00:00:19 *meingbg* just discovered (make-pset), had to look in the source to find the function.. 00:02:28 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:04:58 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-121-172.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 00:10:20 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:13:19 what is the kbd for to eval the whole slime scracth 00:13:52 i just know slime eval defun c-c c-c but i don't know the other 00:14:14 <_3b> you could try M-x slime-eval-buffer 00:14:33 <_3b> or in a buffer for a .lisp file, C-c C-k 00:14:37 it doesn't say so on the drop-down? 00:15:16 droogie: try C-h b at the repl to see a list of keybindings 00:18:09 -!- erk [n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:19:06 droogi [n=user@88.238.42.130] has joined #lisp 00:19:10 Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.39.122] has joined #lisp 00:19:39 :) emacs is closed while trying eval :D 00:21:07 anyway, there seems to be no keybinding for slime-eval-buffer but i found c-j in slime manual, and it seems usually handy 00:21:13 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:37 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250006.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:22:55 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:23:39 akcom [i=akcom@rrcs-67-79-132-132.se.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:29:44 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-223.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 00:31:53 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:02 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-68-239-77-4.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:51 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-121-172.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:43:27 -!- elurin [n=user@81.213.201.55] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:45:36 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:46:08 hi, how do I force a recompile on a package that I got from asdf-install? 00:46:49 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 00:49:29 <_3b> (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op 'package-name :force t) ? 00:52:39 _3b: thanks 00:54:13 poet [n=tim@unaffiliated/poet] has joined #lisp 00:54:26 Vichfret [n=Vicfred@189.228.35.12] has joined #lisp 00:54:27 I'm having trouble figuring out how to start a swank server in the background on a remote machine 00:54:54 -!- Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.39.122] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:55:10 -!- Vichfret is now known as Vicfred 00:55:16 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [No route to host] 00:55:47 http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Setting-up-the-lisp-image.html#Setting-up-the-lisp-image 00:57:19 -!- HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:00:37 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:15 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:58 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.68.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:02:12 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.68.107] has joined #lisp 01:04:03 _3b: i asked this in today and people told me to better ask you, i was searching for a cl-opengl tutorial and people suggested directly using red book, but i saw some minor changes between the original c examples and cl-opengl ones, are there so much differences between that requires me to first dive into both cl and opengl seperately before trying examples in red book with cl-opengl? 01:04:43 <_3b> probably most of the differences you see are actually cl-glut 01:05:41 _3b: i mean i'm planning to use cl mostly for visualisation, so i thought it would be better practicing with cl-opengl while learning the language, but i'm not sure 01:07:17 <_3b> anything in particular you have questions about? 01:07:30 takehiko [i=d114539f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-42fda716c4887b0e] has joined #lisp 01:09:43 hmm, i guess not, just looking for suggestion :) 01:10:13 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:10:27 <_3b> well, the GL part should translate fairly closely, at least for the simpler parts 01:11:02 -!- chessguy_work is now known as CHESSGUY 01:11:17 -!- CHESSGUY is now known as chessguy 01:11:35 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:11:40 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.19] has joined #lisp 01:12:02 <_3b> i'd say just try it, and ask questions when ever something isn't clear :) 01:14:05 hrr4 [n=hrr4@p5081B80C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 01:14:17 so... what's the simplest way for me to make a window and draw on it with lisp? I can't seem to make head or tail of most packages... it gets complicated so quickly 01:14:52 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:59 <_3b> lispbuilder-sdl should let you do simple drawing fairly easily, if you don't need GUI widgets and such 01:15:35 sure, so long as the only graphics primitive you need is aref =p 01:16:00 <_3b> i think it comes with hooks to use vecto with it also 01:16:39 that suggestions another question, that of whether you need a window at all. if you just want to draw something, you might as well do it to a file. 01:16:56 that's a good point 01:16:59 <_3b> yeah, that would have been my next suggestion 01:17:13 <_3b> maybe throw in a run-program call to xv or smoething if you need to display it :) 01:17:35 I just keep the image open in qgview, and it reloads it within a second or so after I've rewritten it 01:17:37 <_3b> (or just throw if across slime to emacs if you are feeling adventurous :) 01:17:42 gqview rather 01:18:03 (that said, when I want to draw something, I usually do it into the mcclim listener) 01:20:00 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:20:29 for example, i compared the circle examples, it was pretty close however there were some differences in code. like the init function that is defined but never used in c example turns into an argument of a defmethod in cl-opengl one. i couldn't decide if that was a programmer choice or is it needed to be different in that matter to work in cl 01:21:28 i mean "it isn't used in other functions" by "never used", sorry 01:21:43 a good approach to dealing with things you don't understand is to ignore or cargo cult them until it seems necessary to understand them 01:21:51 <_3b> cl-glut uses CLOS, so it works a bit differently from C glut 01:22:01 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:22:15 <_3b> you can call the low level glut bindings directly and it will work exactly like in C, but then you have to do more work :) 01:22:57 <_3b> which specific file are you looking at in cl-opengl so i can compare? 01:23:55 -!- takehiko [i=d114539f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-42fda716c4887b0e] has left #lisp 01:23:55 -!- hrr4_ [n=hrr4@p5081C3CE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:24:32 http://www.opengl.org/resources/code/samples/redbook/clip.c 01:24:53 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-opengl/darcs/cl-opengl/examples/redbook/clip.lisp 01:25:10 yes, these two were the ones i compared. 01:27:33 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:27:39 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 01:27:52 <_3b> ok, cl-glut takes care of most of the initialization for you, so all the glutInit*() calls from the C example are hidden 01:28:08 <_3b> you just set them as default-initargs when you define the clip-window class 01:29:03 <_3b> are you familiar with CLOS at all? 01:29:07 droogi: the Lisp version looks much better doesn't it? :-) 01:29:42 *_3b* should let luis explain it, since luis might actually know how cl-glut works :) 01:30:57 luis: i must agree with this :) 01:31:35 i wish opengl was written in cl :D 01:32:41 <_3b> nah, it would have even worse driver support then :p 01:32:51 srsly! 01:32:53 droogi: so hmm, most of the differences you are mentioned have to do with the GLUT interface (the window toolkit), not OpenGL, isn't it? 01:33:20 s/are/have 01:33:20 luis: it seems as if, yes. 01:33:46 if you want "OpenGL in CL", there's a thing called GLOS, which implements about 5% of OpenGL, and I'm certain you won't be able to get working anyway, but is rather neat =p 01:34:36 :D i remember seeing it, works with cmucl, right? 01:34:46 yeah. 01:35:22 droogi: why are the lisp examples hard to follow for you? 01:36:34 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:37:15 luis: because i think i'm trying to practice with cl-opengl a bit early since i don't know any clos yet :) 01:40:04 droogi: well, you could take a little time to learn CLOS first or you can just take the examples and modify them. 01:41:18 luis: so would they work again if i write them closer to the redbook ones? 01:42:00 -!- Lone_Wanderer [n=Dan@c-24-10-162-205.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:43:04 droogi: you could make them closer to the redbook. You'd learn a little about GLUT but very little about OpenGL. 01:43:47 <_3b> you'd also have to learn about cffi to make them look like the redbook examples 01:44:01 <_3b> so clos would probably be better to learn to start out 01:44:07 i know this is inconvenient and a bit silly but i just want to combine the learning process with my interest to make it more efficient, so i'm trying to exercise directly with graphical libraries as much as possible 01:44:49 ... Okay, I'm not having a repeat of that dinner in a hurry. 01:44:52 <_3b> you probably don't want to use GLUT for serious apps anyway, so i wouldn't worry about that part too much 01:44:54 _3b: so i think my approach will keep me from learning with hardening things 01:45:38 droogi: what do you want to make more efficient? 01:45:56 luis: my learning curve :D 01:46:25 but i think i'll first start learning clos as you recommend 01:46:44 sepult_ [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-25.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:47:51 <_3b> luis: any opinion on moving cl-opengl to git? 01:48:03 and thanks _3b, luis. now i also see the difference between the examples. 01:48:10 _3b: no objections. 01:49:00 <_3b> luis: cool, i'll probably move my fork to git then 01:49:36 <_3b> don't suppose you ever got a chance to look at the way i did the gl3 stuff? 01:50:00 _3b: I remember looking at it, but that's about it. 01:50:09 <_3b> any opinion? 01:50:21 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-7657b32cfcb68123] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:50:42 What I mean is that all I remember is that I *did* look at it. :-) 01:50:58 <_3b> ok, i don't really remember that well either :) 01:51:18 http://www.3bb.cc/tmp/darcs/cl-opengl/ ; is this it? 01:51:25 <_3b> hoping to get back to it soon though, and see if 3.1 fits into it well or not 01:51:29 <_3b> yeah, that looks right 01:51:37 Sep 2008. Time flies! 01:52:33 <_3b> if it still works with 3.1, i'll probably suggest merging it, but not until then 01:53:28 vande [n=sdfpme@116.4.100.145] has joined #lisp 01:53:32 <_3b> i'd also possibly like to split out some parts, like the array wrappers, into a sort of contrib/extension setup of some sort 01:53:39 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:54:29 <_3b> or maybe a separate utilities library or something 01:54:48 Sounds sensible. 01:55:06 <_3b> with the goal that stuff that ends up useful would move from there to the main cl-opengl 01:56:37 rme [n=rme@70.104.98.143] has joined #lisp 01:59:13 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:39 <_3b> hmm, http://developer.nvidia.com/object/bindless_graphics.html sounds interesting 02:01:59 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-121-172.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:02:13 *_3b* is still sort of tempted to make a no-old-hardware cl-opengl fork :) 02:05:14 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-68-239-77-4.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:06:19 -!- danlei [n=user@217.84.243.202] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 02:07:34 _3b: that's probably not a bad idea. 02:07:58 <_3b> the no-old-hardware fork you mean? 02:08:02 yes. 02:08:15 <_3b> hard part is defining 'old hardware' 02:08:31 <_3b> since intel still ships huge piles of 'old hardware' by my definition :( 02:08:33 I'm looking forward to OpenGL and DirectX becoming obsolete. 02:10:27 <_3b> though i suppose we could try to layer cl-opengl a bit more 02:10:56 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-173-58-94-2.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:07 <_3b> split out old extensions from the low level bindings, sort of like the gl3 fork, then have more than 1 high level layer on top of that 02:11:25 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-156.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 02:13:34 legumbre` [n=user@r190-135-30-129.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 02:13:38 <_3b> since when you have stuff like that bindless_graphics paper saying cache misses from the current fastest api is causing 7x slowdown, it seems kind of silly to worry about support for the slow APIs 02:14:30 <_3b> especially when the old API are much uglier to support since they need foriegn pointers stored and managed 02:15:14 mogunus [n=user@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 02:15:28 <_3b> not sure when i'm going to actually find time for all this reorganization though :p 02:16:46 Yeah... 02:17:09 -!- nyef [n=nyef@24.220.182.229] has quit ["G'night all."] 02:17:13 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-178-84.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:26 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:19:33 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 02:26:52 dulouz [n=ross@dsl254-119-219.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:13 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-57-170.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:31:18 -!- legumbre` is now known as legumbre 02:31:33 Can threading in SBCL be turned off from the REPL? 02:32:00 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 02:34:59 (quit) ;-) 02:37:19 Heh, that would work. 02:38:52 tmh: what would exactly "turning threads off" consist in? 02:39:01 -!- white-rabbit-obj [n=cpc5@67.241.171.153] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:42:31 luis: Well, on reflection, this might be more of an issue with slime spawning threads. So, maybe I just need to start slime with the slime threading facilities disabled. 02:47:48 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:49:24 -!- Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.35.12] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:50:15 i really wonder why a great mode like slime-fuzzy-compilation isn't the default :) 02:50:58 Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.35.12] has joined #lisp 02:51:57 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:29 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:55:51 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:00:16 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:28 -!- rme [n=rme@70.104.98.143] has quit [] 03:06:08 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:47 brahvi [i=fbbb@202.163.73.172] has joined #lisp 03:09:46 -!- cipher [n=cipher@pool-173-48-136-239.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:10:01 cipher [n=cipher@173.48.136.239] has joined #lisp 03:10:40 Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 03:19:55 -!- brahvi [i=fbbb@202.163.73.172] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:23:44 danlei [n=user@217.84.242.92] has joined #lisp 03:33:51 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:34:12 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-179-44-188.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:35:31 jlf` [n=user@68.183.235.250] has joined #lisp 03:37:02 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-138-18.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 03:38:22 -!- dulouz [n=ross@dsl254-119-219.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:42:43 white-rabbit-obj [n=cpc5@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:45:49 -!- vande [n=sdfpme@116.4.100.145] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:54:18 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-a1665a99f53f8a80] has joined #lisp 03:56:13 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-a1665a99f53f8a80] has left #lisp 03:58:46 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@2001:6f8:10f6:200:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:03:56 -!- white-rabbit-obj [n=cpc5@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:04:11 ASau [n=user@host162-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 04:04:38 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:05:23 ASau` [n=user@host161-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 04:07:20 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:32 -!- ASau [n=user@host162-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:11:43 ASau [n=user@host162-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 04:17:50 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:18:27 fuzzy completion or compilation? 04:18:41 vande [n=sdfpme@116.4.100.145] has joined #lisp 04:19:14 droogi, I can't fime compilation 04:20:02 what does "fime" mean? 04:20:16 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["Changing server"] 04:20:18 typo, I meant find 04:20:41 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:16 M - x slime-complete-symbol? 04:21:58 you mentioned slime-fuzzy-compilation 04:22:01 oh i am sorry :) 04:22:09 yes exactly 04:22:33 english is not my native language so sometimes .. 04:22:41 :) 04:22:48 so its completion then 04:23:00 yes, of course :) 04:23:32 -!- Buganini is now known as Featureanini 04:24:23 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-159-90.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:13 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 04:34:39 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:35:02 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:38:24 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:13 -!- never_where [n=user@78.33.52.101] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:46:53 GrayMagiker [n=steve@97-123-189-76.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:13 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:48:15 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:50:30 wlr [n=walt@65.96.92.150] has joined #lisp 04:55:41 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Client Quit] 04:56:26 p0a [n=user@athedsl-372787.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 04:56:34 Hello is there an arugment for format 04:56:36 that does not print anything 04:57:02 for example (format t "hello~Xworld" (f)) should print "helloworld" 04:57:42 ah, ~* 04:57:43 (format t "hello~aworld" "") 04:58:09 [and good morning everone] 04:58:21 beach: no, that is not what I mean 04:58:33 I mean for it to print "helloworld", but evaluate (f). and it shouldn't matter what value f returns 04:58:38 I think it's ~* what I'm looking for 04:59:16 now I have another question, is it possible to give the same value like this, (format t "~a ~Xa" "hello"), where that should print "hellohello" 04:59:52 That's not called an argument, but a "parameter". 05:01:15 parameter it is then 05:01:35 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:01:42 -!- mogunus [n=user@173.9.7.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:03:07 -!- vande [n=sdfpme@116.4.100.145] has quit ["leaving"] 05:03:40 sohum [n=sohum@unaffiliated/sohum] has joined #lisp 05:06:22 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-372787.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 05:06:26 roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:08 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:07:12 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 05:10:21 hm, never mind, updating flexi-streams fixt it 05:10:23 -!- sohum [n=sohum@unaffiliated/sohum] has left #lisp 05:20:33 minion: memo for p0a: (format t "~a~1:*~a" "hello") 05:20:33 Remembered. I'll tell p0a when he/she/it next speaks. 05:20:55 xan-afk_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:21:20 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-197-80-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 05:25:20 -!- wlr [n=walt@65.96.92.150] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:26:09 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:20 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.19] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:28:20 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-197-155-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:31:33 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 05:32:50 -!- xan-afk [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:35:04 dysinger_ [n=tim@ip-64-139-9-115.dsl.sca.megapath.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:13 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:23 TimDalySr [n=daly@dynamic-acs-72-23-19-139.zoominternet.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:44 manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has joined #lisp 05:43:05 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:43:15 manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has joined #lisp 05:43:34 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:43:39 -!- dysinger [n=tim@64.139.9.115] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:43:44 manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has joined #lisp 05:43:44 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has left #lisp 05:45:41 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:52:30 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ed121189c115e650] has joined #lisp 05:53:00 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ed121189c115e650] has left #lisp 05:55:42 smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:55:52 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 05:55:56 Good morning. 05:57:48 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-143-117.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:59:13 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:05:57 vande [n=sdfpme@116.4.100.145] has joined #lisp 06:06:24 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:12:50 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:14:33 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 06:14:35 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has joined #lisp 06:17:47 -!- xan-afk_ is now known as xan 06:21:41 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:25:42 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:34 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@1833.x.rootbsd.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:46 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 06:30:55 good morning 06:37:31 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:37:42 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 06:39:42 adityo [n=adityo@59.183.1.30] has joined #lisp 06:41:54 -!- Jarvellis is now known as veljarvis 06:49:14 -!- sellout [n=greg@24.128.50.176] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:49:23 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:49:32 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 06:50:41 younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 06:50:46 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:51:55 adityo_ [n=adityo@59.183.51.16] has joined #lisp 06:53:24 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-126-133.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:53:29 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:53:50 good morning 06:54:09 hi mvilleneuve 06:57:52 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:58:16 brandelune [n=suzume@pl392.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:00:51 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:01:23 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:01:39 mega1 [n=mega@3e44bf96.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:05:58 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:06:10 cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 07:07:08 Ragnaroek [i=54a63f61@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d8b5c3a0c1468a9c] has joined #lisp 07:07:13 -!- adityo [n=adityo@59.183.1.30] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:11:54 so nyef can build sbcl on windows. Anyone else? 07:12:02 *_3b* can 07:12:09 <_3b> did you see the discussion earlier? 07:12:28 <_3b> (specifically, building on cygwin has been broken for a while) 07:14:15 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:33 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 07:15:42 *mega1* checks the logs 07:15:52 <_3b> looks like ~8 hrs ago or so 07:17:00 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:18:00 elias` [n=me@resnet-nat-206.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 07:19:27 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-246.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:19:59 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 07:20:52 ok, so the unless child -1 fix is needed and nyef will fix the rest 07:21:45 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:22:21 elias` [n=me@resnet-nat-365.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 07:22:39 <_3b> yeah, i get only sb-simple-streams failure with 1.0.27.47 07:23:02 <_3b> which is normal as far as i know 07:24:17 elias`_ [n=me@resnet-nat-082.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 07:24:17 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:24:29 -!- elias`_ is now known as elias` 07:27:00 splittist [n=dmurray@61-50.76-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:27:06 morning 07:27:27 morning 07:29:24 -!- smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [] 07:29:33 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:29:40 good good 07:29:48 I just had an idea for a horrible or hilarious hack 07:30:54 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:31:51 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:32:13 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Client Quit] 07:34:20 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-9a6e170acf0f43f6] has joined #lisp 07:34:55 share it 07:42:35 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-123-164.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:44:07 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-53-136.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:45:44 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-117-18.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:50:05 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-126-133.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 07:50:14 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 07:50:43 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:53:20 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-123-164.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:53:57 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 07:54:31 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 07:55:23 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-126-133.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:57:37 lol 07:58:06 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@student167-193.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 07:58:48 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:59:33 How about my old fibboachi routine where you dynamically define new EQL spesializers instead of using a cache.. (using eval...) That's pretty funny 07:59:47 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 08:01:26 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 08:05:17 younder: that is also the EQL-FIB cl-bench benchmark 08:05:44 http://paste.lisp.org/display/79337 08:05:57 maga1: really :) 08:06:39 actually, not quite 08:07:03 mega1: did you end up playing with sheeple after all? 08:07:49 sykopomp: no, I got disheartened by hearing that it does not do the kind of acquisition I was looking for. 08:09:11 loxs [n=loxs@193.195.73.210] has joined #lisp 08:10:15 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 08:10:23 what was that again? Assign only certain slots to be delegated? 08:10:53 Beket [n=stathis@adsl-253-222.diodos.auth.gr] has joined #lisp 08:10:59 -!- loxs [n=loxs@193.195.73.210] has quit [Client Quit] 08:11:03 HG` [n=wells@91.108.74.20] has joined #lisp 08:11:23 Well I finally got SBCL, SLIME and Closure to build under cbuild.. 08:12:09 So my SBCL enviroment is ready to go. 08:12:33 sykopomp: having copies of some slots in the child and sharing other slots with the parent 08:12:55 oh that 08:13:13 yeah, that sounds pretty confusing :\ 08:13:23 but I'm still contemplating the design ... 08:13:23 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:13:39 I'm not sure exactly why you want that? 08:13:42 sykopomp: no more than static fields 08:14:11 at the risk or boring the audience here again with this: 08:14:54 there is a class representing a neural network with weights (huge array), nodes (huge array), and kinds of random parameters. 08:15:00 jgracin [n=jgracin@93-138-11-12.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 08:15:07 *all kinds of 08:16:30 back propagation using the Sigmoid function? 08:16:31 Nodes hold the input, output and intermediate values. The user can say: "I want another network that's like this and use it concurrently with the original". 08:16:51 ah, that's where the inheritance comes in... 08:17:07 younder: it's more general than that 08:17:20 good 08:17:37 freshbananas [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:02 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:18:36 sykopomp: yes. Usually weights and parameters are to be shared, so that if the parent (that's being trained) has weights changed it's reflected in the child and vice versa. 08:19:16 Usually. And it's not clear before hand whether a particular parameter in a slot is to be shared or not. 08:19:46 perhaps it's the wrong tree, I don't know. 08:20:58 Are you aware that neural nets can be more efficiently modelled with rings where the ring represent's the total behaviour of a cluster neurons and this can be precoded with behaviour using baiesian statistics? 08:22:11 more efficiently compared to what? 08:22:43 Going over each neuron. 08:22:57 maybe a link is in order 08:23:24 This is still very much a research topic. 08:23:27 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:25:06 then there are lots of papers, I guess 08:25:19 Actally it was my ticket into a post doctorate research position at the university of Edinburough, but I will keep you posted. After I have published.. 08:26:03 I still cant spell it.. :) 08:26:16 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 08:26:30 Edinburg 08:26:44 Edinburgh 08:26:49 that's not far from me 08:26:50 right 08:27:17 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 08:29:03 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-9a6e170acf0f43f6] has left #lisp 08:29:09 -!- divinebovine [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:30:08 p_i: where are you then? 08:33:11 loxs [n=loxs@193.195.73.210] has joined #lisp 08:33:18 rolly1975 [n=rory@193.108.78.132] has joined #lisp 08:34:14 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 08:34:45 -!- ASau` [n=user@host161-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:35:06 ASau` [n=user@77.246.231.161] has joined #lisp 08:35:12 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 08:41:20 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.251.138] has quit ["leaving"] 08:42:32 addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 08:45:39 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-153-45.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:49:28 schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 08:50:17 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 08:51:17 mega1: what are your concerns? that the huge arrays cannot be copied for each version of the network? 08:52:20 michaelw: I want changes in slot values to be reflected in the "child". 08:52:30 this works trivially with the weights array 08:53:29 -!- sepult_ [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-25.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 08:53:39 But there are slots holding a single number, and when that slot changes both the parent and the child should see it. 08:54:02 the slot should be effectively shared, like with class allocation 08:54:25 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-25.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:54:32 But what to share should be decision of the child. 08:54:52 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-25.netcologne.de] has left #lisp 08:55:57 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-25.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:56:11 hm, and change is only visible "downwards", mega1 ? .. i mean; it kinda splits in real-time? 08:56:50 or is the split determined once, but at run-time, then persists? 08:58:01 (setq child (copy-network *parent* :shared-slots '(scale weights))) 08:58:02 mega1: sounds like :initarg :shareable-slot :initform (make-cell) and (defun make-child (parent) (make-instance (class-of parent) :shareable-slot (shareable-slot parent)) 08:58:02 you could add an indirection (defun mk-ref (value) (cons value nil)) .. then "hide" the indirection using the slot-value-using-class thingies .. or, something else 08:58:29 (atom 1) => t 08:58:33 check and go 08:58:52 ..and/or maybe add a slot-option to be explicit about it 08:59:35 How about using a local cache implemented as a hash table. To access the values you use frequently? 09:01:38 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:01:53 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 09:04:23 lnostdal, michaelw, you seem to be suggesting similar things, but if I hide the cons with s-v-u-c then I have to access the true value (for make-instance) by giving s-v-u-c another class? 09:04:31 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 09:05:06 mega1: if we make (some) structures allocate their slots starting from position 3 rather than position 1, we can subclass those structure classes with standard-classes 09:05:07 -!- vande [n=sdfpme@116.4.100.145] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:05:46 (defclass raw-network () ...) 09:05:46 (defclass network (raw-network) ...) 09:05:46 (defmethod s-v-u-c (... (network network) ...) (car ...))) 09:06:44 with the raw-network giving me a way to access the conses 09:07:24 But subclassing would not work wihtout further hassle. 09:08:21 -!- HG` [n=wells@91.108.74.20] has quit [Client Quit] 09:08:22 I think it's better to just define a new slot allocation. 09:08:23 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.216.211] has joined #lisp 09:08:30 if you know the shareable slots in advance, i think I would start without involving MOPpery; just write accessors manually for them 09:08:32 oh, that wasn't a reply to me 09:08:36 phew 09:08:45 Xof: no 09:08:51 it looked tangentially similar 09:09:08 (my statement was a reply to your "share" an hour ago, not to anything that's going on now) 09:09:28 *lichtblau* has no idea about the context of either of those discussions, but that subclassing idea sounds intriguing 09:09:44 Xof: I recently wanted something like that 09:10:10 would be really nice to be able to write (defclass mystream (some-fd-stream-class) ()) (defmethod device-write ((stream mystream) ...)) 09:10:27 this is meeting with more enthusiasm than I expected 09:10:45 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:11:14 my example use case was going to be (defclass conduit-package (conduit-mixin package) ()) / (defclass local-nickname-package (local-nickname-mixin package) ()) etc 09:11:17 m4thias`` [n=user@39.84-48-162.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:11:41 but I'll go with your use cases too 09:12:10 michaelw: I'll ponder it some more. 09:17:09 *tcr* wonders why slime's reader-conditional aware fontifying works so unreliable 09:26:39 -!- m4thias` [n=user@39.84-48-162.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:27:08 -!- addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 09:29:12 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 09:32:16 is there any sbcl supported platform without aio (as in aio_write)? 09:32:40 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 09:32:48 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.216.211] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:33:46 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 09:33:56 mega1: Has MS-Windows this API? 09:34:21 It has the feature I understand, but has it with the aio API? 09:35:03 well, except for windows. Windows is sufficiently different that I can safely exclude it here. 09:35:36 -!- Jabberwock [n=Tumnus_@port-3227.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:36:14 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1E0E.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:42:52 dys` [n=andreas@p5B314936.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:09 as long as you are happy excluding 90% all users.. 09:47:42 % ^ of a 09:48:28 90% of sbcl users are on windows? 09:48:51 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B313FEB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:49:05 nop, computer users.. I'd say for SBCL it's the other way around 09:49:49 so, what was your point? 09:50:46 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:12 -!- schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:57:16 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:57:49 does the aio_* stuff "actually work"..? (i know this might seem as a strange question, but some of the networking APIs out there seem kinda broken... ) 09:57:59 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 09:58:25 or, uh, this might not even be for networking (yet?) .. 09:58:29 heh :) 10:02:01 -!- ASau` [n=user@77.246.231.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:03:51 jewel [n=jewel@41.242.183.106] has joined #lisp 10:04:02 lnostdal: it's hard to find info on what's supported. I think linux can do aio on sockets. 10:06:08 ok, if your goal is to avoid threads when doing sockets and networking i'd look at epoll .. that is a safe bet; i know it "actually works"..heh.. and others use it too .. like lighttpd etc. .. also, the lisp lib. iolib has a wrapper around epoll (and will use kqueue as a replacement for epoll on bsd) 10:07:32 but it's a mess tbh. .. everything seems to be in a constant state of change with in-betweens and compromises everywhere :) 10:07:46 my goal is to write a i/o multiplexer that works with any kind of file 10:08:00 but it's really a mess: 10:08:15 ok 10:08:26 O_NONBLOCK is broken, aio not quite portable (?) 10:09:32 mega1: but please, make it work with aio if it's available... :D 10:09:49 in-code-we-trust [n=Miranda@213.129.54.27] has joined #lisp 10:10:10 (will help if anyone will ever get to porting SBCL to VMS) 10:10:17 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.136.41] has joined #lisp 10:10:20 hah 10:11:38 -!- Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.35.12] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:11:56 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 10:12:47 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:12:59 ASau` [n=user@host161-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 10:14:42 furthermore write() on an fd without O_NONBLOCK is not required return with partial writes 10:15:18 so doing select() to wait until it's writable and the write()ing may block. 10:15:35 wtf 10:15:53 addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 10:15:57 isn't that expected? 10:16:21 for io-multiplexing to work pretty everything's got to be flagged O_NONBLOCK 10:16:40 it is. there's no simple way to guarantee that a write will not block, if the fd isn't O_NONBLOCK. wether it's signalled as writable or not 10:16:51 because things change "under your feet" .. even if you got a message; "there is stuff to do" -- this might change by the time you start doing it .. etc. 10:17:10 yes, I'm aware of the races. 10:18:05 so it's O_NONBLOCK or AIO 10:18:22 but because O_NONBLOCK is unreliable/broken it's AIO 10:18:24 pretty much* 10:18:31 but AIO is likely not portable. 10:18:58 and we are left with a pretty workaround: http://cr.yp.to/unix/nonblock.html 10:19:22 O_NONBLOCK is broken how, exactly ? (I've used it on various systems with some success) 10:19:23 I understand why nobody fixed fd-streams/serve-event yet. 10:19:44 kooll: http://linux.derkeiler.com/Mailing-Lists/Kernel/2007-08/msg06662.html 10:20:02 hm, i think O_NONBLOCK works .. at least for sockets .. epoll isn't portable of course .. but i think select is (?) 10:20:48 O_NONBLOCK works under some circumstances. 10:20:57 mega1: oh, that, right. 10:21:09 for local fd, it's tricky enough 10:22:15 it seems it's not necessarily supported either on all file types. 10:22:32 frank_s_ [n=FrankS@41.145.115.144] has joined #lisp 10:22:40 (not even on all slow devices) 10:22:47 mega1: You can say that it's not your fault for other systems to have broken AIO :P 10:23:03 eventually Open files exclusively with O_DIRECT and O_NONBLOCK... :P 10:24:08 right .. that fd-sharing stuff is just crazy dumb .. heh .. 10:25:39 Using select/epoll/kqueue with blocking io and an interval timer to make syscalls return with EINTR after some time is going to be very satisfying. 10:25:44 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:28:07 mega1: have a look at libevent 10:33:37 kooll: abstracting the multiplexer away does not help much with blocking 10:34:07 however, I see it also has these i/o buffers 10:34:36 may be just what the doctor ordered. 10:34:59 I think that some systems should simply get a proper AIO 10:35:12 c|mell [n=cmell@x250012.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 10:35:13 mega1: and it actually works and is portable. So it's a decent system 10:35:42 afaik linux aio support appeared and disappeared during 2.5.x, leaving much crippled version in 2.6.x 10:36:54 bbl 10:38:19 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:38:21 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:39:10 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 10:42:04 -!- frank_s [n=FrankS@41.145.115.144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:48:39 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 10:48:57 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6C74F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:49:52 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 10:50:32 cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 10:51:02 -!- in-code-we-trust [n=Miranda@213.129.54.27] has left #lisp 10:51:50 My old pprint hacks.. http://objectmix.com/lisp/636193-pretty-printing-lost-art.html 10:53:18 -!- loxs [n=loxs@193.195.73.210] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:57:07 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 10:57:22 ajcc [n=adrian@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:58:54 if i call (slime-compile-and-load-file) on a buffer with (require)s in it, it causes an error unless i evalulate the (require)s separately first. is this expected behaviour? 10:59:38 -!- dys` is now known as dys 10:59:38 ironChicken: You probably have to wrap the (require ...) forms into an appropriate EVAL-WHEN. 11:00:53 benny [n=benny@i577A22C5.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:01:01 ironChicken: require is a function, so calls to it on the toplevel won't be evaluated by the compiler 11:01:24 ironChicken: instead of the eval-when thing, you could use asdf to construct your system from multiple files 11:02:48 i see. is there a normal or standard way of doing it? 11:03:06 yeah, system definition tools like asdf (: 11:03:56 lets you specify the files that make up your thing and dependencies between them, and then lets you compile and load them. slime has a very nice plugin to interface with it, as well. 11:05:24 *ironChicken* reads the howto 11:05:38 ironChicken: http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 11:05:41 http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html is a gentle introduction to the canonical way of making cl projects 11:06:45 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:10:10 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:10:13 I find it is better to read files sequentially than keep track of all dependencies. look at Edi Weiz description 11:10:42 Weitz 11:10:51 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:41 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:13:00 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 11:14:41 http://www.weitz.de/starter-pack/#asdf 11:15:19 Particularly note the ":serial t" 11:18:29 At least for smaller projects.. mine have been at most 20 lisp files.. 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11:21:27 mikezor [n=mikael@c-67e370d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 11:21:27 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:27 dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 11:21:30 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.136.188] has joined #lisp 11:21:47 -!- ASau` [n=user@host161-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Success] 11:22:24 seems or contributers from Jordan are back 11:22:54 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Success] 11:23:35 younder, what do they contribute? 11:24:29 Take a closer look at te output from the .net split they are all Jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net 11:25:42 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:26:59 Oh 11:27:16 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087ABD3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:29:31 eh? none of them in here were from jordan >_> 11:31:19 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 11:31:27 Well, could be a Opera bug. 11:31:34 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:31:40 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 11:37:07 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 11:38:18 schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:39:04 rudi [n=rudi@mail.ist.tu-graz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 11:43:36 vande [n=sdfpme@116.4.100.145] has joined #lisp 11:43:56 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:47:49 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-197-80-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:48:12 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:48:23 afternoon 11:48:32 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 11:48:39 ASau` [n=user@host161-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 11:48:46 yo 11:53:40 what directory does clbuild expect to be in.. ~/ ?? 11:53:42 quick cclan hacker poll. I'm considering digging up my old sf.net password and committing windows shortcut support to asdf.lisp. Any opinions? 11:54:55 -!- schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:55:17 heya, now add_elf_section *really* works 11:55:23 I have it under /usr/share/common-lisp/clbuild 11:55:34 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [] 11:55:43 schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:55:48 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 11:55:55 tomorrow: make save_lisp_and_die use it for executables 11:55:57 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:27 (My impression from past discussions about ASDF development on cclan-devel and elsewhere is that it wouldn't be helpful to change stuff without building some consensus first, hence this careful enquiry here.) 11:56:36 But now the asdf registery doesn't see the source direcory 11:56:50 directory 11:58:04 Anyone? 11:58:19 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:59:06 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 11:59:08 lichtblau: i'm pretty neutral re shortcut behaviour 11:59:10 -!- schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:59:45 for that matter, i would not lose sleep if sbcl started treating shortcuts like symlinks 12:00:09 possibly this is because i have no idea how Real Windows People use shortcuts 12:00:25 They Avoid Them? :P 12:00:38 nikodemus: Nor do windows people 12:00:38 but at least whenever i'm on windows i have a terrible temptation to use them as symlink substitutes 12:00:39 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [Client Quit] 12:00:58 Anyway, reading shortcuts as symlinks would be nice, though marked as "terrible kludge, like all shortcut stuff" 12:01:00 I like the shortcut-handling-in-asdf solution because it's a small piece of portable code that doesn't require such hacks in the implementation itself (but doesn't break if the implementation has them either). 12:02:19 windows has hard and soft links for real linking to files, shortcuts are practically the equivalent of freedesktop's .desktop files 12:02:37 nikodemus: Vista has symbolic links alla Unix. They are completely different for shortcuts. Since they are not available inXp, they are not much used yet. 12:02:57 *p_l* wonders when XP will die 12:02:58 I care about shortcuts (and don't care about NTFS links) because that's what cygwin ln creates. 12:03:07 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.77.122] has joined #lisp 12:03:08 or "ln -s" or whatever 12:03:30 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.136.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:03:39 well, cygwin tries to fit with DOS, not NT 12:03:48 sellout [n=greg@63.107.91.105] has joined #lisp 12:05:26 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:05:36 I won't call Windows 4.x as something really different from DOS, after all :P 12:05:54 shows what you know.. 12:06:22 Arcitectually they are totally different animals. 12:06:33 CLTL 22.1.4 describes "#:" as "uninterned symbol". does that mean it's a way of using symbols that are uninterned? is it an abbreviation for something? (like #' is for (function)? 12:07:03 younder: Yes, I know. I guess my malice towards 9x shows through :) 12:07:26 ironChicken: it's not an abbreviation, it's a reader macro that returns a fresh symbol of that name, not interned into any package 12:07:44 #' is a function intered in *package* set to the last call to (in-package ..) or cl-user is nothing has been set. 12:08:05 #: does not (intern..) the symbol 12:09:01 s/#' is a read-macro which takes a function as a argument 12:09:15 younder: start making sense, please 12:10:21 ok, #'my-func registers my-func in the package *package* 12:10:31 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:11:01 #:my-func does not get registed in any package 12:11:31 Ths is what the function intern does 12:12:06 any clearer? 12:12:12 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:30 A symbol starting with ':' like :key get's interned in the KEYWORD package and should not be assigned any value or function as it is designed to be a list of shared symbol keywords and thus shared among packages. 12:15:15 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250012.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:17:46 the problem with being in a package is that all symbols get interned in them. so instead of a package named :package and thus in KEYWORD or package whch would be in *package* you could use #:package which would not be in any package 12:18:34 So it's a mute point in preventing name clutter 12:20:36 When you say (in-package :name) then 'name' get's intened in the KEYWORD package and *package* is changed to 'name' 12:20:47 clutter is not the point of uninterned symbols, generally speaking 12:21:31 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:21:59 any symbol declared after in-package if gets interned in 'name' unless you explicitly say otherwise 12:23:36 Note the output of (gensym) always starts with #: 12:24:04 Since we're on the topic, is there some way to keep, for example, misspelled symbols from being interned? Other than UNINTERNing them by hand. 12:24:25 in english: gensym returns unintended symbols 12:24:38 tmh: how would you define misspelled? 12:25:21 Misspelled relative to the actual symbol that is set to something. 12:25:25 lock adding new symbols unless done through some special means? 12:25:32 tmh: implementations with package-locks can prohibit interning 12:26:12 Ok, I've seen package-locks advertised, but never bothered to actual read the description of what they did. 12:26:40 In other words even if two gensymed symbols looked the same, that is they had same name, they would be seen as different by 'EQ' 12:31:14 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:23 So it is fine in macros: (let ((name (gensym)) `(setf ,name 2)) because you are substituting the exact position (address), not the name 12:31:37 Whom are you talking to? 12:31:46 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 12:32:01 lichtblau I think 12:32:30 ... 12:32:35 younder: Please do not misuse 'mute' like that. 12:32:51 younder: I don't think lichtblau needs any clarification on this issue. 12:32:57 quite 12:33:26 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:33:34 he asked you to make sense, not ramble endlessly 12:33:35 Well, it was annoying to try to explain anyhow.. Glad to shut up! 12:35:02 ...and he asked that because "#' is a function intered in *package* set to the last call to (in-package ..)" was patent nonsense, as i'm sure you know 12:36:38 topo [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has joined #lisp 12:36:46 hello 12:36:52 one question 12:37:04 if i have "255" how can i convert it to number 255? 12:37:13 nop, #' expands to intern which uses *package* if another package isn't explicitly spesified 12:37:14 clhs parse-integer 12:37:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_parse_.htm 12:37:34 younder: where do you pull that stuff out of? 12:38:23 topo: or use http://sigkill.dk/blog/archives/298-A-uniform-macro-for-converting-objects-to-other-types.html ;) 12:38:37 It tries any package :use'ed as well like :common-lisp which is why #'cdr etc. works 12:39:00 younder: you're pulling more nonsense out of where exactly? 12:39:10 c|mell [n=cmell@x250037.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 12:39:15 younder: #' is not a function, or an abbreviation, which is what ironChicken seemed to be confused about 12:39:29 it's a read macro 12:39:41 YES! 12:39:41 YES! 12:39:49 jdz: don't pay attention, that's his usual behavior 12:40:15 sorry if I confuesed yo 12:40:20 you 12:40:22 one question 12:40:28 i get a wierd behaivor 12:40:29 i'm on a mission here. somebody on the internets is wrong! :) 12:40:38 :) 12:40:38 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442133.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 12:40:40 why do i get 2 numbers? 12:40:41 CL-USER> (parse-integer (first (elt *moco* 3) ) ) 12:40:41 255 12:40:41 3 12:40:45 why do i get 3? 12:40:56 topo: read the function documentation 12:40:56 topo: the second number is the index of the first non-numeric character 12:40:58 the second is the index where the parsing stopped 12:41:00 if i do this: CL-USER> (first (elt *moco* 3) ) 12:41:00 i get this: CL-USER> (first (elt *moco* 3) ) 12:41:01 3 is the length 12:41:01 "255" 12:41:05 oh the length 12:41:07 what nikodemus said :p 12:41:24 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:41:37 but i just want to get the number and not the length 12:41:45 topo: are you aware of multiple values? 12:41:57 i just need the 255 12:42:07 what do you mean stassats? 12:42:10 topo: if you don't care about it, it will be discarded 12:42:10 well, you get it, just don't use the second value 12:42:36 topo: (values (parse-integer "255")) ; but it's useless to use values in programs. Only at the REPL does it make a difference. 12:42:42 this is not python land where you have to explicitly throw stuff away 12:43:06 topo: additional values are gotten for free. 12:43:13 topo: CL can return more than one value, and you can decide whether to use all the returned values 12:43:15 why its useless to use values in programs? 12:43:35 matimago: Uhm it's not useless. For example if your function is supposed to return only one value, but the last form in your function is a call to function which returns multiple values 12:43:38 It depends on how clever your compiler is. 12:44:13 tcr: only if you want to avoid leaking implementation details. But notice how all CL functions are allowed to return additionnal values. 12:44:16 And yeah, there are semantic issues. 12:44:22 nikodemus: how are you intending to read the section at startup? 12:44:42 im trying to do something like this: 12:44:43 (gl:color (parse-integer (first (elt *moco* 3) ) ) (parse-integer (second (elt *moco* 3) ) ) (parse-integer (third (elt *moco* 3) ) )) 12:44:58 matimago: Depends on how you proclaim your functions. 12:45:09 topo: doesn't it work? 12:45:14 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 12:45:30 pretty much like we do know, except instead of getting the offset from the end scan the section header table looking for section called .sbcl.core 12:46:15 topo: (apply #'gl-color (mapcar #'parse-integer *moco*)) is a terser way to do that 12:46:18 no it doenst work 12:46:20 i see all white 12:46:34 ok, you're writing a partial elf parser in c too? 12:46:44 get it already 12:46:45 topo: try typing (trace gl:color) and then run your test case 12:46:52 got it, i mean 12:47:12 what does trace does? 12:47:24 topo: every time the function is called, it'll print a blurb 12:47:27 topo: It prints a message at entry and exit of the traced function. 12:47:32 clhs trace 12:47:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_tracec.htm 12:49:00 mvillene1ve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-131-204.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:49:02 like this? 12:49:03 (trace (gl:color (parse-integer (first (elt *moco* (* i 33)) ) ) (parse-integer (second (elt *moco* i) ) ) (parse-integer (third (elt *moco* i) ) ))) 12:49:19 topo: no: (trace cl:color) (gl:color (parse-integer (first (elt *moco* (* i 33)) ) ) (parse-integer (second (elt *moco* i) ) ) (parse-integer (third (elt *moco* i) ) )) 12:49:36 Notice that you cannot trace functions from the standard CL package. 12:49:58 s/cl:/gl:/ 12:50:17 actually, if :save-runtime-options is used, we could also add a couple of NOBITS sections and use them to allocate the spaces 12:50:29 Sorry, just a typo, I read and though of gl. 12:50:36 i dont get anything 12:50:43 topo: have a look at http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/ce7439d5f2a7e314/965cf535ec4027e3?hl=en&q=trace+shadow+defun+%2B+group:comp.lang.lisp+author:Pascal+author:Bourguignon#965cf535ec4027e3 12:51:17 ummm 12:51:36 topo: if you're not getting anything, then that piece of code is probably not even being called 12:51:54 -!- cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 12:51:54 topo: try typing RET between each forms. 12:52:13 adityo [n=adityo@59.183.32.195] has joined #lisp 12:52:15 topo: wait, wait. you're calling gl:color without actually drawing anything? 12:52:17 Some REPL just evaluate the first form when several are entered at once. 12:52:28 yes im drawing 12:52:31 im using slime 12:52:35 slime-x 12:52:40 and i have the app running 12:52:50 when i run that code my spheres become white 12:53:02 topo: also, TRACE outputs to the *TRACE-OUTPUT* stream. Perhaps it's bound to the slime inferior lisp buffer by slime? 12:53:21 look i have this code: 12:53:22 www.hypermilk.net/estructuras.html 12:53:24 also, if GL:COLOR is inlined, trace is not going to catch it 12:53:24 it's always output to the repl for me 12:53:39 i making simple structures iterating elements 12:54:00 i have a txt with colors and i want to appy a different color to each iterated sphere 12:54:07 yeah, a (declaim (optimize (debug 3) (speed 0) (safety 3))) would probably be useful here 12:54:13 oh noes, not this again 12:54:24 that will not inhibit inlining 12:54:27 hahaha 12:54:35 nikodemus: no? hmph. 12:54:51 it will inhibit maybe-inline, though 12:55:21 (declaim (notinline gl:color)) and then recompile your code 12:55:40 topo: did you figure something out? 12:55:46 (and watch the performance plummet if it was inlined before) 12:56:12 younder, nikodemus: thanks. i think i understand #: a little bit now 12:56:22 no im trying but no luck 12:56:29 wanna see the code so you can better understand me? 12:56:31 minion: tell ironChicken about pcl-book 12:56:31 ironChicken: please see pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 12:56:39 minion: tell topo about lisppaste 12:56:39 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 12:57:00 topo pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79341 12:57:10 please check 12:57:11 http://paste.lisp.org/display/79341 12:57:23 *moco* is my list with colors 12:58:02 topo: just a guess, but turn off color-material 12:58:20 why? 12:58:38 it works fine if i do something like this: (gl:color 220 222 22) 12:58:57 loxs [n=loxs@193.195.73.210] has joined #lisp 12:58:58 cods [n=cods@tuxee.net] has joined #lisp 12:59:15 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:59:24 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-126-133.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:59:27 topo: I think you misunderstood the semantics of TRACE 12:59:32 projections [n=p@85.97.65.44] has joined #lisp 12:59:33 topo: you only need to call #'trace once 12:59:36 topo: You type (trace gl:color) at the REPLO 12:59:39 er, REPL 12:59:43 ok 12:59:45 and then run your code 12:59:50 you don't put it in the code itself 13:00:03 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.250.121] has joined #lisp 13:00:15 the code is running 13:00:23 i just did (trace gl:color) 13:00:27 but nothing happens 13:00:27 -!- jewel [n=jewel@41.242.183.106] has quit [Success] 13:00:43 nikodemus: thanks. i've read quite a bit of it. but only as far as the chapter on conditions and restarts 13:01:07 topo: it probably is inlined, as nikodemus said. Type (declaim (notinline gl:color)) and recompile the function 13:01:23 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:01:38 <_3b> only the last call to gl:color in that loop has any effect 13:01:50 <_3b> oops, nevermind, misread the parens 13:01:58 ironChicken: Sorry for my somewhat muddled description, I did't fully undertand your problem 13:02:24 so you mean to run this: (declaim (notinline gl:color)) 13:02:33 at the repl and then run the code again? 13:02:36 -!- mvillene1ve is now known as mvilleneuve 13:02:40 younder: that's ok. i think i got the general gist. 13:03:02 topo: and then compile the code again 13:03:06 topo: and then run it 13:03:12 topo: compile with (declaim (optimize (debug 3)) 13:03:31 should i put that on my code? 13:03:39 topo: no, just at the repl 13:04:10 topo: also, the (elt *moco* (* i 33)) looks suspiciously out of place 13:04:19 oh i got stuff like this: 13:04:20 0: CL-OPENGL:COLOR returned NIL 13:04:20 0: (CL-OPENGL:COLOR 250 255 255) 13:04:21 0: CL-OPENGL:COLOR returned NIL 13:04:21 0: (CL-OPENGL:COLOR 249 255 255) 13:04:21 0: CL-OPENGL:COLOR returned NIL 13:04:22 0: (CL-OPENGL:COLOR 255 255 255) 13:04:24 0: CL-OPENGL:COLOR returned NIL 13:04:26 0: (CL-OPENGL:COLOR 248 255 255) 13:04:28 0: CL-OPENGL:COLOR returned NIL 13:04:29 that's enough spam 13:04:30 0: (CL-OPENGL:COLOR 246 255 255) 13:04:32 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-253.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 13:04:32 0: CL-OPENGL:COLOR returned NIL 13:04:34 0: (CL-OPENGL:COLOR 255 255 255) 13:04:36 0: CL-OPENGL:COLOR returned NIL 13:04:38 sorry 13:04:46 -!- adityo_ [n=adityo@59.183.51.16] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:05:03 it looks like you're specifying almost white the whole time 13:05:04 topo: Use paste.lisp.org for pastes longer than two, or three lines. 13:05:10 topo: so you see each call to color and the result it returned. It seems to be returning always NIL. 13:05:30 why nil? 13:05:33 how can i fix that? 13:05:38 topo: you don't need to fix that 13:05:56 topo: type (untrace) so it won't do that again 13:06:06 topo: 255 255 255 is white - your code seems to work ok 13:07:06 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250037.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:09:13 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 13:10:40 splittist` [n=dmurray@146-85.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 13:11:46 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@61-50.76-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:12:11 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 13:12:20 -!- splittist` is now known as splittist 13:12:25 -!- rudi [n=rudi@mail.ist.tu-graz.ac.at] has quit ["Client exciting"] 13:14:05 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [] 13:15:28 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@216.165.144.151] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:17:03 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit [Client Quit] 13:18:09 -!- tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:18:21 tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:47 TheLoop [n=user@78.33.52.101] has joined #lisp 13:19:37 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-143-117.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:21:06 stassats: What email client do you use? 13:21:22 willb [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 13:21:28 -!- konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:21:50 tcr: various, gnus, gmail's web interface 13:22:05 why? 13:22:10 because your patch was attached as octet-stream but x-diff before iirc 13:22:43 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 13:22:49 I'm pretty sure I had that syntax-table in there before but removed it because I thought it was not necessary anymore 13:23:21 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 13:23:37 -!- projections [n=p@85.97.65.44] has quit [] 13:24:07 -!- pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 13:24:11 Question, I dont even know if it's possible but how in Emacs can I pull back an entire say, function I typed...not just the last line? 13:24:14 i got yet a couple of patches regarding type declarations 13:24:50 hrr4: Emacs certainly not 13:24:58 stassats: what patches? 13:25:01 what does it mean to pull back a function? 13:25:17 but you can do fmakunbound 13:25:24 say i need to edit a function i created 13:25:29 but why if do this : (gl:color (parse-integer (first (elt *moco* (+ i 222)) ) ) (parse-integer (second (elt *moco* (+ i 222) )) ) (parse-integer (third (elt *moco* (+ i 222)) ))) 13:25:32 could i pull it all back? 13:25:35 im still getting all white? 13:25:38 Or there is a quivalent SLIME command 13:25:46 tcr: to make (proclaim '(vector ...)) behave like (declare (vector ...)) 13:25:47 ic 13:26:08 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 13:26:20 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 13:26:28 Interestingly in my 3.0-alfa version you can have it undefine all definitions you deleted from the source file 13:26:46 in arglists, i mean 13:26:56 o.o nice 13:30:03 hugod [n=hugod@69.70.138.86] has joined #lisp 13:30:29 stassats: Right, that's a bug. More interesting would be to get it to work in TYPEP 13:30:50 and in the 13:31:21 but i got my internet working.. 13:31:36 topo: because you are passing a white color to gl:color 13:32:00 no, if i do this: 13:32:01 (gl:color (parse-integer (first (elt *moco* (+ i 1222)) ) ) (parse-integer (second (elt *moco* (+ i 1222) )) ) (parse-integer (third (elt *moco* (+ i 1222))))) 13:32:01 (gl:translate -2 3 6) 13:32:09 i get 242, 233, 122 13:32:13 but i still getting white 13:32:30 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:41 topo: what do you get if you enter that into the REPL, except replacing gl:color with LIST 13:32:54 How many colors have you set your X system to display? 13:33:09 stassats: where's that thing-at-point 'sexp in slime-parse.el? 13:33:09 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Operation timed out] 13:33:35 It's a shot in the dark I admitt. But it must be ruled out. 13:33:54 younder: going to party like it's 1999? 13:33:54 ummm 13:34:13 gl color with list? 13:34:17 what do you mean dlowe? 13:34:26 tcr: slime-parse-sexp-at-point -> slime-sexp-at-point -> which is in slime.el 13:34:34 topo: enter this at the repl: (list (parse-integer (first (elt *moco* (+ i 1222)) ) ) (parse-integer (second (elt *moco* (+ i 1222) )) ) (parse-integer (third (elt *moco* (+ i 1222))))) 13:34:48 ok 13:34:49 My is set to use Cairo and 24 bit color and 8 bit opaquity 13:35:03 Mine 13:35:04 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:35:14 -!- hrr4 [n=hrr4@p5081B80C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["leaving"] 13:35:22 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:35:34 i get this: 13:35:35 CL-USER> (list (parse-integer (first (elt *moco* (+ 1 1222)) ) ) (parse-integer (second (elt *moco* (+ 1 1222) )) ) (parse-integer (third (elt *moco* (+ 1 1222))))) 13:35:36 (244 255 223) 13:35:51 It's almost white. 13:36:00 notice i change i with 1 because i only works inside dotimes 13:36:07 But wit insuficcient spects i thought I should ask.. 13:37:02 dlowe annotated #79341 "saner draw function" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79341#1 13:37:02 notice that you can embed your forms in a let to avoid changing them (let ((i 1)) (list (parse-integer (first (elt *moco* (+ i 1222)) ) ) (parse-integer (second (elt *moco* (+ i 1222) )) ) (parse-integer (third (elt *moco* (+ i 1222)))))) 13:37:06 stassats: bleh that sucks 13:37:40 Ah, I was thinking how lovely it would be if OR returned all of the values of its last form, and ... it does :) 13:37:51 i think all my colors are white 13:38:07 that would indeed be a problem 13:39:04 -!- adityo [n=adityo@59.183.32.195] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:39:10 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@93-138-11-12.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:39:17 adityo [n=adityo@59.183.32.195] has joined #lisp 13:41:02 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 13:41:12 i changet 13:41:15 changed 13:41:16 look 13:41:17 CL-USER> (list (parse-integer (first (elt *moco* 1) ) ) (parse-integer (second (elt *moco* 1 )) ) (parse-integer (third (elt *moco* 1)))) 13:41:18 (55 255 255) 13:41:25 but im still getting all white 13:42:49 c|mell [n=cmell@x250024.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 13:42:54 that's because list doesn't change the gl color 13:44:05 oh i need to normalize values 13:44:18 *stassats* get lost while splitting diff on several patches, damn cvs 13:44:20 opengl color goes from 0 to 1 13:44:26 and im using 0 to 255 13:44:32 topo: isn't that gl:colorf? 13:44:50 where does clbuild save the fasls when you dumpcore? 13:44:50 its gl:color 13:45:04 dlowe why did you change the code? 13:45:09 i couldn't find in clbuild directory 13:45:12 that saner version? which is the difference? 13:45:28 I am interested in this too 13:45:29 topo: it does the same thing with less code 13:45:44 but you dont use dotimes 13:45:47 droogi: next to the .lisp files 13:45:52 topo: you have to use dotimes? 13:45:53 which is better in terms of cpu consumption? 13:45:58 the source is in /clbuild/source 13:46:01 although I'm more and more inclined to support asdf-binary-locations after all 13:46:07 topo: dolist is better. much, much better. 13:46:14 dotimes is flexible for live coding 13:46:30 topo: every time you use elt, it has to start at the beginning of the list and iterate n times 13:46:44 topo: (since you're using a list to store the colors) 13:47:11 lichtblau: you are the author of clbuild? 13:47:14 but when I tired to access the code withe a ./clbuild slime it fails to update the ASDF registry of direcories 13:47:15 oh i see , so you mean i iterate too many times with dotimes? 13:47:27 not the original author (that would be lukego), but one of the maintainers, yes 13:48:37 lichtblau: thanks for the great work then :) it is a really delightful project especially for me:) 13:48:49 I still recomend 'iterate' for serious coding 13:49:10 because it is macro based and extensible 13:49:30 You won't be painting youself into a corner so to seak 13:49:35 speak 13:50:43 lichtblau: by the way would it work if i move the whole clbuild dir that i setup in a debian system to another one? 13:50:49 -!- adityo [n=adityo@59.183.32.195] has quit ["leaving"] 13:51:10 no 13:51:10 one question 13:51:12 i mean to another debian based 13:51:13 if i do this : 13:51:14 (list (/ (parse-float (first (elt *moco* 1) ) ) 255 ) (parse-integer (second (elt *moco* 1 )) ) (parse-integer (third (elt *moco* 1)))) 13:51:15 (11/51 255 255) 13:51:26 ii got 11/51 , why is that? 13:51:33 how can i get the float value? 13:51:50 droogi: still no 13:52:09 thanks :) 13:52:33 topo: gl:color should do a proper translation 13:52:49 topo: (coerce 11/5 'single-float) 13:53:12 (type-of 11/5) -> RATIO 13:53:13 topo: if you're going to normalize, though, you need to divide them all by 255.0 13:53:29 oh, that's what you did. :p 13:54:19 Athas [n=athas@shop3.distlab.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 13:54:25 -!- prip [n=_prip@host254-129-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:54:27 so i have foo.asd in ~/foo. when i try (asdf:oss 'asdf:load 'foo) it says it can't find the component FOO. i tried (sb-posix:chdir) to #P"/home/richard/foo/" and setting *default-pathname-defaults* but neither made it work. Eventually i (push)ed #P"/home/richard/foo/" onto asdf:*central-repository* and it worked. 13:54:28 prip [n=_prip@host254-129-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:56:05 i got it working 13:56:14 yes dlowe 13:56:15 droogi: wouldn't have worked until 10 min ago, because the symlinks in systems/ were absolute, but I just pushed a patch for that :-) 13:56:17 i made this and worked 13:56:18 (gl:color (/ (parse-integer (first (elt *moco* i) ) ) 255) (/ (parse-integer (second (elt *moco* i )) ) 255) (/ (parse-integer (third (elt *moco* i)))) 255) 13:57:37 -!- tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:58:04 ejs2 [n=eugen@63.251.108.100] has joined #lisp 14:01:17 is anybody here working with lisp and opengl? 14:01:30 -!- ASau [n=user@host162-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["Off!"] 14:01:54 -!- ASau` [n=user@host161-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:02:38 tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:25 lisp and opengl, that'd be an interesting combination...would love to try that out sometime. 14:04:17 yes its cool 14:05:20 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:05:34 I've done a bit of it, but it's been years 14:08:11 frito [n=keith@81.146.26.208] has joined #lisp 14:08:46 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:37 In a threaded application, what are the downsides of assuming that a WITHOUT-INTERRUPTS block consisting of simple arithmetic operations will occur in an atomic manner? 14:12:54 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:13:01 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:14 wchogg [n=wchogg@216.165.144.151] has joined #lisp 14:13:33 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:13:46 droogi` [n=user@88.238.203.107] has joined #lisp 14:14:13 legumbre` [n=user@r190-135-55-227.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 14:15:02 vy: the only downside is that it's not atomic with regards to other threads 14:15:18 Great! 14:15:35 does it buy you anything? 14:16:50 I'm just upgrading some timestamp values in an object, and in the remaining parts of the code I'm checking the state of the work by using these timestamps values. I don't want 'em to be set in an inconsistent state. 14:16:57 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-25.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:17:30 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-72-21.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:17:54 deliana [n=deliana@ABordeaux-158-1-117-18.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:17:56 OK lichtblau, how do I intstall your new cbuild without interfering with my existing one? 14:18:10 clbuild 14:18:14 vy: use a lock or compare-and-swap instead 14:18:54 without-interrupts has nothing to do with synchronization in sbcl -- it only affects signal handling 14:18:59 vy: is the object used in interruptions? 14:19:02 Cuz I got a couple og Gigs riding on the old une 14:19:15 lol 14:19:33 -!- droogi [n=user@88.238.42.130] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:19:50 (where interruption is an asynchronous event like SIGINT or SIGALRM) 14:19:54 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:21 nikodemus: I wish I could use CAS, portability reasons... What would WITH-LOCK-HELD buy me if I cannot guarantee two fields are both updated, or none? 14:20:35 que? 14:20:47 why can't you guarantee that? 14:21:20 I might have received an interrupt at the middle of (setf a b c d). 14:21:29 You know mathematical logic? 14:21:58 or would you prefer a hand from God ;) 14:22:00 the easiest way to update multiple fieds is to put those fieds in a separate object, and when updating cons up a new object with the updated values, and store it in the slot (or whereever) in question 14:22:24 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@63.251.108.100] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:22:32 no locks or interrupt tricks needed then 14:22:45 Is that guaranteed to be atomic? 14:22:57 on intel architectures, yes 14:22:58 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@76.104.2.182] has joined #lisp 14:23:10 atomic, yes. Visible to other threads, maybe. 14:23:17 right 14:23:19 Hmm, don't you need a lock prefix on some of those? 14:23:21 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 14:23:41 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483A6BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:43 no 14:23:53 other threads may see the old value for a while, but if it's a timestamp then it should not matter 14:23:59 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit [Client Quit] 14:24:29 if you wish to ensure that no-one has updated while you were building the new object, use CAS to replace the old one 14:24:33 I think on setting an aligned word is atomic on sbcl platforms (?). 14:24:36 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 14:24:38 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl392.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 14:24:41 yes 14:25:05 ok, I was confused by the "on intel" comment 14:25:24 that was re. ordering reads and writes 14:26:10 on some hypothetical weakly ordered architecture another thread might be able to see the new object in an uninitialized state without a barrier in between 14:26:20 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 14:26:21 but that's a non-issue on x86oids 14:26:48 yup 14:27:09 schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:27:49 apply what's rest.. 14:28:09 though sometimes i think we should add ATOMIC macro that can wrap either read or write, that just adds a LOCK prefix, in case you want other threads to see the changed value ASAP 14:28:23 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@146-85.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:28:38 -!- jlf` [n=user@68.183.235.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:28:47 ...and then the same ATOMIC macro could also deal with INCF, etc, without a need for a separate ATOMIC-INCF 14:29:34 but i don't know if there are too many real uses cases where LOCK:MOV is really needed 14:30:02 atomic-swap would be nice though (lock:xchg) 14:30:13 ok, dinnertime! bye 14:30:16 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:30:50 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-30-129.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:31:03 que aproveche 14:31:46 davazp [n=user@79.153.148.56] has joined #lisp 14:34:58 -!- roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 14:35:05 i don't seem to be able to use self-defined types in cffi:with-foreign-object 14:37:47 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:38:39 -!- loxs [n=loxs@193.195.73.210] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:40:45 aerique: what kind of error do you get? 14:41:13 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@student165-171.hampshire.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:43:55 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 14:45:09 lichtblau: i figured it out, thanks :) 14:45:34 -!- droogie [n=user@88.238.42.130] has quit [Success] 14:52:30 -!- frito [n=keith@81.146.26.208] has quit [Client Quit] 14:52:41 milanj [n=milan@93.87.141.254] has joined #lisp 14:53:11 has anyone ever figured out who the eval-bot that was here some time ago belonged to? 14:53:26 madnificent: Shouldn't be too hard to write your own. 14:53:29 ** clearly the answer is yes, as there is an owner... but who it it be? 14:53:33 nyef pasted "Win32 cygwin contrib build fix" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79345 14:53:49 madnificent: it was figured at the time the bot was here 14:54:09 but i don't remember his name now 14:54:11 mega1: LOCK MOV provides an implicit barrier, right? 14:54:16 dkcl: I don't really want to write that in a way that secures my system. Its just that topo would like the bot to be in #cl-gardeners... I think it might fit there 14:54:23 my bet would be it's starting with #\k 14:54:36 pkhuong: a full barrier, yes. 14:54:44 looks quite explicit from here 14:54:47 madnificent: Heh, I guess it makes sense. 14:55:16 nyef: is it risky for the current release? 14:55:24 stassats: albeit very helpful, still very broad :) 14:55:37 implicitly, as part of the LOCK MOV package deal ;) Do the docs tell whether it's preferable to LOCK MOV or to MOV + barrier (if they're even comparable)? 14:55:48 madnificent: you might find it in the logs 14:56:09 stassats: yes, I was breaking my had at this very moment for the month in which the bot was here... 14:56:21 pkhuong: do you mean in terms of CPU or in terms of the compiler moving instructions up and down? 14:56:24 pkhuong: I can't recall seeing such a discussion. 14:56:28 it used clisp and forked on each request 14:56:43 wow 14:57:02 and also used strace to filter syscalls 14:57:11 I suppose that LOCK MOV is better than putting two full fences around it 14:57:15 stassats: do you have a rough idea about the month? I don't store that kind of data 14:57:23 if only by being more concise. 14:57:32 stassats: and, if possible the name of the bot (or something that was in it) 14:57:37 luis: for the CPU. We have yet to specify a memory model for SBCL (: 14:58:32 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 14:59:18 pkhuong: I started on it. 14:59:29 lost the first draft somewhere 15:00:02 pkhuong: I was reading intel's memory model docs the other day and I was a bit surprised that there are a lot of ordering guarantees. (e.g. stores are not reordered with other stores, nor loads) What sort of situation are you guys considering that'd need a LOCK MOV? 15:00:35 I bet he's optimizing rw locks 15:00:52 no, just thinking about the relevance of lock:mov. 15:01:38 luis: which one did you read? They used to have an uselessly weak model that had nothing to do with reality (so everyone just ignored it). They updated with a saner one some time last year. 15:01:49 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [Client Quit] 15:01:54 pkhuong: I read the new improved one. 15:02:19 stassats: was that bot before or after new year? 15:02:41 madnificent: that i don't remember 15:02:43 I tried to watch the Google Tech presentation but the speaker was incredibly boring. 15:03:30 LOCK MOV would be useful to guarantee visibility, and probably to help guarantee progress if used in conjunction with other regular writes 15:03:40 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@76.104.2.182] has quit [] 15:04:16 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 15:04:22 -!- davazp [n=user@79.153.148.56] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:05:19 nyef annotated #79345 "mega1: Probably not risky, as it obviously only affects cygwin, but that's a call for Xof to make." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79345#1 15:05:41 pkhuong: after reading the GHC parallel GC paper, I could swear they use CAS just for visibility. But I'm probably wrong. 15:05:58 -!- free_thinker [n=willijar@eas-nw709pc01.aston.ac.uk] has left #lisp 15:06:10 it can be used for that 15:06:29 on intel, at least. Dunno about other platforms. 15:07:06 lock mov may be a bit lighter hammer 15:07:25 although it's the lock and not the mov that will dominate 15:07:38 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 15:08:12 madnificent: ok, it's lisp-eval-bot by kuwabara 15:08:23 i said it started with k 15:08:49 stassats: why the whole guessing game? 15:08:51 smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:17 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:10 stassats: ah briliant, I was still fetching the archives :D 15:10:42 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 15:10:44 i started from 2009 and it was at 09.01.11 15:10:58 msg kuwabara could you msg me back when you're here. It could be nice to have your lisp-eval-bot in #cl-gardeners. I assume it will be accepted there because of the low traffic :) 15:11:02 doh! 15:11:26 HG` [n=wells@91.108.74.20] has joined #lisp 15:11:40 stassats: I started from 2008-12 and went backwards :P 15:12:28 *stassats* thinks about downloading all logs 15:12:52 stassats: the sexps syntax is quite nifty... could be handy for processing 15:12:57 -!- wentbackward [n=wentback@n219077065141.netvigator.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:13:08 -!- FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:13:29 ccl logs? i used tunes logs, they're more complete 15:14:16 -!- dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit ["Be back later"] 15:15:34 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 15:15:42 ejs [n=eugen@126-178-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:07 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 15:17:18 nyef / mega1: I don't object to that patch 15:17:26 today better than tomorrow 15:18:36 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 15:18:44 Xof: hey. Did you see my question yesterday? 15:19:15 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:19:59 no 15:25:50 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 15:27:03 kruth [n=chatzill@kruth.org] has joined #lisp 15:27:38 -!- beach`` is now known as beach 15:28:17 Good afternoon. 15:28:29 dwave [n=ask@212251243172.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 15:30:08 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:32:12 good afternoon beach 15:32:23 hey madnificent, what's up? 15:33:02 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 15:33:08 nyef annotated #79345 "Xof: I'll commit it before tomorrow, then." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79345#2 15:33:37 -!- kruth [n=chatzill@kruth.org] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.9/2009040821]"] 15:33:46 that's a nice irc client 15:34:19 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:33 hello beach 15:34:39 beach: looking at clos and how it could be extendable :) I'm impressed 15:35:07 mvilleneuve: OK, you can tell me what you intened to tell me yesterday. I am taking off for the day. 15:35:11 beach: have the students been active? 15:35:18 madnificent: It is impressive, yes. 15:35:26 madnificent: Indeed, some students have been quite active. 15:35:50 is the work they do published? 15:36:00 madnificent: It is pleasing to see at least one student who can write acceptable English, who doesn't mind doing so, who can be polite, and who is interested in what I am teaching. 15:36:14 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:17 madnificent: Though one of those per year (out of 100) is probably all I can hope for. 15:36:33 -!- dwave [n=ask@212251243172.customer.cdi.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 15:36:55 *madnificent* whishes he wasn't here (TCL, do they want to kill us?!) 15:37:42 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 15:38:03 -!- kidd [n=kidd@60.Red-79-150-112.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:38:09 Xof: ah, well, the question was: what do you think about representing non-characters and/or unassigned characters using CL characters? 15:38:43 kruth [n=chatzill@70.85.16.216] has joined #lisp 15:40:01 mega1 annotated #79345 "this is a fabulous forum software" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79345#3 15:40:53 mega1: logs for the second way 15:44:26 -!- schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:48:48 -!- Beket [n=stathis@adsl-253-222.diodos.auth.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:51:27 -!- Featureanini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:51:27 -!- michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:51:27 -!- ineiros [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:51:27 -!- ChopperDave [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:51:27 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:51:27 -!- _dima [i=dima@torch.blackened.com] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:51:30 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@74.125.59.1] has joined #lisp 15:52:24 loxs [n=loxs@fw1.netmania-it.com] has joined #lisp 15:53:16 ineiros [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 15:53:37 Featureanini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 15:53:39 _dima [i=dima@torch.blackened.com] has joined #lisp 15:54:18 ChopperDave [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:55:47 -!- smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [] 15:56:12 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:56:47 blitz_ [n=blitz@2002:8d4c:3001:48:216:d3ff:feb0:58e0] has joined #lisp 15:57:58 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:33 -!- ejs [n=eugen@126-178-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:58:48 -!- loxs [n=loxs@fw1.netmania-it.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:59:27 I just dumped some code of mine on github: http://github.com/blitz/gdb-remote (a library to speak the GNU Debugger remote protocol) and http://github.com/blitz/cl-raw1394 (a beginning of a libraw1394 binding). perhaps it is useful to anyone. 15:59:58 sounds like fun. 16:00:09 byproducts of my thesis 16:01:12 both need some cleaning up. but the gdb-remote stuff is pretty solid I hope :) 16:02:09 lichtblau: Just noticed the job you posted for Berlin and I have a question orthogonal to the job. Why is telecommuting not an option? 16:04:05 not surprised it isn't, telecommuting tends to be pretty inefficient 16:05:45 Hmm, I'm dragging us off topic, but I'm always a little surprised by that notion. I'm interested in this because I'm surprised that in the so-called "knowledge economy" physical presence is still necessary. 16:05:48 demmeln [n=demmeln@atradig121.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 16:06:12 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:06:18 jsnell: tell that to my wife! 16:06:36 hi. what is the simplest way to realize pointers in common lisp? 16:06:46 demmeln: CONS cells 16:06:49 pointers to objects 16:06:54 ok 16:07:13 demmeln: semantically, in Lisp, every value is a pointer to something. 16:07:28 tmh: I guess we just don't have much experience with people doing telecommuting. It's a small company and person-to-person communication has been essential for many projects in the past. 16:07:36 tmh: I can't say this is the actual motive, but physical presence produces gobs of context that if you tried to reproduce on a screen would be extremely distracting or accumulating 16:07:45 Having said that, at least one freelancer has worked for us from his home office some years ago, and I'm always interested in hearing from people who could work with us, so while it's not an option for this position, feel free to contact us if you think that you might be available for other projects. 16:08:57 rme [n=rme@70.104.98.143] has joined #lisp 16:09:49 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:10:10 (trace eval) kills slime if i try to evaluate an atom, but slime dies if i type an open-paren even before i try to evaluate, is it because of a feature of slime like paren-matchin or whatever? 16:10:26 kpreid: I totally appreciate the context and nonverbal forms of communication. To me, that is probably the biggest issue. I'm not convinced it can't be compensated for, though. 16:10:35 dkcl [n=dkcl@182.66.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:10:48 beach: what is was looking for is a way to pass an argument to a function and have its value changed as a side effect. cons cells of course work, but i was woundering if you could realize single pointers easily 16:11:26 demmeln: That's not usually how we do it. Try using macros instead. 16:12:22 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Client Quit] 16:12:23 skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has joined #lisp 16:12:33 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 16:12:42 lichtblau: Thanks, I'll look over your company and see if I have any skills that can contribute. Before I start actively seeking contracts, though, I need to finish my PhD. I wanted your feedback on the telecommuting issue because I've encounter it frequently in engineering analysis, which I'm a little surprised by. 16:12:44 beach: i know its not optimal. I would need it for a dirty hack. 16:12:57 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:13:33 demmeln: I would avoid dirty hacks if I were you. 16:13:49 demmeln: give us more context and we'll give you a prettier solution 16:14:53 -!- cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:15:22 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.194.81] has joined #lisp 16:15:41 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:15:43 demmeln: Dijkstra would not approve. 16:16:01 tmh: telecommuting is ok in small doses, but people (even programmers) are social creatures, and function better when they're part of a group rather than just sitting for 8h in their home office week after week 16:16:06 tmh: ;) 16:16:29 tmh: Though, after spending some time with Dijkstra, I know he was quite picky about the things he approved of. 16:16:47 i'm trying to get some functionality out of legacy code. so i'm not free to do whats pretty. 16:17:06 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-131-204.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:17:21 turns out the thing actually supports returning values, so its all good 16:17:29 jsnell: My wife has a problem with hierarchy, and she does *much* better on her own. And I believe management finds her *much* more effective at a distance. 16:18:04 demmeln: some of the idioms in other languages are solved with multiple values in Lisp. 16:19:18 jsnell: In addition, her situation means her company pays her travel expenses to go to Paris quite frequently, to the US occasionally, and sometimes to other interesting places. 16:19:49 beach: hmm. you've spent time with dijkstra?! 16:20:02 hypno: yeah, during my year in Austin some 10 years ago now. 16:20:27 hypno: not on a daily basis, but we had some very interesting discussions on a regular basis. 16:20:34 beach: oh, heh, cool. was you a lisper back then? did he approve of it? (i have a feeling cl wasnt quite his thing, but..) 16:20:54 fair enough, people are different. but it's certainly not just a matter of saying "it's an information economy, no need for colocation" 16:21:04 beach: sure thing. But thats useful only if i can return values. In this case im calling some crazy macro of a middleware and just wasn't sure it even returned a value i could control. 16:21:14 at gave up coding lisp as a job largely since I didn't want to continue working remotely 16:21:15 -!- rme [n=rme@70.104.98.143] has left #lisp 16:21:18 hypno: Actually, I was a Scheme programmer back then. I only discovered Common Lisp then, and then decided to learn it for real when I came back to Bordeaux. 16:21:28 jsnell: I agree with that argument. But, I frequently work with a consultant that does just that and I'm trying to develop a consulting business along the same lines. 16:22:11 jsnell: There's a disconnect between what I think is a acceptable tele-commuting assignment and what potential clients are willing to farm out remotely. 16:22:20 jsnell: Also, when we spent a year in TLOTLWC, nobody noticed the difference other than me, in that her phone meetings were at 4 in the morning as opposed to 16:00. 16:22:33 I've been more or less remote for 2 years as our regional office scattered to the wind. Getting back the commute time/energy is useful, working with - and ordering around! people I have never met can be brutal after a couple of years 16:22:51 HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 16:23:26 jsnell: Ilog has a long history of telecommuting, because they always wanted the best staff, and so they skimped on geographic limitations. It seems to work for them. 16:24:35 It takes trust of course - however a remote senior person cannot watch over new junior guys remotely 16:24:38 beach: it remains to be seen how IBM will handle that 16:25:03 BrianRice` [n=water@98.225.51.246] has joined #lisp 16:26:04 pkhuong: It does yes. But my wife is more that 60 now, so if she is not pleased with what is offered, she can retire. Besides, she is the only "distinguished writer" of Ilog, so it would be fun to see whether IBM would fire her for refusing to go to the Paris office daily (for instance). 16:26:50 pkhuong: Besides, we don't need the money. No kids, no vehicles, solar panels, so no electricity bill, house paid for. 16:27:01 dkcl` [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 16:27:28 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:27:35 -!- dkcl` is now known as dkcl 16:27:48 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:28:04 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:28:20 -!- rolly1975 [n=rory@193.108.78.132] has quit ["The computer fell asleep"] 16:28:55 pkhuong: In other ways, we have an excellent bargaining position. 16:29:34 dto [n=user@98.118.1.212] has joined #lisp 16:30:01 pkhuong: Imagine my wife getting fired. She could spend her time documenting Common Lisp software! :) 16:30:21 you should /plan/ for it. ;) 16:30:30 smolyn [n=smolyn@76.77.66.100] has joined #lisp 16:31:05 beach: are you located in france? 16:31:13 woops 16:31:15 -!- freshbananas is now known as holycow 16:31:30 . 16:31:37 there we go 16:32:37 BrianRice-mb_ [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:11 holycow: Yes, Bordeaux to be more specific. 16:33:16 holycow: why? 16:33:22 -!- BrianRice-mb_ [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:33:51 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:33:59 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 16:34:03 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:34:09 hypno: I have discussed this with her, but the response has been luke-warm at best. 16:34:41 beach: just curious, nothing more. i'll be visiting the south of france one of these years, it's always neat to find people with similar interests 16:34:56 over there i mean 16:34:58 beach: heh. 16:35:13 holycow: sure, unless there are too many of you, you can book our guest room. 16:35:28 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:38 holycow: it is adequate for two people for a short (couple of weeks) period of time. 16:35:38 that wasn't my intent for the question, but i will keep that in mind :) 16:35:48 -!- dto [n=user@98.118.1.212] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:36:29 holycow: Bah, we have had Americans call us up and say they know a friend of a friend of ours, and can they please stay for free for a few months. 16:36:46 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 16:37:00 holycow: I hear it is even worse for the British people in this region. I am not surprised. 16:37:08 oh hehe 16:37:13 Filthy Americans. :-P 16:37:21 'can they stay for free' 16:37:27 hehe 16:37:27 *tmh* is American, btw. 16:37:45 dto [n=user@98.118.1.212] has joined #lisp 16:38:07 beach: i appreciate the mention, i really wasn't fishing for anything like that 16:38:07 holycow: Some of our British friends actually abandon their house to go elsewere in the summer to avoid all the requests for free room and board. :( 16:38:21 i'm canadian, so i've been meaning to visit the other country of our making 16:38:28 holycow: Of course. I offered. It was an honest offer. 16:38:44 appreciate that sir, MUCH too kind. thank you. 16:39:03 holycow: You are expected to do your part of the cleaning of course :) 16:39:22 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:39:27 holycow: (just kidding, we have a cleaning lady) 16:39:38 hehehe, not a problem either way 16:39:52 i haven't made any plans for this year but i will keep that in mind for sure 16:40:37 beach: Isn't that standard in France, though, having to clean your own hotel room? 16:40:37 holycow: there is a danger though. You will have to sample all the wines in the wine-fridge that my wife gave me for my birthday. 16:40:51 tmh: I have never seen such a hotel room in France. 16:41:04 beach: oh god. i'm an easy drunk. a few sips and i'm fast asleep 16:41:05 :) 16:41:09 beach: I'm yanking your chain. ;-) 16:42:08 tmh: Ah, like the American geology professor on visit here who told his grad student who was going to come visit to pack lots of toilet paper because "they don't have that here" and he did. :) 16:42:11 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:18 there was a comment on lisp by Dijkstra i remember reading somewhere 16:43:08 holycow: You'll have to practice before coming here. 16:43:32 lol, well it is bordeaux, that make sense 16:43:35 hmm yes, "the humble programmer" 72 16:43:35 heh, funny 16:43:55 Is someone talking here right now behind bordeaux-threads by any chance? 16:43:57 beach: That's good. Reminds of the Trans-Pac sailboat race where one of the key concerns is the correct ratio of toilet paper to wine on the boat. 16:43:57 holycow: When I put on Lisp dinners, people usually consume at least 2 bottles of wine per person, and leave around 4 in the morning. The record now is 5 in the morning. 16:44:11 oh god 16:44:14 tmh: I like that:) 16:44:22 heh 16:44:51 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-246.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 16:44:51 Modius: Probably not. 16:45:03 hello 16:45:09 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:12 hello fe[nl]ix 16:45:46 Modius: But I am proud to say that it was probably a direct result of the LSM/RMLL meetings in Bordeaux some 8 or 9 years ago. 16:46:23 I had a patch to make notify-wait work in lispworks; but didn't get them the patch properly (diff file? what's that to an MS enterprise monkey?) then never heard back. 16:46:48 hi beach 16:46:53 holycow: Otherwise, I can always give the guest room to someone like slyrus_ who would very much enjoy that particular exercise. 16:47:07 indeed 16:47:09 hahaha 16:47:18 fe[nl]ix: How are things for you these days? 16:47:21 beach: what is «LSM/RLL» ? 16:47:51 fe[nl]ix: Libre Software Meeting / Rencontres Mondiales de Logiciels Libres. 16:48:30 fe[nl]ix: Bordeaux hosted it the first 5 or so years, and then it rotated in France, doubling the participation each year. 16:49:11 fe[nl]ix: It's great because instead of participants paying a fee, they get paid to participate (provided they have something to say). 16:49:16 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087ABD3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:49:17 nice 16:49:50 fe[nl]ix: so I took charge of the "very high-level programming languages" track, and took advantage of it to invite Lispers. 16:50:27 fe[nl]ix: As it turns out, Bordeaux is again hosting this soon (2010 or 2011, I can't remember), so I *could* do this again. 16:51:50 fe[nl]ix: Not only was LSM/RMLL when Bordeaux threads were thought about, but also the SBCL threads, McCLIM, and lots of other stuff I can't remember. 16:53:53 fe[nl]ix: It was great to be in a room with Xof, gilberth, dan_b, (what's his name again, author of CLISP (damn memory)), rudi, antifuchs, (did I forget someone?), and listen to all those ideas, and then go to a great French restaurant afterwards. 16:54:10 beach: sam steingold ? 16:54:16 nope 16:54:19 before that 16:54:22 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:54:29 haible? 16:54:29 michael stoll ? 16:54:34 bruno haible (: 16:54:37 Bruno Haible. 16:54:40 oh 16:54:41 antifuchs: Thanks. 16:54:57 pkhuong said it first.. couldn't remember at first, myself (: 16:55:03 antifuchs: Your memory is better than mine, who else was there? 16:55:07 and yeah, it was really great 16:55:08 antifuchs: deliana was there of course. 16:55:19 from pcl "Another class of self-evaluating symbols are the keyword symbols--symbols whose names start with :. When the reader interns such a name, it automatically defines a constant variable with the name and with the symbol as the value." 16:55:22 I think mvilleneuve was there for one day 16:55:32 antifuchs: true. 16:55:33 this is not like a defconstant right? 16:55:36 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:55:37 and iban 16:56:11 droogi`: keyword symbols have one constant value - the symbol itself 16:56:24 antifuchs: Yes, we had "visitors" like Iban from time to time, and the students who were working on McCLIM at the time. 16:56:24 clhs keyword 16:56:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_kwd.htm 16:56:35 antifuchs: thanks 16:57:38 antifuchs: I still remember when deliana showed me her CLIM card game. It blew me away, because at the time we didn't have much graphics. 16:57:42 beach: I'm pretty good actually. AT my university the informatics department is pretty much a Java school, with the exception of one single guy who does research in type theory. 16:57:56 he feels kind of lonely so we(a few Math students) convinced him to do a course of typed lambda calculus :D 16:58:18 fe[nl]ix: Excellent initiative! 16:59:06 fe[nl]ix: You should tell these people to apply to Bordeaux. We have several positions available each year! 16:59:30 fe[nl]ix: I wouldn't mind having more Common Lisp people here. 16:59:40 :D 17:00:38 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:00:56 heh, I had a professor here who used to use CL, and tried to tell me that it wasn't worth learning. 17:00:59 which was annoying 17:01:03 beach: only one student of informatics dared to come to the course 17:01:25 fe[nl]ix: how sad! 17:02:10 TDT: would you like to transfer to Bordeaux? 17:02:45 dreadyman [n=anthony@191.128.68-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:08 hi everybody 17:03:51 hello dreadyman 17:03:51 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 17:03:51 I'd love to live in another country, heh. 17:03:51 TDT: enrollment fees are reasonable (150 EUR/year) with full social security (provided you are less than 28 years old). 17:04:00 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:04:03 TDT: but dreadyman can tell you more about this because I have never been a student here, but he currently is. 17:04:11 i have a question about mcclim, i was wondering if it was possible to pass another argument (an object) to the accept method, in order to precise the list of completion 17:04:19 150 euro ayear...holy crap. costs in the U.S. are insane, hah 17:04:32 beach: For foreigners? 17:04:35 TDT: that's what I am telling you. 17:04:48 Modius: I still think that's the case, yes. 17:05:21 beach: are you faculty there? 17:05:31 dreadyman: Hmm, I think what you want is a presentation-method on the type. 17:05:38 TDT: Yes. 17:06:03 euro unis are great if you have a euro passport. 17:06:11 but they're not that inexpensive as a foreign student. 17:06:16 you have to pay no fees in Germany (in some states) 17:06:27 rates are similar to U.S. 17:06:27 ah cool. Yeah, here...this CS dept is not the best unfortunately. It's horrible in the sense that everything is .net/java in the area. I don't know anyone else learning lisp at the moment, and I know a lot of CS people here. 17:06:30 dreadyman: You need to help me out here. There are #lisp-ers that want to come study in Bordeaux, but I don't know what the conditions are. 17:06:30 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:07:03 in fatc the list displayed for the completion is too long, and i would like to pass another argument to accept in order to reduce the list, and eliminate the completion entries that are not valid 17:07:05 even stanford seems to be a java finishing school these days. 17:07:22 TDT: Let me put it this way: among the French universities, Bordeaux is the highest ranked in the Shanghai ranking. 17:07:33 (for example a student of 2006-2007 mustn't have a goupe instance of 2008-2009) 17:07:54 also, school in bordeaux sort of presumes advanced french fluency. ;) 17:08:09 yes if, i could help :), what the problem ? 17:08:40 dreadyman: I think you would have to define a presentation type of (say) student-2008-2009. 17:08:54 Fade: this is changing. We are creating an English-only masters program. 17:09:00 wow 17:09:38 I lived in Paris for three years, and while I had access to sorbonne, my french never got good enough to take advantage. :( 17:09:49 Fade: hey, what do you expect when they put foreighners in charge? 17:09:49 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:10:21 although I did foment lisp on the left bank. ;) 17:10:37 gah, I can't do without my flyspell. 17:10:44 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:10:57 hello Fare 17:11:00 most of the informatics students I met only wanted to hear about ruby/rails. 17:11:03 it was weird. 17:11:30 Fade: I think that situation would be very different in Bordeaux, right dreadyman? 17:11:31 beach: would it be possible to come bordeaux for cs after architecture undergraduate, i'm learning common lisp for using it in generative & evolutionist architecture research, so it would be great to master in a faculty which has lisp lovers :) 17:11:53 dreadyman: Why do you always ask me questions when my dinner is about to burn? 17:11:58 Fade: I guess it might be from being force-fed java and possibly php 17:11:58 hello beach! 17:12:53 beach: i don't want to make te view of the completion more compact, but want to remove some entries 17:12:53 lol 17:12:53 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:12:53 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Client Quit] 17:13:07 hi Fare 17:13:21 dreadyman: presentation types can take "parameters" (is that the right terminology) that will allow to to restrict the domain). 17:13:52 beach: do you know it exist some cooking machine to branch on the usb port ( it allow you to see you dinner when you're on irc ;) ) 17:14:17 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.194.81] has quit [] 17:14:17 now that sounds like French technology. 17:14:47 beach: humm, i'm going to study it so... 17:14:47 stassats: If you have some time, I'd really like typspec arglist display for TYPEP, and CHECK-TYPE. Patches for that would prompt me to also apply the others of yours. :) 17:14:47 hrr4 [n=hrr4@p5081B80C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:15:00 Fade: The thing I like about French "informatics" students is that they are not as market-oriented as American (or NZ) students are, so we don't feel obliged to teach Ruby on Rails. 17:15:07 fe[nl]ix, it is good style to use :from-end t when you (reduce #'append ...). 17:15:10 stassats: But the code in question is mostly aweful and actually needs a rewrite 17:15:15 tcr: i was just thinking about it at the moment, maybe... 17:15:19 dreadyman: Check out examples in the McCLIM hiararchy. 17:15:24 beach: hmm, maybe you're not really interested in that kind of transdisciplinary :D i can understand that since it may not be much suitable for academy 17:15:28 yeah, that's what i was thinking 17:15:30 beach: that's probably why they wanted to hear about it from me when they found out I was a hacker. 17:15:34 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@nmd.sbx14502.ashbuva.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:58 Fare: are you referring to some piece of code written by me ? 17:16:03 ah ok, i will do so, do you know the name of this example? 17:16:05 enter much consternation when I said I was only interested in Lisp these days. 17:16:42 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:16:43 dreadyman: grep define-presentation-type *.lisp in the McCLIM hierarchy. 17:16:55 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a63f61@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d8b5c3a0c1468a9c] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 17:16:55 fe[nl]ix, at least in an old checkout of iolib-posix there's that 17:17:44 beach: ok thanks :) 17:17:54 dreadyman: don't forget to help attract these people to Bx 17:18:27 -!- kruth [n=chatzill@70.85.16.216] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.9/2009040821]"] 17:18:27 dreadyman: You owe me one! 17:18:38 yes i want but who ? what is the problem ? :) 17:18:40 dreadyman: They want to know all kinds of things like tuition fees, quality of the wine etc. 17:18:49 lol 17:18:53 dreadyman: You need to listen to the conversation! 17:18:58 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [] 17:19:15 ok i stay in there :) 17:19:16 *Fade* rides his passport to bordeaux 17:19:22 beach: market-oriented? Not so long ago (and probably still), If I proposed RoR people wouldn't consider me weirder unless I asked for Lisp! 17:19:25 droogi`: You can learn lisp anywhere. If there is a good reason to go to Bordeaux, go for that reason. If you go to Bordeaux thinking it will be a Lisp paradise, you'll probably be disappointed. 17:19:47 if somebody wants informations about french wine i can help him (her) 17:19:52 dreadyman: Like TDT was asking about the enrollment fees. I have no idea, since I have never been a student in France. 17:20:23 mxb [n=mxb@bealbywm.plus.com] has joined #lisp 17:20:32 roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:46 tdt: what do you want to know ? :) 17:20:50 droogi`: Yeah, don't expect too much. I hoped that in western university there might be greater chance for *nix workstations, of course failed :P 17:21:04 dreadyman: Well, you need to do better than that, like telling people the advantages of being a student of Bordeaux, you know, excellent teaching staff, like that :) 17:21:42 I'm starting to think beach gets a recuitment bonus. :) 17:21:42 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:21:43 lol 17:22:07 Fade: not at all, I'll just look good in the eyes of my colleagues. 17:22:11 beach: ok nop ;) 17:22:27 *beach* must really get those baking potatoes out of the oven, or else they will turn into charcoal. 17:22:39 ahhh. noble incentive =) 17:22:49 luis: I know enough to know that I don't have an opinion 17:23:40 I think I agree with gbyers in that non-characters shouldn't be characters but I don't really understand all the issues 17:23:40 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:40 ok, anyone here in edinburgh? 17:24:03 tmh: looking for a lisp paradise seems to end up with disappointment everywhere but having chance to learn from even a few number of experts would be excellent :) anyway, i have to long way before needing the help of experts since iam a newbie, and also there is #lisp :) 17:24:51 well, I thought MIT might be lisp paradise. Then, the academic year that I failed to enter, they switched 6.001 to Python 17:24:55 frito [n=user@host81-146-26-208.btremoteinternet-dsl.bt.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:28 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-173-58-94-2.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:26:16 p_l: :) when was that? 17:26:16 droogi`: this academic year 6.001 switched from scheme to python 17:28:30 [OK got those potatoes out] 17:28:30 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:28:37 droogi`: Read... Code... Rinse... Repeat... There is sufficient Lisp information online, multiple Lisp oriented discussion forums, include #lisp, that you should be fine. There are only a handful of metropolitan areas in the US that have active lisp groups. I've mused about starting one in the college town I live in, but it is only 100k and I'm doubtful I could muster 6 people that have interest in Lisp. 17:28:47 dreadyman: You seem devoted to thes project! 17:28:57 maniacxs [n=me@p5B21A89D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:29:15 beach: i very don't see how to do with a presentation type to change the list of elements of the completion, what i want is when i tip a command, i enter the first parameter, tip enter, and after, for the completion of the second object i want to take care about the first parameter to display a completion list according to the first parameter, do you see want i mean ? 17:29:28 beach: what project ? 17:29:43 mega1: ping 17:29:58 p_l: hmm, it's very interesting, because i think with plt scheme getting better everyday there are more motives to teach lisp to cs students. 17:30:04 i haven't time to follow all, my english is not so good... 17:30:31 beach: sorry, i read something wrong... 17:30:46 beach: forget the two last lines... 17:31:28 p_l: i'm sorry, i mean "more motives to teach scheme" 17:31:46 beach: yes i'm devoted to this project, i love coding an i want a good mark :D 17:31:49 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087ABD3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:08 beach: i think also that the differents project students have to do during their cursus could be more interesting if involved into open source project 17:33:18 dreadyman: This would be easier if at some point (no rush) you would tell me your name! :) 17:33:46 dreadyman: I agree, yes. 17:33:50 for example, here it could have be interesting to have some student working on apex, and other working on another project :) 17:34:11 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:34:14 Just out of interest, for a library developer, where do the cool #lispers now host the git repository and the .tar.gz? Both on common-lisp.net? Does the latter do git now? 17:34:19 dreadyman: This is only the second year we do this. All ideas are welcome. 17:34:20 :D My name is Anthony 17:34:40 dreadyman: I knew that much. It's in your gmail address. 17:35:12 beacah: i don't understand, what do you want to know ? :) 17:35:17 dreadyman: I really don't remember the details of the parameters of a CLIM presentation type. 17:35:24 i live in istanbul, and in bilgi university here, chris stephenson, whom i think is the head of cs department, began teaching scheme since he come. and i heard that he tries to fully integrate the mit system to cs department, i wonder what will he do now, because he was also using mit exams :D 17:35:32 dreadyman: doesn't matter. 17:35:53 Welll the newest CLIM member dances in HTML 17:36:07 you speak in riddles 17:36:10 droogi`: SICP still exists, even if MIT isn't teaching it anymore. 17:36:12 dreadyman: I think it would take me as much time to look in the CLIM documenation for how to use a parameter for a presentation type as it would for you to do so. 17:36:17 and is called Closure 17:36:36 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:36:36 To bad she is so clumsy 17:36:36 hefner: younder always speaks in riddles. 17:36:56 beach i understand, but i don't see the link between a presentation type and the completion 17:37:04 prehaps you have heard of cxml? 17:37:42 for the completion, to display an element, you have to give the method that will be used to display the element (:name-key) 17:37:42 Now Imagine a half web browser in CLIM.. 17:37:42 dreadyman: I don't even remember the details of the completion procedures, even though I wrote quite a few of them. 17:37:42 Fade: yes, and also the video tutorials of sicp seems pretty good sources for every newbie to follow. 17:37:56 that would be Closure 17:37:56 they are indeed. those lectures are excellent. 17:38:28 beach: cause if want i was thinking isn't possible i can do this manually 17:38:28 *stassats* imagines what would be younder not talking nonsense 17:38:48 I'd rather imagine half of younder, suspended from a meat hook 17:39:14 but i wanted to use the accept method cause it is more clean 17:39:34 dreadyman: I don't know whether it is possible. What I am saying is I would rather you do the thinking starting from my hints, than me doing it from my vague memories. Now, if you get really stuck, come back here and ask again, no problem. 17:39:41 Fade: they also seem to be not only for scheme but general sources for learning the basics of thinking lispy :) 17:39:50 -!- vande [n=sdfpme@116.4.100.145] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:40:07 dreadyman: I started working at 2 am this morning, and I am running out of energy. 17:40:47 -!- frito [n=user@host81-146-26-208.btremoteinternet-dsl.bt.net] has left #lisp 17:40:53 A browser withous CSS formatting or Forms 17:40:54 dreadyman: hey, ask hefner for instance, he probably just woke up! 17:41:03 beach: i understand :) and i know that 17:41:12 THAT Cloosure ;) 17:41:29 ok, i'm going to do so 17:42:11 dreadyman: sorry, but I am not up to standards tonight. I am very glad you are so devoted to this project, and I don't want to discourage you. 17:42:22 hefner: do you know if it's possible to pass an object on the accept method parameters ? 17:43:07 beach: no problem, you respond to me when i have a question, this is more than everybody :) 17:43:12 dreadyman: of course he does. He wrote the CLIM listener, which I consider a remarkable piece of software, yet so simple. 17:43:12 dreadyman: I actually worked for Opera if you should want to 'elevate the level' 17:43:32 dreadyman: can we rewind to what you're really trying to do? I only half followed the conversation up to this point, and my page up key is broken. 17:43:59 ok, give me 1 minute :) 17:44:24 I would like nothing better than a Lisp browser, but it must have CSS layout and Forms at the very least. 17:44:55 then shut up and write it 17:44:57 And be free and have required no effort on your part. 17:45:32 -!- danlei [n=user@217.84.242.92] has left #lisp 17:45:40 so, now, when i launch the completion (by right-clic) i get a list of object 17:45:43 I am willing to contribute 17:45:48 what i would like to do 17:45:53 *beach* basically agrees with stassats, but would probably have put it more politely, at least initially. 17:46:16 younder: Closure is free. I strongly encourage you to take it on. 17:46:34 is give a first object to my command (by clicking on it when i see the completion) 17:46:37 danlei [n=user@pD954F25C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:24 and when i display the second list of object, i would like to use the first object to reduce the list of object into the seconf completion 17:47:33 :D do you follow me ? 17:47:48 yeah, I think so 17:47:48 great 17:48:16 so have you got an idea ? 17:48:39 *beach* breathes a sigh of relief. 17:49:18 dreadyman: CLIM doesn't immediately lend itself to that, but I can imagine a couple ways to do it. Give me a little time to see which of them might work. 17:49:43 ok thank :) 17:50:03 white-rabbit-obj [n=cpc5@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:50:33 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 17:50:48 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 17:51:36 dreadyman: you are exceptional among my students in that your written English is *way* better. How come? 17:52:17 beach: you say that i write good in english ? 17:52:19 I see a rough stone, I wan't to cut it into a diamond.. Who can blame me 17:52:55 oh, neat. the listener is printing "WARNING: Unprocessed WM Protocols message: message = :WM_TAKE_FOCUS" into the listener whenever I switch windows. 17:52:55 younder: what have you been smoking tonight? 17:53:16 dreadyman: not right then, but in general, yes, much better than your colleagues. 17:53:20 ..which is my fault. oops. 17:53:42 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:32 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:54:32 beach: i think that it's because i good followed my english courses and i think irc helped too 17:54:57 beach: Malburough light, but more impotantly almost all my code is XHTML against a browser. A suficcintly powerfull Would makemy day 17:55:09 cause i already spend much hours on irc, and wrote some articles on the usability team site 17:55:53 beach: do you teach your corse in english? 17:56:03 s/corse/course 17:56:03 dreadyman: also, your colleagues are *way* to afraid of making mistakes, and I think that itself is the biggest mistake. We must allow ourselves to make mistakes and to be corrected, or else we won't learn. You seem to agree about that. 17:56:07 beach: like there http://live.gnome.org/Nautilus/ProgressWindow 17:56:20 Fade: 'fraid not. 17:56:36 -!- maniacxs [n=me@p5B21A89D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 17:56:36 beach: yes i do 17:56:45 lisp is a pretty english heavy domain, even by compsci standards. 17:57:10 younder: nicotine did that to you? I recommend wine instead. It smells less too. 17:57:19 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:57:19 michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has joined #lisp 17:57:33 beach: Heh, you turned this channel into a classroom? 17:57:52 beach: and the follow of this article is that into nautilus 2.26, the progress window have been patched by me :) i'm proud, this is my first patch 17:58:02 dkcl: it's my job (until someone tells me I am off-topic)! 17:58:03 dkcl: sometimes sitting on IRC is better than listening to lecture you are in :D 17:58:30 maniacxs [n=me@p5B21A89D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:58:30 p_l: Heh, that's true. 17:58:30 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 17:59:11 dreadyman: That's the attitude! 17:59:55 beach: now i'm on another project, but i will continue it after exams... 17:59:55 dkcl: you know it's bad lecture when you learn more in completely off-topic channel about your degree than in the lecture you are sitting in 18:00:20 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 18:00:26 dreadyman: do you remember my rant about perfection-oriented people vs performance-oriented people. I am convinced Lispers (and especially people on #lisp) are much more likely to be perfection-oriented. 18:00:34 p_l: We can always blame the government. :) Still, teachers should have the _obligation_ to make their subject interesting for students. 18:00:52 p_l: For either good or bad reasons. 18:01:02 beach :) probably, you said that in course ? 18:01:36 dreadyman: Ah, you are not attending my lectures! Good plan, if you can get away with it! 18:02:00 it's easy to be a perfectionists, you got nothing to do 18:02:05 beach or it is something on your personal page ? 18:02:14 dkcl: it's the eternal bane of someone who doesn't need "introductory java" course while being CS undergrad. 18:02:26 dreadyman: both 18:02:31 I think beach has finally lost his mind, and dreadyman is really him from a second client. 18:02:58 p_l: Heh. :P 18:03:01 Is anyone here who does _not_ use jit-lock as the font-lock kind in Emacs? (You can find out via `C-h v font-lock-support-mode') 18:03:15 hefner: i agree with you.... 18:03:15 O:-) 18:03:40 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 18:04:05 *beach* loses confidence in the judgement of #lisp participants and goes off to finish dinner instead. 18:04:11 haha 18:04:39 Or differently put: Does the reader-conditional aware fontifying work only semi-reliable for you, too? 18:04:50 GODDA 18:05:21 GODDAMMIT (I meant): This is dinner time for all right-thinking French people 18:05:56 beach, are you right-thinking? 18:06:12 Fare: yeah, but not French. 18:06:27 In France, left-thinking was the new right-thinking, anyway 18:06:27 There are right-thinking French people? 18:06:46 Fare: good point. 18:07:16 dkcl: You would be surprised. I am very proud of the citizens of the country that welcomed me. 18:07:47 so is dreadyman really real or hallusination? :) 18:08:15 -!- roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 18:08:18 right? left? thinking? 18:08:21 mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-dbecf46108b36ed8] has joined #lisp 18:08:36 droogi`: he is very close to that to me, because I rarely see students that interested. 18:08:50 droogi`: but he/she/it has a gmail acount. 18:09:26 i didn't mean to say hallusination even if he is one, i respect every single character of a person regardless of their nicknames 18:09:47 every real person has a gmail account 18:10:01 -!- HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:10:22 dkcl: I am not a citizen, but I vote in the municipal elections, and I can assure you that I have tears in my eyes whenever I vote. 18:10:37 beach: hmm, gmail account seems to be an acceptable identity to me, too. 18:10:41 beach: Heh, where did you live before you moved to France? 18:11:23 dkcl: right before? Baltimore US. Before that: Sweden for 28 years. 18:11:24 does anyone LIVE if he's not in France? Survive, maybe. 18:11:26 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.136.41] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:11:32 beach: Ah, wow. 18:11:46 Fare: ahahaha that was good :D 18:11:54 Fare: Very good point. Most people don't know that though! 18:12:01 zombies! 18:12:07 indeed! 18:12:13 and they don't know it. 18:12:13 Maybe I should move to France. I'm tired of Spain anyway! 18:12:41 dkcl: Come on over! 18:13:27 dkcl: Contrary to its reputation, Bordeaux is very cosmopolitan, and very welcoming to foreighners. 18:14:12 I must be mistaken. I thought most French people hated foreigners. 18:14:13 dkcl: don't leave Spain! France is like North Pole! It's freezing. I've been more ill in one year in France than in ten years in Spain. 18:14:36 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:14:36 Bordeaux sounds good, though. They have good wine, so I heard! 18:14:36 -!- smolyn [n=smolyn@76.77.66.100] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:14:42 smolyn [n=smolyn@76.77.66.100] has joined #lisp 18:14:43 i tried to move FRANCE twenty-four times and i was caught up on borders everytime. i think i will try to pass the border with a glass of wine in my hand, i might look more French this way. 18:14:44 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #lisp 18:15:07 pjb: Being originally Danish, and having lived in England and Ireland, I don't think I'll really notice. 18:15:15 s/ll/d 18:15:24 Heh, originady. 18:15:35 dkcl: yes, and very nice people (most of whom are not native to Bordeaux). Pjb is biased because he lived in some remote, cold, northern, etc part of France! :) 18:16:01 droogi`: Might try looking into the *legal* ways for immigrating. 18:16:31 dkcl: I spent one day a week during my childhood in Dragør. 18:16:37 -!- demmeln [n=demmeln@atradig121.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:16:37 (shopping) 18:16:37 does French have remote, cold, northern parts of France? i thought it is all south :) 18:16:47 We have St Pierre et Miquelon! 18:17:04 droogi`: The French thinks so. This is silly to a Scandinavian of course. 18:17:12 antgreen1 [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:17:16 we also have a remote, cold, southern part of France way in Antarctica 18:17:16 I also lived several years in Bordeaux. 18:17:20 Fare: point. 18:18:05 pjb: OK, so now you have to tell everyone that Bordeaux is nice and everyone should come her. I mean, what have you got to lose? 18:18:36 CLIM should have a keyword to define-command to let you supply your own parser for the command arguments. 18:18:36 Bordeaux is nicer than Paris, but Spain is nicer than France. 18:19:00 Spain has better taxes too -- but France has better food. 18:19:04 pjb: Bah, you seemed very pleased to be in Bordeaux during ELS. Do you disagree? 18:19:22 No, it was great! :-) 18:19:26 could you smug europeans please stop with the teasing? :) 18:19:34 if you're going to be a univ teacher, France is nice :) 18:19:45 cmm: what is your problem? Just come here! :) 18:20:17 beach: can't right now, that's the problem :) 18:20:21 cmm: Just come here to the land of the free, Europe :P 18:20:27 dreadyman: why are you not helping me out here? 18:20:32 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:20:41 cmm: what is stopping you? 18:20:46 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 18:20:57 land of the free healthcare, the most expensive in the world (to taxpayers) 18:21:25 beach: next hlf-year's vacation time is tied up elsewhere, basically :( 18:21:26 dreadyman: what presentation type are you using for your second command argument? a member type, or something else? (and if something else, how are you doing completion? from within your own accept method?) 18:21:37 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.136.41] has joined #lisp 18:21:41 Fare: yeah, but great when I walk out of the pharmacy with a plastic bag full of drugs and it costs me 0.5 EUR. 18:22:04 beach: it costs you 0.5 eur + 40% of your income. 18:22:51 cmm: so I'll see you in (say) January? 18:22:51 Fare: when did that logic stop public servants from enjoying themselves? :) 18:22:51 pjb: not really no. I already don't pay enough taxes. 18:23:04 beach: could be! 18:23:04 *p_l* is actually collecting overpaid taxes this year... if he isn't late with tax forms 18:23:06 Watch better you salary sheet. Net/Brut. 18:23:25 heh in the U.S. taxes are a good 25-30% of one's income which is a lot as well. 18:23:26 pjb: I do watch that very closely. 18:24:07 TDT: yeah, but we really get something for our money, like glorious wars to watch on the television 18:24:07 pjb: 40% isn't that much. 18:24:07 TDT: it taxachusetts, it's more like 35%-40% 18:24:07 TDT: try asking the percentage in Sweden or Israel, just to feel better 18:24:07 *beach* agrees with Fare 18:25:12 er, with pkhuong 18:25:12 *Fare* disagrees with himself 18:25:12 *p_l* paid something around ~20% by forfeiting certain taxes 18:25:12 and by forfeiting pension 18:25:15 I still get health benefits ^_^ 18:25:17 also, there are obvious taxes (income, VAT), and then there are hidden ones. the latter can be nontrivial to account for 18:25:47 hefner: yeah, I gotta agree there, I'm not sure what'd I'd do if we weren't in constant wars..I mean, isn't it awesome :) 18:25:51 Anyway, I don't think dreadyman knows the advantages to being in France, let alone Bordeaux, so he has to explain that to others, so that you will come here to study Lisp (see, it's on-topic). 18:26:12 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:26:13 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 18:26:14 Fare: Hmm, didn't know it was that bad here. I know it's a bit higher, but one thing i will say is that Iowa has some pretty low overall taxes I think. 18:26:32 beach: you must be really hungry for those potatoes at this point 18:27:13 and eating in front of the computer is un-French :) 18:27:27 edible computers! Here's the new French concept... 18:27:48 cmm: Don't worry, I have been consuming those while attending #lisp, together with "paupiette de vaux", which WordReference.com translates as "stuffed escalope of veal". 18:28:21 cmm: I am not French, and my wife is away in Austin, so yes, I eat in front of the computer :( 18:28:35 *veaux 18:28:44 dammit! 18:31:33 heh 18:31:33 Anglophones have been misspelling and mis-gendering French for centuries. It's become a natural right. 18:31:33 *cmm* goes to inspect the contents of his fridge 18:31:33 jcowan: What do you mean. In the south-west, we love anglophones. 18:31:33 Rigdern [n=Rigdern@meowth-42.dynamic.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 18:31:33 hefner: for the sencd argument i use a presentation type define by a class 18:31:47 hefner: i don't know what is a member type, let me give you some other details: 18:32:37 i have a buffer object containing somes lists of object, and i uses these lists to enable completion 18:32:58 beach: consider Thomas Malory's 15th-century masterpiece _Le Morte Darthur_ (sic) 18:33:28 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:33:35 When you've been committing that kind of thing for half a thousand years, you acquire a prescriptive right to say "la systeme internationale" when talking about the metric system. 18:33:56 -!- deliana [n=deliana@ABordeaux-158-1-117-18.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:34:02 After all, there's a final -e on systeme, no? 18:34:14 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:20 Only if you put the grave accent: système. 18:34:44 Accents, bah. 18:34:56 quite 18:35:04 And it's le système international. 18:35:12 hefner: perhaps a paste of my code could help you ? 18:35:21 dreadyman: sure, can't hurt 18:35:40 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:54 have you got the link for the paste on this channel ? 18:36:01 Back in the 1920s, when the _thé dansant_ became popular in the U.S., it was frequently spelled "the dansant", "the-dansant", "the-dansante", or simply "dansant". 18:36:06 minion: lisppaste? 18:36:08 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 18:36:43 I gotta say McClim is pretty cool 18:36:43 hi, I am playing around a bit with lisp and tried to install trivial-gay-streams with asdf-install but I do not have any possibility to select skip-gpg-check like it was described in comp.lang.misc. Is it possible this does not work with AllegroCL Express? 18:36:54 It's a bit hard to get used to, and a bit of a mystery so far on using it, but it's pretty quick. 18:37:03 s/gay/grey 18:37:06 -!- ajcc [n=adrian@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:37:15 TDT: that's refreshing to hear. I'm so sick of hearing new people complain about it that I preemptively steer them away to avoid it. 18:38:25 hefner: If it wasn't for their documentation I likely would have been a bit upset about it - but their documentation is pretty solid so far, and their tutorial is pretty good (although could use a bit more explaining how things are working, but it's good enough for sure). 18:39:36 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:39:51 TDT: I am glad you like McCLIM. 18:41:23 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.104.92] has joined #lisp 18:42:45 jao [n=jao@91.Red-81-32-183.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:22 TDT: I agree with hefner that it is refreshing to hear. Most people (who usually don't bother to even look in the Doc subdirectory) complain about the lack of documentation. But I agree with you, CLIM and even McCLIM are fairly well documented at this point. 18:43:54 -!- legumbre` is now known as legumbre 18:44:58 ejs [n=eugen@192-67-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:32 dreadyman pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79353 18:45:32 TDT: I must (of course) also agree that McCLIM is "pretty cool". I use it pretty much every time I write Lisp code, and I must say it saves me a lot of time and effort every time. 18:46:06 beach: Yeah, I'm *just* starting to get into the whole gui programming aspect of stuff, just as a side from PCL (just got past loops), and it's interesting how much can be done so quickly. 18:46:15 what does mcclim do ? 18:46:31 Pesonally, I would like to thank Edmund Weitz for Huchentoot (though I don't share his enthusiasm for Zappa) 18:46:34 develop gui apps, like X-window type stuff. 18:46:42 minion: tell sepult about McCLIM! 18:46:43 sepult: look at McCLIM: McCLIM is Mike McDonald's Free and portable implementation of CLIM, the Common Lisp ueber-Graphics Toolkit and a Common Lisp Library. http://www.cliki.net/McCLIM 18:46:55 manic12_ [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has joined #lisp 18:47:01 younder: that's unfortunate, because only Zappa fans are allowed to use it. 18:47:05 TDT: and what is clx then ? 18:47:10 oh 18:47:14 noooose 18:47:31 TDT: have the browser become the app, through Closure :) 18:47:31 -!- manic12_ [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:47:31 younder: You are getting it all wrong. Zappa is going to be considered one the greatest composers of the 20th century. 18:47:48 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:51 another but a better library to the X system ? mcclim ? 18:47:59 hmmm... how hard is it to write a new CLIM backend? 18:48:17 sepult: There are different widget sets that exist, some of the raw stuff with X, gtk, kde, and other stuff (e.g. tk), different libraries handle it differently. 18:48:22 minion: please tell sepult about CLX! 18:48:22 sepult: have a look at CLX: CLX is to Common Lisp as Xlib is to C - it provides low-level X calls on top of which a Graphics Toolkit can be based. http://www.cliki.net/CLX 18:48:30 Closure is a McClim application.. 18:48:43 Zappa is definitely the champion child-namer of the 20th century 18:48:45 p_l: it's a pain in the rump 18:48:55 "They had four children: Moon Unit, Dweezil, Ahmet Emuukha Rodan and Diva Thin Muffin Pigeen." --WP 18:48:59 p_l: probably as hard as you choose to make it, although there's a lower bound on the amount of work determined by making all the graphics functions draw just so 18:49:06 Is Closure just and McClim application or is it a CLIM application? 18:49:10 younder: I don't know much about Closure, but will have to take a look at it just because now I'm curious. 18:49:11 s/and/an/ 18:49:17 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:49:24 Well, I was planning to use an existing GUI system for drawing :D 18:49:25 p_l: manic12 chooses to make it particularly difficult 18:49:48 tmh: There are probably some McCLIM extensions in there. 18:49:48 maniacxs_ [n=me@p5B218F19.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:49:48 *manic12* makes everything difficult 18:49:52 TDT: It needs work, but it's the right idea 18:50:46 *jcowan* 's heretical theory of the month: "Weasels Ripped My Flesh" was a misunderstanding by the publishers of Zappa's original title, which was "Dweezil Ripped My Flesh". 18:50:46 tmh: It is hypothetical anyway, because nobody would want to run Closure on commercial CLIM implementations. 18:51:07 I will have to consult with my old mentor on how to get CSS2 right.. 18:51:17 beach: I don't follow McCLIM, is the intention for it to be a CLIM implementation, a CLIM+STUFF implementation or a KINDA-CLIM+STUFF implementation? 18:51:28 mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:51:30 dreadyman: in the past half-hour, I've learned two and a half things relevant to your task. First, beach was right to suggest a parameter to your presentation type. Second, and these is the interesting bit, the specification of argument types is evaluated at runtime, and the value of previous arguments are visible at that time, making this trivial. 18:53:11 hefner pasted "Limiting completions based on previous argument example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79356 18:53:19 tmh: Probably your third option. We are trying to make it compatible with commercial CLIM, but when that is not convenient (or even impossible) we don't force it. But we also want it to be an extension of CLIM, so you will find lots of goodies like the listener, Clouseau, ESA, etc. 18:54:15 beach: Ok, thanks. 18:54:15 The norwegian who invented CSS in the first pplace the member of the WWW consortium nad my tecnical directorwhen I worked for Opera 18:55:06 -!- ia_ [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:55:16 tmh: Basically, I agree with Athas, that McCLIM should be a system for all kinds of conventient GUI library-thingies for Common Lisp. 18:55:21 hefner: this paste is for me isn't it ? 18:55:45 dreadyman: you bet! 18:55:45 why do they not put some sample clim screenshots of available clim graphicals !? 18:56:02 hefner annotated #79356 "without debugging cruft" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79356#1 18:56:54 sepult: Did you check the McCLIM web site at common-lisp.net? 18:56:54 http://mcclim.cliki.net/Screenshot 18:56:54 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 18:56:54 McClim is crude compared to CAPI, but it is better than nothing 18:56:54 dreadyman: yes 18:56:54 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 18:56:54 younder: quit complaining and contribute instead! 18:57:19 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-16.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:57:30 ok so here the completion for the second argument depend of the first argument passed, isn't it ? 18:57:46 hefner: Thanks! I'm really not up to this tonight! 18:58:09 beach: since Closure is written in McClim, that migt come true sooner than you think.. 18:58:22 younder: I can't wait! 18:58:38 younder: you're going to work on Closure? 18:58:38 I bet... 18:58:45 heay Athas! Nice to see you! 18:58:50 *younder* tries to whipe off the sarcasm 18:58:52 dreadyman: right. you can see that the second argument uses the value of the previous multiple-of argument to build the type of the next arg, e.g. (small-multiple 11) 18:58:55 (sorry for my ask of confirmation but a misunderstood can happen very fast... and i don't want to waste your time ) 18:59:38 O Fortuna starts playing whenever I open up a Closure source file. 18:59:38 beach: hello! 18:59:38 hefner: ok thanks a lot, i will study it tonight 18:59:38 and i hope i will find a solution to my problem 18:59:38 Athas: will I have the pleasure of seeing you in Milan? 19:00:52 beach: sadly not, I am very busy with my bachelor's project. 19:00:52 Aww! 19:00:52 And I spend all my money on electronic knickknacks. 19:00:52 That's a bad habit. 19:01:04 Does anyone know of a lisp file with lots of reader conditionals in it? 19:01:08 Well, it's so I can write code for them. 19:01:20 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:01:24 guille_ [n=guille_@106.Red-83-39-171.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:38 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:01:39 Athas: I see, yes. What are you planning for your Masters? 19:01:46 Athas: Well someone has to get CSS2 right.. and the Forms inteface too 19:01:46 My groups project involves writing a programming language for controlling embedded devices, and it feels a bit shallow to limit I/O to diodes and potentiometers. 19:01:57 No idea, too many years to go. 19:02:23 Athas: Apply to Bordeaux? 19:03:06 That is probably unlikely. 19:03:14 Athas: there is nothing wrong with the food, nor the wine. 19:03:53 But if the beer is foul.. 19:03:58 Indeed not! But I really love the study environment at DIKU. 19:04:12 why do the cl-wav-synth animated gifs don't display the right way in my browser 19:04:29 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:42 dreadyman: OK, so you need to convince Athas that the study environment is good in Bordeaux as well! 19:04:50 sepult: it is broken, perhaps? 19:04:55 get Xah's Skippy library 19:05:04 Xah's? 19:05:10 -!- maniacxs [n=me@p5B21A89D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:05:19 Old grudge 19:05:54 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:05:54 Xah has been watching too much LOTR and has taken "the UNIX haters' handbook" too seriously. 19:06:04 hefner: seems so 19:06:32 I suppose someone should fire up cl-wav-synth and make sure it works on current mcclim. 19:06:42 *dkcl* misses Erik Naggum. 19:06:51 Auto-complete should have been Xach's Skippy Library. 19:07:18 hefner: it displays, and i can even catch the animation behaviour, but it accelerates first then slows down, and the frames get overloaded or blended so i see say 2 or 3 mouse icons 19:07:21 younder: Xah or Xach? You confused me. :( 19:07:28 well, Xach wrote Skippy 19:07:55 http://www.xach.com/lisp/skippy/ 19:09:19 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.250.121] has quit [] 19:09:53 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:12:23 Not so sorry for the confusion (the grudge thing) 19:13:16 Hmm. 19:14:05 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-231-13.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 19:14:38 I don't think I can run McCLIM. I haven't updated anything in ages. 19:14:42 The bitrot must be great. 19:14:46 found this site - Ninety-Nine Lisp problems - I think it is pretty great as a primer 19:14:55 Athas: bitrot implies things have been changing 19:15:05 Well, SBCL has! 19:15:26 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:15:36 thankfully, the SBCL team has abandoned their old hobby of breaking mcclim every other month 19:15:53 Athas: things work pretty well on recent versions of SBCL and McCLIM. 19:15:57 (or exposing mcclim as broken, depending on your point of view) 19:16:14 I have the newest CVS version of SBCL and SLIME and it runs McCLIM! 19:16:23 lol 19:16:42 Who would have thought.. 19:17:49 the jury is out since 1994, apparently 19:17:58 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 19:18:19 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@nmd.sbx14502.ashbuva.wayport.net] has quit [] 19:18:26 -!- jao [n=jao@91.Red-81-32-183.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:18:44 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 19:19:56 SandGorgon: Fun link, thanks. 19:22:59 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 19:22:59 19:22:59 -!- names: ccl-logbot Adamant ehu` durka42 bombshelter13_ Phoodus guille_ Nshag ia mejja maniacxs_ manic12 ejs Jacob_H JuanDaugherty davazp wlr Rigdern SandGorgon ASau antgreen1 jcowan smolyn mrsolo__ Davidbrcz michaelw bdowning dkcl athos white-rabbit-obj danlei dstatyvka The-Kenny mxb hrr4 puchacz dreadyman fe[nl]ix dto amnesiac BrianRice tltstc existentialmonk blitz_ ChopperDave _dima Featureanini ineiros jfrancis LiamH nvoorhies HG` jeremiah milanj 19:22:59 -!- names: Quadrescence Yuuhi sepult legumbre droogi` wchogg tritchey Liempt tttsssttt prip Athas c|mell hugod Spyderco willb TheLoop postamar cods topo dlowe stassats Jasko sellout xinming_ AntiSpamMeta kpreid joast tombom dostoyevsky dmiles_afk mikezor mtd cavelife^ rlpowell jlf phadthai plutonas luis dfox ilitirit l_a_m deech billstclair vy aunwork leo2007 dcrawford tmh TDT Fufie bohanlon yango s0ber z0d poet sphex_ GrayMagiker kami- sykopomp tcr 19:22:59 -!- names: daniel beach ianmcorvidae|alt holycow Odin- cracki madnificent Hun benny fiveop frank_s_ addled dys abeaumont m4thias`` elias` mega1 younder Adrinael TimDalySr dysinger_ xan eno boyscared gemelen Taggnostr cipher mrsolo_ jmbr akcom rread srcerer kleppari_ X-Scale oudeis specbot minion lisppaste pok Patzy dv_ jrockway foom a-s lnostdal ryepup hyperboreean bobbysmith007 sohail antgreen anekos trebor_dki rstandy Modius mrsolo KingNato tarbo bittin` 19:22:59 -!- names: CrazyEddy mgr mathrick cmm doxtor hefner araujo yahooooo Tordek kreuter ztzg oso`perezoso grkz spacebat metasyntax veljarvis UnwashedMeme sad0ur binarin eirik hypno grc alexbobp DrForr rumbleca Dazhbog qebab stepnem ironChicken pkhuong pjb Soulmann Ginei_Morioka fnordus ``Erik p_l koning_robot scode lichtblau proq matimago PissedNumlock Baughn thijso jsnell vsync felipe rotty cYmen bfein djkthx Zhivago Martinp23 meingbg azuk pragma_ rlonstein 19:22:59 -!- names: Fade Aisling fgtech egn nullman sjbach mornfall nicktastic p8m rodge frontier1 jyujin_ vcgomes drewc froydnj enn robewald_ blast_hardcheese ampleyfly tic_ nasloc__ lemoinem _3b xristos krappie Riastradh johs Guest1661 kuhzoo authentic felixc joga kuwabara spiaggia moesenle djinni` jkantz wgl bascule chii Khisanth Dave2 Bucciarati glogic froog bkudria galdor easch antifuchs Cel myrkraverk clog Wombat1 maxote tcoppi deepfire guenthr peddie herbieB 19:22:59 -!- names: housel ecraven t r0bby rsynnott kooll guaqua albino zbigniew 19:24:19 someone convinced me to use clbuild for my Lisp environment 19:25:00 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:25:44 As I use ubuntu it was a lot of work downloading 6 version control systems, but it worked eventually 19:26:07 yeah, running apt-get is such a chore 19:26:15 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 19:26:40 hefner: No, easier. But not neccesairly up to date 19:27:17 ... 19:27:52 *younder* get's a towel to dry of the dripping sarcasm. 19:28:12 -!- guille_ [n=guille_@106.Red-83-39-171.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:28:15 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:28:31 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:28:34 rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-175-202-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:28:56 -!- TimDalySr [n=daly@dynamic-acs-72-23-19-139.zoominternet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:29:17 TimDalySr [n=daly@dynamic-acs-72-23-19-139.zoominternet.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:58 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:05 hefner: I used that first 19:30:33 -!- GrayMagiker [n=steve@97-123-189-76.albq.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:30:51 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-231-13.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:32:10 As yoy may know apt-get has a commmon-lisp contribution that let's it download most CL packages under Debian and thus Ubuntu 19:32:38 s/packages/systems/ 19:32:39 -!- droogi` [n=user@88.238.203.107] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:32:50 minion: thwap to younder 19:32:50 younder: please look at thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 19:32:56 -!- ejs [n=eugen@192-67-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:33:00 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["Nah, I'm not really into Pokemon"] 19:34:36 Is there some place that lists the SBCL-specific optimize declarations (like insert-array-bounds-checks)? 19:34:41 ejs [n=eugen@192-67-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:19 elurin [n=user@88.254.109.142] has joined #lisp 19:36:20 yes, but even SBCL programmers find it highly confusing 19:36:24 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:52 so don't do that! ;) 19:37:30 s/programmers/developers/ 19:37:45 younder: Don't worry, I'm not really planning to throw it in my code. 19:38:04 It is likely to change 19:38:16 *stassats* notes that it's hard to debug code full of ignore-errors 19:38:37 I still just want to know where I might find it. I want to use it as an example. 19:39:05 sellout: Well, there is the source.. 19:39:08 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:39:18 now i need to find the way to ignore ignore-errors 19:39:24 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:39:34 stassats: replace them with progn 19:39:42 younder: Yes ... thank you ... 19:40:05 Anyone else? 19:40:15 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@216.165.144.151] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:40:17 stassats: Are you programming in an Intercal derived dialect of lisp? 19:40:21 sellout: Yes, there's a file in the source, I'll look for it. 19:40:21 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.136.41] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:40:36 sellout: look for policy.lisp, just a guess, if not grep :) 19:40:43 rme [n=rme@70.104.98.143] has joined #lisp 19:40:55 stassats: but be aware, you cannot change all ignore-errors in slime-parse.el 19:40:59 tmh: no, i'm talking about slime 19:41:13 stassats: some must be there because they're needed for implicit control-flow 19:41:22 tcr: i added check-type and typep, now i'm doing THE 19:41:26 tcr: thanks, got it. 19:41:28 stassats: I was kidding. 19:42:07 which is the lisp package to render awfully looking html sites ? 19:43:05 sellout: Well you were warned ;) 19:43:36 A1ex4Qub1t [n=chenkens@resnet-211716.resnet.bris.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:43:49 -!- ejs [n=eugen@192-67-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:43:51 -!- A1ex4Qub1t [n=chenkens@resnet-211716.resnet.bris.ac.uk] has left #lisp 19:43:56 tcr pasted "for stassats" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79366 19:44:12 younder: warned about what? 19:44:15 stassats: I do pretty much all my elisp debugging with that 19:44:16 Ragnaroek [i=54a63f61@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7cbab938c498a009] has joined #lisp 19:48:14 i end up wrapping code in condition-case and printing the conditions 19:48:14 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:48:36 tcr: yeah, that should be more useful than just printing to *messages* 19:48:55 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:49:12 so use handler-bind 19:50:28 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:51:17 stassats: Also remember that M-* is what M-, is in slime-mode 19:51:27 Took a time to figure that out 19:51:40 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:27 etags should be created first, right? 19:52:41 right 19:52:49 i already enrolled my own M-./M-, on basis of C-h f 19:53:04 You don't need etags with xref 19:53:18 heh ok, I just was about to say to make sure to also run etags on your the emacs lisp/ source directory 19:54:19 -!- PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:54:33 tcr: You want to debug elisp? .. why? 19:54:53 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 19:55:14 In which case you need etags.. ;) 19:55:19 -!- rme [n=rme@70.104.98.143] has left #lisp 19:56:06 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has left #lisp 19:56:40 My point was that with xref Common Lisp code can be followed without a external file. 19:57:07 -. and -, 19:57:09 sepult, i think cl-who and/or html-template would have support for that 19:57:34 is anywhere in clhs discussed legal status of the glossary? are definitions in it comprehensive? 19:57:45 -!- mxb [n=mxb@unaffiliated/mxb] has quit [Success] 19:58:26 mxb [n=mxb@bealbywm.plus.com] has joined #lisp 19:59:04 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:05 sepult: awfully or good, it depends on you.. yes Edi's cl-who will do it. To make it less awfull I suggest you learn CSS. 19:59:23 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250024.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:00:29 -!- dreadyman [n=anthony@191.128.68-86.rev.gaoland.net] has left #lisp 20:00:32 clhs 1.4.3 20:00:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_dc.htm 20:00:50 wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-144-151.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:07 c|mell [n=cmell@x250003.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 20:01:23 stassats: See there. 20:01:57 stassats: yes 20:03:51 mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:39 this is he glossary: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_a.htm 20:05:47 younder: do you have a link to css ? 20:06:37 tcr: well, yes, glossary isn't listed there 20:06:47 younder: ok i found a wiki 20:07:20 sepult: sure it's a www consortion thing at w3c.org: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/ 20:07:40 the issue is with http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_d.htm#declaration_identifier and http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_cca.htm 20:07:45 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 20:09:04 sepult: if you are serious about web design you might want to check out www.sitepoint.com 20:09:05 stassats: glossary: "or a symbol which is the name of a type" 20:09:07 rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151332.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:10:37 stassats: Ah, right, I know what you mean. 20:10:46 stassats: http://common-lisp.net/project/parse-declarations/manual/html_node/Glossary.html#Glossary 20:11:09 stassats: That's a glitch in the glossary entry. 20:11:22 sepult: I recomend "HTML Utopia: designing wihout stylesheets using CSS tables" 20:11:51 s/stylesheets/tables/ 20:12:36 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:45 younder: damn, I was hoping there *was* actually a book on HTML without CSS, using tables. :) 20:13:24 foom: there is, but it goes back to HTML 3.2 20:13:31 i mean a new one 20:13:50 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-195-154.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:58 tcr: is there non-glossary definition of the type specifier? because 3.3.3.1 refers to glossary on that too 20:14:03 the crap people have to go through to create something with CSS that would be simple with the use of a table... 20:14:45 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-195-154.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:14:50 clhs 4.2.3 20:14:50 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/04_bc.htm 20:15:03 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-195-154.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:56 foom: actually there is check out www.sitepoint.com for a new book on web design 20:16:08 ok, the last question was unnecessary, because it gives me nothing new 20:16:40 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 20:16:52 -!- antgreen1 [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 20:16:55 tombom_ [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 20:17:16 stassats: notice that the FUNCTION and VALUES type specifier is not allowed in TYPEP. 20:17:48 -!- sellout [n=greg@63.107.91.105] has quit [] 20:17:58 That's Lisp 2 for you 20:18:34 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:18:54 Sounds like catholisism unity through triinity ;) 20:19:11 I was wondering if anyone else sees this SLIME oddity with SBCL --- I inspect a large class, and the SLIME inspector window shows me a subset of the slots, and displays [--More--] at the bottom, but I can't do anything with that --more--. 20:19:11 younder: Although this is a chat room, this does not mean that you should comment on everything. 20:19:53 rpg: I /think/ that means that there's just nothing more behind it. Anyway you should report it to the mailing list. 20:20:01 lispm [n=joswig@e177146004.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:20:33 rpg: you mean it isn't clickable with the mouse? 20:20:34 tcr: so if there /were/ more slots, I should be able to click on the [--More--] and see them? 20:20:41 stassats: yes, that's right. 20:20:51 -!- antgreen [n=Anthony@99.230.243.104] has left #lisp 20:20:51 my last patch on slime-devel@ addresses that 20:20:54 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:21:08 stassats: Ah! Great. I will pull an update right now! Thanks. 20:21:12 rpg: Depends on what you mean with click, you have to use RET 20:21:14 rpg: it is clicable with keyboard 20:21:23 rpg: it isn't in CVS yet 20:21:34 rpg: I haven't applied the patch. I'll do so tomorrow perhaps. 20:21:39 any reason it shouldn't be activated with mouse or mouse-2? 20:21:46 rpg: Btw. do you still use named-readtables? 20:22:27 tcr: I'm not working on anything with it right now. I have a long-postponed fix to the shop2 planner that would use it (projects.sourceforge.net/shop -- I think). 20:22:56 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:23:04 rpg: Ok, I did work on it again. So you should update whenever you come back working on that. 20:24:02 tcr: but, as i see, is allowed in check-type, right? 20:25:23 well, Notes say: (check-type place typespec) == (assert (typep place 'typespec) (place) 'type-error :datum place :expected-type 'typespec) while notes aren't part of the standard 20:25:27 stassats: Good question. I'd expect that to expand to typep. How does sbcl behave? 20:26:02 I don't think it makes sense for check-type. 20:27:15 -!- white-rabbit-obj [n=cpc5@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:27:50 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 20:31:24 sbcl complains about ((lambda (list) (check-type list (function (t) *)) list) #'list) but silent with (function * *) 20:32:16 Perhaps it's asked too much for this special-casing anyway 20:32:31 i guess (function * *) is going down to function 20:33:04 -!- tombom_ [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 20:33:55 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:35:21 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 20:35:32 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Client Quit] 20:37:32 slhdn [n=selahadd@81.214.170.167] has joined #lisp 20:38:08 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 20:40:03 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Client Quit] 20:40:24 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 20:41:07 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 20:41:07 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:41:45 Whoot, so spent the whole day debugging this fontification problem. Finally committed a fix for it. 20:42:22 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151332.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:43:55 -!- mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:44:28 -!- slhdn [n=selahadd@81.214.170.167] has left #lisp 20:44:31 -!- maniacxs_ [n=me@p5B218F19.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 20:45:00 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.104.92] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:48:10 -!- mxb [n=mxb@unaffiliated/mxb] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:49:59 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:28 i think i'm done with arglists 20:51:32 benreesman [n=ben@asa01-ext.utc.backmo.com] has joined #lisp 20:52:21 well, :element-type's, etc. are left 20:52:34 processing code in emacs isn't much fun 20:53:13 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.distlab.diku.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:56:41 rolly1975 [n=rory@5ac959a9.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 20:58:20 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-239-4.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:00:24 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:02:42 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:03:03 -!- hypno [n=hypno@195.43.248.100] has quit ["leaving"] 21:08:52 atlchma [n=user@bootsy.cc.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 21:09:04 evenin' 21:09:31 hello Krystof! 21:09:33 night 21:09:40 pretty late no? 21:09:48 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-67-67-216-59.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:48 rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151332.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:14:52 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a63f61@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7cbab938c498a009] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:18:38 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 21:19:33 beach: for me? Yeah, and for you too! 21:20:06 I had a 9am deadline dropped on me today at 3pm 21:27:09 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-67-67-216-59.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:27:12 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:27:43 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-253.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 21:30:01 dwave [n=ask@212251243172.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:31:14 stationary and stationery 21:31:20 intriguing 21:38:01 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:39:03 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-199-168.51-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 21:40:05 Xof [n=crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 21:41:14 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 21:46:41 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 21:48:05 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6C74F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 21:51:16 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:52:50 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:53:27 -!- dwave [n=ask@212251243172.customer.cdi.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 21:54:40 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:55:36 HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 21:58:08 -!- rolly1975 [n=rory@5ac959a9.bb.sky.com] has quit ["The computer fell asleep"] 22:00:09 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:02:45 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:54 zbrown [n=rufius@unaffiliated/zbrown] has joined #lisp 22:08:14 dammit... it always seems like a good idea to reinvent that wheel at the time. 22:08:51 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:09:09 Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:10:28 slyrus_: always is, but then you realize later you've got 38 wheels and no axels :( 22:10:39 zbrown: Hey! How's your VM doing? 22:10:52 oudeis [n=oudeis@217.194.205.196] has joined #lisp 22:10:54 dkcl: ummm its robust enough to be dangerous? 22:10:57 :) 22:11:04 zbrown: You said I could take a look at it! :/ 22:11:32 dkcl: things like this work now: (set blah (fun (x) (add x 1))) \n (println (blah 1)) 22:11:47 however it doesn't do any type of recursion yet 22:11:51 thats on my list of things to hack on tomorrow 22:12:07 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:12:09 So you're still actively developing it! Nice! 22:12:10 I'm taking a break from it today, I hit a bit of brain block this morning and decided to work on other things I've been neglecting 22:12:11 *dkcl* likes. 22:12:12 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 22:12:26 As long as it's not Python. 22:12:28 dkcl: it is likely that it will outgrow its current design and I'll have to do some serious reworking 22:13:01 if nothing else, I will present it as an example of how 'not' to do this and then try it in another fashion :) 22:13:18 Cool. 22:13:53 dkcl: I'd kinda like to spend some time looking at SBCL's inner workings (if I can grok them) and maybe a Scheme and see what intelligent things I can learn from that, then take a stab at it again 22:14:17 You're still planning on making it Scheme-like? 22:14:43 dkcl: well the one I have now is definitely scheme-ish, in the future maybe and maybe not, I'm open to suggestions :) 22:15:05 -!- veljarvis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:15:19 dkcl: I've got a couple languages brewing in my head I'd like to experiment with. Currently another in my head which may be absurd but still fun is a smalltalk-like object oriented language that can pass higher-order functions around 22:15:20 I hope you like the SBCL source better than whichever Scheme you happen to take a look at. :) 22:16:37 dkcl: I'm also curious of creating an ML-style type checker for lisp/scheme (probably scheme first as its nature would be easier to work with I think) 22:16:56 As long as it's a type checker and you don't implement static typing. 22:17:02 dkcl: if I can get recursive functions working, I'll let you see ATFL then 22:17:08 Check comp.lang.lisp. They've been ranting on that for a few weeks now. 22:17:14 Ah, great! 22:17:18 understanding sbcl isn't exactly a walk in the park 22:17:24 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:17:27 stassats: I'm aware of that much ;) 22:17:43 this isn't a weekend task, more of a 3 month task for evenings this summer 22:18:11 dkcl: my hope is to have recursive functions working and behaving themselves by the end of the week, at the latest Sunday evening as then I have to study for exams :-| 22:18:22 -!- hugod [n=hugod@69.70.138.86] has quit [] 22:18:38 maybe cmucl docs would be also helpful 22:20:00 I really ought to spend more time with lisp and scheme... I rarely get that luxury though 22:20:07 X-Scale2 [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has joined #lisp 22:20:16 stassats: thanks for the suggestion 22:20:41 -!- X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:21:28 i meant "Design of CMU Common Lisp" 22:21:29 -!- X-Scale2 is now known as X-Scale 22:23:27 -!- Jarv2 is now known as djarvelis 22:24:09 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 22:24:11 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:26:10 stassats: ah, thanks 22:26:51 don't know how much of this is still applicable to sbcl, but anyway 22:27:41 stassats: eh, this is largely for educational purposes, I'm content to browse these kinds of documents just to see what I can do 22:28:06 stassats: I generally use 25 year old (older than me ;) references for designing these toys 22:28:47 understand sbcl and become sbcl hacker! sbcl is a good toy 22:29:11 who here mentioned that they were working on a tokyo cabinet interface for CL? 22:29:26 Fade: p_l 22:29:28 stassats: I think I'll need to become a proficient lisp programmer before we go anywhere near that :) 22:29:32 ah, right. thanks 22:29:42 Fade: any questions? 22:29:44 stassats: I'd consider myself... well a quite awful lisp programmer at best 22:30:05 tokyo cabinet just came up in another conversation, and I had a vague recollection that there might already be prior art. 22:30:10 (related to lisp) 22:30:18 luckily, that can be changed very easily: MORE CODE 22:30:48 stassats: yes indeed, however a large portion of my "more code" time is devoted to whats most useful to me at that time 22:30:50 p_l: what's the status of your work? 22:30:55 Fade: I haven't much time to work on it lately (except copy-pasta for tyrant & dystopia CFFI), but the basic code can be made of use (it lacks lisp-style api) 22:31:08 stassats: though that will change next semester as I'm quitting my current research job in favor of spending time doing my own researching 22:31:26 *nod* 22:31:36 C API is directly available from CL and somehow works, but it needs some love 22:32:53 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:33:17 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:33:43 it can be a start for a Lisp interface, and I was going to look over BDB interface in Elephant to check if there was any prior-art when it comes to CL interface to DBM descendants 22:34:09 *nod* 22:34:21 do you have a project page up? 22:34:42 I'll upload some of my last changes later into git, but be aware that newest version might have some problems (I haven't cleaned and file layout has to be restructured so you don't have to load all three libs at once) 22:34:49 Fade: wait, I'll get the link 22:35:23 ... lol, I've got people watching my repo 22:35:34 http://github.com/unya/cl-tc/tree/master 22:35:44 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:48 have you used tokyo cabinet for anything? 22:38:12 Fade: not yet, I had to suspend my private projects lately 22:38:25 thanks :) 22:38:27 It was my "get hands-on training with CFFI" project 22:38:46 if you were to finish it, i think it'd attract users. 22:38:49 but I'm considering using it for my forever-delayed mplayer manager 22:39:07 ok, pushed last version 22:39:27 WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:43 btw, anyone here had experiences with trains/buses in Scotland? 22:40:58 I know I just asked this the other day, but I can't get ECL to work with slime (Missing CLC). I just got my system back up. 22:41:00 yeah, avoid the restrooms at the stations. ;) 22:41:00 -!- atlchma [n=user@bootsy.cc.gatech.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:41:07 that's a given :P 22:41:41 I'm wondering whether I should go with train (~£37) or bus (~£20) for my trip to edinburgh, tommorrow 22:42:03 go hitchhiking 22:42:05 roark_ [n=roark@admin163-55.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 22:42:33 how far is the trip? 22:42:37 stassats: out of the question, I'm on official bussiness and quite constrained timetable. Otherwise it would alright 22:42:50 phf [n=phf@129-2-134-195.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 22:42:57 i found the trains more reliable than the busses, fwiw. 22:42:58 Fade: Aberdeen (morning) -> Edinburgh -> Aberdeen (evening) 22:43:13 that was some time ago, so ymmv. 22:44:12 Well, I guess I'll get the train... I might get a seat near powersocket 22:47:01 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 22:47:09 i have a macro foo, called in the following manner (foo (... (foo ...))). i want to bind something in the outer call, and then update the outer value in the inner. how can i do that? 22:47:51 kind of like (let ((*level* (1+ *level*))) (... macro expansion that uses *level* ...)) 22:48:38 phf: you have to be clear on when *level* is bound and used? 22:49:37 If you only want run-time, then just: (defmacro foo (&body body) `(let ((*level* (1+ *level*))) ,@body)) 22:49:39 pjb: did you succeed in running emacs on top of the linux kernel? 22:49:48 leo2007: of course. 22:49:56 where is grenoble located ? 22:49:58 leo2007: do you have the url of my mini howto? 22:50:18 sepult: better use google maps. It's in the East of France, near the Alps. 22:50:27 ok 22:50:41 pjb: no 22:50:53 pjb: i would prefer it on macroexpansion, so that i can "compile" relevant parts. but i suspect i'm limited to runtime 22:51:13 leo2007: http://www.informatimago.com/linux/emacs-on-user-mode-linux.html 22:51:16 p-I: Aberdeen it is then 22:51:48 Oild city, brent field 22:51:56 Oil 22:52:29 almost empty now 22:52:31 pjb: it does not look complicated. how do you feel when working on a system like that? 22:52:57 leo2007: basically, it's emacs. If you spend 99.99% of your time in emacs anyways, you won't feel limited at all. 22:53:18 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@93.144.60.126] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:53:22 -!- phf [n=phf@129-2-134-195.wireless.umd.edu] has quit ["Leaving..."] 22:54:36 p_l: got any feedback on cffi? 22:56:06 Does swank have any dependancies? 22:57:55 kidd1 [n=kidd@60.Red-79-150-112.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:21 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:58:27 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:58:38 luis: well, it was my first time trying to use FFI with language whose runtime wasn't written entirely in C... 22:58:51 nyef [n=nyef@24.220.182.229] has joined #lisp 22:58:59 Hello all. 22:59:08 ok, apparently Visa went bonkers just now 23:00:17 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-138-18.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 23:00:25 it didn't accept a Visa Electron as Visa Debit/Electron, but did accept it as Visa Credit 23:01:47 Xof_ [n=crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 23:01:48 nyef: hello 23:02:05 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 23:02:17 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:41 pjb: ;) I spend most of the time with Emacs but it relies on other tools such as latex 23:03:12 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-226-143-253.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:03:25 So, cygwin contrib build fix is in. 23:03:37 leo2007: So, now you will have to write a package manager in emacs lisp to install it ;-) 23:03:41 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:04:09 leo2007: emacs can open tar.gz files, so you've got most of it already done. 23:04:53 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:05:52 ticket bought, I'll use Lisp and Coffee to keep me awake during journey... 23:07:09 -!- rjack 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