00:00:11 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-123.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:00:16 Ralith: why not ? 00:00:21 MrSpec: don't ask me 00:00:26 I didn't write the standard. 00:00:34 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:00:40 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:00:51 downto isn't working ? 00:01:57 ruepel0r: pardon me, then. 00:03:17 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r6y126.net.upc.cz] has quit ["GNU is *indeed* No UNIX!"] 00:04:28 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:04:38 ruepel0r pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81787 00:04:48 could you please have a look at it 00:05:43 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:46 it seems that for the second part it just changes the binding of list1 inside the function (pass reference by value) 00:05:54 ruepel0r: your last affirmation is wrong. list1 should not change. 00:05:59 (setf list1 ...) is assigning to a local variable, just like in most any other language. such changes do not affect the caller 00:06:11 that's what i presumed 00:06:15 how can i "fix" that? 00:06:25 You won't. 00:06:33 pjb, i want list1 to change, how can i do that? 00:06:37 you are correct. CL, like most GCed languages, uses pass-references-by-value in all function calls 00:06:42 ruepel0r: you have to write a macro 00:06:52 ruepel0r: for example, PUSH is a macro that does that sort of thing 00:07:05 -!- dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:07:09 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:10 at least no I have a real situation where i need a macro 00:07:17 i was waiting for that situation for a long time 00:07:20 another way to do it is the caller keeps one extra cons 00:07:30 and passes it in to the function 00:07:37 i.e. you never use the zero case 00:07:42 you mean that i only need the condition of my function? 00:07:49 You don't need it, and should rather not use a macro for this kind of situations. 00:07:49 could be an option 00:08:01 In which case, you can replace your insert-at with (push new-elem (nthcdr pos list)) 00:08:04 pjb, what's you suggestion? 00:08:09 Resist the tentation of procedural style and assignment. (you should use LET, not SETF). 00:08:28 Practically speaking, it is better not to be inserting in the middle of a list anyway, since that's O(n) 00:08:49 The exact details of what to do instead depend on your larger algorithm 00:09:08 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:26 my larger algorithm is to insert at a specific position in a sorted list, i could also use a heap, but i thought my idea is less to implement 00:09:35 but with O(n) it is not good.. 00:10:01 insert in a sorted list? use merge: 00:10:03 clhs merge 00:10:03 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_merge.htm 00:10:08 (but that's still O(n) 00:10:09 ) 00:10:13 exactly 00:10:16 pjb annotated #81787 "use let" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81787#1 00:10:16 that's too slow 00:10:25 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:10:50 you need to look up higher and reconsider using a list at all -- or wanting to insert (sorted or otherwise) in a list 00:10:59 pjb, ok, just for the test cases, i thought you mean i also have to use let inside the defun 00:11:11 inserting in the middle of the list is fine provided you already have the pointer to the point you want to insert at :) 00:11:23 ruepel0r: well inside the function setf is just useless. 00:11:40 that's what i was wondering 00:12:23 kpreid, another idea was just insert in the beginning and then resort again, but resorting with one single element changed needs nearly the same time like sorting the unsorted list 00:12:32 -!- vedm [n=vedm@80-219-241-144.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [] 00:12:40 ruepel0r: you're thinking too low-level 00:12:42 kpreid, don't i have in lisp just lists, arrays and hashtable? 00:12:55 tell us what you want to accomplish by HAVING a sorted list at all 00:15:41 it was a while ago when i needed it, don't know exactly what i was actually doing, i just encountered on that problem and couldn't solve it 00:15:53 and on a boring saturday morning i thought i could tackle it again 00:16:11 It's a problem which is best solved by not having it :) 00:16:23 that doesn't satisfy me 00:16:36 maybe you can think of it as just having an easy implementation of a heap 00:17:13 if you're doing a heap then you should use an array or tree 00:17:26 isn't a tree a nested list? 00:17:36 "yes" 00:17:43 no, but a nested list is a tree. 00:17:45 you could equally well say a list is a very unbalanced tree 00:17:50 TDT [n=dthole@63.254.110.204] has joined #lisp 00:18:22 hefner, what's the difference? 00:18:23 Lisp gives you conses; you can build many things out of them 00:18:31 ok 00:18:48 ruepel0r: if A implies B, does B imply A? 00:19:05 maybe i should have said "tree in lisp" is represented as a list 00:19:11 Out of conses that are records of two fields, or out of structures with any number of fields, or objects, etc. 00:19:21 ok 00:19:46 probably the best way is using an array 00:20:04 Not to insert. It's even worse than in a list. 00:20:53 you are right 00:20:56 -!- brothers [n=brothers@66-234-33-22.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [] 00:20:58 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 00:21:10 forgot about that all elements have to be moved 00:21:39 Right, I mentioned arrays above as one way to do heaps 00:21:59 minion, tell me about flexichain 00:22:01 hefner: please see flexichain: A Library needed by Climacs and Gsharp. http://www.cliki.net/flexichain 00:22:37 what a terrible description :) 00:23:52 I'm brainstorming a bit about streams and processes, and have been for a few days. I uploaded what code I've been working on here http://paste.lisp.org/display/81788 -- What I'm curious of is really what's a good way to handle this type of 2-way stream? I want to be able to execute a command and let it hang for a bit while churning, but.. 00:24:12 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:24:18 If the input buffer doesn't have any data after so long, I'm wondering if I should toss an error..or maybe it's best to just wait forever and let the user kill the script if needed. 00:24:22 it still has linear complexity for insert 00:25:04 I'm not really sure the best way to handle the idea of waiting for a process to complete and give data before moving on. Kinda a learning exercise, but could use some opinions on how to handle this and/or any suggestions on code improvements. 00:25:12 ruepel0r: what are you going to use this data structure for? 00:26:13 kpreid, as I said, i don't have the problem, which can't exactly reproduce, anymore. but anyways i'd like to have a heap / implementd just that i am satisfied :) 00:26:36 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:26:46 so.. implement a heap. 00:26:48 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 00:27:07 probably that's the only way 00:27:44 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:01 qbg [n=qbg@65-73-86-56.dsl1.mnd.mn.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:34 I just took a quick look at cliki. Here's a heap: http://www.cliki.net/binomial-heap 00:28:38 i just wanted to assure that i don't do useless work if it would work easier 00:28:45 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1DF97.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:29:54 Here's another one! http://www.cliki.net/cl-heap 00:30:22 http://www.cliki.net/cl-containers 00:30:51 thanks 00:30:53 The only reason to write a heap yourself is to learn from doing it... 00:30:55 i will sort it out 00:31:02 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:06 nah, steer clear of that last one. probably depends on all kinds of junk. ;) 00:31:13 heh 00:32:02 quite a collection of containers though 00:32:05 thank you very much 00:32:37 -!- TDT [n=dthole@63.254.110.204] has quit ["heading home"] 00:33:53 of course, here I am writing a let, with a multiple-value-bind, and another let inside that, and I probably could use metabang-bind here. 00:37:29 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:56 darn, how hard can it be to load a Java class in ABCL? :-/ 00:41:09 JAS4151 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:36 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:58 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:44:37 evening 00:44:50 Is put function in lisp? (not push) like: (put a '(b c)) => (b c a) ? I can't find it :/ 00:45:12 MrSpec: appen 00:45:14 append 00:45:30 luis: what are you trying to do? 00:45:39 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:46:02 luis: can I append atom ? 00:46:05 dmiles_afk: I'm trying to call a method that's in a class in a jar file. 00:47:02 luis: JFIELD/JSTATIC/JCALL etc .. is the issue actually getting it into the working classpath of ABCL? 00:47:04 MrSpec: (append (list 'a) (list 'b 'c)) 00:47:41 ahhh ofc, ;) too late to think :/ 00:47:50 dmiles_afk: perhaps. I can use jcall and friends for the standard java classes, but I can't make it find my jar. 00:48:25 dmiles_afk: setting CLASSPATH didn't work. Nor did changing the abcl script to pass -cp to java. 00:48:45 luis: ah.. indeed and actualyl there is no existing API for forcing a class into it ;P.. unless you write one to load 00:49:01 (cons atom list) 00:49:19 now your use of the classpath should techynically worked.. .. i'd unzip ABCLs jar into a folder.. alongh with your classes 00:49:33 luis: append is not working in this way... 00:50:04 luis: for sanity test.. unzip your stuff and ABCL into a ingle dirrectory.. and use this as your -cp 00:50:18 MrSpec: it is working 00:50:27 (append (list atom) list) 00:50:33 but use cons 00:50:34 dmiles_afk: let me try that. 00:50:37 luis: ingle/single .. this way ABCLs classes arnt any more specil than yours 00:50:57 stassats: no, we wants (append list (list atom)) IIUC 00:50:59 oh I know what I did wrong I need: (append list (list atom)) 00:51:00 s/we/he 00:51:18 ok, thanks, cons is ok :] 00:51:32 ruepel0r: that's a doubly linked list? You can insert in sqrt(n) time in such a list (expected) rather simply. 00:52:15 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:52:33 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-206-141.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:52:45 MrSpec: you realize that appending to the end is O(n) operation? 00:53:07 I was just to ask about it 00:53:11 what is reverse time ? 00:53:29 Is it O(n) ? 00:54:13 i'm bad at it, but i'd think O(n), yes 00:54:57 so few push and then reverse would be better. 00:55:00 dmiles_afk: that worked, thanks. 00:55:15 yes 00:55:32 ok I think my program is working, in few hours I'll ask how to improve it, now going sleep 00:55:39 thanks, and g night! 00:56:12 luis: that makes me think that is possible the Class.forName used by jclass 00:56:39 pkhuong, what's that about a double linked list? 00:58:16 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [] 00:58:29 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:04 ruepel0r: if you have a sorted linked list, you can insert in expected sqrt(n) time with some randomisation. 01:02:28 what's the way to implement a double linked list in lisp? 01:03:20 (defstruct 2list value next prev), or the equivalent with defclass. 01:03:33 ok 01:03:49 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-301a7839c0d3854a] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:04:32 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-128-20.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:05:58 psheldr [n=user@217.13.173.120] has joined #lisp 01:07:29 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@213.150.33.189] has joined #lisp 01:08:03 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:08:25 -!- KingNato [n=patno@84-217-6-4.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [] 01:11:17 hum i'm trying to profile something and having issues with the statistical profiler 01:11:45 saikat [n=saikat@67.180.9.222] has joined #lisp 01:11:46 so i use shark which works fine and but gives me no resolved symbol, just an address 01:11:58 can i find out which lisp function is there 01:12:26 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:13:23 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:14:54 <_3b> xristos: probably depends on if GC has moved it or not 01:16:31 how many days does code stay on the site paste.lisp.org? 01:16:38 Indefinitely, Bigshot_. 01:16:55 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@213.150.33.189] has quit [] 01:17:47 Here's a pretty old paste: . (The first paste was a test, and the next two seem to have been removed.) 01:18:23 is there a competition going on between lisp and prolog? 01:18:41 just wondering 01:18:42 _3b: assuming its not moved ? 01:18:46 Competition?? 01:18:54 would be handy if lisppaste had a "search by user" feature. occasionally I try to fish old code out of it and have trouble locating it through google. 01:19:19 rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:19:31 which language is harder to learn lisp or prolog? 01:19:53 wouldn't that depend entirely on how you think and what your background is? 01:20:04 they're both easy because they're simple, but I thin lisp is easier to make efficient programs in 01:20:05 general consensus 01:20:22 i'm gonna go with C++ then 01:20:38 *_3b* votes 'who cares, learn both.' 01:20:39 C++ is getting out of favor i've heard 01:20:56 C++ is still a good choice for certain applications 01:22:58 dmiles_afk: do you know how to get array types with jclass? Allegro's docs suggest (jclass "[java.lang.Object") but that doesn't seem to work with ABCL. 01:23:45 <_3b> xristos: you could try the stuff at http://sbcl-internals.cliki.net/gdb, or maybe sb-vm::map-allocated-objects 01:24:39 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:12 xristos: there's a function to find the code component from an address in sb-sprof. 01:25:47 sb-sprof crashes sbcl 01:25:57 i think its fixed in .29 but i can't update now 01:26:05 doesn't mean you can't use that function. 01:26:54 <_3b> you could just hot-patch the profiler too 01:26:55 pkhuong: any idea how its called 01:27:18 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcb041.osnanet.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 01:27:54 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:28:54 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 01:29:03 It's actually in sb-di. sb-sprof calls (sb-di::component-ptr-from-pc pc), pc is a SAP. 01:29:21 nuntius [n=nuntius@c-71-232-15-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:20 (it's a C function, returns NULL when there isn't any such function). sb-di::component-from-component-ptr will get you a code component object from the SAP component-ptr-from-pc returns. 01:30:30 luis: did you try (jclass "java.lang.Object[]") once? 01:31:07 CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.101.213] has joined #lisp 01:31:28 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:31:44 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:31:45 pkhuong: cool, there is also sb-sprof:debug-info 01:31:54 dmiles_afk: that didn't work, but (jclass "[Ljava.lang.Object;") seems to. 01:32:02 sb-sprof::debug-info actually 01:32:03 luis: worse case (jstatic "java....Arrays" "newInstance" (jclass "java.lang.Object")..) 01:32:51 luis: ah right on.. its worked becasue the classloader undersood that notation.. good find 01:33:44 dmiles_afk: I got that by inspecting my way through some class that had some method with an array argument type. 01:37:20 luis: do you like clojure syntax extension? 01:38:12 i am thinking it make a good #J reader that wraps new jstatic/jfield/jcalls 01:38:53 teh #J reader would produce the the right combos of the friends of jcall 01:39:27 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:40:33 yeah, that sounds useful 01:40:57 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B373.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:41:40 pkhuong: thanks it worked 01:43:02 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:10 i ended up starting it.. but instead of hitting the jcall and stuff i did #J(.trim " Hi ") (from-clojure-dot "trim" " hi ") 01:43:30 so the descrepancies could be worked out later 01:45:57 i just hope someone goes all the way with it.. for common lisp 01:48:36 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 01:58:01 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:01:08 Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:40 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:44 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:03:18 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-27-144.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:03:58 Hi guys, what's the standard way of writing data to a file with the "normal" exponential notation while still using doubles (e.g. data to be read by gnuplot)? Do you change *read-default-float-format* in a let environment? 02:04:03 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.101.213] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:04:35 *read-default-float-format* is for reading, not writing 02:04:50 that's what I suspected 02:05:35 clhs ~e 02:05:35 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ccb.htm 02:06:19 yes, and there it says that it uses rdff 02:06:35 "~,,,,,,'eE", I believe. 02:07:35 so that forces, say fractions, to be written as doubles? 02:08:10 well, it seems to work, thanks 02:09:15 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2F73B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:09:28 stassats, Sikander: actually *read-default-float-format* *IS* for printing as well, despite the name: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_acac.htm 02:10:36 kpreid: that's what I replied to stassats as well; in the hyperspec it clearly says that it determines the type from the float _and_ uses rdff 02:10:59 Oh, sorry 02:11:30 right, but i think "~,,,,,,'eE" would work better 02:12:05 :) It definately doesn't require to temporarily let rdff as 'double-float 02:12:39 which is an advantage maybe... I actually just thought of making a with-double-float-format macro 02:12:47 if you would print a lot of doubles, it could be feasible 02:12:59 but printing rationals would produce different result 02:13:16 Well, I need to read the file for plotting in, say, gnuplot 02:13:39 and gnuplot produces interesting results when the exponent symbol is s, f or d 02:13:48 i'm sure the documentation for "format" will help you figure it out 02:14:13 manic12: I'm sorry, I'll shut up now... 02:14:49 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:15:30 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 02:15:42 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-128-20.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:17:26 luis: how significant is the cffi function calling overhead ? 02:18:05 *hefner* guesses "painful", if you're at the level where you care 02:18:07 i have about a million glVertex per second and i see 50-60% cpu load 02:18:16 same code in C is close to 0 02:18:53 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:47 <_3b> why would you use glVertex if ffi overhead matters? 02:20:15 (why would you use it at all if you cared about performance?) 02:20:33 _3b: he's probably doing dynamic text quads 02:20:37 <_3b> so? 02:20:38 _3b: obviously i wont 02:20:44 nanothief [n=nanothie@115.131.11.247] has joined #lisp 02:20:48 *hefner* hands manic12 a vertex array 02:21:12 so you would spend just as much time updating the vbo as calling glvertex 02:21:30 <_3b> not nearly as much 02:21:53 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:22:03 but still enough of a hassle to ask first if cffi has overhead 02:22:04 <_3b> 1 tight loop and DMA vs. a bunch of function calls, error checking in C code, etc 02:22:22 _3b: i suspected i'd have to forget immediate mode 02:22:31 i just wanted to see how big of a deal it was 02:22:36 scary sbcl ffi transition code, bizarre fiddling of fpu state, etc.. 02:23:04 plus doesn't cffi wrap like ten dozen unwind-protects around everything? :) 02:23:08 xristos, you could render each line as a texture :P 02:23:19 manic12: lol 02:23:37 *_3b* votes to do it all in shaders :p 02:23:46 dynamic shaders 02:24:05 fwiw, ccl does foreign calls on a separate stack. 02:24:08 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:17 *manic12* obviously isn't capable of actual programming atm 02:24:59 cp2: you laugh, but that's what i'm doing 02:25:03 <_3b> (and just in case, if you are using my branch of cl-opengl, immediate mode performance is probably much worse with default settings at the moment) 02:26:01 i use pretty old darcs version 02:26:12 too bored to update 02:33:47 maybe by the time the economy improves and there is money in my checking account apple will have new mac book pros 02:34:30 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:12 *stassats* isn't really impressed by the stumpwm internals 02:35:42 stassats: It's sssllloowww. 02:36:07 Someone should make something like awesome, but with cl instead of lua 02:36:19 slow? you create and move thousands windows per second? 02:36:58 stassats: Well, startup time. 02:37:19 Sikander: The sad thing is that we're choosing window managers based on extension language. 02:37:42 parolang: yes, dammit, now I have to learn lua to configure the $#! thing! 02:38:09 the nice side of that is it implies that window managers are easy enough to write for there to be hundreds of them, so it doesn't matter if everyone reinvents the wheel 02:38:31 although it sounds like a PITA to do a really good job of, to me.. 02:38:39 configure is one thing, i already had to hack stumpwm itself 02:38:40 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:38:42 which is why extensible window manager is a good idea 02:39:00 the framework is there, just add the behaviour you like 02:39:03 -!- mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:39:19 but awesome is pretty awesome, save for the lua. 02:39:37 brothers [n=brothers@66-234-33-22.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:54 I wanted to try stumpwm, but someone said it still crashes now and then, while awesome doesn't 02:40:34 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-104-22.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 02:43:12 *stassats* uses ion3, and had no trouble with using lua without actually learning it 02:44:29 Sikander: you could try ratpoison. No crash there. But it's not written in Lisp :-( 02:45:10 I liked xmonad when I had to use !OS X. 02:45:25 -!- CrEddy [n=adaptati@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:45:48 pjb: ironically 02:46:00 Indeed. 02:46:10 *hefner* likes sawfish, wishes someone would maintain it (or abstain from breaking it, whichever explains regressions over the past year) 02:46:41 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-19-8.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 02:51:21 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:51:26 Well...here's the thing. 02:51:56 When I use a tiling window manager, I'm typically full screen except for occasionally I'll split horizontally. 02:52:22 I've seen screenshots with windows tiled all over the place, but how many people actually work like that? 02:52:51 Well, I guess its more dynamic like that. 02:52:59 Which is why I need to stop using stumpwm. 02:53:14 I tried xmonad once and was really impressed with it. 02:53:33 But now I'm using stumpwm, but it doesn't have that dynamic layout that xmonad has. 02:53:47 parolang: what do you mean by dynamic layout? 02:53:53 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-48-50.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:54:11 Sikander: Well, with xmonad you can switch between layout modes. 02:54:18 parolang: by "tiled" you mean placed in non-fullscreen? 02:54:34 parolang: Ah, you should try awesome 02:55:22 Sikander: You can do one layout mode where, when you start another program and it automatically tiles itself on the screen. And for each additional program, it re-lays out the screen in a certain configuration. 02:55:42 ah, n/m 02:56:03 Sikander: So, the feeling is that you're putting windows in a "stack" and then popping them off, as you use them. 02:56:05 parolang: oh, that seems _very_ flexible. Awesome has some predefined layouts 02:56:56 I never saw the point of a tiling window manager. even with a largish screen, I like overlapping things. lets me see the important bits while fitting more on the screen. 02:57:02 S11001001: Tiling means that windows are arranged on the screen such that there aren't any gaps showing the root window. 02:57:29 parolang: I'm not sure how it compares to awesome, lemme check out some "screencasts" on the xmonad website 02:57:34 parolang: that might be hard to do with, e.g., xterm. 02:57:59 hefner: Well the issue with overlapping windows is that no window manager is smart enough to know what part of the window you want to see and what part you don't. 02:58:15 hefner: So you end up trying to move the window around with the mouse which wastes a lot of time. 02:58:15 parolang: right, and this is one of those problems you solve by ignoring it. 02:58:53 hefner: You can do that, or solve the problem by solving it: a tiling window manager. 02:58:54 parolang: It doesn't seem that different from what awesome does 02:59:19 parolang: a tiling window manager does what no window manager is smart enough to do? 02:59:22 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:23 Sikander: I think it probably is similar. I think dwm does the same thing. 02:59:45 hefner: a tiling window manager shows you _all_ windows 03:00:05 hefner: Well, it doesn't try to guess what part of the window you want to see, it works by showing either all of the window or none of it. 03:00:07 hefner: the main program usually takes up most of the screen, while the others are much smaller 03:00:25 hefner: So the window manager does all the work of managing your windows, and you do none of it. 03:00:50 parolang: awesome has some interesting feature; instead of the normal virtual desktops with a pager, it uses tags 03:01:19 parolang: so you can attach tags to programs, and then choose to show only windows that have one or more specific tags 03:01:32 very convenient 03:01:34 Sikander: Yeah, I haven't tried awesome yet. 03:01:49 Sikander: I think dwm has tags like that too. 03:02:03 parolang: ah, ok. 03:02:10 as great as that sounds, I have a ****ton of windows hanging around. They'd all be 30 pixels high if you tried to show them at once. 03:02:17 Sikander: And is more minimal. I tell you the minimal window managers draw me in. 03:02:51 hefner: the trick is to tag your programs so that you only see what you want to see at any given time 03:02:53 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-128-20.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:02:53 *rtoym* agrees with hefner. 03:03:34 But since this is completely moving away from the lisp topic, I'll just say: to each his own :) 03:04:54 parolang: minimal is good, less distracting :) I used compiz for a while, but it's just fun for a week or so... 03:05:58 hefner: What Sikander said :) 03:06:19 Sikander: Yeah, and compiz is fun for showing off :) 03:06:41 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-183.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 03:07:30 But, tiling window managers are less pretty though. They are very spartan. 03:07:36 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:52 parolang, Sikander: I do that using different desktops with only a couple windows (in the case of exactly two, I usually have them maximized bordless and alt-tab between them). But there's still value in a free-for-all of overlapping web browsers, IM/IRC/mail clients, and music players. 03:08:00 parolang: Everyone who sees my screen (a fullscreen xterm or so) thinks it's some 50's OS ;) 03:08:08 ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-183.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:21 Sikander: You still use a DOS prompt? ;) 03:08:49 hefner: I like uncluttered, ordered etc. But to each his own as I said before :) 03:09:18 hefner: Honestly, I don't see the value of overlapping anything, really. 03:09:18 parolang: But they gasp when they see a fullscreen firefox with vimperator running: "So much screen and no annoying menubars!" 03:09:28 c|mell [n=john@x250039.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 03:09:44 hefner: The window manager can't do it well, so it shouldn't try to do it at all. 03:09:59 hefner: Look at it this way: tiling is like a permanent "Expose", where you can choose one or two "main" (larger) windows 03:10:39 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:48 parolang: that makes no sense. 03:11:04 if you're using clisp in a .cgi file, how do you access the environmental variables? 03:11:21 isismelting: with getenv. 03:11:26 hefner: I agree with parolang. Most of the problems in any UI is when it tries to guess what the user wants but can't get it right. VERY annoying 03:11:30 isismelting: what else? 03:11:30 minion: getenv 03:11:31 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``getenv''. 03:11:35 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["oh"] 03:11:41 isismelting: read the implementation notes. 03:11:43 parolang: not that it isn't a true statement, but the context is really that you're arguing "since the window manager can't do a good job of arranging the windows, the user shouldn't be allowed to try it either" 03:11:47 hefner: We just agreed that window managers aren't smart enough to know what part of the window you are looking at it, to not plop a window on top of it. 03:12:01 isismelting: http://clisp.cons.org/impnotes/ 03:12:36 hefner: Well, true, the user *could* do window placement with the mouse, but that is time consuming an inefficient. 03:13:29 *hefner* moves this window around, resizes it. That wasn't hard. 03:13:43 hefner: Moving windows around with a mouse is the window manager equivalent of playing with yourself :) 03:13:51 hefner: It's good to have a layout that you can choose, and then let the window manager always use that layout, and let the user move them around in that layout 03:14:07 parolang: Isn't tagging the windows the same deal? :-) 03:14:07 parolang: You'd rather input textual coordinates and sizes? 03:14:11 hefner: It doesn't seem hard until you don't have to do that anymore :) 03:14:14 parolang: that's not so bad, so long as you do it all day. 03:14:22 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:14:27 -!- nanothief [n=nanothie@115.131.11.247] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:14:45 I'm just saying that a dedicated tiling window manager seems like optimizing for a special case. 03:15:12 hefner: Exactly. You choose the layout that is optimized for what you like. Never have to worry again 03:15:20 my ideal desktop would not involve a lot of overlapping crap, but ideal solutions are far off over the horizon. 03:15:24 hefner: configure once and be happy 03:15:41 rtoym: Well, I haven't used a wm that does tagging. But I think with the tagging wm's they just configure that in their configuration file and they don't tag and untag during runtime. 03:15:52 My idea desktop would be made of flexible plastic, be huge, and 200dpi 03:16:06 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-138-193-165.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 03:16:10 I like the "more screen real estate" approach to avoiding overlap :) 03:16:14 I like my 2m long wooden table. 03:16:23 Phoodus: With tiling window managers, you don't need to input coordinates. 03:16:41 parolang: Oh. That would suck. I move things around all the time and what I want to see together changes too. 03:16:42 rtoym: tagging is indeed just configured once. You can quickly tag if you want to "move" stuff around, but then it's just a keyboard shortcut. Faster than moving your hand to the mouse and dragging around 03:17:19 did you guys really spend hours every day dragging windows around before you discovered tiling window managers? 03:17:19 rtoym: so even if you tag "on the fly", it's _much_ faster 03:17:21 there's nothing stopping move & resize in a "standard" windowing environment as well 03:17:55 s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-160-169-16.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:01 hefner: No, I tried a tiling window manager and suddenly discovered that I don't drag windows around any more! 03:18:08 Keyboard shortcuts almost always get in the way of emacs. :-) 03:18:29 rtoym: not with xmonad! screen and emacs friendly (: 03:18:30 rtoym: No, several are designed to not clash with emacs. And you can remap the keys 03:18:42 isismelting: notice that if your clisp is well configured, (apropos "GETENV") and (describe 'EXT:GETENV) should give you all the information you need. 03:18:43 Actually, many are designed like that 03:19:31 But since I can map any key sequence I want in emacs, there's never a guarantee there's no collision. 03:19:40 So if I take the steering wheel off my car, does it become a train? 03:20:02 Not that I do that too much. 03:20:48 Let's just say, I used all sorts of crap from twm all through compiz until I settled on fluxbox. Then I tried tiling wm's to see what the fuss is about (and because moving a mouse on a laptop sucks and mice suck in general) and I'm a convert ever since. 03:21:00 rtoym: You can also remap the keys of the wm of course 03:21:30 hefner: It's not really a matter of wasting time dragging windows around, but a waste of attention. 03:21:42 rtoym: there's no guarantee. However, the C-c prefix is reserved for the user. 03:21:50 hefner: Yes, what parolang said; breaking concentration. 03:21:59 rtoym: and you can always use Super, Hyper, or Alt, instead of of Control or Meta. 03:22:02 hefner: You're in the middle of doing work until you find yourself playing with the window manager to get just the right alignment. 03:22:05 parolang: well, that's true. if the tiling WM made it too much trouble to keep the IRC client on the screen, I probably wouldn't waste time being interrupted by it. 03:22:22 heheh 03:23:20 rtoym: while major modes shouldn't bind keys with the C-c prefix, some do :-( 03:23:37 From xmonad page: "In a normal WM, you spend half your time aligning....windows". That's enough to turn me off. I certainly don't spend any where near half my time aligning windows. 03:23:44 *Sikander* doesn't get what all the remapping fuss is about, but then again, he doesn't use emacs 03:24:48 I rely on fragments of partly visible windows to remind me what else I was working on. :-) 03:24:54 rtoym: Well, when you use emacs, conveniant keybindings are always a problem. 03:24:55 pjb: Yeah, that's annoying. I tend not to add too many personal keybindings anymore. If I ever have to help someone, I can never get anything done because nothing works. :-( 03:25:05 rtoym: Yeah, that's what they call a figure of speech in english... 03:25:32 Sikander: that's what we call annoying hyperbole. 03:25:41 :) 03:25:51 I agree, it's a stupid thing to say 03:26:11 rtoym: using hyper- or super-, or even alt- if it's different from meta- for user keybindings is cool. 03:26:12 The solution to all your remapping issues: Vi(m)! 03:26:13 *Sikander* ducks. 03:26:21 rtoym: and you can always translate to standard commands with C-h k 03:26:31 pkhuong: It's annoying when you are opposed to the rhetorical point. 03:26:37 Sikander: pang! pang! pang! 03:26:53 *Sikander* drops dead on the floor... or... does he? Tune in next time... 03:27:01 IMHO, super (windows key) is a difficult key to reach for. 03:27:12 pjb: Most of my keyboards don't have enough keys for alt/super/hyper. And the keyboards are all different, so that's a doesn't work out very well unfortunately. 03:27:31 parolang: my pinky is usually on the windows key continuously. but then, it's my meta modifier. :) 03:27:39 Did any of you remap capslock to control? 03:27:40 rtoym: yes, you'd have to play with xmodmap. 03:27:47 Sikander: of course. Essential! 03:27:53 :) 03:27:55 I think I'd much rather map hyper to my right alt key, and use that for wm bindings. 03:27:57 For me too 03:28:07 Everyone makes fun of me because of that... :( 03:28:11 hefner: Maybe your keyboard is different than mine. 03:28:19 probably. mine is right, though. 03:28:20 For ratpoison, I use C-t which I didn't use in emacs much anyways. 03:28:31 For screen, I use C-z since there it's not too useful in emacs. 03:28:31 parolang: using a laptop? 03:28:36 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 03:28:41 Sikander: Of course. If you use emacs, you have to map caps lock to control. 03:28:56 Sikander: I thought vi users map tab to escape. 03:29:00 pjb: It's already pretty annoying that ~ and ESC are in many different places on my keyboards and I can't map them to the same place. I'm too cheap to by the same keyboard for all machines. 03:29:02 parolang: I use vi and I STILL do it! 03:29:18 hefner: Yeah, a netbook, but I have a full size keyboard attached. 03:29:30 parolang: I use Ctrl+[ for escape 03:29:46 rtoym: really, keyboards are the cheapest devices. 03:29:53 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-172-70.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:30:07 pjb: I think I'm going to steal your keybinding for screen. I was looking for a key for that :) 03:30:50 Sikander: Hmm...there's a keybinding I'll have to find a use for. 03:31:05 The only use I have for escape is to stop page loading in iceweasel. 03:31:12 :) 03:32:18 parolang: I use vimperator addon for firefox. Then Ctrl+C is the stop page 03:32:36 parolang: and browsing is just with the keyboard 03:32:49 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-171-126.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:21 the problem with arguments like "tiling window managers will save you a lot of time and effort!" is that they're always made by people whose idea of fun is fiddling with how they can reconfigure their computer. 03:34:04 pjb: Yeah, I know. I'm cheap. :-) 03:34:05 hefner: It's not a question of saving time/effort, but never having to break your concentration to fiddle at all 03:34:26 right, it's often a question of shaving yaks raw. 03:34:31 hefner: Because it is all already good 03:34:52 well, I've never shaven a yak raw. 03:34:57 Is it cool? 03:36:33 *rtoym* never breaks his concentration fiddling around with windows. 03:36:56 I guess my brain is just wired differently. 03:38:26 rtoym: I never noticed until I switched to window managers. I realized after a few hours that I didn't do anything with the window manager. Great if the WM actually manages your windows :) 03:39:54 Or perhaps I'm just too old and set to change anymore. 03:40:10 in more civilized days, everyone involved in this conversation would've been kicked twenty minutes ago. 03:40:32 -!- saikat [n=saikat@67.180.9.222] has quit [] 03:40:33 We need more jedi! 03:40:45 hefner: heh 03:40:48 minion: chant 03:40:49 MORE JEDI 03:40:54 Lisp is dead. Gotta talk about something. 03:41:13 *rtoym* just finished watching Star Wars 3. 03:41:58 Nooooo! 03:43:40 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:43:57 say, 03:44:06 for developing a small 3d game in lisp, 03:44:09 *hefner* mostly hacks an alarm clock feature into his lisp mp3 player, wonders how to deal with adjusting the wakeup time. interrupt the sleeping alarm thread? start a new one and expire the old one's authority to start the player? sleep and poll the wakeup time every minute? 03:44:10 what toolchain do you recommend? 03:44:11 pkhuong: Back to lisp. Do you assume the inputs don't have junk and make sure the outputs don't have junk? 03:44:19 sbcl, and what else? 03:44:52 rtoym: yup. 03:46:24 The only time you I do something special is when dividing a complex single by a single (to clear out the top half), and when extracting the real part. 03:46:40 Sounds like a good idea. 03:47:13 hefner: poll and sleep on a condvar (with time out)? 03:50:25 I thought about condition variables, but (since condition-wait doesn't take a timeout arg) it didn't occur to me to surround that with, perhaps, sb-ext:with-timeout 03:50:39 although since I'm already being unportable, I guess I should just use SBCL's timer facility. 03:51:22 oh, no I meant pthread's wait with timeout ;) 03:51:59 but polling once a minute or so shouldn't be any worse, and would be much simpler. 03:52:17 that sounds more sane, except for the pthreads bit ;) 03:52:40 but yeah, I think I'll go with polling it. 03:55:10 it would be nice if condition-wait supported a timeout, though. 03:55:59 dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-198-84.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:06 doesn't seem too hard to fix. 03:57:00 mm.. bad race condition. 03:57:32 nope 03:57:58 heh 03:58:21 -!- s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-160-169-16.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:58:31 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:59:40 yeah... requires a modification to the runtime on sb-lutex platforms 04:00:08 but it seems like a sane thing to want. mega1 can show me wrong later today ;) 04:04:14 heh. a victory for doing the right thing, surely: "library> alarm in 540000 hours" => "Alarm set for Sun Feb 18 11:16 PM 2071" 04:04:46 -!- nuntius [n=nuntius@c-71-232-15-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12"] 04:08:34 zarocon [n=stute@unaffiliated/pina] has joined #lisp 04:09:39 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 04:11:21 herbieB: I found out why Clhelp didn't work any more for me... I still don't understand it but I can reproduce this every time now 04:12:23 herbieB: If you Clhelp , then close the buffer, then Clhelp (same subject), it shows an empty buffer 04:16:09 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:16:49 ooh, neat. I might get to cite a functional pearl in OR :) 04:16:52 _stern_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E476BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:38 Sikander: Ah, yeah. 04:20:04 Sikander: It's because of how vim's "help" psuedo works when you are hot-loading information. 04:20:11 herbieB: So for some reason (I panicked!) I always Clhelp the same subject and convinced myself that it didn't work 04:20:20 -!- dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-198-84.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:20:23 Sikander: I was going to suggest that but then it was "fixed" for you. 04:20:30 herbieB: ah :) 04:20:37 Sikander: Though I'll put on the main page now. 04:21:13 herbieB: Is that really a vim issue? Never had that problem with other help before... I'm gonna try it out now.... 04:21:30 Sikander: No, it's the way I'm "using" vim. 04:21:40 herbieB: Ah, ok 04:25:37 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-128-20.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:26:34 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:27:11 Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:48 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit ["Leaving..."] 04:28:04 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-128-20.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:28:39 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 04:29:28 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 04:33:12 fUD [n=billsb@124-171-223-148.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:33:14 Hi 04:34:07 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E46F2D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:27:05 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 18:27:05 18:27:05 -!- names: ccl-logbot Khisanth kejsaren_ slash_ kejsaren mrSpec chii michaelw Xof pok z0d Dave2 _dima krappie luis boyscared Maddas gz noptys Bucciarati rsynnott vsync guenthr Draggor pkhuong r0bby sjbach lemoinem rotty cmm sepisultrum wgl dostoyevsky thijso tcoppi srcerer bun_bun vcgomes zbigniew easyE egn specbot ilitirit smithzv tarbo drhodes rlonstein yahooooo jrockway ski bfein dcrawford meingbg Axioplase myrkraverk ianmcorvidae stepnem clog djkthx 18:27:05 -!- names: nasloc__ Riastradh cavelife^ tessier maxote kefka johs nicktastic mgr housel scode_ ecraven glogic erk rbancroft trebor_dki kuhzoo joga REPLeffect fnordus AntiSpamMeta jsnell Aisling authentic johanbev bdowning Buganini mtd pjb Ralith froydnj bohanlon cYmen ramus` erg alexbobp ironChicken Borbus Adrinael Ppjet6 Ringo48 qebab bob_f kuwabara jlf` phadthai caddar tltstc enn anekos Dazhbog djinni` BrianRice sykopomp drforr Patzy frodef matimago 18:27:05 -!- names: mornfall madnificent mikezor proq Ginei_Morioka guaqua jkantz Holcxjo brown``` mathrick ineiros [df] leo2007 cp2 Intensity Fade herbieB minion gonzojive lnostdal l_a_m hyperboreean marcoecc arbscht Bootvis xan Taggnostr pitui gigamonkey frontiers X-Scale _3b hefner mindCrime pem Soulmann slyrus xinming joast rdd ZabaQ grouzen PissedNumlock dto` kei_ TauPan sohail tsuru azuk` antifuchs pragma_ kpreid foom araujo lujz plutonas michael__ asdf1234 18:27:05 -!- names: rey_ cracki zophy ``Erik Lectus rread_ pitui` felipe rstandy abeaumont Bigshot_ hypno Jasko dys` bombshelter13_ ia manic12 JAS4151 willb ahaas s0ber holycow seelenquell CrazyEddy dmiles Davse_Bamse lukego tcr Aankhen`` Athas KingNato prxq benny tic_ bobf danlei jbjohns eno pekka_ billstclair DeusExPikachu Guthur Krystof chris2 matley daniel_ jewel HET2 sellout antoszka Jabberwockey Gertm DarkRavin parolang schme dreish Nshag tseug jmbr mattrepl 18:27:05 -!- names: Quadrescence wol krumholt [Head|Rest] dalkvist prip fe[nl]ix grkz HET3 stassats The-Kenny sepult Odin- Marcipicus brothers pierre- mejja HG` _Pb delYsid gemelen slyrus_ blackened` blast_hardcheese hsaliak legumbre Yuuhi saikat_ rullie ikki SandGorgon borism asksol @drewc a-s puchacz konr dfox lisppaste Drakeson xristos Orest galdor cods p_l wasabi__ desu koollman fgtech 18:28:47 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.168.12] has quit ["Log this!"] 18:30:42 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 18:31:03 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:35:22 Bigshot_: Good news, I've got SLIME running with Emacs-W32 and Clozure CL on win64 18:35:41 good 18:37:02 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:37:11 what's the config file? 18:38:04 p_l pasted ".emacs for Bigshot to look" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81822 18:38:22 I managed to load slime using it :) 18:39:24 there are some errors during startup, but telling lisp to retry helps 18:40:54 that config can be adapted should you get interested with LW or ACL 18:42:08 *p_l* doesn't use them because of certain licensing issues 18:42:35 p_l: i should delete slime in AppData? 18:43:11 Bigshot_: you can delete it or change the paths, your call 18:43:29 where should i put this .emacs file? 18:43:43 C-x C-f ~/.emacs 18:44:05 copy&paste and edit to your liking 18:44:28 ~/.emacs 18:45:26 I recommend getting through Emacs tutorial (it was C-h t?) or some guides on net, to ease your introduction 18:47:09 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-92-172.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:47:40 p_l: what is this "ccl"? 18:48:00 -!- Orest is now known as Orest^bnc 18:48:04 Clozure Common Lisp 18:48:12 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-34-152.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:48:31 afk 18:48:33 oh ok 18:49:26 unafk, I couldn't get the person I wanted on the phone 18:51:55 -!- Orest^bnc is now known as Orest 18:52:02 File error: Cannot open load file, c:/lisp/sources/slimes/slime.el 18:52:32 oh wait 18:52:39 you should adjust load-path 18:52:52 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:18 Is there a function that splits '(3 4 5 6 7 8) into '(3 4 5 6 7) and 8? 18:53:20 stassats: there's stuff for that in the paste 18:53:34 clhs butlast 18:53:35 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_butlas.htm 18:53:36 clhs last 18:53:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_last.htm 18:53:41 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:15 though, these two will travers list twice 18:55:20 hmmm, that was what I was trying to avoid... but I guess it won't be a problem, since I'm not applying it to a large list 18:56:11 traversing the list once would already be a problem, if you care about it 18:56:16 so should be ok 18:59:25 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:00:46 p_l: there's no highlighting 19:02:12 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 19:02:13 rullie_ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:02:33 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 19:02:42 -!- rullie_ is now known as rullie 19:03:56 Bigshot_: You mean coloring of sourcecode? 19:04:01 yeah 19:04:26 eh... I can put my whole config online and let you pick stuff you might want :D 19:04:50 Bigshot_: on files with .lisp extension? 19:05:10 yes stassats 19:05:26 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.177] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 19:05:42 does it show "Lisp .. Slime .." in the modeline? 19:06:11 hrm... what does this mean: "The variable SB-ALIEN::*RECORD-TYPES-ALREADY-UNPARSED* is unbound."? 19:06:42 p_l annotated #81822 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81822#1 19:06:42 yes stassats 19:07:20 my emacs config even contains C code... 19:07:22 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:07:29 Bigshot_: fontlock has to be set etc. I pasted my *linux* configs for now - I just installed Emacs on my windows server yesterday :D 19:08:12 slyrus_: some code used an unexported symbol which got removed? 19:08:27 slyrus_: that you've found a bug ? 19:08:41 fe[nl]ix: yes, that sounds about right :) 19:09:35 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 19:10:54 p_l: let me know when you set your coloring thing 19:11:00 on windows server 19:11:38 windows SERVER? 19:11:57 rsynnott: I felt particularly insane that day 19:12:16 so now I have a beta version of Windows running on my router 19:14:11 not beta version would be already immensly insane 19:14:34 hmmm.... for some reason, I've got basic coloring 19:15:17 p_l annotated #81822 "this was colored. Also testing unicode in ccl/win64" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81822#2 19:15:55 coloruing in the repl? 19:16:03 stassats: and in slime buffers 19:16:52 *stassats* doesn't use colouring in the repl 19:17:19 stassats: that was basic configuration, on windows 19:18:17 btw, windows 2k8r2 is quite nice system :D 19:20:27 ejs [n=eugen@164-216-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:40 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-92-172.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:21:04 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-1-252.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:21:59 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:05 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:10 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:27:20 qbg [n=qbg@65-73-86-56.dsl1.mnd.mn.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:29 fiveop [n=fiveop@p579EAF7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:31 hmmm... I'll have to add some CFFI to my pagemap handling code 19:27:59 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:28:02 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:53 Otherwise I can check pagesize, it seems 19:30:15 does anyone know a tool, with which I can take a source file and put out a 'clean' html file with just the source and line numbers added (like paste bins do, but without all the fancy stuff like colours and links that belong to a pastebin) 19:31:55 emacs htmlize, I guess. 19:33:15 -!- matley [n=matley@83.224.230.105] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:33:57 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 19:34:48 dreish_ [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 19:36:25 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:39:02 -!- ejs [n=eugen@164-216-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:41:20 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:41:21 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 19:41:47 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2F6E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:42:22 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:42:27 stepnem pasted "butlast+" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81829 19:42:32 -!- dreish_ is now known as dreish 19:43:06 stassats: I wonder if something like that^ is actually more effective than calling butlast and last separately? 19:43:56 (defun split (list) (loop for cdr on list unless (cddr cdr) return (values result (car cdr)) collect (car cdr) into result)) is more effective 19:44:03 than butlast + last 19:44:03 -!- jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:45:02 your function is most ineffective 19:45:08 hehe 19:45:23 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-75-186.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:46:02 simpler solution: don't do that. 19:46:10 using length, reversing 19:47:21 yeah, I have no idea how butlast and last are actually implemented -- I figured that each of them would traverse the list twice, too -- once to get the length and for the second time to get the elements... 19:47:31 Rui [n=rui@bl9-127-17.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:48:27 I'd use a circular buffer to keep the last couple elements 19:48:28 or (car (reverse list)) in case of last -- no idea what's better, either 19:48:55 and accumulate values evicted from the buffer for butlast. 19:51:36 -!- Rui [n=rui@bl9-127-17.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["leaving"] 19:52:41 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:09 -!- mindCrime [n=chatzill@cpe-076-182-103-085.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:53:31 -!- pierre- [n=kpierre@jabber.hsdnetwork.net] has left #lisp 19:54:24 If (car (reverse list)) is recommended over (car (last list)), I quit. 19:55:09 Guys, can't I use mapcar with an anonymous function that calls a macro? 19:55:20 you can't call a macro 19:55:33 alpheus [n=user@98.215.226.98] has joined #lisp 19:55:35 you can expand it 19:56:15 vy [n=user@88.231.235.173] has joined #lisp 19:56:41 (mapcar (lambda (x y) (or x y)) list list-2) is fine 19:59:21 danlei [n=user@pD9E2F6E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:52 -!- brothers [n=brothers@66-234-33-22.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [] 20:00:17 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:00:38 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 20:02:09 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@54.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:03:51 hmmm, I've written a macro that expands, eg, (3 4 5 +) into (+ 3 4 5), yet I need to expand every element of the first before returning it, but I'm not sure how to do this in this case. A mapcar like (mapcar #'(lambda (x) (postfix-eval x) (3 4 5 +)) won't work because Lisp will try to evaluate (3 4 5 +) first, yet I also can't (quote (3 4 5 +)), because the macro expects an unquoted list... Any idea on how to do it? 20:04:07 first -> list 20:04:13 elias` [n=c@host86-159-170-69.range86-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:04:14 loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.133] has joined #lisp 20:05:36 (eval (reverse '(3 4 5 +))) 20:06:07 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:27 konr: you're not too consistent. Could you show us the macro call, and what you expect it to texpand to? 20:06:38 is postfix-eval a function? 20:07:12 boxxors [i=bawksi@ool-457aba1f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:18 rullie_ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:07:32 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:07:47 HI C|P 20:08:01 What about (a b c if) ? 20:08:02 http://pastebin.com/m148b6bfa 20:08:13 lawl [n=lawl@CPE002129c55869-CM001ceaccd40a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:08:23 -!- boxxors [i=bawksi@ool-457aba1f.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 20:08:31 lisppaste url? 20:08:31 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 20:08:37 this one is nicer for lisp ;-) 20:08:38 boxxors [i=bawksi@ool-457aba1f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:18 it is a macro, it shouldn't reverse the list, just put the last element in the first position and then evaluate it. It works fine, and i'm trying to include expansions inside the first expansion 20:09:25 konr: postfix-eval would be the name of a function that would evaluate a postfix expression. 20:09:37 cp2, yd you leave #mopar :( 20:09:38 If it's a macro, what should it do? Evaluate or put in the right order? 20:09:46 what is the fastest c++ regex lib 20:09:51 wait 20:09:52 wrong chan 20:09:54 lool 20:10:03 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068147015.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:05 boxxors: please, contact cp2 in private 20:10:08 pjb: it should expand to a different form 20:10:11 kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk 20:10:17 -!- lawl [n=lawl@CPE002129c55869-CM001ceaccd40a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 20:10:19 DCC SEND KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK 20:10:20 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:10:20 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:10:25 -!- boxxors [i=bawksi@ool-457aba1f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:10:41 BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:21 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 20:11:40 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:12:08 pjb pasted "postfix macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81831 20:12:16 Why not write a function to do the list manipulation then write the macro to use the function? 20:13:18 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:14:02 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:15:16 (append (last expr) (butlast expr)) is shorter 20:15:24 pjb: thanks! that mapcar call was really giving me headache 20:16:11 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@8.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:19:27 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:19:50 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 20:20:09 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 20:20:15 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslea209.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:20:46 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:21:03 rdad [n=rdad@cpe-67-247-62-86.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:22:45 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-173-58-94-2.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:23:07 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:29 -!- qbg [n=qbg@65-73-86-56.dsl1.mnd.mn.frontiernet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:28:15 ^ morons 20:28:36 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:28:50 keithmantell [n=user@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 20:30:18 ajax spreadsheet? http://sw.nostdal.org/text-input .. i should use parse-number... 20:30:57 keithman` [n=user@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 20:32:07 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["leaving"] 20:33:50 vithorn [n=vithorn@95.160.144.135] has joined #lisp 20:34:15 i wonder how hard it is to parse ODF 20:34:45 -!- vithorn [n=vithorn@95.160.144.135] has left #lisp 20:35:45 vithorn [n=vithorn@95.160.144.135] has joined #lisp 20:36:03 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has left #lisp 20:38:30 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:38:56 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:58 -!- keithman` [n=user@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:39:58 -!- keithmantell [n=user@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:40:55 keithmantell [n=user@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 20:42:33 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:42:45 Is there an equivalent emacs/slime command to this functionality: 20:42:50 each time you make a 20:42:50 change to a function that you want to test, just hit C-x C-d. Your 20:42:50 cursor can be anywhere in the function, or just after it. This will 20:42:51 send the updated definition over to Lisp, 20:43:28 sorry about that. That last 4 lines were suppose to be one sentence 20:44:13 C-x C-d on my emacs/slime is running the "dired" command 20:44:23 <_3b> C-c C-c and M-C-x sound sort of like that 20:44:35 ok, I will give that a try 20:44:36 <_3b> they work on or before the function though i think 20:45:15 C-x C-e works when just after the definition 20:46:42 <_3b> all 3 have different semantics aside from where they work too, which may or may not match whatever that C-x C-d came from 20:51:10 -!- DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-220-231-222.bhm.bellsouth.net] has quit ["Going To Kill The Cat -- LOL No I'm Not Just Sleep"] 20:51:45 dys`` [n=andreas@p5B31652C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:36 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:34 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [] 20:58:05 -!- dys` [n=andreas@p5B3163DA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:58:36 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:02:44 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:03:45 I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I can't get any of those commands to work. I have emacs running in split screen (2 windows). The first is the lisp source file and the second window is slime (M-x slime). I typed this in the source file: (defun double (x) (* x 2)) Then at the end of the line I run the command C-x C-e and in the list interpreter I see printed: "Lock on package SB-ALIEN violated when setting fdefinition of DOUBLE. [Condition of 21:04:04 <_3b> is the lisp file buffer in slime mode? 21:04:14 yes 21:04:34 <_3b> ah, didn't read the full message right 21:04:36 chose a better name 21:04:48 <_3b> you can't use the name double 21:04:58 CL-USER imports an implementation dependent set of symbols. 21:04:59 <_3b> or more specifically, you can't use cl:double 21:05:00 really? 21:05:07 Ok 21:05:17 <_3b> oops, sb-alien:double 21:05:18 _3b: you can use cl:double. It's cl-user::double aka sb-alien:double that you can't. 21:05:20 *_3b* gives up 21:05:43 <_3b> pkhuong: yeah, i can't read today :( 21:05:43 rdad: (defpackage "RDAD-PACKAGE" (:use "CL")) (in-package "RDAD-PACKAGE") 21:06:20 I'm new to lisp. I'm just getting an handle on defun 21:07:01 rdad: double is already a function. You can't complain if you try to redefine a predefined function. 21:07:05 clhs double 21:07:05 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for double. 21:07:25 I understand. 21:07:33 err, not in CL, but in sb-alien. 21:07:55 pjb: no, it's not. But the symbol is locked none the less. 21:08:00 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-1-252.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:08:21 Ah. 21:09:30 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:11:31 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:13:29 Is it possible to make ASDF re-compile a component/package? 21:13:44 :force t 21:13:48 but it's recrusive 21:13:55 Hrm... Thanks. 21:14:53 vy: or, rather more crude - find [directory with packages] -name *.fasl |xargs rm :) 21:15:26 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 21:15:55 that's what I do, although I'm convince xargs is one day going to figure out how to delete my home directory 21:16:27 The instruction in the books don't work with the current lisp environments 21:16:37 *hefner* is usually too lazy to use find -exec 21:16:55 these materials need some upgrading 21:17:11 hefner: that dies on filenames with spaces 21:17:13 -0 (: 21:17:19 pkhuong: yeah, exactly. 21:17:23 keithman` [n=user@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 21:18:23 but then again something like"foo -rf ~ .fasl" would be looking for trouble... 21:18:32 there's really no point in using xargs at all, is there? there's {} + or something 21:18:44 anyone here used cl-irc? I'm trying to work out how to hook onto the rpl_welcome message. 21:18:46 -exec 21:19:08 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:19:16 find "*.fasl" -delete? 21:19:53 hmm, didn't know about that one. 21:20:03 something like that -- I always have to read the manual 21:21:01 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [] 21:21:48 or depending on the shell you're using, globs could suffice here 21:22:29 find dir -type f -name '*.fasl' -exec rm -rf {} \; 21:22:50 there is another parameter that makes it work like xargs 21:23:00 i cant remember it though 21:23:16 xristos: {} + is more economic than {} \; 21:23:24 -!- keithman` [n=user@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:23:25 thats it 21:23:30 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:23:46 no, -delete is more economic 21:23:52 Yeah. 21:23:56 In this case, yes. 21:24:13 <_3b> why not just fix asdf and skip the shell completely? :) 21:24:13 But generally, when a command can eat many arguments, {} + is better than {} \; 21:24:30 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-75-186.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:24:57 what do you mean? :force t will recompile everything 21:25:20 <_3b> right, not wanting to recompile everything was what started the discussion 21:25:44 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:45 <_3b> (or else it was completely off topic :p ) 21:26:36 dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-198-84.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:00 What's a good book , website or video that teaches you the basics of the environment (emacs/slime if possible) and the debugger?? (I'm using sbcl) 21:33:21 minion: slime.mov? 21:33:21 slime.mov: "using SLIME" video by Marco Baringer, http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 21:33:48 That movie is quite advanced. No? 21:33:58 no 21:34:18 I learned a lot from it, but many things flew over my head 21:34:40 can't help with your head 21:34:59 =) 21:35:27 rullie__ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:35:27 -!- keithmantell [n=user@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:35:58 bugs are a problem 21:36:15 flying bugs are hard to catch 21:37:02 i'm really irritated by mosquitoes 21:37:08 marks [n=user@74.196.9.26] has joined #lisp 21:38:05 stassats: isnt everyone? 21:39:13 -!- marks [n=user@74.196.9.26] has left #lisp 21:40:26 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:41:25 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:55 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:24 don't know, fish like them 21:42:40 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 21:43:32 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:45:52 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:46:20 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:47:08 -!- vy [n=user@88.231.235.173] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:47:20 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:47:46 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:49:48 ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-148-37.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 21:50:05 -!- rullie_ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:50:51 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-26-100.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 21:52:25 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.247.73.229] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:53:56 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:58 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:54:07 I'm trying to write some strings to a file. One particular string is a copy of a format command. (format stream foo) keeps trying to interpret it if the string being copied has a ~a. Any pointers in the right direction appreciated. 21:54:47 how do you write it? 21:54:55 lisppaste: url? 21:54:55 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 21:55:26 wol: (format stream "~A" string) or just: (princ string stream) 21:55:37 or write-string 21:55:47 princ won't print readably 21:56:09 stassats: where is it asked? 21:56:23 pjb: who said it was asked? 21:56:27 :-) 21:57:34 -!- vithorn [n=vithorn@95.160.144.135] has quit ["BitchX-1.1-final -- just do it."] 21:58:33 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-171-126.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:59:40 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:02:51 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2F6E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:03:02 wol pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81833 22:04:04 wol: do what was said above 22:04:10 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-26-100.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:06:07 c|p [i=457aba1f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-42cf79051aac61f5] has joined #lisp 22:06:29 ?DCC SEND "ff???f?" 0 0 0 22:06:29 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:06:29 -!- Bigshot_ [n=BIG_SHOT@CPE002129abc864-CM001ac35cd4d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:06:29 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:06:29 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:06:34 -!- c|p [i=457aba1f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-42cf79051aac61f5] has left #lisp 22:06:42 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:53 BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:54 that must be very entertaining 22:06:56 Bigshot_ [n=BIG_SHOT@CPE002129abc864-CM001ac35cd4d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:07:16 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 22:08:12 probably doing a public service, in a perverse sense. 22:08:22 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@p579EAF7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 22:08:31 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:08:43 still, I sometimes wish to rig a simple AI with exploits and trigger it on every such message 22:09:16 my laziness and not wishing to end in jail stop me from that 22:09:43 *p_l* wonders how hard it would be to reuse some expert systems to perform automated attacks... 22:09:48 use ninjas instead 22:10:00 no, nuclear weapons. 22:10:07 Thank you all. 22:10:15 p_l: automated attacks? 22:10:23 hefner: nuclear weapons need clearance from target-local ASR chapter 22:10:52 madnificent: I have this pet idea of mine to rig AI techniques for infosec :> 22:10:59 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-235-40.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:20 to rule the world? 22:12:01 p_l: for what cause? 22:12:30 stassats: when I made that idea, it was for server defence, with locked counterattack unless cleared by admin 22:13:01 skynet? 22:13:08 -!- rullie__ is now known as rullie 22:13:16 if only there were something greater than skynet 22:13:28 kind of IDS on steroids, automatically searching attacker with possible counterattack scheme (with non-aggressive counterattack enabled) 22:13:47 skynet would be written in lisp, actually 22:14:15 skynet is written in Haskell, unfortunately (not joking, there is a project named skynet written in haskell :D) 22:15:01 the author knows lisp, but prefers haskell :D 22:15:10 since it can't do side-effects, it can't destroy humanity 22:15:27 stassats: LoL 22:15:49 stassats: it can do side effects. There's this messy "unsafePerformIO", not to mention "unsafeRaiseCthulhu" 22:16:05 lol 22:17:47 dizpater [n=dizpater@68-27-74-47.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:18 -!- dizpater [n=dizpater@68-27-74-47.pools.spcsdns.net] has left #lisp 22:21:05 lolsuper_ [n=super@pool-173-65-194-69.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:17 hello :) 22:21:19 -!- lolsuper_ [n=super@pool-173-65-194-69.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 22:21:30 hel.. what? 22:23:03 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:23:52 hell? 22:25:03 IRC is strange. 22:26:41 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:46 hefner: yes, there are many bunnies 22:31:30 hefner: remember, in case of Encounter, look away, you don't want to lose your sanity 22:31:51 hefner: and don't take the purple pill! 22:35:51 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:40:24 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A64A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:41:01 Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:18 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:43:24 -!- cp2 [n=will@unaffiliated/cp2] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 22:43:34 cp2 [n=will@unaffiliated/cp2] has joined #lisp 22:45:54 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.73.229] has joined #lisp 22:49:04 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:50:34 -!- mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:50:46 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:51:14 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:51:14 bobf_ [n=bob@host81-154-14-100.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:52:24 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 22:52:45 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:53:03 ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:04 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:55:11 -!- pekka_ [n=patric@90-230-89-60-no148.tbcn.telia.com] has quit ["leaving"] 22:55:21 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [] 22:56:56 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:59:32 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:59:44 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-180-20.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 22:59:47 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 23:00:39 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:19 -!- cp2 [n=will@unaffiliated/cp2] has quit ["brb"] 23:03:42 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:08:02 -!- dys`` is now known as dys 23:10:35 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:11:53 -!- bobf_ is now known as bobf 23:13:13 -!- KingNato [n=patno@84-217-6-4.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [] 23:13:34 cp2 [n=will@unaffiliated/cp2] has joined #lisp 23:13:43 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 23:16:53 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:20:46 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068147015.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:23:52 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:23:59 v0|d [n=core@a.ns.core.gen.tr] has joined #lisp 23:24:52 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 23:25:07 whatz up 23:25:30 lizp 23:25:43 nice. 23:27:12 when we can have threads in sbcl on opensolaris? 23:27:45 as soon as someone will implement them 23:27:50 you can be one to do so 23:28:07 particularly as you're probably the only person who uses it on opensolaris =p 23:28:13 Does opensolaris have any advantages over gnu/linux? 23:28:36 it's open! 23:28:37 parolang: it sounds more exotic 23:28:44 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:46 and ZFS, maybe. 23:28:49 -!- dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-198-84.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:28:59 snapshot baby:) 23:29:05 and maybe not taken over by gnomites 23:29:20 Hmm...not someone who pays a lot of attention to filesystems atm. 23:29:25 seen debian/opensolaris? 23:29:34 very exotic. 23:29:41 hefner: gnomites? People who use GNOME? 23:38:40 I recommend normal Solaris, not OpenSolaris 23:38:57 OpenSolaris is an unholy cross of Solaris with Ubuntu 23:39:22 Solaris itself is quite nice system 23:39:25 that sounds awful, although in kind of a good way. 23:40:05 <_3b> does opensolaris have the fun version of killall ? 23:40:05 hefner: what, importing all the bad stuff from Ubuntu? 23:40:05 like you could install it and it might appear to work and you'd be impressed, then never use it again after realizing you could just install Ubuntu. 23:40:17 _3b: it has 23:41:02 But OpenSolaris sometimes puts GNU tools before Solaris tools in path, and that's a BAD THING. Believe me, I was bit by it doing some development on stupid *shell scripts* 23:41:21 My feelings on Ubuntu are complicated. On one hand, it's the only linux my stupid wacom tablet actually works right on out of the box, but on the other hand, overwrought gnome desktops should be purged from the Earth with fire. 23:41:57 welll, there are non-gnome buntus... 23:42:02 hefner: then imagine the second part grafted onto another system that kept itself closer to *nix origins (i.e. GNOME is the only thing that loads weird stuff like HAL etc.) 23:42:07 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:42:29 stepnem: yeah, but then you wonder why you're not just using debian. 23:42:32 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:57 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:43:44 hefner: not really -- Debian uses Gnome by default, no? and other buntus are still more Ubuntu than Debian I'm sure 23:43:47 *stassats* used solaris only once and stepped on the killall 23:43:58 stepnem: debian doesn't use anything by default 23:44:19 -!- pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:44:33 stepnem: well, it opens the question of why ubuntu exists at all, over than for the out of box experience. 23:44:36 pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 23:44:50 p_l: hm... Debians with graphical desktops I've seen were all Gnomes, but my experience is quite limited 23:45:31 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 23:45:33 i think gnome is ok, ubuntu works pretty well out of the box, who wants to spend days configuring computers anyway 23:46:36 <_3b> people who don't like gnome defaults :p 23:46:38 *stassats* spends some time configuring and then using for years 23:46:52 it's almost unusable 23:47:39 hefner from what perspective, it seems to work ok for me :) 23:48:03 Guthur: given my memory usage, GNOME is a non-no 23:48:06 *no-no 23:48:10 the same for KDE 23:48:28 why do you people think I'm writing a memory usage analyzer? ;D 23:48:31 hhh i'm coming from vista so maybe i am more forgiving :) 23:48:46 *_3b* objects to WMs that waste pixels for no reason 23:48:48 Guthur: I consider Vista to be better at memory management :P 23:48:54 KDE wasn't for me 23:49:11 *Sikander* agrees with _3b's pixel-friendly usage 23:49:21 It's just that it's fashionable to bash Vista, without trying to understand. And yes, pixel wasting should be a crime 23:49:25 serious, vista used about x2 the memory and thrashed the harddrive to death, literally actually 23:49:46 over time, i tend to care less and less about memory, pixels, etc. 23:49:49 well the harddrive was probably going to die anyway 23:50:25 but i notice the a distinct lack of hdd activity now compared to vista 23:50:30 stassats: just have one fat title bar on your window, with nice animations? 23:50:48 *sykopomp* likes stumpWM, but has a long wishlist for it. 23:51:20 *Sikander* wonders why a lisp channel keeps discussing window managers and desktops 23:51:28 *antoszka* uses dwm  finds it least obtrusive and requiring least maintenance 23:51:35 Sikander: i tend to like extremities less and less too 23:51:39 p_l i used vista for some time and didn't really bash it, i liked it ok, but now my computer is providing the same with alot less 23:51:54 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 23:51:57 yeah, enough OT, MORE LISP 23:52:05 more talk about stumpwm 23:52:06 ya sorry :) 23:52:18 yeah, stumpwm, is it still maintained? 23:52:27 pretty much 23:52:32 Guthur: If you need windows, I recommend 7. Some more functionality, half memory usage. Just don't trust explorer etc. to show you proper disk usage 23:52:33 is it... stable? 23:52:40 stable enough for me 23:52:42 though, it didn't make a good impression on me 23:52:43 Sikander: AFAIK it's as stable as your config file ;-) 23:52:47 Sikander: pretty much 23:52:49 heheh 23:52:50 plage [n=user@118.71.57.230] has joined #lisp 23:52:54 Good morning. 23:53:07 p_l: in windows 7, do the title bars still look like an amateur photoshop nightmare? 23:53:11 the same can be told about XMonad, except XMonad usually complains on compile 23:53:23 stumpwm is great, but I really want some things implemented in it before I'm genuinely happy with it. 23:53:25 hefner: Dunno, switched to "classic" colorscheme 23:53:29 "this text is unreadable.. I know, I'll spray the airbrush behind it!" 23:53:30 -!- pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:53:31 Just gotta find me some time to refactor the damn thing :P 23:53:37 I no longer remember how it looked :D 23:53:40 <_3b> does it have reliable focus-follows-mouse? that's all i want :/ 23:53:46 sorry one last OT - p_l not sure i will, unless i'm being paid to use it, as in its the platform of my employer, i can't afford the price tag :) 23:53:50 hefner: but the bright colours and child-safe rounded corners are in! Just look and OSX! 23:53:53 _3b: it does, but I turned it off. 23:53:58 :P 23:54:16 sykopomp: ah, you work on stumpwm? 23:54:30 Sikander: not really. I'd like to find some time to, though. 23:54:52 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:54:53 it seems like a tall order to simply hand a laundry list of features that I want and expect the stupm devs to implement them. 23:55:03 specially when some of those seem to be in conflict with what the devs want :P 23:55:15 pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 23:55:21 stumpwm is too ratpoison influenced and doesn't feel lispy to me 23:55:40 perhaps a lisp-wm-from-scratch might be a better choice, then. 23:55:58 I still vote for awesome implemented in lisp 23:55:59 stassats: you should try becoming a theologian 23:56:10 Sikander: we can do better... 23:56:19 there is the eclipse window manager 23:56:19 sykopomp: ok, better than awesome... 23:56:24 ion... 23:56:32 fe[nl]ix: i will consider 23:56:34 What about an oberon-like user interface implemented in lisp? Actually, thinkign of it, it seems to me that Oberon was greatly influenced by Lisp Machine user interface... 23:56:35 oh, wait, I'm talking at the tiling wm folk again 23:56:35 we can do better than ion too... 23:56:45 hefner: isn't eclipse dead? 23:56:51 sykopomp, if so, I'll use it ;) 23:56:58 Sikander: isn't lisp dead? 23:57:03 *_3b* should try eclipse 23:57:04 lisp is dead 23:57:09 I mean 23:57:11 LISP is dead 23:57:14 Long live Lisp! 23:57:16 nah, it just smells funny 23:57:20 He's dead, Jim! 23:58:16 pjb: I think Plan9 is actually quite close to Oberon, except you know, more practical ;-) 23:58:20 But if we're gonna make a wm in lisp, shouldn't we then use xcb? 23:58:30 xcb?... 23:58:36 instead of xlib 23:58:41 Lisp's dead: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/dead-lambda.png 23:58:53 Sikander: "we" don't use xlib 23:59:00 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E168.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:59:06 stassats: What do "we" use? 23:59:15 minion: clx? 23:59:16 clx: CLX is to Common Lisp as Xlib is to C - it provides low-level X calls on top of which a Graphics Toolkit can be based. http://www.cliki.net/clx 23:59:18 *Sikander* wants to learn the secret handshake. 23:59:30 stassats: sure, but clx uses xlib, right? 23:59:42 xcb is part of the freedesktop/gnome "let's reimplement everything!" cancer 23:59:46 Sikander: no