convolution for once 20:14:42 Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has joined #lisp 20:14:45 bobbysmith007: It seems to me you are doing the wrong thing. 20:15:07 younder: always possible, I will paste the working clsql export code if you think that will help 20:15:19 sepi: you're adding integers... You might want to declare declare the type of result-pixel as the right type (integer? fixnum?) too. 20:15:47 pkhuong: Btw, I'd now like to implement the convolution for separable matrixes. would you just factor out the two inner loops into a function. Because that's essentially what changes 20:16:28 bobbysmith007: cl-postgres has ROW-READERs, which call a function to get the next row. 20:16:31 tcr: could you look at the pm for a sec, thanks 20:16:36 younder: http://paste.lisp.org/display/87913 20:16:40 pkhuong: the convolution kernel is float. will sbcl automatically truncate if I define the result as integer? 20:17:06 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:17:28 froydnj: the development isn't finished, but I hope you'll be able to see what I'm trying to do, slowly 20:17:34 bobbysmith007: doquery might be based on ROW-READERs too, hard to tell without the source. 20:18:05 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:19 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:18:28 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 20:18:39 froydnj: and if you can successfully rebase against HEAD I'd happily move on from there 20:18:58 pkhuong: I tried to implement a row reader that returned the cursor part of it, but outside the context of the exec-query this causes protocol exceptions. I was trying to implement cl-postgres as a backend to clsql, which has kind of a funky interface. (The idea was to keep all my code working during the transition in order to allow that to be smoother, but it seems like switching to postmodern all at once or not at all is going to be the answer) 20:19:14 sepi: ah, never mind then. You'll want to declare the types of the arguments, and declare the float types as either SINGLE-FLOAT or DOUBLE-FLOAT. You'll then want to declare the type of RESULT-PIXEL accordingly, and initialise with a 0 of that type. And you do need truncate then. 20:19:27 Is anyone reasonably familiar with signal/interrupt handling in the SBCL runtime? 20:19:35 bobbysmith007: why would you do that? Do your processing inside the row reader. 20:19:38 nyef: mega 20:19:58 Yeah, figured mega would be, given the git logs. 20:20:47 pkhuong: ok, thanks a lot for you help! 20:20:51 pkhuong: http://paste.lisp.org/display/87914 so that I could fill out the clsql interface for cursors 20:21:10 I'm thinking that interrupt.c needs to be split into reasonably-generic and posixoid-environment parts. 20:21:31 -!- nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:21:54 seems sorta futile though, I will probably just skip this part of the clsql backend and reimplement the cursoring parts in just postmodern (without clsql stuff getting in the way) 20:21:55 -!- sellout [n=greg@65.112.11.121] has quit [] 20:23:00 nyef: seems reasonable enough. but why? 20:23:02 bobbysmith007: the inversion of control needed for that interface will be hard to implement... if you have to use cl-postgres's primitives, I think you'll have to use threads. 20:23:54 Because of all of the Win32 conditionalization. 20:23:56 pkhuong: wow, replacing loop with dotimes saved me 2.5s from 6s 20:24:37 which implementation is that 20:24:50 Krystof: ok, I'll probably get to it within the next week or so 20:25:20 pkhuong , younder: thanks for the input, I wanted to run it by others to make sure I wasnt missing anything obvious, before tossing away this piece of code 20:25:42 I'm up to about 5/8 of interrupt.c not looking very necessary on win32, though the result doesn't build yet. 20:26:08 drewc: trac is still using >90% of the cpu 20:28:44 fastcgi, cgi or tracd? 20:28:44 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:29:29 Krystof [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has joined #lisp 20:29:35 if you're not using mod_python to run trac, you probably should be. 20:30:28 Argh! error within --disable-debugger error handling 20:30:28 :( 20:30:38 Is there a format directive for "only inclue this if unparsed arguments remain"? 20:32:54 Ralith: I believe so. 20:33:01 great. 20:33:03 any idea what it is? 20:33:06 There's a format directive for almost everything else, after all... 20:33:29 what I have right now is: 20:33:40 "~@[~a year~:p, ~]~@[~a month~:p, ~]~@[~a week~:p, ~]~@[~a day~:p, ~]~@[~a hour~:p, ~]~@[~a minute~:p, ~]~@[~a second~:p~]" 20:33:57 except of course I only want the ", " bits to be there if there's something afterwards. 20:34:02 or, wait, that won't work 20:34:05 nil counts as an argument >:/ 20:34:26 basically my issue is I have a bunch of vars for all those values, and I only want to print the nonzero ones. 20:35:05 You are more heavily into FORMAT than I'm prepared to think through at this point, I'm afraid. 20:35:06 Ralith: I'm hard-pressed to believe any format solution to this would be clearer than the straightforward code. 20:35:40 pkhuong: Where's your sense of adventure? 20:36:18 Isn't FORMAT Turing complete? ;-) 20:36:19 pkhuong: aw. 20:36:19 tmh: I must have it lost behind the mount of scholarship forms on my desk. 20:36:56 pkhuong: Those should definitely be in the foreground. 20:40:08 what is the reader syntax for a fixnum 0? 20:40:18 sepi: 0 20:40:57 nyef: hmm, (type-of 0) tells me BIT 20:40:59 (All non-floaty zeros are fixnums.) 20:41:07 Yes, but BIT is a subtype of FIXNUM. 20:41:13 namor_ [n=namor@dslb-088-072-241-070.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:48 nyef: ohh, ok. I'm a bit confused about fixnums and integers and stuff 20:42:09 What implementation are you using? 20:42:41 -!- tagac [n=user@96.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has left #lisp 20:43:21 Hi, I have not used MOP yet. Could I define classes to be as tagged lists? 20:43:49 -!- Addled [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has left #lisp 20:44:01 I want to specialize methods for (symbol ...) lists 20:45:05 davazp: I'm not a MOP (or even CLOS) expert, but I somehow doubt that that's possible... Unless maybe a custom specializer type is involved? 20:47:09 I have types defined for each form actually, but defmethod specialize on classes, not type specifiers. I think. 20:47:12 emmy [n=em@cpe-98-14-154-71.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:47:37 Right. 20:47:37 davazp: That's correct, methods special in classes. 20:47:48 wow wamu website is fail 20:47:55 wait 10min on phone 20:48:16 You might do better with a wrapper to pass the first element of the list as an argument and have the inner function specialize on that. 20:48:18 -!- namor [n=namor@dslb-088-072-221-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:48:20 is lisp prety easy to use with ssl ssh 20:48:23 etc. 20:48:35 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:39 davazp: there's been various people doing work on having CLOS methods dispatch on arbitrary predicates. 20:49:39 so much software and most website suck so hard 20:49:49 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:49:52 eml.cc is only email i can use now 20:50:01 for now, I think think the answer to your question is basically "No", but with some more research, it might turn into "42" 20:50:01 and its heavilty throttled 20:50:06 killerstorm2 [n=alex_miz@sputnik.donapex.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:16 research, of course, involves a small planetary computing fee. 20:50:35 rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 20:51:06 sykopomp: it's called crowdsourcing these days 20:51:19 sykopomp: Have you seen 'Predicate Dispatching in the Common Lisp Object System' - AITR-2001-006 ? 20:51:40 tmh: I may have read it, it's been a while since I looked around at predicate dispatch stuff. 20:52:29 sykopomp: I've not read through it in detail, but it uses WEYL as the example application and I'm working through the WEYL source code at the moment. Plan on looking at it down the road. 20:53:57 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:54:12 hm, right, I could use apply on the list and define the methods as: 20:54:23 (defmethod op ((x (eql 'tag)) ...) ...) 20:54:24 20:54:47 though I don't know if this will be good 20:54:52 oo is the roman numerals of computing 20:54:56 -rob pike 20:55:22 OO is too big a concept to reduce to just that. 20:56:09 too many different definitions. Java-style OO is very different from CLOS' implementation. 20:56:10 http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/OO_programming/ 20:56:41 davazp: I wouldn't apply the list unless necessary, as spreading it costs time and memory access. 20:57:06 gws: it's all about harmonic balance :) 20:57:11 function soup is no better. 20:57:26 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 20:58:08 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 20:58:23 nyef: so I do dispatch on them by hand, though I don't take advantage from clos 20:58:43 Gah, I had some little piece of throw-away elisp code that really wasn't disposable and now I can't find it. 20:59:09 davazp: you can also dispatch on the list type, and use COND+EVERY to hack it up. 20:59:12 ok, thanks you nyef and sykopomp. I should learn about mop anyway. :) 20:59:13 davazp: I didn't say that. I said pass the -first- element as an argument. 20:59:26 davazp: read AMOP :) 20:59:57 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.207.146.14] has quit ["Leaving..."] 20:59:59 The first element is the one you want to dispatch on for named list structures anyway, saves you the cost of spreading the list unnessecarily, and allows you to dispatch with a specializer. 21:01:12 -!- saikat__ is now known as saikat_ 21:01:56 ol3 [n=user@82.113.121.154] has joined #lisp 21:02:08 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 21:02:09 nyef: oh, I see. But I would like to specialize on others arguments in some cases. 21:02:35 -!- levy_ [n=levy@89.223.250.233] has quit ["..."] 21:02:52 function soup! 21:03:06 -!- postamar [n=postamar@206-248-165-246.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [] 21:03:42 I must leave, bye 21:03:45 davazp: Mmm... At that point I'd definately question your choice of representation. 21:03:49 Have fun, then. 21:04:53 Hi. I'm trying to use cl-containers, and it seems that this library is not ..um.. finished. (In other words, it is half-assed, barely usable library.) But that might be a lack of documentation... Does anybody has experience which says otherwise? 21:05:02 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 21:05:07 nyef: it is for dealing with scheme code 21:06:00 I though specialize methods on special forms, and for example, `define' can take two forms according to the second element of the list. 21:06:14 killerstorm2: that library has some gems in it that are hard to find and hard to use, but come in handy when you dont want to write a new redblack tree 21:07:02 it is easy, I wanted to know if MOP could do the work for me. :) 21:07:05 see you 21:07:43 killerstorm2: typical bazaar open source. Most of it was contributed by various authors over quite a while, without much overarching design driving it. 21:07:56 though ymmv 21:08:33 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 21:08:35 second call to chase 21:08:37 wow 21:08:41 sucky customer experiece 21:08:46 Im getting my money outa there 21:09:06 so hard to remain calm 21:11:48 15minutes to get new password in email. 21:11:49 wow 21:11:55 so much for internet time 21:12:06 Demosthenes [n=demo@64.208.221.2] has joined #lisp 21:12:08 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 21:12:09 so much offtopic spam. 21:12:27 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:12:33 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-geoprqspwpirxedw] has joined #lisp 21:12:54 bobbysmith007: Well, I'm only interested in simple binary trees, I thought at least *that* should work, but I can't find API for basic stuff, like to iterate container from end. Well, it has `predecessor` function, but there is no way to get container's end through official API. That is mind boggling... I think I'd better give some other library a try... 21:13:12 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit [Client Quit] 21:13:30 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 21:13:35 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@193.247.250.13] has joined #lisp 21:13:58 aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@unaffiliated/aliceinwire] has joined #lisp 21:16:01 minion: trees 21:16:02 trees: TREES is a Library which provides binary trees of several flavors, all exposed through a uniform CLOS interface. http://www.cliki.net/trees 21:16:18 killerstorm2: that is good stuff ^^^^ 21:16:34 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:16:34 thanks cmm- that does look good :) 21:17:06 good night 21:17:20 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06d97e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["nightfall in middle europe"] 21:17:54 ... Is there a binary tree library called "forest" anywhere, or am I going to have to add it to my future projects list? 21:18:02 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:19:23 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:19:29 what's the point, nobody'll see it anyway 21:20:19 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:26 ... If a project is called "forest" and nobody sees it, does it really exist? 21:24:06 nyef: if google can find it, yes, else no. 21:24:24 for the villagers not, for the foresters yes 21:28:58 -!- aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@unaffiliated/aliceinwire] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:30:32 gah. Now XCVB dumps a valid Makefile & ASDF system for POIU to use, but POIU complains :( 21:30:57 I made my convolution function 5 times faster. yay! 21:31:27 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@84-72-45-92.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:31:28 -!- lukego_ is now known as lukego 21:31:56 There is no applicable method for the generic function # when called with arguments (# NIL). 21:32:36 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-104-121.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:33:16 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:34:31 yet poiu works on exscribe. So there's some interesting asdf/poiu weirdness happening 21:35:21 That naming scheme gets boring. Almost as bad as drewc's naming habit 21:35:22 TREES lack iterator interface, in exported interface, at least. No way to go from a node to node... 21:35:47 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:36:22 Fare: weird. are there any empty component specs or something? 21:36:23 killerstorm2: prod froydnj about that; he was here some time ago 21:36:28 you can see that the COMPONENT arg is empty 21:36:41 rather, NIL 21:37:03 -!- killerstorm2 [n=alex_miz@sputnik.donapex.net] has left #lisp 21:37:22 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32EF4E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:39 backtrace may be interesting, too 21:38:24 tcr: I can happily claim to have been the second person to name an asdf thing in this way (-: 21:38:30 fare may be taking it too far (: 21:39:28 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:39:29 Geralt1 [n=Geralt@p5B32D4D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:47 -!- Geralt1 is now known as Geralt 21:41:26 drunk asdf: fgjh 21:41:44 antifuchs, do you understand what this error message means? 21:43:06 oh. Apparently, I've inherited some recursion limitations from the asdf backend 21:43:34 but instead of telling me "there is no component named "/asdf/asdf" " it just tries with NIL and fails... 21:43:39 Fare: it's asdf:operation-done-p (operation component); something is making asdf call that method with a NIL component 21:43:45 ah 21:43:47 makes sense 21:44:01 asdf could do with better error resolution schemes (: 21:44:45 hum. And I was complaining about XCVB no having good error resolution... but at least it tries to crash early with a semi-good error message rather than pass bad values around. 21:44:49 thanks 21:44:57 dcrawford: dvorak asdf: aoeu 21:45:26 that's the french asdf :P 21:45:45 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:45:54 or rather aoux is the french dvorak asdf 21:46:07 phonetically 21:46:53 who ever chose such ridiculous keys to move the cursor in vi -- scattered all over the keyboard between hands... 21:48:10 -!- gws [n=g@w005.z209031033.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:48:29 emacs-dwim: Heh, Emacs is just as bad in Dvorak :p 21:48:59 -!- sepult [n=levgue@87.78.173.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:49:23 emacs is quite nice w/ dvorak 21:49:25 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.83] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:49:27 and dvorak is pretty great for lisp :) 21:49:32 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:00 Makoryu: not when it's all remapped with 5 modifier keys up each side and the punctuation moved out of the way and a numeric keypad under the right hand with ISO_Level3_Shift. (but clx ignores xmodmap) 21:50:10 /emacs-dwim weeps 21:50:34 emacs-dwim: what. 21:50:53 sykopomp: quite nice? 21:51:44 guaqua: () where W and E are on qwerty, - within quick, easy reach 21:51:56 Makoryu: when either hand can press a-s-H-C-M-S and ISO_Level_3 gets special characters emacs is more fun. 21:52:00 (the () needs two lines of xmodmap, but it's a worthwhile swap) 21:52:11 Guest28373 [n=levgue@87.78.173.246] has joined #lisp 21:52:12 sykopomp: that's just the tip of the iceberg 21:52:22 and ' on the Q 21:52:33 (i have them mapped there, by coincidence, too) :) 21:52:38 - on the home row 21:52:42 -!- Guest28373 [n=levgue@87.78.173.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:52:46 ah yes, of course 21:52:53 sykopomp: Ahhhh 21:52:56 it's just generally quite comfortable for lisp coding. 21:53:12 although, to be fair, it's not that bad a mapping if you swap <> and () on qwerty. 21:53:16 for lisp and programming, maybe. for emacs - not as much 21:53:28 sykopomp: <> still needs shift 21:53:34 *Ralith* has been considering mapping () onto [] 21:53:38 you end up remapping almost everything when using dvorak 21:53:55 guaqua: well, yeah; the defaults are intended for qwerty. 21:54:00 what did you expect? 21:54:11 Ralith: do you have a custom lisp dvorak? 21:54:16 launchpad has become terribly slow... 21:54:20 madnificent: no 21:54:27 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-246.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:54:33 I stick with my qwerty cuz I type crazyfast on it and can use other people's systems :P 21:54:35 Ralith: http://factory.homelinux.org/posts/2 21:54:41 Ralith: weakling 21:54:43 Ralith: ;) 21:55:03 (yes, I was too slow to press the return key) 21:55:31 guaqua: I barely remapped anything. I learned emacs on dvorak, and it's quite comfortable. 21:56:04 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-246.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:56:20 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-246.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:56:45 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-246.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:56:49 *madnificent* too... I was thinking of using that layout, as the braces are a bit of a pain to type 21:56:50 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-geoprqspwpirxedw] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:56:51 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 21:57:01 madnificent: I like being able to pick up a game and not have to rebind every single thing before running it :P 21:57:08 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-246.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:57:13 *madnificent* doesn't play games 21:57:32 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:57:50 Ralith: how about binding a key to swapping keyboard layouts? 21:57:54 rread [n=rread@98.234.219.222] has joined #lisp 21:57:55 also, my first alternative was azerty, which is a pita for games too... then I started using qwerty, but stopped gaming on the pc, now I'm using dvorak 21:57:58 emacs-dwim: then I have to know *both* layouts. 21:58:00 and that's just silly 21:58:08 Shit. I have a struct that represents a four-way linked list: (defstruct node left right up down). Now if I do (defvar node (make-node)) and then make it point to itself with (setf (node-left) node), sbcl gets busy eating my memory. I swear this worked just fine about two hours ago and I can't figure out what's going wrong. Anyone have an idea? 21:58:08 Ralith: 'no' it is not silly 21:58:33 I'm fast as shit on qwerty and that's all I really care about 21:58:34 koning_robot: *print-circle* 21:58:44 koning_robot: Or *print-depth*. 21:58:49 sykopomp: that's another case 21:58:52 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-246.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:58:57 Ralith: I cared about RSI 21:59:03 sykopomp: i have the most common ones remapped (C-x C-s etc) 21:59:24 koning_robot: otherwise you could try to paste the respective code 21:59:46 nyef: ah! that makes sense.. if i had a nickel... 22:00:10 ... you'd have been able to buy a soda about 70 years ago? 22:00:43 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-246.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:00:50 unlikely 22:01:45 Yeah, well, I'm also greatly unsure as to the timeline of inflation, so I could be badly off on when exactly the 5-cent soda era was. 22:02:51 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:03:29 it started when people were forced to accept paper currency 22:03:31 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:03:31 slightly offtopic due to desperation: Would any of you have experience setting up postfix on a server with sasl/tls? If so, could you PM me? 22:04:45 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-93-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:06:17 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:07:19 hum. Now it works when I load with ASDF, but with POIU, I get some horror because xcvb depends on asdf that overwrites poiu's defclass'es that modify the original asdf defclass... 22:07:32 but it ought to work if I exclude asdf from dependencies. 22:07:38 (when compiling with asdf) 22:09:56 looks like it works! 22:09:59 Whoa. 22:10:13 XCVB -- now can compile itself with POIU! 22:10:48 -!- male_terran [n=terran@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 22:10:52 -!- sugarshark [n=ole@p4FDA92CB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:13:32 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 22:14:49 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:15:19 POIU? 22:15:44 slash_ pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87925 22:16:12 Why keeps this looping forever? 22:16:42 -!- proq` [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:16:57 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 22:17:36 froydnj, POIU is in QITAB: http://common-lisp.net/projects/qitab/ 22:18:08 its status is "works for me" -- though any error handling is minimal as you could see from this conversation... 22:18:09 slash_: is `a' circular? 22:18:32 slash_: FOO will always get at least one parameter in the recursive call 22:18:33 drafael [n=tapio@118.90.136.43] has joined #lisp 22:18:34 KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-15-252.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:34 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.219.4] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:18:36 Fare: neat 22:18:54 I do (foo 1 2 3) e.g. 22:19:35 slash_: it will loop on (foo nil) 22:19:48 what for is value-list? 22:20:14 To avoid nested lists 22:20:25 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:20:27 huh 22:20:31 Otherwise the lists would accumulate. 22:20:32 slash_: perhaps you wanted to use (apply #'foo ...)? 22:20:49 (1 2 3) ((1 2 3)) ... 22:20:52 value-list would work in that case like CAR 22:21:02 :( 22:21:12 and yes, listen to michaelw 22:21:22 slashd_: because without a m-v-b, 0 values turns into nil 22:22:13 the other option is multiple-values-call 22:22:53 so, it'd be (defun foo (&rest list) (when list (print (car list)) (apply #'foo (cdr list)))) 22:24:16 seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:58 stassats: I looked into the issue why fuzzy-completing sb::car contains so many duplicates 22:25:35 and why? 22:26:28 Hmm I'll try apply. 22:26:29 *antifuchs* reads old poiu XXX:s and gets nostalgic 22:26:43 Fare: btw, I think the date in the header is wrong. I'm pretty sure I wrote this in 2007 22:27:23 -!- icecube_ [n=icecube@p549C4D90.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:27:56 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-151.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 22:28:05 also, nice catch with the prefork GC trigger! 22:28:28 ok 22:28:49 antifuchs, thanks 22:29:13 hi Fare 22:29:20 stassats: It tries to only list a symbol's home-package, but in sb::car the home-package (cl) is not among the found package matchings 22:29:37 stassats: and in that case, it actually kind of does the right thing 22:30:15 stassats: I thought about filtering away symbols from the cl package as they're so commonly shared among packages, but I'm not sure I like that either. 22:30:18 good night! 22:30:23 gn8 22:30:24 good night! 22:30:58 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 22:30:59 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177075091.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:32:10 stassats: Ideally there was different read-syntax for the cases where you refer to truly-internal symbols (i.e. not inherited symbols), but there isn't 22:32:57 and, buh, swank-fuzzy needs a rewrite :) 22:33:05 yeah, we can easily blame CL 22:33:13 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@host162.200-82-15.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:33:31 tcr: what doesn't? 22:35:02 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 22:37:00 antgreen` [n=user@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM0018c0b3c272.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:37:22 hah 22:37:59 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:38:20 Netscape 3.0! ;) 22:38:37 thorin [n=quassel@78.169.15.162] has joined #lisp 22:38:55 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:39:06 icecube [n=icecube@208.75.88.34] has joined #lisp 22:39:11 -!- icecube [n=icecube@208.75.88.34] has quit [K-lined] 22:39:32 -!- antgreen 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[n=lukegorr@193.247.250.13] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:55:08 -!- lukego_ is now known as lukego 22:57:34 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:57:38 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Absquatulandus sum"] 23:00:23 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:01:17 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.196.252] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:01:43 jlf` [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 23:02:11 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:02:59 hi #lisp -- running clbuild list ajax results in the error: paste: /tmp/clbuild.CyEBOI0SiF/left: No such file or directory 23:03:16 hello madnificent nice tutorial thanks 23:03:24 tutorials 23:03:28 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-15-87.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 23:03:33 this is on a fresh install of clbuild and after installing just a few libs 23:04:03 hello to all worlds 23:07:29 exe [n=exe@unaffiliated/exe] has joined #lisp 23:07:50 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:07:58 -!- joswig [n=joswig@f054053131.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 23:10:52 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:12:27 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:15:19 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:38 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:15:49 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@84-72-45-92.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:18:33 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.70.177] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:23:18 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@64.208.221.2] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 23:25:22 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 23:26:01 Monk1 [n=a@cpe-74-74-140-173.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:27:01 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 23:28:05 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 23:32:51 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441929.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:34:16 quotemstr [n=quotemst@67.246.181.235] has joined #lisp 23:38:23 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@gprs13.swisscom-mobile.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:38:24 -!- lukego_ is now known as lukego 23:39:31 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:42:45 andelf [n=andelf@119.118.229.47] has joined #lisp 23:45:37 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 23:46:17 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:49:33 Addled [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has joined #lisp 23:51:48 pepone [n=pepone@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 23:52:19 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 23:52:56 Hi, can some body explain the meaning of "#+" and "#-" 23:53:04 -!- rread [n=rread@98.234.219.222] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:53:05 clhs #+ 23:53:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 23:53:09 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-xeauebqkeklieswd] has joined #lisp 23:53:23 -!- exe [n=exe@unaffiliated/exe] has left #lisp 23:54:01 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:39 charliekilo [n=ck@24.144.224.87] has joined #lisp 23:55:32 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:57:46 slash__ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C876.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:14 -!- slash__ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C876.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:58:42 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:58:49 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp