00:00:51 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:15 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-muoklpgeawsrymyf] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:01:21 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:01:37 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:46 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 00:03:27 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit ["I plead the fifth"] 00:05:19 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 00:09:00 KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:29 p0a_ [n=user@athedsl-376259.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 00:11:21 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@c-67-170-103-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:11:22 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:11:47 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 00:14:37 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:14:44 S1100100` [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 00:14:49 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:15:07 I'm a bit lost in the CL-PCRE documentation. Could anyone please help me locate a function such that (f "foo" "/f/") returns "f" 00:15:15 -!- S1100100` is now known as S11001001 00:16:00 <_3b> (defun f (a b) "f") 00:16:21 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 00:16:35 _3b: Fantastic 00:16:49 <_3b> what are the #\/ for? 00:17:50 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:17:59 In C with PCRE you have to compile expressions before you use them 00:18:07 Do you have to do that work in lisp too? 00:18:16 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 00:18:27 <_3b> sort of, usually compiler macros deal with it for you though 00:19:14 It's funny how you speak 00:19:23 <_3b> (defun f (a b) (cl-ppcre:scan-to-strings (string-trim "/" b) a)) 00:19:25 To understand you I must already know the concepts you're speaking of 00:19:41 <_3b> ^ would be an example of where the compiler macros probably wouldn't be good enough 00:20:36 <_3b> more generally, don't worry about compiling before hand, unless you are generating patterns at runtime (including storing them in variables) and need performance 00:20:43 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-178-65.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:21:46 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 00:22:19 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:22:22 p0a_: create-scanner produces a compiled scanner you can re-use 00:22:40 Xach: indeed, thanks 00:22:46 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 00:23:06 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-384296.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:23:08 -!- p0a_ is now known as p0a 00:23:52 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:24:16 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 00:24:17 envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 00:24:21 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:49 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:27:19 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:47 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 00:29:16 <_3b> if you actually have a reason for wanting the // around the regex, you might want to look at cl-interpol as well, since it probably supports perl regexes more completely than just dropping the #/ from the ends like i did 00:29:36 *_3b* assumes the /f/ was the regex, and not the foo 00:29:47 yes 00:30:26 <_3b> (defun f (a b) (cl-ppcre:scan-to-strings (format nil "[~a]" a) b)) meets the spec as well for example :) 00:34:32 roconnor [n=roconnor@69-165-129-229.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:35:59 -!- jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:37:37 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-yrrritthvfjczdzt] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:42:47 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@209.131.62.113] 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[n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 01:13:59 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 01:15:26 -!- [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.95.40.124] has left #lisp 01:16:11 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:17:16 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:17:28 -!- jknupp [i=4556768c@gateway/web/freenode/x-crdxqmzbibonnzur] has quit ["Page closed"] 01:17:50 -!- Von_Neumann is now known as ausente 01:17:51 -!- hefner [i=hefner@ppp-58-9-113-97.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:23:11 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 01:29:17 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C6E1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:30:17 -!- ausente is now known as novato_br 01:30:18 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:30:18 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:30:44 -!- novato_br is now known as tonik 01:30:54 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 01:30:58 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h6n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:32:05 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 01:35:07 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:36:28 hefner [i=hefner@ppp-58-9-112-163.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 01:37:25 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:37:46 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 01:38:24 how confused am i about the spec and macrolets? just found horrible bugs in lispworks and ccl 01:40:05 http://trac.clozure.com/openmcl/ticket/592 and 01:41:26 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:41:48 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 01:42:45 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:09 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.lispworks.general/9395 01:44:25 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:44:46 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 01:46:52 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:47:11 ilitirit: are you sure that the local macro definitions are visible at compile time? 01:47:16 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 01:48:14 at compile time certainly they are, or else macros would be useless 01:48:32 the ccl one is about :execute time, where i guess it is more of a question 01:48:54 the lispworks inline fail is absolutely awful in my opinion 01:49:11 -!- iwaki [n=hide@PPPa272.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:49:27 serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-155-144.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:49:29 -!- mrsolo 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connection] 03:08:46 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 03:09:02 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 03:11:12 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:11:47 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 03:11:57 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-151-196-43-142.balt.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:17 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:13:46 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 03:17:42 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:17:46 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-31-104.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:48 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.224.106] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:19:02 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 03:21:18 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:21:46 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 03:23:59 logBot8931 [n=logBot@59.92.166.113] has joined #lisp 03:25:29 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:33 htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.224.106] has joined #lisp 03:26:40 -!- timchen1` [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:26:51 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:27:16 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 03:28:54 timchen119 [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has joined #lisp 03:30:28 ilitirit: wrt ccl, I don't think macrolet guarantees that it will affect the compile-time lexical environment 03:30:46 but the LW one is certainly unreasonable behavior 03:32:05 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:32:10 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 03:36:40 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-213.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:36:52 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-213.northland.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:47 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@72.11.81.253] has quit [] 03:38:05 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-31-104.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:39:02 -!- timchen119 [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:39:48 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:41:12 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 03:41:30 Summermute66 [n=scott@c-68-55-207-173.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:36 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-68-55-207-173.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:46:49 S11001001, you can use macrolet to implement the functionality of compiler-let, so what do you mean by the compile time lexical env? 03:49:37 krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-79-90.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 03:51:11 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 03:51:20 morning, #lisp. 03:53:18 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:53:43 the lexical environment in which CTT forms are evaluated at compile time 03:53:46 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 03:55:23 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:55:46 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 03:55:48 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:56:09 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 03:57:34 timchen119 [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has joined #lisp 03:59:33 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:59:34 yes, so the macrolet implementing compiler-let explicitly demonstrates that macrolets do affect the compile time lexical env 03:59:42 -!- GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:00:10 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-30-186.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:16 [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.95.54.141] has joined #lisp 04:00:20 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 04:02:14 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 04:04:27 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-101-220.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:05:28 -!- Summermute66 [n=scott@c-68-55-207-173.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has left #lisp 04:05:29 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:05:46 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 04:05:53 -!- timchen119 [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:05:54 seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:06:26 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-77-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:07:38 timchen119 [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 04:08:17 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 04:10:13 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:10:31 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 04:10:54 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 04:11:11 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 04:13:02 Good morning. 04:13:08 good morning, beach 04:13:38 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:14:19 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 04:14:58 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 04:14:58 -!- timchen119 [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:15:14 timchen119 [n=vzloct_2@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 04:15:27 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 04:16:11 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:17:16 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:17:47 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] 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[n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-drhsotqkozzspete] has joined #lisp 05:07:21 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit ["off"] 05:10:21 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:10:34 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:10:46 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 05:12:43 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:13:19 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 05:13:59 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 05:14:01 morning 05:14:07 hello splittist 05:14:48 beach: reasonably temperatures now in Bx? When do the students arrive? 05:15:46 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:51 splittist: It is still pretty warm, but it is supposed to rain today. We open up on September 1st, but I am not sure when the first students show up. 05:16:07 hi. My brain seems to have stopped. How would I do something like (setf (getf (last some-list) :some-key) some-value) 05:16:08 ? 05:16:27 (the par that doesn't work is that (last some-list) is not setf'able 05:20:26 are you sure you want to do that? (last some-list) returns a list containing just the last element 05:20:26 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:20:46 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 05:20:46 or better said, the last cons in some-list 05:20:46 Moe111: You can replace (last stuff) with (cdr (last stuff 2)) in some cases. 05:20:57 what I want to do is take a list of lists like so '((:a 1) (:a 2) (:a 3)) 05:21:06 and add :is-last t to the last item 05:21:20 i.e. 05:21:31 '((:a 1) (:a 2) (:a 3)) --> '((:a 1) (:a 2) (:a 3 :is-last t)) 05:21:53 Then you want (car (last list)) 05:21:59 ahh' 05:22:01 so you probably want (let ((x (last some-list))) (setf (getf (car x) :some-key) some-value)) 05:22:21 a beach beat me to it :) 05:22:53 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-213.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:22:56 ilitirit: He probably doesn't want the temporary variable though. 05:23:04 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-213.northland.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:25 trying it out now 05:23:46 beach, yeah i was getting carried away 05:24:10 i guess it's a style thing, depending what you think is clearer 05:24:58 ilitirit: Not quite. If the key doesn't exist, it might get added to the beginning of the place, and if you use a temporary variable, you won't get the side effect on the list. 05:25:06 Yes indeed. it works. 05:25:31 great. thanks guys 05:25:38 No problem. 05:27:56 ilitirit: compiler-let doesn't affect the lexical environment, it only sort of looks that way because of the processing order 05:28:56 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:29:01 (if I am following the definition of compiler-let correctly :) 05:29:28 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 05:30:03 S11001001, i was talking about using macrolet to implement the functionality of compiler-let -- see http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Issues/iss066_w.htm 05:30:15 no, indeed x3j13 issue compiler-let-confusion says that compiler-let only creates special bindings 05:30:19 not about compiler-let itself, but using macrolets to fiddle with the lexical environment 05:30:33 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:31:00 at the bottom of that page they give an example of using macrolet/symbol-macrolet to add the compile time bindings 05:31:44 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Success] 05:32:05 are you referring to defmacro compiler-let...setq bindings...? 05:32:11 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1B71.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:32:30 no -- " The same thing could be accomplished using MACROLET:" 05:32:34 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 05:32:55 benny [n=benny@i577A1B71.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:33:27 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 05:34:53 -!- nvoorhies_ is now known as nvoorhies 05:36:54 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:37:25 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 05:40:47 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:41:01 hello 05:42:36 the first one works by wrapping the macros available for expansion of NCT code (note that nowhere is an *expansion* of typed-var or local-type-declare actually *evaluated* at compile-time), not by altering the lexical environment available to compile-time-evaluated code 05:42:42 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 05:43:10 it took me a while to work that out, so give me a minute with the symbol-macrolet one 05:43:43 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has left #lisp 05:44:11 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 05:44:13 the second one isn't even ANSI because symbol-macro-value doesn't exist anymore 05:46:11 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:46:56 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 05:47:16 but the fact that it accepts ENV (which represents the NCT lexical environment, not the compile-time-evaluation environment) is telling 05:47:42 just to handwave the whole thing 05:48:24 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 05:48:28 i don't understand what you mean by the compile-time-evaluation environment 05:48:51 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 05:50:16 e.g. the environment in which (foo) is evaluated in the form (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (foo)) when it is a top-level form 05:50:55 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 05:51:03 i thought that macrolets affected this environment . . . 05:51:23 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 05:51:47 I don't see why they would, they are intended to affect the expansion of code to be evaluated at load-time or eval-time 05:52:06 now, you can say (defmacro a () 42) (defmacro b () (a)), because defmacro doesn't affect a lexical environment, it affects the global environment 05:52:36 furthermore, it is guaranteed to take such affect at compile-time, before another form is expanded 05:52:52 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:53:23 but if I say in the same file (macrolet ((a () 21)) (b)), the result is still 42, because macrolet affects a lexical environment 05:53:24 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 05:54:36 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 05:54:38 on the other hand, were I to say instead (defmacro b () '(a)), then the macrolet above, the result would be 21, because I am lexically replacing (b) with (a) by answering a form (a) instead of evaluating the result of expanding (a) in the lexical environment of macrolet b 05:54:46 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 05:56:41 dysinger [n=tim@166.187.62.83] has joined #lisp 05:57:02 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 05:57:19 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-76-23.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 05:57:28 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 05:58:01 -!- dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:58:38 -!- dysinger [n=tim@166.187.62.83] has quit [Client Quit] 05:58:42 dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 05:59:01 dysinger [n=tim@166.187.62.83] has joined #lisp 06:01:34 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-16-91.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:02:03 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:02:47 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 06:05:34 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:05:50 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:06:23 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:06:37 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-76-23.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:06:44 but compile-time occurs after macroexpansion time, or so i thought, so all the macrolets are already expanded 06:06:44 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 06:08:07 "compilation" refers to the overall process of creating an executable program from text 06:08:29 Says who? 06:08:34 The lisp definition is somewhat different from that. 06:08:39 well, think of it in terms of a simple implementation 06:08:46 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:08:48 You may wish to refer to the hyperspec's chapter on compilation. 06:08:56 which supports the ENV object you can get with defmacro lambda lists 06:09:13 S11001001, macros can expand to stuff like (eval-when (:compile-toplevel ...)) 06:09:18 indeed 06:09:22 yeah, I meant general English not Lisp. 06:09:29 but it's not in stages like that, it's all mixed up 06:09:54 S11001001, if a macro tries to refer to things in env like lexical variables or flets then the consequences are undefined, but referring to macrolets is defined 06:10:03 beach: You'll be glad to know that I'm almost ready to start targetting CL as an output language. :) 06:10:19 beach: I'll use that to test the JS target. :) 06:10:22 where is it so defined? 06:10:30 Zhivago: Great! 06:11:00 http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/sec_3-2.html 06:11:17 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@75.36.204.63] has joined #lisp 06:11:22 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@75.36.204.63] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:11:33 hmm, so McCarthy is still alive. I wonder if he ever has come here. 06:11:33 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:11:36 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 06:11:48 Not that we know of, and why would he? 06:12:04 I would if I were he. 06:12:32 at least once. 06:13:51 Lycurgus: there is no mention of a "program" in english definition of word "compilation" 06:14:19 Oh, you can compile a programme of events. :) 06:14:48 well, yes, my bad 06:15:52 he could be a rock star .. just-for-one-day .. Lycurgus 06:16:09 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-213.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:16:11 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-213.northland.net] has joined #lisp 06:16:12 in 3.2.3.1, item 4 indicates that macrolet puts bindings in "the same processing mode". There are two processing modes. 06:16:32 what happened to that guy that was being discussed who advertised for inexperience lisp programmers for $5/hr or somethin under the rubric "no lisp weenies"? 06:16:46 *inexperienced 06:17:40 actually IIRC it was $10. 06:17:50 he's probably under the sofa now .. like a balloon after flying around the room for a while 06:17:55 vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 06:18:13 seems he was a known lisper 06:18:14 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:18:37 and obvious pig. Well off for a jog. 06:18:46 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 06:19:46 -!- [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.95.54.141] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:21:39 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-30-186.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:21:48 was it to translate a Lisp application to a more modern language like PHP? 06:21:48 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:22:20 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 06:23:59 vu3rdd [n=user@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 06:24:28 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:24:31 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:24:41 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:24:46 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 06:27:35 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:30:08 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 06:31:46 benny` [n=benny@87.122.20.66] has joined #lisp 06:33:41 HG` [n=HG@xdslen067.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:37:18 *sigh* .. i remember trying to do "real" OOP in PHP-5.x.something .. the thing would not stop SIGSEGV'ing 06:37:20 :) 06:38:06 I've always wondered what "real" OOP means. 06:38:34 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1B71.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:38:43 hence the use of " and " 06:39:56 oh, and you did not use "? 06:41:05 huh? .. i've forgotten most of PHP and it now, jdz .. 06:42:03 perhaps it was more related to passing references(?) around and up/down the stack and whatnot .. not the OOP support really .. dunno 06:43:47 -!- benny` is now known as benny 06:43:49 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:44:34 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has joined #lisp 06:45:00 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 06:45:46 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has joined #lisp 06:46:38 -!- dmiles is now known as dmiles_afk 06:46:39 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 06:47:16 ASau [n=user@host203-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 06:47:48 -!- vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:49:08 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:49:20 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:49:45 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 06:49:54 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 06:53:52 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:54:14 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 06:54:59 for a long time I thought of Smalltalk as "real" OOP, but was over that by the mid '90s. 06:56:00 metawilm [n=willem@g225021243.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:56:02 (that or CLOS but there weren't a lot of working practical CLOS implentations in that period) 06:56:06 So, what does "real" OOP mean? 06:56:08 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 06:56:25 blessed by a poobah 06:56:59 Ah. Gibberish. 06:56:59 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:57:11 also used to be polymorphism, encapsulation, and inheritance 06:57:13 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:57:14 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 06:58:24 dunno about now. Everything's mugglefuggles now. 06:59:14 poet [n=poet@unaffiliated/poet] has joined #lisp 07:01:11 can somebody download me from ACM this article, please: M. Bermudez and G. Logothetis, Simple Computation of LALR(1) Lookahead Sets. Information Processing Letters. 1989. Volume 31. 07:01:49 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:02:30 Logothetis is a nice name. 07:03:27 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:03:31 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 07:03:37 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:03:44 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 07:05:00 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6BAE0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:05:03 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-207.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:05:14 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:06:44 -!- p_l_ is now known as p_l 07:07:28 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 07:08:01 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:08:59 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:09:17 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-213.northland.net] has joined #lisp 07:09:17 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-213.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:11:26 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:11:44 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 07:12:13 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:12:33 -!- poet [n=poet@unaffiliated/poet] has quit [] 07:12:44 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 07:16:41 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:17:42 lexa_ [n=lexa_@83.222.5.112] has joined #lisp 07:18:10 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest17937 07:18:17 kenpp [n=kenpp@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 07:18:30 sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 07:19:25 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 07:19:59 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 07:20:45 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:21:08 good morning 07:21:10 hello mvilleneuve 07:21:23 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:21:44 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 07:22:18 beach: got your mail, thanks! 07:22:35 No problem. 07:23:08 -!- Guest17937 [n=lexa_@83.222.5.112] has left #lisp 07:24:09 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-188-91.northland.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:55 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:25:47 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-106-227.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:25:47 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:26:14 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 07:27:00 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-213.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:30:52 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:31:14 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 07:32:20 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:32:44 vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 07:32:46 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 07:33:15 prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 07:37:45 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-73-140.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:37:46 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:38:14 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 07:41:33 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 07:42:40 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:42:46 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 07:47:22 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:47:51 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 07:47:57 One of the things I loved about Dawkins's "The Ancestor's Tale" was that he would often, as an aside, complain about how taxonomy (i.e. the naming and categorization of things) limited one's understanding of evolution, and it eventually exploded into this pages-long attack on taxonomy *as a useful thing*, complete with a mind-bendingly beautiful example where taxonomy completely fell apart. Defining "OOP" reminds me of that. 07:48:06 anyone here understand about networking configurations? Specifically Routing and Remote access on win2k3 box. I know it's not the place, but I'm asking stil 07:48:40 sorry, we're still working out how to access an Exchange 5.5 server over MAPI in a NAT :) 07:49:36 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:55:50 S11001001: what about RPC-over-HTTP? 07:56:02 though 5.5 might not have that xD 07:56:42 pretty sure it dropped it just to be jerks to all us Evolution users. I used to use it before the "upgrade" 07:56:55 man. Routing and Remote Access is the crappiest piece of software I've had the displeasure in dealing with 07:57:19 Moe111: I had it working nicely on 2k8r2, though it didn't like wireless configurations 07:57:19 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:57:25 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:57:48 also, I'm not going to try downgrading an AD primary server into a router again 07:57:50 p_l: it gets really impossible to understand properly when you get complex. 07:57:51 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 07:57:52 hmm, I mean 2007, don't know why I thought 5.5 was an acceptable way to say that 07:58:23 Moe111: have you tried using console to configure it, instead of the GUI? 07:58:29 ASau` [n=user@host203-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:58:30 well, here's the thing: I have a VM machine hosting my webserver, and I have the mother host machine 07:58:32 Moe111: also, it's 2k3, so you even have OSPF 07:58:50 OSPF? 07:59:23 Moe111: well, you said "complex" routing :D 07:59:49 ok. here's a basic question, maybe you'll just know 07:59:52 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-4ae470d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:00:15 p_l: I have two nics, one is the actual interwebs nic, the second is an internal IP virtual NIC (connected to the VM) 08:00:24 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-4ae470d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:00:37 p_l: I've checked "Enable NAT on this interface" on the public NIC. 08:00:38 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 08:00:43 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:00:47 keithr`` [n=user@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:50 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 08:00:55 p_l: I've also enabled the ports to go to the internal IPs 08:01:22 and it still doesn't work? I recall doing some voodoo to make mine work, but I can't remember now... 08:01:22 -!- ASau [n=user@host203-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:01:24 p_l: what's the missing piece to tell it all that 192.168.1.100 (which is on the private nic) is one hope away? 08:01:36 s/hope/hop/ 08:01:52 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["ETOOMUCHITSUPPORT"] 08:02:18 -!- keithr` [n=user@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:02:26 ugh man. I hate upgrade paths like this. I had to upgrade the VMWare Server installation. It decided the previous network configuration wasn't good enough, plopped a new nic. that was 6 hours ago 08:02:31 Moe111: setting path manually? 08:02:35 sunrise in 4 hours. I ahve no server. 08:02:43 p_l: how would I do that? 08:02:43 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 08:02:52 Moe111: route.exe iirc 08:02:59 but I don't know how it will work 08:03:01 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 08:03:13 my windows server is currently indisposed due to licensing issues :D 08:03:39 you guys are off-topic 08:04:03 we sure are 08:06:47 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:07:14 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 08:07:56 *p_l* ponders if discussion on routing is closer to topic than discussion on sex and flirting 08:08:19 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:08:26 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-188-91.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:08:41 woodz [n=woodz@host90-152-51-38.ipv4.regusnet.com] has joined #lisp 08:09:24 hello, i finally decided to convert my CL project to darcs, is there a pdf manual to print ? 08:10:14 leifw [n=user@c-69-181-142-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:10:44 gosh .. you're too late; git is what everyone's using now .. http://www.darcs.net/manual/darcs.ps perhaps 08:11:27 ooh, there's another one, VCS chat :) 08:12:52 nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has joined #lisp 08:13:29 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:13:35 lnostdal, I wanted to port my project to git (that is what I know) but it seems that common-lisp.net doesn't support it. Do I have to use git-svn ? 08:14:19 S11001001, my question is more related to common-lisp.net 08:14:21 hm .. i think common-lisp.net supports git, but perhaps they have not updated their VCS information page 08:14:37 drewc, ping? 08:14:43 lnostdal, so should I mail to the admin ? 08:16:29 -!- hefner [i=hefner@ppp-58-9-112-163.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:17:17 i suppose, yeah 08:19:57 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:20:03 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:20:14 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 08:20:32 ok thank you 08:22:29 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 08:23:23 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-13-117.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 08:23:34 -!- zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:23:37 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:23:46 zbigniew [n=zb@69.12.216.46] has joined #lisp 08:25:45 -!- wasabi______ [n=wasabi@nttkyo393252.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:26:07 wasabi______ [n=wasabi@nttkyo393252.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:30:10 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:30:24 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@131.173.18.185] has joined #lisp 08:30:27 oh my loard. p_l 08:30:31 Oh my fricking lord. 08:30:47 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6BAE0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 08:30:52 I wish I could just kiss someone. 08:31:04 I'm released from my shackles, I can finally go to bed!! 08:31:44 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229078004.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:32:23 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:32:36 thank you all. and goodnight! 08:32:38 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [] 08:33:35 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 08:34:07 ... I guess my suggestion worked ^^; 08:34:29 -!- anekos [n=anekos@pl716.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:35:01 anekos [n=anekos@pl716.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:36:39 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:37:11 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 08:39:24 amaron [n=amaron@93.86.161.198] has joined #lisp 08:39:39 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-72-152.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:40:18 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:40:22 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 08:40:37 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:44:10 -!- vu3rdd [n=user@164.164.250.10] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:45:16 -!- vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:46:39 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:47:19 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-103-80.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:49:29 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:49:37 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 08:51:03 -!- kenpp [n=kenpp@84.92.70.37] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:51:50 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-78-239.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 08:53:58 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-78-239.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Client Quit] 08:55:51 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 08:57:41 Eleanore [n=a@69.172.133.147] has joined #lisp 09:05:49 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:06:17 besiria [n=user@pantou.lib.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 09:08:45 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:11:56 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 09:13:24 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@217-5-249.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has left #lisp 09:13:28 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@217-5-249.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 09:13:37 -!- koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.107.70] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:13:40 koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.107.70] has joined #lisp 09:14:16 htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.224.106] has joined #lisp 09:14:58 -!- amaron [n=amaron@93.86.161.198] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:17:29 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:19:18 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.224.106] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:21:46 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 09:22:18 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:22:18 ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 09:23:14 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 09:24:01 splittist [i=bc3c3f0e@gateway/web/freenode/x-lyfrzlcfmlvusura] has joined #lisp 09:24:02 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:26:44 Hmm, I wonder how much would break if (eql (cdr x) (cdr x)) were not required? 09:27:06 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 09:27:22 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:27:41 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:30:28 what do you mean? 09:31:39 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:31:53 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 09:32:00 Well, what if a cons block had a computational cdr slot that did not cache its result? 09:32:58 clojure has that 09:33:20 So that (eql (cdr x) (cdr x)) is not required to be true? 09:33:23 with the lazy sequnces 09:33:31 yes 09:33:42 Any untoward consequences of note? 09:34:21 well this is by design, so programs are written by taking that into account, so i can't say about any breackages... 09:34:34 but i stumbled upon this issue recently 09:34:51 Eleanore_ [n=a@69.172.133.147] has joined #lisp 09:34:56 i was trying to write something akin to sublis, but which would return the same structure if there were no changes made 09:35:23 so comparing the result of recursive call on rest with the rest doesn't work 09:35:51 (in some cases) 09:36:24 it would be a non-issue in this case if there were multiple values 09:36:42 How would that solve it? 09:36:46 -!- splittist [i=bc3c3f0e@gateway/web/freenode/x-lyfrzlcfmlvusura] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 09:37:09 well, the recursive call would return a value and a flag whether something has been changed in the value 09:37:23 Ah. 09:37:34 -!- nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:37:44 it still feels wrong to me to cons up vectors or anything else for multiple values 09:37:52 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-106-227.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:37:55 Lately I kind of wonder if multiple-value returns are actually worthwhile. 09:38:15 Mostly they are used to return two values, and you could do that via a pair. 09:38:29 Which has the added advantage of being a first class object. 09:38:49 yes, and there is no such type of object in Java... 09:39:14 As a pair? 09:39:15 Zhivago: but you can't add another value without changing every call-site. 09:39:45 Zhivago: yes, there are no pairs in Java. 09:40:01 frodef: Well, that's true -- but does that really happen enough to justify it? 09:40:29 actually we had this worthwhileness-of-multiple-values disucussion here recently 09:40:37 Also, what about uses such as truncate &co? 09:41:11 That's mainly an issue of automatic destructuring. 09:41:24 Zhivago: ..and what's the cost you worry about? 09:41:59 frodef: Mainly the complexity of the additional magic required for it. 09:42:31 Zhivago: i.e cost of implementing the compiler? 09:43:00 i wonder whether implementing "automatic destructuring" is any easier than multiple-values 09:43:05 Well, there's also the cost to the user, but ... they're going to pay one way or another. 09:43:19 what's automatic destructuring? 09:43:46 and ease-of-implementation is really not a concern for language users (i wish) 09:44:41 If you can select methods based on return type, then a lot of that disappears. 09:44:41 frodef: well, if you have destructuring-bind and then a function-call, SSC would theoretically avoid consing altogether 09:44:46 I might agree that 20 is a bit hight for multiple-values-limit, though. 09:45:55 jdz: it could, but perhaps at even greater cost than mv? 09:46:23 frodef: implementation difficulty cost? 09:46:30 also, I wouldn't want to say d-bind every time I call truncate. 09:46:33 jdz: yes 09:46:53 Yeah, but if you can have the caller select the version of truncate that produces one result ... 09:47:14 Zhivago, hm, if you want lazy conses without caching wrt. result you probably have a way to express that you want that explicitly when constructing the cons, no? .. so if it breaks, the user did so by explicitly constructing a special kind of cons ... (?) .. seems reasonable to me 09:47:18 well, with a bit of syntax sugar (as, e.g., clojure has) you have destructuring in let 09:47:21 compiler complexity, and perhaps the additional code-paths for many (every?) function. 09:47:28 -!- Eleanore [n=a@69.172.133.147] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:47:44 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 09:48:06 lnostdal: Well, you'd have a separate class for them. 09:48:35 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:48:47 frodef: I think it makes things simpler than in the present situation of returning excess values and ignoring them. 09:50:01 The other thing that I don't like about multiple-values is that since they aren't first class, but are returnable, it means you need some hack to for type propagation or whatever. 09:50:02 but if the "automatic destructuring" is implemented using a special kind of object (lets imagine values special form would create those) 09:50:14 Zhivago: simpler for the compiler implementor? I'm not so sure. 09:50:14 Yeah, call it a 'values-tuple' 09:50:29 Well, let's assume that we're using an actual type system. 09:50:35 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 09:51:04 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 09:54:19 -!- Eleanore_ is now known as Eleanore 09:54:42 Zhivago, ok, so EQL is a method then etc.? 09:55:13 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:38 -!- pizdets [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:55:39 -!- xan-afk [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["leaving"] 09:57:00 nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has joined #lisp 09:58:48 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-106-227.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:58:52 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:59:15 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 10:00:15 ..without using classes and methods but still a lazy typer i do this sometimes; http://paste.lisp.org/display/86175 .. i think a lot of code will break if (eql (cdr x) (cdr x)) wouldn't return T in general or normally though .... :} this is the lisp-in-javascript thing? 10:00:37 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 10:01:14 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:07:29 -!- nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:07:49 nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has joined #lisp 10:10:18 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:10:38 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 10:11:31 iwaki [n=hide@PPPa272.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:12:56 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 10:15:50 tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:18:49 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:19:03 -!- envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:19:20 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@131.173.18.185] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:21:53 could sbcl be more forgiving of pathnames such as that? (make-pathname :name "foo.bar" :type nil) 10:22:45 -!- leifw [n=user@c-69-181-142-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:22:51 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 10:24:05 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 10:25:30 -!- nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:25:46 nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has joined #lisp 10:27:10 htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.224.106] has joined #lisp 10:27:10 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit ["Caught sigterm, terminating..."] 10:28:16 -!- nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:28:45 nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has joined #lisp 10:29:00 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 10:29:36 anyone experienced slime going into some sort of recursive edit and bringing down emacs? 10:29:57 the mode-line looks like [[[[[ foo ]]]]] .. 10:32:31 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:32:41 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:35:55 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 10:37:26 -!- nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:37:44 nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has joined #lisp 10:38:50 -!- seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:39:57 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:40:02 nah, recursive edits works like they should 10:40:28 http://tehran.lain.pl/stuff/20090828-less-strict-namestring.diff 10:41:00 -!- Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit ["/quat"] 10:41:46 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:44:26 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 10:44:26 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 10:48:00 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:48:08 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:57:01 -!- nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:57:17 nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has joined #lisp 10:57:49 benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-124-177-91-65.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:00:24 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:06:28 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 11:06:29 -!- nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:06:49 nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has joined #lisp 11:06:49 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:07:52 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 11:07:52 -!- nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:08:14 nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has joined #lisp 11:12:58 ignas_ [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:13:10 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:15:49 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 11:16:27 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:18:09 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:19:39 Eleanore_ [n=a@ip215131.lbinternet.se] has joined #lisp 11:19:51 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 11:19:53 re 11:20:07 One day I'm going to have a memo.. 11:20:09 . 11:20:22 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 11:20:32 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-76-23.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:20:58 onde day you'll have a memo and minion won't have crashed between rejoins 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iwaki [n=hide@PPPa272.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has left #lisp 12:02:48 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:08:10 laynor [n=laynor@93.107.79.122] has joined #lisp 12:08:18 -!- nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:08:27 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:08:46 nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has joined #lisp 12:14:36 kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:19 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:17:13 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:18:34 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 12:22:25 I was hoping my fix for https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/411925 might be reviewed and applied. Should I mention it to sbcl-devel? 12:22:30 The thing I miss most about C is dealing with warnings 12:22:48 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-123-245.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:22:55 In C, if you see a warning, it's usually trivial to fix and you get an aaaah of satisfaction getting that thing out of the way 12:23:28 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 12:23:36 In sbcl, if you see a warning, it's some either some deep compiler optimization mumbo-jumbo or an indication of a horrible design flaw that will make your life hell 12:23:41 any sbcl devs around? 12:24:08 i was wondering if NAMESTRING would work with pathnames with dots and no :type 12:24:16 i mean, i have a simple patch, would you commit it? 12:24:23 some of them around, but others are asquare 12:24:55 weirdo: usually when I ask that question, they tell me to post to sbcl-devel 12:25:05 ok 12:25:55 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:26:35 -!- Eleanore_ [n=a@ip215131.lbinternet.se] has quit ["aeou"] 12:26:58 -!- nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:27:15 nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has joined #lisp 12:28:30 -!- nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:28:52 nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:36 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:31 dlowe: perhap we could add a layer such as lint to provide you with nice superficial warnings? 12:30:46 It just wouldn't be the same 12:30:54 You could name it OccidentForest. 12:30:59 anyway, there's lisp-critic 12:31:12 You could name it OccidentForest = Eastwood, CLint :-) 12:31:42 Oops, It's OrientForest. 12:32:21 -!- nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:32:48 nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has joined #lisp 12:33:13 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:33:39 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:35:21 how about Daymaker? 12:36:47 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:36:52 Daymaker as in? 12:37:34 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 12:38:23 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:37 "Go ahead, make my day" is one of Clint's most famous lines. 12:38:42 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 12:38:50 Oh. 12:39:53 -!- nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:39:53 gee how i miss AND-specializers in CLOS 12:40:02 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 12:40:08 one could add a mixin to a root class of everything and then specialize on (AND SOME-CLASS THAT-MIXIN) 12:40:14 nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has joined #lisp 12:42:09 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483BA0A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:01 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:46:45 -!- nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:47:11 why? 12:47:15 nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has joined #lisp 12:49:08 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 12:49:38 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 12:50:10 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:32 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 12:58:11 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:58:11 -!- ia_ [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:58:47 munichlinux [n=munichli@122.163.23.182] has joined #lisp 12:59:05 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 12:59:14 xan [n=xan@a88-113-6-160.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 13:00:50 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-106-227.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:01:04 can anyone suggest good books for data mining on lisp? 13:01:09 Xach, because if i add that mixin to the root class, i'll have to manually check whether it's that type or call CALL-NEXT-METHOD 13:01:42 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:02:04 I don't get it. 13:02:18 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 13:02:19 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 13:03:20 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 13:06:01 -!- munichlinux [n=munichli@122.163.23.182] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:08:33 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:09:40 Xach, i like making a special variable called *mixins* to which users could PUSHNEW their symbols/classes 13:09:52 and it would be even more fun with AND-specializers 13:09:53 nevermind 13:09:56 (defclass some-class-&-that-mixin (some-class that-mixin) ()) ;; then dispatch on that? .. *shrug* 13:10:13 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:10:34 -!- nipra_ [n=nipra@122.170.49.230] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:10:38 lnostdal, but some-class is defined and instantiated by me, and i want to make a user able to add functionality to my class 13:10:52 so you make a subclass 13:10:54 -!- AlexanderTeGreat is now known as ausente 13:10:57 and change-class 13:11:31 munichlinux [n=munichli@122.163.23.182] has joined #lisp 13:13:26 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 13:13:57 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 13:14:53 ia_ [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 13:16:30 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:16:41 what the... 13:16:49 //doing warm init - compilation phase 13:16:51 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 13:16:55 internal error too early in init, can't recover 13:16:55 13:17:12 did i use some function that isn't yet available in cold? 13:17:22 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:17:56 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 13:18:12 anyone knows what i can do in src/code/target-pathname? 13:18:21 it seems to be because of POSITION 13:18:42 unlikely 13:19:33 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 13:20:09 oh wait i know what i did wrong, i didn't check for stringiness of NAME 13:24:14 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:24:21 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:24:25 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:24:57 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:08 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 13:26:26 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #lisp 13:28:10 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:19 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:37 gio123 [n=jhjhxh@81.95.167.107] has joined #lisp 13:33:07 iis here anybodu from portugal? 13:33:34 gio123: some 13:36:55 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:37:16 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-151-196-43-142.balt.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:37:21 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 13:40:08 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 13:40:38 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:43 gio1234 [n=jhjhxh@81.95.167.101] has joined #lisp 13:40:54 -!- gio123 [n=jhjhxh@81.95.167.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:41:05 iis here anybodu from portugal? 13:42:19 gio1234: i bet some in #lisp-pt are 13:44:59 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:45:04 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Client Quit] 13:45:19 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 13:46:37 -!- xan [n=xan@a88-113-6-160.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit ["leaving"] 13:46:51 -!- ausente [n=user5442@189-19-125-6.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:49:55 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:50:32 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 13:50:59 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:52:01 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:52:23 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@aktaia.intevation.org] has joined #lisp 13:53:54 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:06 Grey_Fox [n=chatzill@ppp118-208-141-225.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:26 -!- munichlinux [n=munichli@122.163.23.182] has quit ["going out"] 13:54:46 are any of you guys doing CL with ARM as a deployment target? 13:55:01 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:55:03 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:55:05 p0a [n=user@athedsl-376259.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 13:55:16 Hello how can I force a file to be created if it doesn't exist with WITH-OPEN-FILE? 13:55:27 Something like :if-does-not-exist :create 13:55:29 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 13:55:37 same options as for #'open, no? 13:55:52 ah 13:56:14 lol. it's :create 13:56:25 "Options are used as keyword arguments to open", so you were right. 13:56:32 p0a: :direction :output should suffice 13:57:05 Xach: Ah. I read something on CLHS about WITH-OPEN-FILE doing some work if the stream is an output stream, but I did not understand 13:57:10 but I see, thanks. 13:57:13 *Xach* also almost always uses :if-exists :supersede too 13:58:30 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-30-186.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:50 I tend to use :if-exists :rename-and-delete more 13:59:15 -!- ASau [n=user@host203-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 14:00:13 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@aktaia.intevation.org] has quit ["Verlassend"] 14:00:16 hypno [n=hypno@195.43.248.109] has joined #lisp 14:00:31 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 14:00:45 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:00:59 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest68073 14:03:36 *rsynnott* didn't even know rename-and-delete existed :) 14:03:41 fgtech [n=federico@host94-170-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:04:02 (what happens if you use :new-version on a file-system without file versioning?) 14:04:48 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:04:50 some implementations use the emacs-style version suffixes (like ~1 etc). or so i seem to remember. 14:05:02 maybe it was clisp 14:05:11 sbcl uses a dot prefix 14:05:13 er, suffix 14:05:22 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 14:06:46 dlowe: :supersede should do the right thing on unix. :rename-and-delete is not necessarily the right thing on unix. 14:07:09 matimago: are you going to tell us why? 14:07:38 No, because I don't remember the details, but they're in the bug tracking of clisp.sf.net; a few years ago... 14:07:56 a compelling argument :p 14:07:56 or perhaps in the clisp-list mail list. 14:08:42 Why would you use :rename-and-delete anyway? 14:09:13 What's the purpose of renaming before deleting? 14:09:33 renames the old file, then deletes it on a normal close 14:09:47 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:10:51 I seem to remember that sbcl will rename the file back to its original on an error. 14:10:54 well, if a program opens a file for writing in unix, i can rename the file while it is being written to 14:11:47 It's the closest standard thing to the more unixy write to a temp file then rename over the old file 14:12:12 I see 14:12:17 but if the rename-and-delete atomicity is not supported by OS i can imagine bad things happening anyway 14:12:17 dlowe: Does :supersede do something different in sbcl? 14:12:18 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:12:31 Xach: doesn't it just truncate the old file? 14:12:47 dlowe: That wasn't my impression. 14:12:52 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 14:12:55 *Xach* can test easily enough 14:13:00 timchen1a [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 14:14:00 Why are wikipedia articles so polluted? :-(. I read about nihilism and there's mentions of gangsta rap and sex pistols and american sitcoms. 14:14:20 -!- timchen1` [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:14:22 p0a: does it mention lisp? 14:14:23 anyone here installed MacOS 10.6? I'm wondering has it broken ccl or sbcl 14:14:45 p0a: why is #lisp so polluted? i read it and there's mentions of polluted wikipedia articles 14:14:50 p0a: Because you are evil. 14:15:27 rsynnott: someone mentioned a runtime compiler error with ucontext headers, iirc, but it was easily fixed. 14:15:32 rsynnott: that's for sbcl 14:16:08 Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:16:16 jck [i=cee63022@gateway/web/freenode/x-hkluffqbpgrzgejt] has joined #lisp 14:16:17 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:16:57 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 14:17:14 Xach: sbcl source says that superseded files are created with the sb!unix:o_trunc bit set 14:17:27 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host94-170-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:17:34 dlowe: yeah, the behavior is not quite what i expected. 14:17:36 iwaki [n=hide@PPPa272.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:17:38 fgtech^ [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 14:17:54 dlowe: O_TRUNC has various behaviors depending on the file type 14:17:56 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483BA0A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:18:15 -!- fgtech^ is now known as fgtech 14:18:56 and other bit flags. http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/000095399/functions/open.html 14:19:34 p0a: I don't understand why you've mentioned that. 14:20:04 I thought it was relevant to the behavior you tried to investigate 14:20:21 stassats: you're right. I'm going to make this complaint to ##wikipedia ;-) 14:21:33 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:22:03 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 14:22:21 gio123 [n=jhjhxh@81.95.167.100] has joined #lisp 14:23:11 -!- gio1234 [n=jhjhxh@81.95.167.101] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:25:55 HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:26:55 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 14:27:12 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 14:27:58 nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 14:28:17 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:28:54 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 14:28:54 envi^laptop [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 14:29:09 -!- envi^laptop [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:29:41 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:31:11 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:32:34 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:34:28 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 14:35:20 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:35:54 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 14:36:12 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-144-70.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:36:45 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-155-144.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:37:38 -!- iwaki [n=hide@PPPa272.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:38:53 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:39:25 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:39:48 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 14:39:49 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:40:14 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 14:41:02 iwaki [n=hide@PPPa272.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:44:49 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E46576.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:53 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.224.106] has quit [No route to host] 14:46:55 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 14:49:55 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:50:19 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 14:50:58 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-087-052.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:18 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-376259.home.otenet.gr] has left #lisp 14:54:26 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:00:12 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:01:12 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:01:20 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:01:54 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 15:03:53 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:04:21 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 15:04:26 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:04:35 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-54-56.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:04:46 Good afternoon! 15:05:44 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 15:06:19 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-30-247.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:26 -!- Guest68073 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 15:07:34 -!- tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:12:36 zeroish` [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 15:17:02 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:17:31 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 15:18:43 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-106-227.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:18:57 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-30-186.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:18:58 -!- slyrus__ is now known as slyrus_ 15:19:53 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:20:14 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 15:20:58 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:21:14 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 15:21:48 salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has joined #lisp 15:22:08 'morning! 15:24:21 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 15:24:46 hello salex 15:24:54 salex: How are things? 15:26:14 busy, but good. job decisions made. 15:26:20 which was hard 15:26:32 I was just going to ask about that. What is it going to be? 15:26:54 i've actually turned down the tenure track academic offers 15:27:20 Wow! This had better be good! 15:27:41 yeah! i'm going to help start a new imaging r&d spinoff, associated with 2 (and soon 3, i think) universities and a medical imaging device corp 15:27:50 cool 15:28:03 so i'll still be peripherally working with a lot of academic stuff 15:28:03 salex: congrats! 15:28:03 splittist, memo from matimago: Here is a memo! 15:28:12 thanks guys 15:28:21 matimago: merci bcp! 15:28:29 i'm to be technical lead on software (we're developing new hardware too) 15:28:49 so i'll be doing less teaching, and more hiring of good hackers :) 15:29:13 salex: Very nice! We have people working with MRI and such in case you would like to talk to them some day. 15:29:24 entirely possible 15:29:25 i'm not pretending to be good hacker, but are you hiring? :) 15:29:53 not yet... 15:29:58 Let the empire building commence (: 15:30:02 heh. 15:30:22 salex: I am assuming you are going to do all this in CL, right? 15:30:27 heh. 15:30:28 salex: what kind of imaging? medical stuff? 15:30:39 hypno: yes, that's what I primarily do 15:31:02 beach: i'm not sure what I'm going to be able to do with that initially. I'll make a case, anyway 15:31:09 salex: ah, ok. cool. 15:31:37 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.201.24] has joined #lisp 15:31:52 beach: we're going to start with a bunch of existing tech (both hard and soft) and I haven't had a chance to look it all over yet 15:32:01 salex: If I am correctly informed, our CS guys are now getting involved in the MRI data acquisition as well. CS is taking over more and more from the traditional domains. 15:32:29 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:33:04 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 15:34:35 beach: nice! we'll have some interesting stuff going on in that area that I can't talk about yet, but soonish. I'm getting in so early that we aren't actually incorporated yet (and I was technically hired by another entity). So it's all pretty new. 15:34:51 and like all start ups, the next 6 months will be crazy. 15:35:44 anyway, this is all off topic :) 15:35:58 salex: where will you be based? 15:36:05 *splittist* struggles to make that on-topic... 15:36:17 -!- gio123 [n=jhjhxh@81.95.167.100] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:36:39 we're actually negotiating that right now (there are two cities in play for where this group will center). 15:38:14 anyway, all will be more clear in a month or so. it's going to be fun. 15:40:28 more on topic: i'll finally have (a little) more hacking time again. with a little luck, some lisping too 15:41:31 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:41:45 salex: would that be in Tx or somewhere else? 15:41:51 The startup? 15:42:04 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 15:42:24 no, not Tx. Back to Canada. 15:42:35 Even better. 15:42:38 :-) 15:42:42 I think so! 15:42:51 but i'll admit I may be biased ; 15:46:56 beach: what's new with you? 15:46:57 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:47:15 -!- prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:47:30 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 15:49:42 -!- Grey_Fox [n=chatzill@ppp118-208-141-225.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox-3.5 3.5.2/20090803142520]"] 15:53:10 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:53:17 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:53:56 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 15:55:55 salex: I am spending the last few days of my vacation to learn some more Vietnamese. I just came back from a week in Malmø in Sweden, visiting my family and my classmates from 35 years ago. 15:56:44 back home soon then? Must have been strange to see some of your classmates (assuming you haven't seen much of them in the interim) 15:56:48 Plus, this morning, my home computer finally broke down permanently, so I took it apart and ordered a new motherboard. 15:57:16 oh dear. we lost a laptop recently (older ibook). no fun! 15:57:23 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:57:59 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 16:00:41 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:02:06 salex: No big deal. I figured this would be the opportunity to learn a bit more about how to build these things. 16:03:01 Also, the guy who built this one was incompetent, and it had problems from the start. He also ordered the wrong graphics card for Linux. This time I hope to get it right. 16:03:12 ah, good point. 16:03:55 i used to build linux machines fairly often (ages ago now) and it was easiest to get up to date on drivers etc., rather than trust someone else not to mess it up 16:04:35 i think things are better now, though, than ten years ago 16:04:45 Yeah. I would trust the guys at work, but they are too busy, and it's not their job to help with personal equipment. 16:04:48 right 16:04:55 salex: sure, nvidia works, ATI is Free ;) 16:05:22 pkhuong: flakiness used to be pretty fine grained back then 16:06:17 Hmm, are there nicer variations on #+x in dialects other than CL? 16:06:29 these days mostly other people build my machines. until, like beach, my home machine dies 16:08:08 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 16:09:11 somewhere along the line i lost the time/inclination/whatever to mess with machines much, i guess 16:09:18 so i'm out of date on what works well 16:12:27 indeed. and it's generally easier, cheaper and with better support if you just call apple, sun, hp or dell, when /everything/ is accounted for (such as spending /days/ with drivers, kernels or whatever else nonsense). 16:13:11 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:14:15 well, yonks ago i spec'd out linux machines for an embedded product, so it was my job to account for everything. Spending days mucking about with drivers etc. makes more sense in that context 16:14:26 not so much recently, though. 16:15:43 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-101-220.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:43 Kutulu [n=kutulu@66-193-169-28.static.twtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:55 ah, true. the embedded market is a special niche. 16:16:34 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 16:16:52 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-30-247.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:20:50 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:21:00 -!- woodz [n=woodz@host90-152-51-38.ipv4.regusnet.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:21:34 scottmaccal1 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 16:21:39 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:22:01 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit ["HULK ANGRY! HULK DISCONNECT!"] 16:22:06 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 16:22:22 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.201.24] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 16:22:24 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:22:49 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:23:17 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 16:24:47 -!- iwaki [n=hide@PPPa272.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:25:52 skeptomai [n=cb@c-67-170-103-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:37 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C1CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:27 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 16:29:02 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-6.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:29:20 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:29:53 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 peddie [n=peddie@c-67-170-201-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:59 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:37:55 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has joined #lisp 16:39:38 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:40:17 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 16:41:35 halhorn [n=halhorn@124.148.70.6] has joined #lisp 16:42:20 -!- est [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:42:41 est [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 16:42:45 !seen 16:43:04 Bah, sorry, ignore me 16:43:10 How is everyone, anyhow? 16:43:11 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:43:56 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 16:44:17 halhorn: I'm fine at least. What's up with you? 16:44:50 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:44:54 Not much, just hitting IRC for a bit of company around two forty-five in the morning :D 16:45:13 halhorn: You are new to #lisp, right? 16:45:59 Zhivago: A case-like behaviour would be an improvement already 16:46:00 [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.95.40.234] has joined #lisp 16:46:02 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.24.150] has joined #lisp 16:46:12 Indeed so, I haven't lurked here much. Joined on a whim because I'm currently trying to learn a bit of Lisp. Apologies if this conversationalism business is out of scope for the channel. 16:46:40 halhorn: For now, you're fine. 16:46:48 halhorn: It generally is, yes. We try to maximize the S/N. 16:47:06 halhorn: What are you using in order to try to learn Lisp? 16:47:41 Righto. Shutting up and listening. Thanks for tolerance. :D 16:48:10 Using internet tutorials and stuff, uhm. Casting around for a project that I can work on, to gain operational experience... anyone know any good sort've newbie tutes? 16:48:11 OT: anyone know of an interactive neural-network tool to experiment with? 16:48:13 a good one 16:48:29 minion: tell halhorn about PCL 16:48:30 halhorn: have a look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 16:48:59 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:49:05 minion: tell halhorn about common-lisp.net 16:49:05 halhorn: direct your attention towards common-lisp.net: Common-lisp.net provides hosting services (mailinglists, cvs, ftp, etc) to (not necessarily) free Common Lisp projects. http://www.cliki.net/common-lisp.net 16:49:19 Ah, yes. I have this one bookmarked. 16:50:13 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 16:50:52 halhorn: For projects, you might also look at this one: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Lisp-projects/ as well as the site by nyef mentioned there. 16:51:14 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:52:03 halhorn: Where are you located? 16:52:29 Australia 16:52:31 GMT +10 16:53:09 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@c-67-170-103-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Ok, I'm outta here"] 16:53:35 Nice country! I hope you are proud of it. 16:54:11 I am indeed. It's a pretty decent place to be :D 16:54:34 -!- [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.95.40.234] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:55:48 *beach* vanishes in order to have dinner with his (small but still) family. 16:56:28 ejs [n=eugen@221-119-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:35 enjoy! 16:57:25 htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.224.106] has joined #lisp 16:58:56 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 17:02:40 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-101-220.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 17:02:57 seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:03:19 -!- scottmaccal1 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:06:24 seangrov` [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:07:00 -!- seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:08:59 -!- HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:09:19 -!- halhorn [n=halhorn@124.148.70.6] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:11:53 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 17:12:36 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:15:05 Small but still? 17:16:04 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["ETOOMUCH"] 17:16:40 Java almost has macros: http://today.java.net/pub/a/today/2008/04/10/source-code-analysis-using-java-6-compiler-apis.html 17:16:40 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:17:52 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 17:17:52 -!- dysinger [n=tim@166.187.62.83] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:18:13 I guess, Java makes everything so complicated that whatever little you achieve, you feel immensely proud of yourself _having_ it achieved! 17:18:27 -!- Kutulu [n=kutulu@66-193-169-28.static.twtelecom.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:19:03 -!- ignas_ [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:19:34 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 17:19:48 sounds like life 17:19:51 -!- roconnor [n=roconnor@69-165-129-229.dsl.teksavvy.com] has left #lisp 17:20:03 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:20:28 life, or politics? 17:20:39 let's vote. 17:20:54 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-101-220.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:15 And that from you?? 17:21:35 Works for Iran... 17:21:46 Touche 17:21:48 Kutulu [n=kutulu@66-193-169-28.static.twtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:46 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:23:23 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 17:23:27 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2AB5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:46 rread_ [n=rread@98.234.219.222] has joined #lisp 17:26:10 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-cmadwtiyksvcdbhk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:26:10 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 17:31:08 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:31:29 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 17:33:38 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-106-227.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:34:06 -!- Elench is now known as JHVH 17:35:51 -!- JHVH is now known as MinorityOfOne 17:37:46 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:38:15 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:38:15 dismantr [n=jean-bap@ptr25-1-78-228-5-94.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:44 -!- dismantr [n=jean-bap@ptr25-1-78-228-5-94.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:39:01 what would be least painful way to generate PDF from a text string without having to do any formatting or markup? 17:39:26 cl-pdf is a bit too raw for my tastes, unless there are higher-level stuff 17:39:42 your specification is very vague. 17:40:04 What kind of text string? What kind of PDF? 17:40:45 fusss, have you tried cl-typesetting ? 17:40:53 "download page as PDF" type stuff, xach 17:41:24 fusss: you have to convert html to text first then 17:41:25 lol 17:41:34 i just want to render the text representation of the html document into pdf, i don't care for formatting 17:42:12 Fare: haven't looked at cl-typesetting 17:42:53 (SETQ X (PROG2 0 Y (SETQ Y X))) 17:42:58 think of it as a pricelist, order form or receipt type of document 17:43:52 fusss: there's an ascii-to-postscript program, and a postscript-to-pdf program. there might even be an ascii-to-pdf program. 17:44:05 i think they're known as a2ps and ps2pdf. 17:45:04 yeah, i know of those 17:45:48 just wanted something lispy to start working with quickly, and come back to later to customize more throughly 17:46:16 timor [n=martin@87.234.97.27] has joined #lisp 17:47:07 *fusss* just notices the weirdest result of APROPOS 17:47:18 clozure is .. peculiar 17:47:28 mhm? 17:47:58 it displays the values of all bound symbols along with their type 17:49:00 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32FD90.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:37 neato 17:58:38 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 17:58:55 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 18:00:12 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 18:03:02 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-76-23.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:03:37 ... I decided that I will never more take a job where I am the only programmer :/ 18:05:23 and i decided that clozure on win32 kicks the collective butts of all other win32 lisps 18:05:59 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:06:25 Good evening! 18:06:33 i am going back to slime after 6 months on LW 18:06:36 hey beach 18:07:24 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:08:02 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 18:08:23 kenpp [n=kenpp@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 18:10:30 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:10:57 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 18:11:26 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:11:28 Davidbrcz [n=david@86.203.24.227] has joined #lisp 18:11:50 When I use (loop for i from 1 until (= i 3) (print i)) it prints 1 2, Can I change "something" to print 1 2 3? 18:11:57 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 18:12:02 -!- prip [n=_prip@host72-130-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:12:28 there should be (loop for i from 1 until (= i 3) do (print i)) 18:12:44 mrSpec: (loop for i from 1 to 3 do ..) 18:13:01 no.. it is simplier version of my function ;) 18:13:26 there have to be something like until... becouse I dont know how long I should iterate 18:14:02 mrSpec: you have simplified the question too much. can you unsimplify a bit more in the direction of the real problem? 18:14:07 It is exacly something like: (loop for i from 1 until (> (length (factors i)) 100) 18:14:35 (loop for i from 1 do (print i) when (= i 3) do (return)) sees to work, but i'm not sure it's completely valid syntax 18:14:36 I need first number with over 100 factors 18:15:02 ah ok, I will try it 18:16:20 slava: "features useful for systems programming, such as specialized array types, allowing binary pointerless data to be represented and manipulated efficiently. This is unprecedented in dynamic languages, where the usual approach is to farm out performance-intensive work to another language." <- "unprecedented" is a bit of a mouthful, no? 18:16:27 (howdy all!) 18:17:20 thanks metawilm :) It works 18:17:35 has anybody tried analyzing lisp code (or in general ASTs) with prolog? 18:17:42 mrSpec: ok! 18:17:43 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:18:23 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 18:18:31 prip [n=_prip@host30-133-dynamic.43-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:18:41 metawilm: i am interestedin doing it 18:18:56 metawilm: the first erlang (prototype) interpreter/runtime was written in prolog. not sure whether this answers your question, though 18:19:06 i'm thinking of indexing git repositories so that you can ask: when did the parameters of function foo change? 18:19:30 michaelw: ah, i remember reading that.. i'm more interested in "meta", properties about code 18:19:30 Puaff [n=Puaff@133.Red-217-126-10.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:00 or: in this code base, which functions are really similar 18:20:23 metawilm: well there is a java AST analyzer written in prolog 18:20:35 prolog gives you unification and a search strategy, it's not exactly magic; sometimes this (especially the latter) gets into your way and THEN you have to use magic (red/green cuts) to get out of this hole... 18:21:53 pretty much a very robost lisp optimizer would be nicein prolog (any language optimizer) 18:21:55 michaelw: been years since I wrote any prolog, what were green/red cuts again? 18:22:38 red cuts are usefull green cuts or for pre-mature-optimization sanity (thats my bad defination) 18:22:47 premature and pre-mature 18:23:17 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:23:30 hmmm, i firefox upgraded itself and now every time i go to http://localhost it tries to resolve that to localhost.COM! utterly disregarding the contents of my /etc/hosts :-/ 18:24:37 haha 18:25:00 isn't that kinda breaking the spec? :D 18:25:00 SBCL sure takes a while to compile 18:25:47 dmiles_afk: i get a few hits, do you have a specific project in mind? 18:26:09 oh hey.. every cut i puit in this file is green: http://logicmoo.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/logicmoo/openmodaliy/iso-prolog/logicmoo_api_markup.pl?hideattic=0&revision=1.1&view=markup 18:26:20 hehe 18:26:54 the AST analysis? http://roots.iai.uni-bonn.de/research/pdt/ 18:27:02 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 18:27:05 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:27:08 thanks 18:27:17 actually http://sewiki.iai.uni-bonn.de/research/jtransformer/start 18:27:37 the Jtransformer link on the first page 18:27:40 right, that sounds good 18:27:53 metawilm, I've tried analyzing lisp code. It's hard. 18:27:59 but .. i wriote a lisp inteprter in prolog.. it was wildly complete 18:28:06 ASTLOG is a paper about prolog queries on C programs 18:28:11 http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.42.7358 18:28:13 metawilm, to do it *correctly*, you'll have to reimplement all of it. 18:28:31 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:28:38 Fare: i'm just interested in "fairly well" 18:28:53 but i put my dads homepage as the projects page on SF and the project got removed ;( but it was really easy to write 18:29:00 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 18:29:07 you'll soon realize that "real world" lisp code uses all the possible corner cases you wouldn't like to support. 18:29:13 it didnt do clos yet but did quite a bit 18:32:49 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:33:18 Fare: my first use case would be analyzing python module dependencies, and Python has dynamic features like "eval" already that make fully correct static analysis practically impossible 18:34:51 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:34:54 sepulte [n=user@xdsl-87-78-102-243.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:35:21 Fare: yes, that's one of the annoying bits of CL, despite being a "language laboratory" in some ways, it's actually quite hard to extend (not that that ever was a requirement for CL) 18:35:30 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32FD90.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:11 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-123-245.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:36:16 -!- sepulte is now known as sepult 18:36:26 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-102-243.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:36:45 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-102-243.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:36:58 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:38:51 michaelw: oh wait, was green cut the one that only changes how much CPU you burn, but not the answers, and the red one that changes the results? 18:40:31 quite hard to extend? isn't that generally touted as one of its' strengths, or what do you mean? 18:40:41 mathrick: yes 18:40:47 -!- Puaff [n=Puaff@133.Red-217-126-10.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:41:05 mathrick, http://www.komiks.gildia.pl/komiksy/klasyka_polskiego_komiksu/13 18:41:32 hypno: it's hard to do it well 18:41:52 FVO "well" being "doesn't break horribly when combined with something else" 18:41:54 hypno: try adding a module system, for example. you will find that you have to reimplement the reader 18:42:07 yeah 18:42:48 green cuts though are usefull when someone is sending in wierd unpredicacble variable modes.. and you need your code to stop at the right varable binding 18:43:30 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@78.114.134.123] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:43:43 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:44:27 tic: oh, right 18:44:29 read it 18:45:02 to ja przepraszam. :) 18:45:25 tic: nie no, pytae, to wyjaniam :) 18:45:29 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslen067.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:45:30 tic: ##lisp-pl 18:45:44 michaelw, mathrick ah, well, i can agree with that. though, i find CL adequate for most needs. for me, trust and assurance is the biggest obstacles with CL. 18:46:24 hypno: trust? You mean like Java's sandboxing? 18:46:53 ie, arbitrary crashes in the runtime, but also, and more importantly, loose definitions on what you can do really safely with running code in production. 18:47:22 I'm unsure I get what you mean 18:47:58 *p_l* is still confused as hell when he sees non-native polish speakers 18:48:12 (outside Poland, that is) 18:48:34 pretty much all CL's have core dumped or crashed in mysterious ways for me. that gets me uneasy. 18:50:06 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-24-147-105-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:10 ffi? 18:52:04 mathrick: what is and what isn't atomic; what is and what isn't blocking MP; is hotswapping safe; etc. 18:52:25 amnesiac_ [n=amnesiac@charanda.shochu.sandino.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:49 hypno: oh, that's questions for your implementation 18:53:48 -!- ejs [n=eugen@221-119-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:54:22 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 18:55:50 p_l, must be. I've never encountered any non-native Swedish speakers. 18:56:24 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:56:34 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 18:56:48 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-xpapfroobsqsyuqi] has joined #lisp 18:57:25 Hadjaha! 18:57:58 that's not svedisch :) 18:58:10 Tjo! 18:58:19 now that's some good Swedish! 18:58:41 dys [n=andreas@95.115.90.169] has joined #lisp 18:58:44 I only know the essentials, like "Jag är naken nu" etc 18:59:11 "Är du naken också" 18:59:28 Jag älsker Kötbullar och potatismus. :P 18:59:35 *mos 18:59:36 "Do you speak English?" 18:59:43 it's my best swedish. 18:59:57 and the answer is usually "yes" 19:00:28 *beach* gets disgusted and goes to bed. 19:00:41 bonne nuit! 19:01:18 metawilm_ [n=willem@g225097102.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:02:01 -!- Kutulu [n=kutulu@66-193-169-28.static.twtelecom.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:02:50 Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:00 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:03:19 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 19:06:14 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.201.24] has joined #lisp 19:07:40 garg. symbolics.com was sold to a domain speculator. :P 19:08:03 URK 19:08:24 via jwz: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Symbolics&diff=310447252&oldid=prev 19:10:11 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:10:27 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2AB5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:11:02 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 19:12:17 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:14:08 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:14:26 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 19:16:14 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:16:50 nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 19:18:00 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:18:13 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 19:18:42 -!- metawilm [n=willem@g225021243.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:18:42 -!- metawilm_ is now known as metawilm 19:21:27 francogrex [n=franco@91.177.136.116] has joined #lisp 19:22:05 Hi I want to show a collegue a very simple example that in CL you can embed languages even his favorite (SAS) 19:22:07 dysinger [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:09 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:22:38 go for it 19:22:41 like I would like to type the following code in the interpreter: http://paste.lisp.org/display/86195 19:22:50 xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-150-243.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:05 and have the output sum=12 19:23:09 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C1CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:23:22 -!- xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-150-243.tukw.qwest.net] has left #lisp 19:23:29 sounds like a fun project 19:23:33 can anyone help or give hints 19:23:37 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit ["Verlassend"] 19:23:46 my hint is: don't advocate features you can't back up with your own actions. 19:23:53 haha 19:23:56 Xach=just a simple demonstration 19:24:12 Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 19:24:15 Xach: my own actions are one thing but can it be done is another 19:24:16 First write a parser that parses that language into sexps 19:24:20 francogrex: that's almost python... i have to plug my clpython :) 19:24:41 metawilm: Oh! Hello. Nice demo at ILC. 19:24:50 thanks! 19:25:14 we didn't meet, but i think i saw you :) 19:26:00 tcr: ok, don't even need the whole language just that piece 19:26:42 metawilm: Do you know if in python there can be legally appear ? 19:26:55 3j 19:27:10 that's subsumed by , obviously 19:27:21 ah ok 19:27:33 -!- MinorityOfOne is now known as Elench 19:27:36 I hacked the lexer to simply allow for 1mm, or 1 mm 19:28:17 The nice thing about that is that READ-KIND is a generic function so I can just plug in an :around method for my company 19:28:24 i can't think of any other situation 19:28:26 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C1CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:11 sounds elegant 19:29:50 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@99.41.51.206] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:29:52 I know have to allow for dimensional numbers in the numeric tower. That's just adding methods for py-+ etc, or anything else, too? 19:29:57 s/know/now/ 19:30:45 francogrex: write a compiler that takes your source language and outputs CL code... then you can make a simple reader macro, and BANG!... robert's your fathers brother. 19:31:16 for most things defining py-+ etc is enough, but then you miss lower-level accesses like: x.__add__(y) 19:31:34 as long as users type "x + y" and don't use the __magic__ methods you are safe 19:31:46 Ah, is there something like define-python-method? 19:31:53 ok I found something from pascal: http://coding.derkeiler.com/pdf/Archive/Lisp/comp.lang.lisp/2007-06/msg01128.pdf 19:31:55 def-py-method 19:31:58 it can help 19:32:06 great 19:35:18 -!- ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has left #lisp 19:35:52 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:37:39 -!- sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 19:38:23 pjb: what is (split-sequence:split-sequence) ? which package is it one of yours? 19:38:29 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:39:09 minion: split-sequence 19:39:10 split-sequence: SPLIT-SEQUENCE (formerly known as PARTITION) is a member of the Common Lisp Utilities family of programs, designed by community consensus. http://www.cliki.net/split-sequence 19:39:29 stassats: thx 19:39:49 oddly, "by community consensus" doesn't make me feel good 19:40:43 they give this example: (split-sequence:SPLIT-SEQUENCE #\Space "A stitch in time saves nine.")=> ("A" "stitch" "in" "time" "saves" "nine.") 19:41:01 I have cl-ppcre maybe i can use that instead 19:41:19 francogrex: many libs require split-sequence, i'd suggest to just install it 19:41:25 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:41:31 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-24-147-105-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:41:36 stassats: why doesn't make you feel good 19:41:50 metawilm: well ok why not, i'll install it 19:42:43 -!- metawilm [n=willem@g225097102.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 19:42:54 metawilm [n=willem@g225097102.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:42:55 -!- metawilm [n=willem@g225097102.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 19:43:01 francogrex: because it's not easy to reach consensus among lisp programmers 19:43:17 metawilm [n=willem@g225097102.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:44:13 well it seems for once it's done 19:44:20 at least 19:45:23 lisptastic [n=user@adsl-234-145-13.bgk.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:04 Hello ya'll I got a question about prefix keys in emacs you might be able to help me with. 19:46:29 It's a simple question... 19:46:32 lisptastic: #emacs is the best place for emacs questions 19:46:32 lisptastic: #emacs is over there --> 19:46:35 split-sequence.lisp: I'm sure the will but there is also #emacs room here 19:47:07 Asked there, nobody knew, I think it's a question that a better knowledge of lisp would help with. 19:47:12 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@86.203.24.227] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:47:25 that was lisptastic: instead of "split-sequence.lisp" wrong copy paste as usual 19:47:48 lisptastic: this is a channel about common lisp, not emacs lisp, which has it's own channel. If they don't know in #emacs, we probably won't know here. 19:48:06 Ne'er mind then. 19:48:10 -!- lisptastic [n=user@adsl-234-145-13.bgk.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 19:48:12 its 19:48:18 minion: thwap to drewc 19:48:19 drewc: please see thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 19:48:22 lisptastic: it happens sometimes that the experts are asleep and they won't reply 19:48:45 try there again another time 19:49:08 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:49:30 be patient, i know #emacs (like many other freenode irc channels) are dormant even with many people in 19:49:48 lisptastic [n=user@adsl-234-145-13.bgk.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:06 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:52:32 I want to assign "C-~ 1 |" and "C-~ 1 1 |" to different functions in emacs. 19:52:51 I think it's impossible because of how prefix-keys work. 19:52:52 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.201.24] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:53:38 obviously some people don't want to listen 19:53:49 Figured it was worth a shot. 19:54:12 was it? 19:54:20 It's the internet man. 19:54:26 lisptastic: #emacs is your channel 19:54:39 -!- lisptastic [n=user@adsl-234-145-13.bgk.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 19:55:10 phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 19:58:48 bye 19:58:56 -!- serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-144-70.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 20:01:01 i'm sure with the help of what pjb had previously written I can hack some SAS parser at least for that simple example but i'm sure it will take me days! 20:02:36 francogrex: so why do it? 20:03:43 minion: memo for lichtblau: There are updated on named-readtables waiting for your pull. It includes some allegro-specific fixes. 20:03:43 Remembered. I'll tell lichtblau when he/she/it next speaks. 20:04:00 S11001001: same goes to you 20:04:23 dysinger_ [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:55 greetings tcr, a few days ago rt iterators were committed to ccl 20:05:25 metawilm: for some distorted masochsitic fun 20:05:57 by really, how much would it take you (exoerts) here; i'm sure someone would hack it in like 10 mlinutes 20:06:03 francogrex: might be more fun and useful to write a ruby compiler :) 20:06:33 just download clpython and give it a go... than i can brag about one more user ;) 20:06:42 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:07:01 metawilm: I think I tried; is it your creation? 20:07:27 yep 20:07:54 -!- benny [n=benny@87.122.20.66] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:07:56 metawilm: cool; but i think something didn't go rightin the installation; i'll try again now 20:07:59 benny [n=benny@i577A1442.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:08:13 sure, let me know if you get errors 20:09:10 metawilm: thanks i will now, but i think the errors were not related to clpython at all but to the ecl implementation installing it on winXP 20:09:21 i'll let you know in a short while 20:10:00 francogrex: i've never run it on ecl, so i don 20:10:09 't think it will immediately work 20:10:29 metawilm: i'll try also on sbcl i habe it as well 20:10:58 francogrex: in sbcl on mac os x it works fine 20:11:05 -!- metawilm [n=willem@g225097102.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 20:11:13 metawilm [n=willem@g225097102.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:11:13 -!- metawilm [n=willem@g225097102.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 20:11:33 metawilm [n=willem@g225097102.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:11:52 *metawilm* keeps hitting alt-w in the wrong window 20:12:21 -!- ski [n=slj@c-9011e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:13:02 metawilm: closer-to-mop I think was what didn't let it work well 20:13:28 closer-mop that was 20:13:30 francogrex: you mean, in ecl? 20:13:58 ski [n=slj@c-9011e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:13:59 yes 20:16:36 i'm trying 20:17:28 okay, the web site for closer-mop says "Rudimentary support for ECL added." in version 0.4, which is a while ago 20:17:42 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:41 ok got the error: Cannot externalize object # 20:18:50 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:18:56 (RETRY) Retry performing # on #. 20:19:02 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:07 Broken at SI:BYTECODES.CLPYTHON.PARSER>> 20:19:14 that was it 20:19:44 francogrex: hmm, that's a serious implementation limitation 20:19:46 Yay! 20:20:16 -!- dysinger_ [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [] 20:20:16 if you really want to try to make it work on ECL (probably there are many more problems along the road) 20:20:19 I don't agree with "serious", though 20:20:33 replace #.*package* by (find-package :clpython.parser) 20:20:58 You're misusing read-time evaluation way too much anyway :P 20:21:24 i got that (intern .. #.*package*) trick from erik naggum, pretty neat ;) 20:21:57 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 20:22:19 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:22:42 tcr: i think a package can be externalized as `(load-time-value (find-package ,(package-name pkg))) 20:22:53 as identity is based on name 20:23:48 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:24:13 ok but before that let me try on my sbcl 20:24:30 good idea 20:25:06 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-106-227.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:25:06 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-14-80.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:25:08 tcr: you don't like ECL? YOU SEEMED TO rejoice when you found out it has some limitation 20:25:56 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:26:04 I don't like people who put words into my mouth. 20:26:50 metawilm: debugger invoked on a ASDF:COMPILE-FAILED: erred while invoking # on # 20:26:59 I also don't like people who cannot follow context. I actually "defended" ECL. 20:27:22 tcr: ok take a xanax or something 20:27:43 one of asdf gripes, not seeing the actual error 20:28:04 weirdo: Yeah plz fix 20:28:15 -!- ski [n=slj@c-9011e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:28:15 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-13-117.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:28:22 i heard the asdf maintainer is pretty reactionary when it comes to accepting features 20:28:31 so all hopes lie within Fare to release xcvb 20:30:13 weirdo: whta's that? xcvb? 20:30:13 That's so 2001-2008. I think that situation has changed recently. This issue is not a feature anyway. 20:30:52 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 20:30:54 minion: xcvb? 20:30:55 xcvb: XCVB, an eXtensible Component Verifier and Builder for Lisp is an attempt to replace asdf. http://www.cliki.net/xcvb 20:31:16 tcr, did daniel barlow become responsive suddenly, or did it get a new maintainer? 20:31:18 francogrex: please use the cliki or the google for questions like that ;) 20:31:30 ski [n=slj@c-9011e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:31:37 weirdo: gwking and rpg sort of took it over 20:31:51 who owns minion? 20:33:13 stating "replace X" as the main goal is a bit lame isn't it? 20:34:09 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.123.86.233] has joined #lisp 20:34:20 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 20:34:30 luis, it's not when X = ASDF 20:34:40 meh. 20:34:51 hello 20:35:39 fe[nl]ix: hi 20:35:43 fe[nl]ix: long time no see 20:35:58 hello v0|d ;) 20:35:59 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:19 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:37:41 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.24.150] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:37:53 Can you access another slot in a slot's initform? 20:38:05 and if so is the order specified? 20:38:08 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:41:02 -!- hohum [n=dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:41:16 hohum [n=dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:56 tcr: nope 20:44:07 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 20:44:12 tcr: you could possibly write a metaclass that does it for you, though (hahahah) 20:44:31 weirdo, what do you expect from XCVB? 20:44:53 If it's more user-friendliness than ASDF, you might be disappointed :-( 20:45:01 Fare, not stepping on people's pet-peeves 20:45:18 I'm already stepping on a few people's pet peeves. 20:45:31 And though I have plans to alleviate, I have no resources for these plans. 20:45:40 i don't customize ASDF that much, but i get really disillusioned when it doesn't compile a system A that depends on system B when B was changed and recompiled 20:46:14 or when i can't :force a single system, only the whole dependency graph 20:46:24 I honestly don't know how you guys put up with this ASDF stuff, it seems so archaic compared to everything else 20:46:31 benny` [n=benny@i577A1442.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:46:38 weirdo, this part XCVB gets right 20:46:49 I went to a talk about ASDF at a lisp users group a few weeks ago and kept on thinking 'wow, even Java ant is better than this' 20:46:50 Fare, which one it doesn't (heh, heh)? 20:46:54 though "right" here might mean you're in for 30 minutes of recompilation 20:47:11 recompiling dependencies faithfully -- check 20:47:22 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1442.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:47:30 :forcing a single system -- nope 20:47:36 Fare, good enough; i once got bitten after a test system didn't recompile because the tested system is just a giant big macro 20:48:01 Fare, can you make it hackable, so stuff like :forcing a single system can be implemented using your external protocol? 20:48:04 -!- konr__ is now known as konr 20:48:08 -!- konr is now known as konr|afk 20:48:46 like, provide a function to compile something, provide functions to introspect on systems and dependency graph and the users can write the rest 20:49:09 -!- jck [i=cee63022@gateway/web/freenode/x-hkluffqbpgrzgejt] has quit ["Page closed"] 20:51:21 Pepe__ [n=ppjet@78.114.110.177] has joined #lisp 20:52:14 slava: ASDF works reasonably well and it's convenient to use from within the working image 20:52:41 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229078004.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 20:53:43 metawilm: in which file would I need to replace #.*package* specifically? 20:53:51 i us (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op sys :force t) to force recompile of a single system, works fine for me 20:54:14 asdf/asdf-install sucks when you have a fresh image/install and want to pull in packages with a whole lot of dependencies 20:54:25 francogrex: everywhere! and the replacement depends on the (in-package ..) form at the top of the file 20:54:29 weirdo, not sure what exactly you want. 20:54:47 weirdo, xcvb is meant to be deterministic 20:55:22 fe[nl]ix, with XCVB the idea isn't that you compile an XCVB system into your SLIME image, but that you run SLIME on top of your XCVB image 20:55:22 Fare: which implementations do you target? 20:55:56 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:56:00 metawilm, I test mostly with SBCL. Used to test with clisp and did some testing with CCL. Haven't done much implementation-specific since. 20:56:27 porting should be straightforward, except for the (mostly unimplemented) replacement for WITH-COMPILATION-UNIT. 20:56:43 heow [n=user@colo-69-31-43-106.pilosoft.com] has joined #lisp 20:56:54 also, a2x might possibly only work with SBCL. 20:57:05 i.e. automatic ASDF to XCVB conversion 20:57:35 jewel_: asdf-install has little to do with ASDF.. conflating the two would be missing the point of this converation entirely :) 20:57:41 (because it relies on ASDF-DEPENDENCY-GROVEL which itself is only tested with SBCL) 20:58:03 drewc, will it be renamed xcvb-install or cl-install? :) 20:58:04 http://armedbear.org/abcl.html 20:58:06 oops 20:58:12 Fare, maybe, but a meta-system-protocol would be nice 20:58:23 Fare: what about the cfasl extension for sbcl, is it not required that other implementations also have that? 20:58:26 you mean, PLaneT ? 20:58:44 it's not required. And you can disable it for sbcl, too. 20:58:56 ok, good 20:58:59 But that's another reason why you want to be careful with EVAL-WHEN's 20:59:17 what's PLaneT? 20:59:31 weirdo: ask the PLT scheme guys 20:59:36 ok 20:59:44 thought you referred to me with that msg 20:59:48 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 21:00:28 weirdo, it's the proof that in Lisp (extended meaning) you can do a package distribution system that "just works". 21:00:34 (mostly) 21:01:24 drewc, perhaps I have missed the point, but you can't deny that it sucks to wait for packages to be pulled in and compiled one-by-one 21:01:47 Fare, i kinda' like freebsd ports 21:01:59 though it's not lispy 21:02:14 it's even meta to the extent BSD make can be 21:02:32 make sucks, btw 21:02:52 make is good for what make is good for 21:03:07 for anything else it's the wrong answer 21:03:40 guaqua: what you say is good for what what you say is good for 21:04:42 hmm freebsd ports are nice nonetheless 21:04:45 Fare: exactly :) ...i've found it to be good for building applications written in c (probably for also programs written in some assembly language) 21:04:52 what's standard function naming practice for defining operators for a new numeric type? 21:05:00 they're very declarative and stuff can be computed, not just hardcoded 21:05:11 so it fares well for a make script 21:05:31 Fare: what's wrong with make? 21:05:43 slava, everything that's nice in it is non-portable 21:05:46 make would be a good starting point if it wasn't for M4, which i read somewhere, always shows promise but really has so little power that you will just keep writing and writing code and never get anything done 21:05:53 for all intents and purposes the only make that matters is GNU make 21:05:57 slava, same as with all things with a half-baked DSL in them. 21:06:14 how about a lisp DSL that compiles to portable make(1)? 21:06:17 i mean makefiles 21:06:28 conditionals are horrible, for one. Quoting oh my. 21:06:34 guaqua: M4 has nothing to do with make, GNU autotools use make but they suck 21:06:40 weirdo, you mean, xcvb? 21:06:55 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 21:07:26 I maintain large makefiles. It's a headache. 21:07:38 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-102-243.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:07:38 but at least, it's somewhat possible. 21:07:52 slava: makefiles don't use M4? 21:08:09 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 21:08:18 guaqua, nope 21:08:29 okay, my bad 21:08:56 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:09:36 after reading about autotools history i was under the impression that make was using it in some form, too. apparently i was wrong 21:09:43 -!- benny` is now known as benny 21:10:33 Fare, not xcvb 21:10:40 for building C programs 21:10:46 use OMake 21:10:50 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:11:50 -!- phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 21:12:53 http://wiki.apidesign.org/index.php?title=LibraryReExportIsNPComplete&useskin=monobook 21:12:54 hmm btw did you see how emacs implements lexical scoping? 21:13:08 it uses an uninterned symbol 21:13:09 does it? 21:13:11 very clever 21:13:14 yes, asdf-install is not great IMO... so i don't use it. I do use ASDF however. 21:13:28 the references to the free variable get replaced with it 21:13:34 well it's the usual trick for alphaconversion. 21:13:39 of course it doesn't do cell reintroduction (or whatever it was called) 21:14:28 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:15:52 asdf-install is similar to installation of R packages from the various repositories: it gets you all dependecies. they are very well organized 21:21:01 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:21:31 -!- heow [n=user@colo-69-31-43-106.pilosoft.com] has left #lisp 21:22:09 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 21:22:53 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 21:25:51 -!- GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:27:16 GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:00 benny` [n=benny@i577A1442.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:29:10 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1442.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:29:18 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-207.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:29:37 do you think it's hard to make a compiler for one language compared to another? 21:29:52 I mean a machine-code compiler 21:30:43 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [] 21:31:52 because the SAS institute got loads of money and they would profit from having such compiler but they never did it 21:34:10 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:35:04 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 21:35:54 amnesiac__ [n=amnesiac@charanda.shochu.sandino.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:28 -!- amnesiac__ is now known as amnesiac 21:38:16 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:38:35 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C1CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:38:36 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.201.24] has joined #lisp 21:38:58 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 21:39:13 -!- rread [n=rread@98.234.219.222] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:40:16 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-jjdmhfelcaberjkx] has joined #lisp 21:40:28 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:41:27 francogrex, I don't understand the question. 21:41:30 also for python, they have a lot of trouble it seems 21:42:03 to make a machine-code compiler (i don't think because they're lazy or stupid) 21:42:09 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:42:14 The hard thing is not compiling. It's being able to do the static analyzes based on which you can do interesting program transformations. 21:42:26 they got naza and google supporting them with $$$ 21:42:34 money to do what kind of compiler? 21:43:00 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:43:21 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 21:43:30 anything that compiles the languge to machine code like gcc or sbcl-python (not to confuse with the language python here) etc 21:43:34 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 21:44:22 once again, compiling to machine code isn't hard. 21:44:38 francogrex: how would you compile "x = a + b" ? 21:44:41 it's just about macroexpanding your interpreter 21:44:45 (in python) 21:45:12 metawilm: no idea! how? 21:45:22 no idea either! ;) 21:45:53 push b; push a; push 2 #|arity|#; push +; call find-and-run-method; push x; push 2;push =; call find-and-run-method 21:46:30 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:46:30 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:46:34 that's byte code, pretty much resembling cpython i guess 21:46:42 now to analyze things statically... or to do interesting things dynamically like psyco 21:46:53 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 21:47:12 metawilm, you can always macroexpand your bytecode into machine code. 21:47:20 statically, or dynamically. 21:47:36 right... but my point was, the beef is in "find-and-run-method" 21:48:00 you can't make that an asm add, unless you are sure of the types 21:48:18 metawilm: but isn't true that python guys had trouble making a machine code compiler? 21:48:35 do they have a good one now? 21:48:36 francogrex: not sure what you are referring to 21:49:17 there's shedskin, which compiled a subset of python (excluding the most dynamic features) to C++ 21:49:36 -!- amnesiac_ [n=amnesiac@charanda.shochu.sandino.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:50:07 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:50:37 ok but to asm? by the way what does sbcl compile to? 21:50:57 francogrex: in the end? directly to native opcodes 21:50:58 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:51:02 directly machine code? 21:51:05 ok 21:51:17 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 21:51:28 -!- benny` is now known as benny 21:51:31 would one be able to have oython compile directly to opcode? 21:52:34 clpython running on sbcl, compiles python functions to assembly 21:53:07 metawilm: don't rub it in, I feel bad already i can't insyall clpython :P 21:53:37 if you get an error in sbcl, let me know... unless it's a third-party library that you're missing 21:53:41 metawilm, and my point is again: the difficulty is not the "machine language" part. It's the "sensible semantics" part. 21:54:48 Why am I getting 'bad dimension in array type' for a simple-array with dimensions (+a-defparamed-value+) 21:54:53 ? 21:55:19 the symbol is quoted? 21:55:24 Fare: please explain about (lacking?) "sensible semantics" 21:55:29 Fare: no, it's not. 21:55:52 Fare: if I quote it, I get "bad dimension in array type: QUOTE" 21:55:53 Ralith, please paste a "working" example 21:56:11 lisppaste: url 21:56:17 er, what was that syntax 21:56:17 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 21:56:20 there we are 21:56:51 The hard thing is not compiling. It's being able to do the static analyzes based on which you can do interesting program transformations. 21:57:12 [Jackal]` [n=jkl2k5@118.95.40.234] has joined #lisp 21:57:39 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:57:48 Ralith pasted "simple-array dimension error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86202 21:57:53 Fare: ^ 21:58:35 Fare: thanks, Python as language is so dynamic that that is pretty hard; but dynamic approaches (inline caches etc) can work pretty well in many cases... it's an area i have not explored much yet 21:59:21 :type `(simple-array vec2 (,+max-manifold-points+)) 21:59:42 metawilm, see psyco. 22:00:00 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1442.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:00:55 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:01:03 Fare: thanks 22:01:05 Fare: right, psyco is often mentioned when it comes to arithmetic speed-ups 22:01:16 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 22:01:39 Ralith: please send paypal money my way :) 22:01:53 Fare: that generates a STYLE-WARNING :/ 22:02:01 undefined type 22:02:10 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 22:02:49 Fare: I don't think it ever actually evaluates that... 22:03:19 it just parses ,+max-manifold-points+ as a symbol 22:04:18 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 22:05:35 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 22:06:36 Ralith, what warning? 22:06:39 benny [n=benny@i577A1442.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:07:00 Fare: undefined type 22:07:04 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:07:05 Ralith: the dimension should be literally there... you could try: :type #.`(simple-array vec2 (,+max-manifold-points+)) but ensure that the constant is available at that point 22:07:07 oh, wait, that's a defstruct. 22:07:11 Well, then you can 22:07:19 metawilm: that sounds promising 22:07:34 (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) ...) around your defparameter 22:07:44 then use #.+max...+ in the simple-array 22:08:02 right, that's simpler 22:08:12 yeah 22:09:34 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:03 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:10:32 -!- francogrex [n=franco@91.177.136.116] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:12:10 How important is it for mcclim's graft to stand for the root window? 22:12:38 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:12:40 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:13:02 Clemens' guided tour says "typically", which hints at a certain degree of freedom in this question.. 22:13:18 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 22:15:15 is cliki only for libraries? because i wanted to create a page with guides of coding style 22:15:29 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:15:43 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C1CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:44 No, Cliki's scope is "anything CL-related". 22:16:52 ok 22:17:03 wish we could share programming tips and lore 22:17:08 anything free 22:17:14 (lisp related) 22:19:04 weirdo: have you seen the document by KMP (and Weiber I think) on this? it was written during the harlequin days, i think, but looked good. 22:19:45 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:20:45 cddr [n=user@5ac9be7d.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 22:21:00 deepfire: Cliki's scope is "links to and resources for *free software* implemented in *Common Lisp*" 22:21:58 how can I persuade SBCL it doesn't need float to pointer conversion in http://pastebin.com/d6f8d7adc 22:21:59 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:22:07 Is there a way to do a C-style union in CL? 22:22:16 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has joined #lisp 22:23:02 housel, sorry, I stand corrected. 22:23:24 Ralith: (defstruct (astronaut (:include person))) 22:23:25 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:23:41 cddr: wat 22:24:00 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 22:24:11 a union just "includes" all the slots from another struct right? 22:24:16 ... 22:24:17 no 22:24:19 not at all 22:24:24 ah sorry 22:24:31 a union is something where two or more names refer to the same place 22:24:46 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:24:49 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:01 e.g. union { int a; int b; } foo; foo.a and foo.b are for all intents and purposes the same 22:25:08 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:25:18 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:25:36 this is most useful when one of the values is a struct, meaning you can refer to subsections of a value in memory or the value as a whole 22:27:10 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.19.165] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:27:23 http://www.cliki.net/Programming%20style 22:27:31 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 22:28:36 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:31:18 cddr: (declaim (inline make-point)) 22:31:22 Ralith, in CL everything is implicitly a C-style union 22:31:29 or do you mean 22:31:37 (deftype foo () (or bar baz)) ? 22:31:47 no on both counts 22:31:57 basically, I want to duplicate: 22:32:24 Ralith pasted "unionness" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86206 22:32:40 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:32:47 Ralith: you want to do bitwise arithmetic by hand there I think 22:33:07 at the very least your code is endian-dependent and common lisp won't really expose any features that can observe endianness 22:33:23 slava: since the entire point of the union there is to speed things up by not dealing with each value individually, that's not an acceptable solution. 22:33:57 a case-specific solution might be a way to simply compare the values two structs all at once 22:34:02 the values of* 22:34:25 rather than manually doing (and (= (foo-bar a) (foo-bar b)) ...) 22:34:44 Ralith, use LDB and ASH for bit fiddling 22:34:49 Ralith, that's crazy and not well-typed 22:34:54 weirdo: read up. I don't want to do bit fiddling. 22:35:05 if you want to do bitdiddling, use C structs via CFFI. 22:35:08 DPB is kinda' useless since LOGIOR is present 22:35:09 ffs 22:35:12 you guys aren't paying any attention 22:35:13 Ralith: you're going to have to treat your value as a single integer, and do bit fiddling to get the int8s out 22:35:17 bitfiddling is NOT a solution 22:35:21 Ralith, then write a macro/function that does :) 22:35:25 Ralith: common lisp doesn't have the features you want, sorry 22:35:35 slava: there's no way to batch-compare two structs' slots? 22:35:53 Ralith, you can write your accessors with ldb and dpb, indeed 22:35:55 Ralith, but you can store a (simple-array (integer 0 255)) inside that value cell 22:35:56 Ralith: not to my knowledge 22:36:08 or you can store (unsigned-byte 32) 22:36:19 weirdo: 22:36:21 15:39:03 < Ralith> bitfiddling is NOT a solution 22:36:29 it's not bit fiddling 22:36:30 look: 22:36:34 (defmacro (foo x) (ldb (byte 0 8) (bar x))) 22:36:38 slava: okay, I'll just do manual comparison I guess. 22:36:41 Ralith: perhaps do what Fare suggested and use C structures via FFI? 22:36:44 (setf (foo *x*) 5) 22:36:45 you want 4-element struct *or* an integer 22:36:47 that might not be very efficeint either 22:36:49 indeed. 22:36:59 so make it like this: 22:37:10 weirdo: no, I want a 4-element struct *and* a means by which to rapidly compare it to other structs of the same type. 22:37:23 weirdo: one way to achieve this is to have a 4-element struct *and* an integer. 22:37:28 Ralith, EQUALP :) 22:37:28 it is important that it is both at once. 22:37:34 Ralith, write accessors. 22:37:37 compare accessors. 22:37:38 weirdo: equalp works on structs? 22:37:41 Ralith, it does 22:37:54 Fare: that is the undesirable approach I described minutes ago. 22:37:56 but it compares strings case-insensitively 22:37:59 so it might be inadequate 22:38:00 Ralith: use C++ 22:38:02 *``Erik* notes that C lacks the ability to really batch check like that, as it can re-order or pad as the compiler sees fit... 22:38:13 weirdo: no strings involved, so that's okay. 22:38:18 Ralith, are you new to lisp? 22:38:25 not at this point, no. 22:38:33 in C you can't safely compare structs of different types anyway. 22:38:35 I'm just porting performance-sensitive C++ code as conservatively as possible. 22:38:38 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:38:40 Fare: I don't want to do that. 22:38:45 I want to compare structs of the *same* type. 22:38:49 like Fare says, because of alignment 22:39:00 then use equalp 22:39:06 yes, I got that. 22:39:36 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:39:37 stassats: that didn't seem to work, I still get the compiler warning 22:39:41 and IF you find that it's too slow for you... change internal representation, add redundancy, change accessors, synthetize the 32-bit word for comparison, blah, blah. 22:39:41 buy you can use: (defstruct (foo (:type vector)) ...) btw 22:39:45 or even a specialized vector 22:39:58 cddr: then you are doing it wrong 22:40:03 so it doesn't have to be a struct with all the inefficiency it entails 22:40:10 I'm pretty sure its safe to do what Ralith is doing in C with unions 22:40:13 oh mean 22:40:18 oh i wait 22:40:25 EQUALP on structs is probably very fast 22:40:26 there are no issues with alignment or anything here 22:40:28 slava, for some definition of "safe". 22:40:28 braino on my part 22:40:33 weirdo: equalp on structs is just eq isn't it 22:40:43 slava, it's not, equalp compares deeply 22:40:44 Fare: 'always works' 22:40:44 Fare: perfectly safe. 22:40:50 stassats: got it, think maybe I had to re-compile the defstruct 22:40:57 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 22:41:09 but it's fact, since it grabs the underlying sequence and doesn't have to do SLOT-VALUE, just EQUALP on the vector 22:41:15 s/fact/fast 22:41:18 sorry, it's really late 22:41:24 slava, until you port to some bigendian 64bit processor where uint32 is actually 64-bit. 22:41:29 Fare, well, you can assert sizeof is equal 22:41:37 or where uint8 is 32-bit. 22:41:41 Fare: listen to yourself >.< 22:41:41 why would that happen? 22:41:54 what if you run your common lisp code on a CL implementation where the maximum array size is 3? 22:41:57 weirdo, that you can. 22:41:59 Fare: uint32 is explicitly defined as an unsigned 32 bit integer. 22:42:02 or a CL implementation with no garbage collector 22:42:08 stassats: nice! That cut the time down by a factor of 4 22:42:18 Fare, but what's the point? it's like "this c code is non-portable, it won't run on genera" 22:42:20 no one uses that 22:42:25 Fare: if it's ever something else on any supported platform, the library is at fault. 22:42:32 i mean, char foo[5]; &char[5]; 22:42:45 i expect that to work everywhere, no matter what the standard says 22:42:53 Fare: if it was using things like 'unsigned char' and 'unsigned int' instead of explicitly sized types you'd be correct, but it's very obviously not. 22:43:13 unless you're doing embedded, sizeof(int) == 4 always anyway 22:43:20 and sizeof(char) == 1 22:43:29 Ralith, if you want super duper low-level control, use super-duper low-level control. 22:43:35 Ralith, inttypes.h doesn't assert that types must be equal of this size, only that they're at least as big 22:43:42 Ralith, you can do it in Lisp, it's just not included in defstruct. 22:43:48 weirdo: these aren't even from those headers :P 22:43:51 code must work like sizeof char == 1 but that isn't true for all of inttypes.h 22:43:52 they're defined by the lib. 22:44:08 weirdo, at least with your assert, things will fail early (maybe in Make) before messy bugs appear. 22:44:12 weirdo: you can tell because they don't use the inttypes.h naming scheme 22:44:38 Ralith, i don't remember c very well, i can't go to c anymore, not after lisp 22:44:39 weirdo, Fare: anyway, it sounds like equalp is the ideal lispy version anyway. 22:44:45 hehe 22:44:52 C is still necessary for many things. 22:44:58 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 22:45:02 like binaries that don't take up several MB of disk space 22:45:10 lisp doesn't do binaries 22:45:15 lisp does images 22:45:19 *Ralith* shrugs 22:45:27 run everything in the same image, that's the Lisp Way 22:45:28 at the end of the day you're still distributing a binary 22:45:36 actually i'm not 22:45:36 in any case, the point is -- you can't have both superduperlowlevel access *and* use portable Lisp stuff -- but you're welcome to write a library bridging the gap with CFFI or such. 22:45:36 unfortunately that's not the Real World right now. 22:45:39 i'm distributing a system 22:45:49 weirdo: some lisp implementations can deploy small binaries 22:45:52 anyone who writes common lisp for users is. 22:46:01 slava, yes they can, but it's not a critical feature 22:46:03 slava: what's ECL's image overhead? 22:46:08 weirdo: I think it is, that's why I don't use CL :) 22:46:23 Ralith: no idea, but ECL is interpreted so I've never looked at it seriously 22:46:25 slava, besides small binaries mean no docstrings, lambda sources, no EVAL, no COMPILE 22:46:25 what lisp do you use, then? 22:46:31 possibly sealed classes 22:46:33 what's the fun in that? 22:46:37 weirdo: not every app needs to EVAL at runtime 22:46:40 that's very un-lispy 22:46:43 if you don't, you can save space and not ship the compiler 22:46:47 weirdo: it doesn't necessarily mean that 22:46:56 slava, only until it doesn't break, and needs hotpatching 22:47:01 weirdo: it could mean just only including those in the image when the program actually uses them. 22:47:07 weirdo: most programs don't need to EVAL code at runtime 22:47:07 i can hotpatch everything 22:47:10 Ralith, INTERN 22:47:23 weirdo: ? 22:47:26 weirdo: having the choice of not shipping the compiler is a good thing 22:47:31 weirdo: remember, lack of a feature is not a feature 22:47:35 slava, uh, you can compile to C with ECL as well as interpret. 22:47:49 Ralith, because of INTERN "if uses them" reduces to the halting problem 22:48:07 odamn 22:48:08 weirdo: most programs don't use INTERN 22:48:10 well, let the user decide 22:48:17 slava, you shipped spreadsheet software. a user found a bug which made it all blow up. debugger appears. he calls you. what do you do? 22:48:21 slava, correction -- most don't use it *at runtime* 22:48:24 it seems to me that it would be pretty effective to allow the user to opt out of any given image features with some optimization declarations or something 22:48:27 a) provide him with an expression that fixes the bug when pasted into the listener 22:48:30 Fare: yeah oops 22:48:43 b) tell him that his data in an unsaved document is lost forever, like TECO in line noise 22:48:54 weirdo: most users would prefer just getting a new binary :P 22:49:02 weirdo: c) implement auto-save... 22:49:02 cddr: by the way, you could name your function make-pointer and have :constructor %make-pointer for a structure 22:49:09 I wouldn't ask the user to enter a form in the listener to fix a bug 22:49:17 slava: what lisp do you use? 22:49:20 scheme? 22:49:22 Ralith, it would be actually useful, if automated 22:49:33 d) prove your program correct before you ship it. 22:49:34 it's probably already been done in commercial software 22:49:36 weirdo: it would be useful done manually too, albeit less. 22:49:57 weirdo: and support for doing so manually is the first step to automating it. 22:50:03 Ralith, debugger appears. user has a button "hotpatch the image". he clicks, patch downloads by its own, the bug disappears. 22:50:18 Ralith, someone did it with DIFF-SEXP 22:50:20 don't remember who 22:50:25 weirdo: this is all moot because nobody has shipped anything like this 22:50:29 weirdo: that behavior could be trivially reimplemented without EVAL 22:50:33 there is no spreadsheet in lisp anyway 22:50:46 Ralith, like how? serializing actual machine code? 22:51:03 weirdo: just because lisp does things one way doesn't automatically mean its the best way 22:51:19 slava, what's the better way? i hope it's not unix way 22:51:22 weirdo: download new binary, replace existing binary, save state to temp file, restart, open temp file. 22:51:25 because it's definitely not the unix way 22:51:36 I dunno, I like the idea of stand-alone binaries 22:51:46 and i don't like writing stuff like this: 22:51:49 stand-alone binaries are a necessary reality of the real world atm. 22:51:51 having an interactive environment for development is nice, but you don't want to expose the end-user to all that complexiy 22:52:00 /bin/cp -- "$file1" "$file2" 22:52:02 they want a double-clickable app, not an asdf system that they can load into their listener 22:52:18 piping abstraction is totally broken for e.g. newlines in file names 22:52:21 weirdo: shell scripts don't have anything to do with this 22:52:22 even ps(1) breaks on it! 22:52:24 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 22:52:26 you could use lisp for your scripting tasks 22:52:36 assuming your lisp of choice has fast startup time, good posix integration and so on 22:52:45 slava: it's important to bear in mind that ease of use and a single lisp image per user are not mutually exclusive. 22:52:48 standalone programs are hard to customize 22:52:54 just nobody's made it feasible yet 22:52:55 just look what people greenspunned into C IRC clients 22:53:07 C IRC clients are not the state of the art in software engineering either 22:53:07 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:53:13 persoanlly I see no reason to script an IRC client at all 22:53:16 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:53:59 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:54:31 and yet almost every irc client has scripting capability for some reason. :) 22:54:53 well, some people take IRC pretty seriously 22:54:58 slava: I drop joins/parts/quits 22:55:05 e.g. the one I'm using supports scripting in perl, python, and tcl, at least 22:55:19 I use irssi, which is scriptable with perl or something 22:55:30 I find this is more often because IRC client authors like hackability than because there's actually much call for it. 22:55:49 scripting in an editor is more essential 22:55:51 also, before erc got built-in nickserv, I wrote a nickserv responder myself 22:55:57 shipping an editor with an interactive environment and compiler makes a lot of sense to me 22:56:04 but not, say, a music player 22:56:11 or IM client 22:57:03 it's still useful to have it there 22:57:07 IM is a relatively boring concept, relatively to what is associated with IRC. 22:57:09 just to varying degrees. 22:57:22 i use ERC, which is modifiable in elisp 22:57:30 IM is IRC through a low-pass filter. 22:57:46 bitlbee! 22:58:01 I don't think I'd ever convince my family and non-technical friends to switch to IRC instead of IM :) 22:58:03 bitlbee doesn't support Gadu-Gadu :( 22:58:08 amnesiac_ [n=amnesiac@charanda.shochu.sandino.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:15 it at least it didn't when i used it 22:58:43 Supported protocols 22:58:43 right now are: Jabber, MSN, OSCAR (AIM/ICQ) and Yahoo. 22:59:13 as I understand it, most people prefer to write long, complete sentences on IM, so they might be bothered by the <510-char limit 22:59:26 that' some pretty damned long sentences 22:59:28 that's* 22:59:42 -!- seangrov` [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:00:00 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:00:04 seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:00:07 Gadu-Gadu (Polish for "chit-chat"; commonly known as GG or gg) is a Polish instant messaging client using a proprietary protocol. Gadu-Gadu is the most popular IM service in Poland, with over 7.8 million registered accounts and approximately 6.5 million users online daily. 23:00:13 well in ERC you can split into multiple lines without sending it when typing the line break 23:00:15 that explains why it is not supported. 23:00:26 v0|d, there's libgadu.so 23:00:31 as well as a description of the protocol 23:00:36 btw, 6.5 million online daily doesnt make sense to me? 23:00:39 As far as I'm concerned, non-irc IM is best done via finch (console counterpart to pidgin) in a screen session. 23:01:02 i know it sucks, but 3/4 of my roster list uses it 23:01:15 -!- [Jackal]` [n=jkl2k5@118.95.40.234] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:01:37 when i use pdigin/gaim/msn etc i feel very unproductive. 23:01:49 v0|d, if it's really 6 million, it's one-fourth of the country 23:01:50 every message interrupts somehow. 23:02:04 SB-INT:SIMPLE-READER-PACKAGE-ERROR on #: 23:02:04 package "ASDF" not found 23:02:05 v0|d, there's an option for it 23:02:07 [Jackal_] [n=jkl2k5@118.95.40.234] has joined #lisp 23:02:14 after upgrading to 1.0.31, I get that 23:02:14 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:02:15 v0|d, so the new chat doesn't appear and steal focus 23:02:20 any idea what's going on? 23:02:23 mathrick, require 'asdf 23:02:38 mathrick: what are you doing? 23:02:39 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1442.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:02:55 v0|d, "hide new IM conversations" 23:03:14 stassats: it's in my .sbclrc, ASDF customisation 23:03:18 mathrick, you probably built in a custom prefix 23:03:21 worked fine with 1.0.21 23:03:27 and didn't specify it in the environment 23:03:31 weirdo: nope, debian package 23:03:43 you sure it got the proper SBCL_HOME? 23:03:45 slava: perhaps this is very US-centric of me, but I don't really understand how a country-specific *wire protocol* can catch on on the net without something weird going on in that country 23:03:51 and what happens when you do (require 'asdf)? 23:04:00 weirdo: it works 23:04:08 I just never needed to do that before 23:04:16 S11001001: what wire protocol? 23:04:19 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit ["Migration..."] 23:04:41 er, that question was for weirdo 23:04:51 S11001001: I assure you no-one has marketed GG as a wire protocol 23:04:58 btw, old Gadu-Gadu protocol was apparently a bastardised version of HTTP 23:05:16 -!- [Jackal_] is now known as [Jackal] 23:05:21 "I don't understand how the *wire protocol* for ICQ could've caught on without something weird going on"\ 23:05:26 S11001001, it started when ICQ was dominant 23:05:27 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:05:40 and ICQ was apparently too hard to use for clueless newbies 23:05:44 and the protocol is total crap! 23:05:49 it is 23:05:53 heh 23:06:01 it uses latin2 with no option to change it 23:06:10 the app itself is also crap and infinitely annoying 23:06:12 the new protocol probably is related to XMPP :D 23:06:20 no encryption, too. not that it matters, since they regularly provide logs for the pigs 23:06:31 i love how wikipedia monopolizes first search results on google for wikied terminology 23:06:35 i totally forgot about gadu 23:06:38 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 23:06:39 weirdo: I believe kadu/ekg have their own extension for utf-8, but of course no official client supports that 23:06:54 the encoding, then. I never used ICQ, so have no idea what problems it might have 23:07:00 does ekg even support utf-8 terminals? 23:07:08 I think so 23:07:13 Is it possible to use defmethod/defgeneric with non-class types? 23:07:23 S11001001: protocols catch on because apps do 23:07:32 Ralith: yes 23:07:32 Ralith, no 23:07:36 i mean 23:07:43 you can rewrite the whole specializer stuff 23:07:45 Ralith: all types in CL are real types 23:07:45 including caching 23:07:48 mathrick: what is interesting to me is that gadu-gadu caught on specifically in Poland 23:08:02 S11001001: localised software 23:08:06 mathrick, are you sure? 23:08:06 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@charanda.shochu.sandino.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:08:07 Ralith: so you can do things like (defmethod foo ((obj integer))) 23:08:15 integer is a class though 23:08:18 not all types work as specializers 23:08:19 not just a type 23:08:23 S11001001: especially given it started before widespread use of unicode 23:08:24 slava: in CL? 23:08:27 mathrick: I've got a custom type. 23:08:28 a type that is not a class cannot work as a specailizer 23:08:29 no, it's a type 23:08:34 (deftype vec2 () '(simple-array single-float (2))) 23:08:36 ah, unicode 23:08:40 mathrick, (find-class 'integer) 23:08:44 Ralith, you can't do that, sorry 23:08:44 defmethod throws an error trying to specialize on it 23:08:51 damn. 23:08:56 because you can't decide which goes first: (integer 0 10) (integer 5 15) 23:08:56 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 23:08:57 that makes things much less convenient. 23:08:58 weirdo: is it *defined* to be a class though? 23:09:06 mathrick, yes. 23:09:11 it's a builtin class 23:09:19 S11001001: so not only did it work with polish language better than other systems, it was also translated. and the *old* clients were quite small, not like current one :/ 23:09:20 see (CLASS-OF datum) 23:09:21 ok, I thought CL was careful to avoid classes 23:09:31 but I guess that's only the case with things like conditions 23:09:33 so there's no way to overload one function name for different behavior depending on argument types, beyond explicitly checking argument types in the function definition? 23:09:53 Ralith: right 23:09:59 Ralith: typecase and etypecase can help there. there are a lot of useful system classes, too. 23:10:12 Xach: still a bit of a hack :/ 23:10:12 Ralith: TYPECASE is your friend though 23:10:28 Ralith: I don't think so. 23:10:42 Ralith: a hack would be putting it in CL 23:10:51 you can make your own FUNCALLABLE-STANDARD-INSTANCE 23:10:52 because there's no < relation between types like that 23:10:56 and write your own ADD-METHOD 23:11:07 hm 23:11:08 actually 23:11:12 that might not be hard 23:11:14 :D 23:11:21 <3 lisp 23:11:22 it might not be hard, but it might be inefficient 23:11:37 ...or correct, for that matter 23:11:39 well, I bet for this use case at least I could have generated code be basically identical to what I'd write by hand. 23:11:46 also, you have to depend on SUBTYPEP being sane 23:11:52 CLHS doesn't dictate that SUBTYPEP is sane 23:12:01 O.o 23:12:01 heh, howso 23:12:36 subtypep is permitted to return the values false and false only when at least one argument involves one of these type specifiers: and, eql, the list form of function, member, not, or, satisfies, or values. 23:12:39 i thank god that i've read about denotaional semantics 23:12:49 it means that everything else is fair game and it can say "undecidable" 23:13:29 i have no clue how SUBTYPEP is implemented, though 23:13:40 i mean, the implementation in SBCL that is very smart 23:13:42 clhs subetypep 23:13:42 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for subetypep. 23:13:48 clhs subtypep 23:13:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subtpp.htm 23:14:11 wow, i said something and no one corrected me. either i'm right or every competent person is sleeping 23:14:22 i feel kinda' bad at spreading misinformation while trying to help all the time 23:15:10 :P 23:15:32 (i don't mean to say you two are incompetent, i mean to say you haven't done 20 years of lisping like some people here) 23:15:37 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:15:42 yeah 23:15:51 (and if you were that good, i wouldn't be able to correct you or answer your question) 23:15:53 so what's this FUNCALLABLE-STANDARD-INSTANCE thing 23:15:58 hehehe 23:16:26 Ralith, you can make something that can be put in the SYMBOL-FUNCTION cell, you can call FUNCALL on it, it's a subtype of FUNCTION so it works with TYPEP/TYPECASE as well 23:16:42 i haven't found much practical use for it, though 23:16:42 can you point me at some docs 23:16:47 Ralith, read AMOP 23:17:02 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@217-5-249.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:19:51 clhs typecase 23:19:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_tpcase.htm 23:21:17 oh awesome, with new SLDB I don't get a SIGFPE anymore, it drops to LDB immediately 23:21:25 that's gonna be fun to debug 23:23:19 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:24:22 fwiw, I think it's a perfectly good implementation strategy to use a packed data representation (say (unsigned-byte 32), perhaps wrapped in a struct if affordable) and provided accessors in terms of LDB (the place/function, not the low-level debugger). I bet Xach's image libraries do something to that tune 23:25:53 *michaelw* is perhaps late to the discussion, was taking care of the next generation of lisp programmers :D 23:26:07 hehe 23:26:08 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 23:26:52 scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-65-51.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:54 michaelw: yeah, that's reasonable 23:27:02 it might not be quite as efficient as byte memory operations though 23:28:53 slava: unaligned (byte) addressing is not efficient anyway on modern processors, is it? 23:28:59 that was my impression 23:29:37 *Xach* doesn't know much about that sort of thing though 23:30:03 michaelw: surely its more efficient than loading a 32-bit value and masking it 23:31:10 hmm, really? interesting 23:32:53 Xach: any tips for keeping up some level of productivity/one-handed typing/etc.? :) 23:33:08 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-47-39.w90-59.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:34:15 http://www.flickr.com/photos/shannabeane/2781882958/ is what i have to deal with 23:34:43 ha! 23:34:53 the youngun looks like an emacs user already! 23:34:54 :) 23:35:29 (he's a year older now) 23:36:45 slava, masking? 23:37:04 hmm 32-bit values are unboxed on amd64 23:37:22 but LDB is just LOGAND and ASH 23:37:36 michaelw: i find it really hard to get much done after work/food/bathing/storytime/bedtime... 23:37:53 slava: not necessarily, if it's what the CPU essentially does to do unaligned access 23:38:30 michaelw: at that point my brain is mush and i can't concentrate. i really didn't appreciate the free time & energy I had with only one kid (and oh, how much time i wasted when i had zero...) 23:38:45 michaelw: oh, when did your new generation arrive? And congrats in any case 23:38:46 tell me about it... 23:38:54 .qui 23:38:55 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 23:39:47 it's all worth it when erik says "Daddy, I had a dream that I bit you in the foot and you were hopping on one leg and I kicked you over and rolled a boulder over you. It was not a bad dream!" 23:40:15 mathrick: thanks! She arrived on 25th., 23:40:17 heh 23:40:37 *Xach* considers even more Super Mario Brothers rationing 23:43:05 *p_l* considers taking in a runaway or orphan one day instead of having children. You can drop faster into teaching/training/conditioning :> 23:44:45 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:44:54 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 23:46:57 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:13 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:49:13 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:49:57 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 23:50:21 ls 23:50:24 oops 23:51:16 Hi guys, what's cfasl and how does it compare to fasls? 23:51:31 it includes compile time side-effects 23:51:41 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 23:52:32 -!- seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:53:34 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:53:36 is this relevant for me if I use sbcl? or can I live happily without ever bothering with it? 23:53:39 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:53:54 it's relevant if you want to use XCVB 23:54:19 you don't have to be bothered with it. 23:54:28 but yes, it can help a lot if you're using xcvb. 23:54:43 *Fare* is having an xcvb compile of qres right now... 23:55:03 had to add a few eval-when's 23:55:07 Ok, I just looked up what xcvb is, and while I understand each word of the acronym, I don't understand them together :) 23:55:24 so probably won't need it on the level that I use (learn) lisp 23:55:38 *Fare* would prefer to not use eval-when's but that wouldn't work if/when I have to re-run a2x 23:55:53 Sikander, don't worry about it. 23:56:18 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 23:56:59 Fare: exactly :) 23:57:47 http://tehran.lain.pl/git.web/fcgi?a=commitdiff;h=5abbc7e77ac96c99fa74281e4a652193e5d76e5c 23:57:50 i like this license 23:58:08 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-xpapfroobsqsyuqi] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:58:11 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Licensing:MIT#Minimal_variant_.28found_in_io_lib.29 23:58:48 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:59:32 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 23:59:44 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp