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[n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:33 Anyone here use Aquamacs 2.0 Preview 1 for OSX? 02:29:09 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 02:31:19 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 02:34:56 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:35:26 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:18 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:42:24 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:43:43 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:58 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.105.234] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:17:58 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 03:22:58 zeroish` [n=zeroish@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:19 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:26:12 -!- gonzojive__ [n=red@122.163.12.110] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:27:17 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-181-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:36 -!- hefner [i=hefner@ppp-58-9-111-250.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:30:47 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 03:32:00 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.14.153] has joined #lisp 03:32:06 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.14.153] has left #lisp 03:34:16 gonzojive_ [n=red@122.161.150.77] has joined #lisp 03:35:50 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@96.250.220.91] has joined #lisp 03:44:59 cadabra [n=cadabra@adsl-69-107-117-55.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:09 Baconizer [n=Baconize@unaffiliated/baconizer] has joined #lisp 03:51:38 Anyone here use Aquamacs 2.0 Preview 1 for OSX? 03:52:44 no 03:56:04 it seems not. 03:56:27 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2F234.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:56:33 it looks good. was wondering if anyone's used it for dev and if so what kind of bugs they've seen. 04:02:27 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-204-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:24 -!- dalton [n=user5442@189-19-114-214.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Success] 04:08:47 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:14:46 heyall. why is it that (car '(*some-var*)) is a symbol and not *some-var* 04:15:04 *some-var* is a symbol 04:15:26 (*some-var*) is a list containing one symbol 04:15:35 '(*some-var*) is a form which evaluates to that list 04:15:52 perhaps you wanted (list *some-var*), a form which evaluates to a list containing the value of *some-var* 04:15:59 (car (list *some-var*)) 04:16:38 yes. that works. 04:16:45 how come '() isn't the same as (list ) 04:16:46 ? 04:16:56 I could have sworn that's how I learned it to be 04:17:03 they are 04:17:33 oh. you saying that the former is '(*some-var*) while the latter is more like `(,*some-var*) ? 04:17:39 yes 04:17:41 Gotcha. 04:17:42 thanks. 04:18:07 `(,*some-var*) is equivalent to, and may in fact expand to, (list *some-var*) 04:18:26 You might also find this enlightening: 04:18:34 (defun list (&rest args) args) 04:19:00 hah 04:19:06 that is enlightening 04:19:53 very much indeed. 04:20:07 fyi, I haven't solved the sql macro cluster fest yet =) 04:20:28 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-39.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:26:30 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@122.161.150.77] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:27:18 gonzojive_ [n=red@122.162.249.111] has joined #lisp 04:29:54 -!- zeroish` [n=zeroish@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:31:15 is there something out there that abstracts away the whole (setf (foo x) (delete bar (foo x))) pattern? 04:31:58 define-modify-macro perhaps 04:32:48 thanks :D 04:33:08 alexandria have a couple of macros for this btw. 04:33:24 (deletef ..) (nreversef ..) etc. 04:33:32 has a couple* 04:33:35 wonderful 04:35:33 benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-124-177-91-65.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:36:47 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-24-76.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 04:44:03 -!- legumbre [n=user@190.135.50.95] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:47:06 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 04:52:07 |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E45E87.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:11 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@122.162.249.111] has quit [] 04:59:09 -!- nitor [n=digms@cpe-66-69-183-64.sw.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 04:59:12 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:46 is there a way to catch slot-unbound conditions that might come out of any accessor of a specific class? 05:00:57 (like a class wide default handler) 05:02:09 seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 05:03:24 can you implement lisp macros with eval? naively speaking, it looks like eval could be used to implement defmacro somehow 05:05:30 you can wrap *debugger-hook*, Moe111 .. this might be a bit "too global" though .. (class-of (unbound-slot-instance )) etc. 05:06:26 hmmm. it is a bit global. Would you change your statement if I said I have full control over the declaration and creation ofthe objects? 05:06:51 ..i can't think of another "nice" way to do it without using a custom metaclass, Moe111 .. it'd be simple then i think 05:07:51 you mean wrapping my defclass into a macro that would wrap each accessor ? 05:07:51 if you'd like i can show you how to do that .. but perhaps others know about other ways 05:08:02 no 05:08:27 I would like to get an idea of what you;re talking about, yes. 05:08:51 ok, sec. 05:08:57 thanks 05:10:37 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E46AB8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 05:10:56 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@adsl-69-107-117-55.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:12:57 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:14:00 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:15:32 Moe111, http://paste.lisp.org/display/85850 05:16:08 seb-: that question doesn't really make sense. 05:16:20 lnostdal: thank you very much. I am reading now. 05:17:00 What DEFMACRO gives you is a hook into the Lisp compiler and evaluator. 05:18:02 lnostdal: the validate-superclass is there to do what exactly? 05:18:16 btw, it's great. It pretty much exactly answers what I needed. 05:19:51 Moe111, boilerplate .. hm, it states, as i've understood it, that "it is ok to 'combine' these two metaclassas" (the standard-class and custom-slot-unbound-class) 05:20:07 ..kinda.. 05:21:12 -!- jao [n=jao@31.Red-83-33-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:21:15 http://www.lisp.org/mop/dictionary.html#validate-superclass 05:22:13 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:31 -!- Kirklander [n=Kirkland@174-143-212-242.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:22:46 e.g., the call-next-method there will use the "next" slot-value-using-class in line, right .. in this case that happens to be the one defined for standard-class .. but it could be yet another custom metaclass 05:23:27 ..maybe one storing slot values in a db backend .. or something else .. it might not make sense to combine these things 05:23:53 ..so we're asked to validate that things are safe to combine 05:24:03 i should read amop again 05:24:10 all of it .. :} 05:25:12 what is this amop you mention. sigh. so much to learn 05:26:24 btw. I'm using SBCL and I've had to use the sb-mop namespace like so: 05:26:26 "The Art of the Metaobject Protocol", a very good book 05:27:11 moocow [n=new@64.151.208.1] has joined #lisp 05:27:15 http://paste.lisp.org/display/85850 05:27:17 yeah, closer-mop just wraps sb-mop .. closer-mop is to the mop as bordeaux-threads is to thread support 05:27:25 I see. 05:27:37 so it's ok that I define the method in a system package though? 05:27:52 i.e. defmethod sb-mop:asdfasd 05:27:53 ? 05:28:08 yup 05:28:10 (I guess it would only make sense in that context) 05:28:30 yeah, the idea is to override default behavior 05:28:41 (or wrap it; you're using :around) ... :) 05:28:47 thanks very much, lnostdal. This just works. I will now order amop 05:29:00 cool, yw 05:29:30 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:30:22 vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 05:30:40 gnight. 05:30:41 -!- jauaor [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has left #lisp 05:30:42 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [] 05:31:17 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:34:24 -!- benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-124-177-91-65.qld.bigpond.net.au] has left #lisp 05:35:45 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-204-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:48:11 serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-155-42.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:57:08 -!- serichse1 [n=harleqin@81.173.158.194] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:05:24 -!- _8david [n=user@port-92-195-37-243.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:05:59 _8david 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[n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:50:39 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@c-24-34-16-25.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:03:42 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.22.244] has quit [] 07:06:52 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:06:53 dysinger [n=dysinger@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 07:09:07 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-127-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:09:20 plage [n=user@90-227-107-28-no34.business.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:09:24 Good morning. 07:13:57 Hello plage 07:30:32 Davidbrcz [n=david@86.203.91.25] has joined #lisp 07:31:24 saikat_ [n=saikat@ip72-219-189-201.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:36:43 sellout [n=greg@62.38.61.146] has joined #lisp 07:40:13 gonzojive_ [n=red@122.162.184.4] has joined #lisp 07:40:28 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@122.162.184.4] has quit [Client Quit] 07:43:35 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:46:05 Modius_ [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #lisp 07:48:19 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has quit [Client Quit] 07:48:38 Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #lisp 07:51:42 -!- ToreN [n=tore@181.133.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit ["leaving"] 07:51:59 -!- sellout [n=greg@62.38.61.146] has quit [] 07:53:44 good morning 08:00:48 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Client Quit] 08:03:01 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 08:03:28 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:08:50 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@88.208.105.1] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:11:43 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:13:25 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.90.27] has joined #lisp 08:16:16 -!- Baconizer [n=Baconize@unaffiliated/baconizer] has left #lisp 08:17:14 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:58 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.90.27] has quit [Client Quit] 08:18:07 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:19:43 right, i've stumped myself. without adding a bunch of prints, how can i step through a function call in slime 08:20:23 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:21:52 girzel [n=user@123.121.238.163] has joined #lisp 08:22:06 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.90.27] has joined #lisp 08:22:29 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.90.27] has quit [Client Quit] 08:26:13 sellout [n=greg@62.38.61.146] has joined #lisp 08:26:32 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:31 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:29:52 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:58 clhs step 08:32:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_step.htm 08:33:03 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 08:33:18 Demosthenes: See this URL ^ 08:33:38 i did, doesn't help 08:33:46 But isn't there a slime command to step? 08:33:54 i wrapped the funcall in step, and it just jumps right by, though i tried the step-into option 08:34:23 i tried 's' for slime-step, and put a trace/break on the function so it'd bring up the debugger and try step-into, no dice 08:34:23 Demosthenes: isn't there some mention of stepping in the slime manual? 08:34:27 Demosthenes: You probably need to compile with a high debug level. 08:35:00 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:35:10 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 08:35:19 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@ip72-219-189-201.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [] 08:35:42 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 08:35:52 plage: man, that was it. 08:35:56 -!- Ogedei [n=user@e178205075.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:36:04 i read that adding step would wrap it, i guess i need it specified everywhere 08:36:10 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest88072 08:37:29 -!- sellout [n=greg@62.38.61.146] has quit [] 08:38:16 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@86.203.91.25] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 08:39:13 -!- vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:40:26 i kept putting that header on my final consumer of my libs... no wonder i couldn't debug, i just added it to all 08:41:23 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:41:24 There's a ~/.sbclrc file... 08:41:36 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 08:42:22 -!- Guest88072 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 08:44:30 splittist [n=dmurray@85.5.55.63] has joined #lisp 08:44:33 morning 08:46:02 -!- |stern| is now known as seelenquell 08:48:03 letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has joined #lisp 08:52:04 morning 08:52:27 fgtech [n=federico@host22-156-dynamic.56-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:54:17 (defmacro fun (&whole family) "This macro puts the FUN back in FUNCTION." ..) 08:54:23 -!- plage [n=user@90-227-107-28-no34.business.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:54:25 Just thought I should share this with you guys 08:57:24 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 08:59:37 HG` [n=HG@xdsley229.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:00:56 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:01:02 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:01:21 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:40 Xach: just a note, if it's retro, it's not pseudo :) 09:02:17 unless it's some kind of a weird game that pretends to be retro but was actually manufactured a long time ago and is only now being unveiled, but that'd be rather odd 09:02:26 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.238.163] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:02:34 girzel [n=user@123.121.238.163] has joined #lisp 09:02:50 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 09:04:56 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 09:06:15 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:05 -!- letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:09:12 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:10:54 sellout [n=greg@62.38.61.146] has joined #lisp 09:12:04 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 09:14:51 ASau` [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 09:15:10 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:16:28 ok, so for some reason cl-ppcre returns a vector instead of a string for certain captures. 09:16:43 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-15-250.ip58.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 09:21:36 Demosthenes: when you have groups in the regexp it returns information to let you know what each group matches. 09:21:46 Read the doc. 09:25:45 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6E87D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:29:47 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:33:03 danlei [n=user@pD9E2F234.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:34:58 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:35:04 pjb: yep, i use it often 09:35:18 just wild that the original regexp is output as a string, while all the captures are vectors. 09:35:21 makes no sense to me :P 09:35:31 found myself working around it again, thought i'd mention it 09:37:09 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 09:37:52 -!- S1100100` is now known as S11001001 09:40:00 vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 09:43:52 Demosthenes: do you have an example? 09:44:35 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 09:45:26 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdsley229.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 09:48:27 Demosthenex pasted "Regexp capture to vector" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85855 09:50:10 Demosthenex annotated #85855 "Jump thru hoops to get the capture" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85855#1 09:50:38 as i see it, it should just return a list of strings :P 09:50:57 pjb annotated #85855 "better example " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85855#2 09:52:01 Demosthenes: it's better to use a vector: less footprint, and faster direct access to the group you want, since the number of groups is known before (from the parsing of the regexp). 09:52:33 i didn't say there wasn't a reason, just that it seemed awkward 09:52:49 Demosthenes: anyways, since other regexp packages have different API (eg #+clisp regexp returns the groups in multiple values), it's good to wrap them in your own API so you can easily change the regexp package you use. 09:53:39 i frequently use named-capture, so i have a named-capture-to-alist, and named-capture-to-plist 09:53:39 -!- emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-11-230.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:55:46 -!- sellout [n=greg@62.38.61.146] has quit [] 09:55:53 i just happened to be doing a one-off, and had to rediscover the difficulty 09:56:31 milanj [n=milan@212.200.192.70] has joined #lisp 09:57:00 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229142173.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:59:20 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:59:53 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:22 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 10:05:38 Handcrafted [n=henrik@0x573bbf5a.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.ronqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:05:50 nooon [n=r4y@p5496D275.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:51 antoni [n=user@80.Red-83-45-49.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:09 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host22-156-dynamic.56-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:08:24 logBot4122 [n=logBot@59.96.207.50] has joined #lisp 10:15:19 HG` [n=HG@xdslek049.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:15:55 is there a way to wildcard or export-all in a defpackage? 10:16:23 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:17:45 -!- antoni [n=user@80.Red-83-45-49.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:18:21 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 10:18:34 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:18:52 -!- |Trickster| [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:24:30 matley [n=matley@83.225.231.28] has joined #lisp 10:25:17 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslek049.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 10:28:10 "all" is not clear .. (defun test (x y z) (+ x y z)) .. would export both test, x, y and z from the package 10:30:07 |Trickster| [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has joined #lisp 10:31:53 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:33:22 is there an all? 10:33:23 i didn't see that 10:33:29 -!- logBot4122 [n=logBot@59.96.207.50] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:34:41 no, i mean there is no clear definition of what "all" means wrt. common lisp 10:34:45 ..and your question 10:34:55 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-73-92-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 10:35:03 ..the reader interns symbols in the current package as it encounters it 10:35:18 that is; all symbols .. (not just 'test' in my example) 10:35:42 ..it does not make any assumptions wrt. which one of those you'd like to export 10:36:49 ohk - i'll go pass out for a while .. bb x) 10:39:33 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-121-25.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:42:01 HG` [n=HG@xdsley221.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:43:45 Also, there's this theory that all the symbols already exist before being interned... So all of them is an infinite set actually. 10:45:09 benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-124-177-91-65.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:46:53 -!- benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-124-177-91-65.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 10:46:54 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdsley221.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 10:47:10 benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-124-177-91-65.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:49:49 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 10:54:23 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 10:55:24 josemanuel [n=josemanu@133.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 10:55:56 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:56:11 Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A664AA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:21 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:00:22 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:02:44 drafael 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[n=the-rued@p508B5636.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:42 ario [n=someone@77-102-174-242.cable.ubr05.trow.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:18:55 (newbie question) what is lambda calculus and how does it relate to lisp...? 13:19:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_calculus 13:19:41 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:20:18 tic: it's a boring read, and doesnt seem to answer everything xD 13:20:29 ario, you need to ask a more specific question, then. 13:21:03 There is simply not very much to lambda calculus. 13:22:22 Is it fair to say that lisp syntax is an orthography for the lambda calculus? 13:23:10 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-35-241-6.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:24:42 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:05 well i was wondering what typed and untyped lambda calculus was exactly as i'm guessing lisp is typed..? 13:26:30 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:04 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:30:40 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:31:06 i think i remember reading somewhere typed lambda calculus allows for recursion while untyped didnt? or something like that.. but i can't find anywhere to verify that.. 13:31:39 Yes, Lisp is typed. 13:33:40 piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:06 tic: do you mind explaining what typed and untyped is? 13:36:16 <``Erik> http://en.wikipedia.org/Strong_typing ? 13:36:33 i'd like to learn lambda calculus 13:37:56 why does there seem to be so many words infront of the word 'type'? gaaah 13:38:20 there's a wikipedia article on 'simply' typed lambda calc.. 13:38:23 assembler is a good example of an untyped language. everything's a number, and there is no checking for valid input. in Lisp, you can't add (+) two strings together, because + is only valid for numbers. that's typing. 13:38:48 ah i see! 13:38:59 thanks! 13:39:02 "data having types" vs "plain old data" (often numbers, but for lambda calculus you have something else.) 13:39:13 *tic* hopes he got that right. 13:39:27 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:40:59 hmm do you know why it needs to be typed in order to do recursion? (if that is even the case...) 13:41:34 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 13:43:01 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 13:43:10 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-142-142.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:43:12 HG` [n=HG@xdsler185.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:48:02 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 13:52:18 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 13:56:17 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.92.8] has joined #lisp 13:57:45 ArtVandalae [n=SuperUnk@220.253-232-10.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:58:03 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:01:20 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-103-249.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:03:11 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:04:30 -!- zeroish` [n=zeroish@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:07:19 ario: the relationship between lisp and lambda calculus is the symbol LAMBDA. That's all. 14:07:23 AgentX [n=x@118.95.41.44] has joined #lisp 14:08:02 pjb: oh i see.. 14:08:10 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:08:37 Basically, when McCarthy introduced lambda to lisp, he didn't know lambda calculus and was just seeking a notation. 14:09:27 so lisp isnt really based on lambda calc? 14:09:51 it just incorporated the lambda symbol at some point? 14:09:57 No more than any other progarmming language. Yes. 14:10:15 Python also has "lambda". So does C++0x 14:10:30 Do wikipedia lied to me? :'-( 14:10:35 s/Do/So/ 14:10:48 That depends on what you expected, and what you found out. 14:10:54 Elench: not really either. 14:10:58 -!- gonzojive [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:11:11 Elench: lisp has not been invented, it has been discovered. 14:11:12 From wikipedia "Lisp was originally created as a practical mathematical notation for computer programs, based on Alonzo Church's lambda calculus." 14:11:25 Elench: lisp derives directly from lambda calculus. 14:11:55 Based on the notation for anonymous function of Lambda Calculus. 14:11:58 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:18 So the relation between lisp and lambda calculus is much more than the symbol lambda? 14:12:35 At a fundamental level, yes. 14:13:01 -!- Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A664AA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:13:01 That's what i thought, i must have misunderstood your previous post somehow 14:13:05 Thanks for the clarification 14:13:09 But this relation is not apparent at the concrete level, not more than with other concrete programming language. 14:13:09 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-35-241-6.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 14:13:10 but Common Lisp, which you use today, does not remotely look like lambda calculus. 14:13:44 Would scheme be closer? Or is it much further afield than that? 14:14:04 scheme is closer, especially in the first revisions of the standard. 14:14:13 For the run-down of Common Lisp, see http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp 14:14:33 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host22-156-dynamic.56-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:14:53 distilled version at http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/features.text 14:15:08 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.192.70] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:19:12 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-35-242-52.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:19:20 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-35-242-52.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:20:06 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:21:11 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:21:22 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:21:34 would anyone happen to have a copy of "Hygienic Macros through Explicit Renaming"? The link on readcheme.org doesn't seem to work 14:22:09 ah, nevermind, citeseer worked 14:22:31 -!- vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:23:00 -!- LDCC2 is now known as Vutral 14:30:20 also, I've seen it happen with a number of older papers, the above included: the pages are in the reverse order. Is there any quick way fix that up? 14:30:27 reading that way is very annoying 14:31:03 They come from PS files prepared for printers that output pages ink above. 14:31:38 There are definitely tools to reverse the page order in ps or pdf files. 14:31:47 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:21 Google says: pstops 1:-0 origina.ps reversed.ps 14:33:48 dalton [n=user5442@187.10.19.218] has joined #lisp 14:36:02 hefner [i=hefner@58.9.110.15] has joined #lisp 14:36:44 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:37:23 I'm trying to come up with a set of generic functions/macros for object instantiation -- ideally they would accept a class name, and initial arguments in some form, and return a newly created instance. I'm new to Lisp, and am trying to think of the best way to pass in initial data. My initial thought is a plist, where the keys are class slot names and the values initial data, and then a macro to splice that information into a call to 14:37:23 make-instance. Does this make sense? Does anyone have any sage advice for dealing with this sort of situation? 14:38:19 what would be the added value over a simple call to #'make-instance? 14:40:06 fgtech [n=federico@82.56.156.22] has joined #lisp 14:40:24 I'm trying to come up with a generic CRUD module for hunchentoot, mostly a learning exercise 14:40:32 girzel: I mean, what you describe looks exactly like the functionality that #'make-instance already provides 14:40:50 (apply (function make-instance) class-name initialization-plist) ; more precisely. 14:41:05 ah 14:41:18 you can just stick in the plist directly? 14:42:20 girzel: yes, keywords in arguments are arguments like the others. You could compute them: (defstruct point x y) (make-point (if (zerop (random 2)) :x :y) 42) 14:43:07 better with (defstruct point (x 0) (y 0)). 14:44:55 hang on, so you're saying (make-instance 'bogroll :ply 2 :length 100) is equivalent to (apply #'make-instance 'bogroll '(:ply 2 :length 100))? 14:44:57 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229142173.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:46:06 pjb: oh, cool, it didn't return that hit for me, so I was fighting with a silly GUI called pdfedit 14:46:55 girzel: exactly. 14:47:19 mathrick: I googled ps page order reverse 14:47:36 pjb: I googled pdf reverse pages 14:48:35 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.92.8] has quit [] 14:49:14 mathrick: you could also use pdftk or perhaps even pdfnup with a 1x1 argument 14:49:30 Man, you read Practical Common Lisp four times in a row, and there are still some pretty basic things that slip by. Thanks, pjb. 14:50:13 girzel: don't read in a row, read and write along 14:50:34 piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:35 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 14:53:09 mathrick: I did! I learned a bunch. But it's definitely different once you're flying blind. 14:55:43 girzel: sure, but it should go more like (progn (read) (write 'non-trivial-code) (or (read-again) (consult))) , not just (dotimes (i 4) (read)) 14:56:23 you have to get significant experiences inbetween readings for them to be any different 14:56:35 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:57:19 mathrick: A recursive function, perhaps? 14:57:38 nah, just crappy notation 14:57:39 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:22 Nshag [i=user@193.248.206.147] has joined #lisp 14:58:58 mhm 15:01:08 jan247 [n=jvliwana@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 15:01:53 -!- jan247 [n=jvliwana@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Client Quit] 15:02:17 jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 15:03:03 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229150216.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:06:48 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 15:11:56 plage [n=user@81-234-190-230-o1095.tbon.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:12:01 Good afternoon. 15:12:14 heya beach 15:14:36 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-23-169.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:03 hey, plage! 15:15:10 and gigamonkey, and everyone else. 15:15:46 greets 15:16:34 ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.93.153] has joined #lisp 15:18:25 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-151-196-43-142.balt.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:46 francogrex [n=franco@91.177.20.87] has joined #lisp 15:19:39 Hi, I've been on a trip for one week; diodn't have any PC ; all I had was a palm OS on which I downloaded a hadicapped version of scehem callemd LispMe; it drove me crazy 15:20:00 thank god, I'm back to real lisp 15:20:08 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:57 gigamonkey is Mr. Seibel if I'm not wrong? 15:21:29 AgentX: jackpot 15:23:08 Ah, thanks! Pardon my ignorance. I'm new to Lisp and this channel. 15:23:28 gonzojive [n=red@122.163.12.10] has joined #lisp 15:24:34 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 15:27:59 Pepe_ [n=ppjet@78.116.11.105] has joined #lisp 15:28:23 don't forget me! i am also on the cover of that book! 15:30:17 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:21 lol 15:30:47 *serichsen* hears "wanna see my smiling face on the cover of the ... um... PCL" in his head 15:31:00 This may very well be a face palm question, but how do I get information from a keyed list such as (:a 1 :b 2 :c 3) ? (I would like to be able to call something like assoc and obtain the value 2 for :b) 15:31:05 manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6F801.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:19 <_3b> clhs getf 15:31:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_getf.htm 15:31:48 cue face-palm :) 15:32:07 -!- ArtVandalae [n=SuperUnk@220.253-232-10.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:32:09 face - palm 15:32:10 =) 15:32:24 it's all about knowing nomenclature. 15:32:35 Thanks _3b 15:32:46 -!- hefner [i=hefner@58.9.110.15] has quit ["."] 15:32:52 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 15:33:16 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:35:41 -!- twobitsprite [n=isaac@li24-165.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 15:37:13 Your uncanny reference to the old hag still being sexy is quite unmistakable, Xach. ;) 15:41:33 -!- plage [n=user@81-234-190-230-o1095.tbon.telia.com] has left #lisp 15:42:09 Adamant 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[n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 15:51:09 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-49-28.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:51:47 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 15:52:52 -!- letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:53:43 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:54:46 -!- dalton [n=user5442@187.10.19.218] has quit ["eject"] 15:55:17 dalton [n=user5442@187.10.19.218] has joined #lisp 15:55:27 -!- dalton [n=user5442@187.10.19.218] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:56:02 macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:56:45 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1DAC9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:45 -!- francogrex [n=franco@91.177.20.87] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:58:55 *Xach* finds the lisp hacking easiest and the web design the hardest 15:59:30 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit 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buffer when EOF reached while reading from child: #(67 111 110 17:05:29 comes from sbcl run-program 17:05:44 :output is set to a stream 17:06:21 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 17:06:36 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:07:10 HG` [n=HG@xdslfa165.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:07:40 sbcl source has a comment saying: ;; Should this be an END-OF-FILE? 17:08:03 levy: UTF-8? 111 signals the beginning of a 3 byte sequence 17:09:26 -!- mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:11:07 <_3b> isn't 111 #\o ? 17:12:58 rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 17:14:26 Erh, right. < 128. I should always 0 pad. 17:22:28 Handcrafted [n=henrik@0x573bbf5a.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.ronqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:22:36 JAS415 [n=jon@c-24-34-16-25.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:01 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-235-135.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:32:29 vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@188.17.105.2] has joined #lisp 17:35:17 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 17:35:59 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Absquatulandus sum"] 17:36:31 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-49-28.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:36:50 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-171-195.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 17:37:12 good afternoon, #lisp 17:38:57 hello 17:39:47 hello 17:46:22 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:48:34 levy_ [n=levy@apn-89-223-153-224.vodafone.hu] has 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[n=david@ANantes-151-1-121-25.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:51:43 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 19:52:47 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 19:53:11 Suttonian [n=Suttonia@5ad1e634.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 19:53:39 -!- mikezor_ is now known as mikezor 19:56:03 -!- Suttonian [n=Suttonia@5ad1e634.bb.sky.com] has left #lisp 19:57:08 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:38 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-24-147-105-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:44 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 20:02:39 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:03:11 -!- woodz [n=woodz@host217-42-28-83.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 20:03:36 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:03:56 luis: can you check for me if changing (truename ...) to (pathname ...) makes whatever it is that didn't work work in delete-file? 20:05:52 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 20:06:08 Krystof: sure, hang on. 20:08:21 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["leaving"] 20:09:07 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.105.234] has quit [Success] 20:11:34 *luis* is lost in a maze of SBCL trees, all slightly different 20:14:10 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:20 thirsty SBCL trees 20:15:43 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:18:18 -!- GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:18:51 Krystof: it works, yes. 20:19:32 that way DELETE-FILE can delete links instead of the files they point to. 20:20:04 GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:22 but does it break with streams? 20:22:12 20:27:12 Hmm, seems like while 1.0.33.22 did touch that PROBE-FILE/NAMESTRING bit, it's unrelated to streams. 20:30:04 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:30:28 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-116-17.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:31:34 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:34:45 -!- blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 20:35:06 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@76.122.37.30] has joined #lisp 20:36:35 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 20:38:52 luis: it should not break with streams 20:39:19 I'll commit something related to CVS tonight or tomorrow; putting it a little bit more through its paces would be helpful 20:40:04 gonzojive [n=red@122.162.232.226] has joined #lisp 20:40:51 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6F801.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 20:41:43 antoszka [n=antoszka@cl-142.waw-01.pl.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:22 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:58 -!- GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:53:49 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:58:23 jao [n=jao@31.Red-83-33-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:25 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:32 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:07:32 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 21:09:03 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:09:08 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:16:35 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:17:05 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-218-122.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:21 Can anyone tell me which implementations, if any, garbage-collect unreferenced symbols (that is, ones referenced only from their packages), or for that matter unreferenced packages? 21:17:56 jcowan: you can't GC interned symbols. It wouldn't be interning otherwise. 21:18:27 Is there a way to contract a file in lisp aside without copying the part of the file you want to a new file? 21:19:14 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 21:19:33 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:19:44 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:17 gonzojive: if you mean truncate it, no. 21:20:27 gonzojive: Only if your OS supports truncation and your Lisp implementation has an FFI that gives you access to it. 21:20:37 gonzojive: you may try to find first if there's a way to do it in the OS. POSIX doesn't offer such a feature. 21:20:41 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-116-17.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:21:01 pkhuong: Operationally, how can you tell the difference between an entirely new symbol and one that was once in the image but no longer has any references to it? 21:21:03 thanks 21:21:12 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 21:21:33 Most *ix systems do provide truncate and ftruncate calls. 21:22:08 jcowan: there may be some value, or function bound to a symbol, and of course, it may have a plist. 21:22:22 jcowan: plist, function, value. 21:22:33 Again, if there's no reference (or self-reference) to the symbol, all those things are unreachable garbage. 21:22:56 jcowan: unfortunately, the GC isn't hooked up to my memory. 21:23:05 jcowan: then you asked a meaningless question. 21:23:14 jcowan: any answer to a meaningless question is valid. 21:23:17 Why meaningless? 21:23:32 If you cannot reach something it doesn't exist. 21:23:41 You asked to compare something that doesn't exist vs. something that exists. 21:23:44 Meaningless question. 21:24:01 Then it *is* valid to gc a symbol if there are no references to it 21:24:10 just like gc'ing anything else. 21:24:10 Of course. 21:24:20 jcowan: sure, symbols are GCed like regular objects 21:24:26 aren't interned symbols non-GC-able? 21:24:27 *interned* symbols can't. 21:24:41 ah, ask a stupid question.... :) 21:24:43 interned symbols are referenced by the symbol table of their package(s). 21:25:06 TuxPurple_ [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 21:25:12 True. And yet if that were the only reference, it would have (I think) no perceptible effects if the symbol were removed anyhow. 21:25:35 jcowan: no, because my brain may still reference those values. 21:25:38 jcowan: wrong. 21:25:43 plist, value, function. 21:25:58 Also, because we have functions to list packages and symbols in a package. 21:26:42 pkhuong: Ah, now that is compelling. So you can navigate from a package to all its symbols. 21:26:57 Now: are unreferenced packages subject to gc? If not, why not? 21:27:01 and classes? 21:27:03 clhs do-symbols 21:27:03 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_sym.htm 21:27:11 (for example) 21:27:22 clhs list-all-packages 21:27:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_list_a.htm 21:27:49 zoldar [n=zoldar@kyh66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:28:01 jcowan: as soon as you've given an externalizable name (e.g. package & symbol names) to a resource, you can't assume that local unreashability means no one still has a hold on that name. 21:28:03 jcowan: tat 21:28:13 jcowan: that's exactly why tree-shakers are for. 21:29:55 Ah, so the key point is the package registry, which is to packages as a package is to symbols. Therefore, all registered packages and all symbols maintained in them are permanent, unless the symbol is removed from all packages and/or the package is removed from the registry. 21:31:23 -!- nooon [n=r4y@p5496D275.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:31:30 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:31:54 Thanks, all. 21:32:03 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-218-122.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:34:40 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-36-221.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 21:38:05 joswig [n=joswig@e177155209.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:38:15 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:25 zeroish` [n=zeroish@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:41 -!- Handcrafted [n=henrik@0x573bbf5a.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.ronqu1.customer.tele.dk] has left #lisp 21:40:47 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:41:10 Alright, so following some pretty sage advice this morning as to how to implement a metaclass, I'm stuck on the following: 21:41:41 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6F801.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:49 I've declared a sb-mop:validate-superclass method which takes as superclass standard-class 21:42:12 and I've declare a class of mine as being a metaclass of my new fangled class 21:42:34 say foo is the metaclass, bar is the new class that is a foo metaclass 21:43:00 now, if I make a baz class which inherits bar, I get the "incompatible classes" error 21:43:20 doesn't baz inheriting from bar also make it inherit standard-class? 21:44:06 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229150216.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 21:44:34 Moe111 pasted "mop" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85873 21:46:08 the last defclass fails with a condition saying "Define a 21:46:08 method for SB-MOP:VALIDATE-SUPERCLASS to avoid this error." 21:47:01 maybe it's right? 21:47:38 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177121250.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:48:31 all. I have to declare the inherited class as a metaclass as well it seems. That's idiosyncratic I guess... 21:48:37 all = ahh 21:50:59 hmmm. I could have sworn this wasn't working 10 minutes ago. 21:51:08 ah well, sorry to bother. 21:52:18 lisp, "It Just Works (TM)" 21:52:31 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-24-147-105-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 21:52:33 -!- loxs [n=loxs@78.90.124.182] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:52:37 oh god NO, not apple-style advertisement 21:53:55 p_l: is your name some sort of deformed face? 21:53:57 no, that'd be "Think Parens (TM)" 21:54:04 I've been trying to figure it out for a while 21:54:25 its a borg! 21:54:58 "LISP Is Simply Perfect" 21:55:45 Moe111: ... in theory, I should take that as insult and demand a duel. In practice, no, it's not a deformed face, it's my initials with underscore in between 21:56:14 p_l: if that were your face indeed, then you are right, a duel would be in order for merely looking your way 21:56:33 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:56:46 oh nice addition to the disucssion 21:56:58 portrait by Picasso? 21:57:00 all we need now is witgenstein and the monty python boys 21:57:14 *Adlai* hits Moe111 with a poker and a dead parrot. 21:57:39 21:57:55 I didn't get the poke, but got the parrot loud and clear 21:58:17 Adlai: he's not dead, he's resting 21:59:45 *p_l* ups the priority of "Acquire overwhelming arsenal of weaponry" todo item 21:59:45 Moe111: Wittgenstein once had a rather heated argument with Karl Popper, that supposedly ended rather violently... 22:00:03 anyone know where to post ebuild requests for the gentoo lisp overlay? 22:00:50 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:01:09 Adlai: it's nice to hear that actually. It makes my heated discussions with my father all of a sudden seem more civilized. I generally feel shame when philosophical debate devolves into violence =\ 22:01:56 Moe111: have you seen photos of some parliament's sessions? 22:02:07 hah! 22:02:16 I kinda like the idea of "beat the other party into submission so they can't vote" 22:02:27 Well it's not entirely clear what happened. There are different versions of the story, ranging from them just discussing a poker as a philosophical metaphor, to them actually exchanging blows 22:02:30 Oh, I don't know which parliament you're talking about, but I do listen to Canadian parliament from time to time. it's a hoot 22:02:40 zephyrfalcon [n=zephyrfa@adsl-074-229-200-227.sip.gnv.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:14 *_3b* would have guessed 'Funkadelic' as the parliament of choice 22:06:45 does anyone know how to "resync" the dreaded "error in protocol" mesages you get in emacs when working on a remote machine? 22:06:59 and, yes, that is a vague question 22:07:26 remote slime? 22:08:20 aye. 22:09:12 empirically speaking, it happens only if I either disconnect from emacs and reconnect to a running image, or if the remote image dies and restarts and I reconnect via emacs 22:09:20 emacs being AquaMacs, btw 22:09:50 Makoryu [n=vt920@162.33.18.234] has joined #lisp 22:09:50 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-30-49.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:09:59 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@162.33.18.234] has quit [Client Quit] 22:10:26 -!- zephyrfalcon [n=zephyrfa@adsl-074-229-200-227.sip.gnv.bellsouth.net] has quit [] 22:11:57 i don't really get then, what "error in protocol" messages? 22:15:35 klausi [n=klausi@port-92-193-91-254.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:16:45 it usuall occurs when I invoke completion. Aquamacs will just freeze and there will be a status message saying "Error in protocol". The only way to get out is by C-c C-c if you are lucky and AM is responsive, otherwise to kill the remote image or kill aquamacs itself 22:17:05 it's not a big pain that I need it resolved, but I'm wondering if anyone else gets this 22:17:21 -!- ario [n=someone@77-102-174-242.cable.ubr05.trow.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [] 22:18:45 exactly "error in protocol"? 22:23:08 hold on. I'll trigger one 22:24:03 you're gonna have to be patient. 22:24:28 ah. not really. here it is: 22:24:36 error in process filter: Invalid protocol message 22:24:42 If I C-c C-c 22:25:08 ah. no, it's not responsive enough. 22:25:31 actually, I do have it. here it is 22:25:49 try C-g 22:25:51 Moe111 pasted "swank error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85874 22:26:08 oh well 22:26:09 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:15 how do you load swank? 22:26:30 on the remote machine? 22:26:38 yep 22:26:42 by asdf? 22:27:24 yes. asdf 22:27:26 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 22:27:35 until recent loading through asdf didn't compile the contribs, but now it does 22:27:37 try to update 22:28:18 you mean to update through asdf-install? 22:28:34 no, through CVS 22:28:49 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6F801.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 22:28:50 did you get slime through asdf-install? 22:28:59 no. 22:29:09 good 22:29:32 is there anything emacs lisp has, that common lisp doesn't have? 22:29:42 madnificent: Emacs 22:30:01 stassats: that is an application written in the language, and thus is not just the language itself :) 22:30:07 (I think) 22:30:20 emacs lisp is tightly coupled with Emacs itself 22:30:42 yes, I know that... but I'm just talking about elisp itself 22:30:54 what's elisp then? 22:31:03 emacs lisp, the language 22:31:39 well, it does have many things for doing text editing 22:32:12 what I'm mainly thinking about (I find it interesting, I'm not going to persue it) is for the feasability to let emacs run on top of common lisp... If you can replace the core of the language, then all else can stay 22:32:18 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6F801.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:37 sure it can, remember Turing? 22:33:31 stassats: hence the word feasibility :) 22:33:39 -!- joswig [n=joswig@e177155209.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 22:34:26 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6F801.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:34:42 i guess it's more pleasant to write low level part in CL instead of C 22:34:57 it would mean that you'd only have to implement a core set of operations/functions, after which you'd be able to run emacs from common lisp (and it would be integrated at once) 22:35:51 how fast it would be, is another question 22:36:19 madnificent: but why would you want to do it? 22:36:53 it might be that the chosen common lisp implementation would do more optimisation on a higher level than emacs lisp currently does... thus it could -in theory- be faster on some operations :) 22:37:20 jcowan: Part of what a "tree shaker" may do is unintern all symbols in one or more packages; this will automatically cause all symbols not actually used explicitly (and their values) to be GCed, so if your application can work under the constraint of "don't use symbols only by intern/do-symbols" then it's a way to strip out unnecessary definitions 22:37:32 I'm not going to pursue it, it was a thought-experiment... I was wondering about concepts that weren't already in common lisp, which would need to be written :) 22:37:36 i'd rather go Climacs route 22:37:55 there was an elisp->cl compiler somewhere... 22:38:48 stassats: well, having emacs itself at your fingertips would ensure you that you'd be able to use that text editor, but extend it from another language (common lisp) 22:39:07 stassats: whereas climacs was not just emacs in my experience... 22:39:39 p_l: it seems to be unmaintained, and I'm not sure if it was finished 22:40:00 p_l: but that would basically be it, I guess... perhaps some other things in the core of emacs 22:40:12 madnificent: well, great part of that text editor is in C, again 22:40:27 stassats: which one? 22:40:28 so you'd have to write it first 22:40:47 -!- ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.93.153] has left #lisp 22:41:07 language primitives, editing primitives 22:41:18 stassats: you're talking about emacs, not climacs, right? 22:41:29 right 22:41:43 while language primitives could be replaced by those from CL, editing should be written 22:41:48 then yes, and I'm not willing to do that... but the concept is fun :) 22:44:08 stassats: certain changes could be also made that might be too hard to be done to GNU Emacs xD 22:44:44 p_l: could you elaborate? 22:45:28 well, even greater part is still written in ELisp 22:46:07 so if you are talking, for example, about multithreading, that should be taken into account to 22:46:49 madnificent: multiprocessing 22:47:07 ah, stassats said it already :D 22:47:24 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 22:47:29 s/to/too/ 22:48:04 when emacs was written, there were no FOSS common lisp implementations available, right? 22:48:41 adding multiprocessing isn't hard, rewriting existing lisp code with it in mind is quite hard 22:48:42 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:36 -!- klausi [n=klausi@port-92-193-91-254.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:52:43 madnificent: emacs invented FOSS! 22:53:31 madnificent, at that time there were no reasonably portable Lisp implementations in C, and CL itself wasn't quite finished yet 22:54:01 I thought so, but wasn't sure I had my history lessons right :) 22:55:11 GNU Emacs started in 1984, then should have been Spice Lisp 22:55:37 anyway, there was no CLOS yet 22:55:42 if I'd have been wrong, then there had to be some reasons why they didn't chose CL 22:58:09 simple: RMS doesn't like CL. he thinks that keyword args are "unlispy" 22:58:21 RMS also spent a 22:58:23 gah 22:58:31 s/thinks/thought/ AFAIK he changed minds. 22:59:01 RMS also spent a part of his life competing with Symbolics, and CL is very influenced by Zetalisp (which was produced by Symbolics for their Lisp Machines) 22:59:52 Adlai: part of the sweetness of CL is that you can write your own lisp IN CL, thus redoing those parts which you thought had to be done better... 23:00:39 is there any way to guarantee that (make-array fixnumfoo) will return a '(simple-vector fixnumfoo)? 23:01:02 madnificent: and alienate yourself from other CL programmers 23:01:10 Adlai: what else could it return? 23:01:22 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 23:01:25 pjb: '(array fixnumfoo) 23:01:39 er 23:01:44 '(array t fixnumfoo) 23:01:46 (type-of (make-array 42)) --> (SIMPLE-VECTOR 42) 23:01:48 in clisp... 23:01:51 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 23:02:06 stassats: which you also do by making a new lisp ;) 23:02:13 stassats: or using another lisp... 23:02:19 yeah, I'm pretty sure that all "serious" implementations would do that, but the spec suggests that #'make-array doesn't have to return a sv 23:02:56 -!- TuxPurple_ [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:03:00 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [] 23:05:09 I guess wrapping a (the simple-vector ...) around the call would at least ensure that if it wasn't an sv, there'd be some warning. 23:05:18 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:05:27 why do you need to ensure it? 23:05:41 Adlai: no guarantee of that. 23:05:46 mainly just curiosity 23:07:11 (the x foo) may check that foo has type x, but it may instead cause the compiler to assume that foo has type x, and possibly die if it doesn't. 23:07:24 I see. 23:08:02 astertronistic [n=micknast@ip70-181-198-181.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:59 clhs c-t 23:09:00 Matches: COPY-TREE CHECK-TYPE 23:09:06 clhs check-type 23:09:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_check_.htm 23:11:15 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:00 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.92.8] has joined #lisp 23:13:15 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 23:13:43 Adlai: If you give only one number to make-array, how could it create an array not of dimension one? So it necessarily creates a vector. 23:14:16 I was wondering about simple-vectors though -- ie, non-adjustable, no fill pointer 23:14:19 Adlai: now, a simple vector is a vector of element-type T: where you can store anything. If you don't give an :Element-type what other element-type could it make? A vector of bettles perhaps? 23:14:38 There's simply now way (make-array 42) can make anything else than a (simple-vector 42). 23:14:55 hm, thanks for clarifying. I guess I misread the spec. 23:15:20 rodt [n=rodney@80-45-96-105.static.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 23:15:35 Adlai: clhsl make-array and watch the default values. 23:16:40 -!- macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:19:44 on the other hand, there is no way to ensure that the result is non-simple array 23:20:24 Well, you can make it adjustable or with a fill-pointer. 23:20:39 But you're right that just setting the element-type is not enough to make it a non-simple array. 23:20:59 "If make-array is called with one or more of adjustable, fill-pointer, or displaced-to being true, whether the resulting array is a simple array is implementation-dependent." 23:21:14 Oops. 23:21:31 and also "Notes" 23:25:46 But the definition of simple-array says these three parameters must be nil. So this paragraph and the note would mean that you may not get a non-simple-array even when you specify them non-nil. Which is in contradiction with all the specifications about them (adjustable, fill-pointer and displaced-to). 23:26:44 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-214-150.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:27:04 see Notes at simple-array article 23:27:14 Yes. I read it... 23:28:08 Oh, what I missed is that in the description of simple-array, they define actually a _subtype_ of type simple-array. 23:28:26 So indeed every array may be a simple-array in some implementation. 23:29:00 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:24 i think it means arrays like (simple-array fixnum (*)) are subtypes of simple-array 23:30:44 some people interpret bible at night, and some interpret CLHS 23:30:58 As I understand it, these definitions are made to allow implementations to collapse into a single implementation several types. We see similar things in other parts of the specification. 23:31:16 (eg. delete can be <=> remove) 23:36:08 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:24 alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:43 htk_ [n=htk___@95.65.241.57] has joined #lisp 23:52:59 Why not a vector of beetles? God, we are told, has an inordinate fondness for them (5-8 million species, we think). 23:53:30 who says he has a fondness for them 23:53:38 Of course, they do a lot of clean up. They're the Earth garbage collectors. 23:53:39 maybe the things he has a fondness for eat them 23:53:47 or so on up the chain 23:53:49 :P 23:54:02 It's a famous line by the biologist (and atheist) J.B.S. Haldane 23:54:07 yes, I know 23:54:19 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:27 So your response is in the spirit of Smullyan's retort to Pascal's wager. 23:54:36 but that's like saying God has an inordinate fondness for krill because there is so much of it :P 23:54:43 maybe he just digs whales :P 23:54:51 *jcowan* nods. 23:55:55 well, whales got worldwide networking much faster than humans... 23:56:14 p_l: it's easier for them to swim that far :P 23:56:37 Adamant: they don't have to swim to talk, though :D 23:56:42 "Isn't it possible that the actual God is a scientific type who has very little patience with those who believe things without any evidence?" 23:57:13 Adamant: and they are in water because staying on land was too troublesome ;-) 23:57:17 jcowan: effing ineffables :P 23:57:49 p_l: right, but climbing mountains to get somewhere > swimming through the ocean 23:58:10 but God just is everywhere 23:58:15 jcowan: however, it's very hard to disprove existence of God 23:58:16 which is greatest ofcourse ;) 23:58:21 so is Elvis 23:58:27 according to Mojo Nixon 23:58:38 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:58:42 both are awesome though 23:58:43 (but I agree with the sentiment that God probably prefers people who think) 23:58:46 God and Elvis 23:58:56 p_l: God prefers people like you :P 23:59:04 nah :P 23:59:21 everyone thinks God looks like them :P 23:59:24 people that actually think, not think they think 23:59:40 Who gets to decide which is which, besides God? 23:59:48 everyone duh :P 23:59:51 *jcowan* thinks he thinks, so he thinks he exists. 23:59:57 like p_l said lol