00:01:39 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:02:04 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has joined #lisp 00:02:12 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 00:02:27 any postmodern users in here ? 00:03:34 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1724.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:03:55 no, just good ol' lisp users 00:04:06 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:04:10 benny [n=benny@i577A1724.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:04:27 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has quit [No route to host] 00:04:35 Hey fe[nl]ix 00:04:44 hi luis 00:04:56 fe[nl]ix: we should meet up again this year. :) 00:05:17 so I read ^_^ 00:05:40 is there a meetup coming up ? 00:05:44 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:05:49 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:49 fe[nl]ix: have you picked an hotel yet? 00:05:53 Dawgmatix_: weitz.de/eclm2009 00:06:02 luis: the conference hotel, 120/night 00:06:07 ahh, too broke to travel to europe :) 00:06:10 *sigh* 00:06:35 I'm guessing they don't offer student discounts. 00:06:45 don't think so 00:06:53 never hurts to try ;) 00:07:34 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:08:49 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.2.13] has joined #lisp 00:09:09 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:04 Surely there's an Ibis or something in Hamburg. 00:10:29 I am trying to get a dedicated server and the vendor doesn't have slackware; between Debian4, Gentoo2008, Centos and Fedora Core, which one is the most lisp friendly while at the same time less pain to secure down? I decided against Ubuntu because it would take me longer to remove the eye-candy 00:10:40 my only experience with Ubuntu being in netbooks, not servers. 00:10:42 *p_l* just kicked out his ECLM plans 00:11:25 luis: http://tinyurl.com/nwvy6g 00:11:42 fusss: a server doesn't have eye candy. 00:11:49 fusss: well, you can go with Gentoo with hardened patches, I guess. CentOS is basically free variant of RHEL, Fedora is the "desktop" side, Debian is Debian 00:11:56 fusss: i use debian on my server. works fine. 00:12:25 Gentoo has a lot of lisp packages, but they are mostly very dated. 00:12:31 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:12:56 p_l: except that hardening patches are good for securing apache&co. while breaking pretty much all CL implementations except for abcl 00:13:06 illuminati1113: not in the lisp overlay 00:13:33 fe[nl]ix: gotta pick something nearby. I'm terrified of taxi drivers. ;-) 00:13:45 hahaha 00:13:55 fe[nl]ix: still, Gentoo is quite easy to augment to fit your own security system (and you don't need to load all those disruptive patches) 00:14:31 luis: after the ones we ran into in coimbra, I'd expect that :D 00:14:31 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:14:32 Xach: cheers for the vote up 00:14:48 i have linuxes that can't be managed with a text editor 00:14:55 and hated them 00:15:17 fe[nl]ix: I don't remember well, did we get into trouble with them? 00:15:19 fusss: reminds me of cpanel. Oh the horror 00:15:53 stepnem_ [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:20 it's more like RPM that I hate 00:16:36 luis: we were about to have an accident while entering a roundabout 00:17:13 -!- stepnem_ is now known as stepnem 00:17:29 fe[nl]ix: oh yes, I didn't remember I was with you that time. I have a driver's license now and that roundabout still gives me the chills when I pass by. 00:17:41 :D 00:18:15 fusss: never heard of a linux like that 00:20:00 Xach: I still have the keys to a server abandoned in a datacenter somewhere in texas; redhat 5, requires a reboot to upgrade it; ancient libc. redhat abandoned the RPM mirror for updating the packages. They broke RPM file compatiblity. Mirrors dropped the package signatures and hashes, etc. It would take a physical visit to bring it up to the ages. 00:20:45 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit ["upgrade reboot"] 00:21:47 *fusss* would have been happy with his linode if it wasn't for regulations and compliances 00:22:15 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:17 look at this crap http://www.datapipe.com/Compliance_Solutions.aspx 00:25:17 holy crap - just searched on google and turns out that cltl3 wasnt a complete joke :) 00:25:42 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 00:26:44 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has left #lisp 00:26:48 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 00:26:57 -!- rouslan_ [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:28:16 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-23-90.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:29:10 luis: http://tinyurl.com/nwlz2d has pretty low prices(for hamburg) and is only ~0.5Km from the conference site 00:29:58 -!- konr|away [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Client Quit] 00:30:14 "Sorry, this hotel has no rooms available for the dates of your stay." 00:31:11 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.126] has joined #lisp 00:31:22 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 00:31:46 luis: interesting. if you select checkout date the 14th, it has rooms available 00:33:35 you could try www.couchsurfing.com 00:33:37 the nearby Ibis is also 100/night, might as well stay in the conference hotel... 00:34:50 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:21 -!- asksol [n=ask@122.242.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:38:00 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-53-170.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:43:45 -!- jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.165] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:44:01 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 00:48:05 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.126] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:48:32 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:50:14 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068146145.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:33 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 00:56:03 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-188-19.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:00:30 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-148-0-83.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:16 neat. google docs now does "Forms"; did they just take the database online? 01:01:23 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-148-0-83.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:01:46 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 01:01:52 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-148-0-83.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:47 -!- slyrus_ 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joined #lisp 01:11:39 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 01:11:39 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:39 lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 01:11:39 Orest^bnc [n=Orest@hates-script-kiddies.ath.cx] has joined #lisp 01:11:39 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:00 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-148-0-83.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:12:00 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:12:30 rares__ [n=rares@130.13.182.140] has joined #lisp 01:13:21 -!- rares__ [n=rares@130.13.182.140] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:13:24 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 01:13:50 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:13:53 git clone git://git.xach.com/skippy.gitgit clone git://git.xach.com/skippy.git 01:13:53 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 01:13:58 fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly 01:14:02 :( 01:14:10 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-148-0-83.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:18 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:14:21 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 01:14:47 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:14:49 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 01:14:51 rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 01:15:05 ok, i will try to fix that 01:15:13 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:15:17 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 01:15:22 :) 01:15:28 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:15:35 how about now? 01:15:43 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:15:47 happiness. 01:15:49 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 01:16:13 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:16:16 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 01:16:20 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 01:16:20 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 01:16:24 Though my tarballs had more history than your repository. ;) 01:16:41 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:16:43 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 01:16:44 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:16:49 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:17:19 history schmistory 01:18:22 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 01:18:23 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@wsip-70-184-159-102.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:21:53 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.126] has joined #lisp 01:21:56 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:22:39 somehow I thought you would have a CVS repo that could be converted... 01:24:15 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:50 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 01:26:22 too much work 01:26:28 scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-70-51.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:40 could you give me a tarball of cvsroot? 01:26:57 I'd be happy to do the conversion. 01:27:39 why? 01:28:23 'cause I like history? 01:28:40 You don't have to. 01:28:49 i'm not inclined, sorry. 01:28:53 ok. 01:32:32 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f051106101.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:32:38 prxq [n=mommer@f051066011.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 01:33:20 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:30 http://common-lisp.net/gitweb also has mirrors for a few external projects 01:34:48 xach's, kmr's and slyrus's 01:37:04 thanks for the link; I didn't know about it. 01:40:58 -!- kazoozoo is now known as kuhzoo 01:41:14 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:44:03 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 01:46:13 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.126] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:46:37 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068146145.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:46:39 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068146145.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:00 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:52:34 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 01:56:18 -!- pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 01:56:33 kmels [n=kmels@67.214.34.220] has joined #lisp 02:03:11 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068146145.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:03:36 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068146145.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:06 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:04:32 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:06:01 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:23 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.220.116] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 02:07:45 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:09:34 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:36 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:11:08 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:13:37 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:09 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068146145.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:16:11 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068146145.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:35 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:18:48 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:18 -!- kmels [n=kmels@67.214.34.220] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:20:24 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 02:25:09 gonzojive [n=red@c-67-188-6-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:05 This is a bit of an odd question: how do you delete a generic function? 02:29:22 would you just use fmakunbound? 02:30:33 Aldai: seems to work for me. 02:31:49 Adlai: yeah, that's how it's done. 02:32:37 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:32:49 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["A way a lone a last a loved a long the..."] 02:34:22 Doesn't that leave behind a generic fn object though? 02:34:43 the garbage collector should deal with that 02:34:53 hm. 02:34:58 -!- Fixedsys is now known as afddljk 02:35:42 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:01 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:39:36 afddljk2 [n=user7994@189-19-117-32.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 02:40:50 -!- xenosoz2 is now known as xenosoz 02:42:49 then how do you delete a method? 02:43:11 MOP has remove-method or some such, IIRC 02:43:32 yes. 02:43:53 fusss: CLHS has remove-method and find method, which you can use to delete methods. 02:44:15 there is also remove-direct-method 02:44:16 I was just wondering whether there was some equivalent for the generics. 02:44:40 LW has "right click, undefine" :-) 02:44:42 http://www.lisp.org/mop/dictionary.html#remove-method 02:44:47 remove-direct-method? is that in AMOP? 02:45:11 I'd assume both are mentioned in AMOP. 02:45:13 *schme* looks. 02:45:51 p.229 02:46:01 and p.227 02:46:25 horse, meet mouth http://www.lisp.org/mop/dictionary.html 02:46:44 inspect the generic function in slime, click [remove method] 02:46:53 remove-direct-method is called by remove-method whenever a method is removed from a generic function, it says. 02:46:58 logBot1771 [n=logBot@59.92.172.19] has joined #lisp 02:47:25 thanks. 02:48:33 btw, what are people's take on security and objects? I am kludging together basic ACLs for some CLOS objects using owner-id and group-id slots. basically secure-class metaclass 02:48:50 -!- ceineke_ is now known as sledge 02:49:02 Why? 02:49:13 gugamilare [n=gugamila@201-75-226-147-am.cpe.vivax.com.br] has joined #lisp 02:49:16 I have never dreamed of doing anything of the sort (: 02:49:43 an elaborate nifty hack under the guise or "work" :-P 02:49:44 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068146145.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:49:46 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068146145.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:09 Do you create users in your lisp or what is the plan? 02:50:25 yes, each use is a CLOS object 02:50:58 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-148-0-83.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:51:13 I store the user-id on a server-side session upon login, and as they move around, various objects are deserialized and presented to them 02:51:44 -!- gugamilare [n=gugamila@201-75-226-147-am.cpe.vivax.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:52:23 How do you prevent someone from just loading up some other object? 02:53:08 security is implemented in the rendering 02:53:41 you can load an object by manipulating the URL, but if your user id doesn't have the right permission bits you're shown an empty form 02:54:09 oh. 02:54:12 I was thinking from SLIME. 02:54:12 -!- afddljk [n=user7994@189-19-115-60.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:54:23 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:54:37 huh? no, it's teh web 02:54:38 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-70-51.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:54:43 right ok. No idea there. 02:55:33 -!- afddljk2 is now known as Tongara 02:56:04 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.195.4] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:57:14 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.126] has joined #lisp 02:59:55 -!- Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:08:40 ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:55 -!- xenosoz [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:12:15 -!- lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-17-30.dynamic.amis.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:12:35 xenosoz [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has joined #lisp 03:12:39 lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-17-30.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:19 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068146145.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:14:22 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-12-116.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 03:15:04 mason [n=user@192.108.16.211] has joined #lisp 03:15:48 sohail|laptop [n=sohail@d207-81-121-15.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:53 slava, ping 03:16:20 ot question, cna I msg u 03:17:07 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-20-43.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:22:53 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["leaving"] 03:23:05 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 03:24:56 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:03 trsh [n=chat@93-141-64-45.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 03:26:42 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:27:22 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:27:24 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-127-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:46 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has joined #lisp 03:29:25 -!- nuntius [n=nuntius@c-71-232-15-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12"] 03:33:03 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:33:05 kmels [n=kmels@67.214.34.220] has joined #lisp 03:33:16 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:24 -!- keithr [n=user@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:42:15 keithr [n=user@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:46 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 03:48:31 krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-59-207.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 03:48:40 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-12-116.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:48:53 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:40 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:00:03 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:01:17 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-67-188-6-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:01:44 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has joined #lisp 04:03:41 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:08 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:02 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 04:08:57 mogunus [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:59 robbrit [n=rob@modemcable171.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 04:10:13 -!- mogunus [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:13:57 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:34 -!- kmels [n=kmels@67.214.34.220] has quit [] 04:16:39 mogunus [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:44 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-211-21.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:18 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 04:20:06 would be nice if function-lambda-expression returned the function argument signature 04:20:40 I need to interrogate function object for reflective/debugging purposes 04:21:16 if f-l-e did that, one could generate documentation at runtime; from function argument and docstrings alone 04:22:31 Um, it appears to do so in sbcl and in clisp, at least some of the time. 04:22:48 (nth-value 2 (function-lambda-expression (lambda (a b) (+ a b)))) <- What does this do for you in sbcl? 04:23:04 LW here 04:24:03 works for interpreted functions 04:24:31 (function-lambda-expression (compile nil (lambda (a b) (+ a b)))) == (value nil nil) 04:25:15 Then you're back to hijacking defun :) 04:25:17 -!- robbrit [n=rob@modemcable171.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 04:25:49 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 04:28:38 kmels [n=kmels@67.214.34.220] has joined #lisp 04:28:42 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Client Quit] 04:29:01 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 04:32:00 nice! admin panel now generated from database tables :-) 04:32:01 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 04:33:17 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-211-21.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:33:41 fusss pasted "the ugliest hack of all hacks" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84965 04:34:43 -!- logBot1771 [n=logBot@59.92.172.19] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:35:12 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 04:35:17 for each database table, there is a an /admin/table-name link which lists all the records. and each instance/record, there is an /admin/table-name/id page where the admin can freely edit 04:36:27 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-208-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:29 with sufficient CSS and javascript, I can even call this "django-like" 04:37:22 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 04:38:15 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.126] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:40:37 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:43:38 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:43:46 Hmm, I'm not very happy with how CL handles lexical dynamic variable introduction. 04:43:51 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:44 (locally (declare (special a b c)) ...) is pretty horrible. 04:45:42 And let doesn't work for introduction without rebinding. 04:47:01 Wombatzus [n=wombatzu@adsl-67-124-148-26.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:47:15 Good morning. 04:55:30 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:56:26 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:56:41 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:49 hello all. 04:56:56 Is there a way to unbind a slot? 04:57:11 logBot1731 [n=logBot@59.92.143.27] has joined #lisp 04:57:14 i.e. return it to an unbound state 04:57:47 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:58:46 Don't think so. Why would you want to do that? 04:58:59 good morning, beach! 04:59:06 hey tic. 04:59:27 beach, I might have found a way to slap Vim into submission. :-) 04:59:46 tic: Great! What kind of submission are we talking about here? 05:00:10 Jason_0993 [n=thot@203-73-249-80.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has joined #lisp 05:00:37 beach, a tiny, tiny slap, but with great effect: the ability to use functions written in Lisp where Vim expects functions written in Vimscript. 05:01:02 beach, by harnessing the magic power of wrapper functions and a small macro. :) 05:02:08 See if I can grab Climacs and do something useful with that some day though, Vim's still vim (= C) in all its uglyness. 05:02:12 tic: That's great progress! 05:02:55 at the same time, I feel stupid not for immediately realizing I could do this. But let's not dwell. 05:03:25 Yeah, those things happen. Don't worry about it. 05:03:30 *tic* continues with work: fixing customer bugs in archaic code bases. 05:03:34 Nah, I don't. I'm pleased. :-) 05:04:29 @beach: I'm doing this thing where an unbound slot triggers a transparent database fetch 05:04:46 -!- Jason_0993 [n=thot@203-73-249-80.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has left #lisp 05:04:49 @beach: and I'd like to be able to "trim down" on my data set without junking all the objects. 05:05:47 Moe111: Could you use a particular value (as opposed to unbound) to trigger the fetch? 05:06:26 beach: I could, but it would be more elegant this way as it is the natural state of being when I first initialize a slot. 05:06:45 beach: if it's absolutely not possible, I will have to go with the nil approach 05:09:05 -!- Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:09:44 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 05:10:07 beach: purely academically, I wonder why there's no obvious/easy way to unbind a variable. One would think it would be something allowed, given that unintern exists 05:10:28 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 05:11:09 -!- sohail|laptop [n=sohail@d207-81-121-15.bchsia.telus.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:11:12 clhs makunbound 05:11:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_makunb.htm 05:11:54 Moe111: see this URL, but it only works on symbols. 05:12:45 beach: interesting. 05:13:21 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@76.90.175.82] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:14:51 _q121311 [n=thot@203-73-249-80.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has joined #lisp 05:15:13 beach: clhs slot-makeunbound 05:15:42 beach: I said interesting because I see it in the clhs, but it doesn't seem to be available in sbcl 05:15:51 it exists indeed 05:15:55 clhs slot-makunbound 05:15:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_slt_ma.htm 05:16:03 I learned something new. 05:16:22 any idea as to where this is hiding in SBCL? 05:16:35 I am pretty sure it exists. 05:16:53 Moe111: There is no "e" in makunbound. 05:17:09 beach: boom =) 05:17:14 -!- logBot1731 [n=logBot@59.92.143.27] has quit [Success] 05:17:17 beach: yes it exists. 05:17:20 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-208-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:17:28 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:18:10 Sorry for the confusion! I never use these because unboundness usually indicates an error. Thus, I didn't know about slot-makunbound. 05:19:16 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 05:19:19 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-223-76.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:41 beach: no problem. we found the answer. 05:19:44 beach: thanks! 05:19:53 Moe111: No problem. 05:22:11 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:25:48 I gotta say, Lisp is one impressive language. I'm a relative newcomer, but I'm just amazed at the difference in thinking of all of my programming in lisp 05:26:18 Moe111: Yeah, it is a very nice language. 05:27:29 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-16-171.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 05:28:31 we kind of like it 05:28:39 -!- krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-59-207.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:28:51 Moe111: I think of it (and often describe it) as a language that has been pushed as far as possible without sacrificing performance (i.e. the possibility of writing an efficient compiler). 05:29:25 beach: that's an interesting way to look at it. 05:30:01 Moe111: Most languages, like Java etc, didn't go far enough, and thus contain arbitrary restrictions that are very irritating to a Lisp programmer, and others, like Python, went too far, making it virtually impossible to ever write a good compiler. 05:30:36 beach: the second argument will be challenged, hopefully soon :) 05:30:46 Yeah, I may be wrong about Python. 05:31:01 beach: the thing about those languages (like java) is that they are pretty hopeless design wise to begin with. (this coming from a guy who used to defend C++ to the nail) 05:31:51 I think that the problem is that C++ and the ilk all tried to be good back in the day, when lisp was clearly too slow. Now that things have come around, all those compromises they made back then suddenly are useless now. 05:31:57 and lisp shines because of its backbone. 05:32:11 Moe111: Right. I can understand the reason for C++, i.e., improve the lives of C programmers without making them all re-learn everything. 05:32:13 python and ruby are nice allright. they are just not expressive enough to get rid of repeating code 05:32:21 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.207.6] has joined #lisp 05:33:04 python programmers tend to repeat themselves where lisp programmer merely uses a macro 05:33:10 guaqua: tell me about that. I'm writing a lisp based webserver, and it auto generates setter getter functions by querying the database at compile time (through macros) 05:33:12 Moe111: Yes, though, some of those compromises we knew were not justified even back then. 05:33:15 it is heaven. 05:33:16 and i'm not even going into java :) 05:33:27 hah 05:33:37 Moe111: you could do a lot of that in python, too 05:33:57 eval! 05:33:59 perhaps. But you tell me: is python as good as lisp? 05:34:02 (or just metaclasses) 05:34:11 Moe111, define "good" 05:34:36 well, the fact that I can do this: (clsql:query (eval (append `(format nil ,command) (loop for i upto (1- (length args)) collect "NULL")))) 05:34:45 it's a kind of expressiveness that I can 05:34:50 't imagine doing in another language. 05:34:54 metaclasses would be the way. it's just undiscovered territory, mostly. and quite a few would think of it as un-pythonic.... 05:34:57 especially not in an imperative language 05:35:14 (is python imperative btw?) 05:35:27 Moe111: I would say so yes. 05:35:29 Moe111: good and bad. it all depends 05:35:31 about as imperative as Lisp. 05:36:03 well, maybe in another life I'll dable in Python. I can learn only so many new languages at once =) 05:36:19 Learning Lisp first is a wise choice. Wish I had done the same. 05:36:40 I learned lisp a long time ago at univeristy. I'm relearning professionally now. Two different worlds 05:36:47 if you need to quickly do a _working_ and easily portable script, python is superior. also the libraries to do system-scripting are nicely standardized and with some exceptions, probably best there are 05:36:56 professional and academic programming are as far apart as 05:37:00 but for everything else, i guess there's lisp :) 05:37:03 guaqua, indeed. 05:37:34 guaqua, although, that's really just about library availability. Lisp has the potential to be much better suited for this than Python. 05:37:34 Moe111: Depends on your university. I take it you didn't learn Lisp here in Bordeaux? 05:37:46 I actually learned at Nice 05:37:56 univ 05:38:03 Moe111: Really? When was that? 05:38:19 they taught us algorithmics.... (I was there in 98) 05:38:45 Hmm. I see. Most Lisp-based courses teach it the way it was some 30 years ago. 05:38:55 algo is fine and dandy, but it took me a decade to come to understand why lisp will beat a language like C/C++ to a pulp as far as professional work is concerned. 05:38:56 This is not the case in Bordeaux. 05:39:18 It is never too late! 05:39:23 you guys do practical applications? 05:39:35 minion: tell Moe111 about Gsharp! 05:39:36 Moe111: direct your attention towards Gsharp: Gsharp is a graphical, interactive score editing application for standard Music notation. http://www.cliki.net/Gsharp 05:39:40 like making a webserver that actually uses a production database etc? 05:40:06 Moe111: I don't do web programming, but some people here do. 05:40:14 minion: hunchentoot 05:40:15 hunchentoot: Hunchentoot is a web server written in Common Lisp and at the same time a toolkit for building dynamic websites. http://www.cliki.net/hunchentoot 05:40:18 Moe111: yep, web development here as well, using clsql as well 05:40:22 that was just an example. 05:40:30 well, maybe they done good at Bordeaux =) 05:41:00 minion: tell Moe111 about McCLIM. 05:41:01 the thing is simply that academic and development worlds are different worlds, and I understand and respect that. Just like engineering and materials physics are different disciplines 05:41:01 Moe111: please look at McCLIM: McCLIM is Mike McDonald's Free and portable implementation of CLIM, the Common Lisp ueber-Graphics Toolkit and a Common Lisp Library. http://www.cliki.net/McCLIM 05:43:09 there's an art to not letting a project overflow into a 100k+ line piece of unmaintainable crap. That art is a very fine one. And even Linus can screw it up. IMHO, it's an art that is not well understood and known, and is very hard to quantify and qualify. 05:43:44 I've learned it from "wise old men" I met on the job. hermit crabs. 05:43:53 I had to pry it out of them =) 05:43:59 such enthusiasm for the descipline 05:44:05 I love it. 05:44:12 Moe111: Where do you work? 05:44:21 I freelance. 05:44:28 but I'm in Montreal 05:45:08 Let's see! Who else is in Montreal? pkhuong maybe? 05:45:50 Moe111: There might even be local Lisp-group meetings there. 05:47:24 oh yah? 05:47:36 where can I found out? 05:47:46 jebus. it's late: found = find 05:48:04 heh, C# just added optional and keyword arguments :-P 05:48:27 Moe111: Here! :) 05:48:46 Moe111: another 6 or so people here are each independently developing webservers in lisp 05:48:58 heh. Well, I will check back from time to time. But for now, it is 1.48 am and my time for bed is nigh. 05:49:06 fusss: I'm using AllegroServe 05:49:11 for the time being that is. 05:49:24 alright 05:49:36 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 05:49:59 for now, my app has been focused on MSSQL -> freetds/unixodbc -> cl-sql -> datalayer -> application-layer 05:50:15 all of that works. so the final webserver layer is just a crust, really 05:50:21 but yeah, for now it's allegro 05:50:43 anyways gents. Time for bed. Take care now. 05:50:50 'night! 05:51:03 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [] 05:51:22 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 05:52:39 nite 05:52:58 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 05:59:53 -!- kmels [n=kmels@67.214.34.220] has quit [] 06:00:06 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-16-171.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:02:59 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:03:53 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:05:11 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:52 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:06:27 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:33 -!- mason [n=user@192.108.16.211] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:08:27 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:16:01 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:18:22 luis: here? 06:18:52 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:19:16 -!- xan_ is now known as xan 06:20:36 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:21:07 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 06:24:14 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:27:41 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 06:28:16 sohail|laptop [n=sohail@d207-81-121-15.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:49 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.126] has joined #lisp 06:40:15 girzel [n=user@61.51.239.176] has joined #lisp 06:40:25 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-223-76.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:44:59 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:46:21 daniel__ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:46:47 blah [n=cheese@123-243-79-139.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:48:16 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 06:48:22 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1724.versanet.de] has quit [No route to host] 06:48:33 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:49:09 -!- blah [n=cheese@123-243-79-139.tpgi.com.au] has left #lisp 06:49:35 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 06:53:29 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-55.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 06:55:33 -!- jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 06:59:01 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:59:11 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 07:00:40 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 07:03:55 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:04:04 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:05:15 kusanagi_1 [i=kusanagi@tx-71-2-119-218.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 07:06:39 good morning 07:06:58 'good morning. 07:07:00 hello mvilleneuve 07:07:10 hello kusanagi_1 07:07:13 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 07:07:15 hey beach. 07:07:37 hello 07:07:39 hello mrSpec :) 07:08:20 kusanagi_1: New here? Or just a new nick? 07:09:43 no, I am new. 07:09:53 kusanagi_1: what brings you to #lisp? 07:10:10 I am interested in learning Lisp, I keep hearing a lot of good things about it. 07:10:27 Right now I mainly use python, please don't hate me. 07:10:30 minion: Please tell kusanagi_1 about PCL! 07:10:31 kusanagi_1: have a look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 07:10:56 kusanagi_1: Many people here use Python, Java, and other languages in addition to Lisp. 07:11:19 thanks for the link, bookmarked! 07:11:35 ok, cool. 07:12:30 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:12:41 I am slowly learning more and more than people generally use more than one language, but forgive me, from what I have seen about lisp it kicks the hell out of python. 07:13:14 kusanagi_1: Many people here like to think so, yes. 07:13:15 and that's what really got me interested, that and the syntax. the syntax looks sick!.. a plus for me 07:13:46 and my dad use to talk to me about it, when I was learning basic.... 07:14:08 Your dad is lisp programmer? 07:15:16 no, he used a few languages, c, c++, visual basic and lisp, he liked lisp but his employer did not. 07:15:27 he's passed away now. 07:15:58 and autolisp. 07:16:03 for autocad. 07:16:09 kusanagi_1: Sorry to hear that! Sometimes it doesn't really matter what your employer likes or not; you can still use Lisp. 07:17:15 and dont tell your employer about it? 07:17:31 Not in a team setting. He wasn't a one man show, and lisp unfortunately was not the 'teams' 1st, 2nd or 3rd choice. 07:18:10 but hey, I don't have to work in a team, I am a one man show, so I can pick any language that I feel a fancy for. yeah! 07:18:25 kusanagi_1: The choice of a team could be different from that of the employer. I worked in a place where the team liked Lisp, but the employer had a rule that required us to use a different language. We didn't always respect the rule. 07:18:43 beach, I like your style. 07:18:50 Python has some very annoying things. 07:18:56 Zhivago, like? 07:19:04 kusanagi_1: Thanks! 07:19:07 Actually, think javascript is a nicer language. 07:19:18 Zhivago: you should just keep to lisp, really 07:19:20 I hate python's support for multicore cpu's 07:19:21 tic: Like broken lexical scoping. 07:19:28 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 07:19:30 guaqua: Why? 07:19:39 Zhivago, does it bite you very often, though? 07:19:57 tic: Yes, whenever I want a closure over a binding that I want to mutate. 07:19:59 i'd thought that such an insightful fellow would have figured it out by now 07:20:13 angerman [n=angerman@c192.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 07:20:20 guaqua: So that I can remain completely out of touch with the world? 07:20:22 Zhivago, sheesh, use a class already! :-) 07:20:48 tic: Yes, you can smash up your code like that, but I prefer closures. 07:20:49 no idea, it seems like that already 07:20:59 tic: Also, python's lack of namespaces is really, really annoying. 07:21:14 Zhivago, it's got modules though? 07:21:31 *fusss* goes on to invent a function he knows exists in at least 2 other places in his own project dependency 07:21:34 tic: Yeah, but the module names are in the same namespace as everything else. 07:21:47 Perhaps we could have a discussion without you guys bickering sometime? 07:21:53 (and namespaces in the Lisp sense as opposed to are only relevant if you have symbolic computer, e.g. Lisp., right?) 07:22:05 i'd prefer lisp over python talk here 07:22:34 tic: CL has a number of namespaces -- variables, functions, classes, types, etc. 07:22:52 tic: There's no reason that python shouldn't. 07:22:57 Zhivago, aha, now I understadn what you mean. Yup. 07:23:10 not common lisp, therefore inferior 07:24:02 Python identifiers are also single strings, so you can't use packages like CL does for independent name generation. 07:24:45 if I had a nickel for every (intern (substitute #\_ #\- (symbol-name lisp-name))) 07:25:22 I'm very happy that javascript, not python, dominates the web. 07:25:30 Javascript is a much lispier language. 07:25:50 now, something relevant. thank you 07:26:00 guaguq: Stop whining. 07:26:28 Javascript at least doesn't have python's allergy to function composition. 07:26:36 you just whined ten minutes about python's lack of this and that? 07:26:43 guaqua: Here is a hint: if you don't like a topic, then don't get involved in it. That way it will die when only one person is interested. 07:26:55 guaguq: Look up whining in the dictionary before you misuse it again. 07:27:38 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:29:21 kusanagi_1: Perhaps you can ask some intelligent question so that the discussion will again turn to something on topic? 07:30:04 Why not talk about array type upgrading? :) 07:30:26 Zhivago: That sounds fascinating :) 07:30:56 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.126] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:30:57 It's a nice example of CL stupidity. 07:31:05 prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:12 Zhivago: I think people like kusanagi_1 would be more interested in the virtues rather than the stupidities. 07:32:32 You could compare that with the cons type, which does it properly. 07:35:23 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@134.226.83.42] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:36:02 rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 07:37:30 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 07:37:58 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest58823 07:41:40 -!- imperian [i=imperian@41.174.64.65] has quit [] 07:41:52 imperian [n=noone@41.174.64.65] has joined #lisp 07:44:21 Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has joined #lisp 07:47:12 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has left #lisp 07:48:56 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:55:32 -!- Wombatzus [n=wombatzu@adsl-67-124-148-26.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["Going to bed"] 07:56:14 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:56:19 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:57:41 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.2.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:57:56 kusanagi_1: What are you planning to use Lisp for? 07:58:08 -!- sohail|laptop [n=sohail@d207-81-121-15.bchsia.telus.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:58:24 stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:35 Hmm, I wonder what would be an elegant way to decompose a parallel binding construct into its individual bindings for extensibility and then recompose them afterward? 08:03:30 You could decompose (let ((a b) (b a)) ...) into (plet (a b) (plet (b a) ...)), but that doesn't seem very elegant, although ... 08:12:56 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 08:15:22 Actually, that has a certain elegance to it and makes code generation a lot simpler. 08:15:39 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:15:44 -!- byshovets [n=byshovet@znu.edu.ua] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:19:10 vy [n=user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has joined #lisp 08:23:46 -!- thatdavidmiller [n=david@87-194-167-91.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 08:26:13 benny [n=benny@i577A1B4A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:27:07 <_3b> Zhivago: wouldn't that break on nested LETs? 08:27:32 Well, that's why you need to expand it to plet or somehting, rather than let. 08:28:05 <_3b> i mean you can't distinguish your example from (let ((a b)) (let ((b a)) ...)) once it is expanded to plet, without some delimiter 08:28:06 Ah, I see what you mean. Yes, you'd need to handle the boundary. 08:29:25 Alternately, you could use a (group ... (ungroup ...)) style of nested quoting, I guess. 08:31:32 Use let- to indicate that it merges with an immediately nested let or let- :) 08:34:22 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:35:01 thatdavidmiller [n=david@87-194-167-91.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:35:24 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:36:22 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.126] has joined #lisp 08:38:04 -!- stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:38:22 valvola [n=fabiovio@193.204.78.80] has joined #lisp 08:39:27 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 08:39:57 -!- carrl [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:40:08 carrl [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has joined #lisp 08:44:02 Better yet, expand it to lambda- :) 08:49:11 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 08:49:25 Zhivago: What are you working on? 08:51:11 beach: A lisp that fixes all of my complaints. 08:51:13 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.126] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:51:35 beach: Currently, dynamic-variables, now that I've added shared-variables. 08:52:07 I'm starting to think that baker was right, and that overloading let to support dynamic-variables was a terrible mistake. 08:53:44 If you use fluid-let or dlet or whatever, then you can also handle the case of scoping a dynamic-variable without binding it, which just doesn't work with let semantics. 08:54:23 e.g., (dlet (*print-case*) ...) could make sense to replace (locally (declare (special *print-case*)) ...) 08:54:46 Zhivago: Write a macro! \o/ 08:54:47 But you can't do the same with let if you want to allow let to be isomorphic with lambda. 08:54:51 *Adlai* ducks 08:56:16 Adlai: Not CL macros -- those are too crap. 08:56:38 Zhivago: what are you doing? 08:56:47 zhivago-lisp? 08:56:53 Something like that. 08:57:37 I use predicate based pattern transforms. 08:57:46 Ogedei [n=user@e178208029.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:58:03 (defrule lisp (atom ,name) where (stringp name) 08:58:03 (expand `(literal ,name))) 08:58:05 etc. 08:58:59 stassats: More accurately, two languages -- an implicit lisp and an explicit lisp. 08:59:16 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 09:02:54 would a semi-implicit one also be possible? 09:04:03 Well, implicit is naturally 'semi implicit', otherwise all you'd write would be (dwim). 09:04:23 But it's fairly easy to change what implicit things it assumes. 09:04:52 e.g., one example would be (+ a b), which in the top-level would become something like 09:05:56 (value (call (value (shared-function (literal +))) (value (shared-variable (literal a))) (value (shared-variable (literal b))))) 09:07:17 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:07:20 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:07:56 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 09:11:13 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:12:53 ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-190-240.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 09:16:53 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:16:55 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:19:39 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-159-222.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:26:58 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Success] 09:28:48 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:29:06 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 09:30:14 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 09:31:55 cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has joined #lisp 09:32:18 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:34:54 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:35:36 cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has joined #lisp 09:37:42 -!- johs_ is now known as johs 09:38:51 HG` [n=wells@xdsleq092.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:42:25 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-159-222.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:44:10 -!- antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has left #lisp 09:44:14 antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 09:49:00 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-179.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:49:17 maybe i should re-read the PCL chapter on conditions+restarts; i seem to be doing this a lot: (let ((condition)) (restart-case (handler-bind ((error (lambda (c) (setf condition c)))) (do-stuff)) ..restarts-referring-to-condition-here..)) .. but perhaps one of the restart/handler-bind/case thingies already do something like this? .. the point is that i need to know what the condition is/was in the restart bodies 09:53:17 you can pass arguments to conditions 09:53:24 erm, to restarts 09:53:33 I wouldn't pass the condition itself, just whatever information you need 09:53:33 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:54:14 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:55:37 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:55:53 yeah, might be doing something fundamentally wrong .. i'm not sure yet .. i have no idea what conditions might get thrown, so don't know what information i am to pass except the condition itself 09:57:19 well, i do have some information about where the condition occurred or originated from .. i could create an object that wrapped that information + the object together and pass that along ... 09:58:11 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has joined #lisp 09:59:58 hrk [n=hrk@acurwa002148.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:00:33 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:04:18 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:04:57 -!- Guest58823 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 10:05:42 lnostdal: if you have no idea what the condition is, why are you doing something with it in your restart? 10:05:42 -!- angerman [n=angerman@c192.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 10:07:32 hmm, in this restart, i'm not doing much with it except presenting it to the user in some way in a UI as feedback .. i might not want to do that always though, so there are other restarts at different levels in the call-stack 10:07:34 -!- kusanagi_1 [i=kusanagi@tx-71-2-119-218.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [] 10:08:21 i.e., when i have debugging enabled; i'd like for that condition to show up in slime instead 10:08:37 -!- Adlai is now known as Adlai-AWAY 10:08:40 maybe this is The Wrong Way to do this .. *shrug* :) 10:10:12 I think that sounds more debugger-related: so a better place for it might be in the debugger-hook 10:15:39 hm, yah .. *debugger-hook* is a dynamic global type variable .. so i can have it bound to several values at the same time wrt. different sub-systems .. right(?) .. 10:17:16 ..that might be a good idea; i'll try that .. heh .. thanks .. :) 10:20:53 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:22:17 frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@wafer.futurs.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 10:32:55 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 10:36:39 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-224.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:38:04 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 10:40:04 angerman [n=angerman@c197.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 10:41:36 -!- valvola [n=fabiovio@193.204.78.80] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:43:08 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:31 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 10:46:01 -!- Adlai-AWAY is now known as Adlai 10:46:30 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [] 10:47:35 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-24-191.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:53:02 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 10:54:28 OK, finished my CLIM application for helping me learn Vietnamese. Now I have to figure out how to make McCLIM display Vietnamese characters. 10:55:26 interesting definition of "finished" there :) 10:56:14 Xof: I guess so. It is displaying a text in one pane and dictionary entries corresponding to a word or a sequence of words under the cursor, in another pane. 10:56:31 Xof: So it works for ASCII text. 10:59:43 The problem being that it can't display Vietnamese, even if you knew Viatnammese, which you dont? 11:00:35 Sort of. 11:00:41 I think you have some work left.. 11:00:57 rendering of unicode characters in mcclim shouldn't be difficult. 11:00:59 Entering them using the keyboard, however... 11:01:00 Yeah, it takes years to learn a foreign language. 11:01:15 lichtblau: That I know how to do. 11:01:36 and not so much to forget it 11:01:50 lichtblau: What method would you use to make McCLIM render those characters? 11:01:51 What direction do you read vietnamese? 11:02:03 jthing: Left to right. 11:02:14 Ok, that helps. 11:02:23 cracki [n=cracki@44-116.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:02:28 Nm y, tôi hai mi ... 11:02:43 what a weird language! 11:02:48 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 11:03:16 stassats: Think of it as a tonal language written with latin characters with diacritical marks. 11:03:30 http://jlr.freeshell.org/data/mcclim/screenshots/2007-03-27-climacs-unicode-2.png <-- if georgian works, why not vietnamese, too? 11:04:13 lichtblau: Sure! How was that done? With some backend other than CLX? 11:04:18 I'm guessing that clim-freetype or clim-truetype _might_ be good enough in case gtkairo doesn't work for you, although the pango text layout features might be missing in that case. 11:04:46 I'll try clim-truetype. Thanks! 11:05:16 (yes, the screenshot above is with gtkairo. I wonder whether it would still work...) 11:05:36 I'll try it. 11:05:38 beach: unicode takes care of the internal representation, the rest is up to finding a supporing font. 11:06:12 lichtblau: would your problems with surrogates be removed if sbcl were actually careful not to generate surrogates "characters" when reading from unicode external formats? 11:06:18 jthing: REALLY? 11:06:36 Xof: hmmm, doesn't SBCL have that property already? 11:07:00 I'm not totally convinced that it does 11:07:06 mcclim shows unicode fine for me with mcclim-freetype 11:07:50 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 11:08:09 lichtblau: it can certainly be persuaded to _generate_ invalid utf8 11:08:17 * (string-to-octets (string #\ud800)) 11:08:17 #(237 160 128) 11:08:57 there goes my slime connection 11:09:00 -!- FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:09:06 whoops 11:09:37 It works with mcclim-truetype! Thanks guys! 11:10:23 beach: I never claimed it was rocket science. 11:11:46 lichtblau: Emacs 22 or 23 can use the Vietnamese VIQR input method. 11:12:01 climacs can't yet? 11:12:08 stassats: Nope :( 11:12:44 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:12:58 Actually, Emacs 21 can as well, but then it doesn't input the right code point for the result. 11:15:08 -!- girzel [n=user@61.51.239.176] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:16:04 How about a :CHARACTER-HAS-16-BITS *feature* in SBCL? Then luis can use surrogates in his SBCL cleanly, and in return, he must add 16 bit character support to babel, making his Allegro&LW users happy. 11:16:33 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:18:13 what what? But our characters don't have 16 bits 11:18:49 not yet, no, because that *feature* doesn't exist yet. I'm proposing its implementation! :-) 11:19:25 *luis* still thinks that using UTF-16 (instead of UCS-2, i.e. limiting oneself to the BMP) is a losing proposition. 11:19:31 -!- frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@wafer.futurs.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:19:40 in Allegro, LW, etc... 11:20:01 *lichtblau* was not entirely serious 11:20:09 frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@wafer.futurs.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 11:20:31 sorry, lichtblau, I'm only implementing things that no-one has ever asked for 11:20:54 There must some way to make the ACL/LW/SBCL/CCL/CLISP compatibility nightmare even worse. 11:21:32 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit ["leaving"] 11:21:51 implementing characters-as-combined-code-sequences, as Zhivago suggests, would do that quite well 11:22:55 char-code-limit being something like 2^168, and valid characters being /very/ sparse in that range 11:23:06 heh 11:24:01 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 11:26:04 CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.29.38] has joined #lisp 11:26:09 BTW, are you guys going to (and eclm overpriced-sunday-dinner)? 11:26:10 cl-ppcre problem reports would be interesting 11:27:06 I am not going to eclm 11:27:34 if I were, I would probably go to the dinner 11:27:42 though I would also consider it overpriced 11:27:54 (hope that helps!) 11:28:41 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-159-222.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:29:03 I'm told it's overpriced in order to recoup lost costs in the underpriced meeting fee. 11:29:12 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 11:29:29 that doesn't sound like a clever idea to me 11:29:36 but will there be a robot on stage? 11:30:24 Like in a Kraftwerk concert? 11:30:45 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:35:12 that's no way to describe pascal costanza 11:36:01 luis: I am going. 11:39:09 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-159-222.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:43:51 http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/app.png 11:47:46 Beef [n=Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 11:47:49 could be built into climacs? like general dictionary 11:49:07 The dictionary itself? 11:49:08 -!- alexsuraci is now known as alexsuraci|super 11:49:13 -!- alexsuraci|super is now known as alexsuraci|gone 11:49:38 It is very small at the moment because I have not found a good on-line dictionary that I can easily copy. 11:49:52 no, interface 11:50:31 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 11:51:21 stassats: I suppose it could, yes. 11:51:39 stassats: A syntax type for that should be easy. 11:52:16 or built-in into mcclim, to translate any word through-out 11:52:50 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:53:17 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 11:53:36 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:53:37 Is there still time to register for ECLM? 11:54:03 stassats: certainly, it would be easy in Climacs to render each word as a presentation with an associated dictionary entry the way I do in this application. 11:54:26 masm [n=masm@bl5-107-227.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 11:54:42 stassats: The thing with this application is that it looks up sequences of words as well because in Vietnamese, typically a sequence of 2-4 words corresponds to a single English word. 11:56:38 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:56:54 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 12:02:48 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:03:05 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 12:03:49 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 12:04:37 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.219.182] has joined #lisp 12:06:15 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-159-222.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:06:40 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:06 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6EB9F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:17 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:14:20 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@98.235.105.148] has joined #lisp 12:17:04 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.41.207] has joined #lisp 12:17:09 drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-224.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:18:34 girzel [n=user@123.121.227.175] has joined #lisp 12:19:10 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-241-91.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:20:51 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-159-222.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:21:28 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:22:09 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:24:43 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.207.6] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:24:55 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:25:02 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.207.6] has joined #lisp 12:27:05 novaburst [i=nova@sourcemage/mage/novaburst] has joined #lisp 12:27:13 Hi everybody. What is the current status of unicode support in sbcl? 12:27:33 lat: it seems to work well enough 12:29:52 limited to UTF-8 IO if you'r'e just using what SBCL provides, but babel provides other things 12:31:14 manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6FDE5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:11 rsynnott: can I msg you privately? 12:33:23 sbcl by itself is not limited to utf-8 io, there's what, tens of different external formats supported 12:33:42 -!- Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has quit [] 12:34:01 rsynnott: regarding tokyocabinet 12:36:25 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:10 lat, i think sbcl supports unicode-5.1 now 12:41:57 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.29.38] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:42:48 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 12:43:05 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-159-222.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:43:46 lat: you might want additional libraries for character database though and for recoding into additional formats, standard-character seems to be 21bit 12:44:15 p_l: how is the project coming? ;-) 12:44:30 *fusss* solved all clsql issues today; stupid mistake of mine 12:44:56 fusss: mine? badly, and I learned just yesterday that I have to do an emergency trip to Poland, I'm waiting now for details regarding dates 12:45:04 -!- sellout [n=greg@64.206.165.231] has quit [] 12:45:09 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-23-90.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:45:39 scottmaccal [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has joined #lisp 12:45:44 weren't you using Rails and Django, along with CodeIgniter for the admin panel and client-side python for the jquery<->mootools bridge? ;-) 12:45:49 nope 12:46:06 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:46:11 I am just taking the piss 12:46:24 Merb for WWW, DataMapper for ORM, and currently jquery for JS 12:46:28 emergency trip to poland, I would love one of those 12:46:51 -!- drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-224.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:46:52 get out! no seriously, #lisp ffs! 12:47:14 fusss: I doubt it - I'm traveling because I want to be there before my sister has her surgery 12:47:18 which part of dog-food don't you understand? ;-) 12:47:26 oh 12:47:27 sorry 12:47:37 fusss: Oh, I'm planning to replace Ruby with Lisp in future 12:47:57 the future was last wednesday 12:48:11 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 12:48:30 it's hell sometimes, but it's good when it all works at the end 12:48:41 manuel_____ [n=manuel@pD9E6D2A8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:44 *p_l* is also going to get additional heart diagnosis, due to possibility of having hereditary heart problems 12:49:32 hey can someone tell me why trying to install or load chunga would give me: Error: File #P"/Users/eric/.asdf-install-dir/systems/package.lisp not found? 12:49:34 as for lisp, I don't feel that I'm good enough with it right now :) 12:50:16 girzel: because you are using asdf-install 12:50:25 minion: tell girzel about clbuild 12:50:25 girzel: have a look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 12:50:34 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6EB9F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:50:48 girzel: chunga hardly has any dependencies; just get is from edi's site 12:51:09 i doubt girzel need chunga itself 12:51:13 I get the same error just downloading the package and sticking it in the appropriate directories 12:51:18 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:51:18 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.196.32] has joined #lisp 12:51:26 stassats: prolly hunchentoot 12:51:26 hunchentoot is dependent on it 12:51:29 yup 12:51:36 fusss: Maybe if i was better in reading code I would get it done with Lisp :D 12:51:48 so now can't load hunchentoot because it loads chunga, and when chunga loads... 12:52:23 girzel: just get clbuild... asdf-install is a PITA 12:52:37 girzel: and when chunga loads what? 12:52:48 it gives me that error! 12:53:00 (agreed about asdf-install, I'll look into clbuild) 12:53:17 girzel: but it's good to know how to do it manually yourself 12:53:22 Is there still time to register for ECLM? 12:53:28 I can paste a full traceback, but wanted to see if anyone had a pointer 12:53:45 (push #p"/path/to/chunga/" asdf:*central-registry*) 12:53:52 I did do it manually  asdf-install didn't work, so I downloaded the packaged and stuck it in site/ 12:54:15 do you have a symlink is systems/ as well? 12:54:29 that avoids the whole issue of pushing paths to central-registry 12:54:51 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:54:53 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdsleq092.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:55:14 well, seems like it's not a symlink 12:55:28 yes, asdf-install-dir/systems is in the *central-registry*, and the asd files are symlinked into there 12:55:31 so it searches package.lisp in systems 12:55:47 it's right next to all my other packages that load fine, which is why I'm mystified 12:56:07 girzel: ls -l /Users/eric/.asdf-install-dir/systems/chunga.asd 12:56:23 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:38 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:45 alright, good nite all 12:56:47 chunga.asd -> ../site/chunga-1.0.0/chunga.asd 12:56:47 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.41.207] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.13/2009073022]"] 12:57:30 all the actual packages are in asdf-install-dir/site, symlinks in system 12:57:31 and (truename "/Users/eric/.asdf-install-dir/systems/chunga.asd") ? 12:57:45 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:57:47 I just do manually whatever asfd-install does, or should have done, when it breaks 12:57:51 logBot0663 [n=logBot@59.92.133.35] has joined #lisp 12:59:21 #P"/Users/eric/.asdf-install-dir/site/chunga-1.0.0/chunga.asd" 13:00:04 and the last one: (asdf::resolve-symlinks "/Users/eric/.asdf-install-dir/systems/chunga.asd") 13:00:33 yup, same thing 13:00:48 I should say this happened when I upgraded ccl from 1.2 to 1.3 13:01:02 these libraries were installed and working beforehand 13:01:05 upgrade to 1.4? 13:01:15 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.196.32] has quit [] 13:01:34 It looked to me like there was only 1.3 for my architecture (ppc) 13:01:47 and did you update 1.3 from svn? 13:01:47 I'm on the svn trunk, that ought to be as good as it gets? 13:02:39 stassats: there's 1.4 already? 13:02:54 p_l: not released, but who cares? 13:03:04 hmm, I did a svn up from the release directory, not trunk 13:03:24 I'll piss off and re-install from trunk, and maybe that will solve it 13:03:24 girzel: did you (ccl:rebuild-ccl :full t) ? 13:03:31 thanks for messing with this 13:03:33 yes 13:03:45 ok, then try from trunk 13:04:39 will do 13:04:59 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:25 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:07:05 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6FDE5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 13:11:14 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 13:12:38 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 13:12:45 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:14:31 lat: SBCL has just recently increased its support for EBCDIC! 13:15:05 lol 13:15:07 is there any lisp dialect where something like: 13:15:11 so, it's enterprise-ready? 13:15:22 HG` [n=wells@xdsleq092.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:15:34 (defun test (expr) (let ((x 1) (y 2)) (eval expr))), would allow (test '(+ x y)) to give 3 as result 13:15:51 ? 13:15:53 smells like prog 13:15:58 clhs prog 13:15:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_prog_.htm 13:16:09 Xof: from auditors log, day 1: Good, connection is encrypted (...) Day X: Bad, connection wasn't encrypted, it was EBCDIC <--- this is supposedly a true account, told to me by IBM consultant... 13:16:11 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has left #lisp 13:16:43 p_l: the way it maps a-l to latin1 control characters is pretty neat 13:17:03 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 13:17:04 frozsyn: common-lisp if you declare x and y to be special 13:17:39 but that's not a really good way to go anyway 13:18:17 jdz, I don't really understand how I can use prog to do this 13:18:29 ljz mea 13:18:38 erh, jdz means progv 13:18:40 xristos, ok, let me try some special declaration then 13:18:50 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-179.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:03 something like (flet ((test (expr) (let ((x 1) (y 2)) (funcall expr x y)))) (test (lambda (x y) (+ x y)))) => 3 ;; is perhaps a better idea, frozsyn ? 13:19:07 stassats, I assume you think that macros are better for this task 13:19:15 pkhuong: yes, that's the one. 13:19:45 frozsyn: by saying that i assume you are not really good with macros 13:20:06 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-179.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 13:20:49 and remember: using eval is the wrong solution with 99.95% certainty 13:21:03 stassats, :) maybe, it just seems to me that macros a often used to create environment (or bindings or whatever better) 13:22:09 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:22:20 macros would work on data known at compile time, but i guess that's not what you want 13:22:28 jdz: I know that eval is often bad with its current semantic, that's why I was initially asking for the existence of another dialect 13:22:40 frozsyn: btw thats how emacs lisp works by default 13:22:48 stassats, you're right 13:22:54 eval is bad everywhere 13:23:33 lnostdal, thanks for your solution :) 13:23:45 frozsyn: what semantic are you referring to? the one that forces to keep binding names after compilation and forcing all values to be held on the heap? 13:23:55 lnostdal, it helps my brain, but is not what i'm looking for 13:24:19 jdz, something like this yeah 13:24:36 frozsyn: and you want an eval with those semantics? 13:24:49 (defun test (expr) (funcall (compile nil `(lambda () (let ((x 1) (y 2)) ,expr))))) 13:24:53 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:25:13 jdz, I was just thinking about the consequencies of such a semantic 13:25:15 (test '(+ x y)) => 3 13:25:49 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:59 r5rs eval 13:25:59 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_578 13:26:01 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #lisp 13:26:46 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-168-132-106.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:09 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 13:27:15 froydnj, using progv it could look like this i guess; (flet ((test (expr) (progv '(x y) '(1 2) (eval expr)))) (test '(+ x y))) => 3 13:27:22 errr .. i meant frozsyn 13:28:19 60s called, they want their progv back 13:28:23 it does seem like an odd thing to do though 13:28:35 lnostdal, thanks :) i don't think I can find better in CL 13:28:37 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.196.32] has joined #lisp 13:28:57 lnostdal: not much of a difference with (let ((x 1) (y2)) (declare (special x y)) 13:29:27 *Adlai* never really understood why you'd ever use progv -- can't you just use let + declare? 13:29:29 yeah, xristos 13:29:46 Adlai, progv alows you to do that at run-time 13:29:56 stassats, for the scheme semantic, it's close, but I was thinking about a way to never explicitly indicate the environment... but there is maybe some lil... impossibilities :P 13:30:07 Adlai, ...build up the names + bindings that is 13:30:15 Adlai, pretty crazy 13:30:25 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-159-222.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:31:27 so; (progv (list 'x 'y) (list 1 2) (eval expr)) 13:31:30 Adlai: I've only had occasion to use it once, and it was in a situation where I couldn't change the design to something more sane 13:31:44 antgreen [n=Anthony@CPE0013f7bcd3c0-CM0013f7bcd3bc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:32:06 -!- prip [n=_prip@host91-125-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:32:33 prip [n=_prip@host185-132-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:32:38 interesting. 13:33:25 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.196.32] has quit [Client Quit] 13:34:28 Last time I used progv was to restore dynamic bindings in delimited continuations. 13:34:28 clhs progv 13:34:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_progv.htm 13:34:44 the note on that page is a very good one I think :) 13:35:56 I was not making any distinction between progv and (let... declare) in my previous sentence 13:36:10 -!- [df] [n=df@bspencer.plus.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:36:20 [df] [n=df@bspencer.plus.com] has joined #lisp 13:36:54 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-179.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:19 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:37:49 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-224.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:39:20 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.207.6] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:39:59 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A770.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:40:18 ok, another question, not related at all. Let's say I want something similare to (defun test (a c) (setf (aref a (car c) (cadr c)) 5)) but that works for a 'c' list of arbitrary size 13:40:54 for the moment I use (eval `(setf (aref a ,@c) 5)), which is bad... 13:41:19 apply? 13:41:23 or, uh 13:41:42 clhs apply 13:41:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 13:42:02 apply does not work in a setf macro 13:42:03 clhs aref 13:42:04 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_aref.htm 13:42:36 -!- cracki [n=cracki@44-116.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 13:43:13 not macro; function 13:43:29 clhs 5.1.2.5 13:43:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_abe.htm 13:43:55 (flet ((test (a c) (setf (apply #'aref a c) 5))) (let ((a (make-array '(2 2)))) (test a '(1 1)) a)) => #2A((0 0) (0 5)) 13:43:56 -!- _q121311 [n=thot@203-73-249-80.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:43:58 or so 13:44:59 oh ok... perfect 13:45:28 yeah, works with setf as-a-place too .. it's very nice .. fdefinition type places also 13:45:42 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.196.32] has joined #lisp 13:45:43 I still have to work on my hyperspec searching technics 13:46:02 -!- thatdavidmiller [n=david@87-194-167-91.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 13:46:29 well, the link to section 5.1.2.5 is right there on apply page 13:47:12 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 13:47:23 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:48:12 -!- logBot0663 [n=logBot@59.92.133.35] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:49:40 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.196.32] has quit [Client Quit] 13:49:48 voidpointer [i=bd6fd10d@gateway/web/freenode/x-wkpndjzlmllxlscu] has joined #lisp 13:49:52 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net."] 13:49:55 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:00 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:50:32 jdz, argh... shame on me 13:51:27 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 13:51:31 -!- voidpointer [i=bd6fd10d@gateway/web/freenode/x-wkpndjzlmllxlscu] has quit [Client Quit] 13:51:34 Greetings. 13:52:22 Could you tell me what's wrong? when I use C-c RET I got "error in process filter: Symbol's function definition is void: indent-tabs-mode" :S 13:53:03 mrSpec: go to the scratch buffer, type indent-tabs-mode, and then hit C-j 13:54:32 what does it say? 13:54:34 ok I have indent-tabs-mode t 13:55:32 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 13:55:38 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:55:46 but C-c RET still isn't working 13:56:01 lichtblau: are you about? 13:56:39 malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:57:17 Adlai: We just received email that deadline for registration is August 15. 13:57:24 mrSpec: you are talking about slime, right? 13:57:24 mrSpec: try putting in your .emacs this form: (setq indent-tabs-mode nil) 13:57:33 stassats yes 13:57:41 I got "error in process filter: Symbol's function definition is void: indent-tabs-mode" :S 13:57:52 Adlai: ok 13:57:55 that i saw 13:57:59 mrSpec: then put the cursor at the end of that form and hit C-x C-e to evaluate it 13:58:00 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 13:58:08 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has left #lisp 13:59:08 if it makes a difference, make sure to save your .emacs 13:59:09 mrSpec: get a backtrace 13:59:16 Xof: ? 13:59:56 stassats: how can I get it? 13:59:56 lichtblau: I'd be interested if a diff I have, to be more strict with utf-8, would fix your issues with surrogates in your xml test suites 14:00:16 mrSpec: M-: (setq debug-on-error t) 14:00:19 Adlai: hmm the same 14:00:33 mrSpec: are you using gnu emacs? 14:00:34 lichtblau: http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/utf-8-errors.diff 14:00:53 pkhuong: yes 14:01:01 ver. 23 14:03:02 ok got backtrace, I'll paste it 14:03:38 I think it would be important to get the encoding stuff right, so I applaud any patches in that regard. 14:03:39 The patch doesn't involve my concerns much, but then I don't feel that strongly about it anyway, my stake in all this isn't large. 14:03:55 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.196.32] has joined #lisp 14:04:02 mrSpec pasted "backtrace" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84981 14:04:29 As for the details of the patch, does it mean that well-formed sequences of surrogates would signal an error rather than being assembled and then encoded correctly in UTF-8? 14:04:37 mrSpec: annotate it with the value of lisp-mode-hook variable 14:05:07 -!- slackjaw [n=jolyonw@124-171-248-180.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:05:12 lichtblau: that's correct, because an (SBCL) string is not a (Unicode) sequence of characters 14:05:23 lichtblau: in SBCL, by definition, there are no well-formed sequences of surrogates 14:05:33 stassats: how can I read it's value? 14:05:56 mrSpec: look in your .emacs. 14:05:56 lichtblau: if this patch doesn't solve your specific problems with xml test suites, then I haven't understood what those problems are 14:05:58 it is in this backtrace? I'm using it first time 14:06:03 C-h v lisp-mode-hook 14:06:04 ah ok 14:06:14 -!- l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:06:20 I appreciate that the theoretical concerns over what a character is are distinct (but related) to those conformance suites 14:06:51 l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 14:06:55 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-216-196.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:58 mrSpec annotated #84981 "value" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84981#1 14:07:15 Well, the patch doesn't affect me because I don't use SBCL's external format support. 14:07:43 I'm thinking only in terms of Lisp strings and what they mean. 14:07:55 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:08:10 mrSpec: there it is 14:08:20 lichtblau: gah, ok. (Do you use babel, then?) 14:08:43 _p870969 [n=thot@203-73-249-80.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has joined #lisp 14:08:52 stassats: could you say something more, please? 14:09:07 mrSpec: you need to find what changes lisp-mode-hook 14:09:18 what adds the first lambda 14:09:50 hmm it can be one of emacs modes? 14:09:58 what _I_ think an SBCL string is is a sequence of SBCL characters, which have a one-to-one-and-onto correspondence with Unicode code-points 14:10:29 mrSpec: i doubt it 14:10:30 so, there is no notion in SBCL of surrogate pairs; there are only (SBCL) characters corresponding to Unicode surrogate codepoints 14:11:15 any (SBCL-using) code which tries to pair surrogates into other characters, other than for emitting octets, is doing something wrong 14:11:43 hmm stassats so what can change it? 14:12:33 your config? brain-damged emacs configurations from debian? some third party package? aliens? 14:13:00 I guess what I'm just gathering is that there are Lisp implementations where userland code has to deal with surrogate pairs itself -- is that right? 14:13:41 Okay. I think I understand that interpretation. It's reasonably easy to support using a #+sbcl. 14:13:50 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:14:03 "reasonably" meaning that it adds a third #+something case, which isn't too bad. 14:14:18 (and I guess I still don't understand what in your xml libraries / tests is triggering conformance issues) 14:14:37 Well, ECL will agree with you, at least. 14:14:49 ok. got it ;) 14:15:12 (sorry to keep on at you like this, but the chances of me understanding what's going on are much higher while all of this is at the front of my brain) 14:15:12 cxml has to implement its own external format emulation, so it has to understand what strings are made up of. 14:15:25 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:15:30 The reasons for this external format re-implementation are: 14:15:41 1. lack of (setf external-format) in the underlying implementations 14:15:57 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-168-132-106.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 14:16:08 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 14:16:14 2. lack of support for allegro/lw's 16 bit character stuff in babel 14:16:22 3. historical reasons, obviously 14:16:28 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has joined #lisp 14:17:13 But I agree with luis that the issues are academical and the free software world is probably better served by ignoring allegro. So perhaps I should take the stance already adopted by babel and cl-unicode and ignore these issues. 14:17:40 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 14:18:29 lichtblau: "LispWorks uses Unicode (UCS-2 encoding) internally in its representation of character objects." 14:18:49 I think that means that Lispworks is like SBCL (but only supports 16-bit characters) 14:18:51 UCS-2?? Why does *anyone* still use UCS-2? 14:19:04 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:19:47 3. historical reasons, obviously 14:20:16 Yes, but...surely LispWorks has been under development some time in the past decade, hasn't it? 14:20:42 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-168-132-106.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:45 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:20:49 kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 14:21:16 okay, so agreement has been reached. All hail luis, let's do as he says. 14:21:35 (Does that mean SBCL pathnames will adopt UTF-8b support?) 14:21:50 Riastradh: maybe no-one who has any money actually cares about unicode characters above #xffff 14:22:22 What, you mean Trekkies who want to write Lisp code to process all their Klingon text don't have gobs and gobs of dough? 14:22:32 :-) as I recall, Klingon is not in Unicode 14:22:53 it isn't; it was rejected 14:23:01 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:49 Riastradh: they presumably have priorities 14:24:14 (though isn't some fairly standard language like traditional chinese above #xffff? 14:24:51 as ISTR housel saying: it matters if the character for your name is in that range 14:24:58 mrSpec: google reveals http://parijatmishra.wordpress.com/tag/sbcl/ 14:25:45 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 14:25:55 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E46EEC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:14 mrSpec: or you already found where it was changed? 14:26:16 *lichtblau* 's software will have to process chinese documents starting early next year 14:26:42 lichtblau: traditional or simplified? 14:27:16 rsynnott: I have absolutely no idea. 14:27:38 you may hope they're in UTF-something and not one of the specialised representations inexplicably popular in countries with lots of characters 14:28:04 lichtblau: usually, if it's PRC, simplified, if hong kong, either, if taiwan or singapore traditional, I think 14:28:07 I think you mean `in Unicode', rsynnott. 14:28:50 there are a small number of compatibility cjk ideographs above #x10000 14:29:05 Riastradh: well, unicode isn't really an external representation... 14:29:31 other than that, there're linear-b, mathematical symbols, counting rods, dominos, mah-jongg tiles, tetragrams and greek instrumental notation symbols 14:29:43 heheh 14:29:54 No, but the UTF-n{be,le} are merely mappings between sequences of Unicode code points and sequences of octets. 14:29:56 Oh, there will be a lot more -- chinese has about 90k characters that haven't been put into the standard yet. :) 14:30:12 stassats`: no I didnt, I was eating. will take in few minutes. thanks 14:30:15 Fortunately they're all archaic or technical, so no-one much uses them. 14:31:04 oh, tell a lie, sorry, there are rather a lot of CJKs 14:31:06 Hmm, don't forget emoji, which are also in the pipeline :) 14:31:10 20000;;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;; 14:31:12 2A6D6;;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;; 14:31:18 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:31:45 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-179.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:32:26 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:55 hopefully unicode will ultimately be big enough ;) 14:35:35 rsynnott: so you would be able to use it? 14:35:59 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-246-37.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:08 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 14:36:14 stassats`: so that it doesn't run out of space for all the languages :) 14:37:19 languages are usually independent of scripts 14:37:53 IPA is the way to go 14:38:32 -!- angerman [n=angerman@c197.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 14:38:42 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:39:11 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-24-191.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 14:39:32 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:41:26 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:44:29 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-246-37.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 14:45:00 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:46:51 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 14:46:59 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:12 hmm, can anyone explain me why that doesn't work? (with aserve under sbcl) http://paste.lisp.org/display/84984 14:48:41 because you don't obey rules? 14:49:10 demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-077-070.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:34 maybe stassats`, which rules ? 14:50:06 you use aserve and didn't read its documentation? 14:50:16 Lycurgus [n=Ren@pool-71-186-170-81.bflony.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:29 Xof: there's also unofficial set of standards regarding languages that didn't get included into Unicode, which use area reserved for private extensions 14:50:40 acieroid: http://opensource.franz.com/aserve/htmlgen.html 14:50:54 I looked a that 14:51:16 now, read it 14:51:26 'k 14:51:28 (things like Klingon, Tolkien's languages and other) 14:51:34 Another odd question from the Adlai department: If I want to run an executable image that was compiled by 32-bit SBCL, what lib32 libraries do I need? (I'm on a 64-bit system) 14:51:42 I just looked at the code, sry :x 14:51:44 yango [n=yango@208.Red-212-170-49.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:55 p_l: it's also where Apple's little apple character lives :) 14:52:03 Adlai: linux? 14:52:05 Adlai: all libraries listed by ldd 14:52:06 particularly: "anything else - everything else is simply evaluated in the normal lisp way and the value thrown away." 14:52:23 ldd says the image isn't dynamically linked. 14:52:28 most linux distributions have a package which installs most of the main stuff 14:52:29 rsynnott: ofcourse 14:52:35 plus all that you're loading dynamically through ffi 14:52:42 Adlai: runtime, not image 14:52:56 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-216-196.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:53:10 rsynnott: i'm surprised how many fonts have that apple glyph in them. 14:53:13 Adlai: ldd32 `which sbcl` 14:53:18 rsynnott: i don't quite know why it's so widespread. 14:53:45 Xach: historically, most digitised fonts were created on macs, to be used primarily on macs 14:53:52 Adlai: But IIRC SBCL only requires basic linux runtime 14:53:58 p_l: "Command not found: ldd32" 14:54:01 (the whole desktop publishing industry is extremely mac-centric) 14:54:11 Adlai: what distro? 14:54:25 {uname -a} [Linux adlai-t400 2.6.30-ARCH #1 SMP PREEMPT Fri Jul 31 07:30:28 CEST 2009 x86_64 Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU P8600 @ 2.40GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux] 14:54:33 rsynnott: that has the ring of a just-so story 14:54:45 ah, ok. Works. 14:54:50 graphics period is mac centric 14:54:51 I just needed lib32-glibc 14:54:58 Adlai: what distro and why can't you use 64bit :-) 14:55:08 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:55:09 I'm not sure that's the reason, but it wouldn't be at all surprising 14:55:19 (and certainly the font business is mac-centric) 14:55:23 p_l: I'm trying to test an executable image sent to me by dto and it turns out that he has 32bit... 14:55:46 Adlai: and yes, lib32-glibc should be enough, SBCL is linked only with lib{c,m}, dload API and dynamic linker interpreter 14:56:15 some computing subcultures lean toward mac too like Ruby and Smalltalk 14:57:03 *p_l* is surprised seeing how he just executed a shared library 14:57:31 *stassats`* isn't surprised 14:57:46 Lycurgus: in general, I think since MacOS X a lot of programmers of unix-ish things are using macs 14:57:50 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-40-136.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:57:50 stassats`: I didn't know you could rig ELF shared objects to be executable 15:00:00 rsynnott, yes, and Ruby would be maybe moreso than Squeak except of course there's that special relationship between ST and the Mac. Almost anything with a pretended or actual "artistic flair" will favor the mac. Pretty much to whole graphics industry though. 15:00:09 *pkhuong* just realized why mandelbrot/SBCL parallelises badly on the shootout: :element-type :default isn't good for write-sequence of (unsigned-byte 8). 15:00:21 Lycurgus: part of Mac influence on Ruby might be related to Rails and Rails' parent company, which is mac-centric to the point of mac-faggotry (sorry for offending sensible mac users) 15:00:25 s/to/the/ 15:00:35 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-40-136.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:00:41 jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:00:51 mac fanboy will probably serve you better 15:01:05 or fangrrl 15:01:19 not a good environment for Java programmers, though ;) 15:01:27 kmels_ [n=kmels@190.148.206.126] has joined #lisp 15:02:04 *p_l* recalls seeing two macs in a publisher's office... one was lacking all bezels and both were gutted and probably in state of "never work again" xD 15:02:19 (apple condescended to release Java 1.6 only quite recently, and only for 64bit machines) 15:02:43 Though I might try to reuse those if I they can support MacIvory 15:03:09 -!- _p870969 [n=thot@203-73-249-80.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has left #lisp 15:03:14 maybe it's better to rescue snap4 sources 15:03:40 *Lycurgus* checks the sbcl arch matrix for osx 15:04:00 Lycurgus: it's there, and it's one of the better-supported platforms 15:04:05 has threads, and everything ;) 15:04:45 quel suprise, the best supported apparently 15:04:51 it has no kitten of death 15:04:51 *p_l* still thinks he would rather go with CCL on OSX :P 15:06:39 Lucia: why do you think "the best"? 15:07:01 damn 15:07:10 i meant Lycurgus 15:07:25 Lycurgus: nah, the two linux ones tend to be better supported 15:07:38 the mac one's threading at least used to be rather unstable 15:07:47 not sure if this is still the case; I mostly use CCL 15:08:48 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 15:08:51 ccl is what gnu CL is called now? 15:08:55 The precise garbage collector beats a conservative one 15:09:17 Lycurgus: no. 15:09:28 But I doesn't have the same quality type inference 15:09:29 clozure common lisp 15:09:34 Lycurgus: nope, clozure common lisp, used to be called openmcl 15:09:49 yes, see now 15:10:00 sbcl isn't conservative on ppc, is it? 15:10:01 name presumably changed due to the open-sourcing of MCL :) 15:10:16 (and possibly due to shifting of focus away from mac) 15:10:37 and porting to Windows and Linux.. 15:10:39 stassats`: nope, just buggy. 15:11:19 and yes, just stood out that in the matrix osx was only one with the latest, matrix prolly just not maintained for others 15:11:29 Can anyone recommend a CL library for dealing with RDF/XML? 15:11:37 there's a quite interesting discussion on the ccl website somewhere of how they ported their GC to work on ia32 15:11:50 cxml for xml 15:11:53 Lycurgus: the availability of fresh binaries is mostly meaningless. 15:11:57 mogunus: sxml 15:12:00 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 15:12:06 pkhuong: to whom? 15:12:13 pkhuong: it means a lot to me. 15:12:15 pkhuong, not if they work well 15:12:56 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:12:56 Xach: ISTM the vast majority of users let their package manager handle that, or build from source (often via clbuild). 15:13:23 I've been looking around, and everythign for RDF seems un-maintained and/or no longer available. 15:13:27 only implementation hackers or those with special needs want to build lisp 15:13:32 *stassats`* just bootstrapped once from a binary 15:13:33 pkhuong: Is your user sample taken from #lisp, or elsewhere? 15:13:43 Lycurgus: that's not true 15:13:47 cl-pdf is not unmaintainable.. 15:13:59 *Xach* built lisp more often when the binary didn't include sb-thread 15:14:13 Just not maintained.. 15:14:13 Xach: that's stil lthe case for the macos one, I think 15:14:17 I just want to make sure I don't duplicate a bunch of effort on top of one of the nice/current lisp XML libraries. 15:14:30 and no doubt there are people who want to deliberately get rid of sb-thread 15:14:42 Xach: people at the U outside #lisp all use their distro's package manager, or did so before switching to clbuild. 15:14:47 stassats`: in fact the problem is not that the values are thrown away, but I'd like to avoid typing :princ-safe to much, with a macro like that: http://paste.lisp.org/display/84985 15:14:52 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:15:02 stassats`, no not as a crisp fact, but the statement wasn't meant that way 15:15:35 -!- seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has left #lisp 15:15:41 *Lycurgus* tends to want to use SWI Prolog for RDF processing. 15:18:42 hmm but I don't need that in fact 15:18:55 *acieroid* said nothing 15:19:24 what RDF? Does anybody *need* RDF? 15:19:34 (yet) 15:19:48 no, my macro 15:20:08 gutenberg's catalog is available in RDF/xml 15:20:10 but yes I need it finally xD 15:20:30 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F226.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:48 magunus, thx, that's good to know 15:21:08 I'm going to download the whole thing and dump it into my toy lisp nlp programs. 15:21:10 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 15:21:37 http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Gutenberg:Feeds 15:21:41 project gutenberg is not that big 15:22:13 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.196.32] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:22:42 *p_l* likes comparison between Zip and BZ2 package sizes xD 15:22:45 no, only 30,000 ish books... but at least it's free 15:23:09 lzma is even better, p_l :) 15:23:28 yeah, but it's just the catalog, an index of those titles not their content 15:23:50 I can't afford anything from the LDC (linguistic data consortium), so I'm stuck looking at free corpera only 15:23:55 or any deep abstraction thereof 15:24:30 it's copora 15:24:31 mogonus: check out xmlisp. http://www.agentsheets.com/lisp/XMLisp/ 15:24:36 *corpora 15:24:59 mogunus: wikisource might also be useful 15:25:16 (it certainly has more public domain stuff from some authors) 15:25:46 or wikipedia itself 15:26:34 yeah there's a semantic wiki which either is or probably eventually will do something with rdf 15:26:52 actually I think there's a few projects like that 15:27:54 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:28:34 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:32:31 -!- prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:34:12 milanj [n=milan@93.86.187.105] has joined #lisp 15:34:13 -!- virl [n=virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:36:41 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 15:38:17 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:39:17 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 15:39:31 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 15:40:20 -!- manuel_____ [n=manuel@pD9E6D2A8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 15:40:24 letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has joined #lisp 15:41:34 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:42:14 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.134] has joined #lisp 15:43:59 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-168-132-106.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 15:44:26 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdsleq092.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:46:31 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.134] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:47:11 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 15:47:20 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-29-224.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:47:54 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.227.175] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:49:43 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:50:43 rouslan [n=Rouslan@pool-64-222-181-252.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:37 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:51:54 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:58 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:56:20 -!- Tongara is now known as dalton_harrison 15:57:40 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 15:58:04 is there a clean way to override/disable some of the 'heuristic symbol coloring' in slime? the bright red 'check-....' forms are getting on my nerves 15:58:40 M-x customize-face 15:58:50 when cursor is on the desired face 15:59:27 -!- dalton_harrison is now known as dalton 15:59:33 Ogedei: I like it. Do not use the fontifying-fu contrib. 16:00:11 Ogedei: That is if it's not just the color that you do not like (if that's all, yeah change the color) 16:00:48 tcr: seems everyone is opting for the overpriced dinner. :-/ 16:01:03 Well, I'm not 16:01:41 -!- Adlai is now known as Adlai-AWAY 16:02:17 tcr: is there a way to say (slime-setup '(slime-fancy [but without fontifying-fu]))? 16:03:13 luis: I don't feel bad about morally (I feel bad about missing interesting discussions.) It's made so expensive for the purpose of reducing the cost of attending just the meeting so poor students like myself can participate. 16:03:42 Ogedei: have a look at slime-fancy.el and load the ones you want. 16:04:03 Ogedei: No, there is not. Notice that slime-fontifying-fu also does the suppressing of reader-conditionals 16:04:06 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:05:12 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-159-222.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:05:19 TuxPurple_ [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 16:06:27 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:06:41 -!- TuxPurple_ is now known as TuxPurple 16:06:47 -!- kmels_ is now known as kmels 16:07:26 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:49 -!- masm [n=masm@bl5-107-227.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:10:16 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 16:10:28 i have (setq slime-additional-font-lock-keywords nil) 16:10:48 note that it should be before loading slime 16:15:33 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:22:45 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:26:31 Lone_Wanderer1 [n=Dan@c-67-169-246-153.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:21 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:27:34 How can I tell which file on my system is slime itself? (So I can put it in (add-to-list 'load-path "/the/path/to/slime")) 16:27:39 -!- Lone_Wanderer1 is now known as Lone_Wanderer 16:27:50 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:27:57 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:27:59 where did you put it? 16:28:35 I just did emerge slime 16:28:55 -!- frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@wafer.futurs.inria.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:28:57 I've got /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/site-gentoo.d/70slime-gentoo.el and /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/slime/slime.elc - looks like either of those could be it 16:29:13 well, then you don't need to do anything 16:29:21 I ran emacs and did M-x slime 16:29:28 and it didn't know what to do with it 16:29:40 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:29:50 that's a gentoo problem, not slime 16:29:52 then again I emerged it as root and then logged out to get back to an unprivileged user - could that be the problem? 16:30:34 doesn't appear to be it since root doesn't have a ~/.emacs 16:31:06 i can only tell you how to install slime without package managers 16:31:43 I don't mind unemerging it and reinstalling it as the unprivileged user 16:32:22 i don't think that would make a difference 16:32:39 Why not? 16:32:41 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-168-232-133.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:32:55 well, why yes? 16:33:09 because you know how to install it sans package manager 16:33:59 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:34:00 oh, then yes, i thought you were going to reinstall it not by hand again 16:34:10 nah 16:34:25 _quasi [n=quasi@122.170.21.174] has joined #lisp 16:34:51 then purge it, get from http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/#downloading put http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Installation.html#Installation into your .emacs, changing (slime-setup) to (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) 16:35:00 and you're done 16:35:10 k 16:35:39 do I need to make a slime directory and then cd into it to download this thing? 16:36:01 i'm pretty sure it will create its own directory 16:36:14 ok 16:36:19 of course, I don't have cvs on this machine either 16:36:39 get a snapshot 16:36:51 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:37:15 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 16:37:25 *Lone_Wanderer* nods. 16:38:24 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:38:56 Lone_Wanderer: get clbuild :-) 16:39:17 cool 16:39:20 I'll check it out 16:39:22 minion: tell Lone_Wanderer about clbuild 16:39:23 Lone_Wanderer: please see clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 16:39:30 clbuild has slightly brain-damaged slime config 16:39:57 stassats`: but it's good for maintaining up-to-date slime :-) 16:40:10 stassats`: in what sense? 16:40:14 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:40:57 lichtblau: (setq slime-use-autodoc-mode nil) ; this line 16:41:37 anyone here uses kenny tiltons' cells? 16:41:51 for inferior-lisp-program do I just want the result of "which sbcl"? 16:41:56 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 16:42:08 prxq: I've been looking for an excuse to but haven't found one yet. 16:42:25 Lone_Wanderer: that'll work 16:42:27 k 16:42:46 yay! 16:42:53 -!- Beef [n=Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:43:05 *Lone_Wanderer* plays the Ghostbusters theme. 16:43:13 excuse: "to find out that it's bad and you don't need to find excuse any more" 16:43:16 prxq: some tried, I know for one that Ramarren's git repository contains version that actually compiles 16:43:23 note that i know whether it's bad or good 16:43:23 Why is it bad? 16:43:27 s/note/not/ 16:43:31 stassats`: hmm. Presumably that's copy&paste from my personal slime configuration. What does this line do? I thought autodoc is the arglist display, and I still get that. 16:43:39 prxq: outside of kenny's work, Cells doesn't seem to be so popular 16:43:53 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:43:56 lichtblau: with nil it's more limited 16:45:27 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-217-217.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:42 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:45:52 okay. we should take it out then. 16:45:53 like it doesn't show on what argument you are now, etc. 16:46:43 good feature for bearing with tens of &optionals 16:46:50 *p_l* shivers 16:47:04 with a &key on the end 16:47:58 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.40.35] has joined #lisp 16:48:53 -!- letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:50:23 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:51:00 _p8709645 [n=thot@203-73-249-80.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has joined #lisp 16:51:45 p_l: the version from c-l.net compiles with a recent sbcl. 16:52:12 prxq: incredible 16:52:20 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 16:52:38 p_l: :-) why? 16:53:33 clim note-output-record-child-changed 16:53:34 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/21-3.html#_1039 16:54:03 i was talking about this function 16:54:18 p_l: actually the tests also run, although I did not understand a single thing of what they did. 16:55:42 c|mell [n=cmell@p5004-ipngn1701marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:58:27 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 16:58:40 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:03:07 prxq: you see, Tilton's rants were the final straw in pushing me into CL... then I recall trying to get cells and cells-gtk to work... let's say, I was surprised when I finally managed to compile it :P 17:03:25 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 17:03:50 p_l: _Kenny Tilton_ convinced you to try lisp?! 17:04:28 prxq: do you know about computed-class? 17:04:30 Is he the smug lisp weenie? 17:04:33 rsynnott: ^^; 17:04:54 when i tokenize numbers, how do i know whether leading minus is a part of a number or a binary operator? 17:04:57 THE smug lisp weenie 17:05:04 I like his rants. 17:05:09 rsynnott: to be exact, it was Paul Graham and Kenny Tilton combo :P 17:05:44 and then my little stint with Haskell made me actually understand something about CLOS :P 17:05:45 PG was kind of a dick to me when we met 17:05:50 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:03 but apparently it was a stressful weekend 17:06:21 I doubt I'd like to meet either of them, but their rants spiked my curiosity well enough 17:06:36 i understood clos after reading Keene, now i forgot it again 17:07:27 stassats`: Haskell typeclasses allowed me to break out of the single dispatch style 17:08:05 i knew no object orientation before, so that wasn't a problem 17:08:36 I learned OO via C++ originally :( 17:08:42 That brain damage took a while to correct. 17:09:07 Actually it took using Plato's cave allegory to teach someone else about OOP to correct it. 17:09:08 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:09:49 ruediger_ [n=ruediger@93-82-12-83.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:10:11 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 17:11:15 p_l: a combination of Paul Graham and Kenny Tilton is a terrifying idea 17:11:18 *stassats`* read cave allegory and didn't like it 17:11:22 just 17:11:43 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p5004-ipngn1701marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:12:06 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:12:06 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:12:06 -!- prip [n=_prip@host185-132-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:12:06 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:12:06 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:12:06 -!- vy [n=user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:12:06 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:12:06 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:12:06 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:12:06 -!- cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:12:06 -!- scode_ [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:12:06 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:12:06 -!- sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.utwente.nl] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:12:06 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-187-178.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:12:15 How can you not like it? 17:12:41 It's a classic. Literally. 17:12:46 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 17:12:46 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 17:12:46 prip [n=_prip@host185-132-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:12:46 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:12:46 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:46 vy [n=user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has joined #lisp 17:12:46 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 17:12:46 fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 17:12:46 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-187-178.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 17:12:46 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 17:12:46 sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 17:12:46 scode_ [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 17:12:46 cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 17:12:52 that's off-topic 17:12:58 I guess so. 17:12:59 -!- Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-18.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:13:13 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:13:24 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:13:30 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 17:13:53 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:13:56 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 17:14:00 Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:20 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:14:22 i rather mean that i don't agree with it 17:14:23 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 17:14:26 rsynnott: I guess so. Still, Tilton's story about one of his projects (that one didn't went into production, someone else got the contract I think) and how Cells worked (especially ranting how CLOS and MOP helped) balanced out PGs object-hate :) 17:14:44 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:14:50 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:56 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.206.126] has quit [] 17:14:59 well, agreeing with it is a separate issue 17:15:13 basically it was Plato flipping the bird to the folks who killed Socrates 17:15:26 it does make a good platform for explaining OO principles though 17:16:06 what philosophical concept is good for explaining lambda calculus? 17:16:36 Cave Allegory was about how all we see is illusions or something like that? (Sorry, failed philosophy ;P) 17:16:51 Kind of yeah. 17:17:13 It's the one where a bunch of guys are in a cave and all they see is shadows projected onto a wall, but they think it's real 'cause they've never known anything else 17:17:39 then one of them escapes and at first is blinded by the sunlight, but then he sees things as they *really* are and realizes that the shadows were just pale imitations of real life 17:17:40 I think quantum chemistry did that to me, then I got additional hits in the form of Psychology course ^^; 17:18:07 then he goes back into the cave to tell everyone but when he goes back in he can't see that well 'cause of the dim light so he gets ragged on by the people whose eyes are still adjusted to the dark 17:18:25 but he keeps telling them how much more awesome things are outside, which threatens their established heirarchy, so they kill him 17:18:33 hierarchy* 17:18:50 It's a poor epistemological argument, since in many cases there's no clear indication over what's more real 17:18:58 but there are a lot of other ideas that get introduced that have influenced a lot of wide-ranging topics 17:19:22 dlowe: and in reality the cave has no exit :D 17:19:32 p_l: or it leads to another cave 17:19:37 that should be an allegory about xenophoby, 17:19:46 dlowe: one giant cave system :P 17:19:49 yeah, the actual "what you see is fake" thing doesn't really fly but there are other ideas that get introduced (such as the platonic ideal) that are useful 17:20:10 because basically a class is a platonic ideal 17:20:23 sounds more like prototype oo than classbased. 17:20:29 Well, what we see *is* kind of fake... I'm still surprised at how we somehow create the images we think we "see" from what our eyes show 17:20:42 once you explain a platonic ideal, classes and objects map right onto it perfectly so it's great for teaching OOP 17:21:00 Isn't it just easier to teach it w/o it? 17:21:12 Have you tried it both ways? :p 17:21:16 schme: what if you teach philosophers? 17:21:32 stassats`: what a philosophical question! 17:23:10 Lone_Wanderer: I'm just thniking that because most people haven't read that cave thing, and most seem not even to have heard the name Plato. well is a bit of a long and confusing story. Why drag that into something easy, eh? 17:23:17 Lone_Wanderer: Just my 0.02euro. 17:23:20 oh yeah, you don't have to go into all of that 17:23:26 I just show pictures of cats 17:23:31 and say "How do you know this is a cat?" 17:23:34 it'd bee good to have a device for clearing memory of some harmful concepts 17:23:41 like Basic 17:23:50 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.134] has joined #lisp 17:23:50 and keep arguing with them until they say "Well I just KNOW, okay?" 17:24:04 Lone_Wanderer: the correct answer is to say "What's a cat?" 17:24:06 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:24:18 (Get a picture of a three-legged cat or a cat with no tail for bonus points because someone will inevitably say "It has four legs and a tail and...") 17:24:28 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.134] has quit [Client Quit] 17:24:33 http://www.boingboing.net/2009/08/06/vVSCzmYiTqtkbfcis2u1QkiKo1_500.png 17:25:00 and then you say "Okay so we know it's a cat because we all have an idea in our head of what makes a cat... a cat. We could even say that there is an 'idea cat' floating around that defines catness.'" 17:25:29 I'd say that's a truckload of manure. But I'm not a Platonist 17:25:46 "And we could say that every real cat is a copy, if you will, of this idea cat." 17:25:59 And then you segue into classes and instantiating them. 17:26:09 Well, I'm not saying it's real. It's just a way to think about things. 17:26:14 The cat of Amber, no doubt 17:26:23 dlowe: "fuck I am you cat"? 17:26:31 i always knew philosophers have weird ideas about delivering their ideas 17:26:46 It'd be great if someone got a psychotic break from the cat torture. I DO NOT KNOW IF IT IS A CAT! WAAAAA! 17:26:47 s/ideas/ways/ 17:26:48 Nah, you'd need the cat inside the Jewel, which projects catness into reality and of which every physical cat is a poor copy. 17:27:07 dlowe: my nick on another IRC network is Oberon :) 17:27:17 like the OS 17:27:22 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-190-240.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:27:27 Lone_Wanderer: hah 17:27:30 stassats`: I have taught it both ways and I've had much more success with the Platonic ideal way. 17:27:33 hey, schme. 17:27:37 tic man! 17:27:39 But maybe I haven't given the direct method much of a shot :p 17:27:45 (I haven't.) 17:27:55 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:27:55 schme, how's the vim:ing? 17:28:14 tic: I've been lisping the last couple of... uh.. some time unit, so I'm in emacs. 17:28:20 aha. :-) 17:28:22 tic, schme: I would appreciate if you could find a time when we could have lunch or dinner together while I am in Malmø. 17:28:23 tic: which really is a bitch once you've gotten a bit used to vim. 17:28:34 oh yeah! i forgot to check that. 17:28:35 booo [n=user@dsl-hkibrasgw3-ff2dc000-174.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:28:41 beach: sorry about the delay :) 17:28:51 schme: Still no rush. Just a reminder. 17:28:55 Whichever day is fine with me, really. 17:29:00 *foodtime* 17:29:01 schme: that's like a cave allegory, vim is a cave 17:29:05 I keep putting j's and h's into my emacs files. 17:29:09 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 17:29:12 other Lispers are welcome of course, if they happen to be in Malmø at the time. 17:29:26 Yeah, you need to let your fingers adjust to the sunlight outside the vim cave. 17:29:31 stassats`: and emacs is the people beating one up after one comes back from bash? 17:29:42 emacs is the light 17:30:00 well time to check time and date (: 17:30:18 $ vi ... C-x C-s damn, everything is freezed 17:30:20 man, that cup of coffee I had this morning must have been strong stuff 17:30:52 it's.... five hours later and I'm still a little jittery 17:32:07 stassats`: try C-q 17:32:49 antifuchs: i know, still the same inconvenience as with j and h 17:33:13 heh. at least h is to the left of l on qwerty keyboards (: 17:33:28 ...in stark contrast to emacs's f and b (-: 17:33:29 *rsynnott* laughs at the phrase 'cat torture' 17:34:15 -!- _quasi [n=quasi@122.170.21.174] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:34:25 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 17:34:50 antifuchs: but f and b do mean something 17:35:56 stassats`: sure. so do left and right (: 17:36:02 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 17:37:10 right at the end of line doesn't make sens, while forward does 17:38:19 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-coakviubogosyuhz] has joined #lisp 17:39:21 I recall reading a text where the author explains vi as a roguelike that you can use to edit text. makes sense. 17:39:26 milanj- [n=milan@91.150.119.137] has joined #lisp 17:39:54 vi is a modal editor with two modes: one where it messes up your text, and the other that BEEPS 17:39:58 then emacs is a text edit when you can play rogue? 17:40:07 s/edit/editor/ 17:40:44 The chapter heading bites. You die. Do you want your word count identified? 17:40:49 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@pool-71-186-170-81.bflony.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:41:08 kmels [n=kmels@97.160.216.201.static.intelnet.net.gt] has joined #lisp 17:45:57 ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:59 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:47:09 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:17 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.187.105] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:47:24 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 17:47:29 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 17:48:33 -!- milanj- is now known as milanj 17:48:46 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-245.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:51:34 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:01 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:56 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:53:01 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:20 dlowe, I find vim a very powerful text editor, whereas emacs is probably a very powerful programming environment. not quite the same. 17:55:20 -!- _p8709645 [n=thot@203-73-249-80.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has left #lisp 17:56:04 tic: it was tongue in cheek. 17:56:22 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.219.182] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:56:22 quite old too 17:56:23 dlowe, I know, I just felt the urge to shove my views down your throat. ;) 17:56:49 But I've noticed that most emacs users have used vim, and most vim users have not used emacs. Take that as you willl 17:57:24 I use Emacs, but it's just slower for text editing stuff. Vimpulse wasn't good enough last time, but I think I'm going to give it another try. 17:57:48 dlowe: that's because when they try emacs they can't go back 17:58:00 stassats`: that was my experience, certainly. 17:58:06 and then of course, how frame commands and numbers map, is magic I can't seem to remember. 17:58:41 they're mnemonic 17:59:19 anyway, this isn't really the place for emacs vs vi, unless we're talking about inferior-lisp interfaces 18:01:24 what is the current state of the art in lisp for vi? 18:01:44 something spelled like netktulhu? 18:01:57 nekthuth 18:02:15 i almost got it right 18:02:29 heh 18:02:55 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:03:10 Seems promising. I've basically given up on Limp, because in order to get something usable for Vim, you need to hack so much of the nasty Vim C code it's not funny. However... I might have solved the problem of being able to use Lisp functions everywhere Vim expects Vimscript! That's a great plus. 18:03:11 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-15-210.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:03:40 tic: why? can't you use swank? 18:05:20 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.219.182] has joined #lisp 18:06:29 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:06:36 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:07:18 -!- Adlai-AWAY is now known as Adlai 18:11:03 though swank isn't great, i wouldn't want to reimplement it 18:11:25 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:11:54 s0ber [i=pie@118-160-165-136.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:13 stassats`, on the server side, yeah. but on the client side, i.e. Vim, I must have a way of doing communication (sanely) with Swank. That's problematic. 18:13:27 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:13:54 using python seems like a good compromise 18:14:08 You mean vim-python? 18:14:20 that's what nekthuth does 18:15:00 That's not an issue, I have ECL working in Vim. The problem is that of (preferedly) asynchronous communication. 18:15:39 but I might have to give that up and do synchronous comms. 18:16:05 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-246-37.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:17 synchronous for output doesn't sound good 18:16:30 synchronous for talking to Swank. 18:16:50 -!- Lone_Wanderer [n=Dan@c-67-169-246-153.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:16:53 output is a part of talking 18:16:54 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:17:06 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:17:17 if you want a REPL 18:17:37 type (+ in Vim, which then asks Swank about the parameter list, waits for reply, and back. Repeat for each character written. 18:17:51 the repl part would be line-based, so that shouldn't be a problem.. 18:18:19 p_l: I see. 18:18:24 Hm. That was a bad example. That happens anyway. Can't remember the details right now, but there were Issues(tm) :-) 18:18:31 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 18:18:44 malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:18:58 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest25232 18:19:17 is there a command in emacs/slime such that if I have the cursor on the definition of a function, I can get a list of everywhere it is called/referenced? 18:19:22 luis: no, I don't know much (actually, anything) about computed-class. Does it have any relation to cells? 18:19:50 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:20:02 malcolm_reynolds: M-x slime-who-calls 18:20:07 malcolm_reynolds: If you have the menubar there in emacs I think there is a bunch o' stuff like that in the slime crossreference menu. 18:20:10 thankyou! 18:20:22 prxq: it implements some of Cell's functionality. 18:20:23 -!- Guest25232 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 18:20:28 M-x who-you-gonna-call 18:20:36 *Cells' 18:20:47 that's C-c C-w c binding 18:20:51 prxq: SW-MVC also gives similar effect 18:21:37 lnostdal: though you said something about your code being highly experimental, right? 18:22:21 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:23:24 hmm, sbcl with FTYPE declarations figures out much of the program 18:24:26 prxq: it might be simpler to use. Less magic. 18:24:45 weirdo: try sb-ext:*derive-function-types* 18:25:13 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:25:15 stassats`, where do i need to put it for ASDF? 18:25:41 prxq: someone recently complained on how Cells autogenerates symbol names, which can be offputting 18:25:48 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:25:49 but that's a bad idea. only SBCL would get fast code 18:26:06 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:09 s0ber_ [i=pie@118-168-238-148.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:33 yeah, blame SBCL for being fast. :-) 18:26:37 right, anyway you can't get the same optimization for several implementations 18:26:51 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:25 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 18:28:03 novns [n=novns@194.143.148.26] has joined #lisp 18:28:04 luis, :-D 18:28:31 sbcl definitely has the best type inference of all implementations 18:28:46 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:28:56 -!- novns [n=novns@194.143.148.26] has left #lisp 18:32:42 -!- kmels [n=kmels@97.160.216.201.static.intelnet.net.gt] has quit [] 18:33:58 |Trickster| [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has joined #lisp 18:34:02 p_l, luis: I see. The idea has caught, but kt's cells not so much 18:35:44 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 18:36:19 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-160-165-136.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:36:49 one thing that is most important for me is what people who have used such a paradigm think of it. Does it really deliver what it promises? (I understand it promises that one can program in an "orderly spaghetti" style) 18:37:34 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:09 cp2 [n=will@69.163.33.38] has joined #lisp 18:44:04 ment [i=thement@ibawizard.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:21 hi, any suggestions for minimalistic lisp/scheme interpreters? 18:44:51 why minimalistic? 18:45:08 ment: AIM-8, I guess 18:45:11 i need to steal type system and cell allocator/gc from somewhere 18:45:42 maybe not, then :) 18:46:12 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:47:19 minion: lisp-500 18:47:20 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``lisp-500''. 18:47:30 minion lisp500 18:47:34 gah 18:47:38 minion: lisp500? 18:47:38 lisp500: A 500-line-or-less implementation of a basic Lisp, available at http://www.modeemi.fi/~chery/lisp500/ 18:48:00 anyway, I doubt that's helpful 18:48:12 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:29 michaelw: not a bit 18:49:26 yikes that code is terrifying 18:49:41 ment: then again, what you want to steal is usually quite intrically linked to the rest of the system anyway 18:49:52 boehm? 18:50:27 does the book LiSP implement any GCs? I don't remember. 18:50:47 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.206.126] has joined #lisp 18:50:55 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 18:51:07 no 18:51:28 what do they do? surely not implement a lisp without gc, right? 18:51:42 use boehm gc for c 18:51:56 prxq: hiya! long time no see! 18:51:58 prxq: it's not really a complete, runnable implementation 18:52:03 michaelw: that's why i'm looking for minimal interpter :) 18:52:36 hi michaelw :-) 18:52:57 stassats`: boehm is a waste of resources, i just need the tagged-pointers/mark-and-sweep/knuth-stackless-traversal thingie (or any variation on that) 18:54:11 ment: chibi-scheme has a reasonably nice code base 18:54:23 nice name :D 18:55:14 michaelw: ha, that's i was looking for. thanks 18:56:41 interpreters from LiSP use host's GC? 18:57:03 looks like chibi-scheme uses boehm gc 18:57:09 (implicitly) 18:57:25 piso: optionally, it also has a custom precise GC 18:57:26 By default Chibi uses a custom, precise, non-moving GC. 18:57:44 oh, ok, I was just looking at the source tree 18:58:05 good old Mark & Sweep's GC is not so hard to implement. 18:58:45 cheney is even simpler. 18:59:07 pkhuong: what's cheney? 19:00:18 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheney's_algorithm 19:00:18 ment: ftp://ftp.cs.utexas.edu/pub/garbage/bigsurv.ps is the best GC intro I have come across so far. 19:00:59 luis: thanks 19:04:09 is it normal for COPY-SEQ to forget about a fill pointer? 19:05:19 it's what it should do 19:05:45 thx 19:05:54 clhs copy-seq 19:05:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cp_seq.htm 19:08:47 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:10:47 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:13:04 -!- Ogedei [n=user@e178208029.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:21:32 stipet [n=user@c83-253-28-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:21:50 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:22:28 weirdo2 [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:22:41 aiee 19:22:44 i started slime and it was like, emacs debugger appeared and said "error in timer" 19:22:51 i had to restart inferior lisp 19:23:42 -!- ausente [n=user7994@189-19-117-32.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit ["eject"] 19:23:42 better yet, i did an infinite loop allocating memory or somesuch and my pc totally hung itself 19:24:10 heh, nice 19:24:24 Done that a few times here too...part of the reason why I use virtual machines for developing in now :) 19:24:26 shooting yourself in the foot? 19:24:27 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.40.35] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:24:28 among many other reasons. 19:25:12 *stassats`* usually goes drinking tea while waiting for OOM to commence 19:26:34 Xof, luis: If I may beat on a dead horse just a little longer: 19:26:41 On the way home I've thought a little more about what the UTF-8b plans mean for encoding round-trips. It's too long for IRC, so I'll paste it. 19:26:47 -!- delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:27:22 *p_l* wonders if ~91 tabs was overkill for his FF 19:27:37 and this is strange, when i declare type to ftype (vector octet) it says too complex to check 19:27:50 but if i declare to vector, it works 19:27:53 _8david pasted "UTF-32 ./. UTF-8b thoughts" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85001 19:27:55 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:28:05 The Unicode horse will sooner get its own code point rather than die. 19:28:12 weirdo2: maybe it doesn't lie? 19:29:03 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 19:29:05 -!- |Trickster| [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:29:27 p_l, firefox is not really good with multiple tabs, I've got around 200 tabs open here, and firefox takes half an hour to start. Opera stays rather unimpressed. 19:29:52 whoppix: yeah, but Opera doesn't have features I need 19:30:02 but then, I've also got some plugins in my firefox which seemingly makes it slower, i should throw those out 19:30:07 p_l, which features do you need? 19:30:11 how do you navigate around 200 tabs? 19:30:24 stassats`, treestyle-tabs make that easier 19:30:37 whoppix: I have a big can of extensions, most importantly Vimperator, Firebug and several other 19:30:44 *stassats`* prefers GCing tabs 19:30:54 stassats`, I do, just not fast enough :) 19:31:19 p_l, hm, dunno, but I'd imagine there would be replacements for most of those available as opera plugins as well. 19:31:24 p_l, otherwise do it like me, use both browsers. 19:31:30 whoppix: except Vimperator, I think 19:31:50 p_l, I haven't tried imperator yet, although it's on my todo. 19:32:42 lichtblau: what exactly do you mean when you say "SBCL does not support the Lisp string round-trip using any 19:32:45 of UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32"? 19:33:08 luis: utf-8 -> string -> utf-8 isn't the identity. 19:33:19 |Trickster| [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has joined #lisp 19:33:39 pkhuong: it isn't? 19:36:18 lichtblau: there's a third option: for iolib I wrote a brand new implementation of strings: http://tinyurl.com/nt72u2 http://tinyurl.com/kq3xa2 19:38:04 That's your answer for everything. :-) 19:38:24 luis: not with Xof's plans re surrogates, I don't think. Definitely not a total identity on incorrectly encoded inputs. 19:38:58 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c146-247.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:39:15 pkhuong: huh? surrogates are illegal in utf-8. 19:39:24 pkhuong: so utf-8->string->utf-8 can't have surrogate problems 19:39:46 yeah, what foom said. 19:39:49 -!- |Trickster| [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:40:25 foom: yay (: 19:40:35 -!- xenosoz [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:40:36 certainly incorrectly-encoded-crap-usually-utf-8 -> string -> incorrectly-encoded-crap-usually-utf-8 is a useful kind of encoding to have 19:40:46 but be clear in that that's distinct from utf-8. :) 19:40:55 that's what utf-8b achieves 19:40:59 right 19:41:11 xenosoz [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has joined #lisp 19:41:16 voidpointer [i=bd6fd10d@gateway/web/freenode/x-kqofotnqxukfwzek] has joined #lisp 19:41:51 -!- imperian [n=noone@41.174.64.65] has quit [] 19:42:01 imperian [i=imperian@41.174.64.65] has joined #lisp 19:42:32 |Trickster| [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has joined #lisp 19:42:36 [df]_ [n=df@bspencer.plus.com] has joined #lisp 19:43:04 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:08 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:43:58 lichtblau: I suspect you mean that there's no guarantee that Lisp string will encode into UTF-{8,16,32} without encoding errors, is that right? 19:44:21 that's what the paste says, yes. 19:44:47 CCL doesn't guarantee that round-trip either, FWIW. 19:44:59 why not? 19:45:24 it will happily generate invalid UTF-* with noncharacters, IIRC. 19:45:42 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:46:58 what is a noncharacter here? 19:47:07 http://paste.lisp.org/display/85003 can anyone point to what idiocy i might have committed here? is this just more than my little macbook can handle? 19:47:10 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:47:16 U+FFFF and friends. 19:47:28 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 19:47:29 -!- [df] [n=df@bspencer.plus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:47:34 and is there anything clever i can type in the prompt to get diagnoses 19:47:58 malcolm_reynolds: looks like you just used up all the memory 19:48:05 luis: oh no, not still unicode 19:48:21 Krystof: it's lichtblau's fault. :-) 19:48:31 i have 2 gigs physical, and this appears to say 1.6 gigs is the limit 19:48:34 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:48:43 does sbcl use virtual memory 19:49:03 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:49:06 you can't not use virtual memory :p 19:49:12 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-159-222.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:49:41 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:50 lichtblau: section 16.7 of the Unicode standard. 19:50:51 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-112-40.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:40 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:53:08 I am planning to support UCS-4 separately from UTF-32 19:54:08 and I'm fairly sure I can get ccl/slime to fall over, for example by getting emacs to send one of its surrogates over the wire in a string to ccl 19:55:03 Emacs/SLIME is very sensitive to encoding errors, I haven't yet figured out how to fix that. But that's another story. 19:55:18 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:57:09 emacs happily saves a buffer with a surrogate in it in utf-8-unix 19:57:21 emacs23, that is. It then fails to load it, so go figure 19:57:23 I wonder if there was a way to make unicode not have any coding errors :/ 19:58:09 gcv [n=gcv@64.30.3.122] has joined #lisp 19:58:48 Eliminate all software which produces such output and wipe all instances of such in all text in the world? 19:58:49 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:58:56 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:07 well, I was just thinking, there's no such thing as a coding error in ASCII :p 20:00:04 It doesn't try to be efficient. 20:00:53 You could use, like, 64 bit encoding and avoid all problems, I think. 20:00:55 *shrug* I don't think the goal of having all possible sequences being valid is opposed to efficiency 20:01:57 Moreover, UTF tries interesting stuff, like combining character, at which point even 64 bit might be not enough. 20:02:59 dlowe: there isn't? What's U+100 in ASCII? 20:03:46 loxs [n=loxs@82.119.85.174] has joined #lisp 20:05:09 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 20:06:09 scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-76-151.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:43 -!- gcv [n=gcv@64.30.3.122] has quit [] 20:06:54 gcv [n=gcv@64.30.3.122] has joined #lisp 20:07:05 luis: nothing. But there's I imagine dlowe was pointing out that there no sequence of octets that is an invalid ASCII string. 20:07:53 gigamonkey: But there's I imagining luis was pointing out that ASCII is 7-bit :) 20:07:57 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:08:00 darn, I meant anything over 127 actually. 20:08:27 good point. 20:08:53 Darn, what were they thinking about when designing ASCII! 20:09:27 -!- gcv [n=gcv@64.30.3.122] has quit [Client Quit] 20:10:01 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.2/20090729225027]"] 20:10:04 deepfire: printers? 20:10:27 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:10:49 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:50 deepfire: morse code? 20:11:08 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:11:16 last bit could be used for parity checking 20:11:48 p_l, then they are guilty of conflating text representation and transport layer.. 20:12:11 off with their heads! 20:12:55 anyway, as someone who is faced with participation in teaching my offsprings three different alphabets (two of which I don't really master), I wouldn't mind if the world would have just standardized on, say, Korean and abolish everything else 20:13:36 michaelw: I doubt you could do that without leaving ideographic characters in 20:14:13 -!- loxs [n=loxs@82.119.85.174] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:14:16 japanese writing would be near-impossible without kanji (afaik it's easier to adapt kanjis to be useful for all languages...) 20:14:25 i vote for IPA 20:15:20 stassats`: the same problem as with any phonetic writing system - some languages have to many homonyms(?) to work with that 20:16:05 well, you have context for that 20:16:06 p_l: AFAIU Korean is quite good for phonetic transcription 20:16:19 ak70 [n=user@195.158.91.95] has joined #lisp 20:16:20 -!- novaburst [i=nova@sourcemage/mage/novaburst] has quit ["leaving"] 20:16:20 stassats`: problem is when context isn't enough 20:16:43 well, you do somehow work out this while speaking 20:17:19 stassats`: while speaking you use a much wider coding scheme than just phonetic spelling of the word 20:17:30 -!- stipet [n=user@c83-253-28-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:18:02 kanji are retarded 20:18:06 there are ten thousands of them 20:18:16 and we have 26 letters in latin alphabet 20:18:16 what coding scheme? 20:18:19 weirdo2: because it's ideographic system, quite nifty IMHO 20:18:42 p_l, excepts you have two kanjis like "ka" and "na" and they look completely different even though each one has "a" in them 20:19:18 and their culture is retarded too, honorifics for instance 20:19:31 not to mention japanese people are obedient and rely on a strict social hierarchy 20:19:33 stassats`: you need to add intonation, exact way of spelling the word, body language (this can be ommited) and many others 20:19:36 that's hacker's worst nightmare 20:19:38 yay for tolerance 20:19:58 weirdo2: you just showed up that you have zero understanding of ideographic writing systems, you know? :D 20:20:11 p_l: i'm not convinced 20:20:22 and body language? seriously? 20:20:24 I find honorifics quite nice, though getting around full set of them is crazy 20:20:28 stassats`: seriously 20:20:32 p_l, well romaji is good enough for me 20:20:35 over the phone? 20:20:49 michaelw, i'm not insulting japanese people, only their culture and society. that's a big difference :) 20:20:53 stassats`: that's why I noted that you can omit body language in many cases 20:21:08 did i mention their obsession about "cuteness"? 20:21:19 weirdo2: except that with the amount of homonyms in japanese, writing it phonetically is a giant PITA 20:21:42 weirdo2: that's a new thing, and mostly problem with girls... and I'd say I can find something like that in most countries 20:21:44 p_l, that's not the only problem, after you've conjugated a word you have no way of knowing what the original word is 20:21:54 p_l: and where is not enough context, just add more 20:22:08 and kanji don't solve this 20:22:15 so their language is screwed either way 20:22:41 weirdo2: kanji do help with that, you don't change kanji when you conjugate, you only add apriopriate phonetic conjugation to the kanji 20:23:18 francogrex [n=franco@91.176.40.195] has joined #lisp 20:23:38 this is great, we've gone from talking about encodings to which cultures are retarded 20:24:11 a foreign one, obviously 20:24:33 stassats`: well, that's kind of how we are wired... 20:24:48 though I won't say it's a good thing 20:25:28 i'm not wired that way! 20:25:40 your culture must be retarded if you are wired that way 20:25:45 weirdo2: when I conjugate , I don't change the kanji, only add different kana to write down conjugation 20:26:05 right. but it's confusing in speech, still 20:26:21 asksol [n=ask@084202073154.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 20:26:33 stassats`: I meant that we subconciously see "strangers" as "lower". We overcome this with intelligence, but it kind of influences how we are 20:26:34 and they have a weird way of changing the order of words in casual conversation, saying for instance "baka na, sonna no" 20:26:44 can anyone refer me to a simple guide online on how to simply create an asdf system?, just something very elementary to learn? 20:26:46 but that's easy to get used to 20:26:55 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:26:55 -!- michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:26:55 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:26:55 -!- easyE [i=[XEYHAIZ@panix3.panix.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:26:55 -!- alexsuraci|gone [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:26:55 -!- housel [n=housel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:26:55 -!- clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:27:04 minion: xach asdf? 20:27:05 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 20:27:11 argh 20:27:52 minion: xach-asdf 20:27:53 xach-asdf: Xach's article "Making a small Common Lisp project" can be found at http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 20:27:54 weirdo2: because informal speech doesn't have to follow strict grammatical rules, especially due to presence of additional context. And apparently all kind of poetry starts with kicking the grammar outside 20:28:10 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 20:28:11 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:11 easyE [i=[XEYHAIZ@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 20:28:11 clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 20:28:11 housel [n=housel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 20:28:11 alexsuraci|gone [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:11 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:11 michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has joined #lisp 20:28:16 francogrex: here it is 20:28:17 ok thnks stassats 20:31:21 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-76-151.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:31:27 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:31:27 -!- michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:31:27 -!- easyE [i=[XEYHAIZ@panix3.panix.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:31:27 -!- alexsuraci|gone [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:31:27 -!- housel [n=housel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:31:27 -!- clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:31:27 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:32:23 weirdo2: btw, regarding hackers in japanese culture... just don't leave bathhouse :> 20:33:10 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:33:27 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:34:20 p_l, i don't get it 20:34:21 :) 20:34:42 -!- bgs100 is now known as notnotnotnotnota 20:34:49 -!- notnotnotnotnota is now known as notnotnotacat 20:34:59 weirdo2: What happens in bath house, stays in bath house 20:35:13 also, during tea ceremony, everyone is equal 20:35:35 at least that how it was in feudal times, iirc 20:36:04 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:36:20 chandler [n=n@opendarwin/developer/chandler] has joined #lisp 20:37:52 -!- notnotnotacat is now known as bgs100 20:37:54 how do i check whether something is a directory in CL? 20:38:07 lichtblau: I just read your thoughts on UTF-8b on lisppaste 20:38:20 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:44 got it, CL-FAD:DIRECTORY-PATHNAME-P 20:38:58 lichtblau: Why not keep the information about bytes that don't represent valid Unicode characters as an auxiliary piece of information associated with the string? 20:39:23 lichtblau: This way the string always contains only valid characters, but the actual bytes used to encode the string can be recreated if so desired. 20:41:01 weirdo2: well, CL itself doesn't have a function for that :D 20:41:34 lichtblau: this would either require the implementation's string representation to change to support this, or else it would need to be kept in parallel (perhaps in a weak hash table) 20:41:45 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:42:13 alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:06 housel [n=nhousel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 20:47:06 michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has joined #lisp 20:49:10 hmm it would be useful to have something like microsoft monad shell for lisp 20:51:34 -!- voidpointer [i=bd6fd10d@gateway/web/freenode/x-kqofotnqxukfwzek] has quit [] 20:52:47 -!- chandler [n=n@opendarwin/developer/chandler] has left #lisp 20:53:25 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-159-222.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:57:06 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [No route to host] 20:59:49 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:04:47 easyE [i=[XEYHAIZ@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 21:07:48 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:09:34 weirdo2: CLIM Listener? 21:09:36 masm [n=masm@bl5-107-227.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:10:03 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:10:14 -!- masm [n=masm@bl5-107-227.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 21:10:29 masm [n=masm@bl5-107-227.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:10:49 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@98.235.105.148] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:11:15 at least the one that was in Genera 8.5 was quite nice 21:11:30 -!- masm [n=masm@bl5-107-227.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #lisp 21:12:46 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 21:14:05 would a "module" in lisp be a collection of systems? 21:14:11 *sykopomp* is looking for naming schemes. 21:15:50 p_l, yeah but with stuff like easy piping, pattern matching, plugins etc 21:16:08 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:16:12 sykopomp, no, module is a part of an asdf system composed of a few files 21:16:42 weirdo2: what would you call a collection of systems? 21:16:53 sykopomp, collection of systems 21:17:00 (in the way systems are a collection of files, which may have several packages) 21:17:07 weirdo2: Commander S was an attempt, I think 21:17:12 okay. What would you call them if you had to name such a thing? :P 21:17:15 sykopomp: a ball of mud. 21:17:22 Adlai, *g* 21:17:31 *sykopomp* revives mudballs, then. 21:17:31 incf adlai 21:18:01 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:22 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:18:25 thanks, weirdo2 21:19:34 weirdo2: look at how scsh does it 21:20:28 Commander S was a frontend to it 21:20:39 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:20:42 how hard would it be to implement a module system for CL? 21:20:55 booo: define "module"... 21:20:59 gonzojive [n=red@c-67-188-118-150.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:15 hmm, like in plt scheme for instance 21:21:31 what do you mean? CL already has a package system. 21:21:44 and there are already ways to make those packages hierarchical. 21:21:45 sykopomp: packages != modules 21:21:48 booo: you pretty much have to start with writing your own reader 21:21:53 right 21:22:20 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-67-188-118-150.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:22:28 how hard? a lot 21:22:34 Fare's trying to do it 21:23:11 xcvb will have a module system? 21:23:13 p_l, can has scsh pipes? 21:24:28 danlei``` [n=user@pD9E2C8EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:13 booo: that's one of the main goals, I think 21:25:43 what is xcvb? 21:25:52 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:05 fe[nl]ix: I thought it's "only" an asdf replacement 21:26:09 minion: tell slava about xcvb 21:26:10 slava: please see xcvb: XCVB, an eXtensible Component Verifier and Builder for Lisp is an attempt to replace asdf. http://www.cliki.net/xcvb 21:26:34 minion: i.e. a module system 21:26:35 you speak nonsense 21:26:42 michaelw: i.e. a module system 21:26:43 :D 21:26:43 fe[nl]ix: which means libraries and their distribution, not modules 21:26:59 fe[nl]ix: you speak nonsense 21:27:00 :) 21:27:38 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:27:54 weirdo2: scsh can do pipes etc., it was specially designed for writing more complicated scripts 21:28:13 just asking because I would like to find ways of making building large-ish systems less painful 21:28:50 booo: the usual answer is "first, build a large-ish system" 21:28:58 i have one 21:29:04 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:29:08 and it's painful to build 21:29:27 which is why i'm searching for tips or strategies 21:29:57 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:29:58 how large (I take it's not ITA-related?) 21:29:58 you could try to use xcvb 21:30:35 two systems, 50 kloc each.. don't know if that qualifies as large-ish though 21:31:48 i would be interested in xcvb, but is it ready? 21:31:50 I'd say it does 21:31:52 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [] 21:32:14 after all, AFAIK the main ITA system is only twice that size 21:32:30 k 21:33:02 booo: I think that Fare has already migrated some ITA systems to xcvb 21:33:07 it seems to work for him 21:33:10 -!- imperian [i=imperian@41.174.64.65] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:33:20 imperian [i=imperian@41.174.64.65] has joined #lisp 21:34:09 does ita release open source code? 21:34:31 i assume there is no asdf->xcvb conversion tool? 21:34:38 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:34:50 booo: xcvb contains one such tool 21:35:01 weirdo2: xcvb is ita-sponsored and open source. There have been a few other utilities as well. 21:35:06 it's a one-time cost, but still.. 21:35:24 so xcvb is the accepted asdf replacement? 21:35:47 hm...accepted? I'd say it's not quite at that point yet. :) 21:35:48 not yet 21:36:07 since when do lispers agree on anything? :) 21:36:16 good point 21:36:20 the xcvb docs mention "cfasls", can anyone shed some light? 21:36:45 booo: it doesn't say what they are? That's too bad. 21:36:57 something about compile-time side-effects 21:37:03 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:37:10 and that they will bring great speed 21:37:17 basically: compile-file emits a file which runs all the eval-when :load-toplevel code 21:37:21 into a fasl 21:37:33 cfasl is the same thing except that it's all the eval-when :compile-toplevel code 21:37:59 ahh 21:38:07 clever 21:39:22 -!- trsh [n=chat@93-141-64-45.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:39:38 trsh [n=chat@93-141-44-239.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 21:40:39 -!- danlei`` [n=user@pD9E2F5DD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:41:42 weirdo2: http://common-lisp.net/project/qitab/ 21:42:23 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:05 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:51 I wonder how useful xcvb would be for small systems. Wouldn't it be overkill? 21:44:54 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:45:18 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:45:25 -!- ak70 [n=user@195.158.91.95] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:46:05 http://code.google.com/p/coil/ is another piece of ITA OSS. (not lisp, though) 21:46:35 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-24-191.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:48:26 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-24-191.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 21:50:59 masm [n=masm@bl5-107-227.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:54:06 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:54:51 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:40 -!- francogrex [n=franco@91.176.40.195] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:56:24 -!- masm [n=masm@bl5-107-227.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:56:36 masm [n=masm@bl5-107-227.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:59:07 -!- milanj [n=milan@91.150.119.137] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:03:08 Pb [n=Pb@adsl-70-100-207.tys.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:10 -!- masm [n=masm@bl5-107-227.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #lisp 22:03:42 masm [n=masm@bl5-107-227.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 22:05:06 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:18 -!- Pb [n=Pb@adsl-70-100-207.tys.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 22:25:30 is there a function SBCL to get info on how much memory the process is using? 22:25:46 room 22:26:41 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-40-136.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:28:32 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:28:58 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 22:31:02 know of any lisp program that prints trees to an image? 22:31:59 -!- seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 22:33:20 what do you use for threads now? bordeaux-threads is fine or not? 22:33:42 weirdo2: http://www.cliki.net/cl-dot 22:33:49 thank you 22:34:52 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.206.126] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:35:31 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.206.126] has joined #lisp 22:35:56 claar: draw '(a (b c) d) 22:35:56 http://claar.informatimago.com:8006/18 22:36:18 tree to ASCII 22:37:26 -!- masm [n=masm@bl5-107-227.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #lisp 22:38:17 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:38:54 kmels_ [n=kmels@190.148.206.126] has joined #lisp 22:39:52 clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 22:41:24 claar: draw #1='(programmable . #1#) 22:41:46 you're rude 22:42:05 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.13.218] has joined #lisp 22:42:07 I should've asked first. 22:42:12 good morning 22:42:29 rares [n=dihymo@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 22:42:32 how hard is it to check for circularities? 22:43:03 not hard 22:43:53 /win 2 22:43:59 I seem to remember something about going down the tree twice simultaneously, one time by #'cdr, the other by #'cddr 22:44:23 clhs list-length 22:44:42 -!- kmels_ [n=kmels@190.148.206.126] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:45:06 minion: are you there? 22:45:07 maybe 22:45:44 kmels__ [n=kmels@190.148.206.126] has joined #lisp 22:46:12 stassats`, what's this stuff with * in it? 22:46:37 weirdo2: in what? 22:46:45 weirdo2: cons cells that point to other cons cells? 22:46:51 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.206.126] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:47:44 Adlai, you need to collect a list of all nodes you visited 22:47:59 http://claar.informatimago.com:8006/18 22:48:00 on top 22:48:01 weirdo2: not necessarily. 22:48:04 * | * |-->| * |NIL| 22:48:15 each * is a pointer 22:48:28 weirdo2: yes. * is apointer to another cons cell 22:48:32 it would look better without pointers 22:48:43 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:48:44 -!- demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-077-070.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 22:48:58 no it wouldn't 22:49:10 i see 22:49:18 well, that's one way to settle it. 22:49:47 my taste is superior, i always knew that 22:50:07 claar: draw (loop for i upto 10 collect i) 22:50:21 he's resting 22:50:25 stassats`: is he sandboxed? 22:50:50 i don't know 22:51:07 seems like a pretty bad idea to accept arbitrary forms :\ 22:51:09 but i'm sure *read-eval* is nil 22:52:01 sykopomp: so, you want to intern symbols in it until oblivion? 22:52:37 stassats`: no, I just don't want someone to (with-open-file ...) on you :P 22:53:19 well, it doesn't evaluate forms, as you might notice 22:53:32 stassats`: yeah. 22:53:34 and it doesn't allow *read-eval* 22:53:35 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:04 so, you know any other way to do with-open-file? 22:54:46 sykopomp: I think pjb has code for most of a reader somewhere. 22:55:06 not really. I didn't know whether it ignored my form because it doesn't evaluate them, or because you'd turned it off. 22:55:18 pkhuong: great 22:55:20 is claar run by pjb? 22:55:23 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:43 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.206.126] has joined #lisp 22:55:51 -!- kmels__ [n=kmels@190.148.206.126] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:55:55 sykopomp: well, you could look at my previous drawing 22:56:10 see "quote"? 22:56:14 http://claar.informatimago.com:8006/18 22:56:44 pkhuong: thanks for (room) 22:57:09 Adlai: yes 22:57:32 sykopomp: and it ignored you because Adlai broke it 22:57:35 he could be more error-resilient 22:57:46 there's no need to quit because stack got exhausted 22:58:09 there's no need to exhaust stack either 22:58:27 oh. I missed QUOTE 22:59:39 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 23:00:19 minion: memo for pjb: I'm sorry I crashed claar, it was stupid of me not to ask about circularities first. 23:00:19 Remembered. I'll tell pjb when he/she/it next speaks. 23:00:52 Drunkenmonkey [i=55c89673@gateway/web/freenode/x-vlvuhbnrkpkgwajo] has joined #lisp 23:01:04 Adlai: you're not first 23:01:36 ((lambda (x) (funcall x x)) (lambda (x) (funcall x x))) 23:01:37 stassats`: yeah, I feel bad because I remember now somebody else doing it. 23:01:51 what happens on your impl? does it crash, loop forever or throw an exception? 23:01:56 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Client Quit] 23:02:03 schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.202.25] has joined #lisp 23:02:52 weirdo2: aren't you missing another funcall there? 23:02:52 -!- Drunkenmonkey [i=55c89673@gateway/web/freenode/x-vlvuhbnrkpkgwajo] has left #lisp 23:03:19 Ralith: no 23:03:41 apparently not. 23:04:05 I imagine that would be a stack overflow. 23:04:17 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 23:04:20 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:04:24 unless tailcall optimization took care of it 23:04:26 unless you have a TCO 23:04:29 Ralith: I'm not sure, it's a tail call so it might loop forever. 23:04:35 :P 23:05:11 Adlai pasted "backtrace from ccl" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85017 23:05:27 TCO on CCL 23:06:25 http://claar.informatimago.com:8006/19 23:06:46 Adlai: I restarted it. 23:06:46 pjb, memo from Adlai: I'm sorry I crashed claar, it was stupid of me not to ask about circularities first. 23:07:41 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:07:58 sykopomp: http://darcs.informatimago.com/public/lisp/common-lisp/reader.lisp is my CL reader. 23:08:16 you could have something like with-timeout for a quick hack 23:08:30 won't adding a timeout require threads? 23:08:41 no 23:09:02 pjb: thanks 23:10:12 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:03 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has joined #lisp 23:11:11 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit ["spi ;)"] 23:15:17 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:16:20 masm [n=masm@bl5-107-227.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:17:24 what does something like "#- (and)" mean? when would the next form be evaluated? 23:17:39 never 23:17:53 ok. 23:17:58 thanks stassats`. 23:19:00 pjb: would claar be able to draw a list like '(#1=foo #1#) ? 23:19:09 Tril [n=tril@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 23:20:17 Adlai: iirc, in that context (and) is used for t and (or) is used for nil 23:21:30 That makes sense -- (and) starts at T and becomes NIL if there's any false keywords, and (or) starts at NIL and becomes T if there are any true keywords. 23:22:37 well, AND return T if non if its arguments is NIL, OR returns T of at least one argument is T 23:23:08 -!- masm [n=masm@bl5-107-227.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #lisp 23:23:35 s/return /returns/ s/non/none/ s/of/if/ 23:23:49 s/returns/returns / 23:24:27 i can't spell really 23:24:48 stassats`: maybe you need to write more SPELs 23:24:55 *Adlai* ducks 23:25:18 *stassats`* goes tuning bicycle gears instead 23:26:48 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:29:23 Adlai: not yet. I'm going to re-implement the drawing algorithm using a more general graph drawing algorithm, so it can support cycles and structure sharing. 23:30:00 Adlai: currently, if you make it draw a structure with shared parts (but without cycles) it will draw it, but duplicatings the shared parts. 23:31:23 interesting. I was thinking, just after I crashed claar, that it could actually be a great tool for teaching about shared structure. You could draw stuff right away to illustrate examples without somebody new to CL having to install systems on their computer to do that. 23:34:07 that's what it was made for 23:35:29 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f051066011.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:36:11 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:38:59 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A770.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:41:06 masm [n=masm@bl5-107-227.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:41:22 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:41:56 delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 23:43:13 Quadrescence [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #lisp 23:44:03 anyone knows threading? 23:44:14 how do i do message passing? i have condition variables and locks 23:44:36 when waiting for a message, one has to use a condition variable and a lock. but what to do when sending a message? 23:44:46 weirdo2: you use sysv message passing facilities? 23:44:50 signals? 23:44:52 fusss, no, portable-threas 23:44:55 threads* 23:45:11 pass around lisp objects over a socket/pipe? 23:45:32 but why do this when the threads share memory? setf around like crazy 23:45:57 i mean with threads 23:46:19 but i'm a newbie to concurrency and i don't know what to do when sending a message 23:47:19 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:47:52 weirdo2: write a queue object with apriopriate locks and have all threads have their own queue (aka "mailbox") with a wait for messages 23:48:09 do you know what a hall-way pass is? in school, each class has one "hallway pass" and only one student is allowed to have it at a time. you take the hallway-pass, go to the bathroom, come back, and give it someone else. condition variables are hallway passes. 23:48:37 fusss: first time I have heard of such system of hall-way passes xD 23:50:15 weirdo2: use once you've stored the message, use condition-notify to have the waitting thread woken up. 23:50:33 pjb, but what if two objects are pushing a message into a mailbox at once? 23:50:55 weirdo2: the mutexes ensure that the mailbox is accessed atomically. 23:51:47 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:51:58 to send a message you wait until the message is writable, change the status of the queue to "not readable", write the message to the queue and change back the status of the queue to readable again. 23:52:15 pjb, thanks 23:52:51 to receive a message, you wait until the message is readable, change the status of the queue to "not writable", read the message from the queue and change back the status of the queue to writable again. 23:53:02 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:07 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:53:56 that's the back logic for your two threads. you just need to fire them up, and set a start condition for the message queue. Since it's empty, an initial value of "writable" is what you want, as you can can't quite "read" from an empty queue. 23:55:21 weirdo2: enjoy! http://www.greenteapress.com/semaphores/ 23:55:40 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 23:55:58 you can implement all of it in a good weekend and the bordeaux-threads manual nearby 23:56:18 Andy Hefner has an implementation of queues in his repo somewhere 23:57:02 weirdo2: if you want mailboxes there's cl-muproc 23:57:11 -!- ruediger_ [n=ruediger@93-82-12-83.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:57:34 this is SO awesome 23:57:55 slime shown where is the unmatched comma (!) 23:58:38 unmatched coma? 23:58:48 there are matched comas? 23:58:57 yes, to backquotes 23:59:06 later 23:59:07 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.13.218] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.13/2009073022]"] 23:59:28 ahhhh 23:59:42 cool 23:59:42 thank your implementation