00:00:31 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.64.33] has quit [] 00:05:03 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 00:07:21 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 00:11:30 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DE98.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:12:13 peddie [n=matthew@67.169.49.37] has joined #lisp 00:12:50 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:13:20 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-67.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 00:13:40 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-67.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 00:15:07 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@113.77.50.27] has joined #lisp 00:24:34 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:24:54 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 00:26:54 Posterdati_ [n=tapioca@host238-8-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 00:27:13 -!- Posterdati [n=tapioca@host108-237-dynamic.20-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:29:55 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 00:31:10 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 00:32:26 rcassidy_ [n=rcassidy@129.10.228.137] has joined #lisp 00:35:02 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@113.77.50.27] has quit [Success] 00:35:37 Good evening, #lisp. I'm new to lisp, but I want to have a stab at it, and see whether lisp is something for me or not. Can anyone recommend a tutorial which demonstrates the basics and gives me some idea where to start? I'm not new to functional programming, but I've never actually touched lisp. 00:36:46 minion: tell whoppix about pcl-book 00:36:46 whoppix: direct your attention towards pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 00:37:12 pkhuong, thanks, very much appreciated. 00:43:13 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250018.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:45:06 whoppix: what platform are you on? 00:45:19 Adlai, linux. 00:45:48 minion: tell whoppix about clbuild 00:45:49 whoppix: please see clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 00:46:10 Thanks again; I'll have a look at it. 00:47:04 whoppix: That's good... there are very good lisp implementations for Windows, but some important other things (such as the system definition facilities) don't work well on Windows 00:47:36 *p_l* will have to finally patch asdf to stop relying on symlinks 00:47:55 Adlai, I'm unsure yet which implementation I should use for starting, my repository offers several. 00:48:07 amongst others clisp 2.47 00:48:15 whoppix: I highly recommend Clozure CL, but many people on #lisp use SBCL 00:49:16 *Xach* likes SBCL on linux very much 00:49:23 Adlai, thanks, I think I'll have a go with sbcl, since I already have that in my repository. I can still find out later wether I prefer other implementations. 00:49:36 whoppix: with clbuild and SBCL, you'd typically only use your distribution's implementation of SBCL to bootstrap the one under clbuild's control. 00:50:04 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:50:18 pkhuong, hm, I see. 00:50:19 * - implementation of 00:50:33 whoppix: on linux, I recommend SBCL, on windows, you can go with clisp (no threads), sbcl (kitten of death), CCL (works but 32bit version doesn't run on x64 windows), ECL (slightly unfriendly to newbies) or one of commercial implementations... 00:50:59 p_l, I don't own any windows copy, though. 00:51:16 p_l: no thread on sbcl/win32 either. 00:51:19 but I'll keep that in mind, in case I want to unit-test some of my programs under windows. 00:51:20 whoppix: what distro are you using ? 00:51:22 whoppix: you should probably use SBCL just because there's so much support for it here on #lisp 00:51:28 fe[nl]ix, archlinux, currently. 00:51:38 whoppix: then go with pacman -S sbcl :) 00:51:47 then install clbuild and slime 00:51:56 p_l, I'm at it :) 00:52:24 jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 00:52:56 whoppix: http://unya.wordpress.com/2009/06/07/linux-common-lisp-quickstart/ <-- short quickstart to getting usable environment (based on archlinux) 00:53:12 p_l, shiny! 00:53:47 -!- rcassidy_ [n=rcassidy@129.10.228.137] has quit [] 00:54:03 thx 00:54:30 gonna need to write one for Windows with CCL, as soon as I get my nt6.1 back to work 00:54:38 *working order 00:54:44 stupid license management 00:55:03 Unfortunately I don't really get along well with emacs, I hope there is some lisp mode for vim. 00:55:16 *Adlai* wonders why, on the PCL page for Lispbox, it doesn't list CCL for Windows 00:55:21 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.226] has joined #lisp 00:55:30 Adlai: it predates CCL for windows 00:55:34 Adlai: CCL/win32 (or ccl at all) postdates lispbox. 00:55:48 tic_ [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:55:57 vim-slimv seems to be what I want. 00:56:13 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:56:39 whoppix: the more obscure your choices the least help you'll get when you're stuck. 00:56:52 whoppix: Lisp got this whole cultural bias towards Emacs (not necessarily GNU Emacs - it's older than that, I think older than vi) 00:57:22 pkhuong, well, how much trouble can I have with an editor :) 00:57:26 and still, SLIME is *the* Lisp "IDE" 00:57:29 whoppix: there are a few, but SLIME is definitely the most powerful Lisp IDE, so unless you *hate* emacs, I'd recommend learning just basic Emacs usage so that you can use SLIME. 00:57:32 whoppix: ... a lot? :) 00:57:41 p_l, yeah, same for erlang. I tried to get used to emacs, but I couldn't get along with it. 00:58:07 Adlai, oh, ok, then I'll have another stab at it. 00:58:51 whoppix: good idea... you don't need to use Emacs for anything else, just SLIME. 00:58:57 I like Emacs, but the CL/Emacs love is not universal. A lot of people prefer the commercial IDEs. Some people prefer no particular IDE -- rob warnock often comments on his setup, and how he makes it productive. 00:59:01 c|mell [n=cmell@x250045.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 00:59:19 -!- gusl [n=a@128.189.187.206] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:00:38 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:01:11 GeneralCody [n=generalc@084202191119.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 01:01:54 Xach: any links? 01:02:27 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:03:10 well, found some on c.l.l 01:03:13 http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=476692 01:03:16 err, that's not it 01:03:20 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/6e91e20f2f371b52 01:03:42 whoppix: that groups.google.com link might be helpful for you. 01:04:26 Xach, thanks, it's on my linklist now. 01:07:33 well, slime seems to work. 01:10:22 whoppix: here's another link to a Lisp tutorial 01:10:48 this one is more of a brief tutorial than a full guide (such as PCL), but it gives you a good quick overview 01:10:57 minion: tell whoppix about casting-spells 01:10:58 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``casting-spells''. 01:11:03 minion: tell whoppix about casting 01:11:03 whoppix: have a look at casting: Casting Spells in Lisp is a tutorial about macros, at http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html 01:11:19 Adlai, is that only about macros or about the language in general? 01:12:20 it's about the language in general, and builds up to macros. 01:12:52 I think it's good for giving you a quick glance at the "core" of Lisp 01:13:10 Adlai, I see, then I think I'll start with that one. 01:13:22 You will want to look at PCL though, to learn about things like the condition system and basic CLOS usage 01:13:37 don't be put off by the cartoon appearance, it's a good basic tutorial. 01:13:50 heh, I like cartoons! 01:14:15 good, so you'll enjoy casting spells... :D 01:15:09 my former gf was a real comic nerd, I guess that left some inprints... :) 01:15:27 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250045.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:17:08 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:25:21 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 01:28:06 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:33:04 chavo_ [n=user@c-76-17-212-158.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:06 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 01:33:59 I'll go catch some sleep, good night everyone, and thanks for the help :) 01:34:12 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit ["Verlassend"] 01:35:01 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 01:37:38 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-76-17-212-158.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:42:41 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:44:17 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 01:46:30 gko [n=Keca@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 01:48:49 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-155-123.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:49:26 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 01:53:25 -!- densem [n=fasteez2@218.217.72-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:53:26 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:50 konr1 [n=konrad@189.96.93.228] has joined #lisp 01:55:51 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:56:25 timchen1` [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 01:56:40 -!- timchen1` is now known as nasloc__ 01:59:01 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 02:00:04 -!- GeneralCody [n=generalc@084202191119.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["#include {->zzzzz....;}"] 02:03:13 -!- blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:08:28 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:08:55 wakeup_vanuber [n=wakeup@koln-4db43a39.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 02:09:03 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:49 -!- wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-4db424ad.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:10:10 blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:48 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:15:09 -!- konr [n=konrad@189.96.124.100] has quit [Success] 02:15:49 -!- dto [n=user@98.118.1.212] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:16:04 ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:44 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:29:39 jan247_ [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 02:29:48 is anyone here using emacs with both viper and slime? 02:31:10 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-226-227.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:45 is there a way to have a lambda function call itself recursively 02:32:16 yes 02:32:41 the simplest way is to use a labels form 02:33:20 clhs labels 02:33:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm 02:34:03 jan247__ [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 02:34:26 this looks like the information i needed but could not find, thank you 02:35:08 it might save me some time if i may ask one more question: is it possible to write a lambda factorial function without defining any macros or functions outside of it...without any additional code, i mean? 02:35:27 yes... it's possibible. 02:35:30 *possible 02:35:46 the way you answered that makes me want to ask: is it also stupid? 02:35:49 hehe 02:35:50 the easiest way is to use a labels form inside the lambda :) 02:35:58 but you can do it without labels 02:36:04 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@70.88.151.157] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:36:18 kpreid [n=kpreid@70.88.151.157] has joined #lisp 02:36:24 labels are a standard part of CL? 02:36:28 yes 02:36:29 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:36:47 to make a recursive anonymous function without labels, you would use the fixed-point "y" combinator 02:37:13 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed_point_combinator 02:38:36 that's all very helpful Adlai - thank you kindly. sometimes i just don't even know what question i'm trying to ask, what to search for etc. i've what i need now, i believe. 02:39:57 isismelting: glad to help :) 02:40:00 actually i'm doing this for wikipedia - the "examples" section demonstrates everything by defining functions, which i think is mildly misleading to someone reading about LISP when they're new to the idea of an interpreted language 02:40:08 section of "LISP" i mean 02:41:56 I think it would be misleading to have an anonymous recursive function of factorial on the examples page for Lisp... that is more of a possibility than something which is done often in real code. 02:45:00 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:54 i was just thinking that, i tend to have a one track mind and get caught on whatever i'm doing. maybe a lambda function that would be called "get-user-first-name-and-greet-them" right after the 'hello world' example of print is more appropriate. 02:47:29 maybe that's not the appropriate thing either. something is missing or in need of correction there, even if that is not it. 02:47:36 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@24.91.154.83] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:48:09 Adlai - do you contribute to/use wikipedia much? 02:48:27 *Adlai* has proudly made one contribution to wikipedia, a while back. 02:48:50 I added a citation when one was needed in some article about a bird species :-/ 02:49:15 darwin'd care 02:49:22 do you like birds 02:49:28 I *use* wikipedia a lot though, mainly just to get the gist of a topic and then browse the external links 02:49:40 jlf` [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-82.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 02:49:55 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:50:07 hm... I was at that page out of curiosity, after googleing a certain bird species. 02:50:30 one of the links in the google results was an appropriate citation, so I added it :D 02:50:40 that's neat, i like that that happens :) 02:51:01 -!- jan247_ [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [No route to host] 02:51:12 yeah, and if 5% of the people using wikipedia do that once a year, 02:51:16 *Adlai* 's head explodes. 02:51:38 *isismelting* takes another head out of the bin and screws it onto Adlai 02:51:52 *isismelting* 's head explodes 02:52:26 adlai - i suppose you may have whimsical interests...send me a random link of interest to you? i need to do something different for at least 15 minutes. 02:52:51 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:06 hehe, you could come chat with sykobot. 02:53:35 sykobot is on #lispgames and #sykosomatic at the moment. 02:54:16 *sykopomp* isn't running the bot right now. 03:12:06 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [] 03:12:17 rouslan [n=Rouslan@pool-70-109-137-208.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:57 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["off"] 03:17:38 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 03:18:00 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:18:03 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:20:36 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:38 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-47-243.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 03:33:53 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 03:34:01 -!- jao [n=jao@187.Red-83-50-68.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:34:08 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-226-227.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:34:22 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 03:34:37 hmm, is there a program/library that colors sbcl's (or any implementation's) output beside emacs? 03:34:38 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-226-227.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:19 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@70.88.151.157] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:36:23 kpreid [n=kpreid@70.88.151.157] has joined #lisp 03:37:21 -!- konr1 is now known as konr 03:38:47 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 03:39:55 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-37-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:41:33 -!- tic_ [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:43:34 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2FC5B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:56 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.226] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:51:21 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:58:02 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 03:58:25 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.226] has joined #lisp 04:00:44 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2C367.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 04:01:33 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:04:57 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 04:06:38 -!- KalifG [n=user@166.128.107.194] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:12:59 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:41 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 04:16:03 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A2456.versanet.de] has quit [No route to host] 04:18:53 benny [n=benny@i577A2456.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:22:49 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.7.237] has joined #lisp 04:23:03 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-47-243.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:33:25 moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 04:33:50 hi lisp 04:35:25 hello, moocow 04:36:41 ASau [n=user@77.246.231.134] has joined #lisp 04:40:06 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:40:31 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 04:42:12 wolgo [n=noige@69.59.130.52] has joined #lisp 04:42:17 -!- wolgo [n=noige@69.59.130.52] has left #lisp 04:44:04 ignas [n=ignas@78.63.172.30] has joined #lisp 04:47:25 hello there! 04:52:19 tic_ [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 04:52:31 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:02:05 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.253.218] has joined #lisp 05:03:18 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.103] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:04:07 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78.63.172.30] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:05:56 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:30 brandelune [n=suzume@pl834.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:13:10 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.226] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:14:14 -!- charitwo [n=charitwo@wikia/Charitwo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:16:23 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.7.237] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:16:30 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:05 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:23:33 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 05:23:57 manuel_ [n=manuel@91.89.172.94] has joined #lisp 05:24:29 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@91.89.172.94] has quit [Client Quit] 05:26:39 aircastl_ [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:27:47 -!- aircastl_ [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:27:56 aircastl_ [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:28:16 -!- aircastl_ [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:28:23 aircastl_ [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:28:52 -!- aircastl_ [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:29:19 aircastl_ [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:30:56 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:38:36 xan [n=xan@62.78.225.40] has joined #lisp 05:42:25 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-82-32.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:43:35 Adlai` [n=user@c-69-181-142-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:53 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:49:10 xan__ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:57:41 -!- pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 05:58:49 splittist [n=dmurray@73-207.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 05:58:52 morning 06:01:36 -!- xan [n=xan@62.78.225.40] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:02:31 beach [n=user@90.60.124.158] has joined #lisp 06:02:38 Good morning. 06:05:13 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:06:54 Edi Weitz has made web programming fun for me. I need to send him a gift. 06:09:20 -!- xan__ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:10:00 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 06:11:24 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:12:45 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-82.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:17:12 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:20:44 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 06:25:46 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:27:19 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 06:27:32 hello 06:27:38 hello mrSpec 06:27:59 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:30:21 -!- kmels is now known as kmels-zZzzZz 06:30:35 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.127] has joined #lisp 06:34:40 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:35:30 -!- Adlai` [n=user@c-69-181-142-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:39:00 Adlai` [n=user@c-69-181-142-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:37 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 06:42:12 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:43:52 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:45:16 benny` [n=benny@87.122.36.86] has joined #lisp 06:45:22 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A2456.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:46:10 -!- benny` is now known as benny 06:48:53 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 06:49:07 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 06:57:39 good morning beach 06:58:13 deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has joined #lisp 06:58:14 is there a way to make cusp and clbuild play together? 06:58:15 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:19 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:58:35 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:58:43 -!- deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has quit [Client Quit] 06:58:47 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest8078 07:01:40 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:03:40 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 07:05:17 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-9566eac1f05c0dfb] has joined #lisp 07:07:20 legumbre_ [n=user@190.135.15.203] has joined #lisp 07:08:50 -!- Adlai` [n=user@c-69-181-142-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:09:32 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:09:43 Adlai` [n=user@c-69-181-142-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:41 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.127] has quit ["leaving"] 07:10:53 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:11:30 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:12:15 -!- Adlai` [n=user@c-69-181-142-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:13:13 Adlai` [n=user@c-69-181-142-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:20:17 -!- free_thinker [n=willijar@134.151.144.246] has left #lisp 07:21:55 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 07:22:20 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 07:23:18 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-76-90.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:24:43 good morning 07:25:37 densem [n=fasteez2@218.217.72-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 07:25:54 prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:56 dv_ [n=dv@85.127.117.37] has joined #lisp 07:34:11 good morning serichse1 07:35:08 dihymo [n=h@208.79.90.74] has joined #lisp 07:36:24 is there a clean way of using mod_lisp and hunchentoot? 07:36:40 i'm not yet ready to give up apache 07:38:16 -!- densem [n=fasteez2@218.217.72-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:38:16 -!- aircastl_ is now known as aircastle_a 07:40:07 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:44:13 what library can I use to send some post/get data from my lisp program? eg. to log in on some website. 07:44:27 minion: tell mrSpec about drakma 07:44:28 mrSpec: have a look at drakma: Drakma is a fully-featured Common Lisp web client library that knows how to handle HTTP/1.1 chunking, persistent connections, re-usable sockets, SSL, continuable uploads, cookies, and other things. http://www.cliki.net/drakma 07:44:47 great :D Thanks 07:44:54 no problem. :) 07:45:38 I used it to open HTML websites, but didnt know about other features ;) 07:45:59 yes, it's very flexible. 07:46:19 It does leak some flexi-streams errors, though. 07:47:00 ie, if you're loading a page with funky encodings, be prepared to handle flexi-streams::encoding-error, or mess with some flexi-streams configuration. 07:49:22 rudi [n=rudi@mail.ist.tu-graz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 07:50:02 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.127] has joined #lisp 07:50:08 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Success] 07:50:14 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-39-178.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 07:50:45 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:53:02 antoszka_ [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 07:53:50 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:55:35 Ogedei [n=user@85.178.212.14] has joined #lisp 07:56:25 -!- Adlai` [n=user@c-69-181-142-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:03:13 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.253.218] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:03:23 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:03:53 -!- antoszka_ is now known as antoszka 08:04:51 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85.127.117.37] has quit ["Verlassend"] 08:06:24 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:08:09 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.138.194] has joined #lisp 08:08:17 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 08:08:30 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:08:35 jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:08:56 HET2 [i=diman@128.131.95.22] has joined #lisp 08:11:50 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:14:20 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:15:36 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:20:28 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:21:34 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [] 08:23:05 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:34 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 08:24:53 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:26:03 note to self: (trace list) is a bad idea 08:26:13 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:26:16 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 08:26:22 although I submit SBCL shouldn't exactly segfault when I do that 08:27:51 tracing anything in the CL package is verboten 08:28:20 ah 08:28:21 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:28:53 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 08:29:02 fusss [i=738000c1@gateway/web/freenode/x-2c972ec600403b59] has joined #lisp 08:29:05 Uh it should signal a package-lock violation 08:29:08 greetings 08:29:48 hello fusss 08:30:03 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:30:06 anyone have any experience with a CL implementation of fastcgi? 08:30:39 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-67.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 08:30:59 plain old fastcgi seems faster and easier than any "backend farming" of N lisp httpd servers shepherded by a load balancing proxy 08:31:46 gko` [n=Keca@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 08:32:07 this, specifically, looks good http://clisp.cons.org/impnotes/fastcgi.html 08:32:42 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 08:33:24 jamief [n=jamie@158.223.53.104] has joined #lisp 08:33:34 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:34:14 -!- aircastle_a is now known as aircastle_ 08:35:00 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:35:00 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 08:38:28 -!- rudi [n=rudi@mail.ist.tu-graz.ac.at] has quit ["Client exciting"] 08:38:53 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 08:39:36 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 08:40:30 -!- gko` [n=Keca@211.21.137.140] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:43:13 -!- gko [n=Keca@211.21.137.140] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:43:14 Adlai [n=user@c-69-181-142-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:24 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.127] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:24 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:24 -!- danlei` [n=user@pD9E2FC5B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:24 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@70.88.151.157] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:24 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:24 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:24 -!- kmels-zZzzZz [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:24 -!- yoonkn_ [n=yoonkn@210.108.170.70] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:24 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:24 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.144.5] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:24 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:24 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:24 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:24 -!- lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-22-9.dynamic.amis.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:24 -!- schmx [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:24 -!- tarbo_ [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:24 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:24 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:24 -!- kooll [n=samson_t@sd-10510.dedibox.fr] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:24 -!- ineiros_ [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:24 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:24 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:24 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@63.107.91.99] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:24 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host157.190-137-190.telecom.net.ar] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:24 -!- azanar [n=azanar@dsl231-050-107.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:24 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:24 -!- meingbg [n=user@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:24 -!- cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:24 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:55:33 danlei` [n=user@217.226.252.91] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 -!- danlei` [n=user@217.226.252.91] has quit [Killed by reynolds.freenode.net (Nick collision)] 08:56:03 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.127] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2FC5B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 kpreid [n=kpreid@70.88.151.157] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 kmels-zZzzZz [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 yoonkn_ [n=yoonkn@210.108.170.70] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 TR2N [i=email@89.180.144.5] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-22-9.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 schmx [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 kooll [n=samson_t@sd-10510.dedibox.fr] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 ineiros_ [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 jkantz [n=jkantz@63.107.91.99] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 Tordek [n=tordek@host157.190-137-190.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 azanar [n=azanar@dsl231-050-107.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 meingbg [n=user@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:26 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 08:57:31 -!- fusss [i=738000c1@gateway/web/freenode/x-2c972ec600403b59] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 08:57:38 -!- jdz_ is now known as jdz 08:58:00 danlei`` [n=user@217.226.252.91] has joined #lisp 08:58:15 -!- HET2 [i=diman@128.131.95.22] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:58:22 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 08:59:07 yoonkn__ [n=yoonkn@210.108.170.70] has joined #lisp 09:00:42 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:01:44 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 09:03:46 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:05:07 lispm [n=joswig@85.177.122.152] has joined #lisp 09:05:31 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 09:05:58 Adlai` [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:09:36 -!- Adlai [n=user@c-69-181-142-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:09:43 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 09:10:46 Guest33554 [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:19 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.127] has quit ["leaving"] 09:13:05 -!- Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:13:06 -!- danlei` [n=user@pD9E2FC5B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Success] 09:13:19 benny` [n=benny@87.122.36.86] has joined #lisp 09:14:32 -!- benny [n=benny@87.122.36.86] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:14:39 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:14:41 Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 09:16:01 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:19:04 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:20:15 gko [n=Keca@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 09:23:33 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:25:06 HET2 [i=diman@128.131.95.22] has joined #lisp 09:27:20 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 09:27:24 -!- yoonkn_ [n=yoonkn@210.108.170.70] has quit [Success] 09:27:30 -!- dihymo [n=h@208.79.90.74] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:28:39 -!- asksol [n=ask@249.241.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:28:55 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E1D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:30:14 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:34:16 Is there any way that I can log error output from stumpwm? 09:34:36 it's running sbcl underneath, so this question is basically "Is there any way that I can log error output from SBCL?" 09:36:36 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.127] has joined #lisp 09:36:42 Adlai: How about just looking at .xsession-errors? 09:36:53 Adlai: That's where I got crap, when stumpwm wouldn't start. 09:36:57 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-9566eac1f05c0dfb] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:37:56 fusss [i=738000c1@gateway/web/freenode/x-713a56d486f3522a] has joined #lisp 09:38:14 antoszka: this is my first time ever using stumpwm, and it's giving me an error before it even starts "m"ing any "w"s. 09:38:50 anyway to let sb-alien:load-shared-object use ldconfig info to load a library intelligently wthout me having to specify full paths? 09:38:56 I have been trying to run the latest off the master of the git repo; should I be using some previous "stable" version? 09:39:58 Adlai: Yeah, I had the same problem. I tried running the git version (stable wouldn't even compile on my system (I 09:40:06 'm running from a package manager) 09:40:33 Adlai: So I just saw there's some sbcl traceback in .xsession-errors and gave since I was too busy to investigate at the time. 09:40:46 s/gave/gave up/ 09:40:55 Adlai: try dwm in the meantime :) 09:41:02 Moin. 09:41:17 Two questions for the lurking experts: Why does SBCL change the location of the stack? And why doesn't the Windows port do the same? 09:44:01 antoszka: dwm? 09:44:15 Adlai: A very pleasant and light tiling wm. 09:44:20 Adlai: dwm.suckless.org 09:44:31 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 09:45:16 lichtblau: to get a stack of a known size, and at a predictable location (the stack is essentially inside the thread struct)? apparently it's not possible to change stacks on windows 09:45:44 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:47:36 why is predictability important? Just so that GC knows what area of memory to scan? 09:47:38 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-13965.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 09:48:25 sanxiyn [n=tinuviel@118.219.169.203] has joined #lisp 09:48:26 lichtblau: placing absolute pointers in image? 09:48:41 the size part is important, I think having the stack inside the thread struct is just a questionable convenience 09:48:55 for the thread size, wouldn't it be possible to use pthread_attr_setstacksize to do this? (I'm primarily interested in threads other than the initial thread.) 09:48:56 How can I convert string to byte array and vice versa? 09:49:02 -!- jan247__ [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [] 09:50:19 My goal is to have every SBCL thread also be a QThread. Unfortunately, both SBCL and Qt call pthread_create with their own little set-up routine, so as things stand, I'd have to modify at least one of those two routines. 09:50:42 we only switch the initial thread's stack 09:51:10 lichtblau: what about hijacking pthread_create? 09:51:11 the others are created with the correct stack through some other pthread_attr_setfoo 09:51:40 pthread_attr_setstack, I see 09:52:54 *p_l* wonders if it was possible to setup per-thread symbol tables in Linux 09:53:03 minion: tell sanxiyn about babel 09:53:04 sanxiyn: direct your attention towards babel: Babel is a charset encoding/decoding library, not unlike GNU libiconv, but completely written in Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/babel 09:53:13 lichtblau: Thanks. 09:54:11 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:55:02 lichtblau: you could hijack pthread functions to create a pseudo :around method to make every thread a QThread 09:55:49 however, it's iirc a case of Some Assembly Needed 09:56:08 (or at least playing dangerously close to dynamic loader) 09:56:27 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:57:16 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-127.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:59:08 p_l: that would be an option if recompilation was to be avoided, but that's not really what I'm worrying about. (Although I'd prefer changing SBCL over changing Qt.) 10:00:50 lichtblau: it should be possible to implement it using FFI and would avoid changes to QT (and wouldn't really change SBCL, just "tweak" it) 10:01:39 bhav [n=user@210.212.85.57] has joined #lisp 10:01:53 -!- lispm [n=joswig@85.177.122.152] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:04:59 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 10:09:53 what was the sb-alien way for passing a Lisp string to a function that expects a cstring? 10:10:40 it was FOO is not (or null SAP (ALIEN (* #)) 10:11:19 do you mean a c-string? 10:11:32 yeah 10:11:37 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 10:12:10 the function i am trying to call takes a char *foo string argument 10:12:25 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 10:14:53 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 10:15:00 (define-alien-routine "printf" integer (format c-string)) 10:15:09 (printf (format nil "abc~%")) ; wfm 10:15:20 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:16:12 amazing how i can't see what's just before me 10:16:31 of course, being Einstein Jr I defined it as (string (* char)) 10:16:38 not (string c-string) 10:17:13 *sanxiyn* finally got Babel installed. 10:17:21 Hm, how do you install Common Lisp libraries? 10:17:34 clbuild is easiest. 10:18:20 After lichtblau told me about Babel, I did checkout of trivial-features, alexandria, babel, linked .asd to .sbcl/systems, and compiled. 10:18:31 ./clbuild install babel 10:18:50 manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has joined #lisp 10:18:50 Ok, how do I install clbuild? 10:18:52 it's not perfect, but it does basically what you did by hand 10:19:06 darcs get http://common-lisp.net/project/clbuild/clbuild # if I remember rightly 10:19:14 Xof: Thanks. 10:19:33 It seems that Common Lisp world changed a lot while I was away :) 10:20:16 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:20:48 sanxiyn: those are pretty much standard stuff; the first few libraries will fetch a bunch of packages; after that there will be fewer and fewer downloads 10:21:05 k 10:21:09 *fusss* installed core-server and never ever had to download another CL library again ;-) 10:22:01 lol 10:22:03 Would be easiest for me if it's in Debian repository. Oh well. 10:22:21 core-server is interesting but I don't like its persistence mechanism 10:23:46 sanxiyn: i tried babel, trivial-utf8 and flexistreams and something else 10:24:06 fusss: What do you like most? 10:24:19 fwiw, i remember having a passionately angry night about three of them and loving one. too bad, i forgot which ones :-P 10:24:27 hold, it's in my work laptop 10:24:35 brb 10:26:44 okay, flexi-streams is what i used 10:27:55 but my needs might be different than yours. I was trying to process bad xml files in arabic (windows-1256) and converting them to utf-8, on Windows, with LispWorks. You can see how I can enter a world of pain doing this with zero unicode experience. 10:28:04 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:28:11 I see. :) 10:28:28 I live in South Korea, so I consider myself encoding-savvy. :) 10:28:32 + zero xml experience (trying every xml library in cliki) 10:28:44 fusss: Now you have experience. :) 10:28:45 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 10:28:55 fusss: people are still doing things like Arabic with code-pages? 10:28:56 ugh 10:28:57 san: Me, too. 10:29:15 unicode party! 10:29:16 Zhivago: You live in Korea? 10:29:21 san: Yeah. 10:29:34 rsynnott: Sure, people do that. (Here in Korea, euc-kr and cp949) 10:29:45 (They are not same!) 10:29:49 rsynnott: the arabic web is 99% M$ code pages 10:30:02 ow 10:30:05 euc-kr has the exciting property of being easily misdecoded as euc-cn or euc-jp :) 10:31:06 Zhivago: Mozilla can autodetect. Works for me. :) 10:31:40 Most of the time. 10:31:57 Zhivago: Seoul? 10:32:10 san: Yes. 10:33:12 *rsynnott* remembers that back when codepages were popular for european languages, IE generally managed them by GUESSING 10:33:32 You should try doing a google search on a Korean euc-kr term mis-encoded as euc-cn. 10:33:38 this generally worked fine, but if you had a web page with abnormal character distribution, it might abruptly change into cyrillic 10:33:54 rstandy: It's a good policy, since lots of people declares wrong encoding. 10:34:07 rsynnott: it was even funnier because in Poland, the only OS that was compliant with proper encoding was unix :D 10:34:29 so encountering CP1250 was worse than "just another encoding" 10:35:03 *p_l* recalls people writing webpages using alt-escapes to enter latin2 10:36:01 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:54 san: There are few lisp people in Korea. 10:39:03 Zhivago: There used to be lisp.or.kr. It seems it disappeared. 10:39:09 ivan-kanis [n=user@if02t2-89-83-137-164.d4.club-internet.fr] has joined #lisp 10:39:16 it's unfortunate, perhaps, that the early computer standards mostly turned up in a single-language state 10:40:03 if it had been somewhere with multiple languages, especially if one was non-latin, we would never have had this codepage silliness :) 10:40:33 san: Too much spam. 10:40:53 rsynnott: a little bird told me you have been playing with TokyoTyrant. if that's so, do you think it would be suitable for a first-stage log server? i.e. as an /var/http/access logger for a small farm of hunchenoots (1000 requests per second or so)? 10:41:01 Actually, I think it was the work of one man in Suweon. 10:41:36 and by first stage i mean that daemon would be going over it at a set interval and moving the records to an rdbms 10:41:44 fusss: hmm 10:41:54 something like a message queue might be better for that? 10:42:13 what do you recommend for a $LANG-disabled lisper 10:42:24 *fusss* i finally forgot both C and Perl :-( 10:42:55 with tc you would presumably have to make up a key for each entry, iterate over the whole DB while preventing anything new coming in, send to rdbms, wipe database, and start again 10:43:00 which sounds horrible 10:43:11 rsynnott: I think tabledb from TokyoTyrant would work quite well for shared log - you can run queries on it 10:43:21 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:43:23 rsynnott: couldn't I "flip" databases in a transaction? 10:43:34 fusss: you can do atomic copies of databases 10:43:56 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:13 also, Tyrant afaik abstracts transactions for writers so you can have multiple readers/writers 10:44:47 fusss: but to get full functionality, you'd need Tyrant protocol, not memached nor HTTP 10:45:06 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 10:45:46 i would be happy to remove the "pager" daemon and use TC for everything, say, up to every 5 days or so. 10:45:49 KingThomasV [n=KingThom@76.122.37.30] has joined #lisp 10:47:06 sorry, brb 10:48:13 it would probably have no trouble handling the write frequency, anyway 10:48:31 proq` [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 10:48:50 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:50:07 -!- fusss [i=738000c1@gateway/web/freenode/x-713a56d486f3522a] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 10:53:40 Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 10:53:55 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-13f541070f59084c] has joined #lisp 10:56:24 -!- proq` [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:56:43 proq` [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 10:56:51 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 10:57:43 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 10:58:55 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 10:59:17 princ and format is much slower than print. why is that so? http://paste.lisp.org/display/83842 10:59:46 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 10:59:59 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [] 11:00:21 tomoyuki28jp: that test shows princ to be the fastest 11:02:00 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit ["leaving"] 11:02:55 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@76.122.37.30] has quit [Success] 11:03:52 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 11:06:02 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:06:14 Would someone please show me how to use this function to call "ls -C" : http://paste.lisp.org/display/83776 11:06:53 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:07:36 lat: with "ls -C", do you mean the shell "ls"? 11:07:36 lat: (execv "/bin/ls" "-C") 11:07:43 serichsen: execv, so no shell 11:07:56 ah ok 11:07:58 lat: remember that it will replace your process with /bin/ls 11:08:07 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@70.88.151.157] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:08:11 (that includes all threads) 11:08:49 I just thought that I would use sb-ext:run-program for something like that 11:09:30 p_l, thanks. I'll try it now. 11:11:27 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 11:14:24 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.93.32] has joined #lisp 11:15:48 p_l, this can't be run from the REPL then, right? 11:17:37 -!- Guest33554 [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:17:41 p_l, To run it, will I have to compile it to be a separate program? 11:17:57 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:18:51 lat: you can run it from REPL, but you will lose REPL upon execution 11:19:30 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-157-99.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:19:38 read manuals exec(3) and fork(2), maybe also system(3) 11:20:12 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:56 p_l, but it doesn't display ls before stopping REPL. 11:22:31 cracki [n=cracki@43-231.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:22:31 lat: because your lisp might have done something funny with descriptors 11:22:39 are you running it from SLIME? 11:22:55 if yes, then look in inferior-lisp buffer 11:23:18 p_l, yes, from slime. 11:24:45 try looking in inferior-lisp, slime-repl won't see output because it will lose connection to lisp image (because it won't exist after call to exec) 11:24:53 Is there a way in SLIME to re-indent a region correctly, as if doing C-J on each line? 11:25:28 M-x indent-region (bound to C-\ I think) 11:26:01 *luis* uses C-M-q 11:27:09 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 11:27:35 p_l, it is there! Many, many thanks! You have have helped this newbie past some real confusion. 11:27:52 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-13965.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:29:24 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.127] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:29:26 beach: luis: Thanks, indent-region works like a charm (although I cannot press C-\ on my layout). C-M-q would thus be faster, but it doesn't seem to work for me? 11:30:58 kpreid [n=kpreid@70.88.151.157] has joined #lisp 11:31:34 meingbg: C-M-q works in a slightly different way. You have to place the cursor at the beginning of the s-exp before pressing that combo. 11:32:12 borism [n=boris@195-50-197-191-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 11:32:46 meingbg: note that you can quickly reach that by pressing C-M-u repeatedly when inside the sexp 11:33:26 luis: Thanks, that works. 11:33:47 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:33:48 lat: just read unix manuals in depth, exec, fork, clone etc. are tricky in some cases :) 11:34:00 meingbg: Sorry, it should be C-M-\. My fingers remember but not my brain. 11:35:36 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-147-98.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:35:43 -!- blackwolf [n=blackwol@69.118.53.65] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:38:10 serichse1: ok, that's going to make life easier. I noted also that C-M-a C-M-q is a good combination... 11:40:35 -!- gko [n=Keca@211.21.137.140] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:43:56 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 11:45:14 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 11:45:39 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-127.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:46:07 is there anything going on with cltl3 besides the mailing list? 11:46:13 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 11:50:43 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.231.134] has quit ["off"] 11:52:03 When defining a generic functions no argument names are given, which makes the SLIME minibuffer popup less helpful when writing a function call. A quick work-around would be to just use defmethod, leaving out the defgeneric. Is there another work-around? 11:52:48 Why don't you give argument names? 11:52:50 meingbg: Why aren't you giving argument names to the generic function. 11:53:01 Or, rather, what are you giving instead? 11:53:23 *meingbg* didn't know it was possible to give argument names in defgeneric. 11:53:32 How else would it know the arity? 11:53:45 meingbg: How do you give arguments without naming them? 11:54:12 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:54:23 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@70.88.151.157] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:54:34 kpreid [n=kpreid@70.88.151.157] has joined #lisp 11:54:38 beach: (defgeneric fun-name (type-of-arg1 type-of-arg2 type-of-arg3)) 11:54:50 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.127] has joined #lisp 11:55:00 meingbg: Replace the type names by real names. 11:55:14 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:55:39 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1F9E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 11:56:40 meing: You're using the type specifiers as variable names. :) 11:58:38 jao [n=jao@187.Red-83-50-68.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:45 fvw_ [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.127] has joined #lisp 11:59:49 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@73-207.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.1"] 12:01:55 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:02:35 I guess parameter names to defgeneric must be unique, so if more than one parameter has a particular type, you couldn't use that convention. 12:04:14 Zhivago: ok! 12:04:38 beach: I guess that convention totally confused me. 12:05:06 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:05:10 *meingbg* makes a note to himself to look things up in clhs before assuming things. 12:06:45 OK, I can't find the passage in the Common Lisp HyperSpec saying that parameter names in an ordinary lambda list must be unique. Does anyone remember? 12:07:26 -!- aircastle_ is now known as aircastle_away 12:08:04 Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:41 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:09:47 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:10:45 beach: I don't think it's explicit, but I think there's useful language under LET 12:13:21 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 12:14:27 nyef [n=nyef@pool-64-222-164-136.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:31 G'morning all. 12:14:33 hello nyef 12:14:43 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:25 Hun [n=hun@217.86.190.93] has joined #lisp 12:15:29 -!- prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:15:42 prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 12:24:24 fusss [i=738020a5@gateway/web/freenode/x-5c0d397dbdc97bc1] has joined #lisp 12:24:29 w00t 12:24:54 3 months of being knee deep in webserver performance tweaking and I haven't heard of this 12:26:00 rsynott, p_l, xach, other people who have watched me suffer. the elixir is called X-Sendfile 12:26:23 what a fucking relief 12:26:46 replacing N instances of hunchentoot with nginx or whateve else proxy that was sitting on front of them 12:26:55 *Xach* used sendfile directly from lisp 12:27:09 Xach: that's destinated for suckage 12:27:22 You aren't a very credible witness. 12:27:23 X-Sendfile, let your fast httpd of choice do the data transfer 12:27:40 whoppix [n=whoppix@88.88.65.49] has joined #lisp 12:27:44 i did my benchmarks xach, and the 4 lines of ffi to prove it 12:27:55 *Xach* shrugs 12:28:05 i deliver small files, graphics, less than 90k 12:28:18 sendfile(2) is good for big files 12:28:44 fusss: nice 12:28:57 now you only need to document your findings :) 12:29:21 fusss: ah, yes, that thing :) 12:29:23 guaqua: it's well known, it's a feature of fastcgi 12:29:28 fusss: What is X-Sendfile? 12:29:42 (you're sending private static files?) 12:29:47 that's all i friken wanted, really. 3 months of work just to discover that now. 12:29:55 fusss: well-known, yet you spent a few months discovering it :) 12:30:32 rsynnott: the user requests banner.jpg, which is a "virtual asset", rotated and targeted per user, based on where they're that they have soon already, and other criteria, etc. 12:30:47 ah 12:31:05 yep, sounds like a job for x-sendfile ;) 12:31:15 Xach: could you reproduce the bug I sent to sbcl-devel? 12:31:20 http://blog.lighttpd.net/articles/2006/07/02/x-sendfile 12:31:25 Fare: I didn't try, sorry. 12:31:30 np 12:32:02 fusss: I'd love to see the benchmarks. 12:32:20 fusss: You said nginx not lighttpd? 12:32:33 Xach: who wouldn't? :-) 12:33:06 fusss: Is the source for your Lisp webserver public? 12:33:14 sanxiyn: it's a feature of fastcgi, lighty supports it and so does nginx (in another manner) see link above 12:33:47 Xach: it could be Xach, it's hunchentoot with a cheesy epoll based taskmaster 12:34:05 i don't even need that now 12:35:04 fusss: Are you dismissing using sendfile() only when it's in hunchentoot, or dismissing the idea of any fast lisp webserver with sendfile? 12:35:17 i have gotten good at parading several hunchentoot instances behind the scenes over the last coupla weeks, all unnecessary now. just need my fastcgi adpicker with lighty on front. 12:35:34 ... sourceforge changed their website skin -again-? 12:35:34 Xach: with hunchentoot only, i have no idea of any other lisp server 12:35:41 nyef: yes 12:36:11 Oh well, it'll only last a few months before they get tired of it, I'm sure. 12:36:18 fusss: ok. i think a lisp webserver that uses sendfile need not suck at being fast. 12:36:41 Well SourceForge got a lot better compared to the past. 12:37:28 Xach: when you said "sendfile", I saw flexistreams, REQUEST, REPLY and other hunchentoot goodnesses in my head. drewc has been telling me about about Symbolic Web 12:37:42 -!- cracki [n=cracki@43-231.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 12:37:45 ok, bed time 12:38:19 nyef: forums/mailing list archives are still horrible and unusable, though 12:38:24 How often does common-lisp.net Mailman archive update? 12:39:17 I wish SourceForge used something like gmane.org. 12:39:32 (Gmane! Search!) 12:39:48 Ugh. So much for the easy solution of downloading a built SBCL mipsle. 12:39:50 Obviously, with separate hierarchy. (sourceforge.*, not gmane.*) 12:40:20 sanxiyn: well, any sort of mailing list archive designed by sane people would do 12:40:43 But Gmane is more equal, etc. 12:40:46 -!- fusss [i=738020a5@gateway/web/freenode/x-5c0d397dbdc97bc1] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 12:45:34 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:45:54 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:45:59 larstobi [n=larstobi@195.139.173.50] has joined #lisp 12:46:14 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:46:25 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 12:47:42 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@70.88.151.157] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:50:44 hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 12:52:28 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-47-243.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 12:52:33 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:52:42 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 12:52:44 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:52:46 re 12:54:13 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:45 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 12:55:31 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:11 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.18] has joined #lisp 12:56:28 hello splittist 12:56:33 hello fe[nl]ix 12:57:02 hello beach 12:58:17 -!- younder [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:58:37 younder [n=jthing@212.251.244.165] has joined #lisp 12:58:46 -!- kmels-zZzzZz [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has quit [] 12:59:04 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 12:59:43 -!- fvw_ [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.127] has quit ["leaving"] 12:59:45 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:00:22 fe[nl]ix, any news of your run-program? 13:00:34 Fare: what kind of news ? 13:00:54 dunno -- do you have a prototype? 13:01:01 is it in iolib yet? 13:01:02 nope 13:01:04 nope 13:01:09 :( 13:01:16 do you have an approx ETA ? 13:01:24 -!- Guest8078 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 13:02:18 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:02:35 Fare: well, first I'd like to roughly finish the streams, at least enough to be able to create pipes, then concentrate on run-program 13:02:36 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:02:40 unless you're in a hurry 13:02:57 Fare: is this urgent ? 13:03:04 nah 13:03:06 python's subprocess module is pretty nice, maybe something worth looking at 13:03:13 I mean, before the end of summer would be great 13:03:15 if in need of ideas :) 13:03:25 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:03:26 as in -- some advanced features in XCVB would depend on it 13:03:39 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:03:52 mid august would be great 13:04:18 Fare: ok, but in the meanwhile you do me the favour of coming up with a good API 13:04:27 Hunh. My X server doesn't appear to be listening on a TCP port. No wonder I can't connect remotely... 13:04:28 at least do some research 13:05:49 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:06:08 OK, adding that to my TODO list 13:06:12 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Client Quit] 13:06:20 Fare / fe[nl]ix: I wrote this a while ago ... not sure how good it is, but maybe at least a jumping off point: http://common-lisp.net/project/external-program/ 13:06:23 Fare: before starting to write the C helper, I need to have a rough design for the wire protocol used to communicate with the CL impl. 13:06:24 (the xcvb TODO is twice the size of the manual) 13:06:29 hahahaha 13:06:33 sellout, thanks 13:06:38 I'll push the code somewhere today. 13:07:09 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 13:07:21 I would have the C code be generated by the Lisp, to ensure they speak the same wire protocol. 13:07:45 blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has joined #lisp 13:07:49 Oh, here's the code: http://www.cliki.net/external-program 13:08:26 kpreid [n=kpreid@70.88.151.157] has joined #lisp 13:10:04 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:10:19 Fare: that's way too much of a hassle. you'd need to first write a protocol generator with two backends(lisp/C) 13:11:10 isn't there a CL library to dump C code? 13:11:21 but yes, can be painful 13:11:36 Fare: I was more thinking of a very simple format: each execution command is sexp with the name of the command in its car, and a plist of options in the cdr 13:11:47 fe[nl]ix, see in philip-jose the timid start of such a manual protocol 13:12:09 (file frobork.c) 13:12:28 on the CL side, one would just use print and read, on the C side writing a parser and printer should be quite easily 13:12:30 *sanxiyn* thinks maybe there should be Lisp generator for Thrift. 13:12:32 *easy 13:12:45 sanxiyn, thanks for volunteering 13:13:21 i've used sexps with generic functions + specializers with some sucess to implement protocol functionality. something like: (command :login (data)) or what have you... 13:14:05 -!- larstobi [n=larstobi@195.139.173.50] has quit ["leaving"] 13:14:48 Fare: I probably should work on it, so that I can use Hypertable from Lisp... 13:15:00 rsynnott wrote one 13:15:03 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:09 Xach: ? 13:15:25 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-13f541070f59084c] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:16:22 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Success] 13:17:04 sanxiyn: That's all I have. 13:17:23 Is it different from http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/THRIFT-82 ? 13:17:31 LostMonarch [n=roby@82.57.182.240] has joined #lisp 13:17:54 Does anyone understand the :save-runtime-options t thing in SBCL? 13:17:55 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 13:18:00 Fare: I do. 13:18:33 Xach: can you reproduce the bug? 13:18:40 Fare: I have not tried yet. 13:18:43 this works: sbcl --eval '(sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "foo" :executable t :save-runtime-options t)' ; ./foo --version --eval '(sb-ext:quit)' 13:19:13 I saw the email. 13:19:18 this doesn't: sbcl --eval '(sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "bar" :executable t)' ; ./bar --eval '(sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "baz" :executable t :save-runtime-options t)' ; ./baz --version --eval '(sb-ext:quit)' 13:19:56 is there something like SUBST but for sequences? To be precise, I want to substitute substrings with another substrings 13:19:57 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has joined #lisp 13:20:11 SUBSTITUTE ain't gonna cut it, since it can only substitute characters 13:20:36 mathrick: are the substrings the same length? 13:20:39 no 13:20:44 mathrick: try (setf subseq) 13:20:46 I have no easy suggestions. 13:20:58 beach: oh, that might be that. lemme try 13:21:04 Xach: and if they were? 13:21:05 (setf subseq) would be my suggestion if the subsequences were the same length. 13:21:08 oh 13:21:09 search + that 13:21:11 cl-ppcre can do it for strings.. 13:21:24 mathrick, as i recall, there's nothing in the standard, but googling 'lisp string-replace 13:21:31 Fade: I know, but I wanted to avoid pulling in extra deps just for string substitution 13:21:40 comes up with a user-defined funciton pretty quickly 13:21:41 mathrick: no there isn't. you can use ppcre:regex-replace 13:21:54 yeah. I use cl-ppcre when I need such things. 13:22:01 yeah, I'll just cook something up 13:23:42 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:23:59 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Client Quit] 13:24:54 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-194.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:51 nha [n=prefect@62.158.123.150] has joined #lisp 13:26:07 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:26:18 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:27:27 Xach: yep, unfortunately it's not available :( 13:27:35 wrote for work 13:27:54 there's an available one here, however: http://collison.ie/ 13:30:16 sanxiyn, rather 13:30:59 Kickaha [n=jadawin@bl5-16-89.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 13:31:07 rsynnott: Thanks. 13:31:22 rsynnott: One on collision.ie seems to be the same one as in Apache issue tracker. 13:31:41 yep; don't think the project ever integrated it 13:31:52 I wonder why not? 13:32:01 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:18 they're slow about such things; took them a few months to commit a one-line patch I sent in to make booleans work properly in the erlang one 13:32:22 hi everyone, i'm trying to get cl-memcached to run on sbcl but i'm having some problems... Can anyone explain me how i can write a string onto a binary socket stream? 13:32:38 Kickaha: convert it to octets. 13:32:51 In practice, I think they've very little interest in the platforms they don't use themselves in facebook (they use erlang now, but they didn't back then) 13:32:51 Kickaha: string-to-octets is a built-in function that will do it; there are others available too. 13:33:02 rsynnott: I once sent a patch to Java binding, and it was promptly integrated. 13:33:20 thanks Xach, gonna give it a try :) 13:33:21 rudi [n=rudi@mail.ist.tu-graz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 13:34:26 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:36:01 fhc [n=fhc@bl4-85-51.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 13:36:26 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:36:32 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:36:47 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Client Quit] 13:37:17 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:37:45 Xach: any way of doing that portably? apparently that function is from sb-ext package and thus i believe not portable 13:38:06 Kickaha: flexi-streams and babel have similar functions 13:38:10 and are cross-platform 13:38:36 rsynnott: cool, i think i'm gonna opt for one of those 13:38:50 anyone around has used cl-memcached before? 13:39:47 -!- fhc [n=fhc@bl4-85-51.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 13:39:54 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has left #lisp 13:40:50 Kickaha: think I got it working on sbcl before; that string thing was the only major problem 13:40:51 sanxiyn pasted "string/bytes" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83849 13:41:23 (This is what I cooked up before I learned about Babel, flexi-streams, etc.) 13:41:43 rsynnott: cool, that way i feel more confident working on it :) 13:41:54 sanxiyn: unicode, etc... 13:41:57 sanxiyn: that won't work for unicode, though 13:42:03 rsynnott: I know. 13:42:12 fhc [n=fhc@81.193.85.51] has joined #lisp 13:42:25 -!- beach [n=user@90.60.124.158] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:43:05 -!- Kickaha [n=jadawin@bl5-16-89.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:44:18 beach [n=user@90.60.124.158] has joined #lisp 13:44:56 Kickaha [n=jadawin@82.154.16.89] has joined #lisp 13:47:46 I have a question. Is there a way to deploy common lisp with small executables, without having to pack up the compiler (like SBCL), only a small runtime? 13:48:28 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:39 -!- beach [n=user@90.60.124.158] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:48:43 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.15] has joined #lisp 13:49:35 fhc: you need the compiler SOMEWHERe 13:49:39 fhc: in general, no 13:49:54 but if you trust that /usr/bin has the right version for you, you can deploy the FASL 13:49:59 the most compact representation of your program is going to be the source code. 13:50:05 Fare: in case you didn't notice, the patch was already committed (with a added docstring) over the weekend 13:50:10 OR, you can use cl-launch to have your lisp be dynamically recompiled 13:50:19 jsnell, oh, was it? 13:50:21 woohoo 13:50:31 *Fare* git pull's 13:50:31 in general no? do not both SBCL and CMUCL have support for creating executables? 13:50:38 fhc: LispWorks gets it relatively small. the regex-coach was 6 megs. 13:50:57 hypno: sure, but those executives include lisp 13:50:57 hypno: My understanding is that such executables do contain full compiler. 13:51:15 ah, without the runtime.. ah, duh, ok. 13:51:29 jsnell, thanks a whole lot! 13:51:36 the dumped images are quite large. 13:51:51 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:52:04 Fare: you're welcome, sorry I've been dragging my heels on that for so long 13:52:20 fhc, compress the result .. it ends up at about 5mb using 7zip (or lzma), and decompression is almost instant 13:52:33 fhc: i think you should provide more information. what constraints do you have, and what are your real goals? 13:52:34 beach [n=user@90.60.124.158] has joined #lisp 13:54:01 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 13:54:41 jsnell, no, no don't be sorry. It's fine 13:54:49 i was reading about a tree shaker for sbcl about a year ago, but I think that never progressed beyond a proof of concept. 13:54:59 your only user is probably XCVB, which about no one uses but me & my interns 13:55:03 and now to something else: there is no alternative to GET-UNIVERSAL-TIME that can deal with say milliseconds? (as far as ANSI CL goes) 13:55:21 hypno: get-internal-real-time is not quite it. 13:55:30 hypno: the resolution is not specified 13:55:39 hypno: I think no. 13:55:40 (but can be determined by checking internal-time-units-per-second iirc) 13:55:44 rsynnott: after making a small test here i don't even need to convert to binary, instead i open the socket stream with element-type 'character and change some vector initialization to character as well and apparently it all works correctly now 13:55:56 Xach: ah, nice. ok, thanks. 13:56:27 I thought that sbcl had some time routines that got more prescise than just seconds. 13:56:56 TDT: it does. they're extra-standard 13:57:33 you could parse the output of time ;) 13:57:36 Xach: yeah, and he's looking for ANSI, that makes sense. 13:57:37 sb-ext:get-time-of-day 13:57:53 (it always has at least millisecond accuracy on any platform I've seen) 13:58:32 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 13:58:48 fhc: is 40MB too big for you? 13:59:11 Fare: heh, that the size of the executable you created or something? 13:59:31 that's the size of about any SBCL executable with image included (on amd64) 13:59:44 note that if image size matters a lot, you can go the CLISP way 14:00:05 ECL may also present a path. 14:00:13 Fare: Is it possible to, eh, "link" the image? 14:00:22 yeah, and with ECL you don't have to include the compiler 14:00:32 what do you mean by "link" ? 14:00:46 sanxiyn: ECL might be just what you want. 14:00:49 with clisp, my production images end up around 3mb. (add another for clisp binary itself) 14:00:57 In C, linker removes unused codes, right? 14:01:00 (I ought to try out cl-launch with the latest ECL) 14:01:23 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.127] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:01:30 Fare: yeah, that's pretty big,..although curious how hypno gets it so small. I think cl-launhc is how I'm going to go about doing most of my stuff. 14:01:47 sanxiyn, at the .o granularity if you use a .a, yes -- which is usually nothing 14:01:56 masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has joined #lisp 14:04:23 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-226-227.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 14:04:52 TDT: if you do, I'm interested in your feedback 14:05:51 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:06:41 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:08:03 -!- fhc [n=fhc@81.193.85.51] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:08:59 -!- danlei`` is now known as danlei 14:09:00 http://paste.lisp.org/display/83851 26mb -> 5mb .. that shouldn't be a problem 14:09:20 ..decompresses in an instant at the users' end too 14:09:29 -!- danlei is now known as Guest26465 14:09:40 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:10:16 -!- chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:10:59 Adlai` [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:11:14 -!- benny` is now known as benny 14:11:31 -!- Adlai` [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:11:59 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:13:03 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 14:13:40 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 14:14:17 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:56 rickardg [n=user@EGAWS2003.stu.lu.se] has joined #lisp 14:18:56 davazp [n=user@79.153.148.56] has joined #lisp 14:19:25 jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 14:20:37 C is a high-level language; http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/92l8w/in_your_opinions_what_is_wrong_with_the_c/c0b7zj8 14:20:46 heh ... :) 14:21:17 well, of course it is! 14:21:18 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:21:23 just not very high-level at all 14:21:36 Apart from high/low level being meaningless terms of propaganda, it is true. 14:21:50 C is about as close to assembler as I care to get. 14:22:08 lnostdal: Indeed, when compared to the capacitor. 14:22:30 If that's "no-where even vaguely close to", then fair enough. 14:22:52 OT, where can I find ERC logs of channels I've been in? 14:23:23 i never grokked C .. or i could at one time understand its details quite well and use it etc. .. but some of the stuff in C just seems totally random .. random limitations for a low-level(??) language 14:23:51 It's a very useful thing to know, though 14:24:00 minion: tell Adlai about logs 14:24:01 Adlai: please look at logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 14:24:25 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:24:27 lnostdal: hmm. what would those random limitations be? 14:24:34 beach: I know about "logs"... I'm not sure the channel I was in was logged 14:26:25 valvola [n=fabiovio@193.204.78.80] has joined #lisp 14:26:43 Adlai: Ah, sorry. I wasn't reading very carefully what you wrote. 14:27:06 Adlai: try C-h v erc-current-logfile or somesuch 14:27:16 hm, ok. 14:27:29 I think that 'primitive and horrible' are far more meaningful than 'low level'. 14:28:24 Ubiquitous? 14:29:59 btw, it's ~/log/ 14:30:05 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:30:25 okay, before I go doing stupid things, lemme just confirm: there isn't a way to install reader macros locally for a single form, right? 14:30:42 ie. (some-special-form ;; here [ is a reader macro ...) 14:30:49 You could use a reader macro to do that. 14:31:04 well, yeah, but that would conflict with everyone else, I think 14:31:21 cl-sql does something like that for it's sql forms. 14:31:26 Zhivago: IIRC, I can't install a reader macro called some-special-form? 14:31:34 minion: thwap for Fade 14:31:35 Fade: oh, how does it do it? 14:31:36 Fade: please see thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 14:31:38 just guessing: make a new reader-table for just that environment? 14:31:45 You could install a reader macro for #\( 14:31:46 hypno, i can't think of anything right now .. (see the reply by __david__ wrt. calling any old address and "trusting the programmer" wrt. arguments) 14:31:50 such an unforgiving group. :) 14:32:07 minion: tell mathrick about cl-syntax-sugar 14:32:08 mathrick: have a look at cl-syntax-sugar: cl-syntax-sugar is a Library of reader macros and of helper functions to create new syntax extensions and to use them with ASDF and Slime without enabling them in the global readtable. http://www.cliki.net/cl-syntax-sugar 14:32:09 Zhivago: yes, but that's a guaranteed clash with everyone else who ever does that 14:32:09 mathrick: maybe use the &whole parameter and re-parse it with a local readtable? 14:32:14 francisco [n=fhc@81.193.87.240] has joined #lisp 14:32:27 *Adlai* is just guessing. 14:32:27 fe[nl]ix: yeah, at some point I'll have to go there 14:32:45 Adlai: ooh, I forgot about whole, that helps 14:32:53 but yes, I was suspecting something roughly like that 14:32:57 print, then re-read 14:33:11 What problem are you trying to solve? 14:33:33 lnostdal: heh. well, there are a number of issues with C as such, but i think there are few limitations really (provided you want to do the hard work). i think Zhivago hit the target pretty well with "primitive" reflecting the nature of C. :) 14:34:22 hypno: I don't think of C as sitting in a different boat from FORTRAN or even assembler... 14:34:27 One of the most significant limitations is that you cannot portable tag objects. 14:34:32 er, portably 14:34:38 *Xach* ran into ENOMEM again :( 14:34:48 Zhivago: I want to have [ ] function as syntax within a single form without installing a global reader macro 14:34:52 Xach, amd64? 14:34:57 Fare: yes 14:35:03 grrr. 14:35:07 I have that a lot, too 14:35:17 matherick: In order to solve what problem? 14:35:19 Xach: what are you doing when you hit it? 14:35:23 Zhivago: I went with just inspecting symbols at first, but then I realised I am destroying the ability to |quote| 14:35:36 Fade: using a lot of memory. but not nearly the amount of memory i actually have. 14:35:41 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl834.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 14:35:55 Zhivago: in order to have a bit more readable syntax in a rather paren-heavy macro 14:36:02 hitting the user process limit? 14:36:13 Fade: no. page mapping count. 14:36:21 and I *already* recompiled with a large page size 14:36:39 hrmn 14:36:39 ccl doesn't have this issue -- they compact the heap every time. 14:37:02 sellout: Is there a particular reason bxthreads defaults *print-pretty* to true? 14:37:19 now to see if my application will reload from scratch... 14:37:21 this isn't an issue with compacting the heap though 14:37:29 it isn't? 14:37:50 can't you just make a big mapping for the TOSPACE, then drop all the mappings of FROMSPACE 14:37:54 sellout: argh, I mean *PRINT-READABLY*, not pretty 14:37:54 Adlai: well, i've alwaysed consider C a step up from assembler, at least. most low-level hacks i've done in both asm and C has generally been much better in C. C is misused in the Unix world. i consider it the wrong tool for application development, but for low-level hacking, i think it is pretty nice. people fuck up a lot with too much preprocessor hacking tho, but that isn't C's fault (look at the CCL kernel source for example *g*) 14:37:56 lichtblau: I think that's something fe[nl]ix added. 14:38:04 sellout: I've found that to be a very annoying source of errors in threads, because nearly all of my threads want to print something eventually, and most things aren't printable readably. 14:38:09 and essentially reduce the number of mappings to the number of generations? 14:38:22 (plus number of pinned objects) 14:38:35 I'm thinking that giving a standard mechanism to do that (and a non-interning reader) would be a Good Thing in CLtL3 14:38:49 lichtblau: He's really taken over the project. I haven't touched it in probably a year. 14:38:51 to go along with local readtables and all that 14:38:53 no, sbcl doesn't have contiguous generations. but even if it had, there would still be similar fragmentation from the kernel's viewpoint 14:38:58 does clbuild run under windows? 14:39:01 matherick: Just get rid of the reader. 14:39:02 mathrick: What is CLtL3? 14:39:09 mathrick: write a proposal! 14:39:10 Zhivago: *mathrick 14:39:17 fe[nl]ix: I just might! 14:39:19 matherick: It's mainly an efficiency hack from days of yore. 14:39:28 jsnell, what causes so much fragmentation in SBCL? 14:39:31 since different kinds of gc pages can have different vm page flags 14:39:38 a non-interning reader would be nice. 14:39:41 fe[nl]ix: okay, then the question above is for you 14:39:42 as compared to a simpler "allocate generation contiguously" GC ? 14:39:45 -!- prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:39:59 prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:59 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:40:13 Replace it with a stream which translates characters to objects -- specialize. :) 14:40:18 Fare: most importantly, pages containing unboxed data are not write-protected for a write barrier 14:40:21 oh you mean, everytime there is a per-page mprotect, the kernel splits the mapping and fragments the heap? 14:40:32 Zhivago: yeah, there are many possibilities 14:40:44 I'd need to look at clojure to see how they did their reader 14:40:47 Fare: while pages containing boxed data are write protected (until written to) 14:40:49 madnificent: it did at one point, but I don't think there are many active windows users of clbuild. You might be able to get away with it using cygwin 14:41:02 Fare: you'd need a very large number of generations for the contiguous allocation of *generations* to make any difference. 14:41:03 right 14:41:05 fe[nl]ix: seriously though, is what I'm saying completely insane or not? 14:41:25 ryepup: that's not really perfect... perhaps it would be wiser for me to distribute a package then... 14:41:33 and I think the way things work out during an actual gc, we actually maximize the fragmentation 14:41:35 so is the problem inherent with per-page write protection? 14:41:39 ryepup: thanks 14:41:48 ryepup: actually, did you get it running decently? 14:41:55 "maximize fragmentation" ? 14:42:04 madnificent: not on windows, no 14:42:08 right now the heap will end up looking like: UBUBUBUBUBUBUBUB 14:42:16 instead of UUUUUUUUBBBBBBBBB 14:42:18 mathrick: I think local readtables make sense, just comparing to other stuff 14:42:26 I can see issues with form-local reader macros and determining where exactly the form ends, but with a certain rules it could work 14:42:28 ryepup: ok, I'll learn from your previous tries then :) 14:42:40 I recall a mailing list archive or readme somewhere that basically said "it's theoretically possible, but outside the the use-case of everyone involved in the project" 14:42:52 I think we could be smarter about how data is arranged, and that'd fix a lot of the issues 14:42:54 -!- prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:43:01 jsnell: so we'd need something like widely separate address spaces for boxed and unboxed data? 14:43:16 mathrick: why? if the hacker messes up the syntax badly enough, it's their fault... The Customer Is Always Right. 14:43:22 mathrick: it's not at all insane. a non-interning reader would be very useful, but it's tricky to come up with a good spec, so please do try :) 14:43:33 mathrick, COLAs have that 14:43:43 lichtblau: b-t doesn't bind *print-pretty* 14:43:51 Fare: COLA being ...? I can almost recall, but not quite 14:44:05 madnificent: I never really attempted clbuild on windows. 14:44:07 doesn't #+ support imply a non-interning reader, already? 14:44:19 fe[nl]ix: yes, sorry, that was bogus. I'm asking about *PRINT-READABLY*, not *print-pretty*. 14:44:23 mathrick, the stuff from Ian Piumarta & VPRI.org 14:44:40 Fare: might not need to be widely separate, could be enough to have a preference for larger contiguous blocks of pages with similar attributes (without making the allocation regions larger) 14:45:24 Fare: I think I need a bit more concrete link to avoid mad googling 14:45:32 also, I haven't actually checked whether this really is the reason, just assuming 14:45:39 jsnell: if we pessimize fragmentation, it means that the number of mappings strongly constrains the total memory available. :( 14:45:55 mathrick: http://piumarta.com/software/cola/ 14:46:02 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has quit [] 14:46:04 thank you, my good man 14:46:04 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@70.88.151.157] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:46:06 I hadn't heard that people had trouble even after increasing the page sizes 14:46:50 lichtblau: you might need to update b-t. I used to wrap with-standard-io-syntax around new threads, but I disabled that months ago 14:46:56 fe[nl]ix: I know it ain't gonna be super-easy. The reader is probably the easy part, coming up with a way of enabling it for the willing without breaking old things will be hard 14:46:59 the assumption was that if a .5G heap worked fine with 4k pages, a 8GB heap should not have problems with 65k pages 14:47:06 I wonder why that isn't the case 14:47:14 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 14:47:34 *Xach* has 262k pages, still got ENOMEM 14:47:52 -!- bhav [n=user@210.212.85.57] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:48:01 mathrick, http://www.vpri.org/fonc_wiki/index.php/Main_Page 14:48:02 (ok, 256k pages) 14:48:02 might be interesting to get a dump of the gencgc page table when that happens 14:48:16 jsnell: is that something i can do in ldb? 14:48:56 Xach, you can cat /proc/$PID/maps 14:49:00 fe[nl]ix: The default comes from *default-special-bindings* in the bxthreads that I'm using, which I assumed to be a recent checkout. (But I wouldn't be surprised if I'm in the wrong darcs repo or something silly like that.) 14:49:22 Xach: yes, attach a gdb once you're under ldb 14:49:43 concorr [n=concorr@214.Red-88-6-241.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:47 hi 14:50:12 lichtblau: bt:*default-special-bindings* is NIL here 14:50:18 elliotstern [n=chatzill@129.21.82.198] has joined #lisp 14:50:42 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 14:50:45 lichtblau: the repo should be http://common-lisp.net/project/bordeaux-threads/darcs/bordeaux-threads/ 14:50:49 hmm... crap, page_table is no longer a statically sized array 14:51:40 Does anyone know who is maintaining ASDF-INSTALL these days? 14:51:41 rpg, memo from sykopomp: That makes sense. Disregard that, then :) P.S. - How was the meeting? 14:52:23 rpg: which one? 14:52:35 Xach: portable... 14:52:43 Gary King, IIRC. 14:52:51 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:52:53 rpg: either gwking, or nobody else 14:53:42 -!- rickardg [n=user@EGAWS2003.stu.lu.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:53:56 prg_ [n=prg@91.214.124.1] has joined #lisp 14:54:26 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has joined #lisp 14:54:48 Fare: aye, thanks. What exactly is that I should be looking at? Sorry for being dense, but the whole thing is kinda huge and not obviously related to CL 14:54:49 minion: memo for tcr: while discontinuity is down, I uploaded the source to . 14:54:50 Remembered. I'll tell tcr when he/she/it next speaks. 14:54:58 lispm [n=joswig@92.224.120.149] has joined #lisp 14:56:21 *rpg* beats his head on keyboard... 14:56:23 Xach: I think to dump the page table from gdb you'd do something like: print *page_table@32768 14:56:28 -!- francisco [n=fhc@81.193.87.240] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:56:55 My whole hours-long mess about directory pathnames due to :name = "" is down to a bug in an old version of ASDF-INSTALL. 14:57:14 fe[nl]ix: thank you. Sorry for the noise. Apparently I can't drive clbuild. 14:57:18 *concorr* alguien habla español? 14:57:27 Adlai` [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:57:32 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:58:12 concorr: #lisp.es, I believe. 14:58:23 thx xD 14:58:29 -!- Guest26465 is now known as danlei 14:58:32 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:58:59 -!- danlei is now known as Guest23158 14:59:43 -!- Guest23158 [n=user@217.226.252.91] has left #lisp 15:00:32 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 15:03:20 someone know lysp? 15:03:22 mathrick, it is not CL, but it has a system for building your own language with lexically-scoped syntax extensions 15:03:37 ahh 15:03:49 they have some Scheme, Smalltalk, Javascript dialects and more with that -- you might wanna read the papers 15:03:55 that sounds useful and kind of exactly like what I'd want 15:04:20 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 15:05:42 speaking of which, a micro-survey: if the new system was expressive enough to allow embedding, say, Javascript in CL easily, would that be a good thing or a bad thing? 15:06:20 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.93.32] has quit [Client Quit] 15:06:59 considering parenscript, I'm not sure the hypothetical would be an advance on what's already there. 15:07:23 yeah, JS might not be the best example 15:07:28 mathrick: Good. 15:07:56 mathrick: of course a good thing... it's always good to have more CL stuff floating around. But it might not be widely used if better tools are available 15:08:04 I mean... JS is practically a scheme, assuming you can see past all the crufty syntax. 15:08:14 *concorr* http://dpaste.com/69118/ i need a little bit help with push macro 15:08:16 Adlai: define "better tools" in this context? 15:08:43 I guess parenscript and the multitude of cl->*ml libraries 15:08:44 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:08:44 concorr: #scheme 15:09:01 concorr: this channel is about Common Lisp, see the topic. 15:09:20 http://piumarta.com/software/lysp 15:09:25 no lisp? 15:09:25 concorr: also, use lisppaste 15:09:31 rpg: http://common-lisp.net/~sionescu/u <- my script for recursively updating a source tree 15:09:33 regardless of whether you're in scheme or CL 15:09:35 We already have a push macro. Neener neener. 15:09:42 minion: tell concorr about lisppaste 15:09:42 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 15:10:06 It has very good syntax highlighting, and lets you alert #scheme (not #lisp !!) when you paste your scheme code. 15:10:15 concorr: like I said, Common Lisp. 15:10:35 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229141197.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:10:55 luis: im learning common lips with lysp interpreter 15:11:17 concorr: you're talking about monkeys in #human_beings 15:11:20 concorr: Is it a Common Lisp? 15:11:36 fe[nl]ix: I use mr to update multiple repositories. 15:11:43 sanxiyn: i dont know, im learning lisp now 15:11:55 concorr: anyway, there's no push macro in your paste. 15:12:15 sanxiyn: i go to programmin a tiny common lisp interpreter, lysp fork 15:12:16 concorr: the code you pasted looks like Scheme or a dialect based on it. 15:12:22 concorr: if you want to use common lisp, you should start with a well known CL implementation. 15:12:39 sbcl or clozure are good starting points. 15:12:40 concorr: So it's not a Common Lisp. 15:12:45 luis: yes, but if you know lisp... you can make the push macro for lysp interpreter 15:12:49 concorr: what are your motivations in learning Lisp? based on those you should choose CL or Scheme 15:13:12 or Clojure. 15:13:17 Adlai: it seems that he is implementing a CL interpreter in Lysp. 15:13:27 Fade: im using sbcl, but im programming a tiny interpreter for shell 15:13:35 fe[nl]ix: http://kitenet.net/~joey/code/mr/ (Almost certainly better written than your hack :) 15:13:45 Adlai: What are the motivation differences in what one should learn (just curious)? 15:13:51 concorr: in that case, look at the push macro in the sbcl source tree to see how it was done there. 15:13:54 Apart from updating, you can do status checking and diff. 15:13:58 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:14:36 lysp appears to be a scheme interpreter. 15:15:00 Fade: good idea, but with help this work is one minute ;) i use time for more dificult isues 15:15:09 sanxiyn: it's a big blob of perl. I doubt that 15:15:28 concorr: I think your horse is behind your cart. :) 15:15:35 fe[nl]ix: Well, Joey is one of those few people who can write decent Perl. 15:15:51 Fade: i go to learn scheme for know diferences ;) 15:16:57 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:17:09 TDT: I'm thinking of a statement made by pg before he started hating CL 15:17:21 fe[nl]ix: Thanks. Unfortunately, in a lot of cases (because we're trying to ship code), we try to sync up with releases, and I don't really know how to track those... 15:18:19 TDT: basically, that CL is for building things, while Scheme is for admiring the abstract mathematical side of Lisp 15:18:25 Fade: wikipedia... scheme is a lisp dialect :P 15:18:25 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-82-32.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 15:18:32 Adlai: Heh. 15:18:33 concorr: that's true. 15:18:40 concorr: yes, and English is a dialect of Old German. 15:18:40 Adlai: heh, interesting way of thinking about it. 15:18:50 German is also a dialect of Old German. 15:18:54 but this channel is about Common Lisp, which is a completely different dialect. 15:18:56 concorr: On the other hand this channel is not really about all Lisp dialects. 15:18:57 English /= German 15:18:59 rpg: in that case better do like Hans: make a private repository where you import(fork) every dependency you have 15:19:19 okflo [n=user@91-115-90-70.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:19:25 fe[nl]ix: Oh, yes, we do that. It's a matter of keeping that repo up-to-date. 15:19:54 -!- prg_ [n=prg@91.214.124.1] has quit ["leaving"] 15:20:12 concorr: and if you're actually using scheme to implement your interpreter, you'd be better off with a well known scheme like tinyscheme or guile or mzscheme. 15:20:23 StumpWM question, since #stumpwm is silent: 15:20:43 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:20:53 rpg: then you want to know when new releases appear ? 15:21:15 Emacs is currently giving me fewer columns per fullscreen frame than it did back in GNOME. I could change that through the default face, but is there a [better] way to do that through StumpWM? 15:21:47 fe[nl]ix: Yes, it's not really a technial problem, but a management one. 15:21:54 Adlai: what is stump drawing in the leftover space? 15:22:28 Fade: the emacs frame is maximized. 15:22:30 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:22:33 attila_lendvai: ping 15:22:36 Adlai: maybe change the *border-width* or something in stump. 15:22:46 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 15:23:11 I'm thinking that this would be something like changing the default font size for StumpWM... 15:23:18 does that mean anything thuogh? 15:23:19 Fade: yes, lysp seems a scheme interpreter 15:23:25 Adlai: I doubt that would affect emacs. 15:23:40 sellout: ok, I'll just change the default face. 15:23:40 rpg: I have a directory with the live repos of all the projects I need, and run my script every few days, after which I read the logs looking for comments such as "release $foo". very primitive :D 15:23:48 concorr: and judging by the state of it's tree, not a very good one. 15:24:14 but looking at your pasted code, you're going to get a lot more help in #scheme. 15:24:37 -!- Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 15:24:38 Fade: no problem, i only need a core implementation for continuation with my fork 15:24:48 kami-: pong 15:25:05 Fade: yes, is right, thx ;) 15:25:23 n'p 15:26:55 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@82.57.182.240] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 15:27:07 attila_lendvai: Hi. I want to have a slot which contains the concatenation of last-name and first-name of a person, but I want it to be in the DB, i.e. NOT a :computed-as . Is there a way of doing this? 15:27:44 attila_lendvai: I need it in the DB to be able to search for it. 15:28:10 kami-: something like ROFL provides that abstraction. 15:28:36 Fade: Rolling On the Floor Laughing? 15:28:45 minion: tell kami- about rofl 15:28:45 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``rofl''. 15:28:48 relational objects for lisp 15:28:53 hm. 15:28:57 kami-: nothing magical for now that does that automatically. you need to merge the computed-class and persistent-class metaclasses, which is not trivial and haven't been done yet (need to store the computed-class state in the db) 15:29:00 it's in clbuild. 15:29:07 fe[nl]ix: Thank you. That's a very good idea. I will see if I can reverse engineer the right set of repositories to create such a facility. 15:29:08 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has quit [] 15:29:42 Fade: how come minion doesn't know about it? 15:29:59 kami-: part of interestingly-named libs :P 15:30:00 kami-: but you could try installing :after methods on the setters for the name slots, and stuff like that 15:30:06 I guess he hasn't been taught. I don't know if it's used much outside drewc's own work. 15:30:18 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:30:21 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-14199.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 15:30:34 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 15:30:38 there's a rough tutorial for rofl here: http://www.deepsky.com/~fade/roflcopter 15:30:46 OIC, there's no CLiki page about it. 15:31:21 attila_lendvai: that's a good idea. Apart from that, I'd need to make a custom query and couldn't use the standard-object-filter, right? 15:31:25 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [No route to host] 15:31:57 -!- HET2 [i=diman@128.131.95.22] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:32:07 Fade, Adlai: thank you. I'll have a look at it. But, I'm using cl-perec, already. 15:32:23 kami-: why? just add the full-name slot as a string and try to make sure it's always updated when the first/last names are updated 15:32:39 s/as a string/with string type/ 15:33:43 attila_lendvai: will give it a try. thank you. How is the standard-object-filter is supposed to behave after hitting enter? I don't get any results, just an empty page. 15:34:17 -!- okflo [n=user@91-115-90-70.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has left #lisp 15:34:46 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:34:48 kami-: dunno. i guess the search should be carried out, result displayed, or a message if there were no results 15:35:15 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-6-134.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:35:20 attila_lendvai: then, I'm probably doing sth wrong. 15:35:22 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-47-243.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:35:40 kami-: could be bugs also 15:36:01 attila_lendvai: does the standard-obj-filter understand wildcards? 15:37:45 kami-: are we talking about the meta-gui component for searching? it has a button for :type string slots that can be set to "~", which means a regexp or LIKE % query (iirc there is/was a RELIKE bug in postgres and we temporarily switched it to good old LIKE) 15:39:34 attila_lendvai: yes, I mean that component. I thought s-o-f was its name. 15:40:52 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:43:33 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 15:44:00 minion: forget my memos 15:44:00 OK, I threw it out. 15:46:24 -!- proq` is now known as proq 15:46:40 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:46:59 attila_lendvai: I create a filter for person with (make-filter 'person), but after entering a search string and hitting enter, I get "The function HU.DWIM.WUI::BUILD-FILTER-QUERY is undefined." 15:48:04 danlei [n=user@pD9E2FC5B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:17 francisco [n=fhc@bl4-87-240.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 15:49:02 Capitao_Adhoc: caem-te no colo? Imagina a inveja que tenho de ti! 15:49:09 Samy [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:12 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 15:49:42 What was the function to check the current usage of memory? I forgot. I use SBCL. 15:49:51 room? 15:50:15 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.15] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:50:15 serichsen: oh yes, I think it's the one. Thanks! 15:51:11 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:51:55 -!- sanxiyn [n=tinuviel@118.219.169.203] has left #lisp 15:54:29 -!- ivan-kanis [n=user@if02t2-89-83-137-164.d4.club-internet.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:54:47 -!- valvola [n=fabiovio@193.204.78.80] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:55:24 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:55:59 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 15:57:10 HET2 [i=diman@128.131.95.22] has joined #lisp 15:58:14 -!- jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:58:52 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:58:59 Greetings. 15:59:33 tmh: hello 15:59:35 Fade: ... tinyscheme ... good start point for me ;) thx 15:59:52 kami-: then there's a problem while loading wui. it's defined in the cl-perec integration file... 16:00:08 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 16:00:32 Is there a way to know a memory size of an array? 16:00:38 -!- Posterdati_ [n=tapioca@host238-8-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:00:40 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 16:01:23 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-41a099b76bbe037a] has joined #lisp 16:01:33 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:09 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 16:03:20 -!- concorr [n=concorr@214.Red-88-6-241.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["leaving"] 16:05:47 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.15] has joined #lisp 16:07:17 tomoyuki28jp: we have a weak, sbcl-only try here: http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi/darcsweb.cgi?r=cl-dwim-wui;a=headblob;f=/src/util/object-size.lisp 16:07:29 it should be part of sb-introspect 16:07:33 cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has joined #lisp 16:07:36 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.15] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:07:41 attila_lendvai: thanks a lot! 16:08:14 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.15] has joined #lisp 16:08:27 you can guess size of an array, if you don't count what it points to 16:08:53 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.15] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:10:59 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:11:36 -!- Ogedei [n=user@85.178.212.14] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:12:18 attila_lendvai: Which one is the function to check a memory size of an object? 16:13:02 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:13:49 jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 16:14:45 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:15:14 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@129.21.82.198] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:18:30 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 16:21:33 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-8b0784766d40773d] has joined #lisp 16:21:54 kami- pasted "wui:with-new-query-variable" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83858 16:22:06 tomoyuki28jp: what do you mean by 'memory size of an object'? (let* ((a (make-array 1024 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))) (b (cons a nil)) (c (setf (cdr b) b)) (memory-size c))) <---- what does that return? size of a cons? size of the cons + the array? Infinity? 16:22:46 attila_lendvai: I indeed have an error (cf. the paste) 16:23:57 drewc: our %iterate-descendant-objects has two modes: reachable and retained (uses a seen hashtable) 16:24:12 tomoyuki28jp: object-allocated-size is the entry point 16:24:19 drewc: sorry, actually it's a hash table. 16:25:37 kami-: unpull this patch from cl-def: "More liberal handling of literal AST nodes for qq in with-macros." 16:25:59 attila_lendvai: will do. 16:26:09 attila_lendvai: I couldn't find object-allocated-size in sb-introspect package. I need to install cl-dwim-wui? 16:26:39 tomoyuki28jp: still doesn't matter much .. is it the size of the table itself you want or the size of all the objects it points to? in the latter case .. what exactly do you mean by that? ... say my cons C is stored in your hash table.... same issue. 16:27:21 tomoyuki28jp: no, just steal the code you can find in the link i've pasted. it *should* be part of sb-introcpect, but it is not yet 16:28:01 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 16:28:02 attila_lendvai: i have a few hacks lying around as well for when i was tracking down some memory-use related issues ... but i knew the answer to my question of 'what do i mean by size of an object' :) 16:28:03 tomoyuki28jp: what you need is in the object-allocated-size/sbcl function, at the array branch of the typecase... 16:29:01 milanj [n=milan@212.200.192.6] has joined #lisp 16:29:34 drewc: well, i guess you do... i wasn't sure whom to address what i wrote. :) maybe i should have just thrown in to the channel... 16:31:24 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:31:51 attila_lendvai: fair enough :) 16:32:10 attila_lendvai: I got this error from object-allocated-size/sbcl: unknown type specifier: FUNCALLABLE-STANDARD-OBJECT. 16:32:15 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:33:31 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:35:56 ... There's a FUNCALLABLE-STANDARD-OBJECT; is there a funcallable-object standard? 16:36:25 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:37:47 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:40:54 drewc: the size of all the objects it points to 16:41:22 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:44:45 how do I lock the workstation in stumpwm? 16:45:39 Adlai: "because #stumpwm is not active" isn't a great reason to ask that question here. 16:46:17 Adlai: Same way you do in any other WM: xscreensaver -lock. 16:46:28 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:46:43 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 16:47:23 Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #lisp 16:48:41 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:48:55 Ogedei [n=user@e178223138.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:49:21 well, GNOME uses gnome-screensaver 16:49:57 C-t xlock 16:50:27 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:52:09 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.18] has quit ["Valete!"] 16:52:26 WaGE [n=WaGE@70.23.78.182] has joined #lisp 16:53:07 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-6-134.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:53:09 krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-44-4.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:54:11 -!- HET2 [i=diman@128.131.95.22] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:54:32 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:54:41 -!- beach [n=user@90.60.124.158] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:55:36 tomoyuki28jp: what if it points to itself? 16:55:51 drewc: oh... 16:56:06 mathrick: Still here? 16:56:47 tomoyuki28jp: or, alternately .. if ROOM say you are using 200mb of ram, would you be surprised if the size of 2 hashtabkes comes out to 300mb of ram usage? 16:57:04 (because they point to the same objects) 16:57:14 tcr: indeed 16:57:38 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:57:47 mathrick: Still care about localizing a reader macro? 16:58:09 drewc: is it really that difficult to just keep track of circular structures, though?... 16:58:36 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:59:03 sykopomp: no, not really.. you use a hash table :) 16:59:30 now .. what size is that hash table? :) 16:59:52 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:59:52 42 17:00:00 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:00:02 tcr: yes, if possible 17:00:49 mathrick: There's a very easy, and elegant way: Make your reader macro expand to a list (my-reader-macro :frob foo whatever), and then write a macro with-my-syntax which defines a local macro MY-READER-MACRO via MACROLET 17:01:09 and define a global macro for MY-READER-MACRO which throws an error 17:01:11 drewc: one would expect it to be the total memory size of all the data that the structure you're examining points to. Matching that data against ROOM isn't necessarily something I care about. 17:01:35 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 17:01:48 tcr: nice 17:02:00 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:06 That doesn't work for all possible kinds of reader macros, only for those which are not supposed to be useful in a non-evaluated context 17:02:14 tcr: and how does that prevent trampling others' reader macros? 17:02:40 That's another problem. 17:02:48 Luckily, I solved it for you already. 17:03:08 I think you understood my question differently than I did 17:03:08 http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/darcs/editor-hints/named-readtables/ 17:03:09 tcr: oh? 17:03:21 well, the thing I want to get is 17:03:24 ...hold on a sec 17:05:43 -!- tic_ [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:06:00 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:08:23 mathrick pasted "Local reader macros" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83863 17:08:27 tcr: like that 17:08:30 sykopomp: ha, and i'd expect it to be twice the size of my data. 17:09:11 mathrick: question: when will SPECIAL-FORM be evaluated? 17:09:15 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:09:54 drewc: hmm? At the same time it'd otherwise be 17:10:01 mathrick: Yes, make [ ... ] expand to (bracket "what comes between the [ and ]"), then define SPECIAL-FORM as (MACROLET ((bracket (string) (parse string ...))) ,@body) 17:10:59 tcr: that's a nice clean solution... i really like! 17:11:01 tcr: yes, but that doesn't solve the fundamental issue: I don't want to install the syntax for #\[ globally, I want it only if it's contained in special-form 17:11:02 It's the way you can have (with-sql-syntax ...), and (with-array-syntax ...), in the latter [a i j k l] is shortcut for AREF 17:11:21 oh 17:11:29 I feel like repeating myself. That's another problem. 17:11:29 well, I guess 17:11:35 tcr: no, I misread you 17:11:38 mathrick: the fundamental issue is just that... reader macros are expanded at READ-TIME. 17:11:46 Luckily, I solved that for you, too. Have a look at named-readtables; they provide a namespace for reader-macros 17:11:49 drewc: as designed! 17:12:02 tcr: that looks nice :) 17:12:10 drewc: it's no different from ordinary macros and compile-time 17:12:16 mathrick: right ... but macros are expanded/executed long after they are read... so you can't have a macro that installs a readtable. 17:12:41 drewc: oh, I know that. That's why I asked about it, and that's why I proposed it for CLtL3 17:13:00 because it needs deeper hackery, like local readtables and stuff 17:13:44 mathrick: i'm not sure i saw your proposal... how did it differ from named-readtables? 17:14:28 I think we should give mathrick a few minutes to digest the new input. 17:14:33 yes, please 17:15:23 *drewc* just uses #.(enable-foo-reader) ... #.(disable-foo-reader) 17:15:42 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:37 then again, i don't use reader macros often.. the only one i ever saw that i really liked was kaz's non-interning reader 17:17:11 *Xach* saw an inline math via $ ... $ recently 17:17:16 Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:35 Yeah I want $....$ to use to allow for tex-like input, then use auctex to render it nicely 17:17:41 executable mathematics basically 17:17:50 drewc: okay, so named readtables allow you to say (in-readtable) and have it work fo the current file / until changed 17:18:02 current file 17:18:59 drewc: whereas local readtables would install the requested reader macros automatically every time the form is encountered, and for its duration only, regardless of whether the user put (in-readtable :foo) above or not 17:19:35 I'm not sure if my explanations are sufficient, but I'm fairly certain that is not something named readtables can do ATM 17:19:36 Yes, I showed you how to do that. 17:20:01 tcr: yes, but that needs a coordinated effort so that everyone who wants brackets does the (bracket ...) expansion 17:20:16 ie. something for CLtL3 or a CDR or similar 17:20:27 tcr: have you seen epigram? fortress? 17:20:32 That's true. So what you want to propose a standardized expansion for [], and {..} 17:20:34 tcr: is there a way to add custom indentation/highlighting rules to slime? custom inspection stuff? 17:20:57 how does it reset the readtable at the end of the file? 17:20:58 tcr: no. I want to propose a standardised expansion for whatever reader macro is possible to install 17:21:15 sykopomp: Depends on what you mean by that. For inspection, you can specialize on SWANK::EMACS-INSPECT. It uses a very easy sexp-based markup scheme 17:21:28 Fare: *readtable* is bound by compile-file/load 17:21:29 Fare: http://l1sp.org/cl/load 17:21:45 Fare: I read the Epigram paper. 17:22:09 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Success] 17:23:09 tcr: oh, I didn't know this was standard behavior. Goodness gracious it is... Though the readtable object can be destructively modified... 17:23:14 tcr: also, having it standardised would allow for less boilerplate than remembering to do the SYMBOL-MACROLET trick, though that of course can be macroified itself 17:23:23 Fare: that's by design 17:23:33 tcr: emacs-inspect sounds fantastic for the inspection part. Thanks! What I mean by custom-indentation/highlighting is that I'm working on a lib with a macro that works like defmethod, with special indentation rules when qualifiers are present. It would be nice to highlight the library's forms, in general, and getting proper indentation would also be good. 17:23:34 if you set *readtable*, you do it locally 17:23:47 if you modify it, you're side-effecting the global environment 17:23:57 mathrick: sorry .. you want to standardize the expansions of every character in the readable? 17:24:00 tcr: is there also some entry point to customizing the behavior of M-.? 17:25:04 sykopomp: There's some initial work for setting indentation information from Common Lisp in contrib/swank-indentation.lisp. 17:25:08 drewc: who cares how that works under the hood? It should be possible to do it locally in a way that ensures sane co-operation for every character in the readtable 17:26:19 mathrick: i care ... it does actually have to work after all, and i don't see how what you are proposing could 'work' 17:26:55 sykopomp: No you implementation should provide such a hook for M-. See https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/313242 17:27:32 drewc: I'm proposing there be a standard mechanism to do that. If implementations support that, you can do a lot better than rewrite everything to SYMBOL-MACROLET 17:27:44 sykopomp: if you use slime-fontifying-fu, all form beginning with a symbol like define-foo are fontified the same as defun is fontified 17:28:13 tcr: ooh, that sounds useful, I was just about to comment how it was useful that lisppaste did that 17:28:36 tcr: wonderful. Thanks :) 17:28:42 willb [n=wibenton@compsci-wifi-39.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 17:28:48 it also includes with- symbols, and check-foo symbols are fontified like check-type 17:29:09 mathrick: you're proposing that there be a mechanism, but not what that mechanism should be.... i'm countering that your proposal does't propose anything! :) 17:30:01 drewc: of course, because I didn't have the time to think up a concrete proposal yet. And you asked what I want, not how I see it working, so I explained dutifully :) 17:30:04 concorr [n=concorr@214.Red-88-6-241.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:18 And I'm doubtful about any such proposal; it would conflate issues which are orthogonal in Common Lisp. 17:30:29 tcr: could you elaborate on that? 17:30:33 hi 17:30:46 I don't see what here is being conflated that was previously orthogonal 17:32:06 mathrick: as i understand it you want standard expansions for reader macros... right? 17:32:28 Sorry got to do other stuff, perhaps drewc sees my point and can elaborate. I honestly do not understand what gripes you've got with what I described above. It's a demonstration of how nicely orthogonal layers in Common Lisp can interact together to provide syntactical abstraction power. 17:32:34 drewc: you mean implementation-wise? No, I don't want anything yet because I had no time to think about any viable approach so far 17:32:53 tcr: I want an extension of what macros can already do with sexps 17:33:00 mathrick: well, that's my point. 17:33:14 drewc: then you'll have to wait a bit before I can answer that 17:33:42 mathrick: given some time, and thinking, you'll discover that your approach is not entirely viable, as i understand it... you've been somewhat vague. 17:34:25 tcr: a macro can parse and expand the sexps it's passed in any way it likes. If FOO is a macro, I don't have to call (enable-foo) before I'm allowed to use it. The same way macros should be allowed to affect the reader syntax locally in a way transparent for the user 17:34:40 drewc: I'm still not sure we're on the same page 17:34:49 mathrick: reader macros are not macros... they two are completely orthagonal... macros work on sexps, reader macros work on streams. 17:34:52 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:34:57 Indeed 17:35:14 Fare's summary of COLA was pretty succint yet accurate: I want lexically-scoped syntaxes 17:35:45 drewc: that doesn't mean it's not useful or desirable to have per-form reader macros 17:35:50 I'm aware they are distinct mechanism 17:35:56 Sure you can get them now. 17:36:00 mathrick: what is a form? 17:36:16 tcr: only by an ad-hoc protocol which no-one follows 17:36:32 drewc: that was one of the issues I mentioned pretty near the start 17:36:36 Yeah want to write a library for people. Haven't come around 17:37:06 drewc: but that's no different really than allowing people to modify the readtable, and we do 17:37:43 mathrick: the point i'm trying to make is that there are no forms until they are read... so what is a per-form reader? 17:37:55 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-125-158.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:38:00 Good evening. 17:38:28 -!- masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:39:08 mathrick, readtables are probably not what you want 17:39:14 milanj- [n=milan@93.87.141.215] has joined #lisp 17:39:16 Right. 17:39:21 drewc: that's not that difficult to do. If the reader reads in what's a valid head for one of the special-syntaxed forms, it gives the control to that form. And the form is expected to be able to terminate itself 17:39:33 Fare: I'm aware of that, and it's also what I said 17:39:36 especially since the performance of fine-grained readtable changes is not guaranteed, and some operations are not available. 17:40:05 mathrick: how does that differ from a reader macro? 17:40:24 drewc: a reader macro has no way to define its score 17:40:26 *scope 17:40:31 it's necessarily global 17:40:54 mathrick: #.(enable-reader-macro) ... #.(disable-reader-macro) 17:41:11 Reader macros are too powerful, they can do arbitrary stuff. I think it may make more sense to first have a very primary tokenizer run on source-text, then have some reader-macro facility which works on the token stream. 17:41:16 drewc: that's *you*, drewc, putting it there in the source 17:41:22 I don't think we're on the same page 17:41:29 mathrick: who is putting your magic reader forms in the source? 17:41:44 *sigh*, that's what I want a mechanism for 17:42:10 mathrick: the reason it seems you are going in circles is because you are not looking at the big picture. 17:42:27 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:42:33 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.7.237] has joined #lisp 17:42:34 no, I'm going in circles because you're asking circular questions 17:42:45 drewc: look at the paste I gave 17:42:54 which part is unclear as to how it should work? 17:43:09 mathrick: all of it. 17:43:28 mathrick: does the reader for #\( handle it? 17:43:29 mathrick: It's any more composable than the #.(enable) ... #.(disable) stuff 17:43:34 ivan-kanis [n=user@if02t2-89-83-137-164.d4.club-internet.fr] has joined #lisp 17:43:44 You can't have macros around SPECIAL-FORM and still have your reader-macros work 17:43:45 tcr: is that a question? 17:43:49 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-67-240-162-85.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:43:54 but yes, you could have a one read-table that redirects all input to your parser. 17:43:57 mathrick: what advantage does it offer over #.(enable...)? 17:44:03 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 17:44:04 -!- ivan-kanis [n=user@if02t2-89-83-137-164.d4.club-internet.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:44:06 mathrick: Forgot to negate that sentence 17:44:16 drewc: that you don't have to put it yourself, obviously 17:44:31 mathrick: who put (SPECIAL-FORM ...) there... the compiler? 17:44:37 Fare: That's how clpython does it. Redirects all input to a parser of Python source text. 17:44:46 drewc: what we have now is as if (defmacro foo ...) required me to do (enable-foo) each time I want to use FOO 17:44:58 drewc: no, lemme annotate it then 17:45:28 Fare: And no, you can't easily that in portable code, except for grovelling through all of char-code-limit 17:45:29 ivan-kanis [n=user@if02t2-89-83-137-164.d4.club-internet.fr] has joined #lisp 17:45:37 -!- davazp [n=user@79.153.148.56] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:45:40 Fare: and by that blowing up the readtable. 17:45:58 tcr: indeed 17:46:20 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.15] has joined #lisp 17:46:48 mathrick: so what you are proposing is that we used (SPECIAL-FORM ..) instead of #.(special-form ....) ? 17:47:20 drewc: I don't see how #. helps with anything here 17:47:36 drewc: It's a hook for #\( 17:47:53 tcr: yeah, that's the only way i can figure it. 17:48:09 if non-portable code is needed, one might as well intercept READ 17:48:18 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.192.6] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:48:35 Jabberwock [n=jens@port-14199.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 17:48:36 fare: "intercept"? 17:49:11 advise around, change the fdefinition, etc. 17:49:29 an extendable #\( would be interesting enough ... you could do lisp-1 like things etc. 17:49:34 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:49:53 I don't think you need that. I think you can get by lisp-1 by lambda-macros 17:50:04 s/get by/get to/ 17:50:22 -!- francisco [n=fhc@bl4-87-240.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Success] 17:50:22 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:47 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:50:49 francisco [n=fhc@81.193.87.240] has joined #lisp 17:51:27 Anyway I'm out. 17:51:30 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:53:06 mathrick annotated #83863 "Local reader macros annotated and expanded" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83863#1 17:53:16 drewc: take a look at that 17:53:31 mathrick: #. helps you there by allowing you to evaluate something at read time ... like say a form that installs a new readtable and READ's the form inside #.(special-form..) before removing it... 17:53:50 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 17:53:54 drewc: yes, but SPECIAL-FORM is just a macro 17:54:04 and again, the *user* has to remember to do it themselves 17:54:26 mathrick: then it cannnot operate at read time... that's how macros work. 17:54:46 read what I pasted please 17:55:04 mathrick: i have... how do you expect it to work? 17:55:26 drewc: I COME UP WITH A PROPOSAL LATER, AS I SAID PREVIOUSLY 17:55:47 ie. with a concrete proposal with all the details 17:55:56 it requires modifying the reader obviously 17:56:11 the standard one, that's why it needs implemention support 17:56:37 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:51 no... you can just install a macro on #\( to get the behaviour you want ... but what we've all been trying to get at is that it's the wrong way to solve whatever problem you are trying to solve. 17:57:07 drewc: it's not *that* difficult, if PLT can have swappable syntaxes, so can we 17:57:14 drewc: and it's wrong why exactly? 17:57:40 drewc: maybe what you want is rahter the trick recently published by kpreid 17:57:46 s/drewc/mathrick/ 17:57:54 Fare: link please? 17:58:03 http://kpreid.livejournal.com/14713.html 17:58:31 no readtable or reader madness involved 17:58:32 drewc: it's stupid and limiting that I can have macros transform the syntax however they want in a composable way, but reader macros are winner-takes-all and lead to clashes 17:58:46 syntax is just as much the characters you use as it is the resulting sexps 17:58:56 mathrick: you are still conflating macros with read macros.. 17:59:09 if you want a different syntax, use a different READER! 17:59:37 drewc: No. I am pointing to the fact that I, as the user, don't care if it's macros or reader macros. I want extensible syntax and it's useful to have BOTH composable 18:00:00 once again, skip the CL reader -- 18:00:08 you don't need it at all 18:00:08 mathrick: that's fine.. but that's not how CL works. 18:00:17 no CL reader, no need for cheating the CL reader 18:00:43 mathrick: so what you want is your own reader.... this isn't all that hard, just use the one from SACLA. 18:00:46 -!- dalton is now known as Dr_Pacheco 18:00:58 drewc: and that helps my *users* how? 18:01:04 they still need to install a special reader 18:01:09 so we're back to square one 18:01:22 mathrick: and your solution is better because? 18:01:25 if you refuse to use it, fine, but that doesn't mean there aren't valid use-cases 18:01:49 drewc: because it allows to transform the character syntax in a way similarly flexible to sexp syntax 18:02:07 mathrick: conflating the two continously is not going to make them the same thing. 18:02:09 seriously, what you're saying is "it's bad because it's not how it is right now" 18:02:32 drewc: I'm not conflating anything. I'm pointing to the fact there are times when you want both to work in concert 18:02:34 mathrick, who are your users? 18:02:41 mathrick, what do you want to expose to them? 18:02:44 mathrick: putting words in my mouth is not a good way to convince me your ideas have any merits. 18:03:03 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:03:03 mathrick, if you want a new language that compiles to CL, why not take the same approach as kpreid ? 18:03:06 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:03:28 Fare: myself. I'm endlessly annoyed by having to add (enable-sql-syntax) (enable-whatever-syntax) in my source files, and I'm annoyed by the fact I can't use two libs with [] readers without it crashing abd burning 18:03:43 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:03:46 drewc: neither is you putting ideas in my head 18:04:11 I'm perfectly aware that they're different things. You are not required to believe me, but that isn't getting anywhere 18:04:20 mathrick, use XCVB :) 18:04:28 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:04:37 mathrick, then you can modify the syntax all you want -- it won't affect other files 18:04:39 mathrick: sorry for trying to help.. in the future i'll /ignore you. 18:05:02 mathrick, well, you have to (in-package ...) too 18:05:19 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:20 mcspiff [n=user@DE8DC.VPN.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 18:05:36 so why not start every file with #.(mathrick:magic-syntax) ? 18:05:37 drewc: can't you just accept that you don't see my goal? I've been trying to explain it as best I can, but it's not getting anywhere. If you me stating that fact offends you, I'm sorry 18:06:01 Fare: because my users have to remember about doing it, which is the whole point? 18:06:31 Fare: and still, mathrick:magic-syntax will conflict with fare:magic-syntax 18:06:51 what's wrong with remembering (mathric:magic) instead of (in-package :mathrick) ? 18:07:04 so ever so slight "lisp success" story.. there are 5 students currently in the room. Implementating the exact same algorithim in everything from c, c++, java, java processing and lisp. The lisp solution was done first, code is more robust, with a test bench. No one else has anything running. 18:07:17 well then you define a one, extensible mathrick:magic-syntax that I will use 18:07:22 the lisp is also shorter 18:07:59 Fare: there's only one package I'm in, and it's relevant to *MY* app. Whereas I have to remember (fare:magic) because I used *YOUR* lib. And then (attila:magic1) (attila:magic2) (attila:magic3) because I used his libs 18:08:21 don't forget (dlowe:magick) 18:08:33 Fare: that's what I'm trying to do, but I got yelled at because it's wrong and not how it works 18:08:46 anyway, I'm off to grab some food 18:08:52 *pinterface* wonders why cl-syntax-sugar's readtime-wrapper isn't good enough for mathrick other than not being in the default *readtable*. 18:09:16 pinterface: because his memory is not very good. 18:09:24 mcspiff: give the Lisp user a huge reward 18:09:24 pinterface: it might be perfectly fine for what I need if I can get it into the default reader 18:09:33 -!- rudi [n=rudi@mail.ist.tu-graz.ac.at] has quit ["Client exciting"] 18:09:44 mathrick, you get yelled at because you seem to want to do it with the CL READER 18:09:45 lispm: I like to think lisp is its own huge reward 18:09:52 lispm: Its yours truly. I figure being smug on irc was reward enough. 18:09:59 while all you have to do is -- switch to your own reader, expose its API. 18:10:00 haha 18:10:03 great! 18:10:19 how do we know that your code is really better??? ;-) 18:10:28 Fare: and my users will still have to do the exact same dance to be able to benefit from that 18:10:40 well, the others have no running code? 18:10:54 there's no going around this dance while remaining a CL program 18:11:01 if you want no dance -- go the kpreid way 18:11:26 Fare: not CL today. But you'll notice I mentioned CLtL3. That's 3 as in three, which is more than two 18:11:27 others are following Greenspun's tenth rule 18:11:36 mcspiff: I'm waiting until this is a program format in popular commercial TV 18:11:47 mcspiff: five candidates programming 18:12:00 lispm: aha Survivor: Turning island? 18:12:13 *Turing? 18:12:31 mathrick: oi yes 18:12:44 I always wonder why there are no quiz shows for geeks 18:12:45 ok, food 18:12:48 mathrick, implement it first -- you'll standardize it later 18:12:57 Fare: obviously 18:12:57 Programmers glued to their chair, have to program bots to feed and deliver them! :-) 18:12:57 -!- ivan-kanis [n=user@if02t2-89-83-137-164.d4.club-internet.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:13:00 to implement it, choose between the attila way and the kpreid way 18:13:11 OR -- just adopt PLT Scheme 18:13:15 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 18:13:27 and instead write a family of CL frontend syntaxes for it 18:13:39 ivan-kanis [n=user@if02t2-89-83-137-164.d4.club-internet.fr] has joined #lisp 18:13:57 I'm surprised there isn't a CL front-end for scheme already 18:13:57 Fare: what about semantics? 18:14:16 what would it do? 18:14:23 run CL in Scheme? 18:14:31 Butterfly CL 18:14:50 Is it conformant? 18:14:54 stassats`, between Swindle and various other hacks, all the CL semantics can be readily implemented on PLT -- but it's a pain to get it 100% correct 18:15:02 Zhivago: abandoned 18:15:11 (moreover, for any given program, you might not want the last 10%) 18:15:31 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:15:38 The last ten percent of any reform is the most difficult to achieve. Moreover, it is often harmful. -- John McCarthy 18:15:44 Zhivago: it was BBN's Common Lisp implementation on top of Butterfly Scheme for the Butterfly multiprocessor 18:15:48 ;-) 18:16:00 Was it significantly conformant? 18:16:09 CLtL1, IIRC 18:16:47 asksol [n=ask@47.247.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:16:55 how significant it was conformant, I can't say, but it looks like a non-trivial implementation 18:17:00 I could watch correct output all day... 18:17:10 haha 18:17:31 what would be interesting would be a family of CL-like languages to make the migration of code easy to PLT 18:17:44 off of PLT 18:18:03 i.e. a fully conformant thing, one w/o the readtable madness, one w/ much less CL-style introspection, etc. 18:18:10 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:18:23 rpg [n=rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has joined #lisp 18:19:05 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-117-37.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:21:14 The fully conformant part kind of implies readtable madness ... 18:21:57 of course 18:22:05 but few CL programs actually use it 18:22:18 I've seen a million line of Lisp code that doesn't. 18:22:24 Indeed. 18:22:34 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.15] has quit ["Leaving..."] 18:22:36 I've seen a million that does 18:22:50 Oh, stop lying. :p 18:22:54 -!- francisco [n=fhc@81.193.87.240] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:23:02 and I've theoretized in my XCVB paper why that would be. 18:23:24 let's start with CCL 18:23:25 lispm: presumably, there are only a few hundred lines that do, that could be ported. 18:23:40 it uses the readmacros for the FFI 18:23:42 to whichever better reader interface is designed 18:23:44 everywhere 18:23:48 I know nothing about the readtable madness, but could it be categorized as something you generally don't need, but when you need it, you really need it? 18:24:07 and it's not hard to implement, either. 18:24:43 on the Lispm the readtables are for examples used to differentiate between different Lisp dialects 18:24:44 but it might be a pain to integrate CL code with code from whichever new Lisp you want to use 18:25:11 ZetaLisp has its own ideas about syntax, then CL for example 18:25:28 there is the infix reader 18:25:32 lispm: is it more than the package name mapping? 18:26:04 I think so 18:26:16 it starts with numbers in base 8 18:27:24 in any case -- to migrate CL applications to a new lisp dialect, you sometimes want some aspect to follow CL semantics, and sometimes want it to follow the semantics of your new dialect. 18:27:28 WaGE_ [n=WaGE@pool-141-155-124-124.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:57 by implementing the whole of CL in your new lisp, you can automate the conversion of code 18:28:11 ANSI CL has its own readtable 18:28:19 by making that implementation modular, you can incrementally combine the old and the new language. 18:29:42 the command processor uses readtables 18:29:47 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-67-240-162-85.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:29:59 it has a C readtable, too 18:30:27 -!- photon is now known as lol 18:30:36 if it's C, is it a readtable? 18:30:37 -!- lol is now known as photon 18:30:55 it's for parsing C data 18:31:00 or just a magic "everything goes thru my C parser" mechanism? 18:32:02 zmail uses readtables 18:32:28 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:04 That bbn cl is very cool looking. 18:33:19 ;-) 18:33:24 a bit oldish 18:33:49 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:34:07 Doesn't seem to use continuations significantly in the CL implementation, either. 18:40:28 francisco [n=fhc@81.193.87.240] has joined #lisp 18:42:06 (why would they?) 18:43:06 What licence would be preferrable for release into public domain? 18:43:37 -!- WaGE [n=WaGE@70.23.78.182] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 18:43:40 The BSD license is in fairly common use here 18:43:45 meingbg: http://cr.yp.to/publicdomain.html is something i saw today. 18:43:56 "public domain" means many things, though, depending on where you are 18:45:12 I thought it always meant relinquishing all further claims of ownership 18:45:40 tmh: In some legal systems, you cannot do that. 18:45:58 francogrex [n=franco@91.177.129.104] has joined #lisp 18:46:22 the cr.yp.to page discusses the USA and Europe. 18:47:24 Hey!! if anyone cares, now I got CL C and VBA (excel) connected completely (even string passing). So Excel can have all the power of C anc Common Lisp 18:47:27 Probably the more important question is whether releasing into the public domain relinquishes you of responsibility. 18:47:54 Ouch, law seems to be at least as complicated as technology... 18:48:40 francogrex: what did you do? Can you share objects or just execute remote commands? 18:48:56 meingbg: Law seems arbitrarily complicated to me. 18:49:53 Fare, I could connect excel to a compiled shared lib, so we can pass objects and execute funcctions etc 18:50:12 tmh: Recursive self-contradiction seems pretty complicated to me while many a lawyer would consider it amusing. 18:50:24 -!- mcspiff [n=user@DE8DC.VPN.Dal.Ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:50:39 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:42 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:51:00 It's cool because you can deliver CL possibilities just in excel for naive users 18:51:01 mcspiff [n=user@DE8DC.VPN.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 18:51:14 stuart71 [n=user@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:34 francogrex: Is that completely different from the "VBA References" to .dll's? 18:51:44 of coursen we'll have to see what microsoft says about that 18:51:55 francogrex, there is something similar for the FileMaker database 18:52:08 for using LispWorks from FileMaker 18:52:22 dlowe: Is BSD preferred over MIT? 18:52:42 lispm, it's possible there are other possibilities, mine is simple and small and effecient 18:52:47 meingbg: that almost sounds like Dijkstras conclusion in one of his trip reports (to hardvard no less, i think). he also added that he got the feeling that the "chooice of words" had a more lasting impact in law rather than the meaning of the words. ie, pseudo-sciene/hip is scoring high in law. :) 18:52:52 meingbg: neither of those is public domaine. 18:52:55 *domain 18:53:10 in clx, the concept of window-plist, display-plist, etc. is not the same thing as a symbol plist, correct? 18:53:23 meingbg: try reading them and decide what you prefer 18:53:30 meingbg: it goes throu a dll yes 18:54:10 meingbg: I generally default to BSD, but have switched a license to MIT with no objection when it was preferred by others. 18:54:17 silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-092-096.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:24 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:54:44 stuart71: It is. That's how I've used them anyway, for hanging extra data on the objects. 18:54:46 dlowe: Any link to the BSD "one"? 18:55:05 meingbg: http://lmgtfy.com/?BSD+license 18:55:15 beach: What makes them not public domain? 18:55:15 hefner: as a list of alternating key/value pairs? 18:55:18 dlowe: thx. 18:55:35 http://lmgtfy.com/?q=BSD+license 18:56:00 stuart71: yeah. 18:56:02 meingbg: Here is a license smorgasbord -> http://www.opensource.org/licenses 18:56:15 francogrex: ok, so a C shared library file doesn't work the same as a VBA .dll, or ... what? 18:56:20 hefner: but can I use the GET function on the window's plist? 18:56:33 (setf (getf (xlib:display-plist display) :foo) 1234) 18:56:36 tmh: Thx 4 the smörgåsbord. 18:57:28 hefner: ah! getf. thank you 18:58:36 meingbg: sure it works the same; but those VBA C compiled DLL connections were sketchy at best: strings couldn't be exchanged etc. And besides no connection to common lisp was ever made in this way from Excel to Common Lisp 18:58:44 Does anyone know how to generate a lognormal distrubtion...does that question even make sense? 18:59:00 meingbg: The fact that they have conditions associated with them. 18:59:47 -!- stuart71 [n=user@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["adhd"] 19:00:06 mcspiff: yes it makes sense 19:00:08 mcspiff: you can just generate from a normal and exponentiate. 19:00:21 but what do you want? PDF, CDF, random variates? 19:00:38 random variates, given a mu and sigma 19:01:16 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:01:26 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:02:00 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:56 Yes, like pkhuong explained: The most straightforward way of achieving random numbers from a lognormal distribution is to generate a random number u from a normal distribution with mean mu and standard deviation sigma and construct r=exp(u) 19:03:03 If you don't need to use variance reduction techniques or otherwise assume a monotone link between the input from your stream of random values and the stream of variates, box-muller is a nice way to generate normals. 19:03:34 I have a lisp code to generate random deviates from a normal 19:04:03 francogrex: would it be possible to take a look? 19:04:13 -!- francisco [n=fhc@81.193.87.240] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:04:28 Ive never done anything stats related in any language before. Little over my head. 19:04:40 francisco [n=fhc@bl4-87-240.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:04:51 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-67.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:05:13 -!- concorr [n=concorr@214.Red-88-6-241.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 19:05:25 it's stashed somewhere in my archives 19:05:46 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has joined #lisp 19:07:08 -!- WaGE_ is now known as WaGE 19:07:13 I can try to find it, but mind u it's not an optimzed code, I think it was an almost word by word transcription of the "polar method" 19:07:25 francogrex: ok, ill poke around that on wikipedia 19:07:48 mcspiff: wait, I can try and post it for u to try 19:08:04 mcspiff: but what are u trying to do? 19:08:12 Can someone point me to a discussion of the readtable, many towards uses? I scanned chapter 2 of the hyperspec, but would like a higher level view. 19:08:35 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-29-220.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:09:27 *mainly* 19:09:34 francogrex: its homework related.. 19:09:39 francogrex: one second 19:10:44 mcspiff pasted "lognormal" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83868 19:11:22 mcspiff: if it's homework, i am not sure it's a good idea i give you a code 19:11:31 haha 19:11:48 francogrex: damn me and my honesty 19:12:01 mcspiff: he fears for your grade, not your academic integrity 19:12:18 heh 19:12:41 mcspiff: it could be worse. pjb would give seemingly working code that solved the problem in the most contorted way. 19:12:52 ah, that was funny. 19:13:11 Xach: bullshit 19:13:24 mcspiff: why does it have to be in lisp? 19:13:26 aha alright alright. ill stop trying to make #lisp do my homework... 19:13:33 francogrex: it doesnt 19:13:51 The MIT says the "permission notice" should be included in all "substantial portions" of the software. Does that imply that derivative works cannot be sublicenced propritarily? 19:13:52 because u can simply download R 19:14:09 francogrex: well R > C so this sounds promising... 19:14:18 instead of reinventing the wheel 19:14:21 You'll also have to learn R. 19:15:01 R is a stats language from what im reading? 19:17:02 masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has joined #lisp 19:17:17 Is that too hard: rlnorm(n, meanlog = 0, sdlog = 1) 19:17:32 francogrex: that looks good 19:18:11 all u need is download R and it is in R-vase (no extra packages needed) 19:18:21 R-base 19:19:28 and R is not a stranger from lisp. It's actually steered by a scheme engine 19:19:40 meingbg: instead of going through tons of licenses, what is your intentions? if you want to release the code so it can be used for commercial purposes (in binary form), the use BSD (preferably version 2). if you want to force the user to always release the source code, than go GPL. LGPL is somewhere in-between. GPL has had legal scrutiny (i think), and i am certain that the BSD license has been debunked properly too. 19:19:45 so "indirectly" u'll be using lisp 19:19:52 bad_alloc [n=marvin@HSI-KBW-091-089-218-079.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 19:19:55 francogrex: so ill just generate the data set, and then read it into lisp? 19:20:24 mcspiff: why not stick with R at least for this manupulation? 19:21:08 well, the end goal is simulate 10,000 allocations using these data sets, implementating first fit and circular first fit 19:21:18 ill do as much as i can in R 19:21:31 mcspiff: if you have to do a lot of stats, stick with a specialized stats software it's easier 19:22:09 mcspiff: unless it's for fun and learning and you want to have it in CL for that purpose 19:22:49 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 19:23:36 francogrex: na, this is a right tool for the job situation 19:23:55 -!- legumbre [n=user@190.135.15.203] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:24:01 mcspiff: it seems to me the right tool would have been a pre-existing stats/simulation package, like SSJ with Java. 19:24:21 francogrex, using ECL to embed CL in C? 19:24:42 (though ECL's libgc might not play well with Excel) 19:24:54 Fare, from ECL to C to VBA to excel 19:25:32 hypno: My intention is to release a lisp package in a way that as many as possible will be able to use it, wheather commercially or for freeware, open or closed source. 19:25:38 pkhuong`: then im at two unknowns ;-) 19:25:42 Fare, it's all well now. I had a hard time with arrays and strings interchangeability and now it's done and most importantly without using VC++ 19:26:19 mcspiff: (or R, but you have to be comfortable with R-the-language) 19:26:28 hypno: My second intention is to find out what open source licenses I can accept for libraries I use in a commercial application. 19:26:33 how do you compile ECL to begin with? 19:27:12 meingbg, not GPL, neither LGPL w/o the LLGPL amendment. LLGPL, possibly. 19:27:14 Fare, I'm using Win32, just to tell you (i think it's pretty obvious from the description) 19:27:32 compiling ecl is easy 19:28:40 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:28:45 meingbg: Then you don't need a license. Just write something like : This software has been placed in the public domain. You can do whatever you want with it. 19:28:48 example: someone wanted to implement levenstein distance in excel, so instead of getting mired with VBA code, simply i connected an exsiting lisp code and it's done in 5 sec 19:29:21 benny` [n=benny@i577A1FF0.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:29:28 beach: does that work in France? 19:29:37 I thought that France had problems w/ the public domain 19:29:48 Fare: No I don't think it does work. 19:29:49 francogrex: r seems ok so far 19:30:05 CC0? (coming in late to a discussion, so pardon if this is a silly suggestion) 19:30:10 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 19:30:50 Fare: On the other hand, that means that it can't legally be used at all. So what people tend to do is to believe that the author won't sue in that case. 19:30:54 Fare: what are your thoughts on csp-style concurrency? 19:31:11 meingbg: then BSD-2 is excellent for your needs. Look at NetBSD-5 or FreeBSD's source code. the top license block in files related to those projects is the requirement imposed on the user: that is: that the license /stays/ in the file. otherwise the user is essentially free to do what he pleaces (except suing you :). 19:31:12 csp-style? 19:31:13 -!- benny [n=benny@87.122.36.86] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:31:15 -!- benny` is now known as benny 19:31:17 mcspiff: the difficult part (in CL) will be getting interesting statistics on the simulations' results to usefully compare the allocators. 19:31:33 Fare: http://www.cliki.net/csp 19:31:39 how does BSD-2 differ from MIT? 19:31:48 birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.231] has joined #lisp 19:31:50 beach: Fare: I would asume, that if someone in a country with those kind of problems actually gets in trouble for using software in the "public domain", the copyright holder could re-license it suitably. 19:32:04 Fare: having channels for communication, that you can dump stuff into. 19:32:23 sykopomp, is that the same as Pi-calculus? 19:32:23 meingbg: there is a ton of licenses, but i do think you should consider the added benefit of those that has actually been proven in court - as distinctly different from some of the others. 19:32:36 Fare: I don't know what pi-calculus is, so I couldn't tell you if it is. 19:32:42 (and doesn't Pi-calculus kind of sucks in the distributed case?) 19:32:49 *sykopomp* looks it up on wp. 19:32:56 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:34:05 *Fare* googles and finds http://www.wotug.org/lists/occam/0468.shtml 19:34:29 aha, it is. 19:34:43 -!- francisco [n=fhc@bl4-87-240.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:35:03 how is pi-calculus bad in the distributed case? 19:35:54 meingbg: I probably should stop having opinions in domains I know very little about, but "copyright holder" and "public domain" seem incompatible to me. 19:37:06 beach: so, where were we ? 19:37:12 because in unconstrained pi-calculus, multiple processes remote from each other may listen on a same channel, and only one will get any message 19:37:16 *sykopomp* was under the impression that public domain specifically meant that copyright no longer applied. 19:37:25 and so you need global synchronization 19:37:33 *beach* thinks sykopomp is right. 19:37:34 sykopomp, in the US maybe 19:37:37 fe[nl]ix: about what? 19:37:49 I can't give up my copyright 19:37:52 Fare / sykopomp: there are calculi that deal with that stuff. I've started putting some of my notes online: http://technomadic.org/computation/index.php?title=Graph_of_expressivity 19:37:54 plenty of people restrict the pi-calculus to forbid that 19:38:03 in which case you might use the Join-calculus 19:38:07 or equivalently, actors 19:38:21 Feel free to add my wiki :D 19:38:23 http://cr.yp.to/publicdomain.html suggests people can abandon copyright in Europe. 19:38:31 Fare: not equivalently. 19:38:39 Fare: I'm sure copyright law varies per country. The US also seems to have some of the more draconian laws involving it (DMCA, for example) 19:38:40 Xach, yeah, but without proof. 19:38:52 Fare: As much proof as has been offered here. 19:38:54 beach: you had something for cltl3, I said I was busy until monday 20 ... 19:38:55 Xach, lawyers in France have suggested the opposite 19:39:27 fe[nl]ix: I think I just wanted to know how it is coming along, but I can check the logs if you think otherwise. 19:40:10 i think it was on cll i read that this whole pi-calculus thing was essentially the same as closures or anonymous functions? 19:40:41 ISTR that cases indeed established that people could relinquish any "public domain" statement 19:41:06 mcspiff: good. For others who are interested in stats software, it might interest you to know that Ross Ihaka, the creator of R is working on a new stats software based on common lisp as an driver 19:41:29 or put differently, how is a NIO library with callbacks, some glue for receiving and sending objects, and macro-magical anonymous functions not enough to provide most of erlang like concurrency? (disregarding process integrity) 19:41:30 francogrex: I hope they don't intend to provide full backward compatibility. 19:41:41 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 19:42:01 hypno: everything's equivalent to an unbounded tape. That sort of argument tends to be dangerously useless. 19:42:12 pkhuong: I don't know; it's been a while now, i wonder where they're at. I'll post you a link to the development article 19:42:25 -!- jamief [n=jamie@158.223.53.104] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:42:31 francogrex: I've read it. 19:42:32 -!- bad_alloc [n=marvin@HSI-KBW-091-089-218-079.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit ["You shoot yourself in somebody else's foot."] 19:42:42 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 19:43:16 Interested me enough to try and find a language definition. I wound up in the interpreter's sources. Conclusion: the language itself's a mess. 19:43:30 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["ETOOMUCHLICENCETALK"] 19:43:33 "Back to the Future: Lisp as a Base for a Statistical Computing System" << this one right 19:43:57 pkhuong, which language is a mess? 19:44:00 R. 19:44:22 sure, that's why Ross is trying new approach (new is now rather old) 19:44:43 they started in 2005 it seems. Did they abandon? i wonder 19:44:44 pkhuong`: huh? the second question was rather practical, no? 19:44:46 -!- zophy-ng [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:45:50 no sorry, they started in 2007 19:46:48 hypno: news at 11, message queues and threads are enough to implement unsafe communicating processes? 19:49:03 hypno: what second question? 19:50:16 mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 19:50:50 -!- chii [i=chii@freenode/bot/chii] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:51:24 pkhuong`: heh. alright then. 19:51:46 chii [i=chii@freenode/bot/chii] has joined #lisp 19:51:50 metawilm [n=willem@e179145000.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:53:43 hydrapheetz [n=blank@208.97.42.75] has joined #lisp 19:53:46 WaGE_ [n=WaGE@pool-141-155-35-254.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:54 *meingbg* will release lisp libraries under BSD 19:56:42 meingbg: what do they do? 19:57:06 francogrex: my question was how NIO + anonymous functions are not enough to get erlang-like functionality provided you add a glue-layer. sort of like http://195.43.248.109/~hypno/httpd.lisp, but with added message queues, a stupid scheduler, etc. 19:57:55 hypno: ok, I thought had something to do with what we were talking about R 19:59:22 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 20:00:09 hypno: also, only true if you like coding in CPS. 20:02:17 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:02:40 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-197-191-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:03:23 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:04:51 -!- nha [n=prefect@62.158.123.150] has quit ["Argueing online is like going to the special olympics; even if you win, you're still a retard."] 20:05:01 -!- silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-092-096.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:05:14 *francogrex* will be away optimizing the Lisp-C-VBA connections 20:05:53 -!- francogrex [n=franco@91.177.129.104] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:06:13 ... VBA? 20:06:24 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 20:06:33 egn_ [i=tux@nodes.fm] has joined #lisp 20:06:35 *hydrapheetz* was thinking VisualBoy Advance, dah. 20:06:59 First thing that came to mind for me was Visual Basic for Applications. 20:07:32 Oh, yeah 20:07:46 -!- WaGE [n=WaGE@pool-141-155-124-124.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 20:08:41 pkhuong`: i think i'm somewhat confused by the CPS term. what exactly do you mean by that? that i have to explicitly yield? that i have to watch out for blocking calls? 20:09:00 Xach: "table" is a library for table oriented design and is mainly an editor facility although it runs in the lisp image; "std" has a defun* with :export, :memoize and :aggregate options. "std" also includes minimalistic test, xml and observer/observeable utilities as well as a number of small convenience macros and tree-assoc for p-lists. "cl-vnc" for VNC servers/clients/proxies is under development (currently only working as a proxy 20:09:01 with the ability to alter key events). These may be small contributions, but are my first as a lisp programmer. 20:11:33 "std"? 20:13:39 have you save-lisp-and-die'ed a image with your libraries in it? 20:13:58 if no wtf is std 20:15:07 hypno: you need (one-shot) continuations for your scheduler, unless you want to use the implementation's threads. 20:15:08 -!- willb [n=wibenton@compsci-wifi-39.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:15:23 willb [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 20:15:47 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:16:42 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:19:37 -!- egn [i=tux@nodes.fm] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:20:06 pkhuong`: i would use N-1 (or more) threads for executing the processes (say a few loops around in it's receive loop), and 1 thread doing the NIO-stuff (adding complete lisp objects to the processes m-queue). is that bad somehow? 20:23:41 the erlang model depends on processes being really cheap. With OS threads, you also get to deal with all the issues related to preemption and concurrent execution. 20:25:00 yes, but objects would probably be even cheaper.. 20:25:50 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Success] 20:27:24 you mean that you'd use threads to implement m:n multi-processing? However you'll represent your processes' state, that's called a continuation. If you want cheap objects, you'll have cheap continuations. How will you do that? 20:27:36 syamajala [n=syamajal@97.95.190.124] has joined #lisp 20:28:43 joswig [n=joswig@g224120149.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:28:52 Well, assuming you still want to be able to say that your implementation is simple, you'll probably have the user pass closures as "callbacks". Those callbacks are continuations, and it's a fair pain to code in continuation-passing style. 20:29:05 -!- lispm [n=joswig@92.224.120.149] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:29:06 Xach: "std" as in "STanDard", meaning a lot of other libraries will depend on it. It will include things too small to form libraries of their own. 20:29:07 maybe i should just hack this thing up and then let you ripp it all apart for me. :) 20:29:17 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:51 pkhuong`: libevent takes care of the whole AIO mess. it calls a ballback when there is something todo. 20:30:06 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-194.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:30:08 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:30:29 younder: I have a binary of the vnc proxy thingy. The other ones should be asdf-installable (I think). 20:30:37 the shitty example i pasted above have truly no problems with concurrency wrt io at least. (not that i've seen at least) 20:30:52 younder: Or else I could make an image for you. 20:32:29 -!- Kickaha [n=jadawin@82.154.16.89] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:34:34 hypno: "passing callbacks" is just another way to say that you're coding in CPS. That's good enough in the same way that using objects instead of first-class functions is. 20:36:19 -!- mcspiff [n=user@DE8DC.VPN.Dal.Ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:38:48 morganb [n=user@ip24-136-41-126.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:13 Really? I think of them differently. Code involving callbacks mentally looks like (progn (do-something) (invoke-callback A) (do-something-else) ...), or differently put: a callback does in general not influence the flow-control, a continuation does 20:39:21 pkhuong`: hmm, ok. and how is erlang different? it must have nio-engine way down, right? ontop of that they use some cheap ucontext like structures to represent processes, make sure that no process can block (or modify things globaly by language semantics) and then have a scheduler which switches contexts around and let each process run for a while? 20:41:28 tcr: the callback *is* the continuation. 20:41:50 hypno: you code in direct style and the implementation takes care of the rest. That's not lightweight. 20:41:59 But in the example above, it cannot really influence the flow-control in the caller 20:42:39 pkhuong`: you mean the httpd shit or? 20:42:58 Anyway, pkhuong`: you declared lock-table-contention to be (ubyte 64), and try to use atomic-incf on that. That does not seem to work out on my 32bit system. 20:44:48 tcr: that only depends on how continuations are invoked. 20:44:51 hypno: no. 20:45:05 tcr: right, there might be some other 64-bit-ism hidden there. 20:46:56 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97.95.190.124] has quit ["Leaving..."] 20:47:54 tcr: it could influnce control flow via non-local exits, catch/throw etc... which is how a lot of CL based cps transformers do their magic. 20:49:11 Yeah but not the direct control flow in the caller. Basically, callback for me is "limited influence on control flow", continuation "full control" 20:49:15 tcr: the heart of a continuation is that it represents the state of a computation, not whether it replaces the invoking computation with that. 20:50:40 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 20:50:43 -!- xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:52:43 -!- ivan-kanis [n=user@if02t2-89-83-137-164.d4.club-internet.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:55:00 Chapter 22 of PCL should be titled 'LOOP for Green Belts', maybe purple. 20:55:02 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.7.237] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:57:03 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:57:30 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:58:27 one could write a book about loop 20:58:40 and a very lengthy paper about format 20:59:03 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 21:00:07 guaqua: start writing, then 21:00:34 that might be a good way to learn to use loop. thanks for the idea :) 21:00:41 *meingbg* would be glad if someone could write a not so length paper about loop and/or format, that still would carry the point... 21:00:47 or at least understand how it works 21:01:59 clhs loop is enough 21:02:35 A "Loop by Example" and/or "Loop Cookbook" would be handy. 21:02:55 WaGE [n=WaGE@pool-70-18-18-20.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:14 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:05:27 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:05:29 -!- egn_ is now known as egn 21:05:46 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:06:15 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 21:07:01 -!- rpg [n=rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:09:11 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 21:09:17 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:11:51 younder: http://meingbg.co.cc/cl/table-and-std.core 21:15:21 ramus`_ [n=ramus@adsl-99-148-132-231.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:04 -!- WaGE_ [n=WaGE@pool-141-155-35-254.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:19:39 -!- Ogedei [n=user@e178223138.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:19:57 macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:20:33 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 21:20:45 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 21:27:28 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:27:39 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-69-209-214-223.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:28:40 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:29:39 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:29:59 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has joined #lisp 21:30:44 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:30:58 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:11 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:38:03 I thought there was a party at #fortran 21:40:41 bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.35] has joined #lisp 21:41:25 PAAARTY ? 21:41:29 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 21:42:54 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229141197.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 21:43:13 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:44:58 -!- metawilm [n=willem@e179145000.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 21:45:36 mcspiff [n=user@DC7CB.WPA.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 21:46:02 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:47:54 bombshelter13p__ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.37] has joined #lisp 21:49:41 -!- krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-44-4.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:49:43 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-123-83.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:49:49 -!- mcspiff [n=user@DC7CB.WPA.Dal.Ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:50:18 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-14199.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:53:28 -!- bombshelter13p__ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.37] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:58:37 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-111.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:53 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:59:12 -!- Jabberwock [n=jens@port-14199.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:06:16 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:06:49 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 22:07:00 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:07:44 -!- bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.35] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:09:14 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:24 -!- hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit ["leaving"] 22:14:54 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:02 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E1D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:15:23 olafk [n=olaf@82.113.106.9] has joined #lisp 22:15:32 -!- macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:16:20 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 22:19:09 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 22:19:10 -!- Dr_Pacheco [n=user7994@187.34.42.160] has quit ["Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de"] 22:21:08 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.127] has joined #lisp 22:24:19 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:25:33 moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 22:25:39 -!- Hun [n=hun@217.86.190.93] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:27:48 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:27:50 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:28:49 luis pasted "misleading description in the (struct page) definition?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83887 22:30:31 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:31:27 -!- replaca [n=tom@76-191-193-111.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has left #lisp 22:31:37 willb1 [n=wibenton@compsci-wifi-39.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 22:32:22 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:32:37 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:33:20 -!- olafk [n=olaf@82.113.106.9] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:34:46 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:36:34 -!- masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:36:54 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 22:39:15 -!- birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.231] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:40:27 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 22:41:12 mscala [n=user@75.110.164.231] has joined #lisp 22:42:01 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 22:42:13 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:44:14 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:46:44 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:46:45 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:47:10 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 22:47:34 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 22:48:26 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:51:23 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:51:29 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-99-50-122-218.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:02 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@pool-96-255-111-135.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:27 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@compsci-wifi-39.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:01:14 -!- cavelife^ [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:03:22 -!- milanj- [n=milan@93.87.141.215] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:03:35 -!- joswig [n=joswig@g224120149.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 23:06:17 i have this list '(a a a b b c c c c d a a) and i want => ((a 3) (b 2) (c 4) (d 1) (a 2)) anyone knows a clever way to do this? 23:06:30 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.127] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:07:33 krumholt_: there's a pretty simple recursive solution 23:07:45 -!- ramus`_ is now known as ramus` 23:08:18 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:08:35 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:09:10 slava, the list might be a few 1000000 items 23:09:54 krumholt_: use an hashtable 23:09:57 anybody here read the latest article on LtU ? 23:09:59 well, in any case you have to iterate over each element at least once 23:10:08 luis: how does that help? 23:10:14 luis: he wants to do run length encoding basically 23:10:22 the only satte you need is the last element you looked at 23:10:34 slava: oh, I misread the example. Nevermind. 23:10:38 Right, I'd use the recursive or iterative solution. 23:10:45 luis: if he just wanted a histogram, he could use a hashtable 23:10:48 regarding how a C++ guru discovered that iterators suck, and the solution he proposes are "ranges" 23:11:26 slava: yeah, that's what I thought he wanted. 23:11:26 Aren't they basically iterators too? 23:11:26 but these "ranges" are almost identical to richard waters's SERIES :D 23:11:26 i'll try the recursive solution thanks 23:11:26 fe[nl]ix: ranges are more like iterators in other languages 23:11:26 fe[nl]ix: ... we can ascertain that C++ gurus suck, and the solution is "lisp gurus"? 23:11:30 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 23:11:32 krumholt_: working on l99? 23:11:35 STL's current 'iterators' are pretty wack 23:11:52 nyef: yes, pretty much that :D 23:12:49 it's very funny, that his presentation, with a few syntax permutations, could be transformed into a SERIES tutorial 23:12:50 Ralith, i don't know what l99 is. so i guess no :) 23:14:11 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:17:30 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:17:44 cavelife^ [n=cavelife@211.201.172.38] has joined #lisp 23:19:13 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:42 -!- chessguy_work is now known as chessguy 23:20:48 dreish_ [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:20:59 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 23:21:44 fe[nl]ix: isn't the syntax of series more elaborate (both in allowed complexity as in length) than those of most other languages? 23:22:19 nope 23:22:38 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:22:44 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:27:19 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:28:34 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:19 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:29:21 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:30:01 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:43 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 23:32:49 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:33:52 kpreid [n=kpreid@70.88.151.157] has joined #lisp 23:34:16 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:35:43 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@70.88.151.157] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:37:38 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 23:41:14 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 23:41:52 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:41:54 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:43:19 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-111.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:44:06 -!- mscala [n=user@75.110.164.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:44:27 kpreid [n=kpreid@70.88.151.157] has joined #lisp 23:44:44 okflo [n=user@91-115-90-70.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 23:45:29 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:46:02 joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 23:49:49 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:50:10 Kickaha [n=jadawin@240.137.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 23:50:50 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [] 23:51:46 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:08 -!- aircastle_away [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:57:27 -!- okflo [n=user@91-115-90-70.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has left #lisp