00:00:23 -!- vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:00:23 and as far as i understand store it in the portable walker environment AND the environment for the compiler (I'm talking Arnesi walker, though the past uses cl-walker) 00:00:45 using the register-walk-env function 00:00:56 drewc annotated #84685 "simple fix" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84685#1 00:00:58 http://paste.lisp.org/display/84708 00:01:02 vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 00:01:25 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:01:38 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-144-2.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:01:47 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:01:50 demmel: there is little need to make new pastes with the source code to functions i obviously already have access to :P 00:02:14 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 00:02:35 drewc: I'm starting to wounder your talking about different code than I am ;) 00:02:41 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 00:03:48 demmel: are you using arnesi or cl-walker? 00:05:05 drewc: I was using cl-walker. Then you started talking about arnesi and that you'd fix it in arnesi. So I started looking at and talking about arnesi. 00:05:34 drewc: Which might have caused confusion, I apologize. 00:06:44 ok, so i've fixed it in arnesi, but can you look at what i'm about to paste and tell me what you get : 00:07:37 drewc annotated #84685 "where does your environment come from?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84685#2 00:08:16 notice the point i've been trying to make all day holds true for my machine, using my arnesi. If you have different results, i'd like to see it and figure out why. 00:09:04 or if cl-walker does it differently 00:09:20 drewc: should i try with patch or without? 00:10:26 demmel: it doesn't matter 00:10:55 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@x-132-204-252-226.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:11:22 just trace augment-with-macro and run your form 00:11:36 oops.. i traced augment-with-variable in the paste.. 00:11:56 same idea though.. there is not environment to augment.. which is my point. 00:12:05 s/not/no 00:13:18 scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-76-220.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:10 drewc: I see. This puzzles me. Hang on please. 00:15:18 drewc: (I get the same result) 00:15:41 demmel: ah good. 00:16:05 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:17:24 try this please: 00:17:54 demmel annotated #84685 "passing an actual null lexenv (sbcl)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84685#3 00:17:56 fnord123 [n=fnord123@host86-146-160-57.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:18:03 oh your not on sbcl right? 00:18:25 there should be an equivalent function though 00:18:41 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-153-129.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:20:16 demmel annotated #84685 "my result with an actual null lexenv and sbcl" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84685#4 00:20:34 demmel: yes, if you pass a lexenv it will be augmented, as i've been trying to say all day... but the library can and will work without one... as it creates it's own portable environment while its walking the code. 00:21:53 demmel: what do you need the implementation-specific environment for? 00:21:59 drewc: which is odd to me, since in the cl standard, nil can be passed whereever a lexenv is expected and it is semantically /equivalent/ to passing a null-lexenv 00:22:37 drewc: Why do even bother to keep trac of it if you dont need it? 00:22:41 demmel: arnesi is not part of the cl-standard, nor are portable lexical environments 00:22:46 demmel: keep track of what? 00:23:06 freestylo [n=freestyl@68.35.189.63] has joined #lisp 00:23:10 the lexenv passed to arnesi::macroexpand-all for example 00:23:46 drewc: sure its not part of the standard. I'm just saying that its odd. (imho) 00:24:15 -!- freestylo [n=freestyl@68.35.189.63] has quit [Client Quit] 00:24:17 demmel: there are use-cases for the augmented environment... if you can't think of them, then you don't need it ;) 00:27:02 -!- Ringo47 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:27:22 Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:30 drewc: As to answer the question what I need the impl-specific lexenv for: In my own walker I only keep track of the impl. specific lexenv and use that for the whole expansion. So the question (from my point of view) is: what do you need your own environment for? I wanted to understand your rationale. And I believe it boiled down to portability. My walker works with ANSI CL, but in addition requires 3 functions in CLTL2, that are not 00:29:56 demmel: portability is one aspect, yes... not using internal symbols of implementation-specific packages is a very nice feature of a portable code walker... 00:30:30 demmel: otherwise, why not just use sb-cltl2:macroexpand-all ? 00:30:31 dalton [n=user7994@189-19-121-35.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 00:31:07 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-67-238.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:31:15 -!- dalton is now known as Rasputin 00:31:18 yours can work with pure ansi CL. But the again why you'd want to augment the impl-specific environment aswell, but not use it when nil is passed initially... 00:31:33 drewc: Oh i do a bit more than just macroexpansion ;) 00:32:15 right .. but it seems to me you are complaining that a portable walker is implemented portably ... that seems like an odd gripe. 00:32:40 drewc: What do you mean not using internal symbols of implementation-specific packages? 00:33:18 drewc: Oh I'm not complaining. I'm very greatful to you and all the other authors of arnesi/cl-walker ;) 00:35:24 i mean not using internal symbols from implementation-specific packages of course. the arnesi walker is, if you don't need to access or augment the implementation's lexenv, trivially portable. 00:35:35 s/'// 00:35:50 (sb-c::make-null-lexenv 00:36:20 is an internal symbol in an implementation specific package... 00:36:46 i see. But you could make that call in your library, so the user doesn't have to 00:36:49 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-145-104.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:58 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@190.135.52.95] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:37:05 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 00:37:06 as you do in the augment-with-... functions 00:37:46 malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:37:53 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:38:18 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-152-50.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:28 -!- merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:38:36 demmel: why? for the 99% of cases where our portable environment not only works just fine, but is, again, portable... why would we augment a lexical environment specific to the implementation, in the default case, just to throw it away when the walking is done? 00:40:04 demmel: the option to pass the &env is there because it is possible to get your hands on a lexical environment portably, and it is useful to do so in many cases. 00:41:07 -!- Wombatzus [n=wombatzu@adsl-67-124-148-26.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:41:17 demmel: have a look at, for example, arnesi:with-call/cc .. which is the reason arnesi:walk-form exists at all. 00:42:12 drewc: So the only reason you provide it at all, is to enable a user to define a custom walker-hanlder that actually uses the impl-specific lexenv. That user would the of course need to pass a proper null-lexenv to walk form. 00:43:08 -!- Rasputin [n=user7994@189-19-121-35.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit ["EJT!"] 00:43:24 demmel: not quite... imagine something like this : (flet ((foo () 1)) (with-walked-code () (foo))) 00:43:47 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:43:52 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 00:43:58 even without a custom handler, the need for with-walked-code to pass a lexenv to the walker must be obvious. 00:44:07 is with clbuild also a system wide installation of lisp packages possible? 00:45:07 virl: yes, quite possible. 00:45:26 drewc: True. But for that example you'd not need to keep augmenting original environment. Wouldn't it be enough to extract the environment once and convert it into your portable environment and then throw it away? 00:45:30 is a nice script. 00:45:51 removes that "magic" 00:46:05 of getting some lisp packages. 00:46:57 demmel: true, but what if another macro somewhere in the walked or unwalked code would like an accurate copy of the lexenv? Use your imagination here! 00:47:36 what is the normal way of housekeeping a lisp installation? 00:47:52 virl: many people here use clbuild. 00:48:02 like installing stuff. I'm new to it, so I don't have a clue. 00:48:23 virl: but i wouldn't call it 'normal' so much as 'working' 00:51:44 drewc: I get it, but - again - for this to work you'd have to pass a proper lexenv (might be null-lexenv) to your initial call to walk-form. (I dont want to argue about this being good or bad, I just want to make sure i "got it"). 00:52:56 -!- masm [n=masm@a213-22-83-196.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:53:15 demmel: yes, you need to pass a proper lexenv for this to work, and it might indeed be a null lexenv, but _very_ unlikely to be a specifically created null lexenv rather then one accessed (portably) via &env 00:54:11 drewc: Ah yes right. 00:54:45 drewc: Thanks for your time and patience! 00:56:22 demmel: np. Let me know if you find any other inconsistencies in the walker 00:56:39 drewc: Is that the repro you use: http://common-lisp.net/project/bese/repos/arnesi_dev ? 00:58:00 demmel: yeah, that's the main-line 00:58:19 drewc: I will. I wrote to cl-walker-devel about the flet issue. Should be similarly easy to fix. 00:58:35 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-67-238.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:59:07 demmel: indeed.. it should be that same fix really... i don't know how much cl-walker has diverged, but i can't imagine it's that much if it still exhibits the same bug 00:59:43 drewc: One last thing: What is the main difference between arnesi walker and cl-walker (if you know). 00:59:57 drewc: I'll actually ask that to the cl-walker guys 01:00:00 not you ;) 01:01:26 I'm off to bed. Its 3:00 AM here... zZzZz 01:04:31 freestylo [n=freestyl@68.35.189.63] has joined #lisp 01:06:30 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-67-238.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 01:13:26 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-76-220.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:15:36 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-ribvkaxcbaoipzpw] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:16:08 -!- mdavid [n=mdavid@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:17:58 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-67-238.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #lisp 01:18:19 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 01:19:47 drewc: Actually cl-walker exhibits the behaviour i assumed initially (that passing nil as a lexenv is the same as passing the null-lexenv) 01:20:09 demmel: interesting. Does it do that on all platforms? 01:20:29 freestyl_ [n=freestyl@68.35.189.63] has joined #lisp 01:20:37 drewc: As far as i understand it cl-walker only works on sbcl. 01:21:02 drewc: at least the impl-specific lexenv stuff is only ported to sbcl 01:21:08 not sure if the rest works without that 01:21:17 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 01:21:38 it might well, as it uses the same (or very similar) portable lexenv, that you use 01:21:49 -!- freestylo [n=freestyl@68.35.189.63] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:22:39 oh .. well there's a difference between the two right there... arnesi works cross-platform :) 01:24:51 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:22 demmel pasted "one difference of arseni walker and cl-walker" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84709 01:25:58 drewc: 1 - 0 arnesi i guess... 01:26:56 -!- freestyl_ [n=freestyl@68.35.189.63] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:28:46 demmel: there's good arguments for any of those behaviors really 01:29:13 drewc: I agree now. 01:29:17 gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 01:29:17 kmels_ [n=kmels@190.148.196.32] has joined #lisp 01:32:59 drewc: Actually it would work implementation independently, the same way arnesi does it. 01:34:10 drewc: but it signals an (continuable) error saying "This is not implemented for your lisp, sorry. You may try to continue, but..." 01:34:14 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-093-113.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:35:08 drewc: but now I'm really off. Thanks again. Night. 01:35:57 demmel: it could be made to work if arnesi:macroexpand-all optionally took a portable environment, and we had some way to access that environment in order to pass it . 01:36:01 demmel: gnight 01:37:27 I see yes. bye. 01:37:37 -!- demmel [n=demmel@dslb-188-098-197-247.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 01:41:15 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:43:10 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:45:50 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.153.167] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:46:27 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:46:29 -!- kmels_ is now known as kmels 01:46:34 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:46:50 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:50:55 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 01:51:48 and i go to lisp.reddit where there is an article on a portable macroexpand-all ... neat! 01:55:05 -!- froog [n=user@90-224-38-87-no94.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:05:22 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:11:15 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mvltdwibhdpccnxr] has joined #lisp 02:11:47 jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 02:13:49 wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-4db42d6c.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 02:14:23 gugamilare [n=gugamila@201-75-226-147-am.cpe.vivax.com.br] has joined #lisp 02:15:57 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-127-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:50 Rasputin [n=user7994@189-19-121-35.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 02:23:30 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 02:23:58 -!- jao [n=jao@21.Red-83-43-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:29:53 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:30:04 -!- wakeup_vanuber [n=wakeup@koln-4db43c8d.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:32:09 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:55 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-145-104.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:37:39 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 02:38:19 -!- gugamilare [n=gugamila@201-75-226-147-am.cpe.vivax.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:38:32 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 02:39:44 -!- nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:41:59 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 02:46:11 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:51:42 Adlai pasted "defvar/let behavior" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84711 02:52:00 why does that happen? 02:52:22 -!- easyE [i=[ZG2NM6f@panix3.panix.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:52:39 shouldn't foo be unbound when it's evaluated for the 2nd time? 02:52:58 Adlai: defvar declares the variable special in the global scope. 02:54:19 kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:55:07 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:56:03 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-69.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 02:56:25 no, it's still strange behavior. 02:56:36 It seems as though defvar is completely ignoring the local binding. 02:58:07 Adlai: at the time the form is executed, foo hasn't been globally declaimed special by defvar yet. 03:00:10 pkhuong: shouldn't it be declaimed as special when defvar gets executed, and then the special binding gets returned? also, shouldn't defvar see that it's bound, and not rebind it? 03:01:23 Adlai: defvar only looks at special bindings. The binding established by LET is lexical until foo has been declaimed special. 03:01:42 ok, thank you pkhuong. 03:02:09 logBot3573 [n=logBot@59.92.150.31] has joined #lisp 03:02:48 pkhuong: the suggested implementation for defvar uses boundp, though. Wouldn't that return nil (and thus, not try to bind the variable globally)? 03:03:06 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:17 sykopomp: you mean boundp would return t? 03:04:29 (let ((foo 5)) ....(progn (declare (special 'foo)) (if (boundp 'foo) ...))) According to clhs, that's sort of an expansion of defvar 03:04:50 or would the forms inside the progn not see foo? It's a macro, not a function. 03:05:39 sykopomp: boundp considers special bindings. 03:07:16 Ah, I get it now. 03:07:18 thanks 03:10:15 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-254-149.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:17 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has joined #lisp 03:15:04 -!- serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-144-2.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 03:15:46 -!- redline6561 [n=redline6@c-71-56-34-130.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:18:21 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:49 -!- Rasputin is now known as ausente 03:21:25 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:18 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-30-120.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:26:06 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:28:29 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 03:30:03 girzel [n=user@61.51.238.144] has joined #lisp 03:30:07 -!- ausente is now known as Ozielzinho 03:32:22 ceineke_ [n=chris@dhcp-0-24-1-2b-fc-77.cpe.cabletv.on.ca] has joined #lisp 03:38:01 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-22-219.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:08 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 03:38:29 -!- Ozielzinho is now known as Grigory_Tesla 03:42:05 -!- nanobit [i=ssenidae@gw.pulsar-zone.net] has quit ["bye"] 03:42:24 Word. 03:42:56 hey gigamonkey 03:43:33 Hey. 03:44:18 Quiet here this evening. 03:44:26 a wee bit 03:44:39 i'm guessing barbeque seasons makes people want to stay out longer 03:44:40 :) 03:45:01 mmmmm b-b-q. 03:45:12 *gigamonkey* is regretting to avoid meat for a month. 03:45:21 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has quit [] 03:45:22 s/regretting/regretting his decision/ 03:45:37 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:45:37 hehehe 03:45:52 thats funny, yeah the internal biology has to adjust 03:46:50 evening 03:47:04 Yo slyrus. 03:48:00 new book all finished gigamonkey? 03:48:15 Basically. Supposed to go to the printer 8/16 and hit the shelves a month after that. 03:48:23 woo 03:48:33 topic is lisp i common lisp again i hope? 03:48:38 :) one can hope 03:48:53 moocow: sadly, nope. http://www.gigamonkeys.com/coders-at-work/ 03:49:08 (That's a preview of the site that will soon replace the current content at http://www.codersatwork.com/) 03:49:16 congrats! 03:49:19 Don't look too closely at the cover graphic as it has some wrong names on it. 03:49:28 Thanks! 03:49:33 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-213.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 03:49:50 oh neat! 03:50:07 nanobit [i=sepicrof@gw.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:10 i'm still working my way through your lisp book, very good for us non programmers even 03:50:46 i like this book idea 03:50:48 Wow, cool. It's not really targeted at non-programmers. 03:51:01 i like to read about mathematicians and programmers perspectives on the world 03:51:51 gigamonkey: yeah i do a bit of bash and python at best. not sure whether i'll ever be able to code anything usefull but dreams are good 03:51:53 heh 03:52:14 gigamonkey: maybe its just that lisp makes sense? i don't know 03:53:06 when is this being released? 03:53:24 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1593272006/ref=pd_luc_sbs_02_03 <-- i already pre-ordered this ... looks fun 03:53:43 Good gravy, in 23.1, "the Emacs character set now having 4 times the space that Unicode does" 128 bit chars? 03:54:13 moocow: Coders at Work. Should be mid-September. 03:54:22 neat. 03:59:38 hotdog003 [n=michael@c-75-71-222-111.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:54 DUDE! ~r is so totally WICKED AWESOME! However, is there a way to get it to print a language other than English? 03:59:58 say, Yiddish or German, for example? 04:00:15 Not unless roman numerals qualify. 04:00:44 Ok. Thanks. 04:00:45 -!- hotdog003 [n=michael@c-75-71-222-111.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:01:29 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:02:21 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:22 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:05:52 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 04:05:55 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:06:06 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 04:06:08 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:36 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mvltdwibhdpccnxr] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:09:06 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-asqrafyfmwcpzlbi] has joined #lisp 04:19:34 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-224-243.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 04:21:45 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:11 -!- gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:43:11 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:48:16 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 04:48:16 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177074145.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:48:19 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177074145.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:44 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest64352 04:52:12 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:52:58 plage [n=user@81.82.210.57] has joined #lisp 04:53:01 Good morning. 04:53:53 -!- Guest64352 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 04:54:26 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:55:00 Wombatzus [n=wombatzu@adsl-67-124-148-26.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:59:47 morning 05:01:26 Does anyone have any plans of porting Cozure CL's IDE to Unix/Linix or is it a all Mac affair. 05:01:35 ? 05:03:01 Seems to me if you used GTK+ it should run under windows too. (If you install GTK+, of cource) 05:07:50 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-22-219.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:08:15 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:09:19 morning beach 05:11:26 Hey slyrus_. I am having breakfast at the hotel in Leuven near Brussels. 05:11:47 ah, nice. enjoy! 05:11:50 slyrus_: First place I see where you can have Champagne for breakfast (included in the buffer). 05:11:52 official EU business? :) 05:11:55 heh 05:12:24 Visting friends from the US. They guy was a grad student at the same time I was. 05:13:42 have fun! 05:13:52 Thanks! How are you? 05:14:20 freestylo [n=freestyl@c-71-228-102-184.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:06 plage: doing alright, still haven't had the hacking time I'd like, but real work is going well... 05:21:51 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:26:13 *jthing* tries to figure out how you put champagne into a buffer 05:27:28 M-x champagne-mode 05:32:41 -!- nanobit [i=sepicrof@gw.pulsar-zone.net] has quit ["bye"] 05:34:36 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177074145.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:34:38 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177074145.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 05:53:01 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-asqrafyfmwcpzlbi] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:53:14 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 05:54:53 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-191.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:55:43 morganb [n=user@ip70-185-98-233.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 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06:06:53 Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has joined #lisp 06:07:43 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-lhgsfvqzwdhwfkpe] has joined #lisp 06:17:54 -!- kmels is now known as kmels-zzzZz 06:18:31 mwilliams_ [n=mwilliam@cpe-67-49-180-219.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:19:41 jthing: or, you could just port it to GNUstep, rather than rewriting all the UI stuff 06:20:14 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:23:20 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:26:13 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [No route to host] 06:26:46 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:29:20 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 06:30:09 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 06:30:48 hello 06:31:11 hello mrSpec 06:33:50 -!- kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed 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error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:12:07 good morning 07:14:58 prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:17  07:16:25 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-191.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:16:29 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 07:17:38 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:17:44 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-lhgsfvqzwdhwfkpe] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:18:46 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:19:00 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:19:57 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.22.248] has joined #lisp 07:20:29 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:21:45 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:25:47 jao [n=jao@21.Red-83-43-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:32 HG` [n=wells@xdslgi093.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:27:12 gko` [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has joined 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[Remote closed the connection] 08:03:47 (length sb-impl::**character-database**) => 102256 .. we can say good morning in many languages now :) 08:04:32 well, could before also i guess .. heh .. (just noticed unicode-5.1 support being added to sbcl) 08:07:16 -!- mwilliams_ [n=mwilliam@cpe-67-49-180-219.hawaii.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 08:08:34 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-izmydwudjdycogfh] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:08:56 -!- morganb [n=user@ip70-185-98-233.ga.at.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:11:56 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:14:42 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:14:45 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:24 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:19:07 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 08:26:42 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 08:28:29 How do you bind just a piece of a namespace to a stream? say you have a config file and you want that only those symbols which are intended for configuration are visible in that file, so that nobody can use bad code in it 08:30:04 Is it me, or is weblocks slow? 08:30:21 virl: Is that "configuration file" in the usual sense of something containing declarative stuff only or "configuration file" in the .emacs or .sbclrc sense of containing code for evaluation? 08:31:09 virl: in the former case, all that's needed is to make certain that READ is being called safely, i.e. without *read-eval* etc. 08:31:13 in the sense of declarative stuff 08:31:27 (In the latter case, I'd be significantly more complicated.) 08:31:31 ah. ok. 08:37:00 http://paste.lisp.org/display/84726 Does this seem about right? Is that how the CLOS MOP works, about? 08:37:28 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 08:39:25 sz0 [i=5e36c52f@gateway/web/freenode/x-scfsuvcrqwkwzjvf] has joined #lisp 08:43:32 I don't understand what the property-value is about. 08:44:25 It's also a bit weird that you have a defclass-wrapping macro _and_ a metaclass. Defclass-wrapping macro can be useful. But in a sense, a custom metaclass is the procedural mechanism offered by CLOS to customize defclass behaviour already, and that sort of approach, if available, is usually preferable to wrapping macros. 08:44:56 lichtblau: that's not actually CLOS that's getting altered. 08:45:20 I use CLOS as the language for the MOP is all. 08:45:33 and I'm sort of trying to make the interface work close to how CLOS' MOP works. 08:46:21 (I don't understand those statements either.) 08:46:58 OT: this seems a bit overengineered but useful neverthelese http://peak.telecommunity.com/DevCenter/FrontPage 08:47:13 property-value is Sheeple's version of slot-value 08:48:04 lichtblau: I'm working on a prototype-based OO library that works a lot like CLOS. 08:48:55 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:17 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 08:50:11 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:52:13 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host230.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:53:06 Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483E9AD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:57:12 ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 08:57:16 -!- ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:59:14 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:02:25 -!- sz0 [i=5e36c52f@gateway/web/freenode/x-scfsuvcrqwkwzjvf] has quit [] 09:06:31 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:08:44 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E6BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:09:35 ah shit, git clone http://common-lisp.net/project/parenscript/git/parenscript doesn't work anymore. 09:09:56 what the hell did the devs change? 09:11:11 demmel [n=demmel@dslb-188-098-206-050.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:05 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:14:25 metawilm [n=willem@g225064056.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:17:42 gko` [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 09:19:37 virl: git pull :) 09:21:19 Demosthenes [n=demo@host-66-235-80-184.warpspeed1.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:28 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:23:40 -!- antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has left #lisp 09:23:43 antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:16 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:26:02 easyE [i=[XEYHAIZ@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 09:26:52 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 09:30:44 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 09:34:15 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 09:34:23 -!- gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:38:13 -!- logBot3573 [n=logBot@59.92.150.31] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:39:13 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 09:42:41 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 09:44:30 nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:12 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 09:55:15 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 09:57:17 mrSpec_ [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 09:57:27 -!- mrSpec_ [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:01:38 rvirding [n=chatzill@192.165.65.245] has joined #lisp 10:01:52 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 10:05:33 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:07:38 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:40 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:09:47 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:26 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 10:14:58 Ogedei [n=user@e178203021.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:16:05 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:16:45 is anyone familiar with ACL's 'Closure ... will be stack-allocated.' notes? More specifically, I'd like to shut them up. 10:16:54 -!- gko` [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:17:07 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 10:22:13 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 10:23:51 -!- prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:24:05 prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 10:24:34 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 10:27:14 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:27:46 Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 10:28:34 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 10:30:26 -!- demmel [n=demmel@dslb-188-098-206-050.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 10:30:33 There is nothing that prevent's closures from being allocated on a stack 10:31:02 Ogedei: I recall parts of acl-specific code that use labels/flet for that and declare the names dynamic-extent 10:31:08 might be for this warning specifically 10:31:15 The problem is the lifetime 10:31:16 s/warning/note/ 10:31:46 *fusss* *hearts* :junk-allowed t 10:33:18 the essence of the unix philosphy sitting right in there in planet Do The Right Thing :-) 10:34:22 "be liberal in what you accept", etc. 10:35:56 antifuchs: I was trying to get slime to not pop up a set of notes for every single function with flet/labels that I compile. anyway, I've found a hack to disable compiler notes altogether, which is satisfactory 10:35:59 it's the ignore-errors of string parsing (: 10:36:46 Ogedei: yeah... slime recently (a few days ago) got a mechanism that doesn't pop up the notes buffer if there are only redefinition warnings 10:37:08 right now, it's sbcl-only, but this note sounds like it could be useful with an implementation on the acl side, too (: 10:38:28 so if you have any time for slime hacking... (-: 10:41:46 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:42:19 is there currently a way to filter the errors/warnings/notes that get shown? such a thing sounds more useful than a specific rule like the mechanism you mentioned 10:42:38 Yes, the redifinition warning is annoying.. 10:43:21 Itterativly improving function, huh.. Back to C style with yua 10:43:36 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 10:43:58 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:44:42 I have ever yet redefined a function by "accident". 10:44:59 Ogedei: I think Helmut and tcr discussed it on the slime-devel mailing list a few days ago 10:45:05 this mechanism is a compromise (: 10:47:02 don't sbcl's redefinition warnings basically Do The Right Thing now, anyway? 10:49:29 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:49:56 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:50:07 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:50:32 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:51:48 I think SBCL should have a finer granularity on it's notes. If you optimize for speed give the say "method without generic function" bit 10:52:02 I don't remember. might ask tcr, he's been doing the work to support that 10:52:20 It is after all perfectly legal and usefull to define methods without a defgeneric 10:52:46 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:53:05 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 10:53:36 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-196.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 10:54:04 jthing: that style-warning has nothing to do with speed 10:58:17 Xof: i was wondering about that myself -- though I can see how slime's use of temporary files might work against the grain there for C-c C-c 10:59:56 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:03:01 byshovets [n=byshovet@znu.edu.ua] has joined #lisp 11:03:30 cods: is there a way to get a bounding box for min/max coordinates in a cl-vectors graphics 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[n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:10:36 hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:36 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 11:10:36 maxote [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 11:10:36 meingbg_ [n=user@static-195.84.249.117.addr.tdcsong.se] has joined #lisp 11:10:36 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 11:10:36 vcgomes [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 11:10:36 Bucciarati [n=buccia@212.45.155.126] has joined #lisp 11:10:36 herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 11:10:36 djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:36 ennen [n=nn@studio25.org] has joined #lisp 11:10:36 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 11:10:36 rbancroft [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:36 michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has joined #lisp 11:10:36 joshe [n=joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 11:10:36 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 11:10:36 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 11:10:50 -!- erk is now known as Guest17119 11:15:02 proq` [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 11:15:38 -!- vandemar [i=bella@2001:470:1f10:56b:0:0:0:4] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:15:38 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:15:38 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:15:38 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:15:38 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-55.yok.fi] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:15:38 -!- Borbus [i=borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:15:38 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@75.55.116.42] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:15:38 -!- ilitirit_ [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:15:38 -!- hdurer [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-680b263bdfae315a] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:15:39 -!- guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:15:39 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-207-110.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:15:44 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 11:15:56 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-55.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 11:15:58 Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-207-110.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:00 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181134120.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:16:09 guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 11:16:13 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-145-104.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:49 nikodemus: I thought slime's sbcl backend did magic with an extra argument to with-compilation-unit, to make the temporary files work out right 11:17:01 maybe 11:17:31 Borbus [i=borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:33 hm, wasn't that the :plist thing, which allowed buffer associations? 11:17:39 alexbobp [n=alex@adsl-75-55-116-42.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:41 hdurer [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-ujlslpqfblazwxzi] has joined #lisp 11:17:56 maybe 11:18:02 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:06 how'm I meant to know? :-) 11:18:11 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:18:12 uninteresting-redefinition-p (or whatever it is called) doesn't care about that, since the plist is explicitly user information 11:18:50 so, we have ended up with disparate mechnisms for vaguely related things -- how surprising.... 11:18:51 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Success] 11:20:00 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Client Quit] 11:20:20 in other news: it seems i may be able to make eclm after all, and still have money left for the sbcl anniversary 11:20:34 _seems_ :) 11:24:09 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:24:09 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@192.165.65.245] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:24:09 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:24:09 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:24:09 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.22.248] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:24:09 -!- cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:24:09 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:24:09 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-30-120.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:24:09 -!- wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-4db42d6c.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:24:09 -!- prip [n=_prip@host91-125-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:24:09 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:24:09 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:24:09 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.75.244] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:24:09 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:24:09 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:24:09 -!- Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:24:09 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:24:09 -!- gonzojive1 [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:24:09 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-148-132-231.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:24:09 -!- Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:24:09 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:24:09 -!- qebab [i=finnrobi@caracal.stud.ntnu.no] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:24:09 -!- azanar` [n=azanar@dsl231-050-107.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:24:09 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:24:16 cods pasted "antifuchs: A naive implementation for cl-vector bounding box" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84731 11:24:36 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:36 joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 11:24:36 azanar` [n=azanar@dsl231-050-107.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:36 qebab [i=finnrobi@caracal.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 11:24:36 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:36 Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 11:24:36 ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-148-132-231.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:36 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:24:36 Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 11:24:36 Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 11:24:36 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:24:36 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.75.244] has joined #lisp 11:24:36 gonzojive1 [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 11:24:36 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:24:36 S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has joined #lisp 11:24:36 prip [n=_prip@host91-125-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:24:36 wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-4db42d6c.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 11:24:36 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-30-120.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 11:24:36 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 11:24:36 cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 11:24:36 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.22.248] has joined #lisp 11:24:36 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:24:36 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 11:24:36 rvirding [n=chatzill@192.165.65.245] has joined #lisp 11:24:38 bah.. 11:24:44 cods: thanks! 11:24:57 cods: this is pretty much what I'm doing now (: 11:24:57 ah, you're there. (I was not sure with all these splits) 11:25:26 -!- prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:25:26 -!- masm [n=masm@a213-22-83-196.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:25:26 -!- DrForr_ [n=drforr@pool-173-55-19-85.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:25:26 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@134.226.83.42] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:25:26 -!- dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:25:26 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:25:26 -!- mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-4fe070d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:25:26 -!- a-s [n=user@92.81.135.104] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:25:26 -!- cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:25:26 -!- slava 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[n=demo@host-66-235-80-184.warpspeed1.net] has quit ["leaving"] 11:36:48 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-71-59-210-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:36:49 vandemar [i=spin@2001:470:1f10:56b:0:0:0:4] has joined #lisp 11:36:49 ilitirit_ [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 11:37:49 scottmaccal [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has joined #lisp 11:38:46 BrianRice [n=water@c-71-59-210-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:39:11 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:39:35 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 11:41:32 scottmaccal1 [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has joined #lisp 11:42:08 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:42:46 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-145-104.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 11:42:57 cods: this is working very nicely now! Thanks again (: 11:44:40 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:46:08 You might wanna clean up the stuttering 11:53:38 -!- girzel [n=user@61.51.238.144] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:55:22 demmel [n=demmel@a165.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 11:55:24 drewc: around yet? 11:55:43 apropos: http://random-state.net/files/sb-cga-0.1.tar.gz -- work-in-progresss SSE2-using vector algebra package for 3D stuff, sbcl only 11:57:26 saba [n=saba@212.112.58.166] has joined #lisp 11:57:54 yvdriess [n=Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 11:58:14 does anyone have in-depth experience with lispwork's CAPI? 11:58:22 I have some problems with the callbacks 11:58:46 what are they? 11:59:24 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.22.248] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.12/2009070611]"] 11:59:47 normally if you declare in a pane such as a button that your :callback-type is :data 11:59:54 you can pass the :data keyword under it 12:00:18 when using the toolbar pane, I can set the callback-type etc, but cannot pass the :data keyword 12:00:51 it has the callback superclass etc, so I am quite confused 12:01:11 does the order of keywords ever play a role? 12:01:12 a toolbar can not have data, you have to get it from the member 12:01:31 look at the class hirachy 12:01:42 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:01:42 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:01:42 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:01:42 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:01:42 -!- mkfort [i=xyOiN4jf@68-189-164-209.dhcp.spbg.sc.charter.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:01:42 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:01:42 -!- nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:01:42 -!- Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:02:10 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:08 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 12:03:08 mkfort [i=xyOiN4jf@68-189-164-209.dhcp.spbg.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 12:03:08 Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 12:03:08 ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:08 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:08 nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #lisp 12:03:08 dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:03:08 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 12:03:39 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:04:06 Xof: unicode update makes for quite a change in CRC40 in boinkmarks 12:04:07 http://sbcl.boinkor.net/boinkmarks/index#;SBCL,(:ARCH%20:EMULATED-X86%20:FEATURES%20(:SB-THREAD)),baker/1.0.30 12:04:51 which seems pretty wierd to me 12:05:38 -!- crypto__ is now known as z0d 12:05:40 maybe it's the comment that slows things down, and that's why cliini didn't put in any in the first place :P 12:05:59 jthing, so basically I have to populate the :items list myself with instances if I want a callback that passes data? 12:06:55 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net."] 12:06:57 Jasko [n=tjasko@98.235.105.148] has joined #lisp 12:07:02 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:29 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:07:32 okay I can find that in the examples dir, thanks 12:07:52 what is CRC40 measuring that amd64 SBCL is 30 times faster than x86 SBCL? 12:08:25 yvdriess: yes 12:08:39 -!- Adlai is now known as Adlai-AWAY 12:09:35 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:09:35 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:09:35 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:09:35 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:09:35 -!- mkfort [i=xyOiN4jf@68-189-164-209.dhcp.spbg.sc.charter.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:09:35 -!- nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:09:35 -!- Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:09:35 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:26 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 12:10:26 mkfort [i=xyOiN4jf@68-189-164-209.dhcp.spbg.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 12:10:26 Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 12:10:26 ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:26 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:26 nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #lisp 12:10:26 dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:10:26 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 12:10:42 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:11:24 lichtblau: doing what? 12:11:51 ahh.. 12:11:51 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 12:12:10 cache coherence probably 12:12:57 When differences are that bit it usually due to cache size 12:12:59 which paste service do you like? because I want to show some piece of code, with which I have a bit of a problem. 12:13:15 paste.lisp.org 12:14:02 prg___ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:10 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-71-59-210-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:14:10 -!- DrForr_ [n=drforr@pool-173-55-19-85.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:14:10 -!- prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:14:10 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@134.226.83.42] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:14:10 -!- masm [n=masm@a213-22-83-196.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:14:10 -!- dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:14:16 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:14:16 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:14:16 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:14:16 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:14:16 -!- mkfort [i=xyOiN4jf@68-189-164-209.dhcp.spbg.sc.charter.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:14:16 -!- nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:14:16 -!- Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:14:16 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:15:07 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 12:15:07 mkfort [i=xyOiN4jf@68-189-164-209.dhcp.spbg.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 12:15:07 Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 12:15:07 ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:07 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:07 nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #lisp 12:15:07 dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:15:07 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 12:15:55 why doesn't like hunchentoot this? http://paste.lisp.org/display/84733 12:16:01 fnord123_ [n=fnord123@78-105-27-133.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:16:32 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-22-219.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:32 BrianRice [n=water@c-71-59-210-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:32 masm [n=masm@a213-22-83-196.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 12:16:32 dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 12:16:32 DrForr_ [n=drforr@pool-173-55-19-85.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:32 rsynnott [i=rsynnott@134.226.83.42] has joined #lisp 12:16:44 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:16:44 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:16:44 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:16:44 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:16:44 -!- mkfort [i=xyOiN4jf@68-189-164-209.dhcp.spbg.sc.charter.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:16:44 -!- nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:16:44 -!- Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:16:44 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:16:47 ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:49 johs_ [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 12:16:55 that is cl-who 12:16:55 nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #lisp 12:17:02 dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:17:03 Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 12:17:15 virl: what's the problem? 12:17:30 mkfort [i=3iNajgTv@68-189-164-209.dhcp.spbg.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 12:17:51 I don't get a html page, when I feed that into an easy handler of hunchentoot 12:18:24 my guess is the unguarded *db* 12:18:41 have you verified that it runs and produces the html you expect it to? 12:18:51 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:27 that is, have you (1) verified that _when_ it runs, it produces the correct html -- when eg. called from the repl 12:19:52 and (2) verified that hunchentoot actually runs it when you expect it to? 12:19:55 -!- Grigory_Tesla is now known as dalton 12:19:57 when I run that from the repl I get a html output 12:20:10 right 12:20:21 hey, slyrus! 12:20:29 -!- scottmaccal1 [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has quit [Client Quit] 12:20:53 scottmaccal [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has joined #lisp 12:21:05 it seems that it doesn't like the loop. 12:21:11 for whatever reason. 12:21:13 huchencentoot uses threads. updates to that *db* could be a problem 12:21:29 (break) and inspect *db* 12:22:13 it has values. 12:22:59 ? 12:23:05 if the db would be a problem.. then it would only print no 12:23:17 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Operation timed out] 12:23:22 fnord1231 [n=fnord123@78-105-27-133.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:23:30 but it even doesn't print :h3 "links" 12:23:56 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-191.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:24:05 so, I really don't know why it makes that. 12:24:27 Are you in HTML or XHTML mode? 12:24:28 virl: does hunchentoot run the handler at all? 12:24:38 -!- kmels-zzzZz [n=kmels@190.148.196.32] has left #lisp 12:25:10 it seems yes. 12:26:36 -!- fnord123 [n=fnord123@host86-146-160-57.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:27:12 it doesn't like the loop. 12:27:16 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:27:34 do hunchentoot easy handelrs expect the output to go to *STANDARD-OUTPUT*? 12:28:03 looking at hunchentoot docs makes me think you should be returning the string instead 12:28:27 so maybe you should be using with-html-output-to-string instead? 12:28:39 http://paste.lisp.org/+1TDQ. 12:28:42 ok. 12:29:04 fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:29:41 as you see your entry seems a bit anemic 12:30:30 -!- a-s [n=user@92.81.135.104] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:31:29 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:44 The (no-cache) is usefull. Otherwise you ight not see the changes at all. 12:32:48 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 12:32:51 might 12:34:23 dysinger [n=dysinger@200.25.197.105] has joined #lisp 12:35:06 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 12:36:24 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-30-120.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:37:54 -!- fnord123_ [n=fnord123@78-105-27-133.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:38:52 dlowe [n=dlowe@63.107.91.99] has joined #lisp 12:38:52 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.141.47] has joined #lisp 12:44:38 -!- Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has quit [] 12:45:15 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 12:46:11 -!- fnord1231 [n=fnord123@78-105-27-133.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:50:12 okflo [n=user@91-115-91-139.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:50:14 hawkbill [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has joined #lisp 12:50:24 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 12:53:44 nikodemus: for %normalize in sb-cga, I'm fairly certain that doing almost everything a full register at a time will be faster. 12:55:49 nikodemus: I can't worry myself too much about crc40/x86; looking at the historical data it's pretty noisy 12:56:17 (between 4.7s and 5.5s over the last 2 years or so) 12:58:21 davelambert [n=djl@monoblock.open.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:03:01 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:04:53 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Success] 13:05:58 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 13:06:12 spilman [n=spilman@92.135.79.191] has joined #lisp 13:08:54 bindlefrundle [n=user@wsip-70-184-14-138.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:24 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:09:24 -!- mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-4fe070d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit 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has joined #lisp 13:10:30 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.141.47] has joined #lisp 13:10:49 -!- TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:12:11 Does anyone know what the status of paredit on emacs 23 is? 13:12:32 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@adsl-75-55-116-42.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:12:41 I just upgraded emacs and slime, and if I have autoloading of paredit turned on, my slime-repl buffer won't load. 13:19:35 TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has joined #lisp 13:20:08 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 13:20:08 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 13:20:08 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:20:08 rsynnott [i=rsynnott@134.226.83.42] has joined #lisp 13:20:08 DrForr_ [n=drforr@pool-173-55-19-85.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:08 dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 13:20:08 masm [n=masm@a213-22-83-196.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 13:20:08 BrianRice [n=water@c-71-59-210-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:08 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-22-219.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:08 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 13:21:42 bindlefrundle: I'm using paredit on emacs 23.1.50 without problems 13:21:58 fe[nl]ix: where did you get it from? maybe I have an old version 13:22:19 Hmm, I was kinda curious about something I noticed recently. With packages, and defmacro - since the macro is expanded later, is it supposed to follow the scope defined from the package? For example, say I have package "foo" that has a macro "bar" and another package "car" that calls "bar" would bar be able to call methods in "foo" if they weren't exported, or scoped (e.g. ::)? 13:22:54 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:54 yvdriess [n=Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 13:22:54 hdurer [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-ujlslpqfblazwxzi] has joined #lisp 13:22:54 guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 13:22:54 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:22:54 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 13:22:54 Tordek [n=tordek@host185.190-137-186.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 13:22:54 GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:54 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 13:22:54 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 13:22:54 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 13:22:54 sea-gull [i=seagull@server1.bshellz.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:54 frodef [n=ffj@226.80-202-87.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:22:54 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 13:22:54 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 13:22:54 joshe [n=joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 13:22:54 rbancroft [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:54 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 13:22:54 ennen [n=nn@studio25.org] has joined #lisp 13:22:54 djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:54 Bucciarati [n=buccia@212.45.155.126] has joined #lisp 13:22:54 herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 13:22:55 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-177.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:23:10 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 13:24:54 TDT: yep, that would work. Literal symbols are resolved at read time. Macro expansions often contain calls to unexported functions. Try expanding (defpackage :foo) for example 13:25:19 rstandy [n=rastandy@95.74.13.68] has joined #lisp 13:25:20 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 13:26:17 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 13:27:05 bindlefrundle: 23.1.50 is the current CVS HEAD. you can download and compile it 13:27:59 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:28:10 fe[nl]ix: oh, I have 23.1.50 of emacs, I was wondering where to get a paredit to work with it 13:28:32 metawilm:Ah ok, hmm..I had a few issues with the expansion earlier but will have to mess with it a bit. Over vacation, kinda rewrote my library to have exported macro definitions now. 13:30:08 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:30:10 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@95.74.13.68] has quit [Killed by kornbluth.freenode.net (Nick collision)] 13:30:11 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:30:17 johs_ [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 13:30:17 demmel [n=demmel@a165.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 13:30:17 byshovets [n=byshovet@znu.edu.ua] has joined #lisp 13:30:17 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:30:17 Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483E9AD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:17 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:17 Wombatzu` [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:17 bytbox [n=sclawren@silverchips.mbhs.edu] has joined #lisp 13:30:17 enn [n=eli@codeanddata.com] has joined #lisp 13:30:17 p_l 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mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-4fe070d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:30:34 sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 13:30:34 scode_ [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 13:30:34 slava [n=slava@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 13:30:34 cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 13:30:34 Xof [n=crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:30:45 -!- spilman [n=spilman@92.135.79.191] has quit ["Quitte"] 13:31:04 -!- TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:31:37 TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has joined #lisp 13:32:20 bindlefrundle: I simply (require 'paredit) in .emacs 13:32:51 rstandy` [n=rastandy@95.74.13.68] has joined #lisp 13:33:52 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Operation timed out] 13:35:24 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 13:35:25 I think that another thing that CLtL3 needs to cover is common REPL commands. 13:35:41 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:20 It's quite annoying to have implementations differing on how to go up/down the stack, choose restarts, quit, etc. 13:36:22 -!- Ogedei [n=user@e178203021.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:41:17 same repl commands for everyone in slime... 13:41:27 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-178-201.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:42:17 rstandy`` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-170-216.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 13:43:33 Indeed, "but".. 13:43:44 nikodemus: no need for consistency because you can always write an abstraction layer? 13:43:46 It's a shame to have gratuitious differences. 13:43:50 how do you read the output of a program which you called with sb-exd:run-program? 13:47:16 virl, (describe #'sb-ext:run-program) 13:47:29 virl, read on the :output keyword 13:47:29 -!- Adlai-AWAY is now known as Adlai 13:48:15 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:48:33 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:49:30 I did that already but it only gives me a funny nil, when I read from that stream 13:50:10 pdo [n=pdo@217.33.254.141] has joined #lisp 13:50:26 virl, what stream did you pass it? 13:50:49 (read-char (sb-ext:process-output (sb-ext:run-program "ls" nil :output :stream)) nil) 13:52:14 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 13:52:59 deepfire: wouldn't it be possible to write a REPL as a library? 13:53:05 virl: have you tried inspecting the return value of that call to RUN-PROGRAM? 13:53:07 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:51 deepfire: it might be better to define missing primitive to be able to implement a REPL as a library correctly (ie. handling of interrupt), than to hard code that user interface in a standard, don't you think? 13:54:01 virl, try running "/bin/ls" 13:54:11 deepfire: otherwise SLIME already plays this role. 13:54:46 matimago, the first argument applies to CFFI, sockets, many more things -- the things cltl3 is supposed to cover. 13:54:56 deepfire, that gives something. 13:55:55 btw. is there in CL a quick way to read a stream to EOF and output it at the same time? 13:56:25 -!- rstandy` [n=rastandy@95.74.13.68] has quit [Success] 13:56:30 matimago, as to the second, nobody did it, and so it'll likely fall out of cltl3's scope, as nontrivial and non-proven-by-time. 13:56:35 perhaps a dostream loop? 13:56:54 -!- rstandy`` is now known as rstandy 13:57:13 matimago, whereas standartiziing on _obvious_ keywords would be trivial and will bring immediate improvement in cross-implementation user experience. 13:57:26 virl: reading and printing are fairly fast operations. Just use regular loop constructions 13:57:38 virl: do you mean fast or trivially easy? ;) 13:58:00 the second. 13:58:08 matimago, the "start small" coda was reiterated quite some times on the cltl3 list, AIUI. 13:58:12 virl: no. go forth and program. 13:58:53 Is cltl3 intended as a fully backwards-compatible extension to cltl2/ansi? 13:59:35 dlowe: I don't think so, but I'm not authoritative. 14:01:46 Probably somebody (me?) needs to take this to cltl3-devel. 14:04:21 dlowe: backwards-compatibility is good but not a top priority 14:04:23 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:04:47 deepfire: make a proposal 14:04:51 -!- wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-4db42d6c.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["leaving"] 14:05:17 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 14:05:25 fe[nl]ix, is there an established form for making cltl3 proposals? 14:05:30 dlowe: not quite that, but i think repl-command consistency between implementations is pretty low on most people's priority lists -- and not least because of things like slime 14:06:02 fe[nl]ix: ok, so butchering the backwards compatibility to remove 30-year-old compatibility compromise warts probably isn't going to fly 14:06:02 that too 14:06:30 deepfire: CDRs ;-P 14:07:00 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:07:00 nikodemus: I'd be fine with it not even specifying a repl. That's really an interface issue that doesn't fit into the core of the language. 14:07:13 Xach: now I'm confused about units/em in zpb-ttf (: 14:07:18 alexbobp [n=alex@75.42.225.23] has joined #lisp 14:08:07 Xach: can you tell me what the documentation means by "number of units in the typographic em-square"? is it an area measure? 14:08:39 -!- davelambert [n=djl@monoblock.open.ac.uk] has left #lisp 14:08:44 and at any rate, is there any way to convert loader units to points given a font loader? 14:10:10 Nocivus [n=fabiopet@187.12.55.146] has joined #lisp 14:10:29 rola um spam para troca 14:11:01 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o antifuchs 14:11:18 hello, Nocivus. 14:16:44 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 14:16:50 hello 14:16:57 i am brazilian 14:17:09 finish him 14:17:11 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:17:25 why? 14:17:28 lol Xof 14:17:39 Nocivus: I am lispian 14:17:57 my inglish is bad 14:18:01 very bad 14:18:27 my lisp could also be better... 14:18:31 but i want know about spam 14:19:07 /s/lisp/lispish 14:19:18 Nocivus: we don't talk very much about spam here 14:19:38 Nocivus: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-spam-filter.html 14:19:38 gigamonkey, memo from michaelw: typo at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/coders-at-work/donald-knuth.html "Murry" -> "Murray" 14:19:38 gigamonkey, memo from michaelw: typo at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/coders-at-work/bernie-cosell.html "from him home" -> "from his home" 14:19:39 gigamonkey, memo from michaelw: typo at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/coders-at-work/joe-armstrong.html "decode" -> "decade" 14:20:00 gigamonkey: speaking of spam... 14:20:17 ok 14:20:39 gigamonkey: Speaking of the spam filter....wow, dlowe...anyways, it would be kinda cool if there was a tutorial for tying it directly into MailDir or something like that :) 14:21:04 minon memo for michaelw: thanks. (I think the copy editor caught most of those but I'll check.) 14:21:14 alguem do brasil aqui? 14:21:24 brasileiros!!!!! 14:21:26 Although expanding it isn't hard, I suppose, using direct file moves - but there's a nice library that deals with MailDir, IMAP, etc, for you. 14:21:49 -!- antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has been kicked from #lisp 14:22:10 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 14:22:27 TDT: Hm? I meant spam in its sense of scrolly noise 14:22:48 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:23:24 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:25:38 dlowe: I was just noting we used the same front "speaking of spam..." 14:25:41 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 14:28:53 -!- dalton is now known as Faxineiro_do_Sme 14:28:59 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:29:07 minion: memo for michaelw: Thanks. I think the copy editor caught most of those but I'll check. 14:29:07 Remembered. I'll tell michaelw when he/she/it next speaks. 14:29:16 -!- Faxineiro_do_Sme is now known as FaxineiroDaSmell 14:29:27 -!- FaxineiroDaSmell is now known as HouseKeepingGuy 14:29:34 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-241-91.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:35 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 14:31:31 -!- okflo [n=user@91-115-91-139.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:33:43 TDT: Yeah, feel free to write such a tutorial. ;-) 14:34:50 any idea what I did wrong? I don't http://paste.lisp.org/display/84742 14:35:17 I actually adapted that spam filter to try to filter the comments on my Coders at Work website but there was so much spam and so few real comments that a filter: (defun spam-p () t) would have been about as accurate. 14:35:53 virl: read-sequence has two required arguments 14:36:26 angerman [n=angerman@host230.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:36:29 hah, yeah...the tutorial idea is something I wouldn't mind trying a bit. I'm really interested in data mining, I wonder how hard it is to implement some of that stuff in Lisp. 14:36:43 virl: so does write-sequence, for that matter 14:36:45 the make-array form is wrong too. 14:36:58 but apart from that... 14:37:21 oh, no, wait, the indentation is wrong too 14:37:46 virl: also, in "real" code, you'll want to wrap the whole thing in an unwind-protect form so that ms is always closed when the function exits 14:38:18 Or simply (with-output-to-string (s) (sb-ext:run-program "/bin/ls" '() :output s)). 14:38:18 dlowe: that's a good idea even in toy code (: 14:39:48 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 14:39:53 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:40:17 a potential sbcl extensions question 14:40:38 go for it 14:40:56 i've lately found the :result-arg to defknown invaluable in writing operations that can stack allocate their results 14:41:47 (defknow %foo ... :result-arg 0) (declaim (inline foo)) (defun foo (a b) (%foo (alloc-foo) a b)) 14:42:44 assuming that ALLOC-FOO is an inline function that ends up with MAKE-ARRAY or a structure constructor, this allows (let ((f (foo ...))) (declare (dynamic-extent f)) to stack allocate 14:42:50 jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 14:43:00 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:43:16 i'm thinking that :RESULT-ARG should be exposed to users in some nice way 14:43:41 fiveop [n=fiveop@e179127117.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:43:41 well, maybe not _should_, but could 14:43:54 my initial reaction is to document defknown, and this trick, in the internals manual 14:44:17 "if you use this, you're almost but not quite on your own" 14:44:29 we should do that for deftransform, defoptimizer and define-vop too 14:44:52 (or in an appendix to the user manual, if you prefer) 14:46:31 angerman_ [n=angerman@host230.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:47:19 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-72-174.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:47:35 +1 14:47:46 *Xof* gathers all the votes and displaces luis 14:48:28 a coup ? 14:49:15 call it a return to the normal democratic process 14:49:25 hahaha 14:49:42 mdavid [n=mdavid@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:49:47 Hurrah for democracy. 14:49:53 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590f8796.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:50:50 a revolution, then 14:50:55 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:51:43 mind you, with one vote I may find that luis wins anyway 14:51:54 back to the slave mines for me 14:53:18 HouseKeepingGuy2 [n=user7994@187.34.46.116] has joined #lisp 14:55:38 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:47 You're mining for slaves? Interesting. 14:57:08 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:57:32 oh no 14:57:34 it's more commonly called teaching, i believe 14:58:06 Xof was my main supporter 14:58:18 Xof: is this because of the Unicode discussion? 14:58:44 CL is big for learning it in a short time. 14:59:09 drewc: around? 15:00:33 luis: nah, you've just got stale 15:00:43 with a democratic mandate, I can be much, much more evil 15:01:26 evilness was not a goal! 15:02:44 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host230.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:02:53 luis: I'm not surprized, people up North have strange natural resources. http://video.google.fr/videosearch?q=rare%20exports&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wv# 15:03:12 s/luis/gigamonkey/ 15:04:07 Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:04:13 Xof: anyway, in a more serious note. I browsed the unicode-ml archives yesterday and found some messages indicating that at least some of the noncharacters were reserved exactly so that they could use for internal application purposes. 15:04:15 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:32 (or did I mention this already?) 15:04:38 *could be used 15:04:47 matimago: eh? 15:04:56 Ah, the slave mining thing. 15:05:08 -!- prg___ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:09:14 pkhuong: ah, thanks for the clarification re READ/EVAL/COMPILE immutability! 15:09:38 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:46 -!- bindlefrundle [n=user@wsip-70-184-14-138.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:11:25 luis: certainly I understand the private use areas need some kind of support 15:11:47 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 15:11:52 maybe "" should read into a (simple-array nil (0)) (: 15:11:58 I'm talking about U+FFFF for instance. 15:13:27 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 15:14:46 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 15:14:49 pkhuong: that is the logical conclusion of the print-readably thing 15:15:49 -!- HouseKeepingGuy [n=user7994@189-19-121-35.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:16:31 me, I think that we're better off inventing a syntax for reading specialized arrays than printing things differently by their content 15:17:12 #" for base-strings, maybe? 15:17:34 and something more verbose for the general case? 15:18:23 I don't see why base-strings need special-casing 15:19:02 because people are far more like to want to write base-string literals than general specialized arrays as literals? 15:19:26 cmucl has a generalized syntax, doesn't it? /me goes check 15:19:29 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:19:53 nikodemus: so what if they do? If the same mechanism solves both, why invent two mechanisms? 15:20:00 weirdo [i=foo123@c139-243.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:20:37 attila_lendvai: you are maintaining cl-walker, right? Are you on the cl-walker-devel list or only cl-dwim-devel? 15:21:14 demmel: yes, you mail is starred. i'll record it as a failing test and look for a fix... (unless it's solved in arnesi) 15:22:06 Xof: i don't feel particularly strongly about a specialized syntax for base-strings -- just a mild preference for perceived convenience 15:22:20 attila_lendvai: this particular bug is solve in arnesi and there are a few other related cases. I will (try to) write a patch for cl-walker in the next couple of days if you dont mind. 15:22:44 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-55.yok.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 15:22:53 oh, sorry, I read "write base-string literals" as "ask the computer to print base-string literals" rather than "type in base-string literals" 15:22:58 though I question whether they actually will 15:23:14 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-55.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 15:23:17 -!- saba [n=saba@212.112.58.166] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:23:32 but at least you now make sense to me :-) 15:23:37 demmel: not at all, that sounds great! in that case i'll keep my hands off this until further notice... 15:24:06 hah 15:24:29 mind you, i think it's a nice trick for symbol names 15:24:32 attila_lendvai: I'll write to list. I'm off now. 15:24:58 i wonder if it would be legal for symbol-name to return a copy of the actual name 15:25:05 anyways, cmucl does #A(SINGLE-FLOAT (3) (0.0 0.0 0.0)) 15:25:47 -!- demmel [n=demmel@a165.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 15:25:59 adjustability or fill-pointer is not printed 15:27:22 maybe the least obtrusive thing to do would be grab ~ as a dispatch character: 15:29:23 eg. ~A for extended arrays, ~. for SYMBOL-VALUE, ~" for base-strings 15:29:36 ~A(SINGLE-FLOAT (3) (0.0 0.0 0.0) :ADJUSTABLE T), ~.SB-EXT:SINGLE-FLOAT-POSITIVE-INFINITY 15:29:40 -!- carrl [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:29:53 carrl [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has joined #lisp 15:30:43 s/extended/readably-printed-non-element-type-t/ 15:31:52 hey i need AND specializers. does SBCL can has them? 15:32:10 for CLOS? you can implement them 15:32:45 thanks 15:33:02 is it a cltl3 item already? 15:33:10 or factor the inheritance from classes A and B to instead inherit from a new class, A&B. 15:33:24 yes but to make a method i have to name the new class 15:33:25 that's another section in the manual that is missing 15:33:41 or use make-method-lambda, grr 15:34:22 or portably ugly: (defmethod foo ((a a)) (foo/a a)) (defmethod foo/a ((b b)) ...) 15:34:33 we've created a channel for polish lispers so they won't feel like they're the only people using it in this crappy country 15:34:47 there are only two of us now there, though. feel free to join, though 15:34:58 aha, now i remember what i was going to do 15:35:24 nikodemus, heh 15:37:17 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 15:37:20 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:36 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:38:40 weirdo: And where's that channel? 15:39:29 weirdo: sounds like the channel has an attitude problem 15:39:54 weirdo: channel name? 15:40:09 luis: Seems it does. 15:40:18 No wonder there's only two of them :) 15:40:19 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:40:52 nikodemus: grabbing ~ will make Xach unhappy 15:41:02 not that that's a reason not to 15:41:33 nyef [n=nyef@pool-64-222-164-136.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:54 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.141.47] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:42:40 Xof: first luis, now Xach ... you just don't like anyone today. 15:45:18 does Xach use ~? 15:45:31 weirdo: there seem to be a surprising number of Polish people using lisp given its population, actually 15:46:12 Pity the lisp.pl domain has been bought out by scammers. 15:46:34 -!- vandemar [i=spin@2001:470:1f10:56b:0:0:0:4] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:46:39 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 15:46:41 It's being wasted and will probably stay that way. 15:46:52 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-90-175-82.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:47:17 antoszka: scammers ? 15:47:34 milanj [n=milan@93.87.150.196] has joined #lisp 15:48:06 antoszka: nie "scammers" tylko "squatters" :) 15:48:28 fe[nl]ix: Maybe that's not the right word. 15:48:45 p_l: I wouldn't call it "squatting" (as in "typo-squatting") but speculation. 15:49:03 Whichever... 15:49:40 Actually, just opened the page. 15:49:43 And... no more. 15:49:46 antoszka: it's squatting as in house squatting, except it's near-impossible to evict someone 15:49:48 Somebody bought it. 15:49:49 I don't see any squatter on http://lisp.pl 15:49:56 matimago: Yeah, just noticed. 15:50:03 matimago: But this is an entirely new situation. 15:50:12 Ah! Great! 15:50:43 yeah, but they could leave some contact information 15:50:51 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590f8cf8.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 15:51:05 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:51:51 p_l: Probably you're right. But still I think speculation better describes the character of such actions. They bought the domain for the sole reason of reselling it, rather than occupying it (for pleasure?) as squatters do :) 15:52:04 Nothing interesting in whois. 15:52:47 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:59 Jest to najwikszy(na razie jedyny)  that's crap. 15:53:16 where is the clbuild-devel list hosted? 15:53:17 heh 15:53:34 antoszka: You mean it's meaningless, or that you disagree with it? 15:53:41 sellout: that it's false 15:53:55 What does it mean? 15:54:09 sellout: It means: This is the biggest (and for now the only one) [lisp website] 15:54:24 (in poland) 15:54:32 Ah, heh 15:54:45 the amount of content doesn't warrant "biggest" and certainly not "the only one" 15:54:52 sellout: There's a number of tutorials, introductions and even blog entries that contain tonnes more information than that. 15:54:54 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["leaving"] 15:55:16 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:55:21 *attila_lendvai* and co. is preparing certainly the biggest one in hungary... :) 15:55:38 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:56:01 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 15:56:14 antoszka: that site doesn't seem like the one of a squatter. a squatter wouldn't bother to make even a "work-in-progress" site 15:56:15 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 15:56:52 fe[nl]ix: No, it's just changed. Last I looked (< a month ago) it was still being squatted on. 15:56:54 domain squatters usually have automated processes that establish keyword heavy 'search portals' 15:57:08 Yeah, there's was something like that. 15:57:13 s/squatter/speculator 15:57:21 Rather. 15:57:43 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 15:57:48 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [No route to host] 15:58:59 last modified: 2009.06.30 10:39:11 16:00:44 coderdad_ [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 16:00:45 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:01:29 Fade: nah, squatter :) 16:01:38 :) 16:02:02 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.233.240] has joined #lisp 16:02:28 Dunno. Speculator is a better description. Squatters actually use the houses they're in, whereas speculators don't 16:03:12 antoszka: in the bottom right corner of the main page I see a name(Conrad Barski). maybe he's the current owner 16:03:31 Odin-: But speculators expect to sell when it becomes valuable, squatters don't expect value to increase. 16:03:57 No one's going to buy goofle.com for a pile of money. 16:04:06 fe[nl]ix: Yeah.... http://www.linkedin.com/pub/conrad-barski/0/512/336 ? 16:04:34 -!- proq` is now known as proq 16:04:36 Fair enough. Depends on what aspect of things you're looking at. 16:04:37 Oh, it's Barski's site? Then maybe it'll be worthwhile soon. 16:04:58 antoszka: the url is lisperati@gmail.com 16:05:08 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:06:01 fe[nl]ix: It's the author of the logo. 16:06:23 and lots of other stuff: http://www.lisperati.com/ 16:08:51 his last name is vaguely Polish, come to thing about it 16:09:17 Who's going to ELM? And what hotel did you book? 16:10:00 cmm: that's what I thought too 16:10:32 tcr: I booked at the conference hotel 16:11:19 fe[nl]ix: How do you travel? 16:12:15 lufthansa 16:15:47 tcr: you mean eclm? 16:15:53 yes 16:17:08 nikodemus: re function types, is EQ on functions defined? 16:17:09 -!- metawilm [n=willem@g225064056.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 16:17:18 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:18:19 rsynnott, i only know/heard of 10-20 people 16:18:56 tcr: i'm planning to go 16:19:08 and when i tried to show lisp to my boss he told me he wouldn't find anyone to replace me in pooland 16:19:13 pkhuong: yes 16:19:17 so it seems to be a common misconception, at best 16:19:57 good thing, he can't fire you 16:20:00 so we cannot just add a wrapper that asserts the types 16:20:28 though with FTYPEP users can of course do that for their use-cases 16:20:53 -!- vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:21:02 vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 16:22:20 fe[nl]ix, nikodemus: Will you participate on any of the official dinners? 16:22:26 -!- jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:22:33 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-48-237.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:22:44 tcr: certainly 16:22:46 jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 16:22:48 jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 16:23:06 the dinners are the best part :) 16:23:09 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:23:20 ECLM is the one in hamburg? 16:23:22 tcr: yes, as nikodemus said :) 16:23:23 Dunno, I would rather like to try out on of the local restaurants 16:23:34 weirdo: So what's that channel we were all asking about? 16:23:41 tcr: the food is terrible; it's the conversations that are good 16:23:52 Xof has it 16:24:08 (I won't be there, so the conversations will be incrementally better :-) 16:24:26 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@192.165.65.245] has left #lisp 16:24:49 Why? You terrify all people with your grim look? 16:24:55 exactly! 16:25:07 i haven't yet reserved anything, but i normally try to arrive one day early and leave on the evening of the next day ofter the meeting -- so time enough to look for good food as well 16:25:22 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslgi093.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:25:32 (in fact, at the last ECLM in hamburg, there was someone who, talking to someone else, pointed at me and said "that's him". The other person: "he doesn't look so scary") 16:25:42 hah, i remember 16:25:42 which one of you was associated with cltl3, again? 16:25:51 i don't have any logs, sorry 16:25:52 fe[nl]ix 16:26:00 thank you 16:26:01 minion: logs 16:26:01 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 16:26:28 -!- pdo [n=pdo@217.33.254.141] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:27:20 time to go home, bye 16:27:22 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181134120.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:29:16 since I'm back at coding in CL, I have an issue with my SLIME setup : 16:29:46 C-c s is my SLIME selector key, so C-c s r should take me to the REPL (it did in the past) 16:29:56 but it gets me to the *inferior-lisp* buffer 16:30:06 any idea what might be wrong in my setup? 16:30:06 kenjin-che [n=kenjin@58.232.36.145] has joined #lisp 16:33:32 -!- HouseKeepingGuy2 [n=user7994@187.34.46.116] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:34:34 Do you use the slime-fancy contrib? Or at least the slime-repl contrib? 16:36:12 fe[nl]ix: How much does a night cost? 16:36:28 tcr: isn't this a grim look http://common-lisp.net/~sionescu/20090529044.jpg ? 16:36:38 tcr: about 120 16:36:50 What is ECLM? 16:36:51 one night? 16:37:08 tcr: on average 16:37:20 pbusser3: weitz.de/eclm2009 16:37:20 Is it a good idea to use hash tables for a few gigabytes data set? 16:37:24 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 16:37:45 Uh, that's surprisingly lot 16:38:29 I wouldn't want to use any solely in-memory data structure for a data set that large if I could help it. 16:39:03 then how do I do it..i'm newbie 16:39:07 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:39:11 tcr: to me it's worth it(I'm very lazy and fussy about comfort) 16:39:22 Ah ok. It's in Hamburg. I have lived there. 16:39:44 (And then there's mere ability: I only have 4 gigs of memory in my most memorious machine.) 16:40:33 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:53 I got "set_auto_gc_trigger: tried to set gc trigger too high" as I was dealing with a big hash table 16:41:53 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:42:12 I was working in a solaris system with hundreds of gigabyte memory. 16:43:15 Is array better than hash table for a big data set? 16:43:19 There's more to storage management then mere memory availability. Address space is also a fixed resource, and the heap is usually carved out of some chunk of address space and has its own limits... 16:43:41 Whatever answer you get will only be valid for certain kinds of data sets. 16:43:48 kenjin-che: what about using externally-stored hashtable, like through some database? 16:44:12 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:44:19 p_l: i dont understand. can you explain more easily please? 16:44:39 p_l: I'd use mmap or malloc before that, if I had the RAM. 16:45:08 mmap malloc? is it easy to google them? 16:45:09 kenjin-che: there are database engines that give you a key/value store, which can be used as a hashtable (it might also be a btree etc.) 16:45:20 *weirdo* hates RDBMS 16:45:25 especially SQL 16:45:28 weirdo: who said RDBMS? 16:45:39 SQL is the coolest thing since sliced bread. 16:45:43 i did. maybe go for elephant or something 16:45:44 *pbusser3* ducks 16:45:51 :-) 16:46:11 Elephant uses an SQL database too, doesn't it? 16:46:14 sql is too complicated for what it does and has boring syntax, almost like COBOL 16:46:25 elephant used BDB afaik? 16:46:38 I thought it could be configured. 16:46:46 p_l : that sounds very technical to me. can I just avoid "set_auto_gc_trigger" error by using array instead of hash table? 16:47:29 maybe use binary chop or radix tree or some tree or a heap 16:47:51 CL-CONTAINERS has some nice structures 16:51:48 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:51:52 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:53:44 kenjin-che: are you on a sparc machine? SBCL on SPARC only produces 32 bit code, so there's a theoretical limit of < 4 GB for the heap (and halve that again for cheneygc) 16:53:49 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:16 weirdo: the dataset won't fit in the lisp heap. A pointer-ful data structure is very probably not the solution. 16:55:27 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:55:29 pkhuong: I'm not pretty sure. but yes I guess it's sparc machine. 16:56:33 pkhuong: do you think if I use array instead of hash table I may avoid the "heap" problem? 16:57:40 no. Your data set is probably larger than the *addressable* space and definitely larger than the allocatable space. 16:58:01 -!- cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:58:26 I didn't have that kind of problem in my linux pc 16:59:01 Your linux PC was an x86-64, or your data set was much smaller. 16:59:26 yes it's x86-64 17:00:10 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 17:00:11 But my friend who's using Fortran never have had that kind of problem 17:00:25 p_l, the channel name is ##lisp-pl, sorry for not responding 17:01:06 kenjin-che, because he's also using a 64 bit machine, probably? 17:01:31 whoppix: He's using the same machine. 17:01:32 Someone else can try and teach basic computer architecture. 17:01:35 -!- yvdriess [n=Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:01:37 or PAE, maybe ;) 17:01:45 (did _anyone_ ever use that?) 17:02:01 kenjin-che, then maybe his algorithm does things differently and thus does not need that much space. 17:02:17 rsynnott, not sure, but a few windows server versions supported it, so I suppose so 17:02:18 rsynnott: it's usable, but you have to code for normal 32bit address space 17:02:33 you can't address 36bit pointers directly on PAE 17:02:34 rsynnott: doesn't work for a single process. 17:02:55 whoppix: So, it can never have anything to do with the language? 17:03:17 rsynnott: basically, you have to play around with mmap to replace banks of memory 17:03:19 kenjin-che, not really, no, I don't think so. 17:03:26 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-uetchbwfhyutaekw] has joined #lisp 17:04:03 rsynnott: Windows gave access through "Windowing extensions" or something like that, to allocate/deallocate and map those buffers, linux used tlbfs? I think 17:04:24 kenjin-che: no, you could for instance use scieneer common lisp, which does compile to SPARC64, and should be able to work with a much larger heap than SBCL. SCL may even use a generational GC there, instead of SBCL's simple stop-and-copy. 17:05:12 kenjin-che: and there are tiral versions of SCL nowadays, and iirc their pricing wasn't so bad 17:05:43 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.233.240] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:06:46 The problem is most of the time it's very hard for me to install programs without root privilege :) 17:07:19 I could use SBCL right out of box 17:08:37 ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:21 Advantages to win32 Address Windowing Extensions: You can double-map pages and you can keep data in unmapped pages. Disadvantage to AWE: Pages allocated for AWE can't be swapped to disk. 17:10:34 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 17:12:19 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:12:32 -!- virl [n=virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:17:22 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:31 heya everyone. 17:18:07 Anyone know how to add a foreign type to CLSQL so that it can recognize "strange" columns provided by MSSQL? 17:20:53 -!- kenjin-che [n=kenjin@58.232.36.145] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:21:19 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:30:05 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:30:45 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-156-115.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:32:23 I'm thinking it's about half "just try to do whatever seems logical based on the existing column type definitions" and about half "see if there's an internals guide somewhere". 17:34:34 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.141.47] has joined #lisp 17:36:47 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:38:22 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.150.196] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:39:01 There's notes/add-type-hints.txt in the CLSQL sources 17:41:45 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 17:43:12 *deepfire* craves for the Muchnick book. 17:44:10 It might be amusing to see a native MSSQL protocol client in CL. 17:46:57 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Success] 17:47:26 i'd like to see a native mongodb library :) 17:48:07 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 17:49:39 guaqua: Would you like to see it enough to put your time or money on the matter? 17:49:58 *lichtblau* wasn't aware that CLSQL has _any_ Microsoft/TDS backend, whether native or otherwise 17:51:53 Rasputin [n=user7994@187.10.19.20] has joined #lisp 17:52:03 nyef: i've been thinking about it, alot 17:52:29 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:53:16 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:54:42 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-241-91.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:56:03 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:09 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenMath#Example 17:59:31 that's the expression of everything that is wrong with xml 18:01:04 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:13 <[df]> hear, hear 18:01:30 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 18:01:47 weirdo: ... it's even badly designed according to XML standards, I thinkl 18:01:49 *think 18:02:24 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:02:26 ah, it's for describing the formula. Still, idiotic 18:03:13 -!- frodef [n=ffj@226.80-202-87.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:03:41 I tend to prefer LaTeX. 18:05:30 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:05:30 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 18:07:24 wurble [i=murbank@mire.hcoop.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:28 p_l: were you one of the people I was talking to about Coders at Work who works in (or near) the publishing/typesetting/printing industry? 18:08:07 Is there a canonical way to create a code generator for another language? 18:09:07 wurble: Not canonical but if you want to generate reasonably good-looking source text the FOO library described in PCL can be handy. 18:11:16 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177074145.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:13 wurble: Write a parser, which produces an AST from the input language, then write a transformer which works on the AST and makes it suitable for the output language, then write a printer which takes the transformed AST and produces a representation in the output language 18:12:58 wurble: FOO helps with the "write a printer" part of tcr's recipe. 18:14:08 gigamonkey: I had contact with publishing industry, but nothing too extensive 18:16:06 gigamonkey: I can help a little, though 18:17:29 You can also try to use the standard pretty printer. 18:17:49 rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-234-212.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 18:18:30 rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:02 -!- Rasputin is now known as amaury_jr 18:19:07 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-170-216.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:19:58 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.233.240] has joined #lisp 18:20:06 That reminds me, I have another pprinter patch for sbcl 18:21:05 skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has joined #lisp 18:22:13 Ok, with a small patch to ECL and lh-usb they are now a happy family. 18:22:50 That's a scary thought. 18:22:55 What'd you have to patch on ECL? 18:23:55 nyef, analog to fd-stream-fd was missing. 18:24:06 Ah. 18:24:14 I'll push to juanjo asap. 18:25:02 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:25:07 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@200.25.197.105] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:25:42 I'm finding myself wondering about adding MITSHM and XF86DGA support to my CLX branch. 18:26:03 Or as an additional library to go with. 18:26:27 p_l: I think you were the person who half-convinced me that Apress couldn't possibly really be planning to use Word to typeset Coders at Work. 18:26:29 isnt dga obsolete ? 18:26:48 gigamonkey: yeah, convinced that they won't use it for actual typesetting of final run 18:26:57 lemonade` [n=lemonade@pool-70-108-32-239.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:09 xristos: Oh, probably. Everyone just uses direct GL extensions. But you can't do those with CLX. 18:27:49 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:27:52 gigamonkey pasted "Latest on Word vs. InDesign" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84759 18:28:17 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.141.47] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:28:21 p_l: I'm still trying to understand that quote I just pasted (from my editor). 18:28:45 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:28:56 O_O 18:28:56 I've basically given up on trying to affect how the book is typeset; either they will do something reasonable or they won't but I can't understand what they're going to do. 18:29:09 I'm starting to wonder, too 18:29:35 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:29:53 gigamonkey: o_O must show this to a designer friend of mine (: 18:30:22 brianj_otter [n=brianj@wsip-24-234-246-213.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:29 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-156-115.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:30:34 _word_ is used for typesetting?! 18:30:50 I assume that "production systems" in this context means software that, when used, results in a product (: 18:30:57 gigamonkey annotated #84759 "My question back to the editor" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84759#1 18:31:14 it's probably for the same reason that kids these days prefer hissy mp3s over 48kHz DAT quality. Now get off my lawn. :) 18:31:14 michaelw, memo from gigamonkey: Thanks. I think the copy editor caught most of those but I'll check. 18:31:25 antifuchs: I parsed it as a variant on "production pipeline components". 18:31:30 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 18:31:33 nyef: yeah, something like that 18:32:10 rsynnott: sure. I think Charles Stross wrote a nice piece on the book production process a while back. the summary was "stop worrying and submit it in word" 18:32:41 antifuchs: but there's a big difference between submitting the thing in Word and having it actually typeset in Word. 18:32:44 "Here you go, it's all plain text, but I renamed it to have a .doc extension." 18:32:48 gigamonkey: there is 18:34:00 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:08 gigamonkey, the problem with your question was that it contained an "Or".. 18:34:40 Sad irony, that is. 18:35:11 deepfire: well, I was hoping for more than a 1-bit answer. ;-) 18:35:32 -!- masm [n=masm@a213-22-83-196.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:36:06 tcr: I don't have an input language. Should I create one? Or should I create an AST directly? 18:36:34 hey i have an idea 18:36:56 how about making a webapp that registers library requests with people being able to vote on libraries? 18:37:25 (that's for managing project lists in stuff like clbuild) 18:37:51 i might write something up if anyone wants to use it 18:38:55 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:47:02 wurble: you'll have to come up with some way of representing the code you want to generate. That's the "input language". 18:47:47 As lispers, we typically use a sexpr representation for our input languages. 18:47:56 The two main obvious choices there are either s-exps (i.e. trees of cons cells, symbols, and maybe some other basic types like strings, numbers, and characters) or your own objects defined with DEFCLASS. 18:48:09 We then use lists and whatnot as our ASTs, allowing us to use READ as our front-end parser... 18:48:37 The former has the advantage that you can READ it, as nyef, just said, and that you can read it, meaning you can dump it to a file and look at it, easily. 18:48:40 Not always, but often. 18:48:48 And you can write it by hand, etc. 18:49:41 Using classes defined with DEFCLASS has the advantage that you can then easily define the code generation in terms of generic functions. 18:50:01 gigamonkey: btw, reading your blog entry my mind substituted "prequel" where you'd written "sequel to PCL" 18:50:23 antifuchs: you want me to teach you how to program so you'll be ready for PCL? ;-) 18:50:29 and I think a "Practical MacLisp" book would be pretty awesome 18:50:39 or that! 18:51:09 wurble: You can also use a multi-stage strategy: start with s-exps and then map those into instances of custom classes and then walk over those generating code with generic functions. 18:51:28 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:51:33 Hmmmm. Maybe I should market Coders at Work as the Prequel to PCL. 18:51:44 yay! 18:52:01 -!- Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:54:15 haha practical MacLisp 18:54:20 :) 18:54:26 PRACTICAL LISP 18:55:12 What'd be before that? "real world lambda calculus"? 18:55:27 comes with a cyanide-poisoned apple! 18:56:46 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 18:56:48 you people held strong opinions about GPL 18:57:07 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-156-115.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:57:25 and i recently found a stallman's writing (remind me if this is offtopic) 18:57:34 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:57:55 he argued that people should be forced to release source code, i.e. give it to escrow and it would be automatically published to all after a few years after the release 18:57:59 it makes sense to me 18:58:11 that is, GPL is silly under the current political climate, but if such a change passed, it would be good 18:58:15 what do you think? 18:58:25 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:59:58 antifuchs: did you ever figure out the units/em question? i just got back from a long trip. 19:01:14 Hey Xach 19:01:45 yo gigamonkey. congrats on the finish line for the book! 19:02:05 Thanks. 19:02:15 *Xach* decides to unsubscribe from a bunch of stuff instead of trying to read 500 feed updates 19:02:21 gigamonkey: ah, your new book is done? 19:02:37 demmel [n=demmel@dslb-188-098-206-050.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:46 Adlai: yup. Should be going to the printers 8/16, they tell me. 19:03:08 what, a new book? 19:03:20 Faed [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 19:03:29 Spread the word; buy many copies. Then I can retire and write Lisp books full-time. 19:03:37 weirdo: yup. http://www.codersatwork.com/ 19:03:47 gigamonkey: of course :) that would be a win-win situation! 19:03:53 i'm poor. plus american currency exchange rate is high and shipping is expensive 19:04:12 will there be a free copy? 19:04:15 weirdo: okay, we'll let you off the hook. 19:04:25 No rms? 19:04:36 Sadly, no. For this book it seems like an on-line version would cannibalize sales too much. 19:05:18 I was actually asking about the contents. 8) 19:05:21 fear not, an online copy will surface in a few hours after bookstores open 19:05:22 However, I am pondering trying to convince Apress to let me put up the raw transcripts as a historical record and for anyone who wants to wade through 1,400 pages of unedited foo rather than 480 pages of edited text. 19:05:25 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has quit [No route to host] 19:05:43 schoppenhauer_ [n=css@82.113.121.87] has joined #lisp 19:05:54 gigamonkey, you planning on making a second edition of PCL? 19:06:10 I've thought about it off and on. 19:06:12 you could add some stuff, like explaining how nested backquote work and mention non-keyword &keywords 19:06:18 gigamonkey: that could be interesting, both as an alternative for people who can't afford/obtain the book, and as a supplementary material for those who have the book. 19:07:05 i'd love a book that teaches programming, not just a language 19:07:23 i read a bit of SICP and i didn't like it 19:07:36 weirdo: the first chapters are a bit boring 19:07:41 they've shown a solution to a problem immediately, they should explain it step by step as it is created 19:07:57 i have tons of good code to read 19:08:02 but that's all the book is 19:08:14 weirdo: you can't say that if you haven't read it 19:08:27 i scanned through it and that's how all of it was 19:08:36 meh 19:08:50 they sometimes introduced a new concept, but they never showed the thought process behind creating code 19:08:53 Xach: I'm not sure I've completely understood it yet, but I think I'm closer to an answer 19:09:00 which is the best lesson 19:09:11 thanks to mcclim's experimental native-ttf renderer, at least I saw a formula now (: 19:09:15 i have a law of programming of myself, too 19:09:25 weirdo: check out the video lectures on that, that'll be more what you expect 19:09:28 weirdo: it often helps to have your own project that you're tackling while you read a book. 19:09:34 don't write code, code is buggy. write the least amount of code possible and write the rest of it declaratively 19:09:41 that way, you can try applying concepts as you learn them. 19:09:44 Xach: my current guess is that unscaled, 1em is supposed to correspond to 1pt. 19:09:59 Adamant, i know lisp and scheme standards. but programming is more than knowing what is computable 19:10:07 s/lisp/cl 19:10:54 and there's no interview with JMC. did he refuse or what? 19:10:59 gigamonkey? 19:11:37 demmel pasted "more arnesi bugs" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84763 19:11:39 antifuchs: how quaint. 1em usually equals (text-width "m") 19:11:42 but the rest of people chosen are very influential, though 19:11:52 got kt, jwz, norvig, steele 19:11:59 drewc: fixes should be similar to the one you allready made 19:11:59 knuth... 19:12:02 1em doesn't make sense without a reference point (that is: current font) 19:12:07 weirdo: I didn't ask him. I was trying to keep it from being too much of a Lisp book. 19:12:36 foom: which is why the function units/em is still a bit of a mystery to me 19:13:34 demmel: ok, i'll look into it when i get a chance 19:13:44 antifuchs: ah, well, I missed the other half of the conversation so I don't actually know what you're talking about. :) 19:14:17 wait, what I just said doesn't really make sense either 19:14:20 drewc: Sure thing. Thanks. 19:14:36 ok, I think I'll just have to try some stuff and get my mental model adjusted (: 19:14:48 Xach: I will pester you later, once I've better understood this 19:14:54 how was the trip? 19:15:30 gigamonkey: By the way, I noticed that Lispbox doesn't include CCL for Windoze yet. Any reason? 19:17:05 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:18:10 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-72-174.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 19:18:58 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 19:20:50 gigamonkey: Will there be a PDF or non-Amazon-encumbered mobi for sale? 19:22:09 *dlowe* is currently drooling over the new PRS-600. 19:22:09 w/ the Apple tablet and the CrunchPad coming, PDFs will be even better. 19:23:47 I sense dripping sarcasm 19:23:55 milanj [n=milan@93.86.21.180] has joined #lisp 19:24:09 antifuchs: not good? 19:24:31 luis: neither the crunchpad nor the apple tablet are anything but thin vaporware. 19:24:32 I wish straight LaTeX rendered on the fly was considered a valid ebook format 19:24:49 well, the .mobi format is just compressed html 19:24:55 dlowe: why? 19:24:57 mobireader format is quite good 19:24:57 antifuchs: I thought you were talking about PRS-600 19:25:02 luis: oh (: 19:25:20 so if gigamonkey gives us a web site with the full book, we can make our own unencumbered mobi books (: 19:25:22 *luis* joins dlowe in drooling over the PRS-600 specs 19:25:24 michaelw: proper typography, rendering to device-specific form 19:26:11 -!- Faed is now known as Fade 19:26:26 *dlowe* contemplates writing an android TeX ebook reader 19:26:30 dlowe: have you done much latex work? changing the page size requires quite some work usually. 19:26:37 but LaTeX has no DRM. tell it to our shareholders. 19:26:45 even PDF has DRM 19:26:55 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 19:27:08 michaelw: For some stuff, but not a straight novel. 19:27:18 just bang it into the book format 19:29:12 -!- schoppenhauer_ [n=css@82.113.121.87] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:30:09 i've been of the opinion that paper books are good enough, but after losing pretty much my whole library I can sort of see the point of PDF "backups" 19:31:32 michaelw: It's just like having an extra copy of the book, in case you lose one. Although I do think that reading hardcopy books is more convenient than reading e-books. 19:31:38 Adlai: re no CCL. Basically because I haven't updated Lispbox in forever. 19:32:13 If I ever get any time to devote to it, I'll definitely make sure I have CCL on Linux, Mac, and Windows. 19:32:34 gigamonkey: I have a windows boot, leftover from when I got this computer. Is there some way that I can help prepare a Lispbox distribution of CCL for Windows? 19:32:38 sellout: I don't know about Apress's plans for a PDF. Come to think of it they will probably have on for sale. 19:33:04 it's so great we now have CL on three major platforms 19:33:16 May or may not help you set up CCL: http://kirov.dyndns.org/Test/CCL_Windows_Installation.html 19:33:37 Adlai: check out http://code.google.com/p/lispbox/ 19:33:52 WhiteFlame [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:56 There should be a Kindle version but I'm sure it will be DRM'd 19:34:06 (My doc doesn't have this yet) - make sure you update CCL/Win32 to the very latest 19:34:08 Lispbox on a Kindle? O_o 19:34:17 gigamonkey: Yeah, I'd rather buy the PDF 19:34:28 Adlai: No, Coders at Work on a Kindle. 19:34:55 sellout: though I don't know if they do any of the obnoxious DRM stuff on the PDFs they sell. 19:35:05 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 19:35:07 sellout: creative misinterpretation :) 19:35:44 gigamonkey: Well, if so, I'll fall back to paper. 19:35:51 Cascading Media Formats. 19:36:07 Adlai: if you, and anyone else, wants to get in the business of building Lispboxen for various platforms/Lisps, I could probably at least get my act together to update the Lispbox page to host them or link to them somewhere. 19:36:29 ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:43 Hmmm. Looks like Google code could host them--ISTR they originally didn't have any way to host files. 19:37:16 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:37:16 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 19:37:21 pre-ordered coders at work, there. :-) 19:39:10 Excellent. 19:39:24 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:39:34 what rss about lisp are you reading? i'm only reading reddit lisp, planet lisp, planet sbcl, kenny's blog and not much more 19:41:32 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 19:41:46 i wonder if i'm invisible 19:42:25 Joreji [n=user@47-150.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:42:43 weirdo: nope. I just don't have any good suggestions beyond Planet Lisp. 19:42:44 youre not :P 19:43:23 gigamonkey: I just read the README.source file, but I'm still a bit confused. Would building a Lispbox distrubution with CCL on Windows be as simple as getting the Lispbox source, putting the CCL binary in the binary-archives directory, and then invoking the main makefile? 19:43:50 Hey guys, is there a way to fill a cond form per macro? 19:43:50 I would like to do something like: (cond (m1) (m2))) where (m1) and (m2) would expand to cond compatible ( ) forms. How do I go about that? 19:44:28 You can't. That's not how macros work. 19:44:41 Oh. 19:44:53 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:44:55 (not even w/ a symbol macro?) 19:45:00 pkhuong: what? you can't just have a macro that expands into (condition . )? 19:45:31 ah, but cond wouldn't necessarily macroexpand the calls to the macro. right. 19:45:51 probaly not a good idea to let a macro expand into new control structures, just confuses 19:46:05 Joreji: you might be able to write a macro that expands into the entire call to cond. 19:46:10 There are enough already 19:46:33 Adlai: Yeah, I guess I will have to do that. 19:46:44 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:46:57 something like (my-cond (data-for-clause-1) (data-for-clause-2)), which would expand into (cond ) 19:47:34 What are you trying to do, though? This might be too complex a solution 19:47:48 -!- brianj_otter [n=brianj@wsip-24-234-246-213.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [] 19:48:43 tic: how long can you keep the sourdough in the fridge ? 19:48:47 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:58 lhz, a couple of days, at least. 19:49:16 tic: it's been over a week now :) 19:49:17 lhz, note, it's poolish, which is not the same as sourdough. A sourdough you can keep indefinitely, as long as you feed it properly. 19:49:31 Adlai: possibly it would be that easy. 19:49:38 lhz, week should be OK -- you'll notice when it's gone liquid, basically. .-) 19:49:41 Adlai: Well, I have some html code which is the same for 2 pages. Since I dispatch the two pages using one handler, I basically would like to use cond to differentiate between the two pages using an url. Now since those two pages use a lot of similar code, I wanted to create both condition and body of each page using a macro. 19:49:43 (and once again, #lisp turns into #food) 19:50:05 Actually, likely it would since Mikel Evins did some work building CCL Lispboxen a while ago. 19:50:22 But I'll just find some other workaroung 19:50:23 kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:50:26 workaround*. 19:50:46 Which is where the two OS X CCL Lispboxen come from. 19:50:47 tic: liquid as in alcohol ? .. could you freeze it ? 19:51:03 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 19:51:25 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Success] 19:51:27 lhz, no, just something watery. the poolish is rather ... runny, to begin with. And eventually it'll all just turn into whatever the gooey slush is. I think you could freeze it. Regular dough and sourdough can be frozen, at least. 19:51:31 Adlai, clhs #. 19:51:38 lhz, I think it turns into glucose, actually. 19:51:47 mind EVAL-WHEN 19:51:48 Though on Windows, nothing is ever easy. 19:52:23 -!- WhiteFlame [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:52:30 oh, it was Joreji that asked the question. then, my messages were directed at him 19:52:47 but it's a bad solution, though it is exactly what you ashed 19:52:49 asked 19:52:59 tic: ok thanks, I think I've spent my offtopic quota for today :) 19:53:14 Joreji, use either hash tables or CLOS instead 19:53:15 lhz, :-) good luck! 19:53:31 this way you can add a third handler without rewriting your code 19:53:40 or you can manipulate the handlers from a web site form 19:53:54 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 19:54:15 dispatching on hash tables or CLOS is a powerful technique, use it as often as reasonably possible 19:54:29 Woohoo! Coders at Work has cracked the top 50,000 mark on Amazon and it's not even out yet! 19:54:46 gigamonkey: congratulations. Imagine how much higher it could soar! :D 19:55:02 gigamonkey, yay! 19:55:19 weirdo: Dispatch on hash tables? 19:55:21 I'm hoping. I'm actually very interested to see how it sells compared to PCL. Not as much of a built-in audience but potentially a much larger one. 19:55:43 gigamonkey, I think so too. A valid comparison would be Beautiful Code. 19:55:58 'cept your book is much better, of course. 19:56:03 Joreji make a hash table with an appropriate test. use the page address as a key and needs to differ as a value 19:56:14 oh 19:56:19 tic: I hope so. I never got through to the end of Beautiful Code since the middle was such a slog. 19:56:22 Nice idea! 19:56:23 Joreji i can't overemphasize that. don't ever program like this in lisp, just hardcoding stuff 19:56:25 gigamonkey, same here. 19:57:06 weirdo: Yeah I'm sorta the... um, getting it done guy. No matter what way. 19:57:13 Joreji same goes for doing stuff many times. because you can create graphs easily in lisp, don't just *do* it, make a list of it and do a loop 19:57:25 It's weird--and sad--that if they had cut the middle third out of that book it would have been better yet they must believe it would have sold worse. 19:57:25 gigamonkey: is there a version of GNU make that I can use on Windows to try and build this brave new lispbox? 19:57:50 Adlai: I'm pretty sure I used to use cygnus. 19:57:54 gigamonkey, it'd definitely be easier to read. It's not very pocketable in its current format. .-) 19:57:56 weirdo: Heh, I'll try to keep that in mind :) 19:58:12 "cygnus"? Google is my friend, probably. 19:58:40 Mmmm. Google doesn't turn it up as quickly as I'd expect. Hang on. 19:58:48 heh, ok. 19:58:53 Try cygwin 19:58:54 Joreji you're doing html templating, right? 19:59:27 -!- rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:59:46 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590f8cf8.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:59:47 weirdo: Not sure. I'm using HTML if that is what you're asking? 20:00:11 Joreji i mean stuff like PHP when you need to intersperse code with HTML 20:00:41 luis: are you luismbo on twitter 20:00:43 ? 20:01:08 *gigamonkey* finds it ironic that he wrote a whole book of Q&A interviews and still sucks at remembering to put #\?'s on the end of questions. 20:01:15 gigamonkey: If I build the box using cygwin, will it run on a windows platform that doesn't have cygwin? When I used Lispbox on Windows, a while back, I didn't have cygwin but it ran fine... 20:01:16 weirdo: Well, basically I'm writting HTML code in lisp. Not really in PHP. 20:01:27 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590f8cf8.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 20:01:31 Joreji *like* php. you need a HTML template library :-) 20:01:33 "Cygnus, Your GNU Support." 20:01:36 Adlai: you can ship necessary cygwin libraries 20:01:43 you're new so you could do it as an exercise. how about it? :-) 20:01:56 i'm going to give you a handful of tips 20:02:03 Adlai: it should. 20:02:08 weirdo: Ah yes. I'm using bknr's xhtmlgen. 20:02:24 ok. good luck then :-) 20:02:25 weirdo: I prefer not mixing html and code together - yacml or similar approaches look much nicer 20:02:45 ok, so I'll give this a try once I work up the courage to venture into my Windows boot again :) 20:02:47 i try not to write html, much less javascript 20:02:49 As I say, that's how I used to build it. Especially if you start with a pre-built Lisp and pre-built Emacs. Then all the Lispbox makefile is doing is unpacking and repacking things. 20:02:52 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:03:09 working on web pages stresses me out :| 20:04:05 minion: memo for luis: if you're luismbo on twitter, thanks for the tweet. Know, however, that some rat-bastard stole 'gigamonkey' before I started Twittering. I'm 'peterseibel' on twitter. 20:04:05 Remembered. I'll tell luis when he/she/it next speaks. 20:04:50 weirdo: Thanks, but all I really need is time and endurance :) 20:08:57 Wooeee! CaW now under the 10k mark on Amazon. 20:08:58 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:09:11 Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 20:10:22 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:11:13 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:30 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:11:39 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:11:50 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.233.240] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:12:23 -!- kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:12:40 -!- ilitirit_ [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:14:55 fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 20:15:12 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 20:15:12 -!- prip [n=_prip@host91-125-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:15:50 ilitirit_ [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 20:16:29 -!- Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:16:58 -!- amaury_jr is now known as UknowMyName 20:17:12 -!- UknowMyName is now known as UknowmyName 20:17:29 sellout: did you used to work at Amazon? 20:17:37 gigamonkey: Yeah. 20:17:51 hmm. CaW at amazon.de: List price: EUR 20.00 -- Price now: EUR 19.99 -- You save: EUR 1.00 (5%) 20:17:54 prip [n=_prip@host91-125-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:18:01 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:18:16 lichtblau: heh 20:18:19 ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:09 165 SEK here, I win! (for once, at least -- computer books are always crazy expensive here) 20:19:20 Is there some technical reason why it's hard for Amazon to provide a service where you could get historical Amazon Rank data? 20:19:28 peddie_ [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:41 *gigamonkey* just found http://www.titlez.com and wonders why Amazon doesn't do this themselves. 20:21:08 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:21:15 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:21:22 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:49 gigamonkey: I don't think so. I can't remember how sales rank is generated. If they do the update-a-bdb-on-some-interval approach, then it'd be easy for them to offer said service, as they have snapshots. If it's truly dynamic, then it'd work about the same as Titlez must. 20:22:54 minion: forget my memos 20:22:54 OK, I threw it out. 20:23:00 fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 20:23:13 gigamonkey: ok, fixed that. 20:24:18 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 20:26:13 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:26:37 Hello again, all. I've been going through the notes/add-type-hints.txt file of CLSQL. I'm specifically trying to add support for uniqueidentifier and timestamp as a starter, but also add support for BLOBs and then finally Unicode 20:26:44 It's not really progressing in any meaningful way 20:27:01 Is there any resources that anyone would be familiar with regarding this topic? 20:29:42 moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 20:30:08 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:30:08 luis: cool. 20:31:17 gigamonkey: downloading cygwin right now... I'm actually building this Lispbox on my mom's windows machine. 20:32:11 why cygwin? 20:32:22 doesn't lispbox work with CCL? 20:32:24 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [] 20:33:02 weirdo: not yet. 20:33:13 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:33:24 weirdo: cygwin is just for doing the Lispbox build. 20:33:27 Not the CCL build. 20:33:31 I'm trying to help gigamonkey out by building a Lispbox distribution with CCL for Windows. 20:34:03 how nice of you 20:34:36 wish sbcl worked on ms windows as well, i could use implementation-specific features and never have to port :-) 20:34:47 fsvo "never" 20:35:11 thanks. There's a beta version of SBCL for Windows, I think it just doesn't have threading and a few other things completely working yet. 20:35:17 What's the matter with SBCL on windows now? 20:35:22 I'm not the SBCL expert in the channel though :) 20:35:38 nyef i don't know. there were some problems with address space, with random crashes... 20:35:45 dysinger [n=dysinger@200.25.197.105] has joined #lisp 20:36:37 -!- vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:36:47 Address space, fine. Long-known issue. Random crashes? 20:37:31 masm [n=masm@a213-22-83-196.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 20:37:36 disregard that. i can't double-check archives since i'm on window 20:37:39 windows* 20:37:43 -!- Wombatzus [n=wombatzu@adsl-67-124-148-26.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:38:08 Of course, there's also the stream handle/fd thing with select()/serve-event. 20:48:30 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 20:49:52 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:50:57 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:04 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@98.235.105.148] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:52:16 vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 20:52:17 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:58:28 rpg [n=rpg@c-75-73-49-33.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:57 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 21:01:44 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:00 Can CXML parse HTML that isn't necessarily clean XML? 21:02:18 closure-html can? 21:02:39 Ah. 21:02:43 what stassats said 21:02:49 cxml will suffocate 21:03:18 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@63.107.91.99] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:05:01 also, clean HTML isn't clean XML/XHTML and vice versa 21:06:35 francogrex [n=franco@91.178.127.96] has joined #lisp 21:07:31 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:09 -!- lemonade` [n=lemonade@pool-70-108-32-239.res.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 21:08:30 francogrex pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84775 21:08:54 fnord123_ [n=fnord123@78-105-27-133.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:08:56 Hi I pasted a question about error handling, hope someone can help. 21:09:03 clhs handler-case 21:09:04 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_hand_1.htm 21:09:12 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [] 21:09:23 handler-case 21:10:47 complicated description 21:11:13 what it does is straightforward, though. It might help you to see the examples in PCL 21:11:37 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/beyond-exception-handling-conditions-and-restarts.html 21:12:19 doesn't the clhs have good examples? 21:12:21 it usually does 21:12:29 ok, i'll see the example thx; I hope I can get round it. 21:12:43 (handler-case (run 10) (error () 'look-ma-an-error)) 21:12:53 Ralith: it does but in this case it's a bit too complex and what i need is simpler 21:13:08 complex? 21:13:27 I'm not sure how you could manage to make it complex 21:13:31 stassats: this is the best 21:13:32 it's a pretty simple tool 21:13:45 stassats: now i get it 21:14:38 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:14:56 Ralith: the example of stassats was clearer for what i wanted 21:16:29 but then I know I have to use in in conjunction with error 21:16:42 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["BRB"] 21:20:17 Is there anyone out there, by any chance, who is using asdf-binary-locations? 21:20:29 me 21:20:29 rpg: yes 21:20:29 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:20:41 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:14 i use it too 21:21:38 let me guess the problem, slime breaks with it? 21:21:45 Here's a problem we've been having --- if you work with someone who is not using A-B-L, they may use load-truename to find other files (e.g., data files). 21:22:11 use compile-file-truename 21:22:40 correction, use both 21:23:44 stassats: is that an sbcl-specific function? 21:23:50 danlei`` [n=user@pD9E2C390.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:17 rpg: it's cl:*compile-file-truename* 21:24:51 -!- fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:24:52 fe[nl]ix: Ah. Thank you! I thought it was a function (sans asterisks), hence my failure to find it in the hyperspec. 21:25:09 well, you did omit asterisks with load-truename as well 21:25:15 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:26:06 something like (load-time-value (or #.*compile-file-pathname* *load-pathname*)) 21:26:09 stassats: fair enought! 21:27:09 stassats: Maybe I'm being too fussy here. Probably just restricting things to using load-truename (with asterisks) in the .asd files, which are always loaded, would be the best. 21:27:55 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:28:33 -!- angerman_ [n=angerman@host230.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 21:28:56 fnord123 [n=fnord123@78-105-27-133.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:29:39 Ah, fun--ignoring Zawinski's advice and using regexps instead of a proper parser. 21:29:52 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:31:18 rpg: and then someday you will transit to XCVB 21:32:34 stassats: ...and will be found dead in the ditch, murdered by the colleagues whose load.lisp files I smashed in favor of .asd's ;-) 21:33:25 drafael [n=tapio@130.216.91.32] has joined #lisp 21:33:27 also, you can compile .asd file 21:33:40 you can assume no one ever does that 21:34:08 i did once or twice C-c C-k on it 21:34:14 and mention it in a GOTCHAS file with a fine print 21:36:04 stassats: compiling the file isn't the problem, because we wouldn't compile it through ASDF. That's the problem --- if we compile it through ASDF it (potentially) gets relocated by asdf-binary-locations. 21:36:13 Even if we compile the .asd, it won't get moved... 21:36:29 well, it can be relocated by slime's C-c C-k 21:36:33 (but yes, if we do that, any uses of load-truename could be gonked). 21:36:47 fnord1231 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:36:56 stassats: hm. do people commonly do that? 21:37:44 each time i use C-c C-k i plan to configure it to place fasls somwhere else, but haven't got around it yet 21:39:07 well, (load-time-value (or #.*compile-file-epathname* *load-pathname*)) would work in those cases 21:39:24 weirdo: C-c C-k on asds is part of my normal workflow when testing multiple versions, etc. 21:39:43 -!- fnord123_ [n=fnord123@78-105-27-133.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:40:27 -!- danlei` [n=user@pD9E2FFD9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 21:43:00 stassats: Thank you, I will definitely use that idiom. 21:46:50 *rpg* uses deviant keybindings 21:47:05 is C-c C-k compile s-expression or compile-buffer? 21:47:24 buffer 21:47:31 file 21:48:01 -!- francogrex [n=franco@91.178.127.96] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:50:01 rpg: I find that something like (merge-pathnames "dir/file.lisp" (truename (asdf:system-definition-pathname (asdf:find-system )))) works better since it's impervious to C-c C-k 21:50:37 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:50:52 fe[nl]ix: That's very nice, I will adopt that. 21:50:53 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 21:51:24 -!- fnord123 [n=fnord123@78-105-27-133.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:51:36 Why would you compile a .asd? 21:51:43 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@e179127117.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 21:53:44 fe[nl]ix: One remaining annoyance is the package annoyance --- in the general case, the files that need to reference these pathnames are in packages that don't exist when the .asd file is read.... 21:53:55 rpg: better, use asdf::resolve-symlinks instead of truename 21:54:50 rpg: I don't understand 21:56:07 fe[nl]ix: E.g., my file in package FOOBAR wants to reference *data-directory-pathname*. But the ASDF file where it's easiest to define that variable can't define a variable in the FOOBAR package, because it can't rely on the package yet being created. 21:57:45 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-156-115.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:59:26 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:35 ah, yes. the configuration problem. not much you can do about it 22:00:16 rpg: kludge: (defparameter cl-user::*org.yourdomain.project-name/data-directory-pathname* ...) 22:00:31 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:06 fe[nl]ix: Yes. I do that. An alternative is to do (defvar *data-directory-pathname*) in the code, and then do a perform after method on loading the system... 22:01:20 eek 22:01:20 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@adsl-89-132-1-77.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 22:01:24 one usually creates an additional package for .asd 22:01:37 not usually 22:01:45 fe[nl]ix: always? 22:01:48 nope 22:02:05 you don't do this, ok 22:02:07 fe[nl]ix: I would say I've seen it in more .asds than not. 22:03:38 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:04:01 ok, a majority of the .asd file I have does that 22:04:16 ~75% 22:04:19 fe[nl]ix: Yes. You're right. The perform method ends up looking unspeakably awful. 22:05:13 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:05:27 i'd just go with what i was proposing, but in the file where you need it, not in .asd 22:06:11 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 22:06:35 that's what i do and what others do 22:07:16 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:08:17 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 22:08:32 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:08:42 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:09:38 rpg: i put configuration variables in a package called -system along with the ASDF forms 22:10:32 drewc: I think that's mostly a good solution. Unfortunately, I'm working with someone else's code and I can't guarantee that any file will be used in only one ASDF context. 22:12:08 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 22:12:17 rpg: anything else i can suggest will be kludgy, and i'm sure you can think of those on your own :) 22:12:34 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-142-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:04 -!- drafael [n=tapio@130.216.91.32] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:14:38 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:15:17 p_l: you still around? 22:15:50 gigamonkey annotated #84759 "It really is typeset in Word" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84759#2 22:16:28 *gigamonkey* is very sad about having to send this book to Donald Knuth. 22:16:41 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-90-175-82.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["restart"] 22:17:22 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-3-23.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:52 O_O 22:20:35 gigamonkey: please tell me you don't set in Times New Roman :/ 22:20:42 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 22:20:51 gigamonkey: Knuth would be more down considering how his books get printed in some countries 22:20:55 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-142-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:21:13 fiveop [n=fiveop@e179127117.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:21:30 S11001001: F-ck if I know. Probably not. Grrrr. At this point it's either delay shipment of the book by raising a big stink or just let them do what they're going to do. 22:21:30 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-90-175-82.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:21:35 S11001001: comic sans. 22:21:37 badkins [n=user@68-243-151-250.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:45 pkhuong: hahaha 22:22:12 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@200.25.197.105] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:22:31 gigamonkey: My God, what publishing house are you dealing with? 22:22:37 -!- Wombatzu` [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:22:53 The stupid thing is, I spent a fair bit of time playing around with typesetting the thing myself in LaTeX. But I could never get them to admit what they were planning to do until now, when it's basically too late. 22:22:56 antoszka: Apress. 22:23:20 gigamonkey: Hard to believe. BTW, does that mean you're working on a second book? 22:23:33 Yup,, http://www.codersatwork.com/ 22:24:13 Now chilling at #31 in Software Development books on Amazon, BTW, despite not being out yet. Thanks guys! 22:24:29 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:37 Better get everyone to buy it now before they find out about the sins against typography it's going to contain. 22:24:43 I really like the look of Computer Modern Roman 22:24:53 Great. Now I'm truly worried about the typesetting, though :). 22:25:38 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590f8cf8.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:25:59 gigamonkey: Please, please... negotiate, go on strike, open a petition at petitionsonline :). 22:26:04 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 22:26:09 This just can't be like that. 22:26:17 -!- Joreji [n=user@47-150.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:26:31 The repositories for 32 bit OS are different from the ones for 64 bit? 22:26:56 -!- coderdad_ [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:27:56 tomoyuki28jp: what repositories ? 22:28:24 fe[nl]ix: oh sorry, I asked a question in a wrong channel... 22:30:14 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:30:32 antoszka: it's nothing compared to typesetting of polish relases of TAoCP and similar 22:30:44 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit ["spi"] 22:30:52 antoszka: Okay. I've got to go walk the dog and I'll think about the letter I'm going to write to the founder of Apress who also edited PCL. 22:32:16 :) 22:33:17 p_l: Yeah, there is a lot of strange stuff. My copy of K&R's ANSI C has code samples set in a proportional typeface. Go figure. 22:33:18 gigamonkey: good luck (: 22:33:37 antoszka: ouch. Good thing I've got an *old* edition 22:33:46 if people on sbcl-devel keep on discussing that #THE, #TWO, #DEFINE ideas, then they will draw come unwelcome attention to the list from the search engines... :) 22:34:15 p_l: This *is* an old edition :). I think it's one of the first that showed up in Poland (by WKi ztcp). 22:34:37 ugh 22:34:39 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has left #lisp 22:34:41 antoszka: mine is from the same publisher and I don't thing it has proportional typeface *anywhere* 22:34:46 *think 22:34:46 I'm glad that fashion didn't stick around 22:35:01 Oh, right. Mine is pre-ANSI 22:35:16 Don't think I've ever seen code in proportional typeface in a book 22:35:21 was this a polish-language version? 22:35:34 smalltalk books (and IDEs) usually use proportional width fonts 22:35:36 p_l: http://www.kursc.dioda.com.pl/img/art001_ansic.jpg  that's the one I got. 22:35:45 p_l: It's WNT, actually. 22:35:48 My wrong. 22:36:42 -!- rpg [n=rpg@c-75-73-49-33.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:37:18 antoszka: mine is simply titled Jzyk programowania C and chapter on I/O etc. is titled Programowanie w systemie Unix, no mention of ANSI standard :D 22:38:00 p_l: Maybe it's not exactly the same book. We're getting somewhat off topic with that, anyway :). 22:38:31 no doubt there is a horribly-typeset version of SICP out there somewhere :) 22:38:42 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:39:12 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 22:39:16 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 22:39:30 A Polish translation of mine is actually surprisingly good. 22:40:16 It's actually readable in Polish. Not that I've gone very deep into the book yet. :( 22:40:23 *rsynnott* used to have a copy of Sedgewick's 'Algorithms' with _hand drawn_ diagrams 22:40:24 -!- badkins [n=user@68-243-151-250.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:40:29 cool 22:40:45 apparently they replaced them with computer generated after a few editions, but I got it second hand 22:41:03 SBCL does not work on x86_64 Linux? I am facing trouble to install. 22:41:08 *rsynnott* must check if still got it; maybe it's a collector's item now :) 22:41:11 tomoyuki28jp: it should 22:41:17 rsynnott: many older releases in Poland used ASCII-art box diagrams 22:41:18 oh really.. 22:41:20 are you using a 32bit or 64bit binary? 22:41:30 or trying to compile it yourself? 22:41:49 rsynnott: I think I am compiling my self like sh make.sh "clisp". 22:42:03 ah 22:42:09 why not use a binary? 22:42:31 rsynnott: I have tried binary, but it also failed. 22:42:39 oh, what did the binary say? 22:42:41 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:42:43 was it a 64bit binary? 22:42:59 rsynnott: oh, I might use 32bit binary. 22:43:20 tomoyuki28jp: What Linux distribution is that on? 22:43:34 ah, that can break it you don't have the right collection of life support libs installed 22:43:40 antoszka: ubuntu 9.04. apt-get install sbcl failed too. 22:43:41 you'd be better off with a 64bit binary 22:43:57 tomoyuki28jp: A 64-bit system, I suppose? 22:44:12 And in what way does it fail? 22:44:25 antoszka: this means 64bit, right? uname -a Linux web4r.com 2.6.27-7-server #1 SMP Fri Oct 24 07:20:47 UTC 2008 x86_64 GNU/Linux 22:44:38 yep, that is 64bit 22:44:39 tomoyuki28jp: Yep. 22:44:58 antoszka: let me paste the error I got when I try sudo apt-get install sbcl. 22:45:29 apt-get install sbcl error: http://paste.lisp.org/display/84781 22:46:07 hmm, is this in some sort of VM? 22:46:16 tomoyuki28jp: Are you running that in a standard terminal? 22:46:24 tomoyuki28jp: Or some fancy package manager? 22:46:35 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.21.180] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:46:49 (a standard terminal or a terminal emulator, obviously) 22:46:55 antoszka: I run that command on a terminal via ssh. 22:46:57 debian, obviously 22:47:31 tomoyuki28jp: what's the TERM variable? 22:47:41 This is the error I got when I try sh make.sh "clisp" http://paste.lisp.org/display/84782 22:47:54 antoszka: on a remote machine? 22:47:58 drafael [n=tapio@130.216.93.6] has joined #lisp 22:48:00 tomoyuki28jp: Yep. 22:48:09 why not just download sbcl from www.sbcl.org? 22:48:24 antoszka: echo $TERM -> dumb 22:48:31 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-69-232-218-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:31 I think you should probably stick to the binary installation via apt-get. This problem won't probably be hard to fix. 22:48:36 tomoyuki28jp: Which is the problem. 22:48:45 tomoyuki28jp: Try running screen over there. 22:49:05 run apt-get command inside screen on a remote machine? 22:49:09 tomoyuki28jp: Or send your xterminal's terminfo over to the remote machine. 22:49:11 tomoyuki28jp: yes. 22:49:16 let me try that way. 22:49:28 tomoyuki28jp: It's probably missing urxvt's terminfo (or whatever terminal emulator you're using). 22:49:40 (since it hasn't got the package, I presume) 22:49:50 tomoyuki28jp: there's this, which was a libc problem: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=469015 22:49:53 but it's quite old now 22:50:03 antoszka: the result is the same. 22:50:22 tomoyuki28jp: what's the value of TERM variable in screen? 22:50:31 screen 22:50:43 tomoyuki28jp: And the error is exactly the same? 22:51:35 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177074145.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:52:00 antoszka: yes, exactly same error. 22:52:01 go to #ubuntu 22:52:32 tomoyuki28jp: try export TERM=xterm and then run the installation (just for kinks). 22:52:50 Lucia [n=Lucia@148.Red-79-148-241.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:10 antoszka: the same.. 22:53:16 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-1-77.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:53:34 tomoyuki28jp: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=422427  probably that 22:53:41 kinda old 22:54:04 the root of the problem would seem to be the GC error, though 22:54:18 doesn't seem likely that the wrong terminal would cause that 22:54:21 -!- nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:54:36 yeah, I was wondering what is all that talk about $TERM if it shows gc invariant failure 22:54:46 So what's the best way? get it from binary? 22:54:47 Possible. Maybe there are two issues and the first one is just a warning. 22:54:57 Not an error. 22:55:06 also, look at what it was loading... clc... gross :P 22:55:10 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 22:55:24 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:55:40 BTW, isn't that sbcl package a little dated? 22:55:52 1.0.18. 22:56:09 it does mention a terminal thing 22:56:20 but it will presumably fall back on not using dialog 22:56:21 I'm sure somebody is maintaining a repo with newer versions. 22:56:35 so, again, why not just download sbcl from www.sbcl.org and don't get nowhere near CLC? 22:56:47 I forgot to tell you. I am trying to install it on Xen VPS. that might be the reason. 22:57:00 isn't there some weirdness with Xen? 22:57:07 *rsynnott* _did_ ask if it was a VM :) 22:57:42 Xen usually works fine 22:57:59 oh, okay, that's a different oldish problem where SBCL could crash xen, not the other way around :) 22:58:33 tomoyuki28jp: Still, I'd try to find a repo with a more recent release. 22:59:14 antoszka: It would be a good idea. How can I find such repo? 22:59:27 Dunno, not running Debians. 22:59:57 antoszka: I will ask in #ubuntu, thanks! 23:00:18 np 23:01:34 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-142-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:40 I have some trouble understanding how closures work. I have the following scheme in my mind regarding going from symbol to value: 23:01:57 "symbol evals to name evals to value, which is always a reference to something" 23:02:35 now, the binding associates a name to a value (=reference) or am I mistaken? 23:02:52 tomoyuki28jp: install from binary tarball (the one on sbcl.org), then install clbuild to get the rest :) 23:03:26 p_l: should I get the one for 64bit? 23:03:51 definitely 23:04:19 *p_l* doesn't get it why some people run 32bit software on x86-64 if 64bit variant is available... 23:05:01 hum.. anyone? 23:07:04 Lucia: when you have a symbol that's bound lexically (for example, with a 'let form), the compiler replaces references to the value of that symbol with references to a specific memory location. 23:07:22 p_l: AMD64 is the one I should get? 23:07:32 yes 23:07:37 stassats: thanks! 23:07:51 is there too much to chose from? 23:08:41 tomoyuki28jp: http://packages.ubuntu.com/karmic/sbcl  don't know how easy it is to backport a package from a newer (dev) release. 23:08:43 alpha and sparc? 23:08:49 Probably not very hard. 23:08:59 Lucia: if you "capture" such a reference with a closure, that bit of memory won't get garbage collected. It'll stick around as long as the closure does. Thus, the closure can refer to that bit of memory, without interfering with any other references to that symbol. 23:09:58 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-142-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:10:25 if you have a closure variable that's modified by SETQ, then it's a double-pointer, not a single-pointer, right? 23:11:31 why should it be a double-pointer? 23:11:40 weirdo: do you mean a lexical variable? "closure variable" isn't a real term 23:11:44 stassats: don't forget MIPS! 23:11:47 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:52 (and HPPA, I think) 23:11:54 rsynnott: it's 32-bit there 23:11:58 ah 23:12:01 afaik 23:12:09 both DIRECTIONS of MIPS, too ;) 23:12:55 stassats, because if it was a single-pointer, it would only change when reassigned by SETQ in the closure, not the preceding scope 23:13:23 weirdo: ok, i forgot to think 23:13:42 i said that from memory and now had to rationalize a reason why it should be a double-pointer 23:13:43 I get this error while I was trying to install sbcl from a binary: http://paste.lisp.org/display/84783. 23:14:00 it's not an error 23:14:02 it's harmless 23:14:13 your sbcl is done installing 23:14:16 oh 23:14:20 yeah 23:14:25 you can unpack manuals, er, manually 23:14:30 they're in a separate tarball 23:14:32 Adlai: I understand that. I have trouble with "The key thing to understand about closures is that it's the binding, not the value of the variable, that's captured" (from PCL) 23:15:06 I finally make it to install sbcl. thanks a lot for your help, guys. I appreciate it. 23:15:18 now, compile new sbcl 23:15:24 i wish programming was more like, "what i have is sqrt(x), i need you, computer, to find x" 23:15:37 Lucia: what that means is that if your variable x is captured by a closure and you (setf x 2) its new value is seen both inside and outside the closure 23:15:38 What I can't picture (maybe it's so clear that's in front of me and I don't see it) is what exactly is a binding. 23:16:18 that is, it isn't *just* that a closure saves the same value as the variable had in the outer scope 23:16:25 Lucia: a closure is a bit of compiled code. Instead of references to a -value- or to a -symbol-, there are references in it to a memory address. 23:16:26 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:16:43 Adlai: in sbcl it's a value-cell object :) 23:16:46 rsynnott: what about weirdo move of having 32bit code on Alpha? ;P 23:16:54 closure is a piece of code and a vector of values 23:17:14 the values represent free variables 23:17:17 kpreid: right, but to elide implementation details, it's basically a pointer to a memory address that contains a value. 23:17:22 the alpha one is 32bit? 23:17:40 hmm, I guess I'm putting in my own implementation details in place of the elided ones :) 23:17:41 you don't understand what a binding is or what a lexical binding is? 23:17:56 p_l, you talkin' to me? 23:18:01 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:18:04 i don't see anyone else here so you must be talkin' to me 23:18:13 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:04 hmm maybe we shouldn't explain how it's implemented. lexical environment could even be an alist at runtime 23:19:15 it's too much for a poor newbie 23:19:34 weirdo: weirdo is a word as well :P 23:20:12 johnny was a weirdo, what did you expect? i'm no frakking hero, i'm just trying to survive myself 23:20:21 yes, i know, that's what i'm poking fun at 23:20:38 weirdo: well, lexical is a qualifier, first I'd like to understand what is a binding, then I can move onto lexical binding. Among symbol, value, and name of a variable, I don't *see* where 'binding' goes into the scheme. I don't know if I make much sense. i don't care about the behavior of the closure, I understand it will affect a value as long as a reference is held to it, I want to understand what a binding is in terms of the lang 23:20:38 uage. 23:20:52 Lucia, binding is a variable resolving to a value 23:21:00 binding persists with its scope 23:21:18 aaaalright 23:21:22 i.e. as long as the BODY thunk of LET doesn't exit 23:21:35 rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:47 rsynnott: http://git.boinkor.net/gitweb/sbcl.git?a=blob;f=src/compiler/alpha/parms.lisp;h=78b7d0e5363659297d24fcb97b3c37cc13b485ab;hb=HEAD#l15 23:21:48 for lezical variables, only stuff that's *visually* in the BODY thunk knows about your fine variable FOO 23:22:32 but dynamic bindings on the other hand, see your fine special variable *everywhere* as long as the BODY thunk still hasn't existed 23:22:40 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@e179127117.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:23:01 so you can create a variable BAR in one toplevel function and use it in another toplevel one 23:23:02 oh well, sparc is 32-bit there too 23:23:15 s/existed/exitted 23:23:29 any questions? 23:24:05 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Client Quit] 23:24:22 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:24:26 weirdo: I though dynamic variables encompass all scopes, no matter in what body. 23:24:40 so, x86-64 is the only truly 64-bit sbcl 23:25:12 Lucia, if you bind something with LET, it only exists as long as the evaluator is before the LET-form close-paren 23:25:31 when it hits the LET close-paren, previous value gets restored 23:25:41 or it gets unbound if there's no previous value 23:25:52 yes, but if you define it special it exists all over 23:26:10 unboundness only applies to special variables, lexicals have no such thing 23:26:26 I know, I know 23:26:54 though referencing a variable that hasn't been defparameter'd/defvar'd, let'd, declare special'd is undefined. most (all?) compilers treat it as it has been implicitly declared special 23:27:02 variables can be declared special lexically and forever 23:27:13 forever is defvar/defparam 23:27:40 you are talking about extent (scope in time, I'm reading PCL) 23:27:45 lexically is either undefined behavior you can depend upon by simply using the variable or by (declare (special variable-name)) 23:28:24 special variables have dynamic scope, but you can say "dynamic variables have dynamic scope" and people will understand you 23:28:58 what's the bigger category, special or dynamic? 23:29:00 if you use a special variable to make a stack or a similar structure, DO NOT assign it with SETQ or similar 23:29:01 and that is why they must be surrounded with *scare-stars* 23:29:04 always use LET 23:29:10 only use SETQ for stuff like options 23:29:28 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:32 *rsynnott* always took the 'just say no to setq' approach :) 23:29:37 but even then only from the repl, don't make code that setq's an option as it might threaten other library consumers 23:29:59 s/make code/make functions 23:30:26 well i used SETQ to make coroutines 23:30:47 seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 23:30:49 demmel_ [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-201-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:51 rsynnott: right, say yes to setf 23:30:55 allright, now you lost me but anyway, to summarise: binding is the association of a name and a value. That's what I want(ed) to know 23:31:14 http://perl.plover.com/yak/12views/samples/notes.html#sl-39 23:31:18 have you read it? it's hilarious 23:31:25 btw, i pulled a new person into our little cult 23:31:30 he's reading PCL 23:31:40 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:31:43 and he doesn't mind the parentheses, as hard to believe as it is 23:31:57 Can someone tell me in a few sentences why "Lisp processors/machines" never caught on compared to register based CPUs? (I know about AI winter...besides that?) 23:32:13 seb-, moore's law 23:32:28 they had limited funds to improve them 23:32:46 seb-: bad leadership 23:32:47 they were in theory faster than other, but they couldn't improve their speed as fast as cheap crap like intel/ibm 23:32:49 bad decisions 23:32:53 -!- demmel [n=demmel@dslb-188-098-206-050.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:33:10 weirdo: intel's architecture doesn't include anything really speed oriented, afaik 23:33:14 minsky 23:33:14 at least not x86 23:33:17 Is there an inherent reason that "register machines" are more fundamental or easy to implement ? 23:33:25 ... What makes you think that LispMs weren't register-based? 23:33:30 minsky stepped on our sand castle 23:33:33 even intel tried few times to get rid of x86 23:33:42 he's a big meanie 23:33:43 nyef: they were but Steele went beyond that and tried to do a Lisp processor 23:33:46 also, I' wouldn't call x86 register-oriented machine 23:33:46 nyef: iirc 23:34:09 why no one mentioned worse is better/ 23:34:11 seb-: Yeah, but all -production- LispMs... 23:34:16 is it because the author recanted it? 23:34:26 seb-: LispMs were register based as well. 23:34:43 weirdo: I'd say that "worse is better" is kind of a joke that got out of hand 23:34:47 we know what he means 23:34:58 weirdo: ... we do? 23:35:08 he means "regular stuff" like sparc or x86 23:35:14 or alpha, or whatever 23:35:16 p_l: yes but Steele wanted to make a "Lisp based microprocessor"...C of the ACM Nov 1980, vol23, num11 23:35:21 that isn't built with alien technology 23:35:55 demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-072-001.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:58 p_l: page 628 23:36:08 if aliens exist, they must write Lisp and play Go 23:36:45 What I really want to know is if registers will always be the shit in CPUs and if there is any reason in principle a 100% pure lisp CPU can be practical 23:37:09 why bother with lispms 23:37:12 can't* 23:37:16 you can make lisp os on stock hardware 23:37:17 seb-: You mean Steele's Scheme microprocessor, which was single-chip Scheme VM that directly executed Scheme code after certain changes? Done in afaik in 1983, and nothing came from it, like with many "hi-level language stack oriented architectures" 23:37:22 the problem is actually writing it 23:37:36 thing is, would you actually want one these days? 23:37:36 you can start with movitz or sbcl 23:37:38 There are three "wierd" features of CADR-style LispM hardware that I don't see elsewhere. One is write barriers in the memory system. Two is the rather funky DISPATCH instruction. And three is instruction streaming. 23:37:49 rsynnott, yes, providing people used it. kinda' catch-22 23:38:02 nyef: write barriers? Aren't those included somewhere in Alpha? :P 23:38:10 if it was maintained, had an application suite, device drivers, file format support 23:38:15 i wouldn't mind POSIX API 23:38:21 nyef: and could you explain instruction streaming 23:38:22 Okay, let me ammend that. Write barriers for GC volatility. 23:38:33 p_l: hardware support for forwarding pointers. 23:38:42 p_l: yea..in principle Steele's cpu could have gone somewhere given enough $$ thrown at it right? 23:38:43 i could then, say, change how some widget works and all applications would change appropriately 23:38:46 weirdo: Is that person Polish, too? 23:38:50 Actually, ISTM might be available generally. It was a prefetch optimization for instruction fetch. 23:38:50 nyef: IIRC, Azul CPUs have write barriers 23:38:57 antoszka, who? 23:39:03 weirdo: (the one you pulled into the cult of the cow) 23:39:10 And Azul isn't exactly mainstream either. 23:39:14 antoszka, yes 23:39:28 nyef: depends on how you order the streams 23:39:33 -!- demmel_ [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-201-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:39:37 i hope he doesn't give up before he's addicted 23:39:45 :) 23:39:47 x86 afaik started out as an extension to a chip made for a basic calculator... 23:39:49 pkhuong: Umm... The CADR and Explorer series didn't have hardware forwarding pointer support. It was done in microcode. 23:39:49 you know, you can't understand lisp and dislike it at the same time 23:39:54 it's like heisenberg principle 23:40:11 nyef: hardware enough for me to get confused (: 23:40:22 -!- drafael [n=tapio@130.216.93.6] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:40:24 weirdo: no true scotsman. 23:40:25 p_l: No, no... x86 was an extension to an extension to a chip for a four-function calculator. 23:40:29 seb-: Steele's cpu didn't really have much of a future, IMHO 23:40:52 nyef: yeah, it was 8008 that was 8bit variant of 4004, right? :P 23:40:57 or 8080 23:41:05 ... oops. Forgot an extension in there. 23:41:06 pkhuong, heresy! i'll tell on you to the High Priest! 23:41:12 :-) 23:41:17 p_1: Steele's CPU was register based right? 23:41:26 but surely, our community is a bit /different/ than others 23:41:28 It was 4004 -> 8008 -> 8080 -> 8086/8088. 23:41:40 there's much more zeal that gets thrown around 23:41:48 nyef: what's instruction streaming ? 23:42:34 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 23:43:20 fe[nl]ix: If a particular bit was set in the microcode return address, it would bump the microinstruction pointer. If the resultant pointer was to a new microinstruction word then it would kick off a read and set one of the lower bits in the microinstruction return address so as to arrive somewhere slightly different. 23:44:13 Essentially, it was a hack to speed up the "pick next instruction and initiate memory fetch if needed" operation. 23:48:40 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483E9AD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:49:36 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:50:03 antoszka_ [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 23:50:15 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:17 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:51:15 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:51:27 -!- antoszka_ is now known as antoszka 23:51:30 Alternately, if you want to go for -real- CPUs, it was 4004 -> 8008 -> 8080 -> Z80... Or 8080 -> gameboy CPU... 23:51:34 any of you know if smalltalk is worth learning? 23:51:37 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-uetchbwfhyutaekw] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:51:54 Smalltalk is the language that I wish I liked. 23:52:00 demmel_ [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-204-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:14 weirdo: the language is fine and the syntax is pretty, but the last time I looked the standard library is a mess 23:52:15 There's certainly an interesting mindset to it, though. 23:52:27 s/is/was/ 23:52:41 But you can pick most of it up from reading the blue and green books through a couple times. 23:54:06 i like OOP when done right 23:54:07 -!- demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-072-001.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:54:08 i.e. not java 23:54:23 but reusability is hard for non-trivial tasks 23:54:37 reusability between different projects? don't get me started 23:54:46 The smalltalk implementation I actually liked for a bit was strongtalk, but that was before they open-sourced the VM, and it wasn't quite stable, nor was there a good guide to using their UI framework... 23:54:52 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:55:02 OOP as it's taught in books for interchangeable Java minions is way overrated. 23:55:11 do they have cells? or is it better without cells? 23:55:49 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:58 "cells"? 23:56:02 a friend of mine worked as an intern in alan kay's company 23:56:07 Or do I not want to know? 23:56:15 they're working on some astounding stuff and jewel knows what 23:56:47 nyef, contraint propagation, as in kenny's flagship library 23:57:01 ... Ah. 23:57:10 but i have some complaints about cells 23:57:22 weirdo: proper name I think is Reactive programming or Dataflow Programming 23:57:37 if i reference a sequence assigned to a cell, dependents get fired at strange times 23:57:49 i wish it had worked with compound values better 23:58:01 and Cells is an overrated library, even if it made me finally study CL 23:59:03 it's great when it compiles. The last "official" distribution of it that I tried didn't. 23:59:55 and there's the deliberate lack of documentation and peculiar variable naming style