00:00:41 he does sound like a class-A lunatic though 00:00:42 No, no, I mean that it implies that he is a libertarian, as is customary for internet loons 00:00:46 JuanDaugherty: rarely 00:00:51 the effect is salubrious if it creates class consciousness in qualified workers that intend to stay in the industry 00:01:07 rsynnott, thx 00:02:37 hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 00:02:55 he doesn't even blog very much anymore 00:03:18 is he aged? 00:03:24 hmm. is there some method to find unmatching parens? i get a weird error right now, and clisp gives a rather uninformative message. 00:03:40 -!- jlf [n=user@209.204.171.101] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:03:45 benny` [n=benny@i577A2844.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:03:49 macdice: interesting. I've often wished i'd had a 'state of mind' while working on stuff I've had to fix/maintain... 00:04:00 hypno, an editor with a lisp mode should do 00:04:31 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:04:39 hypno: if nothing else, emacs's indentation should usually go all silly if you misplace brackets 00:06:54 *** - READ: input stream # M-x goto-line RET 2060 RET -> last in the file. 00:08:13 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-23-202.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:23 Greetings. 00:09:00 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:09:12 gigamonkey: Greetings. A kook was just talking about you. 00:09:17 minion: logs 00:09:17 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 00:09:40 He wants to hire people who have or will read PCL, but not "Lispers". 00:10:16 Because Lispers have bad personal hygiene or something? 00:10:44 "I am not looking for self-appointed high priests of Lisp (Lispers), who think that I should be thankful that such a brave and enlightened genius like yourself has deigned to apply for this job." - can we make Kenny go and work for him? 00:11:36 I'm having trouble finding it in the logs. 00:11:53 heh. 00:15:29 I've asked this before but I'm curious again: if you bought PCL already, how much would I have to add in a 2nd edition to entice you to buy a new copy? 00:15:44 And if you haven't bought it, is there anything I could add in a 2nd edition that would inspire you to? 00:16:05 gigamonkey: I think one of the main things I'd enjoy of the 2nd edition is an ebook version of it (I can helpyou with that as well) 00:16:22 Meaning a Kindle version or some such? 00:16:34 I'm trying to avoid buying paper books any more, whenever possible..yeah, kindle/sony reader - especially kindle now. 00:16:49 The Kindle DX makes reading tech books much better, so that's why. 00:17:11 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 00:17:16 *gigamonkey* thought about buying a Kindle DX just to read the 700+ page SVG spec. 00:17:27 I think there's a standard of some sort which they both do 00:17:37 gigamonkey: i'm sorry to say i haven't bought it. nothing personal. i spent my money on MOP (Gonzalez) and CLOS (Keene) and was quite happy. however: 00:17:38 gigamonkey: it's XML, so it must be easy! 00:17:40 Purchased your paperback book though, I think I remember saying I'd send some improvements to you - condition handling was something I thought needed more focus. 00:17:41 gigamonkey, i bought the book and i am basically interested in anything in the what's next chapter 00:17:43 (though the sony reader at least will also just do pdfs) 00:18:09 Sony reader PDF support isn't really good 00:18:19 ah, it's not horrendous 00:18:23 Not even worth trying..I owned one, my father now has it - it's horrible for PDF 00:18:42 Which one do you own, rsynnott? 500, 505, or the 705? 00:18:50 merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:53 I am currently reading a book on iphone programming on one; it's really not too bad 00:18:53 Of course the real problem is if I do a 2nd edition and put the new chapters on the web, that will probably really cannibalize sales among people who have the 1st edition. 00:19:05 505 00:19:09 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:21 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:19:34 (for whatever reason, the 705 is not available in Europe yet) 00:19:37 gigamonkey: i would consider it if it was more "production" oriented. how to properly design and work with large scale common lisp code. i would especially like to see stuff on reliability and fault free code. 00:19:45 rsynnott: Did you convert it yourself or did you buy it from the store? REason why I'm asking is because you can optimize PDFs to work on the reader, it just makes it into 60+Mb files and all. 00:20:15 TDT: bought it from a third party (pragmatic programmers beta book) 00:20:34 And Apress has this funny tiered royalty system which gets reset on a new edition. So I have to be pretty sure I'll sell 75% again *more* copies if I do a 2nd edition than I would have sold otherwise or I'm losing money. 00:20:37 rsynnott: Ah ok, yeah their stuff is optimized pretty nicely, well..not for the DX, unfortunately. 00:20:40 The book business is so messed up. 00:21:03 no kindles available here yet, unfortunately 00:21:14 gigamonkey: losing money? They actually charge you for it? 00:21:29 rsynnott: When they are, I really recommend that you trying the DX, it's really slick 00:21:50 I use my DX every day now, everything I read on ther eincluding some web content is done on it 00:21:56 rsynnott: no, in the sense that if I do nothing PCL 1st ed. will consider to sell a certain number of copies for which I'm not getting relatively high royalties. 00:22:11 They are currently in negotiations with O2, which is an evil telecom, so it will probably be about a decade 00:22:21 But a 2nd edition starts over at a lower royalty rate, so if I end up selling exactly the same number of copies, I get less in royalties. 00:22:28 ah, that's ridiculous 00:22:35 (To say nothing of the opportunity cost of spending time on a 2nd edition.) 00:22:38 <[df]> that is pretty messed up 00:23:14 Especially since it's exactly the books which sell a reasonable number of copies (and thus get into the higher royalty rate) where you'd probably like to do new editions. 00:23:49 gigamonkey: How many copies did PCL sell, or do you know that number? 00:24:07 From Apress to distributors, a bit over 8,000. 00:24:27 Some of those have not yet made it to actual readers--they're sitting on bookstore shelves or whatever. 00:24:29 That's a good number, not super high but definitely a nice dent considering the current popularity of Lisp. 00:25:21 I'm very curious to see how Coders at Work sells. It should have a broader audience but it doesn't have the kind of built-in audience PCL has. 00:25:32 It's obviously picking up; O'Reilly is bringing one out 00:25:36 it is very odd: http://lisp-book.org/contents/ 00:25:57 rsynnott: I hate to say it but that book is part of what's motivating me to think about a 2nd ed. 00:26:01 <[df]> gigamonkey: fwiw, coders at work has definitely piqued my interest 00:26:03 Maybe instead of creating a 2nd edition so much, maybe expanding on what you covered in the first edition, kinda like a supplement. 00:26:15 *gigamonkey* can't be letting some new kid encroach on his turf. 00:26:19 gigamonkey: well, be sure to choose a less mad structure 00:26:54 (chapter 13,14: allegro-cache, c. 17: image processing, c. 18: SLIME) 00:27:18 Yeah, exactly - image processing would be very interesting. 00:27:33 TDT: odd thing to cover before slime, though :) 00:27:35 I'll take credit for showing the world that Lisp books can delay talking about Lists. 00:28:19 Heck, maybe even some cl-mpi and some other frameworks like clsql for orm-ish like stuff + web frameworks like .. well, forgetting the name of it, which is funny since I spent about 1.5 hours going through dependency hell during a meeting trying to get it installed. 00:28:39 TDT: That's a long meeting. 00:28:41 TDT: ucw or weblocks 00:28:47 weblocks, that's the one 00:28:49 it almost must be one or the other :) 00:28:55 god, that thing not being asdf-installable sucked. 00:29:01 well, where do you see lisp being used most in the future? 00:29:16 gigamonkey: I wish that were a long meeting 00:29:18 <[df]> weblocks is asdf-installable isn't it? 00:29:18 gigamonkey: Yeah, developer meeting at the UI - 2 hour conference, which I have no clue what was discussed. 00:29:32 [df]: not according to the web site or install guides. 00:29:45 *rsynnott* had a meeting about what the scandanavians use instead of credit cards, for about 2 hours, this week. It was suicide-inducing 00:29:54 If it is, I'm kicking myself in the butt because I really spent some time getting that installed, haha. 00:30:02 -!- macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["time to put my brain back in the jar"] 00:30:10 <[df]> hmm, pretty certain last time I installed it asdf-install dealt with the many dependencies for me 00:31:06 I may have installed it incorrectly, I just created the symlinks directly and ran (require :weblocks) and started having fun. 00:31:14 *TDT* makes note to *always* try asdf-install before doing other stuff. 00:31:17 <[df]> oh, maybe it isn't in itself, but the doc recommends using asdf-install to install the dependencies 00:31:45 there's also clbuild 00:32:07 <[df]> I should probably try clbuild 00:32:28 <[df]> lately I've been inclined just to download the source to stuff and create a symlink in my asdf dir manually 00:32:44 there's nothing like a slightly obscure lisp library for hours of fun pulling things with ALL of the version control systems, though :) 00:32:44 <[df]> but that's a lot of effort for something with as many dependencies as weblocks 00:33:04 (there are even a few lisp libs using that weird GNU VCS that no-one uses) 00:33:10 -!- merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:33:44 clbuild is something I'm not familiar with. 00:34:01 <[df]> rsynnott: I assume you mean arch? 00:34:10 <[df]> but I think gnu has officially adopted bzr now 00:34:35 BOTH of them 00:34:44 (possibly; definitely arch, anyway) 00:34:51 Speaking of weblocks, something on a similar vein, is there anything ORM-like. clsql is a abstraction of sorts, a library but isn't really an ORM that I could tell. Searches through google basically said "this doesn't exist". 00:34:53 I vaguely thought they were two names for the same thing 00:34:57 <[df]> well bzr can't really be described as one no-one uses 00:34:59 <[df]> it sucks though 00:35:20 *TDT* is using git..and developing a cl-git library. 00:35:22 <[df]> bzr is mark shuttleworth's pet vcs 00:35:30 TDT: cl-perec is an ORM 00:35:49 you will be glad to know that it is even more dependency-hellish than weblocks ;) 00:35:59 haha, fantastic 00:36:00 <[df]> meh, ORM as a concept sucks 00:36:21 It's a restriction sometimes, I will agree, with simple stuff, an ORM isn't too bad though 00:36:26 what is an ORM? object database? 00:36:32 OBJECT-RELATIONAL MATCHING 00:36:33 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-perec/showcase.html 00:36:34 <[df]> object relational mapping 00:36:35 er, mapping 00:36:39 er, capslock 00:36:46 jchicas [n=jchicas@140smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 00:36:54 kpreid: heh, i'll never forget that one. :) 00:37:01 <[df]> an attempt to mash together the entirely different concepts of object systems and relational databases 00:37:11 for proper object database, see elephant 00:37:18 (or allegrocache, I think) 00:38:01 yeah, I'm thinking of working with weblock to create a dynamic site, with say cl-perec onthe backend, well maybe..gotta think that out a lot 00:38:15 ORMs are messy at times, and very inefficient on filter-operations. 00:38:35 ActiveRecord has some horrible performance times at work, as a result of some of the ORM-weirdities 00:38:42 -!- dryahetzeph is now known as hydrapheetz 00:39:07 *rsynnott* has found that in the end, using an ORM tends to require writing lots and lots of SQL :) 00:39:08 i guess it's nice to have data in some sort of querifiable db with all the goodies that has, but if it's a simple site, you can just store objects in your lisp image. 00:39:31 <[df]> I don't dislike it on efficiency terms, I just think it is not the Right Thing (TM) 00:39:36 hypno: Hmm, not sure how that's done... 00:40:03 [df]: That's the second time I heard about that! "The Right Thing" I read from a coworker's email today, very interesting but kinda confusing to me 00:40:32 http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html 00:40:33 <[df]> heh 00:40:42 TDT: just make CLOS objects and put them on some list or somesuch. you can write them out on a redo-log file to redo all transactions, and/or you can load em up and dump a new image. 00:40:50 <[df]> yes, I know that article all too well 00:40:54 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:41:11 hypno: there's a thingy whose name I can't remember which does that for you 00:41:20 [df]: Is the general idea of it that Lisp tends to think things out to make the better solution, rather than the quick solution? 00:41:50 hypno: I'll have to google some on that - I have no clue what a redo-log is, or how to dump/reload images quite yet...still a newbie, well, will be a newbie for many years I bet. 00:41:55 rsynnott: bknr? ro something else you are thinking about? 00:42:10 <[df]> I think maybe it comes down to pragmatism winning over idealism :( 00:42:27 worse is still better, a lesson I don't think the CL world as quite absorbed 00:43:08 hypno: ah, yes, bknr has one 00:43:14 I can see it going both ways on that. 00:43:30 I mean, idealism is really good for really critical stuff, banking records and that kinda stuff. 00:43:49 <[df]> TDT: it depends what your end goal is perhaps 00:44:01 Whereas, pragmatism is better for stuff that can afford to not be totally perfect right away. 00:44:34 End-user apps is a classic area for that..without end user feedback, a project can greatly derail from what is actually helpful to the end user..at least that's how I see all this. 00:44:46 TDT: it's trivial. you just append out the intended operation as a sexp (the code) in a file. that way you can LOAD later on or even COMPILE-FILE, etc. 00:44:57 *rsynnott* suspects that banking records are less idealistic and more COBOLy 00:45:14 <[df]> ah, but unfortunately worse is better rules in critical industries too 00:45:43 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 00:45:52 Yeah, I think it does everywhere..because people want results. 00:46:08 Stakeholders aren't patient enough to say "hey this will take years before we see a return on our investment" 00:46:53 I don't think there exists a CL implementation I'd trust to run things if I were a bank. 00:47:08 <[df]> hefner: really? not even one of the commercial ones? 00:47:26 That's interesting, why not hefner? 00:47:28 <[df]> I ask from a position of total ignorance btw 00:47:43 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:06 well, okay, maybe a bank. but not a nuclear power plant/ :) 00:48:19 that sounds odd. it's not like you would be running on just one machine, etc if you are writing production software for banks. and the backend storage is likely to matter more. 00:48:25 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:48:29 <[df]> but what would you trust to run a nuclear power plant? 00:48:32 <[df]> c++? 00:48:53 Ada? 00:49:05 CL implementations are too complicated, there's too much that can go wrong behind the scenes. 00:49:07 Java, which MAY NOT BE USED IN NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS 00:49:14 (it says so in the license)) 00:49:16 haha 00:49:17 <[df]> heh 00:49:35 <[df]> maybe ada is a good answer, it was designed for that sort of thing 00:49:47 <[df]> I've not had the pleasure, fortunately 00:50:19 (Incidentally, the recent shutdown of one of the TVA plants was due to a badly written TCP stack in a pump control computer flooding its network with rubbish) 00:50:31 hefner: I can see what you're talking about, and agree with you. For the banks, though, I wouldn't..as you many times have verification of automated tasks which yeah.. 00:51:08 <[df]> TDT: as for doing the Right Thing, I think it can happen in free software where it's a labour of love 00:51:42 [df]: Which probably explains why free software is generally stable as heck, but also ugly as sin (as the saying goes) 00:51:43 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has joined #lisp 00:52:09 [df]: More focus on the functionality and less on the end-user's explicit needs. Which...I'm with free software in most circumstances :) 00:52:13 <[df]> the best free software is written for the authors 00:52:22 *nod* 00:52:27 <[df]> to mis-paraphrase esr 00:53:07 the best software is written for the author, period. as soon as you bring other people into the picture, the requirements go all spooky and bloat out with UI requirements and things you don't actually need. 00:53:30 (where I apparently define "best" as "easiest to implement". hrm.) 00:53:38 <[df]> I guess most non-hackers don't even know what they need 00:53:40 such as TCP stacks on waste-water pumps, for instance 00:54:38 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483B1F5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:56:08 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@140smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:57:15 jchicas [n=jchicas@140smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 00:57:42 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:59:47 the apollo lander code is up on google code now, actually 00:59:53 it's in ASSEMBLY 01:00:09 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Client Quit] 01:00:15 it would have been rather embarassing for the programmer if they'd made a mistake 01:00:46 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 01:03:15 rsynnott: what dialect 01:03:21 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@140smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:03:50 well, whatever processor they used for it, I'd imagine 01:04:08 the Apollo Guidance Computer 01:04:11 <[df]> it was a pretty hardcore achievement 01:04:14 which was a unique architecture 01:04:20 I hear there are emulators for it 01:04:31 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["42nd quit message."] 01:04:39 <[df]> ooh, could make for an interesting coding contest 01:04:52 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 01:05:06 the Voyager probes had a particularly weird processor 01:05:11 [df]: right: patch the software for relativist speeds :-) 01:05:18 capable of winding down to a few Hz without crashing 01:05:18 hmm 01:05:19 bdowning_ [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:52 (space computers have since gotten less exciting; the Iridium sats just have eight powerpcs each) 01:06:18 <[df]> what do they use to program them these days? 01:06:22 <[df]> ada perhaps 01:06:26 ppc are quite exciting, compared to intel processors. 01:06:35 C++ 01:06:53 <[df]> I liked the story about fixing some lisp code in orbit from a repl 01:07:08 oh, that was Deep Space 1 01:07:12 hefner: some time ago there was a post on c.l.l. regarding the use of lispworks in belgian nuclear power plants 01:07:23 fe[nl]ix: not for actual control, though 01:07:31 planning refueling, or something 01:07:56 hrmf, I hate deciding on new computers at times. 01:08:05 Thinking of a MBP, but dang those are expensive 01:08:07 ada is certainly common in space stuff 01:08:15 <[df]> 'C gives you enough rope to hang yourself with; C++ gives you enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot' 01:08:18 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:08:33 (the Ariane explosion was due to ada type-checking being incorrectly disabled, largely) 01:08:35 <[df]> can't remember who said that, but it hits the nail right on the head 01:08:56 TDT: the smaller ones aren't that expensive these days 01:09:18 rsynnott: hmm. wasn't that because they were running with wrong code for the right hardware? (ie, Ariane 4 code) 01:09:44 hypno: I think that was also part of it 01:10:03 rsynnott: no, they decided not to handle an integer overflow exception for efficiency reasons. and the overflow came :D 01:10:17 heh 01:10:34 I'd imagine it was reasonably off-putting to the astronauts 01:10:36 <[df]> TDT: http://www.cray.com/products/CX1.aspx 01:10:37 rsynnott: Yeah, the 13 inch is pretty nice, but I use virtual machines + some gaming, so the 15.4 is the smallest I can get. 01:11:08 (plans to use Ariane V for a manned craft hadn't been entirely abandoned at the time; they are now being revisited) 01:11:24 rsynnott: well, perhaps at first, but surely later it got all hot, oh so very hot. 01:11:36 [df]: haha, yeah, I'm still considering sometime building a miniwulf cluster. 01:11:38 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:38 rsynnott: there were no astronauts involved, only a very expensive satellite 01:11:49 Probably not though, given what I heard. 01:11:58 fe[nl]ix: nope, but ESA had (and still has) an astronaut training programme 01:11:58 rsynnott: hey! Ariane 5 has less explosions in flight (even counting the two prototypes) than the Shuttle! 01:12:30 (and at the time, they were still looking at launching a sort of small shuttle on it) 01:12:44 the new manned thing that they're considering is just an ATV variant 01:13:04 pjb: well, yes, but the Shuttle is old, and noted for its explode-y-ness 01:14:00 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:15:27 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:15:47 (the Soyuz settled for killing people in more boring ways, such as pressure loss and wolves 01:16:31 -!- Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:16:45 wolves ?? 01:17:07 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:17:21 <[df]> common problem in space 01:17:40 <[df]> http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Wolves 01:17:43 a soyuz landed off-course in Siberia at some point; recovery took a while and the crew were nearly eaten by wolves 01:18:29 groovy! 01:19:01 one of the really early ones; Soyuz 5 01:21:09 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-eba4121e8a802768] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:21:15 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:21:18 -!- bdowning_ is now known as bdowning 01:24:48 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:25:03 ah, no, it was a Voskhod 01:25:38 (Soyuz 5 just landed off course and the cosmonauts had to wait around in someone's cottage for a bit 01:27:59 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:28:14 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 01:29:06 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-53-102.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 01:33:15 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 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[n=pradyus@117.192.7.56] has joined #lisp 04:07:59 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-186-88.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:09:16 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-148-57.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:22:19 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:22:50 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 04:24:23 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:26:51 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Client Quit] 04:27:16 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 04:27:41 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:32:54 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 04:36:29 chavo_ [n=user@c-76-17-212-158.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:50 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:37 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-76-17-212-158.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:40:29 chavo_ [n=user@c-76-17-212-158.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:05 Good morning. 04:46:36 sreeram_ [n=sreeram@122.174.68.56] has joined #lisp 04:46:36 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.68.56] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:47:12 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit ["leaving"] 04:47:56 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 04:48:00 morning 04:48:10 Still the same TOPIC? 04:48:19 hello splittist 04:49:04 hi beach. Did you notice lichtblau's repository with (potentially) a tab-layout fixed ftd? 04:49:51 splittist: Nope! 04:50:07 Is it based on your code? 04:50:28 Yes. It's in the logs somewhere (: Also I think it might be the one mentioned in clbuild (if one is). 04:51:02 beach: also, I think osicat would be the way to go to replace the CFFI-UNIX stuff. It could also replace CL-FAD. 04:51:39 beach: I also made a paste with some thoughts, the number for which I have lost and will try to find... 04:52:11 splittist: I'll check the logs. Thanks! 04:52:19 -!- sreeram_ [n=sreeram@122.174.68.56] has quit [] 04:53:09 -!- exu0 [n=u@dslb-084-056-204-013.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:53:12 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.68.56] has joined #lisp 04:53:31 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 04:53:40 exu0 [n=u@dslb-084-056-204-013.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:59 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest62039 04:54:15 beach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/83900 04:54:36 Yeah, just found it. Thanks! 04:55:28 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:56:56 robbyoconnor [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 04:58:22 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 04:59:57 splittist: Your thoughts in that paste seem quite reasonable to me. 05:00:11 zophy-ng [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:13 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:00:59 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:02:04 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-76-17-212-158.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:03:20 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.7.237] has joined #lisp 05:06:49 Adamant [n=Adamant@66.213.192.210] has joined #lisp 05:07:25 beach: thanks! 05:09:06 -!- TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:11:09 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.7.56] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:12:04 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:12:38 hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.12.120] has joined #lisp 05:13:37 pstickne [n=pstickne@24.21.76.57] has joined #lisp 05:19:46 http://usairsucks.org 05:20:37 -!- Guest62039 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 05:25:00 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.7.237] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:25:04 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 05:31:37 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:31 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.12.120] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:39:19 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit ["leaving"] 05:39:48 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-131-223.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:45:41 peddie_ [n=matthew@67.169.49.37] has joined #lisp 05:46:56 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-242f3ff623c87705] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:49:04 -!- Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:49:56 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-131-223.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:53:05 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-131-223.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:54:02 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-131-223.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:55:13 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 05:56:24 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-127-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:57:16 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 05:57:36 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:58:17 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A2844.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:59:45 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@68.121.172.169] has joined #lisp 05:59:55 evening 06:00:11 -!- peddie [n=matthew@67.169.49.37] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:00:35 *Adlai* realized that there are no lexical closures in elisp. meh. 06:00:47 hello slyrus_ 06:00:56 evening slyrus_ 06:04:07 hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.12.7] has joined #lisp 06:04:54 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.12.7] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:06:26 hi Adlai, off topic but for lexically scoped vars use lexical-let in elisp 06:06:46 have you no self respect? :P 06:07:10 thx... I don't think I'm gonna use it in this hack anyways, I'm not gonna gain anything. 06:09:28 hey beach. distracting myself from some of the harder problems in chemicl with some low-hanging fruit in cl-bio that will replace kmr's cl-pubmed package. 06:10:13 hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.12.7] has joined #lisp 06:10:22 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["testing time"] 06:10:59 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 06:12:31 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-74-103.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:12:37 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Client Quit] 06:13:16 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 06:14:01 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-74-103.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:14:14 slyrus_: Sorry, computer crashed. 06:14:35 slyrus: So another FFI interface replaced by native Lisp code? 06:20:15 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.12.7] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:20:44 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:21:39 hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.12.7] has joined #lisp 06:26:04 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:26:07 girzel [n=user@123.121.238.190] has joined #lisp 06:27:02 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 06:27:46 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Client Quit] 06:28:40 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:30:07 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.12.7] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:31:17 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:32:54 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-131-223.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:34:54 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 06:37:13 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-117-37.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 06:40:12 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 06:42:15 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:43:09 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:43:23 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:48:48 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:48:58 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:49:04 hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.12.7] has joined #lisp 06:51:07 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-131-223.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:51:07 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.12.7] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:54:53 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-131-223.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:56:03 beach: no, this is lisp code replacing lisp code 06:57:48 lisp-on-lisp violence! 06:58:42 slyrus_: So what's the reason for replacing it? 06:59:59 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:01:58 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.238.190] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:01:59 macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:02:27 beach: it was decided that lisp was a superior language. 07:02:29 :D 07:02:50 well, kmr's stuff uses things like kmrcl, trivial-http and some home-grown xml processing stuff. cl-bio already had some more robust infrastructure for getting xml documents from NCBI/Entrez using drakma, xpath, cxml-stp, etc... and it seemed easier to just extend cl-bio to parse the pubmed stuff rather than using cl-pubmed 07:03:47 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit ["leaving"] 07:04:54 I see. 07:05:26 nih syndrome, the bane of lisp :) 07:07:23 better is better. 07:07:39 and worse. and worse is better. 07:11:14 hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.12.7] has joined #lisp 07:11:29 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 07:11:31 -!- rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:11:57 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:49 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.12.7] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:13:47 hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.12.7] has joined #lisp 07:18:37 aircastle [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:20:57 benny [n=benny@i577A2844.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:25:37 no, the bane of CL is not having a kicking dev-environment like the Smalltalkers have always had 07:25:44 totally live, but compiled 07:26:07 with the power of CL that the Smalltalkers never had 07:26:08 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:26:47 -!- aircastle [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:29:21 In CL you can choose 07:30:39 what can you do in these awesome smalltalk envs that isn't so convenient in lisp? 07:31:42 no one can hear your lisp when you're speaking in smalltalk... 07:34:18 barkley: yeah, those smalltalk environments really took off; you see them everywhere, don't you? 07:36:29 org-mode! 07:37:41 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 07:37:43 good morning 07:37:59 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 07:38:21 Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:38:57 aircastle [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:41:45 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-31.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:46:01 While hacking Lisp, I do frequently bemoan my inability to quickly scribble a crude image of a car from a few rectangles and script them to drive around the screen. I am so terribly jealous of Squeak at these times. 07:46:55 barkley: I have the same (sincere) question as c|mell, because I have never used any of those environments. Only seen demos of them, but those demos made them look more like toys than serious development environments. 07:47:51 hefner: Do I detect some irony there? 07:49:53 drive through you datastructures 07:49:54 I think that's just garden-variety sarcasm, 07:49:56 your 07:50:23 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-23-202.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:52:54 fvw_ [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 07:58:14 There was a lisp in flash implementation that supported driving crude images of cars around the screen. 07:58:24 Perhaps that would help. 07:59:32 possibly. can I fashion a crude sailboat for the cdrs? 08:00:06 Sure, why not? 08:03:24 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-117-37.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:03:30 Hmm, well, using bidirectional generator stacks actually does seem less expensive and annoying than CPS transformation. 08:03:40 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 08:04:00 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:04:19 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-235.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 08:04:48 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-31.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:04:55 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-31.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:05:34 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:06:44 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@KD124213182069.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:07:11 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-31.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 08:07:15 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-31.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:07:36 -!- fvw_ is now known as fvw 08:08:15 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:12:11 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:14:10 asksol [n=ask@249.241.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 08:17:51 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:17:54 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:01 dv___ [n=dv@85-127-110-139.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 08:20:23 okflo [n=user@91-115-93-189.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 08:24:11 Taggnostr [n=x@86.50.69.116] has joined #lisp 08:26:25 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 08:26:42 any parescript users around? .. how does one deal with cases like these; (ps:ps (encode-uri-component "test")) => "encodeUriComponent('test');" ..? (.. it should be "encodeURIComponent", not "Uri" ..) 08:27:17 Well, the stupud approach would be to write encode-u-r-i-component :) 08:27:38 I don't remeber anything more clever. 08:28:11 haa .. good idea .. :) 08:28:46 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:30:14 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.7.237] has joined #lisp 08:30:59 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-235.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:36:13 c|mell [n=cmell@KD124213182069.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:37:19 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:37:41 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:51 after using parenscript for quite a while i decided to make the js emitter in cl-quasi-quote case sensitive 08:40:58 -!- dv___ [n=dv@85-127-110-139.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 08:41:43 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590f86f1.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 08:44:34 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:44:37 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:45:19 mh .. a :preserve that made sense would be nice at times 08:46:18 lichtblau: around? 08:49:38 ehu`_ [n=chatzill@5354B9BA.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lisp 08:50:53 besides american internet dominance there's a logical reason behind english as the universal language 08:50:57 science 08:51:11 german was too long and wordy 08:51:26 american english just made up "terse" words on the fly 08:51:52 and you mean that the context sensitivity of english is not too high for anything scientific? 08:51:56 english we can just make up crap on the fly 08:51:58 *lichtblau* sees an XML question coming 08:52:02 oh no 08:52:03 -!- tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:52:06 i'm scared about XML 08:52:10 tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 08:52:10 very scared 08:52:15 -!- tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [K-lined] 08:52:26 sounds like a Java speaker 08:52:34 Java speakers love XML 08:52:41 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 08:53:58 hey lichtblau... I guess it's an XML question... the problem is that I have an entity-resolver that calls (open ... 08:54:04 and the stream never gets closed 08:54:49 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:55:00 -!- ehu`_ is now known as ehu` 08:55:01 Why do you expect it to close? 08:55:41 I would have expected it to close, because I thought that we had stomped out this sort of bug a long time ago. Apparently not. 08:55:55 that's why you java idiots need the "using ()" construct 08:56:05 (And I'm saying "we", because I think this patch originally came from somewhere else, I just don't recall who it was.) 08:56:10 so you don't have to finalize 08:56:23 barkley: what's up with the constant Java talk? #java is over there ---> 08:56:38 Java has try-finally -- that's sufficient. 08:56:47 brother, i'm talking C# and telling the Java folks need to get a better language 08:56:51 slyrus_: test case? 08:56:55 no, no 08:57:00 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:57:00 try-finally is not sufficient 08:57:06 that is total bullshit 08:57:13 java 7 will get a using-construct 08:57:23 Hmm.. now where have I ended up. 08:57:28 in Lisp or Boo we just write a Macro 08:57:29 barkley: stop talking Java. And stop talking C#. The same goes for anything else != Lisp. Thanks. 08:57:46 lichtblau: no, not really :) well, ok, all of cl-bio, I guess. It's more of a design issue... if the entity-resolver calls open, there's no corresponding close call, AFAICT. 08:58:28 Zhivago? 08:58:29 woh 08:58:31 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 08:58:38 didn't even notice that was you 08:59:36 barkley: are those stories Charlie Murphy tells about you true? 08:59:48 Zhivago: so you are still dicking around with CL these days or have you moved onto greener pastures? 09:00:00 All callers of XSTREAM-OPEN-EXTID (and hence, the ENTITY-RESOLVER) also use WITH-ZSTREAM to ensure that it wil be closed. 09:00:04 Charlie Murphy kicks Axels ass:) 09:00:17 is WITH-ZSTREAM broken or are you seeing a different call path? 09:00:45 Charlie Murphy's 1984 jerry curl kicks Rick James ass 09:01:21 zhiv: do you participate on c.l.l? 09:01:45 I'm guessing the former, perhaps in the sense that the input stack has been popped already by the time the zstream closes. 09:01:56 lichtblau: hehe 09:02:00 lichtblau: trying to wing it? 09:02:25 lichtblau: hmm... I'm going to have to check this out in the morning. it's getting late here. 09:02:31 girzel [n=user@123.121.254.143] has joined #lisp 09:02:43 shit, it's 4am here 09:02:57 that's zhiv's shit 09:03:02 zhiv always did shit 09:03:30 slyrus_: okay. I'll have a look myself. Perhaps it'll be fixed before you wake up. :-) 09:03:39 thanks! 09:03:42 Is this trollday or what is going on? 09:03:43 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.12.7] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:03:45 lichtblau: waht do you do? 09:03:51 schmx: i'm not trolling sir 09:03:58 schmx: i'm just geeking out 09:04:11 uhm ok 09:04:27 schmx: no, there is no "uhm" 09:04:37 Does anyone want it removed? 09:04:38 *JuanDaugherty* cautions barkley that #lisp has limited patience and ample curmudgeons 09:04:55 hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.22.83] has joined #lisp 09:05:15 me understands 09:05:17 Zhivago: I use /ignore, so I'm good. 09:05:25 sorry, wrong channel; 09:05:45 well, hell, that's the reason i came here is for CL curmudeons 09:05:58 but i do thank JuanDaugherty for the warning 09:06:07 np 09:06:47 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 09:06:51 -!- barkley [n=rickjame@24-107-56-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has left #lisp 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[n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:43:38 -!- joswig [n=joswig@e177121239.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:43:38 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2F1E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:50:14 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1D038.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:25 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:01:08 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A4DA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:01:23 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:43 neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:50 i'm looking at the crossposts to comp.lang.scheme from comp.lang.lisp, which i have not actively followed in years 12:05:16 i think that the constant flamewars on that newsgroup are a huge liability for "lisp" 12:06:16 other languages have flamewars too... I think Lisp's PR problems are older than Usenet :) 12:06:17 anyone who wants to see more companies use lisp should fund a large man, several plane tickets, and a baseball bat suitable for breaking usenet-posting fingers 12:06:43 companies base their decisions on usenet posts? 12:06:50 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1E280.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:07:24 manuel: not as much anymore, but still 12:07:45 I think that lisp is too simple for the novice programmer. 12:07:53 Novices crave complexity. 12:08:15 I'd think usenet flamewars are irrelevant. 12:08:20 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:08:28 Zhivago: complexity of syntax or complexity of creative potential? 12:08:59 -!- neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has left #lisp 12:09:08 Today I learned about asdf-binary-locations. Nice... 12:09:22 Now all binaries are under ~/.fasls 12:09:50 both. the syntax is a problem at first. the creative potential is dangerous later in the sense that you very easily can end up with shitty programs that looks like a blend of C and perl, without error-handling, etc. 12:09:56 *Adlai* has them sorted by implementation, in a subdirectory if the source files. 12:10:41 Adlai: Pointless complexity, mostly. 12:10:51 Novices are doing something that they perceive as difficult. 12:10:52 Zhivago: e.g.? 12:11:08 The more complex the task is, the easier it is to justify their difficulty with it 12:11:22 and the greater the perceived skill when they overcome it. 12:11:37 *Adlai* found the various syntax, OO, and "interface" stuff in Java interesting in 9th grade 12:11:38 -!- segv_ is now known as segv 12:11:47 that's an example of pointless complexity. 12:12:09 Yes. But it's a nice illusory barrier for your ego to overcome. 12:12:17 Novices are not a problem. The problem are the incompetents in managerial position. 12:12:20 Zhivago: Indeed, Lao Tzu said  in Tao Te Ching. 12:12:50 Qvidqve Latine dictit, altum sitit. 12:12:52 I think the other part is that people prefer superficial complexity to simple things that require deep changes in their thinking. 12:13:00 PHP is a good example of this. 12:13:21 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.254.143] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:13:24 (That which is said in Latin seems profound) 12:13:29 Highly intuitive piece of extreme complexity that requires a great deal of rote memorization and bugger all learning. 12:13:33 Zhivago: sorry, google can't translate Zhuo Qiao. 12:13:47 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-53-102.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:13:51 pjb: I think you have misdirected that comment. 12:14:02 Oops, sorry. 12:14:17 James Legge seems to translate  (chapter 45) as 12:14:53 hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.10.15] has joined #lisp 12:15:07 What's straight seem crooked, and the greatest art seems simple. 12:15:17 Thanks. 12:15:39 (Well, only the second clause. I included the context.) 12:15:54 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:16:40 I guess Lisp fits "the greatest art seems simple". 12:16:51 Indeed. 12:16:58 Well, lisp implementations are packed full of useless complexity. 12:17:56 Zhivago: And why is that? 12:18:09 Zhivago: like what? 12:18:09 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:18 Lisp people are stupid, too. 12:18:44 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 12:18:51 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:52 hypno: Like char 12:18:53 Yes, but it's not the same stupidity. 12:18:59 Programming language, being interface, should accomondate its users' stupidity. 12:20:04 CL is full of useless complexity -- it's a syncretic abomination. 12:20:31 Why are fixnum and bignum types rather than classes? 12:20:39 Zhivago: you can define and implement a subset of CL. 12:20:40 Zhivago: I guess once upon a time, compatibility was important, just to get standard some backing. 12:20:45 (Which is irrelevant now.) 12:21:18 Zhivago: you could probably implement them as classes, and defining a subset of your implementation as a subset of CL. 12:21:19 pjb: Sure I can, but how much resistance would it meet? 12:21:37 pjb: That's not what I asked. 12:21:48 Not necessarily much, if it has clear advantages otherwise. Much less than clojure for example. 12:22:03 pjb: Is there resistance to clojure 12:22:07 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [""I learned to code the hard way. The way the man who learnt the vibrator was infact an electric pencil sharpener." -- Manic"] 12:22:14 pjb: Every attempt to streamline CL has met with vast cries of 'you evil schemer!' 12:22:17 Yes I resist clojure for it's gratuituously different from CL. 12:22:24 I got the impression that it mostly attracted new people, not people already in Lisp world. 12:22:28 (+ 1 2) ; scheme or cl? 12:22:33 And thank got for that. 12:25:11 Pepe___ [n=ppjet@78.113.15.249] has joined #lisp 12:25:40 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:26:48 hohum .. JavaScript really, really wants to be a Lisp .. *sigh* .. i can't parse this stuff: (function(){ return (function(){ }) }) vs. (lambda () (lambda ())) 12:26:53 :) 12:27:15 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 12:27:24 lnostdal: "less parentheses". 12:27:37 Can you use Lisp on the web (to replace JavaScript) 12:27:44 pjb: moar brackets 12:27:51 And you could write (lambda () (progn (return (lambda () (progn (return)))))) 12:28:05 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-79-16.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:28:12 lnostdal: Maybe because no one writes javascript like that (ie, empty functions). Add some code to both examples and the proper carriage return and indentation and you might find it easier. 12:28:15 sanxiyn, yeah, parenscript: (ps:ps (lambda () (lambda ()))) that will generate the code above (i had to patch parenscript a bit to deal with nesting proper though) 12:28:16 (for a fair comparison). 12:28:54 Lisp via emacs (in my case it's ccl/win32 xemacs but may hold true to others) - how do you send a break to the running lisp? E.g. to break out of (loop do print). . . . 12:29:08 C-c C-c 12:29:09 C-c C-c or C-c C-g 12:29:36 herbieB, the function bodies being empty does not cause trouble .. i find it interesting however, that i basically have to wrap everything in outer parens (where is the C syntax now??) to make it not try to parse the inner function as if it where a name for the outer function .. :P 12:30:13 Don't worry, C-like syntax is silly. 12:30:29 lnostdal: Try new 12:30:30 indeed, pjb 12:30:42 lnostdal: new function() { return new function() {} } 12:30:45 lnostdal: Is more javascripty 12:31:04 herbieB: is move Javay 12:31:39 herbieB, yeah, if the outer parens cause trouble in some context i haven't thought of yet(tm) i'll go for a new .. thanks for the tip :) 12:31:56 lnostdal: It seems to be js:js, not ps:ps... 12:31:58 Adlai: There's a reason they called it javascript and not lispscript :P 12:32:07 (but then again; that might also apply when using new .. just in a different context :P) 12:32:56 But since we're all here: Why does sbcl not show me variable bindings in a let block when stepping? 12:33:04 herbieB: have you read the entry on JS in the Brief, Incorrect, and Mostly Wrong History of Programming Languages? 12:33:17 Adlai: Yes :P 12:33:38 lichtblau pasted "slyrus_: stream test" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84168 12:33:49 ofc, the greatest win in that article, imo, is about Objective-C: "Historians suspect the two were dyslexic." 12:33:49 slyrus_: see paste. I can't reproduce a problem. 12:33:54 Why do I not get a new frame where I can list the locals and find out the values of the variables in the let block? 12:35:15 herbieB, wild guess; a let block is not a frame (call) 12:35:30 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.144.45.150] has joined #lisp 12:35:39 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1CC06.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:35:51 lnostdal: Well, that would be the logical answer, in which case the question morphs to: How do I get access to those variables? 12:36:15 herbieB: if you want the same effect in your code, with a new stack frame, try forcing it to be a lambda. 12:36:39 ie, (let ((a (expr))) foo) => ((lambda (a) foo) (expr)) 12:36:43 -!- okflo` [n=user@91-115-93-189.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:37:13 Adlai: I could just add a print statement as well, the idea is for general purpose debugging (I am using the stepper so I don't have to go aroudn and mutate code to learn values of variables) 12:37:13 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 12:37:14 as long as you're not worried about your code winning ugliest code of the month... 12:37:17 okflo` [n=user@91-115-93-189.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:37:45 I'm not familiar with the stepper though, this is just a general suggestion. 12:38:11 Adlai: Nodnod, is the stepper widely used? 12:38:23 Never heard of it before now :) 12:38:47 herbieB: No, actually not. I wonder how you figured how to use it in slime 12:38:57 i've been using the stepper just now (the parenscript compiler) .. it's very nice when exploring a new project figuring out where stuff leads to 12:39:17 tcr: :P I'm using it from generic SBCL to learn how it works in order to add decent debug support in nekthuth :P 12:39:18 lnostdal: M-. and M-, ftw 12:39:34 Adlai, very hard in this case 12:39:39 Adlai, but in general, yes 12:39:53 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@78.113.15.173] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:39:57 -!- Pepe___ is now known as Pepe 12:40:00 -!- Pepe is now known as Pepe_ 12:40:47 herbieB: What is nekthuth? 12:40:50 herbieB: You can look into sbcl's swank backend, how it's done there. You may also want to wait until jsnell stops lurking. 12:40:59 tcr: Nodnod. Thanks. 12:41:06 minion: tell sanxiyn about nekthuth 12:41:07 sanxiyn: please look at nekthuth: Nekthuth: Connection with a Lisp Nekthuth is the combination of a vim plugin and a common lisp library which enables vim users to start up or connect to a CL interpreter inside vim, and do interesting things with it. http://www.cliki.net/nekthuth 12:41:48 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 12:42:01 herbieB: Oh, Vim. 12:42:54 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590f86f1.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:43:08 HG` [n=wells@xdslfk249.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:43:08 sanxiyn: Yeah, you should Just Use Emacs (tm) 12:43:31 herbieB: Not Eclipse? =3 12:44:15 sanxiyn: I use eclim anyway for java dev, it would be rather weird for me to use emacs for lisp dev :P 12:44:36 Adlaai, pjb: Bad news is, that just pops up "Process inferior-lisp interrupt" and loses contact :( 12:45:08 herbieB: Seems like you made good progress. If I remember, I'll blog about it so planet.lisp readers will be aware of it. Hopefully it'll get you some traction. 12:45:13 Modius: I think C-c C-b is also supposed to do a break in SLIME, if you still default bindings. 12:45:41 tcr: Thanks :) I probably won't start actually promoting it until I have decent debug/inspection support. 12:45:45 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:46:05 Well, what does currently happen on error? 12:46:16 You break into the implementation's debugger? 12:46:19 It boots up a subwindow where you can choose the restart. 12:46:27 does it show frames? 12:46:30 Yes 12:47:00 Adlai: C-c C-b does nothing but beep. I'll wait for someone to be around on #ccl I guess, this may be CCL specific 12:47:04 But I want eclipse style breakpoitns and break-on-error support with hooks into the code. 12:47:28 Modius: I use CCL + SLIME, and C-c C-c works for me. 12:47:44 herbieB: Oh you don't really need that, as there's BREAK 12:47:44 -!- hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit ["leaving"] 12:48:14 tcr: Yes, but I would prefer you not to have to litter your lisp code with (break), and to be able to intelligently give you frame inforamtion, variable information, and stepping support. 12:48:24 herbieB: And if you use swank-backend (not the actual swank server, just the portability layer), you'll probably be able to support all current implementations 12:48:25 tcr: There's also the annoyance that (break) sets *debugger-hook* to nil. 12:49:01 Adlai: May be a win32 version thing. 12:49:36 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.7.237] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:50:11 Modius: that could be it. I just tried at my 12:50:32 tried at my SLIME, and it lets me continue execution or a bunch of other restarts. 12:50:44 -!- okflo` [n=user@91-115-93-189.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:53:29 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1CC06.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:53:40 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1CC06.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:07 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1CC06.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:54:18 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1CC06.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:47 -!- prip_ [n=_prip@host49-195-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:56:42 herbieB: yes, there's swank-backend:call-with-debugger-hook, and swank-backend::call-with-debugging-environment which uses implementation defined machinery to overcome that restriction 12:58:29 Adlai: Yeah, I get to see that when running command-line, just not from slime 13:00:06 Modius: What does C-c normally do in a process running on the command-line in Windows? 13:00:39 tcr: Hit it once, it drops to another interactive line - second time, breaks with restart options 13:01:03 I mean what does it do? On Unix, it'll send the process a SIGINT. 13:01:14 Which is also what Slime does if the backend does not use threads 13:01:25 tcr: Windows doesn't have a real command line... it's got cmd.exe which is a pathetic excuse for *** one, and then there's the powershell, but that's not standard. 13:01:38 uh oh looks like my ERC hack malfunctioned there. sorry. 13:01:44 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.10.15] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:01:52 In windows command line prompt it just drops to a new line. I'm not sure C-c has any bearing on the OS 13:02:40 nyef, or p_l can probably answer. 13:03:00 vandemar [n=anon@2001:470:1f10:56b:0:0:0:4] has joined #lisp 13:05:16 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["Restarting emacs..."] 13:06:32 adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:06:53 -!- adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:09:23 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.144.45.150] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:11:17 -!- bt [n=user@209-20-77-179.slicehost.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:12:02 prip_ [n=_prip@host175-122-dynamic.32-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:12:47 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:12:53 -!- prip_ is now known as prip 13:13:13 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Client Quit] 13:14:02 it starts a new thread and calls a user-specified function in that thread AFAIK 13:16:22 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:18:14 *Adlai* tries out his new hack in the hope of a successful experiment, wondering how it will turn out. Will this work? 13:19:28 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-241-91.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:22:04 I wish people wouldn't subsitute 'real' for 'my prefered kind of' 13:22:05 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:54 *Xach* is glad My Prefered Kind Of Player is no longer a common requirement for internet media 13:26:27 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 13:26:38 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-241-91.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:52 What happened to My Preferred Kind Of Player? 13:28:45 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.7.237] has joined #lisp 13:28:50 -!- jao [n=jao@76.Red-88-18-100.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:30:13 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:31:13 Kickaha [n=user@43.66.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 13:34:00 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:43:22 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:43:38 Everyone started preferring Flash. 13:44:26 aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host68-103-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:44:45 -!- aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host68-103-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left #lisp 13:45:03 from a monoculture to a monoculture 13:46:06 i guess codecs are still hard to implement, ridden with licensing issues and that due to these issues, its just easier not to co-operate - there can only be one 13:46:29 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 13:48:21