00:00:03 hehe 00:00:22 at one channel we had problems defining whether a certain nick was just a troll or a markov chain 00:00:58 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:08 I was personally trying to make a "service" with a personality :D 00:02:21 including some emulation of emotions :) 00:03:02 -!- aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@79.45.46.59] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:03:16 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@pool-173-73-92-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:50 aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host59-46-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 00:03:51 -!- Tordek_ is now known as Tordek 00:04:08 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 00:04:53 one of the alicebot implementations is in CL IIRC 00:05:48 anyone want to do a quick code review here? http://github.com/joevandyk/Joe-s-Lisp-Exercises/tree/93fa456074878dec582a38f6af331c128353fb79/work/exercises 1-4.lisp and check-equal.lisp 00:05:50 <[Jackal]> Some of the conversations I've had on IRC were worse than Doctor-Zippy sessions. 00:06:04 i'm interested to know if i'm using the correct style 00:06:28 <_3b> joevandyk: s/lst/list/ 00:06:44 i.e. on http://github.com/joevandyk/Joe-s-Lisp-Exercises/blob/93fa456074878dec582a38f6af331c128353fb79/work/exercises/4.lisp , should i define a function inside a function there? 00:06:54 _3b: that confuses my editor. :D 00:07:07 -!- chessguy_work is now known as chessguy 00:07:19 at least the syntax highlighting is wrong in vim 00:07:21 http://www.pandorabots.com/botmaster/en/home is the one ... even the website is served via Allegro CL 00:07:32 joevandyk: what file do you want us to watch? 00:07:41 4.lisp and check-equal.lisp 00:07:48 1.lisp: my-last doesn't return the last element, it returns the last cons cell. 00:08:03 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 00:08:06 <_3b> joevandyk: (- index 1) -> (1- index) 00:08:13 so either the implementation is wrong (-1 point) or the comment is wrong (-2 points). 00:08:40 joevandyk: do not defun inside defun. 00:08:49 joevandyk: your variable names are horrible! 00:08:49 joevandyk: if you want a local function, use flet or labels. 00:08:50 pjb: why not? 00:08:51 <_3b> ;;; for header comments, ;; for inline comments ; for comments on same line as code 00:09:06 pjb: haven't read about flet or labels yet 00:09:22 <_3b> (+ 1 i) -> (1+ i) 00:09:23 Then leave current-count on the toplevel. 00:09:53 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 00:09:59 We cannot really help with style if you are using a subset of Common Lisp. Too many artificial constraints. 00:10:07 pjb: in '(a b), the last cons cell is '(b), and the last element is b, correct? 00:10:16 Yes. 00:10:19 pjb: no, that's fine! i'm just saying i haven't got that far. 00:10:32 <_3b> joevandyk: what are the (let () for? 00:10:39 what was special about steel bank common lisp? 00:10:40 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:43 (let () are useless. 00:10:47 pjb: and i want to make sure as I learn lisp that i do it correctly and start on the right foot. 00:10:52 is it the defacto standard common lisp implementation? 00:10:53 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@128.253.170.35] has quit [] 00:11:00 _3b: I used that to start iterative programming :( 00:11:08 On the other hand, you can make a closure with: (let ((last-result :success)) (defun ...)) 00:11:21 <_3b> joevandyk: so you meant PROGN? 00:11:22 emma: no, it is one of many, but a lot of people here use it. 00:11:31 pjb: i tried that, and i thought it yelled at me for using :success as a variable. 00:11:36 <_3b> joevandyk: not that PROGN is needed there either 00:11:37 i'll try it again 00:11:51 joevandyk: notice the parentheses. 00:12:06 LET takes a LIST of sublists (variable value) bindings. 00:12:21 iwaki [n=hide@PPPa272.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:12:36 Don't forget (let (a b c) ...) 00:12:44 emma: no, it simply is one of the best *free* implementations. On linux, outside of SBCL and CCL, unless you have special requirements I wouldn't go for other implementations 00:13:16 Zhivago: this is an "advanced" form. Newbies must learn (let ((a nil) (b nil) (c nil)) ...) first. 00:13:31 Zhivago: same as 'x vs. (quote x) too :-) 00:13:34 pjb: ah, thanks on the let (( ... )) note. makes sense. 00:13:40 dysinger_ [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:02 joevandyk: No. not (let (( ... ))! It is: (let ((var val) ...) ...) 00:14:29 pjb: yeah, that's what i meant 00:14:31 ok. 00:15:14 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-101-220.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:24 http://github.com/joevandyk/Joe-s-Lisp-Exercises/blob/440f61a3b4547e76e2a097740a249bf52345ab30/work/exercises/check-equal.lisp 00:15:26 <_3b> joevandyk: also, i'd use SETf instead of SETQ 00:15:38 _3b: let me look up the difference again 00:15:59 <_3b> SETF works on more things than SETQ does 00:16:08 can i use PROGN instead of the let() inside of last-result on http://github.com/joevandyk/Joe-s-Lisp-Exercises/blob/440f61a3b4547e76e2a097740a249bf52345ab30/work/exercises/check-equal.lisp ? 00:16:15 joevandyk: in check-equal.lisp you setq a toplevel variable LAST-RESULT without having defined it. This invokes undefined behavior. 00:16:20 oops, print-result 00:16:37 <_3b> joevandyk: yes, but you don't need either 00:16:40 drewc: i do? 00:16:44 <_3b> DEFUN has an implicit PROGN already 00:16:48 joevandyk: oh,never mind not in the new one there 00:16:52 _3b: oh.... 00:17:01 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:17:23 _3b: is scheme different that way? 00:17:32 I took a scheme class in school about a decade ago 00:17:52 <_3b> i don't think so 00:19:36 if worst comes to worst I may have to actually find out what it does 00:20:01 sorry wrong chat 00:20:38 sounds like talk about some big red button without label... 00:20:46 joevandyk: i don't quite understand why you are keeping the LAST-RESULT around just to print a newline... what is it you are trying to achieve there? 00:21:29 drewc: if the last result was an error or the current result is an error, i need to start on a new line. 00:22:01 any other cleanup work I can do on http://github.com/joevandyk/Joe-s-Lisp-Exercises/raw/master/work/exercises/check-equal.lisp ? 00:22:50 p_l: no, not quite, rather java NIO 00:22:57 joevandyk: but if the current result is an error, when the next result arrives that first result will be the last-result... so why not print the newline after the current-result rather than wait for the next-result. 00:23:06 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has quit ["Ok, I'm outta here"] 00:24:10 drewc: because if the previous result was a success, and the next result is an error, i want the error to appear on its own line" 00:24:15 <_3b> printing errors with "~& ... ~%" i think would work 00:27:07 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:27:59 what's wrong with a defun inside defun? 00:28:11 <_3b> it redefines the inner function every time you call the outer function 00:28:16 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:28:25 yeah, ~& is just the thing. 00:28:57 <_3b> also, it defines a global function instead of one limited to the scope of the outer defun 00:29:52 _3b: it does? i didn't think i could call current-count 00:30:06 joevandyk: there is no 'block level' scope in list, scope is explicitly defined via certain operators. DEFUN is for global functions, FLET or LABELS is for local functions. 00:30:10 _3b: (here: http://github.com/joevandyk/Joe-s-Lisp-Exercises/raw/master/work/exercises/4.lisp ) 00:30:12 s/list/lisp 00:30:35 <_3b> joevandyk: sure, once you call number-of-elements, current-count can be called 00:31:25 _3b: ah, i see. 00:31:36 <_3b> in this case, you want LABELS 00:31:57 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h6n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:33:40 <_3b> and regarding the 'tend to always use recursion' comment, that is a reasonable thing to do in scheme, or when you know you will get TCO from your lisp 00:33:55 -!- pve_ [n=user@dsl-hkibrasgw3-ff2dc000-174.dhcp.inet.fi] has left #lisp 00:35:11 <_3b> in CL there are a number of ways to iterate over a list, hard to pick a specific one to suggest when the 'correct' solution is just to use the built-in LENGTH function though :) 00:35:24 _3b: how's http://github.com/joevandyk/Joe-s-Lisp-Exercises/raw/master/work/exercises/4.lisp ? 00:36:25 <_3b> better, i'd still replace lst with list, and (+ 1 i) with (1+ i) 00:37:00 <_3b> (and an editor that doesn't know how to highlight things with one that does, or that doesn't try if it doesn't know how to :) 00:39:24 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:39:28 -!- dysinger_ is now known as dysinger 00:39:31 <_3b> if you want to do things non-recursively, you could do (loop for i in list count 1) or (reduce '+ '(1 2 a b c) :key (constantly 1)), or something with dolist, one of the map variants, etc 00:39:47 keyboards simply are not made to use emacs. the control key is not a nice key. 00:39:50 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslha217.osnanet.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 00:39:57 <_3b> (where that quoted list would be the variable list of course) 00:40:17 *stassats* has control key in place of Caps lock 00:40:20 _3b: how's http://github.com/joevandyk/Joe-s-Lisp-Exercises/raw/master/work/exercises/4.lisp ? 00:40:31 stassats, is that a global thing in linux for all apps? 00:40:37 yes 00:40:42 how do you change that? 00:40:43 _3b: why (1+ i) ? 00:40:51 <_3b> joevandyk: (setf count (1+ count)) -> (incf count) 00:41:10 <_3b> joevandyk: 1+ is more specific 00:41:28 <_3b> you have to read 2 tokens to see what + 1 does, one token to see what 1+ does 00:41:28 setxkbmap -option ctrl:nocaps 00:41:31 i believe 00:41:52 I was thinking, what about shift+spacebar = ctrl ? 00:42:12 nah 00:42:29 you should free some fingers for other keys 00:42:43 like C-M-% 00:42:46 capslock to control works okay for when you want to type a letter with your right hand. what do you press to control a letter with the left hand? 00:43:21 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:25 ./whois emma 00:43:33 well, i got 5 fingers on the left hand, control takes only one finger 00:43:34 i am emma 00:43:42 :-) 00:43:51 it's hard to touch type like that 00:43:56 that's not how you are supposed to touch type 00:44:10 *_3b* avoids the whole issue by not touch typing. 00:44:40 i easily press caps lock with my pinkie without moving from home row 00:44:45 *drewc* just shifted his left hand over a key and adjusted 00:45:08 then how do you do ctrl-a ? 00:45:38 well, i move ring finger too 00:45:43 oh boy 00:46:00 also, you might like pedals also 00:46:04 i dont mean to be rude you know, i understand some people are very attached to these things, and i know that lisp is closely entwined with emacs... 00:46:23 Well, there's canonical touch typing, and there's people who learned touch-typing organically, without following rules.. 00:46:25 http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/fs-savant-elite.htm like this 00:46:35 im sort of surprised more people dont find keybindings like this sort of byzantine to the extreme 00:46:49 emma: emacs is entirely configurable, in lisp no less, so you are free to do whatever you want. 00:46:59 emma: a lot of people do; those people mostly don't come to #lisp 00:47:05 i play guitar a little, it's much more harder than emacs 00:47:56 stassats: i never thought about it that way, but i've been playing guitar my whole life and never had a problem with emacs :) 00:48:26 you just have to learn these things in the right order :) 00:48:33 piso, it is is in the best interest of lisp that it not tie its future to the future of emacs. 00:49:00 emma: I agree (I'm not really an emacs user myself) 00:49:09 <[Jackal]> But Emacs *is* a Lisp environment. 00:49:16 Yay, I managed to royally screw a post to mcclim-devel, by forgetting to edit the message subject.. 00:49:24 _3b: pjb thank you both for your help. 00:49:49 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:51:10 emma: emacs is quite possibly the most succesful (in terms of users) lisp system ever, and it happens to be well suited to common lisp programming as well. There are other environments out there, but many prefer emacs. 00:51:16 <[Jackal]> There is LispIDE for those using Windows. No idea how usable or active it is. You could use Eclipse with cusp and even Vim for Lisp development. 00:51:39 no im going to use emacs 00:53:04 humans are quite adaptive 00:53:37 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.227.241] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:55:25 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-131.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:09 -!- ausente is now known as bebado1 01:05:52 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:08:56 mrguser [i=entropie@114-137-29-36.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:19 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:11:11 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-199.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:13:20 -!- mrguser [i=entropie@114-137-29-36.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:15:41 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:16:17 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:16:27 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1CE8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:18:29 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:52 Athas [n=athas@80.161.87.214] has joined #lisp 01:21:09 ace4016 [i=ace4016@76.87.84.207] has joined #lisp 01:21:50 there a good online source of lisp exercises? 01:22:11 #lisp 01:22:20 heh 01:22:47 <_3b> project euler seems popular (not lisp specific though as far as i know) 01:23:14 joevandyk: SICP, if you feel like translating from scheme. 01:23:18 <_3b> or sicp, or pick a project on cliki.net and start patching :) 01:23:24 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:23:51 i'm not smart enough for sicp 01:24:00 joevandyk, what kind of exercises do you want? 01:24:04 the practical sections of PCL are exercise-ish 01:24:14 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:52 joevandyk: then read it 01:25:00 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:15 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 01:26:19 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:30:25 joevandyk: SICP is an introductory textbook, you are not expected to be super-smart to read it :P 01:31:22 p_l: you'd be surprised by how dumb i am. 01:31:25 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@dslb-094-222-085-028.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:31:29 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-idybrdlokezovmil] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:31:53 anyone know of a good idiomatic lisp program that's fairly simple and easy to comprehend? 01:31:59 <_3b> you could always just pick a source of exercises for some other language and implement them in lisp :) 01:32:39 joevandyk: I recommend PCL, then. It's straight to the point 01:34:00 blitz_ [n=blitz@dslb-094-222-085-028.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:00 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-101-220.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:34:15 Thanks. One last question: best way to write a cross platform gui in lisp? 01:34:32 <_3b> write it as a web app? :p 01:34:42 -!- whoppix_ is now known as whoppix 01:35:10 <_3b> (other options are mcclim, ltk, and various qt or gtk bindings, but there doesn't seem to be a clear winner) 01:38:38 ltk or possibly one of the gtk bindings (some of the new ones are especially promising, with rather good integration with GObject). I'm not sure about Qt (yet - it's just harder to make bindings to C++) 01:38:39 _3b: is cello recommended? 01:38:48 commonqt is the nicest of the lot IMO 01:38:49 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 01:39:09 <_3b> the qt bindings seem to be doing betterthan gtk lately, despite the c++ issues 01:39:11 oh, hm, not done yet 01:39:12 p_l: the smoke library has complete C bindings to all of QT and KDE 01:39:38 drewc: I know, I'm just... cautious in using it outside *nix systems based on GCC 01:40:07 p_l: fair enough... i wouldn't know anything about that. :) 01:40:08 frankly speaking, I'm getting cautious around anything that is in C++ ¬_¬ 01:41:28 *p_l* doesn't forget G++ breaking an if(!pointer) operation 01:41:56 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:42:56 looking at just *what* broke that if made me think of eldritch horrors (some horrible template mangling) 01:44:41 -!- bebado1 is now known as Mussum 01:46:41 back on topic of portable GUIs, mcclim unfortunately requires an X11 server unless graphic-forms backend got better, though commercial CLIM implementations are available (and expensive) 01:47:09 p_l, there's gtkairo which is at least supposed to work on win32.. 01:47:27 gtkairo still requires x11 01:47:36 Eh? 01:47:45 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:47:46 How so? 01:48:00 is there a standard way to do async network i/o in lisp? 01:48:45 CL-standard standard? no 01:48:52 otherwise? I hear iolib is popular 01:48:56 minion: iolib? 01:48:57 iolib: I/O(mainly networking) library containing: a BSD sockets library, a DNS resolver and an I/O multiplexer that supports select(2), epoll(4) and kqueue(2). http://www.cliki.net/iolib 01:49:48 deepfire: afaik it uses some unportable parts 01:51:53 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 01:51:55 hmm... I wonder if we could get a "standard" AIO library interface 01:51:59 My memory must be failing me, as I remember running examples in gtkairo under win32.. 01:52:05 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 01:52:49 I see bindings to xlib C structures, though. 01:55:22 Hmm, at least all references to the XLIB package are conditionalised on the clx backend in keygen.lisp 01:55:32 <_3b> x11 works on win32 too 01:55:56 knob [n=anon@66.50.222.67] has joined #lisp 01:56:00 Good evening everyone =) 02:01:02 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:01:06 stassats, Okay, a cursory examination of the gtakiro backend didn't yield any points where it unconditionally depends on X. Do you have any pointers? 02:01:11 huangjs [n=user@p2162-ipbf6607marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:01:25 *gtkairo 02:02:18 You've got me pretty intrigued as I seem to remember running it under win32. 02:02:38 deepfire: not really, i seem to remember that you need an x server for gtkairo, either my memory is failing, or it's no longer needed 02:02:39 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:03:04 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 02:03:09 Ok, fair enough. 02:03:13 btw, what happened to framebuffer backend? 02:03:27 -!- Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:03:56 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:13 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@dslb-094-222-085-028.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:04:18 a fully-functional framebuffer backend could be used for "quick" porting to different display systems, after all 02:06:23 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@75.36.204.63] has joined #lisp 02:08:12 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:10:05 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-73-92-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:11:20 -!- aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host59-46-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 02:18:51 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:22:25 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6FA4E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 02:24:07 -!- Athas [n=athas@80.161.87.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:25:04 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:25:07 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 02:29:22 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:30:03 -!- morganb [n=user@wsip-98-188-196-29.ga.at.cox.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:30:03 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:30:03 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:30:03 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.64] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:30:03 -!- Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:30:03 -!- easyE [i=[0w9tJXu@panix3.panix.com] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:30:03 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-170-201-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:30:03 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:30:03 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:30:03 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:30:03 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:31:36 -!- Mussum is now known as Obamis 02:32:01 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:34:19 -!- nullman [n=nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:35:08 why isn't anyone talking 02:35:12 Hey! 02:35:21 I blame the netsplit 02:35:39 I'm just a lisp n00b... got LispInABox working yesterday 02:35:40 :D 02:35:51 this thing rocks.. =) 02:35:53 oh okay 02:36:02 morganb [n=user@wsip-98-188-196-29.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:02 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 02:36:02 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 02:36:02 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.64] has joined #lisp 02:36:02 Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 02:36:02 easyE [i=[0w9tJXu@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 02:36:02 peddie [n=peddie@c-67-170-201-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:02 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:02 fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 02:36:02 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 02:36:02 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 02:36:03 knob, do you use ubuntu? 02:36:11 No... OpenBSD 02:36:15 And Vista 02:36:16 oh okay cool 02:37:24 thunk` [n=user@74-130-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 02:38:37 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 02:38:50 dys` [n=andreas@95.112.64.184] has joined #lisp 02:40:37 LispInABox is SO useful. For the longest time, my Slime config was uncooperative, and it saved me from vengeance. 02:42:10 -!- iwaki [n=hide@PPPa272.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:42:55 Anyone here know if the Hunchentoot virtual domain extension is stable? 02:43:40 \s\domain\host 02:43:42 http://cyrusharmon.com/projects?project=hunchentoot-vhost 02:44:16 you can do vhosts on teepeedee2 out of the box 02:44:18 :) 02:44:45 Well! Thanks: I'd never heard of that one before. 02:45:06 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@75.36.204.63] has quit [] 02:45:10 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.222.171] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 02:45:37 *c|mell* should disclose that he is pimping it because he made it 02:45:44 -!- rapacity [n=prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has quit [""] 02:46:08 Hahahaha :P You're welcome to make as many shameless self-plugs as you want, so long as they're useful. :P 02:46:23 How's the documentation? 02:47:40 -!- Obamis is now known as dalton 02:48:39 merus [n=merus@c-67-175-45-120.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:07 in the planning stages unfortunately :) -- there's still a bunch of stuff i want to fiddle with in the ajax dept first 02:49:55 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:58 silas428 [n=ryan@c-67-182-187-129.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:08 -!- dys [n=andreas@95.112.122.86] has quit [No route to host] 02:51:10 Well, I suppose I can manage, so long as the API makes two bits of sense. :P 02:51:27 Adlai`` [n=adlai@93-172-64-64.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 02:51:56 -!- thunk [n=user@74-130-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:52:50 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.60.152] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:52:57 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.57.218] has joined #lisp 02:53:25 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-131.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:54:42 -!- [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.95.43.97] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:56:01 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:57:09 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:00:23 nullman [n=nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:44 -!- huangjs [n=user@p2162-ipbf6607marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has left #lisp 03:03:29 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:03:31 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.79.131] has joined #lisp 03:08:17 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 03:15:53 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-131.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:49 -!- dalton is now known as brainDamage 03:18:43 -!- brainDamage is now known as dalton 03:18:50 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.64] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:23:42 Good morning everyone! 03:23:58 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:24:06 Good morning/evening! 03:25:01 Not strictly Lisp related: http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Support-Should-Never-Be-Necessary.aspx 03:25:42 Morning, beach. 03:28:02 howdy 03:29:02 Good morning! :) 03:31:23 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 03:31:50 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest33628 03:33:05 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:34:12 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 03:34:25 -!- dalton [n=user5442@187.34.44.13] has quit ["EJECT"] 03:34:57 dalton [n=user5442@187.34.44.13] has joined #lisp 03:34:59 -!- silas428 [n=ryan@c-67-182-187-129.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:36:36 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.194.7] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:43:38 I don't know if this makes Symbolics any deader than usual but it can't be good: http://symbolics.com 03:43:42 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-31-91.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 03:43:56 oh hi gigamonkey im just starting to read your book. It is very highly recommended. 03:44:11 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-64-61.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:44:31 Does anyone here remember how you get a .emacs file from clbuild in case you want to start slime without using clbuild ? 03:44:37 *gigamonkey* can't wait until less than two weeks from now when statements like that will have to be disambiguated. 03:44:50 emma: Cool! Hope you enjoy it. 03:44:56 are you publishing another book? 03:45:15 http://www.codersatwork.com 03:46:23 <_3b> emma: ./clbuild slime-configuration 03:46:38 gigamonkey, wow that looks very entertaining. 03:46:45 _3b, oh thanks very much. 03:47:04 emma: I hope so. 03:47:08 roninbv [n=roninbv@c-76-111-63-165.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:16 does anyone actually talk on IRC or does everyone just log in and sit there? 03:49:34 <_3b> roninbv: assuming you are part of 'anyone' or 'everyone', the first option would seem to be correct 03:50:05 i was hoping we would all just sit here until he concluded it was the second case and leave. 03:50:17 I suppose... 03:51:09 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:51:13 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 03:52:20 I just made the comment because the few times that I have been on IRC, I never see anyone talking. Then, when I ask a question, I usually get some comment about how I should just leave. Nice. 03:52:50 roninbv: the conversation ebbs and flows as daylight moves around the planet. 03:53:28 According to my observations, that puts most Lispers in Asia. 03:53:32 <_3b> this channel generally prefers to be quiet than off-topic also 03:54:08 I can understand that. I came here because I am new to lisp. 03:54:45 When a Lisp question gets asked, it livens up a bit, so don't worry. 03:54:56 roninbv, im new to lisp also. Didn't mean to make you feel bad. Cheer up :) 03:54:56 roninbv: there are often people who will be happy to answer questions you have. 03:55:25 (not a new programmer, just want to learn a new language. AI has always been a sort of obsession of mine, and a friend pointed me in the direction of lisp. 03:56:37 roninbv: have you started with Lisp at all? 03:57:24 heh, it's either AI or PG that lures them in, not sure which is better... (considering that neither have much to do with CL anymore...) 03:57:25 I have worked some from practical common lisp, read about the first 4 chapters, and followed along with the creation of a simple database. 03:57:29 Okay, so who on earth links to www.lisp.org? 03:57:45 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-191-200.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:47 michaelw: that's a puzzle. 03:58:01 Though it's not like Lisp is *bad* for AI if that's what you want to do. 03:58:20 gigamonkey: I think I used to like to lisp.org for some things (MOP) 03:58:44 you have a better suggestion for developing AI ? 03:58:52 gigamonkey: didn't make a value statement, just an observation 03:58:58 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 03:58:58 roninbv: which type of AI? 03:59:00 http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~mperkows/CLASS_ROBOTICS/lisp-source.html 03:59:07 Here's some old Lisp AI sources. 03:59:14 roninbv: No, I think Lisp is a great language for AI. 03:59:23 (And lot's of other things.) 03:59:39 minion: thwap for gigamonkey 03:59:39 gigamonkey: please see thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 03:59:42 That is the real question... 04:00:16 *gigamonkey* tries to think of the appropriate passive-aggressive reply to thwaps. 04:00:40 gigamonkey: "oh, get lost" :) 04:01:06 "Bite me" is the phrase that usually leaps to mind. But that'd be rude. 04:01:10 I think that AI is mostly language-independant. Your success depends more on algorithms and math than programming language. Having said that, I write almost everything for my research in CL. It is a very good language. 04:01:18 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:01:22 "Bite me's", maybe. ;-) 04:01:28 heh 04:01:37 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:01:45 I mean, if you read research papers, they're seldom going to be talking about implementation issues. 04:02:37 mogunus: I have been doing some reading on AI algorithms, seems to me that certain languages would lend themselves more easily to certain algorithms 04:03:07 roninbv: well, what type of "AI"? 04:03:14 Also, I like the idea of a programmable programming language... 04:03:29 beach, I'm at loss to explain how MEDIUM-DRAW-IMAGE-DESIGN* does not signal an error when both 1) CLX is not loaded and 2) the medium is a basic-medium 04:03:42 dysinger [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:58 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177158075.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 04:04:46 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:04:48 robinbv: If it's any help for me to say so, I have the Russel|Norvig AI textbook, and I find the algorithms (often merely porting the pseudocode; I'm a hobbyist.) particularly easy to port into Lisp. 04:05:31 But, that probably goes for anyone and their favourite language. :P 04:05:47 roninbv: lisp is definately more expressive than most languages, IMHO. But you're going to find that a lot of good work in certain fields (definately statistical NLP, at least) has been done in C++ or Java. 04:05:49 roninbv: you can implement bayesian filters, markov chains, neural nets in many languages without problem. You can implement grammars in many languages, but I'd probably reach for something with pattern matching support. For planning, I'd probably go with a constraint-based language, etc. 04:06:25 (note that CL would qualify for all, with appropriate (and existing) extensions) 04:06:58 michaelw: I would like to work with neural nets in particular. 04:07:34 roninbv: I would think that the languages that seem to lend themselves more easily to such algorithms would often also lend themselves more easily to other computing tasks. In fact, that is precisely how I see Lisp; it is just a great language to program in, pretty much no matter what you program. 04:08:38 dralston: Actually I also have the Russel|Norvig textbook. Excellent read, although not the easiest thing I have ever read. 04:08:45 ...yeah, I have to second beach. I'm in school studying statistics/NLP, and I am *much* better at the math than at the programming, but lisp is a really good general purpose programming language. 04:09:27 roninbv: Agreed. Not exactly gripping material, but it gave me some ideas I can even use external to AI. 04:10:46 I hate to run, but I have to catch some sleep. Have to be at work in about 6 hours. Thanks for being the first group of people on FreeNode not to suck. 04:11:07 "night! 04:11:13 I will come back, probably in about 7 hours. 04:11:19 night. 04:11:54 -!- roninbv [n=roninbv@c-76-111-63-165.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:12:00 why again does #lisp have the reputation of being rude to newbies? :) 04:12:14 Adlai``` [n=adlai@93-173-10-240.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 04:12:44 well, this channel has its moments, both bad and good. 04:13:52 *deepfire* stares at m-d-i-d* in state of deepening confusion 04:14:35 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p14220-ipngn1701marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:15:54 Someone should write a "so you want to learn lisp because of AI: this is what the research landscape looks like these days" document. 04:16:37 Wouldn't plagiarizing a book about the Gobi desert be less work? 04:16:42 lawful_evil [n=the_bear@cpe-76-172-12-145.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:16:51 is there a dns server done in common lisp? 04:21:55 lawful_evil: I don't know the answer, but why do you ask? 04:22:29 i saw web page of someone at franz who did it in an amazing ly low number of line of code 04:22:34 then web page disappeared 04:22:40 almost liek ir was suppressed 04:22:46 -!- Adlai`` [n=adlai@93-172-64-64.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:23:02 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:23:19 oh dear 04:23:40 lawful_evil: possible it was just running on its own poor dns implementation ;) 04:23:45 it's not everyday you see three nested bacquotes 04:23:46 lawful_evil: Many Lisp programs give an amazingly low number of lines of code compared to similar programs in other languages. 04:24:08 Heh, no idea about DNS, but github.com/franzinc has FTP and SMTP servers in CL. And even a NFS server for windows.. 04:24:11 You can get it down to 1 line, rather than 2 for C. 04:24:13 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-191-200.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:25:41 -!- Adlai``` is now known as Adlai 04:25:56 (And it has a combined IMAP/POP/SMTP client, which could supposedly be used in Stamp) 04:26:23 -!- lawful_evil [n=the_bear@cpe-76-172-12-145.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 04:26:45 lawful_evil: For instance, my latest creation is a little program to help me learn Vietnamse. It can read in one or more dictionaries, and a text, and when I put the mouse over a word in the text, the dictionary entry is displayed in a different window. The application is 277 lines of code: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/app.png. 04:27:29 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 04:27:31 morning 04:27:36 hello splittist 04:27:56 hey splittist. 04:28:21 Hey beach, hello gigamonkey 04:29:10 beach: Pretty damn cool. 04:29:26 I just received PAIP thanks to this channel. Will start reading through it tonight. 04:30:01 seangrove: Thanks! 04:31:03 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-12.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:07 Ok, if the list of applicable methods for a combination of a GF and arguments contains only a :before method, shouldn't application of said GF to said arguments signal an error? 04:32:37 csmerlin [n=smileymy@99-31-211-124.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:56 deepfire: I think it should. 04:33:03 Because, there, I have sb-mop:compute-applicable-methods provide me with unambiguous proof of guilt. 04:33:50 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 04:34:40 graphics.lisp has a method for M-D-I-D* specialised on SHEET-WITH-MEDIUM-MIXIN, which calls M-D-I-D* on the sheet's medium. 04:35:58 When the backend is gtkairo, instrumenting that method, prior to the call, reveals that there's only a before method, and yet everyone is happy. 04:37:54 hmm 04:38:34 Remind me what M-D-I-D* is! 04:38:41 Aha, binding *b-o-s* to T around the call quickly restored my sanity.. 04:38:56 beach, medium-draw-image-design* 04:39:04 ah, right! 04:39:47 Damn, this was hard to follow, I spent several hours on this one. 04:39:54 should a beginner on linux use clisp or sbcl? 04:41:15 -!- dalton [n=user5442@187.34.44.13] has quit ["eject"] 04:41:44 <_3b> joevandyk: either should be fine as long as you stay within the limits of the standard 04:41:56 Hmm, how does one discover where a condition is handled? 04:41:57 *_3b* prefers sbcl though 04:42:52 _3b: why? 04:43:04 joevandyk: I suggest CCL 04:43:27 Adlai, why? 04:43:41 *deepfire* ducks 04:43:49 SBCL has a very powerful compiler, but it takes a lot of time to compile 04:44:05 that's basically the entire reason. I like SBCL too. 04:44:11 Well, lisp has incremental compilation, so.. 04:44:13 <_3b> sbcl compiles to machine code instead of bytecode, has a license i like better 04:44:21 Some lisps do :) 04:44:32 Well, depending on what you mean by compilation. 04:45:09 <_3b> incremental compilation only goes so far when you have code that takes a good chunk of a second to compile a few line form :p 04:45:11 deepfire: it's not incremental compilation when you load a new library 04:45:42 *_3b* has so far been too lazy to see if ccl handles it betterthough 04:45:43 still, you're fine with either one of SBCL or CCL in my opinion, joevandyk 04:45:53 ha, just got limp + vim hooked up. 04:46:11 <_3b> yeah, good editor integration probably matters more than choice of lisp implementation :) 04:46:40 <_3b> (many would argue that none of the VIM options qualify, but that is a different issue) 04:46:58 _3b: problem is that i don't know what emacs can give me 04:47:05 i've used vim for 10 years 04:47:07 <_3b> emacs can give you slime 04:47:45 _3b: CCL's compiler runs much faster. I prefer CCL for when I'm in the midst of developing on idea, and then every many minutes/few hours I switch to SBCL for a quick evaluation of how stuff runs there and maybe profiling if I'm interested in performance of a function. 04:47:52 *an idea 04:48:10 dmiles [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:17 <_3b> Adlai: yeah, this code is pathological anyway though, so having to wait every once in a while helps remind me to fix it :) 04:48:43 <_3b> it could just as easily be slow on ccl, since it is mostly bookkeeping rather than actual code generation i suspect 04:49:15 what does it do? 04:49:48 antgreen [n=user@bas2-toronto06-1176110131.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:50:03 <_3b> big ugly macro that expands into a clas and a few methods, each method expands into a macrolet with way to many local macros, etc 04:50:48 -!- newerspeak [n=user@cpe-075-183-040-251.triad.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:51:12 sounds to me like it'd be slower to write the whole thing out :P 04:51:33 <_3b> heh, maybe as many as 50 macros in the macrolet :p 04:52:15 is the idea that you can write the method bodies in a DSL with all the macroletsL 04:52:17 ? 04:52:56 <_3b> it is for defining reader/writer/etc for binary data 04:53:33 c|mell [n=cmell@p14220-ipngn1701marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:54:10 <_3b> it needs refactored a bit, now that i have used it enough to figure out what it needs to do 04:55:02 _3b, what, a declarative binary format parser generator? 04:55:13 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-131.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:55:14 <_3b> deepfire: something like that, yeah 04:55:42 silas428 [n=ryan@c-67-182-187-129.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:48 _3b, wrote one too, git://git.feelingofgreen.ru/{bintype,cl-io-elf,cl-io-mod} 04:56:32 But from your words I gather you do the write side as well, which I don't.. 05:00:33 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:01:09 <_3b> yeah, reading and writing, though i don't think it is quite transparent yet 05:01:21 <_3b> (partially due to poor specs) 05:01:56 <_3b> haven't worked out a good way to handle caching encoded data either, which i would like to at some point 05:02:21 lispm [n=joswig@e177158075.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 05:02:35 <_3b> kind of annoying having to wait for it to recompress a bunch of images or whatever when i just wanted to change something unrelated :) 05:05:26 -!- thunk` [n=user@74-130-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:05:37 thunk` [n=user@74-130-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 05:09:28 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-191-200.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:54 gko [n=gko@114-137-62-101.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:23 gko` [n=gko@114-137-62-101.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:28 freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 05:16:41 what's the lisp equivalent of (ruby): require "#{File.dirname(__FILE__)}/a-file-in-the-same-directory.rb" 05:16:46 Hi! I am using cl-pprce to replace strings like 2( with 2*(. I create the following scanner (create-scanner "(\d|x)\("), but it fails because "open paren has no matching close paren". How can I match parens in ppcre then? 05:16:50 thunk`` [n=user@74-130-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 05:17:26 -!- thunk` [n=user@74-130-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:17:59 <_3b> freiksenet: if you want a #\\ character in the string, you need to escape it, so "(\\d|x)\\(" 05:18:10 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:18:31 so I need to double escape in ppcre? 05:18:37 thunk [n=user@74.130.81.112] has joined #lisp 05:18:38 ok, thanks 05:18:51 joevandyk: for loading some file into top-level? 05:19:06 guaqua: not sure what you mean by top-level. 05:19:20 top-level is the repl you are using 05:19:49 you should rather see this: http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 05:19:58 guaqua: yeah. essentially i have other lisp files in the same directory as the file that i'm running 05:20:27 this might be useful, too: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Compilation.html 05:20:44 clhs load 05:20:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_load.htm 05:21:20 the last one might be closest to what you are thinking of 05:22:25 why does M-x slime sometimes start in the same window and sometimes in another window? 05:22:44 that's odd, never had that happen 05:22:58 it's a huge pain 05:23:26 [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.95.54.35] has joined #lisp 05:23:32 it seemed to have stopped for a week, and it just now switched to running slime in another window. 05:24:06 <_3b> for a while it would open in what ever window had focus when it finished loading... thought that stopped a long time ago though 05:24:12 also when I do ,restart it restarts Slime in the other window, so basically slime seems hellbent on destroying my emacs window layouts right now. 05:24:24 maybe I need to update my slime 05:28:20 -!- antgreen [n=user@bas2-toronto06-1176110131.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:28:44 antgreen [n=user@bas2-toronto06-1176110131.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 05:28:55 Argh! Mailman day again! 05:29:36 :) 05:29:43 reminds me to pay the rent ;) 05:32:39 damnit now my slime connection dies every time I connect 05:33:46 guaqua: but how would i load files into the top level? i want to load a file that's in the same path as the main file i'm loading 05:34:09 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@93-173-10-240.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:34:15 -!- Guest33628 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 05:34:26 joevandyk: if you really have a project, look at the xach.livejournal.com url 05:34:47 guaqua: i don't, i'm just trying to include one file 05:35:33 just (load #P"path-here") 05:35:40 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 05:35:49 guaqua: but don't i have to know the complete path to the file? 05:35:50 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 05:36:07 you can use a relative one. depends on where you started your lisp 05:36:14 or a full path 05:36:40 guaqua: my lisp is in a different directory. I'm loading a file, and want to automatically load another file that's in the same directory. 05:36:52 thunk` [n=user@74-130-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 05:37:03 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:37:04 thunk``` [n=user@74-130-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 05:37:08 sounds like you have something like a project :) 05:37:18 guaqua: so i can just do: "clisp /path/to/file.lisp" 05:37:21 -!- thunk` [n=user@74-130-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has left #lisp 05:37:33 ahh, so you want to run it? 05:37:35 guaqua: and it would include /path/to/other_file.lisp 05:37:39 -!- thunk``` [n=user@74-130-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has left #lisp 05:37:52 try using the load-function 05:39:21 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 05:40:14 -!- silas428 [n=ryan@c-67-182-187-129.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 05:41:11 guaqua: can you give an example? google fails me 05:41:40 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:41:45 htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.227.241] has joined #lisp 05:41:57 (load #P"file") 05:42:43 -!- thunk [n=user@74.130.81.112] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:42:59 guaqua: "*** - LOAD: A file with name check-equal.lisp does not exist" 05:43:13 guaqua: happens when i run: clisp work/exercises/4.lisp 05:43:44 you'd need some more magic to determine the path used for the original file loaded 05:43:56 and prepend it to the filename 05:44:16 guaqua: yes, that's what i'm asking for. :D 05:44:17 it uses your current working directory as the base for that path 05:44:38 that's an implementation-specific thing 05:44:52 clisp manual should have something like shell-scripting part 05:46:15 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 05:46:51 -!- [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.95.54.35] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:47:23 -!- merus [n=merus@c-67-175-45-120.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:47:41 guaqua: ugh, their website is terrible 05:47:47 i have no idea where to start looking 05:48:45 can't find it either :( 05:49:27 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 05:50:48 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:35 -!- thunk`` [n=user@74-130-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:51:38 guaqua: so if *load-pathname* refers to the file being loaded, how can i get the directory that it's in?\ 05:52:22 so, I have a custom class, and I specialized print-object for it using "print-unreadable-object". Now I have it outputed as #. How can I make it output only "my formatted string"? 05:53:20 <_3b> don't use print-unreadable-object if you don't want the #< > stuff 05:53:39 <_3b> pass :type nil if you just want to get rid of TYPENAME 05:53:45 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@76.122.37.30] has joined #lisp 05:54:02 evening 05:54:25 ah. I just got confused by Practical Common Lisp a bit %) thanks a lot 05:57:14 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [] 05:58:01 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 05:58:42 joevandyk: directory-namestring 05:58:52 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-114.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:01:55 aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has joined #lisp 06:02:05 merus [n=merus@c-67-175-45-120.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:02:56 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-54-56.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 06:07:37 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:08:26 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 06:09:50 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:09:59 hello 06:11:41 tscmga [n=tscmga@121.76.245.61] has joined #lisp 06:12:08 -!- KingThomasV [n=KingThom@76.122.37.30] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:12:42 -!- tscmga [n=tscmga@121.76.245.61] has left #lisp 06:12:55 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.144] has joined #lisp 06:13:13 Adlai`` [n=adlai@93-173-135-38.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 06:14:21 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:15:10 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 06:15:19 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:18:19 i want to print stuff that looks like x^b. I want it to be just x if b = 1, and x^b otherwise. if is possible to specify format conditional to do this? 06:18:33 I have very primitive thing like this now ~[~;~:;^~a~] 06:18:44 but it doesnot work 06:20:10 -!- merus [n=merus@c-67-175-45-120.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:23:25 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:25:50 htk__ [n=htk___@188.3.224.156] has joined #lisp 06:27:31 <_3b> freiksenet: "~v[^~:*~a~;~;^~:*~a~]" ? 06:27:52 huangjs [n=user@p2162-ipbf6607marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:27:57 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.227.241] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:28:02 -!- huangjs [n=user@p2162-ipbf6607marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:28:32 <_3b> actually, i guess that v isn't needed 06:28:44 huangjs [n=user@p2162-ipbf6607marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:29:18 <_3b> and the last ~; should be ~:; 06:29:29 *_3b* doesn't test very well apparently 06:29:44 HG` [n=HG@85.8.89.202] has joined #lisp 06:29:54 I got to "~:[~;^~a~]" 06:30:06 and I have additional argument that tests if exponent is 1 06:31:40 and full string "~a~a~:[^~a~;~]" 06:31:45 <_3b> yeah, testing explicitly is probably more readable 06:32:04 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:32:48 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:33:00 thanks anyway :) format is one of the features of common lisp that I love in comparison to python 06:33:18 -!- ejs [n=eugen@163-47-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:33:22 Isn't Python a subset of format? 06:33:38 heh 06:35:28 lol :) well built in string.format kinda sucks. 06:36:11 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:37:00 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 06:42:39 plan9 [n=stian@arachnotron.sletner.com] has joined #lisp 06:43:05 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 06:43:20 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:43:50 good morning 06:44:12 morning 06:44:17 nostoi [n=nostoi@74.Red-79-157-250.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:45:54 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:46:42 -!- GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:48:46 I use clbuild to install additional systems to sbcl. But this way I have to do (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op 'name-of-system) each time I run my package that uses some third-party modules. Is it somehow possible to automate lisp to autoload all packages installed by cl-build? 06:49:51 <_3b> you could, but probably wouldn't want to... better to just specify dependencies for your project 06:50:03 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 06:50:06 <_3b> and let asdf load them automatically when you load your project 06:50:11 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:50:28 well I have (:use :cl-ppcre) for example in package definition 06:50:44 <_3b> right, that is package though, not systems 06:51:07 <_3b> you need a .asd file for your project that :depends-on "cl-ppcre" 06:51:25 do I need to make package definition then? 06:51:37 <_3b> you need a system definition 06:52:05 <_3b> which is what goes in a .asd file 06:53:10 <_3b> minion: tell freiksenet about xach-asdf 06:53:10 freiksenet: look at xach-asdf: Xach's article "Making a small Common Lisp project" can be found at http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 06:53:18 thanks 06:53:21 <_3b> ^^ that covers a bit about setting it up 06:53:34 this is just a bit too complex :) 06:54:01 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@74.Red-79-157-250.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 06:55:30 mm, just one question, do I need to write defpackage in everyfile then or just in asd? 06:55:48 <_3b> you write defsystem in .asd 06:56:18 and that's it? 06:56:20 <_3b> you write 1 defpackage per package you want to define, it is common to put those in a file names package.lisp 06:56:34 okay, cool. thanks a lot 06:56:52 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 06:57:07 <_3b> packages are just a mapping from names to symbols, and are unrelated to source organization in CL 06:57:08 last question - what is a good guideline for package naming? 06:57:18 and system 06:57:35 Practical Common Lisp uses a bit Java like structure IMHO 06:57:47 <_3b> some people do that, most don't bother from what i've seen 07:00:50 rsynnott_ [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 07:00:51 so, are there are practically no naming guidelines? 07:02:04 <_3b> not really 07:02:10 freiksenet: as long as there is no overlap, it is ok, no? 07:02:45 <_3b> just avoid taking cl-foo unless you are absolutely sure you will have the best library for FOO (and some would say don't even use it then) 07:03:49 <_3b> http://common-lisp.net/projects.shtml lists a bunch of project names if you want to see common usage 07:04:24 <_3b> many have source browseable, so you c ould see how they organize source/packages as well 07:05:06 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-170-201-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:06:38 ok. I am using COMPANYNAME-SYSTEMNAME is it okay? 07:06:54 <_3b> yeah, that isn't too uncommon either 07:07:06 *_3b* uses 3b-foo if i can't think of anything better 07:07:07 thanks a lot :) 07:08:07 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:10:51 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-191-200.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:00 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-191-200.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:12:05 prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:38 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:16:22 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 07:16:35 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:18:30 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:19:11 -!- gko [n=gko@114-137-62-101.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:19:34 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Success] 07:19:54 -!- gko` [n=gko@114-137-62-101.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:20:10 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 07:21:40 Grey_Fox [n=chatzill@ppp121-44-201-249.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:25:11 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:26:45 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:27:38 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 07:28:10 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 07:29:02 okay, I finished this small stepsolver I was doing for several days now. It is my first independent project with common lisp %) I wonder if you guys can look through code and criticize it from common lisp point of view, like what I should have done differenly %) Thanks a lot beforehand. 07:29:05 http://paste.lisp.org/display/86351 07:30:10 <_3b> clhs check-type 07:30:11 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_check_.htm 07:30:22 joevandyk: (load (make-pathname :name "other-file" :case :local :defaults (or *load-pathname* *default-pathname-defaults*) )) 07:30:41 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-191-200.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:30:59 <_3b> check-type might be nicer than checking numberp and calling error by hand 07:31:29 for constructor? 07:32:02 what is a "place"? 07:32:20 <_3b> a generalization of variable 07:32:28 freiksenet: subseq on strings (vector) is costly. You should rather abstract away (eg. in an object), a string with a cursor, where advancing the cursor would be O(1). 07:32:37 <_3b> for example (aref foo 1) is a place 07:33:05 <_3b> or modifier and exponent in your example are places 07:33:44 so not ((not (numberp modifier)) but (check-type modifier number)? 07:34:17 <_3b> (check-type modifier (or null number)) would match your current code better, but yes 07:34:27 <_3b> depends on whether NIL is valid or not 07:34:56 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:34:58 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 07:35:31 <_3b> CHECK-TYPE would give the benefit of letting you specify a new value to replace an invalid one 07:36:13 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:36:36 freiksenet: otherwise, I wonder if it wouldn't be simplier to represent terms as (expt 'x 2) instead of symbol-variable object. So you would just have one more operator (plus, mult, expt, etc) and you could probably implement more homogeneous simplification algorithms. 07:37:06 <_3b> ( and ) by themselves are generally frowned upon, so (let* (( ... instead of (let* (\n ( .... 07:37:59 <_3b> use WHEN or UNLESS instead of IF forms with only 1 branch 07:38:28 <_3b> also, use spaces instead of tabs, so indentation doesn't get broken when you paste it :) 07:38:40 pjb, could you elaborate what you mean by abstacting away a string? 07:39:21 and regarding symbol-variable - I have it cause initial plan was to support multivariable expressions 07:40:04 Cassio [i=Cassio@151.61.94.223] has joined #lisp 07:40:21 (defclass scannable-text () ((text :initarg :text :reader text :type string) (cursor :initarg :cursor :initform 0 :accessor cursor :type integer))) 07:40:23 mm, can I configure emacs to do this? 07:41:00 at least vim used to expand tabs as spaces 07:41:15 <_3b> M-x customize-variable RET indent-tabs-mode RET 07:41:16 pjb, thanks 07:41:16 (defmethod get-next-char ((self scannable-text)) (aref (text self) (cursor self))) (defmethod advance ((self scannable-text)) (incf (cursor self)) (aref (text self) (cursor self))) 07:41:23 <_3b> (or set it by hand if you prefer) 07:42:04 freiksenet: notice that with such an abstraction, you could define a class that would take the character from a file instead of a string. 07:42:48 s/get-next-char/get-current-char/ 07:43:00 *_3b* would probably wrap some of those longer lines too 07:43:30 manuel [n=manuel@pD9E6FA4E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:15 when and unless are just if with no else? 07:44:34 <_3b> unless is more IF with no then, but yes 07:44:53 <_3b> also with an implicit progn, but that probably doesn't matter here 07:46:16 ok, thanks a lot :) I will go to have lunch soon then I will correct all this stuff. 07:46:21 cya 07:46:42 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:48:08 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:48:42 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 07:48:52 -!- htk__ [n=htk___@188.3.224.156] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 07:53:48 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:55:00 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.1.127] has joined #lisp 07:55:06 hmmm 07:55:27 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 07:55:55 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest31558 07:56:46 fiveop [n=fiveop@92.229.174.113] has joined #lisp 07:58:25 spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 07:58:31 Good morning everyone. 07:58:48 hello spiaggia 07:58:55 happy mailman day 07:59:19 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:00:10 luis: Thanks (I suppose)! 08:00:22 htk__ [n=htk___@188.3.224.156] has joined #lisp 08:01:58 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 08:03:17 -!- Guest31558 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 08:04:09 vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 08:06:36 moin, spiaggia. 08:07:07 mvillene1ve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:07:19 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 08:07:29 -!- mvillene1ve is now known as mvilleneuve 08:07:34 -!- Grey_Fox [n=chatzill@ppp121-44-201-249.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:08:54 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:09:21 vy [n=user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has joined #lisp 08:09:32 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:09:36 Grey_Fox [n=chatzill@ppp121-44-201-249.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:10:09 aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host59-46-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:10:56 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-4ae470d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:11:00 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 08:12:34 -!- htk__ [n=htk___@188.3.224.156] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:13:21 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:15:54 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.144] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:16:06 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.144] has joined #lisp 08:16:17 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@131.173.18.185] has joined #lisp 08:19:32 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:20:14 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:20:49 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 08:21:48 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 08:21:53 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@wavelan-96.vlan-109.publik.su.se] has joined #lisp 08:23:06 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:23:53 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1C273.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:35 -!- Adlai`` is now known as Adlai 08:28:29 Draggor1 [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 08:28:57 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:30:57 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-244-45.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:01 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-27-181.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 08:33:02 -!- Cassio [i=Cassio@151.61.94.223] has quit [] 08:34:22 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1F40B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:34:22 -!- segv_ is now known as segv 08:34:42 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:37:22 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 08:38:57 freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 08:40:26 Adlai pasted "indent-tabs-mode" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86352 08:40:41 minion: memo for freiksenet: If you have a file that uses no tabs, it's probably a good idea to put a line at the top informing Emacs to turn off indent-tabs mode. See http://paste.lisp.org/display/86352 08:40:41 Remembered. I'll tell freiksenet when he/she/it next speaks. 08:43:36 adlai - I'd rather have all tabs as spaces everywhere, I like this more. 08:43:36 freiksenet, memo from Adlai: If you have a file that uses no tabs, it's probably a good idea to put a line at the top informing Emacs to turn off indent-tabs mode. See http://paste.lisp.org/display/86352 08:48:07 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:48:22 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:48:33 arbscht [n=arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 08:48:57 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-29-33.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:52:42 freiksenet: I know, I also like that. Check out that paste. It tells any emacs that opens your file to only put spaces in the file -- really helpful for working with other people. 08:52:45 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:52:46 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-201.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:53:28 "turn off indent-tabs-mode" = no tabs 08:54:49 I added this line to .emacs - (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil) 08:54:58 this seems to work 08:55:01 ignas_ [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 08:55:10 yes, I know, but it's not gonna work if somebody else opens the same file. 08:55:41 putting that line at the top of the file tells ANY emacs instance to set indent-tabs-mode to nil for that buffer. 08:56:42 again -- this is helpful for sharing the file with others, because it makes clear that you don't want patches sent back to you that include tabs. Since virtually all lispers use Emacs, that line will save you a lot of trouble. 08:57:26 mikezor [n=mikael@c-4ae470d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:58:24 ok, thanks 08:58:43 pemryan [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 08:59:27 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.19.211] has joined #lisp 08:59:37 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.19.211] has left #lisp 08:59:58 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 09:01:14 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:01:31 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 09:02:40 freiksenet: np. 09:03:44 also, I think that running `M-x untabify' in a buffer will convert tabs to spaces, if you somehow end up with a tabby file 09:04:18 yeah, I found this command already :) 09:04:18 who maintains clsql nowadays and why is 4.0.4's db-sqlite3 broken? :-/ 09:05:42 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:08:18 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.128.150.73] has joined #lisp 09:09:23 -!- huangjs [n=user@p2162-ipbf6607marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:11:11 vu3rdd [n=user@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 09:14:37 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.144] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:14:50 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.144] has joined #lisp 09:16:03 lharc [n=shrek@88.131.67.194] has joined #lisp 09:16:27 fusss: kevin m. rosenberg 09:16:58 Xach: kmr has been MIA for a bit now, iirc 09:17:15 rdd [n=user@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:19:18 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@93-173-135-38.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:19:20 fusss: you remember incorrectly. he just put out 4.1.0 09:19:34 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:19:37 perfect! 09:19:37 last night. 09:19:42 :-D 09:19:50 fetching it now 09:20:07 Xach: how are you on top of things? you subscribe to the mailinglist? 09:21:03 yes 09:23:04 -!- knob [n=anon@66.50.222.67] has quit [] 09:23:12 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 09:23:19 someone should tell attila as well, he was looking for kmr wrt another project 09:26:46 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has left #lisp 09:27:11 -!- seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:29:05 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:29:39 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:29:42 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 09:29:50 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:37:22 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 09:42:34 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.128.150.73] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:44:51 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:45:34 -!- pemryan [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:46:18 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:48:38 -!- vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:49:04 hmmm the package system works in mysterious ways. 09:49:10 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:50:04 I was expecting a symbol conflict the moment I recompiled. Didn't get one... then realized that the package system had silently let me redefine macros imported from another package. 09:50:06 *Adlai* shudders 09:50:38 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-2-74.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:51:05 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@wavelan-96.vlan-109.publik.su.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:51:43 *Adlai* shadows the symbol, and all is well in the jungle again. 09:52:11 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 09:52:37 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:52:42 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@wavelan-96.vlan-109.publik.su.se] has joined #lisp 09:53:54 vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 09:53:58 lnostdal-bib [i=9f82422b@gateway/web/freenode/x-ujzuejmmswkvaldj] has joined #lisp 09:54:54 htk__ [n=htk___@188.3.224.156] has joined #lisp 09:56:42 arbscht [n=arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 09:58:16 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:58:31 the package system doesn't have much to do with definitions 09:59:17 knobo [n=user@193.217.20.38] has joined #lisp 09:59:47 this parenscript package has gotten some things seriously wrong. 10:00:20 no shit 10:00:21 -!- tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:00:23 Are there any other similar packages that does things "the right way"? 10:00:48 not to my knowlege 10:01:12 knobo: what's the wrong and right way? 10:01:38 (ps:ps (let ((foo 'bar)) (print foo))) -> "var foo = 'bar'; print(foo);" 10:01:43 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 10:02:02 and not (function (foo) (print foo)) (bar)) 10:02:03 -!- htk__ [n=htk___@188.3.224.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:02:12 sorry, that was not javascript 10:02:31 and not function (foo) {print foo);} (bar); 10:02:32 htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.224.156] has joined #lisp 10:04:04 Xach: what do you think. Rignt or wrong? 10:04:57 knobo: I don't understand which is which. 10:04:58 I just write the javascipt bit in javascript. It almost invariantly runs on the client anyhow. 10:05:13 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 10:05:45 ok, sorry. what parenscript does today, is to transform let into javascrips var, for assigning variables. 10:06:17 Which does not generally work -- you need to use a function in the general case. 10:06:19 the sitepoint book "The javascript antology" is pretty good 10:06:51 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:07:10 YMMV 10:07:37 Ok, I don't know so much javascript, where wouldn't that work? 10:07:59 (foo (let ((a 10)) ...)) 10:08:28 (let ((a 10)) (let ((a 20)) ...) ...) 10:08:28 Does not javascript evaluate it's arguments? 10:08:43 Yeah, but what happens when the arguments are { ... } ? 10:09:04 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:09:07 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:09:19 As a hint -- it builds a dictionary. 10:09:21 one of the arguments are function () {} () 10:09:37 metawilm [n=willem@e179149142.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:09:51 If parenscript has been fixed to transform let into a function call then it will work, but last I looked, it didn't. 10:10:03 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 10:10:11 And that choice was listed as a feature. 10:10:27 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:11:03 >>> var knobo = function (x) { return x }; 10:11:03 >>> knobo(function (y) {return y + y} (20)); 10:11:03 40 10:11:10 woked in my browser 10:11:24 but, I don't know when the anonymous function was evaluated 10:11:45 Um, you're not listening. 10:11:50 -!- lnostdal-bib [i=9f82422b@gateway/web/freenode/x-ujzuejmmswkvaldj] has quit ["baai"] 10:12:05 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 10:12:06 As I said, if it transforms let into a function call it will work. Transforming them into vars won't. 10:12:32 apparently my understanding of packages is incomplete: consider (assoc 'userprincipalname (ldap:atts search-result)) 10:12:47 Zhivago: aha. you were agreeing with me :), not saying that function would not work 10:12:48 it works when i am in my defined package 10:13:07 and doesn't when i am in cl-user 10:13:18 well, that is a confusing description 10:13:38 your-package:userprincipalname is presumably different from cl-user:userprincipalname 10:13:43 Ah, they've added a lexical-let 10:14:08 But, I did not get the part about dictionary. 10:14:55 knobo: foo({ var v1; var v2; ... }) 10:15:14 That will be interpreted as a malformed dictionary literal. 10:16:16 sigh! javascript and firefox with firebug seems easier 10:16:16 Anyhow, parenscript seems to have matured, which is nice. 10:16:38 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:18:07 Anyhow that's what I am using in the Axiom interface. 10:18:08 it seems that the symbols that ldap:attrs uses for the alist are interned in the current package at evalulation time. 10:18:51 How am I to know in what the current package is when calling my function? 10:19:27 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 10:20:56 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@131.173.18.185] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:21:51 robewald: *package* holds the current package 10:22:33 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 10:22:42 yes i tried (intern "USERPRINCIPALNAME" *package*) now. But doesn't work. How do I print the fully qualified name of a symbol? 10:23:07 robewald: (let ((*package* (find-package :keyword)))) (format t "~S" symbol)) 10:23:47 robewald: this behavior seems hilariously broken. best to patch the ldap system to be less brain-damaged (: 10:24:43 still waiting for crome and it's JIT javascript compiler for linux 10:24:55 (the let has unbalanced parens, sorry for that; intention should be clear though (-:) 10:24:59 then maybe we can make it les painfully slow. 10:24:59 yes, looks like that to me... I have quite a bit less hair now :) 10:25:06 v8's ported. :) 10:25:09 It runs well. 10:25:13 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:25:16 I've been using chrome as my main browser on linux for a couple of months 10:25:51 MathML manipulation in real time in the Axiom client interface is quite demanding. 10:25:53 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:27:59 jsnell, realy? 10:28:22 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@wavelan-96.vlan-109.publik.su.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:29:01 The last time I checked It only ran windows. I did set mysef on a list so I would be informed whe a linux version was availabe, but have hard nothing. 10:30:21 http://dev.chromium.org/developers/how-tos/build-instructions-linux 10:31:43 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.128.148.99] has joined #lisp 10:31:46 Ok, Ill get on with it! later.. 10:33:37 huangjs [n=user@p2162-ipbf6607marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:38:35 drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-42.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:41:30 jsnell: proper company man? 10:42:16 *Xof* has modified fd-streams and all tests continue to pass 10:47:20 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-16-225.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:47:53 krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-107-174.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:47:53 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:48:07 iwaki [n=hide@PPPa272.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:48:46 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:50:35 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 10:50:50 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:52:39 Yuuhi`` [i=benni@p5483E035.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:07 joswig [n=joswig@e177127254.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:53:52 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-114.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:55:13 PartyBoi2 [n=PartyBoi@unaffiliated/partyboi] has joined #lisp 10:55:18 Hi, Xof. I've read your 20 Aug 2009 blog several times. Do I understand correctly that you are working to improve unicode support in sbcl? 10:55:58 yes 10:56:01 very, very slowly 10:56:15 weirdo [n=sthalik@c130-157.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:57:09 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:57:25 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:57:27 dalton [n=user5442@187.34.44.13] has joined #lisp 10:57:54 why? 10:58:32 -!- PartyBoi2 [n=PartyBoi@unaffiliated/partyboi] has quit [Client Quit] 10:58:39 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483DD58.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:58:40 Xorf, Any progress on the string comparison functions? 11:00:06 no 11:00:06 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 11:01:26 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [] 11:01:31 -!- aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has quit ["KVIrc 3.2.6 Anomalies http://www.kvirc.net/"] 11:03:02 Is there any consensus on how the character comparison functions should work? Or should there be a separate (semi-standard?) unicode:... namespace for anything that does something other than the most naive, ASCII-ish comparison? 11:03:06 -!- vu3rdd [n=user@164.164.250.10] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:03:22 (This is not an exhaustive partition of the answer-space...) 11:03:34 well that's the problem. 11:04:13 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-31-91.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:04:40 -!- knobo [n=user@193.217.20.38] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:04:41 Xof, most of my work now involves unicode strings. So, I wondering if I going to be running into roadblocks with sbcl --- trying to do something that is not yet possible. 11:05:02 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 11:05:09 lat: OK, doing what with Unicode strings? 11:05:26 (I warmly encourage you to contribute functionality that you need; it'll be faster than waiting for me to get round to it) 11:05:41 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 11:08:02 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177158075.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:08:44 Xof, I'm writing software to make interlinear editions of various texts, for example Greek and English. 11:09:01 Xof: no company loyalty needed, even the rough alpha versions from a couple of months ago were so much nicer than firefox 11:09:19 (or maybe I'm just paid to say that...) 11:09:38 yeah. Also as a good company man you're probably not allowed to turn adverts off... 11:10:26 so, who knows where all the bodies are buried in fd-streams? 11:10:58 *fusss* has a new lisp web app "pattern"; decouple view rendering code from databases accessing code. if your view if wrapped in a massive (let ((record (get-record :user-id (current-user-id))) ...) or similar straightforward shite, you're in for pain 11:11:02 I have a proof-of-concept patch that gives actually useful restarts on encoding errors; I would welcome knowing how much I've broken in the process 11:11:16 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:11:22 Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:11:51 -!- krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-107-174.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:11:55 KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:40 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:14:56 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:16:29 Cassio [i=Cassio@151.61.94.223] has joined #lisp 11:17:15 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:18:26 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 11:19:05 htk__ [n=htk___@188.3.228.178] has joined #lisp 11:19:20 How can I sort a list of unicode strings by code-point? 11:22:37 tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:23:42 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.224.156] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:24:33 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@92.82.44.216] has joined #lisp 11:24:54 hello 11:25:48 hey fe[nl]ix 11:25:58 hi fusss 11:26:21 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:26:27 The crome source is a nightmare to set up! 11:27:06 Hi fe[nl]ix 11:27:09 KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 11:27:12 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:27:33 hi lat 11:27:46 -!- antgreen [n=user@bas2-toronto06-1176110131.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:28:20 lat: by code point? (sort list #'string<) 11:28:32 that's just about the only thing that's easy 11:29:08 -!- Grey_Fox [n=chatzill@ppp121-44-201-249.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:29:14 -!- laynor [n=laynor@93.107.81.241] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:29:38 hello again. I need to match string ' """ ' in emacs lisp. I wrote "\\"\\"\\"", but this messes up emacs font-lock, it thinks everything after this is under ". 11:29:47 antgreen [n=user@bas2-toronto06-1176110131.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 11:29:49 so is this a correct regex? 11:30:40 you probably want to ask #emacs for emacs-specific questions 11:30:41 don't you only need one \ 11:30:57 "\"\"\"" 11:32:14 laynor [n=laynor@93.107.74.222] has joined #lisp 11:32:59 thread-a goes to debugger in FAST-METHOD NO-APPLICABLE-METHOD, while thread-b is redefining the class (but no changes).. 11:33:10 hm, so when do you actually need two and when you need one slash? 11:33:15 -!- antgreen [n=user@bas2-toronto06-1176110131.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:33:34 freiksenet: the rules are documented in the elisp manual, if I'm not mistaken 11:33:38 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 11:33:42 two when you want a \ in the re string 11:33:49 note that theyre different for common lisp 11:33:54 it is like the class has no slots, is there some race going on? 11:33:54 one if you want the char following it? 11:33:58 -!- vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:34:30 Xof, great. I usually attempt the hard things first. It is good to know at least one thing is easy. Finding a substring within a string shouldn't be any problem either, right? 11:34:34 dysinger [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 11:34:40 thanks 11:35:15 lat: assuming that your strings are normalized, right 11:35:37 if you have different ways in your strings of expressing "the same" character, then you lose. Otherwise SEARCH will do what you want 11:36:19 lharc: yes, in that redefinition of a class implies reinitialization of the class metaobject 11:36:32 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 11:36:42 so hunchentoot has a race condition accessing the log files and it just drops in a debugger restart instead of .. not worrying about which thread writes to the log first? 11:36:49 which will make instances obsolete at points where they might not be expected to be 11:37:19 Xof, by different ways you mean, for example, different accent marks? 11:37:59 no, I mean for instance representing e-acute as either the codepoint corresponding to e-acute, or the codepoints e + combining diacritical mark acute 11:38:11 Xof: is there some lock sbcl should hold but doesnt? 11:38:30 only if you want to take a lock on the whole of CLOS every time you do a generic function call 11:40:36 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-16-225.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #lisp 11:40:41 Xof: cant we stop the world when evaluating defclass or something like that? 11:40:46 splittist` [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 11:40:57 -!- splittist` [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 11:41:18 lharc: that doesn't actually help: a thread can be in the middle of executing some non-atomic operation on one of its instances 11:42:07 antgreen [n=user@bas2-toronto06-1176110131.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 11:42:27 in some sense, the error you got is correct: for a period, there was no applicable method. redefining classes is not an atomic operation, and neither is method dispatch 11:42:35 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:43:28 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:43:44 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 11:44:25 Xof, so I could do 11:44:32 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:45:36 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:46:23 Xof, so I could normalize the strings by doing find and replace on the source data, if I understand you correctly. 11:46:24 gaaah 11:47:01 lat: well, it's more complicated than that 11:47:11 Unicode defines various normalization forms, with slightly different properties 11:47:35 I would suggest that the first thing you should do is to find out whether your strings are already in some normalization form (by definition) 11:47:53 hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 11:48:08 note to self, never under any circumstances have clos class that map to database table have a #\_ or a #\- in their name, however "good" your name conversion and escaping routines are. not just fucking worth it. 11:49:28 Grey_Fox [n=chatzill@ppp121-44-200-56.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:00 elegance and code clarity have lost, but peace of mind has been WON 11:50:49 we're taking web apps back to 1998; some good ole, tangible and well understood cgi script execution models 11:53:19 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:54:41 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 11:55:12 Xof: I thought there were two classes during redefinition, old and new, and instances would be migrated over. 11:56:17 nite folks! 11:56:24 fusss: for some reason, it seems to me that good, old CGI is still popular in some countries :D 11:56:30 fusss: night 11:56:56 Ok, crome is up and running 11:57:13 with a bit of help from a google AI 11:57:39 facinating.. 11:57:40 p_l: cgi with a tweak 11:57:48 put sessions in a db 11:58:13 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.1"] 11:58:26 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 11:58:33 *splittist* now 23.1ified 11:59:14 fusss: maybe. Japan seems to love CGI 11:59:25 Xof, Is this going to explain to me the normalization you are talking about: http://unicode.org/reports/tr15/ 11:59:37 at least those few websites that I happened to see 12:00:39 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:02:24 If you need to display text with OpenGL using cl-glfw, what's the best way? 12:04:13 depends on what kind of text and your needs. 12:04:39 i managed to get the shitty opengl-text functions working with glfw and ccl. 12:04:52 -!- manuel [n=manuel@pD9E6FA4E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 12:05:32 if you need cool aliased fonts and so forth, you either have to write a lib for it, or start FFI-ing your way again to a prepacked solution. 12:06:54 lat: yes 12:07:48 hypno: Thanks! 12:08:56 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:09:27 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:25 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 12:11:38 Xof, ok, great. Thanks for your help. I'll do some reading, and check the source data. I'll follow your unicode work with interest---thanks in advance! 12:15:03 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:16:11 Liam1 [n=healy@129-2-175-69.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:16:14 nice, my user-mode code segfaults Lispworks and SBCL, win32 and linux 12:18:20 CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.45.40] has joined #lisp 12:19:42 fusss: hmm, interresting (and scary). what are you doing? 12:20:02 *Xach* guesses: lying to the compiler 12:20:36 *hypno* adds with (safety 0), presumably 12:20:57 your run of the mill web app 12:21:16 which just so happens to use clsql, which in turn uses FFI to native mysql libraries 12:21:36 i can get the exception inside a SELECT statement; nothing sophisticated there 12:21:47 fucking ffi's. 12:21:51 aha 12:21:57 *Xach* switched to pg.lisp because of that issue 12:23:49 *est* uses PG too 12:24:25 No FFI helps 12:24:42 done for the nite 12:24:46 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.1.127] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.2/20090729225027]"] 12:28:48 tunes.org seems down? :/ 12:31:00 Other question: I see that XLoadQueryFont doesn't seem to have any corresponding function in CLX. How hard would it be to add it? 12:31:20 hypno: no, I can access it. 12:32:08 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:33:18 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:33:29 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:33:38 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:34:32 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 12:34:48 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:35:22 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:35:27 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.45.40] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:36:19 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:36:28 nvntung [n=user@laptop-147-210-128-103.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 12:36:48 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 12:36:57 hello nvntung, welcome to #lisp! 12:41:09 one of your students? 12:41:20 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:41:48 tic: Yes, right her in my office. You might want to give him some hints about how to use IRC effectively. 12:42:41 Don't ask to ask; search the HyperSpec; be polite; try to avoid being off-topi? 12:43:06 also, counter "speech impediment" jokes with "your mom" jokes. 12:43:17 hi, nvntung (-: 12:43:18 http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_bc5DyU0dP5k/Re448etoJfI/AAAAAAAAAAo/ugKJ9Lb6QsU/s320/lisp1.jpg is the worst cartoon i have ever seen in my life 12:43:19 tic: I was thinking more about how to make a nick an alias of another nick, how to register a nick, etc., but he'll figure it out. 12:43:25 And don't announce what changes need to be made to lisp/ASDF/the community to make lisp win/take over the world/not suck until you've been online for at least 10 years... 12:43:43 Xach: wow, that is really awful 12:43:58 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:44:29 Xach: what's the context of that? 12:44:41 (did they use a _typewriter_ to do the captions?) 12:44:42 rsynnott_: scanning twitter #lisp 12:46:54 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 12:47:04 minion: tell nvntung about lisppaste 12:47:05 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 12:47:14 max7w [n=chatzill@dynamic-vpdn-mogilev-91-149-185-180.telecom.by] has joined #lisp 12:48:11 -!- antgreen [n=user@bas2-toronto06-1176110131.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:48:18 ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 12:48:37 Xach: so http://twitter.com/vsagarv/status/3663690245 then, huh 12:48:40 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:48:41 yeah 12:49:14 nothing like xkcd... 12:49:19 (referencing the "what's your favorite programming cartoon" thread on stackoverflow) 12:49:35 it's sad enough that the guy posted one of his own... 12:50:04 yo dawg I heard you liked etc. 12:51:07 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has left #lisp 12:52:16 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:47 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:56:13 Xach: o_O 12:56:33 -!- Draggor1 is now known as Draggor 12:56:47 nvntung: we do talk about lisp sometimes (: And using google to search the logs (and lisppaste) can be illuminating. 12:57:15 minion: logs 12:57:16 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 12:57:57 splittist: nvntung just left, but I showed him your message. Thanks! 12:58:48 dysinger_ [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:03 spiaggia: I think it's (when (list-font-names font-name) (open-font font-name)) 13:01:15 (XLoadQueryFont, that is) 13:02:34 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A233F.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:03:07 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:10 Xof: Oh, thanks! I looked for a reference to a protocol request, but I admit I didn't spend very long on it. 13:03:49 Today someone of the kanamit-guys here? 13:05:08 -!- max7w [n=chatzill@dynamic-vpdn-mogilev-91-149-185-180.telecom.by] has left #lisp 13:05:46 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.144] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:05:58 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.144] has joined #lisp 13:07:31 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:07:31 -!- dysinger_ is now known as dysinger 13:07:56 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:08:39 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:08:49 benny [n=benny@i577A2B48.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:12:23 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.144] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:12:27 -!- nvntung [n=user@laptop-147-210-128-103.labri.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:12:35 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.144] has joined #lisp 13:12:55 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:14:20 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:14:27 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 13:18:11 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:18:33 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:32 letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has joined #lisp 13:21:33 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.128.148.99] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:25:27 -!- Liam1 [n=healy@129-2-175-69.wireless.umd.edu] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:26:57 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:27:51 hello #lisp 13:28:17 dysinger_ [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:34 -!- zenbalrog [n=johnnyc@adsl-75-5-181-47.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:30:21 -!- dysinger_ [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:30:25 hello schme 13:30:39 Hey p_l (: 13:34:44 -!- Grey_Fox [n=chatzill@ppp121-44-200-56.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:34:53 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:35:27 Grey_Fox [n=chatzill@ppp118-208-150-21.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:29 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:41:17 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #lisp 13:44:45 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:45:36 -!- letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has left #lisp 13:46:33 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 13:47:50 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 13:48:31 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read 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[n=chatzill@ppp118-208-148-207.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:33 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:13:45 -!- ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:14:01 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1C273.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 14:14:10 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 14:14:28 milanj [n=milan@79.101.79.58] has joined #lisp 14:18:09 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 14:22:41 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:23:05 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:25:28 -!- morganb [n=user@wsip-98-188-196-29.ga.at.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:26:22 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 14:27:08 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:28:38 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:28:49 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 14:33:27 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:33:35 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:33:52 spiaggia: have your teaching allocations for the year been assigned? 14:34:24 ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 14:34:25 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 14:34:28 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 14:34:41 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:35:05 sepult [n=user@87.78.169.126] has joined #lisp 14:35:42 anyone managed to compile scigraph? 14:36:35 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:38:11 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:38:25 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.144] has quit ["off"] 14:38:54 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:39:30 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:39:39 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 14:39:57 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:42:12 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:42:19 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 14:42:34 bah, i hate the kind of programming erros where you think the bug's in your code but it's actually in your head (i.e. the code was doing exactly what it was supposed to) 14:44:04 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:44:43 'do what I mean, not what I say.' 14:44:44 Xof: Pretty much, yes. 14:44:44 weirdo: Tell me when you find someone who did it :D 14:45:10 I've compiled scigraph, a while back 14:45:17 Fade: I'm actually glad it didn't :) The code was fine, it just thougth there was a bug. 14:45:21 -!- carrl [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:45:22 spiaggia: thanks 14:45:32 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:45:33 carrl [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has joined #lisp 14:45:41 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:45:48 Xof: Why do you ask? 14:46:25 spiaggia: because "finalize ELS 2010 programme committee" has popped to the top of my org-mode agenda 14:47:36 If you need for me to be a member, that will be fine, but I won't insist. 14:47:38 -!- p8m is now known as Guest42914 14:48:08 you've already agreed 14:48:10 bad luck 14:48:20 it is actually another victim that I am chasing 14:48:43 Oh, I was too quick huh? 14:48:47 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 14:49:07 It's OK, there were some very interesting papers that I might not have taken the time to read otherwise, so it's good for me. 14:50:19 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@75.138.213.210] has joined #lisp 14:50:45 is there any sort of way to do select/poll based io? FFI? 14:51:01 *spiaggia* leaves work. See you later. 14:51:06 I've googled around but I can't find anything much, 14:51:08 minion: tell ltbarcly about iolib 14:51:08 silenius [n=jl@g225131096.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:51:09 ltbarcly: please see iolib: I/O(mainly networking) library containing: a BSD sockets library, a DNS resolver and an I/O multiplexer that supports select(2), epoll(4) and kqueue(2). http://www.cliki.net/iolib 14:51:24 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-2-74.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit ["..."] 14:51:39 gko [n=gko@122.116.15.138] has joined #lisp 14:52:23 minion: perfect, thank you 14:52:24 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 14:52:42 minion: yes! 14:52:42 i understand 14:52:47 xD 14:52:51 -!- drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-42.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 14:53:05 ltbarcly: plus, your implementation probably has something already. For instance, SBCL has serve-event. 14:53:29 wow, this is far more supported than I thought 14:53:35 I wonder why I didn't find this 14:54:31 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 14:57:19 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 14:58:01 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:35 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:59 how might one always skip gpg-check when using asdf-install? 14:59:27 coliv [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has joined #lisp 15:00:53 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 15:01:58 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:02:02 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:04:06 ltbarcly: if you're going to be installing enough systems that it's an ongoing issue, use clbuild instead. 15:04:11 ltbarcly: add a wrapper that invokes the restart 15:04:17 asdf-install uses the cliki, and it's just not safe. 15:05:02 -!- htk__ [n=htk___@188.3.228.178] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:05:10 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:05:20 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:28 Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:06:13 ltbarcly: the funny thing is that "use clbuild" starts to be a quite common response to asdf-install questions 15:10:33 well, it's safer, and the results are more consistent. :) 15:10:41 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:49 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@75.138.213.210] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:10:58 Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 15:11:15 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:11:15 -!- prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:11:29 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:14:20 -!- ignas_ [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:14:54 rdd [n=user@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:16:05 GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:53 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@75-138-213-210.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:24:30 Fade: except for "cd clbuild; darcs pull" which can bring your machine down with overload ;-) 15:24:43 heh 15:26:04 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@nmd.sbx07476.centeva.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:55 felideon` [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:01 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-240-169.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:29:15 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:29:43 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:30:27 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 15:35:19 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-131.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:32 demmel [n=demmel@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:37:15 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 15:37:44 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 15:38:14 hi. Can someone confirm that in SBCL sb-impl::native-file-kind is the same as what apparently used to be called sb-unix:unix-file-kind ? 15:38:32 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 15:39:15 -!- dys` is now known as dys 15:39:21 don't use internal symbols and don't use sb-unix 15:39:36 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:40:25 also, avoid strange women and temporary variables 15:40:33 and never start a land war in asia 15:40:47 demmel: sb-posix is where the supported os-level functions are 15:40:50 so best use that 15:40:52 antifuchs: especially in jungle? 15:40:57 didn't I just send a message to sbcl-devel about that? or sbcl-help? 15:41:14 oh, look, yes I did 15:41:53 p_l: no, but never go against a sicilian when death is on the line. 15:41:53 antifuchs: I just want to fix some legacy code, that used sb-unix:unix-file-kind. 15:42:06 antifuchs: without going into the depth of how it works 15:42:09 well, the fix is to use sb-posix:stat and stuff (: 15:42:58 antifuchs: ok, i'll have a look at it 15:44:21 antifuchs: I'd add to that "never occupy Poland, unless you love insurgencies all over the place" ;-) 15:45:49 demmel: good luck! 15:45:55 occupying a country where the people are willing to attack panzer divisions on horseback is generally a bad idea. 15:46:29 Fade: that was a SNAFU caused by botched recon - neither side planned on combat 15:46:44 yeah, well, it happened. ;) 15:47:17 antifuchs: the code used sb-unix::unix-file-kind to check whether a path named a directory or not. Any chance you know a corresponding sb-posix function by heart 15:47:18 Fade: also, those horseback divisions were by that time mostly equivalent of mobile infantry 15:47:38 *nod* 15:47:59 if not for the internal combustion engine we might now have horses with rocket launchers 15:48:07 lol 15:48:27 it's almost a description of lisp. ;D 15:48:57 Fade: main problem was lack of new equipment for armored divisions and air force, infantry and navy were quite well equipped 15:49:20 I know at some point the polish airforce joined the RAF 15:49:36 and apparently distinguished themselves in the battle of britain. 15:50:21 demmel: (sb-posix:s-isdir (sb-posix:stat-mode (sb-posix:lstat "/tmp"))) 15:50:44 Fade: We had very good and determined pilots (who often had insane training). Thus, polish squadron 303 had highest kill count in battle of britain 15:51:00 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host154.190-231-49.telecom.net.ar] has quit ["leaving"] 15:51:15 Tordek [n=tordek@host154.190-231-49.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 15:51:22 p_l: who is that on topic? 15:51:25 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:51:27 s/who/how/ 15:51:46 Xof: Thanks! 15:51:51 stassats: sorry, it started somehow from "never start a land war in asia" ^^; 15:51:53 EOT 15:52:08 never start off topic in #lisp 15:52:29 stassats: that's a hard rule to follow 15:52:32 ;-) 15:52:52 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:53:23 lisp does use polish notation, it's not that far off topic :) 15:53:42 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c130-157.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:56:00 how... topical 15:56:14 Hey drewc, I think I got my 2co.com sorted. 15:56:16 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:57:26 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:58:05 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-uadsudpoeuiekhqy] has joined #lisp 15:58:57 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:59:10 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:06 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:00:17 merus [n=merus@pal-175-116.itap.purdue.edu] has joined #lisp 16:01:26 ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 16:01:58 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:08 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 16:07:51 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-191-200.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:57 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:09:47 sellout [n=greg@pool-151-199-34-167.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:01 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:10:50 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:13:28 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:14:12 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:15:32 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:15:51 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:15:57 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:16:16 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:24 -!- ausente [n=user5442@187.34.44.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:19:24 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:19:41 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:20:19 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:20:25 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 16:20:37 -!- silenius [n=jl@g225131096.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:22:23 -!- ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:24:29 -!- abend [n=sasha@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has quit ["Quitting..."] 16:25:46 -!- Grey_Fox [n=chatzill@ppp118-208-148-207.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox-3.5 3.5.2/20090803142520]"] 16:27:28 metawilm: are you there? 16:27:40 yep 16:28:03 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:17 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:28:38 metawilm: (clpython:run "import _struct") fails for me, though i set *clpython-module-search-paths* to what sys.path returned 16:28:51 let me check 16:29:13 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 16:29:51 -!- carrl [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:30:02 carrl [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has joined #lisp 16:30:36 stassats: it's not a pure Python module, this is what CPython shows for it: 16:30:51 .so files are not supported in CLPython... 16:31:14 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-12.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:31:14 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:31:20 http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/09/01/alan.turing.petition/index.html?iref=mpstoryview 16:31:29 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:31:30 mildly offtopic, but it may be of interest 16:31:33 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 16:31:57 metawilm: i see 16:34:31 metawilm: is it in plans? 16:36:01 stassats: i think an interface to C code using ctypes is the most promising way to go 16:36:13 jython and other implementation also go that route, iirc 16:37:00 dalton [n=user5442@189-19-126-202.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 16:37:11 stassats: but maybe it makes sense to port _struct to Lisp? i don't now really 16:37:14 letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has joined #lisp 16:39:09 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:40:06 nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:43:35 -!- iwaki [n=hide@PPPa272.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:43:45 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 16:43:49 -!- felideon` is now known as felideon 16:49:09 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 16:49:42 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-131.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:49:55 stassats: how about interfacing to the .so file using cffi? 16:50:06 -!- sellout [n=greg@pool-151-199-34-167.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 16:53:33 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-191-200.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:56:34 dysinger [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:50 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:58:00 I have a ffi c-type footype. Why does (footype-fieldname bar) work but not (footype-fieldname (intern "bar")) saying that BAR is not a structure of type footype? 16:59:06 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:59:18 metawilm: i don't really know, i just tried to load some library out of interest 16:59:33 murbank: see (symbol-name 'bar) 16:59:42 murbank: i suspect bar evaluates to an appropriate object, but (intern "BAR") evaluates to a symbol. 17:00:14 (symbol-name 'bar) returns "BAR" 17:00:20 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:50 Xach: How can I reference the object by string name? 17:00:59 -!- letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 17:01:27 murbank: you could put it in a hash table keyed by the string. 17:01:52 then use (footype-fieldname (gethash "bar" table)) 17:02:14 Xach: I'm trying to avoid specifying the relationship explicitly. I am exporting c variables to the same variable name in lisp 17:02:44 murbank: sorry, without more details i don't really understand the problem, and can't offer any more suggestions. 17:04:04 Xach: I want to refer to C variables accessed via ffi with a symbol name in lisp that coincides with the symbol (?) name in C. I want to achieve this automatically. 17:05:28 I believe I had achieved this with a macro around defcvar but now I can't seem to refer to the exported symbol using (intern name-as-a-string) 17:06:23 i still don't really understand, sorry. but perhaps you can use (symbol-value (find-symbol name-as-a-string)) 17:06:26 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:06:48 Xach: Thanks, that looks like something that would help. 17:08:11 that is the same as using the package system as a hash table 17:08:43 But I don't have construct the mapping manually. 17:10:30 -!- gko [n=gko@122.116.15.138] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 17:10:50 dysinger_ [n=tim@71.20.35.99] has joined #lisp 17:11:20 -!- noptys_ is now known as noptys 17:11:35 Xach: (symbol-value (find-symbol "BAR")) tells me BAR has no value. but evalutating BAR displays my data. 17:13:08 metawilm: an interesting approach would be to write an implementation of CPythons API that would call back into CLPython 17:14:33 Should (find-symbol) return something tagged with :INTERNAL? 17:14:41 (in my case) 17:15:08 if the symbol is internal 17:15:16 -!- zeroish [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:15:19 -!- dysinger_ [n=tim@71.20.35.99] has quit [Client Quit] 17:15:42 dysinger_ [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:51 -!- zeroish` [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:17:08 p_l: there are implementation differences that might make that not so simple, i'm afraid: how exceptions are implemented, garbage collection, how objects and classes are implemented 17:18:13 p_l: but on the other hand for IronPython they did implement/fake enough of the C API to make NumPy work, so never say never 17:20:28 -!- merus [n=merus@pal-175-116.itap.purdue.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:21:10 Should (symbol-value 'BAR) work? 17:21:30 -!- dysinger_ [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [] 17:21:48 if it has value 17:22:01 dysinger` [n=dysinger@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:22 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:22:32 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:23:02 ausente2 [n=user5442@187.34.47.44] has joined #lisp 17:23:55 metawilm: well, definitely calling CPython extensions would be slower than doing the same from CPython, but I think that as long as the module used higher-level APIs it should be possible 17:24:47 p_l: i was more concerned about the effort it would take to bridge the two worlds, not even thinking about speed 17:24:53 stassats`: It says it doesn't have a value but I believe it shoud. 17:24:59 should 17:25:19 Evaluating the symbol bar returns a value 17:25:47 then you are doing something wrong 17:26:02 murbank: paste the code at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and maybe i can puzzle it out 17:26:16 Thanks, give me a few minutes 17:26:31 stassats`: That is clear. The question is what :) 17:26:44 tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 17:27:46 Refering to Ron Garreth's "The package system for idiot's" or soething like that might be appropriate 17:28:45 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:29:11 -!- tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [Client Quit] 17:29:25 rstandy` [n=rastandy@95.74.13.27] has joined #lisp 17:29:47 metawilm: if it only has to support building extensions from source, it might not be that hard 17:29:51 tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 17:30:03 -!- ausente [n=user5442@189-19-126-202.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:30:14 The Idiot's Guide to Common Lisp Packages A tutorial by Ron Garret 17:30:21 correction 17:30:28 p_l, wanna give it a try? :) 17:31:31 metawilm: not now, but I might get some time during academic year 17:32:30 p_l: good! you could subscribe to clpython-dev in the mean time 17:33:08 metawilm: there's also question of how much should be implemented in wrapper library - many of the functions look to me like they don't even need to call into CLPython (mostly utility functions) 17:33:20 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:34:12 zeroish [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 17:34:42 p_l: sounds like i should give it another look too then 17:35:33 rstandy`` [n=rastandy@95.74.37.82] has joined #lisp 17:37:06 well google chrome for linux seems a bit crude but workable 17:37:29 I'll see if it understands MathML 17:37:56 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@76.87.84.207] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 17:38:11 est: does it require kernel patching yet? :D 17:38:40 P_I: It is a developer version.. You never know.. 17:39:19 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:39:40 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1CB2C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:47 afaik Google is writing some Chrome/NativeClient related kernel code for inclusion in mainline 17:40:45 is there a compatibility layer for what in ACL is excl::*infinity-double* ? 17:40:53 i'd need it in SBCL 17:40:59 at least 17:41:41 demmel: i haven't heard of a compatibility layer, but (apropos "infinity") in sbcl might help you. 17:44:34 Xach: It indeed does help. That'll work for now. Thank you. 17:45:19 metawilm: cursory reading of CPython docs suggest that most difficult part would be memory management and thread/interpreter related functions, rest looks quite simple 17:45:35 -!- rstandy` [n=rastandy@95.74.13.27] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:45:43 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-217-186.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:46:10 murbank pasted "symbol has no value" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86377 17:48:14 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-99-140-148-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:46 murbank: try (describe 'bar), maybe it's a symbol macro; or perhaps you are using Allegro modern mode? 17:49:11 sohail [n=sohail@99.251.84.57] has joined #lisp 17:50:29 metawilm: 'modern mode'? 17:50:45 metawilm: you mean, a reader that doesn't upcase? :) 17:50:50 sounds revolutionary 17:51:02 letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has joined #lisp 17:51:21 yeah, a case-sensitive one, nice if you are implementing Python :) 17:51:40 sykopomp: no, CL symbols in lower case 17:51:52 murbank: otherwise, macroexpand the call to ffi:def-c-var and see what happens with the variable 17:52:42 one would hope there's more to 'modern mode' than that... 17:53:10 metawilm: I'm using clisp 17:53:25 clisp has modern mode too 17:53:40 sykopomp: what for? 17:54:18 stassats`: modern mode sounds silly for something that simple 17:54:21 that's all 17:54:46 metawilm: (describe bar) returns my structure 17:54:51 knob [n=anon@66.50.222.67] has joined #lisp 17:54:57 Good afternoon everyone =) 17:55:10 murbank: (describe 'bar) 17:55:36 stassats`: "No value" 17:56:29 antgreen [n=user@bas2-toronto06-1177888238.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:56:50 that's all? 17:56:58 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 17:57:06 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:57:18 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:57:23 stassats`: Sorry, I mistyped the case. 17:57:56 stassats`: It says "BAR is the symbol for BAR, lies in # .... 17:58:27 paste what it says 17:58:32 sure 17:58:32 ffi:def-c-var defines a symbol macro 17:58:43 mystery half-solved! 17:59:42 murbank pasted "(describe 'BAR)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86380 18:01:26 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:01:45 -!- laynor [n=laynor@93.107.74.222] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:02:23 So find-symbol and symbol-value won't work on symbol-macros? 18:02:26 -!- huangjs [n=user@p2162-ipbf6607marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:02:56 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 18:03:02 find-symbol will work 18:03:12 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-139-54.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 18:03:18 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:20 But not symbol-value on the result of find-symbol? 18:04:26 ahoy 18:04:32 right 18:04:59 ave levy :) 18:05:05 laynor [n=laynor@93.107.4.37] has joined #lisp 18:05:27 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:48 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has joined #lisp 18:05:53 fe[nl]ix, hey, how is it going? 18:07:26 ah, my brain is dying 18:08:12 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:08:35 What would I do instead? 18:08:54 Replace with the symbol-macro expansion? 18:10:23 murbank: what's the real code for the other half of what you're trying to do? 18:11:29 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-133-100.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:11:36 Good evening everyone! 18:11:46 each for loop typed in kills a thousand neurons 18:13:07 seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:13:14 huangjs [n=user@p2162-ipbf6607marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:17:56 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-99-140-148-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:18:47 murbank pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86382 18:19:43 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 18:20:25 htk__ [n=htk___@188.3.224.64] has joined #lisp 18:21:00 It's actually a tiny bit more complicated than that (the type is a struct and I have to take a subseq of a field member) 18:21:10 this macro is wrong 18:21:43 ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 18:21:48 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-8-169.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:23:05 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-46-28.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:23:37 Yes I know. 18:23:45 Sorry, I'm trying to fix it. 18:24:51 But that is the gist of what I'm trying to do. 18:25:02 levy: very well. I'm in vacation in Romania :) 18:25:10 eating mushroom stew 18:26:46 fe[nl]ix: yum! 18:26:50 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@nmd.sbx07476.centeva.wayport.net] has quit [] 18:26:58 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-63-54.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 18:27:56 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:28:07 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 18:28:11 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@host-64-179-113-99.col.choiceone.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:19 fe[nl]ix: while i have you here, rpg mentioned a specific need for pathnames... essentually something like PROBE-DIRECTORY.. the ability to find out if a pathname is a directory and exists. Do we have something like that in iolib pathnames? 18:28:38 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@host-64-179-113-99.col.choiceone.net] has left #lisp 18:30:05 drewc: I'll commit that in a few days 18:30:14 when I return to italy 18:32:45 drewc: actually it's already there: (iolib.os:file-exists-p "/tmp" :directory) 18:34:13 fe[nl]ix: cool 18:34:30 -!- rstandy`` [n=rastandy@95.74.37.82] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:34:54 -!- letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:35:41 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:36:11 rpg ain't here 18:36:53 drewc: i ran across a mention of cl-org-mode -- is that still in the works? 18:38:32 tagac [n=user@134.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:38:39 jlf: ya.. the parser works for the most part, and i've written a utility to do something like literate programming in org-mode. I can tar it up if you'd like to take a peek. 18:40:13 it only currently supports the bare minimum of org constructs needed to bootstrap the literate programming implementation, and i plan to focus my efforts on that aspect of it next. 18:40:13 yeah, i'd be interested. is it invertable? by which i mean can i parse an org file, manipulate it in cl, and produce an org file with my changes? 18:41:29 -!- htk__ [n=htk___@188.3.224.64] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:41:30 not yet, but it shouldn't be too hard. The literate programming bit includes a stub for an org-tree walker.. it's just some simple PRINT-NODE methods after that. 18:41:40 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:41:46 htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.224.64] has joined #lisp 18:42:50 doylent [n=doylent@host69-57-dynamic.51-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:43:09 my next goal is to implement round tripping from org->generated source->edited generated source->org so that my 'literate' program-generated code can be manipulated outside org mode and re-synced with the .org. 18:43:25 that sounds promising.. i'd like to use that to build a web interface to my todo.org so i could affect the .org directly from my phone instead of having to batch-integrate updates later. 18:43:36 exactly 18:43:40 jlf: heh, that was one of the goals 18:44:48 anyway, glad to hear it's on the active list. i think it will be useful to a lot of people. 18:45:22 knobo [n=user@193.217.20.38] has joined #lisp 18:46:09 The hunchentoot documentations states that sessions should not be considered really secure. How can I improve the security for sessions to eavesdroppers from hijacking sessions? 18:46:14 ssl? 18:47:02 zoldar [n=zoldar@kyh66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:47:10 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:47:26 -!- ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has quit [Success] 18:49:05 weirdo [n=sthalik@c150-178.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:51:29 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 18:51:44 -!- nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:51:59 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 18:52:30 nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:52:31 knobo: use a large key-size relative to the number of users you plan on supporting for one. There are a number of other approaches to web security that can help, but none of them are on topic for #lisp 18:53:24 drewc: but maybe it could be a topic for #lisp what's weak about huchentoot? 18:53:45 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 18:55:11 knobo: it could be, if something were weak about hunchentoot specifically, rather than sessions in general. What is this 'weakness' that is hunchentoot specific rather than general to programming with sessions? 18:57:42 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:58:21 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-46-28.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:26 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:58:33 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:51 the hunchentoot manual says that sessions should not be considered secure. It would be good to know why. 18:59:24 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:46 there should be a better explanation than "these are not secure", agreed 18:59:50 levy_ [n=levy@apn-89-223-188-223.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 19:00:27 knobo: would you care to rewrite the part and ask edi (or who maintains hunchentoot) to include the explanation? 19:01:11 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:01:23 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:01:43 he does include an explanation guys... sessions are succeptable to hijacking. This has nothing to do with hunchentoot, it's just basic web security 1021 19:01:44 101 19:02:20 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-139-54.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:02:31 -!- jyujin_ [n=jyujin@d221-90-121.commercial.cgocable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:03:18 I i know the length of your session key, and sessions are the only way you are protecting private data, there is a finite chance i can guess they key and re-create urls that act on another session. 19:03:29 If i* 19:03:47 drewc: so are all session implementations suspect to the same danger? 19:03:54 or just the hunchentoot implementation? 19:04:00 of course... think about it for a second! 19:04:09 he is mentioning eavesdroppers, so I think ssl should be enough. 19:04:17 sigh 19:04:36 *drewc* goes back to developing secure webapps for a living. 19:05:01 now, of course isn't enough - most people just don't know. these are the questions people are asking. and the lack of dead-simple inclusive manual would help 19:05:14 argh, doesn't help, i mean 19:05:39 laynor_ [n=laynor@93.107.26.166] has joined #lisp 19:06:24 jyujin_ [n=jyujin@d221-90-121.commercial.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:54 google for 'web security'.. read, learn, hack. Expecting the manual for your webserver to teach you about security is like asking the SBCL manual to teach you how to code... some things are _your_ responsibility! 19:08:05 and this is all off-topic for #lisp ;) 19:08:45 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:09:24 you can also use http://www.owasp.org/index.php/Category:OWASP_Testing_Project as a guide 19:10:06 drewc: would "hunchentoot sessions are not any more secure than any other session implementation" be too much? 19:10:06 drewc: I was not asking for web security in general. I was wondering if there was some known weaknes in hunchentoot that specificly should be considerd. 19:10:54 -!- sepult [n=user@87.78.169.126] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:11:08 guaqua: that's implied... by go ahead and ask edi to change it so i don't have to hear about it anymore. 19:12:05 knobo: and i immediately answered mentioning that this is a general weakness and not hunchetoot specific. why are we still talking about it? :P 19:12:26 drewc: no insult intended, really 19:14:06 felideon: OWASP is a great resource... i should have just pointed them there in the first place :) 19:14:56 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-240-169.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 19:15:10 drewc: because I thought you did not understand the question, as you were talking in general terms, and I meant specificly hunchentoot and what was reffered in the manual. But I can see that we agree now, so I'll stop. 19:15:31 yeah. interestingly I was testing the authentication for a website done in .NET, and .NET pretty much handles most of what's outlined in OWASP right out of the box 19:15:48 ASP.NET i mean 19:16:25 -!- laynor [n=laynor@93.107.4.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:16:49 -!- tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:17:36 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:02 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32D796.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:11 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Client Quit] 19:20:07 i'm happy to report that i've never had to touch ASP.NET, but i would imagine that, given their users, 'secure by default' is an important design criteria :) 19:20:29 indeed :) 19:21:14 tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 19:21:19 -!- seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:21:28 drewc: ASP.NET doesn't seem too bad... now, certain people using ASP.NET should never been introduced to WWW.... 19:22:10 p_l: i'm actually a closet fan of C# and the CLR, so i imagine i could find something to like in ASP.NET as well. 19:23:58 drewc: the worst offender when it comes to ASP.NET, from the pov of user of eldritch abomination created by some insane monkey on crack, is when said insane monkey on crack used a visual designer created for *applications* to make a web page. Thus, JS being used in place of drewc: imagine JS-triggered post request for a f*cking link 19:26:19 scary 19:27:00 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:27:16 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:27:23 that happens very often these days. the postback stuff, right? 19:27:26 p_l: at least it's not a POST request on hover 19:28:48 tic: yeah. I'm not sure, but I suspect it's a part of some bundled ASP.NET AJAX library and some don't understand the difference in use... 19:29:01 has anyone played with valgrind + SBCL? It doesn't seem to work out very well. :) 19:29:15 vex amd64->IR: unhandled instruction bytes: 0x63 0x4C 0x8A 0x1 0x48 0xC1 19:29:15 ==2645== valgrind: Unrecognised instruction at address 0x100932028D. 19:29:28 ... somehow I'm not surprised 19:29:45 and then valgrind raises a SIGILL :P 19:32:02 younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 19:32:17 hi all 19:32:37 compiling crome for linux is a mjor project 19:32:40 hello younder 19:32:41 foom: the last time I tried, valgrind ate all available RAM and swap before it got killed 19:32:47 major 19:33:05 Krystof: I wonder if this is better or worse, then. :) 19:33:26 This time my linker went into a infinate oop 19:33:33 loop 19:33:39 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:33:48 foom: on the other hand, there can not possibly be any leaks in sbcl 19:33:53 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:01 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 19:34:06 Krystof: I wasn't looking for such, but rather in the C++ library linked into the same address space 19:34:18 well axiom calls.. later.. 19:34:19 p_l, yup. 19:34:40 foom: awkward. If you find out if it's possible to play nicer, let me know 19:35:18 can someone explain this -- http://paste.lisp.org/display/86386 19:35:46 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:46 emma: not all lisps understand a leading ~ 19:36:03 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:36:11 emma: and if your *default-pathname-defaults* was not "/home/em/lisp/" then the first won't work either. 19:36:34 hm, i wonder where do you set that. 19:36:39 or maybe it's best not to. 19:36:48 it seems to just expect stuff to be in ~ 19:37:13 hm, the instruction it complains about doesn't even look that strange. movslq 0x1(%rdx,%rcx,4),%ecx 19:37:21 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:37:21 emma: i use ,cd in the repl 19:37:28 axiom requires fast javascript on the client size to in real time edit and display mathML 19:37:41 emma: http://xach.livejournal.com/179622.html is what i wrote to help sbcl understand ~ 19:37:52 By the way Xach i recognize you! 19:37:58 perhaps I just need a newer version. 19:38:00 *weirdo* almost succeeded at fixing scigraph when ubuntu crashed and then broke upon restarting 19:38:02 so a JIT javasscript compiter is just what we are looking for 19:38:16 Xach, you are the guy who said, "That book is dead sexy!" 19:38:21 that is me 19:38:25 Lets's see if I can build Crome from source 19:38:26 first, pathnames like "dwim/foo" have to be changed to modules 19:38:39 then, FEATURE_CASE isn't registered during compilation 19:38:49 and then i don't know, because it crashed 19:38:55 p_l: meow 19:39:20 I have a precompiled build woring 19:39:25 working 19:39:33 emma: *default-pathname-defaults* is a really handy mechanism. 19:39:34 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 19:39:50 but I really need to be state of the art 19:40:11 latest CVS 19:40:20 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:40:20 emma: as for setting *default-pathname-defaults*, you can just use SETF to change it to whatever pathname you want -- say, #P"/home/em/lisp/" 19:40:31 or dynamically bind it for a little while. 19:40:39 but ,cd is more convenient 19:40:58 -!- dysinger` [n=dysinger@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:40:58 it is :) 19:41:27 -!- nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:42:01 -!- knobo [n=user@193.217.20.38] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:42:30 nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 19:42:53 -!- est [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:42:55 |doylent| [n=doylent@host69-57-dynamic.51-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:42:59 -!- doylent [n=doylent@host69-57-dynamic.51-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:43:20 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2DBC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:20 weirdo: managed to compile scigraph? :D 19:43:36 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 19:43:38 p_l: almost. as i said, ubuntu crashed and now i don't have any graphics 19:43:47 lol 19:44:05 but i managed to at least get it to load individual files instead of whining 'can't open fasl' 19:45:19 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:45:36 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.224.64] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 19:47:06 -!- tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:47:25 is gmail down for anybody else? grumble grumble. 19:47:29 make that SVG 19:47:59 drewc: it's up here 19:48:21 -!- aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host59-46-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left #lisp 19:48:33 fe[nl]ix: bloody hell! :) 19:48:37 drewc: it's erroring for m. 19:48:39 me* 19:48:46 'Server Error' 19:48:47 a net nazi.. 19:49:58 sykopomp: ahh good.. i guess. 19:50:29 i've got a draft mail sitting in a textbox that i can't save or send! 19:50:53 i wonder if their IMAP server is still up.... 19:50:58 drewc: down here too. 19:51:06 hah 19:51:20 i am popping into gnus just fine 19:52:28 yeah, imap is up but it's at least 20 minutes behind it seems. 19:52:46 sebell [n=sctb@mail.arcurve.com] has joined #lisp 19:55:53 francogrex [n=franco@91.180.253.162] has joined #lisp 19:56:22 what happened to define-loop-method? 19:58:34 francogrex: I don't think that has been part of any standard. 19:59:06 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:59:47 ok, it was planned I think 20:00:46 francogrex: it's in the comments of dpans3 20:00:59 % The names \f{defloop} and \f{define-loop-method} 20:00:59 % have been suggested as candidates for such a method. 20:01:43 -!- levy_ [n=levy@apn-89-223-188-223.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:02:36 levy_ [n=levy@apn-89-223-188-223.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 20:04:04 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 20:04:31 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 20:04:42 what is the purpose of using (load (compile-file "foo.lisp")) instead of just (load "foo.lisp") ? 20:04:48 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 20:05:04 -!- csmerlin [n=smileymy@99-31-211-124.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:05:24 csmerlin [n=smileymy@searspoint.nvidia.com] has joined #lisp 20:05:44 emma: compiling the file first will generally make things faster. 20:05:57 emma: in some cases, very very very very very much faster. 20:06:02 Xach: I see. Reason i asked was that I found that in a doc online; was wondering if anyone undertook that task. meanwhile I use the extendable iterate package instead 20:06:05 oh it actually turns your lisp source code into a binary? 20:06:16 emma: it compiles the lisp source file. 20:06:29 it compiles the lisp source file into a binary? 20:06:29 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:06:38 emma: No. To a FASL. 20:06:47 to me when you say compile that means take a source file into binary. 20:06:52 oh i see i dont know what it means then. 20:06:54 Now you know better. 20:06:57 okay 20:07:01 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:07:17 With Lisp, you can compile individual functions, too. That doesn't mean they turn into binary files you can run at the command line. 20:07:20 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:39 is it possible to turn lisp programs into binary? 20:07:45 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:07:55 emma: yes. Specifics depend on the implementation 20:08:01 emma: source files are already binary 20:08:11 emma, for SBCL, e.g. http://mikael.jansson.be/log/freezing-lisp-in-time 20:08:12 source files are written in lisp.. 20:08:22 emma, http://paste.lisp.org/display/83768 20:08:38 emma: and what is lisp written in? 20:08:43 emma, stuff is already compiled to native machine code (or "binary" .. whatever) 20:09:18 hmm 20:09:31 emma: every byte is a series of bits, a binary primitive. one or more bytes may comprise a character. I think that's what dlowe means? 20:09:44 so when you load a file it's not really a script as in just reading it as it's written. 20:09:47 emma: hence, lisp source files are binary files. 20:09:54 ehu`: you really don't believe in the socratic method do you? :p 20:10:04 Lycurgus [n=Ren@pool-71-186-135-250.bflony.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:13 dlowe: no :-) 20:10:23 emma: if you mean executable files - strictly speaking no and yes 20:10:31 i was going to say lisp is written in English words, just about. 20:10:34 executable binaries in the c sense 20:10:54 ehu`: you should try 20:10:59 you'd need to make a snapshot of a running lisp image to do that 20:11:12 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 20:11:37 and it can be done and it is a common way to distribute or deploy applications 20:11:42 emma: the reader reads the file as it's written, but translates it to something comprehensible for the lisp system (interpreter, whatever); in the process, it resolves reader macros like #n= and #n# 20:12:06 lisp is a mystery 20:12:17 emma, perhaps you mean; http://paste.lisp.org/display/83851 .. but i dunno 20:12:32 (annotation #1) 20:12:52 emma: not really; it has very strictly separated different concepts. 20:13:24 argh 20:13:30 it can still be a mystery 20:14:00 *Xach* decides against "like a prayer" lisp parody lyrics 20:14:26 doylent [n=doylent@host69-57-dynamic.51-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:14:30 when i always heard of programs being compiled I thought that meant, a language like C (which is not a scripting language) it took the english words people write as code, and then turned that into assembly, and then turned the assembly into 1's and 0's. 20:15:09 and then i thought there were other languages like, say, php or something that were scripting languages, where you never compile them, the computer just runs through them word by word. 20:15:09 emma, most Lisp compilers read text and turns into it 1's and 0's. 20:15:15 I see. 20:15:17 -!- |doylent| [n=doylent@host69-57-dynamic.51-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:15:44 emma, that's an interpreted language, yeah. There are other ways. You can compile to an intermediate step, bytecode, like Java does it. 20:15:48 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:49 quite a few languages (including php) have some intermediate formats, most don't interpret from scratch every time 20:15:51 eventually a person needs to be able to turn what they have coded into a binary that they can give to others to execute. 20:16:10 emma, and as for doing that in Lisp, did you read the link I pointed you at? 20:16:47 there are more ways than that to deploy software 20:17:08 Lisp is Different(tm), so the usual compiler + source = executable doesn't apply here. what you get is compiler+source = compiler+source, to make it even less clear than when we began. ;) 20:17:15 tic, looking at it now 20:17:41 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 20:17:50 Are there any other contributing factors to SBCL's default external format besides LANG/LC_CTYPE? I can't seem to get SBCL to load UTF-8 files in Linux where LANG=en_CA.UTF8 20:18:13 As of 1.0.31, that is. 1.0.23 works 20:18:19 well in order for software to be useful there must be a way for people to get your application and run it, without having to ever know anything about lisp or compilers. I hope. 20:18:56 emma: you can distribute a lisp image that has everything in it 20:18:59 <_Pb> emma: still having problems with emacs/slime/lisp? 20:19:10 _Pb, nope i have that running now 20:19:15 <_Pb> cool! 20:19:20 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has joined #lisp 20:19:24 yeah that's pretty good. I do make some progress. 20:19:31 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:20:08 to understand lisp requires some thing more than is typical. It's just the impression I have. 20:20:20 Like maybe a masters degree in computer science. 20:20:25 <_Pb> haha 20:20:32 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:20:33 <_Pb> it seems like the only immediately usable scheme or lisp system is PLT 20:21:11 rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-40-187.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 20:21:23 _Pb, common lisp is also immediately usable. 20:21:30 emma: reader and evaluation model is dead simple 20:21:33 _Pb, did you ever see the gigamonkey book? 20:21:36 <_Pb> yes 20:21:44 <_Pb> you're talking about lisp in a box? 20:22:07 No Im just using sbcl 20:22:12 <_Pb> ah 20:22:13 and slime 20:22:14 emma: lisp can be easily understood by people without any mathematics and CS education over elementary school level 20:22:19 like me 20:22:26 weirdo, on come on. 20:22:29 <_Pb> lispworks also, right? 20:22:40 it seems the less baggage you carry with you the better tbh. 20:22:52 hmm i did C and perl and still it was ok 20:22:57 (baggage or expectations of "how things should be") 20:22:59 but i wrote pretty functional perl code 20:23:02 well i dont have a lot of baggage. This is going to be my first real programming language. 20:23:19 <_Pb> lnostdal: true 20:23:21 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:54 the reader reads the file as it's written, but translates it to something comprehensible for the lisp system (interpreter, whatever); in the process, it resolves reader macros like #n= and #n# 20:23:58 everything but a symbol and a cons evaluates to self. a symbol evaluates to its lexical value. a list form takes its symbol in the car and sees whether it's a special form, a macro or a function 20:24:02 what's hard about it? 20:24:12 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:24:21 weirdo, that's hardly what Im talking about. 20:24:21 of course it's a small simplification, but a small one 20:24:55 you have a different idea of what 'understanding' is than I do, and also you are talking about understanding something different than what I am trying to understand. 20:25:15 what are you trying to understand? 20:25:26 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:25:38 lisp 20:26:05 You are talking about so called normal order evaluation, which does make sense. Im talking about all of lisp. 20:26:15 emma: read hyperspec 20:26:24 there are chapters about each part of ANSI CL 20:26:29 <_Pb> read McCarthy's original lisp paper! 20:26:44 <_Pb> that helped me understand lisp more than anything 20:27:08 If some miracle happens, over some period of time, so that I do breakthrough and understand lisp, then I will show you all how to explain things to people who don't understand things :) 20:27:47 emma: I'd start on a different book if I were just starting out 20:27:50 emma: there's no miracle. I think weirdo might be exaggerating a bit, but I do agree that there's nothing magical or mysterious. Just ask questions whenever you're confused, because there are logical answers to all of them. 20:27:52 minion: tell emma about iscp 20:27:52 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``iscp''. 20:27:54 minion: tell emma about sicp 20:27:55 emma: please see sicp: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available gratis from (HTML), (texinfo) and (XHTML, PDF). Accompanying video lectures are available gratis at 20:27:57 -!- GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:28:23 -!- joevandyk [n=joevandy@98.117.141.171] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:28:43 joevandyk [n=joevandy@32.152.108.19] has joined #lisp 20:30:05 drewc: http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/9gbkb/omfg_gmail_is_down_wtf/ 20:30:15 lol at the url 20:30:21 maybe there is just a lot of jargon that is taken for granted, like 'request handlers' or 'resolves macros like #n= and #n#' which to me seems funny to think anyone who is writing (defun hello-world () (format t "hello world!") would understand. 20:30:39 -!- levy_ [n=levy@apn-89-223-188-223.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:30:54 emma: #n= macros are reader variables 20:31:08 what is a reader variable? 20:31:11 levy_ [n=levy@apn-89-223-188-223.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 20:31:16 (values #0='(foo) #0#) 20:31:17 cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-64-42.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:22 "request handlers" aren't anything related to Lisp, they're a concept for a specific type of app. 20:31:22 it returns the exact same object 20:31:39 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@92.229.174.113] has quit ["humhum"] 20:31:41 I sense a great disturbance in the net, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror. 20:31:57 it's mostly used for 1) sloppy code that should use LET 2) circle-printing 20:32:02 Adlai, but apparently you must know what they are. 20:32:29 emma: no, you don't have to. Knowing the basic readmacros on the other hand can help. 20:33:22 when the reader encounters #N= for some number N, it stores the next thing it reads, and #N# will re-insert that value when the reader next encounters it. This only works within the same form, though. 20:33:45 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-64-253.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:34:13 bytecolor [n=user@32.158.62.117] has joined #lisp 20:34:18 -!- bytecolor [n=user@32.158.62.117] has left #lisp 20:34:30 -!- csmerlin [n=smileymy@searspoint.nvidia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:34:39 csmerlin [n=smileymy@99-31-211-124.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:04 emma: if you want the full guide to the various readmacros (most are way simpler than "sharpsign-equalsign" which I just described) 20:35:27 ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:35:29 this is the clhs page on the standard reader syntax: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_d.htm 20:35:32 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:36:46 HAN--SOLO [n=juankils@84.79.13.16] has joined #lisp 20:37:02 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:37:08 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-63-54.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Success] 20:37:46 drewc: http://www.google.com/ig/gmailmax 20:37:52 i can access my inbox 20:37:59 found on digg. 20:38:30 <_Pb> i was just using gmail from apple mail 20:38:51 <_Pb> any ECL people here? 20:39:34 drewc: did you know about http://www.google.com/appsstatus#hl=en ? 20:39:44 the only thing I was saying is that the lisp source may not be exactly what the reading program sees, if reader macros are used, meaning that the source and the lisp forms seen may not exactly be the same thing. 20:40:50 v0|d: !!! thank you sir! 20:41:01 FWIW, imap seems to be working fine as well. 20:41:41 <_Pb> yeah 20:42:34 hm its interesting that no info is avail about the problem. 20:42:43 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:42:48 v0|d: how would they send it? :) 20:42:55 drewc: I think the direct url is https://www.google.com/accounts/ServiceLogin 20:43:05 drewc: twitter? 20:43:15 v0|d: hahahaha :) 20:43:22 http://twitter.com/google 20:43:24 -!- demmel [n=demmel@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [] 20:43:26 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:44:14 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:01 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-46-28.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:45:39 hey guys, Xach, i just figured out something kind of neat with slime 20:45:49 -!- HAN--SOLO [n=juankils@84.79.13.16] has quit ["Me'n vaig"] 20:46:01 You can type ',' at the > and then do 'cd' and change what slime considers the working directory. 20:46:15 so i changed mine to ~/lisp 20:46:44 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:03 emma: Xach told you that a few minutes ago :D 20:47:16 emma: most SLIME commands are available that way, there's a full listing of them in the manual. It's worth a read. 20:47:37 fe[nl]ix, oh are you sure? hmm. 20:47:39 |Soulman| [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:47:47 (and yes, ditto what fe[nl]ix said, I'm also sure.) 20:47:55 -!- rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-40-187.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:48:39 i scrolled up. I see he did say that, but if you do scroll up you should be able to see why I would miss it. 20:49:10 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:49:22 If he's your celebrity, that means you should listen all the more carefully to what he says... 20:49:52 but ,cd is more convenient 20:50:20 there's no reason i would know he was talking to me, or what ,cd means. 20:50:27 not at the moment he said it. 20:50:28 he said it way before. 20:50:32 -!- HG` [n=HG@85.8.89.202] has quit [Client Quit] 20:50:38 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-27-181.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:50:40 " emma: i use ,cd in the repl [22:37:17]" 20:51:20 easy to overlook because it doesn't mean anything. 20:52:59 w/e, now you know how to use it. I suggest you read the relevant section of the slime manual too, because there are many such ",foo" commands worth knowing. 20:53:08 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:53:09 levy__ [n=levy@apn-89-223-188-223.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 20:53:34 Adlai, yes now it does mean something. And I agree. 20:54:35 -!- levy_ [n=levy@apn-89-223-188-223.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:55:47 (it's section 8.2.1 -- node "REPL Commands" if you're browsing the info manual) 20:56:08 er, 8.2, sorry. 20:56:33 8.2.1 and 8.2.2 list the commands, and 8.2.3 is the ,shortcuts 20:56:47 i'm trying ./clbuild install lisp-on-lines but it says it cannot download unknown project 20:57:01 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:58:24 is lisp-on-lines actively developed? 20:58:46 blitz_ [n=blitz@n15-60.dsl.vianetworks.de] has joined #lisp 20:59:53 yes 21:00:36 do i need to update the clbuild project db somehow? cant find the command in --long-help 21:00:52 -!- sebell [n=sctb@mail.arcurve.com] has left #lisp 21:01:50 felideon: darcs pull 21:02:10 felideon: though I recommend just reinstalling clbuild, as darcs pull tends to have weird side-effects 21:03:16 p_l: that was it. i just saw ContextL, UCW, and lisp-on-lines added 21:06:11 krig [i=kegie@stalin.acc.umu.se] has joined #lisp 21:07:44 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 21:08:21 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:08:42 -!- francogrex [n=franco@91.180.253.162] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:09:31 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:12:23 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.79.58] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:12:35 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:13:42 milanj [n=milan@79.101.79.58] has joined #lisp 21:15:56 heh... i almost like this gmail better! 21:18:10 Anyone have a minute for pondering ASDF? Is there a good way to say "system S doesn't depend on system S1, but if you want to apply OP to S, you need to load S1." 21:19:44 rpg: if you need to load S1 in order to apply OP to S, then S depends on S1 21:19:52 that's the definition of "dependency" 21:19:53 rpg: what I do for my test suite is that I put the (asdf:oos ... 'my-system) in the 'test-op method definition. 21:20:06 rpg: one way to do that is to define a method on asdf:operate, which loads the op 21:20:16 (what sykopomp said) 21:20:21 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:20:28 fe[nl]ix: No, I don't believe that's true. What if OP is TEST-OP? Loading my system does not depend on the test library; only testing it depends on the test library. 21:20:40 rpg: http://github.com/sykopomp/sheeple/blob/10f0f8d7a7990216d6d775bf9587b0b3ce62eda1/sheeple.asd 21:21:02 fe[nl]ix: This is a very important case, because we don't want to require everyone who uses our system to have to also use our test library (esp when loading it is heavyweight). 21:21:19 sykopomp: thanks. Looking.... 21:21:44 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 21:22:58 rpg: keep in mind that you have to write a tiny bit more asdf-specific code for that to work -- see tests/setup-tests.lisp in the github repo that sykopomp linked. 21:23:12 Adlai: it's not in that branch. I linked master. 21:23:18 sykopomp: Yes, this is the sort of thing I find myself writing over and over. I'm inclined to dig in and see if I can extend defsystem and the guts of ASDF so that I don't have to keep doing that. 21:23:51 sykopomp: yes it is... you have to define one more asdf:operate method, to actually call your test suite. 21:24:16 rpg: having a :test-dependencies option in asdf might be the most appropriate route to take 21:24:33 I don't know what other cases you might want to pull off stunts like these in. 21:24:35 oh, ok, so it would be in a different file -- tests/sheeple.lisp 21:24:37 (I typically add :depends-on ((test-op (test-op "foo-tests"))) for system foo to avoid that perform). 21:25:13 sykopomp: I have another case of a DSL that gets translated into lisp and then compiled. If the DSL source files don't change, I don't need to load the translator. 21:25:27 This suggests a more general notion of operation dependency. 21:25:40 rpg: may as well pressure fare into finishing xcvb 21:25:44 rpg: that's called a compile-time dependency 21:26:09 fe[nl]ix: right. Unfortunately, it's difficult to encode in ASDF. 21:26:24 doesn't asdf support :compile-depends-on? 21:27:06 well, :compile-depends-on is a special case -- there's :test-depends-on, and :my-wacky-custom-asdf-op-depends-on... 21:27:20 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 21:27:24 http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/09/good-agile-bad-agile_27.html 21:27:32 fe[nl]ix: The problem for the compiler is that it's on the level of a given source file that you detect whether or not you need to do a compilation, but you can't load a system at the level of a file... 21:29:02 fe[nl]ix: Here's a case: (:dsl-source-file "foo" :in-order-to ((translate-op (load-op "translator-system")))... 21:29:21 rpg: in other words, ASDF works well for simple use cases, but sucks for everything else 21:29:36 That won't work because when you do a component-depends-on at the :file level, you don't have access to system names, only siblings... 21:29:59 Oh, argh. Blasted school bus is up the spout and I have to go get child... Back in a while. Sorry to break off... 21:30:30 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:30 -!- ausente2 is now known as Dirac 21:30:52 -!- Dirac is now known as Taully 21:31:04 -!- Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:31:48 -!- Taully is now known as Rolls 21:32:08 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2DBC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:32:11 scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-65-51.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:38 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 21:32:45 -!- nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["Make a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night. Set him alight, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life!"] 21:34:07 -!- joevandyk [n=joevandy@32.152.108.19] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:37:13 -!- ampleyfly [n=ampleyfl@mustang.lysator.liu.se] has quit ["leaving"] 21:37:43 joevandyk [n=joevandy@pool-98-117-141-171.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:03 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:38:06 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:38:14 -!- Rolls [n=user5442@187.34.47.44] has quit ["eject"] 21:38:46 Rolls [n=user5442@187.34.47.44] has joined #lisp 21:39:31 ampleyfly [n=ampleyfl@fritz.lysator.liu.se] has joined #lisp 21:43:50 aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 21:44:11 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:45:10 "up to the spout"? 21:45:59 beach: "up the spout," "snafu," "foobar," "has gone pear-shaped." 21:46:12 -!- doylent [n=doylent@host69-57-dynamic.51-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 21:47:44 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 21:48:01 [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.95.40.15] has joined #lisp 21:48:05 *fubar 21:48:38 p_l: t. 21:50:02 rpg: Sorry to hear that! Everything under control? 21:50:10 A minor extension to ASDF to allow components to specify system dependencies would fix a lot of my problems. One possible solution would just be to provide a null method for FIND-COMPONENT where the component is a component, not a name... 21:51:24 beach: sorta. Child fetched, but now needs attention because of slip in transport. So I will go off, muse about possible ASDF fixen and propose some alternatives to asdf-devel... 21:51:35 later tonight... 21:52:12 rpg: Good luck! 21:53:20 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 21:53:31 Either way, good night everyone! 21:54:24 -!- Rolls is now known as dalton 21:55:31 -!- levy__ [n=levy@apn-89-223-188-223.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:56:18 beach: good night! 22:00:33 merus [n=merus@pal-175-116.itap.purdue.edu] has joined #lisp 22:01:26 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.79.58] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:01:42 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:01:59 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:34 ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 22:03:37 -!- dalton [n=user5442@187.34.47.44] has quit [] 22:07:28 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:12:04 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 22:16:44 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:01 -!- metawilm [n=willem@e179149142.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 22:18:33 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:18:48 dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f705651.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:06 mogunus` [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:28 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-6-143.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 22:22:57 (format nil "~r" 83248234234) is pretty neat 22:23:26 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 22:23:27 I dont know why it says 'nil' and not 't' though. Or why the ~r has to be in "" 22:24:12 clhs format 22:24:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_format.htm 22:24:27 emma: the ~r has to be within quotes because it's a string. just the characters `~r' would mean a symbol, and your Lisp would try and evaluate the symbol and throw an error. 22:24:28 mystery unfolded 22:25:45 roninbv [n=roninbv@c-76-111-63-165.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:20 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 22:26:34 -!- clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:26:52 I've put up a demo of my CL bindings to Ogre (3D engine) as a Windows executable at http://common-lisp.net/project/okra/ (see Download). I'd be interested in anyone's experiences with it. 22:26:58 *aerique* goes off to bed 22:27:09 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 22:28:19 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:30:24 -!- dys [n=andreas@95.112.64.184] has quit [No route to host] 22:30:59 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:32:18 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 22:33:42 -!- lukjad007 is now known as Snovo 22:33:59 -!- ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has quit [Operation timed out] 22:34:13 ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 22:34:17 -!- mogunus [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:34:22 is "~r" something unique to lisp? 22:34:49 no 22:35:02 -!- Snovo is now known as lukjad007 22:37:44 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-1-48.w90-59.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:42:34 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:42:42 -!- joswig [n=joswig@e177127254.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 22:42:52 -!- lukjad007 is now known as Snov1 22:43:18 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 22:44:02 -!- Snov1 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has left #lisp 22:44:11 rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-96-233.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 22:44:20 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-15-148.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:44:54 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 22:45:25 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 22:45:50 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-6-143.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:46:36 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:47:56 -!- tagac [n=user@134.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["/* */"] 22:48:40 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:49:02 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:59 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@92.82.44.216] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:52:38 -!- ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:52:52 GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:03 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 22:57:19 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:00:00 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:00:25 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:00:30 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:03:07 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:58 -!- knob [n=anon@66.50.222.67] has quit [] 23:06:21 *query-io* is some sort of 'global variable' that is telling the program what stream to look for? 23:06:35 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:07:11 something like that 23:07:21 how would you say it? 23:07:55 clhs *query-io* 23:07:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_debug_.htm 23:11:07 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:15:21 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.84] has joined #lisp 23:15:23 stassats`, you dont think the following sentence is at all cryptic --- 23:15:23 implementation-dependent, but it must be an open stream that is not a generalized synonym stream to an I/O customization variables but that might be a generalized synonym stream to the value of some I/O customization variable. 23:16:00 emma: no, not at all. notice all the links to the glossary? that de-crypts it. 23:16:41 but i think it's too early for you to worry about these variables 23:17:25 indeed.... i have never had the need to touch *query-io* actually :) 23:17:48 generalized synonym stream n. (with a synonym stream symbol) 1. (to a stream) a synonym stream to the stream, or a composite stream which has as a target a generalized synonym stream to the stream. 23:18:06 well, it has further links 23:18:24 it's _hyper_spec after all 23:18:55 synonym stream n. 1. a stream of type synonym-stream, which is consequently a stream that is an alias for another stream, which is the value of a dynamic variable whose name is the synonym stream symbol of the synonym stream. 23:18:57 haha ^ 23:19:06 emma: pleae stop pasting quotes from the clhs 23:19:08 please 23:19:20 okay sure. But I think I must also have made my point. 23:19:54 no 23:19:56 what was your point? that a language specification is very clear to define the language it uses to specify? 23:20:17 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.84] has quit [Client Quit] 23:20:32 well, i wish all CLHS was that clear 23:21:29 I fully respect that some of the people who use lisp are some of the most intelligent people you will ever meet. I would even say most serious lisp programmers are smarter than me. But I have confidence Im not a stupid person. I know how to be clear and lucid. I know how to communicate. Lisp needs to become better at communicating, or else it won't catch on again. 23:22:17 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-42.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:22:50 emma: so, how would you describe the limitations the spec places on the values contained in the standardized i/o customization variables? 23:23:07 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 23:23:12 you expect to learn lisp in one week? i know lisp more than 3 years and still do not know everything 23:23:36 (and assuming intelligence simply due to language choice doesn't show much smarts to be honest) 23:23:51 i have been working full time in CL over 5 years now, and i still learn something new every day. 23:24:08 drewc -- I don't claim I know more than that document. But that document isn't useful for learning from. It reminds me of http:/mathworld.wolfram.com 23:24:33 *stassats`* likes mathworld 23:24:37 I like it also. 23:24:43 hell.. i just learned that the i/o customization variables can't be synonym streams to other i/o variables. 23:25:08 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:12 So that document is written for someone who already knows lisp. 23:25:18 emma: why are you trying to learn lisp from the language spec? read a book! 23:25:25 Like mathworld is written for someone who already knows the math. 23:25:50 you need to understand basics, yes 23:25:52 yes, the hyperspec is not supposed to teach you common lisp, it _defines_ common lisp. 23:26:05 okay 23:26:21 most of us learned the hard way, (read/code/read/repeat) and didn't expect to understand it all in a couple days. 23:26:41 yes i totally get that. I hope I can figure it out quickly though. 23:26:46 hah 23:26:53 http://norvig.com/21-days.html <---- please read. 23:27:27 did you not read the part where we mentioned we've been at this for years and are still relative n00bs? ;) 23:27:46 No I totally get you there. People say it takes 10 years to become an expert at most things. 23:28:03 But you know, you have to try to do your best. 23:28:05 10 years of constant practice, yes. 23:28:18 That's a rather long time. 23:28:27 emma: is the best you can do complaining that the parts you don't understand are hard to understand? 23:29:24 I would just like to know where did anything set the value of *query-io*. I guess it is a 'pre-established' global variable that depends on your system? 23:29:44 by global variable that means that any definition can use it? 23:30:00 emma: learn the basics and that question will answer itself. 23:30:06 do you know what's scope and extent? 23:30:41 No I am only in the third chapter of the book. 23:30:56 This is my first programming language. 23:31:14 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:31:24 23:31:35 maybe you should have read gentle introduction to symbolic computation first 23:31:35 *drewc* goes back to work 23:31:47 minion: tell emma about PCL 23:31:48 emma: have a look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 23:31:55 damn brain 23:32:00 minion: tell emma about gentle 23:32:00 emma: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 23:32:01 that's the book im reading. 23:32:07 i meant to say this 23:32:10 oh okay 23:32:45 i'll get it. 23:32:54 -!- zeroish [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:33:08 yes, wholeheartedly recommend gentle. Do all the paper exercises before even touching a lisp system. 23:33:51 my wife was able to learn quite a bit of lisp using gentle... she can actually decipher C(AD)R chains better than i can :) 23:34:24 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:35:02 Does your wife also write Xorg drivers for living? :-) 23:35:23 *deepfire* ducks 23:36:17 She used to work in tech support, so is technically inclined, but no, hacker she's not. 23:37:02 I will get this, i can do this practical lisp book, and I won't bother this channel much. 23:37:20 -!- egosh [n=Miranda@71.pool-157.kaluga.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:38:12 seangrove [n=user@adsl-69-225-113-166.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:28 emma, don't let occasional edgy interactions here discourage you from participation, though! 23:38:55 deepfire, don't worry Im a libertarian ;) 23:39:38 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:39:58 -!- faux [n=user@82.182.78.98] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:40:01 and i must say stassats` and drewc are both two of the best people i've met in #lisp. There help has been indispensible :) 23:40:16 drewc: Have I got a gift for you. 23:40:32 Well, maybe. 23:41:11 *Xach* will email more info 23:41:16 emma: and here i thought i might have been too curt with you... thanks for the vote of confidence :) 23:41:41 Xach: now you'll have me refreshing my inbox waiting for the surprise! :) 23:44:47 Im pretty tough. That's why I chose lisp. 23:45:55 lisp isn't tough, though 23:47:12 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:57 -!- Yuuhi`` [i=benni@p5483E035.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:48:37 stassats`, the environment around it is 23:49:09 i can't compare 23:51:47 Anybody has hints on how to track down condition-handling sites? 23:52:40 deepfire: grep handler-.* `find . -name \*.lisp` :) 23:52:51 drewc, that's how I started.. 23:52:56 ..yesterday 23:53:12 I'd agree about the environment thing. Many languages have much less time-and-effort-to-operational values. 23:53:17 hah... do you know where the condition is signalled from? 23:53:32 drewc, *b-o-s* told me, yes 23:53:42 if so, try (break) and 'v' your way through the stack frames 23:53:55 I've tried to bisect the stack frames.. 23:54:18 and? 23:54:19 So far I'm having trouble getting meaningful results. 23:54:44 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:54:46 make sure your DEBUG level is turned up and SPEED and SPACE down.... 23:55:12 the 'v' will get you to the function that generated the stack frame, and robert's your father's brother.. non? 23:55:19 Once I find the sucker, I'll submit a patch to rip the handler out, given that it's an actual ERROR which is silently suppressed. 23:55:43 spytheman [n=delian66@95.111.111.218] has joined #lisp 23:56:54 Thanks, the debug level thing fell out of my mind eye's FOV. 23:58:21 drewc, didn't understand the father reference, though. 23:58:24 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:58:30 is there a lisp library that converts units? For instance, it could support something that allows me to multiply the euros/kg with the weight in grams and ask it to give me the total amount in dollars 23:59:44 deepfire: "bob's your uncle"