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00:10:21 <lnostdal> Xach, http://nostdal.org/lnostdal/always-here/sw/on-resize-vecto-proper-font-and-text.ogv .. finally .. no more CSS madness wrt. usage of text as _labels_ in widgets :)
00:10:49 <lnostdal> ..it's not 100% there yet, but it'll get there
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00:12:28 <lnostdal> red is html .. blue border and text is vecto (lisp) .. point is combining these two things and getting a pixel perfect fit
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00:18:04 <myrkraverk> (FLET ((! (MAKE-FACTORIAL) <--- that doesn't work too well, how do I force the evaluation?
00:18:53 <sykopomp> myrkraverk: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm
00:19:12 <sykopomp> it looks like you're trying to use flet wrong :P
00:19:58 <sykopomp> (flet ((! (n) "An abbreviated version of fac" (factorial n))) (! 5))
00:21:12 <myrkraverk> I think I shall make a past, bbiap
00:21:22 <sykopomp> if you're trying to define ! recursively, though, you'll need to use labels instead of flet.
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00:23:14 <lisppaste> myrkraverk pasted "Failure at making closure" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86633
00:24:20 <sykopomp> myrkraverk: use WHEN/UNLESS for single-result ifs
00:24:34 <sykopomp> err, single-branch (the other one being nil)
00:25:00 <myrkraverk> ah, but that doesn't make my falure go away ;)
00:25:06 <sykopomp> and no, that's not going to work because flet works like a function definition
00:25:30 <myrkraverk> what do I use instead?
00:25:39 <sykopomp> if you want to use (make-factorial), you'll need to do (funcall (make-factorial) 5)
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00:25:59 <myrkraverk> every time?
00:26:03 <sykopomp> (let ((! (make-factorial))) (funcall #'! 5))
00:26:14 <sykopomp> if you're going to treat it as a closure, yes, pretty much.
00:26:29 <sykopomp> if what you want is to be able to do (! 5), then you can still use flet
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00:26:53 <sykopomp> like... (flet ((! (n) (funcall (make-factorial) n))) (! 5))
00:27:33 <myrkraverk> ah, ok
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00:42:37 <_3b> you probably don't want to funcall (make-factorial) directly though, since you get a new closure every time
00:43:16 <pkhuong> You probably just want something like (defun foo (...) (let ((cache ...)) (labels ((! ...)) ...)))
00:44:08 <myrkraverk> yes, and yes
00:44:09 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
00:44:36 <myrkraverk> but, still toying with the closure, how do I use it?
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00:45:10 <_3b> (let ((foo (make-factorial))) (funcall foo ..))
00:45:56 <_3b> or if you really want to avoid funcall, (let ((foo (make-factorial))) (flet ((! (n) (funcall foo n)))) (! ...)))
00:46:34 <_3b> with some parens adde/removed/moved/etc
00:47:01 <bytecolor> (parse-example
00:47:01 <bytecolor>   "
00:47:01 <bytecolor>     const abc = 123,
00:47:02 <bytecolor>           pi=3.141592e+0;
00:47:06 <bytecolor>     var a,b,c;
00:47:09 <bytecolor>     procedure gcd;
00:47:12 <bytecolor>     begin
00:47:15 <bytecolor>         while a # b do
00:47:19 <bytecolor>         begin
00:47:21 <myrkraverk> bytecolor, erm?
00:47:22 <bytecolor>              if a<b then b:=b-a ;
00:47:25 <bytecolor>              if a>b then a:=a-b
00:47:26 <bytecolor>         end
00:47:28 <bytecolor>     end;
00:47:29 <pkhuong> Sometimes I wish I had ops.
00:47:30 <myrkraverk> what happened to paste.lisp.org?
00:47:32 <bytecolor> begin
00:47:35 <bytecolor>     a:=42;
00:47:38 <bytecolor>     b:=30.0;
00:47:42 <bytecolor>     call gcd
00:47:45 <bytecolor> end.")
00:47:45 <pkhuong> And then I remember /ignore.
00:47:45 <Adlai> minion: lisppaste for bytecolor
00:47:45 <lisppaste> To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste.
00:47:47 *_3b* wishes clients wouldn't default do slow pasting :p
00:47:51 <bytecolor> wow, sorry people
00:48:42 <Adlai> bytecolor: Everybody makes mistakes, just DON'T DO IT AGAIN (as the kindergarden teacher said)
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00:49:12 <stassats> well, you can easily do that by accidentally pasting
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00:49:24 <stassats> so, you cannot really control accidentallity
00:49:39 <Adlai> true, that's why you need an IRC client that stops you from accidentally pasting.
00:49:40 <_3b> sure you can, just keep input focus in a nother window :)
00:49:54 <bytecolor> I was mouse scrolling with the middle button and pushed it (paste)
00:49:54 <_3b> (or turn off flood protection so you get kicked by the server automatically)
00:50:08 <bytecolor> another reason the unplug my mouse forever ;)
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00:50:47 <Adlai> hmm I still need to disable my touchpad... although I don't think there's a way to click "button 2" from the touchpad itself.
00:50:57 <bytecolor> I wouldnt have minded a kick for that
00:51:01 *stassats* once copied ERC buffer, and it looked exactly like the original
00:51:02 <Adlai> (my mouse sometimes makes strange motions when I rest my hands...)
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00:56:01 <mcfoobar> how are you lispers?
00:56:37 <Adlai> mcfoobar: good. How are you?
00:56:48 <mcfoobar> mixed feelings
00:57:04 <mcfoobar> a bit drunk, a bit happy, a bit depressed
00:57:16 <mcfoobar> how was your day Adlai
00:57:22 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit []
00:59:23 <Adlai> mcfoobar: it passed :)
01:00:15 <mcfoobar> Adlai: well, doesn't sound too great
01:00:48 <Adlai> it was ok. thanks for asking :)
01:01:02 <bytecolor> I'm doing something that seems logical to me: I found some source that uses the clisp specific package REGEXP. So instead of rewriting each call to regexp, I shadowed the calls with wrapped calls to cl-ppcre. Is that umm normal?
01:01:34 <bytecolor> I'm using sbcl, not clisp
01:02:06 <bytecolor> It's only a havl dozen or so calls to regexp.
01:02:18 <mcfoobar> Adlai: just cause I'm bored and drunking, are you a professional sw-developer?
01:02:53 <stassats> #lisp isn't a good place for "bored and drunk" discussions
01:02:58 <Adlai> mcfoobar: I would say "define professional", but that's a bit of a harsh thing to lay upon a drunk person...
01:03:21 <mcfoobar> well I'm not that drunk
01:03:25 <mcfoobar> only a bit
01:03:32 <mcfoobar> and how comes that you know that?
01:03:50 <myrkraverk> caching fact, moved it from line 1, to line 11; and shortened the sampling time from 1.43 sec to 1.01 sec; for permutations of length 9
01:03:51 <mcfoobar> With professionaly I mean:  do you do it for a living
01:04:04 <myrkraverk> it seems to break the profiler to try 10
01:04:17 <_3b> bytecolor: using cl-ppcre to implement a REGEXP compativility layer sounds reasonable to me
01:04:36 <myrkraverk> *yay to profiling*
01:04:43 <stassats> mcfoobar: i advise you to stick to the topic
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01:07:24 <mcfoobar> stassats: sorry, I do not want to disturb this channel. But there is not going on much now, so I thought people would not mind a litte off-topic chatting. Though If it really bothers you I'll stop it immediately.
01:07:44 <_3b> mcfoobar: many of us would prefer silence to off-topic
01:07:46 <sykopomp> mcfoobar: you can stop then :)
01:08:16 <myrkraverk> since 13! < 2^32-1, can I optimize for 32bit integers in that case?
01:08:30 <bytecolor> _3b: My reasoning being if there is a problem, it is more than likely with my code as I haven't touched the original code.
01:08:47 <stassats> myrkraverk: you can
01:09:06 <mcfoobar> _3b: sykopomp  alright, thanks for being that  nice, and sorry for me being drunk and joining this channel, I hope I didn't annoy anyone too much, have a nice day :)
01:09:31 <myrkraverk> what do I want to read, about such optimizations?
01:10:09 <_3b> myrkraverk: if you need to optimize for factorials less than 13, it sounds like something is wrong
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01:10:50 <stassats> is chapter on optimization in PAIP suitable? i haven't read it
01:10:55 <bytecolor> memoize them instead?
01:11:04 <myrkraverk> _3b, no, nothing is wrong, I'm just trying to squeeze performance
01:11:12 <_3b> (defun f (n) (if (< n 20) (aref #(1 1 2 6 24 120 720 5040 ...)) (expensive-factorial n)))
01:11:12 <stassats> in general, there is no one reading, you need experience
01:11:27 <_3b> myrkraverk: i mean something is wrong if there is performance there to squeeze
01:11:32 <myrkraverk> _3b, I've already cached fact, it's not fact I'm optimizing
01:11:40 <dacrawford> just tried building commonqt on a fresh clbuild install with a clbuild-built sbcl
01:12:05 <myrkraverk> . o O (why do I have to go through what I'm doing everytime someone new comes along?)
01:12:07 <dacrawford> and I'm getting '#\# is not a dispatch char.'  in reader
01:12:21 <_3b> myrkraverk: ah, in that case, declare types, optionally set up the calculations so they cannot overflow 2^32-1
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01:12:27 <stassats> myrkraverk: perhaps because you are doing something too wrong?
01:12:42 <myrkraverk> stassats, if making permutations is wrong, then yes
01:13:01 <stassats> maybe your way is wrong?
01:13:10 <myrkraverk> why?
01:13:18 <myrkraverk> what makes one way more wrong than another?
01:14:03 <_3b> myrkraverk: being too slow sounds 'more wrong' :)
01:14:05 <stassats> if it unjistifyingly takes more resources to implement or execute
01:14:10 <dacrawford> minion: logs
01:14:10 <minion> logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000)
01:14:23 <myrkraverk> _3b, it's not too slow; actually quite faster than I dared to expect
01:14:55 *_3b* is confused then, if it isn't too slow, why not work on features instead of optimization?
01:15:17 <myrkraverk> because I want to learn to optimize lisp
01:15:22 <myrkraverk> and I don't need features
01:15:33 <myrkraverk> I can already make all the permutations I want
01:16:36 <_3b> in that case, paste some specific code, and we can give hints...
01:16:47 <myrkraverk> do I have anything else than macros, to make "generic code" like I do with C++ templates?
01:16:53 <myrkraverk> _3b, ok
01:16:57 <stassats> functions
01:17:18 <_3b> on the subject of optimizing for 32 bit math, see http://www.sbcl.info/manual/Modular-arithmetic.html
01:17:26 <pkhuong> You'll spend nearly all your time in bignum functions.
01:18:41 <kpreid> I think it's a flaw in ERC that pasting immediately sends lines. It's clearly possible to fix; slime-repl distinguishes multiline input
01:19:10 <lisppaste> myrkraverk pasted "Making permutations" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86637
01:20:08 <dacrawford> actually that commonqt error isn't in compiling reader.lisp, but in the loading of reader.fasl right after
01:20:17 <myrkraverk> pkhuong, that depends on the size of the n, I"m making permutations for
01:21:04 <pkhuong> if n > 12 or 20.
01:21:56 <pkhuong> myrkraverk: please convert tabs to spaces first. (M-x untabify on the relevant regions)
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01:22:40 <_3b> myrkraverk: which part the code is 'exactly this algorithm' referring to?
01:23:09 <stassats> optimizing lisp includes selecting a better algorithm
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01:23:36 <myrkraverk> _3b, the meat is in the label (next) in (permute)
01:23:40 <pkhuong> myrkraverk: why are you caching calls to fact if it's only called once?
01:23:44 <myrkraverk> stassats, that's not my assignment, in this case
01:23:52 <myrkraverk> pkhuong, it isn't
01:23:54 <_3b> myrkraverk: like do you need to store the symbols in a list, and rearrange it with list ops, etc?
01:24:00 <stassats> so, this is your homework?
01:24:08 <myrkraverk> no
01:24:19 <pixel5> I had an inflammation in my jaw and wasn't treated because I didnt have 10 euros with me.
01:24:34 <pixel5> oops. wrong channel.
01:24:45 <myrkraverk> basically, to start on this project, I'm to start by implementing this algo
01:24:57 <myrkraverk> I chose lisp to do it
01:25:08 <myrkraverk> _3b, yes
01:25:51 <pkhuong> Sure it is. You know exactly the range on which you'll compute the factorial. There's no reason to introduce a check there. Just fill a lexically bound (dynamic-extent even) vector with the values iteratively.
01:26:12 <dacrawford> ah, I think I know what changed with readtable stuff and commonqt.   Has the api on named-readtables changed since commonqt? ...
01:26:34 <_3b> myrkraverk: including calling append all over the place?
01:26:53 <myrkraverk> _3b, that is one thing I'm not sure how to optimise
01:27:10 <_3b> didn't someone tell you about push + nreverse yesterday?
01:27:21 <pkhuong> or use a vector.
01:27:21 <dacrawford> if a two-char :dispatch-macro-char uses a primary that isn't already valid, it needs to be defined as a macro-char with :macro-char  in the defreadtable .. and commonqt doesn't do that
01:27:34 <myrkraverk> _3b, yes, but "not sure" doesn't mean I don't know it can be done
01:27:53 <myrkraverk> _3b, plus, by profiling, it was my fact that was the bottleneck, not append
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01:28:15 *_3b* thought you were done fixing fact?
01:28:17 <myrkraverk> pkhuong, that's what I'm considering now
01:28:20 <pkhuong> myrkraverk: first (declare (optimize speed)). Otherwise, you're just analysing noise.
01:28:23 <myrkraverk> _3b, yes, I am
01:28:35 <myrkraverk> pkhuong, ok
01:28:43 <_3b> yeah, actually telling the compiler to optimize the code would be a good start :)
01:29:00 <OmniMancer> speed 3 :D
01:29:13 <myrkraverk> where do I put that?
01:29:13 <_3b> speed = (speed 3)
01:29:33 <pkhuong> Then, once you're done with the obvious things, you'll likely want to define two variants of the next function, one for n-1! a fixnum (or (unsigned-byte 32/64)), and another for the general case.
01:29:41 <_3b> myrkraverk: first form of the function you want to optimize, or in declaim to set it globally
01:30:10 <myrkraverk> declaim?
01:30:10 <_3b> (defun foo name (args) (declare (optimize speed)) ...)
01:30:12 <pkhuong> You know that the values for n-1 are monotone decreasing, so it makes sense to hoist that check outside the loop.
01:30:27 <pkhuong> *n-1!
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01:32:50 <myrkraverk> pkhuong, ah
01:33:32 <myrkraverk> are there 64 bit versions of sbcl?
01:33:40 <stassats`> yes
01:33:57 <myrkraverk> is there one for solaris x86? ;-D
01:34:06 <_3b> x86 is 32 bit :p
01:34:13 <myrkraverk> ;)
01:34:18 <myrkraverk> amd64 if you insist then
01:35:02 <_3b> not listed on http://sbcl.sourceforge.net/platform-table.html
01:35:41 <OmniMancer> it matters whether the OS is 32 bits or 64 bits not the CPU
01:36:29 <_3b> OmniMancer: only for 64bit CPUs :p
01:37:04 <myrkraverk> % isainfo -k
01:37:04 <myrkraverk> amd64
01:37:08 <OmniMancer> well yes because 64 bit OSs have a strange aversion to running on 32 bit CPUs
01:37:27 <myrkraverk> OmniMancer, yes, total fascists
01:39:33 <p_l> hmm... isainfo... Solaris?
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01:39:42 <_3b> though it looks like there was one posted to the sbcl list recently
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01:40:25 <myrkraverk> p_l, yes
01:40:42 <myrkraverk> -k is what the kernel is running
01:40:45 <_3b> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.steel-bank.devel/13792
01:41:29 *p_l* ponders if he could install CDE from Solaris 10 on Solaris 11
01:41:56 <p_l> gnome was rather annoying
01:42:27 *_3b* needs to look for a new WM one of these days, sawfish keeps crashing :(
01:42:28 <myrkraverk> yes, gnome is annoying
01:42:41 <Irishmanluke> noone likes gnome?
01:42:48 <myrkraverk> I'm always meaning to install fvwm
01:42:52 *p_l* would rather go with CDE than GNOME
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01:43:06 *_3b* will probably try eclipse, just to stay on topic
01:43:15 <myrkraverk> Irishmanluke, an interface that's dumbed down to "protect the user" is annoying
01:43:38 <p_l> myrkraverk: I've been using fvwm2 for quite a long time, it's a wonderful WM (I only switched to XMonad circa two years ago)
01:43:42 <sykopomp> sure is offtopic in here
01:44:02 <myrkraverk> sykopomp, nono, we'll come to window managers written in lisp in no time
01:44:14 <sykopomp> stumpwm pisses me off
01:44:17 <myrkraverk> there's even one written in elisp; don't recall the name though
01:44:23 <OmniMancer> :O
01:44:28 <OmniMancer> how did they do that?
01:44:36 <dacrawford> it's called emacs :P
01:44:46 <myrkraverk> xlib interface, or ffi, don't know the details
01:45:26 <_3b> sykopomp: so use eclipse then :)
01:45:57 <myrkraverk> I do have an incomplete bindings for OpenGL for zsh lying around -- I should complete that, one day
01:46:18 <sykopomp> _3b: I don't like floaters.
01:46:34 <p_l> myrkraverk: o_O
01:46:49 *dacrawford* been writing too much in zsh recently
01:46:57 <myrkraverk> p_l, I implemented enough to make a proof of concept opengl script
01:47:15 <myrkraverk> (and why do I keep calling you pl1 in my head?)
01:47:29 <myrkraverk> with glut and everything ;-P
01:47:59 <p_l> .. great, I became PL/I =3=
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01:52:12 <OmniMancer> so emacs can be used as a WM?
01:52:54 <myrkraverk> afaiu, yes
01:53:12 <OmniMancer> does it make everything look emacsy?
01:53:20 <myrkraverk> I don't know; never used it
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01:54:56 <myrkraverk> on another subject, do I have CL interfaces to the big sql databases? oracle, db2, ...
01:55:44 <_3b> as far as i know, only xemacs has a wm, none for gnu emacs :(
01:55:57 <OmniMancer> :(:(:(:(:(:(
01:56:36 <OmniMancer> Is there a library for writing state machines in lisp?
01:56:59 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit []
01:57:18 <p_l> afaik no, but you could write one with tagbody :D
01:57:37 <OmniMancer> but we need a macro for that :P
01:57:53 <p_l> so?
01:58:03 <myrkraverk> google gives me something I think is a CL interface to oracle -- is there none for db2, mysql, sqlite, postgres, ...?
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01:58:25 *OmniMancer* is not knowledgeable enough.
01:58:39 <OmniMancer> there is for general SQL
01:59:12 <myrkraverk> yes, found that -- for odbc at least
01:59:24 <_3b> minion: clsql
01:59:25 <minion> clsql: CLSQL is a Database interface Library for Common Lisp that can access a number of different SQL database engines. http://www.cliki.net/clsql
01:59:31 <_3b> minion: postmodern
01:59:31 <minion> postmodern: Postmodern is a library for interacting with PostgreSQL databases through SQL. http://www.cliki.net/postmodern
01:59:33 <OmniMancer> there is one that will do the sql ones including sqlite, that be it
02:00:03 <_3b> or more generally:
02:00:07 <_3b> minion: database
02:00:07 <minion> database: Database-related software; RDBMS glue, OO databases, etc. http://www.cliki.net/database
02:01:15 <OmniMancer> how are C++ libs usually bound for lisp?
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02:01:48 <p_l> OmniMancer: painfully
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02:02:00 <OmniMancer> you have to write C linkage wrappers?
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02:03:35 <pkhuong> OmniMancer: pretty much.
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02:08:32 <myrkraverk> is there a "the best way" when I need to pop a random element from a list?
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02:09:08 <_3b> 'not needing to do that' would probably be the best option :)
02:09:08 <stassats`> random and list doesn't combine well
02:09:18 <myrkraverk> ;-D
02:09:53 <DeusExPikachu> stassats`, why's that?
02:09:54 <_3b> popping first and assigning to random location in an array for example might be an alternative
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02:10:17 <_3b> DeusExPikachu: you need to traverse a random amount of the array to get a random element
02:10:23 <myrkraverk> no, I need to clear a random element *from* the list
02:10:40 <myrkraverk> or, the nth element
02:10:44 <DeusExPikachu> array or list? I thought we were talking about lists
02:11:00 <myrkraverk> both work equally bad, is all I can see
02:11:04 <_3b> DeusExPikachu: sorry, list
02:11:18 <DeusExPikachu> k, cause arrays should be indexable by a random number
02:11:20 <myrkraverk> I need the nth element, and afterwords, I need that element not to be in the list anymore
02:11:30 <_3b> myrkraverk: this is part of the 'must be done a specific slow way' thing?
02:11:39 <stassats`> in array, you can mark an element with 0 or some other value, instead of removing it
02:11:52 <DeusExPikachu> this is a classic which data structure do you want problem right?
02:12:06 <myrkraverk> _3b, looks like it; but since the lists are generally of length < 20; optimising it is only of academic interests ;)
02:12:31 <DeusExPikachu> then just do an array or list and be done :)
02:12:34 <dacrawford> double-linked would be my preferred if it was easily available
02:12:37 <myrkraverk> stassats`, then I need to traverse the array anyway, to find the new "nth" element, since the index has changed
02:13:19 <dacrawford> but since traverse is necessary in a linked setup , you already have the previous, relink it to the next.  modulo destructive/copying
02:14:18 <DeusExPikachu> how's double better than single when you only need to traverse one way?
02:14:27 <myrkraverk> I'm now using the delete-nth macro in http://paste.lisp.org/display/86637
02:14:34 <dacrawford> the next line was a nvm for double
02:14:49 <DeusExPikachu> oh
02:14:56 <myrkraverk> which probably should be named pop-nth
02:15:05 <stassats`> myrkraverk: if list is of length 20, and your function is called few times, why are you worrying about the speed at all?
02:15:07 <dacrawford> minion: replacd
02:15:07 <minion> Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``replacd''.
02:15:12 <dacrawford> minion: rplacd
02:15:13 <minion> Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``rplacd''.
02:15:23 <stassats`> clhs rplacd
02:15:24 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rplaca.htm
02:15:28 <dacrawford> yeah that
02:15:39 <myrkraverk> stassats`, because the outer function is generally called n! times
02:16:17 <stassats`> n grows pretty quickly, so you can stop worrying too
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02:16:32 *_3b* still thinks optimizing bad algorithms is silly :p
02:16:53 <leo2007> In elisp, how to test if a swank server is available on port 4005?
02:17:04 <myrkraverk> _3b, do you have a better algorithm?
02:18:31 <stassats`> leo2007: well, connect to it?
02:18:35 <myrkraverk> and also, given a better algorithm for doing all n! permutations, is it better for the special case of giving the kth one?
02:18:45 <beach> Good morning everyone.
02:19:13 <myrkraverk> beach, g'morning
02:19:37 <stassats`> myrkraverk: i'd look at the vector of length n as a number in base n, then doing k-th permutations is just converting k-th from base 10 to base n
02:20:34 <pkhuong> myrkraverk: if it's called n! time, use another algorithm.
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02:21:24 <beach> myrkraverk: With an array, you exchange the chosen element with the last element and shorten the array by one element, so it is constant time.  No traversal.
02:21:53 <myrkraverk> beach, I can't rearrange the elements
02:22:06 <beach> why is that?
02:22:28 <myrkraverk> beach, I need them in order, after popping-nth
02:22:48 <beach> so they are sorted?
02:22:48 <OmniMancer> um
02:22:57 <myrkraverk> yes
02:23:13 <DeusExPikachu> are they sorted or just order is important?
02:24:24 <myrkraverk> more like the order has to stay the same
02:24:49 <_3b> do you actually just mean you need to get the same results as your current code for the same input?
02:24:55 <myrkraverk> stassats`, how does that work for n=3 k=0 (or k=1 if you prefer it that way)
02:25:10 <beach> I assume this is just theoretical, but you could use a doubly-linked list to maintain the order, and store the links in a vector and use the delete-and-exchange-with-last as I suggested.
02:25:12 <_3b> since that would be a reasonable requirement we could work around
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02:26:58 <myrkraverk> beach, I'll have to draw that up ;-)
02:28:09 <Adlai> clhs ensure-function
02:28:09 <specbot> Sorry, I couldn't find anything for ensure-function.
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02:28:47 <myrkraverk> Adlai, you'll have to buy your function an insurance first
02:29:01 <Adlai> myrkraverk: :P
02:29:15 <sykopomp> Adlai: it's an alexandria thing.
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02:35:29 <myrkraverk> _3b, what I'm actually doing, is I start with a list (1 2 3 4), calculate the number I want first in my permutation, which is 3 for n=4 k=14, then my list is (1 2 4), and I calculate I need 2nd element, (1st for 0 based) and have (1 4) left, and so on; to give me (3 2 1 4) as the permutation
02:36:23 <myrkraverk> here (1 2 3 4) can be any list of 4 distinct elements
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02:37:12 <_3b> myrkraverk: right, the question is why you need to do that
02:37:21 <myrkraverk> _3b, I was asked to
02:37:34 <myrkraverk> _3b, and, what else do you think is better?
02:37:36 <_3b> were you asked to optimize it too? :)
02:37:51 <myrkraverk> no, but if I continue to use lisp, I'll need to know how
02:37:56 <leo2007> can someone help explain what (apply #'mapcar #'list m) does?
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02:38:19 <_3b> right, but the first step in optimizing should always be to improve the algorithms
02:38:57 <beach> leo2007: That's an idiom.  It transposes a matrix represented as a list of lists.
02:39:05 <myrkraverk> of course, though, even if I find a better algorithm for all n! permutations, it's not given that it's better for the special case of the kth one
02:39:35 <beach> myrkraverk: But why do you need to preserve the order after each random element?
02:39:37 <myrkraverk> so, as in the extreme-programming style: if there's more than ony way to do it, implement all and test
02:39:38 <_3b> myrkraverk: well, actually, i guess the /first/ step should be defining the requirements :)
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02:40:22 <DeusExPikachu> I don't understand past "then my list is (1 2 4)"
02:40:40 <myrkraverk> beach, because otherwise I'd get a random permutation, not the kth one
02:40:53 <leo2007> beach: but it is not the same as (mapcar #'list m)
02:41:03 <_3b> who defines 'the kth permutation'
02:41:03 <beach> leo2007: m is a list of lists, say (l1 l2 .. ln),  it is as if you did (mapcar #'list l1 l2 .. ln), so it generates a list of all the first elements, then all the second elements, etc.
02:41:15 <myrkraverk> DeusExPikachu, I start with a list of elements (1 2 3 4) and calculate what I need to take from it, for my first element, 3 in my example
02:41:23 <myrkraverk> next is 2, then 1, then 4
02:41:42 <myrkraverk> _3b, lexicographical order
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02:41:55 <myrkraverk> (1 2 3 4) < (1 2 4 3)
02:42:05 <_3b> ok, so is the requirement 'kth permutation in lexicographical order' or 'implement what you have so far'?
02:42:07 <DeusExPikachu> if the list is long, can you delay operations, that'll optimize it a bit
02:42:29 <myrkraverk> _3b, kth in lexicographical order
02:42:41 <_3b> ok, now we have progress :)
02:42:41 <leo2007> beach: thank you for the explanation
02:42:49 <beach> leo2007: No problem.
02:42:56 <myrkraverk> _3b, that is also what sage gives you, when you ask it for Permutations(4)[14]
02:42:57 <_3b> we can change anything in your code, as long as it produces the same results for the same input, right?
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02:44:13 <myrkraverk> _3b, yes, I was asked to use this algoritm, which I've done; so I'll be happy to see a more efficient noe
02:46:36 <myrkraverk> _3b, for my convenience, I used letters for n>9, and I don't really expect to use this on anything with n>26
02:48:06 <myrkraverk> and, actually, for a better algo, the first thing I'd do, is to read knuth
02:48:12 <myrkraverk> only I don't have that book here
02:48:22 *_3b* was considering reaching for that :p
02:49:07 <myrkraverk> ;-D
02:49:45 <myrkraverk> come to mention it, I'd like to know what I do have here ;)
02:49:58 <dacrawford> has anyone here looked at named-readtables recently?
02:50:38 <DeusExPikachu> myrkraverk, when you pull the next item, is the calculation for the index effectively completely random?
02:50:53 <myrkraverk> hah, I *do* have v4 fasc2 : generating all tuples and permutations ;)
02:51:09 <myrkraverk> DeusExPikachu, no
02:51:52 <DeusExPikachu> because the indexes get jacked up when you squeeze
02:52:12 <myrkraverk> no, not the indexes, the symbols
02:52:27 <myrkraverk> I want the kth item in each case
02:52:50 <myrkraverk> _3b, no need for you to reach; I have mine ;)
02:53:15 <_3b> yeah, i don't have the fasc, so it wouldn't do me any good anyway
02:53:39 <myrkraverk> haha ;)
02:53:48 <mcfoobar> does anyone in here love whiskey
02:54:17 <felideon> the liquor
02:54:18 <felideon> ?
02:54:31 <sykopomp> mcfoobar: again, please take offtopic elsewhere
02:54:41 <mcfoobar> sykopomp: sorry
02:54:45 <felideon> sykopomp: was making sureit wasn't a CL library ;)
02:55:05 <mcfoobar> felideon: but you were right
02:55:11 <sykopomp> felideon: quite alright :)
02:55:19 <mcfoobar> there sould beh something like #lisp-offtopic
02:55:33 <sykopomp> mcfoobar: go make ##lisp-offtopic, then.
02:55:43 <DeusExPikachu> problem is nobody in lisp would be there
02:55:55 <myrkraverk> theorem: let w be a word in a dictionary, then w is also a name of a CL library.  Proof: ...
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02:56:20 <mcfoobar> sykopomp: well, I dont need to be in a channel so that I can talk to myself xD
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02:57:08 <pkhuong> mcfoobar: please spam #haskell-blah instead.
02:58:00 <myrkraverk> nonono, let him spam #fortran; they're all afk anyway
02:58:21 <DeusExPikachu> too busy coding boilerplate?
02:58:42 <DeusExPikachu> oooo burn.....
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03:00:32 <mcfoobar> haha, you guys really should chill out, there isn't anythin important going on in the channe, anyways I dont want to disturb you guys, thanks for being kind, have a nice day all together
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03:01:36 <myrkraverk> well, have book, will sleep -- good night guys, and thanks for all the comments and help
03:01:42 <p_l> ... we should make a ton of libraries with weird names like "whisky", "scotch", "LSD"... and then put them into CLtL3 so that they get "official" ;P
03:01:53 <p_l> myrkraverk: night
03:02:07 <Adlai> p_l: we need a git interface called clit, to go along with climacs.
03:02:31 <DeusExPikachu> lol
03:02:47 <sykopomp> sounds edgy, maybe we can market it to ruby people
03:03:07 *p_l* recalls a guy with a nick "RORgasm"
03:03:40 <sykopomp> Not to step too far into ot territory myself, but I wonder if _why ever reappeared.
03:04:11 <p_l> the one responsible for chunky bacon obsessed foxes?
03:04:45 <sykopomp> yeah
03:04:51 *stassats`* doesn't get all this attention to _why disappearance
03:05:16 <p_l> dunno, I thought I had seen him sometimes, but I don't really care
03:05:45 <sykopomp> it's just strange, is all.
03:05:53 <p_l> Mongrel's author made me rather disillusioned with RoR part of the Ruby community
03:05:55 <fusss> fwiw, the _why dude is cool, but fuck me dead, i can't take the rubyists' drama
03:06:38 <p_l> fusss: afaik there were some S-grade assholes related to RoR some time ago. Drama Ensued
03:06:59 <Adamant> p_l: I don't know anything about the RoR community, but Zed Shaw isn't the person I would take advice on "who is an asshole" from
03:07:10 <Adamant> unless he was willing to finger himself as one :P
03:07:14 <p_l> certain opinions of DHH & 37signals make me go ZOMGLOLWTFBBQ
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03:08:32 <p_l> Adamant: Oh, I did recognize his style, sure. But he did present some sensible arguments, and even without them I get the feeling that Lispers are no longer the main "smug weenies" around :P
03:08:53 <Adamant> Python and Ruby are full of smug weenies
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03:09:10 <Adamant> Linus seems determined to become a smug weenie anytime security is mentioned
03:09:20 <fusss> STFU about drama queens and get working on giving me a cl-typesetting daemon that converts (x)html to PDF and delivers everything to my public lighttpd data directory, you magots!
03:09:27 <p_l> haha
03:09:34 <Adlai> "If you didn't deal with the circle of trust, what you were doing wasn't security, it was... uh... masturbation."
03:09:38 <Adamant> fusss: you forgot to ask for 20 pushups as part of the bargain
03:09:39 <Adlai> - Linus @ Google
03:10:00 <DeusExPikachu> Linus is hilarious
03:10:06 <sykopomp> funny that he called the obsd people masturbating monkeys
03:10:12 <sykopomp> (wrt being smug about security)
03:10:25 *p_l* doesn't run vanilla kernel anymore, especially wrt security, so..
03:10:43 <pkhuong> Adamant: Given the track record Linus has on topics I'm interested in, I tend to trust his opinions, however opinionated they may be expressed.
03:11:03 <Adlai> I think he just has fun saying stuff that way, because he knows he can get away with it
03:11:25 <Adamant> pkhuong: I don't
03:12:07 <DeusExPikachu> "Backups are for wimps. Real men upload their data to an FTP site and
03:12:07 <DeusExPikachu> have everyone else mirror it." -Linus Torvalds
03:12:40 <sykopomp> showing up at google and telling them their shit sucks is pretty amusing
03:12:41 <stassats`> this isn't ##old-linus-quotes
03:12:55 <DeusExPikachu> no but it provides some concrete details
03:13:12 <Adlai> stassats`: sorry, I forgot it was ##bored-and-drunk
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03:16:41 <DeusExPikachu> he just has his opinionated knob cranked way up, it makes for interesting conversation wrong or right, it exposes issues really fast
03:20:42 *fusss* is very happy decoupling a monolithic web app into a bunch of web services, each running on a separate ht-process
03:21:26 <fusss> at least I can drop in a perl PDF printer in 1 hour without having to mess with run-program :-)
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03:22:02 <fusss> the phptards get to use my stuff as i go too, without me having to write a friken php class for them
03:23:27 <felideon> how do they interface with you?
03:23:40 <felideon> they get back XML from your services?
03:23:48 <fusss> yep
03:24:19 <felideon> because I'm sure they think XML is the best thing since sliced bread
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03:24:52 <fusss> really, not my problem
03:25:16 <fusss> at least nobody is sitting around for 24 hours before they can use whatever i write that day
03:25:54 <felideon> what do you mean
03:26:23 <sykopomp> I'm convinced XML is someone's idea of a sick joke.
03:26:37 <fusss> well, my name was on the line. i wrote a good chunk of the app in lisp, and when the phpers came on board they wanted to use whatever code i wrote.
03:27:03 <fusss> i spent weeks implementing my project for a few hour a day, then spending the rest of the day figuring out ways they could use it from php
03:27:16 <felideon> oh, gotcha.
03:27:36 <fusss> they were accessing my database directly; they wanted a complete data model, table names, passwords, etc.
03:27:59 <fusss> then i spent a week being their personal bitch sysadmin; installing packages for them and configuring apache to their tastes.
03:28:52 <p_l> fusss: I sense that you didn't LART them soon enough :D
03:29:45 <fusss> politics suck; i am in individual programmer and they're a team at an outsourcing company, who do you think looks less professional if they "can't do anything"?
03:31:01 <felideon> true
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03:37:22 *p_l* would love for someone to replace his last three months with a sysadmin job
03:37:39 *sykopomp* would love to have a job.
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03:38:56 <emma> <sykopomp> I'm convinced XML is someone's idea of a sick joke.  <----- I hear this from different people all the time, could you say what it is you dislike about it so much?
03:39:20 <Adlai> emma: I'll let you figure it out, with a little example.
03:39:23 <sykopomp> emma: it does what s-exps do, but it sucks at it in comparison.
03:39:28 *Adlai* concocts example.
03:39:44 <sykopomp> Adlai: just link her that paper about that joke lisp.
03:39:52 <p_l> emma: XML is what happens when you take a good system (SGML) and start promoting misusing it horribly
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03:40:01 <Adlai> sykopomp: I actually don't like how phosphorus handles xml...
03:40:03 <stassats`> you can only realize it when you are dealing with it on your own, examples wouldn't help
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03:40:44 <p_l> emma: and XML by itself isn't as bad as, what appears to be common, directly dumping datastructures into XML
03:40:51 <lisppaste> Adlai pasted "Nice lispy example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86642
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03:42:47 <lisppaste> Adlai annotated #86642 "Now in XML" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86642#1
03:44:58 <stassats`> this example is like  "why microscope is bad for hammering nails"
03:45:06 <Adlai> emma: saying that XML is verbose and ugly would be an injustice to how I feel about XML
03:45:11 <pixel5> xml.... *rattle of revolver drum/bang!*
03:45:48 <Adamant> pixel5: when you hear the words "XML", you reach for your revolver?
03:46:15 <Adlai> stassats`: from what I've read, it seems as though many code analysis tools communicate the AST and metasyntactic information using similar XML
03:46:16 <pixel5> Adamant: sometimes I'd love to for quick pain relief.
03:46:31 <Adamant> pixel5: you and Goering :P
03:46:50 <Adamant> Adlai: you're right, sadly
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03:47:34 <lisppaste> p_l annotated #86642 "I think XML will look more like this..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86642#2
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03:48:13 <pixel5> Adamant: you're so far off.
03:48:18 <pixel5> Adamant: he had morphine.
03:48:28 <Adamant> pixel5: he did make that quote IIRC :P
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03:48:43 <emma> I want to be able to publish mathematics easily on the Internet. The way it SHOULD work is that you just type <math> (type your LaTeX here) </math> and it shows up in the browser. But what w3c has done instead is make MATHML which is a subset of XML and it's neither human readable nor writable. :(
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03:49:25 <p_l> emma: and it exists afaik in two versions, + there's another standard for sharing equations in "semantic" way
03:50:28 <emma> yes you are right. It's really annoying. It's so convoluted and byzantine. And it's an absolute shame. Of all things, the Internet should be friendly to expressing mathematics and technical information. Why does the worlds greatest vector for information fail so badly at publishing mathematics directly.
03:51:10 <emma> I was so disappointed with mathml (subset of XML) when it ought to be clean and easy: <math> LaTeX </math>
03:51:15 <sykopomp> probably because no one can ever agree with anything.
03:51:19 <sykopomp> actually, let's scratch that
03:51:24 <sykopomp> because microsoft can never agree with anyone else*
03:51:57 <p_l> sykopomp: nah, even MS isn't as bad as XML infestation :P
03:52:03 <Adlai> microsoft at least gave us the X in AJAX, so that we can have interactive web content
03:52:16 *Adlai* just kids... but not really.
03:52:21 <p_l> though they should get a kick where sun doesn't shine for SOAP
03:52:32 <sykopomp> the web sucks
03:52:37 <sykopomp> I'll stick to desktop applications
03:52:38 <p_l> hear hear
03:52:50 <sykopomp> y'all can pretend we're living in the time of the time-sharing system again.
03:53:15 <sykopomp> -I- would rather live in a time where people actually own their own computers, as opposed to giving their souls away to google :)
03:53:21 <Adlai> sykopomp: haven't you heard? it's web 2.0 time. soon your desktop will be running google chrome OS and your files will be surfing on a wave into the googleplex.
03:53:27 *pixel5* grabs some popcorn.
03:53:31 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student165-245.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp
03:53:35 <sykopomp> yeah, screw that
03:53:40 <sykopomp> ianmcorvidae: hey! o/
03:54:01 <p_l> sykopomp: IMHO "Web 2.0" doesn't feel even similar to timesharing
03:54:07 <ianmcorvidae> hello! I am back at hampshire and my main computer is set up again so I'm back to freenode
03:54:12 <p_l> I'd rather go with timesharing, users were less bitchy
03:54:58 <sykopomp> p_l: I'd rather own my own computer.
03:55:04 <Adlai> if I understand correctly, back in the days of timesharing, users weren't "third grade punk[s] with a PC", to quote the (not so) great author Dan Brown
03:55:06 <sykopomp> or rather, computers.
03:55:42 <sykopomp> ianmcorvidae: awesome. Has the campus imploded yet?
03:55:56 <ianmcorvidae> not yet; most of the students arrive Monday
03:56:02 <ianmcorvidae> I got to show up early (last Monday)
03:56:06 <sykopomp> you're doing orientation?
03:56:11 <sykopomp> or IT?
03:56:30 <ianmcorvidae> I'm working at a five college office which emailed the housing office to get me permission, lol
03:56:44 <sykopomp> that works, too, I guess.
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03:56:58 <ianmcorvidae> five college center for the study of world languages; I'm getting some preliminary stuff done there because it would be crazy to start after classes with some of what I'm doing
03:57:05 <ianmcorvidae> (essentially, creating course materials)
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03:57:31 <sykopomp> is there a 5-college degree in languages, now?
03:57:50 <sykopomp> anyways, you'll have to find a new ride to the lisp meetings, seeing as I'm in the midwest now :P
03:58:01 <ianmcorvidae> oh, really
03:58:05 <sykopomp> yeah
03:58:09 <ianmcorvidae> oh well XD
03:58:11 <ianmcorvidae> what has you there?
03:58:28 <ianmcorvidae> but to answer your question it's a center that's been around a while
03:58:29 <sykopomp> a place to live that doesn't cost any rent, so I'm not homeless in my joblessness.
03:58:44 <ianmcorvidae> they're the people that put the flyers with lists of languages pages long out every semester telling people to come do them independently with them
03:58:48 <ianmcorvidae> ah
03:58:53 <ianmcorvidae> good reason, I suppose
03:59:07 <sykopomp> ianmcorvidae: the fiancée being here helps a bit, too, I guess.
03:59:08 <sykopomp> :P
03:59:10 <ianmcorvidae> basically it's the center that does all the obscure languages
03:59:16 <ianmcorvidae> that does also constitute a good reason :P
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03:59:26 <sykopomp> it's hilarious, too
03:59:39 <sykopomp> the twin cities lisp meeting started the week after I moved here.
04:00:18 <sykopomp> I only went to the first one, but my impression is that it's quite nice compared to the boston one :D
04:01:49 <ianmcorvidae> heh
04:01:58 <ianmcorvidae> well, that makes a certain degree of sense
04:02:14 <ianmcorvidae> you didn't like the boston one that much what with all the schemers :)
04:02:46 <sykopomp> it was more the awkwardness and how everything seemed to go *whoosh* over my head.
04:02:48 <sykopomp> :\
04:03:06 <ianmcorvidae> not good things either, no
04:03:33 <lnostdal> common lisp is wonderful .. the support wrt. numbers and, stuff, is so nice :)  http://nostdal.org/lnostdal/always-here/sw/on-resize-vecto-proper-string.ogv  pixel perfect "real vector fonts" using no plugins :)
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04:07:42 <lisppaste> Moe111 pasted "loop code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86643
04:07:54 <Moe111> any recommendations on how to avoid that double intern?
04:08:20 <Moe111> and in general, is there a better way to access a property list element dynamically (i.e. without calling intern)
04:08:21 <Moe111> ?
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04:11:22 <stassats`> you can write your own GETF which can compare using string=
04:11:56 <Moe111> interesting.
04:12:08 <stassats`> or use alist instead of plist
04:12:15 <Moe111> just roll out an entirely new getf?
04:12:54 <sykopomp> alists \o/
04:13:04 <sykopomp> or you can use a hash table for extra laziness.
04:13:08 <Moe111> btw, just how expensive is an (intern )?
04:13:23 <stassats`> like insertion into a hashtable
04:13:28 <Moe111> for some reason, I'm smitten to plists. I don't know why
04:13:44 <Moe111> so not something I should worry about
04:13:48 <Moe111> (re: intern)
04:14:00 *p_l* recalls some version of scheme having generalized property lists added to every variable
04:14:10 <stassats`> well, you can use hastables directly, not through packages
04:14:38 <Moe111> thing is, you can't inline declare hash table contents. Or can you?
04:14:47 <Moe111> stuff like combining dynamic and static data:
04:14:58 <Moe111> (append (list :key "Static") (dynamic-data))
04:16:08 <stassats`> with existing functions, no, but you can always write your own
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04:18:15 <Zhivago> You could write a macro :)
04:19:51 <Moe111> but I guess we've established that doing two interns will not kill me in the end. I'll leave as is for now and concentrate on real work =)
04:20:39 <stassats`> you can always optimize post-mortem
04:22:33 <fusss> html2ps | ps2pdf seems to be working great for me so far :-)
04:22:52 <Moe111> where you guys from anyways?
04:23:45 <stassats`> Solar System
04:27:14 <p_l> pocket universe
04:30:30 <Moe111> heh. good to know
04:30:39 <Moe111> I ask because it's a saturday night at 12.30 where I am
04:31:05 <Moe111> I'm surprised to see there are others inhabiting the channel at this hour. (I'm simply a workaholic)
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04:36:44 <dacrawford> hah.  Think I fixed named-readtables merging in defreadtable
04:37:21 <_3b> Moe111: for title = (getf ...) when title collect ( ... :title title) ?
04:38:07 *_3b* would probably reimplement getf or search by hand rather than interning though
04:38:27 <_3b> or use a hash table
04:38:38 <stassats`> or alists
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04:41:02 <Moe111> _3b: that works. I also never cease to be amazed by loop
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04:41:44 <lisppaste> dacrawford pasted "named-readtable change" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86644
04:42:30 <dacrawford> I'll email the diff to trittweiler at some point
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04:45:39 <dacrawford> yeah! now I have little tutorial qt windows showing :)
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05:45:59 <fusss> i have a web service taking too long to run, how did one increase timeouts?
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05:46:50 <fusss> I am sure I must have echoed something to /proc/sys/net/*
05:47:05 <fusss> or is there a hunchentoot or usocket configuration I am missing?
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05:48:17 <fusss> there is hunchentoot ACCEPTOR-(READ|WRITE)-TIMEOUT for starters
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05:58:41 <fusss> never mind, it's a pathname bug lurking somewhere, the actual service runs fast enough actually
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06:04:39 <guaqua> we are happy to provide the rubber duck service
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06:45:44 <mrSpec> hello
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07:55:16 <fusss> guaqua: you have no idea how great the #lisp rubber duck service is
07:55:33 <fusss> i pretty much grew up as a web app developer in this channel
07:56:09 <fusss> it's like a peer-reviewed TODO list with distributed archiving :-)
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08:03:47 <easyE> Hello.
08:04:19 <fusss> waddup easyE
08:04:45 <easyE> NIL
08:17:40 <Krystof> how times have changed
08:17:47 <Krystof> I grew up as a compiler hacker in #lisp
08:18:07 <Krystof> "web app developer" just makes me feel old
08:18:54 <tic> compiler hacker has way more street cred
08:19:14 <tic> (on Crazy St., nevertheless, but that's where I live.)
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08:21:15 <mrSpec> hehe, how long are you guys Lisp hackers? ;)
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08:52:07 <csmerlin> Has anyone used a LISP based on linear typing? (EG "Lively Linear LISP" Baker92)
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09:43:52 <boyscared> question: how do i use slime to examine the public contents of a package?
09:44:08 <boyscared> external rather, not public
09:45:00 <easyE> M-x slime-apropos-package
09:45:13 <boyscared> thanks :)
09:45:56 <boyscared> isn't there a way to do that with the inspector as well?
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09:51:25 <weirdo> guys, sorry for offtopic, but which version of flash player works properly on amd64?
09:51:40 <weirdo> the one in debian doesn't allow fullscreen and pause on JewTube
09:51:44 *_3b* uses the amd64 version
09:52:11 <weirdo> i have this one: libflashplayer-10.0.32.18.linux-x86_64.so.tar.gz, but it's broken on JewTube
09:53:06 <_3b> actually, now that i think about it, i ended up using the 32bit version in virtualbox for some stuff
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10:11:39 -!- ehu` changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp>.  New: ABCL 0.16.0, SBCL 1.0.31, Osicat 0.6.0, CFFI 0.10.5, trivial-features 0.5, Hunchentoot & Drakma 1.0.0, usocket 0.4.1, yason-0.1, series 2.2.10, CMUCL 19f.
10:12:05 <ehu`> topic shift: mention ABCL 0.16.0 instead of 0.15.0
10:12:36 <tcr> boyscared: C-c I (find-package :foo)
10:12:58 <tcr> ehu`: finally!
10:13:46 <ehu`> tcr: yup. the holidays are over and I found some time between the todo's of getting married :-)
10:14:36 <PissedNumlock> congrats
10:14:48 <PissedNumlock> een noorderbuur !
10:15:43 <tcr> ehu`: I think you should have mentioned the synchronization stuff in your release mail. I'll blog about it.
10:18:47 <tcr> ehu`: Another idea for your release announcements is to include a roadmap
10:19:13 <ehu`> it's in the release notes, I hope people consult them.
10:19:41 <ehu`> right. I assume you mean more then just mentioning the release moments, not?
10:20:07 <tcr> The formatting of the release notes page is detrimental to the readability
10:20:17 <tcr> Too much bold
10:20:18 <pjb> boyscared: have a look at lspack in http://darcs.informatimago.com/darcs/public/lisp/common-lisp/interactive.lisp
10:20:48 <tcr> (That said, I also find the main page too crowded, but it's okish)
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10:21:14 <easyE> Everyone is a critic. . . ;)
10:21:30 <easyE> But, point taken.
10:21:46 <ehu`> tcr: I've been looking at the formatting of the release notes before. however, without the bold, it wasn't really ok either.
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10:23:02 <tcr> ehu`: Add <br>s after the headlines, and list the items in each section via <ul>
10:23:36 <ehu`> the front page used to be less crowded but in that age, it also used to be too long.
10:23:49 <tcr> I'd probably use org-mode for release notes, that can produce quite readable html pages
10:23:50 <ehu`> maybe some information needs to move to its own page.
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10:25:41 <tcr> ehu`: Most annoying is the download link on the main page because that formatting is inconsistent with the rest
10:26:00 <tcr> A blue background line is used as section header, but for the download link you use it to highlight the download
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10:26:59 <tcr> Additionally, try to make the font size of the description one level bigger.
10:27:16 <tcr> Perhaps that's all that's needed
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10:28:41 <tcr> On the description I'd try to highlight buzz words with bold. I'd just have the description there, and then add a new paragraph containing a list of the buzz wordy features
10:28:54 <tcr> I would _not_ try to highlight via bold
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10:32:06 <tcr> I'll come to #abcl
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10:39:15 <beach> I am beginning to suspect that the problem with the black band at the end of a scroller pane in McCLIM is due to the code for coordinate-swizzling.
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10:52:09 <weirdo> beach, is mcclim actively maintained?
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10:54:19 <tcr> It's actively maintained but not actively worked on :)
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10:56:06 <lisppaste> kerc pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86647
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10:57:02 <kerc> yes, I wondered what is wrong with my foreign function FormatMessage - windows -- clozure c
10:57:06 <kerc> l
10:57:37 <kerc> in paste number 86647
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11:02:52 <zuby13> itz zuby herer
11:03:09 <zuby13> i want know about lisp
11:03:50 <zuby13> how can i get a lisp compiler
11:04:37 <OmniMancer> www.sbcl.org
11:05:33 <zuby13> can i convert  C into lisp by anu converter sofware??
11:06:03 <csmerlin> ... if you write it.  Why would you want to?
11:06:32 <zuby13> coz i dont know lisp
11:06:39 <myrkraverk> zuby13, there *might* (or you could write one) but I doubt you really want to
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11:07:05 <csmerlin> ... it wouldn't (in practice) produce readable or maintainable code
11:07:37 <zuby13> whatever....thankz sirt
11:07:57 <zuby13> is lisp easy to learn
11:08:12 <lichtblau> kerc: you probably won't have much luck getting people to debug random FFI stuff for you here, and even less luck when that needs to be done windows.
11:08:14 <lichtblau> kerc: having said that, FormatMessageA is an stdcall function, not a cdecl function, and plain cffi:cdefcun uses cdecl.
11:08:16 <myrkraverk> to me it was
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11:08:46 <zuby13> ok myrk..
11:09:12 <zuby13> so whre r u from myrk??
11:10:14 <zuby13> n where r u working??
11:10:28 <zuby13> i m from india...banglore
11:10:37 <_3b> kerc: cffi:foreign-string-to-lisp looks like it takes optional args, not keywords
11:11:03 <zuby13> ok
11:11:29 <Adlai> zuby13: how much programming have you done before?
11:11:35 <zuby13> what are the books to learn lisp??
11:11:44 <Adlai> minion: pcl-book for zuby13
11:11:44 <minion> zuby13: look at pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
11:12:06 <Adlai> that's definitely the first book you should look at, if you're interested in using CL
11:12:07 <csmerlin> Also "Successful Lisp" http://www.psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/
11:12:13 <zuby13> thankz adlai...
11:12:19 <Adlai> csmerlin: minion knows about successful-lisp
11:12:37 <zuby13> so where r u from?
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11:13:03 <_3b> kerc: or maybe not, autodoc disagrees with manual
11:13:06 <zuby13> i want to be in touch who9 is a real techie....
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11:13:56 <Adlai> zuby13: people in this channel are spread out all over the world. I don't know if anybody is near you geographically, but there are people online almost all the time. Just ask here if you have questions.
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11:15:37 <kerc> lichtblau, _3b: thanks I shall have a look at the calling convention
11:15:41 <zuby13> ok can i be in touch wid u....
11:15:57 <zuby13> may we become goog frenz
11:16:42 <zuby13> i mean gud frnz
11:17:05 <Adlai> minion: memo for zuby13: You can leave people a memo like this, and it will be delivered when they next talk.
11:17:05 <minion> Remembered. I'll tell zuby13 when he/she/it next speaks.
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11:17:31 <Adlai> zuby13: you're in touch with everybody who is on the channel right now.
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11:17:55 <Zhivago> Ah, a subliterate has broken through the defenses ...
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11:18:57 <Adlai> zuby13: what Zhivago tried to say is that most people in this channel prefer that you not tlk liek u txtn on ur mobil fone kk? thx
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11:20:18 <beach> weirdo: I was thinking of activating it, but it is pretty hard.
11:21:01 <PissedNumlock> but vowels are so overrated
11:21:03 <zuby13> koay man .....this is my firt time on any of the ircs.....i'll learn gradually....
11:21:03 <minion> zuby13, memo from Adlai: You can leave people a memo like this, and it will be delivered when they next talk.
11:21:06 <zuby13> thankz
11:22:19 <Adlai> zuby13: no problem, I hope you enjoy learning Lisp.
11:22:27 <beach> zuby13: it is spelled "thanks".
11:22:55 <zuby13> yes man....thankz m leavin bye.
11:23:31 <beach> It is going to take a long time for zuby13 to learn Lisp, given how hard it is for him/her to spell a single English word right.
11:23:53 <Zhivago> Probably has a nasty case of stupidity to get over.
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11:24:34 <beach> Zhivago: I have a feeling we might find out in the near future.
11:24:43 <pjb> :-)
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11:25:20 <PissedNumlock> well, he gave me a good laugh :)
11:26:36 <Adlai> the whole "ok can i be in touch wid u.... may we become goog frenz" thing was a bit odd
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11:27:41 <PissedNumlock> I tracerouted him as I was hoping someone was joking
11:28:00 <PissedNumlock> Adlai: he was probably copypasting english from nigerian spammessages
11:28:09 <Adlai> it is funny that "zuby" in Hebrew means something along the lines of flipping you off
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11:29:04 <Adlai> it's the physical gesture of flipping somebody off
11:29:09 <OmniMancer> clhs advise
11:29:09 <specbot> Sorry, I couldn't find anything for advise.
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11:29:47 <Adlai> OmniMancer: advising functions isn't in the spec, but many implementations provide a way to do it. Are you using a specific implementation?
11:30:19 <OmniMancer> I use sbcl but was just curious what it was
11:30:49 <Adlai> the idea of "advising" a function is basically to wrap code around it... it's like a poor man's CLOS method combination
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11:31:36 <Adlai> although many of the builtin functions aren't generic functions, so you have no choice if you do need to add method-combination behavior to one of them.
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11:32:40 <OmniMancer> so what does it do?
11:33:01 <Adlai> well, it would vary from Lisp to lisp...
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11:34:56 <Adlai> on CCL, for example, just doing (apropos "advise" :ccl) coughs up a bunch of functions and macros, and if you're in SLIME, you can M-. in and look at what they do. They don't seem too complicated (glanced at them quickly just now)
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11:36:28 <ljames> Does advise work something like setting a symbol's symbol-function to new function which wraps the old one? It doesn't seem to be present in the CL implementation I'm currently using (SBCL).
11:37:16 <Adlai> ljames: that's the idea, as far as I can tell. I've never used it though.
11:37:21 <ljames> ah
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11:38:19 <Adlai> it's fairly simple to write a naive advising facility... the trick is to make one where you can undo previous advice, and for that, I think you need to use implementation-dependant trick
11:38:23 <Adlai> *tricks
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11:40:20 <ljames> I once tried to just directly set a symbols symbol-function to a memoized variant, it worked, but only if the speed optimization was under 3 or so (otherwise the function call would be inlined and it wouldn't work)
11:40:49 <Zhivago> Might not be inlining, but same-file calls.
11:40:55 <Adlai> you could (declare (notinline your-function))
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11:41:17 <Adlai> you could choose like-yoda to-speak!
11:41:30 <ljames> hmm, inline might be the wrong term, but basically if one examines the disassemble, it was a call *offset* instead of call dword ptr [symbol-function.symbol] or something
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11:41:40 <ljames> so it was a direct call the the function offset
11:42:01 <ljames> *to the
11:42:08 <Adlai> hmm, I don't think that's inlining.
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11:49:50 <dto> dio
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12:05:34 <myrkraverk> does lisp have something akin to static variables in C? that is, preserved across function calls
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12:08:56 <OmniMancer> make a closure
12:08:57 <thijso> Anyone using atdoc (the documentation generation thingy)? I'm trying to use it to document a method which has defaults for it's keys, but then it seems that atdoc doesn't understand that they are the same keys as declared in the defgeneric and thus they get added to the lambda list twice in the atdoc generated html...
12:08:59 <ljames> unless I misunderstood what you meant, you could accomplish something like that by wrapping your defun in a let binding?
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12:09:21 <OmniMancer> yea
12:09:25 <thijso> i.e. I get: "set-server (client &key host port path (host localhost) (port 3312))"
12:09:41 <OmniMancer> make your function a closure the closed values are preserved across calls
12:09:48 <thijso> Am I doing something wrong, or is this a (known) bug?
12:09:54 <myrkraverk> thank you
12:10:33 <OmniMancer> is there a common lisp for mocrocontrollers?
12:10:41 <OmniMancer> microcontrollers
12:10:46 <PissedNumlock> ECL ?
12:11:11 <OmniMancer> the E in ECL means the other kind of embeddable?
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12:11:37 <PissedNumlock> it compiles to C code
12:12:05 <PissedNumlock> although I do not know the memory footprint of the generated code and if it is useful for embedded systems
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12:12:17 <OmniMancer> I some how don't quite believe that the runtime system is scalable enough
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12:14:40 <OmniMancer> bye
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12:18:03 <thijso> hmmm.. seems it's actually swank that returns that arg list...
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12:23:14 <pjb> Well some microcontrolers have enough memory and power to run ecl or clisp...
12:24:51 <PissedNumlock> I should test it, we have some arduinos I think
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12:34:26 <pixel5> PissedNumlock: arduinos are based on that 8-bit atmel avr controllers. not much to test...
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12:37:41 <PissedNumlock> well I don't have much (read any) experience with embedded stuff
12:37:50 <PissedNumlock> might try it just for fun
12:41:35 <myrkraverk> is the sbcl manual available in pdf anywhere?
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12:42:59 <thijso> lichtblau: I sent you an email about the above problem I had, together with a diff that solves it for me... not sure if that's the solution to use, but it seems to work for me...
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12:47:59 <magius_pendragon> Last couple days, (format t "whatever") has not been outputting to the screen in slime. Just tested it in sbcl on command line, and that worked.
12:48:29 <magius_pendragon> I also get a error when starting slime about different versions (2008-12-09 slime vs 2009-09-03 swank), and I just tried a fresh cvs checkout of slime
12:48:32 <magius_pendragon> any ideas?
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12:50:13 <myrkraverk> clhs unsigned-byte
12:50:13 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_unsgn_.htm
12:50:31 <ljames> magius_pendragon, maybe has something to do with this http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Global-IO-Redirection.html
12:50:45 <pkhuong> magius_pendragon: are you on debian?
12:51:03 <magius_pendragon> pkhuong: nope, OS X using MacPorts
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12:53:04 <pkhuong> Or aquamacs?
12:53:11 <magius_pendragon> pkhuong: Aquamacs yes
12:53:32 francogrex [n=franco@91.179.242.159] has joined #lisp
12:53:33 <pkhuong> And you did the checkout from inside aquamacs?
12:53:36 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp
12:53:39 <magius_pendragon> pkhuong: no, terminal
12:53:56 <pkhuong> right, but inside aquamacs.app?
12:53:58 <Sikander> Is asdf supposed to work similar to a makefile, in the sense that if one of the source files has changed it recompiles them?
12:54:18 <pkhuong> Sikander: yes.
12:54:23 <Sikander> thanx
12:54:31 <magius_pendragon> pkhuong: nope, but i have a line in my aquamacs config that points at it...i thought..
12:54:58 <francogrex> hi, anyone knows if loop is cltl2? because i'm using gcl 2.4.0 (2001) for windows mobile and it doesn't recognize "loop"
12:55:22 <francogrex> not even sure gcl2.4.0 was cltl2
12:55:42 <pkhuong> The first problem to fix is that your aquamacs isn't using the SLIME you checked out (but is sending the new SWANK to SBCL, which is strange).
12:55:52 <magius_pendragon> pkhuong: have (add-to-list 'load-path "path-to-slime") and "path-to-slime-contrib" in my preferences.el
12:55:59 <fe[nl]ix> francogrex: try (require 'loop)
12:56:16 <francogrex> ok will try thanks
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12:57:05 <pkhuong> magius_pendragon: did you restart aquamacs after the checkout?
12:57:10 <magius_pendragon> pkhuong: trying that now
12:57:23 <magius_pendragon> pkhuong: yup, that seems to have done it, thanks
12:57:27 <magius_pendragon> should have tried that first
12:57:34 <francogrex> fe[nl]ix: it doesn't seem to work
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12:58:14 <francogrex> i think it's missing
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12:59:54 <francogrex> no prob; i will install "iterate" instead
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13:01:55 <weirdo> gee, g++ is a clusterfuck
13:02:09 <weirdo> just try compiling anything that wasn't released this week
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13:12:59 <ArtVandalae> Hi guys, I've tried searching on Google, but Google appears to have trouble recognising the star character. What is the difference between do and do*?
13:15:24 <pkhuong> clhs do
13:15:25 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_do.htm
13:16:55 <weirdo> ArtVandalae, download hyperspec-lookup.el by naggum
13:17:24 <PissedNumlock> isn't that default with slime + emacs?
13:17:29 <PissedNumlock> C-C C-d h
13:17:37 <ausente> weirdo LOL
13:18:29 <beach> ausente: Why is that funny?
13:18:39 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp
13:19:08 <beach> ArtVandalae: If you just want to know the difference, click on the URL that specbot showed you.
13:19:16 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-10.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"]
13:19:20 <ausente> beach the nick, man
13:19:54 <ausente> weirdo from muppets
13:19:57 <ArtVandalae> Thanks guys
13:20:03 <ausente> in brazil was calling gonzo
13:20:23 *PissedNumlock* still doesn't get it
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13:24:23 <Demosthenes> anyone here using postmodern for object persistance?
13:24:46 <Demosthenes> i'm having conceptual difficulty resolving having multiple 'generations' of objects using the same table.
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13:25:40 *weirdo* used cl-perec and it had problems with redefining classes
13:26:07 <Demosthenes> well, i'm working with a file format that has grown over time... always adding fields, never removing
13:26:15 <Demosthenes> and i need multiple generations of data in the same table
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13:27:21 <Demosthenes> tahts the crux... i suppose when i can build the table off of the latest object revision
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13:29:26 <Demosthenes> it makes sense to me that the newer objects would inherit off the old... no problem there
13:29:30 <Demosthenes> in fact, that all makes sense.
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13:29:48 <Demosthenes> its the backend storage, dumping objects to SQL that is the issue
13:29:52 <Demosthenes> since they all have to be normalized
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13:34:14 <myrkraverk> can I declare the return type of functions?
13:34:50 <Adlai> clhs ftype
13:34:50 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_ftype.htm
13:34:50 <p_l> clhs ftype
13:34:51 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_ftype.htm
13:34:56 <p_l> haha
13:36:34 <ArtVandalae> Is there a function like cons, but that puts the elements at the end of the list? Not append. I mean If the function is call X, then: (X '(3 4) '((1 2))) => ((1 2) (3 4))
13:36:48 <ArtVandalae> *called X
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13:37:19 <Adlai> ArtVandalae: (lambda (x y) (append y (list x))) ?
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13:39:43 <Adlai> in other words, no, not really, but it shouldn't be hard to write it. It's a bit harder if you want to modify the list, though -- ie, the equivalent of push, but at the end.
13:39:49 <ArtVandalae> Thanks Adlai :) I was hoping there might be a built-in though
13:40:17 <Adlai> ArtVandalae: the closest CL has to a builtin for that is the :COLLECT clause of LOOP
13:41:03 <beach> ArtVandalae: People already complain that CL is too big as it is.  Providing all possible functions on lists that people might want, but that would be easy to write, would make it even bigger.
13:41:42 *Adlai* grumbles about the lack of an open-source tree-shaking CL image dumper.
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13:42:51 <pixel5> Adlai: afaik there is some shake-tree-and-die thingy in sbcl
13:42:54 *beach* instead blames the stupid OSes we have had ever since Unix was invented. 
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13:43:06 <Adlai> pixel5: really? never heard of it.
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13:44:59 <DeusExPikachu> isn't it just (save-lisp-and-die file-path)?
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13:46:25 <pkhuong> ArtVandalae: sure, it's called snoc. The only problem is that conversion from snoc-lists to cons-lists takes linear time.
13:46:43 <ArtVandalae> Ah okay
13:47:14 <ArtVandalae> I won't bother in that case, coz I need as much speed as I can get in this application
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13:48:08 <Adlai> DeusExPikachu: most Lisps support that -- that's just a raw image dump, and it can get pretty big... some of the commercial lisps do "tree shaking" where they leave out parts of the image which are unnecessary to your program, and it leads to smaller image sizes.
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13:48:48 <DeusExPikachu> Adlai, oh, I see, seems implementation dependent
13:49:03 <beach> ArtVandalae: In most cases it is sufficient for the programmer to imagine that lists are drawn from right to left instead, and just use cons.
13:49:43 <myrkraverk> can I clear all definitions from sbcl/slime ?
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13:50:28 <beach> ArtVandalae: I once had a student who was supposed to write a program to accumulate text into lines and words, and he used (the equivalent of) append intead, not realizing that the order of the characters within a word and the words within a line was just a matter of conventions.  Plus, in the worst case, one could reverse them once in the end.
13:51:10 <beach> ArtVandalae: So tell us again why you wanted to place the thing at the end of the list?
13:51:11 <PissedNumlock> isn't reversing them once as slow as appending each word?
13:51:17 <beach> PissedNumlock: No
13:51:34 <beach> PissedNumlock: Reversing once in the end is linear, using append for each element is quadratic.
13:51:59 <PissedNumlock> oh yes, reverse is lineair :)
13:52:05 <PissedNumlock> he could have kept a lastpointer though
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13:52:16 <ArtVandalae> beach, just for reading clarity.
13:52:34 <beach> ArtVandalae: As I have said a few times now, just reverse at the end then.
13:52:36 <Adlai> loop's collect clause uses a tail pointer, fyi.
13:52:49 <pkhuong> Adlai: really? How can you tell?
13:53:06 <p_l> Adlai: there is a proof-of-concept, primitive tree-shaker that ran on older version of SBCL
13:53:12 <Adlai> pkhuong: macroexpansion -- so true, it's not guaranteed, but on the implementations that I use, it does :)
13:53:19 <beach> ArtVandalae: You said you need all the speed you can get.  Programmers typically sacrifice "reading clarity" in that case.
13:53:26 <Adlai> "guaranteed" = in the clhs
13:54:16 <beach> ArtVandalae: Besides, what makes using append improve the reading clarity?
13:54:20 <pixel5> yeah. hit the gas pedal and loosen he handbrake only if the mill is about to wind up :p
13:57:09 <myrkraverk> can I make the literal 1 be of type (unsigned-byte 32) ?
13:58:05 <beach> it already is
13:58:33 <beach> (typep 1 '(unsigned-byte 32)) => t
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13:58:39 <myrkraverk> ah
13:59:16 <myrkraverk> then why if I start with (declaim (type (vector (unsigned-byte 32) 12) cache)) can I not do (setf cache (vector 1 1 2 6 24 120 720 5040 40320 362880 3628800 39916800)) ?
13:59:47 <weirdo> myrkraverk, use COERCE
13:59:56 <myrkraverk> clhs coerce
13:59:56 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_coerce.htm
14:00:07 <pkhuong> clhs vector
14:00:07 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_vector.htm
14:00:29 <pkhuong> vector---a vector of type (vector t *).
14:01:07 <lisppaste> weirdo pasted "for myrkraverk" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86648
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14:01:21 <beach> myrkraverk: What pkhuong said.  The function VECTOR returns a vector which is not the type you want.
14:01:34 <myrkraverk> ah, I see
14:01:40 <myrkraverk> and thank you weirdo
14:02:59 <beach> Oh, no!  Fibonacci!
14:03:02 <weirdo> this is so sweet. i just installed sbcl and emacs, M-x slime worked despite a completely different linux distro
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14:03:13 <beach> No wait, factorial.
14:03:13 <weirdo> then, all my libraries run as usual after just rm -rf ~/.fasls
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14:07:12 <weirdo> hmm there's factorial algorithm complexity. is there fibonacci complexity too?
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14:10:41 <Adlai> weirdo: iirc, the fibonacci sequence grows roughtly exponentially, so "fibonacci complexity" is basically the same as saying O(k^n) complexity
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14:11:16 <Adlai> (the ratio between two consecutive fibonacci numbers approaches 1.618..., phi)
14:12:28 <myrkraverk> Adamant, even any two numbers, iirc
14:12:41 <myrkraverk> though mayb one has to be odd
14:12:52 <Krystof> the ratio between any two numbers approaches 1.618?
14:12:57 <Krystof> you should write that discovery up
14:13:05 <myrkraverk> it's well known
14:13:39 <Adlai> myrkraverk: you talking to me?
14:13:48 <myrkraverk> Adlai, yes, sorry
14:13:58 <Adlai> what do you mean by "any two numbers"?
14:14:12 <stassats`> (float (/ 42 96)) => 0.4375; oops
14:14:21 <Demosthenes> how does lisp address method overloading? ie: parent object has a method, child object builds on said method. in other languages you could call the parent object method first in your child method, followed by your new child code. i don't see that you can address that.
14:14:28 <Krystof> probably "two successive numbers in the series with x_0 = a, x_1 = b and the Fibonacci recurrence"
14:14:32 <myrkraverk> add 65 128, and continue like you do fibonacci, then you should get the ratio phy
14:14:41 <Adlai> stassats`: yes, but limit as 42 approaches 160...
14:14:44 <Krystof> but there was a serious lack of clarity which I was mocking
14:15:21 <stassats`> Demosthenes: first, object do not have methods
14:15:23 <Adlai> Demosthenes: in Common Lisp, the object system has a sophisticated method combination protocol.
14:15:33 <stassats`> objects
14:15:45 <Zhivago> demo: See call-next-method.
14:15:49 <myrkraverk> and now, food; then math, and no lisp ;-D
14:15:52 <myrkraverk> see you guys
14:15:55 <Adlai> myrkraverk, Krystof: I see, interesting.
14:15:59 <Adlai> see you, myrkraverk.
14:16:40 <Adlai> isn't the fibonacci sequence the best integer approximation, though?
14:17:17 <Adlai> hm, my number theory is rusty.
14:18:39 <Krystof> I'm not sure "best" is desperately well-defined
14:19:11 <dacrawford> is there a way to get the ERC prompt to stay at the bottom of the pane instead of popping to the middle when a new line comes in?
14:19:35 <stassats`> #emacs should know
14:19:47 <beach> Demosthenes: That is usually the wrong approach though.  Use method combinations instead.
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14:20:20 <Demosthenes> adding a class specific :after?
14:20:53 <beach> Demosthenes: Sometimes!  Sometimes you would go different method combination altogether, like progn or append.
14:20:57 <Krystof> or an :around, or ...
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14:22:11 <Demosthenes> i'm just thinking in a perl object you would call the parent's method explicitly, and then your own code. here we can't do that, so you use :after isntead
14:22:13 <Adlai> Demosthenes: I found PCL's chapter on this stuff fairly clear.
14:22:33 <Adlai> oh, you could call the parent method explicitly if you wanted to
14:22:39 <dacrawford> like they said, look up call-next-method
14:22:54 <beach> Demosthenes: It's the other way around.  You can do that with call-next-method, but in Perl you are forced to using this inferior solution.
14:23:04 <Adlai> if you wanted to call a specific method, you can dig it out of generic-function objects or class objects, and then call it.
14:23:53 <beach> Krystof: I don't know if you saw it, but I suspect the code responsible for the black band at the end of a scroller pane is the coordinate-swizzling code (by gilberth, I believe).  I am not entirely sure yet, though.
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14:25:50 <beach> I can see one practical use of explicit constructors like make-window-repaint-event (which would just call make-instance with 'window-paint-event), namely that I could trace such a constructor.
14:27:43 <Krystof> you could add an initialize-instance :before/:after method on window-paint-event
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14:32:21 <Demosthenes> *blink* stumpwm?
14:32:56 <Adlai> Demosthenes: they're discussing McCLIM
14:32:57 <Krystof> clhs vector-pop
14:32:58 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_vec_po.htm
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14:45:12 <beach> Krystof: I could do that.
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15:20:50 <felideon> hello...  I installed UCW through clbuild, and I can't find /ucw/etc or /ucw/bin in /clbuild/source/ucw
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15:22:24 <felideon> what am i missing?
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15:46:48 <galdor> is there someone here who uses cffi and knows what's the more portable way to declare an intptr_t type?
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15:47:35 <galdor> oh I'm just stupid, it's already in cffi
15:47:38 <galdor> not in the doc though
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16:01:16 <Krystof> deleted #P"/home/csr21/sbcl/obj/from-xc/src/code/fd-stream.lisp-obj-tmp"
16:01:16 <Krystof> grr
16:01:26 <Krystof> my workflow needs improving
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16:04:03 <Demosthenes> these mit videos are good, but on occasion boring ;]
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16:05:56 <tcr> dcrawford: yes?
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16:23:58 <dacrawford> tcr: set you an email with a patch for named-readtables
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16:28:20 <dacrawford> tcr: until sbcl is patched, I also looked into putting a check if the character is defined as a dispatch char already around the call to make-dispatch-m-c , but for now I just noop-ed the sbcl error call
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16:31:19 <beach> So, assuming the problem is in the coordinate-swizzling code, should we try to find the problem and fix it, or replace coordinate-swizzling with something else?
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16:35:35 <mathrick> Krystof: needs details
16:39:49 <weirdo> galdor, the correct way is to use some groveller
16:39:55 <weirdo> iolib-alien-grovel or cffi-grovel
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16:40:10 <weirdo> don't under any circumstance just hardcode sizes
16:40:18 <beach> Perhaps someone should give a tutoral at ELS2010 about debugging.  I find myself very frustrated every time I need to find a problem.  As usual, I suspect I am doing it wrong, and that a right way exists, so it would be great to have someone tell me how.
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16:41:16 <weirdo> beach, about CLIM, perhaps the best way to debug it would be to trace XLIB calls
16:41:28 <weirdo> and note the stack trace each time they're called
16:42:03 <beach> weirdo: Usually, that generates too much information though.
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16:42:12 <weirdo> yeah :|
16:42:20 <weirdo> it's even worse with unix programs
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16:42:32 <beach> Is it?
16:42:45 <weirdo> yeah, requires explicit compilation with debugging symbols
16:42:51 gilberth [n=gilbert@d076128.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp
16:42:56 <weirdo> same with profiling
16:43:03 <beach> hey gilberth!
16:43:26 <beach> How did you know I was looking into your coordinate-swizzling code?
16:43:46 <beach> gilberth: I guess you have a permanent grep in the logs for you nick?
16:44:11 <gilberth> No, I don't.
16:44:22 <beach> gilberth: What a coincidence then!
16:44:26 <gilberth> So what is the problem with my code?
16:45:15 <beach> I don't know for sure it's your code, but I have a test case that exposes the problem of the black band at the end of a scroller pane, and it turns out it has to do with the window-repaint-event that is generated by X11.
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16:46:01 <weirdo> beach, what program is that?
16:46:12 <beach> Hold on, I'll lisppaste it.
16:47:57 <lisppaste> beach pasted "McCLIM scroller pane problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86654
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16:49:33 <beach> For a while, I thought the entire scrolled pane was shown and that there was just extra stuff at the end, which would have indicated a scroll-bar calculation problem, but as it turns out, The amount of stuff shown is correct; it is just that repaint is never called on the last part of the scrolled pane.
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16:50:01 <beach> gilberth: Actually, I am being unfaire to submit a problem to you right away before wishing you welcome back.
16:50:07 <beach> gilberth: How are things these days?
16:50:30 <gilberth> beach: Not really better.
16:50:38 <beach> Ouch!
16:51:07 <beach> gilberth: Is your company at least making some money?
16:51:13 <gilberth> Hmm, when i resize the application frame, everything seems to turn out right.
16:51:16 *hefner* thought the pane sizes were coming out wrong, always wondered if there wasn't some madness with the asynchronous nature of configure-notify events, never really looked into it
16:51:30 <beach> gilberth: Yeah, but when you resize it back, the problem sometimes re-appears.
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16:51:59 <dacrawford> re-appears? is there some caching?
16:53:01 <beach> dacrawford: No, it is just that if you make the frame smaller again, the problem occasionally re-appears.
16:53:41 <dacrawford> ah, as in it's not a once-it-is-fixed-it-never-happens-again problem
16:54:28 <tcr> dcrawford: that issue is probably known to me (haven't look at the patch), and I also sent it upstream to no avail so far. We'll talk later.
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16:54:31 <mathrick> weirdo: link to iolib-alien-grovel?
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16:54:38 <mathrick> also, is it supposed to work with cffi?
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16:55:27 <weirdo> mathrick, apparently it's obsolete now
16:55:52 <weirdo> with the inclusion of cffi-grovel
16:56:32 <mathrick> oh
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16:57:13 <mathrick> well, I guess that for what I'm interested in, gobject-introspection is really the good way and grovelling would be just a painful way of doing the wrong thing
16:57:28 <mathrick> it just needs to land upstream in all the libs
16:57:45 <gilberth> beach: Please see http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/mcclim-devel/2005-December/006036.html
17:00:01 <beach> gilberth: Excellent:  I assume that code is not committed?
17:00:26 <gilberth> beach: No, it is not.
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17:03:42 <dacrawford> only figured out four years ago :P
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17:06:19 <mishoo> cheers
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17:07:55 <mathrick> hello mishoo
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17:32:15 <galdor> is there a way in cffi to define a struct member array whose size is defined by the value of an enum element value?
17:32:51 <galdor> ie., when I have an enum member ALLEGRO_KEY_MAX, then in a struct, unsigned int __key_down__internal__[(ALLEGRO_KEY_MAX + 31) / 32];
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17:34:40 <antoszka> I'd like to start reading news in Emacs. What's your favourite reader you'd suggest I start with? Plain old gnus? Or are there better ones?
17:35:06 <antoszka> Damn, wrong channel.
17:35:12 <stassats`> mutt!
17:36:20 <antoszka> I use mutt for e-mail.
17:36:32 <antoszka> Somehow never got to like the nntp mode.
17:36:38 <antoszka> (for reasons I don't remember now)
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17:36:48 <galdor> I use mutt for emails, slrn for nntp
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17:37:00 <galdor> one tool for one job is kinda nice
17:37:21 <drewc> antoszka: i use gnus for news. it works well enough.
17:37:28 <antoszka> OK.
17:37:43 <drewc> antoszka: i use wanderlust for mail though, so have been considering moving news over to it as well.
17:37:50 <antoszka> Aha.
17:38:16 <drewc> try both! :)
17:38:27 <antoszka> Yeah, I might
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17:39:40 <antoszka> Wanderlust from CVS?
17:39:49 <antoszka> The release seems somewhat dated...
17:40:47 <deech> Has anyone here used Qi?
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18:00:44 <beach> Good evening!
18:01:38 <beach> gilberth: So you don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with the coordinate-swizzling code?
18:02:07 <gilberth> Well, I believe what I wrote in that posting is still true.
18:02:13 <weirdo> hmm
18:02:31 <weirdo> since pathnames are deliberately underspecified, is it non-portable to hardcode any namestring in the program?
18:02:56 <gilberth> beach: We might consider to commit that patch of mine.
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18:03:31 <beach> gilberth: Sure, that would be a start.
18:03:48 <beach> gilberth: I guess you are still to busy to dig into this and find the real problem?
18:04:10 <gilberth> beach: busy is not so much the problem.
18:04:31 <beach> I see.
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18:06:01 <gilberth> beach: Well, I guess we ought to commit that and add a note that we miss some opportunities for doing less work.
18:06:15 <p_l> deech: I considered it, but dismissed due to license
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18:06:55 <stassats`> and now it's dead
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18:10:15 <beach> gilberth: If in your commit you could give some more clues (more than in the messge you cited) that would be great!
18:10:39 <gilberth> beach: OK, I see want I can do.
18:11:19 <tcr> dcrawford: Thanks for your mail. Unfortunately your patch isn't right, I think, the conditionals were there on purpose. This needs some thinking.
18:12:14 <beach> gilberth: As usual in the beginning of the academic year, I have some resolutions about working on some interesting stuff during the year, and since I often get back to McCLIM, this time I was thinking of fixing some bugs in it.  This one was the first one I investigated.  But I know from experience that things will rapidly make it impossible for me to continue.
18:12:33 <dacrawford> tcr: I figured there had to be some reason, but it makes the simple case defreadtable :merge horribly broken
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18:13:45 <dacrawford> tcr: if you do make-readtable with a :merge keyword that does an initial copy of standard, then it works .. but that's not what's done with defreadtable because that's more special case
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18:13:53 <tcr> dcrawford: The reason is the following: Say readtable :A install a non-standard macro-character on #\(, and readtable :B installs some reader-macro on #\!. Now if you (:merge :STANDARD :A :B), the #\( in :B would overwrite the custom one in :A.
18:14:03 <tcr> dcrawford: I really should have put in a comment on that point.
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18:15:05 <tcr> dacrawford: That's what DEFREADTABLE used to do until yesterday.
18:15:26 <dacrawford> tcr: figures I got the code yesterday
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18:16:06 <tcr> I'll close this window now and try to come up with a solution. I'll say you when you can pull.
18:16:07 <dacrawford> tcr: because now (:merge :standard :A :B) is equivalent to (:merge :A :B)
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18:16:55 <tcr> Yes, the obvious thing is to test for *STANDARD-READTABLE* in merge-readtables-into. Perhaps there's something better, though.
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18:19:17 <dacrawford> tcr: the added make-dispatch-m-c is still needed though I think
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18:22:26 <weirdo> hmm, profiles usually have one problem
18:22:27 <dacrawford> tcr: instead of testing for :standard you might be able to see if the char exists in the result table, and only do the unless if it exists, otherwise just add it
18:22:36 <weirdo> profilers*
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18:22:52 <weirdo> they don't account time spent in system calls as spent in the function that calls it
18:23:11 <weirdo> perl's profiler shows absurd results because of it
18:23:17 <weirdo> and sbcl's ones aren't that better :(
18:23:35 <p_l> weirdo: what about using whole-system profiling, then? :)
18:23:46 <weirdo> p_l, what's that?
18:23:57 <sellout> p_l: Like oprofile?
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18:24:34 <weirdo> oh wait. lisp profilers have no way of knowing
18:24:46 <sellout> p_l: Does SBCL allow you to make an image that presents its symbols in the right way?
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18:24:53 <weirdo> if one traced the lisp wrapper that calls the system call, it would crash and burn if the profiler itself runs system calls
18:25:00 <weirdo> which it typically does, since it allocates memory
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18:35:24 <p_l> weirdo: that's why you usually dump tracing data to another system
18:35:57 <francogrex> has anyone read this: "Common LISP Modules: Artificial Intelligence in the Era of Neural Networks and Chaos Theory" ?
18:36:53 <beach> francogrex: Sounds like one to skip.
18:37:17 <mathrick> is there a predicate to check if a variable is declared (globally) special?
18:37:25 <beach> francogrex: The ratio between buzzwords and information is way to high!
18:37:38 <beach> *too
18:37:56 <stassats`> mathrick: cltl2:variable-information
18:38:07 <mathrick> aha, not in the standard?
18:38:09 <mathrick> thanks
18:38:11 <francogrex> beach: what buzzwords?
18:38:34 <stassats`> mathrick: yes, not in the standard, sbcl has it under sb-cltl2 package
18:38:41 <beach> francogrex: Common Lisp, Module, Artificial Inteligence, Neural Networks, Chaos Theory.
18:38:42 <stassats`> ccl in the CCL package
18:38:42 <weirdo> writing a perl program was a mistake to begin with. i should consider doing everything aside from shell scripting in lisp
18:38:55 <beach> francogrex: practically only the conjuctions left.
18:39:13 <weirdo> i wrote "foo $file && bar" when i should have written "foo $file and bar". crap.
18:39:17 <mathrick> stassats`: I know this much :)
18:39:19 MrSmiley909 [n=Mr@r37h66.res.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp
18:39:32 <mathrick> well, maybe not about the ccl: bit, but sb-cltl2 is known to me
18:39:54 <mathrick> weirdo: and what's the difference/
18:39:55 <mathrick> ?
18:40:19 <weirdo> mathrick, precedence. "and" binds looser
18:40:24 <mathrick> aha
18:40:24 <MrSmiley909> Is there a function that returns if an atom is in a list?
18:40:33 <mathrick> MrSmiley909: find
18:40:44 <stassats`> clhs member
18:40:45 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_member.htm
18:41:00 <mathrick> stassats`: oh, right, member
18:41:05 <stassats`> it's hard to find NIL with find
18:41:30 <mathrick> speaking of operators, are there standard non-shortcircuiting versions of AND and OR in the standard?
18:41:50 <stassats`> shortcircuiting?
18:42:17 <tcr> dacrawford: make-d-m-c should not be needed because the dispatch reader macro function itself is supposed to be copied
18:42:20 <mathrick> stassats`: (or 10 (error "no shortcircuiting"))
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18:43:41 <stassats`> (some #'identity (list 10 (error "bah")))
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18:46:16 <mathrick> stassats`: I know I can build my own, I was asking about the standard
18:46:28 <stassats`> this is standard
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18:48:04 <mathrick> stassats`: taken this way, everything you can possibly code in CL is "standard"
18:48:18 <mathrick> uhm, why does (and 10) expand to (the t 10) in SBCL?
18:48:28 <mathrick> what's the point of emitting (the t whatever)?
18:49:13 <tcr> differentiating between boolean and generalized boolean
18:49:26 <tcr> oh THE?
18:50:21 <tcr> perhaps some obscure point wrt multiple values
18:50:31 <mathrick> might be
18:50:40 <stassats`> what's the point in writing (and 10) ?
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18:50:56 <mathrick> stassats`: it expands to the ONLY in the singular case
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18:51:19 <stassats`> ONLY?
18:51:44 <stassats`> oh, "to THE only"
18:52:09 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp
18:52:29 <stassats`> ;; Preserve non-toplevelness of the form!  `(the t ,(first forms)))
18:52:32 <mathrick> stassats`: right, my fault for not capitalising it properly
18:52:41 <mathrick> oh, I see
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18:53:13 <piso> otherwise 10 might be mistaken for a tag in a tagbody
18:53:52 <stassats`> piso: is there any changelog for XCL?
18:54:04 <piso> stassats`: sadly no
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18:54:44 <stassats`> diff to the rescue
18:54:58 <piso> stassats`: do you have a specify issue?
18:55:04 <piso> specific
18:55:40 <stassats`> i'm just curious
18:56:23 <stassats`> btw, when will it support networking, if not already?
18:56:35 <piso> networking?
18:56:49 <stassats`> sockets, etc.
18:56:51 <piso> it already supports sockets (and has for a long time)
18:56:51 <tcr> stassats` probably wants to write a swank backend
18:57:00 <stassats`> tcr: right
18:57:16 <piso> I've had a functioning slime-for-j for ages
18:58:01 <tcr> Well, hand it over to stassats` so he can polish it up and commit it to the upstream version
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18:58:04 <piso> xcl may not have quite enough clos for slime-for-emacs, but I'm not sure how much is required
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18:58:24 <piso> slime-for-j is really quite different internally from slime-for-emacs
18:59:01 <tcr> well it needs some way to create a customized socket stream
18:59:16 <piso> that is missing
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19:01:43 <tcr> Well, it does not necessarily have to involve clos. If streams are structure, we can inherit by means of :include in DEFSTRUCT
19:01:53 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32C8B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp
19:01:55 <tcr> but in case of XCL that's probably all c++?
19:02:12 <piso> streams are not structures in xcl
19:02:33 <piso> they are instances of a C++ class
19:02:43 <piso> and hence opaque to Lisp
19:02:51 <beach> Good night!
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19:03:28 <piso> but I could provide a slime-[input|output]-stream, as abcl has (or used to have)
19:03:32 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
19:04:11 <tcr> yes it still does have
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19:04:31 <piso> then that would suffice for xcl as well?
19:04:50 <tcr> sure, please do so if you want more people to try out xcl
19:05:05 <mathrick> eww, that's hacky
19:05:15 <ehu`> piso: that strategy doesn't really work well with Gray streams.
19:05:28 <ehu`> as it's impossible to make CLOSE a generic function.
19:05:40 <ehu`> (ouch)
19:05:44 <tcr> why not?
19:05:44 <piso> hmm
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19:06:11 <ehu`> because the compiler will be called when calling CLOSE, but the compiler uses CLOSE itself too.
19:06:17 <ehu`> at least in ABCL.
19:06:47 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp
19:06:50 <piso> well, I could do slime-[input|output]-stream in an hour or two, but proper gray streams would take a lot longer
19:06:58 <tcr> ehu`: Heh
19:08:01 <ehu`> I have been thinking about a scheme where the compilers' use of CLOSE can be eliminated; for example by distinguishing between internal and external streams, but that's just as tricky.
19:08:10 <piso> does slime use gray streams in addition to slime-[input|output]-streams, or instead of them?
19:08:20 <tcr> piso: It's your decision. If you say xcl is far enough for the cynical-yet-unhelpful eyes of the intertubes, do so. It'll probably make more people try out xcl.
19:08:58 <dacrawford> tcr: when doing merge-readtables-into with an empty/fresh starting result-table, sbcl errors w/o m-d-m-c when merging :standard into it.
19:08:59 <ehu`> piso: as far as I understand, if you support gray streams, that's what SLIME will use itself.
19:09:03 <tcr> piso: Instead; cmucl uses the :include defstruct route, abcl the ext:make-slime-output-stream, all else use gray streams
19:09:38 <piso> well, in the fullness of time, I expect xcl to have a decent implementation of gray streams, but I'm not ready to work on that right now
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19:10:12 <piso> but I'll do slime-streams later this week (I'm going on vacation for a few days first)
19:10:16 <dacrawford> tcr: the char would only have set-macro-character applied to it yet, and that's not enough for a call to set-dispatch-macro-character to not fail
19:10:18 <tcr> piso: Of course, I imagine lots of people will try out xcl and just comment that it's not prime time yet. (Just a guess, I haven't ever looked at it, so I don't know how far it is.)
19:10:32 <tcr> dacrawford: Right
19:10:42 <piso> xcl's big achievement is that it can build sbcl
19:10:49 <ole4> what is xcl?+
19:10:57 <stassats`> minion: xcl?
19:10:58 <minion> xcl: XCL is a Common lisp implementation licensed under GPL. http://www.cliki.net/xcl
19:11:04 <piso> ole4: http://armedbear.org/
19:11:11 <tcr> Bah what a bad description
19:11:12 <stassats`> minion: what does XCL stand for?
19:11:12 <minion> Xanthene Common Lisp
19:11:21 <tcr> It's really GPL? The interesting thing is that it's written in C++.
19:11:28 <dmiles> a Q i have about ABCLs running of compiled code vs interpreted code.. ABCL starts faster when its internal libraries are compiled.. but wondering if it runs faster
19:11:32 <piso> it's temporarily GPL
19:11:52 <mathrick> has anyone looked at LW's (or was it Franz's?) alternative extensible streams?
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19:12:04 <mathrick> how well do they compare to gray streams?
19:12:16 <dacrawford> will xcl's c++ nature make it ffi better against c++ libraries?
19:12:26 <Krystof> Franz.  They're less terrible than Gray streams, but even less well-specified
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19:12:32 <piso> dmiles: abcl runs much faster when its code is compiled; startup time is a completely different issue
19:12:38 <mathrick> piso: it's really confusing that armedbear.org points at xcl
19:12:55 <piso> mathrick: my apologies!
19:13:18 <mathrick> Krystof: aha, that's a pity
19:13:20 <piso> dacrawford: I doubt it
19:13:37 <mathrick> piso: no need to apologise, but it is
19:13:43 <mathrick> xcl.org would be good
19:14:02 <piso> I think all the xcl.* domains are in the hands of squatters
19:14:23 <piso> (and xcl is not necessarily its final name, in any case)
19:14:39 <dacrawford> isn't the  "classpath exception" for lisp basically  Lisp LGPL ( LLGPL )
19:14:49 <piso> dacrawford: yeah, more or less
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19:16:07 <mathrick> piso: ah, right, squatters :(
19:16:09 <tmh> Greetings.
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19:17:49 <tcr> piso: A cool thing to show off would be to make M-. jump to the internal c++ sources.
19:18:15 <piso> slime-for-j does that now :)
19:18:44 *kpreid* suggests that armedbear.org ought to at least link to xcl
19:18:44 <tcr> So how do you create the source locations while compiling the c++ sources?
19:18:47 <kpreid> er, to abcl
19:18:57 <ole4> what is so special about that xcl/abcl thing?
19:19:26 <tcr> ole4: Nothing special, their plattform is just peculiar for Lisp implementations
19:20:10 <piso> tcr: the C++ sources contain tag tokens in comments
19:20:22 ferada [n=user@e179235129.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp
19:20:37 <piso> / ### cons
19:20:38 rwiker [n=rwiker@73.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp
19:20:53 <piso> /// ### cons
19:21:04 <piso> one more try: /// ### cons
19:21:08 <tcr> Ah now I get the reason for that in the abcl sources!
19:21:19 <piso> wow, there's no way to get exactly two slashes in xchat
19:21:19 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
19:21:19 <mathrick> you could also use macrology
19:21:31 <mathrick> // foo
19:21:35 <mathrick> sure there is
19:21:41 <dacrawford> \/\/ bar
19:21:43 <mathrick> at least it's two slashes for me
19:21:56 <dacrawford> // baz
19:21:58 <piso> \/\/ ### cons
19:22:10 <mathrick> piso: nah, you say /// ### cons
19:22:16 <dacrawford> just    // foo   works for me
19:22:17 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
19:22:22 <mathrick> one / escapes the following /
19:22:30 <mathrick> everything else is literal then
19:22:31 <lisppaste> tmh pasted "Format Foo" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86659
19:22:43 <piso> mathrick: yeah, so you'd need 4 to get 2, but that doesn' t work for me
19:22:54 <mathrick> piso: no, you need 3
19:23:08 <piso> trying 3: /// ### cons
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19:23:09 <dacrawford> did '// baz'  look right above?  that was only 2 /  for me
19:23:12 <mathrick> only one escape
19:23:13 <tcr> piso: That's kind of a hack, though. Do you use something like new Primitive in XCL, too?
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19:23:31 <mathrick> piso: heh, that's only the case at the beginning of the line
19:23:37 <piso> tcr: no, you don't need that in C++
19:23:41 <dacrawford> maybe it depends on your client, I'm in erc
19:23:57 <mathrick> might be
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19:24:17 <mathrick> dacrawford: how do you make it produce one literal / at the beginning of line then?
19:24:17 <ole4> //
19:24:22 <dacrawford> /
19:24:36 <dacrawford> /   foo
19:24:53 <dacrawford> ah '/bar' did unknown command'
19:24:55 <mathrick> in xchat it's simple, use one extra / to escape a /command
19:25:00 <dacrawford> //bar
19:25:08 <piso> tcr: lots of hacks are still needed to set up the connection between symbols and their functions, however
19:25:12 <dacrawford> / baz
19:25:30 <dacrawford> #\/bar
19:25:30 <stassats`> i thought Lisp had lots of parenthesis, not slashes
19:25:46 <mathrick> not if you write it in C++!
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19:26:25 <tcr> piso: I guess so. In case of ABCL, I thought of using the cpp to introduce a DEFUN macro which expands to new Primitive and adds __FILE__, and __LINE__ as last arguments
19:26:30 <mathrick> I've actually seem someone do a mix of macros and templates to make something like Lisp and then claim it was a good way to do it
19:26:43 <MrSmiley909> What is the proper way to execute two commands in one block?
19:26:49 <mathrick> MrSmiley909: PROGN
19:26:58 <Fade> put a space before the /
19:27:00 <piso> tcr: using cpp on Java source is cheating!
19:27:04 <tcr> MrSmiley909: Your terminology is way off. What ressource do you use to learn Lisp from?
19:27:57 <MrSmiley909> tcr: I'm learning it today. Kinda just googling things.
19:28:09 <tcr> piso: You could get at the same information at runtime by Thread.getStackTrace(), but you can't abstract it away :)
19:28:17 <tcr> minion: tell MrSmiley909 about pcl
19:28:17 <dacrawford> (erc-cmd-QUOTE "/bar")
19:28:18 <minion> MrSmiley909: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
19:28:18 <stassats`> minion: tell MrSmiley909 about PCL
19:28:40 <tcr> MrSmiley909: Use that one.
19:28:41 <DeusExPikachu> successful lisp seems to be good too
19:28:50 <ole4> what about winston and horn?
19:28:50 <dmiles> piso: *nod* what is odd is the ASNI-TESTS take 70% longer in compiled mode
19:28:58 <DeusExPikachu> http://www.psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/contents.html "Successful Lisp"
19:29:02 <dacrawford> I like the that-dead-sexy-book minion keyword better
19:29:10 <ole4> i hread the thrid edition uses ansi
19:29:26 <dmiles> piso: (load "doit.lsp") vs (load "compileit.lsp")
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19:29:33 <MrSmiley909> Thanks!
19:29:36 <tcr> ole4: that book is out of fashion for over a decade
19:29:36 seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp
19:29:41 <DeusExPikachu> MrSmiley909, are you from the Inland Empire, just curious because of the 909
19:29:59 <piso> tcr: xcl's startup code launches a thread that processes the C++ source files and generates a tags file from them, which is used by ED (and slime-for-j)
19:30:02 <dmiles> but i should gfind a way to shave off the time invlved in compolking
19:30:13 <MrSmiley909> DeusExPikachu: Nope
19:30:22 <tcr> piso: Well, I actually did once start at writing an ETAGS parser in CL; for ECL.
19:30:34 <dacrawford> piso: on every startup?
19:30:54 <piso> dacrawford: yeah, on every startup, but it's a separate thread, so it doesn' t really slow things down much
19:31:30 <stassats`> if you have more than one core
19:31:32 <piso> dmiles: abcl's compiler is pretty slow
19:32:08 <piso> stassats`: I got nothin' but cores here :)
19:32:24 <mathrick> tcr: what do you mean by "can't abstract it away"?
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19:33:18 <tcr> mathrick: You can't make it create that information implicitly
19:33:35 <tcr> piso: Uh, is there no way to involve the cpp?
19:34:03 <ehu`> piso: I found why you're using a variable for local functions in ABCL: you get recursiveness issues if you don't, because 2 functions can't refer recursively, it seems.
19:34:13 <piso> tcr: I don't know; the CL code to generate the tags file is trivial, so I never looked any further
19:34:31 <piso> ehu`: right
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19:35:05 <tcr> piso: and you probably wrote a parser for TAGS in Java for J years ago :)
19:35:06 <dacrawford> just reading about objc's thread-local gc.  it has new objects assumed thread local and move out into the general set when necessary, then the thread-gcs gc only their local objects w/o having to do sync with other threads
19:35:12 <mathrick> tcr: wouldn't it be implicit in the implementation of M-.?
19:35:38 <macdice> hi, i have a question about code style: if you have a pair of equivalent functions, one of which takes a list of values as a single argument, and other of which takes them as a &rest parameter, is there any convention for naming the two functions?
19:35:39 <piso> tcr: j builds tag files for all source files on the fly as they are modified in the editor (using a separate thread, of course)
19:36:17 <tcr> mathrick: M-. merely asks the implementation
19:36:41 <stassats`> macdice: why do you need a pair of such functions?
19:36:48 <piso> tcr: (I'm not sure that j's tags files are in the official tag file format, though)
19:36:50 <mathrick> tcr: sure, and xcl:find-source or whatever would do it, no?
19:37:17 <tcr> mathrick: The discussion is about how to implement that for non-lisp internal functions
19:37:27 <tcr> how to conveniently register the source information
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19:37:40 <mathrick> well, then I'd do it with CPP
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19:38:19 <mathrick> make a DEFUN macro that registers the __FILE__ and __LINE__, then declares the actual function
19:38:24 <macdice> stassats, well i find myself wanting to use certain functions in both ways quite often, and get sick of writing 'apply ...' to call a &rest-style function when i have a list, so i wanted to support bother styles explicitly, but i wondered if there was an established convention for naming such a pair of functions
19:38:35 <macdice> s/bother/both/
19:39:01 <tcr> piso: I don't think there's an official format. It's just what etags / emacs does. It's sufficiently described in its wikipedia article.
19:39:02 <stassats`> well, you can call non-rest functions with (function (list args))
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19:39:25 <tcr> piso: OTOH:
19:39:36 <mathrick> stassats`: more like (function args)
19:39:56 <stassats`> mathrick: no
19:40:08 <dacrawford> the (list ) is when args is    (func (list a1 a2 a3 ...))
19:40:09 <mathrick> howso? ARGS is already a list
19:40:12 <tcr> piso: If you process the source files at startup, there's no need to create a separate TAGS file, though. Just save off the filename/line number in some hash-table.
19:40:24 <stassats`> mathrick: who said that? see what dacrawford said
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19:41:29 <mathrick> stassats`: you have &rest and non-&rest functions. The non-&rest variant takes a list. Thus to call it from the &rest version, you want to say (defun foo (&rest args) (foo-list args))
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19:42:09 <mathrick> (foo-list (list args)) is incorrect, as it will pack it into one extra level of listiness
19:42:15 <tcr> macdice: Seems a bit bogus that you end up doing that so often.
19:42:30 <stassats`> mathrick: no, you misunderstood
19:42:36 <dacrawford> mathrick:  but when you are talking about direct calls, not the impl of foo
19:42:46 <mathrick> ah
19:42:47 <stassats`> mathrick: again, what dacrawford said
19:42:48 <mathrick> then yes
19:42:57 <piso> tcr: that's a good point. I think I might have originally written out the file for j's use, but I'm not sure j actually uses it any more.
19:43:20 <piso> It's been a long time since I've revisited that code.
19:43:22 <dacrawford> mathrick: it was overloading on args-the-variable and args-the-specification-name
19:43:37 <tcr> piso: If you do the slime-stream stuff, perhaps it's time to revisit it? :)
19:43:43 <mathrick> dacrawford: yeah
19:43:50 <piso> tcr: yeah, I'll take another look
19:44:09 <tcr> piso: Cool.
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19:44:32 <tcr> Your holidays don't include a flight to hamburg (eclm), do they?
19:44:42 <piso> no, just a drive to Las Vegas :)
19:45:03 <piso> hotel rooms are free this time of year
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19:45:29 <tcr> huh, didn't know that
19:45:34 <jcowan> If I wish to compile a file that requires some nonstandard readtable syntax, does it suffice to say (eval-when :compile-toplevel (progn (setq *readtable* (copy-readtable *readtable*)) <forms to mutate the readtable>)) ?
19:45:35 <minion> jcowan, memo from Riastradh: After reviewing the R5RS and the R6RS, QUOTIENT and REMAINDER correspond with the TRUNCATE prefix, ? and MODULO correspond with the FLOOR prefix, DIV and MOD correspond with the EUCLIDEAN prefix, and I have never before seen DIV0 and MOD0.  The CEILING prefix is not represented.
19:45:35 <minion> jcowan, memo from Riastradh: Moreover, now that I have my own mnemonics for these division operations, I have rendered myself thoroughly unable to remember what the mnemonically void names QUOTIENT ? DIV DIV0 and REMAINDER MODULO MOD MOD0 mean.
19:45:35 <minion> jcowan, memo from Riastradh: Here is a more complete, but still brief, summary of division operators, nicely laid out with easy definitions and important properties exhibited by the different operations: <http://people.csail.mit.edu/riastradh/tmp/division.txt>.
19:45:37 <minion> jcowan, memo from eli: No, there is no vendor lock-in with PLT, because "PLT" != "Scheme", "PLT Scheme" != "Scheme", and that's true for any other Scheme implementation since Scheme is undefined enough compared to CL, to the point that a CLer will claim that *any* implementation is a lock-in.
19:45:41 <macdice> tcr: well maybe it's bogus.  it's for a database interface, and i find myself wanting to write (execute db "INSERT ...blah... VALUES ($1, $2)" foo bar) in some places, but (execute-list db "INSERT ...blah... VALUES ($1, $2)" (something-that-generates-a-list-of-values-or-whatever)) quite often too
19:45:43 <stassats`> whoosh
19:45:51 <piso> tcr: well, not all hotel rooms...
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19:46:07 <dacrawford> minion about to get flood blocked lol
19:46:09 <jcowan> Sorry about all that.
19:46:30 <jcowan> It so happens that I didn't say anything on #scheme yet, and minion isn't smart enough to remember the channel.
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19:47:09 <tcr> jcowan: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/named-readtables.html
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19:48:56 <tcr> jcowan: Uh unfortunately, I yesterday broke the version in the darcs repository. I'll fix it tomorrow. But yeah, named-readtables is basically some sugar on top of what you wrote above.
19:49:37 <dacrawford> tcr: when you break something, you break it _good_  lol
19:49:50 <jcowan> It's a nice API design.
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19:51:06 <jcowan> Come to think of it, you can drop the PROGN.
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19:52:41 <felideon> any reason why I can/ucw/etc/start.lisp?
19:52:47 <felideon> I can't find*
19:52:56 <felideon> i installed it with clbuild
19:52:57 <tcr> jcowan: just :compile-toplevel is not enough, you need :execute, too. I'm not sure about :load-toplevel; my in-readtable does include it, too. I guess I thought about it and came to the conclusion that it's necessary.
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19:53:35 <jcowan> I thought I would only need :execute to make the syntax available at run time, which I don't want -- it's just a hack to compile the (somewhat) non-CL file.
19:54:22 <stassats`> what if you'd want to LOAD it?
19:54:26 <tcr> jcowan: :EXECUTE is important for when you LOAD a .lisp file without having compile-filed it before
19:54:38 *jcowan* nods.
19:54:43 <jcowan> Yeah, that would be the general case.
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19:55:01 <mathrick> doesn't LOAD also trigger :LOAD-TOPLEVEL?
19:55:10 <tcr> No
19:55:11 <stassats`> on fasls
19:55:32 <tcr> jcowan: You may need :load-toplevel for something like (defvar *foo* (get-macro-char #\())
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19:57:37 <tcr> dacrawford: I'm totally to blame. A test suite is on my todo. I decided to release it as 0.9 without test suite.
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20:06:55 <redline6561> tcr:Yesterday I asked about suppressing compiler output with script and you suggested posting to the ML. It's on sbcl-help and the final code was posted at http://redlinernotes.com/sbcl/ if you're curious.
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20:09:38 <tcr> redline6561: instead of make-string-output-stream use (make-broadcast-stream), that's the CL idiom for /dev/null
20:10:17 <redline6561> tcr: Awesome! Thanks. :)
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20:11:05 <tcr> and you should still probably wrap the (let (...) (require)) in an (:eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) ...)
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20:12:10 <redline6561> tcr: The only other thing that bugs me a little is that the only non-portable parts are the "script hacks". Except for maybe changing requires to (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op ...)
20:12:17 <redline6561> tcr: Oh, well.
20:12:26 <redline6561> tcr: Why's that?
20:13:38 <stassats`> otherwise it will fail if compiled
20:14:04 <redline6561> stassats`: Aha.
20:14:27 <tcr> stassats`: I'm not sure about that; afacs, he doesn't use any explicit package qualified, but :uses the packages
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20:15:03 <redline6561> tcr: But wrap it anyway just in case?
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20:16:08 <stassats`> tcr: can fail too
20:17:25 <redline6561> stassats`: Of course, it'll fail regardless because of the shebang line if I try to compile it...I suppose there's no way to sanely wrap that?
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20:25:46 <tcr> dacrawford: I think I'll get rid of the conditionals, just as your patch does.
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20:26:36 <tcr> People must be cautious wrt the order of merging anyway. If they want maximum control, they should use (:SYNTAX-FROM).
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20:32:54 <redline6561> tcr: Thanks again for the help yesterday. Later.
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20:38:08 <tmh> Does someone know of an extended version of FORMAT with added directives?
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20:38:56 <stassats`> clhs 22.3.5.4
20:38:57 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ced.htm
20:39:45 <tmh> stassats`: Yes, that might do the trick. Thanks.
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20:54:07 <tmh> Bah, no joy.
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20:56:11 <tcr> What do you want exactly?
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20:57:57 <tmh> Something like (delimit destination delimiter "Commas~!~{~!~A~}~%" list-of-stuff) where ~! is replaced by the delimiter.
20:58:17 <tmh> ~! is just for the example, although I'm thinking of using it as the directive.
20:59:14 <tmh> That's actually the signature for the function I'm going to write. I was initially trying to do it with FORMAT directives, but I think it will work better to write a wrapper function.
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21:03:51 <tcr> You probably forgot a ~^ in that format string
21:04:39 <tcr> in haskell's pretty-printing library such a function is called `punctuate' (for adding the delimeter at the end), and `accentuate' (for adding the delimeter at the beginning)
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21:06:01 <tmh> tcr: I don't see where I forgot the ~^
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21:07:57 <tcr> You can write a function which you could call by ~';/DELIMIT/, remember that you have to quote character parameters with a quote character in format strings
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21:08:26 <tcr> (defun delimit (stream list &optional colon? at-sign? delimiter) ...)
21:09:57 <tmh> Ok, I didn't realize that I could pass anything beyond the 4 arguments to a function call in the control string.
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21:10:53 <tmh> But, that still doesn't solve my problem, the delimiter is specified in the control string, I want it to be an argument.
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21:11:05 <stassats`> how would it be different from just putting ;?
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21:11:38 <stassats`> you could do V, but the problem is with arguments inside ~{~}
21:11:53 <tmh> I was playing with that -> (format t "~?~%" (concatenate 'string "~{" '(#\,) "~A~}") '((1 2 3 4 5)))
21:12:17 <tmh> Which could be (format t "~?~%" (concatenate 'string "~{" (list delimiter) "~A~}") '((1 2 3 4 5)))
21:13:44 <tmh> stassats`: That's exactly the problem and why I think I need a wrapper function to generate the control string.
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21:15:39 <laynor> is there a way to ask the lisp environment if a variable is special?
21:15:54 <stassats`> cltl2:variable-information
21:15:54 <specbot> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node102.html
21:15:56 <tcr> tmh: so use ~v/DELIM/
21:16:34 <laynor> stassats`: great, thanks :)
21:16:56 <stassats`> the next question would be: "where to get cltl2?"
21:17:26 <stassats`> sbcl has variable-information function in sb-cltl2 contrib, CCL has it in the CCL package
21:17:41 <laynor> ^^
21:17:53 <stassats`> so, it's not standard
21:19:05 <laynor> stassats`: no problem for that, I'm just exploring the semantics of the language :)
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21:20:14 <tcr> laynor: the actual ANSI standard which specifies the language ANSI Common Lisp does not include variable-information
21:20:22 <jcowan> But it was in CLtL2?
21:20:28 <stassats`> it was
21:20:31 <tcr> laynor: So you're actually exploring the semantics of a particular implementation
21:21:15 <stassats`> well, special variables, on other hand, are part of ANSI CL
21:21:22 <stassats`> i think, laynor is exploring them
21:21:32 <laynor> stassats` is right :)
21:21:45 <laynor> and the global environment too
21:21:48 <tcr> Yeah stupid me for not looking at the context
21:22:05 <tmh> tcr: I'm particularly dense today, but I can't find ~v/name/ in any documentation.
21:22:17 <stassats`> clhs ~v
21:22:17 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm
21:22:45 <tcr> tmh: 22.3, ninth paragraph
21:23:21 <stassats`> but it still won't help with ~{
21:24:15 <tcr> He should replace the ~{~} by a call to ~v/FOO::DELIM/
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21:28:44 <laynor> by the way, let and friends are the only way to define bindings in a lexical environment right? is there anything like a (defsomething a b) that operates on the inner environment? ex. (progn (let () (defsomething a 10)) a) <- a unbound
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21:29:58 <stassats`> no, there isn't such thing
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21:31:34 <laynor> stassats`: it would make semantics kind of strange I think.
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21:32:23 <laynor> every environment would behave kind of like the global environment
21:32:50 <stassats`> well, i don't think semantics would be different, just syntax
21:33:22 <michaelw> laynor: scheme's define works like this
21:33:45 <stassats`> only in the beginning of the variable introducing forms
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21:34:23 <stassats`> or rather environment introducing
21:35:24 <jcowan> Any use of non-top-level DEFINE can be explained in terms of FLET, or rather FLET*.
21:35:44 <Krystof> I doubt it
21:35:47 <laynor> michaelw: i'm not a scheme hacker, but I was trying half an hour ago, and it seems define forms must all be at the top of the let form, and can't happen in the middle
21:36:04 <Krystof> (because the top-level defines still have their own bindings in scope, don't they?  They can self-recurse)
21:36:19 <stassats`> r5rs define
21:36:19 <specbot> http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-8.html#%_idx_190
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21:36:51 <michaelw> doesn't SICP discuss this?
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21:37:16 <stassats`> "Definitions may occur at the beginning of a <body> (that is, the body of a lambda, let, let*, letrec, let-syntax, or letrec-syntax expression or that of a definition of an appropriate form)."
21:38:17 <jcowan> laynor: Quite right.
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21:38:43 <jcowan> Krystof: Right, I should have said LABELS, except not quite.
21:40:17 <jcowan> In Scheme, at least, letrec right-sides can be evaluated in any order, whereas letrec* right-sides must be evaluated in LTR order.
21:40:25 <jcowan> So I guess that is LABELS at that.
21:41:16 <jcowan> letrec* ((a ...) (b ...)) ...) is (letrec ((a ...)) (letrec ((b ...)) ...), as similarly for LET* vs LET.
21:42:07 <jcowan> So in a letrec you can refer to the other names being bound, but you cannot invoke them; in a letrec* you can.
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21:43:08 <laynor> it's quite different still..(assuming lisp1) (let () (def f (lambda (x) (+ x a))) (print "gianni") (def a 5) (f 5)) what should it do? a proper closure should say a is undefined, but that would mean enclosing an actual copy of the enviornment instead of using a reference to it.. mhm
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21:43:18 <stassats`> is letrec* part of r6rs?
21:43:41 <Demosthenex> ok, so i'm stuck. this is architectural... given a file format that has changed repeatedly (20 versions), but successive formats only ADD new information, and multiple formats that have to be coordinated together as a set by version, should i top-down create an object to model that revision and make it go read the data it needs, or bottom up read all files and do event driven parsing into objects? this is in terms of maintenance and long t
21:43:47 <jcowan> stassats`: It is.
21:44:05 <ignotus> hi, I get the following error from cffi: "The value :POINTER is not of type (SIGNED-BYTE 32)." why is that?  I try to call a verronazo generated function, it has :pointer declared as return type
21:44:09 <stassats`> because r5rs doesn't have it
21:44:30 <jcowan> R5RS letrec is ambiguous between R6RS letrec and R6RS letrec*.
21:44:38 <jcowan> Implementations may do either.
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21:47:19 <jcowan> laynor: The behavior is undefined by R5RS, because you have used DEFINE in an invalid place.
21:47:45 <laynor> jcowan: yeah, I'm not talking about scheme indeed :)
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21:48:25 <laynor> jcowan: I'm implementing a lisp interpreter to explore lisp's semantics and meanwhile refresh C++ for a technical test
21:48:27 <pkhuong> jcowan: your translation above doesn't reflect the semantics of letrec*.
21:49:30 <jcowan> pkhuong: You're right, it doesn't.  My grasp of the subject is feeble, I confess.
21:50:02 <jcowan> laynor: I tried 4 schemes, and got one that treats the stray DEFINE as top-level, one that treats it as local, and two more that report syntax errors.
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21:50:12 <jcowan> s/schemes/Schemes
21:50:54 <laynor> jcowan: I just have one scheme implementation installed :)
21:51:19 <laynor> plt, and I only tried the r5rs language
21:51:58 <pkhuong> letrec* basically ensures that the only way to implement the full semantics is through assignment (great for static analyses and compilation).
21:52:15 <ignotus> if I have &rest in a foreign functions arglist, how am I supposed to provide the parameters when calling that function?  I mean, simply (foo 1 2 3) can't be good because the ffi can't know the types of the parameters, hmm
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22:06:34 <OmniMancer> how different is SBCL from CMUCL?
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22:08:27 <stassats`> in what units do you measure difference?
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22:08:41 <OmniMancer> what differences does it have
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22:09:43 <stassats`> SBCL is sanely bootstrappable
22:10:00 <OmniMancer> and CMUCL?
22:10:09 <stassats`> insanely
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22:10:20 <stassats`> SBCL has native threads, and so on.
22:10:41 <OmniMancer> so on?
22:11:02 <stassats`> and so on, yes
22:11:04 <jcowan> And many others which no one can be bothered to mention.
22:11:18 <stassats`> http://common-lisp.net/~dlw/LispSurvey.html
22:11:20 <jcowan> What is more, changes are usually not ported from one to the other.
22:11:36 *jcowan* adds this to his Canonical List of Permanent Open Source Forks
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22:13:41 <antifuchs> OmniMancer: the sbcl project started 10 years ago and has gotten a lot of developer attention. threads, unicode, OS/hardware platforms and many other things have been added, and few of these changes have made the jump back to cmucl
22:13:56 <antifuchs> mostly because there are so few people taking care of cmucl these days
22:14:13 <OmniMancer> ah
22:14:24 <Krystof> cmucl has some development lines that sbcl hasn't followed, too
22:14:25 <antifuchs> and also because a 10-year development history following a huge refactoring of the source code tends to leave a few incompatibilities (:
22:14:27 <Krystof> doubledouble floats
22:14:48 <jcowan> Is cmucl in its death throes?
22:14:50 <Krystof> no
22:14:59 <jcowan> What about GNU CL?
22:15:02 <Krystof> also no
22:15:15 <OmniMancer> they never quite die :P
22:15:39 *Krystof* wins: working OUTPUT-REPLACEMENT and INPUT-REPLACEMENT restarts for fd-stream decoding errors
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22:17:26 <fe[nl]ix> Krystof: better just name both replace-char or something similar, since those two conditions are exclusive
22:18:09 <Krystof> they are exclusive for a single operation but not for a sequence of stream operations
22:18:18 <Krystof> streams can be bidirectional
22:18:28 <OmniMancer> what is the minimum specs needed for SBCL to run?
22:18:54 <Krystof> also, I say "working" and "wins" but of course this is fd-streams we're talking about
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22:19:14 <pkhuong> Assuming x86, 486 class and ~128-256 MB RAM, I guess?
22:19:26 <OmniMancer> not x86?
22:19:52 <Krystof> I've run sbcl on a mid-90s parisc with 32MB RAM
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22:20:00 <Krystof> admittedly, I wouldn't want to do that again
22:20:08 <OmniMancer> would it be infeasible to attempt to turn SBCL into a cross compiler?
22:20:14 <Krystof> no
22:20:29 <pkhuong> OmniMancer: it already is, to bootstrap itself.
22:20:50 <OmniMancer> would it be infeasible to attempt to get it to run on something with 4kbytes of ram?
22:20:52 <pkhuong> I've built on an E4500, for an even less useful data point.
22:20:53 <fe[nl]ix> Krystof: in a sequence of stream ops, you can distinguish those two cases by signaling different error conditions
22:20:57 <pkhuong> OmniMancer: yes.
22:20:58 <stassats`> OmniMancer: yes
22:21:25 <Krystof> fe[nl]ix: that's true, but why do you then want the same-named restart?
22:21:26 <pkhuong> I don't think you can even fit all the symbols in CL inside 4 KB.
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22:21:46 <OmniMancer> you would need to dispense with certain pleasantries
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22:21:47 <antifuchs> pkhuong: in a compressed trie, maybe?
22:22:04 <OmniMancer> possibly even dispense with stuff like eval...
22:22:15 <antifuchs> the longer names are the first to go
22:22:17 <Krystof> ILTWYS"possibly"
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22:22:24 <antifuchs> so no update-instance-for-redefined-class
22:22:34 *jcowan* finally realizes that "sudo apt-get install gcl" does not install GCL.
22:22:49 <OmniMancer> has there ever been a lisp compiler written in forth?
22:23:10 <fe[nl]ix> Krystof: just my usual past-midnight bikeshedding :D
22:24:49 <pkhuong> antifuchs: that'd be quite the compression factor. 11.3k chars
22:25:15 <OmniMancer> turn all symbols into addresses?
22:25:50 <antifuchs> pkhuong: ok, that's nice.
22:26:02 <antifuchs> 1% of the RAM available in my first PC (:
22:27:22 <antifuchs> OmniMancer: I think without a major miracle, no full (or even reduced) CL will fit into memory this small. /maybe/ an embeddable scheme will
22:27:34 <Krystof> pkhuong: um, isn't that easy?  You only need 5 bits per character for CL symbol names :-)
22:27:47 <OmniMancer> why?
22:28:29 <antifuchs> Krystof: careful, once you get 5-bit characters, memory vendors may start adjusting their scale (-:
22:29:22 <pkhuong> Krystof: that's still a bit more than 4KB ;) With a compressed trie, you need 12 bits for the linkage, and 5 for the character. 17 bits * 978 symbols is ~2KB, and that's a pretty generous lower bound.
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22:29:40 <pjb> I thought that there was 96 characters in BASE-CHARACTER...
22:29:57 <antifuchs> OmniMancer: there are 978 symbols in CL. how large are your addresses?
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22:30:26 <pjb> That said you can always define a subset of CL.
22:30:29 <pkhuong> OmniMancer: CL was never designed to run on small systems. Even in the 80s, it only ran on relatively expensive workstations.
22:30:42 <pkhuong> pjb: probably simpler to define a superset of r4rs.
22:30:50 <antifuchs> you can run it on your relatively expensive phone nowadays
22:30:50 <michaelw> bzip2 manages 4202 bytes
22:31:01 <antifuchs> but no word yet on inexpensive ones (:
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22:31:08 <pjb> pkhuong: the point of defining a subset, is that you can easily use CL implementations as development environment.
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22:31:32 <Krystof> anyway, does anyone other than me care about these nifty fd-streams restarts, or is everyone using tower-of-babel stream layers these days?
22:31:50 <antifuchs> pjb: STANDARD-CHAR is a set of 96 chars
22:31:55 <pkhuong> Krystof: I only do ASCII IO (:
22:31:59 <antifuchs> Krystof: nope, that's pretty neat
22:32:26 <pjb> antifuchs: right, I mixed it with base-character. Thanks.
22:32:51 <OmniMancer> ofcourse the 4k of ram type things won't have keyboards attached :P
22:33:06 <OmniMancer> so actual development things on them is kinda pointless
22:33:30 <pjb> My first computer had a keyboard and only 1K of RAM.
22:33:43 <pjb> Was it pointless?
22:33:49 <antifuchs> OmniMancer: indeed. so why did you want a language that's extremely well-suited for interactive development again? (:
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22:34:01 <OmniMancer> I am not talking about first computers
22:34:07 <pkhuong> pjb: with a superset, you can easily use a scheme implementation as a development environment. I expect most the extensions will be for IO or convenience definitions. Worked well for PICOBIT.
22:34:07 <pjb> ;-)
22:34:07 <OmniMancer> because is a nice language...
22:34:08 <michaelw> OmniMancer: Rees was running Scheme on small robots, with interactive development
22:34:23 <antifuchs> right.
22:34:38 <pjb> pkhuong: but a superset requires more work to implement than a subset.
22:34:54 <OmniMancer> scheme is probably better for microcontrollers then
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22:35:25 <michaelw> also, you need just a couple of forth words to get an interactive development environment over a serial line
22:36:06 <OmniMancer> (eq :forth :common-lisp) => nil
22:36:25 <OmniMancer> (equalp forth common-lisp) => nil
22:36:50 <pjb> pkhuong: (defpackage :subset (:use)  (:import-from :cl :car :cdr :cons :lambda :cond :null :nil)) is all you have to write to get a subset... (in-package :subset) #|have fun|#
22:37:02 *jcowan* builds gcl from source
22:37:21 <pkhuong> pjb: a subset requires more thinking than a superset to get things right. The work for the superset will have to be done for actual deployment anyway, and using a superset completely eliminates the possibility of using (directly or indirectly) a construct that isn't supported.
22:38:03 <jcowan> Pfui.  It won't even compile.
22:38:07 <OmniMancer> of course streams and file IO are not particularly useful on something with no filesystem
22:39:00 <Krystof> antifuchs: if I've done things right, http://common-lisp.net/~crhodes/tmp/sbcl contains a git repository with an external-formats branch
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22:39:16 <Krystof> night night
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22:39:35 <antifuchs> you need to run git-update-server-info (:
22:39:49 <Krystof> no, I just did that
22:40:02 <antifuchs> maybe my git is too old
22:40:08 <antifuchs> will check out tomorrow
22:40:13 <antifuchs> good night (:
22:40:34 <fe[nl]ix> Krystof: put it into public_html/git/
22:41:14 <michaelw> Krystof: I get the same update-server-info error
22:42:23 <OmniMancer> how much is needed for a scheme?
22:42:51 <OmniMancer> and is it bad to want to talk about scheme in the #lisp channel?
22:43:11 <stassats`> there is #scheme
22:43:59 <OmniMancer> why does scheme have the requirement of tail call optimisation?
22:45:17 <stassats`> that's a #scheme question
22:45:18 <pkhuong> OmniMancer: it's much friendlier to tree shaking (since it doesn't have as much standardised support for introspection and interactive development) and doesn't include heavy stuff like CLOS or TYPEP. I've seen small programs compile down to a couple dozen bytes of bytecode + a 1-2K runtime.
22:46:40 <OmniMancer> why the tail call opt requirement though?
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22:48:07 <jcowan> OmniMancer: to answer you, because tail calls are a fundamental part of the language semantics (LAMBDA = RENAME + GOTO) and not an optimization.
22:49:03 <OmniMancer> does anyone have any idea what the kitten of death quote thing on the windows sbcl?
22:50:02 <pkhuong> OmniMancer: you're missing a verb. I'll assume that verb is "means". The win32 port is still fairly unstable/incomplete in some corners.
22:50:22 <OmniMancer> yes it was means
22:50:25 <OmniMancer> sorry
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22:51:47 <thijso> Just to throw it out there: I've started work on an api for sphinx search for CL, repo here: http://github.com/thijs/cl-sphinx-search/
22:52:28 <thijso> still very early, and a rather 1-on-1 port of the perl api from cpan. Still missing a lot of functionality, but at least I got some results out of it with my trivial test database...
22:52:37 <OmniMancer> is there any readable tiny scheme thing that I could read to learn from?
22:52:50 <thijso> and now, off to bed
22:53:19 <michaelw> OmniMancer: #scheme might know this better
22:53:39 <jcowan> OmniMancer: Teach Yourself Scheme In Fixnum Days is quite good: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/t-y-scheme/t-y-scheme.html
22:54:25 <michaelw> OmniMancer: foof's chibi-scheme is pretty clean (but also young)
22:54:38 <michaelw> gah, wrong window
22:55:22 <antifuchs> thijso: nice! sphinx = <3.
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23:00:20 <OmniMancer> fixnums can get pretty big...
23:00:56 <OmniMancer> also scheme is usually the lisp used as an embedded scripting engine?
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23:04:32 <michaelw> OmniMancer: (expt 2 60) is not that big any more... :)
23:05:12 <OmniMancer> but (expt 2 60) days is a loooong time...
23:05:41 <michaelw> recently, we had to introduce bignums to count states in a C-based tool, ULL was overflowing :)
23:05:59 <OmniMancer> lol
23:06:22 <myrkraverk> is there a group theory package I can use in CL?
23:06:28 <jcowan> Greenspun's Tenth Law rulez
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23:21:19 <jcowan> Or from the government employees you don't know.
23:21:50 <sellout> I don't think I've ever seen a for loop like this in CL before: (do ((i 0 (+ i 1)) (n (length some-list)) p) ((= i n)) (setq p (nth i some-list)) ...)
23:23:31 <stassats`> ugh
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23:25:51 <pkhuong> sellout: wtf?
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23:26:56 <sellout> pkhuong: I dunno, man. It's crazy. I only found it because it had a bug that led to an infinite loop if a particular branch was taken.
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23:27:39 <stassats`> no wonder it had a bug
23:43:16 <slash_> Is there something like a conditional LET in LISP?
23:43:59 <stassats`> no
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23:44:38 <slash_> :/
23:45:16 <lnostdal> what's a conditional let?
23:45:37 <lnostdal> IF-LET and similar macros are common, but you might mean something else
23:46:34 <slash_> Well i mean something like (let ((k (<list of expressions, the first one which evaluates to true is assigned to k>))
23:46:53 <pkhuong> slash_: that's called OR.
23:46:53 <lnostdal> OR?
23:46:54 <stassats`> clhs or
23:46:55 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_or.htm
23:47:02 <OmniMancer> yea
23:47:32 <lnostdal> (let ((k (or (maybe-true) (also-maybe-true))) ..)
23:47:34 <OmniMancer> (let (k (or thing1 thing2 thing3 thing4 ...)) body :D)
23:47:41 <slash_> doh'
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