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[n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 01:02:26 -!- jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:04:16 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-21.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 01:04:21 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 01:05:57 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-133.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 01:09:26 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 01:11:59 good night 01:12:22 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2483.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:12:35 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:13:33 -!- tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit ["leaving"] 01:13:46 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:16:13 tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 01:16:22 -!- tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:16:34 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2483.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:32 serichsen: night 01:21:28 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:25:43 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:14 -!- demmel [n=demmel@dslb-188-098-219-240.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 01:27:20 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 01:28:18 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:29:01 tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 01:30:00 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:30:45 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:52 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2483.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:31:44 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:31:52 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 01:34:32 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 01:34:52 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:36:31 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:11 -!- jao [n=jao@31.Red-83-33-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:38:08 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-139-131.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:26 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:43:20 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:43:41 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:45:05 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:18 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-105-177.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:02 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@204.52.135.62] has quit ["leaving"] 01:47:54 knob [n=anon@65-23-218-38.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:14 Good evening everyone =) 01:49:54 gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 01:50:19 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:52:23 chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-73-92-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:09 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:55:21 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:03:21 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:03:43 I have 5-6 cron jobs... is there a way to drop them into a script, so I can run that one script? 02:03:47 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:50 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:04:04 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 02:04:16 how's that on topic? 02:05:36 stassats`: maybe it's a cron for Genera? 02:05:52 stassats`: script....written in lisp? :) 02:06:25 cron written in lisp? 02:06:26 also, why the hell combine several cron jobs into one script? if they are separate, then there was possibly a reason for that, ne? 02:07:19 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 02:08:57 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-bvfxwwmifnarztga] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:10:00 Sorry,... just starting in LISP, not sure what I need... reading some stuff here... =) 02:10:07 thanks for the help so far! :) 02:10:55 Lisp... 02:11:28 knob: sorry for the response, but it really didn't look like on topic xD so, writing cron jobs in lisp? 02:12:31 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:13:14 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:13:40 p_l, it's all good. I dunno.. I don't know even if... It's just that I'm starting with LISP, and something with cronjobs is in the ToDo list. I just smudged it up 02:14:44 -!- prip [n=_prip@host100-132-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:15:05 prip [n=_prip@host144-9-dynamic.7-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 02:16:49 minion: clhs status 02:16:50 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 02:17:21 minion: Are you made from pure evil? 02:17:22 yes 02:17:32 ... hmmm 02:17:36 And that explains the problem. 02:17:55 pure evil, then he is quite close to being a human... :P 02:18:20 minion: are you a furniture? 02:18:21 no 02:19:43 minion: are you lying? 02:19:44 no 02:20:10 Jasko2: it means that he is still better than humans :P 02:21:50 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:22:35 clhs status 02:22:35 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for status. 02:22:52 ah, specbot. You and minion should merge someday 02:23:23 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:23:24 huangjs [n=user@192.51.54.129] has joined #lisp 02:26:19 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-105-177.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:26:55 minion: are you minion ? 02:26:55 no 02:27:10 minion: are you specbot ? 02:27:11 no 02:27:58 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.253.128] has joined #lisp 02:34:49 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:35:01 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:35:35 meingbg [n=meingbg@173.45.238.108] has joined #lisp 02:36:07 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 02:36:14 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:37:38 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:39:40 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:41:20 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:45:24 drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:47 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rbydwkajgwkvdheh] has joined #lisp 02:53:03 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Client Quit] 02:54:30 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 02:54:34 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.253.128] has quit [Success] 02:56:11 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 02:59:08 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:02:09 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:09 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173.45.238.108] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:10:52 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:00 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-71-59-210-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:12:15 BrianRice [n=water@c-71-59-210-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:01 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 03:21:53 ahaas [n=user@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:29 -!- ahaas [n=user@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:29:17 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:31:43 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:08 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 03:32:26 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:38:31 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:48:08 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:48:34 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:50 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 03:50:02 minion: whose minion are you? 03:50:03 why do you want to know? 03:57:10 -!- lat__ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:57:11 -!- peddie_ [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [No route to host] 03:59:18 xan__ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 04:00:03 girzel [n=user@61.51.238.174] has joined #lisp 04:01:38 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@64.79.127.126] has joined #lisp 04:05:03 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:10 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:07:52 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:08:58 -!- knob [n=anon@65-23-218-38.prtc.net] has quit [] 04:09:03 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:09:39 lat__ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 04:12:03 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:14:51 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:15:17 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:15:56 Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 04:20:41 zenbalrog [n=johnnyc@adsl-75-5-181-47.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:53 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:23:40 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:51 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 04:25:18 -!- zenbalrog [n=johnnyc@adsl-75-5-181-47.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Killed by gemini (Requested by panasync)"] 04:27:44 jauaor [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 04:30:09 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit ["off"] 04:30:21 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:30:49 alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:53 -!- xan__ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:36:26 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-221-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:37:06 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-221-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:14 Xof: herep 04:38:12 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 04:38:23 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:42:35 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@64.79.127.126] has quit [] 04:45:07 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-204.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:49:38 -!- lujz` [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-26-210.dynamic.amis.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:50:20 lujz` [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-26-210.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:22 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:24 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:56:33 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:57:00 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:49 htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.224.239] has joined #lisp 05:00:24 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 05:00:25 morning 05:03:23 -!- lujz` [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-26-210.dynamic.amis.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:03:43 lujz` [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-26-210.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 05:03:49 uttumuttu [n=uttelis@tuomi.oulu.fi] has joined #lisp 05:04:08 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:06 hello. there was some lisp idiom for creating (implicitly, at least) an infinite-size list that repeats a single element. what was it again? 05:05:32 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:06:09 that is, x -> (x x x ... x) 05:06:33 sorry, i'm sleep deprived 05:06:45 #1(1 2 #1#)? 05:07:05 Oops. #1=(1 2 #1#) 05:07:43 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:08:02 yeah, recursively defined 05:08:22 It's just a cyclic graph. 05:08:36 aaah yes, i see 05:09:12 alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:14 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-221-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:20:35 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-181-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:14 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 05:21:43 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:22:05 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:22:24 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:32 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:28:52 -!- jauaor [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [] 05:30:35 -!- rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-bdewxovbwgftubne] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:30:55 alexsuraci1 [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:11 sreeram_ [n=sreeram@122.174.128.159] has joined #lisp 05:35:56 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.67.237] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:38:33 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:39:53 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:17 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:40:23 TimoT [n=tt@timo.tml.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 05:40:29 morning. 05:42:33 msingh [n=user@203.171.123.8.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:47:32 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:47:57 A slightly non-trivial question. I'm writing a kind of template code generator for CL. Basically I have a symbolic expression that is used to generate lots of different pieces of code that go to the compiler. The symbolic expression itself may be so complex that it has to be programmatically generated as well (e.g. think hessian of quaternion rotation). Is there a clean way to share the expression between macros "like (generate-func 05:47:57 expr params...)" within the same file. 05:49:30 TimoT: you could store it in a global variable, reused by the macros. Not really clean, but expedient. 05:49:49 with eval-when? 05:49:52 Yes. 05:52:03 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.71.250] has joined #lisp 05:52:30 ok thx, I'll try that first. This code generating code is making my LOC-productivity plummet ;) 05:56:14 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 05:58:17 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:58:46 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:07 now where is beach... 06:00:06 -!- sreeram_ [n=sreeram@122.174.128.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:00:12 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:00:27 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 06:01:32 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:01:59 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:19 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:03:21 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 06:03:59 ok 06:04:17 ((lambda (f) (f f)) (lambda (g) (+ 1 g))) 06:04:18 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:04:23 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:04:47 does the above -- at least implicitly -- evaluate to (+ 1 (+ 1 (+ 1 ... )))? 06:05:05 uttumuttu: No. The function F is undefined. 06:05:12 (This is not #scheme). 06:05:35 f undefined? 06:05:47 that's common lisp afair 06:06:03 -!- lat__ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:06:09 And you don't have a REPL to try it out? *** - EVAL: undefined function F 06:06:45 (defun f (x) (print (list 'hi 'i 'am 'in 'f x))) 06:06:58 now your expression -> (HI I AM IN F #) 06:07:11 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:42 Do you see why? 06:08:19 whaaaat 06:08:41 i thought (lambda (f) (f f)) was a basic idiom for evaluating a function on itself 06:08:51 Not in Common Lisp. 06:08:55 This is not #scheme. 06:09:12 a function named by a symbol is different from the value referred to by a symbol 06:09:15 HG` [n=HG@89.166.247.222] has joined #lisp 06:09:24 lisp-1 vs lisp-2 06:09:31 In CL you would have to write: (lambda (f) (funcall f f)) 06:09:41 aaah yes the funcall thingie 06:09:49 well 06:10:26 Now what is (+ 1 #) ? An error. 06:10:39 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:12:25 so, how about ((lambda (f) (funcall f f)) (lambda (g) (+ 1 g)))? 06:12:38 i'm sorry, i'm being an ass 06:13:38 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:14:00 So how would you make it at leat run without an error? 06:14:30 And remember that your REPL is there for the "how about" questions... 06:17:49 bbl 06:18:09 ASau [n=user@host212-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 06:20:45 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:21:12 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-159-45-244.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:22:08 aerique [i=euqirea@194.109.21.3] has joined #lisp 06:23:13 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:23:27 kwertii [n=kwertii@67.180.202.175] has joined #lisp 06:23:44 meingbg 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mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:08:01 good morning 07:09:47 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.71.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:10:04 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:10:05 ln5 [n=Adium@193.11.3.30] has joined #lisp 07:12:02 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 07:12:56 prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:06 aja [n=aja@68.151.58.116] has joined #lisp 07:18:46 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 07:19:17 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:19:50 plage [n=user@90-227-107-28-no34.business.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:19:53 Good morning! 07:20:01 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 07:21:19 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-105-80.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:21:45 jan247_ [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 07:21:56 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:22:24 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:22:43 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:23:04 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 07:25:06 hello plage 07:27:31 vy [n=user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has joined #lisp 07:27:46 vy pasted "Calling MeTiS from SBCL" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85716 07:28:42 Can anybody help me with above SBCL alien function call problem? 07:29:52 ASau` [n=user@host212-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:31:15 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:31:21 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcf235.osnanet.de] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:31:21 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:31:21 -!- ASau [n=user@host212-230-msk.microtest.ru] has 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[n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:54 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 07:31:54 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 07:31:54 phadthai [i=mmondor@66.11.161.166] has joined #lisp 07:31:54 Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-207-110.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:54 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 07:31:54 TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has joined #lisp 07:31:54 sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 07:31:54 Lucia_ [n=Lucia@148.Red-79-148-241.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:54 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 07:31:54 russell_ [n=russell_@bonneville.tdb.com] has joined #lisp 07:31:54 easyE [i=[XEYHAIZ@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 07:32:10 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 07:33:12 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 07:33:40 hey mvilleneuve 07:34:32 -!- Adamant 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[n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:30:58 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:31:55 good morning 08:32:29 ASau [n=user@host212-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 08:33:07 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 08:35:19 -!- ASau [n=user@host212-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:35:23 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 08:35:30 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.212] has joined #lisp 08:36:58 i need a sanity check 08:37:03 what if macros were able to know what is the macro's continuation? 08:37:14 and implement generators/coroutines that way? 08:37:35 or free-form setq's? 08:39:20 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@dxb-as47475.alshamil.net.ae] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:39:51 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 08:41:37 I think that continuation does not make sense there, but a macro should be able to include the remainder of the block it is in. 08:43:45 yeah 08:46:32 -!- qidush [n=qidush@c83-252-27-42.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:46:50 Reav___ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 08:47:05 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:47:20 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 08:47:24 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-181-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:40 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32EC37.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:57 -!- TimoT [n=tt@timo.tml.hut.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:58:16 Zhivago: this would be contrary to the philosophy of sexps. 08:59:43 Zhivago: weirdo: you can always write (my-progn (my-macro-that-will-get-the-rest) the rest) 09:00:11 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:00:46 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:49 Ogedei` [n=user@e178210038.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:01:49 perhaps. i'll implement a code walker for my toy language anyway, so i could use it to implement coroutines 09:02:26 weirdo: yes, that'd the way. 09:04:07 qebab [i=finnrobi@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 09:07:00 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.134.99] has quit [] 09:07:08 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:07:44 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:13:27 wedgeV [n=wedge@cpe90-146-185-212.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 09:13:35 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:15:32 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:17:13 -!- Ogedei [n=user@e178217081.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:18:31 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:20:12 matley [n=matley@93.68.60.55] has joined #lisp 09:20:52 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:23:28 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 09:25:46 qidush [n=qidush@c83-252-27-42.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:28:58 kkaji` [n=plinka@87.110.231.63] has joined #lisp 09:29:32 -!- kkaji` [n=plinka@87.110.231.63] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:30:40 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:31:12 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 09:35:10 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rbydwkajgwkvdheh] has left #lisp 09:35:38 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-lotathqarkkzgxgq] has joined #lisp 09:36:10 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-192-10.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:37:28 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:37:30 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 09:38:56 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C346.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:39:19 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cpe90-146-185-212.liwest.at] has quit [] 09:39:32 benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-121-222-151-199.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:39:36 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 09:41:15 morning 09:41:36 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-181-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:43:15 hi all 09:44:48 -!- kwertii [n=kwertii@67.180.202.175] has quit ["goodnight"] 09:47:06 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 09:47:35 -!- benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-121-222-151-199.qld.bigpond.net.au] has left #lisp 09:47:48 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:48:54 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:49:21 -!- jan247_ [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [] 09:50:27 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:52:29 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:54:01 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 09:55:52 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B1C32.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:56:16 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:26 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 09:59:50 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:00:21 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:57 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 10:06:09 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-143-218.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:09:32 hi, I saw two form: catch-continuation & catch-continuation-if in the lisp machine manual. I'm wondering if they're useful forms? 10:09:39 ... morning 10:09:55 url: http://common-lisp.net/project/bknr/static/lmman/fd-flo.xml#Dynamic%20Non-Local%20Exits-section 10:10:00 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:10:05 huangjs pasted "catch-continuation & catch-continuation-if" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85721 10:10:42 and I made a quick impl so anybody interested can play with it. 10:13:28 sreeram [n=sreeram@61.247.251.10] has joined #lisp 10:15:18 rdd` [n=user@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:20:19 logBot5282 [n=logBot@59.96.193.108] has joined #lisp 10:21:45 -!- blandest [n=user@79.112.97.191] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:22:24 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 10:22:52 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest77066 10:23:21 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-105-80.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:27:39 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:29:33 -!- girzel [n=user@61.51.238.174] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:33:40 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:33:52 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 10:33:54 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-187-67.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:34:36 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.253.128] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:37:53 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:38:23 htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.224.239] has joined #lisp 10:38:34 serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-189-3.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:44:50 Hun [n=Hun@p4FD3FE71.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:27 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-26-93.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:45:40 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-26-93.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 10:49:10 pipping [n=user@unaffiliated/pipping] has joined #lisp 10:50:49 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-139-131.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 10:55:06 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host61-171-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:56:56 fgtech [n=federico@host61-171-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:57:02 rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 10:58:11 jao [n=jao@31.Red-83-33-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:14 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec`afk 11:00:25 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:00:46 meingbg [n=meingbg@173.45.238.108] has joined #lisp 11:10:33 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.253.128] has joined #lisp 11:15:24 -!- matley [n=matley@93.68.60.55] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:22:33 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 11:25:53 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 11:27:39 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:27:40 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173.45.238.108] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:27:58 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:35 -!- logBot5282 [n=logBot@59.96.193.108] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:33:42 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 11:36:31 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 11:36:57 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-lotathqarkkzgxgq] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:39:39 pdenno [n=pdenno@bigfuzz.mxnet.mel.nist.gov] has joined #lisp 11:44:51 hey, can someone explain what a method combination is? 11:45:14 -!- vy [n=user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has left #lisp 11:45:51 it's how the applicable methods are combined! there's the standard method combination w/ :before, :around, :after, then you have the :PROGN method combination, the :APPEND, :+, etc. 11:46:13 what they do is to run the methods with that method as the "sequencing operation" 11:46:18 weirdo: did that make sense to you? (it does make sense, but does it make sense to *you*) 11:47:36 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node287.html has a list and a description of the semantics. 11:48:01 -!- Guest77066 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 11:48:03 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:48:15 tic: have you searched for that, or did you just know what it was called? 11:49:01 madnificent, searched for what? (I've read Keene and The AMOP, so I knew about it beforehand, making it easy to find the CLtL1 link) 11:49:43 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-73-92-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 11:50:15 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:50:25 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 11:50:34 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 11:53:01 logBot9047 [n=logBot@59.92.164.12] has joined #lisp 11:53:05 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:53:39 tic: ah, like that :) 11:53:46 I should read Keene, I guess 11:54:20 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host61-171-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:54:42 kkaji` [n=plinka@87.110.231.63] has joined #lisp 11:54:54 fgtech [n=federico@host61-171-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:55:02 and spend more time reading AMOP. Last time I thought about it, I couldn't figure out (in my head) how I'd make (generic) methods of a different class 11:55:14 Please help me - http://www.lostworlds.lv/go.php?1139723800 11:55:15 -!- kkaji` [n=plinka@87.110.231.63] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:55:17 madnificent, it's a good book for really understanding CLOS. While the example is so-so (a lock implementation), it does give you good discussion on the choices made when the protocol was designed. Easy-to-read, a good book to read. 11:55:18 jan247 [n=jan247@112.198.164.165] has joined #lisp 11:55:45 madnificent, I think switching between AMOP and Keene is a good way to read the texts. 11:57:10 I've read AMOP, so I probably read Keene and skip back in AMOP to get it in my head correctly 11:57:35 chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-73-92-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:18 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:24 I never finished the entire AMOP. Found it more of a book to look things up in rather than back-to-back reading. 11:59:54 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@office.osgdc.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:59:56 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 12:00:06 isn't that what the dictionary is supposed to be for/ 12:00:22 s/\//? 12:00:46 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-73-92-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:01:12 madnificent, I mean that the book as whole is more of a dictionary than Keene is. 12:01:56 xan__ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:02:26 ah right 12:02:45 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 12:03:50 (incf (motivation *madnificent* (goal:read 'book:keene))) 12:04:18 I think I read it at Roskilde Festival last year. :-) 12:04:24 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-160-162-13.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:04:39 people looked at me strangely... 12:04:43 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 12:05:15 :P 12:08:22 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.224.239] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:08:40 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:09:51 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:10:15 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:23 s0ber [i=pie@114-45-227-228.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:47 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:13:20 benny` [n=benny@i577A1D2C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:16:12 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:18:29 dwh [n=dwh@ppp121-44-203-158.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:36 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp121-44-203-158.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:19:03 dwh [n=dwh@ppp121-44-203-158.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:21 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp121-44-203-158.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:19:42 dwh [n=dwh@ppp121-44-203-158.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:49 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.58.5] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:19:49 -!- emit [n=user@unaffiliated/emit] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:19:49 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:19:49 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:19:49 -!- guenthr [n=unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:19:49 -!- Tril [n=tril@bespin.org] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:19:49 -!- l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:19:49 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:19:49 -!- krappie [n=brain@mx.skitzo.org] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:19:49 -!- gz [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:19:49 -!- Borbus [i=borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:19:49 -!- pragma_ [n=pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:19:49 -!- kuwabara1 [n=kuwabara@84.14.121.138] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:19:49 -!- bob_f [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:19:49 -!- jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:19:49 -!- JeLuF [i=jf@mormo.org] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:19:49 krappie [n=brain@mx.skitzo.org] has joined #lisp 12:19:49 guenthr [n=unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has joined #lisp 12:19:49 jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 12:19:49 pragma__ [n=pragma@blackshell.com] has joined #lisp 12:19:49 Borbus [i=borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:50 bob_f [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 12:19:54 l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 12:19:55 JeLuF [i=jf@217.160.223.215] has joined #lisp 12:19:57 gz [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:20:23 kuwabara1 [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.net] has joined #lisp 12:20:45 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:21:00 When I read Keene I was saying to myself 'well, obviously' all the way through; then realised that, actually, it was showing quite a different approach to OO than the other treatments I'd read. Worth reading. 12:21:44 gigamonkey [n=user@99.24.221.30] has joined #lisp 12:22:17 hey, gigamonkey. 12:22:34 splittist, yup. 12:22:35 huangjs` [n=user@p2162-ipbf6607marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:23:52 tic, thank you 12:24:41 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:24:41 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:24:41 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host61-171-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:24:41 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:24:41 -!- rdd` [n=user@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:24:41 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-143-218.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:24:41 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:24:41 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into a new Lisp book, now that CaW is more-or-less out? 12:25:42 *tic* pushes. :) 12:25:54 -!- bob_f [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:25:54 -!- logBot9047 [n=logBot@59.92.164.12] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:25:54 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:25:54 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:25:54 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:25:54 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@190.137.197.203] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:25:54 -!- pbusser3 [n=peter@82.174.238.138] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:25:54 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:25:54 -!- gonzojive [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:25:54 -!- Bootvis [i=bob@baltar.lan.endoria.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:25:54 -!- cods [n=cods@tuxee.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:25:54 -!- hohum [n=dcorbe@206.71.169.115] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:25:55 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:25:55 -!- cmeme [n=cmeme@boa.b9.com] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:25:55 -!- egn [i=tux@nodes.fm] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:25:55 -!- Kirklander [n=Kirkland@174-143-212-242.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:25:55 give him a chance to pick out his new Gulfstream, at least (; 12:26:01 My current thinking is to write a short book looking at the internals of (probably) CL-PPCRE. 12:26:03 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host61-171-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:26:04 fgtech [n=federico@host61-171-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:26:18 Then I'll probably publish it with Booksurge as an experiment. 12:26:18 -!- huangjs` [n=user@p2162-ipbf6607marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has left #lisp 12:26:19 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:26:46 Lulu-ish, I take it? 12:26:52 oooh 12:27:05 bob_f [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 12:27:05 logBot9047 [n=logBot@59.92.164.12] has joined #lisp 12:27:05 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 12:27:05 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 12:27:05 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 12:27:05 Tordek [n=tordek@190.137.197.203] has joined #lisp 12:27:05 pbusser3 [n=peter@82.174.238.138] has joined #lisp 12:27:05 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 12:27:05 gonzojive [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 12:27:05 Bootvis [i=bob@baltar.lan.endoria.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:05 cods [n=cods@tuxee.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:05 hohum [n=dcorbe@206.71.169.115] has joined #lisp 12:27:05 Kirklander [n=Kirkland@174-143-212-242.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 12:27:05 cmeme [n=cmeme@boa.b9.com] has joined #lisp 12:27:05 egn [i=tux@nodes.fm] has joined #lisp 12:27:05 jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:27:08 tic: yeah, but affiliated with Amazon. 12:27:20 gigamonkey: that is pretty cool. i learned a lot from reading cl-ppcre. 12:27:24 Plus Lulu isn't as Luluish as it was a few years ago when I last looked at it. 12:27:31 -!- guenthr [n=unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:27:31 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:27:31 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-cekfetzwabxzdgbc] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:27:31 -!- msingh 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gigamonkey-exposition could only make it sexier 12:28:06 (where affiliated with means owned by - which can't be bad) 12:28:15 guenthr [n=unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has joined #lisp 12:28:15 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:28:15 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-cekfetzwabxzdgbc] has joined #lisp 12:28:15 msingh [n=user@203.171.123.8.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:28:15 uttumuttu [n=uttelis@tuomi.oulu.fi] has joined #lisp 12:28:15 drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:28:15 Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 12:28:15 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 12:28:15 ojuice [i=ojuice@209.164.37.111.static.sna.hosting.com] has joined #lisp 12:28:15 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 12:28:15 erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 12:28:15 wasabi_____ 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-!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-126-175.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:29:16 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:29:16 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@adsl-75-34-100-218.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:29:16 -!- vcgomes [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:29:16 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:29:16 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:29:16 -!- slava [n=slava@li13-154.members.linode.com] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:29:16 -!- PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:29:16 Basically with Booksurge you get 35% royalties on all books sold through Amazon. And 10% for books sold elsewhere. 12:29:23 I printed a book (On Lisp) using Lulu about a year ago. Worked fine, but then I just did it for myself, so I can't say anything how it'd be for someone publishing things. 12:29:25 krappie [n=brain@mx.skitzo.org] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 pdenno [n=pdenno@bigfuzz.mxnet.mel.nist.gov] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 toxygen [i=toxygen@stip-static-98.213-81-186.telecom.sk] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 maxote [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-148-132-231.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 thatdavidmiller [n=david@87-194-167-91.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 azuk` [i=azure@s2.org] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 housel [n=user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 luis [n=user@r42.eu] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 ski [n=slj@c-9011e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 acieroid [n=acieroid@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 jyujin [n=mdeining@vs166245.vserver.de] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 turbo24prg [n=turbo24p@mail.turbolent.com] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 kei [n=gueorgui@gmt.su] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 rapacity [n=prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 Xach [n=xach@207.5.178.18] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 Guest497` [n=user@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 12:29:28 Whereas a normal publisher pays around 10% for everything. 12:29:39 gigamonkey, that's a good deal! Amazon globally or just US? 12:29:43 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@61.247.251.10] has quit [] 12:29:51 jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 12:29:51 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:29:51 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.253.128] has joined #lisp 12:29:51 jao [n=jao@31.Red-83-33-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:51 pipping [n=user@unaffiliated/pipping] has joined #lisp 12:29:51 Hun [n=Hun@p4FD3FE71.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:51 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:29:51 Ogedei` [n=user@e178210038.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:29:51 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:29:51 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 12:29:51 alexsuraci1 [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:51 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 12:29:51 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:51 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 12:29:51 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:51 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:29:51 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 12:29:51 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 12:29:51 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-126-175.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 12:29:51 djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 12:29:51 alexbobp [n=alex@adsl-75-34-100-218.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:51 vcgomes [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 12:29:51 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 12:29:51 ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:51 slava [n=slava@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 12:29:51 PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 12:29:53 meingbg [n=meingbg@173.45.238.108] has joined #lisp 12:29:55 Dunno about that. My guess is globally. 12:30:01 I really like that idea. In so far as programming is like programming, the last person you want to provide exegesis is the poet him/herself. Separate the 'Literate' from the 'Programming' -> ??? -> profit! 12:30:16 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:30:43 Sure, where ??? is "Win the Lottery". 12:30:55 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 12:30:57 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 12:31:15 Why does my shiny new Emacs 23 keep screwing up the contents of my buffer? 12:31:57 -!- chii [i=chii@freenode/bot/chii] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:32:21 gigamonkey: overlay problems? loading old, unnecessary .el's? 12:32:53 -!- xan__ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:33:13 Guest91968 [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-161.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:33:24 the shiny-new is oft enough is the broken-ass 12:33:55 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:26 -!- Guest91968 [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-161.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:34:46 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-161.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:35:27 xan_ [n=xan@62.78.225.40] has joined #lisp 12:36:01 gigamonkey: emacs23 doesn't play nice with XGL/Compiz 12:36:28 -!- sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-161.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:36:30 dlowe: ah. So just turn off Compiz? 12:36:42 gigamonkey: also, if you use the daemon mode, you'll notice that show-paren-mode has to be activated every time you reconnect to it 12:37:00 gigamonkey: yeah, I had major headaches with it until I did that 12:37:31 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-161.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:37:33 dlowe: you don't know how to turn of Compiz on Ubunu (9.) do you? 12:37:47 gigamonkey, preferences -> appearance I think 12:37:48 gigamonkey: System>Preferences>Appearance 12:38:01 gigamonkey: it'd be great to see a bunch of treatments like that, in the way that chess Grandmasters annotate games. Create a brand that links with your about-to-be-really-famous C@W, let others do the work and collect a royalty... KMP does JodaTime; DHH does Eliza; Steele does TeX... 12:38:05 gigamonkey: Visual Effects>None 12:38:09 -!- Ogedei` [n=user@e178210038.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:38:14 Cool, that was actually my guess. 12:38:18 or export WINDOW_MANAGER=$HOME/local/bin/stumpmw in ~/.gnomerc. :-) 12:38:25 gigamonkey: you can have the basic effects (drop shadows, true transparency) still 12:38:34 tiling window managers are overrated 12:38:43 even CL tiling window managers 12:38:47 run gconf-editor, then enable compositing_manager under /apps/metacity/general 12:38:57 proper wm keyboard navigation is most definitely not. 12:39:00 I actually long for the days of my old fvwm2 with xsnow running all the time. 12:39:06 gigamonkey, so replace it. 12:39:08 -!- benny` is now known as benny 12:39:12 gigamonkey: still works :) 12:39:16 dlowe: I tried stump a few days ago, didn't work out. By which I mean it broke horribly 12:39:25 Yeah. But I'm lazy. 12:39:52 If I was on desktop, I'd probably still be running fvwm2 12:40:11 I was quite proud of my little hack that ran xsnow so that santa only came out during December. 12:40:16 I find metacity Just Works most of the time. Which is the goal incidentally 12:40:21 *Xach* has fond memories of installing fvwm2 in his nfs-mounted, quota-restricted university home directory so he could run it on the sun4/110s in the lab 12:40:28 fsvo "works", mathrick :) 12:40:40 tic: sure, but it does for me 12:40:45 xemacs and emacs appear to have really diverged, I seem to recall them being close not long ago 12:41:09 one that is still really, really broken is proper multihead support. Not as really broken as it was a few years ago, but it still sucks royally 12:41:21 especially if you don't have identical monitors 12:41:33 Hmmm. I must be old school; I actually like things better without even the moderate level of visual effects I had on before. 12:41:51 Lycurgus: Xemacs is like a decade behind 12:41:53 mathrick, works good here on 1920x1200 + 1200x1600 what's your problem? 12:41:54 i still use fvwm as my main desktop 12:42:03 mathrick: some people got great idea of "let's have X act like windows" 12:42:03 it was so bad that I opted to work on my 1024x768 laptop display only instead of putting up with the whole brokenness involved in making it work multihead with a 22" panel 12:42:25 Enable Xinerama, let happyness ensue. :) 12:42:27 tic: first of all, it doesn't restrict undisplayed areas for the moust pointeer 12:42:40 so most of the time I'd be wandering off the screen 12:43:00 tcr: yes I see that now, xemacs has gone for more ancillary rather than the core functional enhancements such as those in recent emacs 12:43:01 Not in Xinerama. Maybe w/ nVidias twinview. 12:44:00 *p_l* had it working nice when he used classic multihead. And lost long time trying to make the "modern" single-framebuffer model work with XRandR1.2 12:44:36 Ah, p_l. The final update on the typesetting of Coders at Work: 12:44:47 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173.45.238.108] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:45:13 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:20 They chose several somewhat unorthodox design choices but they seem to actually have chosen them and claim that it will help the book sell. 12:45:38 tic pasted "xorg.conf" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85729 12:46:33 As far as I can tell, they really did it in Word but since one of their choices was to set it ragged right, the lack of good linebreaking matters less. 12:47:45 tic: xinerama is so passe. XRandR is where it is now 12:48:30 config files are passe as well. nowadays you only need to configure the maximum size you are anticipating 12:48:38 mathrick, not supported with nvidia drivers, /however/, with xinerama you do get non-broken mouse areas. ;) 12:48:39 which is silly 12:48:50 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:48:53 (i.e., I don't really care about which one's newest, as long as it works) 12:48:55 because I need to restart each time I want to hotplug a monitor I haven't used before 12:49:04 yes 12:49:06 tic: aha 12:49:19 well, what GNOME uses is xrandr, and there it sucks 12:49:21 okay, for hotplugging it might be troublesome. I never do that. 12:49:35 guaqua: I don't even get why it's needed, and why the whole protocol is so horrible 12:49:38 so skip the middle man and write your own xorg.conf 12:49:49 gnome doesn't write an xorg.conf 12:49:59 gnome-display-properties determines the virtual desktop size by grepping xorg.conf for VirtualResolution, FFS 12:50:04 guaqua: does too 12:50:08 oh, okay 12:50:57 tic: which buys me nothing, since 1) I am honestly not interested in conf files, why should I need them at all 2) that fixes hotplugging how exactly? 12:51:02 well, xorg doesn't really need it in most cases. neither does xrandr. it's just that if you want a higher desktop total resolution than it is anticipating (and xorg deduced at its startup) you need to have it set in xorg.conf 12:51:14 yes, which is the dumb part 12:51:19 why can't it resize on the fly? 12:51:27 i have no clue :) 12:51:29 it's some stupid hidden variable that only serves to get in your way 12:51:34 it has literally no other use 12:51:44 yep 12:52:04 and if you set it too high, your video driver barfs and falls back on indirect GL 12:52:15 which is loads of fun in a composited desktop 12:52:57 xan__ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:54:03 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 12:54:06 Wow, where's Xach when you need a channel brought back on topic? 12:54:16 X11ach? 12:54:38 *Xach* is retired 12:54:48 The most profound thing from CLOS/MOP, imho, is the idea of a class as a description rather than a prescription. 12:54:57 I've been watching the Stack Overflow feed for questions tagged "Common Lisp" 12:55:03 Zhivago, indeed. 12:55:12 they all seem really awful to me so far. the latest one was: "What mnemonic do you use to remember what CAR and CDR mean?" 12:55:37 Heh. 12:55:44 Xach: zen have a little nap... and zen fire re missiles! 12:55:50 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:56:05 primalux [n=sdf@74.55.236.186] has joined #lisp 12:56:20 Zhivago: I'm not sure how you mean descriptive/prescriptive. You've referred to that before, but that's not clear to me 12:56:24 -!- xan_ [n=xan@62.78.225.40] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:56:27 Xach: I haven't been too impressed with stackoverflow in general. Seems like a bunch of people too lazy to use google meeting people who have too much time. 12:56:38 mathrick: Consider a system without classes, such as C. 12:56:43 dlowe: yahoo answers for programmers 12:56:46 I'm impressed with the site software itself, though 12:56:48 Zhivago: sure 12:56:56 mathrick: Now consider how you could implement classes for it. 12:57:03 mathrick: Start with 'int'. 12:57:10 Zhivago: you're getting at the class / method distinction perhaps? 12:57:15 dlowe: I dunno, I thought I could help out. Whenever I see something interesting, though, it has 5 answers, and Rainer Joswig's is #1. 12:57:15 No. 12:57:16 class / GF really 12:57:17 ok 12:57:19 I guess lispm has too much time. 12:57:34 Or imagine a pre-clos lisp system. 12:57:35 -!- primalux [n=sdf@74.55.236.186] has quit [] 12:57:42 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 12:57:51 Zhivago: depends on what you want the system to do 12:57:56 gigamonkey: you rang 12:58:16 but in C, you generally go with structs + functions (perhaps function pointers for vtables) + macros to make it a bit nicer 12:58:19 mathrick: Not really -- the important thing is that you can get a description of how an object is implemented from that object. 12:58:34 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:58:43 Zhivago: as, so what's normally called introspection? 12:59:09 what happens when a gensym is proclaimed special? does it go away with GC? 12:59:13 mathrick: Sure. 12:59:36 Zhivago: that's a very important point, yes 12:59:38 weirdo: Depends on if it is interned. 12:59:54 another is the separation of data and behaviour with the class / GF distinction 12:59:59 Xach: i don't blame the asker... the number of car and cdr uses in our, let's say, 100-200 k lines of cl code is most probably below 100 13:00:08 Zhivago: if it's interned, it's not really a "gensym" 13:00:21 mathrick: In any case, if classes are descriptions, then you can produces classes for objects after those objects have already been created. 13:00:35 attila_lendvai: CAR and CDR are perfectly fine functions you simply remember 13:00:47 you can remember that A is before D if you really need to have a mnemonic 13:00:51 mathrick: The class and the construction machinery are now logically separate. 13:00:58 attila_lendvai: but isn't it a basic notion, a bit (no pun intended) like asking 'how do I remember what 1 and 0 mean in binary'? 13:01:25 Zhivago: right, but in CLOS proper, you can't really assign a class to an object without touching it 13:01:29 mathrick: i don't have issues remembering it. i just wanted to point out that the importance of car/cdr/cons is less than advertised... 13:01:31 Zhivago, by "gensym" i mean "uninterned symbol" 13:01:35 mathrick: That's completely the wrong way to think about it. 13:01:37 Ah Xof, I had a question about org-mode. 13:01:44 mathrick: You don't assign classses to objects. 13:01:47 Do you just use the one that comes with emacs-23? 13:01:50 attila_lendvai: you also have #t and #f macros, so I submit your tastes are skewed :) 13:01:58 i mean, does sbcl keep a list of variables proclaimed special in a global database or do they go away when the symbols go away? 13:02:04 mathrick: You establish a relationship between instances and classes via class-of, etc. 13:02:13 gigamonkey: actually, at the moment, I use a slightly earlier one (the one in Ubuntu's org-mode package as of 9.04) 13:02:15 Zhivago: sure, but that's what I mean 13:02:25 Zhivago: CLOS doesn't have structural subtyping 13:02:38 mathrick: Again irrelevant. 13:02:48 then I don't see what your point is 13:02:58 mathrick: Once classes are descriptions, you no-longer have 'the class of the object'. 13:03:07 <_3b> weirdo: sbcl probably uses up a special slot even if it doesn't remember the symbol 13:03:13 mathrick: i prefer code readability over many things... washing together nil/false hurts code readability badly. imho, that is. 13:03:25 Zhivago: sure. And you say how you like it in CLOS, but that's absent from it 13:03:27 mathrick: You have 'the class that I am using to describe this object' -- consider my-class-of running in parallel with class-of. 13:03:34 ok 13:03:36 Xof: ah. 13:03:37 mathrick: What is absent from it? 13:04:09 the descriptive approach to classes vs. object. CLOS has no operator to ask "is this object described by that class?" 13:04:26 mathrick: You don't need one. 13:04:35 *splittist* FWIW, uses 6.28e 13:04:37 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:04:39 mathrick: You just need an operator to find a description, given an object. 13:05:03 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:04 attila_lendvai: that's like, totally your opinion man 13:05:07 mathrick: I don't know why you're getting that relationship backward. 13:05:18 gigamonkey: Ubuntu at least calls it version 6.14 13:05:20 personally I hate #t and #f and consider them very unreadable 13:05:52 mathrick: well, here... just ask people at #scheme, or somewhere outside #lisp... :) 13:05:54 Zhivago: okay, so I agree that introspection is very important and useful 13:06:13 attila_lendvai: note we're talking about "here"'s code, written in CL 13:06:32 #scheme's opinion has absolutely no bearing on my choice 13:06:32 s 13:06:33 attila: What if nil were separated from ()? 13:06:47 I don't mind #t, #f, I'd probably add #none 13:06:53 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:07:52 mathrick: well, i don't. just because i use CL full-time currently, it doesn't mean that i'm accepting it as The Answer without questioning decisions The Standard, etc... 13:08:15 (In Common Lisp, adding them is an abomination, though) 13:09:10 attila_lendvai: neither do I. But I disagree with #scheme's opinion on booleans and happen to agree with CL 13:09:14 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 13:09:41 Zhivago: as i only use singly linked lists where they are appropriate, i don't really meet the 'nil is washed together with the empty list' issue that often. therefore i didn't even think too much about the pros/cons... 13:10:17 attila: So, what is the problem with nil, in your opinion? 13:10:24 you must consider the conses 13:10:38 hey attila_lendvai you also have your awesome define macro as well, so i wonder how you can say that you "use" cl 13:11:04 segv [n=mb@p4FC1B454.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:06 Zhivago: nothing. my problem is that using the letters nil to mean false in source code hurts readability. no more, no less. 13:11:18 Xach: you're going to burn in the special section of hell, y'know? 13:11:42 attila_lendvai: but why? 13:12:03 attila: Fair enough. Sometimes I think that python's choice of True and False was good. 13:12:18 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Success] 13:12:22 crod: simply: i use the awesome compiler that it (well, sbcl) provides, and build stuff on it. 13:12:54 *gigamonkey* prefers Java's choice of "true" and "false" lowercase FTW! 13:13:12 as opposed to 't' and 'nil'? 13:13:14 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:13:18 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 13:13:28 *rsynnott* thinks python's 'True' and 'False' are pretty dreadful :) 13:13:29 No, as opposed to True and False. 13:13:32 ah 13:13:35 lack of separate empty-list and false values hurts serialization to/from langugaes that make the distinction 13:13:47 False, None and []. Yum. 13:13:49 -!- xan__ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:13:51 like json (not really a programming language) or sql 13:13:54 I do sometimes think languages should avoid making one-letter names special. 13:13:57 mathrick: why what? why do i mind that when someone writes nil in the source code, i have 3 options on how to interpret it and i need to check the context to chose the right one? 13:14:02 *weirdo* always types (not (endp ...)) anyway 13:14:02 tic: Don't forget Maybe. 13:14:17 but my first elisp code did (defun foo nil ...) :) 13:14:22 weirdo: many things hurt serialisation to/from languages that made different choices 13:14:42 Zhivago, wrong language! 13:14:57 tic: Just wait until you get a type system :) 13:14:59 Zhivago, I quite like Maybe though. 13:15:05 serialization to other languages is about the last thing i consider in such decisions 13:19:22 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host61-171-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:20:24 would anyone know where I could find a simple (but complete) explaination of how Hindley-Milner type inference works ? 13:20:34 (and/or how to implement it) 13:20:45 lambda-the-ultimate.org should have a bunch of nice references. 13:21:07 Zhivago: I'll take a look, thanks! 13:22:44 mvilleneuve: Martin Sulzmann's HM(X) papers show algorithms that split constraint generation and solving (in your case, unification). I believe that split makes things clearer. 13:23:10 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:24:12 gigamonkey: did you mention typesetting in word? 13:24:22 madnificent: I did. 13:24:36 *madnificent* runs around in circles pulling his hair out 13:25:06 *madnificent* has hurt himself and gets a coffee 13:25:08 mvilleneuve: people say that TAPL is a book worth reading, it most probably discusses that, too 13:25:08 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 13:26:05 novaburst [i=nova@sourcemage/mage/novaburst] has joined #lisp 13:26:19 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #lisp 13:26:31 madnificent: though as I mentioned, if you're setting ragged right and using a font where ligatures aren't crucial, maybe it's not so bad. 13:26:44 I encourage you to buy a copy of Coders at Work to find out. ;-) 13:27:21 don't forget to turn kerning on 13:27:25 gigamonkey: Founders at Work had occasional typographic problems, like not having the names in bold 13:27:43 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.15] has joined #lisp 13:28:01 gigamonkey: did it survive the word-typesetting in the end? :) 13:28:08 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:28:22 gigamonkey: I'll probably buy it if I can ever afford it... I liked your writing style in the past 13:28:25 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:28:26 Yeah. I'm pretty sure those should be minimized in Coders. The one advantage of them using Word is that I could continue to back out from Word to my text-based markup and check things with code. 13:28:33 (That was to Xach.) 13:28:52 meingbg [n=meingbg@173.45.238.108] has joined #lisp 13:28:53 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 13:29:22 For instance, I had some Lisp to check that the speaker names alternated between exactly two names. 13:29:29 gigamonkey: but it is rather important to have a font that correctly displays the words... that's the job of the typesetters after all... and I think tex does a better job than word 13:29:32 If one had been unstyled it would have shown up as a missing name. 13:29:59 jauaor [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 13:30:22 madnificent: That's what I believe too but I don't really know enough about it to look at a page and point out all the infelicities. 13:30:39 Maybe Word has gotten better. I don't know. 13:31:00 gigamonkey: look at ee in words, or ss in missing... compare tex with word on that front 13:31:18 madnificent: like I say, turn on kerning 13:31:45 I hate Word as much as the next person, but it is vaguely possible to make it look plausibly typeset 13:31:52 *gigamonkey* is going to assume that they turned on kerning since, as far as he knows, the book is already at the printers. 13:32:02 Xof: is it on par with tex? (not trolling) 13:33:00 attila_lendvai: I was just looking at that book :) 13:33:00 I think word and tex have different audiences. 13:33:01 madnificent: these days, fonts themselves include kerning tables 13:33:04 gigamonkey: this isn't about whether or not the book will be worth it :P 13:33:12 madnificent: right. 13:33:27 both TeX and Word, given the same font, are likely to kern letter pairs the same (of course, often they do not use the same font) 13:33:32 Xof: doesn't that mean that you have a different font for -say- dutch as english? 13:33:56 I'm not aware of locale-sensitive kerning requirements 13:33:58 Thankfully my book contains no Dutch. 13:34:29 Xof: things like ij... in Dutch they should be placed slightly closer together, in english they probably shouldn't 13:35:57 "Which letters need to be kerned depends on the languages the font is to be used with. Some combinations of letters aren't used in normal words in any language, so to include kerning for these combinations isn't necessary." Wikipedia, s.v. Kerning 13:35:57 those small things that Tex handles for you... and it is probably what makes the text easier to read 13:36:35 madnificent: there's English ligatures for ij 13:37:29 I would expect ij to be ligated rather than kerned 13:37:42 also, TeX does not appear to differ in its rendering of ij between english and dutch 13:39:08 Xof: there must be other differences then :) 13:39:46 -!- logBot9047 [n=logBot@59.92.164.12] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:39:52 htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.224.239] has joined #lisp 13:40:09 Look, I never use Word myself if I can help it. But saying "TeX is better" without then being able to back it up is not actually a useful contribution to debate 13:40:27 Xof: ah, it wasn't meant like that 13:40:35 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 13:40:37 I don't know whether or not word does it, I'm thinking it doesn't 13:40:57 what I'm saying is, that there is more than just placing the ligatures correctly 13:41:09 Well, in this case we may get a chance to hear what Donald Knuth thinks of a book typeset in Word. 13:41:13 heh 13:41:37 *gigamonkey* wonders how many of his subjects he could get in one place for a book publication party. 13:41:42 LaTeX places letters within a word closer or further from each other, depending on which characters are to be read as one piece in a certain language 13:42:05 gigamonkey: bound to become a legendary party :P 13:42:50 *Xach* is reminded of http://www.ibiblio.org/Dave/Dr-Fun/df200002/df20000210.jpg 13:42:57 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-143-218.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:44:34 Xach: I'll paste that on my copy of Knuth! :-) 13:45:42 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:44 demmel [n=demmel@d225.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 13:46:40 madnificent: just so you know, XeTeX renders the ij ligature with a very small decrease of the distance between the i and j compared with the ij letter pair 13:47:25 about 1/300 of an inch in cm10, according to a very unscientific measurement I just made 13:47:42 Xach: Strangly that cover isn't so far off what Knuth actually says: "Also, I try to explore the territory in a way that is most relevant to a practical programmer rather than the most academic cachet for getting something published thats theoretically interesting but wouldnt really be used in a real program." 13:47:56 http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/foo.pdf 13:48:19 Xof: and -what i really was trying to figure out- does word do something similar? 13:48:34 I don't know, I don't use Word :-) 13:48:58 if your font has an ij ligature, and you type the character that's an ij ligature, I would expect it to 13:49:55 Xof: to get the ij to space correctly, I _think_ they need to be in a word 13:50:26 what about the poor people who live on the banks of the ij? 13:50:54 They have drugs and sex to make up for it 13:51:07 <3 sex and drugs 13:51:14 and bitterballen! 13:51:23 (no change from previous results in the middle of a word) 13:51:38 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173.45.238.108] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:51:59 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:22 I still wonder whether or not word has something like that... it's not _that_ hard to implement, at least not with their budget 13:52:44 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:53:19 "those ligature glyphs with Unicode codepoints may be inserted manually" says Wikipedia 13:53:28 Microsoft has a history of rather sloppy internationalisation 13:53:33 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.223.221] has joined #lisp 13:53:40 they get it to a usable state, but it's rarely polished 13:54:07 sigh 13:54:31 attila_lendvai: that's why CL gives you the option to write nil as () too. It's enough to disambiguate for the human reader, and having them synonymous has significant practical benefits relating to, you guessed it, readability 13:55:09 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=what%20is%20love%3F 13:55:13 and the distinction between false nil and nothingness nil is so rarely a problem that it doesn't matter at all 13:55:15 oops, wrong window 13:55:50 mathrick: yeah, for the emtpy list... but how does that apply to false/nil? 13:55:52 thanks, now that song is stuck in my head. 13:55:58 rsynnott: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=how+to+program 13:56:43 attila_lendvai: the distinction is almost never an issue. The contexts in which it matters if it's none or not true are very rare in my experience 13:56:51 just pondering... if i was to create a semantics for an evaluator i would have two if's, one for generalized booleans and one strictly for the two well-known true/false values. and let the users chose using whatever namespace system there is... 13:57:41 scheme has readability issues due to all that (not (null lst)) line noise 13:58:01 xan__ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:58:28 I can say just LST in lisp and be done with it, saving me reading two nodes that serve absolutely no purpose 13:58:33 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:58:34 and I can say LIST for that matter 13:58:43 mathrick: what you say is a matter of taste. for me the lack of false/nil distinction is a readability issue... we were using cl for about half a year when we decided to add the trivial reader for #t/#f 13:59:24 attila_lendvai: I know it's a matter of taste, but for me, #t/#f are jarring, and I'm perfectly happy with NIL serving both purposes 13:59:44 mathrick: don't forget, lisp has ways for syntactic abstractions. having too much noise like (not (null lst)) is the programmer's fault... 14:00:07 it isn't, because you just said it was wrong to have it removed 14:00:37 *attila_lendvai* lost the line of reasoning 14:00:41 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:01:07 the point is, I can say (if list ...) in Lisp, but have to say (if (not (null lst) ...) in scheme 14:01:54 I'm a programmer, I have no problem operating on several levels at once. OTOH, my cache is precious, so if you say what you mean in fewer nodes I have to read, the overall readability improves 14:02:07 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:02:11 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:02:15 that, and I missed one ) 14:02:30 mathrick: so what? replace if with whatever semantics you like better... that's the main idea behind lisp! if course within the reasonable set of accepted interpretations of 'if', and if you mix multiple ones around your codebase, then use different names, not the package system to chose between them 14:03:08 s/if course/of course/ :) 14:03:15 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:03:44 *madnificent* doesn't grasp what this discussion is about... haven't you both given an answer? 14:03:55 attila_lendvai: but I don't need to! The CL has already made a choice I perfectly agree with 14:04:01 <_8david> Xach: http://www.lichteblau.com/tmp/stackoverflowlisp.html has a list of lisp-related questions that I found not entirely disastrous 14:04:07 and again, the (if list ...) issue is about generalized booleans. what we introduced didn't change the cl semantics in any way, it's just a trivial reader that helps readability 14:04:08 my abstracton around CL:IF is called CL:IF 14:04:09 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.212] has quit ["off"] 14:04:29 attila_lendvai: helps in your opinion. In mine it hurts readability 14:04:30 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:04:31 that is all 14:06:40 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:06:48 attila_lendvai: are you hinting at fully generalized booleans? As in: allowing any number/object to hold a true/false value. As in: a clos method giving true/false for any argument you give to it? 14:07:42 madnificent: we already have that 14:07:50 nil is false, everything else is true 14:07:54 madnificent: no, i never wished for such semantics 14:08:14 mathrick: yes, but I'd say that it would be definable... for instance: I can say that the number 0 means false too 14:08:35 that'd be harmful 14:08:35 come back, brucio; all is forgiven 14:08:54 madnificnet: That's equality for you -- a kind of categorization problem. 14:08:56 either you'd break other code, or you'd introduce ambiguity 14:09:09 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:28 mathrick: it would be a general solution to the 'a list means false' or 'we need a separate false' 14:10:35 madnificent: it wouldn't be. It would a good way to have fully generalised madness however 14:10:56 madnificent: you could end up with two zeros that are identical, except for their logical value 14:11:03 that'd be insane 14:11:18 mathrick: why? the creator of the class decides if it means true or false... For lists, it will probably be defined 14:12:06 pluto12345 [n=carcola@orange.informatik.hu-berlin.de] has joined #lisp 14:12:10 then it solves nothing 14:12:17 because you can still argue about the default choice 14:12:19 i downloaded and unziped the tar.gz package for cl-graph 14:12:28 how can i now load the library? 14:12:44 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:12:57 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 14:13:01 so that ican access it's functions 14:13:11 madnificent: one thing it'd allow is to have more types appropriate for the (if foo ...) shorthand 14:13:20 that could be possibly beneficial I guess 14:13:56 pluto12345: most probably with ASDF. What's your OS, and youe CL implementation? 14:14:23 suse, clisp, don't have asdf installed, neither root permissions 14:14:51 you can install ASDF locally 14:15:46 pluto12345: you can download and load asdf.lisp to proceed 14:15:50 pluto12345: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/stumpwm.git/tree/README 14:16:14 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-116-100.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:17:40 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Client Quit] 14:17:43 mathrick: which was the goal 14:18:16 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 14:18:19 I wonder why stumpwm doesn't like an sbcl with threads. What would it matter? 14:18:20 madnificent: ok, then I misunderstood you 14:18:30 "is sluggish" 14:18:40 *madnificent* is unclear :) 14:18:42 bugs are like that, they crop up where they shouldn't 14:18:49 otherwise they'd be called features :) 14:18:55 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:19:08 mathrick: thank you Cap. Obvious 14:19:18 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:40 don't mention it 14:19:41 -!- spec`afk is now known as mrSpec 14:19:59 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 14:20:39 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 14:20:41 dlowe: sbcl with threads has a bug, which causes stumpwm to freeze 14:20:42 mathrick: so I guess speculation on the topic of bugs is off-limits then? Oh, it's a bug, so there's no need to think about it. 14:20:44 dlowe: different way to handle signals. 14:20:53 threads are only experimental in sbcl 14:22:06 dlowe: nah 14:25:41 pluto12345: what bug is that? is there a description somewhere? 14:26:14 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-26-144.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:26:18 Zhivago: off the top of your head, do you know whether the number of possible combining character sequences in Unicode is bounded? 14:26:25 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 14:26:25 -!- xan__ is now known as xan_ 14:26:51 I believe so, but I do not know. 14:26:53 Zhivago: or is it possible to construct infinite ligatures or similar? 14:27:10 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:15 jleija: i think sabetts filed a bug report on it more than a year ago 14:27:20 I have not seen any such cases, and I do not believe that they exist, but I do not know this. 14:27:27 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-161.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:27:28 i don't know the details 14:27:29 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 14:28:00 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-26-144.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:29:05 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.15] has quit ["Leaving..."] 14:29:17 Zhivago: thanks 14:29:46 pluto12345: it's a matter of finite preallocated resources. I believe the fix to allow more interrupt contexts can be found somewhere in the docs for stumpwm. 14:29:54 *splittist* wished he know more about Arabic in this context 14:30:31 Arabic is ok, because it has distinct letters even if they join up cursively, and even if they have modifiers. 14:31:11 edwardk_ [i=c72e9a60@gateway/web/freenode/x-tptacppimoxtjmdi] has joined #lisp 14:31:41 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-26-144.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:33:54 And now I do! Thanks (: 14:33:54 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:34:25 -!- ln5 [n=Adium@193.11.3.30] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:34:43 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@70.168.132.106] has joined #lisp 14:35:20 Pip [n=pip@unaffiliated/pip] has joined #lisp 14:35:34 Hello, folks, nice to meet you again 14:35:49 Can I do embedded programming in lisp ? 14:36:26 Like serial port, micro controller thing for industrial process monitoring 14:37:12 I doubt there is a Common Lisp that small. 14:37:39 tic, I just believe that Common Lisp is God 14:37:48 : ) 14:38:07 It's a pity that God is dead. 14:38:08 Pip: sure, there are schemes for PIC, even. There's also picolisp. 14:38:32 Pip, it sure is, but that still doesn't help when you have a system with 16k ROM and 16k RAM. You won't be able to squeeze in all of CL there. There are a bunch of Schemes though, and also, Pico Lisp: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/2124 14:39:25 -!- etpace_ [n=etpace@etpace.eu] has left #lisp 14:39:38 I think Lisp is fully capable to do that since NASA send lisp code to a flying robot remotely in a distance of millions and millions of miles away in the deep space. 14:39:49 *sent 14:40:37 fawxtin [n=user@150.162.165.254] has joined #lisp 14:41:01 Xof: FWIW, one of the 4chan hacks involves stacking combining characters in hundreds, to the extent that it breaks the page layout 14:41:54 4chan is very good at pushing unicode to its limits and employing it in ways definitely not meant originally 14:41:55 Pip: Embedded spans a very large range of computing capabilities, from 4-bit stack machines to P4s. 14:42:45 Pip: and NASA has been trying to get them to redo that in C ever since... 14:43:24 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:43:28 pip: you can always generate your C in Lisp 14:43:29 TuxPurple_ [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 14:44:44 Hmm, interesting 14:45:33 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:13 AgentX [n=x@118.95.41.14] has joined #lisp 14:46:27 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:51:18 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 14:51:33 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:06 -!- prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["leaving"] 14:52:18 -!- TuxPurple_ [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:54:53 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@99.24.221.30] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:56:21 Is CCL the only CL implementation on Windows supporting threads, besides CLISP if I'm not wrong? 14:56:44 -!- demmel [n=demmel@d225.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 14:57:08 AgentX: Corman Lisp supports threads. 14:57:23 tic: There are lisps for very small PIC. 14:57:23 <_3b> ecl? 14:57:25 Ah! Corman. ;) 14:57:36 matimago, Common Lisps? 14:57:40 <_3b> abcl probably does too 14:58:00 Armed Bear? 14:58:36 It wouldn't surprise me if clisp did, also. 14:58:53 I have a little experience with SBCL on Linux and CLISP on Windows. I would like to evaluate CCL on Win32 if it's worth it. 14:59:17 tic: Mu. http://paste.lisp.org/display/84252 14:59:23 CLISP added experimental support in their latest version, I think. 14:59:27 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has left #lisp 14:59:35 tic: http://w3.ift.ulaval.ca/~dadub100/files/picbit.pdf 15:01:04 Any word on CCL's FFI and other supported features? How does it compare against SBCL? 15:02:07 Pip: to embed CL in various places, have a look at ecl (http://ecls.sf.net). 15:02:26 thanks 15:03:03 Yep. ECL is excellent for that task. Now, if only ...Guile ... ;) 15:11:36 -!- GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:16:59 AgentX: CCL can run CFFI, so it's good. :-) 15:17:31 but CCL makes it hard to support UTF-8B, so it's bad! 15:17:40 geltoob [n=JLP@71.92.98.86] has joined #lisp 15:18:35 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-105-80.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:18:35 toxygen_ [i=toxygen@stip-static-98.213-81-186.telecom.sk] has joined #lisp 15:18:51 -!- toxygen [i=toxygen@stip-static-98.213-81-186.telecom.sk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:20:24 maxote_ [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 15:21:09 Is that a platform specific behavior, Xof? 15:21:19 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:21:23 Thanks for the info, luis. 15:21:27 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:21:56 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:27 -!- FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:24:42 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 15:27:21 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@112.198.164.165] has quit [] 15:28:11 -!- maxote [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:28:43 -!- maxote_ is now known as maxote 15:32:08 jewel [n=jewel@41.242.163.86] has joined #lisp 15:34:41 ccl is the only lisp with serious thread support 15:34:54 -!- pdenno [n=pdenno@bigfuzz.mxnet.mel.nist.gov] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:35:10 crod: define serious 15:35:27 i.e. doesn't crash if you use them a lot 15:35:34 sbcl is getting there 15:36:15 allegro and lispworks should be coming out with proper threads in their new versions 15:36:31 SBCL support is flaky at best on non-Linux systems. No threads on Win32. 15:37:00 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:37:21 even on linux, it's not reliable threads you can safely rapidly create and destroy afaik 15:37:58 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcx168.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:38:28 whereas ccl has been battle hardened 15:38:37 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 15:38:57 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:39:57 sbcl threads on linux are good as far as i can tell 15:40:25 when i last used them seriously they would put me into the ldb or worse 15:40:49 matimago, cool, thanks. 15:42:56 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:38 New in version 1.0.26: bug fix: fix deadlocks related to starting threads 15:43:51 etc. 15:45:00 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32EC37.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:13 -!- bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:46:35 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079239.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:56 bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:47:04 -!- Pip [n=pip@unaffiliated/pip] has quit ["Good night : )"] 15:47:20 *Xach* is using sbcl threads on linux with 1.0.6.37 with good stability 15:47:33 Xof: turns out it might not be too difficult to trick CCL into making noncharacters 15:48:00 depends how serious you are Xach :) 15:48:06 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["Non-character..."] 15:48:22 they are fine for long running threads but not grown up multicore stuff 15:48:53 where you want to dynamically create threads to handle complex computations 15:49:09 *Xach* just uses it for tbnl 15:50:25 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:50:25 *madnificent* uses threads for a shop application... threads are stable 15:50:40 *madnificent* should enable more connections for postmodern though 15:50:51 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:18 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.253.128] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:53:43 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.224.239] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:54:34 (defun foo () (ccl::%code-char (the ccl::%valid-code-char #xFFFF))) (foo) => #\U+FFFF 15:55:23 demmel [n=demmel@e127.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 15:55:58 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 15:57:07 -!- demmel [n=demmel@e127.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:57:12 luis: that doesn't work on latest CCL 15:57:58 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:58:21 screw CCL 15:59:15 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.15] has joined #lisp 15:59:25 htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.227.199] has joined #lisp 15:59:32 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:02:54 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@70.168.132.106] has quit [] 16:03:49 jlf` [n=user@evans-wlan-181-52.AirBears.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #lisp 16:04:04 twobitsprite [n=isaac@li24-165.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:04:20 milanj [n=milan@93.86.231.76] has joined #lisp 16:05:26 hello.. I'm looking in to game development with lisp... I've read about Crash Bandicoot, etc, but they implemented their own Lisp... how do you feel about standard CL compilers for graphics intensive game development? 16:06:00 There are several people developing games in CL. 16:06:18 oh? 16:06:27 twobitsprite: join #lispgames and there are good libraries for OpenGL available 16:06:43 For graphics intensive games your main concern will be to have good ffi and reasonably controllable garbage collection. 16:07:12 ffi... you mean, I will definately need to write portions in C/C++? 16:07:36 Well, you'll probably want to use libraries which have C interfaces. 16:07:41 ahh 16:07:51 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:08:00 demmel [n=demmel@c141.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 16:08:11 If that's a major issue for you, then you might consider ECL, which compiles to C. 16:08:42 I know a lot of Schemes have fairly complete FFIs... would you say such Schemes are mature enough for game development? 16:08:56 well... I don't know if its an issue yet 16:09:11 Probably. Perhaps chicken. I do not personally know. 16:09:26 Define 'mature'. You can write a reasonably good game in BASIC. 16:09:36 many lisps have good C FFI support 16:09:56 AgentX: you know... libraries, compilers which support enough language features to not be a hinderance, etc 16:09:57 that is: many common lisp implementations 16:10:55 There's an SDL interface library on Google Code if I'm not wrong. Game design and logic is perfectly doable in CL. 16:11:22 well... this will be 3D, so I'll be using OpenGL 16:11:23 http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/ is good .. http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-opengl/ uses it .. but pretty much any kind of FFI work is going to be a problem; you don't want to switch back and forth between some-language <--> c too often, so you got to think about how you need to separate things into components that each have their own tight loops and only seldom need to "switch" 16:11:28 http://www.cliki.net/SDL 16:11:56 twobitsprite: http://www.cliki.net/cl-opengl then :) 16:12:09 yep, I've seen those pages 16:12:13 twobitsprite: http://lispgamesdev.blogspot.com/ 16:12:41 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:13:11 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:51 hmm... that blog seems to be about a 16-bit lookalike 2d game :) 16:14:15 skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has joined #lisp 16:14:43 fe[nl]ix: how about (let ((string (make-string 1))) (setf (ccl::%scharcode string 0) #xFFFF) (char string 0)) 16:14:47 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:15:12 anyways, thanks the pointers 16:15:13 twobitsprite: still, it's SDL. 16:15:13 that works 16:15:14 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.192.253] has joined #lisp 16:15:19 fe[nl]ix: yay. 16:15:19 twobitsprite: it's fresh though 16:15:33 true 16:15:36 luis: but I wonder for how long 16:15:39 well... thanks for the pointers 16:15:39 fe[nl]ix: I think I'll use that hack in Babel. I'm sure it'll break often, but what the hell. 16:15:57 ok 16:16:06 twobitsprite: toy around with CL + cl-opengl a bit. Speed may be slow when your code has not been optimized (but it'll be very clean then). You can, however, hack around speed issues 16:16:09 twobitsprite: good luck :D 16:16:25 one last thing, and I'm sure you all will have your own biases, but I would like your thoughts on this... My other choice of language for this project would be Haskell... how would you all weigh the pros/cons either way? 16:17:09 twobitsprite: memory use can be a problem with Haskell, and there are less abstractions possible (CL allows for virtually anything). Yet multithreading is automatically done for you in Haskell (I think) 16:17:10 haskell tends to use a lot of magic in the compiler. 16:17:24 this can make reasoning about performance difficult. 16:18:05 hey luis if you want correct (and fast) utf8 decoding on ccl look at cl-irregsexp 16:18:08 Lazy evaluation is not particularly enticing for game development, strategy wise. 16:18:28 Oh, I don't know -- I think it can be pretty good. 16:18:40 Would make mapping simpler. 16:18:47 Zhivago: yeah, I've heard about the lack of predictability in the performance before 16:18:50 AgentX: and still, you can have it CL too (there was some library for it) 16:18:53 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:58 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:19:34 crod: Babel's UTF-8 decoder should be pretty good. The decoder can be tricked into generating bad UTF-8 which I'll fix soon. Is your decoder faster than babel's? 16:19:49 -!- HG` [n=HG@89.166.247.222] has quit [Client Quit] 16:20:15 so, generally you would say that Lisp compilers tend to produce more efficient code than Haskell compilers? (and I don't mean benchmarks of highly tuned code... I mean normal code for normal situations) 16:20:21 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32EC37.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:42 I think that 'efficient' and 'predictable' are different. 16:20:43 madnificent: Possible, but not desirable. Is it? 16:20:48 true... 16:20:56 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 16:20:58 CL has a fairly simple evaluation model. 16:21:01 luis, it does not any decode unless there are high chars; in my benchmarks it was faster (one year ago) 16:21:11 There are quite good CL compilers, such as sbcl. 16:21:19 AgentX: a discussion that I'm not willing to have right now... I depends on the circumstances, I guess... for some code it could be really sweet, for other code it may be a mess 16:21:22 crod: ok, I'll look into it. 16:21:23 <_3b> lisp compilers are different enough that generalizing over all of them isn't useful (sbcl generates nice code though) 16:21:54 luis, i started with babel but redid it for performance 16:22:25 madnificent: I would be a fool to not agree. Tired as hell, too. 16:22:28 crod: did you get it much faster? That'd be surprising. 16:22:31 twobitsprite: something like this: with many CL compilers, you can work around speed issues -if you encounter them- easier than in Haskell. This is due to optimization options and a clear evaluation model. 16:23:14 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-189-3.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:23:14 luis, i thought it was much faster but maybe i am completely wrong about that -- i'd appreciate any benchmark 16:23:29 twobitsprite, imho the great thing about CL is that if all else fails you can create your own lispy DSL and have it compile to something very low level (or even C, directly) .. since the DSL is (should) based on sexprs you can still use macros on it to get rid of repetition etc. 16:23:32 -!- pluto12345 [n=carcola@orange.informatik.hu-berlin.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:23:32 twobitsprite: but in essence, you could probably (this is a guess) achieve the same performance with the right hacks in Haskell. 16:23:37 crod: yeah, I'll look into it next month. Thanks. 16:24:09 madnificent: sure... you can have strict evaluation "hints" etc... 16:24:09 Let's just say Haskell was not designed with game development in mind. It's approach to computational problems is almost entirely academic. Even OCaml makes more sense. 16:24:46 twobitsprite, well, not only macros .. but "language construction" in lisp is very easy in general .. i don't know enough haskell to tell whether it competes here ... 16:24:53 AgentX: I doubt Lisp was designed with high-end 3d graphics in mind either :P 16:24:54 twobitsprite: I found this the other day, it is about scheme in a new game: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9ad60/another_realworld_use_of_scheme_quantz_ 16:24:58 lnostdal: it doesn't 16:25:10 I think that haskell is a general purpose programming language. 16:25:33 lnostdal: well.. you can write DSLs to a degree in haskell... with infix operators, type classes, etc 16:25:38 lnostdal: at least not to the ease of defining DSLs (it my -somewhat limited- experience) 16:25:40 luis, if it's not significantly faster then i'd be delighted to ditch it from cl-irregsexp and depend on babel 16:25:48 twobitsprite: It wasn't. Nothing beats doing your game logic in it, though. 16:25:57 Is there a standard way to implement multiple *dispatch-table*'s for multiple webservers in hunchentoot? I'm currently reimplementing a request dispatcher, but I'm not sure it's the ideal way to go about... 16:26:26 madnificent, yeah, it is ridiculously simple to create a compiler for something custom in lisp because of the lisp syntax (or lack thereof) 16:26:32 Moe111: yes, it's clearly described in the docs, IIRC. 16:27:05 AgentX: what about rendering, etc? 16:27:15 twobitsprite: remember: asking what is good in a #yourLang will probably result in people saying that #yourLang is the best. Yet with CL I'd say that it's really worth a shot... You can always dig one level deeper when needed (call out to C if *everything else* would fail). 16:27:54 madnificent: I'm very aware of this... I ask similar questions in #haskell to get their opinions, than research on my own 16:27:55 luis: not clearly. no. I have the hunchentoot documentation in front of me right now, and I can't see any preferred way of doing it. Here's what it says: "The default behaviour, unless you implement your own request dispatcher, is that Hunchentoot walks through the list *dispatch-table* which consists of dispatch functions." 16:27:58 twobitsprite: rendering is mostly done by OpenGL, no? You can just call out to it 16:28:06 -!- jd8hh57 [n=mickey@host217-34-51-26.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has left #lisp 16:28:08 twobitsprite: IIUC, if it's 3D performance you're worried about, you should be worried about your OpenGL code pretty much, regardless of language. 16:28:17 luis: maybe I'm missing something? can you point me in the right direction? 16:28:29 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:35 madnificent: does opengl handle everything? prefetching/prerendering of objects, texture mapping, etc, etc? 16:29:01 twobitsprite: I think only the loading and deformation of objects is done in the language itself 16:29:24 twobitsprite: so all else should be in OpenGL, as the graphics card does mostly anything for you 16:29:26 calling out to C (doing FFI vs. OpenGL) is one obvious option; everyone does it because they have to, but _generating C_ via some custom lispy DSL that fits your need is something lisp will be very good at i think 16:29:27 Moe111: I'm misremembering it then, hold on. 16:29:42 ..there is safety in that :) 16:30:15 true 16:30:17 great points 16:31:41 there was a PDF about some of the recent work by the crash bandicot team, i think, .. and they generated some c stuff from lisp, and did ffi for some stuff 16:32:06 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-208-210.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 16:32:13 lnostdal: they have manual garbage collection and inline assembly :) 16:32:25 lnostdal: they wrote a compiler in CL, that compiled GOAL, which was a schemey ASM. 16:33:30 Meta-abstraction. Yikes! 16:33:54 legumbre_ [n=user@190.135.64.20] has joined #lisp 16:35:30 Moe111: here you go: http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/tbnl-devel/2007-April/003384.html 16:36:30 check out the second pdf (the big 40mb one .. heh), twobitsprite http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/91x7g/reddit_lispers_maybe_you_would_like_to_introduce/c0b6ea2 16:36:46 luis: thanks! 16:37:17 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-26-93.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:38:11 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:38:24 Moe111: OTOH the new (unreleased) hunchentoot seems to have a better way of doing this. 16:38:50 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:40 binghe [n=chatzill@125.118.48.214] has joined #lisp 16:39:48 Moe111: or maybe it's already been released, I don't know. I haven't used Hunchentoot in a while. 16:39:50 luis: which version is that? Is the source up for viewing? 16:40:12 -!- binghe changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.0.30, Osicat 0.6.0, CFFI 0.10.5, trivial-features 0.5, ABCL 0.15.0, Hunchentoot & Drakma 1.0.0, usocket 0.4.1, yason-0.1, series 2.2.10, CMUCL 19f. 16:41:05 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:41:43 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079239.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:41:56 mcdonji [n=mcdonji@70.75.0.48] has joined #lisp 16:42:08 Moe111: START-SERVER has a dispatch-table keyword option doesn't it? 16:42:20 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:42:32 luis: I check now. 16:43:53 lnostdal: that's an interesting slide-show! 16:44:25 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:44:33 Moe111: http://bknr.net/trac/browser/trunk/thirdparty/hunchentoot 16:44:42 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:09 Moe111: but there seems to have been release earlier this year with this code, so forget what I said. 16:46:32 HG` [n=HG@xdslhj222.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:46:34 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-133.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:46:53 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 16:47:02 luis: no, there doesn't seem to be a :dispatcher-table for START. (at least, I think you meant START instead of START-SERVER) 16:47:19 luis: there is only :request-dispatcher 16:48:21 Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-18.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:48:28 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 16:48:35 -!- crod [n=cmell@p14220-ipngn1701marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:49:24 froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has joined #lisp 16:49:40 Moe111: I meant start-server. But it seems that's not longer the right way to start hunchentoot. 16:50:01 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:50:02 luis: just add a few (safety 0) declarations everywhere 16:50:11 sanxiyn [n=tinuviel@118.219.169.203] has joined #lisp 16:50:18 luis: I wonder if I could somehow dynamically scope *dispatch-table* at the time the acceptor is created 16:51:04 crud, I still haven't managed to post twice in the same fortnight 16:51:11 stupid flatline sparkline 16:51:27 hdurer: Kudos for your Common Lisp library for FluidDB: http://doc.fluidinfo.com/fluidDB/api/interface.html 16:51:53 Moe111: have you tried with *meta-dispatcher* anyway? 16:53:09 luis: I haven't just yet. I do find it clunky because it's a runtime check and it's losing information: meaning that my servers might be on the same ports but different IPs, and might be on the same IPs but different host names etc. 16:53:24 so I'd like to have a dispatch table associated right on startup and that's it. 16:54:28 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:54:45 luis: what I was doing before I got here was simply setting the acceptor-request-dispatcher of the acceptor object to my own dispatch handler (As indicated in the documentation) 16:55:12 luis: but I was just wondering if there was a more standard less hackish way of doing it 16:55:40 Moe111: yeah, sorry about the confusion then. Hunchentoot has changed quite a bit since I last used it. 16:55:47 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:55:58 Tril [n=tril@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 16:56:18 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.58.5] has joined #lisp 16:56:20 luis: oh well. thanks anyways. Your answer is probably an indication that there isn't a standard way of doing it =) 16:56:40 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-148-0-83.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:59 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-210.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 16:59:26 -!- Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 16:59:50 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:59:53 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:00:33 -!- sanxiyn [n=tinuviel@118.219.169.203] has left #lisp 17:00:38 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:03 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:02:22 -!- thatdavidmiller [n=david@87-194-167-91.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:03:08 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-210.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 17:06:04 bigb [n=bigb@r190-64-49-84.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:06:55 -!- binghe [n=chatzill@125.118.48.214] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [SeaMonkey 2.0b1/20090718072636]"] 17:07:05 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-148-0-83.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:10:42 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:11:05 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:11:07 Moe111 pasted "custom dispatch table" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85744 17:11:19 luis: fyi, here's how I did it. 17:11:45 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:06 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:07 luis: I think that ultimately, the list-request-dispatcher function should be exported and be something like the dispatcher-function that I just wrote where the table parameter defaults to *dispatch-table* 17:13:44 luis: but anyways, I'm way too much of a novice to submit a patch 17:14:16 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-jozbkaltvgyeikvp] has joined #lisp 17:15:09 -!- uttumuttu [n=uttelis@tuomi.oulu.fi] has quit ["leaving"] 17:15:32 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has left #lisp 17:16:48 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:16:50 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 17:17:09 Moe111: seems like the ACCEPTOR class could simply have DISPATCH-TABLE slot, no? 17:18:10 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 17:20:26 hi. how can i define a symbol, like :foo, within a macro ? 17:20:36 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:21:21 bakkdoor: INTERN is one way 17:21:22 bakkdoor: "defining" a symbol is meaningless. You may intern a symbol in some package. 17:21:38 alright. but how do i intern :foo 17:21:44 :FOO is a symbol interned in the package named "KEYWORD". For short, it's a keyword. 17:21:47 i always get | in front of it 17:22:01 bakkdoor: it's helpful to learn the print syntax of symbols 17:22:02 The _name_ of the symbol :FOO is "FOO". 17:22:02 ah wait, it needs to be capitalized,right? 17:22:20 bakkdoor: well I'm assuming. Perhaps you want : 17:22:24 bakkdoor: well I'm assuming. Perhaps you want :|foo|. 17:22:47 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079239.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:54 ok, got it, thanks :) 17:24:20 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:25:09 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:25:52 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:25:53 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-75.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:26:25 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:26:25 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.58.5] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:26:25 -!- Tril [n=tril@bespin.org] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:27:35 -!- Reav___ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:28:26 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.58.5] has joined #lisp 17:29:06 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p4FD3FE71.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:29:14 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:31:09 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32EC37.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:51 ln5 [n=Adium@h199n2c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 17:32:44 -!- bigb [n=bigb@r190-64-49-84.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:33:08 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 17:34:03 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:38:49 luis: sorry for late reply. But yes, I completely agree with you. a slot called dispatch-table that defaults to the global variable. 17:39:34 hi, what's the de facto standard CL function reference web page? 17:39:55 egn: the HyperSpec. 17:39:58 clhs contents 17:39:59 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for contents. 17:40:01 clhs car 17:40:02 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_car_c.htm 17:40:10 pjb: thanks 17:40:11 clhs 1.0 17:40:11 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 1.0. 17:40:14 clhs 1.1 17:40:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_a.htm 17:40:26 Tril [n=tril@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 17:42:32 -!- demmel [n=demmel@c141.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 17:44:07 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:22 -!- jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 17:44:47 ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:28 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 17:45:58 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:48:15 serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-189-31.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:48:23 good evening 17:49:57 -!- prip [n=_prip@host144-9-dynamic.7-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:51:38 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-96-75.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:08 prip [n=_prip@host144-9-dynamic.7-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:54:05 right folks, i'm questioning whether using postmodern to store away objects into sql is really needed given the simplicity of what i'm doing 17:54:16 is there a better/simpler way to do persistent object storage/ 17:54:51 well, on the simplest level something like cl-store, to files, MIGHT be appropriate 17:54:57 what are you doing with the db? 17:55:00 <_3b> READ, WRITE? 17:55:11 *Xach* uses print/read for planet lisp 17:57:29 i'm using a series of objects to represent different record versions, but they are created once and no/minimal updates. 17:57:41 after that i'm reporting on them in lisp, i don't need sql 17:57:50 why not just use clsql to get them and be done? 17:58:18 i'm currently on postmodern 17:58:37 (unless I misunderstood you and you said you're questioning whether to use SQL at all) 17:58:40 *shrug* the minor changes between versions requires me to create big normalized tables. 17:58:49 exactly, why use sql at all 17:58:55 i mean, postmodern makes it really easy... 17:59:02 but not sure i need sql at all ;] 17:59:26 well, normalized tables are complex and huge for a reason. Will you be able to implement this using text files? 17:59:37 i just want my objects across sessions. 17:59:53 i was looking at elephant, but it has a major problem where slots that contain lists aren't stored 18:00:11 And can you explain why you need normalized tables - roughly, so we get an idea of the kinds of things you're trying to do? 18:00:56 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079239.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:01:01 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:01:23 i'm reading in records from different versions of a program. 90% of the records stay the same, there are minor differences, typically incremental 18:01:41 so i'm having to create new columns each time i discover something new 18:01:42 If all your data can fit in virtual memory, then cl-prevalence may be appropriate. 18:01:48 Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 18:02:17 yeah, not a big db 18:02:23 There are many options 18:02:32 i liked h4ns's presentaiton on the bknr store 18:02:38 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:02:56 yes, there are. ALthough if you already have SQL and it's not a resource burden, I think you can check out why you feel so overwhelmed by it 18:03:24 if I add a column to a table, all existing previously declared explicit SQL statements should still work (i.e. any statement that doesn't have a wildcard) 18:03:30 am I missing somehting? 18:03:50 -!- ineiros [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:03:53 -!- qebab [i=finnrobi@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:03:55 qebab [i=finnrobi@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 18:04:21 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:04:21 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:04:21 -!- Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-18.zen.co.uk] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:04:21 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:04:21 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:04:21 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:04:21 -!- mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:04:21 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:04:21 -!- rlonstein [i=lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:04:21 -!- cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:04:21 -!- nanobit [i=amana@gw.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:04:24 -!- pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:04:33 <_Pb> whoa 18:04:33 pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 18:04:46 ineiros_ [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 18:04:46 Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-18.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:04:46 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:46 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 18:04:46 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:04:46 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 18:04:46 mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #lisp 18:04:46 piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:46 rlonstein [i=lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:46 cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 18:04:46 nanobit [i=amana@gw.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:46 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 18:04:47 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:47 thats true, but because currently each object = a table, i can't mix easily 18:04:49 <_Pb> bunch of spammers just got kicked from freenode? 18:05:05 Demosthenes: elephant does store slots that contain lists 18:05:31 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.192.253] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:05:31 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:05:31 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-105-80.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:05:31 -!- l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:05:31 -!- s0ber [i=pie@114-45-227-228.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:05:31 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:05:31 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:05:31 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:05:31 -!- carrl [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:05:31 -!- stepnem 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[n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:05:58 _Pb: netsplit 18:06:04 <_Pb> ah 18:06:20 if you read http://common-lisp.net/project/elephant/ , the limitations second paragraph... 18:06:21 Demosthenes: my final answer would be that you can do anything in the end, but because I personally am very comfortable with SQL I don't think there's anything in there that you couldn't easily do as well. 18:06:35 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.192.253] has joined #lisp 18:06:35 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:06:35 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-105-80.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:06:35 l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 18:06:35 s0ber [i=pie@114-45-227-228.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:35 rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 18:06:35 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 18:06:35 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:06:35 carrl [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has joined #lisp 18:06:35 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:35 triple [i=triple@pi.nxs.se] has joined #lisp 18:06:35 Witch_Doc [n=me@69.196.64.134] has joined #lisp 18:06:35 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:06:35 thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 18:06:35 Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 18:06:35 michaelw_ [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has joined #lisp 18:06:35 Guest71957 [i=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:35 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-64-6.lns10.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:35 kooll [n=samson_t@sd-10510.dedibox.fr] has joined #lisp 18:06:35 ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 18:06:56 rsynnott: if you read http://common-lisp.net/project/elephant/ , the limitations second paragraph... 18:08:11 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:08:29 for example, I personally use clsql:list-attribute-types to sync my lisp image with the database every time on startup 18:09:09 the method is simple: I declare a base class which I implement dynamically from the SQL table, and I declare a class that inherits from that base class which I use to muck around with in lisp 18:09:22 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:09:24 that way, my "real" object is always in sync with the db, and I can do whatever I want on it. 18:09:25 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 18:09:45 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:10:03 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 18:10:31 (I can send you the code if you want. it's literally two functions) 18:10:40 like i said, i'm already in postmodern. 18:10:56 which has decent object support, at least for creating a class and related tables and writing out to the db 18:11:21 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcx168.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:11:26 Demosthenes: it's just that if you have an elephant object, with a list in a slot, and, say, do (push 1 (my-accessor my-object)) it won't modify the object in the database 18:11:28 i haven't tried pulling in yet come to think of it 18:11:49 but if you do (setf (my-accessor my-object) '(1 2 3)) that's fine 18:11:51 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:12:04 -!- Tril [n=tril@bespin.org] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:12:04 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:12:04 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.58.5] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:12:53 Demosthenes: I see. So your problem is that if you were to create a new object with an extra column, a new table would be created via postmodern? 18:13:29 yep 18:13:53 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:14:00 I get it. It's tricky that. I personally deal in the other way: database is king of data. So my data model is defined in the database and my lisp image is a slave of that model. Not the other way around. 18:14:06 and given my record are incrementally new, i'd prefer straight inheritance (ie: obj-orig, obj-1.0, obj-1.1) with additional attributes as needed 18:14:17 -!- geltoob [n=JLP@71.92.98.86] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:14:19 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:47 in the case where the data model is defined in the lisp image, it's true that SQL gets cumbersome. 18:15:20 eh, the input data is cumbersome 18:15:30 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:15:53 and i can see some value in having the table be defined by the latest and largest object 18:15:59 but then i have to export the version somehow 18:16:05 export? 18:16:07 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-210.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 18:16:12 are you distributing? 18:16:22 export is a poor choice of wording 18:16:32 let me give you a for instance. 18:17:08 if i base the table on obj-2.0, and i can convince postmodern to let a obj-1.0 add rows with the new columns NULL, when i bring it back how can i get a obj-1.0 instead of an obj-2.0? 18:17:41 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:17:55 any reason why you need to retain the actual obj-1.0'ness of it? 18:18:23 if it absolutely has to be, why not simply add a column that is the version unique identifier? like an int or something? 18:18:32 really my goal for long term maintenance is to freeze each generation of objects so that new additions don't change any existing functionality. 18:18:44 and it seems to me, what i write out, should come back identical 18:19:00 adding a colum indicating the obj-type = exporting the version information 18:19:02 into the db 18:19:05 which is what i said 18:19:10 I see. 18:19:22 then you could do like so: 18:19:53 when you take out of the db, you "fit" the data into their container objects. When it "overflows" obj-1.0, you upgrade it to obj-2.0 etc. 18:20:08 this assumes that obj-1.0 < obj-2.0 < ... 18:20:35 i guess i should doublecheck postmoderns import/read back functionality 18:20:41 it's chunky though =) I admit it. 18:22:17 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:22:20 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.129.223] has joined #lisp 18:28:33 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 18:28:34 Moe111: the one appeal to staying in sql is that other tools can examine the same data 18:28:49 that is definitely an appeal. 18:29:28 -!- Guest71957 [i=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:29:33 mqt [i=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:55 Demosthenes: like I said: if making it simpler is your concern, I'd write a few functions to do the ferrying of data around and simply use clsql and be done. But like I said, I have a bias towards SQL. 18:29:59 -!- mqt is now known as Guest58828 18:30:24 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-210.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 18:33:22 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 18:34:59 -!- rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:35:42 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:36:43 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:37:39 pluijzer [n=iisjmii@dhcp-077-248-127-112.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 18:37:54 nmc [n=numbers@82-37-109-215.cable.ubr02.sand.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:39:30 is there an easy way of (for use in a macro), to turn a list like '(THIS AND THAT) into '(,THIS ,AND ,THAT) ? 18:40:03 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 18:41:39 pluijzer: I don't think so. There might be a different way to do what you want to do. What are you really trying to do? 18:42:41 y44d8h [n=clynt@talula.plus.com] has joined #lisp 18:42:51 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 18:43:02 Xach: One moment while i formulate it in my head ;) 18:43:29 -!- y44d8h [n=clynt@talula.plus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:45:59 I'm trying to make a macro that accepts arguments, the names of these arguments become variable names in a function using LET, so for so good, in the same function I need to call a function using the value of the variables. 18:47:05 So in comes some argument list '(SOME ARGUMENTS) they will be used as a variable name, then I need to do this (APPLY #'some-function '(,SOME ,ARGUMENTS)) 18:47:43 pluijzer: could you expand to (some-function ,@args) ? 18:47:55 pluijzer: you really mean quote-paren-unquote? 18:48:51 one moment 18:50:45 Xach: that worked thanks. 18:51:19 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:51:37 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:52:10 I've used Lisp for just two months, can you point me to some please that explains the @ sign please? 18:52:17 please = place 18:52:41 pluijzer: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-defining-your-own.html 18:53:01 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:53:11 http://gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-simple-database.html 18:53:24 oh Xach got there first 18:54:07 <_3b> clhs 2.4.6 18:54:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm 18:54:38 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C259.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:27 thank you :) 18:57:10 lisptastic [n=user@adsl-147-26-147.bgk.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:49 Anybody here know if it's possible to implement infix grammars in lisp? 18:58:02 Don't have any reason to, just curious is all. 18:58:05 <_3b> lisp is turing complete, you can implement anything you want 18:58:15 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.227.199] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:58:17 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:58:33 <_3b> common lisp has a programmable reader, so you can embed other syntaxes (like infix) in your code if you like 18:58:44 http://subx.sourceforge.net/ 18:59:02 When I said possible I meant practical, my bad. 18:59:06 Thanks for the link. 18:59:38 Never tried it though. Also, there's Kantrowitz's reader, which predates the web. 19:00:06 I'm a bit of an amateur; just out of curiosity, what do ya'll think the advantages to having 2 namespaces are? 19:00:24 <_3b> being able to use list as a variable name instead if lst? 19:01:22 Does a single namespace make macro generation easier? 19:01:41 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 19:02:20 <_3b> why would it? 19:02:36 <_3b> probably depends on what sort of macros also 19:02:58 Cause you don't have to specify whether you're calling a function or a variable. 19:03:02 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/code/syntax/infix/0.html 19:03:18 So you don't have to perform a test to see if it's a function or var. 19:03:30 *_3b* doesn't recall needing to test that 19:03:47 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslhj222.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:04:04 <_3b> either you are expanding to a function call, or not... it won't work if you pass the wrong thing either way 19:04:46 sorry for barging in, but is this a rehash of the lisp-1 vs. lisp-2 debate? 19:04:57 <_3b> actually, maybe i see what you mean, but i still don't recall having that problem 19:05:11 skeptomai: no. 19:05:23 It's also another thing you have to keep track of when you're coding. 19:05:40 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 19:05:43 I got tripped up by it a little writing emacs. 19:06:00 I was wondering what the advantages of a lisp-2 were. 19:06:16 lisptastic: One advantage is the freedom to name a variable LIST. 19:06:30 Is there anything else? 19:06:41 I mean that's what a lisp-2 is. 19:06:43 It's faster. 19:06:54 *Riastradh* blinks. 19:06:55 Why is it faster? 19:07:03 Lisp in Small Pieces has the details. I've forgotten them. 19:07:06 I really don't know much, I'm just curious. 19:07:12 You are free to name variables LIST in Lisp-1s, too... 19:07:55 Has anybody here tried writing functional programming style in scheme? 19:08:11 er, replace scheme w/ lisp. 19:08:31 If LiSP contains a claim that Lisp-2 semantics is faster in general, then LiSP contains some bullshit, but I suspect that if it had any claims about this, there was probably some qualification other than `in general'. 19:08:35 that's a bad question nevermind. 19:08:40 <_3b> most of us don't worry about which style of programming we use beyond wherther it fits the task at hand 19:08:57 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has left #lisp 19:09:03 skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has joined #lisp 19:09:28 Riastradh: Are you arguing with yourself about what you don't know LiSP says? 19:09:51 I think the reasoning is that in a lisp2 you don't need a typecheck for the argument in the car position 19:10:13 Xach, no, I'm saying that neither semantics is in general `faster' than the other. 19:10:18 Little bit. 19:10:43 Riastradh: Why are you introducing the "in general" concept only to call it bullshit? 19:11:18 Xach, to emphasize that there was probably some qualification implied when you said `It's faster.' and cited LiSP. 19:11:48 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.15] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:15:02 Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:10 -!- p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:15:48 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-26-144.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:15:51 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:32 Yes, it's not something so simple and obvious that I can remember it clearly. Or actually care much about it. I do remember reading a passage or section in LiSP that explained one strategy for fast lisp-1 is to at some stage do a sort of lisp-2 conversion. But I don't remember the details. 19:16:51 Why is a lisp-2 faster? 19:17:12 lisptastic: I don't have the book handy, or I'd look up what I'm not remembering. Sorry. 19:17:33 If I remember in six hours, I'll try to find it. 19:17:53 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:19:56 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:21:49 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 19:22:53 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 19:23:17 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.176] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:25:44 konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.176] has joined #lisp 19:26:12 you mean something besides not needing a typecheck? can't really see any other plausible performance benefits for a lisp2 19:26:59 -!- konr is now known as konr|afk 19:27:07 -!- konr|afk is now known as konr 19:30:34 -!- jlf` [n=user@evans-wlan-181-52.AirBears.Berkeley.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:32:53 rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:01 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:33:55 jsnell: Maybe it is that simple and obvious. I'll check when I can. 19:34:40 that seems reasonable; if you know everything in the function namespace is a function, that might be vaguely helpful 19:35:05 (albeit potentially leading to catastrophe if non-function things make their way into function space :) ) 19:37:37 lisp has more namespaces than 2 actually .. IIRC PAIP mentions 7 19:38:00 for classes and so on? 19:38:00 -!- jewel [n=jewel@41.242.163.86] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 19:38:05 yeah 19:38:11 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:38:13 makes sense :) 19:38:26 (I suppose 'Lisp-about 7' doesn't have the same ring to it ;) ) 19:38:52 -!- pipping [n=user@unaffiliated/pipping] has left #lisp 19:39:05 *shrug* .. yeah, i think it's great :) 19:39:44 lisp-7 sounds so modern and progressive though. 19:40:04 yeah, more dimensions ftw. 19:40:34 god .. 7 days .. etc. 19:43:52 and on the 7th namespace he rested? 19:44:05 -!- kooll [n=samson_t@sd-10510.dedibox.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:44:10 koollman [n=samson_t@sd-10510.dedibox.fr] has joined #lisp 19:44:29 well, the standardisation committee rested, presumably ;) 19:44:47 (creationism would be much messier if a standards committee was involved) 19:45:07 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 19:46:34 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:47:59 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-208-45.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:48:07 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-210.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:48:11 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 19:48:22 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 19:49:02 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-13379.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 19:51:10 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:37 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:55:02 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:55:47 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:56:50 AgentX_ [n=x@118.95.42.125] has joined #lisp 19:56:57 -!- AgentX_ [n=x@118.95.42.125] has quit [Client Quit] 19:58:02 -!- rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:59:03 -!- AgentX [n=x@118.95.41.14] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:00:14 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:29 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 20:02:50 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:07:33 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:07:34 anyone here use lispworks system? 20:08:29 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:12 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:09:15 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32EC37.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:38 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:10:03 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:12:29 i think most people here use sbcl .. some use ccl .. and some (still fewer) clisp or ecl .. there are 2 people here i can think of who i _know_ use lw .. ~300 people; hm, we have many idlers here don't we? :) 20:12:56 lnostdal: 250 bots 20:14:31 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:14:45 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:15:49 I use lispworks (and sbcl), but I drive the commandline lispworks from slime rather than use the lispworks IDE 20:16:30 Xach, hm, i wonder if they are at least written in lisp :) 20:18:08 how does sbcl compare in language features and code efficience against lw or allegro? 20:18:14 -!- xan_ is now known as xan-afk 20:18:35 quite well 20:18:36 rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:42 maybe http://common-lisp.net/~dlw/LispSurvey.html has some answers, twobitsprite 20:19:01 only for the first question 20:23:46 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 20:26:19 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:43 -!- nmc [n=numbers@82-37-109-215.cable.ubr02.sand.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 20:28:47 jonphilpott [n=user@office4.tmcs.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:00 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:32:40 -!- novaburst [i=nova@sourcemage/mage/novaburst] has quit ["leaving"] 20:33:53 is there a way to do this kind of sql update: 'update foo set bar=bar+1' with (update-records ...) in clsql? 20:35:10 -!- lisptastic [n=user@adsl-147-26-147.bgk.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 20:36:41 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 20:37:09 -!- pragma__ is now known as pragma_ 20:38:37 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 20:38:57 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:39:49 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:42:58 blitz_ [n=blitz@2001:6f8:10f6:200:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has joined #lisp 20:43:38 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:39 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 20:44:06 wow.... lispworks is expensive! 20:44:41 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:08 This is because individual persons generally do not purchase it, twobitsprite; rather, companies do. 20:48:34 lispworks is the cheap one 20:51:39 rpg: hey. I think you should have mentioned that ASDF can be hooked into REQUIRE, which is nicer than ASDF:LOAD-SYSTEM. 20:52:08 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 20:52:31 luis: I don't think that can generally be done. I know that at least in ACL, they have already done a bunch of hooking into require, and hooking asdf:load-system might be dangerous. 20:52:41 rpg: also, just let ASDF-Install die already. :) 20:52:55 This is a hazy memory --- I looked into this a while ago, but gc'ed it. 20:53:20 luis: I don't know what to think about ASDF-install. Yes, it's busted in a lot of ways, but there's no obvious replacement. 20:53:50 rpg: clbuild works better in many ways. 20:54:14 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcx168.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:54:49 luis: quite possibly. I confess that I've gone off them both, since I mostly pull from revision control systems now (pushing into our svn repo if the library is going to be used in a project). 20:55:05 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has quit ["Ok, I'm outta here"] 20:55:06 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:55:34 Just recently for a project, we even stuffed the entire 1.0.28 SBCL tarball into the repo, since it was our known-to-work version. 20:56:01 *kpreid* thinks there's a bit of a tool deficiency in the "the" repo concept 20:56:15 twobitsprite: allegro is on an 'if you have to ask you can't afford it' basis, I think :) 20:56:38 I have a question about &rest ... 20:56:41 (defun bar (&rest params) (dostuff)) 20:56:54 (defun foo (&rest params) (bar params)) 20:56:57 not dvcses, but rather that one ought to be able to handle 'store library deps' sort of stuff in a separable from the main source repository way...yet still keep them versioned in sync 20:57:08 I want to call 20:57:09 mcdonji: (defun foo (&rest params) (apply #'bar params)) 20:57:17 kpreid: you're cruel 20:57:32 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 20:57:46 hm? 20:57:49 -!- fawxtin [n=user@150.162.165.254] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:58:30 kpreid: the question was obvious, but I would've let him formulate it first :) (my answer was laying around waiting for a press on the return key) 20:58:34 kpreid, what if the external libraries are managed in a different type of revision control system? 20:58:37 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:58:39 thanks kpreid 20:59:04 Riastradh: nothing today cleanly supports checking out corresponding versions together 20:59:06 mcdonji: you do understand why that works, right? 20:59:07 gonzojive_ [n=red@59.164.0.210] has joined #lisp 20:59:14 kpreid: In general, the notion of "the" repo may be bad. However, for a single software product, "the" repo is a very handy simplification. 21:00:02 I think so. 21:00:15 kpreid: I don't want my product to go tits up because an upstream dependency changes. I want "the" repository to keep those changes out until I'm ready for them. 21:00:56 mcdonji: would (apply #'bar (list 1 2 3)) work? 21:01:06 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:01:09 kpreid: and I don't even want to think about a product that is built out of some Frankensteinian composite of git, darcs, cvs and svn! 21:01:22 mcdonji: in the same way as (foo 1 2 3) would work? 21:01:51 kpreid: Indeed, I have different copies of the same libraries in different repos for different projects. 21:02:06 rpg: like I said, we don't have the tools to do it *right*, I just think they should exist 21:02:24 kpreid: Amen to that. 21:02:38 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@59.164.0.210] has quit [Client Quit] 21:03:20 madnificent: yes I believe so but I have to chew on that thought 21:03:48 mcdonji: then you are correct, very good :) 21:03:56 rpg: by the way, I use an ASDF extension that searches for .asd files in the subdirectories of some directories I specify. I think that works pretty well. 21:04:16 mcdonji: also: there are no real 'wrong' answers when learning... it is perfectly acceptable to make errors when learning ;) 21:04:27 luis: Yes, I do that, too. I wrote a micro-find in CL (to be more portable) called asd-finder. 21:05:00 luis: I also have macros that invoke the asd-finder, aimed at different directory roots, to configure my lisp session for different projects. 21:05:38 rpg: right, let me know when you want to push this onto ASDF and we'll compare our solutions. :) 21:06:07 rpg: what was this video made with? http://tclispers.org/asdf-presentation 21:06:50 michaelw_: I'm sorry, I don't know. Patrick Stein did the work. You can reach him through the tclispers.org web page. 21:07:47 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:11:43 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:12:17 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 21:13:05 steampunkey [n=steampun@78.134.156.194] has joined #lisp 21:13:29 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:14:13 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:14:55 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 21:15:03 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:15:49 Actually, having given that talk I realize a number of interesting imperfections in my understanding of ASDF... 21:16:03 -!- steampunkey [n=steampun@78.134.156.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:19:25 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:19:30 rpg: oh, why do you suggest the creation of foo-system packages? I think the manual is outdated in that regard. 21:19:41 yes, it is 21:20:38 well, they are *mostly* not needed anymore 21:20:56 right. 21:21:04 steampunkey [i=4e869cc2@gateway/web/freenode/x-nxkgdkyczgrvunfr] has joined #lisp 21:22:13 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:22:18 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [] 21:22:45 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-105-80.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:23:37 luis: if you are extending ASDF in any way, you want the new package, right? 21:23:57 hey, back to SQL. how "bad" is it to store hash style data in rows? 21:24:04 luis: What would be your canonical package for an asdf system definition, btw? 21:24:23 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:29 rpg: asdf creates a temporary one when loading the system. 21:24:30 rpg: none? 21:24:52 But for interactive development.... 21:25:43 I just have an emacs template for making the ASDF file header, and always make a new package with the defsystem. Is there some reason not to? 21:25:53 I rarely futz with asdf when I develop interactively :) 21:26:23 rpg: bah, redshank contains a template for asdf :-P, with completion and everything 21:26:42 Hun [n=Hun@p4FD3FE71.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:05 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:27:08 rpg: this is how I learned about this detail: http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/flexichain-devel/2007-January/000014.html 21:27:10 michaelw_: I still find ELI often a happier place than SLIME, at least when using ACL... 21:27:32 Recursive functions can't be faster than using loops for iteration. 21:27:47 and the tow on memory is many times bigger 21:27:49 rpg: I see. hmm, some stuff is slime independent 21:28:01 steampunkey: context? 21:28:14 nvm, gtg sry 21:28:16 -!- steampunkey [i=4e869cc2@gateway/web/freenode/x-nxkgdkyczgrvunfr] has left #lisp 21:28:26 uh... 21:28:29 Here's a question (which I should answer by reading the source) --- does the temporary package override the programmer-specified one? Let me look... 21:28:50 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [] 21:28:52 how would it? 21:28:54 rpg: no, you can still make your own and it will prevail 21:29:16 michaelw_: right. Just checked. package is bound outside, and my in-package will override. 21:29:17 -!- ln5 [n=Adium@h199n2c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:29:18 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6FFF3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:14 We ended up for at least one project needing to import symbols (ASDF extensions) from a library into a number of different .asd definitions. That's a good use-case for providing the package. 21:30:19 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:30:49 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:30:59 -!- nanobit [i=amana@gw.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:31:19 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 21:31:20 well, you can IMPORT 21:31:39 I guess we could have used the temporary package + package qualifiers or IMPORT, but I think debugging would have been a horror. 21:32:13 -!- edwardk_ [i=c72e9a60@gateway/web/freenode/x-tptacppimoxtjmdi] has left #lisp 21:32:43 So if you have a system whose definition is simple, or has stabilized, you should prune the system package to be more efficient. But if you are fussing with a complex system definition, it seems like the dedicated package is helpful. 21:33:03 *rpg* wonders if he could distill this discussion into something that would go in the manual. 21:33:04 more efficient? i seriously doubt 21:33:24 stassats: That Christophe posting that luis pointed to claims yes. 21:33:32 rpg: hmm, I don't understand your initial argument. 21:34:00 luis: I'm not sure I remember the initial argument, to the extent there was one. 21:34:29 luis: I think I was just explaining why I (believed) was putting in those extra packages. 21:34:54 rpg: sorry, that was really vague. "We ended up for at least one project needing to import symbols (ASDF extensions) from a library into a number of different .asd definitions." -- that was what I was referring to. 21:35:31 rpg: well, i still don't think it's noticeable 21:36:10 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-221-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:10 rpg: oh, nevermind. I understand now. 21:36:15 luis: Oh, there was an asdf extension that was useful in a number of different system definitions, so we wanted to import those definitions into a number of ASDF systems. This could have been done with import functions, though. 21:36:19 TDT: herep 21:37:24 stassats: I'm not sure whether it's noticeable or not. If it's not noticeable, then I'm inclined to continue to add my extra packages, for the debuggability they convey. If not, one could prune them later. 21:37:50 rpg: anyway, to sum up my impression. It seems like people who didn't know about ASDF before got a needlessly bad impression about it. 21:38:07 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-207-110.bos.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 21:38:28 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-13379.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:38:50 empirical questions remaining: (1) how expensive are these additional packages; (2) how painful is it to debug, e.g., using the inspector, w/o the additional packages. I don't have any answers, really, to either of these. 21:39:25 (time (make-package :foo :use '(:cl))) 1,216 bytes of memory allocated. 21:39:47 luis: Hm. That's too bad. My feeling about ASDF is that it has a bunch of warts, some of them pretty bad, but that it's clearly the only game in town, and I'd rather work around the problems or fix them, then wait for the new, perfect replacement. 21:40:02 luis: and it's a huge improvement over what went before. 21:40:44 rpg: I understand it wasn't your goal, but it seems like that's what the audience got, judging from the questions, etc. 21:41:15 I think that's partly because of the presence of a vocal proponent for just writing files with long lists of (compile-and-load ...) forms. 21:41:49 ugh 21:41:54 urgh :) 21:42:13 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:42:49 rpg: maybe so. :-) Anyway, just a suggestion. If you have a chance to give this talk again in the future, start with the simple examples (that's what 99% of the people use) and then explore the warts 21:42:52 I've actually worked on projects where people have felt compelled to wrap ASDF in files like that... 21:43:48 luis: Good idea. There's also some stuff I wished I'd had time for --- like Krystof's interesting use of method combination in ASDF. 21:44:36 paging anyone who might know something about fd-streams, or possibly miscompilation of sap-refs 21:44:47 gonzojive_ [n=red@59.164.0.210] has joined #lisp 21:45:01 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:45:11 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:46:02 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:46:53 luis: any way, this group is a very hard-headed one that likes to know where the bodies are buried. If you think this was warty, take a look at video of the Factor talk, when that becomes available. 21:48:19 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:22 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@66.11.161.166] has quit ["brb"] 21:48:37 phadthai [i=mmondor@66.11.161.166] has joined #lisp 21:49:23 rpg: anyway, I liked the talk. 21:50:01 luis: thanks. I wish I had a chance to do it again. There are parts I liked, and I hope were helpful, and parts I wished I could redo... 21:50:24 skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has joined #lisp 21:50:37 For the benefit of our real nay-sayers, I wish I had had the maximally simple :serial ASDF system definition template. 21:50:52 I'll probably put one on the tclispers web site as a supplement. 21:54:57 rpg: btw, you should warn that guy Patrick that he'll burn in hell for writing (defmacro assert_good_x ...) :-) 21:56:41 luis: I'll pass that on ;-) 21:58:02 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 21:58:52 pkhuong: are you here? 21:59:59 luis: you'll be pleased to know that implementing utf-16 has revealed a bug in sbcl's x86 backend 22:00:27 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:04:07 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:04:17 chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-73-92-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:27 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 22:04:27 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-73-92-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:05:06 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p4FD3FE71.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:05:13 OK, my reduced test case is (defun foo (x y) (declare (type sb-sys::system-area-pointer x) (type (integer 0 100) y)) (sb-sys:sap-ref-16 x (+ y 2))) 22:05:18 someone remind me in the morning 22:05:39 make a memo for yourself? 22:05:57 amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 22:06:15 Krystof: interesting. What kind of bug? I didn't have problems with babel's utf-16 encoder/decoder. 22:07:13 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 22:08:21 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:09:14 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:10:34 kwertii [n=kwertii@67.180.202.175] has joined #lisp 22:10:49 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 22:11:46 rpg: FTR, the software is called screen-flow (Pat answered) 22:12:21 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:18:04 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:19:28 GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:04 -!- rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [] 22:20:29 Krystof: taking a quick loock 22:22:26 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:22:28 Krystof: What's am I looking for? 22:23:11 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:25:50 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:26:06 -!- mcdonji [n=mcdonji@70.75.0.48] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:27:17 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1B454.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 22:27:22 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has quit ["Ok, I'm outta here"] 22:29:26 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:29:35 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 22:33:28 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:55 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-116-100.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:36:56 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:39:38 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@59.164.0.210] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:42:15 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [] 22:47:17 -!- GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:49:36 -!- kwertii [n=kwertii@67.180.202.175] has quit ["bye"] 22:49:58 kwertii [n=kwertii@67.180.202.175] has joined #lisp 22:50:03 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 22:54:23 GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:34 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp121-44-203-158.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:55:30 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:14 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:21 lispm [n=joswig@e177148135.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:03:18 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.231.76] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:04:33 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@nmd.sbx05662.cuperca.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:51 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 23:10:43 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:16:11 -!- lukjad007 is now known as lukjadOOL 23:16:25 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-181-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:48 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:29 -!- pluijzer [n=iisjmii@dhcp-077-248-127-112.chello.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:18:50 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:19:10 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 23:19:30 -!- bulibuta [n=bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:23:24 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6FFF3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 23:23:26 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:24:21 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:28:08 -!- lukjadOOL is now known as lukjad007 23:29:27 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:43 muzgo [n=none@200.255.103.130] has joined #lisp 23:32:02 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.70.177] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:34:12 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-75.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:36:48 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-190.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:41:41 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcx168.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:43:22 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:40 Is there a way to list the slots of a class. preferably the accessors of a class? 23:44:36 CLASS-SLOTS will list the slots 23:44:39 mop:class-direct-slots for slots 23:44:46 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 23:44:49 (apropos "CLASS-SLOTS") 23:44:52 thanks. 23:45:15 direct-class-slots lists only the direct slots for that class 23:45:42 class-slots lists also the inherited slots 23:46:02 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:46:31 is there package in which this would be hiding on SBCL? 23:46:38 sb-mop 23:46:42 thanks 23:46:53 just use the APROPOS function, it will find it 23:46:54 lispm mentioned apropos 23:47:38 apropos gives condition on sbcl 23:47:53 really? 23:48:03 "you are doing it wrong" 23:48:11 I probably am =) 23:48:26 well, why probably, you have a condition 23:48:35 it should tell how to solve this problem 23:48:43 it works for me fine 23:48:45 ah. wasn't in CL-USER 23:49:20 (cl:apropos "CLASS-SLOTS") 23:49:22 and weren't using CL package? 23:49:43 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:50:15 ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:38 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 23:50:45 I was, actually. 23:51:07 or. no. NEver mind. I'm tired 23:51:18 I did this: (cl-user:apropos 23:51:21 instead of cl: 23:51:44 that works just fine. 23:52:38 the error says: The symbol "APROPOS" is not external in the COMMON-LISP-USER package 23:52:39 for the future, you can't find anything exported from cl-user, unless it's insane 23:52:50 it means that it is there, but not exported 23:53:01 then under restarts: 0: [CONTINUE] Use symbol anyway. 23:53:19 thanks. I'll remember it 23:53:22 that means you can type 0 to continue and it will use that symbol anyway 23:53:57 but that's a rather peculiar way to use it 23:54:15 easier than typing it again, sometimes