00:00:02 -!- armon [n=armon@114.28.192.170] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:00:05 Well, Casting SPELs doesn't use the right terminology. 00:00:11 can I create aliases for all of them? 00:00:17 anyway, why would want to do that? 00:00:31 You could wrap them in macros. 00:00:35 To confuse people who might want to read the code, of course! 00:00:52 why not? 00:00:56 (defmacro whatchamacall (&whole w) `(setf ,@(rest w))) 00:00:57 setenv is a POSIX function, afaik :D 00:01:15 (defmacro whatchamacall (&rest args) `(setf ,@args)) ; rather. 00:01:26 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 00:01:37 because I just made a mistake with second and put something else, and turned out it was part of the syntax 00:01:55 oh well... 00:02:19 and I have to start all over again now 00:02:30 what do you mean? 00:03:05 -!- hrr4 [n=hrr4@p5081A1BD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:03:06 you mean you use a repl, which doesn't have history editing? 00:03:52 I didn't know how to invoke my last block of code in SBCL in order to correct that word. So I shutdown SBCL 00:04:11 Aren't you using emacs? 00:04:29 you choose a very strange solution to that problem 00:04:51 consider using slime 00:05:05 I am on emacs now. What to do next? 00:05:28 M-x shell RET sbcl RET (+ 1 2) RET M-p 00:05:46 oO 00:05:49 damn 00:06:02 where M = Alt 00:06:06 But this is too basic. Better use inferior-lisp: C-u M-x inferior-lisp RET sbcl RET (+ 1 2) RET M-p 00:06:29 minion: slime? 00:06:30 slime: SLIME is the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/slime 00:06:32 And if you want sophisticated tools, use slime instead of inferior-lisp. 00:08:14 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087FBEB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:08:50 got it 00:09:11 was (+ 1 2) an example? because it returned 3 00:09:25 yes 00:09:33 slime is CL? 00:09:39 No. 00:09:40 slime is IDE 00:09:56 what did you mean by inferior? 00:10:06 It's emacs terminology. 00:10:21 inferior = child 00:10:36 oh, my bad I just read that line 00:10:59 Yeah, it's something that doesn't really make sense until you have the background, which dates back to MIT's ITS system at least. 00:11:23 What? You mean children don't learn ITS nowdays? 00:11:42 you mean inferiors? 00:11:49 :-) 00:12:55 ok, I'll go by the voices of experience 00:13:07 verendus [n=brendan@nmd.sbx09475.cedaria.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:20 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-238.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:14 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-224.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 00:15:01 -!- deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 00:16:01 I started using linux in 2003 or 2004 00:16:11 I feel retarded 00:16:41 Don't. There are a lot of people who started using linux in 2008. 00:16:43 i started using linux in 2005, i feel ok 00:16:51 pjb: Well, ITS is kinda hard to install... 00:17:01 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:17:05 especially if you want MACLISP working 00:17:39 what's ITS? 00:17:46 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:54 incompatible timesharing system 00:17:58 Incompatible Timesharing System 00:18:14 what does it do? 00:18:26 an old mainframe os 00:18:27 (as opposed to CTSS, compatible timesharing system) 00:18:39 it's an operating system for DEC PDP-10, last normal physical machine got shut down somewhere in 1990 00:18:40 oh yeah I read about it 00:19:05 is it possible to still one of those native lisp boxens? 00:19:14 I don't know from ebay or somesuch 00:19:43 i heard symbolics is still selling 00:19:47 nixzs: if you look carefully for one, yes. But they won't be cheap, nor easy to get back running unless you find someone experienced 00:20:04 stassats`: I'm not sure if they got hw, they certainly still sell support and license packages.. 00:20:25 crazy, they still around? 00:21:01 let me ask this, those lisp machines had a custom made CPU, what arch was that cpu? 00:21:12 was the cpu designed around the language? 00:21:19 nixzs: it was made specially for those machines 00:21:30 36bit cpu, with tagged memory 00:21:32 by whom 00:21:58 nixzs: by Symbolics, from various parts 00:22:19 36bit??!! 00:22:31 never thought that existed 00:22:34 nixzs: it was quite common 00:22:49 and is the true reason behind "binary" and "text" modes in FTP :) 00:22:55 now it would be 72bit instead of 64bit 00:23:16 nixzs: not necessarily. The reasons for 36-bit cpus were quite different 00:23:17 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["leaving"] 00:23:31 but the cpu what design followed? 00:23:54 basically, you could fit 10-digit precision in 36bit, which was scientific/engineering standard of that time 00:24:23 and later Lisp implementations found it very good to have 36bit registers with 18bit pointers 00:24:48 afaik LispM used 4 bits as tags 00:25:13 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 00:25:39 and tagging and various special-purpose hardware made garbage collection and swapping much more efficient 00:26:13 doesn't fall in any of the MIPS, ARM, POWERPC, x86 etc categories? 00:26:26 will future mainstream chips ever have these features? 00:26:31 nope, it was special-purpose design 00:26:43 mm.. you seem to know a lot, do you own such a machine by any chance? 00:26:47 stassats`: it's not useful for them at the moment, so they won't 00:27:12 i would have thought a sparc would run lisp nicely 00:27:22 nixzs: No, I only ran OpenGenera (a version of Symbolics software for DEC OSF/1 on Alpha) 00:27:22 -!- athos_ [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 00:27:43 *nixzs* has a sparc lying aroud 00:27:44 I also had some experience with emulated PDP-10 (ITS on KS-10 and TOPS-20 on KL-10) 00:27:45 well 3 00:27:58 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-224.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 00:28:06 are there emulators of that machine? 00:28:16 p_l: atm, yes, but sometimes in the future 00:29:10 stassats`: I'm not sure - I expect to see microcoded Lisp running on top of a RISC, but not cpus augmented in that direction 00:29:32 Note that 36-bit machines were only one family of LispMs. There were also the Xerox Interlisp-D machines and the MIT CADR and its derivatives via LMI and TI. 00:29:52 (And there are CADR and TI Microexplorer emulators out there.) 00:29:59 even current x86 isn't really done in silicon with exception of Atom and possibly VIA 00:30:09 p_l: not only lisp, many other dynamic languages could benefit from tagged memory, hw assisted gc, etc. 00:31:06 stassats`: hw assisted GC is completely outside the scope, unless you are building special purpose computers etc. In such case, you can easily get those features :) 00:31:18 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 00:31:26 some people are also using masked bits in pointers for tagging, but that can be dangerous 00:31:50 *nyef* thinks that the Alpha architecture has some interesting possibilities for PALcode-assisted GC. 00:32:19 nyef: well, that's what PALcode is for ;( 00:32:21 *;-) 00:32:56 are there any efforts to bring a similor cpu back to life? 00:33:00 some SPARCs had vector cpus as memory controllers... 00:33:33 open source is making a graphics card from scratch 00:34:01 nixzs: LispMachine style? None that I know. There's a lot of RISC projects (inluding complete ones like OpenSPARC and starting-phase ones like the guys reviving Alpha) 00:34:20 ISTR H4ns wanting to do an ASIC LispM based on either the CADR or Explorer CPUs, now that they've been emulated sufficiently to determine their semantics. 00:34:21 This may seem like a basic question, was going through the loop chapter of the book - anyone build their own "compiler" of sorts through CL? Oddly enough I never had a class on building a compiler when an undergrad, and wouldn't mind trying it sometime. 00:34:27 lisp run well on modern cpus, so there is not much interest 00:34:50 I heard that IA-64 memory model might be nicely exploited for things like closures etc. 00:34:52 TDT: A simple compiler is easy, really. An optimizing one is harder. 00:35:05 minion: LiSP? 00:35:05 LiSP: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 00:35:44 there's some compiler stuff in PAIP as well 00:35:46 nyef: *nod* yeah, I'm thinking just trying something easy and then see abou toptimizing it later..I relaly think it'd help teach me a whole lot TBH 00:35:51 hrr4 [n=hrr4@p50818FC6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 00:36:09 and in sicp 00:36:41 Tried that link, doesn't work, tried taking out the www-, still ddn't work. 00:36:47 lol 'The requested URL /~queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html was not found on this server.' 00:36:51 And if you're targetting Lisp with your compiler, it's almost trivial, as you "just" need to do source-to-source transformation. 00:36:52 nixzs: If someone convinced symbolics to give access to its software, I guess more people would be willing to rebuild their LispM 00:37:25 Why not start from the latest CADR sources available and modernize that? 00:37:44 nyef: yeah, I want to really just make it a good mental exercise is pretty much what I'm aiming at, so whatever is needed to make that happen 00:37:55 nyef: Well, I had OpenGenera running, so that's where I'm coming from :D 00:38:03 p_l: Fair enough. 00:38:14 nyef: And more people seem to have had contact with Genera than other lisp machines 00:38:23 One of these days I should try that amd64 opengenera. 00:38:59 nyef: when you get around to massaging the code properly, it runs quite nicely 00:39:05 TimDalySr [n=user@dynamic-acs-72-23-19-139.zoominternet.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:13 as long as you don't forget few important things 00:39:14 lisp in small pieces seems like a good start though, thanks for the information on that - will google to see if I can find a working mirror to the book. 00:39:53 well that didn't take long 00:39:58 the correct link: http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html 00:40:34 Heh. I actually brought LiSP with me for some reason. 00:40:46 I don't even know why anymore. 00:41:02 minion: LiSP? 00:41:02 LiSP: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 00:41:12 fixed 00:41:26 ok, I saved this conversation for referencing. Too many jargon an acronyms I am not familiar with. 00:42:23 can anyone point me at a common lisp code walker? I'd like to extract a list of all of the function calls from the sources 00:42:27 TDT: and amazon is the working mirror 00:42:43 minion: cl-walker? 00:42:43 cl-walker: cl-walker (home page) is a library that implements an sexp => CLOS AST tree transformation (and vice versa). http://www.cliki.net/cl-walker 00:42:52 thanks 00:43:04 stassats`: yeah, thought that this book was like PCL where the text was available online. 00:43:05 stassats`: or your local university's library 00:43:28 lisp is small pieces is an awesome example of literate lisp 00:43:40 or... another place ;) 00:43:47 all lisp programs should be written that way (he said, with a religious gleam in his eye) 00:43:49 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:44:42 TDT: sicp is available online 00:46:27 stassats`: *nod* yeah, my library has this book as well, well..used to, person didn' return it. I'll have to request they get another copy :) 00:47:04 TDT: just buy it. its worth it. 00:47:35 are there any other literate lispers here? 00:47:58 i need to read that one too, don't know why i haven't yet 00:48:21 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-26-144-229.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:48:24 what is the url? 00:48:33 rolly1975: getting it into library allows more people to use it... :) 00:48:53 I just installed slime, it doesn't have any binary 00:49:05 it will compile itself 00:49:07 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:07 true. always good to have your own permanent copy of the classics tho :-) 00:49:21 rolly1975: as p_l says, plus I'd like to look at it first and then determine. TBH I have *way* too many books lately, and this one would go behind scheme and object oriented programming in CL as well..haha 00:49:54 rolly1975: although, if it's really good after I get it at the library then I tend to buy it then...I'm a sucker for books unfortunately :-/ 00:50:21 TDT: same here. I also have Norvigs AI / Lisp book as well, which I dont know if I'll ever get round to! 00:50:59 is slime used inside emacs? 00:51:03 by any chance 00:51:54 it's written in emacs lisp 00:52:00 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:53:00 I see, it requires a few configuration steps 00:53:00 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.151.192] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:53:12 rolly1975: lol I'm glad I'm not the only one then who seems to eye more books than gets around to reading. Lately I've been trying to just focus more on the books I have, finish those up, then go on. 00:53:29 here I officially end my editor fanboyism 00:54:02 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:54:16 I don't read books, I just do 00:55:07 nixzs: put unpack it, then add the following to your .emacs: (add-to-list 'load-path "/path/to/slime/") (require 'slime) (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf)). then restart emacs, type M-- M-x slime RET , and you're in a repl. 00:55:45 i tend to read books in parallel, and sometimes i forget what i am reading at the moment 00:56:07 nixzs: youre missing out 00:57:42 HG` [n=wells@91.111.13.16] has joined #lisp 00:58:00 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:14 danlei: thanks :) 00:58:53 nixzs: you're welcome 00:59:12 *nixzs* goes back to Casting SPELs tuto 01:00:21 Does SBCL have threads on OS X/PPC? 01:01:09 *nixzs* wants sbcl on PS3 CELL 01:01:56 gigamonkey: i don't think so 01:02:06 nixzs: What, it's just another 970MP-lookalike 01:02:35 now, SPUs are fun, but you won't squeeze SBCL into 256kb of their memory :) 01:03:01 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.217.125] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:04:16 how about an embedded lisp compiler? 01:04:27 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 01:04:29 *stassats`* imagines sbcl having little tentacles reaching cell spus 01:05:58 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:55 oudeis [n=oudeis@92.61.224.16] has joined #lisp 01:07:10 -!- HG` [n=wells@91.111.13.16] has quit [Client Quit] 01:07:50 nixzs: actually, it's C-u M-x slime ... but you get the idea 01:09:00 k 01:09:25 M-- ... if you have set up slime-lisp-implementations 01:11:01 danlei: this is a virgin emacs+slime install so whatever works for it is fine. The reason I am installing is precisely because general consensus in the channel 01:11:56 then go with C-u M-x slime , least configuration 01:12:17 got it 01:13:54 -!- rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:16:35 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.151.192] has joined #lisp 01:16:49 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-204.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:18:56 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@92.61.224.16] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:19:33 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 01:21:06 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:21:13 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-239-4.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:26 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-238.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:38:29 -!- verendus [n=brendan@nmd.sbx09475.cedaria.wayport.net] has quit ["leaving"] 01:47:41 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B168793.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:48:59 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-73-127.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:53:08 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 02:04:22 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-29-178.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:05:21 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2C4E6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 02:05:46 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@68.100.82.124] has quit [] 02:06:09 pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 02:10:20 legumbre` [n=user@r190-135-31-86.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 02:11:29 danlei [n=user@pD9E2CCA7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:17 i'm curious what the general feeling in the lisp community is about clojure. any thoughts? 02:12:51 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:59 <_3b> 'there is no lisp community' is the general feeling :p 02:13:06 chessguy: I'm immune to your trolling! 02:13:14 trolling? 02:13:16 oh, darn. I was going to answer him, too. 02:13:19 am i off topic? 02:13:49 <_3b> this channel likes CL, #scheme likes scheme, #clojure likes clojure 02:13:51 chessguy: no, but clojure is a common trolling tactic on c.l.l. :) 02:13:51 sorry for trying to create a meaningful discussion instead of silence 02:14:19 anyways, as _3b, there is no lisp community, so there is no general community feeling. 02:14:21 clojure - cute, kinda hacky, gratuitously incompatible, runs on a platform I don't care about, not worth the trouble of switching from CL 02:14:24 there's a lot of opinions 02:14:27 like hefner's 02:14:35 _3b, thanks for at least a somewhat on-topic reply 02:14:53 hefner, gratuitously incompatible with what? 02:15:04 Common Lisp. 02:15:22 in the sense of different syntax/semantics? 02:15:33 *_3b* likes some of the immutable data structures, but has no need for java 02:16:07 *sykopomp* avoids java like the plague. 02:16:41 .net is the plague 02:16:46 chessguy: at the library level 02:16:52 they're both the same thing, in my mind. 02:16:53 ... When do the locusts show up? 02:16:57 chavo_ [n=user@c-66-41-11-10.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:08 nyef: right before the frogs? 02:17:15 Ah. 02:17:17 how do clojure's concurrency constructs compare with other implementations? it's supposed to be a selling point 02:17:17 no, that was the flies 02:17:21 which came after the dead fish 02:17:33 meh, c#, dead fish, same thing 02:17:43 I think I'd program in C# before Java. 02:17:50 chessguy, you might get better answers from the clojure list 02:18:01 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:18:04 chessguy: this really is a common lisp channel. 02:18:07 maybe I'm biased because I've used Java and not C#, and I'm just a hopeless optimist. 02:18:09 manic12, i'd get more clojure-biased answers, which isn't what i'm looking for 02:18:17 hefner: it has closures! 02:18:20 most people here like myself like to bury their head in the sand for anything not CL 02:18:23 hefner, i DO program in C# :) 02:18:29 my apologies. 02:18:38 C# does, I mean. 02:18:39 OLD c# no less 02:19:04 sykopomp, i'm looking for a CL perspective on clojure 02:19:15 chessguy: it's not CL, so I'm not interested. 02:19:21 or any-non-clojure-lisp perspective 02:19:23 bah 02:19:38 that's an honest, on-topic answer. 02:19:42 there is only one clojure using cl using person i know 02:20:08 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:20:24 It's not compelling enough to pull me away from common lisp, and I don't really see why it's seen by its proponents as the third coming of the Lambda (the second being scheme) 02:20:46 and of course, it doesn't have CLOS :) 02:20:55 i use CL every day. clojure is interesting because I'd like to use all my processors at once 02:20:56 manic12, if i recall correctly, Hickey (the creator of clojure) is a CLer 02:21:14 i don't know hickey 02:21:36 the immutable data structures, the ref idea, etc are interesting 02:21:40 maybe you should ask Hickey then 02:22:03 TimDalySr: the consing, man, the consing! 02:22:05 i'm just saying, it's not THAT rare 02:22:08 a number of CLers have had pleasant encounters with Clojure, documented in the blogosphere. billc, antifuchs, no doubt a few more. 02:22:44 <_3b> sykopomp: immutable has tables are less consing if you want to add an item or 2, then go back to previous state :) 02:22:53 for a certain class of problems (e.g. provisos) clojure is a hands-down favorite 02:23:03 provisos? 02:23:20 but that class of problems are the ones that require multiple processors ganging up on a single problem 02:24:30 can you be more specific? 02:24:32 i do computer algebra (axiom) and in that arena you run into provisos, which are something like an equation with a "provided clause", e.g. 1/x provided x !- 0 02:25:19 if i have a large computation that involves things like division, or hyperbolics with branch cuts, etc. then the answer can come out in multiple parts 02:25:42 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.151.192] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:25:45 this is not about raw numerical performance, I take it? 02:25:57 so the idea is that you dynamically break a computation up into a tree, where the tree branches on each proviso 02:25:58 _3b: do you have links to something that talks about this? that sounds interesting. 02:26:36 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@student166-252.hampshire.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:26:39 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:26:45 the "proviso" information gets rewritten into interval form and each subinterval becomes an assumption on a branching computation 02:26:56 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [] 02:27:10 So you split it out into a tree, and then run each leaf on a different CPU? 02:27:25 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:26 <_3b> sykopomp: not really, just remember seeing a video of one of Hickey's talks where he described the clojure hash tables (actually a tree of some sort) and thought they would be useful for my compiler 02:27:31 so 1/x x != 0 becomes.... ( 1/x x in [-inf,0) , 1/x x in [0,0], 1/x x in (0,+inf] ) 02:28:17 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:28:19 so you get 3 branches.... each subtree uses the interval for the variable.... so in the given example for 1/x, the leftmost subtree can assume that x is in [-inf,0) 02:28:41 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-33-26.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:28:45 <_3b> sykopomp: where i want to do stuff like (let ((*environment* (cons symbol-stuff *environment))) ...), but with th eperformance of a hash table instead of a plist 02:28:46 since you can't tell from a problem how much it will branch you can't statically allocate processors 02:29:10 most CL implementations end up bottlenecking on locks 02:29:16 there do need to be new lisps though 02:29:34 so you have 8 processors but only see 3x speedups 02:29:46 hickey's clojure seems to scale linearly 02:29:54 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:56 <_3b> manic12: i'd be happy with more stuff surviving from old lisps :) 02:30:26 _3b: ah. 02:30:27 TimDalySr, i've been thinking that clojure would be a nice environment to play around with multi-core genetic programming 02:30:36 ugh 02:31:00 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:31:08 I'm sure Clojure makes it very easy to write code that runs on all 8 of your CPU cores, and finishes the job slower than efficient code on a single core. 02:31:31 hefner, why do you conjecture that? 02:31:33 *hefner* wishes people would make up their mind what they want when they talk about concurrency 02:31:43 hefner, but it looks cool 02:32:30 since the dynamic subtrees in provisos are completely independent, no single-core cpu implementation can outrun a multicore 02:32:36 TimDalySr: because there's no such thing as a free lunch, among other reasons 02:33:27 my coworker once said that when a salesman was taking us to lunch, true, but the wrong thing to say (off topic sorry) 02:33:37 yes, and therefore nothing can possibly be any better than what you're currently using, hefner 02:33:41 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 02:34:09 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-238.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:30 CL implementations trip over the shared state problem and slow down on locking, thus eating your free lunch. 02:34:36 -!- nooper [i=nooper@2001:41c8:0:866:21c:c0ff:fe7f:7198] has left #lisp 02:34:53 almost everything has this problem. python has the "global interpreter lock" issue (GIL) 02:35:00 I don't want to pick on Clojure, not having much idea about its performance (other than a vague second hand impression about it not being tremendously fast), but this seems like a recent and irritating trend of some people hoping the new language of the day will magically solve these problems in a high performance setting 02:35:03 most multithreaded stuff based on shared data ends up bottlenecked by locks 02:35:05 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 02:35:07 jfactor [n=jfactor@student166-252.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 02:35:10 hickey has been very careful not to get caught with this 02:35:30 chessguy: I did not say that. 02:35:35 TimDalySr: his 'followers' are a different matter. 02:35:56 well, you can't choose your followers :-) 02:36:20 I found clojure to be quite nice language, though I'm no great fan of STM - I prefer zero-share-state with message passing myself 02:36:22 regardless, expecting near peak performance from a dynamic language on top of the JVM just fails a certain common sense test 02:36:25 I'm a bit afraid of [] and Java :-P 02:36:32 there are very few problems where the parallelism is separable but not massively so 02:36:38 [] is indeed quite irritating 02:37:09 anyway, I'm off to sleep, good trolling^Wnight 02:37:11 oh, i'm not real happy with the syntactic changes 02:37:19 p_l: Sleep well. 02:37:34 I'll admit that the [] put me off clojure immediately. :) 02:37:54 hefner: scheme does the same thing :( 02:38:03 (or rather, certain implementations) 02:38:10 ..but I'm sure he has a perfectly good reason, which I'm not interested in discovering. ;) 02:38:11 Heh. Lispers scared off by wierd syntax? 02:38:29 lisp doesn't have weird syntax, everything else does. 02:38:40 nyef: my keyboard is (declare (optimize (speed 3) (debug 0))) for () 02:38:43 just turns out that weird is status quo :-P 02:38:44 JAS415: Next you'll be telling me that you don't speak with an accent. 02:38:44 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:55 [] is sub-optimal :\ 02:39:00 nyef: isn't picking on perl syntax a popular lisper pastime? 02:39:01 I don't speak with an accent! :-P 02:39:39 "() is the only bracket that is beautiful and elegant" 02:39:45 lol 02:39:49 hefner: I suppose it beats picking on perl semantics. 02:40:10 but which is easier? 02:41:09 the key question is whether the syntax makes program==data 02:41:36 well really the syntax should be independent of the program if code is data 02:41:38 if (print (eval (read))) works and macros do the right thing then its ok 02:41:50 independent of the semantics? 02:41:54 All programs are data. Otherwise we would not have compilers or interpreters. 02:42:10 nyef, try not to miss the point 02:42:23 nyef: the question is how easy that data is to manipulate, then? 02:42:30 Exactly. 02:43:04 ok, but if its data, then why does it have to have a certain syntax when viewed? 02:43:06 i mean like 02:43:09 i get an xml file 02:43:19 And there's your first mistake: Using XML. 02:43:26 i can open it with two different xlst things and i get differentviews 02:43:34 why can't i do that with my lisp code? 02:43:52 <_3b> JAS415: you didn't write the transforms yet? 02:43:59 hmm 02:44:13 Just because something isn't done doesn't necessarily mean it can't or shouldn't. 02:44:22 JAS415, if you need a parser that is different or an extension of (read) then your program is not data 02:44:53 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 02:44:56 ISTR reading a while back about a visualization for Lisp code that was all colored background boxes and no parens. 02:45:21 well what if i were storing my program in something more abstract than a text file, like an sql database? 02:45:35 JAS415: seek help. 02:45:43 <_3b> like a git repository you mean? 02:45:46 then to view it as code i run it through some sort of parser than represents what is in my database 02:45:53 yeah except all the code 02:46:09 axiom has an internal language called boot, which is a block-structured, syntactic sugar of lisp (looks a LOT like python). but its not a lisp language because it requires a separate parser to read it 02:46:11 That way lies madness. Or CRM applications. I'm not sure there's a difference. 02:46:20 *_3b* wants to do that (if i understand right) 02:46:49 *_3b* is wary of the madness in that direction though :) 02:47:24 tim, i don't understand why the seperate parser would make something non-lisp 02:47:44 that's by definition of lisp 02:48:29 There's an argument there, and yet not there. 02:48:44 the unification of programs and data makes it possible to write programs that construct programs (e.g. macros) 02:49:00 sure, that's the nature of an image 02:49:05 take any other language that claims to be "lisp without parens" e.g. python 02:49:11 *_3b* would argue that if you use built-in facilities to implement the parser, it is still lisp 02:49:15 JAS415: I don't think it has anything to do with image based programming. 02:49:21 Smalltalk has an image but not macros. 02:49:32 and you'll discover that they can't do macros 02:49:56 they can do anything they like, for they are old gods from the times before man 02:49:58 TimDalySr: what about if you have a parser that parses to a defined (in the language definition) datastructure representing the AST 02:50:04 That's Lisp, right? 02:50:12 -!- HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:50:14 when you (read) a lisp structure you can write down the internal cons cell structure for it, which is equivalent to a list object 02:50:14 But it doesn't have to be a parenthesized syntax. 02:50:23 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:50:31 but if i can view my code as a parse tree (lisp syntax), and a C++ syntax, and as python syntax, and as pascal syntax, depending on what i want, it would have all the macrofacilities 02:50:49 of a lisp and none of the syntax complains 02:50:52 complaints* 02:51:03 however i like lisp syntax 02:51:04 JAS415, there are hundreds of "lisp without parens" languages 02:51:11 all of them miss the fundamental point 02:51:23 Yeah, if you have a custom parser that spits out an AST such as sexps, and you define macros in terms of the AST, it's perhaps harder to write macros but you can still do it. 02:51:44 john mccarthy was in the front row of a python talk when guido claimed that python was "lisp without parens" and john called him on it 02:52:09 Maybe "without parens" is just shorthand for "without macros". 02:52:19 try, for instances to write #1=(a . #1#) in python 02:52:29 or any other "lisp without parens" language 02:52:41 *nyef* points out that there are lisps where you can't do that either. 02:52:52 I'd hardly consider CL broken if they took out that feature. 02:53:12 CL couldn't be CL without them. 02:53:21 gigamonkey if you take out that feature it is not possible to have read/write equivalence of a circular structure 02:53:22 -!- legumbre` is now known as legumbre 02:53:31 see: setf, def*, with-* 02:53:34 -!- rolly1975 [n=rory@5ac959a9.bb.sky.com] has quit ["The computer fell asleep"] 02:53:37 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 02:53:47 TimDalySr: yeah, but somehow I'd live. 02:54:11 that's because you probably don't create things like infinite streams (usedin axiom) that are circular 02:54:14 i guess my fundamental point was that if code is data, then i should be able to look at code in whatever syntax that I want, the underlying data should be the same for whatever program i'm producing 02:54:40 not that i wouldn't use lisp syntax, rather that i would be able to use /whatever/ syntax 02:54:41 JAS415: The problem is that most programming languages have an intimate tie between syntax and semantics. 02:54:57 JAS415, all programs are "data".... but not all programs can manipulate their program semantic structure as data 02:54:58 TimDalySr: Probably. But i don't see the ability to do that as fundamental to The Lisp Way. 02:55:07 But reasonable folks could differ on that, I suppose. 02:55:08 And there are some semantic concepts that you can't represent in some syntaxes. 02:55:37 gigamonkey: what is "a lisp" to you, then? 02:56:23 I'd expect parens, macros, first-class functions. 02:57:06 Nyef, what type of things? I understand how it would be hard to write a macro in C, for example 02:57:15 This sort of reminds me of a game we invented at a place I worked: The Salad Game. 02:57:34 Rules: Anything that is explicitly called "salad" is. Thus "chicken salad" is salad. 02:57:35 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:53 hehe 02:57:53 JAS415: A method combination in C++? 02:58:00 Then: define a predicate, salad-p 02:58:01 gigamonkey: Angry fruit salad? 02:58:14 We may have limited it to the domain of food. 02:58:31 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:58:55 It started when someone described their Chinese takeout as "a salad" since it had vegetables in it. 02:58:59 well, vmlisp used to define lisp as any language that allowed you to do (setq nil t) 02:59:17 Impressive. 02:59:44 SBCL can give some fun error messages if you try that in different ways. 02:59:46 confusing, but it did "the right thing" (which means you could define what it would do and show that was correct) 02:59:49 Thus by the salad game rules, lexical scoping is not part of the lisp-p predicate since Emacs Lisp uses dynamic scoping. 03:00:15 oy, don't get into lisp-1 vs lisp-2 (/me cringes) 03:00:56 akcom [i=akcom@rrcs-67-79-132-132.se.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:00:58 Can we get into the effect of AutoLISP in the effect of the salad-game lisp-p predicate? 03:01:13 chessguy: see what you did? 03:01:23 hefner, indeed 03:01:32 hefner, my intentions were honest though... 03:01:42 nyef: I don't know enough about AutoLISP to know what that does to us. 03:01:59 I'll be happy to ignore newlisp though. ;-) 03:01:59 chessguy: The road to lis^H^H^Hhell... 03:02:21 chessguy: I totally called your troll. 03:02:37 but I'll rate you 8/10 for the mess you started :) 03:02:57 heh. that'd be great if i gave a crap what you rated me... 03:03:03 <_3b> well, if it is AutoLISP, that only affects the definition of LISP, not Lisp :) 03:03:08 Okay, what about those wierd systems with "E as a lambda-list-keyword? 03:03:23 _3b: Not if you use a case-folding reader. :-P 03:03:33 <_3b> nyef: true 03:03:37 nyef: what did "e do? :-o 03:03:59 <_3b> presumblay prevent evaluation of those args? 03:04:04 sykopomp: As near as I could tell, it caused the argument to be quoted at the call site. 03:04:09 So I guess one question is: has there been a Rule 1 Lisp (i.e. it is called lisp) that didn't have some form of macros? 03:04:15 I guess maybe Lisp 1.5. 03:04:36 gigamonkey: I thought lisp 1.5 still supported s-exps 03:04:39 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 03:04:55 sykopomp: It did. But I I don't think macros had been invented yte. 03:04:56 so it would still support macros, right? Even with m-expressions dangling off it like a (very large) wart? 03:04:56 No, because Lisp 1.5 had FEXPRs, which were semantically equivalent (were they FEXPRs, or am I mixing up names again?). 03:04:59 yet, even. 03:05:16 nyef: I thought it had both m-exps and s-exps. 03:06:03 sykopomp: sexps don't necessarily imply macros. 03:06:10 LEXPRS..FEXPRS...maclisp..../me runs away screaming about my old programming habits 03:06:22 sykopomp: No, ignore the whole m-exprs thing. There was some mechanism that was recognizably a macro-function prior to the advent of destructuring arglists and quasiquote. It was thus verbose, but you had macros in a sense. 03:07:02 HAHAHAHA! https://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.scheme/browse_thread/thread/4b0ec0ef70c8d71b 03:07:07 Read the first message. 03:07:36 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:45 ... Wasn't that in Pragmatic Programmers or something? 03:07:55 *_3b* thought casting spels 03:08:14 If you don't know, read the third message. 03:08:16 Oh well. 03:08:19 Yeah, I see it now. 03:08:22 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.233.53] has joined #lisp 03:08:23 gigamonkey: googling yourself? =p 03:08:25 I was thinking about Casting SPELs the other day. 03:08:37 <_3b> ah, that would explain it too :) 03:09:01 <_3b> sykopomp: someone has been asking about it a lot lately 03:09:02 hefner: actually no, I googled Lisp 1.5 macros and then saw a thread, "help finding the fable of how lisp macros began" and though, "Ah, that looks promising." 03:09:37 macros are seriously vital to my "programming game". 03:09:38 I can't quite tell if the OP thought the "fable" was actually trueish. 03:09:52 ... I really should see if I could expense a copy of PCL as a continuing education expense while I'm still doing Siebel work... 03:10:39 I'd say that Lisp 1.5's FEXPRS count as "macros". 03:10:57 i've been lisping for 38 years and a lot of my programs have what they now call DSL (domain specific languages) in them. i usually ask the people to write down what they want to say, wrap some parens around what they write, and then make a language of it and implement it in macros 03:11:22 so the fact that macros expand into executable lisp code is vital to me 03:12:06 the end user can almost read their original stuff (mangled a bit for technical reasons) and we can communicate very close to the problem specified 03:12:39 when i try that in other languages i always have to write a lot of stuff to "jump the impedence gap" 03:12:44 Anyway, my point was that even without quasiquote or destructuring-bind, if you have even so much as FEXPRs and a well-defined surface-syntax to AST mapping, you have macros, even without a SEXP-format surface syntax. 03:13:02 38 years. wow. that's impressive 03:13:06 nah 03:13:14 live long enough and it will happen 03:13:18 :( 03:13:43 *nyef* probably only needs another 16 years to have been programming for 38, but much longer to have been lisping for as long. 03:13:43 I'm gonna hit my 1-year lisping anniversary sometime in two months or so... 03:14:01 reading this is depressing :P 03:14:23 i learned lisp VERY early (first few months of school). 03:15:13 war story: i worked on an ibm mainframe that didn't have lisp. i found a guy at IBM research that wrote one (fred blair) and asked for a copy using real department letterhead paper 03:15:53 years later i ended up at ibm research working with fred (although i didn't remember his name) and one day i told him how i got into lisp... he pulled my letter out of his desk drawer 03:16:04 which was way cool, at least for me 03:16:26 Neat. 03:16:27 if you're ever in a jam, i have a fortran implementation you can use 03:17:28 oh, and in case you think open source is a new idea, fred sent me the lisp implementation in 360 assembler (which is also around here somewhere). i typed it in and assembled it. 03:17:42 TimDalySr: it's very belated, but thanks for coming to Nashville 03:17:44 (end of war story) 03:18:01 tsuru? eh? 03:18:30 methinks you're confusing me with my son, who is also a major lisp freak 03:18:32 well I sure hope it was you at OOPSLA in nashville... that war story sounds familiar.... 03:18:43 TimDalySr, got any suggestions for how to get into a lisp career? 03:18:49 i wish 03:18:59 my jobs collapsing around me 03:19:01 <_3b> chessguy: make a lisp startup :) 03:19:05 so get in line :-) 03:19:17 _3b, yeah, the economy's perfectly poised for that 03:19:29 let me just run out and get a loan 03:19:36 back in 5 03:19:40 but i hack axiom, which is about 1M "things" (i hesitate to say lines) of lisp 03:19:43 <_3b> chessguy: what, by making the uncertainty less in comparison? :) 03:20:09 -!- mogunus [n=user@173.9.7.10] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:20:59 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:21:36 <_3b> chessguy: and ITA seems to be always hiring if you don't like that idea 03:21:55 guys like fred blair (vmlisp) and bill schelter (gnu common lisp) were awesome people 03:23:16 bill sat at my desk one day and ran into a problem with emacs. he downloaded the sources, found, fixed, tested, and uploaded the fix, then continued working in the new emacs 03:23:23 not so impressive except that this was 1988 03:23:33 it was a real education for me 03:26:41 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["DON'T PANIC"] 03:29:29 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 03:30:50 just read the defmacro story. funny. 03:31:22 which brings up another feature of lisp, which is the ability to self-modify while running 03:31:36 i've used this on several occasions for programs that learn 03:36:22 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:36:30 TimDalySr: you mean the Story of Mac? 03:37:16 Is anybody here using the common lisp interface to gnuplot? 03:41:08 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:41:44 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:41:50 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:49:44 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@2001:6f8:10f6:200:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:56:19 -!- beach` is now known as beach 03:57:12 Good morning. 03:58:59 Hello beach. 04:01:28 kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 04:04:07 morning. 04:05:10 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:05:38 I've got a custom executable, where I have a custom :toplevel that ends up calling toplevel-init. I can't seem to figure out how to change the package the repl comes up in. Anyone have an ideas? 04:06:05 You've tried binding *PACKAGE*? 04:06:25 You've tried wrapping the normal REPL function with a lambda that binds *PACKAGE*? 04:06:45 as in (let ((*package* (find-package :foo))) (sb-impl:toplevel-init))? 04:07:40 Well, if you bind it around toplevel-init, it might well affect which package toplevel options are read into... 04:08:21 Umm... You might try setting or binding *package* around your call to SLAD. 04:08:57 Not coming up with much more in the way of ideas here, I'm afraid. 04:09:07 kk 04:10:31 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-68-239-77-4.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:10:42 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 04:11:28 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 04:12:42 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-66-41-11-10.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:16:18 -!- TimDalySr [n=user@dynamic-acs-72-23-19-139.zoominternet.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:16:25 nyef: you let me down the right path. wrapping my custom function called in :toplevel with a (let ((*package* (find-package :foo))) (startup-foo)) did the trick 04:16:42 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@c-24-34-16-25.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 04:16:44 (toplevel-init) is called in startup-foo 04:19:13 Cool. 04:19:31 No one got this joke. :( --> "SLiPPY: But, I realize lispy syntax and stuff has its cons." 04:19:57 what do you mean? 04:21:15 That's... pretty bad. 04:21:41 -!- akcom [i=akcom@rrcs-67-79-132-132.se.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:21:41 nyef, what types do the type bits represent on sbcl? 04:21:56 manic12: You mean the tags? 04:22:01 yes 04:22:51 Have a look at src/compiler/generic/early-objdef.lisp for the actual tag definitions. 04:23:00 ok, thx 04:23:58 The commentary is clearly outdated, though. 04:24:19 is it type dependent how many tag bits are used? 04:24:26 Since it says that ODD-FIXNUM-LOWTAG has to be 4, and that's not universally true anymore (it can sometimes be 8). 04:25:02 Some types can be represented with "just" a lowtag. Some of the lowtags indicate an "immediate" type which has a widetag and a data area. 04:25:27 FIXNUMs are representable with just lowtags, characters are immediates with widetags. 04:25:54 And then there are pointer types, and with one exception they have a header with its own widetag. 04:26:39 The exception is CONSes, which are the only non-immediate heap object that doesn't have a header. 04:26:57 There's also a silliness with NIL. 04:27:16 ok, so basically fixnums, characters and and pointer types 04:27:37 There are other immediate types than just that, but yeah. 04:28:14 -!- Pegazus [n=awefawe@host11.190-31-40.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:28:14 i'm trying to figure out how one could add length mass time and unitless to all numbers 04:28:28 ? 04:29:27 00 unitless 01 length 10 mass 11 time (need two bits) 04:30:21 So you want to add two extra type bits to all numeric types? 04:30:31 yes 04:30:36 ... Why? 04:30:48 to add units to numbers 04:31:08 ... Why? 04:31:16 this wouldn't be a standard lisp, it would be for a CAD language 04:31:53 I would recommend starting by defining a higher-level implementation first. 04:32:08 there already are some 04:32:18 Actually trying to mix things up at the machine representation level, especially in SBCL, is going to be a lot of work. 04:32:44 i think for engineering applications it's worth it 04:33:28 also i wouldn't bother with 32 bit machines 04:33:57 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:34:23 my plans are not to add this soon 04:34:44 Have you considered the impact this change would have on the type system? 04:35:02 that's why I'm asking you 04:35:14 no, it wouldn't be common lisp anymore 04:35:33 Why do you only need to tag length/mass/time, and not specific units such as inches, centimeters, seconds, minutes, and so on? 04:36:13 i figure i could represent everything mks and have a *print-units* variable 04:36:54 "mks"? 04:37:13 mks= meter kilogram second 04:37:18 Ah. 04:37:42 How standard is this in your application domain? 04:38:20 all the CAD systems I have used have had some sort of units support 04:38:31 Not quite what I meant. 04:38:41 i know 04:38:52 How standard is performing all computations in terms of meters, kilograms and seconds? 04:39:14 meters kilograms seconds and unitless 04:39:37 You're attempting to avoid my question. 04:39:43 *dimensionless 04:39:53 in engineering its all pervasive 04:40:03 Really? 04:40:16 computer science has been avoiding the question 04:40:29 That includes circuit layout, then? You specify your PCB trace widths in meters? 04:40:32 you actually need more than four 04:40:42 PCB traces are in mils 04:40:53 usually >_> 04:41:06 Okay, so you've just run out of type bits. 04:41:08 coulombs or amperes candelas and i can't remember the other one or two 04:41:18 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-238.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:41:58 but for now I Length Mass & time are ok, and do the rest with pointer types 04:42:05 i'd assume the computations ignore units, and the logic takes care of making sure things are in the right units 04:42:34 like i said, you assume MKS and just display or read in other units 04:42:47 Yeah, I'd probably have a DSL that tracked the units associated with values and converted as appropriate. 04:43:00 Somewhat like SB-ALIEN, in fact. 04:43:54 just like -1.0d-3 is read in as a double float -1.0d-3kg could be read in as kilograms in double float 04:44:13 You're really asking for trouble if you can't specify the unit types for a calculation. 04:44:26 -1.0d-3slugs 04:44:37 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:45:47 the idea is to be able to enter in any unit and display in any unit and combine in congruent fashion 04:46:04 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:28 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:47:23 I'd hate to do circuit simulation in such a system. 04:47:40 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Client Quit] 04:47:48 Or maybe I wouldn't. But still... I think it's a mistake to not have a richer type system. 04:48:05 dreish_ [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 04:48:08 And that means moving it away from the machine types and expressing it at a higher level. 04:48:09 ok, extend it to have all the units 04:49:54 i don't want a clos object or struct or array or a cons for every number i use 04:50:23 Why not? 04:50:44 Or, perhaps more pertinent, why not, if the compiler can elide them much of the time? 04:51:15 because you have to rewrite all the math operators either way you go and it would be slower to use higher level constructs 04:52:13 nyef, maybe compiler extensions 04:52:42 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:52:45 but you would have to declare (units foo kilogram) 04:53:09 why write more declares? 04:53:43 even then you can still pass the wrong number into a function from the repl 04:54:52 Why write more declares? Because it can help immensely. At the same time, why not tell the compiler more about your functions so that it can derive types better so you don't need so many declares? 04:56:21 Anyway, it's getting close to local midnight. I'm going to try and get some sleep. 04:56:25 -!- nyef [n=nyef@24.220.182.229] has quit ["G'night all."] 04:56:52 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 04:59:18 wow there are 14 unused bit patterns in these widetags 05:02:14 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 05:03:17 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:04:59 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:05:17 -!- dreish_ is now known as dreish 05:05:23 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.233.53] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:07:48 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:11:53 hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:34 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-84.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:24:43 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 05:25:39 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:36 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:18 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-213-143.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:49 I need to learn how to use the TV or something 05:38:56 -!- X-Scale2 [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has quit [Client Quit] 05:39:12 X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has joined #lisp 05:39:19 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-73-138.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:50:20 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:50:23 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:04:24 lakedenma [n=irchon@166.193.69.158] has joined #lisp 06:06:50 -!- lakedenma [n=irchon@166.193.69.158] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:07:07 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@68.231.38.131] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:08:36 headache [n=heahead@88.238.42.130] has joined #lisp 06:10:43 i'm trying to setup cl packages using clbuild in xubuntu, but everytime i try to install something with clbuild, i get ./clbuild: line 848: trap: exit: invalid signal specification 06:10:43 error 06:13:06 and when i try clbuild check, i get "/home/headache/clbuild/systems/*.asd. No such file or directory" thing 06:13:15 :\ 06:13:19 any idea? 06:14:53 <_3b> how did you get clbuild? 06:15:00 darcs 06:15:53 and i downloaded all the dependencies with apt get, and sbcl, again with aptget 06:19:49 i have no idea where is the problem since it seems like a very simple process. download from darcs. chmod. run. but it doesn't work. it confirms all the dependencies and sbcl while checking but then gives no asd error. it seems normal because there is really not even one file since i couldn't download anything, but why i can't download anything part is not normal:\ 06:21:17 ejs [n=eugen@79-135-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:08 trap: exit: ... sounds like your bash doesn't support trap properly 06:24:38 <_3b> looks like it should be EXIT instead of exit 06:24:54 SacreBleu_ [n=user@122.162.233.53] has joined #lisp 06:25:06 <_3b> headache: are you using an unusual locale? 06:25:47 <_3b> turkish locales supposedly break that 06:25:50 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:25:55 hmm 06:26:02 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:26:19 i m sorry what do you mean by "locale"? 06:26:54 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:27:13 but there is no turkish chars in my user folder if you ask that 06:27:22 <_3b> try echo $LANG at bash prompt 06:27:37 <_3b> no, the language you picked when you install, not chars in filesystem 06:27:54 tr_TR.UTF-8 06:27:59 yes i picked turkish 06:28:05 is that the problem :\ 06:28:43 <_3b> sounds like it, try editing the clbuild script, and everywhere it says 'trap something exit' change it to 'trap something EXIT' and see if it works better 06:29:31 <_3b> "something" in this case appears to always be "cleanup" 06:29:59 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 06:30:12 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:34 if it will cause more problems i can change the lang to english, i don't care as long as i can set keymap local :) 06:31:07 <_3b> well, i'm sure if that fixes it, the clbuild maintainers would like to know so other people don't have problems :) 06:31:14 <_3b> changing exit to EXIT that is 06:31:37 _3b, thanks, i'll try it now. 06:34:07 ahahaha it works :D 06:34:18 _3b, is it a common problem? 06:34:44 <_3b> no idea, was second hit on your error message though :) 06:34:56 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-148-234.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:35:16 :) 06:41:22 _3b, anyway, thank you so much :) 06:41:41 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:43:38 drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-134-42.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:46:51 -!- headache [n=heahead@88.238.42.130] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:51:12 roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:51 trvr [n=trvr@117.193.194.219] has joined #lisp 07:00:58 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-204.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:01:18 ?: why clsql returns string even after giving result-type as :double 07:01:43 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:04:03 wedgeV [n=wedge@80.122.51.198] has joined #lisp 07:09:20 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 07:15:25 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 07:15:53 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@80.122.51.198] has quit [] 07:22:37 CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.106.29] has joined #lisp 07:28:31 doxtor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-9-108.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:49 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.106.29] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:31:19 -!- trvr [n=trvr@117.193.194.219] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:31:22 nostoi [n=nostoi@159.Red-81-44-159.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:25 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:32:26 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:36:28 _3b: haha, neat. Presumably that's because in tr_TR i upcases to uppercase-i-with-dot 07:36:44 <_3b> yeah, that was the explanation i saw 07:37:11 that doesn't sound like a sane thing for bash to be doing in interpreting its own command words, but... :-) 07:38:31 <_3b> well, being caqse insensitive seems like a reasonable thing to do, if you can get it right :) 07:39:13 *_3b* has no idea what 'right' is in that case though 07:40:30 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.34.241] has joined #lisp 07:40:56 drafael [n=tapio@118.90.134.119] has joined #lisp 07:41:00 upcase using the canonical relations not locale-dependent ones, I suspect 07:45:53 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@159.Red-81-44-159.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 07:47:23 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:47:36 -!- ejs [n=eugen@79-135-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:54:24 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:56:47 ejs [n=eugen@79-135-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has 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quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:03:28 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C824.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:04:02 -!- beach`` is now known as beach 09:11:14 elurin [n=user@81.213.201.55] has joined #lisp 09:15:02 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 09:16:15 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:17:46 HG` [n=wells@91.111.13.16] has joined #lisp 09:21:06 -!- roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 09:22:28 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-223.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:25:50 c|mell [n=cmell@x250033.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 09:27:05 HG`` [n=wells@91.108.74.20] has joined #lisp 09:27:05 chris2_ [n=chris@p5B16A49A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:27:54 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:29:18 -!- chris2_ is now known as chris2 09:31:49 -!- HG`` [n=wells@91.108.74.20] has quit [Client Quit] 09:34:46 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1A68.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:35:23 -!- HG` [n=wells@91.111.13.16] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:38:57 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-224.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:39:56 benny [n=benny@i577A237C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:44:08 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:45:02 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-208-14.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 09:46:38 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 09:48:53 In England, do you say "Master programme", "Masters programme" or "Master's programme"? 09:49:17 And what about the US? 09:50:29 I mean, in the US, do you say "Master program", "Masters program", or "Master's program"? 09:50:39 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:50:45 master('s?) 09:50:59 i think it's master's for the US 09:51:11 there's usually n S when people say it at least 09:51:33 ace4016: Yes, that's my impression as well. 09:51:36 How can i enable the debugger again in sbcl? 09:52:23 an* 09:52:28 (sb-ext:enable-debugger) ? 09:53:11 Doesn't exist. 09:53:45 no, it does 09:54:24 Wait is that a function? 09:54:34 yes 09:54:44 Ahh, ok. 09:55:02 what did you think it is? 09:56:04 I thought it was a global var. 09:56:27 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@85-250-200-180.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:56:35 it has no earmuffs and i put it in parenthesis 09:58:31 Indeed. 10:01:13 divinebovine [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:12 dwave [n=ask@084202073105.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 10:13:16 HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 10:17:50 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:44 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:24:14 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined 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[n=david@193.52.24.125] has joined #lisp 11:06:40 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-234-40.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 11:09:57 -!- elurin [n=user@81.213.201.55] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:12:43 wedgeV_ [n=wedge@80.122.51.198] has joined #lisp 11:12:46 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F398.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:51 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F398.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:14:48 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F398.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:03 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F398.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:25:15 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:33:43 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 11:37:39 Is there a cxml-stp repository somewhere? It'd be nicer than having to deal with the tarball.. 11:39:24 *deepfire* turns vaguely lichtblau-wards.. 11:42:08 I should just add a tarball backend, for once.. 11:43:31 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 11:45:46 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 11:46:50 why does this array have 2 in the widetag header? 11:47:35 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:47:40 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 11:50:37 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 11:52:45 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:34 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:02:57 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:03:33 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:09:19 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:11:09 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442133.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:12:01 -!- benny99 [n=bebenny@84.134.189.94] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 12:12:08 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:13:12 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:14:35 rolly1975 [n=rory@5ac959a9.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 12:14:59 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:54 lagenar [n=lucas@190.178.192.164] has joined #lisp 12:34:07 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:46:00 oudeis [n=oudeis@80.250.159.240] has joined #lisp 12:46:32 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 12:53:04 noboby understands defglobal 12:53:07 *nikodemus* cries a little 12:53:19 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:28 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 12:55:28 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:56:05 Is it possible to construct classes at runtime? Like writing a macro which emits (defclass...). 12:57:25 a macro that emits a DEFCLASS form wouldn't do it at runtime. 12:57:31 -!- SacreBleu_ [n=user@122.162.233.53] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:57:39 are you sure you want to define classes at /runtime/? 12:57:46 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:11 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:58:14 Purely hypothetical. :) 12:58:24 ensure-class 12:58:26 slash_: Yes, that's possible. Though it would be a function which does (EVAL `(defclass ...)) 12:58:35 no 12:58:41 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:58:42 ensure-class is a function 12:59:19 which is not defined in the ANSI standard, thank you. 12:59:30 who cares 13:00:24 neither are threads 13:01:02 or a ffi/alien system 13:01:42 With the macro i acutally meant, that the macro decides which part of the class will be included and which not. 13:02:38 you can choose at runtime what supers to include, what slots to include, what metaclass to use, you don't need a class name even 13:04:33 classes are just objects after all, you can make one with make-instance 13:05:39 type (make-instance 'standard-class) 13:06:02 then (make-instance *) 13:07:12 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.146.41] has joined #lisp 13:08:44 when I use eval, that is a pretty good indication i'm doing it wrong, unless of course it's (loop do (print (eval (read)))) 13:09:49 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 13:09:49 -!- kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:11:32 actually* 13:17:41 makes me surprised that in the marine corps they didn't say "here, make sure you point the rifle away from you before you pull the trigger" 13:19:32 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.146.41] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:19:45 hrr4_ [n=hrr4@p5081C824.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:24:59 mouratov [i=59bd883c@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2bd6dfa523780100] has joined #lisp 13:26:50 Hello 13:26:51 I'm cleaning up Cliki pages about HTML parsers 13:26:56 Can anyone tell me if there is any difference between CL-HTML-Parse and phtml? 13:27:05 these packages seem identical 13:27:18 hrr4__ [n=hrr4@p5081A8D8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:27:40 mouratov: they don't have the same name! 13:27:47 yeah :-P 13:28:00 maybe he meant features-wise 13:28:03 and thats the problem 13:28:20 both are based on xmlutils from Franz Inc 13:28:56 -!- drafael [n=tapio@118.90.134.119] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:29:04 Do you mean that not only there are libraries in Lisp, not only there are several libraries to do the same thing, but that there are even libraries providing different implementations under the same API? That's not possible! 13:29:28 check those packages 13:29:31 do some diffs 13:30:20 they are 99% the same, but done by different people on different time 13:30:46 both come on top of "html parse" search on Cliki 13:31:14 this seems like unnecessary duplication for me 13:31:23 rather than remove libraries, why not make a suggestion somewhere on what html parser to use? 13:31:24 a source of confusion 13:31:31 yeah, yeah! 13:31:48 mouratov: you don't say that you compared the IMPLEMENTATIONS and that it's those that are 99% the same. 13:31:49 and that's why I ask if there is any difference 13:32:04 diff -r phtml cl-html-parse 13:32:18 Why do you ask us when your computer is the best placed to answer? 13:33:24 You see, the probbility that code of non trivial size developed by different people on different times be 99% the same is close to 0. 13:33:37 CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.106.29] has joined #lisp 13:34:17 yes 13:34:23 and that's why I am confused 13:34:43 So, are the implementations the same? 13:34:47 -!- hrr4_ [n=hrr4@p5081C824.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:35:24 as far as I can judge, yes 13:35:47 So one is probably a "fork" of the other. What are the differences? 13:36:12 the biggest difference is the name of those packages 13:36:34 the other could be a spoon or a spork 13:36:49 Isn't there a difference in the list of authors or in the copyright? 13:37:22 both packages claim to be "portable versions of html parser from xmlutils" 13:37:29 -!- dwave [n=ask@084202073105.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 13:37:45 both include ACL's If* macro 13:37:49 to make it portable 13:38:13 ok so these are not DIFFERENCES! What are the differences? 13:38:21 name 13:38:21 :-I 13:38:30 And what else? 13:38:49 hrr4_ [n=hrr4@80.129.198.190] has joined #lisp 13:38:50 You told they were done by different people. Isn't there a difference in the list of authors or in the copyright? 13:38:58 yes 13:39:23 Yes there is, or yes there is not? 13:39:30 there is 13:39:45 So it's not only the name. 13:39:47 authors are different people 13:39:51 And what else is different? 13:40:05 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 13:40:12 one moment 13:40:58 -!- lagenar [n=lucas@190.178.192.164] has quit ["Saliendo"] 13:41:06 -!- hrr4 [n=hrr4@p50818FC6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 13:42:43 phtml includes macro "without-scheduling" 13:43:04 and several calls to it (several different lines in diff) 13:43:18 but I don't understand how it works 13:43:29 because I'm a newcomer to Lisp 13:43:44 welcome 13:43:44 So phtml would be "thread-safe"? 13:43:48 who searches for a simple html parser :-) 13:43:59 Isn't that an old macro that no longer works in the presence of threads? 13:44:35 one moment, I'll make a diff to xmlutils (from which both these libraries originate) 13:44:35 It may be implementation specific anyways. 13:44:55 both claim to be portable 13:45:01 There are 19 differences between the sources of the two. 13:45:10 minion: tell mouratov about closure-html 13:45:10 closure-html: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/closure-html 13:45:20 hrr4 [n=hrr4@80.129.164.247] has joined #lisp 13:45:32 closure-html seemed heavy for me 13:45:42 it has two big dependencies 13:46:00 flexi-streams and closure-common 13:46:17 is it good at parsing broken html? 13:46:45 depends how broken 13:46:51 :-) 13:46:55 Is there a generally available realization of the linda model for common lisp? 13:47:21 mouratov: why not try it to see if it fits your needs ? 13:48:06 I will, thanks for a recommendation 13:49:38 verendus [n=brendan@173-22-221-125.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 13:49:39 It still confuses me that there is no _standard_ library for parsing xml\html 13:49:45 and no _best_ library 13:49:57 Yeah, that's confusing to some. 13:51:58 -!- hrr4__ [n=hrr4@p5081A8D8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:52:00 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@80.250.159.240] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:55:04 it's often the case that a lisp hacker will write a library specific to their application and not completely generalize it for everyone 13:56:27 that's one reason i think why CL doesn't have a lot of standardize libraries because many people want something custom and tuned anyway 13:56:36 milanj [n=milan@93.87.141.81] has joined #lisp 13:56:49 and a newcomer then has to compare stuff :) 13:57:24 afaik closure-html is the generally suggested one 13:57:32 yeah, it's tough, webservers are an example, they all have their differences but they all serve http 13:57:35 mouratov: well, you see, the people who do that don't think first of the potential problems to newcomers, but of their own needs. 13:58:08 *manic12* is guilty 13:58:27 a 'batteries-included' common lisp package would be golden for the kinds of me 13:58:59 as "batteries-included ocaml" is 13:59:36 it would probably be the case that their would be several competing batteries included systems before one standardized one in common lisp! 13:59:41 lisp in a box is one of those 14:00:00 the lack of a modern standard library considerably rises entry barrier to Common Lisp 14:00:09 there is not even a standart socket library :-( 14:00:12 *d 14:00:18 the first time i tried lisp in a box I noted that it came in two boxes 14:00:47 hehe 14:00:52 mouratov: and some lisp hackers don't find that an unfavorable quality 14:01:14 so the solution for a newcomer is - 14:01:25 to learn a lot and become a lisp hacker? 14:01:28 once you get deep enough into lisp you tend to want to tweak everything 14:01:34 mouratov: use a different langauge 14:01:35 in order to get things done? 14:01:39 *language 14:01:50 mouratov: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/33302883a5163d76 14:02:30 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:30 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:03:41 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:56 thanks, tcr 14:04:56 that system of choosing a library is applicable to any type of library 14:04:58 right? 14:05:17 -!- hrr4_ [n=hrr4@80.129.198.190] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:05:52 there are native libraries, which work out of the box and a well documented; 14:05:55 mouratov: To some extent. 14:06:36 then there are general purpose portable libraries, which may bug and not be documented as well 14:06:36 mouratov: what do you mean by "native" here ? 14:06:44 native to implementation 14:06:46 -!- rolly1975 [n=rory@5ac959a9.bb.sky.com] has quit ["The computer fell asleep"] 14:07:13 that come packages with it 14:07:49 then, there are special-purpose libraries mostly done by people for their personal projects 14:08:08 mouratov: If you're in need for something, just come here and ask for what experience people can share, or ask on other fora. 14:08:10 these have some special features, but might have zero documentation :-) 14:08:47 Frontier [n=klo@cnp233.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:08:48 but why there is no page that covers, for example, html parsers 14:08:58 like a "html parser survey for Common Lisp" 14:09:06 hi someone want fight ? http://froni.mybrute.com 14:09:15 mouratov: because nobody cared to write one ? 14:09:18 lisp hackers like to hack more than document 14:09:18 -!- Frontier [n=klo@cnp233.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has left #lisp 14:09:18 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:18 mouratov, write one when you have taken a look at them? 14:09:24 then I will 14:09:31 goes for many languages though 14:09:46 mouratov: I'd just use closure-html probably because I know and value the authors 14:10:23 closure-html has worked for me 14:11:01 then why does "html parse" search on Cliki give phtml and CL-HTML-Parse as top choices 14:11:02 legumbre` [n=user@r190-135-46-142.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 14:11:31 when I finish comparing all this HTML-Parsing stuff, I will make a page on Cliki 14:11:34 mouratov: because nobody is responsible for the completeness of those pages. 14:11:45 the only thing I am afraid is - 14:12:00 I'm a newcomer and may write something stupid :-D 14:12:16 SacreBleu_ [n=user@122.162.233.53] has joined #lisp 14:12:53 http://www.cliki.net/Recent%20Changes 14:12:56 \o/ 14:13:09 those are mostly style tweaks 14:13:13 and cleaning ups 14:14:24 there seem to be no way of comparing revisions on Cliki 14:14:36 also, it looks butt ugly 14:14:46 which is subjective, of coure 14:14:54 *s 14:15:29 mouratov: That's good. It will keep you busy for quite a while. 14:17:11 oudeis [n=oudeis@77.124.71.204] has joined #lisp 14:17:38 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-31-23.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:20:38 I forget, was AMOP obtainable through regular channels still? 14:20:45 yes 14:20:55 I got mine through amazon 14:21:55 is there a "date" data type? How can I translate a string to it? 14:22:12 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.106.29] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:22:21 tcr: okay, I guess then I can throw out this one 14:22:39 konr: I'm sure there's a library providing it. 14:22:49 tcr, you were joking then when you said eval defclass? 14:23:07 manic12: why, it's okay to eval defclass 14:23:27 It's the only portable way to do it. 14:23:33 gio123 [n=gio123@host-193-186-177-164.heimbau.uni-linz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 14:23:38 http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=1254370 14:23:38 make-instance 'standard-class ? 14:23:55 can somebody download for me this paper? 14:24:40 how do you compile your initforms with an eval defclass? 14:25:17 Well you can always do (funcall (compile nil `(lambda () (defclass ,...)))) 14:25:37 what about lexical environment? 14:25:38 -!- mouratov [i=59bd883c@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2bd6dfa523780100] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 14:26:05 -!- verendus [n=brendan@173-22-221-125.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:26:16 verendus [n=brendan@173-22-221-125.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 14:26:41 what lexenv? 14:26:48 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-31-86.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:27:25 it just seems invoking eval or the compiler at runtime is doing something wrong, and anyone who has amop can implement their own ensure-class from make-instance 14:30:40 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:31:28 jewel [n=jewel@41.242.183.106] has joined #lisp 14:32:16 -!- jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:32:34 ASDF is failing to get the signature of every package it downloads. Is this normal? 14:33:04 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:33:10 that's been my experience with it 14:33:12 many distributors fail to include signatures 14:33:13 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-73-127.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:33:15 i use clbuild instead 14:33:55 -!- SacreBleu_ [n=user@122.162.233.53] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:35:27 vande [n=sdfpme@119.128.225.179] has joined #lisp 14:37:23 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 14:37:23 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:38:42 -!- vande [n=sdfpme@119.128.225.179] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:38:54 -!- verendus [n=brendan@173-22-221-125.client.mchsi.com] has quit ["leaving"] 14:39:09 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.217.125] has joined #lisp 14:40:29 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 14:41:47 manic12 pasted "lexical environment and making a class at runtime" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79208 14:44:27 What exactly does ASDF's COMPILE-OP do? 14:45:41 I mean translated to a sequence of COMPILE-FILE, LOAD operations 14:49:58 vy [n=user@88.229.113.20] has joined #lisp 14:50:55 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 14:52:17 milaz [n=milaz@85.172.99.97] has joined #lisp 14:52:45 The-Kenny [n=moritz@80.135.200.36] has joined #lisp 14:52:51 nyef [n=nyef@24.220.182.229] has joined #lisp 14:52:58 G'morning all. 14:53:04 good morning nyef 14:53:23 morning! 14:53:27 vande [n=sdfpme@119.128.225.179] has joined #lisp 14:53:29 good evening ;) 14:53:36 good morning! 14:54:49 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:15 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-19.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:56:59 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A49A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:59:34 nyef, I was noticing that adding units to any implementation which is similar to sbcl is, like you said, a major undertaking which would require changing everything on a low level (and then some), but it is possible :) 15:00:53 units? 15:00:59 Sure, it's possible. But it'd be both easier and more portable to do it at a higher level, along with more extensible and possibly just as efficient if not more so. 15:01:01 Good Evening all ;-) 15:01:37 as in meter and seconds? 15:01:49 the "just as efficient" is arguable 15:02:03 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@76.104.2.182] has joined #lisp 15:02:43 how do you portably change #'+ ? 15:02:58 Either a shadow package or a code-walker. 15:03:01 nyef pasted "An SBCL build-system hack" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79210 15:03:29 Arthur Lemmens had units implemented as library somewhere 15:03:47 i'm not sure if I have tried that one 15:05:05 perhaps it's not released, he showed it at a lisp meeting couple of years back 15:05:28 i would be interested in seeing it 15:05:33 Anyway, I think that the change in that patch set is interesting, but I'm not going to push for it to go into SBCL proper. 15:07:57 http://jwz.livejournal.com/1040129.html :) 15:09:21 we need something besides keyboards for inputing text efficiently (and quietly) 15:10:07 subvocalized speech-to-text based on a throat mic? 15:10:34 Oh, wait, that doesn't work. Some people type faster than they think. 15:10:47 chording keyboards? 15:10:50 *manic12* laughs 15:10:54 direct mind access? 15:11:09 ooo don't click that send button! 15:11:10 Gives new meaning to the term "DMA Controller", doesn't it? 15:11:48 :) 15:12:00 BTW, interesting keyboard layout in that post 15:12:57 The key to the right of Alt, you mean? 15:13:08 I alway knew that jwz and Freddie Kruger are the same person. 15:13:34 does anybody happen to remember the name of the blogger in europe somewhere that is making the symbolics keyboard to usb interfaces? 15:13:51 nyef: No, interesting placement of insert and home keys 15:14:07 i need one of those and i am bad at working with small tools 15:14:09 manic12: I should have him in my history, wait 15:14:21 it was Hans Hübner 15:14:29 http://netzhansa.blogspot.com/2009/04/reimplementing-symbolics-keyboard.html 15:14:32 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [] 15:14:49 Hunh. Didn't even notice that. 15:15:21 Why do symbolics keyboard have those keys with square, circle and triangle? 15:15:35 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:15:41 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:15:50 milaz: Because the more keys the merrier. 15:15:58 just to have an extra programmable key 15:16:02 Note also the Super and Hyper keys. 15:16:13 milaz: so you can input >8000 characters on it 15:16:31 Heh, Lisp machines with Lispy keyboards to type APL in. 15:16:31 *manic12* is wondering how to contact Hans H. 15:16:45 My colleagues are joking that these were for drawing 15:16:56 manic12: One way is to ask H4ns when he's in the channel. 15:17:02 ok 15:17:11 Or, you know, email. 15:17:17 how do you set one of those reminders? 15:17:27 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:17:40 Those reminders, as opposed to the other kind of reminders? 15:18:05 no the bot that tell people something next time they say something on #lisp 15:18:19 minion: memo for manic12: Like this. 15:18:19 Remembered. I'll tell manic12 when he/she/it next speaks. 15:18:35 thx 15:18:35 manic12, memo from nyef: Like this. 15:19:27 wow! 15:20:27 minion: memo for H4ns: I would like to get a teensy for symbolics keybord, will provide compensation 15:20:28 Remembered. I'll tell H4ns when he/she/it next speaks. 15:22:55 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:32 manic12: http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/ <--- some additional europe-based resources for symbolics hw 15:30:20 thanks p_l 15:31:00 my power supply is flakey, it's good to know there are additional sources for parts 15:31:33 *p_l* needs to reinstall his OpenGenera 15:32:29 i just want to make sure my lispm works, but use opengenera for working on symbolics stuff 15:32:45 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:25 get my lispm back up and transfer the disk contents to OG, see if I can figure out how to compile S Packages 15:35:09 installing OpenGenera on x86-64 was a good learning experience :) 15:36:19 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250033.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:37:52 it was funny installing OG on linux under vmware running on windows and having it boot up and say it's on a DEC alpha 15:38:18 does somebody knows angelic and demonic nondeterminism? 15:38:39 roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:41 It'd be funnier if you ran it under an Alpha emulator. 15:38:48 c|mell [n=cmell@x250043.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 15:38:51 ... That's a familiar looking troll. 15:39:22 yo nyef! what are you up to nowadays? 15:39:43 Workwise or funwise? 15:39:46 are sources available for snap4 or snapx for the vlm? 15:39:57 funwise 15:40:18 Today, I'm looking at windows product activation. Yesterday I was doing some SBCL hacking. 15:40:53 former does not sound very much like fun, though 15:41:18 It will be if I can run my existing XP install under virtualization. 15:42:41 manic12: I doubt it 15:43:10 snap4 itself is legal in most countries, I guess, however giving access to sources wouldn't be 15:43:25 Now, the tool to make snap4... that would be interesting 15:46:29 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:46:49 nyef: btw, I've got PALcode SDK 15:47:27 tcr: Oh, and I was working on a set of WinAPI bindings earlier, but am taking a break now due to having run into some non-optimalities with SB-ALIEN. 15:47:39 p_l: Ooh! The full SDK, and not just the manuals? 15:47:50 nyef: Full SDK 15:47:56 Nice! 15:48:14 I -still- need a better name for the emulator, though. 15:48:45 It includes PALcode and firmware source for 3 different motherboards 15:50:03 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 15:50:07 is the equipment still actually available 15:50:09 ? 15:50:25 rsynnott: which equipment? Alpha? 15:51:01 akcom [i=akcom@rrcs-67-79-132-132.se.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:51:08 nyef: there's even directory named "srom" :D 15:53:50 -!- milaz [n=milaz@85.172.99.97] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:54:16 ... rotfl, someone broke QoS on my net 15:54:47 (considering quality of the network, it's not surprising) 15:55:06 anyway, in some ~10 minutes, I should have ebsdk uploaded :) 15:58:34 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:59:58 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:02:09 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:03:22 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 16:03:46 -!- vande [n=sdfpme@119.128.225.179] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:04:43 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:06:08 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@76.104.2.182] has quit [] 16:12:02 karnath [n=karnath@ip92-101-207-115.onego.ru] has joined #lisp 16:12:50 -!- karnath [n=karnath@ip92-101-207-115.onego.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 16:13:45 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-200-111-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 16:14:30 p_l: yep 16:15:45 rsynnott: You can get used hw all the way from Jensen till GS1280 (but that would cost you dearly) 16:16:54 rsynnott: Not so long ago I had even seen one of the first workstations with Alphas 16:18:42 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-200-111-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:19:15 elurin [n=user@81.213.201.55] has joined #lisp 16:19:36 I've got mine for ~25EUR, but it has little memory 16:20:32 i first thought that ~25EUR is a format string... 16:20:58 clhs ~E 16:20:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ccb.htm 16:21:02 I guess it is. 16:21:15 lichtblau: Are you here? 16:22:01 minion: memo for nikodemus: In case you were still wondering about header values for vectors, that's a flag for the GC (weak(?) hash table vector) 16:22:01 Remembered. I'll tell nikodemus when he/she/it next speaks. 16:22:34 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-61.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:23:45 it there a way to add a nickname to an exiting package on the repl? i came up with (rename-package 'foo 'foo '(nick)), but the clhs says new-name being an existing package name had undefined consequences ... 16:23:55 unfortunately, getting memory for my alpha is quite hard if you don't want to order at expensive prices 16:24:13 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:40 Anyone with some time at hand who wants to help writing a test suite for named-readtables? 16:25:22 danlei: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.package:add-nickname "PACK" "NICK") 16:25:39 pjb: thanks 16:26:07 pjb: what does it do under the hood? 16:26:08 But it doesn't care for the undefined behavior you mention :-( 16:26:15 Same as rename-package. 16:26:27 We'd need to go thru a temporary name... 16:26:35 pjb: i see 16:27:07 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 16:29:15 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:06 rolly1975 [n=rory@5ac959a9.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 16:32:34 -!- roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 16:35:37 Trying to git-clone commonqt I get the following Warning: Remote HEAD refers to nonexistent ref, unable to checkout. 16:35:50 So what's this mean? 16:37:42 dreadyman [n=anthony@125.128.68-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:02 It means someone screwed up somewhere in managing the remote repository? 16:39:30 lichtblau! 16:39:50 doing "git clone git://repo.or.cz/commonqt.git --bare; cd commonqt; git checkout origin/smoke1" seems to work 16:40:22 i don't know a shorter way to checkout specific branches 16:41:04 dreadyman: I understand you have an issue with the ESA library? 16:41:47 beach: so my problem is that when i make a initialize-instance :after method i have an error with esa 16:42:02 how about pasting the error? 16:42:09 minion: tell dreadyman about lisppaste 16:42:09 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 16:42:14 ok :) 16:44:04 or better s/--bare/-n/ 16:44:51 dwave [n=ask@084202073105.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 16:44:57 dreadyman: I yes, now I see that we have had discussions in the past. I couldn't remember the nick. Sorry! 16:45:02 why better? I already did it with --bare, will it haunt me in the future? 16:45:19 nop, i'm trying to get the error... 16:45:49 tcr: i don't know, but it will not append .git and my cd will work 16:45:54 dreadyman: take your time. 16:47:47 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:02 tcr: though, -n is better not only because of that 16:48:07 tcr: yes, I need to fix that. Your "clone" actually worked, but didn't know which branch to check out. Typing "git checkout -b smoke2 origin/smoke2" afterwards fixes it. 16:48:24 --bare doesn't create some configs 16:48:34 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:48:40 Alternative, you can check out from http://www.lichteblau.com/git/commonqt.git (listed as the repository url on repo.or.cz, since it's just a mirror). 16:48:44 *tively 16:49:01 hoy 16:49:02 nikodemus, memo from pkhuong: In case you were still wondering about header values for vectors, that's a flag for the GC (weak(?) hash table vector) 16:49:09 hm 16:49:29 hello nikodemus 16:49:37 hi beack 16:49:44 beach, even 16:49:44 I'm planning to rename the smoke2 branch to master anyway, so the issue might fix itself then. (Not sure what repo.or.cz is doing these. If I delete and recreate the mirror, it works until the next time I push something.) 16:50:16 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 16:50:19 pkhuong: aroundp 16:51:40 lichtblau: I'm going to update named-readtables with a portable implementation of readtable iterators, so it should now work on every implementation. 16:51:59 haven't pushed the changes, will do later 16:52:14 tcr: oh, that would be nice. One reader conditional less for allegro. 16:54:39 -!- boyscare1 [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:54:50 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:08 allegroserve isn't open source, right? 16:55:25 it is 16:56:30 stassats: how does it compare to hunchentoot? 16:56:42 nikodemus: t 16:56:42 no idea 16:57:48 konr: it doesn't seem to be used that much these days 16:57:55 but it's basically the same sort of thing 16:58:10 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-31-23.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:58:11 so hunchentoot is probably a better bet, as it's actively maintained and used 16:58:54 -!- dwave [n=ask@084202073105.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 16:59:46 lichtblau: You have access to acl? 17:00:11 tcr: Not right now, but tomorrow, yes. 17:00:12 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-31-23.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:00:33 dreadyman pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79222 17:01:07 beach: this is the error http://paste.lisp.org/display/79222 17:01:11 can you think of anything (eg. in the weak hash table stuff) that would break is the vector header is not aligned on page start? 17:01:22 -!- nyef [n=nyef@24.220.182.229] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:01:28 dreadyman: I see, yes. And what did you do in order to provoke it? 17:01:55 large objects, maybe. Why does it matter? 17:02:10 mm 17:02:23 so we want to init some arg after having make an instance of an object, but when the after method is called we have this error 17:02:23 nyef [n=nyef@24.220.182.229] has joined #lisp 17:02:37 and i don't see the link whith esa 17:03:06 tcr: If you can't clone commonqt git repo, use a snapshot 17:03:16 lichtblau: I'm going to implement an allegro-specific with-readtable-iterator soon. 17:03:22 we tried the same code of the method but called manually ( not with an after method) and it works 17:03:27 because now that i'm actually aligning vector data correctly, a weak hash table vector (or whatever the #x2 in header means) is strangely misallocated 17:03:30 oh. oh! 17:03:30 p_l: you slow, man! problem solved fifteen minutes ago already. 17:03:34 i think i have an idea 17:03:38 dreadyman: There must be something else going on as well. Are you calling the function current-buffer? 17:03:41 tcr: Been shopping :P 17:03:49 no at all :) 17:03:51 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@94-224-246-148.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 17:03:52 possibly object shrinking is the place i should be looking at... 17:04:04 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 17:04:26 do you want me to paste the method ? 17:04:35 apropos: thanks to all who worked on the frame layout. i love being able to backtrace all the way to main() in gdb :) 17:04:51 dreadyman: sure, why not. 17:04:54 ah 17:05:02 oops, wrong channel 17:05:18 dreadyman: the :after method on (setf session-instance) 17:05:26 dreadyman pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79225 17:05:58 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 17:06:02 dreadyman: hmm, no, not that one. 17:06:14 yes! copy_large_object &co seems to be the culprit 17:06:33 dreadyman: what provoked the error seems to be the :after method on (setf session-instance). Do you see that in the backtrace? 17:07:14 yes the problem is that the only after method present in the code is what i paste 17:07:22 nikodemus: You found your bug from last night? 17:08:31 yep 17:09:11 dreadyman: did you define a function called session-instances? 17:09:16 when copy_large_object gets at it, it thinks the object is shrunk since the allocation region is larger than the object, and nips of two words from the end 17:09:36 nikodemus: aren't allocation regions always aligned correctly? 17:10:03 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:10:26 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-148-234.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:42 lichtblau: Ok I pushed my changes. Please report back any problems on Allegro. 17:11:28 pkhuong: if the header is aligned, the data isn't 17:11:38 yes, this is an accessor 17:11:48 dreadyman: OK, so the :after method on initialize-instance indirectly calls (setf session-instances). 17:11:54 oh, right. Forgot about 32 bitness. 17:11:56 on a notes-course 17:12:03 ok 17:12:30 My turn to poke your brains (: I can serialise sections of the heap with appropriate metadata to fix pointers, etc. How do I allocate regions on reception? I can send large objects separately, but for smaller objects, how can I get an allocation region that is large enough? 17:12:36 dreadyman: yes, the push will result in a setf. 17:12:49 yes i see it 17:13:11 but i don't see the link with esa or a current-buffer :( 17:14:19 dreadyman: nor do I. How about inspecting #'(setf apex-model::session-instances) for me. 17:14:25 beach: the error could have no link with esa, but lisp can't see it and display an error about esa 17:14:51 i look at this... 17:15:17 dreadyman: I don't think that is plausible. I think there is some :after method on (setf session-instances) perhaps by mistake. 17:15:40 dreadyman: Oh, wait, I know! 17:15:44 :) 17:16:15 dreadyman: That :after method is the one that is called in order to mark the object as modified. 17:16:29 white-rabbit-obj [n=cpc5@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:17:21 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 17:17:38 dreadyman: check the macro define-save-info. You'll see it there. 17:18:11 sorry,i don' understand, what is the problem with an object marked modified ? 17:18:31 dreadyman: it calls (current-buffer), and (current-buffer) is an ESA function that calls (esa-current-buffer *esa-instance*) 17:18:57 ah ok, the after methos is in model.lisp 17:19:09 so here we can't see esa functions 17:19:38 is it right ? 17:19:48 dreadyman: whenever you include a slot in the save-info, it also defines an :after method on the (setf mumble) method that marks the objects as needing to be saved. 17:19:55 pkhuong: gc_find_freeish_pages? i'm not 100% certain i understand what you are after 17:20:35 or gc_alloc_new_region? 17:20:51 ok, i'm thinking about that 17:21:25 dreadyman: Looking at the code, I am surprised other things have worked in the past, because *esa-instance* needs to be bound for this to work. 17:22:31 dreadyman: have you recently upgraded McCLIM or something? 17:22:46 hm, progress. same gc invariant breaks, but with different numbers... 17:23:10 no, i didn't, but i think informatic has something of mysterious and magic... 17:24:03 dreadyman: OK, we need to figure out where to bind *esa-instance* to the application-frame that you are using. 17:24:06 beach: so the problem could come from define-save-info ? 17:24:53 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-150-254.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:55 I'm always surprised that when I take a totally different implementation, and whole lots of stuff with it that it works. 17:25:01 and compile 17:25:12 I pretty much develop on SBCL only 17:25:36 dreadyman: Not really, I mean that has worked in the past. But sort of, in that define-save-info defines the :after method that calls (current-buffer) and that call fails. 17:25:40 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:42 the miracle of outwards portability 17:26:39 beach: ok i begin to see the problem but how to resolve it? 17:26:42 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 17:27:04 beach: have you an idea ? 17:27:13 dreadyman: yes, hold on.l 17:27:17 s/l// 17:27:22 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:27:25 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 17:27:35 nikodemus: alloc_new_region sounds right. Do I only have to zero out an allocation region struct to initialise it? 17:27:42 Try the following: in gui.lisp, the apex-common function, there is a (let ((frame (make-application-frame...))) 17:27:48 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-148-234.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:27:51 not sure 17:28:14 gc_set_region_empty, good. 17:28:19 Between it and the (flet ((run ()..., stick a (let ((*esa-instance* frame)) and then balance the parentheses. 17:29:21 there's stuff that relates to the region objects that i'm not too clear on 17:29:32 ok i try... 17:29:44 Legate [n=Null@dslb-088-078-219-187.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:50 hey, yet another exciting *different* error... 17:30:49 dreadyman: I am guessing this will give an error similar to the previous one, but instead of an argument list of (NIL), there should be an apex buffer there. 17:31:47 dreadyman: So then you will need to duplicate the method on frame-current-buffer in gui.lisp, and call the copy esa-current-buffer instead. 17:32:08 I just started with Lisp, I set up emacs, sbcl and slime, however, when I run (format t "hello, world") the NIL is on the same line as the "hello, world". Is that a problem? 17:32:42 Legate: try (format t "hello world~%") 17:32:53 ravster [n=user@67.204.25.91] has joined #lisp 17:33:17 i tried to add what you said, but i have the same error, i paste you what did... 17:33:39 Hey all. Is there some sort of startup file (rc) for sbcl? I'm trying to install clx and I'm supposed to put two lisp commands in a "rc file" 17:33:42 Legate: One is the output, the other is the return value of FORMAT 17:33:49 ravster: .sbclrc 17:34:01 beach: alright, thank you 17:34:14 Ok, that did the trick, beach. Thanks. But it's ok that I need to do that? Because in Practical Common Lisp the NIL is on a line of its own without "~%". 17:34:36 -!- vy [n=user@88.229.113.20] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:34:41 dreadyman pasted "toto" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79230 17:34:53 beach: is that correct ? 17:35:34 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:35:43 dreadyman: No, the flet should be in the body of the new let 17:35:51 ah ok 17:36:27 Legate: it's ok, what does REPL is implementation dependant 17:36:38 Legate: May be considered a bug in the version of Slime you use. 17:36:42 Ok, thanks stassats. 17:36:42 Legate: that's just a detail of the environment you are using -- some environments might ensure a fresh line before printing the return value, in which case they end up on different lines, some might not 17:37:01 Thanks everyone. 17:37:26 There are many subtle inconveniences in the current HEAD version of Slime.. 17:37:40 beach: we tried it but we have the same error anyway 17:37:53 is it time for timeboxed slime releases? :P 17:38:10 is it important if we do what we want without an after method ? 17:39:20 nikodemus: The SBCL way of doing it is admirable, sure! 17:39:31 dreadyman: Are you sure it's the same error? It should be different in the part where it says "when called with arguments (NIL)" 17:39:46 (Eh, I hope that didn't come across as ironic because it's mean honstly) 17:39:59 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:40:00 typo alarm! 17:40:03 i paste what i didi... 17:40:53 dreadyman: The problem is not the :after method. 17:40:54 dreadyman pasted "titi" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79233 17:41:25 pabroke [n=pabroke@229.Red-83-41-253.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:26 dreadyman: that looks right (except for indentation). what is the new error message. 17:41:29 an the error is exactly the same : There is no applicable method for the generic function 17:41:29 # 17:41:29 when called with arguments 17:41:29 (NIL). 17:41:37 (sorry) for the paste) 17:42:00 do i did something wrong ? 17:42:56 i think the problem is in the difference between an after method an a normal method 17:43:06 no, I don't think so. 17:43:12 cause with a normal methos the problem don't happen 17:43:17 The problem is that *esa-instance* is not bound, but it should be. 17:43:43 is my paste about the apex-common good ? 17:43:50 tcr: one thing i currently miss in slime is that it's hard to keep on top of the new stuff 17:43:51 I think so. 17:44:07 i try to quit all and to recompil... 17:44:09 dreadyman: How about making a tar.gz file of all you have right now, and mailing it to me. 17:44:22 ChangeLog has so many implementation details that one can't really just glance at it to see if there's anything interesting since last update 17:44:26 -!- pabroke [n=pabroke@229.Red-83-41-253.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 17:44:45 dreadyman: my dinner is burning, so I need to go take care of it. But I'll try to debug this tomorrow. 17:44:58 mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:08 -!- mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:45:13 ok, i send it to you 17:45:23 thanks :) 17:45:40 i recompiled an i have the same error ... :( 17:45:40 dreadyman: Sorry I couldn't fix it right now. 17:45:51 *TDT* already is beginning to feel nervous about hsi presentation in a week 17:46:05 i i leave you :) see you and good evening 17:47:23 pkhuong: your malloc-unboxed branch. is the motivation immobile unboxed vectors, or what? 17:47:53 nikodemus: I do agree. 17:50:25 -!- ravster [n=user@67.204.25.91] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:51:11 nikodemus: right. Without having to play with --dynamic-space-size. 17:51:39 I don't think that experiment got anywhere. 17:52:23 -!- dreadyman [n=anthony@125.128.68-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:52:52 WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:16 maybe i need more tea. i keep mixing up bytes and words, not to mention & and &&... 17:53:48 Hello, is anyone using ECL with Slime? I'm getting an error: "There is no package with the name CLC." 17:54:08 WarWeasle: don't use debian packages. 17:54:11 WarWeasle: That sounds like a problem introduced by your Linux distribution 17:54:16 Also, I built my own ECL with threads. 17:55:04 On a related note I just tried ECL with Slime and I'm disappointed by its current slime integration. Backtraces are useless. 17:55:27 WarWeasle: Then you probably use Debian's Slime package 17:55:42 tcr: good thing you're a slime hacker! 17:55:58 make sure to remove it (including cl-swank) before getting Slime from CVS 17:56:12 tcr: Thanks! I'm trying it now. 17:56:13 and remember to remove it with --purge 17:56:17 ** I couldn't get ecl running in clbuild because it couldn't open /dev/null ? (sounded strange to me) 17:56:21 ECL is a great thing to have on windows :) 17:56:27 it used to leave hostile bits lying around otherwise 17:57:05 -!- white-rabbit-obj [n=cpc5@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:57:24 Now we just need a usable SBCL on Windows... 17:57:52 and a usable Windows.. 17:58:00 nyef: (I can't help myself) How could you have something usable when the OS isn't. 17:58:21 WarWeasle: How can you have reliable behavior implemented on unreliable hardware? 17:58:37 Could be that gmane is the suckyness today? 17:59:46 last reliable system was Analytic Engine, it was reliably unfinished ;-) 18:00:48 nyef: I do all my processing on a pure Turning machine running DreamOS. 18:01:57 a turning machine, eh? A washer/dryer unit? 18:02:16 roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:35 nyef, just like reliable stream transport on an unreliable packet routing system! 18:03:04 yay, *now* it builds 18:03:18 lol! 18:04:24 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-42-98.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:05:11 anryx [n=anryx@213.210.175.188.adsl.nextra.cz] has joined #lisp 18:06:06 brb, must restart emacs... 18:06:13 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:06:38 Is there a way (MOP or otherwise) to get a list of all methods that apply to a given class? 18:07:11 No, I'm not doing this for any actual code-related reason; documentation generation system. 18:07:22 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 18:07:42 I imagine that you could do it with the MOP. 18:07:53 You'd think, but it certainly wasn't obvious to me how. 18:07:58 But I'm not entirely certain how, as I'm not very well versed in MOPpery. 18:08:09 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 18:08:09 *nod* 18:08:19 Nor I. Futzing with someone else's code, as usual. 18:08:26 Well, start with the important bit. Given a generic-function, can you determine what classes its methods are specialized on? 18:08:52 Or maybe, given a method, can you determine how it is specialized? 18:09:07 Because given a generic function, you can determine its methods. 18:09:07 specializer-direct-methods 18:09:17 Given a function, you can determine if it is a generic function. 18:09:26 Given a symbol you can determine what, if any, function it has. 18:09:38 And you can go over all interned symbols in the system fairly easily. 18:09:44 doesn't give you all _applicable_ methods, though 18:11:12 so if FOO is a superclass of BAR, and M1 is specialized on FOO, (specializer-direct-methods (find-class 'bar)) doesn't tell you about M1 18:11:23 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-124-153.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:11:34 nikodemus: I think that's OK. 18:11:40 Didn't know you could use it like that; thansk! 18:14:09 Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@193.216.225.68] has joined #lisp 18:14:39 white-rabbit-obj [n=cpc5@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:15:04 rlpowell: gary kings moptilities contains a map-methods, that works on direct methods only too, though 18:16:12 elias` [n=me@resnet-nat-001.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:16:15 -!- _CitizenKane_ [n=quassel@edit57.daily.umn.edu] has left #lisp 18:17:57 -!- roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 18:19:51 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 18:20:50 -!- beach` is now known as beach 18:21:08 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.252.50] has joined #lisp 18:22:45 nikodemus pasted "victory!" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79242 18:23:50 now to make it pretty 18:25:22 anyone know how to write the ~ char in aquamacs? on my system, aquamacs firmly believes this is a shortcut 18:25:48 good stuff! 18:25:54 WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:39 Dynetrekk: this is with slime, isn't it? 18:26:49 sykopomp: hm, yep, it is 18:26:53 if it's what I think it is, update your slime 18:27:01 it's a bug that popped up when people were rebinding stuff 18:27:04 sykopomp: well, I'm editing the file in a window, anyway 18:27:14 sykopomp: I did cvs update 10 min ago 18:27:15 tcr: Oh, schweet. Yeah, direct methods is fine. 18:27:17 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.68.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:27:18 huh 18:27:29 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.68.107] has joined #lisp 18:27:39 mega1 [n=mega@53d82dd8.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 18:27:43 maybe something didn't update, or it popped up again :( 18:28:22 Did slime change recently? I'm only getting an inferior lisp window. 18:28:26 sykopomp: who knows. annoying anyways. 18:29:57 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has left #lisp 18:30:14 <_3b> WarWeasle: add slime-repl or slime-fancy to the slime-setup call in .emacs 18:30:27 WarWeasle: oh, I get that. I'm pissed over it. it used to show up as a small window in the bottom of the editor 18:30:55 Dynetrekk: slime-repl and slime-fancy :P 18:31:02 sykopomp: I saw it :) 18:31:36 sykopomp: how, exactly? 18:31:44 Ok, trying it... 18:32:15 (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf slime-presentations slime-sbcl-exts slime-tramp)) 18:32:15 18:32:25 put that in .emacs 18:32:50 sykopomp: ah, add as a symbol or something. (the whole lisp experience is rather new for me...) 18:32:59 slime-fancy includes slime-presentations! 18:33:03 sykopomp: any particular reason to use SBCL? 18:33:20 Dynetrekk: it's fast, I'm used to it, and I love sb-sprof 18:33:27 sb-prof? 18:33:36 sprof 18:33:45 sykopomp: again, sprof? 18:33:51 sorry, I don't know that. 18:33:54 profiler 18:33:56 sbcl's statistical profiler 18:33:59 it's amazing 18:33:59 ah right 18:34:20 it is? 18:34:28 hm. a mask is something you typically AND 18:34:30 I think so, it's saved my butt a few times. 18:34:31 in what way is it amazing, in particilar? 18:34:34 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@94-224-246-148.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 18:34:37 what do you call something you OR? 18:35:08 Dynetrekk: it dumps out a huge report of what gets called and how, so you can see where your bottlenecks are really easily. 18:35:32 sykopomp: like any profiler, essentially? 18:35:44 Dynetrekk: yes :) 18:35:45 nikodemus: a mark? ;) 18:35:58 but neither ccl nor clisp include a similar profiler 18:36:00 hence my preference 18:36:14 sykopomp: indeed. and, I also heard sbcl is fast. 18:36:20 the 8 i OR in to misalign the header 18:36:26 I like fast. 18:36:32 best name i have so far is vector-alignment-magic 18:36:47 which is not very good... 18:37:02 i like fast compilation 18:37:31 sykopomp: btw, now m-x slime opens inferior-lisp and slime-repl clisp 18:37:47 nikodemus: You might try calculating the 8 as a function of slot offsets? 18:37:49 that's how it should be 18:37:50 stassats: I like ccl, too, so I usually try to get what I write to be compatible. 18:37:56 sykopomp: Thanks, Mr. sykopomp, you rock. 18:38:01 (Since that's what you did with the padding in the first place.) 18:38:29 nyef: that's how i define it 18:38:37 Fair enough. 18:38:50 sykopomp: i made ccl the default implementation in slime, but i usually run sbcl and ccl simultaneously 18:39:37 stassats: do you just slime-connect? 18:39:40 On a different note, what's you're feeling on this SBCL build hack? 18:39:44 minion: Paste 79210? 18:39:44 Paste number 79210: "An SBCL build-system hack" by nyef in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/79210 18:39:50 I was doing that for a bit, and it got pretty confusing :\ 18:39:55 s/you're/your/ 18:40:21 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:41:05 sykopomp: no, i just use slime to start it up 18:41:26 huh 18:41:32 what's it for? 18:41:43 huh? how do you start two different lisps with just M-x slime? 18:42:24 SacreBleu_ [n=user@122.162.244.229] has joined #lisp 18:42:35 sykopomp: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Multiple-Lisps.html#Multiple-Lisps 18:43:11 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:43:30 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-73-207.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:43:35 (though i just have a shortcut M-x sbcl, M-x clisp, etc. for each implementation) 18:43:38 WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:46 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-42-98.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:43:52 -!- beach` is now known as beach 18:45:09 stassats: thanks! 18:45:52 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 18:46:29 Maybe someone can help me with this as well, how can I capture a parser error in ECL? Such as (my-safe-eval '(print ...)) 18:46:44 The dots are literal. 18:47:14 (handler-case (eval (read-from-string "(print ...)")) (error (error) error)) 18:47:41 mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:48:03 stassats: wow, thanks. 18:48:18 uhm, how do I check if read-line has read the last line? 18:49:34 (read-line stream nil) will return nil on the EOF 18:50:14 stassats: ah, sounds good. 18:50:45 nyef: the patch doesn't look bad, but i'm not sure what's the benefit. presumably there is a point in being able to find the fasls, but i've never wanted that so i don't quite get it 18:50:56 dwave [n=ask@084202073105.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 18:51:06 It's more to keep the fasls out of the source tree. 18:51:21 Dynetrekk: or you can use LISTEN 18:51:33 which tells if there is any input left 18:51:43 Since the host and xc fasls aren't there, why should the target fasls be there? 18:51:55 Anyway, I'm not planning on committing it at this point. 18:52:48 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B857.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:19 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit ["omghaahhahaohwow"] 18:53:24 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 18:53:59 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:54:58 oh, right 18:55:18 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 18:55:22 One thing I'm thinking about trying is getting rid of symlinks during the build process. 18:55:37 that's nice and hygienic 18:55:44 But that's more involved, especially if I want to avoid using LPNs for it. 18:59:59 Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-148-234.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:48 stassats: http://omploader.org/vMWwxbA okay, I admit this seems like it could get really confusing really fast :) 19:00:58 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-209-212.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:03 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:31 -!- Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@193.216.225.68] has quit [] 19:04:10 -!- mega1 [n=mega@53d82dd8.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:06:09 cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 19:07:19 -!- legumbre` is now known as legumbre 19:09:12 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@77.124.71.204] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:10:21 VicFedex [n=VFx@wikimedia/vic-fede] has joined #lisp 19:10:57 -!- VicFedex [n=VFx@wikimedia/vic-fede] has left #lisp 19:12:35 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 19:15:29 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@student166-252.hampshire.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:16:05 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:23 -!- SacreBleu_ [n=user@122.162.244.229] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:16:50 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 19:17:09 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.244.229] has joined #lisp 19:17:23 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-148-234.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:19:42 Hunh. There are no defined functions in CL that begin with #\j. 19:19:43 xan-afk_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:20:48 Does pl-ppcre work with ECL? 19:21:06 sure 19:21:31 I must be doing something wrong... 19:22:46 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:22:57 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 19:23:27 Duplicate stem? WTF? 19:24:00 karnath [n=karnath@ip92-101-207-115.onego.ru] has joined #lisp 19:26:22 *nyef* weakens the failing test to allow the case he needs. 19:31:16 luis`: You here? 19:31:20 -!- xan-afk [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:32:37 jfactor [n=jfactor@student167-76.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 19:36:31 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:38:04 nyef: j and x 19:40:05 -!- karnath [n=karnath@ip92-101-207-115.onego.ru] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:40:08 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.244.229] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:40:19 that is, no defined symbols 19:40:54 jbmigel [n=jbm@S010600179a220e57.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:44 At least not in the CL package. 19:44:54 It's not as easy to check for defined keywords. 19:46:50 parse-integer :junk-allowed t 19:46:52 I have another ECL Slime issue, my output is going to the *inferior lisp* window and not my repl. 19:47:43 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:47:44 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:47:47 right that's a slime bug 19:47:53 you have to load slime-repl or slime-fancy to get the repl. 19:47:53 and apparently, no X, if not taking :x3j13 feature into account 19:48:06 ziarkaen [n=ziarkaen@88-108-44-190.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 19:48:23 -!- tcr [n=tcr@138.246.7.145] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:48:49 Ok...so long as it's working correctly. It doesn't matter I just have to look for it. 19:51:50 nyef annotated #79210 "src/compiler/assembly/ must die" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79210#1 19:55:26 This one I am more likely to commit. 19:57:13 -!- HG` [n=wells@91.108.74.20] has quit [Client Quit] 19:57:25 hmm, i'm now toying with properties of symbols, instead of watching a movie 19:57:57 which movie 19:58:10 haven't decided yet 19:58:55 ejs [n=eugen@141-159-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:15 HG` [n=wells@91.108.74.20] has joined #lisp 20:00:59 Hrm. Looks like that breaks slam. 20:01:56 hooray for less symlinks 20:02:20 I think I have an angle on all of the lisp-side symlinks. Doesn't help for src/runtime, though. 20:02:42 -!- gio123 [n=gio123@host-193-186-177-164.heimbau.uni-linz.ac.at] has left #lisp 20:03:26 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 20:03:34 how about just copying everything to a build/ subdirectory, and using copies instead of symlinks? 20:03:39 why the heck is clisp stopping running when it is receiving some sigsegv error ? 20:03:48 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.244.229] has joined #lisp 20:03:57 are you running it under gdb_ 20:03:57 whereas sbcl just tells me that an error occured 20:04:06 -!- ejs [n=eugen@141-159-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:04:35 oh, _stopping_ 20:04:49 sepult: did you build it with libsigsegv? 20:05:14 -!- HG` [n=wells@91.108.74.20] has quit [Client Quit] 20:05:16 stassats: i installed the debian one, and libsigsegv is installed too 20:05:27 I'd rather not have an extra copy of the source tree or parts thereof. Leads to confusion when you're hacking. 20:08:20 stassats: it happens when i run (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op 'clsql) then (clsql:connect '("genome-mysql.cse.ucsc.edu" "" "genome" "") :database-type :mysql)), just after it connects to the database it gets a segfault 20:08:50 stassats: not with cmucl or sbcl though 20:11:31 use cmucl or sbcl then 20:12:26 stassats: ok, i'll install all the clisps again and try it again, but not a third time 20:13:00 sepult: i'm sure clisp developers would appreciate a bug report 20:13:09 clisps? 20:13:43 nikodemus: i think they have the bug reports already on that, i see now serious bugs on clisp with bug reporter 20:14:02 ok 20:14:05 i'll not use it 20:14:08 btw, debian has old clisp, old libraries, etc. etc. 20:14:12 bah 20:14:21 i could install the newer ones 20:14:39 but that keeps me going to unstable or testing branches of debian 20:14:40 any non-trivial compiler & runtime with actual users is going to have a large number of open bugs 20:15:41 debian experimental has the same clisp version as in stable 20:16:11 Oh, I remember what I wanted to talk about. 20:16:27 -!- deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:16:37 nikodemus: I -think- I fixed that bug about the x86 disassembler and operand-size prefix. 20:16:47 deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:16:50 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 20:17:19 locally, or did you commit? 20:17:24 Committed. 20:17:43 I think you sent me an email about the commit, right about when my email system collapsed under the spam load. 20:17:50 for both signed and unsigned? 20:18:16 Maybe not, then. 20:18:24 I know I got the prefix byte recognized, though. 20:18:48 I'll run a few tests and see what I come up with. 20:18:54 oh, sorry 20:19:08 Mistaking it for the alien integer type bug? 20:19:19 i was talking about the operand size in alien -- somehow i missed the dissassembler bit :) 20:20:33 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 20:20:44 chitech [n=khuongdp@0x573a1ea0.svgnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:21:52 -!- chitech [n=khuongdp@0x573a1ea0.svgnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 20:22:04 chitech [n=khuongdp@0x573a1ea0.svgnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:22:14 -!- chitech [n=khuongdp@0x573a1ea0.svgnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 20:23:07 ... It seems like some of the less-used tags no longer show up in the sidebar in the tracker. 20:23:30 blech 20:25:16 better? 20:25:27 i made all the tags we had "official" 20:25:59 HG` [n=wells@91.108.74.20] has joined #lisp 20:26:07 and the tags are sorted by number of uses. yuck 20:26:21 I kindof like it sorted by number of uses, though. 20:26:47 It sortof says "here's an area that you can concentrate on to do the most good". 20:26:53 true 20:27:11 but makes it hard to look for related bugs: os-this and os-that next to each other, etc 20:29:00 Demonstrates a long tail effect, though. Some of those tags are only used once... And in a couple cases are useless anyway (ldb and cwd, for example). 20:29:21 And WTF is with separate alien and sb-alien tags? 20:30:04 Umm... GC-unsafe SB-ALIEN string deporting? Since when? 20:30:29 There's a :deport-pin-p method on them, isn't there? 20:33:59 Design question for any lisp/web developers. I'm creating a mod_ecl and should I output the result of a file or collect stdout? Or both, but if so, how? 20:35:05 The default behavior is to just run the file given. 20:36:04 http://git.boinkor.net/gitweb/sbcl.git?a=commit;f=src/code/host-c-call.lisp;h=6fa968aaa8051da23cc3153a1c0e67addbea85f6 vs. https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/308949 20:38:26 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:39:12 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-84-182.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 20:42:58 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 20:43:57 -!- divinebovine [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:50:35 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:50:47 hm. i wonder if i replicated that or something else 20:51:30 quite possibly something else 20:51:41 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:51:54 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@193.52.24.125] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:52:21 sepult: Ditch debian lisp packages and go with clbuild :) 20:52:37 nyef: but i'm pretty sure that the new test-case at the end is what made call it confirmed again 20:52:46 Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483E52B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:07 probably the bug it exposes is something different again 20:54:11 and the original bug is still definitely there for cheney 20:54:22 not that many people care about cheney... 20:54:23 Yes, cheney is likely still screwed because it can't pin. 20:54:31 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-61.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:54:57 do you have a threaded linux build handy? 20:55:01 And even without callbacks there are still a few ways to end up back in lisp from alien code, thus requiring a GC. 20:55:03 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 20:55:11 Not a recent one, I'm afraid. 20:57:53 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:23 Trying it on 1.0.11, threaded. 20:58:40 this is interesting 20:58:55 i can replicate the symptoms on OS X, but... 20:59:08 ... OS X is known to have threading issues anyways. 20:59:30 if i just let it run, hit ^C, continue or abort, repeat, everything is fine 20:59:42 Yeah, just interrupted it multiple times on an x86-64 linux and it just takes it. No memory faults... 21:00:36 Interrupt, redefine TEST, and continue, no problem... 21:00:45 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:48 (Not that I expected a problem, as it would be using the old definition of TEST still anyway.) 21:00:49 but if i type junk -- a symbol or a number -- before interrupting, i get a memory fault! 21:01:07 bizarre 21:01:25 divinebovine [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:29 Nothing like that here. 21:01:45 Tried (), tried 32, tried 32 without a carriage return... 21:01:58 This is basically stable on x86-64. 21:02:04 i typed a fairly long number something like 123987129837 here 21:02:13 either x86 or OS X issue, then 21:02:29 23480952823894783277 didn't break it either. 21:02:39 ...and given how bizarre the symptom is, i'm willing to bet os x 21:03:08 Well, I can build an x86 version to run on an x86-64 host... 21:03:46 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 21:04:34 Building now, if the build works we'll see what happens when it's done. 21:05:28 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 21:07:07 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@student167-76.hampshire.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:07:17 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B857.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:07:36 I build SBCL from CVS last friday and it is about the most painless upload and and build I ever had. And It seems completely stable. 21:08:37 -!- dwave [n=ask@084202073105.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 21:08:38 younder: Lucky you. I tried to build SBCL from CVS last friday and it took my and _3b much of Saturday to figure out what went wrong. 21:09:41 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Client Quit] 21:11:45 Come to think of it it was thursady.. 21:12:17 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-84-182.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:12:43 I used the clbuild I was recomended. 21:12:58 Yeah, 1.0.27.31 was the problem commit, but it only affected some people. 21:13:41 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 21:13:56 Now my problem is ro get Axiom to work!... 21:14:15 again 21:14:21 ok, i'm out. good night 21:14:25 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:14:43 This litterate programming wrecks havoc with CVS.. 21:16:46 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@80.122.51.198] has quit [] 21:17:09 Oops. Just built a unithread SBCL, not a threaded SBCL. :-/ 21:17:44 -!- wedgeV_ [n=wedge@80.122.51.198] has quit [] 21:23:24 -!- xan-afk_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:23:36 -!- akcom [i=akcom@rrcs-67-79-132-132.se.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:27:14 When you delete it messes everuthing up. When I woked for Opera we had hundreds of #ifdef 0's in the code and had to run a Perl script to remove them. At ech stable relese we would ask all to first coomit and then coomit the lot. Then we would freeze the CVS source, apply the script, and then reload from CVS. 21:29:42 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 21:30:34 When you delete it messes everything up. When I worked for Opera we had hundreds of #ifdef 0's in the code and had to run a Perl script to remove them. At each stable release we would ask all to comitt the lot. Then we would freeze the CVS source, apply the script, and then reload from CVS. 21:31:44 dys [n=andreas@p5B31720E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:50 -!- elurin [n=user@81.213.201.55] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:32:15 -!- cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:32:29 wedgeV [n=wedge@80.122.51.198] has joined #lisp 21:32:30 Sorry for the truly atrocious spelling in the original post. 21:32:47 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@80.122.51.198] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:37:32 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:28 Lisper's can do the same with #| and |#'s 21:39:30 <_3b> younder: but not the grammar, or spelling in the second? 21:39:48 <_3b> (or the pointless repetition for that matter) 21:39:49 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250043.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:41:50 c|mell [n=cmell@x250016.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 21:42:53 Now that you mention it editing abillity and spell checking in the IRC reply buffer would be usefull. 21:42:59 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-153-103.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:08 <_3b> i'd have assumed all clients allow editing at least, shouldn't be too hard to find one with a spell checker too 21:44:21 -!- ziarkaen [n=ziarkaen@88-108-44-190.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:45:34 I'm testing my own Lisp client at the moment.. Never tested it under Linux before. Clearly it needs more work! 21:45:39 elurin [n=user@81.213.201.55] has joined #lisp 21:47:18 droogie [n=user@88.238.42.130] has joined #lisp 21:48:54 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-14.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:50:50 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-209-212.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:50:56 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:51:23 omigod, whiting and anchovy on rocket and lemon, i dont know why im striving with programming im more of a chef :D everyone whose slime repl dropped to debugger is invited to my delicious dinner :D 21:51:25 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.244.229] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:51:38 not dinner though, its 1 am here 21:51:42 -!- Legate [n=Null@dslb-088-078-219-187.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:52:03 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 21:53:33 And just who the f*** are you? 21:53:37 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:54:11 ignore younder; he's the local idiot. 21:55:10 jfactor [n=jfactor@student165-171.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 21:55:21 we all are, or we would all program Java or shudder Perl 21:55:23 Sounds good, except for the fish. 21:56:25 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:57:16 My moral is if you can endure Kenny Tliton's humor then you can endure mine. 21:58:17 nyef: looks good, too :) except that the crumbs bread around the fish make it look a bit, well.. dead 21:58:37 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-56.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:59:54 -!- rolly1975 [n=rory@5ac959a9.bb.sky.com] has quit ["The computer fell asleep"] 22:00:00 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-80-121.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 22:00:05 anyway, is anyone here familiar to GC problems? 22:00:10 I work with open souce projects Axiom and ACL2.. And have recently switched to Linux (Ubuntu) and SBCL 22:00:25 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-150-226.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:01 i mean GC errors, i was trying to run Mcclim on sbcl via Xming, but it dropped to ldb several times, not while compiling mcclim, but loading mcclim examples. 22:03:59 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:05:09 its not that important tho, obviously it wasnt gonna be a very efficient framework 22:05:12 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 22:06:30 it's really hard to read you without apostrophes 22:07:39 oh sorry, you're right 22:08:27 minion: thwap at droogie 22:08:27 droogie: direct your attention towards thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 22:09:34 *younder* directs attention twoards paste.lisp.org 22:12:40 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:14:40 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-239-4.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:44 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.217.125] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:15:39 Not dying on x86 either. 22:16:57 -!- HG` [n=wells@91.108.74.20] has quit [Client Quit] 22:17:52 minion: memo for nikodemus: I tried that threaded string deporting test on an x86 build and the only wierdness involved when it responded to SIGINT, which can almost be chalked up to the TTY line discipline. Looks like it's limited to cheneygc and platforms with broken threads. 22:17:52 Remembered. I'll tell nikodemus when he/she/it next speaks. 22:24:43 mogunus [n=user@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 22:24:46 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:25:16 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-19.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 22:26:03 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-148-234.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:26:57 How would one call the property of a form to remain as an atom, even after macroexpansion? 22:27:54 really-atom-p, eval-time-atom-p, ... 22:28:13 <_3b> not-symbol-macro-p ? 22:28:55 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6EA12.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:40 Er, I wasn't explicit enough, conses should be excluded as well. 22:30:18 <_3b> and-atom-not-symbol-macro-p ? :) 22:31:24 "if you can't find a sane name for your function, then your function is doing something wrong" 22:32:25 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:33:12 <_3b> yeah, i'd probably just make symbol-macro-p and do the rest with existing CL stuff 22:33:32 <_3b> (assuming there isn't one i missed already) 22:33:48 (defun symbol-macro-p (symbol) (eq symbol (macroexpand-1 symbol))) ? 22:34:07 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:34:09 <_3b> nyef: probably add in the env stuff to catch symbol-macrolet, but yeah 22:34:21 CLHS says that max and min are free to return floats even if all their arguments are non-floats. Does any CL implementation actually exploit this freedom? 22:34:34 (At least I think it says that.) 22:34:35 deepfire: are you actually looking for the concept 'self-evaluating'? 22:35:08 <_3b> jcowan: i read it as saying it can return float if any arg is a float 22:35:12 jcowan: I disagree with your interpretation. 22:35:15 *kpreid* studies contagion 22:36:03 Yes. The result may be a float if one of the arguments is a float, per 12.1.4.1 22:36:30 kpreid, I'd like variables to be factored in as well.. 22:36:43 What it does say is that the result may be a float *even if the largest input is not a float*. 22:37:07 _3b: At the point where you add in the env stuff it has to be a macro. 22:37:20 That is, all the inputs are mingled wrt the contagion rules -- which might yield floats. 22:37:26 nyef, symbol macros can expand to other symbol-macros, so I'd say (not (nth-value 1 (macroexpand-1 symbol))).. 22:37:41 deepfire: Any symbol-macro that expands to itself is an infinite loop anyway. 22:37:47 oops, yes 22:39:51 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Bailing out"] 22:39:52 <_3b> if you redefined it while it was looping, would it stop? 22:40:18 <_3b> though i gues sit would probably kill the stack before you got a chance :) 22:41:10 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.252.50] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:41:16 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-56.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 22:41:16 It probably wouldn't kill the stack. I know I'd use an iterative structure instead of a recursive one, and even a recursive structure could tail-call. 22:42:10 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-56.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 22:43:51 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:47 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 22:48:56 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 22:49:52 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:28 -!- white-rabbit-obj [n=cpc5@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:51:00 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 22:54:30 is it possible to specialize keyword parameters in DEFMETHOD? if so, what would the syntax be? 22:55:28 hbock: it is not 22:55:48 the only things you can specialize in a generic function are the fixed arguments 22:55:58 non-optional, non-rest 22:56:35 okay, thanks. 22:56:44 -!- anryx [n=anryx@213.210.175.188.adsl.nextra.cz] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:58:51 Only in PLOT. 23:03:12 -!- mogunus [n=user@173.9.7.10] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:03:49 mogunus [n=user@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 23:04:06 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-8720.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:08:04 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:08:53 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 23:09:03 gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-30.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 23:09:35 -!- mogunus [n=user@173.9.7.10] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:10:05 mogunus [n=user@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 23:11:00 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@80.135.200.36] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:11:59 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:07 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-223.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:12:13 -!- gemelen_ is now known as gemelen 23:14:18 -!- droogie [n=user@88.238.42.130] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:14:44 droogie [n=user@88.238.42.130] has joined #lisp 23:14:49 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 23:15:03 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6EA12.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 23:15:16 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250016.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit ["Instain to the do way"] 23:16:29 -!- deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:16:56 deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:17:50 -!- jewel [n=jewel@41.242.183.106] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:18:16 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:18:56 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.141.81] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:29:17 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.217.125] has joined #lisp 23:30:51 is there a wxwidgets interface for cl? 23:30:57 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483E52B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:31:12 droogie: yes 23:31:13 http://www.wxcl-project.org/language/en/ 23:31:29 is there a search button on cliki? 23:33:39 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-56.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 23:33:57 wxcl afaik isn't maintained anymore 23:34:56 yes i see that last packages are from 2006 23:35:33 stassats: Yes, probably in the page header area. 23:36:02 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 23:38:25 p_l: there is also wxGlade but it doesn't look similar. 23:38:39 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 23:41:33 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:41:36 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:04 -!- droogie [n=user@88.238.42.130] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:46:08 -!- nyef [n=nyef@24.220.182.229] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:46:21 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 23:51:23 hmm... as for various appearing LispM resurrection talks - what about building an Ivory-compatible machine out of FPGAs, in fact with several of them, together with LPARs and some supervisor controller? 23:51:59 Put them into standard form factor like 2U server, take them to a meeting, connect to network, and people can log into "private" Genera instances :D 23:58:18 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-56.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 23:58:45 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp