00:04:13 -!- jao [n=jao@187.Red-83-50-68.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:04:15 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-146-41.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:09:17 How can I code a prompt that will return the first two alpha-numeric characters entered (without waiting for a )? Let'n say the first two characters entered are aa; the prompt should return 'aa . 00:10:07 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:10:27 -!- morganb [n=user@ip24-136-41-126.ga.at.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:11:03 lat_: what implementation? 00:11:42 Xach, sbcl 00:12:14 lat_: when i wanted to do that, i did some foreign function stuff to change the input mode of the terminal to raw. 00:12:38 i don't know if there is an easier way, though, sorry. clisp has some builtin stuff called EXT:WITH-KEYBOARD iirc 00:14:05 and it wouldn't work with slime, for example 00:14:15 mdavid [n=mdavid@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 00:14:17 right 00:14:26 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:14:32 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:14:41 so it's more interface specific 00:16:07 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:16:52 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.127] has joined #lisp 00:19:08 Xach, and stassats` , I'm trying to make a menu to use with the stumpwm. I will hit C-M-m to bring up the menu, then hit 2 characters to launch a program using the execv function stassats` made for me. 00:19:29 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:06 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-157-99.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:21:02 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@113.77.50.61] has joined #lisp 00:22:34 menu for starting programs? why do you need execv only (without fork)? 00:22:39 Hmm, anybody remember what John Fremlin's nickname is? 00:22:48 Thanks again for that function, stassats` 00:23:22 luis: cmell 00:24:57 I came across his TPD2 presentation on youtube and he claims what SBCL doesn't expand compiler macros recursively. Not sure what he means. 00:25:12 luis pasted "seems to work" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83890 00:25:25 Anybody know what he's talking about? 00:26:06 stassats`, I want the menu to immediately exit from memory leaving the program it launched running. If the menu stays in memory it clutters up stumpmw with a useless window. 00:27:13 -!- Kickaha [n=jadawin@240.137.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit ["leaving"] 00:27:21 lat_: so you implement menu as an external program relative to stumpwm? 00:27:33 why not implement it by means of stumpwm? 00:28:59 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72ff67.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:29:50 stassats`, if I do that won't it kill stumpwm once it launches a program? 00:30:11 -!- jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:30:41 well, in that case, use RUN-PROGRAM, which uses fork+execv under the hood 00:30:50 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:31:06 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Running-external-programs.html 00:31:37 -!- mdavid [n=mdavid@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:38:15 stassats`, will run-program exit immediately after launching a program? or does it wait for the launched program to finish? 00:38:34 yes! 00:38:38 there is :wait option 00:39:26 OK, great! 00:40:18 Now, what about my prompt question; 00:40:47 is there an easy way to make such a prompt? 00:43:48 -!- meingbg [n=user@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:43:49 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable239.238-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:44:43 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-8b0784766d40773d] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:45:28 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:45:39 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:47:10 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:47:40 meingbg [n=user@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:33 -!- photon is now known as Guest82724 00:49:09 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:28 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 00:51:41 When resolving symbol conflicts during use-package, slime does not seem to catch the menu - it shows up in the lisp terminal instead. 00:51:44 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:51:47 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:51:47 -!- jyujin [n=jyujin@d221-88-81.commercial.cgocable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:51:58 jyujin [n=jyujin@d221-88-81.commercial.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:11 meingbg: i wish slime was aware of it. that would be cool! 00:52:26 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:52:29 Xach: What do you mean? 00:52:47 You wish it would catch that meu? 00:53:17 *menu 00:53:41 The prompt is the only thing holding me back. Xach , do you have some sample code you would be willing to share? 00:53:42 i believe someone had a slime contrib for dealing with package conflicts 00:54:02 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:54:05 meingbg: yes. that is the implementation's handler, not slime's. 00:54:22 stassats`: it's been a wishlist of mine for a while. i thought someone (antifuchs?) looked at it once. 00:54:26 lat_: no. 00:55:22 Oh, so the prompts that actually show up in slime are errors thrown that can be catched or something, a standard CL thing? 00:55:47 meingbg: yes. 00:57:55 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:58:12 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:58:58 Maybe this wishlist item can be implemented on the SBCL side instead of the SLIME side? By implementing the conflict resolver as a continuable error, perhaps? Maybe it could be an option *package-resolver-as-continuable-error* that is set to t by the swank loader? 01:00:44 Xach: http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/slime-devel/2008-August/015283.html 01:01:48 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:27 stassats`: thanks 01:04:34 good old michaelw 01:04:38 -!- Guest82724 [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:06:06 luis: The only scenario that comes to mind that fits "not expanding compiler macros recursively" is the possibility of a compiler-macro expanding to a slightly different call to the same function. I could see that not causing the macro to re-trigger. The obvious workaround if that is indeed the case is to expand to a progn with only one form in the body. 01:06:58 tic_ [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 01:06:58 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:07:07 -!- kmels is now known as kmels-cena 01:07:27 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-99-50-122-218.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 01:07:56 *nyef* heads off to bed. 01:10:23 krumholt_: is that excercise you mentioned from a book or a class? I've seen a few people asking for help with it, and i've never come across the need to do so in all my years of programming, so i've curious :) 01:11:01 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:11:07 drewc: you've curious, I have george 01:11:08 stassats`: so it seems my suggestion was possible... since already implemented. 01:11:26 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:11:46 i've _become_ curious :) 01:14:37 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 01:14:39 drewc: it's one of the l99 problems 01:14:58 Ralith: project euler? 01:15:19 no 01:15:21 l99 01:15:47 minion, chant 01:15:47 MORE PROBLEMS 01:15:52 Ralith: ah, I saw 199, not l99. 01:16:21 you need a better font 01:16:31 *hefner* doesn't understand how folks can have so little of interest to hack on that they go looking for silly programming problems 01:17:09 hefner: I'm sure you can come up with interesting projects for such people 01:17:32 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:20 probably not. 01:18:40 drewc, neither it's something i actually need for a project 01:19:12 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:19:15 *Fare* waits as ASDF-DEPENDENCY-GROVEL goes through 276003 lines of code... 01:21:07 ... scary 01:21:16 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:21:16 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 01:21:29 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:27 Adamant [n=Adamant@66.213.192.210] has joined #lisp 01:23:28 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:23:30 -!- tic_ [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:24:15 -!- kmels-cena is now known as kmels 01:24:34 gko [n=Keca@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 01:24:34 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 01:25:28 big thanks to antifuchs, and to msteele 01:35:13 krumholt_: just what are you doing in this project? 01:36:26 Ralith, it's a lexer. The result is somewhat like (symbol symbol string string symbol) and i wan to know how many symbols in a row and how many strings etc 01:36:58 cool 01:37:21 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:37:54 krum: That might fit nicely with reduce, btw. 01:38:44 krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-49-64.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 01:38:49 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-123-83.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:42:00 ugh, EQUAL compares numbers with EQL? 01:42:18 I've never noticed that part, and it sounds rather stupid 01:42:21 would you prefer to conpare numbers a different way? 01:42:25 yes, with = 01:42:36 ah. 01:42:53 performance-sensitive code? 01:43:07 Ralith: eql will likely be faster than =. 01:43:14 if I go all the way to compare things structurally, failing to consider equal values of different numeric types as equal is dumb 01:43:16 mathrick: if we're ignoring type information, we might also consider all sequence types equivalent. 01:43:56 ajhager_ [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:19 mathrick: treating 1 and 1.0 as equal is not what you want in many algorithms 01:44:23 pkhuong: uh, equal already compares structures. Numbers don't have any structure, so insisting on having them artificially unequal because of types is terribly counter-intuitive 01:44:31 it makes a lot of sense to me 01:45:02 then why isn't there a predicate that compares with = and doesn't munge character cases at the same time? 01:45:23 mathrick: because the set of equality class definitions is uncountable. 01:46:01 you're welcome to write one! 01:46:16 pkhuong: that doesn't make them equal 01:47:00 no, it makes exhaustive enumeration obviously impractical. 01:48:28 obviously, but there are certain things that are more sensible/useful than others. Considering similiar lists, but not similar numbers equal strikes me as neither 01:48:54 so does adding case-munging to the version that doesn't show this behaviour 01:48:57 it's a matter of opinion 01:49:03 go write your own equality predicate and be happy :P 01:49:29 Ralith: I wonder what kind of perf hit that will be 01:49:34 the standard is not supposed to cover every possible need; this is Lisp. The standard offers convenience functions such that you might have an easier time fulfilling your needs on your own. 01:49:52 mathrick: insignificant, I'm sure, especially if you optimize it correctly. 01:50:01 premature optimization is the greatest of sins, etc. 01:52:03 mathrick: Why do you say that numbers don't have any structure? 01:52:37 pkhuong: do the SSE3 instructions help with complex float implementation? 01:52:48 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:52:49 Zhivago: because they don't. They don't have parts which would make them up 01:53:09 mathrick: That's obviously nonsense. Things have whatever structure that you destructure them with. 01:53:20 mathrick: What is the structure of a complex number? 01:53:25 Zhivago: please show subparts of 4 01:53:47 mathrick: real:4, imaginary:0 01:54:06 mathrick: integer:4, fractional:0 01:54:08 why aren't you destructuring them as quaternions? 01:54:22 mathrick: Because I don't feel like it -- but go ahead. 01:54:36 mathrick, feel free to write your own equality predicate 01:54:37 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:54:41 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:54:48 mathrick: This is one of the basic lessons that lisp should have taught you -- structure is all about how you access things. 01:54:53 slava: they would for multiplication. 01:54:53 Zhivago: but that's exactly what I said. Numbers have values, not parts, and their values can be compared for equality in meaningful ways 01:55:12 mathrick: Values have parts. 01:55:12 ADDSUB is clearly meant for complex mult. 01:55:56 -!- erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:56:22 mathrick: dually, and sequences only have parts. The rest are just an implementation details that affect performance. 01:56:36 mathrick: Yes, and you can write predicates which compare for the meaningful ways that you're interested in today. 01:57:02 mathrick: Complaining that the ways people did it yesterday aren't those is just silly. 01:57:22 mathrick: You might as well complain that you're not comparing it in the traditional ways. 01:58:38 Zhivago: well, if numbers have parts, then you should compare them structurally just like you do with lists in EQUAL. 4 decomposes to 4:0, so does 4.0. Clearly their structure is similar (in the spec sense) 01:58:48 matherick: Nonsense. 01:59:20 Adlai` [n=user@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:28 matherick: You've ignored the code-char part of 4 -- that's not the same as the code-char part of 4.0 01:59:43 Zhivago: deliberately distorting my nickname is just childish, do you expect me to start calling you names now or something? 01:59:47 matherick: They're clearly structurally different :) 02:00:08 mathrick: Well, I didn't ask you to pick a stupid name. Stop getting upset about typos. 02:02:31 erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 02:03:47 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 02:07:21 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.127] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:07:38 -!- erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:08:11 wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d81711a.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 02:08:15 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 02:08:42 erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 02:09:55 -!- dreish_ [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:11:59 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has quit [] 02:13:43 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-111.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:33 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Operation timed out] 02:16:55 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:20:31 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@113.77.50.61] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:21:32 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:21:54 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:22:06 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@113.77.50.61] has joined #lisp 02:23:00 hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:06 -!- wakeup_vanuber [n=wakeup@koln-4db43a39.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:24:32 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:24:36 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 02:27:25 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:27:38 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 02:28:05 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 02:32:10 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:32:37 -!- ajhager_ is now known as ajhager 02:37:31 nerdshark [n=dorkfish@74-131-32-72.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 02:39:19 -!- konr [n=konrad@189.96.93.228] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:40:32 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:42:44 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:42:48 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@113.77.50.61] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:47:26 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 02:51:26 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.127] has joined #lisp 02:51:56 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@113.77.50.61] has joined #lisp 02:54:04 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-111.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:55:38 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ecda8930098ec53d] has joined #lisp 02:55:38 konr [n=konrad@189.96.68.133] has joined #lisp 02:58:10 WarWeasle [n=brad@98.220.168.14] has joined #lisp 02:59:47 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:00:04 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 03:01:07 Hello, I want to call a *long* set of commands. Then I want to see if I defined a function, if so call the function, if not just return what the commands gave me. I don't want to duplicate the commands or make a new function. I know there must be a way. Any ideas? 03:02:26 Also a (funcall (if (exists func) func quote) seems bad for some reason. 03:05:34 Oh well, I'll just use a variable... 03:06:19 -!- xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:07:32 WarWeasle: you could use prog1 and return-from, but it'd be simpler to just use a variable. 03:08:56 Ralith: Thanks. I was thinking there had to be a "Lisp Way" 03:09:11 Ralith: Something I hadn't figured out yet. 03:10:08 jlf` [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-82.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:11:12 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable239.238-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 03:13:22 What seems bad about using if like that? 03:14:06 Apart from you probably wanting #'identity rather than quote 03:14:09 Zhivago: It doesn't seems to flow like the rest of lisp does. But I could "write a macro"(TM) 03:15:25 Zhivago: I didn't even know about identity. I like that 03:16:10 Zhivago: Anyway, I assumed I missed something clever. 03:17:58 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 03:18:48 I don't see why you'd need a macro -- wouldn't a function be sufficient? 03:19:12 ManateeL` [n=user@113.77.29.199] has joined #lisp 03:19:50 Zhivago: The macro would be a wrapper around (funcall (if exists func #'identity) &rest ...) 03:20:39 konr1 [n=konrad@189.0.4.217] has joined #lisp 03:20:39 Or you could just write a function like (maybe func) 03:21:15 Zhivago: Oh yeah. At run time. That makes more sense. 03:21:23 tes1236 [i=cea9e224@gateway/web/freenode/x-12d3bde2d3bca6b9] has joined #lisp 03:25:49 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:26:02 Or (if exists (funcall fn args) args), if I'm understanding the question. 03:27:10 -!- tes1236 [i=cea9e224@gateway/web/freenode/x-12d3bde2d3bca6b9] has left #lisp 03:30:47 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 03:34:16 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:23 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@113.77.50.61] has quit [Success] 03:35:23 -!- konr [n=konrad@189.96.68.133] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:36:49 -!- konr1 is now known as konr 03:37:29 pinterface: That's what I'm doing. I just didn't want to use a variable. 03:38:48 WarWeasle: Ah. I assumed your data was already in a variable. 03:40:11 pinterface: (setf me (NOT (super (lisp (programmer (133t)))))) 03:41:01 WarWeasle: using a macro would be the simplest way to not appear to use a variable. 03:41:14 the fact that it actually does use a variable when compiled shouldn't matter. 03:41:21 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-113-36.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 03:41:53 Ralith: I'm just using a variable now. I can write the macro later if I use the idea a lot. 03:42:13 that's best, of course. 03:42:36 -!- ManateeL` [n=user@113.77.29.199] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:43:05 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2C2BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:15 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@113.77.29.199] has joined #lisp 03:43:19 *sykopomp* wonders what's wrong with making a macro that auto-quotes its argument, and does an (fdefinition 'arg) lookup. 03:43:38 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:43 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-113-36.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:44:01 actually 03:44:03 although if you wouldn't feel offended by just doing (lookup-command 'name) instead of (lookup-command name), a macro isn't really necessary. 03:44:03 WarWeasle: why not 03:44:11 or maybe I misunderstand the problem here? 03:44:29 WarWeasle: (funcall (or #'yourfunc #'identity) args)? 03:44:44 oh, wait 03:44:50 #'undefined is an error 03:44:51 damn 03:45:04 could handler-case it to nil but that's just getting silly 03:45:13 ignore-errors? :P 03:45:15 Ralith: that's why you wrap (fdefinition foo) in HANDLER-CASE 03:45:32 I'll take the 70% solution. It may not be lispy but it works. 03:45:36 Ralith: that's not really silly, if what he wants to do is look up whether a function exists, or not, right? 03:45:55 sykopomp: it's silly to go to that amount of effort to not use let. 03:46:24 I guess I'm not quite clear on what the problem is. 03:46:32 from reading the backlog, it's confusing. 03:46:50 I'll put $2 down and bet that macros and variables are most likely not the solution, though. 03:47:48 I'm not sure of the details but the gist I got was that he wanted to avoid using a variable in code that normally would require one 03:48:37 he should use the Y combinator, if variables offend him. 03:48:39 ;) 03:49:02 Ralith: Yeah. I'm just OMG....the Y combinator...It's way to late to learn about those. 03:49:09 the what 03:49:37 hydrapheetz: fixed-point combinator. Recursion for anonymous functions, basically. It's a joke :) 03:49:43 Oh 03:50:16 WarWeasle: why do you find 'variables' offensive? 03:50:19 sykopomp: how does the Y combinator help you eliminate variables? 03:50:19 did they bully you or something? 03:50:35 slava: by not having to do labels! 03:50:46 waste of namespace, you know. 03:50:49 I was attacked by variables in C and Visual Basic. And Perl. It was scary. 03:51:26 WarWeasle: I'm mostly just unclear on exactly what you're trying to achieve. Maybe take a step back and explain the problem itself, instead of the solutions you've tried? 03:51:26 sykopomp: seems like the Y combiantor replaces a function reference with a variable reference essentially 03:52:02 I have a list of functions that act as transforms. If they exist I want to apply them in order. 03:52:32 slava: right. 03:52:42 slava: bad example, then? :( 03:53:02 lol 03:53:15 WarWeasle: okay. You have functions in a list. How are you expecting to find those functions? What's your ideal interface? 03:54:28 sykopomp: A class with a list of named event-handlers and then a pre-handler, a post hander and a default handler. 03:55:07 WarWeasle: sounds like you're reimplementing CLOS methods. 03:55:09 you mean, :before, :after, and primary methods? 03:55:23 Ralith: he might have been referring to them... 03:55:36 coffeemug [n=coffeemu@c-69-181-142-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:50 sykopomp: doesn't sound like it to me. 03:56:08 :( 03:56:13 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:16 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has left #lisp 03:56:18 I need to add and remove handler functions on the fly. 03:56:32 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:47 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has left #lisp 03:56:59 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:31 Anyway. It's bed time and wife is glaring at me. 03:58:13 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@113.77.29.199] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:58:21 I'll look at the CLOS closer, but it seems like it would be harder. 03:58:23 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:58:25 -!- krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-49-64.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:58:37 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@98.220.168.14] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:58:48 Ralith: sounds like he needs sheeple, amirite? 03:58:50 ;D 03:58:59 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:00 :D 03:59:20 Ralith: bookmark my blog, yo. 03:59:27 hello sirs 03:59:33 pizzledizzle: hello. 03:59:40 sykopomp: whar 03:59:52 --> other channel 04:00:23 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2FC5B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Network is unreachable] 04:00:34 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:55 faure [n=moe@CPE001217e40caa-CM0018c0c09832.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:03:15 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:03:41 kgn_ [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:05:18 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-4fe070d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 04:08:28 -!- WaGE [n=WaGE@pool-70-18-18-20.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 04:09:32 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-145.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 04:10:03 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.127] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:10:43 -!- coffeemug [n=coffeemu@c-69-181-142-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:11:49 sunwukong [n=vukung@ortros.den.rcast.u-tokyo.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 04:15:59 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-4fe070d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:21:02 Good morning. 04:21:18 gut evenink 04:24:05 What did I miss? 04:26:06 Ah, at least one more newbie I see: pizzledizzle! 04:26:13 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 04:26:15 morning 04:26:19 hello splittist 04:27:24 splittist: Whatever happened to that dired thing (the name of which I keep forgetting) for McCLIM that you were working on? 04:29:04 FTD. It ran into issues with the then CFI 04:29:31 splittist: I see. What was the problem? 04:29:41 s/CFI/CFFI and CFFI-Unix projects, languished sufficiently to get out of sync with McCLIM, and I haven't touched it since. 04:29:45 -!- kgn_ [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:30:00 What did you need CFFI for? 04:30:56 beach: to get the directory information by calling the underlying c/os listing primitives. 04:31:32 splittist: Would't it be possible to use the Posix extension? Or was it a portability issue? 04:31:47 beach: trying to parse the output of /bin/ls was Too Difficult given the ways LANG and a million other env vars and dotfiles could alter it. 04:32:21 -!- Adlai` [n=user@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:32:28 beach: I was trying to be portable at the time. CFFI-UNIX worked well for a second, but it was a project in flux that eventually was absorbed into CFFI, really. 04:32:47 splittist: What made you choose to use /bin/ls as opposed to some API to the OS? 04:34:13 beach: I started with /bin/ls, then switched to C cals when it didn't work for you, if I remember correctly. 04:34:26 The stuff in darcs is (I'm pretty sure) all OS. 04:34:43 -!- spacebat_ is now known as spacebat 04:34:50 beach: other stuff in the app calls grep and find anyway. 04:36:00 What it needs (I think) is: (a) update the Tab code to use the cleaned-up Tab stuff now in McClim; (b) update the CFFI stuff to use the current CFFI implementation; (d) Profit! 04:36:24 Sounds plausible. 04:36:28 beach: I don't have a working McClim setup on my 'dev' machine at the moment, so I can't see myself doing that. 04:37:01 beach: FTD is very small, but has a surprising number of features (all cribbed from dired, obviously) 04:37:10 It just doesn't work (: 04:38:04 splittist: I'll suggest it to my Vietnamese students! 04:41:45 how similar is common lisp and emacs' lisp? 04:41:51 luke [n=luke@ppp58C1.dsl.pacific.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:42:01 beach: they should feel free to take it! If they want a different licence, I can do that, too. (I think it's MIT at the moment.) 04:42:22 pizzledizzle: Superficially very similar, but semantically very different. Emacs Lisp uses dynamic scoping in the pre-Scheme tradition. 04:42:43 splittist: OK, I'll keep that in mind. Nothing will happen until August anyway. 04:55:50 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 04:56:17 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 04:56:29 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-127.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:57:05 pizzledizzle: did you faint? 05:01:03 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.127] has joined #lisp 05:03:16 good morning. 05:03:32 still on track for August, beach? 05:03:54 tic: Yep. I have no ticket yet though, and I haven't decided the exact dates. 05:04:14 beach, that's alright. I'll be on vacation anyway. 05:04:53 (I do hope you are coming, though! Unlike me, heh. :-)) 05:05:22 tic: Yes, I am. 05:05:24 err. Vacation as in "I'll met up whenever you decide to come." 05:05:31 tic: Sure. 05:05:32 good! 05:08:30 Oh, this is bad! When it is 20°C at 7:00, the day is going to be very hot. 05:09:44 Ouch. 05:13:05 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:13:10 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 05:14:13 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 05:17:14 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:23:25 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:02 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has left #lisp 05:26:42 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has joined #lisp 05:26:43 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:29:41 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:51 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1FF0.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:30:54 benny` [n=benny@i577A1FF0.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:31:13 -!- benny` is now known as benny 05:33:54 Ogedei [n=user@e178211057.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 05:37:21 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ecda8930098ec53d] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:39:07 roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-155-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:47 s0ber [i=pie@118-160-171-119.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:08 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.244.251] has joined #lisp 05:41:20 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["A way a lone a last a loved a long the..."] 05:41:37 ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:11 -!- rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-41a099b76bbe037a] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:42:42 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-289db3d10b7d2d90] has joined #lisp 05:48:11 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:56:09 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.138.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:59:17 -!- luke [n=luke@ppp58C1.dsl.pacific.net.au] has quit [Client Quit] 05:59:36 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:49 luke [n=luke@ppp58C1.dsl.pacific.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:00:10 hey 06:00:15 *p_l* starts to think he might have some vague understanding of how CPS works, at least in web-framework/GUI kind of thingy 06:00:55 -!- nerdshark [n=dorkfish@74-131-32-72.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:01:29 hey luke 06:01:45 this is my first time on irc and stuff 06:01:56 I'm just learning lisp and have a question or two, is that alright? 06:03:46 luke: alright, as long as they are not REALLY stupid (but that requires usually lack of common sense, so go ahead) 06:04:31 well I've been reading practical common lisp, its very nice but I'm up to the chapter on variables and I just don't get it 06:04:50 I'm using clisp on ubuntu and for some reason I get errors when using (let (x 10)) for example 06:05:04 unless I'm not understanding how you define a variable 06:05:19 I'm fluent in most python and php if that helps, from a web developer background 06:05:29 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.127] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:06:06 -!- roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-155-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 06:06:48 luke: that's because it should be something like (let ((x 10)) (some code that uses x)) 06:07:13 x is defined only in scope of the code included in (let 06:07:43 clhs let 06:07:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm 06:08:28 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 06:08:30 so (defvar is for global, acessible in all while (let is just for a variable say inside a function 06:09:23 that's for lexical (iirc, don't ask me on terminology) variables - which can be optimized away etc - they are simply placeholders for some internal reference. If symbol that you're binding is declared "special" (which is what defvar/defparameter does by default), you can locally override it with let 06:09:47 Ok I think i'm getting it 06:09:52 thanks :) 06:10:00 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has quit [] 06:10:16 for Python/PHP/etc. style, you can simply try (setf symbol-name data), but obviously it's not recommended :) 06:10:34 yep 06:10:50 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 06:12:38 as for difference between lexical and special/dynamic variables, first one is just a placeholder, doesn't exist outside of compilation stage. Special variables are actually looked up in the current environment (so if you change it, the change gets propagated, you can also use them as globals etc) 06:13:39 luke_ [n=luke@ppp58C1.dsl.pacific.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:13:51 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has joined #lisp 06:14:53 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:15:46 ASau [n=user@host186-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 06:16:22 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:19:02 hello 06:23:55 -!- younder [n=jthing@212.251.244.165] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:24:08 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-82.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:24:43 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:35 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:32:57 hey kimua 06:33:00 kiuma* 06:33:53 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:34:32 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 06:35:05 -!- luke [n=luke@ppp58C1.dsl.pacific.net.au] has quit [Client Quit] 06:40:07 -!- konr [n=konrad@189.0.4.217] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:40:28 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:40:29 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:40:39 using bordeaux threads, is it possible to use condition-wait with with-lock-held? 06:41:35 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:41:38 daniel__ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:46:37 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:46:38 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 06:46:38 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 06:47:14 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.7.237] has joined #lisp 06:49:01 jao [n=jao@187.Red-83-50-68.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:51:44 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:51:44 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:54:29 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:54:55 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["I'll bring the fork if you bring the..."] 06:55:58 that is just slick. lisp is starting to grow on me. 06:57:35 roidrage [n=roidrage@office.synium.de] has joined #lisp 06:58:07 lisp sux 06:58:59 dem's fightin wordz 06:59:19 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 06:59:54 I kid. Lisp was a revelation to me. Except there's a problem with lisp in general, but I'm not sure what it is, and I can't figure it out. :( 06:59:56 I wiped my ~/.xchat2 to stop it from putting Quadrescence back on my ignore list every time I logged in, but it was probably a mistake. 07:00:36 :( 07:02:49 hefner: Why was I on ignore? 07:02:51 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:04:12 Quadrescence: where exactly on the topic line is your name? 07:04:47 jdz: The topic defines enough axioms to derive my name. 07:05:19 uh 07:05:21 Quadrescence: dunno, I have a bad habit of ignoring new nicks the first time they say something that bugs me 07:05:39 hefner: Well, it makes sense on IRC I guess. 07:06:20 It isn't a very good policy. I gave it up when the list hit 200. 07:06:23 i'd gladly see what is this "problem with lisp in general", but looks like i won't because you don't know what it is (and then, how do you know it is there if you don't know what it is?) 07:06:23 splittist pasted "ftd fixups" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83900 07:06:51 beach: see paste above for some quick thoughts from eyeballing the code 07:06:56 imo the problem with lisp in general is not enough libs and/or no good system for handling libs. 07:07:06 both of these issues are being addressed so I'm not concerned. 07:07:20 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:07:40 yeah, cpan vs asdf/cliki is kind of a letdown 07:08:01 that is in no way "lisp in general" 07:08:22 it's as general as I can think of. 07:08:57 jdz: I'm not entirely sure. It's just a feeling. And just to clarify, by "Lisp in general", I mean "the family of Lisp languages, including CL" 07:08:58 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-226-227.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:09:16 'just a feeling' that something is 'wrong in general'? wtf? 07:09:21 masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has joined #lisp 07:09:39 Ralith: Yeah, essentially. 07:09:41 i have a feeling that there is something wrong with the universe in general. but i don't know what it is. 07:09:46 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-6-208.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:09:46 maybe it's lisp in general? 07:10:08 Quadrescence: that's completely meaningless :P 07:10:21 hefner: he likes to troll in #concatenative too but I've met him in IRL and he's alright 07:10:23 Ralith: It's meaningless to everyone except me. 07:10:36 slava: Ha, I'm not trolling. :< 07:10:41 then why are you talking about it :P 07:10:42 Quadrescence: then why bring it up here? 07:10:49 *hefner* files under "slava approved" 07:11:08 I'd be really thrilled if any of the serious implementations cared about deployment (things like "may randomly not work depending on the address space layout" and "the 32-bit version doesn't work on 64-bit windows, and vice versa" don't inspire confidence even for silly toy projects) 07:11:31 jdz: Well, let me clarify: it may not totally be meaningless to those who have had a similar feeling and have sought the actual problem. 07:11:55 Quadrescence: except that those people would be in false agreement 07:12:08 (not to belittle the efforts of our glorious compiler hackers of course, who generally hack on much more interesting things) 07:12:09 jdz: Why? 07:12:30 because they don't know what "it" is 07:12:59 hefner: and ccl still seems to be the nicest one for cross-platform deployment of threaded apps :( 07:13:07 Quadrescence: if there is a mismatch between your unkown innermost self and some undefined property of the lisp family - why do you seek the fault in the latter? 07:13:12 hefner: I thought you weren't a big fan of 64-bit windows 07:13:37 hefner: but more seriously, 32-bit apps have all kinds of random problems on win64 because of the shitty emulation 07:14:15 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:14:38 splittist: Because I *think* the problem is disjoint from myself. Maybe it's even disjoint from lisp, too, and sort of what hefner said, it might be a problem with deployment, which of course is pretty lisp-independent. 07:14:43 slava: I think it's silly to target it explicitly, but things certainly ought to work on it. If, in typical lisper fashion, you're the only user of your software, I even thing it's a find idea to develop on it. 07:14:47 (64-bit windows, that it) 07:15:05 metawilm [n=willem@e179145000.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:15:12 the only fool-proof way to have stuff work on win64 is to build for win64, though 07:15:50 Hmm. All the world is a wizard-generated Visual C++ app, I guess. No use raging against Microsoft to fix their operating system. 07:15:54 and that's what people generally do, even outside of lisp. 07:16:22 you'd be better off spending the time making it obselete. 07:17:14 slava: I've been dying lately to hack on that game I was writing in Factor, but the idea of stepping back into the fold is terrifying. But there's no suitable CL implementation to rewrite it with that can deliver a useful windows binary. :) 07:17:45 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:18:09 factor looks pretty nice. I played with it a while ago. 07:18:21 it certainly puts a lot more emphasis into being deployable :< 07:18:24 hefner: clisp is too slow and SBCL/ECL are too alpha-quality on windows? 07:18:34 hefner: what about Clozure? 07:18:41 ooh, forgot clozure 07:18:43 aside from the x86/x64 binaries issue. 07:18:59 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 07:19:06 Ralith: ECL is pretty slow, too, iirc 07:19:07 hefner: time for a lisp that targets factor then :) 07:19:24 sykopomp: okay. 07:19:35 slava: that sounds exciting. 07:19:36 so what about clozure, then? 07:19:40 sykopomp: the tree shaker is pretty rudimentary 07:19:48 it could be better if we had support for weak pointers 07:20:13 slava: yeah, but you have that whole project setup thing, an actual IDE -as well- as emacs support, and a bunch of nice goodies included with the language. 07:20:42 ECL, from what I can tell, is so fantastically slow that I'd be hesitant to use it even if I rewrote half the code in C. Factor at least was fast enough to do all the graphics in, and getting faster still. SBCL has death kittens, and I assume CCL is about the same. 07:20:47 Adlai` [n=user@c-69-181-142-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:01 hefner: 'has death kittens?' 07:21:08 also, I thought clozure supported windows pretty well. 07:21:23 doesn't ECL compile to C? 07:21:41 does it just generate shitty C or something? 07:21:43 hefner: I haven't experienced instability with CCL, and it seems to have nicer support for windows than SBCL does. 07:21:52 if you make an association list with strings like '(("i'm" . "i am")("you're" . "you are")) does the assoc function not apply? or - how does one go about making an association list of strings 07:22:02 It generates reasonably clean C without thinking too hard. 07:22:04 *sykopomp* runs stuff on both SBCL and CCL, and even managed to distribute some binaries to people. 07:22:14 isismelting: assoc with test set to #'string=? 07:22:46 doesn't CCL have the same problem as SBCL of wanting to map some huge core at a fixed address, and dying if it can't? 07:22:54 isismelting: #'string-equal for case-insensitivity, or you can upcase/downcase all strings. 07:22:57 isismelting: yup, works. 07:23:08 (assoc "i'm" '(("i'm" . "i am")("you're" . "you are")) :test #'string=) 07:23:09 ("i'm" . "i am") 07:23:23 hefner: Maybe. I vaguely recall someone mentioning that it doesn't do that. 07:23:26 string-equal would probably be better. 07:23:29 slava: The output is very generic. Since a few months the maintainer has been working on getting type inference working, though 07:23:30 what doesn't do what? 07:23:48 thank you -- that's exactly what i needed. couldn't find the answer anywhere. thanks!! 07:23:55 hefner: did you at least see that factor's 'compiler warnings' are gone completely now? IIRC that was bugging you for a while 07:24:04 Ralith: see hefner on mapping a huge core at a fixed address. 07:24:13 prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:21 hefner: I have no idea. 07:24:33 I don't use CCL, I just heard that it's very portable. 07:24:53 sykopomp: its a tradeoff - mapping at a fixed address is less portable but much faster to load 07:24:59 tried to set up CCL at one point but it didn't have a standard build/install system I could see and I got distracted 07:25:17 mqt [n=tran@c-66-41-46-222.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:25:27 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-29-220.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:25:39 slava: it sounds like it's a bigger problem than just portability -- it sounds like it causes some serious instability :\ 07:25:53 Ralith: Uh, it's checkout, run a binary, issue (rebuild-ccl :full t) 07:26:38 tcr: yeah but there wasn't an obvious easy way to install it. 07:26:44 and I don't like running things out of ~ 07:27:01 though I'm actually doing that with sbcl via clbuild anyway 07:27:02 Ralith: Just symlink to the resulting binary from your ~/bin 07:27:07 see above 07:27:33 So move the checkout where ever you want? 07:27:46 yeah 07:27:57 "move it wherever you want" is not a standard install system :P 07:28:03 slava: oh, that's cool. I've been meaning to update my code. Curious if my float-vector vocabulary would benefit from the newer features (unboxed float arrays, I think) 07:28:09 mostly it's a "it didn't make it easy and I was too lazy to go beyond that" 07:28:16 still got the checkout lying around, may yet play with it 07:28:27 I think it's as simple as it can get 07:29:08 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 07:29:13 good morning 07:29:58 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:31:07 (and try FUEL, which sounds like an instant 2x productivity improvement) 07:32:11 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:32:42 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:33:42 FUEL was the emacs mode, right?... 07:34:04 hefner: CCL afaik doesn't have kittens of death, and the 32/64bit problem can be avoided with simple launcher and shipping of both 32bit and 64bit in one package 07:34:24 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has left #lisp 07:34:50 hefner: funnily enough, x64 support is claimed to be much more stable than 32bit 07:34:52 sykopomp: yeah. the fancy slime-style one. 07:35:02 yum. 07:35:05 p_l: the x64 port came first 07:35:24 p_l: IIRC the x86 port took a bit longer because of issues with the small register file 07:35:28 slava: I know, but there are also important ABI differences, afaik 07:35:36 I need to find something to code in factor, so I actually stick to learning it, as opposed to just typing a couple of lines into its interpreter and giggling at how neat the stack is. 07:36:12 99% of the blog posts about Forth that I've seen are long the lines of 'Forth is neat, here's a program, : sq dup * ;' 07:36:17 heh 07:36:31 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-40-86.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 07:36:53 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-289db3d10b7d2d90] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:36:59 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-3d7fa26cb99e571c] has joined #lisp 07:37:08 -!- sunwukong [n=vukung@ortros.den.rcast.u-tokyo.ac.jp] has quit ["bye"] 07:37:55 jedahu [n=jdh@ip-118-90-85-154.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:38:14 slava: pushing and popping things into the stack is strangely fun. I can't explain it. 07:38:28 there's a "wheee" element to it, of sorts. 07:38:49 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:42:10 *hefner* finds the combinators more fun. *hates* debugging stack screwups. 07:42:18 :) 07:43:01 there was one guy who was looking at a concatenative language based on tuples, not stacks. so you still have the cleave/spread combinators, but he disappeared 07:43:02 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@70.88.151.157] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:43:04 hefner: combinators? 07:43:09 s/looking at/designing/ 07:45:41 sykopomp: http://docs.factorcode.org/content/article-combinators.html 07:46:08 -!- luke_ [n=luke@ppp58C1.dsl.pacific.net.au] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:46:15 tx 07:46:45 is this the concatenative version of a higher-order function?... 07:49:12 *sykopomp* assumes so 07:49:53 I always thought of a combinator as just a certain kind of higher-order function 07:55:14 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 07:57:07 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:58:38 jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 07:58:40 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:00:59 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:02:09 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has joined #lisp 08:09:01 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [] 08:09:19 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:09:23 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 08:11:43 -!- jao [n=jao@187.Red-83-50-68.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:12:02 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:14:47 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 08:15:58 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:17:15 splittist annotated #83900 "sb-posix" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83900#1 08:17:28 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 08:19:17 splittist: considered using osicat? 08:20:03 -!- masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:31:58 hefner: seems more lispy, true. I was trying to make FTD look as much like Dired as possible, and dired seems to want to look like ls output. 08:32:01 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:32:03 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 08:32:40 hefner: but that doesn't actually seem a useful ambition. Must try osicat on windows at some point. 08:32:56 FTD? 08:33:04 is that a mcclim thing? 08:35:10 it's an excellent name 08:35:16 flexi-trivial-dired if I remember correctly 08:35:24 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:35:39 http://common-lisp.net/~dlichteblau/inofficial/ftd/ has tab layout changes that might or might not still work with current McCLIM 08:37:53 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:37:54 Also, does iolib solve the ffi portability questions? (and if not, why not?) 08:42:12 lichtblau: thanks. 08:42:23 beach: see lichtblau's message above. 08:42:59 Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:43:14 lichtblau: is iolib's git web browsable? The manual doesn't seem to say anything about the pathname stuff. 08:45:30 grrr, pathnames. 08:45:43 what's wrong with osicat? it has loads of stuff for dealing with these things 08:46:34 it's even almost sane. 08:46:56 probably nothing is wrong with osicat -- I'm just trying to understand what library to look at, and where the distinction between iolib and osicat lies. 08:46:58 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:47:09 *hefner* isn't clear on that either 08:47:21 mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 08:48:04 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:48:05 IIUC, iolib tries to supersede pathnames by providing its FILE-PATH abstraction instead. But osicat has the interesting FFI definitions. Perhaps Dired needs both. 08:48:45 fe[nl]ix wrote iolib but recommended osicat to me as a replacement for the syscall wrappers i already have 08:49:34 i think that osicat is generally better thought out (luis wrote it) and newer -- building on the experience with iolib 08:49:57 though nowadays iolib has improved a lot 08:51:17 jamief [n=jamie@tansur.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:51:24 ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:45 splittist annotated #83900 "osicat too" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83900#2 08:55:02 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:59:39 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-3d7fa26cb99e571c] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:59:41 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-b0e6bec631d01e2a] has joined #lisp 08:59:52 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 09:00:19 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest48987 09:00:36 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:01:02 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:01:35 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-b0e6bec631d01e2a] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:02:26 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 09:03:59 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-411e70b9b4d9f180] has joined #lisp 09:08:40 borism [n=boris@195-50-197-191-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 09:08:53 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 09:09:52 -!- jedahu [n=jdh@ip-118-90-85-154.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:13:18 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:13:44 *lichtblau* revives Hemlock Dired by switching it from UNIX to SB-UNIX 09:16:02 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:16:44 Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:19:21 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:21:13 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-226-227.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:21:52 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-226-227.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:00 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-226-227.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:24:18 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-226-227.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:28:12 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 09:30:03 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-224-43.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:18 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 09:37:45 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:18 *splittist* remembers :overwrite is not the same as :supersede 09:42:24 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 09:43:54 ahaas_ [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:45:56 bdowning_ [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:52 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 09:49:32 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 09:51:23 -!- asksol [n=ask@47.247.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:54:07 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:54:43 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:56:20 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483BD9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:46 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:57:20 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:58:43 *jthing* figured out what dup2 is good for 10:00:59 All this process interconnect stuff if booring, but usefull 10:01:45 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:01:54 -!- bdowning_ is now known as bdowning 10:02:07 brandelune [n=suzume@pl834.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:04:02 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 10:04:12 http://www.lichteblau.com/tmp/hemlock-dired.png 10:06:36 -!- addled [n=adl@235.Red-83-37-236.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:06:36 -!- prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:06:55 prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 10:08:34 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 10:09:51 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:13:46 hey, neat. 10:14:00 *hefner* would play the screenshot game, but isn't hacking lisp today 10:14:58 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 10:15:08 10:15:09 9 echo "This will create a new database by the name $BIOMINE_DB." >&2 10:15:09 10 echo >&2 10:15:09 11 echo "Press enter to continue or Ctrl-C to abort!" >&2 10:15:17 oooh 10:15:20 uh 10:15:20 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit [] 10:15:35 well, you can press Ctrl-C now 10:15:59 what kind of basic is that? 10:16:22 *guaqua* wonders if X's middle-button paste can be disabled on certain class windows 10:16:27 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:16:40 it's sh, just a trac diff copy 10:17:39 guaqua: afaik you can ignore pastesm but I don't remember how :-) 10:18:06 luke [n=irchon@ppp58C1.dsl.pacific.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:18:12 i'd be happy with shift-inserting in terminals 10:18:31 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@78.113.15.173] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:19:17 lichtblau: tasty transparency! 10:19:48 -!- Adlai` [n=user@c-69-181-142-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:20:17 Pepe_ [n=ppjet@78.113.15.173] has joined #lisp 10:20:20 -!- luke [n=irchon@ppp58C1.dsl.pacific.net.au] has quit [Client Quit] 10:21:29 luke [n=irchon@ppp58C1.dsl.pacific.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:22:10 what's with the font? my Qt does that too. What the hell is the point of using a fancy toolkit when it uses nasty X11 fonts? 10:22:23 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [] 10:23:22 the ugly font in the menus (ugly because I probably misconfigured something fontconfig-related in my VM) or the beautiful 'Fixed [Sony]' I chose for the buffers? 10:23:32 nha [n=prefect@p3E9E7B33.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:54 I dig the 'Fixed [Sony]' 10:24:32 -!- luke [n=irchon@ppp58C1.dsl.pacific.net.au] has quit [Client Quit] 10:24:43 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:30:35 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 10:32:35 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-127.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:45:06 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 10:49:17 notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@121.243.167.99] has joined #lisp 10:51:19 http://johan.kiviniemi.name/blag/ubuntu-fonts/ has the answer 10:51:36 Adlai` [n=user@c-69-181-142-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:52:42 the particular problem he is describing is probably unrelated to mine, but the "99-override-everything-ftw.conf" approach works anyway 10:55:23 fiveop [n=fiveop@e179125184.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:58:36 -!- gko [n=Keca@211.21.137.140] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:00:04 jsoft [n=user@ip-118-90-123-121.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:00:16 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:00:30 -!- jsoft [n=user@ip-118-90-123-121.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:00:52 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 11:01:29 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-224-43.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:01:31 X11 has pretty fonts too.. override them if you don't like them. 11:01:44 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-224-43.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:01:54 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 11:03:01 I have a 5 volume series on X11 (old), but volume 3 "X Windows system users guide" describes this and more 11:03:03 silenius: Is "Silenius" a real name or just an irc nick? 11:04:10 meingb: it's a nick 11:04:51 silenius: I was asking b/c two real names came to mind, "Silén" and "Sibelius" 11:04:53 Silenus was a companion and tutor to the wine god Dionysus. 11:05:42 jthing: That is "Silenus" w/o the \#i? 11:05:57 oops 11:07:38 meingbg: jthing's track is the right one, it stems from silenus, though adapted after reading dan simmons' "hyperion" 11:07:43 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:07:44 make that Silenius was.. 11:08:14 .oO(and now add some parenthesis to make this on topic...) 11:09:15 lol 11:10:11 Another sciFi fan.. 11:10:26 shoot him! 11:11:53 jthing: oh, i just love who the author transposes catholic inquisition into future to retell the story =) 11:12:04 ((Parens) ((should (be used)) more) in (natural languages)). (That way), ((one step) ((would (be taken)) towards (real-world non-ambiguity.))) 11:12:49 sorry, no pronouns. rewrite that using let* 11:12:53 () 11:14:20 Still not on topic, but is there a magic emacs command for 'highlight the chars in this buffer that have you suggesting some exotic encoding for saving instead of ASCII as God intended'? 11:15:08 kpreid [n=kpreid@70.88.151.157] has joined #lisp 11:15:10 jthing: the nice ones with metal binder X11 manuals? 11:15:47 p_I: No the Orelly paperback books 11:16:28 ((The (second2 step1)) ((would2 be1) (((to tag5) (every2 word1)) (with7 (an integer3)) ((corresponding2 to) (the (intended1 meaning3)))), ((according3 to) (a (standardized4 dictionary3))))). 11:16:49 jthing: but are the pages bound with metal-ring-thingy? :D 11:17:02 Steps three through twenty-seven would be to get people to use it. 11:17:57 P_I: No, the ISBN is is 0-937175-14-5 11:18:14 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:19:14 splittist: Use binary search. Paste half of the text into a new buffer and see if you get that encoding suggestion... 11:19:17 :-) 11:19:23 http://www.bookfinder.com/dir/i/X_Window_System_Users_Guide/0937175145/ 11:20:43 splittlist: maybe start from that one http://www.gnufans.net/~deego/emacspub/lisp-mine/ascii-display/dev/ascii-display.el 11:21:17 splittist* 11:21:25 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 11:21:51 manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has joined #lisp 11:22:38 Anyhow it sells fo 5 $ and since the comand line interface hasn't changed much it is a bargain.. 11:23:29 apperently 11:23:36 jthing: I thing I had skimmed it at uni library. Nicely done book 11:23:56 -!- ASau is now known as ` 11:24:26 -!- ` is now known as Guest49977 11:24:34 -!- Guest49977 is now known as ASau 11:26:06 lispm [n=joswig@g224120149.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:27:18 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-197-191-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:27:37 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-411e70b9b4d9f180] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:27:47 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-4b6a308192280f19] has joined #lisp 11:29:01 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:30:29 -!- ASau is now known as \ 11:30:38 -!- \ is now known as ASau 11:30:43 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 11:31:05 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:35:10 silenius: thanks. 11:39:53 odd how simular the old Xt system is to Gnome, I understood it after a few hours 11:40:25 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 11:41:05 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has quit ["leaving"] 11:41:58 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 11:44:34 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-96-255-111-135.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:45:52 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:46:48 -!- roidrage [n=roidrage@office.synium.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:47:57 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:49:33 i'm again evaluating log5, it just seems right to use rather than reinvent the wheel 11:50:21 i'm still wrapping my head around libs, i've done an asdf:load-op, should i use-package? when i do i get naming conflicts... 11:51:02 Demosthenex: that'd be the reverse. You'd not use-package when you get naming conflicts. 11:51:12 Avoiding use-package should let you live without name conflicts. 11:53:10 never use use package except for testing in the repl 11:53:37 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-79-16.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:53:49 either use in the package declaration or (usually better) explicitly name the package 11:54:07 that adds all symbols from the lib to the current? 11:54:17 FSVO "adds", yes. 11:54:28 And its not from a "lib", it's from a _package_. 11:54:30 no prefixes? log5:log-for instead of log-for? 11:55:09 The fact of having inherited the symbols from the other package with use-package doesn't prevent the use of the symbol qualification. So you can still write log5:log-for. 11:55:27 But of course, the point of use-package would be to avoid having to do so in an interactive session. 11:56:07 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:57:14 roidrage [n=roidrage@office.synium.de] has joined #lisp 11:57:21 There are many packages out there.. use-package'ing all of the get's ... interesting.. 11:57:52 a world of :shaddow and doubth 11:58:13 -!- prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:58:27 prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:33 ha, thats ok, i copied it from an example... 11:58:34 jthing: nice! "A world of shadow and doubt!" :-) 11:59:13 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:02:14 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:02:39 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 12:02:44 -!- notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@121.243.167.99] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:03:27 ivan-kanis [n=user@if02t2-89-83-137-164.d4.club-internet.fr] has joined #lisp 12:03:59 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:27 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:06:10 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:11:47 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:11:50 -!- chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:12:43 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@70.88.151.157] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:13:47 There are a few exceptions where they replace standard ANSI CL feature. I like iterate and (meta-bang-) bind. 12:14:21 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has joined #lisp 12:17:35 The functional buffs might like serialize. 12:19:10 However (sb-posix:pipe) never (use :sb-posix) (pipe) 12:22:34 borism [n=boris@195-50-205-34-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 12:22:35 (open and close are ambigous etc. etc.) 12:27:32 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:28:55 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:28:56 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:29:38 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 12:31:25 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 12:31:54 blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has joined #lisp 12:39:09 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:39:23 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 12:39:32 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:41:58 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:42:04 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:44:54 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-183-234.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:47:17 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-4b6a308192280f19] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:48:19 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 12:49:28 Is it possible to define a function and a macro with the same symbol? 12:49:39 meingbg: no. 12:50:05 but #'or returns a "closure"? 12:50:50 <_3b> FUNCTION returns something unspecified when used on a macro 12:50:56 Not quite true 12:51:11 It is specified to cause an error, but implementations are allowed not to signal it. 12:51:23 » An implementation may choose not to signal this error for performance reasons, but implementations are forbidden from defining the failure to signal an error as a useful behavior. 12:51:36 the spec that mandates implementation marketing materials :) 12:51:56 jmbr [n=jmbr@29.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 12:53:26 which means there is no way I can have a symbol that can both be used with apply and in a (symbol arg) form where arg should not be evaluated? 12:53:56 segv [n=mb@p4FC1CB02.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:02 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [] 12:54:09 -!- PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit ["leaving"] 12:54:23 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:54:25 meingbg: i think that's correct. 12:54:34 meingbg: what do you actually want to do? 12:55:38 <_3b> well, you could inside a macrolet 12:56:01 _3b: that's true. 12:56:48 Kickaha [n=jadawin@bl5-16-89.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 12:57:17 Or you could back up and say that you want the -effect- of having done so, and hack the compiler. 12:57:18 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 12:57:48 I think that being in the same namespace as functions is the _point_ of macros 12:58:18 -!- nha [n=prefect@p3E9E7B33.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:58:33 What I actually want to do is optimizing. I have a function "concat" that takes any number of arguments and returns a string with all of them printed out. I want to be able to use this function with apply, but I also want an automatic optimization when all of the arguments, or several in a row, are constants. The only way I know how to do that is with a macro - however, I don't want two separate symbols since they're doing the exact 12:58:33 same thing. 12:58:34 Umm... But then you might run into the chance of some of the APPLYed cases being transformed the same way as the normal function application versions. 12:58:35 <_3b> being able to specify what FUNCTION returns for a macro could still be useful, even if they share a namespace 12:58:55 meingbg: Umm... That is -exactly- what compiler-macros are for. 12:59:07 hah, I knew it. 12:59:35 nyef: Ok, I guess I should learn about compiler-macros, then. Are they part of standard CL? 12:59:40 Yes. 12:59:48 ok, great. 13:00:08 But conforming implementations aren't required to actually expand them. 13:00:13 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-146-41.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:00:19 but if they don't, it's their problem 13:00:24 Exactly. 13:00:26 nyef: That's understandable. 13:00:47 They're supposed to be used for semantic-preserving transformations on source forms. 13:01:14 aka optimisations :) 13:01:23 Which also means, that the result is undefined if a compiler-macro expands into a form that carries out an action dissimilar to the original form. 13:01:25 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 13:01:35 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 13:01:37 Optimizations are a subset of semantic-preserving transformations, yes. 13:02:01 meingbg: yes, you're supposed to make sure they're equivalent 13:02:01 nyef: Other uses? 13:02:28 nyef: in a way, you could see, say, attaching debug info as a kind of optimisation 13:02:39 -a couple of commas 13:02:49 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:02:49 meingbg: Pessimizations, of course! 13:02:50 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:03:14 mathrick: Adding debug info isn't semantics-preserving with respect to the debugger. :-P 13:03:17 nyef: but the real question is, do they form an exhaustive partition? 13:03:43 nyef: no, but you could say the same about (declare (optimize ...)) 13:04:00 I guess semantic-preserving transformations could be the very core of some applications... math? 13:04:21 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:04:21 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Client Quit] 13:04:28 Or wait, equivalent doesn't mean preserved semantics, I guess... 13:05:25 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:05:28 nyef: Although not as straight-forwared as it would be in a purely functional language, I guess it would be possible to auto-detect some pessimizations? 13:06:17 anyway, what do you people use for date-time calculations? 13:06:35 *nyef* tries not to do date-time calculations. 13:06:39 I'm asking because LOCAL-TIME (the implementation) is sadly kinda rubbish 13:06:53 Anyway, I'm heading AFK for a bit. 13:06:58 nyef: I have an app that's a calendar on steroids at its heart, so I kinda have to :) 13:07:10 kpreid [n=kpreid@70.88.151.157] has joined #lisp 13:08:43 I'm proud to say that I have found use for a non-determining, recursive macro. 13:08:56 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:12:21 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:14:12 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 13:14:22 mathrick: which one? 13:14:40 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:02 Numlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 13:15:15 -!- Numlock is now known as PissedNumlock 13:15:19 I think I've heard of three. dlowe (and attilla?), onshored, and ystok-local-time 13:15:53 luis: the one available on cliki 13:15:56 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:16:03 mscala [n=user@75.110.164.231] has joined #lisp 13:16:04 which is dlowe's 13:16:06 why is it rubgbish? 13:16:09 willb1 [n=wibenton@69.129.204.3] has joined #lisp 13:16:12 *rubbish 13:16:48 luis: it removed the "local" part of local-time, thus completely breaking the premise and also any and all kinds of operations you could do on dates 13:16:57 example coming 13:17:04 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 13:17:51 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@70.88.151.157] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:18:22 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:18:43 dlowe: hi, I was just bitching at local-time 13:19:08 mathrick: the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about 13:19:16 mathrick: what's the issue? 13:19:19 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 13:19:20 dlowe: why did you throw away timezones from the timestamps? It kind of invalidates it being "local" and breaks everything horribly 13:19:26 sec, I was just assembling examples 13:19:31 kpreid [n=kpreid@70.88.151.157] has joined #lisp 13:20:38 mathrick: because a timestamp is a representation of a point in time, which isn't dependent on timezones. 13:21:08 dlowe: it totally is 13:21:21 you can't manipulate them sensibly without timezones 13:21:28 *mathrick* points at Naggum's paper 13:23:19 It depends on the manipulation. In the (increasingly poorly named) local-time library, those manipulations which depend on a timezone will take a timezone parameter 13:24:05 There are overlapping insanities here, and I picked the one that was unambiguous 13:25:44 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-194.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:45 the library probably needs a name change at this point. It's diverged a long way from Naggum's paper 13:26:03 mathrick pasted "LOCAL-TIME fun" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83915 13:26:19 doesn't even use the decoding optimization that was nearly the whole point 13:26:30 dlowe, luis: ^ 13:26:47 dlowe: but it's impossible to do any meaningful calculations with it 13:26:58 you didn't specify a timezone, so it guessed. 13:27:20 Xach: where can I see those other implementations 13:27:30 dlowe: uhh, "the same" 13:27:34 my timezone doesn't change 13:27:50 both points in time are in the same, ie. default, timezone 13:27:52 no daylight savings time? I'm jealous. 13:28:11 dlowe: that's subtimezone, and you introduce this concept in your own API 13:28:18 mathrick: your google is as good as mine 13:28:42 Xach: well, mine never showed any other hits, but lemme try 13:28:49 dlowe: if I wanted to calculate the DST myself, I wouldn't use a library 13:29:17 the point is, LOCAL-TIME didn't adjust it by one month. It adjusted it by 30 * 24 hours, which is wrong 13:29:35 dlowe: taking offset isn't unambiguous, it's useless 13:29:49 because I can't know the offset until I have the resulting timestamp 13:30:27 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:36 heh. how do you suggest the offset be found then? I've looked at a lot of time library implementations, and they all just take a reasonable stab 13:31:39 I believe the heuristic right now is the one in glibc, but I'm not sure. attila has worked on it more recently than I have 13:31:45 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:56 mathrick: "one month" is also ambiguous. what's "one month" after Jan. 31 ? 13:32:52 dlowe: if the :offset changes between the endpoints, you need to adjust the resulting thing so that the logical components that weren't explicitly adjusted remain the same 13:33:18 mathrick: I totally agree. 13:33:28 fe[nl]ix: I dunno. But I can tell you what it means for 15. october and it can't change the hour randomly 13:33:58 dlowe: that's why a timestamp needs to have a timezone to be interpreted in, unless it's explicitly overridden 13:34:07 a subtimezone, you mean? 13:34:15 no, timezone 13:34:15 *meingbg* is happy to have learned about compiler macros 13:34:31 dlowe: subtimezones change with time 13:34:32 mathrick: that wouldn't help. There's already *default-timezone* 13:34:45 dlowe: but it's not interpreted correctly 13:34:56 mathrick: you're talking about two different issues 13:35:06 I'm not even sure how many places need fixing, because the whole thing rests on taking :offset 13:35:12 which is absolutely and utterly useless 13:35:39 if I could give :offset ahead of time, I wouldn't need the whole baroque time-calculating machinery 13:36:13 If I could calculate which subtimezone you meant without direction, I wouldn't have an optional offset parameter 13:36:33 since I can't, there's a default heuristic. What more do you want? 13:36:51 (besides the adjust-timestamp function to work properly) 13:37:07 dlowe: a heuristic that doesn't break every time I use any function from local-time 13:37:25 ENCODE-TIMESTAMP gets it wrong. ADJUST-TIMESTAMP does too 13:37:35 what else is there in the library? 13:38:14 dlowe: in the ADJUST-TIMESTAMP there is a direction. "Make it meaningful so that what doesn't chage stays put" 13:38:49 granted, I dunno what to do with (adjust-timestamp *last-of-januar* (offset :month 1)) 13:39:05 How does encode-timestamp get it wrong? (encode-timestamp 1 2 3 4 5 6 2009) => @2009-06-05T04:03:02.000000-04:00 13:39:13 (encode-timestamp 1 2 3 4 5 1 2009) => @2009-01-05T03:03:02.000000-05:00 13:39:25 KABINETT-TEST> (encode-timestamp 0 0 0 0 26 11 2009) 13:39:25 @2009-11-25T23:00:00.000000+01:00 13:39:42 joswig [n=joswig@f054052006.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:39:54 I told it I wanted 26th of November, I got 25th 13:40:01 if that's not wrong, I dunno what is 13:40:12 what's *default-timezone* set to? 13:40:29 # 13:41:16 (encode-timestamp 1 2 3 4 5 1 2009) => @2009-01-05T03:03:02.000000-05:00 <-- it does that here too 13:41:21 you asked for 4 o'clock 13:41:30 it gave you 3 o'clock 13:42:00 ok, that's a different kind of brokenness than not having a timezone embedded in the timestamp 13:42:05 off-by-one error? 13:42:38 sigh. I don't know. I'm not even the primary developer of this thing anymore. Just the one responsible for it. 13:42:54 so attila took over? 13:43:11 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Success] 13:43:15 sorry to barge in but can't that be caused by the dailight savings stuff? 13:43:17 Yeah, he's the primary user 13:43:28 oh, wait. 13:43:30 I wonder how they use it, since so far I hadn't been able to find a single obvious use which didn't break 13:43:47 dlowe: I don't mean to bitch at you, but the whole :offset business is really broken 13:44:17 It's encoding the timestamp with the offset of the current time. That's ugly. 13:44:24 yes 13:44:31 dlowe: you have a patch on the mailing list 13:44:39 which you rejected for reasons I don't understand 13:45:22 http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/local-time-devel/2009-May/000143.html 13:46:03 Kickaha: it *is* caused by DST, we know that 13:46:42 I say we just get rid of DST. 13:46:53 DST was a bad idea in the first place. 13:46:55 *Xach* seconds 13:47:03 we'd still have to deal with DST for managing past records 13:47:05 -!- lispm [n=joswig@g224120149.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:47:34 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.22] has joined #lisp 13:47:49 Life would be so much easier if everybody could speak English, Lisp, UTC and ISO. 13:47:51 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 13:47:51 I say we just get rid of the past. 13:48:01 mathrick: that was more of an implementation critique and a point that the author said his patch wasn't guessing when it clearly was. 13:48:21 Make a clean break. Today is Day 0 of the New Normalized Era. 13:48:30 Xach: sounds doubleplusgood 13:48:33 Xach: We never learn from it anyway! 13:48:36 *luis* fondly remembers a DST experiment (?) in the early 90s in Portugal. It was daylight until 10 or 11pm. A lot of football was played that spring/summer. 13:48:58 luis: probably the same in northern norway.. 13:49:17 too cold to play football outdoors there 13:49:34 why? 13:49:37 Xach: Let's have 100'000 seconds in a day 13:49:48 konr [n=konrad@189.98.67.226] has joined #lisp 13:49:50 in 10 hours. 13:49:55 meingbg: you mean 100,000 seconds. 13:50:04 meingbg: While we're doing it, we might as well drop base-10. 13:50:05 because , is the standard 13:50:06 meingbg: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_time 13:50:08 dlowe: right. 13:50:14 dlowe: depends on the locale :-P 13:50:25 yay, convert everything to base-12 13:50:27 no, 100,000 will be standard going forward in the New Normalized Era. 13:50:40 Not base 16? :p 13:50:44 Tell me more about this New Normalized Era 13:50:49 and we shall write dates as "Year-Day-Month" 13:51:03 dlowe: base-12 has more distinct factors 13:51:06 dlowe: I'm with serichsen, base-12. 13:51:13 I say we just outlaw the number 3. 13:51:20 Xach: did you mean Year-Month-Day ? 13:51:21 1,000,000,000 will be one milliard. 13:51:24 kuwabara1: no. 13:51:27 dlowe: he said "you do not need to guess", which means the caller 13:51:28 sigh, people who use year/day/month should be shot. 13:51:42 I'm with luis 13:51:44 luis: please, i don't want to have to shoot anyone on day 0 of the new new era! 13:51:44 Xach: What is the point of the "Year-Day-Month" ordering ? 13:51:46 the function clearly needs to, because the symbolic representation isn't unambiguous 13:51:47 I provide ammo 13:51:54 We need no specific base, not 10, not 12. We use prime base. 13:52:11 kuwabara1: it's the worst possible. :) 13:52:15 luis: i agree, slashes are completely inappropriate. that's why i used dashes. 13:52:40 Xach: Yeah, let's use year-month-day and have 10 months in a year, and 10 days in a month. And get rid of the weeks. 13:52:43 Xach: why put day between year and month? 13:52:55 and all computer data (including code) shall be in xml format 13:53:01 serichsen: æsthetics 13:53:03 Aren't all of the people who use year-day-month Americans? 13:53:04 for maximum standardization 13:53:05 *serichsen* shoots dlowe 13:53:15 serichsen: because it makes year-month-day ambiguous. 13:53:37 dlowe: If so, let's redefine xml as a Lisp DSL. 13:53:38 Chinese format is infinitely superior. 13:53:38 does somebody actually use y-d-m? I thought m-d-y was the only stupid one 13:53:39 only first half of the month 13:53:52 meingbg: So, you're proposing getting rid of the diurnal day? Or are we now base-(sqrt 365.24)? 13:53:56 jsnell: I hope not. :-) 13:54:21 ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:57 jsnell: I think it was chosen for being the only thing worse than m-d-y. 13:55:13 jsnell: And only worse because it's a convention no one has. 13:55:17 mathrick: anyway. attilla doesn't care because I think he's redefined %get-default-offset in his own projects. I don't care because the project I was doing it for died. So I'll bow to the wishes of the people with a dog in the fight 13:55:19 sellout: As I said, 10 months in a year and 10 days in a month. 13:55:21 what about m-y-d? 13:55:24 sure, I understand that Xach was making a joke. people on the channel are suggesting that it is being used 13:55:27 or d-y-m 13:56:06 it's never a joke when an american writes down a date. it's always riddle 13:56:10 mathrick: The patch still sucks. I'll just use the algorithm. 13:56:11 " sigh, people who use year/day/month should be shot", " Aren't all of the people who use year-day-month Americans?" 13:56:21 sellout: Don't care about where the sun happens to be, it doesn't even move regularly as far as we can know before-hand. 13:56:29 c|mell [n=cmell@p9035-ipngn101marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:56:30 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl834.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 13:56:47 brandelune [n=suzume@pl834.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:56:51 Well, I have nothing against shooting Americans. 13:57:21 dlowe: OK, knowing it ain't gonna work for me is a useful piece of info too 13:57:23 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl834.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 13:57:28 brandelune [n=suzume@pl834.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:57:47 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl834.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 13:57:48 dlowe: so are you saying you aren't able to maintain the library properly and I'm supposed to take care of myself? 13:57:52 brandelune [n=suzume@pl834.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:57:52 but if nobody uses that format, we're not getting to shoot anybody! :-( 13:57:57 mathrick: shrug. I meant I'll push a patch out in a few minutes 13:58:02 I demand a new dictator 13:58:33 Let's use prime base. In a given number, the right-most digit will be in base 2, the next one in base 3, then 5, 7, and so on. 13:59:04 minion: chant! 13:59:04 MORE KILLINGS 13:59:36 day 0 is a holiday, and there's a moratorium on summary executions. 13:59:44 please, save it for day 1. 14:00:01 Looks like the AI/Robot revolution is progressing faster than I anticipated. 14:00:15 Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:30 Xach: is it worth noting down that day 0 is July 21st 2009 or should we just ignore that? 14:00:35 I suggest that every day with two or less prime factors should be a holiday. 14:00:48 HG` [n=wells@xdslex120.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:00:54 luis: (eq 0 0) 14:01:02 dlowe: that still leaves the problem with ADJUST-TIMESTAMP 14:01:15 Just make day zero the oldest human's birth date. 14:01:27 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl834.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 14:01:39 meingbg: => unspecified 14:01:57 dlowe: that's why I'm asking about the long term, because it needs a systematic review 14:02:21 stassats`: ouch, that's true. 14:02:50 EQL to the rescue 14:03:25 -!- Ogedei [n=user@e178211057.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:03:40 Gah! 14:03:41 Fare, memo from rudybot: eli told me to tell you: ports are "parameters", which is the more organized versions of special variables -- so: (parameterize ([current-output-port ...something...]) ...some-code...) 14:04:00 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:04:07 heh, there is a chain of messengers :) 14:04:14 hahaa 14:04:20 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 14:04:22 envi_home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 14:04:38 where can I get help about CCL? I'm getting a weird error while loading cl+ssl -- where #$O_NONBLOCK is not eagerly-enough loaded, it seems. 14:04:53 mailing list, #ccl 14:05:13 -!- envi_home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Client Quit] 14:05:35 Fare: #ccl ? 14:05:49 Ron Garrett complained about that regarding ccl and cl+ssl, but I don't remember if someone answered him. 14:05:55 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.93.32] has joined #lisp 14:06:44 yet at ITA, we seem to be using cl+ssl w/o problem 14:06:57 -!- Kickaha [n=jadawin@bl5-16-89.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:07:05 Hmm, mailing lists, I keep forgetting to subscribe to several. 14:07:10 *Adlai* bows down to Fare. 14:07:22 Fare: It could be a difference between ITA's branch and trunk. 14:07:47 clhs does not state wheather #\A and #\a are eql, only that they are not equal? 14:08:07 Adlai: The last thing we need is for Fare to have any _more_ of a god complex. 14:08:17 quite possibly -- I seem to be using a different version from ITA 14:08:31 meingbg: it is specified that (implies (not (equal x y)) (not (eql x y))) 14:08:38 sellout: I'm not satisfied with being god. I want to be meta-god. 14:08:43 *Fare* should turn mormon 14:08:56 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:09:01 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 14:09:15 matimago: ok. 14:09:59 is a god complex something with a god as central atom, or with gods as ligands? 14:10:02 Ogedei [n=user@e178211057.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:11:30 A god complex is where you house your god, providing it has multiple rooms. 14:11:51 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Client Quit] 14:11:53 We house a number of gods in Fare. The rent is cheap. 14:11:56 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 14:12:03 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:42 Zhivago: the god has multiple rooms? 14:12:48 poor God; he's a ruminant! 14:12:49 what about a god quaternion? 14:13:35 rsynnott: Well, it wouldn't be a complex otherwise. 14:14:43 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 14:16:48 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:17:20 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-15-28.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 14:18:00 mathrick: ok, it's going to take longer than a few minutes. sorry. 14:20:33 Kickaha [n=jadawin@bl5-16-89.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:20:36 sellout: haha... I guess I suffer from Lisp-newbie-worships-all-real-Lisp-hackers-complex 14:20:45 s/from/from a/ 14:21:23 Adlai: read some of Fare's code first 14:21:33 heh 14:21:43 Xach: what's wrong with my code? 14:22:02 (OK, I have plenty of unfinished code out there, but the thing I advertise as running isn't that bad) 14:22:11 Fare: I think it should be a prerequisite to worship, that's all. So take it as "read first, THEN worship", not "read, then stop worshipping" 14:22:23 oh, ok 14:22:31 dlowe: 'tis okay 14:22:46 Start by reading, continue by worshipping, continue by self-termination. 14:22:54 Worship the code, not the coder? 14:23:02 worship me. 14:23:08 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:23:39 Let's not forget who the dictator is. 14:23:42 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:24:08 -!- danlei` [n=user@pD9E2C2BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Ein guter Abgang ziert die Übung."] 14:24:14 finally 14:24:26 danlei [n=user@pD9E2C2BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:19 -!- konr [n=konrad@189.98.67.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:25:32 Lisp is dead, long live lisp. 14:25:43 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has joined #lisp 14:25:44 nerdshark [n=dorkfish@74-131-32-72.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 14:26:32 stuart71 [n=user@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:47 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.93.32] has quit [Client Quit] 14:32:50 hi lisp 14:33:03 -!- Ogedei [n=user@e178211057.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:33:06 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:33:53 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:17 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 14:36:59 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:39:52 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@70.88.151.157] has quit [] 14:41:29 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:42:00 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has joined #lisp 14:42:11 metawilm_ [n=willem@85.179.148.196] has joined #lisp 14:43:58 jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 14:44:30 metawilm__ [n=willem@e179146190.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:46:00 huh, did something happen to SB-SPROF? 14:46:25 mathrick: yes. 14:46:35 (require :sb-sprof) fails here 14:46:58 Xach: where did it go? 14:47:03 Sounds like you have an incomplete installation. It's still part of SBCL. 14:47:21 odd 14:47:25 I know I had it before 14:48:20 -!- metawilm_ [n=willem@85.179.148.196] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:49:03 konr [n=konrad@189.96.211.64] has joined #lisp 14:49:49 Actually, you need to buy the SBCL Developer Toolkit to get sb-sprof (as well as other great tools). PM me for pricing. 14:50:24 I think I broke it with the image I load 14:50:38 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 14:50:45 SBCL: helping the software industry since 2009 14:50:52 prg__ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:03 Xof: reference to kmp? 14:51:13 and juho's t-shirt 14:51:22 juho's t-shirt? 14:51:27 -!- prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:51:32 konr1 [n=konrad@189.98.85.94] has joined #lisp 14:51:41 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.247.208] has joined #lisp 14:51:41 hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 14:52:47 Fare: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=juho+snellman+t-shirt 14:53:38 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:54:00 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.93.32] has joined #lisp 14:54:17 and 30 seconds later I have 10 copies of that query in my referrer logs 14:54:35 awesome 14:54:46 never underestimate the power of THE INTERNET 14:54:53 sp. 14:55:51 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/6796d74c39cd4800 14:55:53 heh : 14:55:54 :) 14:56:15 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:56:22 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 14:57:31 "Premature profiling is the root of all evil.", hmm... 14:57:55 meta-meta-optimization(?) 14:58:59 Adamant [n=Adamant@66.213.192.210] has joined #lisp 14:59:11 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:59:45 -!- metawilm [n=willem@e179145000.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:59:49 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 14:59:55 just blindly profiling code that you don't understand and fixing the hotspots is not the path to enlightenment 15:00:31 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:26 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@69.129.204.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:04:37 so, okay, I did something wrong with dumping my image that prevents :sb-prof from being found. What do I need to save / call / whatever to prevent that? 15:04:38 I have some code that is slow, but not slow enough to justify fixing even though there are obvious things like moving redundant calculations out of a loop, etc. 15:04:46 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:04:49 set SBCL_HOME 15:04:59 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 15:05:07 oh 15:05:23 jsnell: is it set based on the image location? 15:05:36 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 15:05:45 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:05:50 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.244.251] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:05:53 The more interesting thing in the note is that KHP displays such an aversion to open source. I've never understood why people care about what other people do with their free time. 15:06:16 mathrick: it defaults to that 15:06:30 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:07:32 -!- stuart71 [n=user@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:08:00 jsnell: aha, thanks 15:08:06 *mathrick* falls off the net 15:08:42 pitman's stance on the free lisps is sort of strange. 15:08:49 was? 15:08:54 whatever. it's weird. 15:08:55 still is, afaict 15:09:30 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:09:42 <_3b> tmh: if other will do something for free, it is harder to charge for that 15:10:35 _3b: But if it requires so little resources that it can be done for free, why should someone else be able to charge for it? 15:10:40 <[df]> I don't think people should assume they have the right to make money from stuff 15:10:42 _3b, then do something else that's useful 15:10:55 <_3b> Fare: i'm not arguning in favor of that viewpoint :) 15:10:56 -!- ASau [n=user@host186-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 15:10:59 [df], except if they are in government 15:11:18 well, that's sort of the dialectic, no? some things are hard enough that the only way to do them is free. 15:11:19 milanj [n=milan@79.101.197.158] has joined #lisp 15:11:22 *lnostdal* hands [df] his unpaid and long overdue bills 15:11:23 <[df]> and demand is a complex external factor that you can't entirely manipulate, with the availability of free alternatives being only one of many things to affect it 15:11:38 Using free software is not free anyway, it takes a fair amount of investment in time. 15:11:52 <[df]> using any software can take an investment in time 15:11:54 franz et. al. are still selling lisp licenses, so I think there's probably room for everything. 15:12:34 *Fare* looks between two neutrons in a helium atom. 15:12:45 <_3b> even if you avoid the 'free' issue, you see the same thing in for example the game industry, where many people will work pointlessly long hours very cheaply 15:12:57 -!- schmx is now known as schme 15:13:05 -!- schme is now known as schmx 15:13:17 and at this point, if lisp is ever going to be more than a red headed step child, i think it's down to the free implementations. 15:13:38 <_3b> yeah, that's one reason i prefer BSD style to GPL for lisp :) 15:13:40 it's just a strange argument, and it surprises me that he made it. 15:14:30 Fade: I agree, the free implementations will help grow the base, then when companies need more support and polish then you get from the free implementations, there will be a market for value added shops ala Red Hat or PC-BSD. 15:14:35 i sort of like kmp's arguments, but i think they are somewhat missdirected. wrt free software in general, lisp doesnt compete anyway and arguing for less free software in cll is completely pointless. 15:14:41 Can you send me a link to the pitman posts you're referring to? 15:14:46 -!- konr [n=konrad@189.96.211.64] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:14:52 wrt making use of a commercial lisp, is good and often missed. 15:15:18 Modius: in the thread around this: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/6796d74c39cd4800 15:15:22 well, at least some of his public comments happened in this thread: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/edaaaef8fe3a0cc3/6796d74c39cd4800?#6796d74c39cd4800 15:15:26 doh 15:15:35 *tmh* owns a LispWorks license for Windows, but does most of his development using SBCL+SLIME on RHEL. 15:16:09 lisp is interesting in that the only place windows is a first class citizen is /w the commercial lisp environments. 15:16:11 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 15:16:58 Fade: It's a 1.5th class citizen in CCL ;) 15:16:59 How about C#? 15:17:02 Fade, few free software guys like to play with memory mappings under Windows 15:17:13 (or under Linux, for the matter) 15:17:16 hmm. i would bet that is because most lisp hackers are former C hackers meaning unix/linux people. hacking for windows is just depressing. 15:17:53 I think it's an artifact of when the lisp standard became gestalt. 15:18:10 there was at least pre-posix, but windows wasn't even a glimmer on the horizon of serious computing. 15:18:17 -!- konr1 is now known as konr 15:18:44 hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.3.181] has joined #lisp 15:19:47 -!- prg__ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:19:54 Programming is a craft. Being a programmer is a hobby job, like working in publishing or looking after horses. The supply of those wishing to do it exceeds the demand, so there is downward pressure on prices. 15:20:15 Of course, since no-one actually knows how to program (vs. mucking out stalls) there are countervailing forces. 15:20:39 -!- Adlai` [n=user@c-69-181-142-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [No route to host] 15:21:08 that's true if you have a very loose definition of what a programmer is. 15:21:46 "hobby job" ? 15:21:52 I know a ton of cargo cultists from the php/javascript world of web development that self-identify as programmers, but I have no clear evidence that they actually are. 15:22:06 -!- rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:22:24 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:39 stuart71 [n=user@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:05 that could probably be extended to the asp/.net/java crews, but there is real work that gets done in java. idk. 15:23:08 *sellout* was a cargo cultist way back when Perl ran the Web ... those PHP guys are even cargo-culting cargo-culting! 15:23:10 piso_w [n=chatzill@c-71-197-72-155.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:11 I wouldn't call it a hobby job. 15:23:24 You don't really know what a statically skilled loosely defined programmer is until you work in an enterprise in-house software microsoft shop 15:24:20 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:24:21 On the plus side, at least it's not Java 15:24:42 Modius: you should see the oracle/database/consultant/programmer/dba-market then. :) 15:24:56 C# is used a lot around here... PHP programmers..dunno, haha. 15:25:09 I know PHP extremely well, and consider mysel a programmer, but I hate PHP in general. 15:25:23 Sadly my main job is PHP development 15:25:44 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2C2BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:25:59 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:26:04 I think just about anybody whose curiosity has lead them all the way to common lisp probably has at least the capacity to become a serious programmer. 15:26:10 Java = Java. I consider C# a vague term now. They've added the kitchen sink; but now C# means anything from people using it as Java all the way to people using Linq/lambdas everywhere to turn it into a poor man's OCaml. 15:26:20 -!- roidrage [n=roidrage@office.synium.de] has quit [] 15:26:20 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.93.32] has quit [Client Quit] 15:26:20 cargo cultists are by nature absent curiosity. :) 15:26:38 A problem with lisp is that the benefit is all on the top-end, upon serious mastery of macros. 15:26:59 Until you reach there, you have someone else writing your macros, so you might as well wait for the macros Billy G. gives you. 15:27:02 i'd say that's an overstatement. 15:27:06 (Meaning, language extensions) 15:27:25 I mean, the last benefit vs many other higher languages. Not vs Java 15:27:37 the lisp work flow is a massive benefit even at lower skill levels. 15:27:41 Fade: I've met some decent PHP programmers, but you're right - the vast majority aren't curious. 15:27:51 meingbg: Did you mean UTC1 or UTC2? 15:28:03 Fade: Problem is, I think that goes for more than just PHP programmers. I know some Java programmers who do the same thing. 15:28:24 In fact, I'd say much of the people who work at the university here as administrative staff don't do stuff outside their work a whole lot. 15:28:30 I know a ton of them; they all work for accenture and aurthur andersen. :) 15:28:41 Fade: I'm building up another theory on that. I work heavily in both dynamic (effectively) and static checked (effectively). It's like being 2 programmers, 2 distinct sets of skills. Since most are coming from C++/Java, something like lisp is just a bad place to write your Java apps. 15:28:45 Osama [n=Osama@62.240.62.168] has joined #lisp 15:28:45 They probably have social lives. 15:29:08 Those take a lot of time and effort to acquire and maintain. 15:29:25 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-91039f1a7ec8a74b] has joined #lisp 15:29:28 -!- Osama [n=Osama@62.240.62.168] has left #lisp 15:29:35 Zhivago: You're probably right - anything one's really good at will take time and effort to maintain. 15:30:09 I used to think the split we're talking about was caused by the generation gap of people who had the whole throbbing clicking and drooling environment handed to them absent any study or effort, but I think it's more general than that at this point. 15:30:35 I think it's that most people don't work for fun. 15:30:39 Fade: Would be interesting to find out the general age of people in this room. 15:30:44 Do you really need a deeper explanation? 15:30:57 sellout: your emails on asdf-devel appear to have invalid signatures 15:31:00 Fade: I mean..I'm 28, and I know a number around my age who are the "cargo cutters" that you describe. 15:31:16 i'm ten years older than you. 15:31:33 Zhivago: Well, I think it comes down to something like what the pragmatic programmer says in the introduction. 15:31:35 I think the separation is just between the craftsmen and the factory workers. They're both valuable to have in a society. 15:31:59 You just don't them mixing :p 15:32:00 I agree with dlowe 15:32:00 dlowe: that's probably an accurate description. 15:32:04 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.247.208] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:32:09 dlowe hit it partially on the head - it's the craft-methodology, taking pride in one's work. 15:32:16 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.255.44] has joined #lisp 15:32:19 factory workers also take pride in their work 15:32:41 but the investment per piece is much lower 15:32:48 -!- Guest48987 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 15:33:02 yeah, but it is more enterprisey, engineering/process-oriented, etc 15:33:15 Dunno, I've managed a number of people, some of them being these factory-type programmers, and very little thought is put into what they are building. 15:33:16 and a factory process is about maintaining a minimum quality while maximizing quantity 15:33:36 vs spontaneous, creative, etc on the craftmanship side 15:33:45 dlowe: sounds like internal web app development 15:33:45 well, maintaining a minimum cost, which usually translates to quality 15:33:50 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:34:08 TDT: that's what I mean by investment per item 15:34:16 Haha - we apply manufacturing processes like six sigma to software. Apparently a software shop is an assembly line for lines of code and one of them was defective haha 15:34:18 dlowe: So speed really..fast programmers, I mean hell they can get a whole lot done really quickly - but it's sometimes I look at and thinking "what were they thinking?" 15:34:21 the factory-oriented are about money, bottom-line 15:34:35 jleija: spontaneous and creative craftmanship sounds not so good all the time. Think of hiring a carpenter for your home, or someone to weld somethnig on your car. That requires a skilled craftsman. You don't want no creative and spontaneous stuff :) 15:34:36 the analogy isn't perfect. As programmers, we can make our own tooling machines :D 15:34:47 the crafters are about the craft, per-se because it is fun. Intrinsic value. 15:35:34 schmx: but you want creativity in the craft and healthy natural curiosity for the craft, some exploration is good 15:35:47 jleija: Sure man. But not when doing actual work. 15:36:04 Well, about the carpenter - you don't want someone who only learned how to do certain designs all the time, because if they reach a problem that requires "thinking outside the box", then they won't get there. There's a balance I think..too much thought by the carpenter and nothing gets done, ever. 15:36:35 Now I only brought this carpenter thing up to steer tho conversation over to Jesus. 15:36:38 ;) 15:36:41 That's the problem I've found with "factory-style" programmers, is that if you give them a problem they haven't encountered, getting them to figure it out and to find an elegant solution is well, a challenge. 15:36:46 schmx: i agree that there are some standards and good-practices to maintain. Maybe "spontaneous" was too strong. 15:36:50 lol schmx 15:37:34 But ya. hiring a craftsman that couldn't figure out a new situation, and didn't have "a thing" for whatever would be a bit not always good :D 15:37:44 Modius: You couldn't be more correct. 15:37:46 *schmx* goes back to eating chicken before getting dragged into this too deep. 15:37:46 For myself...and back to the PHP thing, I realy need to get out of that language. PHP has almost no thought process behind it and a lot of weird hacks that come up. I really dislike some of the stuff I need to do in that language. 15:38:01 TDT: Problem is that the elegant solution won't be found - they'll choose to deliver a little less and try to convince you it's what you really want. 15:38:07 minion: help logs 15:38:47 minion: logs 15:38:48 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 15:38:53 fe[nl]ix: Yeah ... is it because of the mailing list footer that's tacked on? 15:38:59 Xach: Thanks! 15:39:24 the factory analogy is probably v.accurate. I've tried to sell clients on lisp, but the common refrain is that lisp programmers aren't replaceable as a commodity. 15:39:46 *Fade* shrugs 15:39:49 sellout: I don't really know, but I also sign my emails and they appear valid(on the same list) 15:39:58 The factory analogy fails very badly because making software is more like the process of retooling a factory than manufacturing with an existing factory. 15:40:11 In my world, they want cogs, and I can respect that. The thing is, cogs mean predictability. Say you have heroes. What happens if a hero quits? Or has an off week or decides he only wants to work 8 hours a day that week? 15:40:16 Fade: THat's probably right though - I know *no* lisp programmers at all where I live..it's depressing quite honestly. 15:40:21 rpg: that reminds me of the FactoryFactory pattern 15:40:24 rpg: that's not true in a large number of domains. 15:40:28 it's all cut and paste. 15:40:29 Fade: Hence one of the big reasons why I hang out in this room ;) 15:40:31 rpg: that doesn't mean it's not an accurate description of the mindsets, though 15:40:47 lisp programmers aren't that common, it's true. 15:40:59 but since I've been working in lisp, my programs have become better. 15:41:03 It's time to reread "The Mythical Man-Month" again, and rue the fact that the field has learned little since the 70s. 15:41:05 There are at least 10 in this very channel 15:41:27 Fade: Same here - I definitely don't regret getting into lisp. I wish I was a better programmer though..I still feel I'm not that good. 15:41:28 this channel is biased 15:41:45 TDT: almost everybody feels that way. 15:41:49 Fade: Knowing lisp makes some programming harder too - you see the patterns you can't factor out, programming in anything else is like programming without color. 15:42:04 <_3b> Xach: so if we factor a 10x productivity for using lisp, we have almost enough to do a small component of an 'enterprise' project? :) 15:42:09 as a monochromat, I'm going to have to take your word for it. ;) 15:42:24 dlowe: It is certainly an accurate picture of the mindset. That mindset was quite clearly delineated in TMM and really has changed little since then. 15:42:31 _3b: probably several FactoryFactory patterns. 15:42:37 rpg: The field is a lot worse - in the 70s the industry filtered out anyone who was not capable of grasping what a pointer is. 15:42:50 Modius: ah, those golden times 15:42:51 'enterprise' projects are usually just a lot of SQL strings embedded in a laberinthine java class hierarchy. :) 15:42:55 <_3b> Xach: nah, we're lispers, we can make a FactoryFactoryFactory macro :p 15:42:58 The problem is that software engineering right now really is not a manufacturing domain. The economics are all different. 15:43:05 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.3.181] has quit [Success] 15:43:11 Not that you SHOULD have to use pointers; but someone who is incapable of understanding them. . . . 15:43:13 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 15:43:37 rpg: I disagree. The easy availability of code on the internet means that it itself has become the raw material 15:43:55 yeah, the new programmers now look more like "technicians" than "engineers" 15:44:00 software engineering isn't an engineering domain, either. lol 15:44:13 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:44:17 maybe software as an industry is just getting to this new stage 15:44:42 where you need more technicians than "scientists/engineers" 15:44:47 -!- jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:44:48 My DB guy, trying to sound PC, called us (avg programmer in my industry) "code facilitators" 15:44:58 haha 15:45:03 *Fade* blinks 15:45:35 hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.29.16] has joined #lisp 15:45:48 dlowe: Absolutely not. Making a copy is free in software; it's expensive when you are making hubcaps. Software is a design process and an engineering process, not a manufacturing process. 15:46:03 Modius: and the MBAs would call you "workers" at best. :) 15:46:04 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.197.158] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:46:07 I can't drive your car; I need my own. I can drive your software. 15:46:21 rpg: retooling the existing software to meet the needs of a specific business is where the added value comes in 15:46:26 Here's the problem though - the cogs and the programmers can't fully coexist. You want to use lisp? Or the s**t that was just added to C#? Your cog burnt up his last shred of braincell learning imperative C-syntax get-set-globals-everywhere monkeycoding. You can type in your better s**t but he's never gonna be able to read it. 15:46:31 milanj [n=milan@93.87.192.84] has joined #lisp 15:47:02 dlowe: Absolutely. And the process of making another identical copy of Oracle is essentially a no-op. But methodologies like 6-sigma for manufacturing are all about that making the nth identical copy. 15:47:04 Then comes the question - do you want to allow/empower your good programmers and render the cogs useless, or bias toward hiring reliably replaceable cogs? 15:47:11 <[df]> TDT: I've (partly) written a lisp interpreter in php 15:47:27 <[df]> the plan is to use it at work and claim that the lisp is just 'config' 15:47:41 Six sigma is a ripoff of the old cop show "columbo". Our six-sigma guy badgers me until I make something up or confess just to make him go away. 15:47:42 Modius: Brooks states and evaluates this tradeoff far more clearly than I ever could. 15:47:43 [df]: heh, nice 15:48:05 rpg: What do you mean? Link? 15:48:42 he's referring the the mythical man month. 15:49:17 Modius: I think if the business hires good programmers and less "cogs" and just keeps the job interesting, that the good programmers will stay. 15:50:09 tdt: and that makes perfect sense, except that is not what MBAs teach 15:50:15 there aren't that many commercial organisations that have problems interesting enough to hold onto really good programmers. 15:50:16 <[df]> possibly true, but HR departments can't differentiate between the two 15:50:46 it's mostly just writing select statements and generating reports. 15:50:50 In my racket everything's retooling to be done by people in India (not picking on the people or the geography per se) with 3 years experience and a microsoft diploma. 15:50:56 for which you basically want monkeys. 15:51:20 jleija: That's because it's a bit risky in the sense that replacing a good key programmer is very very hard. 15:51:21 Fade: except of course for your own bizz projects, right? and there's where lisp shines anyway: underground skunkworks kind of projects. 15:51:49 I use lisp inside my own company to keep myself competitive with other much larger outfits. 15:52:03 but I have a small group of pretty talented people, so I win in that respect. 15:52:05 I know you can (setf (symbol-function 'foo) #'bar), but how do you setf the setf function of foo? 15:52:11 Modius: The Mythical Man-Month, Fred Brooks, Jr. http://www.amazon.com/Mythical-Man-Month-Software-Engineering-Anniversary/dp/0201835959/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248191507&sr=8-1 15:52:12 Fade: yeah...haha, what's ironic about that is that I do that here as well as well. 15:52:32 yeah, but instead of thinking on the "risks" they should see the "potential" behind good, motivated, programmers 15:52:45 but I understand that's just the way it is 15:52:48 Fade: I do some SQL Server stuff, but I'm all over on what I do..which is incredibly stressful most of the time. 15:52:50 clhs fdefinition 15:52:50 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fdefin.htm 15:53:08 (setf (fdefinition '(setf foo)) #'bar) 15:53:27 Those who don't read Fred Brooks are doomed to repeat him. 15:53:28 Now I'm hoping if I got into the PhD program (which isn't horribly difficult here), then maybe I'd find stuff more interesting. 15:53:36 stassats: thank you very much :) 15:54:59 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 15:55:03 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-29-72.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:56:08 (sigh) - I guess if I want to manage my manage my legion of cogs I should get around to reading Mythical Manmonth 15:56:25 aaah! a manager! keel it! 15:56:29 willb1 [n=wibenton@compsci-wifi-39.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 15:56:36 Modius: At least it will help you realize the limitations of having a legion of cogs. 15:56:46 The Mythical Maamouth! :-) 15:56:46 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@compsci-wifi-39.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:56:47 screw cogs. i want an army of minions! 15:56:59 rpg: I think few have suffered the limitations of having a legion of cogs more than I :( 15:57:04 Look on the bright side --- if you get laid off you can get a job in the officer corps of the North Korean army! 15:57:38 *Fade* laughs 15:57:51 Hmm, sounds unlikely. 15:59:00 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:01:16 minion: chant 16:01:16 MORE THAN 16:06:04 *rpg* must shift location.... 16:06:13 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 16:06:21 Ogedei [n=user@e178229139.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:06:39 -!- piso_w [n=chatzill@c-71-197-72-155.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.1/20090715094852]"] 16:06:39 Surely the idea is to replace the meat cogs with silicon/software cogs. Cloud cogs? 16:06:47 Tools like microsoft - microsoft being the "unified microsoft system" - may empower cogs sufficiently for business needs to be met without real programmers, just visual tools and MS-diploma trained sweatshop workers. Just saying, it has been the case so far but may not be forever that most companies face real software development issues like we've had for the last 20 years. 16:07:33 -!- jamief [n=jamie@tansur.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:07:58 I'd say that would be true if we didn't treat programmers as cogs, and consistently refused to learn from the past/other domains. 16:08:05 we aren't refining our methodologies. :) 16:08:18 and here I use 'we' very loosely. 16:08:56 software is destined to remain a disaster for the forseeable future. 16:09:08 there's just too much money to be gained by keeping it that way. 16:09:14 dabd [n=dabd@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 16:09:26 hehe, yeap 16:09:38 Dunno, I think there's a strong movement to make better code. Books like the pragmatic programmer, and others, are trying to address some of the issues. 16:10:15 TDT: that movement is almost entirely comtained within the free software world, and in shops with criticl pieces of bespoke in-house code. 16:10:27 finance, mechanical engineering, aerospace. 16:10:48 Fade: That's true, very true. But, it is nice that some movement is being made, even if it's not widespread. 16:11:21 I think F# is a bit of a ray of sunshine at .Net-based dev shops; but sadly at a joint like mine, where we're supposed to outsource everyone, we couldn't eat the retraining costs of transient workers. 16:11:32 the software behemoths have done a more efficient job at retarding progress than I would have imagined possible. 16:11:58 It is possible that the action of "keeping it that way" is partly of the customer as well - how much pascal/cobol code is running as we are speaking? 16:12:01 Modius: The outsourcing thing is what worries me the most. 16:12:03 F# is the haskellish lang on top of .net? 16:12:27 Fade: OCaml. It's a good "gateway" lang to Haskell. It's beautified; but still mostly as butt-ugly as OCaml 16:12:37 heh 16:12:47 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:13:06 It's OCaml modded to fit with .Net objects via the short syntax. It annoyed me at first as being compromised into C#; but I have to admit they did a pretty good job. 16:13:06 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@113.77.29.199] has joined #lisp 16:13:09 yeap, but I think some progress is being made ... c# now has lambdas (I know it is 50 years later but c# seems to be moving along within the last 5 years) 16:13:32 C# 3.0 is a great productivity booster - although my code annoys the cogs who don't use it. 16:13:49 (C#3 being with its half-okay type inference and its short lambda expressions) 16:13:51 I know a couple of banks that have really embraced F# 16:14:04 but as the deployment platform is all windows, I'm deeply leary. 16:14:16 nemerle was a good promise with macros ... but it didn't fly as many other promising languages 16:14:20 A lot of the windows-bashing is . . . . unfortunate. 16:14:20 perls before swine and all that. 16:14:57 That's part of the reason I'm learning it - mastery may be a foot-in-the-door at some place full of F# zealots who can't fill all their offices. 16:15:05 Windows makes up 8% of the installs in my machine room, but is directly responsible for 90% of the pages. 16:15:43 90% of the troubles? 16:15:46 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:15:50 yep 16:16:01 Just think of what it does for the GDP. 16:16:11 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:16:39 the good news is that while software industry is not yet standardized as, say finance or civil engineering, we still get a chance to have fun developing new stuff (sometimes) 16:16:46 we charge punatively for windows RU's, but they still sell. 16:16:57 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 16:17:00 our children, on the other hand, they may turn to be cogs :( 16:17:24 we're always going to need people who understand what pointers are. :) 16:17:34 educate your children appropriately. 16:17:59 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-79-16.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 16:18:22 <_3b> that thing on the screen you move around with the mouse, right? :) 16:18:34 heh =) 16:19:14 hahaha, yeap, that's what pointers are 16:20:43 I wonder what percentage of programmers get to do the "fun" stuff 16:21:03 *sellout* raises his hand 16:21:09 jleija: I think that depends on the programmer, if they do stuff at home, or just at work. 16:21:12 <_3b> does it count if you aren't getting paid for it? 16:21:31 jleija: I do relatively uninteresting stuff at work, infact...mind numbing most times. The really fun stuff is at home. 16:21:59 I was thinking as in programming-for-a-living 16:22:20 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@29.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:22:27 You know, before I had a lisp job, I would go home and write lisp. When I got a lisp job, I wondered "what language will I program at home now?" Turns out I just go rock climbing. 16:22:42 well, even in a really good shop like google or ITA, I suspect 95% of the work is sweat and 5% fun. 16:22:52 I've been fortunate enough to have challenging jobs and projects (most of the time). But I can't say the same for most of my friends. 16:22:52 Yeah...I'll keep my hand down, haah. Maintaining an over-complex and ill-thought out system for a living kinda sucks, especially since I have the unfortunate side effect of being here long enough to be the only one who really knows how it works. 16:23:09 sellout: that's awesome. 16:23:11 *wgl* raises hand! 16:23:15 the majority of programming is dirty and boring, which is why I gravitate toward technologies that minimise the dirty and boring. 16:23:44 Fade: Like hwat? hehe 16:23:53 *Fade* looks around 16:23:57 seriously? 16:24:00 lol 16:24:27 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.246.90] has joined #lisp 16:24:32 Fade: Well, keep in mind I haven't seen a lisp job at all, ever, around here...lisp is something most people around here barely heard of. 16:24:54 It's all C#/Java/PHP here, except in this office which has some ruby/rails stuff going on. 16:25:23 for me it's been all c++, sometimes ruby 16:25:29 I haven't done any kind of meaningful programming in $forever 16:26:14 I built an ontology last week. :) 16:26:41 C# is getting there 16:26:44 unlike Java 16:26:50 (or PHP) 16:27:05 Zhivago, what did that entail? 16:27:27 java isn't as repellant to me now that clojure is pretty evolved. 16:27:36 Shoving a bunch of s-p-o triples into a large table. 16:28:42 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:29:29 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 16:31:04 I kinda dug the look of ABCL until seeing it didn't support deployment 16:31:28 Modius: how so? 16:31:35 Personally I wish Pythonw ould make a greater impact around here 16:31:38 You have to load in compile-file emissions 16:32:05 I just mean it ain't ready *now* to take the place of a CL 16:32:07 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:32:35 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 16:32:39 C# may be getting the kitchen sink but Java is a dead end. All over those stupid checked exceptions. 16:33:05 One thing checked exceptions highlighted is they're a more extreme example of what you give up with statically typed call signatures. 16:33:19 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:33:38 with a bad typesystem 16:33:50 No worse really than C#s though and C# could get lambdas. 16:34:01 C# *does* have lambdas these days 16:34:05 But Java can't follow, because of the checked exceptions 16:34:09 (though not everyone uses the latest) 16:34:11 Even the delegates were serviceable 16:34:22 YEah, I am ostracized for it - if I didn't have all the power someone would stop me. 16:34:29 Modius: checked exceptions are much like monad towers, except that you don't have to worry about ordering them right. 16:35:11 I thought special variables and dynamically-scoped functions were much like monad towers without worry? 16:35:52 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:55 Fare: i mean wrt painful composition. 16:36:07 1s and 0s are like everything else, only without any of these silly names 16:36:33 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:37:41 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.255.44] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:40:16 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:27 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-29-72.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:42:58 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:43:04 -!- dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:45:37 A plus to having a CL on the JVM or .Net - those backends have fast garbage collectors and have had quite a bit of test coverage. 16:46:10 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:46:30 I realize though that idiomatic small-link data structures would waste hella ram without a VM optimized for cons cells and fixnums. . . . 16:49:04 asksol [n=ask@249.241.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:49:14 rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:58 -!- asksol [n=ask@249.241.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 16:51:05 A capitalist is someone who produces more than he consumes. A parasite is someone who consumes more than he produces. 16:51:07 good one 16:51:12 wrong channel 16:51:52 Also complete nonsense. 16:51:55 asksol [n=ask@249.241.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:52:19 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit ["leaving"] 16:52:22 A capitalist is one who invests capital -- a kind of money lender. 16:52:31 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:52:48 -!- KingThomasV [n=KingThom@76.122.37.30] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:52:49 Hmm - I thought the word was used more to describe the political alignment. You could theoretically be a capitalist bum, for example. 16:52:59 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-c5e9ff8f94878857] has joined #lisp 16:53:10 Fare: this may be relevant for your other channel: http://www.bondheads.com/cow_economics.htm 16:53:24 What does capitalism have to do with political alignment? tsk tsk 16:53:35 -!- Kickaha [n=jadawin@bl5-16-89.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["leaving"] 16:53:36 Zhivago: What Fare said can be true of false dependent on the definition of "produce". 16:53:41 It's a political philosophy 16:53:54 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 16:54:11 Kickaha [n=user@bl5-16-89.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 16:54:16 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:56:01 -!- hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit ["leaving"] 16:57:06 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 16:57:22 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:57:53 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-29-72.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:58:35 -!- dabd [n=dabd@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 17:00:55 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:05:37 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:10:57 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["Game Time."] 17:10:59 snafuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:04 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-29-72.netcologne.de] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:12:04 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:12:04 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.192.84] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:12:04 -!- nerdshark [n=dorkfish@74-131-32-72.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:12:04 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:12:04 -!- mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-4fe070d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:12:04 -!- antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:12:04 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:12:29 mcspiff [n=user@DC7CB.WPA.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 17:14:00 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:14:38 mikezor [n=mikael@c-4fe070d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:14:45 -!- joswig [n=joswig@f054052006.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:14:54 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 17:15:20 lispm [n=joswig@f054052006.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:17:31 milanj [n=milan@93.87.192.84] has joined #lisp 17:17:32 -!- lispm [n=joswig@f054052006.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:18:13 what is the svn address for linux-x86 clozure? 17:18:22 svn co http://svn.clozure.com/publicsvn/openmcl/release/1.3/darwinx86/ccl doesn't work.. 17:18:30 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:18:43 Elench: I thought it was an economic system. 17:19:00 luis: i'm inclined to see economics as part of politics 17:19:05 jthing: perhaps because it's darwinx86, not linuxx86? 17:19:08 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:19:14 actually that DOES work. but substitute linuxx86 and it doesn't 17:19:33 gio123 [n=gio123@81.95.167.104] has joined #lisp 17:19:54 jthing: works for me, check your spelling 17:19:56 is anybody at uni atm? 17:20:04 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 17:20:11 Which uni, heh. 17:20:26 any uni 17:20:38 Elench: it's a tool for politics, perhaps. 17:20:45 *stassats`* dropped out again 17:23:12 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-29-72.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:23:30 stassats`: right. "svn co http://svn.clozure.com/publicsvn/openmcl/release/1.3/linuxx86/ccl" workes now 17:23:41 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:24:59 mathrick, dlowe: I think it is a mistake trying to unify precise and "human" date offsets. E.g., I think I could make a case for Jan 31st + 1 month to be March 1. I would expect something else if the offset would be expressed as "30 days". 17:25:23 michaelw: I do too. That's why I made separate timestamp and timespec types 17:25:30 is anybody at uni atm? 17:25:39 gio123: sure. 17:25:58 gio123: why are you so interested? 17:26:12 I need to get paper from springer web page 17:26:22 http://www.springerlink.com/content/q552u15130p1385p/ 17:26:32 can somebody help me? 17:26:37 gio123: hold on. 17:26:42 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-117-37.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 17:27:00 harming the publishing industry? hell yeah! ;) 17:27:05 nerdshark [n=dorkfish@74-131-32-72.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 17:29:47 michaelw: that's odd... jan31 + 1mo is Feb 28/29 in my mind ... a month having passed at that point :) 17:30:15 -!- gio123 [n=gio123@81.95.167.104] has left #lisp 17:30:35 michaelw: but I still need a lib to do the human counting for me. If I wanted precision only, I could content myself with universal time + nsecs 17:31:05 I'm with drewc. 17:31:30 drewc: the problem is that if you offset it 12 times, you should end up on jan 31 again 17:31:41 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:31:55 mathrick: why is that a problem? 17:32:06 ah 17:32:09 mathrick: not really 17:32:11 drewc: sure, that's why such things should perhaps be configurable 17:32:20 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:32:27 luis: it means the timestamp would need hidden components for "logic" only 17:32:35 -!- Ogedei [n=user@e178229139.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:32:50 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:33:35 mathrick: if you offset "1 day" 30 times, you don't expect that to be the same as 1 month, no? (unless you work in a bank, perhaps) 17:34:03 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 17:34:43 michaelw: point, but then, months are not defined to have X days always. Years are defined to have Y (= 12) months 17:34:53 ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.95.151] has joined #lisp 17:35:08 you can say "a year has passed" or "twelve months have passed", and a human listener will expect them to be equivalent 17:35:11 X-Scale2 [i=email@89.180.144.5] has joined #lisp 17:35:36 mathrick: i don't see the issue. 17:35:53 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has quit [] 17:35:55 kami-` [n=user@193.218.18.18] has joined #lisp 17:36:08 davazp` [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:52 drewc: if you define 31th of X + a month to be "the latest possible day of X + 1", then if you start on jan 31 and advance 12 times, you will end up on jan 28 17:36:59 slash__ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 17:37:14 mathrick: but I will happily say that a year has passed, despite it being, say, 370 days actually. IOW, I don't care to be precise to the second when I talk about years. 17:37:16 I'd like a calendar that would understand an event that occurs, for example, on the first monday of every month 17:37:21 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:21 -!- Kickaha [n=user@bl5-16-89.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:21 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:21 -!- stuart71 [n=user@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:21 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:21 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:21 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:21 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:21 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:21 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:21 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-160-171-119.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:21 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:21 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:21 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host157.190-137-190.telecom.net.ar] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:21 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@63.107.91.99] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:21 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:21 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:21 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:25 -!- lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-22-9.dynamic.amis.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:25 -!- azanar [n=azanar@dsl231-050-107.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:25 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:25 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:25 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:25 -!- ineiros_ [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:25 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.144.5] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:25 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:25 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:25 -!- kooll [n=samson_t@sd-10510.dedibox.fr] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:25 -!- schmx [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:25 -!- cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:28 lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-22-9.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:38 tmh: many do 17:37:46 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 17:38:09 drewc: unless you somehow keep the "extra" days around and don't count them in the timestamp, but then there are magical components that can't be seen, but influence how the timestamp works 17:38:16 time hysteresis if you want 17:38:17 michaelw: I should have clarified. I'd like it only Treo 680. 17:38:22 stuart71 [n=user@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:22 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:38:22 blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has joined #lisp 17:38:22 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 17:38:22 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:38:22 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 17:38:22 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:22 s0ber [i=pie@118-160-171-119.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:22 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:38:22 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 17:38:22 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 17:38:22 djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:38:22 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 17:38:22 TR2N [i=email@89.180.144.5] has joined #lisp 17:38:22 schmx [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 17:38:22 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 17:38:22 kooll [n=samson_t@sd-10510.dedibox.fr] has joined #lisp 17:38:22 ineiros_ [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 17:38:22 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 17:38:22 jkantz [n=jkantz@63.107.91.99] has joined #lisp 17:38:22 Tordek [n=tordek@host157.190-137-190.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:38:22 azanar [n=azanar@dsl231-050-107.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:22 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:22 cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 17:38:22 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:25 s/only/on my/ 17:38:34 mathrick: why the + 1? last day of month x + 1 month is last day of month x+1, not the first day of month x+2 17:38:40 The first monday of every month is well defined. +1 month isn't. 17:38:41 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:38:49 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:38:53 -!- stuart71 [n=user@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:39:13 drewc: sorry, I meant (X + 1) 17:39:31 stuart71 [n=user@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:31 ie. month number X+1 17:39:33 There is no duration of a month, so don't try to use it as a duration. 17:39:46 Zhivago: now tell that to people 17:39:55 So what happens when the current day isn't a day in the subsequent month? 17:40:07 of course, we don't know what it means ourselves, but that doesn't stop us from using the unit 17:40:17 Zhivago: that's exactly the problem 17:40:36 The problem is in allowing people to specify things like that. 17:40:46 Zhivago: there is certainly a duration of a month ... it just varies depending on the time of year. 17:40:51 I've got a problem with newest version of SLIME. 17:40:57 Any of the developers herefh 17:41:01 moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 17:41:01 *here? 17:41:03 meingbg: what problem? 17:41:05 -!- Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:41:06 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:35 drew: So, what is the duration of a month today? 17:41:40 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:41:53 drew: Hopefully you can see why what you said is wrong. 17:41:53 Depends on the direction. :-) 17:42:06 stassats`: slime-macroexpand-1-inplace adds an extra ')' after the replaced form, but only if done through a keyboard macro (keys entered too fast?) 17:42:13 drew: The current month has a duration, but that's not the duration of a month. 17:42:26 Zhivago: ahh... that's a good point. i can tell you the duration of this _month_, but not 'a month from today' 17:43:01 drewc: what does someone mean when they say "this time next month?" 17:43:11 Zhivago: though, i could reasonable argue that July 21 is a month from today. 17:43:25 tmh pasted "First 3 dictionary entries for month." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83930 17:43:35 drewc: you mean August 21st 17:43:46 So what would be a month from the 30th of January? 17:44:04 I don't think that you can reasonably argue that, myself. 17:44:11 stassats`: Maybe this is an emacs problem, I don't know. They keyboard macro does move the cursor right after the replace, a keyboard macro that ends right after the replace causes no trouble. 17:44:13 Zhivago: as luis suggests, December 30th 17:44:15 luis: it's not june? :) 17:44:21 luis: where does the summer go! 17:44:27 s/They/The 17:44:42 Zhivago: that's easy, Feb 27/28 17:44:52 drewc: Why? 17:45:03 drewc: 28/29? 17:45:04 *tmh* is always bothered by the ambiguity between sense 2 and 3. 17:45:11 Zhivago: because a month has passed 17:45:15 Which I guess is the crux of the discussion. 17:45:16 drewc: so, how about defining (offset :month 1) as "it is guaranteed that the resulting timestamp will fall on month + 1 and the total time difference will be no more than 31 days"? 17:45:24 drewc: How do you know? 17:45:36 drewc: (note it's 31 days, not necessarily 31 * 3600 seconds) 17:46:14 drewc: I don't think anything more meaningful can be defined 17:46:17 davazp`` [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:21 What does 'a month has passed' mean? 17:46:34 -!- davazp`` [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:46:36 mathrick, we have code like that at ITA (to roll time forward or back a few weeks/months/years) 17:46:38 kami-`` [n=user@193.218.18.18] has joined #lisp 17:46:43 Zhivago: of course this is arguable, but I be the majority of people will agree on what it means 17:46:47 antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:48 Zhivago: i don't obviously ... the point i'm trying to get at is while there may not be a technically correct answer, there are reasonable assumptions one can make, and if one wants to implements such a feature, one can do so. 17:46:55 s/be/bet/ 17:47:16 -!- lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-22-9.dynamic.amis.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:47:16 -!- davazp` [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:47:16 -!- kami-` [n=user@193.218.18.18] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:47:16 -!- snafuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:47:16 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-c5e9ff8f94878857] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:47:16 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:47:16 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:47:16 i measure time in beards 17:47:28 Fare: how does it deal with this mess? 17:47:36 meingbg: i'll try to reproduce 17:47:48 lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-22-9.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:50 drewc: actually, the same problem exists with years. What does feb 29 + 1 year mean? 17:47:58 stassats`: I can paste a keyboard macro 17:47:59 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.29.16] has quit [No route to host] 17:48:09 mathrick: how long is a year? 17:48:18 meingbg: that'd be helpful 17:48:20 depends on which year it is 17:48:29 usually, but not always, 365 days 17:48:38 meingbg: and the form too 17:48:39 mathrick: wrong .. it's 365.25 days 17:48:50 :) 17:48:57 stassats`: That would be an entire package. 17:49:02 approximately 17:49:03 drewc: what about the 100-year exception and the extra second? 17:49:04 drewc: So, how many days are in one year? :) 17:49:20 meingbg: does it fail on (defun foo ()) ? 17:49:20 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-c5e9ff8f94878857] has joined #lisp 17:49:20 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:20 ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:25 drewc: And the answer isn't 365.25 17:49:35 stassats`: no. 17:49:38 drewc: So, you're saying you should move forward 6 hours in the day when you add a year? ;) 17:49:44 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 17:49:58 sellout: that would be a reasonable solution too ... :) 17:50:02 -!- ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.95.151] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:50:08 Zhivago: it's 365 or 366 of course 17:50:08 drewc: Only if you are insane. 17:50:12 drewc: and you're doing the same thing I originally bitched about! If you change the hour when I asked you to change the year, someone will be hit with blunt objects :) 17:50:16 meingbg: oh well, then paste what fails 17:50:27 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [No route to host] 17:50:30 drews: Well, so much for years as durations. :) 17:50:44 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:50:49 mathrick: fair enough .. i'm just arguing for agruments sake really.. waiting for a compile :) 17:50:49 This is probably why sensible people measure these durations in days and weeks. 17:51:17 Zhivago: let me introduce you to the rules of numbering weeks across countries 17:51:26 you can read all about it on ICU's page 17:51:34 mathrick: Irrelevant. 17:51:38 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:51:47 -!- mcspiff [n=user@DC7CB.WPA.Dal.Ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:51:50 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.144.5] has quit [Success] 17:52:02 mathrick: The numbering of a week has nothing to do with the duration of a week. 17:52:05 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:13 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Success] 17:52:39 probably less than numbering months and the duration of a month 17:52:56 incidentally, does anyone have the book "calendrical calculations" (Dershowitz) around? IIRC, it came with code in Lisp. 17:53:05 drewc: I'm not really arguing, I'm trying to decide what it should mean 17:53:14 michael: I have had it, but not currently -- it comes with CL code. 17:53:20 -!- Jarvellis is now known as Elench 17:53:23 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:53:28 scode_ [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 17:53:33 I think you can download the code separately. 17:53:34 mathrick: what it should mean is arguably undecidable. 17:54:11 meingbg: i see from the code there could be problems with moving point while macroexpanding 17:54:20 hi. what's the most straightforward way to turn a multi-line string (i.e. read-sequence from a text file) into a list of the individual lines? 17:54:46 dto: (split-sequence #\Newline string) 17:54:54 minion: split-sequence 17:54:55 split-sequence: SPLIT-SEQUENCE (formerly known as PARTITION) is a member of the Common Lisp Utilities family of programs, designed by community consensus. http://www.cliki.net/split-sequence 17:55:04 stassats`: ok. 17:55:09 drewc: ooh, cool. 17:55:10 dto: i think if i really wanted that, i would loop with READ-LINE 17:55:14 dto: w-i-f-s + read-line would be another option 17:55:15 ah 17:55:16 drewc: yes, but we should still give clear semantics or explicitly forbid doing that 17:55:25 michaelw: what's w-i-f-s 17:55:25 stassats`: I have reproduced the bug w/o need of the package. just 5 lines now to reproduce. 17:55:36 dto: WITH-INPUT-FROM-STRING 17:55:54 -!- Kirklander [n=Kirkland@216.93.247.56] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:56:01 Kirklander [n=Kirkland@216.93.247.56] has joined #lisp 17:56:01 mathrick: thanks 17:57:10 dto: i'm with Xach though ... you should read it is a list of lines in the first place if you can. 17:57:11 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 17:57:57 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 17:58:28 drewc: i'm gonna do that. thank you :) 17:58:51 dto: (series:collect (series:scan-file file #'read-line)) would work ;) 17:59:04 Kickaha [n=user@bl5-16-89.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 17:59:53 michaelw: Glad someone's here to take over rahul's role ;) 18:00:06 -!- lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-22-9.dynamic.amis.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:00:06 -!- antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:00:06 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:00:06 -!- asksol [n=ask@249.241.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:00:06 -!- PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:00:06 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:00:06 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:00:06 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-40-86.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:00:06 -!- erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:00:06 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:00:06 -!- tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:00:06 -!- gz [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:00:06 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-187-178.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:01:09 lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-22-9.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:10 meingbg pasted "slime-macroexpand-1-inplace bug" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83931 18:01:17 asksol [n=ask@249.241.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:01:26 so, I'm always confused by SERIES: does it, or does it not work on ANSI CL? 18:01:43 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 18:02:18 TDT pasted "DRY-Possibility?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83932 18:02:26 antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:04 stassats`: let me know wheather or not you could reproduce. 18:03:06 mathrick: Haven't looked at the code, but it at least works on popular implementations. 18:03:12 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:18 pkhuong: ping 18:03:25 mathrick: mu. the code contains reader conditionals, but... what sellout says 18:03:38 Hey all, this piece of code I'm trying to make. the general idea of what I'm trying to accomplish is to define a list of comands first, then define the condition based off each command possibility. I'd almost like to develop a stub method for each too, but I'll get to that later...I know *git-commands* isn't available at macro expansion time, is there a way to set this up so I only define the list of commands once instead of twice? 18:03:41 PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 18:03:41 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 18:03:41 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 18:03:41 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-40-86.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:03:41 erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 18:03:41 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:03:41 tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 18:03:41 gz [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 18:03:41 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-187-178.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 18:03:43 tessier__ [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 18:03:43 dto: (iter (for line :in-file file) (collect line)) 18:03:48 -!- tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:03:50 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-40-86.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:03:53 can anybody try (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy :debug 3) ? I get a failed-aver here 18:04:02 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-40-86.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:04:04 sellout: hmm, so why do I always see mentions of "porting SERIES" in the context of impossibly daunting tasks? 18:04:04 luis: boo! :) 18:04:09 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 18:04:40 Edico [n=Dezlagra@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 18:04:49 mathrick: the code is... interesting 18:04:49 hmm, I think that should be. (iter (for line :in-file file :using #'read-line) (collect line)) 18:05:13 meingbg: i can, yes 18:05:13 michaelw: I know, but it was always said as if getting it to work on any ANSI CL would be impossible 18:05:16 mcspiff [n=user@DC7CB.WPA.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 18:05:35 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Operation timed out] 18:07:13 dto pasted "why doesn't this work? " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83933 18:07:37 luis: why doesn't this work? it gives me back the number 77! 18:07:44 -!- scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:07:53 dto: (loop for line = (read-line stream nil) while line collect line) 18:08:12 Heh, we forgot about the LOOP solution. :-) 18:08:22 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:08:29 i really need to learn LOOP. 18:08:37 -!- asksol [n=ask@249.241.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:08:37 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:08:39 dto: Don't LOOP, ITERATE. 18:08:56 *Xach* LOOPs 18:09:11 meingbg: that's because you insert space before macroexpansion takes place 18:09:13 Stop! Iteration time. 18:09:17 eheheh 18:09:20 asksol [n=ask@249.241.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:09:20 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:09:20 iteration zeit. 18:09:59 that could be fixed with markers... 18:10:07 (do ((line (read-line stream nil) (read-line stream nil)) (result nil (cons line result))) (line (nreverse result))) 18:10:22 ugh 18:10:25 dlowe: go away... 18:10:26 simplicity itself :D 18:10:29 PROG, anybody? :) 18:10:36 works! :) 18:11:08 dlowe: (not line)? 18:11:13 *Xach* likes DO from time to time 18:11:40 fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 18:12:04 dto: that code you pasted works for me. 18:12:43 hmm. 18:12:46 maybe i had a stale fasl. 18:14:30 that's not very LOOPy with the LET and all. and no finally (..) ? 18:14:37 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-82-169.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:14:49 (let (line result) (tagbody read-line (setf line (read-line stream nil)) (when line (push line result) (go read-line))) result) 18:14:57 ahaha 18:14:59 ok, I'm done 18:14:59 ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 18:15:09 schmx: Xach has already shown the LOOPy solution. 18:15:14 oh 18:15:25 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:15:36 *schmx* waits for the FFI solution. 18:16:06 Xach: I can never remember if the end condition for DO is a continuation or a termination clause 18:16:20 dlowe: clearly, you need to use DO more 18:16:29 I don't think that's the lesson here 18:16:42 dlowe: are you going to the meeting monday? 18:16:53 though I must admit, I didn't know that DO was also an implicit TAGBODY 18:17:16 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 18:17:26 The potential for cthuloid levels of insanity is amassing 18:17:35 Xach: I'm going to try and make it 18:17:38 *Xach* too 18:17:43 dlowe: all the DO-foos. 18:18:21 meingbg: i got it fixed, but the fact that macroexpansion is asynchronous and you're doing your insertions on the previous text remains 18:18:45 bdowning_ [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:08 Kickaha` [n=user@bl5-16-89.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:21:10 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- Kickaha [n=user@bl5-16-89.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host157.190-137-190.telecom.net.ar] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@63.107.91.99] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- azanar [n=azanar@dsl231-050-107.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- ineiros_ [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- kooll [n=samson_t@sd-10510.dedibox.fr] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- schmx [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-160-171-119.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 18:21:10 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:42 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 18:21:43 schmx [n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:21:43 -!- bdowning_ is now known as bdowning 18:21:53 stassats`: ok, sounds good. 18:21:55 Tordek [n=tordek@host157.190-137-190.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:21:58 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:12 koollman [n=samson_t@sd-10510.dedibox.fr] has joined #lisp 18:22:34 djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 18:22:44 cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 18:22:51 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-171-119.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:23 stassats`: Now I guess I'll have to try fix that other problem, maybe write some elisp to have it done synchronously instead... 18:24:22 azanar [n=azanar@dsl231-050-107.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:48 -!- slash__ is now known as slash_ 18:25:16 meingbg: i can give you a patch for doing synchronous inlne macroexpansion. 18:25:19 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:25:55 stassats`: That would be great. 18:29:39 fe[nl]ix: pong. I guess the aver should be converted to a (C)ERROR. 18:30:15 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 18:30:21 my mistake. should have used 'debug not :debug :P 18:31:04 ineiros [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 18:31:42 stassats` pasted "hot-patch" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83936 18:31:58 meingbg: just evaluate it 18:32:38 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-224-43.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:34:05 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 18:34:08 jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:36:28 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-54-117.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:39:27 TDT annotated #83932 "Updated Code - can this be better?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83932#1 18:40:12 I updated this code with a refactor that dries it up, but can this be written better? 18:40:30 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit ["leaving"] 18:41:02 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:41:42 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@113.77.29.199] has quit [Success] 18:41:45 <_3b> why not 2 COLLECT clauses instead of the inner progn? 18:41:48 TDT: have git-condition with the slots you need and make the rest inherit, remove macro 18:41:55 TDT: I'd probably use a DEFINE-GIT-COMMAND which (among other things) pushes something into *git-commands* and defines a condition 18:42:35 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:43:08 <_3b> or put the list of names in a variable instead of modifying the defvar in the loop 18:43:36 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-120-49.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:44:02 _3b: Not sure what you mean, I'm not familar with 2 collect options on that. 18:44:29 xristos: Yeah, that's one idea, just one condition and use a slot to define which one..dunno, I don't mind having a separate condition for each. 18:44:37 <_3b> ,(loop ... collect (push ...) collect (define-condition ...)) 18:44:42 <_3b> ,@ rather 18:44:44 no i mean you have a parent condition (git-condition) 18:44:57 which the slot text and reader there 18:45:06 and all the rest as separate conditions that inherit from the parent 18:45:12 xristos: Ah, I see, that would make it much cleaner, I agree. 18:45:19 <_3b> but (def () (let ((foo '(:pull ...))) `(progn (defvar ,foo)) (loop for k in foo ...))) would be better than 2x collect 18:45:54 <_3b> well, with some ,@ and parens moved around 18:47:15 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:32 why use a macro there though ? 18:47:47 I think I like a little bit of each of these, gonna refactor this quick to take that in account. 18:47:49 <_3b> actually, append `((push ...) (define-...)) might be better than COLLECT x2, but not as good as the LET version 18:47:57 you are hiding the definitions and make it harder to document each condition 18:48:10 and you gain a few lines at best 18:49:53 -!- pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 18:50:25 stassats`: Works perfectly, thanks! 18:52:43 xristos: Right now there's only a few commands defined, but git supports something like 150 commands, defining each would be a headache when the pattern is similar, at least for the conditions. 18:53:13 cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has joined #lisp 18:53:13 -!- stuart71 [n=user@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:53:19 do you really need to have that many separate conditions ? 18:53:26 i don't know 18:53:37 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 18:54:07 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:26 xristos: Dunno, probably not necessary - kinda been what I was going with for ease of writing unit tests..but I don't know for sure. 18:55:33 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:56:45 i can imagine a block of code using a combination of those commands and suddenly you are dealing with tens of conditions? 18:59:31 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-82-169.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:02:34 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:02:59 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:04:24 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:05:43 -!- mcspiff [n=user@DC7CB.WPA.Dal.Ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:07:06 jedahu [n=jdh@ip-118-90-52-64.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:09:20 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-6-208.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:09:26 piso [n=chatzill@c-71-197-72-155.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:03 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@113.77.29.199] has joined #lisp 19:11:17 benny` [n=benny@i577A1FF0.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:11:20 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-54-219.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:11:33 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1FF0.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:12:01 Is there some way I can configure an sbcl build to get the equivalent of a --dynamic-space-size argument? 19:12:34 My builds are failing with the mmap error when SBCL tries to grab 8GB of memory (at least I believe that's what's going on...) 19:14:31 probably, but why don't you just change the config on the host you're building sbcl on? :) 19:14:52 rpg: sure, sh make-sh 'sbcl --d-s-s 512' 19:15:06 *.sh 19:15:12 pkhuong: thanks! 19:15:32 pkhuong: won't that only change the bootstrap compiler's invocation? 19:15:40 foom: Allow me to expose my ignorance by saying I don't know what you mean by "change the config". 19:15:53 rpg: cat /proc/sys/vm/overcommit_memory 19:16:04 foom: ISTR that being enough for some people. 19:16:07 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-54-117.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 19:16:24 rpg: it's probably not 0, so then, echo 0 > /proc/sys/vm/overcommit_memory 19:16:45 foom: I just finished changing that to 1 because of some debian sbcl notes! 19:17:22 xristos: Yeah, you may be correct - it's something I'll have to look into. For now, just learning how to use macros better..heh, it's kinda complicated learning this well. 19:17:50 rpg: oh, 1 is fine too. :) 19:18:07 pkhuong`: I don't think that's it --- I set the SBCL_XC_HOST to have the --dynamic-space-size option, but that just got me through to phase 2 when (I believe) we use the freshly-built SBCL and when that runs, I get the out of memory error. 19:18:11 2 is bad, though. 19:18:26 foom: It's not fine enough ;-) --- I get the out of memory error. 19:18:40 What happens is that I get the out of memory error now when running make-target-2. 19:18:44 TDT annotated #83932 "try #3" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83932#2 19:18:58 rpg: that's odd. What distro/version are you using? 19:18:59 mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068214218.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:02 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@113.77.29.199] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:19:05 foom: OpenSUSE 19:19:05 -!- benny` is now known as benny 19:19:19 kernel ver? 19:19:22 foom: x86_64 19:19:39 -!- rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 19:20:53 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:21:02 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:21:39 I updated the code with ideas from each person who posted before. This look a little better? 19:24:54 jao [n=jao@187.Red-83-50-68.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:41 is there an example anywhere of how slotd subclassing works in the MOP? 19:26:25 right, so i think i have log5 working better now 19:27:36 michaelw annotated #83932 "simpler" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83932#3 19:29:01 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:29:01 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 19:29:04 francisco [n=fhc@81.193.91.223] has joined #lisp 19:31:01 -!- jedahu [n=jdh@ip-118-90-52-64.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has left #lisp 19:31:34 benny` [n=benny@i577A134A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:32:45 -!- francisco [n=fhc@81.193.91.223] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:35:29 sykopomp, the direct-slot --> effective-slot stuff or way of "communicating" through a special variable is kinda dumb; http://nostdal.org/lnostdal/programming/lisp/sw-mvc/src/meta-class.lisp .. but i haven't found another way to do stuff like that 19:36:00 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.22] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:37:17 sykopomp, it adds support for a :CELLP arg. to the slot-definition forms(?) .. so you can say stuff like (defclass test () ((x :cellp t)) (:metaclass mvc-class)) 19:38:25 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 19:38:32 lnostdal: aha. Thanks! 19:39:27 mjf [n=mjf@r2r38.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 19:39:44 francisco [n=fhc@bl4-91-223.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:40:33 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 19:40:40 -!- francisco [n=fhc@bl4-91-223.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 19:40:49 francisco [n=fhc@81.193.91.223] has joined #lisp 19:41:07 sykopomp: see also my ROFL lib, which is in clbuild under relational-objects-for-lisp 19:41:24 drewc: ty 19:41:53 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:43:03 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 19:43:06 sykopomp: more important, read AMOP :) 19:43:23 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1FF0.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:46:02 drewc: I have. I'm more trying to see solid examples, since in AMOP you either get the oftentimes lacking Closette example, or you get the straight-up definitions of the 2nd section. 19:46:10 so I wanted to see how it's actually used. 19:46:28 sykopomp: IMO, the best MOP use i've ever seen is in ContextL 19:46:31 plus, does closette even have slotds? 19:46:51 drewc: ContextL is pretty cool :) 19:47:11 I kinda want to try and implement it on top of sheeple. That would be pretty interesting. 19:48:21 sykopomp: LoL uses a lot of mop too, but it's a little to involved to serve as a good example. 19:48:37 drewc: how's LoL going, by the way? 19:49:10 same as it always goes really... it's fairly mature at this point. 19:49:54 is it relatively easy to set up and get started with? 19:50:28 setup is easy, getting started not-so... there is very little documentation, and the concepts really require some. 19:50:59 sykopomp: having said that, i've held the hand of anyone who was interested, so if you want to use it i'm willing to tell you how :) 19:51:26 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:51:41 drewc: What is the current status of CLtL3? Is there some kind of draft, proposals, or similar? 19:51:54 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest8541 19:51:55 minion: LoL 19:51:56 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``LoL''. 19:51:56 drewc: I'm interested, actually. It'll probably be a bit until I'm able to kind of take a detour from what I'm doing, but I certainly want to at least play with it. 19:52:03 minion: lisp on lines 19:52:04 i like lisp... i'm written in it 19:52:07 :| 19:52:14 Ah, thanks 19:52:15 minion: lisp-on-lines? 19:52:16 lisp-on-lines: Lisp-on-lines is a web application framework built on top of ContextL and UCW and provides a unique declarative application development model. http://www.cliki.net/lisp-on-lines 19:53:14 When I saw LoL, all I could think of was Let Over Lambda. 19:53:35 You're dating yourself. 19:53:47 serichsen: i'm currently working on the draft charter and portable environments, fe[nl]ix is working on pathnames, and we're collectively working on gathering relative libraries. 19:53:59 relevant 19:54:30 tmh: I was here first ;) 19:54:57 tmh: Let Over Lambda is much more jelly, opting to have all letters in the acronym capitalized (LOL), Lisp-on-Lines, on the other hand, is a more serious project, with strong humor only around the edges (LoL) 19:55:04 s/jelly/jolly/ 19:55:34 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 19:55:41 drewc: I'm sure, I had heard of lisp-on-lines some time ago, but I'm not a web guy, so it really isn't on my radar screen. 19:55:46 -!- piso [n=chatzill@c-71-197-72-155.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:56:34 drewc: Although, in the not too distant future I'm going to slap up a website for my little company, so I may look at it then. 19:56:54 drewc: so, cltl3 is (succ (succ CLRFI))? :) 19:57:39 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslex120.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:58:39 piso [n=chatzill@c-71-197-72-155.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:01 -!- piso [n=chatzill@c-71-197-72-155.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:59:08 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:59:18 michaelw: I suppose so 20:00:04 btw, the file-path library now passes all its tests(not many, I admit) 20:00:08 anyone care to try it ? 20:00:28 what's wrong with CDRs? (besides not enough people reading or implementing them?) 20:01:09 lispm [n=joswig@f054052006.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:01:10 michaelw: nothing at all... but the CDR process has no goal of producing anything. 20:01:18 besides CDR's of course 20:01:27 -!- Kickaha` [n=user@bl5-16-89.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:01:53 you could still piggy-back on it, though 20:03:30 hrm, i'm having difficulty specifying a custom package location for the few items i've put into separate files. works fine using require and giving it a filename with a relative path, but moving breaks things. 20:03:33 well there are upteenth time representations. For instance the US has the deranged idea of presenting a date as month,day,year. (randomizing the order..) 20:04:52 michaelw: we'll look at CDR's for inspiration certainly, but we're going for something a little more streamlined when it comes to processes. 20:04:59 sorry, that was way back in my buffer, please disregard it 20:05:06 jthing: i do that all the time. 20:05:14 jthing: yep, its deranged. 20:05:15 Demosthenex: don't do that, use ASDF 20:05:27 drewc: i can use asdf on local packages? 20:05:55 *ponder* i guess i'll go delve into its docs. i figured SBCL had a lib path env var, but hadn't seen one 20:05:59 Demosthenex: that doesn't make much sense... ASDF is a systems definition tool, like "make" for C.... 20:06:13 drewc: hey, i'm still new to this ;] 20:06:14 what is CDR in this context? 20:06:17 Demosthenex: 'packages' are lisp namespaces 20:06:20 minion: CDR? 20:06:21 CDR: The Common Lisp Document Repository is hosted at http://cdr.eurolisp.org. http://www.cliki.net/CDR 20:06:22 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.7.237] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:06:37 -!- bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Adios"] 20:06:40 thanks 20:07:07 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 20:07:11 Demosthenex: Xach has a great post about getting started with ASDF.. let me see if i can find a URL 20:07:33 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 20:07:35 http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 20:07:40 http://l1sp.org/xach/project-howto 20:07:55 *Xach* can never remember the supposedly easier-to-remember l1sp url 20:09:00 Xach: alias it to ? :) 20:09:07 Xach: needs a cliki page so minion can remember for us :) 20:09:53 under what key? 20:09:59 l1sp 20:10:27 Xach: i like 'project-howto' 20:10:29 -!- mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068214218.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:10:35 or something like that 20:10:38 lispm: i remember the l1sp part, but not the project-howto part... 20:10:54 you are recursively lost 20:10:57 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:02 *Xach* is educated stupid 20:11:06 minion: xach-asdf 20:11:06 xach-asdf: Xach's article "Making a small Common Lisp project" can be found at http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 20:11:08 it can be garbage collected, no pointer left 20:11:20 lichtblau: perfect! 20:11:28 so perfect, nobody remembers it either 20:11:40 *drewc* will remember 20:12:04 simple 20:12:17 name it 'the-page-xach-does-not-remember' 20:12:30 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:44 that won't help either, presumably 20:13:14 why, not? he could ask minion for the pages he does not remember 20:14:08 InterLisp had DWIM (do what I mean) 20:14:23 it would do speeling correction of Lisp code, etc. 20:14:44 why should minion fall behind> 20:14:53 i wonder how useful it was 20:15:06 (me too) 20:16:06 the function ME is undefined 20:16:36 you should not eval it, just READ ir 20:16:37 it 20:16:48 then quote it ;o) 20:17:11 citing yourself? huh 20:17:18 lol 20:17:34 '(no, not LoL) 20:18:12 that joke is too old 20:18:55 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:19:04 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 20:19:11 guille_ [n=user@237.Red-83-43-152.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:15 hi 20:19:23 ben 20:19:25 wow 20:19:27 hello guille_ 20:19:49 (whois benny` 20:20:06 I was typing hello and made a typo and was to hit backspace, but I hit enter. 20:20:07 too many S-expression 20:20:14 You can be benny if you like. 20:20:43 hl => bn real easy. 20:20:58 kind of funny who is learning clojure 20:21:18 who? 20:21:24 I read a article about some old guys learning clojure and trying Test Driven Development 20:21:45 there was a function (defun make-game () ()) 20:21:56 in Clojure though 20:22:13 the guy was really testing that (make-game) is successful 20:22:37 okflo [n=user@91-115-94-88.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:23:15 (deftest ... (eq () (make-game)) or so 20:23:43 guille_ pasted "Macro-trouble" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83944 20:23:44 -!- benny` is now known as benny 20:25:11 in that macro ^, i can't find a way to let execute @body later, not sure if that makes sense but it tries to evaluate the body after being evaluated; not sure if that makes sense neither 20:25:35 what is (unless var-name board var-name) 20:26:06 stassats`: Thanks for the hot-fix, it really helped me out. 20:26:39 lispm: i've a parameter that i'd like to shadow by default "*board*", but you can pass an arg. so it won't shadow but assign to a new name 20:27:05 and how should this work? 20:27:22 meingbg: you're welcome 20:27:47 UNLESS condition body0 ... bodyn 20:28:08 not like IF 20:28:36 do you know about MACROEXPAND ? 20:29:11 You should write example code that uses your macro and macroexpand it, PPRINT pretty prints it 20:29:16 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:29:19 guille_: I think you might be missing some single quotes for *board* and var-name. Like in '*board* and ~',var-name. But I'm not sure. 20:29:29 then you can see if the expansion is something you like 20:30:08 (if varname varname '\*board\*) 20:30:16 without the backslash 20:32:34 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:33:54 kiuma_ [n=kiuma@93-36-11-128.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 20:36:09 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 20:36:51 -!- ahaas_ is now known as ahaas 20:36:53 guille_: a good technique for WITH-* style macros is to first make a FUNCALL-WITH function that you pass a lambda to, and then base your macro on that. 20:36:55 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:37:04 guille_: you may even find that you don't need the macro at all ;) 20:37:32 (my LAMBDA-phobia faded after few years) 20:38:19 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:39:23 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@e179125184.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 20:39:37 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [] 20:39:47 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:54 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:40:41 rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:25 serichsen annotated #83944 "perhaps you mean something like this?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83944#1 20:46:21 bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:46:30 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 20:49:28 -!- X-Scale2 is now known as TR2N 20:49:28 -!- bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:52:33 serichsen: yes it's. thanks 20:52:50 *guille_* is searching the difference between '~ and ', in macros 20:54:25 ~ ? 20:54:37 backtick 20:55:00 ~ doesn't look like a backtick 20:55:20 ~ <- shift+` 20:55:27 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:55:48 let me see: backtick ` --- tick ' --- tilde ~ 20:55:54 on some keyboard layouts... 20:56:28 that looked alright. I guess it is a typo. 20:56:41 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 20:56:44 clhs ` 20:56:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm 20:56:55 then, no need for searching 20:57:12 *tmh* debates killing a thread on c.l.l. 20:58:02 -!- rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:58:46 jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 20:59:03 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 20:59:15 I always struggle with that, the 'Really dumb LISP question' thread has become the trolls hang-out of the week. My first reaction is to kill that thread, but I'm always a little restrained doing that on the chance that I'll miss the one in a million intelligent post that makes c.l.l. worth reading. 20:59:57 kill c.l.l 21:00:02 tmh: the threads with the most trolling also seem to contain to most gems. 21:00:51 tmh: it's a trade-off. I still read/skim almost every article in c.l.l.. save for those from authors in my killfile. 21:01:22 well, I like some of the british humor 21:01:38 Q: > Why do you use Eclipse, if you are allegedly more productive in Emacs? 21:01:49 Tim BRadshaw: Why do I wear a tie to work? 21:02:00 lispm: i got a chuckle out of that one too :) 21:02:01 -!- mqt [n=tran@c-66-41-46-222.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:02:12 That's what I don't want to miss. :-) 21:02:57 tmh: i also enjoy some of the trolling/ignorance ... sometimes a good dose of anger is just the thing i need to be prodctive :) 21:03:15 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:04:08 and the occasional bat-shit-insane poster always provides entertainment. 21:04:54 I will sacrifice a chicken when Google News gets filters 21:05:00 -!- kiuma_ [n=kiuma@93-36-11-128.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:05:11 I wish they despamulated their RSS feeds 21:05:48 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:05:49 is macrolet expanded at compile time as well as other macros? 21:05:51 At least that isn't per-user. 21:05:57 (optimization question again) 21:06:06 bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:06:09 I try to use GNUS every other year with its scoring, for one or two days :-( 21:06:19 meingbg: how would it work otherwise? 21:06:29 lispm: i'm a gnus-er 21:06:47 drewc: I don't mind the trolls that stick to lisp, it's a particularly recent troll that seems to be using lisp for some sad form of social interaction that is getting tiresome. 21:06:57 *stassats`* uses gnus and is far from satisfaction 21:06:59 lispm: i know the bare minimum to get by, but i like how it integrates with org-mode 21:07:11 drewc: run time? 21:07:14 drewc: hardcore linux user with stumpwm and GNU Emacs? 21:07:37 lispm: T 21:07:39 drewc: extra points if you read your mail with gnus 21:07:48 lispm: no, i use Mew for that :) 21:07:57 Maybe I should accept that I'm working in a very high-level language and just stop worrying about optimization. 21:08:04 drewc: which Linux distro do you use with stumpwm? 21:08:23 worry about optimization when you need them 21:08:25 Adlai: debian, of course... anything else is insanity. 21:08:33 *Adlai* just finished creating a new partition for some new distro -- Ubuntu + stumpwm = fail. 21:08:35 s/ion/ions/ 21:08:36 meingbg: ding-ding-ding We have a winner! 21:08:37 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:08:37 -!- Guest8541 [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:08:39 drewc: is Mew part of the Emacs distribution, or do you have to install it? 21:08:50 *stassats`* uses stumpwm on Slackware 21:09:01 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 21:09:04 hmm, I use stumpwm on gentoo, too 21:09:09 tmh: heh 21:09:13 lispm: it's a separate install: see www.mew.org 21:09:24 drewc: bonus points! 21:09:27 *Adlai* is about to install Arch. (y-or-n-p) 21:10:16 drewc: when you ever manage to visit Hamburg Germany, make sure you present your setup to the local Lisp user group 21:10:29 *stassats`* is too old for jumping from distro to distro 21:10:30 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-171-119.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:10:50 *Adlai* is embarking upon his 56th day of Linux. 21:11:09 lispm: actually, i've been thinking of doing a presentation for the vancouver group on just that.... and we usually record them.. so no need to travel! :) 21:11:44 Adlai: 14 years now :) 21:12:09 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has left #lisp 21:12:10 2009 - 14 = nice! 21:12:34 drewc: do you have a beard? 21:12:37 well, 15 or 16 if you count my early use through my ISP at the time... but 14 on the desktop 21:12:45 stassats`: sometimes.... like right now. 21:12:50 -!- lispm [n=joswig@f054052006.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:13:01 I'm glad to say though that my new computer has spent probably a grand total of 45 minutes on Windows. 21:13:17 drewc: then you could be a hardcore hacker 21:13:33 Once I made sure that the hardware worked, I got out the fresh new Ubuntu live CD. 21:13:36 lispm [n=joswig@f054052006.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:13:39 stassats`: that's a possibility i'm willing to entertain :) 21:13:47 anyways, I need to install my new distro. Stumpwm fails on Ubuntu. 21:14:12 See you all in a bit (I hope). 21:14:13 drewc: why mew? any special features? 21:14:21 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["GAME TIME!"] 21:14:21 how? don't tell me you are using packages from ubuntu 21:14:38 lispm: i was using wander for a bit, and i'm trying out Mew.. mostly because gnus stinks at imap 21:14:56 s/wander/wanderer 21:15:24 I recently learned that imap is Lispy 21:15:29 wanderlust? 21:15:39 lispm: ...??? 21:15:40 lispm: and the special features is integration with org-mode..... link to emails etc 21:15:44 stassats`: yea.. that's the one 21:16:28 imap was develop with a TOPS-20 server (that's a DEC mini computer) and a Xerox Lisp Machine as client 21:16:33 developed 21:16:41 lispm: imap has crazy syntax, and crazy semantics, and is woefully inadequate for mail access. I don't think you want it associated with lisp. :) 21:17:01 -!- bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:17:18 the code 21:17:19 http://ftp.zcu.cz/pub/network/imap/historical/interlisp/imap2 21:17:22 bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:17:25 TDT` [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has joined #lisp 21:17:44 smtp in Interlisp 21:17:45 http://ftp.zcu.cz/pub/network/imap/historical/interlisp/smtp 21:18:32 lispm: did you use zmail? 21:18:39 yes 21:18:39 -!- ivan-kanis [n=user@if02t2-89-83-137-164.d4.club-internet.fr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:18:51 is more comprehensible than gnus? 21:18:54 is it 21:19:17 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-79-16.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:19:39 Kickaha [n=user@60.17.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:20:36 i fear it is as comprehensible as Gnus, but in a different way 21:20:49 http://lispm.dyndns.org/symbolics-screenshots/zmail.jpg 21:20:52 -!- moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:24:15 it has a funky picture in the manual about its architecture 21:24:27 then you know that it is strange 21:25:33 messages, mail buffers (named groups of messages), mail collections (named groups of messages drawn from one or more mail buffers), mail sequences (buffers and collections), mail files, inboxes, ... 21:26:28 reading emails is seemingly such a simple activity 21:26:35 -!- bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:26:40 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 21:27:22 never underestimate the ability of a lisper to turn something simple into something complicated. 21:28:05 IMAP is about 100x more complicated than it needs to be. 21:28:16 http://lispm.dyndns.org/lisp/pics/zmail-explanation.png 21:28:23 zmail 21:28:42 impressive 21:28:46 I could stare on that picture all day 21:29:06 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.93.32] has joined #lisp 21:31:04 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:31:32 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest50241 21:31:52 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:33:01 there is really old stuff in zmail, funky stuff 21:33:03 http://lispm.dyndns.org/lisp/pics/zmail-filter.png 21:33:17 you get a dialog to build Lisp filter expressions 21:33:54 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:37:37 windows7_yow [i=d11f2105@gateway/web/freenode/x-e066ce2f00b613d0] has joined #lisp 21:38:09 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:39:29 moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 21:39:50 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:57 A have a macro that produces code, that in turn produces the code I want. Would it be good style to use eval herefh 21:41:06 s/herefh/here? 21:41:14 for waht? 21:42:54 guille_` [n=user@237.Red-83-43-152.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:02 I have (defmacro wtv (a b) (form...)). the (form) returns code that needs to be evaluated in order to produce the correct code. Is it bad style to do (defmacro wtv (a b) (eval (form...)))? 21:43:19 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-111.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:46 Is there a reason I don't get the buffer with Warnings/Notes/etc. in SLIME when using CCL? 21:43:52 But I do when using SBCL? 21:44:01 On a PPC OS X box FWIW. 21:44:21 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.93.32] has quit [] 21:45:07 meingbg: you generate code that gets executed and return new code that... 21:45:09 ? 21:45:40 that is supposed o be compiled and executed at run time. 21:45:44 you probably want something simpler - typically this is not a good idea because of maintenance 21:46:06 problems 21:46:14 hmm... 21:46:37 gigamonkey: Maybe the CCL compiler is just quieter? 21:47:04 gigamonkey: you're doing it wrong, n00b 21:47:06 oh wait 21:47:42 gigamonkey: what is the name of that buffer in case of sbcl? 21:48:02 well the whole mac thing...... 21:48:16 Krystof: after two years on Coders at Work I feel like a n00b again. 21:48:33 best place to be at . always white belt. 21:48:53 nyef: well, it emits warnigs which SLIME tells me about in the minibuffer. It just doesn't pop up that other buffer. 21:48:55 gigamonkey: stop comparing yourself to Knuth already 21:49:11 eh? 21:49:18 pkhuong`, foom: thanks for trying to help me earlier today. Somehow my IRC client lost connection with this group at just the wrong moment... 21:49:32 stassats`: hang on, I'll see. 21:50:46 gigamonkey: everyone is a n00b compared with Knuth 21:50:58 did you know that Guy Steele is largely responsible for TeX being Turing-complete? 21:50:58 it is usually something like "*sldb sbcl/1*" 21:51:02 Ah, I see. Yes. 21:51:18 serichsen: that's a debugger 21:51:22 Steele claimed that. Knuth couldn't remember if it was Steele or Lamport or another guy whose name escapes me. 21:51:35 -!- meingbg_ [n=user@static-195.84.249.117.addr.tdcsong.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:51:40 stassats`: perhaps I misunderstood the question 21:51:45 meingbg_ [n=user@static-195.84.249.117.addr.tdcsong.se] has joined #lisp 21:51:51 stassats`: ah yes, ok 21:52:48 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 21:52:53 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:53:22 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 21:53:45 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-54-117.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:53:48 what turing completeness 21:53:52 got to do with anything 21:54:48 stassats`: *SLIME Compiler-Notes* 21:55:01 gigamonkey: bah, you and your talking to primary evidence 21:55:08 I get all my information from Wikipedia 21:55:24 -!- lispm [n=joswig@f054052006.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:55:37 macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:55:39 Steele also claimed to never have heard of the idea that packages are discussed in Chapter 11 of CLTL because they're bankrupt. 21:55:46 \expandafter is TeX's version of QUOTE, so I believe that it's got a Lisp heritage 21:55:58 (and it's \expandafter that gives TeX Turing-completeness, I believe) 21:56:19 what big programs has steele created that many use today? 21:56:20 But the other night at a Bay Area Lisp meetup, Steven Haflich said the ANSI committee specifically asked Kent Pitman to keep packages in Chapter 11, if possible. 21:56:24 gigamonkey: it lists not all notes, just ones it decides are important, i guess these decisions are different between SBCL and CCL 21:56:35 windows7_yow: Emacs. (Arguably) 21:56:56 windows7_yow: Scheme. 21:56:56 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:57:02 windows7_yow: Java 21:57:05 windows7_yow: Common Lisp. 21:57:10 (by default), but you can tell to show compiler notes always 21:57:21 stassats`: how? 21:57:45 (add-hook 'slime-compilation-finished-hook 'slime-list-compiler-notes) 21:57:53 Admittedly, it's been a while since Steele was primarily a coder. 21:58:08 bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:58:12 stassats`: and is there a way to make it never pop up? 21:58:12 hope it'll work in older versions of slime 21:58:54 use newer slime, this feature is disabled now by default 21:58:54 -!- guille_ [n=user@237.Red-83-43-152.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:59:08 *gigamonkey* didn't even know he was kicking it old school 21:59:20 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:59:34 what is biggest scheme app ever in production? 21:59:37 -!- bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:59:57 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-120-49.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:00:03 you should annoy #scheme instead 22:00:32 Wasn't the CGI stuff they used to do Gollumn in the Lord of the Rings movies written in Scheme (or was it CL?) 22:01:23 gigamonkey: you could try (remove-hook 'slime-compilation-finished-hook 'slime-maybe-list-compiler-notes) but i'm not really sure it'll work 22:01:47 bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 22:03:23 -!- Edico [n=Dezlagra@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:03:39 stassats`: thanks. 22:04:42 gigamonkey: Mirai? That's CL. 22:05:30 -!- francisco [n=fhc@81.193.91.223] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:05:40 yeah, but no-one saw that film 22:05:58 lispm: The application is this: a macro takes a few arguments including a body. This body is code-producing code, like a macro body. The macro encloses the body in a flet so it can produce code. This code is supposed to be evaluated again before compilation. Since eval is using the null lexical environmen, I'm looking for another solution. 22:06:44 who was that tolkien guy anyway 22:06:56 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:07:15 antifuchs: I don't think tolkein wrote any lisp 22:07:18 -!- guille_` [n=user@237.Red-83-43-152.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:08:01 |aaa| [n=poster13@c83-251-39-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:08:24 maybe some of the orks had speech impediments. 22:08:32 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:08:54 "orc", damned made-up words 22:09:09 he really shouldn't have made this a movie. nobody knows how to spell half the stuff in there. 22:09:17 story would have been much better as a book, imo 22:09:25 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has left #lisp 22:09:44 Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:10:06 BrentRitterbeck_ [n=brent@216.143.219.17] has joined #lisp 22:10:36 also, those movies were way too long. 22:10:53 -!- BrentRitterbeck_ [n=brent@216.143.219.17] has quit [Client Quit] 22:11:16 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:43 luis: yeah, bouncing hobbits 22:11:50 froog [n=user@90-224-38-87-no94.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 22:11:50 lispm [n=joswig@f054052006.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:14:55 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r2r38.net.upc.cz] has quit [""GNU is *INDEED* NO UNIX!""] 22:15:33 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:35 WaGE [n=WaGE@pool-70-23-80-81.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:46 -!- |aaa| [n=poster13@c83-251-39-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:16:01 |aaa| [n=poster13@c83-251-39-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:16:41 -!- mscala [n=user@75.110.164.231] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:18:31 I don't get it. And Google is not helping me out. 22:19:36 I suspect I'm failing at another geekness test, though. ;) 22:21:12 -!- |aaa| [n=poster13@c83-251-39-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:22:03 |aaa| [n=poster13@c83-251-39-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:22:34 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 22:26:37 -!- Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:27:10 -!- |aaa| [n=poster13@c83-251-39-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:27:25 |aaa| [n=poster13@c83-251-39-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:28:02 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:28:08 lnostdal: around? 22:28:12 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:12 luis, T 22:31:43 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.192.84] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:33:48 Is there an easy way to make Hunchentoot serve a directory *and* do the default to index.html thing? 22:36:11 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 22:37:39 -!- |aaa| [n=poster13@c83-251-39-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:39:54 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:42:07 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 22:43:19 -!- lispm [n=joswig@f054052006.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:43:38 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-79-16.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:44:28 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-15-28.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 22:45:42 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:49:30 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-54-219.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:55:45 aircastle [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:56:38 -!- macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["cripes, is that the time?"] 22:58:54 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has joined #lisp 22:59:05 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 23:00:29 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:00:47 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has joined #lisp 23:01:56 Is it possible to pass a --dynamic-space-size argument to sbcl when it runs in a shebang script? 23:02:09 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 23:02:30 through a wrapper script? 23:03:23 -!- okflo [n=user@91-115-94-88.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:03:33 stassats`: Yes. seems like #! /usr/local/bin/sbcl --dynamic-space-size 5400 -script doesn't work... 23:03:51 because of shell 23:03:57 no, because of kernel 23:04:00 (Actually, what I'd most like is to make SBCL always use that value of dss...) 23:04:12 linux kernel only supports a single argument in shebang line. 23:04:19 well, not because of sbcl 23:04:40 (some bsd kernels split on whitespace, but have no escaping mechanism, which is just about as bad) 23:04:46 For reasons mysterious to me, sbcl blows up with memory error without a -dss argument. 23:05:14 rpg: use #!/usr/bin/env sbcl --dynamic... 23:05:24 Why not create a script and use that name in the shebang? 23:05:42 meingbg: I am not the only one who uses the script. Others have machines w/o this pathology. 23:06:56 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 23:07:21 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 23:07:56 Is there a way to tell sbcl always to use that dynamic-space-size? Seems like there might be if I more deeply understood the building process... 23:07:57 do you have overcommit disabled? 23:08:19 rpg: hmm... and I guess it's not possible to set the dynamic space size from inside lisp... maybe you could find out the dynamic space size and execute yourself correctly. Or just include your script when you deploy. 23:08:23 stassats`: Have tried with overcommit = 0 and overcommit = 1, and neither seems to make any difference. 23:09:04 stassats`: I found one other mention of this on the OpenSUSE mailing lists as a problem, but no one answered the poster. 23:09:08 rpg: you can set the default dynamic space size when you compile SBCL 23:09:17 rpg: don't know if that helps ou 23:09:23 you 23:09:35 drewc: Oh, good! I figured that was possible, but I didn't know how. I think that would solve my problem handily. 23:10:04 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:10:14 drewc: This is very odd; I've never had any trouble compiling SBCL on linux before. 23:10:53 rpg: it's blowing the heap trying to compile sbcl? 23:10:53 rpg: it might be interesting to get the memory map of the process before it quits 23:10:55 rpg: along with the exact error message 23:12:07 Adlai` [n=user@c-69-181-142-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:11 drewc: It blew up with this error compiling sbcl: 23:13:27 [oh, kill me now -- the vnc client doesn't support copy....] 23:13:54 rpg: there is some special sequence of keys to get copy/paste working IIRC 23:14:02 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:14:05 f8? 23:14:12 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:14:15 (it's been a long time since i vnc'd) 23:14:35 drewc: I'll copy it. This seems to be an X problem. If I do this in an emacs shell, I think it works... 23:14:51 -!- moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:15:03 rpg pasted "Errors running SBCL on OpenSUSE" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83961 23:15:30 *rpg* says a prayer of thanksgiving for emacs... 23:16:12 so, perhaps you can run gdb --args sbcl --dynamic-space-size 23:16:14 drewc: So I painstakingly smashed "--dynamic-space-size xxxx" into all the sbcl build scripts and was able to build successfully that way. 23:16:15 set a breakpoint on exit 23:16:25 then "info proc map" 23:16:40 rpg: is that redhat? 23:16:42 perhaps there's something else sitting in the memory map near 0x1000000000 23:17:04 drewc: No, but OpenSUSE is RedHat-like (or at least not Debian-like). 23:17:12 drewc: It's x86_64. 23:17:32 So sbcl seems to want to grab 8Gb out of the starting gate. 23:17:38 rpg: are you building a 64 bit sbcl? 23:17:45 drewc: Yes. 23:18:02 drewc: with an address like 0x1000000000 I should hope so. :) 23:18:04 exp[a] [n=Zerg@83.167.120.155] has joined #lisp 23:18:08 1.0.28 bootstrapped from a downloaded 1.0.28 binary (to get threads). 23:18:10 foom: oh yes, indeed :) 23:18:30 rpg: i've seen this before, but i forget the solution... hold on lemme google 23:18:35 foom: What do you mean by 23:18:59 drewc: I saw something like this, but all I could find was the recommendation to tweak overcommit... 23:19:31 foom: Should I use the value that works for me, or just use nothing to get the error? 23:19:38 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@76.122.37.30] has joined #lisp 23:20:11 drewc, foom: and thank you very much for the assistance. 23:20:18 rpg: i mean something that causes the error 23:20:21 rpg: e.g. 8GB 23:20:26 rpg: what is the value of `cat /proc/sys/kernel/exec-shield` 23:20:36 -!- nerdshark [n=dorkfish@74-131-32-72.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:20:51 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-91681.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 23:20:57 rpg: look at http://git.boinkor.net/gitweb/sbcl.git?a=blob;f=src/compiler/x86-64/parms.lisp;h=9a029779a032e5eb8c921d55d5dceb7eb86798ec;hb=HEAD#l105 23:21:41 try to modify dynamic-space-end 23:21:53 ha! found it. 23:22:13 that'd modify the default heap size, yeah. 23:22:14 rpg: see http://lemonodor.com/archives/2006_11.html .. that's what i remember 23:22:22 drewc: "No such file or directory" 23:23:01 drewc: none of those /should/ be important for x86_64... 23:23:10 on x86 it's a pain in the ass finding a place to map stuff 23:23:21 not to say they aren't. :) 23:23:34 foom: the error message is eerily familiar ;) 23:23:35 but getting the memory map should tell what's up 23:23:52 foom: working on it. Sorry to be slow; I'm not a gdb user. 23:24:56 you only need to know 3 commands: 1) break exit 2) c (for continue) 3) when it breaks after printing the error, info proc map 23:25:12 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:25:34 btw: sanity check: you *don't* have a ulimit do you? :) 23:26:25 rpg annotated #83961 "Memory map" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83961#1 23:26:42 Hope that's the right thing... 23:26:49 foom: I don't believe so. 23:26:50 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:26:59 *rpg* hangs his head in shame 23:27:05 haha. :) 23:27:11 I use tcsh 23:27:16 sorry for asking all the hard questions first! 23:27:38 lol! 23:27:39 foom: I checked limit and vmemspace seems to be 8 Gb. Hang on; will paste. 23:27:46 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 23:28:25 rpg annotated #83961 "limit output" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83961#2 23:28:54 *rpg* is old enough to have used a lispm; he's too old to learn bash... 23:29:15 s/used a lispm/used a lispm for years/ 23:29:33 Drakeson` [n=user@75-119-236-163.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:29:37 I don't believe that the limit is causing the problem. 23:29:41 I bet it is 23:29:49 it's always the oldbies comin' on /w the tcsh. :) 23:29:59 8164400 / 1024. = 7973.046875 23:30:04 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net."] 23:30:10 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:15 all the cool kids are using M-x eshell 23:30:22 I dunno how anyone can use tcsh really. :) 23:30:42 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Client Quit] 23:30:49 is it even maintained anymore? 23:30:54 foom: easy -- if you can't do it in tcsh, do it in perl. 23:31:17 I can actually cargo-cult bash scripts well enough to write a daemon, but I prefer not to. 23:31:31 yeah but zsh (and to a lesser degree bash) have so many nice interaction features. 23:31:54 the configurable completion (well -- heck with configurable -- configurED) for specific commands is wonderful 23:31:59 (incf *zsh*) 23:32:06 tcsh has configurable completion. 23:32:31 without a reasonable scripting language? How's that possible. :) 23:32:32 It's in the t-part that was added to the csh ;-) 23:32:59 -!- Kickaha [n=user@60.17.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:33:02 foom: someday when you want to tempt madness I will show you my hundreds of lines of tcsh completion code. 23:33:21 rpg: someday when you want to go insane, check out the zsh code that implements completions. 23:33:33 rpg: it's all shell scripts, and it's utterly unreadable 23:33:39 does anyone have a link to the (automotivator?) image that was circulating a few months ago featuring this image http://katilifox.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/howls-moving-castle-01_sm.jpg and a caption about common lisp? 23:34:08 I think that's very appropriate to foom's remarks about zsh completion code... 23:34:17 (or my .emacs, for that matter...) 23:34:32 I was happy that half of my .emacs went away when I upgraded to emacs22. 23:34:45 foom: I worry that perhaps the virtual memory size is TOO large. 23:34:58 I.e., I'm not sure i have enough swap. 23:35:24 nobody on emacs23? 23:35:34 stassats`: M-x ansi-term FTW! 23:35:42 moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 23:35:49 I was happy to see a totally useless pdf-reader in emacs23. 23:36:02 rpg: 8164400 is less than 8388544 that sbcl asked for 23:36:08 Dr_Pacheco [n=user7994@187.10.17.28] has joined #lisp 23:36:17 drewc: it doesn't have nice greps, diffs, etc. 23:36:20 rpg: (not to mention the other bits and pieces of stuff that are mapped already) 23:36:28 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 23:36:38 stassats`: M-x grep, M-x diff .... 23:37:24 stassats`: i suppose i'll give eshell a try though... 23:37:31 it's faster from the shell 23:37:32 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 23:37:55 meingbg: i use emacs23, why? 23:39:16 just wondering. 23:39:26 i'm also using emacs23 23:39:55 now I want to know what the automotivator caption for that image was. 23:39:59 there should be a release soon 23:40:14 I was happy about the pdf reader until I realized it cached the whole thing as tiff, blowing away both cpu and hd. 23:40:29 wow, that is useless 23:40:46 i remember it caching as pngs 23:41:07 so useless it's practically harmful... 23:41:46 now, if it extracted the text from the pdf and displayed it in a regular buffer, that'd be awesome. 23:42:12 Fade: i think it was something like 'common lisp: kitchen sink included', but cleverer 23:42:13 eh, also rather useless (to me); the formatting is essential. 23:42:32 I can see how someone might find that interesting though 23:42:42 and saving formatting 23:42:48 i'm almost always more interested in the text than in the formatting, or graphics. 23:42:51 now, that's a challenge 23:43:02 I have a program that does that, it's called kpdg 23:43:05 kpdf, even 23:43:14 it even handles the table of contents (wow!) 23:43:16 does it run in Emacs? 23:43:25 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:43:38 -!- Drakeson [n=user@69-196-191-139.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Success] 23:43:46 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-127.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:44:08 web browsing and pdf reading force me to get out of emacs 23:44:12 M-x comint-run kpdf ? :) 23:44:53 I'm sure with appropriate invocation of magic you can get kpdf to stuff itself as a subframe of the emacs window. mozplugger does that for mozilla, afterall. 23:45:09 foom: so is it possible to configure SBCL to ask for less? By modifying dynamic-space-end, say? 23:45:15 rpg: yes 23:45:17 rpg: that will work 23:45:32 foom: so modify that constant and rebuild, right? 23:45:40 rpg: right 23:46:11 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 23:46:21 I wonder where that vmemoryuse came from and whether it wouldn't be easier to just add more swap... 23:46:36 i don't think swap is relevant 23:46:41 you need to get rid of your ulimit 23:46:46 that's all there is to it 23:46:58 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-54-117.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 23:47:05 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:48:00 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:48:37 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-69-5.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 23:49:02 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:49:41 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 23:49:46 foom: OMG, that did it. 23:49:52 unlimit vmemorysize 23:50:07 -!- konr [n=konrad@189.98.85.94] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:50:13 Now I need to figure out what bit of etc or something imposed that limit. 23:50:48 rpg: yup. :) 23:51:16 foom: for now an "unlimit vmemorysize" in .tcshrc will save the day. 23:51:30 foom: I can't express how grateful I am. 23:52:42 changing linux distros is filled with exciting adventures. 23:54:14 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:57:16 rpg: http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_is_the_best 23:57:48 drafael: This is not a free choice. OpenSUSE is the delivery platform for this project... 23:58:02 -!- metawilm__ [n=willem@e179146190.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 23:58:04 oh :( 23:59:44 -!- moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]