00:00:59 The OS is OpenBSD 4.5, btw. 00:01:18 qwez: it's possible your sbcl is too old. 00:01:33 *available-buffers* has been in there since 2000 00:01:46 run sbcl --version 00:01:48 or so says git-blame 00:03:02 Xach: I'll try compiling the newest from source. My current version is 1.0.22 00:03:26 Hmm, that one's not too old. 00:03:55 even cmucl has *available-buffers* 00:04:04 I'll try compiling 1.0.30 now. I asked the StumpWM people, they had no clue. 00:04:11 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-25-119-55.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:04:16 qwez: what is the exact error you get? 00:05:05 and what's the backtrace? 00:05:33 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 00:06:23 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9atdd/matzlisp/ <-- nice opportunity for some cl advocacy ;p 00:06:29 I've uninstalled SBCL at the moment, so I can't run it. From memory: roughly along the lines of "stopped on simple error, variable SB-IMPL::*AVAILABLE-BUFFERS* not defined". When I tried to continue, it told me "warning: something issues while interrupts are disabled". Again, I can run it right now, but if you don't care to wait just a little while I'll re-run it here. 00:07:02 I don't remember what 'something' was. Please wait a few moments. 00:07:32 -!- wasabi_____ [n=wasabi@nttkyo434120.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:08:03 -!- gonzojive___ [n=red@c-76-102-6-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:09:42 gonzojive_ [n=red@adsl-76-229-88-200.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:12 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 00:12:35 -!- antoni [n=user@46.Red-79-152-211.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:14:24 -!- gonzojive__ [n=red@c-67-180-74-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:15:17 blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 00:15:46 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:19:14 moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 00:23:17 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [No route to host] 00:25:45 dwh [n=dwh@ppp121-44-203-158.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:17 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-103-117.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:31:54 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:32:31 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:44 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@adsl-76-229-88-200.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 00:33:45 coderdad [n=coderdad@pool-68-238-152-246.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:47 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@82.113.121.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:42:18 arthurmaciel [n=user@189.100.110.41] has joined #lisp 00:42:19 rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 00:42:20 hi 00:45:52 hi 00:45:52 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-64-222-164-136.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:46:01 Xach: I'm looking at the error message now. It says "Debugger invoked on UNBOUND-VARIABLE: The variable SB-IMPL::*AVAILABLE-BUFFERS* is unbound" Beneath that, it says "WARNING: starting a select without a timeout while interrupts are disabled". This is a freshly compiled version of SBCL 1.0.30 00:46:18 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:46:31 0 - Continue 1- Abort 2- Skip to toplevel REPL 3- Quit 00:47:12 qwez: the backtrace should provide some insight 00:49:37 luis: I'll paste it, hold on. 00:53:18 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 00:53:49 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:54:07 dmiles [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:24 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:55:53 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-41.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:56:02 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-41.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 00:57:18 -!- Nshag [n=shag@Mix-Orleans-106-3-44.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:59:53 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.35.90] has joined #lisp 01:00:30 s0ber [i=pie@118-160-173-189.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:07 -!- dto [n=user@cpe-24-31-141-95.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:03:37 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:06:30 Sorry for the delay, had a visitor. http://pastebin.org/9301 The backtrace starts on the highlighted line 01:07:22 Note that when I hit 0, it drops me back at the top level REPL. 01:07:56 qwez: tried mounting /proc ? 01:09:25 -!- s0ber_ [i=pie@118-160-160-126.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:09:59 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:21:10 p_l: It's a huge pita on openbsd, and I was told it wouldn't help. however, for the sake of it i'll try. 01:22:17 qwez: well, it does mention it in the paste 01:22:19 you only need /proc for saving or loading executables with embedded cores 01:23:15 *p_l* ponders why /proc on openbsd is such a "huge pita" 01:23:41 it's not in the default kernel on newer architectures like amd64, for one 01:23:46 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:23:49 ... o_O 01:24:01 p_l: Not really a huge one, but an annoyance. I was exaggurated. It can be mounted in one line of bash. 01:24:24 I wonder why, /proc is rather good idea (well, not the way it had overgrown in Linux, but the original one...) 01:24:31 jan247_ [n=jan247@222.127.192.253] has joined #lisp 01:24:44 I seem to remember building stumpwm under sbcl on openbsd a while ago with no problems, I wonder what changed 01:25:31 p_l: afaik procfs has been deprecated on openbsd for ages, I don't think there's any tools in base that use it anymore 01:25:51 joshe: so, basically, they added it, and then removed again? 01:26:07 who is "they?" 01:26:29 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:26:30 joshe: *BSD developers. I'm not sure if /proc was added soon enough before the splits 01:26:37 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@pool-68-238-152-246.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:26:44 I assumed that /proc was implemented back in the 4.*BSD days 01:26:54 joshe: afaik it wasn't there on 4.3 01:27:05 coderdad [n=coderdad@pool-68-238-152-246.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:11 ah, that's way before my time 01:27:23 at least I don't recall having /proc on my Quasijaurus setup 01:27:26 maybe it was added in netbsd before openbsd forked off 01:27:50 Well, fuck me. Let it be known that despite what three other IRC channels told me, going through the procfs rigamole and mounting /proc did, infact, finish the build. I have no idea why. Now if the executable works well is another story. 01:27:54 *qwez* bows his head in shame. 01:28:15 oh, duh 01:28:20 qwez: maybe it's related somehow to getting information for available-buffers 01:28:28 stumpwm uses an executable with an embedded core 01:28:58 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@pool-68-238-152-246.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:29:11 At least I have an alibi: I'm a lisp/unix newb. 01:29:14 I hate myself. 01:29:15 still, I wonder why /proc got removed. 01:29:28 It's definitely more *nix-like than old *nix methods :D 01:29:32 I hope my argv[0] patch will get committed sometime, I might end up updating the openbsd sbcl port anyway 01:29:39 Knowing openbsd: SECURITY SECURITY SECURITY. 01:30:19 sorry for wasting everyone's time. 01:30:53 qwez: geez, /proc can be covered by both traditional security model and any new one 01:31:27 qwez: don't worry... I'm a *nix n00b too, and you wouldn't believe the kinds of stupid mistakes I make all the time. 01:32:02 qwez: I have an update for /usr/ports/lang/sbcl to take it to 1.0.30 lying around somewhere, if you'd like to try it 01:32:13 by the way, qwez, next time you need to paste something fro this channel, you should probably use lisppaste. 01:32:20 for i386 and amd64 01:32:22 lisppaste: url? 01:32:22 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 01:32:40 Yeah, but mine was fucking stupid. I win all these programming competitions, and I epic fail at building a simple program. *sigh* 01:32:41 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 01:32:53 joshe: have you sent it into the openbsd devs? 01:32:57 joshe: I might try it 01:33:22 no, there's a rather largish patch I want to get committed to sbcl first 01:33:40 heh this reminded me... Client (an anal retentive company that needs everything including every tiny script or README file documented in triplicate) received a new release and about 2 hours before it went into production . (its a big application involving Tuxedo, distributed transactions / clustering etc)... like 4 hours before cutover into production we receive a call: "our senior AIX admin gave a no go, your applications creates a bunch of temporary files wh 01:33:40 ich are not documented in your manual" 01:33:40 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.35.90] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:34:02 qwez: ok, I think it's at http://www.elsasser.org/openbsd/sbcl.tgz 01:34:03 "what? which files, what are their name"... "hold on we are going to conference him in" 01:34:07 jollygood_ [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-152-32.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:36 qwez: heh, programming and frobbing *nix are two completely separate things. 01:34:38 "ok when we boot the applicatino there is a whole bunch of new undocumented files in the root folder".. what? where are they "in /proc" 01:34:39 mgm: sometimes the political requirements end in creating weird rules that go overboard 01:34:51 ... okay, that was stupid 01:34:56 mgm: hehe 01:35:13 mgm: still, you can link them to AIX manual, right? :D 01:35:14 tell them that those files are documented in the manual 01:35:19 ... the UNIX manual. 01:35:20 in our defenes we did not told them that their senior AIX administrator is probably not very senior and also not an administrator :-) 01:35:30 hes now a manager :-) 01:35:35 mgm: haha, knew it 01:36:39 Adlai: This is true. If I had to be a sysadmin, I'd probably kill somebody or myself. I love programming, but in a way can't stand dealing with lower-level issues, and don't care about implementation...which is weird since I'm running OpenBSD. 01:36:43 it's like a manager that reads "administration for dummies" course and deletes logs in a company bound by data retention rules... and he didn't yet read about audit logs stored separately 01:36:48 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.182.237] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:37:24 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:26 qwez: actually, I won't mind going back to sysadmining. At least as long as it will be like my previous sysadmining job 01:37:38 You'd be surprised how joyful a life of a cable monkey can be :P 01:38:02 p_l: what kind of sysadmin job would you like? 01:38:16 Adlai: the one without lusers. And with lotsa non-pc hardware 01:38:26 anyone knows how to add a new SLIME RPC call from SWANK to SLIME? 01:38:35 i need to draw an image in the REPL :) 01:38:42 haha 01:38:46 there are patches for it and they work, but they draw it as function's return value 01:38:47 which is bad 01:38:52 nyef had something, didn't he? 01:39:24 how are you drawing SLIME-side? 01:40:11 I know that emacs can display image files... do you somehow tap into that to display raw image data passed from CL? 01:40:17 Although being a programmer isn't all fun, since you run across stuff like this: http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/A-Waste-of-Time.aspx 01:42:30 Adlai, slime-image 01:42:31 ugh 01:42:35 insert-image 01:42:38 it's a standard emacs function 01:42:39 weirdo: unfortunately, I only found that http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/shot1.png 01:43:04 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-152-32.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:43:07 qwez: oh god, that cpp macro must be how Lisp looks to non-lispers! :) 01:44:14 Adlai: I notice with lisp, that if I've been using it for a while, it looks perfectly normal, but when I leave it, it seems utterly opaque. See also: APL 01:44:29 by "leave it", I mean for 6-10 months 01:44:45 "You're doing it wrong." 01:44:50 aka... Don't leave it. 01:45:34 Adlai: Sometimes I get busy with other things. ): 01:45:42 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-100-230.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:45:49 on that note, i'll be back. 01:45:50 -!- qwez [i=d8c4a52f@gateway/web/freenode/x-irekfaxixfylpkfw] has quit [] 01:46:19 Farewell, user of stumpwm. May your /proc stay mounted. 01:50:44 -!- arthurmaciel [n=user@189.100.110.41] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:55:54 p_l, give me some nice function to graph :) 01:55:58 i'll show you my repl stuff 01:56:08 i mean image stuff 01:56:28 weirdo: don't have one now, I doubt onscripter counts as function to graph ;P 02:00:01 -!- wurble [i=murbank@mire.hcoop.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:02:06 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-103-117.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:03:23 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:03:23 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.49.208] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:03:34 Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 02:03:45 -!- blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:05:18 Does anyone know of an operator whereby one symbol may be appended to the other? For example, ( 'hel 'lo) outputting the symbol hello ? 02:06:21 dralston: it doesn't exist in ANSI CL, but you can define it quite easily. 02:06:41 (defun (one two) (intern (concatenate 'string (symbol-name one) (symbol-name two)))) 02:06:52 Adlai: All right, thanks. I hoped I could avoid its definition. 02:06:59 Ralith: Ah, thank you! 02:07:00 of course, it would be lispier to implement it such that it could concat N symbols. 02:07:03 one moment. 02:07:22 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:08:01 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.115.194.242] has joined #lisp 02:08:01 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:18 Adlai pasted "concatenate N symbols" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85466 02:08:56 (defun (&rest symbols) (apply #'concatenate 'string (mapcar #'symbol-name symbols))) 02:09:09 oh wait 02:09:11 forgot the intern 02:09:15 hah 02:09:18 Adlai annotated #85466 "oops" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85466#1 02:09:20 Adlai: perfect parallel impl :D 02:09:27 Ralith: we both messed up though :) 02:09:28 Thank you very much, this will be even more useful. 02:09:30 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:09:35 dralston: my annotation has the correct version. 02:09:52 Adlai: Thanks again! 02:09:54 ^^ 02:10:03 And Ralith, of course. 02:10:07 note though -- this interns into the package that *PACKAGE* is currently bound to 02:10:08 np :) 02:10:13 true. 02:10:14 dralston: np, enjoy. 02:10:15 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:24 important thing to bear in mind because *PACKAGE* can have values you might not expect at runtime 02:10:30 unless you explicitly set it 02:10:44 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslo101.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:11:04 if you put your code in your own package, this will probably do what you expect. 02:11:24 Thankfully, I'm working specifically packages right now, so I shouldn't be caught unaware. 02:12:44 you might want to add a package argument to that function, in that case 02:14:09 Mm, should be alright; I'm using (in-package ..) . 02:14:27 But, if I discover any shenanigans, I'll keep that in mind. 02:15:08 that's one way to control into which package the symbol gets interned -- controlling what *package* is when you call the funciton. 02:15:18 s/it/ti/ 02:16:12 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 02:16:12 Yeah; either that, or have the function do it explicitly. 02:19:33 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:19:51 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:48 http://tehran.lain.pl/stuff/repl-graph.jpg 02:26:33 weirdo: You use literal lambdas! 02:26:45 oh and nice graph :) 02:28:01 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 02:28:31 Adlai, lambda is only a font face 02:28:44 weirdo: what is that graphing package? 02:28:51 hmm, what's the font face? 02:28:59 p_l, adw-charting 02:29:04 i've had to fix it, it was broken 02:29:11 author hasn't replied yet 02:29:26 bytecolor [n=user@32.156.124.36] has joined #lisp 02:30:32 nyef [n=nyef@pool-64-222-164-136.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:44 CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.30.145] has joined #lisp 02:30:54 reimor [n=rm@189.74.168.86] has joined #lisp 02:31:21 where do I learn autolisp ? 02:31:53 reimor: I don't know, but I haven't seen autolisp here :) 02:32:08 thanks 02:32:31 reimor: is there an IRC channel for AutoCAD users? 02:32:38 i dont know 02:32:55 hmm, doesn't look that way 02:33:12 commom lisp and autolisp are almost the same 02:33:17 Maybe comp.cad.autolisp ? 02:33:25 reimor: I don't think so :D 02:33:40 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:33:51 =/ 02:34:51 thanks 02:34:52 bye 02:34:55 -!- reimor [n=rm@189.74.168.86] has left #lisp 02:35:08 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 02:37:45 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:53 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:42:10 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.29.77] has joined #lisp 02:50:08 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:51:15 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 02:54:57 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:51 brnhck [n=hrk@acurwa001061.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:56:45 -!- brnhck [n=hrk@acurwa001061.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has left #lisp 02:58:45 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 03:05:48 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 03:06:02 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:06:53 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 03:08:58 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:03 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:10:12 -!- bytecolor [n=user@32.156.124.36] has left #lisp 03:11:25 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 03:12:29 Hmm, in CL, is it possible to call funcall on a function in a foreign package? 03:12:38 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:12:46 dralston: define foreign package 03:13:01 dralston: yes. 03:13:45 (unless by "foreign" you mean written in another language, in which case ymmv, mainly depending upon which implementation/platform you're using) 03:14:04 (and of course which "foreign" language you're trying to call) 03:14:47 No, not foreign language. Just a separate package. Normally, a foreign function is called via: (: ....).. 03:14:49 well, you can always try to defun a function that calls some obscure asm code that calls any type of code that could be called... 03:15:09 dralston: it's just a way to access a symbol that is bound to a function 03:15:40 as long as you have a, let's call it, "reference", you can funcall it 03:15:50 assuming it's a function, of course 03:15:51 so yeah, you can call functions in other packages. 03:16:11 Alright, here;s the setup. Assuming that I have the package's name stored as a symbol in one variable, and the function's name as a symbol in another variable, how would I call this arbitrary function? 03:16:24 \s\"\' 03:16:25 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:16:35 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:17:01 dralston: it's pretty similar to that function that Ralith and I helped you with earlier. 03:17:49 you want to build a string that names the function using the symbol-names. 03:17:49 Which is what burns me. However, every time I tried to do anything with a colon, escaped or otherwise, it surrounded it with the | .. | vertical bars. 03:18:22 c|mell [n=cmell@KD124213182069.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:18:26 what have you been trying? 03:18:30 dralston: (find-symbol "function-name" (find-package "package-name")) 03:18:46 *Adlai* feels stupid now :) 03:19:36 dralston: mind you, you might want to check if it's a function at all 03:20:35 eh, I just found that I have a manpage for "fort77". 03:20:47 [OT], but I just find that amusing. 03:20:59 Adlai: it's included in the POSIX standard, actually 03:21:02 Thank you both, that will be immensely useful. 03:21:14 p_l: just the man page? hm, I want my money back. 03:21:20 One of these days, I suppose I shall have to peruse the hyperspec, and stop bothering people. :P 03:22:05 dralston: the hyperspec is huge. Your friends are probably #'apropos and slime-hyperspec-lookup 03:22:22 unless you want to read the entire thing... 03:22:29 Adlai: POSIX also includes a way to find out if you have a fortran system installed, as it's a defined optional feature 03:22:42 Mm, since I use slime, I shall probably use the latter. 03:23:25 p_l: Enlighten me! I want my FORTRAN compiler! 03:23:56 eh, looks like I actually do. hah. 03:23:58 hmm... maybe I misread that one, I can't find it now, but I think there was something 03:24:07 /usr/bin/gfortran 03:24:15 GNU FORTRAN compiler \o/ 03:24:53 I have Intel Fortran compiler somewhere, still haven't installed it 03:26:10 chavo_ [n=user@c-71-63-174-78.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:51 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-71-63-174-78.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:26:54 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-41.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 03:36:11 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:06 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 03:53:31 Good morning. 03:54:49 morning 03:56:23 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:48 bytbox [n=sclawren@silverchips.mbhs.edu] has joined #lisp 03:58:11 -!- Sausage [i=sausage@tehsausage.com] has left #lisp 04:00:22 mogunus` [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:00 tatofoo [n=tato@190.87.10.240] has joined #lisp 04:04:14 I'm off; thanks again. 04:04:28 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:05:36 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:08:53 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B3E99.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:34 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 04:16:46 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 04:20:29 Adlai: (intern "foo:bar") just creates a symbol named foo:bar, not a symbol bar in package foo. 04:20:33 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-146.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 04:20:35 thus the || 04:20:37 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 04:20:51 coderdad [n=coderdad@pool-68-238-152-246.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:04 otherwise symbol-name would probably have to return "package:symbol" or something :P 04:21:05 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:21:06 Ralith: I was actually thinking of using read-from-string though :) 04:21:16 hehe 04:21:36 building manually like that would be a horrible hack anyway 04:21:40 p_l's way is best. 04:21:47 -!- bytbox [n=sclawren@silverchips.mbhs.edu] has left #lisp 04:21:51 bytbox [n=sclawren@silverchips.mbhs.edu] has joined #lisp 04:21:54 yeah, which is why "/me feels stupid now :)" 04:25:15 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B3E99.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:28:04 -!- mgm [n=max@p84-72.acedsl.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:33:12 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:39:24 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:40:22 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.140.116] has joined #lisp 04:42:14 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:43:37 -!- jan247_ [n=jan247@222.127.192.253] has quit [] 04:49:52 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:30 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 04:54:40 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.192.253] has joined #lisp 04:58:45 |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E45A7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:18 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.140.116] has left #lisp 05:01:39 good morning 05:03:20 hello kami- 05:04:31 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 05:05:07 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Client Quit] 05:05:32 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 05:11:49 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@pool-68-238-152-246.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:14:39 gonzojive_ [n=red@adsl-76-229-88-200.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:05 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E4677D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 05:17:11 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@c-69-181-210-219.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:29 GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:35 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:19:14 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:16 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@adsl-76-229-88-200.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:21:58 I am using sbcl, and trying to be efficient in what I write. To do this, it would be very helpful to know how to find out how much space is being consumed by certain data structures. I have looked around a bit, but don't see any obvious way to do this (though I imagine it must be a common enough thing). Can anyone point me in the right direction? 05:22:30 (room)? 05:24:45 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:24:57 (room) afaik shows total, not per object 05:25:33 Thank you mogunus, this looks like it might be a possibility. The hyperspec makes it sound like it gives more of an overall picture, rather than allowing one to target some particular data structure---But, it might serve, especially if sbcl has extensions that help. 05:26:05 Is anyone aware of anything more targeted than (room)? 05:27:12 dralston [n=danieljr@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:43 -!- dralston [n=danieljr@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:29:51 the closest thing I had was for analyzing Linux VM data, but I think there were some additional tools in SBCL 05:31:50 doesn't the profiling extension sb-prof give detailed memory information? 05:32:19 I remember having seen output from it which contained mem info, but my memory might be leaky 05:33:03 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-210-121.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 05:33:24 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-146.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:33:39 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 05:34:52 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:59 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.30.145] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:35:37 *p_l* found an unexproted function that returns info about code object sizes, but nothing more 05:36:33 Using (room) to help with a google search I did just run across something that suggests the the sbcl profiler can help with memory allocation information. I am going to be checking this out---Thanks to all. 05:40:26 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:42:28 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 05:53:21 dralston [n=danieljr@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:53:56 -!- dralston [n=danieljr@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:56:52 _jason2901 [n=thot@203-73-249-80.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has joined #lisp 05:57:14 -!- vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:57:34 vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 06:00:54 GreatPatham: David Lichteblau sent me a code that did something like that for SBCL and I modified/impoved/broke it a while ago, I can send it to you. 06:00:58 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 06:03:49 ah, also took things from darcsweb now that I have a look at it 06:03:53 CXML-RPC needs a cliki page 06:03:53 fusss, memo from p_l: I'm not sure if it was you who asked about inter-app authentication API, but here's one: http://oauth.net/ 06:04:32 p_l: thanks for the oauth link :-) 06:05:12 GreatPatham: well, the file in case you want it http://www.gnome.org/~xan/memory.lisp 06:05:27 -!- _jason2901 [n=thot@203-73-249-80.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has quit [Client Quit] 06:05:28 beware it might be broken/stupid in many places for all I know 06:06:28 xan: a lisper deep in the gnome project? say it isn't so :-) 06:07:35 xan: what are you working on? 06:07:52 fusss: I work on webkitgtk+ and epiphany these days 06:08:01 NICE! 06:08:18 I was in the i18n project ages ago 06:09:12 fusss: hopefully some day I'll be able to merge the two things somehow ;) 06:09:21 I know some guys in australia who are doing some heavy gtk apps internally, i did workshop for them on lambda-gtk 06:09:26 url in pvt ;-) 06:10:08 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:15:57 fusss: but anyway there's still lisp (scheme) code in GNOME from the early days. I wonder if it's the only "mainstream" desktop with lisp code in it. 06:16:18 the wm used to be written in a lisp dialect too, but those days are long gone 06:17:22 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:18:16 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 06:21:56 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:22:24 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest51421 06:22:47 -!- Guest51421 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 06:24:30 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [No route to host] 06:26:22 Thank you xan 06:30:21 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-121.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 06:30:26 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 06:30:45 moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 06:33:12 GreatPatham: if I remember the TIME function in SBCL will also give a cons (allocated memory) count but I'm not sure if it's accurate 06:33:36 loxs [n=loxs@82.119.85.174] has joined #lisp 06:34:39 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:40:53 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 06:41:00 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:02 hello 06:42:48 xan: The memory.lisp file is working for me---Thanks again! 06:45:58 GreatPatham: no problem; just keep in mind it's not accurate (I *know* there's missing stuff), and the stuff that it's there could be wrong :) 06:46:06 it was useful for me in any case... 06:47:44 xan: I'll keep that in mind, but mostly I need simple questions answered, and it already seems to be helping out with those (with the answers I kind of expected) 06:48:07 daniel___ [n=daniel@p5082BD69.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:48:26 GreatPatham: great, I'm glad 06:51:16 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1755.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:02:42 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:03:10 -!- GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 07:05:06 -!- daniel [n=daniel@p5082D7B2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:05:56 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@c-69-181-210-219.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:12:40 -!- loxs [n=loxs@82.119.85.174] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:13:15 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:14:45 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-157-245.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:16:04 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-149-148.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:18:20 Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@95.84.9.168] has joined #lisp 07:20:01 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:20:27 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-113.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 07:26:17 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-15-228.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:39:48 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:42:45 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 07:44:14 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-71-141.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:52:11 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 07:55:26 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:04:27 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:04:45 fusss: good that you like it :-) 08:05:17 p_l: leslie polzer even has a cl-oauth package :-) 08:05:51 nice! 08:06:26 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:10:14 *sigh* 08:10:51 beach: ? 08:17:14 morning 08:17:23 p_l: Nothing particular. Just the frequent feeling of simultaneously being overworked and bored. 08:17:27 hello Krystof 08:19:03 *p_l* has to reevaluate his opinion on JavaScript the language (it's use in browsers stays on my negative opinion) 08:19:22 minion: thaw to p_l 08:19:22 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``thaw''. 08:19:27 minion: thwap to p_l 08:19:27 p_l: have a look at thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 08:19:38 *beach* can't type today 08:19:51 ... it's bloody morning after a sleepless night... 08:20:01 logBot9219 [n=logBot@59.96.36.139] has joined #lisp 08:24:28 Has this minion/thwap business been around for a while? I've only seen it happen recently, but then again, I'm pretty new to #lisp (and Lisp) 08:24:47 logBot9219: welcome back. 08:26:42 Adlai: minion knew about apostrophes in 04.01.07 08:28:14 #lisp: teaching basic english since 2004 08:28:14 hm, it doesn't seem to me as though minion himself knows about apostrophes... 08:28:27 chandler seems to have been the first one to ask minion to thwap someone (jsnell) in 05.05.04. 08:28:52 is that DD.MM.YY or YY.MM.DD? 08:29:00 minion: apostrophe 08:29:01 apostrophe: See http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif - THWAP! 08:29:12 Adlai: ^that's what I meant 08:29:32 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [No route to host] 08:29:36 ahh. 08:30:51 "3. Add an apostrophe whenever you want." 08:30:55 heehee. 08:32:01 ... reminds me of old-styled english tendency to put apostrophes anywhere you wanted, as long as it was used for concatenating and shortening the words... 08:32:37 sometimes omitting the apostrophes as well :P 08:32:39 p_l: like 'twas and 'twill fit? 08:32:50 beach: more 08:33:20 While I'm used to we're and similar, I remember seeing once two levels of apostrophes, constantly appearing in dialogue 08:34:11 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:22 IIRC, it was in one of Tolkien books, with certain styling of language, especially in dialogue 08:35:49 *Tolkien's 08:44:00 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:44:06 benny [n=benny@i577A1C4F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:44:27 I find it funny in French that some contractions become too contracted. Thus, qu'est-ce (one syllable, "what is that" is now often extended to "qu'est-ce que c'est" (what is that, that it is) or even "qu'est-ce que c'est ça" (what is that, that it is, that there). 08:44:36 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-84.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:44:51 *"qu'est-ce que c'est que ça" 08:45:09 *p_l* remembers using the double version 08:45:46 -!- Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@95.84.9.168] has left #lisp 08:45:52 (impossible, I recalled another word from my french lessons. What next? 2008 Year of Linux on Desktop?) 08:46:38 Once I heard someone replace "qu'en faire" (two syllables, what to do with it) by "qu'est-ce que je dois faire moi de ça la maintenant" (11 syllables, what must I do me with that there now) 08:48:26 haha 08:54:05 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 08:54:09 good morning 08:54:27 morning 08:54:29 hello serichsen 08:55:17 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 08:57:37 -!- tatofoo [n=tato@190.87.10.240] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 09:16:20 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@KD124213182069.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:16:23 dto [n=user@cpe-24-31-141-95.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:31:46 ZabaQ [n=johnc@host81-156-64-2.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:36:04 does someone here speak Hungarian? 09:36:28 I need to know what "A változtatások elmentése sikerült" means. 09:37:58 kami-: just a sec, let me see. 09:38:12 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A68D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:38:34 kami-: according to Google translate -- "The changes could save". Not sure what it -really- means, though. 09:40:36 Adlai: didn't know that google translate translates Hungarian, too. Last time I checked, it didn't. Thank you. The message appears after pressing the save button in dwim's UI. So, it means 'the changes could be saved' (hopefully). 09:42:11 kami-: I wasn't sure either. However, mine and sykopomp's very very fledgling IRC bot has a translate command that hooks into Google translate, and it accepts a wildcard in place of the source language. You got lucky this time :) 09:42:50 Hmm. But the changes are NOT saved. So I'm only /partially/ lucky, this time :) 09:44:28 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:46:13 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 09:46:28 well, I guess you'll have to read the instructions written in the language you and whoever wrote that library have in Common... 09:48:35 Adlai: that sounds reasonable 09:57:12 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:57:40 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 09:58:20 blandest [n=user@79.112.98.201] has joined #lisp 09:58:24 -!- blandest [n=user@79.112.98.201] has left #lisp 10:00:16 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:00:57 geltoob [n=JLP@71.92.98.86] has joined #lisp 10:01:35 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:02:44 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:45 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:04 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:06:28 c|mell [n=cmell@x250030.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 10:06:50 HG` [n=wells@xdslfb255.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:07:28 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:08:18 good morning 10:12:14 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:15:18 loxs [n=loxs@82.119.85.174] has joined #lisp 10:17:02 hey 10:17:12 tic, sorry, i had to reboot my machine 10:17:35 is it finished? 10:18:12 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 10:20:42 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32C252.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:01 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:21:18 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A68D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:22:59 weirdo, yup! 10:23:02 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:23:02 weirdo, thanks! 10:23:24 good :) 10:23:35 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C70A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:26:00 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:28:23 hmm polish mp3 in aural moon http://live.str3am.com:2010/ 10:29:58 -!- logBot9219 [n=logBot@59.96.36.139] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:31:22 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:32:52 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 10:33:37 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:45:53 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslfb255.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 10:45:59 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250030.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:48:00 demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-217-117.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:16 is it possible for an uninterned symbol to have a home package? 10:50:49 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:50:55 and if so, what is the constructor for them? MAKE-SYMBOL takes no package 10:50:56 -!- demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-217-117.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:52:07 Uninterned symbol is a bit of a misnomer. It's actually a "home-less" symbol 10:52:43 it can, however, still be imported into other packages. 10:53:12 At least that's what my memory tells me, I hope it doesn't betray with the details. 10:53:16 tcr: well, isn't interning separate from defining a home? 10:53:39 ie. it also involves setting things up so that the next time you read the symbol's name, you get the same one back 10:54:23 symbol-package is not a setf accessor, the only way to change it is via intern, and unintern (perhaps more) 10:55:22 mhm, so in other words, no matter the interning underlying details, you can't make a non-homeless uninterned symbol? 10:56:12 A package with a home-package is interned in that package 10:57:30 Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 10:58:23 ok 10:58:32 that is a bit unfortunate 10:59:09 um 10:59:12 ok 10:59:23 *Krystof* sees the poor, homeless symbols trudging through the snow 10:59:47 Krystof: yes? Is anything I said wrong or nonsensical? 11:05:14 lujz` [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-26-210.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:54 blandest [n=user@79.112.98.201] has joined #lisp 11:06:06 well, it suggests that you have imagined some use case for symbols which are simultaneously uninterned and yet accessible to the reader using package::name syntax, right? What's that use case? 11:06:11 [OT]: Does anybody have experience with VPSville? 11:08:21 tcr pasted "pprint-restart-case" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85472 11:08:47 I feel a bit sad that I have to write this beautiful format-string in its long form :'( 11:09:00 s/write/rewrite/ 11:09:18 Pip [n=pip@unaffiliated/pip] has joined #lisp 11:10:17 Krystof: not really, I thought about symbols that weren't interned, yet knew where they belonged, for the non-interning reader. But I guess that can be worked around fairly easily using a hash table 11:12:44 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.192.253] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:14:33 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.192.253] has joined #lisp 11:14:39 Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@95.84.9.168] has joined #lisp 11:15:03 -!- Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@95.84.9.168] has quit [Client Quit] 11:20:50 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:23:57 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B3E99.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:25:52 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-84.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:26:29 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 11:27:26 -!- lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-17-30.dynamic.amis.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:32:17 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:20 mathrick: you really want to define your own structure instead of using symbols. That's what parse-token is for. 11:32:47 readtable-parse-token. 11:38:20 pjb: that was mostly for presenting the READ results to the consumer, but yeah 11:38:45 Then you can define a print-object method on that structure to have it printed like normal symbols. 11:39:40 Or define your own printing functions for the user. 11:41:48 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229110064.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:43:04 -!- seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:43:22 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:44:34 -!- tessier__ [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:44:43 tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 11:51:06 vsync___ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 11:51:13 wasabi_____ [n=wasabi@nttkyo434120.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:51:40 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslfj215.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:52:02 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-142-132.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:52:54 -!- vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:56:02 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-142-132.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 11:58:41 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B3E99.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:08:21 -!- a-s [n=user@89.122.144.197] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:09:49 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:12:39 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 12:13:41 sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 12:19:18 -!- wasabi_____ [n=wasabi@nttkyo434120.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:20:29 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:21:33 jan247_ [n=jan247@222.127.192.253] has joined #lisp 12:23:13 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.192.253] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:30:51 a-s [n=user@89.122.144.197] has joined #lisp 12:35:38 Adlai: what is VPSville? 12:36:10 fusss: a VPS host that seemed very promising until I read some reviews. 12:36:15 www.vpsville.ca 12:36:35 i have excellent experience with tech.coop, vpsfarm, and linode 12:36:56 tech.coop being our boy drewc's VPS service. go for it. 12:37:36 c|mell [n=cmell@x250030.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 12:37:40 vpsfarm is $20/mo, paypal only. linode is $20/mo credit card only. take your pick :-) 12:37:44 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:38:02 I really want to support tech.coop, however I do need to do some convincing of certain "powers" (read: parents) that the funds are worth it, as I'm not really financially independent yet... 12:38:05 linode has an ajax dashboard for managing the system. vpsfarm has unlimited transfers. 12:38:13 Hmm, linode is a bit cheaper if you buy it a year at a time, iirc. 12:38:55 Putting aside the price of buying a share, tech.coop is cheaper than other VPS services, right? 12:39:12 Adlai: lo mismo. they're about the same. 12:39:17 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 12:39:21 "lo mismo"? 12:39:40 practicing my spanish :-P 12:39:59 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.11.51] has joined #lisp 12:40:24 heh, it's a mistake to practice Spanish on me because I don't have any Spanish to practice 12:41:03 well, tech.coop does seem cheaper, looking at the prices here: http://tech.coop/Hosting%20Services 12:41:14 well, i am no chrisitian but i am listening to gospel now :-) never too late to love this stuff http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1FQqSGxBso 12:41:41 np: George Harrison - Bangla Desh 12:42:21 *gigamonkey* also is happy with tech.coop. 12:43:03 gtg, gf home 12:43:24 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 12:44:35 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B3E99.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:09 hm 12:45:58 I'm trying to get SLIME to work with emacs on windows 12:46:08 I've added the required stuff to my .emacs 12:46:28 oh 12:46:30 nevermind 12:47:58 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:49:01 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:49:12 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.11.51] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:50:41 Oh, slim have been updated to which version now ? 12:50:43 *has 12:51:01 it has no version 12:51:48 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.11.51] has joined #lisp 12:52:13 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 12:52:45 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.29.77] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:54:33 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A68D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:54:50 -!- CrEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:59:51 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-8-158.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 13:00:55 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:50 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 13:03:53 I have a strange behaviour of asdf (at least I think so): I use defsystem to load a bunch of libraries and then save-lisp-and-die. When I use that core on one specific machine, upon loading of a package which depends on the pre-loaded packages, I have a lot of 13:04:07 warnings like this: "WARNING: CLOSER-COMMON-LISP also exports the following symbols ..." 13:04:24 and all of the exported symbols of closer are printed. 13:04:41 morganb` [n=user@76.109.10.14] has joined #lisp 13:05:00 It looks like the closer (and all other packages which were saved in the core) are being re-loaded. 13:05:06 Is that normal behaviour? 13:06:18 On another machine, I don't see this behaviour (same sbcl 1.0.29.19, same arch) 13:07:21 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250030.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:08:09 asdf reloads files which were modified 13:08:29 -!- blandest [n=user@79.112.98.201] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:08:36 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:09:06 stassats: I have compared the timestamps of the .fasls to the .lisp files. The .fasls are newer, even those, which are reloaded. 13:09:52 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 13:10:16 logBot5335 [n=logBot@59.92.145.167] has joined #lisp 13:10:42 kami-: part of the closer warning are due to the way it sets up it's package. there are ways which would not result in this warning 13:12:11 michaelw: I just chose closer as an example. The warnings are present for every package which was dumped with the core (into the core?) 13:13:10 kami-: that's strange, aren't they only emitted if the defpackage form's effect is different from how the package looks like already? 13:14:01 *attila_lendvai* curses on git 13:14:59 Handcrafted [n=henrik@0x573bbf5a.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.ronqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 13:15:14 what now? git is heaven. 13:15:14 michaelw: they should be 13:15:22 tic: isn't 13:15:27 how can it be so much more complicated than darcs?! what on earth does it solve that justifies about 10 times more concepts and 20x more commands... 13:15:27 git is endlessly annoying 13:15:51 attila_lendvai, I think it's trivial. however, you must understand the underlyin concepts first. 13:15:55 attila_lendvai: darcs sucks too, although in a different way. Darcs tries to be minimal and fails 13:16:00 I'm trying to do some basic math in Common Lisp, but I can't figure out how to do power (2^2). I've searched both Google and Stackoverflow to no luck 13:16:01 add to staging area, commit, done? 13:16:09 (expt 2 2) 13:16:10 Handcrafted: expt 13:16:18 Thanks a lot :) 13:16:40 not to be confused with EXP 13:16:41 (why would you search stackoverflow for that?) 13:16:46 tic: everyone preaches that, but i don't buy it. i pulled and it's in a merge state that i want to just quit, dropping my pending changes. why on earth do i need to read docs for that? i never read darcs docs and i'm a happy user... 13:16:56 clhs expt 13:16:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_exp_e.htm 13:17:03 michaelw: There are many Lisp programmers on Stackoverflow 13:17:11 "many" 13:17:25 attila_lendvai: git has the problem of being written by Linus. Which mean peculiar usability at best 13:17:26 Handcrafted; "Lisp programmers" 13:17:34 attila_lendvai, git reset --soft, IIRC. 13:17:42 michaelw: 'course :) 13:17:54 Handcrafted: those who are worth learning from are not likely there, I'd say 13:18:03 either way, git reset. 13:18:29 tic: fatal: Cannot do soft reset with paths.; fatal: Cannot do a soft reset in the middle of a merge. .... fck me, i will just get the repo again and move my files over... 13:18:50 attila_lendvai, so a hard reset, then. that'll reset all changes to HEAD. 13:18:51 Handcrafted: generally, the hyperspec (see above like) is the first stop if you are looking for some functionality 13:18:57 s/like/link/ 13:19:07 minion: clqr? 13:19:07 clqr: The Common Lisp Quick Reference is a booklet with short descriptions of the symbols defined in the ANSI standard: http://clqr.berlios.de/ 13:19:20 -!- morganb [n=user@76.109.10.14] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:19:27 attila_lendvai, in fact, the man page for git-reset has an example that looks like what you're trying to do: http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-reset.html 13:20:42 michaelw: the only problem being gaining the CLHS-fu first :) 13:20:59 -!- dto [n=user@cpe-24-31-141-95.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:21:14 mathrick: that's why it makes sense to get acquainted with it as soon as possible :) 13:21:37 yes, I wish PCL told you that in no unambiguous terms 13:21:41 gigamonkey: hint, hint 13:22:25 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:25 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2CED4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:22:48 -!- morganb` [n=user@76.109.10.14] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:22:54 morganb`` [n=user@76.109.10.14] has joined #lisp 13:23:15 tic: but i don't care, which is exactly my point! i never read darcs docs, and in fact i never read any VCS docs in my whole life, and now i'm told to read git man pages, 'couse it's good! no, it's not (or my VCS needs are simply limited, but i doubt it...) 13:23:28 tic: git certainly could be more user-friendly. I get along with it pretty well, but that (plus introducing it) made me the git go-to guy at work, and I can certainly feel how hard it is for people who just what to get things done as efficiently as possible 13:23:32 s/i never read/i've never read/ 13:23:46 attila_lendvai, too bad, then. git reset --hard ORIG_HEAD is what you want, anyway. 13:24:02 tic: thanks for the help, though! ;) 13:24:04 *stassats* read Emacs VC docs 13:24:04 attila_lendvai: use bzr! 13:24:09 or HEAD@{1} 13:24:21 attila_lendvai, thank google! :-) 13:24:51 *attila_lendvai* hides, quickly drawing crosses in air 13:24:52 attila_lendvai: not that I am surprised to hear that from you, but that's a poor excuse. Documentation is there for a reason (note that I agree that git's UI could hide more details from the user) 13:26:10 michaelw, it's kind-of hard to do that without getting less-than-git 13:26:39 tic: why? 13:26:54 what Contrib packages are recommended to load for a beginner ? 13:27:16 michaelw, if you want advanced features, it will be advanced. You could dumb down the commands, but you'd lose expressiveness. 13:27:16 Pip: slime-fancy 13:27:38 tic: huh? what happened to abstraction layers? 13:27:52 michaelw: i'm ok with several VCS'es, including distributed ones. git is different. might be my fault, but i can only draw conclusions with my limited insight. but my conclusion is that git is full of accidental complexity... 13:28:22 michaelw, you can build a shell on top of git that lets you use it as svn. but then you'll have svn, instead of git, e.g. less power. 13:29:05 danlei [n=user@pD9E2CED4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:19 attila_lendvai, git's really just a straight-forward implementation of how you'd do distributed VCSen. Have you read The Git Parable? http://tom.preston-werner.com/2009/05/19/the-git-parable.html 13:29:37 tic: ...which would be enough for the casual user, and I wouldn't have to explain them how to get out of failed merges, etc.. also, *I* don't want to build this shell. 13:29:49 dto [n=user@cpe-24-31-141-95.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:29:57 ok, tic dranke the kool aid, no use to argue. 13:30:05 s/dranke/drank/ 13:30:15 haha. 13:30:32 note that I really disliked git at first. but that was beacuse I didn't understand it. Much like Lisp. ;) 13:31:27 spradnyesh1 [n=pradyus@117.192.27.116] has joined #lisp 13:31:58 *gigamonkey* wonders why he likes FORMAT so much even though he can never remember how anything more complicated that ~:d works. 13:32:18 gigamonkey, it's the best (only) there is? 13:32:19 I also disliked it because of its complexity. then I boit the bullet and read up on it. It lets me do things I couldn't do with other systems. But I still dislike its complexity 13:32:48 X-Scale [i=email@89-180-220-25.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 13:32:51 michaelw, what's the complexity you talk of? (asked in a curious tone) 13:33:07 kunstler [n=kunst@213.37.158.68.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 13:33:54 tic: yeah. Something like that. 13:33:54 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:34:58 tic: oh please, it took you three tries to get the answer to attila's question right on how to get out of a failed merge. 13:35:20 loxs[] [n=loxs@82.119.85.174] has joined #lisp 13:35:26 anyway, we're way OT again, let's quit this 13:35:39 let's write cl-git 13:35:49 I think somebody started already 13:36:12 -!- loxs[] [n=loxs@82.119.85.174] has quit [Client Quit] 13:36:47 gigamonkey: I had hopes for a format decompiler/recompiler coming out of beach's SICL project, but it hasn't materialized yet 13:37:05 Okay, I got another question. Is there a function in lisp that is equivilant to map in Python. Like I give it a list and a function and it returns a list with each element as the result from the function? 13:37:05 Like: map([1, 2, 3], lambda x: x*2) # [2, 4, 6] 13:37:14 there is M-x slime-format-string-expand 13:37:23 clhs mapcar 13:37:23 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm 13:37:44 stassats: hah! tcr's work, I presume? 13:37:59 i guess 13:38:00 hmm, my slime is too old 13:38:14 michaelw: Fantastic! 13:38:40 Handcrafted: you're asking wrong. The right way to ask is: What lisp feature did python inspire itself from for map([1,2,3],lambda x:x*2)? 13:39:11 pjb: Sorry, I shall remember that :) 13:39:57 fgtech [n=federico@host170-203-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:40:12 Handcrafted: my workflow goes like this: i want to do something with a list. a list consists of conses, so I will look in the clhs' conses dictionary to see my options 13:40:16 clhs 14.2 13:40:16 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 14.2. 13:40:28 huh 13:40:43 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_conses.htm 13:41:39 -!- kunstler [n=kunst@213.37.158.68.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:41:42 michaelw: That example was unfortunate though, because many of the functions on lists are in the sequences dictionary. 13:41:44 pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:41:44 Handcrafted: otherwise, the permuted symbol index is also nice to look for things 13:42:02 michaelw: Thanks 13:42:07 kunstler [n=kunst@213.37.158.68.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 13:42:35 beach: yeah, that's the next lesson to learn: a list is also a kind of sequence, so if the conses dict fails, go over to the sequence dictionary 13:42:50 Handcrafted: What made you want to learn Lisp? 13:44:40 beach: Someone showed me F# and I was facinated about the functional paradigm. It was first of all a very different way of programming, but I found that it made me think more about the output because I have to work from the bottom and up. (Hard to explain) 13:45:43 Handcrafted: I see. Though, Lisp is not restricted to functional programming. It is in fact a very sophisticated object-oriented language as well. 13:46:02 Most lisp dialects are procedural. 13:46:36 Handcrafted: When I say "Lisp" I nearly always mean Common Lisp. 13:46:59 Later, someone recommend Haskell as being a much better functional language, I looked into it, but I never really grasped the whole thing. A few months ago I read a discussion about the most powerful programming language, and one guy talked about Lisp as the most powerful thing ever. I searched and found Paul Grahams essay on "Beating the average", I was inspired by this article to look more into Lisp when I got time 13:47:08 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.11.51] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:47:22 Haskell is about lazy evaluation and static typing. 13:47:41 and monads 13:47:42 Handcrafted: A wise decision! Welcome to #lisp as well. 13:48:03 I'd say that lisp is about metacircularity. 13:48:22 I read a few more articles explaining why the s-expression are so powerful, and that hooked me. It kinda made sense, even if I didn't understand Lisp, it kind of made sense that functional programming should be like this. 13:48:37 So now, I'm trying to do my math homework with Lisp :) 13:48:45 Well, there's nothing functional about s-expressions. 13:49:37 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 13:49:44 Handcrafted: Great! Though as I said, S-expressions are just a very handy way of manipulating code. In Common Lisp, we use this to our advantage by creating powerful macros, that transform Common Lisp code into other Common Lisp code without the problems that textual macros have like in C. 13:50:03 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:50:12 Like being able to do iteration and recursion. :) 13:50:13 beach: I've read about that, pretty interesting 13:50:41 FORMAT should really have a control character for FINISH-OUTPUT. 13:51:31 Handcrafted: Interestingly, if you look at a typical macro, you will find that the code that creates the expansion is often written in a functional style, and the part of the macro that contains the result of the expansion is often not. 13:52:09 giga: Doesn't ~/x/ handle that? 13:52:17 I should maybe say that I also know Python, Lua, PHP, XML, Javascript. I'm also able to do things in Ruby. As I said I've also looked into Haskell and F#. I've also been looking into C/C++, but I never saw the point in learning them 13:52:25 beach, interesting observation! 13:52:27 -!- Pip [n=pip@unaffiliated/pip] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 13:52:37 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 13:52:54 tic: Thanks! Yeah, I thought so, and I often point this out to my students. 13:52:58 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 13:53:10 Learning C is useful for discipline. 13:53:18 gigamonkey: ~/!/ :) 13:53:19 beach, I'm guessing you've made this observation from a rather large corpus? 13:53:41 tic: Mostly the code in OnLisp (which might not be *that* representative). 13:53:54 beach, OnMacros, you mean? :) 13:53:59 :) 13:55:04 tic: But the reason is simple of course; a functional style might be wasteful and inefficient, but that is OK in the expansion code, because it is executed at compile time (or rather macro-expansion time), so it is better that it be compact and easy to understand than efficient. The contrary is the case for the result of the expansion. 13:55:31 A deeper point is that lisp isn't really about functional programming. 13:55:42 It just happens to be a sensible idea most of the time. 13:55:47 *beach* has the feeling someone is going to attack him on this last statement. 13:56:18 c|mell [n=cmell@p3138-ipngn1401marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:56:55 beach: that's how I deal with macros. Optimize the expansion, not the expander. Sure. Though sometimes the expansion can become slow too and then I optimize that. 13:56:59 Zhivago: You can go one step further and argue that not many programming languages "are about" anything in particular. It just happens that the users use them in a particular way. 13:57:05 beach, I'd say you simply have more freedom to do things inefficiently at the cost of readability, as you pointed out, however, certain problems lend themselves to a functional style, some do not. You can't say that functional style is always slower. 13:57:30 tic: Right, and I carefully didn't say that either. 13:57:31 beach, but Lisp probably more so than e.g. Haskell. 13:57:49 beach: or simply because a functional style is simpler for tree-rewriting tasks, and is further encouraged by the structure of macros expansion. 13:58:20 tic: except when you want to make Haskell go fast; ask dons. 13:58:31 pkhuong, ! to the rescue :) 13:58:44 pkhuong: Sure. 13:58:54 beach: Funny you say that. I saw a video on Youtube about Programming Paradigms. There was a talk about Python, and I realised that Python is actually very declarative and procedual and that OO and functional programming is only used because it's sometimes useful 13:59:07 tic: unsafeMalloc? 13:59:31 pkhuong, eww! (I thought the key was the strictness) 13:59:32 beach: pkhuong: some tree-rewriting is easier with access to global information 13:59:40 Handcrafted: declarative? 14:00:04 michaelw: yes, but CL's macro system discourages that type of rewriting. 14:00:30 stassats: No sorry, I meant procedual 14:00:43 Scratch declarative 14:00:47 Handcrafted: That might be. I only know very basic Python; enough to teach our first CS course (which is about graphs, but where we use Python to manipulate them). 14:01:03 The modularity of macros comes from the fact that expanders only looks shallowly at their inputs. 14:01:08 Handcrafted: "procedural" sounds more plausible. 14:01:41 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 14:02:29 Handcrafted: Though I think you will find that Common Lisp-style OO is much more expressive, with method combinations, multiple dispatch and such, so it is useful in more situations that traditional class-centric OO. 14:02:46 pkhuong: I meant "locally global" information, i.e., a macro body; not across macros 14:03:00 Zhivago, michaelw: yeah, though I'd prefer something more cryptic^Wconcise. 14:03:50 Handcrafted, seconding beach's opinion on CLOS. It's just so much nicer/powerful than traditional single-dispatch/message-passing (e.g. C++, Python) OO. 14:04:16 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-101-24.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:05:11 michaelw: oh sure, interesting macros tend to be that way ;) 14:05:15 beach and tic: sounds nice 14:05:44 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:06:28 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-100-230.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:06:29 where is that guide to clos at rocket (light?) speed? 14:06:43 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 14:06:53 Ah, "Warp Speed Introduction to CLOS"! http://eval.apply.googlepages.com/guide.html 14:07:13 -!- mouflon [i=skajohan@Psilocybe.Update.UU.SE] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:07:20 then, A Brief Guide to CLOS at http://www.aiai.ed.ac.uk/~jeff/clos-guide.html 14:07:50 tic: Thanks, but I'll think I'll try and grasp the basics of Lisp first :) 14:07:55 I'll bookmark it tho 14:07:59 mouflon [i=skajohan@Psilocybe.Update.UU.SE] has joined #lisp 14:08:06 Handcrafted: excellent choice 14:08:24 attila_lendvai: can I hide a slot in the metagui declaratively or do I have to use collect-standard-object-detail-inspector-slots? 14:08:44 michaelw: Indeed. I just meant that explanation as en encouragement to continue the endeavor. 14:10:01 Hmmm. The sentence: "A generic function is an object that you use just like a regular function" seems to me bound to confuse folks who haven't deeply grokked Lisp's everything-is-an-object nature. 14:10:49 you mean saying that a function is an object? 14:11:15 beach: as in OO, as opposed to a "first-class value". 14:11:16 people might just have problems understanding the sentence if they do not know that everything's an object. 14:11:18 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:11:22 beach: yeah. And worse saying that a generic function is an object in a context that doesn't make it clear a function is also an object. 14:11:35 gigamonkey: Ah, I see. 14:11:46 gigamonkey: Yes, indeed, it could be interpreted that way. 14:11:52 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-101-24.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:11:54 In an introduction to CLOS which is likely being read by someone coming from a more traditional OO background. 14:11:56 Perhaps the author just meant "object" as in "thing". 14:12:29 Yeah. But in the context "object" is highly overloaded and likely full of existing, non-helpful denotations in the reader's mind. 14:12:51 absolutely. 14:12:56 *kpreid* likes to use the term "value" under some circumstances 14:13:03 *gigamonkey* remembers being deeply confused by descriptions of CLOS for many years. 14:13:09 I'd go with "function" in this case. 14:13:20 "A generic function is a kind of function ..." 14:13:33 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-101-24.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:14:03 Actually what I'd really say is: "A generic function defines an abstract operation, specifying its name and a parameter list but no implementation." 14:14:16 kami-` [n=user@p4FD3E5BF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:22 Anyone here have experience with Elephant? 14:14:22 Handcrafted: if you find the Warp Speed guide to Warp Speed, you might check out http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html 14:15:10 -!- jollygood_ [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-152-32.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit ["..."] 14:21:36 *too? 14:22:36 gigamonkey: by the way, if you're open to constructive criticism about the online version of your book... 14:23:09 Adlai: What do you mean? Is there something wrong with it? :) 14:23:17 it could use links that take you to and from footnotes, and prev/up/next links to navigate between chapters. 14:24:07 -!- pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:24:56 If we're on the topic, user comments paragraph-by-paragraph (like Real World Haskell, like http://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/why-functional-programming-why-haskell.html) might help. 14:25:40 hmm, opening it up for user comments would definitely help with ideas for a 2nd ed. 14:25:50 I found it very useful when learning Haskell - it pointed out a lot of common pitfalls and provided alternate ways to look at some things 14:26:32 PCL was much easier for me (mostly because I had a colleague teaching me in person at the same time), but I'm sure it would help some readers 14:26:40 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:28:37 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:33:01 Adlai: Yeah. There is (or used to be) a Greasemonkey script that fixes the footnote thing. 14:33:25 Basically 14:33:29 er 14:33:33 -!- Bacta [n=gfdgdf@118-92-248-45.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 14:33:41 Basically, I've been too lazy to change the way to HTML is generated. 14:34:13 beach: yes, "too". 14:34:41 wouldn't it be quicker, though (unless you want to implement neomage's idea) to serve up static pages for the book? 14:35:07 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2CED4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:35:08 Adlai: the pages are static. 14:35:39 -!- jan247_ [n=jan247@222.127.192.253] has quit [] 14:35:57 If memory serves, a chapter or two are about the HTML generator used to generate it ... 14:36:16 if they are static, isn't it just a matter of patching them to include a few links? 14:36:27 Adlai: they're static, but generated. 14:36:36 (from the book's sources) 14:36:44 pkhuong: ah, I see. 14:36:50 so, PCL v2 could add a chapter how to serve dynamic pages and build a book comment system with hunchentoot ;) 14:38:43 danlei [n=user@pD9E2CED4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:48 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:51 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-181.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:40:02 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host170-203-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:40:18 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 14:40:32 fgtech [n=federico@host170-203-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:40:38 *Handcrafted* is amazed of caar, cddr, cadr etc. 14:40:40 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host170-203-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:40:42 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:40:46 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest70980 14:41:21 fgtech [n=federico@host170-203-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:41:35 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.209.68] has joined #lisp 14:42:10 _mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 14:42:24 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host170-203-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:42:55 saba [n=saba@c-94-255-170-221.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 14:43:03 -!- spradnyesh1 [n=pradyus@117.192.27.116] has left #lisp 14:43:17 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:43:35 kami-`: there's the :primary #t/#f slot option but it only hides it in list view, and there's the authorization system, too 14:43:51 -!- Guest70980 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 14:44:11 fgtech [n=federico@host170-203-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:44:56 hjpark [n=user@116.40.135.2] has joined #lisp 14:45:11 *gigamonkey* thanks pkhuong for explaining the situation so well. 14:45:35 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:46:43 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 14:48:16 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host170-203-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:48:49 fgtech [n=federico@host170-203-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:49:26 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp121-44-203-158.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:50:46 etpace_ [n=etpace@etpace.eu] has joined #lisp 14:51:11 Has anyone here read the reasoned schemer or used minikanren? I'm not sure where to ask 14:51:54 etpace_: #scheme is more likely to be useful. 14:52:13 Ok 14:52:15 attila_lendvai: ah. the authorisation system! Will test that, too. 14:52:17 pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:52:37 -!- dto [n=user@cpe-24-31-141-95.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:53:56 attila_lendvai: is there a filter implementation in the metagui which allows for selecting ranges of values? e.g. I would enter the values 30 and 50 to find all person instances with an age between 30 and 50? 14:55:50 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A68D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:56:49 kami-`: not yet, but it's planned 15:00:07 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 15:01:06 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:02:44 rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 15:04:37 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 15:05:32 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:05:33 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 15:06:34 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host170-203-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:08:23 coderdad [n=coderdad@pool-68-238-152-246.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:47 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-247.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:18:01 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@pool-68-238-152-246.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:19:14 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 15:20:02 fgtech [n=federico@host170-203-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:20:39 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 15:21:15 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E45A7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. 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#lisp 16:55:50 *Adlai* is having too much fun with *read-base* 16:56:44 set it to 8. and pretend you are on a lisp machine 16:56:53 stassats`: or I can have it this way... 16:56:55 nil => 30477 16:57:00 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:57:08 (using an erc-command-EVAL plugin) 17:00:16 6611117533019309029324227868328374036! 17:00:57 stassats`: no thank you, I almost fried my computer once today already. 17:01:28 ! is just an exclamation mark sometimes 17:01:56 (write 6611117533019309029324227868328374036 :base 36) => ALLYOURBASEAREBELONGTOUS 17:02:52 -!- mouflon [i=skajohan@Psilocybe.Update.UU.SE] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:03:10 (format nil "~36R" 6611117533019309029324227868328374036) => Error: (error Synchronous Lisp Evaluation aborted) 17:03:14 eh, oops. 17:03:45 mouflon [i=skajohan@Psilocybe.Update.UU.SE] has joined #lisp 17:04:15 -!- dto [n=user@24.31.141.95] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:05:41 (|FORMAT () "~36R" #10R6611117533019309029324227868328374036) => Error: (error Synchronous Lisp Evaluation aborted) 17:05:47 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 17:05:51 (|FORMAT| () "~36R" #10R6611117533019309029324227868328374036) => "ALLYOURBASEAREBELONGTOUS" 17:05:59 !!! 17:06:51 i suggest not to send it, but just insert into the input 17:08:20 (setf *print-base* 36) => Error: (error Synchronous Lisp Evaluation aborted) 17:08:25 eh, I'm pretty bad at this. 17:08:39 (|SETF| *print-base* 36) => Error: (error Synchronous Lisp Evaluation aborted) 17:08:45 (|SETF| *print-base* #10R36) => 10 17:09:04 #10R6611117533019309029324227868328374036 => ALLYOURBASEAREBELONGTOUS 17:09:25 well, as i said before, . is for base-10 17:09:29 you're hurting my head. 17:09:31 :) 17:09:32 sorry. 17:09:49 I should probably hack this ERC command to just shut up when there's an error. 17:09:52 #10R6611117533019309029324227868328374036 == 6611117533019309029324227868328374036. 17:10:11 i don't know if there's a god but I do know it uses a base 10 counting system and has a strong preference for round numbers. 17:10:29 well, every base is base-10 17:10:36 heh, in that base. 17:10:38 all your base 17:11:15 base-12 is more fun 17:11:55 #10R3936088685163340328577613638660 => ALLYOURBASEAREBASE10 17:13:57 #10r is no fun, just use ., for chrissake 17:15:37 #O156534671057365647027237673672540135276122 => THISISHELLOWORLDINBASE36 17:15:42 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-247.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 17:16:11 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C777.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:15 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:19:46 -!- mouflon [i=skajohan@Psilocybe.Update.UU.SE] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:19:55 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:20:48 mouflon [i=skajohan@Psilocybe.Update.UU.SE] has joined #lisp 17:20:50 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:21:11 -!- mouflon [i=skajohan@Psilocybe.Update.UU.SE] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:22:33 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has left #lisp 17:22:36 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:22:52 For all you Douglas Adams fans... 17:22:56 (* 6 9) => 42 17:23:17 *print-base* => 10 17:23:24 eh 17:23:26 #b101010 -> 42. 17:23:38 it's not actually #10R10... 17:23:41 See the dot? 17:23:47 pjb: yeah 17:24:02 No need to indicate that *print-base* is ten. 17:24:16 Notice that *print-base* always prints as 10 17:24:17 ah, well, I'm using an /eval command with ERC 17:24:31 and I (stupidly) tried to print *print-base*... 17:25:06 well, it's such that 42 = 6*9 17:27:39 mouflon [i=skajohan@Psilocybe.Update.UU.SE] has joined #lisp 17:28:03 13? 17:29:08 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.178.33] has joined #lisp 17:29:25 stassats`: yep. 17:30:21 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 17:32:56 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Client Quit] 17:34:53 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:34:53 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89-180-220-25.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 17:34:55 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslfj215.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:36:24 macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:36:49 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 17:38:04 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host170-203-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:38:05 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:39:15 pjb: not like this: (write *print-base* :base #xa) (-: 17:41:06 (with-standard-io-syntax (print *print-base*)) 17:41:19 gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:14 oh well 17:46:47 Good evening. 17:48:15 hello, beach :) 17:52:11 cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has 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I am novice in lisp so sorry for newbish question. How is it possible to "unpack" a list in lisp? For example I have a list (1 2 3 4) I want to pass it to function as 1 2 3 4 18:37:23 freiksenet: using APPLY 18:37:25 clhs apply 18:37:25 (apply #'+ (list 1 2 3 4)) 18:37:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 18:37:26 clhs apply 18:37:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 18:37:31 we need a FAQ! :} 18:37:43 lnostdal: we've got at least four FAQs! 18:37:57 heh, yah, pjb :) 18:38:03 thanks ) 18:38:11 sorry for newbish question yet again 18:40:27 is there any other way to do it? for ex. in python you can use *list and get it. 18:40:53 freiksenet: apply is the best way. 18:40:57 freiksenet: you could write: (python-like (f (* list))) 18:41:11 freiksenet: of course, you'd like to implement the python-like macro... 18:41:17 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 18:41:24 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@adsl-76-229-88-200.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 18:41:33 okay, thanks 18:42:33 freiksenet: Notice that you should not misuse APPLY as a folding operator. For that, Lisp got reduce (which, later, python copied, and then threw out again) 18:43:51 I understand. I need to pass list as argument to recursive function and function has &rest so I need to unlist it first 18:44:09 that's exactly what APPLY is for 18:44:47 though you might also want to split the recursive part out into an auxillary function and only have your main entry point take &REST 18:45:22 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.140.116] has joined #lisp 18:45:37 thanks, I'll think about it 18:45:49 mathrick: he didn't say it was his recursive function that took &rest. 18:46:39 pjb: yes he did 18:46:44 I did 18:46:48 :) 18:47:32 oh, and before I forget. Is it possible to specialize standart methods like +,*,/,- for custom classes? 18:47:42 Ambiguously, then. In that case, indeed, you would better pass a single list parameter to the recursive function, instead of several parameters. 18:47:45 freiksenet: no 18:47:50 mathrick pasted "Auxiliary recursive function" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85485 18:47:57 freiksenet: they're not methods 18:48:05 freiksenet: those are not generic functions 18:48:34 freiksenet: Take a look. LABELS declares recursive local functions 18:49:41 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:49:41 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:49:58 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C03A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:16 nvteighen [n=nvteighe@96.Red-83-36-217.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:19 freiksenet: it is possible to shadow the symbol, and make it a generic function, which dispatches the original #'cl:+ as a fallthrough, but you can't redifine it in package cl conformingly 18:50:20 hey! 18:50:27 hello nvteighen 18:50:41 ok, this will be a weird question 18:50:57 how are usually destructive procedures named in CL? 18:51:08 I mean, there's the *-p convention for predicates 18:51:09 often prefixed with an n 18:51:11 danlei: still, you can have all your packages use your "Extended" variant of the cl package, right? :D 18:51:27 danlei: No. THe function that are prefixed with a N are the Non consing functions. 18:51:38 okay. I have a custom class that defines mathematical variables in polynomes, such as 2x or 2x^2. I wanted to make function plus that can sum all symbols and numbers in polynome and I have function plus that takes first specializable argument and a list of other arguments. It gets first argument, finds stuff of the same type in rest and folds them. then it moves next argument of different type as a first argument and applies plus func 18:51:40 pjb, sure, but I think It'll get hard if I want predefined stuff use it 18:52:04 hm... I'm thinking about my own procedures... 18:52:17 thats why I have &rest in recursive function. 18:52:20 how do you show (if all) that this procedure of yours is destructive 18:52:24 nvteighen: it's up to you, there's no standard convention. 18:52:34 ah, not like ! in Scheme? 18:52:57 pjb: ah, thanks, you're right about n 18:53:18 I mean, the convention in Scheme is to use ! to show it... for example append vs. append! 18:53:25 nvteighen: for example, there's REMOVE and DELETE. DELETE _may_ modify the list given in argument. 18:53:26 or whatever... 18:53:51 ok, pjb... so, I get along with whatever I want... 18:53:52 I think ! in scheme shows functions that modify state, not destructive functions 18:54:07 atleast SICP had this kind of notation 18:54:08 freiksenet: isn't that the same? 18:54:32 well there is "n" functions in lisp that mess up things to optimize themselves 18:54:38 there are* 18:54:57 freiksenet: their purpose is to avoid consing. 18:55:15 they don't just change state. state changes are quite okay in lisp as it is quite imperative comparing to scheme 18:55:23 freiksenet: in Lisp it doesn't matter if you modify a cons cell. But sometimes, it matters that you not cons anything. 18:55:30 okay, 18:55:43 hmm... ok, thanks 18:55:58 I'll be afk for a moments :) 18:57:12 -!- GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:58:55 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:00:06 one more stupid question. is it possible to define basic behaviour for generic without any specialization? like stuff it always has to do 19:00:24 just define a method without specialized arguments. 19:00:29 freiksenet: the way to do that would be to define an unspecialized method. 19:00:33 oh, so it would work? 19:00:36 cool ,thanks 19:00:48 perhaps you're looking for :around .. or :before and/or :after 19:00:53 you can also define methods in the defgeneric form, although some people consider it bloated to do so. 19:00:55 yeah, I was thinking about around 19:02:38 and i guess common way of checking if initial arguments for class are correct is initialize-instance :before? 19:02:48 nvteighen: the ! convention is not uncommon in Lisp as well 19:03:11 freiksenet: (defmethod m ((object t)) ...) works on any kind of object. 19:03:19 Adamant_ [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:20 freiksenet: all lisp objects are of class T. 19:03:45 and to match that, no objects are of type NIL 19:03:58 cool. 19:04:04 which is really pretty cool, although I've never come up with a possible use for the NIL type 19:04:36 but it pays off to remember that NIL is of type NULL, not NIL 19:04:51 freiksenet: If all you want to do is add some behavior to an existing non-generic function, many lisps also provide an advice facility. non-standard though 19:05:08 e.g. ccl:advise 19:05:13 I think advice really only works well on LW 19:05:18 and maybe CCL as you say 19:05:26 for SBCL it's definitely not as flexible 19:05:40 I use SBCL currently 19:05:53 but that's just because I picked it randomly 19:06:11 that's not a bad choice, it's very well-supported, especially in here 19:06:12 mathrick: the type NIL is fundamental in a type inferencer 19:06:31 fe[nl]ix: ah, I guess I never considered that 19:06:54 although CL doesn't really require type inference as such 19:07:48 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:56 -!- macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:08:29 freiksenet: also, to add to what pjb said, (defmethod m ((object t)) ...) is equivalent to (defmethod m (object) ...) 19:08:36 T is assumed if no type is given 19:09:25 okay. I am checking this out already. 19:12:06 -!- gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 19:12:54 so only around functions can return values directly, not before and after ? 19:13:11 around and normal %) 19:13:38 right 19:14:28 okay, thanks a lot. 19:14:30 bye 19:14:33 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 19:15:19 For a novice, freiksenet seems pretty sophisticated. 19:15:30 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B3E99.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:16:01 indeed 19:16:37 amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 19:18:25 beach: It looks like python can teach something to newbies, then. 19:19:01 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 19:19:08 You can build very sophisticated machinery with Lego or K'NEX... 19:19:20 pjb: Our situation is funny, in that the first semester is common for all students of math/cs/physics/chemistry. 19:19:31 *danlei* was totally hooked on lego, back in the days 19:19:50 pjb: And our students have never had any CS in highschool. 19:20:05 danlei: I still have my old knex sets! 19:20:12 pjb: So our task is to attract the students we want and disuade the others. 19:20:24 There has been an "option" for a few years... 19:20:30 pjb: So I designed this course for that purpose. 19:20:45 :-) 19:20:57 *stassats`* still has Lego somewhere 19:21:24 Lego seems essential to make a good programmer... 19:21:34 pjb: I think things are going to improve soon, "improve" provided that they put correctly-trained teachers on the task. 19:22:02 [talking about French high-school CS-related education] 19:23:15 pjb: Our colleagues in math/physics/chemistry resist, because they know that the moment there will be CS training in high school, there will be teaching programs for those teacher at the university, and they will lose all their students to CS. 19:23:44 elliotstern_ [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:25:07 :-) 19:25:11 Really? 19:25:13 pjb: For instance, one of the main reasons there are still young women studying chemistry and physics at the university is that it's the path to become a high-school teacher. But when CS can offer the same thing, I think a significant number of those women will prefer CS. 19:25:34 :-) 19:25:49 pjb: I am perfectly serious here! 19:26:07 Sure, but I didn't think about it. 19:26:13 amuck [n=amuck@h0.62.19.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:28 *jthing* thinks mathematical verifaction of algorithms is hard 19:27:03 Trying both ACL2 and Isabelle with isar 19:29:42 -!- sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 19:29:48 pjb: It is perfectly clear that high-school kids prefer choosing a career that they know something about, and as it turns out, they are exposed to a particular one for many hours per day, namely "teacher", so they naturally choose that as a career path. 19:29:56 I might extend proof general with a ACL2 interface, though a alpha release is released by David Aspinall. 19:30:24 back :) 19:30:32 A student who made half ass attempt before the semester was over. 19:30:33 pjb: One of our problems is to convince them that life in industry can be at least as exciting as that of a high-school teacher, and much better paid. 19:30:34 beach: actually, I'm surprised the math teachers don't push for cs in high school. That'd split math into two matters, so globally there'd be more hours for math(+cs). 19:31:02 -!- elliotstern_ [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:31:16 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:31:43 pjb: CS people in France move away from math, so I suspect the mathematicians feel threatened. 19:32:03 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-144-173.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:32:12 beach: That attraction to teaching seems much stronger in France than here. 19:32:20 I am trying to create a program proof system that can replace most test frameworks.. 19:32:36 pkhuong: Yeah, I am very surprised about that. 19:32:58 nuff 19:33:00 Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 19:33:00 that's because that's public school. 4 or 5 months holidays. a job for life, etc. 19:33:29 I'm told the conditions are much better than they are here, and that there's still some respect for the profession. 19:33:32 There are more teachers in France than military in the Red Army. 19:33:34 pjb: I suspect there is something more profound to it. 19:33:40 -!- letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:34:02 pkhuong: I think the respect for the profession has more to do with it. 19:34:27 -!- Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has left #lisp 19:35:18 I think if program spesification was explicit enough, the implementation could be verified mathematically. 19:35:53 pkhuong: But your bringing that up makes me think. It is becoming clear that the working conditions of high-school teachers are deteriorating, so that might decrease demand in the future. 19:35:57 prip [n=_prip@host100-132-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:36:14 jthing: Sure enough, without a formal specification, formal verification threads in a void... 19:36:38 indeed 19:36:39 jthing: Yeah, but then you could also derive the implementation from the specification, making the programmer superfluous. 19:36:46 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:53 beach: ? 19:37:09 Already, the assembler has been made superfluous. 19:37:18 Thanks for all of the help and the great links! I'm going to get some sleep now 19:37:21 Most verfification systems today need to be held by the hand and guided 19:37:29 And even the programmer is almost superfluous, they demand analyst-programmers. 19:37:37 jthing: I am not quite sure how to explain that in words more clear. 19:37:46 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:37:48 Handcrafted: good night! 19:38:12 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:21 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-41-51-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:38:35 -!- Handcrafted [n=henrik@0x573bbf5a.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.ronqu1.customer.tele.dk] has left #lisp 19:38:37 beach: I'm building an informal presentation on SBCL and general modern x86 performance, do you have some tidbits from that algorithmic textbook you were talking about a couple months ago? 19:38:39 The idea stems from a paper in 1966 by P.J Landin "The next 700 Languages" 19:39:34 jthing: I am trying to tell you that if specifications were explicit enough that implementations could be verified mathematically, we probably wouldn't need a sepate implementation, because it could be generated automatically from that explicit specification. 19:39:35 beach: I understand what you say. I just don't see that happening any time soon with tecnology as I see it today. 19:39:59 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-41-51-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:09 beach: ultimate declarative programming? 19:40:14 jthing: and I don't see automatic verification happening any time soon either. 19:40:23 stassats`: indeed! 19:40:39 beach: Coq proofs aren't that declarative (: 19:40:43 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-157-245.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:41:00 pkhuong: I do, and I could give it to you, but why do you think it would be useful for SBCL? 19:41:14 We can make it happen if we hold the verifiers hand and give it some hints. 19:41:21 pkhuong: indeed, they are not, and they are a lot of work. 19:41:41 pjb: CS people in France move away from math, so I suspect the mathematicians feel threatened. <-- that is sadly a trend in many places 19:41:53 it was one of the reasons I went to study in Denmark 19:41:55 ACL2 and Isabelle with ISAR can do that. 19:42:18 -!- nvteighen [n=nvteighe@96.Red-83-36-217.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 19:42:23 It's for people who'd like to start working on SBCL. 19:42:52 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-15-228.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:43:51 Most students (programmers?) don't have any mental model of what makes execution slow or fast on their boxes. Depending on what they want to work on, it can be extremely useful. Either way, I think it's a bit naive to talk about compilation in a void, without trying to build a working knowledge of what the silicon does. 19:44:41 pkhuong: where's your "here"? Is that US? 19:45:06 mathrick: Montreal. 19:45:51 pkhuong: In our undergraduate program, that's the purpose of our "computer architecture" course. 19:46:13 pkhuong: ah. I have a couple Canadian friends, but almost no idea about Canada 19:46:14 ASau` [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 19:46:44 Never the less, the paper I mentioned deserves a read. 19:47:02 mathrick: official motto: "america's hat" 19:47:03 Same here (I think... having substituted more maths for the less interesting courses). But it's 15 years out of date. 19:47:50 beach: in my home (PL) university, it was split between CA and "CS Fundamentals". The latter was where we constructed so called "W machine" from logic gates and then wrote assembly for it in microcode. The coolest course I've ever had 19:48:01 both the lectures and the labs later on 19:48:02 Basis for ML, Haskell, Calm (also OCalm) etc. 19:48:19 nuff 19:48:55 only 10 pages 19:49:00 mathrick: warren machine? 19:49:25 -!- geltoob [n=JLP@71.92.98.86] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:49:28 stassats`: you don't want to know. 19:49:34 mathrick: Sounds great! I had something similar when I was an undergrad in Linköping, and I tried to create a modern version of it here in Bordeaux. It is one of my most popular courses, though I don't teach it anymore. 19:49:38 pjb: Ok. 19:49:50 prolog has a efficient inference engine called the warren engine 19:50:33 I'd bet for wirtualnej maszyny 19:50:34 jthing: You speak nonsense as usual. It is called the Warren Abstract Machine (the WAM). 19:51:01 yes, sorry 19:51:06 jthing: And it is not an inference engine, just an efficient way of implementing Prolog. 19:51:14 stassats`: nope, it's either from "Wykadowa" ("lecture machine") or from the name of the prof who introduced it 19:51:24 prolog inference 19:51:24 jthing: Please get your facts right before making utterings. 19:51:40 -!- ASau` [n=user@83.69.240.52] has left #lisp 19:52:05 warren engine =/= Warren Abstract Machine.. got it 19:53:04 beach: I can still recite the mnemonics for the four initial phases of a microcode tact, even though I can't quite remember all of their meanings :) 19:53:59 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:54:31 beach: meant to study it, but as you probaly figured out, I have not gotten around to it yet 19:55:09 mathrick: Mermory is funny isn't it. I can't remember to take out the trash, but I can remember the phone number of my aunt in 1962, even though I haven't used it since. 19:55:42 beach: what scares me is that you were old enough to use phone numbers in 1962 19:55:59 beach: I guess you like your aunt better than the trash... 19:56:05 hah 19:56:09 *stassats`* doesn't remember his own phone number 19:56:22 mathrick: Not so scary, I am used to being around much younger people. 19:56:36 beach: not scary for you perhaps :) 19:57:03 pjb: I also remember the phone number of all of my friends at the time. 19:57:37 beach: which doesn't speak highly of your trash either :-) 19:57:48 guess that makes sense, I stopped remembering phone numbers when I started using phones with built-in phonebooks 19:58:27 *stassats`* rarely calls himself to remember 19:58:48 mathrick: I don't know how old you are, but my niece is 37 and we are great friends, and we share many of the same values. 19:59:31 *jthing* hates being 'middle-aged'. learning is so much harder. It's not the comprehention, it's the remebering. 19:59:34 pjb: indeed! It just says something about how strange memory is! 20:00:06 beach: yes, it's optimized for things we like. 20:00:33 beach: nah, just pulling your leg. It's just a kinda abstract timeframe for me, since I wouldn't have been born for 20 years by that time, and my dad was just getting good at walking 20:00:42 pjb: I would love to think you are right, but my experience says otherwise. 20:00:48 mathrick, you too '82? 20:00:51 83 20:01:19 added together, we're about the same age as beach! :-) 20:01:24 Anyhow I just go Axiom to crank ot MathML output to Firefox. 20:01:40 Well, younglings, be sure we have a hard time fathoming what it would be like to be born in 1982 when we had already been programming for a few years... 20:01:43 stassats`: you need to start looking for a job again. Giving your number out will teach you in no time 20:01:53 tic: Sounds great! We must have some interesting things to share! 20:02:30 pjb: even more interesting is if you're born in '89 but learn from books older than you :D 20:02:48 Right, that's why I like lisp too :-) 20:02:58 Now if I can just get it to take key sequences and translate them to MathML IN firefox.. Then transfer them to Axiom.. 20:03:15 jthing: So how old are you? 20:03:16 *p_l* had a scheme intro book in his house longer than he lived ^^; 20:03:35 beach: 42 next saturday 20:03:49 p_l: right, I always forget you youngsters have come of age already (my brother is from '89 too, and I'm used to thinking of him as much, much younger, which is no longer true) 20:03:52 p_l: I had Fortran and APL books. I guess that dates me a bit (: 20:04:13 jthing: Happy birthday (I might not be here then)! 20:04:23 thanks 20:04:57 pkhuong: does FORTRAN, PL/I, JCL count? :P 20:05:19 jthing: and happy birthday to you :-) 20:05:37 mathrick: I forget it too 20:06:51 lol 20:07:31 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:31 jthing: happy birthday, I'm certain I won't remember by next saturday, given I can't remember my own birthday 20:08:54 thanks, to you too 20:12:09 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 20:12:32 -!- amuck [n=amuck@h0.62.19.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:12:35 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 20:12:57 its a really hard number t play with 20:13:05 oops Synergy 20:15:54 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.140.116] has quit ["Leaving! http://kmels.net"] 20:16:32 p_l: I had Fortran and APL books. I guess that dates me a bit (: 20:16:35 erh, wrong window 20:16:56 hm, if you (defun foo ...) and (defun (setf foo) ...), can you give them separate docstrings? 20:17:07 Adlai: sure. 20:17:19 Adlai: sure, but I don't know how the docstring for the setf function will be exposed. 20:17:22 (if at all) 20:17:26 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:17:50 hm, it's probably simplest to just document the reader for both. 20:19:10 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2CED4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:19:33 pkhuong: I've seen documentation packages extract strings for (SETF FOO) as well 20:20:44 danlei [n=user@pD9E2CED4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:08 -!- loxs [n=loxs@82.119.85.174] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:21:50 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.173.40] has joined #lisp 20:21:56 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-2-24.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:22:33 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-126-175.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:25:44 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-126-175.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 20:26:29 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C03A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:26:49 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:27:59 blandest [n=user@79.112.99.7] has joined #lisp 20:28:02 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C03A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:12 ah (documentation foo 'setf) 20:29:10 or (documentation #'(setf foo) 'function) ? 20:30:42 sbcl shows the docstring with latter, but not with the former 20:32:01 'setf works with define-setf-expander 20:32:16 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-101-24.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:32:50 the name is of the symbol is '(setf ) 20:33:05 that doesn't look like a symbol 20:33:53 It required a extension 20:34:30 dto [n=user@cpe-24-31-141-95.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:34:51 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2CED4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:34:54 the name of a symbol is a string 20:35:28 yes, as is |i am| but it is still a symbol 20:36:05 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 20:36:40 the name of '|i am| is "i am", what are you trying to say? 20:36:47 -!- kami-` [n=user@p4FD3E5BF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:36:51 jthing: it's not a symbol, it's a function designator. 20:37:36 function designators can be symbols or lists. The spec designates (setf ) (and possibly a few others?), and says that implementations can add additional ones for internal stuff. 20:38:36 Adlai: can they? 20:38:51 stassats`: I think so, yes. 20:39:14 Adlai: that's extended function designators 20:40:11 stassats`: could be. I'm no specmonkey :) 20:41:46 only DISASSEMBLE takes extended function designators 20:42:43 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 20:43:18 untrue 20:43:23 FDEFINITION does as well 20:43:48 (fdefinition #'foo) => The value # is not of type (OR SYMBOL CONS). 20:43:52 ununtrue 20:44:30 fdefinition function-name => definition 20:44:30 (setf (fdefinition function-name) new-definition) 20:44:37 that's what I ment 20:45:03 stassats`: #'foo is not a function designator 20:45:08 it's a function 20:45:14 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 20:45:22 well, read glossary on function designators 20:45:28 try (fdefinition '(setf gethash)) 20:46:11 It's a replacement for 'symbol-function' that handles setf defmethods 20:46:31 -!- jao [n=jao@127.Red-213-98-196.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:46:43 fdefinition takes function name; function name = list + symbol; function designator = symbol + function; extended function = function name + function 20:52:55 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.173.40] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:55:07 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 20:58:19 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C03A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 20:59:04 jao [n=jao@147.Red-83-42-209.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:24 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-113.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 21:05:31 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-45.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:09:44 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:47 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-101-24.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:14:30 -!- sugarmagnolia [n=deadhead@unaffiliated/ladyfantasy] has quit ["leaving"] 21:16:44 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:19:40 lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:25:37 *Xach* goes for "obscurest weak inside joke ever" award with http://xach.com/tmp/joelr1.gif 21:26:06 nice :) 21:26:40 haha 21:27:03 Xach: is that a reference to Steve Yegge's quote? 21:27:38 if that is, it's very nerdy :) (i like it) 21:27:53 Adlai: no 21:28:26 oh. So I don't get it... 21:28:27 Adlai: joel reymont used to (and might still) change languages several times per week. each time it was to the greatest and best language available. 21:28:39 when he was using lisp, he would ask questions here as joelr1 21:29:17 *Xach* is working on a wigflip generator, working ok so far, needs polish 21:29:20 heh. heh. 21:33:17 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.192.253] has joined #lisp 21:34:12 *Adlai* heads out to feed. 21:34:27 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 21:34:36 Xach: I like that you used the middle finger extending toad for this gif (: 21:36:41 *Xach* didn't know there was a choice 21:37:05 there are more characters in super mario bros (: 21:38:21 *Xach* was pleased to create a new font format for this project 21:41:08 -!- dto [n=user@cpe-24-31-141-95.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:42:07 -!- HG` [n=wells@85.8.75.225] has quit [Client Quit] 21:44:37 seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:45:12 fiveop_ [n=fiveop@g229168023.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:45:25 Xach: Nice joke. I saw it coming as soon as "Thank you joelr1!" 21:46:17 heh 21:46:43 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:03 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.209.68] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 21:50:09 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["leaving"] 21:50:16 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 21:51:41 danlei [n=user@pD9E2CC6C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:52 -!- morganb`` [n=user@76.109.10.14] has quit ["byebye"] 22:00:53 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229110064.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:03:42 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2CC6C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:06:58 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-101-24.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:07:07 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:09:27 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:14:49 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:42 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 22:20:47 -!- frodef [n=ffj@226.80-202-87.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:21:50 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-41-51-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:26:42 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:28:29 -!- blandest [n=user@79.112.99.7] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:28:30 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:29:08 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:41 Hello, all! 22:31:02 hello 22:31:58 Is there a function which will tell if a function in a package is "external" or not? After 20 minutes of searching, I still can't find anything. 22:32:19 (External meaning that it was exported during package definition.) 22:32:32 there is a function which will tell whether a symbol is external 22:32:36 clhs find-symbol 22:32:36 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_s.htm 22:33:17 Gahhh, and I've been using find-symbol, too! 22:33:28 *feels stupid* Sorry about that. 22:39:08 -!- pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:40:57 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@82.113.106.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:43:29 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit ["bb"] 22:43:33 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:52 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-45.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 22:58:40 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-74.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 23:01:38 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:01:56 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32C252.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:34 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.192.253] has quit [] 23:14:43 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:15:40 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:18:07 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:20:10 tvl [n=tachim@cldmz-nat-12-108-127-191.pittsburgh.intel-research.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:11 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:23:14 -!- ZabaQ [n=johnc@host81-156-64-2.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:26:01 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:27:43 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:47 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-35-218-212.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:31:03 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:42 -!- tvl [n=tachim@cldmz-nat-12-108-127-191.pittsburgh.intel-research.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:42:38 blitz_ [n=blitz@2001:6f8:10f6:200:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has joined #lisp 23:54:40 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:57:03 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:58:03 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:39 GrayGnome [n=MuneNoKa@user-11fa52h.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 23:59:44 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp