00:00:26 (at least it does here) 00:00:41 pjb: are you aware of this amazingly elegent Mccarthy paper..."Micro-Manual for Lisp : Not the Whole Truth" ? 00:00:42 Yes, I get sone first position in google :-) 00:01:01 seb-: not yet. I'll have to read it. 00:01:16 pjb: he sort of cleaned up his core lisp in that paper..so i like it better than the original now 00:01:33 With more time I'd read all the AIM, etc... 00:03:52 pjb: oh hey thanks..been wanting to read AIM 453 00:04:01 seb-: the lambda papers are a good read if you want to understand static scope, lexical closures, etc etc 00:04:53 pjb: as a user a like lexical scope....as a vigilante toy lisp implementer it is a pain :) 00:05:02 s/a like/i like 00:05:08 -!- kmels-away is now known as kmels 00:05:47 seb-: not really. It's funny to play with environments. 00:05:59 seb-: well as long as there are not too many, like in CL :-) 00:06:14 drewc: excellent idea 00:06:20 pjb: i was able to avoid dealing with environments so far w/ my search-and-replaces :) 00:06:45 pjb: but i must do silly things like make sure all my variables have unique names since no scope protection 00:07:35 search-and-replaces, you can implement it properly. Check beta-reduction and lambda calculus. 00:08:06 pjb: yup...i implemented my own lambda calculus before this project :) 00:08:09 pjb: know it well 00:08:14 ok. 00:08:23 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:09:08 pjb: to use lambda calc jargon...i guess i need to do "alpha conversions" to avoid variable name clashes 00:09:19 Yes. 00:11:06 Good night! 00:12:06 pjb: gn..thanks for all the help 00:12:17 -!- seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 00:17:52 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has quit [] 00:25:28 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-19-168.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:29:53 drewc: heh, turns out I need NIST RBAC for HIPAA compliance anyway. 00:40:36 dto: hello 00:40:53 -!- Demosthenex [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 00:48:59 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 00:49:23 vbox magic: http://donlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/08/11/one-three-three-t/ 00:49:50 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:55 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-160-162-250.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:53:03 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-172-142.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:05 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-d9e981e7dca0b4ec] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:58:19 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:03:32 BrianRice [n=water@c-71-59-210-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:41 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:09:16 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:35 crod [n=cmell@KD124213182069.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:12:56 oh i see. 01:13:07 wrong channel. 01:19:29 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 01:20:55 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:00 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:22:15 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:23:24 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:26:11 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:48 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:34:38 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-205-43.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:35:48 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:36:07 jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:36:17 clhs program-error 01:36:17 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/e_progra.htm 01:36:26 gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 01:40:32 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:42:24 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has 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-!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:11:19 gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 02:13:07 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-118.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 02:15:36 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:17:49 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@72.11.81.253] has joined #lisp 02:17:58 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-119.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 02:19:47 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 02:21:34 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:21:46 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:29 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-119.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 02:29:11 -!- Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:31:52 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:50 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-245.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 02:34:26 kosh` [n=user@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:35:48 minion: memo for fusss --- Howie Shrobe had a paper at the last ILC about using CLOS to implement access controls in a system. If you're interested, I could probably give you a pointer. 02:35:48 and if not? 02:35:50 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 02:36:08 minion: memo for fusss --- Howie Shrobe had a paper at the last ILC about using CLOS to implement access controls in a system. 02:36:08 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 02:36:13 rpg: hey! 02:36:25 cheers! will google that now 02:37:13 fusss: Unfortunately, I don't believe the ILC 2009 proceedings are available on line. I must go now, but if you ask me tomorrow, I'll try to put you in touch with Howie (unless you can just get the paper from his web page). 02:37:17 goodnight! 02:37:31 rpg: thanks a million 02:37:36 no worries 02:39:59 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:42:39 Hm, is there a way to convert a sequence of 4 bytes to a long (basically, concatenate them)? 02:42:57 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:26 herbieB: a "long"? 02:44:00 herbieB: but sure, many ways. (logior (ash (aref seq 0) 24) (ash (aref seq 1) 16) ...) 02:44:00 herbieB: shift the bytes with ASH. 02:44:08 herbieB: if you know what "long" means in your platform, ash and logand 02:44:12 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:44:20 Xach did it better :-P 02:44:21 or 3 2 1 0 if that's the right way 02:44:23 -!- kosh` [n=user@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:44:33 Ah, ok. 02:44:33 kosh` [n=user@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:44:40 kosh`` [n=user@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:44:44 Thanks :) 02:45:04 also LDB and BYTE functions 02:45:42 -!- kosh` [n=user@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:45:42 CL bit manipulation is utter fun 02:45:59 -!- kosh`` [n=user@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:46:13 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:47:43 can't wait to see a stand-up comedian telling jokes about ash and ldb 02:48:38 it took me 2 hours to crack the security pin generation algorithm in a popular phone card in the U.S. 02:48:59 i collected the used cards from outside 7/11 and some I bought 02:49:41 someone pasted "laugh all you want :-)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85173 02:53:01 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:53:40 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-f50c48d2a0ae6945] has joined #lisp 02:54:22 kosh` [n=user@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:54:43 girzel [n=user@61.51.238.250] has joined #lisp 02:56:39 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-141-57.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:57:36 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@adsl-68-89-190-176.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:58:37 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.180.89] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:59:28 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-70-156.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:59:45 kmels_ [n=kmels@190.148.180.89] has joined #lisp 03:07:09 brandelune [n=suzume@pl834.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:10:39 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 03:10:44 Greetings. 03:12:34 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@72.11.81.253] has quit [] 03:20:33 solid article on security implementation for web services: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/rational/library/4860.html 03:22:39 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 03:24:05 Is there anywhere online that I can get a large collection of plain-text legalese? 03:26:50 -!- kmels_ is now known as kmels 03:30:48 -!- kosh` [n=user@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:31:31 Isn't plaintext legalese somewhat of an oxymoron? 03:31:58 Hah. A little bit. 03:32:32 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:32:56 A bunch of .txt or even .doc (i could convert those) files. 03:33:06 forms and contracts and such 03:35:27 I'd think the main thing you're likely to dig off the net are licenses. 03:35:38 ah, EULA's 03:36:04 Yep. 03:37:14 meg04815 [n=meg0@59.92.204.7] has joined #lisp 03:39:36 ramenboy [n=user@ip98-165-129-233.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:11 -!- meg04815 [n=meg0@59.92.204.7] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:40:25 meg00637 [n=meg0@59.92.204.7] has joined #lisp 03:40:41 jlf` [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-82.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:40:56 -!- Eleanore [n=a@c-4526e555.035-34-73746f10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["leaving"] 03:40:57 mogunus`: I would hit up groklaw 03:41:22 mogunus`: They get them in pdf form and she converts them all to text, and they keep a very thorough backlog 03:41:22 -!- meg00637 [n=meg0@59.92.204.7] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:41:36 meg09263 [n=meg0@59.92.204.7] has joined #lisp 03:43:15 herbieB: oh, this is excellent! 03:43:16 mogunus`: training an AI? ;-) 03:43:16 thanks 03:43:19 yep! 03:43:59 Coders at Work surpassed PCL's best-ever Amazon Sales Rank today. 03:44:08 *gigamonkey* is excited. 03:44:25 I'm going to generate a bunch of legal mumbo-jumbo using a markov model 03:44:45 gigamonkey: congrats! I am glad it is out. I will probably order it now. 03:45:09 mogunus`: so it's not actually out yet. But don't let that stop you from ordering. (It goes to press a week from today.) 03:45:11 I will put said mumbo-jumbo into a filing cabinet at random and use it to confuse the players in my role playing game. 03:45:25 -!- meg09263 [n=meg0@59.92.204.7] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:45:40 meg05871 [n=meg0@59.92.204.7] has joined #lisp 03:47:07 gigamonkey: great idea, nice lineup 03:48:18 ever read "programmers at work"? 03:52:40 -!- meg05871 [n=meg0@59.92.204.7] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:53:23 coders at work on amazon? 03:54:48 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:53 gigamonkey: I'm looking through PCL to get an idea of whether I should capitalize symbol names in text or not. Is your convention to capitalize symbol names for common lisp symbols and lowercase otherwise? 03:56:59 ramenboy: I have. 03:57:14 lowercase them in your code 03:57:15 I actually read it a long time ago. And then I re-read it when I started work on Coders. 03:57:19 chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-73-92-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:26 tmh: not in code. 03:57:35 Then, /me notices the section on typographical conventions 03:57:45 I upper-case them in prose just to make them stand out. 03:57:46 gigamonkey: interesting to read again after a lot of time goes by 03:57:55 although if you are interning a string uppercase ftw... 03:58:18 gigamonkey: I imagine your book will have that sort of historical significance as well 03:58:27 I can only hope so. 03:59:14 gigamonkey: I think I'll follow that convention. I have been capitalizing all symbol names in prose, but noticed that that wasn't always done. I like capitalizing standard names and lowercase otherwise. 03:59:26 *always done elsewhere* 03:59:43 I'm not sure I'm 100% consistent. 03:59:54 what is 'prose' you all speak of 03:59:59 you mean docstrings? 04:00:07 or comments? 04:00:34 JAS415: No, I mean external documentation. Tutorials, user guides, developer guides, etc. 04:00:42 ahhh 04:00:42 From the capsule reviews, it looks like the book has a preponderance of lispers. ;-) 04:01:14 caoliver: you mean the subjects? Not really. 04:01:14 JAS415: Actually, I've also been trying to arrive on a convention for docstrings and may just follow my external convention. 04:01:48 Or at least they're ballanced by the anti-Lispers. (e.g. Thompson, Bloch) 04:02:00 i tend to put them in single quotes when referring to them outside of code 04:02:00 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:12 BTW: does anyone know if Snoracle is continuing Steele's Fortress work? 04:03:48 i think specials i capitalize 04:04:09 although not in the code itself 04:04:21 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:05:45 *tmh* curses caoliver for bringing up Fortress, creating a diversion from actual work. 04:06:07 I look that up about once a year to see if anything has changed and to remind myself why I don't use it. 04:06:44 my only problem with fortress is I have no eye for math syntax 04:06:51 All hail Wikipedia, "A JVM compliant implementation (Fortress 1.0) was released in April 2008." 04:07:44 wow amazon sells everything now 04:07:49 i thought they were just books 04:08:14 Well, it is the worlds largest rain forest. 04:08:39 yeah its amazing that a rain forest can have such an impressive website 04:08:50 how do they ship this stuff? 04:08:51 JAS415: geesh, you must not have looked at it in about five or six years. 04:09:05 pretty much :-) 04:09:52 i don't buy a lot of stuff 04:10:16 *tmh* wastes more time reading about Fortress. 04:11:01 Glad to be of service. ;-) 04:11:18 'i'd like these tires delivered to my kindle, please' 04:12:52 *tmh* ponders downloading Fortress 04:14:22 downloading new languages is a time honored procrastination device 04:14:43 i mean, I'm evaluating it, right? I might use it on my next project... 04:16:40 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-204-214.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:17:39 JAS415: I think I'm going to move along. I hadn't checked it out in a while and assumed it was dead, but it actually appears to be making some progress. But there's not enough there for me to seriously consider devoting time to learning it and using it on a project. I'll keep lurking. 04:18:56 :-) 04:19:21 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-219-223.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:12 JAS415: It looks like a very appealing language for university research, but I'm not sure it would work well for production code. 04:21:52 I agree its very aesthetically pleasing 04:24:07 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-73-92-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:24:08 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 04:25:26 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-204-214.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:39 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["bed"] 04:40:31 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:27 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:49:33 _stern_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E479E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:13 kosh` [n=user@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:50:26 risent [n=qi@119.117.97.142] has joined #lisp 04:51:45 -!- loxs [n=loxs@82.119.85.174] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:52:34 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-204-214.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:55:19 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:56:33 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E4714A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:58:34 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-127-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:03:09 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:03:47 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:48 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:06:03 ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:32 morganb [n=user@76.109.10.14] has joined #lisp 05:07:40 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.180.89] has left #lisp 05:08:12 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:41 -!- Soemnbesiktigar is now known as Jobbesiktningen 05:13:09 Rajin_ [n=Rajin@d040228.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 05:14:00 -!- Rajin_ [n=Rajin@d040228.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:14:12 Rajin_ [n=Rajin@d040228.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 05:14:29 -!- Rajin_ [n=Rajin@d040228.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 05:16:20 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 05:16:28 -!- risent [n=qi@119.117.97.142] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:19:02 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:19:13 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:09 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-141-57.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:27:40 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslgm140.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:31:05 -!- jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 05:32:18 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 05:32:52 hello 05:39:11 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 05:39:24 -!- blandest [n=user@79.112.97.100] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:42:01 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 05:46:06 -!- kosh` [n=user@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:46:47 well, RBAC turns out fairly easier than I thought 05:47:03 *fusss* resist the temptation to confuse RBAC with ACLs 05:54:36 *tmh* runs away in horror 05:58:23 jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:00:52 -!- jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 06:01:31 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:02:06 larry [n=shrek@88.131.67.194] has joined #lisp 06:02:32 -!- larry [n=shrek@88.131.67.194] has quit [Client Quit] 06:02:46 lharc [n=shrek@88.131.67.194] has joined #lisp 06:02:46 OT: much corporate application development crap by looking at the sample database templates in Open Office 06:03:09 there is everything from inventory management, to task management to groupware to messaging 06:04:24 Will any of that every be used? Will they be able to maintain all of that functionality so that people will want/learn to use it? 06:04:57 not sure if they're gonna use it, but they paid us to write it :-P 06:06:44 if you can't be bothered to do requirement analysis for a database (assuming you even know what that is, I don't ;-) then the samples are quick way to learn how things are done in the Real World. 06:06:54 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:37 Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #lisp 06:07:41 It would be great if corporations actually used those features, but when I was inhabiting a cube, if I tried anything remotely related to automation in a Word document, using fields or macros, the tech pubs people were like "Woah! That's way to complicated for us to support." 06:07:49 sooner or later we all have to do that, I am afraid :-( 06:08:48 I am not recommending you deploye and MS Access or OO Base "app"; just rip their schemas for your memcached, open source rdbms of choice :-P 06:16:57 Good morning. 06:17:51 stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:57 morning beach 06:25:04 mogunus pasted "loses my REPL" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85178 06:25:50 After I run this code, I get the input that I'm looking for (all space seperated token in the file, printed out) but I lose my REPL prompt, and can no longer enter things in *slime-repl sbcl* 06:26:04 *inferior-lisp* is fine 06:26:18 and if I run M-x slime again, it gets me the repl back 06:29:06 ASau [n=user@host23-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 06:30:52 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:31:53 mogunus`: does the file contain non-ascii characters? 06:32:05 nevermind, I wasn't checking for #\Newline, that screwed it up. and no, I don't think so. 06:32:05 Good morning 06:32:26 I'll want to run this on utf-8 data though. what should I do to make it work for that? 06:33:06 mogunus`: I forger, but there is something you have to set in SLIME sometimes to make that work. 06:33:28 Does anyone know of any datastore/persistance option for CL that is a pure lisp solution and is not limited by main memory? 06:33:40 mogunus`: Though, why do you use eq and equalp on characters and nil? You should use eql on characters, and (null x) to test for nil. 06:33:48 And is available and works...those are important ones too :-) 06:34:40 mogunus`: also, use '() rather than nil to initialize an empty list. 06:34:45 Is the elephant native backend being worked on for instance? 06:34:49 eq seems to work on the characters. why is eql preferred? (switching over now) 06:34:58 mogunus`: And instead of manually doing push and nreverse, you can use collect. 06:35:59 beach: thank you for the style fixes... that's much cleaner 06:36:50 ah...checked clhs. (eq) for chars working is implementation dependant. 06:36:54 ugh. thanks. 06:37:02 No problem. 06:41:02 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 06:42:30 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:43:02 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 06:44:12 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:45:36 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:46:04 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl834.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 06:47:50 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslgm140.osnanet.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 06:48:55 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1DDD.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:49:56 -!- daniel [n=daniel@p5082D32E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:49:59 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 06:53:08 stipet: hoho, yes 06:53:39 stipet: i tried them all in "the real world" 06:54:18 stipet: AllegroCache is the most high-end, $ though 06:54:26 Rucksack is the low end 06:54:59 CLSQL and Postmodern will serialize and deserialize transparently, but an RDBMs backend 06:55:37 Redis is not Lisp, but you can write commands to it over a socket, and is the most killer object store i have ever seen 06:55:51 not really an object store, but k/v db on steroids 06:56:01 15k updates / s 06:56:19 close to 30k reads /s 06:56:20 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 06:56:55 instant and trivial db master replication (uncomment one line) 07:00:54 correction, make that 50k updates and 80k reads per second 07:01:44 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:02:23 fusss: Redis seems impressive, didnt know about that one...but being a key/val store it's pretty far from what I really want...reliable persistance clos 07:02:55 I really like cl-store but being limited by main memory is a problem. 07:03:36 stipet: Postmodern is your best bet, Postgres is nothing to scoff at. or you can use CLSQL and read my whining history in his chan and not make any of my mistakes 07:03:57 brb 07:04:03 -!- seisatsu_ [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:04:18 btw, i will repeat an advice i give to people often; wrap your DB library's API ASAP 07:04:36 do all database updates and reads through accessors 07:04:38 fusss: Yeah I have a good idea of postmodern...still I can't help but feeling that for some applications a DB or ORM solution is not the right way 07:04:39 -!- bulibuta [n=bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has quit ["leaving"] 07:05:13 fusss: For when it changes? :-) 07:05:23 write FIND-OBJECT and treat it non-null result as any other CLOS object. 07:05:36 yes, database will change :-) 07:05:52 that I am certain of. save yourself and abstract away db access into a clean little API 07:06:39 FIND-OBJECT, FIND-OBJECT-BY, LIST-ALL-OBJECTS, LIST-OBJECTS-BY, UPDATE-OBJECT and UPDATE-OBJECT-WHERE should be enough 07:06:58 Redis page says 110K writes and 81K reads between 07:07:05 That is impressive 07:07:38 those take a class name, some take an object ID, and there -WHERE and -BY classes take a class, a slot name and a slot value, a la SQL's WHERE clause. take care to make this a key or create an index for that table by the slot. 07:07:45 Someone should build something comprehensive for storing lisp data in it transparently 07:07:52 I benchmarked on a $20 VPS with 256ram 07:08:15 stipet: there is also TokyoCabinet, and there is always that special "someone" to write the code and docs. 07:08:31 implement the minimum you need now and move along, life's too short :-P 07:08:32 brb 07:10:18 fusss: That is true. For my current project I figured in-memory would be enough and I still think so. So I went with cl-store and timer event to serialize now and then to disk. The flexibility of then just using in-memory objects is really a great boost to productivity. 07:12:38 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-4ae470d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:14:59 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-20-213.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:16:28 Is there a good, standardizes cl library with some sort of balanced tree data structure? 07:19:09 prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 07:20:37 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-112-69.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:22:02 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-16-10.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:22:06 -!- beach` is now known as beach 07:22:30 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 07:23:41 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-4ae470d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:24:23 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:24:46 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has joined #lisp 07:27:46 -!- ^authent1c is now known as authentic 07:28:24 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit ["leaving"] 07:28:40 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-38-170.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 07:31:19 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-56-146.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:33:52 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 07:34:48 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:39:20 gko` [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 07:43:08 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:43:17 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 07:45:12 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:45:15 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-219-223.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:46:07 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:46:31 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has joined #lisp 07:48:34 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-142-160.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:49:12 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:49:26 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-142-160.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 07:51:20 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:51:32 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:52:11 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:52:41 -!- gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:54:45 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 07:54:51 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 07:55:03 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 07:55:31 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest7733 07:56:54 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 07:57:52 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:58:29 gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 08:01:17 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-f50c48d2a0ae6945] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:03:29 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-252ed5ab58d4b368] has joined #lisp 08:06:36 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-142-160.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:13:40 |Trickster| [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has joined #lisp 08:14:11 gko`` [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 08:14:31 -!- gko`` [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 08:14:36 so I have a collection of tokens that I'm keeping in a balanced tree according to an integer key. However I'd also like to search effectively for the actual string that the token is. do I just make another tree with pointers to the token objects, with the string as keys? 08:14:41 or am I missing something serious? 08:15:05 -!- Jobbesiktningen is now known as Rastbesiktningen 08:15:38 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:18:05 mogunus`: Why use a tree rather than a hash table? 08:18:27 -!- gko` [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:18:39 -!- _Trickster_ [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:19:04 mogunus`: You would typically use an equal hash table indexed by the string representing the token. What does the integer represent that you use as key in the tree? 08:19:12 -!- _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:19:37 beach: the integer is the token's unique identifier 08:19:39 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:19:51 mogunus`: And what purpose does that serve? 08:20:06 mogunus`: Normally, the object itself is a great unique identifier. 08:21:14 cramming a lot of documents into memory and processing them quickly. most of the stat NLP toolkits map features to integers and stick them into arrays to represent documents. 08:22:10 How many tokens are we talking about here? 08:22:38 30 million to start with 08:23:23 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:23:26 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:33 I would get enough main memory, but do you consider storing the tokens in a file to save memory? 08:24:08 yes. envetually I want to scale up to 200, 250 millionish token text collections, and that'll become a necessity 08:24:25 mogunus`: Also, do you really have 30 million UNIQUE tokens? For NLP, that doesn't sound plausible. 08:24:51 no, not unique 08:25:01 mogunus`: How many unique tokens are there? 08:25:14 mogunus`: In NLP, I would guess 100k at most. 08:25:28 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:25:59 much less than that, around 30,000ish in my starting collection 08:26:13 -!- gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:26:21 mogunus`: So storing the tokens themselves in memory costs very little, and it is not worth the trouble saving them to disk. For 250M tokens, you need a 4-byte pointer for each one, with gives you one GB on a 32-bit machine. 08:26:39 *nods* 08:26:41 pizdets [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:02 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:27:11 -!- pizdets is now known as pizzledizzle 08:27:11 beach: does representing them as ints make sense though? my document representation is a vector of integers where each int maps to a unique token 08:27:39 So I wouldn't bother with the mapping to integers. Just store the (pointer to the) token itself in the arrays. 08:28:48 ah, that makes sense. 08:30:44 -!- stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:31:32 The only exception I can think of would be if you are sure to have fewer than 64k unique tokens AND if your implementation allows you to represent vectors of (unsigned-byte 16) efficiently. Then you could save half the memory. Even so, I would not go for a tree, but a hash table. 08:32:40 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:32:40 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:45 <_3b> seems like integers would be easier to deal with across sessions, or when you don't actually care about the contents of the tokens 08:33:21 Actually, I would not even go for a hash table, but a simple vector, where the index represents the unique token number. 08:34:32 _3b: Sure, if you are going to save between sessions, that might be easier. 08:34:51 Hmm. I'd like to save this between sessions, but I don't mind using cl-store 08:36:52 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:37:16 anyone have any recent favorite lisp libraries to recommend? 08:37:38 gonzojive: Anything? 08:38:13 beach: yes, just wondering 08:38:27 gonzojive: editor-hints 08:38:27 How recent? 08:38:46 past 10 years 08:38:50 http://www.cliki.net/Current%20recommended%20libraries 08:39:54 -!- |Trickster| [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:40:08 Hmm, I should add flexichain to that. 08:40:31 -!- Rastbesiktningen is now known as Jobbesiktningen 08:40:34 -!- jao [n=jao@127.Red-213-98-196.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:40:53 gonzojive: What are you thinkinf of doing with it? Improve it? Document it? 08:41:55 HG` [n=wells@xdslfd253.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:42:24 -!- dwave is now known as asksol 08:42:26 beach: play around with it, mostly. I just spend most of my lisp time in solitude so I thought I would probe other lispers for other fun libraries 08:43:06 -!- Guest7733 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 08:44:48 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 08:44:49 S11001001: Are you part of the editor-hints project? 08:45:21 beach: no, I wouldn't do that :) 08:45:45 Oh, I see now, it is tcr and rpg. 08:47:34 It's mostly just me. RPG initiated named-readtables by wanting Franz'-style named-readtables in Slime/SBCL. 08:48:09 mogunus pasted "cleaning?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85184 08:48:12 I initially thought an umbrella project would be a good idea so people do not have to download lots of libraries. I'm not sure about that anymore. Opinions? 08:48:12 tcr: I see. And how are named readtables related to editor hints? 08:48:42 S11001001: ditor-hints ambition for markup in docstrings is interesting. I wonder if it is passed the "TODO" stage at all, yet 08:48:43 I'm always in favor of downloading lots of libraries 08:48:54 is there anyway to clean up that code? particularly the repeated(gethash token dictionary) use in add-to-dictionary. 08:49:13 beach: People are supposed to place an (in-readtable ...) form at the beginning of each file (like it's good style for IN-PACKAGE), so editors can search for that and DTRT 08:49:25 tcr: I would have expected a library like that to contain things like functions for computing indentation of various Lisp forms. 08:49:25 beach: Basically, without editor support, C-c C-k works, but not C-c C-c 08:49:27 morning 08:49:41 hello Xof 08:49:50 tcr: I see, yes. 08:50:03 and repl 08:50:22 |Trickster| [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has joined #lisp 08:50:26 beach: Sure. I think I'll release named-readtables separately, but I'm not sure about it. 08:50:35 S11001001: Was that "lots of libraries" comment ironic? 08:50:53 tcr: Does anyone have any ideas about how to represent knowledge about indentation? 08:51:33 not at all, I believe in the superiority of complex dependency graphs to code copying and aggregation 08:51:43 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:51:44 cl-rdfxml looks pretty good. http://www.cs.rpi.edu/~tayloj/CL-RDFXML/ 08:52:07 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:52:45 beach: I haven't looked at that beyond what I know from Emacs. I wanted to look how other vendors do it, probably similiarly, but perhaps slightly incompatibly. 08:53:08 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-38-234.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:53:44 In praxis, in most instances, it suffices to look at where &body appears at the arglist. It's also what Slime does. 08:53:58 And SBCL's pprinter since a few days :) 08:54:36 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:01 tcr: Emacs is not doing a very good job in my opinion. I tried to do it better for Climacs/Drei, but the code is pretty bad as I recall. It would be great to factor it out. 08:55:37 mogunus`: it is confusing to use the name "token" both for an instance of the class token and for the string. 08:56:00 mogunus`: Also, I would take out the (print token) from add-to-dictionary. 08:56:50 beach: hm. yes. can I do anything about the multiplicity of "gethash's" there? 08:57:26 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:57:33 mogunus`: And you have another problem too, namely if you start the inner loop on a space or newline. Then you get an empty token string (I think). 08:57:57 gonzojive: No I haven't worked on markup in docstring. What I did so far is named-readtables, and hyperdoc (general documentation retrieval) 08:58:11 mogunus`: You can probably just remove the last one. 08:58:20 mogunus`: no wait. 08:58:22 -!- maxote [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:58:25 and I started to write a few utitilies for restarts 08:59:19 i see the restarts file 08:59:20 maxote [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 09:00:13 mogunus`: (or (gethash ...) (setf (gethash ...))) 09:00:40 gonzojive: A more up-to-date version of Named-readtables can be found here http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/darcs/editor-hints/named-readtables/, although that's nost fully up-to-date, because I improved on it at company time and that part is not public yet. 09:02:12 beach: Predicate, and accessor namespaces seem to make things a lot cleaner. 09:02:24 beach: ah, that's good. thanks. 09:02:29 beach: (is wheel X) vs. (has wheel X) 09:03:06 masm [n=masm@bl7-205-43.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 09:03:10 mogunus pasted "decofing error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85185 09:03:12 what causes decoding errors? 09:03:15 Zhivago: This is still your new Lisp that fixes every problem you have with Common Lisp? 09:03:27 Well, it doesn't fix them all yet. 09:03:36 But it's slowly getting there. 09:03:48 I get 0 - three of these every time I run the program. choosing attempt-resync seems to work fine. 09:04:00 mogunus`: Your external format doesn't match what's in the file. 09:04:19 Haven't gotten around to replacing the type system, for example, yet. 09:04:30 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:04:40 mogunus`: perhaps you have a file with latin-1 encoding whereas your Lisp uses UTF-8 by default. 09:04:59 Zhivago: Do you have an ETA for your Lisp? 09:05:12 beach: yeah... hm. I think some of these files are utf-8 and others are latin-1. lovely. I'll switch them all to utf-8. 09:05:20 Well, the current priority is self-hosting, and that should happen in a week or so, as time allows. 09:06:19 I was slowed down a little by separating shared and dynamic variables. 09:08:08 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:10:11 What's shared variables? 09:10:52 A variable shared between execution contexts. 09:11:08 What defvar would produce if defvar did not proclaim special. 09:11:51 Zhivago: you're writing a lisp in CL then? 09:12:36 The initial compiler is in CL. I am rewriting it in itself. 09:13:00 Xophe [n=user@ma772.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:13:57 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-205-43.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #lisp 09:16:00 gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 09:18:26 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229143092.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:20:29 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 09:20:33 Zhivago: have you got a paper on your new lisp? 09:20:43 Nope. 09:21:04 And since I have a limited and unpredictable amount of time, I'll write whatever it is after I've done it. 09:22:05 The basic idea is to write two compilers -- one from an implicit lisp to an explicit lisp, and one from an explicit lisp to a target. 09:31:13 can you call it NewLisp so we can shadow the previous binding of that ill-fated symbol? 09:31:59 I thought of writing a Pascal dialect (that's what I know how to implement) and calling it NewLisp just for that purpose 09:32:35 reminds me of Tom Lerher's New Math. 09:33:13 No. 09:34:16 Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@pppoe-88-147-232-22.san.ru] has joined #lisp 09:34:16 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:34:39 OT: is it me or can the contents of many many corporate IT books be summarized by just their respective "Chapter 3"? It's like a magic number. Flip to chapter 3 and you know all you need to know. 09:34:59 You moving to India when you're done? 09:35:17 Modius: No. 09:36:10 can we send you there? 09:36:28 segv [n=mb@p4FC1BB0B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:32 :-P 09:36:51 No. 09:39:41 Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 09:39:42 In any case, I thought you might appreciate (is foo x) rather than (foop x) :) 09:39:47 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:41:18 benny [n=benny@i577A1BAE.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:41:48 is == typep 09:41:58 (defun is (x y) (typep x y)) 09:42:15 now go on and clean up the type heirarchy 09:42:19 Not in this case. 09:42:52 ok, make IS into a generic function and dispatch on EQL 09:43:05 that should let you have more control 09:43:36 I already have more control. 09:44:17 I have pattern matching which rewrites that into (call (shared-predicate foo) x) 09:45:01 Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 09:47:29 You should also be happy to hear that I got rid of the reader and printer. 09:48:53 -!- Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@pppoe-88-147-232-22.san.ru] has left #lisp 09:49:17 Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@pppoe-88-147-232-22.san.ru] has joined #lisp 09:49:50 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-38-234.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:50:47 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:57 hah 09:52:00 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:52:59 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:53:04 LV-426_ [n=muadib@77.127.106.171] has joined #lisp 09:54:35 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 09:56:51 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 10:03:26 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-252ed5ab58d4b368] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:04:04 Zhivago, do you emit native code? 10:04:37 I currently target javascript. 10:05:14 chris2 [n=chris@p5B169D17.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:05:17 -!- _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:05:49 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:08:26 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1BB0B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 10:08:47 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-9e152cfad6c99ebe] has joined #lisp 10:08:50 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:11:31 -!- gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:11:39 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:21:10 -!- |Trickster| [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:23:20 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:23:35 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:25:08 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:29:25 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:29:51 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-225-121.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:32:49 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:35:15 dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has joined #lisp 10:36:12 Does anyone know if cl-memcached is still maintained? Did it peter out before support for other lisp implementations was added? 10:37:07 ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-186-2.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 10:38:11 _thot2980 [n=thot@203-73-249-80.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has joined #lisp 10:39:29 -!- _thot2980 [n=thot@203-73-249-80.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has left #lisp 10:43:23 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:49:17 -!- Jobbesiktningen is now known as Rastbesiktningen 10:51:03 logBot5704 [n=logBot@59.96.206.52] has joined #lisp 10:51:51 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 10:54:27 dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has joined #lisp 10:55:52 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:55:53 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:57:02 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-71-59-210-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:57:18 BrianRice [n=water@c-71-59-210-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 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[i=pjetter@melkinpaasi.cs.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 11:37:16 http://blog.sucuri.net/2009/08/curiosity-killed-cat.html 11:37:27 poor PHP monkey coders, having to try so hard to avoid exploitability 11:37:54 they ddon't even have to 11:38:06 if they would use some sort of sensible framework-y thing they'd be fine 11:40:19 salva [n=salva@imaxeson.net] has joined #lisp 11:41:28 -!- Jobbesiktningen is now known as ExtraRast 11:42:02 -!- ruediger_ [n=ruediger@188-23-191-224.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:42:06 demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-076-241.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:15 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 11:44:19 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:05 stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:44 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 11:49:26 -!- LV-426_ [n=muadib@77.127.106.171] has left #lisp 11:50:23 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:51:04 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:56:48 girzel [n=user@123.121.238.60] has joined #lisp 11:58:08 |Trickster| [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has joined #lisp 12:00:04 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:00:18 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslfd253.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:01:21 HG` [n=wells@xdslfd253.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:05:24 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:08:50 girzel: my impression is that it is maintained 12:10:29 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:12:00 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-204-214.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:37 pdo [n=user@217.33.254.141] has joined #lisp 12:13:15 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:49 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 12:21:39 Adlai pasted "SBCL Test Failure" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85187 12:22:41 <_3b> install ed ? 12:23:03 *Xach* thinks the test should probably check for /bin/ed 12:23:34 ah, `which ed` => "ed not found" 12:23:43 thanks _3b and Xach 12:25:39 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.180.89] has joined #lisp 12:26:20 "ed not found"?! Ed is the standard editor! 12:27:02 you can imagine my surprise when my last linux install did away with init, too :( 12:27:07 *Xach* is a child of init 12:27:18 Is there a portable way to... bind the list of currently active restarts to nil? 12:27:25 Xach: Heh. 12:27:47 *Adlai* uses emacsclient as his editor... 12:28:58 (Portable or SBCL-only way, actually.) 12:29:37 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 12:30:16 woah, ed is... different. 12:30:25 smells like what I've heard about TECO. 12:31:08 (let ((sb-kernel:*restart-clusters* nil)) (with-simple-restart (bar "Bar") (error "Foo!"))) looks to do the trick... 12:32:25 Xach: which distro are you on that has no init? 12:32:47 Adlai: ubuntu uses something called "upstart" 12:32:57 Xach: and it has no program called init? 12:33:02 -!- logBot5704 [n=logBot@59.96.206.52] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:33:24 antifuchs: that's right. and no /etc/inittab 12:33:47 posix init 12:33:47 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for init. 12:33:51 no linux for old men 12:33:59 this is odd (: 12:34:15 -!- nvteighen [n=nvteighe@10.Red-79-147-46.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 12:34:16 er, I'm running ubuntu and I've got an /sbin/init 12:34:22 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:37 my 8.10 still has /sbin/init 12:34:49 maybe 9.04 changed that? 12:34:53 removing ed on ubuntu doesn't have too many negative consequences 12:35:00 antifuchs: I'm running 9.04 :p 12:35:02 apart from losing texlive 12:35:32 Ok, I stand corrected. /sbin/init exists, /etc/inittab is the thing done away with. 12:35:32 well then! 12:35:43 *Adlai* ran Ubuntu 9.04 for 56 days, and has been happily running Arch ever since. 12:36:04 ubuntu is nice, i don't have to deal with irrelevant crap 12:36:52 toxygen [i=toxygen@stip-static-98.213-81-186.telecom.sk] has joined #lisp 12:36:54 Ubuntu is nice until you switch to Arch + StumpWM and double your laptop's battery life. 12:38:08 hi, which free software compiler to use for lisp? (must support linux & macosx) 12:38:14 toxygen: ccl 12:38:17 sbcl, clozure common lisp 12:38:17 toxygen: I like SBCL. CCL also fits that bill. 12:38:30 is there a FAQ? 12:38:37 Adlai, stumpwm crashes for me 12:38:44 clx is broken for some wine apps 12:38:51 chokes in DECODE-WM-HINTS 12:39:00 did you report? 12:39:08 reported to stumpwm but didn't bother reporting to clx 12:39:22 I like overlapping windows. I guess that means I'm a failure as a nouveau-nerd. 12:39:34 toxygen: SBCL and CCL both work great on Linux, and I think that CCL is best for OSX 12:40:06 dlowe, stumpwm is fun when you can have a firefox window, then make it so you have a firefox window with a terminal next to it (taking 80 columns) in 4 keystrokes 12:40:26 weirdo: I've used it. 12:40:45 dlowe: I really liked overlapping windows, and thought I'd hate StumpWM, but somehow I just don't miss them. 12:40:45 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-7-12.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 12:40:47 toxygen, toxygen.x86.sk is yours? 12:40:55 Adlai: I've USED it. 12:41:02 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.238.60] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:41:26 dlowe: I was just commenting on my own experience. 12:41:36 (sorry if it sounded otherwise) 12:42:01 and actually, I have the best of both worlds atm. I have an emacs full-screened on one monitor and a normal screen on the other 12:42:14 so emacs is my "tiling windows" 12:42:28 *weirdo* has 3 emacs windows with 80 columns each 12:42:40 weirdo: emacs frames? 12:42:43 t 12:42:58 damn their terminology :) 12:43:05 Adlai: np 12:43:05 dlowe: do you also use eshell? I imagine that would be most convenient with that setup 12:43:11 weirdo: yes 12:43:15 weirdo: why do you ask? 12:43:21 Adlai: thanks 12:43:26 toxygen, thank you for providing the service to the community, i really enjoyed these Go ebooks 12:43:35 Xach: dlowe thanks too 12:43:39 Hmm? What? Go ebooks? 12:43:40 weirdo: happy to help :) 12:43:47 nyef: toxygen.x86.sk/Go 12:43:47 Adlai: I would but for lack of ansi color support. 12:43:59 weirdo: i wish i reached dan already :) 12:44:02 so I just use norman M-x shell 12:44:04 normal 12:44:12 toxygen, i'm suffering from online go anxiety :) 12:44:13 weirdo: i read only 2 books from the library, and only half of each =] 12:44:17 Ooh! Thanks. 12:44:21 i'm 10k on kgs but my rank drifted 12:44:24 weirdo: kgs or igs? 12:44:31 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.180.89] has quit [] 12:44:38 igs is kinda' crappy even ehough they allow custom clients 12:44:52 weirdo: i'm actually main developer of glgo now, but it's quite stagnating. i'm changing my uni so don't have time 12:45:00 weirdo: removing ED breaks *nix compatibility :P 12:45:05 toxygen, you should rewrite it in lisp :) 12:45:14 nyah =] 12:45:36 i need tolearn lisp first :) 12:45:47 minion, tell toxygen about PCL 12:45:51 toxygen: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 12:45:55 dlowe: doesn't putting in your .emacl something like (add-hook 'shell-mode-hook 'ansi-color-for-comint-mode-on) fix that? 12:46:06 weirdo: thx 12:46:08 Adlai: not for eshell 12:46:39 Adlai: oh, and TECO is rather different from ED. 12:46:42 *p_l* tried both 12:46:46 jewel also plays on KGS 12:46:55 weirdo: wget -r -np or is there a pdf? 12:47:05 toxygen, there's no PDF 12:47:07 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:47:13 weirdo: btw. how did you find .../Go url? :) 12:47:16 you don't really need to spider it, the page won't go anywhere 12:47:16 from #go? 12:47:20 Adlai: I take that back. Apparently 23 eshell added native support 12:47:20 toxygen, #go topic 12:47:26 p_l: I know... it's just that they both are more of a command interpreter than an editor, imo. 12:47:35 weirdo: i'm reading while traveling 12:47:37 i'll print it 12:48:13 Adlai: When people asked DEC why they removed TECO from editors on some of their systems, they responded with "TECO is not an editor, it's a programming language!" xD 12:48:41 in 50 years we'll have wifi anywhere on the planet 12:48:47 "anywhere you go, everyone is still connected" 12:48:55 ... urk 12:49:02 weirdo: don't scare me, please 12:49:12 p_l: heh, I've heard that story... I guess I just think that way because I've never used anything like ed or teco. Do any of you find that kind of think more useful than, say, nano or emacsclient? 12:49:30 (I know nano and emacsclient are very different, I'm talking about them as just quick editor windows you can open up) 12:49:47 Adlai: I found ed to be very useful, because it doesn't need anything more than minimal line-oriented I/O 12:49:53 ed is useful for applying non-unified diffs and other scripting 12:49:55 but i used perl 12:50:15 manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6B401.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:21 Adlai: I used to configure systems with ed, because I simply couldn't run any other editor 12:50:26 hmm, making multiple packages for the same project sure is a bummer 12:50:37 now i found that on my own 12:51:23 have you guys read lisping at jpl? 12:51:38 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:51:39 http://www.flownet.com/gat/jpl-lisp.html 12:51:42 nice reading 12:51:47 -!- stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:52:41 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 12:53:09 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest75244 12:53:09 -!- ExtraRast is now known as Jobbesiktningen 12:55:48 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.18.140] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:57:40 toxygen: yes, I like that page. It's quoted in PCL, too. 12:57:42 the one about hotpatching the image while the device is far from earth? 12:59:23 weirdo: yeah, it talks about that a bit, although it's a pretty long page that covers over a decade 12:59:37 btw. by any chance, is anyone here from geneva? 13:00:00 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:00:44 dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has joined #lisp 13:00:46 stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:04 -!- rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:01:09 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 13:02:42 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:04 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6D160.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:06:55 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:08:30 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 13:09:43 ok, going idle, see you later guys 13:10:03 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-142-160.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:12:05 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 13:13:55 scottmaccal [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has joined #lisp 13:15:08 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:17:08 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 13:17:26 scottmaccal1 [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has joined #lisp 13:18:01 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:21:26 girzel [n=user@123.121.238.60] has joined #lisp 13:22:54 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:24:28 Does stumpwm have a new floating mode? How does one toggle it? 13:25:54 you create a new floating group. 13:26:01 #stumpwm though 13:26:38 knob [n=anon@65-23-218-38.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:42 Good morning! :) 13:26:49 good morning, knob 13:26:57 tic: Of course...my bad 13:27:04 Morning tic... 13:27:26 Question: I'm starting out in lisp... do I need a compiler for emacs? 13:27:41 knob: no. 13:27:42 something like sbcl4? or can I just dive straight into writting stuff on emacs? 13:27:44 k 13:27:56 knob: emacs includes an emacs lisp compiler, but you can pretty much ignore it most of the time. 13:28:06 knob: this channel, though, is mostly about common lisp, and how to use it. 13:28:20 knob: you can build emacs with a C compiler, although if you want to use Common Lisp, you should get a CL compiler. 13:28:34 I just got totally lost 13:28:53 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #lisp 13:28:55 ok, I wanted to start out with lisp... any suggestions for an online howto? 13:29:01 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:29:03 I was shooting for the mp4 catalog and server 13:29:07 mp3* 13:29:10 knob: Practical Common Lisp is a good book for common lisp 13:29:16 http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ is it 13:29:33 knob, sounds like you've already found Practical Common Lisp, as you mention the Mp3 catalog & server. Did you look at Lisp-in-a-box? 13:30:00 Lisp-in-a-box 13:30:02 no... on my way 13:30:08 gigamonkeys it is 13:30:14 thanks for the help! 13:30:17 let's see what I can break =D 13:30:44 -!- stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has left #lisp 13:34:40 knob: emacs lisp is different from Common Lisp; unless you're concerned by customizing emacs, you should probably better learn Common Lisp, and therefore indeed you'd need a CL implementation such as sbcl, clisp, ccl, ecl, etc... 13:35:15 ooo... ok... is the gigamonkeys book Common Lisp? 13:35:16 knob: you can find also a lot of pointers on http://cliki.net/ (mind the 'education' page). 13:35:21 Yes. 13:35:26 super :) 13:35:29 A good book, if you already know some programming. 13:36:00 There is also a list of books on cliki. 13:36:12 yeah... the site is pretty... comprehensive 13:36:20 "" Imagine a fearsomely comprehensive disclaimer of liability. Now fear, comprehensively "" 13:36:21 lol 13:36:29 There's a lot of good books, but if you want something through more introduction and practical stuff, then PCL is extremely good. 13:37:34 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 13:38:58 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:40:36 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:44:37 Quadrescence [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #lisp 13:46:36 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:47:01 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:47:49 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-225-121.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:50:20 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-82.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:50:33 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:53:56 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 13:54:04 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:58:56 -!- Gertm [n=Gertm@mail.dzine.be] has left #lisp 14:03:36 mikezor [n=mikael@c-4ae470d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:05:51 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-210-38.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 14:06:59 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 14:07:01 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-245.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:07:24 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 14:09:32 i'm seeing "Streams already redirected" after updating slime .. (SB-KERNEL:ASSERT-ERROR (NOT SWANK::*SAVED-GLOBAL-STREAMS*) .. 14:09:47 abcminiuser [n=abcminiu@ppp36FB.dsl.pacific.net.au] has joined #lisp 14:09:58 Holy christ, LISP breaks my brain 14:10:33 Well, you have to break a few eggs to get an omelet. 14:10:53 I'm used to structured languages (read C) 14:11:05 tmh: omelette, please 14:11:13 Why is LISP so popular? I can see it is useful for some tasks 14:11:15 fe[nl]ix: Thanks 14:11:24 But why do people use it for general apps? 14:11:33 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:11:47 abcminiuser: Why do bees make honey? 14:12:00 abcminiuser: it is fun to write, and common lisp has a lot of handy features for general apps. 14:12:08 and the implementations add even more handy features. 14:12:09 it doesn't break *their* brains 14:12:10 uh, clos/mop, macros, closures .. and .. a lot of other stuff .. i guess :) 14:12:18 Fun to write my foot, it's all backwards 14:12:36 (backwards (it's all) 14:12:40 abcminiuser: compared to what? 14:12:43 abcminiuser: The other night I spent some time with some C code and it really drove home why I like lisp, interactive development. 14:12:45 ERROR: MISMATCHED BRACES 14:12:57 abcminiuser: Hey, wanna hear a mildly derogatory analogy I just thought up? 14:13:02 Mmmm? 14:13:31 Saying you don't like Lisp because it's all backwards is like the kid that won't eat their vegetables -- their tastes haven't matured yet :) 14:13:48 *kpreid* is half-serious 14:13:49 also, my one-year-old likes peas 14:13:50 abcminiuser: If I change a C function, I have to compile the file it is in and relink the entire program, in lisp using slime, I just C-C C-C. 14:14:02 so, the problem must lie at your end 14:14:28 the majority prefers britney spears; i.e., it is the majority that is all backwards 14:14:29 Plus, c'mon... it's the 2nd most popular language after... Fortran? 14:14:34 my one year old likes sauteed onions :~( 14:14:57 I'm not trolling, I'm just genuinely confused 14:15:04 obviously 14:15:09 It seems to be very difficult to write a structured app 14:15:12 For example: 14:15:15 abcminiuser: nobody said you were trolling. 14:15:24 abcminiuser: that impression is superficial 14:15:32 abcminiuser: It's difficult for you. 14:15:39 no need to pile on, folks :) 14:15:52 I wanted a program which would ask for the user's name, print it out, ask for a number, print out that plus its factorial 14:15:58 Dead simple in C 14:16:04 who complained lispers were condecending the other day ? ... 14:16:20 However, took lots of time just now to get it right in LISP 14:16:27 -!- mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-4ae470d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:16:32 abcminiuser: that's just a matter of familiarity 14:16:33 abcminiuser: That's because you don't know the language. 14:16:35 why? .. that's easy in both lisp and c 14:16:42 (because i know both .. :P) 14:16:47 abcminiuser: There's also a lot of bad tutorials out there, so you might have encountered one. 14:16:58 What were you using for your lisp info? 14:17:28 -!- demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-076-241.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 14:17:29 (format t "Name? ") (format t "~a~%" (read-line)) (format t "Number? ") (format t "~a~%" (factorial (parse-integer (read-line)))) 14:17:34 doesn't seem so hard. 14:17:36 abcminiuser: that's dead simple in CL as well 14:17:42 dlowe beat me to it :D 14:18:05 http://pastebin.com/d778d259d is what I ended up with 14:18:17 Split into multiple funcs so I could get a handle on it all 14:18:20 minion: tell abcminiuser about lisppaste 14:18:20 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 14:18:56 abcminiuser: We never put parentheses by themselves on a line. 14:19:14 abcminiuser: also, that setf usage is completely out of place 14:19:27 abcminiuser pasted "Lisp Test" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85189 14:19:28 *tmh* decides to concentrate on *billable* hours. 14:19:49 abcminiuser: What were you learning from? 14:19:49 Hmm, neat 14:19:49 kpreid, random tutorials 14:19:51 Plus, I finished eating my cantaloupe. 14:20:04 also, that last line is weird 14:20:21 I mean, unless you want to get a list at that point 14:20:23 Well, I've had all of a hour's worth of exposure to the language :P 14:20:42 abcminiuser: Then, clearly you're in a position to criticize. 14:20:43 abcminiuser: well, I have no idea whether you did or they did, but (read t (print ...)) is nonsense ... it's like if you wrote gets(str, printf("...")) 14:20:50 abcminiuser: you just need to stay motivated for a few weeks :) 14:21:10 blandest, I know, I will 14:21:18 I known C well for my microcontrollers 14:21:32 http://wigflip.com/ is entirely lisp-powered, and extremely thrilling 14:21:33 I note that abcminiuser's program contains no explicit or implicit progns. that may be part of the problem. 14:21:45 abcminiuser: http://pastebin.com/m7fd07ed2 14:21:48 However I couldn't learn LISP in my Uni's AI course due to timetable clashes - so I thought I'd check it out anyway in my spare time 14:22:22 -!- cp2_ [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:22:32 Crap, I didn't realise you can have statements separated like that 14:22:38 As opposed to being nested 14:23:00 abcminiuser: many constructs have what's called an implicit PROGN 14:23:03 abcminiuser: Notice that in Lisp there are no statements, just expressions. Everything returns a value. 14:23:14 kpreid annotated #85189 "quick rewrite" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85189#1 14:23:30 abcminiuser: PROGN evaluates its expressions sequentially and returns the value of the last one 14:23:32 (that's not exactly true, but true enough for a newcomer) 14:23:36 abcminiuser: I just added a quick restructuring of your program 14:23:36 *tmh* cringes at yet another factorial function. 14:23:43 tcr: yes, true enough :p 14:23:53 kpreid: my factorial doesn't blow the stack :D 14:23:56 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.238.60] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:23:57 abcminiuser: (see lisppaste.) didn't change much, just removed the obviously bad bits 14:24:15 Thanks kpreid, looking now 14:24:26 abcminiuser: a progn in lisp (implicit or otherwise) is like a block {...} in C 14:24:41 Except that there are also blocks in lisp. 14:25:02 We should put a factorial-function-detecting transform into sbcl that converts it into hand-optimized assembly 14:25:06 tmh: How's that relevant? 14:25:08 This makes more sense, I THOUGHT a purely stack based language (that is, everyting on a single stack, then evaluated backwards) was a dumb idea 14:25:23 abcminiuser: forth is pretty cool 14:25:37 C blocks are more like LET* : { int c=1;int d=c+1; printf("%d",d);} == (let ((c 1) (d (1+ c))) (print d)) 14:25:42 let* 14:25:49 Well, I thought I was being left behind with only C and Java 14:26:03 abcminiuser: you were. it's very, very good to learn lots of langauges 14:26:15 well, not left behind. Staying behind with the herd, perhaps 14:26:21 Xof: Are you here? 14:26:39 tcr: because I noticed a nil block in a C program I was looking at and really, it dawned on me that blocks in C are more like block in lisp than progn, progn returns a value. 14:27:51 tmh: eh? if you mean cl:block, well that returns its last value too 14:27:55 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:00 How do I invoke a function from clisp, giving a source file? 14:28:14 As in, something like "clisp Test.lis myfun" 14:28:19 abcminiuser: $ clisp 14:28:19 > (load "myfile.lisp") 14:28:19 > (myfunc) 14:28:32 No single command line way of doing it? 14:28:34 that's how it's better to do it for practice 14:28:39 abcminiuser: you could also do that at th ecommand line, yes 14:28:42 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 14:28:42 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:29:21 $ clisp -x (load "myfile.lisp") -x "(myfunc)" 14:29:22 matimago: If you are pedantic, be correctly so! It's more like PROG*. 14:29:57 kpreid: I stand corrected, I didn't think it did, in the examples that I looked at, there always seems to be a return form, so I thought it was necessary. 14:30:06 -!- pdo [n=user@217.33.254.141] has left #lisp 14:30:12 *return* that is 14:30:12 tmh: You're thinking of TAGBODY 14:30:38 huh, PROG* is a good fit, yeah 14:30:58 tcr: Ok. I haven't had a lot of opportunity/necessity to use the lower level operators/functions in CL. 14:31:29 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 14:31:32 *kpreid* nearly had an opportunity to use a tagbody recently, but found that a better way to express the control flow he wanted was (loop while (and (a) (b))) 14:31:34 Think I'm getting a handle on this 14:31:40 *abcminiuser* needs to find a decent book 14:31:47 minion: tell abcminiuser about pcl-book 14:31:48 abcminiuser: have a look at pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 14:32:02 free online, and you can order a hard copy if you want one too. 14:32:29 Bookmarked, thanks 14:32:30 abcminiuser: You're only getting the handle on how to learn CL. I'm on year 3 and only feel that I'm getting the handle on how to navigate the hyperspec and use the appropriate paradigms for the problem at hand. 14:32:51 Indeed, but I'm happy with having somewhere to start 14:33:11 One thing I need to learn next is *why* I should learn LISP -- as in, what applications it is most suited for 14:33:24 There was a chap a few months ago who had a surprisingly pretty solid grasp of it after 2 months I think. Though that was an exception. 14:33:28 abcminiuser: Lisp is a general-purpose language 14:33:50 tcr: how would you define "pretty solid grasp"? 14:33:53 abcminiuser: You might want to avoid hard real-time applications unless you know that your implementation has a real-time GC. 14:34:02 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-209-78.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 14:34:06 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-38.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:34:10 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 14:34:10 I'm just going to toy with it for now 14:34:20 Learn LISP and Python, I think 14:34:31 hm, gotta go. abcminiuser: good luck, enjoy CL! 14:34:37 -!- Adlai is now known as Adlai-AWAY 14:34:38 Cheers! 14:34:55 *Adlai-AWAY* needs to get rid of that ERC "-AWAY" option -- it's annoying. 14:34:55 abcminiuser: And we quit writing it in all capital letters some 20 years ago. 14:35:18 My apologies 14:35:24 tcr: that's right, there's also goto in C... prog* it is. 14:35:38 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:36:16 _Elric_ [n=elric_@host179-250-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:36:17 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:36:44 <_Elric_> good morning 14:37:26 hello _Elric_ 14:37:47 <_Elric_> i'm about to learn lisp, and i don't know which dialect to learn: which shall I choose among emacs-lisp (I use emacs), common-lisp and Scheme? And above all, why ?? 14:37:58 <_Elric_> i hope this is the right place to ask 14:38:05 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:38:09 _Elric_: Well, we are biased in favor of Common Lisp. 14:38:13 *tmh* wants a faqbot or noobbot. 14:38:28 <_Elric_> beach: why ? 14:38:55 _Elric_: It's a more mature language. It has more interesting features than Scheme, so you can use it for real work out of the box. 14:38:56 _Elric_: I'd start with SICP, which uses a subset of Scheme to teach fundamental Computer Science 14:39:18 _Elric_: Do you have experience with programming in any other language? 14:39:21 _Elric_: And I'd continue with Practical Common Lisp then, for the reasons beach cited 14:39:53 Actually, no, not that reasons. I favor CL mostly because of Slime. 14:40:05 <_Elric_> i've programmed in java and python 14:40:16 <_Elric_> i am currently reading the SICP 14:40:20 _Elric_: Emacs Lisp is kind of strange. It exists only because there was no good standardized Lisp at the time RMS wrote GNU Emacs. Plus, he wanted it to be portable, so it compiles to bytecodes that are then interpreted. 14:41:07 <_Elric_> uhm, so Common Lisp is *really* usable in the everyday life ? 14:41:17 _Elric_: Of course. 14:41:17 _Elric_: I think so. 14:41:22 _Elric_: I don't cook with it. 14:41:35 tmh: No? 14:41:38 tmh: have you read the cookbook though? 14:41:40 It's also not good for mowing the lawn. 14:42:07 That must be why I don't *have* a lawn. 14:42:16 <_Elric_> uhm... 14:42:41 <_Elric_> i'll join #scheme, ask there too and compare results 14:42:51 *knob* thinks Lispers are a crazy bunch 14:43:20 knob: being sane has no particular value. 14:43:27 <_Elric_> uhm... 14:43:39 <_Elric_> ok then, thanks for all the answers 14:43:39 beach: it is the result of (values)? 14:43:49 yeah! :) 14:43:54 <_Elric_> what about speed ? 14:43:56 _Elric_: It would probably be best that you gain familiarity with both Scheme and CL and decide for yourself. 14:44:03 _Elric_: I think really any language is really usable in "real life" for the most part, depending what your "real life" consists of is all. 14:44:03 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:08 _Elric_: Don't do drugs. 14:44:09 <_Elric_> is lisp comparable to other languages ? 14:44:25 _Elric_: Common Lisp can be pretty fast. I use it to create PNG graphics as a web service. The drawing and compression is done in plain Common Lisp. 14:44:27 _Elric_: Yes, it is strictly greater than each of the others. 14:44:44 <_Elric_> uhm... that's nice. 14:44:53 I also make animated GIFs pretty quickly 14:44:54 _Elric_: If you are fine with Java and Python performance, Common Lisp will be a pleasant surprise. 14:45:12 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 14:45:13 -!- ASau [n=user@host23-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["BYE"] 14:45:43 tmh: Um, I have heard that Sun's Java is pretty fast these days. Do you have reason to think otherwise? 14:45:43 <_Elric_> i think i'll do as someone suggested: i'll continue reading the SICP and then go through "Practical Common Lisp" 14:45:57 _Elric_: good idea :) 14:46:03 A fine plan. 14:46:59 beach: You're right. I've been working on adapting a numerical benchmark for Java and C to include Lisp in my *spare* time. The latest Java results are pretty good. I don't have any lisp results. 14:47:02 <_Elric_> and... which implementation to use ? 14:47:14 <_Elric_> i am currently using GUILE to test my scripts 14:47:20 minion: tell _Elric_ about SBCL 14:47:21 _Elric_: direct your attention towards SBCL: Steel Bank Common Lisp is an open source / free software Common Lisp implementation. http://www.cliki.net/SBCL 14:47:34 _Elric_: Most people here probably use SBCL. 14:47:37 _Elric_: Use PLT Scheme and SBCL or CCL or CLISP for Common Lisp. 14:48:11 <_Elric_> ok 14:48:29 <_Elric_> and what about scheme? (i am currently reading SICP, you know...) 14:48:30 abcminiuser pasted "Beer!" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85193 14:48:44 How am I doing? 14:49:02 Dangling parenthesis! 14:49:13 *tmh* pokes himself in the eye. 14:49:24 That feels better than dangling parenthesis. 14:49:42 <_Elric_> uhm, scheme seems to be more intuitive than common-lisp 14:49:57 abcminiuser: reminds me of http://www.flickr.com/photos/xach/3384856473/ 14:50:00 -!- jyujin [n=jyujin@d221-88-81.commercial.cgocable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:50:05 _Elric_: Then you should probably use Scheme instead of Common Lisp. 14:50:22 (that poster was drawn by a lisp program...) 14:50:34 But better than before, right? 14:50:52 abcminiuser: lol, this scritp makes me laugh, nicely done. 14:50:52 abcminiuser: We never put parentheses by themselves on a line. 14:51:11 <_Elric_> ok then, i'll go testing 'em 14:51:19 <_Elric_> thanks for everything 14:51:23 <_Elric_> see you :) 14:51:28 No problem. 14:51:39 -!- _Elric_ [n=elric_@host179-250-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 14:52:24 beach: heh, he could use both too - I haven't messed with scheme quite yet, I would like to sometime - just not enough time yet. 14:53:00 TDT: I used Scheme for quite some time, both for my projects and for my teaching, but eventually gave up. 14:53:33 beach: Oh? yeah, I don't want to use it full time likely, I figure just some "working knowledge" in it. 14:53:44 abcminiuser annotated #85193 "Slight Mod" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85193#1 14:54:04 TDT: I invariably ended up with implementations that were abandoned some time later, and I had to write stuff like GUI interfaces and object systems myself. 14:54:54 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-78.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:55:21 TDT: And I found that I wasn't credible when I would tell the students something like "Well, yes, it's slow, but in *theory* it is possible to write a good compiler for it" or "Yes, but you can write your *own* object system if you like...". 14:55:46 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 14:55:49 I think PLT Scheme is making those things less of an issue. 14:56:06 tmh: Yes, until it is no longer maintained. 14:56:20 -!- Guest75244 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 14:57:10 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-140.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 14:57:20 tmh: I got burned a few times. It is hard to make choices like that, betting on the continued interest of the group maintaining it. 14:57:50 Chicken Scheme is a good (but far from perfect) Scheme implementation. It translates Scheme code into C and then compiles the C code to native code. 14:57:57 tmh: This is especially true if it is worked on by students, but even with other academics, because funding might run out. 14:58:00 beach: yeah, I can understand that - but I think an understanding of scheme/CL/etc is really important for students, in general. I know too many people who don't have a functional programming background, and that's disturbing. 14:58:02 do you people use asdf-system-connections? 14:58:30 levy: a-s-c is evil 14:58:38 What's the new boinkmarks URL? 14:58:51 TDT: You are right about that. 14:58:52 beach: Totally understandable. 14:58:57 luis: There's a new one? I always go there via planet.sbcl 14:59:01 antgreen [n=Anthony@bas2-toronto06-1242510988.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:59:19 tcr: that one doesn't work 14:59:35 fe[nl]ix, ok, so what else can i use for that purpose? 14:59:36 "that one" == http://sbcl.boinkor.net/bench/ 14:59:39 -!- Jobbesiktningen is now known as Rastbesiktningen 14:59:44 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 15:00:05 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:00:23 fe[nl]ix, and what is inherently evil in that? (that cannot be fixed) 15:00:25 abcminiuser: you also don't need that PROGN. 15:00:46 ah, it's http://sbcl.boinkor.net/boinkmarks/ 15:01:00 I'd like to volunteer teach HTDP programs to middle/high school age kids using PLT Scheme. Probably wouldn't fly because parents are too literal and would complain that they'd never use it, failing to recognize that programming fundamentals transcend language. 15:01:06 luis: So planet.sbcl needs an update? 15:01:15 Xach: would it be too much of a trouble to update that URL? 15:01:16 gigamonkey, barfs without it 15:01:35 define "barfs" 15:01:40 Oho the new one with shiny java script effects 15:02:13 *tmh* switches to his SCRATCH package to try to see some barfing. 15:02:31 tcr: it doesn't seem to be picking up boinkmarks results either 15:02:55 Ah, got it 15:02:57 luis: the last time i discussed it with antifuchs, it wasn't clear that would do anything helpful 15:03:05 I learn, I learn 15:03:24 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-236-148.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 15:03:24 gigamonkey annotated #85193 "This works" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85193#2 15:03:40 luis: it doesn't seem to have an rss feed 15:03:46 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:03:49 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:03:58 -!- prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:04:05 tmh annotated #85193 "even less barfing" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85193#3 15:04:06 levy: it creates implicit dependencies between code which ASDF can't check 15:04:15 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 15:04:55 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:05:08 abcminiuser: No dangling parenthesis, no explicit NIL or PROGN. 15:05:38 fe[nl]ix, i don't get what you are saying 15:05:58 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 15:06:35 abcminiuser annotated #85193 "What I have now" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85193#4 15:06:41 a-s-c has its pupose, it might be a buggy implementation tough 15:06:54 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:06:54 How do I make it not repeat the last print statement 15:06:59 Other than adding the NIL? 15:07:04 actually it is, because it recompiles the connection each time it is loaded 15:07:05 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:07 logBot9313 [n=logBot@59.92.138.78] has joined #lisp 15:07:48 *tmh* reminds himself, again, *billable* hours. 15:08:10 Sorry, I'll go read that book and come back with questions 15:08:18 It's late here anyhow - thanks for the help! 15:08:24 tmh: gigamonkey's about to strike it rich with his new book, maybe you can invoice him for #lisp time 15:08:41 I can do more in two hours that my friend in AI can do in three weeks 15:08:59 i have a friend like that, too. 15:09:13 It's due to the crappy teaching, not the friend 15:09:16 Xach: worth a shot. 15:09:29 He's excellent at C++, but the teacher's going VERY slow on the lisp 15:09:49 beach: I had a similar experience with scheme, from the learner point of view. Every time I came back to 'lisp', it was a different scheme implementation and I had to learn everything anew. Once I stumbled upon Common Lisp (clisp on NeXTSTEP), I could make progress the next time, and launched from there. 15:09:51 CrEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 15:10:06 Thanks all, I'm off to bed 15:10:08 Cheers! 15:10:19 when a condition is done waiting, it releases its lock? 15:10:26 -!- abcminiuser [n=abcminiu@ppp36FB.dsl.pacific.net.au] has left #lisp 15:11:39 weirdo: No. That's the point. 15:11:42 oh 15:11:44 thank you 15:11:46 one more thing 15:12:05 weirdo: when you stop waiting, you have the lock back so you can check the status and exit from your mutex (lock) zone. 15:12:06 anyone got an idiomatic way of causing all ways to print to a REPL be available from threads? 15:12:10 like TRACE 15:12:39 Well, you wuold have to bind all the stream special variables. 15:13:14 But since you don't want threads mixing output, you would rather bind them to some string stream, to be dumped later, in a synchronized access to the terminal. 15:13:42 i guess i'll have to make a synchronized-stream with gray streams 15:13:52 That would be nice, yes. 15:14:15 matimago: Right. Now when I teach software project management, I warn my students against getting into situations like that. 15:14:18 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 15:14:38 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.173.50] has joined #lisp 15:15:03 beach: that's also the reason why I'm into free(dom) software. I've had rugs removed under me by corporations twice. 15:16:15 levy: if you want to load some glue code between libraries A and B just make an A+B.asd and have your other systems depend on that 15:16:41 -!- _stern_ is now known as seelenquell 15:18:44 what do i exactly have to do to be able to print to *standard-output* in threads? 15:19:18 weirdo: just print to it. 15:19:24 weirdo: You mean the slime repl? 15:19:38 tcr, yes 15:19:55 weirdo: put (setq swank:*globally-redirect-io* t) into your ~/.swank.lisp 15:20:05 thank you! 15:20:44 is it enough if i put it in .sbclrc after loading swank? 15:21:00 I think so 15:21:30 you'd have to evaluate the form, no? 15:21:57 now it works 15:22:01 :) 15:22:34 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:23:00 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:09 jyujin [n=mdeining@vs166245.vserver.de] has joined #lisp 15:24:38 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:28:08 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:28:39 -!- Adlai-AWAY [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:28:57 Adlai-AWAY [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:30:03 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:31:48 Adlai-AW` [n=adlai@93-172-60-194.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 15:31:58 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslfd253.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:32:11 -!- Adlai-AWAY [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:36:19 Idebesiktningen [i=HydraIRC@95.209.76.130.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 15:39:25 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 15:39:39 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has quit [Client Quit] 15:39:54 milanj [n=milan@77.46.251.199] has joined #lisp 15:40:12 dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has joined #lisp 15:41:22 -!- Adlai-AW` [n=adlai@93-172-60-194.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:41:37 Adlai-AW` [n=adlai@93-172-60-194.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 15:42:37 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:43:58 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 15:44:17 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:45:13 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 15:45:14 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.173.50] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:45:56 dto [n=user@c-76-19-36-203.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:38 matimago: I teach those considerations as well, when I talk about risk analysis. 15:49:30 matimago: But it's amazing to me how many professionals are willing to risk their entire livelyhood on a single product from a single company always being available. 15:49:30 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-236-148.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:50:49 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:41 hbock [n=hbock@198.7.232.249] has joined #lisp 15:52:48 Does anyone with a fast machine have some free time to conduct some sbcl compilations to benchmark the affect of my pprinter changes? 15:53:07 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:53:10 fe[nl]ix: that seems reminiscent of something that I was thinking about --- let's say you want to insert glue code between (and I really mean between) A + B, what's the best way to make a system that loads A, then loads your "sandwich filler" and then loads B, and cannot load B before the sandwich filler? 15:53:43 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:53:55 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has joined #lisp 15:54:45 kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:22 is it expected that notifying a condition variable from a signal handler in SBCL would not work? 15:55:32 tcr: I would be willing to set up an account for you on my machine, you could SSH in. 15:56:19 tmh: Are you working yourself on that machine? 15:56:21 Xach: oh, OK. 15:56:42 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-78-106.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:56:45 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsldf251.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:56:55 tcr: Yes, but it has 8 cores and I rarely use more than 4, not sure if that matters. 15:58:04 tmh: Oh ok, sure then if I won't disturb you! 15:58:33 -!- Rastbesiktningen [i=HydraIRC@95.209.47.75.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:58:34 -!- Idebesiktningen is now known as Rastbesiktningen 15:59:03 Related question, how do I checkout a specific version of sbcl from git? 15:59:14 rpg: "cannot load", "cannot compile" or both ? 15:59:27 tcr: I don't think you will. I will probably be running an analysis shortly that will use 2 cores and occasionally monopolize disk access, but otherwise shouldn't interfere. 15:59:58 fe[nl]ix: Let's say "both"; it's a thought experiment. I can't think of a way to achieve this without introducing intermediate systems. 16:00:27 tcr: Send me an email with the user name you want and your public RSA key. My email is on the the page for lisp-unit -> http://repo.or.cz/w/lisp-unit.git 16:00:38 -!- Adlai-AW` [n=adlai@93-172-60-194.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:00:54 Adlai-AW` [n=adlai@93-172-60-194.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:01:16 I don't think I have a public RSA key 16:02:34 tcr: Oh, yeah, I'm running RHEL 5.3, which can be a little dated in some respects, if that's a problem. It's not too hard to generate an RSA key and that's really the best way to use SSH anyway. 16:02:39 fe[nl]ix pasted "sandwich loading" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85196 16:02:43 jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:03:07 tcr: man ssh-keygen 16:03:59 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:50 weirdo pasted "use package and don't while to me" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85198 16:05:10 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 16:05:20 tcr: figure out the SHA1 from "git log" or somehting and then "git checkout " is one way. 16:06:14 is there any way to get how many arguments INVOKE-RESTART expects/ 16:06:29 so i could write a GUI dialog system based on restarts :) 16:06:44 rpg: #85196. I'm not sure it works, though 16:07:45 tmh: should the mail include the fingerprint? 16:07:54 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:07:55 tmh: and you want the pub key in-place, or as attachment? 16:08:00 tcr: "git checkout " WFM. 16:08:07 Hello all--Is there a way to tell which function a "foreign function: #xB7Fe1400" backtrace line refers to when it's a system call? 16:08:13 Just tried with tag sbcl_1_0_9. 16:08:32 tcr: Just attach id_rsa.pub 16:09:05 enn: That looks suspiciously like the vdso area. 16:09:12 weirdo: not portably, on sbcl you can look at the arglist of restart-function 16:09:52 thank you 16:10:07 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-210-41.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 16:10:13 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-140.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:10:15 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 16:11:05 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 16:11:17 tmh: sent 16:11:36 Reav___ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 16:11:44 nyef: ah, thanks 16:12:08 any opinions on having one package and long, descriptive function names compared to having many packages and potentially less descriptive function names? 16:12:44 fe[nl]ix: Yes, that will work, I think (or some simple variant), but it exceeds the capabilities of defsystem, which I don't really like --- I think it's bad if a reader has to look in a bunch of different places to see what the system really is. 16:12:46 booo: Packages should reflect the natural modularity of your system. 16:13:25 beach, yes I suppose.. but at which level of granularity? 16:13:26 booo: You mean so that part of the "name" is the package name, like priority-queue:push? 16:13:54 booo: at the coarsest level you can get away with without too many name conflicts. 16:14:01 rpg, yes something like that 16:14:37 gigamonkey: what made you arrive at that conclusion? 16:14:49 rpg, except I wouldn't export the symbol "push" 16:15:07 beach: well, too many packages (too fine granularity) and you get lost in a maze of twisty passages. 16:15:16 gigamonkey: Similarly, one would like to break down for reuse. I.e., you don't want to mix symbols that you might not all need in the same context into one pacakge. 16:15:21 too few and you end up having to use bad names to avoid conflicts. 16:15:39 rpg: yes, I agree with that too. 16:16:21 To perhaps completely contradict my first advice, you want highly cohesive and loosely coupled packages, just like most other things in software design. 16:16:35 Names that get used together should be in the same package; names that are not should be in different packages. 16:17:34 Further note: if you are doing a lot of symbolic processing, choosing the decomposition gets a lot more complicated, because suddenly you are thinking about data as well as code modularization. 16:17:54 Okay, so I don't think there's going to be a PCL, 2nd edition, at least not done by me. Apress is too annoying to deal with. 16:18:39 I suggest thinking of packages as being fundamentally a way to resolve independent authorship issues. 16:18:50 tcr: Ok, try to ssh to odonata-research.dyndns.org 16:18:59 Zhivago: hah, beat me to it 16:19:14 hmm, ok what about emacs style prefixes? 16:19:16 I wonder if we've given booo enough abstract advice to explode his head yet. 16:19:24 hehe 16:19:26 booo: generally not used in CL 16:19:32 Because we have packages. 16:19:42 when they are used, they feel awful 16:19:43 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32D874.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:26 prefixes are being used for structuring; for protocols, for example 16:20:47 Xach: you're tempting me to go back to Gnus. 16:21:06 gigamonkey: back from what? gnus is an unqualified improvement over what i had before, but i have limited experience. 16:21:26 gigamonkey: what about "Advanced Common Lisp"? Or maybe "CL: Recipes"? ;D 16:21:29 tcr: Ok, finger says you're here. Let me know if you need something installed. I don't know if you've used RHEL 5.3 before, but I think you be a little disappointed with the versions of some of the tools. 16:21:29 the very ability to filter painlessly is lifting a huge email burden from me. 16:21:32 gigamonkey: Gnus seems to be the rare piece of software that makes a clearly false claim in its manual, viz. that reading mail is anything at all like reading news ;-) 16:22:01 Xach: I just use Gmail these days. 16:22:03 tmh: There's sbcl installed and available to me? 16:22:20 But I should probably use Gnus and IMAP to read it, instead of the web interface. 16:22:22 tcr: Yes, an old version, but you should be able to use it to build yours. 16:22:24 Xach: what did you have before? 16:22:33 gigamonkey: ah, i use gnus->pop->gmail 16:22:34 gigamonkey: I understand if you can't use title similar to PCL due to copyright law, but another title... 16:22:37 michaelw: MEW 16:22:46 tcr: I really on yum packages for the most part to simplify my life and just live with old versions. 16:22:47 I see 16:22:51 *rely* 16:22:51 Actually I don't think you can copyright titles. 16:22:59 gigamonkey: I found Gnus way to slow for my liking when dealing directly with IMAP 16:23:10 -!- dto [n=user@c-76-19-36-203.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:23:21 my 6th grade teacher was fond of pointing out the legality of a book about weather named "gone with the wind" 16:23:22 offline imap makes it somewhat better but I still loath it (but can't get away from it) 16:24:02 michaelw: i also use mutt, and am about to stop using that also. 16:24:11 Xach: if the subject matter is entirely different, there are no grounds for problems, afaik 16:24:30 alas, I'm assuming USA, where law isn't written sensibly 16:24:32 gigamonkey: do you have a plot or chart of your sales rank somewhere? 16:24:51 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:25:10 Xach: I do not. But I have the data. What's the easiest way to make a chart. 16:25:22 gnuplot, probably 16:25:34 Yeah, you don't copyright titles, you trademark them. 16:25:35 (if you know gnuplot, that is) :) 16:25:45 michaelw: sort of. But I don't have it on this machine. 16:26:03 gigamonkey: google's charting thing is fairly easy 16:26:15 tmh: Ok I started the first build 16:26:27 there's a lisp package called "adw" or similar that can make the urls for you 16:26:36 tmh: How long does a build typically last? 16:26:39 -!- morganb [n=user@76.109.10.14] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:26:55 nyef: still, I wouldn't like dealing with american copyright/trademark/patent system 16:27:16 tcr: Good deal. I've not built SBCL in a while, you'll have to tell me. Hope this helps with SBCL development. 16:28:51 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 16:28:53 gigamonkey, Xach: isn't there something like wanderlust or something like that that's supposed to be an emacs mail reader that really is a mail reader? 16:29:04 and that is designed for IMAP, iirc? 16:29:17 I use wanderlust. 16:29:42 p_l: Yes. I used to use VM + emacs, but VM really is not an acceptable IMAP client. So now I use Thunderbird, with which I am not in love :-) 16:29:56 mogunus`: Happy-p? 16:29:59 It connects to my imap server fine. It's quick and decent. And it was easy to set up downloading my heavy-traffic mailing lists to my disk, so my inbox didn't end up full to bursting 16:30:02 tcr: How long are you expecting it to take? (notes that it's going on 2:30min now) 16:30:03 Is there a limit on the number of data points using Google's charting thing? 16:30:08 *tcr* just preordered Coders at Work 16:30:10 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:30:13 (my college is stingy with disk space) 16:30:16 rpg: I don't know what that is, sorry. 16:30:25 *gigamonkey* shakes tcr's hand heartily. 16:30:27 rpg: gosh, I stopped using VM around '97 or so... 16:30:35 rpg: "mew" is purely a mail reader, but it's not all that great 16:30:42 tmh: I have no idea. It takes about 20minutes about my slow notebook (hence my request to use someone else's box) 16:30:50 rpg: yeah, I'm quite happy with wanderlust 16:30:51 gigamonkey: yes. (not sure what it is) 16:30:59 tcr: Oh, I don't think it should take nearly that long. 16:31:00 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:31:02 tcr, where from? 16:31:03 mogunus`: I have the opposite desire --- I use multiple machines so I really want all of my messages on the server and not on the local machine. 16:31:10 tic: amazon 16:31:12 mogunus`: that's what VM couldn't do. 16:31:16 (I could only put a "watch this book" on the book store I usually use) 16:31:18 It's surprisingly cheap 16:31:20 *rpg* should just go try wanderlust... 16:31:20 tcr, the German? 16:31:21 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has joined #lisp 16:31:26 tcr: Unless I start running an analysis and we start fighting for access to the disk. 16:31:27 I thought it'd cost doubly as much 16:31:31 rpg: wanderlust could do that just fine. the filtering/virtual folders would work well on the server too. 16:31:35 it's been a while since I looked last, but not many IMAP clients were able to handle a medium-sized amount of mail and offline caching well... 16:31:47 Yeah, 165 SEK (~17E?). It'll be coined that-dead-cheap-book 16:31:51 I access my INBOX folder on the server, and my mailing list filters download messages to disk 16:32:01 tmh: Please tell me before so I can wait. I don't want to dirt the timings 16:32:01 -!- Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@pppoe-88-147-232-22.san.ru] has left #lisp 16:32:26 tic: Yeah the german one; my family is premium member on that 16:32:35 tcr: Your timing the build or something running on the new build? 16:33:01 tmh: the build took 5 mins 16:33:06 tmh: I'm just timing the build 16:33:25 -!- _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:33:30 hmm, I frobbed this so much that I forgot why the invariants hold. which probably means they don't anymore 16:34:27 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 16:34:42 -!- knob [n=anon@65-23-218-38.prtc.net] has quit [] 16:34:49 tcr: Ok, that's good. I'm going to run some stuff now. I use SBCL to generate an FE model for ansys. In both cases I'll be using the disk. So if you see a process with ansys in the name, you should wait. I'm getting ready to run my CL code to generate the model. 16:34:50 ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-191-224.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 16:35:35 tmh: Ok tell me when you're finished 16:35:41 moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 16:35:56 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:36:50 Hmmm. Anyway to get a log scale on Google charts? 16:38:28 gigamonkey: from the docs, doesn't look like it. 16:38:37 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 16:40:28 mogunus`: nice to see you around here. 16:40:53 anyone have experience with using bordeaux-threads or sb-threads within interrupt handlers? 16:41:04 Xach: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/caw-sparkline.html 16:41:21 tmh: seems like you're done? 16:41:34 gigamonkey: lower is better, eh? 16:41:41 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-239.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:42:02 -!- vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:42:08 Yes. 16:42:15 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsldf251.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:42:20 tcr: Heh, that was just a model check, the actually analysis takes about 30min. I've verifying the input for the full analysis. Go ahead and run another build, I can wait until it's done. 16:42:29 morganb [n=user@76.109.10.14] has joined #lisp 16:42:30 *I'm* 16:42:38 vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 16:42:45 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:43:29 tmh: Ok, I'm running a new build. After that I have to build only one more time. Could I ask you to defer the analysis for the 10min the two builds will take? 16:43:43 tcr: No problem. 16:44:36 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:44:39 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:44:47 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:46:42 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:47:16 Xach: that's the past seven days. (I can't figure out how easily to put on labels.) 16:47:37 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:48:33 The min is 531 and max 73608. 16:49:10 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-172562ce11441f7c] has joined #lisp 16:49:10 slime-question (tcr?) : is slime-arglist expected to NOT work on Allegro? 16:49:12 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 16:49:46 gigamonkey: the lisp library is called "adw-charting" 16:50:11 Heh. I actually have that installed already. 16:51:36 -!- jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 16:51:39 rpg: Doesn't seem like M-x slime-arglist works on SBCL either. That's not the mostly used entry point anyway. 16:52:01 tmh: Uh why did the build just take twice as long? 16:52:17 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6B401.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 16:52:40 tcr: Should I try to make a patch? 16:53:08 tcr: Hmm, not sure, I've not been running anything. 16:53:41 tcr: When did you start it? 16:53:52 tcr: Hm. why does it say "unused?" above slime-arglist? 16:54:03 anyone did something like Verrazano but without a gazillion dependencies? 16:54:13 *tmh* tries to be a good host. :-) 16:54:25 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:34 rpg: What do you want to use it for? 16:55:21 I had a macro that expanded to a call to apply a function to something, and I'd forgotten that arglist for the function. So I used slime-arglist and it failed. 16:55:21 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 16:55:44 I'm used to ELI where I do C-c A and get the arglist of something... 16:56:02 rpg: In slime, it's either displayed automatically, or everytime you press SPC 16:56:22 tcr: the use of APPLY seems to foil this. 16:56:27 -!- Rastbesiktningen is now known as Jobbesiktningen 16:57:03 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:05 tcr: Anyway, I'm not actively typing now --- I have the form; I am just trying to understand it. So there's no obvious place to do a SPC. 16:58:29 Hmmm. adw-charting doesn't seem to work to well in CCL. 16:58:33 Switching to SBCL. 16:58:33 kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:47 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:58:56 rpg: There was special code for APPLY, doesn't seem to work at the moment. I'll commit a fix for M-x slime-arglist shortly 16:59:04 tmh: Ok the last build is running 16:59:27 tcr: OK, thanks! Let me know if I can help! 16:59:59 tcr: ok, I'm watching top. I noticed that an SBCL process completed just a minute before, did you have better luck? 17:00:46 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 17:00:55 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:01:13 tmh: I forgot to actually time the build, and looked at a real time difference 17:01:36 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:02:13 plarett [n=faltic@unaffiliated/dconway] has joined #lisp 17:03:08 mogunus`: OT --- does wanderlust do PGP? 17:03:14 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Success] 17:04:07 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:04:21 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 17:04:27 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has joined #lisp 17:04:29 tmh: Ok, thank you that's it 17:04:35 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:04:54 tcr: NP. This machine is on most of the time, so feel free to use it when you are developing. It's my way of helping SBCL development. :-) I need to perform an update that will require a reboot soon, but otherwise I leave it on. 17:05:00 rpg: yes, it has very good mime support 17:05:18 mogunus`: thx.... 17:06:08 rpg: np 17:07:40 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 17:07:55 mogunus`: bah. The MIME packages cited on wl web page are all busted links. Download link similarly busted. Not confidence-inspiring. 17:08:15 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:08:24 rpg: Ok I comitted a fix 17:09:05 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:09:23 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:10:03 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-38-234.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:10:45 tcr: thanks. will pull update and test. 17:13:24 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 17:13:51 Xach: Another, as good as I was able to do with adw-charting before SBCL crashed. http://www.gigamonkeys.com/caw-sales-ranks.png 17:14:56 what's better, lower or higher ranks? 17:15:41 michaelw: lower 17:16:29 that unfortunately looks vecto-ugly 17:16:30 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:17:11 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 17:19:28 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:25 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.173.50] has joined #lisp 17:22:40 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:22:44 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B401.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:07 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:25:13 irfn [n=irfn@122.167.214.169] has joined #lisp 17:26:25 -!- Jobbesiktningen is now known as Mehbesiktningen 17:26:33 -!- irfn [n=irfn@122.167.214.169] has quit [Client Quit] 17:26:35 manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6B401.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:25 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 17:27:46 why did sbcl crash? 17:28:03 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:22 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsldf251.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:30:50 weirdo: no idea. 17:30:51 stipet [n=user@c83-253-28-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:30:57 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-191-224.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:31:12 Xach: look again. Maybe still vecto-ugly (not sure what that means) but not quite so garish. Or garish in a different way. 17:31:18 -!- Reav___ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has left #lisp 17:31:42 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 17:31:43 -!- a-s [n=user@92.81.62.159] has left #lisp 17:32:08 -!- logBot9313 [n=logBot@59.92.138.78] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:32:09 Reminds me of a frequency response spectrum. 17:32:49 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.173.50] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:33:01 blandest [n=user@79.112.99.186] has joined #lisp 17:34:43 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BCDB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:11 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6B401.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [No route to host] 17:37:31 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:39:08 *luis* writes a CL:TIME look-alike and names it ASCERTAIN 17:40:12 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B401.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [No route to host] 17:40:45 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:44:43 Hun [n=Hun@p4FCF71A4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:11 bevingadkatt [n=Bevingad@90-229-229-42-no153.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 17:46:22 clhs handler-bind 17:46:23 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_handle.htm 17:57:58 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 18:01:05 -!- salva [n=salva@imaxeson.net] has quit [] 18:02:53 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:05 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:08:08 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:08:31 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 18:08:44 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 18:13:54 anybody has a function at hand that guesses whether a file is a text file? 18:14:13 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-172-48.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:14:50 see if it contains 8-bit characters 18:14:54 levy: shell out to file(1) not an option? 18:14:57 but that's not good enough 18:15:15 file(1) isn't machine-parsable enough 18:15:18 michaelw, not really, portability 18:15:56 levy: i don't have a function like that, sorry. what do you consider to be a text file? 18:16:30 levy: there's libmagic.so 18:16:32 Xach, probably the same that you... aside from that, file(1) would be ok, it is just not portable 18:16:55 levy: i'm too paranoid to have a pre-existing notion. i'm wondering about yours. 18:16:56 levy: No? 18:17:20 fe[nl]ix, that's has the same issue that file(1) has 18:17:31 segv [n=mb@p4FC1AF83.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:35 you could write an /etc/magic compiler in CL, use that :) 18:18:03 Xach, i did not even think about it, i guessed it is already addressed zillion times 18:20:39 one fine day, I'll write a MIPS emulator in CL and the "portability" argument will be rendered void 18:21:25 levy: that is system dependant 18:21:32 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1AF83.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:21:36 segv [n=mb@p4FC1AF83.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:15 levy: On *nix and NT, file is a stream of bytes, with additional two modes on NT, binary and text mode, however file is the same in both cases. On other systems, it might be different 18:22:46 hmm, maybe i stick to file(1) for now 18:23:23 *michaelw* celebrates win by going to the park 18:24:10 levy: on systems where filetypes really matter, file(1) doesn't exist? :P 18:24:33 -!- ejs [n=eugen@217-33-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:26:29 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 18:29:39 jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:31:03 -!- blandest [n=user@79.112.99.186] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:31:36 splittist [n=dmurray@80.169.130.126] has joined #lisp 18:31:38 morning 18:33:48 hi splittist 18:34:10 loxs [n=loxs@82.119.85.174] has joined #lisp 18:35:48 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-172-48.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:35:52 -!- loxs [n=loxs@82.119.85.174] has quit [Client Quit] 18:36:16 it'd be really need if there was a way to assert correctness of dynamic-extent declarations. :( 18:37:25 s/need/neat/ 18:37:26 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-172-48.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:37:42 Yay, out of context quotes from Coders at Work are now appearing on Reddit! 18:39:04 which reddit / where? 18:39:57 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/99izf/joe_armstrong_because_the_problem_with/ 18:40:17 Jasko3 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:22 haha, awesome title 18:43:15 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-38-234.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:43:26 -!- stipet [n=user@c83-253-28-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:43:37 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 18:44:14 foom: how bad of an overhead are you willing to take? How precise should they be? 18:45:07 pkhuong: I don't know. Preferably exact, so that if they don't fail you can be guaranteed they won't fail if you turn off the assertions. 18:45:17 kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:21 Hi 18:46:22 I can imagine doing a non-exact scheme by allocating the objects on the heap, marking them as dx, and then on the next gc pass, scream if there's live objects marked as dx-dead. 18:46:30 foom: right. 18:46:38 but it doesn't seem like that'd be very useful for real programs 18:46:49 when I invoke (documentation #'sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die 'function) it works well 18:46:56 gigamonkey: funny how the comments descended into FP-vs-OOP battle 18:47:09 however if I type (documentation #'(lambda () "doc" t) 'function) it yields nil 18:47:22 should not it work too? 18:47:28 davazp: How recent is your sbcl version? 18:47:30 since, by the next gc, it's probably pretty likely you dropped the dx-allocated object already. 18:47:46 davazp: I think that was addressed very recently 18:47:48 1.0.29.11 18:48:00 davazp: DOCUMENTATION is very loosely defined. SBCL only started tracking documentation for anonymous functions in the last release. 18:48:59 davazp: 1.0.29.24: preserve docstrings for local and anonymous functions 18:49:01 -!- scottmaccal1 [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has quit [No route to host] 18:49:37 tcr: thanks a lot, I will update it then 18:50:28 e.g., real example: (defun my-error (&rest args) (declare (dynamic-extent args)) (error 'my-error :format-control message :format-arguments args)) 18:50:31 p_l: well, that's about the context in which it was originally said , so that's not so crazy. 18:51:05 -!- kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:52:32 scottmaccal [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has joined #lisp 18:52:45 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [No route to host] 18:56:12 -!- Adlai-AW` [n=adlai@93-172-60-194.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:56:32 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:57:40 jyujin_ [n=jyujin@d221-90-121.commercial.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:10 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:58:38 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-169-80-181.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:48 gigamonkey: with regards to emacs mail clients, i'm back to using wanderlust (with gmail) and it works quite well for me. 19:00:29 drewc: can you point me to some good wanderlust tutorial? 19:01:48 drewc: Me, too! 19:02:16 p_l: the manual and the various wanderlust configurations found through google have been enough for me. 19:02:17 *rpg* just tried to install and found wanderlust page all out of date... 19:03:43 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-204-214.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:04:57 -!- Mehbesiktningen is now known as Rusbesiktningen 19:06:07 stipet [n=user@c83-253-28-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:07:15 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:14:03 hm, the value returned by sb-kernel:get-lisp-obj-address will not change, right? .. i mean wrt. GC and perhaps other things(?) .. so i can pass the value/address to sb-kernel:make-lisp-obj later and it'll return the object again (if it has not been GCed that is..) 19:14:40 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-169-80-181.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:16:37 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-57-150.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:17:37 lnostdal: it can change 19:17:47 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-199-208-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:17:58 lnostdal: SBCL can move objects in a GC. 19:18:02 ok, i'll go for a weak hash with my own IDs as keys then 19:18:26 hash-table* 19:18:50 why do you want to avoid storing an actual reference to the object? 19:19:13 Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:22 *Xach* bets something involving the web is going to be the reason 19:19:47 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.40.35] has joined #lisp 19:20:40 how do you get data type layout in sbcl? 19:20:41 the objects are presented in a UI .. clicking on them in some way (or something...) should display some debug info 19:20:51 *weirdo* wants to see how things look like in memory 19:21:16 ..and i'd like to get hold of the objects directly on the lisp end without having to navigate through a tree of widgets 19:21:16 weirdo: 0s and 1s 19:21:23 michaelw, heh 19:21:36 weirdo: lichtblau had something which could visualize sbcl heap objects 19:21:39 i mean, like C structs with data type and slots 19:21:46 lichtblau, meow! 19:22:14 that sounds kinda like the slime inspector, weirdo 19:22:43 ..but not on a "memory level" ofc. .. but it does show slots and types and values etc. 19:23:19 i want to know for instance whether structure are built upon vectors which include their length as a part of each object 19:23:30 and stuff like this 19:23:48 and whether vectors of double-floats have them boxed and how 19:24:25 weirdo: Look in compiler/generic and you can see the primitive object layouts 19:24:28 oh my, harrop is surpassing himself - now he claims opengl is dying 19:24:39 Zhivago, thank you 19:24:50 mjf [n=mjf@r11gy207.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 19:24:55 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r11gy207.net.upc.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 19:26:53 weirdo: also you might want to look in src/runtime/genesis (if you've built your own sbcl) 19:27:05 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:27:18 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:27:48 weirdo: that directory contains C header files for the data types 19:28:42 piso, thank you 19:29:33 weirdo: what harrop? 19:29:59 p_l, Jon Harrop, the notorious cll spammer 19:30:22 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 19:30:27 i named Toadstool in his honor (his company is named Flying Frog Consultancy) 19:30:28 *p_l* tells Pan to update headers 19:30:48 weirdo: I've not read his post, but he could be correct without even knowing it. I read an interesting interview with some famous game developer suggesting just that. 19:31:06 piso, hmm i can't find how structures are implemented in genesis/ 19:31:22 tmh: game developers tend to ignore GL anyway 19:31:31 tmh, lemme guess, they want to do raytracing on a general-purpose CPU? 19:31:51 tmh: probably Tim Sweeney 19:32:01 tmh: especially since it gets worse on windows due to issues concerning running two separate graphic stacks at the same time 19:32:21 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:32:32 fortunately SGI is in a strong position to shepherd OpenGL through this tough time 19:32:39 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:32:44 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-20-213.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:33:00 Xach: is that sarcasm overflowing my irssi? ;-) 19:33:18 hum, i thought the PS3 used OpenGL or some mini-opengl or so 19:33:22 weirdo: Sort-of. The premise was that with multi-core machines becoming the norm, it's not out of the question to assign some cores to graphics. He claimed it would result in more interesting graphics by allowing developers experiment with new techniques. 19:33:59 lnostdal: yeah, and the only groups interested in using OpenGL are those that write games either for consoles other than x360 or those that want portable graphics 19:33:59 tmh, it would also result in CPUs becoming faster, not just GPUs being of limited use (e.g. overheating, not having recursion) 19:34:27 Just get rid of the cpus. 19:34:41 wait, what? 19:34:45 hahaha 19:34:59 D-N-A computers are the futurz 19:35:07 Why do people have this fetish for running their code in interpreters? 19:35:26 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:35:32 cause the cycle is shorter ? 19:35:32 weirdo: btw, I once seen a post from intel guy working on their GPUs that wanted to put 9p interface directly in gpu :D 19:35:37 brb, food 19:35:44 You'd think they'd complain about cpus as much as lisp, at least. 19:35:46 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1AF83.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 19:36:06 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit ["Be back later"] 19:36:09 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 19:38:38 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-172-48.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:38:49 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:38:55 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:40:20 lnostdal: opengl-es I think, true, and libgcm 19:40:46 the PS3 was a disappointment anyway .. i gave mine away after discovering sony had no interest in normal people playing around with it .. heh 19:41:13 lnostdal: well, that stupid DRM is well, stupid 19:41:42 lnostdal: sure, as long as you don't use the GPU. 19:42:12 pkhuong: it also permanently locks out one of the vector cpus 19:42:49 (because it's used by said DRM) 19:43:18 Oh noes. Clearly that one SPU completely changes the platform. 19:43:40 yeah consoles are DRM and vendor lock-in 19:43:52 pkhuong: well, when you want to do something "fun" :P 19:44:14 they don't care if you can run code, just so long as you can't write games without paying them royalties on it. :) 19:44:21 Should I expect SLIME to fontify #| ... |# as commented out? 19:44:30 yes 19:44:30 my friend once had problems because of the small memory and slow I/O when he ran some simulations on his PS3 19:44:50 hmm xbox can run freebsd 19:45:13 weirdo: the old xbox was a simple PC-like platform, iirc 19:45:29 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:45:41 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:45:51 weirdo: to me? 19:45:56 the old xbox's DRM was thoroughly broken 19:46:46 rpg: It's not good at that, better use #|| ||# 19:46:49 foom: DRM is usually broken by default :P 19:47:11 tcr: I've found a block of code that seems to foil #|| ... ||# in my init file... 19:47:11 http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2065460 19:47:16 yeah he's right 19:47:20 opengl sucks 19:47:35 p_l: I'm still waiting for a nice command-line that will reliably play Blu-Ray disks on linux. :) 19:47:37 tcr: I'll see if I can see how I managed to outwit the regex. 19:48:13 rpg: I wouldn't use it at all. Is it to comment out some form? I'd use #-(and) instead. 19:48:34 Or perhaps let emacs do it C-M-SPC M-x comment-region 19:48:37 -!- mkfort [i=3iNajgTv@68-189-164-209.dhcp.spbg.sc.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:49:00 tcr: Thanks. That did it. There was nested use of #' reader macro that seemed to bust the fontifying. 19:49:06 *tmh* thinks it may be time to profile. 19:49:33 -!- bevingadkatt [n=Bevingad@90-229-229-42-no153.tbcn.telia.com] has quit ["Lämnar"] 19:50:20 hmm can you do O(log n) searches in elephant? 19:50:47 does it involve making persistent trees in lisp and searching them, retrieving one instance at the time? 19:51:23 tcr: One more question: If I see "These swank interfaces are not implemented" is that an invitation to me to try to provide implementations for ACL? 19:51:25 *splittist* is v. much looking forward to Coders@Work and suspects it will become a source of classic quotes (amongst a certain group) 19:54:13 rpg: Yes, which in particular are you thinking of? I did quite some work on the allegro backend for my employer, but that code has not been merged yet. 19:55:12 can someone tell me if this message-passing scheme is good or are there major improvements to be made? http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Synchronous_Concurrency#Common_Lisp 19:55:16 tcr: I was thinking of who-specializes and find-source-location. Getting the stepper to work is probably beyond me. 19:55:17 I don't think I implemented any unimplemented interface, though. I improved definition finding, and also sort the local variable listings of frames to first show more relevant stuff 19:55:20 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 19:56:06 foom: not going to happen unless enough people decide to go against the law 19:56:10 rpg: I may have done those. 19:57:03 foom: copyright law gets murky on some issues. I found for example, that it is legal for me to download movies over internet, but not so legal to play DVDs with MPlayer 19:57:03 p_l, is there DRM in pooland or only USA? 19:57:36 pooland politicians are USA's lapdogs :( 19:57:45 weirdo: what I just said. Based on polish copyright law (had read the damned law from beginning to end for HS) 19:57:47 p_l: uhhh. Most countries have no laws against that. 19:58:00 foom: it's illegal due to breaking CSS encryption 19:58:09 p_l: in some places 19:58:10 at least they won't persecute non-commercial users 19:58:29 p_l: but, back in reality, Debian plays DVDs just fine. 19:58:31 *weirdo* has his whole disk encrypted so they can... well, you know 19:58:31 foom: also, CSS itself might be considered illegal by EU court if pushed enough 19:58:35 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:04 Despite dubious legality, I can certainly play DVDs on linux with no problem 19:59:20 foom: well, AACS or whatever it was called is breakable, but getting it broken requires longer work than CSS (which was dead simple in implementation) 19:59:56 also, author of such tool should be cautious to never appear in USA 20:00:01 p_l: Yes, that's what I said. I'm still waiting for Blu-Ray DRM to be completely broken. 20:00:04 alan kay has great ideas, imo 20:00:15 so I can play such disks in linux. 20:00:19 about message-passing or giving each object an URL 20:00:32 I have no doubt it will happen. Eventually. 20:00:32 unless said author makes sure to avoid publishing any details about himself. FBI can be cranky 20:00:34 he's in california right nao 20:00:48 foom: oh, it will 20:01:02 I personally consider that a law against DRM would be better, though :P 20:01:07 well you can download them from the pirate bay 20:01:09 good luck with that 20:01:20 instead of supporting DRM by buying these disks 20:01:36 weirdo: I prefer IRC, then I'm clear in the eyes of law :P 20:01:50 you mean XDCC? 20:01:59 weirdo: yup 20:02:23 weirdo: XDCC is completely legal in Poland, as is any form of direct download where you don't upload anything :D 20:02:24 anime is fun, nobody prosecutes fansubbers or seeders 20:02:41 there are even 1080p rips, 720p is the norm 20:02:47 but i don't like anime anymore :( 20:02:56 weirdo: because polish publishers of anime are working together with fansubbers 20:03:11 the joy of niche market 20:03:21 they could release legend of galactic heroes :) not that i'd buy it 20:03:39 *p_l* recalls how hard it was to buy GitS on its first release 20:04:15 less than 24h since publication date and I was hard pressed to find any place that didn't sell out already ^^; 20:05:40 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:06:14 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.40.35] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:06:28 well i could find anime on TT the same day it aired on japan television 20:06:33 but let's talk about lisp for a change :P 20:07:04 tcr pasted "SBCL's pretty-printer producing code indented like by a human" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85212 20:08:19 I'd prefer a two-step indentation after the progn in the backquote, and a two-step indentation in the subsidiary clauses in the loop body 20:08:38 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 20:08:41 other than that, looks nice 20:09:14 tcr, well if only it'd downcase symbols now :) 20:09:33 weirdo: (setq *print-case* :downcase) 20:09:42 but be aware, it'll probably trigger bugs in Slime 20:09:42 thank you 20:10:12 for now it works 20:10:14 Krystof: I didn't get your comment about loop; what subsidiary clauses do you mean? 20:10:16 weirdo: one last OT - there was once a case where fansubs got released before the episode in question was aired. Now that was some speedsubbing :P 20:11:04 Krystof: Ah it's indented by 3 spaces right now, you mean that? 20:11:09 crap, rosetta code is eating up all my time 20:13:44 I also pretty-print function calls with information obtained from the function's arglist, so &key parameters will be nicely aligned :) 20:14:57 It didn't have any bad effects on building sbcl itself when I did a simple timing earlier, which came to a surprise. 20:17:16 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:17:55 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32D874.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:37 Sweet, jury duty next Monday, and while being selected I can bring my laptop in - but no net access. 20:19:48 I guess I can keep working on my cl-git library in that time :) 20:19:55 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["bye bye for now"] 20:19:59 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:08 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:22:42 TDT: have you considered maintaing the tradition of climacs and -- hmm, what was the other one? -- and name your library clit? 20:23:32 cl-belgium? 20:23:38 clearly, we need to call a full-blown (pun not intended) distribution of cl+climacs "porn" :P 20:24:07 Hmm, I could swear there was another one. But I don't remember it now. 20:24:20 luis: lol, not a bad idea, it's a git library so that's kinda what I went from :) 20:24:27 -!- hbock [n=hbock@198.7.232.249] has quit ["leaving"] 20:24:42 -!- stipet [n=user@c83-253-28-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:25:21 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:28:18 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 20:28:38 there's no fork of ucw is there? someone said there was a hunchentoot based version but assume that was false. 20:29:10 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:30:35 luis: I wish someone would have the courage to do so. 20:30:46 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:14 luis: In fact, I think "Climacs" was the best name I ever invented. 20:32:40 :-) 20:33:01 ruediger [n=ruediger@93-82-2-66.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:33:35 I'm proud of inventing "snarc" 20:33:41 p_l: I understand that in Russian, "climax" (or however they spell it) means "menopause". So in different languages it has some "loaded" meaning, but not the same one. 20:33:54 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-80-181.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:25 heh, I'm afraid to google that name for the project though ;) 20:34:50 dlowe: in the new Web 2.0 world, "snarcl" would be even better 20:35:11 luis: yes, but it's a stab at arc as well as being a pun 20:35:12 La jouissance ā la ménopause, įa convient parfaitement... 20:35:16 TDT: The trick is to find a name that is memorable and that has a unique Google response to it. 20:35:21 dlowe: ah, nice. 20:35:51 pjb: Is this some known quotation? 20:36:13 No, I make reference to the age of Lisp and the pleasure to use it :-) 20:36:23 luis: snarc is a naming layer over common lisp like arc is (was?) over scheme, but doesn't have any claims of greatness 20:36:26 pjb: fair enough 20:36:34 And the meaning of climax in English and Russian. 20:37:03 dlowe: nor google love, it seems. 20:37:06 hm. that's something for tomorrow. 20:37:22 beach, need I any particular versions of obscure repositories of libraries to get Climacs to build? 20:37:24 luis: I haven't done all the distribution ritual stuff 20:37:40 tic: Don't think so. 20:38:08 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.40.35] has joined #lisp 20:38:21 tic: Oh, and forget about the regional food. I'll get some stuff in Malmø. 20:38:43 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.40.35] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 20:38:55 beach, but I want to bring regional food! 20:39:05 tic: Then please do! 20:39:28 beach, I have dessert planned, see if I can come up with something Bohusländskt for a side/main course. 20:39:49 tic: That would be wonderful! 20:41:10 Isn't Swedish great where you can end a word with 5 consontants "dskst"? 20:41:25 phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 20:41:43 [ot] wikipedia: "An average professional typist reaches 50 to 70 wpm, while some positions can require 80 to 95 " 20:41:59 i just got 106 in gnu typist, that's ridiculous, someone gets money for typing at 50 wpm? 20:42:22 weirdo: They don't get very much money though. 20:42:27 beach, rzeczewie, speaking of consonants. :) 20:42:39 weirdo: without errors! 20:42:42 tic, s/cze/czy 20:42:47 weirdo: try maintaining that speed for 2 consecutive hours without errors 20:42:52 weirdo, oops. thanks. 20:42:56 s/e/cie 20:42:59 "rzeczywicie" 20:43:04 meh! I got it all wrong, it seems. 20:43:10 *beach* *loves* #lisp 20:43:44 fwiw, it means "really", for instance when correcting myself 20:43:48 s/myself/oneself 20:44:08 weirdo, I keep forgetting "cie" making the  sound. In fact, I should continue w/ my grammar/spelling lectures Any Day Now(tm) 20:44:19 "rzeczywicie, your code works, i was wrong" 20:44:32 tic, there are redundancies in polish language, for instance "rz" and "" making the same sound, etc. 20:44:36 rzeczownik, on the other hand, means noun. Very similar, but very different meaning. 20:44:45 tic: it's lame though, because there are only at most 2 consecutive consonants. 20:44:47 tic, "rzecz" means "thing" 20:44:49 weirdo, I hate that. Can never remember when it's rz and . :) 20:44:50 german word with the longest sequence of consonants has 8 20:45:05 tic, when i was 4-6 years old i used to end words with "ķ" instead of "u" 20:45:06 michaelw, hah, what word? 20:45:13 Angstschweiss 20:45:24 Nice! 20:45:31 beach, yeah, I agree. It's got toung-wrecking qualities, though. :-) 20:45:40 nah, easy 20:45:41 weirdo, hah, so did I! 20:45:45 that's what I like in Japanese - lack of long sequences of consonants :D 20:45:49 "angstszczwajs" 20:46:00 -!- |Trickster| [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:46:15 p_l, do you share my belief that japanese is a subset of polish? 20:46:23 some people say that "tsu" isn't like "cu", though 20:46:33 co? 20:46:52  20:47:00 p_l, i dunno kanji 20:47:03 michaelw: It's a bit cheating though. In Swedish "Västkustskt" is truly hard to pronounce. 20:47:04 but like "tsuki", moon 20:47:41 hmm "tsuki" like polish "cukier", sugar 20:47:45 *p_l* is reminded of "Stķ z powyamywanymi nogami". Damn, it was ever hard to write :P 20:47:53 otoh, there's a romanian word comprised entirely of 5 vowels 20:48:13 -!- phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 20:48:35 i wonder why non-poles are interested in the polish language, the country is such a dump 20:48:40 we're very right-wing socially 20:48:52 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:52 fe[nl]ix: Glad you suggested that, in värmländska (mid-west Swedish) you can say "o i åa e e ö" 20:49:01 at least the police generally minds its own business 20:49:16 weirdo: I think what most people on the net associate with "right wing" would claim that we are socialist to the bone :P 20:49:30 p_l, only economically we're socialist 20:49:52 p_l, I never learned to pronounce that, so I just say "stķ bez nok." 20:49:58 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:49:59 "nķg" :)) 20:50:11 jao [n=jao@127.Red-213-98-196.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:21 my aunt is swedish 20:50:33 I should read to myself what I write. nok is indeed not correct. 20:50:34 weirdo: Sorry to hear that! 20:50:38 hold on... a crazy idea 20:50:41 my aunt's polish, how about that? 20:50:47 tic, does your mother's last name begin with "k"? 20:50:48 we could be related! 20:51:04 weirdo, nope, L. 20:51:08 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:09 :( 20:51:35 because she has a son with "mikael" for a first name 20:51:43 he did some card game stuff in shangai or something 20:51:56 Oh, certainly not me. I'm surfing the web in Sweden. 20:51:57 he's a programmer too 20:51:59 -!- Jasko3 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:52:04 :) 20:52:12 weirdo: as for japanese being related to polish.. I remember a picture in Gazeta Wyborcza, long time ago, in some joke edition for 1st April, that had "Poland - Japan, two brothers" with a samurai and szlachcic together... they looked quite similar, I have to say :P 20:53:07 p_l, weirdo: do you have recommendations for somewhat-easy-to-read Polish general online news? 20:53:21 tic, http://wolnemedia.net 20:53:33 nope, I don't read much news from poland 20:53:33 weirdo, dziki! 20:53:36 onet.pl, wp.pl are mainstream ones 20:53:57 i know a bunch of hardline marxist/anarchist news if you want them :) 20:54:35 I just need to practice my reading skills. Right now I read fastest in English (I think), followed by Swedish, probably even German, and then Polish at the end. I feel ashamed. 20:54:43 *p_l* likes roasted anarchists. Giving them a taste of their own medicine ;-) 20:54:57 *tic* opens up wp.pl and is greeted naked ladies. 20:54:57 i don't say much in polish now except "matka, zrķb herbat" 20:54:58 :) 20:55:06 haha 20:55:31 tic, you sure? does it say "wirtualna polska" in the title? 20:55:42 weirdo, it does. 20:55:54 weirdo: concerns a news from Australia 20:55:57 the headlines-with-pictures-box 20:56:10 and two other news 20:57:09 otoh, they could choose nicer photos :/ 20:58:24 ... anyway, the only news item that I ended up reading made me reinforce my resolve on not reading polish news :/ 20:58:26 "kto ma najszybsze piersi?". that makes no sense! 20:58:42 tic: context 20:58:57 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.40.35] has joined #lisp 20:59:02 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:12 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:59:25 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.40.35] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 20:59:49 beach, is there a Git repos of Climacs other than the CVS mentioned at c-l.net? 21:02:43 TDT: what's your "CLIT" library do? Is it a CL interface to git commands? 21:03:35 Adlai: *nod* yep, that's exactly what it's for. 21:04:13 Started out as a mental exercise, but had a few show interest in it from here, so trying to make it really nice in the end. 21:04:25 I was thinking the other day that git could have better support for CL -- maybe a sort of CL module that you could plug-into git. 21:04:34 -!- Rusbesiktningen is now known as Ginbesiktningen 21:04:52 Adlai, what would be the support be? 21:05:21 well, if you look at the kinds of changes that happen to CL source code, there are certain patterns that are at a higher level than any line-oriented diff tool detects. 21:05:33 This is more a different kind of diff then a change to git, though. 21:05:54 for example... if you have a bunch of code in a closure, and then you take it out. 21:06:02 Yeah, don't see how git would help you there. You'd need to swap out the merge and diff mechanisms. 21:06:33 text is text no ? 21:06:37 right. When I think version control, I think git, though :) 21:06:47 https://github.com/TheDarkTrumpet/cl-git -- this is the git library for those interested, it's not in "working condition", totally yet though. 21:06:53 Dawgmatix_, text is text, but s-exps aren't plain text lines. 21:07:32 Dawgmatix_: I guess it would be neat if you could present information in a more high-level way. I have worried though that this might require standardizing indentation. 21:08:18 another example is when you add a line to a function. 21:08:21 along that way lie pythons ;) 21:08:58 I've actually toyed with the idea of a non-parenthesized Lisp, but I'm not prepared to voice an opinion for or against it until I've tried it. 21:09:18 whats the use case for having the diff tool understand the language ? better highlighting of the diffs ? 21:09:23 clhs ~F 21:09:23 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cca.htm 21:10:17 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p4FCF71A4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:11:27 what's wrong with lisp-mode? 21:11:34 now it can't indent &body properly 21:11:57 Is there any way with adw-charting to take the key off a line chart? 21:12:06 Adlai pasted "an example where a lispier difftool could help" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85217 21:12:08 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@80.169.130.126] has quit ["ETOOTOOTOO"] 21:12:47 my lispier difftool would not highlight both lines as changed 21:12:58 or at least, it would do so in a way that would indicate the type of change 21:13:22 I see :) 21:13:46 there are more complex examples. 21:14:01 Imagine a top-level closure, with a few defuns inside it. 21:14:20 then you pop out the binding, make it global, and the defuns become toplevel too. 21:14:57 the difftool should/could record that as defuns being popped out of a closure, the closure being deleted, and a new (defvar ...) form being added 21:15:14 rather, it gets recorded as some 75 lines of code changed... 21:16:43 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit ["leaving"] 21:16:49 on SBCL (format nil "~,2F" 0.001) => "0.001". Shouldn't it be "0.00"? 21:17:52 hmm swank is like, "streams already redirected" 21:17:52 tcr? 21:19:15 My parametric finite element model generator written in CL takes 35 seconds to generate a 51M text input file. It's definitely time to start profiling. I have an inclining where improvements can be made. 21:19:45 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 21:20:23 kzar [n=kzar@174.6.66.224] has joined #lisp 21:20:29 Still interested to see what the profiler says. May be time to run it in different implementations and see if there are common hot spots. 21:21:11 tmh: Educate a newb... what is a parametric finite element model? 21:21:32 (or just tell a newb to google...) 21:22:17 Adlai: Parametric refers to defining the model using as few parameters as possible, then my code goes and generates the detailed finite element mesh, one of the most tedious aspects of modeling. I'm modeling the root sections of wind turbine blades. 21:22:38 It also generates the boundary conditions. 21:23:21 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:23:23 tmh: are you doing the simulation in CL as well? 21:24:00 danlei`` [n=user@pD9E2CB20.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:02 hmm so you're trying to build a model that maximizes the accuracy / complexity ratio? 21:24:38 p_l: No, but I have a fair amount of motivation to create a replacement in CL, give me 3-5 years :-) 21:24:51 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsldf251.osnanet.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:24:58 tmh: what are you for simulation? ANSYS? 21:25:34 Adlai: Sort-of, except that the model I feed to the commercial solver (yes p_l, ANSYS) is relatively complex, only my input is simple, the way I like it. 21:26:20 The power of CL is that I have captured a fair amount of my meshing style and logic in code and now it is done effortlessly. 21:27:03 Really, I shouldn't bother worrying about 35 seconds, but that's what CL does to a person, raises expectations. 21:27:46 A basic analysis of the model takes 50mins. 21:28:11 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:28:28 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B401.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:44 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B401.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:28:46 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B401.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:47 tmh: will the stuff for cooperation with ANSYS be available? I'd be rather interested (maybe I'll make something to prepare models through AutoCAD, ANSYS removed support for dxf import) 21:29:05 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B401.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:29:15 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:24 dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has joined #lisp 21:29:45 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B401.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:53 dorkfish [n=dorkfish@74-131-35-150.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 21:30:18 -!- dorkfish is now known as nerdshark 21:31:05 p_l: I'd intend to. This is a commercial project, so I can't make everything public, but I've tried to keep the propriety stuff separate from generic stuff. The development has been a little ad-hoc and I need to factor out the ANSYS stuff before it can be made public. It's all pretty intertwined with other code at the moment. 21:31:13 *I intend to* 21:32:19 p_l: Also, I've only been using BEAM188, SOLID185 and some target/contact elements, so there isn't a lot of coverage. 21:32:27 how do you check if a graph is circular without copying its nodes? going for 1 ... n cases, then going through n-1 cases and seeing if this node antried already? 21:33:34 or is there a better/correct way? 21:33:40 weirdo: you only need a flag per node... 21:34:56 p_l: What I really want is a swank like interface to the ansys console with appropriate CL functions so that I can drive ANSYS from the REPL. 21:35:46 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:35:50 tmh: well, my father uses ANSYS, so I might help him a little. And I'm interested in learning that tool as well :) 21:35:54 weirdo: you may keep this flag in a separate data structure, like a hash-table mapping nodes, so you don't really copy the graph, just you fill a structure with nodes. 21:36:28 ls 21:36:33 ... Oops. 21:36:42 p_l: ANSYS is a pretty decent solver but the interface is infuriating. 21:36:50 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:41 -!- cracki_ is now known as cracki 21:38:15 pjb, why is my solution bad? because it's O(n^2)? 21:38:46 seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 21:38:53 tmh: I like it for sentimental reasons (interface, that is) 21:39:18 pjb: ping 21:40:05 p_l: You're sentimental about a buggy TCL/TK interface with multiple/confusing paths to the same commands that leaves you with no confidence that it actually did what you intended? I can see that. :-P 21:40:53 wow SUBST is handy 21:41:13 -!- danlei` [n=user@pD9E2C61E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 21:41:46 p_l: In all seriousness, I only use the interface to prototype ideas, then code everything up in APDL and lately, in CL that generates APDL> 21:41:59 tmh: it doesn't change, while everywhere around people change interfaces without improving functionality 21:42:13 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:15 and old unix UIs somehow make me feel at ease 21:42:51 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 21:43:03 I guess it's because I learned a lot from old books and started working on Linux before advent of D-Bus&co :P 21:43:34 can you even learn a linux from the inside out nowadays? 21:43:40 p_l: I can appreciate that, although I'm not sure that GUI is the best example. There are some motif programs out there that are ugly as hell but just work, mgdiff comes to mind. 21:43:56 hrk [n=hrk@acurwa002124.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:44:10 I was running the MWM on FreeBSD before I had to switch to linux. 21:44:44 p_l: Really, if you like old programs that never change, buy a license for RHEL. :-) 21:45:09 or solaris ;) 21:45:36 -!- seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 21:46:22 *tmh* shouldn't complain, RHEL is a reasonably solid OS, even if the applications are a little dated. 21:46:27 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B401.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [No route to host] 21:47:24 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:47:29 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 21:47:33 brnhck [n=hrk@acurwa002124.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:48:22 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@93-82-2-66.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:48:57 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [] 21:48:59 -!- Ginbesiktningen is now known as Matbesiktigar 21:50:22 Dawgmatix_: actually, if I had a sun machine, I'd run Solaris on it (and I mean Solaris, not OpenSolaris) 21:50:31 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:50:46 p_l : you can run sun solaris on non sun machines 21:50:47 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:58 i think they give it away free as in beer now. 21:51:26 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsldf251.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:51:32 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsldf251.osnanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:51:38 How different are old Unixes from modern Linuxes? 21:51:41 Dawgmatix_: the thing is, it doesn't support the machines I have well enough 21:51:47 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsldf251.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:51:54 Adlai: Depends what you call Modern Linuxes 21:52:10 hmm - same here :) solaris doesnt like a) microsoft mice b) nvidia sata chipsets (among other things) 21:52:15 p_l: since I'm pretty new to things computer-related, I'll let you define that. 21:52:23 I guess my install isn't that different except for autoconfiguration and modularity instead of manual recompiling config 21:52:25 -!- brnhck [n=hrk@acurwa002124.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 21:52:50 brnhck [n=hrk@acurwa002124.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:52:58 -!- brnhck [n=hrk@acurwa002124.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:53:13 and even that was available around 10-15 years ago 21:53:40 p_l: what modern Linux would you say that's similar to? I'm guessing more Arch/Gentoo-like than Ubuntu, right? 21:53:58 i never thought that zfs would be useful until i deleted a directory on an ext3 partition recently by mistake. 21:54:12 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:54:18 and then you restored from your backups, right? :) 21:54:25 nope 21:54:30 Dawgmatix_: ZFS has wonderful ACL support. And I say it after having to write a tool that had to support POSIX acls -_-; 21:54:32 cried and wiped my tears sadly. 21:54:49 thats my process for dealing with lost data :D 21:55:01 aren't there tools that find recently files/folders? 21:55:13 i did recover most of the data :) 21:55:17 Adlai: yeah, Gentoo/Arch without KDE/GNOME are quite similar to "classic" *nix experience 21:55:20 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Operation timed out] 21:55:24 but some files were unrecoverable 21:55:37 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:55:38 ie, search the filesystem sector-by-sector for data which could be interpreted as a file? 21:56:11 p_l: would you count X as part of this experience, or was it all ncurses back in the day? 21:56:20 Adlai: X11 included 21:56:27 and maybe old KDE/GNOME 21:56:32 -!- Matbesiktigar is now known as Personslip 21:56:33 ok, just not big cuddly GNOME icons :) 21:56:46 not so much about the icons as d-bus et al. 21:56:54 ones that didn't load tons of additional stuff, like PolicyKit, HAL and other shit :/ 21:56:54 *Adlai* googles dbus 21:57:08 yeah, hald and trackerd. bleh. 21:57:16 dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has joined #lisp 21:57:28 d-bus itself isn't bad concept, but reusing it as systemwide bus clashes with *nix model harder than BSD sockets 21:57:32 they had larger icons back then. both windowmaker and the old sun ui (dont remember the name) had gigantic icons 21:57:57 Dawgmatix_: except they used icons mostly for minimalised apps :D 21:58:04 yes :D 21:58:24 *p_l* once witnessed even the infamous Sun optical mouse 21:58:43 I was a young bofhlet back then :) 21:58:55 I don't even have a desktop, it's covered by a stupmwm frame. 21:59:06 old ui is like the "black and white movie" barrier for me. if i see old icons with the faux 3d shadow border look I find the app just impossible to use. 22:00:03 hmm with downcasing symbols there's not enough shouting going on 22:00:05 it feels weirfd 22:01:33 anyone played with DOM and browser code in here ? I am just getting started and have a few questions. I tried asking in the web forum but havent heard of a response. 22:01:34 tic: I'm surprised at how easy it was to move to stumpwm 22:02:35 it's really quite irritating how all this new *Kit and *Bus stuff is breaking all the old stuff at the same time 22:03:21 emacs is still around ;) 22:03:26 Adlai, it's nifty. 22:04:47 e.g. eject doesn't work as a nonpriv user anymore, you're supposed to use D-Bus to talk to HAL to eject usb devices now, or something. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/udev/+bug/311758 22:05:25 foom: not to mention that D-Bus doesn't conform to system security, so of course they have to define a lot of new security systems... 22:05:56 tic: there are things that I don't like about it, but I do like the knowledge that if I ever feel like fixing them, there's no C, Haskell, or elisp involved :) 22:06:42 <[df]_> Adlai: it's certainly the most hackable wm I've ever used 22:07:05 *Adlai* is allergic to manual macroexpansion. 22:07:55 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 22:08:13 p_l: indeed, resulting in bugs like https://bugs.launchpad.net/dbus/+bug/75602 22:08:44 dbus doesn't get your actual groups, it looks up the ones you might get via /etc/groups 22:08:50 so pam_group doesn't work anymore 22:09:28 sigh. 22:10:26 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:12:23 heh. I actually have a better solution for managing all this shit due to placing a separate security system in-kernel. Even if I dislike SELinux, it's better thing than PolicyKit/ConsoleKit :/ 22:12:41 [ot] http://www.fsf.org/blogs/rms/entry-20041206 22:15:01 weirdo: you don't have to say OT when the T itself is OT... 22:16:58 dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has joined #lisp 22:17:19 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 22:17:48 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.251.199] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:18:16 Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 22:19:35 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [Success] 22:19:41 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:21:58 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229143092.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 22:24:29 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["leaving"] 22:27:46 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:28:10 weirdo, while off-topic, have any polish music recommendations? 22:29:00 tic, i sent you a message 22:29:11 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 22:29:19 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B401.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:23 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:30:11 peddie [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:50 rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:34:31 demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-076-241.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:32 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:38:25 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 22:39:09 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 22:41:34 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32D874.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:04 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:42:07 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-7-12.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 22:44:19 -!- demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-076-241.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 22:44:51 amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 22:45:47 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B401.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [No route to host] 22:47:52 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:48:04 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 22:48:11 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:48:18 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:48:37 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 22:50:21 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:50:30 Carnegie [n=nn@studio25.org] has joined #lisp 22:50:34 -!- Carnegie [n=nn@studio25.org] has quit [Client Quit] 22:50:39 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 22:52:28 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 22:52:42 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 22:54:24 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsldf251.osnanet.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 22:54:35 clhs / 22:54:35 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_sl.htm 22:59:00 heh, have some of that... divide by zero is undefined... not neccessarily and error... learn something new every day. 22:59:24 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:59:26 drewc: just like we learned in high school :) 22:59:35 jordyd [n=jordy@c-76-108-123-3.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:37 s/we/I/ 22:59:41 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:00:23 Adlai: :) 23:00:52 yeah. Pity that they already cut down some of the curriculum when I was in HS, even if I didn't have great grades (I lacked a lot in motivation, I think) 23:00:53 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.181.241] has joined #lisp 23:01:00 any sbcl on darwin users? is (/ 1 0.0) an error there? 23:01:26 not an error on x86 23:02:29 Hmm... I get condition DIVISION-BY-ZERO 23:02:43 how do I make it return NaN? 23:02:52 p_l: what platform? 23:03:04 drewc: x86-64 23:03:20 p_l: (sb-int:set-floating-point-modes :traps nil) 23:03:32 SB-EXT:SINGLE-FLOAT-POSITIVE-INFINITY # here. 23:03:47 DrForr: platform? 23:04:07 sbcl on MB Pro, x86 23:04:10 right, now I get positive infinity, like I should 23:04:36 DrForr: thanks, that confirms that :) 23:04:42 bloody hell. 23:05:02 frankly speaking, it should also report infinity for integer operations and possibly claim division by zero only if integer-only operation receives infinity 23:05:27 p_l: no, undefined means undefined. 23:05:59 *p_l* remembers dealing in HS with equation 1/0 => +inf 23:06:37 darwin sbcl has broken fp trap support, eh/ 23:06:53 If I have nested lists, for example: (5 2 6 (6 9 3) (8 8 5 (7 4 9))), is there a way to get them all into one list, like this: (5 2 6 6 9 3 8 8 5 7 4 9)? 23:07:17 jordyd that sounds like an assignment problem :) 23:07:46 foom: indeed, broken or simply unsupported. 23:08:23 Dawgmatix_: :) It's not. I'm on Project Euler, and I've made a function that finds all the prime factors of a number, but it returns lists like that. 23:09:00 jordyd you could use a flatten function 23:09:27 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:09:40 JAS415: Thanks, I'll look into that. 23:09:50 i think the alexandria library might have one 23:11:13 http://common-lisp.net/project/alexandria/ 23:12:39 Is it ANSI to signal on (setf (documentation 'blah 'function) "etc") when BLAH is not defined? 23:14:07 I don't know whether it's ANSI but it's appropriate 23:14:23 probably undefined 23:14:30 clhs documentation 23:14:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm 23:14:57 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:52 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-78-106.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:17:31 Xach: herep 23:19:23 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.181.241] has left #lisp 23:20:19 jordyd: you might want to use mapcan instead of mapcar somewhere. Be sure to apply mapcan only on lists newly built (returned by the function). 23:21:04 jordyd: and using vectors to find primes will probably be faster than lists... 23:23:36 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:24:55 pjb: It only stores the results in lists, it doesn't actually do any calculations with them. 23:25:05 ok. 23:25:53 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 23:26:40 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:27:29 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:28:03 jordyd: which projecteuler problem you working on? 23:28:23 Adlai: Third. 23:28:47 Adlai: I'm new to lisp. I figured I'd practice on Project Euler. 23:29:03 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:14 ah, you've got many fun ones ahead of you. I especially enjoyed the ones involving graph searches, I found that CL was a pretty neat language to do those in. 23:29:18 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:30:00 Adlai: Seems like I'm getting a lot of practice with loops so far. 23:30:04 oh man 23:30:27 i had a cool implementation of a prime number finder where i used the sum of all primes 23:30:40 jordyd: btw, looking at number three, pay attention to the order in which you list factors. 23:31:20 Should I use the deterministic or statistical profiler in SBCL? 23:31:26 finding the last element of a list is O(n) n=length of list, while finding the first element is O(1), usually faster than vector access. 23:33:44 Perhaps someone could point be to some documentation of the difference? 23:34:41 weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 23:35:18 tmh, wild guess: the `deterministic' profiler will tell you exactly how much time was spent in each part of a particular subset of the code you're running, whereas the statistical profiler will tell you approximately how much time was spent in any part of the code you're running (including the system's internals). 23:35:44 gigamonkey: hello 23:35:45 Juho Snellman's weblog has an entry from *2006* on the statistical profiler. Hmmm. 23:36:41 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BCDB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:37:25 Riastradh: The thing holding me back from the deterministic profiler is that I have to feed it function names that I'm interested in. That's actually not too bad, I can start with the main function I call and the functions in a loop, expand from there. I'm not really confident that I'll understand what I get from the statistical profiler. 23:37:46 Why aren't you confident that you'll understand what you get from the statistical profiler? 23:38:03 I'm not smart? 23:38:17 jordyd: another tip re: projecteuler + CL: I worked on many problems before I knew how to use ASDF, and I ended up with lots of duplications between various solutions. Learn about ASDF, and try to anticipate which parts of a solution to a problem will be useful when solving a future problem (prime factorization routines are an example), and then define ASDF systems for your "libraries". I'm actually tempted to go back and do that for 23:38:17 all my old solutions. 23:38:19 *Riastradh* blinks. 23:38:54 tmh: feed it function names? 23:38:56 Riastradh: I have an innate suspicion of statistics. I want the *real* measurement. 23:39:09 tmh: I wonder if we will get a profiling recompiler one day :) 23:39:16 tmh: that's not how it works 23:39:19 Xach: (sb-profile:profile &rest names) 23:39:23 p_l: -re-compiler? 23:39:44 Adlai: basically, recompile parts of program based on results from profiling 23:39:54 tmh: that's not the statistical profiler 23:40:00 tmh: it is named sb-sprof 23:40:13 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:40:18 tmh: sb-profile is the exact call profiler 23:40:19 p_l: couldn't you write one on top of any current profiling system? 23:40:21 Java does that dynamically, during program run (that's why Server VM is actually *very* fast) 23:40:33 Adlai: Well, I can kinda understand what your saying; I've already defined PRIMEP twice. :) 23:40:34 Xach: When I said feed it names, I was referring to the deterministic profiler. 23:40:46 "The thing holding me back from the deterministic profiler is that I have to feed it function names that I'm interested in." 23:40:47 Adlai: as for me, I'm far from skill necessary to write support from that :D 23:40:58 tmh, the information it gives you is fairly straightforward -- the number of times each procedure was on the stack when it was sampled, and the ratio of that to the number of samples. You don't need to be a statistician to make good use of this: it gives you a reasonable approximation of where to focus your energy on speeding things up. 23:41:09 jordyd: do you know about ASDF? it's fairly easy to use. 23:41:11 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:23 Adlai: There's some support for profile-guided optimization in recent GCC, so I could do that with ECL, but not with SBCL, not yet at least 23:42:05 how usable is ECL? I looked into it a while back, got some linking errors installing it, and gave up... 23:42:34 Adlai: I knew the name, but not really what it does. From context I'm guessing it's some sort of package management for LISP. 23:42:43 minion: asdf for jordyd 23:42:44 jordyd: direct your attention towards asdf: asdf is Another System Definition Facility. http://www.cliki.net/asdf 23:43:00 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:43:12 The docs are clear, for simple usage at least, so I have no qualms about a blatant RTFM :) 23:43:21 Adlai: Thanks. 23:43:24 Riastradh: So, as a first cut, use the statistical profiler, then if you need more info, the deterministic? 23:43:35 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:43:39 tmh: fwiw, i have never ever used the deterministic profiler. 23:43:46 tmh: sprof suffices 23:44:06 jordyd: which CL are you using? 23:44:17 Adlai: SBCL 23:44:17 tmh, personally I've only ever used the statistical profiler. 23:45:09 jordyd: ok, you don't need to worry about setting up asdf. Just read about how to use it. 23:45:41 Adlai: afaik it works, but I haven't written anything substantial to test it out. What I liked is that it had properly compiled and started with MSVC with threads and unicode :-) 23:45:43 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-152-32.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:53 Note that the statistical profiler has support for deterministic call-counts if you're into that sort of thing> :) 23:46:00 Xach, Riastradh: What is the sampling frequency? The functions executes for 35 seconds, I'd like it to profile the entire time. 23:46:16 *sample-interval* 23:46:41 Adlai: OK. 23:47:21 Gah! "Don't know how to REQUIRE SB-PROF." 23:47:38 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host185.190-137-186.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:47:42 p_l: MSVC? 23:47:52 tmh: SB-SPROF, I think 23:47:58 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:48:25 S for Statistical 23:48:50 Adlai: That's the error I'm getting. What have they done in the SBCL RPM package in EPEL? 23:49:08 Adlai: to be exact it was Microsoft C/C++ compiler, cl.exe 23:50:07 Oh, how do I keep missing the S? 23:50:13 tmh: I'm all about the bleeding edge... I'd recommend that you use that package to compile a checkout of the SBCL source. 23:50:32 Or learn to read and type. :-) 23:50:47 Come-on, I can't read, you expect me to compile from source? 23:52:07 yeah, I guess using most package managers nowadays just consists of clicking buttons. 23:52:24 *Adlai* shakes his head at "Add/Remove Programs" in Ubuntu Jaunty... 23:52:41 Tordek [n=tordek@host203.190-137-197.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 23:53:12 Adlai: Actually, I got so fed up with the RHEL interface that I installed extra yum tools and forced myself to learn it. I always seem to end up back on the commandline. 23:53:17 http://foobiebletch.wordpress.com/2009/08/12/toadstool-release-0-4/ 23:53:20 :) 23:54:00 using clbuild is as easy as using a package manager 23:54:17 also for lisp I would recommend against using any of the distro packages. :) 23:54:55 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:56:07 Dawgmatix_: I'm becoming an old fuddy-duddy. I don't update unless I'm forced to by security or have a good reason, like a bug fix or new feature that I actually need. 23:56:23 coderdad_ [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:34 tmh: there's always the need for speed... 23:56:37 thats true. but we need some blood on the bleeding edge 23:56:37 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:56:40 ;) 23:56:52 after all, that's why we use CL, right? Because we like speeeedy code. 23:57:00 (just kidding... but not really) 23:57:32 i dont mind my code being slow, gives me chance to get a coffee break 23:57:53 i remember the days when waiting half an afternoon for the renders to finish was an acceptable overhead :D 23:58:28 ZabaQ [n=johnc@host81-156-64-2.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:59:04 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 23:59:32 Well, a 35 second model generation in CL compared to a 50min analysis in the commercial solver is not unacceptable, but I have plans for extending the generation code and this is also a good reason to learn the profiler. 23:59:39 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]