00:03:33 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:06:16 Hmm. Should (float rat) perform rounding when converting the rat to a float? 00:06:19 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:06:52 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:07:43 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-78-106.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:09:36 rtoym: how else could it work? 00:11:25 pkhuong: truncate towards zero. Ecl does this. (At least for integers.) 00:12:19 oh.. I'd try and obey the rounding mode. 00:13:06 Ecl uses some mpq (gmp) function to convert integers to floats, and I guess that truncates instead of rounds. Don't know if there's a version that rounds instead of truncates. 00:13:24 Which reminds me, do you have any idea re or plans for something similar in CMUCL? 00:14:19 JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:21 Hmm. Hadn't seen that before. Cmucl did get rid of the float-accuracy thing sometime ago. If I could, I'd say no more x87 builds at all. 00:16:41 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:16:47 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.192.142] has quit [] 00:17:01 What does "reordering computations" mean in this case? 00:17:53 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-194.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 00:18:29 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:19:01 not necessarily depth-first, left-to-right. 00:19:33 So (* a b c) can be done (* a (* b c))? 00:19:37 right. 00:19:56 *rtoym* can't remember if the spec says it has to be (a*b)*c or not. 00:20:13 oh, no, it's not wrt associativity, but evaluation order. 00:20:58 You mean f(x)*f(y) can compute f(y) before computing f(x)? 00:21:05 We'd be able to emit code that's different than (let ((t1 a) (t2 b) (t3 c)) (* ...)) [basically, mark float computations as pure] 00:21:13 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:09 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-76-115-73-70.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:23:22 I guess I'm slow today. I don't understand. 00:24:05 saikat [n=saikat@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:23 The advantage is that float computations are then movable, so, e.g., in (+ (* a b) (* b c) (* c d)), we don't have to compute all the products before reducing into the sum. 00:25:38 that's not strictly correct because the spec says we should evaluate l-t-r, and the multiplications could trigger FP exceptions. 00:25:38 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:26:18 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:05 Ah, ok. 00:27:18 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:27:52 Are you sure you want (/ complex real) to be (* complex (/ real))? There's at least one extra rounding. 00:29:41 Not as precise, that's why it's conditional on FLOAT-CORRECTNESs = 0. But measurably faster. 00:29:50 What reasonable precise but non-IEEE operations are you expecting to do? 00:29:54 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:29:59 especially for single floats. 00:30:45 Ok, I see what you mean for float-correctness = 0. I think the user should do that if so desired. 00:30:47 GCC has a flag to specify how many NR iteration to perform after approximate inverse sqrt or inverse. 00:31:35 So basically don't use the IEEE sqrt, but some kind of fast approx? (Is that really faster than fsqrt?) 00:31:59 right, and it is faster if you're ok with a couple fewer correct digits 00:32:08 There are also opportunities for some block operations, say (map-into x #'log x). 00:35:31 I agree that ideally the user would do these things, but the architecturally preferable way to perform an operation might not be obvious, and we already have some transforms that should be conditionalised that I wouldn't want to just discard away. 00:36:45 I'd like to make things more correct, but still be able to tell the user that they can selectively revert to the old behaviour with an optimisation quality instead of having to rewrite their code. 00:37:34 What will you do with (map-into x #'log x)? 00:38:00 Interesting idea. 00:38:19 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:38:35 I, however, tend to want correctness and if I want to play fast and loose, I want to make it explicit and under my control. 00:38:50 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:27 It would be nice, however, to allow things like (* 1 x) -> x and (* 0 x) -> 0. 00:39:31 minion: memo for Xach: I just found out that LJ has tag feeds. So if you'd like to have Planet Lisp subscribe to http://kpreid.livejournal.com/data/atom?tag=lisp rather than doing the filtering yourself, you can. Also, Planet CLiki's feed is missing. 00:39:31 Remembered. I'll tell Xach when he/she/it next speaks. 00:39:43 for log, sin, cos and tan, we can find nicely optimised vectorised implementations that wouldn't be hard to port. IIUC, they're arguably almost as precise as IEEE (vectorised versions of the CORDIC routines), but aren't what IEEE mandates. 00:40:15 IEEE doesn't say anything about sin, cos, or tan, does it? 00:40:38 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:40:38 kpreid: sweet, thanks. 00:41:04 or feel free to use my everything feed if you like :-) 00:41:05 Xach, memo from kpreid: I just found out that LJ has tag feeds. So if you'd like to have Planet Lisp subscribe to http://kpreid.livejournal.com/data/atom?tag=lisp rather than doing the filtering yourself, you can. Also, Planet CLiki's feed is missing. 00:41:10 I'm not sure, but at least it's not what x87 (or libc)does. 00:41:27 *glibm, actually. 00:42:21 Umm, x87 doesn't do what? I'm getting really confused. 00:42:22 I also want correctness, but the current behaviour isn't as correct as it could be. So I'm hoping the flags can offer a nice granularity of control without having to rewrite everything explicitly. 00:42:43 (BTW, how are you going to fix the (cos 100...0000) issue? Just curious.) 00:42:47 The CORDIC-inspired routines don't return bitwise equal result to x87 and libm. 00:43:12 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 00:44:28 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:01 The flags are interesting to be sure. 00:45:05 pkhuong pasted "Range reduction patch" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85297 00:46:18 -!- Bootvis [i=bob@baltar.lan.endoria.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:46:19 There are two issues here: range reduction is performed on the rounded float (not gonna fix that), and we don't do range reduction if x87 can't (that's what the above fixes) 00:46:27 Ah. I think Douglas had something like that long ago, but removed it because it didn't really help. And it doesn't help if you try (cos 2^120) or something like that. 00:47:37 That's why there's a compiler note for sin/cos/tan if the argument is not known to be less than 2^63 or so. 00:47:37 -!- Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:48:17 well, FSVO doesn't help. It'd be nice if (sin^2 + cos^2)(x) ~= 1 for all finite floats. 00:48:43 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 00:49:20 (instead of = 0 for |x| > 2^63, which kills tan [and why do we do that ourselves instead of asking x87?]) 00:50:55 The problem with 2^120 is that it can't be represented as a single float, and the spec says we should coerce to single floats by default. But (cos 2d120) can be computed and shouldn't compute to 0. 00:50:56 sin^2+cos^2 = 1 for x = 2^120 on cmucl/darwin. 00:51:24 jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 00:51:35 Oh, I did mean 2^120 as a double, not single, since it won't fit as you point out. 00:52:22 are you on x86? You might not use x87 directly on x86-64. 00:52:44 dagnachew_ [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:52:46 -!- dagnachew_ [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:52:50 dagnachew_ [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:53:02 -!- dagnachew_ [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:53:18 It wouldn't matter. Cmucl does full range reduction using some 1500 bits of pi. 00:54:09 Ah. As I mentioned earlier, I won't address that. 00:55:57 We call out to C to do the reduction. I'm too lazy to translate it to lisp. 00:57:08 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:58:19 Bootvis [i=bob@baltar.lan.endoria.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:08 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 01:02:59 pyrolyte [n=pyrolyte@cpe-024-211-210-164.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:03:23 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:18 pkhuong: What did you mean by returning 0 and killing tan? Do you actually compute sin(x)/cos(x) instead of using fpatan instruction? 01:05:32 yup. 01:06:04 jaoswald [n=user@cpe-74-73-18-205.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:06:43 Why do you do that? 01:06:50 I have no idea. 01:07:03 Heh. Ok. 01:07:03 -!- dan__ [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:07:26 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:35 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:10:09 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-29e270abae2b084b] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:10:16 It seems like it wouldn't matter. (tan 2^63) via fptan signals an error for me. 01:11:35 -!- Guest493` [n=user@pD9E2CE9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:11:59 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:12:31 Weird... x87 doesn't push 1.0 when you're outside the range, that might result in a stack underflow at some point? 01:13:45 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:18:10 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 01:18:43 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:19:54 pkhuong: How will you elide traps? Disable some flags? 01:20:05 (back to the paste.) 01:20:50 -!- demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-212-154.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 01:22:09 Whichever happens to be faster, it'll just give us the right to. 01:23:45 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 01:25:40 -!- vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:27:27 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-38-170.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 01:29:09 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:32:57 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:33 rtoym: (* 1.0 x) -> x would be ok once we can disregard traps, I think. 01:37:15 Yes. I think I'd just set-floating-point-modes to what I want. 01:37:17 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:37:54 But the compiler can't know that you will have those disabled at runtime. 01:37:57 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:40:36 vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 01:41:31 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 01:42:05 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:44:28 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:44:29 saikat [n=saikat@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:03 -!- pyrolyte [n=pyrolyte@cpe-024-211-210-164.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:46:43 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-80-181.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:46:51 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:47:03 saikat [n=saikat@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:02 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:58:23 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 02:01:21 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["brb"] 02:05:35 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:06:10 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-80-181.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:33 pi31415 [n=ben@c-98-246-78-78.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:13 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:25 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:13:01 -!- jaoswald [n=user@cpe-74-73-18-205.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.1.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:13:43 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-127-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:47 gko [n=gko@114-137-15-175.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:20 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["I wish quit messages could ping >:)"] 02:20:19 how do I make sbcl start with smaller than default heap size when i M-x slime. where do i pass in the setting for --dynamic-space-size 02:24:06 ok nevermind, i just added it to inferior-lisp-program and it seems to work 02:27:37 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:27:52 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:17 bunz: C-u M-x slime. The enter the command you want, with appropriate options. 02:28:37 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:29:13 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:54 hi trying build weblocks i get a SOCKET-CONNECT is undefined, how can i solve that? 02:31:10 salva_: are you using clbuild? 02:31:27 yes all dependencies seem instaled 02:31:38 weblocks-stable? 02:32:35 yes stable 02:33:21 i compile it with thread suport 02:34:20 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:40:00 -!- pi31415 [n=ben@c-98-246-78-78.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:42:00 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:45:11 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:14 -!- gko [n=gko@114-137-15-175.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:45:23 what can i do for identify the problem, SOCKET-CONNECT is undefined, in the loading weblocks-stable , with sbcl-1-0-30 ? thanks 02:45:43 salva_: try posting on the google groups 02:45:49 leslie is very helpful with this kind of thing 02:46:22 ok thanks 02:47:14 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:53:55 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ac9a3a62eabc2f2a] has joined #lisp 02:54:33 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:00:10 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:03:36 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 03:04:00 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:12 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:04:38 saikat [n=saikat@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:57 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:51 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:17 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:24:23 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:57 Moe111 pasted "package locks" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85300 03:25:08 anyone can tell me what I am blatantly doing wrong? 03:25:43 when I run that code, I get dropped into sldb with a continuable error 03:26:03 (of type PACKAGE-LOCKED-ERROR) 03:26:36 (I am obviously running sbcl) 03:26:52 Moe111: the lock error is during READing (when it tries to intern sb-impl::char->utf8), way before the execution of the w/o-package-locks form. 03:27:35 pkhuong: interesting. So how do I remove the locks for reading? 03:27:43 Why do you want to do this? 03:28:14 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:28:16 I have three patches that need to be applied to (among others) sb-bsd-sockets which allow AllegroServe to properly work 03:28:38 Then you should modify the patches to execute in the SB-IMPL package. 03:28:56 SB!IMPL, in fact, if you want to build correctly. 03:29:09 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 03:29:29 ok. I'm relatively new to this. Can you tell me how I go about doing that? 03:29:40 (in-package "SB-IMPL") 03:29:47 oh. just that way. 03:29:48 ok. 03:31:46 I'm kind of confused as to the use of sb-ext:without-package-locks then. What is it used for? 03:32:01 pkhuong: (btw, thanks, it works now) 03:32:06 To execute forms with package locks disabled, during the *execution* of the forms. 03:32:44 why do you need this function anyway? 03:33:07 the without-package-locks? I don't need it. I just assumed that was the way to get rid of the condition. 03:33:43 (the bsd-socket patch just adds an :auto-close key which isn't there for some reason in the current sbcl 03:33:44 no, the new function. 03:33:45 ) 03:35:20 (sb-bsd-sockets:socket-make-stream is the function. AllegroServe and the ACL seem to use this method with a key :auto-close) 03:36:02 what makes you think the key is needed? 03:36:14 The obvious fix would be not to use that keyword. 03:36:31 not necessarily 03:36:46 Moe111 pasted "sb-socket code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85301 03:37:10 notice how the sb-sys:make-fd-stream *does* have the key 03:37:43 And? 03:37:53 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:37:59 the stock sb-bsd-socket seems to be just giving it a constant variable, whereas the Allegro implementation wants to pass that key to the socket-make-stream 03:38:15 And is that it's the simplest code change for me to do 03:38:41 I neither meddle with AllegroServe code, nor meddle with actual bsd-sockets code. I just patch this in my project and am done. 03:39:20 keep in mind that I didn't write allegroserve 03:41:18 It still seems much more sane to me to fix a program to use the library correctly than to modify the library to make it meet the incorrect expectations of the program. 03:44:08 I hear what you're saying, but there's two things that make me think that this patch is better: 03:44:28 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:44:40 a) the actual function that sb-bsd-sockets:socket-make-stream delegates work to *does* use the auto-close value 03:44:52 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Client Quit] 03:45:14 (and sb-bsd-sockets:socket-make-stream as is currently implemented on sbcl seems to pass a constant instead of simply making it a key with a default value of t) 03:46:04 b) allegro serve is multi platform. I don't feel that I have enough "resources" to test it out and release a patch that will work with everyone else's systems 03:46:29 just point a) makes me think that sb-bsd-sockets:socket-make-stream should be the method being patched, not aserve 03:46:40 The only platform that you have to worry about is SBCL here. 03:46:50 ok, and what do you say to a)? 03:47:12 The problem with auto close is that someone else might still be hanging on to the socket. 03:47:20 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-96-75.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:47:27 You'll then have a socket that points to a closed or reopened FD. 03:47:30 (and, not really: I have to worry about the various versions of sbcl, for which this allegro compat layer was made) 03:49:08 That's why the finalization on the socket is cancelled: someone might be only hanging on to the stream. 03:49:55 dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has joined #lisp 03:49:59 Although, the socket does keep a strong reference to the stream. 03:50:28 I'm still trying to grok what you're saying here... 03:50:53 Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@pppoe-88-147-233-41.san.ru] has joined #lisp 03:51:14 you're saying that the socket will stay around, but the underlying stream will have closed? That I get. How can it be reopened? 03:51:30 it'll just give an IO error the next time it tries to be accessed, no? 03:51:43 No, FDs are just ints. 03:51:47 That is my worry with automagic closing. 03:52:07 Now, the socket object keeps a strong reference to the socket, so that's safe. 03:52:15 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:18 If you were to force everything to access that fd via an object ... 03:53:51 I think he's saying that if some other object, somewhere else is created. 03:54:01 and happens to have the same int value as this object which supposedly was closed 03:54:05 there will now be cross talk. 03:55:47 pkhuong: (btw, here's the discussion of this topic: http://www.cliki.net/Portable%20Allegroserve%20Enhanced%20Version%20for%20SBCL) 03:57:37 hi pkhuong 03:57:58 hi slava. 04:03:23 Moe111: There's a risk of double close with your patch (with socket-close). I'd have to think about this for a while to find something that doesn't encourage unsafe practices too much. 04:03:55 pkhuong: yes. I'm still thinking about it too 04:04:34 Keeping things explicit has the advantage that it fails hard and explicitly on resource leaks. 04:05:41 I Wonder why the change occurred at after 1.0.23 04:09:15 (I should get 1.0.30 and see what that does) 04:10:38 It won't change anything. The difference is that one of the patches in 1.0.23 introduced explicit arguments instead of passing a &rest list verbatim to make-fd-stream. 04:10:41 mmm, I really like the new *SLIME Compilation* buffer l&f 04:10:59 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 04:11:15 jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 04:13:32 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:14:00 I see 04:15:01 -!- antgreen [n=Anthony@bas2-toronto06-1242510988.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:18:06 jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:21:27 There's clearly a couple potential race conditions in the current architecture, but I don't think adding :autoclose introduces any badness. 04:22:08 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 04:22:58 any Clozure hackers around? 04:23:38 pkhuong: that's good to hear. thanks for thinking through this 04:23:51 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:24:07 where do you think the race conditions are? 04:25:02 Stuff like getting a stream while another thread closes the socket. 04:28:10 I will have to think about this more later too. I'm currently busy on the project itself and don't have enough concentration to spare. 04:28:15 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:05 -!- erk [n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:30:34 erk [n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 04:31:07 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-80-181.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:38:06 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:42:22 -!- clairvy [n=clairvy@219-106-253-18.cust.bit-drive.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:45:48 loxs [n=loxs@82.119.85.174] has joined #lisp 04:46:27 -!- loxs [n=loxs@82.119.85.174] has quit [Client Quit] 04:46:50 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ac9a3a62eabc2f2a] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:47:11 _stern_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47040.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:47:20 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [] 04:55:10 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 04:55:40 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:58:10 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:44 Good morning. 04:59:11 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-d742a53620ef1043] has joined #lisp 05:00:33 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:02:57 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-212-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:23 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E47571.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:12:33 jan247_ [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 05:16:18 |Trickster| [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has joined #lisp 05:16:37 -!- jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:16:40 clairvy [n=clairvy@219-106-253-18.cust.bit-drive.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 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-!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:12:25 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:13:30 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:13:33 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:15:42 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 06:16:11 Hello 06:35:03 hallo 06:35:04 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0DDC.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:39:01 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.46.104] has joined #lisp 06:42:47 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-189.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:43:06 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:47:10 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 06:47:12 -!- _stern_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47040.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:47:14 |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E47040.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:50 i am out of ideas atm; anyone know of a way to authorize a user on behalf of a remote script? 06:48:09 daniel___ [n=daniel@p5082DFCB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:48:11 dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has joined #lisp 06:48:19 say, like OpenID or paypa, when you're transfered to the paypal site to login then sent back to the refering site 06:48:35 how do I slime-edit-definition a setf-designator? 06:50:10 -!- Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@pppoe-88-147-233-41.san.ru] has left #lisp 06:50:23 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 06:51:30 fusss: what kind of authorization? Do you need to pass an authorization token to another program? 06:51:40 yes 06:52:05 fusss: have you looked into how Kerberos works? I'm not saying to replicate it exactly, but it might prove useful 06:52:46 Site A has a sign in form, user fills it, data is sent to Site B. If user is not authorized, redirect user to Signup/Forgotpass form. If authorized, ???, profit. 06:53:23 Isn't that a little how OpenID works? 06:53:30 still, it's kinda complex issue that is covered partially in cryptography and can be sometimes skimmed down 06:53:31 cookies can be forged, but I can do this on https, rewrite URL and redirect the logged in user to the approriate page on Site A? 06:54:00 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:54:15 antoszka: that's what I said, like "OpenID and Paypal" 06:54:49 fusss: Ah sorry, just switched over to the discussion and didn't preread much :) 06:54:58 I will do it over s/http and encode a session token in the URL 06:56:25 fusss: you could encrypt time&tokens with public key of the Site B, passes it in arguments, Site B checks if tokens pass and time doesn't expire, if it does, it redirects back with it's own "request for authentication" argument and some token to recognize session, redo from start 06:56:37 S11001001: On the symbol, if there's a setf function, it will list it in the xref buffer 06:57:01 p_l: well, you're bloody smart. well, duh, yes, of course 06:57:16 *fusss* shouldn't have had that first beer at 4:30PM 06:57:31 fusss: I just happened to read a book on crypto loong time ago. It's part of that 0.01% that I remembered :P 06:57:50 I just remember Alice 06:58:28 (okay, I admit, inter-system auth/sec is in my sphere of interests ^^;) 06:59:25 -!- logBot0026 [n=logBot@59.96.44.216] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:59:52 copying the engineering prowess of PHPers is my forte 07:00:18 S11001001: Alternatively, #'(setf foo) at the REPL, then right click on the presentation, and click on Find Definition 07:01:13 clicking, what is this? ;) 07:01:21 *p_l* just wastes time enjoying mystery horror novel with great soundtrack 07:01:29 *S11001001* is a terminally terminal user here 07:01:31 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:02:42 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:03:25 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:03:31 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:05 angerman [n=angerman@p57A3A90D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:06:48 -!- daniel___ is now known as daniel 07:07:48 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.178.31] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:09:02 -!- vy [n=user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has left #lisp 07:10:17 angerman_ [n=angerman@p57A39404.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:11:22 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-127-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:16 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-3-3.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:19:32 ASau [n=user@host118-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:20:32 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-23-51.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:21:39 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 07:22:41 Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has joined #lisp 07:23:13 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 07:23:36 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:23:37 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:23:49 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-14-61.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:25:55 -!- angerman [n=angerman@p57A3A90D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:29:16 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:31:56 * (char-equal #\Ð #\) => NIL Hmm... 07:32:42 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:33:47 my font agrees with that, fwiw 07:33:58 mine too 07:34:12 prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:12 Krystof: What does it mean for the font to agree with it? 07:34:32 07:34:32 (mapcar 'char-name '(#\Ð #\ )) --> ("U08D0" "U0004FABD") 07:34:52 I see your message as "(char-equal #\ #\)" 07:35:24 good-morning 07:35:36 *_3b* sees those characters as #\LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_ETH and #\REPLACEMENT_CHARACTER 07:35:49 Yes, that's strange the first character displays as #x000D0 208 Ð "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_ETH" 07:36:04 it should be latin_small_letter_d_with_stroke 07:37:19 <_3b> #\ð ? 07:37:24 but yeah, I see the problem. It is trying to compare latin capital letter eth with that. 07:37:49 (princ #( #\LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_ETH #\latin_capital_letter_d_with_stroke)) --> #(Ð ) display the same but have different codes (208 272) 07:38:48 pjb: Yeah, so the vietnamese VIQR mode for Emacs creates an ETH when I type "D d", whereas it should create the capital letter d with stroke. 07:40:16 They left some ambiguities in unicode. These same-looking characters were supposed to be unified originally, but they dropped the requirement. Same as latin A and cyrilic A, etc. 07:41:01 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:41:05 string-equal with unicode could be funny :-) 07:41:17 *_3b* 's font has different glyphs for _d_with_stroke and _eth 07:42:06 lowercase? Yes 07:42:14 <_3b> or rather emacs shows them differently, not actually sure they come from the same fonts :) 07:42:24 <_3b> upper and lower are different for me 07:42:53 Yes, in small case: (princ #( #\LATIN_small_LETTER_ETH #\latin_small_letter_d_with_stroke)) --> #(ð ) 07:43:07 they're different. 07:44:00 -!- clairvy [n=clairvy@219-106-253-18.cust.bit-drive.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 07:45:19 Thanks guys. I just replaced the ETH by D with stroke in my buffer. But that's an annoying bug in the VIQR input method. 07:46:09 nice. just built sbcl my 8GB RAM machine. epeen! 07:47:20 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:48:58 *p_l* recently looked over a laptop with 12GB of RAM... unfortunately, 12k EUR is a little too much ^^; 07:50:34 half of it was SSD 07:52:20 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 07:53:56 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 07:54:19 for 12k euro i can get a laptop with GPS navigation, 4 seats and gets 80miles to the gallon 07:54:24 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest22101 07:54:30 haha 07:54:49 Now I am totally confused. In viet-util.el, the character is correct, but the comment is wrong. 07:55:11 lghtng [n=user@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 07:55:11 fusss: well, that particular config had 4 SSD drives, each >1200 EUR before tax 07:56:00 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:56:53 is there some "standard" technique in CL for linking together modules at run-time? If I have a module called my-website.ui that needs a controller in order to work, is it standard practice to make the ui depend on the asdf system my-website.controller-interface and then at run-time require my-website.controller and somehow let the ui know about it? The point of this would be to allow for separate compilation of the modules without any compiler war 07:57:13 Soulman [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:57:14 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:57:21 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.141.79] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:57:27 -!- Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:57:39 Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@pppoe-88-147-233-41.san.ru] has joined #lisp 07:58:12 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:58:34 pve: i don't think i have ever seen that much architecture thrown at a web app 07:58:37 what's this? MVC? 07:59:36 brb 07:59:46 model-view-component? 07:59:59 controller 08:00:01 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 08:00:58 the web site was just an example, i'm interested in techniques of linking two large subsystems together in such a way that they can both bw compiled separately 08:01:08 bw=be 08:01:14 -!- Guest22101 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 08:01:22 apt 08:01:32 j/k 08:01:42 pve: I don't see what the problem is 08:01:43 sorta 08:01:56 lghtng: You don't make any sense. 08:02:48 lghtng: You are new here right? 08:03:15 pve: To start with, Common Lisp doesn't have a concept of a module, so what is a module in your case? 08:03:32 sry, im envisioning a synaptic terminal not an asdf pull, im low skill :| 08:03:49 pve: (actually I take that back. I think the word "module" exists in the Common Lisp HyperSpec) 08:03:59 beach: let's say one asdf system, containing one namespace 08:04:11 be brilliant 08:04:50 and i will read sawfish wiki 08:04:54 pve: Why don't you just load everything before executing the web application? 08:05:21 lghtng: Try to make some sense, or lurk harder. 08:05:34 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:06:08 -!- FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:06:41 pve: instead of run-time loading, think runtime invokation. 08:06:46 I load the site asdf 08:07:12 beach: yes, that's what would happen in the end, but the problem is to choose one particular implementation of the model that the web site should use (there may be 5 different models) 08:07:19 then I load the models, which create the ORM mapping between CLOS classes and database tables, after that the site is functional 08:07:33 pve: Why don't you load them all? 08:07:54 and the ui should not refer explicitly to any of the models' namespaces 08:08:24 again, assuming a wep app.. it was just an example 08:08:40 pve: How do you choose a model? 08:08:51 newdep [n=pedon@3E33C9F4.dslaccess.aol.com] has joined #lisp 08:09:10 beach: there might be a stable/dev division of models, instance 08:09:38 pve: I am asking what mechanism you use in order to select the appropriate one among the 5. 08:10:20 that was my question as well :) 08:10:21 i would like to know if there exists some "standard" mechanism for doing that 08:11:05 pve: I would load them all, make each implementation a different subclass of some model superclass, and stick the appropriate model instance in some global variable used by the UI. 08:11:08 i'd look at the way franz does it 08:14:06 beach: yes, something like that would probably work 08:14:23 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:14:36 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:36 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:36 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:36 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:36 -!- Bootvis [i=bob@baltar.lan.endoria.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:36 -!- [df] [n=df@bspencer.plus.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:36 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:36 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:36 -!- cp2_ [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:36 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:36 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:36 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:36 -!- DrForr [n=drforr@pool-173-55-19-85.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:36 -!- frodef [n=ffj@226.80-202-87.nextgentel.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:36 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:36 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:36 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:36 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-8-251.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:36 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:36 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-207-110.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:36 -!- mqt [i=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:36 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:36 -!- kefka [n=user@ec2-75-101-205-165.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:36 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:36 -!- pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:36 -!- cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:36 -!- koollman [n=samson_t@sd-10510.dedibox.fr] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:36 -!- bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:41 lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:14:47 Now, why is it that my ordinary CLIM application can display all vietnamese characters correctly, but Climacs can not? It must be that Climacs uses a different font, but how can I find out which one is used by default by mcclim-truetype? 08:15:03 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:15:06 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 Bootvis [i=bob@baltar.lan.endoria.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 [df] [n=df@bspencer.plus.com] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 cp2_ [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 DrForr [n=drforr@pool-173-55-19-85.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 frodef [n=ffj@226.80-202-87.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-8-251.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-207-110.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 mqt [i=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 kefka [n=user@ec2-75-101-205-165.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 koollman [n=samson_t@sd-10510.dedibox.fr] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 08:17:48 beach: so in your scheme, the ui would only need to depend on an interface that the models implement? I'm asking because the model might not be available because some other guy in the team is still working on it or because he's broken the build etc etc 08:18:21 Reav___ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 08:18:38 pve: Right, the UI would depend only on the interface of the model. 08:18:41 beach: how would an ordinary CLIM app's font choice differ from climacs'? 08:19:05 antifuchs: I think there is a global variable that holds the Climacs default font. 08:19:10 ah, hmm. 08:19:44 kkaji` [n=plinka@87.110.231.66] has joined #lisp 08:19:46 *climacs-text-style* 08:19:58 beach: ok, in that case having a separate asdf system for the controller interface seems like a good idea 08:20:05 thanks 08:20:12 pve: No problem. 08:20:12 -!- kkaji` [n=plinka@87.110.231.66] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:20:24 well, if you use (with-text-style (t *climacs-text-style*) ...) in any other clim app, does it break on vietnamese? 08:20:45 antifuchs: I'll try it. Hold on... 08:21:13 |Soulman| [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:21:14 pve: it's a good idea for deployment cleanliness, sucks for active everyday hacking 08:21:56 i am thinking times when you need to evaluate forms, possibly macro-wrapped ones which you need to evaluate in two places, over and over again, while debugging. 08:22:16 hmm 08:22:22 antifuchs: Nope that still works. 08:22:24 that's when you write functions that do this for you (: 08:22:32 beach: then it must be something else that climacs does 08:22:34 how does it break? 08:22:38 my current setup has a model file which loads classes definitions for the ORM, and I have wrapped macros which generate HTML. To test a single change I have to evaluate two forms and load a file. a BITCH. 08:22:46 does it look like encoding problems? 08:22:59 antifuchs: it is just that some glyphs are not displayed correctly (and get replaced by a rectangle) 08:23:04 hmmm. 08:23:29 antifuchs: I don't think it is an encoding problem. Climacs doesn't do anything fancy to the text it reads. 08:23:34 in emacs, you get inspect-character... does climacs have any character inspection functions? 08:23:41 not that I know 08:23:43 well, it uses an external format to read the file 08:23:51 sure, UTF-8 08:24:01 hm. 08:24:19 antifuchs: That can't be the problem, because most vietnamese-specific glyphs are displayed correctly. 08:25:19 ok, that sounds very strange. 08:25:49 -!- Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@pppoe-88-147-233-41.san.ru] has left #lisp 08:25:49 maybe you can find some regularity re. which characters can't be displayed? 08:26:04 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:26:18 yeah, it's o with a hook and e with circumflex and dot undneath. 08:26:33 since you mention mcclim-truetype, it's plausible that there are some glyphs that zpb-ttf or mcclim-truetype doesn't like 08:26:49 but huh, I suppose that other clim app uses mcclim-truetype as well 08:26:59 you did test in the exact same clim setup, right? 08:27:00 antifuchs: No, because that is also what I am using for my ordinary CLIM app. 08:27:07 antifuchs: yes. 08:27:15 ok, then that makes no sense 08:27:43 best inspect the climacs buffer object and make sure that the code points are exactly the ones that should be there 08:28:10 antifuchs: Sure, though it would be surprising if that were the problem. 08:28:20 life is full of surprises (-: 08:28:26 indeed. 08:29:04 also, that's the essence of debugging. it's always what you /don't/ expect (-: 08:30:00 -!- FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:30:18 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Success] 08:30:35 wait, there is something fishy yere... 08:30:53 joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 08:32:05 later 08:32:08 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.46.104] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.13/2009073022]"] 08:32:32 antifuchs: Sorry, I lied. My CLIM application does break when I use the climacs text style 08:32:37 ah 08:32:56 then that sounds like mcclim-truetype or zpb-ttf specific breakage 08:33:13 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:33:26 antifuchs: on that particular font, yes. 08:33:37 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has joined #lisp 08:33:43 maybe others as well 08:33:47 sure 08:33:53 could be the font that's buggy or the interpreter (: 08:33:59 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:34:00 antifuchs: But I should be able to convince Climacs to use the same font as mcclim-truetype uses by default. 08:34:09 that's cool (: 08:36:08 which font is it, by the way? 08:36:16 (maybe it just doesn't have the code points in question) 08:36:55 Climacs just does (make-text-style :fix nil nil) 08:37:34 So if I can find out what mcclim-truetype does, that should work. 08:38:03 Oh, wait. perhaps that Climacs text style was created before mcclim-truetype was loaded. 08:38:20 shouldn't make a difference, IIRC 08:38:27 really? 08:38:31 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:39:06 as far as I remember, text-styles are converted to font objects via the port later on. 08:39:22 clim text styles just specify family, face and size 08:39:23 Invalid index 0: must be between 0 and -1. 08:39:23 ah, that could be. 08:41:17 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.141.136] has joined #lisp 08:41:20 OK, so I have to figure out how the text style for an ordinary application pane is created. 08:43:27 HG` [n=wells@xdslep244.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:46:10 Experimental/freetype/xrender-fonts.lisp has a mapping of text style families/faces to font names 08:46:15 Perhaps try the font selector demo in McCLIM to see which fonts work. 08:46:46 antifuchs: I saw that, but then that should be used for the Climacs mapping as well. 08:46:51 so if you use *vera-families/faces* in your *families/faces* variable, then you get fonts with a few code points missing 08:47:10 the dejavu fonts have more glyphs for non-iso-latin chars, IIRC 08:47:45 also, it should be clim-clx::text-style-to-X-font that does the text style->x font translation 08:48:27 clim text-style-mapping 08:48:27 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/11-3.html#_595 08:48:30 ^^ see also 08:48:34 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.141.136] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:49:03 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.141.136] has joined #lisp 08:49:23 OK, so the text style used in my application that works has family:sans-serif and face:roman 08:50:12 girzel [n=user@123.121.223.23] has joined #lisp 08:51:00 and *IT WORKS* 08:51:35 by changing the Climacs text style to :sans-serif and :roman, I can display all characters. 08:53:46 crod [n=cmell@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 08:57:14 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.141.136] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:57:38 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.141.136] has joined #lisp 08:57:42 -!- lghtng [n=user@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:57:52 lghtng [n=user@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 08:58:03 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:58:06 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:59:14 cool (: 08:59:33 Now, I just have to implement input methods for Climacs. Actually, it would be better to do that on the CLIM level wouldn't it? 08:59:46 you could try replacing the vera fonts with dejavu ones (if you have them installed); maybe that gives you working codes even with the default text style 09:00:05 antifuchs: I'll try that some other time. 09:01:20 Input methods are messy because they alter how the contents of the buffer is displayed. 09:01:43 -!- ASau [n=user@host118-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:01:49 I wonder whether there is a better way of giving feedback to the user that could be used on other CLIM applications as well. 09:02:51 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.249.61] has joined #lisp 09:04:09 Ideally, an application that just wants to read characters should only see the final result of composing all those characters, but the application should be given the option of showing some feedback to the user. 09:05:26 Actually, for Climacs (since it allows any object in the buffer), one could insert a special object that is displayed differently. 09:07:34 Very minor comment on Lisp in games on the Ogre forums: http://www.ogre3d.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=352261#p352261 09:09:41 antifuchs: Any ideas or opinions wrt input methods? 09:12:12 classic 09:12:34 ASau [n=user@host118-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 09:12:57 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 09:13:54 those are the kinds of business decisions that do alot of harm to shareholders 09:15:22 Is lghtng a bot? 09:15:46 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:15:53 in both the Yahoo and Sony cases, the large corporation showed it was more interested in buying goodwill than product, although at least in the Yahoo case they made a reasonable attempt to salvage the acquisition 09:16:37 in the Sony case it was simple dramatics, probably to push some margin one way or another 09:17:08 Could someone with the appropriate privileges please kick/ban lghtng? 09:17:21 unfortunately they ended up putting a rather large torpedo into the side of the lisp gaming community 09:22:12 demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-072-167.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:19 beach: I've only ever dealt with display of unicode chars (: 09:22:22 so no ideas, no 09:23:41 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 09:24:49 cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has joined #lisp 09:24:52 antifuchs: OK. I guess I might just do something Climacs-specific to start with, and then generalize it later. 09:25:02 sounds like a plan 09:25:22 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.141.136] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:26:17 lghtng` [n=user@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 09:27:26 -!- lghtng [n=user@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:32:59 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:35:40 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:38:57 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.249.61] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:38:59 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 09:43:09 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:43:12 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:44:46 fiveop [n=fiveop@e179125213.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:45:38 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:45:48 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-206-08.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:47:59 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslep244.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 09:55:05 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.138.108] has joined #lisp 09:55:32 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:55:57 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:58:58 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-3-3.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:59:30 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:00:40 clairvy [n=clairvy@219-106-253-18.cust.bit-drive.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:00:52 -!- clairvy [n=clairvy@219-106-253-18.cust.bit-drive.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:01:24 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.138.108] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:01:54 benny [n=benny@i577A18D4.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:02:13 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 10:04:44 logBot0831 [n=logBot@59.92.203.234] has joined #lisp 10:05:07 -!- jan247_ [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [] 10:05:25 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:07:22 tymmym [n=user@87-119-237-165.saransk.ru] has joined #lisp 10:08:31 peddie_ [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:39 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:11:23 chris2 [n=chris@p5B169C22.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:11:57 does anyone know who owns sbcl.org DNS? Is it still kmr? 10:16:27 -!- crod [n=cmell@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:18:17 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.72.194] has joined #lisp 10:21:01 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 10:23:30 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:25:37 Pepe___ [n=ppjet@78.116.11.105] has joined #lisp 10:26:38 ZabaQ [n=johnc@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 10:26:59 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@78.113.15.249] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:28:38 -!- newdep [n=pedon@3E33C9F4.dslaccess.aol.com] has left #lisp 10:31:10 Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@pppoe-88-147-233-41.san.ru] has joined #lisp 10:31:59 <_3b> anyone know how to put an empty array or false into clouchdb? 10:33:49 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-189.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:33:55 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:38:06 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:38:26 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.139.221] has joined #lisp 10:41:31 domiel [n=dnj@58.172.210.231] has joined #lisp 10:48:20 -!- ZabaQ [n=johnc@playboxgames.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:51:03 -!- demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-072-167.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 10:52:15 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.72.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:53:22 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:53:33 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 10:54:16 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 10:54:23 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-152-32.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 10:55:17 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.254.114] has joined #lisp 10:57:27 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:58:44 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:43 does cliki search work for you?\ 11:01:12 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.139.221] has quit [Success] 11:02:52 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:05:12 Guest52303 [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:14 hmm what do you use for htmk parsing that doesn't barf on malformed input? 11:07:05 weirdo: HTML? 11:07:08 yes 11:07:10 sorry for typo 11:07:14 weirdo: Look at what closure does. 11:07:33 yeah but i'm getting a strange error 11:07:47 weirdo pasted "closure-html build error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85313 11:07:50 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:08:23 -!- lghtng` [n=user@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:08:49 the SGML package is closure-html itself 11:08:59 so why can't it deal with its own protocol? eh 11:09:18 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:09:30 hello. i would like to compile ecl in $home (no root-rights). i tried ./configure --prefix=/home/trebor/lib --exec-prefix=/home/trebor/bin --infodir=/home/trebor/info --docdir=/home/trebor/Sourcen/ECL/docs --enable-threads=yes --enable-unicode=yes --enable-c99complex=yes ;; make ;; make install - but ~/bin/bin/ecl does not find libecl.so.9.8, which is in ~/bin/lib/libecl.so.9.8 -- what did i do wrong? 11:10:04 probably nothing 11:10:24 try LD_LIBRARY_PATH=~/bin/lib ~/bin/bin/ecl 11:10:36 oh, thanks Xof 11:10:44 if that works, relink the ecl binary to add that to its library search path 11:11:36 be right back, broke my emacs image again 11:11:41 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:12:06 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 11:12:06 what is relinking? using ld? 11:13:00 weirdo: looks like a follow-up error to me. Check that it compiled correctly. 11:13:57 trebor_dki: run ./configure --help and play with LDFLAGS 11:14:13 -!- logBot0831 [n=logBot@59.92.203.234] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:14:37 -!- Guest52303 [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:14:44 thanks, lharc (i've seen ecl-config - is that for this purpose, too?) 11:14:53 -!- domiel [n=dnj@58.172.210.231] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:15:40 trebor_dki: you can also fetch the latest version (9.8.3) and use the --enable-rpath option. 11:15:43 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:57 ahaas_ [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:20 matimago: i did cvs-checkout - /me looking for the rpath-thing - thanks. 11:18:11 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:18:51 c|mell [n=cmell@y192017.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:19:00 ZabaQ [n=johnc@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 11:19:32 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 11:20:21 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.254.114] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:21:06 xinming [n=hyy@122.238.71.177] has joined #lisp 11:21:15 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-225-121.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:36 Xof, lharc, matimago thanks for your hints. for now i am doing a (setenv "LD_LIBRARY_PATH" "/home/trebor/bin/lib") before starting ecl which works (for now) - but i will try to use configure better next time. 11:25:45 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@y192017.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:26:03 c|mell [n=cmell@y192017.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:26:12 xinming_ [n=hyy@122.238.71.231] has joined #lisp 11:26:14 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:27:48 trebor_dki: I did: mv /opt/ecl-9.8.1/bin/ecl /opt/ecl-9.8.1/bin/ecl-9.8.1 ; ( echo '#!/bin/bash' ; echo 'export LD_LIBRARY_PATH="/opt/ecl-9.8.1/lib:$LD_LIBRARY_PATH"' ; echo 'exec /opt/ecl-9.8.1/bin/ecl-9.8.1' ) > /opt/ecl-9.8.1/bin/ecl ; chmod 755 /opt/ecl-9.8.1/bin/ecl 11:28:14 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 11:28:23 hello 11:28:28 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-12-46.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 11:28:35 hail 11:28:51 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:30:06 hi levy. Nice to meet you. 11:30:11 Idebesiktningen [i=HydraIRC@95.209.31.98.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 11:30:37 levy: I'm trying to use dwim's persistent-processes and have some problems in the meta-gui 11:31:05 hey kami, our only magic user ;-) 11:31:26 levy: I will keep on bugging you (unfortunately for too long, now) 11:31:33 matimago: you are right, i forgot to append to l_l_p (it was empty). 11:32:05 if you have any question just ask (mails are ok too) 11:32:25 levy: wait a minute, I have to start everything and reproduce the problem 11:32:41 fgtech [n=federico@host100-218-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:33:24 weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 11:33:34 xinming__ [n=hyy@125.109.241.79] has joined #lisp 11:33:44 clbuild sucks 11:33:45 every time i try to build something, a repo is broken/missing 11:34:13 -!- xinming [n=hyy@122.238.71.177] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:34:27 kami-, unfortunately i will probably not be able to reproduce your problems, because for the new upcoming site, i've just refactoring all of our libraries 11:34:40 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 11:34:45 not to mention that my wui is quite different from yours 11:34:56 but still i might be able to help 11:35:21 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-518f978afea409c3] has left #lisp 11:35:38 hmm, maybe not quite, but somewhat (mostly impl. and naming) 11:36:50 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 11:41:24 kami- pasted "NIL is not a valid type here" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85316 11:41:33 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 11:41:58 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 11:42:43 levy: the call to make-place-filter does a find-place-filter-type-for-type which leads to the error 11:43:25 levy: I thought maybe the slot type STANDARD-TEXT is the problem? 11:44:10 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-189.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:44:13 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@122.238.71.231] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:44:21 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:44:26 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-189.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:44:42 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 11:44:49 levy: but OTOH, I've seen standard-text in your sample code, too 11:45:06 standard-text is ok 11:46:30 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:46:35 how does your question relates to persistent-processes? 11:46:42 it seems to me a generic meta gui bug 11:46:59 i'm looking at the old code (which is not loaded) right now 11:47:35 levy: in no way. I /thought/ I saw it only with p-p s, but it also appears elsewhere 11:47:39 kami-, is that standard-text in the right package? 11:48:11 what does find-type-by-name returns for that symbol? 11:48:17 i guess it returns nil 11:48:36 -!- xinming__ [n=hyy@125.109.241.79] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:48:45 -!- Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@pppoe-88-147-233-41.san.ru] has left #lisp 11:49:01 levy: it's external to dwim-meta-model 11:49:07 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@y192017.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:49:22 hmm, that sounds right, could you check find-type-by-name 11:51:24 levy: is it in dwim or perec? I cannot find it. 11:51:59 *trebor_dki* is still trying to figure out how to use configure the right way to compile ecl in his home-dir (no root). last try: ./configure --prefix=/home/DKI/gloecr/local --enable-threads=yes --enable-unicode=yes --enable-c99complex=yes --enable-rpath=yes ;; make ;; make install ;; ~/local/bin/ecl -> "cannot find ecls's directory [2: no such file or directory]" ... bein puzzled 11:52:07 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 11:52:12 kami-, it's in wui.. :-( 11:52:33 levy: thank you. 11:53:11 anyway, make-place-maker supposed to return a component class name that is capable of making new instances of the given type at a place 11:53:37 levy: f-t-b-n returns NIL as you expected 11:53:38 er... it actually returns the component instance 11:54:14 xinming [n=hyy@122.238.65.84] has joined #lisp 11:54:18 there's a kludge.lisp (sounds weird, no?) in integration/cl-perec 11:54:45 yes 11:55:10 so, seems standard-text is nor a class and neither a type 11:56:18 if the symbol is the one defined in dwim as (defptype standard-text ...) then cl-perec:find-type supposed to return a non-nil value for that 11:56:48 trebor_dki: I wonder if it should be --enable-rpath=/home/DKI/gloecr/local/lib ? 11:56:54 levy: well I only used it in a def entity form, so it should be the ptype 11:57:42 levy: when I call (prc::find-type 'dmm::standard-text), the result in NOT nil 11:58:25 hmm, maybe that kludge.lisp is not loaded? 11:59:07 levy: apparently. I'm checking the asd file 11:59:27 <_3b> trebor_dki: maybe cd build between ./configure and make? 11:59:31 kami-, there is this wui-and-cl-perec system 11:59:59 but that should be loaded by dwim-presentation 12:02:19 lharc: doing --enable-rpath=/home/.... did not help 12:02:20 levy: it is there, and in slime-repl, it appears as completions of wui 12:02:39 *as one of the completions of 12:03:32 with M-. do you get to kludge.lisp? 12:03:49 i'm almost sure that you do not 12:04:00 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:04:16 swilde [n=wilde@aktaia.intevation.org] has joined #lisp 12:04:27 levy: no, I'm using the f-t-b-n definition from factory.lisp 12:04:30 _3b: doing ./configure --prefix=/home/DKI/gloecr/local --enable-threads=yes --enable-unicode=yes --enable-c99complex=yes --enable-rpath=yes;; cd build ;; make ;; make install ;; ~/local/bin/ecl -> still "can not find ecl's directory"... 12:04:43 that's the problem 12:04:47 :) 12:05:02 it seems that the wui-and-cl-perec system is not loaded 12:05:18 did you actually load dwim-presentation? 12:05:37 levy: would I be able to see anything of the web app without loading it? 12:05:37 <_3b> trebor_dki: yeah, just realized that was wrong... works here with your original setup (assuming ~ is /home/DKI/gloecr) 12:05:44 bah, this should be so much clearer in the new repos.... 12:05:59 levy: how unstable is wui-unstable? 12:06:16 wui is designed to be usable without dwim, the meta gui should work with standard-classes too 12:06:30 kami-, don't use that yet 12:06:44 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:06:53 we are going to make a live server and as soon as we think it's usable you will know ;-) 12:07:02 levy: OK. Back to wui-and-...: I remember something like 'asdf-system-connections' 12:07:30 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.137.135] has joined #lisp 12:07:45 as fe[nl]ix said earlier: a-s-c are evil :-( 12:08:06 trebor_dki: what if you set LDFLAGS=-Wl ./configure ... ? 12:08:51 hmm, are we looking at the same versions? are you up to date? 12:08:53 levy: What's wrong with a-s-c? 12:09:25 levy: I'm 'quite' pulled. Changes to wui were not very frequent, lately. Wait I'll check. 12:09:31 sellout, it's unreliable, loads in random order, recompiles each time 12:10:12 Ah, ok, so there are problems with the impl, not the concept. 12:10:15 kami-, can you check if that wui-and-... is loaded at all? 12:10:46 sellout, yes 12:10:49 -!- tymmym [n=user@87-119-237-165.saransk.ru] has left #lisp 12:11:16 sellout, BTW the impl. is less than 100 LOC, so maybe someone could just fix it... 12:11:17 levy: I loaded it explicitly and the result remains the same: find-type-by-name returns NIL 12:12:44 <_3b> trebor_dki: does ~/local/lib/ecl-9.8.3/ (or similar) exist? 12:12:51 looking at the implementation of find-type-by-name in kludge.lisp, and the fact that cl-perec:find-type did NOT return nil, that is impossible 12:13:01 levy: wait! I use build-image to create a core with everything (apart from my code) in it. Things probably have gone the wrong way at that time. 12:13:28 -!- xinming [n=hyy@122.238.65.84] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:13:40 levy: let me check the image dependencies. 12:15:26 shell gurus: how does one run a command in each subdirectory of the current directory with a single line? 12:15:31 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:55 bah, shells are evil 12:16:27 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:17:08 yow, this is fun. closure-html fails to build with *print-case* :downcase 12:17:25 find -maxdepth 1 -type d -exec ...? 12:17:25 Yeah, slugs rule. 12:17:55 find ... -print0 | xargs -0 12:18:16 sellout: perhaps the implementation could be fixed (i.e., without rewriting ASDF. I don't understand ASDF well enough to say. Apparent the author of a-s-c didn't either). The conceptual issues would remain in any case. 12:19:39 -!- ZabaQ [n=johnc@playboxgames.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:20:24 xargs does not work, i also have to cd into the subdirs 12:20:41 levy: for f in `ls -F | grep /` ; do echo $f ; done 12:21:41 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:24:45 kami-, thx, that did the trick 12:24:50 _3b: yes in ~/local/lib -> ecl-9.8.3/ libecl.so libecl.so.9 libecl.so.9.8 libecl.so.9.8.3/ 12:26:01 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-225-121.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:26:10 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 12:27:01 kami, doesn't work if you have spaces in directory names 12:27:02 ZabaQ [n=johnc@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-189.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:30:12 azuk``: that's right. I don't have spaces in directory names :) 12:33:47 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 12:33:57 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-206-08.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:37:39 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 12:37:44 this has probably been discussed, here: http://pvaneynd.livejournal.com/129177.html 12:38:00 the debian common-lisp package maintainers are retiring 12:38:37 Are people here who are experienced in the processes related to debian packages? 12:39:04 removing lisp packages is a good move 12:39:25 Most people seem to have problems with the Common Lisp Controller. 12:39:27 stassats: because much of the were stale? 12:39:36 s/the/them 12:39:50 that, and weird CLC 12:41:11 beach, stassats: if the community would prefer writing fasls to ~/.fasls, then one would remove CLC 12:41:57 I would like to know how much work is there to do besides the technical part of building and uploading the packages. 12:42:11 i use asdf-binary-locations 12:42:19 and write fals to ~/lisp/fasls 12:43:00 stassats: with asdf-binary-locations, am I free to choose the fasl location? 12:43:23 yes 12:43:25 stassats: and does it take care of different implementations? 12:43:31 yes 12:43:49 stassats: so, it basically does the same as CLC? 12:43:57 % ls ~/lisp/fasls => ccl-1.4-linux-x86-64/ from-slime/ sbcl-1.0.30.31-linux-x86-64/ 12:43:58 12:44:15 OK. 12:44:35 kami-: it's basically an asdf extension for placing fasls 12:44:54 kami-: Would you be interested in taking over from Peter? 12:45:57 beach: I create deb packages from different (mostly clbuild) repos on a regular basis. 12:46:01 I would think the main work would be to make sure that different versions of different programs work together. 12:48:07 anyone has an idea on how to change *print-case* only for REPL results, SLIME inspector, etc? 12:48:09 beach: I have almost 100 packages which are direct or transient dependencies of libs which I use. 12:48:17 *stassats* is using sbcl compilation fro stress-testing 12:48:24 because turning it on globally exposes bugs in systems 12:48:25 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:48:46 beach: so I have a (very rough) test of whether things work, or not 12:48:55 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:49:22 -!- Reav___ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:49:25 s/transient/transitive 12:50:50 weirdo: you can adjust swank:*default-worker-thread-bindings* 12:51:18 there's no specific bindings for inspector 12:51:25 -!- angerman_ [n=angerman@p57A39404.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 12:52:00 beach: maybe I ask Peter on the mailing list about the effort 12:52:26 kami-: Good plan! 12:52:50 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:56 weirdo: you will want to write your own REPL, that will bind *print-case* only arround the PRINT call, instead of including the READ and EVAL calls. 12:54:13 levy: do I understand correctly that I can define custome states for persistent-processes? 12:54:39 matimago, thank you 12:55:07 weirdo: see for example: http://paste.lisp.org/display/18280 12:55:34 Add your bindings around the FORMAT. 12:57:01 weirdo: notice that Allegro CL keeps a separate set of special variables for toplevel (REPL) *toplevel-print-case* (I'd guess, there's *toplevel-print-length* etc). You will probably want to do the same, so you can easily change either the eval *print-case* or the REPL (PRINT) ones. 12:57:53 weirdo: this probably doesn't answer the slime part of your question. Sorry. 12:58:04 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-218.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 12:58:19 levy: thank you very much. I just dumped a new core with dwim-presentation and everything. The error is gone! 12:58:55 levy: I'll write to the ML about my p-p question. Thank you. 12:58:57 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:58:59 bye 12:59:05 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has left #lisp 12:59:38 matimago, *d-t-w-b* appears to work everywhere, not only for the REPL 13:02:51 is there a git command to send a patch to a maintainer? 13:03:05 got it already 13:08:40 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:09:28 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 13:09:35 *trebor_dki* got it -> make realclean ;; ./configure --prefix=/home/trebor/local --enable-rpath=yes ;; cd build ;; make ;; make install ;; cd ~/bin ;; ./ecl -> works (finally ;) 13:11:26 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:11:48 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-189.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 13:16:04 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:18:27 trebor_dki: noted. I'll recompile ecl this evening, thank you. ;-) 13:20:21 -!- prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:20:35 prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:43 -!- azuk`` is now known as azuk 13:21:05 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:01 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:25:08 levy: for d in $(find . -mindepth 1 -maxdepth 1 -type d); do pushd $d; ; popd; done 13:25:28 Aaaaaarargghhhhhh. I HATE @#$@!#$ Microsoft Word!!!!! 13:25:31 Sorry. 13:25:43 matimago: i would like to look at the c-code of a function how do i do right: (defun foo (a) (1+ a)) (disassemble 'foo)? 13:26:17 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-9-70.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:27:34 trebor_dki: read documentation 13:27:40 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:27:54 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:29:28 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-206-08.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:29:32 wow clbuild is fun 13:29:38 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 13:30:29 that said, i can't find myself where it was in the documentation 13:31:40 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #lisp 13:31:47 -!- carrl [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:31:59 carrl [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has joined #lisp 13:32:20 weirdo pasted "clbuild from the repl" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85320 13:32:23 stassats: http://ecls.sourceforge.net/new-manual/ch26s05.html "Thus the disassemble function in ECL accepts not-yet-compiled functions only and displays the translated C code." -> but how do i do it in a buffer - not in the repl? 13:33:19 hmm perhaps M-x slime-clbuild would be better 13:33:29 or clbuild.el 13:34:21 stassats: i mean - how do i do it in a .lisp buffer (linux/emacs/slime)? 13:35:13 trebor_dki: (compile-file "foo.lisp" :c-file "foo.c") 13:37:12 trebor_dki: I'm just starting using ecl. I might use it to deploy a project I have in mind (ecl might be better accepted by the customers). 13:37:49 gigamonkey: be happy, Microsoft has been forbidden to sell MS-Word in the USA! 13:38:39 http://news.google.com/news/search?pz=1&ned=fr&hl=fr&q=microsoft+word+forbidden 13:40:11 hm. even using the repl does not work like written in http://ecls.sourceforge.net/new-manual/ch26s05.html - i only get nil. compiling full files is a first work-around (thanks stassats) 13:40:38 ecl's manual is really bad, right 13:40:48 matimago: frankly, I think this was a _terrible_ call on the judge's part 13:41:20 dlowe: how dare you say that ? patents are sacred 13:43:47 dlowe: software patents are bad, but it's good that for once, it be the big corporation that is hit by them. Perhaps that will make them understand and they (the big corporation) will start lobbying against software patents. 13:43:56 *matimago* can always dream. 13:44:17 matimago: your optimism clearly knows no boundaries 13:44:28 :-) 13:45:18 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 13:46:09 jd8hh57 [n=mickey@host217-34-51-26.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 13:47:44 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.183.111] has joined #lisp 13:48:34 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:48:44 -!- ineiros [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:55:21 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:59 what do you use to uncomment a sexp? #+nil? 14:00:17 uncomment? 14:00:26 eh, i mean comment out 14:00:37 #+(or) 14:00:47 bah, that's even uglier 14:00:57 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32C186.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:33 #; is a great candidate that is trivial to implement 14:01:37 M-C-k 14:01:42 instant pretty comment 14:01:53 pretty in what sense? 14:02:05 -!- Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has quit [] 14:02:08 it deletes sexp 14:02:47 -!- prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["leaving"] 14:02:51 logBot2693 [n=logBot@59.92.191.174] has joined #lisp 14:03:57 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-189.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:04:07 hmm could use comment-sexp 14:04:18 -!- logBot2693 [n=logBot@59.92.191.174] has quit [Success] 14:04:32 M-h M-; 14:04:44 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.122.5] has joined #lisp 14:04:58 stassats, it's not about your keybindings 14:05:10 logBot1005 [n=logBot@59.92.191.174] has joined #lisp 14:05:16 that's not mine, that's emacs's 14:05:29 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:05:30 anyone knows how to get at the beginning of a sexp (like a symbol) when in the middle of it? 14:06:16 weirdo: M-b M-C-Space 14:06:33 thank you 14:06:52 though, it's not really good, won't work on foo-bar 14:07:05 -!- morganb is now known as barongearmu 14:07:13 stassats, there's paredit-backward 14:07:15 but that's not what i want 14:07:18 -!- barongearmu is now known as morganb 14:07:27 if i'm at the beginning already it will go one sexp back 14:07:35 C-M-B M-C-Space will work 14:07:45 weirdo: oh, i see 14:08:21 prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:35 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.122.5] has quit [Client Quit] 14:09:19 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 14:09:51 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:11:31 weirdo: (defun mark-sexp* () (interactive) (goto-char (beginning-of-thing 'sexp)) (mark-sexp)) 14:11:44 thank you! 14:14:41 *stassats* only now noticed that weirdo didn't ask about marking 14:14:43 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 14:14:50 Greetings. 14:15:50 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host100-218-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:15:56 can sbcl compile into native executables? All I currently can get are files with a .fasl extension and they're not in a format like ELF 14:16:14 minion: creating executables? 14:16:15 creating executables: Newcomers to Lisp often ask how to "create an executable" from their Lisp program. http://www.cliki.net/creating%20executables 14:16:17 Geralt: sure. check out sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die 14:17:32 -!- ZabaQ [n=johnc@playboxgames.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:19:16 minion: thanks 14:19:16 no problem 14:19:29 Xach: can't even find it on google, what's that? 14:19:42 it's a function 14:19:55 Geralt: http://l1sp.org/sbcl/sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die has the documentation (i think) 14:20:07 Xach: thanks 14:20:21 Geralt: basically freezes the state of your application into a single file that can call a custom function when you run it. 14:20:35 Geralt: it's pretty handy. 14:21:40 fgtech [n=federico@host100-218-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:23:57 angerman [n=angerman@p57A39FC8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:25:11 weirdo pasted "comment-sexp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85323 14:25:51 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host100-218-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:26:06 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:26:12 -!- prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["leaving"] 14:26:46 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-72-38.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:27:16 prg_ [n=prg@91.214.124.1] has joined #lisp 14:27:51 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 14:28:44 ZabaQ [n=johnc@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 14:29:04 -!- ZabaQ [n=johnc@playboxgames.com] has left #lisp 14:29:49 ZabaQ [n=johnc@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 14:31:08 http://blog.woobling.org/2009/08/reset-hack-shift-return-0.html 14:31:10 ha-ha-ha 14:31:24 poor perl programmers have to jump through hoops to write a simple macro 14:32:48 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:07 weirdo, my key point was to suggest a different syntax that is more intentional than #+(or) 14:33:16 since ; is line comment 14:33:24 #; seems to be a nice sexp comment 14:33:32 i usually use #+nil which is pretty idiomatic 14:33:41 but beginning-of-sexp i wrote sucks 14:33:52 stassats would do better than me :) 14:34:33 http://www.nicta.com.au/news/home_page_content_listing/world-first_research_breakthrough_promises_safety-critical_software_of_unprecedented_reliability 14:34:36 this is absurd 14:34:53 i'm sure they included all ways hardware the kernel manages could operate. right? 14:35:04 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit ["Verlassend"] 14:35:14 it'll be most hilarious when their kernel fails despite being "formally" "proven" 14:35:23 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:35:25 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 14:35:50 weirdo: #+nil fails on New Implementation of Lisp 14:36:02 also, pranksters can push :nil on *features* and everything will blow up 14:36:02 Dawgmatix [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:09 better to use #+#:no 14:36:15 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 14:36:26 weirdo: the idiom has been discussed on cll and changed to #+(and) #-(and) or #+(and) #+(or) 14:36:31 yeah but i can never remember if it's #+(or) or #-(or) 14:36:44 antifuchs, is it really that bad, can't we come up with a better idea??? 14:36:52 weirdo: (defun comment-sexp () (interactive) (goto-char (beginning-of-thing 'sexp)) (mark-sexp) (comment-dwim nil)) 14:37:00 (and) = true, (or) = false ; try: (values (and) (or)) 14:37:45 stassats, beginning-of-sexp on (foo (bar) 14:37:47 oops 14:38:04 the weird thing with common lisp is that it is a programmable programming language except you are not supposed to change its syntax... 14:38:17 i think using #+(or) is so lame 14:38:20 stassats, beginning-of-sexp on (foo |(bar)) jumps to the beginning. shouldn't it stay on the cursor? 14:38:24 levy: sure, change it in the application, not the application's code. 14:38:42 levy, we need tcr to finish editor-hints 14:38:50 weirdo: it stays for me 14:38:58 stassats, emacs 23? 14:39:05 yep 14:39:16 pkhuong, and why not? 14:39:18 stassats, remove the | cursor and it won't 14:39:25 i mean, place your cursor where | is and remove | 14:39:30 weirdo: you know, if I had written 200,000 lines of unit tests for 7,500 lines of code, I'd be pretty confident of it too 14:39:39 weirdo: that's what i did 14:39:47 quote: They have successfully verified 7,500 lines of C code and proved over 10,000 intermediate theorems in over 200,000 lines of formal proof. 14:40:04 then why does the damn thing jump to |(foo ...) for me... 14:40:08 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:40:14 don't confuse proofs with unit tests 14:40:19 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:40:45 did they get schematics for all the hardware they use and verify each possible interaction? 14:40:48 if not, it's bollocks 14:40:54 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32C186.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:55 Zhivago: I think dlowe's point is that a comparable amount of work in unit tests would give him comparable confidence. 14:41:08 Hmm, what an odd person ... 14:41:08 lisp is so nice because its semantics are so easily provable 14:41:20 yeah, what pkhuong said. 14:41:32 Why would a bunch of spot tests give you the same confidence as a proof? 14:41:43 weirdo: if you mean cursor is on the space, then yes 14:41:47 Zhivago: same reason people trust bounded model checking. 14:41:52 but i expect it to be so 14:42:22 weirdo: Well the function subset allowed in ACL2 anyhow. Once you have side effects thaings get more complicated. 14:42:27 Ah, optimism. 14:42:31 functional 14:42:32 Zhivago: code isn't continuous. With enough spot tests, it's possible to verify every operation *shrug* 14:42:53 dlowe: Failure of reasoning. 14:43:09 jthing, also, acl2 can't figure out first-class functions 14:43:11 Zhivago: You can have a failure of reasoning in a proof, too 14:43:19 Zhivago: at some point, the problem of a mispecification becomes as likely as (or more than) a misimplementation. 14:43:29 microsoft's provers supposedly can 14:43:56 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:59 dlowe: extremely unlikely in a mechanically checked proof, since the kernels are fairly small and have been checked multiple times by Smart People. 14:44:01 tests aren't usually created all at once, but added as bugs arise 14:44:07 wierdo: equality of functions is ill defined 14:44:33 jthing, why? functions are equal if their code is equal and their lexical environment is equal 14:44:57 weirdo: And their dynamic environment :) 14:45:15 It's weird how the religion of TDD is causing people to think that spot tests are equivalent to proofs. 14:45:18 anyone here use pbook.el? 14:45:21 if dynamic environment is passed around then it could be compared too... 14:45:34 wierdo: it's a bit more complicated than that. I just read this in Lisp in Small Peices today. 14:45:53 aerique: sure. I use it more often to print code with xref than as a semi-literate programming tool. 14:45:53 TDD? 14:45:58 top-down design? 14:46:03 test-driven development 14:46:04 Zhivago: it's weird how an emotional subject can cause people to pigeonhole another's stance 14:46:10 Test Driven Development 14:46:29 in lisp, bottom-up programming mostly replaces tests 14:46:34 dlowe: There's nothing emotional about it. 14:46:34 wierdo: for one thing what is the equality supposed to mean? in Lisp it usually means the functions are eq. Another definition would be equal. 14:46:50 ineiros [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 14:47:03 Zhivago: A proof is just a convincing argument, not some absolute truth. Even if it were, it's not always obvious (i.e. proven) that one has proved the right thing. 14:47:06 jthing, well, it should be dependent on what the prover needs to know/do 14:47:26 There are 4 classes of equality. Identity equality, structural equality. etc 14:47:29 phkuong: A proof is absolute truth, given the axioms. 14:47:38 weirdo: Yes, it varies from case to case. 14:48:17 So you woud have to spesify what kind of equality you mean. 14:48:22 pkhuong: i'll give it a shot :) I'd like to render a part of my comment / documentation as an itemized list but I can't figure out how. Straight Latex just ends up in the documentation without being parsed 14:48:34 given 200,000 lines of proof, you need also to trust your mechanical prover 14:48:37 Zhivago: anyway, for the record. I'm not a TDD proponent, nor have I ever claimed to be one. 14:48:40 jthing, i haven't implemented provers, so i don't know :| 14:48:53 aerique: right, pbook only formats code nicely, and comments as straight text + headers. 14:49:15 yeah, you need to check your mechanical prover for correctness 14:49:21 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:49:21 You could fork and add support for mark up. 14:49:26 and the same for the thing that checks the mechanical prover 14:49:28 :) 14:49:54 infinite regression, as per godel's incompleteness theorem 14:50:06 pkhuong: cheers :) 14:50:07 but i guess if a person checked it and a machine prover did then it's ok 14:50:16 Zhivago: I have yet to see such a thing in the real world. Any paper or textbook will skip administrative or algebraic steps. I know I am fallible, even if I don't find any mistake, it doesn't mean much more than "I think this is convincing". 14:51:08 pkhuong: Hurrah for machines which don't. 14:51:08 Mechanically-checked proofs are more convincing, but again not absolute, unless you define the axioms as whatever the trusted kernel *code* accepts, which is downright useless (never mind gamma rays). 14:51:47 Happily, the mechanical checker may be much smaller than the proofs it produces. Therefore it might be easier to trust it, than a longer proof. 14:52:24 matimago: right, but again, it's nothing absolute, just a matter of extremely strong trust. 14:53:16 pkhuong: same as with pythagore's theorem. Just a strong trust. I demonstrated it, you did it too. We trust it to be true. But we might have made an error... 14:53:27 sbcl just crashed, Protocol not found: \"udp\" 14:54:06 the proof also depends on the logic used, not only the axioms 14:54:06 matimago: which is my point. A proof is an argument that I (or whoever I'm communicating with) find convincing. 14:54:08 lharc: do you have /etc/protocols? 14:54:27 some math people consider existential proofs invalid 14:55:02 Xach: yes, and nsswitch.conf points to files, sbcl was working in a loop and after some time this happens. 14:55:14 they didn't even teach me how to conduct a proof in high school. what a load of crap. 14:55:31 lharc: is udp in /etc/protocols? 14:55:32 weirdo: ask for a refund! 14:55:48 weirdo: not at all? 14:56:00 Xach: yes 14:56:06 Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:56:15 weirdo: with a wizard hat, obviously 14:56:17 actually, i had major deficiencies in learning so i only finished up to the half of the third year of math 14:56:21 lharc: weird. i got nothin'. 14:56:23 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.183.111] has quit ["Leaving..."] 14:56:43 my grammar school teacher was a total b*tch and the class has an average grade of 2.6 (between 1-5, 1 is worst) 14:57:07 so much for polish schools 14:57:58 Xach: yeah.. I'll start the loop again and if it happens I'll let sbcl run 14:58:03 weirdo: Don't despair. It may take time, but you can start over learning on your own or in evening classes. 14:58:16 -!- ski__ [n=md9slj@remote3.student.chalmers.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:58:21 matimago, i'm waiting for september to start and then i'll take some private classes 14:58:24 weirdo: thanks to the Internet, you can learn a lot from home. 14:58:29 the person who teaches isn't available through spring break 14:58:48 It's summer now up North... 14:58:56 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:05 i plan to learn that way what i need to read equations and select branch of mathematics i want to study 14:59:12 it might take a while... a long while 14:59:26 matimago, right, spring 14:59:31 jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:59:32 oh, summer 15:00:12 matimago, learning mathematics isn't so easy as an autodidact as is programming, especially for a person with so much deficiency in formal education 15:00:34 learn mathematics through programming then 15:00:45 weirdo: yes, but there are even videos of courses. 15:00:46 Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 15:00:51 got any links for stuff i could read? 15:01:14 http://www.google.fr/search?q=video+mathematic+lectures 15:01:23 i've seen once a proof of Godel's theorem in lisp 15:01:25 -!- Idebesiktningen is now known as Jobbesiktningen 15:01:30 i tried reading spivak's calculus but it presumed the reader knows what proofs are and how to conduct them 15:01:48 levy, how does it work? does infinite recursion in PROVE? :) 15:02:07 just type X and press enter 15:02:10 read "What Is Mathematics? An Elementary Approach to Ideas and Methods"? 15:02:13 now you have a Godel question 15:02:49 BTW, an oldish windows prolog used to answer with: after ten million years... 42 15:03:04 when the first time i saw it i was laughing for minutes 15:03:36 stassats, can't find a torrent or a pdf :( 15:03:59 weirdo: try harder 15:04:06 wait, i can 15:04:16 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 15:05:15 -!- prg_ [n=prg@91.214.124.1] has quit ["leaving"] 15:05:36 Welcome to SWI-Prolog (Multi-threaded, 64 bits, Version 5.6.64) ?- X. % ... 1,000,000 ............ 10,000,000 years later % % >> 42 << (last release gives the question) 15:06:03 stassats, thank you :) 15:06:15 but, it's not windows and not oldish 15:07:13 so the answer for The Question did not change meanwhile... 15:07:22 milanj [n=milan@93.87.140.90] has joined #lisp 15:07:52 -!- _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:08:05 maybe the Question to the Answer changed 15:08:15 -!- _3b` [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:09:05 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 15:10:23 i'm wondering if a prolog that would answer 43 is easier to market? 15:11:51 btw, in ecl: (disassemble '(lambda (a) (1+ a))) shows the c-code in *inferior-lisp* 15:13:09 assuming you're running that in the slime repl, that's nonconforming 15:13:14 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:13:27 (disassemble writes to "standard output" = *standard-output* which is a slime stream under slime) 15:15:15 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 15:15:16 -!- morganb [n=user@76.109.10.14] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:15:51 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:12 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:17:21 levy, attila_lendvai: is the generic openoffice spreadsheet creation button in a table-component supposed to work out of the box or do I have to implement a specific render-ods? 15:17:47 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:18:05 trebor_dki: update your slime? 15:18:14 kami, that is not completely implemented all the way down, just a proof of concept, place holder 15:18:36 kami-, it is not so difficult to do 15:18:40 stassats: i thought i had done a cvs-update this morning ... doing it again ... 15:18:58 one method per component type, with some <> and recursing down 15:19:05 phromo [i=phromo@c-1ec2e455.015-359-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:21:15 *kami-* checks the existing render-ods methods 15:21:47 -!- Jobbesiktningen is now known as Rastbesiktningen 15:22:16 stassats: what is your cvs-revision of slime.el? (mine is cvs-1.1211) 15:22:51 kami, in my current version table and tree widgets are provided 15:23:03 trebor_dki: the same 15:23:27 (list (lisp-implementation-type) (lisp-implementation-version)) => ("ECL" "9.7.1") 15:23:40 illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:55 levy: you mean table-component? 15:24:26 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 15:24:32 slime moans about slime being from 2008-11-02 and swank being from 2009-08-11. 15:24:44 here's your problem 15:24:54 -!- ZabaQ [n=johnc@playboxgames.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:25:20 trebor_dki: sounds like you have an old slime.el somewhere 15:25:33 er, now you got me 15:26:16 kami-, in the new version there was a big renaming to eliminate the confusing names 15:26:42  15:26:48 instead of a-b-c-d-e, we are using names line a-b/c-d/e 15:27:18 sorry 15:27:19 levy: I found the problem. render-ods of table-component calls r-o of row-component and then cell-component 15:27:22 also we distinguish between mixins, layouts, widgets, presentations (that is inspectors, makers, filters, etc.) 15:28:32 -!- ASau [n=user@host118-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["Bye!"] 15:28:40 levy: and there is a popup-command-menu-component in a cell which has a render-cvs, but no render-ods 15:29:04 levy: it's in wui/src/component/command.lisp 15:29:06 dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has joined #lisp 15:29:42 phearle [n=phearle@stjhnf0122w-142162034255.pppoe-dynamic.nl.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:03 kami-, that's why i said is halfway done, you can safely skip rendering anything, i guess 15:30:17 -!- phearle [n=phearle@stjhnf0122w-142162034255.pppoe-dynamic.nl.aliant.net] has left #lisp 15:30:30 kami-, it's just the default component does not have a render-ods to get errors early when i actually do want to render something 15:30:44 instead of silently doing the wrongTM 15:31:18 phearle [n=phearle@stjhnf0122w-142162034255.pppoe-dynamic.nl.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:22 -!- phearle [n=phearle@stjhnf0122w-142162034255.pppoe-dynamic.nl.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:31:57 levy: yes, that's indeed a good idea. 15:32:25 *trebor_dki* needs to reboot emacs (after some weeks (months?)) now, because of updating slime ;) 15:32:46 trebor_dki: that is why i never update slime! 15:33:20 that's why i have a function called reload-slime 15:33:37 reload-slime? 15:33:45 kami-, how much code do you have that depends on wui? 15:33:56 ok, i renamed it to slime-reload recently 15:34:24 what are you doing in there? 15:34:29 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-9-197.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:34:35 well, it reloads slime 15:35:12 just loading slime.el is not enough as i see here 15:35:12 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [] 15:35:17 http://github.com/stassats/emacs-config/blob/b59b6e179327ca43b4da6958b859867dcb16498d/init_lisp.el#L54 15:35:46 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:35:55 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:19 levy: most of what I have is business logic which rather depends on the rest 15:36:41 stassats: swi-prolog is hilarious with that answer :D 15:36:53 danlei [n=user@pD9E2CE9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:02 kami-, that sounds good, so it won't be hard to follow all the renamings and protocol changes 15:37:09 levy: right now, I have just some menus which show tables of pre-selected data 15:37:15 well, factories did not change that much 15:37:51 stassats: thanks. 15:38:21 levy: I'm positive that with your help, I'll manage to follow, somehow 15:38:25 trebor_dki: load-slime is a function defined above just for setting configuration variables 15:38:45 because i'm not sure loading slime doesn't change them again 15:39:07 Yay, emacs 23 in Debian test. 15:39:15 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 15:40:09 kami-, do you use the authorization stuff? 15:40:43 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:43:42 kami- pasted "rendering a LAYER?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85327 15:44:23 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:44:25 kami-` [n=user@95.82.54.20] has joined #lisp 15:44:26 -!- jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 15:44:30 levy: this one is funny. How should I render-ods a layer? :) 15:44:52 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@static-70-108-241-27.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:24 stassats: thanks, i will have to modify it, but this is surely the way to do it 15:45:52 well, i think you should recurse only on components, just like render-xhtml does 15:46:14 one caveat, it doesn't reload hyperspec.el, but it changes very rarely 15:46:52 *trebor_dki* using the ansicl.info files 15:47:02 ciao -heading for sports 15:48:41 levy: re authorization, I don't use it, yet but need it definitely later. Should I wait for the new code base? 15:49:41 kami-, no, there are no changes, i was just wondering. the api will not change the implementation might use the partial-eval lib to make it fast when building the meta gui components 15:49:56 ... change, the ... 15:52:19 i'm leaving to play soccer, see you... 15:52:34 levy: thank you for your help. Have fun. 15:54:10 angerman_ [n=angerman@p57A3B5FB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:54:16 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:54:19 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-12-46.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 15:56:12 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:34 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:58:40 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:59:22 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:59:53 jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:01:04 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 16:01:39 good bye 16:01:45 -!- kami-` [n=user@95.82.54.20] has left #lisp 16:05:45 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:05:51 -!- jd8hh57 [n=mickey@host217-34-51-26.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has left #lisp 16:07:47 weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:08:22 _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:09:16 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:09:19 -!- angerman_ [n=angerman@p57A3B5FB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 16:10:42 -!- angerman [n=angerman@p57A39FC8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:11:37 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:11:45 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 16:13:13 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 16:19:12 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@static-70-108-241-27.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:20:13 -!- logBot1005 [n=logBot@59.92.191.174] has quit [Success] 16:21:44 Good evening. 16:22:09 hi beach 16:25:25 fgtech [n=federico@host100-218-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:31:55 -!- Soulman [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:35:02 fe[nl]ix: How did the exams go? 16:37:51 not too bad 16:39:07 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32C186.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:07 Congratulation! When do we expect you to graduate? 16:43:48 sometime this century 16:43:57 Good to know! 16:44:24 :D 16:44:28 fe[nl]ix: that would have meant more a decade ago :) 16:44:46 hahaha 16:44:58 I remember having a lot of fun with that 16:46:39 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:49:06 _3b` [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:52:44 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:04 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:55:42 -!- swilde [n=wilde@aktaia.intevation.org] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:57:07 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host100-218-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:00:15 Nshag [n=shag@Mix-Orleans-106-4-176.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:01:33 -!- ahaas_ [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #lisp 17:03:27 mrSpec_ [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 17:03:28 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:03:49 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:04:26 -!- mrSpec_ is now known as mrSpec 17:09:09 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:30 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 17:11:06 jhalogen_ [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:13:24 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.183.111] has joined #lisp 17:13:29 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:13:34 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:14:17 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32C186.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:37 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:01 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:22:18 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:29:02 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:29:04 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:46 -!- Pepe___ is now known as Pepe_ 17:30:49 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:31:31 -!- jhalogen_ [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:32:12 angerman [n=angerman@p57A3B5FB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:32:12 clbuild <3 17:32:22 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:32:42 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 17:32:43 weirdo: that's only because you don't know it well enough ;) 17:33:00 what's wrong? 17:33:01 from "sucks" to "<3" in only 6 hours 17:33:20 lichtblau, before the last clbuild update they fixed some repo paths and now it works 17:33:28 previously it didn't download much of libraries' dependencies 17:33:33 so every time i tried it failed 17:33:43 lichtblau: hey ... can i use commonqt to access the webkit stuff? 17:34:05 *drewc* is clueless on the QT/KDE/Smoke front 17:34:50 -!- Ogedei [n=user@e178208170.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:35:03 weirdo: one of the interesting things about #lisp is that the faceless "they" is possibly the person with whom you are actually chatting. 17:36:18 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.183.111] has quit ["Leaving..."] 17:36:21 drewc: you can access Qt's WebKit integration, i.e. QWebView and related classes. Not certain about the underlying classes from the WebKit project. 17:36:27 it could use a comprehensive emacs mode. i hacked up some bits and pieces to display output in the repl, but it's far from perfect 17:36:45 (Recent version of CommonQt needed.) 17:36:52 http://www.lichteblau.com/tmp/hemlock-webkit.png 17:37:32 that's closure? 17:37:40 milanj- [n=milan@93.87.150.252] has joined #lisp 17:37:49 lichtblau: you have a qt hemlock?! 17:38:09 lichtblau: does the QT integration include access to DOM? 17:39:15 -!- milanj- [n=milan@93.87.150.252] has quit [Client Quit] 17:40:06 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:42:44 QT access of DOOM! 17:43:09 s0ber_ [i=pie@118-160-160-126.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:26 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.140.90] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:47:48 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:47:48 drewc: DOM would require changing CommonQt to load the "khtml" smoke library. Could be a one-line change though. Haven't tried it. 17:48:29 lichtblau: ok, thanks! commonqt looks great BTW, glad someone else did the work so i don't have to :) 17:50:59 jhalogen_ [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:51:27 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:51:32 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 17:52:41 weirdo: please send the patch to the mailing list 17:52:51 tcr, ok 17:52:54 thanks for it, but I don't think I'm going to have the time to look at it 17:53:52 p_l: herep 17:54:10 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-172-142.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:56:30 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:57:34 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:58:27 ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:59 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:00:24 dysinger` [n=dysinger@98.246.183.155] has joined #lisp 18:01:17 Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@pppoe-88-147-233-41.san.ru] has joined #lisp 18:02:50 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:04:38 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:06:20 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-aioxgqfbqlyknufs] has joined #lisp 18:07:23 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:09:52 in memory of erik naggum: http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=663393 18:10:52 for a split second after ``Erik joined i thought it was Naggum being here do dispel wild and irresponsible rumors of his death 18:10:53 *sigh* 18:11:16 heh 18:12:51 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:14:22 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 18:15:18 -!- peddie_ is now known as peddie 18:16:06 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-9-197.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:16:45 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:40 ennoausberlin [n=user@tmo-109-232.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 18:19:02 hello 18:19:39 i am doing my first steps with lisp and run into an error with slime 18:19:52 lisppaste: url? 18:19:52 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 18:20:01 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:04 ennoausberlin: paste the error there ^ 18:20:29 its not an error to debug. the system just claims about the encoding 18:20:40 i use sbcl and slime 18:20:58 but it prevents from running code snippets 18:21:12 just a second, i have to change the computer 18:21:20 -!- Rastbesiktningen is now known as Idebesiktningen 18:21:48 change the computer how? into what? 18:22:43 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:22:55 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 18:23:04 ennoausberlin: it's just a baby computer.. still in diapers i guess ;) 18:23:13 banisterfiend [n=little_b@202-89-134-224.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:23:19 err Phaze ^ 18:23:38 i meant i move to another computer :) As you see I am not a native speaker 18:24:04 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:36 -!- jhalogen_ [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:24:40 aha! mystery solved! yet another star on sherlock Holmes' chest 18:24:42 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:52 bah, this is perfectly acceptable germanic english (; 18:25:43 yabul, das ist der good english :) 18:25:59 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-23-51.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:26:04 oh my (: 18:26:12 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-23-51.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:26:28 ennoausberlin: is the encoding error from slime or from lisp? which lisp? 18:27:18 well as i told you these are my first steps 18:27:28 I am using sbcl under ubuntu 18:27:33 drewc: ECLM will take place right at Hamburg's port. I expect you to be there with your cutter. 18:27:54 tcr: it's a ketch! :) 18:27:54 ennoausberlin, paste the error, it might give a hint. 18:28:08 i try to start an example from the ltk library 18:29:25 dont laugh 18:29:31 i cant reproduce 18:30:12 yesterday i got the error. today its fine 18:30:36 then all is good, i guess (: 18:30:43 #lisp wins again! 18:30:50 huzzah 18:30:54 when in doubt cvs up 18:30:55 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:32:52 jollygood [n=jollygoo@66.118.66.90] has joined #lisp 18:33:00 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:02 CrEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 18:33:03 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:34:51 okay. found it 18:35:01 -!- Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@pppoe-88-147-233-41.san.ru] has left #lisp 18:36:24 slime-net-send: Coding system iso-latin-1-unix not suitable for "00015d(:emacs-rex (swank:listener-eval \"(defun hello-1() ... 18:39:24 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:38 ennoausberlin: are you attempting to use utf8 (or something else) encoding in that defun? 18:40:42 ennoausberlin: (setq slime-net-coding-system 'utf-8-unix) into your ~/.emacs 18:41:40 drewc: utf is my standard encoding 18:41:49 tcr: I will try 18:43:02 ennoausberlin: what TCR said will work, assuming you started SBCL in a utf8 locale. 18:44:50 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 18:45:05 drewc: I did 18:46:14 is there a reason, why emacs opens my lisp file in slime mode but does not connect to sbcl automatically? 18:46:24 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:46:51 i have to start slime via alt-x to get the sbcl prompt 18:46:58 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has quit ["brb, reboot"] 18:47:15 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-187-164.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:47:26 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-187-164.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:47:36 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-187-164.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:47:57 ennoausberlin: Because you may just want to quickly look at some file; the start up process takes a while and is noisy. 18:48:13 (setq slime-auto-connect 'always) ? 18:48:39 stassats: you are a hero gentleman 18:48:47 stassats: That should probably become a defcustom. 18:48:49 stassats: thank you 18:48:55 -!- dysinger` [n=dysinger@98.246.183.155] has quit [Success] 18:48:58 stassats: i missed the gentle prompting but didn't realize it could be tweaked back into existence 18:49:11 what do you guys think of Clojure ? 18:50:10 banisterfiend: i liked rich hickey's presentation, he clearly is a lisp nerd from the Common Lisp tradition. 18:50:14 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:50:26 banisterfiend: if i had to work with java stuff, i think i would try it. since i don't, i haven't. 18:50:38 drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:40 i'd try ABCL in that case 18:51:06 Xach, have you got a link to his presentation online? 18:51:26 banisterfiend: it's out there somewhere. i saw it in person. 18:51:36 banisterfiend: the clojure website might have a link. 18:51:51 banisterfiend: there is a really big and active #clojure channel 18:51:53 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:00 guille_ [n=user@8.Red-79-153-137.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:05 hey 18:52:50 Xach: it's cute that the scala and clojure channels are growing at roughly the same rate...a few months ago they were both approx 120 now they're both approx 150 in size 18:53:01 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:53:29 lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:53:30 banisterfiend: I mean, if you want to discuss clojure in more depth, that is a better place. this place is mostly about common lisp. 18:53:37 dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has joined #lisp 18:53:40 oh ok 18:53:55 but does this chan cater for all lisps though? or it's OT to talk about elisp/clojure/scheme in here? 18:54:03 ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:05 banisterfiend: OT 18:54:12 mostly common lisp 18:54:15 ok 18:54:16 raginibanisterfield: Mostly SBCL 18:54:28 #emacs/#clojure/#scheme respectively 18:57:06 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-187-164.netcologne.de] has quit [] 18:58:19 Xach: are you Xach lee? the asian guy? 18:58:36 banisterfiend: No. 18:58:39 Xah Lee 18:58:42 banisterfiend: the asian guy is named Xah 18:58:47 oh ok 18:59:27 hi loading usocket i get a "SOCKET-CONNECT is undefined", how can i solve that? , i'm loading weblocks, and a few minutes ago it works thanks 18:59:29 I saw a reference to Xah Lee the other day at work, about something (can't remember what). Surprising, thought he spont most of his time trolling c.l.l 19:01:09 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-96-75.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:28 -!- CrEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:02:34 weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:04:14 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Client Quit] 19:04:48 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 19:06:07 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 19:06:53 Xach Lee, haha, perhaps an alter ego? Wouldn't be the first time.. :-) 19:07:00 http://slate.com/toolbar.aspx?action=print&id=2224932 19:07:26 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:07:32 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:59 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:08:19 that's why Xach takes breaks from IRC, to write lengthy rants 19:08:41 i was really sad to learn there's an mit scheme hacker named "axch" 19:08:51 our edit distance is too close :( 19:09:21 maybe levenshtein-damerau, levenshtein is 2 19:13:16 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:14:45 guille_` [n=user@8.Red-79-153-137.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:54 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:17:36 -!- ennoausberlin [n=user@tmo-109-232.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:21:56 Xach, well, his name is Alexey, if that helps at all. 19:25:01 CrEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 19:25:14 deepankar_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:24 Riastradh: my real name is Laexey :( 19:26:05 strange name 19:26:19 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-9-70.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 19:29:19 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:29:24 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-218.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:31:43 -!- guille_ [n=user@8.Red-79-153-137.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:31:46 Xach: you could confuse the issue further by uddenly championing scheme 19:32:19 tic: Xah Lee is also big in Mathematica circles 19:32:31 (and is even a bit less troll-y there!) 19:32:39 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 19:33:52 rsynnott, yeah, he keeps talking about Mathematica, but from the picture I have of him from cll, I find it hard to imagine him doing good. :-) 19:34:46 I think he at least sort of knows what he's talking about 19:35:36 (his website is worth a look for net-loon enthusiasts; he's the Archimedes Plutonium of the 21st century!) 19:35:50 (though do not under any circumstances look at his personal pictures) 19:38:19 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-23-51.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:39:27 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-12-46.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 19:41:59 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:44:26 rsynnott: i can't find them, link? 19:47:01 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:49:21 no, seriously, you do not want to 19:49:30 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 19:50:29 i'm curious why i don't want to 19:52:34 -!- phromo [i=phromo@c-1ec2e455.015-359-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )"] 19:52:38 nakedness 19:52:58 nakedness?! has anyone called the internet authorities yet? 19:54:59 *stassats* almost fainted from the word alone 19:56:12 -!- CrEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:56:37 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32C186.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:44 *tmh* calls them frequently. 19:58:14 I search and search and search the internet constantly for nakedness, to report them, of course. 19:58:51 heheh 19:59:06 CrEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 20:00:10 tmh: you can search for children nakedness and you won't have to call anymore 20:00:45 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:01:48 -!- sad0ur_ is now known as sad0ur 20:01:58 stassats: There was a line, *see* -> | , you should be here -> stassats | not here. But instead, you went here -> should be here | stassats 20:01:59 I wonder if it's possible for someone who says that one of his favorite languages (about 10 years ago) was lisp, but couldn't name the type of lisp used. 20:02:54 Think 10 years back is to soon. 20:02:56 too soon. 20:03:14 tic: too soon? 20:03:24 TDT: What would be impossible about that? 20:03:28 TDT, yeah. was there really much diversity 1997? 20:03:37 1997? 20:03:37 eh, 1999. 20:03:39 *tic* can't count 20:03:50 the same as now except for clojure, no? 20:04:09 and arc 20:04:25 tmh: Well, 10 years ago I could say I was using a pascal based language (delphi) and what I was developing at that time, and I have a horrible memory. 20:04:40 emacs lisp 20:05:02 I still don't understand why you can't call scheme lisp. 20:05:37 oh, dear, religious issues 20:06:00 *stassats* favorite language 10 years ago was German, of Hoch Deutsch type 20:11:49 Catalan_37 [n=Catalan_@95.214.92.74] has joined #lisp 20:17:02 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-108-3.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:17:39 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-109-209.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 20:22:39 Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@pppoe-88-147-233-41.san.ru] has joined #lisp 20:25:16 paxcoder [n=paxcoder@unaffiliated/paxcoder] has joined #lisp 20:26:04 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:26:44 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:17 -!- Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@pppoe-88-147-233-41.san.ru] has left #lisp 20:28:52 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 20:28:56 kehoea [n=aidan@daedalus.ipv4.asclepian.ie] has joined #lisp 20:29:00 hi! 20:29:25 I have this form: 20:29:29 (--values-store--77973 (multiple-value-list-internal 0 2)) 20:29:44 that's a pretty weird form. 20:30:02 not if you're writing Emacs Lisp macros, it isn't 20:30:04 anyway 20:30:10 is --values-store-77973 a macro? 20:30:18 I'd like to find the last cdr of the (multiple-value-list-internal 0 2) list 20:30:27 but in a generalizable way 20:30:35 such that if the list is actually 20:30:52 #emacs? 20:30:53 (multiple-value-list-internal 0 2 (other-list (other-list-again))) 20:31:21 it'll hand me the last cdr of the (other-list-again ...) list 20:31:46 no, this is a general Lisp question, and I'm an XEmacs developer, we're happy to use the Common Lisp functions 20:31:58 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-4-118.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:32:04 clhs multiple-value-list-internal 20:32:05 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for multiple-value-list-internal. 20:32:05 clhs last 20:32:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_last.htm 20:32:10 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:49 (also, I beg your pardon, s-expression is a better term than form here) 20:32:51 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B169C22.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:34:28 (last '(--values-store--77973 (multiple-value-list-internal 0 2 (other-list (other-list-again))))) 20:34:28 => ((multiple-value-list-internal 0 2 (other-list (other-list-again)))) 20:34:32 lrenn [n=lrenn@pool-173-75-248-87.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:32 nope, that's not it 20:34:34 so, you want not last cdr of a list 20:34:56 does anyone know around what year Common Lisp got :around, :before, :after qaulifiers? Was that from the beginning? 20:35:22 CLOS wasn't in Common Lisp from the beginning 20:35:49 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6E477.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:00 I suppose I want to call the function recursively on the last element, until I get a non-cons 20:36:02 let's see 20:36:16 stassats: thanks, i'll look around. 20:37:23 I guess it depends on what lrenn means by "Common Lisp" ... whether to include all the effort previous to the standard being approved. 20:37:54 CLOS is a part of the CL standard. 20:37:54 OK, bad form there 20:38:10 CLOS is part of ANSI CL 20:38:22 CL was before ANSI 20:38:44 my real goal is to determine how many years ahead CL was with aspect oriented programming :) 20:39:54 jdijk [i=jdijk@ftth-212-84-159-210.solcon.nl] has joined #lisp 20:39:54 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavors_(programming_language) says it has :before and :after 20:41:41 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 20:43:18 facinating. I had never heard of Flavors. Good stuff. Thanks again. 20:43:22 milanj [n=milan@93.87.150.252] has joined #lisp 20:44:10 ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/pdf/AIM-602.pdf from 1980 has :after and :before 20:44:49 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:45:30 guille_ [n=user@8.Red-79-153-137.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:51 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:47:51 lichtblau, clpython changed its repo to git://github.com/franzinc/cl-python.git 20:48:40 lichtblau, please register an email for the darcs repo so that i could use "darcs send" 20:48:48 -!- CrEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:49:38 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:49:42 -!- vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:50:09 -!- jdijk [i=jdijk@ftth-212-84-159-210.solcon.nl] has quit ["(and has gone back to work...)"] 20:50:23 -!- Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:50:59 lrenn: note, Gregor Kiczales, who known for doing something with AOP, was involved in designing CLOS and its metaobject protocl 20:53:26 lrenn: check out contextl ... lisp is light years ahead of AOP 20:53:51 antoni [n=user@46.Red-79-152-211.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:21 -!- antoni [n=user@46.Red-79-152-211.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:58:09 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:59:27 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 21:00:37 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:00:51 Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:38 -!- paxcoder [n=paxcoder@unaffiliated/paxcoder] has quit [] 21:02:02 paxcoder [n=paxcoder@unaffiliated/paxcoder] has joined #lisp 21:02:43 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:04:54 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:04:56 vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 21:06:36 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@66.118.66.90] has quit [] 21:07:39 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:34 -!- deepankar_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:11:03 amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 21:16:00 -!- kehoea [n=aidan@daedalus.ipv4.asclepian.ie] has left #lisp 21:17:12 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-72-38.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:19:32 how does one check the type of given expression in given lexical environment in sbcl? 21:19:33 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:20:04 i know about %fun-type, but it requires a compiled lambda and COMPILE doesn't work with lexenvs 21:21:37 TYPE-OF? 21:24:18 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B0BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:31 stassats, no, type inference 21:24:36 at compile time 21:24:49 Typically, you use a transform, which can ask the node for its type. 21:25:09 so, type of a variable? 21:25:10 (Do I mean node? I might mean node. I'm not -that- familiar with that part of the compiler.) 21:25:32 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2CB4D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:57 one day i swear i'm going to do generic sequences 21:26:09 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:26:09 -!- dmiles [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:26:32 what do they do? 21:26:34 is it also possible to fool TYPEP that my sequence is a subtype of STRING, for instance? 21:27:01 you mean subtypep? 21:27:08 both of them 21:27:27 stassats, generic sequences allow one to create new sequence types 21:27:36 so that MAPCAR and friends work on them 21:28:20 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:23 weirdo: http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/papers/ "User-Extensible Sequences in Common Lisp"? 21:28:38 it should be pretty simple to implement if an existing sequence type is a slot inside a an object 21:29:20 z [n=Catalan_@95.214.95.9] has joined #lisp 21:29:24 stassats, i know about it, but it needs transforms to be fast 21:29:35 -!- z is now known as Guest45228 21:30:14 i just found out about puri. oh my, and i've been doing all that manually 21:30:18 and there's MERGE-URIS 21:30:30 puri is not without problems 21:30:44 *Xach* does not like how it declares all strings as simple-strings for starters 21:31:12 iirc, it also has high speed and low safety, so if you (in your naïve state) try to pass a displaced string for an url, you can trash your system. 21:31:13 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 21:31:27 and it even has a pretty printing method so it prints as #<> in the REPL but as a string in format "~A" 21:31:34 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:32:01 well one could run sed -i'' -e ... on the directory tree 21:32:10 (why is it called a directory *tree*? it's a graph) 21:32:29 i mean, replace all optimization stuff 21:32:38 well, given your advice, i'll do it myself and send a patch 21:33:32 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [] 21:33:36 hmm the git version has strings 21:33:39 and not simple-strings 21:33:53 thank *DEITY* for clbuild 21:33:55 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:34:34 weirdo: ok, i'm glad to hear it. 21:35:03 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:35 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:38:50 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:39:04 weirdo: if you are using SBCL, you've got user extensible sequences available to you in SB-SEQUENCE 21:39:15 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has joined #lisp 21:39:53 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:40:14 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:41:30 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2CE9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:44:07 gigamonkey [n=user@75.16.27.70] has joined #lisp 21:45:06 drewc, yeah, but i'd rather not ask users of my libraries to depend upon sbcl 21:45:27 so it has to be implemented from scratch :( the code from the paper probably bitrotted already 21:46:30 where's sb-sequence? can't find it in contribs 21:47:04 -!- Catalan_37 [n=Catalan_@95.214.92.74] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:47:15 -!- Guest45228 [n=Catalan_@95.214.95.9] has quit [Client Quit] 21:47:19 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6E477.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 21:47:34 Guest45228 [n=Catalan_@95.214.95.9] has joined #lisp 21:48:04 -!- Guest45228 [n=Catalan_@95.214.95.9] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:48:20 Catalan_37 [n=Catalan_@95.214.95.9] has joined #lisp 21:48:21 CrEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 21:50:13 aminorex [n=aminorex@24-179-163-72.dhcp.dlth.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:50:22 just sequence, not in contribs 21:51:07 thank you 21:51:34 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-69-232-218-180.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:43 weirdo: you would not be asking them to depend on SBCL, just extensible sequences. all of the implementations that support extensible sequences could use the library. 21:53:02 kmels_ [n=kmels@190.148.137.224] has joined #lisp 21:53:34 you just need to lobby other implementations 21:54:57 does sb-sequence work with code like (etypecase foo (list ...) (vector ...))? 21:55:06 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:57:27 -!- cp2_ [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:57:51 aminorex1 [n=aminorex@24-179-163-72.dhcp.dlth.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:01:08 jollygood [n=jollygoo@66.118.66.90] has joined #lisp 22:02:24 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Success] 22:02:32 http://rosettacode.org/mw/index.php?title=Arithmetic_Evaluator&diff=60245&oldid=prev#ast_standard_library_module 22:03:41 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-9-197.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:03:58 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 22:07:30 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-84-204.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 22:08:01 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-206-08.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:09:46 -!- Catalan_37 [n=Catalan_@95.214.95.9] has quit [Client Quit] 22:10:28 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:12:45 sbcl devs, where are per-thread specials implemented? i thought about GC-ing identifiers when gensyms die 22:13:08 -!- angerman [n=angerman@p57A3B5FB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 22:13:13 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:13:37 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:13:46 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 22:14:14 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 22:14:20 weirdo: Thread-local bindings? They're a bit spread about. 22:14:23 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:14:25 -!- aminorex [n=aminorex@24-179-163-72.dhcp.dlth.mn.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:15:36 There's a slot in the symbol structure in compiler/generic/objdef, there's a pile of access stuff in compiler/target/cell, there's the specification of the TLS area size in... wherever it is, possibly runtime/thread.c... 22:15:40 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-9-197.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:15:42 nyef, i need the place when a new identifier is interned to make it handle empty spaces in the vector 22:15:58 So... the actual TLS slot allocation? 22:16:02 yes 22:16:34 It originally was in compiler/target/cell, but ISTR it being moved to somewhere under assembly/target/ at some point. 22:16:56 bummer, assembly 22:17:23 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-12-46.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 22:17:54 Well, what did you expect? 22:18:23 hmm so i'll add finalizers, i just hope finalizers don't use special bindings and happen to intern a new index the time it's time to GC them 22:18:38 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:18:39 i thought SB-C was efficient enough to do that *g* 22:18:42 It has to happen while performing dynamic binding, which is a massively low-level operation anyway. 22:18:43 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 22:19:48 (format nil "ALLOC-TLS-INDEX-IN-~A" reg) 22:20:04 Finalizers for TLS slots...? But it's a linear allocation scheme with a single global index. 22:20:11 i guess this is it, assembly/x86-64/alloc 22:20:19 nyef, finalizers for symbols 22:20:31 Ah. 22:20:35 at least it's sexp-asm 22:21:08 ... What are you going to do about the globaldb, though? 22:23:21 -!- danlei` [n=user@pD9E2CB4D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:23:46 -!- kmels_ is now known as kmels 22:26:09 what's the globaldb? 22:26:50 It's sortof part of the compiler. Contains information on every defined variable, function, macro, type, etc. 22:27:17 so symbols won't get finalized because they're in the globaldb? 22:27:31 Symbols in the globaldb certainly won't. 22:28:01 Of course, if you're only hoping to nail uninterned symbols, that's more likely to happen. 22:29:03 well i only need to do that for the common case of PROGV some-newly-generated-gensyms 22:29:54 Right. 22:30:00 can i hotpatch the tls-internator-thigie? 22:30:02 Or for general symbol garbage. I expect that gensyms introduced during macroexpansion may well not end up being retained in many cases. 22:30:10 -!- booo [n=user@dsl-hkibrasgw3-ff2dc000-174.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:30:35 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.150.252] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:30:53 I don't see why not, it's not like read-only-space is write-protected. 22:31:10 Just generate your new code, wedge it into static space like happens with callbacks, and overwrite the start of the routines you want to patch with a JMP. 22:31:24 -!- jao [n=jao@127.Red-213-98-196.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:31:24 :o 22:31:28 well i don't know asm 22:31:39 you're scaring me 22:31:46 Why do you need to patch it, anyway? 22:31:58 i don't 22:32:27 you mean if i need to hotpatch it or why do am i fixing it? 22:32:38 s/ do // 22:32:48 What needs fixing about it? 22:33:12 it would be nice having the possibility to PROGV like there's no tomorrow 22:33:12 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:33:34 -!- guille_` [n=user@8.Red-79-153-137.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:33:34 -!- guille_ [n=user@8.Red-79-153-137.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:33:44 So... You need to trigger a GC if it runs out, and have the GC compact the allocated TLS indices? 22:33:47 i considered doing it in one of my systems until i found about SBCL's TLS indexes 22:33:53 yes 22:34:29 and i need the allocator to know how to handle empty spaces in the index vector 22:35:04 Not for a compacting collector, then you just reset the freespace pointer and there are no gaps. 22:35:46 what's a compacting collector and is it used on amd64 by default? 22:35:57 well, you don't need to tell me what it is 22:36:16 By default, there -is- no collector for TLS indices. 22:39:16 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:40:19 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 22:40:38 I guess if you're just going to finalize symbols and use the finalizers to release the TLS index then a different allocation scheme makes sense. 22:41:21 Either way, of course, you have the risk of running out of TLS indices over time. 22:41:38 Your other option is to use a non-threaded SBCL, where the problem simply doesn't exist. 22:43:33 so many percent signs. where are opcodes defined? meta-point ended me up in defstruct segment and that's probably not it 22:43:52 compiler/target/insts 22:44:07 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [] 22:45:44 coderdad_ [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 22:46:19 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-84-204.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #lisp 22:47:20 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:47:39 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.122.5] has joined #lisp 22:47:48 -!- paxcoder [n=paxcoder@unaffiliated/paxcoder] has left #lisp 22:50:14 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.137.224] has left #lisp 22:51:23 -!- coderdad_ [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:52:05 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 22:52:10 so it's sb-assem:*assem-instructions*. now i need some time to learn enough about asm to write the code :) 22:52:19 bbl 22:56:01 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:59:08 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:04:27 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.122.5] has quit [] 23:07:12 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 23:09:17 Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:28 -!- bgs100 is now known as Bgs100454 23:09:37 -!- Bgs100454 is now known as Bgs454 23:12:11 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@75.16.27.70] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:12:14 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 23:12:45 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-96-75.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:15:19 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B0BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:17:46 -!- lukjad007 is now known as lukjad454 23:22:10 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:22:38 -!- Idebesiktningen is now known as Soemnbesiktigar 23:23:54 -!- lukjad454 is now known as lukjad007 23:26:31 -!- |Trickster| [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:29:36 mersel [n=merit@unaffiliated/romani] has joined #lisp 23:29:49 -!- mersel [n=merit@unaffiliated/romani] has left #lisp 23:30:13 -!- Bgs454 is now known as bgs100 23:31:36 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 23:31:41 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 23:43:45 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:46:00 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.30] has joined #lisp 23:47:45 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:10 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-69-232-218-180.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:52:45 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:11 xristos pasted "read-byte" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85352 23:54:29 am i missing something here ? why the warning 23:56:42 no warning here 23:56:43 note i mean 23:56:58 no note either 23:57:12 (lisp-implementation-version) => "1.0.30.46" 23:57:18 ok 23:58:49 i don't get a note either... 23:59:25 i'm on .29 23:59:32 jsnell once told me that notes like that are caused when sbcl's heuristics for when to show and when to hide notes break down 23:59:58 sbcl tries not to show unreachable code warnings for macro-generated code...i'm getting the details wrong, i'm afraid