00:00:10 -!- DrForr [n=drforr@173.55.19.85] has quit ["leaving"] 00:00:12 jensteich [n=jensteic@p548EFD70.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:00:37 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:00:51 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 00:02:35 drforr [n=drforr@pool-173-55-19-85.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:42 minion: memo for gigamonkey: my order of CoW is being shipped today, with notification of expected delivery coming shortly. 00:03:42 Remembered. I'll tell gigamonkey when he/she/it next speaks. 00:06:17 -!- prip [n=_prip@host185-130-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:06:22 prip [n=_prip@host185-130-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 00:07:38 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h69n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:10:05 -!- ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:10:11 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has joined #lisp 00:11:43 -!- Kickaha [n=user@253.4.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:17:04 raptelan_ [n=Casey@c-68-49-132-34.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:25 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 00:18:52 coliv [n=Coliveir@c-69-248-128-195.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:54 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@c-69-248-128-195.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:19:55 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177072209.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:20:10 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 00:20:42 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177072209.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:06 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:30 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Absquatulandus sum"] 00:23:47 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-62-75-121.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:00 yo 00:24:00 gigamonkey, memo from wgl: my order of CoW is being shipped today, with notification of expected delivery coming shortly. 00:24:16 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:26:19 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:27:28 -!- raptelan_ [n=Casey@c-68-49-132-34.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:28:49 blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 00:29:05 -!- blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 00:29:41 -!- raptelan [n=Casey@c-68-49-132-34.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:30:25 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:30:40 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:31:29 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:33:14 blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 00:33:27 -!- blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 00:33:59 lsk2 [n=lsk2_4@122.116.5.215] has joined #lisp 00:34:33 -!- lsk2 [n=lsk2_4@122.116.5.215] has quit [Client Quit] 00:35:12 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:35:41 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has quit ["leaving"] 00:36:37 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has joined #lisp 00:36:43 blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 00:37:06 -!- blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 00:37:36 Tordek [n=tordek@host254.190-228-247.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 00:37:51 lsk2 [n=lsk2_4@122.116.5.215] has joined #lisp 00:37:55 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:18 hey! 00:38:37 MattBoehm [n=bigboehm@129.174.97.34] has joined #lisp 00:38:37 hey! 00:38:44 3.38am here. 00:39:14 perfect time for lisping 00:39:44 Ralith: yeah 00:39:57 http://groups.google.com/group/core-server/browse_thread/thread/4481d3a1c9a64058 00:41:19 lispm [n=joswig@e177158004.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 00:42:42 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177072209.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:42:53 mcspiff` [n=user@drmons0501w-142177072209.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:03 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 00:47:55 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-upwpxnnvixvntaru] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:48:19 -!- etoxam [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:53:14 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:53:31 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:55:50 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-1-29.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:59:57 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has left #lisp 01:03:53 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:03 -!- jensteich [n=jensteic@p548EFD70.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.1"] 01:11:03 jteich [n=jensteic@p548EFD70.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:20 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:12:58 v0|d, you should try doing the compression thing wrt. your front-end server; it really speeds things up :) 01:13:45 lnostdal: hoping to do, im very busy with the new domain server. 01:14:06 i've noted what was said in cll. 01:14:21 ok, i haven't read cll in a few days 01:14:52 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/f8e5e71dc6895f85/b6cf1cd6f50642d0?lnk=gst&q=core+server#b6cf1cd6f50642d0 01:14:54 tau [n=Erdos@189.127.59.234] has joined #lisp 01:15:05 shame on google urls. 01:18:20 http://www.cl-http.org:8002/pics/ECLM2009/index.html 01:18:26 ECLM 2009 pictures 01:19:03 thanks 01:19:15 European Common Lisp Meeting in Hamburg, Germany, organized by Arthur Lemmens and Edi Weitz 01:19:26 pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-134-36.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:31 two pages 01:19:40 lnostdal: i would like to hear a comparison with your own tools. 01:20:33 -!- tau [n=Erdos@189.127.59.234] has quit ["Saindo"] 01:21:10 -!- pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-134-36.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:21:19 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6D3CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 01:22:32 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:22:41 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:24:10 hm 01:24:21 dunno .. i'm not using continuations at all 01:25:08 that i am aware of. 01:25:14 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 01:25:17 i'm planning to seperate continuation from the bare server. 01:25:22 chessguy_ [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:32 my stuff isn't very interesting for anyone else but me anyway though .. just saying; compression will probably help a lot and it's pretty easy to implement 01:26:09 i've had very bad experience with binary data. 01:26:12 :) 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[n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:49:57 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-62-75-121.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:52:47 -!- lsk2 [n=lsk2_4@122.116.5.215] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:53:17 -!- pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-134-36.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi"] 01:53:22 lsk2 [n=lsk2_4@122.116.5.215] has joined #lisp 01:54:18 chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-73-92-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:46 -!- clairvy [n=clairvy@219-106-253-18.cust.bit-drive.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:54:46 BrianRice [n=briantri@72.11.81.253] has joined #lisp 01:55:53 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:56:13 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:55 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit ["Verlassend"] 02:01:11 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 02:02:29 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 02:03:18 Levenson [n=alex@95.59.104.234] has joined #lisp 02:04:54 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 02:05:43 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"] 02:06:35 -!- chessguy_ [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:10:51 ah, yeah, probably don't want to compress binary stuff (in particular not stuff already compressed like png) and not huge files, either .. one can specify what (using http mime strings) to compress, and size-limits etc. 02:11:35 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279634139.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 02:11:42 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279634139.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:12:19 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:14:47 -!- mcspiff` [n=user@drmons0501w-142177072209.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:16:26 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:17:06 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp135.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 02:17:41 will there be videos, lispm ? :) .. 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[n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:57:26 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 03:58:24 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177072209.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:58:32 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177072209.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:12 raptelan_ [n=Casey@c-68-49-132-34.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:34 -!- Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:04:35 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 04:07:37 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-16-207.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:07:41 Good morning! 04:11:02 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@90.149.117.111] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:11:43 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@KD124213182069.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:11:46 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:12:03 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@90.149.117.111] has joined #lisp 04:12:29 pixpop [n=pixpop@166.205.131.91] has joined #lisp 04:12:38 Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 04:12:51 -!- pixpop [n=pixpop@166.205.131.91] has quit [Client Quit] 04:13:52 beach: mornin'. How was ECLM? 04:21:33 -!- raptelan [n=Casey@c-68-49-132-34.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:22:28 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:22:48 -!- ASau` [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:22:59 sykopomp: Very good as usual. 04:23:10 -!- pepone [n=pepone@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit ["KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: 3437, sources date: 20090703, built on: 2009/09/09 21:03:17 UTC http://www.kvirc.net/"] 04:24:24 -!- raptelan_ is now known as raptelan 04:26:35 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:27:17 I really wish people didn't use single-char variable names. Seriously :( 04:28:15 sykopomp: Y 04:28:32 Makoryu: cos 04:28:53 O 04:30:47 sykopomp: Sometimes that's the best choice. I can't see anything wrong with i and j as loop variables or x and y as arbitrary numbers. 04:31:03 oh, I don't mind those, either. 04:31:17 specially since i and j are so standard. There's basically no mistaking it. 04:31:41 I'm talking about just about every single variable being 1-3 chars long, in this code I'm trying to update. 04:32:33 Ouch! Well, part of understanding such a code would be changing the variable names. 04:32:46 that's what I've been doing for the past 2 hours. 04:32:54 and I actually can't even figure out what some of these stand for. 04:33:30 but hopefully it'll be nice once I get it cleaned up -- it's the csp library for CL 04:33:54 it looks really promising for doing serious concurrency in lisp 04:35:12 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:35:23 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:19 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.30.103] has joined #lisp 04:39:22 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.30.103] has quit [Client Quit] 04:40:44 http://paste.lisp.org/display/87083 <-- 04:41:18 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177072209.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:41:26 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177072209.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:43 the trick now is to get it to die elegantly. It's pretty unreliable right now. 04:44:49 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@72.11.81.253] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:50:39 lexa_ [n=lexa_@83.222.5.112] has joined #lisp 04:51:07 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest67412 04:51:20 sykopomp: It's probably simpler to read some papers on CSP. 04:51:50 hi, is there any way to assume a keyword without an argument to be true? ie. (defun foo (&key bar baz) (list bar baz)) (foo :bar :baz) => (T T) 04:52:12 pkhuong: I've read about them and watched the talk, and skimmed various other resources. 04:52:30 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:52:31 pkhuong: at this point, I'm figuring out how this -specific- library does it, and I'm trying to clean it up so it's actually usable. 04:52:38 egn: not with standard key arguments 04:52:58 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:00 stassats: alright, thanks 04:53:21 you can write your own key parser, but you shouldn't want to do this 04:53:40 yeah 04:53:53 egn: Why not just use optional arguments? 04:53:54 pkhuong: plus, it's one thing to read some papers about how to do a sieve, and another to actually try and write something useful with an implementation of the concept ;) 04:54:07 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177072209.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:54:16 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177072209.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:52 sykopomp: no, my point is that it's probably simpler to read docs/papers to understand the formalism than to dive in the library's implementation. 04:55:15 plan9's doc are very nice, iirc. 04:56:05 pkhuong: oh. I understand, conceptually, what the library is doing. I'm just cleaning it up and boggling a bit at why a couple of things here and there are the way they are (they don't seem to actually be the same way in the channel.c file in plan9port) 04:56:27 and there's lisp-specific considerations like how to properly recover from signaled conditions, how to properly map to bt, etc. 04:56:47 Makoryu: hm not sure how that would help. I want to not have to specify ':foo t :bar t' but just be able to ':foo :bar' 04:57:24 egn: Okay, so (defun foo (&rest args) (and (member :foo args) (member :bar args))) 04:57:51 that's bogus 04:58:06 *Makoryu* forgets the name of the more appropriate function he should be using in place of 'member 05:02:01 -!- Guest67412 is now known as lexa_ 05:02:31 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest87423 05:02:32 moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 05:03:27 Ogedei [n=user@e178210201.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 05:05:26 -!- Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:05:46 Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #lisp 05:06:14 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:07:55 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-14-189.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:15 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:08:33 eno_ [n=eno@70.137.150.186] has joined #lisp 05:09:55 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-98-210-12-88.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:10:17 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:10:39 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:11:47 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:11:56 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:12:27 -!- Guest87423 is now known as lexa_ 05:12:42 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:12:57 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest78776 05:13:01 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:13:51 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 05:15:19 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:15:38 -!- eno_ is now known as eno 05:18:28 jaws [n=jolyonwh@cb8faac9.atp.nicta.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:18:41 -!- jaws is now known as slackjaw 05:18:41 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:18:58 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 05:21:55 pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-134-36.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:00 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:22:12 -!- Guest78776 is now known as lexa_ 05:22:42 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest1077 05:23:27 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177072209.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:23:47 -!- pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-134-36.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:24:26 moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 05:25:06 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:25:25 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-7-110.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:25:26 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 05:26:55 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 05:28:25 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:28:29 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:33 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:44 gko`` [n=gko@211.22.47.2] has joined #lisp 05:32:13 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0222.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:37:00 hefner [n=hefner@58.9.114.48] has joined #lisp 05:38:39 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 05:40:09 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:44:43 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-253-255.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:49:23 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:50:01 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-5-32.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:01 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-14-189.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:51:01 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 05:52:26 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6D3CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 05:53:22 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-5-124.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:55:01 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 05:55:04 morning 05:55:11 Hmmm. 05:55:24 morn. 05:55:34 morning 05:55:42 Sup. 05:55:43 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 05:55:49 *Makoryu* ponders 05:56:28 If you were to build an altogether new display system in Lisp, which implementation would you start with? Would you move to a new dialect? 05:57:03 Insufficient information. 05:57:23 Zhivago: Ah, didn't know you hung out here. Sup? 05:57:45 peddie [n=peddie@67.170.201.38] has joined #lisp 05:58:25 Hey splittist; did you make it home OK.? 05:58:54 Makoryu: What kind of display system are we talking about? 05:59:06 beach: not a problem, thanks. Slept a bit on the plane... 05:59:31 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:59:39 beach: Something that isn't X11... Something designed to support OpenGL painlessly. 06:00:10 buy a mac 06:00:16 Makoryu: And what implementation/dialect are you talking about? Lisp dialect? CL implementation? 06:00:21 Makoryu: Not a great deal. 06:00:45 beach: Any of the above: "Would you move to a dialect?" 06:00:54 beach: It's an extremely open question. 06:00:59 Makoryu: I think I would have used CL, and I would try to make it as portable as possible. 06:01:00 Zhivago: Indeed. 06:01:09 So open as to be both meaningless and unanswerable. 06:01:16 Think more, then ask again. 06:01:18 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:24 if anything, i'd implement the dialect in CL 06:01:28 Zhivago: I'm thinking out loud, is what I'm doing. 06:02:31 Zhivago: If you would prefer to see a different topic of conversation, naturally you should feel free to bring it up. 06:02:52 Makoryu: I'd prefer you to fix your question so that it is meaningful and answerable. 06:02:55 Soulman [n=kvirc@80.202.254.154] has joined #lisp 06:03:21 I will note that I think you'd have to be a bit crazy to not use html, given the vagueness of this. 06:04:01 lnostdal: You mean, you'd write the compiler/interpreter in CL? Have it compile down to CL? 06:04:23 Zhivago: I'm not asking for help, just trying to provoke discussion on the topic. And see, you're contributing already. 06:04:39 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:04:42 What a waste of nitrogen ... 06:04:46 NO U 06:04:58 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:05:23 Makoryu: Rather than making it tied to OpenGL, you might consider a system that can handle multiple backends, much the way CLIM does it. 06:05:50 -!- slava [n=slava@li13-154.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 06:06:34 beach: CLIM looks slick. Any good examples of apps implemented with it? 06:06:46 minion: tell Makoryu about Gsharp! 06:06:46 Makoryu: direct your attention towards Gsharp: Gsharp is a graphical, interactive score editing application for standard Music notation. http://www.cliki.net/Gsharp 06:07:32 Nice. 06:07:35 beach: "Our new release is 0.2 as of 2003-09-06" 06:07:44 Makoryu: Thanks! 06:08:03 slyrus_: Of Gsharp? We had a release? Wow! 06:08:19 slyrus_: But, yeah, I get the point. 06:08:20 according to the common-lisp.net page, yes, fwtw 06:08:24 :) 06:08:41 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-17.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:08:52 beach: And yeah, rather than mention OpenGL, I should have mentioned compositing window management and arbitrary 3D graphics 06:10:07 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-5-32.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:10:07 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 06:11:47 know about Clutter, Makoryu ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clutter_%28toolkit%29 .. perhaps some CFFI-bindings to that .. it is GObject based btw.; i think the guy behind cl-gtk2 is doing some work on GObject (in general; not just for gtk+) 06:12:52 lnostdal: The initial assumption was that someone wanted to implement a totally new display system, I think. 06:12:54 perhaps Zhivago is right though .. :P .. http://blog.wolfire.com/2009/09/preview-of-webkits-webgl-canvas3d/ 06:13:20 lnostdal: If we change that assumption, the answers will be totally different, of course. 06:13:50 I did a slight change to cl-ncurses, to make it work (out of the box) on solaris; if there is no answer on the mailing list, do I have some tools to add patches/stuff to c-l.net? 06:14:17 c|mell [n=cmell@KD124213182069.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:14:20 lnostdal: Whoa, Clutter looks like it might actually be a portable toolkit... 06:14:31 beach, *shrug* yeah, i'm not sure where clutter fits in tbh. .. perhaps it is better than starting from 100% scratch 06:14:51 Makoryu: Are you looking for a portable toolkit, or are you planning to write one? 06:15:35 Makoryu: Or perhaps you were planning to write one bacause you thought none existed? 06:16:12 beach: I'm not planning anything in particular. I do think it would be cool to have a desktop environment that's extensible in Lisp and encourages writing applications in Lisp... I have no idea how far down the turtles should go, though, so partly I'm trying to get a sense of that. 06:17:11 beach, I finally got your dictionary software to work---very nice! 06:17:17 $clever_comment_about_the_second_coming_of_the_lisp_machine_and_the_end_of_days 06:17:54 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:18:00 redblue [i=star@ppp048.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 06:18:10 Makoryu: more code, less blather 06:18:13 minion: chant 06:18:13 MORE CODE 06:19:16 kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:19 -!- moocow is now known as k 06:19:49 -!- k is now known as Guest17971 06:19:59 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.30.103] has joined #lisp 06:20:12 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:20:12 (do ((i list (cdr i))) ((null i)) ...) ;; is there some way of expressing that using LOOP? .. the idea is to (setf (car i) ...) .. for some reason i keep thinking of nthcdr, but that's not right 06:20:34 or :by #'nthcdr 06:20:42 -!- Guest17971 is now known as moocow 06:20:52 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:21:29 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:21:35 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 06:22:12 lnostdal: map-into? 06:22:39 ohyeah, the map functions .. 06:22:46 I'm reading chapter 21 of Practical Common Lisp---"Programming In the Large". Is asdf a substitute for what I'm reading in that chapter? If not, how do they relate? 06:23:06 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 06:23:20 lat_: http://weitz.de/packages.html 06:23:27 totally forgot about that one, thanks sykopomp 06:24:45 mrSpec [n=Spec@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 06:25:23 stassats, thanks! I'll read that now. 06:25:28 hello 06:29:21 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:30:20 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-76-254-48-240.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:27 lat_: Oh, thanks! 06:32:55 Makoryu: This is why I started working on McCLIM. 06:33:19 beach: So as to have an open, general-purpose CL graphics kit? 06:34:06 Makoryu: yeah, and add "better than the ones that exist for lesser languages" as well as "portable", "with multiple backends", etc. 06:34:10 Anyway, time to leave. Talk to you later. 06:34:12 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-16-207.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 06:34:36 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:35:06 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:32 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 06:40:10 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:43:26 beach, seen the ECLM pictures? 06:45:37 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:46:03 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:47:47 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:48:04 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:49:16 good morning 06:49:38 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:50:07 ASau [n=user@host184-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 06:52:33 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:53:18 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:54:26 KingNato [n=patno@195.149.143.194] has joined #lisp 06:55:30 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-73-142.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:57:31 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.30.103] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:58:31 harblcat [n=harblcat@c-68-54-116-153.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:09 -!- gko`` [n=gko@211.22.47.2] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 06:59:35 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.14.143] has joined #lisp 07:01:00 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:02:13 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:02:45 -!- seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:03:18 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:03:26 so, is clojure a lisp? 07:03:27 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:03:32 Yes. 07:03:51 harblcat: clojure is also offtopic 07:03:54 :) 07:04:14 Intelligent discussion of it won't disrupt anything. 07:04:49 let's talk about ruby instead, it's a better lisp. 07:05:02 gko [n=user@211.22.47.2] has joined #lisp 07:05:04 How does it qualify as a lisp? 07:05:26 and ruby is not a lisp; it's a lisp wannabe 07:05:39 matzacred lisp 07:05:53 how does clojure qualify as a lisp? It has parenthesis in some places? 07:06:54 tau [n=Erdos@189.127.59.198] has joined #lisp 07:07:01 -!- tau [n=Erdos@189.127.59.198] has left #lisp 07:08:45 well, clojure programs are homoiconic, has macros, what else do you want 07:08:46 ? 07:08:58 something that isn't a red herring. 07:09:03 That's the question -- what defines a lisp? :) 07:09:15 code-as-data? 07:09:41 CL doesn't have code as data, unless you mean source code. 07:09:44 harblcat: i just said that :/ 07:09:52 -!- egn [i=tux@nodes.fm] has quit ["kernel"] 07:10:15 Zhivago: that's code as data. If you mean "it's not dataflow", that would be data as code. 07:10:27 Most systems have source code as data. :) 07:10:30 well, to be precise, code is not data. programs are data. 07:10:36 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-35-141.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:10:39 when read by the Common Lisp reader. 07:10:52 if talking about CL 07:11:02 hooray play on words. 07:11:40 there's plenty of clearly non-lisp languages that are able to manipulate their code as data, are homoiconic, etc. 07:11:50 i think that's why *they* invented term homoiconic so we can skip this discussion 07:12:03 You can boil lisp down to lists and atoms and eval and apply, but that's still missing some basic philosophical issues. 07:12:25 serichsen [n=svante@hmbg-4d06cc51.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:27 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 07:12:31 good morning 07:12:45 probably a stricter definition would be something like "applicative language with extensible syntax that shows direct evolution from the original LISP, preserving some of its aesthetics and common functions" 07:12:52 some people call Dylan a lisp, too. 07:12:56 i think. 07:13:00 I'd call dylan a lisp. 07:13:10 One of those seems to be that the meaning of expressions depends entirely on context. 07:13:22 the evolution from original LISP is not required. 07:13:29 imho. 07:13:52 jdz: it's what sets it apart from clearly non-lisp languages that share those characteristics. 07:14:06 Although CL does place limits on this. 07:14:33 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:14:37 I don't believe that this is true of python or ruby. 07:14:41 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:22 Zhivago: you don't have to. You can boil "a lisp" down to abstract syntax objects, instead of lists and atoms. 07:15:54 sykopomp: and which of the features you named do not hold for Clojure? 07:16:15 syko: Any you can then boil those down into 'things' and 'relationships as things', which brings you back to conses and atoms. 07:16:22 jdz: they hold for clojure, I just dislike clojure with a passion, so I'll say senseless things about it in hopes of derailing conversations on it :) 07:16:43 What part of clojure frightens you most? 07:16:55 Zhivago: it doesn't frighten me. It annoys me. 07:17:01 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:17:12 Why? 07:17:19 sykopomp: i'd gladly read a blog entry about your annoyances :) 07:17:24 like I said, it's a red herring. It's this shiny thing that seems to solve everyone's problems, and everyone's all "ooh ahh" about it, but I'm not actually convinced it genuinely solves much at all. 07:17:51 It appears to get rid of a vast load of crap, at least -- and that's something. 07:17:54 sykopomp: you seem to have been reading marketing materials too much. 07:17:57 it's a -bad- red herring because it distracts otherwise useful lispers from actually improving CL 07:18:18 jdz: or I've been annoyed by clojure trolls too much. 07:18:36 Zhivago: it gets rid of a lot, that's for sure :) 07:18:46 Do you honestly think that CL can be improved at this point? I don't. 07:18:48 and adds a bit of crap, to boot. 07:18:55 Zhivago: I think so, sure. 07:19:03 why wouldn't it? 07:19:36 and for me personally, it's a good Java (there's this thing called real world full of average Joes using it to write programs, you know) 07:19:43 paines [i=3e60ca24@gateway/web/freenode/x-adkmbdusnyrjimrr] has joined #lisp 07:19:51 hi 07:20:17 I'm unconvinced that the Route to a Better Language is to actually reimplement a completely new language, instead of iterating over the same language and patching things up as you go. 07:20:42 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-11-56.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:20:54 jdz: last I checked, there's more C software in the "real world" than there is Java software. 07:21:00 although maybe I missed something. 07:21:03 amaron [n=amaron@93.86.161.198] has joined #lisp 07:21:06 -!- gko [n=user@211.22.47.2] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:21:15 yes, but the software *i* have to interface with, is written in Java 07:21:26 jdz: okay, and? 07:21:35 lisp runs on the jvm. Now what? 07:21:41 Well, iterating over the same language tends to either subtly break existing code, or be unable to fix existing problems. 07:21:42 sykopomp: nothing. 07:21:51 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.52.247] has joined #lisp 07:22:00 Zhivago: hey, go figure. It subtly breaks some software. 07:22:01 Consider type upgrading -- how would you fix that in CL? 07:22:09 I want to execute some commands from within slime+sbcl(sb-ext:run-program) which doesn't seem to work. could someone give me an example. I can't seem to find one on the web / documentation. 07:22:15 you know what reliably completely breaks all software? New languages :) 07:22:49 Zhivago: not familiar with the problem. Can't really answer that :) 07:23:31 sykopomp: is your name derived from "psycho" and "pompous" for any reason? 07:23:42 harblcat: clearly 07:24:17 honesty is a good virtue to have :) 07:24:27 harblcat: so is sarcasm. 07:25:24 -!- harblcat [n=harblcat@c-68-54-116-153.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 07:26:59 paines: run-program takes many options, so it could be difficult to invent a helpful example. can you be more specific? 07:27:12 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 07:27:50 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:28:13 arbscht_: well for starters it tried just to run ls like (sb-ext:run-program "ls") for testing. later I want to execute some snmp set/get calls. 07:29:05 try $ whereis ls 07:29:32 minion: snmp 07:29:33 snmp: SNMP means Simple Network Management Protocol, see RFC 2271-2279 There're two SNMP packages on Common Lisp: Lisp-SNMP and cl-net-snmp, both are pure Lisp implementations of this Networking protocol. http://www.cliki.net/snmp 07:29:48 paines: ^^ 07:29:52 hehe 07:29:56 yeah just found that 07:29:58 thanks 07:30:23 but anyway, i think the documentation, like most docs, is missing some handy examples 07:31:41 so http://paste.lisp.org/display/87084 07:32:04 gko [n=gko@211.22.47.2] has joined #lisp 07:32:24 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@59.167.195.42] has quit ["leaving"] 07:32:56 lnostdal: great. thank you very much 07:35:42 (sb-ext:run-program "/bin/ls" nil :output *standard-output*) ;; does the same thing i guess 07:41:09 Zhivago: doesn't CL have type upgrading? for example doing incf on an fixnum would eventually become a bigint. 07:41:43 That's not type upgrading. 07:42:06 Zhivago: what is the problem? 07:42:31 Is (array t) a subtype of (array integer)? 07:42:47 Zhivago: doesn't cltl2 have some stuff to figure that out? 07:43:02 I thought we were talking about CL here ... 07:43:20 Zhivago: I thought we were talking about how to solve issues with 'standard' cl. 07:43:35 So, what's the answer? :) 07:43:55 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.52.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:44:04 you can find out with (upgraded-array-element-type 'integer) or just subtypep 07:44:20 So, what determines if (array t) is a subtype of (array integer)? 07:44:39 the implementation is free to decide, normally they are the same type 07:45:00 c|mell: oh, I should've checked clhs. I assumed since all hits seemed to be for cltl2 it wasn't 'standard'. 07:45:06 And what implementation decision will affect this? 07:45:12 i doubt that there is any cl implementation where they are a different type . . . 07:45:22 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:45:40 Zhivago: the issue is only an issue if you insist on having portable code. 07:45:55 which is, of course, more than clojure could ever wish for :) 07:46:11 And what implementation decision will affect this, sykopomp? 07:46:23 Zhivago: why don't you tell me? 07:46:35 why is it an issue even then? integer is a very general type encompassing fixnums and bignums, (upgraded-array-element-type 'integer) will always be t, i would imagine 07:46:47 Zhivago: what was my example? simple coercesion? 07:47:20 lharc: + being able to both bignums and fixnums ... 07:47:41 cmell: What does integer have to do with this question? :) 07:47:46 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Verlassend"] 07:48:20 i'm not sure i'm following, but + does not handle both bignums and fixnums if you request that it should not do so 07:48:27 what is the question? i seem to have butted in halfway through the conversation, sorry 07:48:56 " Zhivago: doesn't CL have type upgrading? for example doing incf on an fixnum would eventually become a bigint." 07:49:25 c|mell: apparently, there is some serious issue with type upgrading that is irreconcileable. 07:49:35 Zhivago: But INCF doesn't have to know about its argument being fixnum and ending up being bigint. 07:49:37 thus, warranting a completely new language as a solution 07:49:45 at least, if I'm following the gist of the conversation :P 07:49:52 lharc: INCF uses +. 07:49:55 prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 07:50:28 sykopomp: What it depends on is if the implementation has the same implementation of arrays for those types or not. 07:51:03 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 07:51:06 Zhivago: okay, so it causes (mostly) tractable portability issues? 07:51:18 fgtech^ [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 07:51:21 sykopomp: Is (cons t t) a subtype of (cons integer integer)? 07:52:10 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:52:16 -!- fgtech^ is now known as fgtech 07:52:27 Zhivago: is that a trick question? 07:52:51 No. 07:53:29 minion: clhs subtypep 07:53:30 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 07:53:34 erm 07:53:38 clhs subtypep 07:53:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subtpp.htm 07:53:57 vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 07:54:38 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:54:54 Zhivago: only ecl seems to be uncertain about it. 07:55:05 ccl, sbcl, and clisp all say "def. not, sry" 07:55:21 chapters 13-16 are here :-) http://lisp-book.org/contents/ 07:55:30 sykopomp: Why is that? 07:55:41 anyone here familiar with cl-facebook? 07:55:45 Zhivago: implementation details that I really don't care about all that much? 07:55:53 sykopomp: Wrong. 07:56:03 Zhivago: why do I care? 07:56:16 I thought you wanted to improve CL? Doesn't that require understanding it? 07:56:20 i have an api-key, api-secret but where do i get an auth-token or session-key? 07:56:56 Zhivago: "improving" something could also mean changing it so that is conforms to your mental model of it :-P 07:57:11 Zhivago: I don't understand what you want. Why should '(cons t t) be a subtype of '(cons integer integer)? 07:57:17 Zhivago: well, sure. I'm working on that. So tell my why I should care. 07:57:17 fiveop [n=fiveop@e179164092.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:57:34 -!- paines [i=3e60ca24@gateway/web/freenode/x-adkmbdusnyrjimrr] has quit ["Page closed"] 07:58:09 sykopomp: What does subtypep mean? 07:58:54 Zhivago: could you please give a frame of reference? 07:59:01 Common lisp. 07:59:27 Zhivago: "a type whose membership is the same as or a proper subset of the membership of anohter type, called a supertype. (Every type is a subtype of itself.)" 07:59:36 n. 07:59:57 Ok, so what does the type of an array mean? 08:00:35 Zhivago: I just don't understand what you're getting at here. 08:01:44 Fair enough. 08:02:02 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 08:02:05 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-35-141.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 08:02:10 so if you are, please exlplain 08:02:13 explain* 08:02:19 >_> 08:02:31 language lawyerism 08:02:34 boooo 08:04:01 sykopomp: The point of a type system is that you can use it to reason about your program. 08:04:56 now we're at crossroads. 08:05:02 #haskell is ---> that way 08:05:11 sykopomp: If the type of arrays (for example) simply reflects an arbitrary implementation decision, then your ability to reason is limited to an arbitrary implementation. 08:05:23 or give the compiler some extra info for it to optimize with :) 08:05:29 jdz: Try not to babble. 08:05:38 sykopomp: Were that the case why would we have subtypep? 08:05:50 i will try. the point is not about optimization, but about reasoning about the program. 08:06:04 Zhivago: this is not an issue when you stick to one implementation, and there is programmatic support for determining things portably. 08:06:06 so what, then, is the issue? 08:06:31 sykopomp: What is the difference between a class and a type in CL? 08:07:03 sunwukong [n=vukung@business-80-99-161-225.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:07:09 Zhivago: well, for one, classes can't be arbitrary predicates ;) 08:07:09 They are orthogonal concepts in CL 08:07:44 sykopomp: So, what is a class? 08:07:44 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:07:45 for instance a type can be fixnum, but it's class is integer 08:07:47 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:17 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:08:23 Zhivago: a CLOS object; an instance of STANDARD-CLASS; a concrete thing you can define methods on and have slots in. 08:08:49 sykopomp: What about things which aren't instances of STANDARD-CLASS -- can they be classes? 08:08:57 Seperate hirarchies 08:08:57 that is a object can have type fixnum, but class integer 08:08:58 a way of thinking about it, classes are glorified structs that also have a degree of polymorphism, and are involved in method dispatch. 08:09:08 That way of thinking is wrong. 08:09:17 What is the class of 10? 08:09:30 implementation dependant 08:09:59 Yes, it is implementation dependent. 08:10:21 So, what is a class? :) 08:10:22 -!- deech [n=user@24-107-144-116.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:10:22 -!- deech` [n=user@24-107-144-116.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:10:24 Zhivago: classes that are not instances of STANDARD-CLASS are instances of a different class metaobject class. 08:10:36 sykopomp: Does that make them any less classes? 08:10:57 deech [n=user@24-107-144-116.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 08:10:59 deech` [n=user@24-107-144-116.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 08:11:00 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-76-254-48-240.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 08:11:12 Zhivago: "The type class represents objects that determine the structure and behavior of their instances. Associated with an object of type class is information describing its place in the directed acyclic graph of classes, its slots, and its options." 08:11:28 if you're going to be roundabout about your points, you can keep doing that, I'll keep giving you straight answers when I can :) 08:11:30 -!- Guest1077 is now known as lexa_ 08:11:44 sykopomp: So, what does the class of 10 tell us? 08:11:49 Zhivago: well an example of a class that is not a member of standard-class is those declared by defstruct 08:12:00 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest76652 08:12:00 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 08:12:14 Zhivago: implementation-dependent results? 08:12:27 It tells us how 10 is implemented, to some degree, yes. 08:12:31 What does the type of 10 tell us? 08:12:54 ? 08:13:07 Zhivago: that I don't see your point? 08:13:26 sykopomp: What reasoning can I do based on the class of 10? 08:13:41 Zhivago: however much reasoning as you want. 08:13:48 Try to be less retarded. 08:13:48 how much reasoning do you want to do? 08:13:57 try to be less stubborn 08:14:11 Try thinking. 08:14:14 Zhivago: try to give a more specific frame of reference 08:14:26 your complaint is implementation-dependent. It's not something without a solution for a given application. 08:14:39 sykopomp: What is my complaint? 08:14:57 Zhivago: you haven't made that entirely clear, but it seems to be "omfg how do I figure out a type?" 08:15:35 *younder* notes that class/type has caused some confusion over the years. 08:15:55 and the answer would be "stick to a set of implementations that provide your favorite results, stick to one implementation, or use subtypep, type-of, and class-of to provide your cross-implementation 'reasoning'" 08:15:59 Then why are you saying that my complaint is implementation dependent? 08:16:07 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 08:16:13 No, the implementation isn't an issue here. 08:16:31 then what is? 08:16:35 You need to think about the kinds of reasoning that classes allow and the kinds of reasoning that types allow. 08:16:37 you want a static type system? 08:16:40 #haskell is that way -> 08:16:58 Please attend a remedial English course concentrating on reading comprehension. 08:17:17 Zhivago: lawl 08:17:33 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:18:03 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-7-165.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 08:18:24 great amosphere here as usual. 08:18:27 Zhivago: why don't you start a discussion by stating your beliefs? What kind of reasoning do you want in either case? 08:18:30 -!- deech [n=user@24-107-144-116.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:18:32 -!- deech` [n=user@24-107-144-116.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:18:40 deech [n=user@24-107-144-116.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 08:18:42 deech` [n=user@24-107-144-116.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 08:18:42 spiaggia: keepin' it friendly, ofc. 08:18:49 freiksenet [n=freiksen@193.166.13.253] has joined #lisp 08:18:53 some people discuss to prove they are right 08:19:08 or to humiliate others, haven't yet figured it all out 08:19:09 if you can't even state what you mean without pushing people around with questions .. 08:19:23 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.152.166.202] has joined #lisp 08:19:39 seri: There's nothing you can do if someone isn't interested in thinking. 08:19:45 hello spiaggia 08:19:59 probably more of the old "I have X ill-defined theoretical issue that I read in ACM once 10 years ago, so I'm going to be vague and smug about it." 08:20:09 See? :) 08:20:16 Zhivago: did you, even for a moment, think about trying to explain? 08:20:24 Zhivago: I'm not interested in mind-reading. I'm interested in a discussion. 08:20:31 Zhivago: nor am I interested in smug intellectual masturbation. 08:20:35 gua: I have been explaining. See the results. 08:20:45 the masturbating monkeys are over in #openbsd -> 08:21:26 Zhivago: as much as i got out of your lines was that you were trying to avoid the issue you were talking about 08:21:33 Zhivago: it's simple! "My issue with the type system is that, specifically, I can't do X, Y, or Z. It's a real issue because of this, and it can't be fixed because _" 08:21:38 Zhivago: all you have been doing is asking questions and not liking the answers 08:21:41 Zhivago: isn't that a much more productive way of going about this? 08:21:59 sykopomp: The problem is that you don't understand what type system means here. 08:22:16 now, if you're unable to construct a simple sentence like that, I'm going to assume you're just wasting my time. 08:22:22 -!- cmeme [n=cmeme@boa.b9.com] has quit [No route to host] 08:22:27 Zhivago: nono, what I don't understand is what -you- expect a type system to mean. 08:22:44 I'll tell you exactly what CLHS says it means. That's an answer. 08:22:55 what zhivago wants it to mean may not necessarily line up. 08:23:07 Francogrex [n=user@91.177.142.144] has joined #lisp 08:23:09 and what you want me to say, because you will it, may also not line up with either what I think, or what clhs says. 08:23:26 sykopomp: Quoting mindlessly should not be confused with understanding. 08:23:42 Zhivago: circumlocution should not be confused with knowing wtf you're talking about. 08:23:44 Zhivago: why don't you just explain? 08:24:00 it is, after all, the best tool for buying time while you find something not-stupid to say. 08:24:24 seri: A class allows you to reason about implementation to some degree. 08:24:51 seri: A type allows you to reason about operations to some degree. 08:25:05 seri: Unfortunately CL gets this backward in several places. 08:25:08 -!- deech` [n=user@24-107-144-116.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:25:08 -!- deech [n=user@24-107-144-116.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:25:22 Zhivago: and this strict definition is drawn from... 08:25:25 -!- sunwukong [n=vukung@business-80-99-161-225.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["bye"] 08:25:35 syko: The CL specification. 08:25:43 deech` [n=user@24-107-144-116.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 08:25:45 deech [n=user@24-107-144-116.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 08:26:12 syko: You might want to think about what class means rather than just cutting and pasting like an automaton. 08:26:55 Zhivago: and there's plenty of different definitions of various things in computer science. 08:27:02 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:27:06 backward, how? 08:27:07 And we're talking about CL ... 08:27:08 Zhivago: do you have some concrete example? 08:27:24 Zhivago: you might want to think about where you get your definitions, and why they're valid. 08:27:33 seri: Yes, as I provided above -- is (array t) a subtype of (array integer)? 08:27:52 Zhivago: and you got your answer. Now what is the problem there? 08:28:04 syko: I have -- I have taken them from the CL specification. They are valid because that's what we're talking about. 08:28:10 "look at the birds over there" is not an answer. 08:28:23 seri: is (cons t t) a subtype of (cons integer integer)? 08:28:42 answer: Not in any CL implementation I tested. 08:29:01 so, from my perspective, the answer is a solid "no" 08:29:15 syko: Can (cons t t) be a subtype of (cons integer integer) in a CL implementation? 08:29:31 Zhivago: Is it? 08:29:45 Are we arguing here to prove that point of view of X is better than point of view of Y? Or is the argument constructive in any way? 08:30:02 sykopomp: That is an inappropriate response -- please try again. 08:30:02 Zhivago: practical answer: "no" 08:30:07 Zhivago: "no" 08:30:23 sykopomp: Is this based on testing some random implementations or on understanding the language? 08:30:25 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:30:28 how pompous can one be 08:30:42 Zhivago: it's based on "Why should I care?" 08:30:47 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.193.110] has joined #lisp 08:30:58 syko: Yes -- you don't want to think -- that was established earlier. 08:30:58 guaqua: this is #lisp.. 08:31:00 since I can actually answer that correctly about any given implementation. 08:31:04 syko: As I said before; Fair enough. 08:31:15 Zhivago: no, you want to keep being vague about something there seems to be no point to. 08:31:29 Where am I being vague? 08:31:40 what is the point? 08:32:27 "Can (cons t t) be a subtype of (cons integer integer) in a CL implementation?" Yes. "Can I programmatically find the answer?" Yes. 08:32:40 conclusion -> Give-shit-p => nil 08:32:48 syko: What is that first "yes" based on? 08:32:51 Zhivago: where can you read about type upgrading? 08:33:02 lharc: You can read about it in the hyperspec. 08:33:03 Zhivago: it doesn't specifically say otherwise :) 08:33:14 but it tells you how to find out! 08:33:20 and if I can find out, then I can reason about it. 08:33:27 if I can reason about it, you're full of hot air. 08:33:38 skyopomp: So, what reasoning leads you to say "yes"? 08:34:02 Zhivago: I'm not going to repeat myself. Maybe you're the one that needs remedial English? 08:34:17 syko: Ok, so you can potentially reason about it, but choose not to? 08:34:44 xan [n=xan@193.173.25.98] has joined #lisp 08:34:48 Zhivago: Ok, so you can potentially reason about types, but you choose not to? 08:35:04 conclusion -> you're still not getting anywhere. 08:35:38 Well, as I said before, you're not interested in thinking, so fair enough. 08:35:56 Zhivago: you're not interested it getting any answers except the ones you want. 08:36:15 you've yet to make any useful point. 08:36:16 Zhivago: it's not in the glossary, isn't there any other material, SICP? 08:36:55 "SBCL does not use an interpreter by default; all expressions are compiled to native code unless the user switches the interpreter on" <<< How can that be done? 08:37:05 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.152.166.202] has quit [] 08:37:08 Zhivago: I think the best you've done so far is ad hominem. How about some substance? 08:37:15 lharc: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/fun_upgraded-_element-type.html#upgraded-array-element-type should get you started. 08:37:39 sykopomp: You'd better look up 'ad hominem'. 08:37:45 Francogrex, (describe 'sb-ext:*evaluator-mode*) 08:38:30 Zhivago: oh, I always thought it applied to made-up claims. Whoops :) 08:38:40 Zhivago: so, are you going to get a point in there at some point? 08:39:52 sykopomp: Can you reason about why (cons t t) can or cannot be a subtype of (cons integer integer)? 08:39:52 Zhivago: thanks 08:40:05 Zhivago: Yes. 08:40:14 Zhivago: programmatically to boot. 08:40:27 isn't this fuss what the second value of subtypep is all about? .. 08:40:27 thus, no problem 08:40:33 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.14.143] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:40:37 Testing is not reasoning. 08:40:45 Zhivago: in programming it is 08:40:46 Inostdal: (setf sb-ext:*evaluator-mode* :INTERPRET) ? 08:40:59 Francogrex, "Declared type: (MEMBER :COMPILE :INTERPRET)" 08:41:08 No, testing in programming is not reasoning. 08:41:12 Francogrex, so, yeah :) 08:41:28 Zhivago: "If this assertion fails, then this assumption I made about the program is incorrect" 08:41:31 How do I test if I really switched to interpreter mode? 08:41:31 that's reasoning 08:41:32 BROTIP 08:42:24 sykopomp: So, how can you reason about if it is possible for a CL implementation to say that (cons t t) is a subtype of (cons integer integer)? 08:42:26 Francogrex, (describe (lambda () 42)) i guess 08:42:36 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.14.143] has joined #lisp 08:42:43 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:43:40 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:43:45 lnostdal: Thanks. 08:45:43 Zhivago: every type is a subtype of itself. It is implementation dependent whether a type declaration of elements actually leads to a specialized type of the "container", so it is possible that every cons type is the same and thus, all a subtype of each other. 08:46:08 serichsen: No. 08:46:17 Zhivago: Yes. 08:46:40 serischen: The relationship between (cons t t) and (cons integer integer) does not depen on the implementation of a cons cell. 08:46:47 depend, even. 08:47:17 Zhivago: I didn't say "implementation of a cons cell". 08:47:44 serischen: So, what does "leads to a specialized type of ..." mean? 08:49:10 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-078.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 08:50:57 Zhivago: whether declaring an element type of a "container" makes it possible to discriminate on this element type 08:51:36 Discriminate by what method? 08:52:15 Zhivago: e.g. #'type-of 08:53:19 serichsen: type-of has considerable leaway, which makes it not very useful for this kind of thing. 08:53:23 -!- vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:53:37 serischen: You might consider what subtypep means in terms of cons types. 08:54:56 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:55:02 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:56:20 Zhivago: that both types are conses and that in both car and cdr a subtypep relation is found 08:56:58 -!- Francogrex [n=user@91.177.142.144] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:57:20 seri: Ok, can T be a subtype of Fixnum? 08:58:28 Zhivago: however, the declaration of element types may not always reflect in the type of the container, so that effectively, all conses are of type (cons t t 08:58:38 No, That's simply untrue. 08:59:04 All conses are subtypes of (cons t t) 08:59:17 You may be confusing class and type. 09:00:19 Yes, all conses are subtypes of (cons t t). Where did I say anything to the contrary? 09:00:50 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:00:52 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:00:53 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:14 You said that all conses are of type (cons t t) which is not the same thing. 09:01:38 this is the same thing. being a subtype means that it acts a a type too. all numbers are of type t. 09:01:53 Zhivago: perhaps serichsen means: (setf (car (cons 1 2)) 'hi) 09:01:57 this is like first lesson in OO programming theory 09:01:58 no, I said that _effectively_, an implementation may _behave as if_ all conses were of type (cons t t) 09:02:18 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:02:22 (cons 1 1) produces an object that is of type (cons (integer 1 1) (integer 1 1)) 09:02:43 -!- lsk2 [n=lsk2_4@122.116.5.215] has quit [""] 09:02:52 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@193.166.13.253] has left #lisp 09:02:56 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 09:02:59 Zhivago: can the type of an object change? 09:03:09 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:03:16 matimago: If the object can change, yes. 09:03:19 freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 09:03:32 Type * (typep 1 t) 09:03:38 Zhivago: yes, but you are not guaranteed to get the type information at this detailed level 09:03:54 seri: Good -- and that's irrelevant to reasoning about the types. 09:04:30 seri: Because we know the definition of the cons type with respect to subtypep we can reason about the above problem in terms of if t is a subtype of integer or not. 09:04:32 hahaha, I love how this entire thing hasn't budged an inch. 09:04:42 what a mess :P 09:04:43 Zhivago: to me it seems that reducing the types of values to their value is not too useful. 09:04:51 -!- Guest76652 is now known as lexa_ 09:04:53 seri: That doesn't involve the accuracy with which the system reports the type of an object. 09:05:02 levy_ [n=levy@apn-94-44-10-244.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:05:11 Telling me that 1 is of type {1} is not useful at all. 09:05:15 Zhivago: OK, so what? 09:05:19 matimago: Perhaps you should think in terms of the types of bindings, instead. 09:05:21 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest93816 09:05:51 Zhivago: Then consider (let ((x (cons 1 2))) (declare (type x ???)) (setf (car x) 'hi)) 09:05:59 seri: We can determine that t cannot be a subtype of integer, which means that (cons t t) cannot be a subtype of (cons integer integer) which is the problem that sykopomp was unable to reason about. 09:06:22 lsk2 [n=lsk2_4@122.116.5.215] has joined #lisp 09:06:24 Zhivago: no, he was not unable to reason about that. 09:06:44 matimago: So, what type encompasses the values that may be bound to x? 09:06:49 Zhivago: you didn't give a useful frame of reference 09:07:03 seri: What frame of reference other than CL do you need? 09:07:05 -!- Guest93816 [n=lexa_@83.222.5.112] has left #lisp 09:07:06 lsk2_2 [n=lsk2_4@122.116.5.215] has joined #lisp 09:07:34 -!- lsk2_2 [n=lsk2_4@122.116.5.215] has left #lisp 09:07:59 Zhivago: a useful frame of reference would have been "the inherent logical/philosophical meaning of types", as opposed to "what a CL implementation can actually report" 09:08:23 seri: Uh, and that frame of reference would have allowed you to answer any of these questions? 09:08:44 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:09:35 matimago: Given your example we know that type must be a supertype of (cons (or (integer 1 1) (member hi)) (integer 2 2)). 09:09:41 guaqua: btw, 'psychopomp' has nothing to do with pompous, although the association is pretty appropriate sometimes :) 09:09:49 Zhivago: an object doesn't have a single type. (and (typep 1 'fixnum) (typep 1 '(integer -1 1)) (typep 1 '(integer 0 100)) (typep 1 'T)) 09:10:00 matimago: Where did I say that it does? 09:10:09 You keep talking of "the" type. 09:10:32 I have a feeling that he is a troll. 09:11:23 matimago: A particular value has a particular type that discriminates it most accurately. 09:11:37 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 09:11:45 matimago: All other types that this value satisfies will be supertypes of this type. 09:11:57 hello 09:13:01 Zhivago: So far so good. Considering that any value is of all the types between itself and T, I'm thinking more and more that types are totally useless. :-) 09:13:22 Zhivago: OK. Now -- so what? Where do you perceive deficiencies in this regard in CL's type system or some object system? 09:14:00 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:14:00 matimago: That's not true of your example, is it? 09:14:30 seri: Can you perform the same kind of reasoning about (array t) and (array integer)? 09:15:58 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:16:05 Zhivago: perhaps if you consider the latice of all types, the most "discriminating" type would be the one in the middle that is the most different from the other types. (The type with the smallest horizontal intersection and the biggest vertical intersection). T and the value type themselves are useless. 09:16:49 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.14.143] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:17:20 matimago: Consider the operation (+ 1 2) -- if we consider the value type here we can determine the type of the result as (integer 3 3) and continue from there. 09:18:44 matimago: Consider how a type might allow us to reason about the result of an inequality operation. 09:18:58 matimago: I think you'll find that they can be useful. 09:19:18 Ok, I see. It's that we more often have (+ a b) with larger types. 09:20:30 That's true, and in that case you might find it useful to be able to work out if (+ a b) may or may not produce a bignum. 09:21:10 Indeed. 09:21:27 -!- lsk2 [n=lsk2_4@122.116.5.215] has quit [""] 09:21:44 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@89.181.68.0] has joined #lisp 09:22:46 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-7-165.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:24:05 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:24:52 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit [] 09:27:36 -!- slackjaw [n=jolyonwh@cb8faac9.atp.nicta.com.au] has quit ["Computer goes to sleep!"] 09:33:30 easyE [i=[gscQILl@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 09:33:49 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6CFA8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:35:18 Zhivago: yes, why not? 09:35:42 Ogedei` [n=user@e178210201.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:37:10 Zhivago: of course, arrays have some orthogonal considerations, like dimension, size 09:37:33 Those are parts of the type, too. 09:38:32 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:40:27 Sorry -- orthogonal to what? 09:40:39 Zhivago: to each other 09:40:48 What? 09:41:14 That doesn't make any sense to me. 09:41:20 Zhivago: the element types, dimension, and sizes of an array can change independently from each other 09:42:03 Zhivago: if you specify a type as (array t), you leave dimension and sizes unspecified 09:42:08 Ok, well, overlooking the constraints between dimension and sizes, why is this interesting? 09:42:40 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:43:10 Zhivago: defining whether arrays of different sizes can be subtypes of each other seems arbitrary 09:43:20 Zhivago: just as an example 09:44:21 Perhaps the liskov substitution principle would be useful here? 09:44:49 Zhivago: aren't you now confusing classes and types? 09:45:02 No, I don't think so. 09:48:37 Zhivago: well, strictly speaking, only arrays of exactly the same dimensions and size could have a subtype relation to each other, then 09:49:14 Well, it depends on how you specify the operations -- but that's certainly one possible state of affairs. 09:50:01 Imagine that you only had aref as an operator upon arrays -- you could see that it would certainly be possible to have arrays of different dimensions being in a subtype/supertype relationship. 09:50:26 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 09:50:33 -!- Ogedei [n=user@e178210201.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:50:50 Zhivago: that could produce index-out-of-bounds errors 09:51:09 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:10 Not if you specify that all coordinates in a subtype must be present in a supertype. 09:51:38 Then you'd have no problem with having a 2x2 array being a subtype of a 3x3 array. 09:51:52 Zhivago: OK 09:52:44 You'd have problems with the number of dimensions differing unless a default embedding were defined. 09:52:49 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.152.166.202] has joined #lisp 09:52:51 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:53:28 e.g, embedding a vector on the 0th row of a higher dimensional array. 09:53:49 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:53:59 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:37 Zhivago: wait. you need to specify that all coordinates in the supertype must be present in the subtype, not the other way around. 09:57:13 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:59:10 Is (member a) a subtype of (member a b)? 10:00:52 bbiab 10:02:56 Zhivago: no. 10:04:35 -!- ve [n=a@94.193.95.252] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:06:55 -!- gko [n=gko@211.22.47.2] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 10:08:52 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:10:30 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-10-244.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:11:06 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-153-123.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:13:22 kiuma [n=kiuma@host148-131-static.28-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:14:01 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:23:12 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483AF25.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:44 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 10:24:33 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.152.166.202] has quit [] 10:28:51 benny [n=benny@i577A1306.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:29:22 serichsen: it is 10:29:30 heh 10:29:34 now I got myself 10:29:47 ok 10:30:17 hej nikodemus, missed you at eclm 10:30:17 tcr, memo from adeht: check out http://paste.lisp.org/display/86893 10:30:32 hi tcr :) 10:30:48 hi! 10:34:23 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:34:56 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:34:56 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:35:59 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 10:36:59 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 10:37:05 tcr: i was sorry to miss it too 10:37:18 tcr: re: the discussion on sunday, (defun foo (x) (declare (double-float x) (optimize speed)) ...)) will give a note for (log x 2.0) but not for (if (plusp x) (log x 2.0) 0) 10:37:28 tcr: is that substantially different from your case? 10:45:40 jsnell: (>= x 0.0d0) gives a note, though 10:46:03 and has a full call to LOG 10:46:58 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:47:05 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:22 huh, strange 10:49:52 hi attila_lendvai, I'm trying to understand why (find-place-filter-type-for-type 'dmm:html-text) dispatches to (f-p-f-t-f-t (NULL)) 10:50:04 kami- annotated #87052 "no null in the slot definition, only html-text" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87052#2 10:50:29 *splittist* loves it when replace-regexp turns screens of garbage into bee-you-tiful sexps 10:50:38 jsnell: I only remember that we talked about the dead code note heuristic 10:50:50 jsnell: and I get notes for both expressions 10:51:12 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 10:51:51 kami, just a side note: if you would like to filter for html text, I don't think using an html editor will work 10:51:58 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:52:01 I'm bpretty sure we talked about whether range checks on numbers got propagated differently into different else branches, but if it doesn't matter then that's fine :-) 10:52:10 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 10:52:19 You must confuse me with somebody else 10:52:27 html is stored in xhtml format, and the filter uses substring search, so if you filter for a bold substring that will not match 10:52:43 Hi levy_, I'm just using it as a use case. I don't need it for filtering 10:52:51 joswig [n=joswig@e177123032.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:53:06 kami, ok then, I try to help 10:53:16 it's just the first link that I can click on which calls those functions :) 10:53:51 levy_: thank you. If you look at the paste, I have enumerated all known methods for f-p-f-t-f-t 10:54:55 levy_: and the backtrace shows that it's the method dispatch in sb-pcl which calls that method with null as argument, correct? 10:56:26 unfortunately I don't have this code running, so I will take a look at the code and try to guess it from there 10:56:36 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.152.166.202] has joined #lisp 10:57:04 levy_: I have also pasted the code of make-place-filter which calls fpftft 10:57:37 levy_: stack frame 17 shows the call to make-place-filter 10:58:09 levy_: which calls fpftft with its own argument 10:59:18 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has left #lisp 10:59:18 levy_: then comes the sb-pcl method dispatch in frames 15 and 16 which lead to calling of (DEFMETHOD FIND-PLACE-FILTER-TYPE-FOR-TYPE NULL) 10:59:40 what does (find-type-by-name 'html-text) returns? 10:59:53 you might have a package problem there 11:00:35 or more specifically (wui::find-type-by-name 'dmm::html-text) 11:00:35 levy_: (wui::find-type-by-name 'dmm:html-text) returns NIL 11:00:43 :) 11:00:44 that's the problem 11:01:19 what does (cl-perec:find-type 'dmm:html-text) returns? 11:01:29 levy_: how comes when I M-. on dmm:html-text, I'm taken to its defptype? 11:02:12 levy_: (cl-perec:find-type 'dmm:html-text) return # 11:02:30 because it is also a deftype 11:02:42 are you not satisfied with that M-.? :-) 11:02:44 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177158004.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:03:06 then you are not loading the file /integration/cl-perec/kludge.lisp in wui 11:03:12 nice name, eh? 11:03:23 -!- joswig [n=joswig@e177123032.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 11:03:35 should load-op wui-and-cl-perec 11:03:39 that loads those files 11:03:44 htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.224.39] has joined #lisp 11:03:57 the integration of perec/dmm and wui is not automatic (seems like we've been here some time ago) 11:04:07 not automatic yet 11:06:20 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-078.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:07:21 *levy_* went to have launch 11:07:32 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6CFA8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 11:08:15 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-078.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 11:13:25 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:14:28 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:05 Aszarsha [n=aszarsha@91-164-151-152.rev.libertysurf.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:16 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:20:05 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:24:09 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 11:26:53 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:30:18 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-160-173-108.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:36:03 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.152.166.202] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:39:40 leo2007 [n=leo@131.111.223.202] has joined #lisp 11:40:11 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:40:12 kpreid___ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:52 -!- kpreid___ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:46:02 HG` [n=HG@xdslej006.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:46:48 mcspiff [n=user@142.177.72.209] has joined #lisp 11:48:45 -!- emma [n=em@cpe-98-14-154-71.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 11:48:55 *levy_* back 11:49:00 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslej006.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 11:49:14 -!- emmy [n=em@cpe-98-14-154-71.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:50:17 levy_: I changed environment/build-image.lisp such that my image depends not only on wui, but also on wui-and-cl-perec. Would that be okay? 11:50:32 Hazelesque [n=hazel@pc222.mcs.le.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:50:52 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@ipn36372-f96131.cidr.lightship.net] has quit ["leaving"] 11:51:05 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6CFA8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:51:07 which command to use to see the documentation of a variable in ccl? 11:51:23 describe 11:51:25 I used to use C-c C-d d when I was using sbcl. 11:51:38 kami-, yes I think so 11:51:40 is that bound to any key? 11:51:45 no idea 11:52:19 and describe doesnt give the doc :< 11:52:40 PissedNumlock: describe is the same as C-c C-d d 11:52:41 levy_: now I have a very strange behaviour. When building the image, I get " package "ISYS" not found" 11:53:08 kami-, I guess that's a missing asdf dependency 11:53:10 levy_: which seems to be iolib.syscalls 11:53:14 iolib.syscalls 11:53:45 levy_: yes, but when I add that to build-image.lisp, the error doesn't go away. 11:53:58 levy_: oh wait. I didn't rmfasl completely. 11:56:50 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.177.72.209] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:57:33 -!- spacebat_ is now known as spacebat 11:59:12 In slime, any idea how to have the representation pasted where the cursor is? 11:59:18 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:00:06 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["brb"] 12:00:14 for example, when I type in the REPL: (length ><) and hit enter on one of the representations, it will be pasted outside the parenthesis. 12:00:27 '><' denotes where the point is. 12:02:11 levy_: I don't understand it. Even after rmfasling, the package isys is not known. Although I have build the same image some days ago. And the file cluster.lisp MUST have been compiled, then. 12:02:38 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 12:03:42 kami-, you have a missing asdf dependency 12:04:06 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:04:10 the final system may depend on iolib.syscalls but that is not enough 12:04:23 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:26 because this way it would get loaded *after* the file you are mentioning 12:04:53 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 12:04:55 so make sure to put iolib.syscalls as a dependency into the system which is actually using it 12:05:07 levy_: shouldn't dwim-meta-model have a :depends-on :iolib.syscalls ? 12:05:35 levy_: and why did it work 3 days ago? 12:05:58 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:27 I don't know why it worked 12:08:55 my repo structure is quite different than yours, because we not only refactored wui, but almost all of our repos 12:09:05 kami-, probably either in wui or dmm 12:10:01 levy_: I don't like it when the behaviour of a software system changes without any related code changes. 12:10:19 dabd [n=dabd@85.139.99.12] has joined #lisp 12:10:57 Could it have been due to a side-effect of compilation? 12:11:03 levy_: but, maybe I'll understand one day 12:11:21 well, probably there were some changes, or the order of side effects matter, I just can't tell 12:12:22 levy_: I seem to have passed that error. But, now I have a conflict between CL-PEREC::IP-ADDRESS, DWIM-META-MODEL::IP-ADDRESS 12:12:24 HG` [n=HG@xdslej006.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:13:24 since I guess you are not using those in your package, you can choose any of those 12:14:03 -!- ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [] 12:15:44 levy_: and now the notorious sb-debu:*DEFAULT-BACKTRACE-SIZE-LIMIT*. I searched for it in the sbcl sources and didn't find it. Do you use a patched sbcl? 12:16:00 sb-debug 12:17:24 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:30 kami-: you can ignore that 12:18:32 -!- kunley [n=wk@pdpc/supporter/active/kunley] has left #lisp 12:19:42 i have a few pending sbcl patches getting dusty on sbcl-devel 12:20:12 attila_lendvai: ok. 12:21:22 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-11-56.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:22:30 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:22:42 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 12:27:53 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32C2BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:28:03 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:28:15 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:29:56 levy_, attila_lendvai: I seem to have passed the first hurdle. When editing an instance with a html-text slot, I now get a javascript error [Exception... "'Error: Tried to register widget with id==_u806 but that id is already registered' when calling method: [nsIDOMEventListener::handleEvent]" nsresult: "0x8057001c (NS_ERROR_XPC_JS_THREW_JS_OBJECT)" location: "" data: no] 12:30:55 kami-: is ajax turned on? turn it off in that case... 12:31:00 kami-, that sounds like to dojo widgets are rendered with the same id 12:31:07 s/to/two 12:31:39 attila_lendvai, levy_: I will debug that later. my kids are back from school. I have to take care of them. Will be back online in an hour or so. 12:31:40 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp048.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Success] 12:32:18 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:32:28 attila_lendvai: :ajax-enabled #f 12:32:46 bbl 12:32:52 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:34:01 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 12:36:57 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:37:07 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:37:10 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:39:34 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279634139.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 12:39:52 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 12:39:55 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:49:30 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-1-29.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:04 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:50:21 merus [n=merus@pal-161-218.itap.purdue.edu] has joined #lisp 12:51:36 kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:36 s0ber [i=pie@220-136-226-86.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:12 benny` [n=benny@i577A1306.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:55:19 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1306.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:58:27 -!- serichsen [n=svante@hmbg-4d06cc51.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["on the road again..."] 12:58:54 -!- benny` is now known as benny 13:02:10 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 13:02:15 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-47.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:04:30 I am developing a numerical model in cl and it takes about 70 parameters which I need to provide a way for user to set them. Any suggestions? 13:05:24 It seems the simplest way is to read from a file. 13:06:47 wizard! 13:06:53 70 steps, of course 13:06:57 no back button! 13:07:05 avar [n=avar@wikipedia/avar] has joined #lisp 13:07:33 -!- kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:07:48 I can't find the section in the CLHS where the "#'" reader macro is documented. What is it called (or where is it in the CLHS) 13:07:58 leo2007: the easiest way is to have 70 special variables and allow the user to set them in a configuration file 13:08:02 clhs #' 13:08:02 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhb.htm 13:08:52 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.193.110] has quit [No route to host] 13:08:54 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:11:16 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:12:18 -!- Ogedei` [n=user@e178210201.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:13:00 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:14:48 fe[nl]ix: thanks 13:15:27 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-62-75-121.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:34 Morning folks 13:18:19 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1306.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:18:21 kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:22 hey gigamonkey 13:19:02 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:20:02 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:20:10 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 13:20:19 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:21:51 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:21:52 Yo Xach. What's happening? 13:22:31 *gigamonkey* had an eventful weekend: book out Friday, big Tai Chi tournament Saturday, 3rd b-day for kid on Sunday. 13:22:32 gigamonkey: I ordered a copy of your book! 13:22:39 Adlai: awesome. 13:22:49 sweep the leg! 13:23:02 gigamonkey: jwz noted the availability of the book in his blog 13:23:04 don't hold your breath until it arrives, though... 8-12 business days :( 13:23:13 Adlai: where'd you order it from? 13:23:26 Amazon UK 13:23:54 Adlai: You're not the one who emailed me about it this morning are you? 13:24:11 existentialmonk [n=user@64-148-11-244.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:18 not as far as I know 13:24:29 gigamonkey: did that higher-level vecto stuff make any sense to you? 13:24:32 I can't tell if Amazon is freaking people out unduly about how long it's going to take to get or if Apress is doing a bad job getting the book shipped. 13:24:45 Xach: I don't think I've taken much of a look at it yet. 13:24:54 Or if I did, it got swept out by the events of this weekend. 13:25:25 how did that typesetting war work out in the end? 13:25:45 From jwz: "If you're wondering what I'm doing in the same book as Knuth, try thinking of me as the comic relief." 13:25:56 Adlai: I lost in every possible way. Deets in a second. 13:25:56 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 13:27:36 Adlai: In the end they used Word. And they made some my mind strange typographical choices which they claim will increase sales in bookstores where people are browsing the book. 13:27:56 -!- kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:28:02 *Xach* wonders how tai chi tournaments are scored; mellowest? gracefullest? 13:28:11 Xach: pretty much. 13:28:31 Plus I do Push Hands which involves pushing people off balance. 13:28:38 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:28:55 *Xach* is trying to train isaac *away* from Push Hands 13:29:13 also, away from face-slap hands, scratch hands, and pinch hands... 13:29:23 Yeah. They have little kids divisions of Push Hands at the tournament. 13:29:50 Though, like all martial arts, the training puts it into a context and under a certain amount of control which is probably good for little kids. 13:29:56 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslej006.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:30:21 That said, while I'd like to teach my kid Push Hands, the tournament scene for the kids was a bit traumatizing for my taste. 13:30:56 Adlai: anyway, I get my books today so I haven't seen how it actually looks in print. 13:33:22 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:33:24 Xach: so I wonder whether it's jwz's blog mention or the Lambda the Ultimate post that's driving sales this morning. 13:35:22 *Xach* guesses LtU 13:36:13 Probably; Lot's of twitter traffic about the LtU post and it's on the front page of proggit. 13:37:14 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@host148-131-static.28-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 13:37:58 *Master-Luis* got an email from Amazon saying that they shipped Coders At Work. It usualy takes a week or so. 13:38:04 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit ["Leaving..."] 13:38:16 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:38:17 Geralt1 [n=Geralt@p5B32E311.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:38 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:39:32 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:41:20 Master-Luis: are you in Europe, the US, or elsewhere? 13:41:33 Europe, Portugal. 13:41:54 And which Amazon do you use? 13:42:48 gigamonkey: I just got an email saying they shipped mine too. 13:43:01 Amazon.com 13:43:25 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:43:34 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 13:44:42 gigamonkey: I haven't received any shipping mail from amazon.de so far 13:45:21 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-187.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 13:45:36 Why can't I convert plists to json if the are embedded inside clos objects? Is there a way to do that? 13:45:53 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:45:55 Or rather, I should ask, how can I convert embedded plists ... 13:46:33 nunb: i have some code for that in zs3 13:46:44 it is not quite general, but maybe it would help 13:47:09 benny [n=benny@i577A1306.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:47:35 gigamonkey: sorry about that, did I miss the deets? 13:47:49 http://pastebin.com/m1bd7c546 13:48:30 ah 13:48:43 *Xach* has never used cl-json 13:49:05 I would like the result to be "{types:\"Item, Bundle, Single, policy-bundle\", properties:{age : {valueType:'number'}}, items :null}" 13:51:28 Adlai: just about them using Word and making some strange choices. 13:51:44 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 13:51:51 minion: logs 13:51:51 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 13:51:58 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 13:52:34 tcr: could you take a look at this issue? http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.slime.devel/8981 13:52:38 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:53:04 tcr: 'unwinded' should be 'unwound', fwiw. 13:53:05 i'm looking at it right now 13:53:51 many thanks, stassats. 13:54:22 zer0c00l [n=user@117.199.135.103] has joined #lisp 13:54:36 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:54:43 by the way, pretty OT, but what do people think of Texinfo (in comparison to the real thing)? 13:54:53 "emacs --no-site-file --batch --eval '(progn (setq load-path (cons "." load-path)))' -f batch-byte-compile *.el" 13:55:06 what does '(progn (setq load-path (cons "." load-path)))' do in ^^ above command? 13:55:22 zer0c00l: first of all, you want #emacs 13:55:29 Adlai: i have emacs; 13:55:41 Adlai: i am trying to compile some el files; 13:55:50 second of all, it adds the directory from which you ran that command to the list of paths that Emacs searches for files. 13:56:09 "you want #emacs" = "you want to go to the IRC channel #emacs" 13:56:25 Adlai: ok :) 13:56:37 but yeah, it adds the current directory to the paths that emacs will search for files 13:56:55 Adlai: I like it simply it allows me to browse doc in Emacs with its great info mode. 13:57:03 leo2007: (setq font-lock-verbose nil) will do 13:57:12 in Common Lisp (which is the topic of this channel), you'd write that as (push "." load-path) 13:57:41 I'll reply to that mail too. 13:58:04 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:58:18 rpg [n=rpg@dhcp-91-035.inf.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:58:32 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 13:58:40 stassats: but I can't remember I have the same problem with sbcl. 13:59:20 *splittist* just gets 'Master-Luis' 13:59:24 Congrats! 13:59:34 HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:59:45 leo2007: what sbcl has to do with this? 14:00:28 stassats: I mean when I C-c C-k a file with sbcl I can't remember seeing a similar fontification message. 14:00:57 i don't see it either, it's too quick, but it shows up in *Messages* 14:01:33 ahh, i see. any idea it is so slow on ccl? 14:02:10 don't know, i was talking about ccl on linux-x8664, it's quick on it 14:02:39 ok, let me ask this on #ccl. 14:03:04 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 14:03:25 doesn't changing font-lock-verbose satisfy you? 14:03:46 stassats: yes 14:04:21 maybe you got too many compilation notes 14:04:51 Xach: hmmm, this seems apropos our discussion the other day -- http://code.google.com/p/pixelsnap/ 14:04:52 stassats: I was compiling a file with only 5 defconstants. no notes at all. 14:04:58 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 14:05:10 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:07:50 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:07:54 splittist: thanks. :) Glad I only had one glass of wine the other night. 14:08:04 -!- HET3 is now known as HET2 14:09:07 Master-Luis: I was pretty broken (later on) Monday morning, I have to admit... 14:09:11 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:09:26 leo2007: that sounds strange 14:11:09 splittist: it's hard to keep up with beach! 14:11:22 leo2007: i'd blame emacs itself first 14:14:10 *Xach* holds breath, updates slime 14:14:55 stassats: It was Emacs. I just tested it with sbcl to see the same problem. 14:15:25 does it go away with (setq font-lock-verbose nil) ? 14:16:47 stassats: yes, completely. 14:17:07 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:17:32 ok then 14:18:45 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181150089.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:19:43 roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 14:20:37 -!- Aszarsha [n=aszarsha@91-164-151-152.rev.libertysurf.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:21:03 Aszarsha [n=aszarsha@91-164-151-152.rev.libertysurf.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:16 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:22:01 sohail [n=sohail@99.251.84.57] has joined #lisp 14:24:03 *splittist* pictures Xach turning blue about now... 14:24:23 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 14:25:11 *Xach* updates successfully, does away with "big repl buffer slows down" problem 14:25:31 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:56 stassats: thank you for that. 14:26:08 is there some canonical way of adding a slot on the fly to an object short of invoking defclass again ? 14:26:38 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:45 *stassats* noticed today another "big repl buffer slow down" 14:26:48 Why do you want to add a slot? 14:27:03 -!- zer0c00l [n=user@117.199.135.103] has left #lisp 14:27:09 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:27:20 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:27:28 well i am trying to create a graph of objects from some data I am reading from a file 14:27:37 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 14:27:46 Ok, and which part of that involves adding a slot? 14:27:49 I wanted to be able to declare classes on the fly and add slots as I encounter them in the data 14:27:51 stassats: that's fixed (FSVO)? Awesome. Now to train myself out of C-c M-o ing constantly. 14:28:16 daw: It sounds like you're probably trying to do the wrong thing here. 14:28:57 Dawgmatix_: When your data has no (predefined) structure, dictionaries can be the most appropriate solution. 14:29:11 pkhuong: it's fixed while at the prompt, but navigating in the buffer is slow 14:29:16 true pkhuong, but i was trying to leverage inheritance ... 14:30:25 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:41 Dawgmatix_: If you have the time and want to have some fun, this might be a fun job for the MOP --- dictionaries that are addressed like slots... 14:31:11 could you elaborate rpg ? 14:31:22 are you talking about python / javascript style classes ? 14:31:35 Dawgmatix_: first of all, Python doesn't use prototyping OO 14:31:49 second of all, Javascript doesn't have classes 14:31:53 :) 14:31:54 Pascal Costanza had a neat example of using the MOP to define python-like classes in CLOS in his tutorial at ILC 2009. 14:31:54 Dawgmatix_: woah woah. Python and javascript aren't particularly alike. 14:32:08 and most importantly -- if you feel adventurous, you could try using Sheeple. 14:32:10 Note that I didn't say anything about prototyping... 14:32:26 i just meant the ability to add arbitrary slots at anytime 14:32:30 Pascal is a god :) 14:32:36 and teaches at my university >:) 14:32:36 I forgot about sheeple. Haven't looked at it lately. 14:32:38 Dawgmatix_: you can't do that in CLOS without redefining th ecleass. 14:32:44 (afaik both python and javascript are similar in that regard) 14:32:55 rpg: It's been undergoing pretty heavy development lately. 14:33:32 Dawgmatix_: if you have a CLOS class whose slots are like keys in a hash table (like in perl objects), then you can do what you want more easily, I believe. 14:33:38 phf [n=user@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 14:33:50 s/class/metaclass/ 14:34:03 okay 14:34:22 Note that this is a lot more work than just changing your mind and using hash tables to make your graph of objects, but it might be more fun and educational. 14:34:47 You know better than me whether "fun and educational" beats "I can do this simply, reliably, and quickly" in this case. 14:34:57 :) 14:35:27 FWIW, I believe that you could do this (with prototype inheritance) in the KR object system that was built as part of the Garnet UI prototyping project. 14:35:31 maybe not for this project. but i have been working through the amop book, and could perhaps use this as an exercise in sometime 14:36:00 Dawgmatix_: Sheeple would love beta testers. 14:36:04 14:36:22 am reading about sheeple adlai :) 14:36:36 cool! let me know if you have any questions. 14:37:32 This reminds me --- I should give a talk about Garnet at the tc-lispers meeting sometime. It's a really impressive piece of Lost Lisp Art. 14:38:07 mcspiff [n=user@142.177.72.209] has joined #lisp 14:38:32 tc-lispers ? 14:38:50 ah twin cities 14:38:57 "twin cities" = Minneapolis + St Paul 14:39:33 i should look into the ny lisp meetups 14:39:46 have never attended, but now that i am unemployed theres no excuse not to 14:40:53 turns out, slow repl buffer navigation is another emacs's fault, doesn't like long line 14:42:11 -!- jteich [n=jensteic@p548EFD70.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 14:42:37 only 30k characters long 14:43:12 Adlai: Still no complaints about our naming from Buda and Pest! 14:43:41 hungarians don't lisp 14:43:43 I don't know if Pascal's MOP and CLOS tutorial examples are on the web somewhere.... 14:43:58 *Adlai* raises an eyebrow at rpg 14:44:12 *rpg* is having a "My Fair Lady" moment about Xach's remark... 14:44:26 *Adlai* actually can't raise an eyebrow, but he can raise both while moving one down, which has the same general effect. 14:45:28 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 14:46:09 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:16 BTW, Pascal has some new papers about CL and software transactional memory that seem pretty tasty... 14:47:29 jteich [n=jensteic@p548EFD70.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:47 rpg: what did you mean about "our naming"? 14:50:48 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 14:52:04 Adlai: I was just kidding, about the fact that we're not the only twin cities out there. 14:52:38 e.g. Budapest 14:52:59 *rpg* is badly jet-lagged and having even more difficulty than usual in staying on topic. 14:53:19 also lewiston/auburn 14:53:41 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6CFA8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 14:53:55 rpg: nothing a deep-fried Mars Bar/pizza etc. won't cure 14:53:57 newbie [n=pepone@91.117.11.105] has joined #lisp 14:53:58 rpg: I want MOP tutorial/samples! :D 14:54:21 -!- newbie is now known as pepone 14:54:25 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:54:28 <_3b> splittist: so is that pizza deep fried before or after adding the mars bar topping? 14:54:31 weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:54:32 mishoo: He was giving them out freely at ILC. I bet he'd be fine with posting them... 14:54:58 splittist: I've already been to the State Fair for this year. And, anyway, I'm in Europe now.... 14:55:02 rpg: despite my knowing what "tc" stands for, and cooperating with sykopomp on Sheeple, I'm actually quite far away from there... 14:55:06 *levy_* wonders about what do you guys talk about Budapest and/or hungarians 14:55:07 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 14:55:36 well --- actually in Scotland, which is Europe when looked at from my side of the pond, anyway. 14:55:45 Speaking of which --- any lispers in Edinburgh? 14:55:51 -!- roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 14:56:17 s/talk/mean/ 14:56:27 scotland invented the deep fried mars bar 14:57:12 levy_: Buda and Pest are twin cities too. I think the comment about hungarians was a joke. 14:57:36 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181150089.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:58:16 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [] 15:01:46 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.177.72.209] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:01:49 mcspiff` [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:51 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:08 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-9-187.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:16 rpg: several, but rarely if ever here 15:03:21 jsnell: I suppose the Scotch egg is in the same equivalence class as a deep fried mars bar. 15:03:51 a hard-boiled egg in parentheses of bacon. 15:03:52 pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-147-255.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:34 -!- pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-147-255.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:04:46 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.26.187] has joined #lisp 15:07:12 marioxcc` [n=user@200.92.164.103] has joined #lisp 15:07:39 -!- marioxcc` [n=user@200.92.164.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:08:28 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.164.103] has joined #lisp 15:08:35 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:08:43 splittist: you've been at the meeting? 15:10:43 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:10:46 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-5-124.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:10:46 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 15:11:19 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:12:36 -!- prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:13:46 -!- mcspiff` [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:14:07 tcr: yes 15:14:22 cmm: are you in Edinburgh? 15:16:31 rpg: I hope we can put sublists in it? 15:16:36 emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-11-230.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:17:11 matimago: Sorry, probably jetlag, what is "it"? 15:17:19 The Scotch egg ;-) 15:17:40 -!- amaron [n=amaron@93.86.161.198] has quit ["leaving"] 15:17:40 matimago: I thought so! But then I thought I was the only person being silly right now. 15:18:04 *Adlai* must go be silly elsewhere. Back later. 15:18:44 is there an existing implementation of `mapf' -- a version of `map' where the elements of the sequences are treated as setf-able places? 15:18:47 rpg: we could make a variant of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I-2iRAkW5g ... 15:21:40 Coliveira [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has joined #lisp 15:22:10 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has left #lisp 15:23:29 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:24:03 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6CFA8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:50 is this correct: (class-name (sb-pcl::class-prototype (find-class 'standard-class))) -> unbound slot 15:24:57 should it be nil instead? 15:26:02 nil on sbcl 1.0.29 :) 15:26:05 fwiw 15:27:17 I'm running 1.0.30.46 15:27:17 so this is a new feature :-) 15:27:29 heh. nice. 15:29:04 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has joined #lisp 15:29:47 hello 15:30:12 I get an unbound slot error on 1.0.29 15:30:48 hello hefner 15:30:55 hello 15:32:04 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:32:17 rpg: no, I just remember that Tim Bradshaw is :) 15:32:34 levy_ sorry: 1.0.23 is the latest version I have that returns nil, my 1.0.29 has the unbound slot condition. 15:33:03 cmm: thanks. 15:33:21 Anyone going to the ICAPS conference in Thessaloniki next week? 15:33:45 rpg: H4ns seems to be in that neighborhood at the moment 15:33:53 rpg: i don't know for what purpose, or for how long 15:34:19 Xach: sadly, I believe that he and I would at best be able to wave at each other in the airport, as he leaves and I come in. 15:35:15 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 15:35:37 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:37:35 -!- KingNato [n=patno@195.149.143.194] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 15:39:06 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:40:56 splittist: Why didn't you come to say hello to me? 15:41:03 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-253-255.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:41:27 the two of you were definitely at the same table 15:42:02 levy_: hmm prototype? 15:42:07 come to think of it, it was when we two were discussing the constraint propagation thing. selective amnesia? :-) 15:42:15 levy_: whats the new feature? 15:43:09 v0|d, the unbound slot, instead of nil 15:43:19 v0|d, the new feature is just a joke 15:43:25 levy_: okk 15:44:08 emacs-dwim: i wont advise that, there are functional data structures out there. 15:44:16 jsnell: Huh 15:44:51 jsnell: So how was the dinner? I feel pretty much disappointed of the event because I hadn't had the chance to stay for it 15:45:42 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 15:46:37 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:47:02 tcr: you just edited me out (: 15:47:02 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:25 food wasn't anything to write home about (but never is). really the main part of the event is the socializing outside the talks. so dinner + the subsequent move to the bar after they kicked us out was really good 15:48:19 Hm it might have made sense to bridge over the two hours of the dinner and wait for your at the bar. 15:48:26 jsnell: hehe 15:48:30 did you have the desert? 15:48:46 -!- ASau [n=user@host184-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 15:48:55 generally in the gatherings we have a special desert for everyone. 15:49:21 splittist: I didn't indent to! Frankly, my adrenaline level was too high to be fully aware of the environment 15:49:45 ie this ->http://tinyurl.com/o3xbct 15:49:59 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-98-210-12-88.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:01 -!- younder [n=jthing@251.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 15:51:14 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:51:40 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:52:43 tcr: no worries. Next time I'll make sure you remember me... (; 15:53:29 You should wear a t-shirt with that smiley. Then it could only be you, antifuchs, or pkhuong 15:53:54 Edward_ [i=Ed@81.249.195.126] has joined #lisp 15:54:24 Levenson1 [n=alex@95.59.95.100] has joined #lisp 15:55:51 sellout [n=greg@dhcp-147-137.harvard.edu] has joined #lisp 15:56:18 antifuchs does not wink! 15:58:39 *hefner* wonders if and how long it will take for that to propagate to http://www.googlism.com/index.htm?ism=antifuchs&type=1 16:00:32 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 16:01:00 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest72236 16:01:19 younder [n=jthing@251.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:01:20 splittist: you were at ECLM? 16:01:25 -!- Levenson1 [n=alex@95.59.95.100] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:02:00 Adlai: yes. I'm sure there will be photos proving it. (Isn't that what The Gimp is for?) 16:02:09 Levenson1 [n=alex@95.59.95.100] has joined #lisp 16:02:17 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 16:02:24 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:02:24 splittist: there's also http://eclm2009.agharta.de/ 16:02:27 Adlai: We had no chance to talk either, but damn, you're young. And I initially thought I could be the youngest 16:02:38 tcr: I'm younger than "Piano" 16:02:45 *Adlai* back later -- 90 minutes, movie. 16:02:59 *rpg* is off to the Scotch Whiskey society... 16:03:12 bye... 16:03:16 -!- rpg [n=rpg@dhcp-91-035.inf.ed.ac.uk] has quit [] 16:04:44 I hope rpg actually goes to the Whisky (no 'e') society... 16:07:03 v0|d: obviously modifying functional data structures is a bad idea, but what about when i need to modify a data structure? Is it somehow more virtuous to use loop rather than map? 16:07:23 emacs-dwim: of course 16:07:32 emacs-dwim: but setf the result of map 16:07:36 splittist: indeed, it's Scotch Whisky and Irish Whiskey innit :) 16:07:38 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 16:07:57 emacs-dwim: if this doesnt work for you, you need somehow a function data structures 16:08:14 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:21 khumba [n=khumba@142.231.72.223] has joined #lisp 16:08:21 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 16:08:23 emacs-dwim: that abstracts the setf in some way like monads. 16:08:50 drewc: http://www.boozingear.com/blog/2007/08/29/confusion-over-whiskey-vs-whisky-%E2%80%93-what%E2%80%99s-in-a-name/ 16:09:04 -!- Levenson [n=alex@95.59.104.234] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:09:18 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:10:16 Did someone say monads? 16:10:17 :D 16:10:35 And: http://thepour.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/04/whiskey-versus-whisky/ 16:10:36 gigamonkey: have you stopped automatically updating the charts? 16:10:40 -!- jlf [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has left #lisp 16:10:51 Xach: check now. 16:11:06 only at 10 past, then? 16:11:06 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 16:11:33 Only when poked. (I update them obsessively but don't always remember to push them up to gigamonkeys.com.) 16:11:56 ah 16:11:58 The tweet chart is not entirely up to date because my twitter scraping code is not robust in the face of twitter flakiness. 16:12:23 Hmm, is it possible for CLOS methods to be overloaded by return value? 16:12:49 Makoryu: no. 16:12:54 Aww. 16:12:59 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:13:11 any pictures from eclm? 16:13:33 Makoryu: Does any language support that? What's your use case? 16:13:39 v0|d: http://www.cl-http.org:8002/pics/ECLM2009/index.html 16:13:53 stassats: wonderful thnx. 16:13:56 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:13:57 tcr: Well.... Haskell does. But then, it's Haskell. 16:14:02 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-zmsgwtajqxojvnck] has joined #lisp 16:14:07 stassats anuway there could be names with those pics ? :D 16:14:24 i went through those earlier but had no idea who I was looking at 16:14:25 milanj [n=milan@93.87.193.141] has joined #lisp 16:14:42 v0|d: are you really just a Haskell spy? 16:14:54 Makoryu: Ah right 16:15:19 Makoryu: Notice that specializing in CLOS is run-time dispatching, not something that happens at compile-time. 16:15:27 emacs-dwim: haha 16:15:31 tcr: I think Ada does too. 16:15:54 emacs-dwim: they'r from us, not different. 16:15:57 tcr: I know. It should still be possible to build such a system, though. 16:15:57 stassats: Will you take care of my autodoc comments? (Does not need to be today, just so I know you do :)) 16:16:01 But I don't really know about Ada so don't trust me. 16:16:34 Makoryu: I'm not sure it makes much sense in a dynamic language 16:16:46 I wrote a 30 000 line ADA program in it while in the millitary 16:16:55 tcr: Yeah, you can always just use a 300-line macro to fake it 16:17:03 Haven't used it much since though 16:17:26 wow most lispers have gray hair, this explain why i have some now. 16:17:31 younder: So does it really support overloading a function according to return type? 16:17:36 Makoryu: FSVO"fake" 16:17:47 tcr: Okay, s/fake/implement/ 16:18:06 Makoryu: In ADA 94 yes, not in the original spec 16:18:09 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:18:16 tcr: i will, yes 16:18:23 younder: Yeah, the original lacked generics altogether, didn't it? 16:18:30 Makoryu: yes 16:21:47 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:23:09 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:23:32 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:48 hm i wonder why the project used in eclm has such a bad resolution. 320x200? huh. 16:28:45 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 16:29:39 Chrome for ubuntu rocks. 16:29:48 -!- Geralt1 [n=Geralt@p5B32E311.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:30:46 Amazing how much faster it is running my web app's. 16:31:04 Geralt [n=Geralt@91.50.227.17] has joined #lisp 16:31:59 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:34:03 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:34:17 younder, is there a binary release? 16:34:21 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:34:24 or shall I compile it? 16:34:40 ruediger [n=ruediger@93.82.2.204] has joined #lisp 16:34:49 tagac [n=user@141.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:35:35 levy_: Yes, but the support for plugin's like flash is unstable and cause crashes 16:36:39 younder: just like it is used to be. 16:37:10 i wonder if there will be version of silverlight on linux. 16:37:24 tcr: i still can't see how autodoc can be called from *slime-fontify* buffer 16:40:05 hmm, this debian package install for google chrome did work 16:40:13 and chrome is really fast 16:40:21 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.214.121] has joined #lisp 16:41:47 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:53 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:21 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 16:42:46 well, there's one way with idle timer from eldoc 16:42:53 but only once 16:43:10 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:43:39 or i forgot how idle timers work 16:44:08 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1306.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:44:36 chrome's rendering engine does not render Courier New... 16:45:29 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-10-244.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 16:45:30 Surely the font is not a product of the engine 16:45:55 startup/shutdown can't be faster than that 16:46:05 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:46:40 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.71.223] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:46:47 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.115.199.68] has joined #lisp 16:46:48 stassats: *slime-fontify* persists after `slime-fontify-string' run with the form of the last invocation 16:46:59 is there a non-proportional font that all browser *must* support? 16:47:06 i know 16:47:16 I want to iterate over a list and have both the element index and the element itself available to me. Is something like (loop for i from 0 to (length list) for obj = (elt i list) ...) the easiest way, or is there a special case for this? 16:47:24 but autodoc is called only if you hit space or from eldoc 16:47:42 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.163.214.130] has joined #lisp 16:48:05 koning_robot: (loop for element in list for index from 0 ... ) 16:48:10 koning_robot: http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/loop.html 16:48:14 koning_robot: rtfm 16:48:18 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 16:48:36 koning_robot: (loop for element in list as index from 0 ...) "as" is a nice alternative to "for" 16:48:57 you can reserve "for" for the primary iteration variable 16:49:12 v0|d: be nice. 16:49:19 sa index? 16:49:26 as 16:49:36 hefner: i dont have a nicer abbreviation for this. 16:49:42 hefner: help me if you can. 16:49:47 ok thank you.. i thought the hyperspec was the fucking manual, but i couldn't figure it out from there 16:49:52 *stassats* likes uniformity more than trying to look like english 16:49:54 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 16:52:02 (loop for element in list for index UPfrom 0 ...) 16:52:17 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 16:52:22 so as is a synonym for for? 16:52:27 now that looks more familiar 16:52:43 jteich: you know that's not necessary, right? 16:53:09 *dlowe* likes to make semantic distinctions between semantically distinct operations 16:53:16 I remember sbcl complaining in a similar case 16:53:17 Kenjin_ [n=Kenjin@89.181.68.0] has joined #lisp 16:54:07 but maybe I am wrong and it was without list iteration 16:54:41 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 16:55:31 -!- phf [n=user@host.icnfull.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:55:56 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Client Quit] 16:56:09 -!- xan [n=xan@193.173.25.98] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:56:13 upfrom is a equivalent to from 16:56:33 and there's no upfrom in my dictionary 16:56:36 gonzojive [n=red@DN800cf70f.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 16:57:27 there is a upto which includes the last number in a range 16:57:37 -!- sellout [n=greg@dhcp-147-137.harvard.edu] has quit [] 16:58:45 stassats: I'm not sure what triggered it. 16:59:03 marioxcc` [n=user@200.92.164.103] has joined #lisp 16:59:13 loop isn't English, it just looks like it. It's semantics are much more strict 16:59:23 stassats: Perhaps some older emacs version where the advice on eldoc-display-message-no-interference-p does nothing 16:59:41 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.26.187] has left #lisp 16:59:50 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.164.103] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:59:50 maybe it's better then to turn eldoc off in that buffer? 17:00:08 stassats: I think it's bad that enabling lisp-mode enables all kind of slime magic 17:00:16 -!- marioxcc` is now known as marioxcc 17:00:17 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-69-128.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:00:46 -!- marioxcc is now known as Guest36824 17:01:31 -!- Guest36824 is now known as marioxcc` 17:01:54 -!- marioxcc` is now known as marioxcc 17:03:12 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:04:31 stassats: We shouldn't set it at all. Just set the right syntax-table, and bind `major-mode' to 'lisp-mode 17:05:00 and explaining in a comment why 17:06:24 The bit about refactoring slime-use-autodoc still seems like a good idea 17:07:01 -!- arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:08:07 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:32 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:09:03 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@89.181.68.0] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:14:06 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has quit ["Valete!"] 17:17:16 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-11-56.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 17:17:58 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-108-111.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:19:58 setting major-mode and calling (lisp-mode-variables t) seems to do the trick 17:21:12 -!- merus [n=merus@pal-161-218.itap.purdue.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:21:34 p0a [n=user@athedsl-379704.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:21:52 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 17:22:09 for font-lock ? 17:22:14 yes 17:22:26 seems hackish, does 20x have lisp-mode-variables, too? 17:22:33 how do you guys recommend dealing with the issue of global variables not being shared across threads? 17:22:50 20x isn't supported, according to the manual 17:22:56 then 21 17:23:00 i'll try with 21 now 17:23:15 sykopomp: Implementations provide a way to specify the default bindings on thread spawning 17:23:43 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:23:47 21 does have it 17:24:17 tcr: but if I change the value in one thread, another thread won't see the new binding, correct? 17:24:31 Yes 17:24:36 I'm wondering more if I should worry about that, or if it's "the right thing" to not let threads affect each other in such a way. 17:24:49 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:24:51 If you can avoid it, better avoid it! 17:24:51 Isn't there an elisp-to-CL compiler yet? 17:24:58 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:53 Makoryu: there's the :cl thing elisp has which may be fairly easy to port, but elisp's dynamic binding and lack of package system probably provide some issues for automatic conversion. 17:26:04 stassats: Just don't forget an elabatore comment 17:26:08 tcr: what is this hyperdoc thing I heard mentioned, by teh way? sounds exciting! 17:26:12 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 17:26:13 v0|d: emacs-lisp already has `for var being the elements of-ref sequence' (and my actual application was for emacs) so i'll just use that.. 17:26:48 emacs-dwim: ah ok. 17:26:54 tcr: don't know how elaborate it is, but it is there 17:27:20 quick unrelated question: Is there a way on cliki to check when a particular revision of an entry was created? 17:27:36 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-eqguxdknkslplbpk] has joined #lisp 17:28:31 sykopomp: It allows libraries to register documentation, so you have general documentation retrieval on key stroke 17:29:19 tcr: that's fantastic :) 17:29:31 does it use a slime-specific method, or does it use standard docstrings? 17:31:18 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:31:29 sykopomp: It's just a way to compute an url for a symbol. It's to access html documentation. 17:31:45 It's not slime-specific, any IDE can (and hopefully will) make use of it 17:32:20 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.164.103] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:32:41 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.164.103] has joined #lisp 17:32:45 sykopomp: ^ Naturally. Actually I figured that would be the biggest issue 17:32:59 No matter.... 17:34:33 kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:53 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Absquatulandus sum"] 17:35:27 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 17:36:04 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 17:37:53 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.163.214.130] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:37:53 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 17:38:09 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.224.39] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:38:39 milanj- [n=milan@212.200.194.165] has joined #lisp 17:39:21 is there a package to save/load configuration files? 17:39:28 -!- Aszarsha [n=aszarsha@91-164-151-152.rev.libertysurf.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:39:40 clhs load 17:39:40 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_load.htm 17:39:47 all you need! 17:40:00 leo2007: http://www.cliki.net/trivial-configuration-parser 17:40:08 thanks 17:40:11 well, and print, of course 17:46:03 paw` [n=paw`@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 17:46:03 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:46:08 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.193.141] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:47:11 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-139-100.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 17:48:43 lispm [n=joswig@e177123032.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:50:54 hi lispm, nice pictures from ECLM. I see that I left too early, missed sundown 17:51:04 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:51:06 http://lispm.dyndns.org/news?ID=NEWS-2009-09-15-1 17:51:17 the report, initial version 17:51:42 the evening had some nice colors 17:52:02 Geralt [n=Geralt@91.50.227.17] has joined #lisp 17:54:01 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:54:23 I still wish the new book by Nick Levine had an alligator or a crocodile as cover animal 17:54:27 and not an animal 17:54:33 like the Emu 17:55:02 the alligator survived for millions of years, with no changes 17:55:22 and the alligator tends to eat newer species with no problem 17:56:42 it is no coincidence the shell of a horseshoe crab is curved like a parenthesis 17:56:54 Horseshoe crabs are great 17:57:01 *Xach* also thinks a coelecanth looks a little like a lisp alien 17:57:19 plops [n=user@pD9E68A0F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:57:34 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.214.121] has left #lisp 17:57:57 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.214.121] has joined #lisp 17:58:05 nice report lispm, i wished that someone videotaped some of talks ... 17:58:53 Hang on, do we know what the cover of Levine's book is going to be. Or you just speculating? 17:59:22 http://lispm.dyndns.org/standard-output/IMG_6022.jpg 17:59:28 there it is 17:59:42 Ah. Haven't looked at Planet Lisp lately. 17:59:49 lispm: what was the explanation for the emu? 18:00:11 gigamonkey, a picture from my ECLM report: http://lispm.dyndns.org/news?ID=NEWS-2009-09-15-1 18:01:01 sykopomp: they o'really explained him an extensive selection process and then sended him the picture ;-) 18:01:10 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-1-29.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:01:26 Did he say anything else about how the book is going? 18:01:49 his web site has four chapters online 18:02:06 he was mentioning sales numbers for PCL 18:02:21 based on that PCL would not have been published by o'really 18:02:38 I have to express my disappointment that lisp books tend to use commercial lisps, which is possibly not the best way to encourage hobbyists >_> 18:02:39 like less than 10k books? 18:02:47 (or the casually curious) 18:02:57 gigamonkey, I would expect large sales numbers of PCL 18:03:03 asked for a release date he answered that he first wants to finish writing 18:03:27 large->larger 18:03:50 sykopomp: my excuse is when I wrote PCL only CLISP ran on Windows and it had no threads so I couldn't do the web chapter. 18:03:58 Plus Franz was sort of the one that put me up to writing the book. 18:03:59 lispm: did we have lunch together? 18:04:22 lispm: no, it's less than 10k. 18:04:24 sykopomp: Nick uses several Lisps in his book 18:04:35 lispm: ACL and LispWorks, right? ;) 18:04:40 perhaps Scieneer, too? 18:04:41 :P 18:04:49 sykopomp, ??? 18:04:54 sykopomp: he said he used SBCL for something. 18:05:09 My impression is that O'Reilly would be happy to publish a book that sells over 7k copies. 18:05:10 the examples I saw didn't even bother using portable libraries for simple things like threads. 18:05:20 it was just (require :mp) :\ 18:05:28 Allegro, Clozure CL, SBCL, LispWorks, Clojure 18:05:29 *gigamonkey* got that impression by talking to the O'Reilly editor in charge of Nick's book. 18:05:42 sykopomp: Allegro, Clozure CL, SBCL, LispWorks, Clojure 18:05:49 Nick showed a slide with things o'Reilly is not interested in. One explicid point was 'themes that sold bad in the past (like Lisp)' 18:05:59 gigamonkey: it would be pretty great if it sold that many copies, yeah :) 18:06:00 sykopomp: which makes it three free Lisps and two commercial ones 18:06:01 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:04 seems like this would lead to a useless grab bag of implementation-specific trivia and reinforce the worst preconceptions about CL implementation divergence and lack of libraries 18:06:05 lispm: was Nick implying that O'Reilly thinks his book is going to substantially outsell PCL? 18:06:08 lispm: and one non-lisp 18:06:56 master-luis, I don't think so 18:06:59 hefner: It's certainly important to be at least sort of aware of different implementations' quirks, but I'm not sure using them non-portably is the best way to go about it :\ 18:07:35 lispm: were you the one with a big canon lens? 18:07:45 no 18:07:51 Ah, OK. 18:07:58 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:08:03 lispm: did we meet? 18:08:10 sykopomp: yeah. seems pointless to me. 18:08:11 I was there 18:08:33 lispm: was, that 'no' to me or Master-Luis? 18:08:36 right, I'm just trying to remember who I met... 18:09:05 Adlai: nice talk. I wish more talks had been like that. You know, about Common Lisp. 18:09:16 gigamonkey: I don't know what O'really expects, I haven't asked, but I got the impression that they expect higher sales numbers for their books 18:09:36 gigamonkey: Nick stress several times that they are driven by numbers 18:09:38 Well, I'll be interested to see if the market for Lisp books has really grown that substantially. 18:09:57 I think it will be difficult to outsell PCL 18:10:00 (And that PCL has somehow failed to pick up any growth there has been.) 18:10:13 *hefner* wonders how many people use commercial lisps versus free lisps, and how to adjust for the number doing serious work (whatever that is) 18:10:18 Master-Luis: hmm thank you... I'm not sure how much my talk was about CL though, I was aiming it more towards explaining "object-based" OO and hoping that the lightningness would blow people away. 18:10:20 maybe with some heavy marketing 18:10:27 Having just joined, can't figure out what book you're talking about? 18:10:37 antoszka: review logs. 18:10:40 minion: logs 18:10:41 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 18:10:48 http://lisp-book.org/contents/ 18:10:54 Lisp outside the box 18:10:57 antoszka: Nick Levine is writing another book about Lisp, and O'Reilly is publishing. 18:11:16 Xach: I'm grepping them visually, I wouldn't have asked had I managed to fish it out. 18:11:19 Adlai: thx. 18:11:21 lispm:  18:12:26 bad_alloc [n=marvin@HSI-KBW-091-089-218-056.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 18:12:32 evening 18:12:47 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-108-111.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:13:36 evening 18:14:25 How do i collect the return value of the else branch of an if clause in a loop that just passes the argument? (i guess that's not very clear, so here's an example: http://codepad.org/vfNJrsvB) 18:14:56 bad_alloc: broken link... 18:15:03 milanj-: most of the talks weren't good 18:15:07 but I think you can do something like this: 18:15:17 works for me, but wait i'll repaste 18:15:29 bad_alloc: use http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp 18:15:38 http://codepad.org/464BNJKm 18:15:41 Adlai: remove ) 18:15:52 tcr: because they were not SLIME users? 18:15:53 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 18:16:04 bad_alloc pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87110 18:16:11 bad_alloc: don't put parens around input 18:16:16 bad_alloc: afair, you need finally clause. 18:16:23 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:16:27 and you don't need "into output" 18:16:30 Xach: it is still recognized as else branch? 18:16:30 The Semantic Web talk was mind-boggingly boring. :-/ 18:16:39 lispm: No because they were badly presented 18:16:42 bad_alloc: yes. 18:16:43 *Adlai* palms face 18:16:44 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 18:16:48 stassats: thanks. 18:16:55 Xach: it's bogus code, only the if was important but thanks :) 18:17:01 tcr: not loud enough? 18:17:21 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 18:17:47 bad_alloc: you can have any form in either branch of an IF 18:18:15 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:18:18 bad_alloc: yeah, that code is pretty bogus. what's the real code look like? 18:18:42 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 18:19:08 comments in german 18:19:34 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:45 lispm: I enjoyed the talks before the lunch, but I found the later ones be mostly disappointing. You feel otherwise? 18:20:54 tcr: I really liked the talk about GDSP etc 18:21:17 although that might just be because I found Butterfly interesting 18:21:20 that's true, but I still think it was badly presented 18:21:22 Xach: there must be thousands of ways to improve that mess but it'll do fine for now 18:21:53 bad_alloc: instead of IF, you could also do: collect (and input (work-with input)) 18:22:14 bad_alloc: since the else branch will be nil. in that case. but if it's really bogus, it's hard to know if the advice is applicable. 18:22:26 when input collect (work-with input) 18:22:26 adlai: the talk mostly consisted of shuffling windows (and I didn't quite come along his american dialect) 18:22:44 stassats: that would omit nils in the collected list. 18:22:55 tcr: haha very true, I felt so glad to be a StumpWM user after that talk 18:22:57 stassats: (which might be desirable, but it's not what the pasted code would do...) 18:23:14 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:23:24 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:36 *Adlai* kept thinking, "Just do a ^Tgo^T2..." 18:23:52 -!- khumba [n=khumba@142.231.72.223] has quit ["lunch lunch lunch..."] 18:23:58 Adlai: I liked Martin Simmon's talk who presented calmly and precisely 18:24:20 *stassats* rarely sees good talks 18:24:30 stassats: you must have missed my lightning talk then! :P 18:25:02 i did, and the whole ECLM too 18:25:17 Xach: sorry, i've jutst notece, tht ive forgotten the link to the real code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/87114#1 (you may see some serious crap) 18:25:42 tcr: yes, that talk got me interested enough to spend almost half of dinner talking with Dave Fox (one of the other LW folks who came) 18:26:07 -!- Guest72236 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 18:26:17 bad_alloc: firstly, you don't need the PROGN when you only have one form. 18:26:26 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["WeeChat 0.3.0"] 18:26:34 right 18:26:37 bad_alloc: you don't need "collect into" or "finally" 18:26:48 what's NOR? 18:26:48 for counter from 0 18:26:49 ditto what Xach said. 18:26:58 (car (cddr ... = (caddr 18:26:59 Martin Simmon's talk was my favourite. Wish it had more details though. 18:27:03 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 18:27:32 to my defense: this code has been growing for quite some time :( 18:27:36 bad_alloc: just 'collect' will do. 18:27:43 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:27:53 bad_alloc: delete it and write anew 18:27:58 remember, the ECLM is mostly for users reporting what they are doing with Lisp 18:28:25 bad_alloc: to your defense, I have almost 1k LOC lying around that look worse than that and I'm afraid to go back and change. 18:28:27 stassats:you're probably right 18:28:30 messing too much with the cadediddadedidedddedars is usually a bad sign. 18:28:39 no_mind [i=7aa3f9ea@gateway/web/freenode/x-flnrthsunejjxxsv] has joined #lisp 18:28:41 ie, everybody has some junk that needs fixing :) 18:29:15 Master-Luis: what did you like about my talk? 18:29:33 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-379704.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 18:29:34 (was it the fact that Sheeple uses trivial-garbage?) 18:29:45 Adlai: you should ask "what you didn't like" 18:29:50 to improve next time 18:30:21 stassats: that's the next question... I asked this first because he mentioned that he liked my talk. 18:31:44 Adlai: it was about language stuff and I can check it out, unlike the other commercial apps. :) 18:32:43 lispm: Yeah it was really cool to see actual applications written in Lisp 18:32:54 Master-Luis: he probably failed to mention that sheeple is hellishly slow right now :P 18:33:00 Adlai: amirite 18:33:12 bad_alloc: there are also loop conditionals like (loop for item in (list 1 nil 2 nil 3) when item collect item) -> (1 2 3) 18:33:46 Adlai: OTOH, I didn't quite get what it was good for. But I guess that would be hard to do in 5 minutes. 18:34:03 Master-Luis: I guess you just have to try it out then... 18:34:24 jteich: yeah but the items are a bit complex already [like ((A . 0.01) (LVL1 . nil) nil)] does when cover that too? 18:34:31 sykopomp: of course not, I was too busy explaining that it was broken and under construction 18:34:37 :D 18:35:02 Master-Luis: it's good for the same things class OO is good for, mostly, except in some corner cases. 18:35:25 the biggest win is how dynamic it is during development, so it's quite nice to incrementally build apps with. 18:35:40 somebody in here was asking some questions earlier about adding slots to an object without redefining the class... 18:35:42 that's about the gist of it. There's some much more verbose examples, of course. 18:35:52 that kind of operation is completely standard practice in Sheeple. 18:35:59 (or most object-based systems) 18:36:24 Adlai: I was a bit confused when you started talking about trivial-garbage details. I was trying to picture the code but my brain hit a major page fault. :-) 18:36:36 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:36:47 Yeah, it probably naturally supports what a plist-mixin is usually used for 18:37:08 bad_alloc: write a test function first which solves the condition inside the loop and try it with various cases then rewrite the loop 18:37:16 Master-Luis: ah, I should pull together all the changes which I've made to TG... I'll do that soon :) 18:37:19 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:37:37 *Adlai* is reading the "Lisp Outside the Box" previews right now 18:37:53 how's it looking? 18:37:54 Or write the accumulation yourself, outside the loop, either with PUSH/NREVERSE or a collect macro. 18:38:33 bad_alloc: when things start to become complex, cut them into pieces 18:38:43 nreverse sets the argument to the new value right? 18:38:57 no 18:39:31 (nreverse '(1 2 3)) -> (3 2 1) 18:39:53 very bad example, youre modifying literal data 18:39:54 -!- futuranon [n=futurano@67-207-144-254.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit ["leaving"] 18:40:06 futuranon [n=futurano@67-207-144-254.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 18:40:06 ok 18:40:11 bad_alloc: (let ((a '(1 2 3))) (values (nreverse a) a)) => (3 2 1) (1) 18:40:15 -!- futuranon [n=futurano@67-207-144-254.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:40:21 that would be the output on some (most?) CL implementations 18:40:39 Adlai: that's also modifying literal data. Bad move. 18:40:42 and literal data again 18:40:44 nreverse destroys the input structure to build the output. 18:40:57 *Adlai* eats literal data for breakfast. 18:41:05 it's just an example... 18:41:16 futuranon [n=futurano@67-207-144-254.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 18:41:32 Yeah, but one doesn't want to set a bad example for new Lispers 18:41:33 clisp returns ((3 2 1) (3 2 1)) 18:41:37 which makes it doubly as bad because you're trying to teach a newcomer 18:41:58 not just doing the mistake out of lazingly while in conversations with experts 18:42:02 hum i guess i'd better stop bothering you with this easy stuff and stick to my book. goodbye and thank you all very much! 18:42:03 lazyness 18:42:25 -!- bad_alloc [n=marvin@HSI-KBW-091-089-218-056.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has left #lisp 18:42:31 *Adlai* feels the flak. bad_alloc: sorry for setting a bad example... good luck with your project. 18:42:43 francogrex [n=user@91.177.142.144] has joined #lisp 18:43:05 "If you arent in an IDE, lets hope you can find (or fire up) a listener which isnt totally hosed and into which you can type your implementations equivalent of a process-kill command." 18:44:02 hm 18:44:12 C-d works pretty well, usually ;) 18:44:29 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:22 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.115.199.68] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:48:30 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.116.28.182] has joined #lisp 18:48:38 'lisp' 18:48:39 Xach: I told you about the latest charts URL, right: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/coders-at-work-charts/charts.html 18:48:59 yep. 18:49:08 is that private-ish? 18:49:21 Good. My mom just emailed me asking when I was going to update my charts and I realized she had the old URL. 18:49:27 hah 18:49:35 Xach: Not really. 18:49:44 tcr: laziness. :-) 18:49:48 Any publicity is good publicity. ;-) 18:50:05 Hmmm. Someone should tell Nick Levine that DOTIMES doesn't necessarily bind the loop variable. 18:50:33 what do you mean? 18:51:14 Adlai: DOTIMES could be either implemented using a loop and assigning to one binding, or it could be implemented as a tail-recursive function binding a new variable on each iteration 18:51:25 "When people list features beyond the ANSI standard which theyd like to see standardized and more widely implemented, persistence is often high on their list." Really? 18:51:27 what tcr said. 18:52:21 phf [n=user@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 18:53:06 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 18:53:23 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BB1F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:27 don't both of those still bind the variable? (unless the number of times is =<0 ...) 18:53:58 Adlai: The second way creates a new binding on each iteration 18:54:03 gigamonkey: how long it took you to finish that book? 18:54:12 Adlai: in other words (let ((closures ())) (dotimes (i 10) (push (lambda () (incf i)) closures)) closures) may return a list of closers that frob the same binding or they may all have their own. 18:54:13 Adlai: while the first way just peruses one binding. This makes a differences for closures 18:54:28 leo2007: two years, full time, before I had a kid. 18:54:55 PCL, or CaW? 18:55:00 PCL. 18:55:10 what about CaW? 18:55:30 CaW was two years, full time in the sense of no other work, but taking care of my kid 2.5 days a week plus doing my bit on weekends. 18:55:33 gigamonkey: thank you for PCL. 18:55:39 leo2007: Welcome! 18:55:40 tcr & gigamonkey: ok, so the difference is between having a single binding and multiple bindings, I see. 18:57:15 gigamonkey: what's the plan for the next book? 18:57:30 *Adlai* votes PCL 2nd Ed. 18:57:47 LotB lacks useful examples, IMHO 18:58:00 *Xach* votes "Diving Head First Into CL-PPCRE For Dummies Explained in 24 Hours" 18:58:05 LOtB 18:58:06 Adlai: Creating new bindings, and thus avoiding assignment, has advantages because compilers can reason about the former much much easier 18:58:26 lispm: LOotB 18:59:09 [ ] 18:59:12 Xach: hmmm. I wonder if you could get away with titling a book that on the grounds of parody. 18:59:25 LOtB needs a better acronym 18:59:26 lispm: so email Nick 18:59:34 lispm: hopefully mine catches on. 18:59:45 (about examples, not the acronym...) 18:59:46 Or would you just be immediately bludgeoned by a half dozen trademark infringement suits. 18:59:53 gigamonkey: did you use cl exclusively to produce PCL? 19:00:29 Adlai: Many compilers will just stamp code involving assignment, or mutation, as hairy and stop trying to do analysis on it. 19:00:31 common lisp can produce ink out of thin air! 19:00:32 leo2007: well, it was ultimately typeset in Quark or whatever. But all my tools except for version control and Emacs were homebrew CL code. 19:00:45 And the OS, etc. etc. 19:00:46 Grue` [n=grue@masq.snto-msu.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:02 -!- whartung [n=willh@207.38.40.1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:01:12 You don't write a new CL OS for each book? 19:01:33 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:01:37 I actually started with some Perl scripts but then realized both the wisdom of jwz's quote about regexps and that I ought to eat my own dogfood. 19:01:57 haha 19:02:10 Fare: I forked the existing code for csp. I'm trying to clean it up a bit, provide a better interface, and make it play nice with the conditions system 19:02:29 if all works well, it should be a pretty nice (and simple!) portable concurrency lib :) 19:02:31 LOtB? 19:02:41 mbishop: Lisp Out of the Box 19:02:52 mbishop: ken levine's O'Reilly book. 19:02:56 Ah yes 19:03:02 I should add that to the acronym list :P 19:03:04 Nick 19:03:10 nick* 19:03:14 tcr: hmm I guess that would make the compiler's job easier then. 19:03:16 Oh, never mind, LOtB is right; it's "Lisp Outside the Box" 19:03:31 speaking of, gigamonkey, don't you have a new book coming out about Lisp? 19:03:36 interviews with programmers? 19:03:42 mbishop: it's not about lisp. 19:03:45 how about "Lisp, one foot in the grave"? 19:03:48 LtFF: Lisp the final frontier 19:03:48 mbishop: not about Lisp. But yes interviews with programmers. 19:03:49 mbishop: it's not "about Lisp"... 19:03:56 hefner: haha 19:03:57 Fair enough 19:03:57 http://www.codersatwork.com/ 19:04:00 I still wan to read it 19:04:06 want* 19:04:15 I just abuse my position in the "lisp community" to talk about it here. 19:04:35 what's the point of power if you can't abuse it? :P 19:04:40 sykopomp: what's csp? 19:04:49 Fare: communicating sequential processes. 19:05:06 thread synchronisation by dumping data into channels that automatically handle locking. 19:05:10 is it using threads? forks? green threads? 19:05:16 it uses bt 19:05:21 bt? 19:05:25 bordeaux-threads 19:05:37 sykopomp: what's csp? 19:05:42 *Fare* gets his employer to buy Coders At Work 19:05:51 gigamonkey: just bought your book. But amazon.at says it takes up to 4 weeks for delivery :-(. 19:05:52 *gigamonkey* approves 19:05:53 *Master-Luis* slaps his forehead 19:05:55 minion: bordeaux-threads? 19:05:56 bordeaux-threads: Portable shared-state concurrency for Common Lisp Bordeaux-Threads is a library to write multi-threaded applications in a portable way. http://www.cliki.net/bordeaux-threads 19:05:59 Master-Luis: a library for providing CSP-style multiprocessing in CL 19:06:10 ruediger: Yeah, I'm not sure what's up with that. 19:06:12 Master-Luis: communicating sequential processes. Spawn a bunch of threads, make them dump info into channel objects, let the channels handle synchronization. 19:06:15 sounds interesting. 19:06:38 I know Amazon has shipped a bunch out and may be waiting on more from Apress. 19:06:39 + some non-deterministic alternating between possible actions (reading/writing/etc), always doing whatever happens to be available at the time. 19:06:45 Master-Luis: what's your master on? 19:06:48 http://github.com/sykopomp/chanl <--- the repo 19:06:53 sykopomp: btw, there was a very interesting talk at ECLM about a completely different way of approaching asynchronous stuff 19:07:00 Don't know why it would take so long though. I'm hoping Amazon is just being pessimistic. 19:07:09 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:07:15 gigamonkey: have a setup like PCL? (as in, it will eventually be available online?) 19:07:24 Adlai: which approach did they take? It seems like the most common ones these days are futures, agents, and STM 19:07:39 mbishop: sadly, no. I think for this book it would really cut into sales rather than the reverse. 19:07:52 that's probably true 19:08:06 Also, I updated the acronym list for LOtB: http://mbishop.esoteriq.org/stuff/books.txt 19:08:11 *mbishop* really needs to make that into a wiki or something 19:08:22 sykopomp: visual diagrams similar to those used in electrical engineering 19:08:25 weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:08:45 Adlai: you mean dataflow programming? 19:08:51 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:09:13 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 19:09:14 this was Paul Tarvydas's talk... it was about a program which compiles a visual diagram of program flow into CL code 19:09:25 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:09:30 not really dataflow programming. The programs look like EE circuit diagrams. 19:09:52 hm 19:09:54 interesting. 19:11:31 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.163.214.130] has joined #lisp 19:12:45 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@93.82.2.204] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:12:59 Hmmmm. Anyone who wants a Kindle version of C@W should probably click the "I want this on my Kindle" link on Amazon. 19:13:19 Apparently it's up to Amazon to convert the files that Apress sends them and they don't always do it that quickly. 19:13:21 is the Kindle version compatible with the SONY Reader one? 19:13:48 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:13:53 gigamonkey: it's few clicks (or one CLI command) to change a wordfile to kindle :P 19:13:53 tic: Are most Kindle books? I assume it's like any other Kindle book you can buy from Amazon. 19:13:57 Master-Luis, are you now going to write koans? 19:14:17 p_l: yeah, but probably more than a few clicks to get it into the Whispernet system. 19:14:19 Defective by design formats make me grumpy 19:14:30 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 19:14:33 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:14:35 gigamonkey, good point. I'll have to look that up. Played with a Reader Touch this weekend, and I really like it. 19:14:43 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:29 dlowe: it works through hostid, with some additional code from Amazon to make recall possible 19:15:59 dlowe: for folks like you we offer a deluxe edition printed on dried out wood pulp. ;-) 19:16:10 gigamonkey: which I've already pre-ordered 19:16:24 dlowe: good. ;-) 19:16:50 gigamonkey: I didn't say I had a good solution. I was just remarking that I think the current one stinks. 19:17:02 I don't have a good solution for overpopulation either 19:17:21 Swift does 19:17:33 Mobireader DRM is one of the less broken ones I had to deal with, but Amazon had to make their own changes (it wasn't restrictive enough for them, it seems) 19:17:34 mbishop: only for Irish people 19:17:35 I mean, look at all those places serving baby back ribs! 19:18:04 So there is: ALU, CLiki,common-lisp.net,www.cl-user.net. Any others? Why so much fragmentation? 19:18:23 francogrex: why is there so much fragmentation for C++ websites? they're all over the place! 19:19:44 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 19:19:54 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 19:21:05 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-187.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:22:51 hi 19:23:03 lo 19:23:07 hi 19:23:20 dlowe: yes but lispers are supposed to be wiser than C++ peopleµ 19:23:41 francogrex: i see no intelligence in programming. 19:23:41 bah, http://dwim.hu/ 19:23:48 still slow, but that is not inherent 19:24:01 francogrex: it's not wise to put all your eggs in one basket 19:24:05 have some caching issues on the client, slow network, etc. 19:24:55 levy_: whatz dwim? 19:25:24 v0|d, an acronym: do what I mean 19:25:30 but I guess you were asking for something else 19:26:01 -!- Hazelesque [n=hazel@pc222.mcs.le.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:26:19 levy_: nope iwasnt aware of the abbreviation. i see a new abbr. everywhere nowadays, i'm a bit confued. 19:26:33 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:26:39 hello Fare 19:27:11 -!- hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit ["leaving"] 19:27:20 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-72-136.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:28:27 <_3b> levy_: doesn't degrade well if you don't accept cookies :p 19:29:06 v0|d: dwim is a pretty common abbreviation in programmer-land 19:29:22 _3b, thanks that was reported 19:29:51 s/abbreviation/acronym/ 19:29:52 <_3b> also, completely taking over right click menu is a bit annoying 19:30:13 dlowe: Concordia res parvae crescunt 19:30:17 <_3b> ah, guess it just does it some places, that is slightly less annoying 19:30:24 sykopomp: i miss day light nowadays, sorry,i'll try to catch up. 19:30:50 _3b, that's not a necessity, it's there only if you use a context-menu component 19:31:13 or better in French: L'union fait la force 19:31:17 v0|d: the term is ancient. WP has a source that uses it from way back in 1969. 19:31:30 That's why we have ansi "common" lisp 19:32:15 in the debug menu you can inspect the server's state 19:32:19 sykopomp: ancient and 1969? hm 19:32:48 francogrex: A pithy saying proves nothing. 19:32:52 v0|d: in computer science terms, that's downright paleolithic. 19:33:04 or maybe more bronze age. 19:33:10 heh 19:33:14 paleolithic being the time of FORTRAN and LISP ;) 19:33:16 francogrex: just because you see junk on comp.lang.lisp is not a good excuse to post bug reports in the wrong forum. 19:33:20 i'm happy that i did not see those ages. 19:33:49 v0|d: some would say everything significant in comp sci was already done by the end of 'those ages' 19:34:01 dlowe: yours was equally pithy, about the eggs, very common 19:34:24 sykopomp: i know, i'm trying to get a math degree if they do not kick me again. dismissed 3 times. 19:34:30 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:34:46 its very common in math, ancient discoveries 19:34:47 levy_: if I go to Project->bordeaux-threads and click on src/mcl.lisp I get an error: Invalid initialization arguments: 19:34:48 :COMMENT, :SUB-CHARACTER, :ARGUMENT, :MACRO-CHARACTER 19:34:48 in call for class # 19:35:26 fe[nl]ix, that means the reflection does not cover all reader customization cases 19:35:59 fe[nl]ix, eh, no that is a simple bug 19:36:04 Xach: ok next time, I'll post a couple about some old junk fake rolex I'd want to get rid of. 19:37:07 bah, the network is slow like hell on that server, 20 KB/s 19:37:17 francogrex: Why? 19:37:19 disk is also slow due to virtualization 19:37:39 levy_: i wish i could scroll down the project list 19:38:04 Xach: what do you mean why? To make some money of course. 19:38:20 Xach, mouse wheel 19:38:22 francogrex: So you would like to post both off-topic messages and spam? 19:38:23 at least for me 19:38:35 Xach, but yes you are right 19:38:48 I don't know if dojo supports that 19:39:34 BTW, all of those projects are loaded in the live server 19:39:46 now that i have scrolled down, i am sad that none of my projects are in the list :) 19:40:04 Xach: don't worry, we love your projects :( 19:40:09 Xach: why are you surpised? 19:40:11 <3! 19:40:21 francogrex: because vecto is awesome? 19:40:44 it is indeed 19:40:46 Xach, which one would you like? 19:41:03 levy_: I don't really know. 19:41:09 levy_: zs3, maybe. 19:41:25 actually this project is about reflexive documentation, so it might make sense to add anything 19:41:31 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:41:36 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:41:45 some of those projects are already added for that reason 19:42:12 which site of projects are you talking about? 19:42:38 francogrex, http://dwim.hu/ 19:42:40 francogrex: I am not surprised. I don't think you should justify bad behavior by pointing out that others are far worse than you. 19:42:59 Or threatening to practice that worse behavior yourself. 19:43:00 did anyone try XCVB 0.372 ? 19:43:03 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:43:23 Fare, not yet, but definitely on my infinite list of TODOs 19:44:26 dysinger [n=dysinger@c-24-18-234-48.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:54 dwim like cl-diwm? 19:45:19 francogrex, yes, that's the old name 19:45:34 ok and cl-walker is yours as well 19:45:42 our projects will be renamed to hu.dwim.* 19:46:05 well they are already renamed, just not visible yet 19:46:10 levy_, why hu.dwim? 19:46:20 use xcvb and call them dwim.hu/foo 19:46:31 long live / as a path separator! 19:46:53 I mean, that's what URLs use, don't they? 19:47:03 down with java dot names. 19:47:27 java can't deal with that / but CL can. 19:47:38 deadowl [n=deadowl_@132.198.36.233] has joined #lisp 19:48:16 Fare: is there a compelling reason why this is a big issue? 19:48:25 or is this just an arbitrary matter of taste? :) 19:48:42 Anyone know a best practice for swapping two sections of two linked lists (or two parts of the same) given a reference to two start and end nodes? 19:48:52 and the linked lists 19:48:56 levy_: whereis attila? 19:49:04 Fare, interesting idea which we did have 19:49:05 levy_: long time no see. 19:49:13 attila was here today 19:49:36 levy_: i though you did lots of money and quit to never ending vacation! 19:49:37 damn it, I have to miss a talk by Erik Demaine 19:49:44 Fare, I guess we chose this because it is well known (in mainstream languages) 19:49:49 damn me for not using Google Calendar properly! 19:49:54 hoy 19:50:09 nikodemus, mañana 19:50:21 any eclm attendees around? 19:50:22 Fare: also, wrt xcvb... my impression right now is that it doesn't scale terribly well to smaller projects. Having to build up an image every time I want to work on a project a few files big (and having to go through the xcvb setup) seems a bit annoying for anything but extremely large projects, and big projects that involve other languages. 19:50:31 nikodemus, where are you physically located these days? 19:50:37 helsinki 19:50:43 (as ever) 19:50:51 I'm honestly unclear as to what exactly it solves for Average CL Project 19:50:53 sykopomp, I suppose I could relax the initial image thing. 19:51:07 I'll add that on my TODO list. 19:51:14 nikodemus: hah you lazy! 19:51:38 Fare: it would be really appealing to be able to start up any arbitrary lisp image (I might me working on something else), and be able to compile+load code from within that image. It's a nice workflow, and I appreciate that about asdf. 19:52:33 any idea what Kuroda Hisao said about "areas for improvement for CL and SBCL in particular" at eclm? 19:52:58 are there going to be recordings of eclm talks? 19:53:12 no idea 19:53:16 sykopomp, it's meant to solve the ASDF configuration madness. 19:53:20 v0|d, well, I can say that our CL startup is successful, but unfortunately we have to work for that... 19:53:32 and the ASDF non-determinism horror. 19:53:50 Fare: what non-determinism is it, btw? 19:54:00 sykopomp, the "in-image compile" is already in my TODO 19:54:13 sykopomp, among different machines 19:54:17 non-determinism in incremental compilation 19:54:32 I mean, I'm sure there's all sorts of horror when you have a bunch of :depends-on in large systems, but xcvb would be really appealing if it also helped make life easier at the small-system level. 19:55:15 nikodemus: constant folding, constant propogation, common sub-expression elimination, loop optimization, sbcl non-threadsafe libraries, non-optimizable displaced arrays (for BLAS/LAPACK), SSE instruction support 19:56:47 *francogrex* trying RCL project 19:56:50 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 19:59:34 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:59:52 weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:01:44 sykopomp, would a "build serially like ASDF" help you? 20:02:03 ok, so that, in-image compilation on compiling without dumping an initial image? 20:02:08 Fare: actually, yeah. All my systems are serial. I've found that to be more than enough for now. 20:02:28 serial is fine for small systems. It just doesn't scale for large systems. 20:02:34 I'd like to be able to do (xcvb:load :my-system) 20:02:42 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@76.254.48.240] has joined #lisp 20:03:15 sykopomp, it's in my TODO list, but not very high I admit. 20:03:50 it might be worth doing if you expect lots of smaller libs to use xcvb 20:03:59 and that would probably be (xcvb-master:load "my-system") 20:03:59 nikodemus: he also said that a thread support for opensolaris would be a plus. 20:04:05 anyone know where I should go to find info on linked list algorithms? 20:04:07 although if you just expect most people to build stuff with asdf, and use xcvb only for huge projects, then that's fine. 20:04:48 why -master? 20:05:25 me? I'm trying to find a more elegant way to swap two sections of two linked lists. 20:05:26 Hi all, I've been looking for the first time at languages like CLOS that support mixins. All they seem to do is add functions to a class that have not been defined up the inheritance chain. Isn't this the same as using static methods? Why were mixins developed? 20:05:48 deech`: back up, you got it wrong. 20:06:18 deech`: uhhh. 20:06:23 *wgl* Any minute now 20:06:45 deech`: first CLOS doesn't so much support mixins (as their own thing) as it supports multiple inheritance 20:07:15 second, you don't add functions to a class, you define methods on a generic function that have at least one argument that dispatches on a certain class. 20:07:17 is multiple inheritance worth it? 20:07:21 deech`: In CLOS, first there are functions (methods) (generic in fact) then there are classes. 20:07:36 deadowl: I like it. Some people don't. 20:07:37 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:07:44 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:56 deadowl: worth what? 20:07:57 deadowl, you can define your own diamond resolver. 20:07:59 deech`: to avoid IoC, remember your worst nightmare? 20:08:04 sykopomp: What is their argument for not liking it? 20:08:28 v0|d: I am not familiar with the term IoC. 20:08:31 tcr: adds complexity, creates problems on how to resolve diamonds, cognitive load, etc. 20:08:34 deadowl: Are the sections of equal length? 20:08:34 did enough faked/chained multiple dispatch in c++ to say, yes, multiple dispatch is absolutely worth it 20:08:53 dcrawford: he said inheritance, not dispatch. 20:08:59 deech`, have you read http://eval.apply.googlepages.com/guide.html and http://gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html ? 20:09:02 doh 20:09:11 dcrawford: <3 multiple dispatch, too. 20:09:24 tic_: no, I will look at those. Thank you for the references. 20:10:10 this one's related too, http://gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-classes.html 20:10:34 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has joined #lisp 20:10:58 I see a new book on scheme on Amazon: the Scheme Programming Language: http://www.amazon.com/Scheme-Programming-Language-4th/dp/026251298X 20:11:09 Fare, xcvb does not load with asdf 20:11:16 4th edition 20:11:18 does for me 20:11:45 can't find cl-launch which seems not to have an asd definition any more 20:11:46 *Fare* types make xcvb-using-asdf and it works 20:11:57 levy: did you reinstall cl-launch? 20:12:01 deech`: one point of using mixins is to split up your overall behavior into smaller chunks, and then putting the pieces together. It lets you reuse that mixin to add particular behavior to a class, as opposed to having something evil like interfaces, which just go "lol ok, here you go. You better implement this" 20:12:15 In the latest cl-launch git there's a Makefile to re-create your cl-launch .asd 20:12:36 a makefile? 20:12:39 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:12:48 Xach, got something against makefiles? 20:12:57 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:11 you should use an .asd to create the makefile. 20:13:13 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 20:13:17 they -are- pretty ugly and annoying... 20:13:21 <_< 20:13:39 sykopomp, which is why I prefer it when they are automatically created by xcvb 20:13:45 ./cl-launch.sh: 3010: cannot create /usr/local/bin/cl-launch.tmp12248~: Permission denied 20:13:54 levy_, sudo ? 20:14:02 do you mean sudo make? 20:14:23 Fare: i don't have make installed 20:14:35 ln: target `/usr/local/share/common-lisp/systems/' is not a directory: No such file or directory 20:14:43 Xach: what do you think, was http://www.b3ta.com/board/9693867 made with the speech bubble generator? (: 20:14:45 fare: make should be local, only make install should ever go to sudo 20:14:58 antifuchs: i can tell you don't read my blog :~( 20:15:14 not as intensely as maybe I should 20:15:29 minion, chant 20:15:29 MORE SPECIFIC 20:15:39 dcrawford: there's nothing to make, only to make install 20:15:54 Xach: I think google reader hasn't picked up that entry yet (: 20:15:57 hrmpf! 20:16:06 Fare: you just said the makefile would create an .asd file. 20:16:23 it would create it in the installation directory 20:16:24 fare: just make the asd locally. make install would then depend on that generated file and do the copy 20:16:38 that's a weird idea. 20:16:44 Fare, actually I don't even have anything in /usr/local/share/common-lisp 20:16:50 why go through the trouble of making garbage 20:17:09 but you can install into current directory by editing the Makefile or overriding it, if you so desire 20:17:28 levy: where do you want to install it? I can't guess. Edit the Makefile. 20:17:59 cl-launch -B print_cl_launch_asd 20:18:01 I agree with dcrawford, that it should create it locally 20:18:03 cl-launch -B print_cl_launch_asd > foo.asd 20:18:06 but sure, I can do that 20:18:22 I don't know what it changes. 20:19:00 Fare: root users are rare. 20:19:05 Fare: know more about it. 20:19:12 v0|d, you don't have to install is /usr/local 20:19:26 but if you do then don't be surprised that the system complains. 20:19:36 Fare: i think they'r demanding make & make install functions seperately 20:19:41 any more details on that list? 20:19:48 it seems you've just bagged everthing into make install. 20:19:49 from my perspective: constant folding -- done, constant propogation -- done-kindof, common sub-expression elimination -- not done, loop optimization -- not really done, sbcl non-threadsafe libraries -- not sure what this means, non-optimizable displaced arrays (for BLAS/LAPACK) -- not sure what this means, SSE instruction support -- done one x86-64 20:19:57 v0|d, I'll accept patches. 20:20:06 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:20:07 there isn't much to bag 20:20:20 Fare: i never use make. 20:20:25 Fare: just like perl. 20:21:08 then why do you complain about my Makefiles? 20:21:12 i'd like to know what sort of constant folding is not done that he wants done, and a some idea of what the non-threadsafe libraries and non-optimizable displaced arrays mean 20:21:29 Fare: i'm complaining about your understanding. 20:21:46 its a very clear demand of a typical make user. 20:22:01 if you use make, you make make users happy. 20:22:51 v0|d, local lesson on make / rant was applied to fare :P 20:23:50 OK, so I should just delete the Makefile and have only a README. 20:23:55 or INSTALL 20:24:17 right. 20:24:36 that way I won't have complaints about having a 3 times bigger Makefile just for the sake of generating intermediate garbage. 20:26:00 nikodemus: isn't it possible for mappers to be efficiently compiled into their loop equivalents? 20:26:25 can one use slime without emacs? 20:26:42 No but you can use swank without emacs 20:26:50 francogrex: seeing as SLIME stands for Superior Lisp Interactive Mode for Emacs, no. 20:27:06 swank then 20:27:10 tcr: Climacs uses swank, right? 20:27:12 francogrex: what would using slime without emacs even mean 20:27:31 -!- plops [n=user@pD9E68A0F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:27:34 sykopomp: Nope 20:27:36 it would be the slim version 20:28:03 SlimVim. 20:28:22 sykopomp: it uses Swank-the-library, not Swank-the-protocol. 20:28:24 sounds more appealing than "Limp" 20:28:25 :P 20:28:35 sykopomp, :-) 20:28:50 what's *.rest? 20:28:52 sykopomp, you must include the tagline, "when a lisp is not enough!" 20:28:56 we need an editor called jim 20:29:00 levy_, ReStructuredText? 20:29:09 and be can finally have a SlimeJim 20:29:47 it kinda sucks to load code into the same image your editor is running :\ 20:29:57 kpax [i=tx@c-83-233-243-156.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 20:30:25 tic_, oops just hanged up my emacs 20:30:37 levy_, hm? 20:30:51 a rest file 20:31:22 okay. if it's restructuredtext then it should just be a regular markdown-style text file. 20:31:28 lisp needs a good way to isolate code 20:31:50 surely it is, but still my emacs did not like it 20:31:57 a single image really doesn't work very well for multiple programs 20:32:01 but multiple images is so redundant 20:32:05 sykopomp: certainly _possible_ 20:32:23 nikodemus: reasonably? 20:32:33 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177123032.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 20:32:35 Ralith, why do you think it does not work? 20:32:43 it's even done in some cases currently 20:32:44 levy_: what? 20:32:54 a single image for multiple programs? 20:32:55 has anyone used SB-HEAPDUMP recently? good or bad experiences? 20:33:00 mapping function -> loop is easy 20:33:04 that's what you have installed on your computer 20:33:05 levy_, weird. got a bad ReST-mode installed? 20:33:05 levy_: it works, just not very well. 20:33:14 it's optimizing loops that is trickier 20:33:15 a single linear image of bits for multiple programs 20:33:21 *Ralith* smacks levy_ 20:33:25 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@89-181-95-64.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 20:33:26 don't be a troll 20:33:29 *levy_* dodges 20:33:36 -!- deadowl [n=deadowl_@132.198.36.233] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:33:50 nikodemus: isn't the simple kind of loop most mappers would generate easy enough to optimize? 20:33:53 -!- Kenjin is now known as Guest53254 20:33:57 no, I'm serious 20:34:08 I'm a SCID fan 20:34:20 I mean, is it that hard to optimize (loop for item in *list* do (funcall 'foo item))? 20:34:26 but there is protection between apps running on your computer vs. a bunch of functions in your Lisp image. 20:34:34 (I know nothing of compilers, sorry if the questions are obnoxious...) 20:34:35 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:35:07 that is quite doable, and on a much finer level 20:35:23 v0|d: were you at ECLM too ? 20:35:26 levy_: you're incoherent. 20:35:33 levy_, by which means? 20:35:37 s/which/what/ 20:35:42 lisp's sandboxing issues are annoying :< 20:36:03 I'm not saying that lisp is doing anything close to that 20:36:05 the problem with a single lisp image is that a single issue in any one place brings the whole system down, and that there's no access controls. 20:36:22 the problem with multiple images is that you've got N copies of the same code 20:36:46 in my lisp image there would be multiple versions of the same function 20:36:49 sykopomp: yes and no. things like loop invariant lifting and unrolling are certainly not _hard_ as such -- but adding them to sbcl is a trickier proposition 20:36:57 that's nice? 20:37:04 so if you change it, the call sites are not updated unless you do want it 20:37:31 sykopomp: otoh, there isn't really much at all to optimize in a loop like that 20:37:42 (your example above) 20:38:11 levy_, you mean like busybox ? 20:38:24 Fare, I don't know that 20:38:26 as long as the loop alignment is good (which seems to be a black art on current hardware), there isn't much to you can do there 20:38:56 nikodemus, automatic loop alignment at runtime after benchmarking? 20:39:17 I'm actually surprised SBCL's compiler doesn't already at least change (map nil 'foo *list*) into that loop. 20:39:49 whartung [n=willh@207.38.40.1] has joined #lisp 20:40:20 ACL to me is just a higher order function 20:40:32 ACL? 20:40:40 fxr [n=user@213.232.33.243] has joined #lisp 20:40:44 I mean access control 20:40:48 v0|d: y00 20:40:52 fxr: y00 20:40:58 v0|d: sup? 20:41:01 fxr: fine. 20:41:26 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@89-180-191-26.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 20:41:26 v0|d: is there a twitter page for core-server? 20:41:27 fxr: seen eclm pictures? 20:41:35 fxr: no 20:41:39 levy_: good luck implementing that 20:41:42 there's no way to :P 20:41:49 v0|d: yeah, looks boring 20:41:55 -!- Kenjin is now known as Guest88764 20:41:56 fxr: :) 20:42:02 Fare, I took a look at busybox, but I certainly don't mean that 20:42:10 fxr: know no one using twitter other than obama. 20:42:18 v0|d: :D 20:43:08 fxr: www.msi.co.jp 20:43:38 sykopomp: it does, it it knows *LIST* is a list 20:43:50 v0|d: I'm watching edinburgh 2009 meeting, spj makes me laugh with his jokes :) 20:43:57 what bothers me more, is source code in text 20:44:28 nikodemus pasted "map optimizing" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87123 20:44:32 nikodemus: oh. I probably wasn't giving it enough info, then. 20:45:00 that's fantastic! :) 20:45:01 v0|d: what's interesting about msi.co.jp? 20:45:03 fxr: hehe 20:45:14 fxr: spj is real fun 20:45:25 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 20:46:00 fxr: nothing 20:46:31 fxr: i should break down the http-server into parts. 20:46:36 levy_, what do you mean? and how does source code in text bother you? you want INTERLISP? 20:46:48 (or Intentional Programming, or Smalltalk?) 20:46:52 v0|d: no you shouldn't 20:47:07 v0|d, liar, you know me. 20:47:08 Fare, does smalltalk really store the source in a structure? 20:47:21 or is it that they store it in the image, but still as text? 20:47:22 levy_, might depend on st implementations 20:47:44 LINJ? anyone used it? the links for the http://www.cl-user.net/asp/libs/linj seem dead 20:48:03 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:08 IP is much closer (well, I've been working there ;-) 20:48:24 -!- Kenjin_ [n=Kenjin@89.181.68.0] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:48:57 Fare: what makes you think i know you? 20:49:02 Fare, we have quite a few abstractions to deal with source code, compilation, etc. 20:49:21 you probably know me better than you know Obama 20:49:46 probably 20:50:13 fxr: why? 20:51:01 for example, I hate to find a good place for a function 20:51:18 rdd` [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:51:34 v0|d: oh I should ask first. What was your reason? 20:51:48 fxr: not the server i have to. 20:51:52 fxr: it was the application 20:52:04 fxr: people complained about that they do not use continuation style web 20:52:21 v0|d: well so people sould break it into parts. 20:52:38 v0|d: you're the only one developer in lisp community? 20:52:43 v0|d: I guess no 20:53:00 probably because there's usually no such thing (due to load order, different conceptual groups) 20:53:08 -!- Guest53254 [n=Kenjin@89-181-95-64.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:53:13 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:53:34 in a SCID, you just define a function to be and it's done 20:53:52 whether it pops up in various views is a different issue 20:53:59 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-153-123.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:55:30 v0|d: so how can I query wi 20:55:36 with the latest patches 20:55:44 -!- paw` [n=paw`@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has left #lisp 20:55:55 fxr: i only added equal queries for slots 20:56:16 fxr: but the class successors are there by inspection a goal-p query is very easy to implement. 20:56:33 v0|d: which is useless 20:56:42 anyway, I'm leaving now, tomorrow I'll be fishing (and not on the internet ;-) 20:56:44 or too complex 20:57:02 -!- levy_ [n=levy@apn-94-44-10-244.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 20:57:08 fxr: complex? 20:57:17 fxr: it may be slow 20:57:25 v0|d: are there any new feedbacks? 20:57:35 no, lispers are lazy nowadays. 20:57:44 everybody is having his vacation. 20:58:09 cool 20:58:10 probably meeting amsterdam. 20:58:44 francogrex: company page is dead, but you can look it up in webarchive 21:01:27 v0|d: well I said complex because a complex query yields more than one traverse of the entire model 21:01:52 fxr: yes non deterministic behaviour is obvious. 21:02:19 chitech [n=khuongdp@0x5da0f511.svgnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:02:41 v0|d: but there are solutions for this problem 21:02:55 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:03:02 fxr: that i dont know. 21:04:00 exactly 21:04:12 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-153-123.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 21:04:14 nice. 21:04:35 -!- chitech [n=khuongdp@0x5da0f511.svgnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 21:05:01 ruepel0r [n=rue@77-22-58-33-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:09:12 damn it 21:10:58 p_l: so it was a commercial company thing? 21:11:07 francogrex: yes 21:11:26 francogrex: they might still have it available if you get some contact 21:12:23 p_l: I think then it's not useful to search google, I'll not find it 21:13:00 yeah. look over their website with Wayback Machine, it has tutorial of Linj 21:15:49 sepult [n=levgue@87.78.103.239] has joined #lisp 21:18:18 -!- phf [n=user@host.icnfull.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:24:05 kpreid [n=kpreid@209.217.212.34] has joined #lisp 21:31:21 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:58 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:32:21 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:35:31 p_l: thanks for the hint and the wayback machine is very cool 21:38:20 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 21:39:13 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:33 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:40:36 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:44:27 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.177.142.144] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:44:37 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:45:26 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-078.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:50:56 I thought x86 and x86-64 builds on sbcl.org were threaded 21:51:16 doubtful... 21:51:31 the x86-64 binary was, at one point. 21:52:23 or maybe i'm crazy 21:53:03 former 21:54:22 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209.217.212.34] has quit [] 21:55:43 xach: Seems like none are built threaded. I always build mine from source. 21:58:09 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-72-136.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:59:39 Yaaaaaaayyyyyy! My books are here. 21:59:42 xach: What are you running that you don't have make installed. 22:00:04 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:00:05 gigamonkey: nice! 22:00:07 gigamonkey: Any minute now for me, UPS says. 22:00:10 wgl: It was a rhetorical lie. 22:01:27 wgl: windows? 22:02:58 congrats gigamonkey! 22:04:47 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-187.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:04:59 *Xach* tries building a binary distribution on his own 22:05:22 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:08:22 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:08:43 Xach: haiku! 22:09:06 slyrus_: thanks! 22:09:24 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:09:27 milfadoodle [n=badgerfa@78-69-144-82-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 22:10:18 -!- emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-11-230.twcny.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 22:10:50 is there a CL implementation for haiku? Emacs doesn't seem to work (but it should be trivial to get the terminal version running in it) 22:12:34 Coliveira__ [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has joined #lisp 22:12:35 Demosthenes [n=demo@ipn36372-f96131.cidr.lightship.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:58 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 22:14:37 madnificent: what is haiku in your context? 22:15:12 haiku = descendent of beos 22:15:28 trebor_home [n=email@dslb-084-058-246-104.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:43 http://www.haiku-os.org/ 22:16:09 Dawgmatix_: is there a Java implementation for Haiku? 22:16:50 i dont know Luis. 22:17:03 ive only barely kept up with haiku news 22:17:29 they released alpha 1 after 8 years of development this past week 22:18:16 ecl should be straightforward to port if gmp is available 22:19:42 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-21.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 22:19:50 Xach: the os 22:19:56 wchogg [n=wchogg@71-34-77-216.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:38 Master-Luis: I think that clisp might be a candidate, and perhaps postgres, as it is posix compliant (at least, at first glance) 22:21:06 but trying it out (even on a simple usb-stick) made me want more of it 22:21:10 ecl will gladly go anywhere a c compiler does 22:21:10 -!- Coliveira [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:21:15 it's simply more reactive 22:21:27 sadly, ecl seems to *not work* for anything I want to use it for 22:21:35 but it certainly is an option in the future 22:22:05 with the right hooks, ecl might even be good for haiki development (If I'd ever come to that) 22:24:40 -!- rotty_ is now known as rotty 22:24:56 xan [n=xan@83.232.82.138] has joined #lisp 22:27:01 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@81.249.195.126] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 22:27:43 madnificent: I don't get it. Why did you bring up Haiku? 22:28:02 Xach: making binary distributions linked me to it 22:28:52 ok. i was talking about sbcl's binary-distribution.sh script. 22:29:10 oh right 22:29:21 *madnificent* scrolls back 22:29:23 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:29:43 -!- sepult [n=levgue@87.78.103.239] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:29:47 coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has joined #lisp 22:29:47 -!- tagac [n=user@141.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["/* */"] 22:30:07 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 22:30:26 sbcl.org, right 22:31:26 -!- dabd [n=dabd@85.139.99.12] has quit [Client Quit] 22:31:52 coderdad_ [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has joined #lisp 22:32:07 Xach: if you search the sbcl-devel list archives, you'll find my build-sbcl-release script which should remove most of the insanity of building sbcl binaries 22:32:09 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:32:57 -!- Coliveira__ [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:33:33 -!- rdd` [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:34:17 (you have to be in exactly the right directory, giving exactly the right names, and then use the right compressor, upload to the right place, ... 22:34:32 it's all very manual and highly involved /-: 22:35:25 Xach: here is it: http://boinkor.net/lisp/build-sbcl-release 22:35:32 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:37:09 -!- pepone [n=pepone@91.117.11.105] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:38:08 StrmSrfr [n=storm@adsl-233-15-130.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:10 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:45 oh good, I am on the right network 22:39:56 hello people who probably don't remember me! 22:40:18 I remember you 22:40:21 rvirding [n=chatzill@h69n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:40:29 as a total jerk right :) 22:40:56 is it "pretend to be a time traveler" day and you spent half of your life on the wrong network? 22:41:11 I think that was like a week ago 22:41:25 oh good, then there is still time 22:41:25 StrmSrfr: ! 22:41:38 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:41:42 but maybe my co-ordinates were incorrect... 22:41:52 kidd [n=kidd@80.Red-79-152-42.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:02 StrmSrfr: are you cartesian? 22:42:40 I'm not sure. I think I might be polar. 22:43:02 also v0|d: ! 22:43:51 ? 22:44:22 just responding in kind 22:44:37 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-11-56.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:44:52 StrmSrfr: what do you think about eclm 2009? 22:45:04 I wonder how long I have to lurk in here before it becomes socially acceptible to admit I have a problem... 22:45:30 woah 22:45:38 this is the first I'm hearing of it 22:45:43 I wish I could go :( 22:45:57 to fishing? 22:46:00 no, we have a problem 22:46:10 I tried to make it to ELS but something came up and the money went away 22:46:16 I can't even remember what it was now 22:46:19 the problem is not yours 22:46:28 fxr: thakns 22:46:45 s/thakns/thanks 22:47:36 unless you got a patent for it ;) 22:47:48 fxr++; 22:48:28 v0|d: well the credit is not mine I guess. It goes to europe? 22:49:09 fxr: i introduced #lisp kunefe today. 22:49:23 fxr: my contribution to #lisp community. 22:50:07 v0|d: how about gullac? 22:50:15 fxr: i left it to you. 22:50:19 which is more popular in ramadan. 22:50:51 -!- coderdad_ [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:51:06 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["bye bye"] 22:51:16 umit made a borek last night around midnight. 22:51:25 couldnt believe it. 22:51:47 pepone [n=pepone@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 22:52:08 well here it is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BClla%C3%A7 22:52:35 fxr: a delicious2irc bot would be perfect. 22:53:25 v0|d: you look like a starving lisp developer 22:54:25 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:39 StrmSrfr pasted "I hate Oracle" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87138 22:54:48 hopefully someone has seen this before? 22:55:21 S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has joined #lisp 22:55:42 can you get a backtrace or is everything entirely screwed? 22:55:53 StrmSrfr: what type of oracle is that? 22:56:03 :) 22:56:15 StrmSrfr: oh patents again... 22:56:26 also, 200605 sounds like it might refer to different/older shared libraries than those on debian lenny 22:56:41 well I downloaded those from the oracle website 22:56:48 StrmSrfr: why dont you refer to oracle? 22:56:53 I take it you have tried to run their client against it (: 22:57:07 server appears to be 10.2.0 22:57:10 (if that even works... if not, there may be c example programs you can use) 22:57:52 antifuchs, I actually haven't; come to think of it 22:57:55 pepone pasted "macro problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87139 22:57:55 v0|d: is that because Oracle knows less about their products than customers? :) 22:58:33 also, I see instantclient library packages versioned 10.2.0.4 22:58:38 fxr: look ma i can sing and sign on! 22:58:50 I was just trying to get these libs clsql-oracle asked for; it worked so well with postgresql-socket ;) 22:58:59 no kidding (: 22:59:41 well, best try if it works with C at all, if not, you could try the newer instantclient packages; if it does, you need to bug somebody with clsql internals experience (: 23:00:18 heh :) 23:00:27 I was thinking this might be the place to find such an individual 23:00:40 Hi can some body sayme why this macro fails to compile , http://paste.lisp.org/display/87139 23:00:54 I got a stack trace in SLIME but it wasn't useful 23:01:04 led me to a lisp paste with somebody having GTK problems 23:01:08 kmr used to hang out here a while ago, but I haven't seen him in a while 23:01:25 and I'm not sure there are many people with direct clsql experience 23:01:47 especially with oracle. maybe on a clsql mailing list 23:01:57 I was actually worried about him for a while, but about two weeks ago he posted about a zillion "your patch will be included in the next release" messages to the cl-sql list 23:02:03 pepone annotated #87139 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87139#1 23:02:26 right (: 23:02:48 anyway, that's what I'd do, good luck & good night 23:03:01 thanks :) 23:03:10 you'll probably see me on the list soon 23:03:13 pepone: the compiler is helpfully pointing out where you failed to satisfy types 23:03:17 coderdad [n=coderdad@72.200.214.240] has joined #lisp 23:03:30 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 23:03:46 v0|d annotated #87139 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87139#2 23:04:56 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@72.200.214.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:05:25 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:36 thunk_ [n=user@96-28-114-9.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 23:05:42 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:06:01 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:06:20 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:06:26 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:48 -!- Guest88764 [n=Kenjin@89-180-191-26.net.novis.pt] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 23:07:05 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:07:21 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:07:38 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:19 v0|d: but i want to convetr name to symbol that is what i need to call slot-value 23:08:34 clhs intern 23:08:34 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm 23:08:49 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@80.202.254.154] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:08:50 pepone: but thats not a good idea. 23:09:09 v0|d: why not? i newbe to lisp 23:09:31 pepone: i never want every xml polluting my code segment. 23:09:38 KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:20 v0|d: what i realy want is to set slot-values in a object for each attribute i read from xml 23:11:00 in which package would that slot be defined? 23:11:12 did use map xml namespaces to lisp namespace correctly? 23:11:24 coffee. 23:14:14 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net."] 23:14:18 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:01 jteich` [n=jensteic@p548EFDFA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:58 pepone: have you looked as s-xml 23:18:17 nop 23:18:41 check it out; it's what I used when I wanted to use xml; others here might have better suggestions 23:18:58 cxml 23:19:07 see? :) 23:19:22 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:21:57 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:23:17 xach:Windows. Hmmm. I use cygnus when forced to do ms. 23:24:05 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Verlassend"] 23:24:34 seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:27 -!- xan [n=xan@83.232.82.138] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:28:10 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@77-22-58-33-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:28:10 I using cxml and the sax api is fine, i only learning lisp btw 23:31:13 -!- jteich [n=jensteic@p548EFD70.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:31:50 But my problem is how to call a slot in a generic way , this is what i was trying to to with set-attribute macro 23:32:57 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@131.111.223.202] has quit ["good night"] 23:34:31 how can i convert SAX:ATTRIBUTE-QNAME to a String? 23:35:25 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:35:48 pepone: using the obscurely named function STRING 23:36:04 pepone: (string 'foo) => "FOO" 23:36:17 see if you can't accomplish what you need using a regular function instead of a macro 23:37:43 gigamonkey: My copy has arrived. Know what I will be doing this evening. 23:38:46 pepone: a String? 23:38:50 you mean a string? 23:38:52 this isn't java 23:39:12 guys, be nice 23:40:03 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 23:40:06 Ralith: afaik String and STRING is the same in lisp but yes a string is fine 23:40:30 wgl: Excellent. 23:40:53 Yay, C@W has received it's first review on Amazon! Boo, one star. 23:41:39 *Xach* does the "sold some wacky lisp-powered web software" jig 23:41:57 ooh Xach what!? 23:42:17 pepone: exactly, so don't use the fucked up capitalization :P 23:42:37 StrmSrfr: roflbot 23:42:44 pepone: did you try what v0|d suggested? 23:42:59 gigamonkey: Interesting how a non-trivial fraction of these have deep involvment with Lisp. Steele, of course, seems to have had a deep involvement in everything, including stuff that does not yet exist. 23:43:06 Xach: excellent! Who paid for that? And does this mean I have to reimplement it to keep using it? ;) 23:43:07 yes but slot-value wants a symbol name not a string 23:43:17 retrying.. 23:43:17 so i need to use read-from-string , i think 23:43:18 gigamonkey: C@W? 23:43:20 clhs intern 23:43:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm 23:43:35 Ralith: http://www.codersatwork.com/ 23:43:41 cool 23:43:45 well, keeping in mind that I've never used this sax package 23:43:53 what does sax:attribute-qname return 23:43:54 Generally well reviewed elsewhere so I'm not too worried. 23:44:50 gigamonkey: how about a site for reviewers commenting below html pages? 23:45:13 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@e179164092.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 23:45:27 gigamonkey: you will drop the lisp programmer productivity enormously for this month! 23:45:31 gigamonkey:: OK, I have to ask.... did Knuth comment on your work specifically? 23:46:25 -!- konr_ [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:48:10 StrmSrfr: heck no. people pay to have their own copy on their site, and they customize it by tweaking html-template files. 23:48:22 -!- gonzojive [n=red@DN800cf70f.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 23:48:49 Xach: I think it would be completely appropriate at this stage for me to say "lawl" 23:49:17 StrmSrfr: well when I sent him a draft chapter I had typeset in TeX he said it was "well TeXed" 23:49:20 I fully support you though 23:50:06 gigamonkey: that's pretty high praise 23:50:32 StrmSrfr: Accessor SAX:ATTRIBUTE-QNAME (attribute) , this is the declaration, when try to convert to a string , i get this (SAX:ATTRIBUTE-QNAME ATT) cannot be coerced to a string 23:50:54 but this is inside a marcro 23:51:17 `(setf (slot-value ,object ',(read-from-string (string name))) ,value)) 23:51:22 pepone: I may not be smart enough to help you, but what is the SAX library you are using? 23:51:30 cxml 23:51:40 StrmSrfr: He actually said something nice about the interview itself but I think it's an a paper letter somewhere, not an easily searchable email. 23:52:04 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.116.28.182] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:52:11 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.59.96] has joined #lisp 23:52:19 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 23:52:24 gigamonkey: from what I've heard of Knuth that seems likely 23:52:42 I think is something wrong with my macro syntax, and how this is expanded 23:53:03 pepone: you know about macroexpand-1? 23:54:14 konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has joined #lisp 23:55:25 *wgl* learns new phrase: blowing sunshine 23:56:52 isabellf [n=isabellf@bas2-montreal31-1242480105.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp