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kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["leaving"] 01:34:53 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:35:33 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:51 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:37:40 -!- mogunus [n=marco@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:38:57 mogunus [n=marco@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:08 fusss [i=73802566@gateway/web/freenode/x-kwnznizhivxeqnsc] has joined #lisp 01:41:29 is it just me or is there no predicate for testing for a sequence? 01:41:34 sequence-p? 01:42:05 (typep sequence 'sequence) 01:42:39 i know, i just thought sequence might have a predicate 01:43:17 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@c-67-170-103-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:43:24 it's one line of code away, if you're up for it. 01:43:27 skeptomai [n=cb@c-67-170-103-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:00 we will do a feasability study later this week 01:44:02 hefner: but who will pay for it? 01:46:13 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 01:51:52 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:52:24 gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 01:53:09 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:52 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.143.31] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:58:51 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-yinnlfhpckmcbcbc] has joined #lisp 02:00:25 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:37 freestylo [n=freestyl@72-11-230-10.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:54 list 02:02:06 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:02:44 -!- freestylo 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[n=scott@pool-71-173-76-220.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:33:44 gugamilare [n=gugamila@201-75-224-81-am.cpe.vivax.com.br] has joined #lisp 02:35:10 Wombatzus [n=wombatzu@adsl-67-124-148-26.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:52 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-yinnlfhpckmcbcbc] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:38:31 -!- froog [n=user@90-224-38-87-no94.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:40:20 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-142-14.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:40:59 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:37 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-142-14.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 02:46:47 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:48:04 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fozrhsyackqzlive] has joined #lisp 02:54:37 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fozrhsyackqzlive] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:58:03 LispWorks.5.1.winx86_64.lz77-SCRUBS.part80.rar 02:59:26 interesting, someone released a warez of lispworks? 02:59:32 list 03:00:28 *stassats* hates multi-volume archives 03:01:19 stassats: for some reason, "scene" loves them. Dunny why, they don't even keep to any of the old formats (like 1440KB fit-a-floppy one) 03:02:12 cargo cult? 03:03:21 dunno. I heard that "movie release" scene is also really weird. Even weirder than anime fansubbing community, known for it's "drama" 03:03:23 .rar etc. is useful when posting on usenet (binary groups) .. they do the RAID thing wrt. missing .rar-parts actually because of this 03:03:47 I use parchive2 to protect my backups :) 03:03:54 lnostdal: ah right, forgot about alt.bin* 03:05:23 Are there IRC clients that just join random channels and !list them? Because I've seen it exclusively in inappropriate groups. 03:06:06 "We're about compiler toolchains on POSIX-like systems." "Got any 0day GCC?" 03:06:32 ... 0day GCC? 03:06:45 interesting concept, even if flawed, IMHO 03:07:13 that's gcc with which gcc was compiled? 03:07:17 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 03:07:24 now, substituting the compiler to make it change code of certain applications 03:07:40 first, in the dawn of the mankind 03:18:14 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 03:20:01 heh .. nice; (clpython.parser::enter-mixed-lisp-python-syntax) @ http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/d2425c92cef7465c 03:20:10 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 03:20:49 Can I install SBCl with multi-thread support as a normal user on a shared server? 03:21:07 yes 03:21:32 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.218.85] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:21:41 stassats: oh really. I was thinking it's not possible. 03:23:38 ruepel0r [n=rue@s64-180-60-206.bc.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:53 bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.35] has joined #lisp 03:26:06 env INSTALL_ROOT=/path/to/installation/directory sh install.sh 03:26:41 then set SBCL_HOME to /path/to/installation/directory/lib/sbcl before running /path/to/installation/directory/bin/sbcl 03:26:52 joshe: oh, is that all i need? thanks! 03:27:21 I usually use a trivial shell script called sbcl to do that, and put it somewhere in my PATH 03:27:44 or sbcl-cvs if there's already an sbcl installed in /usr/local 03:29:54 So if we can install sbcl on any shared server, is there any benefit to choose hosting service like tech.coop which *officially* support lisp implementations? 03:29:57 tomoyuki28jp: that's all you need to install a copy of sbcl somewhere, you'll have to fiddle with customize-target-features.lisp unless it's the default on whatever platform you use 03:30:50 you can't install sbcl on a sharing server which works on ARM, for example 03:31:07 if you have shell access then I suppose you can install any program you want into your homedir, although it's possible you could get in trouble if they don't want you to do that 03:31:09 tomoyuki28jp: just get a VPS, less hassle 03:31:28 tomoyuki28jp, we're assuming you got "proper access" to your shared server here .. i mean; ssh access .. ability to "execute stuff" uploaded or "created" in your own home folder etc. 03:31:35 right, assuming the platform is supported 03:31:57 tomoyuki28jp, so shared server can mean many things 03:32:09 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:32:13 you can't install SBCL on "any shared server", just any sane shared server. 03:32:20 girzel [n=user@61.51.238.144] has joined #lisp 03:32:51 tomoyuki: Personally, I find that a virtual server service like linode works well. 03:34:01 yes, I understand what you guys mean. thanks. 03:34:12 stassats: What does ARM mean? 03:35:07 Advanced RISC Machine 03:35:14 p_l: yes, I agree with you that VPS make things much easier. 03:35:32 stassats: thanks 03:35:46 some have recommended http://prgmr.com/xen/ .. anything Xen-based is probably good though 03:37:39 lnostdal: wow, it's really cheap. thanks for the info. 03:38:47 yeah, there's almost no point in bothering with anything not VPS these days :P 03:39:20 lnostdal: I agree with you 03:39:32 the time and hassle (wrong PostgreSQL version! .. wrong glibc version! .. etc.) is not worth it 03:39:46 yeah 03:40:01 hackers hate limitations and want freedom. 03:40:05 yeah 03:40:55 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:18 Limitations give leverage. 03:41:40 also, VPSes that aren't running on some weird shit allow you to use custom kernels 03:42:31 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-useniaskzcnymzdd] has joined #lisp 03:43:29 bombshelter13p__ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.32] has joined #lisp 03:44:40 -!- rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:44:53 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 03:51:33 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@s64-180-60-206.bc.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:52:30 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:54:57 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.143.31] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:59:02 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:03:27 -!- bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.35] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:03:57 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:12:13 bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has joined #lisp 04:14:06 -!- bombshelter13p__ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.32] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:14:56 -!- xinming [n=hyy@122.238.70.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:17:18 bombshelter13p__ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.34] has joined #lisp 04:22:18 -!- bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:23:14 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-useniaskzcnymzdd] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:23:20 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 04:24:27 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:25:52 -!- bombshelter13p__ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.34] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:28:06 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068157113.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:23 the sbcl repl..is that a function i can call? 04:29:58 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 04:32:18 what do you mean, mcspiff ? 04:32:45 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.46.116] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:33:09 well, in my case im building an executable with sbcl. I have my own start up function that i want to call, setting up its own thread. Id then like to have the regular sbcl repl on the terminal, for debugging 04:33:38 (sb-introspect:function-lambda-list #'sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die) .. shows that the repl (toplevel) is started by sb-impl::toplevel-init 04:36:27 lnostdal: wow, wickedly powerful tool (package from the look of it), thanks! 04:36:59 i like running sbcl under rlwrap anyway though .. so i create a start.sh script and add an --eval to the line that starts the core 04:37:13 freestylo [n=freestyl@72-11-230-10.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:19 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:37:20 -!- gugamilare [n=gugamila@201-75-224-81-am.cpe.vivax.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:37:24 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:37:44 lnostdal: also sounds like what id want. Any other tips? ;-) 04:40:18 GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:31 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@c-67-170-103-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:40:41 skeptomai [n=cb@c-67-170-103-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:48 hum, well .. do you know about screen? .. that's nice too 04:40:57 so; screen rlwrap sbcl --no-userinit --eval '(write-line "hello world")' 04:41:26 and if you want to push that to the background instantly; 04:41:33 screen -dmS rlwrap sbcl --no-userinit --eval '(write-line "hello world")' 04:41:50 lnostdal: that would make debugging a lot easier. especially on the remote box. defiantly saving that 04:43:27 mcspiff: why not start a swank server? 04:45:24 p_l: didnt want to bother with redirecting ports for slime 04:45:41 ssh + rlwrap seems to be nice. Hadnt heard of rlwrap before 04:45:46 swank is a good idea .. i still run the core under screen though 04:46:25 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:47:45 djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 04:50:10 -!- gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:51:24 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 04:56:58 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.86.98] has joined #lisp 05:01:03 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-142-14.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:01:25 bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has joined #lisp 05:09:13 plage [n=user@81.82.210.57] has joined #lisp 05:09:16 Good morning. 05:09:48 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068157113.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:09:50 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068157113.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:59 morning 05:13:26 -!- girzel [n=user@61.51.238.144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:13:39 bombshelter13p__ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.32] has joined #lisp 05:17:03 anybody have an example of using the isearch feature in weblocks? 05:23:13 girzel [n=user@61.51.238.144] has joined #lisp 05:23:42 -!- bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:27:53 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:31:30 -!- freestylo [n=freestyl@72-11-230-10.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 05:34:21 -!- bombshelter13p__ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.32] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:37:52 -!- GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:46:05 bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.34] has joined #lisp 05:53:08 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 05:53:36 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest15766 05:53:53 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 05:58:16 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:21 -!- 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joined #lisp 08:03:46 clisp added threads. respect. 08:05:54 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 08:06:26 Joreji [n=user@40-191.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:06:56 someone should have told me about CLISP when i was messing around with BASIC on my old Amiga 500 ... :) 08:08:10 heh 08:08:40 but coding in C and shell+rexx on amiga was still quite nice also 08:09:46 most OS C functions supported tags which was nice 08:10:03 in 2.04+ 08:10:53 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 08:11:03 good morning 08:11:11 morning 08:11:52 masm [n=masm@a213-22-83-196.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 08:12:44 i.e. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tag_(programming)#In_AmigaOS 08:14:00 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 08:14:25 shame Microsoft didn't catch on to that 08:14:46 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:16:30 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590e84ec.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 08:17:52 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:20:49 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Guru_meditation.gif nice for a 404 page .. heh :) 08:23:44 phadthai: heh, so amiga guys actually used the "last null pointer struct member" trick that everyone else thinks is too hackish ;-) 08:24:37 http://www.ddj.com/cpp/184403480 08:24:57 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:25:13 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 08:27:04 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 08:30:11 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 08:33:28 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:34:14 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 08:37:04 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 08:40:25 so, has anyone done any analysis on the performance of using REVERSE vs. NREVERSE when returning values? 08:41:04 ie. the cost of consing vs. the cost of making data longer-lived instead of letting the GC take care of it 08:42:17 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 08:42:17 similar to http://www.merl.com/publications/TR1993-017/ for NREVERSE and RPLACD 08:42:56 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.143.31] has joined #lisp 08:44:52 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:46:58 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590e84ec.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:47:22 -!- EnglishGent [n=nobody@ai-core.demon.co.uk] has quit [] 08:48:19 mathrick: how is using reverse vs. nreverse similar to using nreverse vs. rplacd? 08:48:53 in one comparison, the methods are not very different, and in the other, they are. 08:49:13 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-69-232-195-22.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:32 -!- masm [n=masm@a213-22-83-196.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:50:12 antifuchs: they're similar in that you can use whichever to achieve the same result on returning arguments, and that despite the "obvious" implication of mutating being faster than copying, it's actually not at all obvious what the performance will be 08:50:45 I'm not trying to say it's obvious any one is faster than the other 08:50:46 similar to "object pools" usually being detrimental to your performance, because they interfere with GC 08:50:59 antifuchs: hence "obvious" 08:51:06 and hence my want of a proper analysis 08:51:28 it's just that the rplacd vs. nreverse techniques are fundamentally different in the way operations are performed 08:51:38 and nreverse vs. reverse aren't, really 08:51:52 eh? They are 08:52:03 copying vs. mutating in place are very different 08:52:21 you are welcome to benchmark it; I've got historic benchmarks of rplacd/nreverse in boinkmarks 08:52:31 please link 08:52:45 the traversal of the list to achieve the reversal has to be performed anyway. 08:53:20 http://sbcl.boinkor.net/boinkmarks/index#MAKE-LIST-SEQUENTIAL/PUSH-NREVERSE and following 08:53:52 -!- girzel [n=user@61.51.238.144] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:54:11 Is there a good RPC mechanism for CL? 08:54:50 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:55:13 pbusser3: there's a json implementation that's very good (st-json), and there's cxml-rpc (: 08:55:57 antifuchs: thanks 08:56:11 pbusser3: i'm kinda working on one, based on iolib and cl-serializer. not really ready yet though... 08:56:18 antifuchs: Can JSON be used between two CL processes? 08:56:22 pbusser3: sure 08:56:35 as long as you pass structured data back and forth 08:56:45 no data identity and stuff, of course 08:56:54 pbusser3: no, actually the EULA says at least one of them has to be Genuine JavaScript 08:57:07 oh don't be silly 08:57:09 attila_lendvai: Is the source code available somewhere? 08:57:11 but it will have condition handling, with proper error handling if the net connection or something else fails 08:57:40 pbusser3: it is, but it's not pushed: 08:57:46 pbusser3: http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi/darcsweb.cgi?r=cl-dwim-cl-remote-eval;a=summary 08:57:54 it'd be interesting to see how that pans out with real conditions 08:58:31 attila_lendvai: Serialization means that I can use complete Lisp data structures, right? 08:58:40 A Note on Distributed Computing has taught us that RPC is always more painful than local invocation, I'd like to see how much of the pain you can remove 08:58:44 dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 08:59:08 i'll install a condition handler that catches all conditions and sends over. all this will be guarded by another handler (actually two more levels, will use the same error handling as WUI, our web framework) 08:59:18 mathrick: Java's RMI is quite okay, although I don't have much experience with it. 08:59:21 pbusser3: functions and closures are sort of tricky. 08:59:52 mathrick: we needed someone to teach us that? 09:00:09 pbusser3: if you want it to be robuts, you *have* to handle failures, and I can't see a way to make it much less painful in Java 09:00:14 hefner: surprisingly, yes! 09:00:25 see CORBA for examples of people not knowing 09:00:26 pbusser3: cl-serializer can pretty much serialize anything in lisp, so that's not going to limit stuff. but identity management is not planned to be part of the lib... a remote eval will just copy the arguments and the return value through serialization 09:00:37 I wonder if there's a paper teaching us that something is greater than nothing, too. 09:00:41 hefner: there are still people trying to sell "fully transparent persistence/RPC" 09:00:49 though CORBA can be safely taken as an example of anything you can do wrong 09:00:50 hefner: there is a paper telling us that 1 + 1 = 2 09:01:08 mathrick: I thought that is what exceptions were for. 09:01:36 pbusser3: they ain't gonna handle themselves, and you have a lot more of 'em coming your way in remoting 09:01:39 also, a paper to tell spammers to take the author off a certain mailing list 09:01:52 Krystof: sure, depending on how much/little you take as given, it's not entirely straight-forward 09:02:09 hefner: clearly you haven't touched enough transparent RPC technologies; lucky you 09:02:24 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-66.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 09:02:32 -!- slackjaw [n=jolyonw@124-171-248-180.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:02:41 mathrick: I haven't, but the point seems obvious. 09:03:02 it isn't, I assure you 09:03:08 mathrick: Oh, sure. That goes without saying. 09:03:28 mathrick: The advantages can still outweigh the disadvantages though. 09:04:24 attila_lendvai: How far is the development of that library at the moment? 09:04:26 pbusser3: thus my wondering about how much having real conditions could ease that away, since you can use conditions on a much more fine-grained level than exceptions and without so much of a need to spread your logic all over 09:05:22 mathrick: What do you mean with conditions? (I appologise if it is a stupid question, but I'm rather new to CL.) 09:06:07 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:06:25 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-155.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:06:58 pbusser3: conditions are CL's error handling, and unlike exceptions, they are not required to unwind the stack. This gives you a much better protocol between the error reporter and handler, meaning the reporter can give more meaningful options and the handler can choose without poking in the reporter's guts 09:07:01 pbusser3: proof of concept, but the final version shouldn't be much bigger than this 09:08:58 mathrick: I see. 09:09:57 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-90-175-82.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 09:10:11 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-nsdqtecxxqqkremp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:10:24 attila_lendvai: Ok. I'll have a look at it later. 09:11:02 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:11:45 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 09:12:17 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 09:17:46 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 09:23:52 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:21 -!- Wombatzus [n=wombatzu@adsl-67-124-148-26.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:25:46 what's the correct way to reverse a vector with a fill-pointer, such that only the elements between 0 and the fill-pointer get reversed? 09:26:24 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qjgykdqxjfkqrvle] has joined #lisp 09:26:36 also, is it improper to set the fill-pointer of a vector to 0 and then start vector-pushing items again in order to re-use the vector? 09:26:56 That's the point of a fill-pointer. 09:27:06 ok, just checking. 09:27:09 what about the first question? 09:27:26 i'm using the vector to collect points traced by a bresenham's implementation 09:28:27 but (setf line (nreverse line)) does not seem to do what i want, i end up with large fill pointers (above 100, when the lines traced are actually short. 09:28:31 dto: I'd expect nreverse to work. 09:28:45 ok, then perhaps the bug is in my bresenham's implementation 09:28:46 really? 09:29:14 I'd expect nreverse to work, but it's not actually guaranteed 09:29:14 whoa, yeah i think it is, looking closer at the data 09:29:37 complain to your implementor if it doesn't in fact do the Right Thing 09:30:22 In sbcl, this works: (let ((v (make-array 10 :fill-pointer 4 :initial-contents #(1 2 3 4 -1 -2 -3 -4 -5 -6)))) (values (nreverse v) v)) 09:30:41 ah i was just writing that :) 09:30:42 thanks 09:30:47 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 09:30:51 (Funnily, initial-contents dimension must match that of the vector, not the fill-pointer). 09:31:11 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229238131.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:31:18 ok then it's my bresenham's that is the problem. 09:31:56 or elsewhere in this roguelike lighting code 09:31:57 :) 09:32:18 here is my image of the problem: http://lispgamesdev.blogspot.com/2009/08/ray-casting-debug-session.html 09:32:43 hi dto 09:32:50 you're doing gpu raycasting? 09:32:50 hi slava 09:33:00 no, 2d tile-based cpu raycasting :) 09:33:19 check the other blog posts on http://lispgamesdev.blogspot.com , it's my CL game project 09:33:39 oh, my housemate was doing raycasting/raytracing in opengl, hence I asked 09:34:52 :) 09:34:52 cool 09:35:00 yeah but the 3d stuff is a different world 09:35:07 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 09:37:32 -!- ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:38:52 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 09:39:20 -!- hrk [n=hrk@acurwa004172.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Riece/5.0.0 Emacs/22.3 (darwin)"] 09:39:37 hrk [n=hrk@acurwa004172.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:41:28 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 09:45:05 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 09:46:24 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E6BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:57 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 09:49:41 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 09:51:28 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 09:54:57 mathrick pasted "Blocks are awesome" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84659 09:56:10 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qjgykdqxjfkqrvle] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:57:32 anyone can think of another language in which this can be done easily? 09:57:35 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.29.148] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.12/2009070611]"] 09:57:47 scheme obviously, anything more? 09:57:59 any language with first class functions 09:58:05 what's remarkable about this? 09:59:47 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 10:03:02 HG` [n=wells@xdslev189.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:04:19 slava: exiting from the parent block 10:04:41 any language with the lone "return" statement won't be able to do that 10:08:55 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:11:36 -!- gh7d395pi69wd [n=asdf@unaffiliated/gh7d395pi69wd] has quit ["( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )"] 10:12:17 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:12:41 mathrick: if you think of C, can be done with setjmp/longjmp; if you think of Haskell, can be done with the continuation monad 10:13:59 not all language implementations would accept the non-latin1 character, though :) 10:14:07 Anything with exceptions ... 10:14:26 right, I didn't think of exceptions 10:14:35 -!- hrk [n=hrk@acurwa004172.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:14:40 Which is equivalent to returning a magical kind of value that is by convention simply returned unless you have a magical kind of handler for it. 10:14:55 I would solve it with a higher order function that cehcked if each element of a list matched a predicate 10:14:56 So, all you need is a simple calling convention that does that. 10:15:01 Just a bit of discipline. :) 10:15:35 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:15:38 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 10:15:42 slava: which is pretty much equivalent to having ten levels of nested ifs because you're writing structurally and your prof won't let you use break/goto 10:16:00 no, checking if all eleemtns match a predicate is frequently useful 10:16:03 also, I don't have a prof 10:16:19 just checking elements individually won't give you SORTED-P 10:16:38 slava: and that function is called EVERY, btw 10:16:38 you build a list of pairs of consecutive elements 10:16:40 and check that 10:17:09 but using return-from in anonymous functions passed to other [utility] functions to short-circuit sequence processing is handy anyway 10:17:18 it is 10:18:33 What's nice about it is that it is lexically scoped. 10:18:41 Otherwise it is equivalent to catch/throw. 10:19:24 slava: does your compiler do deforestation not to cons up the intermediate tuple list? 10:19:30 yes 10:19:36 cool 10:22:11 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590e84ec.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 10:22:21 rouslan_ [n=Rouslan@pool-64-222-181-252.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:24 slava: is this a new feature? I just found this: http://www.mail-archive.com/factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net/msg03424.html 10:23:20 ausente2 [n=user7994@189-19-121-35.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 10:23:20 -!- ausente [n=user7994@189-19-121-35.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:23:59 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:24:08 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:24:18 michaelw: no, I'm thinking of another feature 10:24:22 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 10:25:26 getting rid of pairs constructed here is easier than fusion 10:25:58 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:28:23 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:28:23 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit 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[n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:52:52 ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:52:52 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 10:52:52 nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #lisp 10:52:52 dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 10:52:52 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 10:52:52 luis [n=user@r42.eu] has joined #lisp 10:52:56 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:53:12 -!- bdowning_ is now known as bdowning 10:54:26 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 10:55:16 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:00:01 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E466E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:05 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 11:07:44 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:08:53 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 11:08:55 pokey9 [n=pokey@hlfxns0187w-142167198059.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:05 hello 11:09:09 cracki [n=cracki@40-123.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:09:25 im using clisp with emacs, from the REPL... 11:09:43 im wondering how to use it by compiling files of code? 11:10:37 are you using SLIME? 11:10:41 yes 11:10:52 it has a key for compiling a file 11:11:01 was something like C-c C-k 11:11:09 ok, lets see... 11:11:45 see also: 11:11:50 minion: xach-asdf 11:11:50 xach-asdf: Xach's article "Making a small Common Lisp project" can be found at http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 11:12:23 thanks minion... 11:13:34 excellent link... Ive been looking for something exactly like that. ^__^ 11:16:25 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 11:16:48 scottmaccal [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has joined #lisp 11:17:09 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [] 11:18:32 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:19:46 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:20:55 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 11:22:24 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 11:22:37 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:59 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:33:28 -!- prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:35:01 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 11:36:52 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:36:58 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@host-66-235-80-184.warpspeed1.net] has quit ["leaving"] 11:37:20 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:37:53 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 11:39:23 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-241-91.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:39:30 -!- cracki [n=cracki@40-123.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 11:40:08 An :around method defined for a slot-accessor is not called when the slot is being setf'd? 11:40:18 the_shepherd [n=hello@vpn-240-20.roam.ucl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:40:20 What is the proper thing to do in this case? 11:40:31 hello everyone 11:41:24 I have an interest in knowing more about Lisp, and starting out online I see alot of cross-references between Lisp and Scheme.. are they both very similar? 11:41:26 -!- pokey9 [n=pokey@hlfxns0187w-142167198059.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:41:37 *nunb* thinks http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node77.html is the answer 11:41:52 the_shepherd: yes, you can start learning either. 11:41:57 Lisp is a family of languages. Scheme and Common Lisp are both members. 11:42:04 the_shepherd: there's a lot of common concepts between them 11:42:53 ah ok, as long as it wouldn't matter which of either I go with :p 11:44:29 Well, it might matter to an extent, depending on what you wanted to do 11:44:52 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has joined #lisp 11:44:57 For learning the various scheme environments are best (come with built-in stuff) but for "in-anger" projects imho it is hard to start with scheme. 11:45:09 hello 11:45:11 Primarily because of the difficult choice of libraries. 11:45:31 the_shepherd: look at PLT scheme or drscheme.. 11:46:06 but learning one once you're familiar with the other shouldn't be too tricky 11:46:10 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:46:34 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-153-129.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:46:34 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-17-7.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:46:56 nunb: ah, in terms of libraries is common lisp better? 11:47:00 -!- aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@adsl-ull-5-64.49-151.net24.it] has left #lisp 11:50:02 Although scheme has quite capable libraries, they are spread out over many implementations (library packaging mechanisms differ over implementations though there are some commonalities). Overall it seems CL has the bigger set. If you are programming small projects, or learning, scheme has more than what you need. More info: http://www.cliki.net/Current%20recommended%20libraries 11:50:20 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:50:20 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:50:20 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:50:20 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:50:20 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:50:20 -!- mkfort [i=xyOiN4jf@68-189-164-209.dhcp.spbg.sc.charter.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:50:21 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:50:21 -!- luis [n=user@r42.eu] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:50:21 -!- nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:50:21 -!- galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:50:21 -!- Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:50:21 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:50:21 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:50:43 Again, the integrated learning environments in scheme may be better since that is one of its goals. 11:51:19 lisppaste: url? 11:51:19 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 11:52:14 Beef [n=Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 11:52:19 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:19 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 11:52:19 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:52:19 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:52:19 mkfort [i=xyOiN4jf@68-189-164-209.dhcp.spbg.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 11:52:19 Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 11:52:19 galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:19 ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:19 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:19 nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #lisp 11:52:19 dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 11:52:19 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 11:52:19 luis [n=user@r42.eu] has joined #lisp 11:52:22 the_shepherd: note that there's also a #scheme channel, whereas #lisp focuses on Common Lisp only. 11:52:46 I have a very subjective question: what is the 'easiest' gui framework to use 11:52:54 nunb pasted "Around methods and setf" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84661 11:53:01 I tried mcclim and gtk few years back 11:53:04 What am I doing wrong here? 11:53:16 Beef: Did you look at ltk? 11:53:46 http://www.peter-herth.de/ltk/ says it's "The easy way to do Lisp GUI programming" 11:53:53 Just what you want :-) 11:53:57 nope because it had some issues back in the day 11:53:58 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 11:54:04 mkay 11:54:06 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:54:06 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:54:06 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:54:06 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:54:06 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:54:06 -!- mkfort [i=xyOiN4jf@68-189-164-209.dhcp.spbg.sc.charter.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:54:06 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:54:06 -!- luis [n=user@r42.eu] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:54:06 -!- nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:54:06 -!- galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:54:06 -!- Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:54:06 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:54:06 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:54:15 Which platform are you doing GUI in? 11:54:24 I found mcclim to be nice because the code structure reflected the gui structure nicely 11:54:26 osx 11:54:37 Hm, CCL has some new stuff going on 11:54:48 x-platform would be a nice boon, but yeah ... 11:54:52 (You can build in Interface Builder and use the nib files) 11:54:58 afaik 11:55:06 most ppl just target webkit because GUI toolkits usually blow ass 11:55:57 -!- dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:55:57 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:55:57 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:55:57 -!- vsync_ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:55:57 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:55:57 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:55:57 -!- Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:55:57 -!- DrForr_ [n=drforr@pool-173-55-19-85.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has 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jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 12:31:57 phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 12:32:39 demmel [n=demmel@e209.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:34:14 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:34:53 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 12:35:38 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-4-84.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:38:42 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:39:15 Can one copy slot structure from one object to another? 12:40:10 what is slot structure? 12:40:44 good point. (Do you mean slot _values_, or actually make one object have a bunch of new slots taken from another object?) 12:40:59 copy-list won't work for me, Krystof: the latter. 12:41:01 masm [n=masm@a213-22-83-196.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 12:41:08 (I am trying to implement an undo feature) 12:41:27 clhs change-class 12:41:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_chg_cl.htm 12:41:48 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:41:51 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 12:43:03 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:43:19 I found metacopy http://common-lisp.net/project/metacopy/documentation/metacopy-package/index.html but it seems to be told how to copy slots. 12:44:02 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:44:03 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 12:44:12 stassats: but that is destructive 12:44:24 um, so is the act of copying slot structure 12:44:37 if the object has a new slot structure, then it doesn't have its old structure any more 12:44:38 duh 12:45:03 (maybe you should try to explain clearly what your actual requirements are?) 12:45:42 sorry: I meant slot values, not structure. 12:46:47 /me needs to "make one object have a bunch of new slots taken from another object" 12:46:47 12:47:23 so, objects are of a different class? 12:47:48 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:48:13 I need to " actually make one object have a bunch of new slots taken from another object" 12:48:37 stassats: they are of the same class. Slot values one level deep need to be copied. 12:49:02 so, you actually don't need new slots? 12:49:12 stassats: correct. 12:50:17 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 12:50:22 then what difficulties do you have? just create new instance and feel slots with desired values 12:50:37 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:51:14 stassats: Reading this i wounder: Is there something like "copy-instance" for CLOS objects? 12:51:18 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590e84ec.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:51:32 demmel: no, you have to write it 12:51:44 demmel: it's easy to write yourself, here is one example: 12:51:52 scottmaccal [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has joined #lisp 12:52:09 so why is it not provided by CLOS? 12:52:32 demmel: perhaps because of 'how deep should the copy go' ? 12:53:32 or perhaps this is relevant http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html 12:54:01 -!- cracki [n=cracki@40-123.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 12:54:13 fair point. but for structs there is a copy function provided. If you need more specific behaviour you could still specialze copy-instance for your special class. Are there other issues? 12:54:38 A I'll check out the link. 12:55:56 structs are low level and carry a lot of historical baggage for backward compatibility reasons. You shouldn't expect MOPery to work on structures, for instance. 12:56:09 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 12:57:14 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:59:41 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:00:54 demmel: why do you want to copy an object onto anyther? This is not something that happens in real time: you don't copy an employee to another. You don't copy a bolt to another. You don't copy a country to another. 13:01:03 s/any/ano/ 13:02:55 matimago: while I concede that I use this code very seldomly, I don't think you argument is valid 13:03:25 matimago: I think is an ignorant argument. Why is there copy-list? Why is there copy-tree? One needs to copy datastructures all the time, e.g. to not change the original but still use it in some algorithm. 13:03:36 There's a memo pattern to save the state of an object. 13:04:03 demmel: objects are designed to be used in OOP, were the internal structure represents an external entity. 13:04:04 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:04:41 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:05:40 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 13:05:54 matimago: I still don't see how this means I would (or should) never want to copy objects. 13:06:00 matimago: But some procedures demand "temporary" changes to your objects. 13:06:23 Eg, allow a user to b0rk the hell out of a class schedule, but if they click cancel, show them their original schedule, all pristine. 13:06:47 That's what the memo pattern has been invented for. 13:06:56 Reference? 13:07:43 matimago: What about a drawing application, where I'd certainly want to copy allready drawn shapes. 13:07:44 Memento. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memento_pattern 13:08:08 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:08:19 demmel: no, you don't "copy" the objects, you only copy some features, like relative positions or colors. 13:08:47 There are a lot of other attributes that you would never copy, such as an external id, the layer, etc. 13:09:46 (make-instance my-class :take-values-from other-instance) is not (copy-instance other-instance). 13:10:16 -!- Jduht78 [n=Jduht78@host217-34-51-26.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:10:18 matimago: That link has a very abstruse example in Java, which *only* works because Strings are copied in Java (ie there is an underlying string-copy taking place). 13:10:49 -!- Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has quit [] 13:10:57 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 13:11:01 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.programming/msg/9e7b8aaec1794126 13:11:14 matimago: How is it different if "take-valiues-from-other-instance" means taking all values (for all slots) 13:11:44 It almost never means taking all the values. The depth of copy can be 0, 1 or more. 13:11:52 And this depends on the fields. 13:12:05 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:12:17 matimago: ah, much better. And this is similar to what I wanted to do: go through all the slots, and somehow save a copy of them. 13:12:41 matimago: very useful, thanks. 13:12:58 demmel: moreover, if you really needed to copy your specific class of object like you say, you would have already finished implementing it while this discussion occured. You discussed, ergo you don't need it. 13:13:07 ;-) 13:13:23 -!- phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 13:13:34 matimago: Indeed. I'm just woundering :) 13:14:04 matimago: thanks for that link too, I'll try to adapt it into Ruby, I guess :) 13:14:04 See also http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/82c409386298530e/ee09f8475bc7b2a0?hl=en&q=memento+pattern+author:pascal+author:bourguignon#ee09f8475bc7b2a0 for my view that design pattern = macro. 13:14:29 matimago: cause it sounds more interesting than serializing changesets into RDBMS 13:14:40 erm... 13:15:13 demmel: I was making a copy-object thing last year. It became complicated with making copies of certain types of things. 13:15:28 demmel: Ended up rethinking the whole thing and abandonded the copy-object. :) 13:15:31 matimago: I want to save some state that doesn't fit the rest of schema :D 13:16:01 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:16:57 p_l: you need an OODBMS. 13:18:28 schme: ;) I should accept that wisdom. But probably I will end up doing the same one day and coming to the same conclusion eventually ;) 13:19:04 demmel: I seem to recall my problem was that I was having slot-values that were functions. Now how to copy a function, I was thniking. 13:19:08 demmel: and it all got very odd. 13:19:29 schme: since you can't mutate functions, you can share them 13:19:54 michaelw: Yes. But wouldn't be much of a copy-object then. 13:19:54 michaelw: some functions are closure and they might be mutable. 13:20:02 hm, maybe we should have sb-ext:copy-closure :) 13:20:29 argh :) 13:20:46 nikodemus: Gosh no. Me not dreaming up some good way to do it all made me realise that my need for a copy-object was due to crap design :) 13:20:59 well, hbaker mentions it already, IIRC 13:21:48 ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 13:22:24 schme, demmel: if you want to take another stab at it, how about you extend mw-equiv with a matching copy operation? :) 13:22:24 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:38 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 13:22:56 mw-equiv? 13:23:17 minion: mw-equiv? 13:23:18 mw-equiv: MW-EQUIV is a Library which provides one of many possible equivalence relations between Common Lisp objects, similar to the standard :(CLHS "EQUAL") function family, but extensible. http://www.cliki.net/mw-equiv 13:23:28 oh is some thing at some ~michaelw url. 13:23:39 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:40 said google :P 13:24:19 That's quite interesting. 13:28:12 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:29:52 matimago: I'm not sure if it will really fit the app 13:30:22 manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has joined #lisp 13:34:13 shouldn't this line :collect `(slot-value self ',slot) in matimago's link be a recursive call of save-memento? 13:35:14 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 13:36:01 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:36:46 nunb: why do you think so? 13:37:01 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:37:01 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:37:01 -!- rouslan_ [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:37:01 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:37:01 -!- mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-4fe070d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:37:01 -!- a-s [n=user@92.81.135.104] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:37:01 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:37:01 -!- sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.utwente.nl] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:37:01 -!- Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:37:01 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:37:04 -!- scode_ [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:37:04 -!- slava [n=slava@li13-154.members.linode.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:37:04 -!- cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:37:04 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:37:04 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:37:24 ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-24-106.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:39:07 lisppaste: url? 13:39:07 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 13:41:03 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-69.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:41:18 robsynnot [n=irchon@mobileinternet2.o2.ie] has joined #lisp 13:44:18 -!- robsynnot [n=irchon@mobileinternet2.o2.ie] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:44:21 -!- gh7d395pi69wd [n=asdf@unaffiliated/gh7d395pi69wd] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:45:16 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:45:17 Krystof pasted "Days at home: or, ucd.lisp explained" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84664 13:45:19 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:19 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 13:45:19 rouslan_ [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 13:45:19 S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has joined #lisp 13:45:19 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-4fe070d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:45:19 a-s [n=user@92.81.135.104] has joined #lisp 13:45:19 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 13:45:19 sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 13:45:19 Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:19 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 13:45:19 scode_ [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 13:45:19 slava [n=slava@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 13:45:19 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 13:45:19 cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 13:45:19 Xof [n=crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:48:49 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:49 nunb: thanks, you made our point magistrally! 13:50:59 michaelw: grokked it better 13:51:20 galdor_ [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:22 -!- xan_ is now known as xan 13:51:46 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-24-106.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:51:46 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:51:46 -!- vsync_ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:51:46 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@134.226.83.42] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:51:46 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:51:46 -!- DrForr_ [n=drforr@pool-173-55-19-85.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:51:46 -!- Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:51:46 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:51:46 -!- dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:51:46 matimago: how do you mean? learned something new today, thanks. 13:52:07 ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-24-106.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:52:07 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:52:07 dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 13:52:07 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 13:52:07 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 13:52:07 vsync_ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 13:52:07 Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #lisp 13:52:07 DrForr_ [n=drforr@pool-173-55-19-85.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:07 rsynnott [i=rsynnott@134.226.83.42] has joined #lisp 13:52:45 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:52:45 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:52:45 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:52:46 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:52:46 -!- mkfort [i=xyOiN4jf@68-189-164-209.dhcp.spbg.sc.charter.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:52:46 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:52:46 -!- nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:52:46 -!- galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:52:46 -!- Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:52:46 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:52:46 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:52:47 nunb: asking whether save-memento should be recursive or not... ;-) 13:52:59 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 13:53:14 and yes, if you mean that "the only reason I wanted to copy objects is because I want to memoize/memento-pattern then" then, yes, that was absolutely correct! 13:53:14 We don't know, it depends on the object. 13:53:18 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 13:53:18 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:53:18 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:53:18 mkfort [i=xyOiN4jf@68-189-164-209.dhcp.spbg.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:53:18 Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 13:53:18 ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:18 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:18 nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #lisp 13:53:18 dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:53:18 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 13:53:39 Good. 13:54:02 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-241-91.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:54:19 *nunb* agrees, it depends on the object. 13:54:49 perhaps define-memento could take a parameter to enable that? 13:55:48 nunb: it depends on the intended use of the object, which is not the same 13:56:00 Indeed. Notice how it already takes a list of base-class-slots to be included in the memento. We could enhance this declaration. 13:56:11 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:56:23 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181134120.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:56:30 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 13:56:34 I mean, the person who uses define-memento is the client, and they can define the "semantics of copy" with a :deep-copy etc. flag (though it would not be specific enough, I guess). 13:56:42 So you could define deep or shallow mementos for the same object. 13:56:57 matimago: yes. 13:57:05 We could provide a specific copy function. 13:57:51 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 13:57:58 (define-memento mem my-class ((string-slot copy-seq) (list-slot copy-seq) (tree-slot copy-tree) (integer-slot identity) ...)) 14:00:18 malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:03:15 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has left #lisp 14:04:58 matimago: so what do you do if the to-be-modified object is shared? mutating it means you need to reason about all share sites 14:04:59 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 14:05:39 I am not advocating copying and mutation of objects. Functionnal data structures are probably more efficient when you'd want to do that. 14:05:42 -!- ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has left #lisp 14:06:56 In Lisp, you could quite easily write a COW wrapper over any object. 14:07:16 Like an array? 14:07:18 COW = Copy On Write, it would copy only the fields that are modified. 14:07:32 matimago: which is what I use copy-instance for 14:07:39 Indeed arrays are the most problematic data structure in this case. Depending on how many slots are modified... 14:07:53 How would you make aref work? 14:07:56 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-69-232-195-22.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:08:00 Slowly. 14:08:02 :-) 14:08:07 That's not an answer. 14:08:53 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 14:09:04 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 14:09:16 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:09:16 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:09:52 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 14:09:54 Zhivago: the point is that there is no general answer. You have to do it depending on the algorithms (you might prefer to change the algorithm), the data and the constraints you have. 14:09:57 depending on the access structure, a persistent array could be used (which is actually somewhat related to the memento pattern, where the caretaker is a tree) 14:10:22 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:11:08 So, you couldn't easily wrap arrays, then? 14:11:12 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:11:53 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068157113.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:15 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:45 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:13:45 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:13:45 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:13:45 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:13:45 -!- mkfort [i=xyOiN4jf@68-189-164-209.dhcp.spbg.sc.charter.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:13:45 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:13:45 -!- nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:13:45 -!- Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:13:45 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:13:45 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:14:33 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 14:14:33 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:14:33 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:14:33 mkfort [i=xyOiN4jf@68-189-164-209.dhcp.spbg.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:14:33 Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 14:14:33 ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:33 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:33 nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #lisp 14:14:33 dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:14:33 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 14:15:31 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 14:17:21 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has joined #lisp 14:19:59 -!- Borbus_ is now known as Borbus 14:26:30 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 14:34:06 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 14:34:31 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 14:35:14 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:36:24 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:32 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.143.31] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:38:32 milanj [n=milan@212.200.223.162] has joined #lisp 14:39:17 Wombatzus [n=wombatzu@adsl-67-124-148-26.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:20 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has joined #lisp 14:41:08 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 14:41:14 Greetings. 14:42:14 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-102-51.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:42:45 -!- Wombatzus [n=wombatzu@adsl-67-124-148-26.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:43:35 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.15] has joined #lisp 14:45:45 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has quit [] 14:45:46 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 14:47:09 Wombatzus [n=wombatzu@67.124.148.26] has joined #lisp 14:48:11 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 14:48:51 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.143.31] has joined #lisp 14:50:58 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068157113.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:52:55 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 14:57:56 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E466E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:02:25 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 15:04:07 hey guys. What is that amazing emacs thing one uses to get stuff pasted to paste.lisp.org ? 15:04:17 milanj- [n=milan@91.150.120.244] has joined #lisp 15:04:34 lisppaste.el 15:04:38 -!- prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:04:40 ah 15:04:47 that's a no-brainer :D 15:06:31 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:08:20 phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 15:10:17 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-55.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 15:13:21 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.223.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:15:19 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 15:16:08 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:17:24 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has quit [] 15:17:33 nikodemus: got a mo? 15:17:48 *jdz* 's iTunes Playlist "Radio" is 0:00 long, with 6 songs totalling 0.0 MB. 15:17:53 oops, sorry 15:18:15 that's a lot of copies of a sped-up version of 4'33" 15:18:19 it does compress well, though 15:19:46 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 15:19:49 -!- phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 15:21:01 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has left #lisp 15:21:42 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 15:21:44 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:22:01 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 15:22:03 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Client Quit] 15:23:03 TR2N [i=email@89-180-224-243.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 15:25:07 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:26:59 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:29:02 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 15:29:12 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1D913.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:46 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 15:36:39 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068157113.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 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coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:12:18 ruediger_ [n=ruediger@188-23-190-104.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 16:14:11 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-24-106.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:15:06 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-178-201.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 16:16:52 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:26 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 16:18:20 -!- kidd1 [n=kidd@88.Red-88-16-71.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:20:03 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:22:03 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:22:04 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-17-7.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:23:46 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 16:23:49 hello 16:23:54 sup 16:24:08 vsync_ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 16:24:48 Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #lisp 16:25:48 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:03 attila_lendvai: I have a question regarding the meta-gui in cl-dwim 16:27:05 attila_lendvai: I have a process which is defined as (def persistent-process billing-process-2008 (billing-process) ...) 16:28:21 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@200.25.197.105] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:28:29 then I create a menu entry which does (make-viewer (select-billing-processes)) 16:28:29 16:28:31 -!- logBot0311 [n=logBot@59.92.202.56] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:28:50 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:29:24 in the UI, I see the list of processes, and I call also click on the corresponding icon for the detail view 16:29:55 s/call/can 16:30:20 in the inspector, the command "continue-process" is available 16:32:29 dysinger [n=dysinger@200.25.197.105] has joined #lisp 16:33:28 hrk [n=hrk@acurwa002073.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:35:28 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.15] has joined #lisp 16:37:40 kami-: and? 16:38:31 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:12 -!- hrk [n=hrk@acurwa002073.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Riece/5.0.0 Emacs/22.3 (darwin)"] 16:41:04 :) I'm trying to reproduce the error to be exact. The error was due to the component's slot called 'form' being empty. 16:42:03 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:43:15  16:43:42 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:43:55 kami-: it's summer... but we are moving on to the refactored codebase, i guess small glitches like this will also be affected 16:44:08 kami-: but if you can come up with a fix then the patch is welcome! 16:44:56 kami-: but i'm going offline now, i've got some virus or something... need to get some rest. if it's a roadblock then drop a mail to the list or catch levy here... 16:45:41 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590e84ec.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 16:48:51 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:13 attila_lendvai: is the refactored code base pullable somewhere? 16:50:48 kami-: it is, there are a bunch of -unstable repos, but it's not there yet... although levy is reviving the metagu part now, which is the last step 16:52:05 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host6.190-138-171.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 16:52:32 danlei [n=user@pD9E2E1C9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:16 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 16:53:32 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-ribvkaxcbaoipzpw] has joined #lisp 17:00:50 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 17:01:53 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:04:41 -!- ruediger_ [n=ruediger@188-23-190-104.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:04:43 Tordek__ [n=tordek@host195.190-137-244.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:05:20 attila_lendvai: OK. I'll try to be patient. :) 17:05:26 bye 17:05:39 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068157113.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:05:40 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:06:06 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host163.190-137-177.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:07:27 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068157113.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:38 gonzojive1 [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 17:08:36 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068157113.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:13:10 gugamilare [n=gugamila@201-75-224-81-am.cpe.vivax.com.br] has joined #lisp 17:14:25 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068157113.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:13 Tordek [n=tordek@host145.190-226-114.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:15:16 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 17:15:17 in a slime inspector buffer, is there a way to tell slime to refresh the inspector? I.E the object has been modified and i wish to see the change 17:15:39 g? 17:17:05 i swear i checked the bindings. 17:17:37 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@host6.190-138-171.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:17:38 g is a standard way for updating something in Emacs 17:18:16 Ah, good to know 17:19:28 s/standard way/common binding/ 17:25:27 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068157113.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:26:26 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068157113.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:48 well, my attempt to have the inspector window periodically refresh was a total failure. 17:28:02 elisp run-with-timer 17:28:03 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for run-with-timer. 17:28:22 -!- Tordek__ [n=tordek@host195.190-137-244.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:28:23 bummer 17:28:26 elisp defun 17:28:27 http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/elisp-manual/html_node/elisp_167.html#IDX483 17:29:03 mdavid [n=mdavid@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:29:37 skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has joined #lisp 17:30:48 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:30:59 stassats: was attempting to use run-with-idle timer. Two problems arose. 1) running slime-inspector-reinspect steals focus and 2) idle timer keeps going after the inspector is closed. I could probably figure out #2 but i had no idea how to fix #1 17:32:19 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181134120.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:32:31 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #lisp 17:32:52 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host140.190-137-250.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:34:33 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:34:38 #1 is nasty 17:35:13 My buggy webpage (hunchentoot) is generating more than the 11 levels of errors that SBCL allows (perhaps due to the browser retrying its queries?). This kills SBCL, anyway to make development a little more painless? 17:35:55 anyway -> any way... 17:35:56 error in reporting errors? 17:36:29 stassats: that at me? 17:36:39 yes, nested errors 17:36:55 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 17:37:09 yes nested errors 17:37:21 wrongly initialized conditions, maybe? 17:37:22 is the error that causes it to drop to ldb 17:38:43 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [No route to host] 17:39:06 attila_lendvai: is there any tutorial/docs on cl-dwim? 17:39:17 hunderbird 17:39:23 Oops, sorry. 17:40:24 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:41:43 Tordek__ [n=tordek@host52.190-231-59.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:43:24 p_l: wrong question, or to the wrong guy. at least.. :) although, we will set up a homepage for our company and it will have an interactive tech demo section with examples, colored code fragments, etc... 17:43:41 p_l: ETA is a month i guess 17:45:54 coderdad [n=coderdad@wsip-70-184-159-102.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:24 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host145.190-226-114.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:47:48 heh 17:48:03 peddie_ [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:10 smithzv: if you have everything designed correctly, a browser retrying shouldn't cause nested errors 17:49:03 smithzv: if you can track down the original error reported, try signalling it yourself and see if it goes kaboom too 17:49:23 that should give you a clue if the problem lies with your conditions themselves 17:49:36 attila_lendvai: oh, that remings me 17:49:49 attila_lendvai: do you guys have anything publically accessible for WUI? 17:50:07 levy gave me a link to your devbox once, but it was 1) your devbox 2) in hungarian :) 17:50:10 -!- spilman_ [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-37-11.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:50:16 Tordek [n=tordek@host2.190-137-241.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:50:28 _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:50:33 both of those reasons make me think linking people to it might not be the most courteous thing to do 17:50:53 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:50:58 mcspiff: i got #1 fixed 17:52:49 mathrick: we will set up dwim.hu in at most a month, and it'll be a localized site. the virtual machine is already running, but there's some issue with the net connection... 17:53:21 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@wsip-70-184-159-102.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:53:51 -!- gugamilare [n=gugamila@201-75-224-81-am.cpe.vivax.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:54:15 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@host140.190-137-250.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:54:31 attila_lendvai: I see. The various renderers thing you have going is very interesting and I'd like to steal at least some of it, which is much helped by having a test site running :) 17:55:19 mathrick: the source code of the site will be available, inspectable through itself, with live code coloring, etc 17:55:23 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-24-191.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:55:26 cool 17:55:32 attila_lendvai: I haven't looked at the code enough, do you have something like a DSL to express, say, data that can be rendered either on the server or on the client? 17:58:29 I'd expect it to be there if you have renderers for CSV and PDF 17:58:42 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host25.190-227-38.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:00:08 mathrick: the only DSL we have is a language to build gui's like (vertical-list () some more stuff). but it's just a bunch of factory macros... the pdf and csv stuff is just an aternative backend to render the server side component hierarchy... 18:00:30 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 18:02:21 attila_lendvai: aha. I'm looking for an inspiration in building a "language" (taking the broad sense of "language", not necessarily strictly a macroified DSL, it will have a protocol and hooks and stuff for sure) to help with building AJAX-ified components 18:02:32 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:02:38 in a way that wouldn't depend on whether the rendering happens on the client or on the server 18:03:28 -!- Tordek__ [n=tordek@host52.190-231-59.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:04:32 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:05:19 Tordek__ [n=tordek@host201.190-138-170.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:08:38 mathrick: wui is a traditional gui with component hierarchy on the server side and the client acting kind of like a remote desktop view with partial ajax redraw 18:08:47 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:09:11 GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:04 attila_lendvai: yeah, that's what we have in weblocks ATM as well. But I'm not happy with our rendering protocol, which is pretty much "it happens by magic, unless you need a custom widget, in which case it's back to HTML and linking JS to it by hand" 18:11:43 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host2.190-137-241.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:12:57 merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has joined #lisp 18:13:28 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@200.25.197.105] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:14:10 -!- merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:14:28 *attila_lendvai* goes to sick leave... bye 18:14:29 merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has joined #lisp 18:15:56 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 18:17:40 dysinger [n=dysinger@200.25.197.105] has joined #lisp 18:18:23 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 18:18:31 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@host25.190-227-38.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:19:17 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 18:19:23 francogrex [n=franco@87.65.58.88] has joined #lisp 18:24:24 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 18:25:33 -!- Tordek__ [n=tordek@host201.190-138-170.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:31:40 -!- vsync_ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:32:06 vsync_ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 18:32:10 -!- Adlai is now known as Adlai-AWAY 18:32:34 -!- milanj- is now known as milanj 18:34:23 coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has joined #lisp 18:36:06 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:14 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:38:23 djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 18:39:17 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.15] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:41:56 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:43:34 -!- proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:44:34 shouldn't cl-walker:macroexpand-all also pick up shadowed macros (flet)? 18:44:55 because it doesn't 18:45:57 -!- merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has quit [] 18:46:43 Tordek [n=tordek@host42.190-137-199.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:47:50 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.233.240] has joined #lisp 18:49:47 -!- Adlai-AWAY is now known as Adlai 18:50:24 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:50:36 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:53 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host34.190-226-116.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:53:36 -!- vsync_ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:53:50 vsync_ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 18:55:32 froog [n=user@90-224-38-87-no94.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 18:56:41 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:56:43 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 18:57:27 demmel: what do you mean 'pick up shadowed macros'? 19:00:13 demmel pasted "cl-walker" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84685 19:00:15 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 19:01:09 in the last line of the expansion it should be "(foo 0)" shouldn't it? 19:01:45 clhs flet 19:01:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm 19:03:59 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 19:04:03 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:05:00 i'm trying to connect to a remote swank from emacs for the first time. 4005 works locally but i can't even telnet into it from another computer (they are on same subnet)... using cvs slime, sbcl on arch linux. any ideas? 19:05:45 stassats: I know lisp will interpret it this way. I was just woundering if cl-walker was supposed to handle this correctly, or (for whatever reason that possibly exceeds my imagination) expand the way it does currently. 19:06:01 bunz: it listens on 127.0.0.1 19:06:03 one thing is that the server has multiple nics it might be only listening on 127.0.0.1/192.168.1.x not the other... is there a way to tell swank to listen on a particular interface 19:06:06 ah ha 19:06:08 bunz: use ssh tunnel 19:06:13 :( 19:06:35 or change swank::*loopback-interface* 19:07:19 demmel: looks like a bug to me. You probably want to change the walker-handler for 'application' to properly cover that case 19:07:31 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslev189.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:08:08 drewc: why the walker-handler for application and not flet? 19:08:27 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:09:20 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:29 Tordek__ [n=tordek@host185.190-137-186.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:10:01 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host42.190-137-199.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:10:23 stassats: thanks loopback-interface worked. not too worried about the open port... it's just me on private vpn :p 19:11:02 not open port, but unencrypted connection 19:11:23 demmel: because that's where the problem is of course. 19:11:33 vpn is openvpn so everything's encrypted... or should be in theory :o 19:11:58 that's why the ssh tunnel over it didn't appeal to me 19:15:13 drewc: huh? But flet is handled in the walker handler for flet. 19:15:37 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:16:22 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:16:50 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:50 demmel: if you're going to argue with me, there's not much point in asking for help ;). Let me ask you something... is there any problem with the expansion of the FLET form , or is the problem with the expansion of an operator application within a certain lexical context? 19:17:46 drewc: I don't mean to argue. I just don't understand. 19:18:12 demmel: have you looked at the source for the appliction walker-handler as i mentioned? 19:18:19 drewc: I'm not sure what the problem is, but i guess the the handler for flet doesnt add the function to the lexenv properly 19:18:51 drewc: I'm doing so right now. As am I looking at the walker handler for flet. 19:19:12 demmel: don't.. the problem, as i mentioned, is the the handler for application. 19:19:14 sigh. 19:19:29 should i mention that i am the maintainer of the library cl-walker was forked from, and use it every day? 19:19:42 *drewc* is going for some food, screw it. 19:21:27 -!- Beef [n=Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:21:39 macroexpand-all in CCL has the same issue 19:23:21 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@host34.190-226-116.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:24:01 stassats: it's actually hard to do right the 'simple' way... AFAICT, its difficult to get 'is this macro shadowed my a flet' from the lexical environment. I'm going to fix the arnesi walker after lunch to include something that will make this work. 19:24:09 drewc: You could have mentioned that. I read your first "look at application walker-handler" not as "I know its a problem there" but more like "it might be a bug there but I dont know". 19:25:05 Wombatzus` [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:02 demmel: and the second, third and fourth times? did you bother to look at the source? 19:26:26 does anyone know if cl-walker is maintained. 19:26:30 drewc: I am looking 19:27:07 Let's say I have a character stream and I'd like to read from it in a byte context (using read-byte), how would I make a new stream that had element-type be :unsigned-byte. Is this just impossible because coercing is bad? 19:27:21 herbieB: there are no bytes in a character stream 19:27:22 luis: are you here? 19:27:55 or lichtblau, come to that 19:28:04 or anyone with an opinion on Unicode surrogate code points 19:28:15 herbieB: what is it you _really_ need to do? 19:28:17 drewc: Hm, that's what I was afraid of. Ah well, I'll figure out another way 19:28:19 hey, what's up? 19:28:47 drewc: I have a stream created from sb-bsd-scokates:socket-make-stream that I want to write character info out to and I'll be getting binary data back. 19:28:53 I am currently colonizing the Unicode bit of SBCL, since that's an easy way to get my commit stats up 19:29:03 drewc: But sb-sockets won't let me have two streams off one socket. 19:29:05 *luis* is certainly not an Unicode expert, he only plays one one some mailing lists. 19:29:05 heh 19:29:19 I recall a discussion about surrogate code points as characters 19:29:31 herbieB: use a binary stream, and babel:octets->string or similar 19:29:45 Unicode and CCL disallow them, I believe, but I seem to remember you being a bit unhappy about that 19:29:49 drewc: I think I see where the problem is. I don't understand why its implemented this way though. 19:29:55 drewc: Yeah, that's basically the other thing I will be trying. Coercion of stream was my first thought though. 19:30:14 herbieB: yeah, but doesn't make much sense when you think about it :) 19:30:32 drewc: Well yeah, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work :P 19:30:35 S1100100` [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 19:30:40 davazp` [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:48 drewc / herbieB: alternatively, use a bivalent stream 19:30:49 Wombatzu` [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:52 Krystof: I remember that discussion as well. 19:31:10 -!- S1100100` is now known as S11001001` 19:31:22 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 19:31:26 good. Now, what is the actual point? How much will luis howl in pain if I disallow surrogates in sbcl, and is that counterbalanced by lichtblau's glowing with pleasure? 19:31:29 Krystof: right. Well, we kind of need them to implement UTF-8B, that was my main concern, I guess. 19:31:33 -!- rouslan_ [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:31:36 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:31:43 -!- S11001001` is now known as S11001001 19:31:55 Krystof: in my experience, which i admit is limited to the hell that is the araneida source, bivalent streams are a PITA :) 19:32:00 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 19:32:15 Krystof: Ooooo 19:32:31 -!- francogrex [n=franco@87.65.58.88] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:32:34 Krystof: When it said "element-type of :default" I thought it meant that that would be the default :P 19:32:41 That works wonderfully. 19:33:27 herbieB: and of course there is always flexi-streams as well 19:33:29 peddie [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:47 drewc: You say doing the right thing is difficult there. What I do in a simple walker I wrote is: Call macroexpand-1 to determin if a form is a macro-call or not. My walker is certainly much simpler than cl-walker/arnesi walker so i might be missing something. 19:33:58 drewc: really? Well, that's impressive, because surely araneida predates sbcl's bivalent streams by about 5 years 19:34:16 Krystof: I was trying to find the thread on openmcl-devel, but there's no trace of it. 19:34:21 crypto__ [n=z0d@artifact.hu] has joined #lisp 19:34:24 In my own archives, either. 19:34:31 neat 19:34:41 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [""mv readme.txt readordie.txt ^_^" -- zordan"] 19:35:06 Krystof: indeed.. it does.... there is/was a version of araneida that simply changed to bivalent stream in order to attempt to support file uploads. 19:35:47 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:03 The thread is here: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.babel.devel/15 19:37:16 Krystof: i had an application that attempted to actually make this work... it runs on mod-lisp now. This s likely more of a comment on araneida then bivalent streams. 19:37:56 I figured out the cause of SBCL nested error "ldb crash" I was getting with Hunchentoot. DEFINE-EASY-HANDLER defines a function and I was defining functions of the same name. Instead of just breaking the page, when one of these pages are visited the server seems to produce many nested errors and SBCL drops to ldb. 19:38:22 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:38:35 drewc: And do you know the rationale behind calling the macro function manually, as opposed to calling macroexpand-1? (They seem to use macroexpand-1 for expanding symbol macros) 19:39:17 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@200.25.197.105] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:40:03 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:40:06 *lichtblau* doesn't have much to add to the previous discussion 19:40:47 drewc: So the Arnesi walker is probably better maintained than cl-walker then? Or is someone still maintaining cl-walker? 19:41:02 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 19:41:53 (on the project page it says the author of cl-dwim team is looking after cl-walker) 19:41:54 demmel: i'm not sure. I maintain the arnesi walker, cl-walker is probably maintained by attilla. 19:42:12 which is better maintained is probably a matter of opinion. 19:42:26 ... except that for me, disallowing surrogates would seem like a very SBCL-ish thing to do, and it feels kind of surprising that OpenMCL got there first 19:42:29 *drewc* is going to brunch now 19:42:36 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:42:38 -!- Wombatzus` [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:42:39 it is an sbclish thing to do 19:42:39 I have a macro emitting a DEFVAR form in a non-toplevel context and then referring to the defined variable in the rest of the emitted code; how do I make SBCL shut up about undefined variables? 19:42:47 -!- davazp` is now known as davazp 19:42:48 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:42:49 I blame years of Actually Having a Job 19:42:58 guille_ [n=user@209.Red-81-36-242.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:02 hello 19:43:05 mathrick: adding a (declare (ignorable )) 19:43:11 and is what I do legal / well-defined anyway? 19:43:22 pjb: that makes it shut up about *undefined* variables? 19:43:25 mathrick: sorry. I misunderstood. 19:43:28 drewc: I'll write to the cl-walker mailing list. Thanks for your insight. 19:43:28 ok 19:43:41 (also, years of lichtblau Actually Having a Job; I gave you commit access so I could blame you later!) 19:43:43 mathrick: adding a (declare (special )) should help. 19:44:07 pjb: that's what I tried, but then it breaks the references to the variable later on 19:44:08 well, what is the advantage? And is that more important than being able to implement stuff like UTF-8B? (which might not be very important, though it seems to me that many applications just ignore the issue solved by UTF-8B) 19:44:31 luis: the immediate advantage is conformance with the Unicode standard 19:44:32 hmm, no, that's not it 19:44:35 I broke something else 19:44:38 drewc: My insight aided by your help is what i mean. Sorry for the English. 19:44:38 mathrick: why don't you defvar in a toplevel scope? 19:44:46 bighouse [n=bighouse@x-132-204-252-226.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 19:44:48 (which has the knock-on advantage that we can say "we purport to conform to Unicode") 19:44:53 -!- vsync_ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:44:59 pjb: because the macro is designed to be called inside defuns 19:45:05 -!- xvx [n=user01@189.139.218.85] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:45:15 mathrick: perhaps (declaim (special )) would help for outer scopes. 19:45:23 vsync_ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 19:45:25 Krystof: I'm not convinced the Unicode says you can't represent those code points. 19:45:30 -!- peddie_ [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:45:33 clhs proclaim 19:45:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_procla.htm 19:45:45 pjb: I think I should go with the declare stuff like I did, and find out what it is I *actually* broke instead of guessing :) 19:45:47 the Unicode spec says "implementations will not produce abstract characters for code points in the surrogate range" 19:45:49 declaim expands to a proclaim. 19:46:03 well, not verbatim; I've had one too many Duvels to get it exactly right 19:46:05 mathrick: you will probably need to put both a declare and declaim/proclaim. 19:46:09 In this reenactment, Krystof will play the part of Gary Byers, and luis will play himself. 19:46:20 (there's a good chance that SBCL might soon enter into that job, so all hope is not lost regarding those commits) 19:46:21 pjb: that's hard to do with a gensym'd variable 19:46:43 Krystof: got some sort of reference? 19:46:43 sellout: heh. 19:46:47 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:47:01 mathrick: then you can refer it from outside scopes. Just declare should be enough. 19:47:19 luis: page 70 of Unicode 5.1, I think 19:47:27 why special then? 19:47:28 point C1 19:47:38 "A process shall not interpret a high-surrogate code point or a low-surrogate code point as an abstract character." 19:47:57 pjb: oh, but I'm not referring to it from outside scopes 19:47:58 sec 19:48:02 demmel: using macroexpand-1 doesn't quite work unless you are passing &env. 19:48:10 luis: under "Conformance Requirements" 19:48:11 Krystof: isn't that a separate issue? encoding/decoding. 19:48:40 demmel: macroexpand will expand a macro call that is shadowed by an flet if that macro is global and you are not passing the right &env 19:48:48 I'm not sure I see any separate issues 19:49:15 Ringo47 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:20 Can't you just email the Unicode committee for clarification or something? 19:49:47 Krystof: I think one should be able to represent a surrogate code point using CL characters, but trying to encode that as, e.g., UTF-8 would result in an error or replacement character. 19:50:03 drewc: oh, so you are not actually picking up the environment in a form compatible to the lisp implementations lexenvs? 19:50:39 mathrick pasted "non-toplevel DEFVAR & warnings" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84688 19:50:40 luis: I think you might be in a minority of one. :-) 19:50:56 pjb: ^ 19:51:02 Krystof: I agree with luis, and so do most implementations. 19:51:30 foom: that I know of, only CLISP does what I just described. 19:51:38 I've not seen another implementation of Unicode that forbids the representation of codepoints in the surrogate range. 19:51:44 mathrick: you most likely don't want to execute defvar inside a function. 19:51:58 not speaking of Lisps here, even.. 19:52:08 foom: Python for example will happily produce invalid UTF-8 though. 19:52:10 demmel: no, the walker uses it's own lexical environment (See make-walk-env) which is created from investigating that of the compiler. 19:52:13 its 19:52:15 luis: I believe they just changed that 19:52:20 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:52:29 foom: cool. 19:52:38 I'm afraid that makes no sense to me: the utility of characters is that they're not just encodable but also transformable, casequeriable, lookupable in a database 19:52:40 pjb annotated #84688 "no warn" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84688#1 19:52:48 pkhuong: but I need to be able to refer to it on multiple runs. It's only defvar'd the first time FOO runs, and then reused. How should I express that? 19:53:08 (in the utf-8 codec -- you can still store high/low surrogates in a unicode string; I know of no proposal to change that) 19:53:12 pjb: yeah, that's what I did 19:53:23 Krystof: yeah, and you can do all those things with surrogate codepoints 19:53:23 angerman_ [n=angerman@host230.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:54:14 they're not *actually* magic untouchable things after all. :) 19:54:37 sure, let's do it with codepoints 19:54:57 mathrick: you could use a closure. 19:54:58 but let's only stick valid characters in strings 19:55:10 mathrick: load-time-value, I would guess. (let ((foo (l-t-v (list nil)))) (if (car foo) (cdr foo) (setf (car foo) t (cdr foo) [magic]))). 19:55:36 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [] 19:55:53 mathrick: but it's ok to use a special variable for that I'd guess. 19:56:01 drewc: which means you have the compilers lexical environment. Can you not pass that to macroexpand-1, or is this yet another type of lexenv? 19:56:08 For those who do web sites in CL (through weblocks or something similar), do you use an ORM with that, or do you use just straight sql? 19:56:22 pjb: it seems to me that way too 19:56:28 * making this thread-safe is left as an exercise in CAS to the reader. 19:57:01 TDT: weblocks has special datastore API (though you need to use store-specific operations for many things) 19:57:54 I just can't get excited by putting in runtime checks to forbid surrogates. It seems entirely a waste of time and also disallows using them for useful internal purposes while at it. 19:58:02 Krystof: ISTR finding some language that backed my position. (Possibly through wishful interpretation on my part. :-)) Let me try and find that again. 19:58:09 p_l: Ah, hmm, I didn't notice one from the documentation, but then again I didn't spend a whole lot of time with it. I'll have to check that out, I'd like to get it working with postgresql. 19:58:19 (waste of CPU time that is, not just programmer time) 19:58:21 hrk [n=hrk@acurwa003243.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:58:22 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 19:58:29 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:59:12 foom: I am not an expert, so I have to be guided by those who claim to be 19:59:18 Krystof: so, what's an 'invalid character'? 19:59:21 foom: absent strong reasoning to the contrary 19:59:47 Krystof: and I'm guided by practical considerations like: what does other software do 20:00:06 foom: what, segfault and have security issues? 20:00:11 come on 20:00:31 Krystof: I do not know of software that intentionally segfaults and has security issues 20:00:34 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.233.240] has quit [Success] 20:00:44 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:00:51 sbcl intentionally segfaults all the time 20:00:58 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 20:01:14 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host230.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:01:14 Fine. F.S.V.O. Segfault. :P 20:01:52 much software segfaults and has security issues because of an absence of humility in the front of expertise 20:01:58 Krystof: I don't think the Unicode standard has invalid characters. 20:02:03 (like that man page which says "do not use this function" :-) 20:02:26 luis: wait, what? 20:02:48 karvus [n=thomas@ti511110a080-1456.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 20:03:21 oh, "only valid characters". "Only abstract characters" if you prefer 20:03:34 -!- Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:03:43 clearly the spec does not purport to require that you only allow the use of abstract characters. 20:03:52 as the rest of that section makes clear. :) 20:04:01 angerman [n=angerman@host230.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 20:04:19 Krystof: ok, are you going to disallow all the code points that are unassigned to abstract characters? 20:04:40 I'll grant that it's somewhat unclear whether they intend to forbid the presence of a surrogate codepoint within a string inside your program. 20:05:50 sellout [n=greg@c-71-233-149-126.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:25 (you could argue that surrogate code points are different because they are permanently unassigned) 20:06:25 luis: apart from the private use sections? Don't tempt me :-) 20:06:44 I was thinking of the private use sections, yeah. 20:06:48 that would be a very bad idea, because it ruins interoperability with newer versions of the standard 20:07:02 Krystof: see D12 20:07:08 isn't Unicode guaranteeing backwards-compatibility 20:07:33 I believe a "coded character sequence" is what's colloquially referred to as a string 20:08:30 foom: yeah, and doesn't D12 agree with me? 20:08:46 Aren't we mixing UTF-8 (a particular byte-encoding) and Unicode (abstract codepoints) in this discussion? 20:08:50 "their removal by a conformant process does not constitute modification of interpretation of the coded character sequence" 20:08:54 antoszka: no 20:09:02 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 20:09:25 Krystof: In what way should unicode be backwards compatible (and with what) then? 20:09:32 Krystof: it says that you're permitted to include non and reserved 20:09:38 francogrex [n=franco@87.65.58.88] has joined #lisp 20:10:12 Krystof: if a process forbids codepoints it doesn't know about, then when a newer program which has such characters in its database attempts to talk to you, you will incorrectly reject the input. 20:10:58 antoszka: unicode characters are not removed or reassigned in later versions of the standard 20:11:11 Krystof: Ah, in that way. Yeah. 20:11:18 -!- angerman_ [n=angerman@host230.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:11:21 foom: not at all. I will correctly reject the input, because I don't know how to handle those characters 20:11:51 Hi I have a list of 120000 strings lss like ("tedef-1" "rfedt" "mpo-olgd" "tedef-1" .... etc that contains duplicate entries 20:12:05 Krystof: My claim is that a programming environment which does that is less useful than one which does not. 20:12:06 Krystof: section 15.8 says "Applications are free to use any of these noncharacter code points internally but should 20:12:06 never attempt to exchange them. 20:12:14 using (remove-duplicates lss :test #'equal) is quite inefficient and very slow 20:12:25 Krystof: considering that most uses of characters does not require doing anything with them other that storing and forwarding 20:12:33 is there a better way that you can advise? 20:13:42 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-71-233-149-126.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:14:02 francogrex: you could try a hash-table-based approach 20:14:52 doesn't remove-duplicates use hash-tables in sbcl? 20:14:56 but can I still use the "remove-duplicates" function? 20:15:23 stassats: can't in the general case. 20:15:26 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host230.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 20:15:27 stassats: if it does then it's better than hash tables that i need 20:15:41 clhs delete-duplicates 20:15:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_dup.htm 20:15:42 angerman [n=angerman@host230.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 20:15:47 also 20:15:56 Krystof: sorry, in the latest version that is in section 16.7. 20:16:10 *Krystof* drums his fingers 20:16:23 maybe the answer is to actually implement our external formats properly, then 20:16:45 "In effect, noncharacters can be thought of as application-internal private-use code points." 20:17:42 surrogates are not noncharacters, but they're fairly similar. 20:17:54 stassats: but then if hash-tables are supposed to be top speed why is not so fast? is it because I use it on a list? 20:17:55 OK, I'll try it your way first. See if dealing with external formats makes lichtblau happy 20:18:16 I still find it a little weird that the support for surrogate code points is requested here with the specific intention of using invalid sequences of surrogates. 20:18:35 *Krystof* is unhappy with his emacs23 compile 20:18:37 Yet conversely, the resulting issue would be due to the fact that once surrogates are permitted, user programs will encounter *valid* sequenes of surrogates, too. And why use a > 16 bit character representation in the first place when programs will have to expect unassembled codepoints in their strings anyway? 20:19:21 lichtblau: in what sense would they ever be valid? 20:20:04 francogrex: not so fast? what is fast then? 20:20:35 the problem here is I think that 'exchange' is tricky 20:20:37 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-66.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:20:47 if you think of exchange as external-format only, then sbcl can do what it likes with surrogates 20:20:59 if you think of exchange as sending strings to userland lisp programs, on the other hand... 20:21:05 I see your point. 20:21:12 ... then having surrogates in strings makes the authors of those programs miserable 20:21:29 hey, I should be asleep 20:21:57 I think my only counterpoint is the usefulness of UTF-8B, which BTW was proposed by a Unicode expert. 20:22:18 Krystof: would a string canonicalising function in sb-ext help these authors? 20:22:34 luis: unicode _and_ security expert 20:22:45 stassats: when I use (remove-duplicates lss :test #'equal) on that list (that btw I read from a csv file) it took 10 minutes! 20:22:50 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 20:23:14 luis: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ieee02-optical.pdf # read this paper 20:23:36 pkhuong: I have plans to implement some useful functionality, starting with the bits that I understand 20:23:45 e.g. normalization forms of valid strings... 20:23:49 francogrex: so, something makes you think it could be faster? 20:24:57 stassats: well a pivote table in excel removes duplicates in less than a second 20:25:32 Krystof: impressive. 20:25:41 francogrex: have you tried delete-duplicates? 20:25:47 dysinger [n=dysinger@gprsinternet03.porta.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:40 what is the best way to PROCLAIM things for the purpose of compiling things and dumping an image, but without affecting the resulting image's environment? 20:26:41 stassats: not yet, I will then. But does the fact that I'm using it on a *list* of strings slow it down? should I use another? 20:27:18 the reason I'm using it on a list is that the read-csv functions I have read from a csv file directly into a list 20:28:15 uh. 75  per person for a finger food buffet? Am I alone in finding that kind of expensive? 20:28:58 mathrick: loading fasls into clear image? 20:29:21 Heh, unicode 5.1 has dominoes. Yay? 20:29:24 francogrex: you could try using it on a list of symbols instead 20:29:31 luis: and mah-jongg tiles! 20:30:00 that spelling of Mahjong is not Unicode-compliant 20:30:42 can't trust those internationalization guys with orthography 20:30:42 stassats: ideally I'd want to make sure the image has everything recompiled with (optimize (speed 3)), then dump it, and in the resulting image it'd revert to the default 20:30:56 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:09 stassats: am I doomed to just saying (proclaim '(optimize (speed 1))) right before the image dump? 20:31:29 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:39 ok, I'm trying delete-duplicates, 2min48sec thru and still running! weird. 20:32:40 compile everything, exit image, load fasls? 20:32:57 serichsen: where ? 20:33:11 ok in 3min24sec it was done 20:33:33 well better than 10min but still... 20:33:39 fe[nl]ix: eclm 20:33:46 What are you trying to compute francogrex? 20:34:20 awesome. 5.2 will have Egyptian Heiroglyphs 20:36:00 francogrex: you can instead of removing duplicates just not collecting them 20:36:21 stassats: that complicates it a bit, but I guess not so much, I have a bash wrapper around it already anyway 20:36:31 Krystof: Ægyptologist mafia at work :D 20:37:01 http://std.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC2/wg2/docs/n3237.pdf 20:37:03 nice 20:37:59 -!- guille_ [n=user@209.Red-81-36-242.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:38:10 stassats: you mean using (delete-duplicates lss :test #'equal) without (setf xxx (delete-duplicates lscomp :test #'equal))? 20:38:25 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:38:55 no 20:39:05 sorry it was (setf xxx (delete-duplicates lss:test #'equal)) 20:39:09 you get your list from somewhere 20:39:23 so don't collect into it duplicates in the first place 20:39:36 from a csv file using read-csv functions 20:39:46 ah I see 20:42:26 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-90-175-82.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:43:27 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:43:30 -!- cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:43:46 mjf [n=mjf@r2r126.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 20:43:46 Krystof: Random thought on the matter: The system should be such that it is unlikely-or-impossible for a lisp program, talking with another lisp program, to find it has to deal with a character represented as two surrogate codepoints in CL:CHARACTERs. 20:44:54 Obviously, prohibiting surrogates satisfies this. 20:45:18 Permitting only low surrogates (as used by utf-8b) would also do so. 20:45:44 (The above is *not* an endorsement of permitting surrogates as CL:CHARACTERs.) 20:47:30 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 20:48:10 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068157113.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:48:16 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:48:55 -!- froog [n=user@90-224-38-87-no94.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:49:53 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:57 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:17 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:52:53 stassats: fyi and for others, when I coerced the list into a vector, it took 0.2 sec to delete-duplicates 20:53:05 it indeed works better on vectors 20:53:23 i thought I'd try that 20:53:43 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:53:49 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:55:44 kpreid: if surrogates are allowed it wouldn't be for representing characters. 20:57:27 Hmm, that didn't come out right. 20:57:42 it's weird that there is so much difference between lists and vectors in terms of speed 20:57:55 let me turn that into a question. Why would an application have to deal with pairs of surrogates? 20:58:41 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:59:54 not being able to represent noncharacters or surrogates in Lisp strings would have the advantage that any Lisp string would be encodable into UTF-* without errors. 21:02:55 -!- TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:03:10 by the way, does anyone have a function/program to read from a csv file directly into a vector? because that seems way more efficient. 21:03:13 if the lisp system permits low and high codepoints (say permits U+0000..U+FFFF contiguous) then lisp program A might generate a STRING which is erroneously "utf-16 encoded" which program B then has to deal with (because the author of A didn't test it on non-BMP or doesn't know what's right). my suggestion was that the system should be designed so it's reasonably hard to get this wrong. 21:03:21 a lisp application which operates on Unicode strings needs to know how those strings are represented by any lisp program that can pass strings to it 21:03:31 -!- demmel [n=demmel@e209.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 21:03:54 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:04:12 kpreid: U+0000..U+10FFFF contiguous I assume you mean 21:04:27 well, yes, and the implementation choices should discourage having a wide variety of such representations :-) 21:04:33 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:40 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 21:04:48 (a wide variety of indistinguishable-until-you-get-to-high-codepoints representations, I mean) 21:04:58 I'm swinging back to being anal about surrogates 21:05:08 foom: sure, what I really meant was 'not excluding any surrogate codepoints' 21:05:33 surrogates in a 4-byte representation don't represent other characters 21:05:42 they're just meaningless codepoints. 21:05:43 we should consult with Markus Kuhn :-) 21:06:01 so there's no issue with applications being forced to try to deal with them or somesuch 21:06:40 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit ["back in a bit"] 21:06:48 you could just make sbcl use a utf-16 string representation, like Java and ICU. 21:07:09 ...and everything on windows and OSX. 21:07:21 Heh, let's not go there. 21:07:47 foom: and have all of them use different pairs for actual representation 21:07:54 maybe osx uses utf-16 internally but all of the places it's mattered it's utf-8 21:08:12 (and occasionally MacRoman, blargh) 21:08:15 kpreid: in memory, unicode strings are two-byte. 21:08:30 in what? the kernel? cocoa apps? ...? 21:08:36 cocoa apps 21:08:37 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for apps. 21:08:47 does NSString expose surrogates to its clients? 21:08:50 yes 21:08:57 huh. I'll have to keep that in mind 21:09:02 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:09:12 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:43 the funny thing is, exposing surrogates really isn't a problem. 21:09:59 since you have combining chars, you mean? 21:10:06 yes 21:10:13 it isn't really a problem, but then UTF-8 isn't really a problem either, right? 21:10:30 lichtblau: yup. 21:10:44 I'm all for a programming language which stores strings as UTF-8 21:10:47 *lichtblau* still thinks UTF-8 is the best internal representation for strings anyway :-p 21:11:24 certainly either utf-8 or utf-16 are fine. utf-16 is advantageous if you expect to run in non-ascii locales often, since it's smaller. 21:12:49 people get all bent out of shape because length(string) can be "wrong" for unicode strings, but that's very nearly a worthless operation in any case. 21:14:10 You need all of: length in string-units (utf8,16,whatever), codepoints, graphemes, and rendered-width-in-pixels 21:16:23 metawilm [n=willem@g225064056.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:19:39 foom: well, the question is: what units should CL:LENGTH return? (taking portability into consideration) 21:19:53 if codepoints is the answers, then UTF-32 is probably the best representation 21:19:57 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-102-51.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 21:20:17 s/return/use 21:21:59 certainly either utf-8 or utf-16 are fine. utf-16 is advantageous if you expect to run in non-ascii locales often, since it's smaller. <-- it's not 21:22:17 not significantly so, anyway 21:22:29 mathrick: it's not 2/3rds the size? 21:22:44 no, for !ascii such as pl_PL.UTF-8 21:22:58 oh, sure. 21:23:05 it's only smaller if you go to higher codepoints, which require three bytes, like Japanese 21:23:19 but even then you can hit UTF-16 surogates and lose instantly 21:23:28 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2FFD9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:28 you also don't have the speed advantage of UCS-2 anymore 21:23:29 Sorry, I meant non-latin, rather than non-ascii. 21:23:42 so it's either UCS-32 or UTF-8 21:23:47 ehhhhh 21:24:01 everybody who implements UCS-2 implements it with length() == length_in_string_units 21:24:03 er 21:24:20 rather let me say, everybody who uses utf-16 as their string representation implements... 21:30:26 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r2r126.net.upc.cz] has quit ["GNU is *indeed* No UNIX!"] 21:33:45 I WISH ASDF'S MODEL OF "FORCE RECOMPILE" DIDN'T CONSIST OF "COMPILE EVERYTHING DOWN TO SBCL SOURCES AND THEN BURN AND CRASH BECAUSE YOU CAN'T TOUCH FASLS UNDER /usr/lib" 21:33:48 *sigh* 21:34:11 I like ASDF breakage model almost as much as I like bash's, which I just finished fighting with 21:34:34 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 21:34:43 well, so write a patch 21:35:29 or use asdf-binary-locations 21:35:52 IMO, the model ought to be: for the module specified with :force t, establish a dynamic context where all components of it are considered to be in need of the specified operation 21:35:55 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:01 S11001001: I'd prefer it to be smart enough not to touch SBCL 21:36:18 well, that's too specific 21:36:28 kpreid: I tried hacking ASDF once, and came out badly scarred 21:36:54 if I compile-op FOO :force t I don't necessarily want all of its non-SBCL deps recompiled too. 21:36:57 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 21:37:06 TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has joined #lisp 21:37:26 -!- hrk [n=hrk@acurwa003243.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Riece/5.0.0 Emacs/22.3 (darwin)"] 21:37:49 kpreid: I know, there are two different meanings of force and they should be separated 21:37:53 caliostro [n=chatzill@dynamic-adsl-94-38-70-151.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 21:37:59 in this case, I want to recompile everything but SBCL 21:38:12 but usually I want to force the named system only 21:38:13 oh, well, that's a job for map :-) 21:38:16 Hello all ... I'm continuing to run into many memory faults with SBCL on a new system, particularly when connecting with Slime. 21:38:23 kpreid: map 21:38:24 ? 21:39:08 enn: what is your new system? 21:39:08 (map nil (lambda (system) (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op my-system)) (find-all-systems)) 21:39:10 -!- prip [n=_prip@host91-125-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:39:25 stassats: Linux x86. 21:39:33 I have a program which does this for me whenever I install a new sbcl or whatever 21:39:34 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:40 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2E1C9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:40:18 kpreid: ah, that's true 21:42:03 in fact, in file-related operations 'delete build products and rebuild' seems quite effective and well-defined 21:42:10 load-op is messier 21:42:20 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:43:43 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:44:14 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 21:44:21 -!- Tordek__ is now known as Tordek 21:44:49 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:46:30 rpg [n=rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has joined #lisp 21:48:11 -!- francogrex [n=franco@87.65.58.88] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:48:11 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit ["leaving"] 21:48:19 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:24 froog [n=user@90-224-38-87-no94.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 21:49:25 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:55:37 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.153.167] has joined #lisp 21:56:14 -!- ment [i=thement@ibawizard.net] has left #lisp 21:56:21 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:57:22 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.153.167] has quit [Client Quit] 21:57:34 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.153.167] has joined #lisp 22:00:29 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:00:49 -!- metawilm [n=willem@g225064056.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 22:01:14 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177074145.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:10 prip [n=_prip@host91-125-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 22:04:06 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:06:23 -!- kmels is now known as kmels-zZ 22:08:41 -!- milanj [n=milan@91.150.120.244] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:09:29 interesting, U+FFFF, for instance, was defined as a noncharacter precisely so it could be used without fear of colliding with a real character. 22:10:36 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-24-191.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:10:38 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:10:48 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-093-113.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:55 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 22:13:13 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:52 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@gprsinternet03.porta.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:21:15 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:27 moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 22:22:41 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590e84ec.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:23:53 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177074145.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:23:58 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177074145.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:44 hi lisp 22:25:09 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:25:11 hi moocow 22:25:59 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:28:45 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 22:28:45 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:29:04 malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:30:00 what is best implementation for common lisp? 22:30:17 caliostro: depends what you're looking for. 22:30:32 caliostro: there is no 'best', only different degrees of 'goodness' 22:30:33 depends on your definition of best 22:30:33 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 22:30:41 caliostro: what do you want to do with it? 22:30:55 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:31:17 nothing, i hust want to learn lisp and rewrite some web application originally written in java 22:31:34 may be using apache and mod_lisp or something like that 22:31:35 that's not nothing, that's "run a web application" 22:32:13 mod_lisp is out of fashion 22:32:16 caliostro: important questions that narrow down your search are what platform you wish to run your lisp on, and whether you want free/open-source or commercial 22:32:42 strictly free/open source 22:32:59 well, both sbcl and ccl have commercial support 22:33:03 surely be a unix like platform 22:33:24 caliostro: ok, so off the bat, three potential names are SBCL, Clozure, and CLISP 22:33:40 Are you running on linux or windows? 22:33:53 windows doesn't smell like a unix-like 22:34:39 caliostro: sbcl is the most popular cl around here. 22:34:46 but clozure is also nice. 22:34:56 Fade: how come? 22:35:03 ok, thank you 22:35:14 caliostro: I recommend trying out a few 22:35:24 it's not hard to install any of the three that I mentioned 22:35:37 stassats: how come what? 22:35:40 many package managers for various *NIX distros also have versions of them 22:36:26 Fade: that sbcl is most popular here 22:36:42 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:36:45 I don't know what the sociological reasons are. I'm just reporting the fact. 22:36:50 stassats: it definitely seems to be the case. 22:37:03 no, i mean how do you know it's a fact? 22:37:17 i'm pretty comfortable with that assertion. 22:37:35 if you're asking if I've actually done monitored polling, you already know the answer. :) 22:37:43 i'm inclined to it too, but i'm not really sure 22:37:54 stassats: it seems to me as though more discussion of SBCL development happens here, than discussions of CCL dev do. 22:38:02 the only place I don't use sbcl is on powerpc macintoshes. 22:38:32 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:38:36 Adlai: well, we have more sbcl developers here for sure 22:39:00 -!- caliostro [n=chatzill@dynamic-adsl-94-38-70-151.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.12/2009070611]"] 22:39:07 and there is #ccl 22:40:40 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-90300.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:41:12 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:41:21 'course, there are about 200 handles in here who never say a damn thing, so maybe sbcl is just the preference of the minority of #lisp people who actually speak. 22:41:48 i prefer both sbcl and ccl 22:42:52 I like ccl, too. 22:44:20 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:44:30 clisp is the only common, common lisp that i've had differences of oppinion /w 22:44:39 *Fade* shrugs 22:44:54 *stassats* doesn't like clisp 22:45:05 clisp does not appear to support multithreading, so can't be put in the same category 22:45:19 it does support multithreading, though 22:45:24 Modius: I heard something about latest version having some multithreading 22:46:12 that said, my very first sbcl was bootstrapped using clisp, so it's obviously good enough for certain uses. :) 22:47:52 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:50:47 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:32 demmel [n=demmel@dslb-188-098-197-247.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:08 rpg_ [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:55:49 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 22:56:36 -!- rpg [n=rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:56:40 -!- rpg_ is now known as rpg 22:59:17 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [] 23:01:10 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:03:51 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Client Quit] 23:05:03 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:05:56 drewc: are you still brunching? :) 23:07:21 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 23:10:12 -!- Wombatzus [n=wombatzu@67.124.148.26] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:10:16 demmel: heh, not at all :) 23:11:22 -!- Drakeson` [n=user@76-10-132-254.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:11:35 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:12:01 Wombatzus [n=wombatzu@adsl-67-124-148-26.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:03 drewc: One more question about the walker in arnesi: To augment the compiler environment you use sb-c::make-lexenv. Does this not create an environment that could be passed to macroexpand-1? 23:12:38 no 23:12:58 well, yes, but that's not quite what you want to do in this case. 23:14:24 demmel: the best way to solved this problem. IMO, is to keep a list of binding around when walking a form, and make sure the walker is using the rules for the innermost binding 23:14:29 to solve* 23:15:03 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:18 drewc: could you explain why you'd not want to use the environment that can be passed to macroexpand-1? 23:17:08 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:18:41 demmel: really wasteful in the common case 23:19:10 pkhuong: You mean performance wise? 23:19:33 vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 23:20:17 demmel: re-creating the entire lexical environment from a re-creation of the entire lexical environment is probably not what you want to do.. especially when there are simpler and more portable solutions. 23:20:45 -!- vsync_ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:20:47 sure, or just in terms of complexity. Even if you don't have to code the complex part, complexity inversion smells. 23:22:19 drewc: But don't you keep track of the lexenv. What would need to be recreated? Does macroexpand-1 do the "re-creation"? 23:22:49 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 23:23:51 demmel: the lexical environment used by the walker is a portable data stucture, and is only tangentally related the the lexical environments used by the compiler 23:24:06 tangentially* 23:25:38 drewc: You're referring to the one stored in the car of that cons cell. Don't you keep a implementation specific lexenv in the cdr? 23:26:14 that should be "cell?" not "cell." 23:26:33 which cons cell are you referring to here? 23:27:32 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 23:28:53 well .. a quick look at the code makes the fix even simpler then a though .. we already store the order things are encountered in out lexenv.. 23:29:20 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:29:31 drewc: like the one returned from make-walk-env in arseni 23:31:26 *arnesi 23:31:51 *stassats* supposedly got a fix for the similar issue in CCL 23:32:32 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:31 virl [n=virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 23:34:50 dysinger [n=dysinger@gprsinternet03.porta.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:16 demmel: it's true that make-walk-env can copy an implementations lexical environment .. but make-walk-env is called before the walker begins... so the environment you capture is not going to have all the local definitions that the walker can pick up... a walker is not executing/compiling or doing anything besides reading a form and walking it... so where do you plan to get the environment to pass to macroexpand-1? 23:35:20 hi there. how do I need to change this so that it works? (find "foo" (list (list :name "foo" 1 2 ) (list :name "moo" 3 4) :test #'string-equal :key ':name )) 23:36:12 :key is a function 23:36:36 virl: :key #'second 23:38:24 demmel: the fix for this is simply to search for the lexical function or macro binding of the symbol in order through the walkers lexenv, rather then the simple check it does now. 23:38:35 :key (lambda (plist) (getf plist :name)) 23:38:38 drewc: If I understand correctly, the environments you pass down the recursive calls when walking a code consist of one cons cell. In the car you store the implementation independent portable walk environment and in the cdr you store the implementation specific environment. 23:38:53 drewc: which also gets updated in extend-walk-env. 23:39:38 drewc: or more specificaly in register-walk-env 23:40:11 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229238131.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 23:41:32 demmel pasted "how arnesi handles symbol macros" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84706 23:42:04 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:43:01 drewc: when checking for symbol macros arnesi allready does what i propose for macros. How is it different. (Sorry for being so stubborn, I just don't see it yet) 23:46:12 demmel: can you point out where we do that, and where it requires (and passes) the lexenv? That is to say, are you sure there will always be a lexenv to use? 23:46:24 oh .. you did 23:46:25 :) 23:46:56 nope.. those are not symbol macros... that's for defmacros 23:47:38 demmel pasted "arnesi registers additions to the lexenv in both portable and implementation specific way" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84708 23:47:49 demmel annotated #84708 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84708#1 23:49:09 demmel: in your original paste, you never pass a lexical environment to macroexpand-all .. this is why i keep telling you you are going about it wrong. 23:49:23 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1D913.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:49:45 which one? the one from 3 hours ago? 23:49:50 yes 23:50:27 the "how arnesi handles symbol macro" one I admit doesnt process symbol macros. I was wrong. 23:50:31 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:51:17 no, again that's for defmacro macros, and the environment can of course be nil ... defmacro's are in the toplevel env, so macroexpand works fine. 23:52:48 drewc: is that referring to my last or second to last paste? 23:53:42 merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:52 _3b` [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:54:03 -!- merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:54:14 merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:37 drewc: my original paste: http://paste.lisp.org/display/84685 . There I should not need to pass anything to macroexpand all for it to work correctly. Otherwise you will have to explain. 23:55:13 jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 23:55:23 demmel annotated #84706 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84706#1 23:55:41 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@gprsinternet03.porta.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:57:32 -!- kmels-zZ is now known as kmels 23:57:53 demmel: what is the second argument to macroexpand-all? 23:58:32 an optional lexical environment. But in this case i want to start with the null-lexical-environment. 23:59:13 the walker will pick up the defintions of foo in the macrolet and in the flet