00:00:32 Basically, every key would have modifier power, and you type various words or syntactic elements with key combinations. 00:01:08 Sounds interesting in a factorial way 00:01:46 Check out the Twiddler - it's a chord keyboard. 00:01:46 Guys, I want to live up the programming session of my forum. Do you know SPOJ and Project Euler? How do they compare? Which is better suited to programmers that will do a little coding for fun? 00:02:15 nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:18 drforr: Is that a keyboard or a keyer? 00:02:32 Hello all. 00:02:39 hi! 00:02:43 I suppose you'd call it a keyboard. 00:02:49 konr: only did a few euler's... it was fun :) (not much more to say about it. It focuses on algorithms, not on software design) 00:03:20 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-53-146.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:03:32 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-53-146.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:04:02 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:04:18 drforr: Dunno. The handykey website now links to some other website that requires flash to get in. 00:05:02 Bummer, I haven't checked in a long time. 00:05:06 Bloody flash... 00:05:30 <_3b> just go all the way to foot switches and voice recognition, no hand problems there :) 00:05:59 voice recognition is really slow for issuing commands vs keystrokes or clicks 00:06:38 also awkward to use in public 00:08:25 Yeah. 00:08:32 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:08:37 You know, a chorded keyboard sounds perfect, actually. 00:08:51 No stretching your fingers in weird angles. 00:08:55 There are developments in works to do voice recognition on the muscle movements, without a need for out loud vocalization. They already got the vowels recognized. 00:09:01 *Phoodus* would prefer a huge keyboard with tons of keys 00:09:41 I remember liking the Sparc keyboards with the extra copy/paste/etc keys to the left 00:09:56 Phoodus: But wouldn't the ideal interface, short of direct brain plugs, be a chorded interface where your fingers hardly have to move at all? 00:09:56 Phoodus: http://www.flickr.com/photos/e-z/17023214/ 00:10:09 parolang: no, too much interdependent coordination involved 00:10:25 single motions/clicks are much faster & easier 00:10:52 pjb: whee! 00:11:04 *_3b* has enough trouble with timing/ordering with single finger per action :( 00:11:08 but of course, keys being grouped into feelable clusters is useful 00:11:22 like the function keys being split into groups of 4, cursor keys in a T-shape, etc 00:11:37 <_3b> or with the amount of chording in normal keyboard usage (shift, etc) 00:12:55 Phoodus: there are customizable keyboard systems where you can place the keys yourself. 00:13:26 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:13:36 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:14:30 *nyef* sighs. 00:14:55 <_3b> http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net//122keyterkey.html has lots of keys 00:15:28 I just used #:t as a field name because it ends up as part of a function arglist and the "correct" name of the argument is t. 00:15:33 Phoodus: Well, don't think of those one handed cyborg keyers. I'm more thinking of a keyboard that has groves shaped like your hand, and each finger has, maybe, two or three keys. They can be pressed one at a time like a regular keyboard or in combination. Very little stretching or contracting of fingers. 00:15:51 <_3b> nyef: i think we ended up calling those _t in cl-opengl :( 00:16:15 Phoodus: But yeah, the regular keyboard does have a spatial layout that is particularly intuitive, maybe its important to tap into that. 00:16:26 fingers shouldn't stretch or contract anyway. Your hands should float & amble over the keyboard 00:16:52 On the upside, I did manage to get texture mapping to happen. 00:16:57 only when doing long-distance chording is finger positioning an issue, so programs should do that very little 00:16:58 Phoodus: gah, I'm doing it wrong 00:17:12 <_3b> nyef: cool 00:17:48 The final hurdle, of course, was the "why are all of the faces -white-?" thing. 00:17:50 <_3b> nyef: any idea how performance is through glx? 00:18:05 <_3b> did you upload mipmaps or disable mipmap filtering? 00:18:18 Nah, it was that the gl:enable call was implemented wrong. 00:18:30 <_3b> ah, that could be a problem too :) 00:18:35 Yeah. 00:18:49 so, all systems go to reimplement wings3d in mcclim? =p 00:18:56 Of course, the request isn't even -mentioned- in the encoding documentation. 00:19:19 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:19:22 hefner: If you want, but the texture mapping support is... not pretty. 00:20:23 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has left #lisp 00:22:24 nyef pasted "This sort of "not pretty"" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81387 00:22:59 Well, gotta go watch big bang theory :) 00:23:13 parolang: so much stress 00:23:28 that's.. well, it shows initiative. 00:23:34 <_3b> heh, that no cffi policy leads to some fun projects :) 00:23:38 ;D 00:24:18 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:24:20 Yeah, I figured that the first thing to do would be to get -a- RenderLarge request going and worry about generic stuff later. 00:24:28 <_3b> wonder how hard it would be to make cl-opengl's binding generator make sb-alien bindings instead 00:24:51 intangible awesomeness! 00:25:09 The encoding specification also lied about how RenderLarge requests are encoded. 00:25:36 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 00:25:53 I'm not familiar with this stuff. Is that the same things that a large non-clx request goes through? 00:25:59 _3b: what would be the purpose of it ? 00:26:05 _3b: How about doing an sb-alien based clx to go with? 00:26:27 fitter, happier, more productive. 00:26:38 hefner: It might be in a similar vein, but I'm not certain since I'm not familiar with the big-requests extension. 00:26:47 Oh, wait, I remember. No, it isn't. 00:26:47 ah. 00:26:52 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 00:27:17 -!- jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:27:25 <_3b> nyef: implementing clx in lisp doesn't seem quite as unreasonable as glx 00:28:20 _3b: The problem is that the client-side glx libraries tend to depend on client-side xlib. 00:28:33 shame cl-opengl had to go and change the interface again :) 00:29:01 <_3b> someone at one point claimed that cl-opengl worked with clx created windows, never actually saw code though 00:29:01 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:23 <_3b> hefner: what changed? 00:29:38 Possibly does. But it'd likely have more than one connection to the X server running. 00:30:08 _3b: the interface exported by the opengl package 00:30:30 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-2-221.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:30:36 <_3b> hefner: well, the API of OpenGL itself changes, so some changes to cl-opengl are to be expected :) 00:30:58 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:30:59 <_3b> and arguably cl-opengl is suffieciently unfinished that api changes are to be expected :( 00:31:24 _3b: http://ahefner.livejournal.com/4704.html was my survey of the various opengl bindings of days past 00:32:02 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 00:32:10 <_3b> there are a few more released since cl-opengl as well:/ 00:33:24 Oh, and I pushed some glx fixes to my public clx tree. 00:33:35 And I have more stuff to sort out in that direction as well. 00:33:43 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has left #lisp 00:35:11 -!- milanj- [n=milan@93.86.230.113] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:35:19 <_3b> ah, you meant it changed the interface relative to previous gl bindings? 00:36:02 Horrible project name idea of the day: A 3d-modeller named "redbull". 00:36:29 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-141-33.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:36:39 *_3b* needs project names for a (not-quite-common) lisp to swf bytecode compiler 00:37:03 _3b: "Tom Swift and his Amazing Bytecode Compiler" 00:37:08 <_3b> avm2 bytecode rather 00:37:18 Hrm. That's harder. 00:37:38 (Really, "Tom SWiFt..." 00:37:54 -!- amblerc [n=user@24-180-81-97.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:38:00 "Yes, it does follow references", Tom said pointedly. 00:38:02 minion, what does avm stand for? 00:38:02 Amaranthaceous Vertically Mellit 00:38:10 "cAVeMan2"? 00:38:48 <_3b> hmm, caveman lisp isn't too bad :) 00:38:59 drforr: "Yes, it does automatic storage management", Tom said collectedly. 00:39:35 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:40:23 nyef annotated #81387 "GenTextures, sortof" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81387#1 00:41:19 how to install asdf on windows? 00:43:38 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:44:06 kanmahotell: I wouldn't know, my lisp system (SBCL) installs it automatically. 00:44:24 kanmahotell: which lisp? 00:44:34 clisp doesn't include it, so you need to (load "asdf.lisp") 00:45:00 then push directores to the asdf path (can't remember the variable name offhand) which contain your .asd files 00:45:21 best to do that in your project scripts or your lisp startup file 00:46:03 asdf:*central-registry*? 00:46:17 yeah, that one 00:55:11 clisp 2.47 00:56:19 I can't deal with repository 00:56:36 asdf loaded sucsesfull 00:56:57 i put .asdfrc.lisp script and it's loaded ok 00:57:17 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:57:26 (load "c:\\Program Files\\clisp-2.47\\asdf\\asdf.lisp") 00:57:26 (push "c:\\Program Files\\clisp-2.47\\asdf\\registry\\" asdf:*central-registry*) 00:57:48 -!- chessguy_ [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 00:57:49 it's .lisprc.lisp file 00:58:30 So i want install cffi for example 00:58:58 -!- mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068087168.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:00:03 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@wsip-70-184-159-102.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:00:19 <_3b> either push the directory containing cffi onto asdf:*central-registry*, or make a shortcut to the cffi.asd in the directory that is already in *central-registry* 01:00:48 I'm just starting to learn; can someone type out a flip macro off the top of their head really quick? I'm trying to implement one and things are weird. 01:00:59 A "flip" macro? 01:01:10 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:20 (defmacro flip () `(print 'whee!)) 01:01:32 aw damn, hefner beat me to it 01:05:55 :P 01:06:13 as in the haskell 01:06:24 s/the// 01:06:29 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:06:35 swap the args in a two-arg function call 01:07:20 I would write that as a function, unless I've missed the point. 01:07:35 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:07:40 -!- linguini [n=user@c-67-171-211-155.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:07:52 the point is to see how it would be done 01:07:55 it's not for practical purposes 01:09:09 can you give an example of how it would be used? 01:09:54 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 01:10:09 (flip (/ 1 2)) returns 2 01:11:12 (defmacro flip (form) (destructuring-bind (function x y) form `(,function ,y ,x))) 01:12:05 <_3b> why not just (defmacro flip ((function x y)) `(,function ,y ,x)) ? 01:12:15 heh, because I'm distracted 01:12:21 <_3b> good reason 01:13:24 *_3b* thinks it would be more fun to rotatef the form and break things though :) 01:14:08 merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:44 -!- Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has quit ["Balooga has no reason"] 01:15:20 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:16:00 so when is this Caveman Lisp going to emerge into the sun? I'm just dying to write toys other people can actually run, and I'm way to stubborn to pay for whatever outrageously overpriced thing adobe must sell 01:16:26 <_3b> there is an old version released already 01:16:31 _3b: that's the sort of thing I was imagining, thanks 01:16:46 _3b: but, what's the difference between `(,function ,y ,x) and (function y x)? 01:16:58 hefner: compile them and other people will be able to run them. 01:17:09 <_3b> Ralith: `(...) creates a list, (...) is a function call 01:17:11 hefner: it's not like python or perl or php where you need an interpreter. 01:17:23 _3b: ...huh. either I misread PCL or it mislead me. 01:17:30 _3b: so what's the function of , in there? 01:17:35 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-56.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:17:53 <_3b> Ralith: ` is like ' except you can use , and ,@ to turn off quoting for specific elements 01:18:11 <_3b> `(,function ,y ,x) is approximately equivalent to (list function y x) 01:18:17 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 01:18:22 ahhhh 01:18:23 I see. 01:18:28 that makes sense and jives with PCL's description 01:18:48 *hefner* sneers 01:19:17 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 01:19:23 hefner: what? you trying to troll or something? 01:19:44 <_3b> hefner: i got distracted with the parsing/generation stuff, and the svg stuff, hoping to get back to the compiler part soon though 01:20:00 <_3b> *swf parsing/generation stuff 01:20:09 Ralith: lurk harder 01:20:23 hefner: have some common politeness. 01:21:13 -!- nenorbot [n=nix@bzq-219-145-16.static.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:21:20 There any implementation which have native threads? ie: can do multiprocessor computations? 01:21:35 <_3b> merimus: sbcl, ccl, some of the commercial CLs 01:21:54 <_3b> ecl and abcl also 01:22:13 sbcl also have concurrent GC? 01:22:24 <_3b> not particularly 01:22:34 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 01:22:54 <_3b> though it does some allocation per thread i think 01:23:41 hmm, ccl is one I havn't looked at before 01:24:21 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-129-37.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:24:38 you probably want to use SBCL if your performance bottleneck lies in lisp code 01:25:29 *hefner* is, incidentally, staring at Pierre Mai's inflate/deflate/chipz benchmark table at the moment 01:26:51 There any project to build something in the spirit of the old lispm's? 01:27:42 merimus: There are a couple of LispOS projects out there, if that's what you mean. 01:27:47 <_3b> merimus: movitz or sbcl-os maybe? or mcclim or emacs depending on what you mean by 'in the spirit' 01:28:17 single user workstation os in lisp 01:28:26 or squeak, for sufficiently loose definitions of lisp 01:28:26 why single user? 01:28:50 <_3b> you can still run genera if you want 01:28:56 single user makes many things much simpler 01:28:59 merimus: http://www.informatimago.com/linux/emacs-on-user-mode-linux.html 01:31:05 -!- ausente is now known as dalton 01:31:45 <_3b> wonder how the cl-mpi mandelbrot stuff (including future optimized versions) compares to the cuda mandelbrot demo 01:32:41 that is a very apples -> bricks comparisoin 01:33:44 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-4b2e7c737e633106] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:34:00 <_3b> well, describing the features of apples and bricks would be an interesting answer in this case :) 01:34:17 *nyef* has this sudden horrible thought of doing mandelbrot rendering on the q950 floppy controller IOP. 01:34:49 (A 10-MHz 6502 with 32k of RAM.) 01:35:01 <_3b> nyef: and then tape a needle to the floppy drive head and draw the results directly? :) 01:35:06 mpi is a message passing whereas cuda is more like vector processing 01:35:37 _3b: Umm... No. 01:35:42 <_3b> merimus: right, but does mandelbrot parallellize better with 1 or the other? 01:36:04 mandelbrot falls into the "embarasing parallel" case 01:36:22 ... even if an interface from an apple floppy port to a plotter might be amusing. 01:36:57 cuda doesn't currently do double precision floating point very well 01:37:08 and only really works for certain types of problems 01:37:13 mpi is much more generic 01:37:28 (The reason I even thought of this is that one of the ADB controllers that apple came up with was called "CUDA".) 01:37:59 <_3b> true, i guess the double-float usage in that example would hurt for cuda (though it still seems to do fairly well) 01:38:28 <_3b> hard to say how much of that is from it being fast and how much is it being good at staying responsive though 01:39:34 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:43:24 targeting cuda with lisp would be quite interesting actually 01:44:24 <_3b> on my list of things to do at some point (unfortunately fairly far down the list though) 01:44:36 *_3b* thinks it would be fun to revive *lisp 01:44:48 <_3b> (or cmlisp, but xappings make my brain hurt) 01:44:53 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-73-161.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:44:58 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 01:45:22 Aww... but there was a section on xappings in one (or both?) of the CLtLs. 01:45:56 working in c++ simply offends my sensabilities 01:46:41 <_3b> nyef: that the bit about the worst format string ever? 01:47:08 Might have been, but I thought it was the bit about reader macros. 01:47:21 <_3b> looks like both 01:47:31 gunter [n=gunter@87.127.97.39] has joined #lisp 01:48:01 <_3b> xappings are an interesting abstraction, but i think it requires more of an SSC than i'm up to writing currently :/ 01:48:53 How much more? 01:48:58 <_3b> *lisp on the other hand looks like it could be implemented fairly directly on recent cuda 01:49:35 programming for the stream procs lends itself to a pure functional style 01:49:45 <_3b> don't really remember, been a while since i looked at cmlisp stuff (or *lisp for that matter) 01:58:51 <_3b> *lisp has the advantage of being able to yell a lot in the code too :) 01:58:54 _3b: the thing with active collections is that you can delay the smartness to runtime, with a combination of non-strict evaluation and runtime compilation (whether to code or to something more pedestrian) 01:59:56 <_3b> pkhuong: 'active collections' meaning stuff like xappings? 02:00:25 -!- gunter [n=gunter@87.127.97.39] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.1.1"] 02:00:33 _3b: yes. Where you work with collection/block -oriented operations. 02:00:54 scode_ [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 02:01:33 that's especially true if the collections abstract away data distribution in a NUMA/distributed setting, since element-wise computations are really lossy anyway (: 02:01:57 <_3b> yeah, not saying it is a bad idea, just beyond my limited compiler skills :) 02:02:12 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.251.181] has joined #lisp 02:02:52 -!- scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:03:18 -!- mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:03:24 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:03:56 there's no need for an SSC, though. You can just delay the computation and build an expression graph/tree instead, and then compile that to a plan without any static analysis. 02:05:02 <_3b> that probably counts as SS for me :p 02:05:39 <_3b> though i'd have to go back and look at it again, now that i've actually implemented some of a compiler 02:06:02 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.141.183] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:06:09 imo, static analyses and smrtness mostly come into play when the overhead due to the delaying and the runtime compilation are significant. If you're going to be shipping data to the gpu/cluster anyway, ... 02:08:12 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2EB51.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:11:35 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-5-216.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:14:32 sunwukong [n=vukung@ortros.den.rcast.u-tokyo.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 02:14:56 gunter [n=gunter@87.127.97.39] has joined #lisp 02:22:02 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:22:48 tomodon [n=tom@ool-4351e28f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:13 is anyone here bored and willing to take a short interview, older the better 02:25:01 chavo_ [n=user@c-66-41-11-10.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:13 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-66-41-11-10.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:26:36 chavo_ [n=user@c-66-41-11-10.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:32 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:30:00 -!- merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:30:02 clhs make-sequence 02:30:02 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_seq.htm 02:30:20 Should gen-textures return a list or an array? 02:31:44 *_3b* wonders how often people allocate textures in blocks these days 02:32:20 ... So, VALUES? 02:32:46 <_3b> not sure i would go that far, but it is an interesting idea... 02:32:58 Well, if the common case is single-allocation... 02:33:17 And, hell, this is my CLX tree, so I can easily get away with it for a while. 02:33:27 Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:39 <_3b> it is in my code, but it seems like the next most common case would be large blocks 02:34:37 Well, in my code singular allocation is infinitely more common than multiple allocation (by one case). 02:34:55 <_3b> i've been meaning to write a single-return version for cl-opengl 02:35:18 I just picked a sequence type of LIST and passed the result to VALUES-LIST. 02:35:49 jlf` [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-67.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 02:38:34 And I think this is about as good as it can get without me figuring out what to do about the pixel data upload requests. 02:39:41 nyef annotated #81387 "As good as it's getting tonight" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81387#2 02:40:32 -!- kanmahotell [i=kanmahot@144-211-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [] 02:43:00 <_3b> looks like fun :p 02:43:04 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:16 Yeah, but debugging it was a pain. 02:43:30 <_3b> yeah, i'd imagine so 02:43:49 Especially with asynchronous error notifications and the spec being wrong about the encoding in places. 02:44:31 *hefner* usually has a rough enough time straightening out a new opengl program even without the underlying glx implementation being incomplete 02:44:52 *_3b* needs to hurry up and get back to cl-opengl dev, people started sending patches to the main tree again 02:45:18 Heh. 02:45:22 <_3b> hopefully converting to git will help with merges 02:45:27 hah 02:45:52 <_3b> darcs hypothesis of patches seemed a bit incomplete last time i merged :( 02:46:14 Yeah, I was impressed by darcs at one point, but that point was a while ago. 02:48:18 <_3b> then there is the question of figuring out if i actually like my tree or not 02:49:05 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:49:37 <_3b> or if it would be better if it just dropped a bunch of old GL cruft 02:49:53 You don't like your tree, and secretly want to use CLX instead. :-P 02:50:35 <_3b> nah, i just secretly want to drop a /lot/ of gl cruft, including the less old stuff :) 02:51:21 *_3b* has no need for support for intel cards, or nvidia cards older than geforce 8 02:51:28 jesus 02:52:06 way to write software no one can run :) 02:52:07 Seems like a rather short list... 02:52:24 <_3b> hefner: my target market could run it 02:52:50 <_3b> nyef: it is 3 generations of cards 02:54:17 Hrm. "00:05.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation C51 [Geforce 6150 Go] (rev a2)". 02:54:37 My most advanced video device. 02:54:50 My second most advanced is an NV04. 02:55:15 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:55:17 <_3b> 02:00.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation GeForce GTX 285 (rev a1) :p 02:55:34 Plus, as a laptop user, I take what I can get. 02:55:43 *_3b* spent way too much on last computer upgrade, really should have stayed with the gf8 02:55:55 <_3b> yeah, even old nvidia stuff is good for a laptop 02:56:20 I've had this thing for a year and a half now. 02:56:21 <_3b> too much intel in the laptop market :( 02:56:35 And it only started working mostly right about six months ago. 02:57:11 *hefner* no longer understands the GeForce numbering scheme 02:58:10 <_3b> all i know is this one is fast, and supports the 1 feature my gf8 was missing to do *lisp :) 02:58:38 *hefner* bought an 8800-something a couple years ago, has never run anything more sophisticated than quake 3 on it 02:58:41 <_3b> (specifically logic ops to combine multiple writes to the same location) 02:58:51 Hrm... CLX doesn't support Xinput, does it? 03:01:44 -!- ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 03:04:58 <_3b> hefner: you could always run some of the cuda sdk demos, those will give it a workout :) 03:05:36 I did download that a couple weeks ago. I suppose I could try to install it. 03:06:41 <_3b> nbody and Mandelbrot are good ones 03:12:18 <_3b> gotta love interactive mandelbrot in a 3800x1060 window :p 03:15:10 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:16:19 coderdad_ [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:52 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:20:24 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:20:52 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 03:25:51 -!- Corun [n=Corun@94-194-31-231.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:26:17 _3b: What size screen? 03:26:37 <_3b> 1920x1200 + 1920x1080 03:27:12 inches :) 03:27:27 <_3b> ah, 24 and 22 i think 03:27:40 Okay, just curious what people run these days. 03:29:01 *_3b* might not be a good indicator of that sort of thing 03:29:06 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:29:52 <_3b> you might find this interesting though if you havent seen it :http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/ 03:29:56 Sample size gets larger on every response. 03:31:18 screen size isn't on there though 03:32:01 <_3b> you could probably assume ~100dpi and calculate from resolution 03:32:44 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:18 Yeah. 03:37:25 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-22-53.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:37:34 Good morning. 03:37:48 evening 03:38:19 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:41:09 dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-198-84.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:00 -!- tomodon [n=tom@ool-4351e28f.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 03:46:22 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-129-25.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 03:48:05 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:48:24 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-19-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:31 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey` 03:48:41 After poking around with it and using it for a project, Clojure is pretty awesome. 03:49:03 Any CCL users here? I'm trying to figure out what CCL for string-to-octects is? 03:49:35 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:49:57 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.0.139] has joined #lisp 03:50:06 probably the same as it is allegro 03:51:13 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-125-18.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:55 -!- coderdad_ [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:52:38 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 03:53:06 manic12: not quite. But somehow my apropos found something this time it failed to before. 03:54:13 ( 03:54:26 er, I probably mispelled 'octet' or something before. 03:55:29 it probably just converts 16 or 8 bit chars into bytes in the endian format of the machine 03:56:01 ... Something has been screwing with my windows startup. Ineptly. 03:56:17 No doubt. But I didn't know what the function to do it was. I found ccl::encode-string-to-octets 03:56:54 oh 03:56:59 -!- Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:57:09 i didn't understand what you were asking 03:57:43 Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:44 ccl:with-encoded-cstrs is often handy when you want to put the contents of a lisp string into a (stack-allocated) buffer you can pass to foreign code. 03:58:41 I was just looking for the right thing to throw into Salza's STRING-TO-OCTETS function. 03:59:57 Mmmm. Maybe not. All my cl-pdf generated pdfs are blank now. Never mind. 03:59:59 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:00:22 Ralith_ [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 04:00:44 -!- Ralith_ is now known as Ralith 04:02:45 -!- jho [n=jh@unaffiliated/cene] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:03:14 -!- dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-198-84.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:08:56 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:10:20 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 04:19:42 tseug [n=tseug3@cpe-70-112-21-137.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:20:57 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 04:21:43 saikat_ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 04:25:04 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:56 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-66-41-11-10.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:26:07 illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:02 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:13 hippee-lee [n=hippee-l@97-124-153-194.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:17 dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-198-84.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:26 evening 04:30:32 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.132.119] has joined #lisp 04:37:09 -!- hippee-lee [n=hippee-l@97-124-153-194.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit ["googled it"] 04:38:53 Hello slyrus. 04:39:32 Oh. It's 11:40pm already. 04:39:51 I should be asleep already. 04:39:57 -!- nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 04:40:21 |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E473BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:26 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:42:15 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 04:42:55 evening slyrus. 04:43:14 hey gigamonkey. how goes the typesetting? 04:43:45 We're writing a server that's intended to be long-lived, but we've got quite a few gensyms continually used 04:43:56 I suspect this will eventually leak memory? How do you get around that? 04:44:25 btw, many of the gensyms are put in the keyword package 04:45:04 slyrus, goodish. I'm still waiting to hear back from Apress. Some folks here the other night convinced me that Apress couldn't possibly be actually typesetting the book in Word. 04:45:33 Though I think I may abandon my dreams of hanging punctuation and other microtypography and just use XeLateX which groks OpenType fonts out of the box. 04:46:25 Phoodus: putting gensyms in a package doesn't really make any sense. 04:46:44 clhs: intern 04:46:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm 04:47:07 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E476C9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:47:36 I guess you could use IMPORT but that'd be weird. 04:52:42 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-129-25.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 04:55:08 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:33 Phoodus: It sounds like you need ot GC your gensyms? 05:04:33 -!- dys` [n=andreas@p5B315853.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:06:03 gigamonkey: there's a bunch of different packages asserting the same type of stuff into a knowledge base. We just keywordify everything 05:06:27 I'm trying to google weak references/hashtables/sets 05:07:02 It seems that some lisp vendors add support for weak types; is there a common library for that sort of thing? 05:07:05 -!- gunter [n=gunter@87.127.97.39] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 05:07:42 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-8-109.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 05:08:07 gigamonkey: glad to hear somebody talked some sense into them :) 05:08:52 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-53-146.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:10:24 -!- dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-198-84.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:13:26 Phoodus: You're using gensyms to create identifiers for weak types? 05:14:16 well, I'm slamming everything into the keyword pakcage currently 05:14:23 however, we're looking at generalizing this problem 05:15:07 hence looking at doing our own flyweighting with weak structures 05:16:29 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.0.139] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:17:09 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.17.245] has joined #lisp 05:18:03 dys` [n=andreas@p5B315853.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:54 seekmit [n=sonu@117.197.58.64] has joined #lisp 05:24:36 -!- colton [n=colton@ip72-220-44-155.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:24:47 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["g'night"] 05:25:44 The-Kenny [n=moritz@80.135.164.58] has joined #lisp 05:26:17 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:51 Hello Lisp! (a newbie, just testing) 05:29:26 Is this place always so deserted or am I doing something wrong (no clue about IRC really). 05:29:50 no 05:30:15 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 05:30:30 I guess all lispers are busy doing stuff ... 05:31:08 yeah, every now and then people will look up from what they are doing and you will see a flurry of activity 05:32:07 Hmm, thanks for letting me know. 05:33:42 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.132.119] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:35:19 jmbr [n=jmbr@43.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 05:36:09 seekmit: plus it's off hours for the U.S. (getting late) and places like England and France (still early). 05:37:06 Hmmmm. The topic is out of date. Isn't SBCL 1.0.29 out? 05:37:29 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:38:42 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-73-161.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 05:38:46 gigamonkey: Of course, you are right. Actually I realized that but just thought that lispers (well most programmers in general) are not usually constrained by usual social norms. :) 05:39:32 *manic12* looks at gigamonkey 05:40:34 gigamonkey: Are you in any way related to to that Peter Siebel's classic? 05:41:26 -!- slyrus changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: CFFI 0.10.4, SBCL 1.0.29.1, Hunchentoot & Drakma 1.0.0, usocket 0.4.1, ABCL 0.14, cl-net-snmp 5.19, yason-0.1, trivial-features 0.4, series 2.2.10, CMUCL 19f. 05:42:56 pierre- [n=kpierre@jabber.hsdnetwork.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:27 gigamonkey`: You really should charge for answering that. Could turn into a revenuw stream. 05:44:50 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@80.135.164.58] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:46:03 Hrmm. Hunchentoot is in release. 05:46:20 Gonna have to sit down and learn that one. 05:46:25 In my excitement of first session on #lisp, I didn't realize that there is a list of topics we are meant to stick to! Sorry to everyone if that is the case; I should be going back to work anyway now. Good day everyone! 05:47:01 seekmit: Bye. 05:47:09 there is? 05:47:27 manic12: well, when you're not here, we talk about you. 05:47:40 *hefner* wonders if there's some kind of implementation of clos-style generic functions for C++ 05:48:02 aja: I know, my cat tells me 05:48:20 *hefner* is also shamed to have interrupted that brilliant exchange 05:49:08 Bye guys. 05:49:12 -!- seekmit [n=sonu@117.197.58.64] has left #lisp 05:50:00 -!- meanburrito920_ [n=John@76-217-6-100.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["has been attacked by a grue"] 05:51:39 notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@121.243.167.99] has joined #lisp 05:54:46 manic12: were you looking at me to see if I was going to answer seekmit? I was away for a moment. 05:55:05 -!- gigamonkey` is now known as gigamonkey-yes-t 05:55:09 doh! 05:55:16 -!- gigamonkey-yes-t is now known as yesthatgigamonke 05:55:27 doh again! 05:56:04 i was looking at you to see which one of us was not constrained by social norms 05:56:29 *yesthatgigamonke* stares at manic12 in a social unacceptable way 05:56:43 socially, even. 05:57:10 *aja* thinks gigamonkey should respond with "No, that fucker Seibel stole my identity. Still having trouble with the credit cards." 05:57:10 -!- herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has quit ["leaving"] 05:57:17 ;-) 05:58:00 Never mind, time for bed. Goodninght all. Programmers with toddlers who get up at 6-7am are more bound by social norms than some others. 05:58:26 rockindie [n=sonu@117.197.58.64] has joined #lisp 05:58:34 yesthatgigamonke: Heh. It's my wife's turn at breakfast tomorrow. 05:59:02 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["off"] 05:59:53 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:00:12 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:00:40 mega1 [n=mega@pool-0612f.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 06:01:04 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.132.119] has joined #lisp 06:01:24 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.17.245] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:01:31 now, see, http://www.jot.fm/issues/issue_2005_12/article4/ sounds cool, but (perhaps on account of being built upon proprietary things) the implementation isn't public 06:02:15 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.9.16] has joined #lisp 06:02:56 hefner: Interesting. But my response to things like that is generally "look, if you want Lisp, you know where to find it." 06:03:24 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 06:04:24 hefner: I have similar responses to the weird sorta-lambdas that are proliferating in the C-family, and the almost-but-not-quite C++ templates that showed up as "generics" in C# and Java. 06:04:25 kpierre [n=kpierre@jabber.hsdnetwork.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:06 Every time someone finds a feature in another language that they like, they have to bolt on a bag-on-the-side to a perfectly useful other language. 06:05:41 hello 06:05:53 -!- kpierre [n=kpierre@jabber.hsdnetwork.net] has left #lisp 06:06:10 kpierre [n=kpierre@jabber.hsdnetwork.net] has joined #lisp 06:06:18 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.9.16] has left #lisp 06:06:45 aja: I sympathize with distrust of funky lambdas and "generics" (whatever they are..), but the CLOS style of organizing systems is just so far superior that you'd be mad not to want to take it with you 06:07:06 and since C++ code is bound to be horrible anyway, it isn't like you're going to upset the delicate aesthetics 06:07:51 hefner: Oh, I'm definitely a fan of CLOS. But the OOP system in C++, while evil, is already sufficiently complex. Adding stuff like generic functions sounds like a recipe for seriously unmaintainable code. 06:08:00 What I don't really understand is why does one need lambda notation and closure in most languages when a function wrapped in and object (say, as in Java) can do that stuff. Though it is good as a sweet and short syntactic feature; I guess. 06:08:38 "...wrapped in and object" ==> "... wrapped in an object ..." 06:10:40 aja: C++'s object system itself is a recipe for seriously maintainable code. 06:11:11 hefner: Heh. Well, I've grown used to it. There's nothing to love there, but I can produce something that works if I have to. 06:11:37 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 06:12:47 splittist [n=dmurray@181-87.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:12:50 morning 06:14:18 But providing CLOS as a part of standard C++ would be against its philosophy of "you don't pay for what you don't want" or some thing like that. One would be essentially be implementing a significant feature set of a lisp like language. Better to just use lisp (ECL might be an option) if one wants multiple dispatch, run-time modification etc. 06:14:59 *aja* resists the urge to cite Greenspun 06:15:06 oh, sure. if I want lisp, use lisp, right. 06:17:49 anyway, I don't want CLOS, just generic functions. it's not clear to me how the runtime impact of that is different than having virtual methods. 06:20:28 rockindie: Because you want create an anonymous function, not a function wrapped in an object 06:21:13 pierre-- [n=pierre@89.223.30.168] has joined #lisp 06:21:38 rockindie: closures are a natural consequence of first class functions provided your scoping rules are not brain damaged. emulating the fundamental notion of a function as a hack on top of objects is obviously perverse, but the specifics depend on whether you're talking about in abstract, or a specific language (and retrofitted or not), and its philosophy and implementation model . 06:21:45 -!- asksol_ [n=ask@084202248064.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Client Quit] 06:22:42 for instance, the case for closures isn't clear outside of GCed languages (which makes me terribly suspicious of things going on in C++ land and elsewhere, which I do not follow) 06:25:57 tcr: But isn't it this the same problem that one faces when re-implementing an imperative program in a functional language; that is, you have to solve the problem from scratch with a new paradigm (in this case the one provided by, say, Java) and when one does that can you not replace most uses of lambda and closures with return statement that returns an instance of an anonymous class from with in a function or something like that. 06:26:00 perverse, in the sense of building a carriage by taking the engine out of your volkswagen and rigging horses to it. 06:27:30 (that's really a very poor analogy if you're going to pick it apart, but whatever) 06:31:37 rockindie: for what it's worth, I don't think your starting position here was very clear. I read your statement as an attack against the whole idea of lambda functions, not against the specific situation of retrofitting them into existing languages. 06:32:23 hefner: I agree about the beauty of having functions as a first class construct; in fact I prefer it over traditional OO. All I wanted to say (and understand) was that isn't it more of a syntactic problem rather than something more fundamental as far as Java, C++ etc are concerned? An object is just a function or a group of some functions with an option to provide some shared state among those (related) functions; after all. 06:34:50 except java object isn't first class 06:34:57 -!- sunwukong [n=vukung@ortros.den.rcast.u-tokyo.ac.jp] has quit ["bye"] 06:35:00 nor class 06:35:43 Or, an object is a way of reifying a location in class-inheritance-space to indicate which method of a generic function to run. 06:35:50 but yes distintion tends to blur a bit in language like ruby 06:37:52 rockindie: I think a function is just another object. In fact, many Common Lisp implementations provide you a way to create clos objects which are funcallable 06:37:54 rockindie: I'll claim that yes, it is fundamental, because it getting it right involves the scope of definitions and the lifetime of variables and objects, and the compiler needs to deal with it. You can't whip up a few macros or a simple source preprocessor and add full CL/scheme-style lambdas to C++ (or, I suspect, Java) 06:39:03 brnhck [n=hrk@acurwa001112.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:39:04 although it sounds a lot more feasible to do it with some preprocessing in java (and again, I don't follow Java, but expect that everything that can been done with java probably has been, twice) 06:41:42 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 06:44:10 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-73-161.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:46:01 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:46:50 tcr: True. But you can also think of every Java object as a (group of) function and in C++ there is even a stronger possibility of meta-functions (provided by Boost). I am just playing Devil's advocate because I really want to know if anything very fundamental is being lost by not having lambda/closures; It is not clear to me yet. 06:47:35 rockindie: Such functionalities are all about convenience. You can also implement your own stack in assembler. 06:47:48 talking about closures in C++ is a red herring anyway 06:48:22 rockindie: And the utitlity of some functionality is often "not clear" to someone who is not used to having it, and "a necessity" for the others. 06:50:00 rockindie: You can go alot further with your thinking. You don't need special variables in Lisp because you can simulate them by assigning to a local variable, capturing exceptions and restore the old value later. 06:50:30 rockindie: No programming language *really* needs modules or name spaces. You can do that by naming conventions. 06:51:24 Joreji [n=user@45-072.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 06:51:32 rockindie: And who needs complex arithmetic. You can simulate that by representing complexes as structures. 06:52:43 Drakeson` [n=user@69-196-139-205.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 06:52:45 Hell, Scheme shows that you don't need an object system at all. You can just use dispatch functions instead. 06:53:10 there are problems that are more easily solved with some specific programming paradigm (be that functional, oo, state machines) 06:54:06 and because of this, most languages tend to try to provide with tools to do each 06:55:09 i don't see this as a technical property of a programming language 06:55:22 hefner: You may be right, it is just that I'm unable to convince myself rather than any one else. I've recently come back to Java and with its multitude of options of Nested, local, anonymous and inner classes; I don't think there is anything fundamental lacking in it compared to Lisp(s). In fact, one can probably argue that the successful implementation of ABCL demonstrates that all the fundamental and equivalent constructs are there but then I'm far from 06:55:23 an expert in any of these languages. What I like to think is along these lines when programming in Java: 1) Map the lisp module/file to a Java class (not Java file or package!). 2) The global variables/parameters (defparam, defvar, setq etc) map to the instance variables in the Java class. 3) Map the functions of the lisp modules to the methods of Java object. 4) Map the inner function of lisp module (flet, label etc) to the the appropriated nested class co 06:55:23 nstruct (Java provides many types of nested classes). 5) Keep on doing so recursively. 06:55:37 beach: the difference is in "you can" and "it's natural to do this way" 06:56:01 guaqua: I avoid using the word "natural" when it comes to programming. 06:56:09 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-125-18.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 06:56:36 guaqua: Either humans are part of nature and all we do is natural. Or else we aren't and nothing is. 06:56:57 beach: is idiomatic better, or do you just avoid thinking of the natural use cases of programming languages altogether? 06:57:10 guaqua: idiomatic is better. 06:57:29 rockindie: Turing-completeness is a tired and uncompelling defense. 06:57:30 rockindie: isn't that what (one of) jnil/linj does semi-automatically? 06:57:31 guaqua: or faster to write, easier to understand, shorter, etc. 06:57:40 then replace every notion of natural with idiomatic (or that one) 06:57:44 alphone [i=be89283b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-78cb488f2d89e784] has joined #lisp 06:57:56 hello 06:58:07 hello alphone 06:58:35 Oopd. Posted before finishing... And as posted above, I find that I have almost most of the facilities of a functional languages (Macros, s-expressions and scheme like continuations are some things which I think are really fundamentally, or almost so, different in lisps and actually makes them superior in some respects). 06:58:39 alphone: new here? 06:58:43 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:58:52 yes i'm new 06:59:02 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 06:59:03 i heard that with lisp it is posible do some basic calculus 06:59:03 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-37.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:09 -!- Orest is now known as Orest^bnc 06:59:47 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:59:55 i am curious about that 07:00:08 alphone: What kind of calculus? 07:00:29 for now just limit of functions 07:00:33 alphone: You can program things like symbolic derivation and integration in any language. It is just more convenient in Lisp. 07:00:53 alphone: But then, Lisp is more convenient than other languages for most programming tasks. 07:01:09 *beach* takes off for work. 07:01:11 alphone: I'd suggest matlab/octave or mathematica 07:01:30 alphone: Those are software tools specifically targeting general mathematics. 07:01:44 aja: but i want to learn lisp :) 07:01:58 -!- rockindie [n=sonu@117.197.58.64] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:02:01 i know about those programs 07:02:09 brnhck_ [n=hrk@acurwa001112.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:02:14 alphone: Then expressing an interest in lisp, rather than in Calculus would be a good strategy for getting advice. 07:02:18 minion: tell alphone about pcl 07:02:18 alphone: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 07:02:46 minion: tell alphone about gentle 07:02:46 alphone: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 07:02:52 -!- Joreji [n=user@45-072.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:03:07 what was that old mathematics "suite" written in common lisp? 07:03:19 *guaqua* has the dumb 07:03:22 maxima 07:03:23 maxima? 07:03:27 ok i will try it 07:03:46 does anyone use maxima? :) 07:03:50 me 07:04:01 (although I use Maple more often) 07:04:57 ASau [n=user@host101-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:05:18 actually, many non-lispers use maxima. it is actively maintained 07:05:37 -!- brnhck [n=hrk@acurwa001112.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:05:52 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:07:10 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:47 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-3-163.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:07:49 frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@wafer.futurs.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 07:08:01 good morning 07:08:28 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:10:16 Joreji [n=user@45-072.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:10:23 -!- Drakeson [n=user@206-248-174-113.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:12:32 sergeylilo [n=power@host78.net137-20.omkc.ru] has joined #lisp 07:13:02 nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:13:03 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:14:17 Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:11 morning 07:15:11 nikodemus, memo from pkhuong: packed complexes get me a 16% speed-up compared to double floats mandelbench on .28.34... But double floats with the same patch get a 35% speed-up (: 07:15:32 rockindie [n=sonu@117.197.58.64] has joined #lisp 07:16:41 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:16:45 -!- pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 07:17:12 adityo [n=adityo@122.169.52.91] has joined #lisp 07:17:25 minion: memo for pkhuong: those are highly cool numbers, especially since that means double floats will match the g++ performance 07:17:25 Remembered. I'll tell pkhuong when he/she/it next speaks. 07:19:55 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:20:20 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit ["*yawn*"] 07:20:43 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:23:54 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@43.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:27:04 -!- alphone [i=be89283b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-78cb488f2d89e784] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 07:32:08 dys`` [n=andreas@p5B317408.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:37:12 -!- brnhck_ [n=hrk@acurwa001112.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [] 07:37:26 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 07:37:49 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-2-221.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:38:25 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:39:52 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-22-97.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:44:42 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:45:03 fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has joined #lisp 07:45:33 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.163.100.126] has joined #lisp 07:49:34 -!- dys` [n=andreas@p5B315853.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:49:48 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.169.52.91] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:50:00 adityo [n=adityo@122.169.52.91] has joined #lisp 07:52:11 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:53:19 seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has joined #lisp 07:55:55 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:56:11 kanmahotell [i=kanmahot@178-213-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 07:57:07 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:58:00 athlon pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81406 08:00:02 hello. 08:03:12 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-2-221.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit ["..."] 08:03:33 when i generate a class-instance, i would like to generate a fast instance-specific function (coord transformation). this function will be called very often, so i thing a defgeneric is not apropriate, right? 08:03:50 s/thing/think 08:04:08 |dvl| [n=didier@bob75-9-88-181-0-232.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:04 -!- |dvl| [n=didier@bob75-9-88-181-0-232.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:05:32 i thought of putting a closure into a slot, but i do not have a good feeling about that. how would you do this? 08:12:09 elias` [n=me@host86-141-109-194.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:12:24 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 08:14:04 First, write the normal method dispatch way, and time it 08:14:59 The only way to call a closure would be to 1) create a lambda and store it on the object, meaning you'd have to pull a slot to reference the lambda anyway, which is stupid 08:15:44 2) Create another method with a eq test in the parameters for tha tparticular instance. This would grow to be quite a huge number of functions, an dwill probably bog down 08:15:56 Just use the normal method dispatch, passing in your object 08:16:02 trebor_dki: and if you're calling it repeatedly, smart caching (provided by the CLOS implementation) will help alot. (I speculate...) 08:16:33 a transformation, you say? consider using data rather than code. 08:17:20 also you might want to use some (declare..) hints to help along the optimization, though ymmv 08:17:25 Phoodus: thank you (in the meantime i was thinking about a defgeneric to return a closure, in order to call that one repeatedly) 08:17:44 what's held in the closure anyway? 08:18:45 Phoodus: i thought of it having all the needed data for transformation, so that it would not use the slots in order to be faster. 08:18:58 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181130081.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:19:16 but i may be thinking wrong (slots and defgenerics to be slow) 08:20:16 hefner: what do you mean by "using data rather than code"? 08:21:11 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:22:26 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:22:29 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 08:22:32 you might represent a transformation as a matrix, for instance, and then you have some guarantees about what kind of transformation it is (which is often useful), whereas passing coordinates through a closure as a black box, you have to trust that the function preserves the properties you're interested in 08:24:04 I wonder how fast using a destructuring bind would be on a single slot's value vs other options 08:24:17 In any case, get it working first using the _simplest_ method possible, so you can record timings before you fiddle with it more 08:24:17 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 08:24:33 kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:25:26 naunsins [i=charles_@120.138.100.98] has joined #lisp 08:25:45 hefner: you are right. besides transformation, i have to check, if input and output match several criterions, that is the reason why i think/thought to need a function. 08:25:54 -!- kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:27:12 trebor_dki: for CLOS slot access speed under SBCL, see http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Slot-access.html#Slot-access 08:28:54 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 08:29:20 elderk [n=zk@122-57-254-205.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:29:29 -!- elderk [n=zk@122-57-254-205.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:29:37 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:29:58 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:31:07 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:31:34 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:32:14 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:29 thanks, i will do it the defmethod way first, but put a note on it. 08:34:47 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 08:36:41 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-168-22.51-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 08:36:55 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:37:50 *nikodemus* swears at darwin's tar 08:38:27 under leopard there appears to be no way to tell it not to store xattrs as auxcilliary files 08:40:11 hmm, i think there was 08:40:34 an environment variable or something 08:43:53 might be COPY_EXTENDED_ATTRIBUTES_DISABLE 08:44:57 might be outdated, though 08:45:09 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.169.52.91] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:45:26 adityo [n=adityo@122.169.52.91] has joined #lisp 08:47:03 might be COPYFILE_DISABLE=true also 08:47:09 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:47:46 I'm getting errors about "can't load .core for different runtime" from maxima all of a sudden :| 08:48:30 Ralith: have you updated sbcl ? 08:48:34 yup 08:49:06 don't 08:49:20 bit late 08:49:22 compile a different sbcl for your development 08:49:47 but don't touch the one used for maxima 08:50:31 or, if speed is not essential, you could compile maxima with clisp 08:53:31 oh, good, updating maxima fixed it 08:54:08 -!- naunsins [i=charles_@120.138.100.98] has left #lisp 08:54:30 doxtor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-22-139.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:15 -!- hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [] 08:57:12 jdz: neither worked for me 08:58:49 drafael [n=tapio@118.90.131.191] has joined #lisp 08:59:09 nikodemus: hmm, works for me... (the COPYFILE_DISABLE=true one on leopard) 08:59:09 -!- drafael [n=tapio@118.90.131.191] has quit [Client Quit] 08:59:16 oddness 08:59:32 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-76.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 08:59:33 oh well, copying stuff over to linux for third round of packing now... 09:02:31 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 09:04:42 just don't copy it with tar ;-) 09:05:44 heh 09:05:45 poor nikodemus 09:05:53 mind you, serves him right for using a mac 09:06:01 "it just works", right? 09:06:44 "it just works, if you do only what Steve Jobs is doing with his mac" 09:07:11 if it's a question between wresting with hardware configuration or software problems like this one... i prefer the latter 09:07:36 though that said, i've never had any real problems with my ubuntu laptop either 09:08:59 by any chance, does someone use sbcl or ccl on opensolaris/solaris here? 09:09:54 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-131-191.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:10:33 -!- dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:13:30 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["brb"] 09:14:00 guaqua: well, i've used sbcl on solaris/sparc. and i still use it from time to time. 09:14:17 Is there any one here who has recently used climacs or McClim some serious work? 09:14:19 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 09:14:46 drwhen [n=doctor@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:15:03 serious work? from #lisp? HAHAHAHAHH! ;) 09:15:40 "... MclCim som ..." ==> "McClim for some ..." 09:15:43 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:16:23 "Serious" as in for more than 10 minutes in a day, on average. :) 09:16:54 -!- yoonkn [n=yoonkn@210.108.170.71] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:17:12 ..averaged across their entire life? 09:17:50 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 09:18:23 he did say recently 09:18:23 seejay_ [n=seejay@202.69.200.5] has joined #lisp 09:18:34 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.169.52.91] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:18:38 so he did.. 09:18:43 on the positive side, not having to use the web-upload-hell-on-wheels anymore is a bonus 09:18:46 adityo [n=adityo@122.169.52.91] has joined #lisp 09:19:00 rockindie: do you have a question about it? 09:19:30 -!- seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:19:40 -!- seejay_ is now known as seejay 09:19:40 Taggnostr2 [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 09:20:10 -!- seejay is now known as Guest54557 09:20:45 -!- Guest54557 is now known as seejay 09:22:01 hypno: does threading work? 09:22:14 -!- pierre- [n=kpierre@jabber.hsdnetwork.net] has left #lisp 09:22:15 -!- sergeylilo [n=power@host78.net137-20.omkc.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:22:35 not on sparc, should work on x86 09:24:52 asksol_ [n=ask@084202248064.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 09:24:53 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [] 09:26:15 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp011.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 09:26:19 hefner: I tried them some time ago and though I didn't find them up to the mark; I find the idea (of Emacs in CL and CLIM itself) quite exciting. I just wanted to know if lispers here really care about them at all and if there is any hope for them in future. Also, why there is little talk of CLIM in lisp community, in general. 09:27:56 there's a lot of anti-GUI sentiment in a lot of outspoken lispers (cue flamewar) 09:28:14 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-167-181.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:28:19 hello 09:28:26 guaqua: as nikodemus said, nope. for solaris/sparc, i think scl (or perhaps ecl) is your only option if you need threads. for x86 there are many alternatives. :) 09:28:47 Found a blog comment trashing me and projects I contribute to. Whoo hoo. I must be doing something right. Fame! 09:29:07 that.. awful 09:29:15 luis: congrats ;) 09:29:20 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:29:22 luis: only a comment? 09:29:37 gotta start somewhere! 09:29:38 just wait until you have actual blogs telling you you're an idiot 09:29:52 next step: CNN investigating scandals revolving around your project! 09:29:59 hypno, nikodemus: i'm on x86. just trying to look for options. and seeing if solaris is one of them :) 09:30:01 rockindie: apparently, there's far more people who think things are good ideas in theory (or are willing to run, say, McCLIM for ten minutes and complain about it) then there are people willing to work to improve things. 09:31:27 mind you, Athas made some excellent improvements to climacs. Dunno when rockindie tried it last, but if it was years ago, then things have changed 09:31:42 probably not enough to get a feeling in 10 minutes, mind you 09:32:15 rockindie: Robert Strandh and I recently had an article published in a journal about a mcclim application we work on 09:32:22 dunno if that counts as "serious" 09:36:42 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [Success] 09:36:43 (the application basically works, too) 09:37:42 hefner: True. But then benefits of popularity and the testing and motivation that it brings for the developers shouldn't be ignored either. Both personally and generally speaking, any meaningful contribution to McClim/climacs would require a certain level of expertise in the specification and the code base itself besides the language, which not many possess. Also it makes sense to ask the experts if they have noticed any major flaws in the design itself re 09:37:42 cently before jumping into helping with the implementation. 09:37:58 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 09:38:03 luis: link? 09:38:45 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-168-22.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 09:38:47 http://www.esden.net/blog/2007/12/31/cl-opengl-thomas-mac-os-x-bindings-with-native-glutframework/#comment-63609 09:39:47 matley- [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 09:39:51 -!- matley- [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:39:56 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:40:03 frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 09:41:11 xof: I tried it about half a year ago. Climacs actually seemed to work rather well; which made me even more curious as to why people more knowledgeable than me are not talking about it or using it. Why there is so much emphasis on binding to other toolkits or custom GUI toolkits, even from commercial vendors, rather than emphasis on McClim. 09:41:14 I suppose the guy has a point. The multiple repositories the floated around that time were a pain. 09:42:38 xof: Could you please provide the link to the article and to the application if it is in public domain? Thanks. 09:42:41 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:43:36 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:22 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:44:22 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A2156.versanet.de] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:44:22 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:44:22 -!- erk [n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:44:22 -!- rumbleca [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:44:22 -!- glogic [n=glogic@5ess.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:44:22 -!- p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:44:22 -!- guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:44:24 glogic_ [n=glogic@5ess.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:25 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 09:44:30 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 09:44:31 guaqua [i=gua@212.226.140.97] has joined #lisp 09:44:34 erk [n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 09:44:35 rumbleca [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 09:48:35 dys``` [n=andreas@p5B313C01.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:49:39 When I try to install someone's package with asdf-install and "No key found for key" error occurs, this means the author didn't upload his gpg public key? 09:49:39 I am trying to make my package downloadable with asdf-install. 09:50:19 or you don't have it signed 09:50:46 stassats`: What do you mean? > you don't have it signed 09:50:55 ejs2 [n=eugen@63.251.108.100] has joined #lisp 09:51:08 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp011.studby.uio.no] has quit [Client Quit] 09:51:09 web of trust, key signing, etc 09:51:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_signing 09:52:28 rockindie: a chief problem is that the abstractions (McCLIM etc) are incomplete, so if you want to do clever things, you often have to hack just as much on the abstractions, as on your actual problem. 09:52:50 stassats`: For example, when I try to install hunchentoot with asdf-install, I need the Edi's public gpg key, right? And that is his matter, not mine, correct? 09:53:19 benny [n=benny@87.122.33.86] has joined #lisp 09:53:21 (if I don't skip gpg check.) 09:53:48 you need to meet edi (or through web of trust), sign his key 09:54:14 nikodemus: 09:54:14 - cvs co -p -r $(RELEASE_TAG) sbcl/NEWS > NEWS+# cvs co -p -r $(RELEASE_TAG) sbcl/NEWS > NEWS??? 09:54:48 stassats`: something like I first must accept Edi's public key? 09:54:56 yes 09:54:56 tomoyuki28jp: yes and you need to fetch it yourself (or configure gpg to magically look for it -- dunno how or if that's possible) 09:55:28 stassats`: nikodemus: Oh, I see. 09:55:43 mega1: oops, that wasn't ment to go in. the released NEWS file missed the "changes from SBCL X to SBCL Y" line which confuses the NEWS parser 09:55:49 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087A43A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:59 Athas: Do you mean the (implementation) of abstractions in McCLIM or that CLIM specification itself is not sufficiently detailed? I think you mean the former; just want to clear. 09:56:30 nikodemus: did you do the release step in the right order? 09:56:46 that is, tagging after it seems to work? ;-) 09:57:23 People generally use the gpg keys to make their package downloadable with asdf-install? (Should I do that?) 09:57:37 mega1: it's tagged, etc -- but the number of minor snafus i was able to generate is pretty astounding 09:57:53 *hefner* suspects mcclim has drifted into a dead zone where it has outgrown the specification save for the lack of developer initiative and manpower to cast it aside 09:58:02 I am trying to make my package downloadable with asdf-install. 09:58:21 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.137.170] has joined #lisp 09:58:25 hefner: yep, that's a big problem. And a project in that state means people can't just jump in and help out 09:58:38 the CVS is open, etc, and AFAIK the website and release files should now be in order 09:58:47 because there are architectural overhauls beyond simply patches required 09:58:58 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:59:12 Phoodus: I assure you there is plenty of room for simple patches to mcclim. 09:59:12 I mean if you actually try installing, parse NEWS before tagging then some of these snafus are avoidable says someone who cannot bump version.lisp-expr reliably. 09:59:17 rockindie: the application is gsharp. You can get a preprint of the article from http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/papers/ 09:59:27 (fair warning: the article is in French) 10:00:12 Athas: Also, would you advise a newcomer to to try McCLIM or use foreign bindings to other popular toolkits; GTK, WxWidget, Qt, may be even clx etc. Other lispers are also welcome to share their advice/opinion. 10:00:22 mega1: yes, i did get the order wrong in some point, i think. i also somehow had SUPPORT left in the tree from which i did the release, hence that issue 10:00:47 simple patches: eliminate compile-time and load-time warnings on sbcl; check backend generic functions with one function and one method per backend (rather than one function total and one method per backend) 10:00:48 So where can I find out Edi's gpg public key? I took a look at his website, but I couldn't find one. 10:00:55 nikodemus: wouldn't it be possible to make releases from the buildbot? 10:01:08 rockindie: i tried mcclim and liked it, it's not perfect, but it works 10:01:22 less simple patches: improve the widgets 10:01:36 add package locks and fix the abstraction leakages that that reveals 10:01:45 michaelw: yes and no. it's not set up for that, and since the buildbot uses untrusted hosts which are sporadically available, i'm not sure it's really a good idea 10:01:52 meta: start maintaining a bug tracker with all of these tasks 10:01:59 rockindie: i think it depends on what you want to do. are you doing a commercial application with users expecting conventional gui-design, like for the mac or windows? if you are just playing, why does it matter? 10:02:09 Xof: Thanks. I've read about this application before but never came around to testing and building it. I'll give it a try now. 10:02:20 Xof: i would suggest launchpad -- it is actually pretty nice 10:02:24 nikodemus: ah, ok. I thought the machines were dedicated 10:02:51 nikodemus: not an option, unless you can tell me how to get comments and other bug activity over rss 10:02:51 cirquitz [n=cirquitz@203.199.114.33] has joined #lisp 10:02:59 randomguy [n=randomgu@199.80-202-137.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:03:06 the rss feed that I have seems singularly useless 10:03:09 *splittist* discovers the French for lute is luth 10:03:14 hm, email activity works fine 10:03:22 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.132.119] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:03:22 never checked the rss 10:03:40 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-67.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:03:55 but the next time i do the release i'm going to rewrite the release-checklist.txt into something even i can follow... 10:04:03 -!- randomguy [n=randomgu@199.80-202-137.nextgentel.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:04:41 -!- kanmahotell [i=kanmahot@178-213-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [] 10:04:43 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.122.124] has joined #lisp 10:04:56 rockindie: both. The CLIM spec is vague and occasionally inconsistent, and McCLIM has bugs. 10:05:38 CLIM is also pretty bare in itself, and you need to perform unspeakable incantations if you want to do something out of the ordinary (though note that "ordinary" in CLIM is still pretty flexible). 10:05:38 Invalid index 0: must be between 0 and -1. 10:05:44 kanmahotell [i=kanmahot@178-213-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:18 what kind of unspeakable incantations you use? the fewer of the wonky addled abstractions you use, the more clear your code becomes. 10:06:31 oh, here's a simple thing to do: rewrite the command parser stuff so that command parsers are closures rather than individually microcompiled functions with crazy names 10:06:44 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.169.52.91] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:06:46 -!- dys`` [n=andreas@p5B317408.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:06:54 hah, yeah. that's pretty disgusting. 10:06:57 adityo [n=adityo@122.169.52.91] has joined #lisp 10:07:25 an added bonus would be to expose the argument information 10:10:40 why mcclim's source tree is so strange? with lots of empty directories 10:11:31 hypno: Not commercial per se. But developing rough prototype which may eventually be implemented in other languages. The audience is fairly technical so the native look and such stuff doesn't really matter. On your second point, I beg to differ. I don't think there is anything like *just playing around*. If more experienced people have reasonable doubts and I'm not able to form a clear independent opinion myself, I'd rather not use it, at least for the tim 10:11:32 e being. 10:11:56 stassats`: I'd be inclined to blame a Mac filesystem accident 10:12:01 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@181-87.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:12:16 rockindie: you can find experienced people with reasonable doubts about _anything_. Only you know your needs best 10:12:22 so, another project: "clean source tree" 10:12:25 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:13:00 yeah, but this is CVS; you can't actually do that 10:13:02 *hefner* now wonders if he deleted those directories locally a long time ago 10:13:24 ok, another one: "abandon CVS" 10:13:25 doesn't everyone use cvs up -dP? 10:13:59 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.251.181] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:14:10 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 10:14:52 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-167-181.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has left #lisp 10:15:47 hmm. you can't just dip into the cvsroot and rm -rf them? 10:15:51 Xof: I agree. I would eventually decide after my own analysis but I didn't find relevant Google searches quite informative so I just wanted to have some informed opinions here. 10:16:03 -!- seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:16:37 Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has joined #lisp 10:17:07 rockindie: for me it's a case of pragmatics. is it easier to get a rock-solid gui up and running with FFI or with Mcclim? it was years ago i used clim and it wasnt up to the task back then at least. 10:17:08 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:17:15 -!- ausente is now known as dalton 10:17:21 *hefner* is convinced that no matter how one improves mcclim, people will find excuses not to use it 10:18:03 hefner: some better-signposted tutorial-like material would help there. (Not cure, but help) 10:20:09 there we go, another task 10:22:34 i put a query to launchpad about getting better feeds, but since i see no configuration items that look promising, i think the fastest solution for a better sbcl bugs feed is an email->rss gateway 10:22:37 rockindie: then you also want to be able to plan ahead. i can certainly sympathize with the people who rather interface to sdl or gtk or java or whatever, because they are basically guaranteed improvements and platform independce and further development. there is a lot to build on out there, and it's smart to use it. (not that i think the gui market is a good place for a lisp programmer. focus on building systems instead: find other paths to success and dont co 10:22:48 unfortunately, i'm not up to hacking one up just now 10:23:07 hefner: it is weird that CLIM exposes a million ways to construct output records and selection-menus, yet has no way for an application to control basic look-and-feel like what a possibilities-menu should look like. 10:23:32 The CLIM spec has a very weird weighting of flexibility. It's like they just got bored near the end. 10:24:53 I also think the whole space-requirements stuff is really unintuitive and way too low-level. 10:24:53 Athas: from hearing Scott McKay talk about it, it was more like "hm, don't know how to do this yet. Oh well." 10:25:20 Xof: oh yes, I'm not really blaming the CLIM designers, but it's hard to know when to extend McCLIM or when to stick to the spec. 10:25:31 Especially when there is no documentation apart from said spec. 10:25:53 there's a circularity to break: we only know what to do when we have actual applications, but having actual applications means having users 10:27:02 randomguy [n=randomgu@199.80-202-137.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:27:04 and also doing the work to build the actual applications, of coruse 10:27:18 and all the while answering questions on IRC as to whether it's even worthwhile :-/ 10:27:19 would be it be sensible to make up a mcclim spec, basically just stripping everything from the clim spec that is either not understood, not implemented properly, or flaky, etc? 10:27:29 Well, there is Climacs. 10:27:32 nikodemus: beach certainly wants to do that 10:27:56 Athas: yes, there is, and gsharp. Problem with climacs is that it's competing in a very crowded space; with gsharp it's kind of... minority interest 10:28:14 -!- randomguy [n=randomgu@199.80-202-137.nextgentel.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:28:29 and neither is too shy about dipping into internals, right? 10:28:39 no, they're both fairly clean by now, I think 10:28:44 oh, ok 10:28:52 we have moved most of the dipping into mcclim extensions 10:29:01 (bezier curve drawing, Drei, ESA) 10:29:05 slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-142-77.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 10:29:27 *hefner* generally overlooks the vast amount of stuff in mcclim 10:30:57 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:31:35 *stassats`* needs to make his clim-chess more usable 10:32:00 Beirc is probably the best candidate for general distribution. 10:32:18 -!- cirquitz [n=cirquitz@203.199.114.33] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:34:27 hypno: Thanks. That is useful to know. I have a feeling that you are more in favour of FFI bindings to low level but stable API's and then building your own lispy abstractions on top of them. To be frank, I am actually inclined that way too (at the moment). Part of the reason of my extra caution and fear for very high level abstractions is that most of them turn out to be leaky, inconsistent or incomplete in the end. In my relatively short programming exper 10:34:27 ience I've found very few to be really important and useful. S-expressions, Pattern matching (Haskell style), Lisp Macro and functional programming are the only one I'm able to think right now. OK, I'm rambling now. 10:35:53 McCLIM is Lisp all the way through, so it doesn't leak any C-isms. 10:36:06 That there is no C anywhere is actually sort of neat. 10:37:55 *hefner* doesn't really like most of CLIM's higher level abstractions, isn't convinced you can build complex applications without subverting them 10:39:15 mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068087112.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 10:40:03 The thing is when one wastes so much time learning useless layers of abstractions (yes, I'm talking about JEE) only to find later that real proficiency lies in understanding all the details up to the very low level then one does tend to become over cautious about abstractions . All those Java Faces, Struts, Spring, Seam when only Servlets would have been sufficient .... OK, Java is off my chest now, no more talking about it :) 10:42:06 rockindie: I follow your reasoning. Yet to work efficiently, the abstractions will get you very very far. Only in cases where the abstraction really doesn't work (and with a good abstraction, that should be minimal) should you need tho on the bare metal deal. The net effect is that using the abstractions will make your application faster to build and easier to extend, modify and reuse 10:42:09 *hefner* would like to write another little mcclim app, but has learned helplessness with respect to waiting for fixes to major vendor-provided components of his operating system (namely, the crashy xorg of death) that impede hacking 10:42:47 you need the tty backend :-) 10:43:16 (and to think I used to rebuild xfree, gdk/gtk, and the rest of the mess from source regularly. what a sad remnant of a man Debian has reduced me to) 10:43:56 ah, but I specifically need the graphics. if I wanted to play in a terminal, I'd just spit ansi codes at it. 10:44:12 (and do, come to think of it) 10:44:34 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-0-17.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:45:29 hey, maybe X won't crash if I use Gtkairo. That'd be different. 10:45:38 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:46:51 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:47:07 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 10:47:13 html+ajax backend? didn't xof have a partial one? 10:47:16 yes 10:47:24 that would be a very nice thing to have proplery 10:47:32 I don't have any of the interactive bits, only drawing 10:47:33 hefner: terrible waste of electricity 10:47:34 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:35 cirquitz [n=cirquitz@203.199.114.33] has joined #lisp 10:47:40 (recompiling stuff all the time) 10:48:00 there's a student here who is looking at doing more (but he's a musicologist, so to say that this isn't part of his thesis work is putting it mildly) 10:48:17 which reminds me, i wanted to see if i could get nice IR1 & IR2 representation using the whatever-the-name-was-browser-as-inspector-thing from ELS 10:51:59 Xof: you'd presumably have to use something like COMET/HTTP push 10:52:15 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 10:53:02 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.137.170] has quit ["leaving"] 10:54:10 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-73-161.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:55:28 rsynnott: a waste of time and electricity, but it had the upside that after you spent ten hours tracking down all pieces of the new KDE 1.0 or Gnome 1.2 release, it was actually fun to play with and explore for a few hours, before you turned it all off and went back to something useful 10:56:32 nikodemus: yeah, I showed that paper to the student in question 10:59:27 doing something like that for mcclim isn't rocket science, it just takes time 11:00:48 -!- mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068087112.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:00:49 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:02:31 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:03:24 btw, i recently stumbled upon http://thejit.org/home/ which does graphics (graphs really) and uses JSON for data interchange 11:04:24 HG` [n=wells@xdslhe157.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:06:07 graphs being mostly trees 11:06:28 yeah, it's an interesting lib 11:07:19 *michaelw* wonders if it's noticable that DUIM is a "second system" 11:08:23 more like third... 11:08:33 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.163.100.126] has quit ["New router"] 11:08:57 I'd have guessed fourth, but I'm not sure it's fair to separate the original lispm window system from dynamic windows (which is, I think, still fairly intertwined with it) 11:09:23 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:11:30 michaelw: apparently the DUIM team not only got a fourth go but also spent significant time making the windows backend as native as possible 11:13:24 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:13:26 hyperbor1ean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 11:13:28 cracki [n=cracki@46-203.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:13:50 -!- hypno [n=hypno@195.43.248.100] has quit ["leaving"] 11:14:45 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:15:35 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 11:16:28 -!- rockindie [n=sonu@117.197.58.64] has left #lisp 11:20:04 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 11:20:16 Xof: okay, but is this something that for example McCLIM (or any other lispy UI substrate, really) can directly capitalize on (or get inspiration from)? 11:24:04 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:25:07 sure 11:25:09 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:25:24 because you need the right protocols in your substrate to be able to do that 11:25:29 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-129-25.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:25:40 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:26:25 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:27:36 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 11:27:42 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 11:29:03 -!- Taggnostr2 [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:29:03 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:29:03 -!- Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:29:03 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:29:03 -!- Pavitra [n=benjamin@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:29:03 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 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[n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 11:55:23 Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:23 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 11:55:23 Pavitra [n=benjamin@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:23 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:55:23 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 11:55:23 exu0 [n=u@dslb-084-056-156-213.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:23 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 11:55:23 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:23 kei [n=gueorgui@gmt.su] has joined #lisp 11:55:23 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 11:55:23 joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has joined #lisp 11:55:23 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 11:55:40 -!- Taggnostr2 [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 11:56:05 V-ille2 [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe43fb00-66.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 11:56:41 froydnj: thanks. since signed a <= x <=b is equivalent to unsigned x-a <= b-a (assuming a<=b), we might be also be able to compile range checks in general better 11:56:55 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:57:15 but i haven't yet though about how to get python to recognized that -- or checked if we already have some smarts there 11:57:20 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit ["leaving"] 11:57:33 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 11:57:38 Hi all, is there any convention/agreement to in which package macroexpand-all should be? 11:58:15 timor [n=martin@w4389.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 11:58:17 Or should I just pick EXT or whatever I like for abcl? 11:58:26 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 11:58:30 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 11:59:03 no conventions, really. anything but CL :) 11:59:24 <_3b> there aren't even conventions on which other packages exist from what i've seen 11:59:59 nikodemus: I have a patch for that, actually (just for doing type checks of (INTEGER A B), not in general) 12:00:00 nikodemus: somehow I feel also that anything but LISP 12:01:18 nikodemus: I wanted to get it committed in the 1.0.29 cycle 12:02:11 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-131-191.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:02:26 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:05 froydnj: that would be great, especially since we don't weaken integer types as much anymore 12:05:10 I mean, LISP is a cltl2-transition package, right? So I don't think macroexpand-all would belong there. 12:05:53 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 12:05:58 V-ille2: depends -- i think some implementations have it just as a nickname for CL 12:06:26 Sure, but still, macroexpand-all doesn't belong there. 12:07:08 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E61D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:15 yeah, not in CL. i think it's really an aesthetic choise more than anything 12:10:16 nikodemus: i've lately noticed you use word "choise" instead of "choice" quite consistently... 12:11:18 not that i'm working for grammar police or anything 12:12:14 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 12:12:32 whoops, thanks 12:13:56 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-112.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:14:51 jao [n=jao@55.Red-83-39-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:36 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:16:30 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 12:20:15 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:20:22 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:21:18 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.169.52.91] has quit ["leaving"] 12:21:19 what would be the performance penalty for using defmethod instead of defun for every function? 12:22:09 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:23:40 timor: one extra redirection, I think 12:23:57 depends on what has been cached in the implementation 12:24:12 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@134.184.43.85] has joined #lisp 12:24:18 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:26:39 -!- tseug [n=tseug3@cpe-70-112-21-137.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:27:36 cracki [n=cracki@46-203.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:27:41 -!- slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-142-77.3g.claro.net.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:28:28 slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-142-77.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 12:29:04 -!- Joreji [n=user@45-072.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:30:19 dv_ [n=dv@83.64.248.68] has joined #lisp 12:35:46 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:36:10 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E45D3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:39:53 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-0-17.dip.osnanet.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 12:40:45 timor: well, it depends. If you wrote (defun f (x) (check-type x some-class) ...) instead of (defmethod f ((x some-class)) ...)) I'd bet there's no difference, or defmethod is faster. 12:44:51 Good afternoon! 12:44:56 hi spiaggia 12:45:02 'llo 12:46:06 Taggnostr2 [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 12:46:24 grouzen [n=grouzen@brt.net.ua] has joined #lisp 12:49:10 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E61D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:49:17 Hello! 12:49:41 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-88-185.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 12:50:41 ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:51:04 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:51:21 -!- krumholt is now known as klausi 12:53:56 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E473BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:00:37 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [No route to host] 13:02:07 delqna [n=delqna@p54A3726F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:43 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:54 -!- Corun [n=Corun@94-194-31-231.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving..."] 13:04:01 -!- jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has left #lisp 13:07:14 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:11:49 hello spiaggia 13:13:58 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:05 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:06 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 13:16:05 dat [n=dthomp@98.98.142.230] has joined #lisp 13:20:28 -!- Taggnostr2 [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 13:20:43 Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 13:22:02 dto22 [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:22 can someone recommend me a good way to print out CL code? 13:22:55 cl-typsetting seems like the best option so far, but it screws up my indenting 13:23:09 yvdriess: emacs ps-print-buffer, or GNU enscript 13:24:12 enscript can do decent typesetting 13:25:03 for code, I use enscript -E --font=Courier@8/10 --line-numbers --mark-wrapped-lines --output=- ${1+"$@"} | open -a preview -f # the latter part being OSX-specific 13:25:04 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:27:17 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:27:29 ps-print-buffer doesn't do any typesetting/syntax coloring it seems 13:27:38 trying enscript 13:27:55 used it before for scheme code :P 13:31:02 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@natxitua.gti.ssr.upm.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:33:27 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:13 michaelw: it works, but doesn't do any syntax coloring 13:36:23 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:48 oh I see, it has elisp and scheme, but not CL support :( 13:37:40 yes, well. I use printed out listings mostly to draw on (e.g., to understand complicated control-flow, etc.). WFM, YMMV, HAND. 13:37:52 s/draw/scribble/, perhaps 13:37:59 same :) 13:38:10 but when it's student code I'de like some syntax coloring 13:38:34 even though we drill/torture them into using standard identation, it's usually a mess 13:38:55 tombom_ [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 13:39:10 cl-typesetting's pprint-file would have been ideal if the indent wouldn't be screwed up 13:41:10 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:10 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:41:13 aquamacs' buffer print just prints it with my black background etc :/ 13:41:18 *slackaholic* is away: almoçando... having lunch... 13:44:21 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 13:47:06 bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:14 wasn't there some mode to make a htmlized view of the buffer, preserving whatever coloring it had? 13:48:31 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087A43A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:48:31 ah: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/Htmlize 13:48:38 that might be worth a try 13:49:21 particularly the PrintWithWebBrowser thing 13:49:22 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:19 |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E45FAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:10 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 13:55:11 -!- tombom_ is now known as tombom 13:58:54 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [Success] 14:03:28 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:04:22 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:04:43 jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has joined #lisp 14:06:26 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:07:37 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E45D3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:09:43 -!- klausi [n=krumholt@port-92-193-88-185.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:14:35 -!- slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-142-77.3g.claro.net.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:15:12 -!- kpierre [n=kpierre@jabber.hsdnetwork.net] has left #lisp 14:15:26 kpierre [n=kpierre@jabber.hsdnetwork.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:33 elias` [n=me@host86-141-109-194.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:21:26 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:21:31 how can I show the documentation string given to a CLOS (meta)class in slime? 14:21:50 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 14:23:35 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:23:56 (documentation (find-class ) t) should work at least 14:24:22 amblerc [n=user@24-180-81-97.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:26:50 minion: forget my memos 14:26:51 OK, I threw it out. 14:27:33 nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:39 G'morning all. 14:27:42 yeah, turns out that reg-reg movss/movsd are lossy. I had to replace them with full or zeroing register moves for correctness, and as a side effect, I got a nice improvement on regular scalar perf ;) 14:28:02 -!- kpierre [n=kpierre@jabber.hsdnetwork.net] has left #lisp 14:28:17 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:28:27 kpierre [n=kpierre@jabber.hsdnetwork.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:40 pierre- [n=pierre@89.223.30.184] has joined #lisp 14:29:32 There's also a 25% slowdown for complex single float division on Core 2, but not on Barcelona, so I think I'll mark that as a "FIXINTEL", and hope that inline unboxed constants will recover the slowdown back. 14:29:33 nikodemus: /me wants shortcut 14:30:09 -!- frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@wafer.futurs.inria.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:30:46 -!- pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:31:07 madnificent: M-. and read the docstring 14:32:00 stassats`: not the way I inteded, but close enough :) 14:32:04 thanks nikodemus, stassats` 14:32:40 jmbr [n=jmbr@164.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:34:06 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:34:13 -!- pierre-- [n=pierre@89.223.30.168] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:36:12 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:36:41 -!- dys``` is now known as dys 14:37:46 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@134.184.43.85] has quit [] 14:41:47 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:01 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181130081.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:44:49 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 14:44:56 i see "SHL RCX, 3 SHL RCX, 1" in sbcl, is there any reason it's not "SHL RCX, 4" ? 14:45:35 Because the peephole optimizer didn't notice it? 14:45:36 one shift to fixnumise, naother to multiply by two. 14:46:02 well, it's unsigned-byte 64 14:46:02 Sounds about right. 14:46:42 Essentially, whatever it's doing is likely split over two VOPs. 14:46:55 Have a look at the trace-file to see what is actually being emitted. 14:47:12 so, peephole optimizer, if it existed, would optimize that? 14:47:44 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 14:48:08 (that's a result of (* 2 (logand 1 n)) ) 14:49:31 right, so one shift to fixnumise (0 and 1 are fixnums), and another to multiply by two. 14:49:53 prabuinet [n=prabu@117.193.195.184] has joined #lisp 14:50:47 why am i getting compile error when loading with asdf for first time? 14:50:48 -!- amblerc [n=user@24-180-81-97.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:50:51 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:51:36 prabuinet: probably because your code contains things that are violations of the standard. 14:52:09 what errors, on what code? 14:52:21 getting errors even in hunchentoot and mcclim 14:52:43 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:14 http://paste.lisp.org/display/81414 14:54:57 that's not an actual error 14:55:17 scroll up for the error 14:57:00 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 14:57:08 it continues after i press 0 (try recompiling) 14:58:04 i got one more error! 14:58:47 can I access the so-far collected list in a loop macro? 14:59:17 stassats`: there is nothing to scroll up - it starts with : erred while invoking # on 14:59:22 (loop for i to 10 collect i into list do (print (cdr list))) 15:00:18 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:00:31 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:00:44 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-131-191.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 15:00:48 -!- ASau [n=user@host101-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 15:01:06 mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068083203.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:07 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:01:32 dthomp [n=dthomp@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:50 re aligning branch targets, we'd mostly want to align them on cache line boundaries (so 64 bytes, most likely). Would it be enough to round the size of code objects now that they have their own allocation regions on x86oids? 15:02:11 how do i traverse directory trees in cl 15:02:33 clhs directory 15:02:34 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dir.htm 15:02:37 minion: cl-fad 15:02:39 cl-fad: CL-FAD is a portable pathname library based on code from Peter Seibel's book Practical Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/cl-fad 15:03:00 thx 15:04:11 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 15:06:17 is FORMAT ~A generally relatively slow, irrespective of the lisp implementation? 15:07:10 dthomp: I think FORMAT is generally slow, compared to other functions, but I might be mistaken 15:08:06 dthomp: slow compared to what? Other generic pretty printing functions? 15:08:29 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.161.37] has joined #lisp 15:08:33 p_l: that was my impression as well, but I was wondering if the ~A directive was particularly a time-eater 15:09:23 FORMAT performance is incredibly variable, depending on your implementation and how much information it has available to it at compile time. 15:10:20 pkhuong: fair ? - I was thinking of something like WRITE-STRING coupled with some sort of 'coerce-to-string' function 15:10:57 nyef: thx 15:11:02 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:11:43 manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 15:12:03 hello 15:17:06 -!- ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 15:19:25 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:30 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:21:29 Well, (princ x) is bound to be faster than (format t "~A" x), but the later being simple might be optimized out and as fast as the former. 15:22:01 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 15:22:35 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:23:48 So... bound to be no slower than? 15:24:27 (<= (time (princ x)) (time (format t "~A" x))) 15:25:59 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 15:26:12 tseug [n=tseug3@cpe-70-112-21-137.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:27:04 -!- kpierre [n=kpierre@jabber.hsdnetwork.net] has left #lisp 15:27:28 -!- pierre- [n=pierre@89.223.30.184] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:28:28 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Client Quit] 15:28:34 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-131-191.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:32:36 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:33:36 mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:34:49 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@63.251.108.100] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:38:14 -!- jao [n=jao@55.Red-83-39-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:39:26 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:40:17 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83.64.248.68] has quit ["Verlassend"] 15:42:10 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-88-185.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:42:22 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:43:18 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 15:43:23 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:45 -!- dthomp [n=dthomp@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:45:01 -!- dat [n=dthomp@98.98.142.230] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:45:16 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:46:18 rockindie [n=sonu@117.197.60.149] has joined #lisp 15:47:21 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit ["time to go"] 15:47:38 notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@59.96.61.252] has joined #lisp 15:48:54 notsonerdysunny pasted "simple program to use the inbuilt lexical analyzer" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81416 15:49:21 dear all I am unable to compile the simple program in the above paste .. 15:49:28 can anybody help me? 15:50:02 <_3b> where does the #:lexer package come from? 15:50:20 <_3b> and what does the lisp say when you try to compile it? 15:50:22 I have "cl-lexer" package installed 15:50:41 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:18 You should have mentioned that by built-in, you mean third-party. 15:51:40 <_3b> also, why '#.cl:*package* ? 15:51:59 notsonerdysunny annotated #81416 "compile error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81416#1 15:53:22 _3b, i borrowed most of the code from an example which was there along with cl-lexer 15:53:31 well, there you go, your regexps don't parse. I'd guess that you have to quote the parentheses in the fourth case with backslashes (and backslash the backslashes themselves) 15:53:33 <_3b> random guess says escape the ( 15:54:17 fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has joined #lisp 15:55:44 dthomp [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 15:56:45 _3b I tried .. 15:56:46 dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 15:56:51 i does not seem to help 15:57:19 <_3b> "+|-|*|/|\\(|\\)" ? 15:58:05 <_3b> or maybe [(] instead of \\( 15:58:49 you guys are right 15:59:00 if I removed the 4th regexp .. 15:59:04 it compiles fine 15:59:48 ok let me try that 16:00:05 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 16:00:51 -!- mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.1.19/2008110600]"] 16:01:45 Yuuhi [n=user@84.131.230.29] has joined #lisp 16:02:14 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:03:21 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@212.145.105.212] has joined #lisp 16:04:23 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-168-132-106.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:42 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:06:27 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@74.125.59.1] has joined #lisp 16:08:23 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-7-82.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 16:11:21 hmm why does my lisp ignore my require's when i do C-c C-k from slime. it works however if i require on the repl and recompile 16:11:33 how well does cvs cope with flaky connections? 16:11:34 but it complains when i compile again that my defun's are being redefined 16:11:46 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:12:05 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [] 16:12:17 HET2: how do you know that the REQUIRE forms are ignored? 16:13:10 pkhuong: i get compiler warnings of the kind cl-ppcre:scan not found right beneath my require statement 16:13:16 warnings = errors 16:13:46 did you read clhs require? does it say that require should be executed during compilation? 16:13:56 REQUIRE is a function. By the time the rest of the file is being compiled, the call to REQUIRE hasn't actually been executed yet. 16:14:05 i see 16:14:36 what do i do instead then 16:14:45 use asdf 16:15:01 or #.(require :cl-ppcre) 16:15:19 use asdf 16:15:20 no, use asdf. 16:15:58 ah, much butter 16:15:59 thanks 16:17:11 and what do i do about redefine warnings? 16:17:24 don't redefine 16:17:26 ignore 'em 16:17:37 (if you know you're reloading something) 16:17:43 ah, ok 16:18:50 asdf1234 [i=812131fb@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-1579b62bba5b58ed] has joined #lisp 16:26:24 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:06 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:28:34 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-3-163.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:29:00 milanj [n=milan@93.86.188.15] has joined #lisp 16:29:12 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:29:34 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 16:31:23 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:31:56 -!- notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@59.96.61.252] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:33:41 plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 16:37:03 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:37:50 -!- cracki [n=cracki@46-203.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 16:38:09 -!- kanmahotell [i=kanmahot@178-213-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [] 16:38:37 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 16:39:55 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 16:41:09 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:41:38 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-1dcdf7ea1770abbc] has joined #lisp 16:44:18 rstandy [n=rastandy@host89-142-static.5-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:44:43 is there a somewhat sane way to ask cl to mkdir? 16:45:44 clhs ensure-directory-exists 16:45:44 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for ensure-directory-exists. 16:45:46 clhs ensure-derectories-exist 16:45:46 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for ensure-derectories-exist. 16:45:50 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.122.124] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:45:55 clhs ensure-directories-exist 16:45:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ensu_1.htm 16:46:15 group dislexia, how about that 16:46:20 oh, nice 16:46:25 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17E72C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:30 (fsvo "sane", anyway) 16:46:31 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@212.145.105.212] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:46:31 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@212.145.105.212] has joined #lisp 16:46:57 ; clhs e-d-e should be faster 16:47:29 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:30 fsvo? 16:47:31 *cmm* was never comfortable with potentially-ambigous abbreviations 16:47:39 "for some value of" 16:48:01 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has left #lisp 16:48:04 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:13 isn't MOP part of the common lisp spec? 16:49:26 nope 16:49:48 who would've thought 16:49:56 (well, a small part of the introspective part thereof is) 16:50:25 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:54:07 saikat_ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 16:54:34 weiday [n=wei@114.246.72.118] has joined #lisp 16:55:15 hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 16:55:16 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 16:56:02 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has left #lisp 16:56:35 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:11 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@212.145.105.212] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:59:03 -!- jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@74.125.59.1] has quit [] 16:59:33 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:38 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:02:08 -!- cirquitz [n=cirquitz@203.199.114.33] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:03:11 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:14 -!- timor [n=martin@w4389.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:07:30 icylisper [n=user@115.99.32.68] has joined #lisp 17:09:25 wroth [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has joined #lisp 17:09:56 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:10:52 MOP is not part of the CL spec but AFAIK nobody feels the MOP is not somthing for all CL implementations should do 17:14:12 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:15:18 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B313C01.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:15:55 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-168-132-106.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 17:16:06 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@74.125.59.1] has joined #lisp 17:16:43 Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 17:17:24 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:17:41 There is closer-mop wich irons over some idosyncracies between implementations 17:17:52 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:18:28 sbcl is the implementation that most closely follows AMOP 17:18:47 I only really wanted to know if it was really not in there or not... I'm considering it part of anything I'd really want to use for now 17:19:16 -!- yesthatgigamonke [n=user@adsl-76-254-19-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:19:36 -!- mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068083203.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:02 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 17:20:05 -!- wroth [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has left #lisp 17:21:38 wroth [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has joined #lisp 17:21:46 manuel_ [n=manuel@krlh-4d037ef8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:10 Unless you are considering gcl you should be fine 17:22:28 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-168-132-106.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:32 (double check that..) 17:23:21 -!- Ppjet6 [n=ppjet@ivr94-11-88-187-39-7.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:23:51 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-8-109.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:25:53 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:29:57 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:57 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:30:38 -!- icylisper [n=user@115.99.32.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:33:06 yeah.. Corman and gcl have incomplete mop support. The rest are mostly covevered in closer-mop. See feature check on the web page. 17:34:15 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@host89-142-static.5-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:35:45 GCL is afaik further behind ANSI than Corman 17:35:56 at least IIRC 17:37:16 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:17 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-34-141.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:37:54 Ppjet6 [n=ppjet@ivr94-11-88-187-39-7.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:20 multi word stack TNs how I hate you. 17:39:03 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A5D3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:39:06 pkhuong: complexes, non-single floats, catch-blocks, unwind-blocks, what else? 17:39:09 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 17:39:24 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-131.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 17:39:41 -!- prabuinet [n=prabu@117.193.195.184] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:39:53 nyef: x86-64, so just complexes and SSE, actually. 17:39:56 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:13 Catch-blocks and unwind-blocks are still stack TNs. 17:40:34 And long-floats would be as well. 17:40:43 yeah, but they're not accessed in a way that endianness and alignment could mess up. 17:41:05 Bitten by the alignment and stack grows down/up mismatch *twice* (once for complex doubles, and a couple weeks ago for SSE) 17:41:06 I suppose not. 17:41:39 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-88-185.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:43:06 dys [n=andreas@p5B313C01.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:49 im looking at some lisp code here and Im wondering 17:44:00 what does #+ en #- mean? 17:44:03 clhs #+ 17:44:04 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 17:44:17 (Essentially, they're for conditional compilation.) 17:44:56 k thx 17:45:57 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:33 baetis-fly [n=baetis-f@pool-71-185-70-86.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:39 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:53:19 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:54:34 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:57:10 seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has joined #lisp 17:59:34 -!- jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@74.125.59.1] has quit [] 18:00:56 hello. i am new to mac os, so far only used common lisp under linux. i liked to use slime and emacs, and sbcl. does anybody have any suggestion for me what to read or install? i have already installed clozure cl, but no IDE yet, no asdf, etc. 18:01:23 slime/etc should still work with aquamacs should it not? 18:01:30 schoppenhauer: sbcl, slime, and emacs work fine under osx 18:01:35 -!- Pavitra [n=benjamin@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:02:00 jlf: actually, i dont really get how to install sbcl ... there is no dmg-image like with the other programs. 18:03:00 schoppenhauer: download for your platform at http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html 18:03:03 jlf: and I dont really understand where to put binaries 18:03:10 jlf: did that 18:03:46 jlf: i get some tarball... 18:03:51 schoppenhauer: you install it under os x just like you do in linux. 18:04:02 schoppenhauer: Clozure CL on Moc OS works fine with slime and emacs. It also has awesome Cocoa integration and and IDE 18:04:04 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.122.124] has joined #lisp 18:04:17 schoppenhauer: tar -xjvf the-sbcl-file.tar.bz2 from a shell and follow the instructions in the directory that is created 18:04:21 pkhuong: aptitude install sbcl ;-) 18:04:58 if your a linux guy starting on mac you should look at mac ports http://www.macports.org 18:05:01 jajcloz: well i get some REPL from clozure cl. but actually I dont know where to obtain slime from ... i tried fink, but fink doesnt seem to have packages 18:05:13 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslhe157.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:05:15 wroth: thank you 18:05:59 jao [n=jao@64.Red-83-46-44.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:16 schoppenhauer: At the REPL type (require 'cocoa-application) and it will build an IDE that you can double click on 18:06:17 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@krlh-4d037ef8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [] 18:06:17 schoppenhauer: you may wish to use carbon emacs or cocoa emacs (builds from emacs cvs) instead of aquamacs, which is a bit nonstandard 18:06:50 jlf: actually, I do have some emacs ... in fink ... but its ... strange 18:08:16 I use cocoa emacs personally... it integrates nicely into the whole osx thingy 18:08:21 mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:09:02 schoppenhauer: one of the denizens of #emacs publishes nightly cvs builds at http://atomized.org/wp-content/cocoa-emacs-nightly/ 18:09:21 -!- rockindie [n=sonu@117.197.60.149] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:10:07 jlf: can coacoa emacs run with slime? 18:10:16 yuppers 18:10:31 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-7-82.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 18:10:41 root___ [n=root@0x5da22faa.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.hrnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:10:42 ok 18:10:49 -!- glogic_ is now known as glogic 18:11:07 thanks so far. 18:12:11 Intensity [i=[1ShoZMA@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 18:12:27 one thing to remember about osx is that down deep it's just unix... you can always drop to a terminal and install into /usr/local if you want to 18:12:35 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@201.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:13:10 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:54 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087A43A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:37 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:18:42 Adamant_ [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:42 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:21:27 manuel_ [n=manuel@krlh-4d037ef8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:53 benny` [n=benny@i577A151E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:25:20 -!- exu0 [n=u@dslb-084-056-156-213.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:25:34 ohmighod [n=user@ppp85-141-250-145.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:25:58 illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:57 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:28:33 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@164.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:28:35 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:29:46 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:29:50 i use osx as well, but on a g4 machine, so i can't use that cocoa emacs... 18:30:21 Doesn't cocoa emacs compile on ppc? 18:30:43 the README sais it's for intel macs 18:30:51 but maybe it would compile 18:32:15 Well, you still can run emacs in the terminal. 18:32:43 an old emacs (21 iirc) ships with osx in /usr/bin/emacs 18:32:50 <_3b> is there a way in clbuild to tell which projects have local changes? 18:33:32 well, I have an emacs, I just saw the discussion and checked out the link 18:34:07 but thanks ;-) the first emacs I tried out was in a terminal. 18:34:56 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:34:59 -!- dthomp [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:36:19 -!- benny [n=benny@87.122.33.86] has quit [Success] 18:36:23 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:37:42 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E44ADE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:45 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-22-97.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["« La POO c'est bien beau, mais en C au moins on va droit au but. »"] 18:37:54 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:27 Shapeshifter [n=Shape@saskatoon.icu.uzh.ch] has joined #lisp 18:38:39 Hi there. So I'm learning some lisp, and here it says to use emacs, but I'd rather not. I just installed clisp and started the tutorial in the REPL. Now it says that I can save whatever I've done using some emacs hotkeys, but how can I save my work from within the clisp REPL? 18:38:58 <_3b> copy and paste it to an editor? 18:39:30 _3b: ... So only emacs is able to save the commands I previously typed in the prompt? 18:39:33 -!- seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:39:50 Shapeshifter: generally with emacs, you type into a file and send it to a repl with a key shortcut 18:40:10 ah 18:40:15 Shapeshifter: What platform/editor do you use? 18:40:20 <_3b> you can save the current state of the lisp, but that isn't quite the same thing 18:40:26 parolang: clisp on linux 18:40:29 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@d54C28BA4.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 18:40:44 Shapeshifter: Well, you'll need an editor if you want to save your work. 18:41:03 <_3b> you can also use DRIBBLE to save your interaction with the repl, and later extract the parts you want from it, but an editor/ide that can talk to the lisp would be best 18:41:10 If you don't like emacs, there are other editors. 18:41:12 Shapeshifter: the path least resistance is to just use emacs + slime, as many former vim users here will attest. 18:41:20 path of* 18:41:25 yeah, I'll just do that. 18:41:26 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:41:38 <_3b> yeah, if you aren't allergic to emacs, slime is very nice 18:41:54 Shapeshifter: you might even grow to love emacs, and learning new things is never bad :) 18:41:55 Shapeshifter: What editors have you used in the past? 18:42:04 Emacs has emulation for most of them. 18:42:06 <_3b> (if you are, you could try cusp or one of the commercial lisps, or some vi addons) 18:42:45 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:42:47 *parolang* imagines that vim-users use viper or something like that. 18:42:57 parolang: vim, nano, geany... nothing out of the ordinary. I'll just learn emacs. It seemed pretty sane last time I had a look at it. Apart from the cursor-direction hotkeys being something like u d l r or something inconvenient like that 18:43:01 Or even the Clozure CL IDE :) 18:43:02 But the problem with emacs is that now you have to learn emacs too :) 18:43:02 i used viper for a while until i got used to emacs keystrokes. 18:43:33 bah .. you can learn enough emacs to get by with slime in 20 minutes. 18:44:02 good thing we have arrow keys these days.. 18:44:10 hefner: heh 18:44:24 <_3b> and programmable editors in case we don't like the default bindings 18:44:26 drewc: I guess its easier with the tutorial. 18:44:34 emacs: Total Installed Size: 75.48 MB , ^^ 18:44:42 _3b: Thats where the learning curve comes in :) 18:44:49 Shapeshifter: i have more RAM on my cell phone. 18:45:08 ;) 18:45:11 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 18:45:13 Shapeshifter: On debian you can get the console only version. 18:46:04 <_3b> don't forget that 75 MB includes a huge pile of random apps too :) 18:46:14 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.122.124] has quit [Success] 18:46:26 Yeah, there's a lot of unnecessary stuff that comes with emacs. 18:46:30 Help-> "Emacs Psychotherapist" wtf? 18:46:51 That's among the necessary stuff that comes with Emacs, Shapeshifter. 18:46:54 <_3b> dozen or so games, artist-mode, image viewers, newsreaders, mail, web browsers, IDEs for lots of languages, etc :) 18:46:55 Along with M-x psychoanalyze-pinhead. 18:46:56 But they are all the sort of things that make your emacs experience nicer. 18:47:24 (Except, due to legal issues, they took out one of the parts that is necessary for M-x psychoanalyze-pinhead to work, alas.) 18:47:35 Not to mention an IRC client :) 18:47:46 Shapeshifter: Turns out that coders need lots of psychotherapy. Has something to do with turning to an editor for therapy. 18:48:17 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-168-132-106.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 18:48:26 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A5D3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:48:31 *_3b* wonders how hard it would be to hook up M-x psychoanalyze to sbcl style warnings in slime 18:48:50 *rsynnott* wonders if the monthy python sketch with the computer psychiatrist was inspired by that 18:49:01 though probably too early for emacs, actually 18:49:03 By the way, is it already possible to render emacs frames and windows in a graphical web browser? 18:49:46 ohmighod: Why would you want to do that? 18:49:47 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:49:50 We'd get proper text rendering and wicked cool sharing and layout options. 18:49:52 <_3b> sure, just run wierdx, and use M-x make-frame-on-display 18:50:20 Proper text rendering? 18:50:21 Lemme write that down. 18:50:34 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 18:50:57 erig [n=erig@gw0.brightech.com] has joined #lisp 18:50:59 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@d54C28BA4.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 18:51:12 mhh, I installed emacs and slime and when I type mod-x slime it says [No match] 18:52:01 Shapeshifter: What distro? 18:52:05 archlinux 18:52:13 Oh, no idea. 18:52:36 <_3b> you might need to configure slime to use clisp 18:52:45 oh yeah 18:52:51 <_3b> (and we generally advise against using distro provided lisp software around here) 18:52:59 -!- hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [] 18:53:09 mhh 18:53:24 Shapeshifter: Put this into your .emacs: (setq inferior-lisp-program "/usr/bin/sbcl --no-inform") 18:53:35 err, but with clisp :) 18:53:45 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:54:13 Is my .emacs supposed to me in ~/.emacs ? Don't have one. 18:54:15 *_3b* wonders if archlinux fixed their sbcl yet or not (or did that end up getting fixed in sbcl?) 18:54:32 SHapeshifter: yes 18:54:37 _3b: what do you mean 'fixed' 18:54:38 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E45FAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 18:54:39 I'll create one... 18:54:42 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:54:44 Shapeshifter: You'll have to create a new .emacs file. 18:54:55 Shapeshifter: Just contains emacs lisp code. 18:55:02 <_3b> cp2: they dumped a core with debugger off and shipped that 18:55:12 oh 18:55:13 heh 18:55:17 -!- dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:55:19 <_3b> cp2: 'fixed' would be 'not doing that' in this case :) 18:55:30 Shapeshifter: Also, you should be able to read the slime manual from within emacs, type C-h i mSlime 18:55:42 parolang: I see... 18:55:46 * djfasjf 18:55:46 debugger invoked on a UNBOUND-VARIABLE in thread #: 18:55:48 works for me 18:55:55 Shapeshifter: Should give you help setting it up. 18:55:59 (yes im using arch) 18:55:59 <_3b> cp2: from outside slime? 18:56:03 yeah _3b 18:56:07 <_3b> cool 18:56:10 want me to try from inside slime? 18:56:15 <_3b> nah, slime was OK i think 18:56:31 yeah, works in slime too 18:56:40 i guess they did fix it then 18:56:49 <_3b> it was just breaking things like people trying to asdf-install stumpwm or something like that, since it would just exit instead of giving the restarts for gpg keys and such 18:56:51 parolang, maybe there isn't anything modern typography can do that years-old terminal emulators cannot. Honestly, I can't think of anything important. Ligatures? Right-to-left scripts? Dynamic styling? Kerning? That's either irrelevant to programming environment, or already possible with some tweaks. Still, that would be ever so cool. We could do away with using terminal emulators for anything remotely text-heavy and move to browsers 18:56:51 entirely. 18:56:58 yay it works. It compiled a bunch of stuff though when it started. Guess that's how its supposed to be 18:57:05 -!- jao [n=jao@64.Red-83-46-44.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:57:15 heh _3b, thats not good 18:57:25 ohmighod: I don't run emacs on a terminal emulator. 18:57:26 Shapeshifter: sounds about right. 18:57:27 <_3b> doesn't emacs do rtl scripts already? 18:57:58 _3b: I think they must have fixed it quite fast - they switched some software that people who don't use lisp might need to use SBCL instead of clisp 18:58:20 It probably does, but then it probably does it in its own way that is unlike anything else. 18:58:26 _3b: when did that happen with SBCL on ARCH? 18:58:30 ohmighod: don't say "browsers", please 18:58:41 ohmighod: I think you're thinking of an old form of emacs, but modern emacs is very GUI friendly. 18:58:59 this current trend of thinking that a browser might fit everything makes me scream. They were not designed for that, and it shows 18:59:01 p_l: would js&html rendering engines do? 18:59:03 ohmighod: Uses a graphical interface and can be tweaked to your liking. 18:59:17 <_3b> illuminati1113: not sure exactly, few sbcl versions ago 18:59:26 ohmighod: js&html are quite bad for what they are used, IMHO. 18:59:28 _3b: I' 18:59:45 _3b: I'm on Arch with SBCL and didn't notice... 18:59:52 ohmighod: BTW, I don't think web browsers can do ligatures either. 18:59:57 AFAICR there was a special build of emacs with rtl support back in 2005-ish. 19:00:45 <_3b> illuminati1113: yeah, i think it didn't affect slime, so most people who actually use lisp normally didn't see it 19:01:01 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:09 ohmighod: That doesn't mean I'm against building UI through declarative, "static" language and callbacks to some code, but js&html isn't it... 19:01:39 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-8-226.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 19:02:04 btw, for those who *absolutely* need emacs in browser... there is ajaxterm 19:02:14 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:26 <_3b> nah, weirdx would be much more fun :) 19:02:42 Sure, the current trend to cram everyting into one application is horrible, but we're already relying on existing facilities to render text, and that funcionality is what people in webkit and mozilla communities are working on. 19:02:56 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:03:01 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:03:23 19:03:23 19:03:23 /me doesn't like web applications. 19:03:33 p_l, that's emacs inside terminal emulator inside a web page inside what not necessarily is a proper web browser. 19:04:25 The flagship app for "cloud computing" is gmail and, honestly, not a big fan of it's interface. 19:04:25 -!- ohmighod [n=user@ppp85-141-250-145.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:05:48 you could say that I dislike web apps for not having good UI :3 19:06:20 ohmighod [n=user@ppp91-76-63-177.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:08:19 Hmm... looking into movitz... doesn't appear to be breathing very well 19:09:29 so, you want to do first aid? 19:10:10 stassats: that's brilliant :D 19:10:56 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:11:42 The tutorial says that while editing the file, I'm supposed to be able to do C-c C-c in or after the defun form, to run the code in the repl, but when I do that it says DEFUN: "Invalid lambda list element "hello world" and I need to abort 19:12:06 <_3b> you (probably) have parens in the wrong place 19:12:13 <_3b> lsipaste: url 19:12:20 <_3b> lisppaste: url 19:12:20 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 19:12:34 nah, my mistake 19:12:34 Shapeshifter: C-c C-c does not copy the form at point to the repl 19:12:37 <_3b> paste your code there and we can tell you where, or just look at it more closely :) 19:12:47 Shapeshifter: It will compile and load the form at point into the Lisp image 19:12:54 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:13:15 Shapeshifter: For example, this way you can compile a function definition into your image, and then you can invoke the function at the RPEL 19:13:17 REPL 19:13:33 is there a code-walking library that is "aware" of lisp conventions? 19:13:49 for example, it knows that (cond (t 42)) is not a function call to a function called #'t 19:14:01 jrockway: take a look at cl-waker 19:14:05 cl-walker 19:14:06 <_3b> any code walker should know the special forms 19:14:13 marmoell [n=marmoell@p54A9EA20.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:30 <_3b> (and any non-standard special forms should have a macro expansion) 19:14:40 yeah, otherwise you wouldn't need such codewalker 19:15:11 that's essentially the definition of a code walker :) 19:15:22 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:15:37 yeah, ok 19:15:42 I'd like to get something which a windowed environment, editor, browser, and chat... from there... 19:15:43 i was hoping i would not have to write my own 19:15:51 :) 19:16:24 wroth: get mcclim working on it, and you'll get all mentioned in one form or another 19:16:29 cl-walker is excellent. 19:16:34 benny99 [n=benny@p5486E0A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:18 really there is only one device driver you need on todays systems... usb 19:17:30 .. 19:17:54 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:18:00 barring 3d graphics a usb interface can do everything 19:18:45 <_3b> not sure i'd call that 1 driver 19:18:52 that would be only useful for sending bytes back and forth, not actually using devices 19:18:53 heh, true 19:19:12 it's one 'hardware' driver 19:19:25 *_3b* tried to implement usb drivers once, don't remember if i ever succeeded or not 19:19:48 wroth: USB is also one of the most crappy interfaces in current systems. Worse than many ISA-based interfaces, too 19:19:52 -!- mega1 [n=mega@pool-0612f.externet.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:20:22 I can't particularly argue with you there... but it's the only one which supports all the "stuff" 19:21:00 you only need network card to connect to the internets, to use your browser and chat 19:21:08 -!- benny99 [n=benny@p5486E0A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:21:35 benny99 [n=benny@p5486E0A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:47 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:22:02 wroth: Assuming only USB devices, you're left with whatever hwbus you need to drive your USB host, and then thousands of special device drivers for all the "stuff" 19:22:29 if you want driverless experience, manipulate reality to make everyone switch to 9p-over-ieee1394 :> 19:22:42 (or similar) 19:22:54 There are common interfaces for each type of device over usb. Not that everyone uses them 19:23:00 i'd like beer-over-ip 19:23:06 but theoretically a usb audio is just a usb audio 19:23:20 wroth: And they won't fit everything. Thus my suggestion for 9p-over- 19:24:10 -!- marmoell [n=marmoell@p54A9EA20.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 19:25:14 mib_2rfzpm [i=5895d283@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a3f2c970cfd3ba20] has joined #lisp 19:25:47 -!- mib_2rfzpm [i=5895d283@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a3f2c970cfd3ba20] has left #lisp 19:25:49 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 19:26:12 -!- wroth [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has quit [] 19:26:24 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:26 -!- drwhen [n=doctor@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:27:32 jlf` [n=user@209.204.171.101] has joined #lisp 19:27:44 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.117.90] has joined #lisp 19:28:49 What? There was a discussion of USB device drivers and I missed it? 19:29:45 _3b: FYI Emacs treats RTL scripts as LTR scripts. 19:29:52 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.161.37] has quit ["Log this!"] 19:30:23 ...which can be easily seen in the hello file. 19:30:34 <_3b> ... assuming you use a font that can display them :p 19:30:48 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:30:53 *_3b* tried that and just got boxes (though i was guessing it wasn't rtl from the position anyway) 19:31:21 _3b, which platform are you on? 19:31:28 <_3b> linux 19:32:39 I reckon code2000 works there too. 19:32:51 hello file has java, but no lisp, what a shame 19:33:15 It prints the appropriate line *telepathically* 19:33:50 <_3b> i'm sure there are lots of fonts with better language coverage than 6x10 19:34:07 <_3b> (though 6x10 seems to have improved) 19:34:13 d'oh, who needs them anyway? ASCII FTW! 19:34:51 *_3b* doesn't 90% of the time 19:35:23 <_3b> and emacs dumps in some huge alternate font for CJK stuff with covers most of the rest of my needs 19:35:55 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:38:29 What's the proper way of displaying package documentation? Say, C-h a quail lists inner functions, but doesn't offer any kind of overview. 19:40:25 Is it reasonable to require pixel data (for glTexImage2D, for example) to be in a specialized vector? 19:40:50 <_3b> i'd say expose both 19:40:59 Expose both what? 19:41:10 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:41:38 <_3b> support for unspecific sequence types, and specialized vectors 19:41:47 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 19:41:57 jjttjj [n=jjttjj@ip24-250-39-58.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:00 <_3b> (actually, was thinking more in terms of foreign vectors, but that doesn't apply to you) 19:42:41 anyone know a good guide/way to get used to the various lisp loops? I'm new and i'm having the trouble getting the hang of them 19:42:42 Right. If the user is silly enough to have read his texture data into a list, then the user can pay the price of a call to COERCE themself. 19:42:45 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-58-228.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:43:28 jjttjj: Dolist and dotimes are easy to remember. DO is pointless to remember. LOOP is the one that needs decent practice, and that's largely a matter of practice. 19:43:29 jjttjj: write more 19:43:33 jjttjj: just use LOOP 19:43:45 jjttjj: pcl has a good chapter on LOOP 19:43:49 ok cool i was focusing mainly on DO, thats probably why 19:44:09 *drewc* has never used DO in production code. 19:44:37 If I ever used DO in production code it was because I didn't know about LOOP at the time. 19:44:48 you need DO to understand others code 19:44:54 <_3b> probably my only use of DO was testing my implementation of DO :p 19:45:01 stassats: Not if they don't use it! 19:45:15 sbcl code has some do 19:45:17 <_3b> (though i might use it indirectly from sicl stuff, don't remember which primitives it uses) 19:45:26 *stassats* learned DO before LOOP 19:45:56 Okay, so specialized arrays it is... Too bad it doesn't quite make sense to infer the type parameter from the array type. 19:46:04 and it was quite hard to get DO, i recall 19:46:16 stassats: SBCL code also has some NAMED-LET. Doesn't make it good code. 19:46:31 (I did mention that NAMED-LET must die, right?) 19:46:43 yes 19:46:45 ok, you need to understand DO to replace it with something more sensible 19:47:03 Sure. But that's why we have the hyperspec. We can look it up each time. 19:47:04 anybody know how to read / write to files that have so-called wild card characters in their name? 19:47:16 e.g. (open "blah?.txt" :direction :output) 19:47:20 nzodd: Escape the wildcards? 19:47:26 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:47:37 <_3b> worst case, drop to ffi calls to os routines 19:47:38 nyef: doesn't seem to be working 19:47:52 nyef: presumably, \ should do it, right? 19:47:55 nzodd: Then you're probably using the wrong escapes. 19:48:13 probably 19:48:18 is that implementation dependent? 19:48:29 If \ does it, then it'll need to be doubled if you're in a string context, as it's also a string escape. 19:48:48 -!- Orest^bnc is now known as Orest 19:48:52 Probably, as filenames have a lot of implementation-dependent bits about them. 19:48:53 yeah, i tried it doubled too 19:48:57 I understand DO, I just can't remember it 19:49:32 hmm 19:49:37 <_3b> "\\?" works on sbcl/linux for me 19:50:07 _3b: thanks... that must mean it is implementation dependent 19:50:09 danlei [n=user@pD9E2F5C5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:14 <-- using clisp on linux 19:50:14 <_3b> it definitely is :( 19:50:19 ;_; 19:50:23 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:50:26 rwiker [n=rwiker@120.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:50:30 <_3b> expect unportability when dealing with unix FS semantics through lisp 19:50:32 *stassats* from time to time encounters his old code which uses DO 19:50:39 Look for the file using DIRECTORY and see what comes up? 19:51:15 nyef: oh, good idea 19:52:26 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:52:28 Can you recommend some Lisp project to read and learn from? 19:52:35 Hrm... Conveniently, all of the non-GL_BITMAP types for pixel data upload have an element-size that is a power of two and is a positive integer no greater than four. 19:52:38 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:53 -!- baetis-fly [n=baetis-f@pool-71-185-70-86.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 19:54:25 rockindie [n=sonu@117.197.60.149] has joined #lisp 19:55:48 jmbr__ [n=jmbr@92.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:55:50 Joreji [n=user@42-104.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:56:00 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:56:29 oh man... the clisp people write C the same way they write lisp 19:56:40 holycow [n=new@65.61.237.53] has joined #lisp 19:56:48 -!- jmbr__ is now known as jmbr 19:56:51 sounds better than the opposite 19:57:27 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@92.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 19:57:31 like... 5 levels of nesting in every function 19:57:43 oh noes! 19:58:02 <_3b> isn't that how all C looks? they just hide it by making the function so big you only see 1 or 2 levels per screen :p 19:58:05 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.117.90] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:58:23 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has quit [] 19:58:25 -!- prip [n=_prip@host230-122-dynamic.32-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:58:32 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:58:41 *shrug* 19:58:54 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 19:59:03 *tcr* wonders where he got the idea from that you're not allowed to access a variable introduced by stepping clause within the finally clause 19:59:38 I even thought there's an implementation which didn't allow it. But the open source implementations all seem to permit just fine. 20:00:02 -!- rockindie [n=sonu@117.197.60.149] has left #lisp 20:00:08 Maybe it was verboten in Franz Lisp? 20:00:10 wasn't that clisp? or that was about something different? 20:00:26 I think it was clisp, but I can't reproduce it 20:00:53 perhaps they fixed it 20:01:03 moocow [n=new@65.61.237.53] has joined #lisp 20:01:08 -!- rwiker [n=rwiker@120.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:01:55 http://clisp.cons.org/impnotes.html#loop-inter-var-finally 20:02:31 thanks! 20:02:57 -!- benny99 [n=benny@p5486E0A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:02:57 not being able to do that is a major drawback 20:03:07 <_3b> wonder if they consider x in 'for x from 0' to be unspecifed also 20:03:50 I also wish regularly for that accumulation clauses were allowed after finally. I often want: finally append (foo) 20:03:51 -!- moocow [n=new@65.61.237.53] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:04:04 <_3b> yeah, that would be nice 20:04:04 *hefner* suspects he does that kind of stuff all the time 20:05:24 moocow [n=new@65.61.237.53] has joined #lisp 20:06:46 prip [n=_prip@host230-122-dynamic.32-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:06:51 ((lambda (y) (loop for x on y finally (return x))) '(1 2 3 4)) what should this return? 20:07:16 dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 20:07:21 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:07:32 <_3b> if it were specified, i'd assume NIL 20:07:42 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-802fe8b8b185d46d] has joined #lisp 20:07:47 <_3b> but leaving it unspecified seems reasonable too 20:08:46 (loop for x on '(1 2 3 4) finally (return x)) returns NIL 20:09:05 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-36-96.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:09:14 in practice? 20:10:16 oh, i finally understand why slime keep telling me "The variable * is unbound." sometimes 20:10:31 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@201.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:10:59 -!- root___ [n=root@0x5da22faa.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.hrnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:12:19 with safety 0 ((lambda () x)) returns , and slime binds it to * repl variable 20:12:27 now, how to avoid this 20:12:36 <_3b> don't use safety 0? 20:13:01 billstclair-sitt [n=billstcl@dsl-74-209-18-104.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:02 well, i sometimes do need it 20:13:42 For instance? 20:13:45 -!- billstclair-sitt is now known as billstclair 20:14:23 -!- rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:14:29 i was disassembling some code, with safety 0 it's more readable 20:14:54 -!- benny` is now known as benny 20:15:11 -!- holycow [n=new@65.61.237.53] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:15:17 <_3b> ah, guess i do use it for that once in a while 20:15:32 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 20:16:18 and i also use it for stupid bruteforce for project Euler 20:16:35 *_3b* usually can avoid needing it for optimization 20:16:36 gigamonkey` [n=user@adsl-76-254-19-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:16 *_3b* possibly overuses inlining though :) 20:17:44 *stassats* uses everything, but clever math 20:18:35 <_3b> with inlining and type declarations in the right places, you can frequently push the safety out of the inner loops 20:19:35 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:20:46 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:54 tombom_ [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 20:20:57 -!- Joreji [n=user@42-104.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:21:12 I think I mostly use (safety 0) when I'm doing "system stuff". 20:21:13 <_3b> take it too far though, and sbcl complains about inlining too much 20:21:48 there is sb-ext:*inline-expansion-limit* for this 20:21:54 <_3b> yeah, i had to raise it 20:22:11 <_3b> i think that particular experiment was a failure though 20:22:12 -!- moocow [n=new@65.61.237.53] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:22:14 _3b: You can declare function maybe-inline, they'll only be inlined if explicitly told so on call-site 20:22:18 <_3b> didn't actually end up as useful as i'd hoped 20:22:43 <_3b> tcr: i wanted them inlined, i was just inlining a /lot/ of calls, with inline calls in them, etc :) 20:22:53 tcr: Or you could declaim the function inline, define the function, then declaim it notinline, which gets you the same effect portably. 20:23:05 Actually that was what I was referring to 20:23:23 There's an explicit maybe-inline in CMUCL and possibly still in SBCL. 20:23:37 it's still there, perhaps dysfunct 20:23:40 elias` [n=me@host86-141-109-194.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:23:43 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-58-228.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:23:58 -!- jjttjj [n=jjttjj@ip24-250-39-58.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Go on, try it!"] 20:24:20 btw, i was wondering can i somehow inline some internal sbcl functions? like generic-*, etc. 20:24:33 mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068130095.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:54 What happens if I write-sequence a (vector single-float) to a stream of element-type (unsigned-byte 8)? 20:24:57 jjttjj [n=jjttjj@ip24-250-39-58.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:09 <_3b> doesn't it complain? 20:25:17 Don't know, haven't tried it yet. 20:25:26 with safety 0? 20:25:30 stassats: I may be talking garbage, but I seem to remember you can only do so if the function is either declared maybe-inline as above, or defknowned 20:25:31 nyef: I bet it's implementation-specific 20:25:32 I suspect that I'm going to do something involving displaced arrays. 20:26:37 <_3b> looks like 'might signal an error of type type-error' 20:26:52 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:26:53 -!- tombom_ is now known as tombom 20:26:56 Mmm... Okay, displaced arrays seems like a saner choice, then.. 20:27:29 <_3b> displacing onto a different type array you mean? 20:27:31 stassats: Oh I see now what you mean. You can't put a (declare (inline sb-vm:generic-+)) in there because you do not call it directly 20:27:32 Yeah. 20:27:41 *_3b* would have assumed that wasn't legal either 20:28:15 tcr: i do call sqrt directly, and with inline it still shows up in the disassemble 20:28:18 <_3b> probably not too hard to find something sbcl specific though 20:28:27 Consequences are undefined, but extremely useful. 20:28:33 or maybe it's in a different package, i can't tell with disassemble 20:30:25 -!- delqna [n=delqna@p54A3726F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:30:38 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:30:42 *stassats* wonders why (* double-float fixnum) gets inlined, but not (* single-float fixnum) 20:31:23 <_3b> fixnums bigger than single floats maybe? 20:31:55 stassats: src/assembly/x86/arith.lisp 20:31:59 -!- ohmighod [n=user@ppp91-76-63-177.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:32:55 _3b: right, it does with (unsigned-byte 16) 20:33:48 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:33:51 -!- jjttjj [n=jjttjj@ip24-250-39-58.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Like it? Visit #hydrairc on EFNet"] 20:35:09 ugh, one needs to have quite a good understanding of the compiler internals for writing efficient code 20:35:28 <_3b> and once you have that, you need to know the cpu and memory subsystem :) 20:35:32 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-173-76-163-72.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 20:35:49 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:35:53 justin` [n=justin@ip24-250-39-58.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:45 hmm 20:37:19 someone say something, I'm testing emacs' irc lol 20:37:57 justin`: I'm saying something. lol 20:38:01 Then test it in #emacs. 20:38:07 _3b: for each micro-architecture 20:38:37 justin: erc? 20:42:14 Yep 20:43:35 s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-168-234-193.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:55 hm, ccl has more lispy disassemble, but it's harder for me to read it 20:46:13 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 20:47:25 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 20:49:07 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-7-166.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:49:17 -!- erig [n=erig@gw0.brightech.com] has quit [] 20:49:56 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:20 kanmahotell [i=kanmahot@120-214-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:33 memnon [n=user@e178225150.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:52:37 Can somebody answer my stupid question:"Is there some realisation of LISP for J2ME"(mobile phone-nokia) :-) 20:52:44 ? 20:53:15 probably someone can 20:53:36 kanmahotell: you can write one as an exercise 20:53:40 <_3b> google might be able to 20:53:48 ABCL might work for that, maybe 20:54:05 stassats: it's the most hated line in textbooks, IMHO 20:54:32 "the solution to deleting from balanced tree is left to reader" >:-| 20:54:36 p_l: good thing we are on IRC 20:54:49 google found clisp on a nokia 810 20:55:21 well, n810 isn't quite a phone 20:55:24 stassats: ? I don't have *that* many problems with anger management... ^^; 20:55:25 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:56:15 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-160-164-129.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:56:45 (somehow, lambdabot has this weird, out-of-context quote about me...) 20:57:42 -!- memnon [n=user@e178225150.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 20:58:48 JohnnyL [n=chatzill@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:07 *stassats* thinks to write Lisp for his mp3-player, just for the hell of it 20:59:43 Is your mp3 player a DS? 21:00:00 moocow [n=new@65.61.237.53] has joined #lisp 21:00:11 what's DS? 21:00:29 saikat__ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 21:00:33 Nintendo DS 21:00:51 It's my mp3 player, and i'd like a lisp for it, but i'm not up to the task 21:01:03 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:24 You guys are trying to suck me back into hacking on that SBCL ARM port again, aren't you? 21:01:34 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:01:43 Jarvellis: no, that's a cowon d2 21:01:48 <_3b> sbcl in 4mb would be more impressive than sbcl on arm :) 21:01:51 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:04 _3b: I have a core that fits on a floppy disk. 21:02:08 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:02:18 -!- moocow [n=new@65.61.237.53] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:02:18 nyef: an sbcl core? 21:02:22 nyef yep, also the openpandora should be out w/in the next few months and is an arm system 21:02:23 <_3b> ah, i guess that might work then 21:02:23 Doesn't do anything useful, though. 21:02:34 a three foot diameter floppy? :) 21:02:37 Has anyone here used OpenCl. 21:02:59 <_3b> did the lispms even run in under 4mb? 21:03:04 No, it was from the sbcl-os thing. 21:03:14 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.0.243.215] has joined #lisp 21:03:20 jthing: re there proper tools? 21:03:26 _3b: Maclisp probably could run... 21:03:29 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:03:38 _3b: ISTR that the Explorer could run with 8, but paged from disk. 21:04:15 didn't ancient CADRs (or CONSes) have fairly tiny memories? 21:04:21 moocow [n=new@65.61.237.53] has joined #lisp 21:04:22 <_3b> i think there is a DOS CL (star sapphire or something?) that runs in 8 21:04:30 Seems my NVidea card can be accessed in regular programs so I thought I would try to tweak my old mandelbot programs and see what kind of performance boost I could get. 21:04:51 KL-10 had slightly over 4M of memory, afaik 21:04:52 <_3b> jthing: look at the mandelbrot demo in the cuda sdk 21:04:58 Pavitra [n=benjamin@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:06 *hefner* swores he's run clisp on a 1 MB Atari ST, although only as a retro experiment 21:05:20 hefner: plent of paging? 21:05:21 _3b: thanks.. 21:05:33 paging? you'd need a real operating system for paging.. 21:05:53 oh, I was assuming this was an atari running some unix 21:05:55 it must have been an extremely ancient version of clisp, though. 21:06:09 rsynnott: there was Unix for Atari ST, though 21:06:27 hefner: Not really, though it helps. Paging isn't that hard to set up if you can get direct access to your MMU. 21:06:34 the m68k linux could perhaps have been coerced into running on it 21:06:41 nyef: what MMU? ;) 21:06:53 That's trickier. 21:07:15 *stassats* has only 32mb 21:07:20 But at that point what you do is do pointer swizzling... 21:07:26 millibits 21:08:11 (there was apparently a 68030 vsn of Atari ST) 21:08:29 gotta get get 21:08:37 That's why I said that Amiga was better! :P 21:08:40 MiNT is it? 21:08:42 dcrawford: i couldn't fit support for uppercase letters in 21:08:43 <_3b> ah, i guess star sapphire was 'up to' 8 MB, not minimum 21:08:54 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:09:03 <_3b> includes an emacs even :) 21:09:08 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 21:09:51 68060 @ 50MHz + PPC G3 750MHz, and that could be still done with Amiga 3000T xD (didn't get that one, though. It was faster than my PC at that time) 21:10:33 I hadn't realised the 68060 was ever really made available to consumers 21:10:56 (why did it have both processors?) 21:12:39 ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:13:14 elias` [n=me@host217-42-207-213.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:13:16 emulation is hard work, easier to just waste money on an extra processor. 21:13:24 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga talks about it 21:14:45 oh, they still had m68k software? 21:18:05 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:26 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:19:20 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 21:21:59 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:22:24 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 21:22:26 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:22:48 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:22:59 -!- moocow [n=new@65.61.237.53] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:23:28 foom: intel also discovered as much with itanic ;) 21:25:31 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:26:11 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:27:13 pkhuong: didn't they find the opposite? 21:27:29 (first Itania had hardware x86, Itanium 2 does it in software) 21:27:50 It was the Intel 800 series processor that neerly sunk them.. 21:28:27 I believe it's more like itanium 2 doesn't do it much at all ;) The original plan was to have a dynamo-style emulator, iirc. 21:29:06 A smithfield arcitecture with clock doubeling. Long pipelines. Hottest chip ever produced.. 21:29:21 rsynnott: amiga never really had a ppc version, unless you count really recent stuff 21:29:24 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-1dcdf7ea1770abbc] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:29:46 (Like in toaster, not awesome) 21:29:52 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-973136eca3631070] has joined #lisp 21:30:11 <_3b> heh, toasters were cool 21:31:39 rsynnott: Itanic I hw x86 support was the worst emulation attempt in history of arch-change :> 21:32:43 and if it's true about Itanic 2 being in fact made by HP, it would be obvious that it wouldn't have x86 support in hw :> 21:32:46 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:33:34 foom: They didn't want to switch arch, so they made it easy to put additional CPU :D 21:33:53 aja_ [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:10 that G3 combo could run basically completely on PPC, it even had PCI xD 21:34:29 p_l: mostly because amiga was essentially already dead by that time. It takes a crazy person to rewrite an os for dead system. :) 21:34:42 (said crazy people eventually got around to doing so, of course) 21:34:52 -!- bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:35:19 foom: I wonder if parallels might be drawn between how Commodore mishandled Amiga and how Compaq mishandled Alpha... 21:35:31 three cheers for crazy people! 21:35:41 more than three! :D 21:35:55 *p_l* got crazy enough to start learning on CPU design 21:36:17 to design a lisp CPU? 21:36:40 stassats: actually to make a RISC, but I was thinking lately of how to modify it to support hw GC 21:36:50 well, hw-assisted 21:37:48 with target software being L4 + possibly CL/Haskell/Erlang userland :) 21:38:06 indeed, you are crazy enough 21:38:19 Just make a new backend for SBCL. :-P 21:38:42 port sbcl to llvm first and make an llvm backend. :) 21:38:46 Ther's no longer any real need for a lisp CPU.. 21:39:11 But I guess you know that. 21:39:11 <_3b> who needs 'need' :) 21:39:12 nyef: Well, I'm going to first write a simulator in Lisp... and why not allow the assembler to be used by a Lisp backend? ;D 21:39:16 why? it will fulfil my dreams 21:39:28 jthing: It wouldn't be a "Lisp CPU" 21:39:58 I meant hw assist for GC, but other than that, a rather RISCy RISC :P 21:40:03 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@mail.viantgroup.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:05 there's no real need for jthing either, but that doesn't mean people come along in the night and extinguish him 21:40:14 p_l: what's the point in riscy risc? 21:40:24 hefner: Don't be so sure.. 21:40:46 stassats: it has simple ISA 21:41:25 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:41:26 I'm still surprised that Haiku is still around 21:41:26 ok, but that's nothing new 21:41:49 stassats: it's fun to build stuff 21:42:05 nyef: on x86-64, RBP is supposed to be aligned on 2 qwords, right? 21:42:11 stassats: I'm planning to build a complete workstation, with OS on top ;D 21:42:15 foom: right, but it's more fun to build something revolutionary 21:42:18 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 21:42:26 pkhuong: I don't know, but I would presume so. 21:43:21 stassats: there isn't much to be revolutionary right now. Revolutionary stuff might come with nanofabs, when producing special-purpose stuff would get near-zero cost 21:45:16 well, reversible computing is still pretty revolutionary. :) 21:45:19 *stassats* is more inclined to "it got to be perfect or i won't get off the couch" approach 21:45:22 I wouldn't mind one of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Roadrunner 21:45:25 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-129-25.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 21:45:59 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:46:02 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 21:46:04 the world's first TOP500 Linpack sustained 1.0 petaflops system 21:46:29 <_3b> that would probably be bad for your electricity bill 21:46:35 lol 21:46:55 jthing: looks similar to some of the latest Cray offerings (except Cray's is three arch hybrid) 21:46:56 <_3b> 2.35MW gets expensive quick :p 21:47:03 Power 2.35 MW 21:47:09 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit [Client Quit] 21:47:16 <_3b> the cray teslas looked fun 21:47:54 _3b: the teslas aren't that good of them 21:48:03 I prefer the Opteron/Vector/FPGA one :D 21:48:18 *_3b* has no actual use for a supercomputer, so it doesn't really matter :) 21:48:22 Even though there's decades worth of research into reversible computing, computers still generate tons of waste. 21:48:33 lol 21:49:01 _3b: I had once seen Cray T3E on e-bay 21:49:26 jmbr [n=jmbr@92.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:49:37 *_3b* has ~1tflops already, and all it does is sit around displaying emacs :p 21:50:14 nyef: seems not. Yay. 21:50:59 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 21:51:01 *hefner* is alternatingly amazed at how fast computers are, and distressed at how slow they still are 21:51:02 \me, not being a vim user, ignores the obvious joke about emacs performance 21:51:25 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 21:51:46 <_3b> heh, last place i worked, all the vim users had much GUIer editors than the emacs users :) 21:52:00 Mm, vim. 21:52:27 Mm, 4:52 on a Friday. 21:52:46 <_3b> if my screen was a few pixels wider, i'd probably even turn off the border thing in emacs where it shows wrapped lines 21:52:47 i'd compute Pi, if i got a super computer 21:52:58 OnePintNineFluid [n=fred@208.8.126.131] has joined #lisp 21:53:06 -!- mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068130095.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:53:21 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:19 <_3b> being able to compile sbcl quickly is nice at least :) 21:54:19 <_3b> (not that the graphics card helps with that) 21:54:19 you need to parallelize build first 21:54:25 *_3b* parallelizes sbcl builds by hand 21:54:41 how? 23:14:25 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 23:14:25 23:14:25 -!- names: ccl-logbot holycow mjf Corun md1 fph kejsaren S11001001 fe[nl]ix ignas jthing Ginei_Morioka krumholt__ dreish hnr teilzeitstudent_ legumbre ssttss aja mrsolo ice_man` Jasko2 mattrepl saikat__ JohnnyL Edward_ REPLeffect s0ber_ justin` gigamonkey` billstclair rread dat prip danlei dstatyvka jlf` stassats rstandy Shapeshifter seelenquell Fufie illuminati1113 benny Adamant_ The-Kenny Intensity manic12 dys Ppjet6 blackened` Gertm cracki dialtone 23:14:25 -!- names: parolang sad0ur weiday ASau plutonas amnesiac asdf1234 Jarvellis Yuuhi proq athos rdd tseug HET2 nha sohail konr dto22 Taggnostr jeremiah grouzen V-ille2 mtd joga kuhzoo kei matimago 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