00:00:39 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 00:01:14 well that's a concern 00:08:47 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has left #lisp 00:10:56 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 00:12:13 -!- tcr [n=tcr@138.246.7.146] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:12:16 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-90-140.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:16:53 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:18:28 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:37 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Rebooting why not"] 00:21:21 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 00:23:58 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 00:25:44 -!- tagac [n=user@88.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["/* */"] 00:25:52 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:29:35 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit ["good night"] 00:29:59 proun: I prefer clisp (with its interpreter to debug). 00:30:24 proun: but I don't know if we can say that one is better than another. Rather, they're different. 00:31:03 i guess i'm just looking for one that tells me the place thigs went wrong :P 00:31:23 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 00:31:25 None will really do it. 00:31:51 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:08 proun: use backtrace to identify the place. 00:33:10 ive been using sbcl in emacs, it seems like my trace is full of sb-specfic stuff before i get to my code 00:33:56 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-17.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:21 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:37:51 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@77-22-58-33-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:38:43 -!- kingless [n=user@adsl-144-140-128.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:39:26 _3b: on ccl, NATIVE-TRANSLATED-NAMESTRING is probably the best thing to use on a pathname if you want a string that you can pass to a foreign function. And you might also want WITH-FILENAME-CSTRS when it comes time to convert that lisp string into the C string that you actually pass to the foreign code. 00:42:03 <_3b> would the with-filename-cstrs do anything different than the normal cffi string translation? 00:44:13 I'm not familiar with CFFI, so I don't know. 00:44:42 <_3b> it looks like cffi-sys:native-namestring calls ccl::native-translated-namestring, so i will just stay with that for now 00:45:42 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-250.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:45:59 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:49:26 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-160-168-162.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:50:08 I think with-filename-cstrs may be fairly new. We added the notion of a default pathname encoding, and with-filename-cstrs respects that. 00:52:20 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:58:27 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 01:03:55 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:37 <_3b> luis: any objection to wrapping a continue restart around all the cl-glut callback generic functions? 01:05:32 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 01:05:44 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-181-16.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 01:06:14 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:07:47 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 01:07:57 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:08:39 <_3b> actually, i guess some of them would be better with a retry restart instead, doesn't do much good to continue if initialization gets interrupted :) 01:09:17 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:06 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:05 _3b: im just starting with cl-opengl, do you use a library for importing images/models? 01:12:30 <_3b> proun: working on bindings for a model import lib now 01:12:40 Does anyone know if there's a significant difference between (defun) and (defmethod), except with (defmethod) considering argument types? 01:12:44 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 01:13:21 _3b: oh cool, i'll keep watching then. collada support? 01:13:22 necroforest: you can define :before, :after, and :around methods 01:13:38 <_3b> i think i've uses cljl, lispbuilder-sdl-image, custom loaders for trivial formats, etc for image loading 01:13:44 is there any good reasons to use defun over defmethod? 01:13:49 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:13:50 like less overhead? 01:14:03 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 01:14:26 <_3b> proun: yeah, not sure how complete, but at least loads geometry from them 01:14:48 <_3b> proun: http://assimp.sourceforge.net/ is the library 01:15:01 i was wondering if the image-magick or frreimage bindings would work 01:15:36 ah ok, i saw xachs blog post, that's you then :) 01:15:44 <_3b> http://github.com/3b/classimp is my bindings 01:15:52 <_3b> yeah 01:16:31 *watching* git repo 01:16:31 no real names! 01:16:52 <_3b> any image loader should work, as long as you can get at the pixel data 01:17:27 <_3b> for serious use, you would want something that loads the data into some form you can pass directly to GL 01:17:57 <_3b> which most of the FFI based ones probably do, not as sure about the CL ones 01:18:24 gonzojive [n=red@DN800cf50a.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 01:19:20 i saw some c implementations using freeimage, there was a small issue with freeimage's format being BGR or something, so they had to translate 01:19:43 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954F41A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:20:17 <_3b> yeah, that and alignment are probably main things you need to worry about 01:20:44 <_3b> if you don't need to support ancient hardware, you can probablyt just let GL translate from bgr though 01:21:49 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:22:15 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.218.80] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:22:31 vey cool, good luck with the assimp bindings - i'll be testing them out 01:22:49 DevIL is able to load images straight into textures, iirc. 01:23:12 <_3b> oh yeah, devil was the other name i was trying to remember 01:23:32 DevIL also loads mp3s 01:23:33 are there cffi bindings for that one? 01:23:43 yeah, I like the bindings, myself. 01:24:19 cool, will check out 01:24:45 *_3b* will hopefully need to try those soon, if i can ever stop breaking random things and get to the materials stuff in assimp 01:25:07 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.101.217] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:26:45 with devil: (ilut:gl-load-image *filepath*) => new texture name 01:26:52 that's all 01:27:01 <_3b> cool, can it load from memory too? 01:27:06 well that's nice 01:27:08 *_3b* will need that for a few formats 01:27:11 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:27:12 I believe so. 01:27:26 there's a couple of different image loading things. 01:27:32 but the file loading is really convenient. 01:27:44 <_3b> now i just need to figure out why it doesn't want to compile #.(/ 0.0 0.0) anymore 01:28:00 the API is basically the same sort of idea as gl, and it follows similar package conventions 01:28:17 so you have IL and ILUT, and it's sort of state-machine-ish 01:28:33 the freeimage/image-magick libs seemed more for image processing 01:30:11 jcw [n=jcw@madder.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 01:30:11 -!- prxq_ [n=mommer@f051165233.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:31:12 *_3b* wonders why ido-find-file ignores .fasl but not .lx64fsl files 01:31:24 danlei [n=user@pD954F41A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:17 hm 01:33:27 what's the best way to convert a symbol into a keyword? 01:33:31 i.e. 'foo -> :foo 01:33:39 <_3b> ah, was looking at the wrong configuration variable 01:34:16 <_3b> (alexandria:make-keyword 'foo) ? 01:35:45 mogunus [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:40 _3b: I'd rather not bring in any big deps like that :/ 01:37:04 -!- mogunus [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:37:21 *_3b* didn't think alexandria was a big dep, but you could always just grab the function out of it 01:37:28 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:37:50 Ralith: I usually just grab individual chunks of alexandria unless it's okay to have a dependency :P 01:38:35 <_3b> or there is (sb-int:keywordicate 'foo) :) 01:39:13 -!- Nshag [n=shag@Mix-Orleans-106-2-145.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:39:21 _3b: impl-specific is no fun either >_> 01:39:31 can I find alexandria's code online anywhere or am I gunna have to download? 01:40:15 <_3b> http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=alexandria-alexandria;a=tree 01:40:21 yey 01:40:21 ty 01:40:36 <_3b> symbols.lisp specifically 01:40:53 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442325.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:40:59 oh hey 01:40:59 Ralith: (intern (symbol-name 'foo) :keyword)? 01:41:01 that is a simple function 01:41:02 yes 01:41:12 ty ^^ 01:41:27 <_3b> alexandria uses string instead of symbol-name, even shorter :p 01:42:10 okay, my first actually useful macro finished 01:42:14 :D 01:42:24 does it have to be a macro? :P 01:42:27 yes 01:42:31 thus 'actually useful' 01:42:32 HMMM 01:42:39 I'm not certain whether or not I've transgressed on something though 01:42:42 let's see this macro! 01:42:47 because it seems like something that would be common 01:42:53 lisppaste: help 01:42:53 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 01:43:21 -!- jcw [n=jcw@madder.xs4all.nl] has quit [] 01:43:31 jcw [n=jcw@madder.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 01:43:41 Ralith pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87337 01:43:46 for use with defclass 01:44:31 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:34 (defclass my-trivial-class () (make-slots (:initargs t :keywords t) color texture flavor)) 01:44:50 er 01:44:56 s/:keywords/:accessors/ 01:45:21 hm 01:45:29 minion: please tell ralith about defclass-star 01:45:29 ralith: please look at defclass-star: The end of the page was reached before a definition was found in http://www.cliki.net/defclass-star 01:45:36 :) 01:45:55 okay, so it's a valid thing to do 01:45:56 yay ^^ 01:46:14 also that his a horrible wiki page 01:46:20 "see the site for details" 01:46:22 no link to the site 01:47:29 Ralith: defclass doesn't work like that. 01:47:35 Xach: huh? 01:47:41 prxq_ [n=mommer@f051196247.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 01:47:45 Ralith: the evaluation rules aren't normal. you can't put a form in there and have it use the result. 01:48:03 Ralith: you could, of course, write a macro that uses make-slots in some way to generate the expansion. 01:48:32 oh damn. 01:48:47 well it was fun to write anyway 01:48:50 *Ralith* will just go steal defclass* 01:48:51 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-120.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:49:39 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-183.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 01:49:56 I am very glad that lisp doesn't tend to attract GPL fanatics 01:50:30 does anything? 01:50:30 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:50:44 sykopomp: some communities tend to 01:50:47 biggest GPL fans I know are not even programmers. 01:50:51 "fans" 01:50:58 heh 01:52:30 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-90-140.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:52:54 sadly many people equate free software/open source with gpl 01:53:17 I dig the GPL for some uses. 01:53:28 it may be said the people who caused that confusion were the GPL advocates 01:53:47 who go out of their way to deride anything as not free software or open source that is not GPL 01:54:51 or at least try to make that impression 01:54:52 or worse, you license something as free-for-non-commercial-use, and man, it is like you murdered someone 01:55:06 or like you raped a baby 01:55:12 i mean, you are stigmatized and mocked 01:55:15 <_3b> or like you went off topic on irc :p 01:55:30 fallacy, there is no topic that is not relevant to irc 01:55:52 <_3b> on, not to 01:56:33 <_3b> it is not relevant to this channel 01:56:39 *redline6561* finally finishes Coders at Work 01:56:56 whoa, can't a guy leave a channel for a minute and not come back to baby rape? 01:57:01 does anyone has a good free newsserver for lisp and emacs related 01:57:01 stuff ? 01:57:20 which is somewhat recent and maintained ? 01:57:24 bah 01:57:48 searching for one is a hell of struggle 01:58:01 redline6561: i didn't invoke godwin's law, consider yourself lucky 01:58:03 sepult: i've seen one mentioned, but the name slippedd my mind. something cheese-related iirc. 01:58:40 *Xach* digs 01:58:45 eihrul: Thanks for your compassion. :P 01:59:16 grumble. slime makes sbcl wake up far too often 01:59:18 -!- ignas_ [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:59:58 Xach: i just now one, news.gmane.org but it seems to be pasee 02:00:32 sepult: that's pretty good, i use that for a few mailing lists. 02:00:47 TDT [n=dthole@254.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:54 sepult: there's a free comp.lang.lisp (and more?) nntp server 02:01:22 ah yes 02:01:26 http://www.eternal-september.org/ 02:01:52 formerly motzarella 02:02:05 I was about to ask what the hell that had to do with cheese. 02:03:46 *Xach* pays for access via news.individual.net 02:04:21 You can get this newsgroup through google groups as well. 02:04:40 that one is painful 02:04:52 google groups has Problems 02:05:24 I haven't noticed too many, what problems have you encountered? 02:05:33 so much spam 02:05:46 <_3b> you could always read the weird vbulletin forum mirror of it 02:06:03 TDT: 96% of the posts visible in google groups are spam 02:06:08 <_3b> don't think that is any better spamwise though 02:06:12 spicey [n=e@87.99.83.235] has joined #lisp 02:06:26 -!- gonzojive [n=red@DN800cf50a.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 02:06:34 ive been reading lispforum.com a bit, but im not a big "forum guy" 02:06:54 hmm, I haven't seen much spam, but then again I haven't spent that much time on them...I probably should, though. 02:07:05 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:07:10 more having fun with project eular lately :) 02:07:15 <_3b> yeah, lispforum is at least only on lispforum, reading usenet through a webforum seems odd :p 02:07:56 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 02:09:25 google is hiding all the relevant ones, fuck it 02:09:51 forget it 02:09:56 i'm reading the little schemer book, and following the examples in lisp (ccl). i'm stuck on a simple example with recursive curried function, and can't figure out how to do that in lisp: http://codepad.org/KFy9f8y3 , would you point me plz in the right direction? 02:10:31 i think it's not nearly helpful to the users as to say developers... 02:10:48 and they'll have their own nets 02:11:00 minority report showing next! 02:11:16 <_3b> spicey: funcall testp 02:11:41 -!- spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:12:11 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 02:12:11 <_3b> spicey: also, you don't need FUNCTION around LAMBDA 02:13:07 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:13:27 aah, obviously. i was stuck looking at the last funcall line, thinking that there's an error and missed the previous testp call, thanks! 02:13:38 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 02:13:53 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 02:14:00 arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 02:15:36 is there a particular naming convention for all the trival-* packages? or is that just one of those lisp things? 02:16:25 whenever someone wants to manage 02:16:27 Xach: observation: I could just have done #.(...), couldn't I? 02:16:30 expectations 02:16:44 Ralith: yes or just used redshank. 02:16:54 heh, yeah, redshank did come to mind 02:16:58 haven't bothered to grab it just yet 02:19:18 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:20:48 sakdjalksdjkljf [n=adks@119.152.64.44] has joined #lisp 02:21:05 damo22 [n=dczammit@c114-76-69-221.thoms3.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:21:44 -!- sakdjalksdjkljf [n=adks@119.152.64.44] has left #lisp 02:24:48 how do i create a function that takes no arguments in lisp? 02:25:43 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 02:25:49 Hmm...seems like project eular is just...really easy with loops. 02:25:51 i tried (defun a () (....)) but i get variable unbound when i run a 02:25:56 saikat__ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:07 damo22: (a) 02:26:40 damo22: maybe your question should be "how do i invoke a function that takes no arguments" 02:26:54 fe[nl]ix: Looking for me? 02:27:51 Xach: defun a () (1) ---> (a) ---> Illegal argument in functor position: 1 in (1) 02:28:17 damo22: (defun a () 1) is the correct syntax 02:28:21 rtoym: any idea on how to debug https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=285363 ? 02:28:40 -!- jcw [n=jcw@madder.xs4all.nl] has quit [] 02:28:40 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176149217.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 02:29:03 Xach: thanks 02:29:33 scheme: (define insertL (insert-g seqL)), where insert-g takes a function as a parameter and returns a three-parameter-lambda. In lisp, do I need to define a function with strict predefined parameters and explicit call of insert-g? 02:29:41 Hmm. Firefox says that link is untrusted.... 02:31:12 rtoym: your firefox must be missing the CAcert root certificate 02:31:14 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:30 khm, my question was a global one, and was not directed to theoretical individual named scheme 02:32:23 -!- arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:32:33 fe[nl]ix: Aargh. So everything is built, and you're building the extra stuff now. First, I'd try an interactive build so cmucl stops with such errors instead of just exiting. 02:32:51 *rtoym* wonders why firefox is missing that root certificate. 02:34:51 rtoym: on my system it's in /etc/ssl/certs/ca-cert.pem 02:36:16 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B1B7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:36:39 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@c-69-248-128-195.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:37:56 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:43:15 hi, is there any way of evaluate a form at repl in a new thread in slime as when it is evaluated in a buffer? 02:43:40 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:44:12 I would like to invoke a (start) function without it blocks repl for me 02:44:13 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:44:38 I use the slime-scratch buffer for this actually, but It would work better at repl, I think. :-) 02:44:57 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has joined #lisp 02:45:35 paraphrasing the question. Here's a couple of tiny scheme functions from the little schemer which I've written in lisp: http://codepad.org/eRjqowLe but I'm concerned with my version of insertL: it looks terrible compared to scheme. Is this really the proper way to write a wrapped call to curried function? 02:45:38 `C-u C-u RET' or something so, it would be great 02:47:08 spicey: you can write seqL as (list* new old l) 02:47:08 <_3b> spicey: (defun foo (&rest args) (apply #'fun args)) ? 02:47:42 davazp: in ccl, you could say (process-run-function "my process" #'start) --- other lisps probably have similar functionality. 02:48:43 -!- saikat__ is now known as saikat_ 02:48:45 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-25-94.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:50:24 spicey: maybe call FUNCTION in your insert-g, so that insert-l can just be (funcall (insert-g 'seql) new old l) 02:50:40 What does "list*" do? (It's a bit problematic to go the rtfm way and search for it) 02:50:47 clhs list* 02:50:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_list_.htm 02:51:02 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit ["leaving"] 02:51:46 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:52:52 Hmm, lisp* solution seems to be currently out of my grasp 02:53:06 list* 02:53:37 (list* 1 2 3 4) => (1 2 3 . 4) 02:53:50 (list* 1 2 3 '(4 5)) => (1 2 3 4 5) 02:53:50 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 02:54:35 danlei` [n=user@pD954F41A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:50 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954F41A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:54:54 I got that, but I don't see how it applies to the seqL 02:55:31 (list* a b c) === (cons a (cons b c)) 02:55:58 I definitely need to get some sleep 02:56:26 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-036-234.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:56:33 (defun list* (&rest args) (append (butlast args) (car (last args)))) 02:56:35 if you stay up coding Lisp long enough, you'll have dreams in Lisp. Make your choice. 02:56:36 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 02:57:08 *Adlai* cringes at fe[nl]ix's example 02:57:22 fe[nl]ix: that walks the list three times :( 02:58:21 Adlai: insignificant details :D 02:58:51 fe[nl]ix: true. I'm probably suffering relapse from calling DISASSEMBLE too often 03:00:12 (lambda (x) (funcall #'(lambda (y) (+ y 1)) x)) is this round about, or is there shorter way? 03:01:17 I think you could just replace that with #'1+ 03:02:36 <_3b> (lambda (x) ((lambda (y) (+ y 1)) x) ? 03:02:55 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:03:06 ((lambda (y) (+ y 1)) 3) => 4 03:03:16 it's just 1+ 03:03:48 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@68.126.198.233] has joined #lisp 03:04:08 yeah, I was down the wrong path, and took an turn for the worse. 03:05:31 I don't think you ever need to (funcall (lambda ...) ...) 03:05:53 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-151-200-238-90.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:06:33 what's that Emacs regex again for catching all lisppaste URLs? 03:06:50 (for browse-url-browser-function) 03:11:35 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 03:16:18 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@125.236.55.43] has joined #lisp 03:17:13 -!- sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 03:21:36 Adlai` [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 03:22:05 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:22:08 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 03:23:05 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.208.29] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 03:24:03 jamesswift [n=jamesswi@203-214-17-77.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 03:28:03 hmm..do loops are kinda odd 03:28:41 fe[nl]ix: Sorry. Phone call. Can you reproduce that issue yourself? 03:29:10 manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6B4AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:32 TDT pasted "do-loop" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87341 03:30:02 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["RAGEQUIT"] 03:30:43 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-241-177.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:16 as I understand it, the do loop expressions are evaluated on the "old" data on each iteration through...so on the first go around, i = 1, tot 1, but on the next time without the (1+) for i on evaluating the step for tot, I evaluate 1 once again, so 1^2. Seems kinda odd to me in a way on that. 03:31:55 I guess do* will solve that problem, just feels odd though on why regular do acts that way :) 03:32:00 rtoym: no, but thanks for the suggestion. I'll have that guy do an interactive build and see what happens 03:32:20 now I'm going to sleep :) 03:32:30 fe[nl]ix: If you find something, let me know! Good night! 03:32:52 TDT: You can macroexpand do to see what it works out to be. 03:33:43 DO works in parallel, like LET. DO* is sequential, like LET* 03:34:15 Yeah, had to scratch mybrain to find that out, but it's an interesting use case. 03:34:27 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 03:41:14 coliv [n=Coliveir@69.248.128.195] has joined #lisp 03:43:59 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@118.210.192.189] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:44:14 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-17.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:48:28 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-250.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:36 lpolzer_ [n=sky@dslb-088-073-230-228.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:37 redline6561: herep 03:53:06 Coliveira [n=Coliveir@c-69-248-128-195.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:15 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:53:24 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 03:55:27 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6B4AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 03:59:04 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:59:11 p_l: herep 03:59:55 p_l: if you have some time, can you please take a look at the rails restful_authentication plugin and tell us what's going on? I know no ruby but i think i could use a similar beast for CL 04:01:09 this seems like overkill http://esw.w3.org/topic/foaf+ssl 04:01:31 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@69.248.128.195] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:01:52 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:02:49 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 04:03:19 we need to authenticate both web users and consumers of remote services; i just need to find out the basic 'algorithm'; is the rails thing using certificates? keeping a session? passing around an authentication token along with every call, etc. 04:03:21 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:03:43 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 04:03:49 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 04:04:02 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 04:04:37 -!- lpolzer [n=sky@dslb-088-073-247-096.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:04:56 p_l: http://wiki.github.com/technoweenie/restful-authentication 04:05:27 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:07:32 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 04:08:07 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 04:08:28 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:08:59 p_l: never mind, looks like a complete joke. cookie based :-) http://github.com/technoweenie/restful-authentication/blob/7235d9150e8beb80a819923a4c871ef4069c6759/lib/authentication/by_cookie_token.rb 04:09:24 this guy knows what he is talking about but he doesn't address authentication for ajax calls http://jcalcote.wordpress.com/2009/08/10/restful-authentication/ 04:12:31 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:13:16 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:42 hey fuss, he's a bit wrong -- "Somehow, each client must create a public key certificate and install it on the server." 04:14:01 you can issue signed certificates to the clients without installing them on the server 04:14:05 -!- TDT [n=dthole@254.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has quit [] 04:14:28 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.164.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:21:57 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:25:05 -!- proun [n=proun@cpe-76-180-85-22.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["leaving"] 04:27:25 -!- epichero [n=User@c-98-203-193-201.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 04:29:44 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@pool-71-184-180-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:32 MS on information architecturing: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-au/magazine/cc163845.aspx 04:36:03 thunk [n=user@96-28-112-51.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 04:39:05 Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.72.42] has joined #lisp 04:42:07 -!- damo22 [n=dczammit@c114-76-69-221.thoms3.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:42:47 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@pool-71-184-180-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:46:15 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-250.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:47:13 so... I'm using bordeaux-threads' condition variable API, and both sbcl and ccl deadlock after a couple of iterations of an algorithm 04:47:41 and no, I have no idea why, or what to look for. I'm fairly certain the algorithm is mostly correct, since it runs well on other implementations of a similar system. 04:49:41 post code :) 04:49:53 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:02 alright >_> 04:51:40 sykopomp pasted "threading issues" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87342 04:51:51 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 04:52:16 I'm pretty new to the whole concurrency thing, so I'm clueless about what's causing this, or even what to look for. 04:52:43 that code even basically follows BT's api documentation, too 04:52:55 http://trac.common-lisp.net/bordeaux-threads/wiki/ApiDocumentation <-- scroll down to resource contention. 04:53:05 sykopomp: you're misusing condition variables here. 04:53:09 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:53:30 pkhuong: What am I doing wrong? 04:53:31 Whenever you see a condition-wait outside a loop, you're likely looking at trouble. 04:54:07 You should see condvars as a tool to do smart polling. 04:54:46 Adlai [n=Adlai@93-173-140-203.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 04:56:14 condvars are allowed spurious triggers. So first, add enough information to know when the channel is empty/full, and then poll on that, and use the condvars to avoid wasting cpu time. 04:56:20 pkhuong: so something like (loop (c-w ...) (when x (do-something)))? 04:56:57 You probably also want to condition-broadcast, unless you're certain that every thread that could be interested in the condition will eventually get woken up. 04:58:44 there is only one producer and only one consumer for each channel? 04:58:54 c|mell: not necessarily. 04:59:06 ideally, it could handle many threads trying to send/recv 04:59:29 then you have to make sure that all the receiver threads have received before doing a send, and you don't do that at the moment afaics 04:59:46 c|mell: I don't think that's the semantics of the channel. 05:00:05 The receivers race for unique ownership of the message. 05:01:05 aha, so why not just use two locks and no condition variable (wait a minute i will think about this) 05:01:27 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:01:42 That makes for a much more powerful concurrency control primitive than broadcasting the same message to "all" (an unclear concept) the receivers. 05:02:15 oh 05:02:25 whichever receiver grabs the value first should get it. 05:02:38 and the others will have to wait until they win the race, I guess. 05:03:19 I thought that each channel "belonged" to a thread (like mailboxes) 05:03:39 not necessarily... 05:03:52 ok 05:05:24 o dammit my system doesn't work on posix, you do need a condition var 05:05:24 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:05:36 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:06 -!- r0bby|arr is now known as r0bby 05:07:26 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 05:07:54 All that you "need" is CAS and a GC (or an alternative like hazard pointers). 05:08:09 what is a GC? 05:08:15 garbage collector. 05:08:39 you want at least some way of waiting without burning CPU! 05:08:50 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:09:33 that's not "need"ed. Also, one could try and just go with some back-off scheme. 05:10:15 -!- rares [n=rares@130.13.166.217] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:10:31 actually, I think you don't even need to worry about ABA, so no GC, only a distinguished "empty channel" value. 05:10:50 you can do it with two futexes on Linux, because a process can unlock a futex held by another process (not with pthread mutexes) 05:10:55 pkhuong: yeah, I'm trying to use a sentinel value now, and polling for that. 05:11:15 that makes sense 05:12:35 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-166-217.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 05:14:54 smolyn [n=smolyn@S0106002500fe5c20.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:17 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:15:43 sykopomp: you'll need two sentinels, since your channels are synchronous. One for a channel that's ready to receive a value, and another for a channel that's been read, but whose writer hasn't been notified yet. 05:17:15 pkhuong: Hm. I figured grabbing hold of the lock would take care of that. 05:17:40 let me update the paste to show what I did... 05:18:06 sykopomp annotated #87342 "updated with empty-channel sentinel" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87342#1 05:19:15 sykopomp: both senders and receivers wait before ever notifying. 05:19:42 oh.... yeah. :| 05:19:44 Usually, you something like (loop while (not ready) do (condition-wait ...)) 05:20:46 so, re synchronicity... That usually means senders wait until their message has been received. 05:21:01 yeah, that's the idea 05:21:04 and the reader never resets the value to empty . . . 05:22:04 Now, not only is c|mell right, but your senders wait until their message has been sent, not until it's been received. 05:23:18 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-166-217.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:23:29 Here's an experiment: what should happen if you don't have any receiver in the system? No send should ever return. Yet, assuming channels are initialised to empty, the first send to any channel will return instantly. 05:23:49 gah 05:24:21 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-166-217.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 05:24:36 *c|mell* wonders if better semantics might be for the second send to block (as currently?) 05:26:13 -!- benny [n=benny@87.122.25.57] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:26:22 that gives the chance for the sender to do more work while the receiver is booting 05:27:23 c|mell: that's not what synchronous channels do. Again, you lose some power as a synchronisation primitive if you only implement a bounded queue. 05:28:31 pkhuong: I see what you mean now. Let me try and implement the two sentinels, then. 05:28:36 thanks, by the way. 05:28:54 * not strictly true, actually, since you can always build a synchronous protocol on top of that. 05:29:26 fair enough :) 05:29:59 pkhuong, i just came across your http://www.discontinuity.info/~pkhuong/string-case.lisp 05:30:42 is this still the best around or has it been updated? it looks sensible and i should integrate it into tpd2 05:32:12 That was mostly a demo. I ran actual numerical experiments for a presentation at the MSLUG, and a decent string= gives almost identical speed-ups with less complexity (in both the generator and the generated code). 05:32:32 Still, that version is as far as it gets. 05:33:30 *c|mell* wants another 5% noise boost in his benchmark to get ahead of c++ 05:36:57 with a decent string= are you already discriminating on the length of the string before doing string= 05:37:08 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-166-217.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:38:04 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-166-217.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 05:38:56 yup. First discriminate on the length, then a hand-rolled string= => nearly identical performance, except that Python won't blow up on large sets of cases. 05:41:55 danlei`` [n=user@pD954F41A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:04 -!- danlei`` is now known as danlei 05:42:34 -!- danlei is now known as Guest1924 05:43:20 thanks! 05:44:12 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:44:48 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-166-217.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:45:49 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-166-217.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 05:46:13 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 05:48:29 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-129-240.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:18 fusss_ [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:52:57 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:53:00 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 05:54:05 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-92-135.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:54:15 Good morning everyone! 05:54:44 c|mell: does any of the stuff you're doing deal with huge user-base management, private accounts, roles, etc.? 05:55:22 hey beach 06:00:41 -!- danlei` [n=user@pD954F41A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:00:49 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-241-177.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:01:52 hi fusss, no way i am a low-level guy -- though if you want a fast datastore let me recommend manardb :) 06:02:40 c|mell: manar in arabic means beacon, or lighthouse 06:03:39 you really might have caught me at a good time actually 06:04:07 c|mell: have you used manardb for anything in particular of note? 06:04:55 c|mell: how does it differ from little rucksack or elephant's :memory store? 06:05:49 i used it at work for a project that really pushed the performance requirements -- monitoring 100k+ routers every few minutes 06:06:22 doesn't sound like so much, but existing dbs were really not up to pushing around millions and millions of values 06:06:30 +1 06:07:17 c|mell: my ad server does 30k requests per second and only sane way i found was to maintain an in memory cache and page it to disk whenever it passed a certain threshold 06:07:24 fusss: #'1+, you mean? ;) 06:07:52 compared to elephant or rucksack, it doesn't challenge the lisp gc so much, and the os automatically pages it or not 06:08:13 c|mell: does manar have any serialization options, even as a second step; i.e. can I hook to the GC and page live objects to disk through an independent thread? 06:08:25 it is automatically paged to disk by the os 06:08:26 c|mell: I'm not sure how memcached works... what happens if you don't have enough RAM for your whole db? 06:08:48 does it only cache a given amount of memory, and keep the rest in the disk? 06:08:59 this is not related to memcached at all; the os pages it in and out of memory automatically 06:09:16 sykopomp: the OS pages it when it gets low on ram 06:09:39 it doesn't page it to swap, but to its backing file -- the whole thing is very efficient 06:09:48 so you just start swapping like a maniac? Is that better than what a DB would usually do? Is it still faster than running fully off the drive? 06:09:57 ah, to a file. 06:10:04 c|mell: how does it deal with crash recovery? 06:10:11 of the lisp process 06:10:21 as the file representation is the same as the memory representation -- so no serialisation/gc-overload issues 06:10:54 fusss, you can use transactions if you like but they copy the whole db at the moment, which is not so cool (that could be potentially be fixed) 06:10:57 that sounds pretty fantastic :-o 06:11:10 not the copying thing. 06:11:14 does manar use anar? 06:11:31 no, it replaces anardb which replaced allegrocache 06:11:38 fwiw, "anar" in arabic means hell :-P 06:12:00 good use of arabic names i guess :) 06:12:37 replaced allegrocache for whom, you or franz? 06:12:45 it was named as anardb was like an anarchic database as many processes could meddle with it at the same time, manardb because it was the mmap'd version of anardb 06:13:09 it replaced allegrocache in our project; don't worry franz is still using that junk 06:14:14 i like the machismo :-) 06:14:50 let me play with manardb in a few days; you might have your second commercial user :-) 06:15:25 c|mell: i can always catch you here, right? I will ping this c|mell nick or illitrit 06:15:48 *c|mell* has had consistently bad experiences with franz products :) 06:15:55 again, multiple lisp processes can access it right? 06:16:09 c|mell: are you "ilitirit"? 06:16:19 <_3b> sykopomp: got any simple known-working example code for cl-devIL? 06:16:42 _3b: not that you can run right now, but there's code that used to work with earlier versions of another library. 06:16:46 yes, and multiple threads, but you either need to use (expensive) transactions, do updates that don't need locking, or do your own locking 06:16:50 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:16:51 so the DevIL stuff is still valid. 06:17:14 Adlai, yes i am sometimes ilitirit :-) 06:17:34 (though on hackernews someone stole that nick to get karma) 06:17:52 "to get karma"? what do you mean? 06:18:00 c|mell: WHAT? 06:18:01 _3b: http://github.com/sykopomp/until-it-dies/blob/master/src/resources.lisp line 127 starts the file texture stuff. 06:18:35 Adlai: profit off ilitirit's fame, I guess. 06:18:37 well a link to my blog was on hackernews and someone signed up with ilitirit to write stuff on there :) -- unless i'm going insane and have two personalities 06:19:28 c|mell: he's been a member for 565 days http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=ilitirit 06:21:00 wow! so i nicked his nick on here! apologies to ilitirit, it was really strange to see his nick commenting on my blog :) 06:22:12 milanj [n=milan@79.101.204.13] has joined #lisp 06:23:34 -!- c|mell is now known as ilitirit 06:23:58 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:24:26 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest94412 06:28:14 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@125.236.55.43] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:35:05 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:40:38 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-078.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 06:41:50 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:42:19 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:54:25 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:56:38 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:58:48 hi pkhuong, i've pushed an improved string-case which first does length discrimination -- would be cool to have computed gotos . . . 07:00:26 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:04:22 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.208.29] has joined #lisp 07:04:57 scr1234 [n=pirate@121.140.79.205] has joined #lisp 07:05:36 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:06:12 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:10:50 raptelan [n=Casey@c-68-49-132-34.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:35 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:13:21 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 07:17:12 redblue [i=star@ppp024.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 07:17:58 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.221] has joined #lisp 07:18:02 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:18:06 pawel [n=pawel@89.108.217.103] has joined #lisp 07:18:10 reprore [n=reprore@116.82.73.92] has joined #lisp 07:19:38 any clozure devs around? the current trunk doesn't seem to be able to create symlinks in asdf-install on my snow leopard machine 07:20:00 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:22:57 lispm [n=joswig@e177126094.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:23:04 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-30-132.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:23:34 -!- kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:25:04 -!- scr1234 [n=pirate@121.140.79.205] has left #lisp 07:26:32 -!- icarus [n=tits@unaffiliated/icarus-/x-7520418] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:26:41 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:31:28 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 07:31:30 hello 07:31:36 mfk [n=user@kpbisb.static.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 07:34:23 -!- Guest1924 [n=user@pD954F41A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 07:37:28 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:43:32 chris_bryant [n=chris_br@cpe-75-84-206-87.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:46:35 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-30-132.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:48:37 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 07:52:25 -!- necroforest [n=jarred@pool-173-79-168-92.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:54:56 lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-113-8.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:55:09 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-078.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:56:31 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:57:14 -!- reprore [n=reprore@116.82.73.92] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:57:15 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-078.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 07:59:35 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:00:15 reprore_ [n=reprore@116.82.73.92] has joined #lisp 08:00:45 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-166-217.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:01:13 Is everything in cl an object? 08:01:29 no 08:01:40 exceptions? 08:01:43 Yes, and no, depends on your definition of object 08:01:55 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-166-217.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 08:02:08 For example, you CLASS-OF is meaningful on every datum, so perhaps that makes you say "yes" 08:02:35 and no? 08:02:53 leo2007, numbers, symbols, lists, vectors aren't object 08:03:22 leo2007: CLOS pretends that anything that isn't actually a CLOS instance is. 08:03:23 basically, (not standard-object) isn't an object 08:03:38 sykopomp, that's only for specializers to work 08:03:38 so you can, say, define methods that dispatch on string, even though stringst hemselves aren't instances. 08:03:56 leo2007: fixnums and characters do not have object identity under EQ (but then under EQL they do, so hrm that point is rather weak) 08:03:57 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@91.194.72.7] has joined #lisp 08:05:40 Thanks. I am reading about CLOS. 08:06:03 I am curious why some languages like python claim that everything is an object? 08:06:15 does python claim that? 08:06:29 I know ruby does. 08:07:13 sykopomp: I seem to remember so 08:07:17 It depends on the definition of object. For example, in Python you can't write 1.__str__() so perhaps that doesn't make numbers a real object 08:07:47 leo2007: usually what it comes down to is to whether you can use the object-oriented interface on all objects. 08:08:00 IMO an everything-is-an-object lisp would be unacceptably slow 08:08:01 (or at least a large enough subset of said interface) 08:08:43 sykopomp, well you can't subclass upon non-object types, with the exception of FUNCTION 08:09:03 weirdo: Please see that object is not restricted to STANDARD-OBJECT when talking about "everything-is-an-object" 08:09:06 weirdo: how does subclassing functions work? 08:09:09 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-239-230.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 08:09:22 tcr: or subclasses thereof? 08:10:16 sykopomp, (defclass foo (number) ()) 08:10:28 Adlai` [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:10:34 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 08:10:35 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:10:47 weirdo: number is not a function. 08:11:11 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:11:25 weirdo: And making everything subclassable does not need to make things slow. For example, after you subclassed whatever you want, you may call "(finalize-world)" which freezes the inheritance tree for built-in classes 08:11:27 hali 08:11:50 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:12:35 tcr, you can do (1).__str__(). 08:12:39 tcr, actually, it could freeze everything, to avoid GF dispatch 08:12:48 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:12:58 tic: Ah! 08:13:57 weirdo: Yeah true. Dylan was created with the goal to make everything an object, and still making the language more easily optimizable than CL 08:15:01 cltl3 has one good idea, querying the type inference subsystem from macros/compiler-macros 08:15:01 nus 08:15:04 oops 08:15:31 Not going to happen 08:16:02 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-90-140.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:16:17 girzel [n=user@123.121.238.249] has joined #lisp 08:17:25 why not? 08:18:30 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 08:18:58 pkhuong wisely points out that macros can alter the type inference stuff, so they must be expanded before type inference occurs 08:19:40 you need a second level of sort-of limited macro that can't do drastic things 08:19:43 Type inference is often performed as a fix-point analysis on a Control Flow Graph. There is not necessarily a 1-1 mapping back and forth from the original AST and the CFG. In SBCL/CMUCL for instance there isn't 08:20:12 Thanks all for the info regarding objects. I have some ideas about them now. 08:24:36 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:24:41 I want to do access checks (private, public, temp auth key) for incoming URLs (regex mapping) to all services on my web server (be they Lisp or PHP or ...). Will a Lisp front be fast enough (not a high-traffic site), or at the very least faster than PHP which I'd use otherwise? I guess the question is if Lisp is faster than PHP, heh. 08:25:44 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:26:00 tic, probably in php you would want to farm it off to a C function that would do the actual work 08:26:04 tic, of course lisp is faster in php 08:26:09 php is garbage 08:26:14 it's neither fast nor expressive 08:26:18 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:26:26 and cl-ppcre is faster than php's libpcre 08:26:31 I know, it's just a bunch easier to setup, unfortunately. I haven't gotten started with Lisp web hacking. 08:26:35 weirdo, ...that 08:26:41 weirdo, ...that's the key component. good! 08:26:55 tic, there are plenty of web frameworks 08:27:03 i also heard cl-ppcre is faster than perl's regular expressions, but may be mistaken 08:27:09 weirdo, none of which do what I want, of course. ;-) 08:27:15 i personally use fastcgi, never having found a single reason for using hunchentoot 08:27:19 (also, I like reinventing the wheel here) 08:27:23 tic, what do you want, exactly? 08:27:37 weirdo, i don't think that's true -- perl's regexps are very fast. here's some benchmarks http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irregsexp/ 08:28:08 weirdo, generalized access control for all resources on my server. a front looking at incoming requests and forwarding them if OK. Could sit on top of e.g. a WordPress blog. 08:28:53 Blaay [i=Blay@89.143.182.236] has joined #lisp 08:29:20 tic, most people would put that in lighttpd or nginx 08:29:23 tic, fastcgi has a thing called "authorizer" of somesuch 08:29:30 s/of/or 08:29:44 Can it generate temporary authkeys, label content with tags, etc? 08:30:02 if it doesn't support all I want, I'll have to write it myself. Or hack lighthttpd/nginx/fastcgi's authorizer. 08:30:37 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:30:46 dunno about lighttpd, but fastcgi can't do that 08:30:59 good! more fun for me, then! :-) 08:31:10 thanks for pointing them out though, looking at them now. 08:31:39 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:33:12 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:38:59 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 08:41:49 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:45:34 phadthai [i=mmondor@66.11.161.166] has joined #lisp 08:47:23 Adlai` [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:47:54 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 08:48:14 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 08:50:01 tic: what are you trying to do and why aren't you using hunchentoot? 08:50:46 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-19-214.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:50:51 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@116.82.73.92] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:52:49 if you're just serving static data, lighttpd has mod_secdownload 08:52:57 serichsen [n=svante@hmbg-4d06edf4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:01 good morning 08:53:08 controllable with both a secret and timeout 08:53:10 hey serichsen 08:53:14 dispatch by document or URL prefix 08:53:42 because there's a standard for web servers - now if hunchentoot could read apache.conf or read .htaccess files then hunchentoot could replace webservers 08:54:06 until then it forces you to reinvent the wheel 08:54:25 rares: there is a hunchetoot hack for reading .htaccess, even for virtual hosting 08:54:38 that doesn't sound too complicated 08:54:49 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.72.42] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:55:40 can hunchentoot read /etc/apache2/sites-enabled/? 08:56:19 i would be able to throw out apache2 and still use webmin to host 08:56:33 also just what is the performance? 08:56:34 (let ((security (make-hash-table))) (defun secure-prefix-dispatcher () (let ((prefix (third (split-sequence (request-uri*))))) (if prefix (server-content) (redirect "/login"))))) (push *dispatch-table* (create-prefix-dispatcher 'secure-prefix-dispatcher "/secure/download/area") 08:56:58 rares: hunchentoot is not THAT sort of a web server 08:57:06 yikes 08:57:09 rares: why would it not be able to read sites-enabled? 08:57:19 the file format 08:57:44 for the files in there 08:58:19 is it really a good idea to replace apache with hunchentoot? 08:58:20 like can it assume suid of the owner of the site? 08:58:45 it's not a question of replacing 08:58:46 rares: hunchentoot is not a drop-in replacement for Apache, neither is lighttpd, or nginx or merb or cherypy. What exactly do you want to do? 08:59:14 i need it to read website configs so i don't have to rewrite them in lisp 08:59:28 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:59:32 modularity 08:59:34 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-13-253.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:59:52 fusss, I just want to control access to underlying content, which could be static, my own (dynamic/static) or served by e.g. wordpress (i.e. dynamic) 08:59:53 rares: be specific, what exactly do you want to do? Apache is a /platform/. Hunchentoot is an application server. 09:00:15 hmm 09:01:02 tic: no problem. do you want to authorize the users by your own authentication system (i.e. are you able to maintain a database table with username, password, and email info) or do you want to use OpenID, Facebook Connect or similar 3rd party identity management? 09:01:47 fusss, both, if possible, plus temporary (time limited) access keys. 09:02:12 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:02:18 how big are static files, > 10MB? 09:02:22 geez, what happened to me, i fall asleep after 12 hrs 09:02:31 i used to be able to pull two all-nighters in a row 09:02:52 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:03:02 eyes close. [d] 09:03:05 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-166-217.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:03:06 fusss, depends -- sometimes it's video (~ >100mb), sometimes it's original images (~ 5mb), but usually top 100k or so. 09:03:08 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-72-136.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:03:22 reprore [n=reprore@116.82.73.92] has joined #lisp 09:04:05 -!- reprore [n=reprore@116.82.73.92] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:04:16 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-166-217.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 09:04:37 ...tops [at] 100k... (or even smaller) 09:05:07 tic: I say stick with lighttpd as it's fast. it's usually a matter of configuration files. You can authorize the users via a hunchentoot signup/login page, generate a token, and tell lighttpd to permit downloads for just users with that token using mod_secdownload 09:05:28 lighttpd is insanely fast and is perfect for large file downloads; it powers youtube 09:05:34 -!- ia_ [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:05:46 hunchentoot can take care of the user authorization/authentication 09:05:58 take a look at secdownload.txt in lighttpd/docs 09:06:33 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:06:38 fusss, but would you advice me doing that for everything, though? Note that I plan on developing one or two actual web apps in Lisp, so it feels backwards to auth w/ HT, pass it to lighthttpd and then route it back to my HT app. 09:06:39 as for hunchentoot, you just need a simple singup login page, two forms, and maybe a third for forgotten passwords; all easily modeled with cslql 09:06:48 ia_ [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 09:06:54 (thanks a lot for the info!) 09:07:05 tic: Lighttpd uses HTTP authentication which is ugly and inflexible 09:07:17 -!- chris_bryant [n=chris_br@cpe-75-84-206-87.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:07:30 right. 09:07:43 / <-- format of lighttpd rewritten URLs 09:08:14 you could use PHP as well for that; there should be plenty of samples out there, but I don't know php 09:09:34 lighty and hunchentoot play so well together, lighty even routes session-enabled requests to their corresponding hunchentoot instances when it's load-balancing. you don't need expensive layer-7 hardware equipment to do that :-) 09:10:16 tic, with all your special needs you're likely to be best off using pure Lisp software... 09:10:59 lpolzer_: my thought exactly, but i would hate to throw a man into web development, specially when he has no intention of plunging in 09:11:15 tic, did you take a look at wui? 09:11:53 tic: I have my hands in facebook connect as we speak, actually :-) 09:12:14 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-166-217.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:12:17 lpolzer_: what db backend/store are you using nowadays? 09:13:27 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-166-217.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 09:13:28 fusss: my projects currently use cl-prevalence and elephant 09:13:52 lpolzer_: what backend for elephant? bdb? 09:14:09 yes 09:14:11 fusss, we are using cl-perec in production with PostgreSQL backend 09:14:31 it's the only viable option IMO; I've also tried the postmodern backend of elephant but wasn't satisfied 09:14:43 levy: cl-perec uses postmodern for backend right? or was it just cl-postgres? 09:15:00 lpolzer_: i have been kicking clsql-mysql for 3 months now 09:15:20 oh, darn, I missed an interesting discussion about whether everything is an object or not. 09:15:23 fusss, cl-postgres 09:15:31 will probably move to my own, NIH dog-food solution ;-( 09:15:41 why? 09:15:48 NIH :( 09:15:50 levy, wui, I have not. 09:16:13 *ilitirit* wishes to draw people's attention to the documented manardb --> http://cl-www.msi.co.jp/projects/manardb/api.html 09:16:22 weirdo: For what it's worth, I consider strings, numbers, etc to be objects in CL. 09:16:24 -!- Guest94412 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 09:16:35 ilitirit: noted! ;-) 09:16:42 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:16:53 ilitirit: thank you for the excellent edidoc format btw, the most readable of all! 09:17:09 fusss, neato! I guess the main auths for me will be OpenID, maybe FB, (for leaving comments), admin user and temp access keys, and then nothing more really. I don't have advanced needs, just not very ordinary. Haven't seen time-limited access keys being used much. 09:17:50 tic, wui is a scalable iolib based 100%-lisp-from-the-socket web server, BSD 09:18:14 -!- jikanter [n=jordan@24-148-12-119.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Success] 09:18:22 levy, neato. should suffice for what I want, I guess. 09:18:31 tic: i have built a RBAC system with full logging, grant options, role inheritance and role borrowing .. but we're not gonna use it. minute, fine grained control over everything, slow as hell, broke mysql and cost me face :-( 09:18:53 levy: url for wui? 09:19:10 fusss, :( 09:19:47 tic: if you're gonna go the hunchetoot route i can spare you a login system, though it more fun writing it yourself :-) 09:20:08 fusss, very helpful of you! it'll be a while until that happens, but I'll keep you in mind! 09:20:24 no worries! back to facebook connect now .. 09:20:46 *lpolzer_* hates facebook connect 09:20:54 fusss, darcs get http://dwim.hu/darcs/hu.dwim.wui a live demo under construction at http://dwim.hu/ 09:20:58 everyone's putting one of those buttons on their site right now 09:21:06 ejs [n=eugen@208-2-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 09:21:17 but I don't have a facebook account, why not use non-discriminated openid? 09:21:33 lpolzer_: i am doing full profile importing. a better simplified UI for facebook for a niche industry group :-) 09:21:50 well that actually makes a bit of sense :) 09:23:44 lpolzer_: btw, we're also a leslieware shop. thanks for all the fish my good friend :-) 09:24:09 huh? :) 09:25:24 yeah, a bunch of your stuff and stuff you contribute to 09:25:42 brb 09:26:55 ah, good to hear 09:27:33 you're welcome :) 09:28:23 -!- Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:30:10 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.208.29] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 09:30:48 vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 09:31:26 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:33:09 -!- younder [n=jthing@84.202.13.251] has left #lisp 09:36:13 fusss_ [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:36:13 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:36:14 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 09:36:32 fwiw, people should never be tempted to use sqlite3 to do user authentication. i tried this, and for apps that see rapid signups, sqlite3 locks the entire database for every read (even in memory database) sometimes up to several seconds. and it should never be used to store hunchentoot sessions; lighty can keep session in ht instance as mentioned above. 09:37:08 lpolzer_: have you played with montezuma + utf8? how well do they mesh? 09:38:08 fusss: I wrote the utf8 support for it, in fact 09:38:19 and it works fine by now 09:39:06 i have it deployed as a generic service for our web apps and it's amazingly good 09:39:10 fusss: sqlite is also prone to deadlocks :( 09:39:32 yeah, montezuma can pack a punch although it's probably not as fast as ferret 09:39:34 I just generalized M-? (M-_). It's now a "how could I lived without it" kind of command, imho. :) 09:39:35 if i have the time, my next project will be to sick montezuma at 2TB worth of arabic text :-) 09:39:59 So you should update your slime checkout. 09:40:00 sounds cool, it needs that kind of testing 09:40:41 tcr: what does it do? 09:40:48 lpolzer_: right now we're close to 600MB worth of user data, deployed only for a week and used internally. no bad. specially now that i maintain a separate index for every user. 09:41:07 michaelw: Wrapper over various who-foo stuff. 09:41:40 michaelw: It's called `slime-edit-uses', it's the counterpart of `slime-edit-definition' (M-.) 09:42:07 i.e. M-. but the "other" direction. (call sites, macroexpand sites etc) 09:43:08 ah, ok 09:43:17 In PCL, it says A method's parameter list must be congruent with its generic function's. 09:43:48 does this mean if a generic function takes 3 arguments, a method cannot take any other number of arguments? 09:44:20 lpolzer_: There's a tarball with the complete archive of comp.lang.lisp. I once wanted to use montezuma to index it. 09:44:21 leo2007: yes, but also look into &allow-other-keys 09:45:01 lpolzer_: I think that would be a nice use case that would urge people to try out montezuma. 09:46:07 fusss: thanks. 09:46:39 you mean a tiny web service that lets one search a montezuma index of c.l.l? 09:46:52 that would be even better. 09:47:11 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:47:29 google groups search is broken since months 09:47:35 I could get rid of all my cll bookmarks :) 09:47:36 sounds good (and not like too much effort) -- will see what I can do :) 09:48:04 where can I get that tarball? 09:49:54 i just can't imagine anybody not wanting to use montezuma: it's a _good_ little thing :-) 09:50:32 hah 09:50:36 and it's the only lib that does indexing 09:50:38 I couldn't instantly figure out how to use it for the indexing and then got distracted 09:50:40 :D 09:51:12 tcr: do you think the mini-tutorial could be amended in some way? 09:52:39 Uh it's several months ago now. But the c.l.l archive would be a nice use case for a tutorial 09:53:56 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-078.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:54:16 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-078.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 09:54:34 fusss pasted "montezuma sample" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87347 09:56:05 you still have to sort the results on your own, but you have a document score along with each match. it's also up to you to develop your own pagerank algorithm that takes query term context, so you can give precedence to documents that have it in the title vs in body, etc. 09:56:26 just developing the SERPs is a lot of work, but montezuma gives you all the tools you need 09:56:44 so there is no incremental svd yet? 09:57:22 it absolutely has no concept of "document" "title", "body" "author", etc. while indexing a document, you create 'fields' for it and add the fields to the document. 09:57:54 the more metadata you keep about the documents (i.e. more fields) the better searches you will have 09:58:24 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-249.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:58:30 also, montezuma has no concept of _context_; it doesn't tell you where in the document the match occured, so you need to search that in a second step to highlight the matches, a la google 09:59:13 fusss_ [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:59:14 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:59:15 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 10:01:24 hi levy, I'm trying to build hu.dwim.home and get The variable COMMON-LISP-USER::*WORKSPACE-DIRECTORY* is unbound. Is that a known problem? 10:01:41 blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:31 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:03:54 kami-, hi, a moment, should check what attila did 10:04:47 levy: from HEAD, not the 'live' release 10:05:15 hmm, I guess that is halfway done through all the repos 10:05:46 nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 10:05:54 that variable should be in hu.dwim.asdf I guess 10:06:49 ~/workspace/hu.dwim.environment/source/environment.lisp 10:06:53 kami-, why don't you rather build the live system? 10:07:15 I can help building the head if you want 10:07:48 but first I should pull and fix the remaining issues 10:08:31 ilitirit: does manardb use arnesi for the continuations? 10:08:41 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 10:09:08 levy: that'd be great. Thank you. 10:09:09 *levy* is just pulling 10:09:56 why does a db need continuations? 10:10:13 ilitirit: erred while invoking # on 10:10:15 # x86 sbcl 1.0.29 linux 32bit with threads 10:10:32 kami-, btw I was working on resurrecting the filter meta gui 10:12:29 -!- Hazelesque [n=hazel@yamada.9noc.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:12:30 levy: great. I will be the first tester :) 10:12:41 regarding indexing... I've started work on a cl interface to sphinx search... 10:13:04 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-146.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:14:01 ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 10:15:17 Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.72.42] has joined #lisp 10:15:54 http://www.cliki.net/cl-sphinx-search 10:17:28 kami-, I have to rebuild everything, including sbcl, takes some time 10:17:29 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-76-22-154-126.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:18:22 thijso: how does it compare to montezuma, feature and speed-wise? 10:18:55 danlei [n=user@pD9E2C8D1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:18 michaelw: I have no idea... wasn't even aware of montezuma when I started (and only really worked on it a weekend ago, so still very much a work in progress) 10:19:59 although I got it so far that it gives me an answer to a query on the test sphinx dataset 10:20:08 thijso: you can still jumps ship :-P 10:20:14 (and even the correct one judging by the result I get through the perl api ;) 10:20:16 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:21:37 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-166-217.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has left #lisp 10:21:38 michaelw: it sounds like montezuma and sphinx don't fully overlap though judging by a quick scan 10:21:59 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-166-217.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 10:26:21 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-149-41.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:27:19 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:27:32 Lucene-like indexing solutions are an amazing technology and fabulous for mostly static data. The caveat is that index re-merging after changes can be expensive, so if you insert stuff often and need reasonably low worst-case times for insertion, you need to use something else, like RDBMS full-text search stuff. 10:27:54 I'm not familiar with sphinx, but from its homepage, it is such a "something else". 10:28:10 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-149-41.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 10:29:00 benny [n=benny@i577A0624.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:29:39 My plan is currently to migrate our webapp to an RDBMS-style solution. We did some tests, and the space overhead for our new solution is quite significant. The speed of insertion, however, makes it worthwile for our situation. 10:29:41 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:30:06 yeah.. sphinx is used by a number of big websites, for example craigslist and the pirate bay.. 10:30:24 Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:30:28 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.204.13] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:30:31 i don't know if it is because of sphinx, but the search at the pirate bay sucks 10:30:39 ;) 10:30:50 I wouldn't know, as I haven't used search there 10:31:03 maybe they'd need word stemming and all sorts of other magic to make the results relevant 10:31:44 so as a reference - yes, it does scale - and yes, you can do full-text-searchy stuff, but i'd take it with a grain of salt 10:31:51 We're in the process of implementing search through sphinx on the website at my work now, so that's mostly where my interest for it came from 10:31:56 at work it's perl though... 10:32:42 levy: do you have to rebuild sbcl because you never build 1.0.31 before, or because you have another version in ~/workspace/sbcl? 10:33:17 kami-, my sbcl was somewhat lagging behind 10:33:40 we do have a darcs rep, but AFAICT you don't need to have that 10:34:06 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B838.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:34:40 levy: I have in fact pulled your darcs repo, because Attila said that there is some base-string related problem in sbcl head 10:35:28 -!- jyujin_ [n=jyujin@d221-90-121.commercial.cgocable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:36:14 levy: I sent a small patch to cl-dwim-devel which add git pull to pullall 10:36:20 s/add/adds 10:40:30 levy_ [n=levy@apn-89-223-194-18.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:43:42 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:50:24 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:52:30 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 10:52:32 joswig [n=joswig@f054054223.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:52:39 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:59:11 ejs1 [n=eugen@208-2-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:33 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-239-230.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:01:17 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177126094.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:02:09 Aszarsha [n=aszarsha@83-154-172-179.rev.libertysurf.net] has joined #lisp 11:02:46 -!- jamesswift [n=jamesswi@203-214-17-77.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 11:11:20 -!- Blaay [i=Blay@89.143.182.236] has quit ["reboot"] 11:15:36 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:19:31 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@208-2-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:21:22 jyujin_ [n=jyujin@d221-90-121.commercial.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 11:22:04 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:25:31 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-166-217.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:25:47 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:28:48 random amusement: 11:29:16 file /path/to/some/kernel/code.h => Lisp/Scheme program text 11:29:35 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:29:37 Hazelesque [n=hazel@pc222.mcs.le.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:30:02 11:30:24 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-166-217.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 11:33:22 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 11:33:23 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-149-41.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:33:34 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-149-41.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 11:34:23 ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 11:45:35 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:47:52 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:48:19 younder [n=jthing@251.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 11:49:11 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 11:52:17 kerimbasol [n=kerim@85.107.165.62] has joined #lisp 11:57:08 -!- Hazelesque [n=hazel@pc222.mcs.le.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:57:26 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:59:01 -!- ejs [n=eugen@208-2-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:14:45 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:14:56 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:16:44 -!- kerimbasol [n=kerim@85.107.165.62] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:16:55 kerimbasol_ [n=kerim@85.107.165.62] has joined #lisp 12:17:04 necroforest [n=jarred@pool-173-79-168-92.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:59 kami-, I did push some patches into hu.dwim.asdf and hu.dwim.environment 12:27:26 I rebuilt my whole system, by freshly checking out all dependencies 12:27:51 so I could get the hu.dwim.home executable, there was only one issue 12:28:40 kami-, in cxml::rod-hash-get I had to comment out the type declaration 12:29:42 *levy_* leaving to get some food 12:30:35 -!- antgreen` [n=user@bas2-toronto06-1176110806.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:31:22 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:39:08 Plasticism [n=anonymou@pac33-2-82-240-37-129.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:40:37 -!- Plasticism [n=anonymou@pac33-2-82-240-37-129.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 12:44:01 Jem1 [n=Jem1@p4FDF7BFA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:01 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 12:46:21 s0ber [i=pie@118-160-169-242.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:02 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:49:49 fusss, hey, you're still using usocket for your hunchentoot changes? 12:52:35 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:54 I thought I had understood readtables, but it seems I don't 12:57:47 how do I get the (clsql:enable-sql-reader-syntax) to work with slime's C-c C-c? 12:58:06 If i'm in a package, i shouldn't have to use package:function to call a function correctly? 12:58:28 I'm trying to call a class accessor from a function and i'm getting an "undefined function" error. 12:59:22 necroforest: are you sure it's actually defined? 12:59:36 i can call it manually from the REPL 12:59:53 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1"] 12:59:54 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp024.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:00:02 do you have an in-package form at the top of your file? 13:00:07 yup. 13:00:33 use apropos with the name of the accessor? 13:01:39 dlowe: apropos will show it already if it's been interned at the repl.. 13:02:00 Adlai: yes, but under sbcl it will also say if it's fbound 13:02:11 dlowe: ah, true, most implementations do that. 13:02:19 describe does that too on some. 13:02:41 milanj [n=milan@79.101.204.13] has joined #lisp 13:02:49 necroforest: can you call it manually from the REPL while specifying the package? 13:03:10 mm_freak [n=milch@2a01:198:2d4:0:dead:affe:dead:affe] has joined #lisp 13:03:18 hi there 13:03:37 dlowe, yes 13:03:52 I can pastebin it quick, the relevant code isn't too bad 13:04:09 necroforest pasted "neural net issue" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87348 13:04:11 i've installed some CL packages now and i'm completely failing to use them 13:04:24 how do you purge .fasl files in Ubuntu? (I'm using sbcl) 13:04:40 find /var/cache/common-lisp-controller/ -iname "*.fas*" | xargs rm -f ## will this do? 13:04:55 first, don't use CLC 13:04:57 mishoo: ~/.fasls ? 13:04:57 the function thats having the issue is "randomize-network", and the error is occuring when doing (nodes l) 13:05:04 mishoo: you can shorten that some by using the -delete flag to find 13:05:20 for example i installed cl-sdl how do i use it? 13:05:20 v0|d: don't have that dir 13:05:44 necroforest: could you paste the actual error message? 13:06:18 mishoo: use asdf-binary-locations ? 13:06:34 in other languages i would import a module or just refer to the exported names what is the CL equivalent of this? 13:06:54 There is no applicable method for the generic function 13:06:54 # 13:06:54 when called with arguments 13:06:54 (NEURON::L). 13:08:43 varjag [n=eugene@80.202.117.103] has joined #lisp 13:10:57 lnostdal: yes, still on usocket 13:11:00 necroforest: why are you initializing your variables with gensym? 13:11:33 necroforest: oh. your "layers" there are symbols 13:11:35 lnostdal: but i haven't touched that code base in over 4 months; is there a bug? 13:12:22 oh, that was an attempt to fix the problem 13:12:24 it didn't work 13:12:46 dlowe: hm, that removed /var/cache/common-lisp-controller directory as well.. 13:13:05 I was originally doing the "make-instance 'layer" in the let() form 13:13:06 I created it and chmod-ed 777, not sure it's the preferable way but it does the job.. 13:15:29 dlowe annotated #87348 "cleaned up and fixed" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87348#1 13:17:15 actually, randomize-network still won't work, since you're just setting a local variable over and over 13:17:27 oh am i? 13:17:29 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229180057.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:17:30 that makes sense now 13:17:30 ilitirit: heh? the current string-case already discriminates on length first. Not so sure about the usefulness of computed gotos though. If I were to use them, I'd go with a perfect hash function. 13:19:42 what would be a better iteration method to use? 13:21:37 necroforest: I'd make weights into a vector instead of a list, and then (loop for i from 0 upto (length (weights z)) do (setf (aref (weights z) i) (random range)) would be fast 13:21:45 HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 13:22:43 ah 13:22:49 they actually are a vector 13:22:56 I guess i'm just iterating over them incorrectly then 13:23:01 oh, well then dolist is unlikely to work :) 13:23:13 well the problem though 13:23:16 it doesn't even get that far 13:23:19 it bombs out at (nodes l) 13:23:45 did you reconstruct a new ff-net? 13:24:23 dlowe: map-into might be even faster (: 13:25:01 pkhuong: certainly clearer 13:26:06 pkhuong: moving the CLOS stuff to a separatee layer and manipulating declared arrays at the lowest layer might help, too 13:27:06 michaelw: sure. Using map-into instead of rewriting that loop is a tiny local change. 13:27:50 -!- vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:29:05 fusss, ok, nope; just curious :) 13:29:07 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:29:16 ilitirit: "...manardb is about seven times faster than AllegroCache 2.1.11 on Allegro 8.1, and about fifteen times faster than AllegroCache on SBCL 1.0.31." You may want to reword that so as not to convey the impression that you've ported ACache to SBCL. 13:30:42 "Manardb running on Allegro 8.1 is seven times faster, and when running on SBCL, ..." 13:33:09 -!- futurano1 [n=futurano@67-207-144-254.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:33:26 futuranon [n=futurano@67.207.144.254] has joined #lisp 13:33:39 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-90-140.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:33:44 so something like (map-into (weights z) #'(lambda (i) (random range)) (weights z)) ? 13:34:08 jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 13:34:19 necroforest: no need for the dummy argument, so (map-into (weights z) (lambda () (random range))). 13:34:31 ah, right 13:34:36 just read that in the CLHS 13:34:38 -!- jrockway_ [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:37:32 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.218.80] has joined #lisp 13:39:08 serichsen: push the readtable on swank::*readtable-alist* 13:39:17 serichsen: Also consider making clsql use my named-readtables 13:39:35 serichsen: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/named-readtables.html 13:41:24 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-049-015.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:53 if I want to prepend an element x to a list l, the correct form is (setf l (cons x l)), right? 13:44:54 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:45:40 necroforest: That will set the variable L to a new list that's one element bigger. 13:45:57 push 13:46:43 necroforest: You cannot modify a list such that the list itself is one element bigger. 13:47:06 because, oddly as it sounds, there is no list object in Lisp 13:47:16 right. 13:47:30 there is a really nasty bug in clsql-mysql; unhandled memory exceptions in now 3 platforms, and 4 different lisps, all with different mysql versions. 13:47:37 I thought what I had would change memory from l -> a -> b -> c -> () to l-> x -> a -> b -> c -> () 13:48:47 necroforest: It would not change memory. It would make L point to something else 13:49:41 necroforest: Basically, what you're trying is fine; except for that there's a macro called PUSH which will do it for you. 13:49:47 ah, ok 13:50:12 necroforest: But you have to keep this fine distinction in mind because it's the explanation why you cannot push something to a list from within a function, and have the caller notify the change 13:50:27 tcr: actually, you can get pretty close 13:50:28 Do you see that? 13:50:54 Adlai: Let's not muddle the waters for newcomers. Basics first. 13:51:08 even if you're using an object? 13:51:15 in my case, the "l" is a slot in an object 13:51:21 That will work, yes. 13:51:48 (setf (cdr list) (cons (car list) (cdr list)) (car list) new-item) I think that does it :D 13:51:59 -!- thunk [n=user@96-28-112-51.dhcp.insightbb.com] has left #lisp 13:52:12 necroforest: In this case you're modifying an object. (But not the actual list!) 13:52:14 necroforest: as long as you pass the reference, rather than the list itself 13:52:32 so (push element (slot-accessor object)) would mutably update the slot on the object 13:53:01 Exactly 13:53:13 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:53:15 right. The problem arises when you have the list as the value of a variable, because you can't pass that as a reference, only as a value. 13:53:48 necroforest: To be very precise: It would make the slot point to a new cons cell whose cdr points to the head of the LIST as stored before in the slot 13:54:01 tcr, right, that's what i wanted 13:55:00 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 13:55:15 but note that the list which the slot originally contained is unchanged 13:55:22 there's just a new cons cell which points to the head of that list 13:55:52 right 13:56:30 because there's no lists in lisp, just cons that are used as a linked list structure, correct? 13:56:38 right. 13:57:01 (1 2 3) is actually (1 . (2 . (3 . ()))) 13:57:06 right 13:57:28 -!- mm_freak [n=milch@2a01:198:2d4:0:dead:affe:dead:affe] has left #lisp 13:57:58 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-189-48.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 13:58:21 and if I wanted to append to a list in an object slot, (setf (accessor object) (append (accessor object) '(element))) would work 13:59:08 correct. You could also use setf wrappers such as "appendf" 13:59:21 ah 13:59:22 (appendf isn't in the spec but is a not-too-uncommon util) 13:59:38 i'd assume that would basically be a macro for what I wrote? 13:59:47 i think you could just do (push item (accessor object)) if you didn't mind the new item will be at the beginning of the list 13:59:54 necroforest: Yes, but it makes sure to evaluate OBJECT only once 14:00:06 this is also O(1) instead of O(n) when appending 14:00:18 Dodek, i'm specifically talking about appending 14:00:21 If you just want to collect some items, you can use the push/nreverse idiom 14:00:31 or some sort of with-collectors macro 14:00:33 (define-modify-macro appendf (&rest lists) append) 14:00:37 necroforest: oh, i didn't really follow the discussion. 14:01:57 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:03:04 thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@114.73.23.227] has joined #lisp 14:04:07 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-250.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:47 Morning. 14:05:31 tcr: just reading through your named-readtables documentation, I saw a typo 14:06:12 in section 1 of Important API Idiosyncrasies: "If, for example to DULY signify the importance ..." 14:06:58 thanks 14:08:24 the library looks very interesting, though. Now I want to find some way to use it :) 14:09:55 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:03 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-17.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:48 redline6561: herep 14:12:01 gigamonkey: what's herep? 14:12:10 -!- noptys [n=noptys@and.noemailaddress.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:12:14 Lisp for, "Are you here?" 14:12:16 redline6561: like evenp, endp, etc 14:12:29 gigamonkey: my book was shipped today! 14:12:30 Anyway, thanks for the kind Amazon review. 14:12:32 I thought it might be. Yeah, I appear to be here this time. Morning everyone. 14:12:34 or rather, your book :) 14:12:44 gigamonkey: Very welcome. Thanks for writing it. It was a very enjoyable read. :D 14:12:45 Adlai: it's *our* book. ;-) 14:13:21 gigamonkey: are you gonna write a haskell book? 14:13:35 v0|d: Why do you ask? 14:13:40 gigamonkey: now that I'm back from ECLM, I can tackle Lispbox again... 14:13:49 v0|d: I actually have considered it. 14:13:52 gigamonkey: you are good at it. 14:14:04 gigamonkey: i mean writing. 14:14:06 Adlai: Make Lispbox on top of LibCL 14:14:09 gigamonkey: i cant write i must admin. 14:14:15 s/admin/admit. 14:14:18 minion: LibCL? 14:14:18 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``LibCL''. 14:14:21 Adlai: Really? I think it would be awesome if lispbox would get updated. It would make it easier to evangelize to a few friends. 14:14:29 Adlai: see planet.lisp 14:14:30 v0|d: that's noticeable 14:14:33 greyhame [n=jao@80.31.221.191] has joined #lisp 14:14:56 stassats: you cant either. 14:14:57 Especially since the O'Reilly editor of Real World Haskell is now behind Lisp Outside the Box which he told me is essentially taking PCL head on, I figured I might as well write a book to take on RWH. ;-) 14:15:02 stassats: :) 14:15:09 redline6561: I tried installing Lispbox for a friend of mine a while back and ended up installing Emacs, Slime, and CCL separately because Lispbox has a very outdated Emacs version 14:15:13 gigamonkey: I expect I'd read it. 14:15:22 v0|d: don't eat apostrophes 14:15:34 *redline6561* currently needs all the explanation of monads he can get. 14:15:54 stassats: need a new laptop, keyboard is getting verryyy old. 14:16:01 stassats: i will btw. 14:16:05 redline6561: oh, a monad is just a monoid in the category of endofunctors. 14:16:14 redline6561: "a monad is a monoid in the category of endofunctors, what's the problem?" 14:16:26 my favorite explanation 14:16:28 hm 14:16:38 Adlai: Exactly. I mean, on Linux you can generally get whatever you need from repositories and get up and going in no time. Giving a setup how-to for your windows and mac friends. That doesnt' seem to fly as much. 14:16:52 redline6561: Install them some linux. 14:17:01 it is very unfortunate that #lisp is trying to make fun of abstract algebra. 14:17:10 Adlai: A monoid? Oh! I thought it was a hylomorphism ON the category of endofunctors. Man, the ways people steer me wrong. 14:17:11 *gigamonkey* is ashamed of how out of date Lispbox is. 14:17:13 v0|d: not of abstract algebra, but of Haskell :P 14:17:24 v0|d: Nothing wrong with making fun of stuff (: 14:17:35 #haskell makes fun of lisp, no? ;) 14:17:36 they just seem to like smart-sounding words. 14:17:55 Dodek: oh no, I'm sure they mean a lot to some people... I just have no clue what they mean 14:17:57 ok, #pretty-much-any-channel makes fun of lisp ;) 14:18:04 schme: You know, I couldn't agree more. Sadly, not everyone wants to leave their precious platform of choice for a *nix. It's a sad, sad world. ;) 14:18:09 Yeah, but not in an affectionate way. 14:18:15 then again, I'm sure that many people have no clue what "Forward-porting commits onto an upstream head" means, so... 14:18:18 We still have a Lord of the Flies reputation out there. 14:18:29 schme: i'm sitting on a channel where there is a bot which, when prompted, gives you funny quote about lisp 14:18:39 gigamonkey: what do you mean by Lord of the Flies? 14:18:42 gigamonkey: That is a bit sad, ya. For some odd reason scheme seems to be not so "evil". 14:18:50 Dodek: ehehe. what quote? 14:18:51 they're impossible to translate, unfortunately. 14:18:51 gigamonkey: #lisp should be liberalized to get rid of that. 14:18:54 d'oh. 14:18:58 schme: quotes, i mean. 14:19:01 gigamonkey: really enjoying coders at work, thx 14:19:14 gigamonkey: you are doing pretty well but far from enough. 14:19:23 Adlai: Lord of the Flies is a famous novel about a bunch of school boys who end up on an island with no adults and run, predictable, amok. 14:19:40 this is one computer book i'm going to keep on the shelves instead of giving it away 14:19:44 gigamonkey: I know the book, but how does CL have that reputation? 14:19:47 manuel_: Cool. Feel free to write an Amazon review when you're done. 14:19:58 redline6561: People have the silliest arguments for sticking with windows anyway.. "but it works just sweet for waht I do" "I need some app or other" .. BAH! they don't need anything but bash and maybe awk. 14:20:01 Adlai: #lisp does. 14:20:03 gigamonkey: sure will 14:20:04 Or did. 14:20:06 if anything, wouldn't it be associated with crumbling old fogies from 1959? 14:20:31 schme: Indeed! Especially if they're programmers. *sigh* 14:21:07 Adlai: there was some rant, that 50-year olds from #lisp are ruining Lisp 14:21:18 schme: I beg to differ, some people *NEED* videogames. 14:21:52 *Adlai* wonders what the average age of lispers and #lispers is 14:22:02 are maybe? hmm. 14:22:15 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit ["leaving"] 14:22:22 Adlai: No consoles for you? Gotta have them PC strategy games or shooters? 14:22:30 Adlai: Of course they do. I'd like to play some of those windows video games meself :) 14:22:42 I have now found goblin hack though, so I am satisfied. 14:22:48 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 14:22:55 Adlai: "... what the respective average ages of lispers and #lispers are." ;) 14:24:00 redline6561: I haven't really played videogames since I switched to Archlinux, but my friend who helped me switch to Linux has a separate computer (always stocked with bleeding-edge hardware) running Windows just for videogames 14:24:06 marioxcc [n=user@200.52.211.171] has joined #lisp 14:24:20 serichsen: hmm I guess that's correct, yes. 14:24:21 Adlai: install some goblin hack ASAP! 14:24:22 tcr: thanks, looking into that. What is the structure of *readtable-alist*, i.e., what is supposed to be the car of each element? 14:24:23 minion: thwap me 14:24:24 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 14:24:55 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 14:25:11 minion: thwap at Adlai 14:25:11 Adlai: have a look at thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 14:25:39 serichsen: "An alist mapping package names to readtables." 14:25:44 *Adlai* thinks that minion should understand as many languages as C3P0 14:25:59 tcr: doh. thanks :) 14:26:49 My favourite lisp predicate is 'wasp'. 14:27:32 Zhivago: poop: tests whether something is a sample of human excrement 14:28:01 Adlai: no, that's poopp 14:28:34 hmm 14:28:39 Ah, never mind. I guess they're both right. 14:28:59 I guess my definition is wrong, too, because people often refer to guano as "poo", too. 14:29:00 make-warp 14:29:08 NIL 14:29:11 make-lovep 14:29:33 Then you can make-weft. 14:29:43 ignas_ [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 14:29:44 haha nobody wants to say T to make-lovep. 14:29:49 what does that say about us lispers!? 14:29:55 Realists 14:30:04 Not into golden showers, I guess. 14:30:06 hmmm 14:30:12 make-nethackp 14:30:15 T 14:30:21 ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-66-1.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 14:30:22 Adlai: i'd say Unbound variable: MAKE-LOVEP 14:30:32 stassats: true 14:30:46 also, (fboundp make-lovep) => nil 14:31:07 -!- wasabi______ [n=wasabi@nttkyo393252.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Tiarra 0.1+svn-34672M: SIGTERM received; exit"] 14:31:12 it should be (make-love-p) 14:31:17 according to the hyperspec rules 14:31:25 Adlai: no, => Unbound variable: MAKE-LOVEP again 14:31:51 *Adlai* has been writing too much shell and not enough CL today 14:32:16 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.52.211.171] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:32:35 (define-symbol-macro make-lovep (make-lovep)) 14:32:49 if you don't want to accord to the rules 14:33:16 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:33:56 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.72.42] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:34:35 stassats: shouldn't it be make-love-p? 14:34:57 (without the question mark of course, this isn't Ruby) 14:35:38 mm_freak [n=milch@2a01:198:2d4:0:dead:affe:dead:affe] has joined #lisp 14:36:05 tcr: why LibCL and not one of the other multitudes of CL library systems? 14:36:22 (I'm not hostile to the idea, just curious) 14:36:44 tcr: LibCL is the only projet I know of that seems to be focused on simply gathering up existing libraries. 14:36:45 hello again is there some simpler alternative to ASDF? like something useful, when i just want to write a little command line utility, that uses some package ("system") 14:36:50 I second tcr's notion. 14:37:02 Adlai: It aims to do a distributor's job 14:37:06 Xof: have you seen http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/circos/? this makes awesomely pretty graphs (if you ever intend to update your "...oh my!" paper, I guess this would be a very interesting visualization strategy) 14:37:14 gigamonkey: ok, I guess that trumps any opinion (more correctly, lack thereof) that I have 14:37:38 *Adlai* has chosen to not mess with "The CLAN Problem" yet 14:37:44 Adlai: well, feel free to look around more, I haven't researched it in any great depth. 14:38:01 But I've long thought if I spent more time on Lispbox that I would start collecting libraries to include in it. 14:38:13 marioxcc [n=user@200.52.211.171] has joined #lisp 14:38:39 well, the problem with that is that it would make Lispbox itself something that had to be updated 14:38:40 I'm less concerned with the CLAN problem (i.e. how do you make it easy to download and install new libraries) than with the "standard library" problem. 14:38:45 jikanter [n=jordan@24.148.12.119] has joined #lisp 14:39:11 ideally, you should be able to update Emacs, SLIME, and the libraries without messing too much with Lispbox itself 14:39:19 Even before Perl had CPAN it had a pretty good collection of libraries that came the standard Perl distribution. 14:39:31 "Lispbox itself" being the glue scripts and examples 14:39:31 Adlai: yes, you should. 14:40:39 do you really think there's a "standard library" problem? I think it's more a problem of people not knowing how or where to get such libraries. 14:41:05 By "standard library" I mean, the set of libraries that are just there. 14:41:32 -!- greyhame [n=jao@80.31.221.191] has quit ["leaving"] 14:41:33 So, if you install Lispbox, you get a currently very small set of libraries. 14:41:38 That set should be bigger. 14:42:32 greyhame [n=jao@80.31.221.191] has joined #lisp 14:42:38 I see what you mean, I thought you were talking about "standard libraries" in the sense of canonical and relatively bug-free libraries for threading, web-4.0-ing, etc 14:42:50 And if LibCL does a good job, then Lispbox can just be Emacs+SLIME+LibCL+a Lisp of your choice 14:42:56 lisp is an elegant language for some tasks, but getting productive with it is quite hard 14:43:12 not true. 14:43:20 mm_freak: hmmm, getting productive with any new language is quite hard. 14:43:47 gigamonkey: no, i'm assuming that enough lisp knowledge is already there i'm referring to the environmental issues 14:43:48 does anyone know how to get mcclim to use other backends than clx? 14:44:02 mm_freak: what are you trying to do? 14:44:14 mm_freak: then I don't know quite what you're talking about. 14:44:20 Adlai: i'm trying to use SDL in a lisp program 14:44:32 after hours of reading on the internet i figured that i need to set up ASDF 14:44:53 ljames: just load gtkairo 14:44:57 yes, ASDF is the standard right now, unfortunately. 14:45:00 minion: clbuild for mm_freak 14:45:01 mm_freak: please look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 14:45:04 mm_freak: so those hours don't count if you're assuming "enough Lisp knowledge". 14:45:30 once you set up ASDF and clbuild, you should be set. 14:45:33 That's like saying C is hard to get productive with because you spent hours before you figured out you needed ake installed. 14:45:38 er, make. 14:46:25 gigamonkey: tutorials do a good job at introducing the language, but seem to fail, when it comes to the stuff surrounding it, especially when you're trying to start quickly 14:46:38 Which is not to discount the pain of getting up to speed. 14:46:41 Adlai: thanks, i'll have a look at that 14:47:03 gigamonkey: i can compile and run a program, which depends on a library without using make 14:47:09 in C, that is 14:47:24 quickly you'll go nowhere 14:47:24 mm_freak: the problem with most CL tutorials is that they're too short to introduce things which you should know before you start using Lisp 14:47:32 mm_freak: As you can in Lisp if you really want to. LOAD and COMPILE-FILE are all you really need. 14:48:53 gigamonkey: where can i read more on that? 14:48:59 clhs load 14:48:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_load.htm 14:49:15 clhs compile-file 14:49:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp_fi.htm 14:49:35 sure, but what do i load where? 14:49:47 http://l!sp.org/pcl/load 14:49:54 Bah, wrong url. 14:49:59 s/!/1/ 14:50:01 gigamonkey: interesting :) 14:50:19 http://l1sp.org/pcl/load 14:50:31 Hmmm, that's not the best URL. 14:51:00 Does any one do something like (setf (stream-external-format stream) new-format) in the middle of reading a stream? 14:51:05 Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:13 (load "~/src/sheeple/sheeple.asd") => #P"/home/adlai/src/sheeple/sheeple.asd" 14:51:19 rtoym: yes 14:51:32 mm_freak: you just pass it a string (or pathname) 14:51:46 fe[nl]ix: You do? Can I ask why you need to do that? 14:51:46 I talk about LOAD and COMPILE-FILE in Chapter 2 of PCL: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/lather-rinse-repeat-a-tour-of-the-repl.html 14:52:06 Adlai: cl-sdl installed several files 14:52:20 which one do i load? 14:52:25 mm_freak: all of them. 14:52:26 mm_freak: I'm guessing one of them is an ASDF system, right? 14:52:31 rtoym: read HTTP headers using ASCII/CRLF then the body using UTF8/LF 14:52:31 yes 14:52:32 That's wyh people invented things like ASDF. 14:52:56 You *can* just use compile-file and load, but it's a pain. 14:53:05 at the shell: cd /path/to/asdf/registry && ln -s /path/to/cl-sdl/cl-sdl.asd .' 14:53:11 eh, without the ' 14:53:34 Adlai: now lisp coding is showing 14:53:39 ok, xcvb .376 now has an asdf backend. 14:54:02 what's next on top of the usability wishlist? 14:54:03 gigamonkey: it feels like ASDF gets in the way of quickly writing a small utility 14:54:19 it helps for larger projects, though 14:54:29 fe[nl]ix: Oh. I guess that makes sense. Dang. I guess I have to implement that then. 14:54:45 stassats: hehe, that's actually from example shell scripts... I try to delimit shell commands like this: `cd /foo/bar && ./baz --quux' 14:55:02 mm_freak: I don't find it iso. 14:55:02 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@90.184.205.169] has joined #lisp 14:55:03 so. 14:55:09 Fare: xcvb-install that works :) 14:55:12 Man, I'm having trouble typing this morning. 14:55:25 mm_freak: Here's my progression of starting a new Lisp utility. 14:55:37 1. Write foo.lisp, probably with an (in-package :cl-user) 14:55:49 mm_freak: you don't need ASDF for really small things, though 14:56:08 1a. Wise up and change the (in-package :cl-user) to an inline (defpackage :com.gigamonkeys.foo) (in-package :com.gigamonkeys.foo) 14:56:22 2. Move the defpackage to a packages.lisp file in the same directory. 14:56:48 3. Write com.gigamonkeys.foo.asd and add it to my ASDF registry. 14:56:59 you can stick lots of code in a single file, and if you have more than one file, you can use a few load statements, just as you'd use #include in C 14:57:09 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 14:57:16 When I'm pretty sure I'm going to keep the code, I might do all three of those steps at once. 14:57:38 rtoym: what is there to implement ? if the buffering is done correctly, switching the external-format is just a 2-line function 14:57:52 I do have a scheme for registering .asd files that doesn't require messing around with symlinks. 14:58:55 "registering" means putting into ASDF's search path? 14:59:05 mm_freak: ASDF is comfortable, once you get it to work right, but if your code is just a small utility/toy program that doesn't depend on other asdf systems, then you probably don't need to use it. 14:59:11 fe[nl]ix: It works fine right now, but I was working on making external formats faster. I have something that makes utf8 30-40% faster. I do this by converting all read octets into characters all at once instead of one at a time. But the then changing fmt midstream is messed up. 14:59:26 ljames: that's the problem: it does depend on other systems 15:00:13 mm_freak: you can put (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :my-awesome-dependancy) at the top of your quick hax 15:00:30 mm_freak: the short answer to your problems is, spend the 15-30 minutes it'll take to learn how ASDF works and then you'll be fine. 15:00:30 -!- pawel [n=pawel@89.108.217.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:00:31 hmm, I think Xach had an excellent tutorial on getting started with ASDF... let me see if I can find it 15:00:35 mm_freak: http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 15:00:40 ^ 15:00:44 :) 15:00:52 minion: asdf 15:00:54 asdf: asdf is Another System Definition Facility. http://www.cliki.net/asdf 15:01:09 Hmmm. Maybe should add Xach's thing. 15:01:19 Adlai, xcvb-install is not for tomorrow. I don't think that's for me to write, either 15:01:49 I'm trying to replace ASDF. Whoever writes asdf-install will want to write xcvb-install once xcvb is considered a replacement for ASDF. 15:01:53 Fare: is xcvb still mainly intended for very large systems? 15:02:11 mm_freak, for a quick utility w/o dependencies, try cl-launch 15:02:14 Adlai: actually that's a good idea 15:02:19 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:02:31 Adlai, yes and no -- it's intended for all systems. Though it will hopefully shine on large systems. 15:02:55 Actually, my current attack plan is to resurrect POIU for large systems as a backend to XCVB. 15:03:04 minion: POIU? 15:03:04 POIU: poiu is an asdf variant that compiles in parallel. http://www.cliki.net/POIU 15:03:06 Fare: for a quick utility without dependencies i've got all i need =) 15:03:09 rtoym: keeping all data as octets and only converting to characters when needed make is easy to implement good bivalent streams and to change EF on-the-fly 15:03:38 rtoym: and as a bonus, you get a simpler implementation: less code to write and debug 15:03:41 mm_freak: I don't think you want to use XCVB yet (no offense to Fare) because most code which you'd want to use is still rooted in ASDF land. 15:03:45 fe[nl]ix: Yes, that's how it's done now. 15:03:47 s/rooted/mired/ 15:04:20 Adlai, of course. Maybe one of my next steps should be to send upstream patches, and see the reaction... 15:04:47 fe[nl]ix: I was wondering how much faster we could make it, using an idea from Carl about converting everything at once. Less function-call overhead. 15:05:03 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has left #lisp 15:05:13 Fare: my reaction would probably be "Damnit, I want to learn how to write XCVB definitions myself, don't do it for me!" 15:05:31 Adlai, no one is FORCING you to use the conversion tool :) 15:06:04 Fare: Damnit, I want to learn how to write XCVB definitions myself, don't do it for me! 15:06:11 *rtoym* should probably compare how fast other Lisps are at reading utf8 files. 15:06:51 fe[nl]ix, btw, thanks for your work on iolib 15:07:00 fe[nl]ix, what's the status of iolib's run-program ? 15:07:10 rtoym: converting everything at once is not much faster 15:07:29 what does "everything at once" mean here? 15:07:44 Fare: I haven't even started to write it 15:07:45 fe[nl]ix: It is in cmucl. 30-40% on my benchmark. 15:07:51 Adlai: it doesn't work 15:08:00 component "sdl" not found 15:08:36 ok, found the error 15:08:48 SBCL doesn't load the .sbclrc, when i pass --script 15:08:55 Fare: It means converting a set of octets to a string at once instead of converting the octets to characters one at a time. 15:10:11 ok. 15:10:35 rtoym: how is the former faster? 15:10:53 I guess maybe it could be if you put the octets in an array and then coerced it to a string? maybe? 15:11:15 Adlai, eschewing function calls, cache misses, etc. 15:11:17 rtoym: I think I may have misunderstood you. converting more characters in the same call is always a win, as long as you don't buffer the characters 15:11:55 fe[nl]ix, "buffer the characters"? 15:12:38 Fare: missing context -- rtoym asked a while back if people change the encoding of a stream after they've opened it. 15:13:15 unhappily they sometimes do 15:13:29 e.g. for XML or HTML streams where the encoding is inside the stream 15:13:41 fe[nl]ix: http://comonad.com/reader/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/IntroductionToMonoids.pdf 15:13:46 fe[nl]ix: maybe helpful. 15:13:55 you start in ASCII, latin1 or UTF8B, and switch if/when the page specifies something 15:14:11 right, which is why rtoym can't just convert data as it enters the stream 15:14:21 v0|d, you were at that presentation? 15:14:35 Fare: i wish. 15:14:37 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 15:14:57 actually, buffering might still be a win if memory is cheap 15:15:20 fe[nl]ix: Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. To make it go faster, I convert all available octets (in some other array) and save the result in a string. Then future reads pull from the string. When a refill is needed, more octets are read and converted to a string again. 15:15:30 ejs [n=eugen@68-22-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:34 Fare: if you don't want bivalent streams and have :element-type 'character, then it would make sense to convert octets immediately after being read(2) 15:15:37 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-67.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:16:42 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-166-217.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:16:44 fe[nl]ix, while the stuff is still in the cache? 15:16:47 rtoym: with a little care in implementing it, you can still keep around only octets and still be almost as fast as in your case 15:16:49 sure. 15:17:18 Is anyone around that could look at an error I'm getting using class slot accessors? 15:17:28 I've been trying to figure this out all morning 15:17:34 necroforest: where is it 15:17:36 rtoym: I'm certain of that because I've done it 15:17:40 necroforest: paste it somewhere. 15:17:41 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-166-217.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 15:17:42 necroforest pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87354 15:17:46 fe[nl]ix, what did you think of ACL's streams? 15:17:53 v0|d, just did :) 15:17:58 divisionbell [n=kenan@78.172.78.92] has joined #lisp 15:18:01 fe[nl]ix: Really? That's cool. Is it available somewhere? 15:18:08 The error is in the (randomize-network) function near the bottom, i put the error in the comments 15:18:23 gee, i hate this chrome thing, always swaps. 15:18:32 v0|d: google chrome? 15:18:36 right. 15:18:57 how much memory does "always swaps" mean? 15:19:20 rtoym: it's in iolib 15:19:53 fe[nl]ix: Thanks. I'll take a look. 15:19:56 Adlai: my laptop is too old, that's the reason i think. 15:20:03 Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.72.42] has joined #lisp 15:20:06 necroforest: more stack frames would help 15:20:21 necroforest: look at ADD-LAYER. Also, your lambda has one too many argument in the MAP-INTO form. 15:20:25 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:28 oh wait, the error is in randomize-network 15:20:34 Fare: I hope to find time to start working again on zstreams, which in my opinion are a cleaner version of Franz's simple-streams 15:20:42 Fare: but overall, they're nice 15:20:50 shouldn't the lambda take one argument? 15:21:30 ((SB-PCL::FAST-METHOD NO-APPLICABLE-METHOD (T)) 15:21:30 # 15:21:30 # 15:21:30 #)[:EXTERNAL] 15:21:44 this is the only other information that SBCL gave me 15:21:56 what'z map-into? 15:22:03 clhs map-in 15:22:04 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for map-in. 15:22:07 clhs map-into 15:22:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_map_in.htm 15:22:08 i sense it's an evil imperative version of map 15:22:17 necroforest: *read* the error message. The argument to NODES is a literal symbol, NEURON::L. 15:22:19 worse, it's destructive. 15:22:26 omg 15:22:29 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 15:22:29 necroforest: dont use map-into 15:22:37 v0|d: wtf not? 15:22:48 fe[nl]ix: A hint on where in iolib? 15:22:54 pkhuong, do you know why? 15:23:05 pkhuong: come on. dont poision newbies 15:23:12 necroforest: sure, I already told you to look at ADD-LAYER. 15:23:14 ops, s/dont/don't/g 15:23:21 im looking! 15:23:40 i'm obviously missing something 15:23:42 rtoym: also, with the scheme you proposed, you'd still have to keep an octet buffer around because with multibyte encodings, there's the possibility that read(2) will return an incomplete sequence, i.e., the last two octets will be the first two in a 3-octet UTF8 sequence 15:23:43 v0|d: destructive functions aren't evil and scary, they just have the potential to mess up your program -- in which case you ,rest 15:24:00 Adlai: i cant track bugs in 30k lines, can i? 15:24:02 initializing with map-into is an idiom 15:24:14 Adlai: no way. 15:24:17 v0|d: exactly, which is why you do incremental testing 15:24:24 necroforest: What do you think (append (layers n) '(l)) does? 15:24:32 rtoym: src/streams/gray/gray-stream-methods.lisp 15:24:42 Adlai: no tests can make you good. 15:24:53 fe[nl]ix, what are you working on these days? 15:24:59 oh good, more talk about streams 15:25:03 I didn't mean extreme-programming-type-testing 15:25:09 '(l) => (L) 15:25:12 fe[nl]ix: Yes, the octet buffer stays around. The incomplete character is handle properly right now. 15:25:19 fe[nl]ix: thanks! 15:25:19 Adlai: hehe 15:25:28 (let ((l 'some-value)) (list l)) => (SOME-VALUE) 15:25:38 necroforest: I think you want the latter. 15:26:01 anybody use GAP? 15:26:21 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-166-217.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:26:23 Fare: these days I'm reading lots of books 15:26:32 The graph accessibility problem? 15:26:35 what books? 15:26:50 pkhuong: no, the algebra program. 15:27:07 pkhuong: i've discovered it lately and it seems it has a huge codebase. 15:27:11 hrm 15:27:22 pkhuong: http://www.gap-system.org/ 15:28:20 Fare: A treatise of human nature 15:29:02 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-247-141.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:32 fe[nl]ix: I have some book recommendations 15:29:37 Adlai, pkhuong yeah, it was definatly the (add-layer) method. thanks... i was in here earlier and everyone told me that was the correct way to append to a list mutably. 15:29:51 Adlai: go ahead 15:30:20 http://www.ffconsultancy.com/products/ocaml_for_scientists/ 15:30:27 hehe 15:30:41 -!- Jem1 [n=Jem1@p4FDF7BFA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:30:45 necroforest: the problem wasn't with the way you appended, but with what you were appending with. 15:30:57 #lisp is getting a cool place. 15:32:31 fe[nl]ix, in different genres, have you tried "The Blank Slate" by Pinker or "Human Action" by Mises? 15:32:59 v0|d: we need more flamewars, that'll help. 15:33:01 minion: chant 15:33:02 MORE FLAMEWARS 15:33:27 How to decide when to use clos? 15:34:37 leo2007, when you need it 15:34:43 leo2007: when you need type declerations. 15:34:45 leo2007: you don't... you decide to not use CLOS when it's a bottleneck 15:34:56 hmm, three very different opinions there :) 15:35:20 leo: clos as opposed to what? 15:35:31 functional programming for example 15:35:57 they do very different things 15:36:02 why do they contradict? 15:36:35 leo2007: in haskell data and type classes are seperate. 15:36:42 you can have FP and clos at the same time 15:36:45 you can have side-effect-free OO, if that's your definition of functional 15:36:49 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-113-8.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:37:03 leo2007: in cl, it's only a class. so you have data and morphisms at the same time. 15:37:09 if your slots are read-only, you can have pure FP and clos, too 15:37:16 ok 15:37:18 lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-113-8.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:37:28 and cl has no parametric poly. 15:37:40 yeah, that sucks 15:37:54 lisp is much like writing in denotational semantics. 15:37:55 I read through the two chapters in PCL on clos and it seems it is not as complicated as some documents suggest. 15:38:05 v0|d: what do you mean by parametric poly[morphism]? 15:38:12 Adlai: oh. 15:38:12 v0|d, except for the lack of tail-calls 15:38:24 Fare: cps functor solved that problem for me. 15:38:30 Fare: but it's very inefficient. 15:38:41 leo2007: that's because PCL doesn't go into the MOP. 15:38:43 not the compiling itself but the trampoline. 15:38:54 Adlai, type-parameters in ML or Haskell, generic stuff in Java... 15:39:08 Adlai: Ocaml for scientists is way over-priced 15:39:08 see the unit system in PLT, for a Lisp variant 15:39:10 Adlai: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_polymorphism 15:39:16 Adlai: is it necessary to go into MOP? 15:39:29 v0|d, maybe what you want is Scheme. 15:39:29 leo2007: not when you're learning CLOS :) 15:39:34 from a practical point of view 15:39:43 Fare: i'm using cl as if it is scheme. 15:39:52 then why not just use Scheme? 15:40:18 Fare: because i've already written the tools to make myself comfortable. 15:40:27 especially if you're going to use a CPS functor -- Scheme is a more efficient Scheme than CL 15:40:28 ok 15:40:40 Fare: right. 15:40:53 Fare: I've had a good experience with external-program if iolib isn't up to your needs right now. 15:41:10 Can you MAP with arrays? 15:41:19 necroforest: no but you can reduce 15:41:25 necroforest: reduce runs over most sequences. 15:41:28 necroforest: only vectors. Same for reduce. 15:41:52 v0|d: most sequences? 15:41:53 v0|d: what do you think MAP does? Also "most" sequences? 15:41:58 necroforest: vector = one-dimensional array 15:42:20 pkhuong: map fails to operate on a string. 15:42:28 hm 15:42:30 not true. 15:42:34 right. 15:42:36 v0|d: it's not map that failed ;) 15:42:45 (map 'list 'char-code "abc") => (97 98 99) 15:43:19 (map 'string 'code-char #(97 98 99)) => "abc" 15:43:28 i was talking about mapcar, never use map since i do type analysis anywhere else. 15:43:46 redline6561, what's external-program? Is it more than a thin layer around each implementation's run-program? 15:44:03 actually i was thought that at first cons is a universal operator opertting on sequences, like lists, strings etc. 15:44:17 then i discovered it's called a monooid. 15:44:25 hej adeht. Do you have some time? 15:44:30 Fare: No, I think it's pretty much just a thin layer/compatability layer. Sorry if I misunderstood your needs. 15:44:39 tcr: sure 15:45:03 might or might not be enough. Thanks for the tip, anyway 15:45:06 Adlai: is the facility class + generic functions enough for most applications? 15:45:20 Fare: Sure. http://common-lisp.net/project/external-program/ 15:45:22 I thought MOP is used when designing a new oo model? 15:45:24 Off to lunch... 15:45:31 *Fare* currently does all his XCVB testing with SBCL, and only ever tried it but with clisp and ccl. 15:45:32 pawel [n=pawel@188.33.107.207] has joined #lisp 15:45:34 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:45:57 leo2007: yes, the built-in metaclasses (standard-class, standard-slot, etc) are fine for all basic OO needs 15:46:47 when you do need to do something that requires a different type of OO, there are usually libraries that mess with the MOP for you 15:47:23 for example, you can be fairly sure that you'll never have to (defclass persistent-class (standard-class) ...), because there are already libraries that do that for you (manardb, allegrocache, etc) 15:47:24 Adlai: i've one called class+ 15:47:41 ejs1 [n=eugen@68-22-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:50 http://labs.core.gen.tr/repos/core-server/src/class+/class+.lisp 15:47:53 v0|d: not "CLASS++"? I'd have thought that a trendier name... 15:47:59 Adlai: hehe 15:48:00 or even better: CLASS# 15:48:22 Adlai: we've made an agreement with attila. he took all *'s and i took all +'s. 15:48:37 Adlai: so we name everthing as class* and class+, lol. 15:49:03 anyway, introspection api is very helping especially in the compile-time. 15:49:04 who is "we"? 15:49:44 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:49:48 i can specify how a constructor would be defined by implementing class+.ctor over the metaclass. 15:50:09 but i'm sure it's no big deal. everybody can roll his own. 15:50:47 is it specific to SBCL? why don't you use c2mop? 15:51:29 Adlai: i've used several mop methods, but i tried it to be portalb.e 15:51:31 Adlai: do you mean there's library that would save me defclass altogether? 15:52:19 leo2007: look closely -- that abridged example was a defclass defining a MOP metaclass 15:52:28 ln5 [n=ln5@host-90-236-40-189.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:52:41 leo2007: there are many defclass* type of macros around. at some point you'll notice they are not that helpful 15:52:56 when you use databases, you often do things like (defclass persistent-foo () (:metaclass persistent-class)) 15:52:57 michaelw: they are. 15:53:11 so it'd be good to start with what cl offers, right? 15:53:14 michaelw: they'r representing declarative programming. 15:53:42 leo2007: If you want to save yourself some typing, try C-x r C with redshank 15:53:46 leo2007: if you find that you need the MOP, look into it, but not unless you find that the stuff defined in the CLHS is insufficient. 15:54:10 ok 15:54:16 thank you all. 15:54:24 -!- ejs [n=eugen@68-22-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:54:32 michaelw: that point haven't come for us after using ours that we've been using for the last two years... :) 15:54:55 Adlai: here is your man. 15:54:56 attila_lendvai: good on ya 15:55:06 Adlai: that you've been asking, heh. 15:55:11 michaelw: it's not about typing... it's about factorig... 15:55:13 v0|d: hmm? 15:55:26 Adlai: the guy own defclass* macro. 15:56:05 I know who attila_lendvai is (by reputation, not personally). I was wondering who the "we" is in "we've made an agreement with attila... so we name everthing ..." 15:56:18 if i have a pattern on how to name accessors then i want the computer to implement that pattern for me, as opposed to me keeping it in mind all the time... 15:56:39 but anyways, i'm off now 15:56:44 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-189-48.vodafone.hu] has quit ["bye"] 15:56:50 ejs [n=eugen@68-22-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:41 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 15:57:50 its too bad he didn't wait around to find out thats exactly how redshank works 15:57:52 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest60251 15:58:03 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@68-22-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:58:07 mcspiff: pity, eh? :) 15:59:32 minion: redshank for ME 15:59:33 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``redshank''. 15:59:37 although for me personally, that was a tricky realization, that some things can be done at the editor level instead of the macro level. 15:59:47 *Adlai* has a cliki page to write, after somebody explains wth redshank is 16:00:01 -!- Guest60251 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 16:00:32 fwiw, I find that my defclass forms are not looking very regular wrt. slot forms, sometimes it's :reader only, sometimes :accessor, sometimes :reader foo :writer %foo, sometimes a mix, or multiple :reader/:writers, etc. 16:00:48 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:01:06 michaelw: that's not the deal 16:01:19 michaelw: it's all bout inputting more information into defclass. 16:01:22 but now the whole paredit+redshank+yasnippets+slime combo, I can make code just sorta...appear 16:01:22 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:01:31 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:32 -!- divisionbell [n=kenan@78.172.78.92] has left #lisp 16:01:34 not to obfuscate the normal usage of defclass. 16:01:46 Adlai: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=redshank+lisp 16:01:59 sorry about that, my wireless is flaky at best... 16:02:26 I think the point of defclass wrappers is to "provide sane defaults for common cases" 16:02:36 michaelw: Yeah but you don't care when you first tackle a problem. You just want it there and don't loose mind about it. Along with a good PRINT-OBJECT method. 16:02:39 michaelw: are you the author of redshank? 16:02:52 michaelw: That's the reason why I actually like DEFSTRUCT more for explorative programming. 16:02:57 Adlai: for instance defclass+ has a :print t/nill slot keyword. 16:03:26 v0|d: you mean for printing it in the class's print-object method 16:03:27 ? 16:03:37 *Fare* updates the XCVB TODO. So near and so far... 16:03:44 michaelw: (+: I also like the fact that :type isn't ignored by default optimization settings for defstruct) 16:03:49 Adlai: yes, defclass+ defines a print method for your class. 16:04:02 Adlai: since you've given all necessary info, it can. 16:04:09 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 16:04:32 actually i want to be able to define new slot keywords (slot operations) 16:04:42 but i didn't go that far yet. 16:04:42 tcr: isn't it ignored in defclass with any optimization settings? 16:04:51 v0|d: try to beat C-x C-r C foo 2*RET slot1 RET slot2 2*RET ;-) 16:05:13 stassats: how can you have a typed class? 16:05:18 tcr: hence a kbd macro which makes the defclass form appear 16:05:26 eh, that was for tcr 16:05:33 or stassats too, I guess. 16:05:33 tcr: defstruct and redefinition... 16:05:49 Adlai: slot types 16:05:57 leo2007: yes 16:06:07 *Adlai* clhses defstruct -- didn't know you could have slot types 16:06:10 michaelw: try satisfying first order relations over your types with emacs. 16:06:16 michaelw: depending on your workflow (especially the paper/screen balance), that might not be such an issue. 16:06:19 stassats: no, you get type checking in sbcl at high safety, and in ccl with various safety 16:06:27 stassats: that's my point 16:06:34 *Adlai* heads off to do a whole lot of premature optimization to his structs :P 16:06:35 Krystof: well, that safety, not optimization 16:06:40 michaelw: works if you only add to the end :) 16:06:41 s/that/that's/ 16:06:50 erm 16:06:51 tcr: yarr :) 16:07:00 there is more than one axis of optimization 16:07:01 stassats: safety is an optimization setting. As in (declare (optimize safety)). 16:07:14 oh right 16:07:15 michaelw: that means divide into two with an axe in my lang. 16:07:27 michaelw: ie water melon. 16:07:28 i was thinking about speed 16:07:42 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:07:47 michaelw: What I'd really like is a DEFINE-STRUCTLIKE-CLASS but I haven't come around writing that. 16:08:24 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-166-217.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 16:08:39 I think my main point is that all these defclass*+? variants are fine in code that I never have to read 16:08:51 Krystof: exactly 16:08:52 *michaelw* scribbles redshank-defstructify and redshank-defclassify on his todo list 16:09:17 declassify sounds better 16:09:17 I don't want to have to guess (or repeatedly macroexpand) to find out what some random hacker with not very much experience thinks is a "sane" common case 16:09:32 i wonder why clos dispatch includes only classes not usual type. 16:09:35 any ideas? 16:09:59 i generally want to be able to dispatch over usual type defined via deftype just like t. 16:10:15 michaelw: Also, on Allegro structs seem to be implemented on top of some clos magic. You can add/remove slots as you want. 16:10:28 v0|d: a type is a set of values, a class is a description of the structure of similar objects 16:10:29 because arbitrary types do not form a lattice, and linearising them is generally not possible, and ... and and and 16:11:17 Krystof: thanks for the answer. 16:11:19 KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-1-14.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:20 v0|d: you could read my paper about generalized specializers and the references therein to find out more 16:11:24 (defmethod foo ((x (satisfies primep)) ...) :) 16:11:25 Krystof: of course they form a lattice; we have AND/OR/NOT types. 16:11:48 (integer 0 10) (integer 1 11) 16:11:49 (integer 10 20) and (integer 5 10), what type is more specific? 16:12:02 oh, I see what you mean 16:12:07 It's type equality that becomes undecidable/easily NP-HARD.. 16:12:08 sorry 16:12:20 hm 16:12:31 the point about linearization is the correct one, anyway 16:12:42 *Adlai* sets up redshank 16:12:45 permutations. 16:12:47 pkhuong (and Baker) are of course correct about the latticeness 16:12:59 *mcspiff* finds the sbcl build output oddly soothing 16:12:59 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-17.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 16:13:31 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:13:38 i wish i met baker in person. 16:13:39 mcspiff: you like it when you find out that your compiler is smarter than you? 16:13:43 is there no M-x slime-who-macroexpands for SBCL? 16:13:51 is sbcl HEAD know to have test failures for sb-posix on OSX? 16:14:10 Adlai: i wish that is true. 16:14:11 michaelw: I don't think I saw any yesterday on snow leopard/x86-64. 16:14:13 weirdo: should be, but i'm not sure 16:14:21 weirdo: There is 16:14:24 v0|d: it never deletes unreachable code for you? 16:14:28 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:14:32 Adlai: never write such. 16:14:38 actually, I find it really funny when SBCL deletes unreachable code while building itself 16:14:38 weirdo: What there isn't, is slime-who-specializes 16:14:51 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:52 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 16:15:20 who-macroexpands shows no results, who-specializes says it's not implemented on sbcl 16:15:26 Adlai: that happens frequently with generated code (e.g. etypecase or cond) or inlined functions. 16:15:39 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-250.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:16:16 pkhuong: ah, good point. There crumble my dreams of finding easy improvements to SBCL. 16:16:36 Adlai, see the bug tracker on launchpad 16:16:46 there should be pleny of easy stuff to do 16:16:51 Adlai: would you recommend redshank? 16:16:59 leo2007, i would 16:17:00 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:17:00 fusss_ [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 16:17:04 weirdo: Try on another macro 16:17:11 weirdo: For example on swank::with-bindings 16:17:14 leo2007: I haven't written any code with it yet, but I know many people do 16:17:15 is it like snippet? 16:18:04 tcr, hmm, it didn't work 'cause the macro was called on toplevel, not inside a function 16:18:23 leo2007: not really, they do different things mostly 16:18:37 leo2007: does things like: take the following forms, turn them into a defun, and then stick a call to the new function here. 16:18:56 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-249.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:22:38 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-250.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:45 -!- ln5 [n=ln5@host-90-236-40-189.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:24:01 I am watching the video and it seems it uses the mini-buffer a lot 16:24:34 leo2007: so do the editor syntax macros for some other languages 16:24:48 it's actually not a bad idea for short things like symbol names 16:25:18 leo2007: yup, it does. 16:27:06 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:29:30 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:24 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:33:57 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-100-124.customers.d1-online.com] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 16:34:22 ln5 [n=ln5@host-90-236-40-189.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 16:34:23 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:34:27 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:47 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:34:50 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-249.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:37:06 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-72-136.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 16:38:37 'morning 16:38:53 -!- ln5 [n=ln5@host-90-236-40-189.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:45:22 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 16:46:43 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:47:41 Morning. 16:47:55 hey gigamonkey. congratulations on the new book. 16:50:19 remorning, gigamonkey 16:54:08 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-222-47.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:17 Fade: thanks! 16:54:54 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BF44.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:54 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-32-200.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:31 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:58:37 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:58:41 ruepel0r [n=rue@77-22-58-33-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:01:05 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:02:01 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:04:08 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:03 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:06:38 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 17:07:24 deafmacro [n=user@59.92.169.2] has joined #lisp 17:08:38 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:08:53 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-129-240.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:09:14 there's a new book? 17:10:15 minion: caw for necroforest 17:10:16 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``caw''. 17:10:22 minion: coders-at-work for necroforest 17:10:22 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``coders-at-work''. 17:10:25 awww 17:10:29 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.204.13] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:10:39 minion: love 17:10:39 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``love''. 17:10:45 http://codersatwork.com/ 17:10:51 Cold, heartless bot. 17:10:57 minion: are you a bot? 17:10:58 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 17:11:51 minion: am i a bot? 17:11:51 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 17:12:10 Elench: I think he just scans messages for the word bot 17:12:16 minion: what is a bot? 17:12:16 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 17:12:18 So it would seem 17:12:25 minion: let's get to the bottom of this 17:12:26 Would you /please/ stop playing with me? 3 messages in 35 seconds is too many. 17:12:31 I still want to know if i'm a bot though 17:12:40 minion: C@W 17:12:40 C@W: Coders at Work, a book of interviews with notable programers by Peter Seibel, author of Practical Common Lisp. http://www.codersatwork.com 17:12:44 *Adlai* counts to 35... slowly... 17:13:06 gigamonkey: wouldn't you rather have a cliki page? although I guess it might be seen as offtopic there, since the book isn't explicitly about CL.. 17:13:30 Does minion remember his terms when he dies and gets resurrected? 17:13:45 maybe, maybe not. 17:13:55 minion: tell me about successful-lisp 17:13:55 Adlai: please see successful-lisp: Successful Lisp is a book providing an all-around summary of Common Lisp, available online at http://www.psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/ 17:14:17 gigamonkey: unless he hasn't died in the ~5-6 months that I've been lisping, he doesn't forget them when he dies. 17:14:33 (I added that term waaaay back when I was a young lisper) 17:15:41 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:15:49 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 17:15:58 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:06 ln5 [n=ln5@host-90-236-40-189.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 17:18:13 Adlai, now you're an old dodderer? 17:18:24 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-66-1.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:18:32 Fare: I wrestled with a setf expansion and won. 17:18:51 although if you measure by age... 17:18:53 minion: adlai? 17:18:54 adlai: Adlai is a Person (who could be counted as one of the YoungLispers) who began exploring Common Lisp around April 2009. http://www.cliki.net/adlai 17:19:04 ... that makes me a "YoungLisper". 17:19:14 minion: "Peter Seibel" 17:19:15 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 17:19:19 minion: Peter Seibel 17:19:20 Peter Seibel: Peter Seibel is a Person who has written an introductory book about Common Lisp, Practical Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/Peter%20Seibel 17:19:21 -!- xan_ is now known as xan 17:19:28 minion: Practical Common Lisp 17:19:29 Practical Common Lisp: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available on the web at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and also in dead-tree form from Apress. http://www.cliki.net/Practical%20Common%20Lisp 17:25:15 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:40 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:20 -!- kleppari [n=spa@212.30.204.85] has quit ["leaving"] 17:27:53 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-135.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 17:28:11 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:54 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:29:55 kleppari [n=spa@212.30.204.85] has joined #lisp 17:31:19 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p57915A8E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:03 divisionbell [n=kenan@78.172.78.92] has joined #lisp 17:34:30 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.96.47] has joined #lisp 17:36:27 ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-91-218.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:40:08 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["*bork bork*"] 17:41:56 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:42:30 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.238.249] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:43:37 antifuchs: mublagout? 17:44:20 -!- kleppari [n=spa@212.30.204.85] has quit ["leaving"] 17:44:26 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 17:46:38 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:47:10 -!- ln5 [n=ln5@host-90-236-40-189.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:48:19 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@68.126.198.233] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:55:02 Xach: gesundheit! 17:57:57 minion: Common Lisp 17:57:58 Common Lisp: Common Lisp is a computer language in the Lisp family, descending primarily from Maclisp and Interlisp (see Lisp History). http://www.cliki.net/Common%20Lisp 17:58:05 minion: Lisp 17:58:05 Lisp: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 18:01:19 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:03 -!- fusss_ [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:04:00 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-0-219.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:08:49 -!- divisionbell [n=kenan@78.172.78.92] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:08:56 milanj [n=milan@79.101.204.13] has joined #lisp 18:09:45 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:09:50 -!- deafmacro [n=user@59.92.169.2] has left #lisp 18:10:23 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:11:39 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:26 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 18:12:48 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:52 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 18:17:04 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [Client Quit] 18:17:43 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229180057.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 18:18:03 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BF44.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:18:16 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.96.47] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:18:33 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BF44.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:36 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BF44.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:18:56 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BF44.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:14 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-10-167.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:27 <_3b> http://3bb.cc/tmp/assimp-tex.png 18:20:02 nice dwarf 18:20:08 _3b: woo! 18:20:16 _3b: I'm curious, what window manager is that? 18:20:24 <_3b> sawfish 18:20:42 Ah. What theme, then? >_> 18:20:49 deafmacro [n=user@59.92.169.2] has joined #lisp 18:21:41 <_3b> Makoryu: 3b :p 18:22:19 Ah, that's almost a "yes" :p 18:22:24 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0624.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:22:53 <_3b> i just grabbed some random theme and rewrote the window decorations if i remember right 18:23:58 _3b: so what's the screenshot all about? 18:24:55 <_3b> sykopomp: textures! 18:25:03 <_3b> 2 of them even, and on the correct objects 18:25:25 using devil? 18:25:38 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:25:40 <_3b> yeah 18:25:54 stipet [n=user@c83-253-28-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:25:55 sohail [n=sohail@69.165.139.44] has joined #lisp 18:25:57 <_3b> (worked a lot better once i initialized the library before trying to load things :p ) 18:25:57 nice 18:26:03 :D 18:26:24 holy niceness! 18:26:34 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B838.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 18:26:38 *Adlai* just suspended the computer, resumed, and remained connected to IRC! 18:27:06 hmm wrong channel, but niceness nonetheless. 18:28:17 minion: chant 18:28:17 MORE COMPILERS 18:30:22 tagac [n=user@27.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:32:43 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:35:00 -!- deafmacro [n=user@59.92.169.2] has left #lisp 18:35:04 kingless [n=user@adsl-144-140-128.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:40 benny [n=benny@i577A0624.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:35:51 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-1-14.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:35:51 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 18:36:43 -!- mfk [n=user@kpbisb.static.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:40:41 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:41:51 -!- greyhame [n=jao@80.31.221.191] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:42:18 greyhame [n=jao@40.Red-83-33-120.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:39 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:44:29 -!- jikanter [n=jordan@24.148.12.119] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:45:20 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:45:34 -!- greyhame [n=jao@40.Red-83-33-120.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:48:29 But there is a bug... 18:48:36 Whoops, wrong channel. Apologies. 18:49:55 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@77-22-58-33-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:50:16 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.211.166] has joined #lisp 18:50:22 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:46 greyhame [n=jao@80.31.221.183] has joined #lisp 18:51:52 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:57:58 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:58:08 -!- greyhame [n=jao@80.31.221.183] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:00:05 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-90-140.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:00:45 greyhame [n=jao@234.Red-83-42-208.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:15 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:13 -!- greyhame [n=jao@234.Red-83-42-208.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:06:14 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:06:28 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 19:07:39 -!- Athas` is now known as Athas 19:08:49 frontiers [n=frontier@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:49 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-222-47.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:11:31 redline6561: how is terminal handling going? :-) 19:14:26 greyhame [n=jao@75.Red-88-6-168.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:00 francogrex [n=user@91.180.181.153] has joined #lisp 19:18:20 Hi, I have windows but would like to install linux (knoppix) as dual OS on my PC. I googled but there were'nt a lot of "how to" and from the few they all talk somewhere about usinf a floppy. My PC doesn't have a floppy 19:18:39 Can anyone please guide me through 19:18:56 I have data on windows and programs that I don't want to lose 19:18:58 francogrex: step 1, find the right channel 19:19:04 step 2, hope that people here will help 19:19:21 Adlai: Soory all I thought I wasn in linux 19:19:35 out of habit I went into #lisp 19:19:41 francogrex: step 3, make a separate partition for linux, install on that partition, then install grub. 19:19:45 sorry again all. I'll copy paste 19:19:54 to that channel. Bye for now 19:19:55 francogrex: most distributions like mandrake, fedora etc will install just fine and give you a boot menu for both os 19:19:57 Ooops 19:19:59 not sure about knoppix 19:22:03 francogrex: anyway, unless you're installing on PC that has mainboard with something before P6/K6 era (486, old Pentium, etc), it will start easily without floppy 19:23:26 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:24:47 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:26:47 francogrex: why knoppix? That's possible the worst choice I can imagine. 19:27:12 Ralith: that's another question. Though I kinda enjoyed the possibility of someone learning it on his own errors :P 19:27:19 hehe 19:27:49 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2C8D1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:56 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2C8D1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:27:56 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 19:27:59 ejs1 [n=eugen@95.135.124.10] has joined #lisp 19:28:18 *p_l* however, rather dislikes Ubuntu/RedHat. Mandrake was the only "easy to use" distro he liked 19:29:00 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 19:29:07 Mandrake is of redhat ancestry :P 19:29:08 *Adlai* is an Arch convert and zealot! 19:29:17 *Ralith* would take a debian based before redhat based any day 19:29:21 arch before either, of course. 19:29:31 but ubuntu's generally the best for newbies 19:29:35 minion: chant 19:29:35 MORE COMPILERS 19:29:44 still stuck on compilers? :( 19:30:52 how does chant work anyway 19:31:13 thunk [n=user@96-28-112-51.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 19:31:38 Ralith: Sure, it was based on Red Hat, but since around 7.0, while keeping filesystem structure and most package compatible, it had completely different configuration tools. Much better ones, I have to say 19:31:56 doesn't make rpm any less broken 19:32:21 -!- ejs [n=eugen@68-22-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:32:41 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.72.42] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:32:49 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@95.135.124.10] has quit [Client Quit] 19:34:07 minion: source 19:34:08 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``source''. 19:34:12 Hmmmm 19:34:26 jeti [n=jeti@p548EC797.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:46 minion: minion 19:35:46 minion: minion is an IRC robot (who prefers the term "electronically composed.") For online help, try /msg minion help Minion is hosted at common-lisp.net and is usually connected to the #lisp IRC channel. http://www.cliki.net/minion 19:36:57 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-250.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:39:35 -!- stipet [n=user@c83-253-28-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:39:45 more pizza 19:39:48 minion: chant 19:39:48 MORE PIZZA 19:39:53 YEEEEEAAAAHHHHH 19:40:02 *redline6561* loves his arch install 19:40:13 *redline6561* is also late to that discussion 19:40:32 minion: more Archery 19:40:33 archery me harder 19:40:41 minion: CHANT 19:40:41 MORE ARCHERY 19:40:56 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:37 Why doesn't it store multiple chants? 19:42:35 Makoryu: what do you mean? it only stores the latest 19:43:27 Adlai: Yes. Yes it does. 19:43:32 I'm looking at the source. 19:43:43 oh, you mean different chants for each channel? 19:43:51 *Adlai* throws a plug at sykobot 19:44:46 I think the code for CHANT is complex enough to be considered non-deterministic. 19:45:43 No, I mean it could store multiple chants and pick from them at random 19:49:35 easy manipulation is part of the appeal. 19:49:36 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:14 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.180.181.153] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:51:21 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:52:38 SBCL doesn't ship with CFFI, does it? 19:52:51 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@90.184.205.169] has quit ["leaving"] 19:53:41 nope but it's easy enough to grab them both 19:53:46 SB-ALIEN is the native FFI library. 19:54:32 *Adlai* just set up redshank! 19:56:18 qeek_ [n=jez@host86-137-91-24.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:56:44 -!- qeek_ [n=jez@host86-137-91-24.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has left #lisp 19:57:08 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:57:54 `serichsen [n=svante@hmbg-4d06edf4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:07 -!- tagac [n=user@27.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has left #lisp 19:59:37 michaelw pasted "sb-posix failures" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87381 20:00:01 Adlai: was it hard? 20:01:46 michaelw: README should have installation instructions... don't expect all your users to Use the Source 20:01:55 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2C8D1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:02:43 Adlai: first sentence in README is "See file redshank.el for setting up Redshank mode." 20:03:34 hmmm true... I scanned the file looking for exceptionally ugly Lisp commands 20:03:45 s/exceptionally ugly /E/ 20:05:01 Adlai: most elisp I looked at appears to have installation instructions at the beginning of the source, I was following their practice 20:05:31 michaelw: ah. As you can tell, I try to avoid looking at elisp... 20:05:52 now all I need is to get back to Lispy work and start using it 20:07:20 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-135.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 20:07:54 jikanter [n=jordan@c-98-206-30-125.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:41 -!- serichsen [n=svante@hmbg-4d06edf4.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:11:49 brad_ [i=48597c07@gateway/web/freenode/x-myctyvmmdajjkbvn] has joined #lisp 20:13:01 fxr [n=user@213.232.33.243] has joined #lisp 20:13:49 ln5 [n=ln5@81.225.14.174] has joined #lisp 20:15:13 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:21 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:18:51 -!- kingless [n=user@adsl-144-140-128.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:19:01 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BF44.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:19:04 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:19:07 Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:57 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-222-47.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:14 slash_ [n=Unknown@79.240.191.68] has joined #lisp 20:21:25 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:24:21 -!- jeti [n=jeti@p548EC797.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 20:25:27 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:25:40 -!- fxr [n=user@213.232.33.243] has left #lisp 20:26:28 -!- `serichsen is now known as serichsen 20:27:10 jeti [n=jeti@p548EC797.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:00 ak70 [n=user@195.158.89.22] has joined #lisp 20:30:37 Updated sbcl (1.0.25 from macports) and slime (2009-9-20) and I don't get a REPL buffer. Sticks in inferior lisp buffer instead. Any ideas? 20:30:57 <_3b> (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) ? 20:31:38 Shall I try or omit? I haven't something like that yet 20:31:57 <_3b> you should have something like that in .emacs 20:32:05 I see 20:32:18 <_3b> or at least '(slime-repl) if you dislike the other features slime-fancy adds 20:32:48 -!- jeti [n=jeti@p548EC797.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 20:33:26 cmo-0 [n=user@86.99.185.97] has joined #lisp 20:34:09 tekin [n=kaa@85.108.58.77] has joined #lisp 20:34:10 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-34-166.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:35:11 jeti [n=jeti@p548EC797.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:24 REPL works again thanks 20:36:23 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 20:37:18 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:25 -!- nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:42:48 pixpop [n=pixpop@76.208.129.200] has joined #lisp 20:42:57 nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 20:45:17 -!- pixpop [n=pixpop@76.208.129.200] has quit [Client Quit] 20:47:28 TDT [n=dthole@254.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:17 so http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Installation.html#Installation should be updated or do I miss sth? 20:48:36 I don't know if it's been updated. 20:48:48 but it rarely is 20:49:41 <_3b> the repl is optional now, http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/REPL.html#REPL talks about it 20:50:07 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-0-219.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:50:12 *_3b* would mention it in the install part if it were my decision though 20:50:47 I see 20:50:56 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 20:53:58 <_3b> is there a (standard/cl-fad/easy) function to get containing directory of a file or directory? 20:55:34 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-250.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:42 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B838.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:22 :relative :up? 20:56:44 or maybe :back 20:56:55 <_3b> what do i pass that to? 20:57:14 hmm 20:57:27 _3b: make-pathname 20:57:32 in the :directory component. 20:57:54 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-17-83.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:59:55 <_3b> looks like that might do it 21:04:18 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@86.99.185.97] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:06:59 -!- raptelan [n=Casey@c-68-49-132-34.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:07:22 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-17.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:12 Hmm...been digging like crazy for this, but haven't found it yet - what's the function to convert from a single character to a number. For example "1" would be returned as an integer of value 1, 2 integer 2 and so on. 21:09:58 <_3b> clhs digit-char-p 21:09:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_digi_1.htm 21:10:12 TDT: you might use read-from-string 21:10:14 <_3b> also, char to extract a character from a string might be helpful 21:10:20 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 21:10:42 (read-from-string "15") => 15 21:10:55 *mishoo* thinks ..oO( though I'm sure there are better ways ) 21:10:56 Yeah, already going through the string, but using a loop for that (kinda necessary for the use case right now) 21:11:13 parse-integer 21:11:22 Thanks for the suggestions, digit-char-p looks like it'll work well for this. char-int I thought was it at frist. 21:11:29 http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/strings.html#number 21:11:55 * (parse-integer "42") 21:12:00 => 42 21:12:26 Yeah, that woudl work well if it wasn't for this specific use case...Doing problem #8 at project euler. 21:13:15 -!- pawel [n=pawel@188.33.107.207] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:13:20 Which basically you get a 1k string of numbers, and the job is to find the maximum 5 consecutive numbers multiplied together. 21:13:55 brad annotated #87252 "beginner problem fix" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87252#1 21:14:11 So..my solution for that was a do loop, with another loop that does a loop across the substring, taking each character, convert to a number then multiply it into a temporary variable which then I set the if it is the greatest seen so far. 21:14:23 I'll upload the code in a sec, I'm kinda curious if I could write this better :) 21:15:00 http://paste.lisp.org/display/87252#1 21:15:08 (misclick) 21:15:36 http://projecteuler.net/index.php?section=problems&id=8 -- this is the problem I was working on, now complete..pasting the code now. 21:16:30 TDT pasted "eular-p8" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87388 21:16:38 MrSmiley909 [n=Mr@r37h66.res.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 21:16:43 -!- joswig [n=joswig@f054054223.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 21:17:00 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.204.13] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:17:26 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:17:37 If there are any optimizations anyone feels I could make, please let me know. Fun little program though, runs fairly quick as well. 21:18:39 TDT: you only need to traverse the sequence once. 21:18:46 first one is easy: the name is "euler" ;) 21:18:49 lukego: herep 21:19:31 error: the variable HEREP is unbound. 21:19:33 benny` [n=benny@i577A0624.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:19:48 pkhuong: So do you mean "cache" the prior 4 multiplication outcomes and just multiply it by the new element found to compare? 21:20:13 int80_h [n=michael@unaffiliated/int80h/x-0283782] has joined #lisp 21:20:20 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:20:22 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0624.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:20:28 is this the proper channel for slime support? 21:20:47 The symbol lukego is about to be unbound if he doesn't watch it. ;-) 21:20:54 :-) 21:21:11 what's up? 21:21:18 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:21:18 lukego: I did soem more analysis of PCL v C@W. The best one-hour rating of PCL was #543 21:21:39 C@W has spent 136 hours at that rank or better. 21:21:43 I've been polling the amazon page. nice if people would stop thinking about iphones for an hour huh :) 21:22:26 int80_h: I think that you can ask here 21:22:50 And there was a period of one week and nine hours (i.e. 177 hours) when the average rank was 543. 21:22:55 lukego: yeah, no kidding. 21:23:15 thanks, I just found an alternate .emacs I used to use. I will try and go from there 21:23:44 Is there a function like max that will take parameters and an evaluation function and return the parameter with the maximum result from the evaluation function? 21:23:47 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:23:48 It's pretty amazing thinking about how well it feels like Coders is selling to then look at books that spend years in the top 100 of all books. 21:24:01 envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 21:24:22 bah to be #2 in software-development for multiple days is pretty amazing :) 21:24:33 TDT: what's the biggest product? (just want to confirm my result..) 21:24:50 <_3b> impressive, 138k lines of 'SB-KERNEL:*MAXIMUM-ERROR-DEPTH* exceeded.' backtraces into *inferior-lisp* before dropping to ldb :p 21:24:50 I'll IM it to you, incase others are doing it 21:25:10 mishoo annotated #87388 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87388#1 21:25:18 lukego: yeah, i feels great. 21:25:35 okay it still fails. I will post to paste-bin 21:25:35 TDT: just for fun... using some loop wizardry ;-) 21:26:23 this must be the most fun part of the whole process - the amazon.com polling for reviews and rankings :) 21:26:29 hah, I like that solution quite a bit there., I haven't seen that sorta syntax before 21:26:49 But then again, I don'tknow that much about loops yet. Only stuff out of PCL at this point 21:26:55 *mishoo* thinks ..oO( neither did I :)) ) 21:27:09 lukego: in a way. But also the most painful as there's very little I can do about it yet it's hard to ignore it. 21:27:29 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 21:27:31 I discovered by cross reference to jwz's blog that this "Stand behind you with mug of beer and grunt when you make a mistake" guy is actually the brain behind the compiler in what's now SBCL 21:27:36 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p57915A8E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:27:46 gigamonkey: For your next lisp book, can you write something focusing on loops a bit more :) like..a hundred or so pages on stuff people can do with em :) 21:28:01 int80_h pasted "slime madness" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87390 21:28:07 But now that the book is actually out, it's feeling like I'm a lot closer to being able to move on and just wait for my quarterly royalty statements to let me know how it's doing. 21:28:43 TDT: Hmmmm. Maybe not 100 pages but maybe "100 Loops" would be interesting. 21:28:54 Actually that'd probably come out to around 100 pages. 21:28:57 Interesting. 21:30:20 mishoo: if I'm understanding this correct, each time through the loop it's binding (a b c d e) on the (1 2 3 4 5), (2 3 4 5 6), .. [indexes]? But I wonder if mapcar is executing its internal looping each time one's reassigning the values for a, b, c, d, e. 21:30:50 TDT: yes, the "stepping" is specified as "by #'cdr" 21:30:50 "100 loops and 100 formats" 21:31:03 newcmr [i=5803cf30@gateway/web/freenode/x-qyjlfbnmggwyucjd] has joined #lisp 21:31:11 TDT: so first time, a b c d e = first 5 numbers, next a b c d e = numbers 2 to 6 etc. 21:31:14 gigamonkey: I think it may be helpful..since working on project eular, almost every task so far was some sorta loop - using do or the loop keyword, and found I have a lot of work to learn these better..but gained a lot in the last few days. 21:31:23 or.. "How to contend with the non-lispy domain languages in common lisp!" 21:31:25 "while e" is necessary because at some point e becomes nil 21:31:29 michaelw: i see the same errors also 21:31:34 tere's a launchpad bug for it 21:31:35 https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/421779 21:32:11 hi, anyone have a chance to look at my slime problem? 21:32:35 mishoo: Ah ok, what about that mapcar inside...is that executed just once? 21:33:14 int80_h: just looked at it. No ideas here. 21:33:53 int80_h: where is slime-autoloads.el ? 21:33:54 Unless possibly emacs cares about the lack of the trailing '/' when you add the contrib directory to load-path. 21:33:59 TDT: yes 21:34:06 ah! 21:34:27 TDT: it converts the string of digits to a list of numbers 21:34:44 mishoo: Yeah, just wasn't sure if it did that each time through the loop or just once. 21:35:06 danlei [n=user@pD9E2C8D1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:13 To understand loops better, what resources are people using for that? 21:35:15 mishoo: by #'cdr is the default stepping 21:35:16 TDT: don't take my word for it, macroexpand it ;-) 21:35:37 I took care of the trailing /, and changed slime-autoloads to slime. I get the same complaint but about slime now 21:35:49 gigamonkey: oh, cool :) had no idea 21:35:58 oh crap I see what happend 21:36:08 bah 21:36:12 *int80_h* blushes 21:36:26 it installed in /usr/local/slime/slime 21:36:33 I did the cvs install incorrectly 21:36:44 gigamonkey: I'm newbie too.. that line is in fact based on knowledge I got from "loop for black belts" from PCL, which I thank you for :-) 21:36:58 mishoo: You're welcome. 21:37:02 michaelw: which sucks cause sbcl won't work for me and CCL's asdf-install seems totally broken 21:37:16 i'm lispless! 21:37:22 smolyn: use clbuild 21:37:22 sbcl doesn't install here either I use ECL now 21:37:29 it sucks a little less than asdf-install. 21:37:45 i'll give it a try-- i'm thinking it might be a symlinking bug in ccl but i'm not sure 21:37:50 smolyn: a contrib failed its tests, that's all. You can still install SBCL. 21:38:03 I mailed the SBCL maintainer for my OS and he said "I'm working on it, use ECL for now." 21:38:06 it kills tke build on my machine 21:38:12 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:38:18 i do an install.sh and it leaves the old sb-posix in there 21:38:19 what's wrong with asdf-install? 21:38:25 *_3b* wonders what causes bus error on x86-64 linux 21:38:39 smolyn: rm the destination first. 21:38:52 You might also do (map 'list #'digit-char-p ...) rather than (mapcar #'digit-char-p (coerce ... 'list)) 21:39:23 -!- newcmr [i=5803cf30@gateway/web/freenode/x-qyjlfbnmggwyucjd] has left #lisp 21:39:25 ^ that was to mishoo and/or TDT 21:39:41 pkhuong: nope doesn't seem to install it at all now 21:40:33 good night 21:40:36 -!- serichsen [n=svante@hmbg-4d06edf4.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:40:39 -!- tekin [n=kaa@85.108.58.77] has quit [] 21:40:45 int80_h: what's your OS? I'm a bit out of the loop but I thought ecl was fairly exotic, that clisp would be the portable-favourite 21:41:00 leo2007: didn't we have this discussion the other day? 21:41:00 I use netbsd 5.0.1 21:41:08 weird :) 21:41:10 ecl installed w/out complaint 21:41:26 clisp is the portability king, for sure. 21:41:38 once I fix my silly slime problem, I'm hoping for a worry free install 21:41:40 gigamonkey: nice :) 21:41:43 although ccl has been a winner, for me, where sbcl doesn't go. 21:41:54 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:41:57 How would i represent negative infinity? 21:41:59 smolyn: for i in contrib/*; do touch $i/test-passed; done 21:42:11 MrSmiley909: unportably. What implementation are you using? 21:42:22 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:42:33 pkhuong: Clisp 21:43:28 gigamonkey annotated #87388 "Another LOOP approach" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87388#2 21:43:32 pkhuong: got a sec for the sb-posix thing? 21:43:45 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 21:44:54 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:45:41 michaelw: trying to reproduce first. 21:46:12 luis: yes. I'm just not sure about "it sucks a little less than asdf-install." 21:46:15 -!- ln5 [n=ln5@81.225.14.174] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:46:16 pkhuong: what errno does (SB-POSIX:MKDIR "/" 0) return for you? 21:46:40 pkhuong: perhaps something got hosed when installing Xcode on SL 21:47:08 gigamonkey: Hmm, that's interesting - so subseq takes a :key option, so basically you're converting it into an integer while inside that list, which reduce is multiplying each element together, and maximizing holding onto. 21:47:21 Is there some library like binary-types which allows defining data structures in random places in the stream(such as having to seek in some other place in the file), maybe along with their size, other useful features would be the ability to decide on which class to decode based on previously read slots(example, unicode string: int length / char data[length] in C-like syntax). I think the second case was described in PCL chapter 24 as well. A specific example 21:47:48 sweet, all is well 21:47:57 ljames: cut off at "a specific example" 21:48:02 A specific example of what I'd like to use this for: A DSL for describing various archive formats. 21:48:02 TDT: no REDUCE takes a :key option. 21:48:07 Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:19 Though I just realized that this means we're convertin each character five times which is probably bad. 21:48:23 ah, woops, missed that parens. 21:49:16 ljames: the stuff in PCL was intended for that kind of use. 21:50:09 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:50:34 MrSmiley909: You can try and use SCALE-FLOAT, e.g. (scale-float -1d0 1024). 21:51:09 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-17-83.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 21:51:24 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 21:51:26 -!- greyhame [n=jao@75.Red-88-6-168.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:51:56 chessguy_ [n=chessguy@pool-173-73-92-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:05 ak70` [n=user@195.158.89.22] has joined #lisp 21:52:49 michaelw: I get errno 21 (Is a directory). 21:52:52 -!- chessguy_ is now known as chessgu 21:53:15 -!- chessgu is now known as chessguy 21:53:19 I suppose I'll have to write some code to get an idea of what I can do with. 21:53:58 *with it 21:54:51 There's nothing in my binary parsing foo for seeking around in a file but it probably wouldn't be too terribly hard to add. 21:55:57 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:56:12 -!- kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 21:56:38 pkhuong: same here, for some reason it seems to expect 17 21:56:58 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 21:57:52 gigamonkey: your pasted expression runs one time too few the result of "12345" is 0, "123456" gives 120 21:58:24 hmm.... (cl:defconstant EEXIST 17 "NIL") 21:59:14 michaelw: sure, that same test fails here too. But it's marked as ok to fail on not-quite-posix OSes. 21:59:54 jeti: probably should use "to" instead of "below" 22:00:13 The answer is still the same 22:00:24 pkhuong: oh, perhaps I am barking up the wrong tree 22:01:13 perhaps this is the issue: # 22:01:25 mishoo: yes that does it 22:01:30 smolyn: if you think you've found a ccl bug, please consider making a ticket at http://trac.clozure.com/ccl 22:01:38 more likely. Do you have weird filenames in /tmp? 22:02:41 rme: ok, asdf-install in ccl:tools for me right now almost works, it just doesn't put symlinks in system/ 22:03:07 i can try to find more info 22:03:44 I've had another complaint or two about the bundled asdf-install; maybe it's time for me to update the bundled version to something more current. 22:03:46 pkhuong: not really 22:04:34 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p579159AD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:03 pkhuong: how can I run this interactively? 22:05:51 johnny_z [n=anonymou@217.24.250.130] has joined #lisp 22:05:59 `sup all 22:06:08 michaelw: what test is that? they're all in contrib/sb-posix/posix-tests.lisp 22:06:12 -!- MrSmiley909 [n=Mr@r37h66.res.gatech.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:06:14 any news about any cool lisp program? 22:06:25 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:06:42 johnny_z, xcvb now has an asdf backend that can make poiu usable in a maintainable way 22:06:44 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:00 Fare, explain a bit more 22:07:02 anyone interested in making CCL fork-friendly? 22:07:26 smolyn: see also http://trac.clozure.com/openmcl/ticket/452 22:07:26 -!- varjag [n=eugene@80.202.117.103] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:07:27 what is xcvb and poiu 22:07:31 ???? 22:07:31 johnny_z, I'm just trying to make a successor to ASDF. And it's mighty hard, because working code is not enough. 22:07:47 sorry but bit of a newcomer to lisp comunity 22:07:55 aha 22:08:10 so you are trying to extend asdf 22:08:18 with other options 22:08:25 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:08:27 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 22:08:38 minion: xcvb for johnny_z 22:08:38 johnny_z: please see xcvb: XCVB, an eXtensible Component Verifier and Builder for Lisp is an attempt to replace asdf. http://www.cliki.net/xcvb 22:08:49 -!- ak70 [n=user@195.158.89.22] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:08:57 -!- levy_ [n=levy@apn-89-223-194-18.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 22:09:57 pkhuong: readdir.1 (I was looking for sb-rt:do-test) 22:10:05 which is better? 22:10:13 xcvb vs asdf??? 22:11:19 johnny_z: I haven't used XCVB but I'm guessing it's both better and harder to use / less stable than ASDF, simply because it's newer. 22:11:49 ok 22:12:06 what implementation do you suggest better for windows xp? 22:12:12 -!- delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:12:19 Ubuntu 22:12:23 delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 22:12:29 -!- jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:12:31 then you can worry about setting up a Lisp system :) 22:12:33 jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 22:12:34 -!- codemonkeyx [n=codemonk@www.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:12:38 codemonkeyx [n=codemonk@www.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:42 i got ubuntu 9.04 too 22:12:48 what do you suggest for that 22:13:02 I'm serious though... Common Lisp on Windows is a bit painful nowadays, unless you're willing to pay some money for Lispworks or ACL 22:13:03 *_3b* would use sbcl or ccl on eitherplatform, maybe clisp 22:13:19 yeah tried them 22:13:25 ok, set up clbuild, slime, asdf, and your choice of implementation 22:13:37 i heard sbcl for linux is good 22:13:37 Adlai: what's bad about CCL on windows? 22:13:45 pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-129-200.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:46 other than the weird binary thing. 22:13:54 what weird binary thing? 22:14:21 as for what's bad -- lift up the corner of the CCL and peer underneath it... 22:14:48 Fare: "making CCL fork-friendly" ? 22:15:02 Adlai: what's that mean? 22:15:19 Adlai: iirc, 32bit ccl binaries don't work on 64bit windows. 22:15:26 rme: If you have CCL on Windows, what do you see when you peer underneath CCL? 22:15:44 Adlai: Windows? 22:15:54 *Adlai* nods head and ducks. 22:15:56 Ah, I get it. Sorry, slow to get the joke... 22:16:18 rme: don't worry, I'm a big fan of CCL 22:16:22 -!- gz_ [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:16:34 not a big fan of the trailing whitespace in the source code, but other than that -- big fan. 22:17:39 can you mention to me any big application written in lisp? 22:17:52 gz_ [n=gz@209.6.18.72] has joined #lisp 22:17:55 i mean that's commercial 22:18:19 http://www.inspiration.com/InspireData 22:18:23 johnny_z: QPX (produced by the company ITA) 22:18:29 jak and daxter 22:18:30 and shows advantages over being written with any other lang 22:18:32 also Piano, an aircraft analysis system 22:18:52 divisionbell [n=kenan@78.172.78.92] has joined #lisp 22:18:59 does anyone have a link to Dan Weinreb's talk about high performance transactions? 22:19:10 johnny_z: see http://www.inspiration.com/InspireData 22:19:17 johnny_z: pathway tools, a molecular biology thing 22:19:20 the two which stood out as dominating their field and had their success attributed primarily to Lisp are Viaweb and Jak and Daxter 22:19:33 about viaweb i heard 22:19:39 but jax and dexter nevere heard of them 22:19:39 unfortunately, both were ported to C++ after the companies were acquired by giants 22:19:45 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-249.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:19:58 johnny_z: console video game 22:20:03 also i heard about this game company "smashing dogs somthing" 22:20:06 johnny_z: videogame, wrote a compiler in Common Lisp for "GOAL" = Game Oriented Assembly Lisp 22:20:11 the pianox thing is here; http://www.piano.aero/ 22:20:16 so good that there are different apps out there that are alive and well (: 22:20:54 "Naughty Dog" sorry 22:22:04 does anybody know what implementations IDE's and compilers were used to create these software? 22:22:21 johnny_z: take a brief look at Piano... in the past ~20 years, not that many people have flown on aircraft that WEREN'T designed with Piano 22:22:40 johnny_z: Viaweb ran primarily on CLISP 22:22:41 pkhuong: huh, sb-posix:dirent-name returns names with the first character swallowed 22:22:48 Piano uses ACL, I believe 22:22:57 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:23:12 QPX runs either CCL or SBCL, I think both at various times 22:23:32 Adlai: Piano uses LW 22:23:42 fe[nl]ix, CCL starts threads early by default 22:23:47 Piano started out as an MCL application and was ported to LispWorks. 22:23:51 and MCL before 22:23:52 so they are not ported like standaolne exe's but rather run on the implementation itself or have the language embededd in the application i presume?!?!?? 22:23:59 InspireData was written in LispWorks. 22:24:07 fe[nl]ix: ok, there were too many commercial project at ECLM... don't remember which ran on which implementation :) 22:24:08 I once wrote a patch to add an option to not start background threads unless and until requested 22:24:15 but gb doesn't like it 22:24:21 it bitrot, got to rewrite it 22:24:23 *rme* and jeti are on the same wavelength 22:24:25 QPX afaik has core running on SBCL with some C bits and there is some stuff in CCL (I heard something about preference for CCL during development for compilation speed, right?) 22:24:46 *p_l* loves QPX's guest account 22:24:52 johnny_z: there is no distinction between those in lisp 22:25:11 p_l: I think the preference of CCL for compilation speed exists outside of ITA too 22:25:12 johnny_z: you can have a running image, which basically is "an exe" 22:25:31 -!- divisionbell [n=kenan@78.172.78.92] has left #lisp 22:25:53 the image also includes a full lisp implementation, including compiler and all 22:25:54 p_l: the CCL stuff is QRes 22:25:59 guaqua: i mean the application is bytecode interpreted like smalltalk or java apps running on top of VM, or it is standalone??? 22:26:15 It can be compiled to native code 22:26:38 johnny_z: another CL project is MSI, in Tokyo 22:26:39 most apps are deployed as images, standalone so to speak 22:26:46 -!- gz_ [n=gz@209.6.18.72] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:26:54 guaqua: ok, i get it 22:27:11 but what concerns me is the performance factor 22:27:32 i think being interpreted is slower then executing the native compiled code 22:27:33 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-249.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:27:35 johnny_z: you can compile CL 22:27:53 Adlai: MSI is a company. 22:27:57 gz_ [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:27:58 johnny_z, that depends on the implementation, but CL is often compiled to native code .. just as C is .. http://common-lisp.net/~dlw/LispSurvey.html "native code compiler" 22:28:18 yes, it's slower. However, you can compile CL into native code, so it runs as fast as, say, C 22:28:33 johnny_z, http://paste.lisp.org/display/83768 .. lisp -> x86 machine code 22:28:34 johnny_z: SBCL and CCL compile everything to native code by default, clisp has bytecode and dabbled with JIT, ECL has separate bytecode and C-code compiler 22:28:38 pkhuong: true, they just have one project in CL now, right? There was a talk about it at ECLM 22:28:38 yes yes, but i'm just asking about these softwares that you mention, for example InspireData runs like interpreted or it is native compiled? 22:28:48 note that "bytecodes" can be compiled... or hardware-run (like the x86 instruction set) 22:29:00 so bytecodes doesn't mean slow. Misdesign means slow. 22:29:15 how can you compile bytecodes? 22:29:26 how can you compile anything? 22:29:31 the same way 22:29:48 in clisp for example? 22:29:51 minion: clhs compile 22:29:51 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 22:29:55 -!- nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:30:08 johnny_z: I'm pretty sure that all production code is compiled 22:30:28 Adlai: ok, that's all i wanted to know 22:30:59 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:31:06 i asked bcs from what i'm seeing now this PianoX is distributed with its code 22:31:08 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:31:15 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:31:38 For 50000 quid i'd want the code, too. 22:31:40 no sorry 22:31:51 no source code in PianoX 22:32:50 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-078.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:33:09 what about cl ide's 22:33:25 minion: slime for johnny_z 22:33:25 johnny_z: look at slime: SLIME is the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/slime 22:33:31 is there any implementation with a interface builder like Visual Basic's? 22:33:47 i mean for easy gui development 22:33:57 seems like the #| comment parser in slime sometimes makes file editing unusably slow 22:34:32 rme: true :D 22:34:33 glade and gtk+ bindings, johnny_z 22:34:39 or the qt designer 22:34:42 johnny_z: you can build interfaces in Interface Builder.app and use the resulting .nib files from CCL 22:34:47 ...with the qt bindings 22:34:55 i have qt in windows 22:35:01 how can i connect qt with sbcl? 22:35:02 well, that's a shame 22:35:19 *p_l* plans to distribute code together with binaries for few projects he has on his drawing board. Except they are not going to be seld cheaply :D 22:35:51 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:35:53 -!- gz` [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:36:17 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:36:36 yes shame, but can you help me? 22:37:07 how to use qt with sbcl? 22:37:10 http://common-lisp.net/project/commonqt/ /might/ run in windows and sbcl. 22:37:14 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:41 but windows is a second-class host to sbcl 22:37:57 well, it's the one I am running on now 22:37:59 and there is a high probability of bugs and deficiencies 22:38:13 in addition to the very likely bugs in commonqt 22:38:21 I just want to have a fast look on this 22:38:36 what bugs>? 22:38:41 well, if commonqt doesn't work, probably nothing will 22:38:47 "CommonQt probably still has many bugs." 22:38:48 I remember seeing someone post on c.l.l about some commercial windows gui application he wrote using qt and ecl, but this means he actually had to write a bit of C++ code for the GUI, heh 22:38:55 is what it says in the "Bugs" section 22:39:23 but I believe it's the best-working qt thing available 22:39:33 so i cant be compiled on win? 22:39:39 I believe it can 22:39:41 johnny_z: linking to C++ code is rather buggy always, and SMOKE goes through hoops to get us object-oriented bindings 22:39:51 or its buggy for linux too? 22:39:53 but I'm not sure if it's straightforward 22:40:01 or if it has been tested in recent months 22:40:08 so you are on your own, is what I'm saying 22:40:13 ok 22:40:14 do try it, but expect pitfalls 22:40:17 what about glade? 22:40:45 how to use it with sbcl in winxp? 22:44:29 i don't think many use sbcl on windows 22:44:52 coz im lokking for something like Visual Studio with code editing suported in the interface builder 22:45:16 perhaps you should stick to C# and .Net then 22:45:18 i think glade's a bit stressing 22:45:58 johnny_z: CL isn't exactly for building slick GUIs (although efforts are underway to make it better for that) 22:46:15 you have to design the interface, make the last mods, save it and then export it as xml in the lisp system and then use it without modifying it intime 22:46:55 -!- pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-129-200.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:46:56 Adlai: do you know any project which is being worked about that? 22:48:01 johnny_z: there's dwim for web guis 22:48:04 minion: dwim 22:48:05 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``dwim''. 22:48:09 minion: cl-dwim 22:48:09 cl-dwim: cl-dwim is something like what people call an application server when it comes in other languages. http://www.cliki.net/cl-dwim 22:48:19 johnny_z: LispWorks has sort of interface builder for CAPI 22:48:44 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:00 pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-129-200.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:04 what can you do with this DWIM?? 22:49:11 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-249.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:49:12 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@90.149.117.111] has left #lisp 22:49:22 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p579159AD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:49:50 if I were to have a quit messages telling most people to fuck off, I wouldn't have my ip advertised as well. 22:49:56 johnny_z: http://dwim.hu/ 22:50:08 int80_h: It's probably a quote 22:50:22 oh heh, explains the quotes 22:50:50 if you want to build GUI apps on WIN I think LispWorks Capi is the best choice. Its commercial but they have a free personal edition 22:51:12 int80_h: naw, the quotes are generated by the server. quotes distinguish server-generated quit messages from user-supplied ones 22:51:33 gotcha , thanks 22:51:41 ok 22:51:43 got the idea 22:51:45 well, reverse. user-supplied messages get quotes 22:52:18 -!- pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-129-200.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:52:46 ok 22:52:48 thanx for all 22:53:21 -!- johnny_z [n=anonymou@217.24.250.130] has quit [] 22:54:10 -!- scode_ [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit ["leaving"] 22:54:29 scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 22:55:18 -!- scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Client Quit] 22:55:47 scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 22:56:36 -!- scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Client Quit] 22:56:41 *Adlai* wonders whether johhny will ever get what he's after 22:57:14 scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 23:02:47 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:28 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:06:37 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:11:17 -!- ia_ [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 23:11:37 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-113-8.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:12:34 Adlai: hopefully, with DWIM he should... 23:12:49 pjb: but will it do what HE means? 23:15:26 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:18:41 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 23:19:50 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:21:57 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:25:10 hoeq^ [n=hoeq@213-65-76-219-no91.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 23:25:25 -!- hoeq [n=hoeq@213-65-76-219-no91.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:28:20 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:50 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 23:29:22 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:29:27 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:30:51 -!- jikanter [n=jordan@c-98-206-30-125.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:31:23 -!- jeti [n=jeti@p548EC797.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:32:54 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 23:33:21 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-65-100.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:33:27 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.211.166] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 23:35:10 dto [n=dto@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:17 Fare: hi. 23:36:05 sohail [n=sohail@69-165-139-44.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:39:30 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:45 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:51 jeti [n=jeti@p548EFDFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:52 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-90-140.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:42:31 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-91-218.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:46:39 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:49:44 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-049-015.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:50:27 -!- jeti [n=jeti@p548EFDFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 23:57:25 pkhuong: hmm, might have been a build from a bad sbcl or so... 23:57:29 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-222-47.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]