00:01:34 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-54-62.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 00:05:50 is there a common lisp reference book any of you would recommend? 00:06:26 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 00:07:06 synic: what do you mean with "reference book"? 00:07:27 synic: for reference, i use the Common Lisp HyperSpec. It is very readable. 00:07:33 For reference, people mostly use the Hyperspec which is a hypertextified version of the ANSI standard 00:07:43 synic: CLtL2, if it must be a dead-tree book. 00:08:04 nah, a digital book is fine 00:08:10 I'll take a look at HyperSpec 00:08:26 Of course, being a specification, it won't teach you the language from the grounds up 00:09:41 that's ok, been reading Practical Common Lisp for that 00:11:34 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:47 synic: get hyperspec and setup Emacs for lookup in it 00:15:18 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:17:49 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:21 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:20:17 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 00:21:24 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 00:22:14 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2E642.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:24:38 segv [n=mb@72-255-115-245.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:55 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:29:12 -!- segv [n=mb@72-255-115-245.client.stsn.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:31:43 -!- syamajal_ is now known as syamajala 00:32:15 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@77.127.65.101] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:34:29 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:34:42 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 00:34:52 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 00:35:16 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-7-131.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:38:53 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-36-239.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:39:04 -!- antoni [n=user@80.30.197.150] has left #lisp 00:39:37 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@host-245-3.pubnet.pdx.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:41:35 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:43 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:19 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:48:54 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:48:57 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:53:10 blitz_ [n=julian@2001:6f8:10f6:100:216:d3ff:feb0:58e0] has joined #lisp 00:55:11 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:56:56 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:57:42 nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:15 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:19 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:46 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:09:48 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 01:10:55 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:05 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:13:57 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [] 01:14:23 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:36 fvw [n=sdfpme@125.93.105.36] has joined #lisp 01:16:54 nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:33 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-c0a876f53954a057] has left #lisp 01:17:35 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:18:16 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 01:18:32 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:20:44 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:20:50 elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:22:25 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:24:55 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 01:26:37 -!- asksol [n=ask@247.243.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:32:35 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:34:35 eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 01:35:25 Does anyone here happen to have extensive experience with Allegro -- like a history of working with them for more than 5 years or so? 01:35:59 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 01:37:04 eli: i think lichtblau might. i guess he's not here at the moment... 01:38:10 Xach: I just have a question about their policy regarding Really Old versions of their stuff -- like maybe they don't mind having it on the web as part of some ancient code. 01:38:39 eli: from all accounts i've heard, they are very likely to discuss almost any idea if you contact them 01:38:57 (I just found an old archive of a project I wrote in 1996 -- which to my surprise actually works, still...) 01:39:22 Yeah, I'm writing an email now, hopefully it won't be ignored. 01:39:46 nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:51 *hefner* would not be angry with the pretty printer if it realized that it was wrapping to 80 columns in a window twice that width 01:41:25 heh 01:41:39 unless of course it knew that but did it anyway just to piss me off - but then we'd have bigger problems. 01:42:17 eli: I had very positive experiences with Franz Inc. 01:42:39 Xach: reconsider for the 5th! I leave for Pittsburgh on the 6th. 01:42:42 blitz_: positive as in they let you do something like that? 01:43:09 eli: they started accepting paypal because of me ;) 01:43:13 Adlai` [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 01:43:48 -!- Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:43:54 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 01:44:10 *hefner* discovers *print-right-margin* after years of complaining and 60 seconds of searching 01:44:15 blitz_: Ah, well, I need something very different... I just hope that that old version is completely unrelated to what they have now, and that they don't mind letting it out. 01:44:51 sellout: i'll be in northeastern maine for a long-planned extended family gathering :( 01:45:06 eli: I wouldn't count on it, but it doesnt hurt to ask 01:45:10 blitz_: IIRC, they were very new in the Windows market at the time, and just bought it from a different company -- and later when they merged their unix version things were very different. (Which is why that GUI interface is completely dead.) 01:45:52 Xach: Ah well :( There is a small chance I'll be around on the 7th, but I think it's pretty unlikely. 01:45:53 sellout: maybe he'll go to pittsburgh next :) 01:45:56 eli: I hope you report back, if you get an answer :) 01:46:05 home of spice lisp! 01:46:16 Xach: Well, he's staying with me in Boston, so I'll see him ... but won't see you. 01:46:25 ah 01:46:47 well, i hope to make it down more than once in the next 6 months, but life is pretty busy 01:47:14 blitz_: I'll try to remember... 01:48:06 It was working pretty impressively at the time -- felt less like a unix-app-retrofitted-to-windows than the more modern stuff they had later. 01:48:34 (But I'm out of the lisp market now, so my "more modern" experience is probably ancient too.) 01:50:21 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:51:03 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-233-162.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:51:59 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [] 01:52:06 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@125.93.105.36] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:52:34 *p_l* wishes that NT ports of apps reused POSIX support... I wonder how lisp implmentations return truename on windows :/ 01:52:50 -!- blitz_ [n=julian@2001:6f8:10f6:100:216:d3ff:feb0:58e0] has quit ["leaving"] 01:53:39 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:53:52 nimalan_ [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:46 NT6 reliance on hard/soft links will break a lot of apps :D 01:57:01 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:07 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:57:33 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:46 -!- ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:05:36 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 02:06:24 -!- Nshag [n=nshag@pro77-1-88-176-235-153.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["(( (x) (x x)) ( (x) (x x)))"] 02:08:20 doesn't really matter, since pathnames are broken. 02:08:45 jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 02:08:49 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-179.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:58 hefner: Did you see the mcclim music player? 02:09:45 tcr: I did. I hadn't heard of that. I'm always surprised to see interesting mcclim apps I've never heard of - usually I feel like xof, beach, and myself are the only users. 02:12:40 I guess you haven't run it? 02:14:07 didn't occur to me to try. I already have a music player. =p 02:14:26 hefner: let's say that explorer.exe was the first victim of hardlinks... 02:14:48 well, explorer.exe and "tweakers" 02:15:06 fvw [n=sdfpme@125.93.105.36] has joined #lisp 02:15:39 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:16:52 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 02:17:24 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:21:07 -!- Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:23:02 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:23:13 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:23:13 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-53-236.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:44 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 02:23:44 Is there any class-equivalent of typep? 02:24:07 Blue_hat [n=Blue_hat@port0001-aam-cvx-cent.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 02:24:23 something that should be called classp but isn't? 02:24:49 -!- rtoym_ [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:25:05 jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 02:26:02 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:26:12 class-of ? 02:26:15 -!- Blue_hat [n=Blue_hat@port0001-aam-cvx-cent.cwjamaica.com] has left #lisp 02:27:09 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:27 hmm... aren't classes automatically recognised as types? 02:27:34 willb1 [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:43 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:29:05 p_l: yes, but it feels odd to use typep with classes 02:29:11 the code works though, so it's ok :D 02:33:15 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-50.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:19 evening 02:37:03 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:37:17 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:04 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 02:38:17 Hmm. cmucl's executable feature doesn't produce executables that can be executed when done on Suse. But they do work on Redhat. I wonder what could be different.... 02:39:29 rtoym: does CMUCL itself works on Suse? 02:39:49 Yes, I run it there all the time. 02:41:25 rtoym: in what way do they not work? 02:42:33 Ralith: (save-lisp "foo" :executable t). Then try to run foo. I get "cannot execute binary file". I guess the resulting elf file is corrupted in some way. 02:42:49 weird. 02:42:53 never seen that before. 02:42:55 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:43:20 Works great on a Redhat machine at work. Fails on a Suse machine there too. 02:43:47 does the binary generated on the redhat machine work on the suse machine? 02:44:40 Yes. 02:45:17 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:45:30 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:03 -!- Swordsman [n=kohii@pool-71-112-25-59.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 02:47:11 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-90857b45e149ca05] has joined #lisp 02:49:57 Pegazus [n=gawgaw@host250.190-224-109.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 02:50:30 mdavid [n=mdavid@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 02:55:41 ianmcorv1dae|alt [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:46 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:55:53 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:03:56 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 03:09:17 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:10:40 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:12:28 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:12:34 aja_ [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:57 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:26 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:18:45 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 03:18:49 -!- aja_ [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 03:19:42 rtoym: well, you can always diff the two executables and see what's changed! 03:31:53 Bigshot_ pasted "setq - eval" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83558 03:34:27 anybody alive? 03:37:49 thoolihan [n=thooliha@99-157-225-37.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:03 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 03:39:25 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-29-202.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:40:53 -!- thoolihan [n=thooliha@99-157-225-37.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:41:02 p_l: you there man? 03:41:09 thoolihan [n=thooliha@99-157-225-37.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:37 -!- thoolihan [n=thooliha@99-157-225-37.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:44:30 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:33 Adlai` [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 03:46:48 -!- Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:47:20 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 03:48:13 (eval (eval (quote e))) .. (eval 'e) --> (eval 'a) --> c 03:49:29 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-22-220.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:50:05 -!- mdavid [n=mdavid@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:50:34 *shrug* .. just try one eval at a time to see what it returns? .. i don't see what the problem is 03:51:06 *Ralith* suspects the problem is that Bigshot_ hasn't spent the time to read through PCL or similar. 03:51:52 it compiles -- ship it! 03:52:10 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:52:33 not before V&V 03:52:35 hehe 03:53:27 Bigshot_: t ;;; somehow I am, but I don't have a clue why 03:53:51 (it's friggin' 0453!) 03:54:09 man p_l you are suffering from insomnia 03:55:29 p_l: how many hours do you sleep in a day? 03:55:47 there's no way you're gonna do this by applying brute force or trial-and-error, Bigshot_ .. if symbols and quoting is a mystery, you really got to study things closely .. i think chapter 4 in PCL talks about this in detail 03:56:13 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-36-70.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:56:29 thanks for the guidance :) 03:57:17 coffee helps .. *slurp* :) 03:57:41 coffee or caffine? 03:57:48 both i guess 03:57:58 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 03:59:17 Bigshot_: depends on the day... But I seem to sleep once every two days... 03:59:37 OMGG 03:59:55 p_l: what's your motivation? 04:00:29 Bigshot_: that is the question 04:00:45 seriously man i also want that kinda bulldozer motivation 04:01:23 Bigshot_: I'd like to have some motivation. Then I might get some sleep 04:01:43 p_l: are you building a stock market trading program using AI - which will make you tonnes of $$$? 04:01:48 p_l: there's always brutal amounts of exercise 04:02:26 if that won't make you sleep, something is really screwed up 04:03:15 vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 04:03:28 The_Birdman [n=john@CPE001839838ebe-CM0018685225f4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:04:15 Suprano [n=anonym00@77-22-3-25-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 04:04:55 Adamant: yeah, I could pass out. But I'd need a motivation to exercise :D 04:04:59 Bigshot_: unfortunately not 04:05:01 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-50-42.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:05:17 p_l: sweet sweet sleep :P 04:05:30 Right now I'm working on a webapp, not in lisp though 04:05:44 wow interesting webapp 04:06:00 what kinda breakthrough webapp are you building? p_l 04:06:38 -!- Suprano [n=anonym00@77-22-3-25-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:06:52 nothing interesting, really. But it beats working as a waiter :) 04:07:38 "breakthrough" stuff has to wait :/ 04:07:55 right now I need to earn money for accommodation during academic year 04:08:15 Wtf you are a student p_l ? 04:08:51 -_-; 04:10:37 Hey, I'm just 20yo. Even though I can't keep clean shaven condition, I don't have RMS-like beard. And my memory is screwy enough to incorporate what I have learned on computing history into my own memory, so sometimes my thought patterns look like I was doing computers in 70s, but I didn't. Really 04:12:26 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 04:12:37 what script are you using for webapp p_l ? 04:12:54 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest18840 04:13:23 Bigshot_: currently I'm working with Merb+DataMapper. I plan on migrating to CL later 04:13:51 wow that sounds like unheard of cutting edge technology 04:14:15 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:37 lol 04:14:51 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:15:34 Merb is the base for Rails 3.0 (apparently Rails 3 will be more like Merb than Rails), DataMapper is a quite nice ORM for Ruby (definitely better than famous ActiveRecord) 04:15:56 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 04:16:42 Merb is kinda like Rails except not oriented at "make blog in 10 minutes" screencaps 04:16:44 from where do you find such uncommon techonology 04:17:35 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:17:49 -!- s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-168-238-95.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:18:01 Bigshot_: long time ago (2y High School?) I stumbled into Rails when we needed a project done "yesterday". It beat writing the same shit in PHP and *definitely* beat using a shared Excel spreadsheet 04:18:30 some time later I heard of Merb when I was looking around and found that I liked Merb better 04:19:43 you tried an unproven technology for a rush project? 04:20:08 Ralith: I won in terms of "delivery time". 04:20:38 and frankly speaking, I wouldn't be able to do some of the stuff that I did back then if I had used what I knew about PHP 04:21:00 hell of a risk, though 04:21:10 Ralith: unpaid, volunteer work 04:22:09 Rails 1.2, MySQL (4.0 then 4.1 when I moved to a server controlled by me, fortunately before deadline), active_scaffold (so we didn't have to write UI) 04:22:28 oh, and it was my first meeting with Ruby :D 04:22:52 the fact that I managed to pull it off was what made me go with Rails later 04:24:05 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-124-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:26 all in all, it paid off 04:27:43 -!- The_Birdman [n=john@CPE001839838ebe-CM0018685225f4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 04:28:33 I'll probably later rewrite the code with LoL and ROFL (ROFL looks like it will make adding geospatial data easy) 04:29:02 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 04:31:20 Blue_hat [n=Blue_hat@port0001-aam-cvx-cent.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 04:31:48 -!- Blue_hat [n=Blue_hat@port0001-aam-cvx-cent.cwjamaica.com] has left #lisp 04:32:34 How can I update indentation in a whole buffer? 04:32:38 (using SLIME obv) 04:34:11 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:50 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:34:52 -!- jyujin [n=jyujin@d221-88-81.commercial.cgocable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:35:40 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:36:43 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-59-31.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:52 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-59-31.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:37:44 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:37:46 is there a function to shuffle a list? 04:38:25 Adlai: dunno it if it works in slime's REPL but, C-x h, C-\ might be worth a shot 04:38:52 jyujin [n=jyujin@d221-88-81.commercial.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:52 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 04:41:05 tsuru: thx 04:46:58 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:47:41 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 04:50:26 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:52:41 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 05:01:49 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:01:58 konr, the alexandria library has a shuffle function 05:08:45 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:09:35 -!- vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:10:39 sidewinder128 [n=chatzill@189.137.219.116] has joined #lisp 05:10:57 -!- sidewinder128 [n=chatzill@189.137.219.116] has left #lisp 05:13:33 -!- Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:17:11 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.7.172] has joined #lisp 05:17:23 greetings 05:17:35 hi fusss 05:17:43 i have this frustrating situation where a macro expands perfectly to legible code, but nothing works after that 05:17:46 hey lnostdal 05:18:26 fusss: do you have some good example of using join tables in CLSQL? As well as modifying CLSQL to add more types? :) 05:19:05 I wrapped defclass as (defmacro defclasswrapper (class supers slots) `(defclass ,class ,supers ,(gen-frobbed-slots class slots))) 05:20:44 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 05:20:57 gen-frobbed-slots returns a valid slot description list. it doesn't do much, actually, it just adds extra slot arguments (automatic initarg and accessor generation) 05:21:28 p_l: adding more types in explained in a *.txt file in clsql/doc 05:21:58 for join slots, the documentation for DEF-VIEW-CLASS has a view sovietish examples 05:22:45 basically a slot of type :join takes a :db-info argument which specifies how that key is joined to another table and what slot there 05:23:16 for me I just do my own filtering in "middle-ware"; too busy to learn SQL/RDBMS/relational-theory 05:23:20 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:59 in a nutshell 05:24:17 my defclass is executed perfectly, but all the slots in the class are "unbound" 05:24:59 (defclasswrapper foo () ((bar :type string)) ==> # 05:25:24 (make-instance * :bar "bar value") ==> ERROR slot BAR is unbound 05:25:42 what does the expansion look like? 05:25:44 fusss, show us your macroexpansion from macroexpand-1 05:26:20 it's on my internet disabled laptop, but it's a perfect defclass. if i cut and paste the macroexapansion-1, it works 05:26:40 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@125.93.105.36] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:26:44 (DEFCLASS FOO () ((BAR :TYPE STRING :INITARG :BAR :ACCESSOR FOO-BAR))) 05:27:36 the function responsible for the slot-description generation looks like this: 05:27:46 well i use this technique a lot and never have problems with generating defclasses 05:27:54 fusss: the problem for me is that clsql's explanation of db-info parameters is rather... uninformative 05:28:16 rofl, on the other hand, has perfectly clear syntax 05:29:24 (defun gen-frobbed-slots (class-name slots) 05:29:26 (let ((new-slots) 05:29:28 (dolist (slot slots) 05:29:29 (push (list (car slot) :initarg (make-keyword (car slot) :accessor (make-accessor class-name (car-slot))) new-slots)) 05:29:31 (reverse new-slots))) 05:29:56 that is it, in a nutshell; all the other stuff is house keeping stuff irrelevant to the problem 05:30:01 can't say anything without something more concrete, fusss 05:30:03 (car slot) is the slot name 05:30:16 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 05:30:28 fusss, use paste.lisp.org, and the problem is definitely not in this function if running the macroexpand-1 works 05:30:47 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:30:57 alright, gonna bring stuff on a flash disk to this machine then 05:30:59 brb 05:31:58 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-50.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:32:48 -!- nimalan_ [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [] 05:33:45 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-222-55.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:33:53 ROTFL @ "Print Lenin's current e-mail address" in CLSQL docs 05:43:32 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@116.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 05:44:29 I had a buffoonish (intern (make-symbol ..)) line hidding somewhere 05:44:59 condensing code before submitting a bug report is an underestimated debugging method :-P 05:45:13 p_l: all the examples use soviet leaders' names 05:45:29 and the right answer is always "Trotsky" 05:46:32 ilitirit, lnostdal: thanks, mission deemed unnecessary! :-) 05:47:25 yeah, filtering out stuff and preparing for a paste is a great way to debug .. heh :) 05:47:27 nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:45 fusss: I somehow agree, had someone killed off Staling before he could take over history might have gone completely different 05:49:37 p_l: you 4th internationalsit! 05:49:57 alright, back to work 05:50:00 cheers! 05:50:05 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.7.172] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060215]"] 05:50:55 ... I'm not communist, I'm simply AGI supremacist ...;-) 05:51:24 wubbster [n=wubb@doc-24-206-235-153.kw.tx.cebridge.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:32 RenJuan [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:52:25 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:53:30 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 05:54:52 p_l: What does AGI mean? 05:56:34 -!- rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:56:34 -!- PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:56:56 -!- Guest18840 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 05:57:09 PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 05:58:33 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:01:47 rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 06:02:18 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:05:14 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:05:17 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:05:31 pbusser3: also known as "Strong" AI 06:05:44 Artificial General Intelligence 06:06:06 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 06:06:44 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.177.22] has left #lisp 06:08:25 -!- RenJuan [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:08:49 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 06:10:12 fvw [n=sdfpme@125.93.105.36] has joined #lisp 06:18:11 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:19:45 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-69-209-193-174.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:19:48 ramus` [n=ramus@75.22.31.68] has joined #lisp 06:20:58 Are there lisp AI packages like Weka? 06:21:11 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 06:27:55 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:34:42 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:34:44 morning 06:37:02 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@116.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:37:15 -!- beach` is now known as beach 06:37:24 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:37:25 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:30 hello splittist 06:37:35 [and good morning everyone] 06:37:45 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:38:01 hi everyone! 06:38:12 hello konr 06:38:15 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:38:20 hello 06:41:38 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:43:54 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 06:46:49 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:47:40 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 06:50:30 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:52:40 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 06:56:23 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 06:56:59 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-20-23.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:59:59 Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:00:14 -!- Pegazus [n=gawgaw@host250.190-224-109.telecom.net.ar] has left #lisp 07:00:25 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-22-220.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:04:10 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 07:05:32 -!- mogunus [n=marco@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:09:21 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:10:42 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:12:37 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 07:14:14 miyodea [n=msellers@69.150.79.63] has joined #lisp 07:14:21 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 07:15:00 -!- miyodea [n=msellers@69.150.79.63] has left #lisp 07:16:41 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 07:22:13 -!- wubbster [n=wubb@doc-24-206-235-153.kw.tx.cebridge.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:23:11 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@125.93.105.36] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:25:57 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:28:44 Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A6781C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:22 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 07:30:29 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:32:39 mega1 [n=mega@pool-0266e.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:36:12 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:36:22 jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 07:38:34 hmmm... clsql examples are lacking. I haven't seen any kremvax address :/ 07:39:16 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit [Client Quit] 07:39:37 like, where's email like kremvax!lenin ? xD 07:39:40 kremvax? Does that machine still exist? 07:39:55 Did it ever exist? 07:40:05 Oh yes. 07:40:40 But not in the USSR of course. It was a practical joke of the '80s. 07:41:24 Sure, I know I saw addresses like that, but I had the impression that they were fake and that no real machine with that name ever existed. But I believe you. 07:41:55 hyperbor1ean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 07:43:08 I'd suppose it was kremlvax rather than kremvax. 07:43:21 Don't think so, no. 07:43:25 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-181-151.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:43:37 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:45 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229143014.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:44:47 No, krmvax. 07:44:57 There is a Wikipedia entry about it. 07:45:02 Sorry, kremvax. 07:45:10 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:46:42 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:47:34 pbusser3: actually, it was created back in ussr 07:47:35 Then you're right, just that it is linguistically less correct :) 07:47:50 started as a joke, ended real 07:48:52 iirc it was an important node of communication during putsch, when it relayed information regarding situation in Russia 07:49:53 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.59.37] has joined #lisp 07:49:57 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 07:50:15 is there any reason why a lisp would allows such bad behaviour fmakunbounding a builtin? 07:50:20 zophy [n=sy@24.111.6.242] has joined #lisp 07:50:35 I just crashed LW after doing (fmakunbound 'print-object) 07:50:47 not crashed, just rendered useless 07:50:54 consequences are undefined 07:51:13 p_l: No, it was a joke. 07:51:15 which brings me to my next point, how can I undefine bad methods? 07:51:26 p_l: Read the Wikipedia article or use Google if you don't believe me. 07:51:44 with slime: inspect, delete what you need 07:52:21 pbusser3: well, wikipedia says what p_l said 07:52:26 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:53:03 i routinely write specializing methods for make-instance, initialize-instance, print-object and the like 07:53:13 Oh, I missed the "started as a joke, ended real" part. My bad. 07:53:26 pbusser3: as I said, it *started* as a joke. Ended real, when in iirc 1988 a real kremvax got connected 07:53:49 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:53:55 No, in 1988 there was no kremvax, because it was highly illegal to expert such stuff to the USSR. 07:54:16 s/expert/export/ 07:54:44 pbusser3: like it ever stopped anyone 07:55:01 clhs remove-method 07:55:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_met.htm 07:55:24 but it's not easy to use 07:55:45 USSR ran on PDP-11, there were also various UNIX variants, VAX clones and even VLIW supercomputers 07:56:00 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-186-81.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:56:54 ussr was a computer program? 07:56:56 bureaucracy might have screwed everyone in USSR, but it doesn't mean that they didn't have capable engineers and scientists. Not to mention capable industrial espionage division. 07:57:09 stassats: Sure, it was written in Lisp. :-P 07:57:16 Hun [n=hun@82.149.80.128] has joined #lisp 07:57:32 stassats: figure of speech - PDP-11's instruction set was chosen standard for many applications 07:57:33 p_l: I know, they also copied the Z-80 chip. 07:58:04 pbusser3: Z-80 probably only got copied to lower production cost (it wouldn't be covered by COCOM) 07:59:06 PDP-11 probably also wasn't covered by COCOM. And frankly speaking, the only thing COCOM ever achieved was killing off possible competition to prepare ground for western corporations... 08:00:09 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [] 08:00:21 somehow, when political situation was much worse, it wasn't a problem for communist state to buy state-of-the art CDC supercomputer 08:00:38 -!- hyperbor1ean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:01:04 [citation needed] 08:01:18 CDC, now that's a name you don't hear much anymore. 08:02:10 stassats: can't really cite paper source that referenced a newly installed CDC6600 08:02:41 the book was from 70s or 80s and I don't have direct access to it now 08:02:58 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:03:40 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:03:59 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:04:05 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has left #lisp 08:04:08 isn't the CDC what Wirth wrote pascal for? 08:04:44 I doubt it. 08:05:00 Perhaps the first implementation of Pascal was on a CDC. 08:06:35 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 08:07:23 CDC6000 in fact 08:07:27 i should know this 08:08:02 the book "the programming language pascal and its implementation", yellow jacket, has the compiler and other build tools fully explained 08:08:20 i wrote a primitive emulator for it as one of my first lisp programs 08:08:41 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:08:45 a symbolic assembly interpreter, actually 08:09:29 yeah, CDC6000 is also the source of old pascal's limit of 10? letter long, case insensitive symbols 08:10:14 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:10:52 I didn't know that. Interesting. 08:11:04 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.253] has joined #lisp 08:12:26 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:13:15 If I develop stuff with SBCL on machine A, and I want it to run on machine B, what is the most convenient way to copy the program over? 08:13:42 pbusser3: if they use binary compatible OSes and the same arch, I guess dumped image 08:14:31 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:14:35 copy sources 08:14:37 p_l: No, I develop on 64-bit and run it on 32-bit. 08:15:00 p_l: So the dumped image contains machine specific code? 08:15:05 yes 08:15:14 Ok. 08:15:15 i'd just rsync/use version control 08:15:33 make sure the production machine has the appropriate libs 08:15:39 you can use 32-bit version of sbcl on 64-bit machine 08:16:02 stassats: True. 08:16:21 stassats: 32-bit sbcl produces compatible images on 64-bit machine? 08:16:35 It runs as 32-bit on a 64-bit OS. 08:17:08 i'm more concerned about all the cffi, do they explode and burn in fire or are they expected to work 08:17:17 ffi, in general, not cffi :) 08:17:37 guaqua: if you load apriopriate libs, they shouldn't explode 08:17:52 guaqua: If it runs as a 32-bit application, then it is fully unaware of the 64-bit environment. 08:18:24 Pango (as in GTK) is notorious for trying to load 64bit libs in 32bit code 08:18:41 How convenient. 08:19:36 pbusser3: it doesn't notice difference in pangorc between different architectures 08:20:33 yoonkn [n=yoonkn@210.108.170.70] has joined #lisp 08:20:37 so suddenly, your GTK-based app spews messages on stderr about "wrong binary class ELF64" or something like that 08:20:46 Hehe! 08:20:54 That sucks. 08:21:26 fortunately I don't have many 32bit apps :D 08:22:40 It's only useful for backward compatibility. 64-bit code is slightly bigger, but also faster. 08:23:19 pbusser3: it's faster because AMD added 8 new registers and made SSE2 mandatory 08:23:21 i keep 32-bit OS on the desktop computer for that matter 08:23:42 p_l: True. 08:24:23 pbusser3: I heard that for example on PPC, 64bit was usually slower than 32bit unless you did a lot of 64bit arithmethic or really needed address space 08:25:16 p_l: No doubt. The CPU needs to transfer more data from memory into the cache and the CPU in order to do something useful. 08:25:40 *p_l* wonders if i7 finally targets more 64bit oriented world or does it favor 32bit apps like Core 2... 08:25:42 ye, and your caches are suddenly twice as small, in general 08:25:48 p_l: That is probably also the reason why people who use PCs have often claimed that 32-bit is faster. But it turns out, it isn't. 08:25:52 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.59.37] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060215]"] 08:25:54 mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 08:26:47 pbusser3: I recall benchmark results when Core 2 arrived on market. Sure, it did wipe the floor... but only in 32bit code 08:27:07 p_l: I only have 64-bit AMDs. :-) 08:27:14 Even in my laptop. 08:27:18 svqyqb [n=svqyqb@p508DB049.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:25 http://tinyurl.com/nkypfa 08:27:25 -!- svqyqb [n=svqyqb@p508DB049.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:27:31 pbusser3: that's why I bought a Turion, back then :) 08:28:01 not to mention that for the same price I couldn't get an intel 08:28:05 BTW, what is a good book about learning CL? 08:28:12 minion: pcl? 08:28:13 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 08:28:15 minion: tell pbusser3 about pcl 08:28:23 Thanks! 08:28:45 it's a dead-sexy book :3 08:29:21 p_l: True. The reason why Intel chips are wanted for servers is that they built a temperature sensor on the chip. If the chip would get too hot, the clock would be slowed down in hardware. 08:29:30 p_l: The AMDs would happily overheat and lock up. 08:29:56 pbusser3: I find that untrue 08:30:13 Dead-sexy eh? That may be too sexy for me. :-P 08:30:28 p_l: I'm talking about the K5/K6 days here, a long long time ago. :-) 08:31:00 I pushed my AMD to 98°C, it went nicely through emergency cool down (sure, system locked up, but you are not supposed to disable frequency scaling till emergency mode on servers, right?) 08:31:07 p_l: And it is true, I've seen machines with a K5 lockup due to temperature problems. 08:31:29 pbusser3: I had K6. We recognized malfunctioning chips because they were too cool 08:32:11 however, iirc the real reason behind lack of servers on K5/6/7 was multiprocessing, I guess 08:32:36 but in my experience an overheating amd at least doesn't get easily destroyed by it. once my cooler stopped turning and the cpu survived a >100 deg.C spike 08:32:37 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-36-239.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:32:39 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-7-131.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:33:16 fiveop: recent AMDs are rated for 105°C operating temp, they enter emergency cooldown when internal sensor screams 95° 08:33:20 Later, AMD demanded that Athlon motherboard builders add a temperature sensor to the motherboard. Which doesn't work as well as an on-chip sensor of course. 08:34:05 pbusser3: another thing is that SMP boards for K7 were more expensive to make than for P6 or NetBurst 08:34:31 p_l: That is possible. 08:34:56 let's talk more about Lisp 08:35:03 pbusser3: well, they used bus from big-iron system, no wonder it was expensive :D 08:35:22 stassats: Sure, what would you like to talk about? 08:35:39 p_l: AFAIK the AMD Athlon bus was taken from the Alpha processor. 08:35:57 beach: anything 08:36:29 Has any of you used weblocks? 08:37:22 -!- sunwukong [n=vukung@210-20-93-83.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit ["bye"] 08:37:35 pbusser3: it's actually directly compatible with EV6 Alphas (there was an Alpha motherboard with AMD server chipset, even) 08:39:59 s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-231-39.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:41:42 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:42:43 good morning, #lisp. 08:42:53 tic_: good morning 08:46:42 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229143014.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 08:46:51 hello tic_ 08:51:24 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:53:33 what's up? 08:53:58 pbusser3, i've used weblocks 08:54:05 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:54:47 Not much. I discussed font rendering with some people last night, and that gave me the opportunity to tell them that I think TrueType is not so great, and that certainly FreeType is even less so. 08:55:23 What a coincidence; I'm wrestling with the build system at work trying to get it to use FreeType rather than iType. 08:56:23 TrueType (as I understand) uses a patented technique (which uses a dumbed-down programming language) to move very-high-resolution control-point locations to locations specific to a particular resolution (correct me if I am wrong here). 08:56:51 ausente2 [n=user7994@189-19-112-220.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 08:57:10 Interesting. 08:57:19 Not only does that seem silly to me (to invent a new language when we have Common Lisp), but since the technology is patented, FreeType is unable to use it. 08:57:54 beach: It apparently depends on where you use it. 08:58:04 antoszka: how so? 08:58:17 beach: I don't think it's patentable worldwide. 08:58:26 Oh, that's possible. 08:58:34 ilitirit: Is it good? 08:58:52 http://freetype.org/patents.html 08:58:54 beach:  08:59:15 beach: Looks you can use it outside of the US (which, luckily is *most* of the world). 08:59:41 I don't think software patents hold up in court in the EU. 09:00:08 Nope. 09:00:14 Not yet, at least. 09:01:53 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-140-71.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:01:56 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-231-39.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:02:46 pbusser3, the reason i wanted weblocks was for the awesome incremental search with ajax 09:02:52 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:03:19 pbusser3, after i implemented the application i found out that the i-search is broken in current versions ;) 09:03:32 antoszka: It looks to me like patens were granted in Canada, Germany, and France. 09:03:32 but otherwise -- does what it says on the box 09:03:52 nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 09:03:52 pbusser3: I am not willing to be the one testing that. 09:04:04 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 09:04:08 beach: Still, does not mean they would stand up in court, at least in the EU. 09:04:26 IANAL, though, and all that :) 09:04:29 antoszka: Sure, but like I said, I am not willing to be the one to test it. 09:04:41 beach: Whereabouts are you based? 09:04:42 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:05:58 beach: so, your system avoids using patented algorithms? 09:07:14 antoszka: they hold if they are WTO patents with your country specified in them, even if your country doesn't have any possibility of patenting it 09:07:33 Oh yeah, the good old WTO. 09:07:41 fvw [n=sdfpme@125.93.105.36] has joined #lisp 09:07:42 p_l: Aha. 09:07:57 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:08:00 antoszka: France. 09:08:38 beach: as for the language, it's iirc some small bytecode to better write down certain characteristics of the fonts that have to be parametrized 09:08:43 -!- ausente [n=user7994@189-19-119-72.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:08:54 stassats: I designed a Common Lisp-based system that uses the technology of MetaFont instead. I don't think it contains anything related to TrueType. 09:09:44 p_l: It's a bytecode language indeed, the purpose of which is to move control points to locations adapted to low-resolution grids. 09:10:06 beach: as well to adapt to situations when you use sub-pixel addressing 09:10:12 is it only about rendering? 09:10:36 jdz: What else would it be about? 09:10:50 oh, or is it only the OpenType that has the means to choose glyphs depending on codes of consecutive characters? 09:10:59 jdz: {True,Open}Type fonts are rather limited compared to some other standards (with MetaFont kicking ass) 09:12:05 nunb [i=d98568e1@gateway/web/freenode/x-50e486aa7c75a149] has joined #lisp 09:12:19 lispm [n=joswig@e177127003.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:13:07 that feature is used to improve character accents and ligatures afaik 09:13:15 So, I think what we need is a great "recycler" such as gilberth to take existing free TrueType fonts and convert them to a Metafont-like Common Lisp-based system in order to get a lot of fonts available fast, and then to have people improve those fonts at their leasure. 09:13:38 That sounds like a good plan. 09:13:50 Is MetaFont patent free? 09:14:02 pbusser3: But no such recycler is available at the moment as far as I can tell. 09:14:14 pbusser3: Outside US? Probably yes. Inside US? I doubt breathing is patent-free 09:14:17 pbusser3: I would think so yes. 09:15:07 p_l: And that in the land of the free. :-P 09:15:33 hi, are there any cool or somewhat non-trivial cl-opengl examples/tests/projects around? .. i'm curious how this thing performs when doing real or semi-real stuff 09:15:51 given some US patent applications (on software) I had read, all you need to get a software-related patent in USA is some money for application fee 09:16:45 pbusser3: I stopped calling it "land of the free" around half a decade ago :P 09:17:02 p_l: Where are you from? 09:17:14 beach, does your code render the fonts also using grey pixels? 09:17:15 pbusser3: Poland, now in UK 09:17:23 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-90857b45e149ca05] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:17:36 lukego [n=lukegorr@84-75-21-37.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:18:09 p_l: I see. 09:18:53 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-43d1128af10436ea] has joined #lisp 09:19:57 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 09:21:33 mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 09:22:51 -!- elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving..."] 09:22:58 lispm: Yes 09:23:05 cool 09:23:25 beach: what about subpixel rendering? 09:23:33 *p_l* likes it at low sizes 09:24:18 lispm: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/fonts.png 09:24:47 p_l: I haven't done that yet, because my experiments with it were disappointing. 09:26:07 look good 09:26:10 looks 09:26:19 Thanks! 09:26:44 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:27:16 Can't you convert the fonts programmatically? 09:27:25 if you cache the bitmaps it is fast enough for normal use? 09:27:27 tcr: What do you mean? 09:27:45 lispm: It's fast enough. 09:28:27 *tic_* really likes the capital J and lower-case k 09:28:31 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:28:33 beach: "take existing free TrueType fonts and convert them to a Metafont-like Common Lisp-based system"; do you meant that that had to be done manually, or that someone "just" has to write a program to do it 09:28:50 *hefner* would be interested to know the precise layout/spacing of the subpixels on his LCD screens, but can't photograph them closely enough to make decent measurements 09:29:01 t is also nice 09:29:02 tcr: The latter. But it could be a program specialized to a particular font. 09:29:20 mas01cr [n=user@ma778.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:29:39 what about postscript fonts? 09:29:45 beach: what is that font, btw? 09:29:46 I don't like how the colors turn out on subpixel-rendered fonts. 09:29:53 i mean the name 09:30:03 is there any reason to prefer TrueType fonts? 09:30:15 tic_: the point is that you should not be seeing any colors 09:30:17 technically? legally? 09:30:19 hefner: I have at least one screen where I think there is a wider space between groups of three colors, than between colors inside such a group. This invalidates the assumption of sub-pixel anti-aliasing and gives a very mediocre result indeed. 09:30:27 jdz: My own design. 09:30:29 jdz, so how come I always do? :/ 09:30:42 lispm: OpenType fonts have some neat features 09:31:08 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [] 09:31:13 lispm: Other than the fact that a large number of freely available fonts exist, no. 09:31:15 tic_: maybe you have wrong RGB layout specified in your font renderer preferences (or you have some crazy awesome eyesight) 09:31:16 beach: I believe that. For instance, this is my thinkpad's screen: http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/misc/subpixel/lcd-elts.jpg 09:31:16 (I can't stand subpixel stuff either: the blue / red fringes are just painful to me 09:31:22 hefner: spacing you won't get, but layout you can read 09:31:43 jdz, no, I always get blue/red fringes, like mas01cr. RGDB correctly set. 09:31:51 is there anything special one needs to do to parse html using cxml? 09:32:03 beach: the letter M looks very good, but W is too "thick" (at least it looks to me) 09:32:07 tic_: freetype has borked other settings then 09:32:25 tic_: of course you're talking about LCD, right? :P 09:32:41 p_l: well, that's fairly prevalent, then, because I can also see the fringes on screenshots that other people take to demonstrate the awesomeness of subpixel rendering 09:32:47 p_l, heh, yes. 09:32:52 it's worked well for atom/rss1/rss2 so far, but html 4.01 transitional is proving problematic 09:33:02 hefner: it's a photo of it? 09:33:13 mas01cr: screenshots by definition will be borked 09:33:29 mas01cr: other people might have different LCDs, so that's quite obvious you should be getting color distortions 09:33:29 drafael: grab closure-html 09:33:33 jdz: Feel free to improve it. 09:33:42 lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:33:49 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:34:12 p_l: does it output in xmls format by any chance? 09:34:23 fvw_ [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.20] has joined #lisp 09:34:38 drafael: it takes html in and outputs CXML-style data 09:34:50 ah, great! 09:34:52 thanks 09:34:57 as for hinted/unhinted etc, my example: http://plasek.rootnode.net/hinted-vs-unhinted-consolas.jpg 09:35:21 jpg... 09:35:24 I have to admit that Win7 has a great tool for tweaking font rendering 09:35:31 stassats: it's visible even in jpeg :) 09:35:44 it was that bad 09:35:50 elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:35:56 (I mean before proper hinting config) 09:36:03 both are awful? 09:36:07 beach: correct. I took it as evidence at the time that there was a little extra space between blue and red. 09:37:13 stassats: the "fat" version on right side is without hinting, the one on the left is after tweaking rendering parameters 09:37:16 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:37:35 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 09:37:56 hefner: Ah, yes, I can't see between what and whatelse, but the widths aren't the same, that's for sure. 09:38:17 p_l: I must agree with stassats. 09:38:29 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177127003.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:39:11 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:39:52 lispm [n=joswig@e177125219.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:40:31 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483BA4E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:39 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 09:40:42 nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:23 i find this article very informative about antialiasing/hinting topics: http://antigrain.com/research/font_rasterization/ 09:43:04 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:11 and i don't understand why Apple only allows turning off antialiasing for small font sizes, which is just the opposite of what i'd like to do... 09:47:10 jdz: I have read that article in the past, and it is quite good indeed. I am not sure I agree with the conclusions, though. 09:48:18 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:52:21 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@125.93.105.36] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:52:40 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 09:52:43 hello 09:52:56 hello kami- 09:53:49 -!- mega1 [n=mega@pool-0266e.externet.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:54:25 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:55:33 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 09:55:52 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-19-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 09:56:10 *stassats* is confused by ECL version numbering 09:56:33 ignas_ [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:56:35 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:57:43 -!- Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A6781C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5/20090624025744]"] 09:57:55 *stassats* deconfused himself 09:57:59 stassats, Ubuntu-style, year-month 09:57:59 -!- ignas_ [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Client Quit] 09:58:35 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [] 09:58:45 tic_: announcement at the planet lisp linked to the wrong changelog 09:59:21 mhm 09:59:28 thought you were confused about the 9.7 10:00:21 hi attila_lendvai, which swank/slime do you use, currently? 10:03:04 nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:16 <- arrrrrgghhh why would you do that 10:09:21 jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 10:12:08 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 10:12:23 drafael: pure evilness. 10:12:53 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:15:08 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:16:51 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.199] has joined #lisp 10:21:15 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 10:22:19 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:24:54 -!- claar [n=claar@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:25:47 claar [n=claar@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 10:25:57 Hello 10:26:12 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Success] 10:26:21 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:27:19 claar: What? 10:27:19 What? 10:27:31 Yes hello! 10:27:40 claar: help 10:27:40 draw ; will draw the 10:27:59 what ? 10:28:03 claar: draw (hello) 10:28:03 http://claar.informatimago.com:8006/1 10:28:16 whose bot is that? 10:28:17 pjb: Sorry, I probably busted it yesterday by asking to draw a circular structure. 10:28:23 the dns still doesn't work 10:28:38 oh it is a bot!? 10:28:40 beach: Yes, it will need a lot of work to make it more interesting :-) 10:29:07 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [] 10:29:41 nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 10:30:10 claar = Common Lisp Ascii Art carveR 10:30:18 haha 10:30:28 nice 10:30:47 claar: draw 'claar 10:30:48 http://claar.informatimago.com:8006/2 10:30:58 does it drawe anything besidedes cons-trees? 10:31:11 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:31:36 claar: draw a banana 10:31:37 http://claar.informatimago.com:8006/3 10:31:39 claar: draw `(a ,(+ 1 2)) 10:31:39 http://claar.informatimago.com:8006/4 10:32:11 Oops! Implementation dependancy... 10:32:33 claar: draw (claar draws (lists as) text trees (on html (pages))) 10:32:33 http://claar.informatimago.com:8006/5 10:32:49 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-43d1128af10436ea] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:32:56 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-5a76b1300faa3ad0] has joined #lisp 10:33:11 hmm, probably you can draw faces with the right s-expression? 10:33:17 Since *read-eval* is nil, I assume , is disabled. 10:33:21 This will be very useful for the occassional explaining conses (: 10:33:34 Yes, that's the purpose. 10:33:36 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-117-37.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 10:33:57 kami-: our year old branch... not really advised to use it, but i'm too lazy to forward port our changes, but their absence is too annoying 10:33:58 *schme* sees a s-exp art competition coming. 10:34:06 pjb: nice work! 10:34:18 Thanks. 10:34:52 claar, draw (a (b (c (d)))) 10:35:00 -!- fvw_ [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.20] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:35:14 claar: draw (a (b (c (d)))) 10:35:15 http://claar.informatimago.com:8006/6 10:35:15 pjb: does it handle circular structure? 10:35:32 mas01cr: not yet. 10:35:45 pjb: your dns is broken 10:35:46 I won't ask it to draw #1='#1# then 10:35:48 mas01cr: neither shared structure: it displays duplicate nodes. 10:36:05 guaqua: Yes, I know, there are problems. I'm setting up secondaries... 10:36:43 *attila_lendvai* needs to run 10:36:49 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-7-131.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit ["..."] 10:37:40 claar: draw (a b c d) 10:37:40 http://claar.informatimago.com:8006/7 10:39:16 claar: draw #(1 2) 10:39:17 http://claar.informatimago.com:8006/8 10:39:32 claar: draw (make-hash-table) 10:39:33 http://claar.informatimago.com:8006/9 10:39:57 oh, oops, that was silly 10:40:11 Not really: if there was conses, we'd want them to be drawn too. 10:40:25 claar: draw #( (1 . 2) (3 4 5) ) 10:40:25 http://claar.informatimago.com:8006/10 10:40:34 is not too informative. 10:40:56 is there a way to submit from the web? 10:41:02 Not yet. 10:42:29 Also the drawing are not persistent, only as long as claar is not rebooted. 10:42:43 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:42:44 claar: draw ($ ($ ($ ($) $) $) $) 10:42:44 http://claar.informatimago.com:8006/11 10:42:47 Should I made them persistent? 10:43:09 hdurer [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-cc638ada0999ae38] has joined #lisp 10:43:09 pjb: I thought the R was for Renderer 10:43:29 I was searching for a R- word. Yes, renderer would be better. 10:44:00 -!- younder [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 10:44:02 pjb: store every s-expression ever rendered and list the prior users for s-expressions 10:44:09 X-Scale2 [n=email@89-180-180-228.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 10:44:34 Yes, if (shall it be when?) there was persistent memory, I'd do that. 10:45:50 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:46:03 now we need an emacs mode to edit using the tree 10:46:10 :-) 10:46:18 moving around in the tree 10:46:21 pjb: or you could scrape the #lisp logs for submissions... 10:46:43 (isn't that the cloudy way?) 10:46:50 :-) 10:47:07 c|mell [n=cmell@x250042.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 10:47:15 -!- TR2N [n=email@89-180-166-232.net.novis.pt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:47:27 student project: write a readtable that can parse ascii art s-expressions 10:47:33 younder [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 10:47:33 claar: draw (d c b a) 10:47:33 http://claar.informatimago.com:8006/12 10:48:27 lispm: it could then be used for an RPC system which would actually be worse than SOAP :) 10:49:49 it would be art, art is always nicer than SOAP 10:49:58 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:50:15 unless you are a raving lunatic and were in the committee that drafted SOAP 10:50:18 -!- X-Scale2 is now known as TR2N 10:50:21 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 10:50:30 *stassats* got almost usable swank client for gauche scheme, yay 10:50:42 it's really hard to use anything after slime 10:51:22 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 10:51:54 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:52:39 cracki [n=cracki@40-224.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:55:21 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 10:56:25 I'm just trying jdee, and cedit for java 10:59:27 Jabberwockey [n=jens@193.174.12.194] has joined #lisp 11:00:52 -!- ianmcorv1dae|alt [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:01:03 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.32.34] has joined #lisp 11:01:04 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 11:03:11 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:04:27 can someone tell me if something that fits the following description exists in other web app frameworks: One defines a class a la "defclass", however, every object of that class is automatically persisted in a database (clsql) and each class has the specialized methods DISPLAY-OBJECT and UPDATE-OBJECT, each of which specializes on a second "format" argument. The format arguments are :PLAIN... 11:04:27 ...and :HTML, and for the :HTML format, two verifiers are generated, one client-side javascript and the other server-side lisp. 11:04:45 well, I have "written" it 11:04:47 but it's crap 11:05:29 claar: draw (1 2 3) 11:05:29 http://claar.informatimago.com:8006/13 11:05:36 i am having a happy fun time taking the union of CL, SQL, HTML and Javascript types. In the case of HTML, it's simple 11:06:04 everthing is type='text' except SQL varchars which are 'textarea' 11:06:52 if there was some mop-fu to get the slots of a class in a list that would be sweet too 11:07:20 i am writing allot of conditional code that branches on slot-boundp and other heuristic crap 11:07:34 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:07:45 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:08:17 OT: "slot-boundp" sounds like both sexist AND sado-masochistic :-P 11:09:43 kerimbasol [n=kerim@212.156.48.66] has joined #lisp 11:10:08 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:10:14 hi fusss sounds quite similar to the idea behind weblocks, though they moved to views (quite wisely) 11:10:45 i have used weblocks for 2 days when i knew less about web development 11:11:21 i actually sat up and took notice earlier, it just dawned on me that i am creating a "web app framework". ewwww. 11:11:56 it's darn near impossible to get right .. damn frameworks 11:11:58 c|mell: the backbone of what i am doing is a macro named DEFVIEW, which wrapps clsql:def-view-class 11:12:37 lnostdal: ever gone as far as generating display html code, server side validator AND javascript validator from a single defclass? 11:12:58 i do validation etc. server side .. i'm ok with the latency involved 11:13:21 i had to reverse-engineer a website for work; databases there but pages got rm -rf'ed and i have no intention of recreating the CRUD forms by hand 11:13:25 i've done client & server side validation with regexps 11:13:33 fusss, http://sw.nostdal.org/text-input try it .. ADSL line this though :} 11:13:44 guaqua: typechecking > regexps 11:13:58 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:14:11 sure. you can use regexps all the way from the interface down to postgresql's validation 11:15:22 lnostdal: have you gone mad with utf8filia? 11:15:26 fusss: re "mop-fu": http://www.lisp.org/mop/dictionary.html#compute-slots 11:15:37 fusss, yes .. hehe :) 11:15:39 serichse1: fuck aye! 11:15:48 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:16:09 lnostdal: is SW for hunchentoot? 11:16:11 hi fusss, i mean weblocks used to do that, then they moved to a "view" which is a way of generating the html 11:16:37 nope, fusss .. HT can't do the comet crap thing, so no go 11:17:03 fusss, for example you can display an object as a row in a table with a table view, and then also in a more detailed way with another view 11:17:19 c|mell: will look at it. but my mission is accomplished for the day. i reverse engineered display information from sql tables. that's a win for me for today. 11:17:21 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 11:17:25 for comet, use teepeedee2 (but i wrote it so biased) 11:17:36 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:17:57 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:15 c|mell: you're on dialup? in .jp? 11:18:16 (i would not recommend anyone using or even trying SW if they are not prepared for some serious amount of hacking and breaking, fusss :P .. i'm playing around with a bunch of ideas trying to do data-flow and MVC lately; it's a mess) 11:18:48 lnostdal: SW? 11:19:00 lnostdal: yeah, i am trying to pretend my employer wont notice it's not PHP 11:19:07 fusss, i'm on a 3G dongle 11:19:07 rsynnott, "SymbolicWeb" 11:19:16 rsynnott, or what's left of it :) 11:19:22 c|mell: same here 11:19:57 -!- jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has left #lisp 11:20:13 i'm using a simple iolib based thing, c|mell .. single-threaded and io-multiplex, i think like your teepeedee2 11:20:30 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 11:21:05 people should standardize on hunchentoot API, i think 11:21:08 vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 11:21:20 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:22:02 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:22:11 lnostdal, sounds like it but tpd2 is certainly not simple (8k lines) 11:23:39 c|mell, ok, this here only handles the ajax and comet stuff .. lighttpd does the rest .. static content, caching, https/ssl, etc. .. just needed a simple lisp backend for reverse proxying with persistent connections 11:24:07 same with tpd2 11:24:28 ok, still 8k lines? .. what's it doing? .. heh :) 11:24:55 lots and lots, it includes a framework for defining turn based games :) 11:25:02 ohok 11:25:05 anyway gtg 11:25:09 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250042.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:25:14 manuel_ [n=manuel@dslb-188-098-066-199.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:25:15 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.32.34] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060215]"] 11:25:33 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:26:37 HET2 [i=diman@128.131.95.22] has joined #lisp 11:27:04 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@dslb-188-098-066-199.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:27:45 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:27:54 quit 11:28:01 /quit 11:28:05 oops, sorry 11:28:18 -!- mas01cr [n=user@ma778.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:31:07 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.253] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:31:13 ASau` [n=user@77.246.230.253] has joined #lisp 11:31:31 -!- younder [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:35:19 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 11:35:46 -!- tcoppi [n=nuclear@57c3ed63-1294-45bd-a8e8-cdcc07cfa16f.static.grokthis.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:37:33 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 11:38:29 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-53-236.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:39:19 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-53-236.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:39:44 what's the function that clears the REPL 11:39:46 ? 11:39:59 (clear)? 11:40:09 C-c M-o in Slime 11:40:11 what should it do? 11:40:18 not in slime 11:41:19 If you're inside a terminal, you could emit the right escape sequence to your terminal to do it 11:41:24 :clear output history 11:42:23 variable output has no value 11:42:43 you are not using a Lisp Machine? 11:42:48 manuel_ [n=manuel@dslb-188-098-066-199.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:42:52 clisp 11:43:07 interpreter 11:43:27 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:43:37 how does your terminal work then? 11:44:07 what do you mean? 11:44:14 C-l clears for me 11:45:06 nope doesn't work C-l 11:45:10 what do you mean with 'clear the REPL'? 11:45:40 similar to clear in linux 11:45:50 what does that do? 11:45:59 Bigshot, did you press ? 11:46:03 yes 11:46:08 and what did that do? 11:46:12 what OS are you on? 11:46:18 just went to another line vista hp 11:46:42 You want "cls" in cmd.exe, but that's a feature of the terminal, not your Lisp. 11:47:02 cls is the feature of cmd.exe i think 11:47:23 maybe it is easier in Linux? 11:47:44 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:48:21 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 11:48:36 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 11:50:02 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@dslb-188-098-066-199.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 11:50:24 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:51:52 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-53-236.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:56:28 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-5a76b1300faa3ad0] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:58:01 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:00:10 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 12:00:54 -!- claar [n=claar@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:01:30 oudeis [n=oudeis@84.229.23.250] has joined #lisp 12:03:26 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@204.194.78.3] has joined #lisp 12:03:58 -!- ASau` [n=user@77.246.230.253] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:03:59 mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 12:05:41 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:06:47 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-210-67.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 12:07:08 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-121.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:08:18 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 12:10:19 Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 12:11:57 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:57 manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has joined #lisp 12:13:50 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-222-55.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:14:02 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:14:09 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:14:14 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 12:14:45 manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has joined #lisp 12:16:25 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 12:16:51 -!- vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:18:52 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:20:58 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 12:22:31 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:23:12 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 12:23:54 novaburst [i=nova@sourcemage/mage/novaburst] has joined #lisp 12:26:10 dto [n=user@98.118.1.212] has joined #lisp 12:27:01 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-194.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 12:28:03 -!- nunb [i=d98568e1@gateway/web/freenode/x-50e486aa7c75a149] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 12:30:02 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:31:33 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-194.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:37:13 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:39:05 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 12:42:34 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:43:06 vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 12:49:31 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 12:50:49 ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:46 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 12:54:30 Hello! 12:54:36 hello mrSpec 12:57:08 hello mrSpec 12:57:29 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:57:31 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 13:06:08 BIG pasted "mystery time" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83568 13:06:38 it frightens me 13:06:44 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@84.229.23.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:07:10 hurry up! 13:07:25 it frightens me very quickly 13:07:36 argh, the horrible, horrible formatting 13:07:47 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-36-239.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 13:07:56 look, just format the way emacs forces you to 13:08:01 EMACS KNOWS WHAT IS BEST 13:08:47 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 13:09:11 it's not lisp .. it's not c .. what style is it? .. heh 13:09:34 BIG annotated #83568 "here" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83568#1 13:09:46 haha 13:10:23 Bigshot_: computes rho of a sine 13:10:36 nice try next. 13:11:09 Bigshot_: where did you get that code? 13:11:15 oh hold on 13:11:16 dang 13:11:38 ( mystery '( ( a ) ( ( ( b ) ) ) ) ) <- now go ahead 13:11:42 you are asking because you don't know the answer or you want to test us? 13:11:45 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:11:49 both 13:11:53 stassats, it's a trap 13:12:05 Bigshot_: where did you get the code? 13:12:08 so, go figure it on your own 13:13:10 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 13:13:19 Bigshot_: c'mon, you've wasted hours of generous help with your other moronic questions, you should be kind enough to answer at least one. 13:14:14 'moronic' that's gratifying 13:14:45 Focus on the positive, then. A lot of people were willing to overlook your terrible writing and thinking and try to help you make progress. 13:14:53 That's generous! Now where did you get that code? 13:15:21 Maybe it's masochism, actually... 13:17:55 Sometimes Xach fastens a cheese grater to his forehead and goes tap-dancing. That's how he built up this level of fortitude. 13:18:53 After finishing the project, my zest for lisp has seemed to disappear. 13:19:21 you just need another project 13:19:54 ;) 13:20:00 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 13:20:08 I still love the language a lot still to learn 13:20:23 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:20:28 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest38826 13:20:41 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:23:45 leo2007: contribute to sykobot :) 13:24:03 envi_home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:24:24 sykobot? 13:24:36 minion, tell leo2007 about sykobot 13:24:36 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``sykobot''. 13:24:39 -!- ineiros [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:24:40 hm 13:24:40 TDT [i=dthole@dhcp80ff869b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 13:24:53 leo2007: www.github.com/sykopomp/sykobot/ 13:25:09 mega1 [n=mega@53d82b35.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 13:25:41 Adlai: I am an engineer though 13:27:38 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 13:28:29 so anybody figured out what that little mystery program does? 13:28:37 leo2007: what part of engineer makes you superior to the almighty lisp? 13:28:42 i figured, but i won't tell you 13:29:26 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:29 madnificent: did I sound like that? I meant to say that there's only a little part of programming that I am interested in 13:30:01 ineiros [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 13:30:02 leo2007: no, I was kind of messing with you in the hope of getting you to code more lisp :) 13:30:03 madnificent: although I love lisp I don't worship it. 13:30:18 but is that then true love? 13:30:31 or is it false, perfidious love? 13:30:56 leo2007 is a witch, burn him alive! 13:31:19 lisp demands agape love. 13:31:43 do you all get a job to indulge your love in lisp? 13:32:30 leo2007: programming can help you think in a more abstract way about your problems. The freedom of lisp could help you solve engineering problems indirectly :) 13:32:35 leo2007: I'm a student btw 13:32:55 but my holiday job is in lisp... 13:33:10 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has joined #lisp 13:33:11 joachifm [n=joachim@ti132110a340-2570.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 13:33:14 *Adlai* is employed by Life as a beach bum and has a night job in Lisp. 13:33:22 I see programming in building something virtually to save time 13:33:52 leo2007: only as that? not as something to broaden your thinking? 13:34:08 leo: I suggest not confusing programming with mechanics. 13:34:08 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:34:13 I have not been enlightened to that level 13:34:38 leo: Get the hang of functional programming -- removing time from the equation and it should be simpler. 13:34:51 leo: It is hard to have machines when there is no time. 13:34:58 hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.0.214] has joined #lisp 13:36:09 hmm 13:36:52 s0ber [i=pie@114-45-233-64.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:58 I am finishing my PhD soonish, after that I will be doing something quite different. 13:37:08 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:37:38 heh 13:37:41 leo2007: Always do what you love though...I work full time and still spend significant amounts of free time coding stuff in lisp/etc :) 13:38:21 argh! pg.lisp seems to get confused in serve-event when there's an error, and it doesn't seem to recover with a reconnect. 13:38:29 and my database is too old for postmodern :( 13:38:34 TDT: yes, that's why I chose to do a project recently in lisp. I want to focus on one language and build some confidence in using it. 13:38:38 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:39:03 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:39:03 TDT: avoid women & children! 13:39:03 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:39:12 and perhaps pets. 13:39:22 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 13:39:58 dogs, cats are less demanding 13:40:01 and the Internet! 13:40:32 if you avoid the internet, you can't reach the hyperspec 13:40:36 Xach: you're using a very old version of postgres, or? 13:40:38 it is a necessary evil 13:40:38 Xach: haha, yeah, that's true though..sad but true, both will sap the time away from you :) Now, avoiding animals, meh, you don't need to do that. 13:40:45 Xach: i have it locally 13:40:46 Xach: you could download hyperspec though! 13:40:48 rsynnott: that's not true 13:40:54 that is just crazy talk 13:40:57 lol 13:41:02 -!- ineiros [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:41:05 rsynnott: 7.3.something 13:41:16 upgrading's reasonably easy 13:41:21 ok so the myst program takes car (A) and cdrers it, then it takes (((B))) and cdrers it but how come we get 4 as answer? 13:41:25 do you use clos almost surely? 13:41:29 -!- Posterdati [n=tapioca@host49-225-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:41:36 rsynnott: everything's easy if you don't have a gajillion rows and lines of code attached. 13:42:07 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:42:08 Posterdati [n=tapioca@79.2.217.40] has joined #lisp 13:42:11 ineiros [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 13:42:12 -!- elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving..."] 13:42:25 segv [n=mb@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:42:41 I think the main thing to avoid if one wants to do lisp a lot is gaming...especially something like WoW :-/ 13:43:11 Or Nethack. 13:43:16 -!- ineiros [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:43:24 *stassats* avoids it naturally 13:43:37 *Adlai* is probably lucky that he tried both and hated them vigorously. 13:43:50 Seems like the more stressed out work is for me, the more I play those games...definitely an issue sometimes. 13:43:53 *luis* hides his nethack window. 13:45:58 ausente [n=user7994@187.10.22.185] has joined #lisp 13:46:03 before i had a wife & kids, i would throw away entire weekends playing essentially the same game of freeciv over and over. d'oh. 13:46:45 *rsynnott* had a brief addiction to Civ4 last year 13:46:56 *stassats* becomes bored playing games pretty quickly 13:47:16 *rsynnott* doesn't generally like games that much, though 13:47:44 Yeah, that's the same as here..I don't like a huge number of games, usually the old classic games that I can put down after 30m with no headache from it. 13:47:47 *Xach* now wastes small chunks of time watching korean professional starcraft matches 13:48:06 The newer games either you pump time into in large amounts to get anywhere, or you do almost nothing in the game. 13:49:13 after a few hours in search of a heisenbug, I find a little FPS action pretty cathartic. 13:49:49 -!- ausente [n=user7994@187.10.22.185] has quit [Client Quit] 13:49:54 fade from what i figured this program gives the total number of brackets but how? http://paste.lisp.org/display/83568#1 13:49:55 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 13:50:11 brackets + 1 13:50:13 Hmm, after using ido for a while, I start to wish the slime ,cd command used it. 13:50:20 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 13:50:38 oudeis [n=oudeis@192.117.29.133.static.012.net.il] has joined #lisp 13:51:00 #lisp 13:52:11 Xach: that's easy 13:52:16 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:52:41 stassats: what does it take? 13:53:09 just change read-directory-name to ido-read-directory-name in contrib/slime-repl.el `slime-set-default-directory' 13:53:52 i haven't tried that, though 13:54:32 ok, thanks. 13:55:25 What is ido? 13:55:48 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:56:37 pbusser3: Tab completion on steroids of sorts. 13:56:51 pbusser3: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/InteractivelyDoThings 13:58:15 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 13:58:38 Xach: Heh, funny, a few guys I know also recently started watching those matches. 13:58:44 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:59:42 heh, wish I could find something that did better tab completion of code in emacs. Something like intellisense, but never have been able to get anything setup. 14:00:09 i liked the way eclipse did it, too 14:00:10 Ok. 14:00:40 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 14:00:47 -!- ausente2 [n=user7994@189-19-112-220.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:01:43 guaqua: *nod* wish there was something for emacs that did something similar. I know we can use tags tables and M-/, but still. 14:01:45 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 14:02:03 also disturbing the entire layout for a completion is too much. it would be better to have a special non-buffer popup for them 14:02:49 it restores your layout afterwards 14:03:00 still 14:03:12 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:03:15 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 14:03:24 Bigshot_: I think it's counting the nils in each list. 14:03:49 guaqua: Are you aware of http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/AutoComplete ? 14:04:09 Maddas: nope. thanks. will try. looks really nice 14:04:34 -!- Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:04:38 *Maddas* only just found out about it :-) 14:05:06 Maddas: Used that a few times in the past and have had mixed luck with that app. 14:05:31 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 14:05:43 errr with that extension, app...jeeze 14:06:55 ah, the cond for null just catches the last one. it's counting the cars 14:07:23 I haven't had any coffee yet. 14:07:28 analyse it yourself. :) 14:07:47 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 14:08:05 i 14:08:08 "traced" it 14:09:44 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.0.214] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:11:41 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:11:49 it is just destructuring the list, if it finds an atom it returns zero, otherwise it returns 1. 14:12:04 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 14:12:52 so in the true case, you get the accounting. 14:13:15 (cdr ((b))) will be nil how can we know which bracket nil it is giving? 14:14:42 is (cdr ((b))) valid code? hm, you learn something new every day. 14:15:05 it'll return a wrong answer if there is a literal nil in the list. 14:15:18 Fade: what's true answer? 14:15:42 well, it'll return the correct answer, but if you assume that the function counts parens, you'd be wrong. 14:16:03 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:16:09 (eq nil ()) => t 14:17:17 (eq nil (list nil)) => nil 14:17:33 no wonder, but what's the point? 14:17:37 edeion [n=ed@128.93.1.81] has joined #lisp 14:17:43 i'm not even sure how I got dragged into this. 14:17:47 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:18:00 generosity. 14:19:20 Heh, welcome to lisp, where you fritter away many billable hours on trivial coding problems. 14:19:25 *#lisp* 14:19:54 we should write a book 14:19:58 lol 14:20:00 for profits 14:20:08 copy & sell .. etc. 14:20:18 where is gigamonkey? 14:20:31 tmh: lol, that's funny. 14:20:37 lnostdal: busy writing books 14:20:47 I think gigamonkey has already done his pennance. 14:20:54 "write-once" 14:20:57 Bigshot_: have you read PCL? 14:21:16 helping Bigshot_ proved to be futile 14:21:20 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-222-55.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:51 see, you wander off for a few days and miss all the important memos. 14:22:13 *Fade* opens three days of his own bug reports 14:23:18 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@ti132110a340-2570.bb.online.no] has quit [Client Quit] 14:24:02 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 14:26:44 ThomasIl [n=thomas@91-64-150-5-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:26:46 Fade: in something you're working on, or do you use a ticket manager for your own projects? 14:27:12 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:27:16 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:27:24 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177125219.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:27:37 we use trac internally. 14:28:03 Ah ok, what about your own personal projects, do you use anything to keep track of stuff from that? 14:28:13 but it doesn't scale. i'd never expose trac to the open internet. 14:28:45 *lnostdal* looks at the "Load" values @ common-lisp.net 14:28:53 for my personal stuff, I tend to just use a distributed revision control system. 14:29:04 darcs, typically, but we're looking at moving to git. 14:29:40 Muld [n=wr23@88-196-32-41-dsl.noe.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 14:29:58 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 14:30:28 The number of git commands is a little overwhelming. That's why I stick with darcs, on the assumption that by the time my projects are big enough to encounter any of the "problems" with darcs, they'll be fixed. 14:30:48 Ah ok, same here - I use git for my stuff, though. 14:31:08 tmh: I used to work on the same assumption, but it's clear that the problems with darcs will never be fixed. 14:31:31 I was thinking at times to do "larger projects" and with those actually use something like trac...but I use org-mode quite a bit. 14:31:35 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:31:47 tmh: I wouldn't bet on that 14:31:51 I do too many small projects though, nothing really "big" 14:32:53 Great. I do use git for the LISP-UNIT stuff because that was what the people I'm collaborating use. Maybe I need to invest some more time learning it. I need to figure out how to set up git to cherry pick patches by default like darcs. Then I'd probably be happy. 14:32:58 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 14:33:41 Also need to learn how to manipulate branches better. 14:33:57 I love the simplicity of branching in darcs. 14:33:59 "Git from the Bottom Up" is a great book for a lot of that kinda stuff. 14:34:03 it's also nice to be able to fall back to scp 14:34:12 if you have to work with svn, git is nice 14:34:28 and by git i mean git-svn 14:34:30 Fade: git works over ssh. 14:34:31 *easyE* is a mercurial fan. 14:34:35 but lately i've run into very annoying problems with darcs refusing to interoperate with incrementally older versions of itself. 14:36:07 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:36:12 ineiros [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 14:36:16 also, roundy isn't even really involved anymore from what I hear tell. 14:36:16 bzr has the same problem with that Fade :) 14:36:49 my group will likely move to git, but we're evaluating mercurial, too. 14:37:23 Google's backing of Mercurial is good, now that Sun's future is cloudy. 14:38:18 Honestly, I've come to decide that I'm stupid [Torvalds] and prefer subversion. 14:38:53 git is more a set of building blocks for a usable revision control system than an RCS itself... 14:39:16 if you don't have any of the problems that distributed revision control was designed to solve, it probably doesn't matter what you use. 14:39:23 rpg: wonderful, isn't it ? 14:39:24 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 14:39:27 *tmh* wastes time reviewing mercurial, again. 14:39:45 Fade: How many people really do have those problems? 14:40:11 i'd say those problems are common in widely distributed open code projects. :) 14:40:16 Tankado [n=Woodruff@bzq-79-177-129-8.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:22 I am working on two projects now (ASDF and org-mode) that have adopted git. In neither case do the core maintainers fully understand git. 14:40:30 In both cases they are cargo-culting it. 14:40:43 -!- Tankado [n=Woodruff@bzq-79-177-129-8.red.bezeqint.net] has left #lisp 14:40:45 In neither case do I see what is gained versus having an understandable svn repo. 14:41:09 Does anyone fully understand git? It has something like a bazillion commands that interact in strange and subtle ways. 14:41:17 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:41:29 "The emperor has no clothes on! The emperor is naked!" 14:41:29 rpg: that is a problem, but that's not actually git's fault 14:41:39 asdf is a single <1kloc file that changes a few times a year 14:42:18 CVS was clearly inadequate for ASDF because it couldn't handle file additions (e.g., making it close to impossible to usefully branch and create new tests). 14:42:18 -!- edeion [n=ed@128.93.1.81] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:42:21 seems like anything including have no source control would work for it exactly as well 14:42:29 it is a tool that can be misused: a swiss army kaleidoscope, if you will 14:42:39 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 14:42:47 Xof: Right. It's more an API than a tool. 14:43:02 so, when you say "right" you mean "I disagree with you"? 14:43:16 (and CVS was perfectly fine for asdf) 14:43:16 No. I agree that it's a swiss army kaleidoscope. 14:43:17 Screw it, I'm getting back to work. darcs works for me. When I run into a problem with it that I can't resolve, I'll switch. Until then, ignorance is bliss. 14:43:54 there was no particular need to branch by anyone at any time: just add the files locally, test, commit 14:43:55 I don't agree about CVS for ASDF. (I mean "right".) I was trying to set up new tests for the clean-op and it really wasn't possible to do that. 14:44:06 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:44:06 mercurial is nice 14:44:52 rpg: I'm sorry: you claim people don't understand the tools they're using, and then you say things like that? 14:45:09 Right ;-) 14:45:47 heh 14:45:47 Xof: Seriously, I think svn would have been an entirely appropriate choice for ASDF. 14:46:07 oh, I agree, but I also think that cvs was perfectly fine 14:46:20 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:46:30 and like jsnell says, the only CVS feature that was actually used was the $$Revision$$ keyword 14:47:15 yango_ [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 14:47:35 The advantage of SVN would be that branches were /possible/, permitting people to test proposed features, and the management of adds and deletes is reasonable. 14:47:39 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 14:47:47 anyhow, for me, the best feature of git is how fast it is. 14:48:05 For asdf, those seemed like they would have been really useful. See earlier comments on trying to add new tests. 14:48:21 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:48:23 I like the semantics of darcs, but we're running into issues with it ranging from the toolchain to build it, all the way to how long it takes to commute any reasonably large project. 14:48:24 yeah, and see earlier comment on not being able to drive tools 14:48:28 -!- yango_ is now known as yango 14:48:32 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:05 I mean, really, 8 hours to build ghc and darcs on a PPC mac? pfffft. 14:49:46 Xof: IMO, for many projects, including open source ones, the simplicity of centralization outweighs the advantages of git. I concede that there are cases where the advantages are useful, but I feel git is being overused now. 14:49:58 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:50:06 Fade: I feel your pain. I ended up giving up on Mac Ports darcs in favor of a stand-alone port. 14:50:12 I think the suggestion is that it's actually possible to add and remove files in CVS 14:50:24 rpg, I disagree. The local branches and ease of merge. It's just heaven. 14:50:33 Fade: What needs to happen with darcs is a separation of the repository from the tools to manipulate it. I think that's just a matter of sufficient documentation of the repository format and then someone implementing the in another language, like C or, I don't know, maybe CL. :-) 14:50:43 and also that it is not the flexibility of the tool that _causes_ it to be misused 14:50:57 rpg, do you realise the git can be used in a centralised manner? 14:51:00 there's already a cl implementation of darcs, although it looks a bit orphaned. 14:51:05 *that 14:51:19 Fade: It has a little bit-rot and is only darcs 1 14:51:34 Fade: The pain was really extreme when I started using MacPorts --- it was common for ghc to try to build for hours and then fail... 14:51:37 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 14:51:38 Fade: It's also not full featured. 14:52:21 rpg: yeah. lately I've been running into the problem that the darcs on my portable won't interop with the darcs on our debian development servers. 14:52:36 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:52:49 no real debugging available, it just fails fairly silently. 14:53:00 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 14:53:09 deepfire: Yes; I've just never seen a repo managed that way. 14:53:10 *Fade* shrugs 14:53:30 rpg, that makes the SVN argument somewhat weaker, though. 14:53:49 rpg: gitosis and github spring to mind 14:54:04 mercurial seems more darcs-like, but when moving revision control systems, you want to make that move only once, and git obviously scales fine to very very large projects. 14:54:14 -!- segv [n=mb@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:54:45 i'm willing to expend some sweat on learning it. 14:54:48 I believe that cl-git is what "we" "need". 14:55:13 The problem with mercurial seems to be that you're going to have to learn git anyway, so the additional learning curve seems wasted. Darcs has been unavoidable, though ;-) 14:55:18 I realise I'm going to be burned at the stake for using these two words close together. 14:55:20 also more attractive now that git is a first class citizen on common-lisp.net 14:56:13 segv [n=mb@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:56:28 in terms of rcs's you need to know to be active in free software, svn git and darcs seem to be the primary pillars. 14:56:42 so i'll likely suck it up and just learn the nuances of git. 14:56:54 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:57:08 wait, where is cvs? 14:57:15 Here's a quick question: we are always told that git makes branching so much easier, but I've never understood the claim. 14:57:17 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:20 darcs? if there's a vc with one leg already in the grave, it's darcs 14:57:32 cvs is hopefully freezing to death in the eighth ring of hell. 14:57:46 It seems like the hard part of branching is the merge, and here it seems like the limiting factor is diff, not the revision control system... 14:58:01 http://book.git-scm.com/3_distributed_workflows.html 14:58:03 jsnell: What's driving darcs into the grave? 14:58:15 roundy isn't involved anymore. 14:58:15 darcs is nice, but Git is eating its lunch 14:58:54 rpg, and the minor detail of remembering the merges. 14:59:06 and it's unclear there is any sol'n to the combinatorial explosion in the theory of patches. 14:59:15 which is a shame, because it's an elegant idea. 15:00:09 but seeing as how I'm not French, i'm more interested in what works in practice than I am about what works in theory. :) 15:00:19 tic_: OK, but if merges can still be horrible diff-fests, then maybe Joel Spolsky's right and the worst feature of git is that it makes branching easy. 15:00:21 the original performance issues, and then the confusion about whether the project would actually be maintained or not. it woudl 15:00:52 've been hard for anybody to switch to darcs after that "here's version 2, not going to maintain this anymore, hope somebody picks it up" announcement 15:01:04 rpg, has he actually used git? seeing how he runs a Windows shop, and the gits for Windows haven't been around much, I doubt his credibility on the subject. 15:01:26 s/much/for long/ 15:02:09 rpg: Spolsky is a Mercurial fan, I hear. 15:02:42 luis: that's an interesting article, but I was surprised to see that two of the three models of operation involve peer-to-peer "pull", a model that I've never seen used in practice (since satellite repos are often strictly local and not so pullable). 15:03:00 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:03:29 hbock [n=user@198.7.232.249] has joined #lisp 15:03:44 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 15:04:00 Fade: does folks besides the haskellers and lispers actually use darcs? 15:04:05 s/does/do/ 15:04:14 I've seen a few places that do 15:04:34 slyrus: In the past I've seen the odd emacs-lisp project that did. 15:04:49 quodlibet (python) uses it 15:05:00 though I wouldn't be surprised if the author was a lisper 15:05:07 FWIW, all of my gripes with git were eventually resolved by figuring out how to do what I was trying to do 15:05:55 -!- nerdshark [n=dorkfish@74-131-91-175.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:05:58 rpg, "seeing something used in practice" is not a prerequisite for it to be an effective mode of operation. 15:05:59 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:06:31 I'd be interested in what that was. I have not yet used any advanced features of a version system 15:06:33 slyrus_: I'm in the same boat, except that I haven't had the patience yet to figure everything out. 15:06:39 dorkfish [n=dorkfish@74-131-91-175.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 15:06:41 rpg, you organise your way around git, and in that sense it requires a reestimation of your operational models. 15:06:58 deepfire: I wasn't arguing for the utility of darcs. Just explaining why I actually used it, whereas I have found mercurial avoidable 15:07:42 deepfire, slyrus: per tmh's earlier point, the challenge of git is that it seems that avoiding problems in even cursory use requires more knowledge than cursory use of, e.g., svn. 15:08:35 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:09:05 rpg: I use git to mess around locally and push upwards to svn, it's really nice and required some blog+man reading to get going. Not harder. 15:09:07 what are some examples of such problems? 15:09:11 -!- mega1 [n=mega@53d82b35.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:09:15 learning, what a nuisance. one day man will walk out of the cave 15:10:08 guaqua: When a tool is unnecessarily complex, it is no longer a tool, it is a hindrance. 15:10:21 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:10:29 larry: Yes, I've been wanting to do this myself, but when I did the blog+man reading for this purpose I kept running across cautions that gitsvn (whatever the program was) didn't work completely reliably, and maybe there would be trouble, and the small off-line uses never seemed worth the worry... 15:10:30 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:11:54 sure. git is too complicated for some basic things - it doesn't make many assumptions as what sane defaults are. svn makes all the assumptions and it is still as hard when you need something else but co, ci, status, rm and add 15:12:45 HG` [n=wells@xdslgk008.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:13:19 slyrus_: it's used in python circles quite extensively. 15:13:28 jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 15:14:00 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit [Client Quit] 15:14:20 rpg: agree, a cheat sheet of 10 cmd's would be enough, this guy had paved the hard work needed for me to get starting http://www.jukie.net/~bart/blog/svn-branches-in-git 15:15:44 guaqua: I think the challenge for git is that it permits multiple different models of interaction, and (1) it would be helpful to have something like luis' three models article that covers more of the in-use patterns and (2) the using projects aren't always clear about what pattern they are assuming. 15:16:28 If we had clearly-documented patterns of use, with command subsets, and clear understandings of the in-use patterns, git would be more friendly. 15:16:34 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 15:16:48 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has joined #lisp 15:17:45 rpg: yes. documentation with good examples and well-defined patterns of use 15:18:30 luis: what surprised me was that that article didn't have a pattern that I have most commonly seen: central canonical repository with gate-keeper; remote users with their own branches; patches submitted to gatekeeper; gatekeeper inserts (by hand) into the central canonical repo. 15:19:20 This fits the model of software project with strong owner. 15:19:34 Anyone know of an article that explains how to work in that pattern? 15:20:25 other model would be the quite common "multiple independent equal developers" 15:21:15 mrSpec_ [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 15:21:23 -!- kerimbasol [n=kerim@212.156.48.66] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:21:47 -!- mrSpec_ [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [Client Quit] 15:22:00 guaqua: I suppose. I don't see that pattern, myself. 15:22:25 that's how most of my projects work. 15:22:41 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 15:22:43 it's common when theres a lot of code related to many different things (independent shell scripts etc) 15:22:59 hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.0.12] has joined #lisp 15:24:06 or when version control is mostly used to provide backups to a file system 15:24:15 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has left #lisp 15:24:16 But don't you have to eventually mash it into a canonical form to release? 15:24:44 if you have a product, yes :) 15:25:22 Even if you just have an open source toolkit? 15:29:58 Suprano [n=anonym00@77-22-3-25-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:30:04 hey there 15:30:44 dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 15:32:51 ask [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 15:33:00 -!- dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit [No route to host] 15:34:59 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 15:35:30 stuart71 [n=user@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:57 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:42:23 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:45:55 a-s` [n=user@92.81.46.25] has joined #lisp 15:46:26 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-140-71.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:49:15 rpg: doesn't the "Public git repositories" section discuss the scenario you're describing? 15:50:03 -!- ask [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit [No route to host] 15:50:19 luis: Not really. It assumes I can push, which is typically not the case in a gatekeeper model, and it doesn't explain the case I found to really go pear-shaped: 15:50:50 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:50:54 I create a branch and start working on a patch there. I want to keep my master updated and I also want to keep sucking the changes from master into my branch. 15:50:58 rpg: the gatekeeper pulls from you and pushes onto the public/main repo 15:51:32 rpg: sounds good. That's what I do with SBCL. 15:51:35 luis: No, the gatekeeper collects patches and pushes them into the master at his/her judgment. 15:51:36 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:51:56 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 15:52:30 Right, but in order to keep your branch up to date, you have to understand merges, fetches, and stuff, because the pulling only works to your master, and a simple pull with the branch checked out doesn't work. 15:53:30 luis: Is there a writeup somewhere that explains clearly how to do this "keep my in-process branch AND my master branch in sync with patches on the origin" task? 15:53:59 maybe Nikodemus' GIT-FOR-SBCL-HACKERS.txt? 15:54:09 -!- envi_home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:54:44 luis: this is a case of a very simple and common thing to want to do that seems unnecessarily difficult. 15:54:52 rpg: you probably already know about it, but I think you want git-rebase. 15:55:00 or at least to involve more understanding of git than one really wants. 15:55:10 rpg: oh yes, agreed. 15:55:30 A simple command to "pull from origin through master" is really what one wants here. 15:55:38 -!- HET2 [i=diman@128.131.95.22] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:56:03 rpg: how would you do it with svn? 15:56:09 The git folks clearly aren't allergic to providing non-primitive commands, since they have pull... 15:56:26 luis: svn merge. 15:56:37 *Fade* is lol at "Phosphorus, The Popular Lisp" 15:57:13 The difference is that since branches are "advanced svn", I can go for a long while without having to figure out how to use them. But they are primitive to git, so I must move directly to a much deeper understanding of the tool. 15:57:55 To me it seems akin to having to understand BSD sockets in order to understand streams. The stream abstraction is there to protect me from stuff like sockets. 15:58:02 *rsynnott* doubts the wisdom of naming a language after a substance best known as a chemical weapon 15:58:11 But there doesn't seem to be a git abstraction that protects me from anything. 15:58:19 rsynnott: the Phosphorus paper is full of wisdom. 15:58:27 Oh, I think the wisdom is fully intentional. :) 15:59:12 rpg: what is the abstraction you want to hide branches under? 15:59:37 -!- a-s [n=user@92.81.46.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:59:55 serichsen: I don't want to hide branches. But I wish I could avoid having to understand rebasing. 16:00:34 I suspect that the problem is that "git pull" is a very leaky abstraction. 16:00:39 s/the/my/ 16:01:03 'AvariciousArmoire' - heheh 16:01:36 rpg: hmm, but, git pull will do the merging. What's the problem exactly? 16:01:59 luis: Right, but once I create my local branch, git pull will no longer do the merging. 16:02:13 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:02:38 luis: Somehow I need to pull into the master and pull from the master into the branch. 16:03:01 [and then we're either doing merging or rebasing or both...] 16:03:32 guest5432 [n=vasile@john-marshall.sflc.info] has joined #lisp 16:04:00 Good evening. 16:04:33 luis: I feel odd even having to ask this --- isn't this such a common use pattern that it should be easy to find instructions? 16:04:45 rpg: git pull master your-branch 16:05:12 rpg: I don't know git very well, that might be the problem. 16:05:42 luis: Doesn't that just pull from master to branch? 16:05:56 luis: I was looking for origin ==> master ==> branch 16:06:37 sorry, I meant 'git pull origin master' 16:06:37 is it necessary to be just one command? 16:07:43 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-222-55.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:07:55 stassats: Possibly not. 16:08:03 Well, if you have origin set, you don't need to do a complex git pull, you can just run "git pull" and it'll merge into your current working tree. 16:08:09 rpg: so, 'git checkout your-branch', followed by 'git pull origin master' 16:08:36 luis: OK. Easy to shell-alias, anyway. 16:08:50 willb [n=wibenton@compsci-wifi-39.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:09:17 ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.95.151] has joined #lisp 16:10:05 'git pull --rebase origin master' if you want your changes to be reapplied on top 16:11:21 luis: I'll go off and see if I can figure out what that means. ;-) 16:14:30 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 16:15:04 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:15:49 rpg: the way I think about is that git will pick up from the last common commit between origin/master and your branch, first apply the new origin/master commits, and the applies your local changes on top of those. Does that make sense? 16:16:28 luis: Somewhat to my surprise, yes it makes perfect sense. 16:17:08 luis: so typically I want to do (a) git pull --rebase origin master and (b) git pull --rebase master 16:18:21 hmm, it goes git pull 16:18:22 mcspiff [n=user@DC7CB.WPA.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 16:18:47 Is (b) right? 16:19:26 I assume that's the way to transitively pull the changes from origin into my branch, through my master. 16:22:21 rpg: your 'master' branch is not particularly special, IIUC. It's just another branch. What you want is origin/master 16:22:36 So (a) seems to be what you want. 16:23:29 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.199] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:23:31 luis: I find that my branches are ephemeral. A branch exists as a tool to yield a patch (by diffing against master) and then dies. This, at least, is the way that the org-mode project seems to do things, and for lack of anything better, it's what I do for ASDF. 16:23:53 So for me master is particularly special --- it's a mirror of the central repository. 16:24:34 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-173-58-94-2.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:24:52 salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has joined #lisp 16:24:53 'morning 16:24:58 hello salex 16:25:18 hi beach. how's life? 16:25:39 salex: Let's just say I need a vacation. What about you? 16:25:40 rpg: ok, but if what you want is to update your branch 'foo' you don't need to update 'master' first. 16:26:03 rpg: nor do you need to update branch 'foo' "through" master. 16:26:29 my OS proj just explained how lisp is all linked lists in memory. Ow my brain. 16:26:30 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 16:26:31 beach: same. juggling possible job offers though, so that could be good 16:26:44 salex: Any firm ones? 16:27:07 two mushy but seemingly firming up ones. I should know by end of month 16:27:16 luis: hm. I've always done my patch generation by diffing the branch against master.... 16:27:23 which in this job market is nothing to complain about, I guess 16:27:24 *prof 16:27:39 luis: again, that's the simple org-mode recipe. 16:27:56 -!- cracki [n=cracki@40-224.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:27:56 mcspiff: That's mostly true 16:28:04 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:28:09 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 16:28:16 But why does an OS prof talk about Lisp? 16:28:26 salex: Keep us informed! 16:28:38 tcr: going over trashing 16:28:48 beach: flying around for interviews has of course made havoc with usual work 16:29:01 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-75-17.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:29:05 rpg: so, use 'git diff HEAD origin/master' instead of 'git diff HEAD master' 16:29:19 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:29:36 luis: ah. thanks. I always just did 'git diff master ' 16:29:40 tcr: just mentioned lisp's memory usage patterns as an aside. he likes to point out the world beyond c and java whenever possible 16:29:41 salex: of course 16:29:53 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.223.252] has joined #lisp 16:30:28 rpg: but take this advice with a grain of salt. I've been avoiding actual git learning somewhat succesfully. 16:30:33 beach: but anyway, fingers crossed. Hopefully I'll have good news to report in a couple of weeks (and some stable idea of where I'll be next year) 16:31:02 luis: me, too. It turned into only somewhat successfully yesterday, the first time one of my git pull's failed. 16:31:42 salex: I'll cross my fingers as well (except when I need to type). 16:32:25 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 16:34:33 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 16:34:49 beach: eval evaluates only 2 levels deep correct? 16:35:03 Bigshot_: ? 16:35:14 (setq a 'b) (setq b 'c) (setq c 'd) eval a gives c 16:35:45 Bigshot_: You are confused. 16:35:55 so since (eval a) gives c 16:36:07 Bigshot_: EVAL only evaluates once. 16:36:21 Bigshot_: But EVAL is a function, so before it is called, its arguments get evaluated. 16:36:23 how far down the line does it go? 16:36:34 Bigshot_: EVAL only evaluates once. 16:37:04 oh ok got it 16:37:35 what's the need for eval symbols evaluate themselves too! 16:38:01 Bigshot_: no, they don't. 16:38:07 Bigshot_: the E in REPL is important. 16:38:24 Bigshot_: When you type (eval a), it is recognized as a function call, so its arguments (here a) are evaluated. So EVAL is called with the value of the variable A which is the symbol B. EVAL is applied to the symbol B, which means the value of B as a variable is looked up. This value is C which is returned. 16:39:39 rpg: come to think of it. It's really not great advice, because you need 'git fetch origin master' anyway, so you might as well update your 'master' branch. 16:39:42 Bigshot_: have you considered working your way through an introductory tutorial/book? 16:39:59 you seem to have some pretty fundamental confusions, which is why I ask.... 16:40:40 so there is two times evaluation going on, one "with" eval and another "w/o" eval beach, so what do we call evaluation w/o eval? 16:40:46 Bigshot_: Also, when you ask questions like that, you are better off asking them to eveyone here, as opposed to a particular participant, who might not be available to answer. 16:40:55 luis: At any rate, for what's effectively a locally-cached, not distributed RCS, treating master as a cached for the origin seems like a reasonable tactic for simplification. 16:41:44 Bigshot_: There is no such thing as evaluation without EVAL. 16:41:47 Bigshot_: fwiw, it seems you are conflating binding and evaluation 16:42:02 luis: thanks for your patience working through this with me. 16:43:14 Bigshot_: Actually, I take that back. 16:43:27 Bigshot_: It is called ... "evaluation". 16:43:51 then what is binding? 16:44:15 dynamic binding like in OOP? 16:44:24 Bigshot_: It is time for you to have a look at the glossary section of the Common Lisp HyperSpec. 16:45:00 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-1b51876c5e43b0d6] has joined #lisp 16:45:29 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:46:19 oh so it's like saying b = 5 16:46:27 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 16:46:42 Bigshot_: The concept of `evaluation' is defined in the glossary, and EVAL "Evaluates form in the current dynamic environment and the null lexical environment.". 16:47:08 Bigshot_: If that is C-like syntax, then it would be an assignment as opposed to a binding. 16:49:06 Many languages, in particular so-called scripting languages, conflate assignment and binding; they create a new binding on first assignment. 16:49:06 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:50:04 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:50:05 thus ensuring confusion with nested scopes. 16:51:12 Aye, I haven't yet grokked Python's scoping rules. 16:51:27 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 16:51:27 aren't they empirical ? 16:51:48 ITYWTS ad-hoc 16:52:37 that implies more planning than I'm assuming.... 16:52:57 I meant: "nobody knows. try it" 16:53:06 Let's call it "bolted-on", to use a term Phosphorous wisely avoids. 16:53:29 but yes, that was facetious 16:53:46 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@193.174.12.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:54:03 :-] 16:54:21 -!- vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:54:42 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has joined #lisp 16:54:43 It's probably driven by implementation. Which isn't a bad thing, but sometimes you need frigging academics (buddha tiny, hah!) to drag you out of it 16:56:29 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:58:29 manuel_ [n=manuel@rzdu-ub-141-194.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 16:59:56 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@192.117.29.133.static.012.net.il] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:01:47 thoolihan [n=thooliha@166.205.5.27] has joined #lisp 17:02:23 -!- thoolihan [n=thooliha@166.205.5.27] has quit [Client Quit] 17:02:39 thoolihan [n=thooliha@166.205.5.27] has joined #lisp 17:02:47 younder [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:02:55 -!- thoolihan [n=thooliha@166.205.5.27] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:03:40 why is it that run-program (SBCL) claims to use fork and execve when in fact it calls spawn? 17:06:16 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:07:21 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 17:07:39 damn liers. 17:08:29 there's a FIXME above the apparently out of date comment 17:08:48 ..which probably answers your question 17:12:49 deafmacro [n=user@59.92.158.66] has joined #lisp 17:13:43 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:17 lol, well it messed up my pipe.. 17:18:34 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-36-239.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:19:27 *lnostdal* never got the hang of the unix & piping thing 17:19:39 did have GNU Go hooked up to SBCL a while back though 17:19:57 ..via sb-ext:run-program .. bit of a hassle 17:20:24 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["go pipe!"] 17:21:41 It was.. took all day to figure it out 17:22:26 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:00 dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f02e.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 17:25:30 if we have (setq a 'b) (setq b 'c) (setq c 'd) then if we do (defmacro a (x) `(list ,b)) then this ",b" will get evaluated to "d?? 17:26:33 mogunus [n=marco@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:38 -!- deafmacro [n=user@59.92.158.66] has left #lisp 17:27:49 Bigshot_: TIAS 17:28:10 you don't understand basic stuff and are already messing with macros? 17:28:35 ah i c so it's b is actually c and it evaluates c so it becomes d :) 17:28:46 uh. 17:28:52 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:29:12 b is not actually c, but ok. 17:29:15 s/it's// 17:31:15 lnostdal: what were you doing with gnugo? 17:31:24 Bigshot_: Maybe you should macroexpand it. 17:31:30 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-36-239.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 17:31:46 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-75-17.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:32:22 it says (list c) 17:32:28 serichsen, experimenting with an ajax client .. i even have an old screenshot, heh; http://nostdal.org/lnostdal/temp/sw-go.png 17:32:29 an we get d 17:33:38 Bigshot_: So what is the use of this macro anyway= 17:34:16 hehe nothing just playing around :) 17:34:39 Bigshot_: Why does not (defun a (x) `(list ,b)) do the same? 17:35:06 lnostdal: that looks good (except for White) 17:35:40 you can't use back quote in defun 17:35:46 I can't ? 17:36:16 -!- mcspiff [n=user@DC7CB.WPA.Dal.Ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:36:20 Bigshot_: (defun x () `(why not?)) (x) 17:36:24 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:36:35 Bigshot_: your sloppy guesses are pretty annoying. 17:36:47 CL-USER> `(1 2 ,(+ 3 4) 5 6) => (1 2 7 5 6) 17:36:53 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f706a1d.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [No route to host] 17:37:40 are we still trying to teack Bigshot_ to program? it's been weeks now.... is there no book we could point him to that might be better than explaining whatever random part of lisp he's not understanding today 17:37:41 ? 17:37:59 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:38:17 Bigshot_: Have you read gentle introduction ? It's quite good :) 17:38:38 schme: that would be my choice here too :) 17:38:52 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:39:25 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 17:39:29 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@rzdu-ub-141-194.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [] 17:39:41 minion: tell Bigshot_ about gentle 17:39:41 Bigshot_: please see gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 17:40:18 wow `smoother' i wonder if it pays smoothly too :D 17:40:33 anton` [n=user@77.70.2.99] has joined #lisp 17:40:36 Bigshot_: ???? pays smoothly 17:40:39 what are you on about? 17:40:47 nvm 17:40:56 i believe, "have you read book x" is most frequent question asked 17:41:03 speaking of backquotes, I'm still fairly annoyed we don't have BACKQUOTE in the standard 17:41:03 Bigshot_: lisp programming pays nothing at all ;) 17:41:36 Bigshot_: please, do go away and learn something. feel free to come back when you've worked your way through a basic introduction like above 17:41:37 schme: watch me prove you wrong! 17:41:45 assuming I ever get any customers, that is :) 17:41:46 Bigshot_: i'm willing to pay quite a high price to get my s/n ratio back on track ... and that price is a /kb 17:41:51 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 17:42:05 drewc: gentle has been adviced several days ago too. 17:42:26 mathrick: I was just trying to disencourage Bigshot_ (: 17:42:56 mathrick: But best of luck on your hunt for customers! 17:43:02 thanks 17:43:20 schme: also, *discourage, unless it was deliberate, in which case I will shut up 17:43:42 *sigh* english.. what a silly language. 17:44:11 and by silly, you mean awesomely malleable, right? 17:44:15 schme: bah .. those are french words ;) 17:44:19 well, that is actually one of the few areas where it's fairly logical and regular 17:44:23 By silly I mean "not swedish" ;) 17:44:44 schme: that may be the silliest linguistic definition ever 17:45:03 besides, you like lisp right? you should like english then, same ball-of-mud character 17:45:07 Yeah, well. NOT LISTENING TO YOU. 17:45:07 :P 17:45:08 schme: right, if you're used to a proper Nordic grammar, it's kind of tiresome. Still, I'd object to anyone giving swedish, of all things, as the paragon of "not silly" :) 17:45:29 mathrick: I much appreciate you pointing out discourage there though (: 17:45:37 you don't get to declare things silly if your own language sounds like drunk chipmunks 17:45:40 Swedish, silly? Pah. 17:45:45 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:47 schme: you're quite welcome! 17:46:04 *tic_* has eben talking a lot of Danish lately. Fun! 17:46:06 schme: do you use snus? 17:46:15 tic_: I know Danish quite well, and I can tell you Swedish is all kinds of silly 17:46:15 synic: No, not at all (: 17:46:23 schme: well screw you then 17:46:26 what about gnus? 17:46:26 just kidding :) 17:46:34 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:46:38 mathrick: something else entirely, hah 17:46:45 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 17:46:57 ahaha. 17:47:52 Xach: also, that trick with string-output-stream as a buffer you reddit'd a bit ago is cute 17:48:12 I'd never have guessed that GET-OUTPUT-STREAM-STRING empties the stream 17:48:45 mathrick: why would you try to guess? there's clhs. 17:48:52 mathrick: me too. 17:48:58 pjb: of course, that was the first thing I did when I saw it 17:49:03 hi, I'm not sure why name isn't getting evaluated in this macro to "bar" to produce FOO-BAR instead of FOO-NAME http://paste.lisp.org/display/83587 17:49:04 but it's not something you expect 17:49:13 pjb: i have not used string streams outside of with-output-to-string and with-input-from-string. 17:49:17 clhs: get-output-stream-string 17:49:17 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_ou.htm 17:49:26 -!- ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:49:26 pjb: i didn't really think about the other useful operations you can do with them. 17:49:46 speaking of counter-intuitive, why on earth is SORT destructive? 17:50:37 egn: EMSBFUN 17:50:50 egn: intern-concatenate has no reason to be a macro. 17:51:07 egn: do not use SETF, use LET 17:52:16 pjb: sorry, what do you mean by EMSBFUN, can't find it in the list of built-ins 17:52:29 Error Macro Should Be a FUNction. 17:52:33 ah 17:52:49 mathrick, swedish, silly, danish, sane? o_O 17:52:50 pjb: we should have compilers report that 17:52:56 tic_: verily 17:52:58 k, I made it a macro so I could ,@r, which I don't know how to do not in a backquote 17:53:07 pjb ^ 17:53:07 tic_: as I said, drunk chipmunks 17:53:11 mathrick: simpler to copy the input in linear time than to somehow make a copying sort in-place. 17:53:16 egn: backquote and macros are orthogonal. 17:53:19 egn: backquote has nothing to do with macros 17:53:22 k 17:53:58 pkhuong: yes, but I'd expect that to be called NSORT, same as everything else 17:54:07 with SORT being nicely non-destructive 17:54:18 egn: you can use APPLY to splice an argument list 17:54:30 mathrick: history, and asymetry. 17:54:46 pjb: history I understand, but asymmetry? 17:55:39 Since there's only one sort provided, there's no need to distinguish a non-destructive one from it. 17:55:44 egn: argument names like "r" and "fn" are bad style. Don't make the names shorter than they need to be 17:56:13 mathrick: k, thanks 17:56:35 serichsen: thanks. I'm not sure how to do it in this case, how would I use apply where I would have used (concatenate 'string ,@r) in a backquote? 17:56:47 (apply (function concatenate) 'string r) 17:56:52 tic_: Sure, for instance, why aren't "rolig" and "orolig" opposites in Swedish? 17:56:56 pjb: thanks 17:57:09 clhs apply 17:57:09 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 17:58:29 egn: (apply #'concatenate 'string r) 17:59:00 serichsen: thanks 17:59:00 oh 17:59:01 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:59:06 thanks anyways :) 17:59:08 beach, *lallalala* 17:59:38 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 18:01:57 bughunter2 [n=bughunte@unaffiliated/bughunter2] has joined #lisp 18:02:05 elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:02:31 mathrick: i've been bit by SORT a few times... i agree that NSORT would have been a nice name... but then again i've heard the argument that sorting is in fact a destructive operation, so it's my fault. 18:02:42 -!- elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #lisp 18:03:03 mathrick: i didn't actually believe that argument, and i make an effort to place an imaginary N in front of SORT whenever i see it :) 18:03:22 yeah 18:03:30 it's only destructive if you define it as such 18:03:56 mdavid [n=mdavid@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:04:32 mathrick: well, looking through, say, Knuth ... all sorting operations are in fact defined to sort the input data 'in place'.... so that's the argument (that i don't buy). 18:05:06 drewc: knuth only describes an in-place merge sort? 18:05:12 hmmm. merge sort is usually defined as not in place 18:05:20 moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 18:05:25 Define your own SORT-LIST which is SORT + COPY-LIST; I assume you mostly want non-destructive sort on lists. 18:05:27 pkhuong: ;) 18:05:29 mathrick: it's either destructive or copying 18:05:55 so that doesn't exactly map to the sort of foo & nfoo pattern others have 18:06:14 but i guess that most default sort implmentations use quicksort 18:06:21 tcr: no, really? 18:06:27 of course I defined SORT* already 18:06:30 that's not the point 18:06:35 SORT* is stupid 18:06:37 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:06:49 pkhuong: there is no 'in place' merge sort of course, but we're talking in the context of SORT here.. sorting a single input list. 18:06:50 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 18:06:55 we don't have prior art for "non-destructive version of X" 18:07:05 but we have for "slightly different version of X" 18:07:20 so I went with that, and arrived at X* 18:07:30 what does the N stand for, anyway? 18:07:31 drewc: Uh I believe there are in-place versions of merge-sort 18:07:55 yes, but they are a bit hairy IIRC 18:08:01 serichsen: non-consing 18:08:19 ok, then call it CSORT 18:08:27 tcr: there could well be.... i must point out that i was making an argument that i don't agree with, so phrased it pretty weakly. 18:08:28 drewc: heh? Merge sort is just another sorting algorithm. There are in-place (modulo recursion depth) merge sorts. I think the bitonic sort would qualify. 18:09:09 pkhuong: does not a merge sort require two items to be sorted? 18:09:24 pjb: why would LET be superior to SETF in (defun foo (bar) (setf bar "baz")) VS. (defun foo (bar) (let ((bar "baz")))) if bar gets killed in the scope of FOO in both cases? or would it just be in good practice to use LET? 18:09:41 drewc: that's what recursion is for. 18:09:41 asksol [n=ask@97.218.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:09:44 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-2-194.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 18:09:55 hail 18:10:06 egn: It's clear where scope begins, and ends with LET 18:10:13 egn: replacing bindings is ugly. You mean to introduce a new value, so say what you mean and use LET 18:10:17 -!- asksol [n=ask@97.218.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:10:17 and what tcr says 18:10:25 tcr: mathrick: k, thanks 18:10:34 egn: There's also a point with closuring possible closing over a binding that you accidently later assign to 18:10:38 you can't accidentally introduce global bindings or mutate what you didn't mean to with LET 18:10:53 pkhuong: looks like i need to go back to Knuth :) 18:11:11 someone with deep knowledge of CLOS and/or PCL (in SBCL)? 18:11:13 egn: And then, compilers can reason about LET very easily, not so for SETF 18:11:36 tcr: mathrick: ah k 18:11:41 levy: just ask, Xof might wake up. 18:11:50 levy: my CLOS-fu is strong, my PCL-foo not so. 18:11:52 tcr: people too. 18:12:08 any idea how to produce a lambda form for a generic function that completely inlines all methods and does not refer to any meta data of the original generic function/methods 18:12:12 levy: what scary lib are you making now? 18:12:49 levy: something like . Careful, exponential blow up. 18:12:50 mathrick, just trying to save a few neurons damaged by C++ ;-) 18:13:15 egn: the only downside of LET is that it introduces a new nesting with indentation. This can be a problem when you try to stick to the 80 columns rule. 18:13:28 levy: why would you want a generic function in that case? seems like the whole point of them is to do what you are trying to prevent :) 18:13:31 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-36-239.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:13:57 drewc: make things more static once development is finished. 18:14:05 drewc, because it is a generic function which is already there, and i would like to play with the partial evaluator 18:14:16 the 80 columns rule is the product of a simpler age 18:14:56 tcr: alright. if I'm redefining within a LET, should I use SETF? ie. (let ((foo "bar")) (setf foo "baz")) ? 18:15:11 indeed 18:15:12 my each eye can eat only 40 columns 18:15:18 pkhuong: well that's what sealing is for, as you've pointed out. 18:15:19 A simpler age when humans read code with their own eyeballs? 18:15:19 salex: I dunno about that. At least in English, a line-length of like 60-some characters is supposed to be easiest to read. 18:15:37 sellout: I don't think that research maps well to code 18:15:49 you probably don't want more than 60 char on a *line*, sure 18:15:56 but that's a different issue 18:15:59 salex: 80 columns forever! 18:16:01 egn: depends. It it's the same thing meant to assume a different value, then yes. If it's a new thing, use LET 18:16:13 Research or not, my personal experience agrees that 80 columns is a good width limit. 18:16:19 pkhuong, this sealing stuff is really interesting 18:16:23 mathrick: k 18:16:24 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:16:30 Riastradh: i'm pretty happy with 100 to 120 or so 18:16:46 but I was mostly teasing. I have no problem wiht 80 18:16:59 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-12-193.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [] 18:17:00 That way I can get 4 columns across my monitors :) 18:17:03 salex: "or so" is not a good limit. 18:17:11 i've found that when i don't have the frame at 80, i sometimes write wider without realizing it. but there's some limit i haven't investigated that just seems way too wide. 18:17:32 probably related to whether or not i wrote the code myself... 18:17:45 luis: no, i mean a fixed limit in that range. Beyond 120 seems problematic I guess, not sure how justified that is 18:18:02 xach: hey it will be fun to finally meet up :) do you know a good place to eat in boston? what time were you thinking of coming down? 18:18:21 I personally use 90 columns for my own projects, so that's a soft limit, I wouldn't mind 91,92,93 18:18:21 bulibuta [n=bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has joined #lisp 18:18:33 lukego: the food and drink at the CBC is worth investigating... especially the latter :) 18:18:39 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 18:18:54 77ish without counting closing parens (: 18:19:10 can anyone point me to someplace where I could purchase a LispM? 18:19:19 bulibuta: 18:19:43 bulibuta: ebay, occasionaly 18:19:49 mathrick pasted "An example of proper SETF use" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83593 18:19:49 salex: tried that... 18:19:52 egn: see that 18:19:59 i try to stick near 80 or so, but since i often use extremely-long-and-desriptive-identifiers , i break that rule often. 18:20:01 I personally do not like putting a newline after a binding a variable as in (let ((foo\n(some-form ...)))), that's where I often clash with the 80 columns rule 18:20:03 that's a situation in which you want and need to use SETF 18:20:09 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.183.111] has joined #lisp 18:20:19 tcr: yup, that's a sticking point 18:20:57 I might be crazy and shouted at for asking this, but is anyone using vi(1) while coding in lisp? 18:21:10 Yes, but only on my Lisp machine 18:21:12 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 18:21:18 haha 18:21:52 tcr: WHY 18:22:00 jesus, make-discriminating-expr really is a beast... 18:22:36 mathrick: i'd prefer a return over the setf there : (loop for n in '(1 2 3 4 5) when (eql n 5) do (return (print "i saw five))) 18:23:06 drewc: yes, but it's a deliberately simple example 18:23:06 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:23:35 nah, put your five seeing routine in another function 18:23:35 mathrick: too simple... it doesn't show a good use of SETF if the SETF can be avoided and the function made more efficient ;) 18:24:08 SETF is useful when you need to communicate with a part of code that's not easy to reach because of the structure of the rest of code 18:24:31 lukego: i've had good luck at the cambridge brewing company. if i take the afternoon train i'll be there around 5pm, takes a short while to get over there... 18:24:33 and of course when you keep some state in a closure and need to update it 18:24:52 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 18:25:01 (defun foo (a b &key key1) (setf key1 (ensure-key-property (or key (default-value))) ...) 18:25:03 mathrick: okay, excellent 18:25:06 bulibuta: coding CL without an advanced cl-friendly environment of some sort is, well, somewhat missing the point IMO 18:25:09 asksol [n=ask@97.218.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:25:14 lukego: if nothing else the beer is tasty at CBC. 18:25:24 drewc: the books/tuts/etc seem to be saying the same thing 18:25:34 bulibuta: they don't lie! 18:25:39 On the other hand, it should be rather easy to build a cl-friendly, if spartiate, environment from scratch. 18:25:44 but I don't want to learn a new editor just so that I can code in Lisp... 18:25:53 bulibuta: yes you do.. trust me. 18:25:54 ok CBC it is! 18:26:05 benny` [n=benny@i577A32A1.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:26:08 drewc: okay, thanks 18:26:09 i've never undestood why people don't want to learn new things when learning new things! 18:26:11 Samy [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:22 yo dawg 18:26:36 bulibuta: I admit i used viper-mode for a few weeks when starting with emacs+slime. 18:27:13 bulibuta: now i sometimes type 'vi file' when i'm inside emacs's *ansi-term*. I think i'm better for it. 18:27:45 drewc: They don't want to learn _unnecessary_ new things at the same time ... most languages work just as well in whatever editor you're used to, so people assume a new editor is unnecessary. But with Lisp it's not. 18:27:50 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:28:13 sellout: that's close to what I'm thinking 18:28:14 heh 18:28:16 sellout: the problem is, as a newbie you often aren't a very good judge about what is neccessarey and what isn't 18:28:18 bulibuta: to put it a way that makes sense : vi is a text editor, emacs is a lisp machine. 18:28:28 pretend I spelled that sensibly 18:28:29 drewc: okay 18:28:46 this isn't a problem unless you are dogmatic and/or inflexible about it 18:28:47 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 18:28:47 I'll give emacs a try, I'm don't mind it. 18:28:53 sellout: perhaps that meansthat there is a lack of support for lisp in most other editors :) 18:28:55 I don't mind it 18:29:02 bulibuta: you're not learning a new editor, it's a new paradigm! :) 18:29:09 :-) 18:29:45 *Xach* makes http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/4065/roflbotexcj.jpg for no reason at all 18:29:48 sellout: but to be fair, perhaps it isn't. slime is built to fit lisp very well. It may however still be that cusp is good too, just not that good 18:30:01 madnificent: Well, there's just as much lack of support for other languages in those editors. Not many editors give you a repl for _any_ language. 18:30:11 How do I tell lisp I want a string to include a double quote (and not have the " be treated as a string delimiter)? 18:30:14 Xach: :D 18:30:33 guest5432: backslash to escape a character. 18:30:42 drewc: at the hight of the dot-com sillyness, I (internally only) named a library paradigm, just so we could twit the marketing folks by telling them "by now, I'm off to build a new paradigm" 18:31:03 *bye 18:31:23 sellout: yes, I meant something like that in my second comment. However, support for languages like ruby is probably better in eclipse, than what cusp provides. So perhaps some extra effort could be good for new lispers 18:31:29 salex: i like that :) 18:31:32 perhaps I should try cusp for a few days 18:31:34 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1A33.versanet.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:31:35 -!- benny` is now known as benny 18:31:42 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:31:51 pkhuong: But then the backslash is in the string too: (print "\"hi\"") yields "\"hi\"" 18:32:10 guest5432: you're confused. That's the printed representation of the string; note the enclosing quotes. 18:32:11 salex: that's all good and well until someone reads kunh and demands a paradigm shift :) 18:32:26 pkhuong: Ah 18:32:31 pkhuong: Got it. Thanks. 18:33:21 guest5432: it prints that readably (for the interpreter). Try to use (format T "foo\"bar") 18:33:27 jmbr [n=jmbr@195.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:33:55 ** reader in lisp 18:34:11 madnificent: Yep, got it now. Thanks much 18:34:15 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:34:58 jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 18:35:42 -!- stuart71 [n=user@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:36:24 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit [Client Quit] 18:38:29 drewc: are you coming to boston in august too? 18:38:47 *Xach* is really just trolling for antifuchs-mublag fame 18:39:27 hahaha 18:39:36 so... what emacs version/fork should I use? GNU? xemacs? I don't want to start a war or anything 18:39:46 rms is much nicer to look at than xzibit (: 18:39:54 gnu emacs 22 or 23. 18:40:00 Xach: aren't you on the cover of a book I own? 18:40:02 Xach: is that the Monkey Island font, by the way? 18:40:12 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:40:13 pkhuong: thanks 18:40:16 bulibuta: What OS are you on? 18:40:20 OpenBSD 18:40:42 ok, yeah, then just get 23 from CVS or something. 18:40:42 Xach: Practical Common Lisp I believe 18:41:35 "wanna see my smiling face on the cover of the ..." 18:41:35 egn: phew, yes, that one, sure 18:41:56 antifuchs: don't know. it's pretty common. 18:42:01 caslon antique is it 18:42:09 it looked a little like it 18:42:18 Xach: i will not be coming to boston.. shame really, it would be fun, but i'll be sailing :) 18:42:24 bit vectorified, though (: 18:42:26 not too blocky 18:42:29 sailing to boston? 18:43:22 Boston has a harbour. Plenty of boats sail there! 18:43:30 lispm [n=joswig@e177125219.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:43:48 if you start sailing west right now, you might make it in time. 18:43:59 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:44:09 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:44:31 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 18:45:27 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:45:29 through the north pole? 18:46:03 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.0.12] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:46:51 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@63.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:47:08 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@195.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:47:13 *Xach* thought un-Americans knew better geography than that 18:49:31 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 18:49:39 Xach: but, through the north pole is more fun 18:49:42 perhaps he thought drewc was in siberia 18:49:56 isn't there a cli version for emacs? just the ugly gtk one? 18:50:13 bulibuta, emacs -nw 18:50:17 thanks! 18:50:21 there is a beautiful xaw3d 18:50:39 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:50:49 I'm more of a text-mode guy 18:51:01 but thanks for the suggestion 18:51:24 emacs is pretty text-moddy, just wait till you abandon your terminal emulator 18:51:28 bulibuta: just disable GTK elements 18:51:51 -nw is just what I want so far 18:51:58 stassats: what does that mean? 18:52:06 text-moddy 18:52:33 there isn't plenty of graphics in emacs 18:54:23 bulibuta: http://plasek.rootnode.net/screenshots/2009-07-14_19:53_1280x800.jpg <--- Emacs with Xft (there's is GTK, but it's nearly invisible) 18:54:42 and IMHO it handles keyboard better in X11 than in terminal 18:55:07 again in jpg... 18:55:15 stassats: what's wrong with jpg? 18:55:25 it's awful for screenshots 18:55:33 -!- novaburst [i=nova@sourcemage/mage/novaburst] has quit ["leaving"] 18:55:37 people bashed me on the head for screenshots in png, due to having them quite big :P 18:55:49 bash them back .. heh :) 18:55:51 p_l: tell 'em to get broadband. 18:56:21 schme: I consider a webpage over 50kb a big one :P 18:56:27 Why? 18:56:40 *stassats* doesn't count kilobytes 18:56:40 what happened to window 8? 18:56:50 rather, screen 18:57:05 schme: because I started on 14.4 kbit modem :) 18:57:05 -!- bughunter2 [n=bughunte@unaffiliated/bughunter2] has left #lisp 18:57:22 p_l: That's neat. I started on 900bps ;) 18:57:39 p_l: But I don't live in the stoneage no more! 18:57:50 ramus`: screens without any windows on them are not shown on statusbar unless they are currently on display 18:57:50 http://bulibuta.sdf1.org/tmp/2009-07-14-215646_1440x900_scrot.png <-- this is how I like my desktop 18:57:57 oh, heh 18:58:01 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 18:58:04 Xach: if i started sailing west now, i could make it for august 2010 perhaps :) 18:58:04 oh my gosh 18:58:08 so what you're proposing to me p_l is not exactly my style 18:58:09 schme: two years on GPRS made me return to stoneage :P 18:58:09 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-5-186.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:58:45 bulibuta: color schemes are easily switched, although getting one down isn't easy :) 18:59:10 its not about the color, its about being inside a term :-) 18:59:11 well if we are all screendumping... http://imagebin.ca/view/P67G2bRs.html 18:59:17 bulibuta: SDF user, I see? 18:59:20 that's a real desktop! 18:59:22 p_l: yeap, meta 19:00:04 I also do gopher 19:00:16 but people don't seem to enjoy me posting gopher links :-) 19:00:20 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 19:00:32 p_l: I'm only on 10mbit but I still don't consider 50kb webpage big :P 19:00:35 Do you also steal lollipops from babys? 19:01:07 heh. my desktop is one big emacs window, and one bug firefox window. I was thinking of writing my own window manager that just switches between the two :) 19:01:19 xwem maybe? 19:01:29 drewc: what I'm using is pretty much the same, its called scortwm 19:01:41 well, i use stumpwm, so i'm hapopy 19:01:42 happy 19:01:53 schme: while in uni I'm on 40GBit, but I got used to dealing with networks that resemble barely-working interplanetary comms 19:02:08 p_l: screw 'em! use png ! 19:02:13 -!- zophy [n=sy@24.111.6.242] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:02:18 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-20-23.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:02:40 the only thing that's not lisp on my desktop is firefox, and i'm hacking on a webkit based CL browser in my spare time :) 19:02:40 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:02:56 schme: future screenshots will have PNG, i changed the line in my screenshot script :P 19:02:56 webkit seems to be the new buzzword 19:03:25 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 19:03:35 -!- Guest38826 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 19:04:29 bulibuta: from my brief forays into webkit-land, there is good reason for that... it's pretty damn nice, and plays well with others. 19:05:08 midori is going the wrong way, and I'm not seeing any other close enough to mature browsers based on it 19:05:43 hmm 19:06:24 that's the third go player I found in the Lisp community today 19:06:40 here I am! 19:07:01 who else is playing? 19:07:52 I 19:07:57 manuel___ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 19:08:14 nice, do you also play online? 19:08:19 or just at your local go club? 19:08:21 sometimes 19:08:30 same here, mostly at the club 19:08:37 what rank are you? 19:08:41 2 dan 19:08:59 okay sensei 19:09:04 pfft 19:09:19 0000000 19:09:24 what does 2 dan mean? 19:09:27 I only started playing since december 19:09:46 stassats: do you know go? 19:10:07 i played once a long time ago 19:10:18 ok 19:10:22 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:10:36 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 19:10:42 stassats: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_(rank) 19:10:44 stassats: that you are no longer a simple student, but a master, afaik, starting with 1 dan (commonly called black belt in many martial arts) upto 9 dan (in most arts that use it) 19:10:45 i looked up, 2 dan is not so cool 19:11:02 nah 19:11:15 stassats: you don't know what you're talking about 19:11:21 or you're just teasing 19:11:30 I'm just a run-of-the-mill amateur 19:12:42 heh. Actual understanding of what which rank really means depends on particular art, I guess 19:13:02 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.183.111] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:13:15 if serichsen was 9 dan, that'd be cool 19:13:24 the strongest amateurs are 6 dan, I take four stones handicap against them 19:13:34 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 19:14:39 What's a professional go player? 19:14:56 there are professional organizations in asia 19:15:04 japana, koreea, china 19:15:08 i'm about 13k 19:15:15 Demosthenex: me too 19:15:25 i play on KGS in spurts 19:15:28 serichsen: So like someone here, and a member of the ACM? 19:15:30 i was up to 11k last winter 19:15:42 acm? 19:15:55 KGS has a way of overranking you 19:16:17 bulibuta: if you don't play for a while, your rank increases because it is relative to your opponents who kept climbing 19:16:18 serichsen: association of computing machinery 19:16:21 usually you're two levels behind what KGS tells you, at least at DDK or SDK level 19:16:24 there's a short period of reconciliation when you start up again 19:16:33 tcr: it is really hard to become a pro 19:16:44 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:16:46 yeah, but if you play on oro or igs you'll see the difference 19:16:54 Well anyway let's move on to Lisp 19:16:54 i was playing with the AGA go club in cleveland, and they put me at 13k. it was fairly accurate ;] 19:16:58 tcr: there are only a handful of new pros each year, and the competition is stiff 19:17:02 tcr: yeah ok 19:17:08 would lisp benefit a ranking system? 19:17:10 bah lisp. 19:17:18 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:17:20 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 19:17:22 Alvar [n=alvar@h49n2fls303o885.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:17:32 so i'm looking for an example of using a macro which iterates over its arguments... 19:17:33 stassats: programming in general would benefit, except that we can't make one work, see certificates 19:18:13 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #lisp 19:19:37 Demosthenex: like, say, DOLIST ? 19:20:09 i'm not sure how to loop over args in a macro... 19:20:11 drewc: maybe he means like DEFSTRUCT, iterating over the slots... 19:20:20 http://paste.lisp.org/display/83596 19:20:46 Demosthenex: there's always SACLA loop if you're really daring : http://homepage1.nifty.com/bmonkey/lisp/sacla/html/lisp/loop.lisp.html 19:21:07 yeah, i'm making a class for postmodern, but i'm extracting the list dynamically and wanted to define the class using the list of items 19:21:08 Demosthenex: don't write a macro. Write a function! 19:21:25 pjb: a function to make a class? 19:21:31 Demosthenex: there is no difference between looping inside a macro and looping outside a macro.. a loop is a loop. 19:21:38 Demosthenex: one that transoforms name and item-list into a datastructure, a list containing the DEFCLASS symbol, the name, ... and a list of processed items. 19:21:42 Demosthenex: yes. 19:21:55 Call it gee-it-s-a-macro*. 19:22:09 and then evaluate the return? 19:22:22 And then just hook it up: (defun gee-it-s-a-macro (name item-list) (gee-it-s-a-macro* name item-list)) 19:22:46 pjb: assuming you mean DEFMACRO there ^ 19:22:51 mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068128186.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:54 Right. 19:23:03 <*^.^*> 19:23:06 why would that be better than a macro? 19:23:25 Demosthenex: because it's easier to debug. 19:23:38 Demosthenex: and since you know already how to write a function, it should be easier too. 19:24:12 Demosthenex: if you can write a function that will output the form you wish to compile, then making into a macro is easy. 19:24:18 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has left #lisp 19:24:28 Just: (defmacro gee-it-s-a-macro (name item-list) (gee-it-s-a-macro* name item-list)) 19:24:30 ok, i can see that 19:24:55 but as to the original question, couldn't i loop over the item list in the macro itself/ 19:24:56 gee-it-s-a-macro* being a function (you chosed a bad name for it of course). 19:25:07 thats a sample :P 19:25:08 Demosthenex: why do you ask? 19:25:25 well that was the only part that got me, was how to loop over a parameter in a macro 19:25:27 Demosthenex: you shouldn't have to ask that question, if you understand what macros are. 19:25:40 Demosthenex: you know how to loop in a function don't you? 19:25:49 sure 19:25:50 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 19:25:53 Demosthenex: then write a function. 19:26:01 And then call that function from the macro. 19:26:30 *Xach* wonders if this hurdle will be cleared only to discover the real hurdle is run time vs macroexpand time 19:26:56 -!- mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068128186.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:27:16 Xach: don't you think calling a generating function from the macro separates clearly run-time vs. macro-expansion time? 19:28:20 i think doing it pjb's way makes it very clear, but i'm not a noob anymore. 19:28:36 i'm primarily confused by the quoting in a defmaco 19:28:42 drewc, but then you hate macros? 19:28:46 Demosthenex: what quoting? 19:28:58 tic_: hate? strong word. 19:29:14 Demosthenex: backquote is not quoting. 19:29:25 drewc, true, true. I rarely (never?) use it myself. 19:29:35 Demosthenex: as I mentionned, you want to build a list. So: (list 'defclass name '() ...) 19:29:46 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:29:46 -!- TR2N [n=email@89-180-180-228.net.novis.pt] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:29:46 -!- bulibuta [n=bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:29:46 -!- rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:29:46 -!- jyujin [n=jyujin@d221-88-81.commercial.cgocable.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:29:46 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:29:46 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-54-62.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:29:46 -!- foobie2 [i=foo123@c139-243.icpnet.pl] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:29:46 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:29:46 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:29:46 -!- keithr [n=user@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:29:46 -!- Axioplase_ [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:29:48 mornfall_ [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 19:29:50 weirdo [i=foo123@c139-243.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:29:51 Axioplase_ [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 19:29:51 keithr` [n=user@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:51 bulibuta [n=bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has joined #lisp 19:29:53 jyujin [n=jyujin@d221-88-81.commercial.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:54 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-54-62.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 19:29:57 pjb: i'm already going down that road ;] 19:29:59 Demosthenex: macros are functions that take source code as arguments and return source code to be compiled. that's the insight that helped me understand things. 19:29:59 rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 19:30:03 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:30:04 pjb: yes. and then we will find that Demosthenex is doing something like (let ((class-name (foo)) (slots (bar))) (gee-macro class-name slots) ...) 19:30:11 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 19:30:31 We 19:30:34 'll see. 19:30:37 TR2N [i=email@89-180-180-228.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 19:30:46 *Xach* waits with excitement 19:32:16 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:19 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 19:33:28 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:36:11 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:37:09 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:38:22 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 19:40:15 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-36-239.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 19:41:59 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-53-236.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:26 milanj [n=milan@79.101.79.160] has joined #lisp 19:44:10 -!- Suprano is now known as Marenz 19:44:44 -!- Marenz is now known as Suprano 19:45:14 rouslan [n=Rouslan@pool-71-255-139-207.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:05 Demosthenex: I don't know whether it helps, but there is a chapter on macros in On Lisp, a book by Paul Graham which is available on-line (and in a Debian package for that matter). 19:46:50 pbusser3: just one chapter? :D 19:47:35 -!- mornfall_ is now known as mornfall 19:48:09 Is it "shouldn't do either", or "shouldn't do neither"? I want to say it should not do both of two choices 19:48:49 drewc: I'm not sure, at least one chapter. 19:49:16 -!- Alvar [n=alvar@h49n2fls303o885.telia.com] has left #lisp 19:49:25 Alvar [n=alvar@h49n2fls303o885.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:49:28 pbusser3: The only point of On Lisp are macros. It's a pretty bad introduction to pretty much anything else in Common Lisp 19:50:34 tcr: For me it is the only introduction I have in CL at the moment. And for the price (i.e. free), I'm not complaining. :-) 19:50:48 minion: tell pbusser3 about pcl 19:50:49 pbusser3: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 19:51:00 Practical Common Lisp is also available online 19:51:04 It is? 19:51:08 Gimme! :-) 19:51:08 and a much better introduction to the language 19:51:24 pbusser3: On Lisp is like a book on guns that starts with how to shoot yourself in the foot, and then moves on to shooting the feet of others. 19:51:42 it's useful to know that feet can be shot, but it's not how guns are usually used in the real world. 19:53:08 Heh! 19:53:17 They are used to shoot people in the head, that's correct. 19:53:19 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:53:44 "Golden Common LISP: A Hands-On Approach" ~ David Steele, 1989. Not recommending this book, it's just the first time I had every seen reference to it and thought I'd share. 19:53:48 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:54:05 speaking of Lisp books. How's that ANSI CL by Apress coming along? 19:54:11 tmh: i've read it... i think i may even have a copy lying around. 19:54:24 tic_: Dead. 19:54:33 For some time. 19:54:58 Hm. Let's hope the "Lisp outside the box"(?) will be finished. 19:55:02 did we really need an reference book for ANSI CL? cltl2 + clhs is good enough for me. 19:55:06 drewc: Cool, I'd never heard of it until just now. 19:55:19 Don't waste your time reading all books available, at some point delve in and hack! 19:55:32 hack? manual labour?! 19:55:34 tmh: it's nothing special .. all lisp books of that era are trying very hard to be PAIP and not doing very well at it :) 19:55:54 minion: tell pbusser3 about cltl2 19:55:56 pbusser3: please see cltl2: "Common Lisp the Language, 2nd ed" is a book by Guy Steele that describes the state of Common Lisp as it was partway through the ANSI process. http://www.cliki.net/cltl2 19:56:10 The only things a new Lisp book to cover would be the intrinsics of the pathname system, FORMAT, and the pretty-printer. Yummy! 19:56:21 pbusser3: cltl2 is also available online, and is a lot better than On Lisp (or anything else by graham). 19:56:21 mm pathnames. 19:56:45 drewc: i think i got that. its just building the source that is returned that confuses me, i'm in my fourth week off and on in lisp ;] 19:56:49 I like the Common Lisp quick reference "brochure", but still getting comfortable with the notation. 19:57:08 pbusser3: i've got Practical Common Lisp in hardcover, Successful Lisp, On Lisp, and a few others in electronic form ;] 19:57:11 tcr: besides Keene there is not much on CLOS, especially protocol design. 19:57:20 drewc: Do you have a URL perhaps? 19:57:29 Keene's good. Wish there was more of that. 19:57:39 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:57:45 There is a whole book about CLOS AFAIK. 19:57:45 AMOP is a bit to that end. But not really at the same time. 19:57:46 minion: tell pbusser3 about cltl2 19:57:49 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 19:57:50 pbusser3: please see cltl2: "Common Lisp the Language, 2nd ed" is a book by Guy Steele that describes the state of Common Lisp as it was partway through the ANSI process. http://www.cliki.net/cltl2 19:57:56 *pbusser3* hugs minion 19:58:07 I didn't enjoy Keene that much. I found it pretty repeative 19:58:16 drewc: well, there is AMOP 19:58:25 tic_: AMOP really helped me to grok advanced CLOS, and i think it's one of the most important books on programming ever :) 19:58:28 drewc: I've not read it in detail, but have you looked at "Object-Oriented Programming: The CLOS Perspective" ~ Andreas Paepcke ? I bought it mainly for the last chapter, but the rest of the book looks informative. 19:58:34 I must confess that I only skimmed to the code, though 19:58:39 s/to/through/ 19:59:02 bah, i missed tic_'s comment 19:59:04 tmh: I have never been able to find a copy. I like paepcke's 'user level language crafting' paper quite a bit. 19:59:04 drewc, it is really cool, yeah. I've still to read through the last few chapters. Hm. 19:59:06 I like AMOP as well. I've read targeted sections, but not the whole thing. 19:59:13 -!- tic_ is now known as tic 19:59:18 tmh: What's special about the last chapter? 19:59:43 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 19:59:44 luis annotated #83383 "slightly better now with patch" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83383#1 20:00:06 tmh: i read it cover to cover a few times ... the big picture (designing proper meta-protocols) really helped open my eyes. 20:01:15 drewc: You can get the Paepcke book directly from the MIT press website. 20:01:16 drewc: Make sure to read the papers by Kiczales, too 20:01:23 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:01:32 tcr: I agree with you about Keene, and i think a good CLOS book is a niche waiting to be filled. I've got the outline and a few chapters of my book written, and it's clos-heavy :) 20:02:00 tcr: i've not only read kiczales, but discussed meta-protocols with him over beers :) 20:02:08 i should buy the dead tree version of onlisp 20:02:17 why? 20:02:21 tcr: He's at UBC after all... one nice thing about living in BC :) 20:02:30 drewc: Ah nice, I'd be interested would happened to their scheme compiler with a MOP 20:02:33 salex: because the PDF isn't indexed 20:02:37 pbusser3: It was interesting to me because everyone gripes about the cost of method dispatch. 20:02:48 drewc: I'd be interested in what happened 20:03:04 It's exactly the thing I'm dreaming of 20:03:19 -!- hbock [n=user@198.7.232.249] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:03:37 about scheme with MOP? 20:03:38 tcr: he's of the opinion that MOPs are too smart for average programmers and has given up on them in favour of aspects and the like. 20:03:41 Demosthenex: On Lisp in dead-tree form sells for $150 or more. Besides, the PDF version is indexed. 20:04:00 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:04:03 pbusser3: the one i downlaoded isn't 20:04:23 stassats: a meta compiler system 20:04:29 Demosthenex: Mine has a large index at the end of the book. I got mine from the Debian onlisp-pdf package. 20:04:39 pbusser3: no no... PDF index 20:04:48 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 20:05:19 Demosthenex: Oh, I see what you mean, a PDF index. *shrug* It's free, so I'm not complaining. 20:05:49 Demosthenex: The dead tree index is there though. 20:05:55 drewc: Uh but he argued perfectly in one of his papers where he defined a "wizard" to be one who can see through the abstraction layers. A MOP just provides a tool box for such someone not to influence the lower layers by kludges on the higher level 20:06:37 MOP = Message Object Protocol? Or what? 20:06:46 Meta 20:06:47 Meta Object Protocol 20:06:53 Ah ok. 20:06:55 tcr: i think his response to that would be along the lines of "you don't make money catering to wizards". It's amazing what an AI winter will do to someone :) 20:07:07 Heh! 20:07:22 tcr: we had a few disagreements, i assure you ;) 20:07:37 In that case you'd be better off designing libraries for PHP developers. 20:07:51 where is the fun in that? 20:08:24 serichsen: They are usually not wizards. :-) 20:08:40 Especially not if I look at the many security bugs found in PHP using software. 20:08:45 stassats: look at the xerox parc ftp, the papers are available there 20:08:49 so, you rather want to make fun of them? 20:08:50 tcr: i think i may have most of the audio of the q/a session available somewhere if you'd like to have a listen... IIRC the audio quality was horrid though ... 20:09:08 serichsen: I can't make fun of myself all the time you know. :-P 20:09:38 drewc: I'd have liked to meet him at ELS, but I found none who wanted to travel with me. 20:09:45 drewc: (How do you pronounce his last name?) 20:10:12 kick-ZAL-es IIRC 20:10:49 depending on the heritage, cz may be pronounced similiar to sh 20:11:45 could be... i can't recall if i recall... 20:12:06 drewc: Gregor wasn't at ELS. (In general, it's unlikely that all members of a Programme Committee actually go to the event) 20:12:24 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:33 I've always pronounced it as ki-tsch-ales. Meh. 20:13:16 Krystof: What's the task of people on the commitee? To select the submissions? 20:13:20 maybe i'll track down the audio talk and see if i can hear him introduce himself. 20:13:31 or i suppose i could just email him and ask. 20:13:39 tcr: right, to help with reviews and suggest things for the programme 20:13:42 drewc, sort-of like english.au / swedish.au. :-) 20:14:26 Where is Kiczales from? 20:15:55 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-180-210.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:16:00 pbusser3: i think he was born at MIT, but grew up at PARC ;) 20:16:27 tic: "my name is leenoos ...." :) 20:18:01 *drewc* loves iswitchb-mode ... can't believe i just found out about it last week. 20:18:23 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:19:15 drewc: hehe. I'd go mad without iswitchb :) 20:20:05 p_l: five years i've been using emacs, but only this year have i decided to actually learn it :) 20:20:28 will take another 5 years 20:20:42 org-mode is what put me over the edge... i love org-mode. 20:21:02 stassats: 10 more likely .. i wasted the first five just getting by ;) 20:21:11 i read emacs manual on sundays 20:21:16 org! haaha! 20:21:40 org rocks. 20:21:46 org is why i'm learning lisp. 20:22:00 (yes, elisp is a minor backwoods dialect, so i learn cl first) 20:22:01 *drewc* has a cl-org-mode in the works. 20:22:19 Demosthenex: a lot of org is written using CL anyware 20:22:20 seen the videos? 20:22:23 anyway* 20:22:33 drewc, I prefer "Hej, det här är Linus Torvalds och jag uttalar Linux: Linux" :-) Although it is funny that his book "Just for fun" has the Swedish translation attributed to his sister? After all, he seems to be a Swedish-speaking Fin. 20:23:07 What is rog-mode? 20:23:19 pbusser3: organizer for emacs 20:23:19 pbusser3: it's this thing that google knows about. 20:23:25 Ok. 20:23:31 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-181-151.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:23:36 tic: I'd assume that translating your own book is like writing it twice 20:23:40 org-mode changed my life 20:23:44 for what it's worth :P 20:23:46 pbusser3: organizer, folding outline, authoring language, scheduler, todo task and project manager, and the kitchen sink just for good measure 20:23:54 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:23:57 tcr, could be. what implications does that have? 20:23:58 tic: Linus is a Swedish speaking Fin yes. 20:24:01 tcr, bored to death? *:) 20:24:10 i've been using org-mode for literate programming... so very nice. 20:24:17 drewc: how about org-mode for climacs? 20:24:29 drewc: seen the videos? 20:24:35 slyrus_: it's coming... on my list of things to do :) 20:24:41 Demosthenex: I see. 20:24:42 Demosthenex: yes. 20:24:47 Grr. So much fancy things for Emacs. Must...fight...the...urge 20:24:53 drewc: the google on and the houston one? 20:24:56 many, even 20:25:04 Demosthenex: and a few more. 20:25:09 drewc: i'm the houston guy 20:25:23 Demosthenex: cool! thanks for the tips :) 20:25:30 glad you enjoyed it 20:25:41 though i got some flak for the first video being more on xargs than org 20:25:43 *laugh* 20:25:54 Demosthenex: yeah, i skipped that part :) 20:26:11 tmh pasted "Explicit generic function defintion." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83600 20:26:40 for other folks reference, http://article.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.orgmode/8547 20:27:03 tmh: Does SBCL complain? 20:27:07 drewc: i still run my business and every project out of org 20:27:07 clhs defclass 20:27:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm 20:27:09 No 20:27:16 tmh: yes, do so... in a protocol.lisp. 20:28:05 khisanth_ [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-179.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:10 -!- khisanth_ [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-179.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:28:12 tmh: i'm of the opinion that a file full of DEFGENERIC's is excellent documentation for the protocol, and helps to define what's public and what's not. 20:28:22 Some evening fun, before sleepy time: http://arcanux.org/lambdacats/static.jpg *wanders off* 20:29:14 Demosthenex: i've been using org for everything too.. my clients really appreciate getting nicely formatted reports, and i've found out that i was under-billing myself, so org-mode has made me money :) 20:29:46 drewc: yep 20:30:02 drewc: i'm a huge fan of exporting. need tohelp tinker with the latex exporter 20:30:19 drewc: I've been reaching the same conclusion. I haven't come up with a method for organizing the DEFGENERIC definitions, yet. 20:30:46 oh god, i just opened a perl script i've got to update and it looks like gibberish. i must be learning lisp well. 20:30:58 tmh: i like to include a protocol.lisp that defines the generics and some abstract base classes. 20:31:01 protocols.lisp is not a bad idea. I've also been playing with putting things in defpackage.lisp, in addition to the package definition. 20:31:36 tmh: i don't like that ... package.lisp is for packages, i would be upset to find defgenerics in there! 20:31:53 defgenerics would be upset too 20:32:53 tmh: see http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/repos/ucw-core/src/rerl/protocol.lisp for a good (imo) example 20:33:00 drewc: Hah, well, there is a fair amount of aesthetics involved here, and I haven't quite found an appealing approach. 20:33:09 *are* 20:33:10 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@204.194.78.3] has quit [] 20:35:38 indeed, it's almost a purely aesthetic decision. looking through a few clos-using codebases (Xach's, pcos's, segv's) should give you some direction. 20:36:22 But I definitely agree with adding a DEFGENERIC form in the pasted case. I just wanted a little feedback to see if I was being too pedantic. 20:37:40 tmh: i think if you are exporting generic functions as part of your interface/protocol/whatever you call it, then there should be defgenerics. 20:37:51 ... with a docstring! 20:37:59 oh yes, that's really the point :) 20:38:46 Definitely. I think that is recommended in Keene. Probably wouldn't hurt to scan through that again to refresh myself on the style recommendations. 20:39:29 doesn't keene also recommend MAKE-FOO constructor functions? 20:40:27 Yep. I generally use them for input validation or to transform the input into the proper form for the object. 20:40:51 why not a method on shared-initialize? 20:41:23 if you are exporting classes as part of your protocol, you should expect users to make-instance them... or even (gasp!) subclass them :) 20:42:20 I suspected you were going to suggest that. Mainly because I had not gotten that far in my study of CLOS when I started using MAKE-FOO. I also haven't studied that approach enough to know how to properly use it. 20:42:32 fair 'nuff :) 20:43:22 i have used make-foo's, but generally only when the class of the made FOO might change based on the arguments. 20:43:48 I can think of a case, though, where I'm probably going to end up learning the shared-initialize approach because I'm running into problems with the MAKE-FOO approach and I do want to export classes and enable the user to subclass them. 20:43:59 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:09 (defun make-action (&key (class *default-action-class*) ...) ...) etc. 20:44:34 so, since there are a number of org users here: does anyone synchronize org/diary with google calendar in any interesting way? 20:45:01 I just use the org agenda 20:45:02 Hmm, that also reminds me that I don't think the MAKE-FOO and shared-initialize are mutually exclusive. 20:45:13 and I keep *.org in git for use everywhere 20:45:14 Krystof: i'm working on using the API do to round trips, but have not gotten far. 20:45:25 Krystof: for the basics i just use the ical export. 20:45:57 kleppari: my desire to sync to my google phone makes me use google calendar :) 20:46:08 does emacs run on android yet? 20:46:12 drewc: ah, neat idea 20:46:32 drewc: well, SSH works from my nokia, I can ssh into a box and run emacs in a terminal session :P 20:46:57 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslgk008.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:46:57 ssh is pretty damn nice on the HTC Dream, and i do have an emacs open on my phone right now... 20:47:09 kleppari: so do I, but there are some group google calendars that are important 20:47:16 but emacs was not designed for use from a small keyboard lacking modifiers :) 20:47:25 drewc: you have a htc dream? 20:47:30 kleppari: T 20:47:35 drewc: reliable? 20:47:47 so far so good.... best phone i've ever used. 20:47:54 (had nokia's before) 20:47:58 nokias 20:48:02 minion: thwap to me 20:48:03 drewc: please look at thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 20:48:07 -!- ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.95.151] has left #lisp 20:48:09 there's certainly emacs for the jailbroken iphone, tho I can't imagine it's terribly usable 20:48:19 a big client of mine had a bunch of htc diamonds(I think) - terribly unreliable 20:48:22 ah, the channel has an apostrophe abuse policy? :) 20:48:26 'reboot the phone' was a common sentance.. :P 20:48:29 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:48:46 drewc: have you been able to do anything fun with it? 20:48:52 open api, etc? 20:49:03 kleppari: i have not rebooted the phone since i got it ... however the version of android that runs here in .ca is significantlt different from the 'merkan version. 20:49:03 kleppari: It has a camera, doesn't it? 20:49:24 kleppari: i have not written anything for it yet... still exploring the apps available in the markey. 20:49:24 drewc: really? They don't use a standard model globally? 20:49:29 market. 20:49:33 tmh: who? 20:49:45 tmh: ah, for fun? :P 20:49:51 rsynnott: no, not at all.. the software is tailored to the provider. 20:49:54 kleppari: Yeah, the phone. ;-) 20:50:02 drewc: on androids? Ugh 20:50:12 I thought that practice went out a few years back 20:50:50 I really like my nokia e51 - can't stand touchscreens.. 20:50:53 rsynnott: you can simply flash it with the mainline apparently... i have not done so though. 20:51:51 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["bye bye"] 20:51:58 kleppari: i had a nice nokia with a full keyboard etc... but it had one fatal flaw. 20:52:08 No camera? 20:52:10 i didn't float. 20:52:12 it* 20:52:29 I don't think there are many that do... :P 20:52:38 this is a common flaw, as i've noticed :) 20:52:42 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:52:46 drewc: does your current phone float? 20:52:55 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:53:04 stassats: it does actually, when well wrapped in ziplocs. 20:53:09 iphone dropped in a pool, don't know if it is legit, looks good. -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qbWjaW25mQ 20:53:31 stassats: this is common practice 'round these parts :) 20:54:09 that said, the htc dream is amazing... google skymap is worth the price all on it's own IMO. 20:54:15 rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:48 pointing your phone at the sky and having a map of what you're looking at come up... priceless for a sailor learning celestial navigation. 20:55:03 why is that phone specific? 20:55:04 the interface looks like gnome 20:55:09 well - the bar at the top does 20:55:32 HTC makes good phones, IMHO. Software can cause problems, sometimes, but it's often due to software :D 20:55:43 kleppari: events appear as icons on that bar, you drag it open and see a list of things that happened. 20:56:06 in an actual dragging motion? 20:56:09 does that make sense to use? 20:56:14 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 20:56:27 kleppari: yeah... you touch the bar and drag the finger downwards. easy. 20:56:53 flashing some of the newer HTCs is troublesome, however :/ three different software packages that have to be in compatible versions, urk 20:58:05 drewc: what does just touching the bar do? 20:58:23 btw, there's some support for Clojure on Android, plus any ARM-compatible lisp should work native (it's just that Android doesn't give any guarantees that you will have full access to installation of native code) 20:58:25 -!- Muld [n=wr23@88-196-32-41-dsl.noe.estpak.ee] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:58:46 Jules_ [n=Jules@cp1359485-a.landg1.lb.home.nl] has joined #lisp 20:59:18 kleppari: no, you need to make the downward motion to open it fully. 20:59:26 p_l: when do we usians get android from anyone other than tmobile, do you know? 20:59:41 drewc: yes, I understand, I'm just wondering what happens if you just tap the bar 21:00:23 I'm trying to imagine how the interface is to use - I still think the command line is the pinnacle of human technical achievements ;-) 21:00:28 kleppari: the bar doubles in size when you tap it, showing a 'drawer' like thingie that indicates you should drag it open. 21:00:37 ah, ok, foolproof :) 21:00:43 rpg: you can buy dev phone from google 21:01:05 p_l: cool! 21:01:12 kleppari: yeah, the entire interface is quite intuitive... i'm quite happy with it. 21:01:22 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:01:51 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:01:57 talking about intuitive.. I couldn't turn off a bang & olufsen television set earlier today. 21:02:05 kleppari: there are some buttons as well, it's not just a touch screen... i have "phone, home, back, power/cancel. menu + the trackball" 21:02:25 you have a trackball? 21:02:29 :D 21:02:40 _love_ the trackball 21:02:41 now I want one! :( 21:03:07 $399 without a contract? that's not *too* bad... 21:03:38 buy one unlocked on ebay... you should be able to do better than that. 21:04:54 that said, i signed up for a 3 year contract to get mine for $150... i plan on being here for exactly 3 more years, so it worked for me. 21:05:14 drewc: where do you plan to go ? 21:05:24 what if the phone breaks down within the 3 year period? 21:05:48 fe[nl]ix: French Polynesia i think 21:06:17 fe[nl]ix: somewhere in that general direction anyway 21:06:59 why are "if" and "cond" macros and not functions in recursive programming? 21:07:12 how would they cause infinite loop? 21:07:17 kleppari: well, i'm probably screwed then. I have a warranty, but i don't think it's 3 years. 21:07:24 Bigshot_: if is a special operator. 21:08:58 Bigshot_: They cause infinite loop when you don't properly define the termination. 21:09:14 *loops* 21:09:33 rolly1975 [n=rory@5ac03a58.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 21:09:34 i know i am talking about "why are they not defined as a `function'? 21:09:42 *tmh* checks his vacuum-insulated mug for coffee. 21:09:43 Bigshot_: Try it 21:09:55 Bigshot_: that question belies all sorts of wrong assumptions and also shows me that you have not read gentle introduction yet.... this is not 'intro to programming 101', we're not going to spoon feed you an education in software development... do me a favour and read an introductory text and do the exercises as they come... by the time you get to IF and COND things might make sense. 21:10:04 Bigshot_: Then try to write a recursive function involving your MY-IF 21:10:16 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:14 chris2_ [n=chris@dslb-094-216-084-022.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:18 Bigshot_: Perform a macroexpand on a COND form. As for why is IF a special operator, read about special operators in the hyperspec. What makes them 'special'? Why do you need that 'special' behavior? 21:12:51 -!- chris2_ is now known as chris2 21:13:39 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 21:14:49 -!- anekos [n=anekos@pl410.nas925.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:15:31 -!- segv [n=mb@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 21:16:26 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 21:16:49 anekos [n=anekos@pl410.nas925.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:22:34 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:45 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:02 -!- Elench is now known as Troll 21:23:19 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:29:26 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-194.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:35 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 21:30:33 hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:43 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit ["BB"] 21:31:50 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:52 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-87-20.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:38:00 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:38:16 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-87-20.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:43:37 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177125219.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 21:48:37 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 21:48:40 eh, I almost got it working, but there is still an issue with call-next-method 21:49:20 i don't know how the local functions that are generated for each generic method supposed to handle call-next-method 21:49:30 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:49:53 i don't get the idea of this from the gf-sealing code, anyone? 21:50:12 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:50:45 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 21:52:05 otherwise i'm able to do (funcall (compile nil (make-generic-function-lambda-form #'allocate-instance)) (find-class 'standard-object)) 21:52:53 make-instance works too, still have some issues with initialize-instance and shared-initialize due to lots of methods defined on them 21:52:54 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:53:00 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 21:53:26 but call-next-method is still in the shadows... ah, already getting too late 21:53:54 -!- anton` [n=user@77.70.2.99] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:54:37 -!- TDT [i=dthole@dhcp80ff869b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:54:47 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:55:38 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 21:57:17 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-2-194.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 21:58:00 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B4EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:16 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-36-239.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:04:18 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 22:07:22 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:35 *rpg* is off to the TC lispers meeting. 22:10:53 rpg: :( 22:10:59 rpg: I can't go this week :( 22:11:16 sykopomp: Oh, well, there's always August! 22:11:31 rpg: did you get my e-mail about sheeple, btw? 22:12:09 sykopomp: Yes, I did, and it sounds very interesting. But you seemed to say that you wouldn't be around to talk about it till September or later, right? 22:12:17 correct, yes. 22:12:49 So I wasn't sure what to do, since our calendar is definitely not planned out past July... 22:13:43 burmas [n=thomas@12-186-112-217.dyn.adsl.belcenter.be] has joined #lisp 22:13:45 I haven't read all the ML stuff in detail. Have you guys finally settled on a place for august? 22:14:13 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:14:47 anyways, don't want to make you late. Have fun at the meeting o/ 22:14:56 sykopomp: No. Someone else took charge of that. First order of business at tonight's meeting is to choose a time and place for next meeting. 22:15:42 *sykopomp* sort of hopes a slightly later time is chosen. 22:16:50 -!- Alvar [n=alvar@h49n2fls303o885.telia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:17:36 ok, i'm confused. i'm getting an error stating that 'VAR cannot be coerced to a string, and the line of code shows (STRING (QUOTE VAR)), which when i run it manually, works fine. 22:17:38 sykopomp: Later in the day or in the month? 22:18:11 'var is a list 22:18:18 sykopomp: anyway, must dash now since I have the projector to set up! Catch me later, ok? 22:18:43 stassats: i'm afraid i don't get it. ;] 22:19:28 try s/(string (quote var))/(string var)/ 22:19:34 http://paste.lisp.org/display/83606 22:19:39 cheers o7 22:19:53 well, its using a parameter to a function, thats called as (func 'var) 22:19:56 you are quoting too much 22:20:07 ok, lemme chekc 22:20:14 -!- rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 22:20:30 minion: memo for rpg: Later in the day. Starting at 7 or so, but that's mainly because I'm a night owl :) 22:20:31 Remembered. I'll tell rpg when he/she/it next speaks. 22:24:25 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:25:00 oh god, i hate emacs regexps 22:26:46 yeah, I wish emacs used perl regexp syntax. 22:27:24 i'd better learn APL instead of emacs regexps 22:27:50 -!- burmas [n=thomas@12-186-112-217.dyn.adsl.belcenter.be] has left #lisp 22:29:28 http://paste.lisp.org/display/83606#1 22:29:42 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 22:29:54 it works when called as a function directly, but when the macro calls the function, it bombs. 22:29:57 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:30:37 should :col-type be evaluated? 22:30:52 if i take out the (string name) in concatenate, it gets further but fails later. 22:31:02 not sure, its a keyword, i could unquot eit 22:31:47 whats bad is i paste the output from the function, and it runs! 22:31:48 :P 22:31:58 i took the quotes off the keyword, same error 22:32:02 and why are you quoting keywords? they are self-evaluating 22:32:03 keywords rather 22:32:03 -!- jmbr_ is now known as jmbr 22:32:11 yeah, i just thought of that, silly eh? 22:32:52 previously i meant ''string quoted twice 22:33:06 no, thats right. 22:33:14 that string is passed later to the object init and must be quoted at that time 22:33:28 the print shows it right 22:33:38 its a datatype for that sql column 22:34:50 Demosthenex: when you call the macro, you should probably not quote the arguments. 22:35:18 Demosthenex: remember that 'x === (quote x) is a list of two elements, the symbol QUOTE and the symbol X. 22:36:36 yeah, here is where it's quoted too much 22:37:24 Demosthenex: you see, the difference between a macro and a function, is that the arguments passed to the macro ARE NOT evaluated, while the arguments passed to the function ARE evaluated before calling the function. 22:37:49 pjb: aw crud, thats it 22:38:20 Demosthenex: that's why when you call the function, you need to quote the arguments that are not self evaluating or that are not expressions. But for a macro, you don't need to quote them (unless you take them as expressions to be evaluated at run-time, and you don't want them explicitely quoted). 22:38:39 stassats: what was the issue you raised about loop and of-type? 22:39:20 i can't recall anything 22:39:42 you provided a patch for sbcl 22:39:53 a months ago 22:39:59 -!- guest5432 [n=vasile@john-marshall.sflc.info] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:40:39 i only remember issues with types defaulted to fixnum 22:40:46 Demosthenex: cl-ppcre:create-scanner returns only one value. So you can replace (nth-value 1 (cl-pprcre:create-scanner regexp)) by NIL. 22:41:18 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be."] 22:41:31 stassats: (loop for x of-type t from 0 to 10 collect x) doesn't work but I'm too sleepy already 22:41:57 pjb: it returns a scanner obj & a list of named capture fields 22:42:39 Demosthenex: this is not what is documented in the version I have and neither what it does. But if it's what you have in your version, ok. 22:42:40 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:42:54 pjb:http://paste.lisp.org/display/83606#2 22:42:58 see the bottom 22:43:44 Demosthenex: In my version, I get an error: Character 'd' may not follow '(?<' ; with your regexp. 22:43:51 ah 22:44:05 But it's all right. Just be careful which version you need. 22:44:10 you have to (let ((cl-ppcre:*allow-named-registers* t)) 22:44:22 named regs are reqiured for capture 22:44:46 ok. but I don't even have this symbol. I should probably upgrade cl-ppcre... 22:45:30 pjb: i'm on the latest. 22:45:41 named captures are *great* 22:45:50 at least for data extraction via regexp 22:46:08 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:46:08 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:30 Demosthenex: So, does it work when you don't quote the arguments to the macro? 22:49:43 yep! =] 22:50:31 with all this sidetracking i forgot what i was doing in the first place... 22:51:08 Demosthenex: you shouldn't string-upcase the arguments given by the user. If he wants to have his symbols in lower case, so be it. 22:54:16 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@12.48.195.73] has joined #lisp 22:56:46 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:11 -!- kidd [n=kidd@119.Red-79-152-42.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 22:57:51 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:59:10 kidd [n=kidd@119.Red-79-152-42.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:33 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.79.160] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:01:59 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.199] has joined #lisp 23:02:26 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:31 ausente2 [n=user7994@187.10.22.185] has joined #lisp 23:06:54 -!- ausente2 [n=user7994@187.10.22.185] has quit [Client Quit] 23:07:14 rpg [n=rpg@c-75-72-22-252.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:12 -!- Hun [n=hun@82.149.80.128] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:08:52 pjb: the intern'd symbols are like :|symbol| 23:09:03 i figured everything is xlated to UC anyway, so why not? 23:10:09 Demosthenex: Perhaps for ? ? Then use ? instead of ?. 23:10:28 Demosthenex: but this should tell you that you are missing something here. What if I have a field named DISK? 23:11:01 you don't. ;] 23:11:14 this is a shortcut for me to create tables for data i'm collecting from regexp 23:11:16 Ok, since the regexp is an argument, agreed. 23:11:27 Demosthenex: but then let the user write ?. 23:12:02 -!- rpg [n=rpg@c-75-72-22-252.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:12:02 i like! it preserves case in output in the regexp... 23:12:26 but, i haven't tested the funny :|symbol| syntax with postmodern... so i upcased it for compatibility 23:13:07 AFAIK, SQL table and column names may be case sensitive. 23:13:09 but i like the way the caps stands out 23:13:15 in the regexp 23:13:25 unfortunately, unlike perl regexp, you can't split these across lines. 23:13:32 without something like concatenate 23:14:03 Demosthenex: you could use your own string reader macro that would allow you to split strings over several lines. 23:14:24 yeah, i was thinking about that 23:14:30 i have some that should be paragraphs ;] 23:15:00 Or just (defun cat (&rest args) (apply (function concatenate) 'string args)) and #.(cat "abc" "def") 23:16:17 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:16:42 rullie [n=rullie@129-97-184-118.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 23:18:47 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:18:54 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@63.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:20:04 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@abaddon.networkdump.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:20:07 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@abaddon.networkdump.com] has joined #lisp 23:20:10 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@abaddon.networkdump.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:20:35 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:23:31 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 23:25:08 pkhuong_ [n=pkhuong@abaddon.networkdump.com] has joined #lisp 23:27:15 -!- seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:27:44 -!- willb [n=wibenton@compsci-wifi-39.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:28:58 -!- pkhuong_ [n=pkhuong@abaddon.networkdump.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:29:48 pjb: is it "good" lisp style to abbreviate functions (ie: concatenate -> cat)? 23:30:18 Demosthenex: not necessarily. But it is sometimes handy to do so, locally. 23:31:25 If there was only one or two occurences in a file, I'd do that. But if you have a lot of long line, then it would be better to deal with the reader macro. 23:31:37 -!- jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has quit [] 23:32:38 ah 23:33:16 so, the manual for log5 suggests that you inline log5 after requiring it, i take it that makes all the log5 symbols local? then i get a conflict when loading postmodern... 23:33:55 I don't know what log5 is and what inlining it means. 23:34:51 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 23:35:59 log5 is a lisp library for logging like log4j and log4perl 23:36:26 And what inlining a library means? 23:36:43 iam [n=iam@adsl-75-3-90-107.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:48 segv [n=mb@72-255-120-217.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:20 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:39:04 er, i guess i have the wrong word... 23:39:32 Notice also the difference between a library, a system, and a package. 23:40:31 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 23:41:04 gonzojive [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 23:41:12 there was something i had, which i can't find, that made it so i didn't have to prefix every log5 call with log5: 23:41:18 that broke postmodern 23:41:33 -!- segv [n=mb@72-255-120-217.client.stsn.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:41:41 Here, "LOG5" would be the name of a package. 23:42:08 And you could _use_ that package either using a :USE form in DEFPACKAGE, or explicitely calling (use-package "LOG5"). 23:42:26 You could also IMPORT symbols individually. 23:42:47 Probably you had a name collision. You should better stay with fully qualified symbol names. 23:43:04 -!- asksol [n=ask@97.218.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:43:04 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:13 Otherwise you have to identify the symbols that have names in common, and choose to _shadow_ one or the other. 23:43:32 nah, i can do full naming, makes more sense 23:44:34 know a fast way to convert an alist to a plist? 23:44:52 rlb3 [n=rlb@166.205.4.11] has joined #lisp 23:44:53 (loop for (k . v) in alist collect k collect v) 23:45:25 You lost it! 23:45:51 How can you get any pleasure from programming if you ask this kind of questions? 23:46:20 hey, its a puzzle for me too, i was making a larger loop to push and then reverse... 23:46:26 multiple collects hadn't occured 23:46:34 i make sure to only ask questions i can learn something from 23:46:51 (mapcan (lambda (a) (list (car a) (cdr a))) alist) 23:48:17 my notes on mapcar/n said it operated on the CAR of each cell, i hadn't considered that 23:48:55 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.199] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:49:06 Demosthenex: what is an a-list? 23:51:22 -!- Jules_ [n=Jules@cp1359485-a.landg1.lb.home.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:53:37 a list where each cons cell's CAR points to a cons cell with a key in CAR and value in CDR. (("hi" . "i")("am" . "an")("alist" . "haha")) 23:54:03 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B4EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:54:19 Demosthenex: so, can you process it with the map* functions? 23:54:59 well, you can build it with push & cons, or acons. you can iterate over the list with standard functions. 23:55:09 any reason for the name alist? 23:55:26 "attribute" ? 23:55:28 :> association list 23:55:36 i see it as a small hash 23:55:37 perhaps... 23:55:48 lemoinem: ah, clearly :P thanks 23:55:51 i think association is right, hashes are often called associative arrays 23:56:00 Your notes on mapcar/n said it operated on the _*CAR*_ of each cell, and you know that an a-list is a list where each cons cell's _*CAR*_ points to a cons cell. So can you process an a-list with mapcar/n, etc? 23:56:51 nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:54 Demosthenex: it's true that an a-list can be used as a dictionnary, just like a hash-table. But it is at another level just a list, so it can be processed by the list processing function. 23:56:58 for pjb's information, it might be interesting to draw the conses of the list on paper... the PCL book made it clear that way 23:57:27 thanks 23:57:28 Demosthenex: this is what makes lisp so versatile: the intentional types are not necessarily explicit. 23:57:28 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:57:49 Demosthenex: strong dynamic typing :) 23:57:52 madnificent: do you mean for claar, or for Demosthenex? 23:57:57 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:38 pjb: I meant it in the sense that Demosthenex might understand your comment better if he drew the cons cells on paper 23:58:45 claar [n=claar@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 23:58:55 Hello 23:58:56 claar: draw ((one . 1) (two . 2) (three . 3)) 23:58:57 http://claar.informatimago.com:8006/0 23:59:02 Would a web page be ok? 23:59:06 Demosthenex: have a look at that url. 23:59:14 i see, thats cool 23:59:18 yeah, i get how it works. 23:59:22 pjb: if that isn't clearr, then I'm probably dreaming about something inexistant,whilst I try to chat thorugh this laggy connection 23:59:58 the only reason why i didn't jump to mapcar in the first place was i said "the car? that'll chop it in half" and i neglected to remember thats just a pointer to the cons cell i wanted