00:00:07 is there a way to distinguish from a fullpath and a relative path? 00:01:03 i don't get this static typing vs. dynamic typing war. if the language is strongly typed, i mean if it checks the object class of the variable somehow, what is all the argue about not determining variable type, since in fact it is determined anyway, not by some keywords that programmer gives, but by the value itself. then, do i miss some point or is it an advocacy arised from personal preferences. i really don't see the difference 00:01:03 between static and dynamic typing as long as both are strongly typed. 00:02:51 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633852.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:03:48 droogie: static typing proponents sometimes go with the "it's more efficient, and it catches more bugs during compile-time, so the app doesn't crash -later- (at runtime)" 00:04:00 mmm nice question, I'm a complete noob myself on Lisp, lol 00:04:38 dynamic typing argument sometimes goes along the lines of "It's more flexible, compile-time type checking is not -that- useful for tracking bugs, and I like it better" 00:05:02 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:26 i'm sorry for the off topic question by the way, here is not really a great place to compansate someones curiosity, but i ask here because i don't think there is no better place to get an objectiove answer for that since lisp guys probably have experience with both. 00:05:26 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:06:16 as far as I get it, eval function isn't behind the dynamic typing concept? 00:06:48 you get it that far 00:07:38 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 00:07:59 so eval is the soul of dynamic typing languages... 00:08:06 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:08:06 sykopomp: so the real (i mean not preference related) difference is between strongly typed and loosely typed languages, right? 00:08:21 nm, behaviour is correct as is 00:09:04 theL00p: no 00:09:10 I personally think it ends up being more a matter application domain and personal preference. 00:09:18 theL00p: it has nothing to do with typing per say 00:09:26 probably explains why everyone is so incredibly religious about it. 00:10:14 haskellians get a lot out of the fancy typing system, for example, but lispers get a lot out of dynamic typing, too 00:10:39 you tend to fight the compiler a lot when doing interactive development with statically typed languages 00:10:52 so for me dynamic + interactive just feels right 00:11:03 thats why haskell never worked 00:11:07 (for me) 00:11:30 dynamic typing seems to be really good for rapid development, yeah... specially when it comes to interactivity. 00:11:42 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host117.190-138-156.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 00:11:43 and in the case of lisp, you can add typing information later, where needed. 00:12:45 type systems are nice for some problems. most problems i've faced don't benefit from type systems. be it checking incoming values, internal program consistency or compile-time checking 00:13:51 static type information is useful for refactoring and IDE-supported development, though 00:14:34 hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:43 how is that 00:14:59 ide refactoring tends to be extremely primitive 00:15:06 compared to the stuff you can do interactively in lisp 00:15:47 i did not say "IDE refactoring" 00:15:59 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:01 well you mentioned ide-supported development 00:16:08 that's a matter of preference. depends on the ide. at least slime fails at providing hints on what one can do 00:16:33 one could do a whole lot if one knew of the ways 00:17:03 also it seems like the choice differs by the language characteristics, for example, the compile time error checking and debugging in lisp doesn't seem that seperate from each other as in languges like c. maybe that's why dynamic typing is more suitable for lisp. 00:17:10 you can do far more than you can do in a statically typed language thats for sure 00:17:33 and in most cases you don't have to rewrite/refactor half your program 00:17:41 just to appease the compiler 00:17:48 xristos: a type system reminds you of all the places which you forgot to change while refactoring 00:18:34 the two ways are separate and different 00:18:37 it may be used like this 00:19:04 but there are problems with that too 00:20:50 michaelw: lisp's compiler tells me a lot of that, too 00:21:01 michaelw for me its a difference in programing methodology 00:21:14 but in a static typing system, those "changes you forgot to do" can sometimes be "things I did for the sole purpose of appeasing the compiler, before" 00:21:17 you see when i write a program, i don't usually have uml diagrams and specs of any kind in front of me 00:21:48 the whole program evolves as i write it and i value very much the fact that lisp allows me to concentrate on the actualy essence 00:22:06 instead of worrying about types or structure or getting rid of compiler errors 00:22:20 thats why it maps extremely well to bottom-up/interactive development 00:23:21 -!- benreesman [n=ben@asa01-ext.utc.backmo.com] has quit [] 00:24:00 xristos: I know. lisp is nice for building things up interactively and incrementally. but maintenance/refactoring is a different activity. 00:24:12 -!- azanar [n=edcarrel@edm1a.mavericklabel.com] has quit [] 00:24:29 benreesman [n=ben@asa01-ext.utc.backmo.com] has joined #lisp 00:24:42 case in point: gwking's libraries were broken repeatedly in the past after his refactorings 00:25:23 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host87.190-137-248.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:25:50 not CL's fault if he can't get it right the first three times 00:25:56 which is where unit tests are nice. 00:27:07 i like the idea of dynamic typing because it lets me concentrate on the idea itself by hiding machine related subjects especially while i'm reading code. the code becomes some kind of formula, not a formula that makes a pc do something, but one that carries out an idea. but i think static typing might really be helpful for programmers that especially write more low level programs. personally, i don't think i need that help in my work. 00:27:32 unit tests are awesome \o/ 00:27:58 lemonodor: which he has in place, but apparently that's not enough; many of the issues were symbol-ownership related, BTW 00:28:00 i think you mean \m/ 00:28:08 droogie if you mean the kind of static typing you get in C 00:28:12 it sucks to spend time writing them, but you can usually just yank stuff straight from the repl to use as unit tests :) 00:28:18 i don't think it has worked quite that well 00:30:49 -!- pinterface1 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:30:56 xristos: maybe, i really am in lack of knowledge to see the efficiency level of it :) 00:30:59 pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:25 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.128.20.10] has joined #lisp 00:32:12 lemonodor: it's very good to read your blog by the way :) 00:32:24 thanks, droogie! 00:32:30 *hefner* wonders why his compiler messages end up in a clim-listener running in its own thread 00:32:45 *slyrus* discovered one of his libraries was rather broken yesterday 00:33:17 *xristos* started using 5am for tests 00:36:59 lemonodor: it was one of the first places that i meet lisp :) a blog entry is usually a better place for having a nice impression of a subject that you don't know anything about it :) (rather than a wiki) ehehe 00:37:18 *sykopomp* likes 5am a lot. 00:38:18 anyway, i think i get the answers about that typing think, thanks everyone. 00:39:04 droogie: great, i'm glad you found it helpful. 00:39:35 *hefner* misses the days of surfing to lemonodor to see cool new lispy things 00:41:13 -!- benreesman [n=ben@asa01-ext.utc.backmo.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:41:19 nowadays it's lemonodor auxiliary for some nice photography from elsewhere (: 00:42:04 omg, don't you write anymore? i missed that since they were all new posts to me :) i think you really should write :) 00:43:34 droogie: i don't do lisp anymore. 00:43:41 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:45 gasp 00:44:13 droogie: there's almost no lisp at http://twitter.com/lemonodor 00:44:25 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-40-88.ucr.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:45:06 hmm, i was reading lemonodor.com :) 00:46:45 lemonodor.com is now bookmarked ;) 00:47:25 there will be at least a few new posts on lemonodor soon. i swear. but again, no lisp. 00:47:32 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:47:41 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:14 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@66.166.232.134] has quit [] 00:48:34 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 00:48:52 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:49:16 you don't do lisp? at least you could write a macro that writes lisp post instead of you while still doing lisp :D 00:49:32 -!- dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [] 00:49:58 lemonodor: What do you do now? 00:50:19 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Success] 00:50:22 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 00:50:23 blitz_ [n=blitz@2001:6f8:10f6:200:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has joined #lisp 00:50:37 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 00:50:53 dkcl: python and c/c++ 00:51:06 so somebody now needs to patch the slime greeting to say "xach-fame" 00:51:35 what exactly is xach-fame? syndication on planet lisp? 00:51:49 that, or mention in one of his summary posts 00:51:57 he hasn't done those in a while, either 00:52:07 :`/ 00:52:24 where are you at nowadays, lemonodor? 00:52:24 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@dsl092-045-116.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [] 00:52:37 boo 00:53:00 -!- HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:54:09 the life of a lisp celebrity is not an easy one. 00:54:11 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:54:47 p0a [n=user@athedsl-379506.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 00:54:48 Hello 00:55:38 Is this worthy to write as a macro 00:56:35 http://paste.lisp.org/display/79436 00:57:40 something seems terribly wrong there 00:57:58 Why is this? 00:58:08 did you write this code? 00:58:17 I only wrote the second macro 00:58:20 hi, can I make a tabstop with FORMAT? 00:58:23 the first is from paul grahams book 00:58:45 egn: depending on what you mean, ~T might be for you 00:58:55 oh. well, I'm sure Paul Graham understands special variables. odd. 00:59:18 -!- vanLiempt is now known as Liempt 00:59:48 hefner: what is the issue? I don't understand what is wrong with that code 01:00:00 if that code is wrong, then the macro is wrong too, since it's the skeleton 01:00:18 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 01:00:25 No, that doesn't need to be necessary actually. 01:00:51 -!- white-rabbit-obj [n=cpc5@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:01:05 well, the macro doesn't look right, either. sorry. 01:02:08 What is wrong? 01:02:23 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-1c7ad06810de0d5e] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:03:11 hmm, I think I see what you're doing. yeah, that will work, if you're just trying to save typing the two progns. really just save typing the first, since the progn around the cleanup forms in unnecessary. 01:03:46 No you're wrong 01:04:07 cool. pressing business calls. 01:04:10 hmm I'm wrong, you're right 01:04:29 Should I rewrite it to use the progn only for the car of the body? Or you think it's just not worth it 01:04:32 I guess it's not worth it 01:04:53 I think it's not worth it, and I don't understand why he's manually saving/restoring what looks to be a special variable. 01:04:59 p0a you can use macroexpand to see if a macro makes sense 01:05:13 most importantly you can make sure it does what you think it does 01:05:15 xristos: The macro works and yeah I know, macroexpand-1 is better 01:05:21 in terms of examining the macro 01:05:30 the macro works but i don't think it makes any sense 01:05:40 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 01:06:06 boyscare1 [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:07 hefner: because the functions in the body operate under new context 01:06:16 context which the global state *db* has a specific value 01:06:29 -!- saikat [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [] 01:06:36 oh, well, double dumbass on me. 01:06:48 :-P 01:06:58 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-379506.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 01:07:26 that was unfortunate. 01:07:49 clhs unwind-protect 01:07:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_unwind.htm 01:10:55 benreesman [n=ben@ip68-101-196-173.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:56 *pinterface* can't think of a reason `(let ((*db* ,db)) (unwind-protect (progn (lock *db*) ,@body) (unlock *db*))) wouldn't have worked. 01:11:18 -!- benreesman [n=ben@ip68-101-196-173.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:11:24 yeah, exactly. 01:12:02 What happens if the body executes (SETF *DB* ...)? 01:12:25 should it do that? 01:12:29 -!- boyscare1 is now known as boyscared 01:12:39 Should the macro fail to unlock the intended database if the body does do that? 01:13:16 there are many ways to over-engineer it. this is one of those 01:13:24 oh you clever thing. that can be dealt with independently of the special variable, though. 01:13:47 Should it fail to reset *db* back to the original value if (release *db*) throws? :P 01:14:13 It won't fail to do that. But it may fail to unlock the database that it locked. 01:14:16 vande [n=sdfpme@59.36.186.252] has joined #lisp 01:16:06 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:08 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:24:04 -!- bobbysmith0071 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:24:05 I was referring to the original, not the let version (which yes, would have the problem you describe). 01:24:26 Actually, so would the original. 01:28:25 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:00 dysinger [n=tim@ip-64-139-9-115.dsl.sca.megapath.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:59 benreesman [n=ben@ip68-101-196-173.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:42 durka42_ [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 01:33:11 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 01:34:29 duende_inside [n=muggli@68.166.118.234] has joined #lisp 01:35:08 is it wrong to use another function's parameter that i call, in a function, i mean (defun a (x) (+ x y z)) (defun b (y z) (a 20)) if i call (b 34 65) these values doesn't recognised by the body of a, right? 01:35:40 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:36:25 do any of the usual utility libraries define a binary search? 01:36:36 droogie: right, it can't see them. 01:37:08 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 01:37:25 S11001001: wouldn't it take about as much plumbing to interface a "generic" binary search as it would to simply write one? 01:37:44 11001001: Paul Graham had code for one in "Ansi Common Lisp" The source of which is online. 01:38:17 hefner: I guess 01:38:55 S11001001: http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/paulgraham/acl2.lisp, look for "bin-search" 01:41:44 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 01:43:04 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-216-149.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:43:44 hefner: but shouldn't it work when i write (defun b () (let ((x 10) (y 20)) (a))) (defun a () (let ((z 30)) (+ x y z))) since when call b this time a is in the scope of let that binds x and y? 01:44:24 nyef [n=nyef@24.220.182.229] has joined #lisp 01:44:28 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-134-72.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:30 Hello all. 01:45:20 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-204-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:21 it again didn't work, i'm not planning to use let in a way like this but i'm just trying to get this scope subject. 01:46:39 anyway, there should be some detailed information in pcl, i think i'll read that part again :) thanks. 01:47:15 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:48:26 droogie: lexical scope, the default in common lisp, simply means that the scope of variables is determined by the physical structure of the program, known at compile time. 01:49:01 droogie: what you seem to expect is referred to as "dynamic scope" 01:49:41 uninverted [n=njs@ip98-184-78-113.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:42 sepult_ [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-31-170.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:51:31 so to work as i expected, they should be determined at runtime, right? i understand now, thanks. 01:54:20 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2DCBF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:18 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:57:36 -!- droogie [n=user@88.238.43.26] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:59:37 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:01:36 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-73-167.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:02:12 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-204-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:04:03 whatever, it's a stupid thing to write anyway 02:04:27 ? 02:04:37 I solved the issue by changing the API to remove the O(nē) insertion fixing algorithm 02:05:54 -!- danlei [n=user@217.84.242.206] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:08:39 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 02:17:32 legumbre` [n=user@r190-135-12-229.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 02:17:34 schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@cpe-75-81-202-25.we.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:21:14 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.68.107] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:25:11 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-176-43.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:04 -!- uninverted [n=njs@ip98-184-78-113.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:27:23 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:28:40 -!- alec [n=alec@pool-96-233-16-99.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:31:32 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:31:42 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:01 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 02:35:58 It would be terribly clever if this worked using multiple value setf: (incf (stream-cursor-position pane) (values x-offset y-offset)) =D 02:36:30 -!- durka42_ [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 02:36:55 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:38:50 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-45-15.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:41:23 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 02:44:00 -!- peddie [n=matthew@PEDDIE.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:46:46 jfactor [n=jfactor@student166-69.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 02:48:00 ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-69-209-223-131.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:01 Oh, neat, this SBCL wasn't built with threads. That makes the *standard-output* being sent to clim-listener less mysterious. Clever slime. 02:48:15 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:48:26 is there a built-in command to make a new copy of a hash table? or will i just have to iterate through the old hash table 02:48:31 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 02:48:48 -!- theL00p [n=user@78.33.52.101] has quit ["time to sleep"] 02:49:18 sorry, no function built in for that. 02:51:04 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.128.20.10] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:52:11 oso`pere1oso [n=nonamme@cpe-74-64-125-220.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:52:41 -!- nyef [n=nyef@24.220.182.229] has quit ["G'night all."] 02:53:02 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 02:57:35 ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPE is infuriating. 03:04:10 is it? 03:04:58 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-176-43.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:05:38 Well, more specifically, array upgrading. 03:05:45 clhs array upgrading 03:06:11 clhs array-upgrading 03:06:12 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for array-upgrading. 03:06:48 -!- oso`perezoso [n=nonamme@cpe-74-64-125-220.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [No route to host] 03:07:01 Bah, I don't need no stinkin' specbot 03:07:02 I think this is something that you have to consciously choose to get upset about. 03:07:34 -!- oso`pere1oso [n=nonamme@cpe-74-64-125-220.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:08:08 clhs 15.1.2.1 03:08:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/15_aba.htm 03:08:48 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:09:27 hefner: I wish. For example, arrays in SBCL will specialize on single-float and '(complex single-float). On the other hand, an array that specializes on fixnum does not specialize on '(complex fixnum), it upgrades to t. That makes it tedious to verify that I'm getting a complex array of fixnum components. 03:09:48 oso`perezoso [n=nonamme@cpe-74-64-125-220.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:10:04 so, don't. 03:10:17 or use typep, perhaps. 03:10:33 if you declare the type at the site of usage 03:10:41 sbcl will insert typechecks there, I believe 03:11:00 (when compiled with sufficient safety) 03:11:55 WillieWanka [n=alexei@adsl-190-43-159.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:56 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 03:12:05 ((hello) everyone) 03:12:24 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 03:13:37 -!- legumbre` [n=user@r190-135-12-229.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:13:38 WillieWanka: That is scheme, this is a Common Lisp establishment. 03:13:48 legumbre` [n=user@r190-135-12-229.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:15:45 (print "i apologize") 03:16:51 -!- schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@cpe-75-81-202-25.we.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:17:21 schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.202.25] has joined #lisp 03:18:44 an optimal rejoinder might have been (SETQ SELF 'SORRY) 03:20:36 mod12_do [n=meh@75.87.132.96] has joined #lisp 03:21:03 -!- mod12_do [n=meh@75.87.132.96] has left #lisp 03:21:46 WillieWanka1 [n=alexei@adsl-190-34-168.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:56 -!- WillieWanka [n=alexei@adsl-190-43-159.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:22:12 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:44 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:04 -!- WillieWanka1 [n=alexei@adsl-190-34-168.asm.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 03:25:33 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:51 -!- konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:29:56 aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has joined #lisp 03:30:53 Good morning. 03:31:04 Greetings. 03:31:04 good morning 03:34:25 -!- schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.202.25] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:37:44 saikat [n=saikat@67.180.9.222] has joined #lisp 03:39:00 droogie [n=user@88.238.43.26] has joined #lisp 03:41:34 oso`pere1oso [n=nonamme@cpe-74-64-125-220.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:43:45 -!- saikat [n=saikat@67.180.9.222] has quit [] 03:48:12 from pcl's simple db example: (defun make-comparison-expr (field value) 03:48:12 `(equal (getf cd ,field) ,value)) now, how can this "cd" variable work while it is a parameter of another function that calls make-comparison-expr? 03:48:19 hmm... if I have a function that wants to write a file, should I instead make it a macro and pass the extra args to with-open-file or should I just assume that whoever is calling it is going to want :if-exists :supersede? 03:48:23 and evening folks 03:48:48 -!- oso`perezoso [n=nonamme@cpe-74-64-125-220.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:49:15 slyrus_: Would it be useful to give them a continuation restart? 03:49:39 seems more hassle than it's worth... 03:50:23 i took the first approach for my tiff file writing, cl-jpeg takes the second. it would be nice to unify the two so that the ch-image functions that expose this functionality have the same interface 03:50:43 *tmh* does not like default to :supersede. 03:51:00 Rather, not default, but fixed. 03:51:23 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:51:38 I suppose making that an explicit argument and adding that to the with-open-file call makes sense as I certainly don't want a user passing in :direction :input here :) 03:51:50 or :element :character or somesuch nonsense... 03:52:24 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@2001:6f8:10f6:200:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:53:29 hmm, i see it now, its because the form is not totally evaluated, so the scope of cd variable is the body of the caller, i think. 03:53:45 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.48.233] has joined #lisp 03:58:41 saikat [n=saikat@67.180.9.222] has joined #lisp 03:59:26 chavo_ [n=user@c-66-41-11-10.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:10 coffeemug [n=coffeemu@ool-457219b3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:16 ah, this is one of those stupid things that always bothered me and I'm probably missing something obvious... 04:03:07 tmh: how can I wrap a with-open-file and _not_ set a default for :if-exists? 04:03:08 one way to avoid this is to pass streams instead of pathnames 04:03:17 hefner: yes, true... 04:03:44 I can use a macro for this I guess. 04:03:53 s/use/continue using/ 04:05:34 I wonder what the world would be like if this were part of the pathname object. 04:08:08 of course the default :if-exists behavior for with-open-file is pretty ridiculous since nobody uses pathname versions anyway (or do they??) 04:08:23 *slyrus_* says f**k it and goes with the cl-jpeg approach 04:09:23 am I inferring correctly that you're using a macro so that you can use w-o-f instead of using u-w-p and open? 04:09:42 hefner: yeah, that sounds about right 04:09:42 er, u-p. stupid phonetic spelling. 04:09:54 and just force of habit... 04:10:44 perhaps that's a better way to go... 04:11:15 slyrus_: I meant I don't like supersede as the default. 04:11:49 supersede - it's the unix way. 04:12:08 slyrus_: No, that's not it. What I meant is that I don't like :if-exists fixed to :supersede. But I also don't like it as the default. 04:12:21 Clear as mud? 04:12:55 wait, the options are evaluated too. 04:12:58 tmh: the problem is that specifying the default behavior is ... difficult. 04:13:15 or at least confusing for me 04:13:30 clim command 04:13:30 Multiple entries found. Try looking up one of: "command,Presentation Type", "command,Concept" 04:13:36 clim command,Presentation Type 04:13:37 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/27-6.html#_1453 04:14:11 tmh: and, apropos hefners point about unix, perhaps sticking with the way cl-jpeg does things would be better rather than trying to stick to the w-o-f way. 04:17:25 slyrus_: Consistency is a plus. 04:17:59 here's a cute idea for an sldb command; jump to the source for the first frame where the source is in the last [file, definition] I edited 04:19:31 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:22:55 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-66-41-11-10.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:28:13 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-69-154-8-40.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:33 Is there a symbol/var/something that allows for an auto-dummy variable? Something you can use and avoid having to avoid doing (declare (ignore . . .. ) ). Would be handy, just asking if it already exists. . . . 04:30:01 no 04:31:19 Modius: You want something that traverses the forms of a function and identifies unused symbols from the argument list or let binding, for example? 04:31:31 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 04:31:35 Then inserts the appropriate declare? 04:31:56 <_3b> NIL does that in LOOP destructuring, not anywhere else though 04:32:02 thm: I could do that - was just wondering if there was some shorthand equivalent in the spec that can be delivered at the variable level 04:32:09 tmh: That sounds like an ideal thing if you want to hide bugs. 04:32:25 beach: That's exactly what I was thinking. Intercal, anyone? 04:33:51 <_3b> seems pointless to do it for any variable, but would be nice to have some specific symbol for that purpose 04:33:56 Modius: While tedious, having to declare symbols ignorable by hand also helps document what you're doing later. Also, I've found very few cases where I legitimately need to declare something ignorable. 04:34:21 <_3b> binding multiple values and destructuring are common cases 04:34:34 <_3b> also matching function signatures (particularly methods) 04:34:46 tmh: I'm going to use "declare ignore" in this particular situation - I guess some lambda macro could be written to allow (lambda (a b (:ignore c)) etc. 04:35:11 But I am using declare ignore in this situation 04:35:13 *_3b* occasionally likes to use junk vars for printf debugging inside let*, but that is a bit of a silly use :) 04:35:54 _3b: Methods are the only place I've used ignore, especially before methods where I'm doing input validation on only a subset of the arguments. 04:37:04 one of my printf-debugging hacks is a function (hef:show label value) which prints the value with a given label to *trace-output* then returns the value. 04:37:05 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 04:38:24 So for someone wishing to publish a library, where do cool people put the .tar.gz for asdf retrieval? 04:38:54 cool people know that asdf-install is deprecated, and put up a git repository to clone 04:39:34 I was not aware of that - is there some automatic system now that pulls sub-dependencies in some way? Give me the name I'll go look it up. 04:40:03 not as such, no. there is cl-build, but you have to be extra cool to get into that. 04:40:10 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-12-62.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 04:40:11 _3b: I mentioned in a previous discussion of skipping values in a MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND that I had used *. I got the idea from compound type specifiers. I don't use it in production code, but I'm wondering what are the pitfalls with that? 04:40:19 Is cl-build able to pull legacy asdf dependencies? 04:40:22 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-4992.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 04:40:48 the packages in cl-build are hardcoded 04:40:51 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-7091.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 04:41:13 I guess if you want to be avant-garde instead of merely cool, you could look into mudballs 04:41:25 -!- legumbre` [n=user@r190-135-12-229.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:41:35 can sum1 help em find a error in my code plz??!!! ---> http://img410.imageshack.us/content.php?page=done&l=img410/9144/helppppp.png 04:41:48 or even more obscure solutions which I'm not cool enough to know about 04:41:55 http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/9144/helppppp.png 04:42:34 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:37 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 04:43:07 hey Quadrescence use paste.lisp.org, I can't read your handwriting 04:43:45 Is CL-build going to play nice to any degree with win32 and/or lispworks users? 04:45:16 -!- mogunus [n=user@173.9.7.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:45:53 unlikely 04:46:30 Asdf-install considered deprecated - is the rest of ASDF still in use? 04:46:37 yes. 04:47:10 (the proliferation of random version control systems seems like another great way to give the finger to windows users, where installing software is difficult) 04:47:23 topo [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has joined #lisp 04:47:28 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:47:40 hopefully xcvb will deprecate asdf here at some point 04:47:50 not holding my breath, but yeah 04:47:59 I fail to see how deprecating asdf will make my life any easier 04:48:14 Quadrescence: do you really use that font? 04:48:22 Nothing has to be deprecated, use whichever one you think is best. 04:48:26 fair enough 04:48:46 what I mean is hopefully it will exist in some implementation awesome enough that asdf will end up deprecated by sheer inferiority 04:48:56 droogie: ya the parenteses are tall they stick out mor 04:49:34 *tmh* is ponders getting a cup of coffee or going to bed 04:49:39 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:04 tmh: the answer is coffee :) 04:50:16 I guess that's the core difference between CL and Scheme - Schemers try to cut language features, CL tries to cull users. 04:51:17 that is a nonsensical remark. too many people like playing with their tools. 04:53:24 Modius, excellent point 04:53:32 -!- smolyn [n=smolyn@76.77.66.100] has quit [] 04:57:26 *pinterface* could never figure out why so few people produce updated tarballs of their projects. `darcs dist` or equivalent isn't that hard. 04:57:57 -!- saikat [n=saikat@67.180.9.222] has quit [] 04:58:13 Modius: "cutting language feature" part doesn't seem to be true anymore if we consider r6rs still as scheme 04:58:37 *pinterface* snerks 04:58:45 droogie: Haha, yeah, should have qualified that :) 05:03:24 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:04:50 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:05:02 afaik r6rs caused pretty serious arguements in the scheme community, too. both because of the contrast to philosophy of scheme and the change in the commitee members. 05:05:21 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:05:33 I think MIT scheme has refused to implement it and stated that they never will. 05:06:09 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 05:07:28 what a wonderful opportunity for CL to court Scheme users. To one side - "You want stuff? We got stuff!", to the other "Hate change? CL hasn't changed in 15 years!" 05:08:06 ejs [n=eugen@72-254-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:22 ha! 05:08:42 there is a fully r6rs compliant implementation of ikarus. 05:09:11 hefner: :D 05:09:25 justeco [i=tim@178.b162.bendtel.net] has joined #lisp 05:10:33 hefner: in fact i really like scheme :) 05:11:50 The hardest thing in shifting from scheme to CL is the loss of specified TCO. 05:11:57 I like scheme, but I like CL more. And I'd more like CL more if it were more like Scheme than I would Scheme if it were more like CL. 05:12:14 sdsdsd [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:45 hmmm, can you guys suggest me a library to parse html files without much complication? Take a look at this page: https://www.7chan.org/pr/ - I just want to turn every post into a tree/list 05:13:12 I have a hash table in a library that is indexed by symbol. I didn't know that symbols are eq even if they're in different packages -- is there a way to make sure the symbol, say 'cl-user::var and 'cl-app::var are considered different as far as that table is concerned? 05:13:21 -!- sdsdsd is now known as dto` 05:14:14 (it's causing an expectedly annoying bug where two apps using the same library in the same image get confused about what's indexed where) 05:14:24 sykopomp: You are somewhat confused. 05:14:44 Zhivago: I am. I'm not surprised that the symbols are eq, though. I'm asking what my options are. 05:14:57 sykopomp: symbols are eq if they're the same symbol -- a symbol from one package can be imported into another. 05:15:12 Well, it's more an error of thinking that needs to be fixed. 05:15:37 Once you fix the faulty premise it might become clear what you need to do. 05:16:00 I have a function that is supposed to fetch a globally-accessible object that clients use 05:16:01 symbol-package might be useful in understanding this. 05:16:01 hefner: so you want a common scheme, like a mutant, great wish :D 05:16:17 I don't really know what approaches I can take, but I'll take a look at symbol-package 05:16:51 sykopomp: That will tell you which package the symbol originates in -- irrespective of which package you are finding it through. 05:17:13 hm 05:17:38 Thinking of packages as string to symbol mappings may help. 05:18:48 droogie: nah, I want CL with tail call elimination, stylistic acceptance of the fact naming predicates with ? really is a good idea, and perhaps a botched yet lovable attempt at shoehorning in continuations 05:19:57 hefner: how about fixing sequences, too? 05:20:16 azanar [n=edcarrel@dsl231-050-036.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:27 sykopomp: what's that got to do with scheme? 05:20:34 hefner: clojure ;D 05:20:48 I would like to be able to tail a file with CL. Much like tail -f 05:21:01 sykompoop: What's fixed with sequences in clojure? 05:21:11 Are they generic? :) 05:21:18 hate hate hate 05:21:29 sykompoop: It has certain assumptions about sequences made and enshrined at the language level - choices I believe he's already had to change once - in hardcoding 05:21:31 in all seriousness, I wouldn't complain about having a couple of scheme goodies -- like an eval that accepts a lexical environment as an arg... 05:21:44 Modius: I was joking with hefner :P 05:21:57 syko: In many ways CL is a cut down CLTL2. 05:22:21 syko: CLTL2 has a lot of stuff that makes sense, imho. 05:22:24 I haven't read CLtL2, does it talk about that eval 05:22:25 ? 05:22:30 I believe so. 05:22:35 interesting 05:22:56 Ah, hold on. 05:23:22 there's something about eval not compiling its code, too, isn't there? 05:23:26 having it compile would be nice, too 05:23:27 >_> 05:24:04 Why do you want an eval that takes a lexical environment? 05:24:43 saikat_ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 05:24:55 let's say you want to evaluate something later according to the lexical environment inside a closure 05:25:08 would be handy to be able to get back in closures like that, I think. 05:25:11 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:25:12 or maybe I'm just crazy 05:25:22 or don't understand what a lexical environment is 05:25:35 I think you're probably a bit crazy -- what cltl2 supports is telling you the environment via evalhook, etc. 05:25:46 ah 05:25:59 It doesn't support eval in an arbitrary lexical environment. 05:26:03 CL compilers provide a good baseline for compiling down into fairly controllable C-type control. You could build radically different (lispy) languages on top of a good CL implementation - the only thing would be rallying people to your stack-o'-macros as opposed to a clean distinct language with its own compiler/runtime. 05:26:14 hefner: i agree, "stylistic acceptance of the fact naming predicates with ?" is really very "simple" and yet a very good idea. in fact it wouldn't matter if cl's "p" approach was the standart naming in all predicates, but i think there are pretty much exceptions 05:26:24 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:49 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:26:51 I mean, C-type code (normal "C" call stack) 05:26:52 Personally, I think that foo? is as horrible as foo-p 05:26:56 hefner: re: ?-predicates: I could honestly be happy enough with a less complex usage of -p 05:27:02 I'd rather have (predicate foo) 05:27:05 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:07 guys, I'm importing a library, ie (require 'xmls), then running a function contained in it, ie (parse "foo"), and I'm getting an error saying that the function is undefined. what could be wrong? 05:27:09 i.e. always -p, never justp 05:27:40 Zhivago: what if we had general compound function names, then we could call it (predicate foo). Imagine the possibilities! 05:28:05 -!- chessguy_work is now known as chessguy 05:28:37 hefner: Well, general name spaces. -- (predicate foo) (class foo) (function foo) (dynamic-variable foo) :) 05:28:43 ah-ha 05:28:47 lisp-6? 05:28:51 ;) 05:29:10 lisp-(the bignum)? 05:29:11 CL has even planned for this future, by stubbornly refusing to do anything useful with forms in the name position 05:29:39 Apart from lambda forms. 05:29:54 (setf foo)? <-- 05:29:54 indeed, an exception I'm quite fond of. 05:30:18 nm, I understood wrong 05:30:23 syko: hefner refers to constructs like ((a b) c) 05:30:32 Zhivago: yeah, I got that a bit late :) 05:30:51 it makes a bit of sense, though... 05:30:57 no wait, it doesn't 05:31:03 Which? 05:31:39 then you might make special reader syntax for (predicate foo), analogous to (function foo). ?foo or whatever other godawful syntax you can come up with. 05:31:54 Zhivago: I was thinking about that "lisp-1 vs lisp-2" page, and how it talked about how making you do (funcall foo ..) is nice because it gives you a nice optimization 05:32:12 hefner: $foo ;) 05:32:14 syko: What nice optimization? 05:32:23 Is there any library people use to make a GET request? 05:32:43 Zhivago: "it's either a lambda or a (function foo)" 05:32:44 I guess 05:32:49 konr: There are a couple -- have a look on common-lisp.net or where-ever the directory is. 05:33:10 I don't see where the 'nice optimization' is coming from. 05:33:36 Zhivago: that's what the article seems to have been hinting at 05:34:08 Still not seeing the 'nice' or 'optimization' bit. 05:34:21 heh 05:34:35 http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html This is what I was referring to, but I don't really understand most of this... 05:36:09 -!- fUD [n=bbills@apnnew9.lnk.telstra.net] has left #lisp 05:36:16 roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:50 sykopomp, what are you talking about? "compilers can ... assume that function cells ... contain functions in Lisp2"? 05:37:16 what has that got to do with funcall? 05:37:49 ilitirit: disregard everything I say, I am clearly mad. Something is wrong with my head tonight :\ 05:38:59 syko: That article mostly talks about how CL's approach is crap compared to scheme's, except for the notational issues. 05:41:13 And, I guess either doing type inference or testing that a variable really is bound to a function -- but you have to test that it's bound in CL anyhow, and testing for a tag is probably not significantly more expensive. 05:41:25 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["sleep"] 05:41:51 -!- dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:42:22 If you think of symbol-value and symbol-function as being CL's linkage mechanisms it may make more sense. 05:43:40 well, if you think of symbols as being the linkage mechanism, and symbol-value and symbol-function as being how you access linked to variables and functions, that is ... 05:44:03 Since they bridge the gaps between lexical domains. 05:45:36 I don't suppose there's a lisp beginner channel? 05:45:44 cl-gardeners? 05:46:01 justeco: You've found it. Trial by fire. We also eat our young. 05:46:04 justeco: #cl-gardeners is sort of like that. This place isn't exactly newbie-hostile. 05:46:21 sykopomp: Hey! We've got a reputation to uphold. 05:46:33 You can ask beginner questions here, but try to make them intelligent. :) 05:46:41 I'm just reading and feeling a bit out of my depth... and I have been programming for a decade (well, off and on). 05:46:43 tmh: -I- am still terrified of this channel sometimes. 05:47:02 but that's because I'm still a newbie :P 05:47:34 I just somehow got it in my head that I want to be able to tail a file and maybe feed data from it into rrdtool... 05:47:41 But I can't seem to think it out. 05:47:59 So I was wondering if there any any examples someone could point me to. 05:48:06 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-239-4.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:14 pinterface1 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:15 But now I think it may be a bit mundane of a problem... 05:48:21 justeco: Well, tailing a file means to capture the last N elements of a stream? 05:48:56 Zhivago: Well, I thought I could just keep looking for EOF, and doing nothing other than checking agaion if I get there... 05:49:29 but if suddenly I am no longer at eof, deal with the data until I am there again. Does that make sense? 05:50:13 Not sure what would happen when the log file is rotated, though... 05:50:33 Then the file will stop getting longer. :) 05:51:01 I've downloaded a package, ie trivial-http, yet I have no idea of how I can use it. Googling for it, it seems that there is no documentation, so I was wondering if there is a way to get an overview of the package, including what each function does 05:51:52 smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:17 You could read the source. 05:52:40 konr: If you're looking for some documentation, try Drakma 05:52:58 Most folks seem to just pause and then check for more lines... Maybe that's really the simplest thing, as long as you know exactly how far you were in the file before that. 05:53:31 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.68.107] has joined #lisp 05:53:54 might be some kind of race condition if the file rotates before you catch the tail end of it, though. 05:55:01 OK, I just got real chatty about nothing interesting... I'm going to go back to my lisp book now. 05:55:02 justeco: EOF isn't a place -- it is a condition caused by trying to read when at the end of the file -- in this case you're not reading, so your position in the file doesn't change. 05:56:23 -!- ejs [n=eugen@72-254-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:56:58 Zhivago: I would think I would just need to be aware of my position in the file, and if that position turns out to not be the end when I look again, grab more data until it is again. Then, if suddenly my position stops existing, assume file rotation. I wonder what that does to a file handle... Maybe I'm not thinking lispy. 05:57:15 *hefner* realizes he can write a presentation translator to customize the behavior of the select gesture according to context 05:57:39 *justeco* thinks he would need more beer to understand that sentence. 05:58:37 *justeco* screw this, I'm going to go watch porn 05:58:52 oops 05:59:22 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 06:00:31 -!- vande [n=sdfpme@59.36.186.252] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:00:35 huangjs [n=huangjs@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 06:02:40 hi huangjs 06:02:48 hi ilitirit 06:03:40 -!- pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:04:57 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 06:08:47 JohnnyL [i=IHadToWr@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 06:16:00 beer? in the morning? 06:16:04 :-) 06:16:26 vande [n=sdfpme@59.36.186.252] has joined #lisp 06:19:13 -!- JohnnyL [i=IHadToWr@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 06:21:08 -!- vande [n=sdfpme@59.36.186.252] has quit [Client Quit] 06:24:26 ASau` [n=user@77.246.230.154] has joined #lisp 06:26:19 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:28:05 chessguy_ [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:10 guys, with trivial-http, I've managed to get the stream to a page. How can I read it at once? (read stream) returns a couple of characters, only 06:28:13 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:29:23 I can do (read streams) until I get nil, I suppose, but isn't there a way to get the entire thing at once? 06:29:29 pwnd 06:29:41 tessier [n=treed@unused-105-40-113.ixpres.com] has joined #lisp 06:30:39 TOTAL: 751 assertions passed, 0 failed, 0 execution errors. 06:30:52 That means it's bed time. Booya! 06:31:57 clhs read-sequence 06:31:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_seq.htm 06:32:07 konr: if it's a sequence, that works 06:32:23 i use that with drakma, at least 06:34:00 -!- coffeemug [n=coffeemu@ool-457219b3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:38:07 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 06:38:15 What is it "it" that you think it needs to be a sequence? 06:38:36 konr: Never use READ (or READ-FROM-STRING) on untrusted input data. 06:40:08 tcr: hmmm, what is the default way of dealing with it, then? 06:40:38 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.48.233] has quit [Success] 06:41:37 konr: what ququq said, READ-SEQUENCE 06:47:52 splittist [n=dmurray@146-85.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:47:52 A challenge with making a remotely-usable CPS-transformer for lisp code isn't unwind-protect, or inter-transfrormed function calling, or even detecting the capabilities of the caller - it's interaction with libraries that make use of (incredibly useful) dynamic scoped variables for their contexts. These can be detected or predeclared; but the fact remains that any call made to a subfunction, in any trampolined code thunk, has to reb 06:47:52 ind *every* dynamic variable it knows about. 06:47:55 morning 06:48:18 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:48:55 Anything resembling proper support moves the performance from murderously bad to. . . something a bunch worse. 06:54:21 drwhen [n=d@216-67-73-247-rb1.fai.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:10 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:56:00 Modius, is this something you've actually run up against? 06:56:12 i use cl-cont and it's performance is not good, but not for this reason 06:57:20 I'm about to. 06:57:24 chessguy [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:43 My next goal. I have intra-function calls and all that jazz working, multi-value, blah blah 06:58:05 Trampolining (0 stack growth) option 06:58:28 Oh - and cloneable continuations (mutable variables detected statically) 06:58:31 -!- chessguy_ [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:58:47 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:58:57 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:59:23 unwind-protect out of blocks and tagbodys 07:00:27 adityo [n=adityo@59.183.33.197] has joined #lisp 07:01:46 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 07:01:59 Actually, after whining I may have a plan to make the dynamic variables speed-viable. The bottom-level trampolining loop thingy gets provided a function that can be called into to make a context with the thing bound: (lambda (val run-in) (let ((**some-special** val)) (funcall run-in)))) 07:04:42 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-43acbec4f9fffe20] has joined #lisp 07:06:46 hi, i need to dispose a heap vector in ccl. dispose-heap-ivector needs the heap array as parameter but i prefer to use the array pointer. shouldn't this be possible ? 07:14:05 mega1 [n=mega@62.112.214.171] has joined #lisp 07:16:37 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-156-98.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 07:17:32 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 07:18:07 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 07:18:11 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 07:18:54 dialtone [n=dialtone@93-34-8-7.ip47.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:20:03 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-239-4.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:21:01 roidrage: Better try #ccl 07:21:32 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-142-10.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:44 thanks f/hint, solved already! 07:22:16 #lisp is ideal for sbcl-specific questions, less so for other implementations :) 07:22:54 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 07:23:10 k, then I unfortunately can't show off with my cl-opengl-based texture generator :) 07:23:18 is :element-type 'octet an standard CL type or is it defined by flexi-streams or sbcl or what? 07:23:25 is there a more intelligent way to generate a random file name than combinating a very improbable name with a random seed, ie aardvark-1aeb2? 07:24:35 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:24:52 konr: do you want a random file name, or a file name not currently existing, or an open file stream to a guaranteed new file? 07:25:02 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.68.107] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:25:06 roidrage: Oh, sure you can! 07:25:29 (in the second or third cases, use your lisp's bindings to tempnam(3) and mkstemp(3) respectively) 07:25:30 Krystof: the last one 07:25:35 konr: (symbol-name (gen-temp))? 07:25:52 but it would intent a new symbol ;-( 07:26:01 no, no, no, no, no 07:26:19 it would also be deterministic, not random 07:26:27 what's gen-temp? 07:26:30 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@146-85.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:26:50 Krystof: stupid me, i confused random with unique. and it's gentemp stassats! 07:26:53 presumably a misspelling of gentemp 07:27:37 oh, i didn't know about gentemp either 07:27:58 "The function gentemp is deprecated." no wonder 07:28:05 konr: if this is a web app, you can appeal to the session handling stuff. hunchentoot's session IDs are computed fairly uniquely, taking IP, User Agent, time, a seed and a few other things into account. 07:28:29 (gentemp) won't give you unique filenames either. It'll give you a fresh symbol, sure 07:28:54 Krystof: that's why I said (symbol-name (gentemp)) :-) 07:29:07 splittist [n=dmurray@146-85.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:29:25 fusss: what if it already exists? 07:29:29 and you're clearly not getting it. Why should the name of the symbol made by gentemp be guaranteed not the name of a file on the filesystem? 07:30:08 stassats: (format nil "~a-~a" (symbol-name (gentemp)) (get-universal-time))) 07:30:26 is there trivial-mktemp? 07:30:27 well, that could also exist. meh, i should shuttup 07:31:28 cl-fad should have something like that 07:31:42 Ragnaroek [i=54a6696c@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-fc56bcc9311cd4db] has joined #lisp 07:31:44 (for name = (symbol-name (gentemp)) unless (probe-file name) return name) 07:32:07 stassats: That's not good enough. 07:32:10 races 07:32:27 You need something which looks at the filesystem, and possibly creates a file atomically 07:33:03 Krystof's FFI/sb-posix suggestion looks like the best 07:34:01 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:38:22 hmmpf, a bad combination of flexi-streams and closure-html/cl-html-parser is consistently killing my (long unsupported 1.0.19) sbcl on win32 07:43:36 it also crashed LW (which has a debugger restart showing x86 registers! nice :-) 07:46:51 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 07:48:57 consistency is good! 07:49:33 adityo_ [n=adityo@59.183.33.197] has joined #lisp 07:50:08 Modius_ [n=Modius@99.179.102.104] has joined #lisp 07:50:16 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:51:22 lichtblau: it really boggles the mind. i narrowed it down to three operations; open file, read into buffer, convert buffer from something to utf-8 .. that far succeeds. as soon as i bring any html parser routine, say, (parse buf (make-lhtml-parser)) it crashes. 07:51:27 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 07:53:21 what optimization is the code compiled with 07:53:22 ? 07:53:23 It's suspicious that LispWorks also crashes for you. Have you tried tracking down all DECLAREs and DECLAIMs for low SAFETY? 07:53:27 it locks sbcl at 98% CPU use 07:53:55 first I would set speed 1, space 1, debug 2, safety 3 07:54:06 for all the involved code! 07:54:39 I wouldn't suspect problems in the user code if it was just SBCL/win32. If you have crashes with SBCL/linux or with LispWorks though, the declaration is definitely worth checking. 07:54:54 you should be able to stay in Lisp and find the offending thing 07:55:06 if you remove the two with-open-files, it's pretty much four lines. let me test it at a console window without emacs 07:55:46 lisp: in the case on LW, the offending "code" is (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :closure-html) something else is wrong. 07:55:51 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:56:08 Notice that in SBCL you can restrict the compiler's policy _without_ having to touch all the declares. 07:56:53 another option is that it is not the code that is 'crashing', but the GC 07:57:24 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@81-174-50-108.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 07:57:39 there would be some memory used, that is already 'freed' - or something 07:58:20 often stack allocated or foreign memory 07:58:58 tcr: restricting the compiler policy is a useful feature 08:00:42 boing boing 08:01:06 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:14 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:01:43 addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 08:02:36 -!- adityo [n=adityo@59.183.33.197] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:03:29 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-239-4.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:27 -!- adityo_ [n=adityo@59.183.33.197] has quit ["leaving"] 08:05:20 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 08:06:11 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 08:06:24 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-231-13.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:06:39 pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 08:06:55 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-69-154-8-40.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:07:05 my problem looks like one of conversion; stuff is changing from base-string, to simple-vector to (unsigned-byte 8) 08:07:34 something is doing double utf-8 conversion 08:08:43 topo_ [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has joined #lisp 08:09:01 -!- topo [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:09:54 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:10:01 good morning 08:10:25 fusss: does the whole Lisp crash, or do you get the usual Lisp debugger? 08:11:56 sbcl does 98% cpu use and i have to kill it. LW throws me in an unusual GUI restart that looks like the mozilla and MS crash reporters. it has x86 registers and says it died while forking a background process. 08:12:33 any body in with Trac-reset-foo? 08:12:38 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 08:12:44 Trac needs to be kicked again. 08:12:54 *ehu`* would do it, if he knew how. 08:17:25 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:18:47 ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-133-159.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 08:19:36 two consecutive evaluations of (read-sequence buffer file) return two different values. the first one returns the number of elements read, the second one returns 0. 08:20:08 do i need to manually rewind the read point? a la fseek? 08:20:37 even when I do (read-sequence buffer file :start 0) I still get 0 08:20:53 start is 0 by default 08:21:24 fusss: Sure. you're looking for FILE-POSITION 08:21:31 fusss: :start is the index in the sequence 08:21:47 gaah, yeah :-D 08:22:15 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-43acbec4f9fffe20] has left #lisp 08:22:17 -!- pinterface1 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:22:40 cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 08:23:41 hmm, no setf file-position... that inconsistent CL 08:23:43 loxs [n=loxs@fw1.netmania-it.com] has joined #lisp 08:25:34 sort of. file-position isn't guaranteed to work, and has a meaningful return value. doesn't fit the setf mold. 08:26:10 HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 08:26:21 loz- [n=loz@119.166.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:26:23 -!- oso`pere1oso is now known as unhknown 08:26:43 luckily, position is both a noun and a verb. 08:29:06 Badger [i=badger@tremulous/player/badger] has joined #lisp 08:29:40 sorry gentlemen. i might have isolated the bug. it's something in windows; both skype and opera just crashed XD 08:29:47 brb 08:29:48 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-142-10.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 08:31:53 dear denizens, do you have phd topic ideas that may benefit lisp, sbcl? 08:32:37 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 08:32:39 vande [n=sdfpme@59.36.186.252] has joined #lisp 08:32:48 vinleod [n=vince@c-76-105-157-42.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:44:05 jao [n=jao@31.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:45:49 RT GC! 08:47:16 mega1: that is a very good question 08:47:25 RT GC may be a hard sell, if the gc algorithm is not exactly new 08:47:28 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-142-10.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:39 ..... 08:47:58 how irritating. 08:47:59 my only, far from original idea so far is lighweight threads and message passing 08:48:00 -!- Badger [i=badger@tremulous/player/badger] has left #lisp 08:48:33 incidentally, I would be very happy to receive applications to do a lisp-related PhD at Goldsmiths 08:49:14 or even some other kind of CS / software-engineering research using lisp as its expermental laboratory 08:50:07 integration of prototype- and other object-oriented paradigms within CLOS 08:50:33 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:50:55 hello 08:52:25 mega1: why are you asking? 08:52:47 I'm considering doing a phd now. 08:52:56 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:12 I have two areas of interest: AI and programming languages. 08:54:04 who can apply at goldsmiths? 08:54:14 anyone 08:54:35 it helps to have a recognized first degree and to be an EU citizen, but neither is strictly necessary 08:54:36 foreigners? 08:54:43 sure 08:54:49 most of my best friends are foreigners! 08:54:57 just don't bring swine flu 08:55:16 I have to visit my mexican friends in Spain soon :-) 08:56:33 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:58:25 droogie` [n=user@88.238.43.26] has joined #lisp 08:58:40 'security' is a trend 08:59:05 develop a secure Lisp and secure infrastructure 08:59:17 for internet services 08:59:25 get a Phd and get rich ;- 08:59:44 include some prover for verification, etc. 09:00:34 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-133-159.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:05:47 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 09:07:22 projections [n=p@88.235.101.2] has joined #lisp 09:07:36 yeah, proving programs secure is one of the topics advertised at my local uni 09:09:01 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 09:11:18 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-7091.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:11:48 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [Client Quit] 09:13:05 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [] 09:13:59 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 09:15:04 -!- jao [n=jao@31.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:16:30 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 09:16:47 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 09:16:53 -!- droogie [n=user@88.238.43.26] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:19:20 Xof: don't be afraid by swine flu: http://www.docteurwillem.fr/solution_nat/grippe_aviaire.php 09:21:05 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:21:17 This is a good thing that bugs be spread worldwide, so we can build our defenses woldwide. The only problem is that this increases the risk of a global epidemy, and for this we must colonize satelites and planets. 09:21:23 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.141.228.129] has joined #lisp 09:21:39 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:22:02 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 09:22:21 ManateeL` [n=user@119.141.228.129] has joined #lisp 09:22:51 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 09:24:35 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 09:29:07 mega1: compiler research is fun; do a tree-shaker for sbcl :-) 09:29:34 and make sure the win32 port is up to date .. for extra credit ;-) 09:29:57 if you take me a student ... 09:30:34 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:30:38 I'd fix the win32 port for a title or money. 09:31:35 how does "Champion" sound to you? :-P 09:32:53 rolly1975 [n=rory@193.108.78.132] has joined #lisp 09:33:20 how on earth do i find out which package introduces a certain keyword? 09:33:23 lispm_ [n=joswig@e177122113.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:33:35 you don't 09:33:49 :utf-8 and :octet are not standard CL symbols, where are they coming from? 09:34:12 yet they're honored by sbcl and LW 09:34:33 "honored"? 09:34:54 both accept those keywords as :external-formats 09:35:08 and :element-type respectively 09:35:13 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:35:22 sbcl accepts :octet?! 09:35:55 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 09:36:17 :element-type 'octet, yessir 09:36:31 i was wrong about it being a keyword though 09:36:45 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0C3A.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:36:49 anyways, external format names besides are implementation dependent extentions, and both obviously support utf-8 and call it by that name 09:37:00 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-238.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:37:06 -!- Tordek_ is now known as Tordek 09:37:18 -!- ManateeL` [n=user@119.141.228.129] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:37:29 (symbol-package 'octet)? 09:37:33 ajcc [n=adrian@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:38:41 anyways, i bet you have (DEFTYPE OCTET () '(UNSIGNED-BYTE 8)) somewhere 09:39:48 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@146-85.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["Reboot time"] 09:40:07 ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.101.94] has joined #lisp 09:40:28 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:42:03 younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 09:43:13 dys`` [n=andreas@p5B317380.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:43:28 -!- vande [n=sdfpme@59.36.186.252] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:43:37 thehcdreamer_ [n=thehcdre@81.174.49.38] has joined #lisp 09:43:43 -!- thehcdreamer_ [n=thehcdre@81.174.49.38] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:44:29 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@81-174-50-108.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:45:40 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:47:48 -!- sepult_ [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-31-170.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 09:48:31 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.141.228.129] has quit [Success] 09:49:05 -!- dys` [n=andreas@p5B3153A9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:49:08 -!- lispm [n=joswig@f054052170.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:50:44 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-31-170.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:52:33 -!- cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:56:41 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 10:01:19 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 10:02:57 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 10:03:07 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:03:51 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:04:02 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:05:44 ltriant [n=none@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 10:06:05 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@99.179.102.104] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:06:24 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-66-143-167-0.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:28 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-239-4.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:08:54 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 10:12:56 mega1: fixing the win32 port will get you the title of "Jedi Knight" 10:14:59 Even Champions and Jedi Knights need motivation :-) 10:16:01 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 10:17:57 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-219-152-214.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:18:19 -!- projections [n=p@88.235.101.2] has left #lisp 10:18:23 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a6696c@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-fc56bcc9311cd4db] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 10:18:39 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:18:40 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:19:24 mega1: if you'd fix the win32 port for money, maybe we should talk. We can't offer significant amounts of money, and certainly not a PhD to go with it. But perhaps you're available for smaller tasks occasionally? (If so, we should probably take this to /msg). 10:21:54 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 10:25:27 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-66-143-167-0.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:29:04 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:25 vande [n=sdfpme@59.36.186.252] has joined #lisp 10:49:43 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 10:50:51 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-142-10.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 10:53:58 rumbleca_ [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 10:55:17 splittist [n=dmurray@146-85.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 10:55:49 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-138-96.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:57:34 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:59:40 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 11:00:36 -!- aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has quit ["KVIrc 3.2.6 Anomalies http://www.kvirc.net/"] 11:01:21 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:01:34 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:05:10 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@p76-n239.kthopen.kth.se] has joined #lisp 11:07:14 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [] 11:13:41 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 11:15:35 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:30 -!- rumbleca [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:19:22 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:28:09 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:29:57 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 11:36:06 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:40:27 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:42:45 voodoo-child [n=nevermin@unaffiliated/oshamahue] has joined #lisp 11:43:43 hi! what does it means top level instences of a given atom from a given list 11:43:52 -!- pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 11:43:56 resteven [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 11:44:19 -!- resteven is now known as PissedNumlock 11:45:20 -!- HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:45:32 voodoo-child: That makes little sense? 11:45:34 voodoo-child: makes no sense to me. 11:46:09 in a common lisp context, top-level refers to the position of forms in source code. 11:46:23 bobf_ [n=bob@host81-151-249-164.range81-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:46:44 seems to be missing some context. Perhaps "the function (FOOBAR atom list) removes top level ..." 11:46:58 the question is write a lisp function that deletes all top-level instances of a given atom from a given list 11:47:09 topo [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has joined #lisp 11:47:13 homework exercise? 11:47:15 i think voodoo-child means "immediate children" 11:47:38 antifuchs, yep 11:47:55 tell your instrutor to make more sense (-: 11:48:09 it means that if you must delete As, then should result (A B (A B)) in (B (A B)) 11:48:19 not the instructor but the author of the book 11:48:28 What book is it? 11:48:28 that is, elements in nested lists are not deleted 11:48:38 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:48:54 nikodemus: That actually makes sense :) 11:48:56 consepts of programming languages-sebesta 11:48:57 -!- loxs [n=loxs@fw1.netmania-it.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:48:58 what nikodemus proposes sounds good 11:49:05 only in the "topmost" "spine" -- but children and parents are better terms 11:49:34 i see 11:49:37 thanks 11:50:13 voodoo-child: You can't use REMOVE I suppose? 11:50:29 divz [n=divz@125.99.120.106] has joined #lisp 11:50:47 i don't know yet 11:50:51 :) 11:51:21 voodoo-child: (remove 'a '(a b (a b) a b)) I mean. 11:51:38 point of the excercise is to learn how the wheel works -- and normally you need to build one to understand it 11:51:38 i have to write the function 11:51:54 so using REMOVE would be counterproductive, even if allowed 11:51:55 sohum [n=sohum@unaffiliated/sohum] has joined #lisp 11:51:56 oh great fun. 11:52:04 um. trac.common-lisp.net seems to be down 11:52:07 voodoo-child: What language does the book use? 11:52:28 sohum: Yes, that was moaned about by ehu already. drewc seems to be sleeping though. 11:52:34 tcr let me see 11:52:40 sohum: You could mail gwking. 11:52:44 tcr: fair enough 11:52:55 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:59 tcr: odds are they'll fixit by tomorrow? 11:53:19 Is anyone here writing that lisp book for O'Reilly? 11:54:04 Isn't that "lisp" book about clojure? 11:54:43 sohum: Not if none reports it. The very proper way to send a short note to rt@c-l.net 11:55:09 http://oreilly.com/catalog/9781593272005/ 11:55:15 tcr: Oh. I'm referring to the book O'Reilly said they might consider after ilc. 11:55:32 CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.118.88] has joined #lisp 11:55:33 that the one? 11:55:43 tcr, it talks about scheme and prolog in a little bit detail. it just mentions the other languages.book is not for learning languanges. it talks about programing languages in general. 11:55:52 nikodemus: Wow. 11:56:09 voodoo-child: Where does that exercise come from then? 11:56:50 tcr, the book coveres scheme but we learned common lisp 11:57:02 Bleh another introductory book, how boring 11:57:43 cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-177-99-140.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:47 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:58:01 hello while making a xml-rpc connection, where can I provide the username & password ? 11:59:40 hm, actually, i don't think that's the one: " Publisher: No Starch Press" 12:03:24 "Land of Lisp brings the language into the real world, teaching Lisp by showing readers how to write ... a robot battle." 12:03:47 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-82-81-161-203.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:04:11 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 12:05:05 -!- sohum [n=sohum@unaffiliated/sohum] has left #lisp 12:05:32 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:06:29 yeah 12:08:39 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:09:08 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:09:51 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:10:33 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:10:41 younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 12:10:51 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:12:00 topo__ [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has joined #lisp 12:12:38 Jasko [n=tjasko@98.235.105.148] has joined #lisp 12:14:45 -!- topo_ [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:15:20 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-43acbec4f9fffe20] has joined #lisp 12:16:12 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-43acbec4f9fffe20] has left #lisp 12:18:51 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 12:19:16 Odin- [n=sbkhh@130.208.131.159] has joined #lisp 12:19:21 -!- addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 12:19:39 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:20:43 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:21:28 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:21:50 -!- topo [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:23:14 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:24 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-219-152-214.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:29:10 boccato [n=boccato@189.121.19.162] has joined #lisp 12:29:18 -!- boccato [n=boccato@189.121.19.162] has left #lisp 12:31:29 I'm looking forward to Rusty Johnson's presentation, once he gets back from his 'undisclosed location' - "call-with-extreme-prejudice: How CPS simplifies interfacing spy satellites to predator drones". 12:31:49 loxs [n=loxs@fw1.netmania-it.com] has joined #lisp 12:33:02 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:34:25 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit ["switching bank-accounts. again. fffffffffffffffuck"] 12:36:29 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:40:27 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 12:41:33 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@p76-n239.kthopen.kth.se] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 12:44:23 -!- topo__ [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:46:27 topo [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has joined #lisp 12:47:17 benny [n=benny@i577A253F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:48:48 puchacz [n=puchacz@87.194.5.99] has joined #lisp 12:49:46 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:52:22 -!- ltriant [n=none@202.136.38.162] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:52:31 -!- topo [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:52:33 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:52:45 topo [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has joined #lisp 12:53:06 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp143.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 12:53:24 gh7d395pi69wd [n=dsadsads@unaffiliated/gh7d395pi69wd] has joined #lisp 12:56:37 stassats`: here? 12:57:12 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 12:58:28 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 12:58:52 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp143.studby.uio.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:59:07 -!- loxs [n=loxs@fw1.netmania-it.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:59:11 Is it true that tail calls are never optimized in methods? 13:00:18 -!- loz- [n=loz@119.166.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:00:28 no 13:01:19 Good, Pascal Costanza made a claim to that effect. 13:01:33 I know 13:01:43 I have replied giving an example where a tail call is optimized 13:01:44 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633852.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 13:02:05 where is this? .. just curious 13:03:03 schoppen1auer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:03:22 on the newsgroup comp.lang.lisp 13:03:33 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 13:04:31 http://paste.lisp.org/display/79456 13:04:33 just triied it 13:04:34 tried* 13:04:35 ok 13:07:21 it's the compiler's business, surely? 13:07:37 (whether TCO-able things are optimised) 13:08:11 -!- schoppen1auer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:08:37 rsynnott: Yes, but the claim was that NO compiler did 13:08:45 *shrug* .. i used to think it was possible to determine accurately whether something would be TCO'ed, but i'm not so sure anymore .. i do the dissassemble thing 13:08:53 ..now 13:09:02 oudeis [n=oudeis@80.250.159.240] has joined #lisp 13:10:46 well, if nothing else, would it not seem likely that someone might have added it to one experimentally at some point in the past? :) 13:10:50 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:11:03 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:11:03 dtangren [n=dtangren@69.176.201.226] has joined #lisp 13:11:11 (some languages, like Python, actually never have TCO, but that is because the Dear Leader doesn't like it) 13:11:55 Normally if debug < speed a FUNCTION get's TCO'ed 13:12:45 In particular (declare (debug 3)) would turn TCO off 13:12:47 schoppen1auer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:13:38 deliana [n=deliana@ABordeaux-158-1-117-18.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:13:40 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 13:14:03 I realize though that I have not brought the same scruteny to bare on METHODS 13:14:46 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:14:53 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@69.176.201.226] has quit [Client Quit] 13:17:32 Also there is the issue of many functions doing mutual recursion. Last I checked only ACL did this optimation. (But that was a while ago.) 13:18:20 Dear #lisp citizens, you might be interested in to know that from now on there exists a multi-consumer/multi-producer thread pooling library for Common Lisp. (See http://cliki.net/patron for further details.) 13:18:26 mutual tail recursion? 13:18:43 is that actually common enough in idiomatic lisp that it would even be an issue 13:18:44 ? 13:18:49 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:19:15 -!- duende_inside [n=muggli@68.166.118.234] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:19:28 vy: oh, that looks quite useful 13:19:34 argh, no, github! 13:19:48 Yes, in a parser, for instance, you might use recursive decent. 13:20:39 rsynnott: You can just get the source tarball, which includes git tree as well, from http://www.students.itu.edu.tr/~yazicivo/files/patron.tar.gz 13:21:32 (only joking, really; I'm just a little concerned that bare github pages are replacing proper project sites, which feels like a giant leap backwards to me) 13:21:41 also, github can be really slow depending on time of day 13:22:12 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:45 younder didn't check very hard if he didn't find a Lisp other than ACL that did TCO for non-self calls or mutual recursion 13:25:05 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:19 lichtblau: I did, but as I said it was a while ago 13:25:50 -!- schoppen1auer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:25:55 lichtblau: These day's I am more lazy and merly ask here 13:26:08 right, because Python-the-compiler just started doing TCO a week ago 13:26:16 (not) 13:26:34 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 13:26:34 TCO has been there since the inception 13:26:46 THAT was not the issue 13:28:03 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:29:14 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@80.250.159.240] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:30:50 As you know TCO isn't in the ANSI spec so it is up to each implementer the DEGREE of support for TCO. 13:31:49 -!- cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:33:33 TCO optimizing mutual recusion means cluster's of recursive functions get ganged together. Which is something different. As it affects, say, you abillity to debug and trace. 13:34:17 I challenge you to find a CMUCL binary from the 1990s that doesn't do TCO in the situation you claim it doesn't. 13:35:19 yay, more stack allocation! 13:35:24 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:35:28 (for VECTOR) 13:35:51 and... less assembly! 13:36:21 I have just recently started using SBCL as my primary compiler, but I have used CUMCL, Corman, ACL and LispWorks before. 13:37:12 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Client Quit] 13:38:00 nikodemus: Does SBCL actually produce compiler notes when there's a dynamic-extent declaration but it couldn't actually stack-allocate the thing? 13:38:13 lichtblau: This is not a competiton, from my perspecive, just a fact finding mission. 13:38:51 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B1BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:59 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:39:12 nope 13:39:53 s/CUMCL/CMUCL/ 13:39:58 it's not a matter of it being a competition. it's a matter of you, as usual, making claims that are objectively untrue 13:40:29 I'll add that to the bugtracker as a wished feature 13:40:30 Except I have not made any claims 13:41:13 -!- kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:42:09 yah, it would be good 13:42:31 in this particular case you made the claim that only ACL could do TCO on mutually recursive functions. it doesn't really matter why you made that claim, could be an accident, a simple misunderstanding, malice, incompetence, etc 13:42:33 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.101.94] has quit ["this is not a quit message"] 13:42:34 topo_ [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has joined #lisp 13:42:37 jsnell: But being a SBCL developer and all, perhaps you can point me to the source (yes, I have it) location of the TCO optimation 13:42:40 vy: itu? 13:43:28 jsnell: It's in the ACL documentation 13:43:37 the problem is that you continue making these claims on a number of subject, and are consistently wrong. and continue doing so even when asked to be a bit more careful with the facts 13:44:35 perhaps you could just answer the question instead of going on one of your rants 13:45:39 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 13:45:54 HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 13:45:55 -!- topo [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:46:12 Joreji [n=nah@41-218.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:46:50 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit [] 13:46:53 Who knows maybe I will do you a favor an write a proper peephole optimizer for SBCL.. 13:46:53 pkhuong: i figured out how to make intialization of stack-allocated arrays efficient 13:48:21 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 13:50:21 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.118.88] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:50:54 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:50:55 nikodemus pasted "dx vector initialization" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79460 13:51:31 ffx [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:53:23 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@130.208.131.159] has quit [] 13:54:13 -!- ffx [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:54:30 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:54:56 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-138-96.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:55:28 mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:55:29 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:55:33 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@138.246.23.5] has joined #lisp 13:55:43 sure, just like you ported sbcl threads to freebsd in a matter of days 13:56:42 Sigh, the source loaction of TCO please? 13:56:43 -!- droogie` [n=user@88.238.43.26] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:57:02 if you can't correctly write the two lines of code to test whether mutually recursive functions get TCO, I doubt you'll be contributing any CL code of any significance in any case 13:58:08 What is TCO exactly? google isn't really bringing anything up. 13:58:15 Never the less, are you capable of answering a direct question? 13:58:16 TDT: Tail-call optimization 13:58:28 TDT: or Total Cost of Ownership :D 13:58:53 dlowe: lol yeah, the 2nd one is what started coming up for me in google...thanks for the unabbreviated name, I can google that :) 13:59:35 I only want to READ it.. 14:00:13 So I will become less 'incompetent'.. 14:00:17 lol 14:01:40 Yeah, that's what I'm doing now is reading the wiki article on it 14:01:57 what do I have to gain by answering the simple straight question? you're still going to go on with your habit of not telling the truth for whatever reason 14:02:18 (but the answer is that it's not in any single place, and wouldn't be interesting anyway) 14:03:13 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 14:03:40 rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1279406049.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:03:45 droogie [n=user@88.238.43.26] has joined #lisp 14:03:56 It is interesting in the sence that it decribes EXACTLY what TCO does.. sigh, Now WHO exacly is being a moron here 14:04:28 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.48.233] has joined #lisp 14:05:29 Hmm, the tail-call optimization thing is interesting, but a bit confusing. 14:06:11 And more importantly ill defined in Lisp 14:07:25 Which is why each implementor needs to be spesific. 14:08:09 Or is that also a LIE.. 14:09:51 -!- roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 14:10:37 nikodemus: good stuff (: 14:12:11 HG` [n=wells@91.108.74.20] has joined #lisp 14:16:24 -!- ASau` [n=user@77.246.230.154] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:18:00 i think i can also make (MAKE-ARRAY N :INITIAL-CONTENTS (VECTOR-OR-LIST 0 1 ... N-1)) not suck 14:19:19 younder: Not ill defined, simply *not* defined 14:19:27 -!- Modius_ is now known as Modius 14:19:31 Agreed, only accepting a list is potentially inefficient 14:20:41 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:20:42 Modius_: which amounts to the same, as the behaviour at run time is implementation spesific 14:21:10 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 14:21:27 willb [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:21:48 Has major ramifications on control flow and restrictions on other features (particularly if you have to support it in interpreted mode) - a lot of guido's comments were kind of correct. 14:22:29 (Mentioning it as it's what started all the TCO talk) 14:23:54 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl096.nas932.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 14:25:17 erk [n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 14:25:35 Modius: I started it with by asking if a statement by Pascal Costanza on comp.lang.lisp that "methods never got TCO'ed" is true, and the answer is NO 14:25:53 _Dave2_ [i=Dave2@freenode/staff/dave2] has joined #lisp 14:26:11 -!- Dave2 [i=Dave2@freenode/staff/dave2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:26:24 -!- Ginei_Morioka [n=irssi_lo@78.112.56.72] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:26:31 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 14:26:39 Ginei_Morioka [n=irssi_lo@78.112.56.72] has joined #lisp 14:26:55 -!- Featureanini is now known as Buganini 14:27:00 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.69.135] has joined #lisp 14:27:08 well, I'm off, thanks for the heart to heart 14:27:13 younder: If you're looking for entertainment research another implementation-dependend behavior - whether a variable passed to a function - or a method - becomes eligible for collection the last time it is referenced. 14:27:49 -!- danlei` [n=user@pD9E2DCBF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:28:14 does tco vs. no tco ever have any significant implications for how higher-level apis end up? .. i mean; it seems like something that's nice to have while _implementing_ stuff, but at the api or "user call level"; do-this-for-me-please, it doesn't seem that interesting (?) 14:28:39 t_ [i=tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 14:28:43 -!- t [i=tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:29:04 -!- t_ is now known as t 14:29:28 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 14:29:44 nikodemus: surely in that paste we should constant-fold to 6 :-) 14:29:50 sepult_ [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-72-170.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:30:09 lnostdal: it's nice to be able to use co-routines sometimes. 14:30:13 v's type should be derived as (simple-array t (6)) and length should have a suitable transform 14:30:18 -!- sepult_ [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-72-170.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:30:28 -!- _Dave2_ is now known as Dave2 14:30:41 (not that I'm objecting to your work in general ;-) 14:30:43 yes -- but VECTOR isn't actually CL:VECTOR there since i hotpatched this 14:30:47 lnostdal: Isn't that a CPS, not TCO, issue? 14:30:57 so type derivation doesn't know about it 14:31:38 now if i could only figure out why "hash table not nstance" during cold init... 14:31:39 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-31-170.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:31:58 Xof: any thoughts on COMPILE-FILE percolating errors? 14:33:12 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-72-170.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:33:46 Xof: I don't see that reply on comp.lang.lisp 14:33:57 -!- vande [n=sdfpme@59.36.186.252] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:34:33 I didn't reply on comp.lang.lisp 14:35:11 nikodemus: I think probably errors should percolate and persist, if you see what I mean 14:35:12 perhaps you should? 14:36:24 yes 14:36:39 what advantage do you see in the percolation? 14:36:41 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:36:57 -!- voodoo-child [n=nevermin@unaffiliated/oshamahue] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:37:01 noticing that something has gone wrong 14:37:32 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:37:45 if the nested call handles the tertiary return value, and acts based on it, nothing has gone wrong 14:38:20 that is true but... empirically unlikely 14:38:26 (or that's at least my current feeling) 14:38:43 -!- mega1 [n=mega@62.112.214.171] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:38:49 also with-compilation-unit (:override nil) suggests that the errors should propagate outwards 14:39:00 that is, the inner compilation is still part of the outer compilation unit 14:39:22 hm 14:40:00 one of the problems with introducing more supported sbcl compilers is that they're so slow 14:40:07 come on, XCL 14:41:02 sigh.. 14:41:35 is xcl going anywhere? 14:41:45 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Success] 14:41:59 So the answer is that Xof is pulling your leg 14:42:27 c|mell [n=cmell@x250031.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 14:42:40 And JSNELL refuses to give the source location 14:42:54 In short a total waste of time 14:43:04 i think he said it was located many places, younder 14:43:31 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@student166-69.hampshire.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:43:31 -!- topo_ [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:43:41 is the caps an indicator of age or something? :) 14:43:41 Inostdat: He did, but WHAT locations 14:43:42 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 14:43:47 younder: so do everyone a favor, just leave 14:43:57 will do 14:44:13 oh we're still on this topic. 14:44:13 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:44:13 another game of crawl then. 14:44:53 don't you have any real work to do? 14:45:15 topo [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has joined #lisp 14:45:20 me? not really. bad cold. off of work today. 14:45:36 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 14:45:43 Greetings. 14:47:31 lnostdal@blackbox:~/programming/sbcl-git/src$ grep -r "tail call" * ;; younder .. i dunno 14:47:38 vande [n=sdfpme@59.36.186.252] has joined #lisp 14:47:56 that's how i find things if i can't use M-. or .. other .. things 14:48:29 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 14:48:51 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C60D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:03 addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 14:51:36 How about %-g in a Dired buffer? 14:51:39 How do I convert a number to string (given a base)? 14:53:35 antoszka: Is the base fixed? 14:53:54 princ-to-string 14:53:56 danieljors [n=danieljo@64.40.185.82] has joined #lisp 14:54:18 (let ((*print-base* 5)) (princ-to-string 666)) 14:54:25 for example 14:54:37 (write-to-string 5 :base 5) 14:54:51 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C60D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:55:10 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 14:55:18 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C60D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:03 In short all the *var* bit's of the spec are available as :arguments of the print functions. 14:56:08 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 14:56:22 no 14:57:35 Ok, the ones pertaining to printing obviously 14:57:37 a stassats`! 14:57:41 hypno [n=hypno@195.43.248.100] has joined #lisp 14:58:18 stassats`: I cannot reproduce the C-c C-c on (read) bug. What implementation is that? 14:58:28 mega1 [n=mega@pool-02108.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 14:58:37 tcr: helmut fixed that, i believe 14:58:37 and thanks for your work on slime-parse. 14:59:08 Good. 15:02:33 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:02:44 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:02:47 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1279406049.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:03:09 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 15:05:04 strange, aref with (vector fixnum 1000) declaration is slower than just on vector 15:05:31 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:05:44 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:05:47 svref 15:06:32 topo_ [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has joined #lisp 15:06:49 what's more strange, that it's actually little slower than without declarations at all 15:07:03 stassats`: not necessarily strange 15:07:05 -!- dysinger [n=tim@ip-64-139-9-115.dsl.sca.megapath.net] has quit [] 15:07:11 safety checks, stassats` ? 15:07:25 Vectors are all pointers. A array can have a :element-type 15:07:36 nikodemus: well, i don't expect it to be so 15:08:17 declarations often mean additional type checks need to be inserted if the compiler cannot deduce that the declaration will always be true 15:08:40 can you paste the code? 15:09:35 stassats` pasted "aref" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79464 15:10:10 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:10:15 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:10:26 Ahh, you want simple-array.. 15:10:31 wchogg [n=wchogg@216.165.144.151] has joined #lisp 15:10:50 no, i don't 15:12:09 so you want a resizeable array which can be reassosiated? 15:12:41 who told you that i want anything? 15:12:44 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:12:54 you code perhaps? 15:13:27 s/you/your/ 15:14:04 it's not a code, it's a test-case 15:15:24 -!- dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:15:52 sigh, it's still code 15:16:39 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87.194.5.99] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:16:54 rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151400.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:17:04 *_3b* would have guessed what he wants are declarations somewhere they can actually affect code generation 15:17:11 You can do syntacit equality using equal, you don't have to itterate over each element 15:17:19 syntactic 15:17:39 Dreaky [n=lfournie@salle202.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has joined #lisp 15:18:03 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 15:18:12 stassats`: The other question is have you profiled? 15:18:36 *_3b* must be reading different code from everyone else 15:18:39 tcr: 16:54 < antoszka> tcr: Yeah, just a simple 123 => "123" 15:18:49 tcr: I got lagged out, by my ISP. 15:19:30 <_3b> stassats`: try declaring inside the function instead of wrapping arguments in THE 15:20:03 it seems inline is the culprit, i think .. as soon as i remove the inline decl. it works .. maybe i'm being fooled by something here though .. 15:20:08 -!- Dreaky [n=lfournie@salle202.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 15:20:18 _3b: You're not, I'm just wondering if worrying about type declarations is appropriate at this stage. 15:20:31 <_3b> ah, i missed the inline part 15:20:35 lnostdal: without inline they are all slow 15:21:27 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-69-221.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:36 i put inline deliberately instead of writing 3 test functions with declarations inside 15:21:42 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-204-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:13 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 15:22:31 stassats`: I'm having problems with what exactly this test code is supposed to be doing. 15:22:37 Ragnaroek [i=54a67ad2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7304120279573f3a] has joined #lisp 15:22:55 and it's not part of my code, and i don't care much about it, i was just playing and came to that results 15:23:17 lol 15:23:41 stassats`: your're declaring them as potentially non-simple arrays 15:24:05 no shit 15:24:22 granted, it's not clear to me why VECTOR is faster than (VECTOR FIXNUM 5000), but still 15:24:29 wait a sec, i'll paste 15:24:29 nikodemus: aren't they potentially non-simple without declarations too? 15:24:30 -!- smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [] 15:25:10 ohnvm .. right :) 15:25:54 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:26:04 nop 15:26:09 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:26:18 :adjustable is nil by default 15:26:37 (type-of (make-array 10)) vs. (type-of (make-array 10 :adjustable t)) 15:26:39 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 15:27:11 lnostdal: well, that's runtime types, i'm talking about compile-time declarations 15:27:29 so it is, but unless you exlicity say what the linitations are it will use the most general case 15:27:55 explicitly 15:28:40 yes 15:29:07 obviously something funny is going on with transformations for hairy accessors 15:29:43 nikodemus annotated #79464 "simple-array fixnum (*)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79464#1 15:29:53 -!- topo [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:30:09 simple-array is fast, yes 15:30:45 -!- benreesman [n=ben@ip68-101-196-173.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [] 15:30:53 simple-vectors are faster 15:31:04 at least for access 15:31:22 tmh: (simple-array * (*)) is vector indeed 15:31:50 benreesman [n=ben@ip68-101-196-173.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:52 stassats`: then use svref as previously suggested 15:32:00 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 15:32:17 which is what i was implying 15:33:31 ok, stassats` .. i do not find it surprising that the non-declared case is faster though (it is able to find a better or faster type decl. by it self) .. but what nik. mentions is a bit weird 15:34:08 i don't want to make it faster! i want (vector * 5000) and (vector fixnum 5000) behave the same 15:34:15 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 15:34:23 too bad 15:34:42 lnostdal: yeah, it's actually a little slower, not two times slower, so yes, i'm no more surprised too 15:35:05 The latter is a potential Bignum 15:35:18 guille_ [n=guille_@106.Red-83-39-171.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:22 so checks have to be in place 15:35:42 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.171.31] has joined #lisp 15:35:46 stassats`: Behave the same in what sense? (Point to the logs if this has been covered.) 15:36:02 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:36:11 tmh: have comparable speed 15:36:37 stassats`: like i said "obviously something funny is going on with transformations for hairy accessors" 15:37:30 nikodemus: i saw that, yes, i was trying to explain what i wanted in the first place 15:38:53 Then you need to be a lot more explicit about your types 15:39:55 sorry 15:40:22 nikodemus: should i post it too launchpad? 15:40:49 i have a reduced test case, no need 15:41:05 stassats`: Sorry I can't help, I need more context for the problem. What you're trying to do doesn't really make sense to me. 15:41:20 (i'll make it a bug if i can't fix it easily) 15:42:00 I's not a bug 15:44:53 i noticed also, that (coerce *vector* 'simple-base-string) is slower than (map-into (make-string (length *vector*)) #'identity *vector*) when *vector* is declared is simple 15:45:52 it has the same speed without declarations, but map-into is slower, which suggests that coerce doesn't use type information well 15:46:17 glad you have sumitted to 'my' side of the fource ;) 15:46:41 lol 15:47:21 antoszka_ [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 15:47:27 proq` [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 15:48:01 -!- divz [n=divz@125.99.120.106] has quit ["leaving"] 15:48:24 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 15:49:10 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:49:18 stassats`: It is dynamic 15:49:51 what? 15:50:03 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:50:09 -!- antoszka_ [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Client Quit] 15:50:11 NO type information at compile time 15:50:22 dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:36 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:10 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has joined #lisp 15:51:35 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:37 -!- jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has quit [Client Quit] 15:51:52 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has joined #lisp 15:53:10 -!- benreesman [n=ben@ip68-101-196-173.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [] 15:53:38 by all means do a 'disasseble' 15:54:10 a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. 15:54:32 smolyn [n=smolyn@76.77.66.100] has joined #lisp 15:55:16 -!- smolyn [n=smolyn@76.77.66.100] has quit [Client Quit] 15:55:51 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:58:02 Any ABCL developer present? 15:58:51 isn't there just the one? 15:58:56 that finn, jsnell 15:59:35 younder: Why the fuck can't you keep your mouth shut? Are you this annoying in real life, too? 16:00:14 ? 16:00:15 Or at least check if what you're about to say is factually true. 16:00:42 jsnell is not a SBCL develoer? 16:00:51 You need glasses. 16:00:52 rsynnott: one active, and also a couple of less active 16:01:07 that's what svn log told me 16:02:00 I use 6 version control programs but prefer DARCS. why? 16:02:15 sigh 16:02:21 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:02:22 stassats`: the coerce and map-into construct objects of different types (in your example) 16:02:23 (subtypep (type-of (make-string 10)) '(simple-base-string 10)) ; => NIL, T 16:02:23 (subtypep (type-of (make-string 10)) '(simple-array character (10))) ; => T, T 16:02:23 is this a riddle? 16:02:28 in sbcl, that is 16:02:55 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:21 people talking to invisible people, wierd 16:03:23 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-69-221.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:03:45 That's usenet for you 16:03:55 I wonder who the lucky person in Ednbrgyq is 16:04:42 Just like I wonder who can finally spell Edinburgh 16:05:21 i found the problem: we do a really stupid transform for hairy accessors if we have the element type available 16:05:38 Ni'l gaolainn agaibh. 16:05:40 looks more like source damage then a thinko to me 16:05:42 konr` [n=user@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 16:05:51 -!- konr` [n=user@201.82.139.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:07:38 nikodemus: adding element-type 'base-char doesn't change things much 16:09:06 Which part of the simple vector bit didn't you understand 16:09:17 besides that map-into got even faster 16:10:11 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:10:35 It uses more memory 32 bit's per byte, but it is faster 16:11:09 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o drewc 16:11:15 milanj [n=milan@93.86.115.154] has joined #lisp 16:12:14 or 64.. 16:12:14 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:56 younder: if you're going to keep spewing nonsense, you're going to do it elsewhere ;) 16:12:57 kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 16:13:11 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:18 pardon? 16:13:45 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:13:45 younder <- Bot, has to be. 16:13:49 a simple vactor contains POINTERS 16:13:55 vector 16:14:22 Hej drewc! People have been moaning about trac being down. 16:14:37 so there are in whatever adress range the system accepts 16:15:02 tcr: nobody ever moans about trac being up besides me :( 16:15:06 that is not NONSENSE 16:15:56 was younder always this obnoxious? I thought I remembered him being benignly (if profusely) clueless, but not downright rude. 16:16:22 I am not rude 16:16:34 hefner: It's the end of the month, he ran out of his meds. 16:16:36 hrmn 16:16:36 to my knowlege 16:16:46 Hazed, yes 16:16:56 mood-swings, perhap? He used to be more reasonable, certainly 16:17:23 it has been a tiresome morning in here, sho'nuff. 16:17:26 younder: Euphemism aside, you're annoying because you speak up without prior thought. 16:17:33 younder: see the +o next to my name? that means don't question me... please put a lid on it. 16:17:52 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:18:00 What the... 16:18:33 Is there a function analogous to cdr, that when applied to '(1 2 3 4 5 6) returns '(1 2 3 4 5)? 16:18:43 The squiggle in front of @drewc is a sheriff's badge. 16:18:44 butlast 16:18:50 konr: BUTLAST 16:18:50 thanks! 16:18:52 konr: It's BUTLAST, but you rarely need that. 16:19:09 konr: Look into NTH and NTHCDR, you'll probably use those more. 16:19:27 konr: Not directly applicable here though. 16:19:31 konr: if you're reaching for butlast, you're probably doing something backwards :) 16:20:30 sellout [n=greg@63.107.91.105] has joined #lisp 16:20:42 there is also nbutlast 16:20:50 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:20:55 yes, without a single line of source you have started rewriting the code.. 16:21:38 -!- rolly1975 [n=rory@193.108.78.132] has quit ["The computer fell asleep"] 16:21:52 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-12-62.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:22:29 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 16:22:48 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-8-114.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:24:05 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@146-85.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["youndzer!"] 16:25:49 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:28:57 benreesman [n=ben@asa01-ext.utc.backmo.com] has joined #lisp 16:30:02 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:30:07 doxtor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-9-108.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:31 hello 16:32:56 -!- benreesman [n=ben@asa01-ext.utc.backmo.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:33:09 benreesman [n=ben@asa01-ext.utc.backmo.com] has joined #lisp 16:33:51 gmorning kami- 16:34:54 hello kami-sama 16:35:10 fe[nl]ix: kami-sama ? 16:35:25 :D 16:35:36 *kami-* heard kami-leon before 16:35:43 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:53 and of course kami-kaze 16:36:23 *kami-* also likes camisole (des fous) 16:36:35 heh 16:36:47 enough off topic talk 16:36:49 anybody using pythononlisp or clpython or any other package to integrate python code with CL ? 16:37:00 I want to remote control openoffice 16:37:12 and as I understand, pyuno is the way to go 16:37:42 I looked at clpython, but it wasn't stable 16:37:50 it's not too hard to implement URP in Lisp, so that you can remote control openoffice directly from Lisp over a pipe 16:38:00 seemed to cack on any reasonably large program. 16:38:26 (does clpython support FFI stuff now? The Python UNO stuff is just calling out to the C++ library AFAIK.) 16:39:07 lichtblau: I have very limited time and want to slap together some python code stolen from the internet 16:39:22 cl-uno would take too much time 16:39:32 is the code compatible with python 1.5.x? 16:39:41 you might get some traction. 16:39:46 no 16:39:57 Fade: 1.5 ? 16:40:09 Fade: 1.5 ? 16:40:17 *hefner* is faced with that age old dilemma, whether to let CLIM redisplay things or revert to his usual lower level output record wrangling 16:40:20 the python preceeding the 2.x line. 16:40:30 Fade: I doubt it 16:40:30 assuming we're talking about python the language, and not python the compiler. 16:40:37 Fade: What kind of problems were you encountering? 16:42:00 *lichtblau* is glad his only choice these days is whether to implement a paintEvent method or just use QGraphicsView, which simply rocks compared to output records 16:42:16 kami-: can you remote control OO via Java? 16:42:19 code containing decorators and comprehensions was failing outright, as I recall. 16:42:26 lichtblau: if only some elegant combination of the two approaches were possible! 16:43:04 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.48.233] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:44:09 drewc: yes, that'd be also possible 16:44:38 ccl has some sort of java integration these days 16:44:43 as does abcl, of course :) 16:45:22 Xof: If you're trying to get me to write a CLIM-Qt backend or something insane like that, I'll have to disappoint you. 16:45:28 heh 16:45:36 someone else could, of course 16:45:45 my app has been developed in sbcl only and never run on any other implementation. I'm reluctant to switching. 16:45:53 by writing CommonQT, you may be an enabler :) 16:46:22 Fade: yep, decorators in particular are a new invention 16:46:25 (2.4, I think) 16:46:26 please, no. "Enabler of yet another McCLIM backend". Not a badge I need. 16:46:35 I'd like an ESA-style thing for Qt though. 16:47:31 god, you're almost as depressing as lemonodor 16:48:04 bah, I've been corrupted by git 16:48:07 I almost typed cvs commit -a 16:48:26 alias cvs=git 16:48:39 Hah. 16:48:40 in this instance that wouldn't have helped very much 16:49:52 kami-: there is a few lisp->java gateways.. JFLI and FOIL come immediatly to mind. 16:50:42 drewc: how stable are they? can I run them in a production environment? 16:51:00 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:51:19 hmm, it would in principle be practical to embed python via CFFI 16:51:24 saikat [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 16:51:55 python is designed to support such embedding, so that tracks. 16:52:10 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 16:52:18 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:52:18 I'll work on clpython the time comming. Which will perhaps include writing special Slime support for it. 16:52:24 -!- guille_ [n=guille_@106.Red-83-39-171.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:52:30 not even that difficult, especially if you only wanted to expose a few methods 16:53:05 kami-: if you need to rely on openoffice for your production environment, i think the stability of the Java FFI is the least of your worries :D. JFLI and FOIL were both rich hickeys projects, so i'm willing to bet they they are of high quality and quite stable. 16:53:10 Like PyEval() would be most useful. :) 16:53:11 somebody showed me IDLE last time, made a pretty good impression 16:53:42 rsynnott: you mean like python-on-lisp? 16:53:59 is python-on-lisp usable, then? 16:54:06 minion: python-on-lisp? 16:54:08 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``python-on-lisp''. 16:54:16 http://common-lisp.net/project/python-on-lisp/ 16:54:22 ah, I wasn't aware of python-on-lisp 16:54:28 yep, that looks like the sort of thing 16:54:41 minion: should have a redirect to cl-net for projects it doens't find on cliki. 16:54:42 what is ``it''? 16:54:45 (or I guess it's actually called PyRun_SimpleString().) 16:54:52 I was under the impression that python-on-lisp is something similiar like the many "slime-like vim" projects 16:55:03 (though if you just wanted access to a particular library you could do it manually, either) 16:55:16 Slime-like vim will happens omeday! 16:55:37 I have doubt. 16:55:51 danlei [n=user@pD9E2DCBF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:56 really depends on if anyone actually wants it 16:56:04 enough to write it 16:56:17 and finish it, and maintain it 16:56:33 -!- dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [] 16:57:04 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:57:17 Can anyone of you recommend a good resource to learn python from for me? 16:57:31 but yep, python integration into a C app is easy, so I see no reason that at least exposing methods through cffi would be a problem 16:57:46 tcr: the tutorial on the python site is reasonably good 16:58:07 the problem with a slime-like vim is simply that the authors need to use slime while writing it, and will then find that they didn't need vim ;) 16:58:09 it's not boring for people with prior programming experience? 16:58:22 if you wanted to do a high level API it could get somewhat tricky, managing the object lifetimes automatically and such. 16:58:41 tcr: norvig has a python for lispers thing somewhere 16:58:45 drewc: Unless you aren't going for slime-like, but rather a new beast that's more vimmy 16:59:10 herbieB: More power to you! 16:59:11 -!- proq` is now known as proq 16:59:35 tcr: nekthuth.com :) 16:59:45 herbieB: i've seen enough of them come and go now, but you don't have to take my word for it :) 17:00:50 herbieB: Nice. Can we point people who ask for this sort of thing to it? 17:01:05 tcr: Absolutely. 17:01:06 tcr: the python cookbook is a pretty good resource 17:01:16 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:01:18 herbieB: You don't use swank? 17:01:31 tcr: No. Though I borrowed most of the idea of the transport from swank. 17:01:45 tcr: A lot of swank looked to depend on the ability for emacs to do some of the heavy lifting. 17:01:56 tcr: Nekthuth is based on the concept that vim cannot do any lisp heavy lifting whatsoever. It's just a dumb editor. 17:02:20 herbieB: I think you hit the nail on the head, there. ;) 17:02:22 dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:52 herbieB: Some of it. You don't need to support everything. You should at least use SWANK-BACKEND. 17:02:52 Fade: Yeah, but lisp can do A LOT, and vim is really good at beign a dumb editor. And python is a really nice language to work with inside vim. 17:03:12 tcr: And I may someday. The other problem was that I am but an egg and swank is somewaht beyond me. 17:03:24 herbieB: Anyway if you got questions, don't hesitate. 17:03:43 tcr: I don't :) 17:03:49 herbieB: seems like a lot of work to avoid using emacs, but more power to you! :D 17:04:22 -!- danieljors [n=danieljo@64.40.185.82] has left #lisp 17:04:22 drewc: Nodnod. It's religion, and I don't pretend it isn't. I was brought up on vim, and most every command on vim does not require me to process a thought. 17:04:25 herbieB: If I were to do Slime from scratch, I'd also try to move lot of what's currently done by emacs out 17:04:48 It's duct-tape that just works in most cases 17:04:51 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B1BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:05:10 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:05:18 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-02aef5d4fb5041cd] has joined #lisp 17:05:18 herbieB: i'm personally quite glad nothing like that existed when i was discovering lisp.. i might never have made the switch, and i don't regret it one bit. I used to consider myself a vimmer, now i don't consider myself anything but a 'best tool for the job'er. 17:05:20 tcr: Nodnod. Also swank does not seem to enable plugins, which is something I really want to ahve. 17:05:48 herbieB: Well, we do have contribs now. 17:05:51 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17C819.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:05:57 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17F13D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:02 herbieB: but, that's me, and i still love vim.. just not for lisping. 17:06:25 drewc: Well, I hope that I can change that :) 17:06:37 i started using jed where I used to use vim. system administration, primarily. 17:06:44 Guys, I've created a function to download a web page and it is not downloading the entire thing... I'm not sure if my (loop) loop is wrong or if the connection dies before I download the page, can you take a look? http://paste.lisp.org/display/79469 17:06:47 although zile is even faster. 17:07:00 *hefner* hugs zile 17:07:01 tcr: Nodnod, you may. Again, i don't use slime, and I never have (though I look at swank code when I need to figure out what sbcl internals you call), so I don't keep up on it that much. 17:07:44 konr: closure-html 17:07:49 Fade: have you ever checked out how fast emacs starts without all your random customizations? 17:07:52 "emacs -q" 17:08:05 you close emacs??? 17:08:11 foom: yeah, I know, but it makes me sad to see it so crippled. 17:08:18 konr: why not use drakma? 17:08:21 herbieB: you'd have to re-write vim for my to switch back.. i like SLIME way to much, and have really come to enjoy using lisp to customize my editor. 17:08:26 p_l: I don't have ssh keys spread around all the systems I manage, so, yes. 17:08:33 drewc: Can you quantify that? 17:08:38 er, drakma. christ. 17:08:40 Fade: with a liberal application of autoload, you can make it fast with your stuff loaded too 17:08:41 drewc: Ohh, you mean just from customization. 17:08:43 Fade: most stuff can be autoloaded, so if you install it that way you get all the functionality with no startup cost 17:08:44 I think I have a brain tumor. 17:08:47 drewc: Yeah, I don't customize vim at all. 17:09:03 except that many people don't do that because it's too much effort for such a small gain as startup time 17:09:05 herbieB: interactive debugger and inspector are something i will not live without. 17:09:07 drewc: It's just a dumb editor, after all. What's to customize? 17:09:15 herbieB: right, that's my issue. 17:09:25 drewc: Interactive debugger is what's coming next. I don't know what you mean by inspector. 17:10:53 -!- addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 17:10:54 clhs inspect 17:10:54 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_inspec.htm 17:10:55 well, like the slime inspector 17:11:13 wow, sourceforge file releases don't support x86-64 17:11:27 Oh, i see. 17:11:34 herbieB: lisp is not just a dumb language where the state of the world is stored in dumb text files, so a dumb editor is, imo, counter-productive. Until you've used a nice graphical inspector to peek into some object you just pulled out of a stack-frame in the debugger, you're not using the full power of lisp's interactive development style, imo. 17:11:34 oh, my mistake, it does 17:11:56 that said, the inspector does not need to be part of the editor. 17:12:18 but you need more than just and editor to get the most out of CL. 17:12:21 buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-72-170.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:12:39 drewc: Right. And the key would be to find a way to represent the inspector inside vim. I think that's doable (eclim does a very good job at project inspection) 17:12:45 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.69.135] has quit [] 17:12:50 ok, maybe i need coffee or something 17:12:52 drewc: But thanks for the idea :) 17:12:58 -!- vande [n=sdfpme@59.36.186.252] has quit ["leaving"] 17:13:12 herbieB: all this just to avoid viper-mode? :P 17:13:31 ok, if anyone would like to check whether I've managed to do the sourceforge release dance right, 1.0.28 is up there 17:13:45 i just spent 15 minutes wondering why specializer-type was not defined... not specifier-type 17:14:26 nikodemus: the new font-lock stuff works out for you nicely now? 17:14:34 yes, thank you! 17:14:42 whenever i've brought up viper-mode with my vim using compatriots, they get indignant. 17:14:58 drewc: http://www.christoph-moder.de/texte/unix-koans.html#best_editor 17:14:59 Fade: that's because they have never seen vimpulse.el 17:15:00 Xof why isnt it mentioned in sbcl.org ? 17:15:11 last version there is .25 17:15:16 Xof: i see it 17:15:25 xristos: one thing at a time... 17:15:26 xristos: because the slack website maintainers are slack 17:15:45 herbieB: lisp koan: unix is crap. 17:16:08 drewc: Ha. 17:16:33 bell labs koan: Unix is dead and starts to smell bad? :P 17:16:44 herbieB: the mistake is thinking that you can get away with an editor when you really want an interactive environemt. I do not edit text when i edit lisp code. 17:16:46 sourceforge has an rss for file releases, which is handy for sbcl 17:17:03 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:17:14 I use vim every day in my sysadmin tasks, and sometimes for a quick edit. but i live in emacs when hacking common lisp code. 17:17:17 -!- deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:17:52 deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:17:56 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has left #lisp 17:18:10 rsynnott: #lisp is faster 17:18:30 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["Repair..."] 17:18:33 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [] 17:19:30 drewc: you can also use emacs for a quick edit. emacs --daemon + emacsclient -t work very well 17:20:20 fe[nl]ix: my fingers just type 'vi' at the command line... no amount of training is going to fix that, and aliasvi=emacs will confuse my poor fingers. 17:20:54 /me finds tramp terribly useful, though I think there is some sort of vim equivalent 17:20:55 hell, i have trouble using emacs at the terminal, my vi brain kicks in and i start trying to erase by putting xxxxxx's everywhere. 17:21:07 drewc: I've alias vi, vim and ed to emacsclient. all roads lead to emacs 17:21:44 fe[nl]ix: *nod*. One of my new years resolutions was to use more emacs, so maybe i should do something like that and force myself. 17:22:04 ejs [n=eugen@123-186-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:11 rsynnott: and i should certainly be using more of tramp. 17:22:29 tramp is awesome 17:22:43 it's just not the right choice for a lot of stuff. 17:23:10 littering a cluster with root-sanctioned ssh keys is worry-making. 17:23:12 "Are you sure you are not using classes as hashtables?" <--- someone asked that of pcos in c.l.l. ROFL! 17:23:27 nice. 17:23:46 drewc: got a link ? 17:24:06 Xof: lies 17:24:39 fe[nl]ix: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/11c859510f419b36/b9b60e01baa2771d# 17:24:45 wait .. that's to the thread.. 17:24:54 how do you link an individual post? 17:25:01 *drewc* hates google groups. 17:25:12 *hefner* googles hate groups 17:25:25 s/googles hate/hates google/ 17:25:33 drewc: individual messages in options 17:25:39 I am sorry to come at such a late date. But methods don't get optimized in SBCL under SBCL. 17:25:43 anyways, it's the last post in that thread by 'Vend' 17:25:47 eh. it's a short thread. 17:26:06 430 of 430 .. fsvo short? 17:26:10 I Im much infuriated 17:26:15 am 17:26:43 take a 'lude, dude. 17:26:47 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.68.107] has joined #lisp 17:27:03 Something for jsnell to take a hold in 17:27:36 seriously? not caring. 17:27:58 Fade: I'm not gay, jay 17:28:16 ham? I thought you said 'grasshopper'. 17:29:00 *rsynnott* is puzzled by that conversation 17:29:20 that'd be because it makes no sense. 17:29:29 younder: you make a lot of noise and contribute nothing. A lot of the people who do contribute would prefer you make no noise. 17:29:50 younder: twitter is thataway ---> 17:30:34 -!- dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [] 17:31:55 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:35 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:32:48 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151400.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:34:12 tcr: thanks! http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/f183283f727bcdb7 17:34:17 any quasiquote users here? 17:34:40 kami-: you mean cl-quasiquote? 17:34:45 tcr: yes 17:35:30 kami-: attila lendvai is, obviously. He hasn't been here for quite some time, though. 17:36:14 tcr: yes, he seems to be very busy. I hope their big lisp project goes well. 17:36:32 kami-: there are those of us who think such things are abomination and should have their water delivered to the maker! 17:36:41 cl-quasiquote? 17:36:51 yeah, i don't like. 17:37:00 uhm what's wrong with it? 17:37:10 drewc: yes. I know that there are strong opinions about those things. 17:37:25 drewc: although with my limited experience I cannot judge that. 17:37:47 nostoi [n=nostoi@224.Red-79-151-255.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:56 tcr: I think that code which uses it is unreadable, and that there are much better ways to achieve task. 17:39:07 * the same task 17:39:58 Well I thought the basic feature it provides is portable expansion of backquote. 17:40:28 for the record Xof lies 17:41:21 I think we put up with this shit long enough. 17:41:21 -!- vinleod [n=vince@c-76-105-157-42.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:41:25 -!- Joreji [n=nah@41-218.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:42:17 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has been kicked from #lisp 17:42:24 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 17:43:01 You know what's the saddest part about younder; if it's right what he said the other day, he's a phd candidate. 17:44:10 tcr: sooo it's braindamage induced by grad school? 17:44:25 *p_l* had been reading phdcomic... 17:44:36 i don't agree with the way he presents things or the way he behave .. but he does seem to be right on one thing; i have not been able to get sbcl to TCO methods, either 17:44:43 younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 17:45:05 tcr: i think the basic feature they are trying to enable with cl-quasi-quote is not a portable backquote/unquote, which i am all for personally, but rather so they can mix different language syntaxes all up together. This i don't like one bit. 17:45:10 he has social problems 17:45:14 he might still be quite smart 17:45:17 lnostdal: what does that mean (TCO methods)? 17:46:27 Tail Call Optimation 17:46:50 *Optimization 17:46:59 right 17:47:02 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.48.233] has joined #lisp 17:47:57 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@224.Red-79-151-255.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 17:49:30 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:50:12 drewc: Will you come to any of the next Lisp events in Europe? 17:50:55 tcr: i'd love to, but europe is far, and all my money goes to the damn boat(s). 17:51:07 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.69.135] has joined #lisp 17:51:11 ship overseas? 17:51:12 drewc: sail to europe 17:51:22 -!- justeco [i=tim@178.b162.bendtel.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:51:47 justeco [n=tim@90.b160.bendtel.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:05 stassats`: that's part of the plan, but only via cape-horn, and that's not happening this year :) 17:53:15 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 17:53:40 "to tail call optimize methods", pkhuong 17:54:00 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-02aef5d4fb5041cd] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:54:23 drewc: cape horn, the southest point of south america? 17:55:09 drewc: what about going through panama ? 17:56:43 stassats`: T 17:57:13 fe[nl]ix: the canal is for power boats and fair-weather sailors... real men go around via the 3 capes ;). 17:57:47 and where do you live? i forgot 17:58:19 duende_inside [n=muggli@12.41.166.8] has joined #lisp 17:59:03 vancouver? 18:00:35 stassats`: yeah, vancouver (Well, tecnically i think this is richmond... lets just say 15-20 miles up the south arm of the fraser river) 18:00:48 rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151400.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:02:17 presumably also very large ships 18:02:38 (there was a stark-raving-insane plan to widen it using nuclear explosives during the cold war, but it never happened) 18:03:47 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B1BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:59 whatever 18:05:48 younder: ? 18:06:49 Go throgh with your normal life 18:09:10 *madnificent* puts his food in the microwave (after noticing the utter failure the angry trol made in his typing error) 18:09:22 -!- saikat [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [] 18:09:46 sorry 18:10:24 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:11:43 -!- nullwork [n=kyle@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:13:14 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 18:14:52 Zaratoustras [n=user@78.33.52.101] has joined #lisp 18:17:05 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:32 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:25:30 -!- thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:30:18 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 18:30:33 mxb [n=mxb@bealbywm.plus.com] has joined #lisp 18:32:12 emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:35:57 lnostdal: (defmethod fii ((x (eql t))) (fii nil)) 18:35:57 (defmethod fii ((x (eql nil))) (fii t)) 18:36:13 trivial proof of method TCO 18:36:23 oh, cool 18:37:30 it's when you have interesting method combinations that you lose TCO -- because TCO stops being lexically apparent, you may not notice that your supposed TCO really isn't: there's eg. an :AROUND of :AFTER method left to do 18:39:29 pascal's point about lack of method TCO was the list of next-methods, which he said most implementations bound dynamically around the method function 18:40:16 huh 18:40:18 which really doesn't match my recollection of pcl internals 18:40:29 no, mine neither 18:41:03 tcr: i have another Emacs-hanging file, using Slime CVS HEAD 18:41:55 What would be the "blessed" way of building lisp programs? Ie: Makefiles, scons, rake, whichever? Is there a particular one that I should be using for a lisp program? 18:42:06 some declarations are needed to get this to work right? .. (same as when using defun?) 18:42:28 at the default settings, no declarations should be needed for either 18:42:29 minion: tell zbrown about asdf 18:42:30 zbrown: please look at asdf: asdf is Another System Definition Facility. http://www.cliki.net/asdf 18:42:37 sellout: gracias 18:42:50 minion: have a botsnack 18:42:51 maybe 18:42:53 lol 18:45:06 almagus [n=alex@95.72.27.172] has joined #lisp 18:45:32 -!- almagus [n=alex@95.72.27.172] has left #lisp 18:45:54 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@98.235.105.148] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:46:52 i still get stack overloads here .. no safety and speed 3 .. (i really don't care much, either way, tbh. .. i just wanted to point out that detail, and i don't even know much of the context etc. either) 18:46:57 -!- mega1 [n=mega@pool-02108.externet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:47:05 flow* 18:47:27 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 18:47:48 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:49 rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:28 ..and also, i got to go .. be back later 18:49:11 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 18:49:26 -!- kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:50:39 Good evening. 18:51:03 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:53:15 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:59 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:55:08 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 18:55:14 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:55:21 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.171.31] has quit ["(~Jake) You know what, Rob? You should quit being American. Like Paul. (~Jake) Be British."] 18:56:13 OK, so #lisp will not get any visits from students asking about their project for a while, because it was due a few hours ago. 18:56:27 Evening, beach. 18:56:35 hey gigamonkey 18:57:05 Did you ever end up tricking some student into writing a word processor in CL? 18:57:05 hi 18:57:25 hello Ragnaroek 18:57:34 Trick is such a nasty word, I prefer *motivate* 18:57:55 hello 18:57:57 *tmh* takes his tongue out of his cheek. 18:58:01 gigamonkey: I sort of tricked them all into doing it, because that was the subject of last year's project. Though, of course, I wrote most of it myself. 18:58:19 How'd it come out? 18:58:28 -!- gtchma_ [n=user@bootsy.cc.gatech.edu] has quit ["#lisp"] 18:58:34 gigamonkey: Crap, pretty much. 18:59:09 gigamonkey: it is very hard, at least at the undergraduate level, to combine pedagogical objectives, and Lisp-community ones. 18:59:48 clbuild gets stuck while trying to update slime, wonder why 19:00:12 cvs sucks? 19:00:17 Too bad. Any good bits at all? 19:00:23 (wouldn't blame c-l.net in this case, because other cvs repos on it update fine) 19:00:27 Surely the code you wrote wasn't crap. 19:00:44 is there something like ruby gems for CL? 19:00:49 gigamonkey: Of course not! It was just way to skimpy to be useful. 19:01:08 Ragnaroek: there is asdf-install 19:01:51 minion: tell Ragnaroek about clbuild 19:01:52 Ragnaroek: direct your attention towards clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 19:03:20 thx 19:04:45 Ragnaroek: ywlcm 19:04:47 thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:02 i cant believe clbuild is still recommended to new users 19:05:28 i can't believe asdf-install is still recommended at all 19:05:29 on that matter, i can't believe clbuild is still considered a solution 19:06:00 xristos: I guess it's because from time to time we get someone complaining about installing something through asdf-install, we give them clbuild, and some time later they appear to say "thanks! It worked!" 19:07:01 "should get to work on better solution" vs. "this somewhat works" :P 19:07:12 this seems like a disaster to me 19:07:17 perl mentality 19:07:24 xristos: do you have a better idea ? 19:07:41 instead of bugging the developers to _care_ about their users and release _releases_ 19:07:55 which is something that asdf-install at least tries to enforce 19:08:13 afk 19:08:18 you throw them get everything from cvs 19:08:35 let's not have that discussion again 19:08:45 tombom [i=tombom@82.25.194.54] has joined #lisp 19:09:06 lets not 19:10:37 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.48.233] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:11:33 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:14:33 stassats`, erm, what's wrong with having these things discussed? 19:14:55 pjb: I like what you said on Python, on comp.lang.lisp :) 19:14:56 It's not like we have a perfect solution to this area of issues. 19:15:46 deepfire: because they were discussed so many times 19:15:54 stassats`, and? 19:16:26 and no need to discuss it again 19:16:38 That's how you feel. 19:16:51 Other people might feel differently than you do. 19:16:53 doing the same thing and hoping for a different outcome is what, folks? 19:17:54 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 19:17:57 cmm-: quantum research! 19:18:23 pkhuong: now I know why I don't trust physicists! 19:18:39 fiveop [n=fiveop@p579EAC15.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:07 This argument goes both ways, anyway. 19:20:13 like a stick 19:20:36 Although, if I were xristos, I'd begin with something more useful than "i cant believe clbuild is still recommended to new users". 19:20:45 hrm, cvs update'ing slime by hand worked 19:21:01 *cmm-* puzzled, but not enough to actually investigate 19:21:48 deepfire: i see clbuild as a hack geared at developers to save them time 19:21:48 -!- HG` [n=wells@91.108.74.20] has quit [Client Quit] 19:22:06 it was never a solution and should have never been introduced as one 19:22:19 xristos, this isn't a problem, as long as it works, I think. 19:23:18 how is having a 'get everythng from vcs' software distribution mentality even close to works 19:23:31 it may work for developers and those who know what they're doing 19:24:03 xristos, as long as they do development in trunk, and clbuild is pointed at stable branches, this can work. 19:24:05 it also lets developers be lax with releases 19:24:18 some don't care, don't test, dont document, don't release 19:24:19 not many lispers really want to maintain a real repository 19:24:26 they tell you, get everything from cvs 19:24:41 eventually these symptoms will go away 19:24:43 lisp developers, those bastards 19:24:47 You can't force people making releases. 19:25:03 Doing release management is added work. 19:25:27 i am not trying to force anyone make releases 19:25:28 sure you can. Just say "I'm going to push my new packages out and if your code is broken it'll stay broken until the next release" 19:25:39 (if you maintain a repository) 19:26:01 But, perhaps, there is another issue -- that the importance of releases is downplayed. 19:26:21 deepfire the issue is that the cl community is pretty small 19:26:29 everyone pretty much knows everyone else 19:26:35 This we can't fix. 19:29:42 i just see things like that hindering cl adoption 19:29:52 (newbie) How do people tend to go about compiling their source code to standalone executable files? I am using Clozure CL on Mac OS X and it would be nice to have a standalone file that I could invoke from the shell prompt; is this not easily done? 19:30:01 What might do good, I think, is some centralised means of keeping track of releases. Not necessarily storing the binaries, but just pointers. 19:30:19 minion: executables? 19:30:21 executables: creating executables: Newcomers to Lisp often ask how to "create an executable" from their Lisp program. http://www.cliki.net/creating%20executables 19:30:31 stassats`: thanks 19:31:27 s/binaries/whatever/ 19:33:06 speaking of libraries not working right together, I'm having a really annoying time with drakma 19:33:32 No applicable method for sb-gray:stream-peek-char when called with flexi-streams::list-input-stream? 19:34:35 Preferably, pointers in some ready-to-use way, so that things can be layered on top, like automated whole-world testing. 19:34:51 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 19:35:19 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 19:35:27 -!- HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:36:01 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:37:04 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 19:37:10 -!- Krystof changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.0.28, Hunchentoot & Drakma 1.0.0, usocket 0.4.1, ABCL 0.14, cl-net-snmp 5.19, yason-0.1, trivial-features 0.4, CFFI 0.10.3, series 2.2.10, CMUCL 19f. 19:37:35 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 19:39:48 The ready-to-use-ness attainment step might be something like conversion into some DVCS, such as git. 19:39:57 -!- Krystof has set mode -t 19:40:02 -!- Krystof has set mode -o Krystof 19:40:11 This would require storage of source, not only pointers, though. 19:40:20 ehu`_ [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 19:42:48 I see you believe in technology 19:45:59 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:46:28 mega1 [n=mega@3e70d6ab.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 19:46:35 I see you being sarcastic. 19:47:08 If you have anything specific to share, you are welcome. 19:47:30 -!- drwhen [n=d@216-67-73-247-rb1.fai.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:47:52 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:09 sorry 19:49:11 well, if I understand your intention correctly, you want some sort of all-encompassing "authoritative" repository run by a third party 19:50:01 it's worked out very well for linux distros. 19:50:08 All-encompassing -- yes, authoritativity, not so much. 19:50:23 which party has, through said repository and cunning contraptions therein, to travel through time and pick working combinations of things 19:50:27 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-2067.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 19:50:44 through communication and cooperation with developers :p 19:50:56 cmm-, no, perfection doesn't need to be attained in one step. 19:51:36 the problem here is that the very possibility for their to _be_ such working combinations depends on the existance of documented (and observed) interfaces/protocols 19:51:42 *there 19:51:45 -!- mxb [n=mxb@unaffiliated/mxb] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:51:55 no one said it wouldn't be a lot of work 19:52:24 but who would do it? 19:52:34 and that precondition is largely social, especially if said third party doesn't plan to get burned out after one or two iterations 19:52:36 cmm-, don't let perfection stand in the way of improvement. 19:53:22 stassats`: that's the question, isn't it. Most lispers just want to hack code. Or talking about hacking code, at least 19:53:30 Magic fitting of things isn't going to happen, automated testing might, OTOH. 19:54:21 dlowe: right, so wee need to find some non-lispers for the task 19:54:27 stassats`, wtf? 19:54:44 somebody has to write those automatic tests, you know 19:55:11 cmm-, it's not an all-or-nothing issue, after all. 19:55:17 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:55:22 and have working criteria as to which tests are right and which are wrong 19:55:33 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-b30d2a2f48e76d1f] has joined #lisp 19:55:42 cmm-: are you arguing against it or planning on how to do it? 19:55:50 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 19:56:16 What's up with the perfectionism thing? 19:56:30 dlowe: I'm playing a devil's advocate and hoping to be disproven 19:56:42 which perfectionism? 19:57:16 I don't see any hope of improvement at all, unless authors start documenting their protocols and making releases 19:57:29 period, full stop 19:57:47 All it takes is someone with the time and energy to bug the authors. 19:57:51 Or many someones 19:58:15 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:58:16 This seems to be a recurring discussion. 19:58:21 And an organization with the reputation where authors will feel left out if their package doesn't go through 19:58:27 well, you could pay authors to do releases, i'd make releases every day for one 5 dollars 19:58:40 s/one // 19:58:42 cmm-, making releases for all projects ain't going to happen. Something less that that very well might. 19:58:51 thing is, with a small community the "keep on the bleeding edge" strategy is actually _good_, considering the alternatives 19:58:57 dlowe: and a secret police to enforce compliance ? 19:59:17 Like agreeing to have specifically named branches in source repositories. 19:59:27 fe[nl]ix: not at all. fix your bugs or get excluded from the repo. 19:59:43 cmm-, this has an upper bound of non-brokenness. 20:01:40 Well, the obvious desire is to raise that. 20:02:22 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 20:04:36 -!- thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:04:43 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17F13D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:06:03 -!- bobf_ is now known as bobf 20:06:56 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [] 20:07:18 Qwindoo [n=ThomasG@93.68.206-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:26 -!- Qwindoo [n=ThomasG@93.68.206-77.rev.gaoland.net] has left #lisp 20:08:02 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:08:03 carbocalm [n=user@64.40.185.82] has joined #lisp 20:10:01 -!- emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:10:12 i dont think we need to go that far with a central authority and all that 20:10:25 devs just need to start bugging each other 20:10:32 if they want their code to be used that is 20:11:19 perl does it, ruby does it, python does it 20:11:23 why cant we do it 20:12:56 xristos, the first step is making information available. 20:12:59 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:13:20 cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 20:13:24 s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-168-238-252.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:32 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:52 -!- cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:20:53 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:20:55 kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 20:25:23 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:38 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-160-172.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:25:50 -!- a-s` [n=user@92.80.90.15] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:26:35 a-s [n=user@92.80.90.15] has joined #lisp 20:27:15 zbrown_ [n=rufius@70.99.184.110] has joined #lisp 20:27:46 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:05 -!- zbrown [n=rufius@unaffiliated/zbrown] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:28:09 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:28:16 -!- zbrown_ is now known as zbrown 20:28:50 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:29:24 sphex__ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:31:20 benreesman_ [n=ben@asa01-ext.utc.backmo.com] has joined #lisp 20:31:40 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:20 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:26 -!- benreesman_ [n=ben@asa01-ext.utc.backmo.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:33:33 -!- sellout [n=greg@63.107.91.105] has quit [] 20:33:54 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:34:05 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a67ad2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7304120279573f3a] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 20:34:15 -!- ehu`_ is now known as ehu` 20:35:58 IIs there a push that inserts the element at the end of the list? 20:36:16 ehu`_ [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 20:36:40 -!- ajcc [n=adrian@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has quit ["ping pong poff"] 20:37:17 konr: why would you want such a thing? 20:37:29 (setf list (append list (list elt))) 20:39:06 konr: it's usually not what you want, because it is linear whereas push is constant-time. 20:39:11 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.0.152.155] has joined #lisp 20:39:56 beach: hmmm... you are right, I am doing it wrong 20:40:11 it doesn't matter if the list is short though 20:41:48 -!- sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:41:53 lnostdal: Sure, though my teaching experience (which I am guessing is much greater than yours :) tells me this kind of thinking is usually a stupid mistake. 20:42:25 yes 20:43:22 lnostdal: actually, let me tell you what is the most fascinating part of it: Even native speakers of Arab don't see the stupidity of adding to the end of a list that we draw from right to left. 20:43:46 er, left to right 20:44:06 you mean going the other way from optimal to less optimal? 20:44:17 ehu`__ [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 20:44:27 in that case, yeah, i think the fundamental mistake is to not see the differences 20:44:44 lnostdal: I mean, people are so influenced by their writing system, they don't see the optimal way of doing things. 20:44:54 ok 20:46:06 what if i imagine lists going bottom-up? 20:46:11 http://paste.lisp.org/display/79485 , konr 20:46:25 ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.80.20] has joined #lisp 20:46:26 this was copy pasted from code with some concurrency stuff in it .. so i might have left some in 20:46:38 stassats`: That's probably an improvement. 20:47:24 not sure if this is what you're after either, but whatever 20:47:34 -!- benreesman [n=ben@asa01-ext.utc.backmo.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:47:40 lnostdal: thanks! 20:47:46 yw .. .. :) 20:47:55 stassats`: Though, I am accumulating evidence that the Latin way of writing things (left-to-right) is having a bad influence on the way my students think of sequences. 20:48:31 Hi. How can I make ABCL with ASDF to put compiled files into a specified directory which is writable? 20:49:01 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:49:32 *stassats`* once had an argument about what lock to unlock first, top or bottom 20:49:34 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70d6ab.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:50:10 minion: asdf-binary-locations? 20:50:11 asdf-binary-locations: asdf binary locations is an ASDF extension which organizes your FASLs based on machine type. http://www.cliki.net/asdf-binary-locations 20:50:33 beach: what about boustrophedonic writing ? 20:50:38 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-69-221.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:18 oh well, does a-b-l work on abcl? 20:51:52 minion: Thank you! 20:51:52 no problem 20:52:49 seems that it does 20:52:59 -!- ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.80.20] has left #lisp 20:53:11 -!- akcom [i=akcom@rrcs-67-79-132-132.se.biz.rr.com] has quit [Success] 20:53:42 fe[nl]ix: That would be tiring to someone like me who is already tired of reading student reports in one direction with plenty of problems. 20:54:31 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:55:00 fe[nl]ix: and it would be quadratic anyway if applied to data structures. 20:55:08 haha 20:55:20 fe[nl]ix: Speaking of which, are you going to come to Milan? 20:55:25 yes 20:55:30 of course :) 20:55:39 couldn't miss it 20:55:42 fe[nl]ix: Excellent! 20:56:47 -!- azanar [n=edcarrel@dsl231-050-036.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [] 20:57:58 I think I found a side effect to using lisp...looking at other languages I'm now looking at how much more efficient I could write the same thing in lisp - *grumble* 20:58:01 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:58:50 TDT: This is a known side effect of Lisp. 20:59:07 * TDT leveled up in smug lisp weenie 20:59:17 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-138-96.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:00:06 TDT: then you end up in a place where you have to write Java, preferably using braindamaged editors 21:00:35 p_l: I work in doing PHP development right now..which IMO is worse than Java :-/ 21:01:29 ouch 21:01:43 -!- ehu`_ [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:01:52 I salute you for having the determination to take on PHP 21:01:57 ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.80.20] has joined #lisp 21:02:27 More I fell into these jobs, heh. It's either Java/.NET here for the most part, but just because I know PHP I get hired easily for those - even though I always hated PHP quite a bit. 21:02:47 Whenever possible, though, I write in Python here...I've been given a few opportunities to do it, but very few. 21:03:02 Ivan Chernetsky pasted "abclrc" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79486 21:03:37 minion: Please, loot at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79486 This is my .abclrc 21:03:38 i like lisp... i'm written in it 21:03:53 minion: CL-USER(4): asdf:*default-toplevel-directory* 21:03:53 #P"/home/ivan/.fasls/" 21:03:54 you speak nonsense 21:04:04 ....? 21:04:11 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250031.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:04:15 ivan_chernetsky, minion is a bot :P 21:04:16 ivan_chernetsky: i'll speak for minion 21:04:36 ivan_chernetsky: you want to say, that it doesn't work? 21:04:50 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:04:53 lnostdal: :) 21:04:55 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:05:08 c|mell [n=cmell@x250016.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 21:06:36 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 21:06:41 -!- ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.80.20] has left #lisp 21:07:15 damn, my emacs became unresponsive 21:07:54 ehu`__: ping 21:08:05 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:15 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:08:45 i wonder, whether it's one of those infinite loops tcr was talking about 21:09:11 stassats: you have angered RMS. You are not donating enough to FSF. 21:09:37 what has Record Management Systems to do with FSF? ;P 21:09:44 fe[nl]ix: hi 21:09:51 -!- ehu`__ is now known as ehu` 21:09:56 :-P 21:10:01 p_l: to record donations 21:10:17 stassats: he'll send ESR after you if you don't start donating soon :-| 21:10:30 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 21:10:39 pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has joined #lisp 21:10:48 ah. reading backscroll. 21:11:08 Everytime I go back to working in lisp I keep wondering why I bother writing code in C 21:11:47 zbrown: wasn't ESR not really in stallman's favor? ;P 21:11:53 fe[nl]ix: he's gone. 21:12:10 ehu`: would you consider adding the ability to load a global config file to abcl ? for example /etc/abclrc 21:12:11 p_l: its unimportant, he's a lacky 21:12:13 p_l: :) 21:12:44 ehu`: who's gone ? 21:12:52 fe[nl]ix: sure. why not. currently we have $HOME/.abclrc 21:13:13 fe[nl]ix: ivan_ who was asking about ABCL. 21:13:33 fe[nl]ix: you were not pinging me because of that? 21:13:46 fe[nl]ix: does SBCL have such a global config? 21:13:48 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 21:14:04 no, but his problem reminded me to ask you about this 21:14:12 ehu`: yes, it's /etc/sbclrc 21:14:43 -!- jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has quit [] 21:15:35 fe[nl]ix: any idea where that global config should be loaded from on Windows? 21:15:38 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-238.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:16:06 where does SBCL read its global config on Windows? 21:16:15 ehu`: I have no idea 21:17:11 ehu`: perhaps from the system register ? 21:17:16 ehu`_ [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 21:18:02 storing lisp code in the register doesn't sound good 21:18:39 I wonder what's wrong with my connectivity today. 21:19:30 cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 21:19:55 mburns [n=mburns@ash.osuosl.org] has joined #lisp 21:20:13 hi 21:20:18 hi 21:22:47 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:23:06 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 21:23:22 dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:41 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:23:44 azanar [n=edcarrel@edm1a.mavericklabel.com] has joined #lisp 21:24:42 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-064-147.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:52 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 21:26:29 stassats: probably. nikodemus encountered one before, too. Pleaes email me the source file. I'll look into it tomorrow. 21:26:49 stassats: for the time being you can set slime-highlight-suppressed-forms to nil 21:27:04 i can't reproduce it, though 21:27:38 Oh ok. 21:30:30 -!- lispm_ [n=joswig@e177122113.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 21:30:42 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:31:19 ehu`_: It probably stores it somewhere under your HOME, if it stores it properly 21:31:50 system-wide? 21:32:00 p_l: that's for the personal one, I'd say, but that's not the system wide one. 21:32:05 as stassats says. 21:32:13 What about "Default User"? 21:32:47 also, installdir, I guess 21:34:20 -!- rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [] 21:35:14 azanar_ [n=edcarrel@edm1a.mavericklabel.com] has joined #lisp 21:35:25 -!- azanar [n=edcarrel@edm1a.mavericklabel.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:35:39 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:36:25 ehu`_: I tried to build abcl from svn a few hours ago, I got a build failure 21:36:40 tcr: which platform? 21:37:01 ; (DEFSTRUCT CONSTANT-TYPE ...) 21:37:02 java.lang.ClassCastException: org.armedbear.lisp.Nil cannot be cast to org.armedbear.lisp.Pathname 21:37:21 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:37:46 oh platform, I read "problem" 21:38:06 I'm updating and building now. 21:38:08 on linux x86-32, using sun's jdk 1.6 21:38:21 but it's on Windows. 21:38:26 same here, Java 1.6.0_0 Sun Microsystems Inc. OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM 21:38:27 That's what I have available. 21:38:35 (and jdk 1.5) 21:38:44 and the new sbcl version as lisp host compiler 21:38:44 *ehu`_* checks his 1.6 install 21:38:54 stassats: you mean you get an error too? 21:38:57 ah! I use the Ant build 21:39:01 tcr: yes 21:39:08 ccl for building 21:39:19 ok. 21:39:30 I'll build with the lisp builder. 21:40:10 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.0.152.155] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:40:13 ok gtg now, good night 21:40:50 that's from ant: /home/stas/lisp/impl/abcl/build.xml:129: No supported regular expression matcher found: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: org.apache.tools.ant.util.regexp.Jdk14RegexpRegexp 21:41:30 I think your ant is incomplete then. 21:41:33 debian? 21:41:36 yes 21:41:38 kidd2 [n=kidd@221.Red-79-152-43.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:46 on debian I think you need ant-tools or ant-utils too 21:42:00 (dunno the exact name of the support package) 21:42:16 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:42:18 it's said to be a packaging issue with debian. 21:42:43 ok. building with CLISP and JDK1.5.0_18 21:42:55 *ehu`_* waits 21:43:28 ant-optional 21:43:37 yea that one. 21:44:07 schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:45:36 ok switching to JDK1.6.0_12 21:46:09 success with ant 21:46:23 that's not funny. 21:47:37 I patiently wait for the result of the CLISP+jdk1.6 21:48:19 uh-oh, now slime doesn't get loaded 21:49:59 stassats: how old was your last build? 21:50:20 clisp+1.6_12+windows also works 21:50:40 a month, maybe 21:50:44 -!- schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:50:59 hmm. ok. at least much more recent then december. 21:51:37 I was thinking of this issue: http://trac.common-lisp.net/armedbear/ticket/48 21:51:49 but if it worked for you before, then I don't think that's it. 21:52:16 I need to go to bed, but would greatly appreciate a writeup of your problems. 21:52:46 ok, i'll go to bed too 21:52:48 -!- kidd1 [n=kidd@97.Red-88-17-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:53:15 later, then.- 21:56:12 mxb [n=mxb@bealbywm.plus.com] has joined #lisp 22:00:40 brandelune [n=suzume@pl092.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:00:47 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:03:30 now, i loaded with some tricks and really going to sleep 22:03:58 stassats: good night then? 22:04:11 yeah, good night 22:07:25 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:07:56 white-rabbit-obj [n=cpc5@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:12:20 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:14:12 -!- nullman [n=nullman@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:15:18 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:16:26 -!- dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [] 22:17:19 -!- carbocalm [n=user@64.40.185.82] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:18:21 -!- ehu`_ [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:19:49 dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:27 ejs1 [n=eugen@123-186-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:41 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:26:06 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 22:28:26 -!- mxb [n=mxb@unaffiliated/mxb] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:29:20 HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 22:29:25 -!- sphex__ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:29:48 grumps [n=grumps@adsl-69-209-49-188.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:07 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:31:23 -!- HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Client Quit] 22:35:13 jfactor [n=jfactor@student166-199.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 22:38:36 -!- unhknown [n=nonamme@cpe-74-64-125-220.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:39:11 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:39:17 antoszka_ [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:39:30 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:40:05 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:20 -!- antoszka_ is now known as antoszka 22:40:34 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 22:41:22 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:46:42 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:55 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:04 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 22:54:22 damn. I want to use postmodern 22:54:27 and I thin I installed it 22:55:06 but it says CONNECT-TOPLEVEL is undefined. 22:55:27 and I have no experience with this to fall back on. 22:55:57 *justeco* holds his hat in his hand and looks up at the channel with puppydog eyes. 22:56:39 if (require :postmodern) returns nil, is that good or bad? 22:57:50 -!- dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [] 22:59:14 justeco: good 23:02:48 is a certification program, something like schooling or must someone first get the skills and then try to get certified ? 23:03:24 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@123-186-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:03:24 sepult: ? 23:03:36 p_l: oh sorry offtopic i know 23:03:46 sepult: More like out-of-context 23:04:03 err yes 23:05:02 ejs1 [n=eugen@123-186-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:09 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 23:05:54 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:08:14 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.69.135] has quit [] 23:09:08 jbmigel [n=jbm@S010600179a220e57.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:26 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [] 23:16:59 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633852.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:17:21 -!- cavelife^ [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:17:21 -!- deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:17:51 deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:17:57 aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 23:18:50 if I have more than one lisp running on slime... is there a way to select which lisp to compile changes to? 23:19:21 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-064-147.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:20:39 -!- grumps [n=grumps@adsl-69-209-49-188.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 23:21:29 cavelife^ [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has joined #lisp 23:21:59 grumps [n=grumps@adsl-69-209-49-188.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:26 benreesman [n=ben@asa01-ext.utc.backmo.com] has joined #lisp 23:22:29 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250016.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:25:20 you can select current lisp 23:25:26 slime-cycle-connections i think 23:25:49 i may be mistaken as i don't use slime any more 23:25:59 oh? 23:26:05 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:26:09 -!- justeco [n=tim@90.b160.bendtel.net] has left #lisp 23:26:21 hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:27 have you dropped the whole fancy-ide thing, or did you start using something like CUSP? 23:26:52 i made my own on top of opengl 23:27:19 that way i can have real interactive listener (images/animation etc) 23:27:37 that's the spirit. 23:27:38 and slime was pissing me off majorly 23:27:39 interesting. Do you have it up somewhere? 23:27:46 that sounds kind of great :) 23:27:53 i will release it once i'm happy with it 23:27:58 its tied to osx at the moment 23:29:03 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 23:29:03 mhig [n=michael@94-194-177-13.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:29:29 hello :) 23:29:38 hi 23:30:16 i want to define a clos class with some slots that have the same read/setf behavior 23:30:17 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:31 what do you mean? 23:30:51 (defclass foo () ((var :accessor var)))? or something else? 23:30:52 the code for the reader/accessor is the same for every slot 23:31:10 i can not simply declare the same accessor 23:31:19 i can not differentiate between the different slots 23:31:44 I don't understand what you mean. 23:32:18 i have class A with slotA and slotB 23:32:25 right 23:32:33 let us assume slotA and slotB store strings 23:32:51 i want the reader to convert the string to lowercase 23:33:03 this is the same behavior for slotA and slotB 23:33:10 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@123-186-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:33:14 i could use two different readers but the code would be the same 23:33:22 you can define an :around method around the accessor 23:33:27 or define the accessor yourself from scratch 23:33:54 yes 23:34:01 mhig, see slot-value-using-class 23:34:02 i will have to define two accessors 23:34:07 one for slotA and one for slotB 23:34:21 i want to define the same accessor for both slots 23:34:27 the code is the same, only the slot is different 23:35:03 mhig: you can do some MOP magic, or you can write a macro 23:35:04 or both 23:35:50 where can i look for documentation on MOP 23:35:51 slot-value-using-class would be appropriate if you don't care about being able to fetch the unmodified value 23:36:03 http://www.lisp.org/mop/index.html 23:36:07 thank you 23:36:26 you might also want to grab a copy of AMOP :) 23:36:31 excellent book 23:36:33 dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:40 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@p579EAC15.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 23:37:45 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:39:55 listener with opengl on osx... reminds me of that impromptu thing 23:40:05 nothing like it 23:40:13 actually the idea is similar 23:40:39 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:24 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B1BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:42:24 had a different thing in mind, just saw impromptu 23:42:35 its very similar yes 23:43:07 that sounds pretty exciting, impromptu is quite appealing :) 23:43:41 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-2067.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:46:01 ltriant [n=luket@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:47:03 sykopomp you can see how it was many months ago 23:47:06 bobf_ [n=bob@host81-151-255-132.range81-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:47:10 http://www.suspicious.org/~night/kether2.mov 23:47:25 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:47:30 -!- bobf_ is now known as bobf 23:47:31 i had to scrap that and start from scratch 23:47:43 but its something i can actually use daily now 23:48:04 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-17-204-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:44 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-17-204-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:52:13 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:38 -!- duende_inside [n=muggli@12.41.166.8] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:53:39 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:53:39 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.68.107] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:53:39 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [brown.freenode.net 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