00:00:22 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #lisp 00:01:28 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:03:07 tali713 [n=user@c-71-195-45-159.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:16 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:05:34 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:06:22 How do I produce the effect of returning from a handler-case clause in a handler-bind binding? 00:06:39 i.e. continue execution from the end of the handler-bind form. 00:06:45 By performing a non-local exit such as tagbody/go, block/return-from, etc. 00:07:02 catch/throw is the other one. 00:07:46 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 00:08:07 so no automatically generated thing to return-from or something? 00:08:13 damn 00:08:27 If you want handler-case, you know where to find it. 00:09:00 nyef: yeah but I need handler-bind for another thing, and it seems silly to wrap one in the other. 00:09:11 Then use a non-local exit. 00:10:38 Yes, it's possibly another indent level, but it's only two spaces. And each function is an implicit BLOCK, and implicit TAGBODYs show up in some of the oddest places (well, to my intuition, which admittedly hasn't properly been tuned for implicit tagbody). 00:11:29 *Ralith* will just stack the handlers 00:11:30 thanks 00:11:32 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:11:42 No problem. Good luck with your program. 00:15:56 has anyone ever done something with CL where errors cascade across threads using the condition system? (thread A spawns thread B, thread B errors, and A is able to handle it, and provide a restart) 00:16:11 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@host-241-72.pubnet.pdx.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:16:14 Not... intentionally. 00:16:24 And certainly not in a controlled fashion. 00:16:36 hm 00:16:40 guess it's worth a shot <_< 00:16:53 sykopomp: "errs" 00:17:03 <_3b> sounds like a good way to get deadlocks 00:17:39 fe[nl]ix: ? 00:17:42 Note that you would have to have thread A -pause- until thread B exits for this scenario to be plausible, due to the dynamic extent of condition handlers. 00:17:49 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:18:11 sykopomp: an "error" is a noun, to "err" is the verb. 00:18:33 nyef: and the proper plural of virus is virii 00:18:36 *shrug* 00:18:58 nyef: I'm thinking of something like what erlang does to handle process failures, but partly integrated with the condition system. 00:19:29 http://paste.lisp.org/display/87616 <-- adlai threw together a very basic "thought of this" version of what I'm talking about. 00:19:44 hypnosis_ [n=hypnosis@unaffiliated/hypnosis] has joined #lisp 00:19:49 ("... what's the plural of snuffaluphagus?") 00:20:19 nyef: snuffaluphagai, perhaps 00:21:23 -!- cp2_ [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:21:28 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 00:22:14 snuffaluphagoi 00:23:30 This has to do with some quirk of latin noun endings depending on the third-to-last letter of the word? 00:24:38 isn't the "oi" ending Greek? 00:24:44 emma [n=620e9a47@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-splapnbmpyoyhlxk] has joined #lisp 00:25:45 In CL, do monads buy me anything that mutable closures do not? 00:26:06 nyef: phagus comes from greek phagos(pl. phagoi) and IIRC latin had the exception that words of greek origin are declined as in greek 00:26:09 piso: yes 00:28:37 emacs-dwim: I would imagine that monads are a letter-transposition away from being easily distributed, whereas mutable closures are a pain to move from one image/machine to another. 00:30:01 fe[nl]ix: Cool. Thanks for the language history lesson. 00:31:03 Is "phagos" also where we got the "-phage" suffix meaning, approximately, "-eater"? 00:31:30 yes 00:32:29 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:32:33 This brings up the probably-silly possible meaning of "snuffaluphagus" of "one who eats tobacco". And we'll leave aside the possible (and sillier) Harry Potter reference. 00:32:48 -!- jlf` [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:32:49 -!- HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:34:13 sciendan [n=dan@69.250.212.245] has joined #lisp 00:36:58 Is there a return statement in lisp? 00:37:02 nyef: mutable closures more so than immutable closures? 00:37:32 Retardedpope: No, because there are no statements in lisp. Yes, because Lisp does have a RETURN construct. 00:37:55 ok... (return 0) ? 00:38:14 pkhuong: Yes, if you want them to maintain coherency. It was also a play on monad/nomad. 00:39:19 Retardedpope: Rarely. A function contains an implicit block, which contains an implicit progn, which means that the value from evaluating the last form is returned as the value of the function, so we'd more see "0" than "(return 0)". 00:40:15 (RETURN and it's more flexible cousin RETURN-FROM are actually non-local control-flow operations.) 00:40:26 minion: Thwap for me, please. 00:40:26 nyef: look at Thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 00:40:39 -its- more flexible cousin. 00:41:07 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A410.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:42:32 -!- coyo [n=alex@ppp-70-129-137-41.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit ["sudo nmap -A -PN localhost"] 00:42:48 coyo [n=alex@ppp-70-129-137-41.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:32 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:21 why is the thwap thing so popular? 00:47:22 coliv [n=Coliveir@c-69-248-128-195.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:22 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:50:27 you are not allowed to ask that question 00:51:15 fe[nl]ix: *your 00:51:23 madnificent: have you been reading books ? 00:51:39 I'm calling the firemen 00:52:07 fe[nl]ix: what? how? why? 00:54:58 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:55:26 madnificent: you're dangerously close to asking about the cabal, so let's leave it at that. 00:56:11 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:56:16 impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176440857.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:57:03 madnificent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit_451 01:00:49 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@c-69-248-128-195.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:01:15 *_3b* needs to find more time to work on cl-opengl apps, so i can actually build up some useful utility libs for it :/ 01:01:52 Heh. I should probably find more time to sort out the GLX stuff in my CLX branch. 01:02:21 <_3b> well, write a nice shader abstraction on top of it i can steal for cl-opengl too :) 01:03:04 Heh. Unlikely, given that texture mapping is still a little iffy. 01:04:06 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-afk 01:04:08 (It can only transfer textures that are a multiple of some particular number of octets on the wire, and I forget what the number is, though it might be four.) 01:05:08 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 01:05:44 <_3b> yeah, didn't really expect GLX would support the stuff i'm messing with now :) 01:06:33 what do you guys use for decoding images ? 01:06:47 "decoding" in what sense? 01:07:00 *_3b* has used DevIL, lispbuilder-sdl-image, random lisp libs 01:07:25 decoding in the sense - load jpg/png to use as textures in cl-opengl 01:07:31 For my texture-mapping stuff, I just used ImageMagick. 01:07:51 sykopomp: I'm puzzled 01:08:32 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:08:35 madnificent: about? 01:08:42 Once I had it down to an RGBA bitmap, I could READ-SEQUENCE it just fine, and pass that sequence directly off to the GLX. 01:08:45 HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 01:09:09 cabal, fahrenheit 451, thwat... and the connection between it all 01:09:13 <_3b> guess i should just grab one of my random old half finished shader libs and see if i can figure it out again 01:09:33 madnificent: I told you to not worry about it. Everything is o-kay :) 01:09:47 _3b: you could also try working on a matrix lib! 01:09:57 *madnificent* takes his pills and gets back in line 01:10:07 <_3b> sykopomp: nah, got one of those 01:10:16 _3b: !!! link! 01:10:52 *_3b* us using nikodemus' sb-cga 01:10:58 oh 01:11:37 [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.84.99] has joined #lisp 01:11:42 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:12:00 <_3b> http://random-state.net/files/sb-cga-0.1.tar.gz is it 01:13:03 -!- marioxcc-afk is now known as marioxcc 01:13:21 hm. How bad an idea is it to interrupt threads? 01:13:25 <_< 01:13:25 *_3b* should probably do something with my local modifications to that at some point 01:13:38 sykopomp: as part of a program's normal course? very. 01:14:50 -!- mcspiff` [n=user@drmons0501w-142177077073.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:15:16 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 01:15:42 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:30 -!- emacs-dwim [n=user@74.71.11.230] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:16:44 <_3b> hmm, this shader code requires gl3, guess that is probably a bit higher than i want to require for this app 01:16:51 emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-11-230.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:18:08 chavo_ [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:05 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:20:05 -!- emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-11-230.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:23:27 pkhuong: do you think it's possible to link lisp threads up so you can do an exit signal-style thing as in erlang? 01:24:31 hypnosis [n=hypnosis@217.194.147.131] has joined #lisp 01:25:16 poll on channel operations (or whichever other relevant operation that calls into your library) 01:26:44 emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-11-230.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:27:09 <[Jackal]> Since sbcl.sf.net doesn't provide Win32 binaries for all releases, is it fair to host build installers someplace else for others to download? 01:27:42 Sure, or you could inquire as to what would be required to provide official versions for sbcl.sf.net. 01:28:12 (Have any of the major SBCL/Win32 problems been ironed out while I was offline?) 01:28:29 nyef: don't think so 01:28:29 <_3b> seemed worse last time i tried :( 01:28:37 Bummer. 01:28:52 I'd have thought that at least the external-format thing would get fixed at some point. 01:28:57 <[Jackal]> No official Win32 binaries are available for 1.0.30/31. Even the homepage doesn't reflect changes very often. 01:28:59 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-fugrybpbuoiatmem] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:29:20 *_3b* couldn't get recent slime/sbcl working with new-serve-event, didn't really try to debug much though 01:29:36 Oh boy. 01:29:53 And that leads to the question, "what broke?" 01:30:21 <_3b> dunno, could be just something odd on the system i tried it on 01:30:22 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 01:30:49 <_3b> it seemed to load sbcl OK, but slime never connected 01:32:01 <[Jackal]> Were you using Cygwin Emacs? 01:32:09 *_3b* uses no cygwin 01:32:17 <_3b> (at least not if i can avoid it) 01:32:33 Though, really, serve-event on win32 is always going to be a festering pit until something gets done about the use of file descriptors and the split between the event-notification and data-access handles for sockets (not to mention the other wierd notificaiton requirements for pipes and whatnot). 01:32:53 <[Jackal]> SBCL 1.0.31 seems to work fine here with CVS SLIME (fetched on 23rd) and Win32 native Emacs. Hmm! 01:33:19 <_3b> [Jackal]: debugger works too? 01:33:19 [Jackal]: With or without new-serve-event? And does the debugger work properly as well? 01:34:08 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:34:27 *_3b* tries 01:34:34 <[Jackal]> Used it to compile a project and it seemed to work ok. I mostly use Debian so haven't checked it further. 01:35:23 <_3b> hmm, guess it does seem to work 01:36:02 <_3b> though *communication-style* nil would probably be annoying 01:37:54 I would expect so, particularly with respect to actual GUI applications. 01:38:09 (Hence the entire point of new-serve-event in the first place.) 01:39:50 The other (fourth) annoyance with SBCL/Win32 (after line-endings, fixed memory maps/relocatable cores, and serve-event) is asynchronous interrupt handling (C-c / C-break at console, or C-c C-c in SLIME). 01:41:00 <_3b> oh yeah, did you see someone was actually offering money towards sbcl win32 threading? 01:41:09 -!- hypnosis_ [n=hypnosis@unaffiliated/hypnosis] has quit [Success] 01:41:18 Yes, I did see. 01:42:17 Encouraging, certainly, but it's almost a token amount for the effort required. 01:42:24 <[Jackal]> Was the offer accepted? 01:42:32 <_3b> yeah, figured that would be the case :( 01:43:05 Really, it's a case of going all the way back to the original intent of the EBX-threading patches and re-doing things from there. 01:44:15 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:44:36 So call it (to a zero'th approximation) 2-3 weeks of work just to get back to where I left off with the ability to create a new lisp thread but no gc synchronization or any other thread synchronization. 01:44:53 -!- ignas_ [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:44:58 And that for one of the maybe six people who would know what they're doing. 01:45:20 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:45:36 nyef: EBX threading on x86? How awful is the impact on perf? I wonder how hard it would be to let regalloc move the thread-tn move around (including spilling to the stack). 01:46:07 <_3b> ah, looks like slime got specific workarounds for sbcl/win32 a few months ago, that is probably what conflicts with new-serve-event 01:46:11 Is it an interesting trade-off on !win32? 01:46:25 -!- prxq [n=mommer@g228072229.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:46:33 Don't know what the perf impact is, but it's probably measurable on linux if you pick a suitably old SBCL to apply the patches to. 01:47:13 On !win32? Well, x86 (non-x86-64) osx might find a use for it. 01:47:45 prxq [n=mommer@e179203072.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 01:47:47 And I had it running on Linux, so if you needed to have the FS register for something else, then it'd be available. 01:48:09 (Not that I can come up with a scenario for that other than WINE.) 01:48:41 Or if you had a particular use for EBX, but that's even less likely than a particular use for FS. 01:49:19 -!- HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:49:35 So, it's doable, it ran at one point, but the use-cases pretty much boil down to easy testing to make sure some compiler changes aren't as likely to break win32 threading. 01:49:59 As you guessed, I'm worried about such a global change on an ill-loved platform. If at least some of it was shared across the x86 backend... 01:50:11 jlf [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 01:50:52 Yeah, but... The best I can do is provide the ability to share it. The motivation is rather beyond me. 01:51:14 ludwig- [n=ludwig@166.205.130.145] has joined #lisp 01:52:02 -!- ludwig- [n=ludwig@166.205.130.145] has quit [Client Quit] 01:52:25 Are we going to have to ask the SLIME people to change their win32 fixes to only apply for (and win32 nil-communication-style)? 01:52:51 <_3b> nyef: testing to see if that fixes it now... 01:53:47 -!- jlf [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:55:20 c|mell [n=cmell@BEXIMAC.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 01:55:25 <_3b> yeah, looks like that is the problem 01:55:59 jlf [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 01:56:12 So, it occurs to me that the one thing that would be simultaneously useful in and of itself, helpful towards getting threading going on win32, and relatively low-impact is setting up a "working" console control handler. 01:57:13 The problem being, of course, that the console input handling ends up doing something sufficiently funky when a C-c occurs that SBCL reads it as an EOF. 01:57:29 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 01:57:57 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:18 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:58:55 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:50 The problem being, of course, that when a C-c occurs the console input handling ends up doing something sufficiently funky that SBCL reads it as an EOF. 02:00:55 Something like that. 02:01:05 -!- Aszarsha [n=aszarsha@91-164-146-2.rev.libertysurf.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:01:31 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:04 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 02:02:15 I guess that could be patched around with a simple test in the guts of the read handling. 02:02:16 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.210.80] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 02:02:37 <_3b> hmm, swank.lisp looks like it gets loaded after swank-sbcl.lisp, makes it harder to override the workarounds in swank-sbcl 02:03:17 <_3b> actually, i guess .swank.lisp is what i was looking for, not swank.lisp 02:04:20 *_3b* tries to figure out where .swank.lisp gets loaded 02:04:59 <_3b> ok, so apparently after swank.lisp, so still too late 02:05:11 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 02:07:42 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:07:54 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:38 <_3b> i guess .swank.lisp could just undo the workaround :p 02:09:50 You can't have the workaround just test swank:*communication-style* at runtime? 02:10:16 <_3b> hmm, i guess it could do that too 02:10:42 <_3b> http://github.com/nablaone/slime/commit/5cd9a71d53d9ac1216d60bfd33d7f26a8938b06a#L1R173 is the change in question 02:12:25 ... That code looks suspiciously familiar. 02:14:32 Yeah, so it looks like the issue is that it's doing a second WSAEventSelect() on a socket that already has an associated event handle. 02:16:33 And there's the lovely possibility of it not closing its shiny new event handle, as it's not part of a UWP-cleanup. 02:19:24 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-174-63.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 02:19:41 So I would change the win32 version of input-ready-p to check the communication-style, only do the nasty win32 junk if it's NIL, and have a comment to the effect that if the user has overridden the communication style then they are almost certainly using a fixed serve-event. 02:20:17 That should get us status-quo on systems without new-serve-event and status-quo-ante on systems with new-serve-event. 02:21:12 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-68-125-52-195.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 02:21:27 hypnosis_ [n=hypnosis@217.194.147.131] has joined #lisp 02:24:07 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:31:51 Right, I'm off to bed. G'night all. 02:33:58 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.137.216] has joined #lisp 02:37:27 -!- seangrove [n=user@173.11.104.25] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 02:37:49 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:38:17 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:15 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.164.121] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:40:32 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.164.121] has joined #lisp 02:43:14 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-1-105.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:43:22 -!- [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.84.99] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:43:55 -!- Dawgmatix__ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:45:31 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:46:29 -!- hypnosis [n=hypnosis@unaffiliated/hypnosis] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:46:53 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-33-92-164.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:22 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.131.199] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:50:16 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:50:41 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:53:47 deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has joined #lisp 02:54:21 coderdad_ [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:39 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@64.9.242.109] has joined #lisp 03:03:57 lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-213-154.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:32 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-20-146.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:06:40 -!- deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:09:50 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-1-105.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:10:54 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-1-105.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:15:53 deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has joined #lisp 03:16:55 Does anyone know if UFFI supports callbacks? 03:18:24 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.164.121] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:19:11 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-194-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:20:33 ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 03:21:14 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-2-132.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:22:07 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:26:47 -!- deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:28:48 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:32:59 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176440857.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 03:34:11 jikanter [n=jordan@24-148-12-119.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 03:34:27 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@BEXIMAC.MIT.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:41:43 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:42:23 does Slime do autocompletion in just the repl buffer, or can it do it editing buffers as well? 03:42:39 I don't get autocompletion when I am editing code in a file 03:42:53 <_3b> any buffer, but bindings might be different 03:43:07 pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-129-200.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:11 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:43:40 how can I enable it for the file buffers? 03:44:45 <_3b> looks like it is bound to C-c tab or M-tab here in normal buffers 03:44:46 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:45:10 seangrove [n=user@173.11.104.25] has joined #lisp 03:46:40 <_3b> C-c C-i and esc tab might be easier to use aliases of those depending on OS and typing preferences 03:46:56 M-tab is Window's chord for switching application; C-c tab is a bit awkward. Is it safe to rebind it as Tab alone, just as in LispWorks? 03:47:43 <_3b> you might want slime-indent-and-complete-symbol for that (that is what repl uses) 03:49:03 -!- pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-129-200.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:50:09 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-220-175.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:50:51 *_3b* would probably try to add it to the list of things M-/ checks before rebinding tab, but is too lazy... 03:51:56 cheers _3b! 03:53:32 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:37 -!- hypnosis_ [n=hypnosis@unaffiliated/hypnosis] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:58:06 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:58:24 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:02:57 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:04:05 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483AC33.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:04:13 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483AC33.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:44 redblue [i=star@ppp032.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 04:17:10 *fusss* wishes web services would distinguish between characters and octets 04:17:36 "appdata An optional url-encoded string with a maximum length of 100 characters. The Yahoo! login server returns this data to your endpoint URL without evaluating it" -- Yahoo 04:17:48 the dipshits mean octets 04:19:55 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:21:22 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 04:27:10 chavo_ [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:24 -!- sciendan [n=dan@69.250.212.245] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:30:00 Baconizer [n=baconize@unaffiliated/baconizer] has joined #lisp 04:30:06 -!- Baconizer [n=baconize@unaffiliated/baconizer] has left #lisp 04:31:57 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@64.9.242.109] has quit [] 04:34:35 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:44:24 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:46:21 fusss: lack of good documentation practice :( 04:48:25 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:52:04 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:54:52 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:00:20 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:03:23 -!- proun [n=proun@76.180.85.22] has quit ["leaving"] 05:05:55 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:06:26 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit ["off"] 05:06:30 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:08:44 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:09:12 _jason6907 [n=thot@59.105.27.43] has joined #lisp 05:18:09 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:20:57 -!- seangrove [n=user@173.11.104.25] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 05:22:29 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 05:25:13 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan_ 05:26:10 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 05:27:12 -!- _jason6907 [n=thot@59.105.27.43] has quit [] 05:32:58 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 05:35:28 milanj [n=milan@93.87.150.100] has joined #lisp 05:35:28 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.150.100] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:41:13 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:43:05 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-3-170.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:25 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:53:42 seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:57:22 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:58:51 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:58:55 -!- ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [] 06:01:19 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-1-179.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:02:34 sciendan [n=dan@c-69-250-212-245.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:59 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:04:44 hello 06:04:52 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:09:13 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:10:10 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-7-141.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:10:10 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 06:13:11 fiveop [n=fiveop@e179165203.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:13:42 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:16:53 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:23:01 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.131] has joined #lisp 06:27:18 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 06:34:35 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.85.79] has joined #lisp 06:40:46 serichsen [n=harleqin@77.6.207.155] has joined #lisp 06:40:49 good morning 06:42:41 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:53:50 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:56:39 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:57:12 good morning 06:57:28 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:59:18 talk-wessel.pdf is pretty impressive 06:59:28 large-scale semantic web stuff in CL 06:59:28 link 06:59:44 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:00:32 http://www.racer-systems.com/products/index.phtml 07:00:36 these are the products 07:01:14 http://weitz.de/eclm2009/talk-wessel.pdf 07:02:26 thanks. now I have something to read with coffee in the morning. :) now to bed. nite folks. 07:03:07 girzel [n=user@123.121.239.93] has joined #lisp 07:04:58 heh, using allegrograph (: 07:05:23 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:05:54 <_8david> wow, the GUI is ugly. Is that "CLIM ugly" or just ordinary "CG ugly"? 07:06:26 I believe it's regular CG plus emacs ugliness 07:06:44 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:06:56 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 07:07:02 wouldn't hurt to use non-lossily compressed graphics at the right aspect ratio, and with cleartype turned on 07:07:32 <_8david> "CG use" plus "university project" (i.e., no designer involved): a fatal combination 07:07:36 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-25-234.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:07:44 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 07:07:52 well, at least it's easy to get /something/ out the door (: 07:07:59 *antifuchs* giggles 07:09:12 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:09:25 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:09:46 but then, since this is web-related, I expect most semweb apps to move to browser-based UIs soonish 07:09:58 *antifuchs* cracks fingers 07:09:59 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:59 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177077073.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:11:27 antifuchs: i'm developing one for the mobile phone right now... 07:12:19 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:12:24 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 07:13:04 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:13:37 levy_ [n=levy@apn-89-223-170-93.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 07:14:14 <_8david> from what Jans said in his talk at ECLM 200x, their clients are mostly non-semantic-web projects which have been using classic AI/inference stuff for years and are just switching to new technologies. BICWB. 07:14:47 (defun doc (f) `(documentation (quote ,f) 'function)) ; Is there a saner way to do this? 07:14:49 <_8david> s/WB/BW/ 07:16:13 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:16:35 Makoryu: are you trying to make DOC a shorter version of DOCUMENTATION which defaults to 'function for an argument? 07:16:53 antifuchs: why wouldn't you in the first place? 07:16:59 how about (defun doc (f) (documentation f 'function))? 07:17:20 fusss: This way, I can write (doc mapcar) instead of (doc 'mapcar) 07:17:31 fiveop: for data-entry apps, it might have made more sense to have them on the desktop in the past 07:17:36 <_3b> Makoryu: you need a macro for that 07:17:47 Whoops, meant to write defmacro 07:17:53 or maybe it's just that the people making them were used to having things run on their local machines 07:18:01 No wonder I confused you guys :p 07:18:50 <_3b> in that case using QUOTE sometimes and ' sometimes is a bit odd, but otherwise not sure what you would consider 'saner' 07:19:39 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:20:11 _3b: Yeah, I see I can write ',f 07:20:15 I could imagine, that soon everyone's got a small httpd on his machine as a sort of local application framework 07:20:20 Makoryu: (defmacro doc (f) `(documentation ',f 'function)) 07:20:27 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:20:27 <_3b> i'd probably also call it something that was a bit more clear it got function documentation, if it isn't just a repl shortcut 07:20:45 _3b: Yep, it's a REPL shortcut. 07:20:52 <_3b> or add an optional arg that defaults to 'function 07:21:07 That would make it a little more difficult 07:21:24 Hmmm 07:22:09 <_3b> C-c C-d C-d seems easier though :p 07:22:25 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-236.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:22:45 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:23:01 Makoryu: in the future, if you want to dispatch on a small to medium set of types, it's better to use methods 07:24:58 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 07:25:03 good morning 07:25:06 ( (defmethod doc ((x function)) (documentation x 'function)) 07:25:19 fusss: Why isn't 'documentation a method already, then? 07:25:23 Wait, never mind that 07:25:27 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-17.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:25:34 sorry, remove the first #\( 07:26:45 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 07:26:47 Makoryu: there is also TYPECASE 07:27:13 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest52009 07:27:37 (defun doc (x) (documentation x (typecase (function 'function) ..))) 07:28:19 (doc #'typecase) -> NIL 07:28:33 (documentation 'typecase 'function) -> "Documentation" 07:28:36 not all functions have documentation :-) 07:28:54 typecase is a macro, not a function 07:29:17 DOCUMENTATION will just extract doc strings from a form where it has one 07:29:22 Yeah. Why's 'function work? 07:29:46 which definition of DOC are you using? and are you sure it's that one? ;-) 07:30:04 Because macros have a macro-function. 07:30:12 rename your various DOCs so not to confuse them; doc-fun, doc-macro, doc-typecase, doc-gf, etc. 07:31:22 It is an error to use a macro name in (function ...) so your implementation failed there. 07:31:29 Makoryu: i rolled out my own type system which is used by Lisp, SQL, HTML and Javascript code :-) 07:31:45 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:31:47 pjb: This is SBCL ;) 07:32:10 pjb: Actually, it seems it wraps the macro with a lambda 07:32:27 Makoryu: the type case solution has an elipsis .. which is meant to signify its incompleteness; if you want a _working_ solution you will need to implement a case for every common lisp type 07:32:35 -!- Guest52009 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 07:32:38 fusss: Yyyep 07:32:39 #+clisp : (defmacro m (&rest x) `(list ,@x)) (function m) --> *** - FUNCTION: undefined function M 07:33:38 #'defun -> # 07:33:46 addled [n=adlirc@209.20.68.236] has joined #lisp 07:34:12 That said IIRC, implementations are allowed to overload CL symbols. 07:34:23 clhs function 07:34:23 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_fn.htm 07:34:45 ...Wait, but for actual macros it just prints # 07:35:03 Compare with (macro-function 'm) 07:36:01 Ah, but they're allowed to do that: It is an error to use function on a function name that does not denote a function in the lexical environment in which the function form appears. Specifically, it is an error to use function on a symbol that denotes a macro or special form. An implementation may choose not to signal this error for performance reasons, but implementations are forbidden from defining the failure to signal an error as a 07:36:01 useful behavior. 07:36:01 07:36:44 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:36:48 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:37:41 pjb: is "defining as useful behaviour" defined anywhere? 07:38:02 ie. does it mean "it can't have useful side-effects", or "you are not allowed ever to say that it works"? 07:38:46 I'd take the later. But basically it means that a conformant program should not use the "useful behavior". 07:39:20 I know, but it's about conforming implementations now, not conforming code 07:39:57 (shadow 'function) (defmacro function (name) `(if (fboundp ',name) (cl:function ,name) (error "~S is not a function" ',name))) 07:40:33 Here, conforming implementation may do as they want, but conforming programs must not call cl:function on a non function name. 07:41:15 Perhaps fdefinition would be better than fboundp in this function macro... 07:43:10 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-3-170.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:44:57 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:51 -!- addled [n=adlirc@209.20.68.236] has left #lisp 07:50:35 Addled [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has joined #lisp 07:50:54 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has left #lisp 07:52:46 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 07:53:34 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:56:09 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:56:45 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:01:55 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-237.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 08:02:15 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:02:18 xan__ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:05:32 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:09:10 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-237.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit ["be back later"] 08:10:56 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:10:57 galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:13:06 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:16:22 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-237.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 08:19:06 minion: memo for nikodemus: did random-state.net expire on purpose? 08:19:06 Remembered. I'll tell nikodemus when he/she/it next speaks. 08:19:24 r00tzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:21:07 sunwukong [n=vukung@business-80-99-161-225.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:22:31 -!- xan__ is now known as xan 08:23:23 hmm, it did not expire... 08:24:13 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:26:15 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:26:59 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:30:55 -!- rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:32:09 -!- Addled [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:32:33 Addled [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has joined #lisp 08:34:01 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:34:12 -!- Addled [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:34:31 Addled [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has joined #lisp 08:38:48 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:39:10 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:39:50 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:40:22 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.128.94.43] has joined #lisp 08:45:58 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:46:09 Is there a no-operation function that just returns its argument? It should be a function, not a macro. 08:46:15 antifuchs: about that interface, every time that the RacerEditor code window lost focus the cursor got reset to position 1,1 so every time he switched back to the editor to try a new demo he had to scroll down :D 08:46:21 -!- attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 08:46:21 identity? 08:46:31 fe[nl]ix: oh arghl 08:46:45 it's details like this that hurt 08:46:58 Zhivago: thanks, that's the one 08:47:04 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 08:52:26 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:52:43 rread [n=rread@94-169-108-137.cable.ubr22.aztw.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:53:41 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-84-210.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 08:55:19 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:30 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 09:05:56 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Success] 09:07:16 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 09:09:19 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 09:15:44 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:16:23 Plasticism [n=anonymou@nocat-out.u-bordeaux.fr] has joined #lisp 09:17:43 -!- Plasticism [n=anonymou@nocat-out.u-bordeaux.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 09:18:00 _jason8065 [n=thot@59-105-27-43.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has joined #lisp 09:20:27 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp032.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 09:26:38 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:27:42 -!- emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-11-230.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:28:37 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:30:03 redblue [i=star@ppp043.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 09:33:30 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.128.94.43] has quit [Success] 09:38:22 rudi [n=rudi@mail.ist.tu-graz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 09:41:26 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:43:18 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 09:43:18 09:43:18 -!- names: ccl-logbot Harag Odin- rudi redblue QinGW1 hkBst nvoorhies ia yango kejsaren rread QinGW thehcdreamer Addled sunwukong r00tzlevel mishoo galdor xan ejs1 trebor_dki mrSpec kami- jdz levy_ KingNato sepult` girzel daniel_ mvilleneuve mrsolo serichsen Levenson attila_lendvai ASau fiveop Davse_Bamse sciendan KingNatoG5 seangrove simplechat Yuuhi jikanter OmniMancer legumbre_ lpolzer coderdad_ seisatsu xinming_ rares kpreid jlf prxq saikat_ coyo 09:43:18 -!- names: emma cp2 tali713 pixel5 rtoym hugod sellout jamesmkukla PissedNumlock peddie Demosthenes djkthx setheus Phoodus kmcorbett1 Jasko2 zeroish glogic pjb jyujin_ Ralith _8david plutonas ak70 Summermute nyef htk_ hefner proq fe[nl]ix blandest ol3 Fufie younder mornfall looooop cmm AntiSpamMeta gz` asksol avigesaa tvaalen dalkvist dcrawford Borbus sepi meingbg rbancroft bfein hyperboreean luis mtd nicktastic zbigniew specbot matimago jkantz srcerer 09:43:18 -!- names: retupmoca minion kuwabara patmatch smithzv rsynnott rotty Khisanth leadnose stepnem mgr phadthai mathrick p8m herbieB mbishop frodef mle madnificent schme xristos sykopomp Dodek vcgomes ecraven a-s Draggor _3b dfox CrazyEddy joast erk antifuchs Taggnostr mikezor_ wlr sjbach Adrinael albino DeusExPikachu redline6561 boyscared koning_robot Retardedpope djinni` billstclair s0ber_ dmiles_afk araujo Tordek lukego prip_ fgtech ole3 lukjad007 deepfire 09:43:18 -!- names: lharc qebab tarbo chii pkhuong Axioplase_ cods Orest^bnc krappie acieroid jyujin turbo24prg jsnell Tril clog thijso housel guaqua ramus` Pepe_ hobbsc_ guenthr bakkdoor johnb Intensity KatrinaTheLamia authentic blast_hardcheese necroforest arbscht codemonkeyx hoeq^ ski drhodes rdd` lemoinem spiaggia spacebat egn marcoecc z0d eno kiko_ blitz_ ``Erik bdowning tsuru wasabi eal anekos DrForr Patzy scode weirdo Fade Soulman lisppaste michaelw koollman 09:43:18 -!- names: JeLuF pok cow-orker aja nullman johs dostoyevsky fnordus Zhivago enn Guest86281 r0bby kei pbusser3 robewald rlonstein l_a_m alexbobp ianmcorvidae hohum Xach Xof drewc Bucciarati eihrul Buganini tltstc piso rapacity felipe tic easyE Aisling erg foom literal wgl obscurious sbahra _3b` futuranon kleppari jrockway nasloc__ holycow lnostdal sytse ampleyfly envi_office joga yahooooo p_l ineiros 09:43:39 pragma_ [n=pragma@blackshell.com] has joined #lisp 09:43:43 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:44:07 -!- pragma_ is now known as Guest16261 09:44:29 hello 09:46:22 can anybody point me to beginners tutorial (not just list of commands) about debugging (stepping etc) in slime? 09:47:11 and/or has anybody tried running cusp with eclipse 3.5? 09:47:26 Hm. I usually just read backtraces and examine the data. 09:47:56 Harag: http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov maybe 09:48:40 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.193.197] has joined #lisp 09:48:52 I watched the movie and got (break) from it but I keep on feeling that I am missing a whole world of options 09:49:09 well then maybe I need a tutorial about to understand back traces better ? 09:49:18 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:50:42 Harag: maybe you should think a little bit about what you don't understand and ask questions if appropriate. 09:50:50 unfortunatly I come from a ms world and have been spoilt/corrupted with the way debugging is done in there ide's 09:51:27 Harag: do you know you can expand backtraces in SLIME and examine their arguments? 09:51:39 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:51:45 Harag: there are lines per function call, but also lines per scope establishment, etc. 09:52:31 -!- rudi [n=rudi@mail.ist.tu-graz.ac.at] has left #lisp 09:52:31 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 09:52:37 rudi [n=rudi@mail.ist.tu-graz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 09:52:56 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 09:54:49 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6DD9A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:33 Ok let me try to re-phrase: Maybe my problem is that I think I am missing the lisp way of debugging..I am use to placing breaks then being able to step from the break and just to hover the mouse to see the value of variables. 09:55:38 -!- rudi [n=rudi@mail.ist.tu-graz.ac.at] has left #lisp 09:55:50 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:56:31 *attila_lendvai* rarely miss stepping and even then not badly enough to look up how stepping works in slime 09:57:03 I have placed breaks in lisp code and expanded the back trace to look at variable values...but half the time the variable I am looking for not listed ...maybe I am placing the break in the wrong place ...or just looking in the wron place 09:57:11 might not just be the lisp style of debugging. The style of code, too. 09:57:19 Harag: SBCL does have a stepper. I don't remember whether it's that well integrated with SLIME. 09:57:24 it integrates with slime 09:57:35 <_3b> you might need to compile with higher debug settings to see local variables 09:57:41 I haven't really used it, but it does at least kind of work 09:57:50 (with sufficiently-high debug) 09:58:05 Harag: need to tell the compiler to include debug info, like (declare (optimize (debug 3))) at the beginning of blocks 09:58:08 xof: thanks 09:58:31 or with C-u C-c C-c! 09:58:40 but mostly if your code is a lot of small functions, then TRACE manages to isolate the problem to within one or two lines of code, usually 09:58:49 -!- tali713 [n=user@c-71-195-45-159.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has left #lisp 09:59:20 -!- Addled [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has left #lisp 09:59:40 Addled [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has joined #lisp 10:00:06 if one "things hard (TM)" about it 10:00:10 amaron [n=amaron@93.86.161.198] has joined #lisp 10:00:18 I just put (declaim (OPTIMIZE (SAFETY 3) (SPACE 0) (SPEED 0) (DEBUG 3))) in ~/.sbclrc 10:00:36 declaim or declare? 10:01:02 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:01:44 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:02:23 well my coding style is a problem I am working on ...but that is a whole other discussion that I will tackle once I have worked through "On Lisp" again line for line 10:02:54 Harag: that book might not be the best source for good coding stule. 10:03:01 *style 10:03:43 luis: what would be the alternatives? 10:03:57 minion: pcl? 10:04:02 pcl: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 10:04:09 Harag: Practical Common Lisp 10:04:15 http://gigamonkeys.com/book 10:04:54 luis: Practical Common Lisp is a good quick reference ...but thats it for me... 10:06:14 I use it often to find the way to do something or at least the reletative functions or lisp way but then end up hunting further for good use examples 10:07:25 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:08:11 I will try the suggested debug settings to see if I can get more use out of traces etc 10:10:11 On a different note ... is there something special to be done to get slime's "Update Indentation" to work? 10:10:45 Harag: also PAIP: http://norvig.com/paip.html 10:12:08 jdz: thanx I will look into that 10:12:57 levy pasted "How far is this from working?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87700 10:13:13 just random fun 10:22:10 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:22:12 sunwukon` [n=vukung@business-80-99-161-225.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:22:21 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 10:22:31 I've found this http://jsnell.iki.fi/blog/archive/2005-07-06.html 10:22:44 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 10:23:25 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 10:23:43 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:23:46 hehe, shake-lisp-and-die :-) 10:33:02 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:34:03 _jason6970 [n=thot@59-105-27-43.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has joined #lisp 10:35:34 Good afternoon. 10:38:08 Harag: I often feel the way you do, i.e., that I must be missing something, because I find debugging much harder than I think it should be, and much harder than it was when I worked in C with GDB a few years back. 10:39:11 rudi [n=rudi@mail.ist.tu-graz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 10:40:48 -!- sunwukong [n=vukung@business-80-99-161-225.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:41:00 uh. when i spend more than a few hours _identifying_ an issue in cl, i'm already surprised that it's turning into a long debugging session. in C i remember debugging/hunting for days sometimes... 10:41:01 spiaggia: well I hope for my sanities sake it is just a paradigm shit i need to make...lol 10:41:49 actually an hour of looking for an issue is already unusual in our codebase (which is an enterprise bullshit framework, web stuff, sql db, etc) 10:42:29 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 10:42:40 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 10:43:07 -!- pem is now known as pemryan 10:43:36 so fairly different from e.g. tracking down problems with say numerical stability in an implementation of an iterated algorithm, or a bug in an implementation of a network protocol 10:43:47 -!- sunwukon` [n=vukung@business-80-99-161-225.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:44:02 attila_lendvai: well maybe my problem is compounded by the fact that I use hunchentoot and mosty just end up with a error in the browser that then ash to be found in code some where 10:45:16 once I have identified the general area where the problem is stepping would help finding the problem line of coe so much faster ..I think 10:45:28 Xof: yes, that's why i've added a comment, because the statement before is highly context dependent 10:45:50 yeah, I was trying to give different examples :-) 10:46:36 lispers are supposed to write network protocol compilers and debug that... :) 10:47:12 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.85.79] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:47:23 sure -- when I work on CLX, that's kind of what I'm doing, and it hurts 10:49:16 benbos67 [n=ben@124.177.162.112] has joined #lisp 10:50:49 -!- benbos67 [n=ben@124.177.162.112] has quit [Client Quit] 10:55:35 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 10:57:10 -!- _jason6970 [n=thot@59-105-27-43.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has quit [] 10:58:14 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:01:30 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 11:03:12 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 11:05:05 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 11:06:21 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:07:48 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:08:05 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 11:08:58 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 11:09:09 whoppix [n=whoppix@88.88.65.49] has joined #lisp 11:09:18 -!- ol3 [n=user@62.96.71.176] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:11:21 -!- rread [n=rread@94-169-108-137.cable.ubr22.aztw.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [] 11:19:59 HET2 [n=diman@131.251.176.98] has joined #lisp 11:20:23 Aszarsha [n=aszarsha@91-164-151-78.rev.libertysurf.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:38 serichsen pasted "cl-containers:k-best-heap-container -- what am I doing wrong?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87705 11:22:30 ignas_ [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 11:23:00 -!- Harag [n=phil@iburst-41-213-36-215.iburst.co.za] has left #lisp 11:26:11 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-151.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 11:30:23 KingNato_ [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 11:32:40 serichsen: you're using cl-containers 11:33:57 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:34:31 sunwukong [n=vukung@business-80-99-161-225.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:35:28 -!- emma [n=620e9a47@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-splapnbmpyoyhlxk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:36:35 -!- KingNato_ [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:36:40 KingNato_ [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 11:37:52 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:37:53 -!- KingNato_ is now known as KingNato 11:43:56 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:44:44 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:45:44 Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:23 ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.30] has joined #lisp 11:48:34 BLM 2009-09-30 1800 @ NEU WVG 108 - Christine Flood on Fortress 11:50:11 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 11:56:00 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 11:56:07 RockyM [n=n@194.230.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 11:56:54 -!- RockyM [n=n@194.230.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:59:03 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:00:13 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:00:16 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:27 salva [n=salva@47.Red-81-41-170.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:26 pr_ [n=pr@p579CA793.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:40 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 12:08:58 luis: is there an alternative? 12:09:42 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:04 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 12:12:56 Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483B2D1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:26 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 12:14:58 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:16:50 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:06 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483B2D1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:18:24 Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483B2D1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:27 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:18:28 -!- pr_ is now known as pr 12:19:55 adityo [n=adityo@122.169.68.116] has joined #lisp 12:26:05 rread [n=rread@94-169-108-137.cable.ubr22.aztw.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:29:44 -!- rudi [n=rudi@mail.ist.tu-graz.ac.at] has quit ["Client exciting"] 12:30:07 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:30:26 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483AC33.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:32:18 -!- rread [n=rread@94-169-108-137.cable.ubr22.aztw.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:32:33 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-gkpzblyzxtfvajcs] has joined #lisp 12:32:35 serichsen: yes: not using cl-containers. 12:33:11 mulander [i=mulander@078088239019.lubin.vectranet.pl] has joined #lisp 12:33:29 there is a very nice TREES package, for instance. or FSET. 12:35:08 hefner_ [n=hefner@ppp-58-11-45-70.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 12:35:35 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-11-45-70.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:36:24 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@e179165203.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 12:36:53 nowhere_man [n=pierre@LAubervilliers-151-11-16-232.w193-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:41:57 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:43:04 Dawgmatix__ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:13 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.169.68.116] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:44:19 is there a pure tree-based set implementation for CL? 12:45:08 (using say red-black-trees ordered by some hash) 12:45:12 johnny_z [n=anonymou@217.24.250.130] has joined #lisp 12:49:37 adityo [n=adityo@122.169.68.116] has joined #lisp 12:49:37 -!- johnny_z [n=anonymou@217.24.250.130] has quit [Client Quit] 12:49:43 johnny_z [n=anonymou@217.24.250.130] has joined #lisp 12:51:32 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.169.68.116] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:51:38 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:52:05 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 12:53:19 tau [i=proxy@201.64.181.4] has joined #lisp 12:53:29 -!- tau [i=proxy@201.64.181.4] has left #lisp 12:53:46 Fare: FSET? 12:55:31 -!- johnny_z [n=anonymou@217.24.250.130] has quit [] 12:57:01 adityo [n=adityo@122.169.85.135] has joined #lisp 12:57:13 looks good indeed 12:57:21 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:57:54 attila_lendvai, levy_ : I had a meeting with the customer and now, I unfortunately have a deadline :) 12:58:35 unfortunately? 12:58:59 Fare: yes. Isn't it better to program without deadlines? 12:59:00 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:59:12 Yes, it is. 12:59:14 kami-, good news 12:59:25 kami-, I hope its at the end of 2010 12:59:49 But it's also good to get bead, shelter, internet and power for the computers :-) 12:59:52 levy_: to have it rock solid, maybe 2016? :) 13:00:02 deadlines are nice for the sound they produce when they fly by 13:00:17 s/bead/bread/ 13:00:43 brb 13:01:24 kami-, I hope we can make it little bit earlier, say 2013 13:01:56 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441929.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 13:03:57 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.85.79] has joined #lisp 13:04:09 kami-, deadlines are good - they help get things done. 13:04:17 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:05:16 coliv [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has joined #lisp 13:07:36 c|mell [n=cmell@121.184.15.12] has joined #lisp 13:07:51 is there a *one-liner* i fail to remember that can insert an item in a list at a given position? i know how to do it... i'm looking for a trivial one-liner. 13:08:25 something like an insert-at... 13:08:48 -!- Dawgmatix__ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:08:56 attila_lendvai: (setf (nthcdr list n) (cons new-elt (nthcdr list (1+ n)))) + 13:08:58 ? 13:09:23 nthcdr is not a standard accessor 13:09:34 oh. hmm. 13:09:46 ah, I'm confused. 13:10:22 (setf (cdr (nthcdr list (1- n))) (cons new-elt (nthcdr list n))) where N is the position you want to insert at. 13:11:05 what if you want to insert at position 0? You lose. 13:11:05 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.169.85.135] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:11:11 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has left #lisp 13:11:34 adityo [n=adityo@122.169.85.135] has joined #lisp 13:11:36 Fare: in that case you use push? I guess it depends whether you want a macro or a function 13:11:59 ok, so the answer is none, unless somewhere in a util lib. thanks nevertheless! 13:11:59 ldiff and nreconc should come in handy 13:12:30 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-130-54.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:12:34 Good afternoon! 13:12:41 good morning! 13:13:44 ruediger [n=ruediger@93-82-5-138.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:13:46 good 3:14 13:13:50 no, it's not pi 13:13:53 good afternoon 13:14:11 levy_: Are you in New Zealand? 13:14:34 beach: it's "Pi PM" 13:14:57 Fare: your're right re deadlines. Without them, I wouldn't finish /anything/ 13:15:01 *beach* wishes people would use ISO8601 13:15:04 beach, should I? 13:15:15 levy_: We seem to be 12 hours off. 13:16:08 Anyway, that's boring. 13:16:22 why is it ISO and not IOS? 13:16:24 hmm 13:17:11 It's OSI: Organisation de Standadisation Internationale. 13:17:27 International Standardization Organization. 13:17:30 yes, it's just that some people spell it backwards 13:18:01 splittist [n=dmurray@ASt-Lambert-153-1-72-82.w83-204.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:18:02 matimago: according to the wp article on ISO8601, it's International Organization for Standardization 13:18:06 morning 13:18:21 Adlai: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO#Name_and_abbreviation has other info 13:18:26 hello splittist 13:18:33 Adlai: well, then I don't know. Perhaps an historic legacy? 13:18:43 morning splittist 13:19:01 Xach: when can we expect the next addition to the whimsy-empire? 13:19:13 matimago: interesting, the link Xach posted answers my question much better than I expected! thanks Xach 13:20:10 jfwi ? 13:20:17 splittist: too busy selling copies of existing bits of it, actually... 13:20:18 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:20:38 *Xach* has two customers pending for installations 13:21:01 the sbcl doesn't put them off? :) 13:21:14 -!- PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:21:40 Xach told them about sbcl? 13:21:54 Indeed, it's better to use Greek rather than bitch about French or English :-) 13:22:03 There's a percentage of people who ask about it and then are put off by something (they usually don't tell me what) and never respond to my followup. 13:22:25 And the rest say "Ok, I'll take it! How do I pay?" 13:22:46 Xach: what is this? 13:22:49 I am upfront about how it requires screen, sbcl, emacs, root on a linux server, etc. 13:22:49 Interesting. Any value of that percentage? 13:22:52 matimago: but then you have trouble with horrible ol' unicode 13:23:10 what are you selling Xach 13:23:22 Xach: how are they paying for it? Flat price, or monthly license or something? 13:23:37 People pay me for their own version of http://wigflip.com/roflbot/ that they can customize by twiddling html-template files. 13:23:45 rsynnott: flat price. 13:24:01 matimago: the percentage is pretty good, but the volume is pretty low :) 13:24:27 I mean what percentage of people are put off? 13:24:35 Xach: you'd nearly be better doing it as a hosted service for them 13:24:53 matimago: the percentage of people put off is somewhere around 50% 13:24:58 1-that percentage would be a degree of acceptance of lisp :-0 13:25:18 rsynnott: i actually did that for a customer, and i need to streamline it much, much more to make it worth my while. 13:25:25 So Lisp is accepted by 50 customers for each hundred. 13:25:32 Not bad :-) 13:25:56 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:26:00 rsynnott: the "you buy it once and run it" model has a big advantage that i don't have to be (very) responsible for its maintenance after the sale... 13:26:08 yep, there is that 13:26:08 Lisp + Linux + root 13:26:18 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:26:26 the root bit is just for updating the apache config and startup scripts 13:26:30 Linux and root may be more of a problem to customers than Lisp -- who cares about Lisp or PHP? 13:26:44 are you doing this fulltime at this point? 13:26:52 Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 13:27:19 Xach: why is screen needed? (I assume you mean GNU Screen, am I wrong?) 13:27:26 rsynnott: good lord, no. the volume is very low. i can count the customers on the fingers of one prehensile alien nose... 13:27:46 rswarbrick [n=user@cpc2-cove3-0-0-cust910.sol2.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 13:27:47 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.169.85.135] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:27:57 Adlai: it's easy to start the lisp repl and detach from it. other solutions would work, too, but i haven't bothered with them. 13:28:07 adityo [n=adityo@122.169.85.135] has joined #lisp 13:29:12 true, and I guess it's quicker than setting up SLIME. Well good luck with this! 13:29:23 oh, i set up slime, too 13:29:27 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@88.88.65.49] has quit ["Verlassend"] 13:29:41 does it work on ABCL? You could distribute a WAR 13:29:43 but the lisp and the emacs run separately so an emacs problem doesn't wedge the sbcl and vice-versa 13:29:50 rsynnott: i suspect that would be way too slow. 13:29:50 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.169.85.135] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:29:56 Xach: rysnnott idea's great! 13:30:03 yep, possibly; especially if it uses CLOS much 13:30:12 i suppose i could then use the java image libraries 13:30:15 JVM is fast. 13:30:24 matimago: yes. ABCL isn't, though. 13:30:40 What about CLforJava? What's it's current status? 13:30:54 my impression of the few customers i have is that they would *really* like something in PHP, and that java isn't significantly easier than lisp for their deployment purposes. 13:30:57 Xach: write it in Clojure! 13:31:02 *Adlai* ducs 13:31:05 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:31:13 *Adlai* also ducks 13:31:23 You better! 13:31:52 anyway, when someone says "i really want to use it but can you convert it to ?" i'll think about it. 13:32:07 maybe an executable FastCGI/CGI would work? 13:32:17 (that would work on some shared hosting) 13:33:26 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 13:35:25 adityo [n=adityo@122.169.85.135] has joined #lisp 13:35:35 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:36:13 fiveop [n=fiveop@e179165203.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:38:28 a small percentage of inquiries end up with "oh, you want *money* for it? well when my website takes off i'll be able to help you out" 13:38:49 heheh 13:39:08 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:40:11 proun [n=proun@cpe-76-180-85-22.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:40:23 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:40:42 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 13:40:49 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-220-175.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:13 _jason5907 [n=thot@59-105-27-43.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has joined #lisp 13:41:37 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [] 13:42:18 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 13:44:06 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:44:08 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 13:45:33 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 13:46:06 Lycurgus [n=Ren@96.243.2.186] has joined #lisp 13:48:01 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:50:01 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 13:52:36 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:48 -!- rswarbrick [n=user@cpc2-cove3-0-0-cust910.sol2.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:55:31 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:56:34 rswarbrick [n=user@cpc2-cove3-0-0-cust910.sol2.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 13:56:48 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:56:55 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 13:58:06 -!- ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.30] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:58:06 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.169.85.135] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:58:28 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:00:30 levy_: run-sbcl.sh is gone? 14:01:40 29 14:01:45 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 14:01:47 (sorry) 14:03:57 adityo [n=adityo@122.169.85.135] has joined #lisp 14:05:00 kami-, the official in sbcl does what we need 14:05:06 got --core support 14:05:16 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-18.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:05:16 kami-, did you update right now? 14:05:21 yes 14:05:39 there's a new project to check out 14:05:42 hu.dwim.build 14:05:45 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:05:53 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:05:56 it contains our standalone build tool 14:06:13 levy_: I know. I belong to the small group of people who actually read commit messages :) 14:06:23 kami-, good for you 14:06:31 workspace/hu.dwim.environment/bin/build.sh -e -s hu.dwim.build 14:06:37 builds the build tool itself 14:06:45 levy_: and I already tried it with build.sh -d hu.dwim.wui 14:06:49 workspace/hu.dwim.environment/bin/build.sh -e -s hu.dwim.home 14:06:53 levy_: and fell flat on my face :) 14:06:58 builds the server immediately without building the build tool first 14:07:31 kami-, I also do: /home/levy/hu.dwim.build -i ~/workspace/hu.dwim.environment/core/hu.dwim.development.core -e -s hu.dwim.home 14:07:35 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-243-237-24.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:04 and this is how I build that core file: /home/levy/hu.dwim.build -d -s hu.dwim 14:08:23 *kami-* checks the command line options 14:08:44 so the my steps are the following: 1. build the build tool 2. build the hu.dwim.development.core file 3. build hu.dwim.home based on that core 14:09:27 this way rebuilding is somewhat faster, and I used to start slime with the hu.dwim.development.core by default 14:09:37 but sometimes I build a development core for hu.dwim.wui 14:09:42 so I can develop that one 14:10:03 So how does the Clojure cond work if you want to do more than one thing in a branch? 14:10:32 clojure has 154 people dying to help you out... 14:10:36 #clojure, that is 14:11:18 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:11:21 levy_: shouldn't it be hu.dwim.WUI.development.core ? 14:11:49 gigamonkey: but generally it's that only one thing should be done. if you do 2, then one of them only does side-effects, and for that you have do 14:12:10 -!- _jason5907 [n=thot@59-105-27-43.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has quit [] 14:12:10 and i dislike clojure style cond with passion 14:12:55 because conditions are separated from the associated code. and it always drives me nuts to intdent the cond body nicely. 14:13:04 kami-, with capital letters? no 14:13:18 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.168.65] has joined #lisp 14:13:28 sounds a lot like Arc's if 14:13:31 kami-, there's a bug in SBCL that prevents the build tool to work correctly 14:13:35 jdz: where do is essentialy progn? Yeah. That seems gooofy to me. (Which is why I hang out here instead of #clojure, I guess.) 14:13:51 that is SBCL running another SBCL has some issues with typing into the debugger 14:13:51 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.169.85.135] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:14:08 to workaround that it writes a file into /tmp/hu.dwim.build.sh that is run as the build 14:14:22 so you can run it yourself and use the debugger 14:14:25 adityo [n=adityo@122.169.85.135] has joined #lisp 14:14:26 during build 14:14:48 gigamonkey: i actually had an idea to write a clcond macro the other day. haven't got to it, yet. 14:15:54 *gigamonkey* finds himself using COND a lot more than IF these days, even for things that could be written with IF. 14:16:29 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:18:01 -!- jlf [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:18:59 well, it's really only a couple of extra brackets in that case :) 14:21:53 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-243-237-24.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 14:21:56 levy_: hu.dwim.perec/source/dimensional/coordinate.lisp has a wrong in-package in it 14:22:00 rsynnott: right. So I've started to get in the habit of just always using COND so I don't have to switch from IF to COND when I want to add, say, a bit of FORMAT debugging in one clause or whatever. 14:22:37 what do people think of COND forms that don't have a T clause? 14:23:03 I didn't know that was something to have an opinion about 14:23:23 is it considered bad style? 14:23:32 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has joined #lisp 14:23:41 Hun [n=hun@80.153.55.38] has joined #lisp 14:23:44 Adlai: depends whether the other clauses match all possible cases. 14:23:58 If they do, including a T clause would be, IMO, bad style. 14:24:10 Quick question, I hope: I'm trying to use the MOP to do the following: given an object which is an instance of some class and a slot that's an instance of one of the class's direct slots, set the value of the slot on the object to something. I can read slots using slot-definition-readers, but slot-definition-writers might contain (setf foo)... Is there a "proper" way to do this? 14:24:16 If they don't, you may want to include one, even if it just contains (error "What?!") 14:24:17 gigamonkey: you mean whether the other clauses are intended to match all possible cases? 14:24:30 hello lispers 14:24:34 dlowe: yes. 14:24:48 gigamonkey: ah, that's true -- I guess I should use econd in that case 14:24:49 kami-, coordinate.lisp? 14:24:53 Adlai: I think it's clearer to have T as the last clause instead of a redundant test. 14:24:55 -!- HET2 [n=diman@131.251.176.98] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:25:08 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-1-105.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:25:09 Adlai: I omit T as the last clause all the time. It's never bothered me 14:25:11 there's an econd? 14:25:24 jsnell: maybe? maybe not... wouldn't it be the equivalent of ecase? 14:25:26 there isn't. Not a bad idea to have one, though 14:25:27 clhs econd 14:25:27 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for econd. 14:25:33 *Adlai* sad 14:25:35 I hope it'll get into alexandria once nikodemus finds time to devote to it 14:25:36 tcr, memo from attila_lendvai: thanks for the eval-when commit in sbcl-exts. further thinking, i think swank-require should be a macro expanding to this by default... no? 14:25:40 *Adlai* sadlai 14:26:00 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:06 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:26:26 kami-, I guess ati pulled the patches from the old repos 14:26:30 rswarbrick: I'm not sure I understand your question 14:26:30 bah cl-perec everywhere 14:26:34 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 14:26:50 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:26:51 kami-, moment 14:27:00 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:27:32 kami-, done 14:27:41 Adlai: (defmacro econd (&body clauses) `(cond ,@clauses (t (error "No condition matched.")))) Ta-da! 14:27:48 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@121.184.15.12] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:27:58 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:27:59 Don't be sad, this is Lisp. 14:28:20 jsnell: If, by pure chance, you have some time later today, could I ask you to look at my sb-introspect:function-type patch I submitted a few weeks (months?) ago? It just returns a function's ftype. 14:28:57 Adlai: Er, sorry. I'd like to use a slot, object and "new value" to write "new value" to the "slot" slot on "object". If it makes it any clearer, http://paste.lisp.org/display/87712 doesn't work, but it should be obvious what it's supposed to do. 14:29:00 gigamonkey: true 14:29:10 tcr: sure, I'll try to remember tomorrow 14:29:45 *Xach* finds javamonkey.com somewhat out of date 14:29:47 And I'll try to prod you again :) 14:29:51 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:29:58 It seems that the problem is, (car writers) might be something like (setf foo), which obviously you can't apply funcall to... 14:30:33 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-18.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 14:31:01 (funcall (fdefinition '(setf foo)) 14:31:12 Ah! 14:31:13 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:31:45 Is that guaranteed to work for anything that could be in SLOT-DEFINITION-WRITERS? 14:32:38 rswarbrick: basically, because slot-definition-writers would only have symbols and setf function designators 14:33:15 -!- sunwukong [n=vukung@business-80-99-161-225.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["bye"] 14:33:29 Thank you for the explanation! 14:33:32 Oh, and a related question: Why are multiple readers/writers for a slot supported? I mean, if I write code that checks for a non-nil list and then uses the car, might I miss something important? 14:34:02 Is it something to do with inheriting readers from a superclass or something? 14:34:03 yes, you might 14:34:15 c|mell [n=cmell@121.184.15.12] has joined #lisp 14:34:21 rswarbrick: For example, to retain backwards compatibility after you having decided to rename an accessor 14:34:22 slot-definition-writers is not a list of function designators. it's a list of function names 14:34:22 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.169.85.135] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:34:28 well, there might be multiple readers/writers that have different methods in each 14:34:42 tcr: Ah, that makes sense. 14:35:16 jsnell: Ok, I understand. It just happens to be the case that funcall on a symbol calls the function named by that symbol, right? 14:35:47 that's an important distinction since some function designators wouldn't work with fdefinition (which accepts names) 14:36:24 Ahah. Yes, that makes sense. Hey, it looks like the people who wrote the MOP thought quite hard about it or something :-P 14:36:38 jsnell: ah, "function designators" includes actual function objects too, right? 14:36:51 yes, and *doesn't* include non-symbol function names 14:37:20 that too. 14:37:40 Adlai: Er, maybe I'm being dense here. Can you suggest a way that it might matter? I mean, surely any element of slot-definition-readers should be the name of a function that takes an instance of a class and returns the relevant slot value? So can it matter if I use the "wrong one"? 14:38:32 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has joined #lisp 14:38:48 rswarbrick: to expand upon tcr's example -- if there was one accessor for backwards-compatibility that behaved in a backwards-compatible way, and another one that behaved differently, then you might end up using a deprecated accessor if it was first in the list. 14:39:19 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 14:39:23 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 14:39:41 Xach: that logo looks like a canadian queen. 14:39:45 Ah, I see. I take it that there's not really any way to guard against doing this accidentally? Unless you have the code of the class with two accessors in advance? 14:40:00 BLM Wednesday 30th 2009 6pm @ NEU WVG 108 (!) - Christine Flood on Fortress http://fare.livejournal.com/147676.html 14:40:39 well, you could check the length of the list, and throw an error (with appropriate restarts available) if there are multiple readers 14:40:40 is there a reason you're going through the readers and writers, and not working with slot-values? 14:41:15 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:28 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:41:53 jsnell: I think it's a reasonable thing to do if you want to cooperate with whatever behavior might be present in the accessors (logging, database updating, etc) 14:42:07 Xach: hmmm. yeah. (javamonkey.com) 14:42:24 jsnell: I think so :-) Basically, I'm writing code that draws an html data table from the object-oriented clsql interface. So you have a column per direct slot. 14:42:36 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.193.197] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 14:42:52 Why on earth were you looking at that? 14:42:54 gigamonkey: your previous incarnation? 14:43:00 Adlai: yeah. 14:43:08 gigamonkey: i was trying to make a motivational poster, and the google image search results for "peter seibel" are interesting. 14:43:21 Uh oh. 14:43:28 Anyhoo, thanks for all the help! I understand stuff much better now. 14:43:32 lemonodor is the culprit 14:43:36 gigamonkey: haha, you called a library you wrote "Macaca" 14:43:51 levy_: and in dmm's .asd, cl-graph is missing (there are many others which are used in package.lisp, but not mentioned in .asd) 14:43:59 I guess it's good news that the first image is of a naked lady. 14:44:07 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-3-170.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:13 -!- Guest16261 is now known as pragma_ 14:44:43 -!- pragma_ is now known as Guest56208 14:44:50 Adlai: yeah, that was back in the day before that word had taken on such political connatations. 14:44:56 connotations, even. 14:45:10 -!- Guest56208 is now known as pragma_ 14:45:43 I wasn't aware of those, I just think it's a funny name (even for an animal) 14:45:58 vsync [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 14:46:04 kami-, hmm, most of those packages are not needed anymore, so I should remove them 14:46:15 this is due to splitting the old dwim repo into ... 14:46:15 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 14:46:20 greetings! 14:48:43 anon_ [n=anon@ip56583baa.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lisp 14:52:35 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.239.93] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:52:38 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 14:52:51 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 14:53:02 HET2 [n=diman@80.3.31.126] has joined #lisp 14:54:51 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 14:54:59 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.131] has quit ["off"] 14:58:40 -!- blandest [n=user@85.204.33.242] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:59:45 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:54 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Verlassend"] 14:59:58 dysinger [n=dysinger@75-94-4-238.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:06 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-100-24.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 15:00:14 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:40 -!- vsync [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:00:46 p0a [n=user@athedsl-379228.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:01:41 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:01:59 Greetings, fusss. 15:02:01 Hello I want to define specific behavior for (let ((foo (make-instance 'foo))) (setf (foo-bar foo) value), with (foo-bar :initarg :accessor etc) 15:02:12 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 15:02:14 varjagg [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 15:02:34 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest15946 15:02:35 Can this be done inside CLOS or do I have to write my own place for SETF? (in which case, can anyone remind me how this is done or point me to some link?) 15:02:43 gigamonkey: do you have stats on coders shipping to australia? 15:02:49 p0a: you can do it! 15:02:53 i was at the bookshop earlier and didn't see it 15:03:01 fusss: it hasn't made it to san francisco yet 15:03:12 Xach: oh, nice to know :-P 15:03:17 p0a: you just need to define your own method: 15:03:20 p0a: (defclass foo (...) (... (bar ... :accessor foo-bar)) 15:03:26 fusss: it will probably hop on a steamer from there... 15:03:31 Xach: how? 15:03:44 p0a: (defmethod (setf foo-bar) (new-value (self foo)) ... (setf (slot-value self 'bar) new-value) ... new-value) 15:03:45 vsync [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 15:03:50 Adlai: I do have that already 15:03:54 -!- Guest15946 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 15:04:02 matimago: thanks! 15:04:16 You can also add parameters to (setf foo-bar) if needed. 15:04:20 p0a: oh, I see, you want to specialize the behavior 15:04:24 And if I recall correctly this was in the gigamonkey chapter too... I read it some days ago, seems I need to read those chapters again 15:04:27 Adlai: yep 15:04:42 yeah, what matimago suggests is correct -- you want to define methods on the generic function (setf foo-bar) 15:04:52 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:12 -!- prxq [n=mommer@e179203072.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:06:15 dalkvist_ [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 15:06:33 Hmm, btw I think it's a bug that emacs colors the parenthesis too as if it's part of the symbol name in (setf foo). (the actual feature is to color 'foo' in the same color with 'setf', in the sense that they're a single name) 15:07:29 g2g thanks for your help 15:07:30 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-379228.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 15:07:35 -!- amaron [n=amaron@93.86.161.198] has quit ["leaving"] 15:07:42 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:07:43 the name of the function is (setf foo), not set foo 15:08:12 Indeed, it colorizes the closing parenthesis... 15:08:42 err, "not setf foo" 15:08:50 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:09:05 Then it should colorize the opening parenthesis too. 15:10:46 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 15:10:49 sure, coloring just one paren is the worst possible option :-) 15:11:00 Axioplas1_ [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 15:13:01 fusss: I have very little understanding of the physical movement of Coders around the world. 15:13:20 -!- salva [n=salva@47.Red-81-41-170.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:13:20 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 15:13:30 As far as I can tell B&N has received it from Apress but seem unable to actually get it into their stores. 15:13:34 -!- HET2 [n=diman@80.3.31.126] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:13:35 ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 15:13:52 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:57 And Amazon changes the status every few hours from In Stock to available on to Usually ships in 1 to 3 weeks. 15:14:14 More details available, on request, in #c@w 15:14:34 gigamonkey: I used to reshelf PCL when I was in the U.S. and always placed it across at full-cover view :-P 15:14:48 Excellent! 15:15:07 *gigamonkey* approves of grassroots "fronting" 15:15:35 p0a [n=user@athedsl-379228.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:16:02 It seems I left too early. I tried to read the documentation of DEFMETHOD on clhs because someone mentioned this is possible, but I did not understand the document 15:16:54 I did manage to get this to work, but now I want to do something like (setf (my-gethash key hash-table) value) 15:17:34 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-379228.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Client Quit] 15:17:53 levy_: where are the user/* files loaded in hu.dwim.environment? 15:18:10 minion: memo for p0a: by putting :accessor in the defclass, you've already created a primary method specialized on the class. Thus, you either need to specialize the method on a subclass, or define a :before, :after, or :around method 15:18:10 Remembered. I'll tell p0a when he/she/it next speaks. 15:18:38 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has quit ["100 days are gone..."] 15:19:09 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:19:36 -!- Axioplase_ [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:20:01 -!- vsync [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [No route to host] 15:20:02 -!- dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:21:26 -!- glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has left #lisp 15:21:27 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:21:45 levy_: heh. I loaded your init file and now I'm caught in a moccur buffer 15:22:09 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-20-146.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:22:26 kami-, they are linked in our .emacs.d 15:22:36 -!- varjagg [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:22:37 I wonder if one can configure OSX to not randomly spam a particular network with e.g. ipv6 router solicitations? 15:22:48 now the user files load the common files, and not the opposite 15:23:07 levy_: OK. Thanks. 15:24:09 lukego: OT: if you ever lived in Sydney, feel free to shoot me pointers on where to hang out with other programmers (i.e. people who aren't banking or finance monkeys at CBD) 15:25:17 fusss: haven't. maybe make friends with people at google? 15:25:32 p0a [n=user@athedsl-379228.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:25:46 I know a few of them, they hosted the last LUG meeting 15:26:00 Hello again, I'm still interested for the answer of how should I make a DEFMETHOD like the GETHASH one (setf (my-gethash key hash-table) value). 15:26:00 p0a, memo from Adlai: by putting :accessor in the defclass, you've already created a primary method specialized on the class. Thus, you either need to specialize the method on a subclass, or define a :before, :after, or :around method 15:26:17 mostly marketing types though 15:26:22 Yes! thanks 15:26:31 I think there're functional programming types at UNSW 15:26:54 Alain Picard is a Lisp hacker in sydney. I had an excellent Malaysian dinner with him there a few months ago 15:27:26 Nice, at least a name I recognize 15:27:42 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@LAubervilliers-151-11-16-232.w193-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 15:28:02 I live in the Western suburbs, between Croydon and Ashfield 15:28:15 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:28:24 Actually, reading about :before and :after I don't see how these would help me do tihs 15:28:26 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:28:39 after all, I remember reading that these three keywords are merely a convenience 15:29:23 lukego: to be fair though, the non-programmers have been great. I have been indoctrinated to drink VB and root for St. George 15:29:34 where are you from? 15:29:42 I am Arab American 15:29:51 I'm trying to write a (setf (foo x y) z). Can this be done with DEFMETHOD (assuming 'x' is of some class), or should I define my own SETF place? In which case, how do I do this? 15:29:55 african born, but USian mostly 15:30:41 (defmethod (setf foo) (value (x class) (y class)) ...) 15:30:44 in sydney for a long time? 15:30:45 Taggnostr [n=x@86.50.68.11] has joined #lisp 15:30:57 p0a: you should start with (defgeneric (setf foo) (z x y)), then write th egenerics. 15:31:03 * then write the methods 15:31:28 lukego: marrying an Aussie girl 15:31:29 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:31:32 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:31:38 this is pretty much home now 15:32:26 clhs ensure-generic-function 15:32:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ensure.htm 15:32:50 a little more clear than an empty defgeneric 15:33:00 milanj [n=milan@93.87.248.69] has joined #lisp 15:33:13 lukego: i have only been here 3 months so far though 15:33:40 dlowe: really? i've never seen or used e-g-f, but use an "empty" defgeneric all the time. 15:33:49 (it's not empty, it has documentation) 15:34:21 fusss: I'm not very well connected with the tech scene in .au. if you tell me your email address I'll let you know if I think of anything 15:34:42 Xach: I found it while reading PAIP 15:34:51 last night, in fact 15:36:59 gigamonkey: I much prefer cond these days, and find myself rewriting if and occasionally when/unless into cond. 15:37:02 KingNato [n=patno@84-217-1-179.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:19 Jiaji [n=Jiaji@121.77.158.248] has joined #lisp 15:37:29 -!- younder [n=jthing@251.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 15:37:58 of course, your ide probably has a one-click "convert to cond", right? 15:40:07 when I pass a &rest parameter to another funcation that takes a &rest parameter, I have to use apply, is that right? 15:40:51 right 15:40:55 ejs [n=eugen@131-3-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:22 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp043.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Success] 15:41:47 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-33-92-164.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:41:53 but I saw many functions in Emacs source code just passing it directly 15:42:26 xach: er, well the fingers kind of know the drill. No emacs macro for that yet. 15:42:33 -!- KingNato [n=patno@84-217-1-179.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [] 15:43:08 Xach: just like recommended in PCL, right? 15:43:29 Adlai: yyyyyes? i don't remember what pcl says. 15:43:38 defgeneric for documentation 15:43:39 but if pcl says it, i believe it, that settles it. 15:44:30 levy_: It's a pity that build-sbcl-command-line is defined with flet. I would like to add my own image to the slime-lisp-implementations. May I refactor it into a function? 15:45:03 Jiaji: this channel isn't about Emacs lisp, but this applies to elisp too 15:45:44 xach: you are an 'if' kind of guy? 15:45:54 wgl: i sometimes start with it, but rarely finish with it 15:46:11 stassats: OK, I see 15:48:27 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 15:48:32 -!- coderdad_ [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:50:16 -!- ole3 [n=user@62.96.71.236] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:50:53 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:51:42 kami-, sure, why not 15:52:00 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:15 younder [n=jthing@84.202.13.251] has joined #lisp 15:53:03 -!- Jiaji [n=Jiaji@121.77.158.248] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 15:55:22 newlisper [n=wschroed@128.252.233.244] has joined #lisp 15:58:02 Adlai: thanks 15:58:03 gz_ [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:58:38 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:16 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:59:25 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:55 sandin [i=lalalal@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:00 -!- sandin [i=lalalal@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has left #lisp 16:03:06 Adlai: I wrote the DEFGENERIC. How do I write the DEFMETHOD arguments? 16:03:18 sandin [i=lalalal@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:20 I'm sure it's something obivous if you think the lisp way but I'm unable to do that and CLHS isn't very clear 16:03:22 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 16:03:24 p0a: the argument order is the same as that in defgeneric 16:03:39 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:03:43 if you want to specialize an argument on a certain class, then instead of just the name, you put (name class) 16:03:57 p0a: I recommend the relevant chapters in PCL. 16:04:14 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:26 (or the hyperspec, if you're comfortable reading documentation) 16:04:29 clhs defmethod 16:04:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defmet.htm 16:04:59 tcr: actually PCL doesn't mention this 16:05:06 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:05:09 (unless I'm mistaken) 16:05:18 What exactly is this? 16:05:22 "this" 16:05:37 p0a: 16:06:14 Xof: that doesn't even mention (defmethod (setf ...) 16:06:20 p0a: more specifically, go about 1/3 of the way down the page Xach linked, and it discusses #defmethod there. 16:06:39 (defmethod (setf ...) is no different from (defmethod anything-else 16:06:56 s/ach/of/ 16:07:17 Xof: But it has an additional argument, the new-value 16:07:17 *Adlai* mutters to himself, Xach, Xof, X11... same thing, starts with an X. 16:07:28 [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.82.48] has joined #lisp 16:07:30 Which argument is that? Is it the CAR of the list? 16:07:32 p0a: yes, the new value goes at the start of the argument list 16:07:47 Then I'm troubled by the results of my code 16:07:51 at least I"m certain about this so I'll try again 16:08:50 I get this error 16:08:51 http://paste.lisp.org/display/87717 16:09:29 newlisper pasted "eval-with-environment" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87718 16:09:37 anyone know of a semi-popular CL messaging API? something for sending a "message", receiving it, queueing it, etc. it's fairly trivial to roll out one's own, but i prefer to be compatible with *something*. 16:09:38 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:57 with this code: (defgeneric (setf foo) (x y &optional z)) (defmethod (setf foo) (new-value x y &optional z) (list new-value x y z)) 16:10:03 fusss: sending messages where? 16:10:24 your defgeneric needs to be the same as the method 16:10:33 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:10:33 (defgeneric (setf foo) (new-value x y &optional z)) 16:10:34 internally or across to multiple nodes in a "distributed system" 16:10:38 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:43 Xof: Thanks, you are right. this makes sense 16:11:14 fusss: I have been meaning to play with the package that emulates erlang-style message-passing and process creation. It is on cliki; I forget the name of it. 16:11:27 By the way, how can I re-evaluate a defgeneric? ie how can I erase the previous definition? 16:11:32 and replace it with a new one? 16:11:53 p0a: fire up the inspector and delete the specific method or the entire GF 16:11:59 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:11:59 p0a: just re-evaluate it 16:12:17 Regarding my paste, is there a better way to evaluate with an environment in CL? 16:12:30 p0a: programatically, REMOVE-METHOD 16:12:50 Adlai: C-c C-c gives me an error, if you're familiar with keymacs bindings 16:12:52 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:32 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:13:35 sensible implementations provide a restart to delete previous methods 16:13:37 p0a: there should be a restart available that does what you want 16:13:38 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:47 frontiers [n=frontier@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:00 p0a: play around with ADD-METHOD, FIND-METHOD and REMOVE-METHOD to get a feel for the methods 16:15:01 Adlai: there shouldn't be 16:15:08 Adlai: That's weird, I restarted slime and C-c C-c works with no restarts 16:15:44 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:15:52 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:19 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@121.184.15.12] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:16:29 stassats: what do you mean? 16:16:39 c|mell [n=cmell@121.184.15.12] has joined #lisp 16:16:44 phf [n=user@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 16:16:51 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:17:25 Adlai: I think he means a conforming implementation has no reason to reject two consecutive DEFGENERICs 16:17:29 fusss: I'd read some blog posts about cl-mpi recently: http://code.google.com/p/cl-mpi/ 16:17:38 Adlai: that your statement isn't correct 16:17:43 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:18:12 i said about sensible implementations, but not all implementations are sensible enough 16:18:16 serichse1 [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06cf9b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:52 ryepup: MPI "messages" are very lowlevel but the API is well known. I was hoping to pass around lisp objects in an envelope of sorts, kinda like RabbitMQ 16:19:00 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:19:07 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-220-175.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:19:18 stassats: I meant "should be" in that sense -- ie, that an implementation/IDE should provide it 16:19:25 but yes, I see what you mean :) 16:19:32 Davidbrcz [n=david@212.198.78.230] has joined #lisp 16:19:42 I have a messaging 'solution' so far and it's just a database table; a message has sender, recipient, timestamp and status. the "scheduler" just returns :unread messages so far. 16:19:48 "may be" 16:20:05 fusss: if you're on lispworks you can use rabbitmq and cl-rabbit: http://www.nicklevine.org/cl-rabbit/ 16:20:51 ryepup: perfect! I am on LW but I will just clone the API for my own uses. 16:20:52 -!- levy_ [n=levy@apn-89-223-170-93.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:20:53 thanks 16:21:31 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@77.6.207.155] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:21:32 fusss: maybe not perfect. That talks to rabbitmq using the java rabbitmq client and a FFI 16:21:33 Cut-R [n=X6T@91.180.188.110] has joined #lisp 16:21:33 -!- rswarbrick [n=user@cpc2-cove3-0-0-cust910.sol2.cable.ntl.com] has left #lisp 16:21:39 -!- Cut-R changed the topic of #lisp to: BANDES DE PEDOPHILES VIOLEURS MANIPULATEURS MENTEURS FILS DE PUTES ENCULÉS TROUS DU CUL MAGOUILLEURS ABUSEURS D'ENFANTS !!! 16:21:42 -!- Cut-R [n=X6T@91.180.188.110] has left #lisp 16:21:44 loxs[] [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:59 -!- fusss changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp 16:21:59 that was interesting 16:22:31 -!- Krystof changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: ABCL 0.16.0, SBCL 1.0.31, Osicat 0.6.0, CFFI 0.10.5, trivial-features 0.5, Hunchentoot & Drakma 1.0.0, usocket 0.4.1, yason-0.1, series 2.2.10, CMUCL 19f. 16:23:02 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:23:07 Yay my irc-client has this highlight-changes-in-topic feature which just produced excellent fruit salad 16:23:35 is everybody able to change the topic? 16:23:49 yes 16:23:50 Adlai: yes. 16:24:01 it works acceptably well 16:24:18 I guess it works as long as there's somebody around to restore sanity every now and then... 16:24:20 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:24:26 ryepup: RabbitMQ just implements AMQP 16:25:12 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-95-53-188-179.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 16:25:14 the NewLisp insurgency will never rest 16:25:16 Had to be a belgian who called lispers pedophiles (: 16:25:40 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has quit [] 16:25:43 pkhuong: can you pick out the french dialect in writing? 16:26:04 fusss: you can see his IP address in /whois 16:26:20 oh 16:27:07 I try to use SETF now but I get this new error: http://paste.lisp.org/display/87719 16:27:30 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit ["bye bye"] 16:27:44 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-3-170.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:27:47 well, error message says it all 16:27:53 Geralt [n=Geralt@91.50.227.145] has joined #lisp 16:27:56 lisppaste: url for p0a 16:28:04 lisppaste: url? 16:28:04 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 16:28:13 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:15 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:28:16 p0a: use that URL, or mark your paste as going to #lisp 16:29:16 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@75-94-4-238.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:29:44 Adlai: okay but I think this time it's pointless to do so, right? 16:29:51 p0a: no. 16:29:56 okay 16:30:22 anonymous pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87721 16:30:36 p0a: how did you specialize the methods yo udefined? 16:30:55 that was pointless 16:31:07 ... 16:31:20 p0a: I think you and Xach misunderstood eachother a bit :) 16:31:35 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:35 ah 16:31:52 this is why we should all be speaking Lojban 16:31:56 or so say those who speak Lojban 16:32:05 is there a portable implementation of something like CLISP's ext:fcase? I suspect there might be in one of the utility libraries, but I haven't found any 16:32:16 arbscht: what does ext:fcase do? 16:32:18 arbscht: what does it do? 16:32:37 it's like case, but you get to specify the test function 16:32:43 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.85.79] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:32:51 http://clisp.cons.org/impnotes/fcase.html 16:32:52 Adlai: if lojban doesn't allow you to be ambiguous it sounds like the language is crippled 16:32:53 arbscht: ok, you can implement that portably on top of COND 16:33:04 Xach: a case with custom :test 16:33:17 I wonder where the "F" comes from. 16:33:31 "fun case" 16:33:32 Adlai: (defmethod (setf ...) (new-val x y &optional z) ...) 16:33:39 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.200.176] has joined #lisp 16:33:48 and (defgeneric (setf ...) (new-val x y &optional z)) 16:33:56 p0a: gee, if only there were some way to paste that code 16:33:58 Adlai: sure, but I might prefer not to reinvent that wheel :) 16:33:59 same as in FSet 16:34:03 p0a: that way we could all see it! 16:34:21 Oops -- I meant (defmentod (setf ...) (new-val x (y class-name) &optional z)) 16:34:31 Xach: I'm sorry but I can't post my code here 16:34:36 I am also sorry. 16:34:50 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 16:34:54 Trade secrets? 16:35:12 yeah I don't want you to reach tah level of enlightment 16:35:18 luckily that means we don't have to help you 16:35:23 I don't want to have any competition 16:35:32 because this channel's charter is for Free Software development 16:35:48 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:36:02 This is personal software development which I plan to release anonymously and what's your problem man? ;-P 16:36:10 alexandria:switch? 16:36:18 p0a: you could extract the relevant bits, change the names, and post it 16:36:24 Okay fine I'll do that 16:36:59 Xof: this network even. 16:37:01 -!- [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.82.48] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:37:03 indeed 16:37:24 imo, you should just post the code... people are usually pretty busy with their own projects, or they spend too much time on IRC, to steal your projects away from you 16:37:27 With the appropriate license, are we then compelled to help? 16:38:20 no, we're allowed to at that point 16:38:29 until then all we can do is point and laugh 16:38:51 Adlai: While changing the names I found the bug 16:39:32 The DEFGENERIC and DEFMETHOD were different in their specialization 16:39:39 c|mell: that looks promising, thanks! 16:39:49 p0a: you shouldn't be specializing stuff in a defgeneric 16:39:56 ryepup: this looks like the best of the breed http://www.zeromq.org/start 16:39:58 (unless you're using :method, but I doubt that) 16:40:10 *Xach* uses :method fairly often 16:40:25 ruepel0r [n=rue@77-21-138-135-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:40:29 p0a: :method, fyi, is a way to inline method definitions into the defgeneric form 16:41:08 I want to write a foo-test system which is only loaded when asdf:test-op is executed. Is it reasonable to have multiple system definitions in the same .asd file? 16:41:38 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-3-170.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:38 Cffi defines it in a separate file. 16:41:38 tcr: yes 16:41:46 timor1 [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:42:00 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-2-218.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:42:28 -!- timor1 [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #lisp 16:43:06 Fare [n=Fare@63.107.91.99] has joined #lisp 16:43:33 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has quit ["Valete!"] 16:43:50 So why does cffi use a separate file if it's kosher? 16:44:57 kosher and tasty are different things? (One is subject to the ratification of the local board of jewry, and one is more subjective :-) 16:46:11 I fail to see the aesthetics on requiring your users to create two symlinks instead of one... :) 16:46:20 Xof: sometimes they're opposite 16:46:34 tcr: your users never need to know about the test suite 16:46:57 Xof: I'd want my users to run the test suite if they have access to a platform that I don't 16:47:15 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit ["bye bye"] 16:47:26 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:39 They should for it's beautifully written! 16:49:15 Adlai: so it doesn't need to be specialized! you're right 16:50:25 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:50:29 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:09 tcr: having the asdf:defsystem for your test suite (and more) in the same .asd is also nice because it means that the list of available systems only has one entry per system, until you load a system, and then you see test suites, examples, etc 16:51:17 it's like organizing files into directories 16:51:17 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:51:40 How can this return nil? 16:51:40 (print (- (length (get-possible-moves player gs)) (length (get-possible-moves (get-opponent players player) gs)))) 16:51:53 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:53:06 Retardedpope: if your Lisp is broken? 16:53:27 Adlai: that's what I'm thinking... 16:53:37 maybe the error is elsewhere? 16:53:37 It should not be able to return nil 16:53:42 did you redefine print ? 16:53:49 no 16:54:01 levy_ [n=levy@apn-89-223-133-137.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 16:54:16 [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.82.48] has joined #lisp 16:54:52 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:54:58 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:01 it returns nil with or without the print 16:55:23 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:55:27 #'- is returning nil? have you tested it at th erepl? 16:55:30 the print is just there, because I couldn't believe that it would return nil 16:55:56 erepl? 16:56:05 "the repl" 16:56:08 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:08 Retardedpope: How do you know it returns nil? 16:56:11 (let ((*print-base* 36)) (print 30477)) 16:56:18 => NIL 16:56:28 not bad 16:56:28 heh 16:56:52 stassats: I think you also want to downcase, though 16:57:06 How can this return nil? [19:51:39] 16:57:28 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:57:30 Adlai: i don't want, really 16:57:55 beach: because I'm printing what it's returning 16:58:35 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:59:03 Retardedpope: are there any other print statements? 16:59:08 can a fixnum be boxed? 17:00:08 abcl boxes its fixnums 17:00:11 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:00:38 stassats: how about sbcl? 17:01:33 Adlai: there are, but I'm printing the name of the function right before I print the return value... 17:01:44 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:46 sbcl doesn't box them 17:01:59 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@121.184.15.12] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:02:08 well, you easily can check with DISASSEMBLE 17:02:10 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:19 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:02:23 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:24 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:02:32 Retardedpope: I highly doubt that #'- is returning (), the problem is probably elsewhere 17:02:33 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:02:42 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:25 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has joined #lisp 17:03:40 stassats: (loop for i of-type fixnum .. seems to create boxed stuff. Yeah dissasembly would tell me. 17:03:57 Adlai: everything tells me that it is... 17:04:17 Retardedpope: have you tried it at THE REPL? 17:04:33 don't know what the repl is... 17:04:47 read-eval-print-loop 17:05:21 http://gigamonkeys.com/book/lather-rinse-repeat-a-tour-of-the-repl.html <- REPL 17:05:23 Retardedpope: You said it returns nil even when not printed. How do you know that? 17:05:24 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:05:34 lhz: then it'd be a bignum 17:05:37 Retardedpope: it's the "shell" where you can evaluate Lisp forms 17:05:50 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@95.85.147.143] has joined #lisp 17:05:58 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@95.85.147.143] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:05:58 it's similar to (but better than) irb and the Python equivalent (whatever it's called) 17:06:10 it may box because fixnum is easily turned into bignum 17:06:27 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:06:40 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:07:23 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:26 beach: the program craches 17:08:11 Retardedpope: how are you running this code? surely you can get a repl somewhere, extract the relevant bits, and test interactively. 17:08:12 bb 17:08:17 -!- levy_ [n=levy@apn-89-223-133-137.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 17:08:24 print statements are great but they're no substitute for interactive development 17:09:10 Retardedpope: I am afraid I don't see how the fact that the program crashes implies that that expression returns nil. 17:09:10 I'm on Ubuntu using GNU CLISP 2.44.1 17:09:26 stassats: loop seem to use the same place throughout its iterations, and I thought fixnum couldn't be a place? 17:09:35 beach: *** - MIN: NIL is not a real number 17:09:54 I only use min at one place in my code 17:10:12 lhz: no number is a place. 17:10:28 lhz: Places are not values but things that hold values. 17:10:41 Retardedpope: how do you run your code? If you're using SLIME, you can try M-x slime-repl 17:10:52 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:27 Retardedpope: There was no MIN in your code. 17:11:31 beach: se my loop example above. 'I' seem to be a place. 17:11:32 Adlai: I'm on Ubuntu using GNU CLISP 2.44.1 17:11:32 clisp file.lisp 17:11:42 minion: slime for Retardedpope 17:11:48 slime: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 17:11:49 beach: the min is later 17:11:50 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:12:12 lhz: The fact that the place has been declared to hold only fixnums doesn't change anything. 17:12:12 Retardedpope: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/ 17:12:24 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-379228.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 17:12:24 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:44 Retardedpope: So the NIL can be the result of some expression other than your subtraction. 17:12:46 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:13:06 beach: no it can't 17:13:21 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:21 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:13:25 Retardedpope: the real bug here is that CLISP deserves better than to run in batch mode 17:13:42 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:42 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:13:56 Adlai: Newer versions of clisp are pretty much unusable with Slime 17:13:59 ryepup: read this and die a little inside. http://johnnycoder.com/blog/2007/06/20/whats-the-best-way-to-manage-a-database-queue/ 17:14:08 beach: it is a place holding a fixnum, that is my perception. Correct? 17:14:14 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:20 tcr: why? (I don't use clisp regularly) 17:14:22 lhz: correct. 17:14:36 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:14:37 Adlai: You gave the reason. 17:14:55 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:13 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:15:18 ok thanks.. I was then wrongly relying on that "of-type fixnum" would guarantee no place's. 17:15:36 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-170-201-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:15:53 tcr: you mean that not many people use clisp regularly, so nobody is keeping it all slimed up? 17:16:16 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:32 danlei [n=user@pD9E2D8D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:38 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:16:55 Intersection of people contributing to slime and people using clisp is fairly null 17:16:59 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:17:07 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:25 fusss: sheesh. I have one of those hanging around that changes transaction isolation level to accomplish the same effect in less code 17:17:40 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:18:03 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:13 fusss: I've been switching slowly to using rabbitmq, but old code with few users is low on the todo list 17:18:39 ryepup: mine is bleeding edge with thousands of users; anything helps 17:18:49 Adlai: Alternatively I run clisp and the do (load 'file.lisp) 17:18:49 tcr: I wonder why that is... I understand why somebody would prefer clisp over other lisps, but I don't understand why they wouldn't use slime 17:19:17 They would but they don't have the required knowledge to improve the situation 17:19:24 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:19:29 fusss: one of these days I'm going to stop daydreaming and write a pure lisp amqp client (using usocket and cxml to scrape the amqp spec). Another few months and I might have an actual business case to do so 17:19:33 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:33 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:19:43 for start, clisp should provide some programmatic interface to their backtraces 17:19:54 -!- newlisper [n=wschroed@128.252.233.244] has left #lisp 17:20:01 that's would improve the situation by some orders of magnitude 17:20:01 heh, true, the backtraces suck when I use clisp with slime 17:20:13 I thought that was part of their backtraces :) 17:20:39 the backtrace is a bit better for earlier versions of clisp as the swank backend parses the backtrace 17:20:48 fusss: the comments on that blog post hurt 17:21:22 ryepup: that's the first thing i read actually 17:21:24 Adlai: If you desire my recognition, hack clisp to provide such said interface. 17:22:28 *tcr* just got a spam message with the title "History of toilet paper" 17:23:17 hmm well that's a pretty necessary interface... I'm completely unfamiliar with clisp though 17:23:25 speaking of toilet paper 17:23:48 did you know that Sir Roger Penrose sued a toilet paper company once, claiming they stole one of his tilings to pattern their paper? 17:24:26 Being unfamiliar is nothing but a bad excuse. 17:24:42 true 17:25:20 You probably don't care. Or you don't want my recognition. Either way, hopefully you now see the reason behind status quo. 17:25:51 Hacking clisp is an amusing endeavor, though. 17:26:06 who wants your recognition? :P 17:26:30 we just want your slime hacks! 17:27:57 Highly sympathic 17:28:00 ryepup: I am gonna go with this one; fairly trivial memcached-inspired protocol :-) http://xph.us/software/beanstalkd/ 17:28:30 *Adlai* jokes, of course 17:28:52 -!- zeroish [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:29:11 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit ["bye bye"] 17:29:27 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:52 how do you get the "created time" of some file? 17:31:16 mishoo: FILE-WRITE-DATE 17:31:43 fusss: thanks 17:31:47 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:32:44 fusss, you old pro 17:32:55 :-D 17:33:29 how can you get the numeric value of a character? e.g. (mystery-function #\9) => 9? 17:33:34 Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has joined #lisp 17:33:39 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:33:40 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@95.85.147.143] has joined #lisp 17:33:52 ascii? 17:34:01 Xach: digit-char-p if it's a digit 17:34:20 yes! (that is one of my favorite questions) 17:34:46 Xach: why so? 17:35:00 mishoo: because few suspect that digit-char-p has such a useful return value 17:35:48 Xach: I actually needed it, so that's why I know :-) 17:35:57 i was gonna pull out an old assembly trick involving subtraction 17:35:59 (I only have like one month of Lisp so far) 17:36:22 Xach: if you knew, why did you ask? 17:36:39 Adlai: for an entertaining quiz 17:36:58 why do that over char-code? 17:37:13 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-3-170.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:37:27 proun: char-code gives you the code (usually ascii or utf8 or somesuch) but not the "value" 17:37:44 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@95.85.147.143] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:37:48 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-95-53-188-179.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 17:37:53 proun: it is not defined as reliable by the specification for the purpose 17:38:09 oh 17:38:15 proun: (- (char-code #\1) (char-code #\0)) need not be 1 17:38:57 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@ASt-Lambert-153-1-72-82.w83-204.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 17:38:57 Xach, it is in ASCII and EBCDIC -- do you intend to promote a rival encoding? 17:39:10 if you are, it might still be time for me to kill you. 17:39:26 baudot? 17:39:51 Fare: i mean only to mention a reason to prefer digit-char-p 17:40:13 (Though the specific example of #\1 and #\0 appears to hold for baudot as well.) 17:40:22 *Fare* adds a name in his black list... 17:41:09 -!- ejs [n=eugen@131-3-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:41:13 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:14 nyef, is anyone using baudot these days? 17:43:21 (I know people using EBCDIC) 17:43:26 I don't know. 17:43:27 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-17.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:39 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:44:01 I'm just reading the wikipedia article now, though what I've read thus far suggests that it has been well superceded. 17:44:14 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:23 Blay [i=Blay@89.142.47.166] has joined #lisp 17:46:32 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:46:52 Who uses EBCDIC? 17:47:27 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:48 Babel (and SBCL) users might! :-) 17:48:16 so i need to instantiate a bunch of objects in an array, ive just been using LOOP WHILE as i would in a c for-loop. is there a more lispy way? 17:48:17 hej luis! Why does cffi-test.asd come in a seperate .asd file? 17:48:35 luis: I just put everything in one for named-readtables 17:49:05 tcr: to be able to load the test system seperately 17:49:29 tcr: plenty of people with IBM mainframe applications that have evolved since the 1950s... 17:49:42 tcr: not sure, why not? 17:49:46 airlines, insurance companies, banks, etc. 17:49:55 luis: So users don't have to create to symlinks 17:49:57 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:59 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:50:01 s/to/two/ 17:50:04 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:31 tcr: ah. I've always outsourced symlink creation.:) 17:51:10 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.85.79] has joined #lisp 17:51:11 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:51:16 tcr: so what's the problem ? 17:51:22 creating one more symlink ? 17:51:24 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:34 Annoys me each time 17:51:40 are \r\n guaranteed to map to #\Return and #\Linefeed respectively? or do I have to write their char-codes out? 17:51:49 tcr: do you create your own symlinks? 17:51:50 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:51:59 fe[nl]ix: I forgot it the first time, then try to run test-op which will fail of course 17:52:03 luis: yeah 17:52:10 tcr: don't like clbuild? 17:52:27 tcr: ln -s $SRC/cffi/*.asd systems/ 17:52:29 easy 17:52:32 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:41 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:52:53 some projects put their .asd files in subdirectories. 17:53:35 bastards 17:53:42 I'm lookingat you fe[nl]ix. 17:53:45 tcr: ln -s $(find $SRC/cffi -type f -name *.asd) systems/ 17:54:04 Why should I have to deal with that? 17:54:21 I gave you argument and use case for putting in one .asd file, I'm eager to be educated why you prefer seperate files. 17:54:24 tcr: because you're not using clbuild? ;-) 17:54:54 Fare: interested in chatting about cross-thread condition handling? 17:54:59 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.85.79] has quit [Client Quit] 17:55:04 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-pyhotnnshwtsjbbj] has joined #lisp 17:55:58 luis: Even if I used clbuild, not everyone does. :) 17:55:59 tcr: because of a conceptual deficiency of ASDF, you can only directly load a system "foo" if there's a foo.asd 17:56:07 tcr: I don't like that (require :foo) shows :foo-test being loaded. But anyway, CFFI was already like that when I got there, and I've been been copying that way ever since. 17:56:32 sykopomp, uh, sure 17:56:47 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has quit ["Valete!"] 17:56:54 sykopomp, what makes you think I have something interesting to say about it? Apart from my being an opinionated twit, that is. 17:57:24 "I'm the most opinionated person there is. Ask me any question, I'll give you my opinion!" 17:57:43 Fare: you've worked on various concurrency things for CL, and you seem to have an active interest in that sort of stuff. 17:57:54 sure. 17:57:57 "Any clod can have the facts; having opinions is an art." 17:58:03 :D 17:58:06 I have my emas so that 2/3 of the screen is editing buffer and 1/3 is the repl. however, when I get thrown in the debugger, the screen is resized 50/50 and it never goes back to my previous setting after I leave the debugger. 17:58:43 fusss: Make yourself acquaint with winner-mode 17:59:00 Or simply try C-c 17:59:05 tcr: I like the Erlang model. If your child dies, you receive a die message, and if you're not ready to receive it, you die too (triggering something for your daddy, etc.). 17:59:16 Fare: So I've got this channel thing, and we're trying to figure out what the best way to provide cross-thread condition handling would be. Automatic signaling through linking as in erlang doesn't really work because they're not actors that are always listening in a particular place for messages 17:59:32 now if you're debugging, you have something that catches the condition and talks to the debugger 17:59:37 tcr: thanks a bunch 17:59:51 and Eager Future's error-on-future-yield may not work either.... although I may be wrong. 17:59:53 fusss: But I can't reproduce that behaviour 18:00:44 finally, there's the "I'm ready to receive it, but I'll handle it when I have time.", which is basically the unix model of waiting on processes. 18:00:45 actually, no, it's probably wrong because it forces channel readers to know too much about the thread (or threads!) dumping data on the other end. 18:01:04 fusss: Perhaps a good time to update Slime, and enjoying the pleasures of M-? :) 18:01:05 so you don't die, but you have a death notice in your mailbox 18:01:27 slime-2009-05-03, emacs-nox 21.4.1 over putty from win32 to linux 18:01:49 tcr: in a bit, i am in the middle of hacking a message queue client library 18:01:50 Fare: does erlang's linking model make it die the moment an exit signal is sent to it (even if it's in the middle of processing something)? 18:02:02 (then if you use user-level notions of atomicity, you can have this mailbox handling automatically happen at the next safe point) 18:02:21 loxs[away] [n=loxs@85.130.31.93] has joined #lisp 18:02:23 sykopomp: what do you care if your child dies but you're not doing any synchronisation? As far the process can observe, the death could happen at any time. That's why checking for errors during channel send/receive seems good enough to me. 18:02:27 fusss: Swank uses one internally 18:02:31 sykopomp, well if you are sharing any data, you have to wait for a safe point, anyway 18:02:41 true 18:02:50 pkhuong: and you're right. Polling is pretty much the plan now. 18:02:57 tcr: this one is a bit impressive http://xph.us/software/beanstalkd/ 18:02:58 it's just that in Erlang there's not sharing at all, so any point outside of a system call is safe. 18:03:06 fusss: With simple pattern matching so we can say (wait-for-event `(:foo (:bar . _)))) 18:03:07 I think the biggest question now is what kind of interface to do that sort of polling should be provided. 18:03:08 s/not/no/ 18:03:22 tcr: me WANT that! 18:03:38 sykopomp, I propose an interface in terms of user-level atomicity / transactions / whatever 18:03:41 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A6E1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:47 tcr: does it have restrictions on the message body/payload in terms of size or format? 18:03:47 -!- Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has left #lisp 18:03:59 ejs [n=eugen@95.135.70.67] has joined #lisp 18:04:25 then at the safe point, an condition may be raised, etc. 18:04:35 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:44 -!- sandin [i=lalalal@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit ["Cao..."] 18:04:53 fusss: Uh no idea. But I'm pretty sure there's some library which provides this too 18:05:06 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:05:42 tcr: in this case it's just cheaper to implement a small protocol for a very high performance and "industry standard" server 18:06:14 it's the memcached-wannabe of message queues; plain text protocol for a unix daemon that uses libevent for super fast multiplexed i/o 18:06:55 v0|d [n=user@213.232.33.243] has joined #lisp 18:07:29 in any case, when there IS state, you don't want to be interrupted in the middle of anywhere. 18:07:53 or the other state-sharers will be VERY disappointed. 18:08:13 loxs1234 [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:14 (other option: kill those state-sharers, too!) 18:08:14 -!- loxs1234 [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:08:24 -!- loxs[] [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:08:38 Could you help me with packages? when I use (defpackage chess (:use "COMMON-LISP" "ITERATE")) everything is ok, but when I try (defpackage chess (:use "COMMON-LISP" "ITERATE" "SPLIT-SEQUENCE")) I got error The name "SPLIT-SEQUENCE" does not designate any package". And I have to load it manually (require 'asdf) (require 'split-sequence). Could you tell me what's wrong? 18:09:11 mrSpec: put your require in (eval-when ...) ? 18:09:21 well, you have to load it beforehand 18:09:23 or in a file loaded before that? 18:09:43 tagac [n=user@87.221.37.89] has joined #lisp 18:09:50 Fare: Can't I put it in defpackage? 18:09:57 like iterate? 18:10:22 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-42-64.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:10:26 use asdf 18:10:32 minion: xach-asdf? 18:10:33 xach-asdf: Xach's article "Making a small Common Lisp project" can be found at http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 18:10:40 mrSpec, how do you load iterate? 18:10:46 how do you load split-sequence? 18:10:56 -!- loxs[away] [n=loxs@85.130.31.93] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:10:58 Fare: I dont load it, It is working... 18:11:05 when I have it in defpackage 18:11:21 who's making it work? 18:11:30 if not you, then someone else... 18:11:42 see above about asdf 18:11:54 so it shouldnt work? Whan I have it only in defpackage? 18:12:02 stassats: thanks, iI'll look 18:12:08 mrSpec: defpackage doesn't cause any other software to be loaded 18:12:14 s/whan/when 18:12:15 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:12:31 mrSpec: the packages it references must already be loaded by some other means 18:12:35 Xach: ahh, ok. 18:14:45 -!- ejs [n=eugen@95.135.70.67] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:18:37 ejs [n=eugen@67-70-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:15 TDT [n=user@206.196.111.202] has joined #lisp 18:19:41 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:20:23 When I add (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op 'split-sequence)) Everything is ok. Thanks 18:22:53 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.249.65] has joined #lisp 18:23:13 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.249.65] has quit [Client Quit] 18:23:20 -!- coyo [n=alex@ppp-70-129-137-41.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:23:49 :compile-toplevel isn't enough, use (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) 18:24:41 .. and read Fare bog post about eval-when :))) 18:24:45 *blog 18:24:58 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@95.85.147.143] has joined #lisp 18:25:00 no, don't 18:25:04 seconded 18:25:11 bog post is accurate 18:25:13 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@95.85.147.143] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:25:14 more like fare rant :P 18:25:15 boggle 18:25:34 wait...don't read it because it's accurate? 18:25:48 it's accurate that it makes the mind boggle 18:25:49 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@95.85.147.143] has joined #lisp 18:25:51 mine at least 18:26:14 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@95.85.147.143] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:26:15 mrSpec, instead of doing that, create a .asd file for your project 18:26:22 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-38-143.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:26:24 that is why i put smiley 18:26:35 -!- ejs [n=eugen@67-70-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:26:44 milanj, oh -- and you have a triple chin? 18:26:57 Fare: I cant create .asd, I have to put my project in 1 file 18:26:59 sandin [i=lalalal@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:19 huh? why? 18:27:24 looks like triple when i'm smiling 18:27:29 ok, so eval-when it be then -- how come iterate is already loaded? what loads it? 18:27:40 sykopomp: my professor... 18:27:45 oic 18:27:55 mrSpec: a tarball is a single file >:3 18:28:01 haha :D 18:28:06 in case he's not there next time, load iterate in your eval-when, too 18:28:28 I will find out why iterate is loaded... 18:28:29 and if you asdf is recent, you can use asdf:load-system instead of oos 'load-op 18:28:32 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:40 because now I see it is strange 18:28:52 Fare: !!! how recent?! I was about to define it myself. 18:29:15 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:29:31 sykopomp: this summer 18:29:36 wow, about time. :) 18:30:05 that's very exciting. 18:30:26 asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op can burn in hell. 18:30:46 but it's all generic and frameworky! what's not to like. :) 18:30:50 hehe It is so bad? 18:30:54 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:30:58 sykopomp: well, it can simmer around in the backend 18:31:05 Adlai: exactly 18:31:36 sykopomp, uh? 18:31:50 how can I use this asdf:load-system ? 18:31:58 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:06 oh, asdf:load-system. Dunno. A few weeks ago in the asdf.git 18:32:20 so don't bother if your asdf is older than that 18:32:28 (you can grep load-system asdf.lisp) 18:33:09 ejs [n=eugen@69-5-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:03 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 18:37:03 Grue` [n=grue@masq.snto-msu.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:26 -!- Grue` [n=grue@masq.snto-msu.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:37:40 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has joined #lisp 18:38:15 ace4016 [i=ace4016@76.168.84.210] has joined #lisp 18:39:36 Cut-R [n=X6T@91.180.188.110] has joined #lisp 18:39:45 -!- Cut-R changed the topic of #lisp to: BANDES DE PEDOPHILES VIOLEURS MANIPULATEURS MENTEURS FILS DE PUTES ENCULÉS TROUS DU CUL MAGOUILLEURS ABUSEURS D'ENFANTS !!! 18:39:55 -!- Cut-R [n=X6T@91.180.188.110] has left #lisp 18:40:02 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-6-87.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:40:05 hm 18:40:15 that's not a very nice topic. 18:40:26 -!- sykopomp changed the topic of #lisp to: NIL - someone set up the topic again, please. 18:40:51 wow is the permissions that weak that anyone can set the topic? 18:41:00 pretty much 18:41:02 -!- Adlai changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: ABCL 0.16.0, SBCL 1.0.31, Osicat 0.6.0, CFFI 0.10.5, trivial-features 0.5, Hunchentoot & Drakma 1.0.0, usocket 0.4.1, yason-0.1, series 2.2.10, CMUCL 19f. 18:41:23 anyone have any thoughts on full-text search in CL? 18:41:26 TDT: for years. never been a problem. 18:41:32 Ralith: i think montezuma is meant for that. 18:41:36 minion: montezuma 18:41:41 Xach: heh, really surprised on that. 18:41:41 montezuma: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 18:41:43 yeah, I ran into that 18:41:46 is it any good? 18:41:59 Ralith: i know some people have tried it (lichtblau?) 18:42:10 TDT: how else can you add new versions? 18:42:14 TDT: there's very occasionally someone that does a hit-and-run, but the topics are short-lived. It's useful for others to be able to update the topic. 18:42:20 sykopomp: have you reset the branch yet? 18:42:25 Adlai: yes 18:42:43 stassats: well, you could try leaving a memo for one of the ops here. 18:43:30 very convenient 18:43:34 Xach: I guess you have no memories of their success or lack thereof, though 18:43:47 stassats: Well, figured there were some channel moderators here. 18:43:59 but like other channels just de-op themselves. 18:44:01 Ralith: I remember one guy seemed to have trouble and another guy seemed to have it working fine. can't remember any names. 18:44:26 stassats: if random people setting stupid topics were a bigger problem than it is right now, then I'd prefer that method. 18:44:29 Hmm...montezuma sounds like a very very interesting project, from a text mining perspective. 18:44:37 mining? 18:44:49 Ralith: data mining 18:44:57 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-38-143.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:45:00 TDT: moreso than any other FTS engine? 18:45:15 Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-35-57.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:46:30 Ralith: That's assuming you're storing things in a database in many cases - and yes, differnet. Text mining, specifically, means I can crawl a lot of sites, and in theory toss them into montezuma to gather basic bayesian stats on the file. 18:46:46 francogrex [n=user@91.176.46.198] has joined #lisp 18:47:07 what's assuming who now? 18:47:26 *francogrex* enjoying CMUCL on linux 18:47:42 francogrex: why cmucl? 18:48:13 why not? 18:48:21 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.176.46.198] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:48:28 Fare: because there's sbcl 18:48:33 does cmucl development continue? is there a 64-bit port in sight? 18:48:46 francogrex [n=user@91.176.46.198] has joined #lisp 18:48:49 it apparently does continue 18:48:54 they recently added unicode support 18:49:07 and sse on x86 support 18:49:14 sbcl doesn't have sse on x86 18:49:15 did they reimplement it from scratch or lifted it from SBCL ? 18:49:26 reimplement 18:49:57 If I understood coorectly, there's no base-string, and they're using UTF-16. 18:51:07 so I have a conflict now; and internal one. What should i adopt as my best implemntation CMUCL or SBCL? 18:51:42 SBCL 18:51:45 francogrex: SBCL 18:52:00 what they said. 18:52:03 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:12 why should you choose only one ? 18:52:28 to save time 18:52:38 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:52:44 wtf 18:52:46 -!- pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:52:58 For the same reason I don't make software that's portable to windows -- don't care. :) 18:53:02 montezuma has a naming conflict with cl:close 18:53:08 well I like to reply on only or mainly one thing: one friend, one women, one lisp implemntation 18:53:09 how do I resolve this :/ 18:53:13 -!- ejs [n=eugen@69-5-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:53:22 Ralith: you are trying to use-package it? 18:53:26 yes 18:53:33 don't do this, then 18:53:35 but Adlai, stassats, why sbcl over cmucl? 18:53:45 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:52 stassats: then how do I use it? 18:54:08 Ralith: use defpackage? 18:54:10 I'm not calling use-package on it directly, I'm putting it in my :use clause in defpackage 18:54:12 Ralith: through fully-qualified symbols 18:54:13 ^ 18:54:23 right, how do I tell defpackage to do that 18:54:27 ah 18:54:30 *francogrex* finds that the world of CL is enlarged once he started using linux 18:54:39 you could import-from, or shadowing-import 18:54:57 francogrex: there's much more active development, I think the compiler is better, and I think more code is sbcl-specific than cmucl-specific 18:54:58 Ralith: you can shadow it, but i don't recommend to :USE every package you are using 18:55:08 stassats: then what *should* I be doing? 18:55:20 that's childish "only one lisp implementation" 18:55:21 "fully-qualified symbols" 18:55:22 Ralith: qualified symbols, like he said. 18:55:22 francogrex, sbcl because it is what most people use (aka. better support from libraries etc.) .. and from what i can tell it is the one most actively maintained 18:55:27 sykopomp: how? 18:55:33 Ralith: you can also use :shadowing-import-from #:montezuma #:close 18:55:33 Ralith: bt:make-thread 18:55:39 montezuma:foo 18:55:41 instead of importing bordeaux-threads. 18:55:57 Xach: that overrides cl:close, or the other way around? 18:56:01 Ralith: if montezuma has a package nickname, say mz, you can use that. 18:56:01 sykopomp: that's how to *refer* to them 18:56:10 sykopomp: how do I tell *defpackage* to do that? 18:56:13 putting everything into :use is prone to conflicts, as you see for yourself 18:56:19 Ralith: you don't. You put it in your code. 18:56:29 so I just rely on asdf to ensure it's present? 18:56:40 minion: tell Ralith about PCL 18:56:42 the point is 1. avoid conflicts, 2. be more explicit when you're using stuff from other packages 18:56:45 PCL: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 18:56:50 read about packages in PCL 18:56:52 Ralith: you rely on asdf for it anyways. 18:57:00 lnostdal, Adlai, ok, I see. thanks. 18:57:03 defpackage doesn't load jack shit for you. 18:57:15 it just sets up the symbol namespace you're going to work in. 18:57:25 stassats: I've read PCL -_- 18:57:47 Ralith: if the system is loaded, the package will be available. 18:57:48 Ralith: you will probably use less than 5 montezuma functions. i recommend you use package prefixes. 18:57:50 Ralith: then your reading comprehension is bad, read that chapter again 18:57:53 sykopomp: I didn't say load, I said ensure present. 18:57:56 Ralith: 18:57:57 fusss: yes that's what I'm doing. 18:58:02 read it again, I guess? 18:58:05 Ralith: that's what asdf is for. Not defpackage. 18:58:08 stassats: or it's posible I just don't have the book memorized :P 18:58:08 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:58:13 sykopomp: yes, I get it, thank you. 18:58:17 *Adlai* highly recommends l1sp.org, btw 18:58:19 Ralith: montezuma's functions are way too obvious not to collide with your own, stuff like "document-index" 18:58:24 eh, lol, urlfail there. hmm. 18:58:31 Ralith: right, but that's one of fundamental things 18:58:32 *Ralith* blargs and goes back to hacking 18:58:45 Adlai: the piss page? 18:58:47 Ralith: don't blargh, visit 18:59:01 that page really pisses me off. IF YOU GET WHAT I MEAN 18:59:06 sykopomp: l1sp.org is a redirect to various CL-related sites 18:59:10 hmmm? 18:59:22 oh, l1sp 18:59:30 I thought you meant the horrid ALU page :P 18:59:36 *fusss* recommends people play with the beastalked message queue server; yeah *play* with it, it's like a high performance dungeons and dragons. easy ASCII protocol too. 18:59:50 ruediger_ [n=ruediger@91-115-25-11.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:00:01 fusss: beastalked? 19:01:03 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:01:10 sykopomp: http://xph.us/software/beanstalkd 19:01:49 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 19:02:03 run from your local directory with -l localhost, or anybody will connect to it (if assuming your firewall allows) 19:02:15 -!- mulander [i=mulander@078088239019.lubin.vectranet.pl] has left #lisp 19:03:25 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:59 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:04:32 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:17 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:06:26 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:33 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:52 -!- setheus [n=setheus@70.116.140.134] has quit ["leaving"] 19:08:28 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:08:45 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:09:32 -!- Guest86281 [n=user@72.14.228.129] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:13:17 gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:50 wgl: redshank can transform IF to COND and WHEN/UNLESS with negated test to each other 19:15:29 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@93-82-5-138.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:16:27 Joreji [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:16:58 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:17:01 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:17:54 uh oh. looks like nikodemus's domain is having some kind of problem. http://random-state.net goes to some sort of alien language gibberish page. 19:18:05 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-25-234.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:18:12 t 19:18:15 er 19:18:20 Xach: yeah, wrote him a memo earlier today 19:18:29 moonspeak :-o 19:19:28 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:42 the_unmaker [n=g@w005.z209031033.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:49 stumpwm anyone? 19:20:02 the_unmaker: yes, several people here use stumpwm 19:20:10 there's also a channel -- #stumpwm 19:20:13 ah 19:20:17 pretty easy 19:20:21 #stumpwm is a bit quiet though 19:20:26 love/hate relationship with stumpwm. 19:20:30 ya? 19:20:34 is it liek dwm 19:20:36 sorta 19:20:36 and there are stumpwm users here 19:20:45 where is the howto 19:20:49 the_unmaker: oh, stumpwm is great 19:20:50 says to info somethignorother 19:20:52 the_unmaker: read the documentation. 19:20:59 the_unmaker: have you installed it? 19:21:13 once you do "make install" (sudo if you need to), then you can just do "info stumpwm" 19:21:18 the_unmaker: stumpwm is not a dynamic tiler. Expect something different. You might wanna watch male's youtube vid. 19:21:24 http://stumpwm.antidesktop.net/wiki ya 19:21:34 Im still hunting around for the basic howto to start xterms n stuff 19:21:42 the_unmaker: C-t ? 19:21:56 im about to but curssed co worker wants lunch 19:22:06 clisp all the way 19:22:07 that'll show you all the current root keybindings 19:22:16 the_unmaker: clisp is an implementation. 19:22:22 I know 19:22:27 it's meh. 19:22:29 ;) 19:22:37 paul graham used it 19:22:37 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2D8D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:22:48 paul graham also wrote Arc. What's your point? 19:22:59 paul graham also used to like CL 19:23:07 but he doesn't anymore 19:23:15 did he? 19:23:36 *Xach* hasn't seen any particular evidence pointing towards a like of CL 19:23:50 I think he liked it back when he wrote On Lisp 19:23:56 and ANSI CL 19:24:11 on lisp clearly shows that he likes Scheme 19:24:11 and when he was using it at Viaweb 19:24:13 I didn't get that impression at all. 19:24:16 then when he stopped needing to write software that actually did anything, he started liking languages that didn't place a priority on doing stuff. 19:24:23 stassats: yet he didn't use scheme, did he? 19:24:32 mm 19:24:45 stassats: the macro parts aren't very schemish 19:24:54 pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 19:25:23 Adlai: scheme doesn't have macros? 19:25:27 Adlai: what about the call/cc macro part? :) 19:25:52 aren't CL macros a CL thing? 19:26:00 Xach: does that mean lisp users that implement pseudo-call/cc and try to use it are really just asking for scheme, and don't actually like CL? 19:26:23 brown [n=user@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 19:26:37 sykopomp: I'm saying a call/cc macro is schemish. 19:26:51 -!- brown is now known as Guest69565 19:27:13 i'd say his anaphoric macros aren't very schemish 19:27:19 but neither very lispish 19:27:25 sykopomp: and my impression is that Paul Graham has never liked CL, but used it for some stuff anyway. 19:27:54 I wonder whether he likes Arc :) 19:28:01 Xach: I guess if "always had something to bitch about" means he didn't like it, I'll agree :) 19:28:10 michaelw: he only likes it because he doesn't do that much programming anymore 19:28:37 he just maintains news and, as far as I could tell from my glances at the Arc community, rtm does most of the actual Arc hacking 19:28:38 Adlai: how do you know? 19:28:50 antifuchs: is there currently any boinkmark feed somewhere? 19:29:04 michaelw: he's too busy being filthy rich and encouraging startuptards. 19:29:31 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:29:45 antifuchs: the old one i was checking stopped working some time ago, but if you told me a better feed to use, i'm afraid i forgot about it 19:31:16 -!- anon_ [n=anon@ip56583baa.direct-adsl.nl] has left #lisp 19:31:37 michaelw: it seemed as though many Arc things were being written by rtm, and pg was just sorta "guiding 19:32:01 -!- pemryan [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:32:51 Xach: I'm confused by information i hear from the CL community; two of the biggest CL names (or so I thought at first) seem to be oriented away from CL afterwards: paul graham as you are saying above and peter norvig (can anyone dispute the fact that paip is a leader) is labeled a python hacker! 19:33:22 francogrex: not as impressive as guy steele who turned to making java 19:33:31 francogrex: both of their recommended books are pretty old, as far as CL is concerned 19:33:40 varjag: he didn't write Java, he was just hired to document it 19:34:14 francogrex: what do you find confusing? 19:34:19 tcr pasted "SBCL: "Assignment to argument: X prevents use of assertion from function type proclamation: "" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87731 19:35:10 I expected a code-deletion note if any 19:36:14 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:36:15 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 19:36:18 setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:36:48 Xach: why didn' those big names stick to CL since they were key players. doesn't this give a bad message to people, new ones especially? 19:37:15 Life goes on? 19:37:20 big names? what did they do besides writing a couple of books? 19:37:41 -!- [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.82.48] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:37:44 tcr, i'm not seeing this here 19:37:57 i'm seeing 19:38:10 francogrex: I don't know. Do you have a bad impression because Paul Graham and Peter Norvig are not using CL today? 19:38:11 (1.0.31.17) .. i'm using safety 3 though .. so 19:38:14 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177077073.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:19 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:38:24 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:30 stassats: those books (and articles) promoted the language a lot, a lot 19:39:01 Xach: not bad impression, but a strange feeling and question marks all over the place 19:39:18 francogrex: Why do you speak of yourself in third-person? 19:39:24 tcr: life is not supposed to go on beyond CL 19:40:00 francogrex: keep in mind what they actually do today 19:40:04 tcr: it's just a IRC trick to 19:40:19 paul graham just sits around painting 19:40:28 and peter norvig is at google 19:40:29 You're saying you're playing tricks on us? 19:40:47 no, it's just the /me in IRC 19:40:48 you can't expect either one to have time for CL 19:40:50 last I checked, norvig still had good things to say about CL 19:40:50 *Adlai* jests, slightly, as usual. 19:41:09 well ok 19:41:13 that's true too 19:41:19 he still has CL stuff all over his site 19:41:30 http://gigamonkeys.com/book/blurbs.html <-- 19:41:52 he'd better: PAIP is the bible for me. I sleep wth it next to my pillow 19:42:05 francogrex: the reality is graham may never have actually liked CL (because he has bad taste, ofc), and that it's unrealistic to think that everyone has an opportunity to code CL for a living :) 19:42:05 19:42:13 i have more respect to authors of CL and implementers of CMUCL and SBCL, than to PG or Norvig 19:42:26 sykopomp: how dare you? paul graham has "Taste for Makers"! 19:42:35 stassats: Dan Weinreb is a soon-to-be Clojure convert! 19:42:40 love is over 19:42:45 sykopomp: not really 19:42:50 whatever makes him happy 19:43:18 francogrex: what other languages have big names who hacked in the 80s or 90s and are still as active and prominent? 19:43:20 stassats: Time for slime hack? 19:43:28 tcr: maybe 19:43:42 perl? 19:44:08 phf: c++ :) 19:44:14 stassats: A few days ago I have liked to be able if there was some key in *slime apropros* to group the symbols by package 19:44:22 but that guy has nowhere to go 19:44:53 stassats: I mean by printing the package, then printing all the symbols from that package and stipping of the package qualifier 19:45:03 stripping 19:45:12 Argh excuse my bad grammar 19:45:45 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:46:12 i see 19:46:28 bah, i still have (setf *print-base* 36) 19:47:09 -!- kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 19:47:20 stassats: This behaviour should be optional though (actually I think the other way around, it should be hierarchical by default, and can be flattened on key press) 19:47:34 stassats: flattened can be useful for isearching 19:47:45 foom: well, my point is that there should be awareness of time periods involved. a lot of "big names" in other languages are loud mouths of the past 10 years or so. lisper big names have been hacking on lisp far longer, so no surprise they change priorities eventually 19:48:35 phf: In particular, I doubt many hack at all anymore 19:48:52 tcr: like paul graham, who just preaches 19:49:11 phf: i hope i won't drom CL to defect to some other camp. "because when it's love, it lasts forever" 19:49:18 pemryan [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 19:49:23 You drivel 19:49:25 or they would say they are interested in, say, java, which really means, that they like to architect solutions, while managing a team of java devs doing things for them. etc. 19:49:59 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:49:59 by the way, now that i have linux up, I should try that LinJ thiung 19:50:04 tcr: hm? 19:50:46 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:55 -!- tagac [n=user@87.221.37.89] has left #lisp 19:56:06 zeroish [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 19:56:55 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:10 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:57:36 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:56 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:58:19 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:23 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit ["leaving"] 20:00:38 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:01:06 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:02:39 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:02:52 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:11 a non-lisp question: i want to uninstall cmucl (I actually want to have another version instead). How can i do that (new to Linux)? 20:03:39 rm -rf 20:03:40 I think that really depends on how you installed it in the first place 20:03:44 francogrex: how did you install it? 20:04:05 If it's from a package management system, then through that, if from source then you may have a make uninstall option available, else do what stassats recommends 20:04:15 I just doawnloaded it and did a tar xjf cmucl...tar.gz2 20:04:52 was this : cmucl-unicode-2009-08-x86-linux.extra.tar.bz2.asc 20:05:01 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:05:10 xwithout the asc at the end obvioulsy 20:05:53 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 20:06:12 then it just worked. I ddn't have to do any installation action then 20:06:16 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:06:22 Well then just rm -Rf the directory. 20:06:35 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:03 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:07:18 TDT: I don't even see a directory labeled CMUCL. 20:07:20 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:07:52 what I had done was cd /usr/local then tar xjf cmucl-unicode-2009-08-x86-linux.extra.tar.bz2 20:08:16 I think it was all spreadout in all directions there 20:08:24 francogrex: you can get a list of files in a tar.bz2 file with "tar tjf whatever.tar.bz2". you can use that list to remove the files it unpacked. 20:09:01 Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-11-191.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:09:02 Xach: ah ok; will try 20:09:44 when i was much smaller, i unpacked nethack.tar.gz in /dev and i was very upset because i didn't know how to clean it up. so i just erased the disks and reinstalled slackware. 20:09:47 *Xach* is larger now 20:10:19 well, not to be funnay I was planning to do the same: erase the drive 20:10:54 perhaps you too have room to grow! 20:11:02 loxs[] [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:08 sure 20:11:59 -!- loxs[] [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:12:18 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@95.85.147.143] has joined #lisp 20:12:52 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:56 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@95.85.147.143] has quit [Client Quit] 20:13:10 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:58 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:13:58 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 20:14:13 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:14:13 -!- nvoorhies_ is now known as nvoorhies 20:14:37 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:02 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:15:11 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:52 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:16:28 Xach: why in /dev? 20:17:01 Adlai: it was where i happened to be at the time 20:17:29 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177077073.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:19:24 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:30 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:19:38 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:49 -!- Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-35-57.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:20:25 kib2 [n=kib2@82.228.159.28] has joined #lisp 20:20:31 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:20:37 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:31 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:22:04 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:04 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:22:29 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:36 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:22:48 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:51 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:23:04 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:07 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:23:13 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:20 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:23:49 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:02 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:24:49 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:04 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:25:05 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:25:34 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:25:40 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:42 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-11834.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 20:25:48 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:26:17 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@95.85.147.143] has joined #lisp 20:26:26 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@95.85.147.143] has quit [Client Quit] 20:26:47 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@95.85.147.143] has joined #lisp 20:27:12 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@95.85.147.143] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:27:13 plyr_player: having some network trouble? 20:27:20 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:25 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:27:31 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:50 loxs[] [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:17 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:28:20 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177077073.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:48 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:28:49 lunatic [n=hiatus@c-98-235-236-135.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:12 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:21 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:29:25 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:42 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:14 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:30:52 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:31:01 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:36 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:31:50 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:58 seangrove [n=user@173.11.104.25] has joined #lisp 20:32:46 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:33:08 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:39 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:33:46 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:53 hmm 20:34:01 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 20:34:54 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:35:00 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:35:13 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:36:14 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:51 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:53 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:37:52 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:18 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:38:55 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 20:39:13 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:23 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:39:46 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:39:56 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:01 -!- lunatic [n=hiatus@c-98-235-236-135.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:40:02 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:40:28 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:53 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:40:53 clhs #+ 20:40:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 20:41:05 hey gents 20:41:11 I am trying to bring up stumpwm 20:41:13 heh 20:41:15 and clisp 20:41:30 the_unmaker: #stumpwm for support on that 20:41:45 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:52 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:42:05 *tcr* wishes for #+/#- supporting numeric parameters so #2-sbcl would skip next two expressions 20:42:12 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:25 froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has joined #lisp 20:42:26 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:42:28 #-sbcl #-sbcl works 20:42:36 not everywhere 20:42:38 that would be nice... you could use a progn, I guess? 20:42:40 #-sbcl(progn ...) :) 20:42:57 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:02 and counting number of forms after #3 will become troublesome 20:43:04 Won't work for, say, LOOP 20:43:20 yuck 20:43:50 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:43:59 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:19 stassats: why is that troublesome? 20:44:24 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-9-57.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:49 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:44:55 Adlai: i can't count to 4 20:45:09 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:25 or actually, i don't want to count forms by hand 20:45:28 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:45:55 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:58 well, tcr does :) 20:46:13 and the readmacro really should make this possible. 20:46:15 hmm. 20:46:23 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:47:12 #+ is a reader macro, indeed 20:47:29 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:26 adl [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has joined #lisp 20:48:40 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:49:19 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:21 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:46 are there any solutions for a crassplatform canvas? i don't want to depend on third-party libs (like sdl) and i don't need any other widgets. i want an equivalent of skippy in ease of use. maybe callbacks for mouse and keys. 20:52:46 mcclim? 20:52:51 does X count as a third-party lib? 20:53:39 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@e179165203.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 20:53:40 stassats: mcclim runs on windows now? 20:54:00 when it didn't? 20:54:18 hm. I thought it didn't. What backend works on win? 20:54:23 Adlai: i'd say it can require clx on unix, but it should be native on windows and mac 20:54:26 sykopomp: CLX 20:54:35 -!- Fare [n=Fare@63.107.91.99] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:54:39 stassats: wait what? 20:54:52 sykopomp: i knew it was coming 20:55:04 running a sketchy X-on-windows thing? 20:55:19 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177077073.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:55:21 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177077073.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:40 sketchy? x window ran well on windows back in the days when i tried it 20:55:54 Xming is quite good 20:56:19 wouldn't that require users to set up X on their windows box in order to even run mcclim?.. 20:56:31 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has left #lisp 20:56:31 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 20:57:26 if your users aren't totally spineless, it won't do any harm 20:57:41 That's a really useless "solution" 20:57:47 by useless, I mean it's shit. 20:58:06 it's not useless, but it doesn't quite meet phf's critereon 20:58:41 -!- Blay [i=Blay@89.142.47.166] has quit [] 20:58:45 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit ["bye bye"] 20:58:46 vecto? 20:58:51 use a client server model - implement the canvas using swing - and send it commands over a tcp connection ? 20:59:08 it's a horrible hack you have to maintain a separate application for. 20:59:18 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:30 plyr_player: connection issues? :) 20:59:55 welcome to the real world, world of horrible hacks 21:00:00 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:00:13 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-1-179.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:00:13 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 21:00:16 stassats: it doesn't have to be that way. 21:00:17 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:32 stassats: vecto lets me display a window? i thought it was purely inmemory, with various file backends 21:00:33 sykopomp: right, that's why i don't care about windows users 21:01:19 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:01:28 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:31 phf: oh, i missed the part about callbacks 21:01:53 stassats: windows users like me don't use windows for the love of it, but our salary depends on it 21:01:57 -!- loxs[] [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:02:00 stassats: making people install a weird X on windows so you can run the CLX backend is akin to telling people some windows application is cross-platform because it runs on wine. 21:02:18 no, it's not 21:02:50 you don't object to using Qt or Gtk+, do you? 21:02:52 yes it is. You're running a potentially shitty compatibility layer-type thing that's maintained separately from your application 21:02:57 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:03:22 do Qt and Gtk+ require you to separately install an X server? :) 21:03:48 no 21:03:59 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@95.85.147.143] has joined #lisp 21:03:59 they are external libraries, though 21:04:03 but why separately? you can make your application install X server, if you want 21:04:04 then there is no problem. 21:04:14 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@95.85.147.143] has quit [Client Quit] 21:04:40 it's mostly that I think running X on windows is a little suspect. 21:04:40 -!- phf [n=user@host.icnfull.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:04:48 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@95.85.147.143] has joined #lisp 21:04:52 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@95.85.147.143] has quit [Client Quit] 21:04:59 but if it's easy to package with your installer and actually works properly, then it's alright... 21:05:28 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:30 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.176.46.198] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:05:51 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:06:28 Xach: sorry, but no boinkmarks feeds yet, and probably not until november. when I put them up, you'll be the first to know 21:07:36 -!- proun [n=proun@cpe-76-180-85-22.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["leaving"] 21:09:09 michaelw: Thanks for the pointer. I will check it out. Do others here use it? 21:09:51 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-31-247.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:13:04 *attila_lendvai* murmurs something about banning plyr_player and goes to sleep 21:14:10 -!- gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 21:14:58 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:18 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:15:19 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-151.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:15:41 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:16 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:16:35 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@95.85.147.143] has joined #lisp 21:16:39 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@95.85.147.143] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:18:24 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:18:38 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:42 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:18:53 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177077073.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:19:11 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:22 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:19:46 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:57 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:20:12 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:43 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:22:34 good night 21:22:36 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06cf9b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:22:53 Hey all, I'm trying to write a dsl as one of my first big projects in cl 21:23:35 nice 21:23:36 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:44 I have the syntax written out here: http://pastie.org/private/t9poxrfpsm3hgn1h5ktzig 21:24:02 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:24:07 Does that seem like it's going to be difficult for me to parse the example in lisp? 21:24:49 when you write DSLs in Lisp, you don't want to parse 21:24:52 The backend for that is written in ruby, but I got a recommendation to do it in lisp, and that sounds like fun :D 21:25:01 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:12 Adlai: I was planning on following something like the second chapter of PAIP 21:25:14 you want to just extend Lisp to the point that it becomes a DSL 21:25:31 Yeah, but that would mean I probably need to refactor that to work as sexps, right? 21:25:41 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:25:50 but yes, that looks very parsable 21:26:03 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Success] 21:27:08 Hmm, so parsing that example, would you just use regular expressions to go thorugh line by line, or what did you hve in mind? 21:27:22 Adlai: This is meant for non-lisp/schemers, so I was hoping to avoid parens since people freak out from it for whatever reason 21:27:31 Ironic about this all is a project I'm going to work on soon is not too terribly far off from this. 21:27:36 seangrove: ok, that's reasonable. 21:27:39 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:44 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:27:52 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:56 Should I got the regex rout that TDT suggested then? 21:28:00 TDT: Use cl-yacc, or some other parser framework 21:28:05 Hell no 21:28:21 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@143-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:28:21 chose regex and you'll have two problems 21:28:43 I don't even see how regex could help there 21:28:55 regex can't help you parse, can they? 21:29:14 Adlai: I was thinking it'd break down the lines and match them to appropriate functions 21:29:35 But that seems rather coarse 21:29:47 Hi. Do you know if there's an updated 'Lisp In a Box' version with EMacs 23 or wether if it's do-able ? 21:29:48 seangrove: nah, there are good parser frameworks in CL already 21:29:48 I'd like to do it in as "lispy" a manner as possible 21:29:57 Adlai: It could, depending on how you use it and how structured the grammar is that you impose. It's tough, that's for sure. 21:29:58 Great 21:30:21 seangrove: The lispy way is not to parse at all, or only minimally. 21:30:24 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.248.69] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:30:26 For something like: "Go to web page X, download from link Y, .., .., .." - is there a parser framework that handles that sorta syntax? 21:30:36 kib2: I've been working on something like that 21:30:41 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:30:43 Is this likely to crush a semi-lisp-newbie? 21:30:47 TDT: have you read PAIP? 21:30:51 Or would it be possible to get something going in a day or two? 21:30:55 stassats: no, I haven't. 21:31:02 well, read it! 21:31:02 In fact, it almost works... I should put in a bit longer and get it working 21:31:06 tcr: That's the idea I was thinking 21:31:30 Wow, redundant :D 21:31:43 Anyway, I thought I'd define each of the verbs as a functions 21:31:50 stassats: lol, ok well if you feel this directly relates to what I'm trying to solve, I can. It's a semester project in computational linguistics. 21:31:57 Adlai: great! I have tried to change the 'emacs' dir inside it with mine but without success. 21:31:59 seangrove: I'd suggest to start with a parenthesis version. You can write a parser which emits that afterwards. 21:32:06 Sounds good 21:32:17 I'll try! 21:32:29 Heh, hopefully I'm not curled in a ball crying from frustration in a few hours 21:32:33 seangrove: for the {...} and [] you can use reader-macros. 21:32:55 TDT: it describes pattern matching 21:33:02 Haven't reached reader-macros yet 21:33:19 Adlai : I must be crazy to start CL on a Windows machine, but unfortunatly, I have no choice. 21:33:29 jeti [n=jeti@84.142.252.148] has joined #lisp 21:33:40 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212.198.78.230] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:33:41 kib2: just a sec, let me see if my current version runs 21:34:04 Adlai: ok, thanks. 21:36:04 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:36:55 tcr: This look reasonable then? http://paste.lisp.org/+1VP6 21:36:58 -!- TDT [n=user@206.196.111.202] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:39:54 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has joined #lisp 21:39:55 Geralt1 [n=Geralt@p5B32FB7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:55 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:40:13 -!- Geralt1 is now known as Geralt 21:41:22 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 21:48:14 seangrove: something like this is arguably lispier http://paste.lisp.org/display/87738#1 21:49:50 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:41 Looks good, I'll use that 21:50:51 I was kind of thinking that anyway 21:51:14 Think I might be getting a tiny sense of this 21:51:45 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:26 you could probably implement that much straightforwardly with ordinary functions, no need for macros 21:52:49 I'm defining each of the functions from the inside out. So, ask, say, submit, and now page 21:53:55 any clbuild hacker around? 21:54:08 wchogg [n=wchogg@host-241-76.pubnet.pdx.edu] has joined #lisp 21:54:16 As I'm working in the repl, is there a way to save a snapshot of everything I've build up thus far? 21:54:16 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 21:54:28 kib2: ok, my hacked-up Lispbox "v0.8" almost works 21:56:17 <``Erik> seangrove: depends on the implementation? might be worth grabbing emacs and slime/swank... 21:56:26 seangrove: You typically write your program in a buffer save that one periodically to file 21:56:32 I'm working on slime in emacs actually 21:56:44 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 21:56:51 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:56:53 seangrove: You typically compile definitions into your running Lisp image by using C-c C-c 21:56:56 Alright, so it's not really normal to do most of the work in the repl then? 21:57:13 weirdo pasted "type inference woes" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87740 21:57:18 -!- adl [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has left #lisp 21:57:26 So, work in a buffer, C-c C-c, possibly explore things on the repl, then back to the buffer to make further edits? 21:57:26 You use the REPL to test your definitions, perhaps also to build up state and work on that 21:57:39 <``Erik> defun in the file buffer, C-c C-c to compile the form the cursor is in, C-c C-k to compile the whole file :) 21:58:11 Phew. Ok. I'll try that in a little bit then 21:58:23 I'll play around in the repl until I ahve an idea what these functions should look like 21:58:40 xcard [n=simonhj@daimi-pat.daimi.au.dk] has joined #lisp 21:58:56 seangrove: You can use C-c C-y within a definition and automatically switch to repl and have a template of the function call 21:59:18 weirdo annotated #87740 "actually it's like this" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87740#1 21:59:38 Coliveira [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has joined #lisp 21:59:56 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:06 -!- Hun [n=hun@80.153.55.38] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:03:41 can anyone build SBCL 1.0.31.19 on Snow Leopard? 22:03:57 i.e. has anyone managed to do that? 22:05:24 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:05:42 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:05:57 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:08:16 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122.57.1.105] has joined #lisp 22:09:14 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 22:11:48 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:12:09 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:12:10 -!- xcard [n=simonhj@daimi-pat.daimi.au.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:13:25 coliv [n=Coliveir@c-69-248-128-195.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:46 *coyo* walks into the room with a misconfigured development environment 22:16:08 I'm looking for a 2D game library like lispbuilder-sdl but for Scheme. 22:16:31 Edward: you're also looking for an IRC channel like #lisp but for Scheme 22:16:38 it's called #scheme, iirc. 22:16:39 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:16:47 coyo: enlighten us 22:16:53 okay 22:17:12 lemme paste it real quick 22:17:56 wait, what was the url again? 22:18:12 oh 22:18:14 minion: lisppaste for coyo 22:18:15 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 22:18:16 it's in the topic 22:18:21 that too :) 22:18:59 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 22:20:08 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@77-21-138-135-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:21:28 coyo pasted "the (mis)configuration for the newbie coyo's development environment" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87741 22:22:05 :3 22:22:21 Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:23 so, any tips on how to get this thing up and running? 22:22:50 "You're doing it wrong!" 22:22:52 *Adlai* reads the paste 22:23:02 XD 22:23:29 eh, I don't think you need to add clbuild to the Emacs load-path 22:23:31 that's a very old version of sbcl you're using 22:23:35 unless you got slime from there? 22:23:45 kevzettler [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:12 hmm, you should probably get SBCL through clbuild 22:25:17 -!- Coliveira [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:26:37 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:27:10 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:27:31 config does surely look strange 22:27:35 -!- Aszarsha [n=aszarsha@91-164-151-78.rev.libertysurf.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:27:42 I'm not sure you want to use clbuild as your lisp implementation 22:28:13 you can run slime with ./clbuild slime 22:28:31 also, don't start slime in .emacs 22:28:38 ie, leave out the (slime) at the end of your .emacs 22:28:40 and generate slime config with ./clbuild slime-configuration 22:29:20 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 22:29:46 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:04 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:31:08 what do i do to my metaclass to cause slot-value-using-class to be called? 22:33:27 *coyo* returns, reads scrolly, and does as he is asked 22:33:35 meow? 22:34:12 weirdo: found this: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/LWRM/html/lwref-71.htm#55217 -- which says "By default, standard slot accessors are optimized such that they do not call slot-value-using-class. This optimization can be switched off using the :optimize-slot-access nil class option." 22:34:27 mishoo, thank you! 22:40:57 pasting changes... 22:43:50 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 22:43:51 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 22:44:17 coyo annotated #87741 "changes to config, and results, seems sucessful" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87741#1 22:44:29 thanks guise 22:44:30 <3 22:46:12 oh right 22:46:21 removing (slime) directive 22:46:29 it's very convenient, though 22:46:41 no reason not to have it if that's the main thing you use emacs for 22:47:14 right 22:48:05 <_3b> you might also want to get rid of the (setq slime-use-autodoc-mode nil) line as well 22:48:10 oh yeah 22:48:16 coyo: do what _3b said 22:48:21 it will make things prettier. 22:48:22 ^^ 22:48:39 okay 22:48:42 *_3b* even goes so far as to replace it with (setq slime-autodoc-use-multiline-p t) 22:48:42 removing line... 22:48:59 ralith: should i do that as well? 22:49:02 _3b: wassat do? 22:49:04 coyo: no idea. 22:49:13 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:14 changing width of minibuffer is annoying 22:49:14 <_3b> shows entire arlist even if it doesn't fit in 1 line 22:49:28 <_3b> yeah, that would the the reason not to do so :) 22:49:28 *height 22:49:31 hm, I agree with stassats, that could be annoying 22:49:42 coyo: I wouldn't worry about it for now. 22:49:43 okay, simply removing line 22:49:55 *_3b* finds it worth the annoyance, but that is something you would have to try and decide for yourself 22:50:06 I've simply never had doc lines that long :P 22:50:19 <_3b> probably matters less for people who like 1 big frame instead of 80 column frames 22:50:40 http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/hacks/slime/slime-snapshot-with-open-file.png 22:51:06 Personally, I find it annoying, too. I thought about auto-scrolling or using some keybinding to scroll. 22:51:26 <_3b> if i was less lazy, i'd probably have dedicated windows for that sort of thing 22:52:03 <_3b> possibly a key to toggle it would be good 22:52:16 removing... done 22:52:18 <_3b> then it doesn't jump when you don't care, but you can see it if you need to 22:52:21 i saw the other day a new laptop with auxiliary screens, might be good fir arglist displaying 22:52:35 that's what slime-typeout-frame is for 22:52:37 <_3b> yeah, or maybe one of those logitech gaming keyboards 22:52:42 replacing ralith's version of (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-sbcl-exts slime-tramp slime-asdf)) 22:54:34 newcmr [i=580fc480@gateway/web/freenode/x-rikqysmqrcjblyps] has joined #lisp 22:55:00 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:55:07 commands confirmed... tasks completed... now idle 22:55:19 coyo: make me coffee 22:55:32 :3 22:55:57 -!- newcmr [i=580fc480@gateway/web/freenode/x-rikqysmqrcjblyps] has left #lisp 22:56:23 Adlai: make: *** No rule to make target `coffee'. Stop. 22:56:29 :D 22:56:46 *Adlai* is interested to know what the make target "me" contains 22:57:11 windows me 22:57:50 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:58:27 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:05:32 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-237.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:06:43 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:38 -!- ruediger_ [n=ruediger@91-115-25-11.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:14:09 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:15:14 Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 23:22:30 jeti` [n=jeti@p548EF4EF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:24 -!- jeti [n=jeti@84.142.252.148] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:25:43 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-11834.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:26:22 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:24 Can I use asdf with SBCL? 23:28:43 I'm on OSX 10.5 and I certainly don't have a clisp in my path 23:28:45 Yes 23:29:04 Well, i don't know about OSX, but i've use asdf with SBCL 23:29:27 Hmm, perhaps I can do this in emacs then 23:30:38 <``Erik> I use asdf with sbcl on osX.5 23:31:04 <``Erik> sbcl has "require" as a synonym for "asdf:oos adsf:load-op", as well 23:31:22 <``Erik> so I can (require :whatever) :) 23:31:47 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@c-69-248-128-195.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:31:49 Ah, ok 23:33:18 when compiling clisp 23:33:20 ``Erik: Is the first line here not needed? http://paste.lisp.org/display/87745 23:33:53 If I have compiled libsigserv readline and libffi, will the configure look in /usr/local/lib for this stuff by itself or must I point out each one 23:35:04 <_3b> seangrove: require only uses asdf if asdf is loaded, so it is needed (unless something else already loaded it) 23:35:53 the_unmaker, just install the respective "libxxx-dev" packages 23:36:11 sb-md5 can be required without requiring asdf first 23:36:20 ..no need to fetch the deps. from source and compile those too 23:36:38 <_3b> right, was just noticing it was probably a contrib and not an external asdf lib 23:37:16 coyoes [n=theCoyo@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:08 I did, but I cant find the libsigsegv on the filesystem even though the compile went fine 23:39:10 lol 23:39:12 _3b: I downloaded the md5 package from here: http://www.cliki.net/MD5 But I'm ever so slightly confused about how to use it :D 23:39:34 ..i mean via apt 23:39:34 you don't need to download it, it's included with asdf 23:39:40 pr_ [n=pr@p579CA793.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:40 with sbcl 23:40:00 Ah, so I'm being redundant here then? 23:40:48 libsigsegv.a is in /usr/local/lib 23:41:00 but ldconfig -p|grep sig won't return it 23:41:01 weird 23:41:19 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 23:41:20 it shows readline lib etc 23:41:51 <``Erik> oh, srry, my .sbclrc pulls asdf :) 23:42:06 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:10 -!- kevzettler [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:42:35 (format nil "~{~(~x~)~}" (coerce (sb-md5:md5sum-string "MD5") 'list)) 23:42:41 <_3b> seangrove: looks easy to use, what is confusing you about it? 23:43:05 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 23:43:16 johnny_z [n=anonymou@217.24.250.130] has joined #lisp 23:43:23 <_3b> stassats: shouldn't that be ~2,'0x ? 23:43:41 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:43:45 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 23:43:56 It seems md5 is undefined 23:45:35 _3b: oh, yeah 23:45:50 I should probably be using different functions, no problem 23:45:57 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:45:57 -!- pr_ is now known as pr 23:46:00 though, ~{~(~x~)~} looks nicer 23:46:07 <``Erik> (require :sb-md5) .. (sb-md5:md5sum-string "") ? 23:46:12 <_3b> yeah 23:47:53 ``Erik: I think that might have done it ;) 23:47:59 How did you find that? 23:48:52 you could find it my previous message, for example 23:49:15 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:04 stassats: Haha, my bad, I'm sorry 23:51:28 stassats: How then, did you find that command? 23:51:52 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483B2D1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:52:06 through slime completion 23:52:40 Got it, thanks. 23:52:44 when compiling clisp, where do I change the short site and long site names? 23:52:45 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 23:52:51 *seangrove* feels terrible about this utter newb vibe he's giving off 23:53:02 (mapcar #'fmakunbound '(short-site-name long-site-name)) 23:53:02 here ? in config.lisp? 23:53:11 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/sb_002dmd5.html#sb_002dmd5 is more obvious variant 23:54:45 the next way is to read the source code 23:55:07 -!- kib2 [n=kib2@82.228.159.28] has left #lisp 23:58:18 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]