00:02:18 -!- ruediger_ [n=ruediger@62-47-155-114.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:02:36 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-138-193-165.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 00:03:15 -!- fiveop__ [n=fiveop@pD9E6CBE9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 00:04:00 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:07 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-204-224.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:45 Is this possibly right: approximately 1/340 workers in the U.S. are computer programmers? 00:08:02 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 00:09:02 Around 340e6 workers (order of magnitude) that makes 1 million programmers. Sounds right. 00:09:10 Wow. 00:09:10 that'd be somewhat less than half a million people. That sounds right. 00:09:41 Crazy to think that 1/3 of the people I interviewed for Coders at Work wore born into a world with 0 computer programmers. 00:10:22 (Ignoring Ada Lovelace, and a few other misc. people who could be claimed to be programmers.) 00:11:31 gigamonkey: you interviewed someone born before 1852? =p 00:12:03 hefner: Nope. She was dead by the time they were born. :-P 00:13:24 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:13:25 And according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, approximately 1 in 40 of U.S. workers are in the major category of "Computer and mathematical science occupations" 00:15:03 But since unfortunately lisp programmers numbers are insignificant, the increase of productivity you'd expect from this big number of "programmers" doesn't realize. 00:15:47 Before they pushed physical buttons, nowadays they push virtual buttons on computer screens, but they're still doing the work, instead of letting the computers do the work for us and let us go on holidays. 00:16:16 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:16:26 I'm trying to think of another profession that has had that kind of rapid growth from 0 to huge over a similar time span. 00:16:27 Nowadays, people work more than in the middle age. At that time, they had at least 4 months of holidays (counting only religious holidays). 00:16:28 also, many jobs use programming skills but might not be counted among programming 00:16:35 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:53 Car mechanics? TV repairmens? GSM phone sellers? 00:17:17 Various places in administration, sometimes not even IT administration 00:17:25 -!- slyson [n=joe@92-234-146-79.cable.ubr19.live.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:17:38 -!- jlf [n=user@209.204.171.101] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:17:42 though I might just have skewed view of how administrator should work (TM4SA rulz!) 00:17:53 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:18:17 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 00:18:35 pjb: yeah. I was just checking TV and Radio announcers. 00:18:43 But repair folks are probably much more numerous. 00:19:08 gigamonkey: marketing? 00:19:54 -!- fawxtin [n=user@200-138-201-32.fnsce704.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:21:07 p_l: The oldest profession, no? ;-) 00:21:16 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.61.194] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:21:23 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.42.247] has joined #lisp 00:22:15 About 1/200 US workers are "Automotive service technicians and mechanics" 00:25:37 gigamonkey: no, the oldest profession is quite different. The second oldest is only slightly younger, but much less honorable 00:25:52 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:26:55 hefner: Testing a fresh iteration of the SSE stuff. It should be up on repo soon. 00:26:58 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 00:27:01 professional marketing was waaay later. And thankfully is less rotten profession than being career politician 00:27:25 p_l: So, I know what "the oldest profession" actually is. But what's the second? 00:28:23 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-69-254.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 00:28:52 gigamonkey: politician 00:29:17 Ah. Yes. I was thinking priest but back then probably the same thing. 00:30:00 I think priest came way later (as profession). It took time to create a belief system instead of praying to Random Number God 00:33:44 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:35 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-233-205.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:47 bobf_ [n=bob@host81-154-10-254.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:39:56 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:42:03 cods_ [n=cods@tuxee.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:08 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:43:31 hefner: SSE stuff up at http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/pkhuong.git?a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/sse-pack-bis 00:44:47 plage [n=user@118.71.57.230] has joined #lisp 00:44:50 good morning 00:45:06 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-204-224.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:45:12 syntaxfree [n=eigenmac@201.12.108.119] has joined #lisp 00:45:29 hi plage 00:47:45 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:14 -!- cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 00:50:29 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-204-224.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:05 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-69-254.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:52:13 "Twitter" 00:54:19 your punchline is missing a joke. 00:54:56 hey fe[nl]ix. Got mail from Blkt. 00:55:11 I like to see how people react to the word. 00:55:12 -!- dysinger [n=tim@166.129.210.64] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:56:22 syntaxfree: I think that's what Fade just did. 00:57:31 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-69-254.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 00:58:09 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:59:15 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:00:09 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:00:36 yes. which is why I haven't said anything more. I wouldn't want to disrupt affairs more than the strictly necessary to conduct that ad hoc experiment. 01:02:16 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:02:39 pkhuong: cool. I'll have to take that for a spin (as soon as google tells me how to get at the branch) 01:03:06 when working with assoc, what would y'all do if you wanted to return a special value if there was no entry? (entries might be NIL, after all) 01:03:49 I'd do what gethash does. 01:04:06 sykopomp: for an ALIST? NIL is not a value as assoc returns the entire cons 01:04:07 you could write a monad interface and a maybe monad. 01:04:36 drewc: oh, that's right. 01:05:00 I feel like an idiot. Wrote a bunch of abstraction and forgot I was cdring :) 01:05:02 thanks 01:05:02 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:05:06 Bigshot_ [n=BIG_SHOT@CPE002129abc864-CM001ac35cd4d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:05:23 no worries. 01:05:45 has anyone got cool highlighting for their lisp code - give me your .emacs please 'cause default highlighting sucks 01:06:13 Bigshot: depends on your platform and religion. 01:06:30 ah. sorry, I didn't catch the .emacs bit. 01:06:37 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 01:06:43 Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:45 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:02 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-75-2.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 01:07:59 oops i am talking about slime 01:08:15 mostly all use slime in here :-P 01:08:59 *Sikander* tries to go unnoticed. 01:09:11 Yeah, I'm just here as a tourist. 01:09:25 slash amateur anthropologist. 01:09:36 oh man don't talk about "anthropology" 01:09:44 I'm trying to learn the secret handshake. 01:09:47 ok, I won't. 01:09:57 :) 01:10:11 syntaxfree: you use slime? 01:10:50 He's thinking of some colourful answer, most likely... 01:11:02 yeah 01:11:16 Involving slime, ooze and all sorts of gunk. 01:11:26 I've always been a vi type. 01:11:39 Nowadays I use TextWrangler for work, though. 01:11:39 *Sikander* tries to go unnoticed... again... 01:12:01 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 01:12:54 So my 1/340 workers being computer programmers was a big undercount. It's at least more like 1 in 110. 01:13:22 gigamonkey: in what?... 01:13:42 sykopomp: U.S. 01:13:49 Accordin the the Bureau of Labor Statistics. 01:13:54 inforichland [n=inforich@96-42-29-58.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:13:59 wow 01:14:00 depending on how you shake it, my day job might qualify as computer programming. 01:14:05 html programmers? :) 01:14:13 just what I wanted to ask! 01:14:18 I bet it's the COBOL CABAL 01:14:28 though I mostly write Stata/Mata code, and most of it is really more documentation than reusable code. 01:14:45 Well, they have a classification for "Computer programmer" and two more for "Computer Software Engineer" (Applications and Systems Software) 01:15:02 anyone have any idea what to do when starting slime, you get this error? Symbol "INIT" not found in the SWANK-LOADER package 01:15:07 So yeah, there are clearly tons more people who actually write code. 01:15:23 Do they write... good code? 01:15:33 *Sikander* likes asking silly questions. 01:15:37 ("Documentation" meaning that the code is a referentially invariant transform from raw data to statistical results) 01:15:46 hm 01:16:01 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-204-224.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:16:05 gigamonkey: I think more people are involved with programming than that. Think office suite macros. 01:16:11 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-204-224.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:16:20 syntaxfree: FAIL 01:16:41 (if (= 3 3) (progn (print "hi") (print "yo") (print "whassup!") 9 10) (+ 4 2 3)) ;; how to call this program so that it prints? i only see 10 01:16:42 ;) 01:16:45 (They're not really macros like Lisp macros; more like OO interfaces to the office suite functions) 01:17:00 so I've been thinking -- are there any code-analyzers out there for lisp that count s-exps and actually take into account things like (:documentation "foo") and count that stuff as documentation? 01:17:38 i wrote the above proggy in a file and try to run it 01:17:41 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:42 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:51 but i only see 10 what about the rest 01:17:52 Bigshot_: It should print out other stuff. Perhaps not in the same place? 01:18:12 isn't there a bot here that refers people to the hyperlinked common lisp reference docs? 01:18:26 (awful syntax, but wasn't there one?) 01:18:31 Bigshot_: worksforme 01:18:40 what? 01:18:41 Bigshot_: your *standard-output* might be going to the wrong place. 01:18:52 minion: logs 01:18:52 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 01:19:08 minion: help clhs 01:19:30 minion: tell syntaxfree about clhs 01:19:31 syntaxfree: direct your attention towards clhs: To look up a symbol in the HyperSpec, try saying "clhs symbol". For more information on the HyperSpec see http://www.cliki.net/CLHS . 01:20:46 sykopomp: how to redirect output to proper place? 01:20:56 Bigshot_: what are you using? slime? 01:21:00 yeah 01:21:20 hm 01:21:55 anyway, I was just going to say "clhs progn". 01:22:46 anyone have any idea what to do when starting slime, you get this error? Symbol "INIT" not found in the SWANK-LOADER package 01:23:17 no clue sykopomp? 01:23:34 I forget how to do it. Slime should already be redirecting it... 01:23:41 chupish [i=182ed347@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-880f6df8ead6ffe0] has joined #lisp 01:24:18 oh, and you're on windows. 01:24:25 *sykopomp* wonders if it's the lack of threads. 01:24:32 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:04 lisper whisper 01:25:30 took me a while to parse "if you're on windows". 01:25:45 I don't have windows, I have glass sliding doors that lead to a varanda. 01:25:49 -!- cods_ [n=cods@tuxee.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:25:54 troll! 01:25:59 (varanda? veranda?) 01:26:03 inforichland: More info needed, I think. What lisp? The debugger backtrace should help. 01:26:13 rtoym: i have sbcl 01:26:23 i installed clojure a while ago, and now my slime install won't start 01:26:37 inforichland: how did you install swank/slime, what platform, etc 01:27:06 rtoym: any ideas how to look at the full output in slime? 01:27:07 i have the cvs version of slime on linux 01:27:42 http://www.google.com/search?hl=hu&client=safari&rls=hu-hu&q=%22a+while+ago%22+%22and+now+my%22+%22won%27t+start%22&btnG=Keresés&lr= 01:27:46 Bigshot_: I've never used slime on windows, so I don't really know. Maybe look at *inferior-lisp*? 01:27:48 How do you show more info about the error, given a # object? 01:27:56 even if just the message 01:27:58 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:29:39 rtoym: i see the output in inferior lisp but now how to i get back to where i was? i.e. coding 01:29:53 s/to/do 01:30:02 close? 01:30:11 What is the general approach of holding data (numbers in a tabular way) when you generate it in lisp? Is it a list of lists, or simple arrays? 01:30:23 (when you generate that data in lisp) 01:30:37 rtoym: is there a key i could use to switch between inferior lisp and the coding window? 01:30:44 Bigshot_: Look at *standard-output* and *standard-error*. Or try printing stuff to other standard streams to see which one goes to the slime buffer. 01:30:59 Sikander: depends, what kind of relationship does this stuff have? 01:31:02 Sorry I can't be more helpful. I'm just a slime luser. 01:31:07 Sikander: however you want? 01:31:13 haha 01:31:22 if you want numbers in a tabular way, and your data size is well-defined, you might want to use 2d arrays 01:31:27 what do you use then rtoym? 01:31:30 sykopomp: Typically, I have a column of X values, and generate a bunch of y values. 01:31:46 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.254.103] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:31:48 Bigshot_: cmucl + slime (relatively old) 01:31:53 2d arrays don't "grow" easily, right? 01:32:19 (also, no nice single format recipe to dump the thing in a file...) 01:32:22 Sikander: vectors of vectors?... 01:32:38 the problem with using trees is that they don't grow very elegantly. 01:32:52 2d arrays may be adjustable, but the rows and columns may be disturbed when resizing. 01:32:58 yeah 01:33:09 Well, I was thinking of generating data by pushing lists onto a row and at the end reversing the whole thing 01:33:22 pushing lists onto a *list) 01:33:26 d'oh 01:33:30 can't type any more 01:33:35 Sikander: not a bad way. 01:33:54 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.128.67] has joined #lisp 01:34:05 sykopomp: how to toggle comments in emacs any shortcut key? 01:34:23 M-; 01:34:26 Ok, I was just checking. I don't need to access specific points, only sequentially. That's why lists seemed ok. 01:35:16 M-; doesn't toggle comments for me. 01:37:11 -!- chupish [i=182ed347@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-880f6df8ead6ffe0] has left #lisp 01:37:27 C-c ; and C-u C-c ; toggles comments. But not for Lisp by default. 01:39:02 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:39:23 pjb: where did you get that tip from? 01:39:48 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:26 ok, how to delete selected code - all at once? 01:42:46 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-e5ecf9c5c24a5be1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:42:50 cods [n=cods@tuxee.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:06 C-w. Del might work. 01:43:07 Bigshot_: default config won't comment out the line, but place a comment after it (as if you were adding comments to code, I know, rare nowadays ^_-) To delete, use standard region operations 01:43:27 Bigshot_: You should probably read an emacs tutorial. 01:43:45 Bigshot_: C-h t 01:44:06 Bigshot_: it will open a tutorial which covers text editing in Emacs 01:44:12 ok thanks 01:45:34 -!- knobo [n=user@216-55-7.100710.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:45:57 knobo [n=user@216-55-7.100710.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 01:46:32 BigDiesel07 [i=PPCGeeks@98.27.67.205] has joined #lisp 01:46:52 I have a lisp.. It is so humiliating when I have to give speeches :( 01:47:10 vkumar [n=vk@adsl-210-172-154.sdf.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:11 you're among friends here. 01:47:23 good 01:47:30 that thuckth 01:47:32 I hate spitting when I say my s's 01:49:55 -!- BigDiesel07 [i=PPCGeeks@98.27.67.205] has left #lisp 01:50:53 bbiab 01:51:02 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060214]"] 01:51:51 jlf [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-67.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 01:54:38 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.128.203] has joined #lisp 01:55:20 -!- antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:55:23 Bigshot_: M-x apropos RET comment RET then scan the commands about comments. When you find the one you like, the shortcuts are indicated in its help page. 01:55:34 antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:59 bdowning_ [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:23 Is there an easy way to throw errors with a message and get them back out? 01:56:42 just (error "Hey, X is wrong, idiot!") and be able to catch that & print it elsewhere 01:57:14 Phoodus: This is probably a bad way to do it, but you *could* have an errono-esque global var. 01:57:26 Bigshot_: actually, M-; is bound to paredit-comment-dwim ; to edit lisp code, you should get paredit.el 01:57:35 Ralith: no, I've got a number of errors firing 01:57:36 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:57:37 minion: tell Bigshot_ about paredit 01:57:38 Bigshot_: look at paredit: a set of Emacs commands, with a minor mode for convenient access to them, for editing balanced S-expressions and a number of higher-level operations on S-expressions, at ; see also the #paredit channel 01:57:47 Ralith: what is a "good" way to do it? 01:57:58 -!- bdowning_ is now known as bdowning 01:57:59 -!- amnesiac_ [n=amnesiac@charanda.shochu.sandino.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:58:12 Phoodus: I think generally you're supposed to have the error itself be specific enough that you can generate a meaningful human-readable message at the top level. 01:58:46 how? 01:59:04 basically, I'm catching & reporting errors to a foreign process 01:59:15 On the repl, it works fine, displaying the simple-error message 01:59:35 well, find out how the repl does it. 01:59:37 But even if I know it to be a simple-error object, I can't work out how to get at the message 01:59:55 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:59:56 perhaps the PCL chapter on handling conditions has something relevant? 02:00:14 the other guy working on this already looked through it :-P 02:00:23 well, that's about the limit of what I can offer. 02:00:40 well, thanks anyway 02:01:19 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:01:55 -!- vkumar [n=vk@adsl-210-172-154.sdf.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 02:04:33 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:07:52 When using with-room-for-graphics, do you still have to specify a stream if all the functions in the body each specify the same stream? 02:08:17 ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 02:10:39 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2EB22.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:11:05 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.128.67] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:12:21 Sikander: yes. although if you're using *standard-output*, you can supply t. 02:13:03 hefner: But theoretically, this allows for supplying different streams for each drawing function in the body, and even for the with-room-for-graphics... Is that... allowed? 02:14:56 I hesitate to ask this question... But here goes: is there a way to draw anti-aliassed stuff in clim? It's cool to have mcclim-freetype, but it looks weird together with blocky graphics... :( 02:16:20 pjb: paredit isn't necessary for that, afaik. At least I use it without paredit.el :D 02:16:38 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:27 Sikander: using the CLX backend, no (although I have a not-ready-for-prime-time hotpatch to add antialiased line drawing). The Gtkairo backend can do it using a cairo medium, but I don't know if it happens by default. 02:20:57 Sikander: and the bezier curve code does antialiasing, too. 02:21:02 (forgot about that) 02:21:31 hefner: Thanks. The gtkairo backend shows a terrible listener, though. The menu is all screwed up, and it doesn't seem very responsive. 02:21:47 (the listener doesn't seem responsive) 02:22:05 ah. Gtkairo is a bit undermaintained at the moment. 02:22:15 ok 02:22:37 (Advertisement: Hackers Wanted) 02:23:07 kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:28 hefner: would a pure Cairo backend be appreciated? 02:30:24 though I'm very curious at trying to write a WPF backend one day :D 02:30:43 cairo's just a drawing library. 02:31:00 aren't gtk widgets also drawn with cairo? 02:31:04 hefner: cairo for drawing part and CLX for rest of X11 integration 02:31:25 you could do that, I guess. 02:31:40 Sikander: GTK widgets are drawn by GDK, at least that's how it was some time ago 02:32:26 p_l: yeah, I remember that. But I thought there was some talk many years ago to use cairo, since it was supposed to be the pinnacle of drawing libraries... 02:32:58 maybe someone tried it and realized it'd be slow as hell or something (not that this usually stops anyone, these days) 02:33:12 -!- inforichland [n=inforich@96-42-29-58.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit [] 02:33:16 Sikander: hahaha. The change was because X11 backend gave lower quality rendering 02:33:51 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-197-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:11 Cairo of course still goes through X11, but it does it's work slightly differently (read: vector graphics) and supports the same on more platforms 02:34:19 hefner: While learning mcclim, I was toying with the idea of writing a clim terminal for gnuplot; send a plot command, and it sends a clim drawing back... But the returned "string" should be eval'ed. Is that a problem? Would there be interest in such a thing (10 year plan, mind you) 02:34:41 p_l: and has postscript, pdf, png and svg backends 02:34:50 Sikander: I don't grok. 02:35:02 Sikander: I doubt eval would be actually needed 02:35:19 I'm not such a huge fan of vector graphics. They're pretty, but it's a lot of complexity for a small payoff. 02:35:27 hefner: in gnuplot, you can set a "terminal". For instance, if you set it to pdf, it generates the pdf plot. 02:36:04 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 02:36:12 hefner: I was toying with the idea of adding a clim "terminal" and sending (over a pipe) plotting instructions to gnuplot, which then returns a string that is the clim drawing functions 02:36:45 ah. 02:36:55 This way, the graph is still constructed by gnuplot (so you don't have to reinvent the wheel for, for instance, 3d styles etc), while it's a clim object. Is that interesting? 02:37:12 or rather, clim drawing instructions 02:37:29 depends how hard reinventing the wheel is. 02:37:30 (which would have to be read from the pipe and eval'ed, I guess) 02:37:51 hefner: Well, I think gnuplot can do some pretty fancy things... 02:38:15 Of course, the easy way is plotting to a png and loading that into clim 02:38:34 But I was toying with this idea, of then being able to add events to the graph... 02:38:42 -!- plage [n=user@118.71.57.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:39:08 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:39:35 simplest event: reading coordinate positions with a mouse over 02:40:43 well, reinventing the wheel _would_ also teach me a lot about clim... 02:41:38 so, hefner, has git given way yet? 02:42:15 pkhuong: yeah, I figured out the magic switches to git checkout. I built your SBCL, but probably won't do much with it until tomorrow. 02:44:04 p_l: cairo used to be a pile of shit performance-wise 02:44:26 must have improved quite a bit by now 02:45:08 xristos: I recently made (in ocaml) a 2d raytracing app where you could move stuff around and it would trace the rays in realtime. Worked fine. 02:45:27 xristos: yeah, being the only thing XRender cares outside of Xft must have helped :> 02:45:29 It did put a load on my computer, though, but it was very smooth 02:46:21 hefner: git checkout -b branchname remotename/branchname ? 02:46:53 p_l: gtk 2.8 uses it for rendering 02:47:04 S11001001: I used git checkout --track -b branchname 02:47:04 firefox too i think 02:47:19 p_l: why did you say (earlier) that eval would not be needed (gnuplot thingy)? 02:49:31 Sikander: I thought that putting out a limited tree, reading it and then having code on Lisp side transform it into apriopriate routines would be better than eval. Maybe more complicated, but... feels more elegant and interesting :-) 02:50:32 p_l: woo, that sounds... advanced. I'm just a lisp beginner, you know :) Is there some place on the web you can point me to? 02:50:48 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-168-238-3.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:51:19 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:25 s0ber [i=pie@220-136-226-109.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:39 Sikander: not really - I recall some examples of that, but it's something worth learning 02:52:41 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 02:52:52 p_l: I recently bought dead-tree versions of ansi common lisp and practical common lisp, which I'm reading now. Any examples of this in there? 02:53:19 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:53:29 Sikander: Try PAIP 02:53:35 can't recall now, but I think PAIP had some 02:53:46 haven't read ansi common lisp, so I can't tell 02:53:53 *Sikander* thinks hard on what PAIP can mean... 02:53:59 !paip 02:54:11 minion: paip 02:54:13 paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/paip 02:54:18 sykopomp: Thanks. 02:54:18 d'oh! 02:54:25 minion: thank you. 02:54:26 np 02:54:49 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 02:54:51 I'll have a look, thanks 02:55:01 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:57:13 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.128.113] has joined #lisp 02:58:51 fawxtin [n=user@201.67.237.113] has joined #lisp 03:00:08 Zhivago: Around? 03:01:02 -!- Schaefer [n=rileygoo@38.117.250.220] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:02:14 Why don't we have hygienic macros in CL? 03:02:53 Quadrescence: because CL is a lisp-2 and it wasn't as huge of a problem as it was in scheme? 03:02:56 that's my guess. 03:03:00 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-233-205.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:03:06 sykopomp: I was just trolling. D: 03:03:29 Quadrescence: Heh. I was about to tell you to be less obvious about it. 03:03:37 Quadrescence: some people like making a big fuss about it :P 03:04:32 sykopomp: I'd add that idioms and tools for dealing with the problem (gensym, et al) evolved early enough that it didn't become a strong enough concern. 03:05:54 Also, if I have the timeline right, the good hygenic macro systems weren't developed until a fair bit later. 03:07:28 Finally, hygenic macros strike of protecting the programmer from themselves, and that never works out. :-) 03:07:58 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:08:46 *aja* 's father used to opine "You can't prevent idiots from doing stupid things, but you can prevent geniuses from doing clever things." 03:08:49 xinming__ [n=hyy@218.73.140.249] has joined #lisp 03:09:05 aja: it works out fine. 03:09:47 The only difference is that capture is explicit, instead of having to explicitly avoid capture as with gensym (and even that is only a partial solution). 03:10:06 hmm 03:10:07 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.128.113] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:10:37 ~/hackery/lisp/path-to-something.git $ git cvsimport -p x -v -d :pserver:anonymous@common-lisp.net:/project/something/cvsroot something 03:10:37 AuthReply: I HATE YOU 03:10:41 that's not good, is it? 03:11:12 :( 03:11:24 pkhuong: OK, I can accept that. Was stating a general principle -- I always become deeply suspicious when I see anything that smacks of "using X is error prone, better make it impossible." Possibly the result of unreconciled trauma from Pascal teachers during my youth. 03:11:39 s0ber_ [i=pie@220-136-226-122.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:45 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 03:13:15 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 03:13:40 s0ber__ [i=pie@118-160-171-240.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:41 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.128.203] has quit [Success] 03:14:07 is that a common-lisp.net thing?... 03:14:08 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-37.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:41 oh no it's not 03:14:50 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:16:37 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:17:55 milanj [n=milan@91.150.101.6] has joined #lisp 03:18:39 -!- s0ber__ [i=pie@118-160-171-240.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:18:53 s0ber__ [n=s0ber@118-160-171-240.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:30 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-214-190.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:42 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 03:20:24 mindCrime [n=chatzill@cpe-076-182-103-085.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:20:34 evening 03:20:46 -!- milanj [n=milan@91.150.101.6] has quit [Client Quit] 03:21:35 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-176.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:26:08 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:28:46 -!- s0ber [i=pie@220-136-226-109.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:29:50 -!- s0ber_ [i=pie@220-136-226-122.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:31:12 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 03:32:22 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:02 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 03:33:53 any cl-who users? Got a problem building a table from a list of strings. 03:36:12 saikat_ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 03:38:16 saikat__ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 03:38:47 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 03:38:59 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:47:44 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-214-190.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:49:09 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-241-16-17.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:21 -!- Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.121.200] has quit [No route to host] 03:54:58 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:55:58 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:16 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:57:19 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:57:21 chavo_ [n=user@c-66-41-11-10.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:05 -!- syntaxfree [n=eigenmac@201.12.108.119] has quit ["Computer goes to sleep!"] 03:58:15 fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has joined #lisp 04:04:44 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:05:02 fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has joined #lisp 04:05:53 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-140-190.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:30 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:15:19 How would one go about drawing a polyline in clim? 04:15:54 I have a sequence of point objects... 04:17:09 b 04:18:44 clim draw-points 04:18:45 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/12-5.html#_620 04:18:49 is that what you want? 04:18:55 er, no 04:19:02 clim draw-lines 04:19:02 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/12-5.html#_624 04:20:04 It doesn't seem to draw a polyline. It draws each line piecewise (so point1-point2 then point3-point4 etc) 04:20:30 oh, of course. it even says that. I should try reading the spec. 04:20:50 it's weird, you can make a polyline object, but there's no draw-polyline 04:21:19 my current guess is draw-polygon* :filled nil :closed nil 04:21:37 yeah... it looks a bit weird, though, but I'll try it again 04:22:09 in theory, you can draw your polyline object with draw-design. I wonder if it would work. 04:22:44 oh, wait, the reason it looked weird, is because I forgot the :filled nil. draw-polygon is fine. Sorry about that. 04:23:28 justin` [n=justin@ip24-250-39-58.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:26 should I set the bounding box by had when I use with-room-for-graphics? The polygon draws straight through the prompt above... 04:25:23 when just using draw-points on the same set of points, it draws it fine. Weird 04:25:38 Hey guys I'm having trouble with part of this homework problem. Bascially we have to make some modifactions to a LunarLander program... Anyway this one paragraph is completely stumping me as to what it wants me to do: "Alyssa has noticed that David has forgotten to take account of the fact that the lander might run out of fuel. If there is x amount of fuel left, then, no matter what rate is specified, the maximum (av 04:25:39 erage) rate at which fuel can be burned during the next time interval is (/ x dt). (Why? Imagine what happens if you burn f gallons of fuel per second for Dtseconds when you have less than fDtgallons... you run out of gas a little earlier than expected!...)" 04:25:44 Sikander: not sure what you mean. 04:26:08 sorry i know that's long and this isn't extremely lisp related, im just completely baffled and feel dumb 04:26:26 I have a set of points. When doing a (with-room-for-graphics (t) (draw-points *standard-output* *my-points*)), the points are plotted fine 04:27:22 and when you draw using draw-polygon, it isn't positioned properly, as though it miscalculated the bounding rectangle? 04:27:25 When using (with-room-for-graphics (t) (draw-polygon *standard-output* *my-points* :filled nil :closed nil)), the upper part of the polygon (actually, the top point) is "inside" the prompt where I typed it 04:27:37 is the top point the very last point in the sequence? 04:28:05 yes. The last point is the highest. The polyline cuts through the prompt line where I typed the sexp 04:28:19 but the bounding box is fine when drawing points 04:28:21 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-66-41-11-10.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:28:36 I can pastebin it, if you want to see for yourself? 04:29:18 I'm trying it myself now. 04:30:29 *hefner* forgot how fun it was playing with this stuff 04:31:07 Sikander pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81912 04:31:07 yeah, that's a bug. 04:31:40 d'oh! There go my dreams of writing some nice plotting package! 04:32:22 this is a really easy one. 04:32:41 *Sikander* listens carefully... 04:34:35 *Sikander* checks his internet connection. 04:34:42 hmm... 04:35:45 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:37:26 yeah, I'll need to stare at this code for a bit. 04:37:57 But I can define the bounding box myself (if I calculate it), right? 04:38:09 (even though it shouldn't be needed imho) 04:38:20 clim bounding box 04:38:20 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for bounding box. 04:38:26 clim bounding-box 04:38:26 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for bounding-box. 04:38:29 d'oh 04:38:44 okay, now I'm just getting masochistic: 04:38:46 (format stream "(~s ~s ~s)~%" 'asdf:oos `','asdf:load-op module) 04:38:57 `',' 04:39:21 Sikander: there's a trick you can do, draw a rectangle (ideally in +transparent-ink+) to pad things out 04:39:54 ah, right, good one. Thanks 04:40:42 (forcing a smaller rather than larger bounding rectangle is much, much harder) 04:43:17 hefner: is a smaller bounding box not possible if you define a clipping region first? 04:47:17 I'm pretty sure that's just a drawing thing (mostly for clipping to repaint rectangles), and won't be taken into account in recorded output. 04:48:46 dang, so you can't just define a clipping region with some transform as the graph box, and just plot all points in there (even if they fall outside of the clipping region)? 04:49:07 I mean, the bounding box will become the size of the entire figure, including points outside the clipping region? 04:49:37 pretty sure that won't work 04:50:33 I mean, you could make it work by defining a new type of output record which controlled its bounding rectangle directly and established the clipping region when it drew, but that's a couple feet deeper into the pool. 04:50:36 crap, this suddenly becomes way more difficult 04:50:49 exactly 04:51:22 I'll have to think about this... 04:51:40 shouldn't be too hard to clip the points yourself. you might even get clim's geometry functions to do most of the work for you. 04:51:42 Dammit, and I was already writing presentations for my data 04:52:05 -!- justin` [n=justin@ip24-250-39-58.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:52:06 yeah, this requires more knowledge of clim. I see I have more reading to do. Thanks 04:52:40 clim region-intersection 04:52:41 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/3-1.html#_66 04:52:41 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:53:23 clim make-rectangle 04:53:24 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/3-2.html#_115 04:53:30 clim make-line 04:53:31 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/3-2.html#_104 04:53:46 dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-198-84.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:50 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:04:23 that's neat. the clx backend apparently doesn't do the :none joint shape (whatever that means) 05:15:59 Sikander: the polyline bug is fixed in mcclim cvs. 05:20:58 hefner: I must have the wrong cvs... 05:21:52 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:22:05 oh, removed the wrong fasls... Second try 05:22:49 well, it's compiling, but cvs up didn't report any changes... 05:23:41 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-6-64.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 05:25:01 ok, now it reports some patching to recording.lisp 05:25:52 hefner: Nice, thanks! 05:32:20 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@office.osgdc.org] has joined #lisp 05:33:18 -!- fawxtin [n=user@201.67.237.113] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:45:16 Ream [n=Ream@h29n9-n-a31.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 05:45:47 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-66-88.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:50:43 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:57:34 mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 05:57:49 hello 05:58:16 ejs [n=eugen@241-212-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:23 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:02:48 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:13:59 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:18:50 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 06:18:52 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@office.osgdc.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:20:22 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:23:55 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has joined #lisp 06:24:21 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@office.osgdc.org] has joined #lisp 06:24:57 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 06:32:27 -!- dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-198-84.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:37:20 dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-198-84.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:59 -!- ejs [n=eugen@241-212-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:39:36 [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.177] has joined #lisp 06:43:10 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 06:45:33 splittist [n=dmurray@125-31.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:45:53 morning. Let's see if I can stay connected for more than a few minutes today. 06:46:33 Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 06:47:02 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:53:34 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-30-209.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:54:38 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.230.219] has joined #lisp 06:55:15 prabuinet [n=prabu@221.134.21.34] has joined #lisp 06:55:56 is is possible to generate this with parenscript: new System.Drawing.Size(10, 20); 06:56:04 -!- okaygo [n=scott@unaffiliated/okaygo] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:57:27 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:57:47 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.248] has joined #lisp 06:58:15 ASau` [n=user@77.246.230.246] has joined #lisp 07:01:47 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:02:01 good morning 07:03:37 good morning 07:09:31 -!- dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-198-84.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:11:09 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:13:12 prabuinet: (ps ((@ *system *Drawing *Size) 10 20)) 07:14:43 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 07:15:53 (ps (new ((@ *system *Drawing *Size) 10 20))) 07:16:58 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:18:11 knobo: thanks, 07:18:53 knobo: actually i'm generating c# code with it, 07:19:43 knobo: how to extend parenscript to fit for c# 07:20:01 prabuinet: >:( 07:20:06 >>>:(((((( 07:20:09 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:21:59 what? 07:24:53 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 07:25:05 sykopomp: do u mean it is not possible? 07:25:27 vy [n=user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has joined #lisp 07:26:18 -!- A_anekos is now known as anekos 07:27:35 prabuinet: I think he disapproves on principle. Since I have no principles, I thoroughly approve of your experiment. 07:27:39 prabuinet: http://common-lisp.net/project/parenscript/manual/parenscript-reference.pdf 07:29:52 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:31:06 knobo: i already have the reference; there is nothing in docs about extending since it is written only with java-script in mind. I looked into source code but i can't understand. 07:32:48 prabuinet: well you see, that would be the first thing you need, understand it, before envisaging modifying it. 07:35:31 prabuinet: hint: (defmacro if (co th el) `(make-instance 'c#:if :condition ,co :then ,th :else ,el)) (defmethod generate ((self c#:if)) (format nil "if(~A){~%~A~%}else{~%~A~%}~%" (generate (condition self)) (generate (then self)) (generate (else self)))) 07:35:33 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-143-209.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:35:47 prabuinet: but you need to understand it. 07:36:54 pjb: it has an extension protocol?! 07:36:56 !!! 07:37:09 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:38:28 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 07:39:25 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-193-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["leaving"] 07:39:38 sykopomp: more semantics, less syntax, please. 07:39:45 -!- bobf_ is now known as bobf 07:40:03 splittist: buzzwords is how I roll. 07:40:35 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:40:59 this is #sykopomp, right? 07:41:09 hefner: :( 07:42:08 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:42:18 turn that frown upside down 07:42:23 :) 07:43:22 Well, a top/bottom reflection would yiel :( 07:43:30 *yield 07:43:31 this is true 07:43:40 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:43:49 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 07:45:08 And a 180 rotation ): . But a character transposition would be (: . 07:45:16 cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 07:45:26 pjb: i read somewhere if I study lisp I can read/understand other languages like c/java with hands-down. But to read/understand lisp my head turn's upside down... 07:45:47 sykopomp: yes: thru the brains of the programmer 07:45:54 *hefner* isn't sure lisp helps much understanding C 07:45:59 prabuinet: that's the point :-) 07:46:10 *sykopomp* doesn't understand why people can't understand lisp. 07:46:28 *hefner* doesn't understand why lisp can't understand people 07:46:59 hefner: it might help the overall understanding of programming, though. Just by tree-shaking of memory and introducing new data :D 07:47:14 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 07:47:23 p_l: that's pretty much what I got out of it. 07:47:58 it's very easy to write own lisp code, but harder to read others lisp code. 07:48:15 isn't that true about any language?... 07:48:23 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit [Client Quit] 07:48:32 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 07:48:38 yes , but for lisp it too hard 07:49:02 I question this. 07:49:28 prabuinet, can you read any other language? I am fine reading other people's lisp code 07:49:32 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 07:49:41 and he's ilitirit. 07:49:48 the only difficulty in reading lisp code is figuring out complex custom macros 07:50:03 the kind that should rarely exist. 07:50:11 huh? 07:50:24 complex macros is what lets you scale up complexity while reducing source code 07:50:24 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:50:25 *hefner* thinks reading code is general hard, if it's doing anything interesting 07:50:25 I feel the oposite: for very complex code, I seem to always find a way to write it in a readable way in lisp 07:50:59 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 07:51:02 Phoodus: In general, I would disagree. Complex macros are what allow you to turn something straightforward into a mess of macro spaghetti and undebuggable code. 07:51:56 the problem is when you don't have "something straightforward" 07:52:04 then, you need macros to have sane input 07:52:25 people take the 'hey, it writes code' thing way too far. 07:52:37 most people never use it for its proper potential 07:52:39 there are few things that aren't easy enough to write with just higher-order functions. 07:53:01 yeah, if you don't mind orders of magnitude slower code 07:53:01 *ilitirit* doesn't think macros are hard to read -- the problem is when the author was himself confused, the code is confused 07:53:06 a little syntax sugar is okay a lot of the time (defclass and company, for example) 07:53:14 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit [Client Quit] 07:53:24 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 07:53:26 sykopomp: i'm using lisp for past 2 years, thats why its harder to read i think. I will feel comfortable reading in another 8 years. 07:53:27 but you know everything's going downhill when you have macros that write macros (seen it) 07:53:35 why? 07:53:46 because it's a macro that's writing macros. 07:53:48 If you've got a serious project of massive scope, it's incredibly useful 07:53:59 basically you're saying that people should only write fibonnacci code 07:54:05 hehe, no 07:54:09 (however it's spelled) 07:54:32 I'm saying people should use extreme caution when deciding to write a macro. 07:54:43 usually, my rule of thumb is "Can I do this without a macro?" 07:54:48 I write 2 very complex functions that do most of the same stuff 07:54:52 and if I can't, I'll write it. 07:54:57 so I write a macro, and write the other 10 functions using it 07:55:14 sure, I could copy/paste, or use runtime lambda dispatch (which is even larger source to write), but that's stupid 07:55:30 macros abstract the complexity, and let me work with pure input-domain 07:55:30 the anti-macro argument is just FUD from people who don't actually use macros 07:55:39 *sykopomp* uses macros. 07:55:40 sykopomp, give an example where macros make it worse 07:55:45 okay 07:55:51 *sykopomp* goes off to find that metamacro again. 07:56:18 and there's a distinct difference between "macros made it worse" and "somebody didn't know how to use macros effectively" 07:56:46 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:56:46 prabuinet: if you want a hard-to-read language, which is still popular... Perl? :D 07:57:08 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 07:57:12 all hail Perl, the master of write-only code 07:57:17 sykopomp pasted "metamacro goodness. Yum." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81916 07:57:25 p_l, if you really learn perl then it is not hard to read, it's just a very big language 07:57:54 sykopomp: I've done stuff like that 07:57:59 *Phoodus* instantly recognized the pattern 07:58:08 *sykopomp* finds that very unfortunate. 07:58:23 so how would you have accomplished the same? 07:58:36 given that you think "macros made it worse" 07:58:39 Phoodus: I heard that someone managed to proove that parsing Perl without executing was equivalent to solving halting problem... fortunately good perl programmers write such code only for fun 07:58:43 solve the same input problem without macros 07:59:04 oy vey, let me see here 07:59:51 though I would have also made a macro-available function for doing the symbol concatenation 08:00:10 I mean, personally, my solution to this specific problem was to write a library I've been working on. 08:00:19 as opposed to a single macro 08:00:31 I didn't bother trying to think up of a solution using classes that didn't involve writing that thing. 08:00:32 and I bet the macro is far easier to use, too 08:01:12 Phoodus: I tend to prefer having the macro as a very thing layer on top of a more powerful function :\ 08:01:19 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:01:25 sykopomp: that's because you don't do metaprogramming then 08:01:33 or DSLs 08:01:35 lolwut 08:01:47 hence, fibonacci :) 08:01:58 minion: sheeple 08:01:59 sheeple: Sheeple is a Dynamic, CLOS-like, Delegative Prototype-based Object-Oriented Programming Framework (or "POOP Framework") that strives to optimize application flexibility, minimize cost while increasing value, maximize programmer resources, and empower application implementers to better assist them in leveraging modern paradigms in order to proactively achieve next-generation synergy in tomorrow's web 3.0 world. http://www.cliki.net/sheeple 08:02:09 *sykopomp* does metaprogramming. Uses macros. 08:02:22 sykopomp annotated #81916 "macro vs function" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81916#1 08:02:37 those two are one case where the macro was a horrible idea 08:02:46 fork used to have pretty much the entire body of make-event in it. 08:02:49 seemed like a good idea. 08:02:54 except it was sort of unnecessary. 08:03:17 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@125-31.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["too much of a good thing"] 08:03:19 if you don't need compile-time decision making, then no 08:04:21 *sykopomp* remembers reading in some book that 'macros as optimization' are old-school and no longer necessary. 08:04:41 -!- xinming__ is now known as xinming 08:04:42 which isn't my poitn 08:04:50 but a nice sentiment nonetheless 08:05:06 well, you mentioned runtime dispatch of a lambda, I thought that's what you meant. 08:05:13 that's part of it 08:05:30 either way. I don't hate macros. I just think they're overused, and that you can abstract most, if not all, of the macro into a regular function, most of the time. 08:05:36 and of course, in the inner loop of a scripting engine, calling something dedicated to processing something as opposed to dynamic configuration does matter 08:05:47 and that if you can, you should, since functions are much nicer to play around with than compile-time code expansions :) 08:05:58 different people tackle different problem sets than you 08:06:07 it's true 08:06:10 and the "most of the time" differs wildly in different contexts 08:06:15 that's also true. 08:06:51 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@office.osgdc.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:12:19 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:16:27 -!- anekos is now known as A_nekos 08:20:54 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 08:25:14 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:26:32 http://www.amazon.com/Design-Concepts-Programming-Languages-Franklyn/dp/0262201755/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245140779&sr=8-1 08:26:41 I saw this book at the bookstore today, looked pretty good. Any thoughts? 08:26:52 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 08:26:54 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:28:07 hehe, "All code within the book is written in s-exps syntax" 08:30:45 -!- A_nekos is now known as A_anekos 08:33:43 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:35:50 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@office.osgdc.org] has joined #lisp 08:36:48 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:40:43 plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 08:41:54 tic [n=tic@c83-249-193-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:43:32 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:46:44 jtxx000 [n=jtxx000@xfpan.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:51:26 sykopomp, i'm sorry I can't see that your examples of bad macros are bad :) 08:51:50 ilitirit: that's fine, to each his own, I guess. 08:52:01 I find it pretty awful to have several classes (and macros) magically defined. 08:55:04 i've used macrolet more than defmacro 08:55:30 i wonder if most of the talk about macros is about defmacros? 08:56:14 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:48 jtxx000` [n=user@xfpan.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:57:30 so sykopomp where do you countenance the use of macros? 08:57:36 -!- jtxx000 [n=jtxx000@xfpan.gotadsl.co.uk] has left #lisp 08:57:57 ilitirit: small syntactic tweaks. 08:58:19 isn't your example of fork/make-event a small syntactic tweak? 08:58:47 yes 08:59:00 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6CBE9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:08 the fork/make-event example is my own code. The version I didn't like was the one where most of the body of make-event was actually inside fork 08:59:30 (also my own code, if that wasn't clear) 08:59:34 ah okay 09:00:36 putting most of a macro inside a function is generally a good idea because it makes it easier to debug 09:00:44 yes 09:01:05 it also means I can apply make-event if I don't want to use fork for some reason. 09:01:13 I can't apply fork :) 09:01:50 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:01:53 yeah, not being able to funcall or apply macros is rather annoying, especially as for some common cases it would make sense 09:02:06 it's particularly annoying because it's often a surprise 09:02:08 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-213-8.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:15 "oh, this is perfect, let me apply this here, curry this over there..." 09:02:18 "ah, balls, it's a macro" 09:02:19 you have to create (lambda(a b c) (macro a b c)) -- which is pretty stupid 09:03:23 ilitirit: you could do it if all your macros expanded to lambdas 09:03:29 how would you do that for defclass? 09:03:53 yeah it doesn't work except on macros that should really be functions but can't be because of slightly annoying reasons 09:04:22 like? 09:04:24 for example, on Allegro, user functions cannot be inlined(!) so you have to make macros/compiler-macros for performance(arrrgh) 09:04:46 ew 09:04:50 compiler-macros is a different beast 09:05:00 they work in the case you mentioned above 09:05:12 compiler-macros have their own problems -- on sbcl, the output of a compiler macro does not undergo compiler macro expansion 09:05:20 so you have to use real macros 09:05:25 or else do some code walking 09:05:39 jao` [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:08:05 -!- jao` [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:08:07 loxs [n=loxs@77-85-171-222.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 09:13:45 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-241-16-17.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:16:56 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 09:17:11 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:54 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:19:38 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:20:02 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-138-193-165.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:20:29 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["restart"] 09:23:29 -!- loxs [n=loxs@77-85-171-222.btc-net.bg] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:23:43 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-14043.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 09:25:02 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:26:02 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:28:56 -!- jao [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:30:12 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 09:31:03 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:31:57 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit ["leaving"] 09:33:39 Blkt [n=Blkt@net-93-146-152-69.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 09:34:08 roidrage [n=roidrage@ip-80-226-15-253.vodafone-net.de] has joined #lisp 09:35:30 -!- lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-13-47.dynamic.amis.net] has left #lisp 09:37:37 loxs [n=loxs@77-85-171-222.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 09:37:39 lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-13-47.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 09:37:47 -!- loxs [n=loxs@77-85-171-222.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:39:48 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 09:42:42 -!- saikat__ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [] 09:45:14 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:48:38 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:51:04 elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #lisp 09:51:23 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:40 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 10:01:36 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 10:03:06 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1B271.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["quit"] 10:03:14 segv [n=mb@p4FC1B271.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:42 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:06:02 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1B271.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:06:28 segv [n=mb@p4FC1B271.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:51 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 10:15:48 why calling another macro inside one macro causes problem? 10:18:17 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-197-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:18:51 prabuinet: macros are not called. they are expanded. 10:18:58 (defmacro pr (a) `(ps ,(another 10 20 ,a))) 10:19:09 jdz: whatever it is, no prob 10:19:47 you have 2 commas, but only one backquote 10:20:57 how can i ensure another get expanded before ps is expanded. 10:21:27 try not using backquote until you understand what you are doing 10:21:46 i'm not even sure what your example is supposed to mean 10:22:22 (defmacro pr (a) (list 'ps (another 10 20 ?))) 10:25:04 prabuinet: it should not pose problem. But you must ensure another is active at macro expansion time. 10:25:19 prabuinet: the simple way is to load the file containing another before loading the file containing pr. 10:25:44 prabuinet: if they're in the same file, then you may wrap the definition of antoher in (eval-when (:compile-topleve :load-toplevel :execute) ...) 10:26:03 -!- matimago- is now known as matimago 10:26:13 *matimago* bbl 10:26:53 ok 10:27:37 -!- antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has left #lisp 10:27:41 antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:55 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:28:40 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-141-185.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:34:30 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 10:34:38 adityo [n=adityo@122.169.7.77] has joined #lisp 10:37:43 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 10:41:07 -!- Blkt [n=Blkt@net-93-146-152-69.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:41:47 Blkt [n=Blkt@net-93-146-137-163.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 10:42:39 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:43:05 ZabaQ [n=johnc@88.211.46.93] has joined #lisp 10:49:10 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has joined #lisp 10:52:27 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@office.osgdc.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:52:56 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:53:31 -!- jtxx000` [n=user@xfpan.gotadsl.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 10:56:49 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 10:58:19 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:58:29 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:04:32 ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 11:05:55 <[df]> is it safe to do destructive stuff to the list from a &rest arg? 11:07:02 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-14043.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:07:21 no as far as i remember 11:07:35 if you did not create a list yourself, it's not safe to act destructively upon it 11:09:04 clhs 3.4.1.3 11:09:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dac.htm 11:09:25 "The value of a rest parameter is permitted, but not required, to share structure with the last argument to apply." 11:09:30 so you really can't rely on anything (: 11:09:38 BW^-4376 [i=Miranda@151.80.76.49] has joined #lisp 11:09:50 guys, what is the strategy described in §9 in http://www.paulgraham.com/carl.html really? 11:09:52 i.e. what's the point? 11:10:04 <[df]> thanks guys 11:10:35 (cdr clause) brings gifts every lispmasday 11:10:41 *Phoodus* has been coding for too long straight 11:10:47 BW^-4376: I think they benchmarked things, and decided that this was faster 11:11:12 or maybe it's just dogma (: 11:11:14 antifuchs: but what is the point of the strategy? 11:11:20 so they had 250MB of cons cells.. and during a query they did what? 11:11:22 to spend less time in GC 11:11:43 ..and after the query they reset what? 11:11:44 "For example, rather than using cons, we use "cons!", which grabs cells from an array of 10,000,000 cells we've preallocated and which gets reset every query." - ah, hotmail syndrome :) 11:12:00 aha 11:12:01 oh 11:12:22 now i get it 11:12:24 (When MS ported Hotmail to ISAPI, they apparently had a memory allocation scheme where the whole heap was wiped after each request, to allow for leaks) 11:12:30 so during a query they create CONS cells for their intermediary stuff 11:12:54 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:13:27 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:15 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:14:49 note though that this was written in 2001, and things may have changed substantially in the meantime 11:14:57 (but from what I gather, this particular piece of dogma has not (-:) 11:16:36 hi antifuchs 11:16:43 hey (: 11:17:19 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:26 good morning everyone 11:19:30 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:21:31 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:21:57 vithorn [i=keep@95.160.156.230] has joined #lisp 11:22:51 BW^-4376: no, they don't create CONS cells during the query, that's the point! 11:23:09 BW^-4376: they pre-allocate the CONS cells: (defparameter *free-cells* (make-list 10000000)) 11:23:33 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:23:44 BW^-4376: then use these cells: (defun cons! (a d) (let ((cell (pop *free-cells*))) (assert cell) (setf (car cell) a (cdr cell) d) cell)) 11:24:38 matimago: right 11:24:45 BW^-4376: Err: (defparameter *cells* (make-list 10000000)) (loop for q = (get-new-query) do (setf *free-cells* *cells*) (process q)) 11:25:23 (set-car!) / (set-cdr!) right? 11:25:41 In CL it's (setf (car c) a) (setf (cdr c) d) 11:25:56 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:26:11 well, we need to keep the list of cells in a different sequence since the user may modify the cdr of the cells... 11:26:14 But you get the idea. 11:27:29 <[df]> isn't that why cl implementations tend to pre-allocate loads of memory anyway? (to do something similar internally) 11:27:37 joachifm [n=joachim@ti132110a340-3137.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 11:27:45 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:28:09 [df]: no, and they don't. What may occur is that CL implementations tell the kernel that they're using the whole virtual addressing space. This doesn't allocate memory, but it may look like it does. 11:29:40 it doesn't even look like it does. "resident" is the size that the program has allocated; "virtual" is just the size of the address space, which some misguided process monitors make more prominent than the actually useful number 11:30:12 <[df]> I thought resident was what was actually in ram rather than swapped out 11:30:33 <[df]> matimago: ccl certainly does that, because it appears to use several GB of virtual memory, but I don't think SBCL does 11:31:19 [df]: yep, that's usually the case 11:31:47 but just because ccl says it's using 8gb of virtual memory and 100mb or resident, or whatever, doesn't mean that there's another 7.9gb in swap 11:32:38 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:32:45 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:33:02 <[df]> yep, but sbcl on this machine has virt of 523m, which I assume means it actually has preallocated that amount 11:34:14 is it possible that you have a 32-bit sbcl and a 64-bit ccl? 11:34:15 [df]: no, it hasn't. it just has requested what amounts to 512MB of address space. 11:34:27 antifuchs speaks truth 11:34:53 bobf_ [n=bob@host86-154-147-173.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:35:00 that is 512*1024*1024 bytes that it could do pointer calculations on. that memory is not all occupied by actual data 11:35:04 benny99 [n=benny@p5486E859.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:19 or let's say 512*1024*1024 valid pointer values (: 11:35:44 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:35:51 <[df]> I understand that it's not actual data, what I'm not clear on is why it is an advantage to pre-allocate a load of cons cells 11:36:14 you clearly do not understand: it is not preallocating a load of cons cells, it is reserving some address space 11:36:20 allocating stuff once means you pass through the allocator (and potentially, a GC) only once 11:36:51 that strategy and the pre-reserving of address space are not similar at all 11:36:59 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:37:09 benny99_ [n=benny@p5486E859.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:37:14 at least not from the intent 11:37:31 the pre-allocation one is about performance, and the pre-reserving one is about having predictable pointer positions 11:38:21 dys` [n=andreas@p5B3141B7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:59 mrSpec_ [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 11:39:00 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:39:04 <[df]> ok 11:39:36 pjb pasted "cons cell pool" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81925 11:40:13 BW^-4376: here is an example of a working cons cell pool implementation ^ 11:40:59 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 11:42:53 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:44:17 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B317B9F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:45:11 -!- dys` is now known as dys 11:46:41 -!- bobf 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13:10:56 LiamH: ping 13:11:20 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-164.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 13:11:25 fe[nl]ix: hi 13:12:03 LiamH: you need to add an (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :cffi-grovel)) at the top of gsll.asd 13:12:36 fe[nl]ix: Really? 13:13:19 otherwise, on a clean load you get that the symbol cffi-grovel:grovel-file can't be read because the package cffi-grovel doesn't exist yet 13:13:41 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:13:57 you probably never noticed this because you always have cffi-grovel in your working image 13:14:47 I see, I do have it there. Someone recently asked me to add it to :depends-on, and I did. But I guess that's not early enough. 13:15:31 -!- A_anekos is now known as A_nekos 13:16:01 -!- A_nekos is now known as anekos 13:17:15 unfortunately, ASDF doesn't have the distinct notions of compile-time deps and run-time deps 13:18:19 it does have the distinct notions of compile-time and load-time deps, which may be enough 13:18:19 or if :grovel-file were in they keyword package instead of cffi-grovel 13:19:38 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 13:21:21 hi fe[nl]ix 13:21:42 hi 13:23:06 Xof: so how would you express the compile-time dependency on cffi-grovel? 13:24:46 I'm not sure. It may be that asdf's separation of the two times is not good enough 13:25:05 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 13:25:31 the problem is that basically always (load-op foo) depends-on (compile-op foo) 13:25:41 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 13:26:20 so you can add more dependencies at load time, but removing some is harder 13:26:21 we would also need a generate-op with would be null for most source files 13:26:54 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:28:37 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:45 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-1-15.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:28:54 I just noticed I have the eval-when in http://repo.or.cz/w/fsbv.git?a=blob;f=fsbv.asd which I've had from the beginning. I must have copied it from IOlib. 13:29:27 :) 13:30:12 ... but in GSLL I added it just recently without copying because now I'm an "expert" in cffi-grovel. Ha. 13:30:53 (added cffi-grovel that is) 13:32:35 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:33:04 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-143-209.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:33:09 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 13:34:25 fe[nl]ix: I use a generate-op for a bunch of my stuff. it's in ch-asdf and used by smarkup, gcc-xml-ffi, etc... 13:35:45 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:38:57 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:42 -!- stepnem [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:42:52 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-143-209.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 13:43:23 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-143-209.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 13:43:56 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:45:02 Guest10839 [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:43 brothers [n=brothers@rrcs-24-103-64-162.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:46:39 -!- Guest10839 [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:48:14 nikodemus: around? 13:50:21 yep 13:51:27 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:15 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:59:24 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 14:00:12 danlei [n=user@pD9E2E76B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:26 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-138-193-165.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:02:45 rtoym: Somewhat. 14:03:13 -!- maxote [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:03:25 rui_ [n=rui@bl8-249-69.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:07:13 -!- jlf [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-67.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:07:17 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:17 -!- rui_ [n=rui@bl8-249-69.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 14:08:50 -!- Blkt [n=Blkt@net-93-146-137-163.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:09:22 -!- drhodes [n=none@209-20-72-61.slicehost.net] has left #lisp 14:09:37 -!- aunwork [n=aunwork@mail.ionicsoft.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:11:05 slackjaw [n=jolyonw@203-214-3-25.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 14:11:59 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:29 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:12:43 _Rui_ [n=rui@bl8-249-69.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:15:20 elias` [n=c@host86-159-170-69.range86-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:15:55 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-100-252.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 14:16:53 salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has joined #lisp 14:16:53 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181146241.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:17:00 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181146241.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:19:07 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:17 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F480.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:55 slyrus__: ping? 14:20:17 -!- prabuinet [n=prabu@221.134.21.34] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:20:25 nikodemus: sorry, was off feeding the kids and have to go to work. I'll catch up with you later. thanks for the latest fix! 14:20:36 Blkt [n=Blkt@net-93-146-137-163.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 14:21:47 'morning 14:21:54 no problem 14:21:55 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:25:22 jlf [n=user@adsl-76-200-131-171.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:57 rolly1975 [n=rory@193.108.78.132] has joined #lisp 14:28:42 -!- _Rui_ [n=rui@bl8-249-69.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:29:34 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.169.7.77] has quit ["leaving"] 14:30:35 -!- vithorn [i=keep@95.160.156.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:30:43 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has quit ["leaving"] 14:31:04 nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:09 G'morning all. 14:32:23 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:32:30 nyef: good day 14:32:39 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:39:16 oh, this is nice. -72kb of type checking from sbcl.core :) 14:39:50 nikodemus: Cool. How? 14:40:12 Easy, nyef: (declare (safety 0))! 14:40:24 heh 14:40:25 kmcorbett [n=Keith@76.119.215.57] has joined #lisp 14:40:28 ...but I imagine nikodemus has a more satisfying answer. 14:40:59 -!- meingbg [n=user@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has left #lisp 14:41:01 p0a [n=emacs@athedsl-383911.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:41:08 Hello I'm trying to use LTK. http://www.peter-herth.de/ltk/ltkdoc/ 14:41:54 I installed it with asdf-install and loaded it. (ltk:ltktest) gives me the following error: "Couldn't write to descriptor 6: Broken pipe" 14:41:59 (the error is more verbose) 14:42:10 nikodemus pasted "here's the trick" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81933 14:43:23 that is, almost-immediately-used-p is not quite as strict as the old check 14:44:09 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-132-8-72.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:44:35 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 14:45:02 nikodemus: is it possible that clean-ups are hoisted out of loops when lambdas are let-converted? 14:45:06 meingbg [n=user@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:55 milanj [n=milan@91.150.101.6] has joined #lisp 14:46:12 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:35 in reference to that paste, or in general? 14:46:38 in general. 14:47:00 i'm not sure 14:47:09 i suspect not, but... 14:47:16 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-100-252.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:47:27 aunwork [n=aunwork@mail.ionicsoft.com] has joined #lisp 14:47:44 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:50 or that DX don't have associated clean ups then. 14:48:17 -!- rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:48:18 TDT [n=TDT@dhcp80ff869b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 14:49:10 right, dx allocations don't have clean ups. Guess we could insert code to save and restore SP at key places. 14:49:59 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:58 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 14:51:06 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:51:40 -!- kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:52:31 dx allocation do have cleanups 14:52:41 but they don't do anything. 14:54:17 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:54:18 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-213-8.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:54:43 they inform stack-analysis, which in turn takes care of dealing with the sp 14:54:55 see map-block-nlxs in stack.lisp 14:55:51 -!- jleija is now known as murthos 14:56:53 what are you working on? 14:57:45 -!- ZabaQ [n=johnc@88.211.46.93] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:58:16 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-74.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:58:56 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 14:58:56 kiuma [n=kiuma@proxy.emea.fedex.com] has joined #lisp 14:59:09 right, they're handled right. I was making sure the (loop (ignore-errors)) bug wasn't more fundamental. 14:59:15 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:00:08 oh, right 15:01:08 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-100-252.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:01:15 -!- mindCrime [n=chatzill@cpe-076-182-103-085.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [No route to host] 15:01:33 it is, and it isn't. stack analysis doesn't know about value cells, and i don't see how to properly add cleanups for them without informing stack analysis about them 15:01:51 sepult [n=buggarag@87.78.31.189] has joined #lisp 15:03:25 last time i tried that i failed miserably, hence the possible idea of transforming value cells into explicit objects, so stack analysis could deal with them like normal lvars 15:04:30 NO REPLIES!!! 15:04:39 that is, transform (let ((x 0)) (lambda () (incf x))) into (let ((x (make-value-cell 0))) (lambda () (incf (value-cell-value x)))) or equivalent 15:04:54 -!- p0a [n=emacs@athedsl-383911.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 15:05:13 plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 15:07:14 peterwang [n=user@58.207.161.109] has joined #lisp 15:08:10 ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-141-43.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:08:32 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:10:12 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:11:55 but in the meanwhile i'm thinking removing stack allocated value cells completely (again), giving a compiler note about value cells with dx declarations, and noting the "use a cons" workaround in the manual would probably be a good thing to do 15:12:52 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 15:13:02 willb [n=wibenton@128.105.48.174] has joined #lisp 15:15:15 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:17:07 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 15:18:41 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 15:18:45 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-6-64.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:19:14 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-6-64.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:19:16 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 15:20:31 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:22:02 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:22:21 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 15:22:39 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:22:47 -!- anekos is now known as A_nekos 15:22:57 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-132-8-72.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has left #lisp 15:26:56 -!- slackjaw [n=jolyonw@203-214-3-25.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:27:38 fvw [n=sdfpme@116.18.78.201] has joined #lisp 15:32:40 Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 15:36:47 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:38:00 -!- A_nekos is now known as anekos 15:39:28 -!- KingNato_ is now known as KingNato 15:40:24 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:42:33 CrazyEddy [n=petiolar@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 15:42:35 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-977f9de7e12a839b] has joined #lisp 15:42:46 -!- benny99 [n=benny@p5486E2AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:47:35 -!- jlf [n=user@adsl-76-200-131-171.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:50:35 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:51:39 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit ["Leaving..."] 15:54:24 c|mell [n=john@114.162.239.62] has joined #lisp 15:54:58 fe[nl]ix: Do you have a sense of when CFFI will have the next release? I'm holding back the branch that uses the double-float constants read from cffi-grovel until I can name the version of CFFI on which it depends. 15:55:54 -!- c|mell [n=john@114.162.239.62] has quit [Client Quit] 15:56:09 c|mell [n=cmell@p28062-ipngn601marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:56:13 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:57:24 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@116.18.78.201] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:57:58 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p28062-ipngn601marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 15:58:12 c|mell [n=cmell@p28062-ipngn601marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:02:25 LiamH: send an email to cffi-devel and ask luis to make a new release 16:02:57 OK. 16:03:01 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-30-209.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:04:23 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:53 let's do it! 16:05:17 just a moment 16:05:33 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:05:34 I'm updating the docs 16:05:58 LiamH: you are Liam Healy of GSLL, right? 16:06:10 smithzv: yes 16:06:15 LiamH: unrelated, have you considered have gsll automatically translate any numerical type to the proper C type? I always find myself putting a bunch of (float x 0d0) in my code that uses gsll. 16:06:43 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:07:14 smithvz: It will do that for :initial-contents for make-marray. What context are you doing this? 16:07:18 dysinger [n=tim@166.129.156.143] has joined #lisp 16:07:21 luis: done 16:07:35 LiamH: let me find an example 16:09:05 -!- lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-13-47.dynamic.amis.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:10:29 LiamH: with EVALUATE for splines, the x variable needs to be input as a double float or GSLL complains. In the past I have done things like (defctype gsl-double (:wrapper :double :to-c ensure-double)) and this is taken care of. 16:11:13 jmbr [n=jmbr@143.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:11:56 LiamH: where ensure-double is just (float number 0d0) 16:12:07 smithzv: Oh, OK. I've thought about adding something like that. It's straightforward but tedious because there are many, many functions that expect a numeric type. 16:12:33 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:13:10 LiamH: yes, but there is no performance reason to avoid this right? It seems like a nice bit of lisp integration. 16:13:11 I'll put that on the to-do list, but it's not likely to happen quickly. 16:13:20 LiamH: I understand 16:14:15 There's a small hit. I actually had thought about providing a compile time option: do nothing (the way it is now), coerce (what you suggest), or check-type (like the first option, except your error message is a little bit more direct about what the problem is). 16:16:13 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:22 -!- merimus [n=wroth@63.94.127.49] has quit [] 16:17:08 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit ["Be back later"] 16:17:36 asksol [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 16:19:10 -!- luis changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: CFFI 0.10.5, ABCL 0.15.0, SBCL 1.0.29.1, Hunchentoot & Drakma 1.0.0, usocket 0.4.1, cl-net-snmp 5.19, yason-0.1, trivial-features 0.4, series 2.2.10, CMUCL 19f. 16:19:30 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:20:36 Woo-hoo. Thanks luis. 16:20:47 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:23:24 lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-7-42.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:31 -!- asksol [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:26:16 -!- luis changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: CFFI 0.10.5, trivial-features 0.5, ABCL 0.15.0, SBCL 1.0.29.1, Hunchentoot & Drakma 1.0.0, usocket 0.4.1, cl-net-snmp 5.19, yason-0.1, series 2.2.10, CMUCL 19f. 16:26:36 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:57 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:27:01 The next feature release.sh should have is an automatic update of the #lisp topic. :-) 16:27:24 luis: I've tried to test the ABCL patch you posted, but how do I load JNA into ABCL ? 16:28:10 -!- xan_ is now known as xan 16:29:19 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 16:29:27 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:37 fe[nl]ix: you place jna.jar and linux-amd64.jar in the classpath 16:30:54 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:31:02 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:31:23 fe[nl]ix: though what I actually did was to stuff all of them into a single abcl.jar 16:31:36 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@143.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:34:51 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [] 16:35:30 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:36:59 nikodemus: i guess i'm still confused why (directory "/tmp/foo.b*.*") doesn't match /tmp/foo.bar but (directory "/tmp/f*.*") matches /tmp/foo 16:37:17 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has joined #lisp 16:37:23 slyrus_: with 1.0.29.11? 16:37:32 I suppose what I really want is to remove all references to the pathname type from the spec, but that won't happen :) 16:37:40 oh, wait, i misread. 16:37:58 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:38:26 roidrage_ [n=roidrage@p54BEB5C2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:38:58 -!- roidrage [n=roidrage@p54BEB5C2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:39:00 the terminal #\. has special meaning, but only if there are no other dots in the filename? 16:39:06 Looks like "foo.b*.*" is using a wildcard type and a wildcard version, while "f*.*" is using a wildcard name and wildcard type but no version component. 16:39:17 Or maybe that. 16:39:52 foo.b*.* has a pattern matching name and :wild type 16:40:10 and the pattern requires the dot in the name 16:40:23 My head hurts already. 16:41:16 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:41:19 which in turn means that there has to be a type as well: so it matches foo.bar.quux, but not foo.bar 16:41:51 and f*.*? 16:42:17 pattern name and wild type, but the pattern doesn't have a dot in it 16:42:22 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:42:50 ah, the joys of pathnames 16:43:02 f*.* doesn't match foo for the same reason foo.b*.* doesn't match foo.bar, pretty much 16:43:09 ah, but it does! 16:43:17 oh, gah 16:43:28 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@proxy.emea.fedex.com] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 16:43:32 *nikodemus* finds a repl 16:43:51 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:44:35 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:45:03 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:45:12 elias` [n=c@host86-159-170-69.range86-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:45:45 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 16:48:22 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:48:50 slyrus_: just to be clear: is this a regression, or just baffling behaviour? 16:49:21 "just"... 16:49:21 there was a regression which you fixed, I think we're now on to baffling behavior. 16:49:27 bicbw... 16:49:39 Easy enough to find out, right? 16:49:44 patterns and :name/:type/:version parsing have (I believe) always interacted terribly with each other 16:50:23 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:46 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:00 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:51:14 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 16:51:21 yeah. i think i can see a way of fixing some of this, by changing namestring parsing of x.y.z to treat y.z as the type (instead of z as now) -- but i suspect some bits and pieces would still be misbehaving 16:51:54 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:52:17 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 16:53:08 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:55:20 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 16:55:39 while we're discussing annoying use cases, another way to go would be to make (directory "/tmp/f*") match foo.bar, etc 16:55:45 which it currently does not 16:56:19 and, I think, there is currently know why to find f*.* where I want filenames that start with f and have an explicit #\. in them 16:56:19 I think the only sane solution is to jettison :type in the same way that we've already jettisoned :version 16:56:29 Xof: may well be 16:56:30 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:56:43 Xof: I agree 16:56:49 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 16:56:56 that is, make (make-pathname :name "foo" :type "lisp") generate a pathname indistinguishable from (make-pathname :name "foo.lisp") 16:57:10 i'm all for it 16:57:23 though i suspect code will break 16:57:39 since pathname-type nil is going to break a lot of expectations 16:58:57 slyrus_: if you just want something that works reliably, have a look at map-directory 16:58:58 -!- peterwang [n=user@58.207.161.109] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:59:06 Can anyone think of a legacy issue that continues to affect working programmers that's older and/or more annoying than dealing with CRLF vs LF? 16:59:25 EBCDIC vs ASCII ? 16:59:55 gigamonk`: the misspelt "Referrer" header in HTTP? 17:00:02 dunno, that's probably not older 17:00:07 it annoys me more 17:00:07 Xof: more annoying, probably not older. 17:00:11 The existence of COBOL? 17:00:26 pjb: I don't think too many people continue to deal with that one, though. 17:00:30 80-columns? 17:00:31 (sb-impl:map-directory, that is) i'm 90% certain building robust pathname completion on top it is going to be easier than using cl:directory 17:00:48 gigamonk`: there are even web sites written on hosts using EBCDIC... 17:00:51 The continued use of RPG on certain IBM systems? 17:01:06 gigamonk`: airline protocols :( 17:01:25 haha 17:01:25 http://httpd.apache.org/docs/1.3/ebcdic.html 17:01:28 99% of textbooks focusing on risc when the world is ia32? 17:02:08 pjb: but you have to go looking for that pain 17:02:46 gigamonk`: you also have to go looking for MS-Windows. It's been years since I saw one. 17:02:49 I like the 80 columns thing though I'm trying to think of present-day consequences of that other than that my terminal by default starts up 80 columns wide. 17:03:06 I'd post a link to AIRIMP, but the IATA wants to charge for it 17:03:16 pjb: Right. But even if you stay off Windows you're likely to have to think about CRLF from time to time. 17:03:48 logical pathnames? 17:04:02 *Maddas* chuckles 17:04:05 nul-terminated strings? 17:04:23 NULL pointers? Not sure how old those are. 17:04:28 I'd suggest the CRLF / CR issue associated with classic MacOS, but that was arguably introduced later than the CRLF / LF issue. 17:04:29 QWERTY? 17:04:45 "hey, we can save space by not saving the length anywhere, and just looking for a terminating nul" 17:05:09 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:05:10 space-time trade-off. Good choice even! 17:05:14 Yeah, that one is neat... 17:05:25 s/is/was/ 17:05:53 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:05:53 pjb: Embedded systems? 17:05:56 I think nikodemus wins 17:06:04 that made more sense on 8-bit machines 17:06:11 -!- rolly1975 [n=rory@193.108.78.132] has quit ["The computer fell asleep"] 17:06:17 exactly. An annoying legacy issue 17:06:23 wins by the number of security vulnerabilities created, at least 17:07:30 *nyef* is hoping to take advantage of a string buffer overrun in a couple weeks. 17:07:51 i think dlowe wins with 'airline protocols' :D 17:08:04 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.248] has quit ["off"] 17:08:10 yes, but you're biased 17:08:33 just because 99% of all lisp programmers have to deal with airline protocols... :-) 17:08:49 IPv4 vs IPv6 ; IP is quite old so it could qualify... 17:08:51 this is true ... i probably shouldn't be on the voting commitee :) 17:11:46 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:11:50 happycodemonkey [n=raskolni@147.226.103.121] has joined #lisp 17:13:41 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit ["leaving"] 17:13:46 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:55 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:17:30 Did null-terminated strings come from C (or one of it's near precursors such as BCPL) or do they predate that? 17:17:59 null-terminated SIXBIT strings? 17:18:37 Well, in LISP 1.5, strings were 077 padded, but if their length was a multiple of 6, it wasn't terminated. 17:19:12 It was the list of words that was NIL terminated. 17:20:45 -!- happycodemonkey [n=raskolni@147.226.103.121] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:21:50 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:28 -!- CrazyEddy [n=petiolar@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:22:54 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-6-64.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:23:56 CrazyEddy [n=petiolar@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 17:24:53 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-14-177.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:27:23 happycodemonkey [n=raskolni@147.226.103.121] has joined #lisp 17:28:30 asksol [n=ask@062249179105.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 17:31:13 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:32:21 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:32:49 -!- xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:33:18 Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.121.200] has joined #lisp 17:35:07 -!- ASau` [n=user@77.246.230.246] has quit ["off"] 17:36:31 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:36:51 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:37:04 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:24 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@87.78.31.189] has quit ["leaving"] 17:42:53 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 17:43:25 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-77-2.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:43:31 -!- happycodemonkey [n=raskolni@147.226.103.121] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:44:23 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-e6564d440128540b] has joined #lisp 17:45:25 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:45:42 gzip4 [n=xxx@78.108.73.250] has joined #lisp 17:46:22 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:48:34 happycodemonkey [n=raskolni@147.226.163.3] has joined #lisp 17:50:15 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:51:02 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:55:05 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:55:21 -!- happycodemonkey [n=raskolni@147.226.163.3] has quit ["leaving"] 17:55:40 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-31-189.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:56:23 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has joined #lisp 18:03:36 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:05:46 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [] 18:07:26 nikodemus: should map-directory be exported? 18:08:14 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:08 also, it would be nice if there were a result-type a la map instead of just ignoring the returned values of the mapped function 18:11:04 mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:11:10 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-132-8-72.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:11:49 jao [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:07 slyrus_: i plan to export it once the interface has been experimented with a bit more 18:13:22 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:14:23 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:14:45 Jasko [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:49 -!- roidrage_ [n=roidrage@p54BEB5C2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 18:17:43 This probably isn't really lisp but I'll give it a shot, I have opened a server socket from my lisp program which ended abnormally, is there a way for me to grab the socket to close it; as I am now unable to reuse the IP/port combination because it says the socket is in use. 18:18:17 just wait 18:18:28 the os will keep the port open for 30 seconds or so 18:18:40 this is standard tcp protocol 18:19:50 cadabra [n=cadabra@17.224.12.65] has joined #lisp 18:20:10 krumholt, ok I'll wait, thanks 18:20:11 Guthur: there's a tcp option called SO_REUSEADDR, iirc, that you can set to be able to immediately reuse the address 18:20:47 jlf' indeed you are correct, i was just using the default setting, I will try an explicit reuse 18:20:51 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181146241.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:20:55 this applies if netstat shows it in TIME_WAIT state 18:21:12 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181146241.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:21:18 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-14-180.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:23:02 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:23:02 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:25:34 it seems to jammed in a listening state 18:26:30 could it be possible the lisp environment is holding on to it? 18:26:45 i'm using emacs/slime and clisp 18:26:50 Guthur, yes try restarting the lisp env and wait for a few seconds 18:29:14 yep that done the trick, thanks krumholt_ and jlf' 18:32:17 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:32:28 eni4ever [n=admin@79.114.44.73] has joined #lisp 18:32:57 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:33:59 elias` [n=c@host86-159-170-69.range86-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:36:59 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:21 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-77-2.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:37:33 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181146241.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:38:52 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:39:03 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-977f9de7e12a839b] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:40:30 maxote [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 18:41:09 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-193-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["leaving"] 18:41:28 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A3329.versanet.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:42:12 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 18:43:30 tic [n=tic@c83-249-193-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:43:46 saikat_ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 18:43:57 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:24 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 18:47:26 benny [n=benny@i577A32C7.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:48:18 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:49:53 -!- eni4ever [n=admin@79.114.44.73] has quit [Client Quit] 18:53:33 qbg [n=quickbas@65-73-86-56.dsl1.mnd.mn.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:23 KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-14-153.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:15 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:06:34 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:09:39 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-1-241.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:02 -!- dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dd3.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:10:04 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:11:08 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 19:14:11 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:14:50 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-193-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["leaving"] 19:14:54 tic [n=tic@c83-249-193-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:15:39 There. Sorry for the hopping. Now WTF-8 works as it should. 19:15:52 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:16:28 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-14-153.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:16:42 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:16:45 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@ti132110a340-3137.bb.online.no] has quit [Client Quit] 19:17:22 elias` [n=c@host81-155-251-189.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:20:12 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:01 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:59 -!- bobf_ is now known as bobf 19:24:04 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-066-230.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:25 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Operation timed out] 19:27:18 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:28:39 -!- Jasko 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joined #lisp 20:57:35 -!- murthos [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:00:55 -!- benny99 [n=benny@p5486DA62.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [No route to host] 21:02:21 -!- _bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit ["leaving"] 21:03:54 -!- benny99_ [n=benny@p5486DA62.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:04:01 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:05:40 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:58 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:51 -!- deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has quit [] 21:10:42 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 21:11:45 _bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 21:12:23 -!- _bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Client Quit] 21:14:10 -!- xuanwu [n=xuanwu@hri.cogs.indiana.edu] has left #lisp 21:14:15 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:14:56 bobf_ [n=bob@host81-151-96-146.range81-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:17:40 _bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 21:17:40 -!- _bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Client Quit] 21:17:46 I am interested in using parallel processing for one of my projects. Is CL-MUPROC a recommended package for this sort of tasks? 21:18:04 _bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 21:18:56 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.247.131] has joined #lisp 21:19:26 hmmm.. it seems I should be able to extract the bare text from a pdf with the cl-pdf library, but it has me stumped... anyone ever done this before? 21:19:44 (assuming it's a pdf with text, which mine are, of course) 21:19:57 isn't cl-pdf for generating pdf? 21:20:02 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:21:17 -!- wol [n=wol@c-24-6-239-111.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:21:34 yeah, it is.. but the nuts and bolts of reading and understanding a pdf file are in there... seems I only need to extend it to also output the plain text... 21:21:38 wol [n=wol@c-24-6-239-111.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:44 but maybe I'm reading too much into it, though... 21:21:57 -!- karvus [n=thomas@ti511110a080-0924.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:21:57 if someone had done it already it would save me from thinking about it... ;) 21:22:48 (it actually has 'pdf-parser.lisp', but then that is only used to add stuff to an existing pdf, not outputting anything... 21:22:55 should it be written in CL? 21:23:20 I'd like it, but not mandatory... 21:23:21 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 21:23:29 was thinking about just system calling to pdftotext 21:25:36 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:25:52 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 21:26:50 mjf [n=mjf@r6y232.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 21:27:41 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:27:57 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:28:02 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 21:29:44 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:30:50 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.0.33.46] has joined #lisp 21:31:41 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r6y232.net.upc.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 21:32:10 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.140.249] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:33:37 thijso: quick solution if you know CFFI and C is to use an existing C lib. quick solution if you don't (and possibly just as quick if you do) is to write a simple PDF parser... just grabbing the text from a pdf can't be all that hard. 21:33:54 Adamant [n=Adamant@24-231-157-130.static.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:34:14 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:37:05 drewc: Famous last words. 21:37:35 I'd go with system() or run-program. There was a fairly recent example of calling system() from sbcl on planet-lisp. 21:37:36 nyef: heh, i'm into the pdf spec already 21:37:38 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:37:48 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:39:48 drewc: yeah... seems a bit of an oversight in the cl-pdf package that it can't just output the text of a pdf... seeing as it does everything _except_ that last step it seems... 21:39:49 ok, pdf is quite the thing. 21:39:59 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:40:11 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:18 thijso: creating PDF and parsing PDF are two different things. 21:40:48 drewc: yeah, I understand, but the cl-pdf package already does the parsing, if I understand the pdf-parser.lisp file correctly 21:40:52 i can point you to the 'standard filters' in the pdf spec, for example. 21:41:33 nah.. I'm going with a system call for now I think. esp. since this is not the main focus of what I'm working on now 21:41:58 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:42:04 -!- Ream [n=Ream@h29n9-n-a31.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:42:27 parsing of an arbitrary PDF? i highly doubt it's that involved. 21:42:33 elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #lisp 21:44:31 I don't deny that, but now this part of the problem is just a hurdle between me and what I *actually* want to do, so I'm gonna cheat and not do it myself... ;) 21:44:57 i agree, cheat! 21:45:26 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:47:20 wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 21:48:32 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has quit [Client Quit] 21:48:49 wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 21:50:29 -!- TDT [n=TDT@dhcp80ff869b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:53:02 The problem with parsing PDF files is their internal flow and structure of text may not always reflect what we actually see. 21:53:11 -!- cracki_ is now known as cracki 21:53:29 The text might internally be a total unrelated mess, while still being readable on screen. 21:54:35 rread [n=rread@192.18.41.196] has joined #lisp 21:54:50 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:55:46 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.0.33.46] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:56:31 -!- nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving the office."] 21:56:36 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.0.33.46] has joined #lisp 21:56:52 mkfort [i=4lYceUGk@68-189-164-209.dhcp.spbg.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:58:34 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-119-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 21:59:22 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6C911.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 22:01:48 antoszka: that and the fact that the 'text' can be encoded in one of 12 formats, including the 1 bit monochrome encoding used for fax machines :) 22:01:57 *drewc* is still reading the spec 22:02:04 Yep :) 22:03:09 ivank [i=ivan@93-97-51-193.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:03:20 im playing with the blog tutorial for weblocks 22:03:52 i've changed the make-admin-page method called from init-user-sesssion, but it doesn't seem to have any affect on the page that gets loaded 22:04:31 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-201-17-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:05:24 ivank: i don't use weblocks, but it sounds like init-user-session might be called once per session, and you might be in that same session still. killing cookies might help, as would the mailing list for weblocks.. the latter probably moreso :) 22:06:17 killing mailing list? 22:07:21 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:42 teilzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@p5B17FFBB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:16 hmmm, that is was, reset-sessions should have taken care of that though 22:09:30 mjf [n=mjf@r6y232.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 22:10:59 -!- langzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@p5B17F1BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:11:39 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit ["ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"] 22:14:30 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:14:56 dysinger_ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #lisp 22:15:13 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:39 leo2007: apparently not. 22:15:41 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r6y232.net.upc.cz] has quit ["GNU is *indeed* No UNIX!"] 22:16:25 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:40 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has quit [] 22:17:45 anyone here planning to go to ECLM ? 22:18:15 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:18:32 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.0.33.46] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:18:42 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:40 I'd like to. 22:21:05 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-31-189.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 22:22:07 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:48 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 22:24:07 dysinger__ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #lisp 22:24:09 dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.80.89.187] has joined #lisp 22:24:29 -!- dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.80.89.187] has left #lisp 22:26:34 -!- MinorityOfOne [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [] 22:27:51 hefner: could you point me to some resources for doing parallel processing using cl? 22:28:23 leo2007: you need a lot of vespene gas 22:28:43 in the upper left corner of the map 22:29:35 *hefner* clearly should outsource his sarcasm duties to fe[nl]ix 22:29:37 dysinger___ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #lisp 22:29:52 leo2007: sorry, no, I was just commenting on the lack of endorsements. what kind of application of parallelism are you interested in? 22:30:05 -!- brothers [n=brothers@rrcs-24-103-64-162.nyc.biz.rr.com] has left #lisp 22:30:06 minion: tell leo2007 about sciener 22:30:07 leo2007: look at sciener: Sciener Common Lisp is a commercial implementation featuring support for Symmetric multiprocessing on a range of Linux, Solaris and HP-UX platforms. at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scieneer_Common_Lisp 22:31:04 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:31:19 minion: tel leo2007 about bordeaux-threads 22:31:20 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 22:31:25 minion: tell leo2007 about bordeaux-threads 22:31:26 leo2007: please see bordeaux-threads: Portable shared-state concurrency for Common Lisp Bordeaux-Threads is a library to write multi-threaded applications in a portable way. http://www.cliki.net/bordeaux-threads 22:32:33 -!- dysinger__ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Operation timed out] 22:34:24 leo2007 that right answer will depend a great deal on what you are trying to do 22:34:39 gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-193.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 22:35:01 hefner: a monte carlo simulation that I want to see if employ parallel processing can imporve speed 22:35:22 leo2007: smp or mpi? 22:35:47 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:35:49 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:36:09 -!- dysinger [n=tim@32.177.29.119] has quit [Success] 22:36:27 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:40 leo2007: fairly coarsed-grained units of work? 22:37:04 hefner: monte carlo is embarasingly parallel isn't it? 22:37:58 you'd think. 22:37:58 I am advised by a cs friend to use haskell instead so I'm investigating which is better to use 22:38:41 leo2007: once again it depends on what your goals are 22:38:48 merimus: smp first 22:38:55 -!- mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:39:02 leo:2007 you want to eventually do mpi? 22:39:58 dysinger [n=tim@166.129.129.135] has joined #lisp 22:40:05 It's been quite a few years... but iirc monte carlo is very easy to parallelize... you can even just fork seperate process and you'll get great performance 22:40:27 however, if you want to do the mpi thing you have to take a bit more care 22:41:12 -!- dysinger_ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:41:13 merimus: that would be something in distant future, I got hardware to do smp now. 22:41:33 leo2007: the big difference is that you have a limited number of processors with smp 22:42:19 what is the limit? 22:42:32 8 22:42:38 just got it from wikipedia 22:43:20 I would just fire off some threads and have at it. I have some neat code for farming off jobs to a thread pool, with a parallel-map sort of thing built on top, but it's still short on mechanisms for accumulating results. 22:43:41 leo2007: no, not at all. an smp machine has X number of processors. Today getting 16 proc boxes is very simple. more than 64 is pretty hard. but mpi can scale across a 10,000 node cluster 22:44:05 leo2007: what is the current code written in? 22:44:15 core i7 has 16 threads 22:44:23 merimus: thanks. smp is enough 22:44:25 merimus: c++ 22:44:47 stassats: be carefull, "threads" does necessarily mean what you think it does 22:45:25 leo2007: if you want very high speed then your better off staying in C. SBCL however has good numerical performance and built in threads 22:45:30 merimus: but it's better than just 8 cores 22:45:42 -!- gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-193.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 22:45:42 stassats: no actually it's worse most of the time 22:46:16 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-141-185.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:46:25 merimus: I wnat to build a frameword for doing mc while maintaining a reasonable speed 22:47:19 leo2007: unless you really want to use a functional language I would advice you to look at Intel's TBB 22:47:47 leo2007: it is very easy, you get good performance with very little effort 22:49:09 dysinger_ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #lisp 22:50:03 merimus: thank you for tbb 22:50:09 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:50:26 leo2007: you a college student? 22:50:34 ie: is this a school project? 22:50:36 -!- dysinger___ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:50:55 merimus: a postgrad, yes 22:51:25 leo2007: aye, then C++ with TBB is your best bet 22:52:00 what about something like CUDA? 22:52:10 ,cuda 22:52:14 stassats: that is a whole different discussion :) 22:52:16 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 22:52:43 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:53 what is cuda 22:53:36 it's a library for running computation on an nvidia graphics card 22:53:48 merimus: I want to try out common lisp on a real project. that's why I am interesting in facilities in cl for doing those things 22:54:18 leo2007: then I would recomend sbcl with it's native threads 22:54:27 merimus: thanks. 22:54:33 *hefner* assumed that's where the discussion started 22:54:53 *merimus* shrug... ya never know :) 22:56:39 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-141-43.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:57:07 -!- milanj [n=milan@91.150.101.6] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:57:54 what does cl-muproc do? 22:58:18 erlang-style message passing, it looks like 22:59:03 erlang... yet another whole branch to the discussion :) 22:59:51 doesn't sound relevant to me. 23:00:22 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:00:46 erlang method would probably work in this case 23:04:40 dysinger__ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #lisp 23:06:55 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:07:17 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-197-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:03 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:08:29 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:08:41 -!- dysinger_ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:08:48 thank you all for suggestions. 23:10:00 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 23:11:07 -!- dysinger [n=tim@166.129.129.135] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:14:57 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-233-205.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:46 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@17.224.12.65] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:25:40 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-14-180.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:26:37 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-197-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:28:01 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:28:58 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:04 dreish_ [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:31:29 chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:32 lukego [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has joined #lisp 23:31:34 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:54 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:35:34 gn all 23:35:36 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:35:48 -!- merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:35:50 -!- Blkt [n=Blkt@net-93-146-137-163.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit ["(cons 'java 'sucks)"] 23:37:09 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-132-8-72.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:37:28 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-132-8-72.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:38:33 -!- dreish_ is now known as dreish 23:43:15 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F480.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:43:22 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:44:35 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:46:07 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 23:50:13 saikat__ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 23:51:52 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 23:55:26 -!- Ppjet6 [n=ppjet@ivr94-11-88-187-39-7.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:57:32 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [] 23:58:41 sykopomp` [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 23:58:46 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-066-230.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:58:47 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]