00:00:15 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-43-105.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:03:17 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 00:04:18 -!- fvw is now known as kkd 00:05:58 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:06:04 does anyone have a link to that paper about the impossibility of reimplementing special variables with UNWIND-PROTECT? 00:07:35 -!- macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["shutdown -h now"] 00:14:08 -!- pragma_ is now known as _pragma 00:15:38 -!- kkd [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has left #lisp 00:16:16 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:17:28 mathrick: You can't in case of multithreading 00:17:31 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-42-248.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:17:45 tcr: I know 00:17:57 I asked about the link, not the explanation, I know it already :) 00:18:40 It sounded like you were talking of the general case 00:18:45 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@86.50.69.116] has quit ["100 days are gone..."] 00:18:52 it's sufficiently general 00:19:06 you can't convincingly fake them if you don't have them 00:19:48 Well it's how they're implemented in Elisp I'd guess 00:21:12 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-372.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 00:21:49 And regarding sufficiently general... I'll give you the sufficiently general advice to use google :P 00:22:32 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 00:22:53 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 00:23:08 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:25:29 What's a good way to measure mutex contention? 00:25:49 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@24.21.76.57] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:26:16 luis: google says "dtrace" 00:26:23 I guess it's one good way 00:26:35 requires dtrace tho 00:27:12 I hear dtrace rules 00:27:22 mathrick: thanks. 00:27:34 -!- _pragma is now known as pragma_ 00:28:44 kpreid: yeah. Linux has some thingo that's supposed to be almost like dtrace, except it lacks the general polish like, say, not requiring 20 patches and three different projects to be in any way usable, and the last time I tried it, I could reliably crash the kernel from usermode :) 00:29:19 mathrick: isn't there a linux port of dtrace? 00:29:35 <[df]> luis: I think licensing issues prevent it 00:29:40 haven't heard about it. There's a reimplementation of the same general idea 00:29:56 *luis* found this ftp://crisp.dynalias.com/pub/release/website/dtrace/ 00:30:18 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-127-110.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 00:30:38 http://librenix.com/?inode=13584 00:30:40 interesting 00:30:47 luis: yeah, it's a new thing then 00:31:47 chessguy [n=chessguy@64.206.252.100] has joined #lisp 00:32:09 http://sourceware.org/systemtap/ <-- that's the thing I tried previously which ended in crashes from usermode 00:35:56 sellout [n=greg@pool-71-246-30-161.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:48 systemtap afaik didn't need any patches in kernel, afaik (the mechanism is quite different from dtrace, but covers only kernel) 00:38:17 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:38:38 IIRC the main difference was that dtrace required tracing points to be prepared in source, while kprobes can be attached to symbols 00:44:04 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has joined #lisp 00:44:51 -!- krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-93-84.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:47:15 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 00:47:27 -!- sellout [n=greg@pool-71-246-30-161.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 00:49:28 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:20 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-73-127.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:06:37 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-27-92.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:10:59 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:19:04 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:21:36 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:23:09 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-35.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:24:06 http://forum.alsopythons.org/ 01:29:40 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-63.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 01:34:44 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@64.206.252.100] has quit [] 01:37:56 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:24 -!- zbigniew_ is now known as zbigniew 01:44:03 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit ["leaving"] 01:46:18 chessguy [n=chessguy@64.206.252.100] has joined #lisp 01:46:23 rouslan [n=Rouslan@pool-70-109-137-208.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:16 -!- jao [n=jao@21.Red-83-43-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:54:13 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 02:01:03 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 02:01:06 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@64.206.252.100] has quit [] 02:04:28 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:06:10 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 02:08:53 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-24-16-255-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:16 I'm gonna make "trying to get a non-commercial common lisp viable in win32" a scheduled yearly event - keeping notes so I don't waste time on the same activities. 02:23:52 wakeup_vanuber [n=wakeup@koln-5d815479.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 02:25:12 -!- dmiles [n=dmiles@c-24-16-255-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:26:15 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-63.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:29:05 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-222.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 02:29:43 Puppster [n=jared@99-23-192-153.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:20 if two symbols are in the same package, will their symbol-packages always be eq? and how would i figure that out on my own? 02:34:58 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:36:43 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-48-184-44.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:36:50 hello 02:36:54 Puppster: by reading the spec? 02:37:19 Modius: clozure should handle that fine, I think. 02:37:32 I have got a question. http://paste.lisp.org/display/84202 02:40:01 -!- wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d816e87.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:40:46 tomoyuki28jp, you want to convert inline lambdas to functions? 02:41:12 in general that's called lambda lifting and it's a bit fiddly as you have keep track of the closed over vars 02:41:18 c|mell: The point is the above code use closure where as the second one doesn't. 02:41:22 no, he wants to convert them to the blow :D 02:41:58 Ralith, that would be rather profitable :) 02:42:20 c|mell: yeah, you mean it's hard to know the surrounded environment, right? 02:42:40 tomoyuki28jp, look up lambda lifting -- it's done in many schemes, don't know about cl 02:42:53 -!- ausente is now known as dalton 02:42:54 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-31.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:43:11 c|mell: thanks a lot for the info. 02:45:10 pirattrev1 [n=trev@pool-72-72-121-31.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:45 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-31.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 02:46:52 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-31.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:47:18 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:48:07 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-31.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 02:50:35 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:51:33 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:39 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:58:38 chavo_ [n=user@c-76-17-212-158.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:45 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-76-17-212-158.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:13:06 chavo_ [n=user@c-76-17-212-158.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:29 kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:17:18 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.68.56] has quit [] 03:26:06 Bigshot_ [n=BIG_SHOT@CPE002129abc864-CM001ac35cd4d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:26:15 is there autocompletion for prolog? 03:26:19 in emacs 03:27:47 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-76-17-212-158.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:27:57 chavo_ [n=user@c-76-17-212-158.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:02 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:32:33 what books on lisp ref are any good? does O'reilly make one? 03:34:17 practical common lisp's alright 03:38:55 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-76-17-212-158.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:39:50 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:43:17 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:46:11 jlf [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-82.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:47:21 pirattrev1: The hyperspec is an excellent online reference for Lisp. 03:49:47 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-127-110.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:49:49 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:50:01 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-105-105.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 03:51:09 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-222.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:55:51 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-208.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 04:00:35 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:03:57 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:09:00 girzel [n=user@123.121.238.68] has joined #lisp 04:09:58 dmiles [n=dmiles@c-24-16-255-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:43 -!- kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 04:12:37 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit ["leaving"] 04:14:36 Demosthenes: PCL's not really a reference work, though. 04:15:04 ah 04:15:15 pirattrev1: I second the recommendation for the hyperspec. If you like dead tree products, Guy Steele's book is a bit dated but still useful. 04:15:35 Of course, if Margolies' book ever comes out ... 04:18:21 pardon me if the question's stupid -- is it possible to write a portable library (probably running on top of bordeaux-threads) that provides microthreads for CL? 04:18:37 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:18:40 or would proper scheduling/management of threads require compiler hackage? 04:19:02 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-184.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 04:19:55 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:24:11 sykopomp: Well, microthread support requires pretty processor-specific calls (if it's even possible), so it's a hardware-bound problem. I'd think you'd need to use the compiler and/or os calls at a pretty low level. But it's not a problem I've really thought about. 04:25:44 aja: so you can't just simulate microthreads by writing your own scheduler and spreading code execution between a relatively small number of native threads? 04:26:30 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-24-16-255-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:26:42 sykopomp, that would kind of miss the point of the "micro" part of microthreads iiuc 04:26:43 sykopomp: Well, that's not how I understand microthreads. I understand them to be small peices of code that can be concurrently scheduled to take advantage of processor parallelization features. 04:27:28 sykopomp: Consequently, they need to targetted at the feature and instruction set of a particular processor. 04:27:28 most modern processors are superscalar anyway, microthreads are a way of doing that better with more compiler support iiuc 04:27:33 c|mell: not necessarily. creating a closure and shoving it in a scheduler queue is probably lighter than spawning an entire OS thread every time. 04:27:50 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.238.68] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:27:59 sykopomp, maybe you are talking about fibers (something else) -- in which case look at cl-cont 04:28:26 there's lots of names that get tossed around for this stuff. I'll look into cl-cont. 04:28:55 microthreads is something very different involving the isa (as aja said) 04:29:53 I'm thinking about the kind of thing, say, stackless python does. Are those fibers? 04:30:09 -!- Bigshot_ [n=BIG_SHOT@CPE002129abc864-CM001ac35cd4d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.1/20090715094852]"] 04:30:41 (and what I heard was that what erlang does to actually spread to all cores is that it spawns a native thread for each core and schodules processes into each thread) 04:30:58 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:31:07 yes, that's fibers i think and something like cl-cont could be used for it 04:31:25 hm 04:31:34 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 04:33:49 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:00 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:39:15 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-184.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:42:00 -!- Terminal42 [n=justin@141.2.205.68.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit ["presence lost"] 04:42:50 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erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 04:55:25 http://paste.lisp.org/display/84206 .. works better for me wrt. understanding the "point" 04:55:26 Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 04:55:32 ..continuations that is 04:56:33 ..i might be doing something totally wrong though .. *shrug* 04:59:23 piso_ [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:37 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:04:32 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:06:43 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:07:30 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:07:58 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:08:11 aja 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joined #lisp 06:32:20 esmhammer [n=esm@dialin-159-106.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 06:32:20 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:20 azuk` [i=azure@s2.org] has joined #lisp 06:32:20 sepisultrum [n=enigma@hcl-club.lu] has joined #lisp 06:32:20 guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 06:32:20 Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 06:32:20 sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 06:32:20 lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 06:32:20 Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-207-110.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:20 koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.107.70] has joined #lisp 06:32:20 hdurer [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-680b263bdfae315a] has joined #lisp 06:32:20 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:20 alexbobp [n=alex@ppp-70-253-87-206.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:20 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 06:32:20 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 06:32:20 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 06:32:20 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 06:32:20 vandemar [n=anon@2001:470:1f10:56b:0:0:0:4] has joined #lisp 06:32:20 Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 06:32:20 wakeup_vanuber [n=wakeup@koln-5d815479.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 06:34:36 g'day the #lisp 06:35:32 hey schmx 06:35:36 (and good morning everyone) 06:36:49 hi schmx , beach 06:38:29 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-48-184-44.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:38:58 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:39:22 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:00 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:44:04 niche [n=haf@ool-18bd3ac7.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:06 Why hello beach ! 06:44:10 i have focus 06:44:36 does anyone understand the concept of using proxy servers themselves as the key to hidden servers ? 06:44:43 meaning that TOR is completely unnecessary ? 06:44:54 it's not lisp I can program it in, but language 06:44:57 using parentheses 06:45:05 to define the idea correctly. 06:45:20 i "get" it now. 06:45:23 lisp is clarity . 06:45:46 highlighted parentheses analogous to folders for infinite concepts 06:45:51 Please adjust your dosage. 06:45:53 a concept within a concept within a concept 06:46:07 Dr., I don't need anymore medicine, thanks. 06:46:23 Sorry, I know I'm not a first name basis with you. 06:46:28 *not on 06:46:28 Less or more, just as long as you babble less. 06:46:36 But am I making sense ? 06:46:51 No. You're raving like a hop-head. 06:47:01 opiates ? drunk ? 06:49:13 -!- rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:49:24 rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 06:49:31 sunexplodes [n=somethin@bas2-kitchener06-1096652469.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 06:50:20 -!- sunexplodes [n=somethin@bas2-kitchener06-1096652469.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 06:50:28 isn't this all that lisp is: (if you combine ((the image of a person(ex. 1 method for displaying is here)) with (a blurred image of the person(ex 2. apply new method to ex. 1)) you should get this) 06:50:49 that is literally all lisp is 06:50:54 am i correct ? 06:50:59 is my intuition false ? 06:51:07 or naive ? 06:51:08 *sigh* 06:51:16 What are you babbling about? 06:51:25 i was told that I was suffering from psychosis 06:51:31 so I will just leave this 06:51:34 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-187-178.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:51:55 -!- aircastle is now known as aircastle_away 06:52:09 hjpark [n=user@jaram.hanyang.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 06:52:11 <[df]> niche: I suggest you blog about it 06:52:30 <[df]> 'a concept within a concept within a concept' sounds suitable for the web 2.0 crowd 06:52:32 anyone who make mod_lisp2 works? 06:54:24 niche: unbalanced parenthesis 06:54:29 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 06:55:01 pstickne i don't see it 06:55:45 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-231-59-100.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:55:57 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-187-178.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 06:56:51 outside is not closed 06:57:13 niche: You don't see it because you didn't use a parenthesis-balancing editor to write the text. 06:57:17 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-231-59-100.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:35 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 06:57:42 beach: you mean you couldn't just 06:57:52 'tell' right away? I bet you start counting from 1 as well! :-) 06:58:23 pstickne: Yeah, right. 06:59:16 but i only missed one! 06:59:19 with no editor! 06:59:39 fusss [i=738014b5@gateway/web/freenode/x-aaabb671ff1a3317] has joined #lisp 06:59:50 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:06:20 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-231-59-100.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:06:26 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-231-59-100.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:08:57 -!- fusss [i=738014b5@gateway/web/freenode/x-aaabb671ff1a3317] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 07:13:26 -!- hjpark [n=user@jaram.hanyang.ac.kr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:20:17 -!- aircastle_away is now known as aircastle 07:25:20 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:25:58 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-231-59-100.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:28:21 girzel [n=user@123.121.238.68] has joined #lisp 07:29:18 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 07:29:20 mgm [n=mgm@m2b5e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 07:29:21 good morning 07:29:38 hello serichsen 07:29:46 -!- mgm [n=mgm@m2b5e36d0.tmodns.net] has left #lisp 07:30:11 mgm [n=mgm@m2b5e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:22 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 07:36:22 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 07:36:39 heya. 07:36:46 hello tic 07:37:32 beach, I'm making a half-serious attempt at learning French! I watch the cartoon Les Mondes Engloutis, it's finally gotten Scandinavian subs. :) 07:38:24 tic: Excellent! You can also learn by reading Asterix etc. 07:38:43 For FORMAT's ~F, how do I make it show the leading zero? I can't make any sense of the 'spec. 07:39:35 beach, mhm, it's easier to read compared to watching -- while I do have the subs, I have to rewind constantly beacuse I keep thinking I understand what words map to the Norwegian sub. But I like it. 07:39:59 tic: Something with padding, you have to give it the character to pad with if I remember correctrly. 07:42:00 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:42:02 Ah, that worked, thanks! I got the impression it'd pad /all/ required space with that, such that "~4,1,,0F" 0.1 would be written "0000.1". 07:46:38 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-372.yok.fi] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:46:39 tic: As I read the spec, a leading 0 before the decimal point should always be printed. 07:47:29 Hm.. 07:47:45 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-160-33-122.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:51 tic: Do you have a case where ".1" is printed? 07:48:12 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-372.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 07:48:23 beach, yeah, but it /could/ also just have been me putting a too narrow width field. Probably was, even. 07:49:51 tic: That doesn't seem like what the spec says to do. 07:50:00 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:50:33 tic: If no overflow char is given, then more whan w positions should be used, if I read it right. 07:52:13 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:52:14 tic: But yeah, I tried (format t "3,2f" 0.1) in SBCL, and it omits the leading 0. 07:52:24 beach, right 07:52:47 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-15541.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 07:53:03 According to my interpretation of the spec, that is not allowed. 07:53:57 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:54:39 beach, I don't think it states very clearly that you /must/ print a leading zero, though. 07:54:56 tic: yeah, it's a bit vague. 07:55:01 "If the overflowchar parameter is omitted, then the scaled value is printed using more than w characters, as many more as may be needed." 07:56:39 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-160-33-122.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:57:58 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-160-33-122.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:59:11 ";; optional leading zero", SBCL says. 08:00:09 tic: There is a long US tradition of omitting the leading 0. 08:01:22 A bit like their long tradition of writing dates in a completely stupid way. 08:02:36 The Swedes get the dates right, but then they do addresses wrong. 08:03:02 Street name, then number, then zip code, then city, etc. 08:03:15 It is sort of like the US date format. 08:03:30 Actually, I think the far east does dates best. Unambiguous field markers. 08:03:50 Having characters for 'year', 'month' and 'day' helps. 08:05:15 curious, do countries which do get their dates "right" also write them out in the same format? The US mm/dd/yy format is illogical, but consistent with forms like "July 28th, 2009", which is at least aesthetically pleasing. 08:05:35 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590e8f4e.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 08:05:58 hefner: Don't know what you mean by "right format", but Sweden has used ISO8601 for quite some time. 08:06:00 a lot of europeans write "3 July xxxx" so they are consistent 08:06:48 The lesson here is that encoding by position is a bad idea. 08:06:51 hefner: Oh, I see. 08:07:06 vandemar: On the other hand, that order is inconsistent with ISO8601 08:09:57 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:10:13 Taggnostr2 [n=x@dyn57-372.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 08:11:03 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@103.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:11:41 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-stm/doc/index.html what's the name of the lib that generates these pages? 08:12:18 proq` [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 08:12:31 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:12:54 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 08:14:41 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:15:20 -!- gonzojive [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:16:19 gonzojive [n=red@128.12.64.230] has joined #lisp 08:16:40 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-160-33-122.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:17:12 alexsuraci_ [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:39 lucia [n=lucia@148.Red-79-148-241.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:49 hrk [n=hrk@acurwa001058.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:18:30 Hi everyone. I'm learning Lisp. I have a question. 08:19:04 Go right ahead. 08:19:16 Is it safe to say that the input to functions is evaluated whereas their output is not, while the converse holds for macros? Their input is never evaluated and their output is? 08:19:59 Interesting way of putting it. 08:21:02 -!- alexsuraci_ [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:22:03 -!- mgm [n=mgm@m2b5e36d0.tmodns.net] has left #lisp 08:22:10 lucia: it's evaluated, just at a different point in the process... 08:22:12 any counterexamples? 08:23:10 lucia: I don't think that way of phrasing it is good. Nothing prevents the output of a function to be evaluated, for instance, if that function is called in order to generate the output of a macro. 08:23:19 lucia: (eval (car '((print "FOO")))), (defmacro my-progn (&body body) `(progn ,@body)) (my-progn (print "BAR")) 08:23:30 mgm [n=mgm@m2b5e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:51 lucia: The first evaluates the return value of a function; the latter show that the arguments to a macro are evaluated 08:23:56 sykopomp: I understand everything gets evaluated eventually, but I was saying 'just right in the body of the macro/function'. Of course, outside of the macro/function things continue to happen 08:24:31 lucia: (defmacro print-foo (foo) (print foo)) 08:24:33 tcr: whoa, a bit slower please. I'm just learning :) 08:24:51 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:25:01 lucia: The way to think about it is: Macro are essentially functions that are run at compile-time, and they operate on source-code (they take source-code, and return source-code) 08:25:24 along the same lines, (defun foo-mac? (foo) `(print ,foo)) 08:25:31 lucia: Whereas functions operate on domain-level objects (i.e. object of your application) 08:27:39 tcr: so, macros operate on things that are passed unevaluated to them because it may even be invalid form that will later become source code but it's not in the right form when the macro receives them, whereas functions operate on things that must be readily evaluable upon entering. Isn't that what I said? Just asking 08:27:55 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-372.yok.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:28:32 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:28:34 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:38 lucia: macros operate on source code, at compile time. It's like a function, but at a different time. 08:28:52 lucia: I think it is much better to understand the mechanism than to try to find simplified, but possibly incorrect, terminology to describe what is going on. 08:29:01 lucia: Arguments to functions are evaluated _before_ they're executed. 08:29:14 lucia: The function only ever sees the result of their evaluation 08:29:43 poor non-lazy hard-working language! 08:30:07 lucia: (fn (foobar)), FN will see the result of evaluating (FOOBAR); (macro (foobar)), the MACRO will see a list whose first element is the symbol FOOBAR. 08:30:08 beach: I agree, that's why I just came to ask! 08:30:21 -!- meingbg [n=user@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:30:23 macros are nifty functions that take source ... I mean, data ... and produce more data ... used as source ;P 08:31:52 tcr: maybe I didn't explain myself. I wanted to say just that: The REPL evaluates arguments to a functions as far as it can before calling it. Isn't it? And the REPL leaves the arguments to a macro alone, the macro receives them unevaluated. Is that right? 08:32:16 pstickne: I know, it's a bit twisty :) 08:32:22 lucia: it evaluates them once. 08:32:47 sykopomp: please elaborate? 08:32:50 lucia: try ''(1 2 3) 08:33:01 then try (eval ''(1 2 3)) 08:33:36 then try (eval (eval ''(1 2 3))) :) 08:33:48 that last one will error 08:33:53 yup 08:34:21 the repl evaluates once. (loop (print (eval (read)))) <-- 08:34:24 stop confusing the guy. ma 08:34:41 Seems he got it 08:35:20 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:35:27 lucia: can you tell me -why- the last one errors? 08:35:45 1 is not a function 08:36:58 lucia: lists are source code. 08:37:36 think about it this way, repl after reading the code goes ahead and checks if each symbol after parenthesis is a macro, if it is, it replaces the whole expr 08:37:42 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:37:59 -!- Taggnostr2 [n=x@dyn57-372.yok.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 08:38:20 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-372.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 08:38:52 with result of a macro, then tries again. try macroexpand-1 on some code like for loop 08:39:15 macroexpanding loop is a good way of getting confused. :-) 08:39:21 mgm I think I get it 08:39:51 tic: macroexpanding loop is a fantastic way to have some lulz :) 08:40:39 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:41:08 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:44:17 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:44:35 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:33 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 08:50:37 dxxxm [n=haf@ool-18bd3ac7.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:06 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 08:54:18 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.20.181] has joined #lisp 08:55:32 "find hot sexy dates in ~a, ~a" (slot geoip-record 'city) (slot geoip-rocord 'state) 08:55:39 test your geo-intelligence 97.107.133.187:8080 08:56:16 nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:18 :) 08:56:27 let me know if it doesn't get your ISP's city ;-) 08:57:27 region names are borked for australia because i haven't paid for the pro version of the database 08:57:37 it show NSW as "02" 08:58:13 it worked fine here (Vancouver, WA, US) -- not open/free mappings of quality? 08:58:18 s/not/no/ 08:58:56 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 08:59:11 it takes daily upkeep to maintain a db like that; maxmind does a fine job of releasing theirs, but i can understand why they want to be paid for a subscription 09:02:41 -!- mgm [n=mgm@m2b5e36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:03:41 | and those from around NIL are doubly so. 09:04:41 Lisp nirvana! 09:05:48 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:08:04 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.238.68] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:08:11 -!- niche [n=haf@ool-18bd3ac7.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:11:22 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:12:02 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-31.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:12:26 heh 09:16:54 -!- aircastle is now known as aircastle_away 09:18:13 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-160-33-122.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:06 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:22:47 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:23:28 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:23:46 Ok thanks everyone for the help. I assumed some things in my first statement that are not always true and was confused with your replies. 09:29:02 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 09:30:22 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 09:30:50 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest74745 09:33:42 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:41:00 -!- Guest74745 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 09:41:18 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-31.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:42:19 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 09:42:47 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest59380 09:44:25 -!- Guest59380 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 09:47:42 what's the origin of the "Command Names Like This" tradition in CLIM and Hemlock? 09:48:17 what's the origin of it in the lispm? 09:49:10 aha, didn't think of lispms 09:49:18 Anyway. I'm slowly getting used to it in Hemlock (as user), but at the same time I remain unconvinced of its merits (as a programmer). 09:49:59 I'm mainly wondering: Is it worth it, even though it breaks M-. and makes call sites look unlike the definition site? 09:50:02 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E46B40.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:59 jao [n=jao@21.Red-83-43-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:26 I'm regularly seeing stuff like (defhvar "Interactive History Length" ...) and then start searching for "Interactive History Length". 09:51:39 The ghosts of the hemlock authors looking over my shoulders are laughing at that point, because they know the variable is actually retrieved using (VALUE INTERACTIVE-HISTORY-LENGTH), not its string name. 09:52:07 would be cute if it they used |Interactive History Length| and did without the magic 09:52:14 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:53:18 oh, that's a cute idea. Would also repair M-. (asssuming it knows how to find the entire ||-delimited symbol at point, which shouldn't be _too_ hard). 10:04:50 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 10:05:13 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 10:05:47 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:09:16 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-31.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:15:36 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:54 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:18:10 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:19:06 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [] 10:24:01 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:26:05 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 10:30:58 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-79-16.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:37:41 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-15541.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:39:27 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B6B3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:14 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 10:43:29 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 10:47:52 girzel [n=user@123.121.225.110] has joined #lisp 10:53:12 -!- lucia [n=lucia@148.Red-79-148-241.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:54:59 niko22 [n=fr33fall@159-213-dsl.kielnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:55:56 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:57:05 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.20.181] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.12/2009070611]"] 11:01:01 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A2E0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:01:50 nunb [n=user@94.161.30.36] has joined #lisp 11:03:27 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 11:08:27 minion: memo for rpg "Space does what you want, but also take a look at http://paste.lisp.org/+1SXY -- these are edits to slime.el" 11:08:28 slime.el": i like lisp... i'm written in it 11:08:42 Ralith: Yeah, that's the tree I'll try barking up a year from now 11:08:54 Ralith: (Again) 11:13:40 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 11:15:07 minion: tell me about PCL 11:15:07 nunb: please see PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 11:15:53 minion: memo to rpg: for slime see paste.lisp.org/+1SXY 11:15:53 Remembered. I'll tell rpg when he/she/it next speaks. 11:16:57 Trying to start slime/Emacs/CCLon Vista64 - Getting "spawning child process: invalid argemnt", I don't think it's actually getting far enough to even try to start the lisp. Any nobrainer pointers on this? 11:17:23 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:17:26 This worked on XEmacs (well, it had problems later down the chain trying regular Emacs to standardize with someone who claims that it works) 11:27:22 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:35:51 -!- exu0 [n=u@dslb-084-056-204-013.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 11:36:01 -!- dxxxm [n=haf@ool-18bd3ac7.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 11:37:03 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-157.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 11:39:59 hello 11:41:06 Modius: If you are starting CCL from within emacs try starting it in a terminal shell and then connecting? 11:41:25 Dow do I do that in windowS? What does that mean, I don't have emacs expertise 11:41:30 fe[nl]ix: hi! are you perchance from the netherlands? 11:41:51 Modius: DOS shell. Start->Run->cmd etc. 11:42:05 nunb: nee 11:42:16 nunb: Are you saying I should start CCL as an independent process - then what? 11:42:25 nunb: Does this get me repl on Emacs somehow? 11:43:56 -!- nunb [n=user@94.161.30.36] has left #lisp 11:44:19 nunb [n=user@94.161.30.36] has joined #lisp 11:44:33 getting to that in a moment, but from http://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter2.html I don't see a mention of windows? 11:45:49 Modius: AFAIK normal configuration for CCL should work on windows... 11:46:02 Modius: you sure you used correct executable? 11:46:08 Thanks - but I'm working on the actual DETAILS of getting it working 11:46:13 I'm having a problem with Gnu Emacs. 11:46:37 I can get to REPL in XEmacs but it has other side -effects. Someone on the mailing list said all was fine in his Gnu Emacs installatyon 11:47:13 But I get "spawning child process: invalid argument" when following the directions and starting swank, and wanted to know if anyone knows a way to backtrack what that means. 11:47:21 I mean, starting slime (from GNU Emacs) 11:48:04 p_l: I can run CCL with the correct EXE from windows. 11:48:08 lisppaste: url 11:48:08 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 11:50:45 nunb pasted "run this from ccl exe" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84222 11:50:47 -!- nunb [n=user@94.161.30.36] has left #lisp 11:50:47 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1DC7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:54 nunb [n=user@94.161.30.36] has joined #lisp 11:51:31 Modius: can you paste the relevant elisp? 11:51:31 -!- aircastle_away [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 11:52:04 asksol [n=ask@91.208.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 11:52:06 nunb: Would you like for me to paste all of slime.el? 11:52:31 no, the section where you set up which lisps to run. 11:52:36 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-212-127.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 11:52:51 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 11:52:54 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-157.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:52:56 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 11:53:15 -!- Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:53:16 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:53:38 (setq inferior-lisp-program "/Users/Nandan/nb/clbuild/clbuild lisp") I guess is what's in my init file 11:53:59 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:54:04 http://paste.lisp.org/display/84223 11:55:47 or, run CCL in 11:55:51 oops 11:57:25 Note : Slime works, albeit with other problems, off this script in XEmacs. I'm trying to get Gnu Emacs started to have the same thing some guy on the mailing list said he was doing 11:58:33 running CCL with --load lispinit where lispinit contains the swank startup stuff I pasted earlier might be a quick way to get Gnu Emacs working. (M-x slime-connect and use the defaults). 11:58:39 Maybe the problem is in my setup starting sh.exe or something to run this script; but was hoping someone here knew enough about emacs to get it to tell me exactly what arguments and child process it was doing 11:58:42 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1D038.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:59:14 What does the Messages buffer say? C-x b *Messages* 11:59:35 apply: Spawning child process: invalid argument 12:00:11 nunb: Assume I know absolutely nothing about Emacs - when starting swank from the .EXE. . . . what then? 12:00:23 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-238-67.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Success] 12:01:19 c:\ccl\scripts> ccl --load init.lisp 12:01:24 ;;; They are implementation dependant, but should be portable to all implementations based on Spice Lisp with little difficulty 12:01:26 That'll start up a swank listener 12:01:33 Then in emacs, M-x slime-connect 12:01:42 localhost and 4005 are the defaults and they should work. 12:01:58 Meanwhile in your cmd/terminal window you should see that swank has started up properly. 12:02:03 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:02:04 And in Emacs you should get the repl. 12:02:16 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:03:08 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 12:03:57 (how many "implementations based on Spice Lisp" did they expect back in 198x?) 12:04:19 nunb: I'm at the dos prompt - I'm assuming you mean for me to run that script from some shell? 12:04:33 Modius: no, from the DOS prompt, in the correct directory. 12:04:47 cmd.exe is the shell in windows. 12:04:57 scripts/ccl64 is not a .bat file, is it? 12:05:03 No, it's a shell script 12:05:16 And I have to set up directories for asdf to find swank 12:06:08 Your instructions will not work for me verbatim - forgive me, I'm a windows guy, the emacs settings and shell scripty stuff that is "oh duhh" obvious to everyone takes time. I've been using lispworks which just works. 12:06:49 the push line in the stuff I pasted sets up the directories, adjust the path for the *central-registry* line. 12:07:15 You already have the dos prompt open, surely cd c:\ccl\scripts 12:07:29 followed by ccl64 --load init.lisp is not a stretch. 12:07:40 http://paste.lisp.org/display/84222? 12:07:45 This way in fact, you don't need to make any emacs settings, so in that sense 12:07:48 it should be easier. 12:07:57 you don't need a shell script to start ccl, no matter which OS you're on. Just run the .exe, possibly with the image as an argument. 12:09:21 (push #p"/home/nb/clbuild/systems/" asdf:*central-registry*) needs to go in the init.lisp file right before 12:09:52 the asdf load-op 12:10:13 (use the path of the directory in which swank.asd is found) 12:10:45 sorry, I hadn't posted the push/asdf line. 12:11:58 nunb: Swank started at port 4005 12:12:20 good, now M-x slime-connect in emacs? 12:12:33 nunb: Thanks! 12:12:37 (that may be Alt-x) 12:12:51 prego 12:14:21 Also, this way you can put all your init stuff in a single init.lisp (one per project dir) and slime-connect to multiple lisps (I have one running on a webserver and one running locally). I had everything in emacs el settings but it got messy quite fast. 12:14:30 So my problem is simply then that Emacs can't run tihs 12:15:15 You think I should just work this way and skip trying to get Emacs to run that script? 12:15:20 Emacs is a bear. It may have tripped over unescaped backslashes, spaces in usernames etc. Try lichtblau's suggestion and use the .exe directly in the emacs inferior-lisp setting, perhaps that'd work. 12:15:56 As I said, the lisprc/init.lisp method is imho better, and saves you having to figure out how emacs initializes itself. 12:16:02 nunb: This may be usable (and of course, this is the first time I've done the "remote lisp" thing so you've actually taught me something that is a value-add) 12:16:18 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:16:38 well, the other good thing is you can put the init.lisp into your version control, and it automatically becomes part of your "project settings" 12:16:44 I *WAS* going to give up. BTW - I always look at this s**t with an eye to "How could I get someone whose background is MS Devstudio and get them up and running on this crap?" 12:17:04 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-43-105.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:17:24 (yeah, I'm not a big fan of MS-devstudio after I had to change some compiler settings /heap=xx and had to go into a weird hidden-away menu item :-) 12:19:14 nunb: That's a different story :) But it seems all this stuff is biased toward Linux users. I see CCL as a bit of a "great white hope" in this regard as (while I have to do more testing) it seems to be a multithreaded deployable lisp one can work with 12:19:54 I like lispworks. But I want to get away from it 12:20:38 well, yes, I should have said emacs is extra-bearish to figure out on windows :-) 12:20:42 Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-18.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:20:48 (similarly on OSX to some extent) 12:21:25 Problem is every time I type in a path that will be read by a script too I don't know which of 3 forms it expects it to be in so there's N * M experimentation in case of failure. 12:21:45 afaik CCL is new to windows and only runs 64bit, but yes, you can hope :) 12:22:06 They allege the 32 bit works on a 32-bit machine 12:22:07 yeah, path xlation is a problem, there's the lisp you're using, the emacs and the platform. 12:22:18 init.lisp neatly sidesteps the issue imho. 12:22:39 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:22:40 well, perhaps, but ccl likes more registers anyway, afaik. 12:22:55 who doesn't? 12:23:09 assembly programmers? :) 12:23:26 huh? they'll kill for more registers 12:23:37 I understand the speed tradeoff - I dig the *idea* of precise GC and relocation, even though in practice it probably amounts to ****all 12:24:14 I bet a lot of people continued to write machine language until the processor, like a bartender eager to close up and go home.. etc. (PG quote) 12:24:41 sorry, not an assembly programmer myself. 12:25:41 Assembly language with garbage collection might not be so bad. 12:30:57 yeah, but I had the distinct (mistaken?) impression that the move to RISC-ier processors made assembly and the like obsolete (many more low level opcodes and no more higher level ones?) 12:31:22 nunb: macro assemblers covered that 12:31:33 and the # of registers was tied to the CISC->RISC shift (not necessarily, but in practice) 12:31:40 though seeing Alpha binaries produced by MACRO-32 is ... freaky? 12:31:50 p_l: ah, my ignorance of asm shows. 12:32:11 -!- pirattrev1 [n=trev@pool-72-72-121-31.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:32:14 nunb: x264 or ffdshow has some skilled assembly hackers 12:32:16 I think that one issue is that C performance started to improve to the point where it was no-longer compelling to use assembly. 12:33:03 okflo [n=user@91-115-93-223.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:34:10 well, I could always learn.. (defun plus () (+ 2 4)) (disassemble 'plus) 12:34:14 :-) 12:34:47 well, you won't learn anything, it'll just return 6 12:35:39 I meant try to learn from the output of disassemble, fool's errand though it is! 12:36:54 on the other hand, assembler is worth learning to understand output of DISASSEMBLE 12:37:29 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 12:37:56 Right - you need assembly-"sense" even if you don't write assembly. 12:52:35 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-27-92.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 12:55:07 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-27-92.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:55:22 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 13:01:37 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:03:21 -!- hrk [n=hrk@acurwa001058.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Riece/5.0.0 Emacs/22.3 (darwin)"] 13:03:29 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:04:41 -!- dalton [n=user7994@187.34.46.192] has quit ["eject"] 13:06:05 -!- spilman is now known as spilman|away 13:06:11 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:06:39 nunb: 2 byte-code instructions: / 0 (CONST 0) ; 6 / 1 (SKIP&RET 1) 13:06:44 It just returns 6. 13:06:44 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 13:06:57 -!- spilman|away is now known as spilman 13:07:48 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 13:11:07 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068157113.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:16 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:22 okflo` [n=user@91-115-93-48.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:23:08 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 13:29:17 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [] 13:29:26 hrk [n=hrk@acurwa001058.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:34:14 -!- okflo [n=user@91-115-93-223.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:41:15 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068157113.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:42:17 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 13:42:21 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:42:27 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-27-92.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:42:50 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-26-136.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:44:42 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:47:11 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 13:48:53 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-208.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:55:09 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 13:56:52 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:59:40 borism [n=boris@195-50-200-199-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 14:04:40 deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has joined #lisp 14:04:53 -!- deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has quit [Client Quit] 14:06:13 -!- okflo` [n=user@91-115-93-48.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:06:19 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 14:06:31 okflo` [n=user@91-115-93-48.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 14:07:16 -!- okflo` is now known as okflo 14:08:53 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-31.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:11:00 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.225.110] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:11:29 deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has joined #lisp 14:12:01 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:12:04 -!- deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has quit [Client Quit] 14:22:35 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 14:27:09 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087BEDF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:37 I remember there was a lisp for creating sounds on osx... can anyone here remember the name? 14:28:00 The-Kenny: Do you mean Common Music? 14:28:11 common music be c++ + scheme, argh! 14:28:16 (: 14:29:12 beach: hmm... I'm not sure. 14:29:34 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-241-91.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:30:04 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:30:49 There's a newer project, actually. 14:30:53 The-Kenny: maybe this? http://recherche.ircam.fr/equipes/repmus/OpenMusic/ 14:31:24 joga: hmmm no, I think not. 14:31:54 tic: Have you seen this nekthuth? 14:32:18 The-Kenny: There was this demo floating around about a guy doing live coding with graphics and music. 14:32:25 The-Kenny: You mean that? 14:32:39 schmx, I have. Tried it long ago, did not like it. Been updated since, might give it a shot. 14:32:45 antoszka: Yes, that sounds familiar. 14:33:10 fluxus? 14:33:10 tic: try slime instead! 14:33:23 tic: Just saw it on lisp. I think I'll give it a go. 14:33:26 oh 14:33:27 The-Kenny: Yeah... Remember seeing that stuff (was OS X-only), but can't remember the name. 14:33:28 on planet lisp. 14:33:45 The-Kenny: Trying searching for live coding on planet lisp. 14:33:54 antoszka: Okay, thank you. 14:35:01 The-Kenny: http://enlivend.livejournal.com/10272.html 14:35:20 That's what I meant, maybe that's what you're looking for as well. 14:36:14 antoszka: That's it! Thank you. 14:37:11 stassats, what's this SLIME you talk of? 14:39:54 That photo looks like Nick Levine. 14:40:04 Is it? 14:40:47 it's him, yes 14:42:58 oh, he's the one writing the book 14:43:06 Yes. 14:44:08 Xach: hah, I'm learning way more about alpha channels and image composition than I'd ever hoped to (-: 14:46:28 deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has joined #lisp 14:46:42 -!- deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has quit [Client Quit] 14:47:47 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:53:06 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:56:50 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:59:51 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:01:01 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has joined #lisp 15:02:26 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 15:09:18 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A2E0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:11:48 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 15:12:37 -!- housel [n=housel@193.34.25.51] has quit ["Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.0.5"] 15:13:53 *cmm* marvels at Weinreb's musical taste, again :) 15:16:30 cmm: A sample of which can we see where :)? 15:16:56 mini-howto [n=philip@ANantes-158-1-52-226.w86-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:18:12 antoszka: on his blog, where else 15:18:41 -!- mini-howto [n=philip@ANantes-158-1-52-226.w86-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:18:47 mhm, thx 15:19:27 the guy had the good fortune to be young and receptive when prog-rock was actually current, see :) 15:20:55 so he gets to not be embarrassed about the stuff he listened to back then. or something 15:23:15 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:24:48 charp_ [n=philip@ANantes-158-1-52-226.w86-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:25:33 hi everybody, has anyone here used limp, the lisp ide for vim ? 15:26:07 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B7BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:30 charp_: tic is the author, ask him 15:27:16 after install, I don't get the CL-USER> prompt, instead I get the bare * SBCL prompt. 15:27:42 i know this might not be very important but the same happened when i manually installed slime 15:28:17 when i install slime from debian package everything goes well, I get the CL-USER> 15:29:00 I'm very new to lisp and probably overlooked something in config. 15:29:05 charp_: you're not launching swank or something? 15:29:18 how exactly did you install it, and how are you launching it? 15:29:35 does limp even use swank? 15:29:41 no idea 15:29:47 I don't think so. 15:30:43 I downloaded the slime dir and copied it to emacs dir and launch it from emacs with M-x slime 15:35:30 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:36:04 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:37:02 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 15:38:20 limp is only vim scripts 15:38:51 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:38:59 charp_: (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) 15:39:13 charp_: the decent REPL has recently become a contrib 15:39:56 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has joined #lisp 15:40:09 charp_: oh sorry, I missed that you were using limp, not SLIME. 15:40:46 charp_: actually, I'm confused, what are you using? 15:42:00 I'm using slime but wanted to try Limp since I quite like vi. I installed it this morning and am still discovering it 15:42:45 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-211-225.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:51 charp_: have you tried nekthuth, it might not be as bad as it sounds. 15:43:28 my ~/.emacs has just (slime-setup) w/out '(slime-fancy) and I get a CL-USER> though 15:47:31 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:19 charp_: you have an old version, then. 15:48:47 -!- nunb [n=user@94.161.30.36] has left #lisp 15:49:01 nunb [n=user@94.161.30.36] has joined #lisp 15:49:32 luis: damning with extremely faint praise? :) 15:50:10 ok, probably since it comes from the debian repo. The one i installed yesterday is the one from the cvs repo 15:50:58 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:07 so I should add '(slime-fancy) to get the usual CL-USER> instead of *, right ? 15:51:30 thanks for help on this 'not very interesting' problem. 15:52:06 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 15:52:29 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-108-113.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:52:38 If s.o. has an answer for limp... 15:55:52 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:09 cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has joined #lisp 15:56:53 -!- Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-18.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:57:05 hrm, it appears you cannot use string based timestamps with the timestamp type in postmodern, though they are in the proper format for postgres :P 15:57:09 crud. 15:59:16 it expects you to give it universal-time thingies? 16:01:13 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:02:17 angerman [n=angerman@host230.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:03:22 -!- charp_ [n=philip@ANantes-158-1-52-226.w86-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["bye bye"] 16:07:09 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:07:28 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:55 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-45-182.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:08:30 Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-18.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:11:33 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2C4E5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:18:37 mgm [n=mgm@m435e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:24 snearch_ [n=olaf@82.113.106.4] has joined #lisp 16:23:04 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:23:06 luis: What do you mean "as bad as it sounds" 16:23:29 ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 16:27:34 danlei [n=user@pD9E2C4E5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:59 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 16:34:18 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:54 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-9-248.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:36:03 parc [n=tim@216.160.42.178] has joined #lisp 16:36:55 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 16:38:42 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 16:39:13 parc pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84230 16:39:45 can anyone see a problem with my macro? I'm trying to extend some html utilities to allow the user to optionally supply a class to tag the element with? 16:39:49 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:40:53 -!- mgm [n=mgm@m435e36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:40:55 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 16:41:33 rsynnott: i suppose so... 16:41:38 rsynnott: awkward 16:41:54 what? 16:41:55 i'd be fine with strings, and there doesn't appear to be a quick conversion function 16:42:02 rsynnott: universal time thing 16:42:06 oh, yes, that 16:44:44 |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E47F2D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:51 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has joined #lisp 16:47:26 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 16:51:25 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-108-113.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:52:47 Fare [n=Fare@crn93-1-82-237-178-210.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:00 -!- ivank [i=ivan@93.97.51.193] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:53:03 ivank [i=ivan@93-97-51-193.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:54:35 mgm [n=mgm@m0b5e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:26 housel [n=housel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 16:55:30 #join #loglan 16:55:45 (sorry) 16:55:59 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:57:14 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:58:53 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 17:00:40 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 17:02:33 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E46B40.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:02:59 rsynnott: the workaround? treat it as a string and let postgres make a virtual later :P 17:03:46 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 17:06:59 -!- snearch_ [n=olaf@82.113.106.4] has quit [Client Quit] 17:07:42 parc: How would you like to call the macro? ie, give an example of code that uses that macro 17:08:57 argible [n=argible@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:43 The lambda-list which you gave for the macro isn't gonna work, but I can help you find a better one if you can define a syntax for calls to the macro. 17:13:11 faure [n=moe@CPE001217e40caa-CM0018c0c09832.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:14:31 -!- niko22 [n=fr33fall@159-213-dsl.kielnet.net] has quit [] 17:15:12 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:19:20 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:20:10 Amit_ [n=chatzill@59.94.244.154] has joined #lisp 17:20:34 -!- Amit_ [n=chatzill@59.94.244.154] has left #lisp 17:21:33 -!- ivank [i=ivan@93-97-51-193.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:21:36 ivank [i=ivan@93-97-51-193.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:23:28 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:25:38 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:27:34 -!- Fare [n=Fare@crn93-1-82-237-178-210.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:28:22 jmbr [n=jmbr@154.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:30:58 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 17:36:43 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:41:37 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:42:08 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 17:47:28 macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:48:06 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:48:46 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-181-108.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:48:50 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 17:52:44 elena_ [n=chatzill@dynamic-adsl-94-36-120-21.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 17:55:05 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 17:58:07 Fare [n=Fare@crn93-1-82-237-178-210.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:24 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-183-112.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:10:13 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:10:49 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-204-6-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 18:12:15 -!- ivank [i=ivan@93-97-51-193.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:12:49 ivank [i=ivan@93-97-51-193.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:13:35 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:42 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-200-199-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:17:01 Jabberwockey [n=jens@82.113.121.145] has joined #lisp 18:17:16 Good evening. 18:19:08 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.5.173] has joined #lisp 18:21:35 francogrex [n=franco@91.180.191.203] has joined #lisp 18:22:37 defsetf is confusing me. Can anyone give a very simple, the simplest example he/she used (btw, is there a "she" at all in here?)? 18:23:26 francogrex: right now I don't know, but I know of 3 regular female visitors here. 18:23:38 -!- esmhammer [n=esm@dialin-159-106.tor.primus.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:24:42 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:51 beach, ok I had an impression female programmers and especially in CL didn't exist at all. 18:25:04 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:14 francogrex: I must have done an exceptional job here in Bordeaux then. 18:25:21 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:25:59 beach, what do you mean? 18:26:11 u're in bordeaux france? 18:26:18 francogrex: So they say. 18:26:34 but what do you mean? 18:26:40 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-190-30.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 18:26:54 francogrex: Two of the women in my department use Lisp because I taught them to. 18:27:23 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 18:27:56 francogrex: I think the problem isn't so much that there aren't many women using Lisp, as it is that there are still nowadays fewer women in various scientific fields. (although this is obviously less so than say 50 years ago) 18:28:19 beach, good on you. My wife thinks lisp is a childish speach defect, nothing else. 18:28:23 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:28:52 francogrex: My wife translated Lisp in Small Pieces into English. But she doesn't come here on IRC. 18:29:04 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-26-136.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 18:29:25 Adlai, not wanting to digress off topic, but in biological & medical sciences, there is at least 60-70% women 18:29:45 beach, you're lucky 18:29:51 I know. 18:30:21 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 18:31:07 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:31:48 francogrex: really? I didn't know that. 18:32:23 Adlai: francogrex is cheating because he is calling medicine a science. 18:32:26 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:32:36 lol 18:32:46 Adamant [n=Adamant@66.213.192.210] has joined #lisp 18:34:07 -!- parc [n=tim@216.160.42.178] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:36:21 But yeah, Biology is definitely a science and there are pleny of women there. 18:36:36 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:19 For the record, I am in Computer "Science", and I don't think that's a science either. 18:39:21 ditto chemistry 18:39:47 Some people think "Science" = "Good" and "Not Science" = "Bad" which is obviously not true. 18:40:18 rsynnott: being a science or having lots of women? 18:40:45 lots of women 18:40:46 rsynnott: there are quite a few women in chemistry in France, but nowhere near the numbers in biology. 18:40:51 rsynnott: yeah. 18:43:10 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 18:43:12 Adamant [n=Adamant@66.213.192.210] has joined #lisp 18:43:35 beach: well, there's definitely some condescending regarding "liberal arts" (or at least certain branches - it's a region-dependant thing) 18:43:58 there's also a lot of women in Psychology 18:44:12 -!- Fare [n=Fare@crn93-1-82-237-178-210.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:44:17 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 18:44:28 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:32 p_l: true. And psychology is more scientific than most of the so called "hard" sciences. 18:45:08 *Adlai* has a liberal definition of "science" 18:45:12 They have to pay a lot more attention to their methods so as not to influence the experiment just by conducting it. 18:45:38 funnily enough, most of the best programmers I know are women 18:45:43 beach: Yeah, I know. As Artificial Intelligence student, I've got basically full psychology curriculum :D 18:45:48 rsynnott: I am not surprised. 18:45:56 I think that any field where you use the scientific method -- and that includes psychology, compsci, some history, and many others -- can be called a science. 18:46:02 I think it's more that there is social pressure for women not to do certain things 18:46:09 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:46:13 Adlai: What is scientific about CS? 18:46:34 beach: CS is about understanding the interactions of information. 18:46:37 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:46:41 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 18:46:53 Zhivago: That is now the usual definition of "science". 18:47:01 nor of "scientific method" 18:47:06 beach: You can argue that it is essentially equivalent to physics. 18:47:15 No I can't. 18:47:19 I can. 18:47:47 I am sure you can, but I won't believe you. 18:47:48 rsynnott, not only that. It would be wimpy to hypocritical to go with the fashion of today and turn twist all truth into politically correct statements which are a la mode these days. 18:47:49 (for that matter, there's a social pressure for men not to do certain things, either) 18:47:53 very silly, really 18:48:16 Beach: Must be terrible to be a slave to your preconceptions. 18:48:17 francogrex: there's no serious evidence of any significant difference in ability 18:48:35 Women in general do not fancy math or stats or coputer related stuff 18:48:44 rsynnott: I often take great pride in not listening to such pressure. 18:48:47 your evidence is the numbers 18:48:54 francogrex: ah, but why don't they? 18:48:57 beach: I'd say it's a science because of the design aspects. 18:49:03 innate genetic aversion, or social pressure? :) 18:49:20 franco: The numbers from single-sex education centres are interesting when you compare them with mixed gender places. 18:49:28 Zhivago: Nah, you are misunderstanding. It is about taking a deliberately narrow definition of "science" so as to challange people about what they think science is. 18:49:30 "design" in the architectural sense, not the "interior design" sense 18:49:41 why don't men wera mini-skirts? 18:49:54 Adamant [n=Adamant@66.213.192.210] has joined #lisp 18:49:55 beach: Did you not just say that no-matter what I said about it, you would not believe me? 18:49:55 until rather recently, very few women became doctors, either; this was partly due to direct societal opposition, and partially due to social pressure not to 18:49:56 or bras 18:50:13 (of course, nowadays more women than men are becoming doctors) 18:50:18 Zhivago: Not quite no. 18:50:34 beach: Looked like it to me. 18:50:34 yes, medicine is for women 18:51:18 isn't just a gender thing, either. I'm a gay male; a lot of people are surprised that I'm a programmer because it is not something stereotypically expected of gay males 18:51:22 bio science as well. You see when the so-called social pressures are removed we see the truth: women are not math-engeneering oriented (in general, of course there are always exceptions) 18:51:34 Zhivago: Think of it as my guessing that I would more likely having a different definition of science than what you would. It is not a problem for me. I just like the debate that follows when I suggest that. But this might not be the right place for such a debate. 18:51:43 francogrex: the social pressures haven't been removed, though 18:51:53 they've eased, but they certainly haven't been removed 18:52:26 eased ok but that's it then how do you explzain the rush of women to medicine but not to math/CS? 18:52:32 (there's some evidence that they are actually increasing again) 18:52:55 rsynnott, no I see the exact opposite 18:53:14 women theese days are holding men by the balls 18:53:21 when my mum was in school (40 years ago, mind) she was discouraged strongly from doing physics because it was not something that girls did) 18:53:38 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:53:56 yeah, but in western world to women are not dscouraged 18:54:02 today 18:54:07 francogrex: It is my experience from talking to female high-school graduates that they perfer "working with people" than with machines. I try to convince them that in medicine these days, you work with more machines than you do in CS, and the people you work with are sick and poor, whereas in CS you get to work with rich and healthy people who pay your trips and nice visits to restaurants. 18:55:15 beach: interesting point :) 18:55:31 -!- ivank [i=ivan@93-97-51-193.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:55:34 ivank [i=ivan@93-97-51-193.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:55:48 beach, totally right, women are people oriented, nothing to do with social pressures anything, thta's how the biology/psuchology is 18:56:14 [citation needed] 18:56:23 Muzzleflash [n=Muzzlefl@d40a27ee.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:56:23 francogrex: biology/psycholog} 18:56:26 err? 18:56:29 -!- Muzzleflash [n=Muzzlefl@d40a27ee.rev.stofanet.dk] has left #lisp 18:56:33 francogrex: Right. So know we have to make the female high-school graduates realize that CS is about working with people. 18:56:37 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-188-098-210-138.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:41 *Elench* needs to start carrying a [citation needed] sign for certain work conversations 18:56:42 do you mean genetically or stereotypically? 18:56:43 beach, though the last statement about rich versus poor people is not an argument but a joke 18:56:49 francogrex: even if that's true _on average_, there's a huge amount of variation within large groups such as "all female homo sapiens" and "all male homo sapiens" 18:56:56 guaqua: Very likely genetically. 18:57:10 beach: now there's a claim i'd like to see someone proove 18:57:31 guaqua: start by reading the books by Steven Pinker. 18:57:33 guaqua, read research articles u'll have yur prooves 18:57:54 it's already been done, you're not reading anough 18:58:01 genetics and cultural makeup are two separate things. i'm okay if you talk about the products of a culture 18:58:08 alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:34 guaqua: Very well written, and also very impressive in terms of showing people like me how it was unacceptable in the 20th century in the US to think that *anything* was biological. Now it is. 18:58:35 but when you blindly refer to "genetics" you are going to have to have something more than "common knowledge" 18:58:40 guys we are digressiong and going off topic 18:58:54 francogrex: indeed. 18:59:02 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 18:59:04 alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:10 Well, there is a fairly clear genetic issue here. Women tend to have a more centrally distributed degree of intelligence. 18:59:13 good for a while but might get on the nerves of others here 18:59:26 yeah, stick to lisp 18:59:30 Men are experimental, disposable models. 18:59:36 Zhivago: please 18:59:40 don't go there 18:59:46 guagua: You don't like science? 19:00:15 Zhivago: again... there's a lot of variation in the _huge_ groups that you're talking about. I know plenty of people who defy these stereotypes. 19:00:28 What this means is that when you select for extremes of intelligence, you'll find that women are at a disadvantage -- both in terms of retards and geniuses. 19:00:33 Zhivago: you base your 'science' on one branch of western psychology 19:00:40 alec_ [n=alec@pool-71-174-175-182.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:41 *francogrex* will be away for a while to finish a program for a client 19:00:49 Adlai: I think when Zhivago says "women do this" and "men do this", he is talking statistics. 19:01:01 No. I'm talking about distributions. 19:01:05 i heard somewhere that mutation in males are more frequent 19:01:17 What it comes down to is that women are more valuable than men. 19:01:19 Zhivago: Yes, that is what I meant. 19:01:26 So they are produced along more conservative lines. 19:01:29 which doesn't really have anything to do with genetics per se. it *might* have to do with genetics but we cannot really know 19:01:31 Men get more freaks. 19:01:52 When your selection criteria favours certain types of freaks, then women are at a disadvantage. 19:02:07 Men are cheap :) 19:03:12 Zhivago: Sounds very much like my own experience. Whenever I need people to work with me to run a teaching program or some such, I recruit women because they are more likely to do the job without being supervised than men. 19:03:13 -!- alec_ is now known as alec 19:04:15 Zhivago: This is all statistical of course, because I cannot always predict in advance whether I get a flaky woman or a totally reliable man. 19:04:42 Sure and much like racial differences, it isn't even an issue until you're selecting at the extremes., 19:04:51 (on-topic "Is it possible to make both clbuild and asdf-install put symlinks in one registry dir?") 19:04:56 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-117-119.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:05:03 Adlai: yes 19:05:06 Zhivago: Yep. 19:05:25 stassats: how? (rtfm is an acceptable answer... ) 19:05:32 These days, I suspect that tenure is selecting at those extremes. 19:06:44 Zhivago: I definitely see more flaky guys in my CS departement than statistics would normally call for. 19:07:05 Adlai: 1. forget about asdf-install. 2. change asdf-install:*locations* 19:07:08 There is an interesting statistic. Women on average do about the same as men in CS undergrad. Far fewer women procede to postgrad, but those that do d o as well as the men. Even fewer seek high academic positions, but those that do do just as well as the men 19:07:09 Zhivago: which reinforces my idea to avoid working with them when I need things to get done. 19:07:34 beach: Reasonable. A women who can compete at those levels should be more all-round competent. 19:07:48 the 'science' of inherent mental differences between men and women is dubious 19:08:10 This isn't about inherent mental differences, really. 19:08:19 Zhivago: isn't it, anymore? 19:08:24 This is about how well the genders adhere to spec. 19:08:27 especially given that the same differences can often be explained based on the different ways that male and female children are raised, even today 19:08:52 Men have broader range of deviation -- you can see it in a whole bunch of areas. 19:08:54 stassats: I've been migrating... every time that I clbuild a new system, I check and delete it from my asdf-install dir. 19:09:02 Just take the distribution of retardation if you like. 19:09:04 (interestingly, over the last ten years in the US there has been a sharp changes towards the use of gender-specific toys for children again 19:09:23 (after an increase in gender neutral toys for a couple of decades 19:09:38 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:54 In anycase, it's bad to have a unisex society: biologically we need two different sexes to reproduce. 19:10:22 unisex is a meme implanted by the little grays to destroy own species. 19:10:30 s/own/our/ 19:10:32 pjb: Except that at this point we don't really need to reproduce that much, at least if we want to save the planet. 19:10:51 we need two genders to reproduce, obviously, but we hardly need to treat them differently 19:11:03 beach: that's false. There are enough resources. The planet is almost a desert humanwise. 19:11:05 and for that matter there's altogether too much reproduction going on :) 19:11:24 You certainly should. Women are more valuable. 19:12:03 That is replacing a women is about 5 to 10 times as expensive as replacing a man. 19:12:12 valuable how? 19:12:18 pjb: When I see that demand for ground-up rhino horns is threatening an entire species, I am convinced there are too many of us. 19:12:56 There is no particular reason to seek a population increase 19:13:02 rsynnott: Imagine that half of all women are killed. How long does it take to replace them? 19:13:09 and in any case popuklation is starting to stabilise or fall in the developed world 19:13:23 rsynnott: Now imagine that half of all men are killed. How long does it take to replace them? 19:13:23 Well, we need to adjust which resources we consume 19:13:25 Zhivago: oh, it would take longer 19:13:33 rsynnott: Other than that economists have made us believe in a chain-letter economy for some decades now. 19:13:33 but that is hardly a likely scenario 19:13:37 And that's why historically women have been far more valuable than men. 19:13:49 Which is why they have often been chattel. 19:13:55 beach: there's too many idiots, all right. 19:14:15 But imagine what we could do if there was more smart people! 19:14:23 pjb: Right, the theories about enough ressources assume we are all reasonable. Dream on! 19:14:34 another reason is that women are necessary for continuation of the species, and it's much easier to create a society with only females than to use only male material for reproduction... 19:14:44 of course, definition of 'smart' varies :) 19:14:58 p_l: neither are practical or desirable , though 19:15:09 Yeah, but on the other hand, since men are cheap to replace, they have less evolutionary pressure to be built properly. 19:15:12 rsynnott: roaches are smarter than humans. We should give up the planet to them. 19:15:34 rsynnott: still, it's much easier to have a child born out of two females, than out of two males :D 19:15:36 So without your experimental models, you'll miss out on a lot of useful (and useless) freaks. 19:16:13 p_l: yes, much; the former has, I believe, been experimentally managed to an extent; the latter is basically impossible 19:17:01 Anyway, so to get back on topic (somewhat), there are at least two women out there using Lisp because of me (my wife is not one of them, because she knew Lisp when we met). If each man in this channel did as well, we would have a very different picture now. 19:17:42 -!- asksol [n=ask@91.208.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:18:04 *Adlai* still has to work on successfully converting _any_ of his friends to Lisp. 19:18:34 *stassats* only makes people aware that there is Lisp 19:18:35 Adlai: You must be using the wrong method. 19:19:18 well, I only have 2 friends who are at all computer-literate, one of them is a fan of Java and XML, and the other one likes Python... 19:19:25 beach: probably 19:19:44 *rsynnott* was converted to lisp by a person of the female persiousion, ironically 19:20:05 Adlai: I don't know what method you are using, but I know one that doesn't work, namely to tell them that what they know is not very good and there is better. Then they are sure to become protective of their current knowledge. 19:20:09 Adlai: have you tried torturing them? 19:20:30 haha. 19:21:08 If Java doesn't work as torture... 19:21:27 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@KD124213182069.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:21:39 Adlai: For instance, I never refer to anything they already know, because I am likely to say incorrect things about it. I just show them things that Lisp can do and that I am pretty sure their current favorite environment cannot, such as rational arithmetic, bignums, method combinations, programming the reader, etc. 19:21:41 Elench: humans can adapt 19:21:50 Well, with my python-loving friend, I helped him install CCL, Emacs, and Slime, and gave him the link to PCL. I think he was interested but I don't know if he's read much further than the first 2 chapters yet. 19:22:00 Well, that's true stassats 19:22:10 Elench: Stassats is right. It is surprising what people will adapt to. 19:22:26 To be honest, i used to think c++ was quite nice 19:22:31 _stern_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46658.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:36 casually writing in Java is a torture indeed 19:24:23 I had to do a small amount of java work late ly 19:24:42 I was actually impressed by the improvements (last time I used it it had no templates) but it was a bit painful still 19:25:26 templates in Java? 19:25:31 rsynnott: you're issuing DEL characters instead of editing your lines... 19:25:34 aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host68-103-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:25:34 I recall generics, but no templates 19:25:53 sorry, yes, generics 19:27:15 I have a python-loving friend that I'm intent on converting to more advanced languages (Lisp and Haskell, maybe also Erlang and some more) 19:28:14 python is nice. but sometimes you just would need macros to back you from that deep end where the language doesn't support you anymore 19:28:35 "I care about Lisp's popularity the same way I care about Mahler's" --Tim Bradshaw 19:28:40 -!- ivank [i=ivan@93-97-51-193.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:28:44 ivank [i=ivan@93-97-51-193.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:28:50 couldn't have said it better, really (or, well, shorter) 19:28:55 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E47F2D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:29:06 benny` [n=benny@i577A0BA5.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:31:13 benny`` [n=benny@i577A1FDE.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:31:24 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A0BA5.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:34:56 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:36:29 Python is nicer than Java but Guido's attitude and priorities annoy me 19:37:16 "There is only one way to do it" !!! 19:37:24 that isn't so bad 19:37:33 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0BA5.versanet.de] has quit [No route to host] 19:38:08 -!- _stern_ is now known as seelenquell 19:38:10 they are actually trying to develop it into a coherent language with a stable implementation and all 19:38:16 Adlai: I think both Perl and Python are too extreme in that regard. 19:38:27 one way or too many ways 19:38:33 I like Ruby's way. 19:39:08 i.e. matz's way and no spec? 19:39:09 "there is only slow way to do it"? 19:39:22 CATS. CATS ARE NICE 19:39:29 -!- ivank [i=ivan@93-97-51-193.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:39:31 minion, chant 19:39:31 MORE ADVANCED 19:39:37 Damn right. 19:39:41 har 19:39:43 ivank [i=ivan@93-97-51-193.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:40:02 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit ["leaving"] 19:40:56 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 19:41:05 guaqua: Matz isn't nearly as much of a nazi as Guido, though, when it comes to new features and new things. I do agree the "no spec" part is a problem. 19:41:58 lujz` [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-20-92.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:11 does python have a spec? 19:42:22 stassats: moreso than Ruby 19:42:32 every new feature comes in as a PEP, python enhancement proposal 19:42:33 not really when you compare to ISO-standardized languages 19:42:45 yeah, not so much a full specification 19:43:06 new features are sometimes introduced into ruby without a line in the release changelog... 19:43:16 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@154.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:43:19 -!- benny`` is now known as benny 19:43:27 guaqua: life is like a box of chocolates 19:43:40 everyone is reading sources 19:43:44 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:58 programming language are classified thus: unexpressive and simple ones with spec, dynamically expressive ones with spec, statically expressive ones with spec, and shit that should stop pulluting the noosphere 19:44:36 guaqua: it could be worse. Linux has adopted the habit of sneaking in security fixes without labeling them as such. 19:44:36 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:44:44 -!- elena_ [n=chatzill@dynamic-adsl-94-36-120-21.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [No route to host] 19:44:46 now please stop discussing the relative merits of different brands of shit :) 19:44:54 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 19:44:58 now if you want SERIOUS lack of design, ttake a look at PHP :) 19:45:14 no, please no php 19:45:17 yes. 19:45:22 I think we can all agree there 19:46:15 the best thing about PHP is it's annotated reference with dialog about the functions or features. the only problem is that most of the answers to questions and code included are flawed in some way. 19:46:52 or just outright wrong and non-functional 19:47:03 the spirit is right, though 19:47:08 I agree 19:47:08 -!- kidd [n=kidd@209.Red-88-11-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:47:18 I've often wished for a similar, moderated version of the CLHS 19:47:19 the spirit is right. 19:47:47 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-117-119.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:47:52 there's a lot of wisdom about CL that isn't readily available 19:48:10 you can have all the spirit. if you don't have the culture of doing things right (and also having bright people doing it) 19:48:53 like annotated clim spec? 19:49:18 Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:49:37 like stackoverflow for every entry in the clhs index 19:49:57 clim present 19:49:57 Multiple entries found. Try looking up one of: "present,Presentation Method", "present,Function", "present,Concept" 19:49:59 guaqua: that is true too. 19:50:10 clim present,Method 19:50:10 Invalid index 0: must be between 0 and -1. 19:50:19 ugh 19:50:24 clim present,Function 19:50:24 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/23-4.html#_1193 19:50:43 like this 19:51:14 something like this 19:51:36 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:51:54 woah, that's neat! 19:51:59 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-127.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:52:09 that's a bit too subtle, though 19:52:18 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:52:22 the color should be darker for a night-owl like me 19:52:42 put on sunglasses 19:53:20 i speaking about the contrast between that pink (?) and white 19:53:31 or is that green? (also color blind) 19:53:52 jmbr [n=jmbr@154.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:54:08 pinkish 19:54:32 -!- lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-22-9.dynamic.amis.net] has quit [No route to host] 19:54:50 that spec is too nice. i might just have to learn clim stuff for that 19:55:11 With what you know of the GPLed goodies, if I were to create a single zipfile, that contained a lisp implementation (CCL), Emacs, slime, specifically rigged up for windows, ready-to-go? 19:55:18 Would it pi** anyone off? 19:56:24 what's that? Pi squared? 19:56:25 Sounds like Lisp-in-a-box. Is peter still working on it? 19:56:40 This is windows-only, literally decompress and drop. 19:57:15 I see a lot of these instructions and I'm flat out following them knowing lisp (but not much unix). It has to be absolutely braindead and unixy-s**t free. 19:57:39 You're doing that squared-thing again! 19:57:40 i heard there is some work on win32 cocoa analogue in CCL 19:57:41 -!- kmels is now known as kmels-awAy 19:58:35 elena [n=chatzill@dynamic-adsl-94-36-120-21.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 19:58:42 Modius: your self-censorship doesn't make it less obscene 19:58:54 Modius: Just make sure that people can easily update slime. 19:59:26 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 19:59:44 Clearly, we need M-x slime-update. Getting the latest cvs snapshot may be good enough. 19:59:54 tcr: My intent is to give a "here, this will get you started", and then you delta from that. I've been using lispworks for years so I'm not scared of parens; but you mess up one thing in the chain setting up emacs/slime and you're completely hosed and never get to see it run. 20:00:26 *stassats* had M-x slime-reload, but it stopped working 20:00:30 Kind of a "here is something running - and these are where the configs are - now deviate from there" 20:01:03 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:02:06 how do I control where CLbuild puts sources? 20:02:14 s/sources/symlinks 20:02:18 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087BEDF.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 20:02:42 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:02:46 Modius: People will get it even after months you abandoned it 20:03:24 tcr: And anyone using it will be one more person who gets to run *some* version of lisp/slime as opposed to bailing out in disgust. 20:03:48 cocoa analogue---cocotron, don't know how serious it is 20:04:06 I don't want to distract you, your endeavor does have credit. You're just not the first one. People occassionally come here asking for help with Lisp In A Box which is two years old or something 20:05:21 though slime tries to be backward-compatible, newer versions may lack testing for old implementations 20:05:22 tcr: I'm not going to touch other libraries with a 10 foot pole. I just want people to be able to open Swank. Also, my effort may turn out to be twofold - I'm working on a doc that describes (to a windows user) a means to install the latest from their sources. The "all in one zip" will be secondary. The "zip" will be standalone, so it should work even if outdated, let the user do "something" 20:05:43 stassats: Uh no it does not really try to be backwards-compatible 20:05:57 stassats: If I deliver a CCL build, an Emacs and a Slime in one zip they WILL match up. 20:06:34 tcr: what about read-time conditionalization of some newer features? 20:06:38 I'm not sure how much linux-side developers realize how much gobbledygook and gibberish this stuff is to a disciple of Billy G. 20:07:12 I think they do. 20:07:32 stassats: That backwards-compatibility in the backends, sure. But I dare you not to follow slime for 6months, then update. 20:07:39 Lisp helps those who help themselves. :) 20:10:05 antifuchs: how is it going? 20:10:47 Xach: I've got the alpha/color handling figured out now (transparency's horribly-ugliness and obscurity in clim means that I don't have to support it (-:) 20:11:20 but I haven't yet figured out why recording doesn't correctly set the medium foreground when replaying the records. oh well (: 20:12:18 antifuchs: what are you hacking on? 20:12:31 I'm making a png backend for classic clim (: 20:12:38 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-236.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:12:41 oh. yuck. 20:12:48 classic clim? 20:13:08 well, it's going to be anti-aliased and hopefully non-ugly 20:13:20 however, I haven't gotten very far yet 20:15:44 matley [n=matley@91.80.200.147] has joined #lisp 20:17:55 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:20:30 classic clim is like classic coke 20:20:52 they stopped making it in the 80s? 20:21:24 *Xach* stares at hefner 20:21:27 it's best if it's monochromatic 20:21:45 dto: are you going to be there tomorrow night? 20:21:47 that motif-on-1bpp-xterminal look is timeless. 20:21:51 but HAH. this works now. 20:23:57 -!- kmels-awAy is now known as kmels 20:25:53 Xach: classic coke would be with cocaine, right? 20:26:26 No, classic coke is the only actual normal coke you can buy in America in 2009. 20:26:28 <_3b> wasn't 'classic coke' the version with corn syrup? 20:27:05 <_3b> Xach: you can get real coca cola in non-US parts of america 20:27:35 <_3b> (or imported from mexico in parts of US) 20:27:36 that's "Coca-Cola Classic" (or now "Coca-Cola") 20:28:00 you can define "classic coke" to mean anything you like. 20:28:24 beer! 20:28:52 almost anything. 20:29:14 ok, http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/31/business/media/31coke.html says it's no longer classic coke. 20:29:15 -!- ivank [i=ivan@93-97-51-193.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:29:34 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:29:36 ivank [i=ivan@93-97-51-193.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:29:59 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:30:22 *_3b* just wants RC draft back :/ 20:34:48 Do we have a screenie of classic clim? 20:35:07 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 20:35:11 _3b: still available in new zealand :) 20:35:24 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 20:35:38 <_3b> really? thought they'd even stopped there... don't think i can afford to have it shipped anyway though :p 20:36:17 <_3b> bad enough sending dr.pepper halfway across the state to get real sugar :) 20:39:28 also, apparently kosher for passover coke in the US has sugar instead of corn syrup 20:40:05 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-190-30.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:40:10 _3b: You mean the non-US parts of the US haha 20:40:17 or just about anywhere outside the US it has sugar, of course 20:40:45 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-236.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:42:13 the only place I ever see corn syrup is in organic soft drinks; organic sugar is too expensive so they usually just use organic corn syrup 20:42:45 what does "organic" mean in that context? 20:42:59 -!- aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host68-103-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left #lisp 20:43:11 would this be a good time to mention that I've just opened a bottle of Lagavulin and it's simply wonderful? 20:43:49 serichsen: 'organic' food as in produced without artificial pesticides, herbicides etc to some rules I don't know the detail of 20:44:33 (strange, misleading term which implies that the other food is made out of tin or something :) ) 20:45:45 *hefner* searched fruitlessly for the ugliest classic clim screenshot he could find 20:46:08 if you try to apply the "distrust manipulative names" rule consistently, you'll starve, will be jobless and will have no friends 20:46:16 they all are beautiful? 20:47:20 you know that most photos get seriously better when stripped of colors, right? 20:47:29 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-117-119.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:48:22 I can only assume the best of the lot has been purged from the internet so as to not traumatize future generations 20:48:50 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:49:59 hefner: what was particularly unpleasant about it? 20:50:56 (sadly, kenny tilton seems to have removed his screenshot of an inspector stuck on the front of a gradient-coloured opengl cube from the internet) 20:50:58 the typical classic clim application I've seen combines the aesthetic sense of Kenny Tilton with the graphics technology of the early 80s. 20:51:30 :) 20:51:56 kidd [n=kidd@183.Red-88-9-113.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:11 sounds like some sort of postmodern vintage, must be cool 20:52:23 oddly enough, they left enough stuff /on/ the internet to traumatize past generations (: 20:53:03 my alltime favourite horrible UI is still the erlang mnesia table viewer on macos 20:53:14 (it's impressively broken; clim has a lot of catching up to do) 20:53:21 hefner: is clim classic a completely separate and hefner-defined thing from classic clim? 20:53:37 the menu bar made out of push buttons is a particularly nice touch 20:53:53 rsynnott: do you know about the Blender UI? 20:54:04 to reach the user preferences, you resize the menu bar 20:54:06 haven't seen it 20:54:21 though graphics applications tend to have whole new levels of crazy UIs 20:54:28 you hover the mouse over the little separator between main window and menu bar, then pull down 20:54:36 and there are the preferences. the rest is similarly strange 20:54:37 there was a popular 3d modelling app with a particularly crazy one 20:54:48 <_3b> rsynnott: have you seen the verse stuff? 20:54:50 like focus-follows-mouse across the various panes 20:54:58 yes, blender (: 20:55:10 nope, 3d max I think 20:55:22 try viewing the internets for a day on a 1024x600 display, that'll innoculate you 20:55:24 I doubt it's as crazy as blender (: 20:55:29 also, flash applications which implement broken scroll bars. Grr 20:55:39 I doubt anything is as crazy as this program 20:56:32 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:56:53 leaving a common widget set out of flash was the worst thing macromedia could possibly have done; led to all sorts of horrors 20:57:22 good thing x didn't make that mistake! 20:57:29 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:57:32 hahaha 20:57:41 you all use athena, right? 20:57:45 X at least made it easy for other people to provide common widget sets :) 20:57:58 lots of them (: 20:58:21 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 20:58:40 Xach: for emacs 20:58:41 <_3b> ah, loq airou seems to be the specific name of the app i was thinking of 20:58:58 <_3b> http://www.quelsolaar.com/loq_airou/screen_shots.html 20:59:06 <_3b> more apps need lens flares as UI elements :) 20:59:27 haha 20:59:38 ok, that is weird (: 21:00:03 <_3b> (the realtime networked multiuser 3d editor bit looked pretty cool though) 21:00:13 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:39 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-198.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:01:08 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 21:03:19 Xach: it is distressing that you've bought so willingly into the Coca-Cola newspeak 21:05:21 _3b: that's a crazy app 21:09:50 philipp [n=philipp@65-45.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 21:10:51 -!- dihymo [n=h@208.79.90.74] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:13:31 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 21:13:53 why are the *.texinfo files not in the alexandria repository? 21:14:30 -!- mgm [n=mgm@m0b5e36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:15:14 -!- macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["NIL"] 21:15:51 there is alexandria.texinfo 21:16:06 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 21:16:22 which just includes a lot of texinfo files 21:16:32 which are generated? 21:16:44 okflo` [n=user@91-115-84-239.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 21:17:18 ah ok, sry ;-) 21:18:50 -!- hrk [n=hrk@acurwa001058.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Riece/5.0.0 Emacs/22.3 (darwin)"] 21:23:12 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2FE3A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:21 cmm: You really need to have a couple of default-installed toolbars installed to appreciate 600 line display. 21:25:50 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["argh"] 21:26:11 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:28:25 s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-168-234-251.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:01 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:29:22 600 lines? 21:30:02 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:30:16 *stassats* can squeeze only 40 lines 21:30:49 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:53 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 21:31:58 -!- okflo [n=user@91-115-93-48.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:32:47 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 21:33:16 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-211-225.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:34:35 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 21:35:01 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 21:38:18 -!- francogrex [n=franco@91.180.191.203] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:40:16 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2C4E5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 21:40:48 600 lines = netbook resolution 21:41:09 -!- Adlai is now known as Adlai-AWAY 21:41:44 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-160-165-59.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:43:12 I've got it - I've got a set of instructions, half of which is how to drag-drop files out of zipfiles or install WinRar to un-tar-gz Slime, that even an enterprise MS guy (and I'd know) could follow and get slime/CCL running 21:45:47 there should really be a common website for emacs+slime+ccl/sbcl installations for new users 21:46:13 clisp might work better on windows, either way 21:46:36 Reason I chose CCL is that there's more - bait - there for a windows user. "This implementation has deployability (save-image) and threads - there might be a pot of gold for you at the end of this rainbow" 21:48:21 Yea, i can imagine that. I had sbcl working great on windows. What that means is that it only crashed when it came across compiling errors and infinite or seemingly so loops. 21:49:24 clisp worked alot smoother, but i hate the parameter lists in clisp >.< 21:49:35 The criteria I listed nixes SBCL (for now) over threads, and ABCL (which runs quite nicely otherwise) over not being able to save-image (obliterating certain library idioms) 21:50:05 what do you do with save-image? 21:50:19 cross your fingers, probably. 21:50:25 True. A novice user, who just wants to try out the examples from the various books/website will do fine without, though. 21:51:04 Yeah; but "will I invest in learning this particular implementation" is a different equation if it is a plausible software deployment platform. 21:51:20 Valid point! 21:51:25 You can make up cases on ABCL where it will crush lispworks due to its concurrent/parallell garbage collector. 21:51:59 I'm coming from the mindset (and makingthe doc for the mindset) of someone coming from devstudio. You might play around on the MS toy; but you know you can also make the real software with it. "This is just a toy" is very offputting. 21:55:05 I couldn't get Swank/Win64/Xemacs working for the life of me, just GNU Emacs. XEmacs interaction would hang right at the end (same swank version and same settings) 21:55:54 nunb saved my bacon by showing me how to get it working remote - I was about to give up, and wasn't even sure what Swank looked like up intil then. 21:56:16 What's wrong with using gnu emacs? personal preference? 21:58:43 Well, given that I can only M-x slime from gnu emacs I have no choice :) But I'd be using Xemacs otherwise as it seems to be a superset. 22:00:29 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@82.113.121.145] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:04:00 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-64-198.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 22:04:50 I just thought that if some sort of www.get-lisp.[com|org|net] existed, people might learn to go *there*. 22:07:51 hefner, the ugliness of classic clim screenshots has no lower bound? 22:08:43 deepfire: perhaps I exaggerate. just a little. 22:08:55 -!- Adlai-AWAY is now known as Adlai 22:09:10 -!- okflo` [n=user@91-115-84-239.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:10:20 Anyway, did anyone manage to get cffi-clutter working? 22:11:43 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590e8f4e.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:13:23 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [] 22:16:16 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 22:16:19 -!- kami-``` [n=user@193.218.18.18] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:23:30 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:34:38 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:31 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:39:09 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:39:11 dalton [n=user7994@187.34.46.192] has joined #lisp 22:40:32 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-64-198.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:41:03 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:41:42 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["http://www.widelands.org/ -- Latest version: build-12"] 22:43:14 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:35 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:33 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:47:38 CCL on windows - for windows users: Note, it's just a draft: http://kirov.dyndns.org/Test/CCL_Windows_Installation.html 22:47:58 -!- dalton is now known as msx_rio 22:48:19 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-117-119.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:49:02 -!- msx_rio is now known as raul_seixas 22:49:23 -!- raul_seixas is now known as dalton 22:51:13 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-188-098-210-138.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:52:27 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:52:32 Modius, a very thorough guide indeed! 22:54:38 Phaze: Given all the failure points in getting it working, and subtle variance from the individual docs - and that its audience would have to blow a half a day researching how to unwind a .tgz file - it had to be. 22:57:32 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:57:34 One tip: windows seems to have trouble with files starting with a dot. Atleast I've had some trouble with it previously. You might want to suggest that .emacs is also allowed to be _emacs, should they have trouble with the dot. 22:57:58 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:22 Yeah, that .emacs file business might need to be factored out into its own chapter - it is a major failure point 23:00:33 Emacs is generally a major failure point when it comes to introducing lisp. Users unfamiliar with emacs already have to learn two alien environments at the same time. 23:00:52 Yeah. Worst part though is you have an alien installation - near impossible to set the damn thing up 23:01:17 CCL comes with an IDE, doesn't it? 23:02:52 Phaze: There are easy actions to take to fix those problems. For instance, don't try to introduce Lisp at all. That makes life easy for everyone. 23:03:27 Ralith: Yeah, but currently only on OS X. 23:05:50 O.o 23:05:56 that's an odd platform to only support 23:06:33 <_3b> Ralith: not for mac software 23:06:53 ccl is crossplatform :P 23:07:02 <_3b> yeah, but only (relatively) recently 23:07:07 Ralith: CCL was Mac-only for many years. 23:07:52 -!- erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 23:07:55 It forked from MCL. 23:08:00 weird. 23:08:19 Ralith: What is weird about that? 23:08:26 nothing at all! 23:08:27 :D 23:10:55 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:12:54 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 23:16:20 is there a way to truncate my output in slime? 23:16:41 I still really want to condense this win32/lisp cra* into a pair of zipfiles 23:17:05 you should be able to with lots of relative paths 23:17:13 for running sykobot, I usually leave a trace on of all important functions, in case of an error; however, this is massively REPL-clogging, and accumulates 10k lines of output in only a few minutes. Any way to truncate the SLIME-REPL to, say, 5k lines? 23:17:36 Phaze: I'd leave them absolute for this though - it's fiddly enough, and it would let me provide absolute paths in the .emacs type files. 23:17:52 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:58 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 23:18:26 Samy [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:15 Adlai: not yet 23:21:57 uch, I've written enough ELisp for the rest of the summer. Oh well. 23:22:09 I guess I'll have to manually clear the repl then... 23:22:20 [sbahra] [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:23 tcr said he had something for truncating output 23:22:57 offline atm... 23:23:23 minion: help memo? 23:23:23 To send a memo, say something like ``minion: memo for nick: the memo''. I'll remember the memo for any nick which is the same as the given nick, +/- differences in punctuation, and any nick which is an alias for it, and give it to them when they next speak. 23:23:58 stassats: thx, didn't think of that. 23:23:58 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-79-16.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:24:38 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@154.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:24:47 minion: memo for tcr: heard that you have a SLIME hack for truncating repl output... is this so? could I have a copy please? thanks -Adlai 23:24:47 Remembered. I'll tell tcr when he/she/it next speaks. 23:25:42 Adlai, why don't you capture *trace-output*? 23:26:23 Phaze: hm? what do you mean? 23:27:20 Adlai, you said you had 10k lines filling the repl from trace? Why not redirect the output to a log or similar. 23:27:32 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has left #lisp 23:27:38 hmmm 23:28:10 so you mean opening a file and setting *trace-output* to that stream? 23:28:27 Adlai, some thing like that, yes. 23:28:32 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 23:28:34 I'll have to remember to close the file whenever I restart/quit slime. is there any way of automating that? 23:28:50 .emacs scripting 23:29:27 oh no no no. I wrote 25 lines of elisp two days ago, it was awful. 23:29:42 I haven't recovered yet... 23:29:50 Adlai: (require 'cl) 23:30:05 stassats, was just about to say that! 23:30:22 Adlai, put it at the top of your .emacs 23:30:52 Phaze, stassats how do I then intersperse cl code? 23:31:12 for example, if I 'let some variable, will it be lexical or emacs-fail-ical? 23:31:39 elisp lexical-let 23:31:39 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for lexical-let. 23:31:51 well, you get it 23:32:43 well, in general, how do I use CL stuff in here? 23:32:50 just use it like a normal function/macro? 23:32:58 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:33:15 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:27 CL package doesn't make any magic, just adds up some function and macros from CL 23:33:50 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 23:35:42 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:35:49 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 23:36:26 -!- Samy [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:36:48 Samy [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:16 Adlai, but instead of capturing *trace-output* at the top, do it inside your run function instead. Like (defun run () (with-open-file (stream ...) (let ((*trace-output* stream)) (do-stuff ...)))) 23:37:37 hey, (with-open-file (*trace-output* file) ...) 23:37:51 really? 23:37:56 oh well 23:38:05 what do you think? 23:38:43 stassats, Phaze it's a tiny bit trickier because the main bot functions run in a different thread 23:39:02 due to some crap early on in the development of sykobot that I don't understand; ask sykopomp for more details about that... 23:39:19 ahh 23:39:24 yea... 23:39:33 wut 23:39:35 what'd I do? 23:39:46 you made sykobot respond to messages in a separate thread! 23:39:51 Adlai: blame cl-irc and its input loop. 23:40:09 yes, because the cl-irc callbacks get called in a separate thread. 23:40:34 couldn't figure out how to get cl-irc to run in a single thread. Too much trouble. 23:41:46 Fare [n=Fare@bleriot.merseine.nu] has joined #lisp 23:41:55 it's good when you can blame somewhere else 23:42:03 s/somewhere/someone/ 23:42:21 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B7BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:42:26 sykopomp: why do we actually need a separate thread? 23:42:31 I'm not sure I understand 23:42:45 Adlai: input loop. 23:42:47 chavo_ [n=user@c-76-17-212-158.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:48 stassats: always. 23:43:19 sykopomp: can't we just call #'irc:read-message-loop in the main thread? 23:43:34 anyways, I'm sure it's possible. But the -easy- way of setting up input for cl-irc is to just spawn a thread. 23:43:39 Adlai: we could. Why don't you do it? :) 23:44:28 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:46:30 Adlai: read-message-loop blocks, basically. If you want the bot to do anything else, you have to make it not block :) 23:46:47 the most obvious way to do it is to throw the darn thing in a thread. 23:47:32 hi Fare 23:47:39 fe[nl]ix, hi! 23:47:41 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host230.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 23:47:52 -!- [sbahra] [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:48:02 so split osicat in two? just use and drop its pathname interface? 23:48:20 Fare: did you know about cabal ? 23:48:29 Fare: there's talk on #lispgames of trying to set up a fiber/lightweight thread library that takes care of chucking stuff into a small number of native OS threads. 23:48:47 dunno if you have thoughts on that. This stuff seems to be your thing. 23:49:07 fe[nl]ix, the Haskell thingie? I know it exists. 23:49:22 sykopomp: let's take this to #sykosomatic 23:49:23 sykopomp, interesting. Right now? 23:49:24 Fare: did you ever read its docs ? 23:49:37 Fare: there was talk about it a little earlier, but the parties involved are still about. 23:49:46 fe[nl]ix, not really -- should I? 23:49:57 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-211-225.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:41 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 23:50:45 sometimes I feel like I should "just" have made a thin adapter from CL to OMake or Cabal. 23:50:48 Fare: yes. as a build tool it's extremely well designed 23:51:06 sykopomp: Thune runs in a single thread 23:51:22 (instead of Make) 23:51:22 you just need a standard mainloop which grabs messages with cl-irc 23:52:17 How can you find the size of the visible part of a sheet in mcclim? 23:52:37 clim pane-viewport-region 23:52:37 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/29-3.html#_1641 23:53:20 -!- matley [n=matley@91.80.200.147] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:53:49 Thanks, have been looking for that for ages! 23:53:57 well, ok, a few hours anyway 23:56:10 For the record, re #lispgames logs Fare: http://privatepaste.com/b90ezdPbZj I think this is the bulk of the conversation. 23:56:10 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:56:15 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 23:57:14 Fare: mainly, it would be nice to have some guidance as to how this could be started, how it's done, etc. We're willing to code it, but I, personally, am clueless.