00:02:24 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:02:42 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 00:03:04 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 00:04:39 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:08 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-62-235.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 00:05:31 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-62-235.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:05:55 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-62-235.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:05:58 hm, rlwrap is not very nice at all wrt. pasting large amounts of text 00:06:16 when i try load my package i get error package "ROUTES.H" not found, i try load the system that whit (in-package xirafa-app) 00:06:16 (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op 'hunchentoot-routes) 00:06:16 (defparameter *port* 8080), and when i compile the file without loading it i get a ; compiling (ASDF:OPERATE (QUOTE ASDF:LOAD-OP) ...); No value , if i coment the (asdf:operate .....) i get ; compiling (DEFPARAMETER *PORT* ...); No value, someboy can put some light in me ? thanks 00:06:26 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:06:53 perlhakr [n=perlhakr@c-71-204-5-66.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:25 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:08:04 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 00:08:31 hmmmm looks like that may have failed. 00:08:36 I tried a clhs lookup and it killed ERC... 00:08:56 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:09:11 Adlai: hah 00:09:54 interesting, looks like I need to dig through more emacs settings. grr. 00:10:12 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-229-90-41.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:57 ok, it sort of works... now to get it to run in urxvt rather than xterm 00:11:45 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 00:12:23 *Adlai* now has instant hyperspec lookup! 00:12:37 no more waiting for XULrunner to load up :) 00:16:20 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:17:26 i put (asdf:operate ..) before (in-package xirafa-app) and seems work 00:17:58 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-49.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:18:32 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.84] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:19:30 could be great a lisp academy in internet, 00:21:44 hmm... an educational, lisp-oriented MOO. Now that would be an interesting thing. Especially with embedded SLIME :D 00:22:26 *sykopomp* has been working on a MOO for too long, but is failing horribly :( 00:22:29 yes 00:23:07 envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 00:24:01 sykopomp: I was really surprised when I read about educational MOOs on wikipedia 00:27:48 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@pool-173-73-92-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:29 -!- chessguy_work is now known as chessguy 00:28:39 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:28:56 i think that with book lectures recomendations, and code comentaries where great to me 00:29:17 and for a lot of begginers 00:30:19 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 00:31:05 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DEE9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:32:19 i know that my code is bad, and is hard to me correct it, the way i think is read great code from others, if some academy comments my code, i think that will be a great help for my lisp way 00:32:47 much faster, 00:32:51 pacopil [n=n@160.230.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 00:33:04 -!- pacopil [n=n@160.230.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:33:26 coding more, reading other people's code, and spending less time on irc tend to help improve code quality. 00:33:56 i'm sure of that :) 00:34:02 ;) 00:34:18 -!- perlhakr [n=perlhakr@c-71-204-5-66.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #lisp 00:35:28 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-229-90-41.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:35:43 some code lecture recomendation? i read somewhere that hunchentoot has great code 00:36:00 RauulSeixas [n=user5442@187.10.17.152] has joined #lisp 00:36:25 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has joined #lisp 00:36:56 ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 00:38:12 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 00:39:29 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 00:40:59 disumu [n=disumu@p54BCFED5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:23 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:56 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:46:15 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:46:26 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:18 -!- RauulSeixas [n=user5442@187.10.17.152] has quit ["eject"] 00:48:36 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:48:43 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has quit [] 00:49:02 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 00:53:38 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:56:56 Heh. Just got an email from a PCL reader who asked me if I was serious about using the cesspit of comp.lang.lisp to ask Lisp questions. (Not his words, but his sentiment.) Is it really beyond hope these days? 00:57:08 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 00:57:28 gigamonkey: I wouldn't be surprised 00:57:46 I blame Google Groups, in prat. 00:57:47 part. 00:58:05 I wonder if it would be possible to push through for a new group, moderated one, only for common lisp 00:58:07 gigamonkey: It is what you make of it. 00:58:38 p_l: there's already a couple ML on gmane. 00:58:53 Xach: Well, when I've looked at it via Google, there's just a huge amount of obvious spam. 00:59:10 I think I've looked around the same time with an actual newsreader and not seen nearly so much spam. 00:59:22 Though I think my ISP no longer provides a news feed. 00:59:24 gigamonkey: Yeah, google groups is pretty swamped. I use news.individual.net and it's clean. 01:01:27 You pay for that, right? 01:02:00 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068078072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:02:06 yeah. 0.02739726 eurocents per day, approximately 01:02:24 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 01:02:27 afaict usenet might as well be dead 01:02:57 it's unfortunate that there isn't a replacement that supports high-quality user-chosen reading UIs 01:03:34 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:39 we've got lots of good infrastructure for blogs but that's essentially centralized: one blog and its comments 01:04:05 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:04:09 mailing lists have high overhead for subscribing 01:04:15 and idiosyncratic archives 01:04:36 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:04:50 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 01:05:25 probably the most practically possible solution would be to write client and blog-server software for atom/atompub which supports some sort of distributed threading 01:05:53 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.224.147] has joined #lisp 01:06:04 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 01:06:04 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:06:15 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 01:06:27 Ralith_ [n=ralith@69.90.48.129] has joined #lisp 01:10:16 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AB60.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:10:54 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:11:14 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:15:43 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:35 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:17:48 kpreid: Jeesh. I'd hate to hear what the *least* practical solution would be. ;-) 01:18:35 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:19:49 kpreid: a single ML for planet foo comments, and link between blog posts and the corresponding thread on the ML? 01:20:52 MLs are fundamentally wrong, because they don't have reliable delivery 01:21:01 or integrated [recent-]history 01:21:28 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B32C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:41 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:14 WhiteFlam [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:16 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:51 also, mail software has lousy support for reasonable hypertext 01:23:58 it inevitably sends styling along with 01:24:11 and there's lots of community support for blogs/atom 01:25:19 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.211.229] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 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[i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:45:58 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:46:12 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:40 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-204-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:49:03 Quick question, I have a loop using read-char for input but read-char waits for a #\Newline to return a value. Is there a way to avoid this? http://paste.lisp.org/display/86743 02:51:29 redline6561: the problem is that you're reading from terminal in default mode, which means it doesn't send keys to your app until you hit enter newline 02:51:53 p_l: What stream should I be passing it? 02:52:03 p_l: *standard-input*? 02:52:45 redline6561: no, you need to change mode of input stream - read manpages on terminal I/O, it's more of an unix question than lisp one (you would have the same problem under all langs) 02:53:49 p_l: I'll do that. Thanks. 02:53:50 you might look for a curses binding or similar 02:54:06 (manual talking with terminal can be unnerving) 02:54:09 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 02:54:17 p_l: I find read-char-no-hang but couldn't insert it into my loop in a fashion that seemed to work. 02:54:20 clhs read-char-no-hang 02:54:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_c_1.htm 02:54:34 p_l: *found 02:54:46 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:54:49 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 02:55:05 -!- hefner [n=hefner@58.9.114.25] has quit ["arrrr"] 02:55:23 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:55:50 redline6561: that might not help, due to how terminal works :) 02:56:44 but I haven't done much with terminals in long time, so I don't remember specifics 02:57:01 p_l: It certainly didn't! Well, why don't I go read about terminal-mode and I'll come back here if I get stuck. Thanks for the pointer. :) 02:57:23 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:58:24 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:00:49 Good morning everyone! 03:01:02 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 03:01:46 beach: morning! 03:06:08 seisatsu_ [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:15 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068078072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:09 -!- TDT [n=dthole@254.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has quit [] 03:12:16 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:12:28 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 03:12:49 morning 03:13:17 hello michaelw 03:14:35 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:39 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:17:08 -!- antgreen [n=user@205.232.189.231] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:17:18 antgreen` [n=user@205.232.189.231] has joined #lisp 03:18:00 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:18:27 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:21:02 deech`` [n=user@24-107-144-116.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:21:20 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 03:25:43 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:25:44 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:43 -!- the-ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B320A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:27:33 minion: memo for redline6561: You need to put terminal into raw (non-canonical) mode. man 3 termios 03:27:33 Remembered. I'll tell redline6561 when he/she/it next speaks. 03:32:53 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-204-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:31 emmy [n=em@cpe-98-14-154-71.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:39:19 -!- emmy [n=em@cpe-98-14-154-71.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:41:17 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068078072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:41:54 yoonkn [n=yoonkn@112.169.40.70] has joined #lisp 03:42:41 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068078072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:52 Xach: herep 03:48:02 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 03:48:04 emmy [n=em@cpe-66-65-80-94.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:49:08 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.247.98] has joined #lisp 03:49:32 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:00:00 -!- antgreen` [n=user@205.232.189.231] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:01:31 seangrove 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by peer)] 04:35:45 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:37:56 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068078072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:41:28 jaws [n=jolyonwh@cb8faac9.atp.nicta.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:43:52 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:39 iwaki [n=hide@PPPa282.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:46:57 jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 04:49:26 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 04:49:41 *p_l* finds QPX guest account and finds heaven 04:51:52 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:51:54 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 04:55:26 -!- seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:58:14 /quit 05:01:47 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:04:44 -!- kerc 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[n=unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:15:23 crypto [n=z0d@62.112.193.85] has joined #lisp 05:15:45 -!- crypto is now known as Guest40477 05:17:41 manuel_ [n=manuel@e179026085.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 05:18:00 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 05:18:27 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest21609 05:19:47 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:19:54 -!- iwaki [n=hide@PPPa282.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:21:01 -!- Guest21609 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 05:24:24 benny` [n=benny@87.122.24.238] has joined #lisp 05:26:42 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 05:27:59 -!- lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-23-183.dynamic.amis.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:29:26 Draggor1 [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 05:29:26 -!- Draggor1 is now known as Draggor 05:29:59 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:30:07 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1A80.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:31:46 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:32:31 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068078072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:32:34 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068078072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:29 -!- benny` is now known as benny 05:37:09 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-78-239.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 05:37:24 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 05:37:25 morning 05:43:26 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["WeeChat 0.3.0"] 05:44:31 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 05:45:11 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:45:25 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 05:49:31 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 05:50:44 -!- emmy [n=em@cpe-66-65-80-94.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:50:50 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:57:37 -!- benny [n=benny@87.122.24.238] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:58:50 Is there any way to expand a symbol-macrolet in a backquote expression? 05:59:22 ie, if FOO is a local symbol-macro, does `(,foo bar baz) do what I hope it does? 05:59:29 (it doesn't seem to on CCL...) 05:59:48 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 05:59:59 Adlai: oh god. I shouldn't even ask. 06:00:35 benny [n=benny@i577A18EE.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:02:23 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-78-239.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit ["be back later"] 06:04:53 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:04:56 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:20 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:07:49 kerc [n=riise@31.84-49-151.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:09:07 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [] 06:12:11 -!- raptelan_ [n=Casey@c-68-49-132-34.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:12:38 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:13:09 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:17:33 -!- Guest40477 is now known as z0d 06:17:47 seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:21:26 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:24:29 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:26:52 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kdtsrvypwjpqmebj] has left #lisp 06:26:54 -!- lujz` is now known as lujz 06:27:40 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-60-128.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:28:45 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-118-222.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 06:29:11 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@adsl-75-42-224-116.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:29:33 alexbobp [n=alex@adsl-75-42-224-116.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:50 -!- lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-23-183.dynamic.amis.net] has left #lisp 06:32:03 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-aupcmbzxtehdtwuj] has joined #lisp 06:33:30 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 06:35:18 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Client Quit] 06:38:19 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:39:39 -!- Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:39:40 -!- jayeola [n=user@cpc1-lamb2-0-0-cust650.bmly.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:39:43 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@adsl-75-42-224-116.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:39:51 Fade [i=fade@66.207.216.43] has joined #lisp 06:39:55 alexbobp [n=alex@adsl-75-42-224-116.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:02 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.79.73] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:40:14 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.79.73] has joined #lisp 06:40:35 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:40:38 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:29 nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:41:45 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:41:54 hello 06:42:33 lujz` [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-23-183.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 06:42:47 -!- lujz` [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-23-183.dynamic.amis.net] has left #lisp 06:43:17 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-71-59-210-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:43:33 BrianRice [n=water@c-71-59-210-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:43:41 mrSpec: hi 06:44:12 DakeDesu [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:50 http://omploader.org/vMmI1MA \o/ 06:45:44 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:46:03 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 06:48:59 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:49:57 nostoi [n=nostoi@22.Red-83-50-2.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:06 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:53:54 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:54:02 luis: Hey! I've sent a reproducable test case to the ml. Any, but any helps will be really really appreciated! 06:57:04 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068078072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:57:29 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:57:45 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 06:57:54 Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 06:57:55 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:58:07 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:15 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-78-239.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 07:01:13 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@22.Red-83-50-2.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 07:02:23 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:02:54 good morning 07:03:35 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:03:52 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 07:06:46 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 07:07:28 -!- seisatsu_ [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:08:32 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:12:34 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp153.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 07:13:38 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:46 patchwork [n=user@c-76-105-136-4.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:12 redblue [i=star@ppp057.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 07:16:17 Hey all, while doing a darcs get http://common-lisp.net/project/bordeaux-threads/darcs/bordeaux-threads I am getting "Invalid repository: http://common-lisp.net/project/bordeaux-threads/darcs/bordeaux-threads" 07:16:28 Have they moved the repo without telling anyone? 07:16:46 (actually this is from clbuild install bordeaux-threads) 07:17:05 Quadre` [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #lisp 07:17:41 <_3b> seems tow ork here 07:17:56 <_3b> possibly you need a newer darcs? 07:18:14 Huh. I am using 2.2.0 07:18:21 what version do you have? 07:18:22 <_3b> same 07:18:30 ? 07:18:35 I wonder what I could be doing wrong here 07:19:10 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:54 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:20:04 -!- Quadre` is now known as Quadrescence 07:21:12 <_3b> can you see that URL in a web browser? 07:21:25 Yeah 07:21:42 No I know it is there 07:22:04 something about my clbuild got screwed up? 07:22:12 I will look around, thanks for your help 07:24:04 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@e179026085.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 07:24:48 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 07:28:15 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 07:28:43 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest81328 07:29:31 -!- Guest81328 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 07:30:37 -!- patchwork [n=user@c-76-105-136-4.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #lisp 07:32:12 prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:11 Good morning everyone. 07:35:33 ahoi spiaggia 07:37:15 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:37:33 mornin' 07:39:25 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:41:55 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 07:42:32 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-133-163.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 07:42:54 hello spiaggia 07:43:15 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:43:33 any lw users in here? Out of sheer curiosity, how much does LW's tree shaker actually manage to shake off? (as in, how small do images get?) 07:44:20 Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 07:47:00 fusss [i=cb2d4a0d@gateway/web/freenode/x-kfedsdagbmemxreo] has joined #lisp 07:47:32 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:14 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:51:07 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:51:09 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 07:53:54 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has left #lisp 07:59:19 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:59:44 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:02:14 Grey_Fox [n=chatzill@ppp121-44-219-228.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:05 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 08:05:17 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 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08:21:49 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:26:17 s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-226-101.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:26:37 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 08:28:37 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Client Quit] 08:28:39 metawilm [n=willem@kabel-9-126.kabel.netvisit.nl] has joined #lisp 08:28:43 -!- metawilm [n=willem@kabel-9-126.kabel.netvisit.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 08:34:06 yoonkn_ [n=yoonkn@112.169.40.70] has joined #lisp 08:35:08 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 08:35:32 guenthr [n=unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has joined #lisp 08:37:11 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 08:38:48 kei_ [n=gueorgui@gmt.su] has joined #lisp 08:39:13 letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has joined #lisp 08:40:07 kenpp [n=kenpp@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 08:41:32 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 08:43:20 same to you 08:44:11 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:44:13 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 08:45:41 jaws [n=jolyonw@124-168-253-144.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:46:15 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 08:49:20 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 08:49:37 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-23-93.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 08:49:49 -!- merus is now known as melus 08:50:13 -!- melus is now known as merus 08:50:38 -!- yoonkn [n=yoonkn@112.169.40.70] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:51:46 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:18 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 08:56:48 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:57:35 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:58:45 HG` [n=HG@xdsled176.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:00:02 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:01:03 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:07:30 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:09:33 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:12:07 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-28-117.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:12:12 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:13:29 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 09:14:23 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 09:16:14 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 09:16:15 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:17:17 -!- sepult 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out)] 09:37:14 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:37:26 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:09 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:39:02 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@81-174-50-136.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [] 09:42:56 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:43:48 letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has joined #lisp 09:45:32 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:46:54 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:47:58 Pepe__ [n=ppjet@78.113.32.245] has joined #lisp 09:48:44 ol3 [n=user@62.96.71.176] has joined #lisp 09:51:16 My most common Twitter experience: "Oops! This link appears to be broken." Tell me again how we're all moving to the cloud? 09:51:45 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:54 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 09:52:31 -!- letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 09:52:56 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 09:53:32 what is the utility of twitter again? 09:55:30 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:55:46 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp057.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 09:56:53 michaelw: afaik they are still looking 09:56:56 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@78.113.44.92] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:57:33 they're looking for the business. but the utility must be there for the users somehow already 09:57:45 hot air? 09:58:32 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:11 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:03:25 jsnell: I believe there were talks that they're making a bit of money already... 10:04:16 -!- lde [n=nnnnnuse@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:04:38 -!- woodz [n=woodz@host90-152-51-38.ipv4.regusnet.com] has left #lisp 10:04:43 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:05:24 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:06:05 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B320A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:38 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)"] 10:10:05 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 10:11:04 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:13:02 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 10:16:10 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 10:17:04 redblue [i=star@ppp106.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 10:18:22 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:19:24 bytecolor [n=user@32.159.58.199] has joined #lisp 10:19:50 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32BD80.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:20:58 is there any library to parse mbox-style files? 10:21:07 cl-mime apparently can't do that 10:21:34 bytecolor pasted "help with token iter" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86751 10:21:49 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:23:41 bytecolor: I'm not exactly sure what you mean 10:24:12 you can remove the need to FUNCALL by doing (flet ((next-token () (funcall next-token))) ...) 10:25:31 hrm 10:26:53 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:27:22 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:30:22 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:30:31 -!- seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:30:48 I was just wondering if that was the `correct' way to implement an iterator on a list. I'm not sure what to call it. I would guess it is a common programming task. 10:31:29 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:31:40 bytecolor: it looks correct 10:31:43 To be able to get the next item in a list from anywhere in my program. A global would be one way, but I detest globals. 10:31:44 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 10:31:48 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 10:31:50 except that I'd use SETF instead of SETQ 10:32:25 mathrick: I think I read somewhere to pick one (setf, setq) and stick with it ;) 10:35:22 bytecolor: in which case you should probably pick setf, because setq doesn't do you much good when you want to set a hashtable entry, or a slot value, or your own custom data structure 10:35:29 not really, no. SETF on a plain symbol is equivalent to SETQ. But it can do more 10:35:42 that was to bytecolor, btw 10:35:46 ah 10:36:05 Grey_Fox [n=chatzill@ppp121-44-219-228.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:55 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483ACFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:21 I think I'm going to be a lisp n00b for a while yet. The syntax is dead simple, but actually wielding the language effectively takes some serious mental gymnastics. 10:41:53 but that is the fun part ;) 10:42:44 and the really fun part is that new things will pop up all the time. different constructs, new builtin stuff. 10:44:22 nod, I'm getting it slowly. I dont really notice the parentheses any more, just look at the indentation instead. 10:46:28 pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 10:46:59 I read somewhere about the `shape' of a lisp function. How it somehow correlates to greatness. hehe. Interesting. I think it was Graham. 10:48:51 I'm still kinda of lost on keywords vs strings. I could use either. eq or string=. Not sure which to choose sometimes. 10:50:13 bytecolor: if there's nothing to make you use strings, use keywords 10:50:45 bytecolor: eq is a comparison of object equality -- are these two bits of data the same bits of data in the memory? string= actually has to check character by character, and is thus slower 10:51:13 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 10:51:49 hrm, so is eq using a memory address? hash? 10:52:14 bytecolor: reasons to choose strings: needs to preserve case, will be frequently constructed during runtime. Reasons to choose keywords: doesn't need to / shouldn't observe case, will be frequently used from code, needs very fast equality comparison (not very often the case) 10:52:21 memory address, except in the case of numbers and individual characters. 10:52:51 Interesting 10:52:55 Adlai: except that EQ will check everything, including numbers and characters, by the memory address 10:53:02 what you're thinking of is EQL 10:53:03 it's implementation dependant whether (eq 10 (+ 5 5)), although it's probably the case 10:53:48 mathrick: no, I'm thinking of EQ, I guess i just worded it wrong. 10:54:29 Adlai: no, EQ won't check numbers for value. Ever. It can just so happen that equal numbers of same type are also EQ, but that's implementation-specific 10:54:33 the concept of "memory address" is sometimes not as well-defined for numbers and characters, so it confuses people. 10:54:55 mathrick: did I say that's what it does? 10:55:02 memory address, except in the case of numbers and individual characters. 10:55:03 yes 10:55:29 I didn't say what it does in the case of numbers and chars. I did the same thing as the spec -- left it unspecified. 10:55:46 bytecolor: EQ uses identity, really. What it means isn't defined by the spec, usually it means memory address 10:56:08 Adlai: ah, right 10:56:28 cool, I'm not so lost on the issue now ;) 10:57:41 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:02:14 bytecolor: do you have hyperspec.el? it's really helpful to have quick chls access 11:04:03 -!- ol3 [n=user@62.96.71.176] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:04:14 ol3 [n=user@62.96.71.176] has joined #lisp 11:04:15 ljosa [n=ljosa@pool-71-184-165-211.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:50 Adlai: yes. I have it wired to slime as well ;) 11:05:15 bytecolor: great, that should help you from misspeaking like I did :) 11:05:29 I've been using it quite a lot. It's a great source of info. Understanding the info contained there is difficult sometimes. 11:05:45 sohail [n=sohail@99.251.84.57] has joined #lisp 11:07:27 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-101-61.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 11:11:02 -!- Grey_Fox [n=chatzill@ppp121-44-219-228.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:11:21 Grey_Fox [n=chatzill@121.44.219.228] has joined #lisp 11:12:12 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@pool-71-186-179-146.bflony.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:12:20 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:17:57 -!- ljosa [n=ljosa@pool-71-184-165-211.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 11:19:07 -!- ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:21:28 -!- envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:22:17 -!- pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:22:28 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122.57.9.204] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:23:17 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit ["lunch"] 11:23:38 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 11:23:38 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:25:16 leo2007 [n=leo@131.111.223.202] has joined #lisp 11:27:38 pjb annotated #86751 "with a list iterator." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86751#1 11:27:52 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B320A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:28:04 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@131.111.223.202] has quit [Client Quit] 11:28:27 ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 11:29:18 ljosa [n=ljosa@pool-71-184-165-211.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:29:25 -!- ljosa [n=ljosa@pool-71-184-165-211.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:30:10 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 11:30:32 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 11:30:58 iwaki [n=hide@PPPa282.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:31:16 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 11:31:34 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:34:32 -!- konr|afk is now known as konr 11:39:56 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-aupcmbzxtehdtwuj] has left #lisp 11:40:13 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:49 -!- bytecolor [n=user@32.159.58.199] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:42:33 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:43:54 pdenno [n=pdenno@129.6.72.17] has joined #lisp 11:44:03 silenius_ [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:45:46 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:47:39 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:50:07 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:50:31 iwaki1 [n=hide@PPPa327.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:50:38 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 11:53:03 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:53:44 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:54:20 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 11:56:28 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:00 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:06:13 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:08:56 -!- iwaki [n=hide@PPPa282.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:09:56 is there a portable way to inspect a closure for its lambda list? 12:10:59 portable standard or portable de-facto? (no and "maybe buried inside emacs-inspect in slime" respectively) 12:11:41 -!- vy [n=user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:13:07 Krystof: I see 12:14:08 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:17:06 -!- Grey_Fox [n=chatzill@121.44.219.228] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:18:09 is there a way in SBCL to skip default command line arguments processing from an image written with save-lisp-and-die? 12:19:22 levy: why yes! use :save-toplevel-options t and use your own toplevel function 12:19:25 oops 12:19:28 :save-runtime-options 12:20:17 Xach, oh thanks, I should have been able to figure that out 12:23:29 Liam1 [n=healy@129-2-175-69.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:24:08 -!- Liam1 [n=healy@129-2-175-69.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 12:24:12 -!- DakeDesu is now known as KatrinaTheLamia 12:24:19 dlowe [n=dlowe@64.130.233.226] has joined #lisp 12:25:18 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:25:28 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:25:49 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32BD80.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:28:57 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:29:06 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:30:04 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@64.130.233.226] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:30:34 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:32 anybody use clbuild to compile ccl? 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See 'em all at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/coders-at-work-stats.html 14:11:03 New one at the bottom of the page. 14:12:05 cool 14:12:06 -!- merus [n=merus@pal-176-050.itap.purdue.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:12:29 milanj [n=milan@79.101.196.41] has joined #lisp 14:13:15 where are the sweet tweets? 14:13:22 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B350.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:13:46 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B350.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:02 Yeah. I bagged those for a while. I guess I could make a separate chart. 14:16:25 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:16:56 gigamonkey: how did you generate these charts? 14:17:01 I mean with what lib? 14:17:50 galdor: he wrote the plotting and labeling bit himself, it is drawn with Vecto 14:18:26 nice 14:18:29 hmmm where does sbcl look for its core file by default? 14:19:11 mcspiff: see the sbcl man page under ENVIRONMENT 14:20:29 I hope everyone approves of the logarithmic scale 14:20:40 gigamonkey: that new noise graph is really something. 14:20:51 if my presence here is remembered for one thing, it may be "oh he was that nut who kept on banging on about logarithmic scales" 14:21:43 remind me: has anyone actually bought this book yet? :-) 14:22:50 hmm, it's fairly simple to install ubuntu in a virtualbox under ubuntu 14:23:03 Krystof: ..physicist. 14:23:44 hmmm not seeing my error, basically im trying to use my sbcl executable from slbuild outside of clbuild, but when I attempt to run it, I get dropped into LDB being told I cant use a core from a different version 14:23:51 unfortunately it's not that easy to install the cl-dwim libraries under it... ;-) 14:24:23 *Krystof* bows 14:24:27 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:42 Lastway [n=io@static-217-133-1-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 14:25:47 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068078072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:25:48 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:01 -!- Lastway [n=io@static-217-133-1-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has left #lisp 14:26:12 Krystof: actually I know that at least ~150 people have ordered it. 14:26:19 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-148.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 14:26:20 -!- ol3 [n=user@62.96.71.176] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:26:30 ol3 [n=user@62.96.71.176] has joined #lisp 14:27:05 Those are the people who ordered it through my Amazon Associates link. 14:27:56 I feel that you should include a histogram of orders along with the sales rank information 14:28:06 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:28:24 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 14:28:40 Krystof: I don't think I can get that very easily. The Amazon Associates stuff just tells me the number of orders over a date range. 14:29:21 could you query it once per day? The orders on one day is then the difference between... well, you get the idea 14:29:33 *gigamonkey* was just typing "I could--with a lot of queries--get the number of orders per day." 14:29:59 But all the rest of the graphs are on an hour by hour basis. 14:30:19 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068078072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:30 Plus, scraping my Amazon Associates stuff would require doing it as me which opens the possibility of Amazon getting annoyed. 14:30:55 stupid wireless.. did my last message about clbuild get through? 14:30:59 I wouldn't worry too much about hourly data on sales 14:31:00 for 14:31:46 mcspiff: you seem to load wrong core 14:32:03 (hm, maybe I would. I was about to say that I wouldn't be that interested in it, but maybe I would be: what comes first, the sales rank or the sales?) 14:32:06 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@64.130.233.226] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:33:18 Krystof: I suspect it's both. As I understand it Sales Rank is trying to be somewhat predictive but is also, obviously, largely driven by sales. 14:33:55 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:34:09 p_l: yup, think i got everything under control. Had another version of sbcl I had totally forgotten about 14:35:14 prxq [n=mommer@f051047235.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:35:25 hi. 14:35:51 prxq: hello 14:35:55 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:36:31 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:36:34 I have a question about sbcl internals. I seem to remember that the arithmetic was written in a way that was failry general. That one could extend it fairly easily and efficiently. Was that just a dream? 14:36:41 hi gigamonkey 14:37:00 I think it depends on by whom you mean. :) 14:37:31 i am talking about "overloading" +, *, etc. in a way that produces reasonably efficient code. 14:38:05 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 14:38:06 By whom? 14:38:46 Zhivago: by whom what? 14:38:47 I suspect you were dreaming, prxq, but maybe not... 14:39:01 there's certainly no userspace protocol for extending numbers 14:39:12 prxq: Overloading ... 14:39:40 but I might have said once that it would be fairly easy to support e.g. quaternions or similar 14:39:55 "fairly easy" meaning "quite a lot of work but not too many looming disasters" 14:40:10 Krystof: ah... 14:40:36 what do you need? 14:40:49 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:41:18 Not too hard, really. You only have to redefine generic-+/- etc, no? The part where one should think really hard about what they really want is probably more demanding. 14:41:35 Nshag [i=user@193.248.204.16] has joined #lisp 14:42:08 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 14:42:08 there's also convincing the type system that the weird object is a NUMBER 14:42:35 bonus points if you want it to remain an array at the same time 14:43:12 I had a weird idea the other day based around Ron Garrett's perpetual quest to allow ((constantly #'identity) t) to work 14:43:14 Krystof: I am thinking about automatic differentiation using overloading. I got the code from here working http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~fateman/papers/overload-AD.pdf but it's rather slow, of course ("forward mode") 14:43:28 Ah, type system (: 14:43:35 "looming disasters" :-) 14:43:52 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068078072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:44:06 prxq: that's what SHADOW is for. There's no reason to enter the real of C++ madness for AD. 14:44:08 raptelan [n=Casey@c-68-49-132-34.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:23 *realm 14:44:39 pkhuong: efficiency. I have a solution with shadow. But it slows down thing a lot. 14:44:57 Efficiency, really? I don't see it. 14:44:57 A little inlining might go a long way. 14:45:28 Inline the dispatch and the compiler might be able to optimize it away in many cases. 14:46:11 Krystof: how hard is it? Other than conses starting with (lambda ...) expressions, no conses with a cons in the CAR have a meaning, right? So just give it a meaning. 14:46:18 Zhivago: hm - that'd be a possibility. 14:46:33 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068078072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:36 in any case, if the compiler were reasonably easy to extend, it might be worth the effort. 14:48:01 pkhuong: you use AD too? 14:48:07 Nope. 14:48:38 -!- iwaki1 [n=hide@PPPa327.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:48:58 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:59 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 14:49:05 the compiler is straightforward enough; the type system is probably not all that hard either 14:49:06 pkhuong: not to corner you, but can you elaborate on the comment on efficiency? :-) 14:49:09 oops, seems like head SBCL does not build with clisp (apt-get install) 14:49:45 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:49:48 prxq: I don't see how overloading can make things more efficient. 14:49:51 levy: have you used the clisp flags "-ansi -on-error abort"? 14:49:57 pkhuong: I mean - the fully dynamic approach surely is bound to have a huge overhead 14:50:37 Krystof, probably not, because I don't even know what are they 14:50:46 That's orthogonal to overloading (statically or dynamically) standard arithmetic operators. 14:50:49 I did ./make.sh clisp 14:50:54 levy: that won't work 14:51:03 pkhuong: ah no. you overload to do AD (one reasonably simple approach) 14:51:20 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:51:26 Krystof, how am I supposed to build SBCL using clisp? 14:51:31 prxq: that's a purely syntactic hack. 14:51:37 I suspect that prxq means that, when he's actually adding numbers, (say lots of numbers), none of the sbcl transforms for e.g. adding floats kick in 14:51:46 because he's using ad:+ not cl:+ 14:51:49 Krystof: right 14:51:59 so, inline, compiler macros, deftransform 14:52:17 Krystof: ok! 14:52:20 Krystof: but the exact same problem would happen if CL:+ were extended for AD. 14:52:31 pkhuong: no, I don't think so 14:52:45 (defun foo (x y) (declare (cl:double-float x y)) (cl:+ x y)) 14:52:51 even if cl+ 14:53:07 Krystof: that's fairly useless in an AD context though. 14:53:18 whoops. Even if cl:+ is extended, the existing transforms on cl:+ should always fire 14:53:38 mkeller [n=user@24.128.206.113] has joined #lisp 14:53:44 -!- ben_m [n=ben@85-127-14-70.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has left #lisp 14:53:48 levy: by using clisp with those flags, not in its default non-ANSI state 14:53:55 ./make.sh 'clisp -ansi -on-error abort' 14:53:57 But then why not use cl:+ instead of ad:+, if one knows that the function will never be used in an AD context? 14:54:09 oh, pass 14:54:17 I haven't read what he's actually doing 14:54:19 pkhuong: well, to have all the nice optimizations :-) 14:54:53 Krystof, thx 14:55:00 pkhuong: I think saying it is a purely syntactic hack is underestimating the approach a bit 14:55:29 -!- mkeller [n=user@24.128.206.113] has left #lisp 14:56:09 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit ["HULK ANGRY! HULK DISCONNECT!"] 14:56:27 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:56:28 the overloading approach? Damn right it's a purely syntactic hack. It's much simpler to just shadow with AD:+ than to try and mess with standard functions. The end result is the same: you can write "+" to mean an AD-ful addition, and you still have to make sure the type directed optimisations you're interested in happen. 14:56:29 pkhuong: re. why not using ad:+, of course you would like to have them separate. But that might be done just by adding a type. 14:57:25 No, the point is to have ad:+ perform either a real or an AD operation depending on its arguments, instead of trying to shoe horn that in cl:+. 14:57:37 pkhuong: ah... you mean overloading is a syntactic hack? 14:57:49 not the approach to ad 14:57:52 ok 14:58:24 if only cl allowed one to inspect derived and declared types at macroexpansion time . . . 14:58:45 c|mell: request invalid. The request doesn't make sense. 14:59:10 -!- trsh [n=mock@93-141-14-81.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:59:19 (let ((x 42)) (foo) (bar)). What's the derived type of X when FOO is expanded? 14:59:20 trsh [n=mock@93-141-14-81.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 14:59:41 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:00:05 pkhuong, as i thought, the macroexpansion occurs before the type inference? 15:00:09 prxq: You did ask for help overloading CL:+. 15:00:20 ok. so the bottom line is: shadow + (assorted bag of optimization tricks). Fair enough. Thanks Krystof, pkhuong, Zhivago. 15:00:41 pkhuong: right, i wanted to tap into the optimizations of the compiler. 15:00:45 c|mell: can't perform type analysis when the CFG and DFG can change arbitrarily depending on what you analyse 15:01:23 -!- prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:01:45 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:01:59 prxq: the only time it'd pay off is when you use the AD-aware routine in a function that was provably (and trivially so, if a compiler can prove it) only dealing with numbers. Might as well use CL:+ then. 15:03:14 joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 15:04:40 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 15:05:02 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 15:05:12 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:06:01 If you're going to evaluate the same function in multiple points, it may be more efficient (and simpler) to build an expression with the operators and call COMPILE on it. 15:08:49 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:14:06 -!- csmerlin [n=smileymy@99-31-211-124.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:14:18 csmerlin [n=smileymy@searspoint.nvidia.com] has joined #lisp 15:25:59 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.226.250] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:27:39 -!- carrl [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:27:51 carrl [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has joined #lisp 15:29:31 htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.226.250] has joined #lisp 15:29:35 merus [n=merus@pal-176-050.itap.purdue.edu] has joined #lisp 15:31:25 moocow [n=new@65.61.237.53] has joined #lisp 15:32:37 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:34:47 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:34:54 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 15:35:22 -!- csmerlin [n=smileymy@searspoint.nvidia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:35:33 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:35:37 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:35:37 csmerlin [n=smileymy@99-31-211-124.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:19 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 15:36:59 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:37:47 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 15:38:33 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-229-90-41.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:38:41 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:38:49 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 15:39:20 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 15:39:47 -!- ol3 [n=user@62.96.71.176] has left #lisp 15:40:20 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:41:14 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 15:41:46 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:42:21 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 15:43:00 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:43:48 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 15:46:43 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 15:49:09 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:50:23 (with-open-file (s "/tmp/xf.txt" :external-format '(:utf-8 :replacement #\replacement_character)) 15:50:33 (read-line s nil s)) 15:50:43 => "ABC" 15:50:45 discuss 15:51:06 yay - complex external formats! 15:51:19 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:51:33 seems the only sane way to get line ending specs and other stuff in, as well 15:52:02 antifuchs: i was half-convinced i would see an oblique lisp reference in your last post 15:52:26 -!- moocow [n=new@65.61.237.53] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:52:42 Xach: right. I will have a lisp reference in the near future (: 15:52:58 once I get the thumbs-up 15:53:06 eh, the basic idea of democracy, namely that everybody has one vote is a *very* bad idea... this is continuously proved on television 15:53:10 (for speaking about it in public) 15:53:32 levy: indeed. same goes for granting everybody the right to speech in every medium 15:54:09 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o antifuchs 15:54:39 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:54:50 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-bopmzowwafsyhuqx] has joined #lisp 15:54:57 I wonder when will that change 15:55:04 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:55:08 -!- antifuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has been kicked from #lisp 15:55:56 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 15:56:17 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-133-163.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 15:56:17 -!- antifuchs has set mode -o antifuchs 15:56:29 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:56:43 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 15:56:44 *Xach* doesn't get it 15:58:45 Xach: get what? 15:59:29 the performance art of ejecting levy 16:00:18 yeah 16:00:45 in what way is an off-topic statement about democracy and television useful and germane? 16:01:06 this isn't a democracy, if El Presidente wants to kick somebody off, he'll do it 16:01:24 -!- kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:01:29 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:02:02 -!- kenpp [n=kenpp@84.92.70.37] has quit [Success] 16:02:11 at least it works 16:02:47 levy: unless you have something lisp-related to add, please don't speak 16:03:15 jsnell: I'm not luis! 16:03:18 (: 16:03:40 dysinger [n=tim@166.129.114.8] has joined #lisp 16:03:56 antifuchs: levy is a non-stop source of lisp-related content, so i found it hard to interpret your ejection as anything but a meta-point about something i didn't understand. 16:06:04 Xach: hm 16:06:07 well, sorry levy 16:07:33 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:07:35 antifuchs, no problem, I didn't take it personally, I also realized that it was off topic 16:08:52 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:09:08 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:53 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:11:11 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:12:13 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:27 schoppen1auer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:14:46 So I am trying to download/install core-server but the darcs get fails on cffi. Is there anyone here who has successfully done this install? 16:17:00 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdsled176.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:17:57 -!- schoppen1auer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 16:18:36 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:19:23 weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:19:35 Are the ELS presentations available? 16:19:35 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp106.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:20:25 Papers, videos, anything? 16:21:57 Who's taking their recording gear to ECLM? 16:23:37 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-36-251.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:23:46 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:24:27 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 16:24:30 weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:25:43 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:25:47 deepfire_: that is a very good question. Apparently not, and that's a shame 16:25:55 I put the slides for my tutorial up 16:26:07 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:26:21 weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:26:40 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:26:49 deepfire_: if you're interested 16:27:01 -!- deepfire_ is now known as deepfire 16:27:13 Krystof, very much, yes, thanks! 16:28:16 there are some ancillary files in the parent directory 16:28:50 ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.89.22] has joined #lisp 16:28:57 guille_ [n=user@168.Red-81-33-184.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:41 hi 16:30:20 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:30:29 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 16:31:26 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:33:33 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:34:29 letexpx [n=letexpx@85.68.141.223] has joined #lisp 16:35:56 |newbie| [n=kvirc@130.225.192.232] has joined #lisp 16:36:06 hello guille_ 16:38:54 -!- guille_ [n=user@168.Red-81-33-184.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:39:02 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:39:05 guille_ [n=user@81.33.184.168] has joined #lisp 16:39:33 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 16:42:42 holy crap c.l.l...., can't you realize it's just the same troll who's been around for months! 16:43:59 Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-086-103.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 16:44:14 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #lisp 16:44:17 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:44:37 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:41 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:50 Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:45:40 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.84] has joined #lisp 16:46:54 drewc: hah. i just sampled one at random and it's pretty obvious. 16:47:03 *Xach* has had that thread killed since it was born... 16:47:30 "Please stop posting so I can catch up" is great 16:47:58 c.l.l. loves a good troll. 16:48:24 if i ever met that person IRL, developmentally disabled or no, i'd have a hard time not punching them in the face :D 16:48:42 "try and delete this!" 16:48:56 *blink* 16:49:02 newsgroup or list? 16:49:22 minion: c.l.l.? 16:49:23 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``c.l.l''. 16:49:31 minion: comp.lang.lisp? 16:49:32 comp.lang.lisp: The end of the page was reached before a definition was found in http://www.cliki.net/comp.lang.lisp 16:49:51 Demosthenes: comp.lang.lisp is like a web forum but from olden times. recreational preservationists (think renfaire types) keep it going. 16:50:06 *Xach* enjoys it very much 16:50:13 *LAUGH* i know newsgroups, but i love the rennie tie in ;] 16:50:45 minion: comp.lang.lisp? 16:50:45 comp.lang.lisp: Everybody's favourite newsgroup. http://www.cliki.net/comp.lang.lisp 16:50:54 that's better 16:52:34 drewc: save the face punching for the spammers :P 16:53:02 Demosthenes: i don't see spam. 16:53:20 Demosthenes: i have a decent usenet provider to take care of that. 16:53:50 wankers, otoh, i have nothing but killfiles for. This particular wanker keeps changing their name. 16:54:29 *drewc* is not sure why he didn't kill the whole thread to begin with, but is now in a face-punching mood ;) 16:54:36 yeah, the google viewer is 24 of 25 spam 16:54:50 sad state indeed .. here; have some "sweet teen tits", "cheap wholesale nike air max shoes" and "chanel purses", drewc ... x) 16:55:04 -!- letexpx [n=letexpx@85.68.141.223] has quit [Client Quit] 16:56:16 i bet they have mountains of that stuff over in .ch 16:56:38 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 16:57:15 Demosthenes: that seems like a good reason to avoid google groups. I have 0 spam in 150+ messages using eternal-september.org 16:58:16 Demosthenes, there's a killfile-like userscript for google groups, so you can get rid of spam without too much trouble. 17:02:02 -!- thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:03:13 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:03:29 wait. there are people who aren't trolling on c.l.l? 17:04:00 I think that sums it xD 17:04:19 *Fare* tries cl-launch again with ECL, with good and bad surprises 17:04:21 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:04:33 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:12 (it basically works, but I need to add a few calls to TRUENAME 17:06:39 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:06:48 'afternoon, lisp. 17:06:50 *Fare* re-runs the full battery of cl-launch self-tests after modifying the code. 17:07:07 -!- raptelan [n=Casey@c-68-49-132-34.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 17:07:12 hi Fare, thanks for the command-line-arguments library 17:07:17 (previously broke at test 1300 after many minutes) 17:07:22 levy: was it useful? 17:07:30 xcvb provides use examples 17:07:36 BTW the test has an problem in the show-option-help function, it does not work for non list argument names 17:07:39 raptelan [n=Casey@c-68-49-132-34.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:43 Fare, sure, I'm using it 17:08:18 it could support default values tough 17:08:21 yay for users 17:08:33 well, if you send patches, I'll integrate them. 17:09:04 hi, some body using elepahnt , has herence clos support? is the 4.5 db the last vesion that works with it, the current is 4.7? 17:09:17 doesn't it already support :initial-value ? 17:09:29 oops, it doesn't 17:09:32 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:10:02 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:10:05 how does one send a patch in email using git? 17:10:27 I'm sure it's possible 17:10:27 coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has joined #lisp 17:10:29 git-format-patch 17:10:30 git format-patch and git send-email 17:10:50 http://andrewprice.me.uk/weblog/entry/generating-patch-emails-with-git 17:10:52 what I've been doing previously is git diff to a file, then send that 17:10:56 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:11:01 coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has joined #lisp 17:11:18 Fare: that only works if you haven't been committing, and you should be committing. 17:11:40 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:11:49 you can diff two revisions, but format-patch much better anyway (keeps track of adds/removes) 17:12:14 Fare: that looses some information (comment) 17:12:24 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 17:13:16 antifuchs, I'm not sure you'll recognize ADG if you look at our version of it 17:13:26 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:13:30 heh, great! (: 17:13:41 as long as it works better now (: 17:13:48 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 17:14:26 tho we reached the conclusion that if we want to go further, we'll want a full CL evaluator with code coverage instrumentation rather than a collection of heuristics 17:15:03 tic, that link is good 17:15:10 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:16:05 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 17:16:17 levy: for my colleagues I pulled together some information that gets them through the day, perhaps it helps you: 17:18:48 is it possible to log the queries sent by Postmodern to the backend? 17:19:20 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:19:34 guille_: i don't know what options are available in postmodern itself, but the backend has the option to log such information 17:19:39 the database itself, that is 17:20:28 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:21:05 ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-24-85.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:21:18 levy, good you found it useful. everything that leads to more git disciples is a good thing. 17:21:31 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:51 mcdonji [n=mcdonji@70.75.0.48] has joined #lisp 17:22:18 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B350.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:22:20 sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:25 I just recently learned to split up big commits. I love git so much. 17:22:30 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B350.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:38 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:44 tiny commits are pretty great 17:23:11 how do you split big commits? 17:23:38 if you haven't actually done a commit yet, you can do git add -p to add stuff to commit bit-by- 17:23:40 bit 17:23:59 if you already did the commit, you basically do a reset and then go to git add -p (iirc) 17:24:10 also you can have them in a branch and merge the branch as a single commit 17:24:23 or how was it.. I tihnk you reset to an earlier commit, then you cherry-pick the commit you want to split up 17:25:22 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:37 sykopomp: I love using magit for that, it has this nice "staging" mode :) 17:26:16 I'm not confident enough to use git reset 17:26:27 the only use of it I know is git reset --hard that loses changes. 17:26:50 Fare: when in doubt, make a branch 17:26:52 Fare: gitsum (emacs) is pretty nice for selective committing 17:26:56 and you're fine 17:27:27 as long as I'm mostly the only one on a project, I don't feel like going through all that pain. 17:28:09 Fare: it ends up being worth it, because you're actually able to look at your commits sort of like documentation 17:28:54 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:54 what I do is I just make a bunch of changes, then git add -p to make a bunch of smaller commits. I don't split up existing commits anymore. 17:31:02 anyone using hunchentoot 1.0.0? I can't see where to set the uid and gid anymore. 17:31:41 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:32:28 j 17:35:18 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:36:02 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-086-103.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:36:19 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 17:36:19 levy_ [n=levy@apn-94-44-6-69.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 17:36:24 mcdonji: that stuff has been removed. I have a skeleton package that I use for this on sbcl: http://git.cyrusharmon.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=trivial-setuid.git 17:38:37 thanks slyrus_ I'll give that a go. 17:40:02 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-133-163.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:43:10 lispm [n=joswig@e177154027.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:48:27 minion, memo for attila_lendvai: could you add a toplevel restart for STEFIL? i press "q" and it barfs "sldb: no toplevel restart available" 17:48:27 Remembered. I'll tell attila_lendvai when he/she/it next speaks. 17:48:36 levy: alternatively, if you complain on the mailing-list with a spec of what you'd like, I may code it for you. 17:49:04 question: can I do something like a typecase on an instance of a class? (I know I can define a method which would select said classes, but for this case it seems like it may end up more verbose than needed) 17:49:08 a first user is something to be celebrated 17:49:25 ljames: sure. defclass defines types too. 17:49:28 heh, this minion is a great gut ;-) 17:49:31 ah, thanks 17:49:37 s/gut/guy/ 17:49:43 s/guy/bot/ 17:49:51 ljames: from the spec: "Defining a new class also causes a type of the same name to be defined." 17:50:28 Fare, the only thing that I miss right now is default values (also showing up in the help) 17:50:57 can you contribute the test case? 17:51:26 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:51:43 Fare, sure 17:52:04 -!- |newbie| is now known as tomraf_unaff 17:52:27 :initial-value or :default ? 17:52:54 dlowe [n=dlowe@24.91.154.83] has joined #lisp 17:52:56 FAILURE with test 1362 :-( You may re-run just this test with: /local/fare/bin/cl-launch -B redo_test sh ecl exec noupdate image noinc file noinit 17:53:00 I think default, because initial-value looks like that it can be changed later programatically 17:53:24 That's what I like about automated testing of thousands of combinations -- I don't have to come up with the faulty combo myself. 17:53:50 Fare: I miss pfdietz's testing. His autotester was quite interesting. 17:54:05 weirdo, when exactly do you don't have the abort restart? 17:54:18 levy_, when IS fails inside a test 17:54:32 levy_, i'm not using your slime branch, btw 17:54:33 do you call that test from the REPL? 17:54:36 yes 17:54:51 because it works for me, if I press q it quits 17:55:07 weirdo, I don't think that branch matters 17:55:14 i use :compile-before-run t also 17:55:24 hold on, i'll test it again, i need to rewrite my testing macro 17:55:33 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@24.91.154.83] has quit [Client Quit] 17:56:38 blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 17:57:26 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:57:39 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:13 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-lsiieoidznritjcw] has joined #lisp 17:59:33 some NEU.edu guys at the last scheme workshop were presenting a generalized tool of pfdietz style automated testing of any language. 17:59:37 -!- tomraf_unaff [n=kvirc@130.225.192.232] has quit ["KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: , sources date: 20090115, built on: 2009/03/07 00:45:02 UTC http://www.kvirc.net/"] 18:00:51 -!- huangjs [n=user@p3045-ipbf2908marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:01:23 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:02:29 -!- guille_ [n=user@81.33.184.168] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:02:39 guille_ [n=user@168.Red-81-33-184.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:37 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:59 seangrove [n=user@76.90.50.75] has joined #lisp 18:09:06 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 18:13:11 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:14:09 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 18:14:27 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 18:15:28 Lycurgus [n=Ren@pool-71-186-179-146.bflony.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:47 nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:16:35 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 18:21:21 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.130.62] has joined #lisp 18:28:09 hmmm... how well does closure-html take to badly-formed code? 18:28:20 p_l: well, from what i understand 18:32:43 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:33:48 coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has joined #lisp 18:39:19 tagac [n=user@116.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:41:05 scottmaccal1 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 18:42:28 scottmaccal2 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 18:42:30 -!- scottmaccal2 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:44:06 scottmaccal2 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 18:45:17 scottmaccal3 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 18:45:29 -!- scottmaccal3 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:45:37 scottmaccal4 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 18:46:12 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Success] 18:46:56 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:47:09 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 18:47:09 -!- scottmaccal4 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:48:27 -!- scottmaccal2 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:50:32 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:50:36 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:37 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Client Quit] 18:50:40 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 18:52:08 scottmaccal2 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 18:52:09 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Client Quit] 18:53:31 I have weird loading issue related to fasl files in SBCL 18:53:59 this is probably a bug in our code base, but someone might have seen something similar 18:54:14 there is a file foo which compiles fine 18:54:40 but when loaded from fasl it tries to find a package (of another system) that is completely unrelated 18:54:59 if I define that package, then loading foo from fasl interns a few symbols there 18:55:09 but I don't have the faintest idea why is this happening 18:55:14 levy_: i had that issue for things that used (in-package foo) 18:55:18 the other package is not at all related to that file 18:55:27 levy_: it would intern foo in whatever *package* was 18:55:51 levy_: however, i patched that out so (in-packge foo) and (in-package #:foo) and (in-package :foo) all convert the arg to a string very early 18:55:54 (years ago) 18:55:55 we always use keywords for in-package forms to designate the package 18:56:01 i wonder if your problem is related, but different 18:56:24 I tried to trace the fasl loading, but that didn't help either 18:56:36 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068078072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:56:42 levy_: do you have a reliable example to demonstrate it? 18:56:50 shorter the better... 18:56:51 Xach, I had something similar in my mind 18:57:08 Xach, no, actually it is complicated like hell 18:57:19 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:57:31 it also is somewhat related to how asdf loads a complex system with all the dependencies 18:58:06 multiple systems are involved and if I load them in a different order then the issue goes away 18:58:17 but those systems are unrelated, don't even use each other 18:59:15 well, firstly, is there an (in-package ...) at the very top of the file in question? 18:59:23 yes 18:59:26 secondly, assuming there is, is that in-package absolutely definitely cl:in-package? 18:59:38 in all possible ways of compiling the file in question? 18:59:51 hmm, the symbol in-package is not qualified 18:59:55 so I can't be sure 19:00:08 that'd be the first thing I'd try 19:00:52 a related question: are all the symbols that it tries to intern in non-existent packages exported symbols of those packages (when those packages actually exist, that is) 19:01:03 and is it the CL reader and compiler in all those possible ways of compiling the file? 19:01:39 Fare, yes CL reader and compiler, but there are reader customizations 19:01:47 I think they don't have effects on this 19:01:57 Krystof, non-exported symbols 19:01:57 *Fare* got recently bitten by not fully qualifying a symbol in cl-launch which indeed was read in the wrong package if cl-launch had already been loaded as the in-package had been #-cl-launch'ed away. 19:02:11 -!- scottmaccal1 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:02:32 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 19:02:47 levy_: is there something that could have imported the symbols, despite their non-exportedness (e.g. an explicit import clause or call) 19:02:51 Krystof, if the in-package is not the CL one then it supposed to raise an error, no? 19:03:09 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has left #lisp 19:03:20 alternatively, are those symbols _values_, or other such similar things (slot initargs) -- i.e. not source-code-like things? 19:03:29 levy_: that depends if foo:in-package has a definition 19:03:55 I mean, you could do more or less anything in your codebase 19:04:00 Krystof, no, they are not imported explicitly, just three macro symbols 19:04:07 er, I mean macro names 19:04:31 Krystof, sure, but I did not in-package like things 19:04:45 does anything in any of your systems do anything to *macroexpand-hook*? 19:05:02 This is actually an interesting intellectual exercise: thinking of all the different ways in which you can confuse yourself 19:05:05 no macroexpand hook 19:05:48 say there's foo, bar and baz 19:05:52 each one is a system 19:05:57 baz depends on foo and bar 19:06:10 if I load-op baz then it compiles and loads 19:06:33 if I restart and load-op it again then it has the package problem in foo referring to the unrelated package of bar 19:07:02 if I do the same thing after rm fasls, but load-op the systems separately one after the other the it's ok 19:07:09 even after a restart, loading from fasl 19:07:21 so I guess there's something happening in asdf 19:07:39 no, asdf isn't magical: all it does is choose one possible order of compile-file and load 19:07:55 laynor_ [n=laynor@93.107.14.255] has joined #lisp 19:08:15 but also rebinds *package* 19:08:25 compile-file and load both do that 19:09:30 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32F150.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:38 asdf has temporary bindings of *package* while reading .asd files, but nothing else 19:10:42 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 19:10:53 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 19:12:08 Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 19:14:09 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B350.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 19:14:21 PissedNumlock pasted "memleak?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86771 19:14:29 does that code memleak or not? 19:15:00 Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@84.166.121.46] has joined #lisp 19:15:07 I guess not, but I'm not that experienced with CFFI 19:16:40 hmm, sbcl doesn't come with asdf "out of the box" does it? 19:16:41 without knowing the API you're working with, it's impossible to tell 19:16:45 myrkraverk: yes, it does 19:17:18 Krystof: returnvalue of readproctab is proc** 19:17:39 that's not enough to know 19:18:01 are the proc *s yours to free, or the application's? 19:18:02 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 19:18:22 bah, this bug is completely non-deterministic, pops up and goes away every time I rebuild the server 19:18:29 -!- laynor [n=laynor@93.107.27.105] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:18:37 similarly with the return value -- it could be returning a pointer into a library-internal data structure which is not yours to free 19:18:46 levy_: well, what do you expect from DWIM? :-) 19:18:56 and behaves differently on two different computers (while they supposed to be the same) 19:19:00 Krystof, good point 19:19:07 maybe it's the name :-) 19:19:14 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:19:28 why can't I eval asdf:*central-repository* in the repl? 19:19:43 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.130.62] has quit [] 19:20:11 because it should be *central-registry* ? 19:20:11 hmm, or maybe I don't yet know what I mean (DYKWIM) 19:20:28 Krystof: how can I find that out, source diving I guess 19:20:34 if only my C was a bit better :) 19:20:47 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:21:01 stassats, thank you; it's wrong at http://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/ then 19:21:18 weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:21:29 Sikander [n=soemraws@82.93.87.230] has joined #lisp 19:21:41 PissedNumlock: by reading the documentation that comes with the library you're using 19:21:48 Good day 19:22:21 A question of a (probably) nasty kind: Using activeX from a lisp (preferably sbcl): can it be done? 19:24:34 -!- sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 19:24:59 Maybe I should clarify: I have an activex component (sans source) that should work nice with VB (doh). Is it possible, with some ffi trick, to use it with a lisp? 19:25:04 Sikander: of course - the question is if it's practical :) 19:26:13 francogrex [n=franco@91.180.240.230] has joined #lisp 19:26:26 kleppari: Heheh yeah. I think it's possible from python (which I can use as well), but I have a lot of data processing functionality in lisp which I would like to use together 19:28:56 Krystof: don't find anything in the documentation about it, but looked at the source of pidof (which uses readproc) and that one doesnt free the pointers 19:29:27 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:29:38 thx for the help, I'll look into it a bit more 19:31:10 I've asdf-installed iterate -- I hope -- how do I test if it's there? (seen by sbcl) 19:31:48 I'd think(without knowing anything about it) that the simplest way would be to construct some C glue to the activex thingiemajig and use CFFI to talk to that 19:32:03 PissedNumlock: you should probaby be using freeproc 19:32:46 Krystof: comments of the function say: Free allocated memory with exit() 19:33:09 but tbh no idea how I have to interpret that one 19:33:28 but mhh yes, freeproc might be the function I have to use 19:33:41 deallocate space allocated by readproc 19:33:45 sounds pretty good :p 19:34:07 thx :) 19:36:36 -!- guille_ [n=user@168.Red-81-33-184.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:36:46 guille_ [n=user@168.Red-81-33-184.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:07 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 19:38:51 kleppari: Hum, I'll see what's most practical. The software I want to communicate with just has labview and activeX controls (and no source code). I just hate labview and don't know nor have the desire to know VB. 19:38:56 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:45 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 19:40:33 Krystof: after calling freeproc do I still have to free the pointer to the array itself? freeproc cleans up a proc* 19:41:02 silly question, nvm. I should think before asking 19:43:50 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:43:51 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:09 yes 19:44:22 -!- pbusser3 [n=peter@82.174.238.138] has quit [Read error: 105 (No buffer space available)] 19:44:32 the "free with exit()" thing is C programmer for "I'm not going to do any memory management, the kernel will do that when my process terminates" 19:44:53 with the idea that that function would be used from short-lived command-line utilities (not long-lived Lisp processes) 19:45:12 you might want to use openproc()/readproc()/closeproc() rather than readproctab() 19:46:29 atm I'm just trying to get some basic functionality and experience with CFFI (which is easier then (than?) I expected) 19:46:52 is it the normal attitude to let the kernel free up your garbage (for small programs) 19:47:19 it isn't that hard to get it right, or doesn't it really matter 19:47:32 -!- dysinger [n=tim@166.129.114.8] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:47:42 PissedNumlock: for short-lived programs I don't usually pay close attention to freeing memory. 19:47:59 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:49:30 i don't write many C programs, though. 19:49:41 *Xach* has written lisp libraries to avoid using C libraries sometimes 19:50:01 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:50:23 hi, i'm getting a lot of problems trying elepahnt, now i get a memory fault at 100029 , the integrity of this image is possibly compromised, some help please, 19:50:38 I think only in amigaOS does one need to be careful of memory when programs run less than a second 19:53:04 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:53:08 levy: defpackage :import-from depends on internal symbols being actually present before the form is evaluated 19:53:41 Fare: that's why :intern exists 19:54:17 but it has to be run in the previous package's defpackage... 19:54:27 -!- scottmaccal2 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:54:30 in which case the authors would have probably exported it. 19:54:52 packages are a bad module system. 19:55:03 not designed as one, fail when used as such. 19:55:09 well, duh 19:55:42 but used as such everywhere by lack of a better tool! 19:56:41 -!- Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-35-159.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:56:44 I guess only because people are used to module systems from other languages 19:57:03 lack of module system can be horrible, too. 19:57:05 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:12 also because packages LOOK like a module system 19:57:23 and provide one half of the functionality of a module system. 19:57:31 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:13 which library do you recommend to access Wordnet sets? 20:00:17 Fare: another way to look at the problem is that in CL you first have to configure your own language (in your own namespace). once this is done, namespaces leave the picture 20:00:33 s/language/dialect/ 20:01:05 What's currently the gripe about? 20:02:03 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:02:05 tcr: "packages suck at pretending to be a module system" 20:02:17 yeah but which bit exactly? 20:02:35 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.247.98] has joined #lisp 20:03:12 tcr: levy has some fun with heisen-symbols 20:03:14 The package system makes a lot of sense if you look at how the world looked when it was designed. There were big vendors which not only develop software but also distributed it. 20:03:55 Basically, everything was in-house. Big releases of the whole system. 20:03:58 also considering how long it took Scheme to get modules right 20:04:14 Anything interesting going on wrt module system and packages in cltl3 ? 20:04:25 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:04:44 -!- blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 20:04:50 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1D7A4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:51 schme: I doubt it. a) I think it's outside of its goal, b) who's got the time for it? 20:05:23 (: 20:06:08 I'm kind of unclear as to exactly what a module system is expected to provide 20:06:12 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 20:06:23 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:06:44 dlowe: Life seems just fine without whatever it is (: 20:07:12 I often wish I could specify a read-table associated with a package. *shrug* 20:07:36 You can in Slime. Named-readtables only allow per-file scope 20:08:03 So every file has to include an IN-READTABLE form after your IN-PACKAGE form 20:08:04 eh, automagically. So that (in-package #:foo) also set the read-table 20:08:25 more importantly, so that (use-package #:foo) would merge the read-tables 20:08:37 maybe I'll stick it in snarc :p 20:08:41 dlowe: how could that possibly work? 20:08:55 (merging read-tables, I mean) 20:09:07 michaelw: precedence to the last used package, I guess 20:09:15 michaelw: In general, or in this case? 20:09:19 ugh 20:09:46 signalling something like a readtable-conflict, would perhaps be workable 20:09:47 If there's an important conflict, it'll fail spectacularly :) 20:10:01 see, this is how schisms start 20:10:22 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 20:10:27 michaelw: It's not so easy. It'll basically conflict all the time 20:10:55 readtables specify syntactic property of _every_ character 20:11:22 michaelw, I don't disagree. Now tell that to the tens of hackers who've tried to do otherwise at ITA and at other places... 20:12:12 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:12:17 in other words, CL requires you to do a lot of plumbing yourself if you're going to build a large system. 20:12:19 -!- francogrex [n=franco@91.180.240.230] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:12:26 rapacity [n=prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #lisp 20:12:38 yes, Joe Marshal wrote about it 20:15:46 fully testing cl-launch will take a few more hours, I suppose. 20:16:11 but I already caught some bugs in corner cases with CCL and ECL, so it's helpful. 20:16:31 it's incredible how corner cases crop up. 20:16:58 you think you add a simple feature, and bang, it interacts badly with some previous feature on some implementation or another. 20:17:25 like? 20:18:19 pathnames :-) 20:18:21 well, I recently added to cl-launch the ability to resume from an image 20:18:40 oh yes, pathnames are a frequent source of wonder 20:18:53 Makoryu [n=vt920@166.219.247.14] has joined #lisp 20:19:11 -!- dmiles [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:19:19 Fare: you seem to be a huge fan of PLT scheme. If the initiative for scheme-core and scheme-large comes to fruition, will you be leaving the common lisp pastures? 20:19:19 and found that SBCL didn't save options properly in that case (patch now available by Xach, dunno if it was applied) 20:19:42 It hasn't been applied yet 20:19:43 and found that for ECL, that was not very compatible with re-dumping an image from that 20:19:47 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-36-251.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:20:08 (since ECL is linking, not dumping, so I'd have to keep track of the original files used in linking the previous image) 20:20:10 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@76.104.220.73] has joined #lisp 20:20:14 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@166.219.247.14] has quit [Client Quit] 20:20:46 (not impossible, mind you, but more trouble than I want for cl-launch; maybe something to consider for XCVB) 20:21:37 dlowe, I don't like the current state PLT Scheme that much, but I think they have a working evolution strategy, which CL doesn't have. 20:22:59 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 20:23:04 dysinger [n=tim@166.187.255.96] has joined #lisp 20:23:04 and a better base extensible language, too. 20:23:38 so yes, I'm probably going to move to Scheme someday soon. 20:23:59 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:26:33 Chrononaut [n=bjorn@94.229.66.40] has joined #lisp 20:31:34 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 20:31:54 xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 20:33:03 gws [n=g@w005.z209031033.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:41 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:35:22 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-23-93.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:36:46 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:36:52 deech` [n=user@24-107-144-116.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:36:57 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:11 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-23-93.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:38:10 -!- ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.89.22] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:39:35 what bothers me is that do we really have that many different tools to build big systems 20:39:49 I mean have to have 20:40:06 write your own 20:40:37 big systems are organized into projects (git, darcs), they are organized into ASDF systems, directories, then there are files, packages, definitions 20:40:46 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B350.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:12 lispm, will you pay my bills? ;-) 20:41:27 why should I do that? 20:41:41 just asking, one can never know... 20:41:50 why not just use the package system? 20:42:06 just use one long file 20:42:11 hypno, for what? 20:42:23 you can't be serious 20:42:46 why not? 20:42:48 i take it people have been writing gigantic amounts of code with that for the last 3 decades, why is it all of a sudden obsolete and nonworking? 20:43:32 the dwim.hu website (which is not yet running) is built from 87 projects that contains 224 ASDF systems 20:43:42 I don't want to count directories, files, packages 20:43:43 -!- pdenno [n=pdenno@129.6.72.17] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:43:48 hypno: compared to Java code, I doubt it qualifies as "gigantic" 20:44:26 224 is a lot 20:44:26 that really is a problem to manage 20:44:34 levy_: and they say lisp has no libraries... :) 20:44:37 why are there so many 20:44:38 ? 20:44:43 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:44:59 lispm: it's easy to create one? 20:45:08 I thought lisp meant fewer lines of code? 20:45:36 My Lisp Machine has 153 systems 20:45:41 it sure does, ime. 20:45:44 loaded 20:45:46 fewer loc doesn't mean fewer libraries 20:45:47 well, don't try to count the number of Java projects, you will run out of memory 20:45:57 it means fewer loc 20:46:00 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 20:46:02 hm 20:46:04 levy_: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/d23a942023da202c 20:47:30 hmmmmm 20:47:55 don't you build up lisp program until it does what you want in the end with only a few knobs? 20:47:58 a dsl? 20:48:31 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:48:50 michaelw, interesting 20:48:57 153 because it is an os? 20:49:27 gws, and libs and apps 20:49:34 michaelw: nice posting 20:50:15 still I rather vote for SCID 20:50:16 Xach: good call with the line endings 20:50:25 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-73-105.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:50:33 which is practically non-existent AFAIK 20:50:45 probably it would be useful to use windows line endings 20:50:50 is that supported? 20:51:14 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [] 20:51:51 lispm: I guess the problem is read-line 20:52:22 sure, but that should use windows line-endings or doing something clever 20:53:15 a long but interesting reading: http://mindprod.com/project/scid.html 20:54:35 i'm not that a big fan of rule 3 though 20:54:44 3. Don't use explicit package qualifiers you don't need. 20:55:12 it helps when reading code to see where the symbols are coming from 20:55:46 sounds like spring --- configuring packages 20:55:50 java spring 20:56:21 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.84] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:57:13 SCID = Smalltalk 20:57:29 lispm: could mostly be done with IDE support, hovering over a symbol could display information like this 20:57:39 lispm, I don't think so 20:57:40 levy_: also, see pjb's IBCL 20:57:50 michaelw, that's a misunderstanding of the concept 20:58:02 you can't do that practically with text source 20:58:04 michealw: i don't read code by moving the mouse over the places I read 20:58:22 it could track my eyes, though ;-) 20:58:22 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B350.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 20:58:34 perlhakr [n=perlhakr@c-71-204-5-66.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:37 lispm: most of the time you will know what the symbol is about 20:58:51 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:58:52 in code I know 20:58:58 But I read new code 20:59:01 what's this ICBL? 20:59:06 or code that other people wrote 20:59:14 long time ago 20:59:27 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 20:59:53 levy_: stores the source in the image 21:00:16 SCID: Smalltalk IDEs manages the code for you, store it, dump it, manage the deltas, browse it, refactor it, ... 21:00:17 lispm: I think it could work, YMMV 21:00:48 benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-124-177-91-65.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 21:01:03 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:05 InterLisp-D also implemented the SCID idea, like Apple Dylan and some others 21:01:35 lispm, can you annotate any parts of the code? 21:02:02 Lisp uses symbols, you can annotate symbols 21:02:04 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.247.98] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:02:17 heh, that's far from being enough 21:02:44 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 21:02:59 I want to annotate a particular place where the symbol is used 21:03:09 sure, why not? 21:03:48 you can't distinguish between (lambda (list) (list list list)) 21:03:52 Smalltalk is widely documented and there are very sophisticated tools implemented on top 21:03:56 thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:22 those list symbols are the same but different occurances 21:04:37 -!- perlhakr [n=perlhakr@c-71-204-5-66.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:04:38 sure, but what do you want to annotate there? 21:04:44 different meaning, etc. 21:04:48 -!- benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-124-177-91-65.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Client Quit] 21:04:55 what meaning? 21:05:10 So, about lisp packages. How do people usually handle the problem where (:export :foo) will export both #'foo and #'(setf foo)? 21:05:13 variable declaration, function call, variable reference, etc. 21:05:26 parse code, the meaning is already there 21:05:36 sykopomp: why is that a problem? 21:05:42 code walkers do this 21:05:52 michaelw: because I don't necessarily want to export writers. 21:05:58 sykopomp: use :reader foo :writer %foo? 21:06:13 lispm, you seem to know the answer, but actually you don't 21:06:27 michaelw: that's a terrible solution. As if having to tack on :accessor wasn't bad enough. 21:06:38 well, you don't make clear what you want 21:06:42 pdenno [n=pdenno@129.6.72.17] has joined #lisp 21:07:05 what I currently do is more like :accessor %foo :reader foo, and only export 'foo, and I think that's a bit lacking as a solution.... 21:07:15 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-23-93.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:07:28 actually you can't even solve this issue due to how macros work 21:07:49 expand them 21:08:20 if foo is a macro, then when you expand (foo (a) a (a (a) a)) you can't tell which a is which 21:08:27 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:08:44 so even if you walk the result, you can't tell what the original source meant 21:08:53 the macro can destructure its input, etc. 21:09:16 of course common lisp is turing complete, but it is not designed to support that 21:09:20 sykopomp: if you want bondage and discipline, you know where to look ;) 21:09:31 PLT scheme does it better AFAICT 21:10:09 which a is which makes no sense in CL 21:10:10 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:29 eh, it's too late for this discussion 21:10:33 sure 21:10:33 as ayn rand would have said.. "a is a" 21:10:44 drewc: it's barely even bondage and discipline. I think it's perfectly fine for an interface to not allow writing at all, because results could be catastrophic enough. 21:10:52 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229142141.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 21:11:12 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:11:21 and, I mean, we have a package system. 21:11:29 sykopomp: so, don't document the SETF function as part of the interface. 21:11:46 sykopomp: i mean, your users can and will set that slot if they really want to. 21:12:12 drewc: yes, that's another alternative. But I think there's value in actually exploring an interface without being nuked in the face. 21:12:42 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 21:12:49 i have never been nuked in the face because i used a symbol in a way the author didn't intend. 21:13:07 i have, however, written useful code using symbols in a way the author didn't intend. 21:13:40 hm 21:13:42 Maybe document it and put a "use at your own risk" 21:13:45 -!- Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:13:52 schme: "the consequences are undefined" >:3 21:14:04 hahahaha 21:14:13 the package system is for namespaces.. it's not an access control mechanism. 21:14:19 drewc: you have a point, yeah. 21:14:31 Oh we're back to modules again? (: 21:14:34 not like it's even possible for ANSI Lisp to do -any- form of real access control :( 21:14:42 sykopomp: thankfully 21:14:46 sykopomp: right... and we like that. 21:14:58 dlowe: I'm thinking in terms of sandboxing. 21:15:07 in which case you -do- want data hiding. 21:15:12 if you want b&d, plenty languages have such features. 21:15:23 Xach: herep 21:15:30 guille_` [n=user@168.Red-81-33-184.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:46 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:15:56 drewc: you have a good point about exporting symbols. I don't particularly like that SETF sneaks in there, but it's not the end of the world. 21:16:06 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-74-80.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:16:16 Good evening everyone! 21:16:17 (setf foo) isn't not a symbol 21:16:18 Or, lacking Xach, can someone explain to me why when I draw a one-pixel wide vertical line positioned on an integral pixel position, I get a double line but if I shift it .5 pixels, I actually get a one-pixel wide line. 21:16:23 although I do think leaky interfaces are problematic for users. Not because they'll shoot themselves in the foot, but because they might be confusing. 21:16:27 sykopomp: then only export the reader... it's a simple solution really. 21:16:28 This is in Vecto, if it matters. 21:16:36 Evening, beach. 21:16:54 drewc: how do you export the reader when (:export :foo) also exports (setf foo)? :\ 21:17:16 :reader foo :writer set-foo 21:17:37 -!- joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:17:40 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 21:17:40 drewc: yup, and that's what I do now. I was wondering if there was a way to just say "don't export (setf foo)", but that's fine too. 21:17:50 gigamonkey: I think I can explain that, depending on the software you are using. 21:17:52 -!- Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@84.166.121.46] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:18:07 how can you export (setf foo) at all? it isn't a symbol 21:18:15 sykopomp: the package system is about namespaces for symbols. period, end of conversation. :D 21:18:27 drewc: okay ;_; 21:18:48 -!- guille_` [n=user@168.Red-81-33-184.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:18:57 gigamonkey: In X11 and CLIM, for instance, drawing a line means drawing a rectangle 1 pixel wide with the center indicated. 21:18:58 beach: go for it. 21:19:02 drewc: I saw some madness on the cltl3 mailing list about standardizing REQUIRE's behavior. 21:19:09 it's madness, I tell you. 21:19:11 Ah. 21:19:43 gigamonkey: I hardly ever draw lines if I want precise rendering; only rectangles. 21:19:47 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:20:14 So to get a one-pixel-wide thing, you draw a what? zero width rectangle? 21:20:33 gigamonkey: No, a one-pixel wide rectanle 21:20:41 sykopomp: what's wrong with CLtL2's *module-provider-hooks*? 21:20:48 gigamonkey: like x y x1 y+1 21:20:57 drewc: I don't know what that is. 21:21:03 I haven't read cltl2 yet 21:21:05 sykopomp: so how do you know it's madness? 21:21:25 drewc: the suggestion on the ML was to require REQUIRE to do ASDF 21:21:38 sykopomp: are you reading the same mailing list i am? 21:21:49 "Get REQUIRE right. IIRC, CLtL2 had *MODULE-PROVIDER-HOOKS*. This is 21:21:50 good. There should be a standard way for defsystems to coexist." 21:21:54 beach: So if line drawing is actually implemented as drawing rectangles, why don't the line drawing primitives do that? 21:22:23 -!- joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:22:44 drewc: oh, I guess I misread. So it's meant to be a way for different system loaders to coexist? 21:22:55 gigamonkey: They do, but if you give line drawing integer coordinates, they will draw on 1/2 pixel coordinates, which is usually not what you want. 21:23:02 sykopomp: and to give useful behavior to REQUIRE. 21:23:21 drewc: that seems reasonable, then. I saw defsystem and assumed that meant "stick to asdf" 21:23:32 So when you draw your one-pixel wide rectangle, are the coordinates integral number of pixels or integral + .5? 21:23:42 kerc2 [n=riise@31.84-49-151.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:24:24 sykopomp: can't spell assume without... :P 21:24:40 gigamonkey: With rectangle drawings, your coordinates are in terms of pixel borders rather than pixel centers (which is the only sane way to do things). 21:24:40 -!- nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["http://www.widelands.org/ -- Latest version: build-12"] 21:24:41 drewc: :< 21:25:16 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 21:25:34 gigamonkey: So 0,0 is the upper-left corner of your upper-most left-most pixel. 21:25:34 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:26:02 -!- mcdonji [n=mcdonji@70.75.0.48] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:26:18 Or botom-left. ;-) Wheeeee graphics are fun. 21:26:23 pbusser3 [n=peter@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 21:26:44 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.196.41] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:26:54 gigamonkey: No, a pain in the neck, but once you understand the basic ideas, it is not that complicated either. 21:27:54 beach: until all the matrix stuff starts popping up :( 21:27:56 *drewc* is going fishing.. pinks are running and jumping like mad! 21:28:09 gigamonkey: sampling 21:28:28 gigamonkey: The problem with drawing lines is that a line has 0 thickness, but most people would be unhappy with such a result, so you have to fix that. The solution I cited is one possibility, but it is confusing. 21:28:31 drewc: have fun! :) 21:28:58 sykopomp: "matrix stuff"? 21:29:22 beach: 3d graphics, matrices, etc 21:29:29 francogrex [n=franco@91.180.240.230] has joined #lisp 21:29:44 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:29:50 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 21:29:50 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:29:55 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:56 Xach: did you reply to my post on comp.lang.lisp? 21:30:02 sykopomp: I am willing to believe you, but I know nothing about it. 21:30:06 beach: heh, haraldsson actually asked if anyone knew who the first D graduate was... =) 21:30:09 slava [n=slava@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 21:30:18 pkhuong: do you align SSE data on 16-byte boundaries on the heap? 21:30:22 ampleyfly: Did you know the answer? 21:30:26 mm, yes 21:30:35 ampleyfly: Congratulations! 21:31:02 there was plenty of talk about the conference, seems it was interesting 21:31:54 ampleyfly: Milan? Sure it was, but I had some admin problems that I had to take care of at the same time, so I wasn't as focused as I had wanted. 21:32:15 sykopomp: fun has little to do with, though it is fun... but the thought of fresh salmon for dinner, OTOH, is quite the motivator :D 21:32:17 beach, Xach: so maybe this is too much of a pain, but would it make sense when something like Vecto draws lines that are a) horizontal or vertical, b) one pixel wide, and c) positioned on an integeral pixel value, to draw it as a line actually on that pixel coordinate? 21:32:23 I _think_ they were talking about some conference at MIT 21:32:58 drewc: that does sound nice :D I've never fished before. I should really do it sometime. 21:33:02 Or is it really better to make people decide which way they want to shift it by 1/2 pixel? 21:33:08 gigamonkey: The problem is that "on that pixel coordinate" is a question of definition, and your expectations are not what has been decided upon. 21:33:18 -!- guille_ [n=user@168.Red-81-33-184.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:33:35 fph [i=joe@adsl-75-14-202-212.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:36 ampleyfly: I wasn't at the last ILC if that's what it is about. 21:33:44 levy: check out the latest C-L-A 21:33:57 beach: oh, ok 21:34:17 fph pasted "Plug in a hex value" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86780 21:34:19 ejs [n=eugen@39-205-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:27 beach: anyone can come to these conferences? 21:34:43 ampleyfly: Absolutely! 21:34:52 ampleyfly: it is encouraged even! 21:35:10 ampleyfly: Sometimes you can even find someone to pay your way. 21:35:27 ampleyfly: Next time is Hamburg in a week or so. 21:35:46 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:36:09 gigamonkey: "normally" the output device is not so low-resolution that you worry about grubby details like that 21:36:14 levy_, are you having syntax-case envy? 21:36:24 beach: =) a bit early on though 21:36:45 .qui 21:36:47 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 21:36:47 ampleyfly: OK, then plan for ELS2010 in Lisbon. 21:36:50 Fare, I don't what are you asking for 21:37:20 regarding CL macro expansion losing track of source location 21:37:36 for symbols, at least (for the rest, you could hash cons cells) 21:37:59 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 21:38:02 Fare, for atoms you mean, cons cells could be hashed 21:38:07 So it seems to me that when I draw a one-pixel-wide line on an integral pixel coordinate, I'm actually getting a line that's three pixels wide--the coordinate I actually asked for is empty and the two pixels on either side are colored. Am I at least understanding what's going on properly. 21:38:12 Fare, I'm using the source objects from pjd's reader 21:38:38 to pass those to macros which support it 21:38:43 either by accident or by design 21:38:50 beach: I'll do that. 21:39:29 this way I can semantically highlight, indent, annotate the original source code 21:39:52 once I get rid of this heisenbug you will have a chance to take a look at it 21:40:01 through the web server 21:40:24 Fare: do you have a simple example of how someone would start a project using xcvb? 21:40:29 er, cl-walker is also used of course 21:40:45 sykopomp, xcvb's README should give an example. 21:41:05 Otherwise, you can convert an ASDF system with xcvb a2x 21:41:06 iterate is a bad guy in terms of cons cell handling 21:41:10 -!- pdenno [n=pdenno@129.6.72.17] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:41:11 got it 21:41:14 -!- fph [i=joe@adsl-75-14-202-212.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 21:41:16 So I was thinking of maybe diving into the problems I was having with mcclim's with-room-for-graphics not handling clipping regions correctly. I'm not sure if this is doable for a lisp noob like me, but most importantly, I don't know if the incorrect handling of the clipping region is the "desired" behaviour that is "consistent with classic CLIM". 21:42:20 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:42:22 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 21:43:19 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:43:42 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:43:59 Fare: stupid question, but how would I load an xcvb system from the repl to work on? 21:44:12 do I always have to build an image?... 21:44:14 gigamonkey: I don't know, but here is how it usually works: coordinates are inter-pixel coordinates, so drawing a line would theoretically give you a zero-width line. 21:44:15 gigamonkey: that doesn't sound right to me 21:44:32 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 21:44:44 gigamonkey: so the convention is to instead draw you a one-pixel-thick line. 21:45:11 gigamonkey: Now, what would the corresponding one-pixel-thick rectangle look like. 21:45:16 s/./?/ 21:45:56 sykopomp, C-u M-x slime ./obj/foo.image 21:46:02 or something like that 21:46:22 -!- francogrex [n=franco@91.180.240.230] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:46:36 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.84] has joined #lisp 21:46:46 then you C-c C-k files into your image, etc. When you're happy, you rebuild a new image. 21:46:58 Xach: that's what it looks like, assuming--and this may be my big wrong assumptions--that "pixels" in a Vecto sense are actually atomic pixels on my screen. 21:47:09 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:47:09 I see two very thin lines with a very thin bit of space between them. 21:47:11 Which ensures reproducibility 21:47:22 When I shift the coordinate by 1/2 then I see one very thin line. 21:47:34 hmm 21:47:36 Fare, is xcvb deterministic in terms of building on two different computers 21:47:42 no file system order, etc? 21:47:47 gigamonkey: Well, usually it is obtained by considering your coordinates to be the middle of the line. So if you said a line from x=10 to x=100 with the same y coordinate, then we will draw a rectangle with the corners being 10, y-0.5 and 10, y+0.5 and 100, y-0.5 and 100, y+0.5. 21:47:54 if the two different computers have similar enough configuration, should work. 21:48:07 no file-system order. 21:48:10 gigamonkey: Now, how does your windowing system render such a thing? 21:48:51 beach: I'm assuming it's *actually* got to line up the pixels on either y, y-1, or y+1, right? 21:49:10 gigamonkey, or use anti-aliasing 21:49:27 So it could either push them out to y-1 and y+1 yielding the three-pixel stripe I described before. 21:49:28 gigamonkey: Well, if you use X11, the rules are clear (but I don't remember them). Essentially, exactly one of the pixels, either above or below the line are going to be drawn, but not both. 21:49:49 francogrex [n=user@91.180.240.230] has joined #lisp 21:49:52 gigamonkey: Other windowing systems might have different rules. 21:49:54 Fare: right. 21:50:21 Anyway, I gotta go run to buy some plywood. I'll ponder this more carefully later and try to wrap my head around it. Thanks. 21:50:37 anyone ever build something to replace Xorg with a lisp solution? 21:50:40 gigamonkey: Which is why, if you want a one-pixel-wide rectangle, well draw a rectangle rather than a line. 21:50:53 gws: Sure, nyef did. 21:50:59 link? 21:51:07 minion: clxs? 21:51:08 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``clxs''. 21:51:14 too bad! 21:51:36 gws: on the Symbolics, they punted and instead wrote a C compiler to compile the C source... 21:52:04 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 21:52:12 gws: clxs is not complete, but it's a good start. Let us know if you want to work on something like that. 21:52:29 Fare, but the Explorer has an X11 server in Lisp 21:52:53 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.180.240.230] has quit [Client Quit] 21:53:13 Fare: So how do you like my application for learning Vietnamese? 21:53:27 francogrex [n=user@91.180.240.230] has joined #lisp 21:53:53 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.180.240.230] has left #lisp 21:54:00 http://www.unlambda.com/lispm/explorer-source/explorer-lispm-sources/x11m/server/ 21:54:29 gws: Pretty new here right? 21:54:51 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-78-239.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:55:29 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:56:24 -!- thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:56:31 so beach will be in Hamburg, too 21:56:42 75 people 21:57:16 we need a live blog 21:57:33 well i tend to get kicked, but yes, I am a new b, and I am am trying not to ask dumb q 21:58:37 lispm: Indeed I will, and so will my wife (who is more famous than I am). 21:58:46 lispm: Have we actually met? 21:58:50 no 21:58:56 she is more famous? 21:58:57 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 21:59:08 is there a 'bitwise operator' in lisp 21:59:09 ? 21:59:15 lispm: Bah, she is the translator of LiSP! 21:59:23 ah! 21:59:26 very good 21:59:27 lispm: Bring your copy for her to sign! 21:59:29 what would happen if ALL lisp hackers worked on lisp X server and nothing else for 12 months 21:59:31 emma: there are 21:59:33 clhs logand 21:59:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_logand.htm 21:59:34 right 21:59:40 gws: it would be almost as good as X.org, which sucks dicks 21:59:53 good luck getting 3d acceleration working on nvidia and ati ahrdware 22:00:06 I love theo on youtube during his openbs relase engineer vid picking on hwo xorg gave up 22:00:07 gws: It would be a coordination nightmare. 22:00:29 linux get corordinated over the net.....distributed version control? 22:01:02 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:06 beach: we had once the author of L.i.S.P. in Hamburg 22:02:40 lispm: I'd be happy with presenter's slides already; optionally video, too 22:02:44 lispm: I just told my wife to bring her best pen (that she received when being promoted as the first and only "distinguished writer") at her company to sign your copy! 22:03:09 now I need to bring my book... 22:03:25 lispm: He is a friend of mine, though I can's say we meet very often. 22:03:35 well, Dan Weinreb is there, too 22:03:51 he can sign my copy of the Lisp Machine Manual 22:03:57 where he is coauthro 22:04:00 coauthor 22:04:05 lispm: That would be great! 22:04:21 lispm: I think you'll have a great time. 22:04:32 hi, somebody using elephand? iget ; caught STYLE-WARNING: 22:04:33 ; undefined function: LIBRARY-DIRECTORIES and Berkeley DB error #T: Unknown error 1048615 22:04:33 [Condition of type BDB-DB-ERROR] , how can i resov this problem? thanks 22:04:39 who else of these guys has written or translated books that I own? 22:04:48 lispm: Is Scott McKay going to be there? 22:05:05 not that I now 22:05:06 dan weinreb is a great guy :) 22:05:14 lispm: Darn! 22:05:25 salva: is your version of BDB supported by elephant? 22:05:26 lispm: Oh well, I'll see him in Lisbon. 22:05:27 I met Scott in the US 22:05:35 lispm: Great guy! 22:05:36 some years ago 22:05:48 slightly too much Dylan, though 22:06:15 Dave Fox and Martin Simmons could sign my LispWorks manual 22:06:22 lispm: Doesn't matter! He wrote the CLIM spec. Great piece of work. 22:06:48 lispm: Not the quality of the clhs, but not bad! 22:06:54 he does not like it that much anymore, iirc 22:07:09 redesigned it and rewrote it for DUIM 22:07:24 lispm: It depends on how you talk to him about it. 22:07:27 too much Dylan ;-) 22:07:32 true 22:07:36 stassats: yes i'm usin berkeleey 4.5 22:07:56 Nick Levine could sign a book he has not finished yet... 22:07:56 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@82.93.87.230] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:08:26 Stefan Richter wrote a book, too, but not on Lisp 22:08:30 lispm: Don't worry about it. He made some mistakes with CLIM, and he overcompensated with DUIM. Very typical. We just have to figure out what the right thing to do was. 22:08:52 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:01 big lisp conference soon in europe? 22:09:04 I find it a good punishment that he now writes lots of Lisp again ;-) 22:09:16 gws: around three per year. 22:09:23 (lispm: Who?) 22:09:31 Makoryu: ? 22:09:33 Scott McKay 22:09:41 ;-) 22:09:45 gws: http://weitz.de/eclm2009/ 22:09:47 is lisp on lines guy going to be there? or the weblocks guy? 22:10:20 lispm: And I am afraid I am starting to have ideas about what the right thig would be. If you want to talk to me and gilberth about this, then that would be great! 22:10:25 gws: http://eclm2009.agharta.de/ 22:10:55 beach: interesting topic 22:11:40 given that Scott worked also on DW, which kind of worked better than CLIM, which was a reimplementation of DW 22:12:00 thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:10 lispm: "worked better"? 22:12:21 like 'worked' 22:12:33 does more 22:12:37 has less bugs 22:12:39 heh 22:12:40 is faster 22:12:45 lispm: I take it you don't use McCLIM on a daily basis the way I do? 22:12:52 isnt CLIM in Lispworks/ACL pretty ok tho? 22:13:25 lispm: CLIM is a specification. How do you count the number of bugs? 22:13:43 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:13:44 I was thinking about the other CLIM implementation, which came before McCLIM 22:13:50 beach: so during the lecture (lisp 50 years), we discussed why lisp isn't more popular, and the main reasons we came up with were that most good implementations cost money, and there aren't enough free libraries... is there any joint effort to make a large, cross platform, clisp "standard library"? 22:14:07 -!- mbishop_ is now known as mbishop 22:14:22 the library situation is improving daily 22:14:40 ampleyfly: See Phosphorous for a great project aiming at being a truly Popular lisp. 22:14:49 lispm: I am afraid I can't say anything about that because I never used any of those implementations, plus, I am not sure implementation bugs give any clues about the quality of the specification. 22:15:00 Really looking forward to the full implementation being out. I'll drop CL the moment it's ready :D 22:15:14 beach, the specification is pretty good 22:15:16 ampleyfly: fascinating! 22:15:32 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:15:41 beach, IIRC in many places it is like LML to CL, DW is more complete in several areas 22:15:43 ampleyfly: see cltl3 for an actual effort to add more 'standard' stuff to the language. 22:15:48 -!- ejs [n=eugen@39-205-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:16:17 beach: in other areas CLIM (as a spec) has more (like the adaptive look&feel) 22:16:24 I like to think that a little more infrastructure would go a long way for CL 22:16:32 Today I came across the BBN SpyGlass CLIM application. 22:16:34 beach: I know the conclusion isn't very interesting... but I really don't know if there is any such project going on, and I'd like to =) 22:16:56 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:17:00 things like a simple IDE for people to whet their appetite with, a better library distribution mechanism, promotion within the community of actual version tagging, and, of course, cltl3 22:17:01 beach, the DW manual and the DW programmers guide is available as PDF, might be useful to at least have a look at it 22:17:06 lispm: I am biased so I won't say much, but most objections to CLIM are unfounded. 22:17:19 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:31 beach: I don't really disagree there 22:17:36 beach: hefner has some strong grumbles about McCLIM :) 22:18:33 ampleyfly: most of those questions are discussed here all the time and we know the answers, so why did the conference not just hook up to #lisp? 22:18:54 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:18:56 beach: it is just that CLIM also was an implementation which lacked basic stuff like text selection, ... 22:19:18 beach: oh, this was just a two hour lecture, on the history of lisp basically 22:19:48 sorry if I'm a bit unclear about the context =) 22:20:32 beach: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/symbolics/software/genera_8/User_Interface_Dictionary.pdf 22:20:56 beach: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/symbolics/software/genera_8/Programming_the_User_Interface.pdf 22:21:26 I wonder if ITA is like fimserve at Fox audience network: berkeley DB backed that essentially is sme idea as www.prevayler.org with streamed transaction logs to disk and reads all from hot memory and writes only commited after transaction streamed to disk, with a big memory dump to disk every so often 22:21:37 beach: these are the DW manuals 22:21:46 fox spent 100m on strategicdatacorp to get that 22:21:46 sykopomp: ... 22:21:51 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 22:22:03 ampleyfly: ? 22:22:05 lispm: There are things that really puzzle me in this area. Those are not your fault of course. But what makes people abandon CLIM citing a problem like text selection, in favor of something like using GTK over CFFI, thereby creating orders of magnitude more problems for themselves, rather than investing a little time to improve McCLIM for everyone? I have thought about this a lot, but I still don't get it! 22:22:26 people are lazy 22:22:40 I use archlinux over plan9 cuz its a ton fo work to get used to the interface of plan9 22:22:52 [for me] 22:22:54 beach: the text selection is a problem of the original clim implementation 22:23:01 sykopomp: sorry, I just found phosphorous not to be for me. :P 22:23:09 lispm: Thanks! I must have read them at some point in the past. 22:23:22 lispm: So? 22:23:28 gws: there are two implementations of prevalence-style persistence for CL: cl-prevalence and bknr's datastore. 22:23:39 the latter is really great. Definitely worth playing with. 22:23:44 beach: McCLIM currently still needs easier packaging, mostly I'd think 22:23:53 ampleyfly: that's unfortunate. 22:24:49 beach: there is some inherent complexity in CL + CLOS + CLIM, that needs to be addressed 22:25:03 sykopomp: cltl3 seems to be what I was looking for, what's with the name? 22:25:09 lispm: really, complexity? you think? (-: 22:25:17 ampleyfly: common lisp, the language 3 22:25:23 ampleyfly: see cltl and cltl2 22:25:26 antifuchs: CL + CLOS already 22:25:27 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-76-254-8-251.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:29 *antifuchs* giggles at the understatement 22:25:43 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.2/20090729225027]"] 22:25:53 lispm: right so because of this, it is clear that not just McCLIM but the entire CLIM idea, and why not Common Lisp altogether, must be crap, so let's all just go CFFI and C and GTK instead. Get it? 22:26:01 -!- levy_ [n=levy@apn-94-44-6-69.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:26:04 antifuchs: actually most of the alternatives are not that much better 22:26:18 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:18 beach: some people would argue exactly that. 22:26:22 without the sarcasm 22:26:31 surely not, and I like how clim solves some problems, and clos and how it makes some complex stuff possible (: 22:26:49 I always imagine the "C" is for "Complex" and leave it at that (: 22:26:55 beach: the most important thing is to provide a path to be able to use that, that's all 22:27:04 personally, I don't see how CL is more complex than python. It's certainly a smaller language. 22:27:14 beach: many people can learn to use it, but they need to see how and why 22:27:35 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:27:36 sykopomp: I know. And I think they are the same people that argue in favor of (say) Java wrt Lisp, and thus waste the opportunity to gain a factor 10 or more in productivity. 22:27:42 sykopomp: it is not only the language, it is how you use it 22:27:57 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 22:28:25 many people fail at explaining how to get the factor 10, that's the thing 22:28:32 a book like PCL helps a lot 22:28:41 yeah 22:28:52 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.84] has quit ["Leaving..."] 22:29:07 lispm: I can't help those people. I can only help the ones that want to improve. 22:29:09 PCL is really good helping people understanding the basic concepts and help them to see how to apply 22:29:20 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Success] 22:29:22 beach: that's already a lot 22:29:33 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-181-16.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:29:54 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-143.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 22:29:55 beach: my personal experience is that people are more than willing to use lisp when there's an interesting project to work on. 22:30:11 beach: the problem might be that you get a good system that only a few can or want to use 22:30:18 -!- tagac [n=user@116.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has left #lisp 22:30:31 lispm: I don't care. 22:30:37 beach: I was working on a dinky IRC bot in lisp. After a week, there were about 5 of us working on it. Only two of us were actually lispers. 22:30:44 beach: the good thing with McCLIM is that it has lots of interesting projects already 22:30:50 lispm: If I cared, I wouldn't use CL, nor recommend it to others. 22:31:15 sykopomp: That's great! 22:31:23 heck, it even used Sheeple. I think one approach that seems to work really reliably is "start a project that's interesting to work on". 22:31:45 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 22:31:47 beach: it irked me a bit, since I have all these other projects that -I- find much more interesting, and the IRC bot was crap. 22:31:55 beach: I would really think that it is important to be able draw new blood 22:31:59 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122.57.9.204] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:32:06 but it got a -ton- of work put into it in a very short amount of time. People just kept coming to it. 22:32:26 well lisp and CLIM can be good at "drawing blood" :P 22:32:41 beach: part of the failure of the Lisp Machine was also that the users often liked it, but the amount of people able to use it effectively were not that large 22:32:56 my eyes sort of glaze over when I look at the CLIM docs. I need to actually get around to giving it a serious shot. 22:32:57 'overengineering' was a common problem 22:33:32 sykopomp: the CLIM docs are pretty good IMHO 22:33:43 i'm begining with lisp this month, with sbcl, and is no easy, for example i pass all day trying to run elephant, and don't found how to solve my installation errors, i try it in osx an gentoo 22:34:11 I spent a week trying to get elephant to work at all, and failed pretty hard. 22:34:33 my impression is that elephant is an unrunnable mess that picks who it builds for non-deterministically 22:34:44 must i use postmaster? 22:34:51 errr 22:34:54 postmodern 22:35:05 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [No route to host] 22:35:13 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 22:35:27 beach: did you sign up for a lightning demo in Hamburg? 22:35:47 but i'd like some that make clos herence persistent, there are an other library for that 22:37:01 the lightning talk idea is great, you get five minutes and a beamer, might be interesting to show some McCLIM stuff 22:37:07 salva: the only one that worked well for me was bknr.datastore 22:37:22 slava: we magically have alignment on x86-64. 22:37:24 salva: i'd recommend rucksack myself. 22:37:35 minion: tell salva about rucksack 22:37:35 salva: please see rucksack: Rucksack is a persistence library for Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/rucksack 22:37:38 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:38:33 ok thanks i'll try it, i very ilusionate with lisp for my little cms erp project 22:38:45 this can only end in tears. 22:39:42 what's wrong with the cl-sql thing? 22:39:53 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:39:53 Anyone here familiar with cl-containers or cl-graph? I want to do do something like mapcar but for a specific container, as in, create a new container where each element is replaced with (fn element). iterate-container seems similar to what I want, but it doesn't say that it does anything with the results from the funcall. 22:40:55 lispm: I didn't sign up for anything in Hamburg eccept the meeting, the food, and the hotel. 22:41:23 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:35 you might check with Edi if you would like to do a five minute lighting talk 22:41:40 or Arthur 22:42:10 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:42:12 lispm: i think is in other level of abstaction, the presistent in clos herence in my case i'd like have it 22:42:55 lispm: I really don't. I am tired of giving talks, especially now. I would rather talk to people individually, or if those individuals want me to say somthing I might. 22:43:18 push Gilberth ;-) 22:45:26 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:45:30 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:46:06 how many cost allegro with his persistem system? 22:46:25 salva: your soul 22:46:52 :) 22:46:54 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:47:07 or a few grand, depending on which one's more valuable to you. 22:47:56 sykopomp: I would sell my sould for a few bucks to anyone would believe that it would work. 22:48:45 beach: good point :) 22:49:14 gigamonkey: there might be any number of transforms in effect that make it hard to talk about what's really a vertical or horizontal line on an integral boundary 22:49:22 is rucksack under developmend or is a semi abandone project? 22:50:05 Oh dear, it is *way* past my bedtime. See you in the morning! 22:50:06 seems only alemmens working on it 22:50:23 beach: have a good night, beach. 22:51:20 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:11 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1"] 22:55:55 -!- thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:56:20 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 22:59:44 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:00:05 weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 23:00:42 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:00:58 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:02:41 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:04:09 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f051047235.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:04:16 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has quit [Client Quit] 23:05:04 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:06:59 Anyone familiar with the sbcl-debugger? 23:09:10 rucksack hmmmm 23:09:32 ? 23:09:37 slash_: i only use the slime debugger 23:09:57 Isn't that the same? 23:10:11 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:10:23 weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 23:10:25 anyone ever gotten ahold of paul grahams viaweb editor code? 23:11:14 I mean something like "Error at character 6120" is hardly helpful. 23:12:10 gws: He claimed to have sent it to me, but when I untarred it, all I found was a message saying it would be trivial to implement myself 23:12:20 lol 23:12:45 anyway, I heard most of it got reimplemented in C++? 23:13:09 success with test 1837 :-) -- time to release cl-launch 2.23 23:13:21 slash_: No. 23:13:30 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 23:13:34 slash_: the slime debugger will jump to the source of the frame in the editor 23:13:48 slash_: if you compile with higher debug, it will jump to the individual form that caused the error 23:14:10 Well I'm doing (load "foo.lisp") :P 23:14:13 with slime and sbcl, C-u C-c C-c will compile a defun with high debug. 23:14:22 slash_: Time to enter the 80s and use emacs and slime. 23:14:29 And it fails already. 23:14:37 I've slime here as well. 23:14:50 But all i get is Backtrace. 23:15:08 slash_: try using C-c C-k when visiting the file. 23:15:40 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:16:43 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:17:06 Woah way better :D 23:17:19 Thank you. 23:17:50 lol 23:18:22 so how realistic is it for a guy to learn lisp from scratch and then create a lisp powered website? 23:19:07 gws: pretty realistic. that's what i did. 23:19:39 the website was recently named "awesomest lisp-powered graphics toy website" by Oddly Specific Prize Category Magazine 23:19:54 gws i'm doing that 23:20:27 http://wigflip.com/ is my site 23:20:41 with hunchentoot cl-routes cl-who , i'm looking how made persistence 23:22:46 gws: i did that as well, using UCW. 23:23:14 (doing webapps rather than websites, but same idea) 23:26:41 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177154027.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:28:08 are there any recent lisps? 23:28:24 dialects younger than CL or scheme? 23:28:25 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:28:45 <``Erik> 'arc'? 'clojure'? 23:29:14 anything else? 23:29:31 OmniMancer: Sure, plenty of stuff, mostly founded on horribly misguided design principles 23:29:39 :( 23:29:51 For example, newLisp was started with the goal of making dynamic scope popular again (wheee) 23:30:13 but dynamic scope not necessarily useful? 23:30:45 Xach: Problem solved. But now C-c C-k cannot find a package i installed with ASDF. 23:30:46 Well, anything useful you could do with dynamic scope, you could probably do just as well with macros 23:31:22 and lexical scope gives you closures :D 23:31:28 Yup 23:31:28 any usefulness of default-dynamic scope is offset by the terrible time you have debugging typos in variables with too short hamming distances 23:31:47 yay for inefficient development :D 23:32:28 and yay for using the term hamming distances to symbols ;) 23:32:29 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:29 OmniMancer: Also, Arc is probably outclassed by Pico Lisp, which has a custom interpreter and everything 23:32:46 Ahhh I accidently entered a character before (asdf:operate...) : 23:32:50 D 23:32:56 but picolisp is an exercise in inefficiency? 23:33:30 OmniMancer: Well, it's not terribly less useful than Arc.... 23:33:46 and who's author seems to be confused between the meaning of compiled and interpreted 23:34:19 to me, it seems arc is just trying to put mainstream syntax into lisp (= ) for assignments 23:34:29 *OmniMancer* cries 23:34:33 setf > = 23:34:37 or 23:34:47 (> setf =) => T 23:35:01 I'd actually live happily with <--- (in one character) 23:35:04 allegro for linux 64 bits with persistent cache 11500$ 23:35:15 = is also nice for number equality :D 23:35:25 that is the mathematical way, and looks better, when considering tthe context of arc's goals 23:35:44 <- in one character could be used for other stuff and is hard to type :( 23:35:55 Makoryu: dynamic scope is pretty handy 23:36:19 pkhuong: so everything is 16-byte aligned on x86-64, and you dont' bother with sse support on x86-32? 23:36:46 OmniMancer, arc, as meant to be a lisp for the next 100 years, does not have any reason to limit itself to the hw (kbds) of today 23:37:13 slava: Not so useful as to be the default, however.... 23:37:15 wow, salva and slava on the channel (: 23:37:19 are you two the same person? 23:37:24 no 23:37:27 haha 23:37:50 I could rant about insufficiently hamming-distant dynamic variable names (-: 23:38:02 yay 23:38:04 Makoryu: they probably shouldn't even shre the same syntax 23:38:07 OmniMancer, I mean, *really* think about it, and you see that programming language design, from the ground up, doesn't have to limit itself to the hw or conventions we have today 23:38:17 yes 23:38:24 but if it is hard to use now 23:38:30 chances are it won't be used 23:38:41 slava: Yeah. Come to think of it, isn't CL's function namespace dynamically scoped? (I know the data namespace is lexically scoped...) 23:38:55 Makoryu: no, the function namespace is lexically scoped 23:39:04 there's no dynamic equivalent to flet and labels IIRC 23:39:11 oh yes 23:39:13 what slava says 23:39:32 what are the advantages of lisp over forth? 23:39:39 OmniMancer, <-- can be used as a trigraph (C++ terminology) for <- in one char, but that's just a detail; it *may* not be a good idea to use <-, but it's certainly no worse than = 23:39:41 all function namespaces are lexically scoped because they depend on the structure of the program 23:40:03 gws: they're completely different languages 23:40:10 forth is a systems language, more like C 23:40:23 so for gforth I have a long way to a website? 23:40:23 lisp is higher level in most ways 23:40:28 it has compile time metaprogramming but its not really comparable to lisp macros; its more based on extending the reader 23:40:43 gws: What are the advantages of driving over walking? (Hint: You can traverse greater distances, but you can't go up stairs) 23:41:00 deep 23:41:06 gws: joy combines lisp and forth aspects 23:41:29 all the readability of forth with all the incomprehensibility of lisp? 23:41:43 hahaha 23:42:33 like C 23:42:47 all the power of assembly combined with all the readability of assembly 23:42:49 am I confusing things, or does forth have whitespace scopes, like python? 23:42:57 no 23:42:57 no it doesn't 23:43:03 forth is format free 23:43:05 in forth, the only syntax is taht you have whitespace separated tokens 23:43:10 good, imho, whitespace scopes are evil 23:43:12 indeed 23:43:20 they cause issues with tab :D 23:43:59 they cause issues with more-than-screen-full: now what excactly is the indentation level I'm looking at? 23:44:00 some forths have local variables but its not required 23:44:10 so most of the time there's no 'scope' at all in forth code 23:44:23 slava, ah, like assembly ;) 23:45:34 (and no one shall ever mention white space scopes in the context of hardcopied code) 23:45:49 myrkraverk: if you want to have a superficial understanding, sure, its like assembly 23:45:50 myrkraverk: Ugh, if people indent their Python programs by more than 6 spaces.... They should fix their programs! 23:45:59 lisp is also like assembly, in the sense that you have to count parens by hand in both languages 23:46:22 assembly doesn't use heavily nested parrens? 23:46:32 but you have to keep track of them by hand, like lisp 23:46:50 but it isn't a problem :P 23:47:48 slava, superficial is what I can deal with right now, I can't spare the time this week to learn yet-another-programming-language -- but if/when I have time/reason, I just might 23:47:49 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:48:09 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-76-254-8-251.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:48:17 http://globalnerdy.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/forth_on_the_atari.jpg I think it's pretty clear from this that forth is a superior language to lisp. 23:48:53 Makoryu, or, if they want to read printouts of code (such as in a book) they should switch programming languages ;) 23:51:20 though, literate programming, with python, allevietes the problem somewhat 23:51:46 I've yet to read or write a literate lisp though 23:52:21 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:52:26 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:11 Anyone taking it upon themselves to design a new lisp dialect should do it with literate programming in mind. 23:53:14 NO EXCEPTIONS 23:53:32 aye 23:53:39 what's your definition of literate programming? 23:53:42 docstrings? 23:53:53 slava, no, more like what knuth does 23:54:18 slava: they probably mean something more along the lines of taking a tex-formatted file with some code in it and compiling it into lisp source code. 23:54:27 somebody using rucksack? 23:54:41 which I think is utterly pointless, but whatever floats people's boat. 23:54:49 a good start would be something like javadoc  23:55:08 sykopomp, that's the gist of it, but literate programming has nothing, in and of itself, to do with either tex or lisp 23:55:09 -!- guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:55:11 javadoc is not literate programming 23:55:16 LOL 23:55:29 its a trip seeing all these languages 23:55:45 my friend just made me flip a coin to learn forth or lisp 23:55:47 sykopomp: its along the same lines 23:55:49 forth won tails 23:56:11 slava: you're oversimplifying 23:56:12 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:56:42 thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp