00:00:41 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.227.106] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:02:53 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 00:03:21 and yes after 5 years of playing with lisp on and off and 6 month serious stuff i still consider my self a newby ...writing lisp code is one thing ...writing lispy lisp code is another 00:05:20 out of curiosity, what kind of applications is it, and in what implementation? 00:06:01 sbcl + hunchentoot +postmodern 00:07:34 ah, webapp.. ok. 00:07:44 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslhh233.osnanet.de] has quit ["http://github.com/bakkdoor/rswing/"] 00:08:01 yeah web app works pest for those monthly payment s ;) 00:08:22 best...eish typing is up too... 00:08:48 http://jng.imagine27.com/articles/2009-07-22-134405_generating_pi_in_cl.html 00:08:57 Generating PI in CL 00:09:01 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-48-160.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:09:49 CCL needs 5.8 seconds without optimization on my MacBook Pro 00:09:55 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 00:10:01 my Lisp Machine needs 390 seconds 00:10:11 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-67.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 00:10:48 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-21-24.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:10:54 joswig: do you post as lispm on reddit ? 00:10:59 so the laptop is roughly 65 times faster 00:11:01 yes 00:11:18 allright 00:13:08 joswig: hmm. 5.8 secs? is that really right? 00:13:22 yes, why not? 00:13:58 joswig: is that physical lisp machine or a virtual one?...when ever i imagine a a lisp machine i end up seeing a old as400 or system 36 machine... 00:14:39 TR2N [i=email@89.180.164.181] has joined #lisp 00:14:43 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:14:48 physical 00:15:06 pizza box size 00:15:06 kewl 00:15:12 wow 00:15:16 never seen one 00:15:24 X-Scale [i=email@89.180.164.181] has joined #lisp 00:15:58 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.164.181] has left #lisp 00:16:05 ah, wrong argument. with 10000 digits on a U10 (333Mhz sparc) and SCL i get around 65 secs. 00:16:06 the computer under the old laptop 00:16:07 http://lispm.dyndns.org/lisp/pics/nxp1000-1.jpg 00:17:12 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 00:17:24 -!- kmels-away is now known as kmels 00:18:53 eish that is amaizing...well in my frame of reference anyways... how did ibm get away with selling monstrosities that fill a sever room for so many years then? 00:20:10 Harag: the nxp1000 is relatively modern. the older lispms were giant too 00:20:18 ok 00:20:28 (1992 apparently) 00:20:54 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 00:21:16 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:21 wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d817b0e.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 00:21:25 joswig: heh, very nice machine. a machine like that as desktop would do wonders for my procastination. :) 00:22:20 well in 1994 i was still doing work on as400 tha where the size of a fridge 00:23:10 the NXP1000 does not have a graphics card, you use it via X11 00:23:22 it was based on an embedded Lisp Machine design 00:24:26 joswig: do you actually use it still or mostly just for fun? 00:24:32 several Lisp Machines were relatively small 00:24:53 -!- HOH_HOH_HOH_HOH is now known as quartzo 00:25:00 http://lispm.dyndns.org/lisp/pics/3600family.jpg 00:25:14 the machine on the left is of PC tower size 00:25:38 http://lispm.dyndns.org/lisp/pics/XL1201x2.jpg 00:25:57 above there are two machine of a larger pizza box size 00:26:40 er..."above" aren't machines, those are displays... 00:26:53 hypno: hacking with it is fun, its only documentation is often useful, it has lots of code one can look at... 00:27:25 no, the machines on the right are complete Lisp Machines 00:27:50 the have two VMEbus cards inside, one for the processor and one for the I/O 00:28:13 Adamant [n=Adamant@66.213.192.210] has joined #lisp 00:28:17 the ones on the right that are fridge sized you mean? :) 00:28:38 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:28:54 the fridge sized is huge, but that's a very old one 00:30:17 anyway, for fun you could run the PI code and post execution time here: 00:30:19 http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/93ofv/how_fast_does_your_lisp_compute_10000_digits_of_pi/ 00:30:23 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:02 joswig: does that imply there is a lisp X11 implementation? 00:32:57 rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 00:33:46 it is an X11 client 00:34:10 You use your X11 server on what ever box you have and connect to the Lispm 00:34:33 the Lispm translates its UI to X11 00:34:36 joswig: very nice! 00:35:11 it NXP1000 sits somewhere, headless 00:35:55 the Lispms with graphics cards had an X11 server, too, but that one was the original X11 server in C 00:36:30 joswig: are those lisp boxes yours? 00:36:35 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-140-164.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:37:12 the two xl1201? unfortunately not. They were at the MIT AI Lab. 00:37:19 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:37:50 the NXP100 is mine, and I also have a working MacIvory 00:37:54 why don't we have commercial lisp machines anymore 00:38:24 *madnificent* is jealous :) 00:38:33 because you can now run Lisp quite nicely on most machines 00:38:39 joswig: are they reasonably fast (and how were they in their time?) 00:39:05 we got free virtual lisp machines instead :) 00:39:20 lnostdal: virtual :( 00:39:23 I just mentioned that my MacBook Pro is for the 10000 digit pi calculation is 65 times faster using CCL 00:39:36 unfree 00:39:51 the VLM is unfree ;-) 00:40:11 wha? .. sbcl is free :) 00:40:12 heh 00:40:26 sbcl is really free! 00:40:34 joswig: for comparison, I just ran that on SBCL 00:40:39 compiled :> 00:40:40 :) 00:40:57 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:41:06 madnificient: I would say it is the equivalent of 5 MIPS 00:41:11 0.639 seconds of real time. 00:41:24 optimized? 00:41:38 joswig: nope, just (compile-file "machin-pi") 00:41:45 (load "machin-pi") 00:41:58 and then (time ...) 00:42:04 *_3b* gets about the same just pasting it into sbcl repl 00:42:11 madnificent, there's cruft and virtualization and indirection everywhere anyway .. the linux kernel has patches for cpu bugs etc. x) 00:42:14 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:42:14 okay 00:42:20 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-74-103.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:42:25 "virtualization" 00:42:27 adlai, what kind of machine? 00:43:16 Linux adlai-t400 2.6.30-ARCH #1 SMP PREEMPT Sat Jul 4 02:24:43 CEST 2009 x86_64 Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU P8600 @ 2.40GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux 00:43:26 that's "uname -a" 00:43:37 yay arch :D 00:43:56 I'm still adjusting to my new system, hehe. I guess sbcl has adjusted faster than I have. O_o 00:43:58 -!- Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 00:44:35 the fastest sbcl on my machine (I get very different runtimes) is 1.2 seconds 00:45:36 joswig: the output from the time macro does say that it used 99.69% of my processor power 00:45:55 yes, I had different lower numbers for that 00:46:22 I guess part of it is that I'm running the program on a completely fresh install of a very minimalistic distro 00:46:38 where is the benchmark? 00:46:53 http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/93ofv/how_fast_does_your_lisp_compute_10000_digits_of_pi/ 00:46:57 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:46:59 anybody know how to copy out of urxvt? 00:48:08 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-112-40.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:43 urxvt beeing some sort of terminal i take it? if so, just marking text with the mouse and click mouse-button 3 to paste work? 00:48:56 Adlai: have you ever tried terminal from xfce? I used to use urxvt but I greatly prefer it 00:49:15 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:36 you can remove all of the things from the interface etc so you're just left with a pane as well, the config is pretty good 00:50:29 joswig: do you want me to post my timing as well? 00:50:36 sure 00:50:50 don't forget to upvote the article 00:51:33 1.630 seconds of real time 00:51:50 add yourself to the list 00:52:24 1.510 seconds of real time if I (progn (time etc) nil) 00:52:50 not a reddit member 00:53:37 *Adlai* is now a reddit member => AdlaiOnReddit 00:53:59 drafael: lisp type and machine type? 00:54:03 Linux Whimsy 2.6.30-ARCH #1 SMP PREEMPT Fri Jun 19 20:44:03 UTC 2009 x86_64 Intel(R) Pentium(R) Dual CPU T2370 @ 1.73GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux anyway with SBCL 1.0.28 00:54:08 joswig: fwiw, I made bignum multiplication faster on 64-bit ccl about 9 months ago; those improvements never made it into CCL 1.2, which is pretty old these days. 00:54:39 but there is no 1.3 released, yet? 00:54:44 *rtoym* finally fixes simple-streams for cmucl unicode. 00:54:58 1.3 has been out for ages! 00:55:11 indeed. 00:55:19 oh, bullshit, it is 1.3-r12235M 00:56:01 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:14 drafael, what SBCL version? 00:56:18 *ilitirit* loves CCL -- i have full Lispworks and Allegro at work, so access to everything but CCL is somehow clean and nice 00:56:48 I see it 00:57:03 joswig: on the end, sbcl 1.0.28 00:57:06 There's a pretty fast pi algorithm in Lisp in maxima. 00:57:35 I'll run it on my server as well 00:58:24 For the record, ccl 1.3 was released on April 13, 2009. I hope to do a 1.4 soon. 00:58:34 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-125-158.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:58:36 rme, I was confused 00:59:25 ilitirit: agreed! :> 00:59:26 :) 00:59:41 rme: how is the GUI improved action going? 00:59:46 *Adlai* needs to get used to his new keymap, () are where <> were in Dvorak 00:59:52 joswig: posted 01:00:07 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:00:18 adlai, you might want to upvote the article ;-) 01:00:25 ilitirit pasted "Lisp compiler test" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84039 01:00:57 ilitirit annotated #84039 "CCL (just before 1.3)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84039#1 01:00:59 joswig: It's improved significantly, but UI stuff takes so much time to get really nice. 01:01:09 0.822 seconds of real time on 'Linux ... 2.6.29-linode18 #1 SMP Wed Apr 1 20:22:21 EDT 2009 i686 Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU L5420 @ 2.50GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux' using SBCL 1.0.28 01:01:14 ilitirit annotated #84039 "SBCL 1.0.25" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84039#2 01:01:17 joswig: I think I did, but I'm new to reddit. What do I need to do? 01:01:54 click the up arrow on the article, upper left corner of the browser ;-) 01:02:33 rme, why does (did) CCL generate such bad code for this simple logandc2? or am i confused? 01:02:34 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:03:45 drafael, thanks, I added your data to my list 01:04:15 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:05:10 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:30 -!- kmels is now known as kmels-cena 01:05:43 ccl doesn't do the kind of type inference that the cmucl/sbcl compiler does. in cases like this, cmucl/sbcl really shines. 01:06:28 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:07:01 rme: ccl's compiler generates code much faster, though. While I'm in the middle of working on a project, I prefer having quicker feedback from Lisp. I can compile for speed if I need to later... 01:07:11 (thus, I like ccl) 01:07:20 Well, I like it also. 01:07:38 rme, why is any type inference needed? lispworks and allegro both produce reasonable code for this logandc1 01:07:39 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:07:53 rme: you're one of the developers? 01:08:28 Adlai: yes 01:08:40 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 01:08:53 to use the vernacular, "mad respect." 01:09:10 and thank you, too. 01:10:09 yes, thanks for all your hard work rme, i really appreciate ccl and its unusual and great gc 01:10:33 ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 01:10:41 What's unusual with ccl's gc? 01:10:57 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:11:19 Well, thanks, but I'm just a nobody. Others have worked on it much longer; I'm just the new guy. 01:14:22 good that there are new guys! 01:14:24 gbyers (and gz, and others) should get the mad respect 01:15:30 they let me do the x8632 port because nobody else wanted to 01:15:31 you had one of the better quips at ilc though. 01:16:40 yeah, the x8632 port was tough luck ;-) 01:16:59 Xach: Your stack-frame puppy was a pretty big hit... 01:17:41 rtoym, it doesn't do lots of mmap'ing of nonsense oldspaces for example (if i understand it correctly) 01:18:18 rtoym: the ccl gc is somewhat unusual in that it's a mark-compact collector that manages a single contiguous region of memory. 01:18:56 rtoym: read gbyers's replies in this thread: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.openmcl.devel/4281 01:19:48 Thanks, everyone. 01:20:29 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 01:22:44 jchicas_ [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 01:23:05 -!- kmels-cena is now known as kmels 01:23:26 -!- jchicas_ [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit [Client Quit] 01:26:37 Hmm, kinda a general macro question - if I define a variable through (defvar) and want to access that variable through the macro, is there any way to somehow do that? 01:27:44 TDT, the variable would have to be bound during compile time. 01:27:55 (which is when the macro would probably be expanded) 01:28:00 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:28 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 01:28:46 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-6d1df738631a734e] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:28:47 Yeah, I kinda thought that to a degree - not sure if it's best to just keep it less DRY and just repeat elements I want to test for..which may make more intuitive sense. 01:28:52 so generally, no, although you could theoretically put the defvar form inside an eval-when. 01:29:28 -!- nerdshark [n=dorkfish@74-131-32-72.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit ["WeeChat 0.3.0-rc2"] 01:29:29 what about referencing the variable in your macroexpansion? 01:29:34 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has left #lisp 01:29:43 code examples would help at this point; 01:29:48 minion: tell TDT about lisppaste 01:29:49 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 01:30:42 Yeah, I tend to post a lot of stuff here - haha. I don't really have a solid code example I can give, but I can write one up quick. The only problem with referencing the variable through the expansion is if the variable is a list, and I want the elements of the list, then that's not available during that expansion 01:30:57 especially since I was thinking of a loop for this...I'll post what I was thinking, even though it's horribly broken right now. 01:31:38 ok 01:34:47 TDT pasted "Macro expansion and variables" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84042 01:34:52 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:35:15 parens may be off a bit, I removed quite a bit of code and kinda watered down this idea some to make it easier to read. 01:35:48 What I did in the main library is just have a macro for defining a command, and use a similar loop to define the commands. 01:35:55 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-111.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:35:58 What Im now just working with is the idea of unit testing everything. 01:36:28 TDT: your format string is broken, btw 01:36:49 Yeah, work in progress, and heavily modified before posting..lol. 01:36:52 ok 01:37:28 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 01:37:44 it looks to me like you just want to wrap an eval-when around (defvar *git-cmds* ...) 01:38:18 You know at compile-time what commands/tests you want to define, right? You just want the macro to generate the code for each one? 01:38:22 bdowning_ [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:31 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:52 Yeah, the commands are actually in a different package so that's where I was hoping to pull them out eventually 01:38:57 So define once. 01:39:57 The concept of DRY and all that, I know it can be taken too far - is that kinda the rabbit hole I'm sitting in right now? 01:40:16 Kinda making sure I'm not going too overboard on all this. 01:40:23 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:40 I guess it depends on what define-test does. 01:41:50 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-72.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:42:24 If you're generating completely different code for each test, then it's probably going overboard to write a hugely complicated macro where each "special case" gets called once. 01:42:32 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 01:43:44 But if there really is a pattern for each test that you can just "map" over each symbol using that macro, then I think it's ok. Just remember that the behavior of the macro will depend on whatever *git-cmds* is bound to _at_compile_time_. 01:43:45 yeah. i would probably do: (git :command args) and implement the git stuff in clos with specializers. you can of course make a macro that generates that tho. 01:44:13 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:32 Well this particular test I define a condition for each type of git command I'm supporting - this test, in the end, would test those conditions to verify that they exist. 01:44:45 that macrolet usage is a bit odd, too. I've never seen something like that before... 01:44:50 -!- arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:45:01 Where is *git-cmds* coming from? 01:45:07 Yeah, a similar use was suggest by someone else here for a differnet problem and I kinda stuck with it 01:45:37 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:56 *git-cmds* is defined through a define-git-command which will define a condition off a new type, as add this to a global list 01:47:00 sounds like it's not known at compile time. I'm not sure how it'll work out to reference it in a macro like that. 01:47:08 The global list is checked during the execution method, to verify that something like this exists, and then executes it through streams 01:47:10 rouslan [n=Rouslan@pool-70-109-137-208.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:10 heh, this library is teaching me a lot, too bad it's taking months to complete - but I think for now I'll just redefine the commands in the loop - would make it much easier to see what's going on, what's being generated. 01:48:20 where do u get a lisp compiler 01:48:36 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 01:49:04 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 01:49:41 pizzledizzle: There are many good Common Lisp compilers available today. 01:49:48 pizzledizzle: you mean, to take a lisp program and create an executable out of it, or to just runit easily from the shell? 01:50:05 A few that do both of those are SBCL and CCL. 01:50:07 cool .. saving one's current broken work doing git commit .. then "reset master branch to here" .. then wanting to go back turns out to be impossible 01:50:14 minion, tell pizzledizzle about CCL 01:50:14 pizzledizzle: please see CCL: OpenMCL is now called Clozure Common Lisp (CCL). http://www.cliki.net/CCL 01:50:23 minion: tell pizzledizzle about SBCL 01:50:23 pizzledizzle: direct your attention towards SBCL: Steel Bank Common Lisp is an open source / free software Common Lisp implementation. http://www.cliki.net/SBCL 01:50:24 -!- joswig [n=joswig@e177144227.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 01:50:37 Both of those are open-source. 01:50:42 1 days work gone 01:51:03 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Client Quit] 01:51:26 lnostdal: If it's in the history, just do a git cat operationon the file on thatoperation and cat it back into the file you need to revert back and then recommit. 01:51:43 oh 01:52:33 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:52:34 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 01:52:44 git reset is a bad idea unless you really know the state of your code as well, and if ever in doubt create a branch first of your code, play with it to make sure you got it, then merge back into master. 01:53:48 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:53:48 *sigh* .. i'll just start doing rsync all the time .. this crap is just too much of a hassle 01:54:20 -!- bdowning_ is now known as bdowning 01:54:26 million of tempdirs 01:54:30 that's the way to go 01:55:33 Once you get a handle on git, it's an amazing piece of software. 01:55:49 I use git for everything here...heck, I version my emacs config files, settings with git...heh 01:56:46 -!- dreish_ [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 01:57:14 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5473/undoing-a-git-reset-hard-head1 01:57:44 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has joined #lisp 01:58:07 yay .. code is back to its old brokenness .. haaaa x) 01:58:43 Should I use SBCL or CCL? 01:59:03 -!- konr [n=konrad@189.98.36.219] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:59:05 Currently I'm using CLISP, but apparently nobody talks about it. 01:59:34 There's nothing wrong with clisp. sbcl and ccl are good choices too. 01:59:37 pjb: talk about CLISP, please 02:00:02 minion: tell me about CLISP 02:00:02 seisatsu: direct your attention towards CLISP: CLISP is a Common Lisp implementation by Bruno Haible of Karlsruhe University and Michael Stoll of Munich University, both in Germany. http://www.cliki.net/CLISP 02:00:13 hmm 02:00:15 ok 02:00:29 is minion an irc bot written in CL? 02:00:36 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:00:45 minion: version 02:00:46 This is the minion bot, running on a X86 (Intel(R) Pentium(R) D CPU 3.00GHz) and running under SBCL 1.0.1. 02:00:51 o.o 02:01:40 minion: tell me about ecl 02:01:40 seisatsu: direct your attention towards ecl: Embeddable Common Lisp, a member of the KCL Family, is a Common Lisp implementation initially developed by Giuseppe Attardi and currently maintained by Juan Jose Garcia-Ripoll. http://www.cliki.net/ecl 02:01:52 minion: tell me about abcl 02:01:53 seisatsu: please see abcl: ABCL is either Armed Bear Lisp or a family of languages for distributed programming by Akinori Yonezawa. http://www.cliki.net/abcl 02:01:57 wat 02:01:59 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has joined #lisp 02:02:01 armed bear 02:02:10 minion: tell me about cmucl 02:02:10 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 02:02:11 seisatsu: please see cmucl: CMUCL is a high-performance, free (mostly Public Domain) Common Lisp implementation that aims towards ANSI compatibility and runs on a number of Unix platforms - including Linux/ix86, Linux/Alpha, FreeBSD/ix86, NetBSD/ix86, OpenBSD/ix86, Solaris/SPARC, HP-UX/HPPA, and IRIX/MIPS - though not all of these ports are current. http://www.cliki.net/cmucl 02:02:19 hmm 02:03:48 minion: tell me about muffins 02:03:48 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``muffins''. 02:03:51 :/ 02:04:03 he doesn't like muffins, apparently. ;-; 02:06:06 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:06:10 seisatsu: it's actually quite interesting, he searches CLiki for answers when he doesn't know a term. 02:07:04 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-159-185.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:07:29 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:08:02 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:08:50 I've currently read through chapter 4 of PCL 02:09:39 seisatsu: how do you like it so far? 02:12:42 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-153-95.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:13:11 yup 02:13:19 lisp is neat. 02:13:38 seisatsu: I recommend Clozure as a good compiler 02:13:43 it works an all platforms too. 02:13:52 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-127-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:23 minion: tell me about clozure 02:14:24 seisatsu: direct your attention towards clozure: Clozure Common Lisp (CCL) is the new name for OpenMCL. http://www.cliki.net/clozure 02:15:00 aww 02:15:10 cone [n=cone@pool-96-226-97-250.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:17 ArchLinux doesn't have a Clozure package. 02:15:23 I'd have to compile it myself. 02:15:47 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:15:50 Anyway, I already have SBCL AND CLISP installed 02:16:00 seisatsu, I think there is a package in the AUR. 02:16:06 and I've been using clisp. 02:16:13 seisatsu: I built Clozure myself too, it's not hard. 02:16:19 seisatsu, http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=25565 02:16:53 seisatsu: it has a clozure package in AUR that's fairly easy to build. 02:16:57 specially if you use yaourt. 02:17:07 damn. Arch seems to be the latest rage. 02:17:11 and here I thought I was being indie. 02:17:12 :\ 02:17:18 hehe 02:17:22 lol 02:17:32 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:19:09 sykopomp, Is there a source package for clozure? The only one I can find is a binary. 02:19:30 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:19:39 dwh: includes source, I believe 02:19:46 dwh: I thought you didn't -want- to have to build it :P 02:19:54 and yes, I believe it includes sources. 02:19:59 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 02:20:01 but you don't have to bootstrap taht package. 02:20:02 sykopomp: sources are very useful sometimes, as you know. 02:21:16 sykopomp, Well the binary is from the clozure site, so it isn't a problem. Worst thing is a binary package where the binary is on some random person's site. 02:21:41 Are most lisp implementations written in lisp? 02:21:48 dwh: well, yes. 02:22:11 seisatsu: usually there's a core in C, and the entire rest is written in Lisp and bootstrapped by the core in some manner. 02:22:25 I don't really understand how a custom-packaged ccl could be all that much easier to install than a direct svn checkout. Plus, it's easier to keep the svn checkout up-to-date. 02:22:53 seisatsu: I don't think -most-. SBCL is. I believe CCL is as well, but there's ECL and clisp, which are written in C, ABCL, which runs on the JVM, etc. 02:22:58 I don't know about the commercial ones. 02:23:47 o.o 02:23:56 are there any modern lisp machines? 02:24:12 -!- maxote [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:24:37 seisatsu: no, modern Lisp implementations on stock hardware perform well enough. 02:24:55 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:25:01 Oh. Just thought it would be interesting. 02:25:14 Like, there are still BASIC machines being made 02:25:29 namely the BASIC stamp for educational robotics. 02:25:45 seisatsu: They're also still making some cars over in the USA... :) 02:25:58 namely the BASIC stamp for educational robotics. 02:25:58 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 02:26:01 oops 02:26:16 s/'namely the BASIC stamp for educational robotics.'/lol 02:26:19 >_> 02:26:27 Are the .svn directories intentionally left in the clozure releases? 02:26:51 aren't those made by SVN when you download a revision? 02:27:01 wakeup_vanuber [n=wakeup@koln-5d815ccb.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 02:27:57 dwh: yes. the release tar archives intentionally contain the svn metainformation so that you can svn up and do (rebuild-ccl :full t) 02:28:15 kenjin [n=kenjin@221.162.108.236] has joined #lisp 02:28:16 rme, Fair enough. 02:28:39 -!- kenjin is now known as Guest74203 02:29:23 TDT, maybe a log-based file system is something someone like me should look into .. i do not have the time/patience/whatever to sit down and read through the manual of a version-control-system anymore .. probably a shame seeing as in gits case it'd probably actually be worth it :P 02:29:32 How do I escape from infinite loop in SLIME? 02:29:47 C-c C-c 02:30:24 lnostdal: Git is worth it, there's a really fast book called "git from the bottom up", which is great. 02:30:28 I've tried it but it didn't seem to work well sometimes 02:30:33 maxote [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 02:30:37 It's a fast read too and explains a lot of this kinda stuff from a theory point of view, which is pretty interesting. 02:31:13 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:19 TDT, Is it a git implementation or git bridge in lisp you're building? 02:31:35 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:31:57 git implementation, more how to use it kinda. 02:32:09 The bridge is kinda without a manual, but the git from the bottom up book helps 02:32:22 -!- Guest74203 [n=kenjin@221.162.108.236] has quit [Client Quit] 02:32:29 konr [n=konrad@189.98.88.189] has joined #lisp 02:32:40 TDT, whot? -- ohyesplease .. a lisp based interface for git would be awesome 02:32:56 lnostdal: lol yeah, it's what I've been working on for a few months :) 02:33:19 awesome .. heh .. i hate fiddling around in the terminals .. the repl is much nicer :) 02:34:31 just prod me in about a week, going on vacation and gonna write this to a working state then 02:34:55 TDT: I hope the project is on Github? :D 02:35:22 nigugamesh [n=nigugame@c83-251-39-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 02:36:18 Yeah it is 02:36:58 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has joined #lisp 02:37:04 http://github.com/TheDarkTrumpet/cl-gitinterface/tree/master 02:37:46 It's not in a working condition, well not fully anyways..a week!, well week and a half hah. 02:37:55 hehe 02:42:43 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has quit ["leaving"] 02:42:54 -!- wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d817b0e.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:43:10 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has joined #lisp 02:44:42 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.73.39] has joined #lisp 02:45:14 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 02:48:34 is there an easy way to convert an integer to a bit-vector of its binary representation? 02:49:44 xinming__ [n=hyy@125.109.73.144] has joined #lisp 02:49:53 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 02:50:59 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-111.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:12 -!- ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 02:52:34 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-145-107.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:57 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:02 (read-from-string (format nil "#b~b" n)) :-) 02:54:24 is that the fastest? 02:54:36 fe[nl]ix: Were you asking about errors in building simple streams in cmucl? If so, I think that's fixed now. 02:54:46 xinming_1 [n=hyy@125.109.247.222] has joined #lisp 02:55:12 leo2007: I doubt it. There are lots of ways, but that's pretty easy to remember and do. 02:56:27 (dotimes (k (integer-length n)) (setf (aref bit-vector k) (if (logbitp n k) 1 0))) 02:56:30 [Untested] 02:57:24 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.134.86] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:58:27 -!- Drakeson` [n=user@75-119-236-163.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:58:41 thank you 02:59:45 Drakeson [n=user@75-119-236-163.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:00:44 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-112-40.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:00:52 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has quit ["leaving"] 03:01:26 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 03:01:49 Do you have a suggestion for some keyboard (or emacs) setting modification to insert parens easier? 03:02:05 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 03:02:24 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:04:13 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:06:16 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.73.39] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:06:38 konr1 [n=konrad@200.142.137.236] has joined #lisp 03:07:41 Drakeson: use paredit.el 03:08:07 nerdshark [n=dorkfish@74-131-32-72.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 03:08:40 -!- xinming__ [n=hyy@125.109.73.144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:10:20 leo2007: I use it, but I thought you might have even more suggestions. For instance I was thinking about swapping `,' and `.' to `(' and `)', respectively. 03:11:27 some people swap [] to () 03:11:40 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 03:12:05 Drakeson: the default works fine for me so I haven't modified it 03:12:36 foom: thanks 03:13:19 leo2007: I see, thanks. 03:17:32 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-17-232.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 03:20:24 slava: pong 03:20:48 pkhuong: so I was thinking about efficient implementation of 'labels' 03:21:10 in the best case, every local function is only tail-called, and you can merge the whole outer function with the local functions into one CFG 03:21:26 but if there are non-tail calls, then in general you have to make multiple procedures right? 03:21:29 is there a good algorithm for this? 03:24:35 I guess you could do something like Python, with caller-saved registers and custom calling conventions into the procedures. 03:26:45 -!- JimmySkull [n=Ozzy@189.74.90.177] has left #lisp 03:28:02 I don't know how much more complex that makes other analyses on the CFG. I guess it's pretty much just another predecessor for the callee. 03:29:47 -!- konr [n=konrad@189.98.88.189] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:35:01 -!- krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-83-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:35:25 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has joined #lisp 03:35:42 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.194.207] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:37:26 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:38:14 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-a0e3fc44a0de5d82] has joined #lisp 03:47:08 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:12 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-17-232.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:53:31 -!- WaGE [n=WaGE@pool-70-23-80-81.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:01:14 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 04:01:29 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:12:11 -!- segoe [i=3e164621@gateway/web/freenode/x-b371d5311fe3e34f] has quit ["Page closed"] 04:12:45 -!- ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:13:55 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-111.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:14:25 ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 04:16:12 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 04:16:15 morning 04:22:00 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Client Quit] 04:23:26 evening 04:24:12 -!- konr1 [n=konrad@200.142.137.236] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:25:49 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 04:27:51 -!- beach` is now known as beach 04:28:05 Good morning. 04:28:14 Good evening. 04:35:27 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:27 Good afternoon. 04:38:51 Adlai` [n=user@69.181.142.8] has joined #lisp 04:39:17 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:49:29 good evening. 04:50:53 good noon 04:50:54 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.135.1] has joined #lisp 04:52:10 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-194.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:55:17 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has quit ["leaving"] 04:55:55 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.74.79] has joined #lisp 05:07:12 -!- xinming_1 [n=hyy@125.109.247.222] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:10:14 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.135.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:17:59 Demosthenes [n=demo@66.235.80.184] has joined #lisp 05:19:35 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:20:32 s0ber [i=pie@118-160-175-31.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined 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adlai` is now known as leifw 06:06:01 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:06:49 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:08:48 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:09:04 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:09:15 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 06:10:02 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Client Quit] 06:11:10 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has joined #lisp 06:11:12 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 06:12:47 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Client Quit] 06:13:16 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 06:14:02 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:14:48 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-111.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:16:27 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-59-31.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:16:40 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-59-31.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:58 a-s [n=user@92.81.46.25] has joined #lisp 06:23:31 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has quit [] 06:31:17 good morning 06:31:26 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 06:34:04 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-111.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:41:16 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:41:52 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:43:06 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:43:55 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:43:55 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 06:46:22 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:53:30 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-162-201.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:54:57 good morning 06:56:44 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:57:16 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:58:14 jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 06:58:30 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:59:02 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit [Client Quit] 07:00:32 ASau [n=user@host105-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:09:44 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 07:12:41 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-10946.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 07:12:41 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:13:03 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:19 prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:19 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:20:58 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 07:22:00 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:22:24 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 07:23:26 rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 07:23:59 the cl.net page on Cells tells me to go to tiltons original site, but it's missing, where can I find cells documentation? 07:24:13 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:24:45 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 07:25:13 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest44855 07:26:17 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:27:45 I guess the supplied docs will do. 07:28:58 i want to learn about extending emacs. what's a good book for it 07:29:59 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 07:30:52 srcerer_ [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 07:31:32 -!- Guest44855 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 07:31:36 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 07:32:32 pizzledizzle: although you should be asiking that in #emacs, you could try this: 07:33:29 "C-h i" to get to the info directory of emacs 07:33:36 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:33:46 then look about 10 headings down, and you'll see information about Emacs Lisp. 07:35:06 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 07:35:09 Gertm: I used a fork of cells that is on github, it seems to work 07:35:45 Gertm: https://github.com/Ramarren/cells/tree 07:36:42 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:44:53 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 07:46:29 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:46:53 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has quit ["leaving"] 07:47:17 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:47:22 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Success] 07:47:27 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:47:27 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:48:24 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 07:48:32 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:51 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 07:50:05 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 07:51:20 rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 07:52:30 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:53:31 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:54:33 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:57:51 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:57:52 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:01:37 rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 08:03:35 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:06:25 aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has joined #lisp 08:08:18 -!- aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has quit [Client Quit] 08:11:08 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:16:57 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 08:18:46 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 08:19:05 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 08:19:41 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-226-227.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 08:21:45 what's the recommended method for building the latest SBCL? clbuild? 08:22:16 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:22:29 fusss [i=73803373@gateway/web/freenode/x-39e5bf33bc9f018e] has joined #lisp 08:23:28 question, what does one usually convert C enums to in FFI code? I am writing FFIs for a library that uses enums as return value flags. 08:23:52 they're sequential 0 .. N; i was thinking a vector of symbols, for quick lookup 08:23:54 if you already got a sbcl up and running, checking out the source from git then just following the instructions in INSTALL is straightforward (note what is said about enabling thread-support..), Adlai 08:23:59 this is sb-alien 08:25:27 i mean, it can't be as easy as (defvar *flags* (vector :COND_SUCCESS :COND_ERROR :COND_NOT_FOUND :COND_EOF ..)) is it? 08:25:53 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 08:25:55 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:35:13 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 08:35:37 ivan-kanis [n=user@if02t2-89-83-137-164.d4.club-internet.fr] has joined #lisp 08:35:37 i can't believe that sbcl's thread support is still not enabled on certain platforms by default... it's always being mentioned to people, summing up to a huge amount of time. sensible defaults are important... 08:36:10 i also wasted at least 10 sbcl compiles + some time staring at slime being stuck due to this 08:38:47 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 08:38:54 i hope to god sb-alien is doing the right thing underneath me 08:39:31 i have c-string result values which i haven't allocated myself (they're only defined as the result type of the foreign function in define-alien-routine) 08:39:57 am I supposed to call free-alien, even if i have never called make-alien myself? 08:43:39 fusss: why not use CFFI? 08:45:15 no time to learn, really 08:45:22 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-a0e3fc44a0de5d82] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:45:53 that's about the worst strategy to apply when being a programmer... :) 08:45:56 i'd rather use my time learning CFFI instead of sb-alien 08:48:54 jdz: i never learned sb-alien, i have only been using it for 5 years 08:49:15 and you still operate in "i hope it works like this" mode? 08:49:23 attila: i had time, but i wasted it reading blogs 08:50:13 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 08:50:18 you guys want GeoIP API tonight or what? 08:50:30 i am halfway there :-) 08:50:36 ye, gief, the one that runs on CCL and LispWorks too 08:50:49 *sigh* 08:50:50 good point 08:50:56 version 2 will have that 08:51:52 so you have time writing 2 versions of the same library instead of 1, after all? 08:52:09 why not write the version 2 from the start? 08:52:18 sorry, i just don't get this 08:54:19 i am 600 lines deep since this afternoon 08:54:40 alright, scolding me next time. i think sb-alien is going to do the right thing. 08:59:16 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:01:28 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:02:18 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483FE71.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:03:40 hey sbcl on netbsd does not have :sb-posix . That's a bit funny :P 09:06:41 schmx: As long as you are having fun !! 09:06:53 bob_f: hahaha 09:07:20 lnostdal: thanks 09:07:46 jamief [n=jamie@tansur.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:08:09 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229175133.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:08:14 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-10946.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:08:29 attila_lendvai: yes, I had the same problem with the first 4 or 5 times building SBCL... 09:12:02 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:12:17 the binary build provided by sbcl.org doesn't have threads, either 09:13:25 guaqua: that makes sense though, because you don't know what type of hardware it might meet. 09:13:37 the x86 build? 09:13:48 the x86 linux build? 09:13:51 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-79-16.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:14:00 guaqua: could be a single-core? I don't know. Just guessing here. :D 09:14:28 i think attila's point applies here as well 09:15:01 there is use for threads in a uniprocessor computer too 09:15:42 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:22:58 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:25:27 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 09:27:49 jdz: that wasn't bad, really 09:28:04 i would have written a second version anyway 09:28:45 fusss: well, producing something is always better than just talking :) 09:28:53 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-79-16.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:28:57 turns out i didn't need to clone the whole API; just focusing on GeoIPCity would have given me the most precision 09:30:36 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:30:43 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:31:03 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:32:26 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 09:33:31 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 09:37:23 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 09:37:27 stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:18 Quick question, is there a good way to get the total memory usage from within sbcl without parsing the output from room? 09:38:43 shelling out to ps aux ? ;) 09:39:06 Bleh :-P 09:39:17 That's worse 09:39:44 I was hoping for something hidden in sb-ext package 09:39:44 yup 09:39:52 *schmx* has no idea. :) 09:40:46 It feels kind of like hacking perl when you have to redirect the output of a command that only prints to standard-output 09:41:21 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590e81f2.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 09:41:36 It is giving me a very un-lispy feel just thniknig about it. 09:41:57 Sorry about that, my bad. 09:42:03 stipet: Looking at how ROOM is implemented, there's (sb-kernel:dynamic-usage) 09:43:07 *schmx* feels ashamed he did not think of that. 09:43:19 Thank good! 09:43:40 Would (make-instance (intern "foo-class" #.*package*)) be the right way to take a string and make an object of 'foo-class ? 09:43:41 I didn't have sbcl source laying around... 09:43:48 But that works wonders 09:44:38 stipet: That's only what's dynamically allocated, and no guarantees about accuracy. You'd have to wait for one of the lurking experts to wake up. 09:45:36 nunb: Why #.*package*? 09:46:27 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:46:37 I'm not sure I like that. I think you should be explicit and use (load-time-value (find-package :foo)) 09:46:42 yango [n=yango@208.Red-212-170-49.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:20 tcr: I guess it will be good enough for now, thanks :) 09:47:28 alternatively define (defvar +foo-package+ (find-package :foo)) (or ALEXANDRIA:DEFINE-CONSTANT instead of the DEFVAR), and than use (intern "..." +foo-package++) 09:47:48 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-79-16.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:48:38 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 09:49:50 tcr: to use the current package that 'foo-class exists in? anyway, it doesn't work. Is there another way? 09:50:34 #.*package* will not magically be the package that FOO-CLASS is in 09:50:41 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-5-148.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:51:11 It'll be the value of *package* at read-time, meaning the package that the toplevel form is compiled in 09:52:24 I see, yes, I was trying this at the repl inside the package. 09:52:50 I guess the issue I am having is that (intern string package) returns :|string| which doesn't seem to work. 09:52:55 example: (make-instance (intern "dataform" (find-package :weblocks))) 09:53:21 nunb: if you type 'dataform, the reader will create a symbol that is named "DATAFORM" 09:53:31 the reader upcases symbols by default 09:54:04 oh. 09:54:09 but if you call (INTERN "dataform" ...) explicitly, you'll intern a symbol with the name "dataform" 09:54:22 which, of course, is not the same symbol as the symbol with the name "DATAFORM" 09:54:48 I was just looking at the CLHS, I thought intern followed readtable-case.. 09:55:01 well, that's solved then, thanks. 09:55:28 No, INTERN is the "primitive" operation that the reader itself uses 09:56:06 If intern followed readtable-case, then playing at the repl could cause all sorts of code to break horribly. :) 09:57:49 clisp has per-package symbol cases, that hook into INTERN if I'm not mistaken 09:57:52 hmm, don't know what I was reading (make-symbol?) that gave me that impression. 09:59:09 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:00:49 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-5-148.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 10:01:06 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-5-148.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:01:11 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-5-148.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:01:25 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-5-148.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:01:58 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-5-148.vodafone.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 10:02:03 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:02:15 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-5-148.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:06:57 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-226-227.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:09 -!- fusss [i=73803373@gateway/web/freenode/x-39e5bf33bc9f018e] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 10:09:14 -!- stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has quit ["Lunchtime"] 10:09:17 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:11:34 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@66.235.80.184] has quit ["leaving"] 10:13:07 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 10:13:49 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 10:14:17 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest22663 10:14:53 konr [n=konrad@189.96.206.226] has joined #lisp 10:17:49 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 10:17:56 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:19:31 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:26:15 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:27:50 levy_ [n=levy@apn-94-44-8-164.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:33:46 notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@121.243.167.99] has joined #lisp 10:34:46 notsonerdysunny pasted "cells-gtk" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84058 10:35:15 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 10:35:33 hello .. i have pasted the error I got when I tried to run the cells-gtk demo.. 10:35:46 can anybody hint me as to what the problem is? 10:36:18 I have ensured that libcellsgtk.so file is there in /usr/lib/ and the current directory .. 10:36:36 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:38:03 -!- prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:38:18 prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 10:39:40 -!- kidd [n=kidd@209.Red-88-11-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:40:26 kidd [n=kidd@209.Red-88-11-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:40:35 Xach: say, is there a non-dynamic-extent way of accessing a vecto canvas? or drawing on more than one vecto canvas at once? 10:40:43 I may have asked this before 10:43:55 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:46:12 -!- kidd [n=kidd@209.Red-88-11-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:46:18 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-5-148.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:47:03 kidd [n=kidd@209.Red-88-11-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:13 Is there a direct/efficient way of getting an integer's binary representation? 10:48:30 leo2007: print it in base 2 10:49:06 sorry, as a bit-vector 10:49:12 antifuchs: no 10:49:17 ok 10:49:33 I just found out about cl-aa, which looks more like what I need here 10:49:41 I need to do something on the binary representation 10:50:09 antifuchs: yeah, it's the lower-level bit 10:50:18 or cl-vectors, more like 10:50:20 antifuchs: cl-aa turned into cl-vectors iirc 10:50:45 cl-vectors is cl-aa + cl-paths 10:50:52 I see 10:51:03 well, it looks very good at any rate (: 10:51:09 (the rasterizer part + the path part, which could be used separately actually) 10:51:29 What's the clone URL for SBCL's source? 10:51:35 (by git) 10:51:44 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-226-227.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 10:51:45 antifuchs: which project is this for, if I may ask? 10:51:55 yeah, vecto doesn't expose much of the power of cl-vectors 10:52:09 lichtblau: I was just investigating how easy it would be to make a new minimal picture-painting port for clim (: 10:52:45 Adlai: git://sbcl.boinkor.net/sbcl.git is the cvs->git mirror 10:52:49 -!- kidd [n=kidd@209.Red-88-11-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:52:53 antifuchs: thanks 10:53:42 kidd [n=kidd@209.Red-88-11-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:54:06 lichtblau: do not fear - I'm not going to do server-side picture creation (: 10:54:12 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 10:54:13 antifuchs: okay, just checking. In that case I don't have to (in fact, can't and must not) point you at the existing cl-vectors use in our codebase. 10:54:30 (-: 10:55:59 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 10:57:09 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 10:57:32 notsonerdysunny: have you ran ldconfig? 10:57:47 notsonerdysunny: also, are you certain that you've got correct binary? 10:58:01 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 10:59:24 sunil@eagle ~/work/lisp/cells-gtk/cells-gtk-2006-06-30/root/gtk-ffi#file libcellsgtk.so 10:59:26 libcellsgtk.so: ELF 32-bit LSB shared object, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), not stripped 10:59:38 -!- kidd [n=kidd@209.Red-88-11-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:59:49 Hi p_l .. I have run the file command on libcellsgtk.so. . and above is the output 11:00:05 how should I run ldconfig 11:00:07 and you're on 32bit system, I guess? 11:00:13 notsonerdysunny: sudo ldconfig 11:00:26 (or any other way to run ldconfig as root) 11:00:28 kidd [n=kidd@209.Red-88-11-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:56 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:01:43 Yes I am on a 32-bit machine 11:01:55 I ran ldconfig.. 11:02:00 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has left #lisp 11:02:02 but i still get the same problem.. 11:02:09 *p_l* just noticed the date on cells-grk directory 11:02:24 notsonerdysunny: let me guess, you haven't compiled your own, right? 11:04:17 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:04:24 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 11:04:55 notsonerdysunny: try compiling the one from here: http://github.com/Ramarren/cells-gtk3/tree 11:05:40 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:06:15 -!- kidd [n=kidd@209.Red-88-11-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:07:04 kidd [n=kidd@209.Red-88-11-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:20 simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 11:08:49 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit ["leaving"] 11:09:33 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-200-189.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:49 yes that is true 11:12:58 -!- kidd [n=kidd@209.Red-88-11-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:13:02 ok let me try to build my own 11:13:28 anyone notice some pause when connecting to swank server on the same host? 11:13:35 kidd [n=kidd@209.Red-88-11-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:20 Is Xming still the least worst free X server for windows? 11:15:45 p_l can I use clbuild to install cells-gtk3? 11:17:07 notsonerdysunny: no 11:17:08 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-187-178.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:17:12 younder [n=jpthing@084202159110.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 11:18:07 the clbuild community doesn't intersect the cells community AFAICT 11:19:19 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:19:24 -!- kidd [n=kidd@209.Red-88-11-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:20:15 kidd [n=kidd@209.Red-88-11-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:20:49 lichtblau: I suspect that mainline cells not working could be a reason for that :P 11:21:53 last time I tried compiling mainline cells on SBCL, it didn't work. Ramarren's fork at least works 11:22:25 even if cells-gtk3 failed with a completely undecipherable error (I couldn't decipher it due to the way cells work) 11:25:10 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:25:44 -!- younder [n=jpthing@084202159110.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:26:05 -!- kidd [n=kidd@209.Red-88-11-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:27:01 kidd [n=kidd@209.Red-88-11-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:12 -!- notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@121.243.167.99] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:32:51 -!- kidd [n=kidd@209.Red-88-11-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:33:38 kidd [n=kidd@209.Red-88-11-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:33:56 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 11:40:28 Kickaha [n=user@bl5-16-107.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 11:42:41 morning 11:42:51 morning bulibuta 11:43:34 stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:56 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 11:45:08 BW^- [n=Miranda@host202-191-static.39-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:45:11 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-187-178.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 11:45:17 -!- kidd [n=kidd@209.Red-88-11-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:45:19 is there an AMQP client available anywhere? http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-amqp/ is a placeholder 11:46:02 kidd [n=kidd@209.Red-88-11-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:46:31 BW^-: given Chapter 30's title, Nick Levine might be someone to ask. 11:46:46 http://lisp-book.org/contents/ 11:47:13 splittist: supercool! is he on IRC? 11:47:27 BW^-: don't think so, no. 11:47:31 anyone know when that book will be published? 11:47:35 saw it on reddit 11:47:45 -!- prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:47:49 isn't it a bit weird to write a Lisp book that demonstrates specificially how to write unportable code for "Allegro, Clozure, SBCL, LispWorks, Clojure"? 11:47:59 prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:14 ok. 11:49:05 not being an author myself, I'm not quite entitled to criticize someone who is, of course, but it seems odd. A Franz-specific book or a LispWorks-specific book I could understand from a marketing perspective, but mixing it all? 11:49:15 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:49:26 but, http://www.nicklevine.org/cl-rabbit/ :D 11:49:44 lichtblau: the purpose of the book is to show some modern uses for Lisp using existing libs 11:50:11 PissedNumlock: yeah, but why then not use existing portable libs, rather than various things that you can't combine in the same Lisp? 11:50:15 rather than AllegroCache, he could cover cl-perec. 11:50:38 aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host202-224-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:50:56 Rather than write a GUI chapter about (what I presume will be) LispWorks, he could write about one of the excellent Qt or GTK+ bindings available. (It's not like LispWorks CAPI doesn't use FFI itself.) 11:50:58 segv [n=mb@p4FC1DD57.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:51:50 -!- kidd [n=kidd@209.Red-88-11-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:51:53 are there GTK bindings avail? 11:51:59 I thought only Franz had some decent ones 11:52:02 lichtblau: given chapter titles, I won't be surprised if amount of non-portable libs used will be rather limited 11:52:06 lichtblau: perhaps he needed/wanted LW and Franz support, so has a part dedicated to each, then extrapolated from there. 11:52:35 kidd [n=kidd@209.Red-88-11-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:47 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@76.122.37.30] has quit [No route to host] 11:52:55 Anyway, better to have a book and be able to say 'the portable way to do /that/ is...' than have no book at all. 11:53:04 PissedNumlock: the free bindings available are way better than what Franz has 11:53:21 OT: drafael: which pacman package should I use for TeX? 11:53:58 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-54-188.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 11:55:14 lichtblau: could be, never looked into it 11:56:24 Adlai: texlive maybe? 11:56:27 lichtblau: Any particular suggestions for someone wanting to eventually make a gtk application? 11:56:39 do it in ruby :p 11:56:56 Adlai: I personally don't use TeX beyond using LyX so I'm not really the right person to ask unfortunately 11:57:28 PissedNumlock: Nah, then I'd rather just doodle something 11:57:32 whoa what's the tex question? 11:57:41 p.s. Adlai you stole my nick :O 11:57:51 leifw: hm? what do you mean? 11:58:03 -!- konr [n=konrad@189.96.206.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:58:03 your name is also Adlai?? O_o 11:58:03 stipet: I've switched from GTK+ to Qt personally, so I'm not the right person to ask what the latest fashion in GTK+ bindings for Lisp is. Last time I checked, it was CLG, but that might have changed since then. 11:58:12 nah but it's the nick I used to use for IRC a lot 11:58:17 just surprising I guess 11:58:22 -!- kidd [n=kidd@209.Red-88-11-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:58:35 well leifw it's the nick that I use for *life* a lot, so I figured I might as well use it here too :D 11:58:43 lichtblau: And for Qt what would you recommend? 11:58:49 haha yeah makes sense 11:58:54 the TeX question is more an Archlinux question 11:58:55 anyway who's writing TeX? 11:58:58 oh 11:59:02 :( 11:59:18 kidd [n=kidd@209.Red-88-11-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:19 not writing... just want to compile it, and I'm wondering which package in Arch's package manager is the right one to get. 11:59:20 stipet: I'm using CommonQt, but that's because I wrote it. I'm told that cl-smoke is also good. 11:59:59 Adlai: archlinux's favored distribution seems to be texlive, "pacman -S texlive-most" probably installs everything you'll need (and more) 12:00:01 lichtblau: Interesting, will have a look at that one 12:00:08 morphling: thanks. 12:00:10 Adlai: maybe #archlinux is the place to ask? :) 12:00:30 schmx: it's a bit of a cold place. 12:00:33 :D 12:00:34 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1F0BF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:00:38 Adlai: that's linux for ya 12:00:38 HAH 12:00:47 I'm usually in #archlinux as well 12:00:50 *schmx* goes back to trying to get a lisp running on netbsd ;) 12:01:08 drafael: next time I'll ask you my questions there. 12:01:09 in my few visits to #archlinux I have found it very friendly. 12:01:28 schmx: I have it running on FreeBSD 12:01:32 works fine except for sb-thread 12:01:43 as support is currently "experimental" 12:01:57 PissedNumlock: Yeah. I have downloaded sbcl netbsd binary, and also built a 1.0.30. Problem is that both of those are missing :sb-posix. 12:02:00 you have to compile it from source and add support for it if you really want to try it 12:02:11 also, I asked here because I'm compiling SBCL's documentation :D 12:02:35 PissedNumlock: and at the moment the building of clisp in pkgsrc is a bit.. broken. But it has been reported and maybe even been fixed, so it should be ok soonish. 12:02:35 schmx: sb-posix works here 12:02:48 I installed it using ports 12:02:50 PissedNumlock: Right. See that I'm sure it works there, it does not here :) 12:02:55 :p 12:03:04 I'm not gonna downgrade to freebsd! 12:03:05 Adlai: there are some online latex compilers if you want to use them 12:03:07 don't remember 12:03:24 but basically you just give them your tex (or edit it there) and say "yes" and it lets you download the pdf 12:03:24 schmx: don't even know what the differences are between Free and Net 12:03:30 PissedNumlock: Thanks for the info though. I'll live with clisp, it just needs to .. get working :) 12:03:33 except Free started from Net 12:04:02 PissedNumlock: Free started from Net? I thought they were not so much related. I think free focuses more on running on x86 really fast :) 12:04:10 but oh well. it's all good :) 12:04:31 PissedNumlock: didn't both Free and Net started from BSD4.4 with AT&T code removed? 12:04:41 what was it, NET/2 ? 12:04:48 Adlai: http://monkeytex.bradcater.webfactional.com/ is one 12:04:54 PissedNumlock: net more focuses on bitching about stupid linux people who write scripts using gnu extensions ;) 12:05:05 -!- kidd [n=kidd@209.Red-88-11-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:05:07 p_l: I think so too. and openbsd atleast forked off of net. 12:05:13 well ppl in #freebsd bitch on linux quite often as well :p 12:05:19 excellent. 12:05:21 :D 12:05:36 *schmx* is actually considering a plan9 install on the laptop. It seems to have a scheme now :) 12:05:38 *p_l* bitches on "modern" linux distros as a linux user 12:05:44 :D 12:05:52 I bitch on ubuntu, but that's an easy target 12:05:53 kidd [n=kidd@209.Red-88-11-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:55 darned GUI tools! making it impossible to vi /etc/... 12:06:19 schmx: darned D-Bus. It doesn't follow security system, so we get saddled with another idiotic scheme 12:06:29 (: 12:06:34 d-bus is everywhere it seems. 12:06:59 and NetworkManager in my /etc stealing my resolv.conf 12:07:03 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 12:07:12 networkmanager under debian is horrible 12:07:19 last version of ubuntu works +- 12:07:51 and running KDE and GNOME together lets all those networkmanagers battle for the config file 12:08:02 oh, the fun times I've had 12:08:32 network works fine, reboot, file changed by networkmanager once more 12:08:39 CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.123.39] has joined #lisp 12:09:02 xan-afk_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:09:33 PissedNumlock: that's why I don't run network manager. Although they added certain stuff that they promised not to add (and which was critical for me), it still sucks 12:09:47 *schmx* builds himself some ratpoison. 12:09:49 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-21-24.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:10:34 p_l: yes I disabled them too 12:10:44 but even that can be a pain in the ass 12:11:12 BSD doesn't have any of those managers, you config it during the install and you're done 12:11:26 *p_l* is happily using his laptop without HAL, D-Bus, NetworkManager or anything else. Just like it was intended to work 12:11:39 HAL is the evil that made X crazy. 12:11:56 PissedNumlock: quite a few linux distros don't have those managers by default either. 12:12:06 schmx: what's the 9p you're considering installing? 12:12:09 PissedNumlock: My Linux install probably looks more like BSD 12:12:14 schmx: gnome and kde provide those managers by default I think 12:12:22 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:13:42 leifw: Well the plan9 4th edition distro from bell labs site :) 12:14:07 leifw: even got a livecd! 12:14:19 PissedNumlock: Right. But who runs those anyway, eh? 12:14:38 most distro's? :) 12:14:40 word 12:14:45 -!- BW^- [n=Miranda@host202-191-static.39-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:15:03 PissedNumlock: I don't think so. i've looked at both slackware and arch. None of them do by default. 12:15:08 So 100% of my sample. 12:15:14 Not debian either last time I checked (: 12:15:19 debian comes with gnome 12:15:22 -!- stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:15:32 Did not last time I installed it. 12:15:36 opensuse comes with KDE or GNOME 12:15:38 didn't even come with X I'm sure. 12:15:40 fedora comes with GNOME 12:15:47 well I guess it depends on your installoptions schmx :) 12:16:06 Well I'm sure we can agree that anything that installs X by default is broken ;) 12:16:17 for the average user. I'm sure special cases like linus torvalds like it :P 12:16:21 now to restart me some X 12:16:44 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:17:10 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-200-189.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 12:17:47 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:19:31 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-140-164.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:19:53 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 12:21:21 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:21:39 Back again after a windowze nightmare. No boot. apperently boot .ini had been deleted during a update. bott into ubuntu. change the name of boot.ini.saved to boot.ini and everything was jake. 12:22:05 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-241-91.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:07 3.2 Gigs of lost data is no joke, really got my heart racing there 12:22:48 missed a appointment though 12:22:59 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:24 Jasko [n=tjasko@98.235.105.148] has joined #lisp 12:23:46 anything new lisp? 12:24:05 chris eubank is getting rid of his lisp 12:25:29 *jthing* has 6 versions under linux and 4 under windows 12:25:37 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:05 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:26:31 mostly use SBCL under ubuntu these days, though 12:26:41 who's chris eubank? 12:27:05 british boxer, has lisp 12:27:29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Eubank 12:28:11 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@88-149-231-31.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 12:28:37 "When I realised I had sense, I was on my mother's knee in church, so I was brought up with God being the cornerstone of my life, and my understanding of Islam is that if you are a good Christian then you are a Muslim. This view some would not agree with, however this is my view. So long as you believe in doing good and not promoting badness then you are God's man or woman" 12:29:47 As a satanist I would have to say good riddance.. 12:30:07 jthing: more common lisp 12:30:48 I thought, at minimum, you would need to acknowledge Mohamed as the last true prophet 12:30:52 -!- xan-afk [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:31:02 ah, well. As an absurdist, I don't really care. 12:31:20 *attila_lendvai* lives in absurdistan 12:31:20 fine, does anyone have a script for CORRECTLY parsing email addresses? 12:31:47 jthing: (split-sequence #\@ email) not good enough for you? 12:31:58 right 12:31:59 it cannot be done 12:33:00 That's a little extreme, but it's really advisable to do the minimum amount of parsing. 12:33:46 The syntax for this mother is really a bich.. 12:34:01 jthing: what do you need to parse out? 12:34:08 The stuff of nightmares 12:34:27 I see. Is the stuff of nightmares representable in unicode? 12:34:48 Oh I will probaly chicken out, and do the usuall thing. minimal parsing 12:34:58 -!- froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:35:16 If you don't do the minimum, you'll risk it breaking when some new unexpected email thing comes out 12:36:16 tell me about it, i spendt 3 hours on the phone today because a major ISP was tryin to be 'clever' in it's parsing 12:36:40 is this correct: (subtypep 'integer 'foo) returns nil when foo is not a type 12:37:18 how am i supposed to know if a symbol names a type? 12:37:40 a sumbol name isn't a type, simple 12:37:50 what exactly do you ean 12:37:50 is there an easy way to convert a double-precision array to single float? 12:37:54 mean 12:38:00 it is 2D 12:38:00 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:31 yes, you would use coerce 12:38:35 leo2007: i don't think there is a short way to do it. 12:38:52 if there was, i'd suspect it would be with coerce. 12:39:08 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 12:39:31 Xach: thanks 12:39:37 levy: Note that subtypep produces two values. 12:40:13 coerce works as long as it's a subtype 12:40:25 wrong 12:40:36 for good measure I tested it under SBCL 12:40:49 well, that's generally not true i mean 12:42:59 jthing, the question was how to decide if symbol names a type, meaning that it is useful to call subtypep on it 12:43:28 levy: Well, subtypep will tell you. 12:43:53 In the past, Xof has discussed this issue at length. In ways I didn't quite understand or retain. 12:43:58 Zhivago, that's quite not true as I see 12:44:00 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:44:20 levy: What values do subtypep return? 12:44:29 the spec is pretty clear on THAT 12:44:52 returning (values nil nil) means it is not a subtypep and the result is not even certain... 12:45:14 Zhivago: the point is that (subtypep 'zork 'baz) should error, but if it doesn't then at least there should be a way to ask the system whether 'zork and/or 'baz names a type. but CL's type infrastructure is ancient... 12:45:26 quote: A second value is also returned indicating the `certainty' of the first value. If this value is true, then the first value is an accurate indication of the subtype relationship. ( 12:45:52 (subtypep 'integer '(satisfies listp)) and (subtypep 'integer '(foo)) both returns (values nil nil) 12:46:05 one of them is a valid type while the other does not specify any type 12:46:36 (typep 1 '(satisfies listp)) returns nil while (typep 1 '(foo)) is an error 12:47:16 so i think subtypep is "wrong" in that it does not signal error for '(foo) 12:47:44 jthing, that second value is simply not enough as I pointed out above 12:48:46 attila_lendvai: (subtypep symbol 'nil) will determine whether SYMBOL is a valid atomic type specifier 12:48:57 jthing, the spec is pretty clear on _many_ things, it does not mean that it is also _useful_ 12:49:11 I am often classified as a idiot, but here I really don't understand the prblem. 12:49:47 whay would any of the abouve be a legal subtype? 12:50:04 tcr, (subtypep '(satisfies listp) nil) and (subtypep '(foo) nil) both return (values nil nil) 12:50:09 attila_lendvai: Except if FOO-TYPE is actually defined via DEFTYPE to expand to a compound type specifier, it'll not work. 12:50:15 tcr, therefore your suggestion does not work 12:50:22 levy_: Yes, hence I said "atomic type specifier" 12:50:35 so use listp instead 12:50:49 cons is a atomic type list isn't 12:50:50 jthing, have you ever heard of variables? 12:51:28 jthing: we are talking about code that works with data on one meta level up... types are treated as values, errors should be userful for invalid types 12:51:46 s/should/would/ 12:51:53 no, of cource not, in fact I spent my entite life with my head stuffed down a toilet, whay? 12:52:00 anyway, i know a solution which is kinda stupid, calling typep with that type on any value will signal an error.... 12:52:11 jthing: now THAT explains a lot 12:52:17 usocket (from clbuild) doesn't seem to work on windows xp. Is there a workaround for it? 12:52:26 lol 12:52:38 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 12:52:56 madnificent: the standard one: don't use windows 12:52:57 levy_: not portably 12:53:01 typep is too implemetation spesific, it can bite 12:53:24 fe[nl]ix: not my computer (but I agree :)) 12:53:47 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@88-149-231-31.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [] 12:53:50 tcr, bah CL's type system is really lame 12:53:56 Ah, sbcl is in violation of the spec 12:54:48 levy_: No it's too powerful 12:54:54 no, but the spec is open as regards subtypes 12:55:26 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@98.235.105.148] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:55:34 numeric types not so much, but characters on the other hand.. 12:56:14 tcr, saying too powerful is weird thing for a type system, which does not have any reflection... 12:56:30 tcr: heh, that's the standard lisper behavior... the scheme of arguing about bugs being features in fact... :) 12:57:17 I'm not sure it's a feature. Doesn't change anything 12:57:21 CL is dying due to the infamous _SPEC_ issue 12:58:49 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:59:01 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 12:59:33 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 12:59:41 sellout [n=greg@63.107.91.105] has joined #lisp 12:59:43 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 12:59:53 what the _SPEC_ says will not be *changed* in the next couple of million years... 12:59:59 anyway, back to work 13:00:16 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-157.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:00:53 tmh: hi 13:02:18 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@76.122.37.30] has joined #lisp 13:04:39 attila_lendvai: See, all that's missing is a type-expand-1, and yes its lack can be frustrating. It's probably not hard to come up with some trivial- code for that. 13:06:21 levy_: If you do not care about what the spec says, I really do not see your problem then. Just look at some sbcl-internal functions which does it, and use it. 13:06:32 leo2007 pasted "test" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84064 13:06:55 minion: memo? 13:06:56 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``memo''. 13:07:07 minion: help memo? 13:07:07 To send a memo, say something like ``minion: memo for nick: the memo''. I'll remember the memo for any nick which is the same as the given nick, +/- differences in punctuation, and any nick which is an alias for it, and give it to them when they next speak. 13:07:31 What seems odd to me, is that (subtypep 'something-i-never-declared-to-be-a-type t) => t. 13:07:48 deepfire: 'something-... may be added interactively 13:08:20 tcr, could you explain a bit more? 13:08:26 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 13:08:26 minion: memo for tmh: I try to unit test a 1000x1111 array which failed and it seems it is due to the same failure in http://paste.lisp.org/display/84064 . Ideas? 13:08:26 Remembered. I'll tell tmh when he/she/it next speaks. 13:08:53 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest65196 13:08:59 deepfire: (subtypep nil t) => t 13:09:15 everything is a subtype of T 13:11:01 serichsen, http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_nil.htm -- the type nil is defined. 13:11:13 'something-i-never-declared-to-be-a-type wasn't 13:11:15 deepfire: Hence you need (nth-value 1 (subtypep 'some-symbol 'nil)), the second paragraph of subtypep applies then 13:11:50 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:09 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.128.148] has joined #lisp 13:13:48 (actually you need to wrap that around an ignore-errors because there're implementation which do signal an error.) 13:14:37 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:15:07 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:40 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:16:20 Thanks, I see now. 13:16:45 typep bites.. 13:17:28 -!- xan-afk_ is now known as xan 13:17:48 the situation where the argument evaluates to nil is one issue 13:17:52 manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has joined #lisp 13:18:03 Jabberwockey [n=jens@193.174.12.194] has joined #lisp 13:18:22 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.128.142] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:21:00 personally I prefer a check type, or method overloading which provide more predictabe behaviour 13:21:24 deepfire: I forgot the details why that behaviour is a good idea. In particular because subtypep does take an environment parameter, so its operation should be performed relative to the _current_ state of the global environment. 13:21:25 s/provide/provides/ 13:21:34 Perhaps Xof will chime in and (re)educate us all 13:22:36 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:23:26 etypecase 13:24:13 Reav___ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 13:25:12 LW Hyperspec seems down 13:26:19 Perhaps to blind people from the spec and make then get some work done 13:26:34 hmm.. OReilly is publishing a lisp book http://lisp-book.org/ 13:26:40 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:27:04 *nyef* ponders type-let, to locally extend the type system. 13:27:30 bring it up at the monday meeting! 13:27:34 Oh hell no. 13:27:43 If I bring anything up on monday, it'll be sb-alien. 13:27:50 I'd rather want a letstruct 13:28:09 tcr: try bind 13:28:12 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:28:13 lexical types vs dynamic types (; 13:28:14 tcr, why? 13:29:26 mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 13:29:51 I just happen to have a failure of imagination about its potential uses, not being sceptical, or something.. 13:29:56 splitlist: use progv for eval 13:30:19 deepfire: For example to make it automatically define list accessors for me :-) 13:30:48 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Client Quit] 13:31:08 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 13:31:25 -!- Guest65196 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 13:31:25 or to define a local aggregate datastructure. In macro you often need to keep track of some information 13:31:35 I mean in the actual macro definition 13:31:51 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:32:01 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:32:12 Why not use a closure? :) 13:33:10 classes scale to manage several objects 13:33:38 a closure is like a module 13:34:12 you risc 'painting yourself into a corner' 13:34:44 I bet if minion was modified to randomly talk something from its database, it'd have a greater S/N than jthing 13:34:46 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:34:51 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:07 kiuma [n=kiuma@proxy.emea.fedex.com] has joined #lisp 13:36:49 nyef: You'll be here on Monday as well? 13:37:07 tcr: you have a problem with prefering classes to cosures? or just with me? 13:37:16 closures 13:37:18 Barring anything unfortunate like having to work, yes. 13:37:37 Sweet. 13:45:07 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:46:29 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-140-164.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 13:51:06 YUIOP [n=Domigan@64.208.203.146] has joined #lisp 13:51:22 Xach: I love wigflip so friggin much. http://www.flickr.com/photos/sellout42/3748670259/ 13:51:37 *splittist* gives up trying to get osicat to work on Windows for today 13:51:40 ha 13:52:08 it's lately been invaded by swarms of french teens making tiny animated signs 13:52:22 minifesto saw a tenfold increase in traffic 13:53:09 splittist: what's going wrong? It used to work. :-/ 13:53:33 http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/wigflip/ can sometimes be frightening, though. 13:54:00 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:37 *Xach* wonders if "skyrock" is some kind of French myspace 13:55:03 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:55:04 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 13:55:12 luis: I'm not Cygwinning, if that makes a difference. 13:55:19 Xach: it's a radio station, I think. 13:55:35 who's that Mill, anyway? 13:55:52 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 13:56:06 splittist: cffi-grovel is not suppose to work outside of cygwin 13:56:08 someone with a fetish. 13:57:56 fe[nl]ix: Oh well. Me lose then. 13:59:13 Xach: Yeah, wow. 13:59:34 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-209-188.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 13:59:38 -!- Guest22663 is now known as pkhuong 13:59:40 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-67.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:59:50 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 14:00:33 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:40 splittist: of course, patches are accepted if you want to use vanilla xp + msvc 14:02:53 Umm... Wait, wait... I'm fairly certain that SBCL itself supports both cygwin and msys for both main build and contribs... 14:02:55 splittist: oh yes, cygwin or mingw is probably needed to compile it. 14:03:03 s/mingw/msys 14:03:10 But msvc would be a rather large surprise to me. 14:04:59 splittist: we could probably include a precompiled DLL 14:05:33 luis: yes, but only in the release tarball 14:06:07 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:02 luis: it's with MinGW/MSYS that it's failing. clisp and sbcl. But I need to get some real work done unless you can really hold my hand (: 14:07:39 to whom it may concern: there was an unexpected failure running SBCL's tests. 14:07:48 (on my computer) 14:08:04 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 14:08:25 splittist: you might get away quickly by disabling the compilation of wrappers.lisp in osicat.asd. 14:09:16 Xach: and now, you are enabling creepy insane people 14:09:17 tsk 14:09:52 that's what the internet is for! 14:10:04 froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:08 luis: I got a wrappers.dll... 14:12:18 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-168-132-106.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:11 willb [n=wibenton@compsci-wifi-39.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:13:26 coderdad_ [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has joined #lisp 14:15:00 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:16:15 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 14:16:23 splittist: ah cool, so where is it failing? Can you paste the error? 14:17:02 luis: OK. I'll start again (as it were). 14:17:20 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:19:25 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:19:40 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 14:21:41 luis: the first time slime kicks me into the debugger when adsf loading osicat is with "The variable OSICAT-POSIX:S-IRGRP is unbound. 14:21:41 [Condition of type UNBOUND-VARIABLE]" when compiling osicat.lisp 14:24:27 By then I've already been warned that SETENV, UNSETENV, LSTAT, MKSTEMP, READDIR, CLOSEDIR, OPENDIR, READLINK, LINK and SYMLINK are not available on this platform. 14:25:13 *luis* looks at osicat.lisp 14:26:57 jlf` [n=user@adsl-99-161-111-9.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:40 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-76-86.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:29:18 I'm getting a test that fails when building sbcl. Is there some build log or such one can find and look in? 14:30:30 splittist: hmm, stick a few #-windows for :group-read, :group-write and :group-exec 14:30:47 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-140-164.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:31:14 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:32:55 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 14:33:13 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 14:34:06 morning 14:34:47 oh in output 14:36:06 -!- prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:36:20 prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:42 luis: #-windows-ing out everything after :user-exec gets the end of the file. 14:39:31 Of course, list-directory then fails with Unsupported POSIX function OPENDIR... 14:41:50 ugh 14:42:48 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:44:35 schmx: the tests report a list at the end, you can ask run-tests to rerun tests byt name, iirc 14:46:13 there's no opendir on windows, apparently 14:46:33 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:47:01 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 14:47:05 splittist: that must have never worked then :-/ shouldn't be too hard to port to windows, but I don't have a windows machine with Lisp right now. 14:47:27 luis: fair enough. 14:48:02 I could swear it worked at some point. :-/ 14:49:29 luis: I'm trying to use the experimental Portable MinGW/MSYS thing, so no doubt it's just me. 14:50:19 tmh annotated #84064 "The relative error is 43 single-float-epsilon leo2007" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84064#1 14:50:29 Greetings. 14:50:30 tmh, memo from leo2007: I try to unit test a 1000x1111 array which failed and it seems it is due to the same failure in http://paste.lisp.org/display/84064 . Ideas? 14:51:54 milanj [n=milan@79.101.204.210] has joined #lisp 14:52:50 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 14:54:57 -!- nigugamesh [n=nigugame@c83-251-39-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:55:08 nigugamesh [n=nigugame@c83-251-39-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:56:45 -!- ASau [n=user@host105-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 14:59:50 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-152-243.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:00:12 -!- prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["]"] 15:01:17 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 15:03:02 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-168-132-106.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 15:03:05 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:06:57 kami-``` [n=user@193.218.18.18] has joined #lisp 15:08:14 claar: draw (2 3 4 5) 15:08:14 http://claar.informatimago.com:8006/10 15:08:17 claar: draw (2 3 4 5 2) 15:08:17 http://claar.informatimago.com:8006/11 15:08:24 -!- aircastle [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:08:34 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:08:34 -!- jamief [n=jamie@tansur.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:08:34 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:08:34 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:08:34 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:08:34 -!- kami-`` [n=user@193.218.18.18] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:08:34 -!- lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-22-9.dynamic.amis.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:08:34 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:08:34 -!- Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:08:34 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-69-221-252-243.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:08:34 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:08:35 matimago: then attach ditaa to that ;) 15:08:48 lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-22-9.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:57 claar: draw (2 3 4 5) 15:08:57 http://claar.informatimago.com:8006/12 15:08:58 slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-153-52.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 15:09:04 doesn't cache 15:09:17 pjb hi ! 15:09:44 doesn't seem to show anything either 15:10:03 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:07 SFM 15:10:09 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 15:10:11 ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:18 Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 15:10:18 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 15:10:30 Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 15:10:37 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483FE71.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:10:39 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483FE71.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:50 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-159-185.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:11:08 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 15:12:24 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-79-16.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 15:12:27 How many bots are in this channel? 15:12:41 tmh, I think 3 15:12:43 about 300 15:12:50 what stassats said 15:12:50 300 is closer to the truth 15:12:56 really? 15:13:32 -!- YUIOP [n=Domigan@64.208.203.146] has left #lisp 15:14:30 heh 15:16:12 I think I'm going to write the tmh-bot. It will complement me on everything I write. "Good point, tmh" "You're correct, tmh" "tmh: you demonstrate superhuman insight." 15:17:01 there's a blackadder joke in there somewhere. 15:17:05 tmh: good point 15:19:56 claar: draw #1=(8 6 6 (5 3 . #1#) 0 9) 15:20:15 Bravo Xach! 15:20:23 probably just ignored me. 15:20:43 Xach: you demonstrate superhuman insight 15:21:12 jamief [n=jamie@158.223.53.104] has joined #lisp 15:21:24 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 15:21:45 hi tmh 15:22:09 claar: draw (alivep claar) 15:22:17 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 15:22:32 Hey leo2007, the relative error of those numbers is 43 single-float-epsilon. 15:22:49 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-69-221-252-243.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:09 claar: draw (1 . 2) 15:23:48 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:24:06 claar: draw #.(cl-user::quit) 15:24:50 I think that it is really gone for now 15:25:11 probably still drawing Xach's loop? :) 15:25:13 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:19 tmh: the difference between those two numbers is 2.5d-9 and *epsilon* is 1.2d-7. Shouldn't that be enough? 15:25:46 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:26:05 ah, relative error? 15:26:13 rsynnott [i=rsynnott@134.226.83.42] has joined #lisp 15:26:27 leo2007: Yes, look at the annotation. 15:26:28 luis: Are you coming to the meeting on Monday? 15:27:26 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 15:29:00 cannot find relative-error. 15:31:18 Xach: heh, I'm on the wrong (right?) side of the Atlantic. 15:31:28 leo2007: Ok, it looks like it's not exported in the master branch. 15:32:29 leo2007: try (/ (float-error 9.765625d-4 9.7656e-4) single-float-epsilon) 15:32:36 is there a way to compare two arrays, that are equal if they are rounded to the 8th decimal point? 15:33:45 luis: with modern transport you can cross Atlantic before Monday 15:33:51 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.123.39] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:34:21 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-76-86.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:34:22 tmh annotated #84064 "leo2007, use assert-sigfig-equal" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84064#2 15:36:09 leo2007: That is a very slow test. You'd be better off setting the value of epsilon to some multiple of [single|double]-float-epsilon and having an understanding of where the relative error is being generated.. 15:37:29 leo2007 annotated #84064 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84064#3 15:37:37 leo2007: Oops, overlooked that your were passing vectors/matrices, let me annotate that again. 15:38:52 tmh: if it can use absolute error it will be fine in this case 15:39:14 merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has joined #lisp 15:41:39 -!- slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-153-52.3g.claro.net.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:42:00 leo2007: sigfig-equal will return true if 2 floats have equal significant figures. It is rarely used, I can only think of package where I use it in a few tests. Just use numerical-equal and set epsilon to something like 50 single-float-epsilon. What you really need to do is calculate the relative error of each element, find the maximum and decide if that is acceptable. Alternatively, you could compare the relative error norm of the 2 matrices, but 15:44:25 li_bai [n=li_bai@CPE0015e96c35fd-CM0014e8867f68.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:47:30 tmh annotated #84064 "leo2007, compare these tests" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84064#4 15:47:43 normally numerical-equal is fine. But in my case, one matrix is from fortran and that is truncated when saved to file 15:48:01 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-79-16.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:48:54 i noticed that you can declare a boolean variable: (defvar foo t) or (defvar foo nil). is there a function that tests whether a variable is boolean? i mean is there an equivalent to stringp, integerp, floatp, etc.? 15:49:24 you can test for nil 15:49:32 li_bai: values have types, not variables. 15:50:32 (if (null foo) "wrong" "right") 15:51:00 leo2007: I haven't written a fortran format statement in ages, but I pretty sure you can format the number as required. I realize this would require running the program again. 15:52:13 tmh: that's true but then the file size will also increase. at the moment I am using 'f10.8' 15:52:47 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:52:56 sorry, it is f11.9 15:53:08 9 significant figures 15:53:16 -!- merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has quit [] 15:53:46 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:54:17 -!- li_bai [n=li_bai@CPE0015e96c35fd-CM0014e8867f68.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:55:36 -!- exp[a] [n=Zerg@83.167.120.155] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:55:42 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-145-107.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:49 exp[a] [n=Zerg@83.167.120.155] has joined #lisp 15:55:55 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:56:20 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:59:01 leo2007: In that case, you may need to use sigfig-equal. Ugh, I just looked at my unit testing that uses sigfig-equal and it is lagging lisp-unit terribly. 15:59:10 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.64.33] has joined #lisp 16:01:04 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:01:11 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:01:22 but that does not accept matrix input right? 16:01:53 leo2007: Nope. Hah! Here is the comment above sigfig-equal ";;; TODO : Convert to a generic function and specialize for sequences." 16:02:26 leo2007: How is it possible that you require this modification? No one uses sigfig-equal. :-) 16:02:49 rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:52 I have increase *epsilon* so now the test passed 16:06:11 -!- jlf` [n=user@adsl-99-161-111-9.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:07:07 tmh: what really is a headache between fortran and lisp is array index 16:07:16 leo2007: Yeah, but I think in this specific situation, the correct answer is to use sigfig-equal. It needs to be updated, by coincidence, I need it now as well. 16:08:08 tmh: yes, I will change to use sigfig-equal when it is available ;-) 16:10:28 leo2007: It should be available soon, I need it done to unit test a package that I need for a commercial project. 16:10:58 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-162-201.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:11:59 tmh: I got the array stored in the file, it is 12M. it takes 16 seconds for unit testing and it seems a lot of time is spent on reading the file 16:13:54 leo2007: Well, it's going to take more time, because sigfig-equal is a slow test. If it becomes unacceptable, I'd appreciate it if you would profile the test, but we'll burn that bridge when we get to it. All of my tests that use sigfig-equal are ridiculously small, 6x6 matrices at most. 16:15:03 tmh: I am very happy to do profiling. 16:15:29 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 16:16:35 Izzo pasted "BDY CRC" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84072 16:17:29 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:17:57 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:20:16 Is there an officially exported way to get the username in SBCL? 16:20:42 -!- quartzo is now known as LamaWarPig5 16:20:46 [uid to user name function seems to be in the sb-unix package which I'm told not to use...] 16:21:19 (sb-posix:getenv "USER") 16:21:31 (sb-posix:passwd-name (sb-posix:getpwuid (sb-posix:getuid))) 16:23:00 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:23:01 shell programmer's answer vs. C programmer's answer, I guess 16:23:20 shell programmer's answer would be `whoami` (-: 16:23:30 or the sb-ext:run-program equivalent (: 16:23:50 drewc annotated #84072 "english translation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84072#1 16:23:57 lichtblau: Your answer is probably more robust. Environments are know to get hosed. :-) 16:23:58 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:24:34 Never mind: (sb-posix:passwd-name (sb-posix:getpwuid (sb-posix:getuid))) 16:24:51 lichtblau: thanks. Got to it by floundering... 16:26:12 probably should make a library for some of htese commonly needed things... 16:26:22 rpg: Never underestimate the power of floundering. I just got a roomba, irobot business model is based on floundering. 16:27:41 mdavid [n=mdavid@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:27:41 -!- cone [n=cone@pool-96-226-97-250.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:28:04 Hmm, maybe not business model, but definitely the product. 16:29:02 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["Time to think"] 16:29:42 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 16:30:41 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:31:51 kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:33:06 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 16:35:04 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:46 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:38:05 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:39:18 -!- kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:40:11 tmh: I think the GM business model was based on floundering, and I don't think it works as well for that as for product model! 16:42:48 It's not a bad business model for a fisherman 16:43:37 rpg: Heh. So, I've run it a couple times in the kitchen area, the highest traffic area. It's a little frustrating to watch, I compulsively want to program it, although it's not possible to, to have a set pattern. It works, though. When I empty the bin, I'm surprised at how much it's picked up. I'll just have to start running it when I go to bed so I don't annoyed with its floundering. 16:45:27 rsynnott: maybe not so great for the fish! 16:45:45 *rpg* restrains himself from joining in a full-fledged punfest. 16:47:05 your forbearance is greatly appreciated 16:47:35 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:47:37 fgtech [n=fgtech@host236-200-dynamic.30-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:47:45 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@host236-200-dynamic.30-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left #lisp 16:48:04 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:49:21 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 16:50:20 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 16:51:21 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:53:23 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:56:04 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:56:52 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:57:16 nunb` [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 16:58:09 back 16:58:13 back 16:58:26 hm... seems like the latest release of my client no longer accepts /back... 16:58:37 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [] 17:01:13 guille_ [n=user@209.Red-81-36-242.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:16 hi there 17:03:08 HG` [n=wells@xdslex082.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:03:21 guille_ pasted "Recursion with an anonymous function as a lexical variable" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84076 17:03:58 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 17:04:42 ^ there i'm trying to call within a lambda to itself, what's wrong that it doesn't know its name? 17:05:06 clhs let* 17:05:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm 17:05:10 you need labels 17:05:16 clhs labels 17:05:17 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm 17:05:50 (let ((functor)) (setf functor (lambda () (funcall #'functor)) ;; but, yes .. labels or somethinglikethat 17:06:21 gonzojive [n=red@171.66.86.168] has joined #lisp 17:06:56 guille_: Or you can play with your macro skills to write your own lambda that binds its own reference to "self" (either building it out of labels, or a let-post-setf 17:08:38 -!- gonzojive [n=red@171.66.86.168] has quit [Client Quit] 17:08:38 -!- pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:09:41 gonzojive [n=red@171.66.86.168] has joined #lisp 17:13:00 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 17:13:36 and this function is also wrong, it doesn't terminate 17:14:07 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:14:16 because (not (not 0)) => T? 17:14:50 NOT doesn't care about zero 17:14:51 and the last line doesn't work (needs funcall) 17:15:24 guille_: there is only one false value in Lisp, NIL, which is the same as (), the empty list 17:15:33 stassats annotated #84076 "correction" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84076#1 17:15:45 |Soulman| [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:16:50 thank you. i got it 17:17:15 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 17:18:08 -!- Reav___ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:19:20 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 17:19:26 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-112-40.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:37 is there anyone using BOOLE? 17:20:26 *Xach* does not use boole, but has saved an article about why boole is like it is 17:20:41 does it have something log* functions don't? 17:21:22 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:43 man ... 5 years of lisping, i've read the hyperspec a number of times .... first time i've heard of BOOLE-* 17:22:54 pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 17:23:29 *Xach* digs up his article 17:23:48 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/7ebe79808a10ae47 17:24:10 clhs glossary even has "Programmer" entry 17:24:18 -!- guille_ [n=user@209.Red-81-36-242.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 17:24:33 "an active entity, typically a human, that writes a program" good description 17:24:43 Xach: thanks, hopefully that might make sense out of it, cause right now i'm in WTF mode :) 17:25:28 guille_ [n=user@209.Red-81-36-242.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:52 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@193.174.12.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:26:01 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:26:43 peddie_ [n=matthew@67.169.49.37] has joined #lisp 17:28:05 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/a72da659e0a7357b has some followup 17:28:13 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-76-86.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:28:54 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:29:27 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has quit [] 17:30:11 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:31:11 -!- ivan-kanis [n=user@if02t2-89-83-137-164.d4.club-internet.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:31:37 cltl3 should remove BOOL, or shouldn't it? 17:31:43 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:32:02 stassats: no 17:32:08 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:32:22 remove? I would hope not...Perhaps you mean deprecate, in which case no opinion. :) 17:32:23 for the sake of compatibility? 17:32:58 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-241-91.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:32:59 ok, should then cltl3 provide missing log* functions? 17:33:29 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:05 they seem rather useless to me. :) 17:34:16 not necessarily 17:35:28 It seems rather silly to add 6 trivial functions which ignore at least half their arguments, which nobody actually wants for any reason but symmetry. 17:38:21 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 17:39:07 milanj- [n=milan@93.86.214.158] has joined #lisp 17:39:28 right 17:40:37 stassats: my answers : no, and maybe... you want to write the specs? 17:41:07 drewc: no, i'd rather whine on IRC 17:41:19 stassats: ok, fair enough :) 17:41:28 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 17:41:47 heh 17:42:05 -!- peddie [n=matthew@67.169.49.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:42:24 CLtL3 will not be removing anything from the giant mudball of strength! 17:43:10 Is there any opinion about introducing (#,foo) as a shorthand for (funcall foo)? 17:43:26 serichsen: yes, burn it till it's dead. 17:44:36 drewc: ok. Why? 17:44:54 #,? what is wrong with #'? or why do you want that? 17:45:27 hypno: #' is the other way around 17:45:42 serichsen: because adding syntax for every operator in lisp is not a good idea, and you've chosen a random operator to add syntax to. 17:45:57 not random 17:46:05 I think it's a mistake. 17:46:40 my thought is to have a more or less symmetric construct to mirror #' 17:46:43 You'd do better to add (function foo) syntax to bindings, and introduce local functions and compiler macros to transform (foo x y) into (funcall foo x y) transparently. 17:47:06 e.g., (lambda (#'x) (x 10)) 17:47:34 Zhivago: yeah, that's a nice solution. 17:47:46 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.204.210] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:48:13 to what problem? 17:48:18 (foo bar baz) <= I call the position of foo the "operator position", the others "argument position" 17:48:34 "operand" 17:48:39 okay 17:48:50 stassats: to the 'cl is not a lisp-1' non-problem of course :) 17:49:28 standard is that the arguments are evaluated through the value namespace (is that the right name?) 17:50:15 if you want to get at their function value, you use #' 17:50:19 Zhivago: yeah it'd be nice if there weren't so many different macros used to bind things. :) 17:50:41 standard is that the operand is evaluated through the function namespace 17:51:03 if you want to get at their value value (?), you use #, 17:51:04 well, car is not evaluated 17:51:12 clhs 3 17:51:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_.htm 17:51:17 serichsen: ^ 17:51:20 (let ((#'foo (lambda () 5))) (foo)) :) 17:51:26 foom: The problem is the lack of a standard way to extend namespaces. 17:51:30 I perceive a symmetry there 17:51:32 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@proxy.emea.fedex.com] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:52:47 foom: Well, there aren't many binding forms once you've done macroexpansion. 17:53:05 turtles all the way down innit :) 17:53:26 their shells are curved like parentheses 17:53:39 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:53:49 My lispy language that only exists in my head lets you add bindings to the current "scope" without a new indentation level. :) 17:54:28 like define in scheme? 17:54:33 doesn't scheme work like that? 17:54:51 *Xach* thinks about olin shivers's looping talk 17:55:26 Xach: is it available somewhere? 17:55:42 define can't be used for locals in scheme, can it? 17:55:45 or Dylan for that matter. 17:55:51 or is that a feature in new scheme that I don't know about 17:55:56 It'd be hard to come up with a so-called "problem" in Lisp that isn't covered by some weird dialect somewhere. 17:55:59 stassats: i don't know. seems possible, because apparently he's given it multiple times in multiple venues. 17:56:22 i'm pretty sure i've read it, and i've never seen shivers speak ... 17:56:26 r5rs define 17:56:26 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-8.html#%_idx_190 17:56:40 Illustrating that you can fork the language or build an alternative, but that doesn't mean existing users, by and large, would move towards that. 17:56:53 I mean like (defun foo (x) (print x) (bind z (+1 x)) (print z)) is equivalent to: (defun foo (x) (print x) (let ((z (+1 x))) (print z))) 17:57:21 a straightforward expansion given a custom parser 17:57:28 foom: in scheme it must be at the beginning 17:57:28 17:57:28 17:57:28 17:57:38 stassats: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/1014 17:57:59 foom: see http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-8.html#%_sec_5.2.2 17:58:01 err, hmm. 17:59:00 http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/shivers/citations.html#loop 17:59:22 ah, okay; so you can use for local variables, but that only allows at the beginning. Not what I want. :) 17:59:36 Xach: thanks 17:59:58 foom: like in some later C standard? 18:00:08 stassats: right, like C99 and C++ added 18:00:21 stassats: I want the same thing in lisp, it's just as useful here. 18:02:49 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:03:41 maybe, but LET stand out, i know where to find from where some variable came 18:03:42 ugh, no, I don't want to fork or something. I just want a simple (set-dispatch-macro-character #\# #\, (lambda (str sc n) (declare (ignore str sc n)) 'funcall)) 18:04:10 -!- gonzojive [n=red@171.66.86.168] has quit [] 18:04:43 stassats: basically: it stands out too much, in that it requires an indent level. which makes people shove a bunch of bindings together at the top of a section of code when they're much easier to understand next to the code in question 18:05:03 and sometimes it's even worse, sometimes it'll cause people to bind a bunch of vars to nil at the top of a block of code and setf them below 18:05:11 just to avoid making all the code go off the screen to the right. :) 18:05:40 serichsen: what's wrong with FUNCALL directly? 18:05:41 same exact argument as for allowing in C/C++. 18:05:47 stassats: nothing 18:05:54 is it too hard to type? 18:06:09 stassats: it's just a convenience thing, like #' for FUNCTION 18:06:28 I think it allowed an improvement in code clarity there, and I think it would also be a similar improvement for lisp code. 18:06:31 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-17051a350aa84ac2] has joined #lisp 18:08:00 maybe, i can't really say anything without using it for some time 18:08:35 stassats: it is rarer in actual code, because you more often use higher order functions than write new ones 18:08:45 On the other hand, I don't see any point in #, though. :) 18:09:14 -!- jamief [n=jamie@158.223.53.104] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:09:41 I just see a symmetry between FUNCTION and FUNCALL, which would be reflected by the symmetry of #' and #, 18:11:48 alas, there are more important things, I guess 18:11:52 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:12:03 What do function and funcall have to do with one another? 18:13:20 Zhivago: "funcall #'" = "" 18:13:24 *kpreid* ducks 18:14:50 Sounds a bit confused to me. FUNCTION is the operator that produces functions. 18:15:01 funcall is just one operator that operates on functions 18:15:24 e.g., when you write (lambda (x) ...) it isn't lambda that produces the function, but the (function (lambda (x) ...)) that it turns into. 18:15:30 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:15:44 It sounds a bit like 'the symmetry' between defstruct and struct accessors. 18:15:45 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-112-40.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 18:16:17 FUNCTION : Names -> Functions / () : Names x Expressions -> Values / FUNCALL : Function x Expressions -> Values 18:16:19 well, I'm not saying this is a specifically *useful* perspective, but: FUNCTION is how you get a function value from a function-namespace entry. FUNCALL is how you use a value as a (function) operator. 18:16:33 Zhivago: and it happens that FUNCALL o FUNCTION = () 18:17:02 As kpreid expressed more concisely. 18:17:19 What about APPLY? 18:17:23 gonzojive [n=red@171.66.86.168] has joined #lisp 18:18:07 (FUNCALL x ...) = (APPLY x ... '()) 18:18:30 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslex082.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:18:52 APPLY's specialness is orthogonal to this argument, imo -- it's something else you can do with function values, like FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSION 18:19:03 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f706bfe.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 18:19:10 or funcall :) 18:20:29 Although, it should be noted that apply is the primitive operation here since you can implemnet funcall with apply, but not the other way around. 18:20:31 funcall is just the most basic thing to do with functions that are stored in variables 18:20:41 No, apply is. 18:21:04 silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-122-094.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:35 #' has shorthand syntax because it is used often 18:21:43 funcall is used somewhat less often 18:21:44 -!- silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-122-094.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:21:53 CL style has more using HOFs than defining HOFs 18:22:08 The disymetry funcall / apply comes from the allowance for several arguments. If we allowed only one argument per function (including tuples), there would be no difference between funcall and apply. 18:22:23 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 18:22:40 -!- guille_ [n=user@209.Red-81-36-242.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:24:32 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:24:44 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 18:25:12 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:25:23 -!- nunb` [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:26:23 i use functions i defined using funcall a lot more than i use funcall itself... syntax for lambda, that i could see an argument for... but not funcall. 18:27:10 -!- gonzojive [n=red@171.66.86.168] has quit [] 18:27:43 http://claar.informatimago.com:8006/14 18:27:43 http://claar.informatimago.com:8006/15 18:27:44 Could not draw that sexp for SB-INT:SIMPLE-READER-ERROR at 17 (line 1, column 17) on #:can't read #. while *READ-EVAL* is NIL 18:28:04 heh 18:28:07 pjb: some lag? 18:28:13 restart? 18:28:17 I bet it was sitting at a debugger prompt 18:28:20 yeah, must've been 18:28:31 kpreid: exactly! :-) 18:28:38 further, that it was not using serve-event 18:29:09 pjb: what happened to mine? 18:29:31 I could make a Q&D upgrade using Graphviz, but that'd be cheating. We like the nice ascii-arts don't we? 18:29:43 we likess it 18:29:51 pjb, yesterday I got really nice results with the syntax highlighting (also have some pictures, but don't know where to upload them :) 18:30:02 I have a question regarding eval-when 18:30:07 pjb: the upgrade I'd like to see is vector support 18:30:41 kpreid: Yes, I added vectors, structures, and hash-tables are planed too. Coming soon. 18:31:23 pjb, the reader seems to ignore (in-package ...) forms 18:32:01 the reader does not know anything about in-package forms 18:32:35 levy_: yes. 18:33:28 BTW, here is an example: http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/2230/screenshot1ppk.png 18:33:47 levy_: the key to understanding is that a LOADed file is like the repl. (loop (eval (read stream))) 18:34:03 so in this procedure, READ reads one complete top-level form 18:34:04 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:34:09 then it is evaluated 18:34:30 levy_: reader.lisp : parse-symbol-token uses cl:*package*; source-text.lisp: there's a commented out defclass source-symbol. See the comment just above. 18:34:33 a *form* does not have an effect when *read*, only when evaluated (or possibly compiled) 18:34:54 pjb, actually i uncommented those to be able to dispatch on symbols 18:35:16 kpreid, there's eval-when you know... 18:35:31 that's why I said "or possibly compiled" 18:35:41 you'll note that eval-when has no :READ time option 18:36:06 levy_: the point is that with source-text.lisp, it depends on the application, on how you want to handle these things. 18:37:01 levy_: notice for example, that lisp machine editors used file local variables to specify the read/print radix along with the package etc. Slime handle them too. 18:37:18 levy_: you will have to decide if and how you want to handle them too. 18:38:35 pjb, hmm, i would just need the symbols be interned (or found) in the same package where they were loaded by the system (when it actually did take care of in-package) 18:38:41 levy_: What application is that screenshot from? 18:39:30 pjb, it's from a web meta gui called WUI 18:39:59 BTW: the tooltip pops up lazily :) 18:40:23 levy_: you will be reading source forms one by one. Suddenly you have a source-list object, containing a source-symbol (since you put it back) whose name is IN-PACKAGE, and a source-string whose content is "CL-USER". What do you do of source-list objects such as this one? 18:40:49 levy_: that's nice for a WUI :-) 18:40:49 downloading the content from the server which looks up the definition location with sb-introspect, reads the whole file, searches for the definition, and syntax highlights... 18:40:51 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:43 levy_: you have to interpret the source-objects you read with source-text yourself (taking the precautions you want to take) to further read correctly. 18:42:19 levy_: to do it with some generality, we'd have actually to implement a whole new CL level, above the current implementation. #+#.(...) (in-package ..) 18:43:50 pjb, you are right, dragons be there in general, but it doesn't have to be perfect, it's main purpose is documentation 18:44:32 pjb, i guess the same issues arise for SLIME too 18:45:26 levy_: yes, you could at least handle source-list objects representing simple in-package forms. But you understand why I leave it up to the application. 18:45:46 How does is it that cliki is not overrun with spaM? 18:45:51 Be sure to have your own *source-package* variable distinct from *package* and you'll be ok. 18:46:06 rpg_ [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:07 tmh: we've got a good captcha! 18:46:50 -!- rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:46:57 i can type it only on 3-4th time 18:47:25 See how good it is? You have to be sober to update cliki! :-) 18:47:52 pjb: Seriously? That's all it takes? Why was ALU having such a problem? 18:48:03 No captcha. 18:48:34 pjb: I'm looking at the "captcha" and thought we were being generous calling it that. :-) 18:48:51 -!- rpg_ is now known as rpg 18:49:44 Well, you get to have some intelligence to realize that it's always the same. 18:49:54 A bot would try random words, or something. 18:50:06 Really, I'm grateful that cliki isn't overrun with spam, I'm just confused as to why and fearing comprehensively. 18:50:50 tmh: when I leave my apart, I leave the radio on. When I leave on holidays, I leave the windows open... 18:51:49 pjb: Heh, I do that in hotels. At home, I have a Labrador retriever. She has a wicked bark, but if anyone actually made it into the house, she'd give them a lick and get a ball to play fetch. 18:52:05 :-) 18:53:00 cliki is hosted by tech.coop, right? 18:54:06 They're both in 80.68/16. 18:54:58 80.68/16? 18:55:20 Oh, subnet, I'll look it up 18:55:22 nslookup or dig both. 18:55:31 yes, they're both ours. 18:55:57 But whois gives Daniel Barlow owns cliki.net vs. Chris Palecek owns tech.coop. 18:56:15 drewc keeps all the machines safe on his boat. 18:56:25 Ah! Better. 18:56:37 yeah, the domains are not ours. 18:56:43 Unfortunately, we only have his EDGE bandwidth ... 18:56:59 :) 18:57:27 schoppenhauer1 [n=senjak@host150.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:57:31 -!- schoppenhauer1 [n=senjak@host150.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:58:10 *tmh* imagines drewc standing on the dock while his boat sinks. "Crap, there goes the lisp 'community'." 18:58:42 Then he turns around and says, "Who wants pizza?" 18:58:50 mmm pizza. 18:58:53 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:59:18 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 18:59:37 okflo [n=user@91-115-85-64.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:00:52 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 19:02:32 i added recaptcha on the alu wiki simply because i think it's a cool thing. the source code for cliki.net is not something like to dig into anymore. 19:05:03 eventually i'd like to move cliki.net to the new wiki engine, but it's not a high priority. 19:07:06 you wanna recaptcha what exactly, drew? 19:09:04 another shot: http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/6981/screenshot3fct.png 19:09:39 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:10:38 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 19:11:23 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:11 levy_: I that a screenshot of a lisp IDE in firefox? 19:14:02 thm, actually this is a meta GUI we are using in web based business applications 19:14:14 but since it is a meta gui it is actually a pretty good inspector :) 19:14:27 editor, etc. 19:14:35 Ah, very intriguing. 19:14:53 it is certainly not an IDE and will not be a replacement for SLIME or something, that's not our goal 19:15:23 but we are going to make a live system which documents itself and for that we needed syntax highlighting, etc. 19:16:10 actually that screenshot shows some API functions used to create components... 19:16:39 how is sytax highlighting relevant to self documentation? 19:16:47 and it also works on types stored in a database with cl-perec, etc. 19:17:00 them "documantation" strings might be 19:17:27 jthing, code example is one of the best ways of documenting stuff 19:17:56 or showing what you can ho and how 19:18:07 *jthing* though the whole point of the documentation strings were that you didn't have to read the code to grasp the behaviour of the function 19:18:36 No, that's the purpose of the name of the function. 19:18:56 you always have to read the code (sooner or later) 19:18:57 :) 19:19:07 -!- nigugamesh [n=nigugame@c83-251-39-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["leaving"] 19:19:10 true 19:19:10 as long as the documentation is not the code... 19:19:24 Bah, it was hard to write, it should be hard to read. 19:19:34 lol 19:19:41 it's usually harder to read :-/ 19:19:42 levy_: any chance of that getting open-sourced? is the syntax highlighting in javascript or lisp? 19:19:49 *tmh* just tried to close the tab in levy_'s screenshot. 19:20:00 It didn't work 19:20:12 guaqua, it is BSD, just not yet visible to the public :) 19:20:22 neat :) 19:20:34 syntax highlight is implemted in CL 19:21:40 just like in old lispworks.. 19:21:41 repo is at http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-dwim/darcs/wui-unstable 19:21:47 but as it suggests, it is unstable yet 19:24:44 konr [n=konrad@189.96.193.213] has joined #lisp 19:25:03 |Frederik [n=frederik@78-21-58-3.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 19:25:36 speaking of unstable.. have you tried to develop any code with hunchentoot lately? 19:26:04 <|Frederik> Where can the sbcl 1.0.30 source tarball be downloaded? It was announced on freshmeat, but there's no tarball on the file releases page nor on sourceforge.net 19:26:46 some serious work is needed there.. 19:27:13 tmh: let me know when assert-sigfig-equal is upgraded ;) 19:27:58 forget the tarball and use clbuild.. 19:28:50 just make sure to choose a time when the -dev newsletter sais it is inactive.. 19:29:44 cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has joined #lisp 19:30:16 -!- leifw [n=user@69.181.142.8] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:30:24 leo2007: Actually, I have implemented the necessary changes, but I'm not pushing them to the repository until I can update my unit tests to use them and hash out any errors. Also, this has motivated to isolate some repeated code into a new package. In summary, don't expect the changes before something like 2200-UTC 19:31:04 |Frederik: there might be no place in particular 19:31:10 tmh: ;) I can hold on. 19:31:18 |Frederik: it was tagged for release, but i don't think it's been actually released fully 19:31:38 -!- Kickaha [n=user@bl5-16-107.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:32:10 <|Frederik> well, I was just looking at http://freshmeat.net/projects/sbcl 19:32:42 fusss [i=7380055d@gateway/web/freenode/x-918c829b036f8866] has joined #lisp 19:34:13 jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 19:34:27 Get your nationally appropriate insults from here 97.107.133.187:8080 19:34:34 test my geo-targetting 19:34:45 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 19:34:55 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit [Client Quit] 19:34:57 I want my money back. 19:35:04 haha 19:35:18 There's only one insult :( 19:35:18 is the insult the part where it calls me an american? 19:35:34 yes 19:36:02 i need a format directive that prints nationalities "US" ==> American, etc. 19:36:31 fusss: see cl-l10n 19:36:45 francogrex [n=franco@183.230-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 19:37:04 fusss: how dare you! 19:37:04 -!- milanj- [n=milan@93.86.214.158] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:37:06 fusss: identifies me (correctly) as an austrian :) (and a moron :) ) 19:37:11 i was only just serious there, but that's actually good to know it exists 19:37:25 okflo: cheers! 19:37:55 fusss: I've been called worse by my wife. 19:38:21 tmh: that's wrong, she has no right to call you an austrian 19:38:37 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has joined #lisp 19:38:59 pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has joined #lisp 19:39:44 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has quit [Client Quit] 19:40:41 *jthing* refreshes from CVS and recompiles SBCL from source 19:41:11 milanj [n=milan@93.86.214.158] has joined #lisp 19:42:13 now to compile in socket and swank support 19:42:36 (list (+ a b) (* a b) (/ 1a b2)) => The variable A is unbound. 19:42:53 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:42:53 but (setf *print-base* (setf *read-base* 16.)) 19:43:12 (15 6E D/59) 19:43:21 What has happened here? 19:43:37 I've seen this today, didn't get it. 19:44:00 a b and 1a and b2 are legal values in hex.. 19:44:32 ah ok, so that was hex representation 19:45:16 what is it's use? 19:45:23 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1F60.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:45:30 francogrex: depends on the domain. You may have to count in hexa. 19:46:01 francogrex: but the point of the demo here was to show that you cannot tell whether A or ABC is a symbol or a number. You have to know the *read-base* to know. 19:46:29 u wrote it i guess right? 19:46:32 francogrex: or you can write: |ABC| so it's always read as a symbol. 19:46:42 ISTR yes. 19:47:04 you see we learn from you, almost every day 19:47:23 :-) 19:47:54 is that from some tutorial? 19:48:23 no, it was an demo/answer pjb gave to someone 19:48:50 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:51:01 konr1 [n=konrad@189.98.83.87] has joined #lisp 19:52:04 anyone uses google codes to search (or post) for codes/algorithms written in common lisp? 19:52:45 francogrex: there's at least one, yes. 19:53:56 i think it's become the largest repository for all languages 19:54:26 i was happy to see a substantial amount of cl codes there 19:54:47 it doesn't suck. 19:55:08 services that don't suck usually surpass those that do suck in some substantial way 19:55:22 konr2 [n=konrad@189.96.102.136] has joined #lisp 19:55:25 what services suck? 19:56:01 sourceforge sucks because of all the ads. ui is cluttered, urls are not straightforward for files 19:56:08 that's just for sourceforge 19:56:55 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-9235.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 19:57:03 Is 'numeric-equality-predicates' too long for a package name? 19:57:11 and most importantly sourceforge doesn't have such a good searchable organized repo like google 19:57:31 lispm [n=joswig@e177157185.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:57:42 it also didn't develop anywhere for a long time 19:58:19 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-188.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 19:58:22 tmh, it is acceptable by my implementation 19:58:34 but i've seen more elegant package names 19:59:02 francogrex: I'm more interested in the aesthetics than limitations of an implementation, thanks. 19:59:06 konr3 [n=konrad@189.98.71.146] has joined #lisp 20:00:40 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:48 changing the print bas globally is always a bad idea 20:00:51 base 20:01:39 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-188.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:01:46 jthing, why and what's the default? 20:02:16 well the default is decimal just as you would expect 20:02:20 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:02:23 that is 10 20:02:38 -!- TauPan [n=taupan@dudelab.org] has left #lisp 20:02:39 What about 'math-predicates'? Although, I'm afraid that would imply more that what the package has to offer. 20:02:50 -!- konr1 [n=konrad@189.98.83.87] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:02:51 in fact never change the *print-.. globally. use let 20:03:18 jthing, makes sense 20:03:25 like let doesn't change it globally 20:03:27 tmh: You could call it "Hamhocks" and summarize its purpose in the first paragraph of its documentation. 20:04:18 is let supposed to set global changes? 20:04:34 let for a special variable changes it for all calls made from a function, which is not exactly globally, and usually what you want 20:05:07 Xach: *chuckle* I appreciate your point. 20:05:43 fe[nl]ix: herep 20:05:51 the change is the same as with setf, extent is different 20:06:16 ehu`: hi 20:06:18 true, but the extent is important 20:06:28 hi. remember my encoding issue from yesterday? 20:06:34 I'm still seeing the same issue. 20:06:42 however, I'm not understanding this bit: 20:06:45 interesting 20:07:07 stassats: ok, pedantic. I get your point. 20:07:12 (with-open-file (f "f" :direction :output) (sb-impl::fd-stream-external-format f)) --> :UTF-8 20:07:39 what's SBCLs identifier for UTF-8 encodings? UTF8 or UTF-8? 20:07:39 perhaps.. 20:08:02 say I load a file using load... how can I see a list of all functions and macros brought about just by that loaded file. I don't thgink it's a good idea to use do-symbols here... 20:08:19 ehu`: it's :UTF-8 20:08:32 ok. then I'm getting the correct response. 20:08:37 konr1 [n=konrad@189.98.73.122] has joined #lisp 20:08:50 so I'm still stuck 20:08:51 ehu`: i guess stream-external-format should be enough 20:09:00 -!- konr1 [n=konrad@189.98.73.122] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:09:05 francogrex: you cant, so you load it in a package and use the package commands 20:09:13 francogrex: why? 20:09:19 because the error still says (:EXTERNAL-FORMAT :ASCII) in the stream description for the file I'm writing to. 20:09:33 I'm opening without a specific external format specification. 20:09:50 what would cause the default external format to be set up differently? 20:10:03 Xach, because I'm intrested to see the functions listed. 20:10:32 francogrex: ok. why does that exclude do-symbols from the realm of good ideas? 20:10:49 because I get all runtime symbols as well 20:11:08 then load into some separate package 20:11:17 what is the per-file syntax for changing the print-case? I am sure a declaration or an eval-when of sorts does that (ignoring the obvious but ugly big-let) 20:11:32 francogrex: you certainly could not use it only once. 20:11:35 ok, i'll define a package, go in there and load it 20:11:59 do-symbols or the equivalent loop predicates work well if YOU HAVEN*T CLUTTERED THE GLOBAL NAME SPACE. use a package 20:12:16 -!- konr [n=konrad@189.96.193.213] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:12:34 francogrex: one option is to use DO-SYMBOLS before loading to make a snapshot of the current macros and functions. then load the file and make another snapshot. then compare snapshots. 20:13:05 -!- tvaalen [n=tvaal@unaffiliated/tvaal] has left #lisp 20:13:08 corner cases abound. 20:13:19 do-all-symbols then, since it can contain in-package 20:14:39 yes, that would be better. 20:15:14 -!- konr3 [n=konrad@189.98.71.146] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:15:34 -!- konr2 [n=konrad@189.96.102.136] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:15:54 I prefer loop for this as it allows finer control 20:16:10 ehu`: try that in a sbcl started with --no-userinit --no-sysinit 20:16:41 ok. 20:17:22 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has joined #lisp 20:19:16 jthing, what syntax would you use with the loop? say i have (load "c:/test.lisp") 20:19:34 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 20:19:35 or (load "c:/test.fas") actually 20:26:58 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:27:38 inside package "lala", I loaded the file but when lala> (do-symbols (s) (print s)) I get everything else. Also with d-all-symbols I'm getting everything else together 20:28:04 bacuse the common-lisp-user stuff is also exported 20:28:14 francogrex: did you understand my suggestion? 20:28:31 Xach, yes but it's painful and I'm lazy 20:28:44 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:28:52 i want the pc to do the stuff for me 20:29:01 I don't think there is a painless solution. 20:29:17 If you want to fumble around with stupid halfassed attempts, it will be more work than doing it right. 20:29:25 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:30:26 ok, will do it ur way then 20:30:59 -!- rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:32:24 jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 20:34:29 -!- jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:34:43 jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 20:34:44 like I am usually only interested in exported symbold 20:34:52 sumbols 20:35:19 you mean symbols 20:35:25 yes 20:35:41 benny [n=benny@i577A2A30.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:37:22 dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:29 normally I would refer to loop for back belts in Practical common lisp (www.gigamonkeys.com/book) 20:37:51 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:37:56 but this doesn't seem well described there 20:38:05 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:38:42 it's ok did this: (do-symbols (s) (push s my-list1)) then loaded the file and pushed s into my-list2 20:39:03 no all needed is to set the difference 20:39:14 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 20:40:03 loop for each present-symbol of *package* do 20:40:26 exported-symbol etc 20:40:46 fe[nl]ix: same thing 20:40:50 also utf-8 20:40:57 so now I lost it. 20:41:16 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:41:18 for x beiing each. 20:41:22 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 20:42:28 mjf [n=mjf@r3a82.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 20:42:28 Common Lisp the language 2 by Guy Steele has some examlpes 20:42:29 what's the opposite of INTERSECTION 20:42:42 union? 20:42:43 jthing, will lokk at that as well 20:43:02 jthing, yeah... but also the other 2 options 20:43:14 like : in A but not in B 20:43:21 actually the oposite is set difference or - 20:43:23 and in B but not in A 20:43:32 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:43:58 set-difference right! 20:44:22 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 20:47:04 this sucks differnce is nil 20:47:34 althou i know there are 285 more symbols 20:47:56 eql symbold? 20:48:01 symbols 20:48:24 be carefull what you call symbols 20:48:45 i used :test #'equal 20:49:40 now that makes no sense unless there are case differences 20:49:46 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:49:53 francogrex: do you have the right order of paramters for set-difference? (set-difference list-with-new-symbols old-snapshot-of-symbols) 20:50:15 okflo: right 20:50:41 got it 20:51:00 -!- LamaWarPig5 [n=user7994@187.10.17.28] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:51:17 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:52:10 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:36 well now that i have all symbols, hard to know which is a symbol for a function and which is just a symbol floating around 20:54:10 that's when you have no documentation at all 20:54:16 so you check the type of symbol. 20:54:17 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:54:44 the symbol- family 20:55:20 type-of? 20:55:48 asksol [n=ask@249.241.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:55:49 is it a symbol-function a symbol-variable a symbol-plist what is it's symbol-name 20:56:03 francogrex: there are better ways... but a example: (defun is-symbol-a-function (f) 20:56:03 (if (ignore-errors (symbol-function f)) 20:56:03 t nil)) 20:56:04 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:22 -!- fusss [i=7380055d@gateway/web/freenode/x-918c829b036f8866] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 20:56:30 okflo: Why not fboundp? 20:56:46 sellout: thanx :) 20:56:50 indeed, was about to suggest that 20:56:53 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:10 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:57:23 or boundp for a variable 20:57:24 isn't fboundp supposed to work on function object not symbols? 20:58:05 cmo-0, but then that's what i need. i need to know which are the functions 20:58:08 cmo-0: It would be easy to implement that ... (defun fboundp (function-object) t) 20:58:32 it is difficult do remember all the f-functions: fboundp, fmakunbound, ... :) 20:58:33 (defun x () 'hi) (functionp 'x) -> nil (functionp (function x)) -> t 20:59:01 cmo-0: Umm .... 20:59:21 cmo-0: fboundp works on symbols, functionp is not a part of this conversation. 20:59:21 fboundp only works on symbols af far as I can tell from the spec 20:59:46 jthing: I was making a joke 21:00:00 jthing, so what can fboundp miss in my case then? 21:00:27 I see, thanks! 21:00:32 a lambda form? 21:01:33 Seriously don't worry about it. 21:01:47 does any current CL implementation support loading files inside transactions? 21:02:03 yeah, i'm only inetrested in those with defun... fboundp seems to work just fine 21:03:24 (loop for i in diff when (fboundp i) collect i)) is all I needed 21:03:26 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r3a82.net.upc.cz] has quit ["GNU is *indeed* No UNIX!"] 21:03:50 cmo-0, what's meant by transactions? 21:04:19 need to sperate methods from functions? 21:05:25 If so ... (and (fboundp symbol) (typep (fdefinition symbol) 'generic-function)) 21:05:26 (remove-if-not #'fboundp diff) 21:05:50 suppose i want to load some file into my running image (i.e. remote application - hot loading). then i want to load (apply new definitions ... etc) that file iff there was no error generated during the loading operation. 21:06:10 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:06:50 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@67.100.118.26] has joined #lisp 21:07:14 in short i do not to have my running image in half updated-status! 21:09:18 to load or not to load ;) 21:09:31 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:46 -!- kmels is now known as kmels-noesta 21:10:22 btw, anyone here managed to get snap4 to Save World correctly? 21:13:35 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-59-31.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:13:48 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-59-31.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:30 jao [n=jao@76.Red-88-18-100.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:05 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483FE71.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:17:04 mdavid_ [n=mdavid@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:19:03 -!- mdavid_ [n=mdavid@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:22:10 -!- sellout [n=greg@63.107.91.105] has quit [] 21:22:20 ehu`: the next suggestion would be to trace all functions in sb-impl and run that w-o-f 21:22:51 "in Lisp, you can routinely save the world" 21:23:20 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-79-16.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:25:23 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:27:22 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:27:25 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:27:52 jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 21:29:39 *pjb* is checking out Apollo Guidance Computer software sources... 21:29:42 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit [Client Quit] 21:30:16 wanna travel? 21:31:07 If I had time, what would be funny is to rewrite it in lisp. 21:31:47 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-160-175-31.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:31:49 that would be a good stunt, particularly if you could keep it under ten pages :) 21:31:50 First to understand it (assembler is not particularly readable, at least for this kind of software, and being written at that time), and second to see how small a program it was. 21:31:53 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:32:11 hefner: ten pages, it might be too many. 21:32:25 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:32:30 it'd be a better stunt if it fit on two pages. 21:33:23 pjb: maybe they'll release the macro language sources from which the asm was hand-compiled. 21:34:05 pkhuong: that'd be a couple of mathematical formulas such as you can find in any physics book. 21:35:40 pjb: they actually did program the logic in a computerised macro language. 21:36:01 *francogrex* is away 21:36:53 Modius_ [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #lisp 21:37:06 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 21:39:12 konr [n=konrad@189.96.105.86] has joined #lisp 21:39:40 -!- Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:40:21 gonzojive [n=red@c-98-207-156-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:57 s0ber [i=pie@118-160-165-59.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:11 serichsen, you can optimize the World, even 21:41:23 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-194.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:28 seen the mail response by Stefan? 21:41:39 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:42:59 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:43:02 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:25 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-98-207-156-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:46:59 -!- francogrex [n=franco@183.230-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:48:39 -!- |Frederik [n=frederik@78-21-58-3.access.telenet.be] has left #lisp 21:49:42 S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has joined #lisp 21:52:44 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:53:56 Hm. Is it sane to want to have a lexically modified slot? 21:54:03 kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:54:50 no 21:55:32 tic: Maybe ContextL is what you are thinking of? Ask drewc. 21:56:25 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:28 Anything done that way would be dynamic. 21:56:39 contextl is dynamic, not lexical 21:57:10 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229175133.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 21:57:32 *drewc* is deep in contextl land right now. 21:57:46 first class dynamic environments are cool. 21:58:22 I was thinking that if tic wanted something to lexically modified, it might be doable with contexts instead of with lexical scope. 21:58:30 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-111.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:51 drewc pasted "first class dynamic environments + dynamic slots" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84101 21:58:52 doable as in the abstract. 21:59:35 -!- kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:59:37 here is the midnight image: http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7284/screenshot4i.png 22:00:52 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 22:01:03 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:01:47 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:53 levy_: what's that ? 22:01:57 Gah, out of time. 22:02:45 minion: memo for leo2007, assert-sigfig-equal is working for my tests, I'll get it submitted to the public git repository later tonight. 22:02:45 Remembered. I'll tell leo2007 when he/she/it next speaks. 22:03:09 fe[nl]ix, nothing fancy, a graph widget with stupid content 22:03:20 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:03:21 merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:59 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:04:22 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:07:12 tmh, yeah, was thinking about that. although it's probably silly. 22:07:33 (e.g. my use case could probably be solved in an easier way) 22:07:40 -!- levy_ [n=levy@apn-94-44-8-164.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 22:10:23 What I have is a class with some float slots and a name. (foods and nutrients, actually). then I want to multiple them when printing them out. but, the straight-forward way of having another class with the slots food and amount is probably what I want. 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[n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:28 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 23:10:20 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:13:40 -!- coderdad_ [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:14:13 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 23:15:33 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-33-103.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 23:15:54 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-76-86.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:16:38 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:16:48 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:17:04 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:23 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:19:09 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:20:33 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:21:32 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 23:21:46 bah. what are we supposed to use instead of sb-unix:unix-file-kind? 23:22:15 -!- Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:22:21 -!- mdavid [n=mdavid@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:23:03 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 23:23:41 konr [n=konrad@189.96.105.86] has joined #lisp 23:24:44 slyrus_: sb-impl::native-file-kind is you feel adventurous 23:25:00 ok, thanks fe[nl]ix 23:25:38 it would be nice if there were an exported function that did the same thing 23:26:09 where nice means making it easy for me to trivially fix kmrcl without using an unexported function 23:27:13 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 23:27:17 kmrcl ? 23:27:45 kmr's catch-all utility package 23:28:30 do you use it ? 23:29:11 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:29:38 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:49 well, his pubmed package does, and I use that 23:31:56 also, IANALL, but I don't see where in CLHS it says that print-object can't specialize on the second arg, but according to SBCL: "Specializing on the second argument to PRINT-OBJECT has unportable effects, and also interferes with precomputation of print functions for exceptional situations." 23:32:16 slyrus_: ask Xof 23:32:25 Krystof: around? 23:35:02 There's "In some implementations the stream argument passed to a print-object method is not the original stream, but is an intermediate stream that implements part of the printer. methods should therefore not depend on the identity of this stream." 23:35:59 While the text says "identity", it's also clear that the stream may be arbitrarily modified, so that identity would also include the class. 23:37:12 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit ["leaving"] 23:42:51 pkhuong: hrm... it seems to me that in that case the worst that would happen would be that your method wouldn't get called. 23:44:22 bwat74 [n=bwat@host-90-232-7-129.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 23:45:31 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:50:19 -!- bwat74 [n=bwat@host-90-232-7-129.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:50:23 Demosthenes [n=demo@host-66-235-80-184.warpspeed1.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:41 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:55:04 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-21-24.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 23:55:43 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:55:55 -!- 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