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has joined #lisp 01:48:57 -!- slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-134-192.3g.claro.net.br] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:49:20 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 01:50:29 -!- Nietecht [n=chatzill@78-21-244-98.access.telenet.be] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.12/2009070611]"] 01:54:29 I noticed that sbcl emits an unecessary mov in (dotimes (i 1000000000)) 01:54:40 copies the counter to another register before comparing 01:55:11 slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-187-71.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 02:00:21 kidd1 [n=kidd@88.Red-88-16-71.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:07 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:28 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:11:24 -!- kidd [n=kidd@183.Red-88-9-113.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:13:34 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-112.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:40 -!- ramus` 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[Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 03:05:51 -!- philipp__ [n=philipp@154-123.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:06:36 slava: gearing up to finally crush SBCL and its gloating fanboys? 03:07:02 -!- rbancrof1 is now known as rbancroft 03:07:58 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:08:21 not even slava can crush the twinkle from a hopeful eye! 03:08:30 well, perhaps with suitable boots 03:09:01 -!- ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:10:52 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:58 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:33 hefner: python is a really good compiler considering it was designed before all the cool stuff was invented 03:12:48 heh. 03:14:54 a work of magic, held together by the blood, sweat, and tears of countless hackers, which might unravel at any second without warning? 03:15:04 pretty much :) 03:15:27 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-205-123.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:44 I wonder if sbcl is the most advanced compiler written in a dynamic language 03:16:46 -!- Borbus [i=borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:17:24 -!- gko [n=Keca@211.21.137.140] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:17:41 Borbus [i=borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:50 dragging compiler technology into the 80s 03:19:20 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:19:22 one thing I haven't wrapped my head around is sbcl's code for boxing, unboxing and storage representation decisions 03:22:31 I think nowadays it would be better done with global value numbering 03:22:42 so you simplify (unbox (box x)) => x 03:23:44 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-205-123.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:24:16 heh 03:24:22 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Global_value_numbering&diff=280862493&oldid=268363271 03:24:27 slava: storage representation decisions come as a side-effect of trying to reduce the costs of moving values. ISTM that problem can be reduced to spilling much more accurately than GVN, which doesn't seem very useful for global optimisation. 03:25:02 pkhuong: I guess this comes into play if hte same value is used in two places, one boxed and one unboxed? 03:25:05 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-96-121.lns10.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:24 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-28-200.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:33 hefner: wow, that's a retarded edit 03:26:22 right, or with assignments. Rewriting rules seem like a simple 80% solution, but I'm always afraid of unintended side-effects since the systems tend not to be confluent. 03:26:52 gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 03:27:34 what about with SSA? 03:28:01 hefner: I fixed the typo fix, what's the bet this will start an edit war? 03:28:13 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-8-202.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 03:29:21 Same problem across bblocks. 03:32:16 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:33:01 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 03:33:02 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 03:33:16 girzel [n=user@61.51.238.208] has joined #lisp 03:37:07 Suttonian [n=Suttonia@5ac8249b.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 03:38:07 slyrus___ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-155.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:13 re the wikipedia edit, there's been some work (now dead, AFAICT) on probabilistic GVN. In that case, probably would be right (: 03:40:06 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-112.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:40:18 -!- slyrus___ is now known as slyrus_ 03:40:59 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-119.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:39 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-192-145.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:52 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:42:32 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 03:47:19 I'm not convinced that box/unbox pattern matching can be directly applied to fixnum arithmetic (or other representation choices where multiple representations can be operated on). I'd be surprised if fixnum + was implemented as (box (+ (unbox x) (unbox y))). 03:48:20 I was talking about floats mostly 03:48:30 are there ever cases where you want to 'unbox' fixnums? 03:48:36 assuming a tagged representation of course 03:49:27 Mixed fixnum/int arithmetic, some operations on bits, indexing in vectors with a small stride. 03:51:18 Actually, implementing fixnum+ as the above, with a peephole pass after rewriting, might work well enough. 03:51:21 spacebat1 [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-200-144.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:23 so what's the general idea behind chosing representations then? 03:51:37 I don't see a direct relation with spilling 03:53:15 spilling already captures the idea that values can be converted to/from a boxed representation 03:53:20 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-28-200.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:54:40 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-96-121.lns10.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:55:06 (stack <-> registers), along with the fact that it's sometimes possible to directly operate on the stack without moving the value back in registers, and that other operations can only operate on stack (calls) or in registers. 03:57:56 so is it the same code as spilling or just the same idea? 03:57:59 Smart spilling algorithms will even avoid spilling a value to the stack (box the value) multiple times if the in-register and on-stack values haven't been modified. 03:58:26 I think the algorithms can be used nearly verbatim. 03:59:54 For floats though, you don't really need to interact with instruction selection. It pretty much always makes sense to work with raw floats if you can. 04:00:30 I can think of pathological cases though; (+ x y) is computed outside of a loop, and the result is stored in a location inside a loop; you don't want to box it every time 04:01:37 right 04:02:19 But as soon as even one float operation is performed on that value, such cases become much more rare. 04:02:27 right 04:03:33 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:35 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:04:46 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 04:05:18 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-192-145.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:06:02 I'm inclined to think that all of these automatic optimizations need to be able to be manually specifiable. 04:06:37 If you can express what you believe ought not be boxed, then the compiler can comply or tell you to go to hell. 04:06:44 Did you get the shuffle algorithm working as you wished, btw? I was thinking that it might make sense to use dead variables as temporaries if you have cycles that include values on the stack (XCHG is then potentially more expensive due to the implicit LOCK). 04:06:57 pkhuong: yeah I did 04:07:10 the shuffles are generated before register allocation so grabbing a fresh temporary is not a problem 04:07:14 I never did anything with exchances 04:07:55 1 temporary and 1 more move in the worst case. 04:08:22 2 additional moves/cycle, actually. 04:12:03 -!- spacebat1 [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-200-144.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:16:04 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:16:09 -!- vsync [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:16:40 vsync [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 04:33:24 -!- Suttonian [n=Suttonia@5ac8249b.bb.sky.com] has left #lisp 04:33:50 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:36:21 -!- chii [i=chii@freenode/bot/chii] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 04:37:18 c|mell [n=cmell@y192015.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 04:42:27 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 04:44:35 -!- beach` is now known as beach 04:44:54 Good morning. 04:51:06 morning beach 04:52:14 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:59:28 pkhuong: are there compiler optimizations which create irreducible CFGs if the language has no gotos? 05:02:26 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:03:47 jchicas [n=jchicas@138smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 05:04:53 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@138smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit [Client Quit] 05:05:51 jchicas [n=jchicas@138smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 05:08:50 |Trickster| [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has joined #lisp 05:23:00 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 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joined #lisp 08:37:42 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 08:43:40 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 08:46:12 -!- vandemar [i=holy@2001:470:1f10:56b:0:0:0:4] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:47:19 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:47:38 serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-155-208.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:47:59 -!- serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-182-240.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:49:50 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:50:07 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A25E3.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:51:41 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has quit [] 08:53:52 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has joined #lisp 08:56:12 anyone know if user rpg has changed their nick? 08:56:22 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 08:57:56 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 08:58:26 vandemar [i=rings@2001:470:1f10:56b:0:0:0:4] has joined #lisp 08:58:42 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:58:44 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:59:47 nunb: doesn't look that way, but he hasn't been on for a few days. 09:01:20 Ok, thanks. I saw a rpg_ and prg_ perhaps, so wondered. I had the same SLIME beef as him and fixed it, so.. 09:03:50 great! 09:06:17 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F609.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:23 -!- russell_ [n=russell_@bonneville.tdb.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:16:14 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-216-219.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:42 Axioplas1 [n=Axioplas@130.34.188.206] has joined #lisp 09:17:52 ho-humm, I didn't know it was forbidden to bind CL-defined functions locally 09:18:20 it's quite surprising actually 09:18:41 -!- Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:19:52 -!- Axioplas1 [n=Axioplas@130.34.188.206] has quit [Client Quit] 09:19:57 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 09:21:24 -!- stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:22:14 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@89.180.25.113] has joined #lisp 09:22:15 russell_ [n=russell_@bonneville.tdb.com] has joined #lisp 09:24:25 mathrick: consider the use of a macro which expands into a call to a CL-defined function 09:24:30 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:24:40 mathrick: if you allow local rebinding, you can never use such a macro safely 09:25:15 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-213.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 09:25:35 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:25:57 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 09:26:55 Xof: yes, I thought about that a bit later 09:27:06 we'd need scheme-style hygienic macros for that 09:28:00 heh, the chronicity website hangs for a "five months ago" query :) 09:28:44 (I tried it yesterday already but it didn't understand "five months ago from tomorrow" or similar) 09:29:00 which incidentally was determined as the case where hygienic macros are strictly more powerful than nonhygienic ones in the cll discussion, if I'm remembering correctly 09:29:39 CL library for loading vorbis? 09:30:41 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:30:58 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:31:44 hmm. lispbuilder will work it seems. 09:34:03 michaelw: ooh, I see why it only dies on five months and nothing else :) 09:36:09 seven months from now works, too, obviously 09:36:32 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:42:20 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:42:55 -!- angerman [n=angerman@d167.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 09:44:17 Cptlukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@ip216-239-88-144.vif.net] has joined #lisp 09:45:43 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:48:50 moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 09:51:51 -!- Cptlukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@ip216-239-88-144.vif.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:00:50 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-97-94.w86-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:06:21 mathrick pasted "CONSTANTP question" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84366 10:06:44 CONSTANTP could legally return T here, right? 10:08:37 mathrick, yes but no implementation does anything good with constantp afaik 10:10:59 mathrick: Remember that constantp is about variable names. 10:11:02 SBCL folds literal constants at least, but not constant bindings 10:11:12 It is not about bindings. 10:11:17 hmm? 10:11:20 could you explain? 10:11:24 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229079165.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:11:51 If you have (defconstant env 10), then it means that every occurrence of the name env can be replaced with the value 10. 10:12:06 Here is the a property of the name, not of the value. 10:12:19 Of course, the value is supposed to be eql with itself, etc. 10:12:28 (let ((x 7)) (zerop x)). 10:12:44 this is given as an example of a CONSTANTP form in the spec 10:12:57 Maybe I'm confused -- let me check. 10:12:59 Zhivago: so no, CONSTANTP is about forms, not variable names 10:14:11 It's about forms which are effectively names as I've said above. 10:14:35 It isn't about unrebindability, if that makes sense. 10:14:53 umm, see above and my example 10:15:35 In your example, the implementation has decided that (zerop 7) is a constant name for the value nil, and so you can replace all occurrences of (zerop 7) with nil. 10:16:17 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 10:16:33 and you would notice that my example gives (+ a b), both of which are of known values 10:16:44 example == paste now 10:19:10 Your example produces (constantp (+ 10 20) #) doesn't it? Which will become (constantp 30 #) 10:19:24 Is that what you intend? 10:19:53 yes, because I want to know the legality of CONSTANTP returning T here 10:19:57 which it doesn't in SBCL 10:20:16 Since 30 is self-evaluating ... 10:20:29 try it 10:20:39 it returns NIL 10:22:08 Ah, I think your macrolet is completely stuffed. 10:23:13 right 10:24:00 Which binding of A and B do you expect the macro body to use? 10:25:11 none, but I expect them to be bound to 10 and 20 inside ENV 10:25:16 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:26:05 Why? 10:26:57 Remember that your macro is going to expand before the let is evaluated. 10:27:16 benny` [n=benny@i577A1F2A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:27:36 umm, because that's the apparent lexical environment? 10:27:48 what else'd &environment be useful for? 10:28:30 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 10:28:33 Well, it's not useful for looking into the future. 10:28:55 It might be able to tell you that A and B are lexical bindings here. 10:29:23 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 10:30:13 Zhivago: uhh, what I'm asking is "if you know A is bound to 10 and B to 20, can you tell if (+ A B) is a constant expression?" 10:31:25 If you figure it out, you should be able to know that. sbcl is under no obligation to figure it out in such a way that constantp can work that out from the environment. 10:31:39 So, I think sbcl is within its rights to return nil. 10:32:07 and I'm within my rights to ask if returning T there would be legal according to the spec 10:32:19 If you're saying that you think that sbcl ought to be able to return T in this case, if it cared enough, then I agree. 10:32:24 but thanks for taking half an hour to tell me that 10:33:37 angerman [n=angerman@d201.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 10:33:53 the macroexpand environment doesn't include runtime lexical bindings 10:34:05 ok 10:34:07 I don't think any implementation can return T there 10:34:11 or not any sane one 10:34:20 Xof: thanks, that was exactly what I wanted to know 10:34:32 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@y192015.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:35:24 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-241-91.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:35:31 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:35:35 -!- benny` is now known as benny 10:35:38 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:36:55 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:41:52 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181148156.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:43:33 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@66.235.80.184] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:43:54 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:55:19 -!- masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:55:37 -!- girzel [n=user@61.51.238.208] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:55:58 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has left #lisp 10:56:33 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12:02:02 -!- cracki [n=cracki@40-123.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:05:18 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:06:21 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 12:06:41 antoszka_ [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 12:07:31 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:08:03 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-50-13.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:08:14 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:09:17 legumbre_, ? 12:09:49 aabbcc_ [n=sdfgsdfd@77.85.231.116] has joined #lisp 12:10:10 How to copyright my software? Only by putting copyright notice in the about window? Is that enough? 12:11:24 -!- antoszka_ is now known as antoszka 12:12:33 aabbcc_: You don't have to do anything. Your software is automatically copyright. 12:13:10 -!- Guest11264 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 12:13:13 k 12:13:41 (provided your country signed the Berne convention) 12:15:44 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 12:16:29 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-241-91.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:16:37 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:18:10 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:42 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [] 12:18:46 pkok [n=patrick@f102140.upc-f.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 12:20:59 That's why licensing it so that people can use it is important. No license, no can use. 12:25:43 they still can use, just not making changes in the source code or making copies 12:26:29 That's correct, yes. 12:26:30 aabbcc_: under law they can't 12:26:35 p_l: ? 12:26:38 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-26-229.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:26:49 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:26:49 beach: depends on local law's definition of how it was acquired 12:27:28 p_l: Sure, if you acquired it and agreed to further restrictions, that's another problem. 12:27:52 beach: there's this thing that "installing" might be considered "making a copy" without license 12:27:59 aabbcc: If they don't have a license, they can't do a damned thing with it, generally speaking. 12:28:01 Well to execute it you need to _copy_ it, first in the RAM, then in the L2-cache, then in the L1-cache, then in the IR. Bad bad bad. You'd have to pay royalties for 5 copies! 12:28:05 p_l: indeed. 12:28:08 i just want to release my program on internet, is there any problem if it's copyrighted? 12:28:20 aabbcc: It's always copyrighted. 12:28:23 p_l: but I don't think that holds water in most places. 12:28:31 aabbcc: Slap on a bsd style license or something. 12:28:33 aabbcc_: go with MIT license or WTFPL eventually just say "public domain" 12:28:38 aabbcc_: just sticka GPL license, and fly! 12:29:05 matimago: GPL requires more understanding of copyright law, I think 12:29:05 aabbcc: A license which says "I license you to do whatever the hell you want." 12:29:54 gpl allows making changes in source code! 12:29:58 that's WTFPL, also known as "public domain" in many countries (in some places authorship laws are slightly different) 12:30:09 aabbcc_: MIT, BSD, WTFPL etc. also do that 12:30:10 aabbcc: Don't you want that? 12:30:20 ofcourse not 12:30:34 aabbcc: Well, then pick a license which doesn't allow that ... 12:30:37 They you want to write a more restrictive license. 12:30:38 aabbcc_: then welcome into warm embrace of finding a working "freeware" license :P 12:30:44 Eg. a commercial license. 12:31:27 aabbcc_: You could also say that if anybody makes changes in the code, then they can't distribute their copy as your code -- something similar to how TeX is licensed, maybe. 12:31:44 well, isn't just easier to copyright the program? ok, i'll check those commercial licenses 12:31:58 aabbcc_: the program is already copyright because you wrote it. 12:32:01 aabbcc_: it is impossible not to copyright a program. 12:32:25 aabbcc_: I think you need to read your country's copyright laws. In many places there's no such thing as "no copyright" and you can't "copyright a program" 12:32:29 Now, the question is what permissions do you want to give to people/companies that wish to use your code. 12:33:22 no, i don't want to give permissions to use my code, i just want to give permission to use the program... 12:33:35 obviously 12:34:37 Um, so why are you distributing the code? 12:34:39 aabbcc_: really, start by reading apriopriate legal documents 12:34:55 aabbcc_: Do you want people to be able to _read_ your code, to learn from it? If not, consider distributing just binaries (compiled code) rather than the source to your program. 12:35:12 *p_l* had to read the whole damned copyright law, once 12:35:43 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:35:49 it's a .net application, anyone can read the code easily, i don't think there's such thing like "distributing just binaries" for .net application 12:35:53 got some surprising results out of that 12:36:08 I'm pretty certain that copyrightable things are copyright by default in all Berne signatories 12:36:22 p_l: which country's copyright law? 12:36:23 aham 12:36:24 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:36:30 aabbcc_: erm, most .NET applications are distributed as just the binaries 12:36:41 Well, then license them to use and copy the program, but not to change it. 12:36:47 aabbcc_: 1) Off-Topic completely 2) you distribute a binary for machine known as "CLR", not source code (there are obfuscators to make it harder to decompile, as well) 12:36:59 Should be a bunch of 'share-ware licenses' out there like that. 12:37:09 Adlai: Poland. Had to do that for a lesson in first or second year of HS 12:37:18 and then you have great fun bundling all the requisite .NET life support machinery :) 12:37:31 p_l: In high school! wow... I guess it would prepare people well for the "real world" though... 12:37:45 aabbcc_: Is this even a Lisp application? 12:38:00 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has joined #lisp 12:38:06 no 12:38:08 Adlai: Math-I.T.-Physics profile :) 12:38:12 Adlai: well, that 0.1% of people who will ever need to have anything to do with copyright, anyway:) 12:38:32 Oh, I dunno -- blogs and so on are pretty common these days. 12:40:00 rsynnott: I learned some interesting stuff this way - like that it's completely legit for me to download movies/music etc. from IRC, while it might be illegal to use MPlayer with my legally bought DVDs 12:40:10 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 12:40:47 rsynnott: nowadays, it's not that hard to get on the wrong side of copyright law. 12:41:17 I found it harder to stay on the "right" side, so I stopped caring to an extent 12:42:33 it's not lisp, it's not free software -- how is it on topic for #lisp@freenode? 12:42:42 aabbcc_: I'd say that you should distribute a compiled and/or obfuscated version of your program, read a bit about your country's copyright laws, and if you're still confused, ask other .NET developers how they distribute their apps. I doubt you'll have much luck here on #lisp. 12:43:41 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["brb"] 12:43:54 aabbcc_: you might also want to learn copyright laws of countries you are going to target with your app... sometimes, you might find out that their copyright law nullifies some of points of your license 12:44:46 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 12:45:08 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-119-68.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:36 p_l: that generally only happens with unusually restrictive licenses 12:46:14 (though it's a problem for distributing things like windows pre-installed on computers) 12:47:11 rsynnott: it happens with all EULA's in Poland, due to reverse-engineering being allowed directly by copyright law - you can't remove that right from user through a license 12:47:22 *Adlai* wonders why aabbcc_ came here for his questions in the first place. 12:47:48 Adlai: I plame GUI irc clients. 12:48:02 matimago: hehe, but why? 12:48:11 I've got a random question, yes, I know I'll click on a random channel in the list. 12:48:25 *blame 12:48:41 My b fell off the baseline... 12:50:07 aabbcc_: out of curiosity, why did you come here? Seriously, I'm curious... was it as matimago suspects? 12:54:23 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:45 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 12:54:51 -!- tsuru is now known as Guest70318 12:55:23 -!- Guest70318 [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:55:35 coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has joined #lisp 12:56:32 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:57:52 my question is not .net related 12:58:07 It's not Lisp related either. 12:58:33 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-216-219.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:59:34 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has quit [] 12:59:37 so why not on #legal-douchebaggery ? (I don't like copyright law, so what?) 13:02:11 http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=recursion <--- look closely... 13:02:31 very funny 13:04:25 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:05:20 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 13:06:38 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 13:06:45 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Client Quit] 13:06:54 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 13:06:59 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:07:34 slava: trivially, tail calls between local functions will give you arbitrary CFGs (: 13:07:38 On a serious and very much CL-related note, is there a way to access, within a restart, the error being handled, without that error being explicitly passed to the restart with invoke-restart? 13:07:46 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 13:08:17 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:09:11 I've got a handler at a high-level that calls #'continue, and I'm trying to make a 'continue restart for certain cases where there's no such restart available by default, and have that restart print out the error information. 13:09:29 Is this possible? Misguided? spaghetti-code? 13:10:58 Adlai: wouldn't you want the error logger to be in the handler instead of the restart? 13:12:39 (tagbody (with-simple-restart (continue "go on") (maybe-error-here) (go :ok)) (print-stuff) :ok) 13:13:07 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:14:01 dlowe: Yeah, I guess so. It just means that the handler won't be as nice as (condition #'continue) anymore... 13:14:25 nikodemus: hm? That doesn't exactly do what I want... I think I'm taking dlowe's suggestion. 13:18:26 -!- PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:18:51 -!- hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit ["leaving"] 13:19:12 -!- rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:20:16 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:20:49 -!- aabbcc_ [n=sdfgsdfd@77.85.231.116] has quit [Client Quit] 13:20:53 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-134.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:21:09 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:21:12 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 13:21:27 does s-sql somehow support the calling of a postgresql function? 13:22:04 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:23:08 does anyone have examples of good support for Unicode-like tasks in Lisp (where by that I mean basically everything other than external-format support)? 13:23:43 minion: tell Xof about cl-unicode 13:23:44 Xof: look at cl-unicode: CL-UNICODE is a library which provides Common Lisp implementations with knowledge about Unicode characters including their name, their general category, the scripts and blocks they belong to, their numerical value, and several other properties. http://www.cliki.net/cl-unicode 13:23:55 ediware ^^ 13:25:26 HG` [n=wells@xdsleb180.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:26:33 OK, but not "tasks" 13:27:29 well, it would definitely help with that 13:27:40 dunno how babel fits in that 13:27:57 I was thinking about things like collation, bidirectional layout, and so on -- that would clearly need access to character database properties like cl-unicode exposes 13:27:59 babel is pretty much external-formats 13:28:04 ah, babel only does encode/decode 13:28:29 From the list of stuff I'd need in Xuriella and can't do in Lisp yet: upcasing, downcasing, sorting. 13:28:34 normalization, unicode-friendly string comparison 13:29:01 (Also unicode-ish, but perhaps not related to your question: enumerating things in various language-specific number formats, presumably using funny unicode characters.) 13:29:03 Babel should probably do normalization at some point, sounds within its scope. 13:29:24 or maybe not. 13:29:44 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:29:45 Xof: nothing like that. the best there was(but now abandoned) is cl-icu 13:29:46 The only example of good support for this (the former part at least) I know is Allegro, which may or may not help you. 13:29:59 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.15] has joined #lisp 13:30:02 (Might help you if you want to steal API ideas, won't help you if looking for code.) 13:30:08 I'm after API ideas 13:30:28 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 13:30:30 since you look like a user, maybe I should look at casing and sorting 13:31:02 -!- angerman [n=angerman@d201.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 13:32:36 *Xof* ponders using the high bits of the simple-array-character header for something 13:33:36 normalization flag? 13:33:44 something like that 13:33:50 interacts quite badly with (setf char), of course 13:33:51 all-actually-in-base-char-range bit? 13:34:40 lichtblau: can you point me to the functionality that Xuriella needs? 13:34:47 Xof: cl-l10n has space for some of these features... for example i have it on my TODO (somewhere deep) to process the CLDR info about sorting and provide a language dependent sort function 13:35:12 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:01 unfortunately the TODO is not yet cleared... but the CLDR xml's have some potentially useful information regarding these and cl-l10n has the infrastructure to process those xml's already 13:36:47 Out of curiosity... I understand the difference between handler-case and handler-bind, but what's the difference between restart-case and restart-bind? I've been looking at clhs, and it looks like the only difference is that one accepts functions, and the other one takes a lambda list and body and builds the lambda itself. Am I missing something? 13:38:28 aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host249-98-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:40:35 blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:43:03 rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 13:44:22 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-97-94.w86-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:44:46 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-194.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:33 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 13:47:42 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 13:47:50 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:49:39 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [] 13:50:11 ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 13:50:30 -!- philipp [n=philipp@124-115.0-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["leaving"] 13:51:06 angerman [n=angerman@e093.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 13:51:10 restart-case treats ERROR as the first form specially, associating the restarts with the signalled condition 13:52:01 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:05 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 13:54:33 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:55:11 So this has something to do with the :test functions for the restarts? 13:56:08 no, it's an extra with-condition-restarts 13:56:22 (which might just be the single hardest thing to wrap your head around in CL) 13:56:54 c|mell [n=cmell@p9035-ipngn101marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:57:30 -!- ausente [n=user7994@189-19-116-243.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:57:39 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 13:58:16 So the associations created by with-condition-restarts are separate from the :test function of restarts? 13:58:39 :test has nothing to do with the associations 13:59:10 fantasticsid [n=fantasti@116.235.180.45] has joined #lisp 13:59:15 *Adlai* looks at :test again... 13:59:23 -!- aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host249-98-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:59:38 aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host249-98-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:59:49 basically, the neatest way to specify restarts is to use (restart-case (error ...) ...) 14:00:26 it kind of has something to do with the associations, doesn't it? 14:00:30 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-46-58.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:00 also, restarts are often useful at dynamic contours a long way away from a signalled error 14:01:07 applicability vs. assicuated 14:01:19 quite true 14:01:25 (iirc, the conditions visible are those associated with the specific condition and those associated with no condition) 14:01:52 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:01:58 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:58 (compute-restarts) => all applicable restarts 14:02:17 (compute-restarts condition) => all applicable associated restarts 14:02:28 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@40-123.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 14:02:30 well, maybe those are not the exact clhs terms 14:02:41 but the first is a superset of the second 14:02:49 nikodemus: no, I think they are the correct terms. 14:03:06 And you can use :test to make a condition invisible from the second list? 14:03:19 (ie, from (compute-restarts condition)) 14:03:59 unless you use WITH-CONDITION-RESTARTS or (RESTART-CASE (ERROR ...) ...) your restarts will never appear in the second list 14:04:05 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 14:04:25 in practical terms the second means: "give me restarts that we associated with this specific condition when it was signalled" 14:05:13 and the first: "give me all restarts that any caller on stack between me and the error saw fit to provide" 14:05:21 Xof: 1. A string comparison function, taking a language specification and a boolean saying whether lower case characters come before upper case characters or vice versa, as specified in http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt#sorting. 14:05:33 (IIRC I couldn't figure out the details of what "lower-first" and "upper-first" actually mean and instead implemented them as tables computed from a script testing what MSXSL does...) 14:05:42 2. Numering: http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt#convert suggests a function similar to Lisp's ~@R format directive, but with "Katakana numbering", "Katakana numbering in the "iroha" order", "Thai digits", ""traditional" Hebrew numbering", "Georgian numbering", ""classical" Greek numbering", and "Old Slavic numbering". 14:05:57 (None of these are actually required by the spec, although the XSLT 1.0 test suite checks some of them, and we fails these tests. I recall failing tests about the turkish uppercase i and that sort of thing.) 14:06:03 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:04 3. Not certain about the exact requirements for up/downcasing or case insensitive comparisons, because it turns out that those are only in XSLT 2.0, which we don't implement yet. 14:06:30 (that said, it's been a while since it was looking at this stuff, so there is a chance i am confused without realizing it) 14:06:35 -!- prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:06:44 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1B62C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:06:49 segv [n=mb@p4FC1B62C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:50 prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:25 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:07:25 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-119-68.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:10:41 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 14:11:22 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 14:13:43 What Franz does for 1. is that that STRING< etc. can still be used, but there is a separate function to convert the arguments into sort keys. (http://www.franz.com/support/documentation/current/doc/iacl.htm#collation-1) 14:13:45 -!- fantasticsid [n=fantasti@116.235.180.45] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:14:03 fantasticsid [n=fantasti@116.235.180.45] has joined #lisp 14:15:13 milanj [n=milan@79.101.180.180] has joined #lisp 14:15:25 nikodemus: "unless you use WITH-CONDITION-RESTARTS or (RESTART-CASE (ERROR ...) ...) your restarts will never appear in the second list" is not true 14:15:39 (compute-restarts condition) gives you those restarts associated with condition and those not associated with any condition 14:15:42 I think that the second list by default contains all the conditions, right? 14:15:51 oh 14:17:04 How is the association recorded? Is it specific to one condition object, or to a condition class? 14:17:09 an object 14:17:26 as I say, with-condition-restarts is possibly hardest thing I've had to wrap my brain around 14:17:31 I think it's even weirder than eval-when 14:17:36 Xof: oh. that's wierd 14:17:39 (or maybe just used a lot less frequently) 14:17:46 nikodemus: no, it makes sense 14:17:51 it does? 14:18:09 (defun foo (x) (restart-case (funcall #'bar) (abort (c) (return-from foo))) 14:18:32 if bar signals an error, you want that abort to be visible 14:18:33 yes... 14:18:39 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 14:19:07 hm, i see 14:19:14 if you replace (funcall #'bar) with (error 'foo :initarg (bar)), you probably don't want an error in (bar) to see that outer abort 14:19:31 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:19:39 an unassociated restart is kind of an unconditional escape route 14:19:47 whereas an associated restart is just for that one condition, only 14:20:16 right. it makes sense now -- differently :) 14:20:46 heh 14:20:50 -!- fantasticsid [n=fantasti@116.235.180.45] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 14:20:52 Wait... with-condition-restarts associates the restarts to a single object? 14:21:14 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 14:21:48 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:21:59 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:22:53 expands into code which associates the restarts with a single object 14:23:30 the trickiest thing with w-c-r seems to me to be getting hold of a list of restarts: either you call COMPUTE-RESTARTS or you carefully set up your restarts with RESTART-BIND and then pick them with FIND-RESTART. 14:23:31 is it possible to determine whether a given restart is associated with a condition? well, other than set-difference with compute-restarts nil 14:24:24 lunchtime, i think 14:24:31 hahaha 14:24:40 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:24:45 Well Xof and nikodemus thank you very much for clearing this up a bit... 14:25:07 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 14:27:16 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:27:40 vithorn [n=vithorn@095160156230.rudaslaska.vectranet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:34:08 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 14:35:31 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit ["HULK ANGRY! HULK DISCONNECT!"] 14:38:30 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:42:52 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:43:05 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:43:58 jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 14:44:46 -!- russell_ [n=russell_@bonneville.tdb.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:46:34 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-17-7.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:47:25 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 14:47:31 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Client Quit] 14:48:12 jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 14:49:26 while committing to SBCL CVS: "send-mail: Could not find password entry for UID 152864" 14:49:42 so commit mails may be broken just now 14:50:07 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:54:38 russell_ [n=russell_@bonneville.tdb.com] has joined #lisp 14:57:44 -!- larry [n=shrek@88.131.67.194] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:59:54 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 15:01:02 -!- prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:01:44 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:02:23 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 15:02:42 Is there any "native" support for , as decimal point in CL? 15:04:27 European formats interchange . and , (at least commercially, don't know about scientific notation) and if format could be persuaded to do its auto-grouping of numbers with a comma that would be ideal. Text input is also a problem, keyboards have a , on the numeric keypad. 15:05:22 nunb: for parsing? 15:05:24 there is (format t "~:/cl-l10n:format-number/" ...); don't know whether you'd count it as "native". 15:07:00 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:07:11 nunb: in poland there's only #\, and keyboards use US layout even on numeric... 15:08:26 -!- jao [n=jao@21.Red-83-43-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:10:06 F-Uh-God [n=sowhat@hbrn-5f7163a5.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 15:11:52 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 15:17:29 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:17:35 Greetings. 15:17:43 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 15:18:33 Congratulation! You have won. You are the 1000th visitor today. 15:19:15 ... 15:19:48 alexsuraci_ [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:57 there can't be 1000 lispers 15:20:10 F-Uh-God: Kewl, w-t-p? 15:20:53 404 - unknown command: w-t-p 15:21:19 haha 15:22:01 F-Uh-God: WTH kind of lisper are you? W(hats)-T(he)-P(rize)? 15:23:26 tmh: you forgot to press ... 15:23:37 "Symbol "FLEXI-STREAM-ENCODING-ERROR" not found in the FLEXI-STREAMS package." 15:23:44 that's trying to compile cl-irc 15:23:54 any idea if things have changed recently? 15:24:23 fetch cl-irc from svn 15:24:32 any git expert can tell me how I can reset a branch in a remote repository? (I want to 'unpull' the latest commit in a branch.) 15:24:42 luis: yes 15:24:47 hmm, s/remote/bare 15:24:48 -!- F-Uh-God [n=sowhat@hbrn-5f7163a5.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Illegal lambda list element (CONS 'STAR(CONS 'HOLD(CAR REGS)))"] 15:24:53 stassats: okay, and what is it called now? EXTERNAL-FORMAT-ENCODING-ERROR? 15:25:01 get your local repo set up the way you want the remote repo to look 15:25:08 oh wait 15:25:30 mathrick: no idea, cl-irc from svn fixes that 15:25:30 you pulled a commit and you want to "un-pull" it? 15:25:30 heh 15:25:34 stassats: clbuild grabs that, right? 15:25:53 Adlai: so, I want to git-reset a branch in a bare repository. Is that possible? 15:25:56 it should, yes 15:26:08 luis: what do you mean by a bare repository? 15:26:21 git clone --bare? 15:26:46 Yeah, something like that. 15:27:23 hm, I guess I'm not enough of a git expert then... 15:27:26 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:27:40 shouldn't it behave just like not bare repositories? 15:27:54 but it seems to me as though "git reset --hard ORIG_HEAD" should work 15:28:02 alexsuraci__ [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:10 (if you just did a pull/merge) 15:28:28 Adlai: but that will affect the master branch. 15:28:50 -!- alexsuraci_ [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:28:58 luis: "git checkout " before you do it 15:29:03 luis: git push -f +: 15:29:22 Adlai: right, but that doesn't work in a bare repository. 15:29:50 felipe: what sha1 is that? 15:29:54 hm, then I'm not sure then. I have to go anyways, good luck. Consider asking on #git maybe? They probably know best over there... 15:30:08 luis: the sha1 of the commit to which you want to reset the branch 15:30:16 ie, the sha1 that HEAD pointed at before the pull 15:30:25 you can figure that out with gitk or git log 15:30:31 good luck 15:30:38 -!- Adlai is now known as Adlai-AWAY 15:30:55 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit ["rebooting..."] 15:31:27 luis: yes, for parsing. If I could make CL recognize 2,2 as 2.2 -- I guess I need to look at parse-integer or similar. 15:31:47 koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.107.70] has joined #lisp 15:31:49 clhs parse-number 15:31:50 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for parse-number. 15:31:58 minion: parse-number 15:31:59 parse-number: parse-number is a Library of functions which accept an arbitrary string and attempt to parse it into one of the standard Common Lisp number types, if possible, or else it signals an error of type invalid-number. http://www.cliki.net/parse-number 15:32:05 fe[nl]ix: thanks, that worked. I'll add that to my list of handy git commands. :-) 15:32:09 dmiles [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:22 -!- koning_r1bot [n=aap@88.159.107.70] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:33:17 it should be easy to modify parse-number to use #\, 15:33:32 lichtblau: do you have a link for cl-l10n:format-number ? 15:33:43 minion: cl-l10n 15:33:44 cl-l10n: cl-l10n is a portable library for handling program localization. http://www.cliki.net/cl-l10n 15:34:03 stassats: parse-number looks ideal, thanks, checking out cl-l10n also.. 15:34:34 chii [i=chii@freenode/bot/chii] has joined #lisp 15:34:37 nunb: I think you want cl-l10n:parse-number 15:34:37 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:35:30 luis: there's no such thing anymore in the head 15:35:53 -!- vandemar [i=rings@2001:470:1f10:56b:0:0:0:4] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:36:17 piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:30 Oh, why not? 15:38:01 luis: i dropped it because it was a copy-paste of what is already available in the parse-number system 15:38:29 but parse-number has no locale support does it? 15:39:10 vandemar [i=holy@2001:470:1f10:56b:0:0:0:4] has joined #lisp 15:39:12 eventually it could be revived, but l10n was refactored to use the CLDR locale info as opposed to the unix locale files 15:39:58 does that mean CLDR has no info about number formats? 15:40:04 no 15:40:13 I don't follow then. 15:40:41 that info in the CLDR is very different. it's a format pattern for which a parser compiler should be written 15:41:37 hrm, well, my previous sentence may only apply to date/time parsing 15:42:29 ok, so someone has to reimplement cl-l10n:parse-number :) 15:42:52 and looking at the code, the dropped parse-number didn't get the decimal point from the locale, it was a mere #\. anyway 15:43:10 maybe nunb? 15:43:10 patches are welcom as always :) 15:43:47 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:44:39 piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:21 yep, looks like a re-adding the parse-number.lisp file to cl-l10n and modifying it to get the locale specific stuff from the CLDR seems to be a reasonable plan 15:45:50 CLDR has the group and decimal separator chars 15:46:33 ...and nativeZeroDigit, plusSign, exponential, perMille, infinity, nan, etc 15:46:55 -!- vithorn [n=vithorn@095160156230.rudaslaska.vectranet.pl] has quit ["EPIC5-0.3.5[1509] - amnesiac : stop it dad! You're crushing my smokes!"] 15:47:04 -!- pkok [n=patrick@f102140.upc-f.chello.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:47:13 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:18 *luis* tries to remember how to add new projects to clbuild 15:48:05 malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:49:10 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:50:14 humm, can I spawn another REPL thread in slime? 15:50:25 can anyone point me to something equivalent to #'parse-integer but for floats? Or is the best bet to use #'read with string stream 15:50:45 mathrick: I find that doing M-x slime again gives me the option of starting a whole new lisp, not sure if that's what you mean though.. 15:50:56 no, I want the same lisp 15:51:03 just another thread to interact with it 15:51:05 mathrick: ah. not sure then, sorry 15:51:15 since I just locked my first REPL with a cl-irc thread 15:51:16 minion: tell malcolm_reynolds about parse-number 15:51:17 malcolm_reynolds: look at parse-number: parse-number is a Library of functions which accept an arbitrary string and attempt to parse it into one of the standard Common Lisp number types, if possible, or else it signals an error of type invalid-number. http://www.cliki.net/parse-number 15:52:11 kpreid: lovely, looks like exactly what I need. Thanks. 15:53:07 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-176.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:53:17 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 15:53:50 attila_lendvai: do you have moderator privs on local-time mailing list? 15:54:02 These childish quibbelings on comp.lang.lisp make me look like a angel 15:54:25 malcolm_reynolds: M-x slime-connect and when prompted don't close old connection. slime-selector will also let you choose the default slime connection to use. 15:54:29 By the way sorry for that pointless discussion last week 15:54:36 attila_lendvai: oh wait, it got dequeued already 15:54:49 jthing: You are pretty strange, you know that? 15:55:01 Oh, yes 15:55:47 is mcclim-devel the right place to ask for guidance and comments on a pane implementation? 15:56:05 because there are things where i'm not at all sure what is good style and what is not 15:56:19 nikodemus: That is probably the best place, yes. 15:56:38 ok, 15:56:56 nikodemus: However, I have often fallen into the trap of wanting to design a new pane, and that often turned out not to be the good thing to do. 15:57:00 "CLIM users guide" failing 15:57:37 comments to that effect will be much appreciated as well :) 15:57:48 i'll write my stuff up 15:57:57 nikodemus: I look forward to it. 15:58:09 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:58:57 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-17-7.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 15:59:40 morning 15:59:45 hey slyrus_ 16:00:15 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-97-94.w86-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:00:27 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 16:02:19 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:11:24 jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 16:12:01 Why won't (let (pid (fork)) (if (= pid 0) (child) (parent))) run (child) ? 16:12:29 jthing: missing pair of () in LET 16:12:34 pkok [n=patrick@f102140.upc-f.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 16:12:35 (let ((pid (fork))) (if (= pid 0) (child) (parent))) run (child) ? 16:12:41 nice try 16:13:17 The compier would never let me get away with that 16:13:28 why not? 16:13:43 jthing: We have many people coming here who don't read error messages. 16:14:05 (let (pid (fork)) (list pid fork)) => (NIL NIL) 16:14:53 jthing: care to paste the actual code you're trying? 16:15:00 luis: the compiler might signal the use of = on NIL. 16:15:02 ok, well I didn't make THAT mistake 16:15:14 beach: good point. 16:15:34 beach: hang on 16:15:36 luis: that should error out with (fork) being a malformed binding form 16:15:58 mathrick: it's not malformed 16:16:21 wow, we're getting really informed discussion here 16:16:51 Xof: As opposed to the usual standard? 16:17:56 luis: oh right, cdr of that form is still nil 16:18:33 no, that's not the reason 16:18:40 (let ((foo .1)) foo) is malformed 16:18:59 jsnell: watch your spaces 16:19:20 haha 16:19:21 beach: http://paste.lisp.org/+1T3X 16:21:44 cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has joined #lisp 16:21:45 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:22:26 (let ((pid (sb-posix:fork))) (if (zerop pid) (progn (format t "~&Child!~%") (sb-ext:quit)) (format t "~&Parent: ~D~%" pid))) 16:22:37 But, frork should return 0 not nil? 16:22:43 fork 16:23:01 neufeld [n=user@74.13.131.120] has joined #lisp 16:23:05 my form, which seems to be what you're driving at, prints both "Child!" and "Parent: 1472" for me 16:23:11 jthing: does that j in your name refer to java? :) 16:23:13 maybe your problem is not in fact with form? 16:23:19 "fork", even 16:23:26 -!- neufeld [n=user@74.13.131.120] has quit [Client Quit] 16:23:33 attila_lendvai: no John 16:24:47 Xof: It returns Parent: 13108, nil 16:25:19 attila_lendvai: I'm curious as to how you were using local-time before, we tried and it was wrong pretty much always :) 16:25:35 ...and now dive into the details why it doesn't print the same for the both of you... :D 16:26:29 mathrick: we mostly use it to represent timestamps traveling from/to the db and only in the budapest gmt+2 timezone, where it did what we wanted 16:26:59 attila_lendvai: oh, you don't have DST in there? 16:27:06 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:27:11 Xof: that is the point. The child bit never runs 16:27:37 ... for you 16:27:41 we only tried in copenhagen gmt+2, and it broke all the time, some of the ways it broke being unfixable due to several macros not taking timezones / offsets where they should 16:27:43 mathrick: sorry, it's CEST now, and CET otherwise 16:27:54 It works in C, quite frankly I am totally confused 16:27:56 it does for me 16:28:27 attila_lendvai: interesting, the first thing we noticed was ENCODE-TIMESTAMP being off by one hour 16:28:40 Xof: ah, so it's my configuration 16:28:50 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-jlxopjpmzlktpwvl] has joined #lisp 16:29:12 mathrick: to be honest i never fully understood all the details about the timezones, like how it can change based on dates (governmental changes) and how that influence this-and-that 16:29:16 Xof: I have compiled for multithreading 16:29:21 jthing: you could try tracing sb-posix:fork 16:29:28 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-77-2.lns10.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:32 Xof: I did 16:30:10 attila_lendvai: it's not *that* hard, as long as you don't 1) ignore them sometimes, but not other times 2) take fixed offsets where you need timezones and vice-versa. It did both before :) 16:30:16 mathrick: ...and for that reason i tried not to touch anything around timezone calculation stuff, it was done by dlowe 16:30:36 jthing: can you paste (to lisppaste) a short terminal transcript where you show what happens? 16:31:04 when did jthing get unbanned anyway? 16:31:18 It all seems to wrong here: 6: (SWANK::CALL-WITH-BUFFER-SYNTAX NIL #) 16:32:18 mathrick: He is improving. I have seen much worse. 16:32:32 what is that lib called chronocity or something that processes human date specifications? 16:32:34 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:32:56 attila_lendvai: yes, michaelw was just pointing out today how it breaks if you ask for "five months ago" :) 16:33:00 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:33:04 attila_lendvai: chronicity 16:33:13 http://www.cliki.net/chronicity 16:33:43 Xof: 2: (SWANK::EVAL-REGION "(let ((pid (sb-posix:fork))) (if (zerop pid) (progn (format t \"~&Child!~%\") (sb-ext:quit)) (format t \"~&Parent: ~D~ 16:33:58 that's abouth the last i get 16:34:03 beach: even if you look at the totally unrelated swank frame he keeps on pasting? :) 16:34:15 how is swank going to cope with simultaneous connections? 16:34:41 Ahh, that's the problem? 16:34:44 my guess 16:34:54 Xach, kpreid: thanks! cliki.net didn't find it when searching for "chron"... oh, well 16:35:02 Sounds like a good one. 16:35:08 Jasko3 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:35 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:35:42 i only remember it from http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/957y6/dear_reddit_lispers_what_is_your_favorite_lisp/ recently 16:36:00 attila_lendvai: oh, I can see the problems with looking for "chronocity". 9 chances out of 10 you'll get a sci-fi game 16:36:03 Xach: How DOES swank handle multiple connections? 16:36:23 cool, I hosed cliki 16:36:29 (topic search missing some parameters) 16:37:10 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 16:37:42 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.64.194] has joined #lisp 16:37:44 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-46-58.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:37:54 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:38:05 amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 16:38:15 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 16:40:14 coderdad_ [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has joined #lisp 16:41:09 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:41:35 well I guess I will just lok through the doc's, just like last week 16:42:12 (and people ask me why I am a satanist...) 16:42:41 Looking through the docs, what a novel concept. 16:43:07 I plowed tthough them for three days 16:43:15 no, chance 16:44:19 jthing: You might be better of not referring to your religious convictions here. 16:44:45 posix API, Lisp API, alien etc. 16:44:48 no luck 16:45:23 Adamant [n=Adamant@131.107.204.126] has joined #lisp 16:45:30 I'm still at a loss, the code SHOULD work.. 16:45:38 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:48:27 The source looked fine. 16:48:35 minion: advice on hardware? 16:48:35 You can't expect automated advice for everything. 16:50:13 Ok, I am giving up forking in SBCL. 16:50:24 With a pipe. 16:50:41 And I am not the first.. 16:51:39 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:51:51 -!- angerman [n=angerman@e093.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 16:52:15 manuel_ [n=manuel@p5B2DC78B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:34 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:52:48 Inostdahl and Fade expressed the same problems. 16:52:52 jthing: I think it would be preferable that you figure out why it works for Xof but not for you. 16:53:18 Indeed It would. 16:53:20 there's possibility that it works, but you think that it doesn't work 16:53:35 I thought of that. 16:53:35 haven't we already established that? swank is going to react very badly to two attempts to communicate with it 16:53:57 Is anyone really bored? I'd like some style advice on a piece of Lisp code, approx 150 LOC. 16:53:58 have you run my form in a terminal? 16:54:17 tic: As usual, I am bored and overworked at the same time. 16:54:44 Xof: but when I compile-file, the It shoulnt connect to the REPL 16:55:07 beach, great feeling, isn't it? let me know if you get bored enough. ;) 16:55:09 intermediary 16:55:24 tic: You are just going to have to guess. 16:55:41 tic: And no, it is not a good feeling at all. :( 16:55:52 beach, judging from your activity on IRC, the "overworked" side seems to be losing. 16:55:57 jthing: have you run my form in a terminal? 16:55:58 beach, *nod* 16:56:16 I know I am missing something, I just don't know what.. 16:56:20 tic: I answer an email or two between major IRC interactions. 16:56:33 Xof: will try 16:56:37 tic: boring stuff. 16:56:55 beach, boring is bad if it's also time consuming without much reward. 16:57:19 jthing: what you're missing is that if you try to run my form within slime, you'll try to print to swank streams from two different sbcls, one of which has a different pid 16:57:40 probably swank will just drop those attempts to print on the floor 16:58:59 tic: Very typical of academic life these days, I'm afraid. 16:59:36 tic: are you going to paste that damn thing or what? :) Dinner is in 10 minutes or so. 16:59:51 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:00:07 To quote: (let ((pid (sb-posix:fork))) (if (zerop pid) (progn (format t "~&Child!~%") (sb-ext:quit)) (format t "~&Parent: ~D~%" pid))) 17:00:09 beach, haha, yeah, sec! 17:00:19 asksol [n=ask@91.208.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:00:45 -!- p_l [i=plasek@89.248.166.201] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:00:52 debugger invoked on a UNBOUND-VARIABLE in thread #: 17:00:52 The variable ~&CHILD!~% is unbound. 17:01:22 some variable name there! 17:01:24 tic pasted "carbup.lisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84385 17:02:05 beach, I'd like to know which parts sting in your eyes when first looking at it. 17:02:09 manuel____ [n=manuel@p5B2DC78B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:34 tic: first thing: having the same name of slots and accessors. 17:03:22 beach, what'd be the better way? foo-of is awkward. or suggest not using accessors at all? 17:03:23 tic: in "apply #'make-instance 'food" instead of append (apply #'make-instance 'food :name name :foo bar (when foo-p (list 'a 'b 'c))) 17:04:01 tic: I do like you. 17:04:05 stassats, I had that first, but it didn't work. :| 17:04:17 tic: you had it wrong then 17:04:19 tic: in eat-food you could use push instead of setf 17:04:22 There are two quotes.. beach 17:04:23 tic: if you think food-of is awakward, you might like my own convention, which is to name the slot with an initial `%', which is tradition for "danger", so that if you see package::%slot, you should be very alarmed. 17:04:25 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:56 jthing, you're using the --eval option of sbcl? 17:05:05 beach: why? In fact when you use always the accessor, the slot name becomes useless. 17:05:22 beach: we could write a defclass* macro that'd use gensyms for them. 17:05:24 beach, so it's not the naming of the accessor, then? 17:05:39 jthing, you need to quote the #\"'s so that the shell doesn't eat them. 17:05:40 pjb: Why what? 17:05:43 beach: that is a nice convention. I might start using that 17:06:01 Why should the slot names be prefixed by %, why should then be different from the accessor name? 17:06:08 -!- masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:06:16 tic: No, the accessor is fine. The problem is to avoid accidental direct access to the slot. 17:06:32 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:06:41 pjb: See what I just told tic. It might not be a problem for you. 17:06:42 -!- asksol [n=ask@91.208.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 17:06:59 beach, good idea! 17:07:06 beach: Yes, I agree. But it's not a dire problem: it's easier to write (foo x) rather than (slot-value x 'foo). 17:07:11 asksol [n=ask@91.208.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:07:34 pjb: I don't think I meant to forbid that use. 17:07:58 pjb: On the contrary, I meant to make it harder to use slot-value. 17:08:00 ryepup, I wasn't sure push would modify it in-place (only that it's destructive), and doing setf and then push would just be silly. 17:08:33 beach: yes, I understand. I say that it's already hard enough. Have you had the case that somebody used slot-value on a slot for which you declared an accessor? 17:08:42 tic: if unsure, clhs 17:08:59 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-155.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:09:00 tic: apply might not require the first arguments to be in a list. 17:09:34 pjb: No, but I don't trust myself not to do that, and I would like the compiler to tell me when I attempt it. 17:09:55 Fair. 17:10:04 stassats, I checked CLHS, but .. Maybe I was just tired. 17:10:08 tic: Oh, and use three `;' on the top level. 17:10:20 -!- asksol [n=ask@91.208.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 17:10:30 tic: (let ((foo (list 1))) (push 2 foo) foo) => (2 1) 17:10:48 asksol [n=ask@91.208.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:11:03 beach, stassats: modified make-instance, I think I still passed a list to APPLY when I didn't get it work w/ an embedded WHEN. Thanks for pointing that out. 17:11:09 beach, ah, yes. 17:11:38 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 17:11:55 How can I check if my sbcl is working with multi-thread support? 17:11:56 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:12:08 (member :sb-thread *features*) 17:12:12 tic: inconsistent indentation, such as the body of recalculate, no doubt due to non use of Emacs :) 17:12:14 stassats: thanks! 17:12:31 There's also some CLOS issues, but that requires you to actually read the code. :-) I don't really like having two classes FOOD and EATEN-FOOD. But I don't know how to abuse CLOS to get that. 17:13:11 beach, it does that to me from time to time! 17:13:26 eaten-food = portion 17:13:31 tic: Oh, and I wouldn't use format in a function like recalculate. 17:13:44 tic: it's a question of terminology. 17:14:07 beach, agreed, recalculate is a bad name. It's just me throwing random things into a function so I could evaluate all steps at once. :-) 17:14:12 -!- asksol [n=ask@91.208.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 17:14:20 tic: No doubt you did that for debugging purposes, which you had to do because you are not using SLIME, which you are not using because you are not using Emacs :) 17:14:29 beach, *lalalalalaa* 17:15:00 beach, sending s-exps to the Lisp isn't hard or anything, but you still have to do that a couple of times. Even had I been using SLIME! 17:15:09 asksol [n=ask@91.208.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:15:30 tic: Anyway, we'll talk this over soon over a beer. 17:15:37 beach, yay! 17:16:06 pjb, how about using class-instance? The food is the same, just the amount changing. It feels like I'm mucking about with an SQL database when I juggle parent objects around. 17:16:13 I am feeling like hunchentoot is very slow. Any idea why is that so? (I have tried it both of htoot stand alone and one behind apache with mod_proxy.) benchmark: http://paste.lisp.org/display/84386 17:16:24 Thanks for the help, everyone. 17:16:27 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@p5B2DC78B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:16:44 tic: no, really. You must be careful, because natural languages often conflate different ideas under the same word. 17:17:27 tomoyuki28jp: have you tested your function without hunchentoot? 17:17:42 pjb, portion was indeed the noun I was looking for, so you're right. 17:17:49 have you tried binding *print-pretty* to nil? 17:17:59 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:18:16 stassats: yes > tested your function without hunchentoot? 17:18:19 pjb, it's just that I dislike having two separate classes. (probably just silly) 17:18:20 Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 17:18:23 stassats: let me try *print-pretty* 17:18:23 -!- asksol [n=ask@91.208.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 17:18:31 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:19:02 asksol [n=ask@91.208.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:19:52 tic: It is a good thing that you submit your code. I wish I could convince my Vietnamese students to do the same. 17:20:01 tomoyuki28jp: profile it? 17:20:22 beach, well, they do submit their code at submission time, don't they? 17:20:37 (but I guess it'd be a good thing to be able to give advice /before/ it's too late) 17:20:38 nicktastic: how can I take a profile? 17:20:46 tic: you're not entirely wrong, you could modelize it with metaclasses, classes and instances, but not at the level of MOP/CLOS machinery. So what you have is correct, you can consider the CLOS class FOOD as your meta-class, CLOS instances of FOOD as your classes (of food), and CLOS instances of eaten-food (portion) as instances of your classes of food ("'instances' of CLOS instances"). But it's simplier to just keep the concepts 17:20:46 separated and just have a normal relation between normal instances. 17:21:20 tic: since you don't really need the complexities of meta-classes/classes/instances here. 17:21:46 tic: Sorry, I am talking about a different thing. I am actually paying some of my studetns in Vietnam to work on Lisp for me (as opposed to flipping burgers, or the equivalent), but they are not coming here as often nor as openly as I had hoped. 17:22:12 beach, :/ 17:22:16 -!- asksol [n=ask@91.208.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 17:22:33 tic: Cultural difference I'm afraid. 17:22:39 beach: so there's also delocalization of students? 17:22:43 asksol [n=ask@91.208.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:23:00 pjb: We have a part of our masters program in HCM, yes. 17:23:09 pjb, what I "need" and what's fun, in this case, are two completely different animals. ;-) Your description was exactly what was lurking in the back of my head, after-all, I didn't read Keene and AMOP for nothing! 17:23:27 Anyway, dinner time. I'll Be Back Later. 17:23:32 Bon appetit! 17:23:34 bon appetit! 17:23:42 :) 17:23:47 Thanks! 17:23:56 stassats: ohhh, when I add "(setf *print-pretty* nil)", it became much faster!! thanks a lot for your help. I really appreciate it. 17:24:10 -!- asksol [n=ask@91.208.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:24:23 tomoyuki28jp: how many requests per minute? 17:24:35 or second 17:25:15 -!- alexsuraci__ [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info"] 17:25:31 stassats: 151.017 seconds -> 7.879 seconds 17:25:43 pjb, what do you mean by "not at the level of MOP/CLOS machinery"? 17:26:00 stassats: actually it's the one behind apache + mod_proxy. 17:26:18 brb 17:26:20 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:26:26 tic: if you've read AMOP, you could fancy implementing FOOD as a real MOP metaclass. 17:26:48 Then instead of make-instance 'food, you'd write (defclass ... (:metaclass food)) 17:27:16 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:27:19 But in the case of this program, it would be overkill. 17:27:31 pjb, of course it would be overkill! that's beside the point! 17:27:54 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 17:28:00 You can still think of food as a meta-class, but implementing it as a normal CLOS class, and think of food instances as classes, when they're implemented as normal CLOS instances. 17:28:26 pjb, now I know where to start. I think the simplicity of the app is actually a good thing, because that makes it easy to understand. 17:28:30 pjb, *nod* 17:28:30 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:29:27 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:28 asksol [n=ask@91.208.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:29:29 p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-pqpjegxewskuvgar] has joined #lisp 17:29:30 tic: for example, if you wrote a program that would need to parse C++, you would have CLOS classes representing the notion of C++ class, and CLOS instances representing C++ classes. Or you could develop a CLOS C++-class meta-class, but it wouldn't be useful if you're not developing a CL/C++ FFI 17:31:17 rhickey [n=rhickey@ool-457e4394.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:21 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:31:55 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1B62C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 17:31:57 CCL's Obj-C FFI is a great example of the latter, IMO. 17:31:59 pjb, I'm not quite sure what an instance of a class with a "C++" meta-class would mean. .-) 17:32:24 -!- rhickey [n=rhickey@ool-457e4394.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 17:33:00 stassats: Do you know any other way to make hunchentoot faster? (it's already fast enough though.) 17:33:21 tomoyuki28jp: ask fusss for his experiments? :D 17:34:25 tomoyuki28jp: are you sure that slowness is provided by hunchentoot and not your app? 17:34:44 p_l: fusss is a developer of hunchentoot? 17:34:55 tomoyuki28jp: are you talking about this? http://paste.lisp.org/display/84386 17:35:01 that's ridiculously slow 17:35:05 what is the app doing? 17:35:18 rsynnott: yes 17:35:44 rsynnott: (dotimes (x 100000) (print x s)) 17:35:52 rsynnott: as you can see in the paste code. 17:36:56 tomoyuki28jp: fusss apparently started out with hunchentoot and hacked away till a cheap VPS could serve all of his target userbase 17:37:30 p_l: oh really. Thanks for the info. 17:37:38 he's not online right now though. 17:37:38 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:37:56 francogrex [n=franco@225.153-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 17:39:35 tic: you could know very well how a C++ compiler generates its classes, vtables, etc. and write a clos metaclass that would allow you to declare in CL C++ classes, stored exactly like C++ classes, so you could pass them directly to C++ method, you could subclass or superclass (with dynamically compiled and loaded C++ code) C++ classes. 17:39:46 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-17-7.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:40:26 tomoyuki28jp: what are you trying to test, here? 17:40:34 If you liked the AMOP, you will love this: http://www.csg.is.titech.ac.jp/~chiba/openc++.html 17:40:38 tic: The key is to understand that classes are descriptions. 17:40:42 the capacity of hunchentoot itself to handle large data transfer? 17:40:43 rsynnott: I am just taking benchmarks 17:40:56 yes 17:40:57 Zhivago, right, because I think of the class as... well, something else. 17:40:59 or the assembly of large strings in an inefficient manner? 17:41:10 tomoyuki28jp: ah, in that case, make your string once, at startup 17:41:12 pjb, using the FFI, right? 17:41:17 tic: As prescriptions, I guess. :) 17:41:26 tic: openc++ is a MOP for C++. 17:41:35 pjb, niftyness. 17:41:39 tomoyuki28jp: http://myblog.rsynnott.com/2008/05/bechmarking-new-hunchentoot-common-lisp.html might be of interest 17:41:51 tic: designing a C++ CLOS metaclass would be useful to implement a direct C++ FFI. 17:42:04 rsynnott: thanks! 17:42:13 it's out of date (the 'new' hunchentoot covered is an early development version of the current one) 17:42:28 tic: Think of how you might make a class that describes how a kind of 32 bit int object works. 17:42:45 pjb, *nod* 17:42:47 Zhivago, yeah? 17:42:58 but my findings were basically that the (at the time current) 0.15.7 was quite fast at serving big docs 17:45:17 that 32 bit integer really messes things up for integers 17:45:26 not so much for 64 bit 17:45:30 -!- francogrex [n=franco@225.153-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:45:39 ZabaQ [n=johnc@host86-176-91-91.range86-176.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:45:57 2-3 type bits in a fixnum 17:47:04 tic: What kind of things do you need to know about 32 bit ints in order to use them? 17:47:16 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:47:20 How is the pretty CL way to add two matrices? 17:47:26 I tried + ;) 17:47:44 Zhivago, what you can stuff into them! 17:47:59 (map 17:48:22 tic: Well, you might want to know how much storage they need, and at what alignment. 17:48:34 ZabaQ: thanks. Works great for me :) 17:49:01 I find mysef constantly (declare (optimize (speed 0) (debug 0) (safety 1)) (x, y (byte-size 32))) 17:49:11 Zhivago, yup. but, what are we talking about here, really? :-) I'm kinda lost. 17:49:59 hmmm... OpenC++ might help a lot with C++ FFI 17:50:11 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:50:38 tic: Well, if a class is a description of a kind of object, then you shouldn't have a problem with describing 32 bit ints with them, for example. 17:50:38 p_l: possibly, I'd have to watch it more closely. 17:51:54 Zhivago, indeed not. 17:52:09 (defclass uint32 (rational) ((bits :type (vector bit 32)))) 17:52:16 tic: So, I thought thinking about a trivial case might help you break into that mindset. 17:52:23 schmx: I didn't mean to answer your question. That was a cut n paste accident! 17:52:36 Well, numbers are tricky. 17:53:03 One could say that they don't have state. To make a class you need to have state and procedure to encapsulate... 17:54:14 pjb: That's part of the wrong mindset. 17:54:57 Zhivago, it's still not the same, I think. 17:55:06 Zhivago, but I understand what you mean, though. 17:55:21  17:55:21 pjb: You can have classes which describe immutable objects. 17:55:29 Just consider (class-of 10) :) 17:55:33 ZabaQ: A good accident I say :) 17:55:36 sorry :) 17:56:31 Zhivago: There's still something that feels "wrong". :-) 17:56:53 Probably the mindset you're using. ) 17:57:37 I agree in terms of _representation_, but in terms of _essence_, it's strange. 17:57:53 Yeah, and that essence is your preconceptions. 17:57:59 Usually, when you have subclasses, you need more data to describe instances of a subclass. 17:58:48 But in the case of numbers it's the reverse: integer which is a subclass of rational needs only one sequence of bits, while rational needs two (numerator, denominator). And real needs even more data, and complex again the double. 17:59:07 Just goes to show that your thinking is wrong. 17:59:13 Probably. 17:59:40 If a subclass is more specialized (more constrained), then it's perfectly reasonable for it to require less description -- it has less degrees of freedom. 17:59:40 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:00:57 What do you make of all the existing class hierarchies? Are they reversed? 18:01:10 And generally speaking, subclasses should be more specialized -- if they're not, you're abusing inheritance. 18:01:21 Why would they be? 18:01:32 Because subclasses add fields, they don't remove them. 18:02:07 what's wrong there is that you're adding the fields too soon 18:02:29 RATIONAL does not have two fields, RATIO does. 18:02:57 nice point 18:02:59 say 'abstract superclass' or 'abstract type' if you like 18:03:02 The amount of bits needed to represent an instance is probably an orthogonal question to the specialization/generalization relationship. 18:03:18 pjb: Absolutely. 18:03:20 beware confusing subtyping with implementation inheritance 18:03:52 OO systems often provide both with the same facility, but if you mix them up you often find you've painted yourself into a corner later 18:03:56 -!- Adlai-AWAY is now known as Adlai 18:04:59 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 18:08:10 -!- ZabaQ [n=johnc@host86-176-91-91.range86-176.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:09:34 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:11:28 -!- xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:11:43 beach: What do you do in Vietnam? I lived there for a year. Did a lot of computer stuff there. Where in Vietnam are you? 18:11:46 prxq [n=mommer@g228000008.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:12:06 beach: If you are in Sai Gon you need to hook up with my friend Kevin Miller. He's a good guy and into Linux. 18:12:39 beach: I found that they really lack the whole computer culture and hacker ethic there. Linux is a hard enough sell. Lisp will be even harder. They just want to learn Windows and Java and get a job with an outsource company. 18:14:18 tessier__: that's strange how some countries are like that, more monoculture than others. 18:14:44 that's mainly because they have other problems, I'd say. 18:15:52 Perhaps, but even in Europe you can see this kind of difference from one country to the other. 18:16:52 Practical people. 18:16:57 given the overwhelming dominance of M$W, i wonder if that's just noise. 18:17:46 One issue is probably that they don't get paid very much or given much autonomy. 18:17:57 prxq: Yes, Vietnam definitely does have other problems. I can tell you from firsthand experience that the corruption is very widespread. 18:18:08 Look at their team structures -- if they're heavily pyramidal, then that's what you'll see. 18:18:20 well that's a cultural thing 18:18:23 Unfortunately pretty much every discussion of Vietnam quickly devolves into a political discussion. 18:18:46 jewel: And it isn't serving them well. But it is politically incorrect to judge others' culture. 18:19:24 Fortunately my wife, a Vietnamese I met while I was over there who emmigrated to the US two years ago, has learned on her own during her time in the US that certain things need to change over there. 18:19:37 She is dying to do business in Vietnam some day but knows she cannot until things change. 18:20:32 tessier__: so we shouldn't judge Nazi's culture. 18:20:32 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:20:48 tessier__: PC is wrong and bad. 18:20:54 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:21:06 pjb: He wasn't supporting political correctness 18:21:10 *prxq* .oO(this can't end well) 18:21:35 Well, the vietnamese made a bad decision when they decided to invite the US to have a war there. 18:21:45 :-) 18:21:51 It worked for other countries! 18:22:27 masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has joined #lisp 18:23:04 The only one that I can think of is south korea, and I'm not so sure they they're actually ahead on balance. 18:23:25 Zhivago: Indeed. Although if you ask them now they didn't invite. They currently say we invaded and wanted to make them the 51st state. 18:23:45 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181148156.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:23:47 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.180.180] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:23:47 Zhivago: I had to listen to my wife tell me such things when I first met her. :) I avoided disagreeing with her or talking about politics at all for the first year we dated. That was hard. :) 18:23:56 xristos [n=x@204.8.46.227] has joined #lisp 18:24:23 tessier: You'd better start reading some history. 18:24:26 Zhivago: But when things got serious and it became apparent that she would come to the US I had to give her some links to read. 18:24:29 oh geez 18:25:12 We've just barely begun talking and you already accuse me of not knowing the history? 18:25:50 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdsleb180.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:25:57 I have been studying it since 2005 when I spent a year living there, have traveled to every province in the country, learned some of the language, and married a Vietnamese. I've heard it all from both sides. 18:26:14 tessier: So, why did the US go in? 18:26:20 how about you two sorting this out in privmsg? 18:27:20 Zhivago: I think you misunderstood what I said. 18:27:24 Zhivago: I agree with you. 18:27:35 prxq: So, how 'bout that Lisp eh? 18:27:49 prxq: Sure is a swell language. 18:27:50 milanj [n=milan@79.101.180.180] has joined #lisp 18:27:59 milanj: Hi! Let's talk about Lisp! 18:29:04 angerman [n=angerman@host230.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:30:37 lisp eh? 18:31:05 I've been hacking forth lately, and now I have a hard time finding lisp nice to work with. How do I get the good feel back? 18:31:37 Maybe write a linear combinator library for it. 18:31:43 :-) 18:31:58 You need a linear combinator library, eh? :P 18:32:09 No, but it might make you feel forthy. 18:32:22 (: 18:32:39 *schmx* is actually writing cl-openal examples. I guess it's about the same. 18:32:40 You might also be interested in baker's papers on 'linear lisp'. 18:32:45 *schmx* googles. 18:32:54 -!- manuel____ is now known as m4nu3|_ 18:33:17 look ma, no garbage? 18:33:40 Lately I have problems that could be elegantly solved by linear types. :) 18:34:15 so many interesting papers on the internet. yikes. 18:34:25 thanks Zhivago ! You have saved my evening! 18:36:29 Have fun. 18:37:13 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 18:39:48 ixmatus [n=ixm@wsip-24-234-73-31.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:03 could someone help me understand exactly what the benefit of using a Closure is? 18:41:07 It lets part of your function be called by other functions. 18:41:59 Think about how to implement a while loop as a function, perhaps. 18:42:01 but only from within the defined form of the function? Or externally too? 18:42:09 Externally, too. 18:42:41 That also gives you a form of 'delayed evaluation'. 18:42:43 ixmatus: there is an equivalence between closure and object. You can consider a closure like an anonymous class/object. 18:43:15 pjb: I think that's a bad way to introduce them. It ignores everything that makes them lexical closures. 18:43:29 I understand how to use them, but I am having trouble coming up with a use case... 18:43:43 ixmatus: Have you ever used a library with callbacks? 18:43:44 ixmatus: (let ((a 0)) (foo (lambda () (incf a)))) 18:44:05 (mapcar (let ((z 0)) (lambda (x) (list (incf z) x))) '(a b c d)) --> ((1 A) (2 B) (3 C) (4 D)) 18:44:06 ixmatus: Now someone else can call that closure to increment a. 18:44:09 ixmatus: cl-ppcre uses them in an interesting way 18:44:41 it implements regex scanners by linking together a series of closures that implement the pattern 18:45:30 I have used plenty of libs that use callbacks, but that doesnt seem like an accurate way to describe closures.... 18:45:38 turbo24prg [n=turbo24p@mail.turbolent.com] has joined #lisp 18:46:36 ixmatus: then you should be able to think of plenty of use cases where first-class (nested) functions make callbacks simpler to use. 18:46:41 Zhivago: so closures give control over state right? 18:46:48 ixmatus: They're _lexical_ closures -- why do you think the lexical is there? 18:47:35 ixmatus: Closures give you control over when code runs, at a finer grain than functions. 18:47:50 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 18:48:16 pkhuong: that helps havent thought of first-class functions as nested ones... ( that helps) 18:48:35 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:48:57 (let ((count 0)) (function (lambda () (setf count (1+ count))))) 18:51:09 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@89.180.25.113] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 18:52:46 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:18 do you need to make it a function? 18:53:57 nanobit [i=dniwer@gw.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:39 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:56:53 I can do that 18:56:58 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:45 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:05:19 -!- m4nu3|_ [n=manuel@p5B2DC78B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:05:37 pkhuong pasted "A draft of FP correctness settings" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84396 19:08:34 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:11:03 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 19:11:27 tmh, nikodemus: ideas/suggestions for the above? 19:12:22 pkhuong: looks reasonable -- that is, i have no immediate issues with the outline 19:12:58 one thing that bears keeping in mind is the issue SAFE-SINGLE-COERCION-P works around 19:13:13 but that is independent of the policy 19:13:21 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 19:14:50 That's an issue because we miscompile the op, though. 19:17:17 pkhuong: I like that proposal. 19:17:21 point 19:19:37 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:20:00 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:20:44 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:21:06 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 19:22:17 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:35 I wonder how much slower the cross-compiler would be with a soft-float implementation (: 19:22:37 is there a nicer way to do (+ int single) correctly than FILD, FST, FLD in x87? 19:23:08 (follow by loading the float and addition, of course) 19:23:29 vmCodes [n=vmCodes@c-76-121-83-217.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:48 -!- vmCodes [n=vmCodes@c-76-121-83-217.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 19:24:07 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590f8b52.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:24:21 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590f8b52.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 19:24:48 Don't think so. GCC has an option just to allow the compiler to play fast and loose with conversions, iirc. 19:25:02 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 19:25:49 -!- faure [n=moe@CPE001217e40caa-CM0018c0c09832.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:26:02 faure [n=moe@CPE001217e40caa-CM0018c0c09832.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:26:05 it only a real issue due to the interaction with type derivation, imo 19:27:12 of course, sse on x86 would be a nice way to solve this -- and leave the safe-coerce kludges to non-sse builds 19:27:44 doesn't gcc by default do 80/64 bit coercions whenever it feels like? 19:29:55 -!- moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:31:38 foom: depends on -march, I guess 19:31:45 on x86, I mean 19:31:57 foom: still depends on SSE 19:32:26 well, whether it's using SSE or not changes "when it feels like" 19:32:38 but not whether it does so whenever it feels like or not. :) 19:33:06 according to http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/x87note yes 19:33:51 see option: -ffloat-store 19:35:05 or look for the epic thread involving brad lucier. 19:35:28 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:36:38 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:39:20 *p_l* had a look at cl-gtk2. Looks nice :3 19:40:41 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:10 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:44:33 pkhuong: Re: Reorganize -ffast-math code. ? 19:45:42 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:46:13 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-11-85.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:59 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 19:48:05 -!- xristos [n=x@204.8.46.227] has quit ["Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.2.0"] 19:49:59 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 19:51:36 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:54:06 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 19:54:11 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 19:55:27 truthair [n=truthair@inconsistent.nl] has joined #lisp 19:55:52 spacebat1 [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-26-218.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:53 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:56:35 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:56:40 -!- nanobit [i=dniwer@gw.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:57:30 hi! i'm on unix and try to (with-open-file (in "~/tmp.txt") ...), but it says that there is no /home/npoektop/~/tmp.txt. How to fix that? 19:57:55 Any thoughts on Arc? What I've read so far sounds interesting and more up my alley then Common Lisp, but on the other hand I'm not sure how suitable it isfor people who are new to the world of lisp-y things. 19:58:19 npoektop, use an absolute path 19:58:23 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-77-2.lns10.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 19:58:35 mjf [n=mjf@r2r126.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 19:58:37 npoektop: ~ is a figment of the shell's imagination 19:59:21 truthair: I've looked at it a bit. It's very interesting -- definitely take a look, it can't hurt. 20:00:02 vsync_ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 20:00:06 -!- vsync [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:00:15 leadnose [i=leadnose@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 20:00:24 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 20:00:26 foom: it's a shell macro character (-: 20:00:40 i've read this in PCL. with ~ 20:01:23 Well, books have bugs. "tmp.txt" would work fine of course... 20:01:30 rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:05 npoektop: In every language I know (ok, except bash and some other shell languages...) you need to call special functions to expand ~ to a user directory... 20:02:56 so what should i do? 20:03:00 from PCL: CL-USER> (save-db "~/my-cds.db") 20:04:37 (save-db (merge-pathnames (user-homedir-pathname) "my-cds.db")) 20:04:41 pkhuong: I've been away from my screen, I'll look over the paste related to FP correctness and the logs and try to catch up. 20:06:01 fe[nl]ix: thanks 20:08:12 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-11-85.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:09:07 patrick_ [n=patrick@f102140.upc-f.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 20:10:16 given that all CL-on-unix implement *, which per unix is a shellism, it is not unreasonable to implement ~ as well 20:10:25 tmh: Thanks. I figured you'd have an opinion. 20:10:54 kpreid: uh, that * thing does not translate 1:1 to shell 20:11:03 no, but it's analogous 20:11:12 antgreen [n=Anthony@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:14 it is a feature which is not part of what open(2) etc. know 20:11:16 coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:23 nanobit [i=yracehto@gw.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:55 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:38 yeah it's really stupid that pathnames in lisp support wildcards. 20:13:43 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.15] has quit ["Leaving..."] 20:13:44 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-24-44.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:02 -!- coderdad_ [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:14:51 http://www.coool-stuff.com/wp-content/uploads/project-management.jpg 20:16:17 foom: why stupid? 20:16:23 kpreid: however, unlike ~, * is common to multiple platforms 20:16:27 -!- spacebat1 [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-26-218.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:18:52 -!- s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-168-234-251.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:19:16 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 20:19:58 pkhuong: Is this a proposal to add a new quality term to optimize, or would these values be controlled entirely with speed and safety? 20:20:57 -!- nanobit [i=yracehto@gw.pulsar-zone.net] has quit ["bye"] 20:21:02 The qualities would be directly exposed. 20:21:49 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-236-21.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:33 npoektop: you can also try /Xach/ 'tilde' library for sbcl 20:23:25 nanobit [i=tsinamle@gw.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:26 cmo-0: i'll look. thanks 20:24:00 pkhuong: Ok, that was my only concern. I've not actually gotten to the point in my code where I'm handling these issues directly, but would want to have fine-grained control over the settings when the need arises. 20:24:46 what are the intended use of wild pathnames, other than something to give to cl:directory (and hope it gives you an answer, since its expectations seem to vary wildly between implementations)? 20:24:55 prxq: because wa path-with-wildcard is a representation of how to search for multiple paths, not a path itself. 20:26:25 pkhuong: Is there a section in the SBCL documentation for optimization qualities other the standard ones? 20:28:23 clhs optimize 20:28:23 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_optimi.htm 20:28:27 sbcl optimize 20:28:48 *tmh* was hoping specbot would handle the SBCL manual. 20:29:23 jao [n=jao@21.Red-83-43-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:11 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-194.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:30:29 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-128-45.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:47 tmh: Apart from inhibit-warnings, I don't think so. 20:33:25 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-24-44.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:33:53 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:34:09 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:34:40 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 20:38:07 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has joined #lisp 20:39:13 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229079165.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 20:41:55 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:42:06 gh7d395pi69wd [n=asdf@unaffiliated/gh7d395pi69wd] has joined #lisp 20:45:26 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:46:13 Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:46:37 PhazeDK [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:46:45 -!- PhazeDK [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 20:47:36 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:48:46 pkhuong: Signed zeroes are the only thing I rely on. I've never had code that required handling NaN or infinities. While not using denormalized numbers, I can envision some instances where I might want to. 20:49:37 tmh: The main reason I included denorms in exceptional values is that in theory people could trap on them. 20:50:35 francogrex [n=franco@225.153-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:51:30 The text should be more precise on how exactly denorms (or inexact results) may be mishandled. I don't think that the way denorms are usually used could clash with even (FLOAT-EXCEPTIONAL-VALUES 0). 20:51:43 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp89-110-47-113.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 20:51:43 pkhuong: I think it looks good. I also wouldn't worry about exceptional values too much, I don't think I've ever used code, including commercial code, that handled them. 20:53:28 -!- jao [n=jao@21.Red-83-43-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:53:39 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:53:56 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 20:55:54 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-152.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 20:56:58 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:57:07 moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 20:58:16 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-152.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:02:08 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:02:13 dmiles_akf [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:38 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:06:46 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:07:06 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:08:25 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 21:10:33 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:10:53 spicey [n=e@87.99.83.235] has joined #lisp 21:12:08 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:12:12 -!- moocow is now known as holycow 21:12:18 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:12:34 moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 21:12:51 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 21:13:38 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:14:29 trying to use cffi library in opensolaris' clisp fails with "CFFI requires CLISP compiled with dynamic FFI support.": any idea if that's a conceptual problem on solaris, or just a minor hitch and clisp recompile can help? 21:14:52 you certainly can try to recompile it 21:15:44 spicey: --with-dynamic-ffi is the flag IIRC, ./configure --help will tell you if that's correct or not. 21:18:07 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-153-169.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:19:03 Is there a version of defadvice that works with SBCL? 21:19:06 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:19:39 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:19:49 -!- sepisultrum [n=enigma@hcl-club.lu] has left #lisp 21:20:14 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:46 aha, it's --with-ffcall, and it needs additional ffcall library, i'll see how it goes further (down the rabbit hole) 21:24:52 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:25:10 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 21:25:55 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-62-39.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:13 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.254.181] has joined #lisp 21:27:28 -!- Jasko3 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:28:19 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.180.180] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:28:45 ah, I see sbcl:encapsulate... 21:28:55 s/sbcl/sb-int/ 21:29:53 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-128-45.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:30:18 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:31:21 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:34 typedef [n=typedef@c-69-248-23-51.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:39 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:34:14 -!- mdavid [n=mdavid@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:34:48 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:23 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-155-208.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:35:55 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:36:45 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:38:11 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:38:20 spicey: oh, --with-dynamic-ffi is probably ECL. 21:38:21 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:35 spicey: have you tried SBCL? 21:38:37 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.139.124] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:39:40 -!- truthair [n=truthair@inconsistent.nl] has left #lisp 21:39:41 -!- danlei``` [n=user@pD9E2CA66.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 21:39:43 chris2_ [n=chris@dslb-094-216-215-032.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:03 -!- patrick_ [n=patrick@f102140.upc-f.chello.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:41:13 -!- chris2_ is now known as chris2 21:41:38 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-69-232-220-184.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:56 -!- francogrex [n=franco@225.153-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:44:33 -!- pkok [n=patrick@f102140.upc-f.chello.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:44:43 luis, yes, but not on opensolaris :) 21:44:54 luis, I didn't see any stock packages of sbcl for os (i'm using it only for the third day and still finding my way around here), so i was thinking about some solution without too much mess first 21:45:39 as i'm just starting learning lisp, i think it won't matter that much 21:45:51 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-69-232-220-184.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:46:08 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-69-232-220-184.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:48 There's a solaris/x86 binary on . You could use it directly or first bootstrap a 1.0.30. 21:48:22 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-69-232-220-184.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:48:33 -!- antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has left #lisp 21:48:36 antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:44 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-69-232-220-184.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:50 hahaha, I am (in gmail) getting "Slow VC++ builds?" next to sbcl-devel messages (-: 21:50:38 I'm finding that pretty hilarious, even if it's a wildly outdated joke, thanks to the great work by the many people who have made sbcl a faster compiler (: 21:50:45 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:50:55 that is all. good night. 21:51:03 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 21:52:16 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-9c51ddafa3ebc90f] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:54:42 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:55:10 -!- typedef [n=typedef@c-69-248-23-51.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:56:23 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:44 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-17-7.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:56:53 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 21:56:55 -!- kmels is now known as kmels-ZzZ 22:01:39 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-97-94.w86-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:03:18 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:04:48 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F609.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:05:05 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:22 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:10:46 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 22:12:16 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-241-91.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:10 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-139-125.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:22 dalton [n=user7994@187.34.44.222] has joined #lisp 22:15:39 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:18:48 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:20:26 -!- rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 22:20:39 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:22:43 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host230.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 22:24:55 -!- pragma_ [n=pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:25:53 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit ["leaving"] 22:26:32 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-62-39.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:31:56 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-69-232-220-184.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:32:01 mixtli [n=Informat@200.76.107.131] has joined #lisp 22:35:53 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 22:40:36 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:41:22 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:35 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 22:44:19 quack [n=fhc@81.193.95.38] has joined #lisp 22:46:06 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:47:06 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:31 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:51:13 Is there a way to go automatically through the GPG signature miss restart during asdf-install (in order to automate it)? 22:52:08 quack: yes, you could write a handler-bind around your asdf-install:install form. 22:52:14 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:52:44 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 22:52:51 Adlai: yes, I see what you mean. That could be a way. I thought I was missing something from the documentation. 22:52:55 Might be a bad idea though, because asdf-install could theoretically install anything on your code. 22:53:17 *Adlai* was visited by the thinko fairy: s/code/computer/ 22:53:32 Adlai: I would not do it on production systems, but just to lay some test beds for new projects. 22:53:53 Are you trying to build a system on top of asdf-install? 22:53:56 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-112-40.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:24 Not really. Turns out that debian orr ubuntu cl- packages are often out of date. I will contribute to put in date one or two, but I cannot possibly do them all. 22:56:10 spicey: ccl works on solaris x86 if you want another option 22:56:46 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-76-115-73-70.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:01 quack: how does asdf-install relate to that? 22:57:30 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Client Quit] 22:57:45 -!- Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-18.zen.co.uk] has quit [] 22:57:45 Adlai: I download and install into ~/.sbcl/s* teh packages I need. 22:58:13 That is, until I come up with a better option. 22:58:23 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 22:58:23 minion: tell quack about clbuild 22:58:24 quack: please look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 22:58:38 rme: why is ccl/x86's array-dimension-limit smaller than a fixnum ? 22:58:39 rme, thanks, good to know, i'll take a look at it as well 22:58:46 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 22:59:07 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:59:39 quack: clbuild seems to currently be the best option for CL package management 23:00:35 clbuild, says ye? I definitely must dig into that. 23:01:04 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-0-83.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:12 fe[nl]ix: In 32-bit ccl, most everything that isn't an immediate object or a cons is a thing called a uvector. A uvector's header word contains an 8-bit subtag, leaving 24 bits for the uvector's element count. 23:02:08 quack: it seemed like a bad option to me at first because it's just a shell script, but trust me, it's better than asdf-install in several ways. I don't use all the features though, I just use it for package management, but if you want, you can also use it to install/upgrade SBCL and SLIME 23:03:52 I find little use now to upgrade SBCL, since debian is now at 1.0.29.11, the last available version. But to set up the environment, if it is better than ASDF-INSTALL, I'll definitely give it a try. 23:05:18 Yep, there's no need to mess with GPG keys etc, because only approved packages are available through clbuild. There's a way for you to add packages to clbuild's local registry though, if you have projects that you want it to manage for you, and I think that there are also available some guidelines on how to get your new project available to others through clbuild. 23:05:25 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:43 Thanks. asdf-install was getting a bit on my nerve. 23:06:04 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:06:22 Yeah, I used it a lot when I first got it, and now I've been steadily "migrating" everything to clbuild. clbuild is also neat because it relies on VCSs to keep the projects up-to-date. 23:07:36 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-176.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 23:08:03 fe[nl]ix: SBCL stores the array length next to the header word, not so with CCL apparently. 23:08:34 So, not all the projects that are in asdf-install can be installed by cl-build. Am I right? 23:08:35 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-139-125.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:08:43 quack: and vice-versa. 23:09:04 quack: but you can add them to clbuild, usually. 23:09:06 -!- ixmatus [n=ixm@wsip-24-234-73-31.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [] 23:09:15 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:09:22 luis: thanks. I will. 23:09:49 quack: clbuild doesn't attempt to support all the available packages, but rather a mostly "community-approved" subset. 23:10:47 That may well work for me. I do not need a whole array of packages. 23:11:50 by the way, what ever happened to mudballs? 23:12:26 fe[nl]ix: http://ccl.clozure.com/ccl-documentation.html#Tagging-scheme might give a few more details if you're interested. 23:14:02 Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:59 pkhuong, luis, Adlai: thanks for your help. Tomorrow I will give it a try. 23:17:08 -!- quack [n=fhc@81.193.95.38] has left #lisp 23:18:22 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:18:28 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 23:19:14 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:44 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 23:23:36 rme: I'm a bit confused by what is said on that site... it says at the beginning that those first 3 or 4 bits are zero, but then it seems you use them for tagging later on? 23:23:42 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-241-91.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:27:17 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-152.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 23:28:51 a lisp object will be located at an address with the low 3/4 bits zero 23:28:59 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-84.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 23:29:52 so you don't need those bits to distinguish between objects -> they can be used as tags 23:30:41 drafael [n=tapio@130.216.93.246] has joined #lisp 23:30:41 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 23:31:11 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:31:18 ooh, I get it now. That page is mostly talking about the address used to point to a Lisp object... so when dereferencing an address, the last 3 or 4 bits are ignored, but they're used for tagging. ok. 23:32:53 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.249.208] has joined #lisp 23:34:08 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:34:55 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:35:16 For example, suppose the address a is #x12345671. The low three bits of a are #b001, which tells us that a is a cons. The first half of the cons is the word at a - 1, and the other half is at a + 3. 23:35:17 pragma_ [n=pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has joined #lisp 23:37:07 rouslan [n=Rouslan@pool-64-222-181-252.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:31 skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has joined #lisp 23:45:33 -!- Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:46:03 rme: which platform is that example on? I'm a bit confused that a word seems to take up 4 memory addresses there -- I thought a word was 2 bytes. 23:46:44 -!- drafael [n=tapio@130.216.93.246] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:47:14 -!- mixtli [n=Informat@200.76.107.131] has quit ["Saliendo"] 23:47:42 I was using word in the sense of "natural word size", i.e., 32 bits on a 32-bit system. 23:47:46 antoszka_ [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 23:49:02 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:49:21 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-36-129.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:27 rme, huge thanks again for the ccl reference, it is incredibly painless under solaris (at least for my tasks) 23:49:52 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.254.181] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:54:45 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:03 so each memory address is a byte = sequence of 8 bits, a word is 4 bytes, and a cons cell is a pair of words, and in one word, you can store an address like #x12345671, so cons cells (or other Lisp data pointers) can refer to more data. Got it, thanks for the explanation. 23:55:36 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-59-31.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:55:49 cmm [n=cmm@79.176.59.31] has joined #lisp 23:56:34 -!- Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:57:12 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:07 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r2r126.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]