00:03:16 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@dhcp-11-166.ucsc.edu] has quit [] 00:04:02 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-122-177.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 00:04:14 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:19 Demosthenes [n=demo@204.52.135.62] has joined #lisp 00:05:00 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-66-250.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:09:26 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B1BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:10:27 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:12:55 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@139.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:13:56 commmmodo [n=commmmod@dhcp-11-166.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 00:14:49 kidd [n=kidd@111.Red-193-152-161.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:56 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 00:16:24 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:17:49 -!- krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-63-195.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:18:21 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 00:20:06 btw, anyone delivered a desktop app with open source lisp to win32? 00:21:20 *p_l* was considering using CCL + custom C launcher to select 32/64bit runtime 00:22:35 p_l: I thought CCL didn't run on win64 yet 00:22:57 p_l: I've used clisp to do that once. 00:23:36 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 00:23:40 luis: CCL 1.3 works (and I haven't got any random crashes yet) 00:23:55 according to Clozure's website, 64bit is actually more stable 00:24:11 I can't test 32bit for now, though 00:24:23 or is it the 32bit runtime that won't run on win64? 00:24:29 (32bit runtime doesn't work on win64) 00:24:32 right 00:24:44 that's why I'm adding a custom C launcher for that 00:25:24 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-156-195.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:26:17 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["Always code as if the guy who ends up maintaining your code will be a violent psychopath who knows where you live."] 00:26:24 though said desktop app might in the end not come through 00:26:41 what you gonna use for GUI? 00:27:17 hypno: I was thinking of testing GTK, maybe porting McCLIM to WPF or using WPF directly through RDNZL 00:27:22 maybe there h-to-ffi and all that works on windows too. in that case i guess it will be pretty trivial. 00:27:42 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-181-244.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:28:05 I recall seeing some win32 GUI examples for CCL ffi, but I don't know how extensive it is (things like callbacks etc.) 00:28:26 or maybe I'll just buy Corman and somehow shoehorn Unicode into it 00:29:00 I can buy it for ~$125 00:30:25 what about ECL? 00:31:03 ecl is an option, but i think you are gonna have way more work with the interop. part with that. :/ 00:31:59 hefner: also possible. I had the nice experience of it actually working with cl.exe, so I can nicely link to C libraries 00:32:19 but desktop app is low-priority now 00:32:34 first, I need to finish database and website, then start building on that 00:32:47 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:32:51 visual basic? 00:33:07 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:36 ... from where did you get visual basic? 00:33:51 You could write your desktop app with it! Or Delphi. =p 00:34:20 lol. I'd rather go with .NET in such case. It's just that the server side is gonna be in either CL, Erlang or Ruby 00:34:32 .net? bah. no one downloads that .net runtime =p 00:34:50 hefner: it's included in target environment 00:35:05 I don't really care about supporting systems that don't have it ;P 00:35:27 i hear the new /modern/ alternative is F#. you really should use it. 00:35:31 *hypno* ducks 00:36:00 F# is quite nice, but for a GUI app C# would be enough. I'd still prefer CL, though :D 00:36:26 maybe with some of preprocessing on data done in F# 00:37:35 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-239-87.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:37:35 C# and F# and all that shit /really/ starts wearing me out quick. wading through tons os MS documentaion. i always feel trapped when i do such stuff. i feel like a company uber suite. 00:38:06 heh 00:38:20 I still prefer working with Visual Studio than cygwin ;-) 00:39:07 -!- dysinger [n=tim@166.129.228.29] has quit [] 00:39:09 for the server side, Ruby has good support for such things? 00:39:31 hypno: I'm considering using Merb + DataMapper (or maybe Sequel) as ORM 00:40:05 i know Erlang has some nice stuff for that and it's seemingly very nicely packaged, but the language itself makes me less than happy. hard call, really. 00:40:19 dysinger [n=tim@71-20-231-3.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:37 hypno: there's always LFE :) 00:42:32 yeah, but nah. it's still under development, with api changes, etc right? 00:43:53 been there, done that. php 3.18 -> php 4.0. what a fucking depression that was. 00:44:38 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 00:45:36 hypno: well, I can always rollback on Erlang proper and use that 00:45:48 but it's interresting because i am in a similiar position. a server/client app. and i'm thinking of SCL or Erlang for server side and just plain java for client. 00:47:06 hypno: in my case I've got some stuff that I'd clearly prefer to separate, however all parts are rather closely related. And then we would like to give some special support for bigger clients, that might appreciate bulk data transfers with desktop tools 00:50:00 hmm. well, does that have much impact on your language chooice tho? 00:52:43 na [n=na@dhcp-11-166.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 00:53:04 Hey 00:53:48 -!- na [n=na@dhcp-11-166.ucsc.edu] has left #lisp 00:53:54 MWP_ [n=na@dhcp-11-166.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 00:53:57 hypno: just that I'd prefer to use CL and not having to write a parser for Sexp-based upload protocol ;-) 00:54:03 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:38 Hello! 00:55:03 p_l: heh, that is /exactly/ my reason also. sepxs + clos/specializers and the protocol issue is all over. :) 00:56:00 p_l: in my case, the app might be marketable for mobiles, which makes it less than appropriate tho. 00:57:19 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:57:54 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:48 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 01:00:23 can anyone help me implement floyd warshall into lisp? 01:01:28 Floyd Warshall? 01:01:37 yea 01:02:08 I mean the shortest path algorithm by Floyd 01:02:38 dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:45 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 01:03:05 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:03:18 sellout- [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:39 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@dhcp-11-166.ucsc.edu] has quit [] 01:06:50 Hm... in slime, is there a way to go back to the last command (like pressing the up arrow in bash, clisp, python, etc.)? 01:07:27 <_3b> M-p ? 01:07:27 you mean lisp? 01:08:23 -!- MWP_ [n=na@dhcp-11-166.ucsc.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 01:09:17 *Xach* http://www.cliki.net/floyd-warshall 01:10:32 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-ed04382c04f68996] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:11:29 -!- dto` is now known as dto 01:13:00 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-122-177.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:13:51 Thanks _3b 01:15:59 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:37 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:18:06 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.211] has joined #lisp 01:20:02 hypno: there's some Lisp-to-Java thing 01:20:40 hypno: and if it's not MIDP but something more feature-rich, then clojure might work too 01:21:36 -!- ausente is now known as dalton 01:22:04 yeah. i think i need a lot of java interfacing tho, in which case i think it gets even messier with clojure (which i dont know or really care about). 01:22:55 can also of course go with different versions (mobile/pc, etc). 01:24:33 -!- wlr [n=walt@65.96.92.150] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:27:25 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:35 hypno: clojure-to-java is rather easy, it's the other way around that I recall harder, but I haven't played much with clojure 01:34:39 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:38:56 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:39:42 djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:31 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 01:49:13 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-180-104-215.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:44 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 01:52:12 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@204.52.135.62] has quit ["leaving"] 01:52:20 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@24.21.76.57] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:53:19 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:54:41 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has quit [] 01:57:46 dialtone 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[n=tim@71-20-231-3.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:45:12 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-0776bb83cbeb25cd] has joined #lisp 02:45:52 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-0776bb83cbeb25cd] has quit [Client Quit] 02:46:42 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-c226ee203e1f02ef] has joined #lisp 02:51:39 -!- timchen119 is now known as nasloc__ 02:51:53 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 02:57:41 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has left #lisp 02:57:43 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 03:06:57 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:14:04 jlf` [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-67.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:16:11 vng [n=demen@123.20.3.137] has joined #lisp 03:28:30 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-208-138.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 03:28:54 can i do this? mapcar #'lambda(x) (cond (t (lambda(cdr x)))? 03:29:03 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:29:10 make recursive call to lambda? 03:29:38 you can, you just need a fixed point combinator 03:30:05 what? 03:30:09 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-23.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:30:11 fixed point combinator? 03:30:24 yes, that's what i said 03:30:24 Bigshot_: the Y combinator, to be specific, should do the job. 03:30:57 Bigshot_: now having said that, why would you possibly want to do that? 03:31:07 what is a combinator? 03:31:21 no, what's on second 03:31:44 i want to flatten a list 03:32:01 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.194.252] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:32:10 (a b (c d) e) => (a b c d e) 03:32:24 i thought you wanted to create a recursive function using only anonymous functions... your specs are not very clear. 03:32:36 kids learn that in kindergarten 03:32:43 Bigshot_: what book are you learning to use lisp? 03:32:49 wilensky :) 03:32:55 using to learn* 03:33:08 it doesn't give this exercise 03:33:50 Bigshot_: you mean Common LISPcraft? 03:33:56 yeah how is it? 03:34:04 23 years out of date. 03:34:16 minion: tell Bigshot_ about that-dead-sexy-book 03:34:17 Bigshot_: please look at that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 03:34:36 ok now what's a fooking combinator 03:34:48 What's a google you ask? 03:37:40 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 03:49:08 drewc: is it possible to flatten a list using mapcar? 03:49:36 ugh, emacs's changelog processing doesn't like my name 03:50:39 roadtrip [n=roadtrip@c-67-180-185-76.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:41 Bigshot_: what do you think? and why? 03:56:11 cl-newb [n=john@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:06 Bigshot_: those questions beg for this. Have you read your SICP today? ;-) 03:57:28 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:58:26 p_l: you tell me if yes then i'll try if no then i'll abandon :P 03:59:33 Bigshot_: figure it out for yourself might actually help you learn something. 04:00:15 clhs mapcar 04:00:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm 04:01:06 Bigshot_: the spec is very clear on what mapcar does. Your mission, should you chose to accept it, is to figure out if what mapcar does is in any way compatible with what you want to do. 04:02:05 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:03:16 seems like the answer is No. 04:03:38 how come? 04:03:49 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 04:06:20 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:07:10 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has quit [] 04:07:14 Bigshot_: the next question is : is it possible to flatten a list using any of the map* functions? Why? (not?). 04:09:16 mapcar and mapc are similar, maplist and mapl are similar latter makes use of could-er former is iterates through the whole list 04:09:46 s/is// 04:11:01 could you repeat that using proper grammar, sentence structure, and punctuation? I have no idea what you just said. 04:11:31 *drewc* cracks a cider ... mmmm Sir Perry's 04:11:52 hehe well in short map* are good for filtering and not for fooling around 04:12:37 'filtering' no, map* are good at mapping. For filtering you probably want remove*. 04:12:58 *bombshelter13_* wonders what the correct function to use for 'fooling around' is. 04:12:59 Bigshot_: I'm not sure if any of map functions are the answer... for flattening a *lisp* list, I'd play around with car and cdr 04:13:09 for fooling around, you can't beat PROG 04:13:27 Bigshot_: possibly with tail-recursive function (or emulated tail recursion, god bless PAIP for including that) 04:14:31 p_l: why tail recursive? for most lists the most simple recursive implementation is fine... in fact, that's usually why FLATTEN is taught... simply for the 'aha' moment when the student realized that recursion is needed. 04:14:48 so what are map* good for? 04:14:52 can flattering be expressed as an iterative recursion? 04:14:58 drewc: I noticed that I'm anal on memory usage, sometimes ;) 04:15:43 so if I get to keep it recursive but not grow the stack, it's win-win for me :) 04:15:50 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.251.206] has joined #lisp 04:15:53 Bigshot_: mapping, of course. That is to say, applying a function to the items in a list. 04:16:40 p_l: for a beginner, the ability to TRACE a function is probably significantly more important than using tail recursion, which doesn't actually exist in CL after all. 04:16:58 stassats: yes, of course. 04:17:22 drewc: not so straightforward then 04:17:31 stassats: no, not at all. 04:18:07 drewc: still, I prefer if compiler can reduce it to tail-recursion :) 04:18:18 p_l: i prefer common lisp! :) 04:18:41 drewc: iirc SBCL does optimize tail recursion, so again, win-win! :D 04:18:55 p_l: and it also doesn't .. lose lose 04:19:05 i prefer _my_ time, i can write non tail-recursive flatten in 30 seconds 04:19:07 it's up to you to figure out when :) 04:19:13 Do be careful to distinguish a compiler optimization from a language pragmatics guarantee, p_l. 04:20:03 -!- roadtrip [n=roadtrip@c-67-180-185-76.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:20:04 Riastradh: I know. I don't try to assume tail recursion in CL. I do remember (somehow) example of how to write said optimization by hand, if needed 04:20:30 I certainly wouldn't use it for looping, though. I kinda like LOOP :P 04:21:48 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:23:05 p_l: so, can you write a tail recursive flatten? 04:23:31 *drewc* plays with writing FLATTEN using PROG :) 04:23:56 stop fooling around :) 04:24:03 stassats: right now, probably not. I could play around after writing down my nebulous idea in grahic form on paper, but it's outside my interests right now 04:25:07 *p_l* now thinks of a way to avoid manually editing ASDF forms and of macros to ease burden of writing all those persisted classes 04:26:40 dysinger [n=tim@71-20-231-3.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:23 *stassats* found tr-flatten, it uses its own stack 04:28:27 *p_l* thinks of using cl-walker to programmatically edit ASDF defsystem forms 04:29:18 p_l: you're probably doing it wrong. what exactly are you trying to achieve that has made you think of such a convoluted idea? 04:29:24 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:29:34 drewc: you mean with ASDF or with macros? 04:29:44 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:29:50 likely both, but lets start with ASDF 04:30:07 drewc: well, I was kinda wishing of adding some functions to SLIME 04:30:25 ... 04:30:27 regarding both package export lists and asdf files 04:31:05 functions that do what exactly where does the code-walker come in? 04:31:17 missed a ? after exactly :) 04:31:31 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 04:31:33 Bigshot_'s grammar has worn off on me! :) 04:31:56 drewc: I wanted to read and write down ASDF files, especially without actually loading them into running image and edit them through swank 04:31:59 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest19869 04:32:28 p_l: why? 04:32:47 and my memory (confirmed by quick look at website) served to me that cl-walker had support for manipulating lisp code as clos objects, along with getting a sexp back 04:33:12 don't worry about it drewc enjoy your cider ;) 04:33:20 -!- I_Like_TurTles is now known as Ephifone 04:33:29 roadtrip [n=roadtrip@c-67-180-185-76.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:43 Bigshot_: :D 04:33:45 drewc: I was kinda thinking of going like that: make a new dir, visit a lisp file, call function that adds apriopriate definitions to ASDF file for current system 04:34:02 p_l: how does it discover dependencies? 04:34:35 drewc: think of how redshank's defpackage helper works 04:35:20 I'm not trying to do automatic dependency tracking, just a helper in place of hand editing :P 04:35:44 (mind you, it's 0533 and I feel entitled to talk whatever crazy idea comes my way) 04:35:56 p_l: so, why not use yasnippets, keyboard macros, or redshanks ASDF:DEFSYSTEM stubs? 04:37:03 drewc: redshanks stubs only supports writing defsystem from scratch, which isn't what I wanted. yasnippets I haven't used, neither keyboard macros 04:37:14 another option would be to write it in elisp 04:37:15 p_l: what do you get by not sleeping? 04:37:40 Bigshot_: If I knew the answer, I'd be a frickin' billionaire 04:38:13 sun shouldn't be rising till 0600, but it doesn't listen to me ;-) 04:38:31 it's one of the things I dislike about summer :P 04:38:35 p_l: may be you like getting high due to lack of sleep 04:38:45 p_l: for the one trivial thing you mentioned, elisp would be plenty. Me i'd just write a 'copy filename to clipboard as a (:file "") form, open closest .asd' function and use C-y 04:39:58 p_l: though, in my experience with lisp, i don't actually spend a lot of time editing .asd files, so i wouldn't bother. 04:40:15 -!- dysinger_ [n=tim@71-20-231-3.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:40:56 drewc: I was thinking from the pov of freshly started project. I guess I kinda got habit of creating many source files from certain web frameworks that used an automatic loader ;-) 04:42:29 jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 04:42:47 p_l: again, i don't find that writing asdf files is the bottleneck. I create a lot of small source files, but generally don't stop to add them to the .asd until i bounce my lisp image. 04:43:23 'automatic loader' .. i don't even see how that would work... maybe something in macroexpand-hook? 04:43:54 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:44:54 and, there are _always_ files that depend on other files having been compiled/loaded.. so unless you also plan a lot of magic, you'll still be editing your .asd's by hand to get the deps right. i just don't see the utility myself. 04:45:41 -!- phearle [n=phearle@c-24-63-120-211.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:47:13 p_l: then again, i could be missing something fundamental, so you don't have to listen to me :P 04:48:07 drewc: as for automatic loader, it could work for certain cases (frameworks with defined source location scheme) and condition handlers (if implementation supports apriopriate conditions) 04:48:38 p_l: it's not that simple really. 04:49:00 cornucopic [n=r00t@117.97.11.49] has joined #lisp 04:49:18 -!- roadtrip [n=roadtrip@c-67-180-185-76.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:49:23 as for editing asdf files, i simply wondered about a tool to automate said editing to some extent 04:49:38 emacs is that tool :) 04:49:48 create an asdf-mode :) 04:49:56 hahaha 04:50:24 drewc: that's why I wanted to integrate it with slime, whatever implementation I went with :) 04:51:05 you want to point-click "this file depends on this, that on that"? 04:52:35 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@139.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 04:53:36 stassats: more like clickety-click of thinkpad keyboard, but yes ;-) 04:53:56 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@117.97.11.49] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:54:35 p_l: regardless, you don't need a code-walker to parse ASDF:DEFSYSTEM forms.. in fact it probably won't do what you expect, as you're going to be walking the expansion of ASDF:DEFSYSTEM .. that's what a code-walker does... walks code... :) 04:54:36 p_l: you are on lenovo? 04:55:23 dysinger_ [n=tim@71-20-231-3.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:33 p_l: if you just want a representation of the source code as lisp objects, well, that's what READ does :) 04:55:52 roadtrip [n=roadtrip@c-67-180-185-76.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:58 Bigshot_: R61i. As cheap as uni could get while still giving us something with "value of £600" ;-) 04:56:23 *drewc* has a lenovo SL300 04:56:31 -!- gnoo [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:56:36 I still need to replace the cpu to get some of my beloved features back 04:56:38 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-189-167.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:43 *stassats* has an r61i too 04:57:09 *Bigshot_* has X series tablet multi-touch 12.1'inch 04:57:14 hehe 04:57:26 since Acer is a jerk and won't release a BIOS with microcode update for Turion TL50 so I could run HyperVM on my old laptop 04:57:34 soon 04:57:44 wow, those r61i's are well priced! 04:57:46 -!- Guest19869 is now known as lexa_ 04:58:02 drewc: the case is truly good, but they have various faults 04:58:16 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest88559 04:58:43 p_l: what's a microcode? i know microkernel :P 04:58:45 like only PCMCIA, no SD card reader, no DVI, no firewire 04:58:49 -!- cl-newb [n=john@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:59:06 mine has firewire and sd card reader 04:59:19 Bigshot_: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=microcode 04:59:41 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-4-216.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:59:48 Bigshot_: microcode is "firmware" for cpu. some other hw also calls its firmware "microcode", usually it means that it's a kind of interpreter that is programmed with other code 05:00:07 you mean assembly code? 05:00:29 i don't know of anything micro then assembly 05:00:30 Bigshot_: no, it's usually written in a very specific code depending closely on actual physical design of cpu 05:00:31 gnoo [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:36 microassembly cde 05:00:37 code 05:00:55 as opposed to macroassembly? 05:01:01 Bigshot_: often it defines how machine code instructions are executed 05:01:07 add $p_l $someIq 05:01:13 stassats: no, meaning lower than machine code 05:01:19 stassats: careful, 'macro' is quite overloaded there :) 05:02:04 p_l: it's still machine code 05:02:06 p_l: you mean verilog etc? 05:02:25 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:02:39 Quadrescence [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #lisp 05:02:41 commmmodo [n=commmmod@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 05:02:47 -!- Guest88559 is now known as lexa_ 05:02:50 Bigshot_: did you read that link i just gave you? It explains it in more detail then is possible over IRC 05:02:54 Bigshot_: not that low. Just imagine an array indexed by instruction codes, containing definitions of how to drive execution units for every instruction that is covered by microcode 05:02:54 -!- jmbr_ is now known as jmbr 05:03:17 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest80818 05:03:27 that's one of the ways I had seen microcode run 05:04:44 MIPS 05:04:47 on KS10 microcode defined how to implement a 36bit cpu using several 4bit Am2900 bit slices 05:05:07 Bigshot_: MIPS made a big point of not being microcoded, like most "classical" RISCs 05:05:37 to bring this back on topic : http://www.unlambda.com/cadr 05:06:03 the emulator on that page will run the MIT lisp machine microcode, and on top of that lisp machine lisp 05:07:01 drewc: are both included? 05:07:07 included is the full implementation of zmacs! also, the mailing list archives in that archive are quite entertaining... especially the ones regarding the common lisp effor. 05:07:30 stassats: indeed.. i think all the pieces are available there... they were in 06 anyway. 05:07:46 drewc: btw, you have seen Maclisp's FFI? xD 05:07:47 unlike genera on linux, for which you still require genera :) 05:07:55 ok, i'll try that, hope it won't end in frustration like genera 05:08:20 stassats: there will be different frustrations i'm sure. 05:08:45 at least its sources are open 05:09:15 p_l: maclisp FFI? is there such a thing? 05:09:38 drewc: it kinda exists. Imagine writing fasls in assembly :> 05:09:46 that's not an FFI 05:10:26 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:10:31 drewc: it was more like writing a library in C for use in Python/Ruby/etc. 05:10:49 the first #\F in FFI being "Foreign". 05:10:59 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71-20-231-3.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:11:45 p_l: no, because it's not in C is it. It's more like writing low-level code for the lisp machine, innit. 05:11:51 drewc: well, they were written in MIDAS, and only by weird turn of events were also loadable as fasls. In theory, you could do the same with ECL, as it also uses standard object format for it's fasls 05:12:14 or, say, VOPs in SBCL 05:12:34 -!- roadtrip [n=roadtrip@c-67-180-185-76.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:12:42 http://up.update.uu.se/hack/rlpdtm <--- short example 05:13:19 (part of httpd for ITS) 05:13:52 -!- abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:13:52 on completely unrelated note - how the hell Nescafe manages to sell that shit as instant coffee? 05:14:04 dysinger [n=tim@71-20-231-3.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 05:14:19 -!- a-s` [n=user@92.81.146.45] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:14:21 roadtrip [n=roadtrip@c-67-180-185-76.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:14:30 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-41-17.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:14:52 drewc: though, it did give me some ideas for making it easier to create FFI definitions... the other way around 05:14:52 p_l: http://sbcl-internals.cliki.net/Adding%20VOPs and also the other pages on VOPs. 05:15:47 is there anyway to create a list with random integers? for make-sequence it only makes a list with all the "same" numbers. 05:16:07 drewc: and yes, VOPs are very interesting feature :) 05:16:07 i find adding assembly code in CCL easier 05:16:08 -!- Guest80818 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:16:27 (map-into (make-list 10) (lambda () (random 100))) 05:16:34 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 05:16:46 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest75331 05:16:46 (loop repeat 10 collect (random 100)) 05:17:49 cornucopic [n=r00t@117.97.117.80] has joined #lisp 05:17:54 map-into is better for vectors 05:18:19 indeed.. loop offers no good way to do it with vectors 05:19:17 stassats: got a link to some docs on ASM in CCL? I'd like to flip though. 05:19:20 through 05:19:40 *drewc* could just google it ... 05:20:22 i just looked at the sources for examples 05:21:02 yeah, that stuff is very nice and readable in CCL. 05:21:18 (whereas writing VOPs for SBCL seems a bit spooky) 05:21:22 -!- dysinger_ [n=tim@71-20-231-3.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:21:23 cool... i'll have to spend some time with a copy of the sources and some coffee 05:21:50 i have to port all my stuff to CCL as it is, might as well get to know it :) 05:22:07 so far I have found only defppclapfunction 05:23:00 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:23:26 hefner: mixalot looks great.. could it do (soft) real time given the right prodding? 05:23:57 -!- roadtrip [n=roadtrip@c-67-180-185-76.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:25:29 drewc: probably. I just hardcoded the alsa latency to 0.5 seconds and haven't experimented with how far I can safely reduce it. you might hit a point where you have to change the audio output to do nonblocking writes to alsa, to make more time for audio generation. 05:26:50 (I'll admit to not bothering to properly read the alsa docs, and just threw something together that worked ;) 05:26:56 hefner: cool, i'm looking forward to finding the time to play with it. Your docs are excellent BTW, good show! 05:27:21 drewc: thanks. I gotta work out a less tedious way of doing that than writing raw HTML. 05:27:35 hefner: org-mode is my new best friend 05:27:56 ah, I've been eyeing that since that guy's article about it came around on reddit. thanks for reminding me. 05:28:15 i use it to generate all my HTML these days, as well as track my time, manage my source etc. 05:28:33 it's actually one of those apps that has completely changed the way i work. 05:29:21 manage your source? 05:29:44 deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has joined #lisp 05:29:45 *stassats* never tried to bring organization into my life 05:29:46 i'll create a heading for a task, link to all the source files i'll need to complete that task etc 05:30:00 ah 05:30:39 any relevant emails and web sites as well... then the whole file gets published with time and future effort reports, and my clients can drill into as much detail as they see fit. 05:31:19 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@117.97.117.80] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:31:21 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:31:34 -!- Guest75331 is now known as lexa_ 05:31:34 i'm working on integrating a literate programming style with org-mode and actually writing sources in outlines. 05:32:03 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest15863 05:32:17 i used to use the leo editor before finding lisp, and there are some things i miss.. mostly having an easily readable outline of the code. 05:32:19 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 05:35:57 drewc: sorry for bothering you, but could you write down how you use org-mode? :D 05:36:54 -!- smoofra [n=user@cthulhu.elder-gods.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:37:05 smoofra [n=user@cthulhu.elder-gods.org] has joined #lisp 05:37:27 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:37:31 p_l: http://doc.norang.ca/org-mode.html <-- i just do what this guy does, only less so. 05:38:24 thx 05:39:24 drewc which distro of linux? 05:39:26 note: that webpage itself was written in org-mode, as is the org-mode homepage... it's very good at authoring html docs 05:39:29 do you use? 05:39:46 Bigshot_: i've been using debian for 11 years or so. 05:39:52 oh boy oh boy 05:39:58 which X do you use? 05:40:06 the one that apt-get installs 05:40:14 *p_l* wanted to admire such long time then noticed that it's 2009 already 05:40:35 i mean which desktop environment do you use drewc? 05:40:47 emacs? 05:40:52 Bigshot_: desktop environment? 05:41:01 yeah xfce, kde, gnome? 05:41:05 Desktop Environment? whazzat? ;-) 05:41:05 *hefner* grins 05:41:06 clim-desktop! :D 05:41:28 urxvt? :D 05:41:36 i can't stand linux GUI too primitive with plethora of settings 05:42:12 Bigshot_: i use stumpwm to place emacs windows on the screen. 05:42:35 drewc are you a geek with biggg glasses? 05:42:46 Bigshot_: nay, i 05:42:49 Bigshot_: you are going over thin ice here ;-) 05:42:54 i'm a sailor with a big cock! 05:43:00 Bigshot_: I use XFCE, it is light without being minimal 05:43:22 got to put something in that big pit 05:43:28 drewc: on a sailing vessel with a hundred men... 05:43:36 -!- deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has quit [] 05:43:50 pstickne: nay, just me and the wife and the ferrets. 05:44:00 aye, those ferrets! 05:44:02 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has quit [Success] 05:44:14 stinky little buggers 05:44:15 drewc: do they learn to code lisp already? 05:44:19 ssh icbm-command@acc.norad.mil 05:44:23 oh, wrong window ;-) 05:44:34 wait, you forgot password 05:44:39 stassats: they _have_ committed code, but it didn't compile. 05:44:40 hahah 05:45:01 stassats: it's handled by special authentication handler 05:45:18 they broke the bilge! 05:45:31 hefner: lol! :D 05:46:03 sailing + programming + ferret jokes are my favorite... so very rare. 05:46:06 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-4-216.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:38 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 05:50:23 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.251.206] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:52:17 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 05:56:52 schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-022-004.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:40 ejs [n=eugen@233-38-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:01 -!- jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:00:17 *stassats* got CADR running, had to rotate display 06:00:33 stassats: yeah, i had that same issue :) 06:01:02 stassats: it's very cool non? 06:01:17 yeah 06:05:59 so who's going to write the first CADR twitter client? 06:06:30 you'd have to write a web library first 06:06:34 :P 06:06:54 and IP stack, I guess 06:07:07 no, it probably has a IPv4 thing 06:07:10 I would guess 06:07:17 it has chaosnet 06:07:19 that's why I didn't say that :P 06:07:43 CADR probably only has chaosnet. 06:07:59 ah. 06:08:40 ``Bug:121353 - "Request for new platform: MIT CADR" status:RESOLVED resolution:CANTFIX severity:trivial'' <--- ROTFL 06:09:21 that was gentoo, btw :D 06:10:11 bummers 06:10:28 ``Bug:121330 - "Free beer for everyone!" status:RESOLVED resolution:CANTFIX severity:normal'' <--- next to MIT CADR request 06:10:31 you could hack the FILE server to post things to twitter... 06:10:44 *drewc* checks it out 06:10:54 -!- elderK [n=elderK@222-152-95-210.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [] 06:11:18 p_l: were those posted on an april 1st, by any chance 06:11:32 it's funny to have wide-screen rotated 90° 06:11:45 abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 06:12:06 ramus`: 2006-02-02 06:12:12 guess not 06:12:47 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:14:38 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 06:14:40 Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 06:18:10 -!- Guest15863 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 06:18:34 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:19:02 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest42834 06:20:19 -!- ejs [n=eugen@233-38-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:21:31 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 06:23:31 CADR? 06:24:53 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:25:05 oh, it uses base-8 06:25:13 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 06:25:52 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:26:12 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-25-32.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 06:26:59 minion: memo for antifuchs: What about ECL boinkmarks? :) 06:27:00 Remembered. I'll tell antifuchs when he/she/it next speaks. 06:29:04 hawkbill pasted "compile-op nil" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82889 06:29:31 scroll up for the actual error 06:30:22 i have a hunchentoot based code that was working fine till a few days back. then i moved it to some other box, and it has stopped working. i think i've missed installing some project through clbuild. the error message in http://paste.lisp.org/+1RYH isn't too useful. can someone kindly help me? 06:30:53 hawkbill: see my message above 06:32:24 hawkbill: what stassats said. there's an error in temp-init 06:32:32 and good evening folks 06:33:15 thanks for the pointer guys. lemme try removing/commenting stuff from temp-init 06:33:38 well, what's the error? 06:34:36 i couldn't comprehend the error msg, but i commented out the temp-init part from the asd file, and it's working 06:34:43 so now i know what's broken 06:34:57 now need to figure out what exactly in that file is wrong, and go ahead from there 06:35:06 thanks again stassats, slyrus 06:35:16 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:35:46 hawkbill: we can help you only if you provide your error message 06:37:44 stassats: i'm not able to reproduce that error now. lemme clean up the environment and see if i can reproduce it 06:37:51 -!- free_thinker [n=willijar@134.151.144.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:37:51 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:38:33 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:33 is there a standard func to, given any list (a b c ...), return (and a b c ...)? 06:39:07 nopes, still not reproducible (i deleted all the *fasl files in the code directory). now i'm getting a more meaning-full error 06:39:20 to return the last element if all elements are true? 06:40:37 s/true/non-nil/ 06:41:04 stassats: or something similar; I don't care much about what the return value is beyond its function as a bool. 06:41:22 (every #'identity '(a b c |...|)) 06:41:47 or (notany #'null ...) 06:42:00 ah, thanks 06:42:14 plage [n=user@58.186.146.148] has joined #lisp 06:42:17 Good afternoon. 06:42:44 dysinger_ [n=tim@71-20-231-3.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 06:43:55 kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:19 while I'm at it, is there any more concise way to concat some strings than concatenate? 06:46:01 schmx [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 06:46:03 -!- schmx [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Client Quit] 06:46:23 Ralith: yes: (c "a" "b" "c") --> "abc" 06:46:35 oh, handy 06:46:41 just define C 06:46:47 ... 06:46:49 that's cheating :P 06:46:51 (defun c (&rest x) (apply (function concatenate) 'string x)) 06:46:57 Ralith: no that's programming. 06:47:07 meh meh meh. 06:50:22 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:50:44 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-40-3.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:51:12 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-84-151.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 06:51:22 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Client Quit] 06:52:13 anyway, today night I finally got something that resembles written spec! yahoo! Time to make a demo! :D 06:52:43 hmm, emacs didn't come far from zmacs 06:52:52 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:55 *Ralith* writes another bit of code and finds it working first try 06:52:56 <3 lisp 06:53:25 good morning 06:53:31 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-84-151.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 06:53:45 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Client Quit] 06:53:55 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-84-151.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 06:54:25 schmx [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 06:54:27 -!- schmx [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Client Quit] 06:54:30 morning 06:54:39 hello #lisp 06:55:18 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 06:58:28 frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@wafer.futurs.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 07:00:08 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:01:01 vy [n=user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has joined #lisp 07:01:26 hello mvilleneuve, hello schme 07:01:48 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 07:01:49 are there any CFFI based gtk bindings out there? 07:03:06 oh, there's one... gtk-cffi 07:04:29 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:06:25 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71-20-231-3.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:06:39 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:09:14 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 07:11:37 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:15:42 -!- schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-022-004.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:20:09 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:22:15 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:25:25 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 07:26:50 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:27:05 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-23-143.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:27:31 KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-0-147.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:27:34 dysinger [n=tim@71-20-231-3.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 07:29:08 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-20-97.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:31:49 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-4-216.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:34:58 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 07:35:40 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-25-32.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:36:09 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 07:36:43 -!- A_anekos is now known as anekos 07:37:18 -!- KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-0-242.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:37:20 -!- Guest42834 is now known as lexa_ 07:37:49 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest85302 07:38:01 djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:35 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-189-167.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:48:45 -!- dysinger_ [n=tim@71-20-231-3.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:48:46 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@24.21.76.57] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:49:04 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:50:26 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:51:32 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-4-216.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:51:55 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 07:52:16 I was just working in a screen session within a screen session. That gets confusing fast. 07:52:35 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 07:52:44 Just need a strong A key. 07:53:14 aerique: set two different escapes. 07:53:37 zmacs is really nice 07:54:02 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 07:54:07 aerique: but in fact, with _only_ two embedded screens, there's no problem because you just double the escape sequence to go to the second screen. Try with three or four, and try with circles ssh a / ssh b / ssh a... 07:54:22 *p_l* would like for his snap4 not to crash while trying to save world 07:54:54 Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 07:55:01 *stassats* used CADR emulator, it didn't crash 07:55:07 matimago: yeah i used the double escape but was indeed wondering how it would be with three nested sessions :) 07:55:19 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:55:37 just said once "file system fucked something" 07:56:34 plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.194.217] has joined #lisp 07:57:41 aerique: reminds me of the telnet song 07:58:28 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 07:58:44 *drewc* has libwebkit running inside sbcl 07:58:48 this is fun. 07:59:12 i was thinking about playing with webkit from lisp 07:59:32 drewc: how? 07:59:56 just through ffi or commonqt? 08:00:02 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:44 stassats: cffi to the gtk bindings of webkit 08:00:53 "It's wrong to require our users to reboot every week." <--- nice quote 08:02:34 Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 08:02:42 p_l: who said that? 08:03:56 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:05:26 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:05:49 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:05:51 http://alcor.concordia.ca/~smw/home/telnet_song.html 08:06:51 serichsen: awesome :) 08:09:07 carbocal` [n=user@75-119-234-173.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 08:10:17 -!- sellout- [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:10:17 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:10:17 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:10:17 -!- TekLok [n=TekLok@c-98-247-9-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:10:17 -!- carbocalm [n=user@75-119-234-173.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:10:17 -!- hypno [n=hypno@195.43.248.100] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:10:17 -!- p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:10:17 -!- guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:10:17 -!- jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:10:17 -!- johanbev [n=johanbev@230.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:10:17 -!- rbancroft [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:10:17 -!- deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:10:17 -!- michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:10:17 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:10:17 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:10:17 -!- kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.fr] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:10:17 -!- prip_ [n=_prip@host45-129-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:10:47 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-4-216.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:11:11 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@139.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:11:52 johanbev [n=johanbev@230.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:12:15 guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 08:12:25 jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has joined #lisp 08:12:26 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 08:12:34 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:13:01 kuwabara [n=kuwabara@84.14.121.138] has joined #lisp 08:17:12 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 08:17:18 serichsen: I can't find the exact source, found it quoted by someone 08:17:44 sellout- [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:44 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:44 TekLok [n=TekLok@c-98-247-9-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:44 prip_ [n=_prip@host45-129-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:17:44 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:44 michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has joined #lisp 08:17:44 deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 08:17:54 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:17:55 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:18:00 btw, apparently DART, one of most praised military AI projects, was deployed as prototype after 8 weeks of work... 08:18:10 (written in CL) 08:18:18 rbancroft [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:22 p_l: oo, neat! 08:18:25 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 08:18:41 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:53 hypno [n=hypno@195.43.248.100] has joined #lisp 08:19:35 Ralith: by 1995, it apparently saved enough money for DARPA to solidify AI investments - it paid for 30yrs of research 08:22:55 -!- Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:23:01 damn. 08:23:02 wassit do? 08:23:05 rudi_ [n=rudi@mail.ist.tu-graz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 08:23:11 nostoi [n=nostoi@85.Red-79-154-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:13 Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 08:23:18 Ralith: makes planning headaches smaller for NATO 08:23:32 sounds like a big deal. 08:23:58 -!- rudi_ is now known as rudi 08:24:13 yeah. I remember it being cited in my AI course, but I didn't knew it was written in CL or that it was so hastily deployed 08:26:45 this sort of thing should be collected into a Great Successes of CL page somewhere. 08:27:01 p_l: the best labor saving programs are often written hastily (and even on the side). 08:27:16 Ralith: you mean like http://wiki.alu.org/Success%20Stories ? 08:27:42 rudi: ok, in that case, this thing in particular should be collected. 08:27:47 nice page, though 08:27:54 if only there was a way to edit that page ... :/ 08:28:51 is there a way to register? 08:28:56 matimago: or written to play a game? :P 08:28:57 cuz there's a way to login, and it looks like a wiki 08:29:08 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:29:26 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.190.87] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 08:29:34 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.190.87] has joined #lisp 08:29:35 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:30:27 p_l: could you get us a link to that 08:30:32 lucydogen [n=Y@83.240.197.202] has joined #lisp 08:31:00 oh hey! 08:31:12 rudi: there's an edit link on the bottom 08:31:14 appears active. 08:31:17 :) 08:31:30 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 08:31:33 someone who knows more about DART should add it. 08:33:08 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@85.Red-79-154-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 08:37:47 dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 08:38:19 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:39:40 -!- dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:39:45 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_Analysis_and_Replanning_Tool 08:39:50 here's a wiki entry 08:40:34 dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 08:41:29 _8david [n=user@77-22-106-191-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:42:38 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:44:44 antoinevg [n=antoine@alonzo.artifactual.org.za] has joined #lisp 08:46:06 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:47:07 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:50:05 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:50:11 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 08:52:48 Adamant: there's a citation, so someone could grab said article, read it and write a wiki page 08:53:23 -!- dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:54:56 -!- gonzojive [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:58:05 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 09:00:30 chrls [n=chrols@h-60-151.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 09:01:32 -!- _8david [n=user@77-22-106-191-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:02:43 blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 09:03:45 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:04:11 -!- glogic [n=glogic@5ess.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:05:26 glogic [n=glogic@5ess.net] has joined #lisp 09:07:34 ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 09:15:47 -!- vng [n=demen@123.20.3.137] has left #lisp 09:18:09 -!- glogic [n=glogic@5ess.net] has quit ["leaving"] 09:19:40 -!- chrls [n=chrols@h-60-151.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 09:19:43 -!- enn [n=eli@codeanddata.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:19:43 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:19:43 -!- Dazhbog [n=sampo@geek.fi] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:19:43 -!- anekos [n=anekos@pl410.nas925.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:22:52 enn [n=eli@codeanddata.com] has joined #lisp 09:23:02 anekos [n=anekos@pl410.nas925.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:23:02 Dazhbog [n=sampo@geek.fi] has joined #lisp 09:24:23 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 09:24:42 a Wiki page about what? 09:24:51 -!- Guest85302 is now known as lexa_ 09:25:16 dys`` [n=andreas@p5B316DED.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:21 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest47607 09:25:53 lispm: DART 09:26:11 there is the Wikipedia page, what else do you want? 09:26:50 lispm: for it to be among Success Stories on ALU Wiki, that was what was mentioned in discussion 09:27:09 ah, is the ALU Wiki active again? 09:28:00 looks to be 09:28:02 I'm not sure. I know that drewc works on new version and old URL partially works 09:29:51 Hmm, I can't see a visual difference between internal Wiki links and external links on the ALU wiki 09:31:06 -!- dys` [n=andreas@p5B316B6F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:31:15 Ephifone2 [n=user7994@189-19-112-49.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 09:31:17 drewc is working on it? 09:31:30 then I can talk to him later about it.... 09:31:50 DART, I have the book chapter about DART at home 09:32:23 we had it referenced in, i think, first tutorial in "Grand Challenges of AI" course 09:33:15 -!- ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:33:43 the whole domain of planning system has several success stories 09:33:56 DART is probably the 'biggest' one 09:34:09 but there are other ones, like SPIKE 09:34:24 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@delroth.doesntexist.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:34:48 cdwillis [n=dwm@c-98-223-195-59.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:34:57 SPIKE is the planning system for the Hubble Space Telescope and used for several other telescopes 09:35:44 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:39:58 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-138-195.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:40:00 lispm: is it also written in Lisp? 09:41:49 yes 09:42:02 lots of planning systems are written in Lisp 09:43:31 http://www.stsci.edu/resources/software_hardware/spike/technicalPapers/spike-chapter3.pdf 09:43:56 good to hear. While I do know that CLIPS is kinda lisp-like, the amount of Java I had seen reeking out of research dept. was suffocating 09:46:08 -!- Ephifone [n=user7994@187.34.47.48] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:47:12 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:48:06 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-156-195.netcologne.de] has quit ["overheating"] 09:52:34 joswig [n=joswig@e177123051.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:52:49 -!- joswig [n=joswig@e177123051.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:54:59 ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 09:57:16 DART looks interesting 09:58:12 not the dart. 09:58:32 is there a version of 'time' that will actually return the elapsed time? 09:59:05 jewel_, no, but you could write one. 10:00:11 hm, n00b question alert... 10:00:31 is there a way to write long strings in a source file so that they don't make a line with 100 characetrs? 10:00:33 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 10:00:54 something like '\' in Ruby/Python 10:01:04 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177121045.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:01:13 ? 10:01:55 jewel_: use GET-INTERNAL-REAL-TIME ; have a look at: http://darcs.informatimago.com/lisp/clmisc/resource-utilization.lisp 10:02:20 Adlai: you can insert newlines in the middle of strings. 10:02:46 matimago, I'm trying to do the opposite: have a long string that doesn't have any newlines be broken up over multiple lines in my source code. 10:02:51 If you want to remove the newlines, you may use remove, or if you wanted to send the string to format anyways, you may use ~ newline 10:03:01 (format t "Hello ~ 10:03:05 (I could always just (concatenate 'string "abc" "def") but I'm looking for something shorter) 10:03:07 world") 10:03:19 ah ok. 10:03:19 -!- plage [n=user@58.186.146.148] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:03:23 Adlai: you may write a reader macro to have a shorted syntax. 10:03:37 Or just a macro. 10:03:53 well I'll give the ~newline thing a try first. 10:03:57 matimago: thanks 10:04:10 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-4fe070d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["bbl"] 10:04:29 #.(format nil "... ~NEWLINE ...") Check the options sometimes you want ~:NEWLINE or ~@NEWLINE... 10:05:50 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 10:05:54 hm, matimago, it's even better than you say; it ignores whitespace immediately afterwards too 10:06:35 clhs format 10:06:35 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_format.htm 10:06:43 -!- antoinevg [n=antoine@alonzo.artifactual.org.za] has left #lisp 10:06:52 Yes, lisp is good. 10:07:33 *Adlai* thinks minion should have a link to the clhs page on format control strings 10:07:41 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:48 (mainly because you can't get there with specbot, since he searches symbols) 10:07:57 or can you? 10:08:01 clhs format control string 10:10:17 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:11:41 testing: 10:11:47 minion, tell me about format-control 10:11:48 Adlai: direct your attention towards format-control: The syntax of format control strings is explained in detail at this page in the hyperspec: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm 10:12:16 please feel free to improve his exact wording. 10:12:17 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 10:12:53 him? I'da thought her or it. 10:13:03 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:13:26 -!- blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:14:00 lichtblau [n=user@77-22-106-191-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:14:09 minion, chant 10:14:09 MORE ABOUT DART 10:15:52 -!- ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:18:56 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 10:19:52 okflo [n=user@91-115-89-111.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 10:20:40 lol 10:22:47 Ppjet6 [n=ppjet@78.115.255.187] has joined #lisp 10:24:59 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:26:47 -!- Ppjet6 is now known as Pepe_ 10:28:15 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 10:30:16 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:30:55 minion, chant 10:30:56 MORE ABOUT DART 10:32:56 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 10:33:28 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:33:49 hi lism 10:33:51 llisp 10:33:56 lisp 10:34:00 ohwtf 10:34:48 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 10:39:13 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:39:46 antoni [n=user@64.pool85-53-35.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 10:41:05 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-c226ee203e1f02ef] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:42:10 ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 10:43:13 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 10:44:12 _8david [n=user@77-22-106-191-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:44:27 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:44:46 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-991a9b2a79282016] has joined #lisp 10:46:35 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 10:48:58 jmbr [n=jmbr@guest245.gti.ssr.upm.es] has joined #lisp 10:50:05 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-100-101.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:50:57 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:51:44 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:55:11 -!- lichtblau [n=user@77-22-106-191-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:56:27 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:58:17 -!- antoni [n=user@64.pool85-53-35.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:58:48 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:59:17 blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 11:00:43 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-53-236.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:01:04 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:02:54 -!- delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:07:08 artagnon [n=artagnon@unaffiliated/artagnon] has joined #lisp 11:07:46 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-180-104-215.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:08:40 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-2-34.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:08:57 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-0-147.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:09:25 rjack [n=rjack@milada.cs.unibo.it] has joined #lisp 11:10:23 I have a list of alists representing HTTP url GET parameters. I want to build a string from this like param1=val1¶m2=val2 ... but, if the cdr of a one of the cons pairs in the list is nil, I don't want it getting into the string 11:10:26 artagnon pasted "mapconcat" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82893 11:11:04 My existing code doesn't take care of the nil cdr. It puts and ¶m3=¶m4=val4 if val3 is nil 11:11:18 KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84.217.2.104] has joined #lisp 11:12:27 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 11:12:54 actually, it doesn't even do that... it screams that it was expecting a stringp but got a nil instead 11:13:05 -!- okflo [n=user@91-115-89-111.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:14:10 artagnon annotated #82893 "Blank string when nil" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82893#1 11:14:42 -!- rjack [n=rjack@milada.cs.unibo.it] has quit ["leaving"] 11:16:45 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:17:14 -!- ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:18:35 serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-156-195.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:18:48 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:20:07 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4c2a.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:21:09 (or (cdr param-pair) "") 11:21:13 since "" is always true 11:23:28 -!- Guest47607 is now known as lexa_ 11:23:48 rudi: ah, no wonder. Thanks :) 11:23:58 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest77242 11:25:43 -!- KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-2-34.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:26:31 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-131-93.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:27:01 [df]_ [n=df@bspencer.plus.com] has joined #lisp 11:28:45 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 11:29:05 -!- Guest77242 is now known as lexa_ 11:29:35 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest79781 11:31:30 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:31:42 -!- lucydogen [n=Y@83.240.197.202] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:31:48 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-991a9b2a79282016] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:32:40 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:33:13 -!- [df] [n=df@bspencer.plus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:34:05 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 11:35:50 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:39:59 -!- blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:40:09 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@guest245.gti.ssr.upm.es] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:41:06 -!- Guest79781 is now known as lexa_ 11:41:36 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest6589 11:42:01 demmel [n=demmel@91.12.48.113] has joined #lisp 11:43:09 what would you typically write if you want something like "convert to boolean" in CL? (when (...) t) works ofc, but is not overly expressive... 11:43:53 demmel: Any equality predicate will return a boolean. 11:44:00 demmel: (if (...)) 11:44:07 in rare cases i use (and ... t) 11:44:10 demmel: Just take the (...) out of the when form. 11:44:30 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-138.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 11:44:36 demmel: sorry, my bad 11:44:48 ignore that 11:45:03 i need the value of type BOOLEAN only if i need to store it somewhere or print 11:45:13 -!- artagnon [n=artagnon@unaffiliated/artagnon] has left #lisp 11:45:14 otherwise generalized boolean is enough 11:45:36 [df] [n=df@bspencer.plus.com] has joined #lisp 11:46:04 -!- Guest6589 is now known as lexa_ 11:46:06 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 11:46:31 -!- jewel_ is now known as jewel 11:46:34 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest40314 11:47:08 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-138.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 11:47:37 tmh: i want t or nil to ease debugging, for printing etc 11:49:04 -!- Guest40314 is now known as lexa_ 11:49:34 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest51580 11:50:05 -!- Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:50:48 Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 11:51:00 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-100-101.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:51:47 demmel: What is the test? 11:52:12 for example (eq 't 't) => T 11:52:13 -!- [df]_ [n=df@bspencer.plus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:52:14 (not (not something)) 11:52:20 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 11:52:23 and (eq 't 'm) => NIL 11:52:31 (not (null foo)) 11:52:36 tmh: (member ...) 11:52:45 demmel: Ah, 11:53:33 demmel: (listp (member ...)) 11:53:41 Scratch that 11:53:45 nil is a list 11:53:47 (listp nil) => T 11:53:51 clhs consp 11:53:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_consp.htm 11:54:24 reading that again makes an aditional t for the and form an obvious choice :) 11:54:27 how about using #'some instead of #'member? 11:55:20 stassats: Thanks, consp would work 11:55:44 -!- Guest51580 is now known as lexa_ 11:55:52 demmel: So, does (consp (member ...)) work? 11:56:14 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest93398 11:56:16 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-16.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:56:21 ZabaQ [n=johnc@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 11:56:52 tmh: i like that 11:56:59 serichsen: SOME can substitute MEMBER-IF, will return that element, and will return NIL if you are searching for NIL 11:57:06 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 11:57:27 err, will return T in the last part 11:58:03 demmel: Now you could wrap that in something like (defun bool-member (item list ...) (consp (member item list ...))) 11:58:09 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 11:58:24 Of course, the name should be more elegant than that. 11:58:26 (some #'identity '(nil 1 2 3 4)) => 1, (some #'null '(nil 1 2 3)) => t 11:59:33 oh well 11:59:40 tmh: so far i'm using it only once ;) 11:59:49 i forgot, it wasn't about looking for non-nil element 12:01:07 tmh: actually for my example and additional T at the end of the AND form is even better i think. but if i have just (member ...) i prefer the consp solution 12:01:37 -!- itze [n=itze@77-22-106-191-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:01:41 tmh: details, really :) 12:02:01 demmel: Sure, I use (AND ...) often. This is lisp, you're supposed to have your own solution. 12:02:41 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:02:50 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:03:02 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 12:03:31 tmh: thats whats so great and (but also horrible) about it. 12:05:39 demmel: That was a little overwhelming for me when I started lisp as well. The multi-paradigm aspect and flexibility meant I had to actually understand my problem well enough to apply the correct approach. 12:07:10 tmh: Very true. But it certainly allows for elegant solutions... 12:09:37 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:10:11 (defmacro any (item list &key key (test #'eql) (test-not #'eql)) `(and (member ,item ,list :key ,key :test ,test :test-not ,test-not) t)) 12:10:42 giving both :test and :test-not arguments to and leads to suffering 12:10:49 would member be happy with both test-not.. what rudi said 12:10:59 I'd suggest (when (...) t) rather than and, there. 12:11:03 sorry, s/and/member/ 12:11:35 rjack [n=rjack@milada.cs.unibo.it] has joined #lisp 12:12:25 dto` [n=user@98.118.1.212] has joined #lisp 12:12:46 stassats: i just replicated the default arglist 12:13:33 where did you find it? 12:14:49 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:15:42 clhs 17.2.1 12:15:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/17_ba.htm 12:15:56 stassats: in my minibuffer ;) 12:15:58 "The consequences are unspecified if both a :test and a :test-not argument are supplied in the same call to F." 12:16:04 serichsen: why is it a macro? 12:16:36 serichsen: why do you need T or NIL, and not just a generalized boolean? 12:17:07 c|mell [n=cmell@192.51.54.129] has joined #lisp 12:17:48 ok 12:18:00 housel_ [n=housel@193.34.25.51] has joined #lisp 12:18:14 -!- housel [n=housel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:18:43 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-53-236.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:18:51 (defmacro any (item list &key key test test-not) `(and (member ,item ,list :key ,key :test ,test :test-not ,test-not) t)) 12:18:59 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:19:55 well, nil isn't a function 12:20:29 dammit 12:20:53 how did they even implement that? 12:21:09 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp154.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 12:21:24 -!- dys`` [n=andreas@p5B316DED.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:21:47 (defmacro any (args) `(and (apply #'member ,args))) 12:21:56 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:22:22 -!- gnoo [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:22:48 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 12:23:44 (defmacro any (&rest args) `(and (apply #'member ,args))) 12:23:45 (defun any (item list &rest args &key key test test-not) (declare (ignore key test test-not)) (and (apply #'member item list args) t)) 12:23:56 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:24:30 stassats: but then the functionality of member is not fully replicated 12:24:46 are you lot bike-shedding or yak-shaving there? I can never tell them apart :) 12:24:53 can't it be both? 12:25:05 serichsen: why? 12:25:24 -!- Guest93398 is now known as lexa_ 12:25:28 stassats: ahh 12:25:32 stassats: now i see 12:25:54 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest54133 12:26:44 mantimago: you need it for printing, storing, ease of debugging etc... 12:26:49 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 12:26:49 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@x-132-204-254-43.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 12:27:18 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 12:27:19 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:27:36 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:29:01 antoni [n=user@50.pool85-53-34.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 12:29:03 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@89-138-171-11.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 12:30:18 -!- antoni [n=user@50.pool85-53-34.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:32:55 dys [n=andreas@p5B316DED.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:00 frodef [n=ffj@1.80-202-168.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:34:50 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:35:06 demmel: if you need to print a boolean value, don't you think that you would rather need something like: (format t (localized "Has good salary: ~:[No ~;Yes~]") (member job '(ceo footballer movie-star))) ? 12:35:39 matimago: not for debugging, no 12:35:53 demmel: do you know a lot of database who store a boolean as either NIL or T? In general, its char(1), and you need to (defun db-bool (gen-bool) (if gen-bool "Y" "N")) 12:35:56 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229080101.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:36:27 demmel: and for debugging, you have *print-length* and *print-depth*, and having the generalized boolean value can give you good hints in case of problems... 12:36:39 *stassats* stores NIL or T in class slots 12:37:01 gnoo [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:12 matimago: if i inspect my datastructure and one slot is supposed to be a boolean, then it being a huge list is not very expressive... 12:38:01 demmel: it will be more efficient to reduce it to a strict boolean when you store it, than while computing it. 12:38:22 -!- rjack [n=rjack@milada.cs.unibo.it] has quit ["leaving"] 12:38:34 (defmethod (setf my-flag) (v self) (setf (slot-value self 'my-flag) (not (not v)))) 12:38:44 matimago: using generalised booleans can also lead to space leaks 12:38:58 Yes. 12:39:43 matimago: as is said, i'm most concerned about debugging, not storing. And i don't really care about (that sort of) efficiency (yet) 12:40:31 demmel: then what's the problem with generalised booleans? They represent no less information than T/NIL. 12:41:12 pkhuong: they represent too much. thats the point 12:41:24 too much information for debugging. Interesting. 12:41:34 blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has joined #lisp 12:41:50 pkhuong: more is not always better, even in debugging 12:41:58 -!- Guest54133 is now known as lexa_ 12:42:04 elderK [n=elderK@222.152.95.210] has joined #lisp 12:42:26 pkhuong: the point is that you want only relevant info, not lots of stuff which doesn't matter 12:42:28 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest61913 12:42:32 -!- elderK [n=elderK@222.152.95.210] has left #lisp 12:42:45 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 12:43:33 It's simpler to filter on the spot than on every write, especially when relevant information 12:43:41 might depend on the context. 12:44:53 phearle [n=phearle@24.63.120.211] has joined #lisp 12:46:29 -!- Ephifone2 is now known as JimmySkizo 12:46:42 i'm writing a code walker for CL, where i do some special kind of expansion. Can i ever run in the situation, where my form is not an atom, but the car is not a symbol? I'm talking about evaluated forms only (not quoted). 12:47:11 what i walk is valid lisp code 12:47:28 -!- dto` [n=user@98.118.1.212] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:48:20 You can have lambdas in operator position. Implementations are free to support other things as extensions. 12:49:29 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:30 -!- Guest61913 is now known as lexa_ 12:50:00 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest19144 12:52:07 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 12:53:00 lucydogen [n=Y@83.240.197.202] has joined #lisp 12:55:07 ah lambdas.... support other things with any semantics, or support other things with the semantics of the car evaluating to a funciton (like with lambda)? 12:55:13 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:55:41 pretty much anything. 12:55:43 interesting. you shouldn't (trace identity) 12:56:19 serichsen: tracing anything in the CL package is undefined behaviour. 12:56:29 -!- JimmySkizo is now known as dalton 12:57:04 damn emacs, doesn't use || for escaping 12:57:18 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:58:17 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 12:58:41 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 12:58:54 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:59:40 pkhoung: which means there is no way to support it in a code walker? 12:59:57 not generically. 13:00:45 -!- JosefAss1d [n=josef@1385158256.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:00:56 JosefAssad [n=josef@1385158256.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 13:03:02 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 13:03:22 jmbr [n=jmbr@guest245.gti.ssr.upm.es] has joined #lisp 13:05:53 LiamH [n=none@208.72.159.207] has joined #lisp 13:06:04 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 13:06:19 -!- rudi [n=rudi@mail.ist.tu-graz.ac.at] has quit ["Client exciting"] 13:07:07 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:07:35 alexbobp_ [n=alex@ppp-70-253-66-27.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:52 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 13:07:55 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:08:06 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:08:41 Adamant [n=Adamant@76.29.188.60] has joined #lisp 13:09:09 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:09:36 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@192.51.54.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:09:56 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 13:10:07 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:22 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:35 -!- lucydogen [n=Y@83.240.197.202] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:11:40 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 13:12:34 Adamant [n=Adamant@76.29.188.60] has joined #lisp 13:13:06 looking at http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/project/ai-repository/ai/html/cltl/clm/node59.html 13:13:06 I'm a bit confused. What do the "X3J13 voted in...." mean? Has compiler-let been removed from the language, and the others been added or not? 13:13:36 demmel: that document is from when the standardization process was in progress 13:13:49 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 13:13:55 demmel: the final standard is pretty accurately expressed in the clhs 13:14:01 demmel: if it's not in the clhs, it's not in the standard 13:14:17 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-142-208.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:14:26 Speaking of standards, how is Cltl3 going? 13:14:37 There hasn't been any talk on the cltl3-devel list for a month now. 13:14:37 http://l1sp.org/cl/compiler-let for example 13:14:51 Adamant [n=Adamant@76.29.188.60] has joined #lisp 13:15:33 <_8david> Xach: you mentioned looking for a flight to Amsterdam recently, yet ECLM is in Hamburg. Are you planning a great tour through Europe? 13:16:16 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 13:16:19 _8david: hmm, ok. i wonder where i got the impression it is in amsterdam. the intent was to go to eclm. 13:16:27 *guaqua* recommends http://www.billigflieger.de/ for flights in europe 13:16:36 amsterdam has to be at least 50km from hamburg 13:16:56 dunno about transatlantic flights, though 13:16:57 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:02 -!- younder [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 13:18:16 Xach: ~450Km 13:18:54 so do implementations generally follow http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/sec_3-1-2-1-2-1.html ? 13:18:54 as in not supporting compiler-let, generic-flet etc... 13:19:23 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:19:23 demmel: yes 13:19:34 compiler-let is sometimes offered as an extension. 13:19:53 sb-cltl2:compiler-let for example 13:20:09 ok I see. Thanks guys. 13:20:10 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@ppp-70-253-66-27.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:20:28 _8david: unfortunately, the cost and logistics make the trip extremely unlikely 13:20:52 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:22:03 mikezor [n=mikael@c-4fe070d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:23:21 demmel: most implementations have compiler-let 13:23:36 rtoym: ping 13:24:47 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 13:26:00 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:17 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:47 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:59 -!- abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:29:48 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-156-195.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:30:15 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 13:32:57 stuart71 [n=user@75.145.221.229] has joined #lisp 13:33:41 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@89-138-171-11.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:33:55 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 13:34:38 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Operation timed out] 13:34:47 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:37:02 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:37:25 serichsen pasted "the return of the shaved yak" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82900 13:38:21 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.190.87] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:38:32 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-53-236.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:57 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.190.87] has joined #lisp 13:39:00 lucydogen [n=Y@83.240.197.202] has joined #lisp 13:39:29 serichsen: 1. position if you're afraid of leaks, 2. multiple-value-call 13:39:53 younder [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 13:40:04 hi all 13:40:44 Well, had that Erik naggum wake on friday. 13:41:14 lots of people showed up? 13:41:17 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-138-195.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:41:33 no, it beeing summer and all 13:41:44 what did he die from? 13:41:54 -!- stuart71 [n=user@75.145.221.229] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:42:09 intestinal colitis 13:42:26 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:42:31 tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p923e6b.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:42:39 a form of ulcer on the large colon 13:42:48 -!- _8david [n=user@77-22-106-191-dynip.superkabel.de] has left #lisp 13:43:17 pkhuong: I don't see the m-v-c relevance? 13:43:52 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 13:44:01 instead of apply and list. 13:44:13 -!- lucydogen [n=Y@83.240.197.202] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:44:16 m-v-c and values 13:44:35 A condition he had suffered from for 15 years, but had lately become much worse. 13:46:10 pkhuong: what is the difference? 13:46:15 well, I'll put the matter to rest now. May he rest in peace. 13:46:30 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 13:46:31 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:46:36 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 13:47:15 you don't cons a list up needlessly, and it's probably at least as transparent to the compiler as apply/list, which is hard to beat in opacity. 13:47:39 -!- Guest19144 is now known as lexa_ 13:48:08 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest68348 13:51:23 functional programming in lisp invariately conses up a list needlessly 13:51:38 hence the two sets of commands 13:51:54 a functional one, and a destructive one 13:52:38 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:40 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-168-179.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:52:54 ok 13:54:44 -!- JosefAssad [n=josef@1385158256.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:54:53 Jabberwockey [n=jens@193.174.12.194] has joined #lisp 13:54:55 JosefAssad [n=josef@1385158256.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 13:56:39 Notice that the destructive one is allowed to be implemented exactly as the non destructive one. 13:56:57 -!- Guest68348 is now known as lexa_ 13:56:58 A small foot-print implementation could (defun delete (&rest args) (apply (function remove) args)). 13:57:27 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest78403 13:58:37 but since no such implementation actually exists.. 13:58:54 it is probably a mute point 13:59:30 serichsen annotated #82900 "the revenge of the shaved yak" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82900#1 13:59:57 *lol* "mute point" 14:00:26 if only it could be 14:00:51 -!- sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:00:56 sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 14:01:38 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:03:34 danlei [n=user@pD9E2EBC1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:19 -!- Phoodus 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[n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:43 younder: you got any more lisp-mode highlights with font-lock? 14:40:28 -!- demmel [n=demmel@91.12.48.113] has quit [] 14:40:56 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:41:05 tcr: hi 14:42:26 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 14:42:32 hmpf .. parse-number just throws random, implementation defined even - conditions around 14:43:55 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@88-149-232-13.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 14:43:59 nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:52 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:27 G'morning all. 14:49:45 hey 14:49:47 manic12_ [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has joined #lisp 14:50:03 hi nyef 14:50:11 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:50:35 -!- manic12_ [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:50:45 manic12_ [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has joined #lisp 14:50:58 lnostdal: It uses parse-integer internally 14:51:31 And it's not totally complete, or bug-free. I took a look at it last week 14:51:36 -!- manic12_ [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:51:42 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:47 manic12_ [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:08 yeah, it would perhaps make sense for parse-integer to be wrapped in a handler that casts the implementation specific condition to an invalid-number condition 14:54:06 Probably 14:54:07 blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 14:54:08 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:54:41 uh, orwell .. not wrap each parse-integer directly of course .. but higher in the call stack (in parse-number, or so ....) 14:54:43 nyef: I've got a working C parser - courtesy of klapaucjusz. now I only need to translate the parser's output back into CL+CFFI :) 14:56:25 fe[nl]ix: Oh, cool. 14:56:38 Blkt [n=Blkt@dynamic-adsl-94-37-236-153.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 14:57:13 clop [n=jared@99.23.192.153] has joined #lisp 14:57:38 hi, anyone know how to get a really big stack for allegro? i'm getting stack overflows (and for various reasons can't just switch to tail recursion, etc.) 14:57:42 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 14:58:07 clop: i don't know, sorry. i don't think there are a lot of allegro cl users here, usually. i've heard their support is really good, though. 14:58:15 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:58:25 the manual also seems to be pretty good 14:58:35 -!- demanotto [n=demanott@KD210230163150.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 14:58:50 xach, ok thanks, i'll try them 14:58:51 HET2 [i=diman@128.131.95.22] has joined #lisp 14:58:54 Muld [i=wr23@88.196.43.189] has joined #lisp 14:59:04 xach, i'm at a university so i'm not sure like if i can bother them, etc. :) 14:59:10 clop: are you ont he free version? last I checked, it had a 25MB memory limitation 14:59:15 clop: if you're using the gratuitous version of Allegro, there's no way to do it 14:59:42 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 14:59:54 oh, no, the CS dept. has a copy of the paid version 14:59:56 clop: if your university has a license, i'd guess they'd be happy to help. and even if they don't... 15:00:18 sorry, franz would be happy to help even if the university doesn't have a license. 15:00:22 is my guess. 15:00:32 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-46-125.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 15:00:35 indeed. the franz folks are very rapid to response and i would be very suprised if they was to decline help. 15:00:41 hello. i do run into a problem with key-words: an algorithm splits into several sub-functions. each of the sub-funcs does have some key-word-parameters. now the parameter list of the main-func is growing and growing. can i pass through paramters as a list (so that the main-func does not need to know about them) like a &rest? 15:01:08 tcr: I got a suggestion for slime. Is it possible to have a Makefile so that all the .el files can be easily compiled? 15:01:38 trebor_dki: &rest list &key &allow-other-keys 15:02:11 pkhuong: thanks, reading the spec for that. 15:02:12 it's interesting tho that there are few commercial lisp folks here: is there a connection between the free lisps and irc-procastination? ;) 15:02:30 -!- Guest78403 is now known as lexa_ 15:02:31 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 15:03:00 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest4077 15:03:11 hypno: it's _free_node 15:03:14 hypno: freenode is a free software network. 15:03:43 hypno: Actually, it's more directed than that. This channel is actually #sbcl in disguise. There used to be more sbcl maintainers here than other users. 15:03:51 hahaha 15:04:10 oh, i thought people was mainly here because undernet suck, not on political grounds. 15:05:16 nyef: heh, yeah. 15:05:30 leo2007: What for? 15:05:37 hypno: you can do free software on top of allegro or lispworks or any other commercial lisp 15:05:40 -!- alexbobp_ is now known as alexbobp 15:05:46 fe[nl]ix: Did you talk to walter? 15:06:23 tcr: no, I first wanted to try all the parsers I found to see their real capabilities 15:06:43 How's the one you got implemented? On top of cl-yacc? 15:06:45 and klapaucjusz's was actually better, so I asked him first 15:06:47 tcr: yes 15:07:03 Fair enough. How complete is it? 15:07:21 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:08:09 -!- blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:08:11 he uses it to parse his own dialect of C+CPS then translate back into C 15:08:13 pretty good 15:08:16 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@guest245.gti.ssr.upm.es] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:08:23 -!- JosefAssad [n=josef@1385158256.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has left #lisp 15:08:41 clop: Franz has, or at least used to have, serious academic discounts. it may be a good idea to ask them 15:08:59 tcr: should the .el files not be compiled 15:09:21 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-53-236.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:09:29 leo2007: No, look at the end of slime.el; it byte-compiles selected speed-critical functions 15:10:03 pjb: i don't know if you care about the context, but "cartercc" has been active in comp.lang.lisp in the past with some threads not unlike the current one. 15:10:28 pjb: i.e. "this is so weird, i don't have time to adapt, lisp has problems", etc 15:10:40 tcr: you mean when it is loaded it compiles those functions on the fly? 15:10:52 leo2007: Yes 15:11:35 emacs has different compile/load semantics too? 15:12:17 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:12:31 -!- ZabaQ [n=johnc@playboxgames.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:13:18 -!- Guest4077 is now known as lexa_ 15:13:22 sure 15:13:48 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest26839 15:13:48 pkhuong: ((lambda (&rest par-list &key x &allow-other-keys) (print par-list)) :x 1 :y 2), right? 15:13:49 is there a generally good way to launch sbcl and restart it if it crashes? i.e. sort of like checking if the app.pid -file is there and if not, then launch again? 15:14:04 some already thought-of library or system-call? 15:14:07 trebor_dki: sure. 15:14:33 guaqua: build without ldb, --disable-debugger, and a bash script. 15:14:34 guaqua: There are shellscripts that monitor a process, and if it dies start it again 15:15:56 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:17:47 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 15:18:04 while true; do sbcl; done 15:19:07 heh true 15:19:50 i was originally thinking more in the lines of a heartbeat process like erlang does it 15:19:57 tcr: what about the files in contrib? 15:19:58 s/sbcl/sbcl --disable-ldb --disable-debugger/ 15:20:05 some of them are large too 15:20:07 is there a --disable-ldb? 15:20:12 yep 15:20:14 cool 15:20:16 now 15:20:21 *Xach* missed that 15:20:24 but i guess i'd need to to a more high-level checking of the system to know any better 15:21:05 oudeis [n=oudeis@93-172-197-237.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 15:21:12 --disable-debugger achieves this goal, i guess 15:22:37 leo2007: the list in slime.el also contains functions from contribs. That's not clean, but it's how it is. What actual slowness do you experience? 15:23:05 tcr: not sure, but usally I compile .el files 15:23:37 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0B36.versanet.de] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.94.1"] 15:23:40 You shouldn't, it's an annoyance 15:24:00 well, why not 15:24:23 you mean for slime or general 15:24:26 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-34-164.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:24:34 in general 15:24:45 any reason? 15:25:04 emacs favors .elc files over .el files even though the .el file was modified after its last compilation 15:25:09 backtraces are not so nice 15:25:22 re-evaluating stuff is sometimes not taken up 15:25:40 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-41-17.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:55 tcr: that is manageable, actually emacs does give warnings although not very easy to find 15:26:09 Do you happen to use Gentoo? 15:26:09 in the *Message* buffer 15:26:28 -!- manic12_ [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:26:28 me? no, i use os x for the past two months 15:26:42 was using fedora before 15:27:28 -!- Guest26839 is now known as lexa_ 15:27:34 Just reminds of the pathological desire of gentoo users to squelch out a few nanoseconds in ls and co 15:27:50 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 15:27:58 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest11977 15:28:11 ;) 15:28:45 *stassats* wants a computer where all operations take no more than 100 ms 15:28:49 tcr: where there are lots of macro, compilation will speed things up noticeably 15:30:21 sorry i always forget it: which of the following is limited by the maximum of parameters calling a function: eval, apply or funcall? 15:30:22 dto [n=user@98.118.1.212] has joined #lisp 15:30:37 all 15:31:01 stassats: Well, you could audit your system and remove all operations that take more than 100ms. That would meet the criteria. 15:31:02 funcall has the lower limit, of course. 15:31:39 so in (apply #'myfunc parameter-list) length of parameter-list has an upper limit? 15:31:46 sure 15:32:00 as little as 50 15:32:11 as much as 512M 15:32:12 clhs call-arguments-limit 15:32:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_call_a.htm 15:32:34 tcr: thanks, reading 15:32:45 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Success] 15:33:13 the usual solution is REDUCE 15:33:38 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-46-125.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:33:51 trebor_dki: on ccl/linux/x86 it's only 8192 15:34:07 you could use REDUCE inside EVAL, this way EVAL wins over FUNCALL and APPLY 15:34:20 4096 on clisp 15:34:28 cmm: (funcall #'reduce ... 15:34:38 tcr: lambda-parameters-limit -> 536870911, really? 15:34:48 bah 15:34:53 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:35:13 *trebor_dki* reading about reduce 15:35:24 -!- jlf` [n=user@adsl-76-200-141-88.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:35:39 and 2047 on LW 15:35:58 (free version, at least) 15:36:33 *Xach* wonders how many programs would break on a lisp that supported only the minimum requirements of the spec 15:37:22 i think, i do not need reduce now ;) 50 is really low, but i think i will stay under 1000 for sure ... 15:37:35 probably not many, but the only way to know is to actually try, and noone is going to try something so useless, so we'll just never know 15:37:36 especially array limits 15:37:55 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 15:38:23 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:38:43 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:41:27 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 15:41:47 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:44:06 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:47:36 -!- LiamH [n=none@208.72.159.207] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:49:20 -!- frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@wafer.futurs.inria.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:49:35 cmm: it wouldn't be hard to modify SBCL with a dumb-compliance mode. 15:49:44 fe[nl]ix: my series/ directory does not contain a file s-code? 15:50:46 tcr: http://series.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/series/series/ 15:51:58 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:53:07 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:54:26 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:56:23 jlf` [n=user@209.204.171.101] has joined #lisp 15:58:34 tcr: the live ebuild now doesn't compile .el files any more 15:58:44 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:36 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@88-149-232-13.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [] 15:59:51 fe[nl]ix: I think that was only a reference to the general impression of "I compile everything with -funroll-all-loops -O6 -pipe -mtune=..." ;) 16:01:18 pkhuong: he's right anyway. emacs backtraces from compiled functions are almost unusable 16:02:07 pkhuong: I've just seen that with my own eyes :D 16:02:15 jmbr [n=jmbr@155.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:02:20 -!- prip_ [n=_prip@host45-129-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:02:39 prip_ [n=_prip@host27-197-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:03:19 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 16:03:48 prxq [n=mommer@pD9548F4C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:03:52 tcr: can you reproduce that error ? 16:04:02 howdi 16:05:11 hello prxq 16:05:25 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:06:36 bzoto [n=pradella@131.175.135.9] has joined #lisp 16:08:14 -!- enn is now known as eli_away 16:08:27 -!- eli_away is now known as enn 16:09:17 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 16:10:07 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-40-3.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["leaving"] 16:10:25 a-s [n=user@92.81.146.45] has joined #lisp 16:10:57 -!- bzoto [n=pradella@131.175.135.9] has left #lisp 16:11:28 Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 16:12:22 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-189-167.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:30 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229080101.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:13:46 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.245.241] has joined #lisp 16:17:02 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp154.studby.uio.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:17:54 fe[nl]ix: I'll try later, thanks for the report 16:18:02 -!- HET2 [i=diman@128.131.95.22] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:18:10 -!- Guest11977 is now known as lexa_ 16:18:34 slime seems to become ever more sluggish as the size of the interaction buffer grows. 16:18:35 tcr: I get it scrolling about 11% into that file, anyway 16:18:40 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest15291 16:20:09 prxq: What's interaction buffer? 16:20:41 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:21:03 tcr: the repl buffer. *slime-repl sbcl* :-) 16:21:25 prxq: If you mean the REPL, yes output buffering results in dismal effects. You can place (setf swank:*use-dedicated-output-stream* t swank::*dedicated-output-stream-buffering* :line) into your ~/.swank.lisp to make it create an extra socket for user-output, and control its buffering 16:21:49 prxq: But I think you should report the dismal performance of the default setting to the mailing list. 16:22:18 other valid values are :FULL, and :NONE 16:22:30 I am not sure if I have the default setting. will look. 16:23:22 -!- Guest15291 is now known as lexa_ 16:23:48 Hmm, cl-darcs is showing a little bit rot and Magnus Henoch appears to be working for Erlang Training and Consulting Ltd. Anyone use/play with CL-DARCS? 16:23:51 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:23:52 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest2597 16:23:53 output works nicely, but moving the cursor around to edit a line becomes very very slow. 16:24:03 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 16:24:06 yeah, i noticed that too 16:24:24 I haven't 16:24:32 i'll look into it 16:24:49 prxq: you can clear buffer with C-c M-o 16:24:50 I wouldn't expect that in the repl buffer. In a .lisp buffer it could be the reader-conditional fontification 16:25:22 tmh: what are you using cl-darcs for? 16:25:27 which results in very slow performance on sbcl's package-data.lisp-expr 16:25:28 It looks slightly pointless... 16:25:53 tcr: it doesn't highlight on demnad? 16:25:57 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-198.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 16:26:13 stassats: pardon? 16:26:38 stassats: M-x find-library elp -- that's what I use as profiling tool 16:26:39 rsynnott: Nothing, but I'd like to use it. 16:26:47 right; clearing the buffer makes it behave normally again. 16:26:53 i mean does it fontify everything at once? 16:27:31 rsynnott: I think it would be useful if darcs repositories were separate from the tools used to interact with them. I know the darcs people have that as a goal. 16:27:34 stassats: Lazily, but it has to refontify on redisplay 16:27:53 (I do not know why) 16:28:30 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@193.174.12.194] has quit ["Verlassend"] 16:28:31 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-198.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 16:29:19 I just know it's very sluggish because of how that fontification code is implemented. The implementation does a lot of unnecessary work, but it's hard to make it smarter, and still reliable 16:29:35 "it" being sbcl's package-data.lisp-expr 16:29:42 seems that the reason of sluggish repl is the arglist display 16:29:47 which hardly represent usual lisp code 16:29:53 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-131-93.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 16:31:50 ejs0 [n=eugen@69-51-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:29 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:32:50 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:13 namely, slime-symbol-at-point 16:36:41 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 16:37:22 That may explain it. I haven't updated since some time, and I'm still using my implementation of slime-symbol-at-point 16:39:05 elp is really helpful for such things 16:40:09 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@imaxeson.net] has quit [] 16:40:18 yeah it's nice due to elp-instrument-package 16:41:41 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 16:42:25 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-208-96.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 16:42:33 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-198.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:42:47 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 16:42:58 -!- xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has quit ["Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.2.0"] 16:44:20 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 16:44:22 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.217.111] has joined #lisp 16:45:57 dysinger_ [n=tim@71-20-231-3.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:51 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.245.241] has quit [] 16:48:14 cl-newb [n=john@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:15 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:49:49 Is there a usable open source alternative to allegrocache? 16:50:10 lukego [n=lukegorr@84-75-21-37.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:50:52 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 16:51:01 cl-newb: perhaps elephant would do? 16:51:13 cl-newb: how much reduced functionality can you accept in exchange for reduced cost? 16:51:18 Rucksack, elephant, CL interface to Berkeley DB, memcached interface, ... 16:51:34 -!- Guest2597 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 16:51:41 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:00 thx, i will look into them 16:53:15 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 16:53:43 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest25330 16:53:44 Xach: TBD 16:54:15 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-29-6.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:55:30 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-189-167.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:55:43 What is an alternative to REGEX for parsing text? 16:55:53 tmh: recursive descent 16:56:04 how to list all the read macros? 16:56:06 DFA? 16:56:15 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-96.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 16:56:39 istr pjb had something for listing reader macros 16:56:52 stassats: If DFA was for me, what does it stand for? 16:57:32 deterministic finite automaton 16:57:33 tmh: Deterministic Finite-state Automaton 16:58:42 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@93-172-197-237.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:59:07 Hmm, I seem to have unwittingly implemented a recursive decent parser on one of my projects, or at least a facsimile of one. 16:59:21 Lisp made it very easy. 16:59:39 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 17:00:02 There's list-all-macro-characters in http://darcs.informatimago.com/public/lisp/common-lisp/reader.lisp 17:00:15 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 17:00:43 tmh: indeed. Depending on what you are parsing, i usually find recursive descent to be a lot easier to understand than some abstract grammar or regexp monstrosity 17:00:47 prxq: should be fixed in the HEAD 17:01:00 (after 15 minutes) 17:01:39 tmh: i've also used a simple state machine in TAGBODY to some success 17:02:11 drewc: I was just editing some files in emacs using REGEX, saving 4 parts and assembling in a different order. It made me think there had to be a better way, even a better interactive way. 17:02:16 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 17:02:22 REGEX query-replace 17:02:58 pjb: I am thinking of using #m as a read macro for creating mxn matrix 17:03:05 do you know if that has been used? 17:03:21 stassats: great! 17:03:24 leo2007: Yes, it has already been used. There's only 26 letters. 17:03:24 and thanks 17:03:24 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-96.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 17:03:43 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-29-6.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:03:53 leo2007: if you want to select reader macro character that is not used, choose one from te unicode character set. 17:03:53 tmh: 'Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use regular expressions." Now they have two problems.' :) 17:04:01 what about #M[] 17:04:04 leo2007: you may get inspiration from APL too. 17:04:06 clhs #a 17:04:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhl.htm 17:04:33 stassats: i know about that ;) 17:04:34 drewc: Yes, definitely. 17:04:48 leo2007: so what do you want? 17:04:57 leo2007: there's no difference in reader macros between uppercase and lowercase. And It's nicer to keep using normal parentheses. You could however use directly [] to read and write your matrices. 17:05:11 drewc: I add to that: "then, they decide to use a RDBMS. Now they have three problems, and problems multiply themselves, not add" 17:05:22 I am thinking a read macro that allows #M[1 2 3; 3 4 5;] to create a 2 x 3 array 17:05:44 leo2007: just: [1 2 3; 3 4 5] 17:06:07 that's even better 17:06:13 p_l: have to disagree... i like a well written RDBMS, and greenspunning one up because you are afraid of databases is a recipe for FAIL. 17:06:16 zougg [n=zoug@117.198.163.51] has joined #lisp 17:06:18 #2a((1 2 3) (3 4 5)) isn't much different 17:06:22 leo2007: What I do is to export the reader macro function, and let the user choose on what character he hooks it. 17:06:30 Conversely, for interactive specification of search and replace, if there was something better than REGEX, wouldn't it have been used by now? 17:06:34 stassats: more difficult to type 17:06:59 how to get [ ] recognised? 17:07:17 leo2007: remap your keys so it is easier to type ;) 17:07:38 leo2007: please, don't write code like you are suggesting if you plan on distributing it or being a part of the lisp community ;) 17:07:51 leo2007: I think you should just stick with something like (make-matrix ...). I don't see a lot of benefit to implementing a reader macro for that. 17:07:52 schme: if you have paredit enabled it will place a space between #2a and () 17:08:17 leo2007: IIRC reading [] is an example of set-reader-macro-character... 17:08:21 leo2007: I see. I think it is better to fix paredit then :) 17:08:23 clhs set-reader-macro-character 17:08:23 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for set-reader-macro-character. 17:08:43 clhs set-macro-character 17:08:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set_ma.htm 17:09:19 clhs read-delimited-list 17:09:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_del.htm 17:09:29 drewc: I meant the way how some people use RDBMS. When another, simpler database might suffice. Or not using a database at all 17:09:29 No it's an example of read-delimited-list. 17:09:57 pjb: very interesting. I think the new language 'fortress' by Guy Steele' is designed for mathematics, I want to adopt some of it for a scientific library I am building 17:10:32 leo2007: 'Fortress' is kind of a new/old language. 17:10:47 leo2007: Is there any recent activity on it? 17:10:52 p_l: I wouldn't know much about that. All of the RDBMS using teams i have been on were doing data-driven applications, and thus chose a mature RDBMS to back it. 17:11:13 leo2007: adopt the ideas, not the syntax! 17:11:24 leo2007: Don't misunderstand me, though. I think that is a great idea to borrow concepts from it and implement them in CL. 17:11:24 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71-20-231-3.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:11:32 tmh: not sure, but I remember I read one of his presentations, and the syntax is really easy to understand for mathematical expressions 17:11:43 on the other hand, lisp is not 17:12:12 leo2007: that's entirely subjective. 17:12:15 drewc: that too 17:12:44 drewc: not entirely 17:12:45 drewc: I'd give a lot to have a good RDBMS designer now ;D 17:12:46 leo2007: If the problem you're trying to solve is reading mathematical expressions in lisp, I think you'd be better teaching yourself to read lisp instead of teaching lisp to read math. That's what I did. 17:12:50 for example 17:13:07 leo2007: having never had a formal math education, i find lisp code a lot easier to understand than, say, infix algebra. How is that not subjective? 17:13:07 drewc: one of the major goals that GLS has is to come up with a good syntax 17:13:08 leo2007 pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82909 17:13:20 drewc: which means using unicode and perhaps 2d syntax 17:13:32 fe[nl]ix: i know, i still don't like it :) 17:13:41 leo2007: Standby, I'll revise that. 17:14:19 leo2007: looks great to me, what's the problem? 17:14:47 the problem is there may be a better way to represent mathematical expressions 17:15:28 -!- dalton is now known as Otaucon_xHaT 17:15:30 leo2007: i'm sure there is. How many of them are easily readable by any experienced lisp programmer? 17:15:36 (/ x) instead of (/ 1 x) 17:16:06 stassats: that's excellent, I was always wondering that 17:16:25 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/66227/what-is-the-best-multi-platform-rad-language 17:16:29 tmh annotated #82909 "Revised Math" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82909#1 17:16:34 -!- zougg [n=zoug@117.198.163.51] has left #lisp 17:16:36 does someone have some good graphics libraries to recommend for that? 17:17:02 leo2007: I didn't test that, but there were quite a few places where you could simplify. 17:17:39 leo2007: No need for multiplication in the denominator, this is lisp, everything after the first argument to / is in the denominator 17:17:47 fe[nl]ix: GLS, IIRC, was designing a replacement for FORTRAN for use by math and science types ... i am not either. 17:18:02 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-f3e1fa3cafd932dd] has joined #lisp 17:18:07 he also designed java for 'average' programmers .... i don't consider myself part of that group either :) 17:18:18 serichsen: RAD? Oh boy. Traditionally, it would be something like Java+Swing, but if you don't need to keep an IDE with GUI designer , PyQT4 works quite nice 17:18:21 so, you are a sailor then? 17:18:32 drewc: right. he also mentioned that he's still very fond of APL :) 17:18:42 fe[nl]ix: he has a lot of flaws :) 17:18:59 leo2007: An exponent to a negative power is in the denominator, so basically, you have an expression in the denominator, with 1 in the numerator. That makes me think of another simplification. 17:19:00 stassats: offshore outsourcing ;) 17:19:05 tmh: thanks, that would simplify the syntax a bit 17:19:08 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 17:19:26 tmh: please make annotations 17:19:28 thanks 17:19:37 forget your CASes, get pencil and paper 17:19:37 fe[nl]ix: "fond of" doesn't mean that he considers it very good, elegant etc. :-) 17:19:44 tmh annotated #82909 "Another simplification" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82909#2 17:20:07 p_l: I thought about recommending Common Lisp + some qt libraries/bindings or similar 17:20:13 p_l: considering the direction of Fortress design, I think he does 17:20:22 leo2007: Again, untested, but you get the idea. Part of expressing math in lisp is learning lisp and expecting anyone reading it to know lisp as well. 17:20:25 p_l: at least partially 17:20:43 serichsen: you have experience with doing RAD using QT and CL? 17:20:50 leo2007: I think that expression is fairly clear, if you understand the division operator. 17:20:53 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:21:00 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:21:06 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:21:25 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 17:21:35 fe[nl]ix: iirc, it's targeted at people who swear by Fortran... 17:21:59 leo2007: And now all of the terms in the denominator are separate, for the most part. You could add semi-colon comments after each documenting what they represent. 17:22:19 -!- cl-newb [n=john@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:22:48 tmh: bugger comments ... FLET is like comments only better! 17:22:58 drewc: Good point. 17:24:02 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:24:12 serichsen: I wouldn't use CL+QT for "RAD", not now. CLIM (especially if you have one of commercial implementations), yes, but CommonQT and cl-smoke require work 17:24:12 thanks for the tips 17:24:38 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Success] 17:24:51 p_l: GTK, otoh, seems quite nice to use from CL. 17:25:20 drewc: what do you need gtk for ? 17:25:44 fe[nl]ix: webkit-gtk! 17:25:51 drewc: Only not so long ago I managed to get two GTK bindings to compile, so... 17:26:00 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has joined #lisp 17:26:03 p_l: bindings? who needs em? 17:26:08 why not qt-webkit? 17:27:05 stassats: because i think Smoke is a hack, i prefer working as close to C as i can when FFI'ing 17:27:40 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-46-125.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 17:28:46 p_l: i just used what's available in clim-gtkairo and defcfun'ed up the rest .. took all of 45 minutes from knowing nothing about gtk abd webkit to a running browser window. 17:29:11 I think better solution than Smoke would be to hijack Kalyptus and write FFI with it 17:29:18 -!- Otaucon_xHaT is now known as ausente 17:29:22 -!- ausente [n=user7994@189-19-112-49.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit ["eject"] 17:29:45 I got a file, that produces 301 compiler notes and the file is just over 300 lines 17:30:28 cl-newb [n=john@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:11 what is the recommended package for unit testing? 17:31:38 leo2007: rt, stefil, fiveam, etc... 17:32:07 like web-frameworks, everyone is writing their own 17:32:18 leo2007: i like stefil, but i don't like the source code. fiveam is my second favorite... well written, but not as dynamic is stefil. rt is a test framework that has been known to work. 17:32:24 leo2007: I have to plug LISP-UNIT at this point. I maintain some numerical related extensions to it and it is used for GSLL. http://repo.or.cz/w/lisp-unit.git 17:32:48 -!- cl-newb [n=john@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:33:06 tmh: can you run individual tests and assertions at the repl? 17:33:14 excellent 17:33:28 assertions specifically ... that's what i like about stefil. 17:33:37 minion: stefil? 17:33:38 stefil: Stefil is a young test framework that drops the common idea of *Unit testing and is based on instrumented defun's callable from the repl. http://www.cliki.net/stefil 17:34:12 drewc: like (assert-float-equal ...)? If that is what you mean, yes. Although, lisp-unit is very unsophisticated compared to stefil. 17:34:16 minion: fiveam? 17:34:18 fiveam: FiveAM is a Test Framework whose goal is to be as simple as possible. http://www.cliki.net/fiveam 17:34:52 tmh: oh .. it has things like ASSERT-FLOAT-EQUAL? not interested :) 17:35:24 drewc: I need to spend some time on lisp-unit. Firm up the interface and generate a tutorial. 17:35:36 tmh: fiveam and stefil are both based around the idea that we only nee one assertion in lisp ... 'IS' :) 17:35:41 drewc: Hah, yeah. Floating point stuff can be painful. 17:35:57 how does that work? it approximates equality? 17:35:59 tmh: for numerical unit testing, would lisp-unit be a good choice? 17:36:28 Adlai: You define an epsilon, or rely on the default value, that suffices for equality. 17:36:34 (is (foo x y)) vs (assert-foo x y) etc ... much prefer that. 17:36:42 drewc: btw, have you seen Shoes? (the gui library) 17:36:45 Adlai: Relative error or significant figures. 17:37:01 p_l: that's that ruby thing? 17:37:07 leo2007: I think so, but I'm a little biased. :-) 17:37:18 drewc: yeah 17:37:53 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:38:11 p_l: i peeked at it. I can't stand ruby, so never looked further. Something like that in CL would be both easy and fun :) 17:38:20 leo2007: Also, be warned, the interface is in a little bit of flux at the moment. Need to get that nailed down. 17:39:12 drewc: I actually quite like ruby, though I started to disagree (and apparently more people agree) with the notion that "Pickaxe" is a good book to learn it from 17:39:45 milanj- [n=milan@79.101.251.181] has joined #lisp 17:41:08 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.170.123] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:41:10 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-2734.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 17:41:14 -!- milanj- is now known as milanj 17:42:45 deafmacro [n=user@59.92.190.182] has joined #lisp 17:42:46 tmh: no worries, is it good practice to put tests in the same package as the target package 17:43:21 -!- hypno [n=hypno@195.43.248.100] has quit ["leaving"] 17:43:24 blazeski [n=slobodan@79.125.247.58] has joined #lisp 17:43:40 leo2007: I don't. I put the tests in a test package. Something as simple as target-package-test. Use whatever convention makes sense. 17:44:12 what's the downside of putting them inside the same package? 17:45:14 *stassats* found that way unexported symbols which should be exported 17:45:17 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4c2a.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:45:44 leo2007: Mainly bookkeeping. You can't (delete-package ...) if you want to nuke either the test package or the package being tested. Also, I like having a test package because it helps me catch problems in the exported interface. (what stassats said). 17:45:53 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 17:46:11 ok 17:46:40 I got a few packages inside a system, should I create one test for each package? 17:47:16 *leo2007* has no experience build big systems 17:48:17 leo2007: I don't think there is a correct answer. Start with one if that is easy. I use asdf and have a separate asdf definition for the package and the tests. The test asdf definition requires the package. Beyond that, you're the one with the knowledge of how you work and what makes sense to you. 17:49:07 tmh: thanks for the advice 17:49:17 np 17:49:53 -!- blazeski [n=slobodan@79.125.247.58] has left #lisp 17:54:14 tmh: by the way are you one of gsll's developers? 17:55:04 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:25 no, I probably should dig into it. But I have a linear algebra project I'm developing that I spend my time on. The intention is that in the future, it might be a high level interface to things like GSLL. 17:56:22 tmh: really, you mean those things to do with matrix? 17:56:29 rlb3 [n=rlb@166.205.4.154] has joined #lisp 17:56:30 -!- rlb3 [n=rlb@166.205.4.154] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:57:22 rlb3 [n=rlb@166.205.4.154] has joined #lisp 17:57:54 leo2007: Exclusively linear algebra. GSLL is more of a scientific library. I am focusing on just linear algebra. 17:58:27 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:58:36 tmh: have you talked to Tony Rossini? I noticed he has done a lot interfaces to sci/math libraries. 17:59:02 Hello LiamH. I have not, I don't even know who that is. (little embarassed) 17:59:35 He posted to the GSLL mailing list, so I figured that was an opening to ask him. I haven't heard a response yet. 18:00:10 Can you give me link. 18:00:10 ? 18:00:31 To his stuff, not the mailing list, which I still need to subscribe to. 18:00:47 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 18:01:03 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-4-216.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:01:05 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:01:11 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-4-216.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:23 tmh: he is doing lisp-matrix common-lisp-stat etc. 18:01:35 very nice person to talk to 18:01:36 Ah, okay, I have seen that. 18:01:47 unfortunately he seems not visiting this channel 18:01:50 No specific link to his stuff, what I noticed was http://repo.or.cz/?by_tag=lisp 18:02:04 look for "blindglobe" as the owner 18:02:28 CommonLispStat.git, cls.git, rclg.git, etc. 18:02:39 Okay, and I just subscribed. 18:03:12 I've read through the lisp-matrix stuff on google, I have a copy of the repo as well. Browsed it, but haven't looked in detail. 18:03:20 hyperbor1ean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 18:03:21 Here is my message http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/gsll-devel/2009q2/000309.html, look at the end. 18:03:23 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:04:55 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:04:59 I'm interested in his response. 18:05:21 LiamH: Do you have any further thoughts on the expaned interface to lisp-unit. Does it make sense at all? 18:05:44 *expanded* 18:06:05 tmh: I have to admit I haven't looked at any of the lisp stuff in the last few weeks, too busy with other things. 18:06:52 Heh, neither have I. I also haven't touched my linear algebra stuff. I'm thinking I should just release what I have and see what happens. 18:07:53 tmh: I think that's a good idea. As I recall what I saw made sense; it's a good idea to put it out and get people to use/comment on it. 18:08:08 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Success] 18:08:18 oudeis [n=oudeis@85-250-177-65.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:08:48 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:09:51 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:10:09 LiamH: What I want to avoid is releasing vaporware. I've about completed functionality equivalent to the BLAS. That's probably good enough for a release. I have a gauss solver floating around somewhere that I could probably incorporate to have at least an example of an LAPACK level routine. 18:10:50 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:11:24 LiamH: What I haven't done is gone through LAPACK enough to abstract out an interface. That's step 2. 18:11:26 tmh: do you have usable examples? If so, be sure to include those. I find when I'm trying to figure out a new package that examples are an important tool. 18:12:23 LiamH: I could probably adapt something from the unit testing. The other example I want to include is how to extend and specialize the library. 18:12:47 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 18:13:04 LiamH: and I'm the same. An example goes a long way towards explaining a library. lisp-unit is in desperate need of a good tutorial based on examples. 18:13:29 Of course for that, we have GSLL as an example :-) 18:13:37 but not for every feature 18:14:47 LiamH: That's a tough thing, though. Once you figure out the basic translation between the C and CL functions, you should be able to get by pretty well with the GSL examples. Save yourself some work. 18:14:57 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:15:22 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 18:15:23 I meant GSLL as an example of lisp-unit, sorry. 18:16:13 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-4-216.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:16:20 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-4-216.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:49 Oh, yeah. Well, writing examples for lisp-unit is probably only a few hours of work. I'd hate to try to cover GSLL. You have grad students, right? 18:17:02 Ha, no! 18:17:13 All the GSLL work is on my own time. 18:17:40 I do have >1500 tests (examples) for GSLL though. 18:17:54 abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 18:18:07 GSL itself has numerous tests, and I've been (slowly) porting those to GSLL. 18:19:10 Ugh. Unit testing is so tedious. I have a unit test for everything in my linear algebra work. It was a good exercise and exposed a lot of errors. But, the tests in all honesty are cursory. I have aspirations of downloading matrices from the matrix market and improving the test. 18:19:31 Matrix market? 18:19:38 -!- deafmacro [n=user@59.92.190.182] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:19:47 http://math.nist.gov/MatrixMarket/ 18:20:04 I also want to translate some of the matrix generation tools. 18:20:45 Very interesting. I wonder if there are GSL tests for it. 18:20:51 I have big aspirations and so little time. I need to finish the PhD, become a professor, get some grad students and work them like rented mules. :-) 18:21:03 There you go! 18:21:24 which reminds me... I should get back to work ;) 18:21:34 pkhuong: you and me. 18:21:43 .... ah... met too 18:21:45 me 18:22:51 One last note. The TODO section in my linear algebra document is growing faster than the library. :-) (sparse matrices, packed matrices, tensors ...) 18:23:55 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:25:17 tmh: OK. I hope to get back to GSLL and related lisp stuff by the end of the summer. 18:25:21 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B316DED.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:25:59 LiamH: Alright. 18:28:30 willkurt [i=willkurt@134.197.110.158] has joined #lisp 18:28:57 LiamH: Do you every have to work with Labview LVM files? I had to write a parser for them for a project I'm working on. 18:29:30 tmh: No. My most recent file format burden was FITS. 18:30:01 For which I hacked up a special-purpose CL interface using cfitsio. 18:30:10 rpg [n=rpg@c-75-72-22-252.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:19 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-251-238.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 18:30:29 -!- willkurt [i=willkurt@134.197.110.158] has left #lisp 18:30:55 LiamH: Okay. You're the only person I could think of that might use both lisp and labview. It not extensively tested, but I wrote it to the online spec, so I think it wouldn't take much to apply it generally. 18:31:04 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:31:42 tmh: OK. People do use labview here, but I pretty much stay out of the lab. Things seem to go better that way :-) 18:32:47 Hah. Yeah, I've been accused of being destructive in the lab, even though all I do is point out the things that don't look right. Apparently, ignorance is bliss. 18:33:38 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:34:19 -!- Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:34:55 Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:34:59 -!- Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:35:14 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@pool-71-186-179-48.bflony.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:45 Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:35:55 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@85-250-177-65.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:36:00 *Adlai* is having a love/hate relationship with ERC 18:36:49 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 18:38:11 -!- rlb3 [n=rlb@166.205.4.154] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info"] 18:38:48 luis: ping 18:53:22 dysinger [n=tim@71-20-231-3.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:05 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:54:18 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:55:16 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-251-238.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 18:58:20 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [] 18:58:30 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:02:37 mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has joined #lisp 19:03:36 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:25 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@86.50.69.116] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:06:59 leo2007: My named-readtables will give you a readtable-iterator 19:08:40 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:09:17 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-124-208.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:09:21 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:09:25 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:09:40 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:45 -!- Guest25330 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 19:11:46 tcoppi: will to get that function? 19:11:49 where* 19:13:15 leo2007: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/darcs/editor-hints 19:14:16 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["--- You have been invited to #reallife"] 19:15:17 benny` [n=benny@i577A0B36.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:15:58 Taggnostr [n=x@86.50.69.116] has joined #lisp 19:17:02 -!- dysinger_ [n=tim@71-20-231-3.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:18:33 -!- benny` is now known as benny 19:18:37 fe[nl]ix: shpong 19:19:13 luis: how about that cffi release ? 19:21:06 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@155.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:21:11 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-4-216.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:22:23 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-251-238.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 19:22:27 gotta test that patch of hefner's first 19:23:04 ok 19:27:22 -!- ivan-kanis [n=user@if02t2-89-83-137-164.d4.club-internet.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:28:07 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-20-97.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:28:16 i heard yesterday that cffi hasn't been updated in years 19:28:51 Does that mean that it's incredibly stable and, say, finished? 19:29:01 mature, even? 19:29:05 it means you can't believe everything you read 19:29:09 Deadish? 19:29:33 What was I supposed to read? 19:29:47 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-73-96.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:30:41 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:31:31 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:31:48 So, this is probably off-topic, but since I only see it in this channel (of the few others in which I hang out), what's the deal with the primes in the nicknames? 19:31:55 or backticks, rather 19:33:19 that way we can tell true lispers from non-true lispers 19:33:37 they're all using the same emacs irc client, I expect 19:33:59 Sikander: backticks are the default way to uniquify nicks that are already in use by ERC, an emacs irc client, and probably others 19:34:36 and rcirc 19:34:45 (which imho is nicerer than erc) 19:35:06 *Sikander* feels inadequate now with xchat... 19:35:12 -!- mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has quit [] 19:35:53 I thought that the underscore was "the way to go", but apparently the Emacs crowd likes to do stuff differently ;) 19:38:38 Sikander: ai... "The latest version is 0.10.5, released on June 16, 2009" 19:39:18 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:59 luis: erm, what does this refer to? 19:40:01 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 19:40:13 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:42:28 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 19:42:56 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:43:08 Sikander: CFFI's status 19:44:17 luis: oh, ah, right. That's good. So what Xach heard was BS then 19:44:48 asksol [n=ask@127.241.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:45:37 lichtblau [n=david@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:46:12 -!- Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:46:59 Sikander: or maybe he was referring to CFFI's troubled past wrt releases. :-) 19:47:17 aha 19:47:19 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0B36.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:48:57 Sikander: Xach was referring to a comment someone made yesterday (in ignorance) about CFFI and/or iolib. 19:49:28 drewc: oh, ok, so that's what I was supposed to have read... :) 19:50:16 Sikander: if you don't read every word said in #lisp, you're missing out! :P 19:50:37 drewc: Yes, dammit, I should start reading backlogs of when I'm asleep! 19:50:58 Sikander: yeah, i do that :) 19:51:23 benny [n=benny@i577A0B36.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:51:39 Hun: oohh ... rcirc ... shiny new toy! 19:51:47 -!- rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-dd39e1fab7327996] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:52:08 drewc: :) 19:52:20 it's been included since emacs22 or so 19:52:40 Dang, it really does look nice... 19:52:55 I'm seriously considering leaving the almighty Vim camp now... 19:53:12 <_3b> yeah, seems nice so far, just need to figure out how to make it not put \ in the middle when it wraps URLs :/ 19:54:10 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:12 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:54:12 Sikander: there is some sense to using vi.. it's everywhere, light, etc. Vim, OTOH, is trying very hard to match the complexity of emacs while only getting 1/10th of the functionality :) 19:54:18 *Xach* will not relinquish rxirc on his vm/cms system 19:54:45 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-1774dd33aa8ba3cf] has joined #lisp 19:54:53 drewc: That's how I got started with vi; had to do some serious text editing over an ssh connection with a 9600 modem... 19:55:10 JUE! 19:55:26 Xach: vm/cms? I have memories of little green terminals... 19:56:07 Sikander: that's what TRAMP is for ;). I was a serious vimmer until just over 5 years ago. 19:56:16 Sikander: now, i never leave emacs. 19:56:38 the bad thing about tramp is that i always have to lookup the syntax... it just doesn't stick with my brain 19:56:39 drewc: or sshfs 19:56:44 drewc: So I know all the combos. Even so much so, that when I had to write some document for my job in Word (aargh!) I kept using those vi keys and for some reason they didn't work 19:56:57 Go figure... 19:57:04 you have that problem with emacs, too 19:57:07 *drewc* has two windows open for stumpwm to manage. firefox + emacs. that's it. 19:57:13 heheh 19:57:30 what, no terminal? You use emacs also as term emulator? 19:57:30 though org-mode is a pretty amazing tool for document hackery 19:57:33 true 19:57:33 Sikander: i have to admit that i used viper-mode for my first 6 months of emacs use. 19:57:36 M-x ansi-term 19:57:44 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.217.111] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:57:58 Sikander: indeed. M-x shell for most things, and sometimes ansi-term 19:58:12 and yes, i have caught myself using vi from within an emacs terminal. 19:58:18 stassats: thanks 19:58:51 Hun: i just started using org-mode about 2 weeks ago, and it's already changed my entire workflow. 19:59:53 Hun: I use it to track my time and take notes of what i'm doing, then i can simple export the whole thing as a monthly status report for my clients... I end up doing less work and creating better value... can't go wrong really. 19:59:54 i use it for setting documents. my whole thesis notes are in it. i just use the latex-import before handing it in :) (and the tables are nice. calc works in them) 20:00:09 drewc: hey, likewise (two weeks of org-mode, and loving it) 20:00:39 it has replaced writing on my walls as the best way of keeping track of what I'm doing 20:01:32 totally .. my notebook has not been touched since i started. 20:01:42 (paper notebook that is) 20:02:06 does someone know a nice emacsy way of drawing FSMs? artist-mode is too awkward for changes :/ 20:02:21 Hun: graphviz + dotty? 20:02:24 i'm working on syncing with google calendar so my phone sees my schedule. 20:02:52 org-mode... I just use viki from vim. Don't have anything to sync with anyway... :( 20:02:54 pkhuong: i do that now when i'm finished... i'll try to do that in my notes :) 20:03:12 wait, yes, a paper filofax 20:03:23 syncing viki with a filofax is rather difficult though 20:03:32 aha, "The value NIL is not of type SB-KERNEL:CONSTANT" on .54.rc2 20:04:37 lispm [n=joswig@e177123051.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:04:56 deepfire: got code? 20:05:03 Hun: http://doc.norang.ca/org-mode.html mentions ditaa and graphviz as working will with org-mode and emacs 20:05:29 i'll try that 20:07:12 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177123051.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:07:29 _deepfire pasted "strange error on 1.0.29.54.rc2" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82920 20:07:31 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-251-238.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has left #lisp 20:07:32 lispm [n=joswig@e177123051.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:07:55 pkhuong, didn't do the isolation -- just encountered it 20:08:40 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:09:27 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:36 I think I'll go the bisection route, isolation will be a nightmare. 20:13:42 It's involving MOP, and it's got dependencies.. 20:16:01 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:16:25 cl-newb [n=john@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:51 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 20:19:16 cadabra [n=cadabra@17.224.12.65] has joined #lisp 20:19:26 pkhuong, wait, do you mean a testcase -- or -- I can provide you with the whole piece. It's all open source, on git.feelingofgreen.ru. 20:20:21 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-46-125.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:20:49 Sikander: what was the plugin name for vim made by a person from this channel? 20:23:04 limp is one 20:23:16 nah that's just sbcl i want the one with clisp 20:25:29 Bigshot_: nekhtuth perhaps ? 20:25:51 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 20:26:06 nekthuth 20:26:24 what's nekhtuth/nekthuth and where can i get it - google hits 0 20:26:25 it's still horrendous since the last time we discussed it 20:26:31 dysinger_ [n=tim@166.129.57.239] has joined #lisp 20:27:18 oh well any other option then luis? 20:27:37 Bigshot_: I'm referring to the name. I haven't actually tried. 20:27:46 Bigshot_: but since you mention it, yeah... Use SLIME. 20:27:55 Bigshot_: http://nekthuth.com/ 20:30:46 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:31:02 fe[nl]ix: anything related to clisp perhaps? 20:31:05 Bigshot_: Maybe it's possible to configure limp to use clisp? It might just use SBCL out of the box for simplicity. 20:32:12 Bigshot_: You are probably referring to Nekthuth made by herbieB 20:32:29 Bigshot_: but that's also for sbcl 20:32:32 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:33:08 Bigshot_: nekthuth.com 20:35:50 -!- lichtblau [n=david@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #lisp 20:36:06 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:36:21 -!- cl-newb [n=john@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:41:17 *p_l* thinks he messed up a little, having windows server for lisp webapp ^^; 20:42:21 1.0.29.32 is clean 20:43:08 Cynner [n=plinka@87.110.242.35] has joined #lisp 20:43:08 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:10 -!- anfairch` [n=user@nat/microsoft/x-f1558f0c8e5ba4cc] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:43:12 -!- Cynner [n=plinka@87.110.242.35] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:43:22 -!- rpg [n=rpg@c-75-72-22-252.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:43:48 going for .45 20:46:10 cl-newb [n=john@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:06 How can I inject a "M-x slime" key sequence every time I enter xemacs21 (so I don't have to type it every time I want to enter slime)? 20:47:31 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 20:48:23 you have an emacs init file? 20:48:53 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71-20-231-3.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:49:42 emacs commands are really Lisp functions 20:49:44 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:01 just call it from your init-file as a Lisp function would be a start 20:51:41 MWP_ [n=na@dhcp-11-166.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 20:53:34 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-90-202.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 20:53:36 -!- Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:56:31 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-124-208.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:01:15 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-34-164.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:01:46 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:02:17 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:02:53 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-90-202.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:05:57 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229238109.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:08:14 lispm: thx, that worked, was afk 21:09:03 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:10:26 why many put (in-package #:common-lisp-user) before defpackage? 21:12:32 lispm: SLIME thinks I abnormally terminate when I (quit) now from slime. (Now that I have (slime) in my .xemacs/init.el), otherwise it works......guess I can live with that 21:12:43 well, if you don't you know nothing about what package the file will be loaded in 21:12:55 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 21:12:55 JUE! 21:12:56 if you choose cl-user then at least you know the package uses CL 21:13:10 writing (cl:defpackage ...) is also fine 21:13:16 it's still a bit lame, compared with cl:defpackage and cl:in-package 21:13:19 yes 21:13:26 thanks 21:13:29 agreed on lamenes 21:13:30 antifuchs, memo from tcr: What about ECL boinkmarks? :) 21:13:31 s 21:13:34 arghl 21:13:36 (in-package #:cl-user) doesn't even protect against anything 21:13:37 *antifuchs* fails 21:13:51 leo2007: IMO, until you've in-package'd into *your own package*, you should *use no unqualified symbols* 21:13:52 if defpackage isn't visible, in-package isn't either 21:14:02 1.0.29.45 clean, going for 1.0.29.51 21:14:41 -!- cl-newb [n=john@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:14:52 otoh, maybe your user has some clever gimmick that works starting with shadowing in-package, and if you cl: then you defeat it :-) 21:15:38 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:55 kpreid: it would be fun to make a sadistic version of asdf 21:16:12 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-16.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:16:23 setting up the build environment in the worst possible state for each source file 21:16:34 a deleted package? *ducks* 21:16:43 rouslan [n=Rouslan@pool-71-255-131-124.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:15 I know someone who wrote a perverse map type 21:17:23 it deliberately permuted its order of iteration 21:17:40 cl-newb [n=john@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:57 lispm: scratch that, it did that before....."my newb" 21:18:30 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 21:18:52 kpreid: oh no, one that has a couple of strangely shadowed symbols you see some programs expecting 21:19:11 that map type sounds sweet 21:19:14 -!- dto [n=user@98.118.1.212] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:19:21 definitely would help with asdf dependency debugging 21:19:32 the motivation was that the current implementation was order-preserving, but future ones wouldn't 21:19:43 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:19:54 (when I tested, the hashtable traversal order is mostly stable on one machine, but is different on another) 21:20:50 (so missing dependencies sometimes go unnoticed if they're between components with a similar enough dependency rank) 21:20:50 I'd rather not have a nondeterministic build 21:21:09 if you have missing dependencies in a non-:serial system, that is what you get. 21:21:15 kpreid: yes 21:21:20 tmh: are you there? 21:21:36 Doesn't xcvb obviate dependency debugging? 21:21:40 it's just not as random as it needs to be for people to notice early enough (: 21:21:41 antifuchs: I mean from run to run, not machine to machine 21:21:43 leo2007: You rang. 21:21:58 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.251.181] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:22:20 tmh: any idea how to use lisp-unit to test for example a function that does matrix multiplication? 21:22:25 kpreid: I would prefer my builds to fail if they are specified wrong (: 21:22:52 dys [n=andreas@p5B316DED.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:07 if your build is relying on explicitly undefined behavior (that of a hashtable traversal order being stable), does it deserve to succeed? (: 21:23:48 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:08 Yes. What to want to compare, the relative error of each element or the relative error norm? This assumes you checked out the expanded interface branch, which I would recommend because I think that is where we are going with the interface. 21:25:07 tmh: of each element 21:25:30 leo2007: I'll paste an example. 21:25:35 tmh: many thanks 21:25:36 antifuchs: so would I 21:25:47 antifuchs: but avoiding nondeterministic hair-pulling trumps that 21:26:04 what is relative error norm? the det of the matrix? 21:26:06 given a choice between a silently missing dep and a nondeterministic build, I'll take the missing dep 21:26:31 well, right now you're just delegating the hair-pulling to somebody else (: 21:26:35 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:26:46 it'll reproducibly fail on their machine, no? 21:26:55 <_3b> less hair pulling if they have a deterministic but different build 21:27:22 deepfire: a dependency-free testcase, even if largish would be nice. I have to go though, and won't have net access for a couple hours still 21:27:24 leo2007: It's the relative error between an element-wise measure of the exact and approximate matrix. ||exact-approximate||/||exact|| 21:29:20 ok, tmh, just pick whatever you think it is the best for the moment, I am indifferent 21:29:59 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-1774dd33aa8ba3cf] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:30:30 tmh pasted "LISP-UNIT example matrix test" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82923 21:31:28 tmh: excellent 21:31:34 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:32:26 leo2007: Well, it would probably be better if you picked. At the top of the file 'floating-point.lisp' there are a bunch of generic function definitions. That's about as good as it gets for an overview at the moment. The documentation if further down the file, it's the code. I'll get around to real documentation once the interface settles down. 21:33:33 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["leaving"] 21:34:18 leo2007: Then you (run-tests). There is some documentation is the repository that would give you an overview using lisp-unit. The floating point section is obsolete. 21:34:47 At least for the 'Expanded Interface' branch. 21:34:49 I'm messing around with a chatbot -- is there a way to sandbox lisp so I can use him as an evalbot? 21:35:54 tmh: i tried (run-tests matrix-test) and it says no value 21:36:20 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:36:22 I suspect 1.0.29.53 21:37:24 leo2007: Make sure you're in the test package at the REPL. 21:37:38 1.0.29.51 clean, going for 1.0.29.53 21:37:44 tmh: yes, just tried that 21:37:52 sykopomp: you have to use your operating system facilities. 21:37:56 leo2007: Also, make sure you checked out the expanded-interface branch 21:38:10 the definition of CL is such that it is very difficult to construct a sandbox within a CL system 21:38:24 nobody has yet completed an attempt to do so 21:38:28 leo2007 annotated #82923 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82923#1 21:38:42 tmh: see that paste 21:38:43 kpreid: alright. Thanks. 21:39:10 leo2007: What does your define-test form look like? 21:40:22 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:40:22 kpreid, how many resources were spent trying, though.. 21:41:07 ausente [n=user7994@187.35.196.144] has joined #lisp 21:41:12 leo2007: NM, I have enough info to test on my end. 21:41:16 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-229-88-51.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:26 Although I realise that it's hard to put the metagenie back into the bottle. 21:41:41 tmh: it is 7.3999996 and 7.4, but it still considers them different 21:41:48 mjf [n=mjf@r11gz66.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 21:42:10 -!- MWP_ [n=na@dhcp-11-166.ucsc.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 21:43:14 tmh: maybe there's a bug 21:43:31 leo2007 annotated #82923 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82923#2 21:43:55 -!- ausente is now known as dalton 21:44:01 leo2007: jm phone 21:44:03 MWP_ [n=na@dhcp-11-166.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 21:44:27 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-29-6.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:44:52 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 21:44:54 ?? 21:45:13 leo2007: There could be, but I've run this on a very large library. (That was Just-a-minute, on the phone, I'm off now) 21:45:40 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:46:08 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@x-132-204-254-43.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:47:21 leo2007: Ok. the bug is that the error reporting should be better. It's failing because it is trying to compare 2 rational numbers, 14 and 14. For my testing purposes, that is an error. A little pedantic, but I find it useful. 21:48:10 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-127-86.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:48:22 tmh annotated #82923 "leo2007 - All Floats" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82923#3 21:49:59 deepfire: it might well be possible, but it's not a simple project 21:50:14 leo2007: Got to go, kids have swim lessons. I should be back later tonight. 21:50:16 there's lots of *design* work involved, and then you'd also have to write or modify a CL implementation 21:50:50 leo2007 annotated #82923 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82923#4 21:50:59 tmh: still fails 21:51:10 tmh: ok 21:51:53 leo2007: If you run the exact paste I just made, it still fails? 21:52:37 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:53:23 sellout [n=greg@63.118.137.211] has joined #lisp 21:53:40 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-255-112.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:57 damn flaky dsl connections! 21:56:34 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r11gz66.net.upc.cz] has quit ["GNU is *indeed* No UNIX!"] 21:56:34 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 21:57:09 -!- MWP_ [n=na@dhcp-11-166.ucsc.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 21:58:33 Yes, 1.0.29.53 is bad. Checking if .52 is good.. 21:58:50 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-59e43a91d3dda6c9] has joined #lisp 21:59:03 -!- kidd [n=kidd@111.Red-193-152-161.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:59:32 -!- Blkt [n=Blkt@dynamic-adsl-94-37-236-153.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:00:15 Well, it's nearly boring, because .52 is about target-char.lisp, whereas I'm pretty damn sure that .53's L-T-V changes bite me. 22:02:25 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:03:26 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-29-6.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:04:06 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:04:57 -!- Muld [i=wr23@88.196.43.189] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:06:06 -!- rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:06:32 kidd [n=kidd@111.Red-193-152-161.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:44 *p_l* notices that Emacs isn't, after all, Genera, and that mouse might not always work on links 22:07:39 Gertm` [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 22:07:42 -!- xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has quit ["Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.2.0"] 22:07:59 uhh 22:09:21 jmbr [n=jmbr@177.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 22:09:56 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 22:10:03 -!- ejs0 [n=eugen@69-51-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:10:46 -!- hyperbor1ean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit ["leaving"] 22:10:46 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:57 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-229-88-51.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:11:32 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 22:12:43 -!- cl-newb [n=john@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:14:36 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:14:58 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:15:27 minion, memo for pkhuong: 1.0.29.53 is the first bad commit. 22:15:28 Remembered. I'll tell pkhuong when he/she/it next speaks. 22:17:03 tmh: yes 22:17:04 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:17:22 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:55 can loop go though something like #2A((a b c d e f))? 22:18:30 counting indexes, sure 22:19:10 antifuchs: are you answering my question? Could you elaborate if so? 22:19:29 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:19:42 I want to change #2A(a b c d e f g) to (a b c d e f g) 22:20:04 -!- nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving the office... and hopefully soon, the state."] 22:20:07 sorry, should be #2A((a b c d e f g)) 22:20:47 (loop for i from 0 to (array-dimensions the-array 1) do (print (aref the-array 0 i))) 22:21:01 nest that for the other index as well 22:21:39 might have to be "below" instead of "to", I'm not sure in my sleep-deprived state 22:21:49 ok 22:23:22 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:24:14 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:25:15 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-24-18-248-252.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:25:31 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-24-18-248-252.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:02 leo2007: also, have a look at displaced arrays, and at row-major-aref. 22:29:09 iisjmii [n=iisjmii@dhcp-077-248-127-112.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 22:29:44 newbie question: How do I undefine a initialize-instant method of a class? 22:29:54 instance 22:30:10 that;s right, sorry 22:30:11 iisjmii: like you would remove any other method... 22:30:15 remove-method 22:31:04 if you have a good ide you get a right click menu on a method and can choose remove-method 22:31:25 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-2734.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:31:30 thanks, it works 22:36:17 -!- iisjmii [n=iisjmii@dhcp-077-248-127-112.chello.nl] has quit ["leaving"] 22:37:06 demmel [n=demmel@p5B0C3071.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:37:37 pjb: r-m-a is what I use 22:38:26 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:39:17 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:47 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:41:12 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:45:56 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5/20090624025744]"] 22:46:46 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:50:03 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 22:51:10 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-53-236.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:34 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:56:12 benny` [n=benny@i577A03D8.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:58:38 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:00:02 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:02:41 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-4-216.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:46 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-127-86.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:04:20 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 23:07:22 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-f3e1fa3cafd932dd] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:08:10 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 23:09:51 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229238109.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 23:10:49 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0B36.versanet.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:14:04 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:17:24 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:21:14 -!- faure [n=moe@CPE001217e40caa-CM0018c0c09832.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:22:20 Anyone using parenscript with jQuery? Any caveats? 23:23:14 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:25:02 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:28:16 -!- A_anekos is now known as anekos 23:29:02 -!- sellout [n=greg@63.118.137.211] has quit [] 23:29:36 demmel_ [n=demmel@p5B0C31D2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:30:52 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:37:28 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:37:29 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177123051.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 23:42:16 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:44:01 -!- asksol [n=ask@127.241.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:44:25 -!- demmel [n=demmel@p5B0C3071.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:45:04 sellout [n=greg@63.118.137.211] has joined #lisp 23:46:00 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-2d63eee385a8530c] has joined #lisp 23:47:05 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Success] 23:50:12 rukubites [n=user@d58-110-111-39.meb8.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:51:15 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B2DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:52:08 Hi all. Say I have a hash (key -> fixnum). Is the behaviour of the following snippet defined, and will it do what I expect? (loop for key being the hash-key of hash using (hash-value value) do (setf (gethash key hash) (* value value))) 23:52:34 The question is whether resetting/updating the values of the hash will interfere with the iteration. 23:53:00 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_f.htm 23:54:21 Thank you, sir Zach 23:55:56 For the record, the hyperspec says that the above is all good. 23:55:57 minion: logs 23:55:58 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 23:57:12 back to the hack 23:57:16 -!- rukubites [n=user@d58-110-111-39.meb8.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"]