00:00:02 <``Erik> woops 00:02:34 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:02:45 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 00:05:18 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:05:22 -!- aaronfeng [n=aaronfen@70-91-21-170-BusName-pa.panjde.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [] 00:07:10 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:07:43 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 00:08:33 -!- HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:10:38 I have a simple macro which uses a variable declared with defparameter, but slime keeps complaining about an unound var. 00:11:22 pkhuong: what does "correctly tagged" mean exactly? 00:11:23 And subsequently gives emits an error. 00:11:31 s/gives// 00:12:35 luis: tagged with the expected tag. That only works if you have a relatively small set of tags, since natural alignment is checked for. 00:13:25 slackjaw [n=jolyonwh@cb8faac9.atp.nicta.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:13:38 pkhuong: what if more than one tag yields proper alignment? 00:13:54 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:14:41 oh, they apply an offset to the pointer that should match the tag 00:14:41 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has joined #lisp 00:14:46 I get it now. 00:15:47 Lemurian [n=lemurian@unaffiliated/lemurian] has joined #lisp 00:15:52 luis: right, like you would if the tag was known/assumed to be correct. 00:15:53 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:17:21 BTW, do you know how to check if __thread supported? 00:17:56 GCC doesn't support it on every platform but I can't find a way to check that with an #ifdef. 00:17:58 lsk2 [n=lsk2_4@122.116.5.215] has joined #lisp 00:18:16 Thread local scope? 00:18:27 luis: that's what autotools are for 00:18:28 right. 00:18:41 fe[nl]ix: ugh. :) 00:18:55 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@70.182.191.195] has quit [] 00:20:26 luis: docs say it depends on the arch, linker, abi, and stdlib, so autolose is probably the only way. 00:21:51 benny` [n=benny@i577A19B8.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:22:38 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A19B8.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:25:14 -!- spicey [n=e@87.99.83.235] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:25:28 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@75-94-4-238.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:27:20 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:29:22 fe[nl]ix: ... autotools are scawwy and bwoken 00:29:52 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 00:30:19 *p_l* is terrified of libtool 00:30:22 p_l: feel free to write a better substitute for autotools 00:33:24 fe[nl]ix: I got violated by them. 00:33:48 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-75-187.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:33:56 blitz_ [n=blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 00:34:43 how melodramatic 00:35:45 yea. I still don't know what the @%^)! libtool did on that mips host to cause a return from function to crash stack and dance fandango 00:37:43 rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-23-247.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 00:38:19 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:40:16 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442325.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:40:25 joga_ [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 00:45:29 eno__ [n=eno@70.137.138.105] has joined #lisp 00:45:48 sohail1 [n=sohail@76-10-170-203.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:47:02 -!- kerimbasol [n=kerim@85.107.168.36] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:47:14 kerimbasol_ [n=kerim@85.107.131.27] has joined #lisp 00:47:16 crypto_ [n=z0d@artifact.hu] has joined #lisp 00:48:15 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:48:15 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-28-152.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:48:15 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-23-247.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:48:15 -!- koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.107.70] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:48:15 -!- prxq__ [n=mommer@f051040010.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:48:15 -!- joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:48:15 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:48:15 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:48:15 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216.80.120.145] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:48:15 -!- Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:48:15 -!- pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:48:15 -!- sciendan [n=dan@c-69-250-212-245.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:48:15 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:48:15 -!- p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-hvlepktjfmmcoyjf] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:48:15 -!- srcerer_ [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:48:15 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:48:15 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:48:15 -!- ineiros [n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:48:15 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:48:21 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:26 Karifu [n=dada@ip-62-241-82-34.evc.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:29 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 00:49:29 hi! 00:49:43 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 00:49:56 -!- Karifu [n=dada@ip-62-241-82-34.evc.net] has left #lisp 00:51:41 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AF46.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:52:02 -!- sohail1 [n=sohail@76-10-170-203.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:52:24 jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:53:03 sykopomp: should work ok now 00:57:00 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:58:43 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:58:43 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:43 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-28-152.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:43 koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.107.70] has joined #lisp 00:58:43 prxq__ [n=mommer@f051040010.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 00:58:43 ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:43 Draggor [n=Draggor@216.80.120.145] has joined #lisp 00:58:43 Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 00:58:43 pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 00:58:43 sciendan [n=dan@c-69-250-212-245.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:43 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:43 p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-hvlepktjfmmcoyjf] has joined #lisp 00:58:43 srcerer_ [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 00:58:43 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 00:58:43 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 00:58:43 ineiros [n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 00:58:43 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:26 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:59:28 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:00:28 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net."] 01:00:31 Xach: works! Thanks. 01:00:32 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:39 wow, read-from-string is terrible :\ 01:02:23 sohail1 [n=sohail@76-10-170-203.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:02:36 sohail2 [n=sohail@76-10-170-203.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:03:14 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:19 FareWell [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:16 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 01:05:17 -!- joga_ is now known as joga 01:05:19 chavo_ [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:53 sykopomp: how so exactly? R-F-S is quite wonderful IMO 01:07:12 drewc: weird mixture of &optional and actually useful &key 01:07:26 sykopomp: ah, yes.. there's a few of those. 01:08:35 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:09:01 -!- sohail2 [n=sohail@76-10-170-203.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:10:47 the ACL FAQ actually has one question dedicated to that function 01:10:53 ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.30] has joined #lisp 01:11:06 Adlai: URL? 01:12:11 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:12:15 ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 01:14:26 http://www.franz.com/support/faq/index.lhtml#s-using-cl 01:14:40 FareWell, ^^ 01:16:19 -!- eno__ [n=eno@70.137.138.105] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:21:13 -!- sohail1 [n=sohail@76-10-170-203.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:24:37 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-28-152.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:24:51 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-168-150.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:35 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:30:21 aaronfeng [n=aaronfen@c-68-45-137-255.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:56 -!- ignas_ [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:39:48 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-zrsjrpizkhzzcega] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:40:11 prxq_ [n=mommer@f051069179.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 01:41:45 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:42:53 spicey [n=e@87.99.83.235] has joined #lisp 01:47:46 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:49:18 -!- spicey [n=e@87.99.83.235] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:51:37 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:52:10 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has left #lisp 01:54:17 -!- prxq__ [n=mommer@f051040010.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:56:32 -!- frontiers [n=frontier@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:56:43 frontiers [n=frontier@79.160.22.139] has joined #lisp 01:59:09 iaindalton [n=iain@host-72-174-169-236.cdc-ut.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:37 Excuse a newbie question, but why doesn't this work when replacing the (aref ...) with i works? 02:00:38 (let ((arr (make-array 100))) (do ((i 2 (1+ i))) ((>= i 100) (format t "~a~%" (aref arr i))))) 02:00:38 is anything defined about namestrings? 02:00:51 or am i better to use MAKE-PATHNAME in hopes of achieving portability? 02:02:58 sohail [n=sohail@76-10-170-203.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 02:03:10 iaindalton: what did you expect, what happened instead? 02:03:57 nvm, I figured it out. SBCL says "The value 100 is not of type (MOD 100)", which apparently means the aref is out of bounds. 02:04:23 -!- FareWell is now known as Fare 02:04:53 will GET-INTERNAL-RUN-TIME ever wrap round? 02:05:25 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.128.98.167] has joined #lisp 02:06:05 I don't understand types in Lisp; what does type (MOD 100) mean? 02:07:23 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@c-76-124-82-88.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:08:27 iaindalton: look it up. 02:08:27 clhs mod 02:08:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_mod.htm 02:08:59 iaindalton: (mod 100) means an integer from 0 to 99 02:09:06 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 02:11:34 heh, mod_lisp does exactly what fastcgi does, except it only works with apache 02:12:35 Xach: thanks; I guess the CLHS has everything 02:12:53 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@63.198.106.143] has joined #lisp 02:13:16 *kpreid* notes http://recycledknowledge.blogspot.com/2009/09/common-lisp-symbols-bound-in-more-than.html in his feeds, points it out to Xach 02:16:15 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 02:17:40 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-168-150.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:18:21 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:18:45 jcowan plugged it earlier 02:18:57 ah 02:19:00 my schedule these days means I only skim irc 02:19:06 except when I'm procrastinating. 02:19:11 he also made incorrect statements about what a missing :use list means... 02:19:19 but then left too quickly 02:19:39 Well, you put it in a minion memo, yes? 02:23:23 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-183.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 02:24:00 -!- iaindalton [n=iain@host-72-174-169-236.cdc-ut.client.bresnan.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1"] 02:25:34 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-183.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 02:28:11 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:28:38 -!- Lemurian [n=lemurian@unaffiliated/lemurian] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:29:40 -!- skeptomai|away [n=cb@67.170.103.113] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:31:08 -!- isabellf [n=isabellf@bas2-montreal31-1242480105.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:31:59 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:34:09 Soulman [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 02:34:29 -!- Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:41:27 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.128.98.167] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:44:19 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 02:48:24 dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f72ca7a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:18 kerimbasol__ [n=kerim@85.107.166.22] has joined #lisp 02:49:39 -!- kerimbasol_ [n=kerim@85.107.131.27] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:49:41 Aszarsha [n=aszarsha@91-164-132-13.rev.libertysurf.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:59 -!- Aszarsha [n=aszarsha@91-164-132-13.rev.libertysurf.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:53:18 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:46 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 02:58:22 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:00:48 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.209.208] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 03:01:10 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f70647b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:02:23 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:03:19 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-75-187.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:05:01 -!- Aszarsha_ [n=aszarsha@88-122-114-172.rev.libertysurf.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:06:02 -!- thesnowdog__ is now known as thesnowdog 03:06:35 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Verlassend"] 03:09:32 -!- slackjaw [n=jolyonwh@cb8faac9.atp.nicta.com.au] has quit ["Computer goes to sleep!"] 03:14:03 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:15:37 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:17:05 -!- marioxcc [n=user@201.132.83.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:17:45 |pepone| [n=pepone@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 03:17:48 Demosthenes [n=demo@c-76-124-82-88.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:00 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:08 <|pepone|> hi, how translate this c code to lisp while(true){printf("foo\n");} 03:20:17 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:20:36 (loop (format t "foo~%")) ? 03:21:13 <|pepone|> thanks Zhivago 03:21:18 brilliant. Best benchmark ever. 03:22:19 lol 03:26:02 slackjaw [n=jolyonwh@203.143.170.201] has joined #lisp 03:27:52 Well, it looks to be one of the few benchmarks that measure a language rather than implementation. 03:28:31 <|pepone|> i trying to write a simple socket server while understad the basics on lisp , what socket library do you think is better to start with 03:28:50 depends on how sipmle 03:28:55 if you mean dead simple, use usocket 03:29:02 iolib if you need anything more than stupidly-simple 03:30:13 <|pepone|> i want it to be scalable and not stupidly-simple 03:30:24 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:30:37 there's your answer, then. 03:30:37 <|pepone|> but i want it to be portable to different clisp implementations / os 03:32:21 there's only one clisp implementation, clisp. 03:33:01 Please refer to the language as CL or Common Lisp. 03:33:19 while (true); ? That's not C. 03:33:31 Could be. 03:33:58 -!- ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.30] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:35:01 right. WHILE( ...) BEGIN ... END also. 03:35:33 I don't think this is a particularly useful conversation to be having. 03:36:10 <|pepone|> pkhuong: so what is allegro , sbcl, etc ? are not clisp implementations? 03:36:30 no, they're common lisp implementation. clisp is also a common lisp implementation. 03:36:38 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:51 -!- aaronfeng [n=aaronfen@c-68-45-137-255.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:43:59 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:45:19 written in C, thus the name 03:45:57 <|pepone|> i see , i m too new to lisp 03:47:57 I'm curious, is there a Lisp dialect/implementation targeted at the same embedded applications as Lua? 03:48:52 thinlisp? 03:54:08 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:25 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:55:00 -!- lpolzer [n=sky@dslb-088-073-236-207.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:55:26 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:57:20 Zhivago: After careful examination I have determined that that is pretty much exactly *not* what I was asking for 03:57:25 But thank you for the recommendation 03:57:57 Makoryu: ECL is meant for embedding in C programs. 03:58:01 depends on what you mean by "embeddable" 03:58:05 i thought you meant ARM 03:58:10 Heh 03:58:14 see also gnu guile 03:58:56 but embeddabiliy-in-C is harmful. better rewrite everything in lisp from scratch 03:59:44 Perhaps we have different ideas of "embedded applications". I guess you want "embed into C" rather than "run on an embedded device." 03:59:56 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@c-76-124-82-88.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:00:56 Hmm, yeah, "embedded applications" was a really terrible choice of words, I guess 04:00:57 Sorry 04:01:10 I did ask for a Lua-alike, though 04:01:27 Yes, I do mean "embed in C" 04:01:37 Makoryu, ECL has a very nice FFI 04:01:42 ECL it is, then. 04:01:49 Or, s/C/$systems_language_of_the_week/ 04:02:12 a downside is that it uses boehm gc, which means that valgrind won't be usable 04:02:16 <|pepone|> I have been testing a bit with hunchentoot, and itwas some how slow compared to apache, i test this with default server in hunchentoot. is there a faster webserver thant hunchentoot in clisp? or is that the default hunchentoot is not tweaked configured for performance? 04:02:33 |pepone|, you can use fastcgi with lisp 04:02:51 |pepone|, don't use clisp, it's crap. use sbcl or some commercial impl 04:03:08 clisp is not crap. 04:03:22 <|pepone|> weirdo: sorry i using sbcl still confused clisp with cl 04:03:35 <|pepone|> i mean a faster web server in common lisp 04:03:51 clisp is pretty meh... 04:04:00 Zhivago, maybe for architectures for which no native-compiler exists. but there's no point to be using clisp on x86/amd64, since it's probably what pepone is using 04:04:27 <|pepone|> weirdo: i using sbcl on linux x86 04:04:39 Oh, there are plenty of good reasons -- it's easy to install, there are binaries for windows, it has readline support built-in. 04:04:49 |pepone|, try fastcgi with my CL-FCGI library. it should give you about 75% performance of libfcgi 04:05:07 It's a pretty conformant implementation -- and it has native code generation if you're stupid enough to turn it on. 04:05:32 yeah, in clisp native-code is slower than the interpreter 04:06:18 pepone: Generally if you're worried about speed I would suggest sticking a cache on the front. 04:06:24 |pepone|, http://www.cliki.net/FastCGI 04:07:22 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:11:36 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:18 dagnachew [n=dagnache@173.179.220.230] has joined #lisp 04:15:12 Good morning! 04:15:35 hey 04:17:25 Zhivago: SBCL ought to have readline(-ish) behavior by default. I think its lack thereof is a bug 04:17:40 Makoryu: For that, we use SLIME 04:18:16 beach: This is simply a workaround for the bug. 04:18:47 I mean, in addition to every other purpose it serves. 04:20:00 That's an, er, interesting point of view. 04:20:55 I can already tell that you will give valuable feedback to many developers here. 04:22:20 Makoryu, if you haven't used lisp for at least 5 years, you have no right to use it outside SLIME *and* complain 04:22:20 :-) 04:22:37 that is, slime or CLIM listener, etc. 04:22:44 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@173.179.220.230] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:22:47 Oh man 04:22:48 You guys 04:23:40 *_3b* sees no problem with thinking it is a bug, as long as you don't actually expect anyone to do anything about it 04:23:47 Makoryu: why don't you put a patch together? 04:23:50 Makoryu: you can use rlwrap to give you command-line editing 04:24:00 Makoryu: that way, you can contribute, instead of adding to the sea of moaning already out there. 04:24:34 and no, you can't do lisp with vim 04:24:35 sykopomp: But if I stop moaning, people won't say hilarious things like "you have no right etc. etc." 04:24:43 weirdo: Sure you can. I learned in vim 04:24:57 "and expect reasonable productivity" 04:25:01 weirdo: PG used vim + copy-paste-to-repl 04:25:22 sykopomp, PG is an old-timer, he knows what he's doing 04:25:30 weirdo: say that to Arc. 04:25:39 ha! 04:25:41 I was coding lisp in vim all day. I did produce something! 04:25:49 Now I'm back to java :( 04:26:05 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.86.248] has joined #lisp 04:26:13 but you made an informed choice of using vim. Makoryu is making an uninformed choice based upon not wanting to learn emacs 04:26:33 weirdo: I learned Emacs first and switched to vim ;) 04:26:37 Makoryu: I'm sure you've read this little exchange wrt readline + lisp? http://clisp.cvs.sourceforge.net/*checkout*/clisp/clisp/doc/Why-CLISP-is-under-GPL 04:27:03 sykopomp, RMS is a filthy liar 04:27:16 sykopomp: Hmm, didn't I say "readline-alike" earlier? I'm sure someone could reimplement readline in CL in half an hour 04:27:19 he can use GPL code in conjunction with BSD-licensed code 04:27:33 Makoryu: half an hour? Go ahead. I'll time you. 04:27:36 RMS is a pathetic demagogue to fool him into switching to GPL 04:27:37 tell me when to start 04:27:48 Makoryu: It's actually non trivial because of how you have to hook into the terminal to get multiline support. 04:27:53 there was some lisp readline code 04:28:01 linedit 04:28:01 herbieB: Oh, damn 04:28:11 Makoryu: I did it to create a CLI for java (using beanshell) to get a repl. 04:28:14 sykopomp: Okay, maybe a full hour 04:28:23 Makoryu: tell me when to start timing it. 04:28:37 Makoryu, http://www.cliki.net/Linedit 04:28:42 I'm sure it's a welcome feature for the small minority of lispers that actually give a shit about sbcl readline support. 04:28:42 sykopomp: And also it would have to be not me, for reasons 04:28:42 here's your readline REPL 04:28:57 Makoryu: for reasons involving "it's easier to bitch"? 04:29:07 *sykopomp* goes back to wasting his time on other stuff. 04:29:25 sykopomp: Reasons involving "I'm not really much of a CL programmer" 04:29:38 you could work on that. 04:29:44 I could 04:29:51 That would take more than an hour, of course 04:29:59 M-x viper-mode is recommended. 04:30:24 Viper-mode is honestly pretty terrible 04:30:30 But never mind that 04:30:33 Anyway 04:30:43 weirdo: That's pretty much exactly what I'm talking about! 04:30:46 Awesome 04:31:53 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:32:18 but slime-repl with paredit is of course much superior 04:33:39 weirdo: Naturally. It's just that SBCL shouldn't have the implicit dependency of SLIME just to make it even a little usable 04:36:09 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.221] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:36:15 Makoryu, perl doesn't have a REPL by default either (and yes, perl has a REPL) 04:37:05 weirdo: And I've always thought that was a pretty severe failing of perl 04:37:21 <_3b> yay for models with normals defined for points. invalid normals. 04:37:30 Makoryu, check out Sepia 04:37:52 though it isn't nearly as usable as SLIME 04:37:57 weirdo: A perl thing? 04:38:02 it fails pretty badly, but still is better than nothing 04:38:03 yes 04:38:29 minion: chant 04:38:30 MORE THAN 04:40:36 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp119.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:40:38 sykopomp, what does that do? 04:41:53 -!- |pepone| [n=pepone@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit ["KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: 3437, sources date: 20090703, built on: 2009/09/09 21:03:17 UTC http://www.kvirc.net/"] 04:42:14 weirdo: it makes minion a bit more assertive about things. 04:42:16 minion: chant 04:42:16 MORE ASSERTIVE 04:43:26 hmm... can he chant "LESS foo"? :D 04:43:26 so it searches for "more" and prints it along with the next word? 04:43:33 more ó 04:43:34 minion, chant 04:43:34 MORE Å 04:43:39 lol 04:43:47 minion has problems with UTF-8 :D 04:43:53 minion: chant! 04:43:55 or, chatn has 04:43:55 MORE LISP 04:43:58 *chant 04:44:22 it's a bit more complex than that. 04:44:39 in fact, it's so complex, I consider it non-deterministic. The code for it is confusing. 04:44:44 listen to minion guys ^^ 04:45:15 drewc: minion's written in lisp! And that's what I'm talking about :D 04:47:11 minion: Are you evil? 04:47:11 yes 04:47:19 And there you have it. 04:47:37 minion: What keeps us dry when it rains? 04:47:37 a man, a plan, a canal - panama 04:47:51 As good an answer as any! 04:47:53 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 04:47:54 brilliant. 04:47:54 minion: are you man? 04:47:55 Would you /please/ stop playing with me? 3 messages in 44 seconds is too many. 04:48:15 minion: would you like to play a game? 04:49:09 Adamant: He doesn't like you 04:49:30 herbieB: he is a cranky bitch 04:49:44 Adamant: He just fits right in on #lisp then. 04:49:51 damn skippy 04:50:25 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 04:50:49 Lemurian [n=lemurian@unaffiliated/lemurian] has joined #lisp 04:56:42 iaindalton [n=iain@host-72-174-169-236.cdc-ut.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:49 everything is better with kittens. there should be a kitten-oriented programming paradigm 04:59:27 -!- jikanter [n=jordan@24-148-12-119.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:03:43 Uhmmm...lolcode.com? 05:04:22 -!- slackjaw [n=jolyonwh@203.143.170.201] has quit ["Computer goes to sleep!"] 05:11:25 Suppose I write a large system called FOO with many packages. Should I call the individual packages FOO.P1, FOO.P2, etc, or perhaps FOO-P1, FOO-P2, etc. or something different altogether? 05:11:59 SLIME's difficulty with the former seems to suggest the latter. 05:12:09 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 05:12:17 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:12:54 beach: I find I like the latter more. Generally autocompletion/colorization plays nicer with hyphens. 05:13:03 beach: last I checked, slime supported the former thanks to a gigamonkey patch. 05:13:20 sykopomp: Ah, I haven't updated SLIME on this computer for a while. 05:13:23 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@68.126.198.233] has joined #lisp 05:13:27 and I've seen multi-package systems using the foo.bar notation before. That's also the standardish notation for hierarchical packages. 05:13:39 *herbieB* also likes it because it looks less like OO languages. 05:13:59 reprore [n=reprore@116.82.73.92] has joined #lisp 05:15:06 Or you could embrace php and go with the backslash? 05:15:32 foo.bar is actually supported by some lisps, and slime abbreviates it to BAR> in the repl. 05:22:00 what do you mean by "supported"? 05:22:06 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 05:22:12 hierarchical packages? 05:22:16 weirdo: yes. 05:24:28 I think -> would be an ingenious package name separator 05:24:38 Even more brilliant than \ 05:24:56 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-17.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:25:06 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:17 Thanks to everyone for the advice. 05:27:05 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-15-39.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:03 -!- jyujin_ [n=jyujin@d221-90-121.commercial.cgocable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:33:47 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:34:11 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has joined #lisp 05:35:21 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A19B8.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:36:06 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 05:36:31 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:00 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C0F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:51 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C0F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:38:26 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C0F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:57 jyujin_ [n=jyujin@d221-90-121.commercial.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:38 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-9-109.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:44:38 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 05:45:16 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C0F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 05:45:57 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C0F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:18 -!- froydnj [n=froydnj@38.113.113.105] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:48:36 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:55 munichlinux [n=munichli@121.241.165.245] has joined #lisp 05:51:04 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:51:04 -!- reprore [n=reprore@116.82.73.92] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:52:07 Adlai [n=adlai@93-173-140-203.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 05:52:21 -!- lsk2 [n=lsk2_4@122.116.5.215] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:53:33 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:57:45 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 06:00:26 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@KD124213182069.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:02:18 reprore [n=reprore@116.82.73.92] has joined #lisp 06:03:02 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:03:14 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:03:40 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:04:37 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:05:52 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 06:11:35 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 06:12:59 majhool [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 06:13:17 Demosthenes [n=demo@c-76-124-82-88.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:13:36 interesting tidbit from my last flight - some passport-related software on Schiphol resembles a curses-based CLIM listener :D 06:15:07 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:18:32 redblue [i=star@ppp026.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 06:22:53 -!- crypto_ is now known as z0d 06:23:25 p_l: photo? 06:23:55 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229172026.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:26:29 z0d: unfortunately none, don't know if I would be allowed to get one. But the method of use reminded me especially of Genera's Listener (at least in 8.5) 06:27:10 there was a prompt and you'd get information and apparently input forms in the same "window" 06:27:31 couldn't get a better look, been boarding the plane :D 06:30:07 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-136.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:30:18 -!- reprore [n=reprore@116.82.73.92] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:30:44 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:31:14 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:34:48 damn, i think i'm staring at an sbcl fasl bug. and it's non-deterministic for extra fun... 06:35:09 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:35:14 -!- majhool [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:37:32 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:37:54 majhool [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 06:38:29 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:38:50 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-15-25.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 06:39:00 well, i don't have a reproducible test case yet. and i may just not see the forest from the tree... 06:39:26 but trying to intern a garbage string seems to be strange 06:40:12 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:52 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:41:10 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:41:22 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:34 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:41:47 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:47 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:42:16 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:43:28 HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 06:44:03 lexa_ [n=lexa_@83.222.5.112] has joined #lisp 06:44:28 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-42.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:44:31 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest13202 06:46:55 -!- Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:46:59 Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 06:51:52 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:52:18 he336 06:52:31 hello* ;) 06:54:03 |Soulman| [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:55:06 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:55:12 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:56:58 daniel__ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:57:44 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:57:45 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:58:41 serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06c9af.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:44 good morning 06:59:39 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:59:44 -!- iaindalton [n=iain@host-72-174-169-236.cdc-ut.client.bresnan.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1"] 07:01:31 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:03:02 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-237.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 07:05:03 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:05:06 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 07:11:57 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:12:14 -!- daniel 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Quit] 07:41:39 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 07:41:47 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:41:48 -!- Anarch [n=olaf@c-24-18-229-67.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:41:49 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:42:21 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:42:29 dizpater [n=dizpater@173.129.202.39] has joined #lisp 07:44:07 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 07:44:35 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 07:46:19 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:46:23 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:46:41 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 07:47:15 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:51:49 -!- kiko_ [n=user@67.207.130.53] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:52:00 kiko_ [n=user@67.207.130.53] 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[Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:25:50 hello :) 08:26:19 Where could i find some good lisp how-tos and exercices ? 08:26:35 minion: please tell Tek3|Eregrith about that-dead-sexy-book 08:26:39 that-dead-sexy-book: An error was encountered in lookup: Cookie of form used in compilation not equal to cookie of form found at runtime.. 08:26:44 :( 08:26:50 minion: pcl? 08:26:55 pcl: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 08:27:05 *sykopomp* gives up 08:27:11 Tek3|Eregrith: http://gigamonkeys.com/book 08:27:16 thank 08:27:21 s 08:27:35 K3NT1S_aw [n=kent@sd-16241.dedibox.fr] has joined #lisp 08:28:12 yeah ! it IS sexy XD 08:28:52 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:29:36 -!- rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-23-247.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:29:52 is emacs lisp really different from classic lisp ? 08:30:15 classic lisp being LISP from back in the 50s? 08:30:47 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:31:06 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:32:04 Tek3|Eregrith: some names are the same, but a lot isn't 08:32:22 okay 08:32:29 I'm a total noob in lisp 08:32:38 just barely seen it in emacs conf 08:32:53 can someone explain to me the idiom 'from soup to nuts'? 08:33:09 but i'd like to learn it :) so thx for the book 08:33:26 Tek3|Eregrith: this channel (and PCL) is for Common Lisp, which is a modern dialect of the lisp family. 08:33:51 scheme, CL, and elisp are all fairly different languages. 08:34:22 fiveop: i think it's meant to juxtapose liquid and solid 08:34:50 fiveop: it means everything 08:34:58 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:35:19 err, "everything 08:35:20 " 08:35:57 ok 08:36:07 makes sense 08:36:45 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-25-4.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 08:36:52 fiveop: wikipedia says it describes the first and last courses of a "full course dinner" 08:38:33 ruepel0r [n=rue@p4FCE0755.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:39:09 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.86.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:40:34 sykopomp: Okay, and is Common Lisp really powerful ? What are the advantages of it above other languages ? 08:40:49 Tek3|Eregrith: what is "powerful"? 08:41:11 Tek3|Eregrith: We have ()'s, what more could you ask for? (: 08:41:29 schme has a point. 08:41:37 Tek3|Eregrith, see topic. it's programmable. 08:42:11 yeah but does it makes some things easier to do ? 08:42:14 Tek3|Eregrith: I think it ends up coming down to "it's programmable, and it's very good at rapid prototyping" 08:42:16 like perl parsing 08:42:23 Tek3|Eregrith, that's a library thing. 08:42:46 sykopomp: rapid prototyping ? of what ? 08:42:49 e.g. cl-ppcre 08:42:50 Tek3|Eregrith, software. 08:43:07 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_application_development 08:43:15 Tek3|Eregrith: you can write a working app very quickly, and completely rewrite it without as much trouble. 08:43:25 because it's less work to get something up and running. 08:43:36 -!- majhool [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has left #lisp 08:43:40 -> That's powerful 08:43:40 :) 08:43:41 majhool [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 08:44:07 depends. 08:44:29 yeah well write/rewrite a working app quickly is a nice skill :) 08:44:32 also, Lisp gives you access to the running program. That's nice. Unlike other languages, you don't have a edit/compile/run cycle, but you rather update your app while it's running, and you can poke around in variables and functions in runtime. Think: gdb, but the ability to /modify/ the code. Interactive development. 08:44:49 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-10-171.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:44:59 majhool pasted "new-union question" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87487 08:45:02 Tek3|Eregrith: if i was to start now our startup (as opposed to 3+ years ago), i'd more seriously consider some of the scheme implementations... 08:45:12 so i have a question about that 08:45:38 it's problem 2 from chapter 3 of paul graham's ansi common lisp 08:45:44 attila_lendvai, which scheme? 08:45:58 the language ? 08:46:07 anyway, it works, but it's not idiomatic, so if you guys are willing to show me better versions i'd really appreciate it 08:46:13 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 08:46:17 probably PLT 08:46:24 Tek3|Eregrith: yes, the language. 08:46:28 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:47:16 tic: i don't know. i'd play a week or two with the more serious implementations and decide based on that 08:47:25 sykopomp: is it more interesting for me to get to scheme more than lisp if i don't know both ? 08:47:55 Tek3|Eregrith: I don't know. I liked starting with common lisp, and I still like CL better than scheme. 08:48:02 i think you should take the "rapid prototyping" nonsense with half a ton of salt: the truth is that it takes quite /some/ effort even in CL to create solid software, and the same is also true with regards to the language: you need to invest some time before payoff and seeing where it really helps you. 08:48:03 although PLT scheme is indeed pretty cool. 08:48:05 Tek3|Eregrith: once you know cl or scheme, then the differences between the two are more in the details category... 08:48:28 hypno: I feel like it's worth pointing out Dan Weinreb's talk when talking about rapid prototyping with CL. 08:49:52 blandest [n=user@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 08:49:53 attila_lendvai: Okay, so i'll start with CL 08:50:08 sykopomp: the "transaction processing..."-thingy talk or which? 08:50:14 yeah. 08:50:24 as a beginner and eventual amateur i've thoroughly enjoyed scheme and been a little disconcerted by common lisp 08:50:33 the book you linked me is for CL ? 08:50:39 correct. 08:50:42 Practical _Common Lisp_. 08:51:42 hypno: it's true that it takes some time to get a solid application (in any language, really), but I think being able to write a shitty version first has let me try different approaches and actually -see- the good/bad things. Specially when I'm not sure how to approach a problem. 08:52:11 for me, it's less about the rapid prototyping, more about being able to -play- with stuff, as opposed to committing to a design in my head which is usually completely wrong. 08:53:58 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:54:46 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:55:01 # is not a character output stream. <-- this means something isn't using fd-stream utilities right? 08:55:46 sykopomp: indeed. an interactive system you could sit down and talk too and "think design" and all that. i am all with you there. 08:56:00 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-237.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:56:02 hypno: it depends on the programmer. 08:57:00 but for me, I'm all for "give me a playground, not a stack of punchcards" 08:58:29 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 08:59:01 is anybody porting cl-memcached to SBCL? 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09:28:47 ole3: you should use postmodern instead (although i've never tried clisp-postgres) 09:29:26 attila_lendvai: yes or clsql, but i don't have the choice 09:29:34 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.86.248] has joined #lisp 09:30:17 well, ime, clisp extensions are rather good, but i always recompile myself. 09:30:42 it is ffi based, postmodern goes through the postgres socket 09:30:57 i suspect that the socket way has less surprises 09:31:43 -!- dizpater [n=dizpater@173.129.202.39] has quit [Client Quit] 09:32:03 ok, thanks for the help. i will compile clisp. 09:32:12 well, i prefer the socket way of life too, not the least because i feel safer when not in FFI-land, but i've also experienced really shitty performance with sockets compared to the libs. 09:33:27 *lnostdal* wonders whether postmodern uses or can use local/unix sockets and whether that would matter wrt. performance 09:33:30 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:33:56 hypno: Hmm, that last sentence of yours is a bit confusing -- did you get part of it backward? 09:34:10 manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6DBDA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:34:31 i think the ffi way also goes through the same socket way when the db is remote, which is the case when you are concerned about performance... 09:35:34 Zhivago: sorry. i ment that i got a lot better performance with FFI:ing into the database libraries, instead of using sockets. 09:35:57 robyonrails [n=roby@host197-20-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:36:20 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:36:22 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:39 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 09:36:40 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Client Quit] 09:37:06 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 09:37:40 attila_lendvai: well, i only remember because this was actually a big problem for me at the time (years ago). i'm sure the modern stuff is a lot better tho. :) 09:38:21 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:39:56 -!- DrForr [n=drforr@pool-173-55-19-85.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:41:19 -!- ole3 [n=user@62.96.71.236] has left #lisp 09:41:25 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:43:00 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:43:51 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:46:23 -!- HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:46:55 munichlinux [n=munichli@121.241.165.245] has joined #lisp 09:49:40 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:51:11 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:51:19 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:51:38 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C0F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 09:52:05 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@68.126.198.233] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:52:25 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:04:27 HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 10:06:37 nikla [n=nlg@h-63-40.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 10:10:03 nikla pasted "faculty (iterative)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87490 10:10:34 How come my faculty function returns nil= 10:10:36 ? 10:11:21 wrong indentation 10:11:33 and hence wrong paranethesis 10:12:11 pretend the parenthesis are correct ;) 10:12:28 and i think it should be named factorial 10:12:41 the function returns correct value when using if, but not when using cond 10:12:47 nikla: i pretend, and voila, it doesn't return nil anymore! 10:13:01 funny guy 10:13:07 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-246-229.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:13:11 well, i'm serious 10:13:38 So, your saying its not an error? 10:13:52 in case anybody seen the "Square is not a Rectangle" post on reddit, here is a relevant CL post from me: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9mvq1/a_square_is_a_rectangle/ 10:16:00 stassats` annotated #87490 "balanace 'em all" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87490#1 10:18:32 levy, http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:X79h_7K6bKUJ:paste.lisp.org/display/76968 .. change-class might not be a very good idea for this :} 10:18:57 oh, you used change-class too .. heh 10:19:27 fusss_ [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:19:35 levy: (in-package :cl-user) is more idiomatic, no? 10:19:58 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:19:59 -!- nikla [n=nlg@h-63-40.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 10:20:01 benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-124-177-162-112.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:20:09 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 10:20:13 lnostdal, what's wrong with change-class? 10:20:14 a nice thing about it is that the identity of the objects are maintained 10:22:05 perhaps nothing, levy 10:22:42 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 10:24:47 benny [n=benny@i577A19D3.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:25:18 isabellf [n=isabellf@bas2-montreal31-1242480105.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 10:25:27 -!- benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-124-177-162-112.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:25:37 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:28:15 i'll upvote your post .. but it is probably futile; the angry c# and php hackers will soon kill it .. :) 10:32:05 aaronfeng [n=aaronfen@c-68-45-137-255.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:32:40 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:33:16 good morning 10:33:33 afternoon, sorry 10:35:01 levy, upvoted for great justice, and downvoted morons 10:35:03 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:35:36 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:37:43 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 10:38:46 weirdo, thanks, the comments so far are not so useful 10:39:26 hello mvilleneuve :) 10:39:27 it's worth looking at the other topic, how long is that: http://cafe.elharo.com/programming/a-square-is-not-a-rectangle/ 10:41:10 what a productive day; had 10 days of dry spell and today everything just jelled together 10:41:41 got too lazy porting cl-memcached to sbcl, decided to use hashtables and mutexes :-) 10:42:17 i keep all the user session on the originating hunchentoot instance anway, so it made sense to keep the database cache in there as well 10:42:42 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-136.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:43:02 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-136.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 10:43:11 with hashtables you can remove both squid and memcached; too many moving parts, too many server-side IPC, sockets, etc. keep everything compact in a single instance and do nothing more than a function call. 10:44:15 for those interested in trying out weblocks web framework (http://weblocks.viridian-project.de/), I created an easy installer to generate a self contained weblocks project with all the dependencies "frozen" within the project. It takes about 15 seconds to download and generate the project. All you need is sbcl, curl and tar. http://github.com/aaronfeng/weblocks-install/ the README contains more info. all suggestions are welcome. 10:44:34 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72ca7a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:45:00 -!- HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:46:26 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-127-196.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Success] 10:46:45 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-127-196.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 10:47:11 aaronfeng: cheers! 10:47:27 aaronfeng: are you using weblocks on in production? 10:49:41 fusss: no, I'm not at the moment. But there are definitely weblocks apps in production. I been playing around with weblocks on and off. 10:50:07 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:09 fusss: but I'm toying with a couple ideas... 10:50:17 aaronfeng: yes, the MIT medical thing and HFSBO, along with that scandinavian game 10:50:24 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A19D3.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:50:33 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-136.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:51:02 fusss: how about you? 10:51:21 vanilla hunchentoot through and through 10:53:55 fusss: if you ever get a chance give weblocks a try, the installer only takes less than couple minutes to download and compile :) 10:54:12 yeah, i have weblocks on two machines :-) 10:54:25 great. 10:54:32 i am probably the only one running it on Win32 LW :-P 10:54:38 took a little patching 10:54:54 wow... I would say so.. 10:55:05 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483DFDA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:55:09 i fuzzed the asds and removed dependence on symbolic links and unix-style paths 10:55:14 DrForr [n=drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:17 jikanter [n=jordan@24-148-12-119.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 10:57:28 libcl, anyone tried it out? 10:57:29 -!- isabellf [n=isabellf@bas2-montreal31-1242480105.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:58:46 tic: took a look at it, but i already had all the libraries 10:59:04 http://libcl.com/libcl-current/index.html 10:59:28 mudballs, clbuild, etc. I don't understand the purpose of libcl. 11:00:23 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 11:03:11 is it normal that sbcl does not signal a warning when redefining a macro?! 11:03:29 i keep piping in (defmacro x () ) and no warning comes 11:03:49 no warning here. 11:04:10 Xof: any wisdom to share? 11:05:13 sbcl has a single environment, and defmacro is basically (eval-when (:all :the :time) (%defmacro ...)) 11:05:33 so unless you want a warning for every single definition of a macro when you compile-and-load something, you don't get warnings 11:06:16 so it's not completely trivial just to stick in a (warn ...); you need to do some work 11:06:40 this lead me into about the longest debugging session of the past 3 years of lisping... due to some package issues an aif macro was redefined and i was tracing the sbcl compiler to be able to catch it 11:07:16 because the error came through looking for a completely unrelated package while loading the fasl 11:07:43 the solution is easy: don't use aif 11:07:50 and only because some info slot of debug-fun was storing intermediate macroexpansion state (?) 11:07:50 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:07:57 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 11:08:00 hello 11:08:04 or don't cut&paste anaphoric macros in every little project ? 11:08:36 cp2_ [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 11:08:41 come on, i'm talking about the meta-problem here... by now i know the solution myself too 11:08:54 or "actually work with your upstreams rather than forking the world and then saying that it's too hard to work to make modifications acceptable"? 11:09:44 Xof: what are you talking about? the only forks we have is slime, and this is completely unrelated to forks 11:09:45 attila_lendvai: you could change defmacro and make it warn every time you redefine one 11:10:44 the only sin we made was trying to sidestap the lame lisp system management tools and try lowering the number of dependencies by some small copy/paste's 11:10:59 sidestep* 11:12:06 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 11:13:17 ignas_ [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 11:13:38 Xof: ...but while we are at it, could you please elaborate on the "it's too hard to work to make modifications acceptable" part? what exactly are you thinking of? because i have numerous pending threads with patches *and* questions what to change for acceptance on various mailing lists... 11:13:44 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 11:13:52 hi 11:15:00 ...and before you bring up the single slime-devel story, please count the number of people who had trouble there with the maintainer... 11:16:31 attila_lendvai, really, there are no more forks in dwim? 11:17:25 weirdo: a fork and a publicly available repo temporarily holding patches until acceptance in upstream is two different things. if you wash the two together then... 11:17:52 ok, how about that hack you showed off on sbcl-devel for your component class initialization? 11:17:59 attila_lendvai, you could at least rename the system and the package 11:18:12 not that that's the best example, just the most recent 11:19:02 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:19:11 should i stop working while the maintainer is on holiday? should i tell my users that for an indefinite time our framework is not installable? or maybe put on a repo holding our patches, write a mail to the author, and go on working... 11:20:09 weirdo: ?! for a freaking 5 line patch that most of the time reaches upstream in a week or two? rename the system?! have you ever heard of distributed version control? 11:20:44 attila_lendvai, for all other systems except dwim stuff, i can use the official repos without any trouble 11:20:53 Xof: that's an unfortunate optimization in one of our projects, redefining some sbcl internals to keep things fast. it's far from a fork... 11:21:14 ugh 11:21:19 weirdo: which means what? 11:21:52 attila_lendvai, clbuild install foo, then (require 'foo). and it compiled and runs 11:22:09 just like this 11:22:33 i guess i shouldn't be an ungrateful bastard since you actually produced high-quality software 11:22:36 make-instance was too slow on a profiling session, 10x slower. after a few M-. and half an hour i saw an easy way to speed it, which stopped hindering development... (with 10 kludge comments) 11:22:39 much more than i ever did for lisp 11:23:13 attila_lendvai, does the fix break CLHS/AMOP? if not, it would be nice seeing it integrated 11:23:25 weirdo: so, do you work on a system that depends on 30+ other systems? 11:24:06 weirdo: it's an extension to some internal optimization. de-pessimizing it with a few special-case if's that are completely project-dependent 11:24:17 look, I'm not objecting to you doing what you do -- I'm just saying that it demotivates me from working to help fix your problems, because it takes a vast amount of time for me to work out where you're starting from 11:24:36 attila_lendvai, i try to write libraries which depend on as little as possible 11:24:54 weirdo: at some point, someone has to do stuff with a bunch of libraries :-) 11:24:57 most of them don't depend upon anything other than CL; others depend on closer-mop only 11:24:59 benny [n=benny@i577A19D3.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:25:20 -!- munichlinux [n=munichli@121.241.165.245] has quit ["Foo"] 11:25:52 Xof: i've never asked anyone for help without producing a testcase, or up to more extent than a few minute brainstorming... (it was levy yesterday asking about the same problem here, i wasn't following) 11:26:54 Is there any lisper out there dedicated to Intentional Programming? 11:27:26 *stassats`* programs unintentionally, while asleep 11:27:42 bah, this is waste of time... i felt surprising hostility and i started protecting myself, but would that help any...? 11:28:14 meingbg: i (and levy) was working for intentsoft at the early days 11:28:17 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:38 *attila_lendvai* leaves for lunch 11:29:34 Xof: and before i forget, thanks for the details on the defmacro situation 11:30:07 you're welcome 11:30:51 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:30:54 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:34:06 -!- ignas_ [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:35:38 Coliveira [n=Coliveir@69.248.128.195] has joined #lisp 11:38:00 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:39:24 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 11:39:41 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:39:52 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-149-218.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 11:40:48 kerimbasol_ [n=kerim@85.107.158.2] has joined #lisp 11:40:48 -!- kerimbasol__ [n=kerim@85.107.166.22] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:41:11 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:42:15 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 11:42:17 ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-71-12.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 11:45:14 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:45:34 *levy* is reading log 11:46:48 Coliveira__ [n=Coliveir@c-69-248-128-195.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:49:54 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:50:09 to fork or not to fork that is the question 11:51:17 -!- spacebat_ is now known as spacebat 11:51:24 anyway, there's always a good reason when we are forking anything; believe it or not, we don't want to waste time and do that just for fun... 11:52:42 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@c-69-248-128-195.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:53:41 -!- Coliveira [n=Coliveir@69.248.128.195] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 11:54:27 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-183.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 11:54:29 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 11:56:22 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:58:00 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:58:11 myrkraverk` [n=johann@fire-out.ru.is] has joined #lisp 11:59:40 I can't find Lisp in a Box for Freebsd :( 11:59:50 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:52 Looked the website, only proposing for linux and windows 12:00:05 And not in the ports either :S 12:00:59 Tek3|Eregrith: the lispbox(en) for linux should be rather portable to freebsd. You only need to recompile emacs and the CL implementation. 12:01:21 IIRC there was one for MacOSX. 12:02:19 the-ruediger [n=the-rued@188-23-71-12.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:03:27 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:06:07 -!- aaronfeng [n=aaronfen@c-68-45-137-255.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:06:47 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:08:28 ignas_ [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 12:11:53 -!- the-ruediger [n=the-rued@188-23-71-12.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:12:08 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@c-76-124-82-88.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 12:14:39 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:41 -!- myrkraverk` [n=johann@fire-out.ru.is] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:15:13 pr_ [n=pr@87.156.174.38] has joined #lisp 12:16:12 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:18:53 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:18:54 -!- pr_ is now known as pr 12:22:04 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-246-229.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:23:28 Liam2 [n=healy@129-2-175-69.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:23:46 -!- Liam2 [n=healy@129-2-175-69.wireless.umd.edu] has left #lisp 12:24:12 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:27:58 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-246-229.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 12:30:52 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:32:22 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp026.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:33:12 matimago- [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:30 -!- matimago- is now known as matimago 12:34:17 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:34:28 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 12:34:39 attila_lendvai: you guys are doing a lot of heavy duty engineering, so are the Core Server guys; why don't you have a chat and see if you can work together? 12:34:50 *fusss* does the least amount of engineering possible 12:35:32 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 12:36:15 -!- jkantz_ [n=jkantz@63.107.91.99] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:36:59 brb, good nite 12:37:00 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"] 12:38:00 Liam2 [n=healy@129-2-175-69.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:38:24 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 12:39:05 -!- Liam2 [n=healy@129-2-175-69.wireless.umd.edu] has left #lisp 12:39:08 Liam2 [n=healy@129-2-175-69.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:39:13 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-84-210.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:39:17 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 12:39:17 -!- Liam2 [n=healy@129-2-175-69.wireless.umd.edu] has left #lisp 12:39:22 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-96.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:47:04 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:50:34 -!- Coliveira__ [n=Coliveir@c-69-248-128-195.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:51:24 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:53:38 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:55 c|mell [n=cmell@x250036.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 12:54:02 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 12:54:03 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483DFDA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:54:14 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 12:57:03 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 12:58:53 younder [n=jthing@251.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 12:59:59 aaronfeng [n=aaronfen@38.98.248.211] has joined #lisp 13:01:01 coliv [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has joined #lisp 13:01:23 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:02:04 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:02:14 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:21 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:05:36 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.214.83] has joined #lisp 13:09:40 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1"] 13:10:11 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442325.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 13:11:56 sohail [n=sohail@76-10-170-203.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 13:14:07 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:37 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250036.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:14:50 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:18:30 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-42.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:18:55 c|mell [n=cmell@x250012.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 13:20:20 fusss, that would be great but I don't think that it would work out 13:22:25 brickhazel_ [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.79] has joined #lisp 13:24:14 adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:25:14 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:28:16 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:31:14 -!- K3NT1S_aw [n=kent@sd-16241.dedibox.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:33:47 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 13:38:13 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:38:20 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:38:38 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 13:39:13 male_terran [n=Male_Ter@ip98-162-159-132.pn.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:48 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@81-174-49-12.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 13:41:23 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has joined #lisp 13:41:36 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:42:08 hello 13:43:04 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.86.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:44:05 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:44:23 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 13:44:39 hello fe[nl]ix 13:44:51 hi spiaggia 13:48:15 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:48:47 *adlai* struggles the with X 13:48:48 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:49:01 *adlai* thinks it's time we had CLX-server 13:49:18 adlai: nyef will deliver 13:49:21 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 13:49:47 Xach: this is being worked on!? awesome! 13:50:06 s/awesome/stumpwm/ 13:50:13 Xach: if somebody manages to pay him, maybe 13:50:34 nobody paid him for sbcl/win32! 13:50:47 of course, it languishes in an incomplete state... 13:50:52 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-136.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:51:14 Xach: making a good(not just barely usable) X server is hard 13:51:20 adlai: It is called CLXS. I think there is even some documentation. 13:51:20 levy: are you Levente on reddit? 13:51:33 Xof, now you got me 13:51:41 Xach: IMO, a lot more than porting sbcl to win32 13:51:42 your square/rectangle code invokes undefined behaviour 13:52:12 Xof, well, that might just mean that we have to define it 13:52:19 ok, and what is that? 13:52:21 or if it doesn't, it should: change-class of a specialized parameter to a method within that method's dynamic scope is doomed to disaster 13:53:09 munichlinux [n=munichli@121.241.165.245] has joined #lisp 13:53:18 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:53:19 "This implies that a programmer must not use change-class inside a method if any methods for that generic function access any slots, or the results are undefined." 13:53:27 can someone suggest me good book on natural language processing? 13:56:32 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-168.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 13:57:28 Xof, change-class is the tail call 13:57:36 so I don't see too much trouble there 13:57:47 it is right now 13:58:19 Xof, well, obviously you can change any code to use undefined behavior 13:58:27 levy: what if there's an :after method? 13:58:30 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.86.248] has joined #lisp 13:58:44 yes, but it's fairly normal to convert CLOS tail calls into non-tail calls, just through the usual definitions of auxiliary methods and method combination 13:58:46 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250012.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:58:52 This constraint means that CHANGE-CLASS should probably be rather called from a function than a method... 13:59:10 and from a function that is not called within methods, either 13:59:16 Indeed. 13:59:34 I also think that (make-instance 'rectangle ...) not returning a direct instance of RECTANGLE is undefined behaviour 13:59:58 proun [n=proun@cpe-76-180-85-22.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:00:57 does anyone happen to have an example of cl-devil in action? i'm following along with some opengl C and it's not quite working 14:01:08 Xof, anyway the point of that post is not that it can be implemented in Common Lisp, but rather that it can be implemented if the object can change its type runtime 14:01:13 proun: what is cl-devil? 14:01:49 *Xach* finds more info, but not enlightenment 14:01:59 cl bindings for devil, an image loading lib: http://openil.sourceforge.net/ 14:02:15 supposely works well with opengl 14:02:19 -!- ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:02:38 gotcha, thanks. 14:03:16 cl-devi here, but no examples: http://www.ohloh.net/p/cl-devil 14:03:17 minion: cl-devil 14:03:22 cl-devil: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 14:03:29 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:03:37 minion: indeed, those are unreasonable conditions 14:03:43 indeed, those are unreasonable conditions: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 14:04:04 minion: yes, no need to repeat yourself! 14:04:09 yes, no need to repeat yourself: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 14:04:19 *adlai* sad 14:04:58 minion: CHANT 14:04:58 MORE THAN 14:05:07 minion: babel 14:05:12 babel: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 14:05:23 ?? 14:05:26 cliki works 14:05:53 fe[nl]ix: maybe minion and cliki had a fight? 14:06:13 oh, family business 14:06:25 yeah 14:06:48 you know maybe minion felt a bit dominated, always running errands 14:06:49 lisppaste's web interface doesn't work properly too 14:06:53 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:55 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:06:57 lisppaste: url? 14:06:57 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 14:07:05 now that's a reliable bot! 14:07:16 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 14:07:19 stassats`: what do you mean ? 14:07:23 adlai: this is one bot, actually 14:07:30 http://paste.lisp.org/display/87496 is blank for me 14:07:32 djkthx [n=yacin@lawn-143-215-206-166.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 14:07:53 but i can fetch it from xml-rpc 14:07:55 stassats`: minion, lisppaste, and specbot are all run from the same program? 14:08:25 yeah, they're in the same image 14:08:38 I guess that makes sense given how they cooperate; for example, the result of `minion: lisppaste' 14:08:56 minion: paste 87496? 14:08:57 Paste number 87496: "mcabber" by ano in None. http://paste.lisp.org/display/87496 14:09:13 lisppaste: paste 87654? 14:09:36 minion: paste 87654? 14:09:41 paste 87654: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 14:10:01 hmm. 14:10:11 minion doesn't like you 14:12:02 *adlai* offers minion an electronically-composed cookie 14:12:03 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:12:24 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 14:12:51 -!- munichlinux [n=munichli@121.241.165.245] has quit ["Foo"] 14:13:33 sohail [n=sohail@76-10-170-203.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 14:13:49 ah got it.. missing a car in there! 14:14:07 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:14:34 does anyone here read planet.cliki.net? 14:14:57 I receive emails. 14:15:08 Is there a mail list? If not, then I've got a program that does... 14:15:32 there is no mail list 14:15:56 So I read it thru rss2email 14:16:53 -!- delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:17:00 ok 14:17:07 Xach: i will from now on 14:17:37 *Xach* doesn't read it, but must update its DNS records 14:17:50 *stassats`* is reading cliki recent changes 14:18:37 *Xach* emails drewc about changing the DNS 14:19:09 Xach: at the end there is "For older items, see the Planet Lisp Archives." 14:19:22 but this is planet cliki, not Lisp 14:19:57 stassats`: thanks for the info. i will update it sometime. 14:21:20 TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has joined #lisp 14:21:22 and 14:21:22 14:22:01 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-215-89.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:05 stassats`: did you see the "beta" part in red? 14:22:20 :-) 14:22:26 yep, doesn't that mean "bug reports are welcome"? 14:22:28 it is so beta, it might collapse at any moment 14:22:35 Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 14:22:49 Downgrade it to Alpha. 14:23:39 i didn't know anyone actually read the site until i moved servers a few years ago and stopped maintaining it. i thought maybe those few readers had stopped. 14:24:17 Sometimes I make additionnal edits when I see something has changed. 14:24:39 sometimes edits are interesting 14:26:11 yes...i just don't like how cliki's feed is formatted 14:26:27 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:31:07 Xof: what's the exact date of the sbcl birthday bash? 14:31:42 14th-15th December 14:31:44 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:32:04 facilities can be made available for longer, but that's going to be the Event 14:32:13 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Verlassend"] 14:32:41 sohail1 [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:34:14 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:35:48 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:35:59 -!- anekos [n=anekos@pl716.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:36:05 pepone [n=pepone@91.117.11.105] has joined #lisp 14:36:23 Xof: I just walked into additional funds, so I'll try and confirm in the next couple weeks. 14:36:46 wow, cool, transatlanticism 14:37:26 also, how do people walk into random additional funds? My inquiring mind wants to know 14:38:05 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 14:38:10 You need to be in the right place. 14:38:31 become temporarily popular with french web teens 14:38:34 (in my case) 14:38:37 One where unassigned random funds may be met to become additionnal. 14:39:04 i will not be attending the birthday, though. 14:39:06 Why French only? 14:39:11 Xof: some scholarship committee decided it'd be a good idea to wait 6 months between making their choices and publicising them. 14:39:19 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:39:27 anekos [n=anekos@pl712.nas925.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:39:32 matimago: it is a mystery to me 14:41:06 french web teens. Hmmm. 14:41:39 I've seen Flickr.com has something like your gadgets, to edit pictures. 14:41:45 -!- adlai is now known as Adlai 14:42:19 yes. there are several more popular tools. 14:43:11 zero of them are lisp-powered, however 14:43:29 I wondered if you'd sold them some of yours... 14:43:50 hello. i have a program running on petite chez scheme 7.3, but not on 7.9, probably due to differences between r5rs and r6rs. i cannot find an option to petite to run r5rs-compatible, nor can i find a download for an older version (7.3) of petite chez scheme. does anybody know more? 14:44:05 schoppenhauer: #scheme should know more 14:44:08 scheme experts are on #scheme. 14:44:12 matimago: ah, yes. but generally to small-scale operators. 14:44:14 ok 14:44:15 thx 14:44:31 -!- sohail1 [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:49:36 would someone mind looking at a snippet, i'm workinf with a c lib and i dont understand how to get a pointer 14:49:55 lisppaste: url? 14:49:56 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 14:50:34 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 14:50:43 matimago: lisppaste isn't quite working right now. 14:50:48 proun pasted "cl-devil 1" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87502 14:51:08 based on this tutorial: http://gpwiki.org/index.php/DevIL:Tutorials:Basics 14:51:44 the function "works"m which is good. however when trying to delete the image at the end i can't get at it 14:52:57 il:gen-images retuns an image-id and what looks like a mem address in a list 14:54:30 Yes, so there's no pointer, only a "handle". 14:54:44 texid 14:55:02 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 14:55:20 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:55:41 ive tried giving it mt text id, but it complains about it not being a system-area-pointer 14:55:43 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 14:55:46 However these function take a pointer to an uint. 14:56:51 Sorry, but lisppaste doesn't work for me, I can't get your paste... 14:57:08 yeah it let me paste, now i cant see it 14:57:59 We'll regretfully have to use pastebin.org... 14:58:17 *stassats`* sees the paste, but doesn't know the answer 14:58:50 I just see a blank white page :-/ 14:59:01 *stassats`* uses lisppaste.el 14:59:07 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 14:59:16 http://pastebin.com/m5ba21289 14:59:40 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:59:42 stassats`: lisppaste.el needs hacking 14:59:54 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:00:08 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:14 right, i can share my modified version 15:00:20 coderdad_ [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 15:00:25 -!- coderdad_ [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:00:43 coderdad_ [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 15:01:31 stassats`: what hacks have you made? 15:01:32 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:01:41 i don't remember 15:01:59 my only complaints (so far) are that it doesn't let you set the expiration, and it doesn't let you select the syntax formatting 15:02:15 -!- aaronfeng [n=aaronfen@38.98.248.211] has quit [] 15:02:17 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-67-155.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:02:46 i only made it working for me, nothing additional 15:03:13 oh. It worked for me from the start... I'd like to add those features at some point, though, if I can suppress the gag reflex to write the elisp. 15:03:33 What does lisppaste.el do? I mean, just read or read and write to the pastie? 15:03:40 it's ok, once you (require 'cl) 15:03:53 TDT: yes, basically 15:04:42 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.170.129] has joined #lisp 15:05:03 That's pretty cool - hah, wow I didn't know there was a cl module for emacs, I thought one had to run everything through slime or something. 15:05:40 TDT: it adds CL-like functions and operators to elisp. it's not "real" cl. 15:05:44 proun: have a look at with-images in utilities.lisp 15:05:59 proun: instead of using gen-images...delete-images, use with-images. 15:06:36 Xach: Ah, so stuff from asdf probably wouldn't work then I'm assuming? 15:07:07 certainly wouldn't 15:07:08 matimago: i'll look at it further, initially i was having problems with giving it the proper args, ill try angain 15:07:18 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:07:35 Greetings. 15:07:36 proun: to give a proper argument to delete-image, you will have to use CFFI. Have a look at with-images to see how. 15:07:42 Where in the world is cl-pipes? 15:07:56 levy, attila_lendvai: would you mind moving the key bindings out of dwim-init.el into some other file which is loaded conditionally? 15:07:58 That's unfortunate then. I was hoping I could get by needing to learn elisp for stuff, and continue work on CL :) 15:08:06 TDT: no, not at all. it's a facsimile of CL, not a real CL environment. 15:08:24 matimago: i see, thanks - i'll look at the further 15:08:34 kami-: sounds reasonable, will do 15:08:53 kami-, not at all 15:09:03 attila_lendvai: I could do that, too. And send in a patch. 15:09:17 TDT: if you know CL, learning elisp is not a problem 15:09:29 kami-: i have a sketch how to do it, i'll do it soon 15:09:59 stassats`: elisp so far hasn't been, it's just another thing I'm messing with...so far the differences aren't extreme, well minus the way the format statement is done, and the new functions available but yeah. 15:10:42 attila_lendvai: OK. Thank you. 15:12:00 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:12:06 TDT: you could launch emacs-cl which is a CL implementatin written in emacs lisp. It would allow you to write emacs stuff in Common Lisp. But it's not a full CL implementation (just a big subset), and you would have to know well emacs lisp as well as Common Lisp to really make use of it... 15:14:38 Hmmm, cl-pipes is not what I thought it was. Can anyone suggest an abstraction layer run-program? 15:14:40 ejs [n=eugen@31-54-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:49 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177074171.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:30 -!- qebab [i=finnrobi@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:16:02 tmh: external-program (see cliki, minion seems to me having trouble connecting) 15:16:03 tmh: external-program 15:16:06 matimago: That's pretty cool, but I think I'll just keep them in their needed areas - elisp is great for some stuff cl for others..and doesn't hurt for me to know both really well eventually :) I can also look into slime and see if there's a godo way to load that automatically in the background, and pass stuff to it as I need to run something from CL (if that ever needs to happen) 15:16:21 Thanks, will look into it. 15:16:50 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-25-4.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:16:55 maybe offtopic question, but I'm curious if McCLIM has a certain feature similar to SLIME's presentations, which apparently originated on the Genera OS, where you could move your mouse over an object, and it would highlight it, from there you could copy/inspect/manipulate that object in various ways(at least the object that is EQ to that "presentation"). I tried McCLIM the other day, but the backend I was using was a bit buggy, so I have no idea if this feat 15:16:57 TDT: an alternative would be to use climacs. 15:17:05 TDT: then you'd be 100% CL. 15:17:28 ljames: yes, McCLIM and CLIM have presentations. 15:17:28 ljames: it does have presentations 15:17:45 what backend were you using? 15:17:46 ah, so I guess I just need to use a better backend to see them? 15:18:08 There's no default command to inspect arbitrary presentations. 15:18:15 I tried CLX, but I used a Windows X server(XMing), I should try it on a real Unix-like OS instead. 15:18:22 there's only one backend actually usable, no much choice 15:18:53 matimago: Hmm, hah, that's an idea, I haven't used that yet...I do enjoy emacs quite a bit, but for compare and contrast, I could see it beneficial to try both. 15:19:19 Climacs is different in many ways... it's more like Zmacs than GNU Emacs. 15:20:02 But can anybody be considered a CL hacker if he keeps using GNU emacs? 15:20:06 Any vi users use viper-mode + slime? 15:20:18 Am I a bad person if I refuse to use external-program because it is LGPL? 15:20:26 Considering the incompleteness of Climacs... 15:20:31 *Adlai* had to use vi for a bit to edit config files while reinstalling his system, and might just have been tempted over to the dark side... 15:20:43 tmh: It's llgpl, no? 15:20:44 The point! Let's use it, to contribute! 15:21:00 I don't care too much about licensing ... that just seemed like the lispy one. 15:21:42 sellout: Hmm, the source says LLGPL, but the LICENSE file is LGPL 15:22:20 What was the purpose of the creation of climacs? I mean, so far it looks much like an emacs clone, and just written in CL. is there another reason why it was created? 15:22:48 No, that's the point. 15:22:53 tmh: Just added a task to fix that. 15:22:55 There are problems with emacs lisp. 15:23:22 okflo [n=user@91-115-87-151.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:23:25 and emacs-framework 15:23:39 wasabi [n=wasabi@nttkyo713154.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:23:44 TDT: you get tighter (currently too tight maybe) integration. 15:23:47 TDT: eg. there's no threads, no packages, emacs lisp "packages" are of uneven quality (you can easily find 500-line long unreadable emacs lisp 'functions'...), etc. 15:23:59 Climacs was written to be an editor for a CLIM environment. 15:23:59 sellout: So what does LLGPL obligate me to? I'd be using this with closed source software. 15:24:06 -!- wasabi [n=wasabi@nttkyo713154.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 15:24:10 TDT: the only advantage of GNU emacs, is that it's at version 23, and there's a lot of tools built upon it. 15:24:23 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@71-34-77-216.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:24:34 tmh: I think you can ... *shrug* 15:24:44 tmh: You would have to give the sources of the libraries, and allow the user to replace these libraries by their own, in your program. 15:24:44 tmh: in spirit, nothing as long as you don't modify the library itself. 15:24:50 wasabi [n=wasabi@nttkyo713154.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:24:57 pam0 [n=pam@mail2.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 15:25:00 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-28-152.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:06 hi 15:25:11 drewc: herep 15:25:14 hi pam0 15:25:40 matimago: Heh, my user would probably be like, "WTF am I supposed to do with this?", referring to the sources. 15:26:02 matimago: Yeah, emacs being at 23 does have some advantages and all that too. 15:26:13 pkhuong: I have no problem contributing back my modifications, so that's ok. 15:26:15 -!- blandest [n=user@85.204.33.242] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:27:19 sellout: I'm assuming you are Greg Pfeil? 15:27:27 tmh: Yep 15:27:33 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:27:42 tmh: users may need education. 15:27:57 i'm doing a nthcdr setf expander, and my question is: should i just to as i would for a car setf expander, where in the reader form i'll call nthcdr all the way, or should i store a variable with the cons in question and just return its cdr in the reader form? 15:28:15 sellout: Firefox won't load blog.technomadic.org, reprots it as an 'attack site'. What are you trying to push? ;-) 15:28:23 Ah, crap. 15:28:31 Old WordPress ... hooray. 15:28:43 I should just move to wp.com 15:28:45 my question is only pertinent if the value form changes place somehow, because if it does not, storing the cons seems like a nice optimization 15:29:28 i had luck with tumblr, you can at least change your css there 15:29:33 milanj [n=milan@79.101.79.143] has joined #lisp 15:30:05 gigamonkey: are you peter seibel? 15:30:50 Other way around. 15:31:04 pam0: there are several implementations of (setf nthcdr) and associated discussions on cll. Have a look at google groups. 15:31:23 matimago: i will, thanks 15:32:30 pam0: yes. 15:33:54 ok, i just thought that i can peek at what implementations do for nth, i'll follow this lead because the groups only post questions i already had and don't answer mine (at least at first sight) 15:34:42 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:35:16 gigamonkey: btw, Amazon says that I'm suppose to receive C@W around November 15:35:20 pam0: ISTM that you have cases where you want to modify the place: (let ((list '())) (setf (nthcdr 0 list) (cons 1 2)) list) 15:35:32 fe[nl]ix: I'm luckier than you, only mid-october :( 15:35:54 One of my filthy in-laws spilled a soda on my copy of C@W. 15:36:01 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:37:06 tmh: death to the infidels! 15:37:28 *tmh* chuckles 15:37:56 matimago: my problem is not the (setf (nthcdr 0 ) ) case 15:38:18 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177074171.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:38:55 I think it's funny that gigamonkey already had to post a clarification of the JWZ interview. As I read these interviews, it's fairly obvious that they are casual recollections and there is probably a fair amount of error and a little exaggeration. 15:38:58 my problem/question is if i should optimize when n > 0 to store the cons so that, for instance (incf (nthcdr n )) would be faster 15:40:45 sellout: Ok, I *got* a copy of the repository. That should help me send any patches. 15:40:45 let's ignore the n=0 case, and let's take the first approach where my writer form is `(progn (rplacd (nthcdr (1- ,v-n) ,reader-form)) ,(first store-vars)) ,(first store-vars)) and my reader-form is `(nthcdr ,v-n ,reader-form) 15:41:04 the incf case will be slow for big values of n 15:41:09 tmh: Sorry for the hassle 15:41:13 in fact, any setf will be slow 15:41:47 sellout: NP, there are some weird characters in your site file index.html and docs.html is not in the repository. 15:42:09 Oh! Sure, you can add variables and cache the cdr you need. 15:42:12 sellout: I realize these are tangential issues, but I'm wondering if they are intentional 15:42:24 so i added a variable, v-cons, to the list of variables of the setf expander, its form is `(nthcdr (1- ,v-n) ,reader-form), then both the reader and the writer form would use cdr instead of nthcdr 15:42:32 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:42:43 matimago: i know i can, i wounder if i should 15:42:45 pam0: yes, that's good. 15:43:20 -!- gz_ [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:43:54 (setf (nthcdr 10 list) (progn (setf (nthcdr 5 list) some-other-list) yet-another-list) 15:44:00 pam0: that's a case where you need to use define-setf-expander, and not the simplier defsetf, etc. 15:44:03 tmh: Yeah. I certainly didn't try to idependently fact check anything my subjects said. 15:44:35 fe[nl]ix: Amazon has certainly told some people that they're not shipping until some very distant date and then ended up shipping the next day. 15:44:42 So it might not really be November. 15:44:43 but you see, in this last form i gave you (don't mind the free variables and unmatched parenthesis), this get weird... 15:45:00 pam0: what should (let ((x '())) (setf (nthcdr 10 x) t)) do? 15:45:25 tmh: Not intentional ... but I think maybe I generated the doc file programmatically, and the index.html ... maybe the encoding's wrong? I think it should all be UTF-8 15:45:34 gigamonkey: Amazon claims to have shipped the book. it will only take 4-5 weeks to get here 15:45:35 it'll error because rplacd nil 15:45:42 sellout: Ok 15:45:45 (at least my implementation) 15:46:07 fe[nl]ix: where are you, the moon?! 15:46:07 _jason9401 [n=thot@59.105.27.43] has joined #lisp 15:46:09 Well, I think you cannot use the store variables returned by define-setf-expander. 15:46:15 Those are used for multiple-value storing. 15:46:25 But you can perfectly cache the cons cell internally. 15:46:33 gigamonkey: Italy. and Adlai is in Israel(IIRC) 15:46:35 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:49 And ordering from amazon.com or one of the other amazons? 15:47:03 gz_ [n=gz@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:03 (Weren't you the one ordering from amazon.uk?) 15:47:23 gigamonkey: I ordered it from .com 15:47:37 And is it going my mail or UPS? 15:47:46 fe[nl]ix, gigamonkey: funny, I have received C@W yesterday, here in Austria. (will start reading at the weekend... :) ) 15:48:19 Strangely enough, the first person who reported getting copies of C@W was Joe Armstrong, my farthest flung interviewee. 15:48:26 gigamonkey: "Standard International Shipping", whatever that means 15:48:28 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:48:48 ordered via amazon.at 15:48:49 gigamonkey: I ordered from .uk 15:49:16 lol 15:49:26 coliv [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has joined #lisp 15:49:42 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:50:03 So does anyone here know anything more about http://wiki.alu.org/ALU%20Wiki%20Rescue%202009 than what it says on that page? 15:50:15 I.e. the snarky, gossipy version. 15:52:12 pam0: assume you write a macro such as: (do-a-complex-modification-on-f (nthcdr n l) (lambda (old-value) (setf l (list 1)) (1+ old-value))) ; it will call get-setf-expansion for nthcdr, and use the read form to get the value to pass to old-value, and the write form to store the result. Do you want a cached value or do you want to use the new list? 15:52:15 -!- Adlai is now known as Adlai` 15:53:08 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:54:02 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:54:51 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:55:13 Adlai` [n=adlai@93-173-140-203.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 15:55:31 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@93-173-140-203.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:55:54 pam0 pasted "nthcdr setf example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87511 15:56:11 matimago: let me give you an example (hope this gets well pasted) 15:56:48 matimago: that's the question :) cached value vs fresh list... what is the "proper" way? 15:58:18 somehow, i cannot see pastes in paste.lisp.org... 15:58:23 Sorry, there's still a problem with lisppaste, I only get a white page. 15:58:28 Is drewc running the ALU wiki now? 15:58:34 there's pastebin.org in the mean time. 15:59:21 *Adlai* neither 15:59:28 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 15:59:58 http://lisp.pastebin.com/m7cf5a9fb 16:00:04 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.134] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:01:05 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:01:30 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:02:56 is there any similar issue in the common-lisp specification? like in the setf of getf? 16:02:59 -!- _jason9401 [n=thot@59.105.27.43] has left #lisp 16:03:38 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:59 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 16:04:48 pam0: perhaps it's similar to: (macroexpand ' (incf (aref v 4) (progn (setf (aref v 4) 0) 10))) 16:05:02 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@81-174-49-12.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [] 16:05:06 clisp -> (LET* ((#1=#:G98397 V) (#2=#:G98398 4) (#3=#:G98400 (PROGN (SETF (AREF V 4) 0) 10)) (#4=#:G98399 (+ (AREF #1# #2#) #3#))) (SYSTEM::STORE #1# #2# #4#)) ; 16:05:08 for instance, should the setf of getf cache or not? or is it unspecified it it must or must not be, and as such non-portable code should be avoided? 16:05:28 yes, good example 16:05:34 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 16:05:45 pam0: it seems to me that, given the definition of define-setf-expander, they don't cache and are not meant to. 16:06:32 I already envisaged to cache, but we must ensure that it doesn't change the semantics. 16:08:08 that's good thinking 16:08:14 It would appear that chandler (or is it Superchandler) has fixed paste.lisp.org 16:08:32 but the aref example would, at most, cache the value stored at the array position to later increment 16:08:45 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has quit ["Valete!"] 16:08:48 *mathrick* discovers that ABCL and SBCL are just one key away from each other 16:08:52 i don't want to do that, but something in between: cache the changeable cons 16:09:01 pam0: Reading this expansion of aref, it seems to me that you could have indeed one variable holding the cons cell to me read or written. 16:09:07 but as you just pointed out, it's better to not change semantics 16:09:17 *Adlai* discovers that mathrick types QWERTY 16:09:24 mathrick: surely dbcl is next 16:09:41 minion: what does DBCL stand for? 16:09:41 Disequalizer Bromocamphor Common Lisp 16:09:52 works for me 16:09:57 housel: [caps]BCL to continue linear the progression. 16:10:09 *the linear progression 16:10:38 pkhuong: so just BCL, except you have to shout it? 16:10:47 Adlai: obviously, do you take me for some kind of idiot? 16:10:58 minion: what does BCL stand for? 16:10:59 Bostangi Common Lisp 16:11:02 stassats`: Deliberately Broken CL? 16:11:11 minion: what does BCL stand for? 16:11:11 Bicarpellate Common Lisp 16:11:21 interesting 16:11:23 *Adlai* types his own mangled Dvorak 16:11:33 minion: what does qwerty stand for? 16:11:33 Would you /please/ stop playing with me? 3 messages in 35 seconds is too many. 16:11:53 *Adlai* only wants to be your friend, minion ... :( 16:12:14 minion: minion? 16:12:20 minion: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 16:12:21 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:12:31 still doesn't work 16:13:29 HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:14:15 Adlai, svorak for great justice. 16:14:22 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-215-89.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:14:59 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host197-20-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 16:15:05 ok, i'll make it not caching the cons to keep consistency 16:15:24 (although i was more wishing that the standard did allow these cases...) 16:15:57 pam0: it's not obvious. Reading CLHS, we could consider that the variables and value forms could be used to keep the cons. 16:16:05 We could specify that (setf (nthcdr (incf i) list) (list 1 2 3)) <=> (let ((c (nthcdr (1- (incf i)) list))) (setf (cdr c) (list 1 2 3))) 16:16:36 tic: what's svorak? 16:17:10 Adlai, (a) swedish variation of Dvorak. 16:18:23 I'd like a pjborak... 16:19:17 gigamonkey: yeah, alu wiki is mine 16:19:32 matimago: you're right once again :) it depends on specification. and since this is local, i can specify it a will 16:20:02 mcdonji [n=mcdonji@70.75.0.48] has joined #lisp 16:20:56 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:21:06 *Adlai* uses "clorak" 16:21:29 Adlai: dvorak is stupid stupid stupid 16:21:37 snake oil for techies with too much time 16:21:40 dvorak is yummie. my wrists loves it. 16:21:51 tic: we've had that discussion :) 16:21:55 also, I've customized it a lot to avoid the silly placement of the original svorak keys. 16:21:57 yup. 16:22:17 jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:22:48 *Adlai* votes for dvorak 16:23:00 man this setf expansion thing for be has been more eye opening than all the rest of lisp, it's like i understand every macro and definition 16:23:13 *stassats`* votes for  16:23:13 that will pass 16:23:17 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 16:24:03 pam0: try some macro-defining-macro-defining-macro-defining-macro sometime. With a few gensyms. 16:24:14 still, not quite the feeling i had when i understood full continuations (no trolling/discussion intended) 16:24:31 go read some oleg k... 16:24:50 Fare: i'm used to it, and to metaclasses, etc. 16:25:05 i was more interested in semantics here than details 16:25:38 drewc: we're interested in reinstating a cl-gardeners page on the alu wiki. is that possible? (the wayback machine has some of it, but perhaps new content is warranted anyway) 16:26:20 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:26:26 -!- ignas_ [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:27:16 matimago: thanks for the enlightenment chat :) 16:27:24 You're welcome. 16:27:45 gigamonkey: that's quite a good book you have there online, that's the one i personally recommend to people new to or not so new to lisp 16:30:05 bye 16:30:07 -!- pam0 [n=pam@mail2.siscog.pt] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 16:30:13 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.134] has joined #lisp 16:33:07 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 16:33:56 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:07 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-71-12.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:35:24 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 16:35:47 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest12177 16:36:02 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.245.66] has joined #lisp 16:36:20 -!- whartung [n=willh@207.38.40.1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:36:23 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 16:36:28 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.245.66] has quit [Client Quit] 16:38:20 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@lawn-143-215-206-166.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:39:00 whartung [n=willh@207.38.40.1] has joined #lisp 16:40:04 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:40:16 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-14-211.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:51 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:43:03 smolyn [n=smolyn@76.77.66.100] has joined #lisp 16:43:05 phf [n=user@146.145.38.2] has joined #lisp 16:43:42 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 16:48:08 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@78-69-144-82-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 16:48:47 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-bxbutpkmofsmullq] has joined #lisp 16:53:27 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:53:32 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:53:39 -!- jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 16:53:48 hello Adlai 16:53:49 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:54:14 dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 16:54:29 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has joined #lisp 16:54:55 sellout [n=greg@pool-129-44-178-240.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:25 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-15-39.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:55:26 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 16:56:07 djkthx [n=yacin@lawn-143-215-206-166.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 16:57:48 -!- Tek3|Eregrith [n=nnscript@sd-16241.dedibox.fr] has quit ["( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )"] 16:57:50 jhalogen [n=jake@98.154.251.83] has joined #lisp 16:58:48 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.19] has quit ["restart"] 16:59:44 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:59:46 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:59:59 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:46 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:07 -!- hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit ["leaving"] 17:03:22 -!- jhalogen [n=jake@98.154.251.83] has quit [] 17:04:28 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@63.198.106.143] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:07:30 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.19] has joined #lisp 17:08:11 dkcl` [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 17:08:40 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:08:45 -!- dkcl` is now known as dandersen 17:12:02 arbscht: it's a wiki, go nuts. 17:12:46 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:13:07 drewwwwwc! 17:13:13 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:13:22 torbo [n=torbo@c-0f5fe353.732-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:13:29 Mr Xach, getting to your email right now. 17:13:58 drewc: so do you know anything more about why the old ALU Wiki just went poof! 17:15:47 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:16:05 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:17:34 gigamonkey: all i know is that Carl Shapiro disappeared and took the old wiki with him. 17:17:53 maybe hired by microsoft to finish up cmucl/win32? 17:18:00 I think he went to Google. 17:18:09 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:18:45 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host65.190-228-244.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:18:46 He was at Franz briefly and then Google kept after him and got him to jump, is what I heard. 17:19:14 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:58 did anyone ask him if he could provide the contents of the old wiki? 17:21:04 there are two bigshot computer guys called carl shapiro, right? 17:21:14 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-72-136.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:22:26 google suggests there are a lot of people in general named carl shapiro 17:22:32 foom: we tried to contact him for quite a while, but all attempts were met with no response. 17:23:27 that's rather rude. 17:23:31 ah well. 17:23:41 hi lukego 17:23:49 what are you doing hanging around in these parts? 17:24:06 drewc: Perhaps he's under an NLCA? 17:24:49 Summermute [n=scott@68.34.67.216] has joined #lisp 17:25:00 Xof: I came for some highly off-topic reason and just got comfy. :) 17:25:33 Xach: one carl shaprio is an OS hacker at microsoft and is famous for orthogonally-persistent operating systems. I think he's much older than the guy who talked about porting cmucl to win32 17:27:23 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:34:14 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:34:51 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host191.190-227-45.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:36:06 nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:37:16 Xach: will be live in 3571 seconds 17:37:26 Xach: (the cname that is) 17:37:36 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 17:37:58 thanks 17:38:33 jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:42:55 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:48:07 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:48:24 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:51:10 -!- gz_ [n=gz@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:51:28 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:51:44 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:53:41 -!- sellout [n=greg@pool-129-44-178-240.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 17:54:16 -!- Tordek_ is now known as Tordek 17:54:26 fxr [n=user@213.232.33.243] has joined #lisp 17:55:06 is it possible to get only a subdirectory of a git repository somehow? 17:56:03 -!- Guest12177 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 17:56:15 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:56:51 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:57:06 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:57:51 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AF7C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:23 levy: I believe the way git works makes that impossible. 17:58:27 but you can have subprojects. 17:58:28 -!- majhool [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["!"] 17:58:46 lispm [n=joswig@e177125061.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:59:40 sykopomp, thx, but it's not my repo 17:59:44 its gitweb in git 17:59:50 but the git repo is huge 18:00:40 yeah, I think you're pretty much stuck pulling in the whole thing. 18:01:18 if you don't care about having the directory under source control, though, you can just grab the files. 18:03:49 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.221] has joined #lisp 18:04:11 *Xach* does some blog churn on planet lisp 18:04:26 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:04:42 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:05:11 *tcr* feels lucky that it has been a blogful month for him 18:05:51 -!- Summermute [n=scott@68.34.67.216] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:06:09 with the newest update crome now has working plugins 18:08:05 -!- wasabi [n=wasabi@nttkyo713154.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:08:10 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 18:08:10 Chrome that is 18:08:18 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:08:35 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:09:12 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 18:09:20 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 18:09:26 good evening 18:11:12 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.86.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:11:41 eal [n=user@c83-250-155-194.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:12:17 -!- mcdonji [n=mcdonji@70.75.0.48] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:13:04 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.221] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:14:59 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@lawn-143-215-206-166.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:15:34 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-72-136.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:16:09 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-98-108.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:16:55 kami-, hi 18:22:42 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:23:40 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-98-108.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 18:24:07 levy: I'm trying to build hu.dwim.home and get "The name "HU.DWIM.DELICO" does not designate any package." while compiling engine.lisp. Does that sound familiar? 18:24:12 okflo` [n=user@91-115-91-104.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:24:42 kami-, yes and it has been fixed 18:24:47 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 18:24:52 this was caused by silently redefining 18:25:08 a macro, eh, its complicated anyway 18:26:01 *okflo`* wonders, when Chrome for OSX will be available... 18:26:02 levy: the anaphoric ones? 18:26:24 kami-, yes 18:26:31 saikat_ [n=saikat@76.228.82.245] has joined #lisp 18:26:49 Now that I have clbuild, should I remove all systems in ~/.sbcl/{site,systems} ? 18:26:54 okflo`: There's a release already 18:27:16 Can't remember where I got it from 18:28:06 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@mail.viantgroup.com] has joined #lisp 18:28:14 kami-, BTW, I've just put up a new version at http://dwim.hu 18:28:21 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-96.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:28:52 the interesting part is the gui component demo, many things are broken there, but you get a picture 18:28:56 tic: yes, if you want to 18:30:19 stassats`, but there should be no conflicts if I don't? (maybe I just need to read the FAQ...) 18:30:21 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:30:46 kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:50 Makoryu: only private ports, afaik, but no official release... 18:31:35 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:35:19 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has joined #lisp 18:35:45 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 18:37:47 -!- okflo` [n=user@91-115-91-104.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:38:57 -!- okflo [n=user@91-115-87-151.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:40:43 tic: what I did to migrate from asdf-install to clbuild is just install stuff with clbuild and every so often check to make sure that anything in my clbuild directory was not in my asdf-install directory 18:40:59 bandu [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:23 levy: sorry, I think I hanged dwim.hu 18:41:25 > (format t "hello, guise") 18:41:40 wasabi [n=wasabi@nttkyo713154.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:41:54 kami-, good for you :) 18:42:11 well, you are right, just got killed, let's see the logs 18:42:37 levy: you mean 'good for me' because you fix the bug and the platform becomes more stable? :) 18:42:52 kami-, I hope so 18:43:11 kami-: until then, you get credited with the discovery of a new feature! 18:43:19 bad_alloc [n=marvin@HSI-KBW-091-089-218-056.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 18:43:24 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:24 evening 18:43:33 Adlai, okay, cool. thanks. 18:43:44 *bandu* waves 18:43:56 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-039-220.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:58 hey bandu, are you new to Common Lisp? 18:44:02 yus, very 18:44:18 *bandu* looks for Ralith 18:44:33 kami-, hmm there's nothing in wui's error.log 18:44:48 there's a message "Killed" on the console 18:44:52 gz_ [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 18:44:55 If you're interested in Common Lisp, this is the right place. Note that Scheme, Clojure, etc have their own channels. 18:45:02 I don't have the faintest idea where does that come from 18:45:04 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-039-220.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:45:08 levy: I did the following: Demo > UI > 'something like basic or so' > String (the text John appears) > click wildly on Demo, XHTML, Source, Documentation 18:45:21 levy: restart it and I'll crash it again :) 18:45:37 ok, I just have to connect with swank then 18:45:48 Adlai: i'm trying to decide between common lisp and haskell, as two friends of mine, who are both pretty excited about having me aboard argue over whether i should learn one or the other first 18:45:53 levy: which log-level does it run in, by default? 18:45:55 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-246-229.vodafone.hu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:45:57 doesnt matter much, i can always learn both 18:46:04 just not at the same time, i think 18:46:09 -!- jikanter [n=jordan@24-148-12-119.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:46:11 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-039-220.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:19 bandu: sup 18:46:27 he ralith 18:46:30 *hey 18:46:45 i totally missed you on the nick list 18:46:47 bandu: They're both powerful languages, worth learning at some point... one thing which I can say for CL though is that it's dynamic, and thus (in my opinion) easier for starting out. 18:46:56 bandu: it is worlds easier to do useful things in CL vs. haskell. 18:47:07 *bandu* nods 18:47:09 bandu: What's your background? 18:47:09 irrespective of your level of experience. 18:47:19 at the very leas, you're able to play with CL more. 18:47:30 that said, it's a great idea to learn haskell at some point, simply because it forces you to learn a whole bunch of really cool stuff 18:47:35 tcr: i know only java, and a tiny bit of javascript 18:47:42 bandu: yeah, total n00bs can write object systems in CL in no time at all 18:47:44 my programming style changed drastically after I learned haskell, and imo much for the better. 18:47:45 i've just finished a program for a german coding competition and now i've discovered that they expect to get a runnable program (i.e something to double click) which must be delivered on a cd. how do i do that? i can only find commercial delivery systems for cl. 18:47:48 i played with some C/C++, but didnt really pick it up 18:47:48 Oh boy 18:47:57 *Adlai* jests, ever so slightly :) 18:48:02 bandu: I suggest that you start with the book SICP first. 18:48:22 bad_alloc: Bwinf? 18:48:22 bandu: Ralith will have some absolutely hilarious things to say about Haskell 18:48:23 bad_alloc: which lisp implementation have you been working on? 18:48:26 bad_alloc: dump and executable image 18:48:30 bandu: You should totally ask him about it :D 18:48:33 dump an 18:48:43 bad_alloc: What OS? 18:48:54 tcr: yes 18:48:55 bad_alloc: also, is this intended to target Windows or *NIX? 18:49:02 Adlai: common lisp 18:49:03 bad_alloc: which OS, and which implementation? 18:49:05 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-246-229.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 18:49:16 tmh: windows xp or suse 18:49:19 common lisp is a language standard, not an implementation. 18:49:24 bah, the network on dwim.hu is slow like hell 18:49:27 clisp 18:49:33 bad_alloc: Common Lisp is a (the!) language. An implementation is something like SBCL or CLISP 18:49:36 kami-, ok I fired it up and debug-on-error is t 18:49:38 so lisp before haskell, but definately haskell at some point 18:49:40 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-183.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 18:49:42 (sorry i thought clisp and common lisp are the same) 18:49:43 bandu: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs (SICP) is totally mind-blowing. 18:49:46 *bandu* puts it on his todo list 18:49:46 hope there won't be too much errors popping up 18:49:48 bad_alloc: check out the documentation for CLISP. They have instructions on how to dump binaries. 18:49:53 bad_alloc: check the documentation for saving images in CLISP 18:49:57 bad_alloc: you're in luck, CLISP can dump executable images that aren't too large, and can do so for basically all platforms. 18:49:58 bandu: It uses a subset of Lisp to teach the fundamentals of Computer Science 18:50:09 will do, thanks 18:50:17 Makoryu: still sore about that? :P 18:50:21 tcr: it doesnt teach common lisp? 18:50:31 Ralith: s/sore/amused/ 18:50:33 tcr: wont subtle differences trip me up? 18:50:37 yeahh. 18:50:42 bandu: it uses Scheme, which is like Common Lisp's elegant, academic cousin 18:50:56 bandu: shouldn't be hard to keep them straight. 18:50:57 bandu: I used Scheme, and Common Lisp for the Bwinf in past; it was enough to provide a shell script in my case. 18:51:04 so i should #join scheme and learn that first? 18:51:09 ... 18:51:17 */join #scheme? 18:51:21 bandu: I think that you can learn Common Lisp to start out, but that's just me :) 18:51:28 bandu: It's easy enough to enumerate the new things you'll have to learn when going from Scheme to CL 18:51:28 okay, good 18:51:30 bandu: CL is fine. 18:51:32 bandu: you can learn Common Lisp as a first language just fine 18:51:39 bandu: The point of SICP is not that it teaches a language but that it teaches a mindset. 18:51:40 bandu: Just have to read a couple of books 18:51:44 bandu, once you look at both CL and Scheme, you will probably like one more than the other! 18:51:45 bandu: SICP isn't really about scheme, it's about programming in general 18:51:46 *bandu* is overwhelmed <3 18:51:55 helpfulzerg! 18:51:56 minion: please tell bandu about pcl 18:51:58 wait! 18:51:58 :D 18:52:02 pcl: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 18:52:04 sykopomp: I've already got him going through it 18:52:06 hm 18:52:11 This channel is way too crowded. 18:52:12 bandu: go to http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 18:52:16 Adlai: see above. 18:52:20 *bandu* wgets 18:52:22 *sykopomp* pulls out of the mess. 18:52:32 *Adlai* brings up the weather 18:52:36 ooh 18:52:39 *bandu* bookmarks 18:52:40 bandu: also a good beginner book for Lisp basics is: Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation 18:52:46 bandu: it's also very much worth buying an actual hard copy for your bookshelf. 18:52:46 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/index.html 18:52:52 bandu, it will totally depend on what you are trying to get our of learning Scheme/CL 18:52:59 minion: successful-lisp for bandu 18:52:59 bandu: direct your attention towards successful-lisp: Successful Lisp is a book providing an all-around summary of Common Lisp, available online at http://www.psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/ 18:53:05 bandu, s/our/out 18:53:07 levy: I cannot crash it, any more. But I have 'unknown error at top-level' 18:53:09 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit ["leaving"] 18:53:44 *bandu* glows under the attention <3 18:53:45 kami-, that's the client side 18:53:53 kami-, I can't debug that from here :) 18:53:56 okay, bookmarked all three 18:53:57 try reloading the page 18:54:00 tmh: good call on the single-float number in the recorded result, I completely missed that. 18:54:00 what browser? 18:54:03 in what order should i read them? 18:54:09 levy: FF3 18:54:19 bandu: in parallel 18:54:27 bandu: they're not really sequential 18:54:30 stats: noted... 18:54:38 they're all intended as introductory CL books, I think. 18:54:40 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-73-177.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:54:43 *Ralith* is only intimately familiar with PCL 18:54:50 bandu: bear in mind that PCL is the newest one, and thus has the most modern examples 18:54:51 i meant about SICP and PCL 18:55:11 bandu: Work through SICP first. 18:55:13 LiamH: Thanks, did you try setting *READ-DEFAULT-FLOAT-FORMAT* to DOUBLE-FLOAT 18:55:14 ? 18:55:24 i hear conflicting opinoons on whether lisp is still evolving or not 18:55:25 -!- HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:55:30 dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 18:55:34 bandu: Make sure to do exercises. Also watch the SICP video lecturers of the authors in parallel 18:55:41 bandu: generally: people who don't use it say it isn't; people who do use it say it is. 18:55:48 can i expect significant changes to lisp? 18:55:50 oh i see 18:55:53 okay 18:55:57 common lisp will always be a formal standard 18:55:58 tcr: noted. 18:55:59 tmh: no, I just added the "d0". I have mixed feelings about resetting r-d-f-f; though I do it myself routinely, I'm not sure I want to require it. 18:56:00 bandu: you can expect significant changes the moment you start using it 18:56:10 bandu: there's enough conservatives that your CL code will continue to be fairly compatible. 18:56:15 but even now there's work going on on a new version 18:56:18 ie, to quote John Foderaro: "Lisp is the programmable programming language." 18:56:21 Adlai: i c wut u did thar 18:56:27 but CL is also flexible enough that youc an expect the language the change a lot through libraries. 18:56:35 for example, there's been a lot of push to replace LOOP with ITERATE 18:56:37 bandu: u c wut i did whar? 18:56:44 that's language evolution :) 18:56:46 oh, never mind 18:57:08 yeah, there are very few elements of CL that you can't replace within CL if you don't like them. 18:57:20 LiamH: I've been toying with the idea of using it. 18:57:24 i thought you were playing with the idea that i would think differently upon learning the langugage 18:57:29 -g 18:57:42 that's probably more haskell's area 18:57:54 well, depending. 18:57:55 o.o o rly? 18:58:00 it was for me 'cuz I'd never programmed functionally before 18:58:03 bandu: every language changes the way you think about programming 18:58:10 bandu: You'll probably be enlighten when you read through SICP. I suggest starting NOW. 18:58:12 adlai: i know 18:58:14 some more, some less. 18:58:16 but since you don't have much experience one way or another you might just jump right into the functional bits of lisp 18:58:17 Adlai: well, every language worth learning 18:58:27 Adlai: to quote Alan Perlis this time 18:58:30 LiamH: Are you back in development mode for GSLL? 18:58:35 tmh: it's a bit frustrating; I'd like to have lisp assume all floats are double float, but it doesn't quite do that. 18:58:38 levy: no error any more. But I have an interesting behaviour. When I click on the content on the right hand side, some of the menus on the LHS have a 'refresh' overlay and change background colour to blue. It takes around 5 seconds until all 'refreshing' images go away and the background colour becomes normal. 18:58:44 stassats`: no, they all change the way you think... some just change the way you think to "OH GAWD WHY!?" 18:58:45 tcr: command received. auth token probationary, executing... 18:58:54 -!- bandu is now known as bandu-reading 18:58:58 tmh: I'm trying to hit smaller things as they arise. 18:59:10 -!- ejs [n=eugen@31-54-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:59:18 stassats`: even java changed the way I think about programming. In a good way. 18:59:27 kami-, that's a known bug, thanks, it reloads a lot of components separately and in parallel using ajax, no idea what causes that 18:59:33 I did not have the time to investigate it 18:59:39 sykopomp: that's because Java is worth learning! It's Industry Best Practice! 18:59:42 kami-, oops, now I have an error 18:59:52 odd number of &key arguments 18:59:57 tmh: so I needed SVD decomposition for something, and that made me aware there were no tests for most linear algebra calculations, so I added about 75 tests and changed some function arguments to be optional for SVD, LU, and QR. 19:00:04 LiamH: I was looking through the WEYL computer algebra library and saw that they were shadowing symbols in the CL package like #'+. It got me to thinking about using shadow. 19:00:06 kami-, do you want to skip rendering this component? 19:00:07 bandu-reading: Get DrScheme, that's an easy-to-get and easy-to-use environment for Scheme. 19:00:07 levy: that's Primitive > Maker > Boolean 19:00:18 levy: probably not finished porting? 19:00:20 tmh: I've done that, but it's a bad idea. 19:00:26 scheme? 19:00:29 kami-, unfortunately true 19:00:40 tmh: because '+ and '* specifically have bindings other than functions 19:00:41 bandu-reading: SICP uses Scheme 19:00:41 LiamH: Ah, I have too many irons in the fire and need to sit down and prioritize. 19:00:52 tcr: command aborted.. resource not found 19:00:52 -!- bad_alloc [n=marvin@HSI-KBW-091-089-218-056.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit ["You shoot yourself in somebody else's foot."] 19:00:59 -!- bandu-reading is now known as coyo 19:01:14 tmh: it's quite annoying to have to do e.g. (declare (vector cl:*)) etc. 19:01:18 which one was sicp? 19:01:25 Scheme bears many similarities to Common Lisp, and it'll do you good anyways to learn it 19:01:30 coyo: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs 19:01:41 kami-, BTW, does the column chart shows up to you? 19:01:52 coyo: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/ 19:01:53 .google Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs 19:01:53 coyo: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html 19:01:55 kami-, another errror 19:02:02 coyo: no googlebot here. 19:02:12 java is interesting as a social experiment, not from a technical standpoint 19:02:13 ;.; 19:02:14 levy: I clicked somewhere in the content, sorry. 19:02:17 tmh: I have a to-do list of mostly big things, but one of the items is "add tests", and this I can do a little at a time. 19:02:33 coyo: right here --> http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/ 19:02:45 kami-, bah, I killed your session 19:02:46 i got it 19:02:53 kami-, I turn this debug-on-error off 19:02:53 *coyo* begins reading 19:03:19 kami-, I have to take some food 19:03:21 LiamH: I haven't looked into shadowing before because it looked like using it was too error prone. The WEYL stuff got me thinking that shadowing must be there for a reason and maybe I should look into using it. The key must be knowing when it is justified, I don't know that. 19:03:26 levy: I have the impression that 'unknown error at top-level' is related to session expiry and such 19:03:27 tmh: one of the things that the linear algebra tests require is a way to generate matrices by index, so I've added that. However, my colleague needed something similar, and he wrote more general functions, so I will probably adapt those. 19:03:39 coyo: hopefully this deluge of textbooks isn't too overwhelming ^^ 19:03:40 levy: I'll try the build in the mean time. 19:03:45 no 19:03:47 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@mail.viantgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:03:55 kami-, ok, let me know if you have problems 19:04:11 I would prefer to use Common Lisp books and learn Common Lisp, instead of Scheme 19:04:16 tmh: I think shadowing is useful, but what turned me away from using it was the problems with '+ and '* specifically. The rest of the symbols are OK. 19:04:17 LiamH: Is that something that needs to be added to lisp-unit? What exactly do you mean generate matrices by index? 19:04:20 i can read quickly, though technical manuals are significantly slower than my comprehension reading speed in novels 19:04:32 well of course 19:04:45 :3 19:05:01 lispm: SICP isn't a matter of learning scheme so much, though 19:05:22 tmh: http://repo.or.cz/w/gsll.git?a=blob;f=linear-algebra/matrix-generation.lisp 19:05:23 there are SICPs for Common Lisp 19:05:25 coyo: Please keep one nickname. 19:05:59 Ralith: SICP is a computer science introduction, not the right book if somebody wants to learn Lisp 19:06:00 tcr: come now, he's discovering the magical world of IRC. Let him play a little :) 19:06:09 tmh: this is useful if you want to create a matrix with specific contents based on the indices of the elements, see the examples at the end. 19:06:21 kami-: that unknown error is that the session and/or frame gets invalid and the ajax stuff doesn't handle that well yet 19:06:25 tmh: not a lisp-unit thing, no 19:06:25 *attila_lendvai* is afk for a while 19:06:47 lispm: well, he's interested in learning programming first, lisp second, I think. 19:06:49 coyo: I recommend that you look at both PCL and SICP, and come ask in here any time you have questions. 19:07:09 lispm: the language is, after all, just the medium. 19:07:18 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.19] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:07:29 yus, sirs 19:07:30 yeah, but computer science is not equal to programming 19:07:33 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.34] has joined #lisp 19:07:36 *coyo* sticks to "coyo" 19:07:51 ralith: learning programming is so much more than is in SICP 19:07:59 LiamH: Ah, ok. On a related note, despite not having released a draft of the linear algebra library, I have done a little work on it and have a plan for a preliminary release. 19:08:01 attila_lendvai: yes. I see that always after long inactivity. 19:08:13 "And He looked upon the CODE, and He saw that it was good." <- Ralith, the code matters, it's in scripture! 19:08:20 ralith: learning programming with Lisp is better done with PCL, I think 19:08:22 tmh: OK 19:08:49 ralith: even CS students have a course pre SICP to get some programming basics in Scheme 19:09:08 *coyo* reads on 19:09:53 lispm: well he'll be doing both so that's okay then ^^ 19:10:09 LiamH: I have too many libraries in various states of development that need to just be kicked out the door. Part of the problem is that I want to host them on my own website tied in with my little consulting company, but I keep procrastinating on putting together a website and server. 19:10:23 johnny_z [n=anonymou@217.24.250.130] has joined #lisp 19:10:29 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-247-141.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:10:58 tmh: OK; I prefer to have cl.net and repo.or.cz take on the hosting chores. 19:11:16 *coyo* likes the humor in this old book 19:11:43 tmh: There's now a mirror of the GSLL git repo on cl.net at http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=projects/gsll/gsll.git;a=summary; it syncs up every hour. 19:11:49 *coyo* reviews material he knows already.... 19:13:55 LiamH: that's nice. I may have to give up on darcs and go with the inertia of git. 19:14:09 tmh: git is great 19:14:46 tmh: I mirrored it because repo.or.cz was off the air for a few hours, and someone wanted to pull GSLL. 19:14:58 Adlai: A great number of commands that are subtle different and confusing 19:15:35 *coyo* begins to hit material with which he is not familar 19:15:40 *familiar 19:16:11 tmh: git's got a fairly straightforward interface nowadays, for basic stuff -- you add files, commit, push, pull, branch, merge -- the stuff like update-ref is pretty well hidden nowadays, I think 19:16:12 LiamH: Well, cl.net does have darcs, so maybe that's not a concern. 19:16:39 tmh: omg darcs 19:16:54 LiamH: I just need to make it public and let go, but I have some desire to keep it on my own website and under my own control. 19:16:57 tmh: yeah, I think they support all the big source code management packages 19:17:01 coyo: feel free to ask questions... as you can probably tell, this is a newbie-starved community 19:17:13 tmh: well that of course is your choice 19:17:13 :3 19:17:30 *coyo* is already commited, and has added #lisp to his autojoin 19:17:45 *coyo* faithfully logs into irc everyday 19:18:05 LiamH: Yeah, I need to go help with a grocery list, be back later. 19:18:30 mcdonji [n=mcdonji@70.75.0.48] has joined #lisp 19:18:52 Adlai: i take it you run this place along with tmh? 19:19:08 you two seem to be dominant 19:19:13 coyo: I could name a few ways that you'd be wrong 19:19:20 okay 19:19:31 ehh wait I misspoke 19:19:39 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.134] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:19:43 ? 19:19:43 read as: I could name very few ways in which you could be MORE wrong 19:19:59 okay 19:20:15 *coyo* is used to being wrong, so, yeah 19:20:16 *Adlai* is quite far from "running this place", although he does at times strut about as though he does... 19:20:47 *coyo* offers adlai a gift of white chocolate anyway 19:20:55 coyo: there are 301 people in this channel, and no guarantee that *any* of them even have ops :P 19:20:59 welcome to freenode. 19:21:05 rofl 19:21:06 Oh, a few do. 19:21:07 coyo: I'm fairly new to Lisp myself, which is why I try to be nice to newbies :) 19:21:18 yeah, i noticed the lack of ops, halfops, and voice 19:21:38 banlist is full anyway 19:21:44 freenode standard is also generally only to +o whe one plans to use it. 19:21:54 The people who do have ops here can ask the ChanServ to op them when they need to kickban nubzorz 19:21:54 usually someone activating their ops privliges is a warning that a banhammer is incoming 19:22:05 i'm not really that worried, as i'm sweet natured, and unlikely to do anything to get banned 19:22:12 hehe 19:22:22 *Adlai* mutters, "Just you wait..." 19:22:31 :3 19:22:32 A few months have passed... it's time for me to ask the question again. 19:22:36 What happened to Erik Naggum? 19:22:39 he died? 19:22:46 He can die? 19:22:50 so it seems 19:22:53 dandersen: he got GCed, so to speak. 19:22:54 i am not familiar with that guy 19:22:56 That would be a pity. 19:23:06 coyo: semifamous lisp usenet poster 19:23:09 coyo: so, stop talking and go read lisp books 19:23:15 coyo: Hey, if I can prowl around here and not be banhammered, so can you 19:23:17 okayz 19:23:18 dandersen: I think he was pretty sick in the last bit of his life 19:23:29 Adlai: i'd prefer getting gc'd rather than die :) 19:23:30 Adlai: Wait, he actually died? 19:23:33 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:23:34 *coyo* continues reading 19:23:37 dandersen: He died. 19:23:41 dandersen: yes 19:23:51 http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/ErikNaggum 19:24:13 Oh damn, it must've happened while I was offline. 19:24:17 Makoryu: right, because we're gonna trust Emacs users with keeping their wiki factual 19:24:23 dandersen: it happened a while ago, actually 19:24:41 Adlai: I took a 4-month break off computing. 19:25:03 Adlai: You say you're a newbie, yet you talk like you've been hanging out in #lisp your entire life 19:25:08 dandersen: ah, I see 19:25:19 Makoryu: he does? 19:25:33 less talk, MORE CODE 19:25:38 minion: CHANT 19:25:38 MORE CODE 19:25:43 i was wondering if there's something like a common lisp podcast, similar to what the 'industry misinterprations' podcast is to smalltalk 19:25:54 *dandersen* makes a mental note to write some sort of universal filter so that the words "Xah" and "Lee" are never displayed before my eyes. 19:26:25 Ralith: Does a fish in water know it's wet? INTELLECTUAL CHECKMATE! 19:26:26 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:26:39 Say, is there a CL IRC client? 19:26:42 pr: Some people talked about doing that (Markus Fix IIRC) but I don't think it went anywhere. 19:26:45 Or do you all just use ERC? 19:26:47 dandersen, aren't typing those characters kickable offences? :P 19:26:51 Makoryu: beirc 19:26:56 minion: beirc, when you get around to CLiki 19:26:59 Makoryu: Beirc is an IRC client for McCLIM 19:27:01 beirc, when you get around: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 19:27:03 dcrawford: I certainly hope so. 19:27:04 -!- fxr [n=user@213.232.33.243] has left #lisp 19:27:28 Makoryu: wat 19:27:29 minion: tell Makoryu about beirc 19:27:34 beirc: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 19:27:40 :( 19:27:48 dcrawford: Relax. I can google 19:27:50 minion: what does beIRC stand for? 19:27:50 Baylike Egoistically Inbreed Roaster Colorfully 19:28:14 stipet [n=user@c83-253-28-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:28:19 Adlai: You *were* asking for it. 19:28:22 sounds about right 19:28:26 ah is it because cliki moved? 19:28:53 cliki.tech.coop doesn't work but www.cliki.net does 19:30:46 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Client Quit] 19:30:51 -!- brickhazel_ [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.79] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:31:46 minion: cliki 19:31:49 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:31:50 cliki: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 19:33:43 minion: tell me about cliki 19:33:45 -!- torbo [n=torbo@c-0f5fe353.732-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:33:45 splittist [n=dmurray@ASt-Lambert-153-1-63-222.w83-204.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:33:48 cliki: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 19:33:48 bonsoir 19:34:02 guten abend 19:34:04 bonsoir monsieur 19:34:13 buenas noches 19:34:20 wussup 19:34:52 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-42.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:35:05 wtf does it mean that "cliki doesn't respond" ? 19:35:35  19:35:49 p_l: exactly 19:35:56 fe[nl]ix: I think minion used to have some direct link to cliki (ie, he could access page data directly, rathre than have to parse HTML pages), and now it's broken. 19:36:15 hm actually cliki pages basically are HTML... 19:37:00 p_l: isn't it HA (pronounced as WA)? 19:37:06 *dandersen* still can't get over the fact that Naggum is dead. 19:37:07 *coyo* is now reading http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html#%_toc_%_sec_1.1.3 19:37:29 coyo: no need to acknowledge everyone 19:37:45 okay 19:37:50 dansersen: light a candle and make a donation to a Lisp project 19:38:31 sykopomp: it's only  when it is used as a particle, and I don't remember if it was used like that in this case 19:38:41 you might also want to put a picture of him on some altar 19:39:07 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 19:39:08 contribute to CLtL3 19:39:28 lispm: make Naggum a Kami? :P 19:39:32 p_l: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090903203257AAGIsLl looks like it's konbanha 19:39:52 I think it's a shortened sentence, so it uses HA as a particle. 19:40:01 p_l: please don't make Naggum a kami- 19:40:56 or vice versa? 19:41:00 sykopomp: right,    19:41:16 *p_l* blames his lack of practice 19:41:27 "this night .." right. It's been like 3 years for me :\ 19:41:34 I should get on top of things again. 19:41:54 p_l: (ik) (int) (misspelling of ) (See ) (WARNING - misspelling!); 19:42:00 from jim breen's dictionary 19:42:06 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 19:42:45 fe[nl]ix: well, I typed it like ^Rkonbanwa^R so I didn't have spelling support :P 19:42:51 lispm: I think using Lisp more in my daily coding would be good enough. Anyone can contribute with money, but not all can contribute with code. ;P 19:43:04 tsuru [n=user@c-76-22-154-126.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:13 http://www.polarcloud.com/rikaichan/ highly recommended, by the way, if you're a fx user. 19:43:25 ) ;end offtopic closure 19:43:27 danderson: Lisp projects also take code donations 19:43:42 sykopomp: this is not C! 19:43:48 lispm: My point exactly. 19:44:33 the mighty Lambda also takes food and flowers 19:46:33 see here for some actual Lisp altar: http://www.cs.brown.edu/research/plt/LispM/ 19:46:54 Adlai: no, it's not. But I like marking the very end of a large toplevel closure with a paren in a different line. 19:47:03 it makes it more obvious that the closure is over. 19:47:42 silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-086-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:57 lispm: I'd be more delighted to see those machines being used as something more than decoration. 19:48:12 gigamonkey: "another guy named Rob MacLachlan" at CMU's AI LAB? Wouldn't that be the R.A.M. of CMUCL? 19:48:19 yes 19:48:26 yes 19:50:06 are there any logs being collected with utf8 turned on? I see clozure's but it doesn't appear to be utf8 19:50:40 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/09.09.22 19:51:05 fe[nl]ix: thanks 19:51:46 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:32 kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:57 basic question, can you not evaluate to a key in a case form? 19:55:23 http://pastebin.com/m12f900af 19:55:39 no, you cannot 19:55:53 though, you can do #.(char-code #\s) 19:56:00 if the value is available at read time, you can do what stassats said 19:56:42 hmm, ok. what does #. do? 19:56:43 proun: Consider using an alist instead 19:56:51 clhs #. 19:56:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhf.htm 19:56:54 proun: it evaluates a form when the file is read 19:57:09 -!- silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-086-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:57:20 Adlai: files need not be involved 19:57:29 Xach: true. s/file/form 19:58:03 and result is substitutet 19:58:37 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 19:59:00 tcr: i do not understand what i would do with an alist there 19:59:12 jeti [n=jeti@p548EFC69.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:43 proun: (print (cdr (assoc char '((#\x . "something") (#\y . "something-else"))))) 20:00:28 ah, thanks 20:01:25 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-247-141.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:43 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-98-108.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:03:32 or a hash table. 20:04:03 <_3b> does CASE use EQ or EQL? 20:04:10 _3b: EQL. 20:04:13 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:04:38 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:05:26 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:16 BLM Wednesday 30th 2009 6pm @ NEU WVG 108 (!) - Christine Flood on Fortress 20:06:56 bread08 [n=bread08@80.31.191.57] has joined #lisp 20:06:58 neat 20:07:41 Fare: Fortress? 20:08:38 Fare: Every time I think Fortress is dead and I can quit looking for a reason to use it, someone does something with it. 20:09:00 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:27 sykopomp, it's a programmable programming language, Lisp enough to me. 20:09:32 Hi. Can anyone tell me, why a floating point subtraction like the following leeds to a "noisy" result? 20:09:45 (- 21.7 21.0) -> 0.70000076 20:09:47 Fare: Why use something "Lisp-like" when you can just use Lisp? 20:10:09 bread08: That's the beauty of trying to represent an irrational number in binary. 20:10:13 dandersen, because LISP 1.5 is not that great. 20:10:39 bread08: Although, I guess those are rational, or could be 20:10:52 dandersen: and implementations of 1.5 are rather rare :P 20:10:52 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229172026.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 20:10:58 minion: tell bread08 about floating-point 20:10:58 bread08: have a look at floating-point: What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic http://docs-pdf.sun.com/800-7895/800-7895.pdf http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=103163 http://focus.hut.fi/docs/WorkShop/common/ug/goldberg1.doc.html 20:11:11 bread08, maybe you want (- 217/10 21) 20:11:11 *dandersen* sighs. 20:11:14 bread08: Anyway, what pkhuong said. 20:11:21 bread08, especially if you're handling money 20:11:36 um.. in common lisp, it's (defun square (x) (* x x)), right? 20:11:42 Fare: Are you talking about the same Fortress that I am? 20:11:47 as opposed to the book's (define ... ) 20:11:51 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:12:02 coyo: yes. if you want to learn the specifics of common lisp, try a book about common lisp. 20:12:05 tmh: language being developed at Sun labs? 20:12:15 okay 20:12:16 Fare: Yes. 20:13:09 Fare: Have you played with it? 20:13:30 System error: Undefined Access Level Exception: conflicting commands from equal access level peers 20:13:32 tmh: nope. But if you're around Boston next week, you can probably have a nice demo. 20:13:46 --more-- 20:13:53 coyo: what system tells you that? 20:14:02 Fare: Thanks, but I'm afraid I'm not in Boston. 20:14:47 so, should i continue reading this book, though i do not wish to learn scheme, or should i switch another of the many books you guise linked 20:14:48 ? 20:15:08 coyo: it is a good book about thinking, and it uses scheme as a tool to help teach. 20:15:24 wow - guys -> guise. I like it. 20:15:30 coyo: if your goal is to learn the details of using common lisp, get a common lisp-oriented book. 20:15:31 minion: Thank you. The first link and the paper seem to be interesting and, sadly the last link is not working. 20:15:31 np 20:15:39 coyo: SICP is a book everyone should read regardless of what language they want to work with 20:15:39 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:52 Fare: the important question, of course, is who will be responsible for the food. 20:15:58 should i read sicp before actually beginning any work? 20:16:18 that's a whole lot of not doing anything (but training) 20:16:44 coyo: If you want to actually write common lisp programs, Practical Common Lisp and Paradigms of AI Programming are two good books to start with. 20:16:53 no, starting with SICP is not a good idea unless, you want to learn Computer Science 20:17:06 okay...conflict resolved 20:17:11 as Xach says 20:17:14 *coyo* processes... 20:17:26 coyo: If you find that tough, try http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ first 20:17:46 Xach: do you want to order? 20:17:51 coyo: But tough can be good =) 20:17:57 it doesnt really give me any issues in difficulty 20:18:02 Fare: I don't think I will be able to attend. 20:18:05 :( 20:18:22 but i keep hitting issues in setting up my dev env 20:18:38 i think i managed to get something working with emacs 20:18:49 omg, though, i dont think i'm ready for emacs 20:18:57 coyo: I would imagine that actually writing CL is a surer path to enlightenment than just reading about it. Of course, be prepared to throw away the first few things you write. 20:19:02 coyo: im learning, i keep going back to practical common lisp, however i though "ansi common lisp" was a more gentle intro 20:19:50 reading < writing < reading+writing 20:19:56 @google ansi common lisp 20:20:04 proun: use Gentle Intro to Symbolic Computation if you don't know how to program already, and PCL if you're somewhat comfortable with various topics already. 20:20:05 oh 20:20:35 is there a way to learn lisp with gedit? 20:20:49 I would recommend you actually use SLIME 20:20:51 coyo: i don't think people have done much to make that a good lisp environment. 20:21:04 coyo: yes, you can even learn lisp with ed 20:21:08 you can write lisp with anything, but you really miss out on a lot if you don't use an interactive environment. 20:21:09 Ah, what Naggum would responder... 20:21:13 s/er// 20:21:18 I'm sure what the first lispers had was no better than ed. 20:21:25 coyo, just don't start counting the parenthesis 20:21:36 *coyo* sighs 20:21:37 i doubt there was ed 20:21:38 Fare: we've come a long way, of course :) 20:21:53 lispm, I said "no better" 20:21:53 pencil and paper 20:22:06 -!- bread08 [n=bread08@80.31.191.57] has left #lisp 20:22:07 Fare: you can *edit* lisp with something akin to ed, not learn it 20:22:13 I doubt there was even anything like ed 20:22:14 the french guy who was doing AI before Lisp in the 1950s was using punch cards. 20:22:16 Fare: for that, they used pen&paper 20:22:21 bread08 [n=bread08@80.31.191.57] has joined #lisp 20:22:33 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@ASt-Lambert-153-1-63-222.w83-204.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Pen&Paper4me"] 20:22:34 for CL development emacs/slime is *the tool* anything else is just a joke 20:22:50 on a Mac you can use the CCL environment 20:23:00 okay 20:23:00 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 20:23:03 or LispWorks Personal Edition on Linux/Windows/Mac 20:23:11 it seems i may need an emacs tutorial 20:23:27 is it possible to learn how to use emacs? 20:23:30 I wonder when will emacs have better default keybindings 20:23:39 it helps to have easy, searchable access on command - hyperspec lookup lispdoc.com shortcuts have been most helpful for me 20:23:56 coyo: You can learn the basics in a day and then start building on top of that. 20:24:16 coyo, install emacs and follow its own tutorial 20:24:29 also, i noticed that .lisp files compile to .fasl files 20:24:33 is that bytecode? 20:24:47 no 20:24:50 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 20:24:51 well, depends 20:24:54 machine code 20:24:57 since it's .fasl, I assume you mean SBCL 20:25:01 in which case it's machine code. 20:25:02 yus 20:25:10 They're not standalone binaries, which I assume is one of your next questions. 20:25:11 CLISP's .fas files are bytecode 20:25:34 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:25:41 interesting 20:25:50 coyo, try (disassemble (lambda (a) (+ a 1))) 20:25:56 so it's machine code, but cannot be executed on it's own 20:25:58 coyo: uh, there's an emacs tutorial 20:26:01 levy.. okay 20:26:01 is there a repo for xcl? 20:26:05 not sure why nobody pointed it out yet 20:26:07 C-h t 20:26:16 that's Control+h t 20:26:35 levy: the dojo build puts the result in a dojo- dir, right? 20:26:38 phf: No, not currently. 20:26:40 coyo: yes, because you need enough of a lisp to be able to run it. There are ways to dump standalone binaries that you can just click and run, though. 20:26:42 phf: I think Peter Graves is keeping his development repo private and just making release tarballs periodically 20:26:45 coyo: Yeah, C stands for Control, M stands for Meta (usually Alt; otherwise Escape). 20:26:53 for SBCL, that would be SAVE-LISP-AND-DIE 20:27:01 kami-, yes, that' because we can't use head, it is too fragile 20:27:11 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@nmd.sbx05947.fulleca.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:15 levy: i got a large output 20:27:22 would you like a copy in pm? 20:27:27 or pastebin? 20:27:28 sykopomp: Wasn't it you who wrote a nice blog post on how to use save-lisp-and-die? 20:27:37 coyo: I think he asked you to do that more for your own benefit 20:27:42 coyo: it's for your reading pleasure 20:27:42 okay 20:27:45 *coyo* reads 20:27:45 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-17.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:47 coyo, no thanks, I have my own 20:28:07 coyo, I was just trying to show you that lisp is compiled to machine code 20:28:24 i cannot really understand it 20:28:26 levy: but in wui, some paths use 'www/dojo/...' 20:28:33 it looks suspiciously like assembly 20:28:36 dandersen: nope. 20:28:44 though i dont know assembly 20:28:46 dandersen, you don't use save-lisp-and-die, you use cl-launch or xcvb to create an executable :) 20:28:50 lisppaste: url 20:28:51 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 20:28:53 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:57 coyo: paste any lisp code to that site. 20:29:09 kami-, hmm, I do have link dojo to the dojo-* in my hu.dwim.wui/www 20:29:11 coyo: in the case of SBCL, it *is* assembly. 20:29:17 levy: maybe create-links.sh could create a dojo/ which points to dojo-[0-9]+ 20:29:19 kami-, I suppose that should not be there though 20:29:26 dialtone [n=dialtone@93-33-230-31.ip46.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 20:29:27 Ralith had me install sbcl 20:29:41 i installed from the ubuntu repos 20:29:47 coyo: pastebin any lisp code or disassembly and people might try and explain it if they're in a good mood :) 20:29:57 kami-, where did you see www/dojo? 20:29:58 ooh 20:29:59 neat 20:30:15 uhoh, installing from the Ubuntu/Debian repos is not a good idea 20:30:26 levy: wait. I'll re-run the build 20:30:27 coyo: it shows whatever your implementation compiles to - SBCL/CCL & other native compilers will print assembly, CLISP would show bytecode etc. 20:30:28 it's fine to get your SBCL from there FOR NOW, but don't get any more software from there 20:30:49 p_l: CCL doesn't print assembly per se, but rather assembler instructions 20:30:53 (I think) 20:30:55 coyo pasted "(disassemble (lambda (a) (+ a 1)))" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87524 20:31:27 oh neat 20:31:33 that's extremely useful 20:31:38 Aszarsha [n=aszarsha@91-164-132-13.rev.libertysurf.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:20 levy annotated #87524 "optimized for speed" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87524#1 20:32:37 coyo: disassemble is also a great tool for optimization :-) (because you see what changes...) 20:32:52 that's fascinating 20:32:56 *coyo* is excited 20:33:07 you know that lisp is a slow interpreted language 20:33:31 coyo: be careful, you can spend hours trying to figure out what those disassemblies mean when you don't actually know how they work (I have...) 20:33:40 okay 20:33:49 p_l: hardware counters are ultimately more useful. 20:34:00 this is the time for me to pitch in and say - enjoy writing slow code 20:34:26 djkthx [n=yacin@lawn-143-215-206-166.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 20:35:00 coyo: so I guess a general lesson that you can learn about modern CL compilers, from those two disassemblies, is the difference in the way the addition is done 20:35:04 pkhuong: sure, but it helps to understand what changed :-) 20:35:13 kami-, when building there are 3 continue restarts you will have select 20:35:40 kami-, no oracle, maybe no sqlite installed and some constant whatnot 20:36:09 *coyo* nods 20:36:13 In line C2 of the first disassembly, there's a call to another function. That function is called "generic" because it needs to deal with varying types 20:36:59 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:37:01 on the other hand, in the second disassembly, because you've declared that A is a fixnum, and that (+ a 1) is a fixnum, the compiler doesn't need to call the generic function 20:37:21 ah! 20:37:23 it can directly use the processor's addition operation 20:38:02 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 20:38:12 whoa, wait a minute.. 20:38:15 note however that the function will have undesired behavior if you pass something that's not a fixnum (or if you pass the largest positive fixnum) as A 20:38:37 when i enter code to be interpreted, it's transformed into assembly on the fly? 20:38:46 coyo: on some implementations, yes 20:38:46 in SBCL -- yes 20:38:53 O.O 20:39:02 (although you can choose a setting which will interpret the code instead) 20:39:03 it is interpreted by your CPU 20:39:08 *coyo* takes a cold shower and returns 20:39:24 :3 20:39:25 coyo: There are a number of languages that do this. They're just not the most widely-used :p 20:39:49 levy annotated #87524 "beware of optimizations" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87524#2 20:40:36 coyo: part of what makes this very practical is that CL is often developed in a bottom-up style, with many pieces building up to your final app which you can compile individually, on the fly, as you write them. Compiling a completed CL app from scratch actually still takes some time. 20:40:46 -!- greyhame [n=jao@75.Red-88-6-168.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:41:15 levy: that should be read as "beware of (safety 0)" 20:41:37 though I believe a complex C++ project still compiles longer :D 20:42:13 p_l: Longer than just about anything, really :p 20:42:14 p_l: yes, I imagine that Fare would not be writing XCVB if ITA used C++ -- instead, he'd be gibbering mad by now :P 20:42:17 Adlai: that is significantly different than i expected :3 20:42:34 rmmphnht aeutaheoda rnoe raoedu rnd raoeud hd ntd rnoeaeouoedi rnfdntdr.yfpvwqbxk 20:42:37 so you develop the project over time, collecting functions and code? 20:42:50 Adlai: I think fare's been gibbering mad for a while already, as you can see. 20:43:03 coyo: I recommend that you look at some of the "Practical" chapters in PCL 20:43:14 *coyo* reads 20:43:41 *p_l* still considers the database his favourite 20:44:04 note to self: Extensible Component Verifiers and Builders Considered Harfmul 20:44:24 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177074171.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:34 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:45:00 (note how I'm gibbering mad in dvorak) 20:45:04 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:06 ... can't wait for counter-article 20:45:15 rme annotated #87524 "ccl disassemble output, for comparison" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87524#3 20:45:17 good night 20:45:22 serichsen: goodnight! 20:46:29 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06c9af.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:47:07 ... CCL uses "UUO" in its internal assembly? 20:47:18 (what's UUO?) 20:47:40 (on the PPC, does it use EIEIO ?) 20:47:42 chemical element? 20:47:57 Fare: I'm not sure what it means in CCL, but I recall UUOs from ITS 20:48:07 -!- nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:48:08 it means int #x1234 20:48:19 rme: When I do that same disassembly, I don't have a (recover-fn) at the beginning 20:48:45 ah rme is that from the PPC (or 32-bit x86)? 20:48:50 I guess the ITS uuo is where the name comes from. 20:49:00 Adlai: that's from a 32-bit ccl 20:49:04 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:09 ok, yes, I'm on x86_64 20:49:33 (where #x1234 is the operand to the INT instruction) 20:50:11 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-96.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:50:47 Adlai annotated #87524 "On CCL, with optimizers this time..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87524#4 20:51:24 eh oops, I messed up the optimize declaration there. 20:51:33 lispm annotated #87524 "lispm" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87524#5 20:51:36 looks like CCL guessed my intent, though :) 20:51:46 So I was poking through the slime contrib today... I usually just stick the general fancy contrib, repl and fuzzy complete. Im wondering if there is any other "must have" contribs people use, under sbcl at least 20:52:14 lispm: what is that from? an actual "LispM"? 20:52:24 yes 20:52:25 *coyo* is hilighted by "fuzzy" 20:52:55 mcspiff: slime-fancy grabs pretty much everything, I think. 20:53:13 well, not pretty much everything 20:53:21 it doesn't get slime-asdf 20:53:27 (I don't think) 20:53:29 slime-asdf? 20:53:47 what's slime-asdf? 20:53:48 Adlai: right 20:53:50 mcspiff: adds a few repl shortcuts for loading, compiling, and testing asdf systems, and opens all files that have warnings in them 20:54:03 my slime-setup argument is (slime-fancy slime-sbcl-exts slime-scheme slime-sprof) 20:54:29 ah just read about slime-sprof today, might as well throw that in too 20:54:39 Fare: ,load-system RET name RET 20:54:45 and ,test-system RET name RET 20:54:55 ok. 20:55:11 Adlai: before you said "it's fine to get your SBCL from there FOR NOW, but don't get any more software from there" 20:55:19 Adlai: why is that so? 20:55:33 johnny_z: the Debian CL packages are not well maintained 20:55:43 since when? 20:55:51 it has become public? 20:55:57 or is your own conclusion? 20:56:07 -!- gz_ [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 20:56:11 stassats`: thanks 20:56:17 johnny_z: regular visitors to this channel complaining about stuff not working, when they actually have something several months old. 20:56:20 I'm echoing a sentiment that I've heard often in this channel... 20:56:29 gz_ [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:56:29 -!- gz_ [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 20:56:43 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit ["leaving"] 20:56:48 not to mention, it seems to be installed in a funky way, which is not one of the more standardish methods used to install CL libs, such as clbuild. 20:57:05 -!- bread08 [n=bread08@80.31.191.57] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:57:12 levy: hu.dwim.wui/test/component.lisp +demo-stylesheet-uris+ 20:57:16 hmmm what about making a debian clbuild package available? 20:57:35 that way, people could just get clbuild, and then use that to set up SBCL, slime ,etc 20:57:54 Peter van Eynde said it might be a good idea 20:57:55 so which repo is the best? 20:58:01 red hats? 20:58:12 johnny_z: the SBCL repo 20:58:12 -!- stipet [n=user@c83-253-28-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["Goodnight!"] 20:58:22 oh i see, so a getf is like a dictionary in python 20:58:33 i'm talking about distro repos 20:58:45 I'd rather not use repos for CL stuff in general. In the case of arch linux, I like using the actual arch package for CL implementations, since they're generally up-to-date and sanely compiled. 20:58:48 coyo: rather ASSOC 20:58:51 johnny_z: I don't know of any distro that handles CL stuff well 20:59:05 not even my beloved Archlinux 20:59:12 *fe[nl]ix* waves hands 20:59:13 <_3b> gentoo actually has people who support it on this network, arch is probably second from what i've seen 20:59:19 for example, in the case of ubuntu, what has not gone well???? 20:59:58 what does now work in theri cl implements? 21:00:01 johnny_z: there's no one who want to maintain it, obviously 21:00:26 johnny_z: one annoying one is having an ancient SBCL. At least, last time I checked. 21:00:29 johnny_z: keep in mind that for some things (including the CL packages), Ubuntu's repos are the same as debian's 21:00:52 stats: i notice a lot of people on freenode affix their nicks with ` 21:00:53 rolling-release distros really play along much nicer with the way CL software is usually distributed. 21:00:56 yes 21:00:58 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:00:58 what does that mean? 21:01:00 basically they are the same 21:01:19 coyo: many IRC clients do that if your nickname is taken 21:01:20 coyo: we drink Kool Aid 21:01:29 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@nmd.sbx05947.fulleca.wayport.net] has quit [] 21:01:34 so archlinux has the best CL stuff? 21:01:35 some people like to leave it 21:02:20 johnny_z: gentoo has pretty good support, too. 21:02:33 Arch would, if anyone actually bothered to write PKGBUILDs for all the software out there. 21:02:36 but that's a bit of a pita. 21:02:41 so I just use clbuild 21:02:45 kami-, continue 21:02:45 clbuild is highly recommended. 21:03:20 what is clbuild for? 21:03:36 installing lisp software. 21:05:06 is it like darcs for haskell? 21:05:24 no 21:05:38 _jason0524 [n=thot@59-105-27-43.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has joined #lisp 21:05:42 darcs isn't for haskell 21:05:46 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@lawn-143-215-206-166.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:05:50 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:05:51 it's more like cabal 21:05:57 except clbuild sucks balls. 21:06:05 but it's the best we've got for now. 21:06:10 sykopomp: yes , sorry 21:06:13 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:06:16 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 21:06:17 i dont know why i fixated on darcs 21:06:20 i meant cabal 21:06:43 -!- johnny_z [n=anonymou@217.24.250.130] has quit [] 21:06:44 minion: logs? 21:06:44 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 21:07:07 sykopomp: no, the equivalent of cabal would be asdf. you certainly meant cabal-install 21:07:08 mishoo_ [n=mishoo@86-124-79-237.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 21:07:17 fe[nl]ix: yes, that. Sorry :) 21:08:15 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-237.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:08:20 -!- mishoo_ is now known as mishoo 21:08:51 levy: yes. build completed. 21:08:54 guys, what's this "dwim" thing anyway? 21:09:12 kami-, hu.dwim.home --help 21:09:15 peddie_ [n=peddie@c-67-170-201-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:18 or just start it 21:09:20 wchogg [n=wchogg@host-243-188.pubnet.pdx.edu] has joined #lisp 21:09:45 kami-, BTW, build-image.sh supports building an image from another 21:09:56 kami-, so you don't have to wait so long 21:09:58 levy: wow! command line usage 21:10:12 kami-, database is not used for now 21:10:35 but surely will need to for the blog 21:10:50 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-98-108.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:11:25 levy: hmm. unhandled condition in --disable-debugger mode, quitting 21:12:06 -!- proun [n=proun@cpe-76-180-85-22.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["leaving"] 21:12:33 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:12:43 kami-, mkdir /tmp/wui 21:12:44 kami- pasted "error starting hu.dwim.home" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87525 21:12:48 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:12:50 maybe 21:13:00 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 21:13:12 levy: no /tmp/wui is already there 21:13:19 kami-, oh no, that's an easy one 21:13:29 kami-, a one liner package problem 21:13:39 kami-, I just not remember which package and where, moment 21:15:06 antoszka_ [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:15:18 levy: that's the bordeaux-thread stuff... 21:15:32 I know, I'm already putting it up on the server 21:15:39 -!- antoszka_ [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Client Quit] 21:15:40 i'll commit a change that will get rid of a bogus usage of with-timeout sometime tomorrow 21:15:55 it should be a with-deadline 21:16:02 #+sbcl for now 21:16:20 but i'm going offline now... see you guys 21:16:29 catzilla [n=catzilla@unaffiliated/catzilla] has joined #lisp 21:16:32 bye 21:16:49 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 21:17:34 kami-, darcs pull http://dwim.hu/darcs/bordeaux-threads 21:17:48 3 pathces 21:17:51 at least 21:17:59 levy: will do 21:18:47 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:18:57 -!- catzilla [n=catzilla@unaffiliated/catzilla] has left #lisp 21:19:13 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6DBDA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:19:18 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6DBDA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:49 o.O 21:19:55 kami-, seems some patches are already in the mainstream repo 21:20:23 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:21:36 levy: I had the official repo, here 21:22:11 kami-, yeah I guess because I forgot to put up the branch on the server 21:22:19 I think that branch will be removed soon 21:22:21 levy: I merged those patches yesterday(more or less) 21:22:31 fe[nl]ix, nice :-) 21:23:00 fe[nl]ix, I should give a try than, it's just too late 21:23:50 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-170-201-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:26:34 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:27:55 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:28:28 levy: that error is fixed, but the first request leads to a backtrace 21:29:37 kami- annotated #87525 "next error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87525#1 21:29:39 -!- _jason0524 [n=thot@59-105-27-43.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has quit [Client Quit] 21:30:38 kami-, hmm, some create-links,sh should be run somewhere 21:30:48 dtulig [n=user@adsl-99-169-41-182.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:07 are there any links in your hu.dwim.home/www? 21:31:54 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-221-176.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:13 kami-, cd hu.dwim.home/www ; sh etc/create-links.sh 21:33:05 levy: I did run it, but it doesn't create a dojo link 21:33:09 rme: thanks 21:33:13 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:15 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:36:04 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:36:13 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:36:50 -!- pepone [n=pepone@91.117.11.105] has quit ["KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: 3437, sources date: 20090703, built on: 2009/09/09 21:03:17 UTC http://www.kvirc.net/"] 21:37:38 is there a convention for a one character sign for being optional/mandatory? 21:37:41 o/m? 21:38:09 -!- dtulig [n=user@adsl-99-169-41-182.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:38:11 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-168.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 21:39:21 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177074171.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:40:09 kami-, try adding it by hand 21:40:53 ln ../../hu.dwim.wui/www/dojo-18738 dojo 21:41:05 hmm, that should not be needed btw 21:41:36 kami-, same error still? 21:41:58 -!- rickardg [n=user@c-4e7271d5.027-77-6c756e10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:42:05 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32D1F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:11 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:42:32 levy: the dojo/ link IS needed. And it is not created by the shell script. 21:42:40 levy: after creating it by hand, it works 21:43:28 kami-, hmm, attila knows better what is the intention about that link, but anyway I'm happy you managed it 21:44:16 levy: the link is needed, because tundra.css is searched under /static/dojo/.... 21:44:33 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:45:05 levy: the dojo-relative-path stuff is expected to use the url with dojo-18... ? 21:45:14 levy pasted "hu.dwim.wui hello world web server" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87528 21:45:20 kami-, ok 21:45:37 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:45:49 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:46:53 Thank you, levy. I'll go to bed. 21:46:59 Good night, everyone. 21:47:08 gooodnight kami- 21:47:12 *Adlai* heads off too 21:47:17 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-174-63.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 21:47:24 farewell, fellow seekers of the ineffable flame 21:47:47 time to leave, bb 21:47:51 is it already 03:00? 21:47:59 wow, everybody is bailing out all at once! 21:48:03 heh 21:48:07 no, it's just 23:48, :-) 21:48:10 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 21:48:31 actually one of my friends started working at this time every day 21:48:31 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-246-229.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 21:49:04 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #lisp 21:49:05 <_3b> doesn't sound any worse than any other 'same time every day' schedule :p 21:49:26 yeah, the problem is "working" :) 21:49:57 <_3b> nah, problem is being awake at same time 21:50:35 <_3b> (unless you limit 'working' to having a job, in which case that part might be bad too) 21:50:49 *coyo* will still be here for some time 21:51:41 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:53:01 with or without a job, I limit 'working' to 'making a living', and it's always boring.. :-/ but one has to do it 21:53:59 mishoo: That's bullcrap. 21:55:34 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:55:43 *_3b* gets back to not boring, but not quite 'making a living' yet working :p 21:55:52 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 21:56:07 _3b: one of these days you'll be making a grand living from rotating dwarves! 21:57:18 <_3b> heh, at the moment cheesy flash games seems like an easier route to making some sort of living, if not quite grand 21:58:28 <_3b> spinning dwarves is just a temporary vacation :) 21:58:47 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-224-065.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:59:16 maybe.. spinning 'em in flash, eh eh? 21:59:21 win - win 21:59:37 <_3b> maybe, that would take a bit more work on potimization for my flash compiler 21:59:43 <_3b> *optimization 22:00:03 You have a flash compiler? 22:00:26 <_3b> yeah, surely you have seen me linking stuff from it here or in #lispgames 22:00:52 Possibly. I forget stuff :) and I don't keep track of flash. (: 22:01:00 _3b: flash compiler? can we see it? :) 22:01:19 I'm using mtasc for such things, it seems rather unmaintained but still works fine 22:01:24 <_3b> you can see an old version, haven't published the current version yet 22:01:28 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 22:02:09 <_3b> planning to try to work on gettin that cleaned up/released around end of this month/beginning of next 22:02:38 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:55 <_3b> then try to start writing silly flash games, and see if lisp can cut dev time enough to make it profitable :p 22:03:23 Wasn't there that flash game with lisp in the background. 22:03:26 neurosomething 22:03:36 neuroarena 22:03:39 also puzzlefarter 22:03:43 <_3b> neuroarena, has a lisp server if i remember right 22:04:02 *schme* googles puzzlefarter. 22:04:12 it sounds.. intense 22:04:25 <_3b> did that have any lisp involved in the actual game? 22:04:41 *_3b* thought it was just web infrastructure around it that used lisp 22:04:42 No. Tools only. 22:05:36 LOL 22:07:41 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.79.143] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:07:43 <_3b> guess i should translate cameras and lights next, theni think i will have all of the assimp scene data converted to lisp 22:08:10 <_3b> need to clean up the material stuff though, once i figure out how it actually works :) 22:08:46 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has left #lisp 22:08:51 _3b: Are you making a 3d version of dwarf fortress there? 22:09:00 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:09:16 <_3b> nope, just writing bindings for the a lib, no actual specific use in mind 22:09:18 3d dwarf fortress in Lisp... drooooool 22:09:34 *_3b* should play dwarf fortress one of these days 22:09:57 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has joined #lisp 22:10:27 *coyo* sighs, contented, and takes a break from reading 22:11:12 _3b: I tried playing it. People highly recommended it. I didn't understand it, and nothing seemed to happen for ages (: 22:12:48 <_3b> yeah, not sure the specific implementation is something i would like, but it has a lot of overlap with my interests 22:12:59 *_3b* would probably actually like a 3d lisp version :) 22:14:43 upy [n=upy@85.139.121.254] has joined #lisp 22:14:48 hi 22:14:53 newcmr [i=5816ae66@gateway/web/freenode/x-pkcaajfokajcsmvg] has joined #lisp 22:15:13 -!- mcdonji [n=mcdonji@70.75.0.48] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:17:37 *Fare* stays miles away from dwarf fortress for fear of losing what is left of his free time. 22:19:02 <_3b> yeah, that sort of thing can be a problem 22:21:25 chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-73-92-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:00 my friends are in the middle of a dwarf fortress craze 22:22:11 they are currently playing a succession game 22:22:24 i opted out because i dont like playing single player games 22:22:26 danlei [n=user@pD9E2FC20.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:08 i may end up joining in since they seem so determined to have me 22:28:49 -!- newcmr [i=5816ae66@gateway/web/freenode/x-pkcaajfokajcsmvg] has left #lisp 22:29:56 kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:14 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:30:25 -!- upy [n=upy@85.139.121.254] has left #lisp 22:33:30 sykopomp|out [n=user@c-75-72-22-252.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:13 -!- coderdad_ [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:36:48 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 22:36:55 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:43:04 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:45:01 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:46:10 -!- phf [n=user@146.145.38.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:47:14 -!- kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:51:26 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-42.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:53:40 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 22:54:44 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:56:34 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:58:06 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-174-63.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has left #lisp 22:58:21 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:09 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:29 hello all from the tc lisp meeting o/ 23:00:06 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:00:30 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 23:01:11 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 23:01:24 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 23:02:37 ``Erik [i=Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:36 -!- ``Erik [i=Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:05:01 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:07:35 ``Erik [i=Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:38 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:08:50 sykopomp|out: who else is there ? 23:08:52 sykopomp|out: hello! 23:08:55 OMouse? 23:09:14 Xach: no omouse here, optikalmouse is over in Toronto 23:09:25 fe[nl]ix: um, not a lot of people right now. No one from #lisp I think. 23:09:49 oh, right. for some reason i thought tc lisp was toronto, canada lisp 23:09:52 *Xach* shamed 23:09:58 sorry, twin cities 23:12:56 looks like the talk is mainly about CCL's ffi 23:13:29 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:13:53 is someone recording the meetup on video ? 23:14:33 hm. It doesn't look like it, unless someone has a camera/webcam hidden somewhere. 23:16:36 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:16:37 :) 23:17:00 i need lisp role models ;) 23:17:21 *_3b* can ffi to assimp from ccl :p 23:17:24 Dawgmatix: some of the previous lisp meetings are recorded on video 23:17:38 _3b: the guy doing the presentation is doing stuff involving an actionscript compiler. 23:17:50 <_3b> sounds like fun 23:17:53 _3b -> is the assimp code available somewhere ? 23:17:59 from what I gathered, he's doing something weird where the compiler is in ocaml, and he uses it from lisp or something like that? 23:18:17 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:18:18 <_3b> Dawgmatix: http://github.com/3b/classimp 23:18:19 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 23:18:35 <_3b> HaXe? 23:18:36 thankoo 23:18:51 <_3b> Dawgmatix: don't expect to be able to do much with it atm though 23:19:01 just going to read it for ffi-foo 23:19:18 <_3b> you need a few hacked libs (particularly on ccl) 23:19:36 <_3b> ah, feel free to read it then, dunno if it is particularly good style though, still figuring out the lib 23:19:53 i plan to work through the art of multiprocessor programming and implement the algos + data structures present in the book 23:19:54 *_3b* just started out with verrazano, and is cleaning it up from there 23:20:07 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-237.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:20:16 so i might need some blocking primitives in c :) 23:20:51 <_3b> Dawgmatix: that sounds risky, probably better to try to go through whatever the lisp provides 23:21:19 Dawgmatix: eh? your implementation probably provides most of what you need, and FFI is unlikely to be well-suited for the rest. 23:21:27 i see. 23:22:20 jeti` [n=jeti@p548EFDFE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:40 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:24:38 _3b: what groveler did cl-opengl use to generate initial bindings/ 23:24:49 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 23:25:18 <_3b> sykopomp|out: no groveler, it parses various files from opengl.org, see the tools dir 23:25:33 oic 23:25:43 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:26:09 <_3b> not completely sure that is actually the best strategy, but more or less works 23:26:48 <_3b> and better options would probably involve something similar anyway 23:29:29 HET2 [n=diman@81.106.134.194] has joined #lisp 23:29:47 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442325.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:30:55 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["leaving"] 23:30:59 -!- jeti [n=jeti@p548EFC69.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:38:49 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:41:47 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:45:30 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:47:56 pkhuong: likely. 23:47:57 djkthx [n=yacin@lawn-143-215-206-166.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 23:48:21 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:26 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:49:02 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:49:05 ruediger [n=ruediger@93-82-4-117.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 23:49:17 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:54 -!- HET2 [n=diman@81.106.134.194] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:53:17 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:04 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:56:31 _jason9406 [n=thot@59-105-27-43.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has joined #lisp 23:56:35 good moaning all 23:58:03 *redline6561* wishes he was hacking lisp instead of doing CLRS hw 23:58:44 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:59:40 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp