00:00:07 optikalmouse: contact lichtblau and ask him how much he'd charge. 00:00:25 kawesome :D 00:01:57 dto: ooh, video? 00:01:59 *Ralith* scrollbacks 00:02:22 foo_ [n=foo@baconfile.com] has joined #lisp 00:02:31 dto: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeZ2uCG8Mk0 the right one? 00:02:40 yep 00:02:49 it's not the newest but it's the most comprehensive 00:03:32 -!- foo_ [n=foo@baconfile.com] has quit [] 00:04:07 -!- postamar [n=postamar@206-248-158-65.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:05:40 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:05:47 postamar [n=postamar@206-248-158-65.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:05:53 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 00:07:31 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177126113.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 00:08:51 -!- Qadosh [n=q@unaffiliated/qodosh] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:10:13 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17E80E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:17:43 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:21:09 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 00:23:06 elephant_ [n=elephant@baconfile.com] has joined #lisp 00:23:15 Hi 00:23:37 -!- elephant_ [n=elephant@baconfile.com] has left #lisp 00:23:51 bye 00:23:53 :( 00:24:08 -!- postamar [n=postamar@206-248-158-65.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:24:27 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:24:56 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.180.20] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:25:48 postamar [n=postamar@206-248-158-65.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:26:01 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.93.32] has left #lisp 00:27:09 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-fee448d6632e8a92] has left #lisp 00:34:24 -!- postamar [n=postamar@206-248-158-65.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [] 00:40:21 densem [n=fasteez2@218.217.72-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:00 -!- optikalmouse [n=user@bas1-toronto10-1279555750.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 00:42:09 -!- JHVH [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:44:26 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@12.154.71.10] has quit [] 00:44:41 kpreid [n=kpreid@12.154.71.10] has joined #lisp 00:45:34 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 00:46:36 -!- densem-jr [n=fasteez2@86.72.217.218] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:46:55 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:47:05 -!- kmels-away [n=kmels@190.148.195.36] has quit [Success] 00:48:26 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:56 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:59 andyL [n=andy@204.188.174.189] has joined #lisp 00:56:14 whats a good book for learning lisp 00:57:11 minion: tell andyL about pcl-book 00:57:12 andyL: direct your attention towards pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 00:57:58 thanks 01:01:05 http://twitter.com/cemerick/status/2691272683 01:01:15 Dan Weinreb, of all people! 01:02:26 -!- andyL [n=andy@204.188.174.189] has left #lisp 01:03:22 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 01:04:29 sykopomp: ugh, I certainly hope not. 01:06:16 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:49 -!- densem [n=fasteez2@218.217.72-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:09:11 rouslan [n=Rouslan@pool-70-20-40-108.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:28 -!- dto [n=user@98.118.1.212] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:12:35 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:59 -!- quek 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[n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 03:15:05 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.195.36] has left #lisp 03:22:58 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.93.32] has quit [Client Quit] 03:29:28 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-127.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:37:19 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-71-134-227-157.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:26 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:44:22 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2EB58.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:02 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 03:50:05 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["'night"] 03:52:20 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 03:53:29 drafael pasted "simple queue" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83773 03:53:57 does this look okay? am I over complicating things? feedback would be appreciated 03:55:27 Is it possible for a Lisp program to call an external program, then exit from memory immediately, leaving only the external program running? 03:55:28 drafael: qpop is wrong. 03:55:44 pjb: how so? it appears to work to me 03:55:49 It doesn't update last, so you may keep some garbage. 03:56:21 Try to remove all the elements from the queue, and inspect the object. 03:56:41 but qpush checks if contents is nil 03:56:54 and if so ignores last 03:57:10 drafael: yes, your code is correct, but keeping references to garbage is wrong. 03:57:18 ah 03:57:49 Imagine the last element was half the memory big... 03:58:02 good point 03:58:21 okay, I'll move the check + set to nil into qpop then 04:00:35 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2EFFA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:02:13 drafael: In C, your code would be good. But with a garbage collector, you have to reset references to NIL when you don't need the refered objects any longer to let the garbage collector do its job. 04:02:59 -!- lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-0-24.dynamic.amis.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:03:57 drafael annotated #83773 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83773#1 04:04:37 pjb: no, I quite understand, thanks for pointing that out 04:05:20 Sorry, no joy. you could enqueue NILs... 04:05:57 You have three cases: (cdr contents) contents and t. 04:06:10 jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 04:06:19 oops 04:09:21 drafael annotated #83773 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83773#2 04:09:28 there, hopefully that finally does it 04:09:53 Yes, that's good. 04:10:04 thanks :) 04:10:10 (for the help) 04:11:20 drafael: now, for the fun, could you implement fifo with lifo? 04:16:32 pjb: just fifo-pop on a list by setting the second to last cons' cdr to nil and returning the car of the last cons? or am I thinking about this the wrong way 04:17:28 hmm, I think I am.. I shall ponder a while longer 04:17:37 drafael: well, when you consider the abstract data type, you cannot consider its insides. 04:18:14 drafael: so a lifo, which is a stack, has only the operations push, pop and empty-p. 04:18:53 drafael: and you must implement enqueue and dequeue (fifo operations, what you called qpush and qpop), using only the lifo (stack) push, pop and emptyp. 04:19:48 tricky 04:19:54 In your paste, you implemented enqueue and dequeue using cons cells as a base, so you could easily keep a reference to the last cons cell and add there. 04:20:27 I'll play around in the repl for a bit I think 04:20:29 drafael: think about it, it's interesting, because the result is not bad, performance wise. 04:22:30 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:51 _stern_ [n=seelenqu@217.228.105.59] has joined #lisp 04:24:04 Good morning. 04:26:45 Good morning! 04:29:23 good 24th hour 04:29:52 or it might be 25th. I think I woke around 4am yesterday 04:33:36 good 1st hour 04:34:05 I can tell you guys are bored again. Do you need for me to suggest some projects for you? 04:35:32 beach: other than the one I'm *supposed" to work on now? 04:36:05 beach: something global? i'd rather like something small 04:36:37 pjb: does this involve popping a queue until empty onto a temporary queue, popping that, and then popping back onto the original queue? that seems to be the most trivial way of doing it, though not really very good performance wise as you suggested the solution should be 04:36:41 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 04:36:59 p_l: I was going to suggest the document-improvment/OCR program that I talked about the other day. For something smaller, how about a library that can parse any MIME message and get Unicode from text bodies. 04:37:27 drafael: there's one phase of push-poping one stack to another, but not back. Make it non-temporary. 04:38:24 drafael: in your queue object, you used more than one cons cell, so you may use more than one lifo ;-) 04:38:28 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:01 oh 04:39:16 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-71-134-227-157.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [] 04:42:02 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E44FD6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 04:52:08 drafael annotated #83773 "lifo fifo" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83773#3 04:52:17 pjb: ^ 04:53:20 the class is pretty unimportant 04:54:14 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:54:39 evening 04:55:00 hello slyrus 04:55:14 drafael: you've got the principle. You could write it more simply, but it's ok. 04:55:14 hey beach. settling back in? 04:55:57 slyrus: doing the last stuff at work before summer break. 04:56:03 -!- jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:56:04 drafael: we keep two stacks, one for the input and another for the output. When we dequeue, if the output stack is empty, we move the elements from the input to the output (no need to do that when you enqueue). 04:56:14 beach: ah. you guys take a lot summer break. enjoy! 04:56:35 slyrus: yes, there is nobody at the university during the month of August. 04:56:58 slyrus: As of last year, the university is actually closed for 2 weeks in August as I recall. 04:57:07 pjb: ah, of course 04:58:00 drafael: What does your implementation illustrate? 04:58:42 drafael: The only time I have seen a queue implemented as a double stack is when the operations have to be without side effects. This is not your case. 04:59:26 Well, objects and pure functional are somewhat antagonist. 04:59:32 drafael: Am I right in that the cons cell in contents contains a reference to the head and tail of the queue? 04:59:55 beach: which one are you looking at? 05:00:10 annotation #3 05:00:15 beach: not in the last annotation. First there was an implementation using a list with a tail pointer, and then finally we implemented a fifo using lifo. 05:00:33 contents contains a cons containing the input and output stacks. 05:00:42 I'm cutting down the code for the last one at the moment 05:00:46 pjb: Why not two slots? 05:00:55 newbieness :-) 05:01:01 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 05:01:04 morning 05:01:06 hello splittist 05:01:12 stassats`, If you a small program to do you can write a sample Lisp program that will calll an external program, then exit from memory immediately, leaving only the external program running...to help this newbie. 05:01:38 beach: How is Bx these days? 05:01:38 beach: because the class is unnecessary and I just removed it 05:01:55 drafael: I would replace the contents slot by a slot INPUT-STACK and slot OUTPUT-STACK. 05:01:56 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-194.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:02:10 splittist: I would rather be in Sài Gòn. 05:02:30 drafael: I would keep the class and remove the cons. 05:02:34 Yeah, me too, better weather there... 05:02:50 pjb: And fewer annoying colleages too. 05:02:59 *ues 05:03:34 drafael annotated #83773 "simpler" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83773#4 05:04:20 beach: I don't think my liver could take Saigon. Admittedly, the only time I went there was for a wedding, so I may have got the wrong idea... 05:04:24 drafael: It is confusing to use a cons cell to represent a queue. I would use a class instance instead. 05:04:42 splittist: Your liver doesn't get enough practice. 05:04:57 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 05:05:10 beach: alist plist stack? 05:05:10 splittist: And yeah, you might have got the wrong idea. 05:05:19 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 05:05:25 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest23079 05:05:53 anyway, it's trivial to put it back into a class 05:05:53 drafael: Again, CLOS is there to help you create abstractions. Use an instance of a class the way you did before, but use two slots instead of a single one holding a cons cell. 05:06:05 drafael: indeed, but nonetheless, in big programs it's nice to have easily distinguishable abstract data types. So using classes is nice. Helps in debugging. 05:06:35 drafael: moreover you may write methods on different classes, but it's not so easy on different kind of data structure implemented as cons cells. 05:07:18 drafael: But I maintain that the only reason to implement a queue using two stacks is if you want to make the operations side-effect free. So I would just use a single list with a sentinel cons cell to simplify operations. 05:07:21 drafael: imagine you want to write a method PRINT-SEQUENCE for vectors, lists, queues and stacks. 05:07:24 pjb, beach: I do normally use CLOS, it's just that I wanted to finish with minimal code as it's an exercise 05:07:56 For me it's ok, I just wanted you to get the principle of fifo by lifo ;-) 05:08:16 yep, and I'm quite happy about that :) 05:08:22 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:16:11 Lain [n=Lain@c-68-82-197-54.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:23 anyone awake? 05:17:39 Lain: Plenty. What is your problem? 05:17:54 ! 05:17:57 no problem ^_^ 05:18:01 just lonely 05:19:10 is that alright? 05:19:19 or do i need to seek something in here? 05:19:41 Lain: Please stick to the topic. 05:19:53 im ok with talking about lisp 05:19:59 can't say i have any questions though 05:20:17 are you a bot beach? 05:20:51 Lain: You have a (short) history of inappropriate utterings. Try to shape up will you! 05:21:07 yes sir! 05:21:17 can you aid in my shape up?! 05:21:33 It's all up to you. 05:21:43 lol 05:21:54 its up to me, but me alone? 05:22:49 we all have our influences... 05:22:54 and some of them are living 05:22:59 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:23:37 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:24:08 lol 05:24:16 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 05:25:18 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 05:25:24 lat: i'd use ffi and exec* system call 05:25:35 Are there bots here? 05:25:45 claar's down... 05:26:25 stassats` pasted "execv sbcl" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83776 05:26:30 pjb: minion is around 05:26:34 that's what i used to restart sbcl itself 05:28:15 claar is a bot. For more info: /msg claar help 05:28:28 ... do I see a 'Lain' nick in #lisp? strangely apriopriate 05:28:55 even more ironically its my real name 05:29:02 cl-irc has a strange behavior. It seems it's able to reconnect and keep every message in buffers, but you have to restart the message loop for each quit... 05:29:59 Lain: If you tell me now that you have 'Iwakura' as surname, I'll consider signing myself into mental care ;-) 05:30:51 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-155-195-92.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:57 Word 05:31:02 hey gigamonkey 05:31:09 yo 05:31:15 i won't give my surname 05:31:17 but its not that 05:31:40 Lain: I know, but when you stay awake long enough, you start seeing/imagining things :) 05:31:47 gigamonkey: too much MS Word? 05:32:08 stassats`: amazingly, that's still not resolved. 05:32:17 yea, sure 05:32:24 Word is actually okay for what I've been doing lately, namely reviewing the copy editor's work. 05:32:31 i spent about 4 months in various mental institutions this year 05:32:59 and did a little more then see/imagine things 05:33:06 Too much thinking about who I need to write to to solicit blurbs for Coders at Work. 05:33:25 Lain: you saw 3d animations? 05:33:46 to be honest i didn't imagine anything 05:33:49 gigamonkey: have you got anybody from google? Seems to me they could do anything (eg go to the Moon better than NASA). 05:34:11 despite being diagnosed as schizoeffective 05:34:22 and then schizophrenaform 05:34:36 pjb: well, in theory Peter Norvig forwarded an email from me to Sergei and Larry. 05:34:41 21st century schizoid man? 05:35:01 my dad has schizophrenia 05:35:02 lispm [n=joswig@e177126113.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 05:35:12 but didn't develop it til older then i am 05:35:40 pjb: And four of my subjects now work at Google. 05:35:42 and since i didn't exert any schizo behavior at a different mental hospital she assigned me schizophrenaform 05:35:56 which is temporary schizophrenia last up to 6 months and no less then 1 05:36:03 Lain: there's probably a #schizo channel on undernet 05:36:20 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:36:23 i'd go if i was schizo 05:36:24 Here we're not too interested in the divagations of psychiatrists. 05:36:26 but not yet atleast 05:37:41 i could be lain from this series 05:37:42 Lain: start studying Cognitive Science/Artificial Intelligence, you'll start self-diagnosing yourself with interesting stuff 05:37:57 im part of a neurological study for UPENN 05:38:00 (valiant try at going back to on-topic) 05:38:21 very extensive (mri,eeg,etc...) 05:38:37 and like every six months 05:39:07 they're eager to know how i work 05:39:12 my dad went to MIT 05:39:20 haven't seen him in 8 years 05:39:20 it's all very interesting, but unfortunately not on topic 05:39:27 was raised on the net literally 05:39:34 lets talk lisp 05:39:41 stassats`, many thanks! I appreciate this very much. 05:40:28 lat: though i'm not sure about sb-impl::string-list-to-c-strvec, maybe there is a better way 05:41:10 and perhaps using CFFI would be somewhat better, but i've never used it 05:42:50 stassats`, this gives me something to try; 05:43:07 I'll do some testing. 05:45:20 and i guess execv would be not very graceful with handling open streams and the like 05:46:46 btw, anyone here had tried using chording keyboards for coding in lisp? 05:46:52 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:49:01 (question both related to lisp and neurology, actually...) 05:49:19 What about emacs? 05:49:21 ;-) 05:49:27 pjb: that too :D 05:49:36 writing in lisp by playing chords on guitar? 05:49:48 *p_l* was thinking of embedding chording keyboard directly into nervous system 05:50:17 stassats`: no, think of a keyboard where you input data similarly to chords on piano 05:50:42 i can't play piano 05:50:45 p_l: good keyboards allow to enter chords of any keys, not only of modifiers. 05:50:58 elliotstern [n=chatzill@c-69-143-33-196.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:16 pjb: I was thinking of keyboard that has five keys ;-) 05:51:45 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chording_keyboard 05:51:46 p_l: how about 10. Or even a few more since your thumbs can pick between a few. 05:51:56 Check out stenotype keyboards. 05:52:04 p_l: Yes. In the meantime, it should be rather easy to write a prototype in emacs. 05:52:40 Notice that 2^5 = 32; we use more than 32 keys or key-chords in emacs to edit lisp code... 05:52:59 So you'd have to fallback to sequences with such "chording" keyboards... 05:53:17 gigamonkey: I was thinking of making a keyer, i.e. without board, held in one hand with thumb on "mouse" 05:53:24 Cyrillic has 33 letters, no good 05:54:12 How about one of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EWI ;-) 05:55:00 hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:57:53 It would be fun, but if you want to restrict yourself to harmonic and melodious input, it won't be more efficient than a normal keyboard or even speach. And if you accept dissonant input, it'd be awkward to use... Remember you'd have to encode 972 CL symbols, or give Hollerith-like input... 05:58:24 pjb: 978 05:58:45 pjb: I was thinking of typing in conditions where you might not have normal keyboard available 05:58:58 stassats`: right. 05:59:06 http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/graphics/symbolics-keyboard-fullsize.jpg 05:59:16 pjb: I think you'd need to map various combos to larger units than individual symbols. 05:59:31 This lick means a whole defun form, that one is a cond, which you then fill in. 06:00:09 *p_l* would like to see full greek alphabet + math symbol input from Knight's keyboard, implemented on Symbolics... 06:00:10 Yeah, I know--that doesn't really make any sense. But almost. 06:02:04 p_l: heck, just get a four key chorder and type in UTF-8, on nibble at a time. ;-) 06:02:21 haha 06:02:22 s/on/one/ 06:03:05 p_l: what encoding did that system use, anyway? 06:03:30 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:35 Actually, this guy did that (well, he had four switches on each handlebar so typed in ASCII) http://www.atarimagazines.com/compute/issue126/48_Happy_trails_of_a_ro.php 06:04:07 Ralith: the one with space cadet/knight keyboard? some lisp-specific 06:04:34 how can an encoding be lisp specific 06:05:53 gigamonkey: ... AWESOME BIKE 06:06:12 Ralith: by being used on Lisp Machine that had 8000 chars directly available on keyboard 06:06:34 p_l: that's not lisp specific, that's just only used in a lispy context :P 06:06:38 and I recall that some versions had japanese encoding :) 06:07:15 The most promising, is the mind reader: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28286263/ 06:07:16 heh, yeah 06:07:31 Just visualize your code, and let the computer do the typing for you... 06:08:24 pjb: yeah, forcefully visualize every single character of your code >_> 06:08:28 typing would be faster. 06:08:54 p_l: I went and saw that guy speak live at BBN when I was in high school. He had great stories. 06:09:23 Ralith: that's the current tech, but adding sensors, you increase discrimination and you can download the whole brain, both conscious and unconscious... 06:09:31 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-22-108.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:09:37 jan247 [n=jan247@202.57.45.50] has joined #lisp 06:09:43 pjb: budget cloning? 06:10:26 ... searching for interesting keyboards, I found that new KITT from knight rider uses Apple Wireless Keyboard... my childhood memories are soiled ;_; 06:10:42 Is there a shorter way to write this? http://paste.lisp.org/display/83778 06:10:48 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.252.62] has joined #lisp 06:11:52 (defun delete* (item sequence &rest keys &key &allow-other-keyes) (apply #'delete item sequence keys)) 06:12:14 stassats`: thanks! 06:12:30 What purpose does this DELETE* serve, tomoyuki28jp? 06:12:34 &key &allow-other-keyes is not necessary 06:12:36 Why don't you just use DELETE itself? 06:12:52 Riastradh: That's just a example. It doesn't mean anything. 06:13:16 tomoyuki28jp: if you had indicated that it was a paste for the #lisp channel, you'd see now that I have annotated it. 06:13:55 tomoyuki28jp: you can also take stassats's suggestion but still explicitly specify the &key arguments which may get you some better error checking. 06:14:06 pjb: thanks! 06:14:21 gigamonkey: yeah, thanks for your advice. 06:14:39 stassats`: What is the &allow-other-keyes? 06:14:51 clhs &allow-other-keys 06:14:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_da.htm 06:15:04 stassats`: thanks 06:15:05 it basically says, "Don't check that the keyword arguments match the ones I say I accept." 06:15:11 it should speak for itself 06:15:17 Thus the better error checking if you don't use it. 06:17:22 clhs :allow-other-keys 06:17:23 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for :allow-other-keys. 06:24:29 -!- younder [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:24:45 younder [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 06:26:47 -!- Posterdati [n=tapioca@host254-13-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:27:23 Posterdati [n=tapioca@host82-223-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 06:32:35 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:34:11 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.217.66] has joined #lisp 06:35:29 -!- icylisper [n=user@115.99.32.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:36:36 hello #lisp 06:36:59 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:37:11 hey, cap'n schme. 06:39:44 oi tic! 06:41:04 hello schme 06:41:06 tic: So I started reading the opengl redbook to learn how to use cl-opengl. And there I am with a triangle drawn on screen, not filled, and it is spinning. And Lisa tells me it is *not* a spaceship?! 06:41:10 hello beach :) 06:41:24 How can one possibly make lisp games if triangles are *not* spaceships? 06:41:34 hoy, beach! 06:41:48 schme, wow, awesome! Lisperoids? 06:42:20 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:42:44 Not quite. 06:42:56 But something of the sort, sure :) 06:43:11 Atta boy. 06:43:31 But I've just started on chap3 of the opengl guide. I need to understand this stuff before I hit the tutorials again. I've tried 'em, no go. 06:44:02 Apperently Lisa has the crazy idea that for a triangle to be a spaceship it must fire bullets out of it's one corner and it must go PEW PEW PEW. 06:44:11 women.. what do they know about programming, eh? ;) 06:44:55 *tic* is happy: the dropped connections were two competing DHCPd on the network. 06:45:38 schme, it should, obviously, shoot parens from one of its sides! 06:45:49 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@c-69-143-33-196.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:47:29 hah! 06:47:41 What a good powerup idea :D 06:48:51 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:49:40 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:50:34 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-22-108.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:52:27 what kind of a triangle only has one corner? 06:55:22 well the one pointy corner. 06:55:54 hefner: this kind: http://www.scriblink.com/index.jsp?act=phome&roomid=4818&KEY=B1CEE94F523D8283A55C2A565C7CCE21 06:56:34 I draw the three sides in different colors. They're not curved, it's the space that's curved. 06:57:05 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:57:42 cute, java applet. haven't seen one of those in years. haven't had a browser supporting them in years.. 07:00:29 What I am wondering with cl-opengl is how one supplies vertex arrays. 07:01:23 probably the same way you provide any array to foreign code 07:01:46 hello 07:02:10 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 07:02:13 -!- Guest23079 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 07:02:56 hefner: :) 07:09:58 cmo-0 [n=user@92.99.40.38] has joined #lisp 07:11:09 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-26-221.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:15:20 manuel_ [n=manuel@91.89.172.94] has joined #lisp 07:19:01 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:19:06 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-68-222.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:20:39 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 07:21:45 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@202.57.45.50] has quit [Client Quit] 07:26:12 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:27:22 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 07:37:34 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:37:37 good morning 07:37:41 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 07:38:34 mornin' 07:38:40 Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 07:41:35 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.217.66] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:42:26 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:42:40 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 07:54:55 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:58:36 good morning schme 07:59:22 trebor_dki: Why are you being so selective today? 07:59:47 good morning everyone, especially for you beach ;) 07:59:59 Thanks trebor_dki! :) 08:01:13 i think my boss now is fully convinced that lisp was the right choice, i still am faster than the milestones ;) 08:01:54 trebor_dki: Congratulations! 08:01:59 trebor_dki, cool! 08:04:20 asksol [n=ask@249.241.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 08:05:40 Awesome! what do you use it for? 08:06:26 trebor_dki: congrats! 08:07:46 danlei [n=user@pD9E2EB58.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:23 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-127.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:08:57 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-127.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:08:58 3d-image analysis (micro-computer-tomography) for reinforced polymers 08:09:05 CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.111.60] has joined #lisp 08:09:29 (and percolation-simulation) 08:10:04 just reading that makes my brain hurt. 08:11:34 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.217.66] has joined #lisp 08:13:02 tcr: i was going by train to munich some monts ago because of your talk about slime ;) 08:13:07 *months 08:13:52 Yeah, right, but I can't associate any face to you. Will you come to Hamburg? 08:15:38 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:15:54 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:15:55 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:18:30 i am not sure about that - i will have to take 2 leave days (?=urlaubstage) for that ... 08:20:25 but i am just a yellow-belt lisp user (learning by doing) 08:21:42 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-125-158.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 08:25:48 oh, i see it is on sa & so :) - probality is definitely rising ;) 08:28:10 *splittist* wonders who "De Pascale, Pierre" is. 08:28:28 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:32:17 hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.18.19] has joined #lisp 08:33:15 trebor_dki, are you writing the software yourself or are you using some existing tools? 08:35:03 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.18.19] has quit [Client Quit] 08:36:20 nha [n=prefect@p3E9E59CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:38:04 lispm: i wrote everything on my own, the only library i am using (since yesterday) is alexandria 08:42:42 you are also a Maxima user? 08:43:18 yes, a little bit 08:46:17 hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.18.19] has joined #lisp 08:50:31 ejs [n=eugen@tarelka.tenet.odessa.ua] has joined #lisp 08:53:03 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-124-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:58:07 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-211-170.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 08:59:03 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:08:15 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 09:09:17 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:10:46 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 09:13:31 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:14:05 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 09:15:47 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:16:38 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 09:19:12 JHVH [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:19:12 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:20:10 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 09:20:45 ejs1 [n=eugen@tarelka.tenet.odessa.ua] has joined #lisp 09:22:49 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:49 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:23:56 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:24:37 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 09:26:02 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C37C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:20 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229236217.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:34:13 -!- ejs [n=eugen@tarelka.tenet.odessa.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:36:33 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-96-255-111-135.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 09:36:34 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:36:48 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-211-170.vodafone.hu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:37:03 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-211-170.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:37:33 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 09:39:37 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-120.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:39:37 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:41:40 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 09:42:12 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:24 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:43:05 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 09:44:28 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.111.60] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:45:51 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-92302.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 09:51:51 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:53:28 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.217.66] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:53:39 -!- JHVH is now known as Elench 09:54:49 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:55:30 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 09:55:41 -!- charitwo [n=charitwo@wikia/Charitwo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:57:06 charitwo [n=charitwo@wikia/Charitwo] has joined #lisp 09:57:06 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:57:33 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 09:58:45 c|mell [n=cmell@x250006.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 09:59:03 -!- dys` is now known as dys 09:59:22 Could you tell me how to send more than 1 file using CL-SMTP? I'm trying :attachments '("/file1" "/file2") but only file1 is sent... 10:00:26 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:00:41 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-12-7.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:02:24 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 10:03:21 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:04:21 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 10:05:39 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:11:23 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:11:56 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 10:12:20 -!- charitwo [n=charitwo@wikia/Charitwo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:18:00 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-156-172.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:18:08 charitwo [n=charitwo@wikia/Charitwo] has joined #lisp 10:18:41 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:20:53 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 10:21:05 serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-142-251.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:21:22 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 10:22:45 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:23:26 Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 10:24:03 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 10:27:18 Just added a CL example to Wikipedia's Duck typing article ;-) 10:27:20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_typing 10:28:53 <_3b> "TMethods" ? 10:28:57 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:29:10 -!- galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:29:13 galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:23 fixed 10:29:27 densem-jr [n=fasteez2@218.217.72-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:32 Nice. 10:30:54 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:31:30 Hun [n=hun@82.149.80.128] has joined #lisp 10:38:11 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:38:26 *hefner* really dislikes the term "duck typing", considers it an obviously brain-damaged philosophy, doesn't equate it with using generic functions 10:42:11 true, but these guys conquer a typical style of Lisp development and make it sound that it has been introduced with python 10:42:48 sure, but those clowns can't even get the names of their basic data types right. 10:43:21 haha, you are right 10:44:10 whenever you pass an object to a function and then call a generic function, then you are doing 'duck typing' 10:44:21 is that interactive repair thing specific to some lisp implementation? 10:44:48 no, that's provided by almost all CL repls 10:45:13 that's one of the basic development styles in Lisp 10:45:21 josemanuel [n=josemanu@87.222.1.90] has joined #lisp 10:45:35 I don't see it in sbcl, only retry, about and terminate-thread 10:45:52 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@87.222.1.90] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:46:00 just call (continue) 10:46:41 my gripe with "duck typing" arose the first time I tried to use Python for anything. along with "duck typing" came the dogma that you should use methods for everything, and never examine the type of objects. 10:47:21 (continue) just returns nil 10:47:30 that should be *abort, not about 10:48:04 retry, abort and terminate-thread 10:48:05 why is in-the-forest a method? 10:48:15 ..adhering to that, it seems impossible to decouple logically separate concepts like data versus its presentation, which is exactly the opposite of what I'd do with CLOS. 10:48:21 tic, to avoid introducing DEFUN 10:48:34 lispm, thought so. OK. 10:49:09 (and things like PyProtocols look like hacks on top of kludges) 10:49:10 drafael, hmm, SBCL lacks the restart 10:49:10 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 10:49:20 rstandy pasted "cl-smtp patch for multiple attachments" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83782 10:49:42 mrSpec: apply that patch to cl-smtp.lisp 10:49:55 drafael, should be added to SBCL, IMHO 10:50:09 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.217.66] has joined #lisp 10:50:11 *tic* got confused by the fact that print returns the string printed... 10:50:13 yeah, it does seem like a good idea 10:50:51 (the restart) 10:51:15 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-92302.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:53:07 doesn't the 'retry' restart in SBCL do the same thing as 'continue' in this context? .. getting the condition on missing method, then adding the missing method while in the slime debugger then hitting 'restart' executes or continues execution 10:53:28 err, hitting 'retry'* 10:53:37 i don't see the retry restart in the terminal repl 10:53:52 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:54:05 ah, perhaps it is something added by slime then 10:54:30 it doesn't 10:54:42 not for me anyway 10:55:07 in slime, drafael ? .. i'm using latest sbcl and slime from cvs 10:55:29 hefner, looks like you have programmed some Python ;-) 10:55:40 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 10:56:00 in slime yep, hitting restart just makes it reevaluate - it would make sense if it did, but no access to the repl is given 10:56:07 *retry 10:56:22 my fix and continue example was using CCL 10:57:14 huh .. the repl is always available, drafael .. just switch to the repl, then add the method, then switch back to the condition buffer and hit 'retry' 10:58:01 plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.195.148] has joined #lisp 10:58:06 |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E466D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:35 ah - the version of slime I have must be buggy - it doesn't print CL-USER> when in the debugger so I assumed that it was stuck there 10:59:39 well then! 11:00:00 then it prints CL-USER> in front of the return value when I hit retry 11:00:07 time to update slime then 11:00:14 perhaps a threaded sbcl is required 11:00:15 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@78.116.13.28] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:00:41 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:00:44 I'm using threads, and evaluating things works, I just never tried because it didn't print CL-USER> 11:00:54 ok 11:02:00 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:02:06 ah, yeah, got to to hit enter at the right spot to get a proper prompt or things end up somewhat backwards 11:02:30 on a Lispm one types :reinvoke to the debugger to try the call again 11:03:30 Pepe_ [n=ppjet@78.116.5.162] has joined #lisp 11:04:58 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.18.19] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:05:14 CLISP: 11:05:16 RETRY :R1 try calling QUACK again 11:05:18 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 11:05:51 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 11:07:55 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:10:43 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 11:13:34 method calls tends to show up as green frames in the slime backtrace with names like "sb-pcl::fast-method quack ..." takes some training getting used to filter out what's interesting and not 11:14:21 -!- _stern_ [n=seelenqu@217.228.105.59] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:14:29 ..hitting 'r' while hovering over those retries the call 11:14:58 for SBCL ? 11:15:05 yes 11:15:17 I wonder why this is not provided in a shell 11:15:48 retrying a function call (even if it is a generic function) sounds a typical thing to do 11:16:08 a direct method call in the repl generates some sort of inlined closure or something though .. so it doesn't show up as something trivially restartable .. but, say, a function calling a method -- or at least 1 step indirection(?) and they show up as restartable frames 11:17:02 could that be 'improved'? 11:17:03 -!- Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:17:11 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 11:17:37 or is it sufficient to have it in SLIME+SBCL? 11:17:44 (defmethod test ((x number)) (write-line "hi")) (defmethod pre-test () (write-line "pre") (test "huh")) #| or a defun; doesn't matter |# then CL-USER> (pre-test) and a green "2: ((SB-PCL::FAST-METHOD PRE-TEST NIL)" shows up 11:19:30 for my uses, depending on slime is fine (i can even work on remote, running sbcl instances via swank+tramp & some pathname rewriting) .. working with sbcl directly via the cli is horrible; i don't think anyone does that .. at least not much 11:22:33 still I would think it would be useful to add restarts like that 11:22:55 yeah 11:23:25 could possibly simplify the swank backend ? 11:23:35 for sbcl? 11:23:53 *lnostdal* doesn't know 11:24:04 i think swank depends on a lot of stuff in the sb-introspect package 11:26:00 what's the standard way to copy a 2d array? 11:27:55 I can't pass it as :initial-contents 11:28:00 alexandria has a copy-array function; (alexandria:copy-array (make-array '(3 3) :initial-contents '((0 1 2) (3 4 5) (6 7 8)))) => #2A((0 1 2) (3 4 5) (6 7 8)) 11:28:50 lnostdal: thanks 11:29:41 for the non reddit readers, here are some Lisp users reporting: 11:29:43 http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/91x7g/reddit_lispers_maybe_you_would_like_to_introduce/ 11:32:15 lnostdal: wait, does that return a new object? 11:32:26 Adlai: yes 11:32:40 Adlai: but it is not a simple-array anymore 11:33:23 nvm, I just checked at the REPL 11:33:27 serichsen: thanks. 11:33:31 Adlai: because, if i recall correctly, alexandria uses the double displacement dance to copy 11:34:16 yep, it uses :displaced-to and then #'adjust-array 11:34:22 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:34:37 Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:34:43 heh, yeah, that hack 11:37:16 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 11:38:06 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:40:40 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-211-170.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:41:31 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 11:42:10 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:42:34 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 11:43:29 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:44:00 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-117-37.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 11:44:35 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 11:45:35 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:46:38 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 11:48:41 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:48:55 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-36-239.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:49:36 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 11:50:37 elliotstern [n=chatzill@69.143.33.196] has joined #lisp 11:51:25 -!- Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:52:19 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:53:33 -!- fvw is now known as fvw_ 11:53:49 -!- fvw_ is now known as fvw 11:54:00 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:59:25 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 12:00:42 some really interesting stuff there, lispm 12:01:53 ..wrt. Naughty Dog; generating C seems like an interesting approach 12:03:41 we've generated a ton of Java from Lisp 12:03:56 rstandy: Thanks :) 12:05:19 mrSpec: wait, I've found a bug in my patch :-) 12:05:29 hehe oki :D 12:09:35 -!- binaryguy [n=binarygu@host86-150-248-6.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:09:39 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 12:12:24 -!- asksol [n=ask@249.241.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:12:32 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.93.32] has joined #lisp 12:13:48 -!- dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 12:18:41 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:25:08 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@tarelka.tenet.odessa.ua] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:29:29 lispm: You can restart from a frame in the Slime debugger, if the function of that frame was compiled with high enough debug settings. Restartable frames are shown in a green color in the Slime debugger. 12:30:10 Swank also provides a RETRY restart to conveniently repeat a Slime evaluation request 12:30:42 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 12:31:47 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 12:33:24 how does that work out, Phoodus ? .. can you redefine stuff at run-time etc.? (i don't know java/jvm stuff well; classloader?) 12:35:27 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:35:34 rstandy pasted "cl-smtp patch for multiple attachments" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83788 12:36:01 mrSpec: that is the correct patch (at least it works for me) 12:36:02 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-f3b97c55669f4ac8] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:36:11 oki :D thanks :) 12:36:26 I should replace this few lines in cl-smtp.lisp ? 12:36:42 or do something more? 12:36:57 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:37:24 mrSpec: first, forget the old patch (ie don't apply the previous changes to cl-smtp.lisp) 12:37:36 oki 12:38:24 then, copy the content of the lisppaste in a file called attachments.patch 12:38:28 ejs [n=eugen@tarelka.tenet.odessa.ua] has joined #lisp 12:39:18 mrSpec: copy from the line that contains "Index: attachments.lisp" 12:39:34 mrSpec: to the line that contains "--- 71,76 ----" 12:39:41 everything :] ok 12:40:00 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:40:14 mrSpec: ok :-) 12:40:15 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:41:24 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@69.143.33.196] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:45:09 ok, I've patched this file 12:45:29 but still something is wrong, reload cl-smtp is enough ? 12:45:37 or I should do something more? 12:46:35 mrSpec: you should simply recompile attachments.lisp 12:47:06 -!- ejs [n=eugen@tarelka.tenet.odessa.ua] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:48:04 mrSpec: please include my nickname when talking with me or I will not be notified of your messages 12:48:19 rstandy: ok 12:49:33 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-92302.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 12:49:35 elliotstern [n=chatzill@69.143.33.196] has joined #lisp 12:49:53 rstandy: could you tell me how to compile this file only? when I try compile-file I got error "cl-smtp does not designate any package" 12:50:20 mrSpec: are you using Slime? 12:50:25 yes 12:50:44 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.195.148] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:50:47 -!- pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 12:52:33 mrSpec: the simply open attachments.lisp and use the `C-c C-k' key combination 12:52:57 mrSpec: well you should obviously load cl-smtp package first 12:53:34 rstandy: ehh my mistake, sorry, compiled :] 12:53:37 Is there a pdf version of the sbcl manual? 12:53:50 mrSpec: ok 12:55:30 rstandy: thanks very much :) 2 attachments sent :D 12:55:52 mrSpec: you're welcome :-) 12:56:58 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:58:35 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 13:00:04 blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has joined #lisp 13:00:43 plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.195.148] has joined #lisp 13:01:17 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:01:30 -!- younder [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:01:58 younder [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 13:10:51 lat: I think you can make one from the sources 13:10:59 asksol [n=ask@213.236.208.22] has joined #lisp 13:13:09 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:13:12 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.195.148] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:13:29 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:13:33 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177126113.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:13:37 lispm [n=joswig@e177126113.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:13:54 -!- schme is now known as schmx 13:14:28 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 13:17:49 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:56 lat: In Ubuntu, there is /usr/share/doc/sbcl-doc/sbcl.pdf.gz as part of the package 13:19:01 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:33 tcr and serichsen , thanks! I found it. 13:29:14 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 13:33:45 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.217.66] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:36:16 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.93.32] has quit [Client Quit] 13:37:14 chessguy_ [n=chessguy@96.255.111.135] has joined #lisp 13:39:35 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.223.205] has joined #lisp 13:39:38 -!- chessguy_ [n=chessguy@96.255.111.135] has quit [Client Quit] 13:41:53 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@12.154.71.10] has quit [] 13:42:10 kpreid [n=kpreid@12.154.71.10] has joined #lisp 13:43:19 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:39 -!- asksol [n=ask@213.236.208.22] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:44:55 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 13:47:08 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-120.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:47:48 -!- Demosthenex [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:49:15 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:48 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 14:05:34 is one of the alexandria developers here? 14:05:38 blackwolf [n=blackwol@69.118.53.65] has joined #lisp 14:10:32 -!- schmx [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["leaving"] 14:11:16 mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068128186.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:33 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:14:20 Hi all, im just starting to do some basic threading with sbcl, and im wondering if there is a way to write from a thread to the repl's *standard-output* 14:14:40 mcspiff: save the repl's standard output value, write to that stream. 14:15:07 (defvar *repl-out* *standard-output*) in the repl, for example. 14:15:51 why cant you write directly to *standard-output* from the new thread ? 14:16:10 well, when I attempt to nothing shows up? 14:16:44 lhz: it's possible that it's using a global value for *standard-output* that differ's from the repl thread's value. 14:16:53 mcspiff: are you using slime? if so, check *inferior-lisp* 14:17:12 Xach: Bingo 14:17:34 Xach: using *inferior-lisp* 14:18:34 that is the global value of *standard-output* 14:18:48 the slime repl has a thread-local value 14:18:54 Xach: oh yes, the unfortunate slime user :) 14:19:00 Xach: and using the defvar'd output does exactly what I want 14:19:53 lhz: if slime is wrong I dont wanna be right ;-) 14:21:39 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:21:58 lhz: unless theres something better, and free. In which case, ill do that ;-) 14:22:10 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:22:34 mcspiff: A lisper had a problem and could not find a solution. "I know," said the lisper, "I'll just use Slime!" The lisper now had two problems. 14:26:41 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.93.32] has joined #lisp 14:26:49 mcspiff: lhz will use ILISP for life 14:27:04 Xach: ahh. To each his own. 14:27:22 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:18 joswig [n=joswig@e177126113.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:31:52 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177126113.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:31:59 birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.231] has joined #lisp 14:35:25 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-59-31.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["leaving"] 14:36:29 slava [n=slava@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 14:36:58 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:37:46 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.93.32] has quit [Client Quit] 14:38:01 lispm [n=joswig@f054054105.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:40:02 mcspiff: Put (setf swank:*globally-redirect-io* t) into your ~/.swank.lisp 14:41:12 serichsen: I'm not a developer of Alexandria, but I do care about its development; what's the matter? 14:43:09 mcspiff: Alternatively you can do (defun slime-repl-stream () (swank::connection.user-output (swank::default-connection))) 14:43:13 tcr: o cool, thanks 14:46:21 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@69.143.33.196] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:47:02 _stern_ [n=seelenqu@217.228.58.8] has joined #lisp 14:48:11 -!- Jarvellis is now known as Elench 14:50:04 levy_ [n=levy@apn-94-44-0-162.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 14:50:25 tcr: just something Adlai's question made me remember -- about alexandria's copy-array 14:51:55 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-12-7.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:53:25 krumholt [n=krumholt@92.193.105.46] has joined #lisp 14:53:35 tcr: there was a discussion about that in the lisp forum last month: http://www.lispforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=383#p2554 14:54:49 -!- joswig [n=joswig@e177126113.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:55:25 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:56:33 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@12.154.71.10] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:00:34 ivank [i=ivan@93.97.51.193] has joined #lisp 15:00:35 -!- lispm [n=joswig@f054054105.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:00:53 Along with my realization that make-array :initial-contents could be vectors of vectors, come the possibility of extracting slices of multidimentional arrays by first describing the slice with (vectors of)* displaced arrays, to be passed to make-array. 15:01:09 if i have a list '(a b c) how do i get just the items a b c 15:01:15 as in not in list form 15:01:35 clhs destructuring-bind 15:01:36 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_destru.htm 15:02:28 segv [n=mb@p4FC1FE27.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:39 pjb: Wouldn't it be simpler to just translate the coordinates? 15:03:06 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-185-233.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:03:09 Well the question really is what is meant by "getting just the items"? 15:03:37 Zhivago: oh, you mean for the slice extraction. 15:03:46 Yeah. 15:04:06 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E466D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:04:10 Zhivago: if you want to "displace" a structure to the multidimensional array, yes, you could abstract the displacement as a function with new indices. 15:04:39 Zhivago: otherwise, it depends on your implementation. In clisp is often worthwhile to let the implementation do the work, rather than doing it yourself... 15:05:01 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 15:05:23 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 15:06:36 Zhivago: actually, a displaced array is just that: a coordinate translation. 15:07:07 Somewhat limited, but you get the basic functionality. 15:07:12 piso: great to see XCL is still humming along 15:07:39 well, it's started to hum along again, after about a year off 15:07:48 how's life? 15:08:17 ah, well I just decided to check it out again and noticed the recent snapshot 15:08:22 lispm [n=joswig@f054054105.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:09:12 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.223.205] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 15:09:34 piso: have you looked at using llvm? 15:09:43 no 15:09:43 its pretty impressive these days 15:10:06 I haven't looked at it recently 15:11:41 I'm afraid something like llvm might take all the fun out of it 15:12:16 minion: tell me about XCL 15:12:17 Fade: please see XCL: XCL is a Common lisp implementation licensed under GPL. http://www.cliki.net/XCL 15:12:36 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:48 piso: depends on whether you consider interfacing with complex C++ libraries 'fun' I guess :) 15:13:24 I'm actually a fan of assembly language backends (for real processors) 15:13:35 marcel [n=marcel@dslb-084-063-057-196.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:48 s/processors/CPU's/ 15:15:48 -!- marcel [n=marcel@dslb-084-063-057-196.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:15:54 define one for Cell. :) 15:15:59 joswig [n=joswig@f054054105.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:16:02 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:16:44 right 15:16:55 :) 15:16:59 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-142-251.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:17:36 Pepe__ [n=ppjet@78.116.5.162] has joined #lisp 15:17:42 what is the current state of XCL? 15:18:08 148 out of 21581 total tests failed 15:18:15 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@78.116.5.162] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:18:29 see http://armedbear.org 15:18:56 Dfcnvt [n=Dfcnvt@cpe-74-74-215-106.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:19:02 hey slava, ported factor to iphone yet? 15:19:20 -!- lispm [n=joswig@f054054105.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 15:20:46 xcl is at parity with abcl? 15:21:02 no, abcl's a bit further along 15:21:17 *nod* 15:21:18 xcl is much faster, however 15:21:30 ABCL got like 40-50, but even SBCL fails on 35-40 iirc 15:22:17 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 15:22:37 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:22:50 sohail: I'm not a fan of the app store policies, although I admit the 3gs is pretty nice 15:22:54 are there any lisp implementations on the iphone yet? 15:23:08 I thought I heard about a scheme 15:23:21 gambit generates C which works on the iphone, iirc 15:23:26 but come on, compiling to C is cheating :) 15:23:27 slava, I know, pre is not much better... but you can do some cool stuff with location based services 15:23:51 i've been wondering more about android wrt lisp 15:24:06 you'd want a lisp which compiles to android's shitty jvm 15:24:07 I imagine clojure would be the closest to having android as a target. 15:24:25 except android doesn't support runtime bytecode generation 15:24:44 nor does it understand the sun jvm class file format 15:24:52 buh 15:25:28 Well, they don't allow interpreters or something. 15:26:08 apparently you are allowed as long as you don't download code on the fly 15:26:08 I imagine an sbcl port is out of the question due to resource constraints. 15:26:26 ecl seems to be the best bet for CL on the iphone 15:26:29 sbcl doesn't target arm at this stage 15:27:12 well, android runs on more than arm atm. 15:27:25 isn't the HTC gear x86-oid? 15:27:48 ah, I thought you were talking about iphone. android runs java code 15:28:18 there's no elf program loader in android? 15:28:22 you can't really do much with C code there, because all the APIs are java-only 15:28:25 I haven't looked at it vey closely. 15:28:28 there is. its a linux system with a hacked up libc and userspace 15:28:38 but the graphics and phone APIs are only accessible in java 15:28:45 ahh 15:28:58 so, you could have a native compiler, in theory, but you'd want a java ffi for it to be usable, and this sounds like too much hassle 15:29:11 especially since google said that the native userspace ABI is subject to change without notice 15:30:30 lispm [n=joswig@f054054105.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:31:16 -!- joswig [n=joswig@f054054105.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:32:59 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-36-239.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:33:52 awfaw [n=gawgaw@host250.190-224-109.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 15:34:19 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-82-32.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:34:49 minon: logs 15:34:52 minion: logs 15:34:53 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 15:35:49 hi gigamonkey 15:36:02 planning a sequel to PCL any time soon? :) 15:37:38 slava: sadly, I'm so tired of dealing with Apress that I've lost most of my interested (which was high a few weeks ago) for doing an expanded 2nd edition of PCL. 15:38:06 Instead I'm thinking about writing a giant book about software for a general (i.e. non-programmer) audience. 15:38:13 -!- Pegazus [n=gawgaw@host250.190-224-109.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:38:14 And maybe a "Practical C" book. ;-) 15:38:54 is "kreuter" Richard Kreuter's nick--I can't find it in any of the recent logs. 15:38:59 ah, "why does my DVD player have to be rebooted sometimes?"-type book for grandma? 15:39:16 there's not enough lisp coverage, and C is already covered by K&R and by the "traps and pitfalls" book. ;) 15:39:45 slava: Perhaps. But an in-depth look at questions like that for interested amateurs. 15:39:48 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 15:39:50 what's up /w apress? 15:39:53 gigamonkey, how about you develop a commercial desktop app for mac,windows & linux in lisp and write a book about how you did it 15:40:03 :D 15:40:08 Fade: well, probably not enough Lisp coverage true. But I think there's a niche to be filled in the C world 15:40:59 I think there are lots of folks who come into programming these days via Python and Ruby, etc. but suffer C envy because they know those languages are (mostly) implemented *in* C. 15:41:20 You could write a book about C from that perspective also looking at how, if ever, C *should* be used any more. 15:41:22 And they are trying to learn C by banging on the keyboard like monkeys, which has worked for them in python and ruby ... 15:41:27 *sohail* prefers sohail's idea 15:41:30 :-) 15:42:06 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:42:11 there's a class of 'programmers', mostly people working with php and javascript that will never grok anything outside the webular context. 15:42:12 Fade: Apress just doesn't seem that helpful to me. I spend a lot of time waiting for replies to seemingly simple questions and the stuff the do do doesn't feel like it makes my life easier. 15:42:23 I have no idea whether that's really different from any publisher. 15:42:31 Maybe I just have unreasonable expectations. 15:42:31 I don't think we win by porting them to other environments. 15:43:01 Actually, I think that giga has a point with C for python programmers. 15:43:07 they don't assign you an editor for your specific stuff? 15:43:27 Fade: but there are also people who could understand C but the current crop of books sets the bar just a bit too high, partly because the current books don't show how to make the leap from the language (well covered in K&R) to actually using the language. 15:43:28 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:43:51 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 15:43:54 Just like the existing Lisp books made it a bit too hard (IMO) for people to get into Lisp. Thus my interest in PCL. 15:43:55 I'd rather see a lisp cookbook, personally. 15:44:10 I think slime is worth a book, too. 15:44:10 Fade: well, no one who has actually read my book and given me any feedback. 15:44:11 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:44:12 pkhuong` [n=pkhuong@abaddon.networkdump.com] has joined #lisp 15:44:35 SLIME would have been covered some in my hypothetical 2nd ed. PCL. 15:44:54 see, I'd buy another copy for that. ;) 15:45:00 be sure to check the slime book out of CVS HEAD 15:45:07 The problem, for me, writing a Lisp book, is I need to write something that would have a bigger potential audience than PCL. 15:45:14 the 1ST-EDITION tag is way too old 15:45:15 joswig [n=joswig@f054054105.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:45:33 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 15:45:36 I guess it means coverage of things like cffi and doing graphical applications in lisp. 15:45:53 2nd ed. PCL is the only way I could imagine doing that--if I added enough new stuff that at least some buyers of the 1st ed. would come back and at the same time attract new readers. 15:46:51 I'm a bit late with this comment, but... I'm not really sure a book about C would be that popular. Most python/ruby guys I know just learn from other code or tutorials. That doesn't make them good C programmers, but I'm not sure if the book would be popular 15:47:13 I think it might be , there are not good C books 15:47:19 -!- lispm [n=joswig@f054054105.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:47:20 minion: memo for kreuter: When you give them your talk, please mention that you are not the last person on Earth who thinks CL pathnames are a good idea. I do too! 15:47:20 Remembered. I'll tell kreuter when he/she/it next speaks. 15:47:23 k&r is still the only decent one 15:47:29 oreilly already has at least partial coverage of the topic iirc. 15:47:35 It's hard to get good C/python/ruby book 15:47:58 It's getting over the 'banging on the keyboard like a monkey' hurdle. 15:47:58 so a lot of ppl like reading online tutorials 15:48:00 araujo: What I mean is, the python/ruby crowd learns from tutorials, other snippets of code etc. 15:48:05 *Xach* registers for the boston lisp meeting 15:48:10 So they will approach C in that same manner 15:48:30 lispm [n=joswig@f054054105.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:48:39 -!- joswig [n=joswig@f054054105.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:48:50 anyhow, I'd like to see more lisp coverage of the quality of PCL. 15:48:52 Sikander, and? , that still doesn't change the fact we don't have good C books 15:49:12 Fade: yeah, so we just need to figure out how to make producing said material pay the mortgage. ;-) 15:49:16 i am aware that i'm probably in a very small choir, being a lisp lover. 15:49:51 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:49:52 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:49:55 araujo: I was commenting on popularity 15:50:20 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 15:50:22 araujo: of such a book 15:50:30 -!- Dfcnvt [n=Dfcnvt@cpe-74-74-215-106.rochester.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 15:50:50 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:51:01 gigamonkey: perhaps newriders or oreilly would be ammenable to working with you on a PCL update. 15:51:18 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 15:51:39 Sikander, there is still plenty of room for a good C book 15:52:51 araujo: I totally agree with you there. My initial comment was related to popularity when targeting the python/ruby crowd 15:54:03 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-67.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:55:01 Demosthenex [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 15:55:25 lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-22-9.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:33 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 15:55:36 Sikander, python/ruby are different languages 15:55:38 than C 15:56:05 *Sikander* sighs. 15:56:08 araujo: never mind 15:56:37 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-67.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 15:56:37 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:57:19 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 15:57:21 what I mean is ... they shouldn't really learn C like learning those languages 15:57:38 Who's going to tell them that? 15:57:52 And I do think there might be a good chance for a C book to be popular 15:57:54 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:58:00 ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:12 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:58:26 Sikander, the C compiler 15:58:36 I was saying that those type of books aren't in their culture (at least for as far as I've observed) 15:58:42 it usually tells them so 15:58:53 or the program they try to write 15:59:04 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 15:59:11 Sikander, that doesn't mean a good C book cannot be popular 15:59:22 and that's my point 15:59:23 (Somewhat tongue in cheek;) SICP and 3years experience are a prerequisite for C 15:59:24 CodeMagus [n=yvon@dualxdrive.com] has joined #lisp 15:59:29 bgs101 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 15:59:29 It's still possible to learn C and make programs from web tutorials and source code from other programs. I'm not saying anything about the quality, though... 15:59:35 I am not intended to convert python/ruby programmers into C 15:59:41 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:59:51 -!- bgs101 is now known as bgs100 15:59:51 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:59:52 sikander: Did you learn C like that? 15:59:58 Zhivago: no 16:00:02 *CodeMagus* say hello to everybody 16:00:06 hi 16:00:07 sikander: How did you learn C? :) 16:00:15 Zhivago: cs 16:00:15 I don't know anybody who learned C well who didn't learn it from K&R. 16:00:16 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:20 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 16:00:21 minion: pastebin 16:00:22 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``pastebin''. 16:00:27 Zhivago: and books 16:00:29 sikander: int a[3]; What is the type of a? 16:00:34 gigamonkey: I'd be interested in such a C book. 16:00:47 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:01:02 Zhivago: I thought this was #lisp.... int* 16:01:06 hah 16:01:13 giga: You'd better write that book. 16:01:17 gigamonkey: And I'd probably buy it if it was written by you. 16:01:18 haha 16:01:43 mcspiff pasted "Undefined variable" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83790 16:01:46 sikander: If you want to know why that answer is wrong, come to ##c. 16:01:46 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:02:20 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 16:02:22 if someone could take a quick look at that and explain why OBJ is undefined when the binding for *bidder* is created id be grateful 16:03:02 mcspiff: it's explained in: 16:03:02 Your pasted code doesn't create *bidder* 16:03:03 clhs let 16:03:03 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm 16:03:12 Well, after 15 years of not using C... 16:03:12 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:03:51 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 16:03:57 sikander: It's mainly due to having learned the wrong mental model at the start -- you'd hardly get float x; what is the type of x wrong, would you? 16:04:01 whoops got my let and lambda in the wrong order 16:04:06 thanks Zhivago, pjb 16:04:30 pjb annotated #83790 "create the variable before using it." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83790#1 16:04:35 Zhivago: You're saying a is not a pointer to an int? 16:04:39 also, the earmuffs sort of imply a global variable. 16:04:44 Yes, and let's talk about it elsewhere. 16:04:49 did you create it outside the scope of the paste with defvar? 16:04:49 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:04:53 I'm in ##c 16:05:02 Sikander: it's an array of 3 ints. 16:05:11 Fade: na, i just totally screwed up my bindings ;-) 16:05:18 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 16:05:28 Fade: been hacking away on non-working code, might be time to scrap and start over 16:05:28 :) 16:06:50 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250006.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:07:14 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:51 c|mell [n=cmell@x250002.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 16:09:01 what Im trying to do set a object's slot to a lambda, and have a binding to the object established inside the lambda 16:09:16 or around the lambda or whatever 16:10:08 pjb: Yeah, but a is a pointer to a[0] 16:10:17 that doesn't sound kosher to me... but I'm not a clos expert. 16:10:21 mcspiff: could you elaborate on the second part? 16:10:39 Sikander: no, it's compatible with a pointer to a[0]. But it's an array. 16:10:40 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 16:10:51 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:11:01 Sikander, re-read Zhivago question 16:11:06 mcspiff: indeed, why don't you just write a method? 16:11:23 pjb: ...because thats way too easy 16:11:43 specialise it on the initialise-instance generic? 16:11:43 *mcspiff* just discovered why CLOS has eql specializers 16:11:48 mcspiff: the usual way to fake letrec in that case is to have something like (let (obj) (setf obj (make-obj ... (lambda () [refer to obj]))). 16:11:50 pjb araujo : sure, you're right. Well, after 15 years of not using C, I'm amazed I could still remember that it could be used that way anyway 16:12:15 *sellout-* wonders if LispWorks will ever learn how to distribute a Mac app. 16:12:20 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 16:12:29 joswig [n=joswig@f054054105.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:12:43 -!- lispm [n=joswig@f054054105.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:12:55 heheh, interestingly, this spawned a conversation in ##c about when to use an array and when to use a pointer and malloc :) (sorry, last off-topic) 16:13:05 pkhuong`: thats what i was attempting to do, but that method is much clearer. ill try that first 16:13:52 sikander: Well, since you haven't said anything in ##c, I guess you're not interested. 16:14:49 Zhivago: D'oh, I'm registering 16:14:49 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:15:26 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 16:15:29 Zhivago: and also doing 10 other things at the same time :) 16:15:33 Anyhow, writing a book on "Arrays are not pointers" would probably justify itself. :) 16:15:59 Zhivago: C++ makes that clear. 16:16:07 But from the perspective of the language, within the scope of the variable, there's no difference in C, is there? 16:16:25 <_3b> Sikander: sizeof(a); 16:16:44 <[df]> Zhivago: http://c-faq.com/aryptr/index.html is a pretty good attempt 16:16:48 pkhuong`: that worked a treat, thanks 16:17:18 pkhuong: Hmm, I don't think so. Plenty of C++ programmers have to same confusion as sikander. 16:17:24 Sikander: there's also with multi-dimensional arrays. they work pretty differently when not leaving scope 16:17:46 Zhivago: they must find some compilation failures pretty mysterious then. 16:17:54 hun: Uh, what does 'leaving scope' have to do with multi-dimensional arrays? 16:18:18 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:37 Zhivago: when they leave scope, they have to be compiled as pointers-to-pointers 16:19:56 when only local, the lookup can be done much more efficiently (like a[x + y*scale]) 16:19:57 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:20:07 hun: If you are talking about C, then come to ##c so that I can explain why you are completely wrong. 16:20:18 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 16:20:55 Zhivago: I feel like you're tricking everyone into switching from Lisp to C. 16:21:11 Just the confused ones. 16:21:32 Zhivago: I stand by my statement. 16:22:03 Anyhow, you can't truly hate C until you understand it properly. 16:22:31 Hun: void foo (int x[3][4]) is valid. 16:22:34 -!- charitwo [n=charitwo@wikia/Charitwo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:22:35 I dunno. I feel like K&R made me actually appreciate it. 16:23:00 md1 [n=user@85-135-169-32.adsl.slovanet.sk] has joined #lisp 16:23:39 jelly12gen [n=jelle@212-182-142-51.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 16:24:15 charitwo [n=charitwo@wikia/Charitwo] has joined #lisp 16:24:31 C++ made me appreaciate C! 16:24:38 -a 16:24:45 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 16:25:19 lol 16:25:20 this is an interesting talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5RqAz_AZSE 16:25:21 C is nice 16:25:28 hun: Well, when you want to get unconfused, come back. :) 16:25:30 Fade: old one :P 16:25:36 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-124-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:39 *Fade* just came across it 16:25:53 I don't understand all the buzz about Phosphorus. It's an ill-timed April prank. 16:26:00 Don't blogger realize it? 16:26:02 +s 16:26:05 -!- CodeMagus [n=yvon@dualxdrive.com] has quit [] 16:26:32 ok i have a short lisp question , i want to get an random line out an file or hash , what is easier the hash or something like read-line ? 16:26:43 sorry. this is #c 16:27:00 file or hash? 16:27:01 jelly12gen: hash 16:27:05 pjb: aha ok 16:27:12 jelly12gen: so you don't need to read the file. 16:27:16 (sxhash (random 42)) 16:27:24 pjb: nice 16:27:34 pjb: i am a noob at hashes time to learn that :D 16:28:08 jelly12gen: I don't understand your question. 16:28:19 pjb: wich ? 16:28:34 the original 16:28:34 ? 16:28:37 Perhaps you mean a hash-table? 16:28:46 yeah 16:28:52 You've got lines in a file, and you've got entries in a hash-table. 16:29:25 hmm and a hash-table is also a file ? 16:29:30 Well, for the hash-table it'd depend on the keys. Probably you will have to collect them first into a vector (with map-hash), and the choose one key at random. 16:29:40 jelly12gen: No. 16:29:46 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:29:58 jelly12gen: no a file containint lines you will read it as a mere sequence of lines. 16:30:01 weird question, is it possible to have a stream for something other than characters? 16:30:02 jelly12gen: We're all confused about getting something at random out of a hash-table OR a file. 16:30:08 jelly12gen: unless you parse them as key/values or something else. 16:30:10 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.219.75] has joined #lisp 16:30:12 mcspiff: Sure 16:30:24 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:30:34 jelly12gen: you'll have to write two different functions. 16:30:42 I've added a useless DEFCLASS example to the CLASS page at Wikipedia 16:30:43 mcspiff: bytes. For arbitrary objects, you want something unportable like gray streams. 16:30:44 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_(computer_science)#Common_Lisp 16:30:53 mcspiff: Streams have an element-type, you can specify it with the :element-type keyword parameter 16:31:12 pkhuong`: sounds like exactly what i want 16:31:19 jelly12gen: Oh hang on I get it. You are trying to decide if to store random stuff in a file or in a hash-table, and wondering what will make it easiest to pick one at random. 16:31:27 jelly12gen: hash-table for sure. 16:31:29 jelly12gen: also, you'd process the file differently if you can load it in memory (therefore it's not a file anymore, but a sequence of string) or if you cannot (therefore you must build an index, perhaps in memory, perhaps on disk depending on the size of the index, before choosing one line at random). 16:31:34 Or you know, use a queue. 16:32:15 pkhuong`: im looking to broadcast to several threads that an event just occured. Would a gray stream make sense? 16:32:23 mcspiff: no, use a queue. 16:32:33 heheh, so Zhivago set me straight on some stuff. Maybe I will try my hand again at some C after so long :) 16:32:35 pjb: Why do you have build an index? You FILE-POSITION to a random position, grovel to the next newline character, issue READ-LINE 16:32:36 pkhuong`: ok 16:32:40 pjb: or use reservoir sampling for a single-pass algorithm 16:32:59 tcr: non-uniform. 16:33:06 Or just (progn (file-position (random (file-length f)) s) (read-line s) (read-line s)) but this introduce a bias in addition to favoring long lines. 16:33:21 pjb: actually, lines directly following long ones. 16:33:30 Right. 16:34:50 lde [n=nuser@62.121.65.184] has joined #lisp 16:34:51 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:35:26 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 16:35:40 pkhuong`: queues arent in the standard are they 16:36:12 What's a queue but a pair of stacks, back to back :) 16:36:38 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:36:39 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:36:57 Zhivago: aha o I agree, but generally sbcl implements things better than I do ;-) 16:37:21 mcspiff: nikodemus's lock-free queues are now an SBCL contrib. 16:37:42 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 16:38:10 the swank-backends implement a mailbox, too 16:38:31 Or you can write a very simple lock+condition variable based one. 16:38:43 Something I'm not entirely clear on: are sbcl fasls bytecode, or native code? Most importantly, can I exchange them between different archs or not? 16:39:00 combined with simple event messaging functions 16:39:39 Sikander: FASLs are an object code format containing pretty much arbitrary code or objects. They can't be used across architectures (or versions, sometimes). 16:39:42 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:39:54 joswig: looks good, for the stated purpose ;). I wonder if one could add some hint regarding dispatch. 16:39:54 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:40:08 pkhuong: so native code objects? 16:40:13 pkhuong`: ABCL recently introduced synchronized-on which works like the synchronized keyword in Java. Very pleasant to use because it nicely sweeps mutexes+condition variables under the carpet for you 16:40:20 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 16:40:21 what hint would you want? 16:40:52 pkhuong`: speaking that the assignment is about threading, thats probably whats expected of me ;-) 16:41:37 joswig: something like "Methods can dispatch on multiple objects' classes, and are thus not 'part' of a single object or class." 16:41:45 pkhuong: thanks for reference to reservoir sampling 16:41:46 tcr: one extra word per clos object? Not so sure. 16:41:49 I was looking at some other wikipedia pages (method, object, ...), but they are so f*cked up, that it would not help to have some CL blurb there 16:42:23 serichsen: flavors defined methods already outside classes, but was single dispatch 16:42:44 naunsins [i=charles_@120.138.100.81] has joined #lisp 16:42:51 joswig: yeah, that maybe non sequitur. 16:43:04 pkhuong`: Well, dunno how Java Objects are implemented given that every Object can act as monitor. Perhaps one of the reason why Java is so memory-hungry... 16:43:05 Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:20 I find that writing "The above paragraphs are incorrect." on the front page, and then a diatribe in the discussion page seems to work out pretty well 16:43:30 hi Fare 16:43:44 hi dude 16:43:45 hi, fe[nl]ix 16:43:46 Fare, memo from rudybot: eli told me to tell you: for CL-style tracing of functions see the `trace' macro -- http://docs.plt-scheme.org/mzlib/mzlib_trace.html#(form._((lib._mzlib/trace..ss)._trace)) 16:43:49 dude! 16:43:56 asksol [n=ask@249.241.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:44:20 tcr: the usual way nowadays is something like an additional slot for CAS purposes that's upgraded to a lock when there's contention. 16:44:37 pkhuong`: From a user point of view it's still very nice that you can use (synchronized-on *global-hashtable* ...) instead of having to introduce a new global variable for the lock. 16:44:51 *Fare* wonders which of the XCVB TODO items to do first... so many of them! 16:44:58 pkhuong`: essentially its a multi-threaded auction program, I need to broadcast from the auctioneer to the bidders that a a successful bid was just placed, and that the countdown has began ("going once, going twice..") 16:44:59 joswig: I am just concerned that some random "OO-wise reader" may just think "weird, cannot work, not OO" when reading that. 16:44:59 There's also one word for EQ hashing. Java objects are expected to be heavier weight than, say, cons cells. 16:45:03 serichsen, though I wonder how other languages with multimethods are doing it? also outside classes 16:45:17 tcr: you can already create synchronized hash tables that include a lock. 16:45:47 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:46:00 pkhuong`: Sure. 16:46:01 joswig: I am not aware of other languages with multiple dispatch, though my experience is admittedly limited. 16:46:07 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.80.117] has joined #lisp 16:46:08 mcspiff, problem with such auctions is that you can underbid if you're able to DoS the other bidders 16:46:14 serichsen, in Lisp you would not put methods inside classes, even for single dispatch 16:46:21 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 16:46:25 serichsen: it enables incremental change 16:46:31 mcspiff, hence your site will be a place for bad guys to buy stuff they sell on ebay afterwards 16:46:43 serichsen: which is important for an interactive language 16:47:00 tcr: so basically, you only have to (make-hash-table :synchronized t), and use with-locked-hash-table. 16:47:02 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@76.122.37.30] has joined #lisp 16:47:06 Fare: aha just a homework assignment, and i think the DoS is in the question not the implementatino sadly 16:47:10 joswig: I am aware of the advantages :). 16:47:23 serichsen: imagine that you would need to type the whole class definition at the REPL, that's the real reason 16:47:23 -!- naunsins [i=charles_@120.138.100.81] has left #lisp 16:47:53 pkhuong`: C'm on that was just an example. 16:48:25 mortenaa [n=mortenaa@119.80-202-241.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:48:32 joswig: the difference between the C# and teh CL examples on that wikipedia page is quite entertaining. :) 16:48:43 joswig: Ruby can "reopen" an existing class 16:48:45 tcr: once we have consistent EQ hashing, I can see non-lossy ways. 16:49:49 pkhuong`: You mean storing locks for arbitrary objects in a hash-table, implcitly to the user? Lazily? 16:49:49 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:50:00 Fade: that also comes from the strange "mooooore whiiiitespaaaaceee" coding standards 16:50:11 -!- mortenaa [n=mortenaa@119.80-202-241.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 16:50:23 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 16:50:39 mcspiff, you might as well program a static webpage that gives your bank account number to the bad guys. It's an equivalent program, and much easier to write. 16:50:42 tcr: sort of. We can map multiple objects to the same lock and avoid a lot of complexity. It's just for convenience anyway, right? ;) 16:51:13 Fare: Agreed, but the mark on it might be less than desirable. 16:51:15 Fare: it's a contrived exercise in lock+condvar that offers a good set of opportunities for race conditions. 16:51:31 pkhuong`: exactly. 16:51:49 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@c-69-181-124-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:50 I hate contrived exercises 16:51:57 when there are so many useful things to write 16:52:10 serichsen: pffft! In CLOS you can add methods without having to "re-open" a class! 16:52:27 pkhuong`: Convenience, yeah, and it's a little bit more expressive than using mutexes directly. Like, if you have some object, or structure, you can say "I want mutual exlusion on this object", instead of "I want mutual exclusion for the lock which this object contains" 16:52:57 pjb: I didn't say that I like Ruby ;). It's just that you don't have to retype the whole class definition there, either. 16:53:17 the "multithreaded" requirement is also contrived 16:53:36 tcr: right. So consistent EQ hashing, and the rest can be built with regular user code. 16:53:56 Fare: Wrap your head around this one, its for an operating system design class. 16:54:05 even worse 16:54:09 Fare: contrived doesn't begin to describe this question 16:54:13 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:22 I don't want an OS designed by anyone who took your class -- or worse, teaches it 16:54:27 pkhuong: Now please tell me what you mean with consisten EQ hashing, and why the current affair of things stand in the way? 16:54:28 Or, actually... pin the object and then lock. 16:54:57 what univ is that, anyway? 16:55:12 pkhuong It's to do with the garbage collector moving stuff around, I assume? 16:55:14 tcr: we don't have identity-based hash codes. The best we can do is to rehash after a gc. 16:55:19 right 16:55:28 Fare: im in computer engineering, which is just an electrical engineering degree with more emphasis on programming. I promise not to touch any OSs 16:55:43 Fare: Dalhousie, http://www.dal.ca 16:55:54 another canuck. :) 16:55:58 we're everywhere. 16:56:07 heh 16:56:10 Fare: right (: 16:56:37 -!- md1 [n=user@85-135-169-32.adsl.slovanet.sk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:57:10 tcr: I may have something for you in a couple hours. 16:57:19 Fare: http://users.cs.dal.ca/~morven/CSCI3120/asgn3.htm thats the actual assignment. Note: im not asking anyone to do my homework. 16:57:59 pkhuong`: Show me tomorrow, I've got to quit. Otherwise I'll never get myself to the books. 16:58:55 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 16:59:33 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:59:33 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:59:44 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 17:00:04 -!- levy_ [n=levy@apn-94-44-0-162.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 17:00:08 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@c-69-181-124-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:52 *Fare* suspects that problem with :save-runtime-options might be due to starting from an earlier saved image... 17:02:49 Fare: i could not reproduce it, but i don't have the same version 17:03:02 |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E43CD2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:14 I could -- only happens when my dumping sbcl was itself resumed from an executable image 17:06:26 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:06:52 interesting 17:07:29 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Success] 17:08:19 Fare: i can't reproduce that either. 17:08:34 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:08:56 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-124-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:25 -!- ausente is now known as dalton 17:12:18 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:12:52 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-27-224.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:15:25 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 17:16:13 -!- jelly12gen [n=jelle@212-182-142-51.ip.telfort.nl] has quit ["leaving"] 17:20:18 -!- _stern_ [n=seelenqu@217.228.58.8] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:23:07 alexsuraci [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:54 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 17:24:55 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:25:19 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 17:25:20 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 17:25:51 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:27:09 dialtone1 [n=dialtone@c-69-181-124-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:27 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 17:29:09 ausente2 [n=user7994@187.34.42.160] has joined #lisp 17:29:44 -!- ausente2 is now known as dalton 17:32:25 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 17:37:25 Hum...is bruno a decent movie, I wonder...tempted to go today, but meh 17:37:26 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:37:43 i suspect there is some lisp in it, but only coincidentally 17:37:54 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:38:45 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["No lispy, no watchy"] 17:38:57 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:40:58 Xach: In the movie or in the comment? 17:41:58 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Success] 17:43:01 -!- mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068128186.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:44:20 -!- ausente [n=user7994@187.10.22.185] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:44:35 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:47:04 -!- alexsuraci [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:51:23 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:02 Drakeson [n=user@69-196-191-139.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 17:56:39 what do you suggest for storing, and retrieving (e.g., searching, browsing, etc.) of *lisp examples and snippets while one is coding (using emacs + slime)? 17:57:21 Xach: I sent a mail to the list 17:57:30 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:58:29 -!- dialtone1 [n=dialtone@c-69-181-124-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 17:59:01 rolly1975 [n=rory@5ac03a96.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 18:03:04 -!- awfaw [n=gawgaw@host250.190-224-109.telecom.net.ar] has left #lisp 18:04:35 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-124-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:56 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Client Quit] 18:08:51 dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f73793b.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 18:14:40 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735d1a.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:15:34 Drakeson: Installing all of Edi Weitz packages is a good reference for code examples, if I understand you correctly. 18:16:01 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:17:17 ahaas: I am looking for a facility (e.g., emacs mode) for searching and finding appropriate examples 18:17:33 Drakeson: M-. does that. 18:17:34 Drakeson: igrep-find? 18:17:50 Drakeson: and M-, pops you back up the M-. "stack" 18:19:29 well, not exactly. 18:19:43 the use case: I want to see an example of the usage of a function or variable, or maybe a concept 18:19:51 Drakeson: Do you have the hyperspec setup within emacs? 18:21:02 yes. There are examples in hyperspec, but assume, you want to find examples that have `format' and `~R' in the format string. 18:21:09 configuring hyperspec access inside emacs is critical. :) 18:21:30 Drakeson: there is nothing made already for that. 18:21:43 I can't imagine anything better than igrep-find over the packages that you have installed. 18:21:55 I remember something a year or more ago about a sourcode search engine, but IDK what became of it. 18:21:59 possibly it was a google project? 18:22:10 ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-23-72.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:22:18 s/sourcode/source\ code 18:22:25 codesearch.google.com searches code. 18:22:34 there you go. 18:22:44 I think the caveat is that mileage varies. :) 18:23:01 http://www.google.com/codesearch?hl=en&lr=&q=%5C%28format.*%7ER 18:24:35 that's a pretty neat utility, actually. 18:24:51 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:25:13 Xach: thanks. That does it for now :) 18:25:36 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:26:34 something you could write back snippets to the `server' would be great too. Maybe a section of Cliki for snippets, and then a tool to invoke a regex search there and show the results in emacs. 18:29:04 is there a paste web service with voting for pastes? 18:29:17 ,paste 18:30:25 hmm I've seen votes on quote pasting sites but not generally on pastebins... it might exist though 18:30:59 many pastebins support annotations/followups 18:32:44 lisppaste: url? 18:32:44 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 18:38:40 Drakeson: i think it's possible that desire is just something you outgrow. 18:40:50 At least for standard functionality. 18:41:52 well, I think an "examples" service could help anyone, not just newbs. 18:42:24 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-59-31.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:04 -!- younder [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:45:20 younder [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:45:59 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:47:02 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-82-32.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 18:47:28 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:48:46 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:49:01 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 18:57:29 on the Lisp machine I use 'who calls' 18:58:35 in zmacs: List Callers enter the function name and it will list where it is used 18:58:45 click on something, you're ther 18:58:45 e 18:59:24 Drakeson, a snippet server would make a lot of sense IMHO 18:59:28 what does a lisp machine cost nowadays? 19:00:00 serichsen: $2500 - $3500 plus port. 19:00:32 depends, for a useful MacIvory you would pay around 2000-3000 euro including the Mac 19:01:00 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:01:06 does it come with a space cadet keyboard? 19:01:09 the emulator for the DEC Alpha is $5000 and free for US govenrment users 19:01:51 the keyboard, well there are probably still some of these keyboards but only few adapters for the Mac 19:01:51 -!- rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:02:03 so you probably would get a Mac keyboard 19:02:17 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:31 which is a bit of a pain, though 19:03:00 adapters can be built, I read something about that somewhere 19:03:02 doesn't SLIME has a cross reference facility to find function usage 19:03:24 serichsen, not this adapter, the ones you were reading about are different 19:03:33 oh, yeah 19:03:40 the MacIvory needs an adapter from Symbolics to ADB 19:03:41 C-c C-w c 19:03:53 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-22-217.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:04:15 so Drakeson should use slime to find example uses of specific functions, using the cross reference feature 19:04:20 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:04:32 given that it is loaded in the image 19:05:08 serichsen, you could invest 3000 Euro in five MIPS 19:05:16 ;-) 19:05:40 your friends will think you are insane, or probably a real geek 19:05:46 heh 19:05:48 maybe both 19:05:56 I think that I have both these marks already 19:07:14 joswig, serichsen: thanks, C-c C-w c is useful 19:07:32 joswig: by the way, you're in Hamburg, right? 19:08:26 yes 19:08:30 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-27-224.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:08:34 and you? 19:09:11 currently Bonn, but I want to move to Hamburg 19:09:20 work? 19:09:25 for work? 19:09:35 mrSpec_ [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 19:09:44 -!- mrSpec_ [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [Client Quit] 19:09:48 for living with my wife, whom I will marry in two weeks ;) 19:09:59 in hamburg? 19:10:03 yes 19:10:10 she is from here? 19:10:18 no, but she works there 19:10:59 okay, she works there ;-) 19:11:11 eh 19:11:35 you can then visit the Hamburg Lisp Stammtisch 19:11:49 yeah, I'd like to do that 19:11:59 I wasn't sure if it's still active 19:12:03 which we need to keep going again - people are kind of lazy in summer 19:12:15 if people come it will take place 19:12:33 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:40 don't forget also the ECLM organized by Arthur and Edi 19:12:48 I'd also like to find a Lisp job in Hamburg, but that might be optimistic... 19:12:55 yeah, I noted that 19:12:56 oh 19:12:59 I have to register 19:13:00 how old are you? 19:13:09 if I may ask 19:13:10 32 19:13:54 the boss from freiheit.com is a Lisp guy 19:14:02 yeah, I read about that 19:14:06 they hire some Lisp and Haskell people 19:14:14 they do Java work 19:14:23 but Haskell, Erlang and Lisp, too 19:14:26 if possible 19:14:37 I tried that about half a year ago 19:14:49 i'd move to Hamburg if i didn't have to speak german 19:14:52 but it seems that my CV was not very convincing to their HR 19:15:13 maybe talking to him in person helps, who nows 19:15:17 knows 19:15:30 zophy-ng, ha, okay 19:15:35 though 19:15:40 where are you from? 19:16:46 german is easy. There are little children here who speak it fluently. :) 19:17:01 haha 19:17:22 I often fear that a HR department would not recognize a true hacker 19:18:04 I tend not to trust them, last where I worked I kept me involved into the select process 19:18:23 they asked a candidate: do you know J2EE? 19:18:27 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 19:18:28 he answered: yes 19:18:43 next question from the HR department: do you know Java? 19:18:44 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:18:50 <[df]> haha 19:19:03 ugh 19:19:31 I tried to explain her that both were kind of related 19:20:00 I had problems not to laugh during the interview, though 19:20:34 <[df]> my place of work once advertised for a job requiring 10 years of j2ee experience 19:20:46 heh 19:20:50 they wanted the inventors 19:21:02 <[df]> they should have offered more money then :p 19:21:16 that's a common mistake 19:21:24 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-26-221.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:21:30 common? 19:21:51 yeah, they often offer not enough money ;-) 19:21:55 ahh 19:22:19 I was thinking about 10yr of j2ee experience :D 19:22:44 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 19:23:09 -!- pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 19:23:19 that too! 19:23:51 I dont like this job advers, as I'm student 19:25:02 _stern_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E464A8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:09 that's another common problem for HR, they can't recognize good students 19:25:10 <[df]> ime, people asking for 'X years experience' tend to be more flexible than they sound 19:25:32 <[df]> which is good, because of course commercial experience doesn't really mean much 19:25:49 I though that asking for X years exp is like "we dont want students" 19:26:31 I find experience important, but I would take a very good student and train him in a very good team - that would be better than taking some 'experienced' guy 19:26:32 <[df]> well, I'd apply for a job like that anyway 19:26:40 <[df]> I had to, originally, because I had no experience 19:26:59 everybody has at some point no experience 19:27:13 <[df]> of course 19:27:14 yeah ;) 19:27:15 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A29BA.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:27:18 you should have seen me in front of the first Lisp Machine 19:27:31 <[df]> that's why it's very discouraging to see hundreds of job adverts all requiring some experience 19:27:57 I could barely work for ten minutes without locking up the User Interface, I guess I was not a great help in that project 19:28:18 [df]: contributing to open source is a way to bootstrap yourself some experience 19:28:32 mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068128186.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:37 that's true, a good advice 19:28:39 <[df]> slava: yeah, I've realised this recently 19:28:40 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 19:28:44 Or contributing to closed source, eh ;) 19:29:37 in the former east block they educated themselves by disassembling west software 19:30:11 they knew lots of details nobody knew here 19:30:12 So many ppl on #lisp, maybe some of you work in company wanting students? :D 19:30:26 I have a loop that I would like to return from when a condition is signaled (the actual condition is generated by sb-ext:with-timeout). What should I be looking at? 19:30:27 getting exp in Lisp company would be great ;) 19:30:32 joswig: when and where is the HH stammtisch? 19:30:56 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:30:56 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:31:23 serichsen, there is a mailing list for it, where it is announced 19:31:39 joswig, why did the UI lock up? I'm curious. 19:31:42 the usual day is the last wednesday in a month 19:31:47 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-115.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:53 19:00 19:31:59 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 19:32:19 http://lisp-hh.de/wiki/Home 19:32:40 mcspiff: you could wrap the loop in HANDLER-CASE 19:33:11 tlc: imagine using SBCL and SLIME as your OS, there is nothing else 19:33:22 tic 19:34:05 tic: now imagine that the window system and the scheduler and the network and the keyboard software are also written in SBCL 19:34:29 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 19:34:34 now some function blocks the scheduler, somehow 19:35:20 well, the thing was running something like 50 processes with a process for the mouse blinker 19:35:28 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 19:35:34 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 19:35:36 a process for the mouse tracker 19:35:38 and so on 19:35:48 joswig: thanks, but there is only "trifft sich unregelmäßig", and the last thing that came over the mailing list was the ECLM announcement 19:36:12 it was 'regelmaessig', only now in the summer is some 'ferien' 19:36:21 joswig, I see. Yeah, that could happen. Which means the OS was crappy. :-) 19:36:34 define 'crappy' 19:36:48 redefine IF and your session is gone 19:36:50 reboot 19:37:03 joswig, being able to lock up thanks to "userspace" processes. Unless you messed up the OS itself, htat is. 19:37:31 <[df]> I guess the 'userspace' distinction didn't exist 19:37:33 (you probably can't make that distinction in a Lisp OS, but there should still be some separation) 19:37:35 yes, that's the philosophy - everything is open, (almost) no protection 19:37:45 tic: Lispers trust themselves. That's why we have double colons. 19:38:07 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:38:10 Another way to think about it is that lisp systems normally don't employ virtual machines. 19:38:12 pkhuong`, twice the excrement! yeah, that's maybe separation enough. 19:38:13 but it had commands to unlock the window system, halt some process, etc. 19:38:19 joswig, mhm 19:38:29 so many times, you can get out of trouble 19:38:30 How would you implement a multi-user Common Lisp machine? 19:38:32 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.219.75] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 19:38:45 but you would have to know the commands, and that's the main problem 19:38:52 because there are so many of them 19:39:03 keithr pasted "sbcl w/slime debugger output" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83797 19:39:31 there is a small brochure with often used commands - that's a good help 19:39:55 I don't understand why I am getting a floating-point-overflow..can someone tell from the debuuger output? 19:40:30 there are so many little annoying things, if you telnet into a Lisp Machine the usual control commands don't help, you have to know that the prefix is c-_ 19:41:32 heh, not "control uparrow Q"? 19:41:44 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E43CD2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:42:18 gigamonkey: thanks. Not quite sure I understand the syntax for it tho... 19:42:28 no, and if you ftp into the machine, no client from other machines knows that > is the directory separator 19:42:35 lot's of that stuff... 19:42:40 keithr: no. X could be anything. 19:44:51 tic: the strange thing with the MacIvory is that it survives booting the Mac 19:45:09 pkhuong`: thanks 19:45:20 joswig, what does that mean? 19:45:24 you can reboot the Mac and the Macivory board will keep its state and you can reconnect 19:45:31 Oh, nifty. 19:46:01 the experience was that the MacIvory usually survived several reboots of the buggy Mac OS 19:46:10 it stayed up for weeks 19:46:22 even though you can change everything 19:46:52 Nifty. Storage on the internal MI RAM, or is the disk on the Mac usable too? 19:47:29 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit ["leaving"] 19:49:06 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:52:15 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 19:58:15 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 19:59:26 the Macivory has its own RAM, but uses the Mac disk 20:00:34 Know anything about how objects are moved back and forth between RAM and persistent storage? 20:01:19 it talks over the NuBUS to an application on the Mac side 20:01:19 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:01:44 for some tasks it talks directly to other NuBUS devices 20:01:54 like Ethernet, IIRC 20:02:16 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 20:02:30 there is also a NuBUS graphics card which it can drive natively 20:09:46 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:11:59 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:12:10 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:05 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:17 joswig, right, but programatically, how is it decided what objects goes where when? :-) (I find this interesting) 20:15:58 it is your usual virtual memory 20:16:30 some RAM and a large virtual memory 20:16:42 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [] 20:16:54 then it has access to the Mac file system, file systems on the network and its own file system 20:17:04 alright, so it's up to the VM. I thought it maybe could've been using some more clever way of storing data 20:17:12 Aha, it has a file system. Cheating! :-) 20:17:42 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:18:02 its own file system is actually two: on FEP file system (like your boot loader had a file system) and some files in the FEP store data for the LispM file system 20:18:12 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:18:15 doesn't it use something resembling SunRPC to talk to the host? 20:18:16 it can also use NFS and run without local file system 20:18:56 I know beach argued for not having a file system. 20:19:05 then you can also put files for an object database into its FEP file system 20:19:39 the object database is not used by system applications, they wanted to do that, but it did not happen - customers were using it though 20:20:20 well, and you can save the usual snap shot of the running system as an image to disk and boot that later 20:20:40 hefner: it uses RPC for NFS and some other purposes 20:20:47 IIRC 20:21:46 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-27-224.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:22:13 the macintosh application talks to the macivory also in RPC, IIRC 20:23:15 someone should take some modern hardware and build a new lisp machine 20:23:30 serichsen: It's just a small matter of programming. Hop to! 20:23:59 heh, yeah 20:24:14 *lnostdal* dereferences a NULL pointer 20:24:20 serichsen, SBCL-OS, Movitz. Do you /really/ need custom hardware, or do you just want little underlying software? 20:24:29 i wonder if it would be possible to get venture capital for this 20:24:39 no 20:24:52 from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation 20:25:00 Heh. 20:25:01 It might be... from an angel. Otherwise, it'd be rather unlikely. 20:25:14 What'd be the business/use/ case? 20:25:23 tic: I have the impression that getting away from the intel architecture might have some technical benefits 20:25:26 Indeed. What's your value proposition? 20:25:37 serichsen, such as? 20:25:43 *tic* smells premature optimization. 20:26:18 GNU Emacs OS 20:26:33 :) 20:26:36 Gnumos 20:27:28 An emacs OS is childishly easy. Grab a linux kernel and symlink init to emacs. 20:27:54 serichsen: this is actually very easy. It has been done several times. Just take some standard electronic component, and write the 'microcode' that is needed to implement the lisp machine. Something like an Intel Xeon would do. 20:27:57 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:28:14 serichsen: just make sure no ix86 code can be run on that VM! :-) 20:28:16 pjb, user-programmable, even? 20:28:19 pjb: I was thinking aobut ARM 20:28:23 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 20:28:33 francogrex [n=franco@48.49-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:28:39 s/aobu/abou/ 20:28:40 serichsen: well, take the fastest processor. 20:28:49 one multicore arm then. 20:29:06 Indeed, even a multicore, so you can implement "pipelining" :-) 20:29:10 a Nintendo DS. 20:29:13 Hi, does anyone have a cool recent mind-blowing project/app written in common lisp that he's like to share? 20:29:25 mebbe one of those S40c18s 20:29:28 define mindblowing. 20:29:43 tic, just something cool and new 20:29:44 hey, what about those cell processors 20:29:44 francogrex: Everything in CL is mindblowing :) 20:29:57 serichsen, just a bunch of floating-point units. 20:30:03 Once upon a time I worked on a IBM S35 clone implemented on intel 8085 chips :-) 20:30:05 yeah I know, but like a project 20:30:06 (and a PPC main controller CPU.) 20:30:13 pjb, hah 20:30:28 francogrex: blast tactics, the fun game ? 20:31:30 ignas [n=ignas@78.63.172.30] has joined #lisp 20:31:31 And I had a teacher that considered the Mac ROM as microcode, since it implemented A-traps. 20:31:39 s/that/who 20:34:35 francogrex, there was a thread on reddit yesterday; http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/91x7g/reddit_lispers_maybe_you_would_like_to_introduce/ 20:36:48 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 20:38:42 well a lot on cliki 20:39:12 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-155-195-92.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:40:49 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-5-211.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:30 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:41:54 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 20:41:58 ..if you're bored, francogrex, you could help me figure out how to propagate user-input using dataflow so that it does not flow back to the viewport (browser tab/window) that sent it potentially creating a race with the user making yet another edit to that same user-input widget .. (tagging the data?) .. http://sw.nostdal.org/text-input source; http://gitorious.org/symbolicweb/symbolicweb/blobs/raw/master/examples/ex-text-inpu 20:41:58 t.lisp .. i'm stuck at this .. i even drew some ascii art to try to understand my own code :} 20:43:36 the trick is that it still has got to send it to the same user or session if he has multiple windows/tab viewing the same stuff (widgets) 20:43:44 CodeMagus [n=yvon@dualxdrive.com] has joined #lisp 20:43:54 ..it just has to dodge the exact tab/window (viewport) it came from :P 20:45:05 lnostdal, it's true I'm bored. But i'm not THAT bored! 20:45:14 dang 20:45:27 kidding, 20:45:43 but honestly it's beyond my ability to help me with that 20:47:30 i'm have look on the web to find if i should start with scheme or lisp but can't make my mind, someone could tell me the advantages of starting with lisp ? 20:47:59 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:48:13 CodeMagus: Common Lisp has a bigger standardized core, so you lose less when you switch from one implementation to another. 20:48:43 CodeMagus: otherwise there are libraries both for CL and for Scheme, so you can write code that's portable across implementations of each language. 20:49:05 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 20:49:18 CodeMagus: CL is probably more "industrial" or "practical" while scheme is more "pedagogical" or "theorical". 20:49:24 if you want to develop in scheme, it usually pays off to target an implementation than just one of the somewhat minimalistic standards. 20:49:49 CodeMagus: Roll a dice. 20:49:54 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-106-22.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:49:58 CodeMagus: so to develop an application I'd choose CL, and to write a CS paper, I'd choose Scheme. 20:50:03 schme: lol it's funny 20:50:17 CodeMagus: 1-6 go with CL, if the die implodes for no reason use scheme ;) 20:50:30 :-) 20:50:42 And if it implodes for some reason, fetch another die. 20:50:51 pjb, find R6RS more theoretical still? 20:50:52 heh 20:50:53 pjb: if it's to play with my mind (no real utilities for now) you think sheme is better ? 20:51:18 CodeMagus: some good books use scheme for the exercises. 20:51:22 minion: tell CodeMagus about sicp 20:51:23 CodeMagus: look at sicp: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available gratis from (HTML), (texinfo) and (XHTML, PDF). Accompanying video lectures are available gratis at 20:51:36 tic: I havent' had a look at R6RS yet. 20:51:57 hehe a bots ;-) 20:52:30 -!- claar [n=claar@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:53:08 claar [n=claar@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 20:53:08 CodeMagus: call/cc in scheme is a good for mindplaying 20:53:18 Hello 20:53:27 Is there any bot here? 20:53:27 claar is a bot. For more info: /msg claar help 20:53:33 :-) 20:53:42 did you fix the, uh, circular list "bug"? 20:53:57 Not yet. I had a lazy day today. 20:54:22 Weather is not good in Paris, it's depressing. 20:54:36 Aren't bad weather days excellent for productivity? 20:54:59 Depends on how they affect your mood 20:55:06 Yeah, just realized that. :/ 20:55:15 Depends. I'm used to South Spain weather... 20:55:41 Don't move South, later you can't go back into the cold. 20:55:54 Don't learn Lisp, later you can't go back into lesser languages. 20:56:20 --> PHP, North Pole :-/ 20:56:27 I find Swedish summer with a bit of rain now and then a great combo. 20:57:04 too much heat and I have trouble thinking, plus lack motivation (other things to do outside instead of hacking) 20:57:12 Well, if you're over the Artic Circle, you get long days. Probably nice. 20:57:35 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@92.99.40.38] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:00:09 Mwaha, Python is a Lisp-0.5. You can't do def foo(x): abs = abs(-1); return abs 21:00:53 pjb: do you own claar? 21:00:57 Yep. 21:01:03 what does it do? 21:01:09 claar: help 21:01:10 draw -> draw the 21:01:13 referenced before assignment. heh. 21:01:14 draw ascii-conses! 21:01:26 ah (: 21:01:37 that's sweet 21:01:40 tcr, Slime-for-Python, or just experimenting? 21:01:46 draw (show "antifush" (what you (can do))) 21:01:50 claar: draw (show "antifush" (what you (can do))) 21:01:50 http://claar.informatimago.com:8006/1 21:02:04 nice 21:02:08 s/sh/chs 21:02:11 ok rcl seems like a good thing to experiment with 21:02:29 neat ascii art (: 21:02:51 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-27-224.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:03:03 antifuchs: but for now, it just extends conses, not vectors/structures, and it doesn't do references (be it circular or just sharing). 21:03:17 pjb, that's cool 21:03:18 claar: draw (#1=(a b c) #1#) 21:03:19 http://claar.informatimago.com:8006/2 21:03:25 duplicates the sublist... 21:03:42 tic: Just toying 21:04:07 There's already a bug list and feature requests... 21:05:01 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@92.193.105.46] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:05:36 pjb: If you don't want someone to shoot your off with a circular list, you could just use alexandria:circular-tree-p for the moment, and barf if the input is circular. 21:05:42 tcr: for an idea of how I'd approach your feature request. 21:06:08 tcr: I will implement it soon. 21:07:00 pjb: are using the sdraw code? 21:07:12 No, I'm using my own cons-to-ascii package. 21:07:22 tcr, why do you think Python is broken there, by the way? looking in locals for abs, doesn't find it, so it creates a new binding for abs, so the call to abs(-1) is used with the local binding instead of looking it up globally? 21:07:22 pkhuong`: Cool, I'll look at it! I also want to get acquainted with your SSE work and use it in string=. 21:07:43 I may add an option to draw bitmaps too. 21:08:20 svg :) 21:08:36 but this ascii is awesome already 21:09:58 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 21:10:06 tcr: SSEed string= would likely be enough to make string-case redundant. 21:10:18 tic: It's an artifact of the implementation. 21:11:32 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:11:52 pkhuong`: Do you know if there's any prior work on vectorizing Finite State Automata? I.e. to use SSE intrinsics in matching by regexps? 21:12:09 benny` [n=benny@i577A2B74.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:12:56 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:09 <_3b> tcr: have you seen the stuff about doing that sort of thing on connection machines? (probably a bit more parallel than you are looking for though :) 21:13:10 -!- benny` is now known as benny 21:13:51 I'm not even sure if it'd buy you anything. I read somewhere that a SSE-enabled strlen() was actually slightly slower on short strings. (Of course it totally rocked for larger strings.) 21:14:13 I don't what the reason is, perhaps the path to the sse registers is longer? Does that even matter? 21:14:25 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:35 <_3b> probably just that SSE is slower at the edges due to alignment and such, and short strings are only edges :) 21:15:25 ah alignment 21:17:58 tcr: if I write that C book, I'll let you know. ;-) 21:21:13 gigamonkey: write a C book explaining how to implement Common Lisp in C :-) 21:23:19 pjb: well, actually one of the things I've thought about including in a book about the appropriate use of C in the modern world is C as a target language for compilers and as a language for implementing the low-level bits of language runtimes. 21:23:28 pkhuong`: the eval-when (:execute) seems bogus; I think it misses :load-toplevel 21:23:33 I'm not sure I'd cover all of implementing CL though. ;-) 21:23:33 an ad-hoc, informally-specified, bug ridden and slow one? (: 21:23:47 maybe just half? ((-: 21:24:06 Yes, there's no need to implement the whole library, just the special operators. 21:24:33 pjb: well, and all the built-in-data types and the functions that deal with them. 21:24:43 That gets you into a fair bit of the library. 21:24:45 As long as it contains (format t "~@:r" ...), you'll be able to use it productively 21:25:03 writing lisp in C? hmm. is it true that almost all lisp implementations today are derived from a sort of seed that was written on a lisp machine? 21:25:21 No, pretty much none 21:25:26 There's probably some bytes coming even from LISP 1.5! :-) 21:25:35 except for the standard itself, which was heavily influenced by the dialect used on the Lisp machine 21:25:36 <[df]> aren't the cool kids using llvm as a target for compilers these days? 21:25:37 francogrecompletelyy that's probably completely false. 21:25:46 [df]: yeah, probably. 21:25:55 What is LLVM written in? 21:26:02 masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has joined #lisp 21:26:02 c++ 21:26:08 <[df]> aha :D 21:26:08 so lisp on my win32 is written in what? 21:26:16 assemebly? 21:26:26 In Lisp 21:26:26 francogrex: probably C and Lisp itself. 21:27:09 Are there any Lisp implementations that do the Squeak or Scheme-48 thing of bootstrapping with a subset language? 21:27:36 Where "Lisp" there means CL. 21:27:38 No, but ECL, and Clisp use a superset of C ;) 21:27:39 so it's LISP going to a compiler written in lisp? that seems circular 21:27:49 francogrex: what do you think gcc is written in? 21:27:54 francogrex: It's turtles all the way down 21:28:01 gigamonkey: there's a CL core implemented in scheme. 21:28:03 gigamonkey, Scheme48 is not much different from SBCL in the general idea of its bootstrapping. 21:28:04 tcr: until you get to conses 21:28:28 francogrex, The Metacircular Evaluator: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/sicp/book/node76.html 21:28:34 Is it bad to pass a function the same keyword parameter twice? 21:28:37 gcc in c yes 21:28:45 Adlai: No the first one is used 21:28:46 francogrex: so why isn't that circular? 21:28:52 it is 21:28:55 <[df]> I don't quite understand the concept of building lisp with lisp, because lisp implementations build binaries that include their entire runtime 21:29:20 df, I think the link to scip explains a lot 21:29:23 [df], is that a bad thing? 21:29:46 don't fret? 21:29:48 tcr: so if a macro that I'm writing will in some situations expand to code that calls a function with the same keyword parameter twice, I shouldn't bother cleaning that up? 21:29:56 or rather, don't absolutely need to. 21:30:03 <[df]> tic: well my point is, if you build version X or sbcl with an earlier version Y, don't you end up with all the code for both versions? 21:30:04 [df]: In case of SBCL, the runtime is actually written in C. 21:30:17 <[df]> ah right 21:30:32 [df]: http://kvardek-du.kerno.org/2009/06/illustrating-sbcls-build-process.html also 21:30:48 [df]: if I write an assembler in CL, the code generated by that assembler won't be infected with the host. 21:30:52 <[df]> cool, reading matter 21:31:13 [df], in short, SBCL separates the host Lisp from output SBCL. 21:31:16 <[df]> pkhuong`: yeah but a CL implementation is quite a lot more than an assembler 21:31:32 <[df]> anyway, I'll read up 21:31:33 Adlai: Just remember that the first pair will be used 21:31:49 [df]: it's however fundamentally still the same situation. 21:32:04 thank you tcr. 21:32:46 Adlai: It's quite handy that first pair is used, so you can do (apply f :key overriding-other-value-in-args args) 21:33:19 tcr: that's very similar to what I'm doing 21:33:45 when i was young in lisp, i didn't realize that APPLY took a spreadable argument list designator 21:33:50 pkhuong`: seen the bit about the eval-when? 21:33:53 tcr: showing that the scheme used in the synchronisation thingy doesn't introduce dead locks is a nice exercise (: 21:34:10 so i would take great pains to construct lists to pass to it, e.g. (apply f (cons new-arg previous-args)) instead of just (apply f new-arg previous-args) 21:34:22 <[df]> sc 21:34:28 Xach, when I was young apply was called lexpr-funcall 21:34:50 joswig: and cars were called automobiles? 21:34:58 yeah, what is truly missing is an eval-when around the constructor code. But since the only code that refers to the global will be inlined or macroexpanded in the user's code, I don't think it matters. 21:35:00 joswig: thank god we got rid of all the awkward names! 21:35:01 carriages 21:35:06 :) 21:35:37 Xach, Arc did that 21:36:06 nd sm wvls 21:36:19 hmm, kind of silent around Arc lately 21:36:39 joswig: Arc 3 came out a while back, there was a buzz of activity around then 21:36:43 *Adlai* briefly dabbled in Arc 21:37:27 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:27 probably everyone was rewriting their code so it runs again? 21:37:28 Here's a (toy) language design problem: design a language with exactly 26 special names, 'a' through 'z' and make it as perspicuous as possible. 21:37:45 pkhuong`: Huh? **default-lock-table** will never be bound if compiled-file'd 21:37:55 joswig: that was a large part of it, but they're also expanding the language. 21:38:18 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:38:23 tcr: argh. But load-toplevel executes too early. 21:38:32 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:54 gigamonkey: 7 for the lisp special operators, a few more for streams, a few more multiprocessing 21:39:02 pkhuong: Not if you make it the last tlf 21:39:03 a=car, d =cdr, e=last, i=if, p=plus,m=minus, l=lambda, ... 21:39:36 joswig: plus and minus wouldn't be special names, they'd be from the basic arithmetic module. 21:39:48 (i (a l) (p 3 (d l)) (m (a (d l)))) 21:40:06 tcr: it's already after the definitions it depends on. 21:40:07 there is a m a d in there 21:40:13 hmm 21:40:39 pkhuong`: ah well you'll figure it out ;) Make sure to rsync. I'm off. 21:40:40 ok a question. anyone use the rcl asdf? 21:41:12 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:41:15 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:41:42 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:01 *Xach* is not familiar with rcl asdf, but recently came across bsdf 21:42:20 bsdf? 21:43:03 bondage system defintion facility? 21:43:25 better sdf? 21:43:31 basically shitty df? 21:43:54 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:43:59 brilliant sdf? 21:44:13 bungled sdf. 21:44:38 buggy 21:44:43 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:44:44 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 21:44:51 broken 21:44:59 also good 21:45:33 Adlai: nah, any built in functions (i.e. those dealing with built-in datatypes) have "special" names. 21:45:37 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-27-224.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:45:57 gigamonkey: That's too many with 26 special names 21:46:00 (: 21:46:25 gigamonkey: build a scheme on top of brainfuck? 21:46:30 schme: that's why it's a challenge. 21:46:34 Saw a BF written in BF. 21:46:56 (I don't know if they cheated, though) 21:47:17 gigamonkey: I'm thinking replacing standard forth words. a == : , z == ; b == ! c == @ ... but 26 becomes so many :) 21:47:50 BF has 8 core functions... Lisp has 7. We win. 21:48:11 seven? 21:48:16 I thought there were twenty some special operators. 21:48:17 http://tentclube.blogspot.com/2009/07/bsdf-brent-system-defpackage-facility.html 21:48:56 Adlai: I think the SKI folks have you beat there. 21:49:22 Two really, as I understand it, since 'I' can be made out of 'S' and 'K'. 21:49:31 One pseudocombinator, in fact. 21:49:32 Ralith: that's Common Lisp, not John McCarthy 1959 Lisp. 21:49:47 :P 21:49:59 Nonetheless, you can implement every thing with only Church's lambda. 21:50:10 thus Haskell is the answer. 21:50:21 -!- jao [n=jao@52.Red-83-43-32.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Success] 21:50:29 (I have a colleague who is a Haskell apprentice. We have interesting discussions) 21:50:37 If Haskell is the answer, how do we avoid the question? 21:50:44 :) 21:52:23 Of all the folks I interviewed for Coders at Work, the one who left me most feeling like he might really be on to something was Simon Peyton Jones. 21:52:55 :) misread it as "on something" 21:53:37 gigamonkey, STM? Concurrency? Or just in general? 21:54:04 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-155-176.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:54:41 joswig: I finaly got around to watching your lispm videos, great stuff :) 21:54:52 -!- francogrex [n=franco@48.49-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:55:23 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@91.89.172.94] has quit [] 21:55:33 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 21:55:49 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-82-32.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:56:20 Adlai: the most crazy BF implementation I had seen was BF on top of TECO on top of Elisp (which of course is written in C, doh!) 21:56:26 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C37C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:56:28 Adlai: and it ran DeCSS 21:56:30 tic: In general. I guess the approach of starting with some "useless" (as he'd say) like a pure functional language and then finding clever ways to make it useful without destroying the good properties, might really be the way to go. 21:57:01 Is there any portable way to put a timeout on a drakma:http-request? 21:57:13 p_l: have you seen the DeCSS primes? 21:57:39 gigamonkey, *nod* how's the book coming along, by the way? 21:57:50 Guy Steele sort of agrees: he said, "About once a month I get the feeling that I wish that in designing Fortress we had started with Haskell and tried to move it toward FORTRAN and Java rather than starting with FORTRAN and Java and trying to move it toward Haskell." 21:57:58 Adlai: sort of, deadlines in bordeaux-threads. 21:58:16 tic: it's basically done. Just a couple more chapters to come back from copy edit and then however long it takes for Apress to actually print the darn thing and start selling it. 21:58:23 Adlai: nope 21:58:35 http://www.codersatwork.com/endgame.html 21:59:15 gigamonkey, nice! 21:59:24 *tic* shall soon be reading a new book. 21:59:30 gigamonkey, how does it compare to Beautiful Code? 21:59:37 tic: better in every way! 21:59:41 yay! 21:59:43 pkhuong`: do you mean starting a new thread for the request, and killing the thread after a certain amount of time? 22:00:06 The main differences are: it's Q&A interviews, rather than pieces written by the subjects. 22:00:29 And it doesn't have several hundred pages in the middle that are way less interesting than the beginning and the ending. >:-) 22:00:38 (Mine is uniformly boring and/or interesting.) 22:00:39 gigamonkey, alright. which means we'd get the Approved Gigamonkey Flavoring(tm) 22:00:59 Nice! Will be fun to read. 22:01:18 I thought bx-thread exposed deadlines. Not that randomly interrupting a thread is such a good idea. 22:01:27 *gigamonkey* is also in the process of trying to find famous people to take a sneak peek at the book and blurb it. 22:01:57 <[df]> I'm famous! 22:03:11 How famous? And to whom? ;-) 22:04:03 <[df]> er... 22:04:17 <[df]> the answer to the first question depends on the answer to the second 22:04:20 I guess if I have to ask, that says something bad about me or your fame. 22:04:25 ;-) 22:04:59 <[df]> it's probably not about you :D 22:05:44 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250002.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:06:19 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:06:31 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-185-233.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:06:41 Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 22:09:38 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:10:24 Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 22:10:47 p_l, thanks 22:10:47 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Success] 22:10:56 c|mell [n=cmell@x250013.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 22:12:58 -!- rolly1975 [n=rory@5ac03a96.bb.sky.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:16:12 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:16:31 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 22:16:54 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:17:23 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:19:54 -!- densem-jr is now known as densem[afk] 22:20:37 ahaas_ [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:41 Lisp beginner looking for an IDE: 'The only other alternative was something called Emacs.' 22:20:48 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 22:20:50 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:24 X beginner looking for a Y: 'The only other alternative was something called Emacs.' for most values of X and Y. 22:21:49 then quotes a guy called 'Peter Seibel': 22:21:52 "You should use C-v and C-p to navigate through a text file. It's easier this way because not all terminals have arrow keys." 22:22:19 I never said that! (Did I?) 22:22:21 ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:33 like hjkl in vi 22:22:33 joswig: arrow key? What's that? Mouse! 22:22:41 he said that he was 'paraphrasing' 22:22:42 <[df]> I'd have thought you said C-n and C-p 22:23:08 C-n and C-p I could vaguely imagine recommending. But I still doubt it. 22:23:31 mouse? a pin on the IBM laptop keyboard 22:24:23 haha, he learned Common Lisp in a few hours, but 22:24:36 'followed by about two and a half weeks of trying to figure out how the hell to work the editor.' 22:25:30 he even has a nice graphics: 22:25:33 http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_aNhkzkd_Yww/SlgM7rY3z7I/AAAAAAAAAAc/R53Cna7K2Ig/s1600-h/graph%283%29.jpg 22:25:50 *[df]* just googled for 'The only other alternative was something called Emacs' and found a blog article that suggests: (global-set-key (kbd "C-f") 'isearch-forward) 22:26:05 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 22:26:10 http://defpackage.blogspot.com/2009/07/first-impressions.html 22:26:19 joswig: what's the link to the post ... you read my mind. 22:26:27 all these editors are so dvorak unfriendly 22:26:34 <[df]> joswig: ah, same blog, different entry 22:27:08 Ah, he was quoting the Emacs tutorial, not me. 22:27:09 your brain waves reached already 22:27:13 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 22:27:20 gigamonkey: have you looked at ABLE? 22:27:34 it seems like a nice starting point for a batteries-included get-started-fast package 22:27:35 gigamonkey, but you sent him there 22:27:37 ;-) 22:27:40 <[df]> I'm kinda disturbed by the way people equate programming languages with editor support for that language 22:27:51 If he had just accepted that Emacs is different, he wouldn't have spent so much time screwing around. 22:27:53 minion: memo for tcr: first hopefully complete (and unchecked) implementation still at . 22:27:53 Remembered. I'll tell tcr when he/she/it next speaks. 22:28:05 http://phil.nullable.eu/index.html 22:28:05 sykopomp: never heard of it. 22:28:29 gigamonkey: it's small and requires basically no setup. It's like IDLE, but for lisp. 22:28:38 actually he could have used CCL, since he is on a Mac 22:28:51 CCL might even be almost usable with the next release 22:28:58 <[df]> it's not like you *have* to use emacs 22:29:00 could use some improvement, imo, as far as interface goes (debugger support would be a plus, too) 22:29:02 or CVS head 22:29:03 but it's not too shabby. 22:29:10 Hmmm. Where did that come from? 22:30:20 I've found CCL generally useful for stuff that doesn't depend on heavy use of contextl 22:30:27 the cusp plugin for Eclispse seems to be dead 22:31:57 bgs101 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:32:07 getting people to use emacs is an uphill battle. 22:32:09 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:32:13 it's probably better to have a simple editor 22:32:19 -!- bgs101 is now known as bgs100 22:32:41 <[df]> to start with, yes 22:32:58 though there is a strange attraction from SLIME, ORG-MODE and other Emacs packages 22:32:58 of course 22:33:05 I use emacs, after all :P 22:33:16 -!- mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068128186.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:33:28 but emacs is going to confuse the newbies and piss off the non-emacsers. 22:33:29 <[df]> it's just weird that this guy felt that to experiment with a language he had to set up an appropriate 'environment' 22:33:58 <[df]> environments are good, but you should be aware that underneath it all you can make do with a text editor and some command line stuff 22:34:01 I disagree. Setting up a proper environment for lisp is pretty critical, imo. 22:34:20 when I started Lisp all I had was a REPL, and a small s-expression editor 22:34:21 <[df]> just to learn it? 22:34:23 it's much harder to play with lisp when you're stuck writing shell-script-style stuff. 22:34:43 <[df]> there's not a lot of shell-script-style stuff to write though 22:34:46 the real experience of coding lisp is when you have this interactive environment to play with. 22:34:53 <[df]> just run your code, and/or paste it into your repl 22:35:14 I'm talking about people that code lisp by opening a text file and putting #!/usr/bin/clisp 22:35:19 then clisp foo.lisp 22:35:21 it's -horrible- 22:35:32 <[df]> well you don't need to do both of those 22:35:33 I wouldn't blame anyone for hating lisp if they were stuck in that kind of environment. 22:35:50 [df]: you get my point, right? 22:35:52 the interactive nature of lisp is one of its major strengths 22:36:00 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:36:03 it should be emphasized to new users 22:36:07 not hidden ;p 22:36:08 definitely 22:36:13 <[df]> sykopomp: but you could have, say, a simple text editor in one window and a repl in another 22:36:15 sykopomp: I think it is worse 22:36:36 sykompomp: you can always use 'make' for Lisp, too 22:36:39 xristos: kinda like how these scripting languages work, eh? You can, in theory, code python mostly how you code lisp, with a repl that gets code loaded into it. 22:36:42 *gigamonkey* wishes he had more energy to keep Lispbox up to date. 22:36:56 sykopomp: yeah thats not emphasizing the interactive nature of lisp 22:36:59 but my impression is that most people just don't bother doing it that way -- maybe very experienced people in big projects. 22:37:04 <[df]> I dunno, I'm just constantly annoyed by these people who think that C++ == visual studio, or java == eclipse etc 22:37:06 energy energy energy energy 22:37:08 patmatch [n=wmbot@dsl093-216-036.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:30 able is very nice though 22:37:33 minion, chant 22:37:33 MORE CHAPTERS 22:37:34 i'm glad it exists 22:37:48 I'm annoyed that ABLE got rid of all its menus. 22:38:08 I was working on a tutorial for people who aren't very C-c C-x M-x M-butterfly-oriented :P 22:38:26 but it seems ltk menus don't work portably, so he got rid of them :\ 22:41:45 Davse_Ba1se [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 22:42:36 able? 22:42:58 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.217.66] has joined #lisp 22:44:31 -!- joswig [n=joswig@f054054105.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 22:45:12 -!- ahaas_ [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:45:27 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:45:31 ahaas_ [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:38 ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:58 Ralith: http://phil.nullable.eu/ 22:47:33 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 22:48:53 cool 22:49:03 wonder how it compares to climacs 22:50:03 francogrex [n=franco@48.49-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 22:50:34 cffi trouble; when asd-install it's bugging with: component #:BABEL not found 22:50:43 anyone knows why? 22:51:09 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 22:51:28 -!- Davse_Ba1se [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:52:14 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:52:17 -!- Hun [n=hun@82.149.80.128] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:53:05 couldn't find BABEL, I guess. 22:53:50 yeah; well the cffi guys have to write a readme with all dependecies needed 22:54:13 see the .asd-file, francogrex 22:54:18 -!- mrSpec is now known as mrSpec[away] 22:54:26 ..it has a :depends-on which mention what cffi depends on 22:54:29 http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Installation.html#Installation 22:59:13 it's unclear to me why able is a less opaque choice than emacs/slime 22:59:44 Presumably because it use C-x C-c and C-v for cut/copy/paste. 22:59:49 s/use/uses/ 23:00:19 so it's the old 'people are intractable' saw. 23:00:37 that's kind of depressing. 23:01:07 And, also I'd imagine that if folks are going to learn a new thing, something small and single purpose is less scary than the complete worldview in a box that is Emacs. 23:01:15 of course, emacs-style text selection/kill/yank/spank/whatever is bizarre and awful, other than the niceness of cycling through the kill ring 23:01:46 Thanks to Steve Jobs! (Not). 23:02:08 the thing about emacs is, so long as you don't point out the fact that it's actually a lisp implementation that happens to manifest a text editor, nobody notices it isn't a text editor. 23:02:08 <[df]> personally I used emacs before I used cl, so it was easy for me 23:02:49 But Command-X, Command-C and Command-V with the single button mouse, are what made the fortune of Steve Jobs and Apple. The simplicity of the "user interface"... 23:03:11 "simplicity" 23:03:27 p_l: ok, the dumbing-down. 23:03:28 Apple was built like every other cult; there weren't that many (good) technical reasons for their success. ;) 23:04:35 Apple is emacs friendly. 23:04:46 Fade: oh yes, there was, compared to what was available in 1984. The personal computer world was very confusing, and unappealing to normal people. 23:04:48 to the extent that they ship an emacs since OS X started. 23:04:59 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs1OO 23:05:02 Since NeXTSTEP started! 23:05:07 Fade: emacs-style keyboard shortcuts too. 23:05:14 -!- bgs1OO is now known as bgs100 23:05:31 oh, and they make it particularly easy to rebind capslock. 23:05:36 And NeXTSTEP included (and MacOSX continue including) basic emacs control keys in the NSText and NSTextField objects. 23:05:48 amiga was also pretty nice (nicer than macos of the time imo even) but it came a little bit later and unfortunately commodore failed to market it 23:05:54 That's how I made my first steps toward emacs, using TextEdit.app... :-) 23:05:57 pjb: I suspect it was because NeXTSTEP was quite different from MacOS :) 23:06:03 I came from the commodore world, so I always thought macs were sort of toy like by comparison. 23:06:18 p_l: quite. 23:06:28 phadthai: yeah, Commodore was a big failure regarding marketing their products 23:06:46 Fade: It was Commodore who made toys ;-) 23:06:51 heh 23:07:12 phadthai: I heard that they basically had Sun asking to make their A3000UX a "Sun Workstation" and rejected it 23:07:13 my first personal unix machine was an amiga3000 running a commodore port of systemv that I loaded from tape. 23:07:14 I would work for an amiga+video toaster store back then, and the little family business had to do their own advertizing without any commodore help for instance 23:07:51 My first personal unix machine was a MacIIfx with A/UX 2.0.1 23:07:56 Fade: Oh, A3000 with A3000UX OS? 23:08:02 loaded from CD-ROM :-) 23:08:13 commodore the company was an unmitigated disaster. their computers were very nice. 23:08:17 p_l: aye 23:08:25 p_l: interesting... I've used an A3000UX a bit but didn't know unix at all back then :) 23:08:30 Fade: it wasn't bundled with your Amiga, right? Cause A3000UX OS is a red herring these days 23:08:44 -!- loxs[] [n=loxs@82.137.72.32] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:08:52 Well, 680x0-based Amigas, Ataris and Macs were great. 23:08:59 jmbr [n=jmbr@3.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 23:09:18 well, commodore sold the system /w sysV, but as the hardware was identical and the cost between the sysV machine and the regular amiga was enormous, I just rolled my own. 23:09:22 I don't know about Amigas, but Mac software was really superior to Atari. 23:09:41 -!- francogrex [n=franco@48.49-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:09:44 apple didn't really catch up with amiga until OSX, which is hilarious. 23:09:45 pjb: You'd be surprised how far 3rd party components kept Amiga running. A3000T was "competetive" with Macs till ~1999 xD 23:10:00 their whole 'cooperative' multitasking model was comedic. ;) 23:10:17 Right. That's why I switched to A/UX and NeXTSTEP, True OSes. 23:10:22 *p_l* had seen A3000T with G4 733 MHz, 512M memory and 4 PCI slots... 23:10:53 when apple chose NeXT for the replacement for Pink, I had to laugh. NeXT had some intersting tech, but jfc, it was always the slowest kid in the unix class. 23:10:57 unfortunately the accelerators were quite expensive however 23:11:24 phadthai: sure. But it's still a big achievement to see how far you could drag it :) 23:11:29 absolutely 23:11:44 <[df]> ah, diversity... 23:12:16 So Google will write a new OS... 23:12:20 I'm still looking for an A4000 tower to complete my amiga collection. 23:12:36 pjb: I thought it was another linux distribution :) 23:13:10 pjb: it's afaik linux with a VM for running GoogleOS apps 23:13:20 Well, MacOSX hardly can be characterized as yet another Mach\BSD distribution... 23:13:28 <[df]> aiui, it uses the linux kernel, but they will do their own graphics layer etc 23:13:32 I sold my last amiga many years ago, an A600 23:13:42 Yes, they reuse the kernel for the drivers, but everything above is different. 23:13:46 the A2000+68040 burned :) 23:14:01 I still use an A2000 to play a few games. ;) 23:14:21 i'm looking for system media to recussitate my A3000. 23:14:22 I only have uae now, but also rarely use it 23:14:24 pjb: GoogleOS still runs on standard linux stack, it's ChromeOS apps that run in VM that is probably implemented on top of Chrome+Linux 23:14:26 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-82-32.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:14:40 pjb: OSX, otoh, is much much more different 23:14:55 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-5-211.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:15:10 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 23:15:16 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:15:48 Google will certainly change /bin/init like Apple did. 23:16:11 cp chrome /bin/init 23:16:15 heh 23:16:21 init could stand to be revisited. apple's revisitation is awful. 23:16:24 Darwin afaik is a mix of *BSD, OSF/1 with their own driver system and big set of libs 23:16:38 pjb: many distros have their own init systems 23:16:40 there's no OSF/1 in darwin. 23:16:45 the kernel is mach+bsd 23:16:54 are you talking about style or implementation? 23:16:56 Fade: It's referenced somewhere. And OSF/1 was Mach+BSD :) 23:17:33 Fade: I had seen mentions of OSF/1 while looking through Darwin sources, was quite surprised 23:17:38 OS X is the definitive evidence that torvalds was right and tannenbaum was wrong in teh great kernel debate. ;) 23:17:55 heh 23:17:58 OSF/1 had a mach style kernel 23:18:04 but it wasn't mach 23:18:16 but isn't the mach part in osx a potential reason for it being slower? :)) 23:18:28 of course. 23:18:34 its a bad design 23:18:39 the context switching in OSX is crazy. ;) 23:18:41 and they will probably change it 23:18:47 everything runs in a pseudo user context. 23:18:50 they wrap a lot of things 23:18:59 with every release they move more and more into the main kernel loop. 23:19:05 Fade: the only "full" OSF/1 system I had seen says "Mach 2.5 kernel" 23:19:29 with extension to run more stuff in privileged mode, I guess, because Mach was a flop 23:19:36 p_l: I may be wrong, but I thought DEC implemented their own microkernel. 23:19:46 mach was a CMU thing. 23:20:15 Fade: OSF/1 was sourced to companies that later done their own variants, iirc 23:20:38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tru64_UNIX 23:20:46 and DEC OSF/1 docs said "Mach 2.5" :) 23:20:58 you are right. 23:21:22 but it's ultimately a hybrid kernel. 23:21:52 btw, if someone can try and build SBCL on the exotic platforms (sparc, ppc, mips, etc), that'd be reassuring wrt .3. 23:21:56 yeah. It isn't really that microkernels are bad, it's just that Mach was hardly "micro" 23:22:18 if have mips64 (only irix), sparc64, and supersparc systems. 23:22:25 I have some standard ppc OSX boxes. 23:23:01 p_l: mach kernels tend to get hybridised because pure microkernel systems seem to perform awfully at things like disk I/O. 23:23:48 pkhuong`: but seeing as how I don't keep them attached to the open internet, it'd have to wait until tomorrow. 23:24:46 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-127.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:25:07 I could actually contribute a mips machine to the test infrastructure if you'd be interested. 23:25:27 I have an E4000 that would make a good build host if I can rescue it from a bad firmware flash. 23:26:45 Fade: Mach kernels get hybridised because Mach wasn't "micro" at all - so costs of context switches and passing messages (Mach had awful messaging implementation) were enormous 23:26:48 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@CPE00179ab667a9-CM001a6682dc74.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:26:57 -!- nha [n=prefect@p3E9E59CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["42nd quit message."] 23:27:09 *Fade* chuckles 23:27:10 Fade: compare that with L4, that fits in L1 cache 23:27:42 mach is as close to a microkernel as we're likely to see in the real world, so it fits the 'close enough for rock and roll' criteria. 23:28:06 anyhow, we're inadvertently hijacking #lisp. ;) 23:28:14 Fade: L4, QNX and that abandoned microkernel from Sun are all much more micro, with first two actually being deployed in systems 23:28:47 BeOS also used custom microkernel that didn't have Mach's problems :) 23:28:49 incidentally, Tru64 is my fav commercial unix. 23:29:09 I greatly lament the passing of our friends at DEC. 23:29:24 don't get nyef started on BeOS. 23:30:12 Fade: well, getting sold to Intel's lapdog definitely wasn't going to help non-x86 development 23:30:16 L4 is in L1, that's great! 23:30:36 I don't even want to think about it. 23:30:37 A Lisp VM in L1! 23:31:44 pjb: haha. incidentally, snap4 would fit in L2 cache of most modern cpus (with a big part of it fitting into L1 on last HPPAs) 23:31:56 and L4 has unfortunate name when it comes to caches :D 23:32:18 the only exotic arch I don't have much access to is HPPA 23:32:21 p_l: does Haiku have the same kernel design? 23:32:28 although I'm not sure if any of my alphas are in bootable condition. 23:33:57 Ralith: I don't really know, but I think they tried to get as close as possible (they wanted binary compatibility, afaik) 23:34:10 they got it 23:34:13 though binary compatibility is a borked goal due to GCC 23:34:14 at least until they switched to gcc4 23:34:18 the ABI is compatible. I don't know if the kernel substrate is similar. 23:34:18 yeah 23:34:27 but you can still build a gcc2 version that's binary compatible 23:34:39 just won't be able to run modern software 23:34:43 Fade: the ABI stopped being compatible with gcc3, since BeOS used C++ api 23:35:26 there was never a gcc3 version 23:35:28 they went 2 -> 4 23:35:43 huh 23:38:02 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-23-72.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:40:01 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:40:40 p_l: do you have any alphas? 23:41:19 alphas of what? 23:41:24 oh 23:41:27 alpha machines 23:44:01 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:44:15 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1DFB1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:48 Fade: AS255/233 with 32M of RAM and VMS6.1 (H3 patchlevel, I think) 23:47:25 I'll gladly accept memory that fits in (2 memory blocks, each with 4 identical FP 72pin SIMM modules with 36bit parity) 23:47:29 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:48:23 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 23:49:49 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.93.32] has joined #lisp 23:51:45 -!- mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:52:23 mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #lisp 23:53:29 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:38 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@CPE00179ab667a9-CM001a6682dc74.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Success] 23:57:59 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection]