00:00:01 *Sikander* never understood the whole xorg overhaul thing 00:00:10 hefner: actually it wasn't, not this one 00:00:18 hefner: but at least xcb is (supposed to be) multi-threaded and async 00:00:24 stassats: ok 00:00:50 p_l: you're sure? 00:00:58 afaik it was someones idea to redo the lower portion in threadsafe code, and decided to use static analysis. There's a way to use Xlib through it 00:00:59 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:13 I'm pretty sure xcb is freedesktop... 00:01:33 Sikander: They adopted the project, but unlike most of theirs, it's sound idea 00:01:41 heheh 00:01:42 and actually works without breaking compatibility 00:01:44 at this point, valid technical reasons don't even matter. I just want them all to die, painfully. 00:02:01 hefner: will you go back to X11R5? 00:02:20 I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure all apps except CLX-using ones and statically compiled stuff from other machines use XCB 00:02:25 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-75-186.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:02:25 (on my laptop) 00:03:35 it did cause some breaking in Java, some time ago, but that was because Sun's X11 handling in Java is *far* from good, not even perfect 00:03:51 *stassats* doesn't see any improvements in X over five years 00:03:56 so you had to patch a shared library (usually with sed) 00:04:10 Well, for your Xorg enjoyment, I'll just say.... Intel! 00:04:19 sadly true. XCB was IMHO the only bright spot 00:04:49 Sikander: You mean we-suck-so-hard-we-got-dicks-showing-from-anus Intel? 00:05:08 that's.. colorful 00:05:16 *Sikander* never new Intel's first name. 00:05:32 hefner: I spared them going the other way around 00:05:49 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 00:06:05 and after fighting with intel drivers for some time, I long for the time of XFree 4.3 and nvidia binary driver 00:07:01 So is clx a pure lisp library that is comparable to xlib an xcb? 00:07:29 yes 00:07:46 So it doesn't suffer from xlib cruft! great! 00:07:48 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit [Client Quit] 00:08:05 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-75-186.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:09:19 a curious example of C versus CL in action. CLX and xlib must've been written around the same time, but xlib had to be thrown out and rewritten while CLX has aged and evolved gracefully even with a fraction of the manpower available for maintaining it. 00:09:57 (On the other hand, CLX is missing many or most of the extensions. A SMOP, surely.) 00:11:08 why has lisp not gained as much exposure as it should have, any good texts on the reasons? 00:11:29 yeah, with such examples, it's difficult to understand C's dominance 00:11:46 worse is better? 00:12:01 at the very least, the lisp macro's vs C "macro's" is shameful 00:12:26 heheh 00:12:29 mediocracy 00:12:45 macros, apparently, are too advanced for your average programmer 00:12:56 stassats, it would appear so, i have only been toying with lisp recently and feels like it would be really good to do development in the language 00:13:35 I have most experience with C, and it took me a moment to really understand the lisp macro system. 00:13:48 i meant what to read: http://www.dreamsongs.com/WorseIsBetter.html 00:13:53 hhh i haven't even touched that yet :p 00:14:11 Guthur: it seems like every other weenie with a blog likes to put in his two cents' worth. 00:14:28 not counting the blob of people that do so on c.l.l. 00:14:34 I only recently (a few months ago) started using lisp on a more regular basis (after having dealt with scheme several years ago) 00:14:39 and the occasional one that drops by here. 00:15:40 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:16:01 though i would still recommend python for most development, C++ is just way to much effort, C# is nice but tied to MS, python has a nice sweet spot 00:16:33 I like python's "batteries included" approach 00:17:06 I think there are more batteries in Ruby, if that's any criterion. 00:17:20 the 'standard' lib needs tidied up, with its haphazard naming schemes :| 00:17:23 Never tried ruby 00:17:59 Well, I'm in physics, and numpy and scipy are pretty decent 00:18:04 Have a go one day. It's really pleasant. 00:18:20 I don't want batteries, I want a DIY kit to build a jet turbine. 00:18:26 in lisp, I have to get bindings to gsl and/or lapack etc 00:18:32 I hear a lot about ruby like that, but I have feeling I wont gain much by looking, probably should have a dabble though 00:18:42 hefner: you _really_ are oldschool roll your own! 00:18:49 matzacred lisp. 00:18:55 (ruby) 00:19:02 hey, we are in #lisp, we are supposed to mock other languages 00:19:07 Sikander: doesnt it bother you that you have to go to C to get any kind of performance with python ? 00:19:21 xristos: in python's defense, ctypes is pretty good. 00:19:22 xristos: which is exactly why I came sniffing here 00:19:25 ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 00:19:36 Better matzacred lisp (ruby) than non-matzacred non-lisp (python) :) 00:19:37 or at least looks to be that way. 00:19:55 ctypes is nice i agree 00:20:02 Actually, ruby and tcl led me to get interested in CL. 00:20:06 antoszka: python has some renowned lispers supporting it, though (Norvig, in particular) 00:20:08 xristos i heard about a project to improve pythons performance, unladen swallow 00:20:12 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 00:20:16 xristos: but numpy has most (all?) of the important routines in C and/or Fortran 00:20:21 sykopomp: Right. 00:20:26 Guthur: python performance will surely improve with time 00:20:34 Guthur: I thought the main point of Unladen Swallow was to get rid of the GIL and give it a better GC :P 00:20:44 its multithreading is atrocious by all accounts 00:20:55 *sykopomp* heard something about python spawning any numbers out of the [-1,100] range as new objects. 00:21:02 sykopomp and general performance increase 00:21:20 that's what I got from their website anyway 00:21:31 ah, well, you know 00:21:35 "throw money at it" and all that 00:21:41 look at what it's done to the JVM after all. 00:21:41 given the performance difference between Python and C seems to be something like a factor of a 100x, I'm a little underwhelmed by ambitions to make it "3-5x faster" (or whatever it was) 00:22:02 hefner: the difference between C and ruby is particularly hilarious. 00:22:19 heheh 00:22:21 "off the charts" kind of hilarious. 00:22:27 I didn't even try ruby because of that 00:22:28 ruby 1.9 is more on par with python/perl these days. 00:22:37 its always going to be hard to beat straight C, the compilers have been optimised again and again 00:23:15 to be honest i have only ever done C++ though 00:23:25 still, I think that the simple syntax of lisp is a big plus 00:23:28 I didn't bother with ruby because: 1. I hate hipsters. 2. I hate syntax. 3. I hate hipsters. 00:23:32 p_l's implementation of erastothenes' sieve compiled on my sbcl was about 60 times faster than python. 00:23:33 did I mention I hate hipsters? 00:23:49 sykopomp: I hope you aren't using a Mac then... 00:23:58 Sikander: oh god no. Nonono. 00:24:02 antoszka: where is it? 00:24:09 lisp just doesn't have to rich library collection of all the other languages, thats the problem 00:24:11 sykopomp: I bet you're chatting from your iphone... 00:24:26 Guthur: I dunno. I've had problems picking which library to use. 00:24:33 stassats: hope I'm not misattributing it... lol 00:24:39 I think if there's any problems with lisp libs is that they're quite often unmaintained :) 00:24:44 stassats: i'll see if I can remember 00:24:44 sykopomp thats one perspective alright :) 00:24:51 abandoned/undocumented 00:24:51 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-1-252.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 00:24:55 antoszka: I think you're mistaking me with someone, or I did more stuff when I was asleep and can't recall 00:25:00 oh yes, and almost entirely undocumented. 00:25:01 p_l: yeah 00:25:10 stassats: maybe it was yours? :) 00:25:10 sometimes you'll get lucky and have someone that wrote a howto.txt 00:25:15 damn 00:25:15 about a year ago. 00:25:21 I think the fact that it's relatively easy to write your own stuff, is also what causes an "unstructured" system for having libraries in lisp 00:25:28 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-1-252.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Client Quit] 00:25:32 the extra minimalistic documentation on the libs i have seen is a challenge alright 00:25:36 antoszka: if it was me, then i'm not interested 00:25:42 Sikander: it's also quite easy to patch libs yourself, I find :) 00:25:45 I end up doing that a lot. 00:25:55 and I usually figure the maintainer doesn't care much for my patches. 00:25:56 but it does force you to develop a deeper understanding I suppose... 00:26:08 Probably everyone does his own ffi to the functions they need.... Write their own macros and reuse their own utilities 00:26:19 Guthur: I don't see any merit to "let's not document", except for "gotta get it done once, and done fast" 00:26:36 sykopomp: ok, that was pjb 00:26:41 stassats:  00:26:49 stassats: it's in his utilities repo 00:26:51 So for a newcomer it's a bit overwhelming (or should I say: underwhelming?) since there's a collection of utilties to be built up... 00:27:01 sykopomp: sorry, tabfail 00:27:07 sykopomp: you just made me realise how much i do miss msdn :p 00:27:10 but before that you really have to figure out how "things are done" 00:27:17 Guthur: msdn? 00:27:35 Microsoft developer network 00:27:57 its where all their documentation is, and it is very thorough 00:28:04 in most cases 00:28:20 mm 00:28:24 anyways 00:28:35 i especially like people ignoring doc hints 00:28:35 i used to use C# and .net for my dev :) 00:28:49 this is probably more of a side effect of the lisp ecosystem being far smaller than most others. 00:29:06 as if its a problem writing a couple of lines for every exported function that can be used interactively 00:29:09 but hey, we still get a lot of code written, so (incf lisp) 00:29:26 heheh 00:29:40 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:29:41 schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 00:30:08 I especially like how every library gets rewritten from scratch if the previous one hasn't been committed to in six months. 00:30:26 hefner: have you -seen- how bad some of those things are, though?! 00:30:36 *sykopomp* hates cl-couch so much. 00:30:45 *sykopomp* likes cl-couchdb, but that one is a bit more minimal. 00:30:57 hefner: quiz time! 00:31:03 you have two exported symbols 00:31:04 uh oh. 00:31:08 couch-request* and couch-request 00:31:12 guess which one is the macro! 00:31:28 -!- alpheus [n=user@98.215.226.98] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 00:31:28 couch-request? 00:31:32 yes 00:31:37 I win! 00:31:40 What do I win? 00:31:41 yay! \o/ 00:31:49 Lucky guess.... 00:31:51 you win a one-way ticket to 'patch it pls' land! 00:32:08 But because of this, I would be afraid to make my code public 00:32:30 redeemable for face value in cash?\ 00:32:34 oh oh, even better 00:32:48 I'm a complete n00b in lisp so anyone here would laugh their ass off... 00:32:53 couch-request*'s lambda list is like so: (method server path &optional keys content-type content) 00:32:58 guess what PATH is! 00:33:23 *hefner* clones cl-2d, looks at list of things he's never heard of in dependencies, decides to search elsewhere rather than install them 00:33:38 d'oh! 00:33:39 sykopomp: a list? 00:33:42 yes! 00:34:00 hefner you are on a roll tonight :) 00:34:16 which is turned into a URI with this delicious format string: "~a~{/~a~}~:[~;?~]~:*~{~a=~a~^&~}" 00:34:27 nice... 00:34:32 Guthur: with all do respect, but the documentation for the .net framework is rubbish. Most of it is written by the users of it. And much of it isn't formal. It can change between minor revisions without authoraty... (disclaimer: I am not a C# programmer, I've only helped people with it and what I know is what they could show me (and what I googled myself)) 00:35:10 Sikander: this library is linked from apache's site. 00:35:38 sykopomp: ? 00:35:42 madnificent possible, I didn't run into too many problems, but I'm sure there is some, at least there is some documentation though :) 00:35:43 sykopomp: cl-couch? 00:35:49 Sikander: yes. 00:36:13 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:23 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:36:32 Guthur: the javadoc documentation is (imho) a rather good one. What you would actually need is a formal specification of what their code will do... if you have that, then I'm happy 00:36:56 phf [n=phf@pool-71-175-128-66.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:59 just never go into java, had to do it at uni and never liked it much 00:37:07 s/go/got* 00:37:19 not sure why though 00:37:23 sykopomp: but only in the wiki, though 00:37:41 Guthur: hwelcome to my life :( (school too) 00:37:49 I never liked coffee much... 00:37:52 hello sykopomp 00:37:52 i'm liking non proprietary stuff now :) 00:39:15 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 00:39:41 madnificent school was a long time ago for me now, 8 years now since i last touched java 00:39:57 hefner: So you _are_ looking for a plotting lib now... 00:40:24 i wish someone had introduced me to lisp then instead :| 00:40:44 So what do you think of the scheme -> python move in MIT then 00:41:21 Sikander: sort of. not really. wondering if there's a sweeter spot on the pretty versus time consuming continuum than plotting with gnuplot (or through octave, since I don't remember how to use gnuplot), and gnuplot output is ugly as sin. 00:41:25 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@ppp-70-253-78-64.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:42:09 hefner: Well, I didn't get cl-2d to work, but it sure looks purdy though 00:42:19 yeah, I was impressed by the pictures. 00:42:29 there's the plplot bindings... 00:42:33 but maybe I'll play robotron instead. 00:42:36 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-204-224.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:51 gnuplot output isn't that ugly... 00:44:15 well, maybe it is if you don't use wx 00:45:19 alexbobp [n=alex@ppp-70-253-78-64.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:34 are doubles really doubles in lisp? What I mean is, I know that in ocaml, one bit is used for the GC. is that also in lisp (sbcl)? 00:46:17 i think they conform to IEEE, whatever that means 00:46:25 Bigshot_: hello? 00:46:29 what's the use of this "delicious" string? 00:47:08 ok, I think that ocaml's internal own floats don't (because of the one bit) 00:47:15 building a URI for couch to use based on a series of strings/symbols. 00:47:30 Sikander: the standard doesn't specify IEEE, but all modern implementations do have IEEE floats and doubles. 00:47:48 hefner: at least cl-2d compiles. I still haven't got the CLIM scientific graphic library to compile 00:48:11 pjb: that means that gc of doubles is handled differently (in a less sucky way?) than ocaml.. 00:48:21 p_l: did you get it to compile? 00:48:44 p_l: I can't get axis.lisp to compile! 00:48:55 Sikander: yes. 00:49:40 Sikander: linux, x86-64, SBCL 1.0.28.70 00:49:42 pjb: it's really annoying when you're doing computations and find that the usual limitations on numerical error are suddenly different in ocaml 00:49:59 Sikander: that's why there are CL implementations. 00:50:22 I don't understand why people keep trying to use toy languages with toy implementations... 00:50:26 p_l: which metabang-bind? 00:50:45 pjb: I wanted to try functional, but faster than haskell 00:50:53 haskell is pretty fast 00:50:54 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:51:19 sykopomp: but (according to their own website) not in the same range as ocaml which is pretty damn fast. 00:51:24 Sikander: hmm... I don't remember, I updated it since that time 00:51:27 but then again, sbcl is fast as well 00:51:56 haskell does better than sbcl on some of those shootout bullshit-benchmarks. 00:51:59 p_l: Can you maybe help me? I use the newest metabang-bind and still can't get cl-2d to compile 00:51:59 ymmv, as usual ;P 00:53:44 I e-mailed tamas about my woes in compiling cl-2d, but haven't heard back yet 00:54:28 sykopomp: I was gonna try haskell as well, but eventually decided to just move to common lisp instead 00:54:33 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C2D8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:55:34 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-145.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:55:59 p_l: yeah, that thing is ancient, and I think it's only in the mcclim repository for the joy of trying to get ancient clim code to run on mcclim 00:56:18 *hefner* has still never tried compiling scigraph 00:57:10 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-127-196.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:57:34 hefner: I didn't get it from mcclim repo, is the thing from bbn copied to it? 00:58:07 it was mostly the build system that put me out, I might get somewhere after rewriting it to ASDF 00:58:50 I didn't even realize it came from BBN, but yeah, Scigraph. Same thing. A few years ago, Tim Moore checked into mcclim's CVS (it 00:59:12 (it's in the mcclim/Apps/ directory), converted it to use ASDF, and (presumably) got it working with some patches 00:59:18 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 00:59:23 wow 00:59:34 all this time spent fighting build system 01:00:11 cuda capable video card. This'll be fun (: 01:00:37 sykopomp: fix the benchmarks. Most of the shootout programs are badly written. 01:00:56 pkhuong: I've noticed. I don't care much for the shootout game. 01:01:17 some of them are fine, except they haven't been updated for the quad core shootout. 01:01:37 I don't perceive them as a realistic representation of the languages, overall. 01:02:08 you don't write software by writing an 80-line thing and then rewriting and retesting the same 80 lines of code for maximum performance. 01:02:11 :\ 01:02:24 at least not in most cases I can think of. 01:02:46 well, I'm gonna try this scigraph thing.... compiling now... 01:04:25 hefner: "someone" should update mandelbrot for xadd instead of cmpxchg, though. 01:05:08 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 01:07:00 ruediger_ [n=ruediger@62-47-154-38.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 01:08:29 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:01 -!- hypno [n=hypno@195.43.248.100] has quit ["leaving"] 01:12:03 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-53.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:13:44 okay, screw this. I have no interest in running scigraph anyway. 01:15:26 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:16:18 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:20 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-26-100.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:17:06 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:17:09 scigraph does seem to compile... 01:17:28 but I don't know yet where/how to start it... 01:21:37 nuntius [n=nuntius@c-71-232-15-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:18 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:23:36 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:23:50 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:24:00 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-148-37.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:24:37 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:25:51 hmm, (count 1 bit-vector :start 1) isn't optimized in sbcl 01:30:24 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:32:25 pkhuong_ [n=pkhuong@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:32:50 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:32:53 -!- pkhuong_ is now known as pkhuong 01:34:02 -!- Lectus [n=Lectus@189.105.50.149] has quit [" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- It'll be on slashdot one day..."] 01:39:42 stassats: :start messes with the transform. 01:40:07 i saw 01:41:34 -!- plage [n=user@118.71.57.230] has left #lisp 01:41:51 -!- ruediger_ [n=ruediger@62-47-154-38.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:41:54 shouldn't be too hard to compute left-overs with the usual count 01:42:49 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:42:59 sure, nobody wrote the function for that, though. 01:43:02 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:10 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:05 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-206-141.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:53:06 p_l: did you fix your highlighting on emacs? 01:53:33 *hefner* wonders if "the cffi definitions in combination with the original C documentation should suffice" is really an adequate way to document a binding 01:53:52 <_3b> not if the binding is any good :p 01:54:16 well! 01:54:33 <_3b> might be OK for something that is just direct C wrappers with no extra niceness on top of that though 01:55:13 <_3b> (and not like i document any of my stuff either way) 01:58:03 maybe you need a program to scan you source and tell you when it thinks something has not been documented, it bugs you until you do it :p 01:58:19 s/you/your 01:58:32 your source* 01:59:21 is there any good shortcut keys tutorial on slime on emacs? 01:59:49 C-h b 01:59:50 <_3b> you could check the SLIME menu, most of the options have the keys listed 01:59:52 Bigshot_ there is a cheat shear 01:59:57 sheet* 02:00:08 link? 02:00:45 http://www.pchristensen.com/blog/articles/public-beta-open-for-ultimate-n00b-slimeemacs-cheat-sheet/ 02:01:15 it seems ok, has helped me get a few common commands 02:01:34 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:02:04 <_3b> what setup do people use where that no-whitespace-on-the-left thing is a good idea? 02:02:14 when i do C-c C-k i get "not connected" what's the meaning of it? 02:02:29 it means run M-x slime. 02:03:44 hm 02:04:00 _3b: that bothers me as well. It's so confusing... 02:04:11 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@54.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:04:22 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@54.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 02:05:23 pkhuong: i get spawning a child: invalid argument when i type M-x slime 02:05:40 <_3b> your slime seems to be misconfigured 02:07:10 Bigshot_ pasted "lisp config" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81840 02:07:43 <_3b> try using / instead of \ in the inferior-lisp-program path 02:08:19 <_3b> also, the comment above that is probably wrong, i'm guessing it is clisp not ccl :) 02:08:26 <_3b> (not that that affects anything) 02:09:07 -!- schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:11:08 same thing i changed it 02:11:41 <_3b> restarted emacs also? 02:11:45 yeah 02:12:33 <_3b> what does it say if you do M-: inferior-lisp-program RET ? 02:14:04 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:14:42 http://pastebin.ca/1459551 02:16:58 <_3b> hmm, maybe it doesn't like the space 02:17:13 <_3b> might try progra~1 or whatever it calls Program Files in dos filenames 02:17:38 i should add escape char? 02:17:44 program\ files 02:18:32 <_3b> not sure that would work 02:18:48 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:17 still not connected 02:20:28 <_3b> with ~1 or \ ? 02:20:58 \ 02:21:02 let me try yours 02:21:55 nope 02:22:53 wjwhust [n=diel@219.239.98.225] has joined #lisp 02:23:23 <_3b> ok, try (setq slime-lisp-implementations '((clisp ("c:/Program Files/clisp-2.47/clisp.exe" "-K" "full"))) (setq slime-default-lisp 'clisp) 02:23:57 where should i add this code? at the end? 02:23:59 would that make a difference? 02:24:20 <_3b> put it after the (setq inferior-lisp-program ...) or replace it 02:25:09 <_3b> stassats: the inferior-lisp-program version splits on whitespace to separate program from args, slime version doesn't need to 02:26:25 progra~1 should've dealt with that 02:26:30 _3b: an error occured while loading .emacs 02:26:50 unbalanced parenthesis 02:27:24 <_3b> oops, yeah... 1 more ) after "full"))) 02:28:10 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-5849.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 02:29:51 <_3b> (also, if that works, you might want to check on the "-K" "full", don't actually remember what that does, or if that applies to normal installs or not) 02:31:16 not connected when i type in the source (* 8 9 17) and then hit C-c C-k 02:31:17 merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:26 <_3b> did M-x slime work? 02:31:55 wow this is cool 02:31:56 yeah 02:32:07 i saw flying characters and stuff :) 02:32:11 <_3b> :) 02:32:25 <_3b> you should be able to just type in the form and get the result in that buffer then 02:32:34 <_3b> and C-c C-k should work in the lisp buffer 02:32:37 should i unblock itÉ 02:32:42 firewallÉ 02:32:51 <_3b> probably 02:33:22 <_3b> emacs needs to be able to connect to the lisp process 02:33:23 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:33:23 windows doesn't allow local communications? 02:35:49 Bigshot_: beware, once you unblock it will overtake control and launch nuclear missiles 02:35:58 ahahahah 02:36:00 a 02:36:16 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.129.62] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:36:47 it's lisp nevertheless, AI and all 02:37:40 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:37:41 it says compilation finished - how should i run this compiled file 02:38:29 you don't, you compile definitions in that file and then run them in the REPL 02:38:59 put (defun hello () "hello world") in that file, C-c C-k, and then (hello) at the REPL 02:39:14 -!- merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:39:16 minion: tell Bigshot_ about slime.mov 02:39:16 Bigshot_: look at slime.mov: "using SLIME" video by Marco Baringer, http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 02:42:03 -!- HET3 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:43:55 i get this LOAD: A file with name #1=ASDF does not exist 02:43:57 [Condition of type SYSTEM::SIMPLE-FILE-ERROR] 02:45:38 -!- wjwhust [n=diel@219.239.98.225] has quit [Client Quit] 02:47:49 chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:59 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:49:47 msingh [n=msingh@203.171.123.8.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:50:05 is there a place to look at examples of using sb-ext:run-program? 02:51:26 hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:32 <_3b> google code search? 02:51:40 i get zero hits.. 02:51:52 oh code search 02:54:09 _3b, thanks! 02:57:40 -!- chessguy 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joined #lisp 03:39:08 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:40:31 elias` [n=c@host86-159-170-69.range86-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 03:42:42 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:44:11 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-69-221-252-243.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:39 nobody got any ideas as to what this /1=ASDF isÉ 03:45:54 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:46:12 sheesh why does this happen when i type some char some other char gets inÉ 03:48:19 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:29 -!- Bigshot_ [n=BIG_SHOT@CPE002129abc864-CM001ac35cd4d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 03:52:29 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["scary lightning"] 04:05:15 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:06:17 *pem* is away: Gone away for now 04:07:01 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 04:10:47 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:13:03 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 04:16:11 |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E444D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:10 -!- slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-130-123.3g.claro.net.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:26:53 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:32:02 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 04:34:52 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E476BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 04:39:16 domiel [n=dnj@58.172.210.231] has joined #lisp 04:41:54 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:33 saikat__ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 04:44:33 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:46:21 -!- saikat__ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:47:21 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 04:47:39 hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:15 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:54:40 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 04:54:40 -!- rdad [n=rdad@cpe-67-247-62-86.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 04:55:36 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.129.62] has joined #lisp 04:57:03 ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 04:57:16 dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-198-84.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:37 Bigshot_ [n=BIG_SHOT@CPE002129abc864-CM001ac35cd4d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:58:42 fvw [n=sdfpme@116.18.78.13] has joined #lisp 05:00:06 does anyone know what's this error: LOAD: A file with name #1=ASDF does not exist 05:00:08 [Condition of type SYSTEM::SIMPLE-FILE-ERROR 05:00:21 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:00:32 <_3b> what did you do when you got that message? 05:01:44 nothing just M-x slime 05:02:51 _3b: Any new developments with your swf work? 05:03:28 <_3b> ahaas: in the process of attaching my swf parser/writer lib to the compiler 05:03:40 neat! 05:04:03 <_3b> Bigshot_: remove slime-asdf from the (slime-setup '(...)) line in emacs config and try again 05:04:14 <_3b> Bigshot_: though you will probably want to install asdf at some point 05:04:23 for what use? 05:04:39 <_3b> ahaas: all the pieces involved are horrible pieces of junk codewise, but starting to work :) 05:04:41 Bigshot_: think of it as kind of "make" 05:05:05 <_3b> Bigshot_: asdf is a popular way to load libraries/applications for CL 05:05:21 maybe i should installit 05:05:49 Bigshot_: You're using CLISP? 05:05:57 yeah 05:06:16 hah, figures. I tested the config I gave you under CCL, which includes a copy of ASDF 05:06:29 p_l: did you fix the source code coloring thing? 05:06:33 _3b: The next thing that I would like to make is an application that can take a swf, encrypt the payload and then create a new swf that contains the encrypted payload and the code necessary to decrypt it when it runs. 05:07:14 <_3b> ahaas: sounds like it wouldn't be too hard (aside from the actual encrypt/decrypt routines) 05:07:40 I don't think so, either. People are doing it now, but using two swfs. 05:08:01 Bigshot_: Well, it works on my side. So I can't replicate the error (I honestly don't know why) 05:09:34 Bigshot_: I'd encourage you to use CCL, though. Seems like it has working threading on windows :) 05:10:43 <_3b> ahaas: you can load a .swf from a ByteArray (or some subclass), right? 05:10:51 yeah, I think so. 05:10:55 when do we use slime-asdf p_l ? when we have more than 1 lisp source code file to compile? 05:11:23 asdf. slime-asdf is just a helper 05:11:33 <_3b> slime-asdf is just a convenient way to interact with asdf, which you would use when you want to load libs/apps, or when you have multiple files 05:11:49 _3b: I use an ad service that does that kind of encryption for me, and it also has a really cool versioning system that can patch swfs on the fly. 05:12:13 asdf for loading multiple files with load order automated for you (it can also call other systems, so it automates "linking" of libraries) 05:12:34 <_3b> ahaas: sounds interesting, which service? 05:12:42 _3b: mochiads.com 05:12:46 <_3b> ahaas: not that i'm to the point of having any swf worth publishing yet :) 05:13:01 <_3b> ahaas: cool, that was the one i was planning to look at first 05:13:26 _3b: They have some really talented devs there. I think they do a lot of coding in Erlang, and they have released some libs for swfs. 05:13:49 mochiweb? 05:14:03 I think so. Everything starts with "mochi" 05:14:17 <_3b> ahaas: also, they are popular enough that i recognize the name, which is more than pretty much everyone but google (and not sure i've actually seen anyone using their swf ads) 05:14:26 rullie_ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:14:37 Mochi partnered with google, too. 05:15:02 I wish the ads paid more, but their service and the features they offer are really nice. 05:15:34 <_3b> cool 05:15:45 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:47 p_l: doe you know what should i add in slime-setup to "enable" source code highlighting? 05:15:51 s/doe/do 05:16:17 slime-syntax-highlight? 05:16:26 <_3b> try adding (setq font-lock-maximum-decoration t) in .emacs (anywhere in the file is ok) 05:17:05 yeah. I don't know why it doesn't start 05:17:07 ahaas: they used to use a lot of twisted, so they have fully moved to erlang now? 05:17:40 The only difference is that I used to set Consolas as my font... 05:17:59 phf: I'm not sure. Everything I've seen connected to them has been Erlang, but I've only been using them for about a year. 05:18:38 phf: I think the main dev's name is Bob Ippolito (sp?), and I remembered seeing his name in Pygame mailing lists 5 years ago. 05:19:39 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:19:57 I visited the Mochi guys about a year ago and they seemed like pretty much an erlang shop 05:20:44 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-26-118.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 05:20:48 oh, gotcha. bob ippolito used to be part of the twisted python click, and while i was writing twisted code, i read his blog. i remember he started doing little bit of erlang three or four years ago 05:22:03 lukego: What drew your interest to Mochi? 05:22:36 lukego: have you been to superhappydevhouse? :) 05:22:55 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-22-63.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:24:49 what's the link to that slime movie i can't get it on google 05:25:32 <_3b> minion: slime.mov 05:25:33 slime.mov: "using SLIME" video by Marco Baringer, http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 05:26:12 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:26:24 got it 05:26:49 Btw, I just moved to Portland, OR. If anyone lives here and knows of any gatherings, I'd love to know. 05:36:01 what is this inferior lisp program? 05:36:44 <_3b> it is the lisp slime is connected to, 'inferior' means it is a subprocess of emacs 05:36:49 Bigshot_: It means a lisp process started by Emacs. Emacs terminology - "inferior" = "running under emacs control" 05:37:32 <_3b> yay for :allow-other-keys t 05:37:58 p_l: what will be the path of our inferior-lisp-program? 05:37:59 <_3b> only had to duplicate that code 3 times instead of 5 :p 05:38:13 clisp.exe? 05:38:30 <_3b> Bigshot_: didn't we get that working already? 05:38:37 i am watching this video and it has openmcl 05:38:51 in .emacs file 05:38:55 Bigshot_: OpenMCL is the old name of CCL 05:39:15 which itself is derived, afaik, from MCL - Macintosh Common Lisp 05:39:45 we dont' need inferior lisp do we p_l ? 05:40:11 oops 05:40:15 what am i saying 05:40:30 Bigshot_: Well, when we get Climacs into better shape, we can drop Emacs Lisp... 05:43:22 ejs [n=eugen@164-216-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:30 -!- domiel [n=dnj@58.172.210.231] has left #lisp 05:52:56 _3b: syntax highlighting is still not on 05:53:41 Bigshot_: wut 05:53:54 source code highlighting 05:54:23 I am amazed at how much trouble you're having with just setting up emacs. It's completely beyond me how this can happen. 05:54:44 Bigshot_: what buffer are you in, what's the buffer's name, is SLIME on, and do you have lisp-mode enabled? 05:55:06 for the record, you don't even need SLIME to be connected in order to get syntax highlighting for lisp 05:57:10 how do i enable lisp-mode? 05:57:24 it should be enabled by default for new files that end in .lisp 05:57:41 yeah i've file ending in lisp but no hightlighting 05:57:47 try doing C-x C-f ~/test.lisp 05:58:07 you -should- see 'Lisp' as part of the list of modes on the mode-line. 05:58:49 nice 05:59:04 how come it works now? 05:59:15 PEBCAK 05:59:30 wut? 05:59:46 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebcak 06:00:08 it's kind of like how my dreamcast never seems to work when I'm drunk. it seems like the technology is flaky, but really it's the operator. 06:00:30 and sometimes long time doesn't help to notice that, even when you're genuinely trying 06:00:50 I don't know what you were doing, but you were doing something wrong. It's good that it works now, so don't worry about it :) 06:00:54 use that method for opening lisp files. 06:00:57 *p_l* can't recall some of the config changes he did lately... 06:01:14 let me show them to you p_l 06:01:17 it's possible you were just creating a buffer that happened to be named foo.lisp, which won't activate syntax highlighting. 06:01:57 http://pastebin.ca/1459687 06:02:08 -!- dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-198-84.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:02:08 p_l: ^^^^ 06:02:19 oh wow 06:02:27 how did this happen? 06:02:46 what? 06:03:06 <_3b> (setq lisp-indent-function 'common-lisp-indent-function) 06:03:18 this is a bit of a mess 06:03:50 also, clisp is not ccl 06:03:51 :\ 06:04:02 <_3b> sykopomp: a few hours of psychic debugging with various people will do that :p 06:04:29 _3b: I think the problem here is user inexperience, not a misconfiguration... 06:04:43 Bigshot_: we should step back and simplify :) 06:04:52 what needs to be done? 06:05:02 hold on, I'll just write it out for you 06:05:06 <_3b> sykopomp: i meant the mess, from various 'try adding this' without any intermediate cleanup 06:05:08 thanks 06:08:07 sykopomp pasted "config for bigshot" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81841 06:08:12 don't erase what you had before 06:08:15 just comment it all out 06:08:19 k 06:08:21 dump that paste into your .emacs 06:08:38 then do C-x C-f path/to/foo.lisp 06:08:43 and M-x slime 06:09:00 i don't have asdf installed it seems like but still let me try 06:09:18 that does not require anything with asdf 06:09:23 thankfully 06:09:27 <_3b> sykopomp: the slime-lisp-implementations part was important :p 06:09:46 <_3b> inferior-lisp-program only uses up to the first space as the executable name 06:10:11 _3b: oh? Is this a windows problem? 06:10:19 <_3b> also, slime-asdf contrib needs asdf installed 06:10:26 sigh 06:10:29 <_3b> should be a problem on any os, if you have spaces in the path 06:10:36 oh. I see. 06:10:39 hahaha 06:10:39 windows? no wonder. 06:10:43 that's great 06:11:02 well, this is clearly a step back :P 06:12:02 mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 06:12:13 hello 06:13:06 doesn't work spawning child proc: invalid args 06:13:22 yeah, sorry, someone pointed it out 06:13:23 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-154-106.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 06:13:27 delete that previous one... 06:13:38 sykopomp annotated #81841 "lisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81841#1 06:13:42 try that one now 06:14:15 Well, I pasted a config that worked... with CCL wx86cl64.exe :D 06:14:23 hahaha :) 06:14:40 aquateen [n=chris@c-24-18-15-69.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:14:47 p_l: how is ccl on windows, anyways? 06:14:59 I'm sort of hoping to be able to deploy stuff to it. 06:15:20 sykopomp: haven't tested much, but so far, what seem to be implementation-related errors can be restarted with retry (I guess some low-level stuff could cause that) 06:15:45 also, for client deployment, you'll have to generate two images 06:15:54 which will require two windows systems 06:16:03 one x64 and one x86? 06:16:06 yes 06:16:06 works! 06:16:13 why was that again? 06:16:16 Bigshot_: good. 06:16:24 Bigshot_: now go hack :) 06:16:29 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-53.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:16:35 sykopomp: 64bit build of course works only on 64bit, and 32bit crashes on 64bit windows 06:16:49 yeah but does this config. file cover all the fancy things about "slime"? sykopomp 06:16:49 that's annoying 06:16:52 also, I heard that they consider 64bit build more stable and preferred target 06:17:02 Bigshot_: it covers all the fancy stuff you'll be wanting to use for a while 06:17:05 KISS 06:17:11 yeah 06:17:23 why is programming in lisp calling hacking? 06:17:31 because it's noble. 06:17:33 sykopomp: also, if you're planning on releasing server apps, 64bit is the way - NT6.1 server won't support 32bit architectures 06:17:36 called** 06:17:37 as opposed to code-monkeying. 06:17:44 Bigshot_: read Jargon File 06:17:57 http://www.catb.org/jargon/ 06:18:06 p_l: I was thinking more regular client apps :) 06:18:18 <_3b> sykopomp: nah, deploy on flash :) 06:18:22 but it sounds like CCL is actually pretty unstable on windows :( 06:18:28 _3b: oh god no. 06:18:40 I'm uninstalling that horrible thing the moment my browser supports html5 06:18:41 sykopomp: then I recommend making a small 32bit C launcher that selects proper runtime, and you've got instant dual arch support :) 06:18:50 <_3b> sykopomp: heh, sheeple might even map well to the native prototype stuff :) (probably not though) 06:19:05 sykopomp: or have MSI installer install proper version 06:19:14 *_3b* has no idea how that stuff actually works beyond the minimum to be ab;e to create a class/instance 06:19:34 _3b: I don't know how I'd map all the fancy stuff to ecmascript :\ 06:19:37 sykopomp: I believe it's the stablest of free lisps on windows that are nice for development and have threads 06:19:44 it's like trying to get java to work like CLOS 06:19:48 <_3b> sykopomp: who cares about ecmascript 06:20:06 (ECL works without problems regarding bitsize and has threading, but might be less helpful with restarts, afaik) 06:20:12 _3b: ecmascript, as in the language behind actionscript/javascript/jscript 06:20:17 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit ["bye"] 06:20:29 <_3b> sykopomp: as in the one i completely ignore when compiling to the flash vm? :) 06:20:37 ah, I see what you mean now :) 06:20:58 <_3b> though as i said, i have no idea if the object model in the vm is anywhere near what you would need 06:21:13 jgracin [n=jgracin@93.159.74.33] has joined #lisp 06:21:23 it could probably be built on it, I imagine 06:21:38 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-53.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:21:38 all you -really- need is lambda, after all :) 06:21:45 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@93.159.74.33] has quit [Client Quit] 06:21:59 <_3b> true, function calls seem a bit slow though :( 06:22:02 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.247.73.229] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:22:07 hehe :P 06:24:32 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:39 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Keyboard-anykey.jpg 06:25:41 -!- ejs [n=eugen@164-216-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:25:42 AHA! 06:25:44 I found it. 06:26:33 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-53.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 06:30:15 -!- phf [n=phf@pool-71-175-128-66.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 06:31:48 http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html 06:33:13 <_3b> yay, built a flash app using new code (now i just need to make it build one that actually works) 06:33:33 yay :P 06:38:53 ejs [n=eugen@164-216-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:02 <_3b> hmm, seem to have garbled the constant pool somewhere 06:45:46 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:45:49 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 06:46:54 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-53.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:51:42 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:59:30 rullie__ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 07:00:00 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:00:03 antoszka [n=antoszka@cl-142.mbx-01.si.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:33 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:05:16 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:06:00 Is there maybe a nice comparison document somewhere to help me decide which database interfacing system to use with my new project? 07:06:15 I think I'd want to use mysql or postgresql as a backend 07:06:33 but even there I'm open to suggestions 07:07:48 mmm 07:08:01 thijso: do you expect your database to hold more data than your RAM can hold? 07:08:18 <_3b> postmodern seems popular for postgres 07:09:08 sykopomp: uhm... not on this computer (my dev machine has filthy amounts of ram), but possibly later on other machines... 07:09:22 ah, alright 07:09:29 postmodern does seem popular 07:09:32 does loop have a keyword for iterating over plists? 07:09:33 I could never get elephant to run. 07:09:49 drafael: for (key value) in plist? 07:09:56 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.61.194] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:09:57 <_3b> drafael: for (a b) on plist by #'cddr ? 07:10:04 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.61.194] has joined #lisp 07:10:05 ah, right 07:10:08 thanks :) 07:10:09 wait, that's an alist... 07:10:25 *nod* 07:11:03 but there's not a handy overview of the lisp interfacing sysmtems with pros and cons somewhere on the 'net? 07:11:06 (yet) 07:11:29 s/lisp interfacing sysmtems/lisp database interfacing systems/ 07:11:31 not that I know of, and most likely nothing up to date... 07:11:50 http://www.cliki.net/database 07:11:53 there's always that page 07:13:57 msingh [n=msingh@203.171.123.8.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:15:04 Hi, i'm gettin ga Interrupt thread failed: thread #< ...> has exited. [Condition of type SB-THREAD:INTERRUPT-THREAD-ERROR] when trying to call terminate-thread on a thread. any ideas on what to do about this? 07:15:07 -!- rullie_ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:16:08 sykopomp: yeah, but that doesn't tell me why I'd want to use *this* interface if I'm trying to do something like *that* 07:16:48 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-72-52.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:18:22 http://common-lisp.net/project/clouchdb/ A -third- lib for couchdb. Fantastic. 07:18:28 elias` [n=c@host86-159-170-69.range86-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 07:19:17 I'm waiting for one that hooks directly into clustering interface 07:19:33 -!- ejs [n=eugen@164-216-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:19:35 what do you mean? 07:22:21 pierre- [n=kpierre@jabber.hsdnetwork.net] has joined #lisp 07:22:40 <_3b> hmm, it makes a file that doesn't crash the disassembler now, but still doesn't run in the player :/ 07:23:00 <_3b> wonder if i can get trace output from the 64bit flash player 07:23:27 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 07:25:10 Are there any mcclim tutorials other than the ones listed on the wiki? 07:25:24 *hefner* can't think of one 07:25:34 I've had experience with gtk and wxwindows in linux, but I can't seem to wrap my head around mcclim 07:25:43 It's... so different 07:26:07 yeah, and surprisingly, the most sane way to use it might just be to pretend it's gtk and ignore the weird bits 07:26:26 although at that point, you might as well use gtk or qt 07:26:38 ... 07:26:58 But it's _really_ different. 07:27:09 It's not that much different from a browser environment 07:27:10 unless you want to write something with the CLIM-style graphical command line, of course. then you can use all that weird stuff. 07:27:41 Phoodus: browser environment? I just want to write an application that has some gui 07:27:45 in mcclim 07:27:55 what kind of gui? 07:28:08 mcclim is at least as dynamic as making web GUI bits in a browser 07:28:22 and the throwing around of live objects has some parallel there 07:28:24 it's much more dynamic than that, in most respects. 07:28:27 To display stuff like data, and to enter some stuff like data to be used to generate the data (and live updates of calculations or so) 07:28:30 "at least as" 07:28:56 Phoodus: I don't make web gui's. I don't like them. 07:28:59 hefner: it just seems to be a suitable reference marker for poeple who don't know clim's model, afaict 07:29:20 sykopomp: couch db currently uses a REST interface. There's work done on native interface over Erlang's cluster IPC 07:29:31 sure. 07:29:45 Phoodus: Oh, maybe that's why I don't understand clim :) 07:30:29 There seems to be a philosophical difference from say gtk, qt and wxwindows on one hand, and clim on the other hand 07:30:44 Or a difference in reference frame, or mind set or whatever you want to call it 07:30:57 Well, I'll just try harder then... 07:31:52 hefner: there isn't a plotting widget for mcclim, is there? 07:32:37 Sikander: not as such, no. 07:32:48 still plotting in gnuplot... :( 07:32:59 K thanks 07:33:05 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.168.12] has joined #lisp 07:33:55 Sikander: For my plotting needs I used ploticus and had that generate a png I coulde use in mcclim. 07:34:00 bit of a pain I guess :) 07:34:57 schme: Ok, then I can do the same with gnuplot; I'm familiar with gnuplot, so it would make sense :) 07:35:37 thanks for the tip 07:37:56 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@116.18.78.13] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:39:20 Hi herbieB, Nekthuth problems again... 07:39:56 herbieB: When I use (require 'mcclim), Nekthuth seems to flip out 07:40:23 *Sikander* also flips out when doing (require 'mcclim). 07:40:51 *hefner* did sneak one very crude plotting facility into mcclim to plot a function or a vector of y values, but it doesn't bother drawing labels or anything :) 07:41:32 by the second or third time I rewrote that plotting routine, I got fed up and figured I'd just stick in the clim listener so I wouldn't lose it ;) 07:42:11 hefner: is the clim listener used for clim development as well? 07:42:33 what I mean is, if you write an arbitrary app that uses clim, do you use the clim listener? 07:43:01 Sikander: it's fairly handy for testing out drawing code, commands, or whatever. 07:43:20 hefner: ah, ok. I'll have to check that out 07:43:27 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.129.62] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:44:18 or if all you really needed was some kind of graphical medium, perhaps you can use it in lieu of an application altogether, e.g., http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/pitch-tests.jpg 07:45:18 hefner: Awesome! That's approximately what I'm looking for! 07:45:54 Wombat1 [n=willy@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:08 I ran the listener once, to see if mcclim worked, but didn't really "get" the listener per se 07:46:13 Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 07:46:53 thanks for pointing that out, hefner 07:51:01 I'd wish to have a common (sic) library that would work kinda like WPF on all interesting systems (even better, accessible not only from CL...) 07:51:41 mmm, xaml. 07:52:04 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:53:30 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-24-18-15-69.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 07:55:50 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:56 hefner: replace it with Sexps :D 07:56:34 -!- matimago [n=user@88.170.236.224] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:56:45 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:56:54 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:56:59 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:59:23 hm any recommendations for an alternative to drakma? 07:59:42 also, with WPF, windows is probably more advanced than X11 now, don't know about Aqua (OpenStep was close, don't know how simplified it is in Aqua) 08:04:14 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:04:31 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 08:05:58 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:06:15 <_3b> yay, compiles and runs now. just gotta get the color components in the right order :) 08:11:38 -!- rullie__ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:12:01 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 08:16:38 *Sikander* is frustrated by copy-pasting in X 08:16:44 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:44 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@54.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:17:47 What exactly? I quite like it 08:19:00 tcr: how do you paste stuff in an X app when you copy it from, say acroread (which uses the ctrl-c/ctrl-v and a completely different clipboard) 08:19:30 Do not use acrocread? :) 08:19:34 heheh 08:19:53 can you copy text from xpdf? 08:20:10 If it's not a bitmap pdf, sure 08:20:15 But you can also try evince 08:20:46 evince is so slow... xpdf is much faster in rendering etc. At least, last time I checked 08:20:58 and I agree, acroread sucks 08:21:27 If I want to draw in the listener, what pane do I have to draw to? 08:21:29 -!- tseug [n=tseug3@cpe-70-112-21-137.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:22:05 *standard-output* ;) 08:22:10 d'oh! 08:22:12 thanks 08:22:27 -!- A_anekos is now known as anekos 08:22:41 insane! 08:22:59 clim sounds so awesome. I should really try it sometime :) 08:24:03 I'm trying to rewrite this clim-listener::draw-function-filled-graph to be more useful, but apparently I'm too tired 08:24:05 morning 08:24:11 morning, Krystof. 08:24:14 mornin 08:24:17 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 08:25:18 danlei [n=user@pD954F2D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:25:42 [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.177] has joined #lisp 08:25:51 Erm... another question about the listener: How can you draw with coordinates relative to where you are now? Like, below the current prompt? 08:26:43 wow. Clouchdb seems pretty solid. 08:28:08 Sikander: what you probably want to do is surround your drawing to with-room-for-graphics, which will let you draw relative to the origin. it will position the result to fit. 08:29:10 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 08:29:15 hefner: Woo, great, thanks! Is there some documentation on the listener, or is this a "code is documentation" thing? 08:29:31 *sykopomp* giggles. 08:29:42 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.129.62] has joined #lisp 08:30:37 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:31:14 Sikander: there's no useful documentation for the listener beside a little readme file, but everything you need should be somewhere in http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/P-IV.html#_504 or http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/P-V.html#_756 08:31:26 clim with-room-for-graphics 08:31:27 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/15-4.html#_815 08:31:50 Thanks 08:32:10 *stassats* wants a local copy of searchable clim-spec 08:32:32 stassats: wget? ;) 08:33:13 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [] 08:33:23 i mean searchable with not grep 08:34:42 using a combination of wget, grep and sed (or maybe awk) I guess anything is possible 08:35:28 i'd rather want a sources, like with CLX manual 08:36:26 oh, neat. another bounding rectangle bug. 08:37:03 oh, no, silly me. put the border *inside* with-room-for-graphics, out around it ;) 08:37:22 ("not" around it, rather) 08:39:29 Is there a way to get a history for the prompt in the listener? I suck at typing commands apparently... 08:39:41 M-p and M-n, like the slime repl. 08:39:53 ah, the same slime repl I don't use... thanks 08:40:10 (except it decides to reprint the parsed form instead of restoring the original text, for whatever reason. grr.) 08:40:23 does the listener have a 'possible completions' thing? Last time I tried, it was like flying blind :\ 08:41:02 Sikander: are you using climacs as your main dev tool, then? :P 08:41:16 sykopomp: eh... 08:41:17 sykopomp: it pops a menu for me 08:41:19 sykopomp: vim... 08:41:39 stassats: let me reinstall climacs and try it out. 08:41:59 climacs? i thought you were talking about lisener 08:41:59 sykopomp: it does, although it's a little screwy in that it won't suggest completions until it can tell whether you've started typing a form or a command 08:42:13 I was talking about the listener 08:42:31 sykopomp said something about climacs 08:42:39 specifically, I was pretty annoyed that I couldn't get a completions list for files :\ 08:43:08 jmbr [n=jmbr@54.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 08:43:51 the clim listener sort of rocks. 08:43:56 but if I type "(draw-" and hit tab, I get a popup menu of completions. for commands and arguments, tab mysteriously doesn't work (you have to use C-/ or RMB), and you get a different style of completions printed too. strange. 08:44:08 I could get used to not writing guis, but just interact through the clim listener 08:44:29 hefner: tab in the listener? 08:44:33 *hefner* wonders how the UI got so inconsistent 08:44:49 Sikander: yeah. 08:44:54 ? 08:45:10 mmm 08:45:15 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:45:20 hefner: when I type "(draw-" I get "no completions" 08:45:30 no completions found 08:45:53 hm. (climacs:climacs) doesn't seem to work on ccl 08:45:59 hefner: there is a good reason for that, but I can't remember the specifics. 08:45:59 Sikander: what package are you in? maybe there aren't any there (but I'd be surprised, since it starts in clim-user). I'm in the clim-listener package. 08:46:18 Something about CLIM not exposing enough flexibility in handling the :possibilities, I think. 08:46:44 hefner: I was in clim-user, no completions. I just switched to clim-listener, no completions 08:46:47 sykopomp: WFM 08:47:05 maybe I have to launch the listener first or something... 08:47:16 no 08:47:21 Athas: that wouldn't surprise me. 08:47:31 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 08:47:49 stassats: you're on ccl? 08:47:56 yep 08:48:07 linux/x86? 08:48:13 -64 08:48:18 hm 08:51:12 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:51:30 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:46 ah-ha 08:51:57 so you have to do C-/ to get a completion for filepaths... 08:52:30 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 08:53:26 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 08:54:01 -!- loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.133] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:54:07 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 08:55:27 man. Climacs is nice. 08:56:15 and it properly indents loop?! 08:59:03 Purely by accident, if so. 08:59:06 IIRC, anyway. 09:00:22 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:01:56 h, moin 09:02:05 oops 09:02:08 hi, anyway 09:02:50 Hrmph... maybe I should just switch to emacs (climacs?) and leave vim. But, dammit, so many new key bindings to learn! 09:03:50 I'd think a natural project for a vim user would be to implement a super-vim in CL, but there must be some cultural difference between emacs and vim users such that the idea never takes. 09:04:28 Sikander: emacs goes easier on the learner. 09:04:29 unlikes emacs, you might even be able to do a decent job of it in a reasonable timeframe ;) 09:04:56 hefner: I thought about doing that. I then saw that there was a project called vial, which aimed to do that, but the guy who was working on it started using emacs in viper mode 09:05:24 so how do I: 1. get paredit, 2. get a better theme? ;) 09:05:41 Sikander: haha... 09:05:43 *stassats* always laughed on people using emacs in viper mode 09:06:18 The crappy thing about such a lispy vim would be that you would also want to be able to use vim scripts. Which means implementing the whole vim language 09:06:35 of which I only know enough to get stuff to work for me. 09:06:48 But maybe I should get vial and start tinkering with it 09:07:23 nah, you should start tinkering with Climacs 09:07:59 :( all those *macses 09:08:29 Does climacs have its own "slime"? 09:09:47 Sikander: it sort of -is- slime. 09:09:51 to an extent. It seems... 09:10:16 No, Climacs talks directly to the Lisp image it is running in. 09:10:23 Sikander: not in the sense of being able to connect to a remote lisp, but there are some commands for compiling files and definitions within the same lisp image. 09:10:26 That has both advantages and disadvantages. 09:11:45 Insane, climacs is really small, 89k according to portage, while emacs is 38M! 09:11:55 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-138-193-165.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:12:02 Uuuh? 09:12:05 Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:12 That cannot be true. 09:12:13 emacs includes a small city worth of kitchen sinks. 09:12:24 it's probably because elisp is in there? 09:12:42 No, I mean, even the Climacs source code is more than 89k. 09:12:48 Athas: I dunno, I just run "emerge -pv climacs" and then "emerge -pv emacs" 09:12:56 god, my climacs directory has CMUCL fasls. these must be ancient. 09:13:18 Send them to a museum! 09:14:01 uncompressed climacs is 640K 09:14:07 too late. once I delete the fasls, my climacs directory bzips down to 92K 09:14:16 it has been stored in a air tight jar so as to keep it fresh ;) 09:14:17 indeed enough for everyone 09:14:17 Yeah, I was talking about download 09:14:29 I'll give climacs a try now 09:14:41 [Blay] [n=blaay@BSN-142-173-173.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 09:14:45 of course, climacs had half its brains absorbed into mcclim. 09:14:52 (more than that, probably) 09:15:14 All its brains. 09:15:19 All that's left is glitter and makeup. 09:15:46 hefner: how do you mess around with colors? White background makes eyes burn :( 09:16:11 *Sikander* likes his terminals white on black 09:16:14 hefner from the website it sounds like it was the other way round 09:16:46 sykopomp: dunno, find the right place to sneak in a :background +black+ initarg 09:16:48 Climacs attempts to improve on the concepts found in other free Common Lisp-based emacsen,, such as Goatee (the original editor component of McCLIM) 09:17:06 hefner: wtf. It can't be changed on the fly? :| 09:17:13 Isn't the climacs:climacs-rv entry point still around? 09:17:22 *hefner* knows not. 09:17:28 It can indeed be changed on the fly (I think?), but the interface is not exposed. 09:17:35 Athas: it is 09:17:46 Athas: thank you :) 09:17:46 really? I don't think the clx backend actually honors (setf pane-background), but I could be mistaken. 09:17:49 much less eye-burny. 09:18:04 Well, Drei ignores half of that stuff anyway. 09:18:09 Or takes care of it itself. 09:18:11 plus if you change it on the fly, will it come up next time that way? 09:18:17 No. 09:18:27 (rhetorical question) ;) 09:18:35 Athas: unfortunately, tab-completion is broken on it. Oh well :) 09:18:36 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 09:18:45 Ok, I have climacs running. How do I get to the repl? 09:18:59 Sikander: I think you need to run it off the listener, and use the listener's repl. 09:19:08 Aha 09:19:16 In Climacs, it is best to use a scratch buffer. 09:19:33 run them in different threads. I'm sure they both have :new-process keywords. 09:20:01 Ok, I'm not used to this emacs thing, but I see *scratch* written so I guess I'm in the scratch buffer 09:20:20 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:22:48 You use... I think... C-x C-e to evaluate expressions. 09:22:58 And C-y C-x C-e to insert the value into the buffer. 09:23:20 Note that Climacs can handle arbitrary objects in the buffer (as long as you don't try to save it to a file), so you can easily work with them. 09:23:27 Even make new expressions out of them. 09:25:16 Athas: Well, I don't understand any of it :( Dude, where's command mode?! ;) 09:25:33 Athas: C-x C-e doesn't seem to work. 09:25:40 *Sikander* rushes off to read the documentation. 09:26:10 there's documentation? 09:26:21 sikander have you tried to open a lisp file to see if that kicks it into action :) 09:27:30 no tab completion when opening a file?! 09:27:39 Sikander: C-/ 09:28:05 Ohh, those emacsers, they have different key bindings for *everything*! 09:28:22 it -should- be tab 09:28:24 :P 09:29:09 Not in CLIM! 09:29:22 It's weird. Tab works partially, 09:29:29 OH, THAT'S REAL CUTE 09:29:41 See, that's because CLIM has a distinction between "possibilies" and "completion". 09:29:50 Which is sometimes handy, but very distracting to begin with. 09:29:59 Ah, completion is if there's only 1 possibility? 09:30:09 Yes. 09:30:19 Climacs does it differently itself. 09:30:26 It's good that the difference exists, but you want a key which is a "I don't care, just show me the money!" key 09:30:26 sykopomp pasted "noooo, my filesystem!" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81842 09:30:29 And McCLIM should really change too, that's one ancient UI convention that there's no need to keep. 09:30:30 THANK YOU CLIMACS 09:30:51 In fact, plain TAB will do smart symbol completion in Climacs, IIRC. 09:30:53 Or it should. 09:30:54 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 09:32:54 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:33:08 sykopomp: quite a herd you got there 09:33:16 ah, I read on the website that climacs can use swank, which is part of slime. But if I want slime, I also need emacs and, well, that sucks 09:33:49 Well, and it might not even work, since Climacs hasn't been properly maintained for a few months. 09:33:55 what would be the use of having climacs if it (indirectly) requires large parts of emacs?! 09:33:57 It uses internal implementation details of Swank. 09:34:13 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:34:15 ah, even better :( 09:34:18 You can run Climacs without Swank, you just won't get arglist-hinting and definition-finding. 09:34:19 swank isn't part a part of emacs 09:34:32 I think symbol-completion still works, though. 09:34:57 It's really an accident of history that Climacs uses Swank. A good project would be to fix that! 09:35:00 Not too hard either. 09:36:51 -!- msingh [n=msingh@203.171.123.8.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:36:54 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 09:37:54 Ok, I can't figure out how in climacs to get stuff evaluated 09:38:07 C-x C-e is unbound 09:38:36 You have to be in Lisp syntax. 09:38:40 I am 09:38:42 M-x Set Syntax Lisp 09:38:51 Oh, it's C-c C-e. 09:39:13 And curse whoever decided it was a good idea to make Climacs use a variable-width font by default! 09:39:19 Where do you get these magical incantations? 09:39:26 C-h m :-) 09:39:33 ... 09:39:34 I wrote some of them. 09:39:39 aha 09:39:46 But you could do C-h a evaluate. 09:40:01 C-h m doesn't work 09:40:40 We have C-h b, though! 09:40:40 I notice a strange behaviour 09:40:58 If the window of climacs is active, but the mouse isn't in it, the cursor doesn't move 09:41:18 I need to physically place my mouse in the window to get keypresses to do something 09:41:43 I suspect Krystof is able to weave a tale of suspense of magic about that quirky behaviour. 09:41:47 (I thought it was fixed anyway?) 09:41:53 that should be fixed as of a month or so ago. 09:42:34 aha 09:42:48 cvs of mcclim then 09:43:23 sykopomp: I see you haven't used anything outside Mac/Win/POSIX combo? :D 09:43:44 Athas: btw thanks for the shortcut keys. They will definately help :) 09:43:50 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 09:43:50 Always run CVS of everything! 09:44:03 Except that I think there is an odd redisplay bug in CVS Climacs... 09:44:04 just don't update it very often ;) 09:44:20 Nevermind, just be sure to have a debugger active, Climacs is robust enough to survive (some) errors. 09:45:11 Athas: What did you mean with that climacs shouldn't need to use swank? 09:45:47 Sikander: Climacs only uses Swank as a (mostly) trivial portability layer. It should not be very hard to replace Swank with something else. 09:46:13 *hefner* wonders why make-text-style converts :fix to :fixed 09:46:14 and that would be only for arglist hinting and definition finding... 09:46:27 *hefner* also wonders why this never broke mcclim-freetype in the past 09:46:31 Yes (and other stuff like that). 09:46:40 ok, thanks 09:49:01 It's not like definition finding is non-trivial. It makes a substantial proportion of sbcl's swank backend. 09:49:10 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 09:49:11 desudesud [i=desu@free.dancing.bot.at.shellium.org] has joined #lisp 09:49:45 Perhaps it should be moved in an sbcl contrib. 09:49:53 Well, thanks to all for your help. I'm off to inspect the inside of my eyelids for the night and afterwards will be playing with clim, climacs etc 09:50:13 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:50:37 -!- desu [i=desu@unaffiliated/desu] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:50:41 -!- desudesud is now known as desu 09:50:50 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@213.150.33.189] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:51:15 Ragnaroek [i=54a6758b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d96780ec1f7de234] has joined #lisp 09:52:28 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087F305.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:16 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:04:08 there, that's a little nicer: http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/screenshot/tanh.png 10:04:55 :-o 10:05:03 it's almost like drscheme! 10:05:04 :) 10:08:39 msingh [n=msingh@203.171.123.8.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:08:49 Man, I have no cool screenshots to show off. 10:09:21 hm im stuck :( how can i see the output from printing to stdout in my threads in slime/sbcl? 10:10:46 shame I don't have a good way to save those to a png file. 10:11:02 vithorn [n=vithorn@95.160.144.135] has joined #lisp 10:13:15 kpreid: Are you here? 10:13:19 (also a shame mcclim can't easily draw rotated text for the y-label) 10:13:47 Oooh, I do have a sweet screenshot: http://80.161.87.214/apache2-default/climacscompletions.png 10:13:54 That was the last Climacs thing I worked on, I think. 10:14:03 msingh: place (setf swank:*globally-redirect-io* t) into your ~/.swank.lisp 10:14:06 And it's way better than Emacs' completion buffers. 10:14:23 Nice font. 10:14:27 oh, sweet. I like that a lot better. 10:14:33 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 10:14:38 I like those a lot, yes. 10:14:54 I -really- don't like the listener's tab-completion "let's pop up a window that you have to click on" shenanigans. 10:15:02 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 10:15:11 it'd be fine, if the stupid window had some keyboard control 10:15:18 yeah 10:15:23 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@213.150.33.189] has joined #lisp 10:15:37 I wanted that for the Climacs definition window, but never got around to it. 10:15:43 although given that it now uses the list gadget, and I wrote the list gadget and didn't bother implementing keyboard controls.. oops. 10:15:49 Man, I miss hacking Lisp now. 10:16:11 I'm pretty sure the Listener uses the menu-choose functionality, which is just a table. 10:16:27 Menu-choose is such a wart. It has a billion options, but none that really matter. 10:16:36 I thought it was using the Athas trademarked FancyMenus, with label pane and list box 10:16:55 Oh, maybe I'm misremembering. 10:16:59 oh, that's not a list, that's some presentations inside a scroller. 10:17:55 clim menu-choose 10:17:56 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/25.html#_1354 10:18:59 couloir [n=chatzill@S0106001a706b09fb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:00 clim frame-manager-menu-choose 10:19:00 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/25.html#_1355 10:19:02 yeah, that's a little ridiculous. if it's expected to use a native facility, it ought to take a least common denominator approach with the args. 10:19:02 That's the one you want. 10:19:48 on the bright side, it means you can ignore the args and do something sane. 10:20:17 You know I can't do that! 10:20:34 yeah, but I still haven't worked out the reason. 10:20:54 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:28:45 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:28:47 -!- Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:36:38 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-10872.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 10:44:40 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483FC2A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:00 antoni [n=user@9.pool85-53-28.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 10:52:31 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:55:06 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 10:57:05 pekka_ [n=patric@90-230-89-60-no148.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:59:27 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 11:02:26 tcr: Yes? 11:05:30 -!- antoni [n=user@9.pool85-53-28.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:05:49 tcr, thank you! 11:10:14 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:17:19 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-72-52.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 11:21:09 ocnzhao [n=hgsghrnj@122.159.58.101] has joined #lisp 11:21:10 -!- ocnzhao [n=hgsghrnj@122.159.58.101] has left #lisp 11:21:38 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.168.12] has quit ["Beetroot"] 11:27:21 plage [n=user@118.71.57.230] has joined #lisp 11:27:24 Good evening. 11:27:52 ho 11:30:36 <[Head|Rest]>   11:31:04 Tyadyam today? 11:31:21 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@85.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 11:31:36 <[Head|Rest]> cze 11:31:45 Cze. 11:32:51 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:36:02 speaking Polish are we? 11:36:48 <[Head|Rest]>      -      :) 11:37:10 you dont like freenode? 11:37:10 :( 11:37:26 <[Head|Rest]> O.o 11:37:46 i probably got that wrong 11:37:55 cp2: no that's what he said. 11:38:02 oh, cool 11:38:23 [Head|Rest]: you can /join #lisp-ru 11:38:29 i guess going to russian class was worth it after all =P 11:38:52 or /join #lisp-pl 11:39:34 <[Head|Rest]> tnx 11:39:36 -!- msingh [n=msingh@203.171.123.8.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:39:57 [Head|Rest]: of course, the question is to find lispers available to speak in the same language. 11:39:59 I see I missed an interesting discussion about McCLIM and Climacs. 11:40:05 Oh well! 11:40:05 <[Head|Rest]> pjb: can i join #hell ? 11:40:29 I'd prefer if you converted to (car . cdr) 11:40:47 pjb: Nope, that's not what he said :) 11:40:56 antoszka: I know. 11:41:07 Ah. 11:41:38 He said he didn't like freenode because nobody spoke polish here. 11:41:54 Nope. 11:41:59 <[Head|Rest]> not actually that am said 11:42:22 What did I lost in translation? 11:42:26 Not supposed to speak polish here  they don't like it on freenode. 11:42:31 That's what he said. 11:42:37 <[Head|Rest]> yeah 11:42:54 I should revise my russian. 11:43:04 i should have paid more attention in class. 11:43:09 :) 11:43:11 Anyways, it's not frowned upon in freenode, only in specific channels. 11:43:38 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 11:48:02 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@54.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:50:47 i think frowned upon is the wrong word. its just English is the default with channels for other specific language; there can't be discussion if there isn't an accept language medium within the channel 11:51:20 hhh thought my English there could have been better :p 11:52:01 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@85.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:53:12 <[Head|Rest]> who is said word "nazzi"? O_O 11:53:43 *[Head|Rest]* .oO{ null } 11:56:23 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:58:37 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:53 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:21 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:49 Well, I'm ok with german too ;-) 12:05:46 -!- plage [n=user@118.71.57.230] has left #lisp 12:07:10 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:10:03 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Client Quit] 12:11:43 ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-150-49.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:13:12 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:20:27 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:20:49 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 12:20:53 *pem* is away: Gone away for now 12:22:25 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-066-230.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:24:19 irc_user [n=alan@n219077126031.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 12:26:32 is there a true random number generator for clisp, sbcl? 12:29:20 jmbr [n=jmbr@85.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 12:31:08 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:31:14 irc_user: don't think so 12:31:15 -!- irc_user [n=alan@n219077126031.netvigator.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:41:51 Kinda hard to make that in software. 12:43:26 there isnt a true randomg number generator in anything :) 12:44:30 I have an electron which wants to disagree with you 12:45:10 ok, in any computer software 12:46:45 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:48:34 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@23.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 12:49:48 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17ED8F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:55 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-47.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:52:22 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@85.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:52:22 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:53:21 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:54:58 schmx [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:57:53 -!- A_anekos is now known as anekos 12:58:41 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:01:12 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 13:03:01 karvus [n=thomas@ti511110a080-0924.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 13:06:50 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-104-22.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 13:17:17 KingNato [n=patno@84-217-6-4.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:40 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:47 rullie__ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:29:37 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:16 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@213.150.33.189] has quit [] 13:32:22 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.168.12] has joined #lisp 13:36:11 -!- schmx is now known as schme 13:38:09 -!- vithorn is now known as vithorn`afk 13:38:33 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:44:18 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:44:40 -!- couloir [n=chatzill@S0106001a706b09fb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit ["beep"] 13:47:59 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-2-129.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:48:01 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-10872.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 13:48:37 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-1216.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 13:50:00 birdsbite [n=user@74.196.9.26] has joined #lisp 13:51:45 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:51:59 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:52:26 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 13:55:13 *pem* is back. 13:55:37 good to know 13:56:22 -!- vithorn`afk is now known as vithorn 13:57:28 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:14 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:43 nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:49 G'morning all. 14:02:19 hi nyef 14:02:50 -!- antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has left #lisp 14:02:53 antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:10 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:11:12 -!- Bigshot_ [n=BIG_SHOT@CPE002129abc864-CM001ac35cd4d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:12:15 Would it make sense to have a GL:VERTEX function that "did the right thing" given any set of possibly-valid arguments? That is, selected the appropriate glVertex[234][sifd] function based on number of arguments passed and the type of the most precise argument passed (casing the others as needed)? 14:12:34 Yes. 14:12:46 It should of course be compiler-macroed to the specific version... 14:12:52 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@nttkyo1000205.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Tiarra 0.1+svn-11365: SIGTERM received; exit"] 14:12:54 And, of course, yes... the compiler macros. 14:13:03 Or, even better, deftransform. 14:13:37 #-sbcl (define-compiler-macro vertex ...) #+sbcl (progn (defknown vertex ...) (deftransform vertex ...)) 14:13:43 FWIW, the Haskell OpenGL binding does the same thing (well, by typeclasses), using a single function rather than making you pick the type 14:14:03 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:14:05 so its glVertex* function is indeed called "vertex" 14:14:26 AIUI, cl-opengl basically picks -one- type for their vertex wrapper. 14:15:00 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 14:15:04 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:20:30 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:30 -!- rullie__ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:20:55 MikeA [n=MikeA@cpe-76-179-203-201.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:21:18 Hey, I'm really, really new to LISP. 14:21:44 Could someone provide an example of how to compile a .lisp file into an executable on Windows with CLISP? O.O 14:22:29 Can you actually even do that, or do you need to set up a clever shortcut that passes the image from saveinitimem or whatever it's called on the command line? 14:23:39 http://preview.tinyurl.com/2vyp65 14:24:05 Hrm... That's how GL_TRIANGLE_STRIP works? 14:24:17 Where'd that blob of binary mesh data go... 14:24:24 Dunno. I just started messing with LISP yesterday night, haha. ._. 14:24:34 MikeA: http://code.google.com/p/lispbuilder/wiki/StandAloneCLISP 14:24:47 http://code.google.com/p/lispbuilder/wiki/StandAloneExecutables too 14:25:04 Thanks a TON galdor! =DD 14:25:31 happy to help :) 14:26:09 LISP seems really interesting. C++ was getting on my nerves. Half of the tutorials online are for managed C++! :S 14:28:52 indeed 14:28:59 Hrm... Guess that's not what this block is either. Oh well. 14:29:18 what format directive will let me output x number of spaces until the output is at n characters? 14:30:02 s/x/a/ 14:30:34 -!- galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["leaving"] 14:30:37 -!- jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:30:42 clhs ~T 14:30:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cfa.htm 14:31:06 galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:14 Thanks for the help guys. I might go buy a LISP book at Borders or something, for reference. 25% off today in the US, if you have the online coupon. 14:33:19 -!- MikeA [n=MikeA@cpe-76-179-203-201.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [] 14:33:42 rdad [n=rdad@cpe-67-247-62-86.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:33:49 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:34:32 jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 14:39:01 ah, perfect, thanks 14:39:33 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:18 loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.133] has joined #lisp 14:47:00 -!- dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dd3.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:49:21 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-53.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:54:36 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 15:02:41 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:09:16 there's an online coupon for lisp books? How bizarrely specific 15:12:02 might be a general coupon, I thought the majority of C++ tutorials apparently being managed more bizarre ;) 15:12:26 Guthur: maybe depends on where you look. Remember, he asked about Windows 15:13:15 hehe 15:13:28 -!- rdad [n=rdad@cpe-67-247-62-86.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 15:15:59 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 15:17:21 ya he did, would like a lisp book myself actually, they are very expensive though 15:17:49 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954F2D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Ein guter Abgang ziert die Übung."] 15:18:27 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 15:18:47 danlei [n=user@pD954F2D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:48 Guthur: i have 'LISP 3rd edition' by patrick henry watson and berthold klaus paul horn 15:19:00 its an older book 15:19:02 but its fine 15:19:28 *Guthur* checking it out :) 15:19:31 *stassats* has no lisp books on paper 15:20:05 in marco's movie, he said i'm going to call up the slime inspector and pass the package name 15:20:18 which is slime inspector? 15:20:23 *p_l* has only SICP, some *old* book on Scheme, an AutoLISP book and borrowed PAIP 15:20:28 C-c I 'common-lisp 15:20:33 stassats: i got the book for a long car ride to new jersey once 15:20:35 the one i was looking at was near $100 15:21:29 i think it was The ANSI Common Lisp Book 15:22:18 i get it now 15:22:22 *p_l* found ANSI Common Lisp accessible from yahoo server... 15:22:41 whole? 15:23:11 stassats: haven't checked, it was rather obvious that it *wasn't* supposed to be visible... 15:23:40 nope, only first two chapters now that I tried 15:24:04 Hun [n=Hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:24:34 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:24:44 p_l would you feel adverse to sharing the link, i wouldn't mind getting a taster to see if its worth the bucks 15:25:22 Guthur: http://www.paulgraham.com/acl.html 15:25:34 links to first two chapters at the bottom 15:25:35 http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/paulgraham/acl1.txt http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/paulgraham/acl2.txt 15:26:02 possibly the same, I was looking through Google 15:29:22 cheers guys. will have a look 15:29:38 joebin [n=memet@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:56 slight beginner question: I'm writing a macro to define a certain type of function 15:30:27 I'd like to be able to pass a value to the macro, say "document", and it generate a "make-document-by-id" method 15:30:35 so I have something like this: 15:30:40 mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:31:00 (defmacro make-byid-constructor (type) 15:31:00 `(defun ,(format nil "~aByID" type) (,(concatenate 'string type "ID")) 15:31:01 etc. 15:31:09 it was actually reading the lisp startup on paul grahams site that got me interested in lisp in the first place :) 15:31:31 except that when I read the macro expansion, all of the strings are surrounded by quotes... 15:31:32 like so: 15:31:42 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 15:31:55 (DEFUN "documentByID" ("documentID") 15:32:00 any way around this? 15:32:13 am I perhaps also missing the point (paradigmically =) 15:32:17 ?) 15:32:25 yes, "DOCUMENT-BY-ID" 15:32:41 and intern 15:32:43 clhs intern 15:32:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm 15:33:05 ah. I was wondering about intern, but wasn't sure. I should have tried it I guess. 15:33:20 So tell me this: when the macro is "generating" the expansion, is everything not a string? 15:33:50 no 15:34:14 everything is s-expression 15:34:23 I see. 15:34:35 so the strings are strings in s-expression notation, hence the " 15:34:38 ok, thanks. 15:35:09 " is a reader macro for strings 15:36:11 ok. one more question: 15:36:11 these interns are now outputing |documentByID| instead of documentByID 15:36:11 that's normal? 15:36:33 use "DOCUMENT-BY-ID" 15:36:49 (ok, style wise, I will) 15:36:56 but the pipe symbols? 15:37:18 the reader upcases every symbol before interning 15:37:21 that will address this too, (see upper-case) 15:37:33 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:37:43 when you manually intern, you might want to do this by yourself 15:38:02 common lisp is case sensitive, || prevents it from changing case of symbols 15:38:24 it --- reader 15:38:41 I see. 15:38:43 gotcha! 15:38:46 thanks 15:38:58 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.73.229] has joined #lisp 15:39:48 so you need (format nil "~:@(~a-by-id~)" 'document) 15:40:38 ok. one more question: 15:41:32 ',(concat type "-TYPE) yields |'DOCUMENT-TYPE| instead of 'DOCUMENT-TYPE 15:42:01 you put ' there for some reason 15:42:01 15:42:24 yes, it's supposed to be a symbol 15:42:28 class symbol 15:42:34 for a make-instance 15:42:58 (ps. the names are kinda fictitious here) 15:43:06 but yea, it would be (make-instance 'DOCUMENT-Ty 15:43:09 TYPE 15:43:18 (make-instance 'DOCUMENT-TYPE) 15:43:29 ' is a reader macros, which prevents evaluation 15:43:38 you put it inside a string for some reason 15:44:02 well, when I call make-instance, it doesn't work if I dont' 15:44:10 single quote the class name. or am I wrong about that? 15:44:46 yes, you passes it a symbol, how you obtain it --- doesn't matter 15:45:51 like (make-instance (find-symbol (format nil "~:@(~a-class~)" 'standard))) 15:45:52 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 15:45:56 (let ((foo 'some-class)) (make-instance foo)) 15:46:10 (let ((type 'document)) `',(symbolicate type '-by-id)) => 'DOCUMENT-BY-ID ;; SYMBOLICATE is from Alexandria .. but anyway 15:46:51 note, that since you already have your class name interned, you can use FIND-SYMBOLL 15:46:58 I'm starting to see the pattern emerging here =) 15:47:05 but don't forget to pass the right package 15:47:31 ..if type is a string (but should it be?), then go from string->upcase->symbol by ways of intern (or perhaps read-from-string) .. (read-from-string "document") => DOCUMENT (intern (string-upcase "document")) => DOCUMENT 15:47:36 kpreid: Did you write your implementation of E to compile down to Common Lisp? Did you reuse SBCL's runtime? 15:47:43 -!- pierre- [n=kpierre@jabber.hsdnetwork.net] has left #lisp 15:47:48 joebin: make-instance is no special form. it's completely unlike `new' in java/c++ ;) 15:48:29 ok, thanks everyone. Must run off to errand. But this has cleared up much 15:48:37 -!- joebin [n=memet@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [] 15:48:49 tcr: yes, it compiles to CL. it is not SBCL-specific. 15:49:15 (I do use some deftransforms for optimization (not as much as I'd like) but optionally) 15:49:33 How do you handle backtraces? 15:49:58 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.247.73.229] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:49:59 I dump 'em raw for the most part. 15:50:10 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:50:14 I have a prettifier for when I needed to generate a specific trace format...moment. 15:50:19 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:50:39 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:50 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-11-31.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:51:21 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-2-129.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:52:23 kpreid pasted "backtrace munger from EoCL (for tcr)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81848 15:52:28 BobMcTAL [n=The_Flam@92.9.234.182] has joined #lisp 15:52:57 tcr: that's it. eventually I'll robustify that and use it to generate relatively-user-friendly-to-the-E-user backtraces... 15:53:49 lolsuper_ [n=super@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 15:54:13 kpreid annotated #81848 "support data" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81848#1 15:54:15 Do you reason about the E source? 15:54:52 In what context? The compiler does some very simple simplifications before and after converting to CL... 15:56:48 Well I just wonder, it's very easy with CL to write a foo into CL translator. But when it comes down to a foo into machine-code compiler, people tend to leave CL and then do it in C. 15:58:20 morning 15:59:18 tcr: well, I have no desire to touch machine code and invent my own runtime. I'll leave that to certain other people :-) 15:59:47 EoCL is half a prototyping platform 16:00:19 ,EoCL 16:00:37 hm, wrong channel for that 16:00:48 kpreid: You know that the direct predecessor of ECL was called EoCL? 16:00:58 No... 16:01:32 that's just the shorthand anyway :) the real name is e-on-cl or E on Common Lisp depending on how verbose I'm being 16:01:59 just got an error message that use-package parenscript causes a name conflict in my package between the symbols ironclad:null and common-lisp:null. Any ideas? 16:02:49 unixSnob [n=jj@starfury.spearlink.com] has joined #lisp 16:05:09 Actually I was wrong it was named ECoLisp 16:05:34 wol: You have to :shadow one, either ironclad:null, or common-lisp:null 16:05:59 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-208-99.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 16:06:29 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-111.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:08:18 seems to be a shadow issue. Why would someone shadow NULL? 16:10:22 wol: I do not know why ironclad does it, presumably it has a good reason. 16:10:41 wol: Perhaps you do not want to :use :ironclad in your defpackage form, but refer to its symbol explicitly 16:10:47 by using ironclad:foo 16:10:57 I have that problem in one of my defsystem's, but I haven't tracked it down yet. 16:11:23 nothing breaks when you resolve the conflict by choosing NULL from the CL package. 16:11:55 i think it's a bug in ironclad. 16:11:58 Ironclad shadows cl:null so that it can define a cipher named null. 16:12:04 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:12:12 ahh 16:12:19 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:12:21 Which, I vaguely recall, is conventional crypto terminology, so there is justification. 16:13:15 Or maybe froydnj did it just to give people some practice in using shadowing. :-) 16:14:38 it is a pain in the ass, though. 16:15:18 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 16:18:38 *pem* is away: Gone away for now 16:25:11 -!- v0|d [n=core@a.ns.core.gen.tr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:25:32 it worked - in both senses. 16:28:07 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:30:10 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:34:10 saikat_ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 16:36:47 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 16:38:53 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:43:21 Heh. "If you trust the floating-point unit on your machine to do this right, the authors have a bridge they'd like to sell you..." 16:43:42 nyef: what's that from? :) 16:43:52 The OpenGL red book, apparently. 16:44:33 what's "this"? 16:44:36 Chapter two, in the section "Some Hints for Building Polygonal Models of Surfaces". 16:45:10 Compute the sine and cosine of (/ (* 2 pi edges) edges) the same as the sine and cosine of 0. 16:45:15 -!- loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.133] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:47:03 milanj [n=milan@212.200.194.45] has joined #lisp 16:47:13 Why does this line fail => (progn (switch-to-buffer "*pwsafe*") (search-forward "username" nil nil 1)) 16:47:36 I simply want it to search for the string "username" in the buffer *pwsafe* 16:47:37 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 16:47:43 *unixSnob* is new to lisp 16:47:45 because it's #emacs is not here? 16:47:51 s/it's// 16:48:09 huh? 16:48:09 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:48:14 unixSnob: You want with-current-buffer, but yeah better ask in #emacs 16:48:15 this channel needs a huge warning sign about not being about emacs lisp 16:48:21 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [] 16:48:29 (or autolisp) 16:48:30 k thanks 16:48:48 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:48:56 Autolisp is for designing vehicles, isn't it? 16:49:10 GMail has decided that when I'm reading hunchentoot mailing list mails, I would probably like to view ads for AutoLisp products :) 16:49:44 rsynnott: Yes, because the ads are sold on the "lisp" keyword. 16:49:51 yep 16:50:12 It doesn't help that there's no "ban ads with this keyword" option on the publisher side either. 16:50:15 I suppose there's no other lisp product anyone would want to advertise 16:50:32 secret weapon 16:50:43 Franz and Lispworks hardly HAVE to 16:51:00 There are, but there are more people selling various autolisp things than commonlisp things. 16:51:39 Thus the ad market is completely saturated with junk, thus the people selling commonlisp things don't even bother trying that channel most of the time, since they know that the targeting is so bad... 16:52:01 I do wonder why anyone even bothers for this sort of thing 16:52:05 I suppose it's cheap 16:52:22 but 90% of those autolisp ads are probably appearing on CL-related stuff 16:52:28 irc_user [n=alan@pcd335056.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 16:52:32 And if they'd just have a ban-by-keyword option in the publisher controls it'd clear up fairly quickly as the commonlisp content publishers would slap an autolisp ban on and start getting more relevant ads. 16:53:08 As it is, they either live with the lousy conversion or they move to a different advertising solution. 16:53:13 (though it could be worse; anyone trying to advertise an io (langage) product would be in trouble :) 16:53:26 Mmm... Too many articles about the moon instead. 16:53:38 or input/output 16:53:49 arc would have similar troubles 16:53:50 Now, see, that killed it. 16:54:09 have any of you guys used arc yet? 16:54:11 really surprised that Google hasn't done more to allow people to deal with multi-meaning words 16:54:15 The humour was that the moon would -also- be sufficiently rare to have the same problem. 16:54:23 :) 16:54:38 Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.71.10] has joined #lisp 16:54:41 *rsynnott* somehow doubts that anyone advertises anything to do with jovian moons 16:54:50 Exactly! 16:55:33 especially io; someone might conceivably do a buy-land-on-mars type scam for one of the others, but Io would be undesirable :) 16:55:39 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:56:16 Fade: reading the introductory text was enough to put me off 16:56:36 yeah, everyone's advertising greek mythology 16:57:00 I went so far as to get it running in plt, but the bizarre (= ..) assignment syntax kind of freaked me out. 17:02:02 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.177] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:10:09 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-066-230.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:20:48 saikat__ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 17:25:53 ruediger_ [n=ruediger@62-47-159-18.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:28:52 -!- BobMcTAL [n=The_Flam@92.9.234.182] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:30:17 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-150-49.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:31:26 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 17:35:04 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.194.45] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:37:47 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:37:49 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-11-31.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:38:04 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-11-31.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:38:42 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:00 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-26-118.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:39:22 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:41 [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.177] has joined #lisp 17:40:44 milanj [n=milan@93.87.167.20] has joined #lisp 17:43:34 aquateen [n=chris@c-24-18-15-69.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:36 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-24-18-15-69.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:46:47 xyz [n=divz@117.98.176.42] has joined #lisp 17:47:52 hello can anyone tell me how to access a xml-rpc-struct object returnred 17:48:41 nurv [n=askmefor@cidhcp132.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 17:52:41 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:42 nurv101 [n=askmefor@cidhcp132.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 17:52:44 -!- nurv [n=askmefor@cidhcp132.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:52:44 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@cidhcp132.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:57:09 bobf_ [n=bob@host86-168-121-19.range86-168.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:58:57 -!- irc_user [n=alan@pcd335056.netvigator.com] has left #lisp 17:59:40 matley [n=matley@93.68.242.36] has joined #lisp 18:00:19 jao [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:33 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-201-17-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 18:06:50 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-235-40.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:06:55 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-204-37-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:07:37 jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:07:42 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:08:08 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:09:22 pierre- [n=kpierre@jabber.hsdnetwork.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:05 paw [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 18:10:09 sayyestolife_ [n=sayyesto@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 18:10:20 greetings 18:10:39 Hello? 18:11:21 I'm doing some renaming of a couple of functions; and I'm wondering if I'm going about this the right way 18:11:42 for example I'd like to use (equal? item1 item2) instead of (eql item1 item2) 18:11:55 ugh 18:11:56 (defun equal? (item1 item2) 18:11:56 (eql item1 item2)) should work right? 18:12:07 -!- unixSnob [n=jj@starfury.spearlink.com] has left #lisp 18:12:10 "don't do this" 18:12:19 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:12:37 :/ it's alot more readable to me 18:13:03 sayyestolife_: Atleast name it eql? 18:13:24 schme, I suppose I could do that 18:13:26 if you are the only one who will be reading your code? 18:13:48 and "if you want scheme, you know where to get it" 18:13:54 sayyestolife_: Or do you plan on doing (defun eql? (item1 item2) (equal item1 item2)) ? (: 18:14:17 ah, heh, good point 18:19:03 -!- vithorn [n=vithorn@95.160.144.135] has quit ["BitchX-1.1-final -- just do it."] 18:22:52 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:44 -!- bobf_ is now known as bobf 18:28:43 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1DAD9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:20 -!- Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.71.10] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:30:21 imho renaming eql to equal? is not a good use of effort, verbose code isn't as useful as you might think, they tried it with COBOL and a worse language you will be hard pressed to fine :) 18:30:27 s/fine/find 18:35:09 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.129.62] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:36:25 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.129.62] has joined #lisp 18:36:56 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.129.62] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 18:37:00 Guthur: the main point is that there's both `eql' and `equal' in CL, and they're different 18:37:22 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:37:25 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.129.62] has joined #lisp 18:37:29 k 18:38:02 oops :) what i meant to say was that in relation to readability i don't think much is gained, which was the OP's original objective 18:38:29 eql actually sounds the same as equal when you pronounce the letters :) 18:39:14 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 18:39:36 nurv101 [n=nurv101@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 18:42:15 readability is a matter of habit, more you read it, more readable it becomes 18:42:17 jmbr__ [n=jmbr@120.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:42:42 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-11-31.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:42:48 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-11-31.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:43:29 -!- prxq [n=mommer@g230130128.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:43:50 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 18:45:17 well, perhaps one can measure it with EEG 18:46:20 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.129.62] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:46:49 stassats you mean this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroencephalography ;) 18:47:06 yes 18:48:18 if only it was possible to program with that, though i have the thought that a brain computer interface of some kind isn't to far away 18:48:30 they have toys that use theta waves i believe 18:49:07 i think it might be just a matter of training for a simple version 18:49:14 a colleague in my research lab is working on brain-computer interfaces for music composition 18:49:43 well tell me to hurry his ass up, i'm sick of typing :p 18:49:57 We have working brain-linked keyboards, brainwave mapping systems are used for coordination of brain's regeneration... 18:49:58 *stassats* can compose noise-music with EEG too 18:50:04 *hefner* wonders if a hand and mouse count as a brain-computer interface 18:50:05 though i think i will still use my fingers for guitar 18:50:14 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:44 hefner: yes, through a lot of bad abstractions. Keyboard is better :P 18:53:21 i don't even think it even has to have to many signal differentiations, bi-directional, and select would be nearly enough for simple transversal, the speed could make up for simplicity 18:53:27 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 18:54:06 but i only gave it a passing thought, so... 18:54:15 pun unintended :p 18:56:52 antoszka [n=antoszka@cl-142.mbx-01.si.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:24 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:58:28 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 18:58:38 hooking up directly to brain instead of reacting to mapped brainwaves will make it much easier 18:58:46 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@23.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:59:50 hhh according to that wiki entry DARPA are looking into it as of this year, for battlefield comms 19:00:40 you know, if we all stop fighting we are screwed, nothing will be invented anymore :p 19:00:56 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.125.195] has joined #lisp 19:01:00 I doub't that's a realistic concern at this point. 19:01:14 ... "doub't"? Where'd -that- come from? 19:01:44 *stassats* recently saw a movie trailer about something brain controlled 19:01:47 your brain finger interface broke down 19:01:59 (Best guess, the rule for "don't think" fired at the same time as the one for "doubt".) 19:03:05 stassats, maybe hollywood is where darpa test's it's kit 19:03:15 tests 19:03:23 "its", as well, btw. 19:03:42 no it's for ownership i thought 19:04:03 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:04:13 minion: thwap? 19:04:14 thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 19:04:18 could be wrong, English is not my forte 19:04:49 its/it's rules are very simple 19:04:53 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:05:24 "It's 'its', except where it's 'it is'." 19:05:37 the thing to remember is that "its" is like "his", and "it's" has the contraction 's, not the possessive 's 19:05:50 but it would definitely be DARPA's 19:06:35 Guthur: Actually, I'm worried that when we remove "fighting", we might accidentially remove "competition" etc. and kill the species 19:06:41 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:06:56 p_l we need aliens :p 19:07:23 probably get our backsides whipped though 19:07:44 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:08:11 Given that said aliens would need to make there way -here-, we almost certainly would. After all, we can't get -there-, whevever there is, with our technology... 19:08:12 Guthur: Not necessary aliens, but I believe we might be getting overdue for migration instead of patching ;-) 19:08:50 I'd like to see someone get sandboxing working right, really. 19:09:07 I bet the aliens have. 19:09:39 nyef: sandboxing as in what? :) 19:09:53 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.168.12] has quit ["Log this!"] 19:10:39 p_l: As in a completely segmented-off environment that is capable of maintaining itself without breaking down over the mid-to-long term. 19:10:51 i have a directory on my web space called sandbox, does that count :p 19:11:18 can you put aliens into it? 19:11:46 If we can't maintain a livable environment in a sealed building, however large or small, including food production, how the heck can we expect to migrate elsewhere? 19:11:49 you know i don't think i've ever tried. I only wish i could run lisp in it :| 19:12:12 nyef: I thought of migrating from "homo sapiens sapiens" ;-) 19:12:23 just wrote the first line of my lisp server though ;) 19:12:48 that's easy: (asdf:load-system :hunchentoot) 19:12:48 well too if you include the usocket loading 19:12:50 p_l: To... "homo sapiens sapiens sapiens"? 19:12:54 s/too/two 19:13:15 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-63-99.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:13:25 nyef: I dunno If my idea would leave me in "homo", not to mention "homo sapiens" 19:13:27 stassats, i'm going to have to check that, and if you have destroyed my project i will be sad :| 19:13:43 p_l: Dalek sapiens? 19:15:00 ahahahaha 19:17:16 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:17:40 umm hunchentoot sounds good, all the cool stuff has been made :|, I suppose I could make a non HTTP server, not like its going to be used anyway 19:18:25 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:34 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:51 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:54 KingNato_ [n=patno@84-217-14-14.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:22 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:24:28 -!- matley [n=matley@93.68.242.36] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:24:43 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:50 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:26:30 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:29:47 -!- KingNato [n=patno@84-217-6-4.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:29:50 -!- pierre- [n=kpierre@jabber.hsdnetwork.net] has left #lisp 19:33:58 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:34:59 hein01 [n=hein01@vc-41-23-89-181.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:37:55 -!- hein01 [n=hein01@vc-41-23-89-181.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Client Quit] 19:38:34 Guthur: don't be so sure. a small LDAP server would be nice, for instance 19:39:49 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.177] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:41:51 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:55 fe[nl]ix hhh thanks, i was getting very depressed at the thought of nothing to make ;) 19:44:06 X-Scale2 [i=email@89.180.196.113] has joined #lisp 19:44:14 there is trivial-LDAP though :| 19:45:14 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:45:15 its at beta stage, http://www.cl-user.net/asp/libs/trivial-ldap 19:45:35 that's only a client 19:46:10 jmbr___ [n=jmbr@227.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:46:23 hasn't been updated in quite some time either 19:46:26 2 years now 19:46:44 well the page anyway 19:47:43 i will look into it more, sounds interesting enough 19:55:07 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-066-230.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:59 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:59:15 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 20:00:57 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89-180-130-239.net.novis.pt] has quit [Success] 20:01:39 -!- jmbr__ [n=jmbr@120.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:03:21 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:15 -!- X-Scale2 is now known as X-Scale 20:06:42 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 20:15:15 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-1-16.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:17:49 Guthur: I think we need more apps (or modular app components) built on top of hunchentoot, rather than another http server. it would be cool to have a imap/smtp interface using mel-base. 20:18:07 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:18:46 -!- sayyestolife_ [n=sayyesto@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:18:57 -!- KingNato_ [n=patno@84-217-14-14.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [] 20:22:29 segv [n=mb@p4FC1C8A4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:41 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 20:26:44 hi guys; I have a problem with cffi 20:27:02 I read a foreign value of type :uint8 20:27:21 and when I use CASE to compare it with lisp integers, it doesn't work 20:27:28 while it works with EQ 20:27:35 knobo [n=user@216-55-7.100710.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 20:27:36 is there something special I should do with case ? 20:27:48 How is parenscript dealing with upper and lower case functions? 20:28:02 u/l case function names 20:29:28 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:04 galdor: try using cond instead? Not really a solution, I know. 20:30:19 No guesses please. 20:30:29 that's not a guess, it's a workaround. 20:30:31 Ralith: I can try, but it would be really messy 20:30:47 I wouldn't call it *really* messy, but w/e 20:31:22 galdor: does it work with EQL? 20:32:13 stassats: it does 20:32:59 slyrus_ thanks for the suggestion, it is very welcome. I am really interested in networking but I need something to build 20:33:37 Ralith: CASE compares by EQ itself. 20:34:02 tcr: okay? 20:34:24 tcr: not EQL? 20:34:27 kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:27 actually by eql 20:34:31 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a6758b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d96780ec1f7de234] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 20:34:36 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has left #lisp 20:35:28 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.110.29] has joined #lisp 20:37:24 just tested, it also works with COND + EQ 20:37:47 so, paste your code? 20:38:01 tcr: see? functional workaround. 20:38:01 <_3b> you are putting actual numbers in the CASE, not symbols, right? 20:39:01 _3b: mhh... constants 20:39:09 Ralith: Congratulations. 20:39:19 -!- benny [n=benny@77-23-213-57-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:39:21 <_3b> CASE doesn't evaluate them, try #.constant instead of constant 20:39:42 <_3b> (assuming they have been defined by READ time) 20:39:43 _3b: oh you're right 20:39:46 it works now 20:40:30 galdor pasted "case" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81855 20:41:18 isn't that a bit clumsy to have to use #. to use constants in case ? 20:41:41 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-69-251.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:41:44 i'd be curious to know why you can't use directly constants in them 20:42:09 Because CASE does not evaluates the clause keys 20:43:02 ok, but is there a reason not to ? 20:43:31 the same reason that you don't have in other languages a set of switch/case keys that are variable 20:43:33 <_3b> presumably so that they can require the keys to be constant without having to distinguish constants from non-constants 20:43:54 galdor: Yes so every key is known at compile time 20:44:04 mhh that's a pity, since I don't like to use magic values 20:44:07 so I use a lot defconstant 20:44:35 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:44:42 maybe you should be using symbols instead of your magic values? 20:45:10 no need for (defconstant +my-named-thing+ 17) if you can used :my-named-thing everywhere instead 20:45:25 (not necessarily, but...) 20:45:31 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:45:50 yep, but in that case, where constants are integers used in a foreign library, I don't think I have a choice 20:45:55 Krystof: They probably come from C, so for that to work he'd need a marshalling layer around the C functions 20:46:10 <_3b> galdor: cffi:defcenum ? 20:47:05 _3b: mhh 20:47:13 didn't think about that one 20:47:19 gonna give it a try, thank you 20:47:45 maybe just use sdl:with-events ? 20:48:09 http://lispbuilder.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/documentation/lispbuilder-sdl.html#with-events 20:48:57 stassats: I'm not using lispbuilder (it doesn't compile), it's a small layer I've programmed 20:49:01 make me learn cffi :) 20:49:09 *makes sorry 20:49:16 (english isn't my mother language) 20:49:34 simply because it doesn't compile? 20:50:02 stassats: it's one of the reasons 20:50:28 the main one is that when I learn a language, I don't like using too much libraries 20:50:48 learning cffi will be useful anyway so... 20:51:08 NIH-syndrome? 20:51:30 -!- [Blay] [n=blaay@BSN-142-173-173.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:51:42 refrain from using libraries in CL and you'll get annoyed at ever getting anything done 20:51:49 stassats: I confess it's one of my defects 20:52:04 dys` [n=andreas@p5B31441C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:53 kpreid: I use several one, like cl-ppcre, postmodern, or cl-cairo2 20:53:03 I just like to learn new things, try my own way, etc. 20:56:14 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 20:57:58 -!- scode_ [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:58:03 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B31652C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:58:07 scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 20:59:15 Can I somehow get DISASSEMBLE to also show the disassembly of lambda functions appearing in the source? 21:00:06 _3b: works perfectly with defcenum, thank you! 21:00:23 hey leo: A nice wordpress theme? 21:03:50 -!- JAS4151 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 21:04:14 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:17 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear to be bright. Until you hear them speak."] 21:06:00 -!- scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit ["restart irssi"] 21:06:06 scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 21:06:56 Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:07:05 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:08:54 -!- scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Client Quit] 21:13:56 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 21:14:28 antoni [n=user@96.pool85-53-26.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 21:15:07 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:15:10 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-178-146.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:28 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["leaving"] 21:19:24 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:19:30 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:21:40 aha.. *upper* 21:21:42 -!- Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:29:42 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 21:30:56 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:32:21 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Success] 21:33:05 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:34:17 scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 21:37:27 dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dd3.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 21:37:32 dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-198-84.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:39 This does obviusly not work (ps:ps (*yui* ,(json:encode-json '((:base . 123) (:timeout . 10000))))) 21:37:51 disumu [n=disumu@p54BCC09F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:02 Anyone know how to do what I'm trying to do? 21:38:07 where's backquote? 21:38:10 -!- mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:38:29 sorry.. 21:38:37 This does obviusly not work (ps:ps (*yui* (json:encode-json '((:base . 123) (:timeout . 10000))))) 21:38:47 forget about that comma. it was missplaced 21:40:31 I think the solution is to not use cl-json... 21:40:42 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:41:18 what's that piece supposed to do? 21:41:27 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 21:41:54 set variable *yui* to some result? 21:42:01 stassats: sorry again. I said earlier that I was using parenscript 21:42:06 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:42:13 I should go to bed. 21:42:45 i see that you use parenscript 21:42:45 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:43:12 knobo: you probably want ps:ps* 21:43:19 hefner: you mentioned you've used cl-irc beforehow does one deconstruct a message? 21:43:25 (assuming that's what used to be called js:js*) 21:44:23 Ralith: how do you mean? (and I probably won't remember) 21:44:28 I'm on my way no :)... (ps:ps (let ((yui (*yui* (create :base 123 :timeout 10000)))) (yui.use ( (lambda () ))))) 21:44:52 hefner: I'm hoping you'll remember because it's fairly fundemental to doing something useful. I mean, extracting (for example) the text of a PRIVMSG. 21:45:14 and ps* is a good suggesion 21:45:41 Ralith: Have a look at the cliki-bot example? 21:45:41 Ralith: the example code that comes with cl-irc covers that case, does it not? 21:45:52 there's example code? 21:45:58 *Ralith* hasn't found anything but the user-guide.txt which is very sparse. 21:46:19 my copy has an example/ directory.. 21:46:21 nyef: I'll see if I can find that 21:46:28 ...I didn't see that! 21:46:41 thanks. 21:46:49 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-4-35.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 21:47:24 Ralith: there is this command .. `ls` under unix... it shows you the contents of a directory... try 'man ls' for more info ;) 21:47:30 :P 21:47:46 'twas lost amidst all the other stuff. 21:48:17 ahah! arguments. 21:50:47 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 21:52:05 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:47 -!- A_anekos is now known as anekos 21:52:55 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-066-230.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:53:18 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-154-106.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 21:54:41 Bigshot_ [n=BIG_SHOT@CPE002129abc864-CM001ac35cd4d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:55:12 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.167.20] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:55:26 which shortcut key will complete the self-defined function in slime? TAB doesn't work 21:56:01 is there any site with good amount of clisp programs to learn? 21:56:12 TAB will complete over interned symbols 21:56:24 and others? 21:56:26 Bigshot_: C-/ does something, i'm hearing 21:57:18 Bigshot_: you don't need others, if your function is defined, then its name is interned 21:57:21 Bigshot_: M-tab 21:57:33 Bigshot_: or just tab when in the repl 21:58:09 Bigshot_: be aware that you have to have compiled the code before you can use it. 21:58:32 yep 21:58:57 (C-c C-c to compile whatever point is in, C-c C-k to compile the whole file) 21:59:05 how to choose the options we get with keyboard -- i have to use mouse complete 21:59:28 C-n / C-p 21:59:34 i guess 21:59:45 type enough letters to disambiguate then press tab again 21:59:48 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 22:00:04 (up/down arrows would work too) 22:00:46 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@adsl-89-134-0-9.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 22:01:48 Is there anything like haskell's _ for defining a function that accepts an argument but doesn't use it? 22:02:00 clhs ignore 22:02:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_ignore.htm 22:02:07 (lambda (argument) (declare (ignore argument))) 22:02:08 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:02:19 cool, thanks 22:03:20 yay, no more style warnings 22:04:32 how can i increase the height of "output" window? it has bearly one line of height 22:05:11 you mean mini-buffer? 22:05:41 one that displays when we press C-M-x 22:06:18 parolang` [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:29 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:29 it's not supposed for large amounts of information 22:06:45 how to display multiple output then 22:07:00 in the REPL 22:07:01 i mean more than one line of output 22:07:45 teilzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@p5B17C728.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:15 how to start REPL? 22:08:22 M-x slime 22:08:30 (you already started one) 22:08:51 C-c C-z will jump you into it 22:09:08 (does he have the slime-repl contrib loaded?) 22:09:10 stassats: the contribification of slime-repl has been reverted? 22:09:38 pkhuong: it was enabled in the config i've seen 22:10:05 -!- parolang` [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:10:06 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6E9F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:07 I get CL-USER> but that's the interpreter - how to tell it to evaluate whole code? 22:10:29 type code there 22:10:43 Bigshot_: can i suggest a book on lisp and the slime manual as a better way to learn than asking blind questions of #lisp'ers? 22:10:51 you define functions in your files, and then call it from the REPL 22:10:53 sure 22:11:06 minion: tell Bigshot_ about pcl 22:11:08 Bigshot_: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 22:11:18 minion: slime? 22:11:19 slime: SLIME is the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/slime 22:11:23 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 22:12:21 call it from REPL which command would do that? 22:12:21 Bigshot_: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/ <---- an excellent source of information about SLIME 22:12:34 Bigshot_: the one you defined 22:12:55 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:13:03 like (your-function "some-string") 22:13:04 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:08 minion: tell Bigshot_ about slime.mov 22:13:09 Bigshot_: look at slime.mov: "using SLIME" video by Marco Baringer, http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 22:13:35 wow drewc is the master of lisp 22:13:52 doesn't like trivial questions ;-) 22:14:03 antoni` [n=user@96.pool85-53-26.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 22:14:11 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p54BCC09F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:14:13 -!- antoni` [n=user@96.pool85-53-26.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:14:13 -!- antoni [n=user@96.pool85-53-26.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:14:13 hardly ... I just know how to RTFM. 22:14:20 actually, doc/ directory in slime is a better source 22:14:30 but compiling it on windows wouldn't be easy, i guess 22:15:16 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-42-169.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:15:47 -!- dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-198-84.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:16:07 stassats: Clearly, you need to fix this by rewriting all of the tools required in Lisp. :-P 22:16:15 LispTeX :D 22:16:44 *drewc* mumbles something about gigamonkey-markup 22:16:54 well, there are some lisp typesetting systems 22:17:03 do they compare to TeX? 22:17:35 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-4-35.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:49 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:17:52 well, they probably won't run in 32k RAM and the authors won't pay you to find bugs :P 22:18:15 heh 22:18:39 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:19:19 Ralith: i've used gigamonkey-markup with reasonable success. He did publish a book using it, so there is some merit there. 22:19:46 he still uses LaTeX, though, iirc. 22:19:57 so at best it's not a replacement 22:20:05 does he now? where? 22:20:15 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:19 talked to him about it here a while back 22:20:25 dunno if it's mentioned anywhere permanent 22:20:26 -!- dys` is now known as dys 22:20:30 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 22:20:38 for Coders at work, i guess 22:20:41 *Ralith* makes a note to look into it, anyway 22:20:47 for some book. 22:20:58 gigamonk`: confirm or deny? :P 22:21:06 he was trying to get the publisher to use LaTeX but they wanted a word doc from him 22:21:34 well, apress wanted a word doc too, but he used gm-markup and generated an RTF 22:21:43 (is coders at work apress as well?) 22:21:52 *Ralith* shrugs 22:22:07 iirc he did mention something about having gone via rtf in the past 22:22:28 drewc: yes 22:22:29 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:22:38 speculative, all of this. the one of many primates will let us know at some point :D 22:24:10 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17ED8F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 22:24:31 yeah, gigamonkey-markup doesn't look anything like LaTeX. 22:24:36 perhaps they'd prefer troff. 22:24:51 *Ralith* has always been vaguely interested in learning troff 22:25:03 disumu [n=disumu@p54BCC09F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:31 it's got TeX-like markup mixed with outline-mode basically... it's a sexp based markup with TeX-ish syntax, extensible in CL. 22:25:53 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:26:19 cl-typesetting is another option, i've used it with cl-pdf in the past. 22:28:03 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:28:15 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:28:40 and you also can fetch your Symbolics and use Concordia 22:29:38 that's a good point ... at a lispvan someone had genera running on an Asus Eee.... portable lisp machine! 22:29:53 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-11-31.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:29:53 that'd be awesome 22:30:28 drewc: do you have any url/keyword for setting that kind of stuff up? 22:30:43 http://google.com/ 22:30:52 *guaqua* loves the way lisp world and its holistic solutions 22:31:09 and an extra verb there somewhere 22:31:19 stassats: now thank you stassats 22:31:36 Keene's book was typesetted in Concordia 22:31:43 it shows 22:31:43 I have been searching for a good info format cl doc. It looks like the only source is ansi c l draft (dpans or gcl). Do you know about something else? 22:31:49 guaqua: you are welcome 22:32:18 stassats: now, can you provide me with some useful input for google. there was an actual reason for the question of keywords 22:32:24 guaqua: the info on google is more then enough, assuming you own or can aquire a copy of genera 22:32:57 leo2007: CLHS 22:32:58 leo2007: what could possibly be better than dpans? 22:33:10 oh, i missed "info format" 22:33:16 drewc: cltl 22:33:31 well, html in emacs-w3m is good enough for me 22:33:36 I have html version of clhs and cltl already 22:33:53 open genera would have been the keyword, but thanks anyway 22:33:59 stassats: the navigation in info is superior 22:34:52 true lispers know chapters by numbers 22:35:00 for example, karl berry prepare an info format for latex2e, it has been valuable for me for working with LaTeX 22:35:05 *drewc* uses l1sp.org for documentation when it's not something that's in the hyperspec. 22:35:29 besides that , C-c C-d h innit? 22:36:40 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B31441C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:37:48 (all that is only if M-. left me scratchin me head) 22:39:03 drewc: I am using all of those features thanks to slime ;) 22:39:09 phf [n=phf@pool-71-175-128-66.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:47 dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-198-84.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:10 merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:34 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:41:53 drewc: Genera on Asus Eeee? 22:42:22 I thought genera needed a x64 machine. 22:42:27 p_l: i might not have been an Eee .. it was some tiny pc ... 22:42:28 drewc: I wonder which Eeee has 64bit Atom 22:42:42 I don't think there are 64bit atoms, as yet 22:42:47 snap4 requires 64bit machine - the binaries are not built for any other 22:42:49 rsynnott: there are 22:42:52 it might have been an ultraportable 22:42:53 hold on, i'll see if i can find the slides from the meeting .. i could be wrong... there was cider involved. 22:42:56 are there? 22:43:05 rsynnott: yeah, some of the dual core models 22:43:14 oh, so there are; I missed that 22:43:30 still, they are 1995 design :P 22:44:12 atom? 22:44:32 isn't it P6 derived? 22:44:35 nope 22:44:38 it's P54 22:44:45 aka old, good Pentium 22:44:52 oh, right, hadn't realised that 22:45:04 that's how they got that low power consumption 22:45:12 rsynnott: no, dual issue, in order, and SMT sprinkled to make up for the lack of OOO. 22:45:34 *hefner* recalls the original Pentium was famed for its low heat dissipation and power consumption. 22:45:43 hmm, aren't the next-gen arms going OOO? 22:46:05 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483FC2A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:46:09 yeah, the first Atom models were afaik nearly exact replica of P54C with SSE and NetBurst bus 22:46:16 rsynnott: some might have already gone 22:46:26 (the current state-of-the-art one being actually used is dual issue in order as well) 22:46:40 that's the one in the new iphone and palm pre; it's rare so far 22:46:56 there is certainly a next-gen one, but it seems like it'll be ea while before it makes it to real products 22:47:04 rsynnott: it might be related to the fact that they have to fit in a SoC 22:47:24 in-order takes definitely less space than multi-issue ooo 22:48:16 hmm, I'm trying to find a project with movitz 22:48:36 ah, yep, the cortex A-9 is out of order, but no-one seems to be using it for anything yet 22:48:58 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.250.242] has joined #lisp 22:49:16 rsynnott: It's available on boards - it probably gets use in some multimedia-heavy stuff 22:49:59 TI seems about to bring out a chipset based on it 22:52:05 s0ber [i=pie@118-160-165-192.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:03 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1DAD9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:55:41 ... TI, Lisp, Chipset... Explorer? 22:56:10 different chipset 22:56:23 maybe if you asked nicely they'd shove one in an SoC for you :D 22:56:32 Pity. The Explorer micro-architecture was fun, modulo popj-14. 22:56:47 ravster [n=user@dsl-67-204-8-159.acanac.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:50 Hello all 22:57:04 nyef: popj-14? it sounds... ominous 22:57:17 (it'll be interesting to see if people start doing that as fpgas get cheaper; one-off old chipsets in modern SoCs could probably be done relatively cheaply) 22:57:25 p_l: sounds stack-machine-y 22:58:03 Is it possible to make web scripts on lisp? I'd like to make something that is able to do stuff that would be like clicking links, entering text, making selections, etc. if I were to do things manually. 22:58:14 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p54BCC09F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 22:58:33 p_l: Yeah. If bit 14 of the return address on the microstack is set when doing a POPJ (return) operation, do an instruction-dispatch next cycle. 22:58:43 minion: drakma? 22:58:44 drakma: Drakma is a fully-featured Common Lisp web client library that knows how to handle HTTP/1.1 chunking, persistent connections, re-usable sockets, SSL, continuable uploads, cookies, and other things. http://www.cliki.net/drakma 22:58:48 ugh 22:59:01 ... Or was it just that it did the conditional macroinstruction fetch thing? 22:59:19 rsynnott: it's better, we might get cheap ASIC production 22:59:38 Yeah, it was the conditional macroinstruction fetch, the return always landed on the dispatch unless the fetch had to happen in which case it bumped the return PC a bit to fall into the memory-access path. 22:59:41 rsynnott: including 3D design and mechanical parts 23:00:10 Anyway, enough of funky microarchitecture, I'm going to go try and find food and drink. 23:00:26 well, yep, that's the more PRACTICAL application, sure :) 23:00:57 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 23:01:21 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.110.29] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:02:15 though I'd say cheap ASIC is a bit further away than cheap large scale FPGA :) 23:02:50 FPGAs are already cheap 23:03:15 ravster: you want drakma, like stassats said, and closure-html 23:03:16 big ones (million gate scale) are still pretty pricy, last I saw 23:03:46 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-104-22.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 23:03:48 and with all fancy micro architecture we still do pretty much the same things at the same speed, spreadsheets, word processing, emails 23:03:53 is there something like weka for lisp? 23:03:56 in some cases probably slower now :p 23:04:21 Guthur: well, yep, the PC industry is having increasing difficulty pushing upgrades 23:04:28 It boggles my mind how anything can be slow on modern processors 23:04:28 its like trains, they got fast but average travel time went up 23:04:41 new chips are great for servers, but increasingly uninteresting for consumer market 23:05:12 i can't see me upgrading my current rig for yet another 3 years 23:05:13 HD video is pretty CPU consuming 23:05:29 even then probably only when the motherboard fails 23:05:45 stassats: but being offloaded on graphics cards and dthings now 23:05:52 its socket 939 so might be getting harder to source a new one :| 23:05:55 and not yet of great interest to the average consumer 23:06:34 i would think gfx chips would be well suited to it 23:06:39 *hefner* thinks video is the devil, corrupts everything it touches 23:06:48 hefner: isn't that audio? 23:07:03 the only thing they really can't do to well is branching, as far as i can tell 23:07:08 pkhuong: no, just ALSA. 23:07:22 audio didn't kill the radio star 23:07:24 how to make source code highlighting sassy in lisp on slime? ;-) any ready made configuration? 23:08:00 hefner i agree, i know call the TV 'the great pacifier' :p 23:08:07 notepad++ has good highlighting 23:08:15 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.129.142] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:08:43 bigshot_ ya i really liked it 23:09:06 phf: thanks, I'll look into that 23:09:50 Bigshot_: (global-font-lock-mode 1) 23:09:50 hefner, you just reminded of the disappointment of not having my Edirol audio interface work on linux :| 23:10:14 Bigshot_:  ... 23:10:26 what's that japanese? 23:10:57 -!- ravster [n=user@dsl-67-204-8-159.acanac.net] has left #lisp 23:11:21 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-69-251.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:11:35 stassats: that' (setq global... ) correct? 23:11:56 Bigshot_: no. that's (global-font-lock-mode 1). 23:11:56 that's 23:12:05 Bigshot_: what pkhuong said 23:12:25 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:14:14 rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 23:14:18 Bigshot_: it basically meant "DESPAIR". I understand the craving for beautiful hilighting, but... You know, look at http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/emacs/ especially mwe-color-box.el 23:14:44 Guthur: funny you mention that. my windows box is dead, and I'm staring at this fancy motu interface which is basically a brick to me without linux drivers. 23:16:14 *Guthur* checks what a motu is :) 23:16:23 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-42-169.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:16:55 Mark of the Unicorn :) 23:17:28 oh audio interface :), i thought you meant GUI 23:17:31 why, my interface with the Masters of the Universe, of course. 23:17:50 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-1216.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:19:01 there is some half baked drivers for the FA-101 I have, and I can even see it on the firewire port but I can't figure out how to get it to recognise the inputs 23:19:42 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [] 23:20:01 or that it has anything actually, didn't try for too long though, think i might have to sell it and get a USB one, for some reason linux seems to have issues with firewire 23:20:20 Guthur: There were changes to FireWire stack recently 23:20:30 *hefner* is very skeptical of the idea of a usb audio interface, wonders if he's just living in 2004 though 23:20:32 not all drivers got ported to new one 23:20:53 hefner: it still trumps the so called HDA aka Azala aka Shitty-Bitty DAC 23:20:57 Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.71.10] has joined #lisp 23:21:14 i have an edirol USB audio interface and i like it. 23:21:28 hefner, ya i really like my FA-101 its a quality piece of kit, i never really got to push it to the limits 23:21:29 p_l: that goes without saying. 23:21:45 also, USB-Audio standard is pretty solid, unlike most of the rest 23:21:53 as in, actually implemented 23:21:53 hefner: If you don't need near-realtime i/o they can be fine. 23:22:16 *hefner* would strongly prefer near-realtime i/o, yes 23:22:35 *antoszka* only records music, so he doesn't care 23:22:45 (not much at least) 23:23:10 *hefner* says this while hacking on audio code with a hardcoded latency of half a second.. hmm.. 23:23:30 hefner: then, expensive pci cards with special drivers, or other expensive devices with firewire :D 23:23:43 hefner can you hack me up some linux drivers :p 23:24:22 and don't forget a real-time OS 23:24:32 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:24:57 -!- dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-198-84.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:25:51 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 23:26:37 i thought ASIO was the lowest latency api that you could get 23:27:08 umm i suppose i could try wine 23:27:40 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:28 johncl [n=memet@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:40 Anyone here have experience connecting with MS SQL Server? 23:30:36 -!- johncl [n=memet@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:30:59 johncl [n=memet@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:01 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:04 -!- paw [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:33:58 -!- ruediger_ [n=ruediger@62-47-159-18.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:35:27 johncl: from lisp? 23:35:34 cl-sql can do it, at least through odbc 23:35:38 correct 23:35:52 I think the sybase driver MIGHT also work 23:35:59 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-178-146.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:36:02 you get it working at all? I'm understanding I'll have to go through FreeTDS driver and unixODBC 23:36:08 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:36:15 I'm just wondering if it's too much of a pain to even begin on that trip 23:36:25 (I'm on debial, btw) 23:36:28 debian 23:37:14 johncl: it probably should be okay 23:37:21 I've never used that precise combination 23:37:30 I see. 23:37:32 but I've used java/unixODBC/freetds before 23:37:41 and clsql's odbc support seems okay 23:37:49 and what's your overall impression of using a SQL data layer to do applications in cl? 23:38:05 is it totally counter productive? 23:38:13 well, much the same as anywhere else, really 23:38:22 -!- pekka_ [n=patric@90-230-89-60-no148.tbcn.telia.com] has quit ["leaving"] 23:38:41 meh, works alright 23:38:42 (though there are alternatives, like elephant) 23:38:53 johncl: any particular reason you want to use sql server? 23:39:07 I have a pretty hefty webapp which already exists 23:39:29 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6E9F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 23:39:30 has a 600 megabyte database of actual data (not bookkeeping and other dead cruft) 23:39:49 so it's not something I can just toss into a makeshift xml file or anything. 23:40:10 the webapp exists on MS SQL Server over ASP/COM/C++ 23:40:23 a few people seem to have done it, anyway 23:40:40 it's pretty well divided in that almost the entirety of the webapp logic is in the stored procedures. 23:41:01 (in fact, the C++ layer is entirely stateless) 23:41:08 ugh 23:41:09 :) 23:41:34 well, it's better that way for C++ at least. no use in reimplementing the wheel when the DB can do it. 23:41:46 But I'm thinking of putting more logic in place using CL 23:41:50 and I'm not sure how to proceed. 23:42:06 do I rewrite the data layer by hand in CL? 23:42:18 do I parse it and create classes using SQL script dumps? 23:42:20 etc. 23:42:45 (CL classes) 23:43:31 is SQL widely used in CL? or is that just a kludge that people like me bring along with their backgrounds in Java/C++? 23:43:39 is there a more lispy way to store data? 23:43:51 SQL is good at what it does 23:44:13 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087F305.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 23:44:18 there is at least one SQL ORM, but I think it's postgres specific 23:44:21 but placing you app code in the database seems like it might have negated a simple solution 23:44:35 Guthur: howso? 23:45:03 I don't think that stored procedures are necessarily a common approach, but sql per se is fine 23:45:05 well is T-SQL not got MS specific features and syntaxes ? 23:45:16 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-47.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:45:23 s/is/has 23:45:37 it probably does, but the database design is pretty kosher 23:45:49 -!- asksol [n=ask@062249179105.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:45:50 very well normalized and everything. The database design is the best part of the whole stack 23:46:30 yeah, I'm a fan of SPs in that it allows for a very clear delination of the MVC paradigm, but I'm not preaching my ideology =) 23:47:08 rsynnott: tell me about this ORM: does it create model definitions in the CL environment by reading in from the DB? 23:47:15 or is it the other way around? 23:47:21 where is the data model defined? 23:47:51 -!- birdsbite [n=user@74.196.9.26] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:49:19 The database (tables relationships etc) should be easy to move, I would have thought. Its the heavy SP's that might need the most work to convert. 23:49:54 johncl: in this case, db tables are created based on cl classes: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-perec/ 23:50:28 Guthur: ideally I'm planning on keeping the db as is. And connecting to it from CL. However, if I find that the two environments just don't mesh, I'll consider migrating away from the db (however, it's really a lot of code that doesn't necessarily need to be migrated) 23:50:38 johncl: you can always make whatever integration method you want with macros 23:50:45 though you wouldn't need to convert the SPs at all if you used cl-sql with freetds, presumably 23:51:07 johncl, i think your plan A is a good one, not much wrong with SQL-server 23:51:46 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:52:11 cl-perec is not postgres specific, but it's pretty much only been tested with it. there's an oracle OCI backend that at one point in time used to run almost flawlessly the test suite... 23:52:12 ok, here's another thought, I'm currently in the process of defining the model within CL, and making it a "persistent-class" that will trigger fetches transparently etc. I'm using some awk scripts to modify my SQL table definitions etc into s-exps. Is this reinventing something taht already existsts? 23:52:30 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 23:52:48 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 23:52:59 (I say this because I'm reading cl-perec and it sounds awefully close to what I'm doing) 23:53:57 elias` [n=c@host86-159-170-69.range86-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:54:02 johncl: perec has nothing in the SQL->CL direction, it's merely using sql as an ACID layer 23:54:09 -!- phf [n=phf@pool-71-175-128-66.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 23:54:24 yes, I'm seeing that. 23:55:06 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.125.195] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:55:45 I see. Maybe it'll be more efficient to just implement a specialized framework for my particular webapp, not make it generic, and do some work to make it act like perec in that it silently does the persistent reading parts, and the writing parts are done explicitly through the SPs 23:56:56 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 23:57:11 what about AllegroCache? Is that solution elegant? Does anything of similar nature exist which is free?