00:00:25 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:00:27 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:03:52 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:07:04 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-111.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:08:08 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 00:08:57 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 00:10:31 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@host-66-235-80-184.warpspeed1.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:10:35 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-54-188.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:16:09 Demosthenes [n=demo@host-66-235-80-184.warpspeed1.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:57 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 00:17:04 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [""In other words, I'm right. I'm always right, but sometimes I'm more right than other times. And dammit, when I say "files do] 00:20:58 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:22:06 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 00:22:45 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:23:09 -!- schoppenhauer_ [n=css@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 00:29:48 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 00:31:16 leo2007 pasted "inline warning" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84106 00:31:45 leo2007: where's the warning? 00:32:28 leo2007 annotated #84106 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84106#1 00:32:46 Adlai: #1 00:32:46 leo2007, memo from tmh: assert-sigfig-equal is working for my tests, I'll get it submitted to the public git repository later tonight. 00:33:03 tmh: excellent 00:33:07 shifting right and testing the first bit is probably preferable to logbitp. 00:34:32 leo2007: paste the compiler's full output 00:34:37 pkhuong: how to test the first bit? 00:36:04 leo2007 annotated #84106 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84106#2 00:36:13 pkhuong: #2 00:37:39 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:38:17 leo2007: is the error coming from compiling that defun? or is it coming from a call to the function? 00:39:00 compiling, I guess 00:41:08 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:08 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 00:41:08 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 00:42:09 -!- kmels-noesta [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has left #lisp 00:42:27 leo2007: do you have anything else related to that function, say, a type declaim? 00:42:56 no 00:43:34 the return value of that function is < 30 00:43:46 leo2007: I can't reproduce that error in my Lisp. 00:44:37 It seems as though you've declared it's type somewhere else, and Lisp is expecting the return value to be an integer. 00:44:43 can't reproduce, then. 00:45:22 wait 00:45:43 leo2007: that function is supposed to always return an integer? 00:46:00 yes 00:46:02 b/c it would return a NIL if you give it (2^N)-1 00:46:18 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:46:19 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:19 hm 00:46:24 leo2007: that's not true, but it shouldn't matter since you never declared the return type. 00:46:39 wait, nvm. 00:47:14 pkhuong: i think it is true, the ind goes one longer than the integer-length of N 00:47:59 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:48:24 that function is going to be called a few million times 00:48:28 leo2007: it's certainly false. (integer-length -1) is finite, but every bit of that number is set. 00:51:16 pkhuong: your idea to use ash and test the first bit, do you mean using oddp? 00:52:44 sure. You seem to know for sure that the input is a machine-sized positive integer. Declaring that would already help. If that function really matters for performance, you could try coding something that tests a couple bits (say a nybble or a byte) at a time, or just use the x86 instruction. 00:54:45 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:54:54 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:20 pkhuong: actually it is because I don't know how to handle negative number, I'd love to make it work with negative numbers too 00:56:27 The operation doesn't make sense for negative numbers. I've already pointed out the problem with -1. 00:56:44 ok, I'll add a declare clause 00:57:55 You still have a problem that no one can reproduce, likely because you don't understand code you've written yourself. A declare might make the warning go away, but that would be a purely accidental side-effect. 00:59:04 markmsc [n=user@74.196.13.35] has joined #lisp 00:59:55 would it help if I post the whole file? 01:01:19 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:01:49 at the moment the performance is too slow 01:01:53 leo2007: it could. Obviously, the error that you pasted is coming from outside the forms that you pasted. 01:03:16 it is only 1400 lines but too large for lisppaste 01:03:17 You've received a huge amount of hand-holding by many people. I suggest taking a break to figure things out yourself from the hints you have already received. 01:04:42 http://pastebin.ca/1505130 01:06:50 pkhuong, how would one go about using the x86 insn `bsf' inline in SBCL? 01:07:39 Um, is it intentional that the SBCL source tree is full of Mac OS X quarantine files? 01:09:04 Eh? CVS or tarball? And what do you mean, .DS_Store or ._* or what? 01:09:05 That is, the tarball that I found at . 01:09:10 kpreid, the latter. 01:09:15 Riastradh:tarball, yeah, there has been a couple accidents. 01:09:52 ilitirit: (defknown bsf ...) (define-vop (bsf) (:translate bsf) ...) (defun bsf (x) (declare ...) (bsf x)). 01:11:01 Riastradh: "quarantine" is a particular extended attribute, I advise not using that terminology 01:11:56 kpreid, OK. I looked at the file and the only meaningful text, aside from an application name, was the quarantine attribute name. 01:12:04 Ah, I see. 01:12:08 I don't know how it works except that it baffled me the first time I encountered it. 01:12:10 It might be lispier to extend bsf to arbitrary positive integers, but doing so increases the odds of silently degrading performance; always-translatable is a nice sanity check that way. 01:12:21 ._ files are "Everything not built into other platforms' filesystems" files 01:12:21 pkhuong: you probably is right but in terms of tweaking the performance there are not too few documents on it 01:12:35 Quarantine is basically like Perl's taint bit. 01:12:58 leo2007: Most of the help you received was not platform or even language -specific. 01:13:04 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 01:13:14 That is, it marks incoming data as 'not trusted' 01:13:22 leo2007: I get a similar error to the one you pasted when I include that commented-out declaration above the function. 01:13:41 Try restarting your Lisp and recompiling with that declaration commented out. 01:14:10 or just unintern the function's name and recompile the whole file. 01:14:13 If you had compiled that declaration, commented it out, and recompiled without restarting the Lisp, then that declaration would still be in effect. 01:18:12 Adlai: no, I commented it out all the time and restart lisp 01:18:25 always 01:18:43 did you see the warning with the ftype declaim commented out? 01:18:48 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-17051a350aa84ac2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:19:41 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 01:20:32 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:20:42 -!- jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:23:13 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:24:55 jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 01:26:54 fvw_ [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 01:27:38 Adlai: after make sure loop return integer the warning is gone 01:28:55 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.240.127] has joined #lisp 01:31:44 kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:33:28 There might be faster ways of finding the rightmost zero bit. (logand (lognot x) (+ x 1)) is one possibility. The result is a 1 bit where the rightmost zero bit was located. (integer-length result) gives the index. May or may not be faster than logbitp loop. 01:33:55 (Look up Hacker's Delight for more cool bit twiddling stuff.) 01:34:24 -!- fvw_ [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit ["leaving"] 01:34:33 rtoym: thanks 01:37:24 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-112-40.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:44 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:38:25 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:39:21 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:39:22 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:07 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-33-103.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:44:48 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-98-207-156-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:45:39 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.128.148] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:46:32 Anyone care to update the SBCL binary for NetBSD/x86 from ? 01:48:58 I'm afraid I don't understand how that works. I've made a note with that URL for when I'll see someone competent online. 01:49:47 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:50:55 I think chandler might know what to do -- he's the one to whom I directed the PowerPC binaries you see there. 01:55:33 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.240.127] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:55:33 -!- schmx [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:55:53 schmx [n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 01:56:32 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.139.93] has joined #lisp 02:02:37 -!- blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:07:29 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:08:03 -!- kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 02:08:51 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:12:40 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:15:45 chavo_ [n=user@c-76-17-212-158.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:17 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:21:34 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 02:22:55 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:10 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit [Client Quit] 02:27:15 NorthStar [n=email@89-180-141-165.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 02:30:17 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 02:31:16 wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-4db433b9.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 02:33:18 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.164.181] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:34:05 jlf [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-82.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 02:34:43 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-127-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:58 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:04 -!- NorthStar is now known as TR2N 02:36:52 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-157.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 02:41:33 gko [n=Keca@116.59.163.227] has joined #lisp 02:44:23 -!- wakeup_vanuber [n=wakeup@koln-5d815ccb.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:44:35 gh7d395pi69wd [n=asdf@unaffiliated/gh7d395pi69wd] has joined #lisp 02:49:08 dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f704a44.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 02:51:39 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:52:01 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 02:56:20 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-76-17-212-158.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:59:50 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-152-243.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:59:52 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-158-24.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:00:18 -!- markmsc [n=user@74.196.13.35] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:00:54 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dfedc7484c419713] has joined #lisp 03:02:56 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f706bfe.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [No route to host] 03:03:05 jchicas [n=jchicas@137smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 03:03:09 How can I get SLIME to load the REPL in paredit? 03:03:54 I tried adding a hook to 'repl-mode-hook but that doesn't seem to work. 03:03:56 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@137smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit [Client Quit] 03:04:41 markmsc [n=user@74.196.13.35] has joined #lisp 03:05:02 -!- konr [n=konrad@189.96.105.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:05:06 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:35 -!- chessguy_work is now known as chessguy 03:06:11 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.7.237] has joined #lisp 03:07:49 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.1/20090715083437]"] 03:10:18 (add-hook 'slime-repl-mode-hook (lambda () (paredit-mode +1))) 03:10:40 tmh: thanks 03:10:42 Adlai: Be careful, it takes some adjustment to use paredit in the REPL 03:10:51 pizdets [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:12 as in, it's confusing, or as in, tinkering with the elisp? 03:11:57 Adlai: It is confusing because when you hit enter, expecting a new line, it sends the form to the lisp process. 03:12:00 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:12:05 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- markmsc [n=user@74.196.13.35] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-69-221-252-243.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@ppp-70-253-87-206.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- hdurer [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-680b263bdfae315a] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.107.70] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-207-110.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- azuk` [i=azure@s2.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- sepisultrum [n=enigma@hcl-club.lu] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- _3b` [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:20 -!- pizdets is now known as pizzledizzle 03:12:42 hm, good point. I hadn't thought of that. 03:12:57 markmsc [n=user@74.196.13.35] has joined #lisp 03:12:57 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 03:12:57 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 03:12:57 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-69-221-252-243.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:57 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:57 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 03:12:57 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 03:12:57 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 03:12:57 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 03:12:57 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 03:12:57 alexbobp [n=alex@ppp-70-253-87-206.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:57 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:57 hdurer [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-680b263bdfae315a] has joined #lisp 03:12:57 koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.107.70] has joined #lisp 03:12:57 Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-207-110.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:57 lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 03:12:57 sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 03:12:57 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:57 Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 03:12:57 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 03:12:57 guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 03:12:57 _3b` [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:12:57 sepisultrum [n=enigma@hcl-club.lu] has joined #lisp 03:12:57 azuk` [i=azure@s2.org] has joined #lisp 03:13:04 I could rebind C- to the command that sends the form 03:13:13 Adlai: Alt-j works 03:13:41 M-j is awful for dvorak, though. 03:14:02 Heh, it's not too great for qwerty, either. 03:15:34 What's wrong with it in qwerty? Looks like it should be fine. 03:17:01 if you're one of those weirdos that use your right hand meta key, then sure 03:17:52 I guess it depends what your Meta key is, but pressing the left Alt and qwerty j seems pretty easy to me. 03:18:06 It's simply annoying that I have to chord something to get a newline. 03:18:43 I'd rather chord for sending to the repl, because I often have multiline commands. 03:19:04 Adlai: Ditto 03:19:09 C-[ is my Meta. 03:19:44 sellout: on purpose? isn't that a bit pita? 03:20:10 Adlai: I don't even notice it anymore. 03:20:15 there's one in every crowd. 03:20:40 I have a kinesis keyboard, Ctrl, Alt, enter, space, backspace, delete, etc. are under my thunbs, so chording is not as annoying as on a regular keyboard, but it still gets old for certain commands. 03:20:44 rme: It'd be nice if that worked in the IDE, since I use Option for Unicode ;) 03:20:49 s/thunbs/thumbs/ 03:20:52 tmh: me too :) 03:21:19 -!- sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has quit 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I'm on my second, the first lasted 10 years and even survived being submersed in water when we had a water leak in our house. 03:23:45 -!- jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:23:58 jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 03:24:03 Wish me luck, I'm getting ready to do a git reset, I'm such a flunky when it comes to using git. 03:24:49 I've found that taking a bit of time to learn "git theory" really helps... reset works in fairly predictable ways. 03:25:19 But good luck either way :> 03:25:21 :) 03:25:50 -!- gko [n=Keca@116.59.163.227] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:26:23 -!- dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f704a44.pool.einsundeins.de] has left #lisp 03:26:42 Well, seems to have worked. 03:26:55 Did you have any uncommitted changes? 03:27:20 Someone ... Nikodemus maybe ... had a series of blog posts on understanding git. 03:28:10 dno 03:28:14 hmm, oops. 03:29:02 Adlai: That was why I needed to reset, I forgot to add the changes. I was trying to use git through emacs. I think I'll focus on learning the command line before I screw it up with 1 degree of separation. 03:30:55 tmh: I've found so far that the "git " commands are a better interface to git than either "git gui" or "git cola" 03:31:00 What's the emacs interface though? 03:31:09 worst case, you keep a diff around. that, or commit everything first; reflog is awesome to undo just about anything. 03:32:54 peddie [n=matthew@67.169.49.37] has joined #lisp 03:33:08 *Adlai* compulsively calls "git status" before doing any git commants 03:36:39 sellout: http://trac.clozure.com/openmcl/changeset/12436 03:37:25 rme: Wow, impressive service! 03:37:50 anyone know of an algorithm to implement a parallel assignment with the minimum number of temporaries? 03:38:11 c|mell [n=cmell@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 03:38:12 slava: for numbers, you can do it with no temporaries. 03:38:17 (I think) 03:38:31 Adlai: in that case there's still the question of minimizing the number of exchange operations 03:38:38 tmh: what sort of keyswitches? 03:39:02 Adlai: also I believe in both cases the difficult part is identifying cycles and once that's done the rest is relatively simple 03:40:18 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dfedc7484c419713] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:41:22 slava: Hmm, I don't see where you get cycles in a parallel assignment. 03:41:40 Zhivago: (psetq a b b a) 03:41:43 Can't you just produce it as a dependency graph and then find the shortest linear path? 03:42:15 Well, those aren't cycles. 03:43:56 so how would you implement psetq with the minimum number of temporaries? 03:47:42 -!- peddie_ [n=matthew@67.169.49.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:49:27 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:49:35 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-2568961daa34f9c2] has joined #lisp 03:53:32 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:53:35 If you consider it as having four variables a, b, a', b', then you build the dependency graph a <- b', b <- 'a. We have a constraint that x can't appear in a path after x'. If we produce a path which requires this, then we introduce a temporary before the first x' and depend on that instead. 03:54:11 So something like a <- 'b, b <- 'a becomes b'' <- b', a <- 'b, b'' <- a' 03:55:06 It you allow cycles to be expressed in the graph, then you can't differentiate between depending on different versions of the variable, which means you can't mix in sequential dependencies as well. 03:56:41 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-145-107.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:17 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:57:18 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:57:28 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:57:38 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 03:58:19 slava: right, I think you just have to normalise the permutation to a set of cycles (as we learn in algebra) and execute the cycles as exchanges. 03:58:42 I actually found an algorithm in a paper 03:58:43 Assuming this is for phi functions (: 03:58:48 http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/34/99/25/PDF/OutSSA-RR.pdf 03:58:55 this is for something else, but its the same problem as for phi functions 04:01:26 -!- p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:04:04 If you allow swaps, you get worst case n operations and 0 temporaries for n variables. I think that's fairly clearly optimal. 04:04:08 Adamant_ [n=Adamant@66.213.192.210] has joined #lisp 04:04:22 pizdets [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:53 Well, if your swaps don't require a temporary. :) 04:04:57 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 04:05:29 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 04:05:40 Zhivago: when I worry about the number temporaries they don't. 04:06:03 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:06:22 -!- pizdets is now known as pizzledizzle 04:07:32 'Git for the lazy' -> tmh 04:12:35 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:55 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit ["leaving"] 04:19:35 'Git for Darcs Users' -> tmh 04:20:02 minion, memo for nyef: git://git.feelingofgreen.ru/lh-usb adds a port to CFFI, move from usbfs to sysfs and a couple more functions. 04:20:02 Remembered. I'll tell nyef when he/she/it next speaks. 04:24:36 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:26:48 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:28:47 minion: memo for leo2007: The assert-sigfig-equal now works on float, list, vector and array arguments. But, it is in the expanded-interface branch of lisp-unit. You *must* be in the expanded-interface branch to use the new assert-sigfig-equal. 04:28:47 Remembered. I'll tell leo2007 when he/she/it next speaks. 04:31:14 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 04:35:28 slava: so, even with copies, I think you can just use worklist scheduler to take care of all the non-circular assignments; once all the assignments that can be expressed as moves have been emitted, you have to use exchanges (or dead variables as temporaries) to execute the cycles. 04:35:49 yeah, that's pretty much what I ended up implementation 04:35:51 implementing 04:38:48 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 04:40:14 Is there a git repository for CCL? 04:41:01 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit [Client Quit] 04:41:32 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-194.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:42:02 joswig [n=joswig@e177157231.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 04:45:41 deepfire: only SVN, afaik 04:51:36 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:52:30 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177157185.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:59:02 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:59:25 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:00:35 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:01:59 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 05:02:36 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 05:07:36 argleblarg. 05:07:38 I want my lisp shell. 05:08:06 (loop while t do (mplayer (random-elt (ls "./")))) 05:12:04 Ralith: http://clisp.cons.org/clash.html 05:12:10 seeing as mplayer already has a -shuffle argument this example is a little unfortunate :) -- also you can omit the "while t do" 05:12:19 oh, didn't know that. 05:12:39 http://dan.corlan.net/shelisp/ 05:12:44 also -shuffle doesn't change the fact that I'm thinking of my scripting tasks in lisp lately (although it is good to know, thanks) 05:12:48 tmh: will peruse, thanks! 05:13:59 Finally, if you wish to roll your own, there's trivial shell -> http://common-lisp.net/project/trivial-shell/ 05:15:25 *ilitirit* also wants lisp scripting in the shell -- but i don't want to have to type a lot of brackets just to run a program :) 05:15:40 well techincally you shouldn't 05:15:49 ilitirit: yes, there are some usability tweaks one would have to make to a pure REPL. 05:15:52 just like you don't haveto write curly braces for bash 05:16:05 for example is shelisp, to run ls you have to type !ls 05:16:16 just call functions with arguments 05:16:28 I don't see any problem with mapping everything in path into functions. 05:16:37 yeah that would be great Ralith 05:17:08 naming conflicts could be resolved just by doing cl:conflicted-thing, right? 05:17:08 well the command line interface has to be remembered that it is an interface afterall 05:17:32 doing (this (that (that))) is not really usefull for common repeatable tasks that belong as programs 05:17:50 the cli shouldn't be the repl but something specialised for doing command line stuff (and use readline) 05:18:01 right 05:18:14 the idea of using emacs as a shell isn't a bad idea 05:18:26 pkhuong: turns out my approach doesn't work if one source has multiple destinations... 05:18:35 eg a <- b; c <- b 05:20:53 holycow: yeah, that's what defun's for ^^ 05:21:39 go on Ralith, if you make a shell i will try it out 05:21:51 heh 05:21:57 haven't checked if any of the above three are what I want yet :P 05:22:27 I'd want to integrate paredit-like functionality, too 05:22:40 -!- jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:22:49 Ralith: They're probably not, those were just to give you some ideas. 05:23:05 kk 05:23:16 Ralith: why not consider extending climacs? 05:23:33 holycow: because a shell shouldn't depend on all that. 05:23:35 technically when i startup nano/vi/emacs in a shell i'm simply extending the shell 05:23:35 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:37 first just get it to run programs and pipelines without special syntax - i.e. no !ls for ls, and then bolt on the ability to use lisp when you see "(" 05:23:57 Ralith: except that a shell isn't just for passing around arguments 05:24:03 it simply pretends its that 05:24:09 I'm thinking map programs onto functions, and consider the outermost parens to be implicit 05:24:12 you can easily run bash scripts from the single line 05:24:28 i don't see why one cant extend the shell to have a built in 'editor' mode 05:24:38 holycow: because that's an editor's job 05:24:41 unix philosophy, etc. 05:24:59 not trying to convince you anyway :) just tossing some ideas around 05:25:57 yeah 05:26:30 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-218-59.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:21 Good morning. 05:31:37 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:32:47 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:36:25 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-79-16.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:38:35 jchicas [n=jchicas@137smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 05:39:47 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 05:39:48 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["off"] 05:39:55 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@137smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit [Client Quit] 05:43:39 howdy beach 05:45:10 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 05:46:16 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 05:46:58 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-2568961daa34f9c2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:49:03 hm 05:49:38 holycow: one thing without an immideately obvious solution is piping; overriding > and < gets rid of a rather handy operator. 05:51:34 -!- TR2N [n=email@89-180-141-165.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 05:51:48 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:52:36 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:53:01 good point 05:53:03 splittist [n=dmurray@87-42.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 05:53:06 morning 05:54:24 holycow: perhaps using { and } for redirection would be appropriate? 05:54:30 you have to press shift for <> anyway 05:54:36 -!- Adamant_ [n=Adamant@66.213.192.210] has quit [] 05:54:36 ohgod no 05:54:39 ilitirit annotated #84039 "ccl before 1.4 with logandc1 as a compiler-macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84039#3 05:54:41 why not? 05:54:50 it just seems ugly to me 05:54:57 -> is fine 05:55:18 or just re-use bash | 05:55:28 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@76.122.37.30] has quit ["I'm off!"] 05:55:48 not sure if there is syntatic problems with using either in lisp tho 05:56:06 holycow: | and < and > are all very different things... 05:56:27 girzel [n=user@61.51.239.109] has joined #lisp 05:58:04 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 05:59:05 holycow: you can't swap them out. 05:59:45 if you want to keep the shell pure lisp capable, i imagine this is a difficult problem to solve 06:00:07 not terribly 06:00:12 just need to pick an appropriate symbol. 06:00:18 -> and <- seems reasonable to me. 06:00:28 i agree with that 06:00:30 its pretty 06:00:37 curlies are so fugly 06:00:38 I *think* | is a legal CL symbol. Anybody know otherwise? 06:00:43 rstandy` [n=rastandy@93.144.37.28] has joined #lisp 06:00:52 they totally break a line visually 06:00:58 it's like stabbing someone in the face 06:00:59 :) 06:01:07 heh 06:01:08 Ralith: (defvar \| 10) 06:01:16 Zhivago: it has to be escaped? :| 06:01:30 whyzat? 06:01:32 -> is used in a number of languages, it is self explanatory 06:01:36 and easy to type as well 06:01:43 Ralith: it's an escape character 06:01:44 Ralith: (defvar |escape| 10) 06:01:47 oooh. 06:01:48 right. 06:01:51 damn. 06:02:08 (symbol-name '|escape|) => "escape" 06:02:13 yeah, I remember now 06:02:28 that's interesting. 06:02:33 *Adlai* just finished reading the log of this lisp-shell discussion, and likes the idea. 06:02:36 || is a valid symbol, even though it's technically null. 06:02:49 Ralith: it's not null, it's just got a symbol-name of "" 06:02:57 okay, relatively null :P 06:03:05 you could have cl-user:||, ralith-package:||, etc 06:03:07 :D 06:03:07 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:03:15 nameless. 06:03:24 you-know-which. 06:03:25 -!- dmiles [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:04:16 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:04:56 I don't think the shell should be a REPL; look at bash and zsh, they're not C compilers. 06:05:01 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-39-178.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:07:28 The shell is a repl. 06:07:52 It's a repl for shellscript. 06:07:55 indeed. 06:08:00 bash and zsh script aren't C. 06:08:21 I believe that, sufficiently tweaked, CL could be concise enough to be appropriate here, though. 06:08:23 Good point. 06:08:46 yeah, I guess we need a "clsh" shell-script based on CL 06:08:50 with some reader macros :) 06:09:01 this reminds me of why tcl was invented 06:09:05 to be embedded in other apps 06:09:07 :) 06:09:08 guaqua: actually, I can't think of anything that needs a reader macro... 06:09:25 holycow: and then lua 06:09:28 er, wait, yes I can 06:09:29 and then javascript 06:09:31 Well, what I'm unsure of is whether we need clsh to have #'compile, for example. 06:09:32 or the other way around 06:09:33 or maybe. 06:09:49 i think wanting a sufficiently proper clisp support in a shell effectively means a repl interaction 06:09:50 I haven't actually thought about how various things will be implemented past the point that they're practical. 06:09:57 I don't think that CL is a very good choice for shellscript. 06:09:57 holycow: indeed. 06:09:59 Adlai: why not? 06:10:06 Zhivago: well, I'd like to find out! 06:10:12 See scsh. 06:10:24 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-112-40.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:10:27 There are a couple of fairly obvious reasons as to why it is a poor choice. 06:10:41 go on. 06:10:44 Ralith: because for that, you'd run a compiler program. 06:10:58 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 06:11:06 I've been assuming that this is gonna be a shell for a Unix-y system. 06:11:13 i'm not convinced that its not beyond the fact it can do anything 06:11:13 (run "ls" "*") doesn't seem very compelling compared to ls *. 06:11:25 Zhivago: well would you really haveto do that? 06:11:27 The default quoting that lisp uses isn't very suitable for shell. 06:11:33 wouldn't ls just be a function and * an argument? 06:11:38 ^ 06:11:39 Zhivago: yes, the idea is that this would be a DSL 06:11:45 ^ 06:11:53 raw, unadulterated CL would indeed kind of suck. 06:11:54 surely a lisp shell is little more than a lisp application that passes arguments amongst apps and allows access to repl 06:12:04 i'd say just replace the sh shell keywords with lisp-compatible ones and enable lisp inside control structures 06:12:22 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:12:33 and should you need to write a script ... well cl can fit quite well for all of that 06:12:41 guaqua: what do you mean "shell keywords"? 06:12:50 its not like i haven't seen people write substantial applications in things like tcl that werent designed to do things like that 06:13:43 so instead of reinventing yet another scripting language, we simply provide a 'shell' which is little more than a comfort zone for passing arguments between apps in a simplified syntax of some sort 06:13:47 well, for example when there's if, instead of if [ -z "$VAR" ] you'd do if (nilp var) etc 06:14:01 etc 06:14:32 guaqua: actually, nilp wouldn't need to be in parens 06:14:32 you *know* that it only takes one argument 06:15:33 but you don't know whether you're passing the value of nilp or calling it as a function unless the parens are there. 06:15:35 and by 'we' i mean YOU Ralith 06:15:36 hehehe 06:15:38 :) 06:15:38 ^^ 06:15:40 I don't mind. 06:15:40 well, insert any arbitrarily huge pile of parentheses there 06:16:04 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:16:18 a readline modified for intelligent (based on emacs+paredit) paren handling would be a must, certainly. 06:16:26 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:16:36 heh 06:16:37 so 06:16:41 if we think about this for a sec 06:16:51 it's possible to leave out parens around single-argument functions, and still have an unambiguous syntax 06:16:57 this 'shell' being a lisp app to pass functions and arguments between apps 06:16:59 can run standalone 06:17:00 Adlai: not in a lisp-2 06:17:00 or 06:17:05 be an extension to emacs 06:17:16 much like the shell extension it already has 06:17:20 holycow: er, no, I'm def. not coding an extension to emacs. 06:17:21 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:17:33 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 06:17:33 thus you go from poor environment -> rich environment whenever you want 06:17:38 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:17:40 Ralith: :) just tossing ideas around 06:17:55 climacs would be better suited, just using emacs as an example 06:17:56 a standalone app is core to what I want. 06:18:02 Well, then you're implementing a shellscript in lisp. 06:18:12 Zhivago: yes, and ideally tying it as closely to lisp as possible. 06:18:30 Well, at least you're trying to solve the right problem now -- good luck. :) 06:18:31 i don't think one wants to invent another shell scripting language via lisp 06:18:38 thanks! 06:18:49 holycow: well, technically this would be one. 06:18:56 just a very simple one, which offloads most of the work onto the backing lisp. 06:18:58 I'd actually suggest that the unix shell is mostly right, and you should base it on linear combinators. 06:19:10 Ralith: I think you need to decide whether you're writing clsh for *NIX, or sh for a Lisp Machine 06:19:21 unix shells *are* good, and I'm not working on this because I think they need to be replaced so much as for the sake of experimentation. 06:19:27 Treating functions (programs) as stream transforms. 06:19:27 Zhivago: how do you feel about windows monand and how its object oriented, whatever the hell that means in a shell? 06:19:44 Ralith: i think thats the right attitude my self 06:19:48 Zhivago: hm, I'm not sure how to go about doing that lispily. 06:20:24 if this is just a shell for a unix, then it should be a shell, not an implementation of ANSI CL 06:20:27 I think if I can get something that even approaches being as convenient bash or zsh then I've succeeded. 06:20:32 robyonrails [n=roby@host101-176-dynamic.51-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 06:20:37 Adlai: it goes *on top of* CL :P 06:20:40 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:20:48 and CL code can be trivially used inline. 06:20:51 Ralith: have you looked at what already might exist? 06:21:12 holycow: tmh dropped a few links on that note earlier, and I've scoped out scsh before. 06:21:13 heads up that stumpwm has a shell of sorts in latest release. i haven't had time to play but its an attempt anyway 06:21:16 nothing took it very far. 06:21:19 Ralith: then it's a shell for a Lisp Machine that speaks CL 06:21:29 Adlai: call it what you like. *shrug* 06:21:51 well don't we want a kernel plus all the plumbing in cl eventually anyway? 06:21:51 holycow: it's just an interactive prompt for stump commands. 06:21:52 nothing new 06:21:52 hehehehe 06:21:54 :) 06:22:04 oh really? aha, neat 06:22:20 handy for extensive WM hackery but not much else 06:22:24 Ralith: the problem is that a Unix shell isn't supposed to be an ANSI CL REPL _or_ a C compiler, it's supposed to be a literal shell over the kernel. 06:22:44 Adlai: again, shellscript isn't C :P 06:22:54 Ralith: exactly. clsh shouldn't be CL either 06:23:01 Adlai: what does 'literal shell' mean? 06:23:09 I'm talking about putting together a shellscript that is a superset of CL optimized for shellishness. 06:23:16 given bash, its a mix of a bunch of ideas. i don't see a clear distinction 06:23:20 I don't really care what shells are "supposed to be" 06:23:20 :P 06:23:38 It gives you access to using the computer but protects the kernel from you doing something stupid. 06:24:07 in that sense x is a shell and so is a gesture interface 06:24:21 Ralith: something that I think would be very useful would be a DSL for frobbing *NIX stuff in CL. 06:24:37 it seems as though that is what you're trying to design, right? 06:24:45 from what i understand of lisp, there being no difference between code and data, there really is no difference between the shell and the rest of the system ... but i digress :) 06:24:50 Adlai: basically, except with the added qualification that it's nice to use interactively. 06:25:18 Ralith: ofc! Look at how much SLIME wins over IRB. That is a *must*. 06:25:24 IRB? 06:25:27 O.o 06:25:32 oh, interactive ruby? 06:25:33 Interactive Ruby. 06:25:38 ^^ 06:25:42 or the python shell 06:25:47 Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:25:49 I think Zhivago revealed a good point, though 06:25:52 guaqua: I wasn't even gonna go there. 06:26:15 I shouldn't just take lisp and hack in support for launching programs and redirecting their output a la bash. 06:26:17 i think a cl shell + climacs + slime for climacs would be a heavyweight :) 06:26:21 ehe 06:26:26 Ralith: yes, there's not a whole lot that needs to be improved upon. 06:26:29 ideally, the whole stream transformation thing would be abstract enough to use within the shellscript as well as outside of it. 06:27:07 except I'm not yet familiar enough with streams to be able to come up with an elegant, concise way of doing that >:/ 06:27:12 Ralith: i'd go for that 06:27:15 What about making this be a bit like the *ML libraries? 06:27:22 Adlai: as I said before, not a matter of improving things; just experimenting. 06:27:24 Ralith: i'd love to use something like that 06:27:26 if it comes out better, wonderful! 06:27:30 holycow: any idea how it'd work? 06:27:31 ie, you just have a 'clsh macro 06:27:35 I barely understand streams in the first place >_> 06:27:53 Adlai: and the interactive shell would be implicitly wrapped in it? Yeah, something along those lines. 06:27:54 Ralith: nope 06:28:12 Ralith: well, the interactive shell would be a repl that wrapped your input in a call to clsh. 06:28:18 yes. 06:28:20 that's the idea. 06:29:13 Ralith: wanna start working on this *now*? 06:29:26 kindasorta. 06:29:33 working on something related to my rapid prototyper atm but I am distractible. 06:29:47 I agree with that statement 06:30:00 also there's the streamy design issue 06:30:01 holycow: which ? 06:30:04 yours 06:30:29 thanks :) 06:30:43 Ah, that's why I couldn't find "monad" in the scrollback :p 06:30:52 its not an opinion worth much tho :) i'm just joining in and brainstorming 06:31:22 holycow: Well, I'm not sure how monad works exactly, but I like streams of objects. 06:31:27 holycow: as far as reputation goes, I think my opinion matters less than yours :D 06:31:50 oh heh, just wait 06:31:50 holycow: Having a shell translate an object into a message to a program it is running may be useful. 06:31:59 *hmmm* 06:32:11 holycow: Then you can 'print' a program, and then 'print' commands to it, and 'read' back output from it. 06:32:17 *Adlai* is lead (?) developer of Sykobot, and a small-time contributor to Sheeple. 06:32:20 right, interesting 06:32:45 i'm not even a programmer, just a scripter here and there 06:32:50 but i have realized why 06:33:08 Zhivago: you're talking about streams, not monads, right? 06:33:11 holycow: Personally, I think that dhtml is probably the best environment for a new shell. 06:33:15 lisp has made me realize that all the c like languages are plain wrong. my brain cannot comprehend the retared syntax 06:33:26 Adlai: Window's monad shell has nothing to do with monads. 06:33:55 Zhivago: no wonder I got confused just now. /me goes to read about monad. 06:34:05 C syntax is reasonable, apart from types. 06:34:12 dhtml? O.o 06:34:55 what's dhtml? minion can't tell me anything about it :| 06:35:16 javascript + css + html 06:35:50 i'm not sure i agree but ... then i am in #lisp and not #javascript for a reason :) 06:35:57 Zhivago: why build a new shell on web and markup technologies? or were you joking? 06:37:19 Adlai: I am not joking. 06:37:27 -!- jlf [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-82.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:37:34 Adlai: Because I believe that it is the best solution for the problem. 06:37:43 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 06:37:58 i don't see how 06:38:12 it requires a rendering engine of some sort like gecko to even run 06:38:21 holycow: html provides a structured display model which can be incrementally updated via a stream. 06:38:35 holycow: You can also render code into it, and execute it in the display. 06:38:42 hm, I think we're talking about different things 06:38:47 holycow: What more could you ask for? 06:39:03 structured that is based on shifting w3c standards which arent even supported 100% by a single vendor (even mozilla that makes 50 mil a year) 06:39:15 Nonsense. It's no-where near that bad these days. 06:39:32 true 06:39:33 i think the display issue is a separate layer from shell interaction 06:39:39 but we're not talking about the way that the shell displays output 06:39:43 it has gotten a lot better 06:40:04 if a program chooses to output valid strict xhtml, good for that program. 06:40:07 i think integrating somethign like that is usefull 06:40:18 I hope its output is being piped into a rendering engine. 06:40:21 dhtml approach will never replace something like qt4.5+ for example 06:40:38 but clsh doesn't need to care about whether or not you close your XML tags. 06:40:48 dhtml is simply a very poor interface abstraction, what will happen is exactly what is happening on the web 06:41:01 everyone tries to take something like html and make it do what it isn't designed to do 06:41:32 if you want a rendering layer, i say throw out the whole javascript+html+css thing and redo it from scratch 06:41:59 on top of a proper toolkit so you can get a poor presentation layer if you don't need all the power 06:42:03 or pull in the rest as you need 06:42:06 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:44:07 holycow: I predict that dhtml will completely destroy qt within 5 years. 06:44:45 So, in what regard is dhtml is poor interface abstraction? 06:45:12 I also predict that google-os will become the linux desktop. 06:45:27 it is one of the few standards. and it has better ui abstractions than most of the ui "toolkits" 06:46:05 i'd like to see anyone replicate qt5 with a dhtml + whatever render engine 06:46:14 they simply really arent even in the same category 06:46:19 in principle you are correct 06:46:19 is there something in qt5 to replicate? 06:46:30 why would i want to replicate all of it? 06:46:47 because, functionality is important? 06:47:09 Most of that functionality is a bad idea. 06:47:13 it doesn't reduce the amount of boiler-plate i have to write 06:47:24 well, when you write a photoshop in dhtml, come and talk to me 06:47:38 or a maya, or a highen end audio editor, etc. 06:47:42 i can go on and on 06:47:58 i'm not knocking dhtml for what it is, its fine for the job it does 06:48:04 i'm knocking it for what it isn't 06:48:17 What isn't it? 06:48:31 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dc077103369a8d1e] has joined #lisp 06:49:00 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:49:16 now i do want to say one thing 06:49:21 i'm not attacking you or the idea 06:49:33 There is a dhtml based photoshop-like system, iirc. 06:49:40 i'm simply saying we have parallel lines of thinking that don't cross 06:49:48 you may end up being right, i simply don't see it 06:49:55 I think it's mainly due to your prejudices. 06:50:13 when you write maya in ajax talk to me 06:50:18 that is ALL it comes down to 06:50:23 i've seen a raytracer done in dhtml 06:50:44 It all comes down to writing maya? 06:50:54 you seriously can't be this dense 06:50:56 Has maya been written in CL yet? 06:51:07 i'm REALLY trying hard to be generous and fair and not attack you 06:51:24 if i haveto explain that maya is an example of somethign that won't ever be written in dhtml then we may as well stop this thread 06:51:25 :) 06:51:34 Will maya ever be written in CL? 06:51:40 yes it actually was 06:51:42 i have a copy 06:51:45 its called mirai 06:52:05 infact 06:52:07 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:52:14 symoblics was one of the pioneers of all this 3d shit 06:52:24 out of which mirai eventually gained birth and then died 06:52:32 I think you need to look at avary.com 06:52:35 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest54630 06:52:38 oh god 06:52:48 -!- Guest54630 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 06:52:50 Most of your reasoning here is simply prejudice. 06:53:09 You haven't been able to supply any reasons as to why, just that it won't ever happen. 06:53:15 *holycow* watches his cpu spike to 100% just at that frickin splash page 06:53:20 oh yeah great example 06:53:28 all the image editors i've seen use flash 06:53:44 And why is it a problem to use flash as a component in dhtml? 06:53:48 they could aswell be written in javascript, really 06:54:01 sure, go right ahead 06:54:10 technically they can be written in bash 06:54:31 Yes, but happily they are being written for web interfaces. 06:54:33 no, really, the apis are there 06:54:46 uh no, no they aren't. they exist in bits and pieces 06:54:49 and they are quite standardised and ready 06:54:59 The canvas spec should simplify things a lot. 06:55:18 So, what are the actual reasons that all of this stuff that is being done can't ever be done? 06:55:25 up until the author realizes you can't do dick with them because performance sucks and you haveto shove a lot of yoru stuff into c component in a mozilla deployable application 06:55:29 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-162-201.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:55:31 because its too fucking slow 06:56:12 like i said, call me when you write a true highen professional app in dhtml. 06:56:14 Is that your only reason? 06:56:36 Do you believe that they will always remain too slow? 06:56:36 good morning 06:56:48 no, but it is the show stopper before you even begin yoru line of thinking 06:57:01 we have this lisp thingie. which is slow because it's garbage collected 06:57:09 there is no point in really even exploring further if the best you can do is shitty canvas javascript examples 06:57:24 so is java 06:57:25 holy: No, being too slow to do everything today is never a show-stopper. 06:57:28 so whats your point? 06:57:43 holy: There are plenty of things for which it isn't too slow today. And it will be faster tomorrow. 06:57:45 i HOPE you aren't comparing javascript performance to cl 06:58:08 V8 is pretty fast 06:58:19 holy: Why not? I expect that v8 will compete with many CL implementations. 06:58:20 Zhivago: the entire world is convinced that dhmtl is the way to go 06:58:24 happy coding 06:58:29 The entire world is right. 06:58:51 We finally have a fairly standardized way to build dynamic interfaces that enough people are actually using. 06:58:59 holycow: the main point is, you haven't introduced a single new thing to this conversation. you claim javascript is too slow. you claim the apis are not there (where you simply are wrong) and then from these assumptions resort to saying "why is no-one using it" 06:59:00 It's the unicode of uis. 06:59:16 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 06:59:22 We are comparing CL to C, so why couldn't they compare JavaScript to CL? 06:59:27 guaqua: i don't haveto. you claim dhtml is good enough, you are welcome to that claim. 06:59:36 slava: do you know if tracemonkey is anywhere close to v8? 06:59:39 you are free to be wrong 06:59:47 guaqua: no idea 06:59:54 afterall it is up to you to prove you can write said applications in dhtml 06:59:57 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:00:00 when you do i will happily say you are right 07:00:06 until then, you are living in a dreamworld 07:00:22 guaqua: I believe tracemonkey is competitive and even superior in some areas, or was last year. This year, I don't know. 07:01:06 I think that v8's native code generation was fairly stupid to start with. Hopefully it has improved. 07:01:29 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:01:34 There are even people translating python into javascript for performance improvements, these days. 07:02:12 newest ecmascripts are close to python, without the cpython libraries and whitespace 07:02:46 Most of the datatypes don't map well, but the control structures, sure. 07:03:02 true 07:03:56 even gnome is tossing the idea around of using webkit render engine 07:04:00 the world is going mad 07:04:01 lol 07:04:35 well, considering qt style sheets and all... 07:04:52 The world is just becoming sane. 07:05:19 nonsense, the asylum has let the inmates out and they are simply agreeing with each other 07:05:25 and thats cool, they are welcome to it 07:05:39 the majority is mostly wrong, that's true 07:06:54 the majority is mostly right, that's false 07:07:39 just because a bunch of php pecking morons agree with each other doesn't mean it makes them right 07:07:49 it just means they thing 'goto' is a good idea 07:07:54 what's wrong with people who use php? 07:08:19 heh, where do i start :) but i'm not mean, i'll leave them alone 07:08:24 They claim to be programmers and underbid on getacoder? 07:08:26 i'm guessing you haven't done much html lately 07:08:48 there isn't anything new in ecma that we haven't done in 2000 07:08:50 nothing 07:09:16 i've seen all the flash nonsense replicated in dhtml before any of you even knew that ajax was coined by a dipshit only 4 or 5 years ago 07:09:37 javascript is a proper c style programming language 07:09:48 there are web servers written in javascript 07:09:55 running still in enterprise envrionments 07:10:16 that means nothing, we aren't talking about the same things. 07:10:26 the point i made was not that php coders are bad, i just like to pick on them 07:10:49 i use them as an example of the phenomenon where its perceived that right is what people agree upon 07:10:55 and that isn't necessarily so 07:11:13 that doesn't make me right just because i disagree with everyone, it simply isn't a justification for the validity of the position 07:11:18 I just got an idea for a new Firefox plug-in: SIMPLE. Superior Implementation for Meta Programming Language Engine; ie. ECL embedded in a Firefox plug-on. 07:11:23 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:11:32 ultimately this conversation is pointless and code talks. google has made billions off of dhtml, so be it 07:11:45 cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has joined #lisp 07:12:03 javascript interface to bash has been around for years as well 07:12:10 its nothing new and nothing anyone wants to really use 07:13:07 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:09 holycow: and by that you mean "wants to use today". you have no idea what enables the use, if its enabled ever 07:14:21 Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 07:14:52 agreed *nod* 07:15:18 prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:41 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 07:17:25 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590e8c60.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 07:18:47 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.149] has joined #lisp 07:20:05 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:20:26 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-9235.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 07:21:31 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:22:28 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 07:24:27 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 07:25:00 cracki [n=cracki@44-164.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:25:11 lat__ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 07:25:44 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:32:06 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 07:39:14 And google will continue to do so. I think google-os will be the linux desktop, and succeed where everything else has pretty much failed. 07:39:19 Mainly due to dhtml. 07:40:35 notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@121.243.167.99] has joined #lisp 07:40:57 it won't 07:41:11 they achilees heele to the desktop is microsoft file format lock in 07:41:22 That's being broken. 07:41:38 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:41:51 if google were to put in the money to FULLY support their formats 100% with their product ... maybe 07:41:52 maybe 07:42:10 anyway it doesn't matter, the future is plurality 07:42:27 How do I compile libcellsgtk.so .. I don't find any documentation regarding the same on the web? 07:42:29 for the same reason that there are a million distros there will be a million google os's 07:42:39 the libcellsgtk.so I have does not seem to be working 07:42:40 hopefully over time the ms back will be broken 07:42:46 The future is always pretty much winner takes all for to feedback effects. 07:42:56 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:42:57 Which is why you don't see a plurality of consumer media types. 07:43:07 all i know is my linux isn't going away 07:43:12 stumpwm isn't going anywhere 07:43:30 no dhtml app comes close to native apps on my box in every respect 07:43:31 Yes, but your linux is going to be running more and more stuff in its browser. :) 07:43:41 i doubt it 07:43:59 i'm probably too old 07:44:12 i see things like facebook and i honestly don't get it 07:44:15 i don't get twitter 07:44:29 they have exactly 0 utility and functionality 07:44:37 google wave, maybe something interesting there 07:44:56 not everything has to have utility for it to be useful to somebody 07:44:59 like alcohol 07:45:12 heh 07:45:14 excellent point 07:45:37 s/useful/enjoyable 07:45:44 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 07:46:01 humans are social beings 07:46:12 zophy [n=sy@host-27-92-2-96.midco.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:16 we programmers neglect that fact too much (at least me) 07:46:24 humans also blink their life away behind the tv and on irc :) 07:46:36 yes that is a good point 07:46:51 which explains the fantastic crapola that is dhtml 07:46:53 hehehehe 07:46:57 Zhivago: sorry had to go for that 07:46:59 cheap shot 07:47:29 stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:30 dhtml has a good side 07:47:39 which i like quite a bit 07:47:49 and it is -- dhtml has "evolved" 07:47:52 i see no positive aspects to it what so ever 07:47:57 actually no it has not 07:48:05 it hasn't evolved one bit in the last 10 years 07:48:22 ok, browser support has evolved 07:48:35 that is about it 07:48:42 the rest of it is exactly the same minus html5 07:49:21 Any idea how to get at the (soft?) limit set by --dynamic-space-size argument to sbcl from within lisp. Apparently sb-vm:dynamic-space-(start/end) are just the defaults 07:49:49 holycow: you must admit that asynchronos http requests were not there 10 years back 07:49:55 holycow: You are really mired in your prejudices. :) 07:50:05 actually they were 07:50:06 holycow: What is so bad about dom model? 07:50:11 infact they were around 2k 07:50:13 ms invented them 07:50:23 i know it was ms 07:50:23 <[df]> there were hacks to do async requests before XmlHttpRequest came along 07:50:36 i was doing asynch style javascript in ie4 or so with what are they called ... not frames ... 07:50:45 i forget now 07:50:50 iframes 07:50:56 thats it 07:51:23 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 07:51:28 ok, i'm not keeping track of years flying by 07:51:42 i am simply because people say things are changing 07:51:43 and improving 07:51:51 and its 2010 07:52:02 its all the same nonsense i've seen in 1999 07:52:06 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:52:12 the same really great 'hey you don't need flash, just do it all in dhtml' 07:52:14 oh but wait 07:52:21 the ie dom is different than the mozilla dom handling 07:52:32 oh wait now i haveto have separate js libraries for all of this 07:52:34 but wait! 07:52:52 holycow: more lisp 07:52:55 i don't have an ide for any of this, so my graphic designer cant even do the most basic animation, i haveto script it all and all 07:52:59 and on and on and on 07:53:32 can you do cool stuff? 07:53:33 fuck yeah 07:53:34 Ah, you're a burned out wreck -- that explains a lot. :) 07:53:36 no question 07:53:47 but NOTHING has changed 07:53:50 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:54:08 html5 will add some retarded widgets, you will see people doing stupid littlegames with canvas and shit 07:54:09 There's been plenty of convergance between the browsers and the spec. 07:54:26 running at 10 fps in yoru browser on a dual cpu octacore system 07:54:44 something that has the power of what used to be considered a super computer 15 years ago 07:54:52 Nah, chrome already beats that. 07:55:13 again, all of these are semantics. code talks. 07:55:20 please be offtopic, talk about common lisp related stuff. 07:55:22 when i start seeing real heavy weight applications delivered in dhtml 07:55:25 then we can talk 07:55:33 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:55:51 well, chrome has v8 or whatsitcalled 07:56:14 oh and get this 07:56:21 nostoi [n=nostoi@80.31.171.133] has joined #lisp 07:56:27 Any sbcl hacker kind enough to enlighten me as to in what symbol the limit --dynamic-space-size is stored? 07:56:29 now we are no longer calling websites websites any more 07:56:37 we are now 'putting our resources into the cloud' 07:56:42 my lord 07:56:50 humanity ignorance has no bounds 07:56:52 :) 07:56:58 okay i'll shutup, sorry! 07:57:09 well, you have not discovered anything new 07:57:11 holycow: I feel your pain 07:57:22 i have 07:57:25 i discovered lisp 07:57:27 and people who make money have learned to exploit exactly the things you mention 07:57:32 i discovered that everything i've been taught is wrong 07:57:34 lol 07:57:41 and lisp is one of the oldest languages out there 07:57:47 man oh man, that bakes my noodle 07:58:05 jdz: indeed, i wish i had that skill 08:01:02 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-79-16.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 08:03:54 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 08:04:19 -!- aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host202-224-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:04:36 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:04:47 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@80.31.171.133] has quit ["Verlassend"] 08:07:23 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:09:39 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:11:22 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[n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 08:39:53 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:41:39 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-9235.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:41:42 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 08:43:43 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:46:37 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:49:00 Hmm, well clisp's package locks were a nuisance, but I have rescued commas from their backquotely tomb. 08:49:15 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 08:50:31 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 09:04:39 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 09:09:25 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 09:10:56 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 09:11:23 good morning 09:11:27 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 09:11:52 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:13:58 ilitirit annotated #83349 "improved version with swank support" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83349#1 09:17:34 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 09:17:43 okflo [n=user@91.115.89.246] has joined #lisp 09:18:42 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:22:51 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:23:43 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:24:04 gko [n=Keca@116.59.163.227] has joined #lisp 09:27:00 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 09:28:38 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 09:29:03 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 09:30:20 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-188.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 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[n=asdf@unaffiliated/gh7d395pi69wd] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:51:48 'mornin 09:52:57 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 09:53:14 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 09:53:26 steez: new here? 09:53:58 Just a new nick I suppose. 09:54:17 you got me 09:54:21 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 09:54:30 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has left #lisp 09:54:42 i used densem the last days 09:55:09 is my ip so uncommon ? ^^ 09:55:23 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-27-92-2-96.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:55:49 steez: It is quite obvious from the logs. 09:56:03 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:36 sanxiyn [n=tinuviel@118.219.169.203] has joined #lisp 09:57:05 hello beach 09:59:21 hey mvilleneuve 10:00:00 ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 10:00:16 densem was just a portemanteau (from a pl pdf) , as i'm coming back more often, i might as 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[i=738016e9@gateway/web/freenode/x-18ac85a6700c95d8] has joined #lisp 11:28:23 what are the pros of cons of storing the result of (get-universal-time) as an integer in an RDBMs vs. using the DATE datatype which doesn't seem to be standardized? 11:28:56 The main problem with date datatypes is bloody americans. 11:29:03 I suggest avoiding it where practical. 11:29:11 CLSQL has its own utilities of making dates, time intervals and durations; i thought of bypassing that and doing my own date manipulation in my own application code. 11:29:49 mkfort [i=MQZ9gSHZ@68-189-164-209.dhcp.spbg.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 11:31:43 undecode-universal time as an integer seems like a very good idea 11:31:59 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:32:06 Not even americans can stuff those up much. 11:32:58 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:32:59 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:35:15 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [] 11:35:28 Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 11:36:32 storing universal times in the DB can be annoying, because there are usually DB functions to deal with unix times, but not with universal times. Using unix times can be acceptable from a DB standpoint, but then need to be converted for use in Lisp, which also invites mistakes if done manually. The only satisfying solution is to do it automatically. 11:36:35 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 11:36:35 cl-perec uses local-time, for example, and maps that to whatever the DB supports. 11:37:36 -!- KingNato_ [n=patno@195.149.143.194] has quit [] 11:38:01 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Client Quit] 11:38:01 I'm not entirely certain I like working with local-time objects, but they have the huge advantage of not being raw integers that invite misinterpretation depending on context. 11:41:33 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483B1F5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:41:43 local-time looks glorious 11:41:57 i was using s-util:format-universal-time briefly 11:42:57 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has joined #lisp 11:43:47 hello 11:43:54 -!- gko [n=Keca@116.59.163.227] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:44:09 -!- Guest29986 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 11:44:23 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177157231.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:46:38 hello fe[nl]ix. No more exams? 11:46:49 nope 11:49:00 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:34 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1E280.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:51:36 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:52:40 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has left #lisp 11:53:44 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 11:54:14 -!- fusss [i=738016e9@gateway/web/freenode/x-18ac85a6700c95d8] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 11:54:25 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 11:54:40 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dc077103369a8d1e] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:58:14 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 12:03:01 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 12:04:27 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1DD57.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:07:40 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:10:45 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:12:15 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-21-24.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:13:22 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:14:15 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 12:15:10 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.7.237] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:15:47 Jasko3 [n=tjasko@98.235.105.148] has joined #lisp 12:19:08 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-194.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:23 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:23:00 Blkt [n=Blkt@93-33-128-106.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:32:48 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:36:14 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:45:19 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:46:00 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 12:48:25 coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has joined #lisp 12:49:41 -!- cracki [n=cracki@44-164.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 12:49:58 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-235.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:54:48 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 12:55:16 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:57:18 dlowe [n=dlowe@63.107.91.99] has joined #lisp 13:03:30 haowan [i=haowan@116.225.125.215] has joined #lisp 13:04:31 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:04:40 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.149] has quit ["BCE HA MOPE!!"] 13:05:36 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 13:06:23 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:07:55 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 13:08:41 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 13:09:30 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:09:53 tomppa [n=tomppa@130.234.203.17] has joined #lisp 13:12:43 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:13:39 aircastle [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:13:53 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:14:52 -!- Blkt [n=Blkt@93-33-128-106.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:22:35 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:25:05 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:18 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-218-59.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:28:16 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:36 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:32:24 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:05 borism [n=boris@195.50.197.29] has joined #lisp 13:34:38 okflo [n=user@91-115-90-13.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:36:18 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.22] has joined #lisp 13:38:52 okflo` [n=user@91-115-90-13.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:40:16 -!- okflo [n=user@91-115-90-13.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:42:07 is this paper known to you guys? ftp://ftp.cs.utexas.edu/pub/boyer/diss/akers.pdf 13:45:09 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has left #lisp 13:45:32 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@e179120222.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 13:46:16 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 13:47:34 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:47:46 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:49:33 levy_: never heard of it 13:50:11 fe[nl]ix, well, then i can't ask for your opinion ;-) 13:50:25 looks impressive, though 13:51:43 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:17 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:00:54 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:04 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 14:03:11 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 14:03:17 gko [n=gko@122.116.15.138] has joined #lisp 14:05:53 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@87-42.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.1"] 14:06:05 ... Computational Logic Inc.? Were they the ACL2 people, or am I mis-remembering? 14:06:06 nyef, memo from deepfire: git://git.feelingofgreen.ru/lh-usb adds a port to CFFI, move from usbfs to sysfs and a couple more functions. 14:06:40 Oho! 14:07:00 nyef: seems to be closely related. 14:07:03 ... Though the move to sysfs from usbfs should "just" be a matter of adjusting a function or two. 14:07:34 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:39 levy_: Not sure how I feel about their objective to work in the presence of unstructured data types like CONS. 14:07:39 (Or possibly the LPT, I -know- I intended on using LPNs at one point but don't remember if I actually did.) 14:09:15 willb [n=wibenton@compsci-wifi-39.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:09:36 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 14:10:41 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:11:39 Greetings. 14:13:19 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has joined #lisp 14:13:28 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:15:46 -!- haowan [i=haowan@116.225.125.215] has quit [] 14:18:55 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:21:39 tmh: hi 14:21:39 leo2007, memo from tmh: The assert-sigfig-equal now works on float, list, vector and array arguments. But, it is in the expanded-interface branch of lisp-unit. You *must* be in the expanded-interface branch to use the new assert-sigfig-equal. 14:21:45 nyef, yes that was just that 14:22:18 tmh: I have upgraded lisp-unit to the latest and I'm using the expanded-interface branch. However, http://paste.lisp.org/display/84064#2 still fails 14:22:43 the error is: Expected #(9.7656e-4) but saw #(9.765625d-4) 14:23:17 nyef, In fact it got simpler. But racier -- due to the async access to a potentially mutable-under-your-feet kernel filsesystem. 14:24:24 it succeeded by changing sigfig to 5 14:25:03 nyef, in the process I've also lost the fill-pointer-enabled arrays, as sb-sys:with-pinned-objects precludes that, and that's what cffi:with-array-data-pointer uses. 14:25:40 leo2007: That makes sense, I'm not sure why I posted that annotation with 8 significant figures. It is equal to only 5. 14:25:46 jlf [n=user@adsl-76-253-93-71.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:51 Right, but... Don't I use an sb-kernel call to grab the underlying vector anyway? 14:26:04 That underlying vector is pinnable. 14:26:29 leo2007: Is it working otherwise? 14:26:38 nyef, then, I guess, SBCL needs to be fixed to allow sb-sys:w-p-o on this kind of arrays.. 14:26:45 leo2007: How long does it take to perform the tests? 14:26:46 0.00097656 is 8 significant figures, isn't it? 14:26:52 No 14:27:01 tmh: the test fails, because 14:27:44 this 14:28:26 "pissing"? (docstring for stream-ioctl.) 14:29:01 Ouch :-) 14:29:04 -!- okflo` [n=user@91-115-90-13.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:30:18 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 14:30:19 You know, it'd be interesting to be able to have constructors for alien/foreign structs, so we don't have to use setf of slot/foreign-slot-value all the time. 14:30:21 re 14:30:37 hello splittist 14:30:38 letexpx [n=letexpx@LPuteaux-156-16-28-243.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:31:11 stream-ioctl is a good idea, though I might have named it a little differently. 14:31:20 nyef, any ideas? 14:31:21 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:31:31 I fixed the typo. 14:32:18 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 14:32:23 Not yet, though... I might also fold in the error handling, as it's pretty much boilerplate all over. Or perhaps a separate macro for that. 14:32:59 Right, I missed that. 14:33:01 (As there's one or two places where a "failed" ioctl has specific meaning.) 14:33:48 tmh: it seems it is faster than assert-numerical-equal, only takes 1.511 seconds for a 300x1111 array 14:34:29 tmh: definitely faster. for 1000x1111, it takes 9.2 seconds 14:34:36 leo2007: Very interesting. I would not have expected that. 14:34:58 but I have set sigfig to 5 not sure if that has impact 14:35:15 ausente [n=user7994@187.34.46.192] has joined #lisp 14:35:39 tmh: is there a way to to assert eqaul two things if they all round to the 8th decimal point? 14:35:51 ... you also converted the interrupt-transfer hack to use cffi? 14:35:52 leo2007: No, I'd like to see some profiling comparisons. But, I'm busy through next week, so do take time to do them, I wouldn't have time to look at the results, anyway. 14:36:10 all elements of my array is between 0 and 1 14:36:14 leo2007: That no was to set sigfig to 5 14:36:56 pkhuong, maybe you are the right person to ask, what is the main drawback of ML/Haskell type systems compared to the dynamic nature of lisp 14:36:58 Ah, I see that I didn't end up using an LPT in the public version. 14:37:12 i certainly have a couple of answers, just wondering what others have 14:37:25 -!- aircastle [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:37:40 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:40 do not think about CL's type system but rather the dynamic nature of lisp in general 14:38:00 nyef, LPT/LPN? 14:38:28 leo2007: RE: round to the 8th decimal point, in that case, you could use assert-numerical-equal with appropriate epsilon. assert-sigfig-equal with the correct number of significant figures. Since you have the expanded-interface branch, you can also try float-equal, it is finer grained that assert-numerical-equal. 14:38:28 nyef, lh-usb -related? 14:38:29 Logical Pathname Translation / Logical Path Name. 14:38:38 wakeup_vanuber [n=wakeup@koln-4db433b9.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 14:38:53 cYmen_ [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 14:38:58 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16B3BB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:38:59 Essentially, establish a translation for a host USB: that expands to /proc/bus/usb/ or whatever. 14:39:03 for example, do we often have code where the two branches of an if returns unrelated types? (since that is forbidden in those type systems) 14:39:24 leo2007: So, what you are saying is that everything is rounded to the 8 decimal place, but some quantities have more significant figures than 5? 14:39:51 tmh: yes 14:39:52 nyef, these device numbers are so volatile they have no much meaning per se. I don't think they deserve a pathname.. 14:40:10 It's more a shortcut in case the location of /proc/bus/usb/ changes. 14:40:27 leo2007: Are your values double-float? 14:40:32 nyef, I think I already changed it to /dev/bus/usb/.. 14:40:36 You did. 14:40:39 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 14:40:52 double-float in lisp, but the expected one is from fortran saved to a file 14:41:01 levy_: if I understand you well, then yes: (if pred string nil) 14:41:04 My point is that it'd be easier to fix for compatability with older systems. 14:41:16 Explicitly doing a merge-pathnames would work as well. 14:41:17 I need to find a way to save fortran output to 8 sigfig 14:41:21 lisppaste has a pile of that sort of thing. 14:41:26 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:41:28 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:41:35 leo2007: No, that is not required. 14:41:54 ok 14:42:04 fe[nl]ix, i think that is doable in Haskell with the type: Maybe string 14:42:47 but returning an array of integers or a double-float would certainly be very difficult 14:42:51 if not impossible 14:42:51 Hrm. You're still using sb-int:strerror, sb-sys:fd-stream-fd and sb-unix:unix-ioctl, but that seems to be the only sbcl-specific calls. 14:42:57 leo2007: Is the fortran data double precision? 14:43:14 leo2007: Not in the file, but in the actual code. 14:43:20 tmh: yes 14:43:26 nyef, yes, I wasn't sure what to do about strerror, so I left it for you to decide. 14:43:32 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:44:26 Umm... I'd make another wrapper like you did with stream-ioctl and then leave it until someone else wants to port it, unless there's an equivalent function in cffi already. 14:44:51 tmh: yes, double precision in fortran too 14:45:10 hmmm, i think there seems to be not too much interest about type systems and type inference in the CL camp 14:45:37 nyef: there's iolib.syscalls:%sys-ioctl :) 14:46:16 fe[nl]ix: I'm perfectly happy with sb-unix:unix-ioctl, to be honest. 14:46:18 for example, i don't know if SLIME has an easy way to show you the derived type of a function (of course only if it is compiled) 14:46:55 levy_: that leaves you a bigger opportunity to be a hero :P 14:47:07 Remember that I'm the one who has no problem being extremely SBCL-dependent, and has managed to stretch sb-alien beyond what cffi can easily do for type translation. 14:47:24 nyef, you don't have objections to the usb-device structure? 14:47:50 leo2007: Than the best solution would be to format the fortran data with double precision and set *read-default-float-format* to double-float. As it is now, you'll need to set *epsilon* to something on the order of 10,000,000 double-float-epsilon because using a single-float-epsilon is too course. I think you're ending up with 2 double-float-epsilon by default anyway because your lisp data is double-float. 14:47:53 nyef: heh, I'm not yet convinced :-) 14:47:54 deepfire: I'll admit to having just glanced at it, not thought about it in depth. 14:48:01 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has quit ["leaving"] 14:48:08 luis: Will you be when I fix typep? 14:48:10 corse 14:48:26 fe[nl]ix, i would be happy to work on a type inference lib for CL, but there are two problems with that 14:48:39 one is the easier, i don't have the money and time to do so 14:49:23 the other one is somewhat harder, even though i've read TAPL 1/2, i don't feel to be ready for that 14:50:26 -!- cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 14:51:21 one day for example, i was thinking about side effects; more precisely whether allocation is to be treated as a side effect or not 14:51:23 -!- wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-4db433b9.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:51:44 (Not that typep is completely broken, but I have a use-case that ends up boxing an alien value only to do the type-test and then unboxes it to pass it as an argument, then discards the boxed value. Utter waste. 14:52:38 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:53:10 leo2007: I take that back, the default *epsilon* is set by the less precise of the values being compared, so you're probably getting 2 single-float-epsilon, unless you are reading the data in as double-float data. So, if you're not worried about the comparison being a little sloppy, you could set *epsilon* to single-float-epsilon, or even some fraction of that like 1/2 . 14:54:04 is there a built in way to compose 2 functions into a single (anonymous) one? 14:54:08 f1 o f2 style 14:54:16 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has quit ["Valete!"] 14:54:17 to save me some nested mapcars ;P 14:54:50 -!- kmels is now known as kmels-nota 14:56:15 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:13 Here's something I'd like to change in SLIME: I want to inspect a definition in code buffer A. I use the find-def command. I get a list of definitions (often a defgeneric + a defmethod), I select one. The old context buffer with the call is replaced with the definition source, and I'm left with a useless definition list buffer. I'd really like to end up with the calling code and the definition in the two windows... 14:57:15 tmh: thanks. I extended the output in fortran to F11.9 and set the sigfig to 6, and it passed. 14:57:22 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 14:57:40 yahooooo, compose 14:57:50 yvdriess, i mean: compose :) 14:58:20 it's in alexandria 15:00:39 leo2007: Ok. 15:01:54 tmh: let me know when you have time for profiling 15:03:14 *splittist* thinks he should look at what alexandria contains, actually having installed it... 15:03:42 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:03:48 leo2007: It will be some time. If you really want to help me with that, it would be better if you could send me some tests that I could profile on my own and use to evaluate the effect of the code changes. 15:04:28 tmh: I can send you the whole package. 15:05:55 rouslan [n=Rouslan@pool-70-109-137-208.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:02 leo2007: Send an email to the address I posted on the git repository either with instructions on how to get the package or with the package attached, thanks. 15:06:26 -!- prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:08:14 -!- letexpx [n=letexpx@LPuteaux-156-16-28-243.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:08:43 Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 15:09:48 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:09:52 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-162-201.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["leaving"] 15:11:07 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has joined #lisp 15:11:12 " The success of this effort and the continued development and support of Lisp-based products and research seems to guarantee the languages continued popularity, despite claims that newer languages rest on more sophisticated and attractive foundations and impose greater discipline." 15:11:48 Where's that from, and is taht related to lisp or something else? 15:13:04 tmh: sent. 15:13:29 From levy_ 's paper 15:14:32 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:15:21 jewel_, i wish that would be my paper :-) 15:16:18 -!- steez [n=fasteez2@218.217.72-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [""Goodbye folks, and thanks""] 15:16:32 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 15:16:52 steez [n=fasteez2@218.217.72-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:21 leo2007: received 15:25:03 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:25:15 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-148-57.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:25:20 Is it true that if you have a set S of values and V(S) is the variance of S, and a set T of values that are strictly smaller than the smallest value of S, then V(S U T) > V(S)? 15:26:14 tmh: ;) 15:26:31 Depends on the size of the sets S and T, surely? 15:28:19 I was hoping it wouldn't. 15:28:35 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 15:29:26 In fact, perhaps it is even true that if V(S) < V(T) for any two sets S and T, then V(S) < V(S U T) < V(T)? 15:30:48 Well, you have the trivial case where S and T are the same set, in which case it isn't < 15:31:05 Zhivago: Then what I said is trivially true. 15:31:43 Why would V(S) < V(T) if S and T are the same set? 15:32:03 Zhivago: I didn't say that. I said IF V(S) < V(T) then ... 15:32:12 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:33:49 -!- steez [n=fasteez2@218.217.72-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [] 15:33:57 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:35:03 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 15:35:30 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:37:11 Beach: Ok, I think that V(S U T) < V(T) doesn't follow. 15:37:33 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:37:50 Beach: Say S has samples in the range 1 to 10, and T has samples in the range 1000 to 1020. 15:38:25 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 15:39:00 V(S U T) now has samples in the range of 1 to 1020. 15:39:12 Right 15:40:23 Zhivago: And now I have no idea why I thought the first conjecture would follow from the second :) 15:40:35 Zhivago: So, let's concentrate on the first one. 15:42:09 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-158-24.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:42:38 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 15:42:40 -!- tomppa [n=tomppa@130.234.203.17] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:42:44 Zhivago: Oh, wait. Is it true that if for all x in S and all y in T x < y, then V(S U T) > max(V(S), V(T))? 15:42:47 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:43:12 tomppa [n=tomppa@b27.kiulu.jyu.fi] has joined #lisp 15:43:20 Zhivago: If that is true, then my first conjecture would follow. 15:43:30 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:44:30 Beach: I believe so. 15:44:50 That does sound plausible. Now I need to prove it. 15:45:03 (of find someone who already did) 15:46:16 Zhivago: Thanks for listening! 15:50:16 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 15:51:08 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 15:51:45 Welcome. 15:53:15 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit ["leaving"] 15:56:13 mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 15:59:38 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:01:20 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:01:46 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:03:18 -!- Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has left #lisp 16:03:41 -!- jlf [n=user@adsl-76-253-93-71.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:03:48 krumholt [n=krumholt@92.193.97.204] has joined #lisp 16:05:36 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host101-176-dynamic.51-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:07:00 robyonrails [n=roby@host222-218-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:09:59 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 16:17:43 -!- levy_ [n=levy@apn-94-44-6-1.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 16:19:55 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:13 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 16:23:25 aircastle [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:23:32 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:25:56 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:28:06 -!- aircastle [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:29:09 jlf [n=user@209.204.171.101] has joined #lisp 16:29:33 Does anyone have a hunchentoot/cl-who website delivering files encoded in utf-8? 16:30:22 Mine seems to be working correctly with the popular browsers, but if I use wget it is no longer utf-8. 16:30:55 I'm not sure that it's wget, because I seem to be able to download other utf-8 pages correctly. 16:32:34 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:34:07 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 16:34:31 ahaas: I don't know, but perhaps there's a negociation of the encoding, and perhaps wget doesn't tell hunchentoot that it can accept utf-8? 16:35:02 ahaas: do you wget utf-8 from other web servers? 16:35:24 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:35:42 pjb: I tried an accept header, but that didn't help. Yes, I was able to download one of those utf-8 demo files correctly, but I was hoping to try on someone else's hunchentoot setup. 16:36:08 Yes in that case it might be a problem on hunchentoot side. 16:36:18 I was thinking that maybe the other browsers were more forgiving and I might be missing some other indicator. 16:36:40 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:36:47 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:36:50 the newer hunchentoot version is a piece of crap 16:37:09 jthing, did you send a bug report? 16:37:09 I can almost guarantie it's to blame 16:37:17 why is it crap? 16:37:18 several 16:37:59 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 16:38:12 ahaas: I tried with my sbcl server and wget, and I get utf-8. 16:38:14 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:38:23 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 16:38:53 ahaas: It's hunchentoot 0.15.7 and 1.11.4 16:38:57 ahaas: firebug can show the request/response headers.. you could use it to verify that your accept header is going out as you expect 16:38:58 jthing, venting here isn't as helpful as you might think. 16:39:00 jchicas [n=jchicas@137smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 16:39:22 Or just firefox, menu Tools / Page Info 16:39:28 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@137smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit [Client Quit] 16:39:32 jlf: Yeah, I tried that, but the headers looked the same. 16:39:37 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:46 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:40:04 ahaas: didn't then both include: Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 16:40:05 ? 16:40:40 deepfire: true, however it is not the place for a bug report 16:41:15 ahaas: I generate the pages with cl-who: (with-html-output (*html-output-stream* :encoding "UTF-8" :kind :html) ...) 16:41:23 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:41:26 A common mistake is to send HTML with the right Content-Type (which the browser looks at) but without a meta tag, meaning that when saved to disk, the file doesn't state its encoding anymore. Don't know whether that's the case here. 16:41:26 pjb: Yes. And I have (setf (content-type*) "text/html; charset=utf-8" (reply-external-format*) (flex:make-external-format :utf-8 :eol-style :lf)) 16:41:34 and to be fair the new huncentoot version will throgh you a few, so you might as well prepare 16:41:42 ahaas: and initialized it with (setf hunchentoot:*HUNCHENTOOT-DEFAULT-EXTERNAL-FORMAT* *utf-8* hunchentoot:*DEFAULT-CONTENT-TYPE* "text/html; charset=UTF-8") 16:41:59 (defparameter *utf-8* (flex:make-external-format :utf-8 :eol-style :lf) "The UTF-8 encoding.") 16:42:21 Ok, it's definitely my setup then. I will try your settings and check out what lichtblau mentioned. 16:42:38 several weeks of revising my blog, and that bug-track system have told me as much 16:42:50 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:43:00 So I was right to add the meta content-type too... 16:43:44 deepfire: I will try to be more concrete, however 16:44:16 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590e8c60.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:44:39 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 16:46:14 borism_ [n=boris@195.50.206.212] has joined #lisp 16:50:50 I think the meta tag in the html solved it. 16:51:10 pjb, I don't see an :encoding keyword for with-html-output 16:51:39 that's because there is none 16:51:58 -!- borism [n=boris@195.50.197.29] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:52:19 meta is a per page thing 16:52:25 borism [n=boris@195.50.206.236] has joined #lisp 16:53:09 ahaas: probably changed from one version to another. 16:53:13 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 16:53:55 thanks pjb, lichtblau 16:54:16 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 16:54:17 -!- pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has left #lisp 16:54:24 pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:54:49 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:35 a lot of things have changed 16:57:23 ahh, the more concrete bit 16:57:25 borism__ [n=boris@195.50.200.200] has joined #lisp 16:57:31 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195.50.206.212] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:57:41 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:58:17 ok, you need a id argument to each call 16:58:57 Any recommendations for free/cheap web hosting? 16:59:11 startlogic 16:59:21 not free, but cheap 16:59:26 Support for running CL apps on the server is a massive (and highly unexpected) plus 16:59:47 ie, running CL web apps with Hunchentoot & co 16:59:47 Adlai: linode.com maybe 16:59:50 *Xach* rents a server in a datacenter 17:00:02 at startlogic you can buy your own server 17:00:03 Adlai: I haven't actually tried to run CL on my Linode. 17:00:52 I hear you'll get better performance with a Xen Linode, instead of... what's the other one? 17:00:52 You might also consider tech.coop. 17:01:15 try a intel zenon with BSD 17:02:31 -!- borism [n=boris@195.50.206.236] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:07:25 jthing: surely the manufacturer of the chip is largely immaterial? :) 17:08:04 -!- borism__ [n=boris@195.50.200.200] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:08:06 zenon? 17:08:35 exu0 [n=u@dslb-084-056-204-013.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:05 sure it is, i am just looking at their offerings 17:09:09 xeon, I assume 17:09:15 right 17:09:25 I can't spell for shit 17:09:38 are there any free lisps which work well on any BSD, at this point, actually? 17:09:59 clozure 17:10:26 though for web I would think clisp is best 17:10:39 I/O is faster.. 17:10:59 -!- exu0 [n=u@dslb-084-056-204-013.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 17:11:07 is ~$40/month the standard for that kind of hosting? 17:11:17 exu0 [n=u@dslb-084-056-204-013.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:29 100$ a year is possible 17:11:31 Adlai: for leasing a server, yep, lowish end of standard 17:11:55 I've seen a few companies as low at 20 euro a month 17:12:00 but then you are stuck with a shared server 17:12:16 PHP, and MySQL etc 17:13:09 Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 17:13:13 *Adlai* doesn't care for PHP SQL & co... either bare minimum static pages, or a full virtual server. 17:13:43 then you buy that 17:14:00 yeah... probably gonna go with the former until I have a real need for the latter. 17:14:08 It just cost's a bit more 17:14:09 Adlai: If you go to tech.coop you'd sponsoring the guys behind c-l.net. 17:14:15 *ahaas* is very happy with tech.coop 17:14:38 only user of that tld I've ever seen :) 17:14:45 Other than the warm fuzzy feeling of supporting c-l.net, what do I get from tech.coop? 17:14:48 (or of any four-letter tld, for that matter) 17:15:11 .info is pretty common 17:15:29 Adlai: You get a xen share that can run sbcl and anything else you want. And the people who run it know Lisp very well. 17:15:38 oh, I forgot about .info; I tend to assume it's just for spam sites :) 17:16:05 *Adlai* considered getting adlai.info but decided on a less flaky-sounding url. 17:16:24 info is bad 17:16:25 brnhck [n=hrk@acurwa001247.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:16:56 -!- brnhck [n=hrk@acurwa001247.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 17:17:09 info is good, .info is bad. :) 17:17:15 right 17:17:32 *Adlai* wonders what's at info.info 17:17:53 hm, boring. 17:18:03 more.info 17:18:17 some german site .. heh 17:18:25 hi inostdal 17:18:38 no.info 17:18:38 hey jthing 17:18:54 lispers should unite; buy a catchy domain and make billions 17:19:01 .lisp ofc 17:19:08 tld for lisp apps. 17:19:13 yah 17:19:14 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:17 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 17:19:18 www.gigamoney.lisp 17:19:26 lol 17:19:45 we should get lisp.info as an infomercial about lisp for n00bz. 17:20:25 excuse the silly question, is there a function to convert an array into a list? 17:20:35 coerce 17:20:44 I believe there is a plan to allow arbitrary tlds 17:20:55 yeah, (coerce #(0 1 2) 'list) => (0 1 2) 17:20:56 hmm, cliki must be coming up for its annual domain expiry :) 17:20:57 jleija: COERCE will do it. 17:21:15 rsynnott: november 17:21:28 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 17:21:30 oh, thought it was earler 17:21:31 ah, thanks. Yes that's the one. 17:21:33 *earlier 17:21:41 For vectors, rather than arrays, surely? 17:21:55 urm yup 17:22:48 It only works for a 1 dimensional array 17:23:40 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 17:24:18 rsynnott: yah, it'll be terrible. :( 17:24:32 (re: plan to allow arbitrary TLDs) 17:25:05 how will that be terrible? .. people use the address-bar as a search engine already x) 17:25:32 (honest question btw.; i don't know .. :P) 17:25:38 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16B3BB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:25:55 well, let's look at the other way around: what possible *good* can it do? 17:26:21 true 17:26:43 well, er .. shorter names? 17:26:59 c.l.l ? 17:27:06 haha, yeah 17:27:08 jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 17:27:19 you can't have single segment names, so you can't just have "pepsi", you need at least "www.pepsi" or so 17:27:31 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:27:51 hm, yeah .. single segment would break the http cookie standard i think .. 17:28:33 www.lispart.xach 17:30:44 seve [n=remote@unaffiliated/romani] has joined #lisp 17:30:45 hi 17:30:57 im looking for an alogirthm to convert base10 (decimal) to base N 17:31:00 any ideas 17:31:03 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1E280.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:31:10 log 17:31:13 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 17:31:34 see *print-base* 17:31:35 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:31:41 seve: parse-integer, princ-to-string 17:31:56 its not specific to LISP 17:32:14 i just decided to ask in here since some of them do compsci i believe so.. 17:32:35 well it is in the world of lisp 17:32:46 -!- pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit ["need to restart erc to get back font-locking. :-("] 17:32:47 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:32:49 awesome 17:32:53 thx Xach, jthing 17:33:01 you want the C verion as well 17:33:06 ? 17:33:11 can you explain further on this parse=integer 17:33:13 how do? 17:33:14 yeah 17:33:24 parse-integer 17:33:27 im not very familiar with LISP but im getting there, more accustomed to C 17:33:35 or some prefer a read 17:33:42 understand how we count and the solution will be obvious. 17:33:51 how so a parse-integer though 17:34:12 pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 17:34:43 could you explain a bit more on that 17:34:51 -!- antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has left #lisp 17:34:53 kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:34:53 antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:55 I would use read-line, cl-ppcre (regexp) to parse the string, and read 17:34:58 seve: Can I politely point you to google.com, or that wolfram thing 17:35:57 brnhck [n=hrk@acurwa001247.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:36:15 jthing: im kinda lost there 17:36:19 its an algorithm im after 17:36:22 -!- brnhck [n=hrk@acurwa001247.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 17:36:29 you're talking about the process 17:36:33 not the action im afriad 17:36:42 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:49 what algorithm? 17:36:58 im looking for an alogirthm to convert base10 (decimal) to base N 17:37:15 you seemed to have a canned and stored problem 17:37:36 see *print-base* 17:37:40 where does the algorithm come here though or what does your solution do 17:38:15 You don't need a alogorithm for that, you need to change the *print-base* 17:38:27 Or FORMAT's ~R 17:38:34 as i said before 17:39:13 ah 17:39:24 i don't think seve is looking for what lisp already provides(?); he wants to reimplement it (or something like it) .. googling for "convert base" yield plenty of results btw. 17:39:51 lnostdal: thats what i said frpm the start 17:40:16 jthing is talking about the hex convertion i think 17:40:25 seve: well don't do that 17:41:03 (let ((*print-base* 16)) ) 17:41:17 that's hex 17:41:19 seve: numbers are usually not stored in base 10, you know that right? 17:41:57 jthing right, not what i was looking for 17:42:07 luis: no kidding 17:42:33 seve: ok, so, think about how to print in base 10, and then it's easy to generalise for base N. 17:42:35 seve is a C programmer 17:42:48 aircastle [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:43:40 luis: How do you know? The computer the universe is running on may be a decimal system. 17:44:22 I just know, ok? 17:44:38 "ok" 17:44:45 seve, here's one article about it; http://www.searchmarked.com/math/how-to-convert-from-base-10-decimal-to-any-other-base.php 17:44:49 jthing, i think a sigma notation works best here 17:45:21 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-79-16.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:45:40 prrint-base is something else all together but thx 17:45:53 lnostdal: yeah got it, sigma notation JFGI 17:46:29 seriously I did that in basic when i was 10. one of the things i liked about lisp was that I didn't have to 17:46:50 didnt have to what? 17:47:07 convert numbers by algorithm 17:47:28 I think it shows some confusion when someone says they're converting from base 10 to another base. 17:47:36 im doing it in C 17:48:06 that was the confusion:) 17:48:30 seve: printf ("%x" what-ever-as-long-as-it-is-decimal) 17:49:13 seve: Good for you. Now do it. All further discussion about this will be off-topic. 17:49:46 jthing: and for base 24 to 10 17:49:47 :P 17:51:06 well base 24 is just 3 hex characters, and 10 is decimal 17:51:21 let's move on 17:51:41 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 17:51:47 seve: In that case, use ECL and (format t "~24r" num) ;) 17:51:59 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["be back later"] 17:52:20 yeah you can use COMPILE-FILE with :c-output (iirc) and will produce a .c file for you 17:52:36 segv [n=mb@p4FC1E280.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:46 ? 17:53:03 *seve* rolls eyes 17:53:21 That's hardly in the spec. 17:53:22 with unicode you can get up to base 1114112 or so, right? :) 17:53:32 jthing: It's ECL. 17:54:00 luis: right, but there are not that many different glyphs, and CL specifies only up to base 36. 17:54:33 as in 2^36 17:54:34 luis: otherwise you can always write digits as .1235190312. (which would be the last digit in base 1235190313). 17:54:40 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 17:54:51 heh 17:54:57 sounds very DEC 17:55:00 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:55:10 .11. .10. .11. .14. = BABE 17:55:24 (in base sixteen). 17:55:51 java signiture CAFEBABE 17:55:54 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 17:56:03 all hex.. 17:57:09 *p_l* prefers 0xDEADBEEF 17:58:05 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 17:58:26 *jthing* might be the only one to write a java disassembler in 20 minutes 17:58:35 emacs macroes 17:59:07 do it with TECO xD 18:00:22 milanj [n=milan@93.87.167.198] has joined #lisp 18:01:10 no way p_i 18:01:49 aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host68-103-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:03:15 -!- kmels-nota is now known as kmels 18:03:54 me thinks he is trying to proove something 18:04:04 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:04:05 *prove 18:04:36 lol, yes prove in a proove way 18:04:45 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host222-218-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 18:05:06 jthing: ? 18:05:56 beach: well can you write a java disassember in 20 minutes in TECO xD? 18:06:29 jthing: I don't know the word "proove" 18:06:38 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 18:06:48 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 18:07:03 that's because there isn't one 18:07:35 it about as real a figiture in James Joyce finnigans wake 18:07:37 jthing: You have the right to invent words, but if you do, you must explain them, because I have no other source of explanation. 18:08:13 beach: have you noticed that jthing is younder? 18:08:27 hrk [n=hrk@acurwa001247.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:08:42 luis: Oh, yes! I know. 18:08:42 The one and only. 18:09:27 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:09:38 Sometimes people steal my nick, and I am stuck with this backup. 18:09:46 you can ghost them 18:10:29 freenode has nickserv for a reason. :) 18:10:47 and I am registered 18:13:28 prime idiot at uni of edinburg 18:13:34 luis: I don't think jthing is a troll. I just think he needs to learn to think before uttering too much nonsense. 18:13:47 but hey I have my own cray-cx1 18:14:11 -!- kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:14:40 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 18:14:56 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:15:06 true, I don't troll. at least not consiously 18:15:24 jthing: But you can be pretty tiresome sometimes. 18:15:24 If it is percieved as such I regret it 18:16:29 I will admitt to that much 18:17:47 If you knew my satanistic practises you would resent me a lot more 18:17:53 -!- Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has left #lisp 18:18:01 *hypno* grabs a beer after wrestling with lisp and web development. phew, project's done, talk about tiresome. 18:18:01 generating C from ECL seems interesting .. ECL does seem a bit tricky to get up and running though .. 'utf-8-unix or not? .. can't get it to connect with slime/swank and stay connected 18:18:36 mdavid [n=mdavid@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:18:42 jthing: Me? Not really. I am an atheist so I don't understand any sort of religious practices. 18:19:37 whatever 18:19:39 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:20:19 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 18:21:00 ahh. ECL bit 18:21:03 -!- hrk [n=hrk@acurwa001247.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Riece/5.0.0 Emacs/22.3 (darwin)"] 18:21:41 well you need to compile SWANI into the image 18:21:48 SWANK 18:22:30 beeing a C program the interprented bit doesn't work so hot 18:22:45 ok, i'm gonna do a git pull and rebuild the thing before i try again 18:23:47 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:55 -!- aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host68-103-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left #lisp 18:27:18 -!- bulibuta [n=bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:27:28 -!- aircastle [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:28:12 .. --enable-unicode might be a good idea (default=no) .. :) 18:28:21 yes 18:30:29 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590e8c60.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 18:30:44 hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.3.27] has joined #lisp 18:31:09 why no listen to soeme music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHWicNDkbpw 18:32:18 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:32:45 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:33:24 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:33:56 and who said satanism can't be cool 18:35:20 jthing: nobody, because this is a channel about lisp, not satan or rammstein. Take note of that fact and avoid typing things that are not related to lisp programming. 18:35:34 *please* 18:35:55 ok 18:36:10 -!- gko [n=gko@122.116.15.138] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 18:36:35 It was just a quiet moment 18:36:49 18:37:08 argh. stuck on a server with clisp 2.33.2 18:37:16 so old it doesn't honor *default-pathname-defaults* properly :( 18:37:51 (oh, and also readline is broken, so tab crashes the repl) 18:38:04 jthing: i much prefer quiet moments to reading your blathering... there is nothing wrong with quiet... in fact it's quite nice. 18:38:46 old. old. old. 18:40:50 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 18:41:43 the ecl-build process gets really cranky without a 'make clean' .. --enable-unicode=yes --enable-threads=yes .. then 'utf-8-unix wrt. slime/swank and it's up .. nice 18:42:18 what do you mean by cranky? 18:43:04 would you paste the error report? 18:43:33 err .. it is long gone .. sorry 18:44:02 ..it works now anyway 18:44:13 It does? 18:44:17 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-10791.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 18:44:34 sure didn't sound like it 18:44:39 lnostdal: iirc, do you use GNU Make? (it's been picky about this before for me) 18:45:23 hypno, Debian testing .. so whatever the default 'make' there leads to 18:45:44 GNU make.. 18:45:56 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-188.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 18:47:27 I use UBUNTU, same as debian with fewer libraries 18:48:40 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:59 And better default settings... 18:49:07 And more user-friendly setup... 18:49:14 true 18:49:21 And less infuriating inconsistencies... 18:49:26 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.22] has quit ["Leaving..."] 18:49:29 And working distribution upgrade... 18:49:57 And recent package in stable... 18:50:07 -!- tomppa [n=tomppa@b27.kiulu.jyu.fi] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:50:09 yes, I lprefer ubuntu too 18:50:20 now stick to lisp 18:50:47 And less lisp support... ;-) 18:50:48 Jabberwockey: Debian is far more consistent that ubuntu in many, many ways. And newer often means more broken, debian breaks less 18:51:15 francisco [n=fhc@bl4-90-249.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:52:06 Lisp please? 18:52:54 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-69-221-252-243.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:53:14 jthing: If you will... he thaid, Debian ith far more conthithtent than ubuntu in many, many wayth... 18:53:39 common-lisp-controller is nice and they both have that 18:53:51 well, you remove something you loose somerthing 18:54:14 Usually you have to loosen things to remove them 18:54:29 wait, WHAT!? CLC is nice? O_o? 18:54:36 p8m: c-l-c doesn't work very well at all 18:55:15 try clozure for linux, I am having very positive experiences with it 18:55:31 fe[nl]ix: p_l: it works for me 18:55:53 p8m: that's hardly relevant. it breaks for a lot of other people 18:56:54 fe[nl]ix: Why should I give a damn? If you don't like it don't use it. 18:58:15 aircastle [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:58:16 -!- aircastle [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:59:12 p8m: if you like to help people who visit this channel with problems, you might give a damn. 18:59:46 p8m, because when making absolute statements like "common-lisp-controller is nice" you better not be wrong. 19:00:12 it'd be nice if someone gave a damn enough to figure out how to fix the packaging situation of lisp in a distribution like debian 19:01:04 foom: That's easy. Just don't use the debian packages. 19:01:05 it's one thing to say clc sucks, it's yet another to do something that doesn't. 19:01:21 schmx: THANK YOU, such a great solution! 19:01:28 Works For Me. 19:01:43 foom: It's like you do with ruby packages etc. too. 19:01:52 schmx: you mean, use debian packages? 19:01:59 kids! calm down! 19:02:02 No, don't use 'em. instead you use the ruby gem thing. 19:02:07 no I don't 19:03:05 Now, not being a debian user, I couldn't care less about CLC. and when I was a debian user, it was easily solved by not using the debian packages. clbuild is as easy, or easier, than aptitude install .. anyway. 19:03:46 clbuild abd sccl works on ubuntu and thus debian 19:03:54 Except clbuild doesn't know about releases, and will break if the head/master/trunk is broken. 19:03:57 haha whatever. I think a reasonable interpretation of a description of a piece of software as "nice" is as a personal opinion, not as a declaration of absolute, ageless, unimprovable quality. 19:04:00 I updated just yeasterday 19:04:11 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has left #lisp 19:04:15 and sbcl 19:04:20 anyways, you missed the point, it's not about debian, it's about how to package lisp software for a distribution. 19:04:35 clbuild is obviously not the answer to that, because it doesn't even attempt to solve it 19:04:36 How about asdf-install, eh? 19:05:23 of course everyone can download and compile their own software, but that's a different problem. 19:05:28 *schmx* thinks packaging lisp libraries and what not for distros is about as dumb as packaging ruby stuff or haskell stuff. 19:05:45 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.3.27] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:05:46 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:05:51 foom: one might argue that there isn't much point in packaging Lisp libraries. 19:06:13 luis: because nobody uses lisp? or because lisp library developers don't keep stable APIs? Or what? 19:06:20 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-69-221-252-243.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:30 fuck off 19:06:33 foom: because of image-based delivery. 19:06:41 that is simply not true 19:06:42 schmx: It's nice to have libraries packaged for python, ruby, haskell etc, because then you can have apps which depend on those libraries as packages. 19:07:08 p8m: That is what one uses ruby gems, haskell cabal, (and maybe somethnig else for python?) for. 19:07:10 jthing, please, stay away if you don't have anything constructive to say. 19:07:29 deepfire: you too 19:07:36 well this got friendly. 19:07:37 p8m: right and that doesn't make much sense in the Lisp world. Might make sense for ECL, perhaps. 19:07:40 luis: Sure, I guess lisp apps are often "statically linked" 19:07:41 *schmx* goes to somewhere else then. 19:07:52 foom: yes, that's my point. 19:07:55 luis: but you still want "-devel" packages 19:08:19 and some lisp things are scripts 19:08:36 foom: yeah maybe. 19:08:48 ok on debian the are -dev packages 19:08:51 there's no real reason you shouldn't be able to use lisp instead of python for little scripts. 19:09:28 foom: fair enough. 19:09:56 ECL actually works .. http://paste.lisp.org/display/84150 .. i still get disconnected from the REPL from time to time though; typing (lisp in the repl then hitting tab for auto-completion results in; "Internal or unrecoverable error in: Cannot grow stack size. [29: Illegal seek]" .. not sure if that's an ECL or Swank/Slime problem 19:10:25 It'd be cool if it was feasible to compile lisp shared libraries. :) 19:10:33 ECL can do that too 19:10:35 Inostadl: it's ECL 19:10:42 -dev packages are no problem. It would just untar some stable release tarball somewhere. 19:10:55 but it is as far as I got. Congrats 19:10:58 hey it dun even need a lisp implementation installed for the dev packages, and thus no CLC needed. 19:11:00 it is not fair to compare with ruby or python. There is only one _primary_ implementation for them. CL has many implementations, with some differences. Also the lisp community is smaller and some of the libraries are still changing. 19:11:15 foom: yeah, except that it isn't really feasible :-). 19:11:26 jleija: That is what CLC supposedly sorts out. The many implementations. 19:11:45 lichtblau: minor problems, you can fix that right? :) 19:11:56 I think -dev packages should be source download only -- no attempt to compile at installation time. Use asdf-binary-locations rather than the equivalent thing in clc. Put fasls into $HOME/.something rather than a global directory. 19:11:58 btw, cabal is *so* cool. it gets almost everything right. I think I want to copy it 19:12:16 And for non-development packages, ship images. 19:12:31 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:12:38 where's Fare ? 19:12:52 i ubuntu we /usr/SAARE/ 19:12:57 SHARE 19:13:05 lichtblau: sounds great. 19:13:41 fe[nl]ix, cabal? 19:14:07 fe[nl]ix: is it really better than clbuild? 19:14:09 schmx: even better news is that fe[nl]ix already does this the gentoo overlay AFAIU, and someone could just steal it for debian. 19:14:58 lnostdal: the package and compilation manager of the haskell people 19:15:04 ah 19:15:13 lichtblau: Well I'm not a debian user, so I couldn't care less about debian. Maybe for arch though (: 19:15:18 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.7.237] has joined #lisp 19:15:38 luis: cabal has the advantage of keeping track of versions of stuff etc. IIRC. 19:15:48 for dependencies and what not. 19:15:56 luis: I read its docs yesterday evening and was extraordinarily trilled with it. at a first glance, it seems very well designed 19:15:58 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:16:57 *jleija* reads about clc 19:17:26 lichtblau: that's less hard than you may think. portage(with a few adjustments) can work as secondary package manager, used to install in a user's home dir 19:17:53 luis: You can supply it with dependency for ... say "weblocks > 0.5 <= 1.0" and niceness. which only works if the packages themselves have versions of course :) 19:17:55 lichtblau: people are using portage prefix on osx, freebsd, centos, etc... 19:19:57 compilation freaks :-) 19:20:24 portage on freebsd? 19:20:34 how odd. 19:20:34 fe[nl]ix, you've been reading cabal's user manual, or something else? 19:20:59 deepfire: manual and api docs 19:21:03 clbuild workes fine for me on ubutu 19:21:22 never missed a library 19:22:03 It your expereriences defer please reply? 19:22:21 okflo [n=user@91-115-90-13.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:22:52 s/?/!/ 19:23:44 when clbuild works, it's fine. 19:23:51 I've been talking with levy and attila about using xcvb as module and compilation system, and writing a package manager 19:23:57 maybe later this year 19:24:09 if a repo in the dependency chain is unavailable due to network or whatever, it blows up quite spectacularly. :) 19:24:24 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:46 Don't use the hunchentoot library in clbuild 19:24:55 it is dated 19:25:12 Krystof: around? 19:27:22 -!- seve [n=remote@unaffiliated/romani] has quit [] 19:27:39 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["ETOOMUCHJTHING"] 19:27:44 do you want the updated library? 19:28:18 or are you content to quibble among yourself 19:28:48 _3b` [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:29:47 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A2A30.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:29:53 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 19:30:43 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 19:31:18 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 19:33:26 jpl3 [n=John@srb-wlan-12.AirBears.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:35:50 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-eba4121e8a802768] has joined #lisp 19:36:43 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has joined #lisp 19:37:23 moe_c [n=moe@CPE001217e40caa-CM0018c0c09832.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:39:24 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has quit [] 19:39:43 whatever 19:44:32 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 19:45:35 fusss [i=738000f2@gateway/web/freenode/x-e5a0529726af8308] has joined #lisp 19:45:48 good morning 19:47:01 good night 19:48:55 *TDT* wonders if jthing is a troll given his extremely abrasive comments made earlier 19:51:26 Probably just a drunk norwegian. 19:51:58 Good point, could be. 19:52:49 Xach: or Scot 19:52:52 -!- a-s [n=user@92.81.46.25] has left #lisp 19:53:07 Drunk Scot is redundant, no? 19:54:02 boo 19:54:02 pleonastic 19:55:13 -!- faure [n=moe@CPE001217e40caa-CM0018c0c09832.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:56:37 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:58:01 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 19:59:01 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:30 *fusss* just realized that most significant digit in the decimal representation of universal-times increases once every 32 years 20:07:15 i have been feeding my timestamp serialization routines some test cases; they seemed to work most of the time, but other times it said my last login was in 1964 20:07:49 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 20:08:27 wchogg [n=wchogg@host-245-3.pubnet.pdx.edu] has joined #lisp 20:08:30 the least-significant increases approximately once per second 20:08:50 fusss: 1964 is a good year i suppose 20:10:54 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:29 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:15:51 mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 20:20:03 paw` [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 20:20:49 -!- paw` [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:20:53 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-79-16.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:21:53 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:26:46 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:27:20 *sigh* 20:27:56 I just commited my project to the work repo along with three different kinds of fasls 20:27:58 fusss: What's the matter? 20:28:22 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:33 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:00 beach: I was already a git moron (git git?) now i am gonna have to do something to remove the fasls 20:30:05 there is a magic incantation for that. 20:31:15 Kototama [n=pierre3@p57A22CEF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:32:15 rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 20:34:27 -!- willb [n=wibenton@compsci-wifi-39.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:36:37 fusss: did you push the changes ? 20:36:41 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:23 Noll_Noll [n=28@c-ee70e253.4542024--62697410.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:38:36 -!- Noll_Noll [n=28@c-ee70e253.4542024--62697410.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 20:40:02 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-48-175.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:41:27 billc [n=billc@24.114.236.37] has joined #lisp 20:41:27 -!- billc [n=billc@24.114.236.37] has quit [Client Quit] 20:41:40 Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:36 krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-73-230.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:46:25 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@92.193.97.204] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:46:49 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:47:20 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-48-175.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:48:11 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:16 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 20:49:32 fe[nl]ix: yep, pushed 20:49:52 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:50:51 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 20:51:01 git filter-branch 20:53:30 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 20:56:15 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@63.107.91.99] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:56:35 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:57:34 is there anyone with a cl-vectors highlight here? (: 20:57:44 highlight? 20:57:56 so we meet again, mr. beane (: 20:58:08 -!- krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-73-230.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:58:10 I wonder how to make a half circle path, as make-circle-path does 20:58:14 for full circles 20:58:28 something that I could give a start angle and end angle 20:58:41 krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-90-73.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:58:51 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:52 *Xach* wrote vecto for a reason 20:59:01 *Xach* is too dumb for cl-vectors 20:59:01 antifuchs: do you mean drawing a circle with segments? 20:59:18 excluding segments from a circle, but yes 20:59:20 -!- chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:59:26 I think that's what I want 20:59:28 Xach: I'd think by the time you were finished writing vecto, you would have had the hang of it 20:59:37 it doesn't seem so very contrived 20:59:48 -!- Jasko3 [n=tjasko@98.235.105.148] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:00:04 docs just mention that the example is made up of half circles (referring to svg), but I have no idea how to make them (: 21:00:20 hefner: vecto works by ignoring many (useful?) things in cl-vectors i didn't understand 21:00:27 hefner: like multi-knot thingamajigs 21:00:54 antifuchs: the naive algorithm would use sin and cos to compute the coordinate of the points. increment by a small angle depending on the radius. 21:01:06 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:01:23 and then I'd mask it with a rectangular clipping region? (-: 21:01:35 antifuchs: no, you just start and stop and the angle you want. 21:01:56 ok, so basically, do what I want to avoid (-: 21:01:59 antifuchs: i don't get your question. could you draw a picture? 21:02:34 http://projects.tuxee.net/cl-vectors/section-dictionary#make-circle-path has a picture already: I want cl-vectors to draw me circle segment 21:02:57 like the upper half circle in the picture 21:03:13 (except it's an ellipse segment. no matter) 21:03:17 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:03:21 antifuchs: otherwise there are optimized algorithms to draw circles, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midpoint_circle_algorithm 21:03:23 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 21:03:32 willb [n=wibenton@compsci-wifi-39.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 21:04:03 Well usually they're rather drawn pixel by pixel, otherwise you'd use very small segments, and it wouldn't really be worthwhile to use segments. 21:04:04 antifuchs: use MAKE-ARC 21:04:15 Unless you have a specific need. 21:04:28 antifuchs: circle segments are called arcs 21:04:59 kpreid: that gives me an interpolation, not a path, though 21:05:06 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:21 well, I don't know cl-vectors but the example seems to show producing a path 21:05:57 it's a path with two points and an arc interpolation between them 21:06:05 yes, so? 21:06:41 but yeah. I'd have to find out how to get points on the ellipse from the start and end angles, though (which I'd hoped cl-vectors could take care of) 21:06:58 pfft, that's just sin and cos 21:07:03 or expt :-) 21:07:19 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.68.56] has joined #lisp 21:07:23 right. let me re-implement this piece of cl-vector's functionality real quick (: 21:07:27 it does seem like a funny interface as the ONLY option... 21:07:55 antifuchs: you can find the limiting points with sin/cos, and the apply the octant drawing algorithm. 21:08:01 thing is, internals use arcs anyway for the circle. so I might just patch cl-vectors to expose this to me 21:09:41 well, there is cl-vectors::svg-arc-parameters/reverse which does exactly the conversion I need it to do 21:09:47 -!- Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:10:55 thanks for the hand-holding (: 21:11:44 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:02 -!- fusss [i=738000f2@gateway/web/freenode/x-e5a0529726af8308] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 21:14:35 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:14:40 DrForr_ [n=drforr@pool-173-55-19-85.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:08 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.7.237] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:17:58 elbeno did a lot of that for vecto, and i only exposed a little part of it 21:18:06 i think his library is more general 21:18:26 which is that? (: 21:19:01 macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:19:11 *Xach* tries to find it 21:19:34 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:19:40 http://www.elbeno.com/blog/?p=470 21:20:45 love the friendly and grateful tone in the third comment (: 21:20:47 thanks! 21:21:19 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:21:32 this helps a lot. think I can do this (all that's left to do is a lot of tedious SMsOP) (-: 21:23:02 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:25:31 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-79-16.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:27:33 kpreid: I believe the funniness comes from trying to be conceptually compatible with svg 21:27:39 it exposes the same interface to make-arc 21:27:50 -!- francisco [n=fhc@bl4-90-249.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:28:19 -!- DrForr [n=drforr@pool-173-55-19-85.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:31:31 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:31:41 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 21:34:03 okflo` [n=user@91-115-91-44.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 21:34:14 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 21:34:54 -!- okflo` [n=user@91-115-91-44.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:35:18 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:36:06 asksol [n=ask@91.208.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:37:25 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:38:39 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.167.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:40:54 -!- hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit ["leaving"] 21:41:44 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:49 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-10791.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:42:03 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 21:50:38 -!- willb [n=wibenton@compsci-wifi-39.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:51:29 -!- okflo [n=user@91-115-90-13.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:57:01 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:59:04 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:01:35 -!- jpl3 [n=John@srb-wlan-12.AirBears.Berkeley.EDU] has left #lisp 22:02:24 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-79-16.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:03:14 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:04:23 proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 22:05:59 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:08:49 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:58 billc [n=billc@24.114.236.36] has joined #lisp 22:09:12 -!- billc [n=billc@24.114.236.36] has quit [Client Quit] 22:14:56 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:17:57 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.68.56] has quit [] 22:18:17 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:19:45 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590e8c60.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:21:11 -!- asksol [n=ask@91.208.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:22:21 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 22:26:18 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:26:39 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:35 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:29:03 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.68.56] has joined #lisp 22:30:01 Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:40 gh7d395pi69wd [n=asdf@unaffiliated/gh7d395pi69wd] has joined #lisp 22:31:51 -!- mdavid [n=mdavid@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:36:46 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@host-245-3.pubnet.pdx.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:39:46 > (lambda () (let ((x (list 1 2 3))) (declare (dynamic-extent x)) x)) > (funcall *) => (NIL . 1) shouldn't SBCL not stack allocate here? (and give a warning saying "couldn't stack allocate.." or some such) 22:40:35 debug 3, safety 2, space 0, speed 3 22:41:00 hi 22:41:10 antifuchs: have you found the answer for the circle with cl-vectors? 22:41:17 cods: hi there! 22:41:44 cods: I have found the function that can do the conversion from start-angle/delta-angle to svg-based notation 22:41:57 so this should work... I just wish it was documented and external (: 22:42:03 erm, exported 22:44:32 I think I added svg-arc-parameters/reverse for symetry with svg-arc-parameters, but it was not used actually. 22:45:21 I had SVG in mind where we know both ends points (when constructing the path) and then only the radius is missing. 22:46:03 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 22:46:56 lnostdal: there is nothing in the spec that even says that safety 3 would do that 22:47:02 you lie to the compiler, you lose 22:52:54 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:53:52 yeah, i see "undefined situation" etc. mentioned 22:54:25 fvw_ [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 22:54:55 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:55:17 -!- fvw_ [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit [Client Quit] 23:01:17 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:02:49 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:05:01 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:07 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 23:05:07 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:36 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:22 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:08:52 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:10:38 wow. it's great when you impress yourself with how _nice_ your code is, rather than how crappy it is... 23:10:54 -!- Kototama [n=pierre3@p57A22CEF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["leaving"] 23:11:01 non-crappy code? .. that's unpossible 23:12:09 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:13:00 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:14:37 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:06 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:15:27 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:18:58 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 23:22:39 *Xach* got to deliver a lisp app for a work project today; translates phone switch config text dump into something that can be easily queried for reports. 23:22:44 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:25:48 lnostdal: yes, sbcl should give a warning about that situation, because it would be helpful for users. 23:25:56 lnostdal: I suspect patches would be accepted. :) 23:26:34 aye :) 23:32:13 lisp apps for work projects. that would be... very strange 23:33:05 then fun and work would be hard to distinguish 23:33:23 macdice: you know, that's not as much of a problem as you might think... 23:33:29 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:33:48 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:33:50 TR2N [i=email@89.180.211.108] has joined #lisp 23:35:38 where i work it is almost impossible to use third party software that hasn't been purchased by purchasing, which is almost almost impossible 23:36:04 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:08 *lnostdal* is reminded of this; https://www.getafreelancer.com/projects/C-C-Java/Lisp-Developers-Lisp-Really-Yes.397231.html .. see the "Note to "Lispers"" section .. x) 23:37:56 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:15 lnostdal: at 5-7.5$/hour, he's already excluded any sane person. 23:39:04 <[df]> idgi 23:39:09 wowsers 23:39:35 ahaha 23:39:51 yeah, living in a tent would be hard @ 5-7.5$/hour x) 23:39:58 even* 23:42:03 "I would require $1000- $1500 for working 200 hours per month without any benefits whatsoever." - I think he's just trying to annoy the European Parliament 23:43:23 "you would not receive more of your local currency if the US dollar were to strengthen against your local currency, but conversely you would receive less of your local currency if the US dollar were to weaken against your local currency" 23:43:23 the majority of the respondents were outside the US were that would be illegal now since the minimum wage is $7.5 23:43:27 bastard 23:43:29 Even by the standards of freelancing sites, half minimum wage is sort of ridiculous 23:43:39 Hehe 23:43:50 <[df]> but... is it a joke? 23:43:59 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit ["leaving"] 23:44:00 "Lispers seem to be a breed of uber-nerds (super nerds) who are extremely clever in some ways but utterly foolish in others. Lisp is an excellent language for developing software but generally I find Lispers to be arrogant, annoying, and not worth dealing with. (Of course if you were to ask a Lisper who has dealt with me, he would probably tell you I'm arrogant, annoying, and not worth dealing with)." 23:44:16 He want lisp developers, especially those with no experience of lisp 23:44:36 it's just an illustration of the nature of the economic system prevailing, if that could work a lot of people would be doing and the actual supporting wage rate for competent labor would collapse 23:44:37 GULLIBLE ones 23:44:52 *doing it 23:45:02 i think it's pretty clear that he's not trying to hire anyone in the US 23:45:23 but the opposite of that is what is actually happenning 23:45:28 "If I reject you and if you are wise you will use rejection to build character and humility; if you are foolish you will become enraged and bitter because your pride has been wounded." - I think this might be Xah Lee 23:45:49 (the Archimedes Plutonium of computers) 23:46:21 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:46:46 <[df]> but what's the punchline? 23:46:47 is lemonodor's page essentially THE lsp of which all others are versions? 23:46:53 *package 23:47:10 *rsynnott* would love to know what the project is 23:48:06 the employer has 9.93 out of 10 as a rating, from 107 votes. i have no idea how hard that is to get but it sounds good 23:48:16 "Therefore, if you are a Lisper, unless you are an unusual Lisper, please don't apply for this job. " - there are _usual_ ones? 23:48:16 *where that would be illegal 23:48:20 maybe he hired himself, macdice 23:48:52 I'm reasonably sure this job offer would be illegal nearly anywhere in the developed world 23:49:12 no that's overreaching 23:49:35 https://www.getafreelancer.com/users/feedback_218576.html 23:49:36 It specifies a period of at least one year, but is pretending to be contract work 23:49:56 also, it's below the minimum wage of most developed countries, and too many hours for most developed countries 23:50:52 it's beneath a common world standard for technical labor but there are many jurisdictions where it would not only be legal but common 23:51:04 JuanDaugherty: but not in the developed world 23:51:10 but as you say not developed countries 23:51:51 <[df]> even so it's dodgy 23:51:53 (I think even a number of less developed world countries take offense to the employer pretending the employee is a contractor thing) 23:51:59 <[df]> why would you do it that way? 23:52:01 (it has tax implications) 23:52:23 [df]: I think the person who wrote it may actually be insane 23:52:29 he writes like a mad perso 23:52:30 n 23:52:34 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-235.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:52:36 <[df]> rsynnott: sounds feasible 23:52:56 the apps seem to be about google maps: https://www.getafreelancer.com/users/218576.html 23:53:00 <[df]> I was going for him being a troll and/or bad comedian 23:53:04 no not insane, dull and crude, but a fairly common "businessman" persona in the US 23:53:44 probably fairly uncommon in western europe 23:54:26 I think this may be him: http://patrickwilsonwelsh.com/ 23:54:50 JuanDaugherty: he writes like a standard internet loon, though 23:54:54 here is a really funny job: someone has completed a job, and he wants him to do a spoken screencast explaining his code and his state of mind so future programmers can understand it: https://www.getafreelancer.com/projects/Java/For-termanli-only-May.html :-) 23:55:56 interesting technique. i've often wished i'd had a 'state of mind' video from programmers who worked on stuff i've had to fix/maintain 23:56:42 <[df]> that actually reminds me of a control freak boss I once had 23:57:03 "You must *not* simply narrate a static screen. You must use actual screencast software." - NONE OF THESE FAKE SCREENCASTS 23:57:31 ah, from the sub-minimum-wage job: "Like I mentioned, I prefer gold and silver, but we are stuck for now using money that, in large part, literally grows on trees." 23:57:32 <[df]> YOU WILL DO WHAT I SAY 23:57:35 That explains a lot 23:58:33 lemonodor doesn't hang here anymore? 23:59:47 i think it's a fairly direct attempt to hire programmers in developing countries. cost of living arbitrage. it's not exactly dishonest