00:00:00 how are you drewc? 00:00:09 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 00:01:01 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:02 madnificent: can't complain i suppose... though i'm obsessed with refreshing my mail waiting for Xach to send me ... something i don't know what :) 00:01:12 minion: unit-conversion? 00:01:13 unit-conversion: units.lsp - written by Gordon S. http://www.cliki.net/unit-conversion 00:01:32 drewc: do you have any idea what it's about? 00:01:42 *madnificent* looks in cliki 00:01:44 gnus refreshes my mail for me 00:01:57 -!- seangrove [n=user@adsl-69-225-113-166.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:02:19 stassats`: not fast enough! :) 00:02:27 *drewc* uses wanderlust actually... 00:02:34 LoL 00:02:55 though i usually just use the gmail web interface... i have bookmarks to emails integrated with org-mode etc. 00:03:12 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:05:59 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-15-148.dip.osnanet.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 00:06:36 drewc: I really wonder what your org-mode customization looks like 00:07:15 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:07:55 madnificent: almost entirely cribbed from http://doc.norang.ca/org-mode.html 00:08:30 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:49 i have a .org for every client i work for, and i use it monthly to generate status reports and track my billable hours etc. 00:09:03 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 00:09:33 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:15 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-1-48.w90-59.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:10:30 death note in org-mode? 00:10:52 *p_l* is constantly planning on switching completely to Emacs for email etc but he still lacks a special IP stack :> 00:10:58 stassats`: lol 00:11:01 Meh, compiling McCLIM with safety 3 is painful due to "unable to use optimized accessors in safe code" warnings. 00:11:22 drewc: if only I could keep my concentration, I would use it for time-tracking too 00:11:27 deepfire: set asdf:*compile-file-failure-behaviour* to :warn 00:11:51 p_l: I don't like do to my mail in it 00:12:24 stassats`, thanks, a mental reference to this sits somewhere on the back on my mind, but never really close enough for reach.. 00:12:45 beanrc [n=rocketru@125.77.120.41] has joined #lisp 00:13:03 drewc: didn't you have an integration to use it within lisp source files too? 00:13:34 -!- beanrc [n=rocketru@125.77.120.41] has left #lisp 00:13:54 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:09 iwaki [n=hide@PPPa272.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:14:42 blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 00:14:56 -!- [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.95.40.15] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:15:54 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 00:16:15 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:16:18 madnificent: it's more like lisp source files are generated from org outlines. 00:16:41 i'm working on going the other way now... changing the generated file and having the changes go into the proper org-node 00:17:14 it could be an interesting way of development 00:19:29 i used to use an editor called 'leo' that supports this style of development. I found that i didn't need most if the features of leo for lisp programming, but i do miss having a tree view of the system that is completely independent of the organisation of the files. 00:20:01 most of the* 00:21:08 I've never seen it 00:21:35 emma pasted "an unexpected error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86401 00:21:47 if anyone would like to take a look at that lisppaste ^ 00:22:12 emma: last line of your function 00:22:37 doh! 00:22:41 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 00:22:52 error messages never lie! 00:22:54 :) 00:23:02 sometimes they mislead, but they never lie :) 00:23:13 emma: forgetting earmuffs is just one of those things... 00:23:41 indeed.. i've had a lot of variables with cold left ears in my time as well. 00:23:48 drewc, thanks btw, I really keep forgetting how much more useful slime is at debug 3. Found the problem in no time, indeed.. 00:24:10 debug 2 is better 00:24:12 Thanks, I will be on the look out for that kind of thing next time. 00:24:23 *deepfire* makes a stronger mental note 00:24:24 debug 3 doesn't do TCO, for example 00:24:27 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:24:48 stassats`: heh... neither do i :) 00:24:53 stassats`: is there a way to figure out when SBCL will do TCO? 00:25:24 describe-compiler-policy ? 00:25:45 *drewc* rarely writes recursive functions with proper tail calls as he finds iteration a lot simpler in 99% of the cases. 00:26:00 and supported by the standard! :) 00:26:09 well, tail calls are not only in recursive functions 00:26:10 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:26:41 true enough. 00:26:45 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 00:27:55 dalton [n=user5442@187.34.47.44] has joined #lisp 00:28:05 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:28:52 stassats`: I meant more like how to make sure that a function is written in such a way that TCO will actually kick in (and if there's a way to check whether it did or not) 00:29:09 DISASSEMBLE 00:29:36 oh. Of course. 00:29:40 thanks... 00:30:10 drewc: en route 00:30:54 (compile-file "/home/stas/foo.lisp" :trace-file "foo.trace") might be helpful too 00:31:07 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:31:43 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-uadsudpoeuiekhqy] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:32:39 -!- roninbv [n=roninbv@c-76-111-63-165.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:33:58 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 00:34:18 Xach: holy crap! 00:35:58 clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 00:36:58 htk_ [n=htk___@95.65.240.91] has joined #lisp 00:37:35 -!- dys` is now known as dys 00:42:25 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1CB2C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:42:47 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1CB2C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:59 coliv [n=Coliveir@c-69-248-128-195.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:53 does any ever use lisp as linux terminal language? 00:45:03 like as an alternative to bash? 00:46:06 emma: lisp is a little to verbose for a shell language, and has a disconnect with unix that makes it a little hard to do so, but yes, people have done so... there's a 'clisp as shell' article floating around the 'tubes somewhere. 00:46:20 interesting 00:46:30 kei__ [n=gueorgui@gmt.su] has joined #lisp 00:46:52 it's better to write lisp programs to automate tasks you do in the interactive shell 00:47:13 -!- merus [n=merus@pal-175-116.itap.purdue.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:50:03 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:41 -!- kei [n=gueorgui@gmt.su] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:52:16 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:53:15 emma: http://clisp.cons.org/clash.html 00:54:03 emma: lisp can be concise enough. You only need to define the primitive useful for a 'shell' DSL. See for example what is available in scsh. 00:54:48 i was just kind of curious about different ways people use lisp, im not really ready to use lisp as a shell. Im still learning ordinary linux! 00:54:49 emma: also, have a look at http://www.informatimago.com/linux/emacs-on-user-mode-linux.html ; the same could be done with a CL implementation. 00:55:23 To me it seems like maybe every language kind of has it's 'natural setting' . And im trying to see where is lisps natural setting. Or maybe we can find new natural settings. 00:55:41 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1CB2C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:55:52 zeroish [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 00:56:11 emma: well, it could be an interesting experiment to make a "lisp machine" distribution, using a linux kernel to boot a CL with all the CL libraries and tools we can find. An alternative would be to skip the linux kernel and use Movitz, but then we'd lack drivers... 00:56:28 drewc: sometimes i get stuff like that out of the blue 00:56:57 emma: well, I'd say the natural setting of lisp is the lisp machine, where lisp is used for everything, from the kernel and device drivers up to the smartest of the software you can imagine. 00:57:09 pjb, yes that's very inventive! 00:57:49 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 00:58:22 pjb, okay that's excellent but since there are none of those around that I know of, we might need to make some new interesting settings. Because I have a feeling that what makes languages popular is when they are the language that is used to do stuff with some *thing*. 00:58:30 -!- blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 00:58:49 like maybe lisp could be the natural language to script some kind of kit robots. Who knows. 00:59:18 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6ED0D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:21 emma: there's some bot kits that use scheme 00:59:38 oh that's excellent. 00:59:43 emma: that would be good publicity. I saw today a team made some flying robots using Ruby to program them. They could have used lisp as well. But that's Ruby that gets the publicity. 01:00:00 emma: conclusion: do anything you like, use lisp, be sure to publicize it! :-) 01:00:13 yeah right on. 01:00:25 that's absolutely true. 01:00:32 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:00:48 im good at publicizing things, I just need to learn lisp now. :) 01:00:53 but you will see. 01:00:57 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:59 pjb: an interlisp? like GUI for some "simplified" DSL-in-CL could go a long way for publicity - we could show off interesting stuff visual style, even to kids :D 01:02:03 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:02:26 pjb: I want that :) 01:02:33 pjb: the os thingy :) 01:03:28 emma: for the lisp + shell part, there is shelisp... perhaps not the best of all, but it does allow for some integration with the shell and thus allows you to see how it could be 01:04:41 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 01:04:52 emma: be sure to tell me what you find out in that respect (popularization of CL) 01:04:52 it's probably true that the shell is not the best place for lisp to show off 01:04:52 Lisp gives people things that they do not realize that they need. 01:05:01 madnificent, okay i will! 01:05:19 emma: perhaps not... shells are something in which you may benefit from a range of DSLs 01:05:26 *Xach* has a link 01:05:36 madnificent, i might be a little unusual. I am a big fan of lisp right now and Im waiting until I become competant to catch up with my enthusiasm for it! 01:05:51 emma: very good :D 01:06:00 Im reading the book as we speak. 01:06:17 emma: you're somewhat like me then, but perhaps better at it 01:06:20 Im a fan of the idea of lisp. 01:06:24 emma: 'the' being PCL? 01:06:27 yeah 01:06:38 s/idea/ideas 01:06:41 emma: you must consider that a shell is any kind of program that let the user give orders to the computers. The Finder, the WorkspaceManager are GUI shells. emacs is a shell. Any program that let you do some generic driving of the computer is a shell. 01:06:49 I want to see a new Lisp Renaissance in our time. 01:06:53 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/7c588cdb91a10d4d has some interesting "lisp way" vs "unix way" info 01:07:08 emma: so you can use lisp to implement a shell that is quite different to what you're used to. 01:07:18 emma: we have lisp renaissance faires to dress up as nerds and solve ai problems 01:07:23 haha 01:07:46 pjb, that's an excellent point. 01:07:53 Xach: I feel so gay in this outfit :( 01:08:07 madnificent: i also feel quite happy 01:08:12 pjb, i guess I was thinking that a lisp-shell that tries to be like bash would not work out well but that doesn't mean an entirely different approach could not be superior. 01:09:49 emma: there is much that could benefit from it. Go back to reading, we want you here enlightened 01:10:03 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:10:20 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@pool-173-73-92-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:20 -!- chessguy_work is now known as chessguy 01:12:29 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.199.80] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 01:12:51 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-101-220.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:57 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.13.158] has joined #lisp 01:16:04 back away from the ORM! 01:16:09 coderdad_ [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:41 there is no pain like the pain of "No selected tables for statement" 01:16:41 -!- coderdad_ [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:17:20 it's convenient to work with "CLOS" and forget there is a database underneath all this, but wait until you have 60 tables, indices, sequences and views 01:17:20 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:17:44 if I had written pure SQL or at least sexpish ones in the first place, my debugging pain would have been cut in half 01:17:45 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6ED0D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 01:18:02 I'm going to use an ORM for an upcoming project. You try and stop me! 01:18:34 3 weeks of straight debugging and embarassmant, dragging down a whole team just to be able to say (make-instance 'class .. args) instead of (insert-record 'table args) 01:18:55 fusss: I've build my own ORM... it works fairly well (but it may be slow on some occasions... only then do I back out to SQL) 01:19:13 fusss: needs to evolve to become decent though 01:19:45 clsql does 90% of the time right. but the other 10% are absolute show stoppers 01:19:49 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@n15-60.dsl.vianetworks.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:20:20 ah, I'm not planning to use clsql. 01:20:28 luis: postmodern? 01:20:37 Is that an ORM? 01:20:43 not really 01:20:57 cl-perec and clsql are the closest ones to a real ORM 01:20:58 No, I'm going to use cl-perec again. 01:21:01 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:19 What's not real about cl-perec? 01:21:38 there are two types of lisp packages i absolutely don't grok; attilaware, and stuff that came out of CoreServer 01:22:18 luis: never used it; i poured over cl-rdbms last night and it looks clean 01:22:34 then i found out it uses postmodern as the main backend, so why not just use that? 01:22:45 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-65-51.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:23:00 Oh, and I'm going to start calling it perec. Lousy cl- prefixes. 01:27:03 fusss: cl-def is also quite annoying in grokability :D 01:30:56 when you guys are using slime do you put the repl at the top and your file at the bottom or the other way? 01:31:25 i like it to be on the bottom 01:32:09 *p_l* splits the screen vertically 01:32:29 <_3b> my repl is usually in upper half of leftmost frame, if visible at all 01:32:56 *_3b* just evaluates things from a .lisp file and reads output from minibuffer more often than not though 01:33:24 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:36:56 blitz_ [n=blitz@dslb-094-222-034-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:44 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:42:49 myfinder [n=myfinder@122x220x64x254.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:42:58 -!- myfinder [n=myfinder@122x220x64x254.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has left #lisp 01:44:42 luis: i have an ORM, ROFL, that is a lot more lightweight than perec. 01:44:48 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:45:12 luis: it's in clbuild as relational-objects-for-lisp, if you want to check it out 01:47:03 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 01:48:01 drewc: I'll check it out, thanks. 01:50:21 emma: bottom 01:51:50 drewc: nice 01:52:30 http://labs.core.gen.tr/repos/core-server/src/database/object.lisp 01:52:46 drewc: im using this. 01:52:49 but no sql. 01:53:45 drewc: quite a dependency list there, including LoL 01:53:57 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:07 -!- Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-156-185.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:54:44 brb 01:54:46 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.13.158] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.2/20090729225027]"] 01:55:43 chatziLLa. 01:57:22 emma: in case you haven't noticed yet, many lispers have their own 'way' for roughly everything 01:58:43 v0|d: i won't even look at that link for fear of gpl taint :) 02:01:15 fusss: i'm not sure it really requires lol anymore... i just haven't removed the dep is likely. 02:01:23 oh, he's gone. 02:01:32 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:02:35 Xach: you must have the most comprehensive collection of naggum links... seems like you've got one for every occasion :) 02:03:35 emma: with regards to lisp and shell... i spend almost every waking hour in emacs, and rarely use the shell at all. However, i do a lot of unix scripting for my hosting business, and for that i use ksh. 02:03:42 right tool for the job like. 02:04:28 ksh is a better perl than perl IMO :) 02:04:44 http://labs.core.gen.tr/repos/core-server/src/commands/shell.lisp 02:04:51 i use both:) 02:05:56 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:06:46 s0ber_ [i=pie@118-160-174-71.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:11 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:07:28 don't get me wrong, i use lisp code to manipulate the filesystem and occasionally run external programs, but ksh is much more suited to the scripting-type tasks that come up in a hosting environment. 02:07:39 IMO, YMMV, etc 02:07:52 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has joined #lisp 02:08:50 i had a bunch of scsh and cl code at one point... but i dare you to find an excellent sysadmin who is fluent in scheme and CL as well as the ins and outs of linux. 02:09:06 and then have to pay him/her? i don't think so! :D 02:09:34 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:39 i don't pay myself usually 02:10:10 i've tried those into core server, ie apache vhost, backup, restore, snapshot, dns record manip etc. 02:10:40 i b uild application with correct config and let it do the rest. it's really painful otherwise. 02:11:04 stassats`: right... but i do like getting paid... so for work that someone else can do cheaper than me, i'd prefer to hire them, and take the time saved to work on my higher-paying gigs :) 02:12:52 girzel [n=user@123.121.237.25] has joined #lisp 02:12:54 need some sort of lisp academy where you hire lisp novices/intermediaries on the cheap, eh? 02:13:01 -!- iwaki [n=hide@PPPa272.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:13:03 drafael: no. 02:13:11 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-160-9.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:13:15 the problem with lisp is that novices are, well, novices. 02:13:32 and in short supply i think. 02:13:42 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-201.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:13:48 dys` [n=andreas@95.112.82.178] has joined #lisp 02:13:53 vecklock [n=vecklock@76.73.167.82] has joined #lisp 02:13:57 cheap being relative.. i'd rather pay a pro $100/hr and have him bill one hour than a novice at $20*5hr. 02:14:02 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@dslb-094-222-034-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:14:19 that's true, but why not contract? 02:14:20 and also, result will be different 02:14:38 stassats`: right .. one of those $100 will get me better code, and it's not the 'cheap' one :) 02:14:49 my impression is that java was designed from the bottom up to be the language where you can put inexperienced or unskilled coders to work on parts of it and then bring it all together. 02:14:55 drafael: what do you mean? piece work? 02:15:07 emma: java is crap. 02:15:11 emma: it cant event do that. 02:15:30 *stassats`* thinks about hacking some climacs 02:15:34 emma: "Java was to bring C++ coders half way to lisp" -- paraphrased from GLS 02:15:55 java is much like an infinite monkey solution. 02:16:04 drewc: nothing important, just an economics thing. got to run 02:17:01 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A2B48.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:17:11 anyways, contrary to popular belief, there is lots of work in lisp. It's just not on monster.com or craigslist ;) 02:17:35 google trends show a decline. 02:17:41 since 2006. 02:17:46 (quality of code aside, contract rates remove the whole hour mismatch thing and might be good when employing a novice) 02:18:38 also with such an academy, it would probably be more about giving people experience than the final outcome or the money 02:18:43 drafael: not sure what you mean by 'contract rates' ... i've (almost) always worked as a contractor and always billed by the hour. 02:19:04 oh, really? no fixed contract rate for the job? 02:19:09 If you mean fixed-bid stuff, i rarely do it and would likely never ask someone else to. 02:19:12 no, never. 02:19:22 that's a simple way to get screwed. 02:19:56 i _have_ done fixed bid in the past, and ended up working for less than $2/hr all said and done. 02:20:27 v0|d: my inbox says otherwise. 02:20:34 mm, as someone wanting to get experience myself, I would actually prefer fixed bid 02:20:47 pkhuong: never talked to your inbox, sorry. 02:20:51 but I'm a student so that's fitting :P 02:21:06 if you want experience, you can hack open source projects 02:21:07 v0|d: interestingly, i never got a contract of google trends 02:21:20 stassats`: cv? 02:21:30 drafael: yeah, what stassats` said. hack open source, get noticed, and people will come to you. 02:21:38 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:05 i have a few lispers under contract to me right now, and i never looked at their resume, education or work experience. Just their attitude and code. 02:22:26 hell, one is a relative novice even :) 02:22:37 hmm, well that's encouraging 02:23:18 -!- GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:23:30 you can always put your experience in cv, like "i have committed 2000 patches to the linux kernel." 02:23:48 http://businessguysonbusinesstrips.com/ 02:23:49 <_3b> easier to pick what you work on for OS too, so you get to decide what you have experience in, instead of just ending up with some random employer picking your specialty :) 02:24:57 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 02:25:58 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f705651.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:26:22 as i've always said: "If you want to do something for a living, simply refuse to do anything else. Starvation and homelessness are wonderful motivators... you _will_ make it happen" :) 02:26:47 haha 02:26:53 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@65-124-255-226.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:13 I suppose i was lucky in that i had existing clients who didn't care what language things got done in, so i was able to use lisp almost immediately. 02:27:21 i want do lisp for fun 02:27:50 *_3b* wants to get paid for doing lisp for fun :) 02:27:52 stassats`: that's a lot easier! Whatever you do, avoid doing it for work, and it will always be fun! :) 02:28:08 _3b: research? 02:28:26 *drewc* sails boats for fun 02:29:12 *stassats`* rides bicycle for fun 02:29:29 oh, and booze... booze is fun too. 02:29:32 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:04 i've my skateboard paiinted last month. bought new tires:) 02:31:06 i'm going to go get some cider as i can't go sailing and don't feel like lisping :D 02:32:07 you can contract your ferrets to write lisp 02:32:44 i have heard many times that with lisp if you work long enough you get a great feeling of enlightenment when the purity of quantified conception and ideas made manifest become clear to you. That's why I chose to learn lisp first. You never hear anyone saying that about any other languages. 02:33:12 emma: Sounds like a cult. 02:33:33 common lisp doesn't sound pure to me at all 02:33:51 <_3b> forth and smalltalk seem similarly cultish sometimes 02:34:17 pureness and practicality doesn't combine well 02:34:30 <_3b> (and similarly 'you should learn for enlightenment' languages) 02:35:08 I had an experienced smalltalker whom I respect ask me what a REPL was at my latest Slate presentation... blew me away 02:35:26 -!- vecklock [n=vecklock@76.73.167.82] has left #lisp 02:36:04 stassats`: they are horrible coders... last time they snuck code into my repo it took me hours to figure out what was wrong. now i make sure to close the laptop when leaving the boat. 02:37:18 forth, (small) scheme and smalltalk are the three most enlightening, and also cultish, languages i've had the pleasure to code in. 02:37:32 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-8-169.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 02:37:43 CL is for getting real work done rather than feeling good about purity etc :) 02:37:49 lambda calculus is enlightening 02:38:13 that is very true... and i'd never want to write a real program in it :) 02:38:52 oh, haskell was up there too... so pure they need hacks like monads exposed to programmers in order to get real work done ;) 02:39:25 not going there. 02:41:08 i need to write a paper that outlines my thoughts on the subject... "LAMBDA the Ultimate GOTO Considered Harmful" :D 02:41:58 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.118.9] has joined #lisp 02:44:32 drewc: i wish its that simple. 02:44:33 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:00 v0|d: as simple as possible, but no simpler ;) 02:45:29 needmore coffee. 02:45:40 this upgrading is making me nervous. 02:46:42 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-191-200.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:42 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has quit [] 02:48:10 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:49:32 *drewc* goes to get some Sir Perry's 02:49:34 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@65-124-255-226.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit [] 02:54:03 seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:59:27 GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:51 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:05:24 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-73-92-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:05:46 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-108-139.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 03:07:57 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-8-169.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:11:19 Adlai`` [n=adlai@93-173-133-26.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 03:12:11 -!- Adlai`` is now known as Adlai 03:12:53 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:14:15 p0a [n=user@athedsl-382808.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 03:14:23 Hello how can I create a keyword from a symbol 03:14:45 (intern (symbol-name symbol) 'keyword) 03:14:46 let's say I have the symbol 'foo and I want to create the keyword :make-foo 03:14:50 nice 03:16:18 (intern (format nil "~a-~a" 'make symbol) 'keyword) 03:17:53 I used SYMBOL-CONC instead. (symbol-conc 'make- symbol) 03:20:18 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:20:23 coderdad [n=coderdad@72.200.214.240] has joined #lisp 03:20:32 dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:24 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:22:02 clhs symbol-conc 03:22:03 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for symbol-conc. 03:22:05 ??? 03:22:06 :D 03:22:41 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:25:21 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.28.192] has joined #lisp 03:25:56 fellow lispers doing web apps, here is a piece of advice that cost us a pretty penny to discover, my gift to you for free 03:26:18 abstract away all database access to a webservice! 03:26:32 it sounds enterprisey and wasteful, but your sanity depends on it 03:26:40 -!- egn [i=tux@nodes.fm] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:26:52 egn [i=tux@nodes.fm] has joined #lisp 03:26:57 fusss: thank you o wise one 03:27:04  03:27:07 wrap up all database access to a few routines; find-object, find-object-by, update-object, update-object-where, list-objects, list-objects-where, etc. 03:27:53 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@72.200.214.240] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:27:55 and go one step further, exporting THOSE routines from a standalone DB "web server" that takes requests and returns results as json-rpc or xml-rpc 03:28:12 MVC sucks for any application that load balances over multiple httpds 03:28:23 abstraction, isn't that what they teach at school? 03:28:23 oh could someone make a lisp type of django? couldn't that be popular? 03:28:46 emma: many of the parts for that exist already 03:28:57 fusss: who is "us" when you say "that cost us"? 03:28:59 emma: they aren't all that accessiable, though, you need to wire them up yourself. 03:29:18 emma: such a thing could indeed be quite popular, though. 03:29:30 a simple request like (let ((blog-posts (list-object-where 'post :user-id (current-user-id))) (render blog-posts)) can block your server or worse, throw you in a debugger. once you wrap this up in a web service, the call doesn't block, you will render the html quickly, and render the result set, if any, right on the spot. 03:29:48 emma: i've never used Django (nor have I coded in Python) but if you're looking for a web framework, there is UnCommon Web 03:29:52 felideon: my employer and our team 03:30:17 fusss: ...do you have a blog that you could post the things you are saying to us on? this is the sort of thing I would like to link some of my friends to. 03:30:31 block your server on IO? Threads anyone? 03:30:37 mogunus`: none, just our internal blog 03:30:58 pkhuong: and this is where you get wrong! you put threads in your app logic and you're screwed; hard to debug, IME 03:31:06 pkhuong: go as simple as possible 03:31:08 fusss: depressing! your chain of advice seems good to me. 03:31:23 fusss: I suppose I can link them to the IRC transcript here 03:31:38 app logic? It's a web server, each request is independent. 03:31:42 mogunus`: i have a "Lisp Web Development" howto trapped in me 03:32:00 fusss: clearly. you should give it to the internet, sometime. it seems like it would be good stuff. 03:32:12 pkhuong: no it's not. if you're doing authorization and sessions, if you're doing fine grained access control with RBAC, all that stuff lies in the app logic 03:32:20 drewc: http://coding.derkeiler.com/Archive/Lisp/comp.lang.lisp/2007-02/msg00162.html 03:32:36 I saw it and it seemed like a decent implementation so I borrowed it for my code 03:32:55 p0a, Look at alexandria's SYMBOLICATE or FORMAT-SYMBOL. 03:33:11 pkhuong: we're 100% web server and database independent; i build on hunchentoot and sqlite3 and deploy on mysql+memcached and a hunchentoot farm and my team deploys on php which consumes hunchentoot services via CodeIgniter 03:33:23 and that's simple. 03:33:38 jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 03:33:53 fusss: that's interesting. 03:33:57 as simple as (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :project) believe it or not. the php guys actually think it's apache 03:34:00 dwh: thanks 03:34:40 p0a, I use alexandria in -every- project. It's jam packed with simple juicy goodness. 03:34:46 fusss: what type of web apps? your typical blog, wiki? 03:34:52 cxml-rpc is delicious, us it to save face and interop with the world 03:34:56 Honestly, web development scares me shitless, for some reason. 03:35:21 felideon: a social network for a niche professional industry + university records + event planning and conference stuff 03:35:23 I don't like web development. 03:35:27 fusss: threads are even simpler: they come built in the implementation. 03:35:50 fusss: http://labs.core.gen.tr/labs.core.gen.tr/repos/core-server/examples/blog.lisp 03:35:57 dwh: cl-containers too, but as always you'll have to learn the library, something I can't afford /right/ now. I will take a look into alexandria though and if I like it I'll user it certainly :P 03:36:02 fusss: cool. do you use UCW? 03:36:02 use* 03:36:04 I use RoR for my summer job, generally. I tried to get them to let me use hunchentoot, but that didn't fly. 03:36:25 If I got to use lisp it wouldn't be so bad. 03:36:37 felideon: plain jane hunchentoot with home made weblocks clone which we abandoned in favor of a few macros 03:36:44 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:36:45 Ok, I need somebody with experience in the gtkairo backend to tell me why my implementation of MEDIUM-DRAW-IMAGE-DESIGN* sucks. 03:36:48 mogunus`: RoR is *good* 03:36:49 fusss: nice 03:37:20 fusss: I know. Of the not-lisp solutions to web development, I can put up with it much better than anything else. 03:37:24 save your necks, xml-rpc, it doesn't have to suck :-P actually, make that "other stuff sucks even more" :-D 03:37:40 wouldnt think lispers were too fond of xml 03:37:40 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:37:49 fusss: I just really prefer numerical computing to web development. 03:37:58 mogunus`: a bit over engineered; a lot of the RoR and Django 'features' should even be there to begin with 03:38:14 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:53 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:38:58 alright, back to growing another gray hair 03:40:47 lispm [n=joswig@e177127254.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 03:41:04 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-382808.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 03:42:07 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:42:17 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 03:44:40 do any of you lisp guys think that lisp could be a natural language for web app development? 03:45:22 No. 03:45:28 <_3b> web development seems to be a popular usage for lisp in this channel 03:46:54 emma: i hope it's soon. 03:48:59 I believe a really important thing for anyone who would like to see growth in the lisp community, would be to create, or find, some platform or environment where lisp can become the 'go to' tool for tinkering on it. 03:49:16 like? 03:49:23 that's the trick. 03:50:16 but when i think of other languages i see people talking about you can usually match it with some system, platform, or environment where it's the go to language . 03:50:55 there is web development, web application development, and web application *platform* development 03:51:02 if lisp cannot dislodge one of those, then people who would like to popularize lisp should create something that people can tinker on with lisp. 03:51:23 It's simply not going to happen. 03:51:32 And why not? 03:51:38 *_3b* suspects most lisp users just want to use lisp, not popularize it 03:51:48 What you have to ask yourself is this -- what problems that people know that they have does lisp solve? 03:51:48 i personally don't care if people "like" Lisp or hate it, WGaS 03:51:48 _3b i believe that is true. 03:52:23 lisp, like all other languages, doesn't solve any problems. programmers do. 03:52:27 _3b, oh, I'd like to have libraries so that I could do what I actually _love_, instead of slaving out to work out that foundation.. 03:52:29 If I want to write stupid web pages that do stupid things, then I use javascript because I know that it solves my problem, and the alternatives are too horrible to contemplate. 03:52:40 Javascript solves a problem that people know that they have. 03:52:50 Yeah well let me tell you this -- if you care or not does not mean no one cares. And --- A little bit of reflection would reveal that when you are part of a dynamic community with lots of participants you get external benefits from that. You get more ideas, you get more libraries, you get more documentation, you get more updates, etc, etc, etc. 03:53:06 Saying mindless gibberish like "lisp, like all other languages, doesn't solve any problems. programmers do." does not help unless you want to wallow in denial. 03:53:19 Lisp, like other languages does facilitate the solving of various problems. 03:53:35 The problem is that it facilitates the solving of problems that the vast majority of people do not know that they have. 03:53:39 i use lisp the way i used C++ 03:53:46 *felideon* wonders if emma is a troll or genuinely a newbie 03:54:11 lets ask, who are you emma? 03:54:15 emma is okay. 03:54:22 Im new. And why would I be a troll for promoting the idea that people should care about growing a lisp community and attracting more interest in lisp? 03:54:36 lisp sucks, what i like about it is that i can push it out of the way when it gets in the way. with other languages, it's hard to do that, save for C. 03:54:38 dude, quit being a cranky jerk 03:54:50 Nothing wrong with promoting that -- but you need to be realistic. 03:54:57 So, what does lisp help people do? 03:54:58 that's like all you do all day in all the channels you reside in Zhivago 03:55:00 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:55:06 emma: which language u use? 03:55:07 <_3b> i'm not saying we don't care, just that we don't find it worthwhile to work on directly 03:55:12 adamant: Please be quiet until you have something intelligent to say. 03:55:23 _3b yeah I get you. 03:55:27 Zhivago: if you adopted that as a motto you would log off right now 03:55:32 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:55:34 adamant: Try harder. 03:55:40 you're a try hard? 03:55:57 oh well 03:56:03 No ideas about what lisp helps people do better than other languages? 03:56:16 emma: if you mean web frameworks; yeah, those promote negligent use by ignorant developers. once you know what you're doing, you will not need the training wheels. 03:56:23 Why not consider why you're not talking about prolog like this ... 03:56:27 Lisp is going to be my first programming language, I dont know as much as the rest of you about anything yet. Im just enthusiastic about it, probably for irrational reasons, but sometimes that's good. 03:56:35 Which is another language in a similar situation. 03:56:41 for me, I can protype stuff faster in lisp, because it supports any programming paradigm I can throw at it. 03:56:44 <_3b> fusss: i'd argue negligent use by ignorant developers is one of the biggest things missing from the lisp community :) 03:56:55 emma: That's fine -- just don't expect other people to share those irrational reasons. :) 03:56:56 oh #lisp. 03:56:57 <_3b> fusss: (as in a bad thing about the lisp community) 03:56:57 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.118.9] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:57:08 fusss: you mean experienced developers should use web frameworks? 03:57:19 emma: If you want to popularize something you need to work out some rational reasons. 03:57:19 s/should/shouldn't 03:57:23 lisp has a heritage. Prolog is just some kind of novelty. 03:57:37 That's just weak propaganda -- try again. 03:57:41 I know prolog too, and I prefer lisp because it isn't a one paradigm language. prolog stumbles on anything that isn't logic. I mean, in lisp, I have a prolog DSL that I use when I need it. 03:57:41 Zhivago, I have. I said what I think needs to happen above. 03:57:46 Prolog has heritage in the same sense as lisp does. 03:57:47 felideon: once you know what you're doing, you probably have your favorite frameworin ~/hacks 03:58:14 oh 03:58:18 Modula 3 is where it's at 03:58:32 Prolog also solves problems that most people don't realize they have. 03:58:38 fusss: i see what you mean 03:59:24 felideon: the fuckers don't scale though; a million people might be rejoicing the existence of, say, RoR, but I can think of a company with a billion bucks, a billion lines of RoR and no time to change it. it sucks to be locked down by your tools. 03:59:38 Which is probably why javascript is far more popular than prolog. 03:59:43 personally, I like working with lisp, and popularity tends to involve more, better libraries. 03:59:54 To people who are not lisp converts, lisp looks pretty much like prolog does. 04:00:05 frameworks aren't all equal though  think Hunchentoot/Weblocks in lisp, and Cherrypy/Turbogears in Python 04:00:08 Zhivago: build prolog in to every web browser and you might just see a renaissance 04:00:19 Hunchentoot and CherryPy do things I would NEVER be interested in writing myself 04:00:25 fusss: Funny that you should mention that, but there is a prolog to javascript compiler. 04:00:43 Weblocks and Turbogears are big things you might as well end up writing yourself to your own specifications 04:00:45 girzel: like what? 04:00:52 fusss: gotcha. well here's something more practical. i started writing a blog web app with Hunchentoot + CL-WHO. I kind of want to re-write it, and I was thinking of using UCW to make use of continuations and what not, and maybe not spend so much time generating my own HTML 04:01:00 fusss: what would you recommend? 04:01:04 session implementation, basic header getting/setting 04:01:11 boring crap I'll probably get wrong 04:01:25 girzel: got it! you're right :-) 04:01:25 http basics 04:01:48 If you ask most people starting lisp why they're doing lisp, what answers do you expect to hear? 04:01:49 maxima is one of the reasons i am learning lisp. Beause it's a long term dream to contribute to that. Not likely, but it's kind of a nice dream. 04:01:52 I came to lisp/hunchentoot from django, which I loved and still love, but the more you get into it the more you end up rewriting yourself 04:01:57 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:02:05 Usually I hear something like "I heard that smart hackers like lisp!" 04:02:29 Zhivago: a lot of people get into CL because of a SICP course. 04:02:35 That's how I ended up here. 04:02:36 I think that propaganda drives much of the influx of lisp programmers. 04:02:52 felideon: my feedback would be helpful to you if your blog was seeing 500k uniques a day; scalability. if it's a personal blog stick to pure hunchentoot and whatever DB does full text search out of the box. One thing you could do is use something Elephant-BDB as DB and index all POSTed materials with montezuma. 04:03:08 *_3b* started using lisp after realizing metaprogramming c++ in lua wasn't sane 04:03:08 On the other hand, to tie into the "What is Lisp good for" discussion, weblocks does some amazing stuff with continuations that other languages couldn't manage. But it also abstracts away http, which makes me nervous. 04:03:08 mogunus: That's another way. 04:03:28 Lisp does have a sort of exotic-elite-grandeur to it that python and such DOES NOT have. 04:03:37 So, how many people start to use lisp for sensible reasons? 04:04:22 mine was full of realization. 04:04:25 _3b: so you read PG's "Metaprogramming C++ in Lua is insance" essay. that was a good read. 04:04:28 And in order to answer that question, you need to work out what problems lisp solves for people? And how to make them aware that these problems exist. 04:04:32 Lisp is to programming languages what Latin is to human languages? 04:04:48 emma: Unfortunately that is meaningless gibberish. 04:04:48 fusss: any reason why Elephant-BDB as oppsed to PostgreSQL, for example? 04:04:58 It's a metaphor. 04:05:18 *stassats`* doesn't like cultization of lisp 04:05:31 Making people aware of these problems is really hard -- consider how long it's taken for GC and lexical closures to become accepted as normal features? 04:05:38 felideon: Postgres is good too, along with postmodern; i just don't know it well enough. 04:05:44 i see 04:05:50 Zhivago: lexical closures are accepted? 04:06:01 And all of the easy problems that lisp solved well are also solved by other languages, such as python, ruby, etc. 04:06:05 sykopomp: Apple just added them to C :-) 04:06:10 syko: Yes, even C is considering adding them. 04:06:18 this is madness 04:06:22 syko: Haven't seen a new language without them for quite a while. 04:06:31 sykopomp: NO, THIS IS LISP 04:06:35 morganb [n=user@wsip-98-188-196-29.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:37 Adamant: oic 04:06:46 Zhivago: java? 04:06:57 Well, they keep trying to put them in. 04:07:06 don't they keep rejecting it? 04:07:18 Yes, but eventually the committee members will die. 04:07:22 *emma* imagines Adamant pushing sykopomp into a bottomless pit with his foot. 04:07:25 felideon: careful with mysql; it has a tendency to "run away" if your application ends up in the debugger for whatever reason 04:07:37 fusss: yeah, not interested in mysql at all 04:07:44 emma: wouldn't an EOF condition be more appropriate? 04:07:49 hehe 04:08:05 felideon: didn't we sorta "cooperate" in a small hunchentoot blog example? 04:08:16 anyways, there's certainly interest for us users in lisp being a tad more popular 04:08:22 fusss: yeah we've talked before 04:08:55 felideon: i still have that code from my newbie hunchentoot days :-) 04:08:55 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:08:57 more money flowing to lisp implementations -> better quality compilers; more people -> more libraries; more users -> more users; rinse and repeat. 04:09:07 the lisp talks from MIT gave a great overview to On! 04:09:08 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:09 felideon: better examples are in weblocks's simple-blog and core server's 04:09:11 does the popularization of scheme count as success in lisp being more popular or do we want common lisp to be more popular? 04:09:39 scheme is its own thing as far as I'm concerned. There's things about CL I like better. 04:09:44 Scheme is a lisp, and I include it in the above -- it isn't popularized. 04:09:49 emma: scheme is good; anything that helps people grok parens is good 04:09:58 fusss: i started hooking it up with CouchDB. problem is that the CouchDB library (cl-couch) isn't being maintained, and I've run into some bugs and don't have the patience/expertise to fix them. plus, i'm realizing CouchDB is still pretty much hype right now. i'd rather go with something with more support in the Lisp, such as BDB or Postgres 04:10:19 felideon: clouchdb is nice, although you can't write views in CL 04:10:32 sykopomp: you can, with cl-couch 04:10:37 sykopomp: ohh 04:10:40 -!- egn [i=tux@nodes.fm] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:10:44 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177127254.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:10:50 sykopomp: havent tried clouchdb 04:10:50 felideon: but cl-couch is unmaintained and has a horrible interface for everything else 04:10:56 felideon: ring me up when you need Redis; i also have something for it, but read up on Redis first, it is not for everyone or all uses. we use it as a log server. 04:11:44 brb. lunch. 04:11:53 sykopomp: how realistic is it to add views in CL to clouchdb? 04:11:57 felipe: i'll check it out 04:12:08 mogunus`: you use parenscript. 04:12:11 sykopomp: I'm having the same problem with cl-couch that felideon is having 04:12:38 I imagine an enterprising soul could even port cl-couch's view server to clouchdb 04:12:43 yeah i think the json library or whatever that it uses was updated, and now cl-couch is breaking 04:13:01 sykopomp: clouchdb doesnt have its own view serveR? 04:13:09 clouchdb sort of grabbed cl-json, tore it to shreds (removing some of its extensibility), and inlined it... 04:13:11 felideon: I actually fixed that breakage. there were only a couple lines to deal with there. 04:13:23 felideon: there's something worse going on which has to do with the view server 04:13:25 felideon: it uses the javascript view server. You write views in parenscript. 04:13:39 sykopomp: i see 04:14:08 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-141-157-64-49.balt.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:25 felideon: which I cou;dn 04:14:33 felideon: couldn't fix, last time I looked. 04:14:36 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 04:14:50 mogunus`: really? i noticed something weird there too. i had to rewrite some of my functions to use the main couch-request* function rather than the query macro or whatever 04:15:30 felideon: yeah, the json breakage reall isn't the problem. I actually got everything but the view server to work. 04:15:36 pretty much all 3 existing couchdb libraries need significant amounts of work. 04:15:37 sykopomp: well that's not that bad actually. since the javascript view server is the de facto view server for couchdb, no? 04:15:43 felideon: correct. 04:15:47 egn [i=tux@nodes.fm] has joined #lisp 04:15:51 -!- huangjs [n=user@p2162-ipbf6607marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:16:18 now, the real question is: is CouchDB really worth it? 04:16:33 felideon: and since the views-in-lisp is the only reason I wanted to use cl-couchdb, I worked on that for like a day and then gave up 04:16:36 I'm not sure. I'm using it because it's really easy to map what I'm doing into it. 04:16:59 I think couch is totally worth it. I want tuple stores where I can add fields to documents at a whim, and couch seems to be the most accessiable one of those out these days. 04:17:10 so if you're stupid and/or lazy, couchdb is pretty much the way to go, hands-down. 04:17:30 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:17:36 have you guys tried MongoDB? 04:17:41 no 04:18:07 _3b: C and lua ... that's how i came to lisp as well. 04:18:27 yeah well i did like how couchdb was so easy to set up, and how it has a web interface, based on js, etc. 04:18:28 is there a different tuple store for lisp? 04:18:42 do those of you who know lisp, have most of the functions and macros memorized? 04:19:09 mogunus`: of course. Check out PCL for a fantastic implementation of a sexp-based database! 04:19:12 chapter 3, I think it was 04:19:13 ;) 04:19:29 sykopomp: very funny :-P 04:19:30 sykopomp, that's exactly what im building right now 04:19:41 emma: define memorized. I usually know what i'm looking for, and how to find it. 04:20:16 emma: I've been doing this for about a year and a half, and I still learn about new operators every time I sit down to code ;\ 04:20:18 i am on chapter three of the book. 04:20:36 zomg, it's emma 04:20:55 is there some nice website where all the operators and common macros are listed in a way where you can easily see what they do and how they work? 04:21:04 clhs 04:21:12 minion clhs 04:21:16 the one felipe on freenode.net is actually in #lisp 04:21:18 minion: clhs 04:21:18 clhs: To look up a symbol in the HyperSpec, try saying "clhs symbol". For more information on the HyperSpec see http://www.cliki.net/CLHS . 04:21:25 clhs 04:21:45 emma: the hyperspec is pretty awesome. 04:21:55 minion: clhs complement 04:21:55 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 04:22:01 :( 04:22:02 felideon: heh :) 04:22:07 clhs complement 04:22:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_comple.htm 04:22:09 like that :P 04:23:00 clhs is non-free 04:23:31 but it's damn handy 04:23:35 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-26-190.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:24:05 handy capable hyperspec, free as in warez! 04:25:06 seems like a wiki could do that and be free. 04:25:39 and frankly more readable. 04:25:53 fusss: Lisp isn't listed under support languages on the Redis page 04:25:56 (as usual) 04:26:13 emma: says you. You'll learn. 04:26:17 -!- morganb [n=user@wsip-98-188-196-29.ga.at.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:26:24 emma: hyperspec is great. Once you grok the hyperspec, you love the hyperspec. 04:26:37 okay 04:26:43 emma: FWIW, i actually started such a wiki in 2004-ish, before i learned to grok the clhs. 04:26:52 I forget what the copyright issues were (probably had something to do with all the contributors to the spec), but in general, it's pretty much accepted that it's a free-for-all document. 04:26:55 felideon: pre pre pre alpha 04:27:01 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:27:22 i've since realised what a horrible idea that was... who do you want teaching you lisp... those who created it, or any old arsehole on a wiki? 04:27:22 sometimes it's not quite that easy to free the shit out of something 04:27:22 okay i absolutely do believe in and acknowledge that not groking things is a real phenomena that happens to me. 04:27:29 if only the US would learn that lesson... 04:27:53 sykopomp: the draft ansi spec is public domain, IIRC 04:27:53 fusss: he told me to ring you up when i needed it... how will I know? :) 04:28:02 fusss: s/he/you 04:28:05 sykopomp: it's only the html version that is copyrighted 04:28:11 drewc -- i always believe things can be improved even if it requires a fictional version of myself in a potential future to do it. 04:28:16 drewc: copyright to who? Pitman? 04:28:25 sykopomp: lispworks owns it 04:28:29 ah 04:28:45 felideon: heh, check with me in 2 weeks; right now too busy to even take bug reports for the few commands i have implemented 04:28:50 they bought it from harliquin, who bought it from lucid, or some such. 04:29:18 fusss: ah :) 04:29:21 emma: improving on the CLHS is a task that is not easily undertaken.. the clhs is _awesome_ 04:29:22 emma: one lesson that keeps slapping me in the face with lisp is that even when something seems like it can be improved, I generally don't understand it well enough to correctly spot it, and certainly not competent enough to suggest an alternative :( 04:29:29 fusss: i was just wondering why i would need Redis, i guess 04:29:49 "bah, MAP sucks!" 04:29:56 "oh wait no, MAP is awesome! This is great!" 04:29:57 etc 04:30:21 emma: it's just not an introductory text.. it's a specification which also happens to serve as a reference 04:30:54 emma: and most importantly, it's _never_ wrong.. if an implementation does not conform to the spec, it's the implementation that's wrong :D 04:31:05 (things like prog2 obviously not included) 04:31:25 drewc: there's ambiguities, though :] 04:32:02 sykopomp: indeed, but they are few and far between for the most part, and rarely affect the average hacker :) 04:32:03 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:32:40 *drewc* thinks the spec is a work of art... even it's flaws are beautiful :P 04:32:43 its 04:32:44 damnint 04:32:51 minion: thwap to me 04:32:51 drewc: look at thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 04:33:12 cads [n=max@c-24-30-105-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:26 one pint of cider and the stray 's start showing up 04:33:46 cads_ [n=max@c-24-30-105-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:47 drewc: are there any implementations that actually strictly followed prog2's definition? :P 04:33:48 great, core-server list is 30 ppl now. 04:34:07 -!- cads_ [n=max@c-24-30-105-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 04:34:14 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:34:15 is the easiest way to keep up with SBCL versions to use clbuild? 04:34:17 sykopomp: i've always wanted to create an implementation that does, just for kicks :) 04:35:02 drewc: you could probably just provide patches for several implementations that implements the 'proper' version. 04:35:07 felideon: probably, yeah. At least when you update clbuild along with sbcl, you're likely to get a working set of libraries. sometimes. if the moon is in the right spot and zeus is smiling on you. 04:35:21 I'm sure Franz people would get a kick out of being submitted a "bugfix" for it :) 04:35:37 sykopomp: SBCL did an april fools joke one year wher ethey claimed to have a conforming implementation of prog2... i lol'd. 04:35:50 hehehe 04:35:55 drewc: update clbuild by doing darcs pull? 04:36:18 felideon: darcs pull then ./clbuild update IIRC 04:36:42 you really want to keep all the libraries at versions that came out near the release date of your SBCL 04:36:45 drewc: ah, just that p_l mentioned earlier that darcs pull might screw clbuild 04:36:58 felideon: well... it might screw darcs. 04:37:12 drewc: i see 04:37:19 darcs is a little finicky when it comes to exponential patch behavior... 04:37:37 i've had darcs use 99% CPU for days trying to do something that confuses it. 04:37:40 i dont even remember how i installed SBCL last time 04:37:48 wow 04:38:06 i blame haskell... of course. 04:38:29 asympthotic evaluation time. 04:38:31 they're too fixed on theory 04:38:36 darcs is written in haskell? 04:38:36 right that's due to lazy evaluation. 04:38:41 felideon: yes 04:39:04 ah, thought it was in Erlang 04:39:18 but i know that lazy evaluation is nice. just change variable references with lambdas and you'r ready to go. 04:39:33 then it would use all your CPUs and CPUs of your neighbours 04:39:46 lol 04:39:47 cpus are to burn! 04:39:52 and nothing else. 04:39:58 stassats`: but it would be damn stable! 04:41:59 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 04:42:00 which weblocks components do you use? 04:42:07 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 04:42:41 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 04:42:49 *chirp* *chirp* 04:43:01 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 04:43:59 *drewc* points to http://paste.lisp.org/display/73026 as the reason he doesn't like weblocks 04:44:07 well, it's really cl-cont i have issues with. 04:44:37 hehe 04:44:48 needs a beta reduction with the alpha one. 04:44:51 and it'll be fine. 04:45:21 damn gensyms 04:46:22 how about not using CPS at all! The arnesi interpreter is quite nice, as is pkhuong's mlet* and friends. 04:46:56 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 04:47:02 drewc: then we need something like *ragel* 04:47:15 hehe. 04:48:35 v0|d: only useful if you know in advance which states you can have. 04:48:59 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:49:20 play once and it'll learn. 04:49:30 in theory, one can transform call/cc using web code to a FSM. In practice... no way no how. 04:50:58 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:51:09 fsms are cool. 04:51:15 is it hard to learn common lisp and then also learn scheme? Or does learning one make it easier to learn the other? 04:51:48 one of my more amusing CL programs takes a sexp representation of a FSM (executable code) and can either execute the code on a text file or use graphviz to print a diagram of it 04:51:51 you won't have problems learning scheme. 04:53:06 emma: it's useful to learn both at the same time IMO, if only to understand why they are different. However, if you know lisp scheme is easy... and vice-versa to a point. 04:53:19 okay cool 04:53:26 (ignoring continuations, TCO and all the things that make scheme scheme) 04:54:03 right now i sort of feel like there is a lot to memorize. 04:54:07 i learned a lot more about lisp from reading the LAMBDA papers than any other source personally. 04:54:12 emma: don't memorize. Use. 04:54:19 emma: what sykopomp said. 04:54:25 emma: go through PCL, because it'll help you -familiarize- yourself with what you're going to do. 04:54:37 Good morning everyone! 04:54:38 oh okay 04:54:43 when you get to the boring chapters (the ones with all the practicals), just go code something of your own, and use references heavily. 04:54:51 memorization will come naturally. 04:54:53 i was trying to memorize all the functions, operators, and macros in PCL 04:54:56 oh, and learn to browse the spec. 04:55:01 the spec will provide 04:55:37 I spent all day working through chapter three, doing it in my own slime, to be sure I understand it. 04:55:46 that's fine 04:55:46 emma: don't bother... memorisation is not the way to do. It's like playing an instrument... memorising all the chord shapes will not make you a good guitar player. 04:55:52 but don't worry about being able to do it in your sleep 04:56:01 okay 04:56:05 just do it so it's no longer foreign 04:56:12 okay 04:56:20 practice, and read other peoples code. 04:56:35 and ask questions when you can't find the answer (but -look- for the answer first) 04:56:51 and don't read drewc's code 04:56:55 :P 04:56:57 that last one will get you far 04:57:05 (he's right though...) 04:57:13 if i install sbcl through clbuild, does it install with threading enabled? 04:57:23 felideon: it should yeah. 04:57:29 felideon: on linux? 04:57:33 osx 04:57:47 drewc: clbuild would work so much better if people actually used their master branches exclusively for releases... 04:57:49 new ClearTrip product :-) http://www.cleartripforbusiness.com/ 04:57:58 hrm ... not sure then. you might have to explicity enable them 04:58:32 why does cleartrip look so much like Kayak? 04:59:21 :) 04:59:25 is travel planning to modern CL what AI was to old CL or something? 05:00:13 sykopomp: not just planning either... the entire process (reservation, inventory etc) :) 05:00:56 drewc: i have to enable them and then recompile, righ? 05:01:21 felideon: right, if they're not there. 05:01:33 don't quote me on them not being there, as i don't mac :) 05:01:46 -!- clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:01:48 drewc: alright. i'll let you know once it's done compiling 05:02:21 felideon: nearly every travel site looks like kayak now. see travel.bing.com :-) 05:02:42 and ppl don't know Lisp is behind it all! 05:02:55 those guys, cleartrip, gave us cl-memcached btw :-) 05:02:55 so what's the big thing (revolutionary as opposed to evolutionary) being work on sbcl atm, if any? 05:03:24 DeusExPikachu: +1 for the name 05:04:11 fusss, ah my ol' highschool alias... 05:04:15 huangjs [n=user@p2162-ipbf6607marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:04:56 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:05:05 I am the mideast sales man for Deux Ex Machina motorcycles 05:05:27 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:05:56 check 'em out (flash site) www.deus.com.au/ 05:06:03 what a coincidence, I came up with the name after playing the game Deus Ex back in highschool 2001, I also played pokemon at the time obviously 05:07:09 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:07:39 drewc: how's cltl3 coming along, anyways? 05:08:28 fusss, site looks nice 05:08:47 setf is a cool function 05:08:52 sykopomp: i just got back into it yesterday after a bit of a break. Trying to get a charter together. If you're not on the cltl3-devel list, join in and make yourself heard 05:08:57 setf is not a function. 05:08:58 emma: it's not a function, it's a macro. 05:09:02 clhds setf 05:09:04 it's a super-magical macro made of love 05:09:08 clhs setf 05:09:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_setf.htm 05:09:18 DeusExPikachu: one of the few bikes on appear on tens of hollywood action flicks without a dime being paid for product placement 05:09:24 i think after i finish reading/working through chapter 3 i should try to make my own rudimentary CL program 05:09:32 drewc: I'll jump in then. 05:09:39 oh i thought it was a function. 05:09:42 drewc: I'm tempted to express my newfound love and adoration for alexandria 05:09:47 why can't it be considered a function? 05:09:50 sykopomp: it's been fun so far :) 05:09:51 That would require first class places. 05:10:03 Consider (setf (cdr a) b) 05:10:10 Were setf a function would values would it receive? 05:10:39 emma: it processes the code. *basically*, it takes (setf (foo x y z) value) and converts it to (funcall '(setf foo) value x y z) 05:10:42 I have no idea what you mean by 'first class places' .How could I. 05:11:05 emma: Consider (setf (cdr a) b) -- Were setf a function would values would it receive? 05:11:07 macros write code before it's run, functions run code. 05:11:35 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:11:36 oh i see. hmm.. that's perhaps the very first explanation i have heard which makes clear sense. 05:12:26 emma: that's pretty much what it does, too. You could define (setf (cdr x) value) with (defun (setf cdr) (value x) (set-value-of-cdr x value)) 05:12:49 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:59 ok so how do I know SBCL was compiled with threads enabled? :) 05:13:09 it's a neat trick that gets you lots of mileage, specially once you start messing around with CLOS 05:13:25 felideon: (member :sb-thread *features) 05:13:27 -!- pragma_ [n=pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 05:14:15 *features is unbound 05:14:18 *features* 05:14:25 pragma_ [n=pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has joined #lisp 05:14:29 sykopomp, is defining setf functions just another macro or is it like an operator, builtin to the system? 05:14:52 Think of it as a 'setf namespace' 05:14:57 ok :sb-thread is listed, right there 05:15:13 felideon: yay! 05:15:19 indeed :) 05:15:20 Zhivago, in terms of implementation 05:15:26 DeusExPikachu: it's builtin. (setf foo) is a valid function name. 05:15:40 wow, it installed SBCL 1.0.31.2 05:15:47 it expands in pretty neat ways, too. 05:15:51 whereas on the website it says 1.0.30 is the latest 05:16:14 clbuild comes with a custom time machine 05:16:25 ok, cause otherwise I could write macros that did something similar and it'd have to override defun somehow 05:16:50 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/05_abe.htm When I read this, my mind was blown. 05:16:54 Adlai`` [n=adlai@93-172-5-84.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 05:16:58 minion: clhs defsetf 05:16:58 you speak nonsense 05:17:03 clhs defsetf 05:17:03 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defset.htm 05:17:28 sykopomp: what's wrong? 05:17:47 benny [n=benny@i577A1750.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:17:52 stassats`: nothing. When you think about it, that's exactly what would be expected. I had just never thought of it until I read that page. 05:18:08 it had never occured to me that I could setf an apply. 05:18:25 morganb [n=user@wsip-98-188-196-29.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:06 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has joined #lisp 05:21:15 aref is nice like that, too. 05:21:24 drewc: installing lisp-on-lines 05:21:31 lisp is -magical- 05:21:32 not sure how far i'll go with that :) 05:21:48 -!- cads [n=max@c-24-30-105-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:22:20 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:23:50 emma: would you mind blogging web development in lisp? 05:24:34 is "(defun (setf blah blah" documented in clhs? I see it in pcl 05:24:34 felideon: http://common-lisp.net/project/lisp-on-lines/repo/lisp-on-lines/doc/manual.html will get you started... but it won't get you far... you'd need my help for that. 05:24:55 (setf foo) as a function designator is documented. 05:25:06 drewc: well i'm glad you're a nice guy then! 05:25:08 Or something like that. 05:25:20 extended function designator 05:25:33 drewc: heck, i'll even start a posterous blog 05:25:43 function name 05:25:57 felideon: it'd be cool if you did :) 05:26:21 we need someone in ucw and lol land who has the time to blog about it :) 05:26:43 haha. yeah, i dont have the time but I do like writing 05:27:04 so we'll see if i can keep at it 05:29:51 felideon: if you want to do webapps, i suggest starting with UCW first, as LoL uses UCW for dealing with the web side of things 05:30:05 drewc: wouldn't it be a good idea to have 'inheritable' global variables when you have a threaded environment? (no, I don't know) 05:30:32 (as in, globals that are actually global across threads) 05:31:20 sykopomp: threading semantics is going to be a long and sordid fight i think 05:31:52 drewc: you're sticking to basically whatever bt provides right now, too, right? 05:32:59 sykopomp, Is sbcl's defglobal global across threads? 05:33:12 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-26-190.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:33:43 dwh: I don't know, actually. 05:34:18 sykopomp, I should've been less lazy. It seems that the answer is yes. 05:34:37 drewc, Would defglobal be appropriate for cltl3? 05:34:52 drewc, Or at least something with similar semantics? 05:34:57 what are the semantics of defglobal? 05:35:06 sykopomp: initially, yes... we really just want consistent support for the minimal set of features needed to do threading. 05:35:17 dwh: indeed, absolutely. 05:35:26 if you are in need of STM, defglobal is not the way to go 05:35:54 STM is certainly _not_ appropriate for CLtL3 05:35:56 :) 05:36:03 guaqua: stuff like that should live in libraries, imo 05:36:07 drewc: true 05:36:23 i'd just like to hear what defglobal would be used for? 05:36:32 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 05:36:34 morning 05:36:53 having consistent threading support would certainly provide a lot of encouragement wrt new parallelization-related libraries 05:37:09 it's good to be able to choose. 05:37:33 I was messing around with csp, for example, and it was quite nice. 05:37:47 I should try and write something with it, then try to improve it. 05:37:48 ya, exactly. CLtL3 is aimed more at providing library writers with enough support to go nuts. 05:37:59 is there a lot of deprecation? 05:38:06 almost none 05:38:14 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit ["off"] 05:38:24 drewc: is there anything you have in mind already that will have to be deprecated?? 05:38:58 should these new constructs be first tried - before including them into cltl3 - or is cltl3 such a testing platform too? 05:39:39 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@95.65.240.91] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:39:40 the cltl3 draft charter is here: http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/cltl3-devel/2009-August/000017.html 05:39:44 dwh_ [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:22 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:40:49 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:40:51 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:40:54 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:12 sykopomp: pathnames... i think we're going to try and cut our losses there :P 05:41:17 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-101-220.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:41:18 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 05:41:33 drewc: hehehe 05:41:49 ouch, that's going to be hard. the vms guys will go nuts 05:42:30 looks great, is there a timeline and progress somewhere, to give us an idea of what needs to be done, etc? 05:42:44 DeusExPikachu: you'll have to read the ML 05:42:47 guaqua: cltl3 is not a testing platform at all... mainly it's meant to define a minimum of features that we think a modern description of CL should have. 05:43:13 drewc: so a construct such as defglobal would need to be tested separately? 05:43:17 guaqua: the functionality will still be there, just not perhaps with identical specification and behavior 05:43:17 sykopomp, sorry, ML stands for? 05:43:23 DeusExPikachu: mailing list 05:44:54 guaqua: right... as it is being tested in sbcl right now :) 05:45:25 drewc: okay, you see my ignorance here :) 05:47:19 basically, i'd be happy if we can have defglobal and make accessing the value of a special variable binding across threads undefined... that's a bare minimum, but might be enough to do useful work :) 05:47:43 this is why i don't like clojure: http://ericlavigne.wordpress.com/2009/01/04/compojure-security-authentication-and-authorization/ 05:47:45 wow this is recent stuff... at least publicly 05:48:02 that's the recommended authorization way in use with Compojure, btw 05:48:09 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:10 -!- dwh_ [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:49:06 it's like anybody with a year of CL can launch a fantastic career as a clojure consultant teaching these people how to do things IRL 05:49:28 thunk` [n=user@74-130-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 05:49:45 I hope they don't listen too much. 05:49:48 omg 05:49:49 fusss: you are referring to the one hard-coded password? 05:49:51 that's too long. 05:49:53 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:49:54 if that example was in PHP the interwebs would be on its collective back laughing 05:49:56 -!- thunk` [n=user@74-130-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has left #lisp 05:50:12 no, to the whole URL-rewriting based security architecture 05:50:13 i'm happy that i'm not into compoju* 05:50:30 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:51:38 a generation of misguided enthusiasts are discovering lisp, java and the web all at the same time, and their work is heading straight to the live wire 05:51:56 The best thing that could happen to lisp. 05:52:23 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@75-138-213-210.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:53:11 compojoure looks like something they have in ruby and python 05:53:16 just different syntax 05:53:32 gko [n=gko@114-137-46-245.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:53:32 Good. 05:53:35 compojure looks like a barf to anybody who has seen hunchentoot's api 05:53:40 gko` [n=gko@114-137-46-245.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:55:06 http://github.com/weavejester/compojure/blob/4d6dbb1a1210ae09d84537e043e3bdbecd896f86/README.markdown 05:55:16 compare the syntax to define-easy-handler, for example 05:57:42 -!- GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:01:34 So the feeling is that the average quality (weighted by actual use) of clojure libraries is likely to be lower than that of cl libraries? Or what? And does that matter for clojure developers (assuming there are any)? 06:02:04 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:02:17 I like to pretend that clojure doesn't exist and/or is a big joke/ploy developed by clever c.l.l. trolls. 06:02:27 the question is -- am I really pretending? 06:02:30 splittist: yes, way way lower; and it doesn't seem to matter to the growing number of (clojurists?) 06:02:51 clojure is good and needs to be saved 06:02:53 it need CLOS RSN 06:02:59 Give it time, it's at 0.2 06:03:02 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:03:07 it's at 1.0 06:03:24 Sorry, I was referring to compojure.. 06:03:32 fusss: will hitting it with a sledgehammer help 'save' it? 06:03:35 fusss: interesting 06:04:06 sykopomp: i would want a very lispy clojure should i ever need the jvm 06:04:14 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:04:22 fusss: abcl, ofc 06:04:41 clojurites? clojurians? 06:05:26 sykopomp: i meant, "when i the jvm" .. as a clojure consultant, biyatch! ;-) 06:05:42 hehehe :P 06:08:32 p0a [n=user@athedsl-382808.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 06:09:02 hello 06:09:09 I've written this http://paste.lisp.org/display/86413 06:09:18 Which allows me to read n bytes of k bits from an input stream 06:09:26 So if one of the great benefits of clojure is that you get to use all the industrial-strength Java libraries, what is the point - or, rather, the niche - of clojure libraries? 06:10:08 Does anyone notice a bug in that function? 06:10:15 beacuse it doesn't exhibit correct behavior in some instances 06:10:40 Adlai``` [n=adlai@85-250-226-149.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 06:10:54 I might write (with-open-file (s "foo") (read-nbytes 10 :stream s)) but I won't get a big integer as I expect -- only a small one about four-five digits long 06:11:07 It works with smaller values such as (read-nbytes 2 :stream s) etc. 06:11:24 I guess that would be "clojurers", in parallel to "conjure". 06:12:08 deepfire: Thanks for the McCLIM patches! 06:12:42 <_3b> p0a: (byte bits b) maybe? 06:12:49 beach, I've got a question wrt. the image-viewer example 06:13:07 _3b: whoops... I thought you provided a range to (byte). It wasn't quite apparent with the two examples on clhs 06:13:12 with (byte 8 0) and (byte 8 8) 06:13:21 wait -- it is. nevermind. thanks _3b 06:14:02 what would be with :bits 10? 06:14:13 _3b: it still doesn't exhibit correct behavior though 06:14:16 *_3b* just typed "(byte" and looked at the minibuffer to see what the args do 06:14:37 (byte bits b) 06:14:39 where will bits go with :bits 6? 06:14:52 stassats`: where? what do you mean? 06:15:03 <_3b> p0a: actually, i guess you did want (- b bits), since you stop at bits 06:15:17 beach, its handle-repaint tries to paper over backends failing to DRAW-PATTERN*. This, in particular, papers over missing method on medium-draw-image-design*. I don't think this obscuring add anything -- better expose the error. What do you think/ 06:15:20 ? 06:15:31 p0a: well, read-byte reads 8 bits, and you throw 2 bits away then 06:16:10 <_3b> p0a: for the second arg that is, so (byte bits (- b bits)) 06:16:33 deepfire: I tend to agree with you. Feel free to modify it. 06:16:33 <_3b> p0a: (and that is assuming you have the byte order correct, but can't tell that form the code) 06:16:45 _3b: the byte order is wrong. I'm fixing that now 06:16:51 stassats`: you're right. What should i do about that? 06:16:53 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.21.182] has joined #lisp 06:16:53 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.21.182] has left #lisp 06:17:07 stassats`: I thought READ-BYTE reads the :element-type of the stream 06:17:29 *_3b* assumed the :bits arg was for streams where a byte wasn't 8 bits :p 06:17:46 so that the user can open with :element-type '(unsigned-byte 6) and then use (read-nbytes 10 :stream stream :bits 6) 06:18:05 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:18:15 p0a: right, so why not determine bits count from the stream? 06:18:45 stassats`: because of the LDB calculations...? 06:19:32 Is there a function that tells me the :element-type of a stream? I can omit the :bits key then and simply use that inside the READ-NBYTES function 06:19:38 why do you need them? 06:19:44 <_3b> clhs stream-element-type 06:19:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_stm_el.htm 06:19:46 clhs stream-element-typ 06:19:46 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for stream-element-typ. 06:21:02 So I can't get the ad-hoc-view example for clouchdb to work 06:21:21 stassats`: the LDB calculations? I need to erad some headers and tags and all that stuff 06:21:23 And I don't think it is parenscript, because when I feed it a string of javascript, I get the same error: invalid json. 06:22:42 *_3b* gave up on c(l)ouchdb, not enough flexibility in queries :( 06:22:54 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:23:00 _3b: what do you use instead? 06:23:04 hello 06:23:17 _3b: I really need a good tuple store 06:23:35 <_3b> rpc calls to ht doing postmodern queries 06:23:40 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-27-50.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 06:23:53 <_3b> not saying it is generally bad idea, just didn't fit my needs 06:24:19 <_3b> if i have to write a middle layer to handle queries, i might as well do it in sql :) 06:24:20 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:24:39 aha! 06:24:50 <_3b> also didn't help that flash doesn't do REST very well 06:24:55 sykopomp: aha what? do you bring me salvations? 06:24:57 Apparently, symbolics.com was the internet's first registered domain name. 06:25:10 <_3b> sykopomp: and was recently sold, we know :p 06:25:11 for *the* Symbolics. 06:25:14 aw :( 06:25:33 can't miss a beat with this interwebs thing. 06:26:10 How do I convert between endianness representations? 06:26:42 (reverse *my-bits*) :D 06:26:58 <_3b> just swap the bytes around, or read/write them in the opposite order 06:27:57 sykopomp: that works presumably with bit vectors 06:28:05 not integers 06:28:09 But I have another solution 06:28:17 I'll modify read-nbytes to read in the proper order 06:28:43 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:28:57 -!- Adlai`` [n=adlai@93-172-5-84.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:29:06 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:29:35 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:29:36 also, you can't expect support of arbitrary element-type 06:30:19 Maybe I should work with unsigned-byte 8 only. 06:30:49 I'll redesign read-nbytes. I'll make it read in order of appreance, and then, I'll do byte swapping with SHIFTF 06:31:21 -!- zoldar [n=zoldar@kyh66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:32:26 <_3b> p0a: why not just assemble them in the correct order? 06:33:24 That's funny. Stored views work fine... 06:34:07 p0a: do you know of bit-streams? 06:34:25 sexybaaron [n=sexybaar@c-68-35-162-209.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:34:28 you can read a stream bit by bit without having to read full octets 06:34:32 _3b: I don't know what the correct order yet is -- I have to experiment 06:34:52 -!- sexybaaron [n=sexybaar@c-68-35-162-209.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:34:57 fusss: Really? that is convenient 06:35:09 Beacuse there's some 1-bit flags or 2-bit flags in the tags I'm reading 06:35:14 p0a: courtesy of the Xach http://common-lisp.net/project/clbuild/mirror/skippy/bitstream.lisp 06:35:32 p0a: are you trying to read flash swf files? 06:35:36 yes 06:35:38 <_3b> what are you parsing? 06:35:40 HAHAHAHAHA 06:35:46 wow 06:35:48 what is it? 06:36:21 *_3b* wonders if releasing my .swf code would be helpful or counterproductive in its current state :p 06:36:26 how did I know? yes, i used bit-streams to parse swf files. the nbits record (just 5 bits that encode the length of the tag) are a bitch 06:36:39 hehe 06:36:56 _3b: i have a version of your code from last November 06:37:01 Well to be precise I'm reading/parsing the FLV format, not SWF... 06:37:12 p0a: good job! 06:37:21 i gave up on mine as a skeleton 06:37:22 :) say it when its done 06:37:46 <_3b> fusss: no, the .swf parser/writer, not the compiler 06:38:10 oh 06:38:16 <_3b> fairly complete, but horrible code 06:38:35 flash lisp was in vogue about 1.5 years ago 06:39:26 <_3b> CL is still underrepresented in flash lisps, /me needs to release more code :p 06:40:13 i am not sure if I wrote swfgen.lisp or if it was given to me by someone 06:40:50 i think i did it; it renders some primitive SVG to flash; not sure what was the point 06:41:16 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 06:41:19 <_3b> hmm, not sure if my stuff would handle .flv or not, i definitely didn't bother with all the fiddly pieces of video data, i think they had stuff described down to the macroblock level or something silly like that 06:41:25 _3b: i remember you and me where the flash guys here for a while :-D 06:41:53 *_3b* can render svg to flash, vecto to flash, flash to flash 06:41:56 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-133-100.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 06:42:01 noice 06:43:36 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:43:53 *_3b* can also kill win32 sbcl compiling the mess 06:44:04 good morning 06:46:25 win32 sbcl :-( 06:46:32 clozure caught up with it just nicely 06:46:39 even if the later can't run hunchentoot yet 06:46:54 <_3b> yeah, i'd probably be using that if i hadn't switched back to linux for the moment 06:47:48 sigh 06:49:13 yeah, about windows sbcl vs ccl: a few days ago i mentioned here that code doing a lot of ffi calls was running faster with sbcl on linux on a slow machine than on ccl on windows on a fast machine 06:49:44 aerique: sbcl has a better compiler, hands down 06:49:51 fusss: how so? 06:49:51 *stassats`* runs hunchentoot on clozure 06:50:25 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:50:38 i was able to test with sbcl on that faster machine yesterday and it was quite a bit faster than ccl, but i haven't specifically drilled down into the exact cause yet 06:50:52 stassats`: python is the best lisp compiler out there; clozure is fast but sbcl generates tighter code. 06:50:54 <_3b> 'better' seems a bit too general, i'd expect sbcl to generate better code though 06:51:07 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-12.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:51:21 <_3b> 'uses too much memory' or 'takes too long to compile' aren't particularly 'better' :) 06:51:38 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-382808.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 06:51:38 fusss: why are you telling me this? 06:51:50 stassats`: because you asked me "how so?" 06:51:50 fusss: i'm curious whether the slowdown for my code is in the generic cl code or in the ffi calls which are used a lot 06:51:59 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 06:52:12 lispm [n=joswig@e177127254.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:52:16 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@75-138-213-210.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:52:19 fusss: you get messages in the wrong order, i asked about hunchentoot 06:52:52 oh, brb 06:55:02 no_mind_ [i=7aa3dc82@gateway/web/freenode/x-ipnvkclusqucqklu] has joined #lisp 06:55:22 hi 06:55:31 I am a new lisp convert 06:55:41 cads [n=max@c-24-30-105-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:58 no_mind_: welcome! 06:56:37 -!- no_mind_ is now known as no_mind 06:56:54 what did you use before? 06:57:01 any examples of web apps written in lisp 06:57:15 used C, C++, java, perl, PHP and python 06:57:16 lisppaste: url? 06:57:16 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 06:57:22 is written in lisp 06:58:01 err... I meant app for whcih I can view the source 06:58:06 you can 06:58:24 "Source" at the bottom 06:59:27 anyone on windows check out the okra demo i mentioned last night? 06:59:37 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:01:04 thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:01:24 clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 07:02:00 <_3b> mogunus`: it looks like couchdb wants the same setup for temp views as for normal views, object with language=javascript, map=function, etc 07:03:43 _3b: interesting. looking at the current clouchdb code, it doesn't seem to give that in the request 07:04:08 <_3b> mogunus`: like (ad-hoc-view "{ \"language\":\"javascript\", \"map\":\"function(doc) { emit(null, doc);}\"}")) 07:05:02 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 07:05:25 amazing! 07:05:35 _3b: you rock. I was missing the language key. 07:05:42 had the map: 07:06:05 ugh... this isn't mentioned on the couchdb wiki page I was looking at. what's your souirce for that wonderful information? 07:06:54 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:06:55 <_3b> random google search that found a piece of what looks like unit tests or something, with some temp views in it :p 07:07:14 yay! ugh. couchdb docs leave something to be desired... 07:07:35 <_3b> they probably assume you would do temp views from the web interface anyway :) 07:08:39 but my repl is so much nicer :-) 07:09:05 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-27-50.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:10:14 should get myself on their mailing list so I can keep clouchdb current with this manner of thing 07:10:47 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:10:59 Adlai```` [n=adlai@85.250.193.255] has joined #lisp 07:12:19 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:12:48 amaron [n=amaron@93.86.161.198] has joined #lisp 07:12:57 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:14:41 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:14:48 fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 07:16:39 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.237.25] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:18:57 ASau [n=user@host180-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:25:12 fgtech^ [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 07:25:16 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 07:25:30 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 07:26:56 prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:45 -!- Adlai``` [n=adlai@85-250-226-149.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:29:17 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 07:30:27 -!- mogunus` [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:30:35 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:30:39 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 07:32:30 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:35:32 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:36:10 -!- fgtech^ is now known as fgtech 07:36:51 nvntung [n=user@147.210.246.189] has joined #lisp 07:37:48 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 07:40:33 -!- amaron [n=amaron@93.86.161.198] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:40:39 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:40:40 ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 07:45:13 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:45:28 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 07:46:12 -!- nvntung [n=user@147.210.246.189] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:50:16 Good morning everyone! 07:51:40 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:51:51 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:52:26 <_3b> spiaggia: did you ever figure out your opengl text drawing? 07:52:41 hello spiaggia 07:52:50 <_3b> (not that i have any particular good suggestions if not) 07:53:12 <_3b> aside from possibly some code for makjing textures out of vecto canvases 07:53:26 htk_ [n=htk___@95.65.240.91] has joined #lisp 07:55:11 *deepfire* looks around for lichtblau 07:55:13 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-108-139.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:56:56 tczy [n=tczy@78.60.36.72] has joined #lisp 07:59:47 _3b: Not me. I don't know much about it. nvntung is going to have to look a bit more on his own. We were also thinking of contacting moore33, because he knows a lot both about Lisp and about OpenGL. 08:00:03 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:01:08 weareyourfriend [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 08:01:11 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6ED0D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:27 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-113-245.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 08:02:29 hmm, I'm wanting to get into 3D programming, but I really don't know much of it at all. I do have some basic experience in 2D games, but not really that much. Of course I do want to get into 3D in the context of Common Lisp :), what path should I take? 08:02:40 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 08:02:47 minion: okra? 08:02:47 okra: Okra provides CFFI bindings to the Ogre 3D graphics engine. http://www.cliki.net/okra 08:02:55 minion: cl-opengl? 08:02:55 cl-opengl: cl-opengl is a set of CFFI bindings to the OpenGL, GLU and GLUT APIs. http://www.cliki.net/cl-opengl 08:03:05 thanks 08:03:14 np 08:03:30 is it possible to let emacs lisp eval something returned by a slime connected CL? 08:04:05 weareyourfriend: I would go with cl-opengl. I'm the author of Okra and I wouldn't really recommend it yet, especially if you have little experience with both 3D programming and CL. 08:04:14 <_3b> spiaggia: working on anything interesting? 08:04:30 lharc: yes, considering slime does exactly that. 08:05:16 _3b: Me? Not since my CLIM application for helping me learn Vietnamese. nvntung is working on an application for simulations of chemical processes in cells. 08:05:24 _3b: What about you? 08:05:55 <_3b> spiaggia: i meant whoever was doing whatever was in opengl :) both sound interesting though 08:06:00 sykopomp: the CL side is returning elisp? 08:06:29 minion: cl-glfw? 08:06:30 cl-glfw: Is a public domain set of CFFI bindings for the GLFW library (http://glfw.sf.net/) for Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/cl-glfw 08:06:40 <_3b> i'm trying to finish up my app for learning japanese, then trying to get cl-opengl caught up to gl 3.2 08:06:57 weareyourfriend: check cl-glfw as well 08:07:26 <_3b> weareyourfriend: but just use the glfw parts, use cl-opengl for the gl parts :p 08:07:28 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 08:07:40 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:08:12 _3b: Oh, you should let nvntung know about that because he chose not to use cl-opengl (in favor of cl-glfw) because he thought it was no longer supported or developed. 08:08:16 spiaggia: I'd be interested to hear more about what nvtnung is working on 08:08:56 <_3b> spiaggia: as far as i know, cl-opengl is a tiny bit more actively developed than cl-glfw, not that either has done much recently 08:09:10 <_3b> spiaggia: if i can find some time, cl-opengl will be getting more work soon though 08:09:11 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:09:24 _3b: That would be great! 08:09:38 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 08:09:56 you're sure it isn't dead? 08:09:56 <_3b> cl-glfw is still worth looking at for the platform specific parts of using GL 08:10:08 <_3b> hefner: which? 08:10:09 slyrus_: As I recall, they try to use actor-like semantics to simulate individual molecules like enzymes and other chemicals inside a cell so see whether they get some results that look like what happens in real life. 08:16:48 Xach: ping 08:17:07 hefner, can I ask you about gtkairo event handling? 08:17:11 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:15 deepfire: I don't know much about it. Better to ask lichtblau. 08:19:28 matley [n=matley@193.204.39.77] has joined #lisp 08:19:56 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:20:00 I know, I'm trying to cram moar work in this sleep cycle.. 08:20:04 I can skim the code and try to make an educated guess, if it would be helpful. 08:20:26 arbscht [n=arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 08:21:07 HG` [n=HG@89.166.249.111] has joined #lisp 08:22:44 Ok, actually thinking through the question made it resolve itself, thanks! :-) 08:23:42 That's probably a step beyond telepathic debugging -- telepathic consulting :-) 08:25:02 -!- tczy [n=tczy@78.60.36.72] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 08:26:26 hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 08:27:28 nvntung [n=user@147.210.246.189] has joined #lisp 08:27:54 good morning every one 08:28:04 metawilm [n=willem@e179148116.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:28:28 hello nvntung 08:28:33 sykopomp: think swank:eval-and-grab-output is what I'm looking for 08:28:49 nvntung: Check the logs; _3b is planning to do work on cl-opengl. 08:29:18 <_3b> lharc: see also swank::eval-in-emacs 08:29:57 ignas_ [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 08:29:57 _3b: thanks 08:30:28 <_3b> lharc: no idea how it works, beyond that it exists and i think you need to specifically enable it in emacs/slime 08:31:34 <_3b> and apparently trying it without enabling it breaks the connection :p 08:31:43 -!- gko [n=gko@114-137-46-245.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:31:46 -!- gko` [n=gko@114-137-46-245.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:34:09 -!- ASau [n=user@host180-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:34:48 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:34:49 spiaggia: I have a bit of code in CL (when (null *message*) (return nil)). This code is corresponding in C as like if (!message) return false. I met an error message "return for unknown block: NIL (RETURN-FROM NIL)". What does it mean? 08:35:00 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:35:15 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 08:35:16 nvntung: you need to have a block named NIL to be able to use NIL. 08:35:46 You might try: (defun foo () (return-from foo nil)) instead. 08:36:03 defun automatically generates a block named as the function around the body of the function. 08:36:05 Or maybe (block nil ...) 08:36:28 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-64-253.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:36:44 nvntung: also, some forms such as dolist generate a block named NIL, so you can RETURN from them. 08:37:05 clhs block 08:37:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_block.htm 08:37:37 nvntung: what matimago said. 08:38:14 spiaggia: I am following him. Thanks! 08:38:27 nvntung: an alternative might be to use: (when *message* ..) using the fact that WHEN returns nil if the test fails; thought that does not exit the function of course 08:38:37 nvntung: When asking questions like that, it is better not to direct them to a particular person, so that anyone who wants can answer. 08:38:49 isn't that code a bit off tho? use WHEN directly or IF or even COND instead? 08:39:30 nvntung: hypno is right; you usually don't program like that in Common Lisp. 08:40:02 nvntung: You would say (if (null *message*) nil ...) and put the rest of the code where the ... are located. 08:40:22 nvntung: If you lisppaste your code, you can get immediate feedback on the style. 08:43:24 ASau [n=user@host180-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 08:43:50 spiaggia: I thought you were a fellow advocate of the (and *message* ...) style 08:44:50 nvntung pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86419 08:46:48 <_3b> nvntung: is that cl-sdl? 08:46:51 gko [n=gko@114-137-46-245.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:14 <_3b> nvntung: if so, you might want to try lispbuilder-sdl instead 08:47:24 well, i would say that is okay in this case, but the code is fairly uninterresting as far as CL is concerned: it reflects the C API and forces you into checking for corner cases. 08:47:28 _3b: yes, I want to build a function to draw string. 08:47:45 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229078248.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:48:16 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:48:31 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 08:48:59 _3d: I'm using cl-glfw in my project. cl-glfw doesn't support to draw string. Thus sdl-ttf is a good solution. 08:50:42 <_3b> nvntung: as far as i know, cl-sdl is unmaintained, so lisbuilder-sdl bindings might be a better choice 08:51:20 gko` [n=gko@114-137-46-245.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:00 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:53:03 if you use opengl, you should use freetype to render a text textures and use quads to draw your strings 08:53:29 you could even use cl-vectors and zpb-ttf 08:53:31 it allows you to do a lot of nice effects 08:53:49 This is link of the original functions in C: http://paste.lisp.org/display/86420 08:53:57 -!- gko` [n=gko@114-137-46-245.dynamic.hinet.net] has left #lisp 08:54:08 hefner: I don't mind that style, but I probably wouldn't produce it automatically. 08:55:20 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@wavelan-96.vlan-109.publik.su.se] has joined #lisp 08:55:47 gko` [n=gko@114-137-46-245.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:53 nvntung: There are several problems with that code. For one thing, use -1 rather than (- 1) 08:56:01 nvntung: https://sharesource.org/hg/gtr/ 08:56:07 -!- gko` [n=gko@114-137-46-245.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:56:08 For another, you cannot compare numbers with eq. Use eql or =. 08:56:14 some time ago, I wrote opengl text rendering in C 08:56:25 -!- gko [n=gko@114-137-46-245.dynamic.hinet.net] has left #lisp 08:56:33 far from perfect, but it works, supports multiple charsets 08:56:38 et it's fast (vbo) 08:57:03 *_3b* grumbles about people using https for no reason, then using certs firefox doesn't like :p 08:57:14 gko [n=gko@114.137.46.245] has joined #lisp 08:57:21 grumble about firefox then 08:57:27 *antifuchs* grumbles about cacert in general 08:57:49 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:58:11 galdor: btw, your cert is expired. no way any browser isn't going to complain about it (: 08:58:13 younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 08:58:33 it's not mine, it's sharesource's 08:58:38 public code repository 08:58:47 ah, heh 08:59:33 (it's LGPL but I don't care, use what you want) 09:01:19 aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host59-46-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:01:40 Can we integate the text module of glut into cl-glfw? 09:02:18 <_3b> if you want glut, you would probably be better with cl-opengl 09:03:27 <_3b> i don't think you can use glut text support without the rest of glut though 09:03:50 I have same idea to galdor that we should use a freetype to render textures. cl-glfw has already functions to draw strings 09:04:44 <_3b> using freetype to create textures is a reasonable solution 09:05:01 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.28.192] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:05:02 <_3b> (assuming you have freetype bindings) 09:05:04 glut solves the problems windows, mouse and keyboards... and manything. 09:05:16 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 09:05:25 I want to have a module to operate freetype bindings 09:05:28 in a modern pipeline, you use vbos, ibos, shaders, etc. 09:05:28 if you want a purely-lisp solution, you can use cl-vectors and zpb-ttf to render truetype fonts to bitmaps for use as textures 09:05:32 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@90.149.117.111] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:05:48 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:05:52 <_3b> you can use vecto also, instead of using cl-vectors and zpb-ttf directly 09:06:06 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@90.149.117.111] has joined #lisp 09:06:15 and if you want to support arbitrary font sizes and charsets, you have to generate the textures in memory 09:06:17 sure, but then you get a png file; no idea which format cl-glfw expects for textures (: 09:06:36 <_3b> antifuchs: nah, skip the png part and grab the data directly :) 09:06:48 *_3b* isn't afraid of using :: 09:06:51 in fact, glfw (as well cl-glfw) supported operations on OpenGL. The rest issue is to display text 09:07:16 _3b: well, I am (: 09:07:49 Reav___ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 09:07:59 lat__ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 09:08:05 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 09:08:26 morning 09:08:40 morning Xof 09:09:33 Hi Xof 09:12:24 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 09:14:19 -!- gko [n=gko@114.137.46.245] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:14:50 antifuchs: zpb-ttf has a limitation is not to produce bitmaps. 09:15:54 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 09:16:03 nvntung: may i ask what you are doing with glfw, etc? a game? 09:16:23 nvntung: that's why I use cl-vectors with it 09:16:35 cl-vectors generates bitmaps from path info, e.g. from zpb-ttf 09:16:52 gko [n=gko@114-137-46-245.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:01 If someone already answered this, sorry. I got cut off from the Internet immediately after asking. How can I get emacs 23 to read the clhs from my harddrive instead of from the Internet? 09:17:39 C-h a hyperspec RET and read documentation 09:18:22 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [] 09:19:27 hypno: I am doing with cl-glfw to draw bio graph. The issue I have met is to draw label. This is a small task in my project. I cant spend many time to develop my owned module. 09:19:38 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:20:03 I will pay attention to these libraries. 09:20:17 lat__, http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Documentation.html .. i.e., (setq common-lisp-hyperspec-root "/home/blah..") 09:23:41 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 09:23:59 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:24:15 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 09:24:39 Xof and lnostdal . thanks! 09:26:34 Many thanks to all's ideas 09:29:53 nvntung: well, if by label you just mean some simple text, "glutBitmapHelvetica18()" has been working good enough for me to create a GL lisp repl, heh. 09:29:54 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:30:08 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 09:30:10 ln51 [n=Adium@nordutug-gw.nordu.net] has joined #lisp 09:31:15 hypno: that's right. I need a simple text. And glutBitmapCharacter in glut is useful. 09:31:58 cl-opengl has the glut module named cl-opengl-glut. 09:33:03 OK,, mathML does't wor properly under google crome (yet) 09:33:33 guess I'm back to firefox 09:34:15 I even tried to build from scratch (source) 09:34:34 later.. 09:34:54 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:35:29 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 09:39:25 I want to ask another question how to interact mouse in order to moving objects. 09:39:56 you chineese 09:41:27 because that is syntacally ubsurd 09:41:32 If somebody was used to program with glfw, give some references of glfw please. 09:41:36 nvntung: a useful irc command is /ignore, as in '/ignore younder' 09:41:57 ahh an insult 09:42:08 <_3b> younder: you might want to work on spelling before commenting on grammar 09:42:10 huh? you need to write a mouse handler (ie, define a callback) and you have to basically go from there, afaik. 09:43:20 depends on your windows sysem doesent it 09:43:30 system 09:43:30 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@95.65.240.91] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:43:51 huh? you mean something layered ontop of GLFW? 09:44:43 hypno: Yes 09:44:47 I prefer CAPI, what do you use? 09:45:22 <_3b> younder: you are acting like a bad markov chain again :( 09:45:26 nvntung: well, either you do it yourself (write a lib for it) or you will need interfacing to something else (which i have no clue about) 09:46:23 Ok, I'm in a bad mood, Ill shut up and let uou sortb it out 09:46:33 sort 09:47:22 you 09:47:35 nvntung: my experience with glfw+gl was sort of similiar as with DOS and the various screen modes there: a /ton/ of hard work is required before approaching anything useful, heh. 09:47:40 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:48:30 vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 09:49:09 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:51:01 -!- HG` [n=HG@89.166.249.111] has quit [Client Quit] 09:51:34 hypno: I have made a funtions to move or rotate my graph. Clearly, if I apply this function to a graph, it rotates the graph as I want. But if I want to apply the function on the graph's nodes, what if we can rotate everynode if we want? 09:51:41 HG` [n=HG@xdslhl111.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:52:20 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 09:52:38 nvntung: afaik, you have to write your own functions for that. either that or try to find some lib that helps you with it. 09:52:39 hypno: I mean that what are the differences between funtions which rotates a graph and a node. 09:55:32 lexa_ [n=lexa_@83.222.5.112] has joined #lisp 09:56:00 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest83205 09:56:14 -!- Guest83205 [n=lexa_@83.222.5.112] has left #lisp 09:57:51 what graphics system are you using? 09:58:27 rbancrof1 [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 09:58:30 -!- rbancroft [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:58:58 nvntung: 09:59:22 _3b pasted "text with cl-opengl, cl-glut, and vecto internals" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86421 10:02:51 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-108-139.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:03:47 _3b: I might sound like a broken record, but without knowing what system he is working on how can we help him? (I't not like it's in the ANSI CL standard...) 10:04:22 <_3b> younder: you mean glfw, as mentioned every few lines in the conversation? 10:04:53 heh 10:04:55 <_3b> nvntung: how are you drawing the graph? 10:05:08 egosh [n=Miranda@94.242.158.114] has joined #lisp 10:05:23 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 10:08:41 _3b: Yes, I am drawing graph in OpenGL. Firstly, I draw the edges with random placements. 10:09:23 and then, I want to move nodes or edges to have a better layout. 10:09:33 <_3b> nvntung: is there a hierarchy, or just a bunch of independent nodes? 10:10:53 _3b: No, my graph is mainly a circular 10:11:04 tagac [n=user@44.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 10:11:21 But I have not care of the layout. I will do that later. 10:12:42 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@wavelan-96.vlan-109.publik.su.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:16:28 -!- prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:16:42 prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:48 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:17:43 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:18:23 <_3b> generally, to rotate just part of the scene, you would save the current matrix state with gl:push-matrix, then move the center of the world to the origin of the local rotation with gl:translate, apply the local rotation, then restore the matrix state with gl:pop-matrix 10:22:20 aerique: hello 10:23:25 Xach: yeah sorry that should have been a private message :) 10:23:35 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c150-178.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:23:38 <_3b> oops, i forgot the part about actually drawing the object, that goes right before the pop-matrix 10:27:08 weirdo [n=sthalik@c129-239.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:28:44 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-191-200.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:29:13 -!- dto` is now known as dto 10:33:08 -!- cads [n=max@c-24-30-105-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:34:52 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-108-139.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:37:18 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6ED0D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 10:38:59 _3b: yes that 10:41:36 sohail [n=sohail@99.251.84.57] has joined #lisp 10:43:43 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 10:46:12 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2E20.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:28 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 10:47:39 mogunus [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 10:51:10 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:52:31 joswig [n=joswig@e177156002.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:53:10 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 10:55:00 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:56:38 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E11A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:03 dear sbclers -- any chance of a nice new binary for amd64 linux? 10:59:38 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 11:00:24 is there a reason you can't make one yourself? 11:00:41 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177127254.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:01:18 it's a bit inconvenient because my dev system has a very new libc, so binaries i make myself don't run nicely on older systems :( 11:02:26 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:03:07 emacs-dwim [n=user@74.71.11.230] has joined #lisp 11:03:32 11:03:47 Xach: +5 insightful 11:04:18 *lnostdal* concurs 11:05:03 How do i make mcclim use a larger text-style? As in (with-text-style (make-text-style :fixed :roman :huge) ...) 11:05:27 ilitirit: there are utils to make glibc be less retarded with linking, but I can't really tell you off-hand where to get them or how to set them up 11:06:32 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c129-239.icpnet.pl] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 11:06:34 it's one of the huge idiocies of how glibc is maintained, they have a very fine-grained symbold versioning system, and then use it to make sure your binaries are as unportable as possible 11:08:01 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 11:09:09 the way recommended is to build an old glibc and link against that 11:09:20 yeah, but that's a complete PITA to setup 11:09:26 whoever makes the sbcl binaries normally had it all very nicely under control :( 11:09:30 linker scripts are a bit more manageable 11:10:08 ilitirit: erm, well, I certainly don't -- you'd get the glibc of whatever machine I'm on at the time 11:10:21 the actual solution would be to have glibc not be broken and not bump symbol versions when unchanged 11:10:40 s/actual/proper/ 11:10:41 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2E20.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:11:08 Xof, well your machine is entirely to my liking :) -- I imagined you just had a script to upload the new binary? 11:11:50 aha. no 11:11:55 you've clearly never had to work with sourceforge 11:12:22 *ilitirit* has been using sourceforge since 2000 i think 11:12:29 and I'm afraid that the answer for me is "no": I suggest you build one yourself on the oldest system you need to support 11:12:36 wedgeV [n=wedge@dyn167253.wlan.jku.at] has joined #lisp 11:13:29 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:13:31 -!- ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:14:36 virtualbox with the distro/release combination can be handy for off-line work btw. 11:15:08 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@dyn167253.wlan.jku.at] has left #lisp 11:15:23 there's a thing for debian which lets you make really old versions quite easily 11:16:14 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:16:15 perhaps debootstrap? .. i have not tried this 11:17:36 -!- spytheman [n=delian66@95.111.111.218] has left #lisp 11:18:21 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 11:19:20 *lnostdal* just uses virtualbox and shared folders + rsync .. brute force perhaps, but it works 11:19:48 don't want to spend a second thinking about symlinks and glibc versions or any of that :P 11:20:24 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 11:21:23 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:34 how can you make slime take a stab at an error before handler-case? 11:22:11 clim with-text-size 11:22:11 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/11-2.html#_593 11:22:27 emacs-dwim: you can use with-text-style or with-text-size, see URL above. 11:26:40 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 11:27:35 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 11:30:05 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:31:20 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:32:06 Hi Inosdahl 11:32:13 p0a [n=user@athedsl-382808.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 11:32:16 Hello I have this function 11:32:35 http://paste.lisp.org/display/86423 11:32:46 I have a small file (say ~400-1000 bytes) 11:33:04 spiaggia: it doesn't do anything to the text size... which medium should i be passing to `with-text-size', the pane? It seems to want a symbol. 11:33:10 and try out the function like this: (with-open-file (s "foo") (read-nbytes 99999999 s)) 11:33:30 I expect READ-NBYTES to stop reading bytes at some point, look at (ignore-errors (read-byte stream)) 11:33:43 i'm more into mathematical logic these days 11:34:07 But it doesn't; I have no idea what it does, but it hungs 11:34:16 like isabelle translated to Haskell 11:34:22 benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-124-177-91-65.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:34:29 Oh yeah nevermind 11:34:30 now Iknow 11:36:03 p0a: what was wrong? 11:36:28 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 11:36:40 p0a: I'd replace (ignore-errors (read-byte stream)) with (read-byte stream nil nil) 11:38:44 sounds wery unrobust 11:39:54 In the end tough it is you call 11:40:26 that is the Lisp way 11:40:38 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 11:41:46 well, it's probably because I would usually put error handling elsewhere, but I agree that we may not have the same view on how this should work... 11:41:49 emacs-dwim: Yeah, it wants a symbol, try (let ((medium (sheet-medium pane))) (with-text-size (medium :huge) ...)) 11:42:01 clim sheet-medium 11:42:01 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/8-3.html#_416 11:42:10 iwaki [n=hide@PPPa272.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:42:10 zoldar [n=zoldar@80.51.70.6] has joined #lisp 11:45:37 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 11:46:29 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 11:49:36 ilitirit: http://www.autopackage.org/apbuild-apgcc.php 11:49:55 PHP? 11:50:03 php what? 11:50:37 your code? 11:52:13 ... 11:52:16 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:52:29 younder: reading comprehension comes in handy sometimes, y'know 11:52:30 younder: time to go, I think 11:53:10 I think not 11:54:01 is it unwise to fiddle with sb-ext:*invoke-debugger-hook* if also running slime ? 11:54:45 Witch part of http://www.autopackage.org/apbuild-apgcc.php is not PHP? 11:54:55 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:55:06 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 11:55:25 <_3b> younder: the language used to write random pages on the internet is off-topic 11:55:51 fine 11:56:28 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-113-245.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit ["hmm. IRC is distracting."] 11:56:36 'I also write some PHP. 11:57:23 crappy language, but better than Perl 12:01:36 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:02:52 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 12:04:26 lol, PHP better than perl? 12:04:56 For web developement,yes. 12:05:04 in SLIME, every time I do ,disconnect, there is a query Buffer has a running process; kill it? (y or n) 12:05:13 any idea how to get rid of that query? 12:05:19 type 'y' 12:05:21 :-P 12:05:46 p0a: that didn't get rid of it 12:05:57 it appears next time 12:06:02 sorry I don't know 12:06:12 -!- metawilm [n=willem@e179148116.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 12:06:14 younder: I haven't done web development with perl so I can't tell you about that 12:07:00 The problem with PHP is that it's too inconsistent, the names of the functions, the argument order, the language design, etc are all inconsistent 12:07:27 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 12:07:32 -!- Adlai```` [n=adlai@85.250.193.255] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:07:44 p0a: http://xach.com/lisp/cl-flash/dumper.lisp is something i used to dump flash file structure. doesn't handle compressed swfs. 12:07:45 Adlai```` [n=adlai@85.250.193.255] has joined #lisp 12:07:50 it folllows the C library 12:07:51 wedgeV [n=wedge@dyn167253.wlan.jku.at] has joined #lisp 12:08:05 leo2007, is your goal actually to restart? .. ,rest does this instantly no questions asked, then 12:08:26 p0a: kind of old, not sure i'd write it like that now, but there it is 12:08:48 lnostdal: no. just to disconnect. 12:08:55 leo2007, ok 12:09:01 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:25 lnostdal: and rest won't work without a inferior lisp process 12:09:55 p0a: I'd go for ruby on rails 12:10:31 *younder* has never used it 12:11:05 -!- chessguy_work is now known as chessguy 12:11:44 Huchentoot is too buggy 12:12:00 ok, slime doesn't provide a way to avoid the query. I will live with that for now. 12:14:43 Xach: thanks I'm looking at it now 12:16:37 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-382808.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["I'll be back! :O"] 12:16:58 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:19:54 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2E20.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:20:20 I'm going slighty mad.. 12:20:34 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:20:39 -!- zoldar [n=zoldar@80.51.70.6] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:21:16 slightly 12:22:02 even in madness I can't spell for shit! 12:22:38 later.. 12:22:47 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:48 there's #lispcafe , younder 12:22:57 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-131.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:30 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:23:31 emacs-dwim: did you solve your problem with text size? 12:24:35 leo2007: slime doesn't ask me anything on ,disconnect 12:25:53 -!- benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-124-177-91-65.qld.bigpond.net.au] has left #lisp 12:26:12 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-148-11-244.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:03 logBot5291 [n=logBot@59.96.39.195] has joined #lisp 12:29:37 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-148-11-244.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:30:38 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 12:31:00 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-148-11-244.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:28 younder: people keep on saying that (Hunchentoot is buggy). what specificly is the problem with it? 12:33:02 i've tryied it with SBCL, and serve-event no less, and judging from that, it seems to be the best option for SBCL at least. 12:35:03 hypno: younder is known for regularly spewing misinformation 12:35:27 I suggest you don't trust anything he says that you haven't independently verified 12:35:50 (same goes for anybody on the internet) 12:35:55 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:36:08 oh, heh. i thought he was one of the regulars and a dangerous SBCL dev. 12:36:53 Especially antifuchs. Gotta watch that guy. 12:37:07 no, he's just a troll. I believe the reason he's here regularly is that the ban list is full. 12:37:29 hypno: quite the opposite 12:37:34 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.208.75] has joined #lisp 12:37:37 it's still news for me he isn't banned 12:37:48 antifuchs: oh 12:37:52 that might explain it 12:38:36 stassats`: which Emacs are you running? 12:38:36 compared to the other whackjobs on it, having him on is the lesser evil (-: 12:38:50 stassats`: it seems the latest CVS does that. 12:39:05 leo2007: 23, but i don't think that matters 12:39:34 stassats`: did you see Lisp connection closed unexpectedly: deleted when disconnect? 12:39:44 yes, that's expected 12:40:04 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 12:40:10 antifuchs: that's debatable, the amount of drivel and unsubstantiated, blatantly wrong claims that come from him is disturbing 12:40:15 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:40:27 stassats`: any idea what's caused the query? 12:40:59 what's exact message? 12:41:01 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.87.139] has joined #lisp 12:41:12 -!- hohum [n=dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:41:15 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:29 hohum [n=dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:54 stassats`: Buffer has a running process; kill it? (y or n) ) 12:42:35 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:58 *Xof* laughs at antifuchs' characterization 12:44:18 leo2007: that happens when you are trying to kill a buffer with running process in it, i guess 12:44:34 heh 12:45:08 stassats`: yes, in slime-net-close 12:45:44 stassats`: due to this change in Emacs: ** Killing a buffer with a running process now asks a confirmation. 12:46:45 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@dyn167253.wlan.jku.at] has quit [] 12:46:53 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:24 you can (remove-hook 'kill-buffer-query-functions 'process-kill-buffer-query-function) in the meantime 12:47:41 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:47:46 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 12:48:30 stassats`: that would affect all other processes, it seems slime needs update to work with this change 12:48:33 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 12:48:37 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2E20.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:48:48 well, that's why i said "in the meantime" 12:48:52 ;) 12:49:16 but it only ask for confirmation, so removing it is harmless 12:49:44 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 12:50:43 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:01 stassats`: or set slime-kill-without-query-p to t 12:52:02 that's for quitting emacs, innit? 12:52:44 oh, i see, it sets a flag 12:53:00 ahh 12:53:05 then yes, i had it T, that's why it didn't query me 12:53:50 stassats`: ok. but it affects both net and inferior connections 12:54:00 I will set it to T. 12:55:00 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:55:34 ok, i still need to look at it, asking this on ,disconnect is annoying 12:57:47 sadists`: thanks. I agree it will be useful to distinguish the two cases. Net disconnect should not query by default because it is rather harmless. 12:58:09 i'm no sadist! 12:58:20 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:58:23 if anything, as a lisp user, he is a masochist 12:58:26 -!- gko [n=gko@114-137-46-245.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:58:51 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@c-69-248-128-195.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:59:19 ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 13:00:06 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 13:00:10 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:18 coliv [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has joined #lisp 13:03:05 -!- cp2_ [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:05:23 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 13:08:04 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:09:03 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 13:11:33 Eataix [n=kid85783@220-245-212-146-act.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:13:33 -!- Eataix [n=kid85783@220-245-212-146-act.tpgi.com.au] has quit [] 13:14:02 slackjaw [n=jolyonw@124-170-187-31.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:14:11 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:15:15 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:15:34 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:15:46 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 13:19:10 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 13:19:12 Geralt [n=Geralt@141.3.161.195] has joined #lisp 13:20:30 ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.30] has joined #lisp 13:22:30 http://wigflip.com/thankyoumario/ is approaching final form 13:22:32 what you think 13:22:38 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:23:26 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:23:29 *stassats* didn't play mario, so he doesn't quite get it 13:23:57 argh, wrong channel. sorry. 13:28:21 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:29:51 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:31:49 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 13:32:03 Coliveira [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has joined #lisp 13:32:52 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:08 -!- dwave is now known as asksol 13:33:17 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:15 Xach: is there a typo in the example message 'can't even be bothered to hand around the.' or similar. 13:36:24 thanks. 13:36:45 (the "Save to..." links also mostly don't work) 13:37:25 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-200.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:39:15 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-25-137.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:39:17 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #lisp 13:39:43 Is there a way to insert a character every mod N list elements using FORMAT? 13:40:26 "every mod N"? 13:40:40 Xach: nifty 13:41:12 murbank: I don't think so. 13:41:20 mathrick: when i = 0 mod N where i is the index of the list element being processed 13:41:32 Xach: it's nice how google tries to sell me "form generator PHP" 13:41:40 on wigflip that is 13:41:54 murbank: use a string stream instead of format 13:42:04 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:42:13 murbank: that's just plain "every N", as far as my understanding goes 13:42:24 mathrick: Yes, that's clearer. 13:42:35 but I don't think you can do arithmetics within format itself 13:42:47 you could use the ~/funcall/ thing perhaps 13:42:54 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslhl111.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:43:09 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 13:43:15 and the #: argument 13:45:16 haha 13:46:33 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:47:41 -!- vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:51:31 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:35 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p14220-ipngn1701marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:52:18 -!- Adlai```` [n=adlai@85.250.193.255] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:52:30 Adlai```` [n=adlai@85.250.193.255] has joined #lisp 13:53:12 -!- huangjs [n=user@p2162-ipbf6607marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:54:23 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:55:03 HG` [n=HG@xdslhl111.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:55:11 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:57:28 Ogedei [n=user@e178225069.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:58:44 are there functions to search the slime history, or is the slime history accessible as sexps or text somewhere? 13:59:15 A-p doesn't cut it in the repl because it searches from the beginning of the s-expr. 13:59:17 nunb: M-r is one 14:00:22 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-148-11-244.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:00:26 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [] 14:00:27 is there a .slime-history like .bash-history perhaps? 14:01:26 yes 14:01:40 jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 14:01:47 it is named ~/.slime-history.eld 14:02:46 Xach thanks, some digging revealed elisp-var slime-repl-input-history .. 14:04:17 nunb: I use M-r for searching in the repl. 14:07:15 leo2007: i think i got it changed 14:07:39 -!- thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:07:50 thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 14:08:04 -!- Adlai```` [n=adlai@85.250.193.255] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:08:31 Adlai```` [n=adlai@85.250.193.255] has joined #lisp 14:08:45 GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:10 -!- Adlai```` is now known as Adlai 14:10:43 -!- GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:11:29 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 14:14:00 demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-078-150.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:59 Hi. In CLOS is there a difference when I simply inherit a slot from a superclass to when I redefine that slot in the subclass? 14:16:28 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:16:51 Xach: yes, M-r seems better, now just need to retrain my fingers. 14:17:09 milanj [n=milan@93.87.100.92] has joined #lisp 14:17:22 -!- ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.30] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:18:19 demmel: you will get different mop:class-direct-slots 14:18:22 jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:19:06 stassats: ah ok. But non MOP stuff should be the same. 14:19:43 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-131.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:20:01 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:48 (I'm just reading in the mcclim source and wounder why e.g. pane redefines the slot 'space-requirement' though it inherits it from 'layout-protocol-mixin'...) 14:21:24 -!- ln51 is now known as ln5 14:21:31 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:21:43 demmel: you can add additional readers, writers, accessors, initargs, different allocation, etc 14:21:59 demmel: but i don't think there's much point just redefining without changing anything. 14:23:57 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:24:21 Xach: Nothing is changed. It might just be leftover from the last millennium. Mcclim code doesn't seem to be in the greatest shape (no wounders). 14:27:02 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:28:24 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:10 *splittist* makes note to self: come up with better naming scheme than function, function*, function***... 14:30:36 err` [n=user@128.61.125.112] has joined #lisp 14:30:38 function-0, function-2, function-3? 14:30:45 *function **function 14:31:48 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:31:59 *mekitten 14:34:03 cp2 [n=will@69.163.33.38] has joined #lisp 14:34:49 is this something to do with the death kitten? 14:35:24 ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 14:38:36 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-42.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:41:24 spiaggia: not yet.. for some reason the size is always tiny 14:42:17 *Xach* wonders why none of the esteemed reviewers of the Lisp J.UCS issue have blogged about it 14:42:27 *Xach* eyes spiaggia and Xof 14:43:36 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:44:35 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:46:30 blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 14:46:55 -!- antgreen [n=user@bas2-toronto06-1177888238.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:47:51 Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:49:33 stassats: which is changed? 14:49:50 antgreen [n=user@bas2-toronto06-1177888238.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:49:51 leo2007: not asking on ,disconnect 14:50:03 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:50:50 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 14:50:51 stassats: locally or in slime cvs? 14:50:55 in cvs 14:51:02 stassats: excellent 14:51:07 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Client Quit] 14:52:30 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:52:56 -!- err` [n=user@128.61.125.112] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:53:56 Xach: for me, it's because I'm more preoccupied with bringing you ELS 2010 (and also SBCL10) 14:54:24 I'll get to it :-) 14:54:30 tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 14:54:36 (anything to help my sparklines live. When do we get the logarithmic scale on those sparklines, btw?) 14:55:28 *Xach* mumbles, walks backwards 14:56:36 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:18 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 14:57:38 splittist: function, functio, functi, ... ;-) 14:57:54 (think Russian dolls) 14:58:44 c|mell [n=cmell@p14220-ipngn1701marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:59:27 after f it'd be uf, nuf, cnuf, ... 15:00:17 why not name functions after animals? like cat, tiger, horse, hippo 15:00:33 stassats: i think it will be better to set the process query when first establishing it. What do you think? 15:00:36 or your family tree (or graph, as it may be) 15:00:40 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:01:46 -!- ASau [n=user@host180-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 15:01:58 Well, I've just added function- . This may not be progress. 15:02:10 leo2007: well, that's what slime-kill-without-query-p does, but you might not want this 15:03:44 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:06:03 lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-4-248.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:06:57 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:07:09 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:08:43 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-131.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:50 minion: logs 15:08:50 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 15:09:14 gigamonkey: when's the expected shipping date? 15:09:23 -!- prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:09:42 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has joined #lisp 15:10:21 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:11:05 9/11. Allegedly there's going to some kind of promotion at Barnes & Noble on 9/14. 15:11:21 Has anyone successfully resized mcclim text lately? 15:11:37 I think Amazon pre-orderers might get it by 9/11. 15:11:48 gigamonkey, that's US dates, i.e. September 11th? 15:11:52 It's sort of crazy to think that the books are probably all printed by now. 15:11:54 tic: yes. Sorry. 15:12:05 2009-09-11T12:00Z 15:12:08 gigamonkey, great! means it'll arrive even sooner. 15:12:21 (that time bit is made up, obviously.) 15:12:27 what you say! 15:12:54 stassats: I was thinking about something like this http://paste2.org/p/410470 15:13:04 We should just use ham radio convention, 11/IX/2009. 15:13:16 stassats: I will prepare a proper one shortly. 15:13:38 gigamonkey: new lisp book? 15:14:05 -!- slackjaw [n=jolyonw@124-170-187-31.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:14:28 galdor: http://www.codersatwork.com/ 15:15:06 murbank: still here? 15:15:56 thank you 15:16:44 will it be online readable like practical common lisp? I mean I'm ok about buying it, but I like to read a few chapters before 15:17:13 galdor: sadly, for this book I think an online edition really would hurt sales. Unlike PCL. 15:17:59 you're probably right :( 15:18:04 leo2007: you set 'no-query unconditionally, that defies puprpose of having slime-kill-without-query-p 15:18:08 minion: memo for murbank: I think this is what you were looking for (format t "~{~3@{~a~^~}|~}" (list 1 2 3 4 5 6 7)) 15:18:08 Remembered. I'll tell murbank when he/she/it next speaks. 15:18:42 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:53 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 15:19:47 in what versions appeared set-process-query-on-exit-flag? 15:21:18 gigamonkey, yes definitely. 15:22:13 gigamonkey, what made you think that the online edition of PCL would not hurt its sales? What is it you think is different about a programming text? 15:22:30 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-171-88.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:23:08 C@W has a novelty aspect to it. PCL can easily be used as a reference. 15:24:21 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has quit [] 15:24:41 stassats: http://paste.lisp.org/display/86442 15:25:35 hmm. is the lispbuilder-sdl package stable and reliable on windows? 15:26:06 what does it do, besides introducing new optional argument to slime-set-query-on-exit-flag? 15:26:35 emma: plus for PCL I thought there were a lot of folks who were interested enough in Lisp to look at a good free online book but maybe not ready to shell out ~$50 for a book. 15:26:51 I figured once I got them hooked, a lot of them would get tired of reading on a screen and buy the book. 15:27:20 gigamonkey, I think it's a reasonable assumption. 15:27:33 Plus lots of word of mouth: folks here and on comp.lang.lisp are probably more likely to point newbies at PCL since it's freely available. 15:27:48 gigamonkey, was it entirely your choice or did you have to get apress to agree? 15:28:05 I had to convince Apress which involved giving up some of my royalties. 15:28:14 wow. 15:28:18 Which basically means I got ripped off, assuming I'm right and it actually helped sales. 15:28:32 I should have negotiated for *increased* royalties after it sold a certain number of copies. 15:28:43 you got ripped in monetary value, but not in intellectual terms 15:28:48 so 15:29:01 it's actually read by a whole lot more people now :) 15:29:03 in the X11 version of emacs how do I disable the toolbar that gets annoyingly painted on the window 15:29:12 hohum: tool-bar-mode 15:29:12 guaqua: yes. That was my plan. ;-) 15:29:17 hohum: #emacs is a better place to ask, but what dlowe said. 15:29:18 hohum: you ask on #emacs. 15:29:33 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has joined #lisp 15:29:37 gigamonkey, hopefully you can leverage the success of the book and your reputation as an author to get some more books published where you can be properly compensated. 15:30:00 Heh. I just reconnected with a friend from high school who lives in Berkeley (as do I) and asked if he wanted to get together. He said, "Hey! Hell yeah! And then you can sign my copy of Practical Common Lisp!" 15:30:08 sorry 15:30:10 wrong window :) 15:30:11 hehe 15:30:18 I actually meant to ask that in #emacs 15:30:29 that's great...the best kind of feedback :) 15:30:40 stassats: it allows the control as you said and it etablish the query status in the beginning. 15:30:50 gigamonkey, do you have any plans for any more technical books in the future? 15:31:13 emma: perhaps. 15:31:17 leo2007: well, it doesn't change the situation at all 15:31:26 it was already set at the beginning 15:31:31 I've been playing around with the idea of writing a short book about the internals of cl-ppcre. 15:32:07 (to the value of slime-set-query-on-exit-flag) 15:32:27 Thanks gigamonkey, that works. 15:32:27 murbank, memo from gigamonkey: I think this is what you were looking for (format t "~{~3@{~a~^~}|~}" (list 1 2 3 4 5 6 7)) 15:32:27 stassats: it does. according to the new variable so it won't query when exit 15:32:51 no, it will 15:33:01 if i set it to nil 15:33:54 gigamonkey: Is there a way to make the separator spacing a parameter? 15:34:00 a little cumbersome, let me restate 15:34:29 it will interfere with the previous customization variable 15:34:39 murbank: you mean instead of "|" you want some specific amount of space? 15:34:40 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:34:56 so if i don't want not to query disconnect, but to query on emacs exit, it will fail 15:35:22 gigamonkey, maybe you could write a sequel "Impractical common lisp" 15:35:29 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 15:35:44 emma: lisp at lightspeed's got that covered. 15:35:53 sadly defunct 15:36:02 emma: so the metric now is I need to write books that are either going to sell many more copies than PCL or that I can write much more quickly. 15:36:05 which is then full of surprisingly whimsical and fun lisp projects, stuff that you wouldn't do for serious work but which will make people think its fun and cool 15:36:09 Ideally, both. 15:36:12 gigamonkey: I want to specify the "distance" between "|" from a variable intead of "hard coded" in ~3@ 15:36:29 emma: that is the story of http://wigflip.com/ ! 15:36:57 why the need for "many more copies"..? .. if PCL didn't lose money, that is .. 15:37:00 anyone using slime on emacs 21? 15:37:01 gigamonkey: I guess I use ~v 15:37:37 ~v and ~{~} is tricky 15:37:49 stassats: I have tested the patch with emacs -q and it works perfectly. It won't query net connection but will query inferior lisp by default. 15:38:08 I would have to splice the ~v parameters into my list :( 15:38:22 leo2007: i don't follow that from changes 15:38:27 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 15:38:29 murbank: what Xach said. I can't figure out how to make them play together. 15:38:58 gigamonkey, Xach: Thanks, I guess I will just use a loop 15:39:13 besides, why anyone would want to set that query to NIL, even if it would do it properly? 15:39:51 (format t (format nil "~~{~~~d@{~~a~~^~~}|~~}" 3) (list 1 2 3 4 5 6 7)) 15:39:59 That's sort of silly though. 15:40:16 formatmonkey :) 15:41:04 stassats: that is why it defaults to t. My first patch set it unconditionally. 15:43:36 gigamonkey: Thanks :) 15:43:41 leo2007: you call slime-set-query-on-exit-flag twice on the same process, but with different variables 15:43:48 how is that supposed to not interfere? 15:45:49 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 15:45:51 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:46:23 no, that was wrong argument 15:47:02 gigamonkey: ~? is the recursive directive, i.e. the next arg is interpreted as a format string 15:47:45 Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 15:47:49 stassats: yes, because one is for starting a inferior lisp and the other a connection to sWANK server 15:47:54 leo2007: you can connect to slime remotely, and have no inferior-lisp buffer, and connection process query flag would be set to nil, so it won't ask on the exit, even if slime-kill-without-query-p is nil 15:48:18 tcr: Yeah. But I'm not sure that helps much here. 15:48:20 -!- seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Success] 15:48:51 that's what i wanted to say 15:48:56 slime-kill-without-query-p only affects inferior lisp after the patch where slime-disconnect-without-query-p only net connections 15:50:00 stassats: I make the doc string a bit clear http://paste.lisp.org/display/86442#1 15:50:10 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 15:50:24 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has quit [] 15:50:38 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest91014 15:52:46 so, it doesn't work anymore as it used to work? 15:54:06 stassats: I still don't understand what does not work. I fail to meet a case where it fails. 15:54:27 remote connection without an inferior buffer 15:54:32 -!- Guest91014 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 15:55:06 stassats: I have tested that too. When slime-disconnect-without-query-p is t it won't query as you will expect. 15:55:51 what if i want to disconnect without query on ,disconnect, but have a query on emacs exit? 15:57:15 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslhl111.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:59:10 that's what it does now, and slime users are already very angry with changes in the behaviour 15:59:31 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-141-157-64-49.balt.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:59:48 HG` [n=HG@xdslhl111.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:01:28 dysinger [n=dysinger@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:46 -!- matley [n=matley@193.204.39.77] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:02:01 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:02:58 dysinger [n=dysinger@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:22 stassats: i see the problem now. 16:03:52 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2E20.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:18 stassats: I forgot the case of exiting Emacs ;) 16:04:34 and there is no point in setting the flag at the beginning 16:04:45 ejs [n=eugen@67-0-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:59 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 16:05:11 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:05:59 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 16:06:13 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 16:07:30 I have an idea for a resource, which may already exist, if it exists please let me know, otherwise it's an idea ----- How about a site that has all the operators, functions, and typical macros for CL that is organized so that each explanation is accessible to beginners, useful for advanced users, and there is some way to find those functions based on what you want to do. 16:07:35 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 16:07:48 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 16:07:50 minion: clqr 16:07:50 in otherwords you dont have to know the function/operator/macro exists in order to find it. You can sort of search based on what you want it to do. 16:07:50 clqr: The Common Lisp Quick Reference is a booklet with short descriptions of the symbols defined in the ANSI standard: http://clqr.berlios.de/ 16:08:05 that could be similar let me see. 16:08:21 emma: I think that's a great idea. I also really like the clqr. 16:08:28 letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has joined #lisp 16:12:13 stassats: thank you for your patch. I applied it now. 16:12:14 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:37 emma: Do you know the permutated symbol index of CLHS? 16:12:42 emma: Do you know about APROPOS? 16:12:58 tagac` [n=user@46.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:13:04 -!- Reav___ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:13:06 tcr, no i dont know about either of those. 16:15:15 It's also not a bad idea to go through the symbol index and skim through the specification of each operator. So you'll have that feeling in the back that you once read about something that might be applicable to your problem X. 16:16:06 And you'll come across functions that are very seldom, if ever, used like PHASE :) 16:16:30 blackened`__ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 16:18:35 tcr, that's a wonderful idea. 16:19:18 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-131.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:19:22 tcr, ive been learning common lisp for about 2 days. I did learn a little scheme already, just enough to make some project-euler type problems, but lisp is my first attempt to learn a programming language. 16:19:59 In past it was also very useful to search for some advanced operator in google's comp.lang.lisp archive. But for some reason, the google groups search function is severely broken since weeks. 16:20:02 tcr, from the book im reading (*the* book) i'm on chapter 3. Already I feel I wont be able to memorize these all. 16:20:26 emma: less irc, more hacking! 16:20:36 hehe 16:20:58 Yeah you won't memorize, that's pretty normal. Read through it, then take some challenging project and reread parts 16:21:09 -!- tagac` [n=user@46.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has left #lisp 16:21:44 -!- tagac [n=user@44.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:22:21 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-102-254.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:22:28 Good evening everyone! 16:22:29 Probably takes you half a decade to be acquainted with most of the language. Takes you another 5 years to master it all. 16:23:08 -!- kei__ is now known as kei 16:23:33 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-12.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:24:30 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 16:27:28 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has joined #lisp 16:28:26 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 16:32:02 tcr: re that lispworks change, user can do (declare (lambda-list "factor2 [bar]" arg2)) and put there whatever he wants, so how to deal with that? 16:32:48 -!- blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:32:51 it could even be (function-lambda-list (lambda () (declare (lambda-list 30.5)))) => (30.5) 16:35:22 kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:43 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 16:38:32 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host154.190-231-49.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:39:27 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslhl111.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:39:27 -!- logBot5291 [n=logBot@59.96.39.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:39:48 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 16:39:59 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p14220-ipngn1701marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:44:37 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:45:18 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:45:21 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:45:45 existentialmonk [n=user@64-148-11-244.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:02 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2E20.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:46:30 msca [n=user@library2.wtamu.edu] has joined #lisp 16:46:50 c|mell [n=cmell@p14220-ipngn1701marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:47:50 nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:47:50 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-80.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 16:48:52 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:49:08 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has joined #lisp 16:50:04 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 16:50:35 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:52:53 i have one solution: recursively intern all strings 16:54:41 -!- ln5 [n=Adium@nordutug-gw.nordu.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:55:05 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1D5FE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:14 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 16:56:06 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068078072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:01 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67.130.43.2] has joined #lisp 16:58:30 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:41 -!- chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67.130.43.2] has quit [Client Quit] 17:00:01 omichael [n=user@64.34.179.211] has joined #lisp 17:01:43 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:01:59 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:04:22 -!- dys` is now known as dys 17:06:27 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:07:09 stassats: ecl has a similiar problem, there they just (ignore-errors (read-from-string ...)) 17:07:31 Ideally, a parser for CLHS-style EBNF would be used 17:09:38 spiaggia: ah -- i was using the clx backend instead of gtkairo. Now the text-size works properly. 17:10:11 hmm, since when highlighting position of cursor inside lists of macro arglists is broken? 17:10:18 i seem to remember it working 17:10:41 No, Climacs can that 17:10:42 moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 17:11:01 But I hacked that up at work, including highlighting &key parameters 17:11:09 Haven't had time to merge yet 17:11:25 ok 17:11:26 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:48 I rewrote much of swank-arglists, slime-autodoc so to get rid of the mess in slime-parse 17:12:15 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has joined #lisp 17:13:11 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 17:13:20 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:15:03 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-rfsfymelmducekkx] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:15:03 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 17:15:56 ugh, slow cvs at cl.net is annoying 17:16:42 It sure is 17:17:34 if git was slow, i wouldn't notice, but with cvs it's even more annoying 17:19:03 we seem to like git in this channel. 17:19:11 tcr: does C-c C-a in *VC-log* work for you? 17:19:14 I actually taught myself a little bit of git once for the fun of it. 17:19:24 It's not so hard. 17:19:59 i haven't met too many people who didn't like git 17:21:05 *rpg* doesn't like git... 17:21:06 stassats`: How do I get into *VC-log*? 17:21:30 hehe ;) 17:21:50 tcr: when you do commit from VC, if you do 17:22:12 I use vc only for annotating, otherwise I tend to use pcvs 17:22:54 so, inserting log entry from ChangeLog works in pcvs? 17:23:02 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:23:19 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:24:23 Dunno I always do it manually =) 17:25:01 i'll try it, because i'm tired to do it manually 17:26:15 badon [n=KCXYCL@75-169-51-194.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:53 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-204-194.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 17:29:14 heya 17:29:49 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 17:30:17 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest32072 17:30:32 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:30:35 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-wjnhyzijsmxckktc] has joined #lisp 17:32:13 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has joined #lisp 17:33:07 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 17:33:15 how would i found out, where a certain package was from? :) 17:33:23 s/found/find 17:33:49 M-. ? 17:35:36 hmm. the package is named "sequence" 17:36:20 jan247_ [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 17:36:58 sbcl? 17:37:12 M-. doesn't work on internal sbcl packages 17:37:58 okay. i was just wondering why i can't find it from my clbuild source directories and M-. doesn't say a thing. thanks1 17:38:25 it's for extensible sequences, iirc 17:38:31 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:38:32 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 17:39:38 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:39:39 -!- jan247_ is now known as jan247 17:45:59 skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has joined #lisp 17:46:21 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 17:46:46 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has quit [Client Quit] 17:46:51 skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has joined #lisp 17:47:00 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 17:48:06 M-. doesn't work on internal sbcl packages <-- does here 17:48:06 -!- joswig [n=joswig@e177156002.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:48:19 lispm [n=joswig@e177156002.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:48:57 oh, packages 17:49:00 right, that doesn't work 17:49:55 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:47 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 17:51:30 -!- Ogedei [n=user@e178225069.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:53:15 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-57.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 17:53:32 -!- xan_ is now known as xan-afk 17:54:13 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has joined #lisp 17:54:33 kpreid [n=kpreid@209.217.212.34] has joined #lisp 17:55:13 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 17:57:02 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:58:17 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:05 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:00:36 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:00:43 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:03:11 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.208.75] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 18:04:16 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:05:43 when people say 'lisp is good for prototyping' what exactly do they mean by that? 18:05:47 dysinger [n=dysinger@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:48 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:06:04 emma: i think in part it means that you don't have to know a lot about a problem to start writing some code that does something interesting to explore the problem. 18:06:24 I see. 18:06:30 emma: some languages require you to make a lot of design decisions up front (like the types and layout and relationships of variables and structures and classes) 18:06:58 hm, interesting. 18:07:09 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-evjeeuykpzwwmsec] has joined #lisp 18:07:37 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/917737b7cc8510e3 has a quip about it: "[C++] requires you to specify in great detail what you do not know in order to obtain the experience necessary to learn it." 18:08:03 *Xach* waves at drewc 18:08:20 Tordek [n=tordek@4-3-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 18:08:56 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.208.75] has joined #lisp 18:09:00 emma: put another way, it means that it takes less time to write a Lisp program than it would to write the equivalent program in a "normal" language 18:09:59 take a little trip to lisp 18:10:08 and then you can okus 18:10:14 oops 18:10:32 okand then your 18:10:32 it's not only the language, but the environment 18:10:35 damn 18:10:36 sorry 18:10:37 the repl for example is key 18:10:40 Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has joined #lisp 18:10:54 joswig [n=joswig@85.177.156.2] has joined #lisp 18:11:02 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177156002.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:11:12 the language makes the environment more effective, though. 18:11:21 hypno: All lispbuilder-sdl developement is done on Windows, then ported to OS X and Linux. 18:13:05 Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-18.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:13:34 say, in eclipse for Java, there is no repl, there are many cases when you can't inspect variables, state of the running program 18:13:53 often you modify code and it simply can't replace it in the running program -> restart is needed 18:14:32 that also means you loose a lot of state that you have to rebuild (clicking, typing, etc.) 18:14:59 the whole trial and error is so much longer that it even changes the way you are thinking, i'm serious 18:16:04 but, hey C++ is an order of magnitude worse than Java... ;-) 18:16:25 -!- letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 18:17:21 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has joined #lisp 18:18:16 gigamonkey: Your book is on slashdot. 18:18:17 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 18:18:58 nice. 18:20:50 -!- Guest32072 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 18:22:47 lisp looks a little similar to sql some times 18:22:55 -!- iwaki [n=hide@PPPa272.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:26:23 :O 18:26:44 emma: What similarities are you seeing there? (: 18:27:00 schme: case folding, maybe 18:27:27 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:27:33 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:27:42 (: 18:27:44 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:28:18 *schme* agrees on the lisp being good for prototyping because you don't have to already have thought it all out beforehand (: 18:29:41 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Client Quit] 18:32:17 i think it's an unfortunate marketing term, "prototyping". people associate that with "quick and dirty", "hacky", etc. 18:33:15 Ya think? 18:33:23 and while CL is excellent to ponder ideas in, of course, writing anything serious is quite far from some obscure "prototyping" as well, ime. 18:33:38 *schme* does not associate it in those directions at all actually. 18:34:32 Though I am used to prototyping stuff that isn't exactly software.. nothing hackish about it. (: 18:35:47 We need to reclaim the name word! 18:36:06 uh 18:36:08 prototype word 18:36:09 wow. 18:36:24 *schme* apperently needs some sleep (: 18:36:29 happy hacking, #lisp! 18:37:28 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-204-194.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:38:06 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has joined #lisp 18:38:51 lispm [n=joswig@e177156002.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:38:56 -!- joswig [n=joswig@85.177.156.2] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:39:02 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 18:40:00 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-204-194.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 18:45:45 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:45:59 -!- morganb [n=user@wsip-98-188-196-29.ga.at.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:47:45 ln5 [n=ln5@h199n2c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 18:47:49 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 18:53:59 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:55:03 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:55:56 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-101-220.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:21 KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:19 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has joined #lisp 19:00:28 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:01:48 -!- omichael [n=user@64.34.179.211] has quit ["ERC Version 4.0 $Revision: 1.600 $ (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:06:48 laynor [n=laynor@93.107.159.53] has joined #lisp 19:06:53 antgreen` [n=user@bas2-toronto06-1177888238.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:10:47 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-171-88.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:11:59 elias` [n=c@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:12:21 does SBCL / other popular implementations support C callbacks being invoked at arbitrary points in time? 19:12:33 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068078072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:13:01 by which I mean outside of a CFFI funcall expecting callbacks to be invoked 19:13:46 if so, can I expect said callbacks to stay put once defined, or can addresses change? 19:14:21 mathrick: I suspect that implementations that support callbacks have support for planting them at fixed addresses 19:14:52 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 19:14:56 I'd expect that too, but implicit assumptions should be made explicit to avoid nasty surprises :) 19:15:06 If I ever get around to porting some lisp to VMS I'd have a field day with callbacks... 19:15:23 why's that? 19:15:49 mathrick: it has only asynchronous I/O :D 19:16:31 i thought of a cool thing that could be made by you advanced lispers 19:17:11 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:31 imagine a website that uses some 'A.I' written in lisp, where people could go to say "I want a function (or operator or macro) that I can do such and such with" and the A. I would point them to the function (or operator or macro) that could do that. 19:18:17 emma: sure, call me back when I finish my AGI 19:18:25 Like I want some function that can generate some random numbers. 19:18:26 okay 19:18:32 sorry, too busy making mario animated gifs 19:18:35 /end{sarcasm} 19:18:44 if you know the name, or parts of it, you can use l1sp.org, e.g. http://l1sp.org/search/remove 19:19:13 -!- laynor_ [n=laynor@93.107.26.166] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:19:16 do you guys remember that 21 questions website? 19:19:42 emma: yes. 19:19:43 that tells me that it would be possible. Like you are 'thinking of' a need, and it can tell you what to use. 19:19:48 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 19:20:08 ive never heard of anything like that for any other language. 19:20:57 slyrus_: blog down? 19:21:34 Xach: ok, thanks 19:21:38 emma: the 21 questions site wasn't very smart 19:21:54 i mean, the idea and execution were great, but there wasn't a lot of magic 19:22:29 it usually won 19:22:43 -!- antgreen [n=user@bas2-toronto06-1177888238.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:22:53 if the human was reasonable and honest it almost always was right. 19:23:09 Xach: I'm not sure if this is good or bad news, but I can't see the box :( at least hunchentoot/sbcl aren't (obviously) to blame... 19:23:19 mathrick: Most lisps have probleif an unknown thread makes a callback into the Lisp image. 19:23:20 emma: the problem with that is it requires an enormous investment of human input before it starts giving anything resembling useful answers 19:23:48 yeah.. same thing with a wiki, but then you have a better interface. 19:23:54 Balooga: right, that was my suspicion 19:23:55 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:24:31 Corman Lisp lets you 'bless' an unknown thread to allow for this. 19:25:32 Xach: perhaps somebody broke the internet again :) 19:25:44 mathrick, im just trying to throw out some ideas, as i have them, as someone trying to learn lisp, for the sake of anyone who might be able to make something that will advance the popularity of lisp. 19:26:01 mathick: CCL should be able take callbacks from any C thread. 19:26:10 ok, noted 19:26:29 Balooga: what about making a trampoline function for callbacks, where the "unknown caller" gets stopped while the trampoline gives control to separate, lisp thread? 19:27:05 emma: right, the intention is noble, but the execution lacking. Usually ideas of "something someone else could do to fix a problem I perceive" are not terribly good for solving actual problems 19:27:20 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:27:47 if you want to fix things that keep people away from lisp, find problems that plague you *right now* and start fixing them, then ask for help if you get stuck 19:28:06 okay i'll try 19:28:47 you're a good target for your own solution, as you yourself declare you a newbie 19:28:49 Xach: you should start a 'naggum a day' blag :) 19:29:06 get your daily kick in the groin 19:29:10 so you should know what the problems are 19:29:18 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:29:31 rme: not when the thread lisp calls creates a thread, and this 'unknown' thread calls back into the image. 19:29:33 and while you solve them, you'll also get enough experience to stop being newbie 19:29:46 mathrick, yes that's how i see it also. But I can't make all the kinds of things that would make things better for a newbie because I dont know lisp yet. 19:29:55 drewc: i thought about things like that 19:30:05 Balooga: ah, but as long as the thread is known, is it kosher? 19:30:09 rme: Clozure Common Lisp, or Corman Common Lisp ? :) 19:30:19 emma: start first, then ask 19:30:21 How can we draw text in Opengl? 19:30:21 19:30:24 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-204-194.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:30:32 elias` [n=c@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:30:32 mathrick, i'll see if I can set up a wiki to make a better common lisp documentation for new users. 19:30:39 Balooga: CCL is always Clozure 19:30:41 Balooga: I was talking about Clozure CL, sorry. 19:30:45 corman is corman 19:30:57 p_l: never looked at doing it that way. I just end up creating a native glue library to take care of it. 19:30:59 I need a simple module to integrate with cl-glfw 19:31:13 p_l: Can you provide a link? 19:31:17 emma: yep, that's one solution. You could also start coding up the answer bot. It's not terribly difficult to do at its core 19:31:20 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-204-194.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 19:31:35 Balooga: I can't, unless there's an URI scheme for ideas in someone's brain :D 19:31:39 then you can test how well it works in practice, and how much effort adding new information is 19:32:38 ehe, gigamonkey got his book reviewed on slashdot :) 19:32:39 p_l, Balooga: fortunately that's not a terribly big obstacle, as most libraries declare that to be out of bounds anyway 19:32:43 mathrick: Correct. Callbacks from 'known' threads are no problem. 19:32:56 Is corman older than clozure? 19:33:03 Balooga: also in SBCL, when it's not otherwise expecting to be called? 19:33:06 if so, cool 19:33:13 lhz: by that name, yes 19:33:18 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:33:20 Balooga: what about callbacks from OS? 19:33:20 heh 19:33:22 lhz: in some form, no 19:33:37 -!- antgreen` [n=user@bas2-toronto06-1177888238.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:33:46 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest31723 19:33:47 p_l: these always go in a thread *or* as a signal 19:34:37 you can't just randomly call shit in an unexpecting thread from the kernel 19:34:43 mathrick: heh, I'm just thinking about VMS-like system, where most system calls are based on callbacks 19:34:52 what I said still holds 19:35:17 Did CCL use to be corman? 19:35:21 never 19:35:25 it used to be OpenMCL 19:35:37 I guess so. Still it's interesting topic (I'm planning on playing around with OS design at some point, so...) 19:35:41 lhz: for a while, i think 19:36:05 also, I think I got too used to using "shit" as a placeholder, apologies 19:36:07 http://www.clozure.com/clozurecl.html has the naming history 19:38:05 rme: thanks, but it doesn´t say if they hijacked the "CCL" name from corman 19:38:46 http://www.google.dk/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=ccl+corman 19:39:03 apparently yes, it's not an entirely unknown abbreviation for Corman CL 19:39:21 angie [n=angie@unaffiliated/angie] has joined #lisp 19:39:26 lhz: Coral CL is older than Corman CL 19:39:46 Xach: coral cl? 19:39:53 Xach: the plot thickens 19:39:54 mathrick: read the webpage referenced 19:40:04 I thought I did 19:40:14 "In 1984, Coral Sofware began development of a Common Lisp for the Macintosh, called Coral Common Lisp (CCL)." 19:40:19 oh, right 19:40:27 I think I actually have a box for that somewhere. :) 19:40:33 sicko 19:40:39 I can't wait for Rich Hickey's Clojure CL 19:40:40 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:40:46 lol 19:40:50 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 19:41:37 *Krystof* plans Christophe's Common Lisp 19:41:40 http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/9gnne/elf_another_perl_implementation_project_with_an/ <-- perl 6 confuses me to no end 19:41:55 -!- Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has quit ["Balooga has no reason"] 19:42:00 Unexpected success: external-format.impure.lisp / (CHARACTER-DECODE-LARGE FORCE-END-OF-FILE) 19:43:54 oh, while you mention it, Krystof: is there a function that will give me the size in bytes a string will take when encoded with a given external encoding? 19:44:37 *drewc* writes his Crampsie Common Lisp 19:44:42 (length (string-to-octets string :external-format xf)) 19:45:08 -!- ejs [n=eugen@67-0-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:45:26 thanks 19:45:51 damn ... look like lots to read in c.l.l till it turns out to be gavino. 19:46:03 where are all the fd-streams experts? 19:46:09 *drewc* changed killfiles at some point it seems 19:46:14 zoldar [n=zoldar@kyh66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:46:31 drewc: lol 19:47:35 hmm, got a tricky question 19:47:54 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 19:48:06 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has quit ["let's see if the network works without the switch"] 19:48:11 "gavino" is one letter away from the Russian word that means "shit" 19:48:34 (this ends today's human linguistic moment) 19:48:35 how far away is "younder" from something similar? 19:48:38 now I can do: lisp source as string -> source tree -> walked tree 19:48:45 all linked together back and forth 19:48:53 but don't really know what to do with macros 19:48:57 younder/jthing is even odder IMO 19:49:38 gavino at least is a pure troll 19:49:44 the problem with macros is that you don't know what is the relation between the original form and the expanded version 19:49:55 jthing seems to be honest in his cluelessness, which is unsettling 19:50:27 levy: I think it's pretty much agreed that this problem has no solution 19:50:36 we talking about the same jthing who is constantly giving irrelevent advice and spewing random profanity? 19:50:40 so it is very difficult (hopefully not impossible) to link the original source tree with the walked result 19:51:00 -!- weareyourfriend [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 19:51:08 drewc: yeah 19:51:11 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:52:13 i don't know how honest it is, especially with itself ;). Seems to think that it knows something about lisp and that people care about its opinions :D 19:52:28 (i'm still not convinced it's human) 19:52:50 minion: logs? 19:52:50 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 19:54:06 cmm, ah, you mean CL is not turing complete? 19:54:06 :) 19:54:23 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209.217.212.34] has quit [] 19:54:24 drewc: if it's an AI, then I'd like to meet the creator and congratulate them on such an amazing development. But otherwise, it seems to be a very, very confused individual, which is saddening 19:54:29 of course it would be doable by reimplementing the macro to support this back referencing, but that is not so useful 19:54:37 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:44 another way would be to replace each atom with something else, that acts like the original atom except it has identity (e.g. 2 and 2 are different objects and the same for symbols) 19:54:53 this one is probably difficult like hell 19:55:05 but the only one remotely feasible 19:55:29 mathrick: sadly, you're likely correct. 19:55:39 fortunately most macros keep most of the original cons cells, so there is no problem with their identity 19:56:26 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 19:57:28 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 19:58:24 for example a with-transaction macro that does not introduce lexically visible names (hygenic) and just repeats its body can be handled pretty easily 20:01:05 hmm, I have no other idea... let me know if you have! 20:02:26 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslo243.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:03:00 rpg [n=rpg@fw.bryant.dunn.pcspeed.com] has joined #lisp 20:04:23 -!- Coliveira is now known as coliv 20:05:36 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:41 leave: /part #lisp 20:05:41 20:05:45 test 20:06:09 hi 20:06:09 20:06:16 -!- nvntung [n=user@147.210.246.189] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:06:16 hi 20:06:40 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:42 prip_ [n=_prip@host147-194-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:11:48 -!- prip [n=_prip@host147-194-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:13:49 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:53 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:16:45 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:16:46 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:19:56 -!- angie [n=angie@unaffiliated/angie] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:20:10 hmm, i've got an idea 20:20:20 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 20:21:28 so pass in the form with recursively replacing everything with an object the represents the identity 20:21:38 call macroexpand with an interpreter 20:22:04 whenever something is called with such a value take the original value instead 20:22:24 except when calling list building functions such as cons, list, etc. 20:22:34 probably a bit fragile, but might work 20:22:47 comments? 20:23:23 eh, do you know what i'm talking about? 20:23:33 i don't 20:24:04 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-wjnhyzijsmxckktc] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:24:05 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 20:24:05 doesn't sound workable 20:24:22 HET2 [n=diman@cpc2-cdif3-0-0-cust803.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 20:24:33 jsnell, what difficulties do you see? 20:24:34 it's probably best to admit that you can only get a vague heuristic 20:24:47 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 20:24:57 (like sbcl has for the source location generation) 20:25:21 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.208.75] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:26:01 all the code in the whole system would need to be running through this interpreter 20:26:54 not just the macro definition 20:28:08 jsnell, sure, but I have that already working to some level in the partial evaluator 20:28:17 even generic functions are supported via interpretation 20:28:31 but this isn't just a matter of "supported" 20:28:58 I could partial evaluate a make-instance from the original sbcl source down to an optimized version which is as fast as the hand optimized version in sbcl 20:28:59 it's a matter of "the whole system must be running in this interpreter" 20:29:27 blitz_ [n=blitz@dslb-094-222-085-253.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:36 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 20:29:58 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 20:30:04 but I don't know your constraints, of course. I've thought about this problem a lot from sbcl's viewpoint, and never found a answer that would be generally workable 20:30:19 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:23 -!- emacs-dwim [n=user@74.71.11.230] has left #lisp 20:32:26 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:32:39 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:44 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-25-137.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:33:12 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:33:31 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:52 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 20:34:19 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.208.75] has joined #lisp 20:34:56 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-17-166.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:36:58 -!- chessguy_work is now known as chessguy 20:37:15 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:37:36 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:41:05 Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:26 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.100.92] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:43:58 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-98-245-87-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:44:01 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-98-245-87-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:49 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:45:51 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:48:08 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:48:10 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-204-194.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:48:19 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:22 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:54:07 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-131.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:23 drewc: herep 20:54:56 morganb [n=user@n128-227-204-145.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #lisp 20:55:19 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:25 minion: memo for drewc: the box seems to be still standing but I accidentally inflicted a Slashdoting on tech.coop today--Coders at Work was reviewed there. 20:55:25 Remembered. I'll tell drewc when he/she/it next speaks. 20:55:54 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 21:00:00 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.84] has joined #lisp 21:00:13 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2E20.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:23 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:01:47 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:02:11 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 21:03:10 tagac [n=user@46.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:03:48 Ogedei [n=user@e178215123.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:04:48 gigamonkey: cool .. i like getting slashdotted! 21:04:48 drewc, memo from gigamonkey: the box seems to be still standing but I accidentally inflicted a Slashdoting on tech.coop today--Coders at Work was reviewed there. 21:05:01 *drewc* goes to check the load 21:07:12 well, fwiw, cl-net's trac is 10x more load inducing than a slashdotting. 21:08:19 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:12:14 Well, also I'd hope people are really heading off to Amazon, not to codersatwork.com (though if they went through my site on their way to Amazon it wouldn't be bad.) 21:12:43 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:12:50 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:09 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 21:16:03 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:16:20 Yeah, Trac sucks resources. 21:24:26 -!- morganb [n=user@n128-227-204-145.xlate.ufl.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:25:56 -!- Ogedei [n=user@e178215123.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:26:39 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:27:14 -!- PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit ["leaving"] 21:28:06 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:18 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-qewkhiiecgoyziyy] has joined #lisp 21:30:05 -!- raptelan [n=Casey@68.49.132.34] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:31:39 -!- tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:34:14 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-57.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 21:34:18 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32CF9A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:38 Can anybody point me to an example of sb-alien callbacks? 21:35:21 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [] 21:35:57 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:35:58 -!- tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit ["leaving"] 21:36:09 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:38:18 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:38:19 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 21:38:58 elias`_ [n=c@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:39:13 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:39:19 -!- elias`_ is now known as elias` 21:39:23 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:39:42 tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 21:41:31 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177156002.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:42:24 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B662.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:50 seangrove [n=user@wsip-70-169-226-183.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:03 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2E20.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:47:11 -!- rpg [n=rpg@fw.bryant.dunn.pcspeed.com] has quit [] 21:48:15 morensel [n=phil@unaffiliated/romani] has joined #lisp 21:48:16 you use ; to make a comment in common lisp. Yes? 21:49:14 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B662.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 21:50:05 emma: yes 21:53:00 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:53:48 <_3b> there is also #| |# and #+(or) depending on how much you want to comment 21:54:03 -!- nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [""The bottom line is, money sucks big time, but I still want some." -- Doc"] 21:54:48 -!- ln5 [n=ln5@h199n2c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:56:30 -!- elias` is now known as ve 21:59:01 raptelan [n=Casey@c-68-49-132-34.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:00 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:01:18 emma: feel free to pm me for trivial questions 22:01:31 for some reason, I still enjoy helping out new lispers 22:03:19 merus [n=merus@c-67-175-45-120.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:31 -!- ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:04:05 -!- seangrove [n=user@wsip-70-169-226-183.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:04:33 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:04:45 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:50 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B662.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:12 seangrove [n=user@wsip-70-169-226-183.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:55 well, never mind, that was easy. 22:09:19 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 22:09:22 for some reason i really enjoy programming C when i get to do it from lisp :) 22:09:45 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:41 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B662.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 22:13:17 -!- Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:15:07 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:17:33 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:49 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:33 cool planet.lisp.org is on the whattheinternetknowsaboutyou.com site :) 22:23:04 |newbie| [n=kvirc@130.225.192.232] has joined #lisp 22:23:27 -!- |newbie| [n=kvirc@130.225.192.232] has left #lisp 22:23:32 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:24:57 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:28:26 rread__ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-pgscphflwhabrtfn] has joined #lisp 22:30:16 -!- seangrove [n=user@wsip-70-169-226-183.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:31:25 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:32 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:32:41 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:43 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:35:00 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-qewkhiiecgoyziyy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:35:00 -!- rread__ is now known as rread 22:36:29 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 22:38:03 -!- badon [n=KCXYCL@75-169-51-194.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:39:02 -!- rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:39:34 badon [n=KCXYCL@75-169-51-194.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:42 -!- raptelan [n=Casey@c-68-49-132-34.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:39:48 raptelan [n=Casey@c-68-49-132-34.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:55 -!- raptelan [n=Casey@c-68-49-132-34.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:40:05 raptelan [n=Casey@c-68-49-132-34.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:41 serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-188-53.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:41:48 good evening 22:42:59 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.208.75] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 22:47:00 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B662.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:15 hello 22:54:27 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229078248.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 22:54:37 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:56:44 Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:57:32 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:34 is 'defvar' an approparite way to give lists variable names? 22:59:50 depends 23:00:08 emma: often defparameter or let are better. 23:00:09 I am trying to store a list in memory long enough to work on it. 23:00:17 let sounds promising. 23:00:30 emma: in general defparameter is what you want. 23:00:45 okay thanks i'll investigate those. 23:00:47 defvar assigns the variable only if it not already bound. 23:00:48 I would recommend (as per PAIP) to use defvar for bindings that will be programmatically changed (the kind you don't want to reset when you C-c C-k), and defparameter for hard-coding stuff like lists and stuff, that you might want to reset every now and then, by hand. 23:01:32 That is, strangely enough, you'd use defvar for your program parameters, and defparameters for your program variables... 23:02:12 pjb: I wouldn't put stuff in defparameter that I'm expecting to change unless I specifically plan on resetting by re-evaluating. 23:02:30 so I don't think it should really be much of a variable 23:02:59 emma: beware that defvar and defparameter define special variables. Name them with *stars*. 23:03:11 *earmuffs* 23:03:17 *coldleftear 23:03:18 my use is to store a list as a variable so that i can work within the program on the variable, adding stuff to it, and giving it back the same name. 23:03:33 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:04:21 xan-afk_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 23:04:31 emma: just use defparameter for everything right now. You'll know when you want to use defvar eventually. 23:04:50 emma: just remember that re-evaluating a defparameter form will reset the value (so reloading a file will reset all the work you've done) 23:04:59 morganb [n=user@wsip-98-188-196-29.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:04 sykopomp: got clouchdb working with ad-hoc-view! 23:05:10 yeah that's okay 23:05:11 mogunus: yay! 23:05:32 sykopomp: it was a small patch. man, this library is soooo much nicer than cl-couch... code is actually understandable! 23:05:43 mogunus: I told you. The API is awesome. 23:05:53 sykopomp: agreed. you were right. 23:06:05 mogunus: do you have a git repo up with the changes? I'd like to pull them into my github branch. 23:06:11 sykopomp: now I can get along with the job of obsessively cataloging and tagging al my posessions! 23:06:29 mogunus: how's dbfs going, btw? 23:06:36 sykopomp: I'm going to go do laundry, and then figure out how to get that done. the changes are like, two lines. 23:06:55 sykopomp: pretty well. I'm hooking inotify with cffi 23:07:03 sweet 23:07:11 sykopomp: and now that I have full couchdb functionality, stuff will start to come together 23:07:19 sykopomp: and then I can start building the fun parts :-) 23:07:20 you should get yourself a github account so I can follow you, man :P 23:07:27 raptelan_ [n=Casey@c-68-49-132-34.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:30 *sykopomp* cackles 23:07:47 -!- raptelan [n=Casey@c-68-49-132-34.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:07:49 yah... that's beginning to look like a really nice idea 23:07:54 github seems quite friendly 23:08:09 this whole asking-how-project-is-going-for-anything-but-courtesy is so passe 23:08:22 :P 23:08:30 when we can have perfect automated updates of what our buddies work on? 23:08:50 what do you mean? github already does that. 23:09:02 you can do it on a per-person or per-project basis 23:09:06 that is what I meant, sorry, I was being ambiguious 23:09:10 oic 23:09:26 but yeah... social networking that I might not hate! fascinating 23:09:43 mogunus: you know what's really hilarious? 23:09:55 sykopomp: what? 23:10:13 mogunus: https://www.ohloh.net/languages/22 aww, it's gone now. 23:10:37 oh god 23:10:43 stassats beat me :P. I used to be #25 in the left column there, which is hilarious since I'm a nub. 23:10:44 you just made my computer barf 23:10:50 buh? 23:10:53 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2E20.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:04 I had like 33 tabs open in a closed firefox session 23:11:12 ERC uses firefox to open web links 23:11:16 I forgot this for a second 23:11:28 ERC uses what is configured in emacs. 23:11:45 and lo, a million tabs did blossom. 23:11:46 My emacs is configured to use w3m, so my erc uses that. 23:11:55 pjb: I keep forgetting to switch it to conkeror 23:12:39 sykopomp: I finally made the switch pretty much wholesale 23:12:55 -!- Cassio [i=Cassio@151.61.94.223] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:13:02 sykopomp: you were right; conkeror is really good stuff. 23:13:49 sykopomp: I love your "recently active" place :-) 23:15:16 :D 23:15:27 mogunus: it's a side-effect of using git, I think. 23:15:31 at least, from what I'm told. 23:15:44 I enjoy git. 23:15:53 I make a ton of very small commits. I'm told when using cvs/svn, people usually make very large commits. 23:15:58 I use it to manage my "digital notebook" in emacs org-mode across like three computers. 23:16:23 oh nice 23:16:29 -!- xan-afk [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:16:33 conkeror could really use some work, btw 23:16:40 I 23:16:45 am considering hacking on it 23:16:45 I'm particularly unhappy with the way it does bookmarks 23:17:03 I'm sortof hoping to take over the bookmarks with my GMM thing. 23:17:08 they seem to be a pretty open bunch. I'm sure they'd be pretty helpful if you tried to do something. 23:17:14 GMM? 23:17:19 After I catalog all my posession with couchdb, my next target is a book mark manager. 23:17:24 generic metadata manager 23:17:26 oh that 23:17:39 is that what you call the dbfs, or is it only a component? 23:17:45 that's what I call it 23:17:48 oh ok 23:17:58 sykopomp, i think i found another way 23:18:12 (set 'x '(1 2 3)) 23:18:20 emma: set is deprecated. Don't use it. 23:18:20 then if i evaluate x it returns (1 2 3) 23:18:32 I'll do a web-based and an HTTP protocol front-end to a bookmark manager in CL/couchdb. 23:18:36 and you should still declare variables that you're going to set the value of. 23:18:43 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:19:02 that seems strange that they would deprecate a nice way to do something. Declare the variables? 23:19:08 so if you're going to have a list, for example, do (defparameter *my-list* ()), then (setf *my-list* '(1 2 3)) and so on. 23:19:09 since JSON is so easy to deal with in javascript, writing a chill conkeror interface to such a beast should be fun. 23:19:27 emma: (set 'x 'foo) -> (setq x 'foo) -> (setf x 'foo) 23:19:47 sykopomp: they're not the same. 23:19:51 -!- aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host59-46-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:20:00 pjb: it's an evolution. 23:20:01 (set 'x 'foo) <=> (setf (symbol-value 'x) 'foo) 23:20:03 apparently the q in setq means quote. 23:20:14 meant. 23:20:24 although I thought (setq x y) -> (set (quote x) y) 23:20:44 anyways 23:20:55 (set 'x 'foo) is defined portably. (setq x 'foo) (without a previous defvar or defparameter of x) is undefined. 23:20:58 so if i get what you are saying, 'defparam' is a way to 'DECLARE' a variable? 23:21:01 emma: defparameter the variable first, if it's going to be global. Then use setf on it to change it. 23:21:13 okay 23:21:15 yes, it's a way to declare a global special variable. 23:21:30 the other way is to use LET 23:21:33 are questions of the nature Im asking inappropriate for this channel? 23:21:41 no, the questions are perfectly ontopic. 23:21:46 emma: not at all. beginner questions are welcome. 23:21:58 anyways, dinner. 23:21:58 (set 'x 'a) (defun f () x) (let ((x 'b)) (f)) --> a 23:22:05 okay i just dont want to overdo it or ask something particularly banal. Do appreciate the disambiguation and subtle points though. 23:22:09 (defparameter x 'a) (defun f () x) (let ((x 'b)) (f)) --> b 23:22:13 pjb: oh god. 23:22:51 emma: when I was starting out, the disambiguation/subtle material coming from #lisp in response to my seemingly basic questions would sneak up on me, months later, and make sense. 23:23:13 emma: you can probably expect a similar sort of experience 23:23:42 i hope so! 23:24:31 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:24:44 the subtle and apparently very esoteric material that comes from #lisp in response to seemingly basic questions some times makes me think that lisp requires something a little more than other languages, like maybe, a masters degree in computer science. :) 23:25:54 -!- tagac [n=user@46.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:25:57 get over it. 23:28:33 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslo243.osnanet.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 23:30:31 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:38 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B662.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:35:10 julian_ [n=julian@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 23:35:38 -!- rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:35:54 -!- julian_ [n=julian@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:36:04 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:15 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [] 23:37:38 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:38:58 julian_ [n=julian@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 23:38:58 -!- julian_ [n=julian@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:39:56 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Client Quit] 23:41:41 -!- demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-078-150.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 23:42:36 badonaway [n=KCXYCL@75-169-51-194.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:34 -!- badon [n=KCXYCL@75-169-51-194.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:46:17 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-pgscphflwhabrtfn] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:46:17 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 23:46:49 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:46:59 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:00 rvirding [n=chatzill@h6n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 23:47:57 badon [n=KCXYCL@75-169-51-194.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:39 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-131.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:53:08 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:53:29 -!- badon [n=KCXYCL@75-169-51-194.slkc.qwest.net] has quit ["Client Exiting"] 23:53:30 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@90.149.117.111] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:53:51 ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-149-25.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:19 badon [n=KCXYCL@75-169-51-194.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:02 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@90.149.117.111] has joined #lisp 23:58:25 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E11A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:58:29 KevinFish [n=fish@c-98-208-14-225.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp