00:00:14 rsynnott: there are limits on overall roaming charges. Result? It's more expensive for me to call from UK mobile to UK mobile, than to call to other EU country :D 00:01:00 oh 00:01:05 *rsynnott* hasn't noticed anything 00:01:11 otoh, GPRS sucks for latency. UMTS makes it slightly better, but iirc still 300ms minimum with 800ms being quite common... 00:01:31 I may just have not been paying attention; seems unlikely that Ireland is somehow expempt 00:01:44 GPRS is the worst exercise ever for one's patience when working remotely. 00:01:47 HSDPA is just about manageable for latency; 100-200 00:01:57 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:02:01 I'm getting up to 14 seconds rountrip times. 00:02:18 (where I am at the moment) 00:02:33 eek 00:02:50 Funnily, my ipv6 connections forwarded over a tunnel via UDP seem to get much better handling for some reason. 00:03:05 Perhaps UDP is prioritized by the ISP somehow. 00:03:08 that's very odd 00:03:18 maybe the phone company has some odd problem 00:03:41 Maybe TCP gets tonnes of retransmissions and such, yeah. 00:04:19 But pings are ICMP and they measured those 14 seconds+ at times. 00:04:30 Whatever. It's terrible anyhow :) 00:04:49 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:04:54 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:05:16 *p_l* once played MUD with 3s ping. Interesting experience to have lag-related problems in MUD, that is 00:05:35 willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 00:06:49 Time for a nap. Good night, everyone. 00:07:25 p_l: can you explain me this ? http://paste.lisp.org/+1SCP 00:07:47 koft [n=kvirc@adsl-221-112-72.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:51 i am getting different answer 00:07:54 in interpreter 00:08:46 is there a way, in emacs, to set a flag or variable on a window to prevent it from being used to display crap from a random command? 00:09:50 what's with the totally weird style, Bigshot_ ? .. it's very painful to read that 00:10:15 koft: I don't think it ever is. If I get you right, new buffers are created for spitting out random info. 00:10:26 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:37 Bigshot_: I see no (funcall a) or anything like that 00:10:57 so what's the answer? 00:11:04 -!- rwanderley [n=user@189.77.29.25] has left #lisp 00:11:04 42 00:11:09 hehe 00:11:11 Bigshot_: You mixed Scheme and CL 00:11:18 <_3b> Bigshot_: why are you assuming your lisp doesn't know the correct answer? 00:11:35 *p_l* just put the code into SBCL and read warnings 00:11:46 i usually find like 20 buffers active, from bouncing around in files and when i C-x Cb it pops up the list then picks a random window to dump the file in 00:12:20 -!- demmel [n=demmel@94.216.87.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:13:00 koft: Dunno, perhaps #emacs will be a better place to ask. 00:13:08 i think it picks the "next" window in the window list or something, but i can't ever figure out the state so from my perspective half the time i do something emacs fucks everything up 00:13:36 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:41 yea, i should give that a shot 00:13:58 i just figured that most people here use slime and are familiar with it 00:14:00 p_l: what's your answer by look at that? 00:14:06 s/look/looking 00:15:20 Bigshot_: that you mixed up namespaces - (setq b 'a) won't make (b ...) work 00:16:02 you mean (setq b 'e)? which (setq b a)? 00:16:02 so far, a is 'c 00:16:23 "setq b 'e will set b to "a" and a is a function" <--- false 00:16:45 why false? 00:16:54 ciupicri [n=ciupicri@81.180.234.249] has joined #lisp 00:17:03 maybe i should just (convert-to-islam (and 'blow-my-self-up 'in-a-mcdonalds) t) 00:17:15 -!- ciupicri [n=ciupicri@81.180.234.249] has left #lisp 00:18:21 Bigshot_: Because namespace for variables and functions are separate in CL, so while you bound a function object to a "variable", it's not callable (I'm no lawyer, don't expect me to explain it correctly) 00:19:17 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:19:52 i don't understand p_l 00:20:14 -!- demmel_ [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-090-033.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 00:21:59 Bigshot_: if you want to use something like setf to bind a function to symbol, use something like: (setf (symbol-function 'twice) #'(lambda (x) (list x x))) 00:22:11 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@125.93.105.39] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:22:43 i was going to link to PCL, but PCL doesn't actually talk much about this .. hum 00:24:00 hyperspec does speak, but I don't feel confident enough to guide at 0122 :/ 00:24:09 yeah, http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_symbol.htm 00:24:26 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:26:42 lnostdal: can you simplify that in few lines? 00:26:48 no 00:26:50 heh :) 00:26:54 -!- defunkt [n=user@c-24-130-33-61.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:27:00 why y? 00:27:06 because i'm stupid 00:27:11 hehehehe 00:27:55 maybe others can .. "lisp 2 namespace" @ google gives a couple of results .. a paper by kent pitman, a couple of hits on stackoverflow.com etc. 00:29:04 Bigshot_: those expressions are implementation dependant; (b f) --> (((A . #1=((B)))) (#1#)) ; in clisp 00:29:45 you answer is correct pjb 00:29:48 your* 00:30:00 It's not my answer, it's clisp's answer! 00:30:02 but i don't get that answer in interpreter 00:30:13 Bigshot_: of course, since it's implementation dependant. 00:30:47 <_3b> pjb: which part is implementation dependent? 00:31:03 setq of undefined variables. 00:31:50 using INSPECT to look at symbols show how they have multiple properties or "fields" though, Bigshot_ http://nostdal.org/lnostdal/programming/lisp/temp/lisp-2.lisp 00:32:02 <_3b> pjb: ah, right, forgot about that part 00:32:29 ..and functions like SYMBOL-FUNCTION and SYMBOL-VALUE (mentioned on that hyperspec page) etc. can be used to set/get the fields or properties of a symbol 00:34:35 <_3b> Bigshot_: also, (setq b 'e) sets the variable binding named by B to the symbol E, since you quoted it, not to the value of E 00:35:09 <_3b> (assuming you have done something to avoid the undefined behavior pjb mentioned) 00:35:49 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-755b0fc1a731e8cc] has joined #lisp 00:36:45 what's the difference between lexical function and function? 00:36:53 how long does it take to be somewhat competent at lisp? 6 months, a year? A few years? I've been putting in at least 3-4 hours a day for the past two weeks, and as far as i can tell, it looks like i've got at least 3 months before i'll be able to do anything usefull like I can in c 00:37:06 ten years, tops. 00:37:18 though i've been using c for a decade 00:37:23 heh 00:37:34 koft: that sounds very strange. in two weeks you should be able to do a lot of useful things. 00:37:49 koft: I'd say 4-5 years to get proficient, at least 10 to master it 00:38:25 willb2 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 00:38:33 i can do a lot right now, i've rebuilt SBCL (needed alien function support for clg), learned a lot about ASDF, how to load stuff in, how to use slime, how to use emacs 00:38:51 i'm starting to learn my way around the GTK bindings in CLG 00:39:07 fe[nl]ix: given than the ANSI standard is only about 15 years old, maybe there is a next step after mastering that no-one has reached yet ;) 00:39:31 lol 00:39:48 the prefix notation wasn't a stumbling block 00:39:58 well, when it comes to guis, it gets harder with the free lisps at least. but that is mainly because it's such a fucking pain to interface to C/C++. for other types of applications, you should see a clear advantage with CL very quickly. 00:40:08 hypno: in two weeks you can learn how to "do useful things" with any language, but learning enough to be able to write a (good) novel take much more 00:40:14 drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:35 well, sure, but there is no need to learn /all/ of CL first. 00:40:36 to paraphrase dick gabriel :) 00:40:36 saikat_ [n=saikat@67.180.9.222] has joined #lisp 00:40:56 i took a good stab at allegro with their gui library, but i couldn't figure it out 00:41:27 i'm really struggling with libraries in general as the documentation isn't nearly as good as it is in other langs 00:41:53 heck, when I started out, coming from C as well, i was immensly impressed by keywords and optional arguments, returning all sorts of things without issue, hotswapping and recompilation, DISASSEMBLE, etc. hell, just defun is one major step above C. 00:42:22 -!- kerimbasol [n=kerim@212.174.90.98] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:42:24 and there isn't anywhere near the ammount of information you can pull up on the web like you can with say... vb or c# or c++ or python, etc 00:42:25 koft: anyway, IMO clg is the best portable gtk+ binding 00:42:44 i'm actually getting somewhere with clg, 00:43:10 koft: with CCL you make life a lot easier when it comes to interfacing with C libraries. it's simply great. 00:43:30 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:44:04 i'm actually enjoying lisp though, so the 3-4 hours i spend on it a day isn't a chore 00:44:31 *lnostdal* hands koft a "Happy Meal" .. heheh :) 00:44:36 lol 00:46:37 (disassemble 'somefunc) had me pretty impressed 00:47:15 george_ [n=george@189.107.197.57] has joined #lisp 00:47:37 how to create a gui in common lisp ? 00:48:03 george_: by working hard, like in any other programming language. 00:48:11 not visual basic! 00:48:43 i mean ... is there any lib to create a gui in lisp ? 00:49:06 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-215-139.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:19 clg supposedly can take in a glade xml file and do something with it 00:49:29 but i haven't figured out how to do that yet 00:49:29 george_: strangely enough, I interpret "create a gui" as creating a library to let application implement GUI. 00:49:45 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-755b0fc1a731e8cc] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:49:47 george_, same way you do in any language (python+pygtk+ etc.); you do a backflip into the pit of hell that is interfacing with C libraries .. or you can start believing that js/html/css is the new X Window System and do the Web GUI thing .. etc. 00:50:02 in allegro, they have a forms editor 00:50:20 lnostdal: or you bash your head against mcclim until you (or it) gives 00:50:31 or hack some CLX.. 00:50:35 george_: http://www.cliki.net/admin/search?words=gui 00:50:45 or revive garnet.. 00:51:00 No need to revive it, it's just usable as always. 00:51:22 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:12 pjb how many hours do you code in a day? 00:54:47 kerimbasol [n=kerim@212.174.90.98] has joined #lisp 00:54:57 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:55:07 your brain seems to work like a compiler hehehe 00:55:53 -!- willb2 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Success] 00:56:12 willb2 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 00:57:33 Bigshot_: 16 h/day. 00:57:53 WoW! 00:58:06 don't you get tired? 00:58:07 Unfortunately, 8 h/day it's C++, so I need to add 8 hours of lisp to keep sanity. 00:58:27 you must be having pretty comfy chair 00:58:34 :-) 01:00:35 -!- willb2 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:00:59 willb2 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 01:03:27 so you like denotational programming more than operational programming 01:05:31 Yes, it's less tiring. 01:06:15 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B169C69.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:07:49 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-89-252.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:10:26 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:11 -!- willb2 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:13:08 fvw [n=sdfpme@125.93.105.39] has joined #lisp 01:13:54 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:14:28 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:16:28 awfaw [n=eagaw@host250.190-224-109.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 01:17:14 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:21:37 pjb: how do you create a gui in your lisp applications ? 01:22:24 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-124-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:31 george_: as a newbie, LTK is likely to be the simplest. Lispworks CAPI is also relatively easy. otherwise you are off into FFI land. 01:23:19 Well, since the web was invented, I hadn't to create much GUi applications. Once I tried Garnet and found it nice. For a more native look and feel, I'd just interface with the host GUI (ie. Cocoa on MacOSX). 01:23:26 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 01:25:20 -!- Samy is now known as sbahra 01:25:42 perhaps evil, but it would be cool to have a simple LW-delivered CAPI proxy, which you can talk to over a socket or whatever. 01:26:02 pjb with which language one can build state-of-the-art gui? 01:26:16 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 01:26:30 Bigshot_: with any language. OO may help. 01:26:55 how about faster... 01:27:24 java netbeans? 01:27:32 The fastest code is the code that doesn't exist. The second fastest code is the one that doesn't need to be executed. 01:27:50 hehehe 01:27:53 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has left #lisp 01:29:24 do you consider yourself fit to design a space shuttle program? pjb? 01:29:31 willb2 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 01:29:51 Why this sudden rafale of meaningless questions? 01:30:06 nah.. just wondering answer only if you feel like 01:30:24 Yeah of course. 01:30:27 cool 01:30:28 As anybody else. 01:32:42 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 01:33:28 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@76.122.37.30] has joined #lisp 01:34:40 -!- Pegazus [n=eagaw@host250.190-224-109.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:34:48 define "design a space shuttle program" 01:36:10 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@125.93.105.39] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:37:26 involving lots of intricate calculations which require high precision hehe 01:37:40 ada 01:39:15 JPL used Lisp to generate machine code for microcontrollers on spacecraft 01:40:12 p_l: you are still awake? 01:40:31 Bigshot_: don't ask 01:41:50 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:44:47 fvw [n=sdfpme@125.93.105.39] has joined #lisp 01:48:08 blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:27 I want to do (setf (fdefinition 'random-mt) #'random-uniform) 01:48:37 but random-uniform is a macro 01:48:57 is there a solution other than using lambda the only solution 01:51:16 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has quit [] 01:57:42 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@113.77.29.173] has joined #lisp 02:01:42 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-65.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:04:48 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:26 seesh .. depressive reading; http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/903eh/as_progressively_dumber_programmers_build/ 02:08:07 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@67.180.9.222] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:12:08 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:12:39 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@113.77.29.173] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:13:10 saikat_ [n=saikat@67.180.9.222] has joined #lisp 02:17:26 Bigshot_: Deep Space One used some lisp software 02:17:36 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@120.28.131.253] has quit [] 02:17:42 as did a few subsequent NASA and ESA spacecraft 02:17:55 Ariane V, however, uses the exploding version of Ada 02:18:58 lol 16 hours/day 02:19:10 rsynnott: Ariane disabled the safety checks inherent to Adaq 02:19:16 can't blame Ada for that 02:19:51 except maybe giving them the option to disable checks 02:21:58 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 02:23:16 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 02:23:33 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Operation timed out] 02:26:31 ironically, that ariane was designed back when they wanted to man-rate the rocket class 02:27:20 (they now want to do this again; the ATV thing is likely to be redesigned as a human-carrying craft 02:27:41 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2DF5A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:29:12 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:14 they actually have very little choice, due to no more shuttles, but it's been a while since manned spacecraft have been launched on rockets which publicly explode occasionally, so there may be some resistance) 02:30:29 uh 02:30:50 wasn't Challenger blown up by rocket failure? 02:31:13 well, yes, but that's a little while ago now 02:31:29 yeah. 02:31:37 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:31:39 and it was sort of unexpected, and they couldn't very well kill the whole shuttle over it 02:31:50 better it blows up on the unmanned trips 02:33:01 chemical rockets are basically a lot of various grades of explosives rigged together to make you fly. they're pretty inherently dangerous no matter how well we engineer around them. 02:33:26 but space travel became extremely risk-averse quite quickly; Vostok I and especially Liberty Bell I were launched on very unreliable platforms, but by the time the moon race was on, the Soviets considered Proton unacceptable as a base for manned lunar missions because it tended to explode 02:33:37 yeah 02:34:55 (the Zond missions, consisting of proton-launched Soyuzes orbiting the moon, would have been quite acceptable in the a decade earlier, but was not considered suitable for manned space travel by the moon race) 02:35:30 they also had to consider that failure that resulted in death would probably have been publicized by the US 02:35:40 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 02:35:59 oh, yes; I'm pretty certain that's why space travel is risk-averse in the first place 02:36:03 since both countries spied on each other's space program 02:36:16 Is there an email client written in lisp? 02:36:23 I'm sure there'd be no shortage of volunteers today to go on a possibly-explodey thing which would go round the moon 02:36:23 Emacs :P 02:36:34 *rsynnott* probably would :) 02:37:03 rsynnott: I'm not interested in space travel until we can solve the "get stuff cheaply to orbit" problem 02:37:18 until then it's mostly goofing off 02:37:22 they should have gone with Orion... 02:37:26 Adamant: we could solve that problem if we were willing to pay in the first place ;-) 02:37:35 (the slightly ridiculous but quite cheap atom-bomb powered thing) 02:37:59 rsynnott: the cumulative environmental impact is the main reason that really nixed it 02:38:05 unfortunately chemical rockets simply aren't ever going to be very affordable 02:38:23 Adamant: In the 60s, when they were testing multiple large bombs a year? 02:38:26 allotrope [n=jeff@c-67-161-219-3.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:33 Adamant: Orion drive is considered for usage in space 02:38:44 rsynnott: they also signed a test ban shortly after the 60's 02:38:47 (the mid-sized 8,000 tonne orion was meant to produce about as much fallout as one 10MT test) 02:38:50 -!- allotrope [n=jeff@c-67-161-219-3.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:39:08 rsynnott: now imagine dozens of them taking off daily 02:39:21 the totally ridiculous 8,000,000 tonne orion only about 20 times that; they apparently scaled incredibly well 02:39:37 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:39:41 p_l: Orion was also to get off the ground, which is the hard part. 02:39:56 Adamant: Build self-sufficient industry in space, do only passenger flights 02:39:59 for space use, yeah, no problem 02:40:07 not as interesting in space, though 02:40:22 there are already ways to get around space reasonably quickly 02:40:23 allotrope [n=jeff@c-67-161-219-3.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:29 -!- allotrope [n=jeff@c-67-161-219-3.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:41:03 there are some things I'd prefer not to run on planet 02:41:09 (though the orion was interesting in that the technique could in principle do a high-speed flyby of alpha centuri in about 60 years travel time; much longer if you wanted to slow down) 02:41:28 like singularity reactors. They better not blowup on earth 02:41:43 ok, what sci-fi is that from? 02:42:20 Adamant: the one called "collective knowledge on blackholes that managed to enter my puny brain" 02:42:26 we're having enough trouble with fusion 02:42:37 Adamant: if you mean the interstellar orion, it was seriously considered 02:42:44 I'm not sure how you get energy out of a black hole 02:42:53 rsynnott: no, singularity reactors 02:43:04 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:43:14 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:21 Adamant: Hawking radiation, iirc. black holes tend to evaporate, the idea is to keep one at equilibrium 02:43:21 ah 02:43:30 Adamant: throw things into them 02:43:32 but I'm not a physicist 02:43:42 the big problem is finding one in the first place :) 02:43:47 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:43:57 rsynnott: I'm not an expert but I knew a bit about Project Orion 02:44:20 rsynnott: creating one. The ones we could find probably won't happily go into equilibrium :P 02:44:55 p_l: how do we get more energy out if we create it? 02:45:11 I guess the volume of mass we dump into it 02:45:19 Adamant: apparently they might in principle produce quite a bit of energy if you through some in 02:45:39 but I don't think that there is any vaguely even theoretically practical way to make one known of 02:45:41 how efficient is the conversion? 02:45:56 compared to something like antimatter 02:46:01 Adamant: basically, you might create one, but unless you pump energy/mass they will lose said energy faster than they gather it 02:46:07 Do Kevin Rosenberg still show up here sometimes? 02:46:11 Er, Does 02:46:30 Stephen Hawking thinks there may be one living in an asteroid, of course :) 02:46:49 Adamant: iirc close e=mc^2 except you don't need to produce matter-antimatter first, you can just dump mass into it 02:47:30 I'll just be happy if we get efficient fusion working in my lifetime 02:47:52 that would sure solve a lot of problems. 02:47:54 well, if the thing is losing its entire mass as energy, you would presumably get exactly e=mc^2 out eventually 02:47:54 Adamant: that's why I'm rather interested in possibilities of extending said lifetime :D 02:48:02 just a question of the timescales, of course 02:48:05 claar [n=claar@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 02:48:15 Hello 02:48:27 claar: help 02:48:28 draw ; will draw the 02:48:33 p_l: I am too, I just take into account the fact that I'm going to die, whether it's 10, 20, 60, or a billion years from now :P 02:48:43 claar: draw (defun f (x) (+ 2 x)) 02:48:44 Could not draw that sexp for The value (:ATOM-DECORATION X :W 5 :H 3 :X 0 :Y 0) is not of type (OR NULL COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.CONS-TO-ASCII::CONS-DECORATION). 02:48:51 Oops. 02:48:52 Adamant: the ITER people are saying that they'll have something commercially viable in 2050 02:49:17 rsynnott: we hope. Lord knows that's been said about fusion often enough. 02:49:17 (in the meantime, there's fission :) ) 02:49:20 rsynnott: one kept at equilibrium would probably have event horizon of <1m if not 1 true. 02:49:27 *<1cm 02:49:38 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:49:42 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 02:50:04 -!- willb2 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Success] 02:50:06 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:50:06 yep, there's a film from the 60s with a British Energy spokesman talking about how they'd have fusion by 1980 :) 02:50:25 unless they've been keeping very quiet about it this is not the case 02:50:27 rsynnott: I think they're more realistic now :P 02:50:42 -!- jao [n=jao@52.Red-83-43-32.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 02:50:57 rsynnott: the question is, whether "have fusion" or "generate power through fusion" 02:51:09 p_l: oh, well, they have it now 02:51:17 Adamant: don't forget the whole opposition against nuclear industry 02:51:18 p_l: we have fusion already, h-bombs 02:51:31 Adamant: also various reactors 02:51:44 Adamant: We have toaster-sized devices that generate stable thermonuclear fusion reactions 02:51:49 they just don't produce a net energy gain, or at least not for a useful time 02:51:57 p_l: Farnsworth Fusors 02:52:00 heard of them 02:52:05 and forget the hippies 02:52:09 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:52:11 (JET can apparently produce energy profit for milliseconds at a time) 02:52:27 p_l: opposition to nuclear energy is dying a way a bit, now, I think 02:52:32 just turn it on and off really fast? :P 02:52:45 Adamant: oh, I think they need a few months to prepare 02:52:49 :( 02:52:51 jao [n=jao@52.Red-83-43-32.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:59 rsynnott: finally 02:53:00 (ITER is more or less a big version of JET) 02:53:03 I was sure something like that was the case 02:53:19 rsynnott: we lost way too much time and resources to that opposition 02:53:31 I think people have now realised, if nothing else, that 'clean coal' is the coal industry's answer to nuclear fusion 02:53:43 (sounds nice, does not work and won't for the forseeable future) 02:53:47 coal has been very stupid 02:53:57 in not actually investment real money into that venture 02:54:04 it would solve most of their problems 02:54:23 Adamant: it's apparently still questionable whether it would ever be economically possible 02:54:30 and especially whether it would be safe 02:54:40 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 02:54:40 rsynnott: probably economically possible 02:54:55 with the right tech 02:54:59 safe, all comes down to how they store the carbon 02:55:25 Adamant: the predictions for the first plants are coming out somewhere between gas and wind in terms of cost 02:55:31 coal powerplants. The greatest source of radioactive nuclear fallout ever, without any control 02:55:42 p_l: yeah the irony 02:56:07 rsynnott: the plants will improve 02:56:18 well, yes, eventually, maybe 02:56:20 Adamant: I heard that if you take a meter to heaps of ash from powerplant, it will go crazy like you had gone to open pool reactor ;-) 02:56:39 remember, it has taken 50 years or so for nuclear to actually get into the 'cheap' category 02:56:58 mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-215-139.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:09 (the first wave of nuclear plants, in particular, were not built on an economically practical basis 02:57:51 rsynnott: there might have been other factors, like power density and logistics 02:58:11 not to mention production of material for nukes 02:58:20 the UK one was largely for weapons materials production, the Soviet one was really just a test, and the US, after the British and Soviets both opened plants, went to the bizarre extreme of just putting an aircraft carrier reactor in a building and calling it a nuclear power plant 02:58:27 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Success] 02:58:38 ? 02:59:23 shippingport 02:59:41 the Navy make some pretty good reactors, thanks to Rickover. 03:00:14 not cheap at all, though 03:01:06 oh I'm sure. but also probably had a fairly low risk of a early Chernobyl. 03:03:15 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:30 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:09 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:13:22 joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 03:16:22 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-30.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 03:17:27 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 03:20:32 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:23:02 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:30:13 -!- claar 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quit ["Verlassend"] 07:28:03 How on earth do I escape a quote inside a string? 07:28:52 "\"" 07:29:24 Um. That's printed as "\"" not """ as I'd expect. Confusing. 07:29:27 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:29:40 try (princ "\"") then try (prin1 "\"") 07:30:01 the lookup the difference between princ and prin1 at the hyperspec 07:30:02 both the same. 07:30:16 no, they do not print the same 07:30:18 try again 07:30:26 they did in my repl 07:30:39 try again 07:30:40 jmbr [n=jmbr@226.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 07:30:45 Is that prin-one or prin-l 07:30:54 one 07:31:19 no, sorry. the same. clisp win32 if that helps. 07:31:20 moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 07:31:35 <_3b> don't confuse the return value printed by the repl with what the form prints 07:31:37 I know one is going through the pretty printer and one isn't. Weird. 07:31:43 aha 07:32:02 It was in my *inferior-lisp* buffer. 07:32:21 *slime-repl clisp* isn't capturing standard out 07:32:30 <_3b> you could also try (coerce "\"" 'list) 07:32:45 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 07:32:56 hum, that's just wrong .. you should figure out what's up with the slime or emacs setup then 07:33:00 fusss [i=738027c1@gateway/web/freenode/x-18164882ec5b45c0] has joined #lisp 07:33:06 greetings 07:33:36 morning fuss 07:33:38 s 07:34:09 lnostdal: ccl works fine. 07:34:23 lnostodal: I'm scared to touch it in case it gets worse. 07:34:33 minion: memo for p_l: "CLSQL can map primary/unique keys to sequences. (create-sequence 'user-id) then (def-view-class user () ((id :initform (next-sequence 'user-id))) :-) 07:34:34 Remembered. I'll tell p_l when he/she/it next speaks. 07:34:43 hey lnostdal :-P 07:36:03 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.51.25] has joined #lisp 07:36:12 lnostdal: you postmodernists will be shunned by the wave of neo-clsqlists that i am about to found 07:37:11 *lnostdal* has forgotten why he switched from clsql to postmodern 07:37:34 clsql allows me to scale my application up, from mysql to sqlite3 then to the memory store of my choice, all while maintaining a clean string-based SQL syntax. 07:38:31 lnostdal: confusion, hearsay and misjudgement that's what. CLSQL is perfectly find for anyone's php-replacing efforts. 07:38:45 i use a lisp side cache of objects anyway .. "memory store" 07:39:37 qual? 07:42:07 qual? 07:45:53 ZabaQ: Update Slime. 07:46:10 tcr: ok 07:46:16 lichtblau [n=user@pD9543696.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:47:41 the tricky stuff is beyond what clsql or postmodern provides anyway .. i just want something simple that works at that level, and postmodern worked better for my uses (i do not recall exactly why; but i think clsql had made some compromises i did not like because of its multiple backend support) 07:47:48 ok, dinner time 07:47:58 fvw [n=sdfpme@125.93.105.39] has joined #lisp 07:48:38 what's the historical context for the names princ and prin1? 07:49:01 -!- Guest87451 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 07:49:24 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 07:50:49 -!- fusss [i=738027c1@gateway/web/freenode/x-18164882ec5b45c0] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 07:51:29 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250050.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:53:17 -!- lat__ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:55:54 rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176149429.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 07:59:01 macdice [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:00:14 i dunno; PRINT was taken? :) 08:01:02 danlei [n=user@pD954F679.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:58 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 08:12:01 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:12:51 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:13:12 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@125.93.105.39] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:15:16 g'day 08:15:51 hello schme 08:16:00 hey beach man :) 08:16:53 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@226.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:19:39 helle schme 08:19:45 hey bob_f man :) 08:19:55 Aren't you popular. 08:20:25 oh yes. two hellos in one day! 08:22:02 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:23:58 ejs [n=eugen@78-23-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 08:25:00 Ordered me a beagleboard here. Will be a bunch of fun trying to get the sbcl or ccl running on it (: 08:25:49 sbcl runs on arm? .. or, uh, maybe that's what you mean .. heh :) 08:25:58 exactly ;) 08:26:57 <_3b> beach: sicl only has a parser for LOOP, and doesn't generate code for it yet, right? 08:27:43 _3b: That sounds right. I haven't looked at it for a while, and my memory is terrible. 08:28:42 <_3b> ok, i might have to implement that at some point then, DO is annoying :) 08:28:54 _3b: I agree! :) 08:30:06 <_3b> not sure what i'd do about symbol/package stuff though, since i don't really have those yet 08:30:27 _3b: Remind me what you are working on. 08:30:34 <_3b> not sure if i have hash tables either for that matter 08:30:39 <_3b> compiling to flash bytecode 08:30:50 oh, right. 08:31:18 jmbr [n=jmbr@226.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 08:32:18 <_3b> almost have the new version of the compiler to a releasable state, just need to rewrite all the stuff that still uses the old compiler 08:35:27 fvw [n=sdfpme@125.93.105.39] has joined #lisp 08:38:51 flambard` [n=user@c-b05171d5.430-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:49:15 -!- vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:51:27 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-12-30.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:51:46 ptnet [n=d@94-193-159-90.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:52:06 what is winbinder? 08:52:39 ptnet: "The native Windows binding for PHP" ? 08:52:59 <_3b> 'not particularly lisp related' was my guess :p 08:53:12 google > guess 08:53:28 <_3b> schme: that was the basis for my guess :) 08:53:28 hmm 08:53:45 ptnet: Why are we wondering? 08:54:32 processing . o r g. is that 4 playstation? 08:55:39 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176149429.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 08:55:41 elderK [n=elderK@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:55:47 ptnet: I'm sorry. This is not #random-questions :) 08:55:58 -!- elderK [n=elderK@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #lisp 08:56:26 ptnet: But hitting up the site tells me it is available fro linux OS X and windows. 08:57:03 yep, none of the consoles yet, I guess 08:57:19 It looks like some horrible C. 08:57:46 would be nice, to create: Hello Circle! 08:58:08 ptnet: So what brings you to #lisp? 08:58:24 bu with the consoles you may get the reserved words in the menus 08:58:35 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 08:58:41 ptnet: You are new here right? 08:59:18 ptnet: I love random chatting as much as the next guy, but I have not an idea what you're talking about. 08:59:19 I don't know lisp. Have studied rolog, though. Long time ago 08:59:27 prolog 09:00:03 So, are you planning to learn Lisp? 09:00:15 it's a pitty there are not flash based prolog interpreters/compiler 09:01:05 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@217.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 09:01:19 ptnet: I'm trying to decide if you are trolling or not. 09:01:39 Thank you, #lisp, for listening to my thoughts. I solved my problem :-) 09:02:06 ptnet: shouldnt' take long to port a basic prolog interpreter to as3 09:02:12 flambard`: you're welcome. 09:02:39 bye! 09:02:42 -!- flambard` [n=user@c-b05171d5.430-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 09:02:58 Now what I am imagining here is beagleboard + touchscreen + mcclim and putting it all in the kitchen for displaying recipies. 09:03:40 *_3b* could use one of those 09:03:53 I suppose it could be done with ssh -X and it would save me the woes of trying to get mcclim running on ARM.. but what fun is that :) 09:04:08 ptget [n=d@94-193-159-90.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:04:49 LISP must be great to create brain teasers and music 09:05:26 ptget: We have written in "Lisp" for a couple of decades now. 09:05:56 ok, not UNIX then 09:05:57 ptnet: There is Common Music for algorithmic music creation on Lisp. But it is now developed in scheme instead of CL. 09:06:23 What would be very enjoyable is something like pure data on lisp :) 09:06:41 I was wondering what is schemma-free. is that related? 09:07:05 ptnet: I think schema-free is some xml thing ? 09:08:46 markup thing? 09:09:21 must be, in having 1, and 01 and +-1 be different 09:09:37 I imagine schema-free means without xml schema 09:10:05 schme: I think you are right that pt[ng]et is trolling. 09:10:44 beach: My troll meter is somewhat reacting. :) 09:10:48 *schme* goes to make tea instead. 09:13:47 ok, will wait for playstation.processing.2.org 09:13:55 -!- ptget [n=d@94-193-159-90.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 09:14:39 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 09:15:43 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@226.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:16:36 Well that was odd. 09:17:02 _3b: Why not just use an existing LOOP implementation? It expands down to TAGBODY, GO. (Not that I wouldn't mind written a LOOP from scratch, the MIT-style LOOP implementations does not look that bad.) 09:18:17 <_3b> tcr: that would probably work too 09:19:12 But yeah you should get packages first. Isn't that hard once you've got hash-tables for symbols. 09:19:56 <_3b> nah, LOOP would probably be more immediately useful :) 09:20:41 <_3b> i can sort-of pretend that AVM2 namespace/package/symbol stuff is close enough to the cl versions to get by for now 09:21:12 -!- ptnet [n=d@94-193-159-90.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:22:42 _3b: SACLA seems to come with hash-tables, packages, and even LOOP: http://homepage1.nifty.com/bmonkey/lisp/sacla/index-en.html 09:23:01 Dunno how easily that'll be bootstrappable for you 09:23:14 -!- ZabaQ [n=johnc@host81-156-64-2.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:23:48 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:23:49 -!- jao [n=jao@52.Red-83-43-32.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:26:25 <_3b> for now i'm trying to stay with the available avm2/flash primitives as much as possible, just a question of figuring out what is there and if it does what i need or not :) 09:27:15 How is that an argument against SACLA? 09:28:07 <_3b> it isn't particularly, just that i have candidates for implementing hash tables and symbols already 09:29:34 Ah, of course that makes sense. OTOH, SACLA may provide you enough to get enough of a CL to run for example Slime with your implementation 09:31:10 <_3b> don't expect it to be slime-worthy any time soon, even with sacla :) 09:31:13 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954F679.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:32:10 <_3b> though i guess SACLA could speed up the conditions stuff once i get the low level parts done 09:33:42 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:34:02 *_3b* wonders what primitives are needed for sacla's clos 09:39:35 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:41:12 asksol [n=ask@183.247.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 09:42:11 timchen1` [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 09:42:30 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:46:15 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:53:59 -!- ejs [n=eugen@78-23-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:58:32 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@217.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:02:04 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:05:58 how to make absolute file names such as ~/Desktop/x.csv work? 10:06:33 <_3b> don't use ~ 10:06:56 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:08:23 <_3b> clhs user-homedir-pathname 10:08:23 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_user_h.htm 10:08:31 *Xach* uses tilde.lisp for that 10:08:38 djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 10:08:55 http://xach.livejournal.com/179622.html -- but only for sbcl 10:09:30 bavardage [n=bavardag@87.113.129.127] has joined #lisp 10:09:42 does anyone know what license this book is under? http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ 10:11:06 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17D09E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:12:00 i do not; but what are you trying to do with it? 10:12:03 <_3b> bavardage: none that allows more than normal website reading as far as i know 10:12:12 hmm 10:12:17 lame :P 10:12:22 I wanted to make it into an epub 10:12:33 <_3b> why not just buy the official print? 10:12:40 diveintopython which is also apress is under Gnu Documentation 10:12:46 _3b: because I want it in electronic form 10:12:55 bavardage: download the pdf from apress.com. 10:12:56 like for an ebook reader 10:13:07 <_3b> ah 10:13:08 ooh kk 10:13:15 <_3b> is that back up yet? 10:13:19 haha apress died 10:13:25 I did not know it was down. 10:13:30 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:13:35 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-36-70.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:13:39 <_3b> i mean the pdf, dunno what's up with the site 10:13:48 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:14:01 Same with that -- was it unavailable? 10:14:14 <_3b> yeah, has been last few times i've looked i think 10:14:36 The link's a bit obscure, but it's always been there when I've looked. 10:15:01 <_3b> i remember finding a place that claimed to be the place to get it, but it wasn't available 10:16:30 bavardage: You can mirror the HTML version for your offline use, and there's also a PDF edition floating around. 10:16:39 bavardage: It was once available for download. 10:17:24 _3b: thanks 10:18:07 What is this? www.apress.com/resource/bookfile/2077 10:20:19 <_3b> splittist: looks like 'Connection refused' from here :p 10:20:37 lol 10:21:35 pjb: are you here? 10:24:22 chris2 [n=chris@p5B168E3F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:27:04 matimago: you? 10:28:01 antoszka: oh kk thanks 10:28:19 I wonder whether packaging the html up inside an epub counts as mirroring :P 10:28:23 *bavardage* would think not 10:30:00 good morning #lisp 10:34:13 morning 10:34:19 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:35:49 Blkt [n=Blkt@net-93-146-128-210.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 10:39:35 bavardage: What's an epub? Some ebook format for some reader? 10:40:02 it's supposedly to become the 'standard' ebook format 10:40:05 (for reflowable) 10:40:16 it's basically xhtml files in a zip 10:40:20 Uhm. Never heard about it, though. 10:40:36 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epub 10:40:59 Yep, thx. 10:41:11 yeah that wiki page doesn't tell very much 10:41:35 Not that I'm love either with ZIP or XML :( 10:41:43 s.love.in love. 10:41:48 I'd be happy to pay for an epub of practical common lisp, but can't find anywhere 10:42:54 I suppose (but only suppose) that if you mirror the book and package it into a zipfile for reading you're within fair use. 10:44:52 yeah 10:44:58 it's annoying that there isn't a license anywhere 10:45:13 but then I guess most websites don't have a license 10:45:27 Most works are protected by copyright laws. 10:45:44 and does that stop format shifting? 10:45:51 and how can you tell whether they are protected 10:46:16 I think any creation is implicitly protected. 10:46:16 i.e. say I saved the front page of google to disk and converted it to a pdf, would that be breaking laws? 10:46:30 <_3b> copyright is automatic 10:46:35 Yeah. 10:46:41 <_3b> whether that is legal or not is up to the courts :/ 10:46:41 I think it's best to assume that Peter does not want people other than himself or apress to distribute copies of the book. 10:46:42 right, but what restrictions does that create? 10:46:49 But format shifting is not illegal. 10:46:55 depends on the country 10:46:57 Definitely not that one :) 10:47:00 think it may be here 10:47:15 in the US it would probably come under 'fair use' 10:47:19 the UK doesn't have 'fair use' 10:47:45 does the author ever come in here :P? 10:48:09 yes 10:48:11 bavardage: A lot. 10:48:16 oh kk 10:48:34 maybe I'll have to lurk and ask him 10:49:14 Is gigamonkey the guy? Or is it a nicked nick :)? 10:49:27 antoszka: gigamonkey is peter seibel. 10:49:31 Yep. 10:49:43 bavardage: So you may ask him when he's around. 10:49:47 yop 10:49:54 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 10:50:17 Good morning! 10:50:35 g'day 10:53:29 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-65.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:01:30 -!- Elench is now known as Elench-Fishing 11:05:41 -!- wubbster [n=wubb@doc-24-206-235-153.kw.tx.cebridge.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:06:32 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:13:20 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:14:43 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 11:22:26 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:25 -!- asksol [n=ask@183.247.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:25:51 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 11:36:45 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:38:13 danlei [n=user@pD954F679.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:16 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 11:46:17 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 11:46:43 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-12-30.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:47:50 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C384.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:49:20 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Success] 11:51:45 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-131.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:53:52 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-19-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 11:54:23 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:54:35 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 11:57:28 -!- lukego_ [n=lukegorr@84.75.21.37] has quit [] 11:58:11 macdice_ [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:58:56 -!- macdice_ [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 11:59:26 -!- macdice [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:00:27 macdice [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:00:40 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 12:01:27 -!- bavardage [n=bavardag@87.113.129.127] has quit ["leaving"] 12:02:27 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:10:48 asksol [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 12:14:45 Has anyone ever ported the ~R directive of FORMAT to languages other than English? 12:16:41 (And other English-language specific bits, like ordinals.) 12:18:52 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:19:44 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-2036.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 12:29:01 Rajin_ [n=Rajin@d081133.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 12:33:48 I've ported it to UK english 12:35:05 demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-090-033.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:35:26 I'm wondering if it would be possible to abstract it in a useful way. 12:35:58 -!- fvw is now known as gehaowu_ 12:36:08 -!- gehaowu_ is now known as fvw 12:36:20 Problematic especially with the ordinals (gender gets in the way) in case of the Polish language. 12:36:54 KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-6-59.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:40:17 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:40:52 Ikarus_ [n=Rajin@d081133.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 12:41:58 -!- Rajin_ [n=Rajin@d081133.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:41:59 -!- Ikarus_ [n=Rajin@d081133.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:50:51 -!- awfaw is now known as Pegazus 12:52:13 -!- KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-11-56.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:58:49 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:01:28 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:02:57 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:46 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:10:11 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:11:29 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 13:12:03 eros289 [i=aaa@chello087206097138.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 13:13:34 [Head|Rest] [n=nyao@217.149.190.86] has joined #lisp 13:15:15 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@125.93.105.39] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:15:27 fvw [n=sdfpme@125.93.105.39] has joined #lisp 13:16:07 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 13:18:20 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-22.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:25:06 attila_lendvai [n=ati@89.132.189.132] has joined #lisp 13:29:45 elderK [n=zk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 13:36:36 tic_ [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:36:58 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:37:32 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:41:56 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 13:43:41 hello attila_lendvai 13:45:41 during export-model, I get "The type PERSISTENT-OBJECT-D is not a valid persistent association end type". Any hint on what to look for? 13:46:20 kami-: hi. it doesn't ring any bells for me, sorry 13:46:59 thanks, though. How far is the ajax refactoring? 13:48:51 kami-: running examples are coming along in the test suite and it's almost ready to forward port our codebase to it. good news is that ajax seems to be fully functional in this version, we debug that on the way, too 13:49:36 -!- cp2 [n=will@unaffiliated/cp2] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 13:49:43 cp2 [n=will@unaffiliated/cp2] has joined #lisp 13:49:54 attila_lendvai: I noticed that there are no commits to the repos which I checked out. Have you forked all projects, or only wui + dwim? 13:55:01 artagnon [n=artagnon@unaffiliated/artagnon] has joined #lisp 13:55:36 Before diving into Clojure, I'd like an to know what the Common Lisp people think of it. Is there an article I can read up? 13:56:04 why do you want to know what CL people think of it? 13:56:32 because I know Common Lisp myself. 13:56:41 I think I can relate to it. 13:58:05 kami-: iirc the only -unstable forks we have at the moment is wui and dwim 13:58:50 there is no agreement among CL people on Clojure 13:59:05 attila_lendvai: thanks. I asked because I assumed a problem with perec, because of "PERSISTENT-OBJECT-D" 13:59:09 artagnon: to me Clojure looks like reducing my options. Instead of having a lot of different implementations with different strong points running on different platforms, Clojure only runs on the JVM. 13:59:50 kami-: if you can identify the problem, then please try to extract a test case for it, and even better send a darcs patch that adds it to the unit tests... :) 13:59:54 stassats: I don't mind individual opinions like pjb's up here^^ 14:00:21 pjb: Right. Can Clojure not be ported to run on anything else in future? 14:00:39 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-117-37.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:01:01 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 14:05:21 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:06:26 minion: memo for ehu`: The SYNCHRONIZED-ON stuff looks good and it alleviates the need for Gates. I think my implementation of Gates can be dropped. 14:06:26 Remembered. I'll tell ehu` when he/she/it next speaks. 14:06:47 attila_lendvai: I have difficulties debugging such things, as I don't see any of my own entities in the call trace. So, I don't know where to start. 14:11:00 kami-: look around at your associations, try to comment them out one by one. if you get which one is causing it, then look for oddities, most probably with the target type of one of the association ends 14:11:18 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-117-37.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 14:11:54 anyone here use log5? is it worth implementing isntead of the occasional print? 14:12:10 attila_lendvai: isn't there a way of making the error message more verbose. Or is the information which is needed not available at that time? 14:16:22 kami-: try pulling perec and see if the error is more useful 14:16:38 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-131.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:16:40 Plisk [n=Plisk@80.249.93.215] has joined #lisp 14:17:41 sepult [n=user@87.78.102.51] has joined #lisp 14:17:51 pjb: I find clisp's backtrace pretty much unreadable, but it seems it does not give any way to access a frames except for getting a string representation of it. 14:18:17 Creating a company to develop, maintain and support well-known open-source projects - http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-779681.html 14:19:04 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:29 I work for many open source projects in my free time. I expect a paycheck next month. Hope I can count on you, kthnxbuy 14:21:23 -!- Demosthenex [n=demo@173.86.192.171] has quit ["leaving"] 14:22:13 tcr: we have to talk about this in more details 14:22:22 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:22:36 tcr: what projects ? where i can see your contributions/patches ? 14:24:21 counter question: where do you get money? 14:24:21 One project is an IRC bot which assists people in grokking irony. 14:25:40 hum, there's plenty of 'Donate' buttons around, no? 14:25:55 stassats: 14:25:56 Please, allow me to handle these questions. You will be generously be paid for your work on open source projects you like and love. All the rest is my own business. 14:26:51 i'd like some guarantees, that sounds like a scam 14:26:55 lnostdal: this is my own money and you have nothing do with them. so just speak about projects you are working on 14:27:13 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-65.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:27:14 stassats: i don't care about how this sounds to you 14:28:07 You might consider starting a non-profit organization so that it sounds less obviously scammy or insane. 14:28:18 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-117-37.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:28:23 Zhivago: thank you for advice 14:33:04 Is this the latest advance on the 419 scheme? 14:33:30 <[df]_> http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-779681.html#5863565 14:33:47 <[df]_> http://www.reddit.com/r/opensource/comments/8zvne/creating_a_company_to_develop_maintain_and/#c0ayooy 14:33:50 <[df]_> hmm... 14:34:37 -!- demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-090-033.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 14:34:51 Okay, that's clearly an insane scam :) 14:35:02 *rsynnott* wonders is he visiting every freenode channel in turn 14:35:59 (maybe it is a conspiracy by the evil dictator of Belarus) 14:36:10 malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:37:04 rsynnott: that sounds plausible 14:38:16 what, the visiting every free node or the stalinist dictator conspiracy theory 14:38:23 (he's in Minsk, apparently) 14:38:46 rsynnott: conspiracy theory 14:40:36 the dictator of Belarus is a bit bond-villainish, so a plot to control all the world's open source software sounds reasonable :) 14:40:41 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:41:00 many countries are announcing their transition to open source, maybe Belarus decided too... but in a different way 14:41:02 First the open source, next the porn! 14:42:01 -!- asksol [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit ["Be back later"] 14:42:12 (he fits into the general category of wacky dictators who give themselves medals) 14:42:40 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:45:18 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:47:43 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-36-70.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:47:49 Good afternoon. 14:47:53 you could check the changelogs for sbcl and perhaps slime, Plisk .. git://sbcl.boinkor.net/sbcl.git 14:47:59 tcr: (apropos "FRAME" "SYSTEM") 14:48:01 -!- artagnon [n=artagnon@unaffiliated/artagnon] has left #lisp 14:48:34 hi beach 14:49:29 tcr: but first read the source to see how to use them. 14:49:32 i don't think people like the idea of trusting something like this up-front, so looking back and paying for what's been done already .. 14:50:48 pjb: Oh I did that, and that's where I drew my comment from 14:51:41 lnostdal: that is CLEARLY some sort of wacky scam 14:52:38 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:52:38 -!- l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has quit [zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:52:38 -!- a-s`` [n=user@92.81.147.107] has quit [zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:52:38 -!- rapacity [n=prwg@li30-188.members.linode.com] has quit [zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:52:38 -!- Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:52:38 -!- gh7d395pi69wd [n=asdf@unaffiliated/gh7d395pi69wd] has quit [zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:52:38 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:52:38 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:52:38 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:52:38 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has quit [zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:52:38 -!- cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:52:38 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:52:47 tcr: that'd be a nice contribution. 14:52:53 In slime-lisp-implementations, I have set :env "SBCL_HOME=/Users/Shared/FE5110/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/etc/sbcl/lib/sbcl" 14:53:24 he is describing himself as a spiritual healer who can help to solve all your problems and achieve all your goals... 14:53:35 but when I start that implementation, it is still "/usr/local/opensource/sbcl/lib/sbcl" 14:53:56 pjb: I agree, when can I expect you to implement it? :-) 14:54:14 ENOTIME 14:54:30 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 14:54:30 l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 14:54:30 a-s`` [n=user@92.81.147.107] has joined #lisp 14:54:30 rapacity [n=prwg@li30-188.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 14:54:30 Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:30 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:54:30 gh7d395pi69wd [n=asdf@unaffiliated/gh7d395pi69wd] has joined #lisp 14:54:30 ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:30 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 14:54:30 cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 14:54:30 Xof [n=crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:54:30 fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has joined #lisp 14:54:43 (invoke-restart 'do-not-sleep) 14:56:02 :-) 14:56:14 resolved 14:56:50 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 14:57:19 rsynnott, yeah, i don't think anyone is going to drop what they are doing based on a "promise" like this 14:58:20 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B168E3F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:59:17 I would hope that no-one would accept any cheques, either 14:59:47 chris2 [n=chris@p5B168E3F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:00:03 fusss [i=73801603@gateway/web/freenode/x-2f5110ea97ab5849] has joined #lisp 15:00:08 greetings 15:00:17 hello earthling 15:00:24 heh 15:00:26 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-12-30.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:00:29 :) 15:00:43 so I checked postmodern, maan, clsql is still where it's at 15:00:49 *sigh* 15:01:17 fusss: really? 15:01:17 -!- sepult [n=user@87.78.102.51] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:01:17 6 database backends are better than one 15:01:18 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@76.122.37.30] has quit [] 15:01:27 what did you not like about postmodern? 15:01:41 ah, yep, if you need multiple db support clsql is probably better 15:02:06 rsynnott: the fact that CLSQL is awesomely documented and does the right thing, consistently, is a big win 15:02:36 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-102-51.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:02:42 *rsynnott* prefers postmodern, when dealing with postgres :) 15:02:52 -!- elderK [n=zk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:03:04 you can't get any better than "create clos instance" for record creation and update. wanna read? a simple SELECT call returns the rows as clos objects for your filtering and mapping pleasure. 15:03:25 fusss: interesting, i've always thought that clsql is quite buggy and mixes up the database/connection/transaction concepts pretty badly... 15:04:23 attila_lendvai: you probably know too much about databases to notice that. I just know CLOS, and as far as i am concerned, i only speak objects and slots with clsql. 15:04:33 hmm, I'm not keen on that pseudo-ORM behaviour 15:04:47 it IS an ORM :-) 15:04:50 if I want an ORM I use a proper one, if I don't, I don't use one at all 15:05:08 *attila_lendvai* is with rsynnott in this, too 15:05:13 you also get START-SQL-RECORDING for your debugging and journaling pleasure 15:05:36 cl-rdbms has that too, and it even supports logging of bound values 15:05:49 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-102-51.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:05:50 all the SQL that goes down the line can also be echoed to the stream of your choice, in my case a CAPI pane i have floating around. 15:06:06 This is an interesting discussion... Today I was just trying to figure out how to choose between the lisp-only object-cache model or the external, heavily tested, enterprise ready database model. 15:06:12 fusss: that doesn't strike me as at all useful, actually 15:06:42 (except possibly for debugging, but all libraries I know of on just about any platform will do it for that) 15:07:06 meingbg: what's your application? 15:07:45 meingbg: elephant is hard to get working, rucksack is amnesiac, and AllegroCache doesn't run on sbcl or lw. Postmodern, cl-perec and CLSQL are half way in betweeen. IMO, clsql is closer to CLOS than SQL. 15:08:30 fusss: elephant? It's fine to get working with the postgres backend 15:08:41 annoying to compile on some platforms with bdb, granted :) 15:09:00 I'd be interested, too, in a consideration between the pros and cons of object-mapping and relational databases. Is it described somewhere? 15:09:11 rsynnott: I just wanted BDB to log something like 2000 webserver hits per second 15:09:31 hmm 15:09:45 rsynnott: It's an application for use in business administration. It's the kind of thing that makes you think of the relational database model. 15:09:57 fusss: that's possibly not a good fit for elephant 15:10:05 tcr: academically? theories are abound. practically? RDBMS performance is platform dependent voodoo. 15:10:05 fusss: actually, it's not a very good fit for databases 15:10:45 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-102-51.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:10:45 fusss: Why? 15:11:14 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-102-51.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:11:19 rsynnott: among other things. but for that particular problem, i am taking hunchentoot's request objects in their binary form and storing them in a vector until they reach a certain volume, than flipping them somewhere else for convenient serialization in another thread. 15:11:22 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 15:11:43 you're doing that in a production environment, for all requests? 15:11:47 do you really NEED to? 15:11:57 rsynnott: It's really nothing that would "require" lisp, although it would be pretty interesting to test sbcl commercially. 15:12:24 asksol [n=ask@084202072104.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 15:12:52 claar [n=claar@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:13:02 rsynnott: i am not sure if you're talking to me or meingbg, but in my case yes, but not exactly "production". I have the traffic but it's cheap and not too important atm. 15:13:02 Hello 15:13:21 fusss: ah 15:14:09 claar: draw (hello claar (how do you do ?)) 15:14:10 http://claar.informatimago.com:8006/1 15:14:39 Note that claar has no persistent memory. The urls are valid until it restarts... 15:14:44 lnostdal: could you send a http like to that ? that is your project ? 15:14:48 link* 15:15:01 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-102-51.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:15:11 pjb: not resolving 15:15:13 fwiw though, i have a multi-stage thing where some incoming traffic is treated with higher priority than others. in serving advertising, web masters who're logged into our site are shown an ajax display of their current traffic. while those who don't have hunchentoot session are not high priority and their data is updated when they login. 15:15:37 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-102-51.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:15:57 fusss: What exactly do you mean, that rucksack is amnesiac? That it doesn't cache? 15:15:58 ah 15:16:08 fusss_ [i=73801603@gateway/web/freenode/x-cfac0c3cbdcd8598] has joined #lisp 15:16:16 stupid web chat client 15:16:18 so you're giving them realtime advertising data? 15:16:25 stassats: I created the CNAME entry 12 hours ago. Perhaps it needs more time to diffuse? 15:16:28 even adsense doesn't attempt that ;) 15:16:29 Plisk, http://www.sbcl.org/ (sbcl is the common lisp compiler/implementation used by the majority here) .. and, no, it's not my project 15:16:38 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-85-184.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:16:45 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-102-51.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:16:45 pjb: that reminds me of the pointer drawing program in Gentle Intro 15:16:48 stassats: the ns is ns43.domaincontrol.com 15:17:18 rsynnott: business reasons. (incf transparency) 15:18:14 -!- fusss [i=73801603@gateway/web/freenode/x-2f5110ea97ab5849] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 15:18:22 rsynnott: AdSense runs on a farm. My toy runs in two sbcl images on the same box with a unix domain socket between them. 15:19:04 not resolving here either, pjb "ping: unknown host claar.informatimago.com" 15:19:14 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 15:19:14 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-252-69.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:20 That's strange... 15:19:32 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-102-51.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:19:37 fusss: ultimately you probably won't be able to scale it, though 15:19:44 *stassats* started his local bind, now it's resolving 15:20:06 Ok. 15:20:10 lnostdal: i see. what is slime you mentioned above ? 15:20:38 pjb: looks nice 15:20:41 rsynnott: that I know, but i am trying to sell it to a few smallish newspapers and magazines for now. 15:20:47 for use in-house. 15:21:06 stassats: it's simplistic. Doesn't handle references #=/##. 15:21:25 ah 15:21:40 Plisk, slime is the programming environment used by most lispers (regardless of common lisp implementation); http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/ 15:21:42 I can see that the idea of auto-updating ad stats would be very popular 15:21:44 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Client Quit] 15:21:45 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-102-51.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:21:51 I know my boss would love it 15:22:02 not actually useful as such, possibly, but yes, people would like it 15:22:09 lnostdal: looking, thank you 15:22:45 I like powerful (=flexible) things. I've decided I like pgsql for the feeling of being in full control of what will and will not happen. Lisp is probably one of the most powerful languages out there although not the easiest to learn, so I've decided I'll stick to it a few years before I decide what language to use after that. Now when faced with a commercial project that would conform perfectly to the relational data model, I don't know 15:22:45 wheather to do it in lisp, or in pgsql... I mean, a lot of the things you could do either in the application, or in the database... 15:22:49 btw, what do people use for control transfer in web apps, specially for input validation and re-prompting the user on bad input? I can talk a bit about what I have but it might be a kludge. 15:22:52 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:05 fusss: I have a form CLOS class from which actual forms inherit which handles a lot of it 15:24:20 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 15:24:21 meingbg: you could embed ecl in pgsql and use CL to write stored procedures... 15:24:27 (though forms are an awkward thing to abstrakct; it may or may not even be worth the effort) 15:24:33 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:06 meingbg: programming is programming. hardest part is finding people who want a problem solved. the great majority of the time they know they want something done and they "know" how. If programmers where barbers, people would come to us with bad hair and a few pairs of their own paper and eye-brow scissors. 15:25:07 lnostdal: oh, thats quite a big that git repo.. could you please parse everything about your involvement in any project you participate in, your role there and send me all of this to rotmer@gmail.com ? 15:25:08 pjb: that's one possibility. 15:25:20 lnostdal: roles* 15:26:18 brb 15:27:35 pjb: that is wonderfully insane :) 15:28:15 How does clsql determine the clos class of the records returned by queries? 15:28:35 By table name, I'd guess. 15:29:06 so what if I have numerous queries returning the same type? 15:30:22 They should create numerous CLOS instances of the same class, I'd guess. 15:30:47 pjb: right on both counts 15:31:15 meingbg: (select 'user) ==> ((#) (#) ...) 15:31:39 -!- asksol [n=ask@084202072104.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 15:31:47 (select 'user :where (== :id 2)) ==> ((#)) 15:31:54 rsynnott: people have done worse, and the pl connectivity in postgres is pretty sane 15:32:34 and here is how you create a new user (make-instance 'user :id (next-sequence 'user-id)) :-) but usually you make that id slot initialization an initform and never touch it again. 15:33:26 fusss: I guess I'm lucky enough to have someone who defined merely what they want, never heard a word about platform choice or the like. Feels great, actually. 15:33:34 another way to "fetch" a row is (update-instance-from-row (make-instance 'user :id 2)) :-) 15:33:47 so I am more surprised that there is no ecl language support in postgres now (: 15:34:06 meingbg: well, if you do it in cl, I suppose you have a client for life 15:34:37 rsynnott: That's was exactly my thought, actually :P 15:35:02 r/That's/That/ 15:35:18 if push comes to shove, you can always do this in clsql (query "select * from user where id=2") and you would get your row as a list, not clos instance. it has both functional and OO data definition AND manipulation languages. you can use multiple databases at the same time as well, including in-memory sqlite3 databases which I use for far logging. 15:35:35 of course, you will also never be able to get rid of them 15:35:44 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:35:49 Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A644CC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:02 hello 15:36:15 hey Ragnaroek 15:36:21 srsly, brb 15:36:52 fusss: Maybe I should take a look at clsql. In the choice of data backend, I've been thrown back and forth for a long time now. 15:36:59 Adlai [n=user@bzq-84-109-63-215.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:38 fusss: If you've used clsql for a while, could you point out some downsides? 15:37:49 i am actually grabbing a LW license next week just because of CLSQL 15:38:16 meingbg: one nasty bug has been biting me but i coded around it 15:38:26 square syntax doesn't work 15:38:32 meingbg: cl-perec may also be worth a look, if you can stand being tied to postgres 15:38:43 ivans [n=ivans@iskon65-197.duo.carnet.hr] has joined #lisp 15:38:48 (though I think in principle it can handle other dbs) 15:38:50 fusss: what connection is between clsql and LW? 15:39:03 and you may or may not also like elephant 15:39:08 the thing is supposed to be lethal, stuff like CL-USE> [user.id] is supposed to return all the user table sorted by ID and such. not working. 15:39:18 fusss: what problem did you have with the square rackets syntax? 15:39:36 stassats: UncommonSQL, where CLSQL got its API, though clsql extends it in many places, is LW's 15:39:37 fusss: What's square syntax? 15:39:47 I know that on sbcl cit can get confused if you don't disable it at the end of each file where it's used 15:39:55 fusss: uncommon? 15:39:57 Ragnaroek pasted "quote" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83413 15:40:13 what do you think? 15:40:22 *rsynnott* vaguely regrets not getting a lw license while they had the special offer 15:40:30 capi is quite nice 15:40:36 meingbg: (select [user] :where [= id 2]) doesn't work, which the manual claims should work. Instead, I use the internal representation syntax (select 'user :where (sql-== 'id 2)) 15:41:03 stassats: yes, UncommonSQL, it's an actual LispWorks product 15:41:10 Ragnaroek: what's specified is T. 15:41:12 fusss: does the enable-sql-syntax or whatever command not work? 15:41:22 fusss: i thought Common SQL was LispWorks product 15:41:30 fusss: That's a bit odd. It's working just fine for me. 15:41:33 rsynnott: not in my build it doesn't, not enable-syntax-locally 15:41:33 *rsynnott* has an old app using it quite happily, though it's quite an old version of clsql 15:42:10 fusss: ok, doesn't seem too bad if it's that simple to code around 15:42:33 it worked the first day I installed, but i jinxed it i guess. never did work on deployment box. that's fine, i am used to using prefix intermediate representations for "syntax" ;-) 15:42:42 fusss: rsynnott: I plan on using papyrus for reporting, in which case I should probably stay away from rucksack/allegrocache etc. 15:43:05 T is specified? 15:45:10 stassats: you're absolutely right. my yobo mind never seems to remember the names of commercial products. I couldn't name ONE commercial webserver in a meeting last week. not one. 15:45:23 I don't seem to find it, any hint where pjb 15:45:26 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-27-214.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:46:14 Ragnaroek: calls to f always return the self-same object 15:46:15 fusss: besides ISS, are there commercial webservers these days? 15:46:23 *rsynnott* can't really think of one 15:46:34 piso: f doesn't copy the cons each time 15:47:21 hence (eq (f) (f)) => T 15:47:24 hmm, the disparity between euro and dollar prices for lispworks has actually reduced a lot 15:47:39 there's only a 20% premium for living in europe now :) 15:48:26 commercial as in closed source? 15:48:47 Can clsql and/or cl-perec call procedures/functions in the database with parameters? 15:49:09 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:49:36 -!- ivans [n=ivans@iskon65-197.duo.carnet.hr] has left #lisp 15:50:19 hmm, postmodern certainly can 15:50:43 *rsynnott* knows this from modifying elephant; I avoid stored procedures myself so don't know for cl-sql 15:53:24 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@89.132.189.132] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:54:07 shouldn't then return the same example but with backquote also return always T? 15:54:08 rsynnott: ok, thanks. 15:55:28 meingbg: i don't know if clsql does. i always kept my code and data seperate when persisting. 15:55:38 clhs ` 15:55:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm 15:55:54 Ragnaroek: yes 15:56:49 (defun f () `(a . b)) (eq (f) (f)) => T 15:56:58 the above link doesn't say that `(...) is equivalent to '(...) 15:57:09 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@125.93.105.39] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:57:23 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:59:02 backquote is the same as quote if there are no substitutions 16:00:00 for example, the above code snippet yields NIL in ACL 16:00:10 fusss: If you've kept them separate, have you then had all the sql queries in your code as well, instead of having views? 16:00:34 in CLISP too 16:00:39 in SBCL it's T 16:01:04 backquoted values only have to be equal 16:01:06 not eq 16:02:06 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:02:20 hmmm 16:02:33 so i just installed paredit, and did something like: (foo "bar"), but then i decided i want: (baz (foo "bar") fubar). unfortunately, paredit opens a new pair of parens everytime i use '(', but i can't really move the new ')', so i have to rewrite the whole line from scratch, because i can't get: foo "bar" into the new brackets 16:02:45 meingbg: the only tweaks I do is on query caching. some tables can be queried lazily, others need constant updates. other than that, it's all MAP, MAPCAR and DO. 16:03:01 i already consulted some paredit cheat sheet, but nothing really helped or showed me how things like that are done while using paredit 16:03:16 athos: M-( 16:04:16 djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:22 athos: Let `|' denote the point. Then: |(foo "bar") M-( (|(foo "bar")) foo SPC C-M-f SPC fubar (foo (foo "bar") fubar|) 16:04:23 "The constructed copy of the template might or might not share list structure with the template itself." from clhs ` 16:04:45 athos: C-h m 16:04:48 Sorry, some of those `foo's should have been `baz's. 16:04:50 I hardly believe that quote value returned by functions have to be eq 16:05:04 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-173-58-94-2.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:12 meingbg: for example, off the top of my head; (let ((site-table (make-hash-table :test #'string-equal))) (defun get-site (url) (or (gethash url site-table) (let ((site (caar (select 'site :where (== 'url url))))) (when site (setf (gethash url site-table) site)) site)) 16:05:18 clhs quote 16:05:18 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_quote.htm 16:05:31 Ragnaroek: quote returns THE argument. Not A COPY OF the argument. 16:06:02 i memoize most heavily looked up stuff if they're not updated too frequently. site urls never change, than they're a good candidate for caching. 16:06:27 by the way 16:06:30 Riastradh: thanks :) 16:06:42 disassembling clisp's version, it calls (cons 'a 'b) each time f is called 16:06:44 what on earth is the syntax for specializing (setf slot-accessor)? 16:07:04 in the backquote case 16:07:05 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:13 (defmethod (setf user-id) ((user user) value) ..) then what? 16:07:14 athos, if you then decide that you want to get rid of the `baz' and `fubar', you can raise the S-expression `(foo "bar")' up in the tree with `M-r': (baz |(foo "bar") fubar) M-r |(foo "bar") 16:07:21 (defmethod (setf slot-accessor) (newvalue (self subclass)) ...) 16:07:24 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 16:07:41 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:08:02 for the setter. 16:08:11 for the getter it'd be (defmethod slot-accessor ((self subclass)) ...) 16:08:20 pjb: do i have to call next method? I am trying to replace the primary method. well, sometimes it doesn't even exist, I only ask for :reader in the defclass slot options so I should be fine right? 16:08:41 no, I am fine with no getters; slot-value works for me so far. 16:08:44 fusss: no, you can set (slot-value self 'slot) directluy. 16:09:02 Riastradh: i see, thank you! 16:09:20 -!- hypno [n=hypno@195.43.248.100] has quit ["leaving"] 16:09:38 I like the symetry in (setf (slot-accessor slot) value) though. thanks. for some reason i kept thinking new-value came second. cheers! 16:09:53 athos, if, on the other hand, you wanted just to splice the elements of the list, `baz', `(foo "bar")', and `fubar', into the enclosing list, then you can use `M-s': (frobble (baz |(foo "bar") fubar) thorpe) M-s (frobble baz (foo "bar") fubar thorpe) 16:10:13 fusss: it has to come first, because you could have a variable number of additionnal arguments. 16:10:40 (setf (ref sparse-array i j k) newval) 16:10:43 athos, passing a `C-u' prefix argument to `M-s' will have the additional effect of deleting `baz'. This is useful, for instance, if you want to delete a LET and all its bindings, but move its body into the enclosing form: (progn (let ((useless-variable 'fnord)) |(a) (b) (c)) (d)) C-u M-s (progn |(a) (b) (c) (d)) 16:10:45 or none at all 16:10:55 pjb: ahhhhh 16:11:30 like (setf (foo) newval) 16:11:35 fusss: That seems simple enough. (defun* get-site (url) (:memoize t) (caar (select 'site :where (== 'url url)))) 16:12:42 meingbg: I only play with two-star identifiers; that's, one on each shoulder ;-) 16:12:57 ... returns THE object, but what's THE object if it's a literal 16:13:01 fusss: I see :) 16:13:02 no defclass* for me, and let* is a bad DO 16:13:13 Ragnaroek: it is it, the literal. 16:13:26 That's why you should not modify it, too. 16:13:44 fusss: I agree slot-value does the job most of the time, although I've sometimes used my own type of accessor: (slotname object) to get, (slotname object newvalue) to set and return. 16:14:01 shouldn't then (eq '(a . b) '(a . b)) = T 16:14:11 Ragnaroek: it's clear that clisp is doing a sub-optimal thing here, since there's no reason to evaluate (cons 'a 'b) each time the function is called 16:14:12 No, because here there are two different literals. 16:14:28 Ragnaroek: however, compilers are allowed to collapse them, so it could be T. 16:14:38 meingbg: one of the last things i do in a project is to go over it one more time and remove superflous defsetfs :-P 16:14:39 Ragnaroek: (eq '#1=(a . b) '#1#) --> T 16:14:51 because here there's only one literal, referenced twice. 16:14:53 alright, good night folks. wine caught up with me :-D 16:15:00 clearly suboptimal, but I'm not sure it's against the standard 16:15:17 fusss: heh;) 16:16:02 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=nyao@217.149.190.86] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:16:13 piso: it's not 16:16:26 yeah 16:16:52 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-150-108.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:17:55 -!- fusss [i=73801603@gateway/web/freenode/x-cfac0c3cbdcd8598] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 16:18:01 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:06 3.2.4.4 "If two literal objects appearing in the source code for a single file processed with the file compiler are the identical, the corresponding objects in the compiled code must also be the identical." 16:18:25 in the case of quote, there's only one literal object 16:18:38 in the case of backquote, there's the expansion of a macro 16:22:25 serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-153-106.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:23:44 Does that mean that (eq 10 10) must be T for code in a compiled file? 16:24:25 i think it's talking about (eq #1=10 #1#) 16:26:53 asksol [n=ask@247.243.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:27:08 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.51.25] has quit [Success] 16:27:24 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C384.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:28:10 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483C384.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:47 identical adj. the same under eq. 16:29:15 (eq 10 10) doesn't ever need to return T 16:30:25 "An implementation is permitted to make ``copies'' of characters and numbers at any time. The effect is that Common Lisp makes no guarantee that eq is true even when both its arguments are ``the same thing'' if that thing is a character or number. " 16:30:33 -!- Blkt [n=Blkt@net-93-146-128-210.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit ["(cons 'java 'sucks)"] 16:30:44 clhs eq 16:30:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq.htm 16:31:14 [Head|Rest] [n=nyao@217.149.190.86] has joined #lisp 16:31:25 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:31:30 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-15-99.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:20 What is "setf" named after? "set form"? 16:32:28 field. 16:32:34 Ah, ok. 16:32:55 -!- Plisk [n=Plisk@80.249.93.215] has quit ["  ,   ."] 16:33:01 I think - I've also heard it's like GNU: SETF sets SETF:able places. :-) 16:34:10 but it's not like GNU 16:35:11 the letters aren't recursive, but the meaning is (or could be, like I said, not sure) 16:35:26 setf is not unix, ok 16:35:58 what's the use of this <#'> before lambda function and why is it optional? 16:36:23 Bigshot_: in CL, lambda is a macro, so that if it is evaluated, it wraps the lambda form with a (function ...) aka #' 16:36:24 it's to what the macro LAMBDA expands 16:36:27 stassats, setf sets setfable places. ("what is a setfable place? something you can setf...") 16:36:53 however, if a (lambda ...) form is found in a place where a function is expected, it doesn't get macroexpanded -- it's treated as a lambda form usually is 16:37:13 tic_: to be precise, a setfable place is a place that has a setf expansion :D 16:37:17 (or a setf function) 16:37:37 (or a setf method) 16:37:53 stassats: true. 16:37:54 hehe 16:38:24 btw, stassats, writing the setf-expansion of alref was possibly the most mind-fuckingly confusing thing I've done in my life. 16:38:28 which have setf expansion too, though 16:38:39 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-6-59.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:38:44 (lambda ...) get only not expanded in (function ...) - because it's special 16:39:09 (lambda ...) is not expanded when you don't evaluate it 16:39:57 (apply (lambda ...)) <- Macro lambda expanded 16:40:02 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:40:15 (function (lambda ...)) <- not expanded 16:40:47 (quote (lambda ())) <- not expanded 16:41:06 also here: 16:41:12 apply is a function, it evaluates its first argument 16:41:19 ((lambda ...) ...) not expanded 16:41:24 and the rest arguments too 16:42:34 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:43:19 oh year, forgot about closed-applications :) 16:43:36 closed-applications? 16:50:57 minion, tell me about format-control 16:50:58 Adlai: direct your attention towards format-control: The syntax of format control strings is explained in detail at this page in the hyperspec: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm 16:51:11 *Adlai* is glad that he taught minion that phrase :D 16:57:23 Bigshot_ pasted "explain" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83415 16:58:03 by magic 16:58:31 hehe 16:59:08 how does (rev 'cons) become a function for bu? 16:59:22 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:59:29 two functions become one function? 16:59:31 because the return value of (rev 'cons) is a function-object 16:59:46 substitution evaluation model can help here 17:00:11 Bigshot_: (type-of (rev 'cons)) 17:00:44 it says compiled function 17:01:02 Well there you go. 17:01:05 maybe it's also clearer if you replacs #'... by (function ...) 17:04:02 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit ["bye"] 17:04:04 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:00 stassats annotated #83415 "substition" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83415#1 17:07:12 Bigshot_: don't know if it's clearer to you 17:10:11 never seen two lambda in a function 17:10:56 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 17:11:50 -!- Adlai [n=user@bzq-84-109-63-215.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:12:54 Bigshot_: while you don't use operators with side effects (eg. you don't use SETF), you may use the substitution model of evaluation. 17:13:37 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:13:39 Bigshot_: so to understand how it works, you just need to susbstitute the parameters by the argument: (ref 'cons) becomes #'(lambda (x y) (funcall 'cons x y)) 17:14:19 it should be clear from my paste... 17:14:27 Bigshot_: and in turn, (bu #'(lambda (x y) (funcall 'cons x y)) x) becomes #'(lambda (y) (funcall #'(lambda (x y) (funcall 'cons x y)) x)) 17:14:47 Indeed. 17:15:26 Bigshot_: I never seen two tigers in a post office. 17:15:36 lol 17:15:38 that said, Bigshot_ really should read SICP 17:15:50 Sbidicuda [n=antani@host25-214-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:16:00 I would rather advise gentle 17:16:07 minion: tell Bigshot_ about gentle 17:16:07 Bigshot_: look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 17:16:11 minion: tell Bigshot_ about SICP 17:16:11 Bigshot_: direct your attention towards SICP: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available gratis from (HTML), (texinfo) and (XHTML, PDF). Accompanying video lectures are available gratis at 17:17:19 Jomyoot_ [n=atip@ppp-124-120-147-41.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 17:17:23 -!- Jomyoot_ [n=atip@ppp-124-120-147-41.revip2.asianet.co.th] has left #lisp 17:18:13 pjb: do you read this book on computer or do you have this book? 17:18:47 rlb3 [n=rlb@166.205.4.186] has joined #lisp 17:30:36 dalton [n=user7994@187.10.23.113] has joined #lisp 17:36:20 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 17:37:36 I have (loop for i in '((1) (2) (3)) maximize (car i)) which returns 3. But how can I return the value of i for which (car i) is maximized, which in this case would be (3)? 17:38:04 I tried with a finally, but that doesn't do the job 17:38:47 *p_l* bought his SICP for £1 17:39:19 real bargain, compared to what I have seen in Amazon 17:39:19 p_l, memo from fusss: "CLSQL can map primary/unique keys to sequences. (create-sequence 'user-id) then (def-view-class user () ((id :initform (next-sequence 'user-id))) :-) 17:39:22 *antoszka* did not, unfortunately. 17:40:00 otoh, my copy is only two years younger than me. It could vote xD 17:40:06 *Sikander* is wondering where p_l got such a good deal. 17:40:23 Sikander: university charity bookstore 17:40:30 aha... 17:41:11 Sikander: it'd be ugly with LOOP 17:41:27 basically, people donate the books, 1/3rd of the price goes to charity, and if it isn't sold in a certain time, the price goes to some absurdly low value with all profits to charity 17:41:29 stassats: Ok, what construct do you advise? a dolist? 17:42:12 stassats: Mind you, I'm not looking for explicit code, just some helpful pointers :) 17:42:26 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-2036.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:42:26 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 17:42:55 -!- rlb3 [n=rlb@166.205.4.186] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info"] 17:43:22 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-180-129-66.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:43:36 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-180-129-66.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:32 bobf_ [n=bob@host86-162-65-15.range86-162.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:44:54 (iterate (for elt in '((1) (2) (3))) (finding elt maximizing (car elt))) in iterate 17:45:12 though, i don't use iterate myself 17:45:29 I don't even have iterate... Probably should get it 17:45:46 at least, I think I don't have it... 17:45:59 oh, I do... 17:46:45 Bigshot_: I have it as a pdf. 17:47:46 stassats: Is iterate "common"? 17:48:14 What I mean is, is it considered ubiquitous enough to just use it? 17:48:45 *Sikander* hates too many stupid dependencies in general. 17:49:32 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-12-30.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:49:33 just use it 17:51:04 Ok 17:51:30 it doesn't do any harm 17:52:13 -!- Sbidicuda [n=antani@host25-214-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:53:32 (reduce (lambda (x y) (if (> (car x) (car y)) x y)) list) looks better than loop 17:53:36 what's the worst that could happen? nobody will use your program. 17:53:40 that will probably happen anyway. 17:54:02 Optimism-Driven Development, or ODD 17:55:25 heheh 17:55:38 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-2-233.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:55:58 I like the way with reduce actually... 17:57:11 loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.32] has joined #lisp 18:00:44 (car (sort list #'> :key #'car)) 18:02:23 I recommend using 'first' rather than 'car' on lists. 18:02:37 even with copy-seq it's still shorter than reduce 18:02:38 hi, can I get the sbcl debugger to tell me on which line it ran into an error on if I (load)ed a file? 18:03:02 don't just load a file, compile it first 18:03:17 If you want what you've written there, why aren't you reducing with #'max? 18:04:16 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 18:04:23 stassats: k thanks 18:04:38 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.80.117] has joined #lisp 18:05:41 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:05:49 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:06:41 Adlai [n=user@bzq-84-109-63-215.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:53 nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:14 -!- Pegazus [n=eagaw@host250.190-224-109.telecom.net.ar] has left #lisp 18:07:33 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:44 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:08:45 Zhivago: how? 18:12:22 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=nyao@217.149.190.86] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:13:35 -!- UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 18:14:29 -!- eros289 [i=aaa@chello087206097138.chello.pl] has quit [] 18:16:51 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:19:53 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17D09E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:30:11 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:34:47 -!- koft is now known as koaftder 18:35:22 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:15 -!- asksol [n=ask@247.243.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [] 18:36:52 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:37:00 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:51 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1613.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:37:58 minion, tell me about format-control 18:38:00 (again) 18:38:00 Adlai: please see format-control: The syntax of format control strings is explained in detail at this page in the hyperspec: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm 18:38:38 minion: tell me about the meaning of life 18:38:39 fe[nl]ix: you speak nonsense 18:38:40 Adlai: tell yourself about /msg minion tell me about something 18:38:58 evenin' 18:39:33 Hi schme. 18:40:00 hello there bob_f. Did you enjoy the lemon? 18:40:27 stassats: did that do anything? 18:40:37 oh wait 18:40:38 I see 18:40:42 *Adlai* feels stupid. 18:40:59 *schme* feels very amused. 18:41:06 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:46:10 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.177.22] has quit [] 18:48:27 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E44717.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:24 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 18:50:52 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest39971 18:52:49 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.177.22] has joined #lisp 18:53:48 -!- kmels is now known as zzZz 18:53:56 -!- zzZz is now known as kmels 18:54:29 _stern_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E45B28.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:39 rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176149429.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:54:50 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:55:24 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [] 18:57:35 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-89-252.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:59:26 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 19:05:19 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E46C63.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:05:26 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:05:35 jao [n=jao@93.Red-83-53-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:07 Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:18 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E44717.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 19:15:31 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:20:05 -!- loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.32] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:21:40 -!- Guest39971 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 19:22:18 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 19:22:25 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:46 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest8986 19:23:42 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 19:23:43 benny` [n=benny@i577A2E68.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:23:53 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:24:53 -!- benny` is now known as benny 19:29:55 HG` [n=wells@xdslhj206.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:30:19 -!- Adlai [n=user@bzq-84-109-63-215.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:31:13 Adlai [n=user@bzq-84-109-63-215.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:12 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B168E3F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:35:05 -!- Guest8986 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 19:39:17 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.1"] 19:39:34 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-252-69.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:41:45 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-89-252.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 19:42:11 -!- Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A644CC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5/20090624025744]"] 19:42:27 -!- Adlai [n=user@bzq-84-109-63-215.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:42:35 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-005-168.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:01 pjb: here? 19:43:02 there haven't been any good new lisp web server packges introduced in the last 18-34 months have there? 19:43:09 Yes. 19:43:12 *24 19:43:21 yes? 19:43:27 pjb: How do you generate tags for the clisp source? 19:43:30 ah, sorry. 19:44:08 there was some web-server which generated some noise, don't know if it's any good 19:45:01 make -f Makefile.devel tags 19:45:06 google for fastest web server lisp 19:45:06 hmm, noise. Any reason I might possibly want to look at it over Hunchentoot? 19:45:30 stassats. Acknowledged. 19:45:59 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:09 that's how it was advertised, don't know if it's really that fast 19:46:45 teepeedee2 I take it 19:47:13 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:49:18 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.12.76] has joined #lisp 19:49:56 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 19:50:05 hi guys, how can i iterate over a vector getting the value and index at each iteration? 19:50:06 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 19:50:36 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-005-168.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:50:47 (loop for i from 0 for value across vector do (print (list i value))) 19:50:49 trebor_home [n=user@92.117.104.64] has joined #lisp 19:51:24 i guess it's at least something to think about if you had an engine-pluggable framework of some kind. Otherwise it's a science project, albeit a possibly successful one. 19:52:22 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:53:24 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.51.25] has joined #lisp 19:53:28 hmm I've been playing with macros and am rather puzzled by a few aspects... at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83405 annotation 1 worked but obviously this fails when creting functions with parameters... the last one works in repl but not in a function also 19:53:40 s/creting/creating/ 19:54:07 nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:27 yet of course if a function does the intern/format dance itself with symbols then it works 19:54:50 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 19:55:55 because it binds your variable at the run-time 19:56:51 19:57:42 -!- mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-215-139.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:57:51 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:59:53 -!- Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:00:02 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.12.76] has quit [] 20:01:09 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:03:02 hmm so are macros much less powerful than I first had the impression? 20:03:40 yes, they can't open beer cans 20:06:13 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 20:08:02 phadthai: They are probably as powerful as your impression of 'em, but you need to seperate macroexpand time from runtime :) 20:08:47 I also tried using eval and eval-when but this didn't help any 20:09:06 well it helps in the first annotation as it works there from a function though 20:10:33 except that of course the problem there were errors if trying to supply parameters (they're unbound names) 20:10:51 phadthai: What do you expect to happen in the last one? 20:11:37 Why do you want this? 20:11:51 a defun foo-bar if (test :foo) 20:12:20 tcr: learning and experimentation :) 20:12:36 elias`_ [n=c@host86-145-40-174.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:13:11 phadthai: Read the CLHS Issue write up about COMPILER-LET. 20:13:17 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-28-249.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:13:24 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-85-184.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:13:27 Basically you're looking for COMPILER-LET, which was removed from the language. 20:13:38 hmm interesting 20:13:39 You can fake it using MACROLET, or SYMBOL-MACROLET, though. 20:13:48 thanks, I'll read it for sure 20:13:51 How to fake is also described in that writeup 20:14:01 Adlai [n=user@bzq-84-109-63-215.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:57 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:15:04 -!- elias`_ is now known as elias` 20:16:48 If your implementations supports storage access to lexical-environments, WITH-FUNCTION-PREFIX could expand to something like (locally (declare (function-prefix :foo)) ...), and PREFIX-DEFUN could get the prefix by DECLARATION-INFORMATION. 20:16:52 -!- trebor_home [n=user@92.117.104.64] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:17:06 trebor_home [n=user@92.117.104.64] has joined #lisp 20:18:03 phadthai: You might want to look at something simpler... (defmacro foo (x) `(defun ,x () 1)) (defun test (name) (foo name)) and you'll see that whatever you hand TEST it will define a function named NAME 20:18:38 interesting... I've played with locally yesterday but with no success so far 20:18:57 schme: thanks, I'm nothing this for further testing as well :) 20:19:03 s/nothing/noting/ 20:20:07 phadthai: If you could check the code for TEST there it'd be (defun name () 1) .. that there name variable in test is not bound to anything at the time the macro is expanded. 20:20:30 just like prefix in your test. 20:21:36 yes 20:21:36 pjb: Where can I find the definition of make_macro? 20:22:38 defunkt [n=user@c-24-130-33-61.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:38 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 20:24:01 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-2036.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 20:26:23 tcr: find clisp -type f -name \*.o -o -exec grep -n make_macro {} /dev/null \; 20:26:50 in my old sources, it's around clisp/src/record.d:769 20:27:53 It's more economical to do + instead of \; in this case. 20:28:22 antoszka: What is the difference? 20:29:11 schme: It supplies a signle list of arguments of the greates possible lenght for the given shell, instead of running grep each time for a single file. 20:29:25 grep /expression/ file1 file2 file3 ... 20:29:49 oooh 20:29:55 Very nice trick. 20:31:33 Yeah, it's cool. 20:33:33 Hrm, ok, seems pretty much impossible to get good arglist for functions implemented in C on Clisp. 20:34:03 I guess you would have to modify the macros declaring them. 20:34:19 LISPFUN 20:34:25 emarsden [n=user@host174-208-static.14-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:34:30 Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:55 They're all gathered in constsym.c 20:35:32 Err, no, it seems the arguments are not defined there... 20:35:47 You'd have to change LISPFUNN 20:35:59 err, yeah LISPFUN 20:36:04 wubbster [n=wubb@doc-24-206-235-153.kw.tx.cebridge.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:08 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [] 20:36:39 I like how ECL solved this. A very light-weight special-purpose preprocessor. 20:36:54 Just for declaring lambda-lists sensibly 20:37:11 Clisp looks like a real mess in comparasion. :) 20:39:12 Yes, there are 'informal' comments in the bodies after LISPFUN* where we could collect the arg list from. 20:40:10 Yes, using regexps! 20:41:22 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.176.20] has joined #lisp 20:42:28 trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-059-005-168.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:05 heh 20:44:07 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:45:17 -!- trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-059-005-168.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 20:50:14 phadthai: Read the write up? 20:50:35 nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:38 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.51.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:50:46 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:52:07 tcr: reading the "background and analysis" part which indeed discusses macrolet and symbol-macrolet 20:52:24 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 20:53:04 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:54:10 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:57:19 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:02:18 nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:10 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:05:51 -!- trebor_home [n=user@92.117.104.64] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:05:53 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:09:12 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 21:13:55 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:15:15 X-Scale2 [n=email@89-180-166-232.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 21:19:49 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 21:23:16 -!- emarsden [n=user@host174-208-static.14-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:23:52 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [] 21:24:48 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.145.28] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:24:51 -!- X-Scale2 is now known as TR2N 21:27:58 Jabberwock [n=jens@port-10420.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 21:30:06 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-2036.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:31:28 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:31:58 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:10 nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:59 how to define this? (reduce 'o-f '(9 18)) should give 27 21:33:08 how to define o-f 21:33:55 (reduce #'+ '(9 18)) 21:34:18 This sounds like homework. 21:34:21 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B204.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:52 (reduce (constantly 27) '(9 18)) is more efficient 21:35:32 how to use asdf on windows? 21:35:48 I am trying to install a package but don't know how to create symlink 21:36:02 push all directories to the registry? 21:36:25 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:46 ok that's one solution 21:37:13 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B204.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:37:56 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:39:27 -!- Jabberwock [n=jens@port-10420.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:40:41 -!- defunkt [n=user@c-24-130-33-61.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 21:40:56 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [] 21:41:36 mjf [n=mjf@r11gz66.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 21:43:45 nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:07 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["A way a lone a last a loved a long the..."] 21:47:00 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:52 tcr: i also know that (reduce '+ '(9 18)) gives 27 21:50:54 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B204.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:54 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-89-252.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:52:26 agreeing with stassats 21:52:50 about constantly 21:52:51 (reduce #'logxor '(19 8)) => 27 21:53:08 taking any number guys i just want the addtion 21:53:11 addition* 21:53:16 er, maybe the function is not what we think it is 21:53:39 i don't want (-(-(- 1 2) 3 ) 4) 21:53:53 (lambda (list) (expt (car list) 3)) 21:54:02 sorry, 21:54:08 (lambda (list) (expt (sqrt (car list)) 3)) is what I meant 21:54:56 wrap with usual arity sensitivity and you're done! 21:55:20 S11001001: what chars does the binary in your nick represent? 21:55:28 which table should i look? 4 bit chars? 21:55:42 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-102-51.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:55:46 Bigshot_: heard of Star Trek? 21:56:19 sorry, that came off as insulting, which I did not intend 21:56:47 it is the name of an episode and a dig on how AOL uniquifies usernames 21:57:14 you think that everyone is watching Star Trek? That's an insult! 21:57:22 yeah 21:57:35 start trek is crap 21:57:40 star* 21:57:56 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslhj206.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:59:14 (reduce 'a-func-similar-to-addition '(9 18)) 21:59:28 how to define this "a-func" 22:00:11 room in coma 22:00:23 idler relay chat 22:00:33 (truncate (expt (reduce #'log '(19 8)) 9.475727)) => 27 22:00:50 sorry... 22:00:52 how about (7 11)? 22:00:57 i want 18 22:01:03 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:01:28 what is "a function similar to addition"? 22:02:03 let me show you the whole thing then if you would like to see 22:02:25 are you really asking how to define a function that adds two numbers together? 22:02:32 yes 22:02:41 using "reduce" 22:03:02 reduce 'somefunc 'list 22:04:22 What's the point of this inane exercise? 22:04:47 (defun add (x y) (if (zerop y) x (add (+ x (signum y)) (- y (signum y))))) (reduce #'add '(1 2 3)) => 6 22:06:30 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:06:37 Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 22:07:10 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:08:29 (defun add (x y) (- 0 (- 0 x y))) 22:08:40 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 22:09:00 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 22:09:38 Bigshot_ pasted "add vectors" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83427 22:10:00 (log (reduce #'* '(7 11) :key #'exp)) 22:10:45 tcr: that's nicer 22:12:23 -!- macdice [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["rain"] 22:13:20 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:13:24 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-89-252.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:14:23 wee how complex can this bee 22:17:33 stassats: you there bud? 22:18:10 yes, i'm here 22:18:44 stassats: zero-arg version 22:19:41 did ya have a look at the link? 22:22:07 Bigshot_: i did, what questions do you have? 22:22:35 (format t "msg") on windows does not output to slime repl 22:22:54 how should i define out-func so it does its job? 22:22:54 try to update slime 22:23:18 stassats: me? 22:23:23 reduce 'out-func ...blah 22:23:25 leo2007: yep 22:23:37 My slime is pretty up-to-date 06-21 22:23:41 isn't that new enough? 22:23:48 leo2007: no 22:24:13 Before reporting a problem, update 22:24:18 ok 22:24:23 fvw [n=sdfpme@125.93.105.39] has joined #lisp 22:24:37 tcr now you know what problem i am having? 22:25:02 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:25:08 adamvh [n=adamvh@c-76-125-233-103.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:26 Bigshot_: Yes that you do not know Lisp, and do not really have the incentive to learn it. 22:25:35 -!- koaftder [n=kvirc@adsl-221-112-72.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 22:25:40 sad 22:26:05 Bigshot_: if i write that function instead of you it won't teach you anything, and i'm no teacher, i don't know what you know and what you don't, so you need to ask concrete questions 22:26:47 that's helpful 22:27:05 the most important rule in problem solving is decomposition into smaller problems 22:27:33 you learnt that from "how to solve it"? 22:27:43 so if you don't know how to solve a particular problem, decompose it into problems which you can solve 22:28:15 i already did that only last touch is left 22:28:22 to add the final result 22:28:46 Bigshot_: i've learnt that from experience 22:30:25 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:31:10 -!- ausente [n=user7994@187.10.23.113] has quit ["Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de"] 22:31:26 stassats: thanks 22:31:28 fixed 22:32:07 khisanth__ [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-233-162.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:56 Bigshot_: you'd better have more describing names for your functions 22:33:33 stassats: the problem is done i just need to "add" the final result 22:33:43 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-237-196.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:33:48 but this reduce is kinda itchy 22:34:05 -!- khisanth__ is now known as Khisanth 22:36:47 i suggest you to have two functions, multiple-vector and add-vector, then (add-vector (multiple-vector a c) (multiple-vector b d) 22:36:53 ) 22:37:55 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r11gz66.net.upc.cz] has quit ["GNU is *indeed* No UNIX!"] 22:38:55 stassats: what about reduce? 22:39:23 Bigshot_: you can use reduce to define new functions that have more specific roles. 22:39:41 well, you'd use reduce in on of this functions 22:40:59 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.176.20] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:43:38 -!- drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:44:33 I can not save-lisp-and-die on windows 22:44:35 ideas? 22:45:26 leo2007: which implementation? 22:46:11 anything besides sbcl has this functionality named "save-lisp-and-die"? 22:46:41 no, no one has yet ported the heap-corruption feature to other lisps' image savers 22:46:42 stassats, have you so quickly forgotten my ignorance of all things Lispy? :D 22:47:37 S11001001: well, cmucl dies to, but lies in the function name 22:47:42 s/to/too/ 22:50:14 Adlai: it works now 22:51:31 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [] 22:54:37 nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:34 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:57:41 ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:35 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Client Quit] 23:00:10 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 23:06:37 nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:51 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:07:25 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 23:07:36 heh it was pretty simple 23:07:50 funcall '+ blah blah 23:09:21 -!- bobf_ [n=bob@host86-162-65-15.range86-162.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:09:26 what's the difference between arguments and parameter in lisp? 23:10:14 Usually if any distinction is drawn between them, a parameter is an abstract place for input to a procedure, whereas an argument is a particular value supplied for a parameter. 23:12:05 _8david [n=user@pD954205B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:12:32 Riastradh: (defun a (x) (+ x x)) so here x is a parameter? 23:15:18 Yes, and if I write (A 5), then 5 is the argument for the parameter that we named X in the definition of A. 23:22:26 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #lisp 23:29:23 -!- lichtblau [n=user@pD9543696.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:29:28 -!- cp2 [n=will@unaffiliated/cp2] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:33:07 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 23:37:03 -!- Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:38:39 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 23:42:11 dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.81.139.116] has joined #lisp 23:42:37 -!- dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.81.139.116] has left #lisp 23:43:04 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@125.93.105.39] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:44:28 loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.32] has joined #lisp 23:46:34 Is there a built-in function, similar to "reduce" 23:46:50 returning a list with each intermediate combination of the list elements? 23:47:24 as in (reduce-intermediate (list 1 2 3) #'+) 23:47:28 returns 23:47:42 (1 3 6) 23:47:42 ? 23:48:15 -!- Ycros [n=ycros@gnaw.yi.org] has left #lisp 23:50:11 adamvh: not that I know of, although you could write one on top of reduce 23:50:45 Yeah, I've been rolling my own, but I figured I'd check just in case 23:50:50 thanks 23:51:56 (maplist (lambda (x) (reduce #'+ x)) (reverse '(1 2 3))) 23:52:41 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-117-37.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 23:55:37 though, i'd use not reduce, but loop (loop for i in '(1 2 3) sum i into result collect result) 23:55:54 way to make a linear-time operation into a quadratic one, stassats. It's not too hard to implement scan in terms of fold, with an accumulator argument. 23:56:25 outer LET binding? 23:58:42 the common lisp hyperspec search feature in SLIME doesn't seem to know about any "fold" 23:58:45 Adlai pasted "reduce-intermediate for adamvh" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83431 23:59:17 my version is linear-time :D 23:59:39 it's also a bit rough on the eyes. 23:59:44 Adlai: that's tricky... 23:59:53 Mine were all built on do