00:00:15 I'm not sure the connection is going down; maybe it's just a normal BREAK and Bigshot_ is misinterpreting the situation 00:00:36 (see the title of his paste) 00:00:43 it works now ... i fixed push thing 00:01:01 connection doesn't break now 00:01:09 *sheesh* 00:01:15 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 00:01:21 xan [n=xan@203.Red-83-52-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:23 pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 00:01:31 :) 00:04:59 Bigshot_ annotated #83332 "returns "nil" everytime " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83332#2 00:06:30 Bigshot_: notice how count-length implements already the same function as jump-to-next. You could just return the additionnal result! 00:07:22 Bigshot_: the problem is with push-elem. It wants to have side effects, and you don't know how to do that. Better stick with functions, without side effects. 00:08:23 -!- willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Success] 00:08:26 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:08:41 Bigshot_: Have you read http://paste.lisp.org/display/83257 ? 00:09:00 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:10:52 pjb: so my code is completely wrong? can't i improve upon it? 00:11:08 Bigshot_: it's not completely wrong. 00:11:17 i know there are side effects but i want to make it work 00:11:55 enn [n=eli@codeanddata.com] has joined #lisp 00:12:33 Bigshot_: First modify count-length to return the list so you already have the result of jump-to-next. 00:12:43 -!- BrianRice`_ is now known as BrianRice 00:13:08 how can i make it return "2" values and later make use of those 2 values? 00:13:12 -!- xan [n=xan@203.Red-83-52-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:13:19 Bigshot_: read http://paste.lisp.org/display/83257 it's explained here. 00:13:49 Quetzalcoatl_ [n=godless@cpe-71-72-235-91.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:13:52 -!- demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-077-147.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:14:44 pjb i don't want to use "mult-val-bind" function 00:14:53 Bigshot_: Why? 00:15:20 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Success] 00:15:43 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:52 willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 00:16:18 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:16:42 what's so sad about using jump-to-nxt? 00:17:00 You're repeating the same job as count-length. 00:17:11 So your program becomes twice slower. 00:17:37 i am not making any `real-time' system :) hehe 00:17:53 Why don't you want to use multie-value-bind? 00:17:54 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:18:05 let me try how to use it 00:18:07 -!- pragma_ [n=pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:18:12 pragma_ [n=pragma@blackshell.com] has joined #lisp 00:18:40 -!- pragma_ is now known as Guest26711 00:18:47 (mult-val-bind (storehere andhere) count-length) 00:18:55 is this how we use it? 00:19:11 pjb ok fine 00:19:12 i got it 00:19:13 Why don't you read the paste? 00:19:20 sorry about that pjb 00:26:43 Bigshot_ annotated #83332 "pjb is this how we use it?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83332#3 00:26:47 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-23-76.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 00:27:34 (multiple-value-bind (elem-len rem-list) (count-length element orig-list len) (use-them-here elem-len rem-list)) 00:27:35 i dont' understand that #...# 00:27:46 #| is a comment |# 00:27:57 ... means that you should put your code here, instead of the comment. 00:30:06 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.106] has quit ["leaving"] 00:35:19 Bigshot_ annotated #83332 "pjb it gives -nil- still" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83332#4 00:37:13 what are you trying to do? 00:37:49 compress a list (a a a b b ) should give (a 3 b 2) 00:38:45 Bigshot_: it seems your pastes of yesterday disappeared. Have you selected an expiration date? 00:38:57 hold on i am pasting it again 00:39:05 Bigshot_: it might be difficult to learn something if you lose your memory very few hours... 00:39:36 Bigshot_: don't bother, I annotated your last paste of yesterday for you to study it today, and it's not here anymore... 00:39:37 Bigshot_: what is this "comp-list" argument you are passing in? 00:39:47 *I*'ll have to paste it again... 00:41:17 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-59-155.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:41:28 serichsen: that's just a dummy variable 00:41:29 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:30 comp-list 00:41:52 Hello all. I'm trying to write some code that overrides functions in sb-impl. 00:42:19 When I do this, I get the package-locked-error which has a continue option 00:42:42 I'd like to bind a handler to the definition forms and continue this condition automatically 00:42:54 But it seems not to work. Can anyone shed an idea? This is the code: 00:43:04 Bigshot_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/83337 00:43:10 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177153099.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:43:19 (handler-bind ((error #'(lambda (c) 00:43:19 (let ((r (find-restart 'continue c))) 00:43:19 (when r (invoke-restart r)))))) 00:43:20 (progn (defun ... 00:43:38 minion: tell Moe111 about lisppaste 00:43:38 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 00:43:51 Moe111: what about WITHOUT-PACKAGE-LOCKS? 00:44:42 drewc: thanks, investigating 00:45:01 serichsen: do you get the code now? 00:45:44 Bigshot_: before going into the complexities of compress-list, you should learn about writting a normal recursive function. Let's start with something simple, write a recursive function that will sum the elements of the list: (defun sum (numbers) ...) (sum '(1 2 3 4)) --> 10 (sum '()) --> 0 00:45:46 Moe111: the SBCL manual has a whole section on package locks... good reading if you are dealing with package locks in sbcl 00:46:25 drewc: yes, I'm there now. I was looking at the hyperspec before and there wasn't mention of these. Thanks for the tip 00:46:56 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 00:47:09 Bigshot_: you are doing too much 00:47:19 (defun sum-list (x) ((null list) 0) (+ (car x) (sum-list(cdr x))) 00:47:33 Bigshot_: Missing the COND, but ok. 00:47:37 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.106] has joined #lisp 00:47:39 Bigshot_: also, your recursion seems to miss a base case 00:48:13 Now implement a simple version of mapcar: (defun my-mapcar (fun list) ...) that will build a list containning the result of calling the function fun on each element of list in turn. 00:48:32 hmmm. I must be not getting something: 00:48:32 (sb-ext:without-package-locks 00:48:33 (defun SB-IMPL::char->utf8 (char) 00:48:33 (char-code char)) ) 00:48:42 still gets me into the debugger 00:49:51 Moe111: it seems that you are not getting lisppaste 00:50:30 ha! mea culpa. I will do lisppaste 00:50:56 Moe111 pasted "without-package-locks" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83338 00:53:16 benbelly1 [n=ben@cpe-74-67-149-169.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:53:18 (defun my-mapcar (func list) (cond ((null list) list) 00:53:20 (t (cons (func (car list)) (my-mapcar func (cdr list)))))) 00:54:01 ok, but we must write: (funcall func (car list)) 00:54:15 So you should be able to write compress-list in a similar way. 00:54:57 anyone have any idea why that code without-package-locks would still be throwing a condition? 00:55:13 pjb what about my way man i've already spend 3 hours after it! 00:55:23 spent 00:55:31 Bigshot_: once you have elemtn (eg. A), elem-len (eg. 4) and rem-list (eg. (b b c c c)), you can build the resulting list. 00:55:54 Bigshot_: your way is over your head, if you cannot do it in five minutes. 00:56:04 hehe 00:56:05 Bigshot_: so you must learn easier ways first. 00:56:53 Notice that you don't need to test for a length of orig-list greater than 1. (count-length 'a '(a) 0) works well. 00:58:04 ok i removed it 00:58:36 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-89-252.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:58:41 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [] 00:58:46 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@84.131.238.190] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:01:29 -!- asdfqwer [n=cs@98.220.171.58] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:03:50 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:06:55 Can anyone point me to an explanation of the difference between with-accessors and with-slots. Specifically, if both are available, which should I choose and why? 01:07:14 with-slots is for standard-objects, with-accessor is for anything having accessors. 01:07:31 benbelly1, do you know how accessors are different from simple slots? 01:07:41 accessors are functions, right? 01:07:53 accessors are methods. 01:08:00 (let ((c (cons nil nil))) (with-accessors ((a car) (d cdr)) c (setf a 1 d 2)) c) --> (1 . 2) 01:08:22 accessors are couple of functions. 01:08:51 so, faster than slots? 01:08:53 hm, pjb, true, accessors don't even have to be for "objects" 01:09:01 benbelly1: it depends on the situation. 01:09:03 (let ((c (cons 0 0))) (with-accessors ((a car) (d cdr)) c (incf a) (decf d)) c) --> (1 . -1) 01:09:50 benbelly1: accessors will call whatever accessor methods are defined on the objects you're dealing with. with-slots, on the other hand, will deal with CLOS slots directly. 01:09:51 benbelly1: in case of standard-objects, slot access is raw, while accessors may decorate. So it depends on what you mean. 01:10:37 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-21c8cb09d61a0db1] has left #lisp 01:10:49 hrm. Ok. I think I'm gonna play with it a little more 01:10:57 benbelly1: An example might be an object that logs access to its slots. with-accessors would use accessors, and thus generate logs of access, while with-slots would directly access the slots, bypassing any bookkeeping code. 01:11:10 the chapter in PCL about this is very good, imo. 01:11:12 ah 01:11:21 Which chapter is that? 01:11:33 I skimmed, but nothing jumped out (don't have the index :) ) 01:11:45 benbelly1: 17 01:12:10 cool. Thanks Adlai and pbj 01:13:00 good luck with your project, benbelly1. 01:13:09 thx 01:13:55 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 01:15:37 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-083-064.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:17:45 fvw_ [n=sdfpme@113.77.206.91] has joined #lisp 01:18:23 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:22:43 willb2 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 01:26:02 willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 01:26:29 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 01:26:54 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:29:05 LostMonarch [n=roby@host240-255-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 01:29:47 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.106] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:36:41 Pepe__ [n=ppjet@78.116.1.226] has joined #lisp 01:39:04 -!- willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:39:36 willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 01:40:35 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@78.113.3.173] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:42:20 -!- willb2 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:45:43 -!- fvw_ is now known as fvw 01:46:28 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-65.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:50:27 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host240-255-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 01:51:19 -!- Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:52:35 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 01:53:45 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-67-169-69-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:55:56 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit [Client Quit] 01:56:31 Could anybody tell be if you get a nice drawing at: http://free.informatimago.com:8006/0 ? 01:57:13 very slow, no response yet 01:57:27 There must be aproblem with the DMZ then... 01:57:38 I'll have to update the router configuration. 01:58:47 Xach: I'll do that tomorrow, but you might sleep well, knowing there's a new bot ready to draw nice cons diagrams :-) 01:59:01 -!- willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Success] 01:59:11 I named it claar: Common Lisp Ascii Art carveR 01:59:22 alles claar? 01:59:25 willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 01:59:26 :-) 01:59:30 Good night! 01:59:46 does anyone know Tayssir John Gabbour 01:59:48 ? 02:01:00 pjb http://paste.lisp.org/+1SAW#1 02:01:01 demmel_: http://www.linkedin.com/ppl/webprofile?action=vmi&id=5334187&pvs=pp&authToken=ET--&authType=name&trk=ppro_viewmore&lnk=vw_pprofile 02:01:26 which gives me no way to contact him 02:01:52 demmel_: yes, linkedin gives you a big "Send message" button. 02:02:07 But only for premium accounts... 02:02:13 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:18 Bigshot_: When you wanted to build a sum, you wrote (+ ( (rest ))). 02:02:36 Bigshot_: When you wanted to build a list wrote (cons ( ) ( (rest ))). 02:03:28 Bigshot_: here it's the same. Wrap the ( ... (rest )) with something to build the resulting list, which must contain the (car list) and the elem-len in front of the result of the recusive call. 02:03:45 Bigshot_: Notice that (list* a b l) == (cons a (cons b l)). 02:04:01 Bigshot_: I'm going to bed. Good night! 02:04:27 pjb what shzould i do with 02:04:36 the rest of the remaining variables? 02:04:45 in mult=val=bind 02:04:55 useless variables 02:05:27 Bigshot_: no variable is useless. 02:05:38 you need rem-list for the recursive call. 02:05:46 and elem-len? 02:05:51 -!- blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:06:14 You need it to build the result. 02:06:33 Bigshot_: once you have elemtn (eg. A), elem-len (eg. 4) and rem-list (eg. (b b c c c)), you can build the resulting list. 02:06:55 is what i have done uptil now correct? 02:07:10 Is it working>? 02:07:14 no 02:07:19 give nil 02:07:25 s//give/gies 02:07:26 But the question is more about your thinking process. 02:07:28 hehe 02:07:42 About your reasoning, and what you think when you build the algorithms. 02:08:08 so it's wrong? 02:08:20 or only some modification is reqd? 02:08:31 Try to build compress like you built sum-list or my-mapcar. 02:08:35 Let's talk tomorrow. Good night. 02:09:18 -!- simard [n=user@pcms05.grm.polymtl.ca] has left #lisp 02:10:36 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:11:02 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:13:06 -!- cd1981 [n=cd1981@76.177.111.115] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:13:50 cd1981 [n=cd1981@76.177.111.115] has joined #lisp 02:15:12 -!- acieroid [n=quentin@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:16:34 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:17:08 xan [n=xan@29.Red-83-59-49.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:01 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 02:18:05 acieroid [n=quentin@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 02:19:10 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 02:20:40 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-71-59-210-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:22:35 -!- rouslan_ [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:23:26 -!- benbelly1 [n=ben@cpe-74-67-149-169.rochester.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 02:23:56 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.133.166] has joined #lisp 02:26:11 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-124-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:19 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2E6ED.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 02:27:19 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.206.91] has quit ["leaving"] 02:27:45 -!- willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:28:10 -!- tsuru` [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:28:19 willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 02:28:19 Dabian [n=Dabian@fsf/member/dabian] has joined #lisp 02:29:41 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:29:44 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 02:30:16 is there an alternative to cl-ncurses? 02:30:52 Roll your own? 02:31:33 How do I join two lists in common lisp? union eliminates duplicates and (cons '(0 1 2) '(0 1 2)) gives me '('(0 1 2) 0 1 2) instead of '(0 1 2 0 1 2) 02:32:19 Dabian: You could APPEND. 02:32:57 Thanks schme! 02:32:58 BrianRice [n=water@c-71-59-210-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:59 xinming__ [n=hyy@218.73.137.210] has joined #lisp 02:34:12 willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 02:35:34 Dabian: the low-level way is (I think) (setf (cdr (last list1)) (first list2)) 02:35:42 if you're interested. 02:35:47 you should of course always use append for readability 02:36:44 Right :) 02:36:50 konr: you could also play around with ioctl as well as read sequences from terminfo/termcap 02:37:29 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.130.6] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:42:07 noptys_ [n=noptys@and.noemailaddress.com] has joined #lisp 02:43:18 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:43:22 -!- noptys [n=noptys@and.noemailaddress.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:43:29 http://paste.lisp.org/+1SAW#2 can anyone check this? 02:43:41 it should give (a 3) 02:43:49 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.133.166] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:44:24 p_l: can you check my code? 02:49:18 <_3b> Bigshot_: look at my-mapcar more closely, and think about what each form does 02:49:51 ok -- when there is no more (car list) it prints list* 02:50:10 *_3b* doesn't see any calls to PRINT in that function 02:50:46 how can i make it return a value? how can i save the list* and make a list? 02:50:49 -!- willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:50:57 list variable 02:51:25 <_3b> a function returns the value(s) returned by the last form in the function (assuming you don't exit it early) 02:51:50 <_3b> the last form in the function is the COND, which returns the values of whichever form is executed, or NIL if none are executed 02:52:26 is there any way to save that list* in some list variable? 02:52:30 <_3b> there is only 1 clause in the COND, so it either returns the result of that (when (CONSP LIST) is true) or NIL 02:52:47 <_3b> there are lots of ways 02:53:02 <_3b> LET is a common way to create variable bindings, and store things in them 02:53:04 i tried let but 02:53:23 <_3b> LET also returns the values of the last form in the body of the LET 02:53:58 it overwrites it a every iteration should it be (let ((compressed (consp '()))? 02:54:16 \consp\cons 02:55:00 let overwrites the variable at every iteration! 02:55:30 <_3b> let creates variable bindings, it doesn't overwrite anything 02:55:47 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:55:48 hmm... then why am i getting Nil? 02:55:53 <_3b> the variable binding lasts until the end of the LET 02:56:22 <_3b> in the current code, you return (my-mapcar rem-list), which returns NIL if rem-list is NIL 02:56:38 <_3b> did you implement your own version of mapcar yet? 02:58:12 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:16 <_3b> (looks like you pasted it in channel a while ago, so yes...) 02:58:20 yes and i modified it 02:58:35 <_3b> how did the original version build a list to return? 02:59:28 <_3b> also, (list* (values ...)) probably doesn't do what you want 03:02:35 http://paste.lisp.org/+1SAW#3 _3b 03:07:05 <_3b> well, does it work? if not, why not? 03:07:40 *Fade* gets dejavu 03:09:20 _3b: I am impressed by your patience 03:09:33 _3b it breaks the connection of slime 03:09:49 it compiles but breaks the clisp connection 03:10:06 <_3b> when you say 'break' do you mean it starts the debugger? 03:10:12 evaluation aborted 03:10:18 hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.4.133] has joined #lisp 03:10:27 when i input (my-mapcar '(a a a0) 03:11:14 <_3b> 'evaluation aborted' usually means it went into the debugger, and you exited the debugger 03:11:41 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-231.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:13:15 nvm 03:14:28 YAY 03:15:37 -!- demmel_ [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-087-162.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 03:16:07 roderic [n=user@bubbles.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 03:16:10 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-194.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:17:24 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@24.91.154.83] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:18:48 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-23-76.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:19:39 Does a function know its own name, and if so, how do I find it? (I want to pass it to another function so it can "funcall" it. Would save me some typing. :) 03:21:45 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-137-202.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:04 i've been using this, Dabian: (define-symbol-macro =lex-function-name= (lex-function-name)) (defmacro lex-function-name () `',(sb-c::lambda-%source-name (sb-c::lexenv-lambda sb-c:*lexenv*))) (defun test () =lex-function-name=)) 03:22:07 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:22:24 not sure it works all the time or even make sense .. and it's sbcl specific 03:22:53 I'm using CLISP, but thank you for the insight. 03:23:18 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 03:25:52 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.51.25] has joined #lisp 03:26:20 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.4.133] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:27:49 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-215-139.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:36 -!- cd1981 [n=cd1981@76.177.111.115] has quit [Client Quit] 03:31:59 -!- Quetzalcoatl_ [n=godless@cpe-71-72-235-91.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:32:54 Dabian pasted "I wonder if I could avoid typing the function name when calling "all"" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83342 03:33:45 -!- A_anekos is now known as anekos 03:34:24 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 03:35:41 Good morning. 03:36:09 mårn 03:36:16 er, good morning* 03:36:37 lnostdal: `mårn' is perfectly fine. 03:37:25 Dabian annotated #83342 "I found an alternative solution" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83342#1 03:37:39 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-0-34.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:37:41 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.206.91] has joined #lisp 03:37:45 Dabian: write a macro (defmacro callit (a b) `(if alist (all ',a alist ',b))) 03:38:51 Dabian: But that doesn't look like great code anyway. 03:39:13 I am learning. 03:39:48 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-6-10.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:40:11 Dabian: Are you essentially collecting elements with positions that are 0, 1, and 2 modulo 3? 03:40:25 Yes 03:41:19 (defun collect-every-third (list) (loop for elem in list by #'cdddr collect elem)) 03:41:33 (defun quantities (list) (collect-every-third list)) 03:41:47 (defun units (list) (collect-every-third (cdr list))) etc 03:42:02 Neat! :) 03:42:16 (untested) 03:43:07 Not anymore. ;) 03:43:18 It works for quantities. 03:43:25 great! 03:43:41 Yes. :) 03:44:05 -!- A_anekos is now known as anekos 03:44:18 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 03:46:46 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-151-57.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:47:09 Dabian annotated #83342 "Beach found an elegant sollution" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83342#2 03:48:44 -!- A_anekos is now known as anekos 03:50:34 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:57 Demosthenex [n=demo@rrcs-24-103-208-12.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:56:45 -!- Drakeson [n=user@76-10-137-169.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:56:55 Drakeson [n=user@76-10-137-169.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:58:39 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-156-43.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:00:27 -!- Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:00:58 Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 04:01:45 -!- xan [n=xan@29.Red-83-59-49.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:03:40 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 04:06:22 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:01 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 04:09:40 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:15:19 hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.4.133] has joined #lisp 04:15:25 -!- Dabian [n=Dabian@fsf/member/dabian] has left #lisp 04:17:58 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 04:18:42 anyone have experience connection SBCL/linux -> CLSQL -> unixODBC -> FreeTDS -> MSSQL ? 04:19:17 I'm getting some flakey behaviour on returned data types 04:26:24 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 04:31:38 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:31:44 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [] 04:32:13 Does anyone have a email address for Paul Graham other than pg@ycombinator.com? My favorite economist over at Cafe Hayek ( http://www.cafehayek.com ) would like to contact him, probably for an interview on EconoTalk. 04:35:30 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 04:39:28 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-19-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 04:42:18 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 04:43:19 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-147-142.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:31 I have a list of 190 objects and I want to split it into several sublists grouped by the values contained in one of the slots (which overlap between objects). What would be the tidiest way to do this? e.g if there were three objects, (12 12 14), I would want two sublists (12 12) (14) 04:47:17 drafael: loop once over the list and store the objects into a hash table using the value of the slot. Then loop over the keys of the hash table and create the final list. 04:47:42 ooh, good idea! 04:47:45 thanks :) 04:48:07 No problem. 04:51:38 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 04:53:52 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.4.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:54:46 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:59:34 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.206.91] has quit ["leaving"] 05:00:46 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 05:00:49 morning 05:00:54 hello splittist 05:05:30 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 05:12:35 -!- A_anekos is now known as anekos 05:13:31 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:15:19 -!- Demosthenex [n=demo@rrcs-24-103-208-12.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:24:55 drafael: myself, I'd loop over the list and cond on that value and append to the appropriate list in each clause 05:25:11 beach: I don't understand why you'd involve a hash table; isn't that unnecessary overhead? 05:25:27 oh, I think I see 05:25:33 I went with the hash table, it was a quite satisfying solution I found 05:25:43 the hash table solution would work when you don't know beforehand all the possible values 05:25:46 Demosthenex [n=demo@173.86.192.171] has joined #lisp 05:25:51 and/or when the set of possible values is very large. 05:26:22 beach: am I correct as to the reasoning behind that? 05:26:57 -!- Summersault [n=root@189.107.157.209] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:26:58 it was for calculating profit and loss based on an arbitrary number of account codes in my case and worked very well 05:28:21 real-world app? 05:29:36 i'd like to know the reasoning too. i'd gone with ralith's solution (and actually yesterday implemented something like that) 05:30:05 guaqua: as I just observed, the hash table solution makes sense if you can't or don't want to write a cond clause for every possible value 05:30:07 me making my life easier app - just a hackish thing so that I could finish the accounts pronto 05:30:18 drafael: sounds real-world to me. Cool! 05:30:19 guaqua: The problem is with "the appropriate list". How do you find it? 05:30:46 guaqua: Furthermore, appending makes it quadratic. 05:30:48 guaqua: well, I had imagined you'd do something like (let ((list1) (list2) ...) with a list for every possible value of the slot 05:30:55 er 05:30:57 beach: ^ 05:31:05 forgot about append's time, though, good point 05:31:12 oh, with _many_ lists to append 05:31:36 beach: wait, it doesn't have to be that slow, does it? 05:31:37 Ralith: If you introduce a variable for each value, you would have to know all possible values in advance. 05:31:41 beach: do you know how to get a "full" trace in clisp? 05:31:44 yes, as I commented above. 05:31:49 http://paste.lisp.org/display/83348 05:31:49 i was thinking my small problem with a very limited amount of lists and values 05:31:53 Bigshot_: no 05:32:00 beach: but couldn't you just do (append (newvalue) list) for O(1)? 05:32:27 Ralith: that is know as CONS. 05:32:31 *known 05:32:34 :P 05:32:36 okay 05:32:42 it would work, anyway 05:33:09 Ralith: That's not good enough in my book. 05:33:09 and be a better solution if (and only if) you had a small set of values known in advance. 05:33:15 O(1) isn't good enough? 05:33:25 O.o 05:33:26 Ralith: that "it would work" 05:33:35 er 05:33:36 what? 05:33:44 do you prefer things that don't work? O.o 05:34:01 Ralith: The fact that something works is not good enough in my book. It also has to be maintainable, elegant, fast, etc. 05:34:08 yes 05:34:22 works and done right are two separate things 05:34:25 and it is all of the above so long as, as i've said several times now, it's only a few values, and known in advance. 05:34:47 admittedly the hashtable solution is somewhat more elegant. 05:34:57 even when it's not strictly necessary 05:35:36 with a hash table it's immediately readable. with something else you have to figure it out 05:37:33 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 05:43:30 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-252-69.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:20 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["off"] 05:48:51 evening 05:49:19 hello slyrus_ 05:49:30 hey beach. how's being back home? 05:49:38 not great 05:49:49 I would rather be back in Sài Gòn. 05:50:07 slyrus_: How are things with you? 05:50:43 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 05:50:44 busy with work, not much time to enjoy summer, but not too bad 05:51:32 I am impressed with how you manage to find time for hacking despite being so busy. 05:52:03 heh. not much time for hacking, unfortunately. every now and then... 05:52:33 i've been wanting to hack on a bunch of things though: 05:53:09 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:53:36 1) enhancements to the chemicl data models for supporting chirality and geometric isomers and a better layout engine for chemicl-draw for handling complex cyclic molecules 05:54:00 that's some arcane hackery 05:54:25 2) either (or both) ripping the clem stuff out of ch-image and making a set of clem-like functions for matrix math and what not that don't use the clem MOP hackery and classes but rather operate directly on arrays 05:55:41 3) actually using cl-bio to load some complete genomes up and see how well I can, for instance, hack on a dozen or so drosophila species in memory using cl-bio's relatively efficient storage of the sequence 05:55:43 s 05:55:52 but I never seem to find the time... 05:56:10 oh, and better documentation and evangelism work for epigraph and retrospectiff 05:56:35 slyrus_: Sounds like a lot of work. 05:56:46 slyrus_: Why do you want to do 2)? 05:57:41 umm... I have this vague feeling that folks would be more likely to use ch-image if it didn't require clem and, also, I've (sort of) come to regret some of the design decisions I made early on in CLEM. 05:58:08 I made a bunch of relatively heavy-weight infrastructure that doesn't really get used. I could probably scrap at and things would still be ok. 05:58:39 I see. 05:59:07 I'm also coming to realize that, as Xof and others suggested long ago, one probably doesn't really want to try and unify matrices and images 05:59:25 That's probably true. 06:00:04 the core matrix arithmetic operations and things like affine transformations and discrete convolution should probably be made to work directly on arrays 06:00:21 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.1"] 06:00:32 the problem is the double-edged sword of all of the hackery I put in place to have the compiler generate efficient code when using typed matrices. 06:01:13 You mean for various subtypes of arrays? 06:01:21 [sort of] 06:01:28 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.206.91] has joined #lisp 06:01:55 it's nice that I've got, for instance, m+ methods that take various types of typed arrays and dispatch on methods with the appropriate declarations such that, say, adding two 16-bit matrices and returning the results in a 32-bit matrix happens quickly 06:02:03 yeah, basically 06:02:14 -!- wubbster [n=wubb@doc-24-206-235-153.kw.tx.cebridge.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:02:27 That could become messy if you go straight arrays. 06:02:29 except that they're not subtypes of arrays, their matrices which are a wrapper class around the arrays 06:02:38 sure 06:02:41 wubbster [n=wubb@doc-24-206-235-153.kw.tx.cebridge.net] has joined #lisp 06:02:54 well, in theory, one could dispatch on the type of the array and try to get a similar effect 06:03:22 slyrus_: yeah "dispatch" but you would have to do that manually without the help of CLOS. 06:03:38 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:03:42 right 06:03:49 morning Krystof 06:04:12 -!- wubbster [n=wubb@doc-24-206-235-153.kw.tx.cebridge.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:04:14 which could be OK, since it is probably fair to say that the dispatch would be fast compared to the operation that follows. 06:04:21 yes 06:04:59 Well, it's worth a shot I suppose. 06:05:54 maybe... I've been thinking about it anyway. 06:06:16 How would you make it extensible with new types? 06:06:24 perhaps the CLOS/MOP stuff I did isn't such a bad idea, but, either way, it could probably be implemented more cleanly 06:06:25 wubbster [n=wubb@doc-24-206-235-153.kw.tx.cebridge.net] has joined #lisp 06:06:27 you wouldn't... 06:06:49 but then again, even though I added all this machinery for adding new matrix types to CLEM, I haven't added any new types in a long time... 06:07:31 slyrus_: others might want to though some day. 06:07:55 slyrus_: you could design your own dispatch mechanism and have people use it for adding new types. 06:08:38 yeah, like I said, maybe the existing approach isn't so bad after all :) 06:09:16 *beach* needs to prepare for going to work. 06:09:48 beach: the other thing I was thinking was that instead of using a wrapper class I could use some sort of weakly-keyed hashtable that had the info that would normally be in the wrapper class and could dispatch on that so that things _looked_ more like arrays 06:09:57 ok, perhaps we can continue this discussion another time 06:10:14 say hi to the bordelais 06:12:19 -!- thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has quit ["leaving"] 06:13:37 scottj [i=foobar@97-113-157-172.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:14:24 wubbster_ [n=wubb@doc-24-206-235-153.kw.tx.cebridge.net] has joined #lisp 06:15:45 -!- wubbster [n=wubb@doc-24-206-235-153.kw.tx.cebridge.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:15:59 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:18:31 -!- Jarvellis is now known as Elench 06:25:08 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:25:36 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest95255 06:27:12 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:27:13 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:27:24 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 06:27:36 -!- xinming__ [n=hyy@218.73.137.210] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:29:00 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.250.161] has joined #lisp 06:32:23 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:34:53 ennen [n=nn@studio25.org] has joined #lisp 06:36:56 -!- anekos [n=anekos@pl410.nas925.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit ["Server Configuration changed; reconnect"] 06:37:04 slyrus_: will do. I'll be back later as spiaggia. 06:37:22 anekos [n=anekos@pl410.nas925.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:38:24 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 06:39:25 jyujin [n=jyujin@d221-88-81.commercial.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 06:45:58 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-8-126.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:49:59 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-8-126.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit] 06:54:18 -!- Guest26711 is now known as pragma_ 06:55:54 mega1 [n=mega@pool-01a81.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 06:56:26 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 06:56:53 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:57:35 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:58:50 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 06:59:26 -!- Guest95255 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 06:59:41 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 07:00:09 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest48786 07:00:40 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-86-153.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:01:50 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 07:02:04 ajazz [n=ajazz@91.144.178.36] has joined #lisp 07:05:35 good morning 07:06:47 vy`` [n=user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has joined #lisp 07:06:50 -!- vy` [n=user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:07:25 cracki [n=cracki@43-055.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:09:43 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-8-126.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:15:05 morning 07:17:44 hello mvilleneuve 07:18:29 -!- vy`` is now known as vy 07:20:16 afternoon kids -- i think i've written a code walker for common lisp, it's very portable -- what have i done wrong? 07:20:57 it does a complete macroexpand that expands even macrolets and symbol-macrolets 07:22:57 Is it really portable? I hear that's where the difficulty lies. 07:23:10 can you explain what the difficulty is? 07:23:17 splittist [n=dmurray@87-110.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:23:23 i have tried it on lispworks, allegro, clozure cl and sbcl 07:23:56 sbcl needed some fiddling to break package locks and form named-lambda, and lispworks needed compiler-let, which is very scary, but it is 285 lines 07:24:21 Mostly that the implementation may provide its own special forms. But I agree that it should not be a problem since it should also provide equivalent macros reducing to standard special forms for the benefit of code walkers... 07:24:30 the fact that you mention only lispworks for compiler-let 07:24:42 , not allegro, which also has it, means that you already overlooked something 07:25:04 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 07:28:21 hi lichtblau http://www.franz.com/support/documentation/8.1/ansicl/subsecti/removedo.htm 07:28:43 the compiler-let was removed from allegro -- though it is still present as an unexported symbol in the excl:package 07:33:19 qlife [i=qlife@linux3.cs.nctu.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 07:33:46 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-238-188.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:34:09 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 07:34:39 iliitirit pasted "macroexpand-dammit" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83349 07:35:05 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-238-188.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 07:35:17 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-252-69.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:36:36 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 07:37:20 elderK [n=elderK@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:38:43 ASau [n=user@host159-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:40:02 ASau` [n=user@host158-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:41:50 -!- wubbster_ [n=wubb@doc-24-206-235-153.kw.tx.cebridge.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:42:53 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 07:43:28 aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:44:37 ilitirit: uhm, that's the ANSI spec, saying that it was removed from ANSI Common Lisp. 07:44:51 That Allegro has it anyway is precisely the issue. 07:45:36 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 07:46:44 -!- afgawgawe [n=oijerger@host250.190-224-109.telecom.net.ar] has left #lisp 07:47:06 But anyway: We never said that a reasonably portable code walking is impossible to write. In fact, we've been telling you for days now that others have already been there and done it. 07:47:49 Feel free to reimplement existing stuff all day if you think it's a useful learning exercise. NIH syndrome doesn't have to be a bad thing if you learn something on the way. 07:47:55 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:04 lichtblau, this is the first time i talked about it? 07:48:33 secondly this is the first one with augment-environment as far as i know -- i had the idea yesterday 07:48:42 -!- ASau [n=user@host159-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:48:53 ASau [n=user@host159-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:48:53 oh? In that case I'm confusing you with someone else who talked about his code walker here recently. It must be a popular task at the moment. 07:49:01 who was that? 07:49:30 demmel perhaps? 07:50:01 why is a code walker desirable? 07:50:34 ilitirit: sorry for confusing you. Too many nicks. 07:50:39 lichtblau, thanks for the correction on the compiler let issue -- it turns out that sb-ctlt2:compiler-let also exists 07:50:41 ilitirit: how does your augmentation support differ from what cl-walker has? 07:50:44 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:51:04 i don't do any augmentation, i transform the code to so that when you run it, it returns a macroexpanded version of itself 07:51:39 Ralith, the advantage of my system is that it gets rid of all symbol-macrolets and macrolets so that cl-cont has a chance 07:51:54 that doesn't answer my question :P 07:52:07 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 07:52:14 well macroexpand-all doesn't show what happens to macrolets -- i think it's useful to see how your macrolets actually expand 07:53:28 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:53:34 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:55:19 -!- jao [n=jao@52.Red-83-43-32.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:55:59 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@113.77.29.173] has joined #lisp 07:56:09 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 07:56:47 language lawyers around? 07:57:28 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 07:58:08 I'm interested in whether my blog on "Global Compiler Policy" is really correct. 07:59:07 specifically, can the effects of (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (declaim (optimize speed))) still persist after compile-file? 07:59:30 (the question is theoretical, I think) 08:00:27 I haven't read your blog. I think it can, because a compiler is free I think to have all global environments (compile-time, load-time, run-time) be the same 08:00:35 loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.32] has joined #lisp 08:02:15 an interpreter might 08:02:45 hmm. I looked up the row of the table in http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_bca.htm corresponding to (:compile-toplevel): 08:02:45 Yes No --- --- Evaluate --- 08:02:54 Evaluate: evaluate the body in the dynamic execution context of the compiler, using the evaluation environment as the global environment and the lexical environment in which the eval-when appears. 08:03:59 edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 08:04:00 and that's not entirely convincing. 08:04:44 -!- Pepe__ is now known as Pepe_ 08:06:30 if this is not correct then the only way I can see is to wrap the whole file in (locally (declaim (optimize speed)) ...). 08:06:55 mega1, you mean s/declaim/declare/ 08:07:03 no 08:07:52 how will the locally affect the declaim which is an (eval-when ... (proclaim ...)) 08:07:53 sorry, yes. 08:08:07 I can't read highlighted text. 08:08:59 (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (declaim (optimize speed)) is the same as (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (proclaim '(optimize speed))) i think 08:09:27 there is no reason why its effects should not permeate to load time, but no guarantee that they will either 08:13:05 bah, I hoped it's a better way. 08:13:07 ok, thanks 08:13:20 mega1, secondly i think your blog is wrong wrt allegro. there is no need for (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) ...) around the declaim to make it work at compile time 08:13:42 all the eval-when does is restrict it so it only works at compile time 08:13:45 it's for preventing the leakage of effect 08:14:03 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@113.77.29.173] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:14:20 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:14:41 mega1, you say "to ensure that the body is evaluated in the dynamic execution context of the compiler" 08:15:55 that's true, I think. It's just that it doesn't portably solve the issue of leaking declaims to the global env after compile-file. 08:16:25 it's not true, you don't need it as declaim already has an eval-when (:compile) inside it 08:16:28 ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 08:17:00 secondly (locally (declare ...) ...) only affects the lexical scope i think, whereas declaim/proclaim affect things outside the lexical scope 08:18:28 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:19:20 ilitirit: why do you think that declaim has an eval-when inside it? 08:19:43 when i macroexpand it, it has an eval-when inside it? ;) 08:19:50 come on 08:20:50 well it does on allegro 8.1, i checked before replying, which is what we were talking about i thought? 08:21:13 we are right now talking about the ansi spec 08:21:39 your blog said that on allegro it was necessary to wrap it in an eval when, i expanded it and checked that it was unnecessary 08:22:34 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:22:43 in the context of allegro, read what (explain-compiler-settings) says about this 08:23:05 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 08:23:10 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:56 also, you can verify the difference in behaviour easily 08:26:21 *ilitirit* is very surprised -- i will try it out 08:28:18 it's not so surprising as (EXCL::COMPILER-PROCLAIM '(OPTIMIZE SPEED)) in the macroexpansion also occurs without the eval-when 08:29:13 hi mega1 -- it seems the explain-compiler-settings is wrong at compile time 08:29:32 it works perfectly if you look at the disassembly 08:29:52 example? 08:30:56 ilitirit pasted "allegro 8.1 declaim is indeed standard conformant" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83353 08:31:13 ilitirit annotated #83353 "disassemblies proving this" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83353#1 08:32:27 if you want to talk about the standard, it says clearly: if a use of declaim appears at top level in a file processed by file compiler, then the proclamations are also made at compile time 08:33:04 so that if the (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) ..) were required then the compiler would be going against the spirit of the standard 08:33:51 let me say it again: the eval-when is need on allegro to prevent the declaim from affecting the global environment 08:34:19 yes mega1 i agreed with that before, but you said "to ensure that the body is evaluated in the dynamic execution context of the compiler" 08:35:16 allegro actually has an interesting bug where it ignores some optimize settings if they do not appear a the top level of the function, but of course the standard says it is free to optimize as it wishes 08:37:17 aquateen [n=chris@c-24-18-15-69.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:38:28 I'm pondering ordering a book. I've got all the popular Lisp books. Any suggestions on related books that could be interesting? 08:38:42 have you Let over Lambda by Doug Hoyte? 08:39:22 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-24-18-15-69.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:39:24 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:39:31 Nope. Bit sceptical since I read what Xach had to say about it, and reading parts of it myself. (not very idiomatic, nor useful, when you have On Lisp) 08:39:40 but do you think it's good? 08:40:36 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:40:36 it's true that it's a bit weird but it's interesting if you've already read the normal stuff 08:40:37 ilitirit: I was convinced half an hour ago that the my reading of the spec is wrong. As to "to ensure the body is evaluated in the dynamic execution context of the compiler" that should have been written as "to ensure that the body is _only_ evaluated ..." and be still wrong about the issue at hand. 08:41:05 ilitirit, ah. thanks! 08:41:41 tic, the freely available bits are very pedestrian, it's the later chapters that really explore some strange ideas (and plenty of code) 08:42:40 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:43:03 ilitirit, that would explain my own impression, then. 08:43:10 mega1, i don't understand your sentence :( -- i think the spec is clear: both :execute time and :compile-toplevel time 08:44:07 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-7-226.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:44:20 KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-10-213.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:44:54 tic, what was the bad review of it? do you have a link 08:45:38 my browser just died, but search reddit. 08:46:50 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-11-56.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:44 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-1228.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:49:33 tic, sorry for being retarded, i can't find it :( 08:50:13 not as much of a review as general comments, I'm afraid, but ... http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6kc4p/new_book_about_common_lisp_let_over_lambda/c043ego 08:52:04 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp154.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 08:52:33 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:52:45 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:53:28 yeah it makes a good point about the (function '(lambda(...)) thing but note that (funcall '(lambda (x) x) 1) is okay 08:53:32 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 08:54:16 earmuffs is a good point too. 08:54:21 (or the lack thereof) 08:55:13 yeah, the book isn't suitable for people who don't already know lisp or else they will be led to strange things ;) -- but earmuffs aren't actually wrong, just normal, and this book is not normal :) 08:55:49 Well, yes -- I meant just that: earmuffs are there for a reason, and his objections are wrong. 08:57:01 i like his frequent use of disassemblies and comparing to C as it keeps you grounded in reality 08:57:36 also his #0f reader macro is a little insane along the lines of dropping earmuffs ;) 08:57:53 Hm. Not too expensive. 08:59:05 imho one of the best (most scary?) bits is his defmacro! which automatically creates gensyms/once-only depending on the naming of variables, e.g. g!var or o!arg 09:00:12 archypetro [i=d51fac05@gateway/web/freenode/x-1b2894ca95f36133] has joined #lisp 09:00:36 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 09:02:24 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-10-213.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:08:59 vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 09:13:59 -!- ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:17:18 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 09:17:22 Sikander [n=soemraws@wirenat-eld.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has joined #lisp 09:21:57 lichtblau [n=user@77-22-106-191-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:25:29 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-215-139.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:29:18 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:29:32 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 09:31:29 -!- elderK [n=elderK@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [] 09:31:38 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 09:32:16 elderK [n=elderK@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:38:47 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 09:39:58 xan [n=xan@212.145.148.56] has joined #lisp 09:40:15 -!- xan [n=xan@212.145.148.56] has quit [Client Quit] 09:44:05 Maddas [n=Maddas@tardis-b23.ee.ethz.ch] has joined #lisp 09:46:20 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:50:01 -!- ASau [n=user@host159-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:50:06 ASau [n=user@host159-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 09:50:42 do you have to join the clbuild-devel ML to get your post approved? 09:50:52 -!- cracki [n=cracki@43-055.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:52:00 I'm pretty sure that you have to join, yes. The SPAM would be impossible to deal with otherwise. 09:52:18 alright. Guess I'll join and resend. Thanks :) 09:53:40 Not certain who the ML admin actually is (probably lukego) and whether he takes the time to approve quarantined mails (probably not). 09:54:20 I have been trying for years to opt-out of my mailing list admin reponsibilities but perhaps it hasn't worked 09:54:37 lol 09:54:47 no good deed goes unpunished 09:54:58 okay yes I seem to be clbuild-devel-owner. lichtblau, would you care to take over? 09:55:08 (is the list used?) 09:55:28 dear god, please, no. I have enough mailing lists to take care of already. 09:55:47 I resent the e-mail 09:55:52 so please ignore my first one :P 09:55:52 Ralith: well I made a kind of sudden exit from Lisp-maintainership roles when I joined a startup many years ago. didn't do a good job of handing things over to new people 09:57:00 The list is definitely being used, but not really by me. Every now and then I pull from the clbuild repo and am relieved to find out that others have merged the patches that I neglected. 09:57:59 with mudballs out, is clbuild what people use nowadays? 09:58:28 tic: I think clbuild never went out of vogue. 09:58:49 but it certainly seems like we're stuck with it for now. It sounded yesterday like asdf-install is getting some attention again, though. 09:59:13 not even asdf-instell ever really went out of vogue, so this is all just different people trying out different approaches 09:59:40 yeah 09:59:45 Yeah, just that one solution tends to be more updated. 09:59:46 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:00:05 clbuild seems to be more updated at the moment :\ 10:02:23 Ycros [n=ycros@gnaw.yi.org] has joined #lisp 10:02:28 hey lukego 10:02:32 when are you going to rejoin the lisp world? 10:02:34 slacker? 10:02:50 hey I'm very active in the lisp world, I drink beer at eclm every year! 10:03:27 and I'm staying on Juho's couch right now, though he's perhaps no better lisper than me these days :) 10:04:01 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:04:06 oh cool 10:04:26 how is everything with you on this fine sunny summer morning in europe? 10:04:50 -!- Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:05:17 Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 10:05:32 not bad 10:05:38 (not sunny in France, today) 10:05:47 I have finished marking exams for the year 10:08:44 are you coming to hamburg? 10:09:00 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:09:19 no 10:09:39 I will be having my very own mini eclm with Tim Moore 10:09:57 headed to Bordeaux with the family? 10:10:05 yeah 10:10:11 could be worse. :) 10:10:51 well quite 10:10:56 bet the food will be better :-) 10:11:25 we'll be thinking of you as we stumble drunkenly down the reepabarn :) 10:11:39 cracki [n=cracki@43-055.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:12:38 -!- qlife [i=qlife@linux3.cs.nctu.edu.tw] has left #lisp 10:13:25 `lhz [n=shrek@88.131.67.194] has joined #lisp 10:18:12 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:18:17 lukego: Not sunny in Poland, either. 10:18:42 you should all move immediately here to Zurich. it's lovely :) 10:19:34 Is there a way with ~G to output 'e' instead of 'f' or 'd' when it would print in exponent form? 10:20:16 I've looked at clhs format but couldn't find where to set the actual character 10:21:38 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 10:22:22 -!- vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:22:52 Right now, I'm printing to a string and replacing all occurrences of f, s and d with e... 10:23:09 But that doesn't seem to be very... nice... 10:23:36 -!- ajazz [n=ajazz@91.144.178.36] has quit ["Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de"] 10:24:49 -!- Guest48786 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 10:27:12 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.206.91] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:27:23 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 10:29:13 -!- ausente is now known as dalton 10:34:22 Sikander: (format t "~,,,,,,'eg~%" 1.243523458789789989f-10) 10:34:51 bad example number but that should work I think 10:36:18 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:37:07 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 10:37:21 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 10:38:18 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:38:35 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D5D8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:42:31 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 10:44:06 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:45:55 -!- mega1 [n=mega@pool-01a81.externet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:46:59 marocchino [i=d98568e1@gateway/web/freenode/x-3c91269671db8428] has joined #lisp 10:50:07 -!- marocchino [i=d98568e1@gateway/web/freenode/x-3c91269671db8428] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 10:50:41 lukego: ie. work for Google :)? 10:51:03 Actually it's clearing up here as well. No need to switch jobs. 11:06:43 yo lukego 11:06:47 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:07:17 howdy Xach :-) congrats on the fishing! 11:07:31 hey thanks 11:11:25 Xach: it's good to see you around again, btw 11:13:25 the Xach who commented out PCL as "dead sexy" ? wohoo ! :) 11:13:37 demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-087-162.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:17 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:15 "commented out", maybe not 11:15:32 edeion: because PCL indeed is drop dead sexy 11:17:04 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 11:19:24 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.206.91] has joined #lisp 11:20:52 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-12-30.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:21:37 12:05 < edeion> (not sunny in France, today) 11:21:58 edeion: the weather is actually quite nice here in Bordeaux, where are you located? 11:22:24 drafael: thanks (a bit late...) 11:23:46 Sikander: np :) 11:23:55 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:26:44 mvilleneuve: near Paris for now, but in Bordeaux tomorrow :) 11:27:35 -!- Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:27:49 Xof: I'm sorry, I realize I have lost most of my english... 11:28:10 (p_l: I totally agree about PCL) 11:32:29 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:32:31 *p_l* can't wait for sequel to PCL. And CLtL3 of course! 11:33:32 PCL2 - Rise of the Series? 11:34:19 lol 11:34:30 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 11:34:36 MPCL : More Practical CL. 11:34:46 RPCL: Really Pratical CL 11:34:56 TTOPCL: The Theory of Practical CL 11:35:16 EMPCL: Even More Practical CL 11:35:34 AWPEWPCL: Are We Practical Enough with PCL? 11:35:55 ... and finally PCL XXXIV THE RETURN> 11:35:58 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:23 *p_l* has urge to call TTCL to add some hot blood >_> 11:36:54 TAPOCL: Theory and Practice of Common Lisp. 11:37:30 So we've got some good TLAs in reserve for good books :-) 11:37:57 :) 11:39:47 I personally think TTCL, aka  or "Heaven-Piercing Common Lisp" tops it :P 11:44:09 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:45:08 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 11:46:19 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 11:50:33 blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 11:52:00 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:53:10 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:53:22 p_l: wouldn't the romanization be more "ka-man risupu"? 11:55:05 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:56:31 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:54 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-89-252.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:00:07 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:02:16 Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:49 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:04:18 When editing a .lisp file in Emacs in Lisp major and Slime minor mode how do I change the indentation for a loop-form? 12:05:31 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:17 aerique: 1) insert a newline after LOOP. 2) Select the loop and C-M-\ 12:08:13 From inside the loop, you can type A-up C-M-q (A-up being bound to up-list). 12:08:31 matimago: I should have been more clear, sorry :) By default it indents 2 spaces, I want to permanently change it to 5 spaces. 12:09:22 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp154.studby.uio.no] has quit [Client Quit] 12:09:32 Ah. Then you have to put a lisp-indent-function and/or common-lisp-indent-function property on the loop (and/or LOOP) symbol. 12:09:57 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:11:10 Ahrg, well, it seems this allow to change the kind of indentation, but not the number of columns... 12:11:41 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 12:12:15 *Fare* successfully bootstraps xcvb 0.329 with sbcl and in master with clisp. Yay! 12:12:29 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 12:13:04 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:13:36 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:13:41 danlei [n=user@pD9E2DF5A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:42 aerique: customize the variables lisp-loop-keyword-indentation lisp-loop-forms-indentation and lisp-simple-loop-indentation 12:13:45 Fare, builds itself now? 12:14:16 (or what is bootstrapping about) 12:15:02 rlb3 [n=rlb@70-138-117-197.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:25 matimago: that works, thanks! not sure how i missed it 12:15:40 Jasko3 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:56 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Success] 12:15:59 aerique: Would you please share what you have in those variables now? 12:16:14 I'd set them to 5 and 9 and 5. 12:16:21 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:16:24 thx 12:16:25 antoszka: 6, although i haven't done the simple one yet 12:16:26 Since I write :do 12:17:56 -!- Kirklander [n=Kirkland@216.93.247.56] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:18:01 tic: yes it does 12:18:32 cracki_ [n=cracki@43-055.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:18:49 and dumps a makefile that can be used to compile xcvb without outside help 12:18:59 Neato. 12:19:13 I mean, without help from a currently running xcvb on your machine 12:19:19 Yeah. 12:19:33 did you decide on a definition file yet? 12:19:36 otherwise, there'd be a chicken-and-egg problem in distributing the sources 12:19:43 you mean build.xcvb ? 12:19:51 so that's it then. sounds good. 12:20:11 I'm slowly getting used to it, after a year of BUILD.lisp 12:20:22 Very wise choice, I think. 12:20:49 ah, is xcvb actually out now? 12:21:42 jkantz [n=jkantz@63.107.91.99] has joined #lisp 12:22:42 -!- rlb3 [n=rlb@70-138-117-197.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:22:58 rlb3 [n=rlb@70-138-117-197.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:34 rsynnott, there's a working release on the web site 12:23:40 though it's beta quality 12:23:49 and the API is somewhat subject to change 12:23:56 -!- rlb3 [n=rlb@70-138-117-197.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:24:11 (but not too much) 12:24:24 there's also a big TODO file if you want to help! 12:26:23 -!- Swords2 is now known as Swordsman 12:27:18 Fare: are you syncing to the TODO doc on common-lisp.net? (You mention the June release ETA there, too) 12:27:51 splittist, once in a while 12:28:06 there, just did it 12:28:20 I plead Hofstadter's Law. 12:28:35 Ah - I just noticed the third top Todo: "Revise documentation, including this very file." (: 12:28:43 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-194.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:45 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-170-242.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:30:29 ejs [n=eugen@127-26-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:16 heh 12:31:23 I try to keep it reasonably up to date 12:31:40 since it's the file I use as my actual TODO list when there isn't a bug right in my face. 12:31:46 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:32:54 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:13 *Fare* tremendously enjoys the fact that bootstrapping means he can use a rich set of Lisp libraries while building xcvb, and not care about incestuous builder-target self-modifications as with ASDF. 12:33:30 is there a way to shorten something like (lambda (a b) ...) to (foo ...) ? 12:33:43 Actually, one of the first thing I do in the bootstrapped build is kill ASDF, then replace with a new one. 12:33:58 drafael: yes, it's called defun 12:34:39 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 12:34:54 hah. no, I want lots and lots of lambda functions which are stored in slots and accessed as required 12:35:06 How much RAM do I need for sbcl? 12:35:13 -!- blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:35:21 all with different bodies but which accept the same arguments and use the same names for said arguments 12:35:35 schme: say 64MB for running w/o swap 12:35:38 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:35:48 hmm not more eeh. 12:35:55 That's great, thanks Fare. 12:35:58 more is better 12:36:01 Now also how do I build sbcl without sbcl? 12:36:03 -!- cracki [n=cracki@43-055.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:36:13 schme: you can bootstrap from clisp or ccl 12:36:21 probably other lisps, too 12:36:22 hmm.. I guess it's clisp then. 12:36:28 great. Time to get crackin' then. 12:36:41 get a recent clisp & sbcl ... there have been bugs in the past 12:37:09 should build from cmucl, too 12:37:19 schme: are you targetting for a platform for which there is no binary? 12:37:24 rsynnott: Yes. 12:37:29 drafael: you could write a macro 12:37:29 what platform is that? 12:37:36 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp154.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 12:37:38 hmm, didn't someone mention a weird problem with building sbcl on clisp recently? 12:37:58 Fare: I plan to start banging my head against porting sbcl to ARM. 12:38:01 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:38:03 where the maximum array size was clisp-fixnum-sized rather than sbcl fixnum or something 12:38:05 demmel: I tried, but referring to the variables doesn't work for me 12:38:16 how come? 12:38:18 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:38:27 rsynnott, probably... Xof fixed it recently, but it bitrots fast and if you're not using the very same versions as he did, there might be issues 12:38:51 schme, congratulations! Note that nyef may have tips for you. 12:39:03 drafael: is it always (lambda (a b) ...) or does the parameter list change? 12:39:07 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 12:39:15 drafael pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83357 12:39:17 schme: there's a big scary doc onthe subject here: http://www.lisphacker.com/projects/sbcl-arm/port-log.txt 12:39:18 Fare: Cools. I'll keep that in mind. 12:39:22 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 12:39:29 I'd recommend first building with same version of clisp on a PC, just to double check 12:39:31 rsynnott: That sounds bad. I'll give it a read :) 12:39:35 demmel: that's what I tried 12:39:37 i.e. build clisp from source 12:39:47 use same source on arm afterwards 12:39:51 this will qualify your clisp 12:40:14 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-12-30.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:40:29 drafael: (defmacro foo (&body body) `(lambda (a b) ,@body)) 12:40:55 *rsynnott* wonders would ccl be a better arm port target 12:41:06 rsynnott: Hey this is great stuff. 12:41:12 they seem to have had generally better results in keeping things like threads going reliably across platforms 12:41:13 the log :) 12:41:13 *Fare* loves reproducibility. Pure functional programming, I love you! 12:41:26 drafael: that doesn't seem like a very good idea in practice, though. i prefer explicit, visible bindings for variables. (lambda (a b) ...) provides that pretty well. 12:41:29 rsynnott, quite possibly. 12:41:31 rouslan [n=Rouslan@pool-71-161-65-117.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:31 schme: it's not mine; I just came across it and thought it was interesting awhile back 12:41:45 drafael: But you must be aware that a and b is bound in the body. 12:41:46 so added it to my huge collection of interesting stuff to read at some point :) 12:41:47 seems active and all 12:42:09 demmel: I still get ; undefined variable: SELF when attempting to use it 12:42:23 drafael: yeah see what Xach writes 12:42:40 drafael: what would SELF be? 12:42:56 the first argument to the lambda 12:43:23 drafael: maybe post some code at lisppaste 12:43:46 drafael: are you maybe working in different packages 12:43:53 Xach: yes, that's true, but there will be a LOT of these written 12:44:06 rsynnott: Maybe ccl is better and/or easier to port. You might be correct. I was planning to dive into this to learn more about sbcl internals really. Might as well learn more about ccl internals instead. 12:44:10 hmm 12:44:12 oh! good point 12:44:33 drafael: that doesn't sound like a justifying condition 12:44:42 schme: I'm not sure either way, to be honest 12:44:50 Anyone aware of a native CL package for performing boolean operations on polygons? 12:44:55 drafael: you can use your editor to some of the writing work, and not make the reading work harder 12:45:13 (: 12:46:06 Mazingaro [n=tetsuja@host29-230-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:46:34 I suppose.. It would be nice to provide an easy way of making such functions though as it's intended to be a library and it relies upon them heavily 12:47:25 drafael: If its public API I'd be even more careful. 12:47:37 drafael, maybe what you need is a reader-macro for a short-hand to lambdas 12:47:39 aerique: hmm, i think ramarren might have something for that 12:47:46 maybe you want the unicode lambda :) 12:47:57 define-drafael-function (arg1 arg2) ? 12:48:35 ah, solved - it was a packaging issue after all 12:48:38 aerique: though i don't immediately see it at http://github.com/Ramarren 12:48:53 Fare: How is a reader macro better> 12:48:58 aerique: oh! cl-geometry 12:48:58 the macro is defined in a different package 12:49:51 Fare: that's a slippery slope that leads to APL 12:49:53 drafael: If the user of your library is supposed to use that macro, he is always gonna work in a different package 12:50:18 rsynnott: APL? 12:50:26 yay for APL! 12:50:34 demmel: yep 12:50:38 you have to export the magic variable names. 12:50:44 APL is too long a name. Should be replaced by a single obscure unicode character 12:50:55 that's what I'm doing :) 12:50:59 How about 'snowman'? 12:51:02 Xach: oh that's awesome, thanks a lot. it never showed up on Google for me and writing this myself was taking too much time away from my primary project 12:51:39  ftw! 12:51:46 drafael: could you paste some examples? 12:51:54 Zhivago, is it an APL operator? 12:52:07 If not, it ought to be. 12:52:57 Xach: what do you want examples of? It's all working now 12:52:59 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:53:02 -!- dalton [n=user7994@187.35.196.144] has quit ["Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de"] 12:53:34 just needed to export the variable names from the package 12:54:29 blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has joined #lisp 12:54:40 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:46 thanks for the help all :) 12:55:11 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:05 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 12:56:21 These funny smileys are valid APL operators:   12:57:07 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:57:13 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.51.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:59:06 Hmm, how are German banks these days? Collapsing? 12:59:52 propped up with fake euros 13:00:10 Ah, still in denial about the demise of the $US. :) 13:00:20 someone keeps printing euros. Zillions of them. But we haven't caught the counterfeiter yet. 13:01:14 A German owes me a bunch of money and I was considering having it put into a German bank. 13:01:38 get NZD 13:01:56 The Pacific Peso makes its return! 13:01:57 What's so good about NZD (apart from plastic banknotes)? 13:01:58 I'm in NZ :o 13:02:00 Fare: they're no doubt due a good collapse anyway 13:02:06 Zhivago: up to 20.000E you're money is insured 13:02:09 drafael: Whereabouts? 13:02:09 new zealand seems safer -- only country where the head of gov understands economics a bit 13:02:13 Auckland 13:02:14 Zhivago: what's your home country? Do you have anything sturdier than the euro? 13:02:18 silenius: Interesting. 13:02:18 Fare: I don't think so. 13:02:22 central central auckland 13:02:23 Zhivago: otherwise - use multiple accounts =) 13:02:26 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-54-62.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 13:02:34 otherwise -- there's XAU 13:02:40 or go for a european country with a high rate of guarantee 13:03:03 rsynnott: Well, I also have a bunch of euro kicking about that I should put somewhere. 13:03:06 (Ireland is vaguely claiming to guarantee ALL deposits, but I don't think I believe it) 13:03:08 schoppenhaue1 [n=senjak@host136.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:03:10 silenius, you're insured to have 20.000E -- not that the 20.000 will be worth anything 13:03:15 -!- schoppenhaue1 [n=senjak@host136.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 13:03:25 actually, I seem to remember a guarantee system with raboplus here 13:03:26 Fare: true enough 13:03:33 Fare: but otoh - it's only money anyway 13:03:35 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:03:46 I should pick up some Yuan. 13:03:59 if the USD and EUR go the way of ZWD... 13:04:04 Fare: that's risky; if there's a sudden recovery then gold may suffer greatly 13:04:19 "if" 13:04:30 (in 1980, gold fell sharply, and didn't recover until 2006) 13:04:34 Zhivago: KPW, surely ... 13:04:40 drafael: My dad lives in Auckland, been visiting him recently. 13:04:42 and if you take inflation into account, STILL has not recovered 13:04:46 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:04:51 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 13:04:52 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:05:15 there's always the currency of the rich non-euro-zone EU nations 13:05:31 (denmark and sweden and so on; they might be okay) 13:05:43 While North Korea is posting increased production of potato rice, I don't think it's a good long term investment. 13:05:45 .oO(the only safe investment is into me) 13:05:48 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 13:05:51 antoszka: ah, I see. I wonder how many kiwis there are that know lisp 13:06:06 drafael: an example of your working syntax in action 13:06:40 Zhivago, you trust north korean official statistics? 13:06:49 Xach: well, a completely useless example would be (make-fn (format t "~a ~a~%" self target)) 13:07:04 Well, I tend to trust the Chinese ones first. 13:07:06 North Korea posted increased production of slave bodies, that I would believe 13:07:14 drafael: right. that seems like a big loss over lambda. i am looking to see if it is somehow mitigated in real usage. 13:07:26 Fare: also, low-end atom bombs 13:07:45 drafael: Probably not many, judging by the size of the whole population. Unless it turns out that sheep exhibit unusual Lisp programming talents :) 13:07:46 and mid range missiles 13:07:56 Xach: yeah, I might go back to lambda actually - this seems more trouble than it's worth tbh 13:07:56 and dictators with funny hair 13:08:01 (given that Russia and the US just agreed to throw away another few hundred of those, the market value will probably not be good :) ) 13:08:08 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:22 antoszka: heheh indeed 13:08:23 Fare: well, mid-range missiles which don't work, yes 13:08:28 I suspect that NK is relatively close to having its leadership collapse -- the next few years should be interesting. 13:08:30 rsynnott, actually, if the supply decreases, the price will go up 13:09:20 -!- elderK [n=elderK@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:09:21 Zhivago, did you read about the now heir trying to get his elder half-brother assassinated on chinese ground? 13:09:26 Zhivago: nah, as long as the Jong Il replacement is vaguely credible, they'll take him 13:09:28 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-86-153.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:09:29 Fare: Yes. 13:09:30 Zhivago: I thought there was another Kim on the horizon (another Swiss-trained one) 13:09:42 rsynnott: anything that's ever experienced a brief bubble is prone to the "foo fell sharply in the distant past and only just recovered" though. looks like 1980 was a bubble driving the price of gold up stupidly high, and if you look at '78 or '82 instead then it looks much more reasonable over time 13:10:13 Il Sung was actually quite competent compared to Jong Il 13:10:23 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:31 lukego: yep, but before the 80s the pattern was more or less duplicated 13:10:38 competent -- but at what? At ruthlessly killing his way to power, certainly 13:10:46 where's wnewman when we want a serious economics discussion? 13:11:11 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:11:13 reminds me of that AI researcher who made a fortune at the stock market in the 1980s then went to the mental hospital 13:11:13 A reasonably competent guerilla, iirc. 13:11:17 Xach: the functions are stored in objects, and passed theirselves as the first argument and a target object as the second 13:11:19 next time there is peace and serenity throughout the world, remind me to buy a bar of gold 13:11:22 Fare: well, at running the country; not nice, but competent. The food problems and so on only really started after he went. My point is that they are apparently willing to put up with anything 13:11:28 elderK [n=elderK@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 13:11:34 it makes sense to me in that context at least 13:12:08 lukego's going to bury his wealth in the Swiss alps anyway... 13:12:21 lukego, what are you hacking on these days? 13:12:27 the permanent drop in gold value there was greater in magnitude than the great depressing in term of percentage value lost; it makes the whole gold thing look VERY risky 13:12:39 rys: A bit like Cuba with the additional cost of a DMZ and long land border. 13:12:41 *rsynnott* just continues to rely on the Irish government's dubious bank guarantees :) 13:12:52 Fare: most recently writing some firmware drivers for olpc. currently hacking visas and immigration etc moving back to europe :) 13:13:01 is the olpc still alive? 13:13:06 Zhivago: well, and no economic or social reform whatsoever 13:13:40 rsy: I think that's an oversimplification. 13:14:08 yes. as a laptop-maker OLPC is running quite healthily. they're going to ship XO-1.5 in a few months and there are already plenty of customers waiting to order it. as a "change the whole world overnight, make all computers open-source, tear down school as we know it, bring internet to all corners of the earth, etc" project, not so much 13:14:14 there has been some economic refore very lately, but not that much 13:14:32 juche is highly complex, after all... 13:14:45 lukego, what's new in 1.5 ? 13:14:59 (which would fit in with following China's approach; allow increase in prosperity but retain total social control) 13:15:02 lukego, it wasn't overnight, it was going to take a couple of years 13:15:04 Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:15:08 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 13:15:13 jmbr [n=jmbr@162.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 13:15:18 (as opposed to glastnost, which was supposed to be the opposite, but didn't work out that wy) 13:15:44 Fare: 1.5 is basically a refresh to redo 1.0 using whatever the most price-efficient components are today. so basically it's the same laptop but with a faster VIA CPU, more RAM, more flash, etc. 13:16:30 same screen? 13:16:34 it's an interesting project, that 13:16:45 Fare: details are public if you want more. I got a trip to Taipei to help out with the "bringup" at Quanta - the olpc guys are very cool and friendly 13:17:06 I think it will be one of Pixel Qi's new screens. I haven't seen it with my own eyes though. the XO 1.5 that I have is just a bare motherboard 13:17:23 -!- ejs [n=eugen@127-26-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:17:24 ok 13:17:36 is the FORTH guy still working for them? 13:17:43 Mitch Bradley - yep 13:17:57 I wonder will they keep going with their own software 13:18:14 is the OS now WinCE or some such? 13:18:28 the hardware aspect of it is clearly pretty unique, but it's less clear that they need their own OS 13:18:30 they will ship Fedora on the 1.5. the custom desktop (Sugar) has spun off separately, and it will reach OLPC via bundling in upstream Fedora 13:19:22 drafael pasted "Example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83359 13:19:27 Xach: ^^ 13:19:28 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:19:47 Fare: how about you -- are you in europe now or back in Boston? still hacking at ITA? 13:20:28 heh, the wiki article has a photo captioned "Students showing an XO to a local monk." - the monk looks rather perplexed 13:21:05 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.51.25] has joined #lisp 13:21:22 Fare: I'm going to a wedding in Toronto in the second week of august, look forward to grabbing a beer if I manage to pass through boston on the way :) 13:21:27 TDT [i=dthole@dhcp80ff869b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 13:21:55 I might be back from France then 13:22:14 still at ITA, going to France Jul23->Aug07 13:22:51 -!- demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-087-162.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 13:23:25 -!- TDT [i=dthole@dhcp80ff869b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 13:23:36 as the XO gets more memory and better screen, custom OS becomes less necessary -- but may still have interesting security / pedagogy features 13:23:50 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@43-055.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 13:24:27 I wonder if something like sugar would be hard to develop for google-os. 13:25:06 well, Google haven't really revealed what 'ChromeOS' IS in any detail yet... 13:25:13 ejs [n=eugen@127-26-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:41 it's just a web browser on dedicated hardware isn't it? 13:25:47 I get a vague implication from what's been said that it's some sort of locked down HTML/JS based thing like a palm pre, but I may be wrong 13:25:54 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 13:25:55 Just a cut-down linux kernel running chrome. 13:26:12 Zhivago: that was my impression. 13:26:20 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.206.91] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:26:30 I don't know why people feel the need to declare "microsoft warrrr!!!!11" about it 13:26:57 Well, something like that, I hope. 13:27:32 what are they going to let developers do with it, though? 13:27:44 write webapps lolol 13:27:47 Nothing, hopefully. 13:28:00 drafael: didn't work too well for Apple ;) 13:28:13 But, given the native code extension ... 13:28:24 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-103-42.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:28:32 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:38 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:28:38 -!- archypetro [i=d51fac05@gateway/web/freenode/x-1b2894ca95f36133] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 13:28:59 Zhivago, what's cut-down about the kernel? I thought it was the userland being cutdown 13:29:25 r1nu- [n=debian@ppp-94-68-97-128.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 13:29:30 -!- r1nu- [n=debian@ppp-94-68-97-128.home.otenet.gr] has left #lisp 13:29:31 can't see how they can be serious about the native code extension and ARM/x86 agnosticism at the same time 13:29:38 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 13:29:44 cmm: fat binaries 13:29:51 cmm, fat binaries? source-code recompilation? 13:29:57 I'll be happy if it's cheap, long battery and light with built in mobile broadband anyway 13:30:02 AFAIK Apple doesn't have a patent on them 13:30:16 and if they did it would be expired now anyway 13:30:20 Fare: I misspoke -- I should have said installation. 13:30:23 but the "JS machine with HTML support" aspect of it all sounds... interesting 13:30:35 cmm: they're presumably aiming for portable code wherever possible, native otherwise 13:30:47 oh, right, fat binaries 13:30:57 which makes sense, and tends to do better than a pure fat binary approach 13:30:58 *Fare* prefers slim binaries 13:31:00 The birth of the javascript machine :) 13:31:11 (they're also allowing ARM native code on Android now) 13:31:14 or fit binaries 13:31:19 Fare: I think the main features of the XO are ruggedness (tough, water resistent, tollerant of wide DC power inputs, ...) and reuthless dedication to low price 13:31:24 we'll see how they'll manage to prevent everything going in the "another linux distro" direction, then :) 13:31:49 lukego, wasn't THAT low, last time. 13:32:06 it was decent. 13:32:13 it's the dedication that counts! 13:32:49 its being non-fussy about power, in particular, makes it usable in places where a standard netbook simply wouldn't be 13:33:02 *rsynnott* wounders will they put in lithium-polymer batteries this time 13:33:05 Fare: it was as low as they could make it though -- i.e. they really optimised for price and resisted feature-creeping up to a higher price 13:33:19 Fare: but it's true - I suppose it's ruggedness that really does set it apart. 13:33:25 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp154.studby.uio.no] has quit [Client Quit] 13:33:34 right like the keyboard. 13:34:38 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@87-110.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["biab"] 13:36:03 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 13:36:28 TDT [i=dthole@dhcp80ff869b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 13:36:35 the keyboard was the suck 13:36:44 ugh, I can't believe how much of a pain cl-mpi was to setup, but finally got it setup! 13:36:45 had to take it apart to unstick it 13:36:54 TDT: was it worth it? 13:36:59 jan247 [n=jan247@120.28.131.253] has joined #lisp 13:37:32 Fare: TBH, not sure yet...I didn't run much else than just "hello world". Doing it mostly to learn...I hope to contact the developer to ask for his help in creating a tutorial so others can get this working. 13:37:54 -!- Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 13:38:02 dv_ [n=dv@85.127.117.37] has joined #lisp 13:38:35 I'm half thinking that there's a bug in the code, which I'll create a patch tonight and send to him as well. Outside that, it's pretty cool so far I gotta admit. I'd like to try getting this to work with multiple machines soon (right now just using MPI on localhost) 13:41:42 *Fare* still wants a semi-portable run-program with arbitrary fd redirects, etc. 13:42:28 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:28 I suppose that'd be my next big project... 13:42:42 What's an fd redirect? 13:42:50 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-12-30.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:43:16 -!- delYsid [n=user@debian/developer/mlang] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:44:12 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:44:17 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:36 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 13:48:39 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 13:49:05 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:06 grep | foo > bar 2>&1 13:50:24 Do the mcclim guru's here also read mcclim-devel? Would it be considered rude to ask a question here again when I already posted it on mcclim-devel? 13:52:34 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has joined #lisp 13:54:30 luis: ping 13:54:40 How will google avoid a lawsuite for bundling its browser with its OS? Will the allow IE on their OS? 13:55:00 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.206.91] has joined #lisp 13:55:22 matimago, by not bundling an OS with their browser 13:55:29 matimago: as Google doesn't have an effective monopoly position in operating systems, it shouldn't be a problem 13:55:40 How unfair! :-) 13:55:48 they have a monopoly position in search engine 13:55:59 they definitely have a monopoly position in the Google brand 13:55:59 Nah. 13:56:01 So let me restate. 13:56:02 note that chrome allows you to use other default search engines than google 13:56:06 Well, the last one, yes. 13:56:15 sue! sue! sue! 13:56:17 and they don't have a true monopoly on search, though they are heading for it 13:56:18 Google isn't the leading search engine everywhere. 13:56:31 How will google avoid a lawsuite for bundling an OS with its browser? Will they allow Chrome to run on Linux? 13:56:40 they have a monopoly at my home. Sue! Sue! Sue! 13:56:43 Zhivago: globally they probably have a simply majority at least 13:57:10 There's a linux port of chrome. 13:57:29 Adamant: China is pretty big, so is Russia. 13:57:30 they're even working on the OS X port 13:57:45 Zhivago: yeah, but Google is like #2 in China 13:57:45 I thought 13:57:48 yep, they could probably be said to have an effective search monopoly in Europe 13:57:57 definitely in North America 13:58:00 demmel [n=demmel@94.216.87.162] has joined #lisp 13:58:02 probably in South America too 13:58:03 but not in China or Russia, and not even really in the US, where people still use yahoo 13:58:13 And AU and NZ. 13:58:18 Adamant: yahoo still has a surpisingly large share of the search market in the US 13:58:27 rsynnott: they're pretty close to 80% here if not over 13:58:35 But you should check out their marketshare in South Korea. :) 13:58:38 (and, bizarrely, more people use Yahoo Mail than gmail) 13:58:58 Zhivago: is that actually Yahoo, though? Yahoo Japan certainly isn't 13:59:15 In South Korea? No. It's Naver and Daum. 13:59:24 they have an effective monopoly in search engines the name of which starts with a G 13:59:26 Naver is also expanding into Japan. 14:00:08 Hey. Does anyone know what ever became of the ILC2009 videos? ( http://ilc2009.scheming.org/node/15 ) 14:00:49 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:00:58 I know I'm going to be crucified for saying this, but Bing actually is pretty nice in some respects. 14:01:18 It's cute, but annoying, imho. 14:01:27 I just don't think it's a big enough leap over Google anywhere but multimedia search. 14:01:41 -!- ejs [n=eugen@127-26-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:01:50 I know, I know, queue the "porn mode" jokes 14:02:11 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 14:02:16 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:02:18 It was fun to make safari crash when playing multiple "thumbnail" previews at the same time 14:02:48 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:02:49 I was wondering what was Bing :D 14:03:51 edeion: the latest revamp of microsoft's search thing 14:04:06 (at least it's a less stupid name than Windows Live search...) 14:04:28 rsynnott: yes, I remembered it after a few secs 14:04:45 rsynnott: but thanks ! :) 14:05:48 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@120.28.131.253] has quit [] 14:06:59 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:08:03 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 14:09:08 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 14:10:36 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-65.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:11:02 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:11:49 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-121.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 14:13:49 Kirklander [n=Kirkland@c-24-147-235-44.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:01 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-121.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 14:15:45 abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@conference/gcds/x-911dd7fc05ccdb1b] has joined #lisp 14:16:14 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@84.75.21.37] has joined #lisp 14:17:38 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 14:22:15 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@84-75-21-37.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:22:39 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 14:26:51 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85.127.117.37] has quit ["Verlassend"] 14:29:02 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.51.25] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:31:01 does anyone know of any effort in the direction of writing a compatibility layer for environment access in Common Lisp (what could be called "trivial-environments")? The API should probably be based on whats in CLTL2, but also include functions to introspect environments. I found a presentation of Duane Rettig from 2005, talking about such a thing (primaritly for ACL, but also as a defacto standard). I have no idea what became of it though and ACL 8 seems to d 14:33:35 -!- ASau [n=user@host159-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:37:40 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 14:38:58 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:39:12 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 14:40:22 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 14:40:41 meingbg_ [n=user@static-195.84.249.117.addr.tdcsong.se] has joined #lisp 14:41:25 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:41:27 How can I know if it's OK to use GPL libraries in a proprietary system? 14:42:02 don't redistribute your system 14:42:13 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:14 talk to a lawyer 14:42:18 davazp [n=user@79.153.148.56] has joined #lisp 14:42:46 um, read the GPL license, talk to a lawyer, and have a look at why CLISP is under the GPL and see if that kind of tactics floats your boat. 14:42:51 -!- jewel_ is now known as jewel 14:47:35 um... so none of you have any experience doing this sort of thing? I'm not in the U.S., so I won't sue you for sharing your opinion. 14:47:38 Hi. 14:48:17 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:48:32 meingbg_: I thought the idea was that if you link with GPL libraries then your whole thing must go GPL. 14:48:35 willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 14:49:03 GPL sucks. 14:49:30 meingbg_: So as long as you use GPL on your proprietary software all is well. 14:49:52 athos: GPL is great! 14:49:54 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.51.25] has joined #lisp 14:50:00 -!- vy [n=user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:50:07 i don't like it ;-) 14:50:10 meingbg_: LGPL is around for just this reason. 14:50:13 chris2 [n=chris@p5B169C69.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:50:13 athos: its the license that gives the most choices to users and vendors. 14:50:22 schme: LGPL forbids static linking 14:50:28 matimago: no. 14:50:32 athos: I see. 14:50:33 matimago: that's BSD 14:50:35 splittist [n=dmurray@85.5.55.63] has joined #lisp 14:50:38 re 14:50:46 athos: Well atleast it's more free than GPL in the matter of linking :) 14:50:48 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:51:00 schme: hehe 14:51:11 sorry, i didn't mean to start a license war :P 14:51:13 athos: if a vendor wants to incorporate my GPL library, he has the choice between doing so and giving his sources to his users, OR not using my GPL library and keeping the sources for himself, OR giving me money to have a proprietary license. 14:51:18 just wanted to present some counter-weigth 14:51:19 ;-) 14:51:33 matimago: still BSD gives you more choices, period 14:51:33 ;-) 14:51:43 matimago: and he has all those options and more with BSD/PD. 14:51:48 I had no idea about the static linking. It was a good piece of knowledge. 14:51:49 Yep. 14:51:55 I will use it next time I need to bash the GPL ;) 14:51:58 athos: No commercial vendor will even choose to pay the copyright holder of a BSD code. 14:52:00 ! :D 14:52:01 ever 14:52:20 and that is with /full intent/ if you BSD license your code. there is no hidden agenda. 14:52:30 The idea is to spread good code around ;) 14:52:32 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 14:52:45 "oh no. microsoft stole the network code" 14:52:56 for lisp-appropriate LGPL, see LLGPL 14:53:02 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:53:03 GPL is about politics, BSD is about "spreading good code around", as schme said 14:53:08 phf [n=phf@146.145.38.2] has joined #lisp 14:53:15 obviously, evidently, there is more freedom in BSD code than GPL for pretty everyone, completely and utterly ignoring RMS redefintion of "free". 14:53:26 GPL is a lever to "spread MORE code around". 14:53:33 the dual-license GPL/commercial model is quite common, but hasn't worked out that well for everyone 14:53:35 GPL is politics. 14:53:37 matimago: not necessarily 14:53:48 rsynnott: I've been wondering if the Gnu Classpath licence isn't a better fit (if you want something GPLish) 14:53:58 i don't like programs that are about politics 14:54:01 rsynnott: Worked out well for the mysql people didn't it? 14:54:16 for instance, say I'm writing a commercial app. I could take someone's BSD-licensed app and use it, and voluntarily contribute fixes back 14:54:18 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 14:54:41 *lib 14:54:48 but I couldn't use a GPL lib at all 14:55:15 schme: almost all of their business was support, custom stuff and complimentary products 14:55:16 and most likely you could use whatever 'commercial' lib is out there :) 14:55:18 willb2 [n=wibenton@173.18.243.255] has joined #lisp 14:55:19 -!- loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.32] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:55:31 dunno how that makes GPL == freedom 14:55:31 Hi schme. 14:55:39 the original developer can still get money from his code, because the vendor might contact him about whether you could support them/offer more documentation/stuff like that 14:55:45 bob_f: hey bob_f . We are bashing the GPL !! :) 14:55:50 Hooray ! 14:55:57 (InnoDB backup thingy, though I think that was actually licensed from Oracle, and the MySQL management console, which is actually brilliant and worth the money if you use MySQL) 14:55:58 Did I tell you I recently decided I hate GPL code ? 14:55:58 it's just bullshit, that GPL == money 14:56:03 gcv [n=gcv@67.97.51.195] has joined #lisp 14:56:07 bob_f: No. I thought you loved it. 14:56:21 I did, and then I realised it was mean. 14:56:24 ok. All of a sudden it seems I must switch to loving the GPL :( 14:56:28 GPL maximize the spread of free (as in freedom) code and more freedom to users, BSD maximize freedom of use for *coders* 14:56:29 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:56:47 No. 14:56:47 It causes trouble for the people I care about (i.e. open source devs) and doesn't do anything to prevent big companies from profiting from it. 14:56:48 big problem with the GPL seems to be that GPL libs simply can't be used in a whole swathe of things 14:56:57 obviously code is no free per se 14:57:07 GPL is forcing you to put your derivative work under GPL again 14:57:10 (unless there's a GPL/commercial dual license situation) 14:57:12 Even if it did, it'd still be directly pissing people off. So I jumped ship and changed my philosophies and retracted anything I ever said about it. 14:57:17 that's not about free as in freedom 14:57:21 freedom is a such a funny word. In swedish politics we have the leftist saying they're for freedom and the right wingers hate it. While the right wingers say the opposite. Seems the same with gpl. 14:57:47 When talking about choosing a copyright statement for your own code, it doesn't matter much because you can always change it down the road since you are the copyright holder. The only time to worry about copyright is in the case of the original question, is it compatible with what I want to do. As already said, you probably should talk to a lawyer. 14:58:00 forcing others to gpl their derivative work *is* politics 14:58:13 it's about this crappy idea, that this may lead to a better world [...] 14:58:21 athos: the effects are that there is more free code for users (beacause coders are givnig up some freedom to close the source) 14:58:21 bob_f: I found some AMAZING water melons. 14:58:58 schme: no, freedom about free software is a well defined concept 14:59:03 rstandy: no, in fact users get more limited 14:59:13 So.. am I to understand this right with "GPL making more free code available".. then without the GPL all BSD code would suddenly vanish from the face of the earth? 14:59:17 rstandy: IIRC it was clisp which got gpl'ed because it used to use readline 14:59:23 athos: code is law :-) 14:59:50 rstandy: It's not a well defined concept. FSF uses one definition, others use other definition. 14:59:56 athos: that is correct. and the RMS-exchange is shipped with clisp. i find that utterly discussting. 15:00:06 -!- ASau` [n=user@host158-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 15:00:15 (not that it's beeing shipped with CLISP, but the mail exchange) 15:00:16 But the argument that it makes more free code availible is messed up. People open sourced code before the GPL. 15:00:19 Yes, it really sin't well defined. 15:00:23 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:00:47 The thing that swung it for me is: the *only* thing that happens if I use GPL over BSD/MIT is I piss off more open source devs with GPL. 15:00:56 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@nmd.sbx07476.centeva.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:01 hypno: interestingly, it is probably not an argument which would be accepted today, and there are non-gpl things using readline 15:01:14 bob_f: indeed 15:01:20 schme: it's a license to protects users freedom, not necessarily coders freedom 15:01:26 jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 15:01:27 and in practice people are far less likely to use and/or contribute to your library 15:01:29 using readline is nowhere derivative work 15:01:37 (at least concerning my definition of that;) 15:01:40 and it proved to be extremely good at that 15:01:47 Heh, no it didn't. 15:01:56 it does mean that someone can make money out of your library, so if that's a problem for you then use GPL 15:02:01 but otherwise, no obvious reason 15:02:12 Eh, they can make money out of it if it's GPL. 15:02:16 rstandy: BSD "protects the user" just as much. Anyway the whole protecting thing is crazy. Let people protect 'meself if they want :) 15:02:36 well, not as easily, anyway :) 15:02:45 schme: yeah it's exactly the way GPL works 15:02:59 I want more freedom as a coder? I use BSD code 15:03:15 I want more freedom for my users? I use GPL code 15:03:20 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E472D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:23 And the GPL gives the user more freedome because ... ? 15:03:24 rsynnott: I don't understand why you think this. 15:03:40 There's a big misunderstanding: BSD programmers work for free (or they're already paid). GPL programmers DO NOT work for free. The EXCHANGE their program against other programs. 15:03:41 freedom even 15:03:43 What are they more free to do if they're allowed to do less things with the code you gave them ? 15:04:03 schme: because it guarantees to the user that derivative work will be free 15:04:15 BSD does not guarantee this 15:04:18 so... 15:04:25 When I'll be paid to develop freedom software, I'll put it in BSD. Until then or until I win the Loto, I'll want a counterpart for my work. GPL! 15:04:26 rstandy: How does that make the user of a GPL'd piece of software more free .. while using that software? 15:04:31 discussing GPL v BSD and which is more free than the other suddenly makes me feel very old.. :) 15:04:36 derivative work is such a funny concept. 15:04:46 *rsynnott* throws in MIT and that Microsoft thing for the fun of it 15:04:53 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-146.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:05:00 schme: free as stated in the 4 FSF' freedoms regarding software 15:05:16 rstandy: But there is no added freedom at all in the use of that single software. It's all a lie :) 15:05:31 The reason I used to favour GPL was because I thought it was a good thing to do to FIGHT THE POWER etc. etc. etc.. But man, really, it just pisses people off and doesn't do anything to actually stop proprietary software. It seems to me just a really childish thing to do to use a GPL license. 15:05:39 Sorry if that sounds insulting, I don't mean it that way. 15:06:00 bob_f: note that companies like Sleepycat have actually gotten rich by choosing GPL instead of BSD, btw 15:06:01 bob_f: can you please give some evindence of your statements? 15:06:06 I'm really interested 15:06:16 rstandy: What in particular ? 15:06:30 the GPL/commercial strategy, though, has rarely actually been a great success 15:06:40 sleepycat is an exception, and mysql sort of is 15:06:43 rstandy: Here's a good example: LGPL libraries piss off lispers something horribly ;) 15:06:56 rsynnott: ghostscript is another sort-of. 15:07:09 bob_f: pissing off people 15:07:24 (oh, people that write free and use free software) 15:07:26 -!- l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:07:31 Yes. 15:07:33 *Xach* solves his sbcl memory problem by installing 4x more for $50 15:08:06 <[df]_> I can't say I've ever personally been pissed off with any free license 15:08:17 it's obvius that the intent is to piss off people who write private software 15:08:20 <[df]_> now when someone gives me a binary and expects me to use it without access to the source, that pisses me off 15:08:52 [df]_: Only if it doesn't work. If it works, I'm really pleased when I get handed a binary. 15:08:55 rstandy: Yes, but it doesn't work, because large companies can already afford to pay for developers to write code. So all you're really doing is stopping smaller companies from taking a share in the software market - the big ones just get bigger. 15:08:58 like a motherboard without a soldering iron attached. 15:09:02 sounds odd. why should people be obliged to give you anything? 15:09:16 <[df]_> tmh: maybe it's just that it so often doesn't work then 15:09:18 17:04:03 < rstandy> schme: because it guarantees to the user that derivative work will be free 15:09:31 that's about stupid FSF-let's-make-a-better-world politics 15:09:32 <[df]_> particularly with linux binaries - someone distributes a binary for redhat and then it just doesn't work with debian 15:09:39 i don't get why you won't admit this. 15:09:41 rstandy: you may write private software with GPL code. What you cannot do is to write public software with GPL code without giving the sources. 15:09:43 yours. 15:09:49 -!- phf [n=phf@146.145.38.2] has quit ["Leaving..."] 15:10:03 Well, I guess I'm glad at least that the GPL fad appears to be dying out. :) 15:10:05 matimago: yes, right 15:10:10 the GPL is certainly targetted more at fundamentally changing the way software is produced and distributed 15:10:21 l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 15:10:23 and to an extent it may even have worked; it's rather hard to tell 15:10:29 Think of it as 'guaranteeing a return on your investment in the software-as-a-product market' 15:10:33 Notice also, that GPL ([12], I don't know about 3) doesn't do anything to prevent you providing your private software as a web service, ie. without distributing it. 15:10:42 nope, nor does 3 15:10:53 This could become a problem. 15:11:02 uh yes. 15:11:03 Here's hoping. 15:11:04 <[df]_> there's a separate license for that 15:11:09 (there is a thing called AGPL, which requires you to release the source of anything you make accessible over a network) 15:11:17 Sheesh. 15:11:19 matimago: yes, there is the Affero GPL for that 15:11:19 but of course no-one uses that one, for it is absurd 15:11:25 the internet seems to be having problems with the web services being proprietary. It's preventing it from becoming popular. 15:11:36 originally, 3 was going to have that clause 15:11:37 rsynnott: I don't find it absurd at all. 15:11:52 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:11:52 so, all in all why can say, BSD > GPL, right? 15:11:53 great! 15:11:57 :-) 15:12:09 Yes. Now how about that lisp, eh? 15:12:17 :D 15:12:20 Users may need some tracability. Why should they use a web site if they cannot trust its code? Is it selling private information? Is it using my input for evil deeds? 15:12:23 rsynnott: I don't consider AGPL either 15:12:29 *absurd 15:12:46 rstandy: The world needs people like you. 15:12:47 matimago: Seems people are happy with using those web sites regardless of all this. 15:12:49 matimago: LOL, do you really think just by providing the source, 90% of the users will actually try to comprehend it? 15:12:57 schme: a problem of consciousness. 15:13:07 Turns out the majority of people don't give a fuck. (: 15:13:09 very difficult to make people comply, huge administrative load on anyone who modifies and deploys such software, and so on 15:13:10 <[df]_> athos: that's not really the point 15:13:21 <[df]_> for example, I haven't personally satisfied myself that AES is secure 15:13:25 So it's about "they could if they want to"? 15:13:27 Just sue the rich ones. 15:13:30 athos: a problem of competence, but this is easily solvable: users may contract their own experts to audit the sources. 15:13:30 <[df]_> but I know a lot of respected cryptographers have 15:13:48 experts are usually not for free ;-) 15:13:54 Here's my idea. If you don't like it all, just stop using those sites :P 15:13:56 that's why they are experts :) 15:13:57 "Oh, dear, we need to release a quickfix for our website! Remember to update the online source listing at the same time!" 15:13:57 no google for you! 15:14:11 I have checked the sources of some (distribution released) utilities I've installed on my system. 15:14:33 Now what is a real bugger is that proprietary HARDWARE. 15:14:34 I don't care about you matimago, sorry. 15:14:34 rsynnott: it could be the same, it'd be trivial to provide the source of your hunchentoot server along. 15:14:35 :) 15:14:48 You really don't represent any kind of majority 15:15:14 schme: yeah, we'd need an electronic microscope to check the chips... 15:15:15 *rsynnott* would not personally use any piece of software for any website which would require me to make the source of the whole thing available 15:15:27 ! 15:15:41 in most cases, this isn't even because I don't want anyone taking my source, more because of the huge administative load involved 15:15:45 athos: the majority of living being on Earth eat shit and live a few days at most. 15:16:01 Nah, that's not the majority :-) 15:16:04 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [No route to host] 15:16:12 I open source my personal webdev projects, but yeah, the idea of *having* to do it is ridiculous. 15:16:17 most of them don't eat at all, actually 15:16:23 they photosynthesise 15:16:27 and the proposition simply fails in pure practicallity: you can not wade through all possible source code for the stuff you are dealing with in your life. besides, there's the law and insurace that is supposed to make you feel somewhat more safe - e.g., that you can deposit money in your bank without going through their source codes. 15:16:42 The idea of having to give pieces of paper away to get cookies is also ridiculous. 15:16:52 bob_f: no you don't have to do it 15:17:02 *athos* has bank accounts at only those banks who use GPL'ed software 15:17:03 ! 15:17:04 rsynnott: right, I meant in the animal kingdom. 15:17:08 *splittist* thinks even an argument about the definition of 'living being' would be better than an emotional conversation about software licences 15:17:16 people are of course free to release AGPL software 15:17:23 but I can't see many people using the stuff 15:17:25 *Xach* quickly crashes due to insufficiently high /proc/sys/vm/max_map_count :( 15:17:29 athos: and I bet you only drive cars where the lil' microcontrollers doing whatheck is running GPL code. 15:17:31 is gary king around by any chance 15:17:37 schme: hah :D 15:17:41 bob_f: if you want to use GPL code you have to respect the program license 15:17:41 I'm having some difficulties / bugs to report on cl-graph 15:17:45 (incf Zhivago) 15:17:47 (unless you consider viruses to be living; viruses don't eat or photosynthesize :) ) 15:17:53 schme: i build them from scratch and release all it's software unter GPL v3 of course! 15:18:22 rstandy: Doesn't mean I have to think it isn't a selfish, childish, spiteful way of licensing software. 15:18:24 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:18:34 athos: !!! and i bet your telecom provider also have free open access GPLed systems right?! i bet your credit card OSes also only use GPL code! and when you go flying a jumbo jet, you plan ahead 10 years so you can try to make sense out of the 10miljon or so of Ada code prior to take off? :) 15:18:44 It's almost as though it's there to reconcile freedom and greed. 15:18:44 :D 15:19:14 bob_f: you can think what you want. I think there are many people who consider the GPL a very good license 15:19:16 bob_f: indeed - how can you reconcile two concepts with so little contrast 15:19:26 I think it's a very good license. 15:19:28 hypno: it's even more than that. i usually take some C4 when boarding a plane (of course the timer and stuff is gpl'ed), because the probability to have two bombs on an airplane is much lower than having only one 15:19:31 rstandy: Thank you for your generosity. 15:19:40 I was very concerned that you would not let me think what I want. 15:19:44 athos: hehe 15:19:48 Which is not the same as being 'the only license that people should ever use'. 15:19:54 It is clear that you really do care about freedom after all. 15:20:00 bob_f: thank you for your kindness too 15:20:14 Also, I think there are many people who have malaria. 15:20:18 So I don't know what your point is. 15:20:44 and 'freedom' is an especially well-specified concept, after all 15:20:49 that's bob_f. live. only on #lisp, CBS' new after-work-is-fun-program 15:21:05 athos: Hey, I'm still at work ! 15:21:22 Got 40 minutes more to kill. :) 15:21:24 yeah, i'm free to give a fuck about GPL and just reuse gpl'ed code 15:21:27 that's freedom! 15:21:29 splittist: freedom for software is well specified in some circles 15:21:42 -!- lichtblau [n=user@77-22-106-191-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [No route to host] 15:21:44 Ha ha ha. 15:21:49 rstandy: in 1984 also. 15:21:58 gmdjm1959 [n=gmdjm195@ip98-180-9-146.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:19 athos: you are free to get sued too. 15:22:23 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-103-42.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:22:33 matimago: now i'm quite scared :( 15:22:36 matimago: damn you :( 15:22:40 Gabor's June 29 post on Planet Lisp has me thinking about what to do with optimization DECLAIM forms in my code. 15:22:57 Guest497`: Can you not see we're talking about important matters here. 15:23:00 rstandy: It is a bit like freedom in politics. It is very well specified in free market circles, and also well specified in communist circles. 15:23:07 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-66-152.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:23:14 okay kiddos, now stop favoring santa-claus like hackers and their licenses and let's move on to some lisp 15:23:18 Right now I have (declaim #.optimize:+fast-unsafe+) at the top of a few files. 15:23:24 athos: \o/ 15:23:48 Seems I be using EVAL-WHEN at the very least. 15:24:18 bob_f: sorry to interrupt with burning on-topic issues .... 15:24:34 :) 15:24:43 -!- gcv [n=gcv@67.97.51.195] has quit [] 15:25:39 athos, unfortunate voting by the means of one's wallet (if that's what you did) is a dangerously misguided concept. 15:25:46 unfortunately 15:26:10 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 15:26:12 i like money 15:26:15 really. 15:26:22 Gabor also mentions adding additional uses of LOCALLY, just for optimization declarations. Can anyone give an example of when this might be a good idea? 15:26:25 It buys me red shoes. 15:27:58 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 15:30:36 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:52 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.15] has joined #lisp 15:34:58 timor [n=martin@w4315.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 15:35:12 -!- Demosthenex [n=demo@173.86.192.171] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:35:13 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:38:58 The game of economics is so rigged no amount of wallet voting can offset vested interests. 15:39:26 Isn't that what guns are for? 15:39:34 deepfire: But you can still vote by feet. 15:40:05 Feet voting = no more taxes income = notice taken. 15:40:41 Not that they're smart enough to deduce anything from the notice, but that's another question. 15:40:44 Zhivago, see the increased militarisation of law enforcement in the U.S. They are clearly ready for that. 15:40:56 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 15:41:20 Just catching up with the distribution of income. 15:41:31 matimago, too late, too little effect. 15:42:42 deepfire: well, until we get a worldwide government putting all the countries in a mixer to get a homogeneous mass, there's an effect at your personal level, since you change your circumstances. 15:42:55 deepfire: Are you in North America or the EU? 15:43:17 tmh, Russia. 15:43:25 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:43:27 ochyen preyatna 15:43:32 Fortunately most countries only allow rich people to migrate. 15:43:33 :-) 15:44:03 deepfire: Have you traveled much? 15:44:26 Does it make any difference? USA will lead us in the fall. 15:44:37 tmh, no. 15:45:01 matimago: I didn't think anyone cared about the USoA anymore. 15:45:16 schme, how can you ignore 50% of world military spending? 15:45:19 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:38 deepfire: money > military :) 15:45:46 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.51.25] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:45:47 schme: when you have a chain linking your ankle to a big rock on the verge of falling, you still care about it. 15:46:03 schme: at least until you can break the chain. 15:46:04 schme, it's a closed feedback loop, so no. 15:46:08 deepfire: Thanks, just curious. I'm always interested in people's views of things and the experience behind those views. 15:46:21 Edico_ [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 15:46:33 matimago: Good thing the rest of the world is not linked to the USoA then. 15:46:44 tmh, these days information gathered on personal level << open sources. 15:46:46 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-186-234.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:46:55 Internets, you should realise. 15:46:59 deepfire: in practice, probably less than 50% 15:47:24 (China are known to be lying about theirs; it's just that it's not clear what the magnitude is) 15:47:42 rsynnott, we aren't sure U.S. isn't lying as well. 15:47:56 rsynnott: Also the USoA is known to be lying about theirs; it's just not clear what the magnitude is. 15:48:10 deepfire: Sure, I try the same. But what little traveling I've done has convinced me that the internet is still a pinhole view of the world, albeit a bigger pinhole than was available previously. 15:48:24 there's at least some accounting there; you can assume that just about all of the 'black budget' is going into military, but most of the rest is broken up well enough 15:48:47 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:49:05 (if nothing else, US military spending is already so high that it would be hard to significantly increase it without the deficit being noticed) 15:49:56 s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-160-165-134.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:34 It's all really irrelevant, it's the largest military in the world any way you slice it. 15:51:14 The point was, you can't ignore it. 15:51:20 *tmh* didn't get the memo that it was Politics Friday on #lisp. 15:51:32 *Sikander* thought this was #military 15:51:41 deepfire: It's easy enough to ignore. Just .. ignore it. 15:52:05 Yugoslavia anybody? 15:52:08 everyone has nukes, size doesn't matter. So we can all safely ignore everything. 15:52:32 Good evening. 15:52:41 Create pretext, invade under disguise of pacification. 15:53:01 Though it would seem that China has a much larger army than the USA. :) 15:53:21 yes, the presence of nukes does even things out slightly 15:53:33 (or even POTENTIAL nukes, a la Germany and Japan) 15:53:38 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:53:50 as dangerous as potential numbers in CL 15:54:02 Xach: what is this CL you speak of? 15:54:15 Some kind of counter-politics movement, I think. 15:54:37 Careful Xach, you're going off topic there... 15:55:00 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [No route to host] 15:55:56 *deepfire* goes back to synthesizing flash programming routines. 15:56:26 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:56:38 malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:56:48 Just when I feared the next topic of conversation would be climate change... 15:56:55 heh 15:57:00 *tmh* vomits 15:57:26 Anyone have suggestions for a Portable Lisp Hacking setup i.e. something I can stick on a USB stick and use with whatever corporate Windows PC I am given? 15:57:32 Well, let's just hope the ice age doesn't come too quickly. 15:57:54 *splittist* moves skiing lessons up TODO list 15:58:06 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-151-57.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:58:11 splittist: a linux VM, perhaps 15:58:24 (along with X server, so you can use emacs locally) 15:58:28 splittist: I've been out of the corporate environment for a while, but do corporations in general allow you to bring USB flash into the office? 15:58:51 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-6-10.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:59:33 Not if the IT is any good 15:59:35 Isn't there a console emacs? 15:59:47 quick question about the :element-type arg for #'make-array - if I want the array to hold a cons cell containing a fixnum and a double-float, is it possible to specify this with :element-type 15:59:49 ? 15:59:53 http://portableapps.com/ 15:59:58 *Sikander* always thought that emacs was console, and xemacs was in X. 16:00:17 *Sikander* is but a lowly vim user, so what does he know? 16:00:39 malcolm_reynolds: :element-type '(cons fixnum double-float) 16:00:40 It is an unfortunately confusing name. 16:00:56 Sikander: nope, the existence of xemacs is due to some sort of complex schism 16:00:57 Sikander: You can think of it as "emacs" and "eXtra good emacs" 16:01:03 involving Harlequin, I think! 16:01:16 (though xemacs seems largely defunct now) 16:01:20 Lucid, actually 16:01:24 ah 16:01:28 Sikander, `Emacs' refers to a family of editors, the most prominent of which is GNU Emacs. GNU Emacs runs under a terminal or under X11 or under Carbon or Cocoa on a Mac, &c. XEmacs, formerly (less confusingly) called Lucid Emacs or Lemacs, is simply another member of the Emacs family of editors. 16:01:33 tcr: ah, I tried that but the array which got echoed back on the repl seemed to contain just a zero in each element. is that just the case until i stick some values in there? 16:02:18 ah... Well, then you can just stick some console gnu emacs on the usb stick, right? Why need X at all... 16:02:28 splittist: I think you could probably just put emacs,slime,[clisp|sbcl|ccl]+ on a USB stick with appropriate configurations and go from there. Google it. 16:02:34 (or, you know, use vim :)) 16:02:35 I believe XEmacs may have had support for X before GNU Emacs, but that was over a decade ago. 16:03:44 malcolm_reynolds: The problem is that there most probably is not specialized array version for that very specific type. So the array gets upgraded to T. 16:04:09 tmh: Yes. I've done that in the past. I was wondering if there was anything new to look at. Portable Ubuntu Remix (or whatever it is) is too difficult to get to talk to the network (for me to bother with) 16:04:21 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:04:36 ah okay. yeah i just noticed that I can stick any value of any type into an element of an array created like that. 16:04:44 malcolm_reynolds: You should probably define your own accessor for that particular array, and declare it to return (cons fixnum double-float) 16:04:47 clhs upgraded-array-element-type 16:04:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_upgr_1.htm 16:05:09 malcolm_reynolds: Use that to check your type. 16:05:17 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.51.25] has joined #lisp 16:05:26 segv [n=mb@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:05:45 splittist: Talk to the network? I thought you just wanted a portable lisp environment. :-) 16:06:13 CL-USER> (upgraded-array-element-type '(cons fixnum double-float)) returns t, which matches what you say 16:06:25 how would i go about defining my own accessor? is this covered in cltl? 16:07:05 malcolm_reynolds: Define a wrapper structure or object and go from there. 16:07:06 malcolm_reynolds: (defun my-acc (...) ...) (defun (setf my-acc) (new-value ...) ...) 16:07:18 ah i see 16:07:27 malcolm_reynolds: if you already have a reader and a writer, have a look at defsetf. 16:07:41 malcolm_reynolds: they may also be defmethod instead of defun. 16:08:49 so instead of (aref my-array x y) I'll be using (my-acc my-array x y) ? 16:10:01 malcolm_reynolds: It's not clear, to me at least, what you are trying to accomplish. 16:10:12 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-234-152.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:10:14 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:10:18 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:10:28 malcolm_reynolds: yes. 16:10:51 basically i want a square matrix where element x,y is the distance between point x and y 16:10:59 and i want to build a nearest neighbours graph 16:11:16 so once i've filled in the matrix i want to find the k smallest distances in each column 16:11:30 malcolm_reynolds: Yes, also make sure to declaim the functions inline 16:11:42 so i figured if each element is a cons cell containing the distance (double-float) and index of the other point (fixnum) then i sort using the distance as a key 16:11:50 malcolm_reynolds: I fail to see how that requires a specific accessor. 16:12:14 malcolm_reynolds: And remember that SBCL inserts typechecks for declaration in non-unsafe code. So be careful if you need to use those accessors in an actual inner loop 16:12:30 i'm sure it doesn't, i just want this to go as fast as possible and so i was wondering how to properly declare the type of the array 16:12:34 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@nmd.sbx07476.centeva.wayport.net] has quit [] 16:12:34 malcolm_reynolds: Why not define a structure/object with 2 square arrays, one containing the distance and one containing the indices. Then build your methods accordingly. 16:13:01 s/build/define/ 16:13:14 *tmh* is too sloppy with his terminology. 16:13:24 tmh: that makes sense but is it possible to get the built in sort to sort the two simultaneously, according to the values in one of the arrays? 16:13:25 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-215-139.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:50 malcolm_reynolds: Not really. 16:13:52 malcolm_reynolds: I doubt it 16:13:56 i mean, I've done a CS degree, and I could write an okay sort function myself.. but it's not going to be as good as the built in 16:14:10 yeah, that's what i was assuming. hence pairing the elements in the array. 16:14:15 malcolm_reynolds: the only thing that could be done, is to displace a vector over that 2D array, but that wouldn't sort the cells how you want. 16:14:33 Doesn't the built in sort function allow to give a compare function? 16:14:35 malcolm_reynolds: Stupid sort requirement. :-) 16:14:50 Sikander: yes, but not where to store the items. 16:15:12 Bigshot_ pasted "weird attempt decompress" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83374 16:15:13 So you'd have to call the sort function twice, you mean... 16:15:28 well only one of the two arrays is being sorted 16:15:38 the other one just needs the keys moved around in the same relative places 16:15:48 but once one is sorted, they are out of sync 16:15:53 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 16:16:07 tmh: haha probably. but nearest neighbours is a fairly concrete requirement for what I'm doing.. 16:16:14 ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 16:16:25 Bigshot_: I'm going home. I'll be back in half an hour. In the meantime: 16:16:27 clhs make-list 16:16:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_lis.htm 16:17:13 this is probably the only place that i've found so far where matlab wins over lisp, the sort function there returns a second argument which contains the indices in some way which allows you to know what the indices of the smallest k sorted elements are 16:17:14 malcolm_reynolds: Sort won't work on your coupled array any, it only works on proper sequences. 16:17:31 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:17:42 tmh: ah. heh. well I'm glad i found that out at this stage.. 16:18:36 minion: memo for sykopomp: According to Japanese Wikipedia,  is the correct romanization. Still, TTCL would be a COOL name for lisp book :) 16:18:37 Remembered. I'll tell sykopomp when he/she/it next speaks. 16:19:21 malcolm_reynolds: I think if you want to do this in CL, you'll get to implement your own sort. Congratulations! 16:20:02 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:20:11 tmh: haha. 16:20:43 well i can't complain, more fun than looking at the 5 gig datafile i have yet to touch which is the basis of this project.. 16:21:51 Sorry to ask this, especially since it wasn't my problem and all seems to be "resolved" now, but what is wrong with using one array of cons cells? 16:23:01 malcolm_reynolds: How would sorting in two dimensions work anyway? 16:23:30 -!- s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-160-165-134.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:24:18 Sikander: can you have a look at my post? 16:24:18 Sikander: well i'd just be sorting each row or column separately (the array is symmetric, as far as the distance element anyway) 16:25:07 malcolm_reynolds: can't you sort per row by taking these sub arrays (I forget the right function name, yep I'm a noob)? 16:25:16 Bigshot_: ? 16:25:25 my post ^^^ 16:26:13 Sikander: I dunno, possibly, possibly not. tmh said sort only works on proper sequences, so it looks like my only real option is the two array approach, and then write my own quicksort which moves elements in both arrays at once 16:26:35 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:27:04 malcolm_reynolds: So what was wrong with the cons cell approach? 16:27:08 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-117-37.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:27:26 apparently sort doesn't work on an arbitrary row / column of an array 16:27:54 malcolm_reynolds: But, if you sort by rows, you could use a displaced array to grab the row and pass that to sort. 16:27:59 Bigshot_: I'm looking at it... 16:28:19 tmh: ah i see 16:28:20 tmh: that's what I meant 16:28:27 i guess that's probably a pretty good solution 16:28:35 malcolm_reynolds: yeah, tht's what I said about "sub arrays" 16:28:40 s/tht/that/ 16:28:53 malcolm_reynolds: Maybe, you're the only one that actually understands what you're trying to accomplish. 16:29:00 but the array won't be specialisable, which I'm quite keen on.. I think I'll probably just write a custom quicksort 16:29:06 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-173-169.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:09 tmh: probably. not great at explaining this in irc.. 16:29:20 malcolm_reynolds: What does specialization buy you? 16:29:21 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:40 tmh: speed? surely it's a couple less pointers to follow for each access? 16:30:05 -!- timor [n=martin@w4315.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:30:12 malcolm_reynolds: Perhaps, but you won't know if that matters until you have working code. 16:30:34 And have profiled it. 16:30:43 del [n=del@75-172-195-201.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:52 well I already do have a way of doing nearest neighbours that doesn't build the full matrix, just does each point one at a time. it's very slow. hence rewrite. 16:31:45 Bigshot_: I'm looking. What exactly do you want to know? 16:31:59 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:32:01 i want to decompress the list but it gives me nil 16:32:21 malcolm_reynolds: Seems that you're on the right track by focusing on the algorithm, but perhaps the array specialization is a micro-optimization that can wait for profiling. 16:32:35 Bigshot_: It works for you? I get all sorts of error messages... 16:32:43 yes 16:32:49 it gives me nil 16:33:05 Bigshot_: for instance, #'fillist should be #'filllist 16:33:17 zophy [n=sy@host-27-92-2-96.midco.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:57 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-12-30.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:34:20 -!- del [n=del@75-172-195-201.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 16:34:43 Sikander: why doesn't it work? 16:34:58 Bigshot_: you made some typos when pasting (?!) 16:35:01 tmh: possibly. but either way, i've dug out my textbooks so I don't think a quicksort will take long to write, and i think it's pretty much the optimal solution in this case. 16:35:08 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:35:12 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.206.91] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:35:13 Sikander: after correcting filllist 16:35:20 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-69-209-193-174.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:35:28 Bigshot_: Ok, give me a sec 16:35:42 Can anyone here elaborate on the CCL initialization sequence? I have a TMH-USER package with interactive convenience functions that I load in my SBCL initialization file. I set *package* to TMH-USER as the initial value. In CCL, it somehow gets set back to CL-USER. 16:36:07 malcolm_reynolds: Okay, I can appreciate that, it's always fun to get your hands dirty with a little coding. :-) 16:37:05 Bigshot_: Also, in the function decompress-list, at the end, (cdr list) should probably be (cddr list)? 16:37:29 Bigshot_: Then I get nil as well. 16:39:47 -!- Kirklander [n=Kirkland@c-24-147-235-44.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 16:40:17 Bigshot_: When the len in filllist reaches 0, it returns nil. So decompress list will always return nil 16:40:38 synic [n=squish@pdpc/supporter/student/synic] has joined #lisp 16:40:46 anyone know where I can obtain a copy of cello? 16:40:52 Bigshot_: Oh wait, I lie 16:40:58 the link on their site is non-functional. 16:42:44 -!- davazp [n=user@79.153.148.56] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:44:38 Bigshot_: I meant to say: decompress-list will always end up returning nil because it is the only end clause 16:44:44 (or whatever it's called) 16:45:14 Bigshot_: But then still, it should work fine, I guess... I don't get it. Wait 16:45:19 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:15 vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 16:47:08 Bigshot_: Ok, I got it. Your recursive call to decompress-list should be the second argument to append. You must "displace" one parenthesis 16:47:28 Kirklander [n=Kirkland@216.93.247.56] has joined #lisp 16:47:45 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:45 Bigshot_: Now it works 16:48:31 Bigshot_: But beware, your functions are not tail-recursive 16:48:55 what do you mean? not tail recursive? 16:49:17 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 16:49:53 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:49:55 Bigshot_: Basically, the recursive call you make to the function is not the "last" operation that the function performs. Just google for tail-recursion for a good explanation. 16:50:14 Bigshot_: But this is not the problem now. Did you move the parenthesis? 16:50:18 yep 16:50:24 And does it work? 16:50:28 yes 16:50:32 thanks 16:50:34 Ok, congrats 16:50:48 mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:50 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:51:03 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:51:27 Note however, that you might want to add a condition to fill list, namely if len is not an integer, that it conses elem and len, and returns that 16:51:59 In that case, '(a 3 b 2 c d 2 e 3) also works 16:52:18 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:52:33 It would make no sense to "compress" '(c) to '(c 1) 16:52:44 or even '(b b) to '(b 2) 16:53:32 i wont' worry about it 16:54:07 Ok, it would make it all a little bit more robust, though.. 16:56:05 ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-69-209-193-174.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:21 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-215-139.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:59:59 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-21-207.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:01:25 -!- segv [n=mb@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 17:01:29 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:04:58 Bigshot_: have you read the clhs make-list I indicated above? 17:05:09 Bigshot_: why are you still talking about filllist? 17:05:34 pjb compress problem is done this is another one 17:05:58 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has joined #lisp 17:06:23 Bigshot_: Read what I wrote above (under matimago)! 17:07:19 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:43 k 17:09:30 Now, (apply (function f) x y) <=> (f x y) Why do you use apply? 17:09:44 I mean< Now, (apply (function f) (list x y)) <=> (f x y) Why do you use apply? 17:10:05 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:41 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:12:29 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:12:52 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp154.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 17:13:02 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:25 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp154.studby.uio.no] has quit [Client Quit] 17:16:11 done pjb 17:16:17 with funcall 17:17:04 Why do you want to use funcall? (funcall (function f) x y) <=> (f x y) 17:17:29 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp154.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 17:17:43 Bigshot_: you should work step by step. First, how do you split an input list into the elements to be processed and the rest? (let ((input '(a 2 b 3 c 1))) (let ((elem ??) (run-length ??) (remaining ??)) (values elem run-length remaining))) -> a ; 2 ; (b 3 c 1) 17:18:42 kerimbasol [n=kerim@212.174.90.98] has joined #lisp 17:20:08 (elem (car input) (run-length (cadr input)) and (remaining (cddr input)) 17:20:34 Yes. 17:20:39 so? 17:20:41 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:50 You didn't use cddr in decompress-list. 17:21:04 later on i did 17:21:06 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:21:37 If you don't tell us what you know, we'll lose our time making you understand what you already know... 17:21:38 pjb what if its (a 2 (b 3) 2 c 1) => (a a (b b b) (b b b) c)? 17:22:14 This is another specification, so you'll need to write another decompress. 17:22:29 here filllist will come into play? 17:22:56 You don't need filllist, since cl:make-list already do the same. 17:23:10 luis pasted "LDB cluelessness" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83383 17:23:29 Any SBCL hacker care to point out what I'm doing wrong? 17:24:30 pjb: Wait, I told him to use cddr in decompress-list. is that wrong? 17:24:35 the pointer looks good, why does LDB say it's not? 17:24:52 Sikander: no it's ok. I was watching the paste. 17:25:04 pjb: ok 17:25:41 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-f16862ea01f681f7] has joined #lisp 17:26:32 luis: function pointers should point to closures or simple-funs. Simple-funs are stored *in* code-objects (on x86oids anyway), but function pointers never point directly to code objects. 17:27:17 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:38 good morning #bigshot 17:30:27 pkhuong: anyway to get ldb to print me some info about a code object? 17:30:31 *any way 17:30:57 Other than a memory a dump. :-) 17:31:29 I don't know. Attach gdb? The layout is described in objdef.lisp. 17:32:03 Yeah, that's what I've been doing. It gets boring really fast. 17:32:20 write a C function (: 17:32:23 Maybe I should learn how to do GDB macros. 17:32:38 *splittist* is excited to get an sbcl CL-USER> prompt - then remembers ASDF on Windows ): 17:32:44 Write peek and poke with some VOP and debug from lisp! 17:32:52 Easy - use no libraries! 17:32:55 pjb: hard to do when you're in LDB. 17:33:19 Same reason I would rather generate a GC via lisp than run it directly in CL. 17:33:37 Perhaps LDB should fork another SBCL image to help debug the parent. 17:33:53 A related question: can I get LDB to print an object at a given address without having to provide a corrently tagged pointer? 17:34:13 pjb: nyef has some stuff using ptrace. 17:34:26 Which I probably should be using. 17:34:28 luis: hard to tell the type of an object without the tag 17:34:42 splittist: asdf on windows is fine. asdf-install isn't 17:34:49 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp154.studby.uio.no] has quit [Client Quit] 17:35:01 pkhuong: well, only if it's a cons, other objects will have proper widetags, right? 17:35:07 You could use some heuristic, as a human, based on the widetag, but really that's asking for trouble when the heap is very likely corrupted. 17:35:08 pkhuong: luis: you could try each tag and see what displays meaningfully? 17:35:10 just push each library dir into asdf:*load-path* 17:35:12 gotta go 17:35:37 pjb http://paste.lisp.org/+1SC8 17:35:38 pjb: right now I look at the widetag and pick the corresponding pointer lowtag. 17:35:40 luis: Right... if it's actually a valid object. 17:38:30 pkhuong: my heap is only corrupted in time, not in space. :-) 17:38:53 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:39:01 *luis* curses threads 17:39:14 cornucopic [n=r00t@115.184.208.229] has joined #lisp 17:42:03 pjb you there man? 17:42:28 Yep 17:42:36 -!- abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@conference/gcds/x-911dd7fc05ccdb1b] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:42:42 did you check the post? ^^ 17:43:32 What if it's (a 2 (b 3 (c 4) 5 d 1) c 2) ? 17:43:46 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:44:07 Bigshot_: you definitely DO NOT NEED to use funcall or apply! 17:44:35 nope only one level deep list 17:44:38 What if it's (T 3 NIL 4) ? 17:44:59 Bigshot_: I doubt such a limitation is specified. 17:45:27 only one level deep is fine 17:45:43 don't worry about t and inl 17:45:48 s/inl/nil 17:45:54 brb 17:46:15 Bigshot_: the fact is that it would be simplier to call (decomp2 (car list)) than to call make-list again... 17:46:17 Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:38 abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@conference/gcds/x-c3597524246bb8d0] has joined #lisp 17:48:48 pjb: forget about educating him wrt funcall, apply and (specifically) not using them... 17:48:57 Anyway, have fun with RLE, I'm outta here 17:49:08 Good evening! 17:49:10 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@wirenat-eld.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has quit ["Don't like RLE that much anyway"] 17:51:19 segv [n=mb@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:55:13 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 17:57:55 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-8-126.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:59:03 pjb scholar man it worked! ;-) 17:59:35 -!- elderK [n=elderK@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [] 18:02:26 milanj [n=milan@93.87.194.237] has joined #lisp 18:05:42 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:08:28 god walking in the rain is stupid when it's pouring outside 18:09:18 TDT: less than doing so when it's pouring inside. 18:09:43 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:09:55 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@85.5.55.63] has quit ["Too deep for me"] 18:10:13 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:17 -!- abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@conference/gcds/x-c3597524246bb8d0] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:13:57 pjb http://paste.lisp.org/+1SC8#1 what's wrong with this one? 18:14:15 TDT: you would think god could just conjure up an umbrella or, better yet, make it stop raining 18:15:05 pity the poor farmers 18:15:46 aren't farmers generally in favour of rain? 18:15:48 still this run length compression? 18:15:55 rsynnott: unless it's raining too much 18:18:03 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 18:18:13 Bigshot_: becareful with the recursive calls! You must not call another function, but the same one. 18:18:34 Bigshot_: as a matter of interest, why are you doing this recursively? 18:18:36 stassats`: a variant, deep run-length compression. 18:18:56 pjb: where am i calling another function? 18:19:00 a progress! 18:19:12 Bigshot_: you're calling compress from compress2. 18:19:44 sharp observer! 18:19:45 heheh, someone added twitter to paste.lisp... 18:20:00 Bigshot_: not me, my lisp implementation ! 18:20:10 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:20:32 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 18:21:49 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:49 benny` [n=benny@i577A1613.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:26:42 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A18D7.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:30:45 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:31:33 r00t_ [n=r00t@115.184.226.153] has joined #lisp 18:32:38 phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 18:32:57 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:33:20 -!- r00t_ [n=r00t@115.184.226.153] has quit [Client Quit] 18:35:46 cy-borg [n=user@250.99.188.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:36:30 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:36:58 And so I return... 18:37:29 r00t_ [n=r00t@115.184.226.153] has joined #lisp 18:39:34 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:40:22 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:33 -!- r00t_ [n=r00t@115.184.226.153] has quit [Client Quit] 18:40:52 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-30.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:41:16 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:57 Is cells-gtk... recommended? 18:42:13 (vs normal gtk bindings I mean) 18:46:22 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@115.184.208.229] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:46:56 Sikander: i don't think i've seen anyone do anything substantial with any gtk binding anywhere. 18:47:30 Sikander: Aside from that, I'm afraid I don't know if one is better than another. 18:47:35 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-12-30.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:48:20 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:48:29 Xach: Heheh... It's just that... mcclim is _hard_. I'm playing around with it, bumped into some issues (bugs?) and my mind doesn't bend that way yet. So I wanted a quick temporary fix 18:48:37 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:48:57 Sikander: cells-gtk is part cells (reactive programming layer), part "normal gtk bindings", so it's a wrong question 18:49:27 cells-gtk's layer was usable on its own last time i tried it, but getting into cells will probably take as much effort as wrapping your head around mcclim 18:49:42 *cells-gtk's gtk layer 18:49:52 phf: Ok, that's useful info, thanks 18:50:21 asksol [n=ask@97.218.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:50:31 So for a quick temporary fix I should just use plain gtk bindings or just wait a bit until I'm "fluent" in mcclim... 18:50:36 I wonder how cells would interact with qt's signal/slot based model 18:50:50 does mcclim have such a model? 18:51:04 I mean, is the signal/slot model similar to presentations? 18:52:37 willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 18:54:38 Xach: http://wcp.sdf-eu.org/software/medama/index.html (written using CLG) 18:58:22 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B169C69.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:00:04 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:00:38 -!- phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:01:23 fe[nl]ix: thank you! i was just thinking about walter c., and i'm sorry to have forgotten that project 19:02:42 pjb: good point, pouring inside would be much worse, heh. Still...I'm cold now, heh. 19:04:52 -!- benny` is now known as benny 19:08:20 -!- willb2 [n=wibenton@173.18.243.255] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:08:45 bhyde [n=Adium@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:15 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:09:42 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:10:43 bhyde pasted "clsql via clbuild on openmcl can't load clsql_uffi64 etc? " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83391 19:11:51 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 19:15:48 vyazovoi- [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 19:16:09 bhyde: any chance you're using cffi's uffi mode rather than uffi proper? 19:17:02 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.15] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:17:17 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-26-66.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:17:18 Sikander: you could look at commonqt 19:17:49 rsynnott: could be, i a moment of optimism I did: "./clbuild install clsql" :) 19:17:51 fe[nl]ix: oh, that's quite impressive 19:17:53 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-66-152.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:18:48 rsynnott: I'm now reading the clsql manual (oh poor pitiful me!). 19:19:10 -!- cy-borg [n=user@250.99.188.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:19:29 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:20:11 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:21:19 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 19:22:07 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:22:15 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:23:15 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:27:03 -!- vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:30:24 simard [n=user@pcms05.grm.polymtl.ca] has joined #lisp 19:33:22 does anyone know if there's something in lisp that would be to data as regexps are to strings ? for example, if I had some kind of XML or HTML document in list form (html (head (title)) (body) ...) and would like to search for a particular table or element in this document, providing how many times I would expect a certain html pattern to occur before and after it, just as in a regexp 19:33:52 minion: tell simard about xuriella 19:33:54 xuriella: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/xuriella 19:34:35 minion: tell simard about plexippus-xpath 19:34:36 plexippus-xpath: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/plexippus-xpath 19:35:03 simard: xpath may be suit your needs 19:35:58 xpath hum.. 19:36:00 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:24 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:25 will look at this, thank you ! 19:39:58 simard: Maybe a prolog library can help. (if you want to do pattern matching). 19:41:32 I'm not very familiar with prolog 19:41:37 should I ? 19:41:43 be* 19:41:51 It's always a good idea to be familiar with Prolog :) 19:42:00 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 19:42:09 It's good exercise for your brain. 19:42:11 reminds me of http://dropoff.org/qrpd/xah 19:42:26 heh 19:42:31 lol 19:42:40 oh well.. I'm in the academic world anyway 19:42:52 peddie_ [n=matthew@67.169.49.37] has joined #lisp 19:43:09 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 19:43:17 -!- peddie [n=matthew@67.169.49.37] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:43:25 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-26-66.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:43:41 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 19:44:08 demmel: so that prolog library you're talking about, how does it interact with lisp ? 19:44:58 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:02 simard: I think there are several out there. I actually don't know which is good :) . Start looking there: http://www.cliki.net/Prolog. Maybe someone has good/bad experience? 19:46:18 Anyone know how I could nicely extend the CLSQL data types to add support for a few MSSQL fieldS? 19:49:46 -!- simard [n=user@pcms05.grm.polymtl.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:51:51 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [] 19:52:00 hi, (type-of (map '(vector (unsigned-byte 16)) #'(lambda (x) 0) ())) => (SIMPLE-ARRAY (UNSIGNED-BYTE 16) (0)) ... is there a function to return the type: (vector (unsigned-byte 16)) in that case? 19:53:07 egn: why? 19:53:11 (typep (map '(vector (unsigned-byte 16)) #'(lambda (x) 0) ()) '(vector (unsigned-byte 16))) => T 19:54:06 jao [n=jao@52.Red-83-43-32.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:24 Xach: I need to (concatenate '(vector (unsigned-byte 16)) ...) and (concatenate (type-of seq) ...) doesn't work 19:54:52 don't know how to get the correct type 19:54:57 egn: that is an odd need. how did that come about? 19:55:56 lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-0-24.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:01 Xach: I want to make this work with other types http://paste.lisp.org/display/83393 19:56:04 lol 19:57:13 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [""I learned to code the hard way. The way the man who learnt the vibrator was infact an electric pencil sharpener." -- Manic"] 19:57:34 egn: there are many other ways to get a compatible target array. 19:57:39 `(vector ,(array-element-type seq)) ? 19:59:05 sorry, target sequence. 20:00:11 manic12_ [n=awolven@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:59 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 20:01:10 hye 20:01:20 hi 20:01:46 is there amazon ec2 lib ? 20:02:12 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 20:02:19 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["bye bye for now"] 20:02:24 Zach, something like yours ZS3 :) 20:03:43 milanj: AllegroCL has something for amazon ec2, but I haven't tried it 20:03:52 is tha gpl ? 20:04:08 or something like that ? 20:04:29 i don't know 20:05:13 milanj: i think some people might have private EC2 programs. i don't know of a public one. 20:05:29 milanj: i would like to make one, but i can only make it a priority if money is involved... 20:05:39 hm, yes 20:06:02 i have something for private use 20:06:41 just asking, if there is no any i can shape this for public library 20:06:58 milanj: do it! 20:07:08 even if there is already one, make yours way better in every way 20:07:14 stassats`: Xach: thanks, `(vector ,(array-element-type seq)) should work nice 20:07:35 egn: i take it you are not concerned about list sequences? 20:07:46 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:07:58 Xach: nah, I'm only dealing with vectors in this case 20:07:59 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:08:27 willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 20:08:52 egn: i think i would be inclined to use (make-array ... :element-type (array-element-type seq)) and then either one or two REPLACEs 20:12:41 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 20:13:14 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:13:52 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:16:25 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:17:00 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:22:32 Zach, i should, i will probably 20:22:42 metasyntax|work [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:58 thanks for Zs3 btw :) 20:23:07 you're welcome 20:23:33 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-12-30.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:30:56 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 20:32:50 wubbster [n=wubb@doc-24-206-235-153.kw.tx.cebridge.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:03 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-199-19-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:46:48 -!- segv [n=mb@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:52:06 UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:25 Having a problem building SBCL from source, anyone recognize an obvious cause here? http://paste.lisp.org/display/83394 20:56:11 lack of the command time ? 20:56:24 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:56:50 UnwashedMeme: looks like you don't have time installed, and/or make.sh can't find it. 20:57:01 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:57:16 -!- metasyntax|work [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["If you reach back in your memory, a little bell might ring, 'bout a time that once existed when money wasn't king."] 20:57:27 that's odd. time is a bash builtin 20:57:30 drewc: I have time 20:57:40 it looks like whatever time is trying to do is failing 20:57:54 it's just trying to print the time 20:58:13 UnwashedMeme: what is the output of `which time`? 20:58:13 line 118, is where it invokes make-host-1.sh, and the first thing in there is an echo 20:58:32 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:59:25 serichse1: http://paste.lisp.org/display/83394#1 20:59:53 which doesn't seem to find anything, but if it is a builtin 21:00:04 That's hillarious. 21:00:14 How about just removing time from make.sh ;) 21:00:30 UnwashedMeme: paste ls -l /bin/sh 21:00:44 sh is probably dash. 21:00:48 yeah 21:00:51 i think that might be it 21:00:56 Oh. so you don't have time :P 21:01:03 yeah 21:01:05 thanks a lot 21:01:11 sh is point to dash, not bash 21:01:34 I dunno why time isn't part of the base system, but apt-get install time should fix you up. 21:01:59 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:14 compile compile compile compile 21:03:11 -!- Qsource [i=dima@torch.blackened.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:05:10 time can either be an external program, or a bash built-in. 21:05:15 So I hacked the SBCL runtime to look for the core at $(dirname runtime_executable_path)/../lib/sbcl/sbcl.core, and it works fine. (No need for wrapper scripts setting SBCL_HOME anymore.) Is there some obvious problem with this scheme that I'm missing? I wonder why it hasn't been implemented yet, seems the obvious thing to do. 21:05:20 Dunno about other shells. 21:06:46 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 21:07:47 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@162.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:08:41 chris2 [n=chris@p5B169C69.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:09:47 defunkt [n=user@c-24-130-33-61.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:25 tcr: seems reasonable for OSes where you can do that easily. 21:10:28 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:10:44 who uses wrapper scripts setting SBCL_HOME? 21:10:54 willb2 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 21:12:03 hefner: How do you maintain multiple sbcl installations? 21:12:15 -!- Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:12:24 Hi folks, thank you very much. I have for the first time used sbcl for a project (about 2500 ~ 3000 lines of code), the develop experience is very enjoyable. I like the incremental approach a lot. 21:12:30 tcr: by running install.sh in whichever one I want to run at the moment 21:12:41 well if you compile in the right path where you're gonna install it, then you don't need to set SBCL_HOME externally. :) 21:12:49 hefner: And how do you invoke the right one? 21:13:03 there's only one, so I type 'sbcl' 21:13:20 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:24 *hefner* has never considered, let alone attempted to solve, this problem. 21:13:34 mdavid [n=mdavid@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:14:45 I too use a shell script that sets SBCL_HOME to $(dirname $0)/lib/sbcl and execs $(...)/bin/sbcl 21:15:01 Yeah plus a bunch of symlink 21:15:11 I never even really thought about fixing it otherwise 21:15:24 did that once a long time ago and that's been that 21:15:28 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:15:42 Yeah but I recently had some rm -rf ~tcr/ incident, and now my ~/bin has gone 21:16:01 tcr: Welcome to the club. 21:16:16 tcr: that is terrible. 21:16:43 I've played around with a system SBCL and a local development SBCL that I wanted to use for experimenting, but didn't use it enough. 21:16:51 That is, at the same time. 21:17:08 leo2007: Don't act like you've never done that. :-) 21:17:53 I have never done that. the closest I came was dd if=something of=/dev/hda instead of of=/dev/hdb. :) 21:18:18 luckily it didn't get very far before I realized my mistake, so I only lost the boot partition. 21:18:26 foom: I've done that as well. I'm just a tsunami of destructiveness. 21:18:58 Went to use hdg, but my finger slipped and I typed hdb 21:19:13 if you made this mistake in CL, you could protect yourself by sprinkling files with badly mangled names around, since your CL will probably blow up with some idiotic utf8 decoding error the first time it sees one 21:19:27 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 21:19:27 tmh: never for the whole directory 21:19:34 hefner: you'll be happy to know that python now has that feature too 21:19:40 Yeah that was my argument, alas I chose to write my destructive script in Python. 21:19:41 I did accidentally delete some files once in a file 21:19:42 progress! 21:20:01 which worked out quite fine, perhaps because I'm running an old version of it 21:20:03 *kpreid* prefers to write the hazardous command first as a comment, then uncomment it if it looks ok 21:20:21 tcr: right, that's a new feature in python 3 21:20:35 (which ~nobody uses yet) 21:20:43 foom: What exactly does it do differently now? 21:21:00 blows up on non-LC_CTYPE-encoded filenames. 21:21:09 tmh: i have implemented algorithm 659 from acm and I want to produce a 1000 x 1111 matrix for unit testing, is that easy to do? 21:21:49 I get the itch on occasion to check the source repository of several implmentations (clisp, ecl, sbcl, ccl, etc.) and track the development, building local versions about once a week and seeing how well my code runs on each. Unfortunately, it always turns out to take more time than I'm willing to spend. 21:22:57 leo2007: I'm not familiar with algorithm 659, easy in what sense? 21:23:26 *tmh* googles 21:23:45 tmh: title = {Algorithm 659: Implementing Sobol's quasirandom sequence generator}, 21:23:57 -!- vyazovoi- [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:24:08 -!- Jasko3 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:25:23 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-27-92-2-96.midco.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:26:36 tmh: I want to use the fortran code's output to verify my implementation and the matrix size is large. 21:28:47 kpreid: reminds me of my SQL habit of typing the WHERE clause before the DELETE FROM ... .. having hit enter early once or twice, i much prefer a syntax error to OMG FUCK NO! 21:28:57 Bah, launchpad.net is slow. 21:29:01 Are you using the fortran code from netlib(just curious)? My approach would be to write the fortran output to a file as a literal array #2A((row1)...(row 10000)), read that in and compare it with your result. 21:29:21 Samy [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:26 leo2007: Do you need to run the fortran code each time you run the test or only once? 21:29:44 tmh: the output is fixed so just once 21:30:05 but the dimention is 1111 21:30:17 -!- asksol [n=ask@97.218.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:30:17 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:30:31 leo2007: Okay, then I would write it out and make that file part of your tests. 1000 rows by 1111 columns is not that big, but I would like to know how the test performs. 21:31:21 tmh: ok, so the idea is to use the fortran code to write to a format that can be easily read by lisp, right? 21:32:33 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:49 leo2007: Yes, that should be pretty simple. I haven't done fortran in a while, so I can't paste something without going to a fortran reference, but I'm thinking a nested loop with a write statement and a format statement. 21:33:48 tmh: that's nice I will do that later tonight. I will let you know the performance tomorrow. 21:34:04 tmh: i got the code to output an array in fortran already 21:35:44 is this correct? (setq e ((lambda (x) x) 'a)) shouldn't there be brackets enclosing "x" in lambda function? 21:36:21 -!- willb2 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:36:33 No, why do you think so? 21:37:01 syntax error? ((lambda (x) (x))) 21:37:02 willb2 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 21:37:17 x is the body of function lambda 21:38:02 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:38:15 lambda is a macro 21:38:27 How is this relevant here? 21:38:58 Just trying to be pedantic 21:39:55 Bigshot_: (lambda (x) (x)) The first (x) specifies that the anonymous function takes one required parameter; the second (x) is a function application of the global function named X applied to no parameters. 21:40:22 Bigshot_: You read a good book, like Practical Common Lisp. 21:40:26 +should 21:40:35 -!- jao [n=jao@52.Red-83-43-32.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:42:21 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:43:38 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:45:16 tcr: in a 2-lisp, like Common Lisp, you're correct. In a 1-lisp, like Scheme, the second (x) would be applying the argument, which would have to be a function to avoid an error, to no arguments. 21:46:05 billstclair: The topic here is Common Lisp, so that was not an issue. 21:46:09 k 21:46:29 he's also being pedantic 21:47:08 To be even more pedantic, lambda isn't a macro, it's a special form. 21:47:10 good to know that there is so called 1-lisp and 2-lisp 21:47:44 Bigshot_: I never seem to know when to be pedantic here and not. It's usually apparent when I get corrected, though. :-) 21:47:52 *Sikander* always thought it was called lisp-1 and lisp-2. 21:47:55 Actually, I think I'm wrong. 21:48:02 Lambda IS a macro, in my running lisp 21:48:46 clhs lambda 21:48:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_lambda.htm 21:48:47 (macroexpand '(lambda (x) x)) => #'(Lambda (X) X) 21:48:48 mogunus1 [n=marco@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:48 billstclair: Notice how his example contained SETQ, not SET!. So it's definitively not Scheme (modulo r1rs, and perhaps r2rs?) 21:48:50 The terms are `Lisp-1 and `Lisp-2'; prefixing the number is probably a mental artefact of Brian Smith's `3-Lisp'. 21:49:11 Isn't CL a Lisp-1 and Scheme a Lisp-2? 21:49:17 Bigshot_: Any reason you're not using SETF? 21:49:34 no reason. 21:50:36 Other way around, Elench. 21:50:43 tmh: Pedantry can sometimes complicate matters unnecessarily, resulting in confusion of newcomers. 21:50:46 Arse 21:51:06 I thought CL had one namespace shared between functions and values, and this made it a Lisp-1 21:51:12 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 21:51:30 Nope, in retrospect, i'm talking nonsense and will now be quiet, sorry all 21:51:31 You're kidding us? 21:52:19 What's next, CL got hygienic macros, too? (Still have to read Costanza's paper, although I'm sceptical that it's not just some academic thing.) 21:52:41 Cue Pink Floyd 21:53:47 I'm a retard, it's not deliberate 21:54:28 hefner: ping 21:54:41 pong 21:54:52 I have used slime-indentation and then disabled it when i experience some slowness. What's your opionion on it? Is is recommended to use? 21:55:21 hefner: could you test the latest version of my patch(http://common-lisp.net/~sionescu/cffi-grovel.patch) ? 21:55:55 sure thing. 21:56:41 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:03 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:00:14 Pegazus [n=eagaw@host250.190-224-109.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 22:02:17 willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 22:04:28 fe[nl]ix: seems to work with sbcl. ccl64 locks up in close-foreign-library for some reason. 22:06:04 *hefner* doesn't understand why he has to hit control-d three times to get ccl to quit from the repl. 22:06:57 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:09:09 -!- Edico_ [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:11:24 -!- TDT [i=dthole@dhcp80ff869b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:12:06 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:12:43 willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 22:14:03 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:15:49 -!- willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:16:17 willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 22:17:31 -!- willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:17:44 this looks like a bug in CCL which I'm not too interested in chasing. 22:18:01 willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 22:18:47 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:19:18 -!- willb2 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:20:07 hefner: #+ccl (setf ccl:*quit-on-eof* t) 22:21:55 that's almost good, but I like the clisp/sbcl behavior of being able to hit control-d to back out of the debugger one level 22:22:33 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:22:38 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:22:48 hefner, perhaps the intent is to prevent you from losing everything if you accidentally type ^D. 22:23:10 -!- Mazingaro [n=tetsuja@host29-230-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:23:14 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:23:39 Who in his right mind accidentally types ^D? 22:23:45 I'm sure I'd find such a feature indispensable given time to adapt. 22:23:54 anyway, I think ccl's close-shared-library is broken. it certainly looks strange. 22:24:13 i use ^D alot 22:24:31 accidentally? 22:24:36 alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:48 seldomly 22:25:21 hefner: (load-foreign-library "libz.so") then (close-foreign-library *) works here: ccl 1.3 release, linux/x86 22:25:41 interesting 22:25:49 ..or if not that then shlib-containing-address, or just the whole idea of whatever it is they're trying to accomplish by repeatedly closing the library until their shlib-containing-address can't find it anymore 22:25:50 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-f16862ea01f681f7] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:25:52 (close-foreign-library :libosicat) hangs here too 22:26:41 tcr, I remember you've had a magic incantation speeding up slime output. Something to do with redirected I/O, or something.. 22:26:41 hefner: would you be so kind to report this bug upstream ? 22:26:44 *hefner* files this under "reasons ccl is insane", right under "never seems to work with my version of slime" 22:27:37 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-89-252.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:27:47 heh 22:27:51 I accidentally type ^D when my brain thinks `delete character', often after M-b and such. 22:28:01 *rsynnott* has a soft spot for ccl; openmcl was the first lisp I used 22:28:40 jao [n=jao@52.Red-83-43-32.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:51 -!- willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:29:02 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:29:06 rsynnott: be careful, bugs like to hit you harder in soft spots ^_^ 22:29:17 willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 22:30:11 was using it the other day for the first time in a while; its compilation feels so wonderfully fast 22:31:28 I'll admit to almost liking CCL, even if I think it's mostly pointless and not compellingly different from SBCL 22:32:00 at least CCL enables threads by default. 22:32:39 though it is absolutely, amazingly unusable without slime 22:33:08 as opposed to sbcl, which is simply quite unusable without slime 22:36:41 mkfort_ [n=mkfort@68-189-164-209.dhcp.spbg.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:39:06 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.194.237] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:39:51 Riastradh: that makes sense. It hadn't occurred to me, as I still use the delete key. 22:39:54 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-89-252.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:40:30 Also I sometimes hit ^D too many times when coming out of the debugger after nested errors. 22:43:00 -!- willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:43:31 willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 22:46:07 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:04 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:48:39 -!- mkfort [i=tffEZqTa@68-189-164-209.dhcp.spbg.sc.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:55:48 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-146.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 22:56:19 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:59:47 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 23:05:26 -!- jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has quit [] 23:05:27 -!- willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Success] 23:06:09 willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 23:07:58 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:11:40 ( defun a ( y ) ( list y 'y ) ), ( setq e ( (lambda ( x ) x ) 'a ) ), (funcall e `à) gives (C Y) , can anyone tell me how this lambda works, calling lambda (c) gives c à 23:12:41 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:12:51 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 23:12:57 sorry it`s funcall e `c 23:13:52 does anyone know why sometime copy pasting replaces the keyboard keys with some other charsÉ 23:14:16 i am getting É instead of question mark because i copy pasted 23:14:49 willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 23:15:51 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 23:17:13 oh i got it -- funcall e `c is actually funcall a `c 23:17:35 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:03 -!- mdavid [n=mdavid@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:18:21 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-117-37.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 23:19:04 man i need to restart this chat client 23:19:08 brb 23:19:12 -!- Bigshot_ [n=BIG_SHOT@CPE002129abc864-CM001ac35cd4d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060215]"] 23:21:42 Bigshot_ [n=BIG_SHOT@CPE002129abc864-CM001ac35cd4d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:49 k back 23:21:53 -!- tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:21:55 ? 23:22:42 Demosthenex [n=demo@173.86.192.171] has joined #lisp 23:23:07 tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 23:24:53 -!- mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 23:29:18 -!- binrapt [i=void@unaffiliated/binrapt] has left #lisp 23:31:30 -!- willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:31:39 fvw [n=sdfpme@125.93.105.39] has joined #lisp 23:33:14 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 23:36:31 Bigshot_ pasted "lisp exercise" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83401 23:36:37 would anyone like to see my latest lisp gaming video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ritTkonPKYE 23:36:51 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 23:38:14 <_3b> Bigshot_: in CL, symbols can name both a function and a variable at the same time 23:38:16 jan247 [n=jan247@120.28.131.253] has joined #lisp 23:38:30 *Sikander* goes to see dto's latest lisp gaming video. 23:38:43 <_3b> Bigshot_: defun sets the function named by the symbol, setq changes the value of the variable named by the symbol 23:38:46 dto, very nice :) 23:38:51 -!- bhyde [n=Adium@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 23:39:38 <_3b> (b f 23:39:50 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D5D8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:39:50 <_3b> (b f) uses the function value of B 23:39:59 <_3b> (funcall b f) uses the variable value of B 23:40:08 ((((A (B))))) i get this answer 23:40:54 dto: nifty! 23:41:03 <_3b> Bigshot_: why don't you just do something liek (defun a () (print "called A")) instead of all teh complicated list stuff? much easier to see what is happening that way 23:41:14 *antoszka* is on gprs and can't watch the video ;( 23:41:27 ennen: :) 23:41:35 gprs 23:41:35 ? 23:41:42 *_3b* isn't even going to try to parse that code to see what it is doing :p 23:43:07 akirashinigami [n=akira@75-17-157-194.lightspeed.prsdwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:33 _3b you should parse it it will increase your lisp consciouness 23:43:43 dto: GSM modem. 23:43:48 ah. 23:44:15 Can barely open webpages without graphics. 23:44:54 -!- akirashinigami [n=akira@75-17-157-194.lightspeed.prsdwi.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 23:44:59 antoszka: not even edge? 23:45:30 dto: Pretty cool stuff 23:45:57 I would have thought just about all telcos had upgraded at this point; as far as I know it's usually just a software update for edge 23:46:10 rsynnott: Not where I am at the moment, unfortunately. 23:46:15 (3G may or may not require hardware replacement) 23:46:31 rsynnott: Perhaps it's a question of signal level, too. 23:46:50 shouldn't be usually, I think 23:47:23 *rsynnott* had home internet access by 3g for six months, while the phone company was pretending my building didn't exist 23:47:26 quite annoying 23:47:50 hm.. 23:48:05 though gprs would be far worse, of course... 23:48:29 _3b you there man? 23:48:39 The worst problem is that a single internet connection can totally choke other ones. 23:48:46 <_3b> Bigshot_: should i be? 23:48:55 Even though I have a SFQ queue on the ppp0 interface. 23:49:00 yeah assist me out with those simple lisp thingies 23:49:18 <_3b> Bigshot_: you need to work on responding to people helping you 23:49:30 Perhaps there's some queueing (and connections dying) somewhere outside of the kernel, too (say in my modem, or further out in the air). 23:49:36 <_3b> Bigshot_: i told you something that you appeared to be doing wrong or misunderstanding already 23:49:44 s/internet connection/TCP connection/ 23:49:55 <_3b> Bigshot_: i can't help you more unless you say whether you understand that, or if that is or isn't the problem 23:50:17 antoszka: is this your main internet connection? 23:50:22 i understand that (b f) takes the function and (funcall b 'c) takes the value of the variable b 23:50:55 rsynnott: No, luckily I'm out in the country on a holiday (of sorts). Got 20mbps catv connection at home :) 23:51:06 ah, yep, that sounds saner 23:51:17 (gprs roaming? eek, could be expensive) 23:52:09 No, no roaming. Even though the EU has put some limits on data roaming rates recently it's still hellishly expensive. 23:52:39 have they? Last I heard they were still in the 'reports suggesting action' stage 23:52:40 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 23:53:13 Thought they did. Not 100% sure. 23:53:16 my phone company charges 50 euro for 100mb when roaming, and that's IF you pay in advance, otherwise it's more 23:53:22 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 23:53:29 I know a report on the subject came out recently 23:53:29 Sick. 23:53:37 but don't think they've actually done anything about it 23:54:15 (my old phone company had free roaming, but only in the UK, Singapore, Australia, Denmark and one or two other seemingly randomly chosen countries) 23:54:35 Certainly so for voice-calls. Been getting all those SMS's from my telco about how wonderfully low the rates are now :) 23:54:41 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:00 Singapore is nice, apparently. 23:55:05 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.51.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:55:08 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:55:26 really? 23:55:32 rwanderley [n=user@189.77.29.25] has joined #lisp 23:56:23 demmel_ [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-090-033.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:29 From what I read, a fascinating place. 23:57:19 most of what I've heard of it involves corporal punishment and hating gay people 23:57:50 These are the dark sides :) 23:59:05 rsynnott: and prison for chewing gum 23:59:59 Nah, for spitting it on the pavement.