00:00:04 -!- Adlai is now known as Adlai-AWAY 00:00:24 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:01:03 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-76-115-73-70.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:02:14 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590f8b52.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:02:38 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 00:04:02 -!- Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:04:16 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-0-83.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:05:23 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 00:08:12 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-112-213.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:56 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has quit [] 00:12:10 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 00:12:19 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-53-50.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:14:22 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 00:15:22 -!- antoszka_ [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:17:30 -!- masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:20:42 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-36-129.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:24:01 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:24:14 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-jlxopjpmzlktpwvl] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:25:24 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-50-13.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:27:39 -!- vandemar [i=holy@2001:470:1f10:56b:0:0:0:4] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:29:32 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:29:39 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p9035-ipngn101marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:30:30 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-114-236.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:32 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 00:31:41 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:41 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:31:54 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:32:46 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 00:34:20 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-112-213.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:35:51 vandemar [i=bella@2001:470:1f10:56b:0:0:0:4] has joined #lisp 00:36:21 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 00:39:20 jao [n=jao@21.Red-83-43-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:03 pizdets [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:07 -!- pizdets [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:43:14 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:45:36 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 00:45:47 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has quit [] 00:46:45 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:52:12 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:38 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 00:56:48 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:01:42 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-215-032.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:05:03 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 01:07:13 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-216-117.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:42 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:11:58 Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #lisp 01:12:02 prxq_ [n=mommer@e179217247.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 01:14:26 -!- kmels-ZzZ is now known as kmels 01:16:16 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:15 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:43 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 01:21:59 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:37 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:25:30 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-114-236.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:25:39 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:26:05 -!- prxq [n=mommer@g228000008.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:26:55 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:32:04 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:34:22 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:54 lacrymology [n=lacrymol@6-64-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 01:35:16 -!- nanobit [i=tsinamle@gw.pulsar-zone.net] has quit ["bye"] 01:35:51 nanobit [i=edargisr@gw.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:18 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-24-171.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:36:57 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:39:25 paip is pretty good 01:40:05 only about 80 pages 01:40:11 in 01:40:30 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:40:47 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:41:27 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:18 Adlai-AWAY: Word as 16bits is just braindamage of dealing only with 16bit 8086&clones 01:44:23 -!- ausente is now known as idle 01:44:40 -!- idle is now known as Dr_Pacheco 01:44:55 a byte isn't 8 bits 01:45:25 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:09 nowadays it is. 01:48:04 err, what other number of bits has a byte ever been famous for? 01:48:10 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:48:10 7 01:48:53 once upon a time, 7-bit byte was quite normal 01:49:07 Axioplase: Not 8 on 36, 18 or 42 bit machines, that's for sure. 01:49:35 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 01:49:49 pkhuong: well, those are hardly "famous" 01:49:59 byte = n-bit quantity. Some computers had instructions operating on variable-length bytes 01:50:07 lacrymology: 36bit was rather famous 01:50:14 hum. As far as I know, byte translates to "octet" in my mother tongue, and I have trouble thinking of a 7 bits OCTet... 01:50:20 lacrymology: they certainly were famous back when C was born. 01:50:32 Axioplase: french, right? 01:50:44 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:50:53 weird people anyways. Old non-power-of-two-computators, not the French =) 01:50:55 Axioplase: octet is both correct and more precise in english also (: 01:51:12 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:51:22 lacrymology: not that weird. Weird was 60bit 01:51:40 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:50 or decimal 01:52:03 gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 01:52:15 p_l: yup. 01:52:36 36bit was quite nice 01:53:13 fixed-point arithmetic :3 01:54:59 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.202.11] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:55:40 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-127-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:05 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:30 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-24-171.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 01:56:44 ok 01:57:19 I've been trying to go on with PCL for a long while, and I'm failing. I think I need a new approach 01:57:29 and well, CONS structure, CAR and CDR are possibly related to 36bitness xD 01:59:30 variable byte lenght must've been fun for data portability 01:59:34 I'm trying to do something I should think is quite simple like letting me define some dependencies, so it will compile automatically, and I think I'm failing at the very basis of the idea 01:59:54 the whole "file is a stream of bytes" thing comes down crashing once you can't agree on what a "byte" is 01:59:57 end-ness is enough of a pain nowadays.. 02:00:14 lacrymology: yeah, but that can be managed in a predictable way at least 02:00:18 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:23 mathrick: that's from where different transfer modes in FTP come 02:00:37 oh, never thought about it 02:01:01 but the ASCII mode is hardly a solution, given it's almost always wrong 02:01:02 network transfer was standardised on octets, with CRLF line endings and iirc big-endian encoding 02:01:23 wait, you mean that == endianness or different byte size now? 02:01:39 mathrick: ascii mode is for text files, obviously. binary mode means "transfer unchanged", also started on some clients as "twenex mode" 02:01:51 though twenex mode might switch on some other weird stuff 02:02:10 still, it's kind of depressing when you think about translating a 10-byte file to a system with 36-bit bytes 02:02:16 and realise it can't be done 02:02:40 p_l: I know, but data munging is usually not a good idea 02:03:00 this is very basic, and asked something very similar a couple days ago, but then I thought I'd understood the answer, but now I can't put it to work, so now that I'm hands-on the whole thing, I'll ask again. 02:03:07 as for portable files - either define your file as stream of octet-multiplies (as those fit on every machine that could run any sensible networking) or use text coding 02:03:16 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-24-171.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:03:20 So I'm going through PCL, and I downloaded the source code to ~/projects/PCL/ 02:03:29 Adamant [n=Adamant@66.213.192.210] has joined #lisp 02:03:41 p_l: you can't fit 8-bit multiples in a 36-bit word 02:03:49 and I want the thing to be loaded and compiled easy.. 02:04:06 *plies 02:04:15 mathrick: thats why there were instructions to do variable-length load-stores :) 02:04:21 *easily*? 02:04:31 lacrymology: I was correcting myself 02:04:39 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-33-176.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:42 mathrick: I was correcting myself as well 02:05:20 p_l: it's not about load-stores, but the fact that 36 bits is 4.5 8-bit bytes. No matter how smart your load-stores are, you can't get around the fact the files will be of different length 02:05:52 mathrick: ldb and dpb are directly based on instructions that were used for that 02:06:14 mathrick: also, portable (between cpu models, that is) Alpha code cannot access 8 and 16bit values either 02:06:36 what does it have? 02:06:38 64 bit? 02:06:51 mathrick: 64bit registers and 32/64bit load-store 02:07:02 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:07:08 lacrymology: so you use the ASDF definitions provided 02:07:13 lacrymology: do you know how to do that? 02:07:39 mathrick: nopes. And I'd like to learn to set them up myself 02:07:54 I'm not sure if alignment other than 64bit was allowed, but I think it had 32bit load/store instructions (8 and 16bit were added later as extension) 02:07:56 mathrick: sure you can read arbitrary record widths, you just have to shift some stuff around. Much simpler than a huffman decoder. 02:08:12 lacrymology: OK. Linux/Unix or windows? 02:08:36 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:36 Linux 02:09:10 pkhuong: I have a file that is 4 bytes long on an x86. Where do I get the extra 4 bits to put it in a file on a system with 36-bit bytes? 02:09:28 mathrick: you don't. Who said you have to put them in? 02:09:35 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:09:54 p_l: the fact the bits are there. You have to put them in, or do some special bookkeeping to note they aren't there 02:10:18 if you don't give them any value, they will have a random garbage in them 02:10:20 Or you just add padding. You have a length field or a terminator anyway. 02:10:35 mathrick: also, the readme says that I can throw symlinks to the asd files into a directory, and load that, but I'd rather do something like a file at PCL/ that loads each subdir, or something like that 02:10:40 mathrick: you do special bookkeeping, as in "we know the file is a stream of octets". Also, file storage =/= machine register length 02:10:42 It's not like you can store 4 bytes on a HD sector either. 02:10:43 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:45 lacrymology: then you just need to symlink the .asd files to your ASDF registry. Using SBCL? 02:11:07 yes 02:11:12 lacrymology: nah, that's actually the hard way, you want symlinks 02:11:20 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:11:33 lacrymology: okay, then just go to ~/projects/PCL, and run this: 02:12:18 spacebat1 [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-12-129.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:25 mathrick: I know it's harder, but it's the way I'd do it if I was working on lisp. what if I have a number of projects, and I only want one of them, and it's dependencies loaded? I'd just like to learn to do that, it sounds quite.. basic project management, no? 02:12:59 lacrymology: you make an ASDF system and link it to your ASDF registry :) 02:13:06 but that's been done already 02:14:09 you know you lost me there, right? 02:14:21 lacrymology: find $PWD -iname "*.asd" | while read i; do ln -s "$i" ~/.sbcl/systems; done 02:14:28 run that in ~/projects/PCL 02:14:37 lacrymology: .asd files are ASDF system definitions 02:14:57 they tell ASDF about the project's components and dependencies 02:15:33 in order for ASDF to be able to find the definitions, they need to be in the ASDF registry, and there are two ways to put them there: 02:16:04 1) add the containing dirt to asdf:*central-registry* 2) symlink the .asd files to a dir already in the registry 02:16:07 mathrick: that is some of the wackiest shell i ever seen. 02:16:22 you're on linux, so you can go with 2), the easy route 02:16:42 Xach: wow, true (: 02:16:44 Xach: howso? It's simply portable and has fairly low chances of breaking 02:16:50 srcerer_ [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 02:17:03 mathrick: but that'd leave them loaded for everytime I run slime or whatever 02:17:03 I said find $PWD to make sure he ends up with absolute paths 02:17:09 lacrymology: untrue 02:17:27 how so? 02:17:30 lacrymology: that just means ASDF is able to find them. It won't load them until you tell it to 02:17:41 by either loading them explicitly, or something else that depends on them 02:17:51 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-216-117.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:18:07 lacrymology: the same way your word documents don't make your XP sluggish just by sitting on your disk :) 02:18:20 (it's hard to make people understand that one) 02:18:29 mathrick: but they do =P 02:18:37 mathrick: -exec or at least -print0 and xargs -0. 02:18:42 skeptoma` [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has joined #lisp 02:19:04 mathrick: yeah, that'd break like hell with bad filenames, I think. WIth spaces or the such 02:19:05 pkhuong: xargs would work without -0 if not for the fact I need the variable argument first, not last 02:19:17 lacrymology: that's why "$i" 02:19:23 -!- skeptoma` [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:19:37 you're unlikely to have .asd files with names containing \n 02:19:40 =) 02:20:00 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-147-125.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:03 ok, so that's done now 02:20:27 pkhuong: and I didn't use -exec because I can never remember its idiotic syntax and all the escaping rules, unlike | while read 02:20:29 cp2_ [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 02:21:03 overall, shell sucks. The part I hate most is how you need to add/remove quoting when you move code into a function 02:21:21 and the general insolvability of the "pass this as an argument" problem 02:21:44 lacrymology: good, now you should have them all visible 02:21:50 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:21:57 srcerer__ [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 02:22:21 lacrymology: in slime, in an empty repl, press , (comma), and type load-system as the command. Then see if it can complete "practicals" as the system name 02:23:27 -!- blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:23:33 wait, what, why does practicals.asd REQUIRE aserve? Why on Earth would a defsystem need that? 02:23:54 mathrick: one of the chapters uses aserve 02:24:21 and probably was destined to run under ACL anyway ;-) 02:24:26 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-33-176.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:24:28 wakeup_vanuber [n=wakeup@koln-5d817b0b.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 02:24:41 p_l: but it does (require :aserve) *inside the practicals.asd* 02:24:51 which is just silly 02:24:52 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:53 interesting 02:25:21 mathrick: yeay, it worked 02:25:46 lacrymology: good, now you can just ,load-system each chapter 02:25:51 oh, wait 02:25:53 Don't know how to REQUIRE ASERVE. [Condition of type SB-INT:EXTENSION-FAILURE] 02:26:02 yeah, that's what I mentioned 02:26:08 I need to install that? 02:26:12 lacrymology: remove the line (require :aserve) in practicals.asd 02:26:40 it will still break when you get to the chapter that actually needs aserve, but you really don't need it now 02:26:51 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 02:26:52 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:26:56 lacrymology: and you can just load then piece-meal as you go 02:27:00 no need to load everything 02:27:09 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:27:19 it's better to code it up yourself as you read the chapter instead of relying on the ready code anyway 02:27:53 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:02 I found it very educational to code up a solution based on each chapter's introduction and the stated goal, and compare it with Peter's solution afterwards 02:28:31 mathrick: I know, I've done that up to chap 15 02:28:39 good 02:28:42 but now chap 23 needs stuff from the past chapters 02:29:04 and I find myself loading each chapter's file by hand 02:29:48 that, and I lost what I'd done 02:29:52 aww 02:29:57 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-119.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:59 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:31:47 so now that I'm at the spam filter thing, I'll just load it, open the .lisp file and kill and retype the whole thinng 02:32:08 lacrymology: http://constantly.at/lisp/asdf/ <-- read that to learn how to define your own systems 02:32:12 -!- spacebat1 [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-12-129.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 02:32:40 damn, sbcl's compiler is verbose! 02:33:01 that's a good thing 02:33:17 with slime, you don't have to read it all, but you can still catch the things it warns you about 02:33:23 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:33:44 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:34:41 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 02:35:32 mathrick: when you don't get any notes, warnings etc. it means you do well ;-) 02:36:29 exactly :) 02:36:42 -!- wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d815828.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:36:56 that, or you're not compiling with (optimize speed) 02:37:23 Demosthenes [n=demo@66.235.80.184] has joined #lisp 02:37:53 I'm probably not. This took ages, and lots of processor 02:38:27 -!- srcerer_ [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:43:07 lacrymology: (optimize speed) takes more time and CPU to compile :) 02:43:16 it means "optimise for the resulting code's speed" 02:43:39 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has quit ["Leaving! http://kmels.net"] 02:43:54 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:44:40 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:46:24 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-182-124.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:16 I know, I realized that when I reread, but oh well 02:49:41 :'( C-c C-q is undefined, emacs says 02:50:06 it's like I'm just not meant to.. 02:50:25 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:52:48 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-147-125.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:54:43 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-119.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:55:01 C-c C-q being what? 02:55:18 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:26 close parenthesis 02:55:41 it used to be anyways 02:56:24 antoszka_ [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 02:57:18 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:57:42 I probably broke something in my .emacs 02:58:18 That's C-c C-] now. 02:58:51 mgm [n=mgm@p84-72.acedsl.com] has joined #lisp 02:59:32 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-134.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:00:05 now why the hell would they change something like that? THanks a lot 03:00:13 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:00:17 you saved my ) key some serious strain =P 03:00:46 minion: paredit 03:00:46 paredit: a set of Emacs commands, with a minor mode for convenient access to them, for editing balanced S-expressions and a number of higher-level operations on S-expressions, at ; see also the #paredit channel 03:00:48 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:05 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:01:13 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:01:37 Many people use that minor mode. Since it helps you manipulate s-exps, you rarely have to make sure parentheses are balanced. 03:01:42 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:56 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:12 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 03:11:44 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 03:14:18 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-119.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:10 girzel [n=user@61.51.238.208] has joined #lisp 03:21:44 pstickne__ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:09 jlf [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-82.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:23:31 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:24:29 jchicas [n=jchicas@138smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 03:25:06 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@138smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit [Client Quit] 03:31:45 skeptomai [n=cb@c-98-225-17-169.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:31 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:21 rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 03:38:06 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.26.200] has joined #lisp 03:38:32 greetings! let me just spill my guts out and hope somebody out there debugs my thoughts :-) 03:39:55 we have a huge database driven app, and half of the database tables we don't even know yet. i wrapped up CLSQL's table and record creation functionality and exposed it to the site admins and people of the "ring" in the ACL 03:40:17 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-172-237.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:34 I needed to generate input validators at the same time, both for the web forms, and possibly for the local GUI 03:41:06 what I did was create a generic function, VALID-INPUT-P that dispatches on the EQL type of its first argument 03:42:18 I thought of doing something like (defmethod valid-input-p ((type '(eql :number))) (match-regex "\\d+")) 03:42:20 hold brb 03:43:01 fusss: a regex is massive(ly inefficient) overkill for that kind of validation. 03:45:33 back 03:45:39 yeah, that's what i was thinking 03:47:03 right now I have validation closures, just a map between names and a one-argument function. (setf (gethash 'numer *validators*) #'(lambda (x) (and (not (zerop (length x)) (ever #'digit-char-p x))) 03:47:15 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-119.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:43 the validator name is shown to the user next every record they add, they see a drop-down list of NUMBER, NAME, USADDRESS, USPHONE, etc. 03:48:45 what I am really thinking of is exposing yet another functionality to add their own validators in some kind of algebriac DSL. VB Script or a subset of PHP or something less "internally" than Lisp. 03:49:00 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 03:49:05 -!- pstickne__ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:49:18 I have *show-lisp-errors* set and they're already sick of running into a backtrace in the middle of their daily experience. 03:50:13 *fusss* just realized he can log lisp errors just fine without showing them to the user 03:50:13 hmmm 03:50:47 dude dont overoptimize before its not needed. regexp are fi 03:51:00 ne for validating 03:51:12 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:51:43 mgm: regexes gave me pain personally. i keep falling back to the parse-tree synatx of cl-ppcre. let's just say I am not *good* with them. 03:53:14 skeptoma` [n=cb@c-98-225-17-169.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:17 i think i will stick to the VALID-METHOD-P generic function and just fill the validators table like crazy; what I found hard was convincing them a certain record was NOT of the type they thought it was. 03:53:47 people choosing DATE when in fact they meant a DURATION, etc. or choosing string for time. 03:53:47 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@c-98-225-17-169.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:55:48 fusss: for validations DSL, why not S-exps that are then compiled into lisp? I think PAIP had few examples (well, PAIP contains complete scheme&prolog compilers with some optimizations, but well...) 03:55:49 as for the method with eql vs hashtable, its basically the same functionality wise, defmethod is a bit more flexible 03:57:06 btw, fusss, could I pick your brain a little with regards to targeted ads, or did you just "code it up"? :D 03:57:41 p_l: I just coded it up last year, wasn't paid for it, and my employers faught over the office furniture. 03:57:58 ...lol? 03:58:09 but i worked with professional marketers and data munchers, if that's what you're asking 03:58:44 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.5.233] has joined #lisp 03:59:48 Well, I have this webapp that is basically a directory of student-oriented accommodation + value added stuff (things like affiliation with energy supplier comparison website etc.) and we are considering using various types of ads as another source of income (for example, "booklet with info on your new home" that might include various venues close to chosen place) 03:59:54 Howdy all. 04:00:02 wgl: hi 04:00:16 How are you this evening? 04:00:38 *p_l* is somehow fine, except its 0458 here, so the night is lost 04:00:48 Ah, then good morning to you. 04:01:04 fusss: I was thinking of storing all kinds of "tracking" data in separate, non-relational database (maybe TokyoCabinet) 04:01:24 -!- skeptoma` [n=cb@c-98-225-17-169.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:01:30 skeptomai [n=cb@c-98-225-17-169.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:32 p_l: I can give you an account where you can upload your own banners, but unless your users speak arabic, none of the ads i have will be of interest to them. you might want to source your own advertiers :-( 04:02:01 fusss: I was more interested in your implementation, though thanks for the offer :) 04:02:24 take a look at OpenX, it's cheesy but it does work 04:02:26 Perhaps a floating-point question will clear the condition. I am working with sbcl and reading numbers generated by an external program and would like to have these numbers be nice double-floats. So i get a nice "1e-4" and coerce it to double and get something inexact. 04:02:35 like, how do you store data on user for tracking&analysis purpose 04:02:59 there various things to an ad server, the targeting engine can extremely sophisticated, or it can be an stupid round-robin scheduler that rotates between your assets. 04:04:06 fusss: we will have geographic data associated with what user is looking at, so it won't be round robin... I was however thinking of how to store users history 04:04:36 If I substitute "d" for "e", then I get what I want. I am using read-from-string to inhale the string as a floating point. 04:04:39 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 04:04:53 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:04:57 *p_l* suspects that he doesn't make much sense right now 04:05:06 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-175-89.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 04:05:09 p_l: banner ads are images, and they're stored in the file system, for now; i was running 20+ hunchentoot images working hard. my test version now uses lighthttpd and X-Sendfile. Lighty will send you an incoming request, you compute the apporpriate banner and you tell lightty to serve up banner334232.gif; lighty does the actual file transfer. hunchentoot is then reduced to a glorfied REPL... 04:05:10 ...for a solver. 04:05:33 So my question is 1) is there a better way to get a string to double-float, and if read-from-string is the answer, how do I avoid "1e-4" becoming "9.9999999d-5"? 04:06:03 fusss: so, you don't run actual calculations etc.? 04:06:06 p_l: you can store the user's history, or you can let incoming requests trigger an state change (an FSM) and viola, zero "memory" ;-) 04:06:33 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:42 haha 04:07:06 The scheme I have in my mind right now doesn't require tracking users, but boss is somehow insistent :D 04:08:00 p_l: we're spread geographically over 30+ countries and we have very small total traffic, it makes perfect sense for us to do heavy local targeting. you have 50 or so "categories", and each state transition has a probability weight. after the first few requests we probably have a good idea of what you're looking for, however, a random change in interest would trigger a reset. 04:09:09 think of it as a glorified trie data structure; it usually takes 2-4 characters to zoom down on one word. 04:09:26 ah. I guess my case is rather different :-) I'll just dump some tracking solution working beside my own schema just in case they want that data for something 04:10:28 you can always recover that from the logs; maintain a per-user log. if you have a user session, you can also direct all the user's traffic to a particular hunchentoot instance 04:10:40 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:10:46 alright, no more "mind picking" p_l ;-) 04:11:00 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-134.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:11:05 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-134.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:11:10 ok, fusss-shishou :P 04:14:42 -!- antoszka_ [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:14:45 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 04:17:12 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:17:54 Quadrescence [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #lisp 04:19:17 *p_l* had a look at some new GWT apps and wonders if one could do a CLIM-like library for it 04:20:17 Is there a recommended way to read floating point from a string or stream as is done for integers by parse-integer? 04:21:23 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-119.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:21:26 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-119.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:22:12 wgl: parse-float, i think 04:22:35 http://www.cliki.net/PARSE-NUMBER 04:23:18 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 04:23:29 chavo_ [n=user@c-76-17-212-158.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:04 http://www.cliki.net/ieee-floats 04:25:19 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-112-40.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:27:40 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.5.233] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:29:46 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:49 -!- Dr_Pacheco [n=user7994@187.34.44.222] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:34:43 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:34:48 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-76-17-212-158.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:43:30 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 04:45:18 well this is just dead sexy, http://www.cliki.net/Binary-types 04:45:56 Tordek [n=tordek@host136.190-230-89.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 04:47:29 cute, overengineered. 04:48:36 i have been using xach's bit streams to recover "records" manually 04:50:26 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:50:57 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:42 Quadre` [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #lisp 04:55:57 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 04:58:27 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 05:00:35 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:00:58 -!- cmm [n=cmm@79.176.59.31] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:01:10 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-59-31.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:54 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:03:02 Good morning. 05:05:18 ykphuah [i=dd85268a@gateway/web/freenode/session] has joined #lisp 05:06:43 using CLOS, I have a class named "foo" and I also want to create a generic function called "foo" to access the element inside the "bar" type, but I can't, how to solve this? call the generic function get-foo or foo-of? 05:07:03 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:08:27 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:08:53 ykphuah: class names and gf names live in different name spaces 05:09:37 typically, to ass a slot in side class bar, you if all you want is a "getter", you can ask for it with the :reader initarg 05:09:45 -!- Quadre` is now known as Quadrescence 05:10:39 (defclass bar () ((name :reader bar-name))) and clos would generate the method BAR-NAME for you. If you want to call it FOO instead of BAR-NAME, then you're free to do so :reader FOO, etc. 05:11:14 my second sentence above made absolutely no sense. 05:11:23 fusss: so its usually better to call the accessor "bar-name" instead of just "name"? 05:12:19 Well, is a person-name the same as a part-name? 05:12:31 If the answer is yes, then there's no need to distinguish them. 05:12:38 accessors are generic functions, so there's no problem with using the same one for mutiple classes 05:12:38 it's just a convention. bar-name is easy to remember, and if you ever wrap defclass with another macro, you would difinately need an accessor generation scheme. CLASSNAME-SLOTNAME is also the default accessor generation scheme used by DEFSTRUCT. 05:13:02 class-slot accessors are more explicit but can make code more verbose or less flexible than it could be 05:13:48 ykphuah: the full signature of BAR-NAME is (defmethod BAR-NAME ((obj BAR))) and its body is (SLOT-VALUE obj 'bar) 05:15:26 fusss: you meant (SLOT-VALUE obj 'name) 05:15:38 yes :-) 05:15:47 *fusss* programs by autocompletion 05:16:41 hmm, I just tested the code in clisp, looks lime my initial problem is with EIEIO, not with CLOS. :P 05:16:59 s/lime/like 05:17:19 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:41 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-127-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:48 ykphuah: Either way, the reason people don't use the same name for the slot and the accessor is so as to avoid having client code think it can safely do (slot-value mumble 'name). 05:17:59 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:18:05 but naming it bar-foo will solve my initial problem, but I prefer it just to be "foo" so I can call "foo child-of-bar", instead of "bar-foo child-of-bar" 05:19:08 ykphuah: In order to distinguish the two names, there are several possibilities. The traditional one is to rename the accessor to foo-name. A more recent one is to rename it name-of. My personal preference is to rename the slot to %name, because the `%' is traditionally used to indicate "danger". 05:20:07 ykphuah: In order to access the slot directly, client code would have to do (slot-value foo 'package::%name) which has both `::' and `%', which should be a clear signal of a problem. 05:20:21 man, hacker news is so slow to load 05:22:10 ykphuah: And I agree with the problem you indicate above. In CLIM for instance, it is strange to use (sheet-parent pane) rather than just (parent pane). 05:22:48 beach: get-name or name-of both looks ugly. :P 05:23:17 name>> :-) 05:23:19 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:20 ykphuah: get-name certainly (because of (setf (get-name ...) ..). name-of a bit less so. 05:23:55 alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:08 hmm, eieio creates a "foo" function when I do a defclass foo, strange 05:25:36 Perhaps as a constructor? 05:26:12 tcr: CLOS doesn't create that right? 05:27:03 CLOS has MAKE-INSTANCE 05:27:35 *ykphuah* is scanning through eieio.el now, which is supposed to be a clone of CLOS 05:27:37 ykphuah: No, CLOS doesn't do that. But I can see a point of eieio wishing to do so for optimization purposes. 05:28:00 the construction of an object has various stages and CLOS allows you to plug into. EIEIO must be doing something like defstruct 05:28:16 CLOS implementation usually recognize (make-instance 'constant-class-name ...) not to go through runtime lookup etc. 05:29:00 I would be surprised if any CLOS clone was actually a full CLOS clone. They all stop at somewhere safe. 05:29:00 so now its the constructor "foo" that is preventing me from creating an accessor of the same name 05:29:06 I'm not sure how easily you can get that in Elisp where you don't have compiler-macros. Perhaps via the advise facility, but that sounds like a hack. 05:30:05 fusss: changing the instance of an existing object is probably something nobody else does 05:31:44 Does factor? 05:31:53 no 05:31:58 slava: The instance? 05:32:04 beach: the class, sorry 05:32:07 class of an instance he means, i guess 05:32:10 yeah 05:32:35 Oh, I thought you were talking about updating an instance after class redefition 05:32:42 no, I do that 05:32:44 I'm talking about this 05:32:47 clhs change-class 05:32:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_chg_cl.htm 05:32:54 where the program changes the class of an instance 05:33:09 Just wondering because I read you also properly update call-sites on function redefinition. 05:33:11 and such a win. I recently added column to a mysql table via the mysql shell. i went back to my lisp buffer trying to reset the variables i was playing with. Did a RECONNECT and, i kid you not, clsql add a slot for the new colum IN the already bound variables. WIN. 05:33:45 tcr: updates after redefinition don't have to be fast so they can do a heap traversal 05:34:05 tcr: updating an individual instance requires breaking each object up into two parts, the head and the slot vector 05:34:14 tcr: so that you can replace the slot vector later 05:34:21 a lot of languages support that, no? thought mostly languages where everything is a hashtable 05:34:55 it also prevents optimization of the form (let ((x (make-instance 'foo))) (blah x) (typep x 'foo)) ; can't fold typep since blah might have changed the class of x 05:35:20 jsnell: even with real objects its pretty straightforward to implement if you don't mind scanning the entire heap when slots are added or removed 05:35:48 sure, that's how smalltalk become: is typically implemented iirc 05:35:53 yeah 05:35:57 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 05:36:11 in old smalltalks with an object table, you just change the table entry 05:36:46 just noting that change-class analogs are actually supported all over the place. it's just that it's not considered as bad style in CL 05:36:57 Dylan, iirc, reported considerable success in keeping the class and the object entirely separate, and just keeping associations where necessary. 05:37:12 jsnell: CL typically implements efficient change-class for a single object 05:37:13 while if you go doing foo.__class__ = Bar in Python, people will probably be unhappy with you 05:37:22 jsnell: others don't try to make it efficient 05:37:37 So you'd have something like a class-instance coupling object, which could tell you the class of an instance in the most generic case. 05:38:04 slava: fair enough 05:38:10 But if you had a container of elements of class-foo, or you passed it to something only accepting a particular class, then you could leave it off. 05:38:49 I thought that was a fairly cool approach. 05:39:07 _Trickster_ [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has joined #lisp 05:39:38 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:39:39 Zhivago: doesn't this representation increase GC overhead and cache contention though? 05:39:39 at least in CL, you also have structs, conses, and other types which don't need split representation. 05:39:56 mlak [i=4c70bb42@gateway/web/freenode/session] has joined #lisp 05:40:07 Zhivago: oh, you mean passing the class-instance coupling by value? 05:40:15 Zhivago: ie, tagged pointers with word-size tags? 05:40:24 -!- dmiles_akf [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:40:30 Zhivago: IIRC some dylan implementations did that, also Lua does something similar I believe 05:40:43 Well, like a special cons of (class . instance) 05:40:47 Yeah, that's what I said :p 05:41:10 What they found was that in most cases they could just use instance. 05:41:29 They could delegate the responsibility for keeping the class to some interface specification. 05:41:31 sucks, eieio will anyhow create a constructor, that's bad. 05:44:22 (defun destroy (a) (setf a nil)) (defparameter a "hello") (destroy a) <- why does evaluating a afterwards give "hello" ? 05:44:51 You mutated the local binding of a. 05:44:59 CL passes object references by value. 05:45:30 how can I get the desired effect? 05:45:46 what are you really trying to do? 05:45:49 -!- mlak [i=4c70bb42@gateway/web/freenode/session] has left #lisp 05:45:50 Use a macro? Pass 'a and use set? 05:46:10 drafael: (defun destroy (a) (setf a nil)) is a no-op 05:46:34 I have a function that whittles down a list and returns the values extracted from this whittling 05:46:45 it removes a bit of the list each time 05:46:48 you can just use remove-if-not for that 05:46:53 clhs remove-if-not 05:46:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm 05:47:13 I don't think I can actually 05:47:27 it's a bit more complicated 05:47:47 anyway, it works fine until it has to set the argument list to nil 05:48:03 at this point, the argument is no longer set properly and keeps it's old value 05:48:21 fuss:Thanks 05:49:20 you could write it using multiple value returns 05:49:46 yeah, I suppose I could go back to doing that actually 05:51:31 hooray 05:52:43 slava: I guess Haskell's dictionaries are similar in that the type tag is a full word. 05:55:19 pkhuong: so without lifetime range splitting, if a value is spilled in graph coloring then every usage reloads and every definition spills? 05:57:09 -!- |Trickster| [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:57:09 Usually, I believe. It's not *too* hard to be smarter within individual basic block, even without live range splits. 06:00:13 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:03:10 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:07:50 cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:09:30 did someone say there were language implementations that used word-sized tags in the general case? I was fascinated by this idea for a while, but the difficulty of changing a pair of words atomically puts me off it. 06:11:21 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 06:13:43 hefner: nothing additional indirection can't fix (: 06:14:47 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-tgbllwqrzvljbgaz] has joined #lisp 06:15:18 tlm [n=user@h-67-100-54-128.nycmny83.dynamic.covad.net] has joined #lisp 06:17:41 i've installed slime with sbcl on two computers, and on the first i get a *slime-repl sbcl* buffer, but on the other i'm left with only *inferior-lisp*. any ideas? 06:19:39 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 06:20:55 tlm: The other has a more recent slime. You probably have a (slime-setup) line; change that into (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) or at least (slime-setup '(slime-repl)). 06:21:20 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 06:21:30 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #lisp 06:22:50 csaba [n=cgajo@193.189.163.110] has joined #lisp 06:23:48 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:23:50 I've learned scheme at the university some 5 years ago and really liked it, and I'm thinking of giving lisp another go. Is there some IDE for developing real business applications? 06:24:37 I'm asking because scheme worked on ms dos, which I guess is not the case with modern lisp 06:24:55 Do you run real business applications on MS DOS? 06:25:19 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 06:25:32 Or do you want to know if Common Lisp runs on Windows, UNIX and friends? (in which case, yes) 06:25:40 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-59-31.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:25:49 I work on web applications written in java... I'd like to know how to do the same in ,isp 06:25:58 lisp 06:26:20 csaba: Yes, and perhaps check out hunchentoot. 06:26:37 Weblocks, web framework. http://weblocks.viridian-project.de/ 06:26:55 ok thanks 06:27:11 Also UnCommonWeb, but I can't remember its canonical URL. 06:27:41 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:28:09 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest88048 06:29:46 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit ["leaving"] 06:30:04 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:30:09 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 06:31:06 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-172-237.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:32:22 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:32:58 csaba: as for IDE, there's Emacs + SLIME 06:33:19 -!- Guest88048 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 06:33:19 yeah there's probably some plugin for eclipse I guess 06:34:04 pkhuong: thanks! 06:34:18 csaba: there's cusp, but afaik, Emacs with SLIME beat it (it uses cl-side parts of SLIME as well) 06:35:05 list doesn't have objects, right? 06:35:16 casba: What? 06:35:21 I was wondering what this syntax is: 06:35:23 render-widget -> render-widget-body (widget-update-children?) 06:35:37 larry [n=shrek@88.131.67.194] has joined #lisp 06:35:46 csaba: that isn't syntax, that's more like description of some mechanism 06:35:51 ah ok :) 06:36:00 thought I was seeing objects 06:36:12 *sigh* 06:36:17 in this case, a protocol for rendering widgets. method render-widget calls render-widget-body etc. 06:37:20 csaba: you are seeing objects. It's just that Common Lisp Object System (CLOS) does it the other way around - specifying generic methods and then implemeneting class-specific methods 06:37:28 minion: tell csaba about pcl 06:37:32 csaba: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 06:37:52 cool thanks 06:38:24 ok let me ask it like this, do people use lisp for web apps at all, or only for other kind for applications?... hardware etc. 06:39:08 csaba: See hunchentoot, weblocks, etc. 06:39:21 yeah but I mean generally, what do you guys work on? 06:39:28 Whatever we like. 06:39:31 heh 06:39:48 Lisp is general purpose. 06:39:58 csaba: well, people use it for all kinds of stuff, there are also many webapps implemented in lisp or having lisp as part of their implementation (like various services inside). fusss for example did an ad-serving engine 06:40:02 -!- girzel [n=user@61.51.238.208] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:40:20 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:40:27 ok I'll look at these frameworks you gave, thanks :) 06:40:31 he also does some current web-related work, he mentioned something about big database-driven app 06:40:49 csaba: first go through PCL, so you won't get lost in the frameworks :D 06:40:49 good morning 06:41:02 (and sometimes it really feels like it's easier to write one from scratch...) 06:43:14 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:44:43 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:44:58 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:45:01 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 06:45:49 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:46:42 -!- tlm [n=user@h-67-100-54-128.nycmny83.dynamic.covad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:46:49 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 06:58:33 angerman [n=angerman@d051.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 07:02:28 morning 07:03:12 -!- asksol [n=ask@91.208.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:05:41 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 07:12:26 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:13:01 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 07:14:39 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 07:15:33 -!- gz [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:18:31 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 07:18:59 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest93007 07:19:19 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:19:30 -!- ykphuah [i=dd85268a@gateway/web/freenode/session] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 07:20:08 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1F2A.versanet.de] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1"] 07:22:22 benny [n=benny@i577A1F2A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:22:29 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 07:24:04 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@c-98-225-17-169.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:25:14 prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:09 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:31:08 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:34:39 p_l: currently doing something for the medical industry as well 07:35:18 csaba: CL is as good as anything for web development, if that's what you want 07:35:25 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 07:37:17 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:37:33 g'day 07:38:06 hey schmx 07:38:52 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:39:01 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:43:14 csaba: get LispWorks, and http://weitz.de/starter-pack/ 07:43:45 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:43:55 cool, looks helpful 07:44:13 I wasn't able to install the lisp plugin for eclipse, looks like it's not supported in newer versions :( 07:44:27 anyway, I have to work so I'll check this out later 07:45:00 forget about eclipse, get Emacs 07:47:54 hawkbill [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has joined #lisp 07:48:26 Cynner [n=plinka@87.110.228.239] has joined #lisp 07:49:07 mvillene1ve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:49:36 http://www.lostworlds.lv/go.php?1139723800 07:49:38 -!- Cynner [n=plinka@87.110.228.239] has left #lisp 07:50:53 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:50:58 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:51:03 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:52:54 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 07:53:14 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:54:07 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 07:54:28 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:55:02 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:55:17 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:15 masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has joined #lisp 07:59:13 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:59:36 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:02:47 girzel [n=user@123.121.226.146] has joined #lisp 08:04:23 -!- blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:06:07 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:12:58 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:13:33 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@81-174-48-147.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 08:15:02 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-24-171.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 08:16:23 -!- mvillene1ve is now known as mvilleneuve 08:17:13 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 08:20:38 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:22:54 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:27:10 -!- gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:28:26 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 08:29:26 any image conversion library that isn't an FFI? cl-gd is giving me trouble atm 08:29:38 Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 08:30:35 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:32:17 davelambert [n=djl@monoblock.open.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:32:34 Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:33:21 -!- Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 08:33:27 Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:35:18 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:36:19 hawkbill [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has joined #lisp 08:36:21 -!- spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:38:08 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:39:56 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:42:52 Reav___ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 08:43:42 amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 08:45:44 gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 08:47:17 cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has joined #lisp 08:47:36 benny` [n=benny@i577A1775.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:49:47 so imagemagick requires libSM, which apparently is part of Xorg? 08:51:45 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181148156.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:52:24 fusss: yes to the latter 08:52:30 screw this, we're keeping lispbuilder-SDL-image on the server :-P 08:53:16 slava: imagemagick was going to fetch enough of X to run a thinclient. nofanks. 08:53:44 perhaps you can build a version that isn't wired into X11 in unholy ways. 08:53:48 you can compile it wihtout X yourself 08:55:13 lispbuilder-sdl-image is ffi innit? 08:55:23 i am installing the default slackware pacakge, and patrick would never do that 08:55:26 anything good is ffi 08:55:42 CL is ffi, aw yeah. 08:56:24 hefner: to be honest, the functionality i want i am already doing in javascript. just thought it might be better to do it server side for security purposes (resizing a photo before upload) 08:56:40 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 08:57:49 by security purposes, you mean opening your server to attack by vulnerabilities in the image processing code? :) 08:58:31 javascript can resize images now? 08:59:26 javascript does everything now :) 08:59:45 it's the new BASIC 08:59:47 You can rejigger the DOM tree so that the size changes. 09:00:39 that doesn't change the image data though 09:00:56 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1F2A.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:00:59 Yes. You'd want to use a canvas object to do that. 09:01:16 Then you get into the land of 'which browser supports that'. 09:01:41 ah 09:01:47 But, essentially you can render and draw images pretty freely if you can get a canvas. 09:02:33 can you also produce an image file from that canvas? 09:02:53 Yes. 09:03:10 You can also produce one of those urls where you pack the data into the url with it. 09:04:36 Although none of that will be standard until html5 magically appears to save us all. 09:04:45 how do you produce an image file from canvas? 09:05:01 last time i checked, there is only internal snapshot ability 09:05:17 I forget, but I remember using it to produce thumbnails to save to disk. 09:05:22 Let's see. 09:05:59 gz [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 09:06:00 i did a little drawing app with it and basically ended up serializing drawing commands into text 09:06:47 http://www.nihilogic.dk/labs/canvas2image/canvas2image.js claims to do it 09:07:02 hefner: i need to convert the animatable images to one frame. some people can make the first image something benign that passes the eyeball test long enough then rolls to an spam URL or something obscene 09:07:18 Zhivago: interesting, thanks 09:07:49 so it's not in canvas spec itself :) 09:07:54 but doable, i guess 09:08:48 guagua: I believe it's mainly in the toDataURL method. 09:09:58 -!- kefka [n=user@ec2-75-101-205-165.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:10:09 kefka [n=user@ec2-75-101-205-165.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 09:10:23 yeah, it's specified it seems; http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#dom-canvas-todataurl 09:10:43 i wonder why i messed that one 09:11:04 missed, that is :) 09:11:15 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:14:24 -!- davelambert [n=djl@monoblock.open.ac.uk] has left #lisp 09:21:41 -!- angerman [n=angerman@d051.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 09:22:41 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181148156.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:22:43 nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs181148156.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:24:01 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.64.194] has quit [] 09:26:37 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:27:50 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:28:06 cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has joined #lisp 09:29:30 -!- benny` is now known as benny 09:30:10 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:33:31 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229143083.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:33:50 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590f84c6.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 09:35:17 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-150-213.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:47:13 malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:47:46 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-153-169.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:53:28 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:55:20 -!- Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:56:50 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:56:53 angerman [n=angerman@d072.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 10:03:25 Ugh, I've finished the preliminary version of support for overloaded C++ class members to my FFI generator for Ogre. It really doesn't make things prettier :( 10:05:01 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 10:05:14 -!- cp2_ [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:05:49 -!- dmiles [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)"] 10:06:56 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-148-131.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:30 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 10:08:46 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 10:10:54 ufff trivial shell to the rescue 10:11:11 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@89-180-226-162.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 10:11:53 I'm having trouble accepting that anything named "trivial-" can truly come to the rescue. 10:12:12 by no means pretty, but gets the job done. too tired to think about waitpid, decided to fork off a thread to do the image conversion and it gets auto-killed about 10 seconds, just in case. 10:13:19 i am developing on windows and deploying on linux; anything that removes the differences is a win 10:13:34 lol 10:14:23 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 10:14:27 it beats building imagemagic from source, on two platforms with two different lisp and C compilers 10:15:08 pkok [n=patrick@f102140.upc-f.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 10:15:13 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:15:19 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 10:15:34 wouldn't it be easier just to develop on linux and embrace the gloriously simple, nonportable, less-probably-broken lifestyle? 10:16:12 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 10:16:24 no 10:16:28 yes. 10:16:28 :-) 10:16:28 stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:45 hefner, that'd be too simple .. too obvious .. etc. .. so it has to be wrong 10:16:46 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:17:33 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:17:40 yes, I'm probably being terribly naive, as usual. 10:17:42 i just like windows better. never been able to use X long enough to call it home. 10:18:05 you have to make a home. 10:18:31 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:19:31 (and when you do, Gnome, KDE, and the x.org hooligans will be there with bulldozers threatening to push it down in the name of progress.. ;) 10:20:03 i used xfce since 2002 or so, IIRC 10:20:03 still, if you want to pull a reddit, that's your business =D 10:20:29 ah come'on. that's just below the belt. 10:20:29 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:20:48 i could link to a certain reddit-favorite article about deployment issues ;-) 10:22:17 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:22:36 anyway, there is gotta be a better distribution system than handing out shell accounts :-P 10:22:56 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@81-174-48-147.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [] 10:22:57 I'm in a funny anti-CL slump lately. Doing recreational hacking in C. Thought about brushing up on my C++, but just the other day reddit told me that no one uses it anymore. 10:24:13 embrace the horrible future; brush up on your httpd load-balancing, database sharding and jquery-fu 10:24:19 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:24:29 I'd rather eat a bullet 10:25:17 cracki [n=cracki@134.130.183.101] has joined #lisp 10:25:23 MORE C++ 10:25:58 alright, off for sausages and asahi 10:26:12 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.26.200] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.12/2009070611]"] 10:27:42 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:27:55 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 10:32:05 cp2_ [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 10:32:28 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:32:51 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 10:33:15 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:38:02 -!- cp2_ [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:39:59 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:40:10 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 10:40:49 silenius_ [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 10:41:02 -!- silenius_ [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:42:22 -!- housel [n=housel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit ["Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.0.5"] 10:42:30 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:43:25 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:44:13 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 10:45:38 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:34 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:48:41 *nunb* just did hg revert by mistake 10:49:23 Emacs is still open with the buffers, but won't write the files because it thinks they're already written to disk. 10:49:59 heh 10:50:02 move slowly 10:50:43 cp2_ [n=will@69.163.33.38] has joined #lisp 10:50:43 write something in buffer. save. 10:51:15 malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:52:07 yes, speed kills. schmx: will do. 10:53:43 what did i say about null terminated strings being the worst legacy issue ever? http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/07/kaminsky/ 10:55:27 nikodemus`: null terminators can be a real problem 10:55:43 eg, when interfacing between and C, you always have to worry about nulls in strings passed via ffi 10:56:12 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:57:50 yep 10:58:26 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:00:20 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 11:01:03 the meaning of dynamic typed, shouldn't that mean opauqe typed ? 11:01:29 Why would it be opaque? 11:01:31 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-372.yok.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:02:19 I'm thinking of the generated code that handles the type as an input argument. It can only treat it in a static way ( as it is compiled ). 11:02:53 i don't follow at all 11:03:20 What makes it dynamic ? 11:03:35 larry: That it can change. 11:04:08 Zhivago: that data can't change, only the code path we take. 11:04:12 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:04:23 larry: Why can't the types of data that we give something change? 11:06:42 a quick example: (defvar a 1) (defvar b "1") (+ a b) .. in this example the #'+ must be dynamic, not the data itself. 11:06:44 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.226.146] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:06:51 (defun foo (x) (ignore-errors (length x))) (loop repeat 100 collect (foo (aref (vector (list 1 2 3) (vector 'a 'b) "foobar" 42) (random 4)))) 11:06:51 any chance you could unban me in ##c? 11:07:08 Why can't a and b change? 11:07:19 gh7d: Talk privately. 11:07:51 well i'm talking to you 11:08:03 gh7d: This is not an appropriate place. 11:08:42 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:09:05 Zhivago: A true change (for me) would be #'+ asking B to coerce to a number, this without any of that coercsion code in the #'+ body 11:09:29 larry: your definitions are your own, i would say 11:09:59 that is, not shared by the rest of the world 11:10:07 larry: I have no idea what you're talking about. 11:10:17 that makes me unique :) 11:10:50 dynamic language is typically taken to mean a late-bound dynamically typed language 11:10:52 Given that more things are bad than good, being unique simply increases the chance that you are bad. 11:11:40 which is orthogonal from automagic coercions for the most part 11:12:19 larry: Are you familiar with generic functions? 11:12:29 Zhivago: yes 11:12:58 larry: What does adding or removing a method from a generic function do to the type of the function? 11:13:51 Zhivago: It increases or decreases code paths that is taken depending on the type 11:14:43 larry: I did not ask the question that you answered. 11:16:50 Zhivago: Ah, the type of the generic function, not one of the arguments ? 11:16:52 -!- sethen [n=setheus@pool-173-74-124-37.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:16:56 larry: Yes. 11:17:19 I havn't thought that it had one. 11:17:31 What do you think a type is? 11:18:42 description of how the data is stored, I think 11:19:05 That is what we would call a class. 11:19:27 Perhaps you might like to review the basic literature of types so that you can use the same vocabulary as everyone else? 11:19:53 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 11:21:37 anything recommended ? 11:21:45 -!- Guest93007 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 11:23:04 Hmm, dunno. Read liberally. 11:23:29 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [] 11:23:52 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 11:24:13 malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:25:10 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:25:52 The McClim User's Manual says, "If you use CMUCL or SBCL, you either need a core file that already has McCLIM in it, or else, you have to load the McCLIM compiled files" How do I know if my core file contains McClim? 11:28:03 lat: it doesn't, unless you created a core containing mcclim yourself. 11:28:05 if you didn't specifically make one, it doesn't 11:28:21 (find-package :clim) ; if you are really in doubt 11:28:37 (find-package :clim) 11:28:49 (require :asdf) (require :mcclim) ; assuming asdf knows where you've put mcclim 11:29:31 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@66.235.80.184] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:30:40 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 11:32:04 (find-package :clim) 11:32:05 NIL 11:32:12 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 11:33:02 Debugger says: Don't know how to REQUIRE MCCLIM. 11:35:07 Getting set up to learn lisp is hard. But I'm determined. 11:35:22 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:35:56 lat: Good. If you plan on getting into mcclim to learn lisp, then you will *need* that determination :) 11:36:09 lat: Have you installed clim? 11:36:12 -!- gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:36:20 lat: how did you install mcclim? 11:37:04 schmx, yes. 11:37:29 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 11:38:28 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 11:38:55 nikodemus`, I used the script from common-lisp.net 11:40:05 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1775.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:40:19 benny [n=benny@i577A1775.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:41:09 How do I create a core using McClim? 11:41:37 don't bother, not worth the effort to save a ten or so seconds loading time 11:42:09 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has left #lisp 11:42:22 (if you really want to, you start sbcl outside of slime, load mcclim and whatever else you want saved in the core, and call sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die with the filename you want for the core) 11:42:29 -!- ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 11:42:36 -!- angerman [n=angerman@d072.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:44:23 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:45:49 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:45:54 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-187-178.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [" MS forgot to close port 80  People can fuck off "] 11:48:02 lat: clbuild? 11:48:24 *hefner* slaps forehead 11:48:36 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:49:09 lat: (setf *central-registry* (append *central-registry* (list "path/toclbuild/systems/"))) 11:49:21 doh, (setf *central-registry* (append *central-registry* (list "path/to/clbuild/systems/"))) 11:49:35 kehoea [n=aidan@daedalus.ipv4.asclepian.ie] has joined #lisp 11:49:46 put that and (require :asdf) before it in ~/.sbclrc 11:49:51 good afternoon! 11:49:58 assuming you used clbuild, that is 11:50:02 -!- myrkraverk` [n=johann@157-157-188-130.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:50:24 hefner, I just saved those instructions for use later. Thanks. 11:50:57 if not, replace "path/to/clbuild/systems/" with the directory where mcclim.asd is 11:51:00 nikodemus`, yes I used clbuild. 11:51:20 what type of error does Common Lisp trigger on (floor 10 0) ? 11:51:31 hint, you may also want to put: (defun ~ (pathname) (merge-pathnames pathname (user-homedir-pathname))) 11:51:37 that in your .sbclrc 11:51:49 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D747.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:51:55 (I don't have the right to install a package anywhere right now, I'm doing some XEmacs work and am curious if we're compatible) 11:52:07 then you can express the path under your homedir as eg. (~ "src/clbuild/systems/") 11:52:28 division-by-zero 11:52:55 clhs: division-by-zero 11:52:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/e_divisi.htm 11:53:13 kehoea: Compatible? Conditions in Elisp and CL are quite different 11:53:24 awesome, thank you 11:54:47 we have structured errors in XEmacs, tcr 11:54:56 (well, at least 21.5, which I'm mostly interested in) 11:55:01 you mean first-class? 11:55:43 no; and it's not quite as comprehensive as Common Lisp 11:55:56 but as you can see from my question, I am not a CL expert 11:57:19 hasta luego! 11:57:24 -!- kehoea [n=aidan@daedalus.ipv4.asclepian.ie] has left #lisp 11:57:43 nikodemus`, In "(defun ~ (pathname) (merge-pathnames pathname (user-homedir-pathname)))" should pathname actually be the path? 11:59:31 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 11:59:48 -!- cp2_ [n=will@69.163.33.38] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:00:23 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 12:00:40 lat: there's a ready-made 'tilde' system that takes care of ~ expansion in path 12:01:37 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:01:45 nikodemus`, I see you already answered my last question before I asked it. Thanks. 12:02:33 p_l, ok. Thanks. 12:03:34 Do I have to exit emacs and restart to get 12:04:08 it to load the .sbclrc file?o 12:04:33 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:05:40 do you have slime running? 12:05:52 just hit C-c C-c on top of the defun 12:05:56 nikodemus`, yes. 12:06:00 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:07:20 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 12:08:41 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 12:10:28 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-47-226.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:11:27 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-241-91.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:19 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:13:36 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:13:48 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:14:11 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-187-178.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 12:14:54 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:15:10 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-187-178.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Client Quit] 12:16:50 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 12:17:31 Jasko [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:42 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:18:52 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 12:21:46 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-187-178.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 12:21:52 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590f84c6.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:21:53 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-84.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:23:23 thot [n=thot@203-73-249-80.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has joined #lisp 12:23:41 -!- stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:25:28 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Client Quit] 12:25:33 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 12:26:25 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-53-50.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:27:03 xinming_ [n=hyy@122.238.70.188] has joined #lisp 12:31:18 nikodemus`, Is this what you meant: (setf *central-registry* (append *central-registry* (list (~ "src/clbuild/systems/")))) 12:33:11 oops, my bad: replace *central-registry* with asdf:*central-registry* or put (use-package :asdf) after (require :asdf) 12:34:55 kenjin_ [n=kenjin@163.152.180.247] has joined #lisp 12:35:20 -!- kenjin_ is now known as Guest80835 12:35:36 nikodemus`, do I have the path right? 12:37:41 yes, assuming $HOME/clbuild/systems/ exits :) 12:38:06 feh, i mean $HOME/src/clbuild/systems/ 12:38:11 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:38:46 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.249.208] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:38:54 (probe-file (~ "src/clbuild/systems/")) 12:38:57 HG` [n=wells@xdslej241.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:39:10 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 12:40:09 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 12:40:33 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-236-21.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:42:03 argible [n=argible@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:56 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-84.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 12:43:09 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:43:41 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:43:41 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-2-71.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:43:42 stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:01 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:45:24 timor [n=martin@w4698.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 12:45:27 -!- timor [n=martin@w4698.dip.tu-dresden.de] has left #lisp 12:46:27 -!- thot [n=thot@203-73-249-80.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has quit [] 12:46:57 malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:48:18 -!- aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host249-98-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:49:33 aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host138-19-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:51:30 maybe cltl is too old to read, (funcall (cons (lambda () 'hi) nil)) should be valid CL 12:51:35 It makes an error if I try to do something like (setf (funcall fn ...)), when fn is passed as a function argument. How do I avoid it? 12:52:34 s0ber [n=s0ber@114-45-230-166.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:18 larry: there's no way it can be valid CL, bar shadowing and defining a different FUNCALL. 12:53:42 CONS always returns a CONS and FUNCALL never takes a CONS. 12:53:46 larry: cltl1 is too old to read yes, cltl2 is not totally but mostly accurate 12:54:36 cltl2 is a good read to get the picture, you shouldn't use it as reference, though. 12:54:52 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 12:54:56 (setf funcall) is not in CL either. 12:55:20 Some implementations provide a (setf funcall), but obviously, it's subject to limitations. 12:55:50 Uhm what does it take as first parameter? 12:55:54 eg. #+clisp: *** - (SETF FUNCALL) is only defined for functions of the form #'symbol. 12:56:38 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:44 Is there any way do detour the problem? I'm using sbcl 12:56:58 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host136.190-230-89.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:57:10 Guest80835: you could define your own (SETF FUNCALL) but you will have the same problem if you try to get the function from an expression or even a variable. 12:58:03 Guest80835: hopefully, there's a limited set of accessors you want to use here, so you can use CASE or COND to select the right setf form. 12:58:07 manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has joined #lisp 12:58:38 can you be more specific? I'm newbie 12:58:48 Or if the accessor is known at compilation time, just use it directly (setf (funcall 'car pair) 'a) <=> (setf (car pair) 'a) 12:59:28 No it can't be known at compilation time 12:59:38 Guest80835: Essentially, you can't do that. SETF is a macro that has to know at compile-time what it's supposed to expand to 12:59:52 (assert (member slot '(car cdr))) (setf (funcall slot) 'x) <=> (ecase slot ((car) (setf (car pair) 'x)) ((cdr) (setf (cdr pair) 'x))) 13:00:19 -!- larry [n=shrek@88.131.67.194] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:00:23 Guest80835: An alternative is to pass closures to your function, which you can invoke with a value, and the closure is responsible for data manipulation 13:00:27 Guest80835: but at least you must know the set of possible accessors you will get at run-time. 13:00:35 Is there a nice graph online showing the type hierarchy in CL? I can't find one and I'm not near the book that has it. 13:01:15 aerique: Gary King had some code to make CLOS graphs, perhaps? 13:01:39 closure...Ok I'll try it..thank you matimago, tcr 13:01:43 aerique: try: http://tyniurl.com/cltypehier 13:02:10 Guest80835: you may search google group for locative and/or deref in cll. 13:02:20 -!- stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has quit ["Liqourtime"] 13:02:37 hawkbill [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has joined #lisp 13:02:50 minion: clqr 13:02:51 clqr: The Common Lisp Quick Reference is a booklet with short descriptions of the symbols defined in the ANSI standard: http://clqr.berlios.de/ 13:03:03 aerique: I mean http://tinyurl.com/cltypehier of course. 13:03:48 aerique: specifically, the figure "Data Types" 13:03:50 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:04:26 aerique: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sellout42/3771365407/sizes/o/ there's one I made a while ago 13:05:13 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:05:58 I think I used CL-DOT, then cleaned it up in OmniGraffle. 13:06:10 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 13:06:19 -!- Guest80835 [n=kenjin@163.152.180.247] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:06:44 sellout: that's a nice one, thanks 13:06:47 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 13:07:09 matimago: also thanks, that qeury alone gave some nice pictures for a quiet friday afternoon at work :) 13:08:04 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:08:39 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:08:39 lichtlbau: i'm not sure we're getting the same results back from Google since I didn't see that one 13:08:57 slackjaw [n=jolyonw@124-171-248-180.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:09:11 yeah that's the problem with google, it personalize the results of the queries... 13:09:15 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:21 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:09:26 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 13:12:11 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has left #lisp 13:13:15 aerique: I didn't point you to google, that was matimago. 13:13:39 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:14:02 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:14:20 lichtblau: I missed that, sorry. 13:15:24 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 13:15:45 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Client Quit] 13:16:04 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 13:17:06 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-18-33.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 13:18:04 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 13:18:41 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-29-239.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:19:00 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:05 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:20:19 aerique: I made a slightly nicer version: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sellout42/3772201180/sizes/o/ 13:20:22 -!- argible [n=argible@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:20:42 sellout, nice! 13:20:49 got rid of the grid, and made the distinct hierarchies a bit clearere. 13:20:53 -e 13:21:00 all types? 13:21:06 segv [n=mb@p4FC1FF75.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:07 tic: Classes. 13:21:15 -!- csaba [n=cgajo@193.189.163.110] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:21:24 sellout, all of those, then? 13:21:33 tic: Yeah. 13:23:56 Guest497`: or (funcall '(setf car) ...) 13:26:40 -!- chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:27:45 nikodemus`: re Malcom Reynolds's problem, there might also be a problem with the leak on OS X for signal handlers. 13:28:51 hmmm... would it be against ANSI if a CL implementation implemented all types as classes, with all CLOS mechanics available (at least in some form)? 13:29:03 p_l: *all* types? 13:30:06 pkhuong: I mean that basically there would be equivalence like type == class 13:30:06 oh crap. www.sbcl.org appears to be down 13:30:08 There is an infinite number of them. 13:30:15 and i need to leave in a minute 13:30:16 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:18 timor [n=martin@w4276.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 13:30:29 -!- timor [n=martin@w4276.dip.tu-dresden.de] has left #lisp 13:30:37 if it's down for everybody, can someone put up a trouble-ticket on sourceforge? 13:30:58 p_l: AND/OR/NOT/SATISFIES types. 13:31:08 pkhuong; right :/ 13:31:15 nikodemus`: http://sbcl.sourceforge.net/ is up 13:31:53 oh, ok 13:32:12 pkhuong: you could say that I always wanted an implementation where + was a generic :P 13:32:39 www.sbcl.org doesn't seem to resolve to anything here? 13:33:03 sellout: that's an even better one, thanks! 13:33:36 the nameservers for it don't seem to respond 13:33:53 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@adsl-89-132-13-4.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 13:34:01 -!- Adlai-AWAY is now known as Adlai 13:34:01 ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: SERVFAIL, id: 64346 13:34:11 I've noticed DNS problems with other domains 13:34:20 kmr's b9.com cannot be resolved either 13:35:01 sent mail to kmr 13:35:08 maybe there's some DDOS attack going on 13:35:17 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 13:35:18 could be 13:37:32 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 13:37:46 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:57 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 13:38:59 /whowas jdz 13:39:12 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:39:14 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:39:46 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-73-149.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:40:24 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 13:40:59 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:04 malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:41:37 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:42:32 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 13:42:41 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 13:44:00 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:23 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:44:28 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 13:45:27 nikodemus`: sometimes there seem to be a partition of the name domains. I've had some domains hosted in US, and while I could reach them without any problem some clients using other ISPs could not. 13:45:46 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 13:45:48 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has quit [] 13:45:54 of the name domain _servers_. 13:46:06 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:08 Is there a reverse of Greenspun's tenth rule? I'm implementing half of C++ in CL :-( 13:46:22 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:35 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-134.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:47:27 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:48:21 aerique: You're doing it wrong. 13:48:23 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 13:48:41 nyef [n=nyef@pool-64-222-164-136.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:47 Hello all. 13:48:56 hello nyef 13:49:00 hi nyef 13:49:03 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 13:49:18 sellout: why ? 13:49:18 aerique: http://www.catonmat.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/john-mccarthy-programming-completely-wrong.jpg 13:49:36 sellout: yeah yeah :) 13:49:47 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 13:50:00 Which half? 13:50:45 Which is worse? 13:52:00 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-18-33.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:52:03 We could collect a set of tools for lispers condemned to program in C++, such as http://www.csg.is.titech.ac.jp/~chiba/opencxx/html/base.html http://symbolism.110mb.com/ http://www.interhack.net/projects/lpp/ 13:52:26 Unfortunately these libraries might not be as casher as the stl... 13:52:35 "casher"? 13:53:54 Yes, allowed by the authority. 13:54:14 ... "kosher"? 13:54:30 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:33 nyef: Ahh, good catch. I was still confused. 13:54:50  13:55:02 matimago: Heh. 13:55:09 'kosher' is in any case an English corruption of a Yiddish corruption of a Hebrew word, so probably don't need to worry too much 13:55:33 *nyef* is always surprised when someone says something outside of the ascii character set and it actually shows up in his IRC client. 13:55:53 nyef: probably mostly by chance 13:55:54 *tcr* too 13:56:00 Greetings. 13:56:46 lol 13:57:08 matimago: lpp is *weird* and cool 13:57:35 let puthash(let key, let table, let value) { ... } <- function definition 13:57:37 :D 14:00:58 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:01:46 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:03:43 davelambert [n=djl@monoblock.open.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:05:14 Lacrymology1 [n=Tomas@200.69.219.97] has joined #lisp 14:05:18 timor [n=martin@w4276.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 14:05:35 -!- lacrymology [n=lacrymol@6-64-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:05:40 lacrymology [n=lacrymol@6-64-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 14:06:04 -!- lacrymology [n=lacrymol@6-64-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:06:13 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-231.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:06:17 -!- Lacrymology1 is now known as Lacrymology 14:06:46 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.22] has joined #lisp 14:07:19 Lacrymology pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84437 14:07:48 is that awful, or acceptable? 14:08:03 Awful. 14:08:04 acceptable 14:08:10 do we like empty-bodied do's? 14:08:10 if you like do 14:08:23 i don't like DO at all 14:08:24 An empty-bodied DO wouldn't have that NIL there. 14:08:48 I'm in no position to judge wether I like it or not, that's my first lisp function ever =) 14:09:01 Lacrymology: Congratulations! 14:09:15 nyef: the compiler complained if I didn't put anything in the body.. 14:09:28 heh heh heh. 14:09:44 empty-bodied DOs are fine 14:09:49 Lacrymology: It did? Which compiler? 14:09:51 Lacrymology: which compiler? 14:10:33 I did it before with only the i defined in the do, and a (let ((ret 1)) but I think this is better, somehow 14:10:41 lacrymol1gy [n=lacrymol@6-64-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 14:10:43 CLISP 14:10:54 damnit, I left irssi open at home 14:11:31 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:11:39 time to go -- bye 14:11:39 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs181148156.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:11:45 -!- prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:12:00 ok, no, it didn't complain now. I must've been doing something else wrong 14:12:33 Adamant [n=Adamant@66.213.192.210] has joined #lisp 14:13:22 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [] 14:14:56 housel [n=housel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 14:16:08 Lacrymology: How can this be your first Lisp function ever? You started studying Practical Common Lisp almost two years ago! 14:16:40 beach: yeah, and then I wasn't able to go on with it, and I restarted like 3 times 14:16:45 either beach is an elephant, or he knows how to use grep! 14:16:53 tic: the latter 14:17:02 and I don't consider copying what the book says writing functions 14:17:14 beach, that was my suspicion. elephants are generally not good at using keyboards. 14:17:15 that's the first function *I* wrote =) 14:17:29 Lacrymology: I see, yes. 14:17:41 beach: that doesn't mean anything i've been reading lisp books for 3 years and have yet to write anything useful 14:17:45 you could embed the stuff into the init/step/final clauses of DO, but it gets rather obscure. 14:17:56 Lacrymology: next, write a faster factorial 14:18:11 syamajala: the solution is obvious: less reading, more doing. 14:18:32 style question: empty lines within bodies? 14:18:50 the thing with PCL is that.. it's not too good of a teacher. I mean, it explains everything, but doesn't leave too much space for practice. I still don't feel comfortable with where do all the forms go, which ones should be lists, etc 14:18:56 syamajala: Well, whether what we write is useful or not is much harder to determine. 14:19:08 Lacrymology, PAIP is a better book in that respect. 14:19:10 jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 14:19:23 i started reading paip 14:19:37 i've read most of pcl, and a bunch of onlisp 14:19:46 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:19:46 stassats: how do you make a faster factorial? 14:19:54 and bits and pieces of amop 14:19:59 Lacrymology: use a better algorithm 14:20:43 or cheat! (caching) 14:21:22 Or cheat! (changing the computer clock mid-run) 14:21:59 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590f84c6.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 14:22:02 embed a flux capacitor! 14:22:30 (and throw the computer down a tall building so it reaches 88 miles per hour) 14:23:25 what would that do? 14:23:51 oh 14:23:51 send results from the future? 14:24:00 i hate that movie 14:24:55 with a time machine we wouldn't need fast computers anymore 14:25:55 That's true. Even if it required immense computational support to run the time machine. 14:26:19 you could just defer the computation into the future. ;) 14:26:44 is there a better algorithm that doesn't imply square roots, logartithms and general mathematical analysis craziness? 14:26:46 Kindof reminds me of how they got the keys in the first Bill and Ted movie... 14:26:57 Lacrymology, caching. 14:27:09 "memoization" would be the google-friendly term. 14:27:28 tic: there's no shared computation in factorial. 14:27:29 or wait, fact? Sorry. I was thinking about fib. 14:27:33 salut 14:27:34 memoization doesn't help in one-run 14:28:20 tic: that'd only make it faster for later runs.. and would require me using globals.. no? I come from the C.. globals are evil 14:28:41 -!- davelambert [n=djl@monoblock.open.ac.uk] has left #lisp 14:28:45 Lacrymology: no globals, closures 14:28:47 Globals aren't evil... 14:29:14 stassats: how would closures help with different calls to factorial? 14:29:34 Lacrymology: the same way globals would 14:30:17 I did an add-list. I think I'll do fib next 14:31:29 fib can be faster than naive implementation without caching and time-machines too 14:31:39 stassats: I can't imagine how to do it. Can you exemplify? 14:31:52 stassats: yes, that I can think how to do, too 14:34:17 rouslan [n=Rouslan@pool-64-222-181-252.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:10 -!- timor [n=martin@w4276.dip.tu-dresden.de] has left #lisp 14:37:23 stassats annotated #84437 "silly example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84437#1 14:37:31 Lacrymology: here it is 14:38:42 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:39:05 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 14:39:09 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:40:15 stassats: if you have computed n!, you could also have m! for all 0 <= m < n for free. What's the point of using a hash table? Might as well use a dense vector. 14:40:44 stassats: wait.. you can do that? 14:40:53 zomfg 14:41:07 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 14:41:27 at this point, shouldn't we be suggesting a cunning use of the Stirling series? 14:41:35 http://www.luschny.de/math/factorial/FastFactorialFunctions.htm 14:41:58 pkhuong: well, that was just an example of closures instead of global variables 14:42:30 Xof: bah, imprecise. 14:42:35 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 14:42:50 what do you expect? I'm a physicist 14:43:04 heh! 14:44:48 Taggnostr2 [n=x@dyn57-372.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 14:45:16 -!- Taggnostr2 [n=x@dyn57-372.yok.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:45:35 never heard of stirling series before, but it looks interesting 14:45:41 Taylor series of the Gamma function, truncated at the first order term ;) 14:45:53 *syamajala* will be taking intro to analysis in the fall 14:45:53 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:45:57 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-372.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 14:46:20 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:46:28 jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 14:50:40 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 14:53:09 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:43 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 14:58:12 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:00:19 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.64.194] has joined #lisp 15:03:04 it's amazing the difference that makes iterative fib over naive recursive fib.. 15:03:32 I haven't compared since the first years at uni 15:03:42 back when programming fibonacci was all there was to school 15:04:24 wait.. that's all there ever was to it.. fibonacci and induction.. the whole computer science grade is mainly about fibonacci and indcution 15:04:50 deafmacro [n=deafmacr@59.92.164.136] has joined #lisp 15:05:31 -!- deafmacro [n=deafmacr@59.92.164.136] has left #lisp 15:07:24 Lacrymology: no. 15:07:58 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 15:10:23 phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 15:12:03 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:13:54 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:16:22 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-2-71.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:16:22 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-5-93.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:17:44 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:02 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 15:18:15 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:55 -!- clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:20:22 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-5-93.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:20:34 Good afternoon. 15:20:46 howdy 15:21:10 10000 grant proposals to write, 10000 proposals in my TODO list. Take one down, pass it around, 9999 grant proposals to write 15:21:34 Nice! 15:21:53 well, yes, except that at some point I need to do the actual research :-) 15:22:02 The problem with grants is that once you get them, you have to manage them too. 15:22:15 ... which takes time out of research. 15:22:51 there was allegedly a professor here who accidentally spent another group's grant for years without anyone noticing ;) 15:22:55 And you get to write reports about how you spent the money, usually right after the money was granted so you haven't done the work yet. The trick many use here is to first do the research and then apply for a grant. 15:23:11 rsynnott: that's good 15:23:17 is the sbcl site down? 15:23:42 is tunes.org down? 15:23:44 syamajala: try sbcl.sf.net 15:24:56 it seems a lot of sites are down today .. dnswise, i think 15:24:58 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:25:05 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:25:57 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-148-131.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:29:37 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.115.194.160] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:31:34 mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068081123.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:05 -!- mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068081123.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:35:57 -!- bulibuta [n=bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:37:46 wchogg [n=wchogg@host-245-3.pubnet.pdx.edu] has joined #lisp 15:38:13 -!- aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host138-19-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:38:40 aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@79.31.29.41] has joined #lisp 15:42:50 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 15:43:18 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest3054 15:49:14 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:51:27 kenjin_ [n=kenjin@163.152.180.247] has joined #lisp 15:51:53 -!- kenjin_ is now known as Guest19895 15:52:23 what is it that does something like (fn '((3 4) 4 ((9 (1))))) -> (3 4 4 9 1) 15:52:28 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:52:46 something called flatten 15:52:49 a homework solution 15:53:02 there 15:53:17 there isn't in SBCL 15:55:04 Guest19895: no, X3J13 specifically left flatten and factorial out of the spec to provide homework problem opportunities. 15:55:36 :) 15:56:03 Should I write it myself? seriously? 15:56:10 I think flatten and factorial have become tests of the ability to employ search technology rather than ones ability to actually program. 15:56:24 Guest19895: You have to ask, seriously? 15:56:34 Guest19895: you should be able to write it at least 15:56:38 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 15:57:08 *dlowe* can't recall ever having to flatten a list in production code. 15:57:10 Guest19895: it turns out that, in real programs, flattening a list occurs approximately never 15:57:15 I can write it but I just wanted to know if it exists. 15:57:18 take a few minutes to either google it or write it. one will improve your typing skills, the other both your typing skills and your basic lisp skills. Choose one. 15:57:27 *tmh* ponders starting a homework package. 15:58:08 tmh: the one that parses homework description and produces code? 15:58:16 Guest19895: maybe the fact that it doesn't exist should make you pause to think whether what you're doing is sensible 15:58:27 Guest19895: what do you need it for? 15:58:49 stassats: No, one that contains these homework type routines that are commonly encountered. 15:58:50 Maybe people want flatten when they don't realize they should be using MAPCAN instead of MAPCAR? 15:59:02 tmh: that's not interesting 15:59:44 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 16:00:11 stassats: Well, neither are the flatten and factorial questions. My motivation is to not to help, but rather to get people to use it in the hopes of minimizing my annoyance. 16:01:12 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-2-71.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:01:18 adlai: Actually, (apply append '((4 3) (3 2))) will do for my current work, I was just curious. 16:01:30 *tmh* steps away to get a cup of water. New rule, must drink 1 cup of water for every cup of coffee. 16:01:31 #'append 16:01:42 what? We had a whole physics/mathematics disagreement over factorial! And flatten is interesting, because although it's a homework problem it doesn't appear in real code, and the newbies should try to understand why 16:01:57 Guest19895: as sellout said, that suggests that you should have used a different mapping function earlier 16:02:03 -!- sykopomp [n=user@host-70-45-15-7.onelinkpr.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:02:08 (apply #'append ...) is never the right answer either 16:02:32 matley [n=matley@151.66.62.82] has joined #lisp 16:04:18 Guest19895: look at mapcon/mapcan, which might help you. 16:04:28 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.115.194.217] has joined #lisp 16:04:43 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-155.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:52 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:04:56 -!- Adlai is now known as Adlai-AWAY 16:05:47 thank you Adlai. 16:05:56 *nyef* blinks. 16:06:31 The NSes for B9.COM are NS.B9.COM and NS2.B9.COM? Isn't that a little bit too recursive to be bootstrappable? 16:08:11 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-187-178.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [" MS forgot to close port 80  People can fuck off "] 16:08:39 quack [n=fhc@bl4-89-66.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 16:08:59 nyef, isn't that the way it's done nearly everywhere? 16:09:12 I hope not. 16:09:21 -!- quack [n=fhc@bl4-89-66.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:09:25 That said, I've no idea how it is supposed to work.. 16:09:27 no, that's the recommended way to do things 16:09:36 If the domain gets purged from the root DNS, how do you recover it? 16:09:36 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:09:45 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.115.194.217] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:09:51 .com has A records for ns.b9.com and ns2.b9.com 16:09:52 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.115.194.217] has joined #lisp 16:09:58 nyef: that's the standard naming scheme... except that you gibe ip adresses of those servers in NS records 16:10:47 at least, usually you give ips iirc 16:10:48 Something still doesn't seem right about it. 16:11:17 there is no such thing as ns.b9.com for .com 16:11:30 -!- srcerer__ is now known as srcerer 16:11:40 there is only b9's ns-record 16:12:17 naturally the nameservers for b9 should be both geographically and network-topologically separate 16:12:46 -!- prxq_ is now known as prxq 16:12:54 guaqua, doesn't your previous line contradict with what foom said? 16:13:13 let's see 16:13:20 -!- leadnose [i=leadnose@xob.kapsi.fi] has left #lisp 16:13:31 -!- DrForr_ is now known as DrForr 16:14:18 deepfire: yes, it contradicts what I said and is thus incorrect. :) 16:14:39 mmh 16:14:59 there is the SOA and there are the NS's 16:15:13 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:15:13 nameservers can be named or not 16:15:34 err, can they be not named, really? 16:17:04 well, anyway, anything that goes on with domain.tld is delegated to the nameserver of domain.tld, be it ns.domain.tld 16:18:07 guaqua, this doesn't answer how the chicken-and-egg is solved. 16:19:12 i don't understand you 16:20:22 -!- Guest19895 [n=kenjin@163.152.180.247] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:21:05 The question is, how do you look up NS.B9.COM in order to ask it for the IP address of NS.B9.COM when all you have is the name? 16:21:17 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:21:24 nyef: the .com servers have the A record. 16:21:43 really. 16:21:51 foom: Is it an authoritative copy, or a cache that can expire? 16:21:56 nyef: authoritative. 16:22:08 what i gather from wikipedia's explanation, .com provides with a glue record. i.e. the ip address with the ns record information 16:22:11 That itself seems wrong. 16:22:22 Oh well. 16:22:24 nyef: you have to enter it when you register a domain, in the registrar's GUI 16:23:07 *nyef* doesn't remember a spot for that when he registered his domains. 16:23:21 If the NS records you're serving don't match the ones that .com serves, you're doing something wrong. Similarly if the A records don't match. 16:23:57 one thing you really shouldn't do is use an NS in a domain not served by the same parent nameserver 16:24:08 e.g. b9.com NS ns.whatever.org is bad 16:24:57 because then the .com NS cannot include an ns.whatever.org A 1.2.3.4 in the reply, and clients need to do another few roundtrips to get the addr from the .org nses 16:25:06 Clearly, I don't understand the DNS system. 16:26:11 quack [n=fhc@81.193.89.66] has joined #lisp 16:26:22 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.46.116] has joined #lisp 16:27:10 foom: not many roundtrips ... tld servers are pretty much always in cache 16:27:22 -!- quack [n=fhc@81.193.89.66] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:28:59 Hrm. "Nameserver not responding" "ns.b9.com A record not found, try again". 16:29:35 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-187-178.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 16:29:49 nyef: dig @a.gtld-servers.net. ns.b9.com A 16:30:01 koollman: also, glue records 16:30:28 antifuchs: that, is an evil, bad, bad thing. I really dislike using glue records :) 16:31:03 not using glue records just makes your site slower to access, I don't see why you'd want that. 16:32:39 -!- slackjaw [n=jolyonw@124-171-248-180.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:36:32 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:36:32 davelambert [n=djl@monoblock.open.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:36:55 milanj [n=milan@79.101.220.98] has joined #lisp 16:37:18 foom: it doesn't. Can you time it ? :) 16:37:42 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:37:53 foom: I don't want to use them, because I'm in charge of domain registration 16:39:01 -!- davelambert [n=djl@monoblock.open.ac.uk] has left #lisp 16:43:03 koollman: if you mean you're in charge of lots of domains, then sure, you only need one glue record per TLD... 16:43:26 koollman: and as for timing: obviously 2 RTT is longer than 1 RTT. 16:43:54 foom: but there aren't two round trips. the dns resolvers take care of it, and will do just about the same request 16:44:35 and I meant I'm in charge of the registration process and folks hate me when it goes wrong or too slowly. And glue records aren't always updated at the right time 16:45:01 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 16:45:08 quack [n=fhc@bl4-89-66.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 16:45:17 -!- quack [n=fhc@bl4-89-66.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:46:52 malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:47:23 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:47:44 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:47:53 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-jybiubcxlfmmgrsz] has joined #lisp 16:48:12 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:48:14 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:48:40 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.22] has quit ["Leaving..."] 16:49:46 -!- mgm [n=mgm@p84-72.acedsl.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:52:59 quack [n=fhc@81.193.89.66] has joined #lisp 16:53:23 -!- quack [n=fhc@81.193.89.66] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:53:43 quack [n=fhc@bl4-89-66.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 16:53:56 -!- quack [n=fhc@bl4-89-66.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:53:58 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-71-62-44-194.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:15 addled [n=adl@88.Red-80-26-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:35 mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@c-71-62-44-194.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:51 *tmh* sees news about ECL using libffi. 16:56:10 is that good or bad? 16:56:24 -!- addled [n=adl@88.Red-80-26-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 16:56:59 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:57:02 I know nothing about libffi. Does it provide the capability to use foreign functions in any library or just C? 16:57:16 C-based libraries, that is. 16:59:43 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 17:00:44 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 17:00:46 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-71-62-44-194.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:01:46 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:02:05 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:02:36 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:54 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 17:07:10 malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:07:38 mgm [n=mgm@p84-72.acedsl.com] has joined #lisp 17:09:27 mcspiff [n=user@DC7CB.WPA.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 17:09:37 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:11:12 parenscript is really frickin annoying .. *sigh* .. i found a way/hack to inline raw js strings, but ofc. that means newlines in the code/strings end up as literally \\n which makes no sense .. 17:12:10 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-155.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:12:44 using raw js kind of misses the point of parenscript, doesn't it? 17:12:59 maybe this stuff is a mistake .. is there some lib. out there that enables one to mix lisp & in various ways? .. cl-quasi-quote made no sense; couldn't get a "hello world" up and going with it 17:13:45 quack [n=fhc@bl4-89-66.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 17:13:55 -!- quack [n=fhc@bl4-89-66.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:13:58 there are quite a few things parenscript can't handle, tcr .. using js-code in strings as a fallback is the only way 17:14:28 quack [n=fhc@bl4-89-66.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 17:14:34 -!- quack [n=fhc@bl4-89-66.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:14:49 quack [n=fhc@bl4-89-66.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 17:15:18 -!- quack [n=fhc@bl4-89-66.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:16:22 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 17:16:24 i'll just write my own hack i think .. this is too much to deal with 17:17:50 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:19:37 lnostdal: i'm surprised to hear that qq didn't work for you... given that it has an extensive test suite included 17:19:59 and qq easily supports what you want, there are even tests for that 17:20:15 i need to run now, though... :| 17:20:17 -!- attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@adsl-89-132-13-4.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit ["..."] 17:20:56 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 17:22:06 -!- masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:22:15 maybe i'm doing something wrong .. i'll give it another go 17:25:02 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:46 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1FF75.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 17:30:11 nvteighen [n=nvteighe@130.Red-83-37-67.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:15 hi! 17:30:54 i can't parse the tests; that's the problem i guess .. i have 0 idea where i am to start .. trying to expand stuff to understand what's going on results in "comma not inside backquote" so no go 17:31:53 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:41 -!- Reav___ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:50:25 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:51:50 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:55:06 athos_ [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 17:55:44 -!- athos_ [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has left #lisp 17:56:05 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 17:57:00 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-231.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 17:59:24 Apparently the DNS troubles are due to the bind dos. 17:59:30 mgm- [n=mgm@m505e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:39 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:59:57 -!- mcspiff [n=user@DC7CB.WPA.Dal.Ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:00:19 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:32 -!- athos is now known as Porthos 18:02:11 -!- mgm [n=mgm@p84-72.acedsl.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:02:41 masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has joined #lisp 18:02:43 -!- lacrymol1gy [n=lacrymol@6-64-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit ["leaving"] 18:03:30 merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has joined #lisp 18:03:30 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@89-180-226-162.net.novis.pt] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 18:03:38 -!- Porthos is now known as athos 18:04:49 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 18:07:17 -!- merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:07:38 merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has joined #lisp 18:07:43 -!- nvteighen [n=nvteighe@130.Red-83-37-67.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 18:11:13 hi, any way to (time (foo)) and return an actual val of "real time" it took or "total run time"? 18:12:56 get-internal-{real,run}-time 18:12:59 (let ((start (get-universal-time))) (foo) (- (get-universal-time) start)) 18:14:14 pkhuong: stassats: thanks 18:15:19 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:15:20 -!- Adlai-AWAY is now known as Adlai 18:16:35 -!- mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@c-71-62-44-194.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:19:09 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:19:18 For the really perverse (- (get-universal-time) (progn (foo) 0) (get-universal-time)), where the result is negative. 18:20:33 why not (- (get-universal-time) (progn (foo) (get-universal-time))) ? 18:20:57 That is better, I didn't think of that. 18:21:35 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:22:06 (+ (- (get-universal-time)) (progn (sleep 1) (get-universal-time))) 18:22:41 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-90414.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 18:23:07 or (+ (- #1=(get-universal-time)) (progn (sleep 1) #1#)) 18:24:44 _deepfire pasted "measuring-time-lapse" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84448 18:25:33 (float x) instead of (coerce x 'float) 18:25:48 Bah, that's actually useful, I prefer the monstrosities that stassats and I were proposing. 18:28:11 chris2_ [n=chris@dslb-188-098-217-225.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:25 -!- chris2_ is now known as chris2 18:29:39 frodef [n=ffj@226.80-202-87.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:30:00 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:22 stassats, nice one, thanks! 18:32:34 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 18:33:11 *tmh* checks crimereports.com 18:33:47 did you kill someone? 18:34:01 ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-176-210.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:34:32 Heh, no, just have an unhealthy preoccupation/paranoia with crime. 18:35:20 dmiles [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:43 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:36:18 I think this might be a case of too much information being a bad thing. 18:37:46 tmh: watch Criminal Minds 18:37:51 you'll enjoy it 18:38:00 I've been reading books about forensic science lately. 18:38:16 I don't have TV. 18:38:44 you do have internets, don't you? 18:39:01 And I discovered that reading made me wary when walking alone very late 18:39:17 stassats: presumably. 18:39:38 tmh: www.surfthechannel.com 18:40:02 (I don't have cable TV either...) 18:40:11 seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 18:40:22 why do we need both a "set" and "label"? 18:40:28 (newbie question so don't laugh) 18:40:57 label? 18:41:01 seb-: set? 18:41:23 seb-: "The function set is deprecated." 18:41:24 stassats: i'm looking at Paul Graham's paper...he uses label to allow recursion into his minimal Lisp... 18:41:41 he leaves out set but i assume you'd want that for symbols too right? 18:41:49 "The Roots of Lisp" 18:41:49 seb-: LABELS, perhaps? 18:42:07 defun 18:42:12 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-73-149.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 18:42:24 seb-: You make no sense. 18:42:39 well, minimal lisps of PG are out of scope of this channel 18:42:51 beach: ok..let me try again...to give a function a name you need an operator 18:43:05 seb-: You do? 18:43:09 beach: to have variables you need another operator 18:43:17 beach: can they both be the same? should they be? 18:43:18 seb-: really? 18:43:36 seb-: define "operator"! 18:43:41 beach: to "label" a lambda function and "set" variable values :) 18:44:07 beach: hey i'm using PG's nomenclature..don't blame me 18:44:16 you can have them in one scope, you can establish names with LAMBDA itself 18:44:24 seb-: This channel is not PG's 18:44:29 seb-: If you're not talking about CL, then you may only need one ... DEFINE in Scheme, for example. 18:44:38 stassats: whoa..wait..how can you establish names w/ lambda? 18:44:53 sellout: thanks 18:45:12 stassats: lambda is the *anonymous* thingie 18:45:20 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:45:34 ((lambda (name) (name 9)) (lambda (x) (+ 10))) ; that is scheme 18:45:51 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:46:04 stassats: i agree you don't *need* names 18:46:23 well, you just gave NAME to the second lambda 18:46:26 <_3b> seb-: LET can be transformed to LAMBDA 18:46:28 stassats: wait...i'm reading you thing again 18:46:30 #-common-lisp (define (funcall f . a) (apply f a)) ((lambda (name) (funcall name 9)) (lambda (x) (+ 10))) ; what is it? 18:46:41 stassats: oooh..that was sneaky 18:47:01 stassats: that's just too cool 18:47:06 stassats: i'm still recovering 18:47:36 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:48:06 *Adlai* curses the internet. 18:48:18 Don't you want (+ 10 x) there? 18:48:36 caoliver: i did, yes 18:49:16 Are you planning to bean seb over the head with Y next? 18:49:46 bean? 18:49:53 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 18:50:02 beat? 18:50:04 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 18:50:08 bean ::= hit with more than a light tap. 18:50:08 ah! 18:50:22 caoliver: i've suffered the last week wrapping my brain around Y 18:50:28 caoliver: got beaned already :) 18:50:30 any way to peek at the body/contents of a function? ie. (defun foo () (print "bar")) (fun-contents foo) => (PRINT "bar") 18:50:32 caoliver: it was painful 18:50:54 egn: no standard way 18:50:54 Where? Did you read Dick Gabriel's little paper? 18:51:05 stassats: k, sbcl specific? 18:51:13 caoliver: i'm pissed that Y is called the "Fixed Point Combinator" rather than the "Recursion Combinator" 18:51:19 caoliver: that led to all sorts of confusion for me 18:51:42 egn: The commercial Lisp suppliers would have been against including that in the standard. 18:51:52 egn: well, i'd make my own defun, if needed such feature, but you rarely need it, actually 18:52:33 beach: stassats: k, thanks 18:52:40 seb-: "Fixed Point" is a known definition in CS. 18:53:01 beach: yes but in mathland it means something different..hence my confusion 18:53:22 seb-: What does it mean in "mathland"? 18:53:34 beach: sin(x) = x is a fixed point in math land but in CSland (Y f) is the fixed point of f 18:53:53 Your thinking of a numerical FP, but this is an expression FP. 18:54:07 beach: we say f has a fixed point (Y f) even if you can't actually simplify the lambda expression (Y f) w/o a recursion bomb 18:54:09 s/Your/You're/ 18:54:14 caoliver: YES! 18:54:19 beach: what caoliver said 18:54:29 beach: he makes my rambings make sense 18:54:57 seb-: I think the math definition is just a particular restriction of the CS one to the domain of numbers. 18:55:11 Yep. LC values are expressions. 18:55:37 seb-: (Y f) is equal to (f (Y f)). That's what makes Y a fixed point operator. 18:56:09 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:56:35 pkhuong: thanks..the math person in me got that and then sadly said "ok, let's simplify (Y f) to see what we get"...that was when painful chaos started 18:57:17 Too much super glue and caffeine there for me 18:57:17 seb-: You need to liberate yourself from "the math person in you" in order to do useful CS or programming stuff. 18:57:52 seb-: Mathematics usually use the substitution models, i.e. they use call-by-name. 18:58:24 seb-: I.e. in (f (Y f)) you first look at the first application of F and subsitute arguments with (Y f) 18:59:13 beach: He's conflating evaluation models 18:59:22 tcr: yes...i think you understand....i reeeally wanted to do call-by-name 18:59:25 rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:44 No I don't understand. 18:59:48 tcr: i really didn't like the evaluation model changing the answer 18:59:58 tcr: that bugged me 18:59:59 seb-: it doesn't change the answer at all. 19:00:25 pkhuong: it does in the sense that one eval method will blow up (eager evaluation) and lazy evaluation won't 19:00:32 pkhuong: if i'm not mistaken 19:00:59 In one you get an answer in the other you keep turning around in circle. If all the mathemtic you've ever done has only exposed you to confluent rewriting systems, I'd demande a refund. 19:01:10 seb-: The Y combinator in strict languages is a bit more complicated, basically it has to "lazify" first 19:01:32 pkhuong: yes..well put 19:01:38 tcr: does CL count as a lazy language there? 19:01:47 Adlai: no. 19:01:56 language for the lazy 19:02:35 It's pretty easy to make lazy stuff in CL though, right? With macros and closures etc? 19:03:14 Adlai: you have to do it yourself, explicitly. 19:03:18 (Just in case I get challenged by a haskellist to show that CL is all-powerful) 19:03:19 I was going to suggest you could trivially fake up force and delay. 19:03:25 No, you can't define functions which magically receive their parameters being boxed in closures 19:03:30 caoliver: yes, that's what I was talking about 19:04:13 Well, couldn't you write a define-lazy-function macro, which created such a function? 19:04:26 Earlier Lisp dialects had them. There's a recent paper by tfb about them not being doomed to be slow. 19:04:44 Though I haven't read that paper. 19:04:52 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 19:04:58 Adlai: Try it. 19:05:18 tcr: fexprs and lazy evaluation aren't the same thing. 19:05:24 Adlai: before calling functions, all arguments are evaluated 19:05:55 pkhuong: Uh, that's true. 19:06:12 stassats: yes, define-lazy-function actually lies to the caller, and defines a macro which wraps all the arguments in closures before calling the internal function. 19:06:24 How's that a function then? 19:06:31 It's not. 19:06:50 -!- merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has quit [] 19:06:54 But delay is syntax in scheme as well. 19:07:09 I'm afraid you don't get the point. 19:07:18 Being? 19:07:37 I haven't encountered a need to do this, though. I'm just curious because every now and then I hear/read about how Haskell (or other lazy-evaluation langs) trump all others. 19:07:41 caoliver: I can also implement closures in assembly language. That doesn't mean that assembly has first-class functions. 19:08:49 Ok. Where's the lose? 19:08:58 Adlai: haskell fanboys surely think that it trumps 19:09:08 caoliver: You'd have to hook up into how you compiler prepares parameters passed to functions. That's not possible with syntactic transformations, aka macros. 19:09:20 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:10:30 caoliver: Perhaps we're talking cross-purpose, though. We're talking about implicit lazification 19:10:49 And with force/delay it is explicit. 19:11:10 right 19:11:11 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:20 Well, maybe you could write lazy-eval which would make it implicit. 19:11:24 I'm not that interested in cloning haskell, hence my obtuseness. 19:12:16 Anyways, this is just out of curiosity and a desire for being distracted from my Ruby project that I must get back to. 19:12:21 Adlai: You could also write an eval which passes each odd parameter strictly, and each even parameter lazily :) 19:12:36 My head hurts. 19:12:47 tcr: you could also be like some Scheme implementations, and evaluate args right-to-left just to be a jerk to your users... 19:13:25 SBCL: hey, is that hack to find core in the runtime's directory going to make it into the main-line distro? 19:13:26 Ocaml does that too, for some technical reasons I forgot 19:13:51 Adlai: easier to get the arguments in the right order on the stack that way. 19:13:53 caoliver: I'd hope so because it's mine :-) 19:15:20 pkhuong: interesting. At some point I should set aside some time to learn more about the lower-level details of Lisp implementations... that bit about the tagging scheme in CCL caught my interest. 19:15:33 I hope so too. I'd rather stop patching the runtime to find my stuff elsewhere than /usr/local. 19:16:00 TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has joined #lisp 19:16:01 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:16:02 caoliver: Uh, just use a shell script :P 19:16:05 make a wrapper script which finds it 19:16:14 caoliver: use SBCL_HOME. 19:16:50 I can't recall why, but at some time in the past, I didn't like that answer. 19:18:54 For some reason, I wanted SBCL_HOME to default to an build time installation specific place. 19:22:58 Pb_ [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 19:23:19 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-90414.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:24:11 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 19:24:59 -!- Guest3054 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 19:25:40 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:28:21 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:12 -!- phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:31:32 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Client Quit] 19:31:48 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 19:34:43 -!- jao [n=jao@21.Red-83-43-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:37:48 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:41:11 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:41:38 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 19:41:57 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 19:44:17 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 19:45:29 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:51:30 -!- masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:52:34 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:53:52 francogrex [n=franco@201.234-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 19:54:49 is there a general way to break out of an infinte loop without shutting down the lisp program? or is it implementation dependant? 19:56:12 implementation dependant 19:56:25 shutting down the lisp program is implementation dependant too 19:57:00 stassats, I meant ctrl-alt-del sort of shutting down 19:57:35 well, it's not standard either 19:58:22 ok, how about in ecl? does anyone know how to braek out of infinte. i didn't see in docs (ecl is poor in documentation) or sbcl, 19:58:38 C-c? 19:59:46 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.46.116] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:59:55 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:00:10 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslej241.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:00:41 mjf [n=mjf@r2r126.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 20:01:50 francogrex, what OS? 20:01:58 win32 20:02:26 Unfortunately SBCL on win32 doesn't handle Ctrl-C. 20:02:47 As to ECL, I don't remember.. 20:03:02 win32 --- here is your problem 20:03:03 i try ctrl-alt-c but this shuts down the ecl engine completely 20:03:15 sorry i meant ctrl-shift-c 20:03:46 stassats, some say it is, but it's an obligation to use it 20:04:12 obligation? there is no such thing 20:04:27 if you work for someone else, yes there is 20:04:59 *deepfire* does lisp delivery on win32 and shares the pain with francogrex. 20:04:59 you are working for someone else voluntary, i suppose 20:05:10 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:05:18 stassats, please, get real. 20:05:47 well, in that case, maybe the other side of the problem is that you're using stuff that has been given to you for free, and you're not working on or funding its improvement on your platform 20:06:53 In fact, I remember writing a patch to handle Ctrl-C on windows. 20:06:58 On ECL, that is. 20:07:03 and using a platform that not many use. at that 20:07:53 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:08:56 francogrex, do you run the mingw or msvc -based ECL? 20:09:37 deepfire, mingw 20:11:29 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:57 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-2-71.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:11:59 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:12:05 anyone know when Kevin Rosenberg's b9.com stuff will come back? 20:13:18 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:13:49 francogrex, this should be easy to fix, as it works for MSVC, ans mingw only needs proper ifdeffery. 20:14:45 deepfire, ok do you have a link or can you dcc? 20:15:10 S11001001: there are backups of his projects at http://common-lisp.net/gitweb 20:15:33 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 20:16:15 schoppenhauer_ [n=css@138.246.23.210] has joined #lisp 20:16:26 francogrex, look at src/c/unixint.d, W32_console_ctrl_handler 20:16:31 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.115.194.217] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:16:38 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.177.147] has joined #lisp 20:17:54 deepfire, sorry where is the src/ is it in my ecl folder? 20:18:36 francogrex, are we talking about the ECL source tree? The root of it.. 20:18:45 ok 20:19:41 francogrex, git clone git://ecls.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/ecls/ecl 20:20:15 francogrex, you can use msysgit on windows for that. 20:21:11 -!- schoppenhauer_ [n=css@138.246.23.210] has quit [Client Quit] 20:21:47 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 20:22:14 schoppenhauer_ [n=css@138.246.23.210] has joined #lisp 20:22:24 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 20:22:49 Win32 console control handler again? 20:22:55 -!- schoppenhauer_ [n=css@138.246.23.210] has quit [Client Quit] 20:23:16 yeah 20:24:05 I think that one of the best parts about that is that if you set it to a null handler, SBCL reads it as an EOF. 20:24:14 -!- mgm- [n=mgm@m505e36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:24:42 nyef, do you remember the problem with making SBCL handle that properly? 20:25:04 I remember several problems with making SBCL handle C-c properly. 20:26:21 I have come to the conclusion that I could probably hack it to work less horribly than it does now, but I'm disinclined to do so. 20:27:25 nyef, may I ask you about the nature of these issues? 20:27:39 -!- TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:28:00 vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 20:28:01 Well, one of them is the fundamental lossage which is cygwin signal handling emulation. 20:28:05 -!- vsync_ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:28:21 Doesn't apply if you're using NT emacs or a proper console, I'll admit. 20:28:36 skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has joined #lisp 20:28:37 nyef, does that affect mingw? 20:29:29 Do you mean msys? 20:29:34 I remember hearing it was forked from cygwin, but I'm unsure about the degree of similarity remaining.. 20:29:44 nyef, yes 20:29:57 Another is that the notification from the console control handler comes in on a new short-lifetime thread. 20:30:15 Ouch. 20:30:57 The third is that the notification interrupts any read() from the console, appearing as an EOF. 20:31:09 And I have to run. Back in about 15-30 minutes. 20:31:43 All this sounds way beyond what I could aspire to fix. 20:31:47 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-176-210.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:34:11 -!- vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [K-lined] 20:35:39 mdavid [n=mdavid@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:36:20 deepfire: are u a devloper of a specific implentation? 20:37:07 Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:44 mcspiff [n=user@DC7CB.WPA.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 20:39:55 francogrex, I just occasionally send patches. 20:40:16 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:40:43 Very occasionally. 20:41:37 hey everyone, im writing a very basic assembler... 32 bit instructions, first 6 are the opcode, last 26 are the address (its a MIPS-style jump). So I currently look up my opcode in an a-list, and I have my address. How would I go about smashing these two togeather?:D 20:41:57 krl [i=krille@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:42:44 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:27 mcspiff: #'ash the address and add the opcode? 20:43:36 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:02 I'd say LOGIOR the opcode. 20:44:41 dpb 20:44:52 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-2-71.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:44:58 deepfire, ok 20:45:34 (logior (ash op 5) addr) ? 20:47:07 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit ["Backups are usually a good thing unless it's a sewer."] 20:47:14 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@207.62.246.71] has joined #lisp 20:47:24 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 20:47:29 I second the dpb recommendation 20:47:44 mcspiff, depending on the endianness, yes or no. 20:47:44 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:48:04 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Client Quit] 20:48:09 way easier to read the intention behind the code from that 20:49:08 <_3b> isn't that wrong in either endianness? 20:49:19 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 20:49:19 phosphorus, just heard of it from someone on asm channel? anyoine knows what it is? 20:49:24 _3b, in fact yes :-) 20:49:43 they say it's a joke 20:50:14 *deepfire* is beyond silly today. 20:50:50 francogrex: http://jfm3.org/phosphorous.pdf 20:51:44 yea, i was referred there. but what do you think of it; seems there was a discussio here before 20:51:46 macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:52:06 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.220.98] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:52:10 i think it's hilarious 20:52:22 just read it 20:52:47 francogrex: I didn't say it *was* a joke, I said I *think* it is a joke ;) 20:53:56 It is a very funny read (: 20:56:15 schmx, the style of the article looks quite weird and unappealing 20:56:28 the style.. of the article? 20:57:14 milanj [n=milan@93.87.168.223] has joined #lisp 20:57:41 francogrex: the typesetting's ugliness is on purpose; the footnotes are far from optional. 20:57:43 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:15 "our object system is not bolted on. It's net even close to bolted on." 20:58:17 I love it. 20:58:44 You have to persevere to taste the subtlety! 20:59:11 still unappealing as heck 20:59:31 that's not a way to present something decent 20:59:58 that's funny :) 21:00:08 francogrex: if you think the thing presented is decent, you need your head checked (: 21:01:19 antifuchs, I'm saying the presentation sucjs even for a joke. If it's a joke it's the most boring useless one ever, not even a faint smile. 21:01:20 -!- anekos [n=anekos@pl410.nas925.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:01:37 francogrex: It makes me laugh out loud. 21:01:40 francogrex: too bad that jfm3 fails to amuse you 21:01:41 masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has joined #lisp 21:01:53 we will relay your displeasure 21:02:00 well that's why some women think programmers are *weird* 21:02:01 anekos [n=anekos@pl716.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:02:14 -!- matley [n=matley@151.66.62.82] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:02:15 francogrex: you don't enjoy monty python, right? 21:02:25 no disrespect intended 21:02:29 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:02:31 right 21:02:32 Okay, I'm back again. 21:02:38 I enjoy jerry seinfeld 21:02:53 no monty python 21:03:34 :O 21:03:54 jokes are working that way, if you don't get it, you don't get it 21:04:13 different evaluation environments 21:04:22 some just lack the symbols 21:04:35 anyway since we are off topic, i've been looking like everywher on irc servers toi get a channel for statistics. anyone knows of a good one? 21:04:39 guaqua: maybe it's because his eval doesn't use the lexical env of #lisp 21:06:07 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Client Quit] 21:06:51 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:07:24 fusss: Your tip of yesterday regarding parse-number was spot on. I use that now on my foreign-built strings and get back a rational number that has no loss of precision, and coerce it to exactly my needs. 21:09:12 (setf x (list "1" "2" "3")) (loop for i in x collect i) 21:09:36 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:09:37 (setf x (vector "1" "2" "3")) what is the loop equivalent? 21:09:44 francogrex: on 21:09:51 s/on/no/ 21:10:08 stassats: ? 21:10:13 no equivalent 21:10:35 you can't collect into a vector from a loop syntax 21:10:39 (map 'vector #'identity vector) 21:10:55 ok we'll need map; thx 21:10:56 oh yes, but you can loop on a vector, just collect to a list. 21:11:12 and to loop on a vector you ned ACROSS 21:11:15 s/ned/need/ 21:11:20 Adlai, I k,now; wnated to cellect into a vector 21:11:21 oh it's across? hm, ok. 21:11:46 on is for lists too 21:11:46 francogrex: yeah, so map is probably your friend here. 21:12:00 stassats: right, I remember now; 'on gives you the conses. 21:13:10 across is a lopp keyword? 21:13:17 yes 21:13:48 (loop for i across x collect i) 21:16:46 and then to push into a vector it's vector-push-extend I guess.... Is it an impossible task you think to have something like loop collect for vectors written? 21:17:32 <_3b> francogrex: harder to do efficiently than COLLECT 21:17:44 francogrex: it's very possible, it would just be hard to make it efficient because you'd have to use vector-push-extend unless you *know* how large the output will be 21:18:22 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:18:22 or, I guess you could collect to a list and keep track of the length, and then create a new vector at the end, but that would still be inefficient. 21:18:51 Adlai, yeah, it seems double the work 21:19:05 Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:15 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:19:23 francogrex: where does the data you're collecting come from? unless it's dynamic, your best bet is probably to map. 21:19:44 doing 1-to-1 mapping could be efficient (how was it called? isomorphism?) 21:20:09 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:30 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:20:42 Adlai, sure I'll use map; I'm just wondering w I wonder more about what was going through their heads when they wrote the loop protocol for looping over hash tables... 21:22:35 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:22:41 stassats, only if element x is mapped to y, and not also to z, with z != y, and vice-versa 21:23:11 Adlai: "Well, we already have MAPHASH..." 21:23:20 pkok: ok, but i didn't understand what you said 21:23:56 nyef: right, all we need now is another 5 keywords in the LOOP macro! 21:24:14 pkok: oh, so, it's a homomorphism in general? 21:24:27 stassats, I mean, the mapped function should always return a certain output for a certain input 21:24:43 stassats, if I'm right (that's not that often these days), it is 21:25:07 Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 21:25:33 (let ((counter 0)) (map #'(lambda (x) (incf counter)) some-list)) wouldn't be much of an isomorphism 21:25:49 i always forget all these morphisms, in fact, i never understood them properly 21:26:37 In my first year I thought I understood them 21:26:56 then I did a Logic course at Mathematics and got deeply confused 21:29:11 True math courses apparently are too hard for true AI students 21:29:56 davelambert [n=djl@79-73-148-216.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 21:30:05 pkok, you majored in AI? 21:30:20 Still busy getting my BSc 21:30:35 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:30:42 is that 'hard' AI or machine learning type stuff? 21:30:48 -!- davelambert [n=djl@79-73-148-216.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has left #lisp 21:30:48 And no, lisp isn't taught. Prolog, C and Java are. 21:30:56 "AI is hard, let's go shopping!" 21:31:04 malcolm_reynolds, define 'hard' AI 21:31:32 in the main, stuff that isnt probabilistic... graphplan and so on 21:31:39 pkok: seems to be everywhere these days 21:31:43 as opposed to supervised / unsupervised learning, bayesian stuff, etc. 21:31:52 Yeah, we do too 21:33:00 -!- rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:33:01 basically the stuff in norvig PAIP is what I think of as hard ai 21:33:03 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:33:21 What about the stuff in AIMA? Is that softer? 21:33:35 haven't read that 21:33:42 I thought you meant things like "deep semantics" 21:33:50 haven't read all of paip for that matter, but what I have read is pretty old school stuff 21:33:54 bayesian stuff... I have tried to read PAIP, that's very tough stuff 21:33:54 haven't read both 21:34:20 I tried to read AIMA but failed to make sufficient sense of it. I'm planning to make another go of it at some point. 21:34:28 minion, AIMA? 21:34:28 AIMA: AIMA is Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach, http://aima.cs.berkeley.edu 21:34:42 oh wait, read parts of AIMA 21:35:07 Didn't really liked it 21:35:08 yeah so from the contents, what I consider hard AI is probably the first 4 parts of aima 21:35:12 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:35:21 s/liked/like 21:35:45 malcolm_reynolds, Yup, first and second year 21:36:01 Third year is more machine learning 21:36:06 cool. where you studying? 21:36:21 -!- masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:36:27 oh, part 7 is somewhere throughout all three years 21:36:29 serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-157-146.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:36:31 University of Amsterdam 21:36:51 nice. i'm doing machine learning (MSc) at University College London 21:36:56 pkok, caan yoiu concentarte on your studies in amsterdam? 21:36:58 Cool 21:37:04 -!- serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-150-213.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:37:05 francogrex: haha 21:37:14 too many distractions 21:37:23 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:37:32 francogrex, Sure, I grew up here 21:37:39 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:38:03 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:06 francogrex: why would amsterdam be a problem? 21:38:24 Because of the "tourist attractions"... 21:38:24 pkok, ok i guess you're jaded with all the drugging and hooring going on in those streets 21:38:56 pkok: they are _tourist_ attractions :) 21:39:04 Never used any soft or hard drugs besides in a hospital :) 21:39:31 anyway to give credits to amsterdam, it's one of the nicest cities in europe 21:39:43 You've ever visited? 21:39:48 along with Rome 21:39:55 pkok, sure 21:40:12 Rome's cool too 21:40:57 francogrex, you're from Belgium? 21:41:26 yeah... 21:41:31 unfortunately 21:41:34 Flanders or Wallonia? 21:41:59 ik speek geen nederlands 21:42:04 spreek 21:42:13 wallonia 21:42:23 k :) 21:42:40 je ne parle pas français :) 21:42:48 Vous etes donc francophone? 21:43:04 i speak Lisp 21:43:04 skeptomai, i guess 21:43:07 heh 21:43:15 i'd rather speak lisp indeed 21:43:28 well put, and back on topic :) 21:43:40 skeptomai, I'm not, I'm really _really_ Dutch 21:43:47 -!- macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["."] 21:44:00 quick question, I'm sure i've read this somewhere, but is there an easy equivalent of C/java break to get out of a loop (specifically a dotimes loop)? I know I could do #'return-from to get out of the whole function but I don't really want to do that.. 21:44:19 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-17-7.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:44:39 malcolm_reynolds: just return 21:44:55 dotimes implicitly establish block named NIL 21:44:58 like in te do loop 21:45:10 ah. damn, i knew it was obvious. thanks! 21:45:39 http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/mac_dotimes.html 21:45:47 (handy copy of HyperSpec) 21:46:09 clhs dotimes 21:46:09 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_dotime.htm 21:46:12 is more handy 21:46:18 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 21:46:18 truly 21:46:40 so am I right in thinking the hyperspec is an expanded version of the last official ANSI spec? 21:46:48 -!- Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:46:50 ok guys need to go now; been chatting and neglecting my tasks 21:47:07 malcolm_reynolds: it's not expanded 21:47:20 ah right, i thought it was something slightly expanded that lispworks put together 21:47:34 -!- francogrex [n=franco@201.234-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:47:54 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:59 well, it includes also draft proposals, but they aren't part of the standard 21:48:26 okay. but can i reasonably rely on everything the hyperspec being true of most major implementations (specifically sbcl, for the moment)? 21:49:25 clhs is the de facto standard 21:49:54 ok 21:53:26 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-4.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:54:24 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:56:44 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@207.62.246.71] has quit [] 21:59:31 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:02:04 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:03:17 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:03:21 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:03:24 There's a CL persistence library called something like XYCD - I forget the name - what is it again? 22:03:46 bknr - aah never mind 22:04:15 clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 22:05:53 -!- mdavid [n=mdavid@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:06:51 ... XCVB, XYCD, XKCD... I'm sensing a trend here... 22:10:52 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has quit [No route to host] 22:11:30 stassats, it's much better than a de facto standard -- the latter is what Python/Ruby/etc folks have. 22:11:38 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-2-71.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:11:57 malcolm_reynolds: "hyperspec" = hyperlinked specification... it extends the book by adding hyperlinks :) 22:13:09 -!- krl [i=krille@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has left #lisp 22:13:15 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:14:16 deepfire: I wouldn't call "read the source for matzruby" a standard. 22:15:18 dalton [n=user7994@187.34.44.222] has joined #lisp 22:15:19 pkhuong, the problem with the word "standard" is that it is so vague as to enable these people call their status quo as "having a standard".. 22:15:22 pkhuong: not to side with the enemy, but there is documentation for the standard ruby stuff 22:15:40 s/enemy/pathetic excuse for competition/ 22:15:58 Adlai, yes, and it "evolves" in incompatible ways with every version? 22:16:27 well, when everyone is following one implementation, you can call that implementation the standard one. 22:16:31 That's not a substitute for a language /specification/, but a "standard" it may be. 22:16:51 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:19:31 yeah, it's a bit funny/sad/pathetic to see what's happening with, for example, Python, that has several different 22:19:47 "current" versions out there... 2.4, 2.6, 3... 22:20:16 Google's project to improve Python has to work with 2.6 because they don't want to be incompatible by using Python 3. 22:20:33 Adlai, the real fun starts when several implementations emerge.. 22:20:46 -!- Pb_ [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit [Client Quit] 22:21:24 deepfire: you mean if for example Jython, IronPython, BDFL Python, and "Unladen Swallow" each diverge in their own directions? oh boy. 22:22:11 there's lots of software which has multiple implementations, but one of them is considered the standard 22:22:49 often the standard one is overtaken after the thing it's implementing is mature enough, of course 22:23:37 SMTP->sendmail, DNS->bind, IMAP->uwimap, Python->CPython, C++->cfront, etc. 22:24:12 sendmail->postfix, uwimap->dovecot, and so on :) 22:24:47 You don't see many sites using sendmail these days, it seems. 22:26:06 You'd have to be seriously insane to setup a new installation of sendmail these days. :) 22:26:32 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-17-7.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:26:49 Or deep in love with sendmail.cf. 22:27:01 I don't think that's an "Or" 22:27:22 Right. :) 22:27:45 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r2r126.net.upc.cz] has quit ["GNU is *indeed* No UNIX!"] 22:29:31 foom: cfront? 22:29:56 google? 22:30:10 internet? 22:30:24 never heard of that 22:30:32 probably just some fad 22:31:01 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:31:08 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:31:41 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.168.223] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:33:14 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:36:57 Question: I have a vague memory that someone worked on the idea of creating lisp images that have a swank server in them that can be connected to remotely. Does anyone have a pointer to anything about this? 22:37:29 why do you need to work on it? 22:37:45 it should work straightforwardly 22:38:24 load swank, dump image with swank:create-server as a top-level function 22:39:55 -!- Lacrymology [n=Tomas@200.69.219.97] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:43:39 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:46:43 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:47:14 stassats: Can we start a lisp process, do swank:create-server, have it go off and do stuff and then connect to it later? That's great! 22:48:12 what's "go off"? 22:49:08 Be deployed on a martian probe. 22:52:15 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 22:52:42 mmondor [n=mmondor@ip216-239-92-102.vif.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:55 -!- pkok [n=patrick@f102140.upc-f.chello.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:53:45 i wouldn't send slime with a martian probe 22:54:12 is it possible to connect to it through cusp? 22:54:57 does cusp use swank? 22:56:28 it does, in what fashion, i don't know 22:56:31 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:56:42 stassats: I couldn't see it in the settings in my quick glimpse of the configuration of it, which is why I wonder. I do think it uses slime 22:56:51 oh no, that must be rubbish 22:57:34 yes, it uses swank, I think... but if I recall correctly, you need to enter the path to the lisp executable 22:58:38 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 22:59:44 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:04:33 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:04:40 madnificent: why do you need Eclipse? 23:04:57 forget about it, use Emacs and be happy 23:07:08 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:07:10 stassats: By go off I mean "start this up from a shell, and later hook an emacs onto it." 23:07:25 rpg: should be ok 23:07:49 also note :dont-close option 23:07:49 stassats: Probably I need to figure out how the port is assigned, but that shouldn't be too bad. 23:08:06 stassats: it isn't me, it is my co-worker... and I don't think he can learn emacs at the same time within the time-span 23:08:16 rpg: well, by OS, or you can pass :port option 23:09:23 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 23:09:28 no, not by OS by default 23:09:32 stassats: Thanks. Now all I need to do (should not take long) is figure out how to attach slime to this, and I'm there. Thank you very much! 23:09:48 M-x slime-connect RET ip RET port 23:09:50 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 23:10:50 ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:38 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 23:13:43 host on which swank listens is defaulted to 127.0.0.1, and if you want secure remote communications, use ssh tunnel 23:15:04 stassats: thanks. This is a machine to which we tunnel already, so we can just tunnel another port. This is excellent. I appreciate the help. With your assistance I was able to grab the source... 23:17:24 rpg: and look at this also: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Setting-up-pathname-translations.html 23:18:20 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@host-245-3.pubnet.pdx.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:19:17 saikat [n=saikat@c-76-21-43-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:20 it doesn't mention that you need to load slime-tramp contrib first 23:19:39 bunz [n=bunz@unaffiliated/bunz] has joined #lisp 23:19:39 stassats: and besides that: yes emacs really is the superior way of editing lisp code. It is faster to complete, search, debug and whatever-you-can-think-of lisp code 23:20:48 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:24:20 -!- nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:25:06 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 23:26:30 -!- mmondor [n=mmondor@ip216-239-92-102.vif.net] has quit ["brb"] 23:27:29 sad0ur_ [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 23:28:46 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:31:44 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:49 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 23:34:20 -!- saikat is now known as saikat2 23:39:16 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 23:40:33 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:41:50 mmondor [n=mmondor@ip216-239-92-102.vif.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:20 nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:09 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590f84c6.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:44:11 -!- saikat2 is now known as saikat 23:44:52 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 23:45:39 malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:47:12 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:53:48 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 23:56:07 rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 23:59:10 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."]