00:00:14 imho 00:01:25 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:01:46 never the less I will enjoy my lisp hobby. even if there is nothing worth making, that i can think of anyway :| 00:02:04 <_3b> make game development tools :) 00:02:38 Guthur: I still don't know exactly what to make in lisp, so I just decided to make a lisp while I figure out something to do. :) 00:03:33 Quadrescence "i'll make the the tool though i know not what to do with it" 00:03:39 brilliant :) 00:03:44 Yes. ;) 00:04:09 making tools is always fun 00:04:53 like slime 00:05:08 and even better when you can do it without actually know what its for :p 00:05:08 *hefner* has no shortage of project ideas, but would probably be back to not knowing what to do for a while if he switched languages 00:05:34 is there a Lisp mode for vim? 00:05:40 *hefner* fears most tools never get used properly 00:05:50 RamzaB: there is vim mode for emacs 00:05:51 (or at all) 00:06:03 RamzaB: look for Nekthuth or something like that 00:06:08 emacs sucks 00:06:10 alright thanks 00:06:12 Yay nekthuth! 00:06:23 hefner ya that was kind of my original though 00:06:24 RamzaB: "limp" I think. And <3 emacs 00:06:26 thought* 00:06:35 RamzaB: Saying "Emacs sucks" in this channel is like death wish? :D 00:06:45 *hefner* doesn't understand why people recommend a vim mode for emacs. No emacs user would switch to vim because someone said "there's an emacs mode for it" 00:06:48 alot of features aren't useful because no one actually uses them 00:06:50 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@80.135.170.97] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:06:54 why? because people use emacs-lisp? 00:07:16 RamzaB: no, because that isn't the answer they wanted. 00:07:19 hefner: if this "emacs mode for vim" also included emacs lisp, then I would consider it 00:07:58 RamzaB hhh no, a app that doesn't need an enigma machine to decode is not a feature its a requirement ;) 00:08:10 Guthur: if you are writing tools not for yourself 00:08:18 <_3b> hefner: dunno, if there was some other feature of vim i wanted, emacs UI compatibility would be useful :) 00:11:03 -!- mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:12:02 i'd actually think i'd like emacs, if i could memorise all the key chords 00:13:31 <_3b> ok, let's try this again with some swap enabled... 00:13:57 Guthur, if you're lacking in goals, I have plenty for you... 00:14:29 instead of its shoddy attempt at vi compatibility, emacs evangelism should stick to emacs' strengths, like the 72 virgins in heaven after death 00:15:11 uh-oh 00:16:17 i think slime could tried to retain some standard in its debugger keys, abort being anything from 1-3 is a little annoying 00:16:35 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 00:16:54 Guthur: try "q" 00:16:55 Guthur: I think you can rely on being able to hit 'q' and having it do something useful. I've made the same complaint, that's what slimepeoples suggested to me. 00:17:02 Guthur: that's not slime's doing. All slime does is present the restarts offered by the implementation in the order chosen by the implementation. 00:17:17 <_3b> C for Continue restarts is also useful to know 00:17:48 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:54 q will do the trick thanks :) 00:17:59 slime is one of those tools where almost nobody knows its full set of features 00:18:33 *hefner* imagines a video doing the ABCs of slime, in the style of sesame street 00:18:58 lol i think have that video 00:19:16 i;m while bad at being passive though, never watch video any more 00:19:20 saikat__ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 00:19:28 it's not in sesame style 00:19:42 Guthur: me too. I prefer to read links from reddit for hours on end. 00:19:54 nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:05 Hello all. 00:20:18 lol no its just a normal video 00:20:38 i forgot about the seaseme street part 00:20:50 sesame* 00:21:10 that's crucial, otherwise no one will get it 00:21:39 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 00:21:53 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [] 00:21:56 *nyef* suspects that he doesn't want to know. 00:22:09 nyef: it's "The ABCs of SLIME" 00:22:52 "Todays video was brought to you by the letters S, B, C and L, and by the number 1.0.29." 00:24:03 is there a common way to implement memoization in common lisp? 00:24:17 with hash tables. 00:24:26 nyef: hi 00:24:39 p_l: Hello. 00:24:53 pkhuong: but perhaps there is a library which will do it transparently for me? 00:25:11 *stassats`* uses some 5-line macro 00:25:23 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 00:25:31 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:26:15 saikat_ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 00:26:17 minion: memoize? 00:26:18 memoize: Memoize is a small library for performing memoization. http://www.cliki.net/memoize 00:26:19 if the SBCL guys would step up the pace and get to version 3.0, they could rename it "Antimony Chloride". 00:26:21 HET2: the macros are so small and the options so vast that I just write exactly the version I need for each project. 00:27:10 pjb: thanks 00:28:21 Quadrescence are you creating a lisp interpreter then? 00:28:22 -!- saikat__ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:28:25 -!- g06|in [n=Spitfire@cpe-71-74-84-48.insight.res.rr.com] has quit ["Bye"] 00:28:35 TDT [n=TDT@126.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:52 Guthur: And a bytecode optimizing compiler 00:29:40 how complex is it 00:30:04 -!- TDT [n=TDT@126.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:30:20 serious. i know its not going to be simple, just an honest evaluation 00:30:48 What on earth do you even use for a metric? 00:30:52 It probably is more-or-less equivalent to Scheme's R5RS right now with a foreign function interface. 00:31:58 TDT [n=TDT@126.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:03 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:32:06 (equivalent in terms of what kind of things you can do---some syntax and other things are not included, and I stole CL constructs where I felt the need to) 00:32:10 this will sound pretty crazy, but would it be possible in....javascript 00:32:39 Hm? 00:32:45 saikat__ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 00:33:30 never mind, its late and my mind is wandering :) 00:33:39 <_3b> javascript is turing complete, so just a question of how much work you want to do/how much speed you need :) 00:34:17 -!- sellout [n=greg@24.128.50.176] has quit [] 00:34:28 is there something like Godwin's law, but about Turing completeness? 00:34:34 there ought to be. 00:35:07 I wrote this a bit earlier today, to try and get the output of an executable to a variable name, and while it works pretty well I wonder if maybe it could be improved: http://paste.lisp.org/display/81613 it does work, though, which I'm happy of, at least. 00:35:13 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-156-213.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:35:54 sellout [n=greg@24.128.50.176] has joined #lisp 00:36:12 <_3b> are you just trying to get teh output as a string, or are you processing it some there? 00:36:43 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:36:46 saikat_ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 00:36:50 For now, just output to a string, including the newlines - eventually I'll deal with the output, but this right now is just an exercise in understanding how to do it in small chunks. 00:37:15 Eventually this will translate into a git-interface through lisp, which will parse the output of the commands for errors and all. 00:37:19 (defun get-output (cmd args) (with-output-to-string (stream) (sb-ext:run-program cmd args :output stream :search t))) 00:37:48 i don't like the idea of using a hash for memoizing because i may run out of memory if i store every result - i'll need a strategy to remove cached records 00:37:58 dys [n=andreas@p5B31662B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:10 stassats`: Hmm, I did read about with-output-to-string, but I like your idea of abstraction there, and totally missed just writing a wrapper like what you're doing. 00:38:53 stassats`: Thanks for that, much better than what i was writing, heh. Still trying to wrap my mind around the lisp way of thinking, after 2 books so far (PCL and Object Oriented Programming in CL). 00:39:14 books won't help, you ought to write some code 00:40:03 HET2: and you think that a generic library can do that for you? 00:40:16 pkhuong: probably not :) 00:40:19 -!- spec[away] [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["BB!"] 00:40:32 Yeah, I am trying to do a few more projects here and there on stuff that makes sense, and am learning quite a bit from them. The problem I'm having now is I find one concept that helps out, but finding the tricks to make it easy to use is kinda beyond me at this point. Well, that's kinda why I'm still asking for opinions on random code bits, but still...not sure the best way to close that gap of knowledge that I have so far. 00:41:44 TDT if you ever round out of things to question or lookup, you just aren't trying any more ;) 00:41:45 read others code? 00:41:50 round/ run out 00:42:34 read books, write code, read code, repeat 00:43:47 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:44:22 saikat___ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 00:44:57 stassats`: Yeah, the reading code thing is something I probably need to do more often. I've been doing that to find examples of how to use certain concepts, but finding good code for lisp has been a challenge. I'll have to try google's code search, had a bit more luck through there than other places. 00:45:36 Guthur: That's true, but TBH I spent hours searching for stuff before I get something that works on some stuff right now. It's a pretty big drain on time, even though I do learn a bit more than I otherwise would have. 00:46:37 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["leaving"] 00:47:38 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:48:55 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 00:51:05 -!- saikat__ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:53:23 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:18 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-182.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 00:54:36 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-182.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 00:57:26 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:59:31 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:04:17 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:05:46 Is there a recommended base64 library out there? We tried cl-base64, but it has encode problems (ie (decode (encode "*")) is "P" instead of "*") 01:05:59 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:07:06 actual paste: (base64-string-to-usb8-array (usb8-array-to-base64-string #(42))) returns #(80) 01:07:54 return 42 for me 01:08:09 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:09:13 on clisp it works, but not sbcl 01:09:19 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.132.189] has joined #lisp 01:09:37 Phoodus: it works here: (base64:base64-string-to-string (base64:string-to-base64-string "*")) => "*" 01:09:54 are you sure #(42) is usb8? 01:10:09 oh, you're using base64, not cl-base64? 01:10:12 I'm sure it isn't 01:10:23 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-2358869b6f0a58dc] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:10:31 usb8-array = unsigned byte 8 array 01:10:34 #() syntax produces T vectors, not unsigned-byte ones 01:10:41 this might or might not matter 01:10:43 Phoodus: it's nickname of cl-base64 01:10:49 Phoodus: I'm using cl-base64 01:10:57 hmm 01:12:37 we're not using string-to-base64-string, we are working with vectors 01:12:48 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 01:13:03 so fe[nl]ix, does the line with #(42) work for you? 01:14:05 Phoodus: is (base64-string-to-usb8-array (usb8-array-to-base64-string (coerce #(42) '(simple-array (unsigned-byte 64) (*))))) working? 01:14:13 s/64/8/ 01:14:24 Phoodus: yes 01:15:03 stassats`: and that one does work 01:15:20 it's probably the optimizations, cl-base64 throws a TON of warnings about forced optimizations under sbcl 01:16:12 it doesn't throw an error because of optimizations 01:16:17 merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:38 evening all 01:16:54 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-4-1.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 01:17:09 so basically, it's up to us to make sure our input exactly matches its expected input, because cl-base64 forces a bunch of stuff that it probably shouldn't? 01:17:29 sbcl claims that cl-base64's type assertions are incorrect during load 01:17:37 so we're really not trusting it much anyway 01:18:11 Given this, why not write your own base64 decoder? 01:18:24 why would I roll my own? 01:18:31 I'm on the clock here 01:18:37 this isn't just musing hackery 01:19:09 because you don't trust existing? 01:19:23 I don't trust that specific implementation, because it tries to be overly clever 01:19:45 and thus, doesn't compile clean 01:19:56 It's not "not invented here" syndrome, it's "doesn't work" syndrome :) 01:21:36 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:21:41 i don't see a type assertion failures on sbcl 01:23:30 if you want more safety, you can remove all (safety 0) from it 01:24:03 or (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'safety 1) 01:24:20 I just want something to actually work out of the box, and across different Lisps without platform specifics 01:25:02 cl-base64 work fine, if you don't fool it 01:25:21 (with wrong types) 01:25:26 !paste 01:25:33 where's the paste url? 01:25:42 in the topic 01:25:44 lisppaste: url? 01:25:45 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 01:26:01 Phoodus pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81616 01:26:27 -!- justin` [n=justin@ip24-250-39-58.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:26:41 Phoodus: now, where is type assertion failures? 01:26:53 This is stock sbcl, with no funky compiler config, just a plain asdf load 01:27:15 I never said failures, I said warnings 01:27:23 i see only optimization hints 01:28:23 When the compiler feels the need to tell me it's being forced to do stuff it wouldn't normally do, and then it doesn't even work when used in the simple case, I consider that a bit worse than a "hint" 01:28:44 Phoodus: these *ARE* things it normally does 01:28:58 It just doesn't tell you about them because you don't usually use a high SPEED optimization 01:29:22 under those conditions it tells you about places it can't use faster-but-less-generic code 01:29:34 I just looked at your entire paste: *all* of that is harmless 01:29:48 you want to see a type asserion failure? here is one: (compile nil '(lambda (foo) (declare (string foo)) (+ foo 10))) 01:29:48 but it _is_ using faster-but-less-generic code because it can't convert the vector types, and just returns incorrect data 01:30:09 it's telling you those parts of the code are *slow*, not that they're *incorrect* 01:30:14 Phoodus: er, you don't know that. 01:30:49 there's also such things as e.g. making a displaced array with a different element type 01:30:51 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-220-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:01 I'm curious where it turned a "*" into a "P" 01:32:21 and without any warnings 01:32:41 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:41 try giving it an unsigned-byte array 01:32:50 that does work, like I said 01:33:01 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:33:14 it's probably using unsafe code with type assertions then 01:33:18 or a displaced arry 01:33:19 you can't have speed and safety at the same time, you want safety? remove (safety 0) 01:33:22 it's trivial 01:33:25 _I_ didnt' specify anything 01:33:34 or write a safe wrapper function 01:33:46 that checks the type before calling the unsafe one. 01:33:54 clhs check-type 01:33:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_check_.htm 01:33:58 or use a different lib, which was my original question 01:37:25 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:43:02 -!- merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:43:04 oudeis [n=oudeis@217.194.205.196] has joined #lisp 01:43:45 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 01:45:02 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:17 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:49:58 -!- Yuuhi` [n=user@p5483E048.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:52:00 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@207.88.215.11.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:20 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-110.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:03:36 -!- Jasko3 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:04:33 -!- Aleister_Crowley is now known as dalton 02:05:09 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-138-193-165.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 02:06:44 -!- RamzaB [n=lobomonh@ip72-197-207-250.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [] 02:06:55 *p_l* tries loading some old CLIM-based code into SBCL 02:08:19 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:58 -!- dalton [n=ebsjux@189-19-118-199.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit ["Eject firefox lady n.u.-> (www.cyberscript.org)"] 02:10:26 i have sudden feeling that loading it into OpenGenera might have been easier 02:12:01 depends whether you had Open Genera already configured or not 02:12:05 (what a mess) 02:12:29 hefner: I have a working, "unofficial" install 02:13:20 its unofficial status is one of the reasons I prefer not to use it for anything serious (outside of constant crashing) 02:13:49 I tried setting that up a month or two ago and never got the last kinks out of it. Aside from being slow as hell, the real macivory in the closet works and feels much better. 02:14:10 pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has joined #lisp 02:15:38 slow? at least in theory, what I configured should have speed factor >20 02:15:58 reparse plz 02:16:25 there were those "speed factors" for comparing relative speed of Symbolics LispMachines 02:16:33 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:16:49 *hefner* slames head against the glass 02:16:59 no, meant the macivory was slow. 02:17:19 Right. parse error here 02:17:46 must be that 0316 on the clock ^^; 02:18:16 still, I'll straighten it out sooner or later. it's a bit spooky without the keyboard overlay, though. lots of things mapped to random function keys. 02:19:53 yeah, I had problems figuring out keys on OG as well 02:20:03 every time i tried OG on linux it ended in frustration and deletion of everything 02:20:31 dalton [n=ebsjux@189-19-118-199.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 02:20:59 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-116-145.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:43 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:22:47 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:22:58 I keep it around, but snap4 could use some patches, and I only have a binary 02:23:00 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:23:06 It'd work better as a preconfigured vmware image. I hate enabling all the NFS garbage on my machine anyway, and would prefer it just used an LMFS image file like a real lispm. 02:23:12 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.253.81] has joined #lisp 02:23:21 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-34-132.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:24:25 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 02:25:49 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:25:52 amblerc [n=user@24-180-81-97.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:29:03 maybe they wanted to make it as actual emulator of LispM... 02:30:00 Phoodus pasted "fails in sbcl 1.0.28" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81620 02:30:13 Can somebody with 1.0.29 on linux test to make sure this works? 02:30:31 erm, to see if this is still a bug in the new version? 02:30:52 We reduced our crash cause to the simplest form 02:30:53 confirmed 02:31:08 it took a few seconds to die with the stack error 02:31:38 stassats`: so it spins indefinitely with no crash? 02:32:03 i mean, bug confirmed 02:32:06 <_3b> ldb here min 1.0.29.4 x86_64 02:32:13 <_3b> *in 02:32:54 <_3b> (running from slime, not shell) 02:33:34 hey, neat. 02:34:36 *hefner* hands Phoodus a loop 02:34:55 we wanted the simplest form, the real code is (while (not exit-flag) ...) 02:34:59 which expands into a do 02:35:24 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.132.189] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:35:43 crashes on sbcl 1.0.29 and on 1.0.23 02:35:45 okay, I'm just saying that the simple form of loop is an easier way to write an infinite loop 02:35:54 Phoodus: so, report it 02:36:06 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-110.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:36:10 Hello, may I please have 1 kilo of parens please? 02:36:10 i write all my control structures with tagbody directly 02:36:14 only good way to do it 02:36:48 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.118.116] has joined #lisp 02:37:42 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.118.116] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 02:37:57 <_3b> heh, use LOOP instead of DO, and it still broke, but in such a way that it kept allocating memory... glad i turned on swap earlier :p 02:38:18 huh. I changed it to loop, and it crashed in just the same way. 02:40:15 <_3b> seems variable, got a different crash that time 02:40:20 it's the combination of multiple-value-bind and ignore-errors 02:40:28 as far as we can tell 02:41:18 Quadrescence: M-1024 ) 02:41:24 <_3b> sldb 6 levels deep 'recursive lock attempt' ... 02:41:48 <_3b> (and ldb in *inferior-lisp* 02:42:33 amblerc: Thank you sir. :D 02:42:37 *hefner* disassembles, is impressed at the pages of code SBCL can generate to do absolutely nothing 02:43:25 *_3b* has tried to implement some of that 'nothing', so won't complain about that :) 02:43:52 *_3b* doesn't even have conditions yet 02:44:13 you and the rest of the world. 02:44:34 <_3b> hopefully i'll be able to add them at some point, so there is at least hope :) 02:46:46 Jasko3 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:18 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:59 yeah, there's a problem with nested ignore errors (or other condition handlers), iirc. 02:49:00 -!- amblerc [n=user@24-180-81-97.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:50:44 but they're not nested 02:51:00 anyway, yet another freaking site to register to in order to report a bug 02:51:13 email to sbcl-bugs? 02:51:18 with no subscribtion? 02:51:25 yeah, what's the new procedure? don't default to hassling sbcl-devel anymore? 02:51:40 oh, well, I'm on the launchpad.net bug tracker 02:51:41 (should I read the documentation? probably. nevermind.) 02:52:00 hefner: there would be no problem with sbcl-devel, at least 02:52:20 Can Hunchentoot handle thousands of requests? 02:53:40 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:04 hefner annotated #81620 "leaky leak" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81620#1 02:56:13 although I guess not leak in the sense of not being recovered upon return (unlike that fun alien stack business a while back) 02:57:52 consume, really. horde. stockpile. amass. 02:58:10 <_3b> hoard? 02:58:17 yeah, sorry. weird. 02:58:27 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.118.116] has joined #lisp 02:58:42 *hefner* administers six lashings 02:59:16 Phoodus: they're nested in that there's no return between them. 03:03:06 benbelly [n=ben@cpe-74-67-149-169.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:03:38 -!- benbelly [n=ben@cpe-74-67-149-169.rochester.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 03:04:18 pkhuong: I'm not seeing anything related when searching for ignore-errors or condition handlers in the bug database, so I'm going to report it anyway 03:04:41 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-110.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:05:14 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@70.237.122.129] has joined #lisp 03:05:47 -!- dalton [n=ebsjux@189-19-118-199.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit ["Eject ZZZzzzZZ (www.cyberscript.org)"] 03:06:03 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:06:27 -!- hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [] 03:07:28 -!- salex` [n=user@216.80.147.206] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:07:33 <_3b> random poking around suggests using dynamic-extend instead of truly-dynamic-extent in sb-int::dx-let helps, no idea what other effects that has though :) 03:08:46 <_3b> (spelling dynamic-extent correctly is probably helpful too) 03:08:59 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:10:53 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.128.94.58] has joined #lisp 03:13:22 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.128.94.58] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:14:37 *sykopomp* just got back from the twin cities lisp meeting 03:16:08 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-31-177.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:16:19 sykopomp: Have fun? 03:17:19 nyef: it was wonderful :) 03:17:24 lots of really nice, very interesting people. 03:17:34 I think I like the overall atmosphere better, too. 03:17:40 Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:07 a pair of ruby people showed up, too 03:18:24 they left, though ;) 03:19:27 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:29 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 03:20:10 pkhuong: breaking out the (ignore-errors ...) stuff to a separate function fixed it, thank you VERY much! 03:20:26 (also reported that workaround to the bug report) 03:25:29 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-135-152.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:34 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:29:48 Right, time I got some sleep. 03:29:51 -!- nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 03:33:44 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@207.88.215.13.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:08 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@207.88.215.13.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:34:09 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit 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domiel [n=dnj@58.172.210.231] has joined #lisp 05:21:49 pfhaust [n=mike@c-71-227-167-254.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:32 -!- eno_ is now known as eno 05:23:43 ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 05:24:04 hello 05:24:12 a neeed a heap data strucutre, is there something like that integated in common lisp? 05:24:46 not in the standard, no. 05:25:11 what data structures are there apart from lists? 05:25:27 trees 05:25:28 :) 05:25:28 weird 05:25:29 arrays and vectors 05:25:39 the practical common lisp SLIME key chords are all wrong 05:25:46 hmm 05:25:50 oh now that everybody is talking 05:25:57 Ralith: ? 05:25:57 uh so I decided to learn lisp this summer 05:26:06 ruepel0r: hash tables too 05:26:08 sykopomp: ? 05:26:15 Ralith: example? 05:26:24 and my dilemma is I don't understand how to do any of the control structures in lisp 05:26:26 in SLIME you can check a macro's expansion by placing the cursor on the opening parenthesis of a macro form in your source code and typing C-c RET to invoke the Emacs function slime-macroexpand-1, which will pass the macro form to MACROEXPAND-1 and "pretty print" the result in a temporary buffer. 05:26:37 anothergit: you mean IF? :P 05:26:42 slime sez: C-c RET is undefined 05:26:52 like I understasnd all of the lisp and functional ideals like stateless and concurrancy and such 05:27:08 anothergit: you must be confused. This is Common Lisp. 05:27:13 <_3b> Ralith: works here, sure you are in slime mode? 05:27:19 which clearly has neither functional ideals, nor does it have concurrency. 05:27:28 sykopomp, my next question was would I have an easier time learning scheme or clojure 05:27:30 sykopomp: ssshh! 05:27:31 _3b: I'm in the slime repl; does it get any slimier than that? 05:27:42 anothergit: oh, you're a troll. 05:27:48 take it to #flood. 05:27:52 sykopomp, ... 05:28:08 anothergit: what kind of control structure are you looking for? 05:28:09 <_3b> Ralith: yeah, should work there 05:28:11 anothergit: /topic 05:28:13 anyway, lisp tutorial with examples is what I am looking for 05:28:15 _3b: doesn't. 05:28:42 Ralith: worksforme 05:28:47 <_3b> Ralith: does F1 k C-c RET say anything helpful? 05:28:59 "... is undefined" 05:29:00 that's like how I've learnt other languages, but I've just seen a lot of lisp tutorials that just talk about the functional differences between c and lisp 05:29:18 that what I was trying to say by "I don't know lisp control structures: 05:29:19 it's never being bound 05:29:25 anothergit: scheme, clojure, and common lisp are completely different languages. 05:29:34 do I need something special in my .emacs? 05:29:38 is there another equal efficient way to insert a single element in a sorted list, that the list is sorted after insert? 05:29:53 anothergit: do you know how to program anything? 05:30:03 equal efficient to using a heap 05:30:21 sykopomp, course. Lisp was just my "language of the summer" project or whatever 05:30:55 like I said, clojure, common lisp, and scheme are different languages :) 05:30:58 _3b: do I need special init code to get the keybinds or something? 05:30:59 <_3b> Ralith: possbibly (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) if you don't have that (which you should for other reasons anyway) 05:31:01 it's like comparing C to Java 05:31:03 anyways 05:31:07 if you actually know how to program... 05:31:09 _3b: I've got that 05:31:16 minion: please tell anothergit about that-dead-sexy-book 05:31:17 anothergit: please look at that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 05:31:30 yay that's what I was looking for 05:31:42 if that's too dense, try... 05:31:51 minion: please tell anothergit about gentle 05:31:52 anothergit: please see gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 05:32:14 PCL too dense? O.o 05:32:16 sykopomp, I do have an ebook of that one but I was looking for a more example-laden book 05:32:32 anothergit: PCL is what you want then. 05:32:42 Ralith: it was too dense for me when I started :) 05:32:44 yeah I skimmed through that and it looked like what I need 05:32:52 alright thanks 05:32:59 PCL isn't exactly easy reading when you have -no idea- how to do anything. 05:33:01 sykopomp, sorry we got off to a bad start there 05:33:02 heh 05:33:15 anothergit: ;) 05:33:23 anothergit: and if you have questions, feel free to ask them here. 05:33:29 sykopomp: er, not to be rude, but did you start with no programming experience or something? 05:33:30 alright I sahll 05:33:41 *shall 05:33:45 <_3b> Ralith: does it at least show up in the menu bar? 05:33:46 anothergit: examples of control structures: dotimes, dolist, the loop macro (which does virtually everything), tagbody/go, catch/throw, handler-case/handler-bind, signal/error/warn, etc., or for a more functional flavor, functions like map, map-into, reduce, some, every, and a dozen or two other list and sequence functions. 05:33:49 Ralith: I took a comp sci 101 class in python 05:33:52 and then I learned lisp. 05:33:55 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-15-106.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:34:06 that's pretty much it. I didn't learn much from the python class except "hey, this is fun" 05:34:14 _3b: menu bar? I can run the function with M-x slime-macroexpand-1 05:34:23 sykopomp: ah, okay. 05:34:43 Ralith: that was about a year ago now :) 05:35:02 so don't take anything I say seriously. I don't know what I'm talking about. 05:35:04 did you find lisp to be a good starting language? I've been debating recommending it to a friend who's teaching himself C as a first language right now. 05:35:09 <_3b> Ralith: hmm, guess it probably exists then :) try C-c C-m maybe? 05:35:13 lisp was amazing as a starting language. 05:35:23 _3b: C-c RET is undefined 05:35:31 sykopomp: amazing? 05:35:38 yeah. It wasn't bad at all. 05:35:42 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 05:35:58 amazing suggests a bit more than 'not bad' 05:36:09 <_3b> Ralith: no idea then :( 05:36:13 _3b: Hrm. 05:36:14 you kidding? It was great. I love lisp. 05:36:31 sykopomp: I was hoping for a little elaboration, 'sall 05:36:36 no worries 05:36:45 I feel like lisp taught me a lot of things I wouldn't have learned otherwise. 05:37:08 and I was never bothered by the parentheses, or any of that garbage people bring up. 05:37:28 makes sense. 05:37:31 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 05:37:39 *Ralith* always imagined the parenthesis complaints are just on the basis of unfamiliarity 05:37:45 so I usually look at all that crap with skepticism. In my mind, if I was a complete idiot nublar, and all that stuff didn't get in the way of programming what I wanted, then it's clearly not a valid point. 05:37:50 <_3b> Ralith: all i can think of is try new(er) slime, or maybe different emacs versions, or skipping init emacs files (except the slime bits) 05:38:14 _3b: I'll grab slime CVS at some point, and if that breaks still I'll strip down my .emacs 05:38:17 thanks 05:38:28 sykopomp: interesting; I think I'll point the friend this way. 05:38:30 thanks 05:38:45 Ralith: YMMV. I am also a very strange person in general. 05:39:07 normal people make boring friends ^^ 05:39:11 My undergrad was in film, for example. I didn't touch programming until senior year. 05:40:31 minion: chant 05:40:33 MORE THAN 05:40:58 mindCrime [n=chatzill@cpe-076-182-103-085.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:42:56 how can i find out how the sort function is implemented? 05:43:26 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:43:35 ruepel0r: read the sources for your lisp implementation. 05:44:07 do i have to download it explicitly or should it be already anywhere? (using clisp) 05:44:21 you may have to download it explicitly... 05:44:27 ok 05:44:29 I don't know how one usually gets access to clisp sources. 05:48:45 when i pass a list to a function, is the list copied, or just (first . rest) ? 05:49:06 You pass a reference to the list by value. 05:49:18 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-116-145.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 05:49:28 That is, the function receives the object, not a copy of the object. 05:49:28 ok 05:49:44 And the function cannot affect the binding that you passed. 05:50:50 ok, i want to alter the list within the function 05:50:56 so it should be fine 05:51:07 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has left #lisp 05:59:25 what's the reason: "(setq list1 '(a b c)) 05:59:25 (setq list2 (append '(list2element) list1)) 05:59:25 (setq list1 '(new)) 05:59:25 (print list2) ; why is list2 not (list2element new)?" 05:59:35 don't use setq 06:00:15 ruepel0r: append does not alter the list. It conses up a new one. 06:00:58 <_3b> setq modifies the binding list1, not the list bound to list1 06:01:00 but the i thought the last cons cell stays the same 06:01:05 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 06:01:12 _3b, what to use instead? 06:01:19 -!- sexybaaron [n=sexybaar@c-68-42-43-61.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:01:21 <_3b> what are you trying to do? 06:01:34 list2 should be (list2element new) 06:01:44 i want to change list2 implicitly, with changing list1 06:01:51 ew 06:01:57 (because the last part of list2 points to list1) 06:02:15 it is not an actual application, i just try to step behind it 06:02:20 try (push 'new list2) 06:02:23 <_3b> no, it points to the list bound to list1 (subtle distinctions) 06:02:37 ok 06:02:47 <_3b> try (setf (car list1) 'new) for example 06:02:53 how can i change the list bound to list1 instead of chaning list1 (what setq does) 06:03:00 that sounds obvious 06:03:03 thank you 06:03:32 -!- jlf [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-67.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:03:41 <_3b> and i guess to get list2 to be what you want, you would also need (setf (cdr list1) nil) 06:03:55 but the (setf (car list1) 'new) changes just the car and keeps the cadr, do i have to set.. 06:03:58 Another option would be to use a closure that has captured that binding. 06:03:58 ok that's what i wanted to ask 06:04:12 Zhivago, can you explain it further? 06:04:25 I think at this point in your learning experience, you should just be told that you're doing something you really shouldn't be doing :P 06:04:27 (foo (lambda (v) (setf my-list v))) 06:04:44 _3b, what happens with the elements a b and c after setting the cdr to nil? the get carbage collected automatically? 06:04:48 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 06:04:58 s/the/they 06:05:03 <_3b> right, assuming nothing else refers to them 06:05:39 sykopomp, the point is that i just want to understand it, i know that i actually should not do it. 06:05:57 what's a proper way to isnert an element with random access in a list instead of handling with setf? 06:06:08 ruepel0r: you're altering symbol values, not the values. 06:06:34 sykopomp, no idea what you mean 06:06:41 (setf (elt list index) value) ? 06:07:05 but that replaces just the cdr of the elt element? 06:07:11 ruepel0r: do you want to -insert- an element at a random point in the list, or do you want to alter a certain index within the list? 06:07:19 -insert- 06:07:26 merge two lists together. 06:07:44 split the list at the index you want, keep the car/cdr around, then slap them around a new cons cell. 06:07:49 tada! insertio. 06:07:50 n 06:07:54 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has joined #lisp 06:08:30 what does merge? that sounds so computationally complex 06:08:34 using merge, to insert an element 06:10:00 try using (append (car original-list) (list my-new-item) (cdr original-list)) 06:10:38 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:10:45 err 06:10:46 but append is not destructive 06:10:51 (list (car ...)) 06:11:01 that's fine 06:11:04 no 06:11:09 i don't want to make copies 06:11:19 just extending a list that already exists 06:11:24 i think setf is what i want 06:11:32 hrm 06:12:00 (push new-element (nthcdr (1- index) list)) ;notice index>0 06:12:20 if you want to insert before the 0th element, then just (push new-element list) 06:13:01 is push destructive? 06:13:10 Yes. 06:13:29 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-37.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:13:40 ok that sounds good 06:13:45 no struggling with setf 06:14:04 hehehe 06:14:17 where can i get an offline version for a common lisp reference? 06:14:28 ruepel0r: try (macroexpand-1 '(push foo bar)) ;) 06:14:29 From lispworks.com 06:14:38 Push destructively updates a binding -- not an object. 06:14:39 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:14:58 ok, so it is not what i want (i just read that it has no side effects) 06:15:03 Zhivago: not a binding, a place. 06:15:07 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:15:12 A place can be a slot in an object. 06:16:00 Well, those are bindings, but place is more correct. 06:16:17 ok the macroexpand tells me all i need 06:16:46 ruepel0r: you should check clhs, macrexpand results are implementation dependant. 06:16:48 clhs push 06:16:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_push.htm 06:17:21 i already checked, and it tells me that it has no side-effects 06:17:50 ruepel0r: and modifying a place is not a side effect? 06:18:12 i don't exactly know what a place is 06:18:41 uh, i read it wrong at lispworks 06:18:52 ruep: A place is a notion of where you can find stuff. 06:19:00 like a cons cell? 06:19:08 ruep: For example, (let ((a 10)) ...) a is a place. 06:19:20 ruepel0r: like the cdr of a cons cell. 06:19:26 (car (cons a b)) is a place, too. 06:20:10 place = something i can set using setq? 06:20:11 Not all forms like that are places -- it requires some additional support. 06:20:23 No, setq only operates on lexical variables -- use setf 06:20:24 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:20:29 ruepel0r: setf, not setq 06:20:38 ok 06:21:05 setq works on any symbol, not only lexical variables. Also special variables, and symbol macros (in which case it falls back to setf). 06:21:38 Only for the case where they happen to be the appropriate lexical variable. 06:21:51 Always. 06:22:06 (defvar *x*) (setq *x* 42) *x* --> 42 06:22:38 Astoundingly, if we look at the lexical scope, which variable do we find associated with *x* there? 06:22:42 (define-symbol-macro x (car *x*)) (setq *x* (cons 1 2)) (setq x 42) *x* --> (42 . 2) 06:22:46 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 06:23:19 Zhivago: you have to find the variable associated with *x* in the dynamic scope, not the lexical scope. 06:23:27 Since *x* is special. 06:23:44 The dynamic binding of *x* is part of the lexical scope. 06:24:01 Of course not. 06:24:07 i think that is going to far for me 06:24:07 too 06:24:26 (defun f () (setq *x* 42)) (let ((*x* 0)) (f) *x*) -> 42 06:24:28 i have no idea what a symbol macro is 06:24:58 pjb: It finds out that it is a special binding by looking at the lexical scope -- does this make more sense? 06:24:58 ruepel0r: no problem, you'll learn it later. 06:25:25 Ok, but that's quite irrelevant here. Since it's true for everything. 06:25:41 ok, so i will just ignore it, first 06:26:11 setq was always kind of magic for me 06:26:18 because it does more then expected 06:26:59 Start with 'set', then if you like. 06:27:17 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Time to die... eh... sleep"] 06:27:22 (And then you'll find out why it isn't true for everything). 06:27:48 -!- pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 06:27:50 i just use it to manipulate that what a symbol is bound to 06:27:51 Notice that (setq x v) > (set (quote x) v) 06:27:51 i.e. to change the binding of a symbol 06:27:58 (i hope my expression is right) 06:28:18 i know the setq and set quote stuff 06:28:18 pjb: !!! So that's why it's called setq!!! 06:28:20 !!!!!!!! 06:28:39 where shall i read about it? pcb? 06:28:57 sykopomp: setq does more than set quote. setq can work also on lexical variables and on symbol macros. set can only work on special variables. 06:29:01 pjb: (let ((a 10)) (set 'a 11) a) 06:29:24 Try it! 06:29:42 It's a good demonstration of why thinking of (setfq x v) as (set (quote x) v) is a bad idea. 06:29:52 Yes, my point. 06:30:14 Zhivago, the output 10 is unexpected for me 06:30:17 why is it 10? 06:30:29 rue: Because set doesn't operate on lexical variables. 06:30:36 Because (set 'a 11) == (setf (symbol-value 'a) 11) 06:30:41 ruepel0r: SET is archaic, use (setf (symbol-value 'foo) 42); this also makes any confusion go away 06:30:54 (symbol-value 'a) is the place of the value of the special variable named A. 06:31:35 instead of understanding i get confused more and more 06:31:48 Ignore us more and more :-) 06:32:10 i remember: "setq is special" 06:32:11 and 06:32:16 "set uses setf with symbol-value" 06:32:35 is that right? 06:33:25 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:33:49 ruepel0r: For a start, do you know the difference between lexical and special variables? 06:34:07 [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.69] has joined #lisp 06:34:14 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:34:15 no 06:34:15 ruepel0r: it could be true: it's an implementation detail. But my equivalence give the semantics of SET. 06:34:42 ruepel0r: Then I suggest to read through the book Practical Common Lisp. 06:35:21 lexical and dynamic variables? 06:35:32 uh oh 06:35:36 ruepel0r: read a book. 06:35:59 sykopomp, i have been already advised to do so 06:36:08 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:36:18 pierre- [n=kpierre@jabber.hsdnetwork.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:59 ruepel0r: Yes, special variables and dynamic variables are synonymous in Lisp 06:38:13 ok thanks 06:41:55 reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 06:44:53 -!- asksol [n=ask@062249179070.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Client Quit] 06:47:22 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:47:43 -!- saikat___ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [] 06:49:17 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:49:30 ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 06:50:08 what can i do when slime is running a lisp process with high cpu work? 06:50:45 C-c C-c 06:51:18 in the lisp-interor buffer? 06:51:25 inferior 06:53:00 do you have (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf)) in your .emacs? 06:53:40 you should put it somewhere after the (require 'slime) 06:53:50 what is it for? 06:54:18 otherwise slime is very crippled 06:55:28 you have to restart emacs, and slime, and then will come an "ah" effect 06:55:37 ok maybe that's the reason 06:55:40 i noticed several times that it is kinda crippled 06:56:25 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-30-209.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:56:30 why doesn't it automatically connect when in slime mode? i always have to run "slime" by hand 06:57:20 because it's different things 06:58:18 "A file with name #1=ASDF does not exist" 06:58:28 clisp? 06:58:56 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.255.14] has joined #lisp 06:59:12 yes 06:59:23 clisp doesn't have asdf included 06:59:26 i can also change if another one is better, i don't care 06:59:34 you'd need to (load "...../asdf.lisp") yourself 06:59:56 (which I do in my .clisprc.lisp) 07:02:08 -!- reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:02:08 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:02:08 -!- eno [n=eno@adsl-70-137-135-152.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:02:08 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:02:40 what lisp has asdf included? 07:03:06 at least sbcl 07:03:10 I know sbcl and acl do 07:03:20 ccl, abcl, too 07:03:37 ok then i will us sbcl 07:03:39 and ecl too, I think, though it may be included explicitly at the ./configure stage 07:03:55 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:05:11 jthing [n=jthing@254.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 07:05:17 xinming__ [n=hyy@125.109.252.85] has joined #lisp 07:05:24 argh! my head.. 07:06:30 sometimes I really believe to many beers can damage you health.. 07:06:45 reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 07:06:57 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-135-152.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:02 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:07:02 eno [n=eno@adsl-70-137-135-152.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:02 jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 07:07:13 -!- eno [n=eno@adsl-70-137-135-152.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:07:27 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 07:08:52 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.164.172] has joined #lisp 07:09:09 oh well loose the bottles and the faitaes and lets tun back to that bugtrack system 07:09:15 turn 07:09:46 how can i get the nth cons pair of a list? 07:10:06 minon: nth 07:10:16 minion: nth 07:10:16 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``nth''. 07:10:38 nth just returns the nth element, instead of the cons pair 07:10:41 clhs nth 07:10:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_nth.htm 07:10:53 You may want nthcdr 07:10:58 thanks pjb 07:12:34 jthing: it's not what you know, it's WHO you know :-) 07:12:45 lol 07:13:35 -!- phytovor is now known as doxtor 07:14:17 Anyhow for the nt'h cons pair nthcdr is probably what you want. (As Zhivago said.) 07:14:29 -!- anothergit [n=anotherg@pool-96-253-165-201.ptldor.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:14:52 yes that's fine 07:14:52 thanks 07:16:06 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.253.81] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:18:40 delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 07:20:35 what to do when the repl in slime doesn't do anything (not working, but also not processing my inputs) 07:21:18 look over the configuration i the .emacs (or site-init) file 07:21:22 in 07:21:33 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.255.14] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:21:47 what configuration do you mean? 07:21:48 It might be hang on processing a previous form. Try to cancel with C-g C-g 07:22:11 also check that you compiler has SWANK compiled in 07:22:38 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:22:42 needed to talk to emacs throgh a socket 07:23:54 jthing, it works sometimes, but sometimes it doesn't 07:24:00 so the swank stuff should be fine 07:24:37 Davse_Ba1se [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has joined #lisp 07:25:08 That sounds wierd, mine always works. Are you sure you are using it right? 07:25:46 i think so 07:26:12 -g get's you out of erroneous commands 07:26:20 i know 07:26:24 but didn't work for that 07:26:51 and -c -c breaks from code 07:28:35 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-110.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Success] 07:29:11 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-134-219.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:31:09 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:32:01 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 07:33:35 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-100.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 07:35:18 splittist [n=dmurray@67-81.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:35:26 morning. What fabulousness have I missed? 07:36:44 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:37:44 prabuinet [n=prabu@221.134.21.34] has joined #lisp 07:37:52 Any Lisp libspotify bindings done yet? 07:38:19 cl+j quits lisp automatically without any error. Any idea? 07:39:25 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:42:42 mae_tae [i=7960fb0e@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2509662cb310aa3b] has joined #lisp 07:43:34 ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 07:44:07 how can i measure the time for a function execution, or the cpu cycles, just some measurement of performance 07:44:48 (time (+ 1 1)) 07:44:59 that sounds eas 07:44:59 y 07:46:11 it is 07:46:36 it's not in clock cycles... 07:46:46 different lisps report different metrics 07:46:55 That would not make much sense anymore 07:47:16 <_3b> sbcl reports cpu cycles 07:47:21 and different processors as well 07:47:29 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:47:54 however, on a 6502 lisp it would be more appropriate ;) 07:48:14 _3b: so it does. 07:49:29 is there some function that fills a list with a generator function? like (generate-list 100 (random 10)) 07:49:34 anyhow CUDA is really cool 07:49:51 rather #'(random 10) 07:50:26 <_3b> (loop repeat 100 collect (random 10)) ? 07:50:40 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:51:00 ruepel0r: that's not a valid clause, it'd be (lambda () (random 10)) if you were to encapsulate it 07:51:10 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:51:18 or (mapcar (lambda () (random 10)) (make-list 100)) 07:51:18 or just #'(random 10)? 07:51:44 FUNCTION: #1=(RANDOM 10) is not a function name; try using a symbol instead 07:52:57 jthing, your mapcar doesn't seem to work 07:53:27 the lambda needs 1 (ignored) argument 07:54:35 or (mapcar (lambda (x) (random 10)) (make-list 100)) 07:54:40 how to you exit from the backtrace in emacs/sbcl? 07:54:47 that works.. 07:55:25 a (ignore x) will thwart thewaring 07:55:50 ruepel0r: type a 07:57:49 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.118.116] has joined #lisp 07:58:45 jthing: what makes CUDA cool for you? 08:00:18 Did a fractal computation and could do 10 000 simultanius computations 08:00:32 mandelbrook animated inreal time 08:00:38 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.118.116] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 08:00:39 :) 08:02:22 'zoomed' through the julia sets etc. 08:04:15 Now I have to think of more imaginary applications of this SIMD tecknology. 08:05:17 'good-morning 08:05:17 (Single Instruction Multiple Data) 08:05:28 indeeed 08:05:34 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.138.201] has joined #lisp 08:06:35 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:06:45 what is the best way to make a list out of a vector? (listit #(1 2 3 4)) -> (1 2 3 4)? currently i am using (map 'list (lambda (x) x) vec) - but i have the feeling, there is something better... 08:07:03 (coerce vector 'list) 08:07:43 jthing: (map-into (make-list 100) (lambda () (random 10))) would be a better advice 08:08:35 trebor_dki: also note, (lambda (x) x) is IDENTITY 08:08:37 stassats`: oh, that really was obvious ... thanks. that shows me that i need coffee ... 08:09:39 stassats`: indeed, missed that one 08:09:48 -!- pfhaust [n=mike@c-71-227-167-254.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:10:00 jmbr [n=jmbr@27.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 08:10:01 (I use loop) 08:10:40 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:19:05 drewc: feature request for cltl3: macros as first-class objects. (apply #'mymacro '(random-code-here)) FTW 08:19:22 ugh 08:19:28 *sykopomp* cackles. 08:19:37 cltl3? 08:19:38 drewc: also, ponies. 08:19:48 metaponies. 08:19:49 kthx! 08:19:51 I don't think so! 08:19:57 -!- mae_tae [i=7960fb0e@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2509662cb310aa3b] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 08:19:58 drewc: consider it ticketed. 08:20:39 you are overly conceitful of the power of this IRC group 08:21:25 apparently it's not sufficient to keep you out of here. 08:21:27 jthing: http://ilc2009.scheming.org/node/48 08:22:36 sykopomp: yeah. all you need is 1000 000 $ 08:22:46 does destructive mean that the original list is probably changed and cannot be used again, but the result is usable, or does it mean that i can continue the work with the old list, because after calling a destructive function the old list is exactly that what the function does? 08:23:08 jthing: you don't need tons of cash to send some e-mails around, get some online polls going, and write a book. 08:23:09 i hope you understand what i mean 08:23:13 it certainly helps, though. 08:23:25 ruepel0r: not with all functions 08:23:51 stassats`, that was an either.. or 08:23:54 ruepel0r: your first assertion is true, the second one is true for some functions. 08:23:56 -!- yango_ is now known as yango 08:23:57 ruepel0r: it means it may chew the original list up and reuse bits and pieces in the new list 08:24:40 ruepel0r: some do the former, some do the latter 08:24:43 ok, so destructive actually means "don't use the original list, it could be screwed, but the result is that what you want" 08:25:00 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:25:08 it means "don't make new conses" 08:25:14 which means you don't create garbage 08:25:37 which means it uses less memory, and sometimes runs faster because you give the garbage collector less crap to worry about. 08:25:45 make-list makes a new list filled with NULL. map-into as stassats` sais avoids copying the list. 08:26:17 that is mapcar returns a copy 08:26:31 how can i create a reference that points to the rest of a list? using setq or setf? 08:26:42 wat 08:26:56 ruepel0r: (let ((ref (rest list))) (do-something-with ref)) 08:27:09 or: what? 08:27:12 if i change ref with setf, is then also list changed? 08:27:22 No, why should it? 08:27:39 because i want a reference to the rest of list 08:27:44 and i want to manipulate it using ref 08:28:13 If I point my finger toward the Eiffel tower, and then you change my arm to point toward the Arc de Triomphe, why would the Eiffel tower be changed? 08:28:17 ruepel0r: you can share the lisp merely tranfering the pointer unless you wish to modify it in which case you should copy-lisp first 08:28:39 matimago, e.g. in c it works like that 08:28:46 a/lisp/list/ 08:28:46 i know, this is not c 08:28:49 but i am confused 08:28:53 ruepel0r: you can of course manipulate the rest of the list thru a reference to the rest of the list, there's no other way. But this is not changing the reference. 08:29:18 ruepel0r: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/they-called-it-lisp-for-a-reason-list-processing.html#destructive-operations 08:29:21 matimago: because you were standing directly next to one of the legs of the tour, your arm is made of super-steel, and the act of turning collapses the tower (: 08:29:21 matimago what do you mena with "not changing the reference" 08:29:30 ruepel0r: not at all: { list* ref=list_rest(list); ref=titi;/* change the reference */ /* then you cannot modify the list */} 08:29:48 splittist: oops! :-) 08:30:06 -!- xinming__ [n=hyy@125.109.252.85] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:30:11 but with *ref = listelement you can change it matimago 08:30:21 that's what i try to do 08:30:40 ruepel0r: in this case you DO NOT CHANGE the reference! 08:30:51 ref is constant here. 08:30:59 no, i mean to change that what the reference points to 08:31:22 list const* ref=list_rest(list); (*ref).car=42; /* list changed, ref didn't */ 08:31:31 ruepel0r: then if you mean that, why don't you say that? 08:31:36 i intend to say that 08:31:39 ruepel0r: why do you say something else? 08:31:40 actually.. 08:31:49 maybe beacuse my english is not perfect 08:31:51 ruepel0r: see, words are important even in English. 08:33:07 so how can i reach that? 08:33:50 HG` [n=wells@xdsled029.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:34:07 (let ((ref (list 1 2 3))) (setf (cadr 4)) ref) 08:34:14 (cadr ref) 4 08:34:54 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@47.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 08:35:19 (let ((ref (list 1 2 3))) (setf (cadr ref) 4) ref) to be clear 08:35:26 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@27.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:35:48 ok thanks 08:36:52 or setf for short 08:37:52 -!- jmbr_ is now known as jmbr 08:39:18 setf has compile-time magic. 08:40:40 a complex ugly MF. see define-setf-expander 08:41:13 but usefull... 08:41:16 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 08:41:41 hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 08:46:17 *stassats`* never used define-setf-expander 08:50:12 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 08:50:33 see PAIP for a example 08:50:48 -!- jao [n=jao@94.Red-88-6-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:51:41 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@47.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:53:37 luckely it is rarely needed 09:03:15 mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 09:04:34 -!- Davse_Ba1se [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:06:48 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has joined #lisp 09:07:39 -!- A_anekos is now known as anekos 09:13:04 elias` [n=me@host217-42-207-213.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:13:36 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 09:18:29 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:21:21 how can i get the second part of a cons pair of a list, i.e. (setf (cdr newlist) (cdr mylist) works, but what if i want to set it to the whole list, i.e. (setf (cdr newlist) mylist) does not work 09:21:28 sir_mud [n=sir_mud@unaffiliated/sirmud/x-838753] has joined #lisp 09:21:40 -!- sir_mud [n=sir_mud@unaffiliated/sirmud/x-838753] has left #lisp 09:22:23 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@217.194.205.196] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:23:43 ruepel0r: cdr gives the second par of any cons pair, be it in a list or not. 09:23:54 ruepel0r: (cdr cons-pair) 09:24:34 -!- mikezor_ is now known as mikezor 09:24:59 ruepel0r: otherwise, the forms you give DO work, but are irrelevant to your question. 09:25:31 Davse_Ba1se [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has joined #lisp 09:25:32 ruepel0r: your "i want to set it to the whole list" seem to imply the following syntax: (setf newlist myslist) 09:25:57 and that sets a place 09:26:39 oh well, (car list) is a place too, i meant variable place 09:27:16 jewel_ 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[Remote closed the connection] 10:35:04 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:35:53 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:36:24 jmbr [n=jmbr@47.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 10:36:34 grouzen [n=grouzen@194.11.28.1] has joined #lisp 10:36:39 kidd2 [n=kidd@82.Red-79-150-114.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:27 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 17:39:27 17:39:27 -!- names: ccl-logbot nzodd oudeis MrPat Bootvis faux leo2007 prabuinet segv Yuuhi Aankhen`` legumbre_ cracki gigamonkey kejsaren_ slash_ asksol timor [df] danlei mattrepl athos mrsolo saikat konr doxtor dat seelenquell ineiros qbg ikki [Head|Rest] ruediger dto Davidbrcz pierre- gemelen Gertm LiamH sad0ur salex existentialmonk Jasko2 nyef willb kidd2 milanj sohail xinming_ bombshelter13_ Nshag kpreid tritchey tsuru merimus kami- fiveop mathrick dlowe 17:39:27 -!- names: billstclair sellout MrSpec daniel brown``` The-Kenny nvoorhies prip Holcxjo kmcorbett1 bobf_ Odin- jewel Guthur grouzen HET2 antifuchs Edward_ hnr HG` Soulman hkBst delYsid pchrist jkantz kiuma eno jthing xan mindCrime domiel holycow retupmoca pitui aja fe[nl]ix dys guaqua ia Ginei_Morioka xristos manic12 benny proq stassats` jajcloz araujo dmiles_afk yango plutonas marcoecc mikezor peddie madnificent mornfall Soulman__ matimago free_thinker 17:39:27 -!- names: frodef Patzy freethin` drforr cp2 sykopomp BrianRice dfox rread_ X-Scale djinni` Dazhbog anekos enn tltstc @drewc caddar rdd phadthai CrazyEddy jlf` kuwabara Drakeson Taggnostr Fade bob_f ``Erik qebab Ringo48 Ppjet6 Adrinael Borbus s0ber hypno ironChicken alexbobp erg ramus` cYmen bohanlon froydnj Ralith pjb mtd Buganini bdowning minion asdf1234 herbieB Khisanth johanbev authentic joast wlr Aisling jsnell AntiSpamMeta fnordus REPLeffect joga 17:39:27 -!- names: kuhzoo kei trebor_dki arbscht rumbleca erk glogic frontiers ecraven scode_ housel mgr nicktastic johs kefka spacebat_ lnostdal tttsssttt maxote tessier cavelife^ felipe Riastradh nasloc__ Orest djkthx clog stepnem slyrus lisppaste ianmcorvidae myrkraverk Axioplase_ meingbg dcrawford bfein Quadrescence ski jrockway yahooooo rlonstein drhodes tarbo smithzv ilitirit specbot egn easyE zbigniew vcgomes bun_bun srcerer tcoppi thijso l_a_m galdor 17:39:27 -!- names: dostoyevsky wgl sepisultrum cmm cods rotty lemoinem sjbach r0bby p_l pkhuong blast_hardcheese Draggor guenthr piksi vsync rsynnott Bucciarati tic noptys pon][ wasabi__ gz Maddas boyscared luis desu rey_ PissedNumlock Qsource foom zilt krappie _dima Dave2 z0d koollman _3b chii michaelw fgtech pragma_ azuk Zhivago Xof pok 17:39:30 that's why I'm not using it 17:39:48 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-50-127-196.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:48 one of the reasons anyway 17:39:52 <_3b> manic12: well, that just means you have to do the rewriting by hand anyway :p 17:40:13 swig is not exactly "by hand" 17:40:34 <_3b> swig isn't exactly 'setting it up to run efficiently with that threading stuff' either 17:40:43 swig sounds more like something to do with soda. 17:40:47 sure it is 17:40:48 <_3b> the cl-opengl code should be as good as the swig code 17:41:09 <_3b> so swig somehow detects if the gl call needs that special option for you? 17:41:10 i'm sure the cl-opengl code is fine on other platforms 17:41:22 no, you do and you fix it 17:41:34 <_3b> right, which is what i'm saying is the annoying part 17:42:00 <_3b> swig gets you exactly as far as cl-opengl would 17:42:08 <_3b> which doesn't sound like a very good place to be 17:42:14 you could change the default to release the heap for everything 17:42:38 <_3b> right, and have it break randomly, that would be an improvement :) 17:42:39 but that just makes debugging hard 17:42:58 <_3b> not really... setting that default would be the bug 17:43:48 <_3b> though i guess it could just require copying before ffi calls 17:43:53 all I'm saying is that I use lisp arrays to get things fleshed-out, because they are GCd 17:44:19 <_3b> yeah, not saying you shouldn't do what you are doing :) 17:44:36 <_3b> (aside from writing your own bindings, but feel free to ignore me saying notto do that :p ) 17:45:06 *_3b* needs to get back to debugging though 17:45:11 _3b: I had to klude CFFI to make it work on x64 17:45:13 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:14 kludge 17:45:23 Umm... Is #lisp covered for that sevices clear-out thing? 17:45:33 -!- dcrawford is now known as dcrawford_ 17:45:43 -!- dcrawford_ is now known as dcrawford__ 17:45:45 yes, back to work... 17:45:54 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-182.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 17:45:58 forgot what I was doing now 17:46:11 yrzzbe [i=7cd95d1c@gateway/web/freenode/x-f2e600f8fcbb32d2] has joined #lisp 17:46:12 nyef: services clear out thing? 17:46:22 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has quit [] 17:46:30 -!- dcrawford__ is now known as dcrawford 17:46:32 That global notice that just went by and has been repeating in various forms for the past few days? 17:46:56 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:18 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-245-18.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:48:10 ah i see 17:48:14 <_3b> looks like theoretically it should be OK since it is # not ## channel 17:48:39 does the double-hash have some special meaning? 17:49:04 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-182.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 17:50:29 Yes, it does. 17:50:33 But I forget what. 17:51:11 non-primary channels 17:51:12 *_3b* understood it to be something like # is for specific projects, ## is for general topics or something like that 17:51:26 they'll automagically be reaped if the # one is 17:51:31 iiuc 17:51:31 Actually, we're probably okay, so long as they treat the access list as "contacts"... 17:52:23 that will let them know the channel is used, anyway 17:52:33 dunno what "contacts" are defined as 17:53:10 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:53:31 hmm, seems that needs forms filling out 17:53:46 i haven't been around much for ages, dunno if anyone's done that 17:54:20 btw, the problem with GL on NT6.x is that it's kinda like GLX, and for direct rendering you either have to drop DWM into different rendering path or possibly do some crazy stuff (doesn't really matter in fullscreen, but...) 17:56:47 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 17:57:03 Hey, what do you guys do about the GL_3_BYTES type for glCallLists? 17:57:28 *_3b* thinks calllists is deprecated :p 17:58:02 Oh, nevermind, I see my angle here. 17:59:54 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:01:00 morning 18:01:02 -!- cp2 [n=will@unaffiliated/cp2] has quit ["leaving"] 18:01:45 *manic12* says "what?" 18:01:49 -!- pierre- [n=kpierre@jabber.hsdnetwork.net] has left #lisp 18:01:54 cp2 [n=will@unaffiliated/cp2] has joined #lisp 18:02:04 pierre- [n=kpierre@jabber.hsdnetwork.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:06 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 18:02:15 Morning, slyrus 18:02:18 it's gonna take me a full half hour to remember where i left off 18:03:10 Hello slyrus_. 18:03:33 nyef: re 'contact' I think they mean the channel owner and there seems to be some new 'successor' option in nickserv 18:03:45 Ah. That could be a problem. 18:04:11 hmm... is there any consensus concerning fasl save/load path? 18:04:42 p_l: It's fun to remap using LPNs? 18:05:14 nyef: no, I'm just trying to make sure that I won't have wrong versions of fasls loaded with my versioned-asdf :) 18:05:16 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:05:37 "If your channel is active but your contacts are not, please let us know by midnight Wednesday 10th June (again, UTC) and well try make special arrangements." 18:05:47 so at least changing suffixes for all fasls (which will probably break some code, I guess) 18:05:53 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:13 Note that changing the fasl file extension ("type") will break on some lisps. 18:07:44 nyef: yeah. I had a whole package whose loader had weird magic for that 18:08:02 There's weird magic for it in SBCL, too. 18:08:14 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:34 nyef: well, this package had its own implementation of asdf-binary-locations, except for standard (load ...) 18:08:46 Heh. 18:09:29 nyef: And it would bailout if your implementation wasn't on the list 18:10:59 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:11:58 I first gave up adding all the stuff for SBCL+McCLIM. Then I gave up trying with "supported" implementation :D 18:12:18 it should probably work on allegro, though 18:14:12 who's going to do the let-them-know part? 18:14:24 Hopefully, an op. 18:14:47 anybody want to advise me or help me brainstorm on how to structure the history of this window stream so that I can render it fast, select it fast, and other things? 18:14:51 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:15:37 Is McCLIM's general funkyness due to the widgetry associated with the CLX backend, or is it inherent? 18:16:49 I, unfortunately don't know enough about mcclim 18:17:04 -!- asdf1234 [i=812131fb@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-1579b62bba5b58ed] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 18:17:04 nyef: yes 18:17:18 though it is quite rooted in X windows 18:17:28 slyrus_: An accurate, though unhelpful, answer. 18:17:33 (for something that came from a lisp machine) 18:18:05 -!- prabuinet [n=prabu@117.193.195.214] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:18:14 that's me! accurate but unhelpful! seriously, I think it's both. 18:18:24 Mmm... I was afraid of that. 18:18:24 nyef: it forces all events to go down one throat 18:19:25 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 18:19:57 windows does the same in it's own way with thread message queues 18:20:07 stassats: I did some further testing. I seem to be able to resolve part of the gray streams issue, yet your code hits another error now. I'll investigate further. 18:20:32 Yeah, the event/message handling isn't what I'm complaining about. 18:21:02 the gadgets? 18:21:14 The gadgets, the dialogs, the menus, the... 18:21:25 There's a -lot- of funkiness in the user experience. 18:21:50 Like, when a completion box pops up, there are only two ways to get rid of it. Either pick something or hit C-g. 18:21:55 i think it says in the clim docs that it's supposed to piggyback on the window system 18:22:00 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A2A89.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:22:28 too many cooks in the kitchen 18:22:41 -!- zbigniew is now known as zbigniew_ 18:22:50 -!- zbigniew_ is now known as zbigniew 18:22:50 Leads me to wonder if I should dust off my old "NQ-CLIM" idea. 18:23:00 (Essentially, "Not Quite CLIM".) 18:23:00 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:23:04 ah 18:23:16 i had a "climish" idea 18:23:28 benny [n=benny@i577A2CE5.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:23:29 maybe there's hope for this thing yet 18:23:40 slyrus_: Which thing, and in what fashion? 18:23:50 Is there a CL project named CLAM yet? 18:23:57 my hunchentoot-cgi webserver thingy 18:24:04 Ah. 18:24:33 I added a process-wait and a process-close after getting the data from the stream and things seem happier 18:24:35 gigamonk, what would CLAM be? 18:24:50 minion: what does CLAM stand for? 18:24:51 Cluther Lithoscope Amylohydrolytic Messily 18:25:10 of course! 18:25:15 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:35 now, my dictionary doesn't have those words 18:26:09 mine had all except Cluther, but definitions were ripped out 18:26:54 cluther would be a good project name, variation on "closure" 18:27:18 we (and fe[nl]ix hates it when i say we) we should get organaized around a nq-clim type thing starting from mcclim 18:27:50 *p_l* was thinking of putting McCLIM on top of WPF, just for kicks 18:28:02 I occasionally get this: apr_socket_recv: Connection reset by peer (54) 18:28:04 cl desperately needs an awesome user interface 18:28:16 manic12: I don't know. I'm just saying it'd be a good name for a CL project. 18:28:17 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:28:19 but it doesn't bring down the server any more 18:28:24 But it sounds like slyrus has taken it. 18:28:26 gigamonk`: The Common Lisp Application Manager? Not so far as I know... 18:28:49 common lisp artichoke muncher 18:29:03 manic12: Starting from McCLIM? But I don't -like- McCLIM. 18:29:15 ok 18:29:20 suggestion? 18:29:21 gigamonk`: I did? no, that was CLEM 18:29:29 stassats: If Costanza runs out of steam on Closer, then the fork could be Clother; same idea, more Lispy. 18:29:47 ouch 18:29:52 i don't usually say this: 18:29:55 lol. 18:30:03 slyrus_: ah, I thought you were answering my question but see now that you weren't. 18:30:46 nyef: I'm going to take a crack at HI as soon as I can get it 18:31:17 i personally don't have a problem with commercial software 18:31:57 *nyef* is blanking on what "HI" means in this context. 18:32:11 human interface? 18:32:14 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.164.172] has quit ["Log this!"] 18:32:16 Ah. 18:32:21 HI = "Human Interface" (tm) (Izware) 18:32:32 *stassats* guessed 18:32:55 no, the next ten projects should be more things that sound the same as 'clojure' 18:32:59 *closure 18:33:02 manic12, have you tried commonqt yet? I haven't had the time yet. 18:33:05 really CI would be even better 18:33:13 chimpanzee interface 18:33:13 a KDE binding, for instance, could be klosure 18:33:15 latest qt has some really cool stuff 18:33:25 cyborg interface? 18:33:35 sohail: I haven't 18:33:38 Is there a cloture already? 18:33:52 written in blood 18:33:53 sohail: does it run on windows? 18:33:53 manic12, yeah, I need to schedule some time for it 18:34:02 manic12, only theoretically I think 18:34:17 but I suspect it's more an issue of building the code rather than it being inherently unportable 18:34:29 i think one of the goals was to run windows 18:34:35 dcrawford: or with some sort of barrier. Hey, trivial-cloture, for parallel barrier implementations ;) 18:34:36 windows is ubiquitous in the cad market, therefore i code for windows 18:34:53 manic12: are you making a custom cad application ? 18:34:53 I want to use commonqt with ECL for the big 3 18:35:00 yes 18:35:01 or building on mirai maybe 18:35:08 manic12: Ah, -you're- the one I need to talk to about the CLIM CAD software, then! 18:35:47 i'm [attempting to] start with mirai -- make it a plugin 18:36:18 do you have mirai source ? 18:36:27 if it goes anywhere and generates revenue for Izware then I will ask if it can be sold seperately with hi 18:36:40 xristos: no, just the S-packages 18:37:05 *kpreid* notes that midnight UTC is not far off and mentions Xof, slyrus_, antifuchs, and drewc, just in case it helps. 18:37:08 CI reminds me of Cluster Interconnect 18:37:16 i thought they had closed shop 18:37:17 xristos: Izware isn't fully against the idea, it's just premature for technical reasons 18:37:21 they need to put some news releases up 18:37:24 or something to download 18:37:35 he's got an alpha 18:38:03 -!- pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:38:04 he's got a mac version 18:38:24 know when they're going to release ? 18:38:35 probably in a year 18:38:49 jao [n=jao@94.Red-88-6-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:58 phytovor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-13-47.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:02 that's my guess, not his 18:39:20 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:39:50 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:40:21 xristos: I can ask him to email you 18:40:41 he takes a week to answer emails, but he does respond 18:41:04 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 18:41:05 well i'm not looking to buy it, just curious 18:41:46 xristos: I would bet it would be drastically cheaper than before due to competition, and he would let you beta test it for bug reports 18:41:49 mostly looking to clone their widgets/look ;p 18:41:59 as i lack artistic sense 18:42:12 i don't believe that 18:42:52 nyef: what did you want to talk about in regards to cad? 18:43:55 hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:16 hi hefner 18:44:25 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.19] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:44:35 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 18:45:03 -!- Orest is now known as Orest^bnc 18:45:42 -!- Orest^bnc is now known as Orest 18:45:44 xristos: so I'm saving the data in the stream buffers as glyph objects now, broken down by interaction objects 18:45:57 so I can retain the font informatio 18:45:59 n 18:46:15 manic12: hi. 18:46:50 hefner: I am staying up from yesterday trying to reset my clock to daytime 18:48:06 style question, when you run out of horizontal space 18:48:09 (foo 18:48:10 bar 18:48:13 baz) 18:48:14 or 18:48:18 (foo bar 18:48:23 baz) 18:48:43 you pull the emacs border to the right 18:48:50 <_3b> i'd try the second option first 18:49:06 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:49:06 <[df]> I prefer the latter 18:49:24 <_3b> then try to push something left at a higher level, then first option 18:49:27 or start newlining your args as far to the left as possible 18:49:30 yvdriess: yes, whether it is a uniform list or operator/operands, respectively 18:49:35 ideally, none of the above. When I have to, I usually do the latter, except if there'll be tons of keyword or otherwise paired arguments, in which case I use the former to put a few arguments/line. 18:49:41 operator/operand 18:49:45 benbelly [n=bholm1@cpe-74-67-149-169.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:49:52 yvdriess: oh wait, your first had 2-space indent. only do that for implicit progn operators 18:50:09 if it's something else, usually align the operands vertically 18:50:30 so in the former, how do you indent ? 18:50:31 like 18:50:42 (foo 18:50:53 bar) 18:51:04 like this: (print '(foo 18:51:04 bar)) 18:51:21 -!- hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [] 18:51:22 yeah for lists it makes sense 18:51:34 (progn 18:51:35 foo 18:51:35 bar) 18:51:44 (if foo 18:51:44 bar 18:51:44 baz) 18:52:18 (I personally dislike indenting IF that way, but it seems to be the generally preferred style) 18:53:07 hm in if's case I tend to use the resident auto indent that makes it into 18:53:10 (if t 18:53:10 c 18:53:11 a) 18:53:14 i don't like "if" in general, because you have to put things in (progx 18:53:36 but at the same time i don't want the baggage of if* 18:53:44 which makes no sense 18:53:55 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 18:53:59 <_3b> so use cond if you would need a progn 18:53:59 since I am stuck to this platform anyway 18:54:56 was it scheme that has implicit begin at the antecedent? 18:55:02 manic12: One of the usage scenarios for fixing up CLX GLX is a CAD program in McCLIM. 18:55:12 <_3b> yvdriess: elisp maybe? 18:55:30 nyef: what kind of cad program? 18:56:43 nyef: I'm working on a program which would suit mechanical and civil types 18:57:24 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [No route to host] 18:57:47 CLX GLX isn't that far from working well 18:58:08 Further detail was never gone into, as there was little point in it until the GLX was more stable. 18:58:21 -!- dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:58:51 On one level, no, it's not that far from working well. 18:58:52 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 18:59:09 Is it possible to make table like [0 1 4 9 16 25...] (there will be other function, x^2 is only an example) during compilation of my Lisp program ? It will be quite huge table, and I dont want to make it while my program is running ;) Is it right time to learn about macros? Or is there any simplier way? I have no idea :\ 18:59:18 what about growing an nq-clim out of something like HI? 18:59:18 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.22] has joined #lisp 18:59:20 On another level, it's quite a bit of work from really being usable. 18:59:36 wgl is about 4 functions 18:59:39 jmbr [n=jmbr@46.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:59:56 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:08 *nyef* points out that his target platform is Linux + X + No Budget. 19:00:09 MrSpec: load-time-value or defparameter (or defglobal) would probably make more sense. 19:00:24 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:00:24 Sure, but you have to have the GL stuff as well. 19:00:40 doesn't cl-opengl work in sbcl? 19:00:48 Doesn't integrate well with CLX. 19:00:52 MrSpec: What do you use the table for? 19:00:58 the glut cruft? 19:01:09 The separate X display connection. 19:01:24 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 19:01:31 there will be prime numbers 19:01:35 paw [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:01:45 and I want to get 1st second etc.. in O(1) time 19:01:48 nyef: Izware does have code for running HI on Linux 19:02:12 and I'd prfere not to fill this table manually ;) 19:02:13 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-245-18.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:21 prefere* 19:02:38 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #lisp 19:02:40 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 19:03:08 so if you used HI as the basis, you could run the same stuff on windows, linux and mac potentially 19:03:28 MrSpec: Using a macro to produce the array should work 19:03:42 i'm persuing it precisely because it is the best path with the least resistance 19:03:52 why macro? 19:04:16 nyef: you still have me wondering what kind of CAD? 19:04:37 manic12: Just do (defvar *primes* (loop for ...)) 19:04:51 And, as I said, it was never nailed down. 19:04:51 <_3b> nyef: you could always fix the separate connection problem by using cl-opengl for the mcclim part too :) 19:04:55 -!- saikat [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:05:02 _3b: Feel free. :-P 19:05:20 <_3b> nyef: it is on my list 19:05:38 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:06:02 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:41 -!- mindCrime [n=chatzill@cpe-076-182-103-085.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [No route to host] 19:07:13 Something else I was thinking about was getting XInput support into CLX and using that to be able to handle things like wacom tablets for pressure-sensitive input and such. CL paint programs, anyone? 19:07:27 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f53b0.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 19:07:32 hmm specbot is not working ? 19:07:37 <_3b> yeah, i'd like some sort of tablet input eventually 19:07:42 clhs list 19:07:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_list.htm 19:07:54 i use the space navigator with lisp 19:07:57 I've sent him pm... 19:08:07 clhs load-time-value 19:08:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_ld_tim.htm 19:08:07 wrong pm 19:08:11 not quite the same thing as a tablet 19:08:22 MrSpec: specbot doesn't identify to nickserv. 19:08:52 <_3b> yeah, all sorts of odd input devices would be useful, tablets, wiimote, whatever :) 19:08:59 no ? I was using him this way some time ago 19:09:11 *_3b* wonders where my powerglove ended up 19:09:33 Oh, hey, while I remember, does anyone know of anything to dump input events in Linux? I've got an input device that I think is attached to some useful buttons on my system but I want to check. 19:09:43 <_3b> xev? 19:09:49 stassats: gray streams should work now, however, I didn't test all of it. 19:09:52 Not mapped to X so far as I know. 19:10:06 ehu`: ok 19:10:10 stassats: if it works, it should be possible to eliminate SlimeInputStream and SlimeOutputStream. 19:10:14 Than would be very nice. 19:10:19 I want to look at what (if anything) is generated on /dev/input/event5. 19:10:33 nyef: I guess you could try reading from it 19:10:34 stassats: could you report back with results? 19:10:54 mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068135036.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:55 nyef: still, source is your friend in this 19:10:57 ehu`: yeah, i'll try to load slime with graystreams now 19:11:10 nyef: cat it ? 19:11:22 cat didn't seem to do anything useful. 19:11:43 -!- MrPat [n=MrPat@dhcp-pa-67-20-227-48.consolidated.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:11:48 stassats: Do you use abcl for something, or just toying around? 19:11:58 tcr: just toying 19:12:31 nyef: include/linux/input*.h 19:12:57 hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 19:13:06 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:09 -!- paw [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:13:46 nyef: also drivers/input/evdev.c 19:13:51 [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.19] has joined #lisp 19:14:48 paw [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:18:08 stassats: would be nice to know if trivial-gray-streams works with ABCL now. It's about the most trivial thing you can do with gray-streams :-) 19:18:33 mega1: I've got gdb attached to this process if you've got time for some telepathic debugging 19:18:50 slyrus_: yup 19:18:59 so what's the backtrace? 19:19:44 slyrus pasted "freebsd x86-64 backtrace" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81666 19:22:08 slyrus annotated #81666 "registers" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81666#1 19:22:59 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:24:28 slyrus_: do you have the sp that's printed? 19:24:37 slyrus annotated #81666 "the registers for the offending frame" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81666#2 19:24:38 -!- hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [] 19:25:17 slyrus annotated #81666 "lisp output" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81666#3 19:25:21 "set $fp = 0x...." or something like that, then "ba" 19:26:14 because the backtrace is truncated as usual. Gdb has trouble with the altstack. 19:26:50 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.22] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:26:59 Hrm... Looks like it's not generating events. 19:27:06 Guess I'll try again after a reboot. 19:27:47 -!- nzodd [n=nzodd@wsip-70-183-4-66.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:27:55 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:28:02 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 19:28:09 mega1: $rbp? 19:28:11 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:28:22 (It would be well within character for things to stop working after a suspend or setting the system to tablet mode or...) 19:30:09 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.245.101] has joined #lisp 19:30:22 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:30:27 slyrus_: isn't fp an alias for rbp? 19:30:52 doesn't seem to be: Left operand of assignment is not an lvalue 19:30:57 maybe this is some gdb66 thing 19:31:02 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 19:31:24 Brucio-8 [n=Brucio-8@john-marshall.sflc.info] has joined #lisp 19:31:41 ehu`: it went further 19:31:52 better, but not good enough. 19:31:58 where did it get stuck? 19:32:18 i'm not sure yet, i blame communication-style nil 19:32:31 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:32:33 are threads in abcl good enough? 19:32:55 i think, it's better to get :spawn working, than fixing nil 19:33:10 I have it working 19:33:16 threads? 19:33:29 gray streams? 19:33:33 mega1: I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be setting $rbp to. 0x800cadf10 doesn't change the backtrace 19:33:34 I sent ehu` an implementation of Gates which are needed to get it working 19:33:34 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:43 ah. that. 19:33:45 right. 19:33:55 (or alternatively, a process-wait function.) 19:33:57 but that was about threads, right? 19:34:18 Yes, it's basically a cheap ersatz for a general process-wait function 19:34:54 -!- mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068135036.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:35:07 cheap as in efficient, too 19:35:37 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D3A4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:35:38 slyrus_: damn, I used a trick like this to get back at the real interrupted frame 19:36:03 on the other hand, sbcl on windows uses nil too, so it's maybe worth fixing 19:36:04 can you modify that fprintf in the runtime to print rbp? 19:36:27 stassats: Anyone using SBCL on Windows who is "in the know", has it working with :fd-handler. 19:36:31 mega1: i wonder if I can get the stack address from the void_context 19:36:43 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 19:36:58 nyef: is there any reasons not to set it by default in slime? 19:37:07 Yeah, it doesn't work by default in SBCL. 19:37:18 ugh 19:37:35 You need to set things up to hot-patch your SBCL instance. 19:37:48 hot-patch yummy! 19:37:55 luckily, i don't have windows 19:38:18 slyrus_: there is os_context_fp_addr. At least, on linux. 19:38:24 I've actually had the fix for longer than the issue has been known. 19:38:40 Can you access a stack-allocated value from another thread on sbcl? 19:38:55 tcr: Yes, but be careful with it. 19:39:03 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 19:39:56 I rewrote slime's inspector to catch trying to access stack-allocated values but were unwinded under your feet 19:40:07 s/but/which/ 19:41:07 tcr: accessing it from other threads is predictably dangerous 19:41:32 what's the question? 19:41:40 in how far? 19:42:01 the other thread is interrupted and in the debugger 19:42:46 -!- Brucio-8 [n=Brucio-8@john-marshall.sflc.info] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:42:48 in that case I see no reason for it to fail 19:43:41 so how can you catch access to such values? 19:44:12 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:47 jao` [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:04 -!- pierre- [n=kpierre@jabber.hsdnetwork.net] has left #lisp 19:45:28 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:30 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:35 I cannot catch all, of course, but for each object behind an inspector page, I know which objects are stack-allocated (presuming a stack-allocated-p, e.g. nikodemus' more general allocation-information function) 19:46:32 for each such object I remember the thread it's stack-allocated in, and an id pertaining to the Slime debugger, and the recusive debug level 19:46:36 jao`_ [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:51 tcr, stassats: for some reason I don't seem able to replace the cl:close function with a generic function. 19:47:05 when the user tries to access that object again through the inspector I check that the thread is still alive, and the slime debugger id and recursive level match 19:47:05 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:12 that would however complete gray streams compatibility. 19:47:13 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:29 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdsled029.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:48:08 tcr: normally the inspector works even if the debugger is long gone 19:48:31 mega1: Yes, I retained that capability. 19:48:40 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:48:40 mega1: using that rbp doesn't change things :( 19:48:40 working gray streams would be a nice feature for the next release 19:49:26 I think you're right on the mark there. 19:49:44 slyrus_: now we are left with the true debugger: fprintf 19:50:10 ok, at least making the runtime and starting make-target-2.sh is a quick turnaround 19:50:21 but right now it's lunch.. 19:50:25 back in a few 19:50:40 mega1: But if the debugger is gone, and you try to access a stack-allocated value which is presumably now gone (I think one could make up cases where it's still there but it thinks it's gone), instead of the object representation, # will be displayed. If you click on that, you're warned and asked whether to proceed. 19:51:05 stassats: after loading gray-streams, does (defclass a () ()) work for you? 19:51:30 -!- jao [n=jao@94.Red-88-6-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:51:57 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:51:59 seems to work 19:52:18 hmm. than this definitely is the issue with redefining CLOSE 19:53:03 -!- jao`_ is now known as jao 19:53:09 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.244.7] has joined #lisp 19:53:18 tcr: sounds good 19:53:25 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:53:27 schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:53:38 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 19:56:03 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:05 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-182.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 19:57:08 mega1: What's so % on sb-thread::%symbol-value-in-thread? 19:57:35 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.19] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:57:38 I guess accessing the binding stack while it may be changed. 19:58:08 ehu`: terpri doesn't seem to work on gray strems 19:58:31 no, it's not binding stack 19:59:14 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.252.64] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:59:15 stassats: code? 19:59:43 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Output-prefixing-character-stream.html#Output-prefixing-character-stream 19:59:51 mega1: I need something like that in that new inspector code. As a kludgy default implementation, I use something involving interrupt-thread 20:00:57 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.245.101] has quit [] 20:01:10 ehu`: write-line doesn't work, but write-string works 20:01:22 ah. 20:01:28 rorywinston [n=rory@5ac03a65.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 20:01:38 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-100.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 20:02:29 -!- jao` is now known as jao`` 20:02:30 tcr: I see a few problems with it: 20:02:30 1) you may see a stale value 20:02:30 2) boundness detection is buggy 20:02:30 3) the object may be gc'ed before make-lisp-obj is called with the address 20:02:35 -!- jao is now known as jao` 20:02:42 -!- jao`` is now known as jao 20:03:48 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-111.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:04:29 Well feel free to come up with an exportable definition. :) 20:04:59 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:05:33 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:08:51 slyrus_: as a sanity check you can try removing this line from SAVE_ERRNO: 20:08:51 if (!maybe_resignal_to_lisp_thread(signal, context)) \ 20:09:33 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:10:19 whoa. More memory corruption compiling stuff with SBCL. 20:10:50 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:11:14 tcr: probably won't happen. interrupt-thread is indeed your best bet. 20:16:38 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:16:58 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:53 -!- merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has quit [] 20:18:06 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:11 dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 20:22:25 capitano [i=averagec@95.95.210.110] has joined #lisp 20:22:45 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:25:40 -!- qbg [n=qbg@65-73-86-56.dsl1.mnd.mn.frontiernet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:27:34 mrSpec pasted "strange compilation error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81671 20:27:53 could you tell me whats wrong with this program ? 20:28:24 (defvar *ble* (load-time-value (znajdz-pierwsze 10000))) ? 20:28:44 It is working on my PC, but when I compile it on Sphere Online Judge i got this error 20:29:11 znajdz-pierwsze == find-prime-numbers it returns array 20:29:27 which I'd like to have in *ble* 20:29:30 you are using load-time-value wrong, as i already said 20:29:36 ah 20:29:46 stassats: there's no point in l-t-ving a defvar. 20:30:06 l-t-ving ? 20:30:22 load-time-value'ing 20:30:35 stassats: at least it wasn't (defvar *beee* (loat-time-value (znajd-pierwsze 10000))) ;-) 20:31:10 *p_l* wonders how your typical lisp impl. might react to unicode symbols 20:31:20 hehe 20:31:21 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:31:37 but there is still this error 20:31:50 what else is wrong with this code ? 20:33:37 you are cheating 20:34:20 why ? 20:35:08 you want to do computations at compile time 20:35:31 p_l: sbcl has no problem 20:35:31 eh I can make this table by my own 20:35:35 finding first 10000 is a matter of milliseconds 20:35:47 primes 20:35:57 I know 20:36:23 but it is good time to learn about this load-time-value for me ;) 20:36:39 mega1: I was hoping that would fix things as that was the only place I could see things going awry, but no dice 20:37:00 load-time-value is for load, not compile-file 20:37:03 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:08 cp2: ... I've got this very bad urge to write some code with symbols written in kanji&kana 20:37:10 jlf [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-67.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 20:37:21 CL-USER> (defun  () (print " all around!")) 20:37:21  20:37:22 do it man! 20:37:59 manic12: I think it would be in category "don't send it to prospective employer" :P 20:38:23 or not 20:38:30 *stassats* is fuzzy 20:39:36 merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:57 eh sorry guys but g2g. I'll ask about this tomorrow. 20:42:13 -!- MrSpec is now known as spec[away] 20:43:34 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 20:44:01 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #lisp 20:45:21 -!- jao` [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:45:55 mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068135036.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:40 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:46:40 divz [n=divz@117.98.144.241] has joined #lisp 20:48:21 stassats: one more mail sent. 20:49:03 reading right now 20:49:06 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:50:22 eliminating temporary files seems to me to be a good thing 20:51:42 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:55:56 slyrus_: that's pretty surprising. Commenting out all references to lisp_thread next. 20:55:57 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:56:09 are you sure that this commit is the one? 20:56:12 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:32 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:53 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:57:00 stassats: clear-input/clear-output are also not "working" 20:57:04 working on it. 21:00:52 stassats: the example works now, if you rename stream-element-type to stream-stream-element-type 21:01:38 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@193.52.24.125] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:02:09 *mega1* times out 21:02:55 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:37 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:04:12 -!- hypno [n=hypno@195.43.248.100] has quit ["leaving"] 21:04:52 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:06:26 -!- schoppen1auer is now known as schoppen1auewa 21:06:29 -!- schoppen1auewa is now known as schoppenhauer 21:06:50 anyone know of movitz or sbcl-os are active? 21:07:43 sbcl-os is not active, but if someone wants to run with it I can mentor a bit, or at least explain where I was headed with it. 21:08:47 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:03 how far is it? looks as though it boots the machine and gets smp up and running 21:09:29 Not SMP. 21:09:56 It boots the machine, sets up ring-3 tasks, handles timer interrupts, and demand-pages some stuff from disk. 21:10:06 did you use oslib of some such? 21:10:10 Nope. 21:10:31 stassats: you also need to remove the definition of CLOSE, btw. 21:11:06 yep, i did remove it to compile 21:11:07 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:11:16 I used a Forth system as a bootloader, which initialized interrupt handling and the MMU and such, and then everything else is in straight-up lisp or ASM. 21:14:03 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:06 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@46.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:16:44 Hmmm... anyone here ever used the langutils package by Ian Eslick? 21:16:49 (or maybe he's here?) 21:16:56 and then I mean used it in SBCL? 21:17:45 (and I'm wondering if it's overkill anyway.. probably is, I just need to be able to count words in a text...) 21:18:53 oh... hhmmm.. I need to tell irssi to yell at me when someone contacts me directly... 21:19:36 nyef: forth system as bootloader? I was thinking of similar thing :D 21:20:00 uhm, mtd: yes, I'd be glad for the help, and yes I am actually trying to make a start with the ocr -> autotag thingy 21:20:34 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f53b0.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:20:35 (starting with the last part, actually... the autotag thing) 21:21:19 There isn't by any chance already a sbcl/common lisp package that does classification of texts using a bayesian approach? 21:21:29 Drakeson` [n=user@69-165-155-107.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:21:35 not wanting to do stuff that's already there (or easily adaptable) 21:21:43 thijso: I had seen one on common-lisp.net, and there was something about that in PCL :D 21:21:56 I'm looking mostly to the implementation of ifile and the chapter about bayesian filtering in PCL 21:22:22 god I hate x86 21:22:24 common-lisp.net, p_l ? Hhhmm, I'll go check that out first then 21:22:39 merimus: you're not the only one. 21:23:20 I'd love to rip every interface out except usb 21:24:00 or go back in time and put common interfaces in the bios 21:24:06 Yes, because doing 3d graphics over a USB interface is such fun. 21:24:08 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-100.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:24:18 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-100.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:24:22 heh, no... but nearly everyhting else would work 21:24:32 *p_l* would remove USB2.0 and tell everyone man up and use FireWire+real DMA controller+IO-MMU for anything hi-speed 21:25:23 rdma over infiniband... mmm 21:25:24 But isn't USB2.0 faster than FireWire? 21:25:25 hmm... that bayescl thingy on common-lisp.net seems stalled or has problem on the site... no docs, no source, only the blurb 21:25:29 pjb: bullshit 21:25:52 betamax! 21:26:48 pjb: that 480Mbit is wire speed. USB protocol design pretty much gives at most, I guess, 300MBit with good weather 21:27:02 theoretical speed of FW is 10x usb isn't it? 21:27:33 merimus: FW is basically RDMA over serial link with addressing :) 21:27:43 course there is usb-3 now 21:27:51 p_I: oh.... didn't know that. 21:28:16 merimus: it caused interesting problems due to most PCs not having IOMMU 21:28:36 as standard OHCI controller allowed people to crack your machine by overwriting OS :> 21:28:54 it would just be nice to have a standard interface to hardware 21:29:02 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:11 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:29:32 cheap, fast, high-bandwidth, etc. at the same time? 21:29:40 nope... just common 21:29:59 So... NuBus? 21:30:28 theoretically you can use a usb:audio interface and that's it 21:30:34 wasn't usb supposed to be common? 21:30:47 So was firewire 21:31:16 *stassats* has firewire, never used it 21:31:18 pjb: with usb-storage, device has to be polled for data (there's some rudimentary interrupt support, AFAIK). With 1394, you tell device a command and where it has to store data. And since all devices are equal, it can be done both ways (it's basically RDMA + some bus-handling) 21:31:21 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [] 21:31:23 did FW have device specs? 21:31:33 merimus: what kind of? 21:32:14 there's SBP-2, aka SCSI-over-1394 (you can connect any SCSI device to it, not only hard drives), DV and possible some more 21:32:33 hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 21:32:48 ie: usb has a interface for audio, keyboard, mouse, camera, printer, mass storage, nic, etc 21:33:31 merimus: I have yet to find functional common camera interface - there's "class" for it, but I haven't seen a situation where "one driver fits" 21:33:34 rvirding [n=rvirding@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:33:37 merimus: Yeah, but it's not sufficient. That gets you base functionality for a lot of devices, but there's still custom stuff. 21:33:59 90% of the time base functionality is good enough for me 21:34:12 I mean why the hell do people provide custom drivers for mice ?!? 21:34:55 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 21:34:57 -!- mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068135036.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:34:57 usb-printer afaik is nearly the same as LPT, HID, audio and mass storage are the only ones that really got supported (with storage being late) 21:35:29 NICs, while having "standard", follow the path of cameras 21:35:51 HID, printers etc. was USB target market in beginning, to replace serial and LPT 21:36:10 dats a good little nic, now give me the frame... give me.. damn it give me the damn frame! 21:36:20 -!- Drakeson [n=user@69-196-139-205.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [No route to host] 21:36:22 hahahaha 21:36:44 pardon me... my nic and I need to have a discussion... in the back. 21:37:08 frankly speaking, the only device I had seen that followed CDC spec for USB Ethernet was probably... a driver in usb-gadget support in linux 21:37:42 oh, and there's standardised modem protocol. pity not everyone follows it 21:38:17 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-160-160-149.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:38:21 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:38:29 well... I want keyboard, mouse, speakers, framebuffer, nic... I think that's about it 21:38:56 bulk storage? 21:39:03 oh... yea that too 21:39:05 :P 21:39:26 merimus: keyboard + mouse = USB, low-end speakers = USB, hi-end stuff = 1394, bulk storage = 1394b/c, video = 1394 or some local bus :P 21:39:36 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-165-124.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:55 there actually is a usb video display with usb-3.0 21:40:02 don't know how well it will work though 21:40:03 640kb is enough for everyone 21:40:05 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:40:35 merimus: there are already displays on USB2.0, but they don't have nice specs. fortunately for them, they don't need two-way access 21:40:36 I don't know what I'd do with 128TB of ram... but I'd love to be the guy who found out 21:41:23 uhm, you could fit many prime numbers into 128tb 21:41:46 you could draw enough power to black out your neighborhood :) 21:42:15 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:42:22 sgi Altix 4700, max configuration 128TB ram 21:42:34 well, AMD's Istanbul allows for 384 cores in one computer (as in single address space, cpu's interconnected through their own fabric, not as separate nodes with clustering soft) 21:43:05 benbelly: not necessarily, SiCortex makes nice power-efficient supercomputers :D 21:43:15 didn't they go bankrupt? 21:43:31 merimus: SiCorte? 21:43:32 yup. metaram too, while we're on the topic of storage. 21:43:35 *SiCortex 21:43:36 going bankrupt is the new going public 21:43:40 lol 21:43:40 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:42 heh 21:44:29 merimus: SiCortex apparently is still afloat 21:44:59 rjack [n=rjack@93-42-76-44.ip85.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 21:45:03 If I could get nicely working GPU for their PDS system, I'd love to have one :D 21:45:16 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:46:05 I thought I saw an article last month saying they were going chap 11 21:46:17 *shrug* 21:46:22 merimus: Their press-release doesn't say anything about it 21:46:23 Isn't chap 11 bankruptcy -protection-? 21:46:29 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:46:43 http://www.hpcwire.com/features/Powered-Down-SiCortex-to-Sell-Off-Assets-of-Company-46275157.html 21:47:53 I'd like to do some gpu work soon 21:48:00 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:48:14 well... gpgpu 21:48:39 ... great 21:50:41 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:50:58 -!- benbelly [n=bholm1@cpe-74-67-149-169.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:51:22 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-170-165.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 21:52:43 soo... what is left... IBM, Cray (running mostly on x86 nowadays, but still more interesting), NEC and Itanium? ;_; 21:53:01 p_l: what is left in terms of what? 21:53:37 p_l: processors? supercomputers? 21:54:57 merimus: non-x86 architectures outside embedded market. Afaik PPC workstations are still made by 3rd party companies, like YellowDog, but meh.. 21:55:47 What about those Java systems, the name of which escapes me at the current time? 21:56:08 p_l: outside embedded? Itanium, Power, still some arm I think 21:56:46 merimus: I meant for workstations. Though ARM gets more and more. No Itanium workstations anymore, though 21:56:47 is there still someone making powerpc machines? 21:57:04 There is still RS6k 21:57:17 nyef: azul? 21:57:17 although the term workstation is kinda fuzzy now 21:57:18 merimus: YellowDog makes PPC970 machines 21:58:04 merimus: AFAIK IBM no longer sells new POWER/PPC based workstations. Servers, sure (worked with those), but no workstations. Sun had pulled out as well. 21:59:14 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:59:33 p_l: depends on what you mean by workstation, a power 520 should could I think 22:00:17 well, I guess you can wire them for workstation use, or use old-style timesharing and remote X :) 22:01:50 p_l: ohh, ydl powerstation... sexy 22:01:53 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:02:52 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 22:03:03 merimus: SiCortex's PDS looked *very* yummy. Sure, it costs(ed) the price of beefed-up MacPro, but it had for 72 cpus and 96G of RAM... bargain sale xD 22:03:32 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 22:03:44 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:45 p_l: each of those cpu's was very small however. although that's pretty much what a blue gene is anyway 22:03:56 -!- tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:04:17 tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:33 merimus: AFAIK they used similar core to last MIPS64 offerings from SGI, with some special additions 22:05:16 but since it was much simpler than let's say, x86, they fit more of them :P 22:05:18 -!- Drakeson` [n=user@69-165-155-107.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:06:09 mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068135036.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:23 stassats`: Yes, azul. Clearly, I'm going to have to use a ghostbusters-based mnemonic for it. 22:06:36 p_l: it's quickly getting to the point that 8-16 highend x86 procs are very easy to get 22:07:12 p_l: and that's what you really have to compete with 22:07:21 -!- tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:07:43 p_l: don't get me wrong... I with x86 would burn to the ground... but it is fast and cheap 22:07:58 Well, SiCortex's selling point was that a 72core machine from them took less power as whole than CPU+GPU complex in standard home machine :D 22:08:03 seriously, what do you guys have against x86-64? 22:08:18 pkhuong: have you every written asm for it? 22:09:02 twick [n=user@john-marshall.sflc.info] has joined #lisp 22:09:23 pkhuong: essentially it's so complicated that you can't write asm for it anymore. it's got soo many instructions with soo many modes and different behaviors based on what mode it's in, going to, was in, and it's neighbor is in... 22:09:33 nyef: there is a program (whose name I forget) that comes with (xinput-related package that I forget) which is essentially xev for xinput devices, although I guess you're probably past that point by now 22:09:37 pkhuong: I'd have less against it if they dropped PC baggage. I mean, really dropped. Relaxing some in-order requirements could have been nice as well, methinks 22:09:47 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:09:51 xidump! 22:09:56 tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:07 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:23 wow, I just learned that I can't write' x86 asm. 22:10:38 pkhuong: how so ? 22:10:40 pkhuong: hell, i can't even read it :) 22:10:43 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:10:44 hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 22:10:54 merimus just told me so ;) 22:11:08 pkhuong: you can't. meaning writing optimized asm which keeps all the pipelines and all the hardware resources utilized is extremenly complicated 22:11:25 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:26 pkhuong: you do all the instruction reordering and such in your head? 22:11:37 no, the chip does that for him. 22:11:38 merimus: there are some crazy people who keep working like that for ffmpeg/x264 22:11:39 p_l: have you ever had to actually use a system with more relaxed memory ordering rules and multiple cores in anger? 22:11:53 merimus: to be clear, pkhuong is an sbcl hacker, so he knows a thing or two about it 22:12:24 merimus: I usually don't have to, that's the beauty of x86. I'd never write asm for Itanium, but x86? No problem. 22:12:36 -!- tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:13:21 pkhuong: but is your asm as optimized as compiled code? 22:13:26 pkhuong: I added that "methinks" to say that "it's personal and probably wrong opinion of undereducated peon" (not joking). But I did have a laugh seeing some funny memory tests on Core 2 Quad, where certain workload killed performance due to cache coherency 22:13:49 Okay, I'm gone for a bit. 22:13:53 -!- nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving the office."] 22:13:54 the x86 will do "some" reorderings for you... but it is still very easy to but things in the wrong order 22:14:40 *p_l* thinks he is staying awake for too long and might possibly start talking dumber than usual... time to hit the bed, I gues 22:14:57 keeping track of which pipeline is in which stage is a real pain in the ass 22:15:24 and also which reorderings it will and won't do 22:15:26 merimus: why do you care? 22:15:54 merimus: i hit the same performance as gcc -O3 on really optimisable kernels (dotprod) with a simple code generator that didn't do any scheduling. Get the memory accesses right, and the rest likely won't change anything. 22:16:02 merimus: I wouldn't like to write assembly for some cpus (like Alpha. I love the architecture, I won't dare writing too much assembly) 22:16:18 hefner: the main reason someone would want to hand code asm is for performance. (at least that mostly why I did it) otherwise you just let the compiler do it 22:16:52 pkhuong: the place I got sick of it was with the sse modes and what not 22:16:59 you forgot that some people here are compiler writers 22:17:26 merimus: no, sometimes you code in asm because it's the easiest way to express yourself. And that's happened to me with x86. Surely x86 asm isn't that bad to write by hand. 22:17:56 no, I'm aware of that. but the instruction schedulers for example are very complicated now 22:18:03 what's wrong with SSE? It's one of the most orthogonal parts of x86; you ought to like it. 22:18:25 merimus: what's the alternative? a dumber chip with less behind the scenes magic, where you have to work even harder? 22:18:47 it's been a long while since I looked at it. but there was something to do with switching modes and pipelines stalls when doing so 22:18:59 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:19:25 merimus: sure, don't make it move data from the FP integer units. Not hard to understand or implement. 22:19:46 hefner: personally I don't see why you need that many instructions. effectively they add new instructions to make up for ineficiencies in the chip 22:20:08 pkhuong: ok, but sometimes you want to do that. vector ops for example. 22:20:22 what else would you do? Not have useful instructions? Bust the L1I out writing horizaontal microcode? 22:20:38 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:20:55 *p_l* is not sure his x87 unit gets any instructions nowadays from most of his software 22:20:56 have a robust (yet resonable) set of instructions and make a fast chip 22:21:34 p_l: all the transcendentals. 22:23:34 I think I managed to use integer ops in only 3 places for SSE complexes. 22:23:46 I do think the vector instructions are a mess. I haven't seriously studied them, don't know what the alternative would be (horizontal microcode doesn't sound so bad there) 22:24:06 do you really need a hardware instruction to count the number of leading 0 bits in a word? 22:24:13 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:45 or 15 instructions for reording the bytes in a word? 22:24:50 damn right you do: HW can do it much more efficiently than SW, especially given that the FPU implements that anyway. 22:25:20 bah, I want a faster chip... not new instructions 22:25:24 there are 2 bytes in a word, meaning there are only 4 combinations. 22:25:56 you don't need BSF/R the same way you don't need vectorial or floating point instructions. 22:26:03 meant, bytes in 64bit register. 22:26:22 and another set for reordering bytes in a 128bit register 22:26:50 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-100.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:26:55 pkhuong: I recall that GCC uses SSE routines for FP. Don't know what other instructions end in x87 (anyway, my biggest "against" x86 is how no-one is willing to break compatibility with IBM PC, which is less about CPU, more about architecture) 22:28:00 p_l: glibc (well m) implements sin, cos, log etc with x87. 22:28:15 pkhuong: in assembly? 22:28:27 yes. 22:28:40 p_l: does your computer have ISA slots? 22:29:09 hefner: actually, yes, they just pumped the clock to 33MHz and cut to 4bit bus 22:29:53 just dropping the stack based fpu stuff would prolly make a huge difference 22:31:05 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:31:34 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:31:47 *p_l* wants to try by himself to learn how hard it is the "hard way"... maybe one day I'll see it ;-) 22:32:18 The stck isn't all bad. for example. 22:32:40 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:32:52 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:32:56 it's not bad... just felt /different/ 22:33:45 heh, I was just irritated that I wouldn't mearly drop an sse instruction in my code 22:33:53 as for too many instructions, I know already that I'll be adding additional ones to MMIX if I finish the ones from MMIXware 22:33:56 actually it might have been mmx at the time 22:34:21 mmix looked really neat actually 22:34:47 MMX officially requires an instruction to switch to MMX mode from x87. In practice, I don't think any chip needed that. 22:35:30 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6B842.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 22:35:31 -!- segv [n=mb@93-39-21-20.ip73.fastwebnet.it] has quit [] 22:35:47 courser that was also when I was upset at them for not doing real ieee fp 22:36:01 they use more bits 22:36:13 pkhuong: I wouldn't be surprised if someone exploited mmx/x87 overlap to do some weird tricks 22:36:55 At the behest of Kahan. You can force IEEE rounding mode, and use the full precision to perform intermediate computationw ith correct rounding (e.g. MAC or complex division). 22:37:23 that's what we had to do... unfortunately we didn't know that before hand :P 22:37:30 RamzaB [n=lobomonh@ip72-197-207-250.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:48 p_l: yeah. You can use the MMX instructions to treat the stack as a register file. Just have to rotate the stack back to the initial offset after each pop/operation. 22:37:56 merimus: rtfm. 22:38:11 pkhuong: indeed. 22:38:44 pkhuong: but it worked great on the hp, sun, dec, and ibm :D 22:38:56 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:39:47 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:39:52 pkhuong: BTW, as you probably know more in that manner - which vector extension would you recommed to study for design? I heard some nice stuff about Altivec, haven't really looked that much into SSE and AVX, though. 22:41:22 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.113.98] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:41:45 altivec is dead and might have been hard to scale with its full permute. AVX seems like a nice intermediate between altivec's generality and SSE. There's a couple threads on the topic on realworldtech 22:43:54 thx 22:44:02 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 22:45:11 afk 22:47:14 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:44 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:48:54 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:52:11 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:52:54 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 22:53:40 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 22:57:39 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:58:07 kernel /kenrel.tomoyo.2.6.30 rood=/dev/sda6 quiet <--- why you shouldn't edit grub config half asleep 22:58:36 good thing it's not lilo 22:58:58 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:01 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:01:37 -!- paw [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:01:47 well, lilo would fail during mbr generation 23:02:10 -!- hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [] 23:02:10 still, it left me puzzled for a while 23:02:26 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:06:55 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:37 -!- prip [n=_prip@host148-127-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:09:11 also, intel's drivers still mangled, news at 11 23:09:29 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:06 prip [n=_prip@host82-194-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 23:13:44 mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:16:28 thijso: point me in the right direction :) 23:21:29 ruediger_ [n=ruediger@62-47-149-232.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 23:22:20 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:23:15 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 23:24:23 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:28:43 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:57 Intensity [i=[1quCYO1@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 23:29:22 -!- asksol [n=ask@114.242.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:29:26 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 23:29:55 -!- spec[away] [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [] 23:29:58 -!- bobf_ is now known as bobf 23:31:05 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 23:34:14 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:34:20 I think the SBCL manual should say that it's a good idea to call sb-ext:process-wait and sb-ext:process-close on :wait nil processes. 23:34:41 doing so seems to make fbsd and darwin, at least, much happier when generating large numbers of processes. 23:36:09 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 23:36:24 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:37:24 anyone know of a mod_lisp tutorial, i keep getting 'error opening connection to Lisp' with me simple script 23:37:54 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 23:38:02 Guthur: have you looked on cliki? IIRC there's one referenced there. 23:38:06 -!- rjack [n=rjack@93-42-76-44.ip85.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["leaving"] 23:38:43 pjb thanks i missed that 23:38:48 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-132-43.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:41:03 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-39.dial.nortenet.pt] has joined #lisp 23:43:17 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:44:13 -!- RamzaB [n=lobomonh@ip72-197-207-250.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:44:13 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:44:13 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:44:13 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-a83d259e6401fe25] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:44:13 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:44:13 -!- Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:44:13 -!- herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:44:13 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:48:25 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:49:03 RamzaB [n=lobomonh@ip72-197-207-250.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:03 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:03 dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 23:49:03 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-a83d259e6401fe25] has joined #lisp 23:49:03 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:03 Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 23:49:03 herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 23:49:03 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:05 -!- divz [n=divz@117.98.144.241] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:49:14 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:35 anyone seen lichtblau around lately? 23:49:52 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:50:25 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:51:01 mqt_ [i=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:02 -!- mqt_ [i=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:53:11 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:53:55 slyrus: doesn't that kind of defeat the point of :wait nil ? 23:57:49 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp