00:01:03 ok, this is beyond me but here's a last-ditch effort 00:01:24 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:01:28 (defmacro set-attribute(object name value) 00:01:28 `(setf (slot-value object ,(intern name)) ,value)) 00:02:05 this is getting *very* boring. 00:02:28 view [n=view@211.144.103.69] has joined #lisp 00:02:39 oh come on void 00:02:40 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-153-123.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 00:02:40 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:02:50 he's a n00b and I'm more than a little intoxicated 00:02:58 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:03:46 also standard-attribute is a defstruct 00:03:50 a DEFSTRUCT 00:06:38 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 00:08:31 `. 00:09:59 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:10:10 gonzojive [n=red@DN800c9e08.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 00:10:39 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:34 -!- milfadoodle [n=badgerfa@78-69-144-82-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:13:48 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 00:17:14 ... guess I should have kept that last part to myself 00:25:49 StrmSrfr: ...you know there's accessors, right? 00:25:49 lemuel [n=user@ppp-70-244-201-131.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:49 -!- StrmSrfr [n=storm@adsl-233-15-130.mia.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 00:26:45 StrmSrfr [n=storm@adsl-233-15-130.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:53 -!- StrmSrfr [n=storm@adsl-233-15-130.mia.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 00:31:45 lsk2 [n=lsk2_4@122.116.5.215] has joined #lisp 00:34:21 -!- gonzojive [n=red@DN800c9e08.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:35:59 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-239.netcologne.de] 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Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:31 gigamonkey: what a range of opinions about C and pointers exposed in your book. 01:32:42 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:00 -!- trebor_home [n=email@dslb-084-058-246-104.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:36:25 -!- hefner [n=hefner@58.9.114.48] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:37:52 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-47.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:40:12 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:39 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-138-45.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:42 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279634139.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:43:37 segv [n=mb@207-172-92-9.c3-0.129-ubr3.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:43:55 pixpop [n=pixpop@76.208.147.255] has joined #lisp 01:44:00 hefner [n=hefner@58.9.115.14] has joined 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OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:09:15 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 02:10:21 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 02:11:31 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:11:45 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 02:15:55 -!- Fare [n=Fare@173-9-63-74-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:18:15 segv [n=mb@207-172-92-9.c3-0.129-ubr3.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:18:18 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 02:20:02 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:17 wgl: Re C: yup. 02:23:04 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:25:31 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:25:45 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:25:55 wgl, gigamonkey: In CaW? 02:28:32 -!- Levenson1 [n=alex@95.59.95.100] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:29:14 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:29:56 Levenson [n=Levenson@95.59.95.100] has joined #lisp 02:32:25 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:32:26 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:27 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-13-241.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 02:38:03 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-76-254-48-240.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:31 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-69-128.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:40:55 -!- milanj- [n=milan@212.200.194.165] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:42:56 -!- pepone [n=pepone@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit ["KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: 3437, sources date: 20090703, built on: 2009/09/09 21:03:17 UTC http://www.kvirc.net/"] 02:43:01 pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-147-255.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:47 -!- pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-147-255.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:43:49 will killing a thread prevent an unwind-protect's cleanup form from running, or do lisps make sure u-p runs properly?... 02:45:21 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:45:27 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 02:46:01 I'd imagine it would depend on whether you kill the thread through the Lisp or through `pkill -9' 02:46:04 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:46:07 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 02:46:24 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.164.103] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:46:39 Adlai: I mean killing it within the lisp image. It -seems- to work, but I'm not entirely sure if it's behavior that should always be expected. 02:46:44 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:49:12 Well, unless your Lisp decides to have wildly un-ANSI-CL-like multiprocessing, it probably takes care of u-p forms. 02:49:57 how can it be un-ansi if the spec doesn't even bother to address multiproc? :P 02:50:13 Makoryu: yes, CaW 02:50:18 because the spec addresses u-p... 02:51:11 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:51:32 hm 02:51:45 I guess "a control transfer of some kind" might include murdering a thread. 02:51:47 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:32 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-17.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:39 well, it's the question of whether "murdering" a thread involves unwinding the stack, or just throwing it out 02:52:42 "the usual cleanup forms will be evaluated" -- SB-THREAD:TERMINATE-THREAD 02:52:54 sykopomp: ask rme about this, he probably knows. 02:53:13 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@203.110.238.16] has joined #lisp 02:53:49 rme: does CCL respect "pending" unwind-protect forms in a thread when it gets killed? 02:54:35 uh, I don't remember right off hand. 02:55:01 testing says "looks like it" 02:55:11 but that's not necessarily the truth :P 02:55:50 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@95.59.95.100] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:56:12 Levenson [n=Levenson@95.59.95.100] has joined #lisp 03:01:22 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:01:56 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:52 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:06:44 a few days ago I was struggling with designing a notification system that shows users messages upon login 03:06:57 turns out a message queue is inevitable 03:07:14 i thought it sounded "enterprisey" and lame at first, but it's just good engineering 03:07:41 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-21.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 03:08:23 defstruct notification (id name recipient-id title body condition ready-callback fire-callback finish-callback) 03:08:41 that's the high level design of it and it's just perfect 03:08:42 lnostdal: functionality like terminate-thread shouldn't be used in the normal course of a program's execution. 03:09:01 perhaps "enterprisey": good ideas (well, sometimes...) implemented poorly 03:09:43 condition is a funcallable lisp expression, and all the callbacks are URLs to webservices, NOT functions! 03:10:03 yeah, pkhuong .. it turns hairy fast .. timeouts and stuff too really 03:10:47 Adlai: see http://ccl.clozure.com/ccl-documentation.html#f_process-reset 03:11:00 -!- no_mind [i=7aa3f9ea@gateway/web/freenode/x-flnrthsunejjxxsv] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 03:11:42 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.214.121] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 03:12:03 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:13:02 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:13:16 mcspiff [n=user@142.177.79.117] has joined #lisp 03:13:47 rme: ah, thanks. I guess I don't know my way around the CCL manual well enough yet. 03:16:28 It's not perfect, but there's some good stuff in it. (there's also some bad stuff, like the chapter on the objective-c bridge, which is woefully outdated.) 03:17:43 Makoryu: Yes. Knuth extolling them, Fran Allen saying that they have held back computer science, just to name two. 03:18:01 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 03:18:13 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["grrr... hald is annoying"] 03:25:31 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:31 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:27:02 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:27:36 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-229-90-190.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:41 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 03:29:06 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@c-69-248-128-195.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:29:44 wgl: are you reading out of order or are you just flying through that book? 03:33:37 minion: memo for wgl: Remember to write a review on Amazon when you're done. ;-) 03:33:37 Remembered. I'll tell wgl when he/she/it next speaks. 03:34:01 gigamonkey: Reading out of order. Started with jwz, then went to Knuth, scanned Fran to reread in detail tomorrow. 03:34:02 wgl, memo from gigamonkey: Remember to write a review on Amazon when you're done. ;-) 03:34:26 Ah. 03:34:48 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.177.79.117] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:34:49 gigamonkey: Several astonishing things already, particularly the depth and insight provided in the knuth interview. 03:35:11 For the rest of the main strong opinions about C you'll need to read Cosell and Thompson. 03:35:24 wgl: Glad you like it! 03:35:28 I would imagine. 03:35:39 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:37 I have two sets of TAOCP--the first I bought when they first came out, and later editions acquired a couple of years ago. And, no, I havent read them cover-to-cover, but have sampled them, in some cases, deeply. 03:36:37 Currently the only review on Amazon describes it as shallow, "Small talk questions and 03:36:38 answers all the way through." 03:36:52 Glad you're seeing it in a different light. 03:37:43 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:51 Hmm. Really not true at all. Knuth's description of Babalonian math and the sanskrit combintorics paper are just priceless, along with his wistful comments about not many doing that these days. 03:39:33 Of course, he himself is the name of a phenomenon. This is the case where a computer scientist thinks he has discovered something, only to find that knuth wrote about it n years before. 03:41:21 So you read the whole Knuth chapter? Then you got to the money line: "I sometimes wonder if *I* can read them." 03:43:16 salva_ [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 03:43:16 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:43:17 -!- salva_ is now known as salva 03:44:44 gigamonkey: Yes, but I think that is his modesty speaking. He writes his code in literate fashion so that he can read it later, and I am certain that is also true of his books. 03:47:09 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:49:13 Well, it's certainly true that he's an extremely modest guy. 03:49:38 gigamonkey: definitely reading out of order. favorites so far are brendan eich and simon pj. can't put my finger on why. also have read norvig, steele, jwz, fitzpatrick and ingalls. hopefully will finish by saturday and blog/amazon review it. 03:50:00 I think it also has to do with his definition of "read" which probably implies a much deeper level of understanding than the average person's "read". 03:50:08 i hope i can get a copy soon. or not only that, but get the time to actually read it. 03:50:09 Yep, particularly since he is the author of one of the 12 most important monographs. 03:50:22 redline6561: Excellent. I'm in dire need of good Amazon reviews at the moment. 03:50:23 gigamonkey: btw nice purple design for the website. :P 03:50:43 felideon: once you open it, you might just find it extremely engaging and hard to put down. 03:50:50 I've been putting it off because I know I won't read it enough yet. Until I've really absorbed some of CLRS and AMOP I'm not sure more is warranted. :) 03:50:56 TAOCP, that is. 03:51:10 *redline6561* seconds felideon 03:51:34 wgl: it also makes schoolwork seem trite and boring. quite a dangerous thing. 03:51:44 felideon: http://twitter.com/elmindreda/statuses/3918368841 03:52:18 redline6561: Yes, as well as everything else I was to be doing this evening. 03:52:49 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@203.110.238.16] has left #lisp 03:53:09 haha funny 03:54:25 ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 03:56:57 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@203.110.238.16] has joined #lisp 04:03:38 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:17 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483AF25.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:04:25 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483AF25.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:51 redblue [i=star@ppp055.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 04:12:19 hey guys 04:12:47 any suggestions for web application development frameworks done in lisp? 04:13:05 just curious what people think might be worth a look at 04:14:01 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:14:39 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@76.104.220.73] has joined #lisp 04:15:01 Hunchentoot, UCW, and Webblocks are all worth looking at 04:15:12 coolness 04:15:16 bookmarking 04:15:29 i am googling just for reference, was curious to hear from a human 04:15:50 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@ipn36372-f96131.cidr.lightship.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:17:08 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 04:17:56 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:18:38 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 04:18:38 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:23:01 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:23:30 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:11 coderdad_ [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:20 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:26:25 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 04:26:40 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:28:01 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-078.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 04:33:29 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:33:35 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-169-81-234.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:47 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:38:29 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:40:31 -!- gko [n=gko@211.22.47.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:41:51 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:43:31 -!- coderdad_ [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:46:46 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey` 04:47:29 coderdad [n=coderdad@72.200.214.240] has joined #lisp 04:48:55 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.163.214.130] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:50:02 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-229-90-190.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:50:39 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-62-75-121.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:56:59 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 04:57:23 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:59:35 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:04:58 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-17.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:06:22 phax [n=psc@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 05:07:08 -!- lemuel [n=user@ppp-70-244-201-131.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:09:05 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:09:36 gonzojive [n=red@DN800cf913.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 05:11:31 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:11:43 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:24 -!- gigamonkey` [n=user@adsl-99-169-81-234.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:16:43 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-0-100.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:01 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:17:17 what is the most portable way to get file timestamps? 05:18:14 In a system dependent fashion? :) 05:18:24 cl-fad and iolib should have a function for that but they don't; time for a patch for either/both? 05:18:56 Possibly -- but you might want to consider the difficulty of getting this right before you get started. 05:19:03 Zhivago: as in "trivial-file-timestamp" or similar community concensus 05:19:07 Demosthenes [n=demo@ipn36372-f96131.cidr.lightship.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:30 Consider SMB timestamping via unix. 05:19:57 A lot of timestamps don't make sense in a lot of places. 05:20:20 Zhivago: #+(and :lw :win32) (win32::get-file-time file) 05:20:55 -!- existentialmonk [n=user@64-148-11-244.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:21:04 FILE-TIMESTAMP-AS-ISO-TIMESTRING then? :-P 05:22:24 fuckit, i will just store the file in a database and use database timestamps which are better time representations than a bignum 05:23:44 btw, little Montezuma rapes CouchDB's search engine :-P 05:24:03 use osicat, call stat 05:24:12 hefner: my man! 05:25:07 i can also wrap osicat:state on win32; done! 05:25:37 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-9-187.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:25:37 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 05:28:04 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@72.200.214.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:28:33 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:01 Yes, I think that's actually a good idea. 05:29:44 If you really care about timestamps in a portable fashion you don't have a large number of alternatives. 05:30:30 all i want is "if this file has been changed since the last time a pdf was generated from it, generate a pdf again" 05:31:15 i solve the most immediate problem first. and if ever need the "general case", i grep ~/hacks and cut and paste .. 05:31:24 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:33 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 05:33:24 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit ["off"] 05:34:39 milanj [n=milan@212.200.194.165] has joined #lisp 05:36:12 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:42:09 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:48:54 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-6-35.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:21 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:39 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:58:20 xan [n=xan@83.232.82.138] has joined #lisp 06:01:47 -!- kidd [n=kidd@80.Red-79-152-42.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 06:03:01 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_printing 06:04:21 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-0-100.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:04:21 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 06:04:38 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:04:42 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:55 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-76-254-48-240.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:07:41 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:09:07 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.194.165] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:12:31 fusss [n=chatzill@60.241.1.206] has joined #lisp 06:13:35 -!- lsk2 [n=lsk2_4@122.116.5.215] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:14:15 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:17:00 eihrul [n=eihrul@ip72-193-224-224.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:22:09 -!- xan [n=xan@83.232.82.138] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:23:10 Colours [n=Colours@unaffiliated/colours] has joined #lisp 06:23:38 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:24:44 TimoT [n=tt@timo.tml.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 06:24:47 morning 06:27:06 ,date 06:27:16 (date) 06:27:19 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:28:19 QinGW: is ,date a scsh/scheme48 repl command? 06:28:30 or postgres? :-D 06:29:13 fusss: would it be a terrible idea to checksum your files instead of checking timestamps? 06:29:15 How to eval expression in here? 06:29:32 aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has joined #lisp 06:29:33 What do you guys use to get both efficient and generic routines in CL (specific case: routine should work with sequences, would be nice to have fast special case for simple-array double-float, single-float, complex) 06:29:41 plops [n=user@pD9E68E87.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:29:48 arbscht: you know .. 06:29:58 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:31:26 (usb8-array-to-base64-string (md5:md5-sum-file file-path)) did it :-) 06:31:29 -!- gonzojive [n=red@DN800cf913.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 06:32:09 sykopomp pasted "parallel prime sieve" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87152 06:32:56 hmmm, why does my project depend on both md5 and ironclad? redundancy department of redundancy; i also discovered i had both drakma and trivial-http used by two different *-RPC packages :-P 06:33:53 sykopomp: where are SEND and SPAWN defined? 06:33:57 sykopomp: how well it does compared to non-parallel? 06:34:07 fusss: in ChanL, i guess 06:34:27 stassats: hell if I know. Probably bloat and performance-shitty. 06:34:43 what is chanl? 06:35:08 fusss: implementation of communicating sequential processes on top of bordeaux-threads. 06:35:22 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:35:32 I started with the available csp lib, but I'm rewriting it from scratch... 06:35:36 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 06:35:55 hello 06:35:57 and where could ChanL be found, besides google, which is currently at FAIL 06:36:19 fusss: http://github.com/sykopomp/chanl 06:36:40 TimoT: If you don't need the modularity that actual generic functions provide, write a function with a dispatching typecase to sub-functions, and make sure to inline that function. If the call sites have sufficient type information, the dispatching is optimized away by sbcl 06:37:15 the version in master is based on 06:37:17 cliki csp 06:37:22 minion: cliki csp 06:37:23 you speak nonsense 06:37:31 minion: csp? 06:37:32 csp: CSP (``communicating sequential processes'') support for Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/csp 06:37:55 got it 06:38:22 -!- Grue` [n=grue@masq.snto-msu.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1"] 06:38:44 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:39:20 tcr: I'm mostly doing that now. However there are some tricky cases, for example the type of an accumulating temporary variable (say in polynomial evaluation). 06:39:38 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 06:40:37 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:40:39 morning 06:42:12 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:44:42 TimoT: Yeah you probably have to declare the type of that variable 06:46:27 ASau [n=user@host224-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 06:48:34 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:50:27 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 06:52:22 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 06:52:45 -!- andrewks [n=aks@ottawa-hs-64-26-167-214.d-ip.magma.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:52:52 jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 06:53:01 nostoi [n=nostoi@22.Red-81-34-97.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:11 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:55:56 good morning 06:56:27 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60.241.1.206] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:56:28 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 06:56:38 lsk2 [n=lsk2_4@122.116.5.215] has joined #lisp 06:58:32 -!- phax [n=psc@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:58:34 angerman [n=angerman@e015.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 06:58:49 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:59:34 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:00:28 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@22.Red-81-34-97.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 07:00:36 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp055.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 07:00:40 cadabra [n=cadabra@c-76-23-34-5.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:01:29 sykopomp: is it supposed to finish in reasonable amount of time? 07:02:24 stassats: it doesn't actually work >_> 07:02:38 ok 07:02:41 I think it -should-, unless I translated it wrong from the newsqueak version. 07:02:45 redblue [i=star@ppp052.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 07:03:14 the point that you don't understand if it should truly work or not perhaps shows the limits of how understandable this mode of concurrency is in practice :) 07:04:44 andrewks [n=aks@ottawa-hs-209-217-123-147.d-ip.magma.ca] has joined #lisp 07:04:51 eihrul: Or maybe I translated a very new concept from a programming language I don't know to a relatively unidiomatic version of another language. 07:04:55 that might be it, too. 07:05:23 time to make a new DSL then? :P 07:05:39 or maybe time to finish the library and make sure things are working properly :) 07:07:52 trebor_dki [n=user@130.83.156.186] has joined #lisp 07:08:48 good morning & happy day in lisp hacking ;) 07:08:53 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:08:54 -!- jdz_ is now known as jdz 07:09:54 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:10:09 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@203.110.238.16] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:10:11 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@203.110.238.16] has joined #lisp 07:11:04 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:13:16 -!- deech` [n=user@24-107-144-116.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:13:27 deech` [n=user@24-107-144-116.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 07:15:04 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:19:46 xan [n=xan@193.173.25.98] has joined #lisp 07:19:46 -!- lsk2 [n=lsk2_4@122.116.5.215] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:20:17 lsk2 [n=lsk2_4@122.116.5.215] has joined #lisp 07:20:47 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@125.236.55.43] has joined #lisp 07:23:09 anyone written a wrapper for libdispatch yet? 07:28:08 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 07:32:40 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:34:59 wow - if you skip the stuff about emacs or C it hardly takes any time to read a non-spam c.l.l. 07:35:24 splittist: bonus points for dumping Xah Lee into your spam folder :) 07:37:03 where can you find a non-spam c.l.l? 07:37:47 I don't see a lot of spam with individual.net 07:38:00 why would they talk about emacs and C in c.l.l.? 07:38:10 cross posting 07:38:13 eihrul: because it's usenet :) 07:38:31 maybe time to switch to some more focused communications medium, like 4chan 07:38:38 google wave 07:40:18 *eihrul* imagines a Kanye pic on 4chan's new CL forum: "Yo, CL, I know you was a good language, but emacs had the best lisp of all time!" 07:41:02 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@c-76-23-34-5.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:41:32 Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:42:01 -!- angerman [n=angerman@e015.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 07:42:21 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:43:30 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:44:58 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 07:46:54 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 07:47:28 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@203.110.238.16] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:48:18 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-nmqzmrfzdsvsyyao] has joined #lisp 07:48:20 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-nmqzmrfzdsvsyyao] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:50:43 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:51:28 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rgvsoownxisvbvrn] has joined #lisp 07:52:05 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:53:22 HET2 [n=diman@81.106.134.194] has joined #lisp 07:54:11 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:55:44 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 07:57:28 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:58:39 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:59:51 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:59:59 _ace4016_ [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:00:26 haha this is through rainer joswig's eclm 2009 report: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Reeperbahn_prostitute_customer.jpg I hope for the guy this is staged 08:01:10 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:02:25 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:03:49 swilde [n=wilde@aktaia.intevation.org] has joined #lisp 08:04:43 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:05:26 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@KD124213182069.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:07:01 -!- _ace4016_ [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:07:12 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:13:52 *: hi. I at the eclm I saw clozure-cl with the cocoa ide running on windows using cocotron, and asking I was told that it should work on GNU/Linux, too. But I wasn't able to find any hints on the net how to use ccl with GNUstep or Cocotron. Simply evaluating (require 'cocoa) gives me `Error: Unknown foreign type: :OBJC_OBJECT' on 32bit x86 GNU/Linux with ccl 1.3-r11936 and 1.3-r12839M 08:13:53 08:14:38 How can I get cocoa with ccl on GNU/Linux? 08:14:44 euhm 08:14:52 isn't cocoa for OSX only? 08:14:53 cocotron doesn't fully work on linux, afaik 08:15:12 cocotron, great name. 08:15:28 swilde: try asking at #ccl 08:15:42 freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 08:19:10 stassats`: Thanks for the hint -- I will 08:21:55 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-078.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:24:18 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-078.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 08:25:11 Good morning everyone. 08:25:57 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 08:29:23 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:35:14 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:35:44 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:36:15 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:37:36 -!- spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:38:30 spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 08:38:38 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:41:10 -!- thunk_ [n=user@96-28-114-9.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:44:16 hello spiaggia 08:49:29 hugod_ [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442325.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 08:51:52 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:52:54 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-078.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:53:05 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-078.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 08:53:58 -!- HET2 [n=diman@81.106.134.194] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:57:10 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279634139.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:57:10 -!- hugod_ is now known as hugod 08:58:48 Hazelesque [n=hazel@pc222.mcs.le.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:00:07 -!- view [n=view@211.144.103.69] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:01:51 Whose name have I misspelled? http://blog.splittist.com/2009/09/16/eclm09-report/ 09:01:54 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@125.236.55.43] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:02:36 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:04:07 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 09:05:33 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:06:47 rdd` [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:11:19 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229085165.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:14:04 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 09:15:05 weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:18:18 attila_lendvai: man, thanks for your answers on cl-perec-devel :-) 09:18:36 Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 09:18:51 attila_lendvai: having another quick question, I thought I'd bother you on the IRC: is there a way to "upgrade" the database manually after I redefined some classes? 09:19:23 (cl-perec does this automagically when I instantiate objects, but I want to know if I can do it manually) 09:19:59 hey, anyone with amd64 linux and gcc 4.4.1 can share me their crt?.o files? 09:20:12 because i hosed my compiler and can't find any binaries for this version 09:22:49 angerman [n=angerman@c110.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 09:24:02 mishoo: of course. perec uses sql reflection to see if the db is what it would like it to be. if not, then starts issuing alter statements... also signals conditions, so on production systems you can install handlers that abort in case of such alters when the app is started non-interactively 09:24:57 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 09:25:21 spilman [n=spilman@92.135.215.136] has joined #lisp 09:28:32 tau [n=Erdos@189.127.58.96] has joined #lisp 09:28:34 attila_lendvai: I know and this happens automatically; but is there a way to say, e.g. (fix-db-schema 'foo 'bar) (where foo and bar are persistent classes)? 09:28:52 -!- tau is now known as asfsdf 09:28:59 -!- asfsdf is now known as Tau 09:30:02 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483AF25.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:30:18 mishoo: look for export-to-rdbms. we will move a function called export-model to perec soonish, it takes care of calling e-t-r on everything interesting 09:31:15 you can find it here: http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi/darcsweb.cgi?r=cl-dwim-cl-dwim;a=headblob;f=/meta-model/model.lisp 09:33:52 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-11-56.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:35:23 attila_lendvai: yep, found it, works, thanks! :-) 09:37:15 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6FC0E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:48:23 -!- lsk2 [n=lsk2_4@122.116.5.215] has quit [""] 09:48:32 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-134-31.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:50:53 HET2 [n=diman@131.251.176.98] has joined #lisp 09:53:01 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:58:25 -!- plops [n=user@pD9E68E87.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:00:29 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 10:00:35 -!- Tau [n=Erdos@189.127.58.96] has quit ["Saindo"] 10:02:07 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@78-69-144-82-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:04:09 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:05:08 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:10:06 -!- angerman [n=angerman@c110.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 10:11:30 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:18:48 splittist: ping 10:19:09 pong ! 10:19:30 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 10:20:18 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@89-180-191-26.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 10:21:27 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:23:31 htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.224.39] has joined #lisp 10:24:19 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-114.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:25:56 fe[nl]ix: pong 10:27:24 -!- aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has quit ["KVIrc 3.2.6 Anomalies http://www.kvirc.net/"] 10:28:38 benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-124-177-162-112.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:29:26 Aszarsha [n=aszarsha@83-154-175-47.rev.libertysurf.net] has joined #lisp 10:32:13 splittist: are you in one of the photos at http://www.cl-http.org:8002/pics/ECLM2009 ? 10:33:14 vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@80.70.6.26] has joined #lisp 10:34:35 fe[nl]ix: splittist was in front of you at the bar sunday evening. 10:35:10 tltstc [n=tltstc@76.90.95.39] has joined #lisp 10:35:12 fe[nl]ix: he was The Lawyer (cue dramatic music) 10:36:39 s/dramatic/spooky/ 10:36:39 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 10:38:05 ISTR some comment along the lines of "yeah, but he's a Lisp-using lawyer; how evil can he be?" 10:38:15 OMG 10:38:25 :-) 10:38:44 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:38:58 -!- benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-124-177-162-112.qld.bigpond.net.au] has left #lisp 10:39:01 fe[nl]ix: I'm in picture 7 grinning maniacly 10:39:10 s/maniacly/maniacally/ 10:40:28 ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 10:40:36 *Master-Luis* is in picture 30 needing a haircut. 10:40:53 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:41:02 that reminds me that I must ask Antonio Leitão to add an IRC nick field to the subscription form of the next ELS 10:41:20 António :) 10:41:27 soory 10:42:04 need coffee 10:42:13 minion: chant! 10:42:13 MORE FOCUSED 10:43:30 fe[nl]ix: ...or people could just use their names on irc. i wonder why it is so rare... 10:44:14 that would be too banal 10:44:20 and subject to collisions 10:44:37 like nicks aren't... :) 10:44:52 I was very surprised to learn that John Q. Splittist is not splittist's real name. :) 10:46:30 :P 10:49:24 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:50:39 merus [n=merus@pal-161-218.itap.purdue.edu] has joined #lisp 10:52:08 angerman [n=angerman@e123.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 10:53:54 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D9B2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:30 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:22 splittist` [n=dmurray@85.5.55.63] has joined #lisp 11:03:23 -!- TimoT [n=tt@timo.tml.hut.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:03:24 re 11:04:10 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-134-31.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 11:04:46 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:04:49 ska [n=user@203.146.146.170] has joined #lisp 11:06:37 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:09:56 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 11:09:59 -!- splittist` is now known as splittist 11:10:06 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:13:47 -!- ska [n=user@203.146.146.170] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:14:00 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:40 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.224.39] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:18:29 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@ipn36372-f96131.cidr.lightship.net] has quit ["leaving"] 11:22:05 blandest [n=user@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 11:28:20 -!- angerman [n=angerman@e123.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 11:29:25 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 11:29:29 hello. one question about mapcar vs mapcan. as far as i understand, mapcan uses nconc on the result of the function. so if i do use (list ) like in (mapcan (lambda (a) (when (> a 2) (list a))) (list 1 2 3)) there is no difference to (remove nil (mapcar (lambda (a) (when (> a 2) a)) (list 1 2 3)) regarding to destructivenes on the provided lists or its content? 11:29:34 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rgvsoownxisvbvrn] has left #lisp 11:30:18 what? 11:30:35 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@85.5.55.63] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:30:53 "regarding to destructivenes on the provided lists or its content" doesn't quite parse for me 11:31:09 neither is destructive on their argument lists 11:31:48 neither is destructive on the elements of their argument lists _unless_ you return an element from the mapping function in mapcan 11:32:03 eg. (mapcan #'identity ...) 11:33:21 so if the mapping function returns (list ), everything is fine, right? 11:34:07 yes 11:34:10 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:35:14 thank you 11:36:14 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:36:56 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 11:38:44 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:39:35 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-136.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:41:44 angerman [n=angerman@e130.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 11:43:46 -!- angerman [n=angerman@e130.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [Client Quit] 11:46:10 attila_lendvai: you guys use (SETF SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS) -- which qualifiers do you use? 11:46:27 arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 11:47:19 nikodemus: ((class persistent-class) (instance persistent-object) (slot persistent-effective-slot-definition-d)) 11:47:59 err, that's a reader... but the writer is same 11:48:46 nikodemus: in wui: (setf slot-value-using-class) :after (child (class component-class) (parent component) (slot component-effective-slot-definition)) 11:49:04 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 11:50:26 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:54:35 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-114.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:54:47 angerman [n=angerman@d225.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 11:55:47 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 11:57:56 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.219.235] has joined #lisp 11:59:06 attila_lendvai: is there some hook I can use to catch the moment when an object is UPDATEd in the DB? 12:00:02 mishoo: see transaction.lisp for some hooks 12:00:22 mishoo: before-committing-instance, and after-instance-committed 12:00:32 *attila_lendvai* is afk for lunch 12:00:42 coliv [n=Coliveir@c-69-248-128-195.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:00:52 great, thanks 12:00:56 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:01:17 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:11 so primary and :after methods? 12:07:54 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:13:40 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:00 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:16:12 jkantz_ [n=jkantz@c-66-31-31-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:05 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 12:18:20 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:19:44 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:21:15 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:21:37 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-114.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:21:52 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-114.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:22:49 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:23:20 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-114.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:25:05 -!- angerman [n=angerman@d225.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 12:25:13 the AMD64 binary download on www.sbcl.org doesn't go where i expect, and it's not clear what's going on 12:25:21 the x86 one works as i expect, though 12:25:28 should i send an email about it? 12:27:26 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:28:23 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:28:54 please 12:30:14 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:17 *nikodemus* swears at darcs 12:33:11 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 12:36:07 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-81-234.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:36:38 Morning. 12:36:57 hi gigamonkey 12:37:04 nikodemus: what happened ? 12:37:50 lispm [n=joswig@f054052235.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:39:00 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:39:01 i just can't use it 12:39:11 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 12:39:17 see alexandria-devel 12:39:42 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:39:48 coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has joined #lisp 12:40:04 since alexandria is the only project i work on that uses darcs, my attempts to get things done there are continually foiled by my inability to drive darcs properly 12:40:34 import it into git and let the upstream devs handle it 12:40:35 :] 12:40:47 manuel_: i'm the upstream dev, so... 12:40:50 hahaha 12:40:51 oh 12:40:57 well then, convert it to something else? :] 12:41:22 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 12:41:28 nikodemus: http://git.sanityinc.com/darcs-to-git.git works very well 12:41:29 just posted a suggestion to that effect on alexandria-devel -- i'm not the only dev, though 12:41:45 fe[nl]ix: 404 12:41:58 nikodemus: that's the clone url 12:42:06 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:42:07 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@78-69-144-82-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:42:31 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has joined #lisp 12:42:56 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-114.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:43:26 fe[nl]ix: can it push to darcs? 12:44:09 no, it's just a one-way converter 12:44:27 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-114.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:45:13 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:27 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:55 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32F8B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:00 nikodemus: i cannot see your mail yet, but i'm interested in what is the source of the headache... the only issue i ever had with darcs is the exponential algorithm in darcs1 repos in case of nested conflicts. but darcs1 is the past (alex. is darcs1, though) 12:52:33 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-11-56.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:53:08 http://mark.stosberg.com/blog/2008/10/darcs-2-a-major-update.html 12:53:12 attila_lendvai: i just don't use it enough 12:53:57 so i find myself struggling to do the simplest things whenever i have a short while to spend on alexandria 12:54:13 like the MEDIAN fix on the list 12:54:58 well, whatsnew, record, push. maybe amend if you want to change a local patch that haven't left your repo yet (because amend creates a brand new patch identity). and that's about it... 12:55:32 i gave up on it for today since i (1) discovered i had bunch of local changes in my treee -- ok, i can copy the tree and revert & pull (2) the pull goes to tcr's tree, not the official one 12:55:44 at this point my 15 minute timeout is reached 12:55:45 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@c-69-248-128-195.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:56:21 (i spend first a while looking at changes at step #1, so it's not all about my inability to drive darcs) 12:56:27 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 12:57:00 nikodemus: for the record, darcs record is interactive, so you can skip the nonrelevant changes. and darcs pull tab-completes on bash if you have the darcs debian package installed (lists the repo urls where you've ever made a successful pull from) 12:57:18 i know -- but i am baffled by the options it offers me 12:57:21 well, i was stating the obvious i guess... 12:57:39 sometimes i guess, but that's not too good... 12:57:54 nikodemus: darcs is fine. 12:58:03 nikodemus: i'm very sure about it. 12:58:06 as far as i can see the issue, you don't need to use any options for this... 12:58:10 i'm sure about it too 12:58:22 i'm also sure that i don't know how to use it 12:58:32 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:58:33 nikodemus: i advise you to handle the problem when your mind is inert to read some darcs manual. 12:58:40 and i'm not sure if the time i'm spending on alexandria will allow me to use it 12:58:45 i'm just genuinely surprised, because if darcs is good at something, then it is its smooth gui 12:59:02 gui? 12:59:02 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:59:04 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 12:59:06 gui? 12:59:13 i think there's no need to read the darcs manual... 12:59:20 well, s/gui/UI/ 12:59:28 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 12:59:52 'morning. 13:00:09 i think the problem is just that i don't use it enough to properly learn the basics 13:00:25 and i don't see how to fix that in the time allotted right now :/ 13:00:42 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:00:48 (certainly not by bitching on irc, though...) 13:01:09 nikodemus: you'r on the right way. 13:01:56 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:02:09 but i'm 90% certain i would have gotten more stuff done on alexandria over the last 3 months if it was just tarballs and patches -- or any vcs i _know_ how to use 13:02:28 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 13:03:06 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:19 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.141.228.137] has joined #lisp 13:04:02 Ah phooey. SBCL's who-calls seems to get faked out by inline functions. 13:05:18 dlowe [n=dlowe@63.107.91.99] has joined #lisp 13:05:54 gigamonkey: what does it do, and what do you want it to do? 13:07:42 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:08:33 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:08:47 It seems to not list FOO as being called BAR if FOO is declared inline. 13:08:48 phf [n=user@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 13:08:50 I'd like it to list it. 13:09:11 I want to know where in the source there's a call; not where in the compiled code. 13:09:15 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:09:23 I realize in other circumstances, other folks might want the opposite. 13:09:39 Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what's going on. 13:09:49 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:06 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:11:16 nikodemus pasted "who-calls -- seems to work the way you want" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87161 13:11:27 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 13:11:41 gigamonkey: are you sure you're using who-calls and not list-callees? 13:12:15 nikodemus: hmmm. Let me check. 13:12:56 kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:03 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-166.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:16:03 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 13:16:59 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@90.149.117.111] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:17:51 Nope. who-calls. And I've recreated your test so it's not just the inline declamation. 13:18:35 i would be interested in a test-case... it doesn't matter if it's huge 13:18:44 because that sounds like a bug 13:18:47 But somehow I'm getting NIL back from who-calls from a function that is called in the source. 13:18:52 Do you have cl-ppcre? 13:18:56 sure 13:19:03 do a who-calls on cl-ppcre::try-number 13:19:42 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-1-29.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:49 no references found... 13:20:14 Now look in parser.lisp 13:20:27 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp052.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:20:57 aha, i think i know 13:21:01 thunk_ [n=user@96-28-114-9.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 13:21:08 nikodemus: so, should i apply/push that median patch from the alex. list meanwhile? 13:21:10 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.164.103] has joined #lisp 13:21:34 hm, no 13:22:03 ok 13:22:06 attila_lendvai: on the first blush it looked right to me -- i meant to double check after merging it 13:22:25 "hm, no" was to "aha, i think i know" :) 13:22:45 so feel free to go ahead on the median... 13:23:10 coliv [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has joined #lisp 13:25:15 Coliveira [n=Coliveir@173.12.30.65] has joined #lisp 13:25:58 well, it didn't break the other median tests 13:26:03 i record and push 13:26:05 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:31 arquebus [n=sdf@201.139.156.133.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #lisp 13:26:38 reprore_ [n=reprore@116.82.73.92] has joined #lisp 13:26:48 -!- Coliveira [n=Coliveir@173.12.30.65] has quit [Client Quit] 13:29:43 -!- kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:30:22 redblue [i=star@ppp151.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:30:46 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Verlassend"] 13:30:56 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:31:23 -!- arquebus [n=sdf@201.139.156.133.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has left #lisp 13:31:49 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:31:56 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 13:31:56 gigamonkey: it seems xref is foiled by inlined function with hairly lambda-lists 13:32:08 emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-11-230.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:32:12 i think this should not be too hard to fix 13:32:21 nikodemus: cool. 13:33:14 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:34:14 What is the canonical way to save-lisp-and-die an sbcl core from slime? i've tried adding (lambda () (mapc #'sb-thread:terminate-thread (delete sb-thread:*current-thread* (sb-thread:list-all-threads)))) to sb-ext:*save-hooks* but that seems to kill the thread that needs to do the saving... 13:34:56 -!- younder [n=jthing@251.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 13:35:16 emacs-dwim: i don't recommend doing it from slime. there's too much state going on. 13:35:37 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 13:37:11 Isn't there a swank shutdown function? In anycase something like: (when (zerop (posix:fork)) (shutdown-whatever-needs-to-be-shut-down) (ext:save-lisp-and-die)) 13:40:58 phax [n=psc@207-229-157-200.mart-bsr1.chi-mart.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:41:12 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@95.59.95.100] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:41:44 emacs-dwim: i almost always have a lisp file that I --load that initializes the minimum state i need and immediately saves the core. 13:42:00 Levenson [n=Levenson@95.59.95.100] has joined #lisp 13:43:25 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:43:25 milanj [n=milan@77.46.225.180] has joined #lisp 13:43:28 -!- vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@80.70.6.26] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:43:46 So the question is, if I'm going to write a book about the innards of cl-ppcre, should I do it as a explanation cum critque of the code as is. Or should I send Edi a bunch of patches first to make it easier to explain. 13:44:13 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:44:19 -!- bill-hager [n=hager@c-98-231-14-62.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:44:48 patches that improve are always welcome. period. 13:47:09 Xach, matimago: thanks 13:47:47 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:48:00 emacs-dwim: i use sth like: #+sbcl (progn (mapcar #'(lambda (x) (swank::close-connection x nil nil)) swank::*connections*) (dolist (thread (remove (swank::current-thread) (swank::all-threads))) (swank::kill-thread thread)) (sleep 1) (sb-ext::save-lisp-and-die fname :executable t)) 13:48:34 weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 13:48:40 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 13:50:40 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 13:51:21 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-104-153.lns10.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:42 *Xach* is pleased his new wigflip colo box compiles sbcl in almost 5 minutes flat 13:53:09 -!- deech` [n=user@24-107-144-116.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:53:26 deech` [n=user@24-107-144-116.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:55:20 gigamonkey: if they improve performance at the same time. Otherwise, it would be perfectly good to present first an understandable version, and then to present the actual, optimized code. 13:56:03 This is often done in lisp (and scheme) literature to present various iterations of the code. 13:56:04 matimago: presumably performance only has to be >= not strictly > 13:56:17 gigamonkey: yes. 13:56:37 So I can't help but wonder what Fran Allen thinks of Fortress. 13:57:39 -!- HET2 [n=diman@131.251.176.98] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:57:52 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:57:58 gigamonkey pasted "What Fran Allen thinks of Fortress" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87164 13:58:08 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 13:58:11 hah 13:58:35 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-136.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:00:30 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:02:13 trebor_dki: like my first attempt, that never outputs the fname.core file; btw, how's werdna these days? 14:03:07 emacs-dwim: here it works fine. shuts down all threads except one and saves a core file. 14:03:33 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:03:35 *trebor_dki* testig 14:04:36 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:05:14 angerman [n=angerman@d230.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:08:41 hm. emacs-dwim you are right, it does not work anymore (it did some months ago). 14:10:47 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:59 I suspect she might like the direction that it seems to be going. 14:11:10 a different problem i'm having: sbcl don't know how to require anything; however it does from slime -- just not when run as "sbcl --load fname.lisp" 14:11:14 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-109-210.lns10.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:11:55 emacs-dwim: you must require asdf first if you want to use require instead of asdf:oos 14:13:02 ruepel0r [n=rue@p4FCE29CD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:13:17 "don't know how to require asdf" 14:13:31 your installation is broken, it seems 14:13:40 Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:05 possibly you are installed in a non-standard location and SBCL_HOME is either not set 14:14:16 or is just wrong 14:16:08 emacs-dwim: see Finding Ancilliary Files in the INSTALL file that comes with SBCL 14:16:32 nikodemus pasted "here" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87165 14:17:33 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 14:20:51 thanks, it's workiing now. Should have been using "clbuild --implementation sbcl lisp $@" 14:21:33 clbuild: clc for the new decade? 14:23:31 Geralt [n=Geralt@91.50.248.185] has joined #lisp 14:24:34 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-21.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:24:45 spacebat [n=akhasha@118.210.86.246] has joined #lisp 14:25:26 HG` [n=HG@xdsleg215.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:25:53 xach: yes, it seems the easiest way to get a current set of sources built/updated; rarely i still have to use asdf-install for a package not-yet-supported by clbuild. 14:28:55 nikodemus: yes it seems i had symlinks to sbcl and sbcl.core but SBCL_HOME did not point to the contribs. slime worked because i had it set to find them using clbuild. thanks. 14:30:22 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-156-55.51-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 14:31:46 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88.149.209.235] has joined #lisp 14:32:07 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:32:20 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:32:50 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.225.180] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:34:56 vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 14:34:59 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:04 -!- ASau [n=user@host224-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 14:36:06 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-30-156.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 14:37:14 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:38:44 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1"] 14:40:30 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-17.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:30 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-9-78.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:09 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:43:18 mcspiff [n=user@DE998.VPN.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 14:46:07 KingNatoG5__ [n=patrik@84-217-9-214.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:11 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-104-153.lns10.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:48:55 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:04 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdsleg215.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:49:16 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:49:29 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:49:41 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 14:51:34 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:51:37 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-13-241.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:51:48 Xach: did you move to Emacs 23? 14:51:58 -!- angerman [n=angerman@d230.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 14:52:27 mcspiff` [n=user@DE998.VPN.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 14:52:28 leo2007: i now use Emacs 23 14:52:59 -!- mcspiff [n=user@DE998.VPN.Dal.Ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:53:19 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 14:54:35 -!- mcspiff` is now known as mcspiff 14:54:37 -!- mcspiff [n=user@DE998.VPN.Dal.Ca] has quit [Client Quit] 14:54:50 Xach: cocoa ns port? 14:55:09 oh, that. no, i haven't gotten it working properly on my mac laptop yet. 14:55:17 mcspiff [n=user@DE998.VPN.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 14:56:40 milanj [n=milan@77.46.225.180] has joined #lisp 14:56:52 -!- xan [n=xan@193.173.25.98] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:57:05 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.163.214.130] has joined #lisp 14:57:23 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:35 Xach: so with X11? 14:58:10 leo2007: i haven't spent any time working on it. 14:58:23 ok 14:58:25 hmm 14:58:27 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-6-35.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:58:39 pepone [n=pepone@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 14:58:52 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:00:59 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has left #lisp 15:01:31 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 15:01:39 -!- KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-9-78.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:03:26 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:03:42 -!- merus [n=merus@pal-161-218.itap.purdue.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:06:25 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:07:31 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-156-55.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 15:07:41 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit ["reboot emacs"] 15:08:01 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:08:40 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 15:09:50 -!- mcspiff [n=user@DE998.VPN.Dal.Ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:10:03 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:10:55 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 15:11:27 mcspiff [n=user@DE998.VPN.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 15:12:01 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-22.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:12:49 How to get documentation string on functions and variables on slime + CCL? 15:13:10 isn't C-c C-d d working? 15:13:47 it isn't.. 15:13:52 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:15:09 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:17:31 M-x slime-documentation should 15:18:29 CCL describe doesn't seem to show the docstring. 15:18:51 well, it doesn't look very useful, though, doesn't tell which one is for function, which for variable 15:19:23 (that's fixable) 15:20:14 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:19 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:21:57 -!- vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:22:07 lexa_ [n=lexa_@83.222.5.112] has joined #lisp 15:22:35 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest72122 15:22:54 I think you should also tell the ccl guys 15:22:59 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 15:23:23 milanj- [n=milan@93.87.192.139] has joined #lisp 15:23:53 -!- Guest72122 [n=lexa_@83.222.5.112] has left #lisp 15:24:21 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:25:21 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:26:40 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 15:26:47 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 15:26:53 are the channel logs available somewhere ? 15:27:00 minion: logs 15:27:01 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 15:27:21 thanks 15:27:51 xach: did you build emacs 23 from source, or use a package? 15:27:56 rpg [n=rpg@dhcp-91-035.inf.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:28:13 wgl: I don't really want to talk about that right now. 15:28:21 *Xach* has context switched 15:28:49 cagonto [n=n@169.230.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:28:50 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 15:28:53 online boxing game http://www.kobox.org/kobox-fande-Nourine.html 15:28:55 -!- cagonto [n=n@169.230.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has left #lisp 15:29:02 I'm reading through CCL describe. Describe looks like it's printing lines gotten from inspect an object. I don't know if the inspector should yield docstrings. 15:29:18 s/inspect an/inspecting an/ 15:29:24 (describe #'foo) shows dosctring 15:29:40 Hmmm. Lemme try. 15:30:25 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@71-34-77-216.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:30:39 Ok. Why does CCL need the symbol-function read macro to do that? 15:30:45 ruediger [n=ruediger@93-82-15-141.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:30:48 SBCL doesn't 15:31:04 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.225.180] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:31:14 it doesn't require a reader macro 15:31:22 #' 15:31:29 you can happily do with (describe (function foo)) 15:31:34 -!- blandest [n=user@85.204.33.242] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:31:48 SBCL permits (describe 'foo) 15:32:11 ccl permits to 15:32:14 o 15:32:30 But doesn't give the docstring. 15:32:38 well, that's how it implemented 15:32:39 Hang a sec. 15:32:58 you can d o 15:33:07 you can do with describe whatever you want 15:33:13 caoliver: the details of DESCRIBE are not described in the standard. 15:33:23 caoliver: some implementations go into lots of detail, some into less detail 15:34:09 I'm noticing. SBCL blurts out lots of docs for (describe 'fnord), but not so much for (describe #'fnord). 15:34:47 Maybe the better part of valor is to hack the handling of C-c C-d d for CCL. 15:34:55 well, because with function as an argument it is more narrowed 15:34:57 Symbols are generally more interesting than function objects. 15:35:07 Since symbols are used to name lots of things. 15:35:07 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:35:18 caoliver: No it's a CCL thing 15:35:25 caoliver: as i said before, slime-documentation does show you documentation 15:35:46 after a second i'll commit more readable output for it 15:37:08 I still think CCL's describe output should be improved. 15:37:26 Agree. 15:39:30 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #lisp 15:40:14 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:40:25 stassats: slime-documentation does not output doc for functions 15:40:30 in CCL 15:40:31 it does 15:40:55 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 15:41:45 Hey we're at 500 euros now, better start stalking the sbcl mailinglist :) http://aerique.blogspot.com/2009/09/paying-for-threading-support-for-sbcl.html#comments 15:42:30 stassats: it failed on a function like (defun kkk () "Haha") 15:42:46 well, because this function doesn't have a docstring 15:43:12 ok 15:43:26 do you see why? 15:43:37 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:43:53 more or less, it becomes a function with ".." as the body 15:44:05 right 15:44:37 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 15:45:51 It does seem to me that sbcl integrates with SLIME better. I used to use C-c C-d d on both functions and variables. 15:45:57 jumped [n=spranger@91.90.15.36] has joined #lisp 15:47:14 C-c C-d d just calls describe, nothing fancy 15:48:19 but with sbcl it outputs the doc string right? 15:48:20 -!- jumped [n=spranger@91.90.15.36] has quit [] 15:48:22 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-81-234.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:48:43 well, slime has nothing to do with this 15:49:27 As someone above pointed out, describe's function is somewhat ambiguously specd. 15:49:40 Someone ::= xach 15:49:45 mstevens [n=mstevens@193.227.111.165] has joined #lisp 15:49:50 i checked in my changes to slime-documentation, wait for it arrival to the public repo 15:50:36 roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 15:50:56 caoliver and stassats: thank you. 15:51:44 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@95.59.95.100] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:52:27 caoliver: The ccl guys usually hang out in #ccl. 15:53:01 Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.74.92] has joined #lisp 15:53:23 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:28 tcr: tnx. 15:55:35 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:56:02 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:56:26 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 15:58:45 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@93-82-15-141.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:58:55 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 15:58:59 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:51 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:01:17 -!- jkantz_ [n=jkantz@c-66-31-31-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:01:26 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 16:03:02 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 16:03:55 ejs [n=eugen@91.90.9.206] has joined #lisp 16:04:04 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 16:04:49 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 16:05:07 -!- qebab [i=finnrobi@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:05:54 minion: what ever happened to the tunes project 16:05:55 a banana 16:06:11 minion: a banana? 16:06:12 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 16:06:21 angerman [n=angerman@a065.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 16:08:16 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 16:08:22 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:09:37 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:10:09 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 16:11:00 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:11:34 using oracle is 'gay' i repeat using 'oracle' is gay. for the records. 16:11:34 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 16:13:58 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:15:20 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 16:15:33 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:16:28 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:17:17 Using "gay" as an insult is so black. High-five! 16:17:58 He is just overjoyed to use oracle. 16:18:12 He has a gay old time with it. 16:18:51 :)) 16:18:58 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@76.104.220.73] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 16:19:00 im happy that you share my thoughts:) 16:19:55 Makoryu: lolz 16:20:30 wonders why reddit is down. 16:20:50 it's not down 16:21:04 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-114.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:21:12 fe[nl]ix: hm, i'm having troubles 16:22:52 -!- mcspiff [n=user@DE998.VPN.Dal.Ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:26:59 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-28-236.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:05 <_3b> is there a sequence or list equivalent of string-right-trim? 16:28:40 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@p4FCE29CD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:28:44 _3b: what do you mean? 16:28:51 didnt make sense. 16:29:10 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442325.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 16:29:35 you can (reverse (remove.. (reverse your-list))) 16:29:48 <_3b> remove would remove from anywhere in the list, wouldn 16:29:59 <_3b> 't it? 16:30:00 it just removes first match afaiknow. 16:30:14 remove-if to remove all matches. 16:30:46 wrong 16:30:50 or reduce with (lambda (acc a) (if (predicate a) (cons a acc) acc)) 16:31:13 i wish we have an evaluating bot, do we have one here? 16:31:25 i wish we haven't 16:31:31 why not? 16:31:32 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:31:39 too much noise 16:31:51 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B201.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:54 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 16:32:43 you are too convervative for me. 16:33:08 hah! s/convervative/concer.. 16:34:22 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:34:53 as a homosexual who doesn't use oracle, I vaguely resent that 16:35:15 Homosexuals can be gay too, if they want. 16:35:37 levy_ [n=levy@apn-94-44-13-232.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 16:35:40 rsynnott_: he was surely referring to the merriness of using Oracle 16:35:48 hail 16:35:54 hi levy_ 16:35:55 oh, so it's an insult to the intelligence 16:36:07 -!- angerman [n=angerman@a065.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 16:36:07 this is getting interesting. 16:36:17 (it's the second most awful db I've ever used, after bloody Ingres) 16:36:20 <_3b> s/interesting/off topic/ 16:36:38 _3b: right could you give the details? 16:37:00 <_3b> v0|d: of being on-topic? 16:37:07 nice. 16:38:19 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:40:28 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:40:59 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:17 from http://www.psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/chapter22.html , does sbcl have a watch tool? 16:41:54 jte [n=jensteic@p548EFDFA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:59 don't think so 16:42:06 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:42:11 htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.224.39] has joined #lisp 16:42:26 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 16:42:46 -!- emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-11-230.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:43:33 lichtblau [n=user@host80-61-static.75-81-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:45:50 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:45:50 loves oracles constantly dieing web servers at www.oracle.com 16:46:23 tcr pasted "sequence-right-trim" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87171 16:47:06 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host130.190-137-242.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 16:47:11 i would named that as a filter-bag 16:48:12 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:28 To confuse people? 16:48:49 yes it would not be a named function since it's ust a filter. 16:49:05 It's not, genius. 16:49:41 try adding r and l suffixes to the end for right and left folding. implement right fold as reverse of left fold. 16:50:59 *_3b* wonders where the other half of v0|d's conversation is 16:51:31 in the void 16:52:16 <_3b> tcr: thanks, that should work 16:52:41 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:53:16 <_3b> tcr: hmm, except possibly the case where there is nothing else in the sequence 16:53:41 v0|d annotated #87171 "here" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87171#1 16:53:43 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-28-236.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:29 v0|d: How's the weather there? 16:54:39 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-28-236.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:54:52 -!- slyrus__ is now known as slyrus_ 16:54:55 Makoryu: feels like we'r entering into the winter. 16:55:00 <_3b> v0|d: you forgot a reverse didn't you? and why reverse a vector twice instead of implementing it directly? also, filter sounds like it would do what remove does 16:55:08 v0|d: Pretty cold, then, huh? 16:55:20 v0|d: Might say you're lacking for warmth? 16:55:27 _3b: when you have continuations, i wont be slow. 16:55:29 -!- rpg [n=rpg@dhcp-91-035.inf.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:55:32 v0|d: Might you even say you're.... freezing? 16:55:33 <_3b> v0|d: also, why abbreviate left and right for no reason? 16:55:34 _3b: ie lazy lists. 16:55:51 <_3b> v0|d: and when i don't? ie now 16:56:27 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 16:57:17 _3b: you are of course free to do along with your will. 16:58:02 Makoryu: why freezing? 16:58:13 v0|d: I... can't imagine. 16:58:17 *Makoryu* puts on sunglasses 16:58:23 haha! 16:59:34 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@116.82.73.92] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:00:00 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host254.190-228-247.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:01:05 piso [n=peter@98.176.76.28] has joined #lisp 17:01:13 _3b annotated #87171 "trim entire sequence" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87171#2 17:01:31 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:01:59 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:02:32 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:03:46 or just (subseq sequence 0 (if pos (1+ pos) 0)) 17:04:09 <_3b> true 17:04:12 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:05:00 <_3b> or even (1+ (or pos -1)) 17:05:19 <_3b> though that might be a bit less clear 17:08:23 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:08:48 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 17:12:21 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:12:55 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 17:13:46 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:14:56 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 17:15:20 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.141.228.137] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:16:13 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:16:40 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:16:54 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-71-2.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 17:18:23 v0|d: a guarded evaluator first, then a bot. 17:18:38 wchogg [n=wchogg@host-240-177.pubnet.pdx.edu] has joined #lisp 17:18:50 fxr: i can implement that guard. 17:19:04 fxr: fisrt i'll start with allowed operator list 17:19:10 fxr: then we'll hack into it. 17:19:37 package check would be easy. 17:19:55 maybe a ppcre matcher over operator symbols. 17:20:11 v0|d: lunch time..brb 17:20:58 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.218.80] has joined #lisp 17:21:43 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:21:48 there will be no evaluator bot here. 17:21:53 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:21 drewc: beacuse nobody writes one? 17:22:22 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:22:26 with everyone trying to oversmart guarded evaluator it'll be a nightmare 17:22:42 stassats: that's a very challenging point. 17:22:46 drewc: hah, who are you? 17:23:02 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o drewc 17:23:06 the king of the bongo? 17:23:25 fxr: one of those who gets to choose what bots can stay here. 17:23:48 witness #haskell if you doubt that people will poke and prod the evalbot every 90 seconds 17:24:08 That's why minion is so mean to people. 17:24:11 <_3b> v0|d there was one, it was asked to leave 17:24:24 fxr: there has been a long-standing agreement that an evalbot is a bad idea... people have tried, and we hated it. 17:24:33 minion: Have you stopped being mean to people yet? 17:24:33 istr having stopped being mean to people yet iirc 17:24:47 drewc: cool 17:25:09 Cruel gibberish is all it produces :( 17:25:12 <_3b> feel free to put one in another channel though 17:25:21 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o drewc 17:26:16 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 17:26:57 Zhivago: that's funny 17:27:16 you called a lisp program that results in lisp -> gibberrish? 17:27:52 Where did I do that? 17:27:57 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:28:11 why do you think bot produces garbage? 17:28:27 Hmm, another subliterate has breached the gates ... 17:28:46 angerman [n=angerman@c088.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 17:29:49 _3b: Uh (subseq sequence 0 0)? 17:30:06 tcr: to return the same type 17:30:17 <_3b> right 17:30:27 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@193.227.111.165] has quit ["leaving"] 17:31:10 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:31:38 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 17:32:27 Oh right I took it as position-if in that case 17:32:40 plops [n=user@pD9E68E87.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:32:45 -!- angerman [n=angerman@c088.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:33:02 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:33:02 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:33:07 -!- whartung [n=willh@207.38.40.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:33:15 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:44 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:34:00 I wonder if for implementing NSUBSEQ (works like SUBSEQ but may share with argument) it would be more efficient to make a new vector, and fill via REPLACE, or use displaced-array with a fill-pointer. 17:34:28 My assumption is that the latter is expensive; can anyone back that up? 17:35:10 Perhaps depends on the size of the vector 17:35:34 ruepel0r [n=rue@p4FCE29CD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:35:34 whartung [n=willh@207.38.40.1] has joined #lisp 17:35:35 well, displaced vectors will become non-simple 17:35:52 true 17:35:56 -!- lichtblau [n=user@host80-61-static.75-81-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:35:58 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@p4FCE29CD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:36:06 letexpx [n=letexpx@ip-45.net-89-2-137.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 17:36:36 OTOH, you can't (unfortunately) express in CL's type system that a function returns a type of the same type as an argument. You can with SBCL's DEFKNOWN, though. 17:37:52 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D9B2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:37:59 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D9B2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:50 displaced vector seems to be more space efficient in CCL 17:39:55 but then, you can't garbage collect the initial vector, if you don't need it 17:40:15 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 17:40:27 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 17:40:59 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:41:27 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 17:41:54 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-11-56.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 17:42:22 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:42:30 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:42:57 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 17:43:15 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88.149.209.235] has quit ["Valete!"] 17:44:44 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:44:46 i guess the best way is implementation dependandt array header modification 17:45:04 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:45:27 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 17:46:00 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp151.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 17:46:02 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:46:19 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:22 -!- letexpx [n=letexpx@ip-45.net-89-2-137.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 17:48:27 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 17:48:49 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:47 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-hffrnjpphgzkqofp] has joined #lisp 17:59:40 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:59:41 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:33 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 18:01:07 Moe111 [n=Moe111@modemcable067.226-21-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:01:33 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:01:55 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:01:55 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 18:02:05 I'm running a webserver using hunchentoot. I've created a script called /etc/inid.d/web which loads a certain lisp image. 18:02:16 I'm just wondering, what would be a way to ensure that that image lives a long time. 18:02:31 I mean, make it production ready. When the image dies, get some sort of notification. 18:02:36 (PS. I'm using sbcl) 18:02:37 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:02:50 the image does seem to die randomly every other day. It's not reliable. 18:02:59 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 18:03:00 Moe111: i disable ldb and run it in a shell script that sleeps a bit and restarts. 18:03:07 i've never had a problem with random death, though. 18:03:17 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:03:28 ldb = debugger? 18:03:32 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["WeeChat 0.3.0"] 18:03:38 low level debugger 18:03:40 the low-level debugger 18:03:42 ah. 18:03:52 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:03:53 will this impede in a swank session running? 18:04:40 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:04:53 swank doesn't know about ldb 18:04:54 HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:05:08 Draggor [n=Draggor@216.80.120.145] has joined #lisp 18:05:19 great. so I've likely never actually seen ldb then. 18:05:27 Moe111: ldb is the prompt that comes up when something serious and low-level has gone wrong. i would rather just crash out and restart. 18:05:36 do you run swank in your image? 18:05:42 I do 18:05:47 at least for now I do 18:06:01 (maybe later if I feel that it's hindering performance, I won't) 18:06:05 you do creat connection with :dont-close t? 18:06:18 for swank? 18:06:19 I do: 18:06:22 yes 18:06:47 you don't do ,quit in slime? 18:07:14 swank:create-server with :dont-close t, correct 18:07:27 no, no (quit) in slime 18:07:50 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 18:07:58 Moe111: i deploy all my lisp apps under and init-replacement called 'runit'. I handles starting, stopping, restarting, logging etc. 18:08:09 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:27 -!- ejs [n=eugen@91.90.9.206] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 18:08:28 drewc: does it have modest fault tolerance? like if it dies, it knows to restart? 18:08:33 Moe111: then you should investigate why it dies for you 18:08:37 Moe111: though, if your hunchentoot is dying every other day, i might suggest something is wrong with your code 18:08:53 Moe111: yes, it keeps the process running. 18:09:26 I will investigate the dying. It's not so much worrying me as I can see several reasons for it happening. the thing I want more control over is better notification and good book keeping. making it a real daemon, instead of a script that pretends to be a daemon 18:09:35 drewc: thanks 18:09:45 Moe111: check your logs (you are logging.. right?), add some calls to ROOM in placs where it might help, and track down the source. 18:10:10 i had one app where simply putting an (sb-ext:gc :full t) in the right place stopped 90% or the crashes. 18:10:40 (putting it in the wrong place caused crashes, so read your logs!) 18:10:46 drewc: I've done (room) checks under stress loading tests, and it hovers at 55~65 megs. 18:11:07 Is your operating system allocating memory optimistically? 18:11:22 my current feeling is htat I have a db connection that goes over CL-SQL -> unixODBC -> FreeTDS -> on the wire -> MSSQL server ona different box 18:11:41 and that connection dies or drops, or idles and that's what causes my problems 18:11:50 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:11:52 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:12:07 all this said and done, runit is what I was looking for 18:12:26 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 18:13:02 Zhivago: not sure. how would I tell? 18:13:56 By default linux will allocate pages of memory to your program that it doesn't have, in the expectation that it will have the memory by the time you get around to using it. 18:13:59 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 18:14:41 Search for linux optimistic memory allocation. 18:14:43 ffi could case some headaches 18:14:46 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:14:48 s/case/cause/ 18:16:50 Zhivago: this might be a possibility. I've been running linux with 128 megs of ram. to see what it would be like. 18:17:45 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:18:59 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 18:21:22 peddie_ [n=peddie@c-67-170-201-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:55 -!- peddie [n=peddie@67.170.201.38] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:22:31 -!- dmiles_akf [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:22:42 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 18:24:40 redblue [i=star@ppp057.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:24:51 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:25:19 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 18:25:47 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:27:23 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:29:23 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 18:31:18 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:43 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 18:33:03 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:33:08 kidd [n=kidd@80.Red-79-152-42.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:46 -!- HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:34:24 Moe111: we run cliki.net on a 128mb VPS, and it's got an uptime of a few years. 18:34:51 Moe111: i have another app that i run on 1024mb, and it has an uptime of ... ... 4 hours. 18:36:16 <_3b> drewc: that reminds me, is the new clicki/alu wiki software available anywhere yet? 18:36:26 francogrex [n=user@91.177.18.211] has joined #lisp 18:36:47 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 18:37:16 sohail [n=sohail@69-165-148-98.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 18:37:19 I downloaded LinJ (thanks to p_l for directions). it needs allegro 6.2. Anyone used LinJ? 18:37:55 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-28-236.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:39:28 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:39:37 _3b: yeah, ish. I'm not exactly proud of, or happy with, the source code, but i have a tarball available : 18:40:02 http://common-lisp.net/~dcrampsie/ 18:40:07 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 18:40:21 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:40:32 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:29 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.224.39] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:41:45 drewc: so cliki runs on some 0.9 version of sbcl? 18:42:05 gonzojive [n=red@DN800cf60e.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 18:42:20 <_3b> drewc: cool, now i just need to find time to actually try it :) 18:42:30 phf: cliki.net is old IIRC. Hell.. http://tech.coop runs a cliki instance on 0.8.14 IIRC :) 18:43:09 htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.224.39] has joined #lisp 18:43:15 cliki@cliki:~$ sbcl 18:43:16 This is SBCL 0.9.17 18:44:22 ooh, MCL works on Intel, now 18:44:34 (in Rosetta, and taking up a rather amazing amount of memory, but still works) 18:44:56 drewc: cool. i thought it was running cmucl though 18:46:03 phf: It might have, years ago before i got hold of it. 18:46:21 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 18:46:26 convert xml to sexp and back to xml was joy easy. Or atleast Dia outputs clean xml. 18:46:36 -!- drforr is now known as dRfORR 18:47:49 drewc: heh. 4 hour uptimes make me angry =) 18:48:22 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:48:29 Makoryu: its better now. 18:50:36 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:50:51 drewc: you cant use your powers, bot is a real argument. 18:50:57 drewc: be fair to yourself. 18:51:20 v0|d: what is that nonsense trying to say exactly? 18:51:25 drewc: you should be argumentative other than prohibitive. 18:51:35 None of the regulars wants an evaluation bot. That's a pretty good argument, methinks. 18:51:48 tcr: that's a point. 18:52:28 well nobody wants me here, but I'm here now. is another poin. 18:52:35 There are more liberal places to discuss lisp on this network 18:52:49 tcr: what makes #lisp not liberaL? 18:52:55 v0|d: please avoid telling me how to think, act or feel, its not your place, and it pisses me off. 18:52:56 tcr: if that's you, behold. 18:53:22 v0|d: We aim for high S/N 18:53:28 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@modemcable067.226-21-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 18:54:30 drewc: please avoid to tell me what i'm gonna say. 18:54:46 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o drewc 18:54:53 v0|d: Another argument is that Lisp code is verbose and needs indentation to be readable 18:55:10 yeah that is a powerful argument tcr 18:55:13 and if you just want a REPL, uh, well, use a local one 18:55:16 drewc: i want every freedom that i want for me, for you. 18:55:20 v0|d: treading on thin ice you are. 18:55:28 ruediger [n=ruediger@93-82-15-219.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:55:36 wow 18:55:50 For more involved cases, we have good experience with lisppaste and its annotation feature 18:55:50 -!- spilman [n=spilman@92.135.215.136] has quit ["Quitte"] 18:55:56 we used to issue /kb's for much lesser offences.. lets get back to talking about lisp. 18:55:57 drewc: if you use your powers you will definetly be sure that it's not because i'm saying right, it's because you have powers. 18:56:04 they'r totaly different things. 18:56:09 v0|d: piss off k? 18:56:37 <_3b> v0|d: i suspect at least a few of us would agree with drewc 18:56:49 _3b: then you should talk. 18:56:50 drewc: stop threading ppl! 18:56:55 <_3b> v0|d: we want the freedom to not have to filter out off-topic noise for all of us 18:57:03 v0|d, fxr: die. 18:57:05 fxr: I think there's a venue for a web CL prompt 18:57:34 So try to synergize your energy into that 18:57:43 tcr: BioBike has a full online listener available to all. 18:58:02 Cool 18:58:05 http://nostoc.stanford.edu/Docs/demointro.html 18:58:07 minion: biobike 18:58:08 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``biobike''. 18:58:37 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-235.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 18:58:46 bah, got to register 18:58:56 nah, you don'[t 18:59:15 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:23 I could easily put up a remote repl at dwim.hu 18:59:24 except 18:59:25 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:59:33 that is too dangerous 18:59:35 I can't see through this 95-style webpage 18:59:48 http://nostoc.stanford.edu:8003/biologin 19:00:07 enter in any old username... IIRC it just wants it to create a package. 19:00:36 tcr: well I'm already thinking that a bot is more effective than a web repl 19:00:55 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-170.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:05 <_3b> fxr: bot is a good idea, just not /here/ :) 19:01:13 elderK [n=zk@122-57-241-160.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:01:25 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:01:58 fxr: So what's your counter-argument against my question regarding readability? 19:02:11 IRC is highly linear, web not so much 19:02:45 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229085165.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 19:03:30 *drewc* is going to real c.l.l. to get away from the noise... that's how bad it's gotten! 19:03:32 tcr: well I know the problems. I'm trying to get your ideas for a more collaborative tool. 19:04:26 I don't have any. 19:05:08 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 19:05:23 well... here. i'm finally switching to Linux 19:05:26 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 19:05:34 what is this repl thing about? could someone enlighten me/ 19:05:34 ralf_ [n=chatzill@f048125167.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:05:36 tcr: that is so clear 19:05:40 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:49 drewc: run away! 19:06:40 sykopomp: when i'm finished i'm coming back armed with kicks and bans.. i'm hoping things will work themselves out in the meantime. 19:06:54 drewc: just put your energy on your systematically obfuscated macros ok? 19:07:07 -!- dRfORR is now known as DrForr 19:07:12 fxr: that seems sort of rude 19:07:18 unless I'm missing some context. 19:07:23 No, it is rude. 19:07:32 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has been kicked from #lisp 19:07:39 drewc: yay 19:07:39 Next he will complain how stupid and rude the people in #lisp are. 19:07:47 tcr: we're used to that. 19:08:03 tcr: when that happens, it's time to turn up the smug to 11 19:08:56 *fe[nl]ix* high-fives drewc 19:09:36 *levy_* can't understand what was going on 19:09:38 jmcarthur_work [n=jmcarthu@hsv.pikewerks.com] has joined #lisp 19:09:52 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:10:01 rude people jumping in the lion's den. 19:10:05 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:56 :O 19:11:27 levy_: I guess the two people are mostly fans of haskell, and come here pre-opinionated. 19:11:40 hey, I'm also in #scheme 19:11:47 in the old days, we /kb'd for not R'ing TFM... i'm a kindler, gentler op :P 19:12:20 aavogt [n=aavogt@engage.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 19:13:06 *jmcarthur_work* is only here to observe 19:14:16 *levy_* wants to polish lazy-eval, but has no time for it 19:14:51 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.177.18.211] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:14:51 Does http://l1sp.org/cl/cons work for you? 19:14:58 *Xach* moved it to a new server today 19:15:06 Xach: is it supposed to redirect to the CLHS? 19:15:06 WFM 19:15:08 yup 19:15:13 drewc: yeah 19:15:14 Xach: works fine 19:15:16 then yup 19:15:23 cool, thanks. 19:15:28 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o drewc 19:15:35 -!- tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has left #lisp 19:16:54 planet lisp will be moving before too long, too. 19:17:18 levy_: you guys had a heap-walking how-much-memory-is-this-object-using type hack somewhere, yeah? 19:17:48 sure 19:17:55 moment 19:17:58 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [] 19:19:17 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:19:19 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:19:19 darcs get http://dwim.hu/darcs/hu.dwim.wui and see source/util/object-size.lisp 19:19:58 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:20 levy_: thanks! 19:20:38 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-1-29.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:20:57 you could as well navigate to that project from http://dwim.hu and open the source file 19:21:36 rapacity [n=prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #lisp 19:21:38 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:23:14 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:24:08 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 19:24:28 levy_: in emacs? :P 19:24:32 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:24:52 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:16 no, actually this should work http://dwim.hu/file/hu.dwim.wui/source/util/object-size.lisp 19:25:35 but it can't syntax-highlight source-text:source-bit-vector yet 19:25:38 just trying to cc 19:25:54 salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has joined #lisp 19:26:31 "An internal server error has occured, we are sorry for the inconvenience." 19:26:48 that's what I'm talking about, a missing defmethod on source-bit-vector 19:26:51 I was lazy :( 19:27:03 heh, try now :) 19:27:31 the usual lisp customer experience... ;-) 19:27:39 there it is :) 19:27:41 what error do you mean :D 19:27:43 ? 19:27:46 :P 19:28:09 -!- ralf_ [n=chatzill@f048125167.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.14/2009090216]"] 19:28:44 heh, you did not save the screenshot of that error, so it never existed... 19:28:44 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 19:29:40 drewc: what's the reason for c-l.net's cvs server (slime) being unbearably slow from time to time (not now)? 19:30:31 tcr: it's probably trac's fault... trac seems to take 99 19:30:39 % of the cpu a lot of the time 19:31:15 tcr: trac needs to deployed without tracd and have a lot of wiki's removed that are full of spam. 19:31:30 (the job will pay if anybody wants it ;)) 19:32:33 s/wiki's/wikis ... wiki is not an acronym is it. 19:32:39 No 19:33:09 It's short for wikiwikiweb meaning quickquick(web) in some language(unless i imagined that) 19:33:29 hawaiian 19:33:33 Elench: that's what i recall as well. 19:33:38 stassats: here? 19:33:46 Hawaiian, thanks koning_robot 19:34:32 Davidbrcz [n=david@212.198.78.230] has joined #lisp 19:34:53 np, i must've spent too much time on the c2 wiki 19:34:55 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has left #lisp 19:36:12 drewc, bah there was a bug, so object-allocated-size was not there in the source 19:36:14 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:36 now it's there, not that it does anything difficult you could not find yourself 19:36:53 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:37:45 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:38:52 bah, I also have to separate line numbers from code, this way it's pretty hard to copy-paste from it 19:42:04 -!- Hazelesque [n=hazel@pc222.mcs.le.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:42:29 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:44:15 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:45:54 -!- Intensity [i=[UJg+jfH@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:46:11 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:46:12 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:46:36 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 19:51:36 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 19:53:00 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-246.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:53:59 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has joined #lisp 19:56:18 (loop for x = (gen) ...) should repeatedly call (gen) at each loop iteration, right? 19:56:18 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:56:22 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:56:47 <_3b> sykopomp: looks like it, assuming ... doesn't start with THEN 19:56:48 sykopomp: yes 19:57:10 hm. It doesn't seem to be working for me. It's very odd. 19:58:03 <_3b> (loop for x = (print "!") repeat 10) 19:58:30 <_3b> what does the rest of the code look like? 19:58:46 hm 19:58:47 -!- KingNatoG5__ [n=patrik@84-217-9-214.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:59:00 <_3b> are you possibly closing over X? 19:59:03 you know when you spend a while trying to fix something, and it really doesn't seem to work, but then it does and you have no idea why? 19:59:12 <_3b> that is always fun 20:01:09 -!- jmcarthur_work [n=jmcarthu@hsv.pikewerks.com] has left #lisp 20:01:11 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:01:36 is there a reason why a loop like (loop for x = (recv in) when (= 0 (mod prime x)) do (send out x)) wouldn't work?... 20:01:37 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-70-9.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:01:51 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-70-9.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:07 francogrex [n=user@91.177.18.211] has joined #lisp 20:02:38 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:42 a silly question: in R we define a function like: test <- function(a,b) {(a/2)+b} 20:03:14 then we can use either: test(10,3) or test(b=3,a=10) 20:03:14 that is not a question! 20:03:19 wait 20:03:31 you want named parameters in Lisp? 20:03:36 can we do the same (defun test (a b) (+ (/ a 2) b)) 20:03:37 <_3b> sykopomp: mod args backwards maybe? 20:03:39 tic: yes 20:03:46 francogrex, look into keywords. 20:03:56 Intensity [i=[cbPeuAL@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 20:04:00 like &keys 20:04:37 _3b: isn't DIVIDES (= 0 (mod x maybe-divisor))? 20:05:49 -!- gonzojive [n=red@DN800cf60e.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 20:05:49 <_3b> sykopomp: was just guessing, couldn't tell what you were trying to do from the example 20:06:16 *_3b* would use zerop though 20:06:55 _3b: I'm trying to work out a stupid sieve that's confusing the hell out of me. 20:07:22 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 20:07:38 seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:19 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-72-136.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:09:41 what sieve? 20:10:00 a prime sieve 20:10:09 there are alot of them :) 20:10:10 _3b pasted "assimp + cl-opengl/cl-glut" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87189 20:10:23 <_3b> => http://3bb.cc/tmp/assimp.png 20:10:23 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 20:10:37 kleppari: rob pike has a parallel prime sieve using tons of processes and channels in his paper about newsqueak, and I'm trying to get it to work. 20:10:45 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-76-21-41-95.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:56 (in lisp) 20:11:17 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 20:11:33 KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-8-10.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:53 ok looked it up so when I use somthing like this: (defun test (&key (a 10) (b 3)) (+ (/ a 2) b)) I can have either (test) or (test :a 10 :b 3) but not (test 10 3) 20:13:11 _3b: nice - can you paste the data file as well? :) 20:13:18 joswig [n=joswig@f054052235.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:13:27 -!- lispm [n=joswig@f054052235.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:13:41 francogrex: yes. If you want to be able to accept different shapes of arguments, then you will have to parse them yourself. (defun test (&rest args) ...) 20:14:12 <_3b> kleppari: http://assimp.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/assimp/trunk/test/models/X/dwarf.x?revision=263&view=markup 20:14:48 *_3b* needs to add in the automatic scaling stuff so i can try some of the other test files 20:14:50 francogrex: what pjb said might work, but i don't think it's a good idea.. what's wrong with just using keywords? I has the advantage of being self-documenting. 20:15:18 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 20:15:25 And probably faster than you parsing the arguments. 20:15:42 The compilers can optimize out argument parameters when they're passed with literal keywords. 20:16:33 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 20:17:27 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-71-2.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:17:39 though, in the case of the example given, a compiler macro would help. 20:17:40 drewc: nothing wrong with using keywords. Just wondering if it can be the same as in R 20:18:19 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:18:36 pjb: ok thx 20:19:32 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 20:20:29 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:21:21 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:22:28 Aszarsha_ [n=aszarsha@91.164.132.20] has joined #lisp 20:26:30 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:34 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:27:12 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 20:30:18 Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-080-138.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 20:33:43 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 20:34:29 pjb: did you run Emacs.app 23? 20:35:01 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6FC0E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 20:36:39 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.180] has joined #lisp 20:38:11 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:38:19 has anyone done a code_swarm of sbcl commit history? 20:38:36 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 20:39:11 -!- levy_ [n=levy@apn-94-44-13-232.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 20:39:33 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-72-136.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:40:00 DeusExPikachu: yes. IIRC the video was on Vimeo 20:40:03 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6FC0E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:30 <_3b> DeusExPikachu: http://www.vimeo.com/4074512 ? 20:40:40 -!- Aszarsha [n=aszarsha@83-154-175-47.rev.libertysurf.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:40:51 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:41:01 hmm was posted 5 months ago... 20:41:13 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 20:41:26 I actually care about those past 5 months 20:41:48 merus [n=merus@pal-161-218.itap.purdue.edu] has joined #lisp 20:42:24 francogrex: well, in my experience, if the question is 'can lisp do this?' the answer is almost always 'yes!'. :) 20:42:51 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-166.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:43:13 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has joined #lisp 20:44:19 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 20:44:56 -!- merus [n=merus@pal-161-218.itap.purdue.edu] has left #lisp 20:45:32 sykopomp: thanks for the pointer to the talk 20:45:35 it's quite interesting 20:49:18 cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-177-53-117.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:40 konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has joined #lisp 20:50:24 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.59.96] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:50:32 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.59.96] has joined #lisp 20:51:16 -!- jte [n=jensteic@p548EFDFA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:51:58 leo2007: I installed emacs-23 and tried it, but I've not switched to it, because it'll need an update (and mostly prunning) of my ~/.emacs ; moreover I'm finishing a project, and I won't spend time switching tools right now. 20:52:32 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 20:52:36 Otherwise, even on MacOSX, I use GNU emacs on X11 (with ratpoison). 20:52:57 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-70-9.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:53:14 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:19 pjb: that last part about using ratpoison is interesting, how do you configure that? 20:53:33 Emacs 23 is crashing on a daily basis so I'm really unhappy about it. 20:54:41 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:54:47 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:36 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-26-217.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:56:14 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:56:36 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 20:56:37 *francogrex* will rant: 20:56:43 leo2007: I'm not sure exactly. X11.app was half broken, I tiddlided things, and suddenly when launching it I didn't have quartz-wm anymore. So I typed sudo port install ratpoison ; ratpoison &disown and I'm happy everafter... Now when MacOSX requires a reboot (Grrr!), I just retype ratpoison&disown 20:57:23 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 20:57:25 fuck java. I was excited to try LinJ but couldn't get an old version of Allegro so didn't work. fuck the IT department at my job as well 20:57:26 leo2007: otherwise, I use an emacs I compiled myself. 20:57:39 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:06 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:58:19 pjb pasted "compile-emacs" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87194 20:58:20 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 20:58:38 pjb: why ratpoison over stumpwm? 20:58:51 *drewc* loves stump 20:59:01 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-080-138.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:59:10 I'll have to switch to stumpwm too. I've been too busy. 20:59:35 francogrex: Forget about java. Use ABCL or CLforJava. 20:59:36 I am still uncertain how to run that with X11.app 20:59:49 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:00:12 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 21:01:23 pjb: not for me personally. it's those IT idiots at my workplace; they said: use either C or Java, nothing else is allowed, so was happy with the lisptoC or LinJ... nothing is working I'll throw in the towel or quit 21:01:50 leo2007: I think I moved /Applications/Utilities/X11.app/Contents/MacOSX/X11 to X11.bin and wrote a script X11 instead. From it, I can boot "$(dirname "$0")"/X11.bin "${@}"& and launch any window manager or other app. Or run ~/.xinitrc, or whatever. 21:02:14 ok, thank you for the pointer. 21:02:34 anyone here who ever cross-compiled ecl? 21:02:56 leo2007: there may be a more cacher way to do it, perhaps some preference somewhere or whatever... 21:04:05 pjb: ITYM "Cachet" 21:04:28 C is still topping the charts. I just need to develop my perusuion skills now a little more than my poor programming skills... 21:04:44 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 21:04:48 *francogrex* rants angry at IT 21:04:58 i personally enjoy programming in C .. it's the debugging i don't like so much 21:04:59 , 21:05:04 OOPS 21:05:27  is what I meant. 21:05:53 (not literaly either obviously). 21:06:05 hrm... emacs is not displaying those chars... what are they? 21:06:23 some secret language 21:06:31 ha... the terminal displays them 21:06:34 drewc: I have no problem with C. i'm just tired of close-minded square pen-pushers. maybe I need to go solo... 21:06:34 you don't get the codepage unless you know the handshake 21:06:37 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:06:41 kenpp [n=kenpp@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 21:07:54 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@63.107.91.99] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:07:56 francogrex: do you have enough experience with lisp to know that it's a good fit for whatever project you want to use it for? Are the other members of the team experienced enough with lisp to make it a viable choice? 21:08:13 drewc: caph shin resh 21:08:18 these descisions are rarely about the technology... they're social decisions 21:08:21 does sbcl devs still use the hybrid git/svn approach for VC? 21:08:23 pjb: does 22.3 have antialias font on osx? 21:08:49 Perhaps, but I never spend enough time to make it use MacOSX fonts, so I don't know. 21:09:00 pjb: sounds hebrew? 21:09:05 -!- phf [n=user@host.icnfull.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:09:05 yes. 21:09:10 social indeed. 21:09:48 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 21:09:49 trandition and conservatism 21:10:02 *drewc* has recommended against using lisp in a number of situations where he was asked for his opinion. 21:10:06 *varjag* is considering moving a product to lisp 21:10:33 it's not a panacea after all, it's a tool. 21:11:03 drewc: it'sweird, why would you do that? were u one of those in IT directory boards ina company (please say no) 21:11:09 francogrex: you see, things are so much different when you're doing "freelance" 21:11:37 if you use tools that make you hugely productive, then you finish the work fast, which means (depending on your hourly price) that you get less money ;-) 21:11:51 francogrex: no, i'm a lisp consultant, and have been asked to consult on language choice when lisp was involved. 21:12:02 if boss says "do it in C" -- well, just do it in C and move on... 21:12:03 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:12:04 mishoo: freelance, to go that way, you need to be *really* good bith in prog and business as well 21:12:36 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 21:12:37 mishoo: if you can do the work fast and with higher quality, you can bill more per hour ;) 21:12:54 emma [n=620e9a47@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-rjhnyxtipvburgxo] has joined #lisp 21:12:57 drewc: exactly :) 21:12:57 mishoo: that's what i'm ending up doing, how else do you think i'm keeping this job; 21:13:06 but there's a question of how many customers you can get 21:13:14 mishoo: one thing i've recommended to busy consultants is to double your rates... if you lose half your business you break even :D 21:13:25 it's hard to task switch -- I find it hard to work on 2 different projects in the same day, for instance 21:13:38 -!- milanj- [n=milan@93.87.192.139] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:13:40 if you are a skilled lisp developer, there is no lack of work available, in my experience anyway. 21:13:55 if I start my day focusing on one project, well, it's likely that I won't have any productivity on the other 21:13:55 drewc: where? 21:14:04 which continent? 21:14:16 mishoo: any given day i put 2 hours each into the 4 projects i'm on at the moment. 21:14:17 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:14:20 francogrex: the internet. 21:14:41 i have clients in .eu, .ca and .us right now. 21:14:41 drewc: good for you :) I'm not there yet.. 21:15:25 you're a freelance consultant... Do you have a family children. Do you make enough money, is your job stable? sorry to ask all this, buyt I find a freelance really risky 21:15:37 mishoo: it takes some discipline, which i lack somewhat, and sometimes it's more like 6 hours on one project per day, but as long as i bill x hours/wk, i'm happy, and as long as work gets done, clients are happy. 21:15:48 xach: l1sp works for me. 21:16:22 francogrex: i'm married, my wife has a child. I make more than enough money, i have not been without steady work in 3 or 4 years, and if you don't gamble you can't win. 21:16:52 that said, i also have a fallback that makes enough # to live should the contracts dry up. 21:17:01 s/#/$ 21:17:02 *francogrex* is afraid of taking risks. Prefers the stability of a salary job 21:17:06 -!- aavogt [n=aavogt@engage.uwaterloo.ca] has left #lisp 21:17:13 francogrex: and that's why you work in C and Java. 21:17:45 there is always risk (and some salaried jobs have a fair bit .... e.g. startups) 21:17:49 heh; yeah; the irony 21:18:02 francogrex: it's not the IT boards fault... they like stability as well and are just doing what they think is best practice. 21:18:04 what's ironic about that? 21:18:29 it's pretty obvious, the more mainstream you go the more likely to write code like that 21:18:50 i.e., you are shifting on the risk/reward curve or however you want to look at it 21:19:03 salex: was taking about drewc's reply. but your comment is pertiennt: that you can get fired also as easily from a so-acvcled stable job 21:19:16 drewc: it's great to have a fallback 21:19:20 that's what I'm missing 21:19:24 francogrex: right, but what I mean is that I don't find it at all ironic 21:19:28 so much as "obvious" 21:19:35 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212.198.78.230] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:19:36 sometime things don't go well and there's not enough consulting work I can do :-/ 21:19:36 indeed 21:19:54 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.180] has quit ["so long.."] 21:19:58 mishoo: a fall back might be as simple as tending a vegetable garden so you can still eat without a job ;-) 21:20:06 mishoo: some sort of residual income is a good thing... also saving money is a good idea. 21:20:27 saving money is pretty much always a good idea if you can work it though 21:20:31 pjb: hah. You can do that if no hungry mouths to feed 21:20:31 regardless 21:20:32 drewc: yeah, if I could save :) but I can't 21:20:46 and what pjb said. i live on a sailboat, have no debt and my expenses are minimal. If all the work dries up, i'll survive. 21:20:46 -!- deech` [n=user@24-107-144-116.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has left #lisp 21:20:51 Which is possible only if you are not over taxed. The first step will probably be to move to a country with less tax. 21:20:55 *mishoo* thinks ..oO( I always said I'm not making enough to save, but that might be wrong.. ) 21:21:04 drewc: you can always fish! :-) 21:21:08 mishoo: it's a choice, usually. 21:21:12 21% tva 21:21:21 pjb: going out in an hour actually... pinks and coho's are running! :) 21:21:52 s/'// 21:22:01 minion: thwap to me 21:22:02 drewc: please see thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 21:22:14 francogrex: anyway, in short, freelancing is cool 21:22:39 it's cool not because you can chose who to work for, but also because usually enough time remains for yourself.. 21:23:05 time you can use to "move forward" (I mean, experiment and learn new stuff etc.) 21:23:27 *wgl* hanging out my consulting shingle again 21:23:33 mishoo: I keep thinking about it. Who knows one day i might have enough skills and courage to tell the boss to go f*** himself... and then I go free 21:23:53 don't tell boss to fuck himself 21:24:02 francogrex: start small, don't quit your day job, don't burn bridges 21:24:08 -!- plops [n=user@pD9E68E87.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:24:08 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:24:11 and people in the business you are in in general 21:24:16 my first big consulting client was my former boss. 21:24:22 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-246.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:24:28 :)) 21:24:41 that's true... otherwise I might end up doing like Homer Simpson: crawling back to Mr Burns 21:24:43 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 21:25:16 if things don't work out well 21:25:22 the first years were very hard, and i took a lot of non-programming jobs to get by. 21:26:02 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:29 -!- easyE [i=[gscQILl@panix3.panix.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:26:44 drewc: would you go back to full-time employment now? 21:26:44 tau [n=Erdos@189.127.60.166] has joined #lisp 21:27:29 mishoo: i doubt it... unless i could telecommute and work flexible hours ;) 21:27:47 *mishoo* knows that feeling... 21:27:49 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:27:54 drewc: where do you get work? 21:27:59 drewc: got a steady client base? 21:28:02 kleppari: it finds me. 21:28:12 ok - that's a good spot to be in :) 21:28:15 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 21:28:21 yeah, can't complain :) 21:28:29 drewc: how did you get yourself in that situation? 21:28:39 kleppari: worked my arse off. 21:29:03 kleppari: probably (without knowing what drewc did) by doing some cool piece of open source software that everybody loves 21:29:23 do this, then customers find you 21:29:34 heh, yeah, that's given. I mean, how did you start? How did you score your initial customers? 21:30:29 in my case, i became an active member of the lisp community, got myself known as a lisp consultant. After that, people would recommend me for work, or saw the work i did and contact me. 21:31:27 kleppari: i started as a php/perl/c web developer, so i had some existing contacts. when one of them asked for a new system, i did it in lisp. 21:31:32 drewc: in general what sectors are your customers? 21:32:25 francogrex: i've got a lot of work in the insurance industry, some in the airline industry, and now getting into trading systems. 21:32:26 *mishoo* thinks ..oO( I don't even know how I started, it must have been pure luck. But I'm doing freelancing since 2001. Sometimes it's hard, but always rewarding... ) 21:32:27 *francogrex* apologizes if his english sounds more like french 21:33:28 mishoo: I'm happy for you. especially that you get to have enough time to enjoy doing other things yoiu like 21:33:48 francogrex: no worries, my grandmama couldn't string english grammar together to save her life :D 21:33:49 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:59 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:34:03 i find it charming personally :) 21:37:14 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6FC0E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 21:37:53 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 21:38:23 kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:43 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:38:44 Geralt1 [n=Geralt@p5B32E7F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:53 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:39:04 -!- Geralt1 is now known as Geralt 21:39:23 Coliveira [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has joined #lisp 21:39:28 -!- kidd [n=kidd@80.Red-79-152-42.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:39:52 Emacs just crashed again. 21:40:41 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:40:56 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:41:08 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-zmsgwtajqxojvnck] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:41:09 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 21:41:14 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 21:41:17 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.177.18.211] has quit ["bye all. See you next time."] 21:41:47 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-246.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:43:19 gimme the image link 21:43:27 gimme the image link again 21:43:34 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:43:54 lol, i hope this time emacs won't crash 21:44:31 ??? 21:45:03 ???to??? 21:45:09 sepult: who/what are you talking to? and does it have anything to do with lisp? 21:45:16 yes 21:45:25 it definately has to do with lisp 21:45:32 or kind of it 21:45:33 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has quit [] 21:46:10 well, bring it back on topic then ya? 21:46:50 oh someone was putting image links to some cartoon or so, and i 21:46:50 was clicking on it, and w3m would render the image in ttthe buffer but 21:46:50 then it all crashed 21:47:20 sepult: #emacs is that way ----> 21:47:22 maybe it was on another nework ? 21:47:24 lol 21:47:33 -!- Tordek_ is now known as Tordek 21:47:38 <_3b> minion: tell sepult about logs 21:47:38 sepult: direct your attention towards logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 21:47:46 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:47:58 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:19 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:49:38 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:43 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 21:53:37 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:54:14 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.24.241] has joined #lisp 21:54:19 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:54:50 drewc: I suppose one potential downside to freelancing is the practical constraint on (sub) project size/complexity 21:54:55 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:55:11 some things just need 8 people in a room for 6 months to even make a dent in.... 21:56:05 sepult: http://ar.to/2006/07/spam-filters-alien-technology-and-ruby-on-rails/lisplogo_fancy_256.png 21:56:36 -!- kpax [i=tx@c-83-233-243-156.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [] 21:57:02 salex: i've been a consultant on projects that require 100 people for a few years.... for the most part working remotely was ok, but there were times when i flew in and worked on-site. You need facetime and conversation to disover/divide up the tasks, but after that it's mostly head-down coding, for which consulting is ok 21:57:13 -!- kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:57:24 yeah, if you can break off a piece of it then it works ok 21:57:31 that said, i hear what you're saying.. there are limits 21:57:40 and of course, you've got to be able to visit 21:57:41 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:57:51 it certainly helped. 21:58:00 i was just thinking about it because I'm going to have to hire a bunch of people over the next 6mo 21:58:09 but I don't think I can do any of it remotely 21:58:20 (i.e. just riffing of your conv. about freelancing) 21:58:34 but this is all initially very technical work 21:59:40 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:59:45 (technical in the math and physics sence, not so much CS sense 22:00:10 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:00:56 salex: i've had luck hiring and working online. IRC is a big help there. Having said that, this is for fairly vanilla work without major deadlines, so the communication bandwidth is not a bottleneck 22:01:41 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-26-217.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 22:01:47 mmm, delicious vanilla 22:01:54 makes sense. I can see lots of projects where that would work well 22:02:00 (this just isn't one of them) 22:02:46 salex: yeah, i can conceive of projects where it simply wouldn't work at all. 22:02:53 in fact there will sort of be a "remote", in the sense there will be a few geographically separate groups 22:03:04 but i'm going to be spending face time with each 22:03:47 it'll be interesting to see how the co-ordination goes; I haven't done anything like this before 22:03:54 *quite like this 22:04:10 salex: sounds exciting! 22:04:16 it is! 22:04:29 can't wait to get started, actually. but have to finish up here 22:05:55 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:42 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 22:09:19 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:11:14 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:11:14 -!- nipra 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