00:00:12 linked lists are old hat, but all the lisp functions that work with them i'm still adjusting to 00:00:12 madnificent: no, it's just that I could hardly send a piece of paper to Demosthenex in time for even a laggy discussion :-) 00:00:46 pjb: ah lol, no :P Demosthenex had to do it 00:00:50 Demosthenex: as I said, this is what makes lisp funny: you can pun on the data types. 00:01:17 Demosthenex: so, an a-list, is a dictionary, but also a list, and also a cons (or NIL). 00:01:19 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:01:21 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 00:01:33 It can also be considered as a tree (see the claar url above). 00:02:10 Demosthenex: so you can process it considering it however you want, to get the level of abstraction or efficiency/beauty you want. 00:02:31 Are there any bots here? 00:02:31 claar is a bot. For more info: /msg claar help 00:02:43 :-) 00:02:48 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:03:41 please, could someone clarify what is meant by for-value reference, esp. in connection to the `ignore' declaration? I'm confused by the fact that in the `delete-if' clhs documentation, there's an implementation in terms of `delete' like this: (lambda (ignore item) (funcall test item)) 00:03:51 pjb: did you build the bot just for the drawing of s-expressions? 00:04:00 -!- gonzojive [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has left #lisp 00:04:06 madnificent: yes. 00:04:18 I had that cons-to-ascci function, and wanted to make it to good use. 00:04:36 I need to improve this bot, it doesn't handle well disconnections, and things like that yet. 00:04:57 stepnem: I don't seen any declaration in the lambda you show us here. 00:05:04 clhs delete-if 00:05:04 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm 00:06:13 specbot: there are two arguments, one named IGNORE and another ITEM. Per the rules for TEST functions, NIL (the first argument to DELETE) is bound to IGNORE, and the element of the list to ITEM. 00:06:35 Then IGNORE is ignored, which should be declared: the lambda lacks a (declare (ignore ignore)). 00:06:44 (with-section 'commercial pjb: as I'm apparently being a mindless zealot about sykobot (even though I haven't hacked on it): try to integrate it with sykobot.) 00:06:54 hehe, yes, I'm a dumbhead 00:06:56 :| 00:06:58 :test needs a two argument function... 00:06:59 s/specbot/stepnem/ Sorry. 00:07:00 yeah 00:07:02 sorry and thank you 00:07:28 Quadrescence [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #lisp 00:08:10 madnificent: who's skyobot? 00:08:15 sykobot 00:09:10 pjb: sykopomp's bot. He's not the only dev though. it's on github (/me searches) 00:09:16 pjb: http://github.com/sykopomp/sykobot/tree/master 00:09:16 madnificent: well claar starts as a sexp drawing, but I hope to make it a strong AI eventually :-) 00:09:32 :P 00:10:15 Adlai: ahaa, the mindfull zealot comes to the rescue 00:10:27 "mindful zealot"? 00:10:44 Adlai: I was mindless, you have a mind 00:11:18 My life for Aiur. 00:11:42 I'll have a look at syko. 00:12:24 It would be nice if we could make a lisp bot intelligent enough to teach lisp to newbies... 00:12:54 pjb: http://demosthenes.org/alist.png 00:13:28 Xach: For the Hive! 00:14:09 Demosthenex: want a piece of meat, boy ? 00:14:25 Demosthenex: you have to choose, in your toplevel conses, whether you have symbols or references to the lower level conses. 00:14:47 Demosthenex: see claar's diagram, it leaves * representing a pointer source in those conses. 00:17:25 i see ;] 00:19:07 pjb: so where do you make that choice? 00:19:48 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@113.77.29.82] has joined #lisp 00:19:51 What do you mean? In your diagram, you wrote twice "one", and twice "two", and twice "three". 00:20:13 thats a rendering error, duh, lemme fix ;] 00:20:47 view it again ;] 00:21:04 i copied another example that used \N in the beginning to recycle the nodename... 00:21:16 That's better. You could then put stars in the cdr cells pointing to conses too. 00:21:35 -!- mdavid [n=mdavid@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:22:04 there you go ;] 00:22:22 Great! 00:22:41 Gone to bed. Good night! 00:23:16 good night pjb 00:27:19 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:30:11 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.177.22] has joined #lisp 00:36:06 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:38:59 -!- rullie [n=rullie@129-97-184-118.uwaterloo.ca] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 00:40:39 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 00:42:41 joachifm [n=joachim@ti132110a340-2570.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 00:43:00 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@ti132110a340-2570.bb.online.no] has quit [Client Quit] 00:47:30 rouslan [n=Rouslan@pool-71-255-139-207.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:32 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483BA4E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:55:51 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["restart"] 00:55:58 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:28 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-084-022.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:56:56 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:58:50 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-1b51876c5e43b0d6] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:59:16 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-117-37.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 01:01:33 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 01:01:36 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:04 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:06:02 nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:03 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:10:03 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.199] has joined #lisp 01:10:55 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:13:05 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-c00a6df85c84958b] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:16:00 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@12.48.195.73] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:16:56 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [] 01:16:57 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-36-239.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:17:45 -!- iam [n=iam@adsl-75-3-90-107.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 01:21:05 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:24 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:16 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 01:27:41 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:32:23 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:33:31 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:33:31 -!- rlb3 [n=rlb@166.205.4.11] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info"] 01:33:31 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Success] 01:33:33 gonzojive [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 01:34:30 Is there a function that behave the same as FIND except it returns the first non-null value? 01:35:51 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:36:43 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-124-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:49 (find-if-not #'null '(nil nil 42)) => 42 01:36:51 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:37:13 Pegazus [n=gawgaw@host250.190-224-109.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 01:37:43 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@75.22.31.68] has quit ["leaving"] 01:38:16 (find nil seq :test-not #'eql) 01:38:39 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 01:38:49 (some #'identity '(nil 1)) 01:39:17 now we're drifting off... :) 01:40:57 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:29 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:42:52 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.223.252] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 01:44:43 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:06 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:46:02 nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:38 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:48:45 -!- Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:49:00 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-109a1d4a55e462c5] has joined #lisp 01:49:23 Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:36 pkhuong: ping 01:52:49 -!- nowhereman [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:54:38 nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:04 -!- rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:57:45 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 01:57:55 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 02:01:26 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["A way a lone a last a loved a long the..."] 02:01:49 ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:48 rullie_ [n=rullie@CPE00179acf86ed-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:04:18 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:06:01 -!- rullie_ [n=rullie@CPE00179acf86ed-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:07:58 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:12 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:24 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:10:31 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:11:02 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:13 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:15:33 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:17:04 jchicas [n=jchicas@49.146.216.201.dsl.intelnet.net.gt] has joined #lisp 02:17:29 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@49.146.216.201.dsl.intelnet.net.gt] has quit [Client Quit] 02:18:01 -!- keithr` [n=user@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:19:00 dys`` [n=andreas@krlh-5f72d918.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 02:19:24 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:46 rtoym: pong 02:26:11 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:26:16 keithr [n=user@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:21 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@113.77.29.82] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:28:41 pkhuong: Was wondering if you've thought anymore about complex contagion. 02:30:20 not at all. I decided to obey the spec re signed 0s and complex +/-, but to introduce special cases for mult and division because I don't think anyone who uses stock routines really knows what they expect ;) 02:30:48 Heh. 02:31:19 "obey the spec". What do you mean here? x -> #c(x +0.0)? 02:31:25 right. 02:31:27 illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:55 And x*(a+b*i) -> x*a+x*b*i? 02:32:36 yup. 02:33:32 -!- dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f02e.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:34:03 Ok. I've been rethinking and maybe do the same for +/-. It's only an issue if the complex number contains an imaginary part of +/- 0. Most people won't care, and for those who do (complex x) "fixes" the issue. 02:34:50 Plus Kahan recommends not upgrading to complex. 02:35:24 mm. k. 02:35:37 The ricer in me worries that there's no SSE friendly way to do that ;) 02:35:55 Still haven't quite decided that, though. 02:36:33 Yeah, can't do that with SSE. 02:40:57 Hmm. What to do? 02:41:12 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.199] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:43:27 ISTM the specialised routines for mult and div are clearly both more precise and more efficient, so not using them would be weird. 02:43:37 The case isn't as clear for sub and add. 02:45:26 Right. 02:47:36 At one point, I thought making the imaginary part be -0.0 would work, but it doesn't quite. So close.... 02:48:10 But that would be weird too since it wouldn't match what complex would do or what imagpart might return. 02:52:41 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [] 02:55:33 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:56:08 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:57:57 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 02:58:28 jchicas [n=jchicas@139smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 02:58:43 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@139smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit [Client Quit] 02:59:14 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:40 nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:25 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:10:33 _ace4016_ [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:11:19 -!- _ace4016_ is now known as ace4016 03:12:16 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:01 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:17:04 peddie [n=matthew@67.169.49.37] has joined #lisp 03:20:08 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.199] has joined #lisp 03:26:20 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:27:16 ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-69-209-214-223.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:27 -!- peddie_ [n=matthew@67.169.49.37] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:35:54 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.199] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:37:52 -!- tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit ["leaving"] 03:41:25 lispm [n=joswig@e177125219.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 03:45:35 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [] 03:46:53 rlb3 [n=rlb@166.205.4.11] has joined #lisp 03:50:28 nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:57 -!- rlb3 [n=rlb@166.205.4.11] has quit [Client Quit] 03:51:29 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-165.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:30 -!- dorkfish [n=dorkfish@74-131-91-175.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:53:42 gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 03:57:22 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:05 -!- Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:58:49 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:05:42 anybody know a good 2D physics engine in lisp or with lisp bindings? Alternatively, perhaps one with a C api for easy wrapping? 04:06:35 Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:20 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-194.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:08:30 -!- Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:09:05 Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:40 *_3b* should try to bind one of the flash physics libs 04:09:55 Xach: sc? 04:12:16 _3b: they're all based on box2d; just bind that directly. 04:12:25 <_3b> Ralith: from flash? 04:12:25 or port it; judging by how often it's ported, that might not be hard. 04:12:31 wat? 04:12:34 box2d is C++ 04:13:02 *_3b* is writing for flash vm, so c++ donesn't help me 04:13:08 <_3b> *doesn't 04:13:17 aw 04:13:19 why're you doing that 04:13:27 <_3b> why not? 04:14:54 assimilate 04:15:20 there's already a flash port for box2d 04:15:26 well, "actionscript" 04:15:47 Good morning. 04:15:52 _3b: it would probably stress-test your flash vm. I'm sure a physics engine for flash probably milks adobe's vm for all it's worth. 04:16:03 *_3b* is using adobe's vm 04:16:07 or at least for a significant fraction of its TCO 04:16:08 <_3b> just not any of the avilable compilers 04:16:16 oic 04:16:44 <_3b> (and porting to my compiler would be a bad idea currently, since i don't do any typing :) 04:17:26 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-238-188.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has quit ["wha .. new kernel; let's break some stuff"] 04:18:40 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:21:28 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-14b87e9bacef7e64] has joined #lisp 04:24:06 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 04:25:34 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-238-188.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 04:26:52 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.199] has joined #lisp 04:27:09 _3b: are you targeting lisp at flash or what? 04:29:09 -!- alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:29:54 vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 04:30:06 <_3b> yes 04:32:03 cool! 04:36:17 alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:07 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-140-71.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:39:41 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [] 04:44:07 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:48:35 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 04:49:35 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-53-236.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:50:47 fusss [i=73803378@gateway/web/freenode/x-5d05ad054de4f793] has joined #lisp 04:50:55 greetings! 04:51:05 what a great day 04:51:40 so my toy "form" language is looking good. barely three days old but very useful already. 04:52:13 would be nice to find people using weblocks or rails to compare notes 04:52:52 fusss, as i was saying yesterday it seems like you have made a sort of early version of weblocks 04:53:03 why not just use weblocks? what's wrong with it? 04:53:18 i just can't "account" for its performance 04:53:25 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:53:39 you mean it's too slow? how did you measure it? 04:53:45 i have my own thing, but i also won a contract to create a social network for a certain profession 04:54:36 i didn't measure it, i just can't stand the combination of CPS, prototype/scripacolous, and very high-level widgety design 04:54:53 if I lose sight for the underlying hunchentoot and cl-who, i tend to panic 04:55:17 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 04:55:24 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:36 fusss, i don't think weblocks is slow at all, CPS is incredibly useful, and it's relatively mature 04:57:28 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:57:44 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 04:57:58 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:58:59 for all control transfer semantics, i am using sessions + REFERER and REDIRECT 04:59:07 fusss pasted "use case toy form language" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83612 04:59:23 fusss pasted "use case toy form language" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83613 04:59:44 paste twice, sorry 05:01:38 fusss: looks like an early version of Lisp on Lines... you've got a lot of work ahead of you ;) 05:01:54 bloody hell 05:02:20 i must say though, for *this* particular project, it was quicker to write a tool than to google documentation 05:02:32 sometimes you don't really grok something until you invent it, independently 05:02:49 or weblocks, or ucw... wait, somebody tell me what the difference between those three are, again? drewc, I had a hard time finding info on lisp on lines or, worse yet, ROFL, when I went googling the other day 05:03:09 my main use for is reverse engineering a website from just the database. they php files got wiped by script kiddies but the db survived. 05:03:12 slyrus_: there isn't much info... my fault entirenly 05:03:27 fusss: that's what lol was designed to do lol 05:03:45 hard to tell people not to reinvent the wheel if they can't find the one you already invented... 05:04:29 this is true. 05:05:44 did UCW ever get the cleanup it needed long ago? does it still have its own webserver and all sorts of other cruft that seemed to make it just ... too ... big? 05:05:52 not that I'm one to talk on this particular subject... 05:06:07 where is your lol and rofl drewc? i couldn't find them yesterday 05:06:08 drewc annotated #83613 "some lol examples... does that and more" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83613#1 05:06:35 slyrus_: it did.. ucw is quite sparse. 05:06:55 slyrus_: that said, it still has it's own webservers (quite a few .. at least 3) 05:07:03 ilitirit: in clbuild 05:07:08 its own 05:07:16 minion: thwap to me 05:07:17 drewc: look at thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 05:07:31 drewc: holly fuckarolli! :-D 05:07:50 my hack is to lol what Sheeple is to Smalltalk :-P 05:08:37 fusss: i'm willing to spend the time to teach rofl + lol to anyone who wants to learn. ;) 05:09:15 3 webservers and it's sparse?? 05:09:42 drewc: let "us" do the feasability study first. we have big investments in the current technology and might also want to see other vendors' offerings first. 05:10:07 slyrus_: all are fully abstracted to the user.. they all present the same interface 05:10:09 drewc: sounds like time writing documentation might be worth the investment then :) 05:10:16 sure, but why?? 05:10:19 as do mod-lisp, hunchentoot, aserve and araneida 05:10:22 -!- Suprano [n=anonym00@77-22-3-25-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:10:23 slyrus_: one web server per each HTTP method. 05:10:50 slyrus_: one is non-threaded, one is iolib based and one uses usocket (for the built in ones). 05:10:55 hunchentoot > &rest 05:10:59 disagree 05:11:26 how so? 05:11:30 hunchentoot is a framework masquerading as a web server... and it's slower then the ucw webservers. 05:11:58 specialize your own taskmaster and bypass flexi-streams et viola 05:12:16 i don't need 1/2 of what hunchentoot offers .. i uses apache or pound in front of a lightweight http server because that's how i deliver my apps. 05:12:52 retro-fit db storage for hunchentoot's session-db and you can a farm of those little fuckers just fine :-) 05:13:12 all that work when an older, more mature web server exists as part of ucw. 05:13:25 that said, ucw works behind hunchentoot as well... 05:13:35 so what's the issue exactly? 05:13:44 too much choice? 05:13:54 no, choice is good 05:14:08 but ht has the cleanest architecture of anyone, imo 05:14:21 fusss: how many lisp web servers have you used then? 05:14:35 fusss: hence the lackluster performance? :) 05:14:35 i have allegroserve running since 2003 :-) 05:14:46 that's 2 05:15:06 i tried erran gat's weird one and left a bad taste in my mouth 05:15:12 araneida? cl-http? 05:15:15 httpdotlisp, iirc 05:15:28 ucw httpd? 05:15:33 no, might have ran araneida for a weekend, but not cl-httpd 05:15:41 so what are you saying drew 05:15:44 hunchentoot is thread based... what if i don't like threads? 05:15:46 *slyrus_* is just glad he fixed hunchentoot-cgi such that his ht instance doesn't crap out after a week's usage 05:16:20 drewc: what's wrong with threads? 05:16:27 drewc: the multithreading taskmaster is just but ONE. hunchentoot includes two. 05:16:55 mine is a single threaded multiplexer with an epoll binding courtesy of iolib 05:17:30 fusss: well, that's nice. bet you bypass flexi-streams too... yes? :) 05:17:35 drewc: if you have a favorite, in terms of performance, i am all ears 05:17:53 hey in terms of performance it must be tpd2 05:18:17 fusss: the iolib backend for UCW is quite nice performance wise, but is not an epoll based server, which would be faster. 05:18:31 ilitirit: hence *why* I want (you, me, others) to tack hunchentoot-compat on tpd2 05:18:37 (i have one of those too hacked up oo) 05:19:12 drewc: my hunchentoot is, and i like the performance so far. not exactly nginx, which does 8k rs/s, but upper 900s 05:19:19 fact is, for me, hunchentoot introduces extra complexity that i don't need... so why use it over another solutions? 05:19:49 *ilitirit* 's local branch of tpd2 clocked at 8.2kr/s on one core of a laptop 05:19:55 especially when ucw-httpd is both older and i've been using it in production without problems for years. 05:19:58 drewc: complexity in server design or complexity in web app code? 05:20:07 fusss: both. 05:20:17 so let's talk shop, i really am interested 05:20:53 fusss: hunchentoot adds a dispatch layer that is identical in function to the one in UCW... there is no need, when writing a ucw app, for hunchentoot. 05:20:54 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177125219.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:21:06 what is the typical programming model for UCW? in ht, i write page handlers, define-easy-handler that do "CGI" type stuff without the CGI, and for static data, i serve them out of pub.mysite.com with apache 05:21:21 after following this discussion i'm getting in itch. an itch to write my own httpd. :) 05:21:59 the reason i love hunchentoot is that it makes the whole server/web-app distinction non-existant 05:22:08 fusss: it depends on the application entirely.. ucw offers a simple CGI type thing, but also offers advanced control flow operators 05:22:35 fusss: have you read the intro to ucw? 05:22:59 http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/repos/ucw-core/manual/getting-started.txt 05:23:14 i will read it now 05:23:18 fusss: that covers the basics of what UCW offers. 05:23:27 i read it 6 months or so ago when i was starting with hunchentoot 05:24:05 i spent a week choosing between ucw and weblocks, went with weblocks because it had slightly more documentation 05:24:37 hmmm... can they handle a big site? 05:24:59 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 05:25:01 konr: Mu. 05:25:05 morning 05:25:12 hey splittist 05:25:14 hey splittist 05:25:19 heh 05:25:23 drewc: you cannot answer my question because it is based in incorrect pressupositions? 05:25:29 splittist: hi! 05:25:49 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:26:23 konr: define "big site" 05:26:55 and how determined are you to have any single web server "handle a big site", including financial investment, etc. 05:26:58 thousands of page-views per hour, hundreds of users 05:27:22 ~700 - 900 requests per second here 05:27:32 fusss: well... with 1.5 million pageviews... I'd estimate 7 million hits per month... 05:27:40 fusss: I have my own server 05:27:49 wow 05:27:53 fusss: is that with server-side logic working? 05:28:10 or just spewing out ~something 05:28:35 guaqua: i am serving banner ads 05:28:48 yes, server-side logic working, munching on matrices 05:29:02 sounds nice, then :) 05:29:28 fusss: your site handles 2.6 billion requests a month? 05:29:47 *2.3 05:29:50 konr: i wish, that's in benchmarks 05:30:05 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.199] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:31:15 drewc: do you know of any good webserver farm management software worth cloning? 05:31:24 <_3b> hmm, wonder what i did to break all my keybindings in the slime repl 05:31:34 fusss: so hunchentoot can handle this ammount of data? 05:31:41 *volume 05:32:14 fusss: that i don't. In fact, in my experience most products in the webhosting world are _not_ worth cloning ;) 05:32:18 the ruby folks seem to use capistrano 05:32:28 konr: a mutilated hunchentoot, fucked up beyond recognition would :-) 05:32:40 Hrm... so can lol work with cl-perec, or does it obviate the need? 05:33:00 pinterface: it will work find with cl-perec, and the need is still there. 05:33:23 pinterface: lol only handles the display of objects.. what those objects do beyond that is up to them. 05:33:40 *fusss* needs to have a sit down with sbcl on ways to monitor server load, performance and health 05:33:54 pinterface: DESCRIBED-CLASS is a composable metaclass, and will work with ANY metaclass 05:34:09 clos is fancy :-) 05:34:27 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 05:34:45 Damn. Now I have another sparsely-documented probably-useful library to look into. 05:34:46 in the case of the example shown, DESCRIBED-DB-ACCESS-CLASS is a metaclass class with DESCRIBED-CLASS and STANDARD-DB-ACCESS-CLASS as superclasses 05:35:01 class class class 05:35:19 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:40 drewc: beats self self self object self self 05:35:59 well, given that i just 'finished' my 'literate programming using org-mode' hack, some documented examples for LoL are probably forthcoming. 05:36:34 until then, there is http://www.deepsky.com/~fade/roflcopter/ , which records and packages an IRC lecture i gave on ROFL+LOL 05:36:55 drewc: did you know what org-mode is used by people following the Getting Things Done time management method? just saying ;-) 05:37:14 fusss: i'll add and schedule a TODO right now :) 05:37:21 -!- Samy is now known as sbahra 05:37:44 sbahra: yabnil eeeeih :-P 05:38:06 fusss, hey :) 05:38:33 sbahra: moved to australia man, no more DC 05:38:40 (there are no TODO's in GTD, but there are in org-mode) 05:39:32 fusss, :( 05:39:33 drewc: Thanks. That looks more relevant than anything google was spitting out. 05:39:36 fusss, would've liked to meet you. 05:39:42 fusss, I hope things go well for you there. 05:40:26 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@charanda.shochu.sandino.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:29 sbahra: i called you over when i had a case of beer. you had 24 reasons to meet me :-P 05:40:51 sbahra: msg me when i am around, gotta run back to work now. cheers! 05:43:52 -!- fusss [i=73803378@gateway/web/freenode/x-5d05ad054de4f793] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 05:46:22 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:23 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 05:52:00 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:54:44 o/ 05:58:01 -!- mogunus [n=marco@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:59:23 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 06:00:29 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:37 pjbw [i=55a93f19@gateway/web/freenode/x-c310938fd17009f6] has joined #lisp 06:01:29 Didn't know about that webchat.freenode.net irc client. Seems nice. 06:05:33 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 06:06:25 hmmm, my slime buffer is stuck on "compiling (defmacro foo ...)". Can I somehow abort it? C-c C-c and C-d C-d are not working 06:06:57 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["off"] 06:07:02 seems a bit less heavy than the mibbit one, pjbw 06:07:11 http://qwebirc.org/ 06:07:38 try hitting C-c-c-c-c .. a couple of times, konr 06:08:01 if that don't work maybe something has died completely (check *inferior-lisp* ..?) 06:08:17 -!- Pegazus [n=gawgaw@host250.190-224-109.telecom.net.ar] has quit [] 06:08:18 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 06:08:41 wow... I somehow got into slime's source code 06:08:55 lnostdal-qweb [i=5a95eebc@gateway/web/freenode/x-0aa45a02d8411e5e] has joined #lisp 06:09:44 hello 06:11:31 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.199] has joined #lisp 06:11:46 -!- vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:14:59 -!- lnostdal-qweb [i=5a95eebc@gateway/web/freenode/x-0aa45a02d8411e5e] has quit ["Page closed"] 06:15:38 adamvh [n=adamvh@c-76-125-233-103.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:34 elisp is gibberish to me .. just closing that down and continuing tends to work .. heh 06:19:52 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 06:20:01 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-14b87e9bacef7e64] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:20:51 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:21:12 -!- Troll is now known as Elench 06:21:49 -!- Posterdati [n=tapioca@79.2.217.40] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:22:26 Posterdati [n=tapioca@host70-226-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 06:26:22 hmmm, what should I use to connect to a mysql server? clsql? 06:27:34 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-473b684a3316b881] has joined #lisp 06:27:40 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-473b684a3316b881] has quit [Client Quit] 06:28:14 i think a lot of (most?) lispers use a PostgreSQL back-end 06:28:28 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-8ba1eb58c9a44fde] has joined #lisp 06:29:18 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-8ba1eb58c9a44fde] has quit [Client Quit] 06:29:23 ..that doesn't answer your question though .. heh 06:31:04 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:31:39 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:31:47 konr: i went for clsql. there's cl-mysql, but clsql seemed like a simpler method 06:31:50 haha, is postgreSQL somehow better? 06:32:12 abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 06:32:14 clsql doesn't come with date types etc, but at least i can live with it 06:32:21 konr: in many ways :) 06:32:43 guaqua: really? is it faster, for example? 06:32:45 there's some kind of summary: http://www.wikivs.com/wiki/MySQL_vs_PostgreSQL 06:33:47 mysql has been adding features, postgresql has been working on speed 06:36:31 i prefer postgres because its data types make more sense to me. you can just use serial as a data type instead of doing some integer index unique stuff. 06:36:48 and it has far better documentation 06:37:20 there are so many things to learn and work on... 06:37:47 that it's easy to lose the focus and learn more about it than about your project :( 06:38:08 I've been configuring mutt for a couple of hours now 06:40:06 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:40:47 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:47:27 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 06:47:52 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:48:32 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 06:51:47 -!- adamvh [n=adamvh@c-76-125-233-103.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:52:12 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 06:54:59 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 06:55:29 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit ["leaving"] 06:56:02 adamvh [n=adamvh@c-76-125-233-103.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:28 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:58:56 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest34643 07:02:05 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-36-37.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:45 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:04:49 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 07:05:12 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:07:24 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.199] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:10:12 -!- Bigshot_ [n=BIG_SHOT@CPE002129abc864-CM001ac35cd4d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:11:19 anton [n=user@77.70.2.99] has joined #lisp 07:14:37 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-5-186.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:15:42 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 07:19:32 midori [i=5895d243@gateway/web/freenode/x-36ce2cb4a36d05aa] has joined #lisp 07:20:00 -!- midori is now known as Guest159 07:20:04 -!- Guest159 [i=5895d243@gateway/web/freenode/x-36ce2cb4a36d05aa] has quit [Client Quit] 07:24:28 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.150.248] has joined #lisp 07:25:28 -!- sciendan [n=dan@c-69-250-212-245.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:25:56 ASau [n=user@host29-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:30:03 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has left #lisp 07:30:20 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:30:55 -!- adamvh [n=adamvh@c-76-125-233-103.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 07:30:59 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-124-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:20 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-140-71.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:31:28 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:32:43 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-177.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:34:16 nunb [i=d98568e1@gateway/web/freenode/x-c3ecee12df5adb03] has joined #lisp 07:34:38 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:40:28 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [] 07:41:21 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 07:43:50 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:44:22 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 07:47:36 Good morning. 07:49:02 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 07:49:21 hi ilitirit 07:49:24 mega1 [n=mega@pool-011b3.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:53:14 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.150.248] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:55:17 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:57:13 hi huangjs, how are your bindings for blas coming along? 07:59:36 konr: yes, FWIW, postgresl is significantly better than mysql 08:00:23 *drewc* was scrolled back and didn't realize konr spoke hours ago 08:00:26 my bad! 08:00:29 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:00:41 Pfft! At least we (from France) may start to work for ourselves. Till know (in the year), it was just to pay taxes... 08:01:08 haha no problem 08:01:49 hmmm, why is mysql so widely used in web applications? 08:02:33 i think the same php is; because "it's there already" 08:03:42 ilitirit: working on it. beautifying the macros and testing it on win32. 08:03:45 "..for the same reason php is.." 08:03:46 konr: because shit attracts lots of flies. 08:04:15 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:05:02 LostMonarch [n=roby@host150-246-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:05:24 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-36-37.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:05:32 -!- nunb [i=d98568e1@gateway/web/freenode/x-c3ecee12df5adb03] has quit ["Page closed"] 08:05:49 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host150-246-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:06:18 prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 08:06:25 Postgres traditionally (circa 2000) had performance issues for many insert/deletes, which is a typical usage pattern for a web app 08:06:33 it is true that postgresql is generally better than mysql, but the vacuuming stuff was quite confusing until the newer releases fixed it 08:06:54 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 08:06:57 easyE, you generally could solve it by wrapping them in transactions 08:07:08 But Postgres has always had superior documentation. 08:07:21 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:07:22 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 08:08:05 ilirit: my memory is a bit hazy so you may well be right. 08:08:19 postgres was originally written in LISP, interestingly enough 08:08:40 drewc: really? I never knew that! 08:09:09 easyE: true story. LISP was found to be too slow, so they ported to C. 08:09:25 the paper to look for is called 'the implementation of POSTGRES' 08:09:28 or some such 08:09:31 Which Lisp implementation? 08:09:43 Ah, you give a citiation. I'll follow that to find out. 08:09:51 s/citiation/citation/ 08:10:15 LISP implementation... probably LISP 1.5 or a close descendant 08:11:19 -!- rolly1975 [n=rory@5ac03a58.bb.sky.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:11:46 i might be wrong here ... could have been a common lisp 08:12:09 "Our feeling is that the use of LISP has been a terrible mistake for several reasons." 08:12:10 heh 08:12:23 And remember that MySQL started off not being ANSI (no transactions, no stored procedure), so it had a natural performance advantage for simple key/value type data access, which is also typical for a web app. 08:12:38 4MB of memory was "a gigantic footprint" back then (: 08:12:52 And when RAM became real cheap, keeping everything in it for fast lookup was easy. 08:12:55 bas3 [n=bas3@80.68.88.232] has joined #lisp 08:13:12 easyE: mysql is find if you don't want a relational database... 08:13:16 does anyone know which packages in fedora core supply haskell and scheme? 08:13:23 then again, so is bdb, and bdb is faster ;) 08:13:36 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:13:41 Yeah, I always used Sleepycat too! 08:13:43 bas3: you might want to ask in #fedora, #scheme or #haskell 08:14:38 drewc: why? haskell and scheme are both forms of lisp 08:14:46 this isn't #commonlisp 08:14:49 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.199] has joined #lisp 08:14:50 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:15:01 bas3: this is 08:15:11 -!- Guest34643 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 08:15:19 bas3: this is a channel about common lisp. 08:15:28 bas3: look at the topic 08:15:32 well it should be called #commonlisp 08:15:36 bas3: if you want to talk about haskell, scheme or fedora, there are channels for that. 08:15:42 but it's not. deal with it please. 08:15:49 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o drewc 08:15:58 i dont. i just want to know the package names 08:16:16 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:16:18 nunb [i=d98568e1@gateway/web/freenode/x-4da77a1107c2d017] has joined #lisp 08:16:48 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has been kicked from #lisp 08:17:05 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o drewc 08:17:48 yeah! shutup about scheme/haskell, lets go back to postgres talk.. 08:17:52 -!- gz [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:17:54 :D 08:18:14 haskell was originally written in lisp as well :) 08:18:41 and scheme, of course, used to be a lisp too. 08:18:43 bas3: you're right, they're both forms of lisp, so you should better learn lisp. 08:19:32 matimago: i kicked bas3 .. possibly prematurely, but it was the quick way. 08:20:44 i heard the *thump* from here 08:20:46 there are pages and pages of oot chat on this chan, but 3 lines about non-common lisp, and you're out 08:23:02 It keeps people on their toes. 08:23:43 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 08:23:50 kuwabara1: my scrollback looks on topic enough. regardless, arguing with the denizens of the channel about what is on topic is not on topic. 08:24:26 I'm one of the more easy-going ops ;) 08:26:53 :-) 08:28:46 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:31:23 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:33:39 tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 08:33:55 free_thinker [n=willijar@134.151.144.246] has joined #lisp 08:34:56 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:35:47 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:44:27 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-186-101.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:46:41 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:47:10 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:04 "So why should you choose cl-mysql over clsql? Well, the answer is youd need a few good reasons to do that because CLSQL probably ..." 08:54:06 lol 08:55:29 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:00:19 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-180-210.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:02:44 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 09:05:15 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-13309.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 09:07:06 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 09:09:30 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:15:41 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 09:15:42 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:17:48 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:19:21 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 09:24:15 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 09:29:12 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-67.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 09:34:40 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:42:46 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 09:45:44 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:48:18 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:49:16 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:50:51 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 09:51:40 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:52:27 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:54:16 drewc: anyways, one kick, one hour and half of silence, and counting... 09:54:37 ssssh .. this is great for concentration :) 09:55:02 *_3b* is waiting on a recompile anyway, no need to concentrate :p 09:55:52 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:55 _3b: Could you successfully leverage SACLA's loop? 09:56:11 <_3b> tcr: that's what prompted the recopmilation :p 09:56:17 <_3b> seem to have broken something while testing it 09:56:24 How long does it take? 09:56:51 <_3b> a few minutes (just finished in fact) 09:57:10 *tcr* dispairs at having the org-mode google tech talking loading up in firefox, and not being able to sound to music simultaneously. I so fucking hate current sound situation on Ubuntu. 09:57:12 *_3b* really needs to rewrite that code at some point 09:57:28 erm listen to music 09:57:34 gz [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 09:58:03 <_3b> yeah, i need to try alternate sound setups at some point, 1sec lag in flash sound effects, and random gaps in music playback is annoying 09:58:35 <_3b> (though i suppose the music gaps could be unexplained network dropouts or something, since i'm playing music from a smb share) 09:59:17 <_3b> now i just need to remember which random files i've added that aren't in the .asd files yet and need compiled by hand 09:59:35 -!- yoonkn [n=yoonkn@210.108.170.70] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:59:58 i switched to Debian testing because of the crummy sound servers (or whatever...) introduced in Ubuntu, tcr .. the extra hassle wrt. getting some drivers (firmware...) up on Debian seems to have been worth it; less "weird stuff" going on :P 10:01:06 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 10:01:39 It usually works smoothly, just not in combination with Flash 10:01:52 which seems to want to lock up the soundcard just for itself 10:02:07 -!- keithr [n=user@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:02:09 keithr [n=user@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:50 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:02:54 *_3b* hasn't noticed that, but could be something i fixed in th epast 10:03:03 -!- ennen [n=nn@studio25.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:03:08 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 10:03:14 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:03:14 *_3b* uses 64 bit flash also, no idea if that matters 10:03:15 ennen [n=nn@studio25.org] has joined #lisp 10:03:32 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 10:04:34 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:04:46 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 10:04:59 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 10:05:03 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-207-110.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:05:14 Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-207-110.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:55 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #lisp 10:07:03 eno___ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-148-27.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:07 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 10:10:19 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:11:02 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:15:12 hi. is there a portable way to load a lisp file only if the source is newer than the fasl? 10:15:53 check the file-write-date of both source and fasl using the fancy > operator and the IF special form? 10:15:53 dto: file-write-date might help there. 10:16:02 ah 10:16:03 ! 10:16:04 :) 10:16:18 thank you folks 10:16:30 dto: Yes, take a look at swank::compile-file-if-needed which does exactly that 10:17:04 of course, it's not portable: if you have a filesystem which doesn't update mtimes, then it'll go wrong 10:17:21 i'll make it possible to disable it, in that case. 10:17:30 would you like to see how my game engine is progressing? 10:17:58 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:18:13 tcr, Xach: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeZ2uCG8Mk0 10:18:35 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:19:08 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F7F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:20:25 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 10:21:28 dto: looks like youtube died 10:21:34 :( 10:21:35 your video isnt loading 10:21:41 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 10:21:45 er 10:21:48 your other ones do 10:21:49 though 10:22:00 wfm 10:22:03 cp2: hmm. 10:22:05 wfm 10:22:18 btw i recommend clicking the HD button, then going fullscreen 10:22:24 the video has tiny objects 10:22:42 whoops, ff crashed when i put it in fullscreen =P 10:23:34 sucks! 10:23:36 sorry 10:23:37 it loads in hd but i cant go to fullscreen 10:23:39 dto: you voice sounds very pleasant 10:23:41 this is viewable though 10:23:43 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:23:58 tcr: :) 10:25:00 looks pretty nice 10:25:26 i can't wait to flesh it out more. 10:25:48 in the newest video there's a star map with 2 visitable locations (the one you see now is renamed as "Zeta Base Ruins" as well as an open shooter level 10:25:49 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:27:45 anyway i'm just trying to make better lisp porn :) 10:28:04 hot naked lambdas! 10:28:07 :) 10:28:10 cool stuff!, dto 10:28:25 is sbcl skipping the release this month? 10:28:58 looks like we'll release _this_ month :-) 10:29:05 we skipped last month 10:29:29 mstevens: click here to see real sexpressions NOW 10:29:50 lnostdal: i love lisp. i always wanted to make a game, but nothing much happened until after i spent some time with lisp 10:29:57 but when? 10:30:17 dunno :-/ 10:33:10 -!- eno___ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-148-27.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:35:31 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 10:35:59 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest74818 10:39:28 <_3b> tcr: sacla LOOP seems to be working :) 10:40:18 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 10:42:13 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:42:32 How's your TAGBODY implementation? 10:42:56 minion: sacla? 10:42:58 sacla: A partial (as of 2004) Common Lisp implementation written in Common Lisp by Yuji Minejima, under a BSD style license. http://www.cliki.net/sacla 10:43:00 <_3b> works according to spec as far as i know (could be misremembering though) 10:43:25 Yeah I mean does boil down to GOTOs when possible? 10:44:04 <_3b> compiles directly to asm/bytecode 10:45:24 <_3b> might still be some inefficiencies from unsused non-local-exit support not being compiled out, but otherwise should be good 10:50:34 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 10:52:56 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 10:54:13 <_3b> looks like it is slower than dotimes, probably due to putting the iteration test at the end of the loop 10:54:41 *_3b* needs to figure out if i can detect that and optimize it in general or not 10:55:03 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 10:57:34 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:57:45 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:00:32 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:49 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:02:21 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:02:50 SACLA discontinued? There's SICL! 11:03:09 <_3b> sicl doesn't have working LOOP :( 11:03:14 bummer. 11:03:23 can't use SBCLs or some such? 11:03:50 (maybe I came in a bit late to the discussion...) 11:03:56 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 11:04:06 <_3b> dunno, seem to remember it expanding to sbcl specific code 11:04:12 Ah. 11:05:37 <_3b> hmm, strange... reordering the loop body doesn't seem to affect speed, wonder if i was misdiagnosing it when i thought that was the problem previously 11:06:14 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 11:08:11 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-194.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:49 <_3b> ah, my test wasn't actually doing any work in the dotimes test, that would explain it being faster :p 11:10:14 :-) 11:11:44 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 11:11:54 Have you implemented DISASSEMBLE? 11:12:37 <_3b> not exactly, not really useful since i don't use it interactively 11:12:58 <_3b> i do have a disassembler though 11:13:22 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 11:13:22 <_3b> usually just use the disassembler from flex though 11:19:40 seejay [n=seejay@plexyplanet.org] has joined #lisp 11:19:46 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 11:20:50 cracki [n=cracki@41-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:22:18 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 11:23:24 -!- abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:24:00 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:26:24 -!- gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:27:43 -!- pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 11:28:19 morning 11:28:27 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:28:55 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-177.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:29:02 -!- Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:32:48 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:33:37 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 11:33:44 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:36:47 Jules_ [n=Jules@cp1359485-a.landg1.lb.home.nl] has joined #lisp 11:37:52 rlb3 [n=rlb@70-138-117-197.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:28 -!- rlb3 [n=rlb@70-138-117-197.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:39:41 elias`_ [n=c@host86-134-4-190.range86-134.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:40:49 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:41:04 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 11:41:07 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@204.194.78.3] has joined #lisp 11:41:10 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-165.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:41:24 hello 11:43:12 mcspiff [n=user@DC7CB.WPA.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 11:43:58 <_3b> hmm, with-hash-table-iterator returns multiple values, that's no fun :( 11:44:13 <_3b> (or rather the iterator it returns does) 11:44:56 -!- elias`_ [n=c@host86-134-4-190.range86-134.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["leaving"] 11:46:22 -!- Guest74818 is now known as pkhuong 11:47:44 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 11:53:28 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:53:45 quek [n=read_eva@210.253.202.182] has joined #lisp 11:56:48 -!- dto [n=user@98.118.1.212] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:57:26 -!- Jules_ [n=Jules@cp1359485-a.landg1.lb.home.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:57:41 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:00:33 attila_lendvai [n=ati@fw.tigra.hu] has joined #lisp 12:01:14 hi! anyone knows offhand which extra pkg's are needed on latest ubuntu server? seems like some .h files are missing 12:01:55 for what? 12:01:59 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:02:30 openssl-devs at least for cl+ssl, that is quite common 12:03:02 sb-bsd-sockets do not compile 12:03:25 attila_lendvai: install build-essential 12:03:26 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:03:59 nyef [n=nyef@pool-64-222-164-136.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:01 Hello all. 12:04:15 fe[nl]ix: that'll be it i guess, thanks! 12:04:38 hi nyef 12:04:50 morning nyef 12:10:28 oudeis [n=oudeis@IGLD-84-229-154-198.inter.net.il] has joined #lisp 12:10:54 Any of you attending ECLM in Hamburg? 12:10:59 -!- cracki [n=cracki@41-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:59 -!- gz [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:59 -!- rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:59 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:59 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:11:01 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:11:01 -!- erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:11:01 -!- froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:11:01 -!- replaca__ [n=tom@76-191-193-111.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:11:01 -!- kei [n=gueorgui@gmt.su] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:11:01 -!- arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:11:01 -!- Xach [n=xach@207.5.178.18] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:11:01 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:11:01 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:11:01 -!- nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:11:01 -!- kuwabara1 [n=kuwabara@84.14.121.138] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:11:01 kei_ [n=gueorgui@gmt.su] has joined #lisp 12:11:01 hello 12:11:01 erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 12:11:09 djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 12:11:09 nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #lisp 12:11:09 gz [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:11:09 Xach [n=xach@207.5.178.18] has joined #lisp 12:11:12 cracki [n=cracki@134.61.41.183] has joined #lisp 12:11:14 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 12:11:35 kuwabara1 [n=kuwabara@84.14.121.138] has joined #lisp 12:11:47 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 12:11:56 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 12:12:44 slackaholic [i=1000@187.25.157.64] has joined #lisp 12:13:45 fe[nl]ix: hrm, same error: could not grovel for EAI_NODATA... any ideas? this link suggests that it was dropped by an rfc: http://osdir.com/ml/android-platform/2009-04/msg00814.html 12:14:06 -!- slackaholic [i=1000@187.25.157.64] has quit [Client Quit] 12:14:52 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:36 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:16:55 hrm, it's an old sbcl, must have been fixed meanwhile 12:18:48 EAI_NODTA is in /usr/include/netdb.h on ubuntu 9.04, and this is sbcl 1.0.12.2 12:19:01 i guess the groveller is not #include-ing the right files 12:19:16 replaca [n=tom@76-191-193-111.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:19 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:21:23 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 12:22:00 but "netdb.h" is part of the list... hrm, no idea then 12:22:38 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229131079.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:23:47 but it is conditionally defined only in netdb.h, by __USE_GNU 12:24:17 semyon421 [n=semyon@m90-143-183-8.cust.tele2.ru] has joined #lisp 12:24:48 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:52 bah, i give up... i just copy over a compiled one 12:26:11 sellout [n=greg@63.107.91.105] has joined #lisp 12:27:20 adamvh [n=adamvh@76.125.233.103] has joined #lisp 12:27:56 -!- semyon421 [n=semyon@m90-143-183-8.cust.tele2.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 12:28:08 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:28:20 -!- adamvh [n=adamvh@76.125.233.103] has quit [Client Quit] 12:29:09 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 12:29:20 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 12:33:31 Georges` [n=Georges@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:33 ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 12:35:21 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 12:49:47 -!- kei_ is now known as kei 12:50:14 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 12:50:21 -!- mcspiff [n=user@DC7CB.WPA.Dal.Ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:50:23 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@IGLD-84-229-154-198.inter.net.il] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:53:55 -!- Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:56:22 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.177.22] has quit [] 12:59:22 -!- cracki [n=cracki@134.61.41.183] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 12:59:47 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 13:07:14 -!- Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:10:51 -!- anton [n=user@77.70.2.99] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:12:40 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:13:51 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 13:15:34 -!- delYsid [n=user@debian/developer/mlang] has left #lisp 13:16:04 ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:23 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 13:19:39 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@204.194.78.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:20:28 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:24:59 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:25:40 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:25:46 Jasko [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:50 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:29:50 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 13:30:57 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-36-239.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:30:58 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.15] has joined #lisp 13:31:28 oudeis [n=oudeis@192.118.11.120] has joined #lisp 13:32:04 can I specialize a method parameter on more than one class? 13:32:18 something like: (defmethod my-method ((param1 type1 type2) (param2 type3) ...)) 13:33:03 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:14 rstandy: no. 13:33:26 jchicas [n=jchicas@139smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 13:33:38 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@139smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit [Client Quit] 13:33:50 rstandy: you could make a class that has both type1 and type2 as superclasses though. 13:34:21 Xach: mmm ok. I'll figure out a work around 13:34:25 Xach: thank you 13:34:38 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 13:35:56 -!- free_thinker [n=willijar@134.151.144.246] has left #lisp 13:36:46 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:37:06 moghar [n=user@157.185.jawnet.pl] has joined #lisp 13:37:28 mmm I really need to learn how to write macros first :-( 13:37:52 why do you need macros here? 13:38:45 stassats: I'm trying to write a defmethod on steroids which accepets a list of types for a single parameter 13:39:09 yes I konw, there are simpler solutions :-) 13:39:48 stassats: but that one looks cool to me 13:39:54 cracki [n=cracki@41-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:40:06 *stassats* is sceptical about it 13:40:17 stassats: why? 13:42:01 because explicitly defining a new class seems better to me, and if you are doing that too much then perhaps something is wrong 13:45:09 Uhm, I can't decide which approach is better :-) 13:45:57 Would it be better to use a custom method specializer type? 13:46:38 rstandy: what is the semantic of you notation (param1 type1 type2) ? Is it a OR between the types ? 13:46:44 nyef: can you make an example please? I'm just a CLOS newbie 13:47:16 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 13:47:23 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:47:25 kuwabara1: yeah, maybe it would be more general to explicitly specify it just like in slot type specifiers 13:47:34 Nope, sorry. I'm not very knowledgable about CLOS esoterica either. I think that custom method specializers are SBCL-specific, though. 13:47:48 methods are specialized not on types, but on classes 13:47:52 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 13:48:35 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 13:48:42 Mmm... If it's an OR, you might consider using multiple inheritance and mixins. 13:49:10 rstandy: so, you have two classes, which are similar enough to be considered the same in some methods, but not enough to share a superclass ? 13:49:17 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:49:49 nyef: that's what Xach suggested 13:50:09 The reason that they use classes is that class specificity is easy to compute by looking at the superclasses. 13:50:11 Fair enough. 13:50:18 kuwabara1: yeah 13:50:50 Determining which of two types is more specific is ... harder 13:51:05 stassats: It seems to me that in CLoS a class is an object and the type is the symbol representing the class 13:51:22 stassats: just learning, can you correct me if I'm wrong? 13:51:27 that's wrong 13:51:29 segv [n=mb@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:51:31 rstandy: but what kind of operations are you going to apply in the method to the objects, if they don't share a superclass ? 13:51:35 rstandy: That's the error then -- a type is a set of potential objects -- a class is an object that describes the implementation of other objects. 13:51:36 you could fall back to T; (defmethod my-method ((param1 t) (param2 type3) ...)) then use a typecase in the body of that method with (or type1 type2), rstandy 13:53:09 clhs 4.1 13:53:10 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/04_a.htm 13:53:24 Zhivago: uhm I need to think about what you are saying 13:54:08 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 13:55:06 lnostdal: maybe the better solution in my case would be to do an :around method and typecase on the superclass of both of my sublcassess (yes there is already a superclass but it's too generic) 13:55:55 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 13:55:59 Good afternoon! 13:56:56 Welcome back! 13:56:57 keeping it simple would be to make a method for each class, which calls a defun where you put the code. 13:57:31 matimago: Thanks! 13:57:33 flet maybe 13:57:42 ..wrapping both methods 13:57:52 rstandy: Well, consider the types (integer 0 10) and (integer 5 15) -- which of these should be more specific? 13:58:22 plage: I heard they kept the TV loud, to be able to have some private discussions in Vietnam; did you witness that? 13:58:25 lnostdal: yeah whatever works instead of walking up the stairs of the ivory tower 13:58:52 Zhivago: are 0, 10, 5, 15 types at all? 13:59:01 plage: Never heard of anything like that. 13:59:06 er, matimago 13:59:14 (integer ...) is a type specifier 13:59:21 plage: stop being a split personality beach 13:59:25 Perhaps it was a local or temporal idiosyncrasie. 13:59:31 madnificent: ? 13:59:31 it's not the type itself 13:59:33 yeah, you're right 13:59:42 plage: talking to yourself 13:59:51 ah, yes, sorry about that. 13:59:53 madnificent: isn't it on the contrary? We're single personalities, under different nicknames. 14:00:36 matimago: we only have one nickname. However, to be corerct, it is. It wasn't serious though 14:01:08 pjb has two nicknames 14:01:10 matimago: In Cambodia, our tour guide only felt comfortable talking (critically) about politics and the country's history when we were travelling in his car. Certainly not in public spaces, e.g., restaurants. 14:01:17 rstandy: When would you use your proposed specialization strategy? Isn't only usable when you have operators which can operate on both types. For example, how ELT can operate on lists, and vectors. But notice that CL provides a class SEQUENCE for this purpose. 14:01:22 Zhivago: I'm a little confused about your question 14:03:09 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:03:35 rstandy: Which of those is a subtype of the other? 14:03:37 hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.16.9] has joined #lisp 14:03:50 tcr: I think the whole point of methods is that they do dispatch on types, saving from explicitly write dipatch code 14:04:01 They don't dispatch on types. 14:04:19 They dispatch on classes, which correspond to a very small subset of types. 14:04:41 Zhivago: ok I need to understand that difference first 14:04:55 A type is essentially a set of potential objects. 14:05:17 Consider the type (integer 0 10) <- which objects satisfy it? 14:05:34 TDT [i=dthole@dhcp80ff869b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 14:06:58 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:07:07 Zhivago: dunno, I don't know what that list means when viewed as a type 14:07:37 Then read about types in the hyperspec. 14:08:02 yeah I thinks it's what I need 14:08:24 -!- quek [n=read_eva@210.253.202.182] has left #lisp 14:08:31 dto [n=user@98.118.1.212] has joined #lisp 14:09:13 rstandy: I'd say the point of generic functions is to modularize the dispatching. DEFUN + ETYPECASE is still quite common---if you do not want that modularization. 14:11:28 And modularization of dispatching means modularization of behavior; and to modularize behavior, you need to separate your stuff to allow modularized behavior, which, not necessarily, but often leads to object-orientation. 14:14:10 tcr: so in my case I want generic functions but still need the modularization offered by etypecase because I'm not going to declare a superclass of my two classes on which I want to specialize my method 14:14:50 (sorry for my bad english) 14:15:30 etypecase does not offer modularization. everything has to be in one place. 14:16:11 Xach: yes sorry, I was just restate it this way: "the dispatching offered by etypecase" 14:17:32 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 14:17:43 rstandy: What operations do you want on these different-enough-not-to-share-a-common-superclass yet-common-enough-to-share-operations classes? 14:18:28 it seems to me (but I admit it, I'm a newbie) that multiclass specifiers for method parameters would make the multispatch mechanism of CLOS more flexible 14:18:49 Can you provide an actual use case? 14:18:58 tcr: this two classes are weblocks widgets 14:19:06 tcr: so they already share a superclass 14:19:22 But the superclass is not fine-grained enough? 14:19:24 rstandy: What problem are you trying to solve? 14:19:35 I'd like to ask you about CL-USER> command prompt. Before reinstallation I've got CL-USER prompt, now I have " * ". Is there something wrong with my .emacs? Or Is it no difference? 14:19:54 tcr: exactly 14:19:59 mrSpec: put (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf)) into your .emacs 14:20:20 ok, thx :D 14:21:03 Zhivago: my problem is already solved, but I don't understand why this notion of a list of class specifiers for a method parameter seems to be not good 14:21:23 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:22:03 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 14:22:13 Zhivago: and I need to understand it because my need of it comes probably from a bad undesrstanding of CLOS 14:22:26 rstandy: I guess that could be a valid case. I'd probably solve it with MACROLET 14:22:36 Zhivago: so your suggestion to read the hyperspec is right :-) 14:23:01 so I need to... 14:23:04 clhs macrolet 14:23:04 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm 14:23:06 (macrolet ((def (class) `(defmethod foo ((x ,class) ...) ...))) (def widget1) (def widget2))) 14:24:45 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:49 one more thing, Is something I can add to *.fasl file to make it runnable? On my PC I can run it normally ./foo.fasl, but on some PCs I can't. 14:25:16 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 14:25:19 tcr: it seems to me that this macrolet is what I was find when first trying to write a macro to define a defmethod on steroids 14:25:53 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-165.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:22 sorry I meant a "method on steroids" not a "defmethod" 14:30:52 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.199] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:32:18 eno___ [n=eno@70.137.133.228] has joined #lisp 14:32:56 actually you want a defmethod on steroid 14:33:02 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:33:10 -!- eno___ is now known as eno 14:33:20 something that expands to the above macrolet in cases of a (x class1 class2) specializer list 14:33:40 tcr: yeah, and also a good english course :-) 14:33:42 mrSpec: It varies by lisp implementation. I believe there was a recent change to SBCL to allow executable fasls. 14:33:49 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:33:49 but I think if this is the only case, just do the macrolet version 14:34:34 nyef: It also depends on operating system. Wasn't it doing some trick with #!/usr/bin/sbcl --eval? 14:34:35 nyef: there is SBCL 1.0.29 on all PCs 14:34:39 tcr: yeah I think the macrolet is what I need. Now I just need to learn how to write macros :-) 14:34:46 mrSpec: All on Linux? 14:35:08 rstandy: Well, read the appropriate chapter in Practical Common Lisp. It's not hard. 14:35:31 *rstandy* goes to the PCL home page 14:35:33 tcr: yes 14:35:58 erhh sorry brb 14:36:04 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 14:37:26 thank you guys for the help and for the pointers 14:38:33 -!- TDT [i=dthole@dhcp80ff869b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:41:03 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:40 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:44:22 TDT [i=dthole@dhcp80ff869b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 14:44:37 *sigh* tripping the power cable is too easy at this desk. 14:45:33 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-29-2.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 14:46:32 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:10 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:48:31 X-Scale2 [n=email@89.180.155.255] has joined #lisp 14:48:35 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:34 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:53:09 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-165.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:53:47 -!- [df]_ is now known as [df] 14:53:55 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:55:07 is it possible to somehow call the method(-object) returned by FIND-METHOD..? .. maybe there's another way to do this ... 14:55:55 moghar [n=user@157.185.jawnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:56:52 lnostdal: why not just call the generic function? 14:57:43 stassats: seems like that would do something quite different 14:58:13 i'm trying to avoid or control dispatch for a special case here 14:58:40 might be stoodpid, but it's a quick fix .. hm 14:58:46 (funcall (mop:method-function method) ...) 14:59:03 lnostdal: perhaps what you want is to write a method combination? 14:59:08 (then you can CALL-METHOD) 14:59:40 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 14:59:46 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 15:02:51 -!- ASau [n=user@host29-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["ff"] 15:03:25 Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:53 is there a lisp funciton that will translate user to users and vice-versa for english words? 15:04:06 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.177.22] has joined #lisp 15:04:13 with user being the string "user" and users being the strin "users" 15:04:51 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has joined #lisp 15:04:55 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@192.118.11.120] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:05:05 madnificent: there is a format directive that does some of that (in a way) 15:05:14 clhs ~P 15:05:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_chc.htm 15:05:30 you have to know how to form the plural, this is just a shortcut for the if yourself 15:05:34 what about mice? 15:05:39 Heh - P seemed too easy for plural. 15:06:14 stassats: only on the Lisp Machine version (; 15:06:18 madnificent, is English well-specified enough that there is always a one single answer? 15:06:21 stassats: yes, it's not general. use ~[ if you must 15:06:29 thanks stassats, this'll work for now .. yeah, i'll probably have to do something like that in the long run, kpreid .. going to see if this makes sense even at this point by a quick fix/hack first 15:06:38 Fare: probably not, but anything in the range will do, I guess 15:07:00 ideally, it would sport a way to override the default system... 15:07:35 -!- prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:07:46 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-180-228.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:08:58 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:09:39 -!- cracki [n=cracki@41-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:11:02 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 15:15:20 -!- nunb [i=d98568e1@gateway/web/freenode/x-4da77a1107c2d017] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 15:19:12 Adamant [n=Adamant@76.29.188.60] has joined #lisp 15:19:19 Guest52477 [i=18fbe846@gateway/web/freenode/x-653a4b6cd9b9e167] has joined #lisp 15:21:03 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 15:21:13 -!- X-Scale2 is now known as TR2N 15:26:07 jlf`` [n=user@nmd.sbx05975.petalca.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:51 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:02 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:28:37 -!- jlf`` is now known as jlf` 15:29:31 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 15:29:32 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:29:36 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:32:14 moghar [n=user@157.185.jawnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:36:57 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 15:38:08 -!- pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:39:06 ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 15:41:06 -!- Guest52477 [i=18fbe846@gateway/web/freenode/x-653a4b6cd9b9e167] has quit ["Page closed"] 15:45:57 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 15:46:02 -!- bulibuta [n=bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has quit ["leaving"] 15:47:13 Zhivago, stassats: thanks, I now understand the difference between types and classes. And what are type specifiers. 15:47:58 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has left #lisp 15:50:28 oudeis [n=oudeis@192.118.11.120] has joined #lisp 15:51:42 ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 15:54:14 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:54:38 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:56:45 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 15:56:54 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 15:57:10 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:59:16 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:25 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:00:29 -!- jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:02:30 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:51 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit 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17:34:57 -!- ausente is now known as Anac 17:35:17 Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 17:35:19 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 17:37:38 phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 17:40:40 drewc: almost too quiet 17:40:51 You can have the cars outside my window. 17:40:59 drewc: fortunately, ryepup is about the blow the lid off things with an explosive series of lisp-in-the-workplace articles. 17:41:48 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@fw.tigra.hu] has quit ["..."] 17:42:53 hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.16.9] has joined #lisp 17:42:54 I tried doing that. Didn't work out so well. 17:43:01 Maybe the system wasn't crucial enough for business. 17:43:41 You didn't have ryepup's guidelines. 17:44:00 That is quite true. This was about a year ago. Who knows what I could've accomplished had I done it now! 17:44:06 You forgot the important bit, which is not to tell anymore. 17:44:14 er, anyone. 17:44:29 Xach: neat! that will keep me interested for a bit. 17:44:54 drewc, planning on introducing Lisp at wokr? 17:44:56 ;) 17:46:17 tic: my boss would never have it .. he's a real asshole :D 17:46:25 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 17:46:57 for those following the wrong libretto 17:48:20 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:51:18 Hehe. 17:52:36 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:46 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:55:24 rouslan [n=Rouslan@pool-71-255-139-207.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:06 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-005-168.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:35 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-194.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Success] 17:57:55 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-194.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:22 *Maddas* expected a "but I'm self-employed" follow-up :-P 17:58:55 Maddas: everyone already knows that 18:00:05 TheEnd2012 [n=TheEnd20@pool-72-92-214-207.eriepa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:12 wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d817342.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 18:00:16 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["ENOIRONY"] 18:00:33 hiho 18:01:00 -!- rapacity [n=prwg@li30-188.members.linode.com] has quit [" "] 18:01:01 -!- Anac [n=user7994@187.10.22.185] has quit ["eject"] 18:01:28 Anac [n=user7994@187.10.22.185] has joined #lisp 18:01:35 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:01:57 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 18:02:10 I am trying to load/compile some app I wrote some time ago. I used asdf. 18:03:02 It fails saying it cant find the file [...]/asd/package.lisp, but that does not seem to be a reasonable place to look for that file 18:03:11 any ideas what I could have gotten wrong? 18:04:33 you specified the wrong place? 18:04:39 -!- Anac [n=user7994@187.10.22.185] has quit [Client Quit] 18:04:44 post your .asd file 18:04:46 lisppaste: url? 18:04:47 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 18:04:58 dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 18:05:20 ./foo.fasl mrSpec: Use a wrapper script? 18:05:44 pkhuong: Are you here? 18:05:46 binfmt on linux? 18:06:01 Or sbcl --load foo.fasl < data.in ? 18:06:08 (Presuming SBCL here.) 18:06:17 ah --load ok thx 18:06:31 I was trying -load :/ 18:07:56 Fare [n=Fare@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:08:27 wakeup pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83644 18:08:36 :> 18:08:38 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 18:08:52 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 18:08:53 thats the asd stassats 18:08:57 Greetings. 18:09:23 you forgot the "earthlings" 18:09:26 imho 18:09:32 Hello tmh. 18:09:32 but hi anyways tmh :) 18:09:51 wakeup: Wrong reference. I prefer "Greetings users!" 18:09:52 wakeup: does this file live in .../asd/ directory? 18:10:07 Or "Greetings program!" (That's what I actually meant) 18:10:36 stassats: yep 18:10:37 "Greetings, %ART-Q-ARRAY, take me to your leader." -- The effect of too much ZetaLisp. 18:10:40 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:48 wakeup: Greetings is time zone neutral, which is really my motivation. 18:10:52 wakeup: well, here is your problem 18:11:01 Meh. "It's always morning somewhere". 18:11:12 *tmh* ponders using "Salutations!" 18:11:12 wakeup: it will look for files in the same directory as it is 18:11:52 unless? 18:11:52 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:12:03 hmm w8 18:12:45 unless you specify where to look 18:12:54 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has joined #lisp 18:13:12 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:13:42 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:13:54 how do I do that? 18:14:09 -!- hezy [n=hezy@62.56.254.158] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:14:23 wakeup: http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/manual.html#header3-23 notice :module 18:14:40 the dependency (lisp-cgi-utils) also has its asd in ../asd and resides itself in .../source/lisp-cgi-utils/* 18:15:58 minion: lisp-cgi-utils? 18:15:58 lisp-cgi-utils: lisp-cgi-utils is a Lisp project for developing Web applications using the CGI interface. http://www.cliki.net/lisp-cgi-utils 18:16:26 wakeup: perhaps it's a symlink? 18:17:01 it is ... 18:17:32 thank you for helping me remember what I did! 18:17:37 :> 18:18:31 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 18:19:51 Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 18:20:01 Hrm... From the wierd project ideas department: A "bare" PS2 port of SBCL, based on the ps2dev SDK. 18:20:06 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:20:57 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-67.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 18:21:14 how is it different from "bare" anything SBCL port? 18:21:21 hello 18:21:57 stassats: Runs on a video game console. 18:22:24 "bare" as in Movitz bare? 18:22:37 About that, yeah. 18:23:26 What's special about the PS2 that makes it the target? If we're talking bare, why not a generic PC? 18:23:28 doesn't thrill me much, perhaps because i never had a video game console 18:23:40 tmh: Fixed (or nearly fixed) hardware platform. 18:23:50 -!- phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 18:24:14 Ok. 18:24:25 Plus I happen to have a PS2 here actually set up for such things. 18:24:48 nyef: Will you be able to apply "lessons learned" to other platforms? 18:24:55 (It'd be running Linux already if I had a keyboard...) 18:25:02 -!- galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:25:12 Probably. But I doubt I'll bother. 18:25:44 what advantage does a bare sbcl have over a linux kernel that runs sbcl as pid 1? :) 18:26:08 foom: Tighter control over the MMU. 18:26:20 pid 1 ... ouch 18:26:44 nyef: some people have sent patches to the linux kernel for a cheaper gain at that 18:26:50 So, when's the next boston lisp meeting? 18:27:00 e.g. "mark pages for the GC before you evict it from RAM" 18:27:04 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:27:05 nyef: July 27 18:27:14 hm, yeah, mmu tricks are hard to do in linux.. 18:27:15 dcrawford to MC as I will be in France 18:27:19 gotta announce it today 18:27:28 So, a week and a half? Cool. 18:28:05 nyef: will you be in town? 18:28:12 I hope to be. 18:28:21 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:28:59 I might be able to make it to that! 18:29:10 Oh, bugger. Nope. 18:29:26 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.222.75] has joined #lisp 18:29:27 *Xach* will make the Boston LukeGorrie Meeting though 18:29:37 Oh, when's that? 18:30:07 august 7th 18:32:08 happycodemonkey [n=raskolni@147.226.103.1] has joined #lisp 18:32:21 And this is a "LukeGorrie will be in town, any excuse for a party" thing, or is there more to it? 18:32:39 we're meeting up at 6pm at the CBC 18:32:45 not much else to it 18:32:54 Fair enough. 18:34:17 http://twitter.com/lukego has some info 18:34:17 -!- dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 18:34:35 galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:45 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:18 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:35:40 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:27 nyef: ping 18:36:49 fe[nl]ix: pong. 18:39:31 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A32A1.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:39:33 nyef: I've been thinking more about how to write a portable run-program 18:39:38 Xach: which town? Where? When? 18:40:05 ouch, I'll still be flying from France to the US on August 7th :( 18:41:37 nyef: how about this scheme: on OS-thread-less implementations, run-program does its stuff inside without-scheduling and without-gcing 18:41:46 fe[nl]ix: I've not been thinking about how to ignore the problem and hope it goes away. 18:42:00 nyef: I'm afraid I can't do that 18:42:48 nyef: and when OS threads are available, we use a worker thread to serialize calls to waitpid() 18:42:54 Hrm. 18:42:58 Fare: seems like everyone is traveling 18:43:05 bobf_ [n=bob@host86-154-147-20.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:43:15 nyef: at least until waitfd() or equivalent syscalls are available everywhere 18:43:21 benny [n=benny@i577A1ACD.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:43:26 How well does this interact with using run-program to kick off stuff to run in the background and talk over pipes? 18:44:12 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:44:32 milanj [n=milan@93.86.214.162] has joined #lisp 18:44:34 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@208.80.66.30] has joined #lisp 18:45:02 I forget, was there a reason that we couldn't just use a signalfd or emulation thereof? 18:45:45 Indeed: even if sbcl doesn't support threads on a given OS, using a C thread to emulate signalfd should still be entirely feasible. 18:45:47 nyef: yes, I should dig that up. I can't remember what was the problem 18:46:32 foom: that would require writing C. unacceptable 18:46:34 fe[nl]ix, YES for a portable run-program -- that handles arbitrary I/O redirection 18:47:11 fe[nl]ix, and that does the waitpid as part of its event-loop, as triggered by a sigfd and/or emulated such (through a trivial sig handler) 18:47:13 -!- anton` [n=user@77.70.2.99] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:47:21 btw, has anyone had trouble using run-program to read data from the program's stdout? 18:47:30 I tried that and it seemed to segfault sbcl 18:47:35 but maybe I was just doing it wrong. :) 18:47:35 a signalfd can be simulated by a sig handler -- just have it write to the fd 18:47:50 writing to a pipe is allowed in a signal handler, isn't it? 18:47:55 foom: what program? 18:47:58 Fare: yes 18:48:06 serichsen: awk 18:48:36 Everyone embeds awk programs into their lisp code, right? So I don't see how people didn't run into this before. :) 18:48:50 nyef: it should have no ill interactions with async piping to the program as long as the work of doing fork+exec and waitpid is serialized into only one thread 18:49:57 fe[nl]ix, uh? 18:50:19 nyef: the act of starting a new program would require (conceptually) sending a message to the executor thread, which would answer with a PROCESS instance or an error 18:53:20 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.15] has quit ["Leaving..."] 18:53:25 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-101-90.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:53:47 cemerick [n=la_mer@75-147-38-122-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:57 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75-147-38-122-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 18:54:30 Fare: what is it that perplexes you ? 18:55:00 -!- lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-0-24.dynamic.amis.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:58:06 HG` [n=wells@xdslfm050.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:58:40 why need a special thread at all? 18:58:43 foom: did it crash with any awk output? did you try other external programs, e.g. ls? 18:59:06 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:59:10 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 18:59:44 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-75-52.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:00:26 serichsen: no, it crashed with a null pointer dereference, and only when there was lots of data. 19:02:02 Fare: "POSIX.1-2001 specifies that if the disposition of SIGCHLD is set to SIG_IGN - 19:02:29 then ... call to wait() or waitpid() will block until all children have terminated" 19:03:25 stassats: time for a simple slime hack? 19:03:45 tcr: maybe 19:03:46 Fare: basically, in a multithreading program, using SIGCHLD is unreliable(and it would risk interfering with the host implementation) 19:04:00 Fare: but *not* using SIGCHLD breaks waitpid() 19:04:25 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.16.9] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:04:44 wait, why is SIGCHLD unreliable in a multithreaded program? 19:05:11 foom: perhaps I haven't tried with big enough piles of data. You bound the process-output to a stream, right? 19:05:21 serichsen: yeah. the input too 19:05:33 stassats: Make S-> go to the real end of an inspector page, i.e. fetch everything. Currently, M-> does that in an SLDB buffer, but I think it should be an extra key binding. (Also change M-> in sldb to be S->) 19:06:00 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:06:23 That's Shift->, not Super-> 19:07:05 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:07:20 just > then? 19:07:35 Oh yeah maybe that 19:07:48 Actually that's what I mean 19:08:01 because it's shift + the <> key 19:08:21 ok, i'll look at it after a movie 19:08:27 Thanks! 19:08:54 fe[nl]ix, what about a SIGCHLD handler that emulates a signalfd? how is that unreliable? 19:10:15 there's a "return now" flag to waitpid 19:10:16 Fare: signals are coalesced, and that is not good 19:10:22 uh? 19:10:27 how are they coalesced? 19:10:34 Fare: by sending you only one 19:10:38 froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has joined #lisp 19:10:41 that doesn't make it unreliable, though 19:10:50 that just means you need to call waitpid on every pid you're looking for, in a loop 19:11:04 right. Does a signalfd done by the kernel guarantee non-coalescing? 19:11:08 nope 19:11:13 ouch. 19:11:19 the signal doesn't contain information about what pid finished 19:11:27 the field named temptingly notwithstanding 19:12:02 foom: so basically using SIGCHLD is not good because signals are coalesced, but masking SIGCHLD turns waitpid() into wait() 19:12:05 *Fare* would have hoped that at least a kernel-given signalfd would have avoided the coalescing problem. Sigh. 19:12:14 fe[nl]ix: uh...what? 19:12:20 fe[nl]ix: signals being coalesced isn't a problem 19:12:25 fe[nl]ix, even with the "return now" flag? 19:12:51 WNOHANG 19:12:54 fe[nl]ix: when you get SIGCHLD, you do (loop for pid in pids-im-interested-in do (waitpid pid)) 19:12:54 What's wrong with having SIGCHLD blocked inside a SIGCHLD handler and calling waitpid with WNOHANG in a loop until no more pids are returned? 19:13:11 Riastradh: exactly. 19:13:27 -!- Posterdati [n=tapioca@host70-226-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:13:59 Posterdati [n=tapioca@host111-214-dynamic.22-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:14:34 kmels [n=kmels@97.160.216.201.static.intelnet.net.gt] has joined #lisp 19:14:34 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 19:15:27 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-29-2.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:16:19 This doesn't even require any Linuxisms such as signalfd or BSDisms such as kqueue to accomplish safely. 19:16:39 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 19:17:19 if you have lots of subprocesses dying it can make things a bit slower than you'd like, but it's 100% reliable 19:17:48 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-9-184.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 19:18:08 How much slower can it be than transferring to kernel space to replicate virtual memory maps when forking in the first place? 19:18:16 ahoy 19:18:30 hi levy 19:18:38 Riastradh: well, that wouldn't be so slow if sbcl didn't make 500000000 vm maps. :) 19:18:49 Point... 19:18:58 fe[nl]ix, how is it going? 19:19:00 rapacity [n=prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #lisp 19:19:07 after the dining philosopher problem, the dying process problem 19:19:12 levy: good :) 19:19:13 I wonder who has native implementations of posix_spawn these days. 19:19:39 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 19:20:06 actually, I believe newer linux kernels do a lazy copy of the vm map 19:20:10 so you want to do the waitpid in the signal handler itself? 19:20:10 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit [Client Quit] 19:20:15 Fare: yeah 19:20:17 Sure, Fare. 19:20:31 (at least, I think that patch got merged, not 100% sure) 19:20:44 i'm still partial evaling 19:20:56 have a simple working generic function example 19:20:56 so in new enough kernels, that sbcl has so many mappings won't actually slow down fork/exec. 19:21:25 asksol [n=ask@247.243.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:21:45 foom: how new is new? 19:21:54 in newer kernels, ccl seems to bork :( 19:22:04 Fare: really new 19:22:12 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 19:22:25 Fare: like 2.6.28-30 or so, I don't know whether or when it actually landed tho. :) 19:22:28 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:22:34 Fare: really? 19:22:54 sellout: at least, ccl as used by qres 19:23:24 Fare: I don't have to worry about that one ;) 19:23:33 some threading issue, I believe 19:24:55 -!- Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:25:09 So does SBCL *not* use waitpid safely or something? 19:25:30 Riastradh, I don't know what it does, but its code is a big mess 19:25:38 Riastradh, I'd rather have a portable thing 19:25:50 that also allows arbitrary fd redirection 19:26:35 who uses ccl anyways? :p 19:29:57 Hmm. In src/code/run-program.lisp, GET-PROCESSES-STATUS-CHANGES is called with SIGCHLD not blocked, so it looks to me as though it could deadlock. 19:30:53 Unless the mutex is recursive. 19:31:07 The mutex for the active processes list, that is. 19:31:43 Oh, no, CALL-WITH-SYSTEM-MUTEX disables interrupts. 19:32:20 anybody knows pkhuong's generic method sealing for SBCL? 19:32:50 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:59 So what's wrong with what SBCL is currently doing? 19:33:09 i don't get how it supposed to handle call-next-method 19:34:44 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:36:51 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 19:36:52 -!- vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@79.134.22.153] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:36:56 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:37:04 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 19:37:08 Is it just that the code is SBCL-specific, and not `portable', whatever that means exactly? Of course, anything concerning how Lisp and C/Unix interact is not `portable' enough to be implemented using only what one finds in ANSI CL... 19:37:11 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-fc28593133612fda] has joined #lisp 19:37:56 mdavid [n=mdavid@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:38:53 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:24 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:39:48 Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:41:37 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:42:37 Riastradh, I was thinking of using CFFI/Osicat/IOLib 19:42:55 the idea being, write it once per OS, not once per OS*Implementation 19:43:51 sbcl's run-program is crazily complex, with two levels of mutexing 19:47:32 bughunter2 [n=bughunte@unaffiliated/bughunter2] has joined #lisp 19:47:43 I tried to use fork and execl., but fork won't fork. 19:47:56 younder, uh? 19:48:24 That is the parent side of the fork run's, but pid is never 0 so the child process vever get's created. 19:48:34 It's driving me crazy.. 19:50:15 huh, what's with sbcl with-output-to-string 19:51:11 milanj: i am a happy user. what do you think might be with it? 19:51:12 reading 31k lines file and writing to string taking 500sec in sbcl and 0.2sec in ccl 19:51:34 milanj: how are you writing it to the string? 19:51:36 Hereis the code: http://paste.lisp.org/+1SJL. 19:51:37 milanj: make sure to bind *print-pretty* to nil 19:51:49 is that funny newline bug still there? 19:52:18 CCL binds *print-pretty* to NIL by default, SBCL to T 19:52:25 Xach: princ 19:52:28 the one where pretty-printing to a string-stream is O(n^2) to the length of the longest line printed 19:53:31 read-line + princ would certainly suggest that that's the issue, since you're writing all of that data into one huge line 19:54:02 yes 19:54:06 damn, thanks :) 19:54:43 i remember in hyperspec that princ binds some specials to nil 19:54:59 no *print-pretty* though 19:55:03 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 19:56:21 younder: fork works here 19:57:06 milanj: What are you printing anyway? Strings? 19:57:16 tcr,yes 19:57:30 milanj: Than I'd suggest to use write-string rather than princ 19:57:52 jsnell, whereas by a dichomoty it could be only O(n log n) ? 19:57:58 Fare: did you try running my code? 19:58:05 younder, where? 19:58:10 Hereis the code: http://paste.lisp.org/+1SJL. 19:58:11 tcr, noted 20:00:53 Fare: it should be independent of the maximum line length, and depend only on the total output size 20:01:45 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:04:21 Fare, OK, so write similar code in C (with POSIX mutexes) and wrap that in CFFI. All you need to do is to store a table from pids to waitpid status records. 20:04:49 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:05:35 Riastradh, works, though it's an ugly solution 20:05:50 Ugly compared to what? 20:06:03 being able to do all the redirection, etc., in Lisp 20:06:15 maybe the solution is to have some Lisp code write the C code. 20:06:26 This has nothing to do with redirection. 20:06:55 you mean, write only the process-management part in C, the redirection part in Lisp? 20:07:07 that might require callbacks from C to Lisp... 20:07:20 or maybe not 20:07:42 Well, write a C function that calls fork, close and dup, and then exec; and in the parent updates the process table. 20:08:37 Riastradh, I don't want dup and exec -- I want something programmable, specified by the user 20:09:05 OK, so just wrap fork, but be prepared for stuff to explode when you do that... 20:09:11 or course you could hand down to C a "program" that it'd interpret 20:09:19 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslfm050.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:09:22 in an appropriate DSL 20:09:23 ugh 20:09:33 (That is, wrap fork with something that updates the process table.) 20:10:03 sb-posix:fork does that 20:10:04 Riastradh, what kind of explosion? 20:10:16 younder, does what? 20:10:31 sorry, not thinking straingth 20:10:46 Fare, for example, if there are userland Lisp threads, they will continue running in the child process. 20:11:07 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 20:11:36 Riastradh, obviously, this code has to be run deep enough in your abstraction stack that your green thread library is aware of it 20:11:44 OK. 20:11:49 which is one more reason to make it something reasonably portable 20:12:05 All calls in sb-posix do a define-call which ends up calling sb-sys:find-foreign-symbol-address 20:12:09 so that whoever wants to write a green thread library can trust it to be there 20:12:54 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 20:13:13 danlei [n=user@pD9E2DA72.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:46 -!- TheEnd2012 [n=TheEnd20@pool-72-92-214-207.eriepa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Segmentation Fault"] 20:16:39 -!- kmels [n=kmels@97.160.216.201.static.intelnet.net.gt] has quit [] 20:17:06 hmm even a (when (zerop (sb-posix:fork)) (execl "/usr/bin/xrem" nil)) doesn't work.. 20:17:20 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:17:27 s/xrem/xterm/ 20:18:11 younder: what about a (progn (format t "~A~%" (sb-posix:fork)) (finish-output) (sb-ext:quit))) ? 20:18:57 hello & good evening ;) 20:18:59 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@208.80.66.30] has quit [] 20:19:27 younder, it works for me 20:19:30 Fare: 30446 20:19:30 ; Evaluation aborted. 20:21:28 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2DA72.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:21:46 I also get fork to return the child pid. It is just that the child should see pid as 0. and it doesn't 20:23:04 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@192.118.11.120] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:25:13 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:25:52 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:26:13 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:27:00 joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 20:28:19 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 20:28:43 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:30:18 rouslan [n=Rouslan@pool-71-255-139-207.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:07 -!- sellout [n=greg@63.107.91.105] has quit [] 20:34:42 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:34:50 tcr: done with ">" 20:35:28 what does it see? 20:35:39 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:37:32 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:38:01 stassats: cool 20:41:48 -!- Fare [n=Fare@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:42:51 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 20:42:54 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:43:26 -!- happycodemonkey [n=raskolni@147.226.103.1] has quit ["leaving"] 20:43:47 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 20:49:32 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 20:49:34 Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:10 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:54:45 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 20:55:21 -!- pjbw [i=55a93f19@gateway/web/freenode/x-c310938fd17009f6] has quit [] 20:56:55 -!- younder [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:57:11 younder [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:57:55 ok, i'm confused. i'm trying to dynamically create a postmodern object from a list of fields, and then create an object passing values to the init... and somewhere i'm messing up. I'm trying to put together a paste, though i'll take generic recommendations too. 20:58:36 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-152-231.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:59:11 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:03:25 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:05:10 -!- Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:06:18 Demosthenex: an object, or a class? 21:06:50 Xach: i'm hacking together the class def inheriting the postmodern object, as in their example 21:06:54 it creates the table 21:07:15 i'm workign thru abstracting a self-contained example into a separate file 21:09:31 Jules_ [n=Jules@cp1359485-a.landg1.lb.home.nl] has joined #lisp 21:09:48 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-71-139-210-181.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:20 only reason i spoke up is that someone might say "stop reinventing the wheel, use lib X to integrate regexp and sql" 21:11:31 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-87-20.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:11:31 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-87-20.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 21:12:52 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-186-101.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:13:05 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.177.22] has joined #lisp 21:13:15 Demosthenex: IIRC, cl-sql creates the classes automatically from the tables. 21:13:19 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:14:17 Or perhaps it was pg. 21:14:27 i'm doing the opposite. 21:14:27 Demosthenex: check out drewc's relational-objects-for-lisp 21:14:43 i've got a regexp that captures data (or several) that is the basis for my tables. 21:15:00 so i'm trying to create the object/table from a named capture regexp, and then start making objects from the data 21:15:13 Demosthenex: then it's rather easy. You have two choice, simple or simplissime. 21:15:15 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:15:41 Demosthenex: simple: you use the MOP to get information about the class, and generate the corresponding SQL table. 21:16:52 Demosthenex: simplissime: you write a defclass macro accepting the same syntax as cl:defclass, but instead it would write corresponding SQL table. To use it, you load the file containing your defclass in a package where your defclass is interned instead of cl:defclass. 21:17:00 Fade: url? google's not cooperating 21:17:26 pjb: i'm more than halfway there, i'm still creating a sample 21:17:36 anonymizing commercial code :P 21:17:52 but, if it makes a handy reference for using regexp named capture with cl-ppcre, then i'm happy 21:18:13 Demosthenex: google is quite cooperating. Have you tried without the dashes? 21:18:29 pjb: of course, you will probably have to provide a way to hint at the desired types 21:18:38 and indexes 21:18:43 rsynnott: defclass slots have types. 21:18:55 pjb: lisp types, though 21:18:59 Demosthenex: I don't see where you'd need regexp to generate SQL... 21:19:06 rsynnott: of course, you have to map them. 21:19:19 whereas sql has its own types which don't necessarily correspond well to lisp types 21:19:26 That's the principle of mapping a defclass into a create table... 21:19:55 That's a trivial exercise left to the reader! 21:22:44 Demosthenex: http://common-lisp.net/project/lisp-on-lines/repo/relational-objects-for-lisp 21:23:01 there's a rough tutorial here: http://www.deepsky.com/~fade/roflcopter 21:25:10 cool. 21:25:18 yeah, i'm defaulting everything to string for now 21:25:29 i may later create a definition per type and override, but for now string works 21:32:10 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 21:32:51 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:35:21 Demosthenex: notice that sqlite is like lisp: the type of the cell is independent of that of the column. Depending on what is stored in the cell, you get a value of a different type. (of course, for the C API, there are functions to convert types (ie. read a string as an integer, or an integer as a string). 21:35:45 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:35:55 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229131079.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 21:36:00 Demosthenex: anyways, for a statically sql database, you could indeed just print readably your values and store everything in varchars. 21:36:15 Then read back the varchars to get the actual lisp value. 21:36:47 (prin1-to-string "Hello") --> "\"Hello\"" 21:37:03 (read-from-string "\"Hello\"") --> "Hello" ; and so on. 21:38:00 levy pasted "Partial evaling allocate-instance" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83659 21:40:19 levy annotated #83659 "printed result ;)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83659#1 21:40:25 eh, somewhat better 21:40:55 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 21:47:50 bgs101 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:48:08 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:48:12 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-238-188.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:48:20 -!- bgs101 is now known as bgs100 21:50:04 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:50:13 any comments on that? 21:53:27 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.214.162] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:54:20 levy annotated #83659 "somewhat more" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83659#2 21:55:05 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-13309.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:55:17 -!- younder [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 21:56:16 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:01:02 younder [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 22:02:47 -!- segv [n=mb@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 22:03:12 -!- TDT [i=dthole@dhcp80ff869b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:03:20 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:06:08 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-36-239.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:07:57 How does your partial evaluator represent the code? 22:07:58 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-9-184.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 22:10:05 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:10:25 piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:30 oudeis [n=oudeis@77.127.123.56] has joined #lisp 22:11:51 -!- mdavid [n=mdavid@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:12:19 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:12:31 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:13:10 _blahdeblah_ [i=43b71640@gateway/web/freenode/x-522cc99bf79702d5] has joined #lisp 22:13:46 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:13:52 -!- _blahdeblah_ [i=43b71640@gateway/web/freenode/x-522cc99bf79702d5] has quit [Client Quit] 22:16:15 http://paste.lisp.org/display/83660 22:16:23 ok, so here's what i've got so far as a sample. 22:16:27 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@77.127.123.56] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:17:07 i'm having a fit getting the first macro to compile, but i think the relative complexity is fairly high given my limited experience 22:19:51 It's not idiomatically indented and hence difficult to read. 22:20:37 i'm noticing that there are tabs! :P 22:20:45 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 22:21:10 Do you use Emacs? 22:21:40 Put (setq indent-tabs-mode nil) into your .emacs if that's the case 22:21:43 http://paste.lisp.org/display/83660#1 22:21:57 now with more M-x untabify goodness 22:22:13 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:19 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:22:31 funny, i already have that in my .emacs 22:22:41 i'll have to look into that further later 22:22:43 oudeis [n=oudeis@77.127.123.56] has joined #lisp 22:23:32 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:23:44 djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 22:23:56 I think it has to be "setq-default" 22:24:05 You have to wrap the (require ) and (asdf:) forms into (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) ..) if you want the whole file to be compilable 22:24:27 serichsen: good call 22:24:52 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:25:12 updated ;] 22:25:43 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:25:48 i tried to put in long winded comments, given that this is a specific use case with regexp's and named capture with cl-ppcre 22:26:11 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest88925 22:26:12 Demosthenex: updated the code, or updated the .emacs? 22:26:31 my .emacs 22:26:37 the code has already been untabbed in #1 22:26:43 #2 was a repaste 22:27:03 i appreciate the extra eyes, i'm still clawing my way up the learning curve 22:27:18 I thought you might have meant the eval-when 22:27:28 and yes, i know the user/pw for the db was pasted :P good thing its a local test db ;] 22:27:45 i can add that if you like 22:28:19 http://paste.lisp.org/display/83660#3 22:28:39 thought you'll likely have to comment out the connect line if you run it locally 22:30:34 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.199] has joined #lisp 22:32:33 -!- Jules_ [n=Jules@cp1359485-a.landg1.lb.home.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 22:33:46 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@77.127.123.56] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:36:50 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17EB93.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:30 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:37:56 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 22:38:16 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:41:32 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-36-239.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:41:53 -!- bobf_ [n=bob@host86-154-147-20.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:42:20 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:42:36 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:42:52 -!- Guest88925 is now known as pkhuong 22:43:06 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:43:17 tcr: ping 22:43:26 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:43:56 pkhuong: Yeah? 22:44:21 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:44:45 I'm just a couple hours late on your ping (: 22:46:37 seems to have timed out already... 22:46:55 Uh I totally forgot whatever it might have been 22:48:04 Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:48:05 -!- saikat_ is now known as saikat2 22:50:06 pkhuong: I updated swank-sbcl-exts to show the arglist of instructions properly 22:50:19 (filtering away the implicit segment and vop argument) 22:50:28 minion: memo for levy: connectivity isn't very hot these days. Your best bet is to send me an email (pvk@pvk.ca) if I'm not immediately available. 22:50:28 Remembered. I'll tell levy when he/she/it next speaks. 22:50:33 -!- Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:50:39 tcr: thanks (: 22:55:11 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-179.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:58:44 -!- saikat2 [n=saikat@adsl-71-139-210-181.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:59:59 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-179.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:33 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:01:27 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-71-139-210-181.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:22 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 23:07:42 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:10:04 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 23:10:36 I've looked at the HyperSpec, but I cannot figure out what the doc-type parameter to (documentation) is supposed to be 23:12:32 synic: a symbol designating the kind of documentation you want. 23:12:57 (values (documentation 'x 'variable) (documentation 'x 'function)) 23:13:13 There are more, and you can set custom documentation. 23:13:28 ok 23:14:17 Any def that takes a documentation string will have a corresponding ' documentation type. 23:14:24 bhyde [n=Adium@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:25 (approximatively). 23:15:35 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:16:05 Pegazus [n=gawgaw@host250.190-224-109.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 23:17:05 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:21:42 adamvh [n=adamvh@c-76-125-233-103.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:14 can you give a class a documentation string? 23:22:41 Hey while googling I saw a few references to something called SciCL 23:23:10 does anyone know whether that is an in-house thing that siginf 23:23:16 just wanted to brag about 23:23:24 or if it's actually possible to get a hold of it? 23:25:01 synic: the clhs has a pretty complete list of available doctypes for each kind of object: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/f_docume.htm#documentation 23:25:11 thanks 23:25:51 adamvh: I'd guess that scieneer CL is meant 23:26:25 serichsen: oh, I mean, if you want to give a class documentation, where do you define it? 23:26:29 synic, examples http://www.google.com/codesearch/p?hl=en&sa=N&cd=11&ct=rc#Qnn07tS7418/~craig/curl/tim.lisp&q=defclass%20:documentation 23:26:37 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.199] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:27:02 ah, thanks :) 23:27:59 rgz [n=rogue@unaffiliated/rgz] has joined #lisp 23:28:09 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@208.80.66.30] has joined #lisp 23:28:51 -!- rgz [n=rogue@unaffiliated/rgz] has quit ["leaving"] 23:31:46 ok, one more question. 23:31:55 #' is to function as ? is to class 23:32:00 what is the ? 23:33:31 synic: find-class 23:33:43 ok 23:34:53 thanks 23:36:20 pjb pasted "class doc" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83665 23:39:22 synic pasted "the above didn't work for me" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83666 23:39:46 can you import a symbol from a package as a different symbol? 23:40:03 sykopomp: no. 23:40:03 (from foo import bar as baz, in python terms)? 23:40:12 pkhuong: thanks. 23:40:27 pjb: is that implementation specific? 23:41:30 (documentation (find-class 'a) 'type) works 23:41:32 'class doesn't 23:42:39 (this is sbcl) 23:48:16 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:50:43 synic: yes, it's probably implementation specific. No implementation is required to keep documentation strings. 23:51:21 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 23:51:48 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 23:52:02 -!- adamvh [n=adamvh@c-76-125-233-103.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:52:31 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 23:55:45 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-fc28593133612fda] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:55:54 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp