00:01:03 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-120.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:01:26 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 00:06:49 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@24.21.76.57] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:13:45 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-68-245.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:15:15 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 00:15:56 -!- kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["home!"] 00:15:57 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:16:12 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:22 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:24:20 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:25:02 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:25:48 bytbox [n=sclawren@silverchips.mbhs.edu] has joined #lisp 00:28:09 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590e8eb5.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:30:16 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["bye bye for now"] 00:32:11 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-35-185.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:44:04 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 00:45:13 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-76-115-73-70.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:14 leo2007: cos/sin of > +/-2^63 loses on SBCL/x86. Known bug, should be fixed "soon". 00:56:01 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:29 -!- masm1 [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:58:46 -!- setheus [n=setheus@pool-173-74-124-37.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:59:02 setheus [n=setheus@pool-173-74-124-37.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:36 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:00:48 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:03:26 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:05:06 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 01:05:50 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 01:08:06 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-aguiddlrviqnrzav] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:26:47 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:27:34 Thanks ... the backtrace was the killer for slime and that masked the real problem which was coming from erlang. 01:27:41 -!- brianj_otter [n=brianj@wsip-24-234-246-213.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [] 01:27:45 c|mell [n=cmell@KD124213182069.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:28:14 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-131.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:29:14 heh 01:29:38 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 01:30:45 -!- Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 01:30:59 Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 01:35:59 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 01:38:31 -!- aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@79.31.29.41] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:40:22 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:40:58 hefner: fighting with OSS (: 01:42:29 surely you jest. 01:43:09 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-131.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:47:01 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 01:47:29 a simple-string string can hold standard characters adn well as non standard characters, is its a base-string (therefore a simple-base-string) or not based on its contents? 01:48:10 base-string or not is determinated soley by examining content? 01:49:25 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:22 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:50:55 (vector base-char size) basically a capability type 01:51:45 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-119.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:49 if i *can* hold (vector character size) does that mean its not a base-string? 01:51:53 i/it 01:56:35 it seems to be implementation dependent if base-char is different of character or not 01:57:16 but it must at least hold standard-char 01:57:26 aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host41-29-dynamic.31-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 01:58:27 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 02:00:09 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-66.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:00:26 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-66.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 02:07:34 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:09:47 dysinger [n=dysinger@gprsinternet04.porta.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:19 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:25 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 02:17:50 wakeup_vanuber [n=wakeup@koln-5d817410.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 02:19:00 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-76-115-73-70.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:20:10 WarWeasle [n=brad@98.220.168.14] has joined #lisp 02:20:30 Hello, what's the function to change a float to an integer? 02:20:50 coerce doesn't seem to work. 02:21:04 clhs truncate 02:21:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_floorc.htm 02:21:40 antifuchs: Thank you, I've been racking my brain and google for half an hour. 02:21:48 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:21:59 rounding usually works (-: 02:22:03 WarWeasle: there are a bunch, you could also use #'round, #'ceiling, etc 02:22:32 that page lists the most important ones; best to read and think about which you need 02:24:29 I was thinking about it the wrong way... of course it's a math function. 02:28:29 Good morning. 02:30:07 gugamilare [n=gugamila@201-75-224-81-am.cpe.vivax.com.br] has joined #lisp 02:30:40 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-119.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:31:12 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-119.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:04 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:35:24 -!- wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d81596d.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:36:39 chavo_ [n=user@c-76-17-212-158.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:19 phadthai: thanks.. yeah i got a ok defination of standard-char/base-char 02:38:19 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:08 but just not sure if base-string isa content test like if it contains (0 0 32 65) i guess its not a base-string 02:39:35 -!- Novie [n=kvirc@dsl-247.static.grp6.tnmmrl.infoave.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 02:39:59 -!- gh7d395pi69wd [n=asdf@unaffiliated/gh7d395pi69wd] has left #lisp 02:40:02 gh7d395pi69wd [n=asdf@unaffiliated/gh7d395pi69wd] has joined #lisp 02:40:09 i had to rejoin, for some reason i typed in #Lisp when i joined 02:40:11 was driving me insane 02:40:15 02:41:08 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-67-238.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:41:49 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:43:41 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:43:54 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:47:21 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:47:37 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:47:49 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:48:36 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:52:47 I'm getting used to using emacs/slime, and I'm having trouble with asdf: the following line works perfectly in the repl, but if I put it in a file and compile-and-load the file, it says there's no such package as 'cl-who: 02:52:48 (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op 'cl-who) 02:53:01 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:52 I'm running ccl, and have a ccl-init file that sets asdf:*central-registry* correctly, but I don't know how to make that available when loading external files (as opposed to issuing REPL commands) 02:54:17 (this is ccl on Mac os X, I should mention, any advice for a poor fool?) 02:56:32 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 02:57:51 This is a bit odd question perhaps, but I find myself wasting a lot of time doing this..if I'm testing asd file definitions, and want to re-require my library, is there a way to force the total reload of that library? Right now I tend to just quit emacs adn reload, and that's been taking a really long time for testing new stuff. 03:00:23 TDT, :force t 03:00:36 c|mell: thanks. 03:01:29 girzel, what is the exact error message -- if the error message is really "no such package as 'cl-who:" you have a typo in your program 03:02:22 TDT, with recent slime there is a slime command called force-load-system, press , in the slime repl and press tab to see the commands you can execute 03:03:28 TDT: see also M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp 03:03:51 c|mell: Yep, it's "there is no package named 'CL-WHO 03:04:11 c|mell, Ralith: Thanks for the help on that, I'll check both of these. 03:04:39 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:04:50 girzel: with a quote in front of the name? 03:04:54 girzel: you're doing it wrong :) 03:05:04 drewc: no kidding :) 03:05:38 girzel: you have an ASDF:load-op at the top of a file, and in that file you are trying to use symbols from the package loaded by that asdf system.. yes? 03:05:45 beach: no, all caps in quotes 03:06:23 drewc: I start with require asdf, then then asdf:load-op statements, then defpackage 03:06:50 sorry, asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op etc 03:06:53 girzel: right, that's not going to work. 03:07:25 should I be making an asd file with a asdf:defsystem in it instead? 03:07:29 very lost 03:07:30 girzel: the proper way to do this is to define an ASDF system that :depends-on the systems you are trying to load 03:07:32 yeah 03:07:40 but, it's important to understand why it's not working. 03:07:49 good lord but I don't understand why 03:08:25 girzel, that's not a clozure cl error message -- please post source and real error message, paste.lisp.org 03:08:52 girzel: in that file, are you doing function calls of (cl-who: ...) ? 03:09:05 or (in-package :cl-who) ? 03:10:15 Phoodus: after the asdf:load-ops I'm doing a defpackage that includes cl-who, then in-package, then using cl-who symbols directly, but it never gets past the asdf:load-ops. I think it's pretty clear that I'm just Doing The Wrong Thing 03:10:20 girzel: it has to do with the time that form is executed.. your (asdf:oos ...) forms will not be run until run-time, but you've got code it that file that requires the package at read/compile or macroexpand time 03:10:29 li_bai [n=li_bai@CPE0015e96c35fd-CM0014e8867f68.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:11:00 are you sure that error is on the asdf line, and not the (in-package ..) ? 03:11:15 the error is not on the asdf line Phoodus, of course not. 03:11:19 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@98.220.168.14] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:11:31 (in-package ..) is afaik treated specially, such that when the file is _read_, it creates the symbols that it reads inside that package 03:12:05 so, the package should exist before you load that file 03:12:25 "Everything in-package does is also performed at compile time if the call appears as a top level form" 03:12:33 (in-package :foo) (defun hello () "hello") tries to create the symbol foo:hello 03:12:40 right when it initially reads the file 03:12:51 so if package foo doesn't exist already, you get that error 03:12:57 you can't do everything just in 1 file 03:13:05 when you're talking about packages and asdf 03:13:15 Phoodus: yes, you can 03:13:19 you might be able to get away with something in a particular lisp doing it in some hackish order, but it won't be portable across lisps 03:13:23 Phoodus: it just requires an eval-when 03:13:40 or, if you need it at read-time, a #. 03:13:40 girzel pasted "stupid" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84543 03:13:41 I guess. I never bother with that 03:14:03 girzel: you have not loaded hunchentoot yet. 03:14:11 hefner: one reboot later, no sound with either alsa or oss (: 03:14:37 girzel: you either have to use eval-when to load the systems at compile time, or load the systems before trying to compile the file 03:14:51 preferably by creating an ASDF system of your own 03:14:52 step 8 of your backtrace shows that trying to define you dependencies of cl-who is failing 03:15:22 erm, of web I guess 03:15:38 girzel: read the docs for DEFPACKAGE, which is what is failing here 03:15:40 drewc: so basically the recommended solution is an asd file that loads the systems, with a :components that uses the actual file where I've got a defpackage and all that 03:15:51 clhs defpackage 03:15:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm 03:15:58 girzel: yeah, that's the best way to do it. 03:16:05 in sbcl, *posix-argv* contains a list of all the command-line arguments. how do you get the value of the nth arg? 03:16:13 girzel: for quick hacks, EVAL-WHEN is acceptable as well. 03:16:27 girzel: yep. The .asd file is mostly boilerplate once you get up and running, you can mostly copy/paste/edit a few lines once you get your initial decisions made 03:16:35 drewc: sweet, thanks to all for putting up with this. I'll learn the Hoyle method before I start messing with quick hacks :) 03:16:47 "If a defpackage form appears as a top level form, all of the actions normally performed by this macro at load time must also be performed at compile time." 03:16:48 li_bai: same way as getting the value of the nth element of any other list 03:16:55 it's been way harder making lisp work than actually using lisp... 03:17:19 girzel: that's a common experience 03:17:57 cool, thanks again 03:17:57 girzel: it just takes some understanding of the compilation and evaluation process... if you're used to interpreted languages, the different 'times' can be confusing. 03:18:47 problem is, those things can bite beginner code, not just one of those "dangerous but useful" features you can optionally use if you need it 03:18:55 drewc: or used to statically compiled languages. 03:19:00 or really, used to anything but CL :P 03:19:46 *Phoodus* read that as "stastically compiled". I think I need sleep 03:19:50 statistically 03:20:13 spastically compiled! 03:20:17 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:24:08 Ralith: ah, (nth x *posix-argv*). i know you can do (first ...), (second ...), (third ...). how far can you go like that (assuming you have enough args)? 03:24:30 clhs first 03:24:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_firstc.htm 03:24:44 (the standard goes to tenth) 03:24:52 there's *tons* of other ways, of course. 03:25:08 thanks 03:27:38 nth, elt, c(ad)r, first + friends, (loop for (car . cdr) on list repeat n finally return car) ... 03:30:21 -!- bighous1 [n=bighouse@modemcable239.238-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:30:39 -!- xinming [n=hyy@122.238.70.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:30:50 xinming [n=hyy@122.238.70.188] has joined #lisp 03:31:38 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@gprsinternet04.porta.net] has quit [Success] 03:33:51 -!- li_bai [n=li_bai@CPE0015e96c35fd-CM0014e8867f68.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 03:39:29 well li_bai has left but doug hoyte's book has an awesome(?) macro that automatically generates the function for cdddddddaaaaddddr etc. when needed 03:39:59 c|mell: awesome like amazing-if. 03:40:45 c|mell: haha, awesome 03:42:37 man, caddar and friends need to be taken out back and shot 03:44:50 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit ["Yow! Legally-imposed CULTURE-reduction is CABBAGE-BRAINED!"] 03:45:10 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:49:17 icylisper [n=icylispe@115.99.32.68] has joined #lisp 03:51:42 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 03:53:17 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:54:52 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:16 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:00:54 btw, has anyone here used parenscript for generating static javascript files? 04:01:23 slava: whyyy.... they are so cute 04:01:44 I'm an old school 'define lots of classes for everything' type of guy 04:03:13 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Client Quit] 04:04:05 slava: old school guys define structs ;) 04:04:36 I thought old school guys encoded byte offsets to base memory location? 04:04:49 pkhuong: in my C++ code I only ever use the struct keyword :) 04:05:12 p_l they program in 0s and 1s 04:05:13 sounds like a lot of my CL code.. 04:06:11 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 04:07:32 gh7d395pi69wd: still, offsets to pointer. I liked ascii arts and assembler listings of operating system structures as documentation (printed! you could basically retype the whole OS from those books, directly to memory if needed!) 04:11:41 the books were aptly named "Atari 800/65XE Memory Map series" 04:11:46 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:11 -!- nanobit [i=nwats@gw.pulsar-zone.net] has quit ["bye"] 04:13:14 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.46.116] has joined #lisp 04:14:22 I somehow believed that old school people only used cons cells :) 04:15:16 phadthai: not all cpus had direct support for cons cells. other than having 18bit pointers and 36bit registers, that is 04:15:44 my other car is a cdr? 04:15:46 argh... 04:15:55 I meant in lisp of course though heh 04:16:34 phadthai: the really old code used M-expressions and didn't ran on anything till a certain student noticed a quirk regarding EVAL 04:17:21 yay, kanji strings & symbol names now flow through properly 04:18:08 ... symbol names? Can I see examples? :D 04:18:09 interesting 04:18:16 via eval 04:18:16 reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-expression now :) 04:18:38 Phoodus:  04:18:48 my IRC encodings are all messed up 04:19:40 unfortunately I see less glyphs with xterm and dejavu mono than with gnome-terminal and bitstream vera sans mono, yet even less with xterm and bitstream vera sans mono 04:19:41 Phoodus: paste wo kudasai! Onegai shimasu! 04:20:05 heh, I don't know Japanese, nor have an IME. I just copy/paste random international characters from websites ;) 04:20:08 *p_l* somehow sees all important glyphs with urxvt and Consolas 04:20:20 so these showed up as squares for me under xterm+dejavu 04:20:35 and it flows through the various languages/sockets/machines in UTF8, and does eval & string operations properly in the lisp end 04:20:53 xterm+fixed shows more but the font is ugly 04:20:58 I saw Phoodus:  04:21:34 that was "onegai!" in hiragana, UTF8 encoded (and what Phoodus pasted showed fine here) 04:22:17 http://xs942.xs.to/xs942/09316/utf-uxx0r334.png 04:22:43 phadthai: I recommend Consolas + properly set font rendering (default looks fugly) 04:22:50 mIRC, unicode enabled, etc etc. No clue 04:22:52 l33t url sir 04:23:10 -!- ademir is now known as dalton 04:23:17 Consolas is a font? 04:23:32 Phoodus: it looks to me like it interpreted UTF-8 as latin1 04:23:36 unicode is great when it works, but most every implementation makes it suck 04:23:53 phadthai: yeah, it's the new console-related font from NT6 04:24:00 interestingly gnome-terminal with bitstream vera sans mono shows almost all glyphs though, but I find gnome-terminal quite heavy 04:24:45 phadthai: I recommend urxvt. not many terminal emulators are lighter nowadays, and compared to gnome-terminal it's near 0 in resource usage 04:24:47 Phoodus: yeah it's somewhat of a hassle, editor, screen(1), terminal, font all have to support it and be properly configured 04:24:58 well, I'm in Windows 04:25:15 which theoretically supports unicode through & through, though apps don't seem to be aware of that ;) 04:25:43 p_l: I remember trying it but there were termcap issues with it, but that was years ago before xterm even supported utf8... I might give it another try 04:25:50 plus depending on your font, glyphs get strangely remapped, too 04:26:26 Phoodus: NT development team will probably have festivities for a month the day windows programmers get a clue regarding documentation 04:26:40 at least .net forces some issues with that 04:26:42 or proper practices 04:27:02 Phoodus: That's why the big idea is dumping all native code 04:27:38 basically creating something alike AS/400 with more complex VM 04:28:36 hmm there seems to be a perl support build option for urxvt, I wonder if that'll ever serve me 04:28:41 right, except in the Windows evolution there are a number of very very heavyweight layers in the stack which really shouldn't be there on a clean room design 04:29:40 in terms of (full) bootstrap OS -> hypervisor/machine emulator -> Windows -> .Net -> apps 04:30:02 Phoodus: they didn't get a cleanroom design. As far as I delved into it, they weren't really given a chance at that ever since decision to use WinAPI 04:30:13 with low-level driver layers mashed in every layer 04:30:43 there's nothing stopping them from doing so, and exporting emulation layers for legacy stuff, rather than keeping the legacy layers as their core 04:30:49 but hey, we all know the stoyr 04:31:07 and they've done a bit of that once or twice 04:31:16 Phoodus: I heard parts concerning people "incorporated" from 9x and other groups 04:31:27 NTs beginnings were very clean-room 04:31:41 yep, they got a number of things right 04:32:03 wouldn't you rather they just stopped screwing around and admit Windows is done? 04:32:44 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 04:33:01 and what I have managed to see of internals looks rather fine - it's the userspace that sucks and lack of vision regarding development in later versions (and now we have linux distro developers going the same route...) 04:33:04 I'd rather see the customers do that personally, but for a fantasy option, sure ;) 04:33:21 p_l: and the driver layer 04:33:45 and the filesystem layout and permission model 04:34:23 permission model suffers a lot in userspace side (just like it starts to suffer in "modern" linux distros) 04:34:56 layout is getting better, especially in NT6, even though userspace tools like explorer.exe get confused 04:35:20 *p_l* really wants to smirk with glee at people who "clean" their SxS dirs 04:36:19 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:36:29 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-187-178.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:36:46 that's a fine way to break your system to a point of no return if I ever seen one. Even better, not noticeable immediately 04:36:51 p_l: so far it seems very nice with bitstream vera sans mono, will remain to configure the colors :) 04:36:57 and there's still some VERY longstanding bugs like the start menu height with multiple monitors, and Notepad's EOL characters getting munged 04:37:01 no more of the old termcap problems I've seen on it 04:37:39 SxS? 04:37:40 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:37:56 Phoodus: I don't think they touched notepad except for adding multiple encodings since *loong* time ago 04:37:56 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 04:38:03 Phoodus: and odd intermittent things like menu being closed or not being closed randomly when a menu item is deleted :) 04:38:34 and windows popping behind others when newly opened, or refusing to come to front 04:38:40 Phoodus: Side by Side. a way to avoid certain kinds of DLL hell, to ensure that you always get the proper version of the file 04:38:42 urging to open an explorer window to remove menu icons instead 04:39:55 p_l: I think they also changed from using a fixed array for lines to a reallocatable one :) 04:40:19 in notepad that is 04:40:21 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-76-17-212-158.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:40:27 Phoodus: you could say that SxS allows for package dependency management with garbage collection 04:40:53 phadthai: untrue - it's neither. It's just a giant, mmapped file 04:41:09 well, not that giant. But mmaped nevertheless 04:41:24 hmm unsure why there was such a low limit on the number of lines on windows 95 then 04:42:12 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-210-102.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:12 maybe the index was limited then 04:42:24 also, when I open a fullscreen paletted game, many of my desktop graphics go to dithered 8-bit mode and stay that way indefinitely, long after the game is gone 04:42:53 phadthai: 1) possibility of 16bit notepad 2) some artificial hard limit, like buffer[nrofchars] 04:43:07 Phoodus: I assume that's pre-NT6? 04:43:44 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 04:43:48 -!- ausente is now known as ademir 04:43:49 cause old, GDI style graphics afaik operated that way if said part of display didn;t redraw itself 04:43:51 this is under the latest XP Pro 64 04:44:14 not sure exactly what NT version that counts as 04:44:27 Phoodus: NT5.2 then, old GDI display model, aka "apps have to redraw themselves directly to video memory" 04:44:29 cmd.exe says it's 5.2 :-P 04:44:52 -!- ademir is now known as dalton 04:45:02 the big fancy skinned Windows Media Player is one of the offenders in the palette problem area 04:45:06 NT6 uses a separate display server which minimizes application redraws 04:45:09 -!- dalton [n=user7994@187.34.44.222] has quit ["EJECT"] 04:45:19 They properly remap going into 8-bit mode, but don't seem to notice when leaving 04:45:51 Phoodus: it's the apps not redrawing with proper settings after changing back 04:46:11 right, I'm just confused why they respond to one change and not the other. It'd seem like it'd be the same handler 04:46:31 NT6's dwm.exe at least in theory should support changing pallette for only one app 04:46:47 Phoodus: maybe they are only changing if the range of colors is getting smaller? 04:47:26 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:47:49 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 04:47:49 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Client Quit] 04:50:59 kenjin-che [n=kenjin@58.232.36.145] has joined #lisp 04:51:20 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:19 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:58:46 -!- kenjin-che [n=kenjin@58.232.36.145] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:01:09 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:03:18 evening 05:03:46 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:04:18 well hello. 05:04:24 morning 05:04:38 I just went and ordered me a MIPS based laptop (: 05:05:00 and lookin' at sbcl.org I can even run sbcl on it. Horray! 05:05:24 beach: around? 05:05:39 schmx: what model? 05:05:59 lemote yeeloong 8089 it says. 05:07:47 hmm... heard of it somewhere on 9fans 05:07:59 *schmx* googles 9fans 05:08:21 You're a plan9 user? 05:08:33 schmx: occasionally 05:08:42 learned a lot from it, I think 05:08:53 Cools. I have been thniking of installing it on my laptop here.. just for.. playing around. 05:09:03 I saw on reddit that there is a scheme for it too 05:09:45 schmx: just don't expect much from this scheme. I suspect that for more support you might want to try compiling chicken or similar with APE 05:09:52 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:10:04 also, first result on google makes me cringe from pep talk 05:10:18 I have no idea what to expect from plan9 at all. 05:10:19 (for lemote 8089) 05:11:03 ehehehe 05:11:27 fredlaforge [i=fredlafo@c-71-204-144-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:53 schmx: expect lots of mouse usage, no threading, various kinds of apps being absent etc ;-) 05:12:07 That be sounding a bit painful (: 05:12:36 yea, especially that mouse part 05:12:59 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:13:27 Quadrescence [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #lisp 05:13:39 weeeell .. maybe next year. 05:14:07 lol 05:14:26 schmx: try under a VM, or try running it using that kernelt-turned-executable 05:14:32 don't remember the name 05:15:51 hmmqq 05:15:56 I will google around. 05:16:32 ah, 9vx it was, I think 05:17:06 kinda like UML 05:17:09 slyrus_: Yes. 05:17:12 ah nice. 05:17:28 hey beach. it looks like only one of nikodemus' patches made it into the mcclim repo 05:17:37 Oh? 05:17:41 and the one that did had tabs in it... is that standard practice? 05:17:44 ICBW 05:18:07 slyrus_: I could remove them. Hold on... 05:18:49 *schmx* goes hunting for caffeine. 05:19:29 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.174.169] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:19:36 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.174.169] has joined #lisp 05:22:54 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:37 *drewc* goes hunting for cider 05:24:31 slyrus_: OK, that should be fixed now. And yes, there are tabs everywhere in McCLIM code. 05:24:41 ok... thanks beach! 05:25:54 -!- gugamilare [n=gugamila@201-75-224-81-am.cpe.vivax.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:27:15 slyrus_: No problem. 05:27:36 pkhuong: do you know anything about instruction scheduling to reduce lifetime ranges? 05:27:52 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-187-178.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 05:27:54 pkhuong: I'm thinking that classical scheduling on x86 is pointless but placing code to reduce register pressure should help 05:27:55 kenyao [n=kenyao@58.62.24.47] has joined #lisp 05:30:33 -!- kenyao [n=kenyao@58.62.24.47] has quit [Client Quit] 05:30:38 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:31:30 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:48 -!- fredlaforge [i=fredlafo@c-71-204-144-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 05:33:46 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:35:55 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:36:30 nanobit [i=retsiser@gw.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:01 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:52 -!- amaron_ [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:47:36 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-119.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:56:21 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-46-70.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:01:34 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 06:05:49 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-5-93.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:08:43 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:10:57 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:17:03 -!- rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-qagbgjartgtrkxvh] has quit [] 06:20:30 -!- danlei` [n=user@pD9E2F528.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:24:12 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-46-70.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:28:25 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable239.238-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 06:33:22 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.246.50] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:33:35 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 06:36:28 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:38:01 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit ["brb"] 06:38:42 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:26 hefner: That clim-lookup elisp supplied with mcclim works just perfect. Thanks :) 06:42:39 peddie [n=matthew@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:45:28 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:45:42 slackjaw [n=jolyonw@124-171-248-180.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:50:15 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:50:19 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:08 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable239.238-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:01:18 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:05:14 -!- Adlai is now known as Adlai-AWAY 07:08:42 cool. 07:08:57 Morning, fellow Lispers. 07:09:07 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-127-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:09:12 -!- peddie [n=matthew@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 07:09:13 davelambert [n=djl@79-73-148-216.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 07:09:22 peddie [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:09:54 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:10:43 morning 07:10:48 *p_l* goes for coffee 07:10:58 peddie [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:30 p_l: Here's something to make your coffee go down smoother http://www.webdesigndev.com/programming/30-most-influential-people-in-programming 07:11:57 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-13-64.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:11:59 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:12:08 heya beach 07:12:12 peddie [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:18 tic: Hey, you might have mail. 07:12:46 beach, why yes, I do! 07:12:59 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:13:55 peddie [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:14 schmx: looking at that list... I'm reminded that I've got a professor with unix beard 07:17:47 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:19:50 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-226-227.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:47 *hefner* thanks Jeff Atwood for reminding him never to try the goatee look 07:26:01 now that's influence 07:26:18 Beats the goatse look. 07:26:53 schmx: ... you just KNOW what to say to someone who is enjoying his morning coffee, right? 07:27:26 p_l: It is my raison d'etre 07:27:42 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:27:48 schmx: nothing a well placed 420MT strike can't help 07:28:16 *schmx* googles 420MT 07:28:45 (2520MT is delivered to people who replace my coffee with decaf) 07:30:33 http://www.dotnetrocks.com/dnr_photos/JeffAtwood.jpg 07:30:34 /420/480/;/2520/2880/ 07:30:47 wow, I always imagined that he looks like a smug asshole 07:30:48 and he actually does 07:31:08 schmx: think 4 120MT thermonuclear warheads 07:31:18 I don't think I have ever heard of this jeff atwood before today. 07:31:22 (and 24 warheads in second case) 07:31:23 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 07:31:28 p_l: Oh i see. 07:31:57 milanj [n=milan@79.101.249.118] has joined #lisp 07:32:00 His blog is crap :) 07:32:37 schmx: hint - 2880 MT deliverd to Earth's surface would wipe humanity and any bigger lifeform 07:32:50 I see. 07:33:00 That's not very good. 07:33:49 schmx: that's why I just love Seikai no Senki. It has planet destroyers that might actually work according to our physics :3 07:34:51 p_l: You keep saying things I need to google :) 07:34:55 hahaha 07:35:12 I find some cartoon. 07:35:20 schmx: it's actually a series of novels 07:35:51 it just happens that there's a quite good one animated version of it 07:36:24 It would be nice if all book->TV adaptation tried to fit that well with original material 07:37:58 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 07:38:02 peddie [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:38 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:38:42 peddie [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:04 *schmx* will wait for the TV adaption of PAIP. 07:39:36 Babylon 5-ish style SF (as in, much more realistic in terms of physics, machinery, politics etc.), from pov of two rather not important people (well, not important in grand scheme of things, unless they manage to survive long enough and rise in ranks) 07:39:48 amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 07:40:33 ok.. 07:40:36 and that is another book? 07:41:07 Babylon 5 or Seikai no Senki? :D 07:41:36 oh, my internet stopped lagging. I guess someone disabled whatever filesharing program they ran 07:41:53 masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has joined #lisp 07:42:07 babylon 5 ? 07:42:46 schmx: babylon 5 - probably the best long-running sf tv series ever produced in USA. 07:43:10 I see. 07:43:13 I must have missed it. 07:43:59 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:45:02 schmx: it didn't really fit the common Star Trekish theme, I guess (lots of politics, lack of one-episode storylines, instead long running story arcs, etc.). the new BGS probably looks similar, but I haven't watched past first season 07:45:27 good morning 07:45:32 nikodemus: good morning 07:45:49 Magical goblins with crap stuck to their foreheads ... 07:45:58 p_l: Well that's ok with in not fitting a star trekish theme. star trek blows (: 07:46:22 ... oh, wait. :) 07:46:38 magical.. goblins.. ? 07:46:40 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:46:51 Well, aliens. 07:47:11 Zhivago: B5 at least tried to have more interesting aliens, even if they were mostly similar to humans in movement (but not physique, even if they had two legs and two "arms" and a head) 07:47:14 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 07:48:04 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:48:21 pkhuong: thanks for the note 07:48:25 yeah, B5 glued a *lot* of stuff to their heads 07:48:54 hefner: at least they tried giving them different atmosphere, gravity and reproductory organs :P 07:49:12 Except for the elves. 07:49:27 And half-elves. 07:50:17 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:51:11 You guys do know these... beings.. aren't for real? 07:51:16 Zhivago: you mean Minbari? No one knows who really did a number on them. having a device designed for Minbari->Human and Human->Minbari change sounds like rather obvious ploy by someone before (who quite obviously wasn't looking like human) 07:51:56 schmx: I think you're one of those people who scream "GUYS STOP HAVING FUN"? ;-) 07:52:28 I guess that getting reincarnated as human helps, too. 07:52:40 -!- davelambert [n=djl@79-73-148-216.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:52:47 ehehehe 07:52:59 Anyhow, I would just like to say that B5 was a lovely show. 07:53:27 Even if it was about magical space goblins with crap stuck on their foreheads getting reincarnated and with the power to bend spoons with their minds. 07:53:53 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Success] 07:54:10 Zhivago: I think the proper term was boneheads ;-) 07:55:04 davelambert [n=djl@79-73-148-216.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 07:55:58 -!- davelambert [n=djl@79-73-148-216.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has left #lisp 07:57:05 pity that they lost original model files, it would have been nice to have all cgi rerendered for DVD release 07:58:55 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:02:31 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-226-227.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 08:10:01 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:10:22 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:12:22 -!- nanobit [i=retsiser@gw.pulsar-zone.net] has quit ["bye"] 08:14:35 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.15.227] has joined #lisp 08:14:46 nanobit [i=yrusaert@gw.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:55 hi, is there a format directive for printing "once", "twice" , "three times", etc? 08:17:52 besides format conditionals that is, something like ~R 08:18:20 i think i might have seen it, though i could be confusing that with the ordinals 08:18:25 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:20:11 fusss: I don't remember seeing something for "once", "twice", etc. 08:21:53 fusss: but isn't it easy to derive from ~R? i.e. only "once" and "twice" are different from the pattern "~R times" 08:23:18 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 08:23:51 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:24:11 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:25:17 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:26:01 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:21 macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:37:10 -!- icylisper [n=icylispe@115.99.32.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:42:07 Nice my pretty-printer patches got merged. They make looking at macro expansions much nicer. 08:42:25 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:45:08 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 08:46:56 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:47:15 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 08:50:13 fe[nl]ix: There are no distfiles available for kmrcl-1.98 on files.b9.com. Who should I get in touch with regarding that server? 08:51:04 schmx_ [n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:51:59 -!- schmx [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:52:05 Yuuhi`` [i=benni@p5483EDA9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:52:08 -!- schmx_ is now known as schme 08:53:07 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483F41D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:53:36 Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-18.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:53:39 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:53:53 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:55:39 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:56:08 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 08:58:57 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:01:52 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A26CF.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:05:55 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 09:06:13 hello 09:06:37 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:07:16 icylisper [n=icylispe@115.99.32.68] has joined #lisp 09:08:55 hey kami- how is the web app coming? 09:10:31 -!- Elench is now known as Deus- 09:10:36 -!- Deus- is now known as Deus-Imperator 09:10:48 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 09:12:57 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.46.116] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:14:42 mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 09:15:14 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:16:11 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 09:17:13 antoszka: kevin rosenberg is the guy who runs b9 09:17:57 antifuchs: thx 09:18:04 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:18:31 antifuchs: is he around here? 09:18:58 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d25e9.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 09:20:13 he used to hang around here until a few years ago, as kmr 09:20:22 but I don't think he comes to #lisp very often anymore 09:20:42 Yeah. 09:21:01 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 09:21:21 I'll see if I can find some contact details on the web. Bit busy with resurrecting my machine as well :( 09:21:26 ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-22-42.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 09:22:08 benny [n=benny@i577A1ED0.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:22:19 antoszka: backups! :-) 09:22:39 kmr has been MIA for a while 09:22:52 (including config files in external VC repo) 09:22:57 p_l: I do have them. But there are other complications. 09:23:09 fusss: Ishowed a first version to the customer. Iexpected a lot of criticism because of the generic UI. But, they were content. 09:23:11 p_l: I think we've discussed that topic recently :) 09:23:28 kami-: what are you using? 09:24:11 fusss: attila_lendvai's cl-dwim 09:24:49 attila-ware is good 09:25:34 i am on full ediware stack with some of my own crap thrown in, and clsql for backend 09:25:38 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d25e9.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:25:52 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d25e9.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 09:26:52 lnostdal: here is another one http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-dwim/darcs/wui/ 09:27:03 Lisp web servers, why so many? :-P 09:27:09 fusss: yes. attila-ware is tested in real-world apps (in the field) which leads to many small details which make development easy. 09:27:18 ... cl-dwim definitely needs better page. I'd never guess that what I've been looking for in dwim was in WUI 09:27:21 ahyeah, fusss 09:28:18 p_l: that's true. It's a bit difficult to find your way through attilaware. 09:31:12 kami-: and cl-def doesn't help, frankly speaking 09:32:04 francogrex [n=franco@205.224-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 09:35:59 p_l: I'm not experienced enough to judge the issues which have been discussed regarding the use of (read) macros in their code base 09:36:43 p_l: I just use them and they work as advertised. 09:37:08 Hi for those using ecl: I saw it's possible to build a dll library using (c:build-shared-library "c:/test.dll" :lisp-files '("c:/test.o")) 09:37:20 kami-: I'll only say that (def ...) syntax is definitely non-standard, and if you are not acquaintaned with it you can feel a little lost :D 09:37:31 for example. But how can one use such test.dll? 09:37:39 francogrex: through ECL 09:38:15 p_l, yes, but how do you call it: summpose it contains a function (add x y) 09:38:20 p_l: yes, but it saves a lot of typing and as long as one is aware of what those def ... expand to, it's OK (for me) 09:38:22 basically, ECL allows you to compile a system into a dynamic library. 09:39:01 how to call it from within the ecl? 09:39:14 francogrex: you load said system in ECL and then call it. You can't really call it from, for example, C, unless you link said app with ECL runtime, set it up etc. 09:40:14 I have one window with slime-inspector open. From an sldb buffer RET on an inspectable object opens it in this window. How can I get back to the object I was inspecting earlier? slime-inspector-previous/next do not seem to be the right command. Also l (pop) does not work. 09:40:25 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["brb"] 09:43:00 p_l: but in my ecl interpreter when i do > (add 2 3) RESULT: The function ADD is undefined. 09:43:32 there must be a way to make a link to test.dll 09:43:53 to load it or something like when we load a fas file 09:45:31 but can't see how 09:47:56 (load "c:/test.dll") doesn't work 09:48:11 francogrex: I think you might need to read some source, cause I can't find exact documentation. Have you tried (asdf:load-fasl-op ...) ? 09:48:58 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:51:18 francogrex: also, have you tried :ld C:/test.dll 09:53:16 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 09:53:43 yeah, same as (load "C:/test.dll") gives error: "Found invalid character Null". i think it's expecting a fas file only with :ld or (load.. 09:53:58 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:54:22 there is very probably a specific way to load the dll but google isn't helping much to find it 09:55:57 i found this: (ffi:load-foreign-library "c:/test.dll") 09:56:17 francogrex: yeah, but this way you probably won't get it initialized 09:56:19 results in : # 09:56:34 but when > (add 2 3)The function ADD is undefined. 09:56:57 maybe doesn't work in interpreter mode 09:57:52 francogrex: basically, it's not getting initialized 09:59:30 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-181-247.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:02:20 p_l, not even when put in a file, fas compiling it and loading that still is not linking to the dll. It's a pity ecl is poor on documentation and support, it's such a nice implementation though 10:05:43 -!- aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host41-29-dynamic.31-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:07:37 isn't ecl "already" a .so? 10:08:02 lnostdal: the question is compiling a system into another .so and loading it into runtime 10:08:26 yeah, but can't you just use the ecl .so as proxy for your stuff? 10:09:08 dumping a new ecl-core or whatever might be the "another .so" .. maybe i'm missing something 10:09:11 lnostdal, I'm on win32. dll are the shared libraries 10:09:36 francogrex, i know that .. on linux it's .so .. *meh* 10:09:41 never mind 10:10:13 lnostdal, yes i know that on linux it is that's why i precised that i'm on win 10:10:52 the core ecl.dll (or ecl.so) doesn't conatin user added functions 10:10:58 contain 10:15:22 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-146-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:23:05 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-210-102.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:34:40 aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host41-29-dynamic.31-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:34:59 -!- aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host41-29-dynamic.31-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:35:57 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-13-64.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 10:37:14 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d25e9.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:38:57 Hmm.. I am using clbuild here and I did a ./clbuild make-project Parsley 10:39:00 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:39:13 now with sbcl running here I can't get (require 'parsley) to work. 10:39:23 and there sure is a systems/Parsley.asd 10:39:59 Is this the way it is supposed to be? (: 10:40:52 also asdf:load-op fails me. 10:41:54 or any good solution to this? 10:43:29 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d25e9.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 10:45:11 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-17-7.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:47:43 morphling_ [n=stefan@gssn-590d25e9.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 10:51:05 nunb: No way currently 10:55:10 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:55:51 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 10:56:57 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:58:56 -!- morphling_ [n=stefan@gssn-590d25e9.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:00:03 morphling_ [n=stefan@gssn-590d25e9.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 11:02:49 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:03:52 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 11:04:09 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-131.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:04:28 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:06:11 -!- morphling_ [n=stefan@gssn-590d25e9.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:06:47 morphling_ [n=stefan@gssn-590d25e9.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 11:07:32 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:10:48 -!- morphling_ [n=stefan@gssn-590d25e9.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:11:05 morphling_ [n=stefan@gssn-590d25e9.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 11:11:23 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:12:02 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:14:02 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.249.118] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:17:08 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d25e9.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [No route to host] 11:21:23 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:22:13 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 11:23:50 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 11:27:02 -!- morphling_ [n=stefan@gssn-590d25e9.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:29:15 -!- icylisper [n=icylispe@115.99.32.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:30:23 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 11:31:00 morphling_ [n=stefan@gssn-590d25e9.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 11:31:00 -!- morphling_ [n=stefan@gssn-590d25e9.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:31:44 morphling_ [n=stefan@gssn-590d25e9.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 11:33:07 -!- francogrex [n=franco@205.224-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:35:44 -!- morphling_ [n=stefan@gssn-590d25e9.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:36:08 morphling_ [n=stefan@gssn-590d25e9.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 11:37:19 freddie111 [n=user@ppp-94-64-167-121.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 11:44:45 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:46:05 dalton [n=user7994@187.34.44.222] has joined #lisp 11:46:22 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.46.116] has joined #lisp 11:47:31 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1CC94.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:30 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 11:50:52 -!- tompa [n=tompa@h59ec273c.sehjjak.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit ["Client Quit"] 11:52:30 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:01 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:55:27 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:57:51 -!- dalton is now known as ademir_da_guia 11:59:07 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229143154.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:59:40 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1CC94.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:00:29 -!- ademir_da_guia is now known as ademir 12:05:35 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:06:43 dysinger [n=dysinger@200.25.197.105] has joined #lisp 12:07:16 -!- morphling_ is now known as morphling 12:09:02 -!- Yuuhi`` [i=benni@p5483EDA9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:09:45 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483EDA9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:26 francogrex [n=franco@205.224-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 12:14:40 yesterday I asked about highlighting specific commonlisp syntax keywords in emacs 12:14:57 I found a way (very simple but not the best): 12:15:09 for example: (font-lock-add-keywords 'lisp-mode '(("setf \\|setq \\|collect \\|push \\|print \\|format \\|collect \\|nil\\|do " 0 '((foreground-color . "blue"))))) 12:15:34 Cool. 12:15:34 antoszka, memo from fe[nl]ix: I updated kmrcl in the overlay 1.98->1.99 12:15:56 fe[nl]ix: Just noticed and already got it, thanks. 12:15:57 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-17-7.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 12:16:31 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-160-203.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:16:59 u add that to your .emacs file 12:17:15 francogrex: You can now collect a ready-made list of keywords from the vim lisp-syntax file, and you're ready to go. 12:17:19 Obviously. 12:19:06 antoszka: I tried to get at least all functions to have them in a list of the form above but some are problematic; it's good that you select only the few that u use frequently like setf setq push etc 12:20:15 francogrex: Yeah, will have to try myself, too. 12:20:19 of course one drawback of the above is that when u type for example setf it's already in blue, while it should becaome blue only when thete is a paren before like (setf 12:28:34 icylisper [n=icylispe@115.99.32.68] has joined #lisp 12:31:25 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-68-245.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:37:05 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 12:42:02 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-160-203.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:43:08 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 12:50:37 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:10 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 12:55:59 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-160-203.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:57:18 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.15.227] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:57:27 splittist [i=5065ccd8@gateway/web/freenode/x-cccjjncsawurfgoq] has joined #lisp 12:57:32 morning 12:57:57 hi splittist 12:58:29 What's new and exciting? 12:59:48 Digital watches 12:59:48 silence... 13:03:42 tla [n=tla88888@c-76-118-155-5.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:14 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:04:44 *splittist* lost his digital watch yesterday ): 13:05:43 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 13:06:09 Ford Prefect would be happy. 13:09:18 francogrex: Are you not happy with the normal highlighting in emacs? 13:10:37 -!- tla [n=tla88888@c-76-118-155-5.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit ["Quit"] 13:11:28 trggr [n=trggr@c-76-118-155-5.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:52 loxs [n=loxs@82.119.85.174] has joined #lisp 13:13:54 Reav___ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 13:14:06 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-28-37.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:18:45 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.46.116] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:19:17 matley [n=matley@151.66.57.224] has joined #lisp 13:21:49 schme: sorry I was away coding for a while. 13:22:14 schme: not very much, i wanted some keywords to be highlighted such as setf push collect etc 13:22:38 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 13:23:06 by the way, is there a way in IRC to get notified with a beep when someone calls your name? 13:25:38 "in IRC" ? 13:25:39 :) 13:25:45 dont think that's in rfc 1459 13:27:55 francogrex: I'm sure you can tweak your IRC client, that apart from highlighting the line it will also emit a BEL character (^g). 13:30:48 Is there a way to reduce SBCL's chatter level? Suppress style warnings? 13:33:01 trggr: check muffle-warnings, but normally you want to use that very selectively 13:34:16 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Success] 13:34:37 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 13:35:33 Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A6603E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:28 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 13:37:10 michaelw: thanks, I'll check. Just tired of scrolling *inferior-lisp* buffer in Emacs :) 13:37:29 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-372.yok.fi] has quit [No route to host] 13:37:46 trggr: are you not using SLIME? 13:37:51 I do 13:41:14 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:16 trggr: (setf *compile-print* nil) 13:50:25 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-065-221.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:26 francogrex: you can configure erc for that. 13:51:49 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:55:59 fe[nl]ix: thanks. So now I am using (setf *compile-print* nil) and (declaim (sb-ext:muffle-conditions sb-ext:compiler-note)) 13:56:33 however, I still see this: STYLE-WARNING: redefining MAKE-OP in DEFUN 13:57:40 -!- freddie111 [n=user@ppp-94-64-167-121.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:58:43 ok, thx 13:59:11 nh_ [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 13:59:21 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:59:37 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:01:11 -!- icylisper [n=icylispe@115.99.32.68] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:02:26 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 14:02:29 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-50-233.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 14:02:51 -!- splittist [i=5065ccd8@gateway/web/freenode/x-cccjjncsawurfgoq] has quit [] 14:04:06 francogrex: there's even a speach module for emacs, I think you could configure erc to use it and have all erc sentences read aloud for you. 14:04:21 s/all erc/all irc/ 14:05:32 What can one *not* do in emacs! amazing. 14:05:50 ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 14:05:58 i was like a sucker using mirc 14:06:03 :-) 14:06:07 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:09:52 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-210-102.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:04 I now something: programming lisp 14:10:09 know 14:10:33 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:10:36 Any good MUD clients in emacs? 14:11:10 http://www.waider.ie/hacks/emacs/mud.html is what google finds 14:11:18 Version 2.6 released March 3 1999 14:11:20 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:11:24 "Releases are infrequent," 14:11:25 hehe 14:11:42 That's the only one i saw 14:11:53 -!- antgreen [n=Anthony@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 14:14:27 Can any of you recommend a goood book on lambda calculus? 14:14:51 SCIP? 14:15:26 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-131.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:15:35 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 14:15:37 *jthing* is looking to expand a bit on the material in "Lisp In Small Pieces" 14:16:03 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest88880 14:16:43 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:16:59 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 14:17:30 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:17:59 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 14:18:33 -!- francogrex [n=franco@205.224-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:19:00 francogrex [n=franco@205.224-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 14:19:23 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-4fe070d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:20:42 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:21:36 also Stoy, Joseph E. 1977. Denotational Semantics. (old) 14:23:03 Could you repeat, the last entry begor Stoy? I lost the connection.. 14:23:31 it's SCIP the MIT book 14:23:53 Ok, thanks 14:24:00 SICP 14:24:00 not SCIP 14:25:13 sure: it's Abelson-Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs 14:25:42 SICP on lamba calculus? 14:26:21 as much as Queinnec-lisp small pieces is 14:26:31 -!- nh_ is now known as nha 14:26:42 Sure. But that doesn't make it "a good book on lambda calculus". 14:26:52 The standard reference, if you're mathematically inclined, is H.P. Barendregt "The Lambda Calculus: Its Syntax and Semantics" 14:27:02 no, that's why I mentioned stoy 1997 14:27:15 sorry 1977 14:29:18 Thanks, francogrex and housel. I,ll try the ones on denotational semantics and lambda calculus. Both are used in the book. 14:30:15 -!- pragma_ [n=pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has quit [Client Quit] 14:31:03 pragma_ [n=pragma@blackshell.com] has joined #lisp 14:31:37 -!- trggr [n=trggr@c-76-118-155-5.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:31:51 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:32:01 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-4fe070d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:32:25 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:35:22 -!- matley [n=matley@151.66.57.224] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:40:03 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:40:05 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:12 -!- francogrex [n=franco@205.224-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:43:15 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 14:43:18 malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:43:44 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:45 matley [n=matley@151.66.57.224] has joined #lisp 14:46:54 schoppen1auer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:49:11 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:49:26 kleppari [n=spa@jaki.tolva.is] has joined #lisp 14:54:57 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-67-238.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:55:26 GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:27 slava: I found one paper that examines the effect of static scheduling techniques on OOO architectures, "Static Scheduling for Out-of-order Instruction Issue Processors" from 2003(?). The conclusion is that you want inlining, but aggressive static scheduling techniques (conversion of branches into guards, explicit renaming, or percolating instructions before branches into predecessors) tend to have deleterious effects compared to 14:58:56 demmel [n=demmel@c040.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:59:40 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 14:59:53 pkhuong`: cut off after "compared to" 15:00:07 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:00:29 compared to not scheduling and executing on the same OOO processor (simulation result, YMMV, etc). 15:03:12 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 15:05:35 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 15:05:48 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:06:34 gugamilare [n=gugamila@201-75-224-81-am.cpe.vivax.com.br] has joined #lisp 15:08:46 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:08:49 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:11:40 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 15:13:47 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:14:01 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:14:03 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-31-78.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:14:14 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:28 slava: also, "Static Instruction Scheduling For Dynamic Issue Processors" says that regular ILP-oriented scheduling followed by a linearisation pass to reduce register pressure works. 15:18:20 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 15:20:10 caliostro [n=chatzill@dynamic-adsl-94-38-73-229.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 15:21:09 -!- gugamilare [n=gugamila@201-75-224-81-am.cpe.vivax.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:21:09 ment [i=thement@ibawizard.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:18 -!- Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A6603E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:21:37 gugamilare [n=gugamila@201-75-224-81-am.cpe.vivax.com.br] has joined #lisp 15:21:38 why is not possibile to implement the if operator as a new function instead of a macro? 15:23:24 mathrick pasted "SBCL gross string output stream inefficiency" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84571 15:23:32 caliostro: functions evalutate all their arguments. 15:23:41 can anyone tell if this problem still exists in SBCL > 1.0.21? 15:24:28 it seems that once you use a STRING-OUTPUT-STREAM more than once, it runs into O(n^2) in updating the PREV list 15:24:53 michaelw: thank you, i have got it now 15:24:54 so merely recreating the output stream each time makes it more than 10x as fast on 30 runs 15:25:11 amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 15:25:20 -!- gugamilare [n=gugamila@201-75-224-81-am.cpe.vivax.com.br] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:25:32 that's a problem that hits me very hard in weblocks 15:26:17 gugamilare [n=gugamila@201-75-224-81-am.cpe.vivax.com.br] has joined #lisp 15:29:24 -!- GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:29:29 mathrick, interesting .. i'm messing around with string-output-stream here too .. do you have test-case? .. some short benchmark? .. 15:29:41 lnostdal: that's the testcase 15:29:46 (i got 1.0.30.21 here .. on x86) 15:29:47 just look at what I pasted 15:29:48 oh 15:30:21 I'd be very interested in hearing if it happens for you too 15:30:32 ok, i don't have webblocks here .. i suppose i could just fill that up with something random and try 15:30:36 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:30:44 lnostdal: umm, mathrick pasted "SBCL gross string output stream inefficiency" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84571 15:30:49 click the link 15:30:52 use the code 15:31:14 yah, what i mean is i don't have this; (render-month-grid-prof (now)) 15:31:24 oh, sorry 15:31:34 I'll replace that, hold on 15:31:37 karvus [n=thomas@ti511110a080-1456.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:31:37 I thought I did already 15:34:08 francogrex [n=franco@205.224-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 15:35:35 does anyone conisder working on a project to translate lisp code to asm interesting (just like gcc/gas for c)? 15:35:57 francogrex: Isn't that what we use sbcl for? 15:36:47 schme: yes but sbcl doesn't translate into asm code that is complete, it's only for inspection 15:36:48 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:37:02 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-123.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:37:02 ok... 15:37:33 This actually news to me. 15:37:45 lnostdal: odd, I can't actually reduce it to a minimal case 15:37:57 malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:38:16 mathrick, me neither .. just a single write-line + get-output-stream-string gives the expected result 15:38:20 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 15:38:26 schme: I think he means you can't dump it to a file and run it through gas 15:38:31 oh. 15:39:08 Well yeah, I guess sbcl doesn't keep stuff in assembly limbo. That is no good for anyone (: 15:40:06 francogrex: I think you could with not too much work get sbcl to output assembly for you. 15:40:32 schme: curious, how would you go about doing it? 15:40:39 let me give you a simple sample 15:40:50 -!- slackjaw [n=jolyonw@124-171-248-180.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:41:17 francogrex: I do not know, but there is for each port of sbcl a backend that translates it all to native machine code. I'm sure there is some intermediate step where you could have it all just go asm on your ass. 15:41:35 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-160-203.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:41:58 But it is a bit of an odd thing. Do you want the whole lisp image dumped as assembly? 15:42:15 why do't u use the disassemble function? 15:42:21 no not all, only what is used 15:42:22 mathrick: can you try adding a (terpri *weblocks-output-stream*) inside the loop and remeasure? 15:42:28 caliostro: Ya who knows :) 15:42:39 jsnell: sure 15:43:13 caliostro: I think mathrick got it right with that the disassemble output isn't useable in a freestanding assembler (like gas or some such)... but seems to me one would have to dump the whole core as assembly source to have it useable (: 15:43:22 ruediger_ [n=ruediger@91-115-26-245.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:43:30 ok 15:43:38 why don't you build a lisp machine? 15:43:41 jsnell: yep, that helps 15:44:07 sigh, maybe I should get around to fixing that bug then 15:44:35 yes please :) 15:44:41 francogrex: dumping "only what you use" .. also gets a bit odd. That is the problem. 15:45:14 if you want to be able to run it through gas. 15:45:35 I just don't understand this fascination with outputting a million characters into a string with no newlines in between 15:46:21 schme, not really, it's the treeshaker concept 15:46:32 francogrex: there would not be much point in producing assembly (gas input) from lisp code, since you would be missing the whole environment, the garbage collector, the condition handlers, the CL "library", etc. 15:46:57 francogrex: on the other hand, it's easy to write an LAP assembler in lisp, generating assembler source from sexps. 15:47:02 jsnell: HTML generation 15:47:20 it's not deliberately to kill perfomarnce, quite the opposite 15:47:31 francogrex: then adding a few macros, you quickly make it a "high level" programming language. 15:47:32 if you don't indent, you save quite a lot on bandwidth 15:48:06 and if you don't indent, then it's hard to expect the HTML lib will output a newline every once in a while just to make sure no-one is choking on long strings 15:48:19 jsnell: I can work around it easily by hand, now I know the problem 15:48:36 pjb, how interesting to the programmers that would be, u think? 15:49:04 francogrex: To be honest I don't think it'd be interesting to anyone :) 15:49:29 No one is interested in reading megabytes of assembly ;) 15:50:30 francogrex: s/\bu\b/you/ 15:50:32 schme, I am interested in what pjb just said 15:50:46 does terpri call or do something behind the scene that one might call manually or directly oneself without adding a newline to the stream? 15:50:57 mathrick: what does that mean? s/\bu\b/you/ 15:51:07 francogrex: "change u to you" 15:51:24 and? any meaning 15:51:28 lnostdal: no, the newlines are the significant part 15:51:38 ok, jsnell 15:51:41 francogrex: it's funny to write, but unless you have to code the few kernel or driver routines that need some specific assembler instructions, it is not really useful. Even for that, you could use sbcl VOPs. 15:52:01 francogrex: You might be interested in looking at movitz. 15:52:01 francogrex: it means we're not writing arc here, we can spare the couple keystrokes it takes to write proper "you" instead of the ugly pseudo-shorthand "u" 15:52:07 lnostdal: setting *print-pretty* to nil might have the same effect, don't remeber for sure 15:52:28 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-67-238.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:52:29 mathrick, aye ok if i remember 15:52:56 minion: movitz 15:52:57 movitz: Movitz is a Common Lisp implementation that targets the x86 PC architecture "on-the-metal". http://www.cliki.net/movitz 15:53:09 Not that it seems to be very alive. 15:53:22 schme: there's also SBCL OS 15:53:31 or is there? 15:53:34 :P 15:53:38 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:53:45 last time I heard, it booted quite successfully 15:53:52 movitz I have seen running with my own eyes. sbclos I have just heard about. 15:53:55 That is good to hear :) 15:53:55 hasn't been following since 15:54:03 *haven't 15:54:26 francogrex: Also in the sbcl src tree there is a whole subsection for assembly that might be fun. 15:54:42 schme, never got movitz to work... u're supposed to boot from a floppy disk??? who has floppy disks these days? 15:54:51 chuck moore has floppy disks! 15:54:58 francogrex: actually, there's something else even more funny: start from a 680x0 processor (you get fetch an emulator such as bosch or qemu, and start by coding in binary (like if you solded the connections of a ROM) a little monitor to let you peek, poke, jump and interrupt in hex with a keyboard. Then use that to write a minimal 'lisp' (minimal reader, and cons car cdr lambda), and use it to write a proto-scheme. 15:54:58 sorry: You're supposed 15:55:00 francogrex: umm, that is just the bootable image 15:55:09 francogrex: you can boot it with bochs or some such. 15:55:11 francogrex, qemu accepts a "virtual" floppy disk 15:55:20 when you burn a bootable CD, you actually burn a floppy disk image 15:55:21 francogrex: then use that proto-scheme to write a scheme, then use that scheme to write a CL (there are already implementations of CL written in scheme). 15:55:36 More than one? 15:55:38 mathrick: not true 15:55:44 It's easier to do that on a 680x0 than on an ix86... 15:55:47 p_l: that's what El Torrito is 15:56:10 it's a virtual floppy, it works by BIOS self-poking itself into seeing it as a real floppy 15:56:11 mathrick: what you wrote is El-Torrito floppy emulation mode, which is a hack for DOS-like OSes that don't have real cd drivers 15:56:19 pjb: You forgot the vital step of implementing a forth to implement the scheme upon :) 15:56:41 p_l: and AFAIK, all bootable CDs still work like that. Then they boot into a real environment 15:56:46 schme: I bet we can implement a minimal lisp reader and primitives directly in hexa. 15:56:48 mathrick: modern OSes use native mode, which is basically a simple bootsector 15:56:59 p_l: link for RTFM? 15:57:03 pjb: I take that wager and raise you a donkey! 15:57:21 mathrick: El-Torrito spec, don't have it on hand. Or just look at how NT or Linux boots from CD :) 15:58:19 HG` [n=wells@xdslgr021.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:58:38 francogrex: I think LiSP has a chapter on generating C from lisp.. you could ask gcc to spit that as asm :) 15:58:54 mathrick: from mkisofs manpage: If the boot image is not an image of a floppy, you need to add either -hard-disk-boot or -no-emul-boot. 15:58:54 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-22-42.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:59:01 p_l: okay, I stand corrected 15:59:40 mathrick: iirc El-Torrito even allowed for multiple architectures 16:01:10 demmel_ [n=demmel@e195.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 16:01:20 schme, talking abou lisp in small pieces? 16:02:11 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:02:23 francogrex: yes. 16:02:30 what pjb was talking about seems interrsting but i doubt anyone has the enregy/will to do it 16:02:42 writing... a scheme in hex? 16:03:04 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 16:03:53 GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:57 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:29 more about lisp to asm then to a higher level 16:05:07 it would help translate lisp to any other language you want 16:05:39 I'm not even sure how "translate lisp to any other language" is something one would want :) 16:05:58 mathrick: http://www.phoenix.com/NR/rdonlyres/98D3219C-9CC9-4DF5-B496-A286D893E36A/0/specscdrom.pdf <--- look for entry on NO EMULATION (it will act like hdd bootsector, except with more space for storing the image) 16:06:20 schme: Linj. You might get request for Java, so why not code it in Lisp and then generate Java to hand in? :D 16:06:37 francogrex: I will say this though, ever since I started talking with you in #asm yesterday you have turned into my favourite peAAKA 16:06:40 oj 16:06:44 keyboald error 16:06:47 francogrex: person on IRC! 16:06:50 that was it. 16:07:05 p_l: But.. lisp -> asm -> java ? (: 16:07:26 schme: that's what happens when you use a java decompiler on Clojure :P 16:07:27 francogrex: You have the sickest ideas so I assume you are on to something (: 16:07:40 yes and the chestnut lisp to c even better 16:09:12 Well I need more coffee it seems. 16:11:44 schme: I am not a programmer, I'm a linguistic oriented person 16:11:58 p_l: java decompiler can decompile assembly too, not just bytecode? 16:13:17 mathrick: I meant JVM assembly. Except that asking a java decompiler to run on Clojure-generated code would make it sick, because Java doesn't support all JVM opcodes 16:13:35 btw, anyone knows what happened to http://www.evaluator.pt 16:13:44 francogrex: Cools. Linguistics is veeery interesting. much moreso than programming :) 16:13:57 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 16:14:05 schme: I wouldn't say *more*, I feel the same appeal in both 16:14:12 that said, I'm a languages nut :) 16:14:15 mathrick: but you're a geek (: 16:14:17 ;) 16:14:47 p_l: oh JVM assembly.. that is something yeah. .. but lisp -> native -> java. That would be an odd path to trodd :) 16:14:49 I don't think launching into hour-long discussions about languages on the slightest provocation makes me non-geek :P 16:15:01 But.. but.. 16:15:18 *p_l* would like Linj to get published if the company doesn't work anymore 16:15:26 So how about the splitting of the electron, eh? 16:15:49 p_l: we're waiting for oracle to realease chestnut 16:15:59 francogrex: chestnut? 16:16:20 it seems the c**ts will never let go 16:16:42 chestnut si the future 16:16:44 *p_l* doesn't trust Oracle on anything. At least they might kill MySQL, and there will be much rejoicing 16:17:12 i hope they kill java too 16:17:15 caliostro, i wouldn't say that 16:17:49 and what is that chestnut you are speaking of? 16:18:00 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:07 chestnut was a very expensive project 16:18:08 caliostro: I'd rather have them kill Oracle, but that won't happen 16:18:22 -!- demmel [n=demmel@c040.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:18:36 that translated any lisp code to a very readble C code 16:20:15 yeah, just found it on google groups archive 16:20:48 ECL is quite nice, IMHO, except it could use better docs :3 16:21:14 it booted slime without a hitch, though, which I didn't expect 16:21:14 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:22:23 p_l: tell me what is the advantage of using slime+emacs as opposed to just emacs to run cl engine? 16:22:53 I never undrstood why add yet another layer 16:23:17 you can run code throw a swank server and debug it 1millions miles from here 16:23:42 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslgr021.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:24:01 francogrex: real advantage is when you have swank, SLIME and Emacs all implemented in CL :P 16:24:47 I'm not talking about swank or anything like that, simply editing and running cl 16:24:54 in it's simple pure form 16:25:29 surely slime provides things like function signatures in the minibuffer, M-. and so on? 16:25:44 francogrex: programming language semantics is complex a matter. 16:25:46 i 'd like to know what's the real advantage of having a girl friend 16:25:55 haha 16:25:57 caliostro: she pays half the rent. 16:26:06 no she doesn't 16:26:10 then kick her out. 16:26:16 francogrex: fundamentally, you're not wrong in considering that the semantic of a program is given by it's assembler code, and that this can serve as a common language for translation. 16:26:26 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 16:26:30 caliostro a little of the old in out, in out 16:26:31 francogrex: but in doing so the hard problem is "decompiling". 16:27:14 schme: there are some psychological benefits, but I found that there isn't a good enough trust framework 16:27:23 yo! another my stupid question: do you use standard cl funcs for working with dirs or use pathnames package from PCL that wraps those funcs or use another package? 16:27:41 francogrex: The advantage of slime+swank+CL is that you get to use emacs instead of the shitty console repl. 16:27:52 francogrex: it's often easier to give the formal specification of a language with a higher level notation, such as lambda calculus (or even in that language itself, when we write a lisp interpreter in lisp). And there we can clearly see the big difference in semantics there are between some couple of languages, such as eg. lisp and C. 16:28:10 p_l: I see.. I have not encountered the problem of a lacking trust framework. But I guess I am one of the lucky ones (: 16:28:17 npoektop: I personally don't use the PCL package, but I haven't needed much complex file handling so far 16:28:20 npoektop: I'd say cl-fad is rather good 16:28:23 francogrex: remains the problem of mapping one semantic schema to another, to make a meaningful translation. 16:28:28 with-open-file in SBCL seems to do everything I need 16:28:40 but then, this isn't software that will ever be deployed on anyone else's computer, so there you go 16:29:14 schme: "trust" becomes rather important when you just want someone you can share *all* of your troubles/secrets etc. (which has definite mental benefits) 16:31:10 pjb: I see and Inrealize it's much more complex than my ability to tackle any such related project 16:33:23 p_l: cl-fad is based on PCL pathnames package ) it's maybe more complete or smth. thanx 16:34:35 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:35:11 a quick survey: in a few lines how did you first discover common lisp? I did by accident when i was asking a question on sci.math.symbolic 16:35:38 francogrex: a book called "LISP Programming Language" lying around the house 16:36:17 and seeing cover of another with title like "AutoLISP " 16:38:56 francogrex: can't remember. it was always somewhere around, but still too far to start studying it 16:40:58 p_l: Having lived together with Lisa here in a one room apartment of 42 square meters for 4 years... one gets to share a lot of troubles and secrets. 16:41:28 p_l: But sure, trust is important. I just don't feel the lack of it (: 16:41:56 francogrex: I discovered it when I was at a local library many years ago and there was some book on it. 16:42:10 -!- demmel_ [n=demmel@e195.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 16:42:12 not sure how many . 16:42:17 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:18 14 perhaps :P 16:42:32 It was a very boring book. Too bad there was no PCL at the time! 16:42:38 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 16:43:37 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 16:43:54 I remember it made it seem like CADDDR was all there was and should be. So I put it away and bought a guitar instead ;) 16:45:09 schme: the one I had was discussing Scheme (I think it was RRS or R2RS) and in appendix talked about ongoing standardization effort of Common Lisp to create a common ground between many "industrial" implementations 16:45:35 That sounds so much better. The one I found really put me off the whole thing for years :) 16:45:42 benny` [n=benny@i577A1ED0.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:46:18 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1ED0.versanet.de] has quit [No route to host] 16:46:35 -!- benny` is now known as benny 16:48:19 francogrex: I'd put my money on a lot of people come the emacs route. 16:48:49 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:49:24 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:23 schme, same experience here. 'cept I picked up the book "Programmera i assembler" by Peter Norton, instead. :-) 16:50:24 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@200.25.197.105] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:50:39 hmm 16:51:05 Haven't read it, but swedish programming titles give me the shivers (: 16:51:12 There's something... wrong with 'em. 16:51:17 the code is even translated. 16:51:22 my god. 16:51:43 incidently, a friend wanted to get rid of his copy just a week ago, so I now have it in my shelf. Brings me back to when I was, oh, 11? 16:52:22 meeeemoryyyyy... all alone with the assembly book 16:52:27 VISA_RAD, HEX_SLINGA, KOD_SEG, CGRUPP, etc. 16:52:38 :D 16:53:38 "Norton Commander, writen by John Socha and released by Peter Norton Computing". The book is written by, guess who, Peter Norton and John Socha. 16:54:31 *francogrex* getting bored. Needs new progamming/statistics challenges 16:54:55 HG` [n=wells@xdslfg227.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:55:14 francogrex: have you done all of project euler? 16:55:51 malcolm_reynolds: no euler doesn't interst me 16:56:06 pity.. that's a pretty big source of tough challenges 16:56:07 tic: That was odd. I googled up norton commander and I found swedish wikipedia. and it claims diropus is a clone of it. Surely it must be the other way around. 16:56:31 -!- matley [n=matley@151.66.57.224] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:57:31 -!- Reav___ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:57:36 is there like a peer-reviewed journal for programming, let's see... 16:58:43 schme, Diropus on the Amiga? No experience there. 16:59:02 ok. another one to put on ignore I see. 16:59:17 I'll talk to you again when you have bought an amiga, tic :P 16:59:32 francogrex: That sounds mebbe a bit boring :) 16:59:58 but what do you know. http://www.iospress.nl/html/10589244.php 17:00:22 schme, does "used BeOS exclusively for 7 years" count? *jumps out of killfile* 17:00:39 tic: How does haiku compare? 17:00:59 schme, its explicit goal is to be binary- and source compatible with Release 5. 17:01:03 logBot1191 [n=logBot@59.92.197.195] has joined #lisp 17:01:07 Haven't looked at it in a while, honestly. 17:01:08 -!- logBot1191 [n=logBot@59.92.197.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:01:19 I think I used it for 5 minutes in a virtual machine. 17:01:58 francogrex: I googled "programming journal" and I'm finding an endless source. 17:02:04 about the same here. (but on real hardware) 17:02:17 logBot7872 [n=logBot@59.92.197.195] has joined #lisp 17:03:11 tic: they stopped being binary compatible with R5 17:03:16 p_l, bummer. 17:03:16 schme: this seems good: From "Lisp S-expressions to Java source code" 17:03:32 in "Computer Science and Information Systems/ComSIS, 2008" 17:03:43 Maybe it's clojure? (: 17:03:46 tic: wasn't worth it - completely incompatible C++ ABI 17:03:58 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:03:58 francogrex: LinJ? ;D 17:04:32 p_l, I thought they'd be using two sets of libraries, and that'd solve it? But if not, yeah, better to go to gcc4.x if you can't do it sanely, sucks being stuck w/ egcs-1.1 17:04:40 "By providing an S-expression based program representation for Java source code, we are able to reuse and extend Lisp macro-expansion techniques to signicantly simplify the construction of Java programs." 17:04:47 -!- logBot7872 [n=logBot@59.92.197.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:05:00 logBot1321 [n=logBot@59.92.197.195] has joined #lisp 17:05:02 p_l: iT IS LINJ 17:05:03 WOW CAPS 17:05:12 I switched caps and ctrl back. sorry :) 17:05:15 p_l, schme, true, it's boring then 17:05:36 francogrex: LinJ would be a *very* helpful tool to have at uni 17:05:41 schme, why? 17:06:04 *francogrex* continues searching google scholar 17:06:14 tic: I have realised having ctrl on the homerow made me use it wrong and it has been messing up my wrists. 17:06:25 it is really 17:06:29 damb enter 17:06:39 really much nicer to have it in the normal position :D 17:06:51 schme: you mean in the place where CapsLock normally resides? 17:07:00 OK. You should move it to its *real* position, e.g. to the left of space, where Alt usually is. 17:07:13 tic: But tha's my super :( 17:07:26 schme, make super to the left of that key, where the windows key is? 17:07:26 My only complaint for switching Caps and RCtrl is with FF tab movement keystrokes 17:07:34 tic: but that's my meta :( 17:07:45 schme, so move meta to the caps key! 17:07:46 it's all about redefining caps lock to ctrl. especially on a mac 17:07:57 tic: But then I don't have my metas at the same place :( 17:08:07 schme, hrm. bummer. 17:08:17 meta, ctrl, super. you need a fourth key. 17:08:17 malcolm_reynolds: I switched back just today after years of the switcharoo. 17:08:21 *p_l* switches caps lock with control, because he has laptop keyboard not a nice fullsize one 17:08:25 I need my foot switches back really. 17:08:29 did it really mess up your wrists? 17:08:34 Yes. 17:08:37 schme, you need an extra key in front of space. 17:08:41 crap 17:08:47 malcolm_reynolds: Yes. 17:08:56 tic: That would be very nice :) 17:09:11 the good thing about left control in the bottom left corner is that you can press it with the base of your hand. 17:09:12 schme: I plan on getting a symbolics keyboard and silencing it 17:09:28 p_l: I plan on stealing your keyboard! 17:09:39 tic: if you are an alien, sure 17:09:43 tic: I have noticed the base of hand press :D 17:09:43 schme, I've been considering that for ages. I just need a proper physical key, and from there on it's easy. 17:10:14 tic: It's actually a very good idea. I can actually imagine two half the size of space. one for right thumb and one for left. 17:10:49 ( and ) ; 17:10:51 dysinger [n=dysinger@200.25.197.105] has joined #lisp 17:10:51 eh 17:10:55 : ( ) ; 17:11:00 a lil' forth humor there. 17:11:00 schme, yups. I've been wanting that for ages, but again, finding a proper key. :/ 17:11:11 i'll forth ya 17:11:15 hrk [n=hrk@acurwa001130.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:11:44 schme: good luck with booby trapped keyboard :> 17:11:48 I wonder what it'll cost to get a custom made keyboard. 17:11:53 boobies!? :D 17:11:59 I'm happy with my Das Keyboard. 17:12:44 tic: What is really cool with das keyborad is that you can turn 'em 180 degrees and use 'em "upside down". It's really comfortable. you jut need to invert your keymap. 17:13:03 *schme* sometimes makes shit up to see if people will do it. 17:13:05 schme, haha, never tried. (it's the DKIII, euro version, w/ blank caps) 17:13:10 yeah. 17:13:12 turn it over man. 17:13:21 it's currently got coffee inside. 17:13:32 caffeine abuse :( 17:13:34 (so it's already flipped over, drying) 17:13:36 yes. 17:13:45 schme: not boobies. traps. The kind that leaves you without your upper body 17:13:46 thus requiring me to type on oatmeal, aka UltraX. 17:14:34 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@200.25.197.105] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:15:32 boobies!? :D 17:15:45 -!- Guest88880 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 17:17:16 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:17:34 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:18:23 -!- gugamilare [n=gugamila@201-75-224-81-am.cpe.vivax.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:19:01 -!- masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:52 kami-` [n=user@p5B0842DE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:04 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:21:12 -!- schoppen1auer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:21:41 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 17:22:12 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:22:30 ... 17:25:50 ··· 17:26:33 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 17:28:17 schme: re: custom keyboards...this guy has some talent http://mykeyboard.co.uk/microswitch/ 17:28:36 great beard too 17:30:21 *schme* looks 17:30:34 cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has joined #lisp 17:30:39 yikes 17:31:19 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:32:13 heh, this could use some antiseptic http://mykeyboard.co.uk/second.php 17:35:00 fingerlickin' good 17:37:58 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:39:07 joga: This site is much inspiration. 17:39:12 -!- lukjad007 is now known as jenkinbr_ 17:39:21 -!- jenkinbr_ is now known as lukjad007 17:40:05 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-155.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:05 schme: yeah. I got a kinesis like that some time ago and after seeing that I feel like trying to mount a touchpad to it nicely ;) 17:40:22 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:40:48 just that the touchpad I have is more than a touchpad and pretty big, so just duct taping won't be nice :) 17:46:00 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 17:48:07 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:53 -!- francogrex [n=franco@205.224-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:51:35 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:53:24 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-210-102.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:54:22 nice, I'm not good enough to make my own keyboard but am using a querty us one with a custom xmodmap, I guess that I also could add label stickers on the keys, but I only use that keymap for lisp 17:55:30 anybody experienced with visual lisp? 17:55:32 and am rather frequently changing between us_en, us_en-cl and ca_fr ones via the fluxbox menu 17:56:28 I love the microswitch video there. 17:56:56 For all these amazing keyboard interaction, and wanting to do lotsa keyboard macros.. the guy still runs windows though (: 17:57:09 we should send him an emacs tarball 17:57:19 -!- GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:57:34 caliostro: visual lisp? 17:57:48 p_l: yeah 17:58:10 a company give me a change to start programming lisp, starting with this fucking dialect 17:58:15 chance 17:58:15 the autocad autolisp? 17:58:23 phadthai: exactly 17:58:43 I think it was some library+"visual" IDE package for AutoLisp, wasn't it? 17:58:49 I've never used autocad personally 17:58:59 caliostro: I have worked some with it. 17:59:32 caliostro: (autolisp that is). It's good for doing stuff in autocad, sure. :) 18:00:52 i don't know because right now my work is writing web apps in java, but i would like to join the lisp community and a better job /better programmer too 18:01:02 caliostro: You will be pleasently surprised to learn it has no lexical scoping :) 18:02:11 caliostro: autocad only really has a use if you're working with autocad, imo. It's not quite.. something you write web apps or some such in. 18:02:18 I mean working with cad. 18:02:25 which is great fun, of course! 18:06:51 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:11:40 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 18:14:56 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 18:15:29 -!- ruediger_ [n=ruediger@91-115-26-245.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:15:50 -!- macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:16:02 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:25:15 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:26:28 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 18:26:46 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:27:25 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.218.85] has joined #lisp 18:27:26 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Client Quit] 18:28:08 gugamilare [n=gugamila@201-75-224-81-am.cpe.vivax.com.br] has joined #lisp 18:30:15 NickML [i=mlife@79.133.137.133] has joined #lisp 18:32:52 NickML pasted "defun" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84579 18:33:12 hello people 18:33:19 hello 18:34:00 How can I return values from functions? 18:34:10 the latest form evaluated is returned 18:34:19 what is the "value" you wish to return? 18:34:27 or you can use (return-from ) in the middle to return early 18:34:31 I need to condition 18:34:43    18:34:50 i'am paste code 18:34:51 woah 18:34:56 if you have any questions about the code you pasted, your first problem is the quotes aren't terminated - you need one after "const2 18:35:56 and you probably want COND (: 18:35:59 and for returning a value depending on what stype is set to, I recommend a cond statement 18:36:00 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-187-148.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 18:36:05 haha 18:36:46 ok, thanks, now try 18:36:50 (: 18:37:17 Anyone good with asdf though.. I (require 'parsley) and it tells thar be no parsley. Yet I see Parsley.asd in systems dir. 18:37:33 also, your format calls should have t as the first argument if you want the output to be printed 18:37:43 if you want it to be returned as a string, then use nil as the second argument 18:37:50 *nil as the FIRST argument* 18:37:53 apologies 18:38:45 http://paste.lisp.org/display/84580 - thought I annotated your paste. apparently not. And the third line has a space extra. 18:39:02 Gr. Disregard that paste altogether. It's stupid. 18:42:59 schme: on what OS ? 18:43:10 fe[nl]ix: arch linux 18:44:04 Drakeson` [n=user@76-10-132-254.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 18:44:25 schme: probably ASDF is looking for "parsley.asd" not "Parsley.asd". rename it and retry 18:44:47 aha 18:44:58 How do I make it work with Parsley then? 18:45:01 yeah rename worked. 18:46:05 schme: in brief, better not to try. always use lower case 18:46:41 :( 18:46:46 but it's so darned ugly :) 18:46:49 oh well 18:49:23 schme: if you don't believe me, try it yourself. you'll soon run into such concepts as readtable case, pathname customary case and their interactions in ASDF 18:49:41 fe[nl]ix: Oh I believe you. Just a bit of abummer. 18:49:46 and so obvious I should have figured it out. 18:49:47 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-69-110-30-97.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:59 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:50:46 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:52:31 masm [n=masm@a213-22-83-196.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 18:52:41 -!- masm [n=masm@a213-22-83-196.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:53:18 masm [n=masm@a213-22-83-196.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 18:53:47 I guess the easier solution is to make of linux world not case sensitive. 18:57:53 i need a function that return t if the list provided as argument contains a list itself 18:58:05 caliostro pasted "contains-list" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84582 18:58:25 (notany #'listp list) 18:58:41 oh sorry (some #'listp list) 18:58:53 it seems to work, but i think u can get a better implementation 18:59:21 -!- caliostro [n=chatzill@dynamic-adsl-94-38-73-229.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.12/2009070611]"] 18:59:24 (some #'listp list), or (loop for x in list thereis (listp x)) 18:59:34 better than SOME ? 18:59:44 -!- Drakeson [n=user@69-196-135-129.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:59:56 caliostro [n=chatzill@dynamic-adsl-94-38-73-229.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 19:00:10 caliostro: (some #'listp list), or (loop for x in list thereis (listp x)) 19:00:57 tcr: thanks 19:01:00 schme: SOME does not take :key, that's when you have to go the loop route. 19:01:14 so it's good to know both 19:01:16 I think I see caliostro ment better than the paste. 19:01:18 n/m 19:01:29 better than the paste 19:01:30 tcr: more knowledge pushes some other knowledge out ;) 19:01:31 milanj [n=milan@93.86.231.184] has joined #lisp 19:04:28 I think the opposite it actually true. Interlinking knowledge is what makes it stick in your head. 19:04:59 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:05:03 tcr: I'm quite convinced that is how it works too (: 19:06:15 -!- nanobit [i=yrusaert@gw.pulsar-zone.net] has quit ["bye"] 19:08:00 i don't know, i prefere the recursive approach 19:08:03 :-) 19:08:39 Quick question: What's the order of evaluation for the parameters of a function? left to right? 19:09:05 left to right, guaranteed 19:09:06 Lucia: Quick answer: CLHS 3.1 19:09:38 thanks. Not that quick tcr ;) jsnell came in first 19:09:39 -!- ademir is now known as dalton 19:10:25 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslfg227.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:10:31 chris2_ [n=chris@dslb-094-216-195-032.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:12 -!- loxs [n=loxs@82.119.85.174] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:11:33 anyway thanks for the ref to the HS 19:13:27 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:14:10 clhs 19.2.2.4.3 19:14:10 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/19_bbdc.htm 19:21:12 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-065-221.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:21:17 amaron_ [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 19:26:58 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:27:27 tcr: well you can always write (some (lambda (e1 e2 ... en) (predicate (key1 e1) ... (keyn en))) l1 l2 ... ln) 19:27:54 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 19:28:04 or in the simple case: (some (compose predicate key) l) 19:29:20 position-if? 19:30:05 or member-if, but I'd say that's obscure 19:30:17 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-67-238.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:31:16 -!- kami-` [n=user@p5B0842DE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:33:25 Art [n=user@84.23.60.190] has joined #lisp 19:34:46 My point is that map-like functions don't need :key because you can compose functions, and moreover it'd be impractical with the variable number of sequences you can give them. 19:35:00 -!- Art [n=user@84.23.60.190] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:35:02 Borbus_ [i=borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:31 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@84-75-21-37.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [] 19:43:27 lukego [n=lukegorr@84-75-21-37.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:44:04 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:09 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 19:44:34 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:45:18 GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:45 -!- Borbus [i=borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:47:29 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 19:47:48 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 19:49:00 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 19:51:11 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@84-75-21-37.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [] 19:51:43 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 19:52:18 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-110-139.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:52:33 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:54:35 redline6561 [n=redline6@c-71-56-34-130.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:59 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 19:58:53 I am trying to set up a lisp development environment on OSX Leopard, and experiencing some difficulties. Is there anyone here that might be able to help? I am trying to go with Aquamacs, SBCL, and SLIME. 20:01:17 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:01:53 GreatPatham: get binary build of SBCL, get clbuild 20:02:39 GreatPatham: http://unya.wordpress.com/2009/06/07/linux-common-lisp-quickstart/ <--- should work for OSX as well, you just need to use OSX builds of software 20:02:51 GreatPatham: though with OSX, I think I'd go for CCL 20:05:52 Guest25901 [n=Fare@193.253.141.91] has joined #lisp 20:06:09 schoppen1auer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:06:36 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:07:01 -!- Guest25901 [n=Fare@193.253.141.91] has quit [Client Quit] 20:07:02 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:07:22 I have "successfully" installed the components I mentioned. My confusion comes when I actually try to make the pieces fit together. As a first time Emacs user, I don't really understand the configuration needed to make Aquamacs talk to SLIME, in particular. 20:07:41 Fare [n=Fare@193.253.141.91] has joined #lisp 20:08:31 I tried the ready-lisp installation, but I wanted to get threads and 64-bit architecture 20:08:56 hi Fare 20:09:07 hi 20:09:23 So, I went to do a build as its directions specify, but the make file bombs out sayinh it can't build the README target, or some such (this was last night) 20:10:19 GreatPatham: that's why I suggest clbuild, it can generate configuration for .emacs 20:10:37 I then decided to settle without the threads or the 64-bit architecture for the time being, while I gain some general familiarity. But I though that, at least, I would get the most recent versions of things. 20:11:21 GreatPatham: go with clbuild, realy 20:11:30 minion: tell GreatPatham about clbuild 20:11:31 GreatPatham: have a look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 20:11:36 Fare: can you take a brief look at the code in iolib.pathnames ? 20:11:52 I will look now and clbuild. Thanks for the suggestion! 20:12:19 -!- chris2_ is now known as chris2 20:15:20 fe[nl]ix, sure, lemme git pull 20:15:46 nunbX [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 20:15:50 are there any dependencies, these days? 20:19:47 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 20:20:00 Fare: the usual ones: alexandria, babel, trivial-features, cffi, trivial-garbage and bordeaux-threads 20:20:29 sanslocust [n=nihildeb@HSI-KBW-078-042-109-172.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 20:20:56 Suttonian [n=Suttonia@5ac8249b.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 20:20:57 no osicat these days? 20:21:31 -!- sanslocust [n=nihildeb@HSI-KBW-078-042-109-172.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has left #lisp 20:23:48 no more 20:26:22 -!- Fare [n=Fare@193.253.141.91] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:31:13 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.231.184] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:36:06 -!- caliostro [n=chatzill@dynamic-adsl-94-38-73-229.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.12/2009070611]"] 20:37:30 blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 20:40:05 -!- hrk [n=hrk@acurwa001130.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Riece/5.0.0 Emacs/22.3 (darwin)"] 20:40:25 hrk [n=hrk@acurwa001130.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 20:41:14 -!- hrk [n=hrk@acurwa001130.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 20:41:54 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:01 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-17-7.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:47:04 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:25 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:55:56 poet [n=somethin@unaffiliated/poet] has joined #lisp 20:58:01 -!- NickML [i=mlife@79.133.137.133] has quit ["fly"] 20:59:50 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-69-110-30-97.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [] 21:11:09 I'm trying to install a working development system using clbuild. So, far, when I run ./clbuild check it tells me that it finds all the helper applications, and it succeeded in finding my SBCL installation in usr/local/bin/sbcl. It says it found no "installable systems" under clbuild/systems. I assume these are asdf files. As someone who is just starting out with lisp, is this to be expected? And are there any *.asd files that I rea 21:12:03 GreatPatham: that's normal, until you pull some stuff in. 21:12:07 Also, clbuild shows no sign of noticing that I have previously installed Aquamacs and SLIME. Should I be concerned? 21:13:19 Thanks pkhuong. 21:13:58 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 21:18:46 dysinger [n=dysinger@200.25.197.105] has joined #lisp 21:21:42 -!- lukjad007 is now known as Darcy 21:21:57 -!- Darcy is now known as lukjad007 21:28:21 -!- masm [n=masm@a213-22-83-196.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:28:26 GreatPatham: clbuild projects <--- list of projects available to install 21:29:03 Yes, I just noticed that, thank you 21:31:54 milanj [n=milan@93.86.231.184] has joined #lisp 21:32:39 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:48 I installed cl-pcre, then entered ./clbuild slime. I got an emacs buffer, but a message saying "Cannot open load file: /Users/dan/clbuild/source/slime/slime" and no sign of any lisp prompt. I checked and there is no slime directory under source. What have I missed? 21:41:49 boyscare1 [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:08 GreatPatham: clbuild install slime 21:42:47 Really, I looked through the list of packages and didn't see slime. I'll try it out, thanks! 21:44:01 And it worked! ;^) 21:45:41 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@78.113.15.249] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:46:50 EnglishGent [n=nobody@ai-core.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:49:53 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:49:53 -!- boyscare1 is now known as boyscared 21:54:54 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:55:51 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:56:38 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:56:44 athos_ [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 21:56:59 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 21:57:49 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:43 serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-154-62.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:01:43 -!- serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-181-247.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:01:51 doobie [n=doobie@cpe-024-211-237-075.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:04:47 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-17-7.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:09:03 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d25e9.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:09:51 francogrex [n=franco@91.179.246.18] has joined #lisp 22:12:00 -!- doobie [n=doobie@cpe-024-211-237-075.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Peace out."] 22:12:15 doobie [n=doobie@cpe-024-211-237-075.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:13:05 -!- logBot1321 [n=logBot@59.92.197.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:13:44 -!- doobie [n=doobie@cpe-024-211-237-075.nc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 22:14:33 doobie [n=doobie@cpe-024-211-237-075.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:14:56 -!- doobie [n=doobie@cpe-024-211-237-075.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:17:28 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:20:14 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-67-238.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #lisp 22:33:39 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229143154.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 22:36:01 -!- gugamilare [n=gugamila@201-75-224-81-am.cpe.vivax.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:36:26 Pepe_ [n=ppjet@78.113.15.249] has joined #lisp 22:44:26 masm [n=masm@a213-22-83-196.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 22:45:48 for good style programming/elegance, is it better to write lisp programs in lowercase or uppercase? 22:46:13 lower 22:46:33 ok thought so, needed confirmation. thx 22:46:57 Only use uppercase if your ears are bad 22:49:17 in which case, add earmuffs for safety. e.g. *STANDARD-OUTPUT* for all your shouting purposes. 22:54:09 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:54:21 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.231.184] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:54:26 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-69-221-252-243.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:55:33 pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 22:56:05 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:59:47 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:11 -!- francogrex [n=franco@91.179.246.18] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:02:56 lukego [n=lukegorr@84-75-21-37.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:04:30 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 23:04:39 -!- Adlai-AWAY is now known as Adlai 23:07:09 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:12:39 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:15:47 "On the academic front CL is not popular as an introduction to functional programming and is the victim of early standardization. To a degree, CL is a snapshot of functional programming in the 70s. Pattern-matching and static typing are not there. There is much in CL that is heavily procedural, too much so for teachers trying to convey the art of functional programming." 23:15:52 way to miss the point 23:17:34 poet_ [n=somethin@c-24-15-79-215.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:48 I'd say that's reasonably accurate if what you're trying to convey is *functional programming* 23:20:40 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:22:37 kpreid: yes, but he just declaimed that functional programming is the core of Lisp as if it was an axiom 23:22:57 and that's also my beef 23:23:38 CL is not a snapshot of functional programming from any point in time, because CL never tried to be a functional language 23:23:58 at one point in time, lisp and functional programming were synonymous 23:24:31 that time is long gone, and that's not what he means by "functional programming" 23:24:40 he means it how it's defined today 23:26:26 tapas [n=tapas@affenbande.org] has joined #lisp 23:27:18 slava: that's LISP, not Common Lisp. 23:28:05 CL wasn't standardized as an FP language. 23:28:39 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:28:50 -!- poet_ [n=somethin@c-24-15-79-215.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:29:39 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:05 Adlai: that piece makes a careful distinction between lisp-the-concept and common-lisp-the-implementation 23:35:07 -!- poet [n=somethin@unaffiliated/poet] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:35:44 but to be honest, lisp isn't good at teaching functional programming, just like ML isn't good at teaching metaprogramming 23:36:06 pkhuong: hm, ok. I only saw the bit that mathrick quoted. 23:36:07 pkhuong: so about insn scheduling, I was just looking at algorithms that shorten live ranges only 23:36:13 -!- masm [n=masm@a213-22-83-196.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:38:20 JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:12 pkhuong: but it also declaims that Lisp is fundamentally about being functional. Which is simply not true. It did begin as a notation for studying lambda calculus, but that's not what really made it Lisp 23:39:28 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-195-032.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:39:36 you can have a Lisp that's functional. But you can also have one that isn't. CL is a very good example of the latter 23:39:37 can be very useful to write macros functionally 23:39:49 can be very useful to write code functionally 23:40:06 yeah i just mean from readability standpoint 23:40:09 that doesn't mean CL is a functional language. It's called "multiparadigm" for a reason 23:40:49 i think imperative lisp is kind of a waste 23:40:51 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 23:43:27 drats, i don't even know how to ask my question 23:43:29 :) 23:43:52 just say a few keywords and i'll put it into the googlemachine 23:43:57 ;) 23:44:15 i googled already a little bit 23:44:25 keywords are "lisp realtime" 23:44:38 like embedded systems? 23:45:03 not really. more like deterministic runtime guarantees 23:45:21 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:22 i guess embedded systems would be a good use though 23:45:36 tapas: what is your question though? 23:45:43 i'm a lisp noob, so i don't know whether all my assumptions are false or even worse than false.. 23:45:47 ok here we go: 23:45:48 or rather, what is the goal you want to further by asking it? 23:46:33 learning whether it's possible e.g. to use lisp for realtime audio processing 23:46:39 yeah 23:46:42 tapas: yes. 23:46:43 google impromptu 23:46:54 tapas: yes 23:46:57 or i think there's another one 23:47:15 cl library does audio processing 23:47:19 someone was posting about it to Franz's (I believe) mailing list not very long ago 23:47:28 hmm, mac only? 23:47:37 i'm not so much looking for any finished product 23:47:44 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Lisp_Music 23:48:16 smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:17 i honestly don't know if that is real time though 23:48:17 it was about improving floating point performance 600x by being careful with types, but the bottom line was he was using CL as the processing station for real-time DSP 23:48:33 ok, in CML they did something "similar" to supercollider 23:49:18 mathrick: that sounds cool 23:49:23 one definition of realtime would be that it is possible to give upper bounds for the execution time of code 23:49:37 tapas: I'm not aware of any Lisp giving hard RT guarantees, but many/most will be well-behaved enough for soft RT 23:49:51 ok 23:50:09 basically, you can predict what will be consing, and if you are careful with that, you're in the green 23:50:27 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:50:40 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:42 hmm 23:51:39 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 23:51:44 slava: shorten how? 23:52:07 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:52:25 then i wonder: what would a LISP type language have to look like so that implementations can give hard RT guarantees 23:52:59 tapas: you just need to know how much consing each function does. 23:53:16 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Client Quit] 23:53:24 runtime garauntees 23:53:41 tapas: I can guarantee that each instruction will execute in at most 1 second with p=1 - 10^-50 ish. 23:54:11 there was a henry baker article about a fully destructive version of lisp 23:54:22 no garbage 23:54:35 because you destroy everything every time you touch it 23:54:40 tapas: *Lisp, not LISP :) 23:54:46 hmm 23:54:49 pkhuong: suppose you have 4 instructions which produce 4 values, followed by 4 instructions that use each value in turn 23:55:03 pkhuong: depending on how you arrange them, you need either 4 registers or 1 23:55:04 JAS415: link? 23:55:07 'why do i destroy everything i touch' 23:55:08 sure 23:55:24 http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ 23:55:30 'look ma no garbage' 23:55:31 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:55:59 otherwise known as linearlisp 23:56:41 slava: how often does that happen with copy/assignment prop that gives larger expressions to the compiler? 23:56:42 tapas: you could probably look at Java-RT to get an idea. Basically, you need to give guarantees that a GC run won't take more than X ms, will be able to recover at least Y storage and that A, B & C don't cons 23:57:07 yeah 23:57:13 or that there is no garbage 23:57:14 pkhuong: well, copy propagation makes live ranges longer. I'm just proposing moving instructions that define values closer to their first use, within a basic block 23:57:27 ok thanks. now i have some reading to do :) 23:57:29 pkhuong: I'll implement something and compare the number of spills/reloads generated with and without and let you know :) 23:58:01 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-123.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:58:10 i'm pretty sure henry baker is the man 23:58:40 linear lisp is not practical though 23:59:05 slava: copy prop would move the producer next to at least one consumer -> smaller live ranges. I don't see how it can make live ranges longer (given SSA colouring) 23:59:20 why not slava?