15:38:42 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 15:38:42 15:38:42 -!- names: ccl-logbot proq vyazovoi- Adamant rpg sellout hypno edeion abeaumont_ sepult rouslan Blue_hat yvdriess existentialmonk fgtech mikezor tmh Muld fisxoj Modius Athas pok scode Kirklander milanj galdor jmbr Georges` danlei dreish Gertm TuxPurple TimoT jao fiveop ausente dcrawford segv bombshelter13_ ThomasIl TDT mvilleneuve wlr ia schoppenhauer oudeis jewel_ blackened` dys Jasko3 Edico vy masm splittist hkBst weirdo Sikander mega1 sykopomp daniel 15:38:42 -!- names: silenius roygbiv spilman Jabberwockey ianmcorvidae|alt Krystof borism nunb Khisanth nvoorhies maxote athos asksol Yuuhi stassats kiuma antoszka aerique tcr KingNato Soulman huangjs alinp schme hefner serichsen Davse_Bamse claar smithzv alexsuraci BrianRice beach legumbre_ Ginei_Morioka drafael eno chylli kleppari sethen Demosthenex larry Fuufie kidd antifuchs a-s holycow deepfire xinming_ lukego benny delYsid joshe younder sohail Pepe_ lujz 15:38:42 -!- names: pbusser3 kpreid rdd cp2 Posterdati bobf__ cmm- mathrick KingNatoG5 bdowning Drakeson` billstclair dto piso madnificent mogunus ajhager TR2N S11001001 phadthai tsuru djinni` fnordus Xof cods trebor_dki tltstc Ringo48 rapacity l_a_m z0d tic_ djkthx Elench dfox rtoym_ authentic konr bohanlon koollman Orest^bnc mornfall kami- joast zophy blast_hardcheese tessier mkfort sbahra peddie_ Patzy ramus` foom synic s0ber yahooooo meingbg_ moesenle stepnem 15:38:42 -!- names: jkantz Maddas lnostdal jyujin anekos ennen roderic noptys_ acieroid pragma_ enn pjb nerdshark mgr dmiles_afk ski wgl sytse matimago Quadrescence Bootvis pkhuong seejay tarbo azuk` sepisultrum _3b` Draggor guaqua p8m Zhivago Adrinael ace4016 alexbobp Aisling Axioplase_ retupmoca tcoppi vcgomes zbigniew egn felipe ineiros Ralith PissedNumlock spacebat_ Bucciarati rsynnott sad0ur herbieB dostoyevsky specbot michaelw rbancroft drewc ecraven kei 15:38:42 -!- names: arbscht_ nicktastic Xach erg keithr rey_ Buganini kefka froydnj CuriousTrain dalkvist srcerer yango ryepup rotty replaca__ mbishop JuanDaugherty araujo pitui Riastradh AntiSpamMeta rread kuwabara1 sjbach clog jsnell housel [df]_ ``Erik nowhereman spiaggia p_l Guest497` Soulmann kuhzoo lemoinem jlf` Swordsman Tordek azanar prip_ lisppaste hyperboreean jrockway slyrus Taggnostr boyscared xristos JeLuF meingbg bob_f mtd easyE erk leo2007 johs 15:38:42 -!- names: vsync joga cYmen minion sciendan r0bby luis ilitirit Fade cavelife^ gz tvaalen DrForr _3b Borbus bfein rlonstein chii krappie guenthr 15:38:57 Blue_hat: not exactly. CPython doesn't compile to native code, only bytecode... however, SBCL and CMUCL use a compiler that is (or was) actually called Python 15:38:58 Blue_hat: Python compiles to bytecode, which is then interpreted. Most CL compilers compile to machine code which is executed directly by the CPU. 15:39:17 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:41 elias` [n=c@host86-145-40-174.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:39:48 but it's interactive like python 15:39:54 ok 15:39:59 cool 15:40:07 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has quit [] 15:40:19 *tmh* couldn't answer because the only python he uses is the SBCL compiler. 15:40:36 ok 15:41:04 I find python's interactivity annoyingly poor. 15:41:16 indeed. 15:41:18 Zhivago: ipython gives a much better REPL 15:41:30 though far from SLIME 15:41:49 One of the most annoying things is that reloading a module doesn't upgrade instances. 15:43:56 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:45:22 well, that's simply due to Python's object system 15:46:29 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 15:47:13 wubbster [n=wubb@doc-24-206-235-153.kw.tx.cebridge.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:10 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-6-126.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 15:48:16 It's an important part of interactivity, imho. 15:48:49 tcr: are you happy with your cl-walker changes? especially the which-macro-to-expand one? if so, are they available somewhere? 15:49:10 Zhivago: there's 3rd party tools which do that. it's just a matter of walking all instances and changing their class object pointer. :) 15:49:25 foom: That's not sufficient. 15:49:27 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-131-6.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:50:07 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-255.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:50:12 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 15:50:14 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:50:20 well sure, you also need to change constants and other references, but you can mostly do that. :) 15:50:31 Still not sufficient. :) 15:50:34 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 15:50:45 What about the instance attributes? 15:51:04 but it's more interactive than C 15:51:06 covered under "other references" 15:51:20 just trace the heap looking for refs, mutate all of em, done! 15:52:00 Uh, so how does that add the expected attributes to an instance? 15:52:06 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:52:09 -!- vyazovoi- is now known as Vyazovoi 15:52:19 There's no infrastructure in place to support upgrading instances. 15:52:27 attila_lendvai: I didn't pursue it further because what I was thinking of is actually impossible. You cannot relate from the expansion of a macro to the macro invocation, except for forms EQ in the expansion to the invocation 15:52:31 The little things add up. 15:53:10 Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation, apparently isn't so bad so far - even thoug hI've just got to the Intr 15:54:54 Zhivago: oh, sure, if you want to change it so much that the attributes need upgrading, you'd need to handle that yourself 15:54:55 tcr: ok, i'll record my function-definition-form change then. even though it's a bit kludgy, but it does what i want for now... 15:55:13 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:55:34 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 15:57:47 -!- abeaumont_ is now known as abeaumont 15:57:54 "compiles to bytecode"... 15:58:06 from a performance standpoint, is it any different than executing the AST directly? 15:58:14 Yes. 15:58:22 oudeis [n=oudeis@95.35.236.196] has joined #lisp 15:58:34 Actually, byte-code can be faster than native code in some situations. 15:58:53 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:59:05 Think about cache locality. 15:59:19 locality of reference? 15:59:20 i see 15:59:31 and bytecode can have more specialized opcode set 15:59:35 weirdo: depends on how good your bytecode is 15:59:47 Yeah, think of it as a kind of compression scheme. 16:00:01 if you defined it well enough, you could easily claim that your "interpreter" becomes actually microcode 16:00:04 but it's no good when mangling floats 16:00:13 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-140-71.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:00:22 there's advantages bytecode has over ast interpretation besides being compact 16:00:33 portability is one 16:00:55 oh, over ast 16:01:06 weirdo: not necessarily portability, *fast* bytecode might quite possibly incorporate parts of underlying machine spec. 16:01:17 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-50-42.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:01:25 Hurrah for microcode. 16:01:39 AS/400 uses interesting bytecode scheme 16:01:43 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:01:44 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 16:02:35 128bit addressing, executables are recompiled into native code with both bytecode and native code stored and kept in sync 16:03:39 blist 16:03:45 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-17-219.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:03:48 *aerique* sighs 16:03:49 TimoT: are you receiving my /msgs? (sorry for the spam, everyone else) 16:03:56 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:04:16 there are AST compression techniques that are not bytecodes 16:04:37 jsnell: Nope. 16:06:17 -!- Posterdati [n=tapioca@host25-214-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:06:30 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:34 or at least not the kind of bytecodes you interpret sequentially 16:08:08 wish me luck guys 16:12:29 I submit that the interactive power of lisp can actually hinder application development. I have lisp code that generates a finite element mesh from a parametric definition of the structure. There is an error in it, so I need to plot a subset of the mesh. There is motivation here for me to write a mesh plotter. Instead, I've cobbled together a couple routines to write the mesh for plotting in gnuplot. I'm driving lisp and gnuplot from emacs. It's 16:13:17 So, I may never actually write a dedicated mesh plotter, because what I have is *just good enough*. 16:13:25 sortof 16:13:35 bad for development, good for achieving one's goals (: 16:13:36 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:13:58 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:14:07 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-128-245.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:14:09 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 16:14:09 Exactly. 16:14:18 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-128-245.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:14:19 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-128-130.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:14:19 -!- jlf` is now known as jlf 16:14:23 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:14:35 -!- rapacity [n=prwg@li30-188.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:14:39 rapacity [n=prwg@li30-188.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:14:41 tmh: yeah, blame your laziness on Lisp. :-) 16:14:50 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 16:15:31 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 16:15:41 luis: Hah! Isn't that the mark of a good programmer, ambitiously lazy? So lisp attracts good programmers because it facilitates being lazy. :-) 16:16:01 luis: didn't find the gc stuff you asked about, sorry 16:16:19 jsnell: ah, that's too bad. Thanks anyway! 16:16:21 meta7 [n=somadhi@217.118.64.49] has joined #lisp 16:16:50 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 16:16:54 *tmh* needs to at least resurrect some of the CL interfaces to gnuplot. 16:17:04 jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 16:17:06 some or one or combine the best of all. 16:17:14 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit [Client Quit] 16:17:23 tmh: I looked at at least one that was really, really bad. 16:17:55 -!- pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:17:57 Anyone out there an asdf hacker at all? I'm wrestling with the asdf git, and would really appreciate a side word... 16:17:57 rpg: Well, at least you looked and can avoid those mistakes. 16:18:05 tmh: is the lisp difference that with great ease of kludging, comes an appreciation of it as a kludge. If you'd done what you've done in Perl, you'd be so impressed with yourself it would end up on CPAN. 'Look at all the libraries we've got...' 16:18:17 tmh: It's not clear to me how avoidable they are --- the problem is the underlying horror of gnuplot. 16:18:38 jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 16:18:46 -!- meta7 [n=somadhi@217.118.64.49] has quit [Client Quit] 16:19:24 gnuplot is great, don't get me wrong, but it's really got its own shell, so it's hard to do much better than provide something like expect for it. 16:19:35 rpg: agreed, all of the cl plotting libraries I'm aware of, though, are 2D. Maybe it's worth looking at adding 3D plots to those, though. 16:20:03 Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:20:16 And it's virtually impossible to do great stuff with CL's powerful APIs to, for example, provide useful default configurations and manage all the configs by turning them into something like keyword args. 16:20:32 rpg: last time i had to work with gnuplot, i wound up writing out scripts and running whatever the equivalent of gnuplot --load is 16:20:55 Posterdati [n=tapioca@host177-219-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:21:01 *rpg* is lost in a twisty maze of git branches for ASDF ... 16:21:02 Xach: That's pretty much the only way I work with gnuplot. 16:21:20 Xach: Yeah, so it's not clear how wrapping it in CL would ever repay the effort. 16:21:52 Hmm, seems that there is a consensus that it would be better to have a native CL plotter than to wrap gnuplot. 16:22:11 rpg: oh, i wrote the scripts from CL, of course. well worth it for me. 16:22:30 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit [Client Quit] 16:22:49 I found that perl was, to be honest, much easier. It's much more suited to manipulating the kinds of files that gnuplot wants. 16:23:02 rpg: then write CL-perl! :P 16:23:18 rpg: really? columns of data? 16:25:52 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 16:26:48 jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 16:27:02 Xach: I always just ended up doing tab-separated stuff.... 16:28:05 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit [Client Quit] 16:28:29 jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 16:28:49 Xach, what scripts 16:28:50 ? 16:28:56 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit [Client Quit] 16:29:12 Fare: scripts to drive gnuplot. 16:29:24 Text files with gnuplot commands. 16:30:32 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:30:38 so i could have functions that would accumulate gnuplot state, and multiple data sources, and and the end write out all the data files and a script to control the settings and load the data and display it. 16:31:07 jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 16:32:03 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit [Client Quit] 16:33:31 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:33:43 I think wrapping gnuplot in CL would be straight-forward, just tedious. Probably inefficient if you are doing it interactively since you'd have to communicate through a stream and in my experience, the most reliable way to plot in gnuplot is to issue 'reset' commands and set everything before the plot. 16:34:34 Although, if I did a better job at bookkeeping on the CL side, I probably could avoid the 'reset' command and only update the state that has changed. 16:34:53 get it right, then profile :-) 16:34:55 *Xach* is clearly not a gnuplot power user 16:35:18 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:36:14 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:36:24 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-b5aa3084b17b6f60] has quit [] 16:36:44 jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 16:36:47 i've been wondering about a CL interface to graphvis. 16:36:49 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-c00a6df85c84958b] has joined #lisp 16:38:25 s/vis/viz 16:38:40 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 16:38:41 Or Vtk 16:38:44 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:38:46 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit [Client Quit] 16:38:58 jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 16:39:14 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:39:15 I'm sure there's only 5 existing cl graphviz interfaces, plenty of room for one more 16:39:44 I haven't investigated, and I definitely didn't want to get into 'one more' :) 16:39:47 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit [Client Quit] 16:40:49 and there you go. cl-graphviz 16:41:11 curse the obscure naming habits of lisp hackers! 16:41:19 curse and recurse them! 16:41:31 curse my british dictionary. :) 16:44:02 I'm too bloody stupid to checkout from ccl's svn repo 16:44:28 replacing darwinx86 with linunxx86 as advised in the documentation results in a 404 16:44:50 try linuxx86 instead 16:45:23 Fare: There's cl-dot, too... 16:45:33 Xach: care to elaborate, or did I miss something from earlier conversation? 16:45:49 Hmm, vtk is a C++ library. That doesn't bode well for interfacing with it. 16:46:03 -!- Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:46:10 REPLeffect: cl-graphviz is a CL library to work with graphviz 16:46:11 cl-graphviz seems to use verrazano 16:46:23 REPLeffect: clear as mud 16:46:47 to build up the c++ bindings. 16:47:05 Xach: ah -- you're saying that the naming conventions of cl-graphviz leave something to be desired,then? :D 16:47:09 I've had fun with s-dot 16:47:29 REPLeffect: no, he was mocking me for commenting before I looked at common-lisp.net. :) 16:47:30 http://www.martin-loetzsch.de/S-DOT/ 16:48:45 I actually use s-dot and then dot2tex to use the graphviz placement algorithm with the tikz drawing library for TeX, such that the fonts match the rest of my document. 16:49:09 Fade: ah, I'm a little slow, but I usually come around (eventually) 16:50:22 -!- rey_ [n=ikke@134.184.49.19] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:50:26 There are CL bindings for plplot, maybe that will do what I want. 16:50:32 -!- PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:54:35 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:55:11 -!- chylli [n=lchangyi@60.211.218.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:55:34 vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 16:56:16 wchogg [n=wchogg@host-245-3.pubnet.pdx.edu] has joined #lisp 17:01:09 ACL seems to use :name "" for directory pathnames, befuddling ASDF (which expects NIL or :unspecific). Is that acceptable, or is it somehow incorrect? 17:01:34 armed bear? 17:01:36 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:02:15 allegro cl? 17:02:16 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:02:18 Fade: Allegro. 17:02:26 ah. dunno 17:02:43 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 17:04:43 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:05:05 -!- Blue_hat [n=Blue_hat@port0001-aam-cvx-cent.cwjamaica.com] has left #lisp 17:05:28 Hun [n=hun@82.149.80.128] has joined #lisp 17:05:49 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 17:05:56 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:06:40 This isn't really a question about Allegro, but a question about what's an acceptable pathname-name for a directory... 17:07:01 Well, in posix, directories are files ... 17:07:43 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 17:07:54 Zhivago: files named ""? 17:08:34 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:08:45 actually, a :name component of "." with :type nil/:unspecific would make sense in posix 17:08:55 ...for a directory pathname 17:10:09 antifuchs: Ouch. This suggests that the ASDF/CL-FAD approach of trying to guess whether something's a directory by groveling over all possibly-consistent "empty" values for pathname-name is a losing battle. 17:10:38 trying to shoehorn pathnames onto posix is always a losing battle (: 17:10:40 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:11:09 antifuchs: or :name nil and :type "" :-) 17:11:13 oooh 17:11:20 perfect 17:11:30 whereas :type "." would be /another/ directory pathname 17:11:56 antifuchs: this isn't really a problem of trying to shoehorn pathnames onto posix; the problem is that there's no portable way (is there?) for me to have ASDF ask the OS if some pathname maps to a directory... 17:12:36 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:13:14 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:44 there is no portable way to do anything with pathnames 17:15:47 -!- masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:16:46 some implementations have PROBE-DIRECTORY 17:16:54 HG` [n=wells@xdsley053.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:20:13 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 17:20:16 -!- TimoT [n=ttossava@cs163143.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:20:25 Xof: I am reminded of a colleagues comment in one piece of code: "this is composed primarily of hate." 17:20:38 s/colleagues/colleague's/ 17:21:30 piso: ACL does. Does SBCL? 17:21:47 I don't think so 17:21:54 clisp, abcl and xcl have it 17:22:29 clisp requires the directory name to end with a / 17:22:44 (probe-directory "/home/") 17:23:17 piso: what about logical pathnames? 17:23:23 what about them? 17:23:36 oh, does p-d work with them? 17:23:37 (probe-directory "machine:home;") has no / 17:23:50 dunno 17:24:20 [2]> (probe-directory "/home") 17:24:20 *** - not a directory: #P"/home" 17:24:35 that's clisp's way of being helpful 17:25:47 This was all triggered by trying to make ASDF more helpful. I'm inclined to think we need to throw in the towel and revert... antifuchs' examples are pretty persuasive. 17:26:07 jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 17:26:08 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:26:10 Thanks, all. I am going to go off and grab some calories and hope that this will help. 17:27:14 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit [Client Quit] 17:29:32 luis pasted "figuring out an instance's type" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83525 17:29:40 Hmm, how can I find out what's this instance's type? 17:30:27 The first slot is a reference to the class, iirc. 17:31:50 LDB says it's a fixnum 17:32:01 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-c0a876f53954a057] has joined #lisp 17:32:03 no, sorry, my bad. 17:32:36 jxonas [n=jxonas@201.82.4.152] has joined #lisp 17:32:43 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:53 That first slot looks like it's been labeled type: here 17:33:04 You should then be able to look up the class's name slot :) 17:36:12 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:36:21 oh, you meat slot 0 then? 17:36:23 *meant 17:36:55 hi, is there a way to not have to (sb-ext:unlock-package 'sb-alien) before I can (setf (symbol-function 'foo) (lambda () 0)) ? 17:37:19 -!- hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit ["leaving"] 17:37:35 luis annotated #83525 "following the type slot" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83525#1 17:37:35 Well, I meant the first slot in the allocation. For instances that is used to hold the class. 17:37:37 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #lisp 17:38:15 So, now you need to find out which slot in classes holds the name. 17:38:44 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:39:56 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 17:40:26 *luis* digs into pcl/*.lisp 17:40:41 egn: do not intern symbols into sb-alien package 17:40:52 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@host93-172-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:40:55 egn: you would not normally have to unlock something to do that. 17:43:10 Xach: stassats: ah sorry, jk. I might have been trying to overwrite a built in by accident and it was getting mad at me 17:46:17 luis: http://sbcl.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/sbcl/sbcl/src/code/class.lisp?revision=1.87&view=markup 17:47:15 bbl 17:47:32 Zhivago: thanks! 17:48:45 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 17:51:11 Blue_hat [n=Blue_hat@port0001-aam-cvx-cent.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 17:51:35 -!- Blue_hat [n=Blue_hat@port0001-aam-cvx-cent.cwjamaica.com] has left #lisp 17:51:40 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-53-236.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:03 elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 17:54:38 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 17:55:45 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:58:23 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 18:00:13 So I saw in shuffletron that the almighty hefner makes an interface with format and escape codes. Is this the standard way, or do people here also tend to use ncurses/slang? 18:00:28 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@95.35.236.196] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:00:43 Sikander: i don't think people tend to make terminal interfaces at all. 18:01:01 Sikander: with only one data point, you can extrapolate in any direction... 18:01:04 Xach: so, it's just typing in functions at the repl? 18:01:09 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-89-252.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:01:16 Xach: That's why I asked for other data points :) 18:01:26 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-255.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 18:01:55 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 18:02:01 Sikander: so when you say "the standard way", do you mean for any programming language, or for CL specifically? 18:02:18 I type functions into Emacs, usually, but that's not a CL program. 18:02:35 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@174.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:02:49 Xach: no, CL specifically. 18:03:16 Sikander: I've heard of some roguelikes in CL, but I don't know what they use. i think one of them uses whatever is built in to clisp. 18:03:29 Sikander: CL terminal interfaces are not all that common, as far as i can tell. 18:03:30 wubbster_ [n=wubb@doc-24-206-235-153.kw.tx.cebridge.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:34 It's still a bit.. odd to me. I'm used to writing programs and once they work, running them 18:04:01 Sikander: ncursesw is rather a good choice if you want to make a terminal interface 18:04:06 so basically, for a project/"program" you write a package and when you want to run it, you load it in the repl and run the functions? 18:04:26 Sikander: you can also dump image that will start with your main function 18:04:46 What about config files? are these just snippets of lisp code with defparameter in there? 18:04:53 which you can then use as executable. there are also some tools to make it easier, like cl-launch 18:05:18 Sikander: well, you can certainly just (load ...) them using CL as your configuration :) 18:06:04 You know, the lisp "culture" is _really_ different from anything I've ever seen! 18:06:20 minion: tell Sikander about trivial-configuration-parser 18:06:21 Sikander: please look at trivial-configuration-parser: trivial-configuration-parser is a trivial parser library for configuration files. http://www.cliki.net/trivial-configuration-parser 18:06:25 It's actually so different that it takes me so long to adjust to it 18:06:35 luis: thanks 18:06:38 minion: thanks 18:06:39 no problem 18:06:47 Sikander: oh, that. well, people will put up with a lot of crap they wouldn't ask a "normal" end-user to do. 18:06:51 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-36-239.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:07:01 Sikander: i have a lot of programs that are saved images + some short functions to type when i start up 18:07:10 heheh 18:07:14 but if i was polishing it more, i'd make it more convenient. 18:07:26 hefner doesn't put up with lame crap like that 18:07:44 So atm I'm looking at shuffletron as "the" way to do it. It seems nice and clean 18:07:56 actually, i have a handful that also look at *posix-argv* to do stuff. 18:08:00 Sikander: it seems also that this channel is the saner part of community. I rarely venture into c.l.l and always return with disgust 18:09:12 p_l: I (read only) hang around cll as well sometimes. 18:09:32 p_l: What I've learned most from there is how the filtering in my newsreader works 18:09:45 hahahahaha 18:10:11 koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.107.70] has joined #lisp 18:10:56 I don't have normal NNTP access, so I haven't tried filtering for gems (for some reason, ISPs no longer have news servers - what a sad end...) 18:11:35 LostMonarch [n=roby@host69-181-dynamic.57-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:11:35 p_l: where are you located? I'm in the netherlands, and there's still news servers here 18:11:36 p_l: http://dotsrc.org/usenet/ is a good way to read c.l.l 18:12:13 Sikander: currently in Coventry for the summer, then back to Aberdeen. Unfortunately, I suspect that asking my uni for hosting a news server would be too much 18:12:58 p_l: yeah, universities here don't have news servers either. But my ISP (outside of work) does. 18:13:08 -!- wubbster [n=wubb@doc-24-206-235-153.kw.tx.cebridge.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:13:34 p_l: and post too, I should add. 18:13:39 luis: do you think it will be possible to petition them to add alt.sysadmin.security? :) 18:13:39 -!- Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:13:47 tfu 18:13:53 alt.sysadmin.recovery 18:14:11 Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:14:13 pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 18:14:14 I wonder if I need another coffee 18:14:28 -!- pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:14:39 p_l: for that I'd recommend http://eternal-september.org 18:15:03 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-121.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 18:15:53 nice 18:16:13 hello 18:17:18 hi fe[nl]ix 18:17:31 hi p_l 18:17:54 -!- ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:17:59 wubbster [n=wubb@doc-24-206-235-153.kw.tx.cebridge.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:06 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@42.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:18:09 -!- wubbster [n=wubb@doc-24-206-235-153.kw.tx.cebridge.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:18:18 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Success] 18:18:44 pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 18:20:40 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:20:47 Pepe__ [n=ppjet@78.113.14.36] has joined #lisp 18:20:56 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.1"] 18:21:35 -!- claar [n=claar@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:21:41 Returning to earlier ASDF conundrum, there's a question (since it's not documented) about what directory-pathname-p is even supposed to do. 18:21:55 is there any low-level http library with utilities for parsing http requests? i could do it myself but the options are either a gigantic state machine or a gigantic regexp and neither really makes me happy. most of the packages on cliki.net/web are high-level or client-side stuff or full-blown webservers. i suppose i could install a lisp webserver and call its internals... anyone have a better idea? 18:22:19 Is it supposed to test to see whether a pathname is intended to represent a directory, or whether it represents an actual directory? If the former, then PROBE-DIRECTORY is not really an acceptable substitute... 18:22:19 koning_robot: make a computer program write the state machine for you? 18:22:27 claar [n=claar@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 18:22:36 Hello 18:23:39 koning_robot: i don't know of something offhand, but you could probably extract some useful things from hunchentoot 18:23:45 benny` [n=benny@i577A1A33.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:24:19 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A2AE2.versanet.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:24:22 -!- benny` is now known as benny 18:26:51 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:27:23 Xach: thanks, i think i will cherry pick from hunchentoot 18:28:18 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o drewc 18:28:42 -!- wubbster_ [n=wubb@doc-24-206-235-153.kw.tx.cebridge.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:29:49 Pepe___ [n=ppjet@159.144.94-79.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:39 CrEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 18:31:12 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-132.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 18:31:45 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@78.113.30.137] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:32:18 -!- Pepe___ is now known as Pepe 18:32:21 -!- Pepe is now known as Pepe_ 18:33:30 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:33:48 -!- Pepe__ [n=ppjet@78.113.14.36] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:34:05 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:36:32 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:39 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:37:14 xahlee is a dick head 18:37:23 Amen. 18:38:01 athos: have you seen "Xah Lee is a fuckwit"? 18:38:23 -!- bobf__ [n=bob@host86-162-64-255.range86-162.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:38:36 i keep running into people that actually listen to him. don't know how they might find that useful 18:38:41 there's no way he's not mentally disabled/damaged. just look what a fanatic jerk he is, how much effort he put into his "i hate erik naggum" campagne 18:38:46 OT: Is there some easy way to get a diff/patch email from Git that is intended for inclusion in an email, instead of being intended for piping at sendmail? 18:39:22 hm, rpg, I think so 18:39:35 if there is, it's def mentioned in git help diff 18:39:47 rpg: git format-patch, or some such 18:39:47 rpg: iirc, you can use git-format-patch and get files that you can attach to emails yourself 18:39:59 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 18:40:59 20:38:01 < Adlai> athos: have you seen "Xah Lee is a fuckwit"? 18:41:00 nope 18:41:46 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:56 athos: http://23x.net/3329/Xah_Lee_is_a_Fucktard 18:42:13 antifuchs: I just read that again, and there's nothing obvious in the manpage... 18:42:15 "Xah Lee is a fuckwit" seems to be down atm. 18:42:48 Blue_hat [n=Blue_hat@port0010-aam-cvx-cent.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 18:43:16 -!- Blue_hat [n=Blue_hat@port0010-aam-cvx-cent.cwjamaica.com] has left #lisp 18:43:30 I suspect if I were really a wizard, I could use git-email and with no more than several hours of work, figure out a standalone SMTP configuration... 18:43:39 rpg: the -o dir option is what I used, I think 18:44:02 Omg, shell variables are evaluated lazily? 18:44:14 s/evaluated/bound/ 18:44:36 antifuchs: AFAICT that just takes what git will ordinarily do and pushes it into a different directory... 18:44:49 ohwait, no, that doesn't look right 18:45:37 yeah, I seem to have forgotten how to do that 18:45:46 gnoo [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:55 luis annotated #83525 "success" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83525#2 18:46:02 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:05 -!- gnoo [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:46:49 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:26 *Adlai* falls on the floor from laughter. 18:47:35 If you want a very good sample of Xah Lee's writing... 18:47:49 no thanks. 18:47:50 piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:03 Go to the paragraph comparing nanobots to vaporization in his diatribe about overpopulation, here: http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/t1/20040607_mutce_prenu.html 18:50:10 *rpg* realizes that his jwz-style "crush all the tab characters" clashes with the asdf repo.... 18:51:04 rpg: bah, if you have commit access just crush them once and for all 18:51:40 -!- Georges` [n=Georges@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:53:45 jao [n=jao@52.Red-83-43-32.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:59 alama [n=alama@c-98-207-155-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:27 asksol [n=ask@247.243.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:55:34 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host69-181-dynamic.57-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 18:55:44 *rpg* more happily realizes that git diff has reasonable flags to set... 18:59:47 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 19:03:10 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:04:01 -!- Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["restarting emacs"] 19:04:02 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:55 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:05:18 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:08:12 Bigshot_ [n=BIG_SHOT@CPE002129abc864-CM001ac35cd4d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:09:35 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:09:46 how can we multiply ((1 2 (3 4 5) 6 (7 9 9)) x (2 3 (9 8 7) 8 (9 9 9))) using "mapcar"? 19:11:26 how is multiplication defined? 19:12:12 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@wirenat-eld.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:13:17 just like what the mapcar does if we have (x1 y1 z1) (a1 b1 c1) = (x1*a1+y1*b1+z1*c1) 19:14:16 Bigshot_: You can reduce the former to the latter. 19:14:18 -!- vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:14:29 mapcar '((1 2 (3 4 5) 6 (7 9 9)) '(2 3 (9 8 7) 8 (9 9 9)) 19:14:42 Bigshot_: write a function FLATTEN which flattens a list, i.e. (1 2 (3 4 5) 6) => (1 2 3 4 5 6) 19:14:42 s/(// 19:14:51 ahh just what i thought 19:15:01 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [] 19:15:08 then use whatever you have to compute the second case 19:15:46 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 19:16:04 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-186-81.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:17:15 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 19:18:04 wubbster [n=wubb@doc-24-206-235-153.kw.tx.cebridge.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:15 -!- wubbster [n=wubb@doc-24-206-235-153.kw.tx.cebridge.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:18:46 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:20:17 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:21:35 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 19:23:12 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has joined #lisp 19:27:54 -!- rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:28:02 clhs ~# 19:28:02 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm 19:28:13 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-128-245.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 19:31:43 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-190-97.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:31:55 Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:38 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:32:48 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 19:33:38 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:37:24 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-132.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 19:37:48 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:38:23 Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 19:39:18 -!- Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:39:43 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 19:40:16 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 19:40:40 Bigshot_ pasted "flatten" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83535 19:42:46 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:42:49 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:44:06 oh l1 gets nil 19:45:22 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 19:45:34 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has joined #lisp 19:46:24 Blue_ha1 [n=Blue_hat@port0005-aam-cvx-cent.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 19:46:45 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:47:33 salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has joined #lisp 19:48:36 'afternoon 19:48:46 -!- Blue_ha1 [n=Blue_hat@port0005-aam-cvx-cent.cwjamaica.com] has left #lisp 19:49:01 Blue_ha1 [n=Blue_hat@port0005-aam-cvx-cent.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 19:49:05 hi salex 19:49:17 -!- Blue_ha1 [n=Blue_hat@port0005-aam-cvx-cent.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:49:43 hey Xach. how goes? 19:50:04 i'd write flatten with mapcan 19:50:17 stassats: not much. wishing for a TDS protocol implementation in CL. 19:50:18 what's wrong with my flat? 19:50:21 sorry, salex. 19:50:57 Xach: ah. database/SQL stuff iirc, right? 19:51:19 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-173-58-94-2.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:29 yeah. sybase/MSSQL protocol. 19:51:47 -!- jxonas [n=jxonas@201.82.4.152] has left #lisp 19:51:56 Bigshot_: why your flatten takes two arguments? 19:52:09 rough owrk 19:52:57 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 19:52:59 Blue_ha1 [n=Blue_hat@port0005-aam-cvx-cent.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 19:53:01 one string to be cdred with another is original 19:53:13 ??? 19:53:20 err, why do you need an original? 19:53:43 i've seen that in your previous pastes, where did you learn that? 19:54:10 hehe i can correct that if that's a wrong practice 19:54:38 Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 19:54:48 yes, it is wrong 19:55:09 -!- Blue_ha1 [n=Blue_hat@port0005-aam-cvx-cent.cwjamaica.com] has left #lisp 19:55:14 -!- elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:55:44 ok i removed that extra argument now but it still eats away "G" 19:55:51 macdice [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:56:06 sounds like "not even wrong" territory, fwiw 19:56:12 well, annotate with your new code 19:56:19 ok 19:56:39 Bigshot_ annotated #83535 "hi" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83535#1 19:58:01 "have you read your SICP today?" 19:58:09 kmels [n=kmels@97.160.216.201.static.intelnet.net.gt] has joined #lisp 19:58:12 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:12 hein09 [n=hein@vc-41-21-59-36.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:58:20 -_- 19:58:25 if you can't use recursion properly, don't use it 19:58:38 (defun flatten (list) (mapcan (lambda (x) (if (consp x) (flatten x) (list x))) list)) 19:59:20 what do you mean 'can't' use everybody has to 'learn to use' it 20:00:08 well, then you should learn it before you use it 20:00:29 hehe hands on practice 20:00:29 and there is no point in using recursion for clearly iterative processes in Common Lisp 20:01:16 stassats: what's wrong in that recursive proggy where's the bug? 20:02:02 i think it returns l1 which is a subset of original 20:02:21 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 20:02:36 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:02:58 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 20:03:46 to flatten a list you should see if car is a list, and then flatten it, and then flatten the cdr 20:04:12 and append flattened car and flattened cdr 20:04:52 "what's wrong in that recursive proggy?" well, the line that reads "(cond " is ok. Otherwise .... 20:05:01 ;) 20:05:48 -!- hein09 [n=hein@vc-41-21-59-36.umts.vodacom.co.za] has left #lisp 20:06:28 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-121.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 20:07:29 Xach: re TDS, we use clsql with FreeTDS and odbc 20:07:54 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 20:08:32 ryepup: oh, ok. i shied away from that because i haven't always been happy with clsql, and adding the odbc layer sounded like asking for more pain. 20:08:48 *Xach* will give it a whirl 20:08:53 it is more pain, but we got it working 20:09:20 masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has joined #lisp 20:09:35 we have a few branches of clsql posted at http://wiki.github.com/UnwashedMeme/clsql 20:10:15 ls 20:10:19 whoops 20:10:37 thanks 20:17:03 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:17:49 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-121.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:22:22 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:23:04 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 20:25:33 hmm 20:26:57 antifuchs: we will watch DEAD SNOW tomorrow night 20:27:02 tonight i will watch dexter with shanna 20:27:11 err, sorry. 20:27:21 *Xach* is still getting used to juggling two channels again. 20:27:43 Xach: have fun with the nazi zombies (: 20:28:50 no spoilers! 20:30:08 only two channels? 20:30:11 all I could tell you is that there's snow 20:30:13 and it's dead 20:30:43 another movie I won't have to watch then... 20:30:55 Next you'll tell us the butler did it! 20:31:46 hi, I'm not sure why LAM-GAIN has a "," before it in this example. if I add another "," I get an error: http://paste.lisp.org/display/83541 20:32:01 before it in the expansion* 20:34:14 dear bastards: I'm coming to Boston for the first week of august (2nd-9th) and I want to meet as many of you as possible in that time :) 20:35:35 also, what's a good way to get between Boston and Montreal and Toronto - is bus practical or do sane people fly? 20:36:08 ah, nvmd. ,'lam-name 20:36:23 lukego: the train between mtl and to is a nice trip, but i'd fly to boston from montreal. 20:36:30 francogrex [n=franco@91.179.252.75] has joined #lisp 20:36:31 or vice/versa 20:36:40 Bigshot_ annotated #83535 "check this pls." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83535#2 20:36:43 thanks drewc 20:36:46 agreed on the train trip 20:36:47 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:37:12 Sikander: can you check my paste? 20:37:36 so what do you reckon guys can we organise some kind of Lisp dinner with Fare-the-man out of town? 20:37:44 -!- macdice [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["a+"] 20:37:44 hi guys, silly question perhaps: how can I convert 2d24 to 2d24 (double float) is there a function? 20:37:58 Bigshot_: Why do you use funcall so much? 20:37:59 I meant 2e24 to 2d24 20:38:16 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:38:19 Sikander: functional programming uses it :) 20:38:33 for higher level abstraction 20:39:04 Bigshot_: You don't need a funcall for the outer-func 20:39:05 Bigshot_: not uselessly 20:39:09 Sikander: nvm got it 20:39:14 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-128-245.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:39:28 Bigshot_: what salex said 20:39:44 Sikander: what else should i use then? 20:39:55 Just (+ a b)? 20:40:15 that's because (expt 2e24 5) gives error >> # while (expt 2d24 5) gives 3.2d121 20:40:44 of course. 20:41:13 ? 20:41:23 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:45 Bigshot_: I see, the error is that 2 is not of type LIST 20:41:50 Bigshot_: you don't need outer fun at all, for that matter. just reduce on #'+ 20:41:52 there's no way to fit the information in that few bits :) 20:42:06 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:42:18 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 20:42:19 Bigshot_: but beyond that, the whole thing is a mess 20:42:19 Hun? Talking to me I guess. How to do the conversion from e to d? 20:42:26 Bigshot_: there are a few... syntactic things that could be done otherwise... 20:42:29 inner-fun has a useless cond 20:42:29 heheh 20:42:30 etc. 20:42:37 (coerce ... 'double-float) 20:42:42 but that's not the thing that causes the error 20:42:49 It makes it much harder to find though 20:42:59 or simpler - just start in double float 20:43:07 (but then again, I'm not a leet lisper) 20:43:13 if it's number-crunchy, you should declare what you can 20:43:49 Sikander: i got it what the problem its 20:43:53 s/its/is 20:43:57 K 20:44:05 Bigshot_: at best, you get what *one* problem is ;) 20:44:23 hey, true thanks Hun, did it once then forgot. 20:44:24 anthonym10 [i=48093205@gateway/web/freenode/x-05d2738c1d504f38] has joined #lisp 20:44:28 salex: heheh. don't be mean :) 20:44:49 s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-168-238-95.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:16 francogrex: rule of thumb - if you have to think whether it's numbercrunchy or not, it's not. 20:45:20 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:46:03 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-53-236.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:46:18 Bigshot_: I don't even understand what it's supposed to do. Inner-product is also not a good name, since it has a meaning that doesn't fit with your code 20:46:30 yes, it's for all lisp implementations or a general rumle for all computations? 20:46:30 Bigshot_: what are you actually trying to do? 20:46:54 that's the big question indeed 20:47:18 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 20:47:35 Maybe he's not listening anymore, since he already solved the problem? 20:47:44 he's trying to do homework 20:47:57 http://paste.lisp.org/+1SGM 20:48:09 -!- alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:48:09 Dude, in the olden days, homework was supposed to be done by yourself! 20:48:31 francogrex: for all. in lisp it saves you typing as you don't have to declare then 20:48:51 `Dude'? 20:49:27 Individual 20:49:37 Entity? 20:49:46 Guy? 20:49:52 Sir or Madam? 20:49:59 `Bigshot_' will do :) 20:50:02 Ah, dudette... 20:50:15 duderino! 20:50:17 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:50:19 duder 20:50:27 Or is it Mr. Lebowski? 20:50:29 PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 20:50:52 so Sikander you got what i am trying to accomplish? 20:51:09 kpreid: ooh, clever 20:52:13 Bigshot_: Why the fuck don't you just learn some Lisp, instead of pestering the channel for days 20:52:14 Bigshot_: Yes, the example you give is an actual inner product (at least, when the first or second matrix is transposed). but the test 'matrix' in your code, I don't understand it 20:52:36 It doesn't seem to be good matrices 20:52:43 (set of matrices) 20:52:50 -!- Posterdati [n=tapioca@host177-219-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:53:10 Posterdati [n=tapioca@host49-225-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:53:11 it is vector inside of vector 20:53:17 rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 20:53:34 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:59 Bigshot_: your pasted list bears no obvious relation to the problem you describe 20:54:14 what salex says 20:54:27 :| then? 20:54:29 -!- younder [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:54:33 *Sikander* admires salex' way of just typing stuff before he thinks of it. 20:55:13 -!- alama [n=alama@c-98-207-155-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:55:18 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdsley053.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:55:20 Each matrix should be a list of lists, where each inner list has the same lenght 20:55:23 length 20:55:25 Bigshot_: create code that does? 20:55:36 I don't understand your input 20:55:56 Bigshot_: describe what you think "((1 (2 2 3) 3) 2 (3 4 5))" is 20:56:02 representing 20:56:10 it is a vector inside of a vector 20:56:21 I would do something like '((1 2 3) (4 5 6)) 20:56:29 Bigshot_: well, there's your first problem 20:56:36 Bigshot_: no it's not 20:56:44 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 20:56:45 Bigshot_: It's all sorts of stuff in a list 20:56:48 the paste I copied is an inhomogensou collection of 3 lists 20:56:54 in quite a few lists 20:57:04 exactly! 20:57:07 s/lists/elements/ 20:57:18 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 20:57:30 operating on that thing seems scary 20:57:36 it's pretty hard to do structure-dependant stuff on un- or pseudo-structured data 20:57:46 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-173-169.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:57:47 one of which is an integer, one a list of integers, and the first one again inhomogeneous 20:58:00 younder [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:58:10 maybe a recursive problem will handle that? 20:58:14 so you aren't even starting somewhere sensble relative to your problem 20:58:17 Why not use a 2d array and some loop 20:58:37 macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:58:38 -!- anthonym10 [i=48093205@gateway/web/freenode/x-05d2738c1d504f38] has quit ["Page closed"] 20:58:42 also, your description has 3x2 matrices, but the snippit above has more than 6 element.s 20:58:42 no loops here sorry 20:58:48 Bigshot_: Your input doesn't match the input given by the problem 20:58:49 so it's basically out to lunch 20:59:00 in every imagineable way 20:59:25 you could build an expert system to interpolate matrices that might be the stuff you wanted to put in 20:59:26 If you are trying to implement the inner product as you pasted it, then you're not gonna have any success with that input 20:59:32 *extrapolate 20:59:58 I doubt that's in the scope of his problem :) 21:00:04 I should say: homework 21:00:07 Sikander: that's why i am flattening the list 21:00:15 Bigshot_: ?! 21:00:31 make it flat then multiply corresponding elements 21:00:35 Bigshot_: You are trying to implement the inner product as given, with input as given 21:00:42 lisppaste: url 21:00:42 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 21:00:46 simple question here, how can I use the \e escape sequence in a FORMAT format string ? 21:00:49 your input doesn't match the input of the algorithm you describe 21:01:07 the confusion runs deep in this one 21:01:13 So you're implementing something completely different if you want to have the same outcome 21:01:18 maybe i'll just leave it 21:01:38 maybe you should back up until you understand the first step : representing your matrices 21:01:49 Wait, do what salex said. Look at your input and describe what it should be 21:01:56 and proceed from there in small steps 21:02:07 Bigshot_: first write data. then write code 21:02:12 let me show you all the valid inputs 21:02:19 the other way only works if you're a master already 21:02:24 Better yet: look at the assignment, see what the input should look like and then see what the algorithm is supposed to do 21:02:30 -!- francogrex [n=franco@91.179.252.75] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:02:54 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-92.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 21:02:54 galdor: You mean just the escape character? 21:03:04 http://paste.lisp.org/+1SGM#1 21:03:12 Bigshot_: actually, the problem you have isn't a lisp problem. It's a general programming problem, or even a math problem 21:03:37 although mathematicians would kill me for calling that a math problem 21:03:49 tcr: yep, to use ansi escape sequencse 21:03:57 *salex* sharpens a knife and looks at Sikander 21:04:11 *Sikander* gulps and smiles excusingly. 21:04:22 Bigshot_: look at the input in that paste 21:04:27 and? 21:04:35 Bigshot_: There are two lists, each of which contain two lists with three elements 21:04:42 Bigshot_: now compare that to your input 21:05:07 salex: Are you a mathematician? 21:05:27 galdor: You could look whether your implementation support #\Escape, or #\Esc, or you could use (code-char 27) on many implementations. But you may want to write a function that you can call from format via ~/esc/ 21:05:28 Bigshot_: do you see any discrepancies? 21:06:23 Sikander: yes. but i was just teasing you. understanding what an inner product space is will help bigshot..... 21:06:23 my input? 21:06:40 the annotation of that paste 21:06:56 tcr: #\Esc works for me, thank you! 21:07:08 hi, I'm not sure why lam-name gets evaluated to ,LAM-GAIN instead of just LAM-GAIN http://paste.lisp.org/display/83544 21:07:11 salex: this is just rectangular matrices! Has nothing to do with math yet! 21:07:34 tcr: it should be enough, it's just to add some color to three logging functions 21:07:48 Bigshot_: Let's take your first input ((1 2 3) 2 3) and ((6 7 8) 7 8) 21:07:50 think of it the other direction. If b understood what an I-P space was, we wouldn't be having this problem 21:07:53 :) 21:08:06 Heheh! 21:08:19 -!- Jasko3 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:08:39 Bigshot_: In the first list, I see one list with three elements, and 2 separate elements 21:08:49 Bigshot_: same for the second list 21:09:04 Bigshot_: Shouldn't the input be more something along the lines of ((1 2 3) (4 5 6)) 21:09:05 ? 21:09:17 galdor: I think I've seen some package for doing this sort of thing 21:09:23 yeah that's what i made the prog. for 21:09:40 ? 21:09:53 Bigshot_: this is too confusing. The program is supposed to generate your input? 21:10:05 no carry on Sikander 21:10:23 *Sikander* loses his mind. 21:10:30 Ooh, look at the pretty birdies! 21:10:40 And a nice pink elephant too! 21:11:06 *Sikander* cries very softly... 21:11:27 Bigshot_: The program you wrote. What is it supposed to do? 21:11:30 Bigshot_ doesn't seem to be learning anything 21:11:31 -!- Muld [n=wr23@88-196-38-55-dsl.noe.estpak.ee] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:11:48 Bigshot_: What is the input supposed to be, and what is the output supposed to be? 21:11:57 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:12:19 i already showed what the input has to be - output is a number 21:12:50 Bigshot_: So the next question is: why doesn't your input have the same appearance as what the input is supposed to be? 21:12:56 stassats: No, of course not, he doesn't have to because he'll get his problems solved here 21:13:06 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:13:15 I'm trying to help, but it's not easy... Do I get graded for this? 21:13:17 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:02 The worst thing is that this isn't even a lisp problem, so I don't learn from it either :( 21:14:13 Everybody loses... 21:14:14 so stop helping 21:14:26 Yeah, I suck, I know... :( 21:15:07 Bigshot_: Ok, for your own good, I'm not gonna help you out here. Just take a step back and look at what the algorithm is actually supposed to do 21:15:21 Does SLIME have support for code folding? 21:15:26 (also, for my sanity...) 21:15:34 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-194.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:15:44 Adlai: emacs should deal with that, not slime 21:15:44 Adlai: Emacs does 21:15:53 ok 21:16:12 (folks at #emacs said that it depends on the language, and I was wondering whether SLIME does anything) 21:16:25 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 21:16:50 No, but Lisp-mode does perhaps 21:16:59 It's probably a syntax thing, so the question would be if emacs folds lisp code 21:17:04 it depends on the major-mode, not the minor-mode 21:18:47 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@84-75-21-37.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [] 21:19:26 alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:06 oudeis [n=oudeis@77.127.65.101] has joined #lisp 21:22:00 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.54.119] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:22:07 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:23:34 hello. I am sure it has been explained here 10 times, including - to me, but it happened again to me - I have new Slime and I don't have REPL anymore...... 21:24:54 (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) 21:25:03 tried that 21:25:15 try again 21:25:15 Numlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 21:25:40 puchacz pasted "Slime no REPL" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83547 21:26:26 -!- Numlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Client Quit] 21:26:34 try without autoloads 21:26:37 puchacz: type C-x C-b to get a list of buffers. 21:27:02 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-233-162.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:27:32 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 21:28:26 pjb: no REPL buffer there. what's worse, there are no functions that begin with slime-repl, when I 'apropos' 21:28:47 *stassats* doesn't trust autoloads 21:28:49 puchacz: perhaps, restart emacs with a clean .emacs? 21:28:58 so it seems to be emacs side problem 21:30:48 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229077120.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 21:30:57 stassats: good hunch 21:31:00 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-233-162.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:45 I commented out (require 'autoloads) and it is fine now :-) 21:32:08 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:32:20 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:36:32 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70d777.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:36:57 Nshag [n=nshag@pro77-1-88-176-235-153.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:16 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:37:23 ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 21:39:10 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:39:17 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:18 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:40:23 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:41:27 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 21:42:55 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:46:27 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 21:47:38 -!- kmels [n=kmels@97.160.216.201.static.intelnet.net.gt] has quit [] 21:52:17 anyone has quick ideas why a previously working (sb-impl::toplevel-repl nil) call just hangs without printing a prompt and having a useful backtrace in slime? 21:52:40 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-93299.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:53:04 -!- Hun [n=hun@82.149.80.128] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:54:02 attila_lendvai: I put my bets on serve-event 21:54:49 fe[nl]ix: hrm, this sbcl has your poll patch applied, but that's not the one that breaks it because i used to have it when it was still working 21:55:14 -!- masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:56:05 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:56:06 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:25 fe[nl]ix: info threads in gdb says that there are two threads, one of them in accept, the other in poll... if it rings any bells 21:56:50 -!- Nshag [n=nshag@pro77-1-88-176-235-153.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:57:00 neither has symbols shown when asking for a backtrace 21:57:15 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 21:58:51 -!- TDT [i=dthole@dhcp80ff869b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has left #lisp 21:59:18 -!- sellout [n=greg@63.107.91.105] has quit [] 22:00:26 attila_lendvai: is this done in slime ? 22:00:29 or from terminal ? 22:00:34 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@adsl-89-134-7-131.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 22:00:47 -!- segv [n=mb@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 22:01:06 hm, if i put the call at the very beginning of the image init function then there's only one thread sitting in poll with only 3 C stackframes 22:01:17 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-6-126.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:01:23 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 22:02:01 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-128-245.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 22:04:51 foobie2 [i=foo123@c139-243.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 22:05:33 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-199-19-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:05:33 -!- macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["'night 'night"] 22:07:59 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.177.22] has joined #lisp 22:08:17 with 1.0.28 (+ poll patch) it seems to work 22:09:00 what version is the one that doesn't work ? 22:09:35 -!- weirdo [i=foo123@c139-243.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:09:40 head 22:10:20 but it's not an obstacle for now... i may not recognize something else which is different between my machine and the server 22:10:33 so don't spend too much time looking 22:11:27 masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has joined #lisp 22:15:01 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:16:04 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:17:43 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["There are 10 types of people in this world - those who understand binary and those who don't."] 22:23:14 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-92.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 22:25:07 Ralith: did you see my blog followup? 22:26:34 kpreid: ...I don't think so? 22:26:59 http://kpreid.livejournal.com/14713.html . that's if I correctly remember what I said to you 22:27:12 Ralith: you gotta read planet lisp to stay on top of things! 22:27:59 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:31:03 -!- vy [n=user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:31:13 vy [n=user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has joined #lisp 22:33:38 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:33:59 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 22:34:03 blogs are so 2003 22:34:18 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:34:39 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:53 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 22:43:01 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:08 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 22:43:36 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:43:54 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 22:46:00 *tcr* loves static-type systems for refactoring 22:46:31 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:46:32 what are you using? 22:46:34 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:47:24 Oh just hacking on ABCL 22:47:47 Oh, and you love Java's type system? 22:48:35 No not in particular 22:49:32 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 22:50:16 I've found test suites more useful than static types in refactoring. 22:50:59 typing is blazingly fast 22:51:28 But then again, I haven't done much refactoring in such languages. 22:52:52 -!- CuriousTrain [n=user@d199-126-165-137.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:54:28 Pepe__ [n=ppjet@78.116.2.231] has joined #lisp 22:55:31 jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 22:55:54 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:56:24 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit [Client Quit] 22:57:44 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 22:57:59 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 22:58:13 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:59:13 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:00:56 antoni [n=user@80.30.197.150] has joined #lisp 23:01:42 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 23:03:42 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483AF14.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:05:00 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@77.127.65.101] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:05:36 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@159.144.94-79.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:06:42 -!- Pepe__ is now known as Pepe_ 23:11:48 hmm, is ASDF supposed to re-compile everything when I throw away fasls if I load systems that were loaded into the core image I run? 23:11:57 that's on SBCL, let me add 23:15:27 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:16:53 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:17:31 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 23:19:00 mathrick: yes 23:19:14 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 23:19:55 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 23:20:08 some days ago my notebook has begun to emit sounds of something rorating in its inner. /var/log/messages doesn't show anything suspicious though... may I expect my harddisk to fail in close time? 23:20:14 fe[nl]ix: hmm, why's that? ASDF only looks at fasls and sees if they're newer than the source files? 23:20:16 rotating 23:20:38 and if so, how do I make it not recompile things until they've actually changed since the image was dumped? 23:20:58 tcr: or possibly the fan 23:21:03 fans can get very noisy 23:21:13 I just cleaned mine, which made it really, really silent 23:21:31 though it still fails with "fan error" on cold boot, curiously enough 23:21:36 can you easily clean a notebook's fan? 23:21:50 in general, no 23:22:22 it's a Dell fwiw 23:22:54 tcr: not easily, but it's doable. Usually the case is user-removable 23:23:05 luis pasted "LDB + simple vectors?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83551 23:23:18 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2E642.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:23:19 (doesn't it's *easy* to remove, but if you're not known for frying hardware, you should be okay) 23:23:19 in general you have to disassemble the notebook in order to get at the fan 23:23:36 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 23:23:39 tcr: generally you need to remove the keyboard to get to it 23:23:48 usually the keyboard is the easiest-removable part 23:23:55 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 23:23:59 Bah, I think I should start looking at LDB's source instead of asking all these questions. 23:24:01 if your laptop is worth anything, it will have the screws on the bottom labelled 23:24:31 tcr: also, some laptop keyboards have latches in them you're supposed to unlock with a screwdriver/nail, check for that 23:24:32 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:12 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:25:38 why is it that people like sbcl more than clisp? 23:25:47 fe[nl]ix: any hints re: ASDF + images? It's really goddamn annoying when it decides to recompile the world, and every single system errors out with the warning for DEFPACKAGE redefinition 23:25:51 does it add more to the standard library? 23:25:54 synic: Much better integration into Slime 23:26:07 compilation to fast native code 23:26:07 oh, I see 23:26:25 synic: SBCL is *fast*, very often at least and if you know what you're doing 23:26:29 type inference 23:26:42 which falls under "fast" :) 23:26:55 luis: 0xaa is SIMPLE_VECTOR_WIDETAG 23:27:16 piso: yes, I know, which is why it looks like LDB doesn't know about it. 23:27:25 written mostly in Lisp instead of awkward C with custom preprocessor 23:28:08 -!- masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:28:29 are there any advantages to clisp at all? 23:28:44 It runs on more platforms 23:28:54 ok 23:28:55 it's smaller 23:29:18 two things I don't care about. 23:29:20 sbcl it is 23:29:39 Make sure to use Slime though, SBCL is unusable without it 23:29:57 meh...not unusable 23:29:59 not any more unusable than CLISP 23:30:22 yeah, been using slime 23:30:41 luis: well, clisp comes with readline compiled in by default, which is a lot more usable 23:30:46 Clisp comes with readline, so it's usable for simple stuff. If I want to quickly test something, I surely fire up clisp rather than sbcl 23:30:50 mathrick: you're not alone. people have been asking for a way to mark systems as "non-compilable", but AFAIK nothing has been concluded thus far 23:30:52 Nshag [n=nshag@pro77-1-88-176-235-153.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:52 not that it's anywhere near what you'd expect from a proper REPL 23:31:00 fe[nl]ix: bummer 23:31:03 but thanks 23:31:09 synic: make sure that you got slime from CVS 23:31:16 that I didn't do 23:31:19 tcr: I just run rlwrap sbcl... 23:31:23 synic: and make sure that your .emacs contains (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) 23:31:41 mathrick, tcr: I use 'rlwrap sbcl' 23:31:42 k 23:32:44 though perhaps not as often as clisp :) 23:32:49 synic: If you installed slime from your distribution's package system, make sure to purge its old installation 23:32:54 is hunchentoot the best cl web server at the moment? 23:32:57 done and done 23:33:01 synic: including the cl-swank package 23:33:36 DeusExPikachu: It's probably the mostly used at the moment, so you'll easily find people who can help you out 23:33:53 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:33:57 tcr, k 23:36:11 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@174.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:37:37 piso: I think print_otherptr() in print.c has not been ported to 64-bit archs. It doesn't check for OTHER_IMMEDIATE_[23]_LOWTAG 23:38:33 luis: oh, I don't need to use SBCL without slime 23:38:43 I was just pointing out that "no more" is not really true 23:39:09 tcr: does (slime-fancy) do anything cool that I might not have seen prior to loading cvs here? 23:39:17 how do you send stuff from all threads' *standard-output* to the slime repl? I forgot :( 23:39:18 guess I could just dink around and see 23:39:18 sykopomp, memo from p_l: According to Japanese Wikipedia,  is the correct romanization. Still, TTCL would be a COOL name for lisp book :) 23:39:54 p_l: oic 23:40:20 sykopomp: put (setf swank:*globally-redirect-io* t) into your ~/.swank.lisp 23:40:42 tcr: ty 23:40:46 synic: Dunno what you used priorly 23:40:56 let's see 23:40:58 luis: yeah, looks like a simple change at print.c:504 or so 23:41:02 How familiar are you with Slime? 23:41:12 slime 1:20080223-2 23:41:50 Dunno, arglist display, and M-. for local functions/macros perhaps 23:42:44 proper suppressing of forms conditionalized out by #+/#- 23:42:47 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:45:50 -!- Nshag [n=nshag@pro77-1-88-176-235-153.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["(( (x) (x x)) ( (x) (x x)))"] 23:46:00 Nshag [n=nshag@pro77-1-88-176-235-153.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:42 danlei [n=user@pD9E2E642.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:24 synic: Skim through http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/slime-talk-2008.pdf -- perhaps you'll learn something new 23:50:25 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:50:36 k 23:52:36 Okay, this is gonna seem surprisingly trivial considering that, like, my code's working fine and everything, and I'm a few thousand lines in by now, but... is there a particular normal file extension for common lisp source? I've been lazily marking it as if they were scheme, 'cause emacs seems to indent 'em properly if I do but didn't like my guesses as to what common lisp might use (or at least, wasn't indenting those right). 23:52:47 *bombshelter13_* wonders if perhaps he's just not using the right extension. 23:54:13 bombshelter13_: .lisp 23:54:55 Huh, that's the first thing I tried. In that case, I guess I'm off to #emacs to go see if they know why my copy isn't indenting that right. :/ 23:58:36 sunwukong [n=vukung@210-20-93-83.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:59:01 oudeis [n=oudeis@77.127.65.101] has joined #lisp 23:59:02 syamajal_ [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:28 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]