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has quit [] 02:29:52 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:56 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:57:31 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-137-67.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:02:35 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 03:05:08 -!- haimez [n=haimez@c-76-104-23-233.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:07:41 haimez [n=haimez@c-76-104-23-233.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:00 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-192-51.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:08 qsun [n=user@nat-1228.mp.usyd.edu.au] has joined #lisp 03:24:14 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 03:26:56 -!- qsun [n=user@nat-1228.mp.usyd.edu.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:27:57 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@c-68-84-2-127.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:28:21 since lisp and AI seem to go together: are transposition tables absolutely essential for negascout to work efficiently? 03:28:40 and if so, where can I go to find some details on how to set them up 03:39:47 -!- envi^laptop [n=envi@219.241.46.188] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:40:51 cgrtt-burn [n=user@88.238.41.136] has joined #lisp 03:41:12 poet [n=tsally2@fermat.cse.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 03:41:31 is there a way to evaluate a lisp expression when editing a file? 03:42:12 A tutorial I'm reading says that the author uses C-c C-c, but in my emacs thats not bound to anything 03:42:40 do you have slime? that's it's job. 03:42:48 yeah I have slime installed and running 03:42:53 its probably probably your slime config 03:43:13 i didn't mean double probably :) 03:43:14 sorry 03:43:24 :-p 03:43:46 I mean I checked out the most recent CVS version and didn't change anything, I assume slime config is in that directory, Ill check 03:44:01 i think its not version 03:44:29 C - c C - c works on a file that uses slime mode 03:44:41 poet: what extension did you give your file? 03:44:49 .lisp 03:45:35 so try M - x slime-mode while the cursor is on the window in which the file is open 03:45:41 then try c-c c-c 03:46:01 wow sweet 03:46:09 did it work? 03:46:20 yeah :) 03:46:29 poet: nice :) 03:46:41 so now I must add some sort of trigger to my .emacs file to make it automatically start slime mode for .lisp 03:46:55 but it should be able to automaticly open the .lisp files in slime mode 03:47:23 poet: yes i was about to tell that :D 03:47:30 I'm using Allegro CL, which has a decent ammount of slime config in the .emacs. Maybe I messed something up with that 03:48:08 hmm, i think i might be about slime-setup configuration 03:48:22 let me look at my own .emacs file 03:48:25 ok 03:49:21 (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf slime-banner slime-references slime-sbcl-exts)) 03:49:47 probably one of these options add that feature 03:50:17 Im missing asdf, references, (and obviously sbcl) 03:50:48 i don't exacly know which but afaik there is no other option which might be realated to that 03:50:58 keep missing sbcl :D 03:51:04 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-192-51.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:51:12 cgrtt-burn: ok, I'll do some digging :) I think you correctly found the problem though 03:52:40 hmm, its non of them i think 03:52:58 asdf, referances and sbcl extensions are not related 03:53:21 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:53:42 hrm 03:54:35 i'll take a look at slime manual 03:57:10 envi^laptop [n=envi@219.241.46.188] has joined #lisp 03:58:45 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:59:05 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host242.190-227-33.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 03:59:22 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 04:00:22 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:01:13 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 04:02:42 poet: i couldn't find anything related in manual 04:03:14 cgrtt-burn: ok, thanks for trying :) 04:03:18 poet: i thought it would be related to slime-fancy but you didn't say its related 04:03:32 i'm sorry you didn't say its missing 04:03:59 i didn't sleep for 30 hours i'm confused a bit though :) 04:04:19 poet: i think you should try .cl instead of .lisp format 04:04:40 poet: give it a try and let me know if it works 04:05:02 cgrtt-burn: I tried, no luck 04:05:12 hmm 04:06:00 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 04:07:02 (add-hook 'lisp-mode-hook (lambda () (slime-mode t))) 04:07:02 (add-hook 'inferior-lisp-mode-hook (lambda () (inferior-slime-mode t))) 04:07:02 04:07:15 also one of these might work 04:10:48 tried those with no luck :( 04:11:06 my status bar looks like 04:11:16 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host117.190-138-159.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:11:21 ACL test.lisp All (1.0) (Common Lisp; pkg:user) 04:14:58 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:15:37 its probably related to allegro config on .emacs but i'm sorry i don't have any idea about what exactly 04:16:03 thanks ok, you've thought of a lot of things, thanks :) 04:23:10 envi_laptop2 [n=envi@218.237.82.158] has joined #lisp 04:23:17 poet: try this 04:23:22 (add-hook slime-mode-hook 04:23:22 (lambda () 04:23:22 (unless (slime-connected-p) 04:23:22 (save-excursion (slime))))) 04:23:38 poet: that was really the last one :) 04:23:46 i hope it helps :) 04:28:57 -!- envi^laptop [n=envi@219.241.46.188] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:29:44 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:29:49 poet: did it work? 04:34:38 cgrtt-burn: no dice :( 04:34:44 omg 04:35:10 that was from slime manual explaining exactly what you need 04:35:12 I feel like you're putting on a serious display of lisp hackery though :-p 04:35:13 interesting 04:35:23 envi^laptop [n=envi@115.94.144.228] has joined #lisp 04:35:23 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:35:36 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-137-67.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:35:44 poet: no, i'm just another newbie ;) 04:37:03 http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Auto_002dSLIME.html#Auto_002dSLIME 04:37:38 -!- envi^laptop [n=envi@115.94.144.228] has quit [Client Quit] 04:38:03 -!- cgrtt-burn [n=user@88.238.41.136] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:38:04 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:17 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:22 greetings! 04:39:30 arrr! 04:39:45 maybe it doesn't know that .lisp are lisp files, although that would make no sense 04:39:52 puzzle of the day: what function is defined by the following equality: 04:40:03 hefner: talk like a pirate day or somali independence day? 04:40:15 although I've got to call it a night, thanks cgrtt-burn 04:40:20 this equality: *acceptor* == (taskmaster-acceptor (acceptor-taskmaster *acceptor*)) 04:41:01 of course you all know, it's ACCEPTOR-STARTED-P, which I can't find anywhere in hunchentoot sources :-P 04:41:16 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 04:41:49 it's been a profitable day; took ht from 3 requests per second to 12 :-/ 04:42:04 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 04:42:15 still way below my requirement of 22/s 04:43:06 hunchentoot 1.0.0 looks allot like a web-SERVER framework; you can create your own webservers over hunchentoot with a little customization. 04:44:28 -!- poet [n=tsally2@fermat.cse.uiuc.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 04:48:46 also, what does "SC" stand for in sbcl sources? 04:49:18 what the hell is 'south bank' anyway 04:49:52 tweek__: a parisian district? 04:51:13 -!- envi_laptop2 [n=envi@218.237.82.158] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:52:03 -!- Noll_Noll [n=28@c-ee70e253.4542024--62697410.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 04:52:03 and if LW was fully supported by usocket and BT, and I think hunchentoot's code base would be cut in half 04:52:06 -!- sebell [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.1.1"] 04:52:41 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-76-17-41-185.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 04:57:13 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-27-171.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:57:41 back to insanity, implementing READ-SEQUENCE for streams (LOL!) and other stuff 04:57:44 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032609]"] 05:00:33 envi^laptop [n=envi@115.94.144.228] has joined #lisp 05:07:37 -!- psheldr [n=Miranda@217.13.173.123] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:10:56 -!- mjonsson [n=mjonsson@66-234-42-80.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:12:00 -!- jlf`` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:13:24 mjonsson [n=mjonsson@66-234-42-75.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 05:14:39 -!- deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:14:59 deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:16:09 -!- bkudria [n=bkudria@kudria.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:16:38 bkudria [n=bkudria@kudria.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:06 SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.196.186] has joined #lisp 05:32:14 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:32:23 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:51 fi3uyhfb [n=kjghvk@c122-106-189-2.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:35:59 -!- fi3uyhfb [n=kjghvk@c122-106-189-2.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has left #lisp 05:36:38 Rothbardian [n=user@121-73-170-89.dsl.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:03 -!- Rothbardian [n=user@121-73-170-89.dsl.telstraclear.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:39:31 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-27-171.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 05:42:28 Good morning. 05:47:08 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:47:11 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-27-171.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:57:12 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-27-171.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 05:58:04 emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:02:20 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.68.107] has joined #lisp 06:02:35 cgrtt-burn [n=user@88.238.41.136] has joined #lisp 06:02:48 -!- emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 06:06:37 is there any tutorial of mcclip + sbcl on windows 06:06:43 i couldn't find any 06:06:48 mcclim* 06:09:11 emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:11:14 -!- emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has left #lisp 06:11:44 emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:12:54 -!- emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 06:14:16 cgrtt-burn: There is a tutorial for McCLIM in the manual in the Doc directory, but I don't know how well SBCL and McCLIM run on Windows. 06:14:33 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-119-164.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:16:55 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:17:57 (mapcar #'(lambda (x) (incf (beers-left x))) (list-all-people)) 06:18:33 Are you celebrating something? 06:18:39 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-27-171.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:18:40 everyday :-P 06:19:11 Style-warning: Sharpquote-lambda detected. You aren't using cltl1. Put away the #' and the SETQ. 06:19:13 today it's wins over/because-of hunchentoot 06:19:38 woah, i always sharp quote my lambda. helps them stand out. 06:20:53 i was fearing that i might resort to playing with vector SAPs and other crap just to get hunchentoot working well, turns out i can still spit out lisp strings and be "performant". 06:21:45 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.68.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:23:01 (vecto:save-png-stream (tbnl:send-headers)) now THAT was a non-obvious hack 06:23:42 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.2.12] has joined #lisp 06:24:12 in all the libraries that right crap to a stream, you can do it from hunchentoot by doing (send-headers) in plase of the stream symbol, assuming you set the right (content-type*) first :-) 06:24:25 s/right/write/ phonetic typo 06:24:27 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-27-171.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 06:25:36 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.2.12] has left #lisp 06:26:29 and little rucksack outperforms mysql and sqlite. i wouldn't have believed it if someone told me. 06:27:36 instead of hits per second, let us consider megahertz per hit 06:27:43 or MIPS per hit 06:28:14 (per second per hit? perhaps not.) 06:28:53 those things are way over my head, imo. i develop on two laptops and deploy to 5 different VPSses. 06:29:01 can't benchmark that mess to save my life. 06:29:46 i look at the output of apache-bench and if it says 16 requests per second, then 16r/s it is 06:30:10 i'm serving content of a fixed lenght, albeit dynamically generated. 06:31:01 well, "wrapped" more like it. the content are ads in standard IAB sizes. all of them cached in memory. 06:32:14 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 06:34:00 if I am doing the math right (assuming there are 12 hours in a peak internet "day" for a certain geographic region; i can server 16x60x60x12; i pretty much can serve my entire target market out of one box, and that's a win.) 06:34:54 -!- envi^laptop [n=envi@115.94.144.228] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:35:52 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-60-87.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:37:26 it's gonna take allot of manual massaging, chasing down all the URLs that lead to us and see what gets computed, what gets wrapped and what gets served statically. somewhere in between i might spare hunchentoot's back and serve some stuff from mod_fastcgi or similar. there is also the option of embeddin tinyscheme in nginx. etc. 06:37:36 -!- haimez [n=haimez@c-76-104-23-233.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has left #lisp 06:37:46 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-112-110.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:38:13 emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:38:55 -!- emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:39:19 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:33 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:42:04 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.68.107] has joined #lisp 06:42:04 a good hack might be to layer hunchentoot api over fastcgi; GSoC worthy, imo. 06:42:16 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:44:07 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 06:46:04 Hello! 06:46:40 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.161.91] has joined #lisp 06:47:08 k 06:47:10 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:51:30 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:55:18 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:56:12 MrSpec: (polish-p "Brawooo madafaka") :-P 06:57:54 tectonik is the new disco :-P 07:00:17 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:00:22 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:01:01 Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-69-150-57-149.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:01:39 dmiles [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:01:57 Ragnaroek [i=54a64369@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-14c76fba8b4e4e51] has joined #lisp 07:02:34 ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 07:04:15 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has left #lisp 07:04:33 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:04:33 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:04:33 -!- galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:04:33 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-69-150-57-149.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:04:33 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:04:41 galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:05:36 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:05:42 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 07:07:09 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 07:10:14 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:14 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-69-150-57-149.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:14 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 07:10:24 ejs [n=eugen@102-195-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:25 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-69-150-57-149.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 07:11:28 xolus [n=xolus@cpe-98-148-72-74.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:11:58 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:12:53 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 07:13:33 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 07:18:23 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:18:34 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Client Quit] 07:21:11 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:30:36 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:30:44 -!- GrayMagiker [n=steve@97-123-189-76.albq.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:34:11 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@84.46.16.75] has joined #lisp 07:36:48 -!- ejs [n=eugen@102-195-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:38:39 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:39:32 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 07:40:42 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 07:41:55 -!- xolus [n=xolus@cpe-98-148-72-74.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 07:44:53 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:45:08 -!- dmiles [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:51:03 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:52:53 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 07:55:44 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:58:04 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:58:14 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:00:23 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:45 _sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B49134.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:04:54 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:05:28 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:11:06 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:13:07 -!- easch [n=easch@purpletree.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:13:18 easch [n=easch@purpletree.org] has joined #lisp 08:15:13 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 08:16:20 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:18:40 I seem to be completely failing at finding the actual definition of %make-standard-instance in sbcl 08:19:11 grepping the entire source tree for sbcl doesn't seem to yield it. It must be magical. 08:19:52 oh. Oops. 08:20:03 it's a struct constructor. Heh. 08:20:21 *waves hand* this never happened. 08:24:18 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:25:00 spradnyesh1 [n=pradyus@117.192.6.155] has joined #lisp 08:25:15 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:27:29 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 08:29:22 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:29:43 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C914.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:30:22 -!- cgrtt-burn [n=user@88.238.41.136] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:32:27 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.228.70] has joined #lisp 08:33:44 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.68.107] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:34:04 ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.101.94] has joined #lisp 08:39:20 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:40:09 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 08:41:27 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:43:26 younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 08:47:03 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-130-91.w81-48.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:47:06 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:48:47 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:49:13 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:51:49 manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:51:49 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:57:35 -!- manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:57:46 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:58:24 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 08:59:21 -!- spradnyesh1 [n=pradyus@117.192.6.155] has left #lisp 08:59:35 clisp is now just distributing win32 binaries 09:05:44 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 09:05:44 09:05:44 -!- names: ccl-logbot Noll_Noll housel herbieB bob_f peddie jrockway guenthr deepfire wlr tcoppi maxote Wombat1 nullwork PissedNumlock beach clog cipher` manby-ace_ reaver__ kejsaren Davidbrcz younder puchacz ntoll Ogedei ffx` loxs easch kib2 _sulo_ dmiles_afk ecraven xan_ vy Jabberwockey daniel_ lhz mgr galdor ASau` Ragnaroek Modius__ jewel Athas Aankhen`` MrSpec mikesch fusss SandGorgon bkudria deech mjonsson lat drafael lyte Tordek_ dialtone dto3 09:05:44 -!- names: hefner tweek__ sohail wchogg apo_ araujo hugod rstandy leo2007 sphex plutonas a-s dfox sellout slyrus snaffu ianmcorvidae Jasko nvoorhies benny abeaumont HET2 durka42 existentialmonk boyscared S11001001 Cowmoo kami- m4thias` froog_ dostoyevsky mattrepl Quadrescence elias` Fufie BrianRice glogic addled sad0ur l_a_m saikat phadthai free_thinker cracki ia JuanDaugherty Tristam frank_s_ Patzy CrazyEddy tarbo zbigniew albino guaqua kooll rsynnott 09:05:44 -!- names: eirik ramus` r0bby mathrick anekos huangjs wentbackward mrsolo Bucciarati xinming Adrinael woopdeedoo grkz sykopomp ace4016 Dave2 lisppaste ``Erik fnordus lichtblau pkhuong holycow metasyntax Ginei_Morioka kidd1 kleppari hypno Khisanth chii REPLeffect_ kpreid erk hyperboreean eno jeremiah billstclair konr borism mtd michaelw joast yango Cel koning_robot bascule wgl jkantz djinni` doxtor jlf sbahra moesenle TDT spiaggia kuwabara cods joga thom_ 09:05:44 -!- names: thijso felixc authentic rtoym joshe kuhzoo Guest1661 pragma_ azuk @Xof dcrawford meingbg Martinp23 _dima tltstc Zhivago ChopperDave foom minion djkthx bfein cYmen retupmoca Qsource AntiSpamMeta myrkraverk` rotty felipe z0d ineiros bohanlon proq gandhijee vsync sanguinev rlonstein kreuter Fade spacebat Aisling jsnell p_l fgtech egn rlpowell nullman mikezor_ alexbobp DrForr rumbleca nooper madnificent bittin- specbot sjbach scode mornfall nicktastic 09:05:44 -!- names: p8m rodge frontier1 Buganini jyujin_ vcgomes drewc froydnj andy_chicago enn mogunus lnostdal luis robewald_ blast_hardcheese ampleyfly tic_ yahooooo nasloc__ tttsssttt Dazhbog qebab matimago prip lemoinem _3b ivan4th xristos krappie plan9 Riastradh cmm johs stepnem @antifuchs cavelife 09:06:26 -!- manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:06:39 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:07:00 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 09:09:13 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.228.70] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:11:25 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-119-164.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032609]"] 09:14:10 fuss: what do you mean? 09:14:10 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:14:12 manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:14:14 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:14:41 http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=clisp 09:16:19 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 09:19:53 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-192-51.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:21:23 LostMonarch [n=roby@host119-31-dynamic.50-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:21:35 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp025.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 09:26:20 -!- manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:26:54 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:28:53 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 09:29:59 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:31:50 -!- a-s [n=user@92.81.117.113] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:32:11 emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:32:22 pjb [n=t@free.informatimago.com] has joined #lisp 09:32:33 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 09:33:53 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-245.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:36:01 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:37:04 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:37:52 younder: http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=1355&package_id=1340&release_id=635476 09:38:30 Careful! There's an antifuchs here... 09:39:00 anyone know what SC means in sbcl sources? 09:39:09 pjb: heya :-) 09:39:58 fusss: storage class 09:40:00 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:40:13 gaaah, yes of course 09:40:29 that's like not knowing what IR means :-S 09:40:57 there's a file with explanations somewhere in the source 09:41:02 *fusss* has been going on and on about hunchentoot 1.0.0 ealier; optimization and such 09:41:43 i think i got a general high-level view of sbcl sources 09:41:53 the compiler has a MAIN file ffs :-P 09:42:02 sbcl/TLA 09:42:51 monadic_kid [n=snk_kid@87-194-128-26.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:43:21 my mind acrony-exapnds-1 that as "Thread Local ... area?", but it's actually three letter acronym :-P 09:43:37 -!- monadic_kid [n=snk_kid@87-194-128-26.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 09:45:44 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:45:51 Well it will be interesting to test SBCL in a Linux environment. The last time I used Linux all I had was CMUCL. 09:45:52 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 09:47:59 younder: hope you're on a unix variant then 09:48:09 ubuntu 09:48:29 a debian variate 09:49:04 i wrote linux drivers sshing from a windows box. for the last 5 years. just moved to a linux box yesterday; big difference SSHing in vs using as main box :-) 09:49:46 I switched to linux yesterday too 09:50:29 heh 09:50:59 some things become easy, some things take some time to get used to 09:51:37 and you have to give up sometimes, not everything can be made to work like it was before :/ 09:52:14 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:52:15 I've used Unix/Ultrix/Linux off and on since 1986 09:52:20 -!- emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:52:45 i did all my hacking on linux, but over ssh; it was interesting having to configure wifi, for example. never had to do that. or install a CHM reader, or import my imap mail :-) 09:53:00 I haven't got my sound to work yet.. 09:53:14 wow, i'm not the only one :-) 09:53:21 using it for your primary desktop and actually having to deal with the hardware is another thing 09:54:07 although, the difference is a minor one if you use a distribution that takes care of most hardware and gives you a normal desktop 09:54:24 i also used my first non-pine real mail client only a year ago. for the last 10 years i had pine in a shell account. 09:54:47 guaqua: i used slackware since 1997 09:56:06 brb, cereal and Family Guy to wear off the alcohol :-P 09:56:47 guille_ [n=guille_@99.Red-83-42-248.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:59 lol 09:58:15 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.161.91] has quit ["Rebooting"] 09:59:34 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:59:59 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 10:01:35 Art07 [n=user@84.23.62.56] has joined #lisp 10:03:12 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.161.91] has joined #lisp 10:04:28 Traveler5 [n=traveler@117.193.196.243] has joined #lisp 10:05:07 ?: anyone have idea about drakma's error : (Name service error in "getaddrinfo": -5 (No address associated with hostname)) 10:05:57 yeah, no address associated with the hostname you specified 10:07:35 guaqua: this happens rare case, i can't guess when this error occurs, because it raised randomly, how can i avoid it! 10:08:53 it's got something to do with your dns resolver 10:09:04 you have to deal with the condition 10:09:13 and try again - or that's what i'd do 10:09:39 ok, so i just want to retry 10:10:00 Traveler5: create a handler for drakma-condition or drakma-error 10:12:16 -!- dto3 is now known as dto 10:15:08 -!- Art07 [n=user@84.23.62.56] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:18:49 ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 10:20:41 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C914.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:20:48 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 10:28:40 Jabberwock [n=Tumnus_@port-7132.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 10:29:27 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:29:36 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@84.46.16.75] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 10:34:22 ejs [n=eugen@68-220-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 10:36:29 manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:36:29 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:39:25 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 10:39:45 dwave [n=ask@084202073017.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 10:40:29 sleepydog [n=david@58-70-81-140.eonet.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:45:00 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:48:38 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 10:50:54 -!- manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:51:25 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:52:25 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:54:21 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has left #lisp 10:56:05 manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:56:05 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:57:12 -!- ejs [n=eugen@68-220-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:59:07 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-130-91.w81-48.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:00:46 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:00:49 drakma is a http client so you have to deal with the http exceptions 11:00:56 sigh 11:01:52 http://tammersaleh.com/posts/rescuing-net-http-exceptions 11:04:04 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:06:44 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.68.107] has joined #lisp 11:14:09 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 11:22:31 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:22:44 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 11:28:55 -!- manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:29:12 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:31:22 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 11:33:05 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp025.studby.uio.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:39:56 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:41:49 samuels [n=samuels@edu-36.56.zhaw.ch] has joined #lisp 11:43:06 danlei [n=user@pD9E2DA72.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:28 psheldr [n=Miranda@217.13.173.65] has joined #lisp 11:45:20 -!- samuels [n=samuels@edu-36.56.zhaw.ch] has left #lisp 11:48:25 deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:04 yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@95.37.65.6] has joined #lisp 11:59:36 Baughn [n=svein@084202037181.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 12:00:01 -!- ivan4th [n=ivan4th@87.249.9.98] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:00:20 Since I apparently, er, got the name of the hyperspec wrong, I'll try again - is there a package somewhere to typeset CL code, inserting hyperspec links and/or colorizing it? That outputs tex, latex, or something that can be converted to one of those? 12:02:14 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:07 mikesch_ [n=axel@xdsl-78-34-241-115.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:04:16 yes, cl-pdf http://www.cliki.net/CL-PDF 12:05:31 not exactly what you asked for but tex/latex tends to be turned into PDF anyhow 12:05:55 True, but I want to combine it with a latex document. Although.. 12:06:12 isn't there some CL-DOCUMENTATION? 12:06:27 http://weitz.de/documentation-template/ 12:06:31 I don't think cl-pdf does anything but produce pdf files 12:07:08 a friend was talking about something to do literate programming / typesetting in lisp 12:07:10 you can nicely include pdf in latex though, via pdfpages or graphicx 12:07:26 i had thought about making some tools for this in Emacs Lisp but got sidetracked 12:07:41 Sure, if I don't mind using an entire page for a three-line program. That might be avoidable; I'll look into it. 12:08:06 with graphicx, you can include it inline 12:08:31 text selection and so on continue to work, so it's pretty nice 12:08:39 http://paste.lisp.org/display/78786 <-- Here's the sort of colorization/linking I'm looking for. What does p.l.o use, I wonder.. 12:08:56 Source is online, too. Convenient. 12:09:03 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 12:12:09 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-60-87.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:13:09 dto: literate programming in Lisp? I have only seen such a system for Haskell.. 12:13:25 that would be interesting 12:14:17 You can do it easily enough, using external tools such as cweb 12:14:28 younder: i'm still not sure what it would mean. other than a vague sense that it would be something above and beyond docstrings 12:15:01 Literate programming: Text defaults to comments, and code must be specially marked. That's it, really. 12:15:46 But it's kind of convenient to write your code as a latex file, if you're really writing a paper /about/ the code 12:15:59 mmm. then i don't want it 12:17:15 Literate programming works well with Haskell as it tends to be rather terse with few lines. 12:17:27 dto: typesetting in lisp? there was DSSSL 12:17:34 I agree that It would be trivial to write such a system. (Also for Lisp) 12:18:25 I just don't think that it has been done 12:18:45 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:18:52 Well, is cweb generic enough? 12:19:03 I used cweb to do exactly that, back a few years ago. (Then I skipped over to haskell, sorry..) 12:19:06 i want it written in lisp too 12:19:10 :) 12:19:11 CWeb is based on C 12:19:33 It will extract the code from a source file easily enough. ;) 12:19:51 i think there is a CL flavor of cweb, however it typesets lisp code in a proportional font, which IMO looks horrid and messes up the indentation 12:20:05 What's missing is explicit SLIME and compiler support. Should be pretty simple, really 12:20:06 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:20:26 You could easily do it with sed. :-) 12:20:27 dto: Get it to output latex, and you can switch that around as you like 12:21:09 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:34 what about outputting org-mode syntax as an intermediate format? that can be converted to latex and html 12:22:30 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:23:18 If you take haskell as a model, it doesn't need to be even that complex 12:23:31 what do the haskell folks do? 12:23:31 -!- Traveler5 [n=traveler@117.193.196.243] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:23:51 The compiler/ide must recognize code markers (Starting a line with >, or using \begin{code} or \end{code}), and ignore anything outside them 12:24:20 And.. well, that's it. The rest is up to your typesetting system, which can be anything you like. 12:24:44 Obviously \begin{code} is latex-specific, but it wouldn't be hard to parametrize that to use anything the user feels like 12:25:26 that sounds interesting. 12:25:31 (Importantly, \begin{code} is /not/ a standard latex command, so the user gets to define it to fit hist current needs) 12:25:37 ah 12:26:14 Oh, by the way. Last I used lisp (years ago), there was some work being done on a tree-shaker for SBCL. Did that go anywhere? 12:26:28 tree-shaker? 12:26:38 Baughn, no 12:26:42 nop 12:27:40 The tree shakers for ACL and LispWorks are pretty well developed though 12:28:35 Both commercial I am afraid.. 12:28:39 I know. Pity their commercial nature prevents the sort of work I'd like to do. 12:29:18 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-27-171.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:31:28 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:32:15 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:32:28 Baughn: What sort of work would you like to do? 12:32:34 -!- psheldr [n=Miranda@217.13.173.65] has quit ["Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org"] 12:32:45 younder: Open-source. :P 12:32:52 lol 12:33:07 younder: And even when that isn't an issue, I specialize in distributed systems - meaning code migration is an issue 12:33:32 An appropriate ACL license for something like Pyro would cost an arm and a leg 12:34:07 May I remind you that CLisp has the smallest code size 12:34:32 And it might just be fast enough 12:34:46 You may. ;) 12:34:48 ;) 12:35:38 dto: http://fresh.homeunix.net/~luke/misc/emacs/pbook.pdf 12:36:05 I don't know. Lisp has just sort of fallen off the radar lately - I enjoy the simplicity of the syntax, and macros, but it seems so.. eh, let's not turn this into a haskell ad. 12:36:26 It's an excellent case study in reflection, anyhow, which is what I'm writing right now. 12:36:49 michaelw: oh, i've seen this. makes a lot of sense actually. 12:37:43 If you feel you are getting hooked on haskell.. I have the antidote: Let over Lambda by Doug hoyte 12:37:56 fwiw, I have maintained a literate program written by somebody else for a while. it was a complete pain. 12:38:07 younder: It's too late for me. I'm already thinking in Arrows. 12:38:45 It is never to late 12:39:08 Ah, but how do you save someone who doesn't want to be saved? 12:39:27 lol, you don't 12:39:49 (I like haskell too) 12:40:04 Baughn: a common solution is to put them into an asylum for a while :) 12:41:01 younder: i wish there was a LOL version without the endless amounts of lisp propaganda, or at least one where they were clearly makred so you could skip them and jump to the juicy bits.. after all, people who read LOL are probably alsoready convinced of lisp supremacy 12:41:41 Baughn: Take a look at pbook.el. It's sort of the inverse of literate programming, but it seems about as close as you could get without writing it yourself. 12:42:23 Aankhen``: Yes.. thank you for the suggestion, and I will, but I think I'll probably end up writing it myself. :P 12:42:31 It'll give me an excuse to learn deeper latex hackery 12:42:55 I don't particularly envy you. :-) 12:43:11 As a mathematican I have learned the LaTex hackery. 12:43:16 hmm, from what I have seen about Hoyte's ideas and the parts of LoL I skimmed, I was not really impressed. So, either I am off in by judgment or everybody else? 12:43:22 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-27-171.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 12:43:26 Aankhen``: At least it's just a lisp parser 12:43:48 I could imagine doing the same for haskell, but I don't want to. 12:44:04 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:15 michaelw: I think what impressed me was a inspired use of macroes. I was never sure wether it was good or bad. It created too many new names. Thus encfrypting Lisp 12:45:31 encrypting 12:45:57 -!- guille_ [n=guille_@99.Red-83-42-248.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:46:20 his arguments not-for earmuffs are broken. I'm not impressed by Hoyte. 12:46:31 younder: that was one of the things that struck me as bad 12:46:51 where is drewc. he'd be good at punishing Hoyte's macrology. 12:46:58 -!- myrkraverk` is now known as myrkraverk 12:47:19 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:43 I really disliked his disnounsment of CLOS. 12:48:26 pok [i=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 12:48:39 Closures are a lot weaker, despite his invention of 'pandoric macroes' 12:49:44 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:55 What's a pandoric macro? macro-writing macro? 12:50:27 allowing a closure to 'leak' is weaker than 'inheritance' 12:50:29 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:50:53 well that's my two bits 12:51:17 ziarkaen [n=ziarkaen@88-108-111-126.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 12:51:17 like pandora box, when you macroexpand it releases all evils? 12:51:47 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 12:53:23 A pandoric macro allows a closure to export values. Because functions are global and thus can be used to export values local to the closure. 12:53:28 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:55:23 psheldr [n=Miranda@217.13.173.65] has joined #lisp 12:55:39 -!- snaffu [n=roger@oh-69-34-16-39.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:55:49 Is that understandable? 12:56:27 -!- pok [i=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit ["leaving"] 12:58:42 pok [i=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 12:59:20 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.148.80] has joined #lisp 12:59:23 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:59:48 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.196.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:00:35 Well I guess you will just have to read Doug Hoyte's book 'Let over Lambda' (LOL) 13:01:04 thanks, but no thanks 13:01:11 Ryan64 [i=ryan@h144.18.36.67.wyan.org] has joined #lisp 13:01:12 :-) 13:01:50 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:53 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:02:06 -!- Ryan64 [i=ryan@h144.18.36.67.wyan.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:02:24 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88.96.24.54] has joined #lisp 13:02:40 It won't hurt, not any more that Paul Grahams 'On LIsp'. 13:03:54 Which I don't agree with either.. 13:06:51 Apart from that I have been reading Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence by Peder Norvig (PAIP) 13:07:28 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 13:07:31 Who's style I do much agree with 13:08:44 particulary the LUV slides norvig.com/luv-slides.ps 13:12:18 -!- deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:15:18 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0EF7D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:05 -!- yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@95.37.65.6] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:16:31 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-117-181.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 13:18:02 yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@95.37.86.153] has joined #lisp 13:18:03 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 13:20:05 -!- sleepydog [n=david@58-70-81-140.eonet.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:21:26 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:22:34 Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:23:35 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:27:11 -!- Jarv2 is now known as djarvelis 13:27:22 Athas [n=athas@80.161.87.214] has joined #lisp 13:30:06 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:31:45 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:20 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:32:37 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:32:41 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:32:45 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-30.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 13:33:52 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-68-239-77-4.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:05 hello 13:34:23 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 13:34:58 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:11 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:41:23 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 13:45:53 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:46 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:49:07 disumu [n=disumu@p54BCE28E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:11 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0EF7D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:51:13 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:12 s0ber [i=pie@114-45-225-243.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:24 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:55:47 Can someone recommend top 10 most used packages in addition to those already included in sbcl for example? 13:56:02 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:56:11 younder: how do you find the bug? 13:56:17 s/bug/book/ 13:58:39 -!- erk [n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:59:04 erk [n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 13:59:18 leo2007: you could do worse than http://www.cliki.net/Current%20recommended%20libraries 14:05:04 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:03 kpreid: yes, that's what I have in mind. cheers. 14:08:19 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:10:04 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 14:10:04 Does :TYPE property of class slots have any value in SBCL? 14:10:27 type-checking? 14:11:29 stassats: I don't think it does any. 14:11:36 does sbcl have ffi in-built? 14:11:52 leo2007: it does 14:12:46 stassats: (defclass foo () ((bar :initarg :bar :type integer))) and (make-instance 'foo :bar 'bar) plays quite nice in SBCL. 14:13:34 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:50 The value BAR is not of type INTEGER. 14:14:34 So? Isn't that mean there is no type-checking. 14:14:46 no, there is 14:14:56 damn, i've power outage 14:15:59 (declaim (optimize (safety 3))) 14:17:29 cgrtt-burn [n=user@88.238.47.215] has joined #lisp 14:17:31 stassats: afaik sbcl does not ever use the type decls on slots 14:17:56 well, if type checks for me with safety 3 14:17:57 maybe this changed recently 14:17:59 s/if/it/ 14:18:09 The class would have to be sealed to use such declarations statically. 14:18:30 stassats: can I see it in *features*? 14:19:00 leo2007: no 14:19:03 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-137-67.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:19:14 leo2007: (member :sbcl *features*) 14:20:54 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 14:20:57 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Foreign-Function-Interface.html 14:23:53 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:24:20 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-124-177.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:24:24 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-82-81-237-150.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:55 kpreid: thanks for the link 14:25:53 mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:26:11 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.148.80] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:29:04 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:29:18 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 14:29:18 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 14:35:35 hi, how do you guys control connection pooling for a web app with clsql and postgres-sockets? I often have had "FATAL: sorry, too many clients". Before I just increase the number of available connections on postgres and cross my fingers, I would like to know how to control it on cl-sql side. Maybe there's something like blocking wait with timeout if number of connection would exceed pool size? 14:36:06 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-185.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:36:12 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C914.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:39:49 aha, I don't know about cl-sql, I see Postmodern has *max-pool-size*, not sure what it does when number of connections requested would exceed it. 14:40:32 -!- _sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B49134.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:41:38 -!- cgrtt-burn [n=user@88.238.47.215] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:42:07 cgrtt-burn [n=user@88.238.47.215] has joined #lisp 14:43:05 is there any tutorial shows how to set mcclim on win 14:43:39 with clisp or anything 14:43:54 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 14:44:19 SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.196.186] has joined #lisp 14:44:20 *stares* Is there any reason at all why (loop for MULT in LSU do (delete (* P MULT) LST)) would ignore the 3 in LSU = '(1 3 5 7 9) but do everything else? 14:44:36 Yes. 14:44:43 apo_: you're ignoring the result of DELETE. 14:44:43 there it says mcclim works in windows, but there is no tutor about how 14:44:49 apo_: So it cannot work. 14:44:59 pjb: But I thought delete is destructive? 14:45:03 should give a style warning :) 14:45:14 apo_: it cannot change the variable LST. 14:45:20 It knows nothing about it. 14:45:30 pjb: Aw. 14:45:34 It can only change the cons cells in the list it is given. 14:47:06 tcr [n=tcr@138.246.7.145] has joined #lisp 14:47:37 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:49:06 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.75.38] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:49:18 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.75.38] has joined #lisp 14:49:24 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:50:15 noone? 14:50:54 i don't know of any backends for mcclim that use windows 14:51:49 clx does 14:51:58 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88.96.24.54] has quit [] 14:52:00 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 14:52:13 i'm referring to native win32 14:52:29 doesn't lichtblau have a gtk2 backend that worked on win32 (FSVO"worked") 14:53:02 -!- djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:54:38 your best bet if you want to run mcclim on windows is probably to get an x server for windows 14:54:52 yes xming 14:55:21 and i'm that's exactly what i'm trying to do 14:55:46 i mean of course it would be better if there were more alternatives 14:56:00 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.148.80] has joined #lisp 14:56:10 i don't know about clisp, and i haven't compiled clx on windows ever but McCLIM itself loads fine under Allegro 14:56:15 djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:56:20 but now i just want to get it running no matter how 14:56:37 hmm 14:57:00 there is also a win32 sbcl 14:57:08 i bet it works on that 14:58:49 if you're stuck with a windows machine, but do have a little disk space, you can also run sbcl on linux/vmware 14:59:12 yes i'm already using win32 sbcl, the reason i asked of clisp is that there are usually clisp based rumors about mcclim on win, what i'm trying to do is setting sbcl + mcclim + whatever needed for mcclim (xming e.g) 14:59:47 you probably need to download clx 15:01:02 i already downloaded clx 15:01:29 then set your asdf:*central-registry* to have the paths of clx and mcclim 15:01:37 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:04 and do (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :mcclim) 15:03:17 after install a package (in my case ppcre), is there a easy way to bring up its documentation in SLIME? 15:03:29 do i need xming in that config? 15:04:09 I would just try it first, the defaults might work 15:04:10 -!- mikesch_ [n=axel@xdsl-78-34-241-115.netcologne.de] has quit [] 15:04:12 manic12: or will clx backend already handle this 15:05:37 manic12: ok i'll try it as you suggest, also should i use cvs or can i just get them from clicki pages links? 15:06:00 cvs is probably a better bet 15:06:23 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:07:23 ok i'm tryin now :) 15:09:32 -!- yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@95.37.86.153] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:10:06 For anyone in DC, "Advanced and Obscure Common Lisp Features" talk http://www.lisperati.com/fringedc.html 15:11:30 it would be lovely if (links to) slides of all those lisp talks would be collected somewhere central 15:11:39 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:07 I was planning to take notes -- I will ask if he will make his slides available. 15:13:52 Wasn't somebody (Xach?) keeping a directory of local lisp events? Maybe an archive of slides could be kept there too. 15:17:08 manic12: should i use portable clx or original one, in cliki it says its a bit out of date 15:17:30 suggests portable clx for sbcl 15:18:11 cgrtt-burn: it's probably easiest to let clbuild decide 15:18:29 hmm, OTOH, this might not work on windows 15:18:47 use which ever one is newer 15:18:49 a lack of decent gui tk is a pain 15:19:31 cgrtt-burn: http://common-lisp.net/~crhodes/clx 15:20:25 LiamH: the directory was a google calendar. 15:21:18 cgrtt-bu` [n=user@88.238.46.150] has joined #lisp 15:21:29 ah, so I guess no place to store documents; too bad. 15:22:52 kinnetica [n=kinnetic@dhcp-224-143.wireless.american.edu] has joined #lisp 15:24:55 yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@95.37.229.202] has joined #lisp 15:26:26 leo2007: commonqt 15:26:35 minion: commonqt? 15:26:36 commonqt: a Common Lisp binding to the smoke library for Qt. http://common-lisp.net/project/commonqt/ 15:30:13 what's smoke 15:31:21 newlisper [n=lqdshado@97.86.14.99] has joined #lisp 15:31:33 Good morning! 15:31:48 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:32:21 Does anybody here have any experience with getting sbcl to work properly on a Dreamhost account for cgi purposes? 15:33:04 One hurdle I am trying to figure out is how to not exceed my account's virtual memory limitation (my sbcl gets killed by their watchdog). 15:36:10 can't. get yourself a DH PS account in that case. 15:36:24 or wait. it might be that fastcgi gives you more memory. 15:36:44 I was hoping to run it under fastcgi, yeah 15:37:03 I think there's a difference on the memory limit on FastCGI vs CGI. But I'm not sure. 15:37:39 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p54BCE28E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 15:37:52 Fade: there are a few toolkits available but all of them seem amateurish. 15:38:14 I am trying to avoid resorting to PHP or perl... I figured I should be able to get hunchentoot or something working as short fastcgi processes. 15:38:22 -!- cgrtt-burn [n=user@88.238.47.215] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:38:33 Could I be running out of memory because of too large a preallocation size? 15:38:51 It looks like for serious programming (developing a comercial product), it is best to purchase a comercial common lisp. 15:38:54 Not sure.. it shouldn't look at virtual memory, at least. 15:39:13 tic_: many do, though. 15:39:39 michaelw, alright, so it /doesn't/ look at shared memory, then. :-) (if they haven't changed the behaviour) 15:39:53 <_3b> might be better off with another lisp if you need to keep memory usage low, that doesn't seem to be much of a priority for sbcl :) 15:40:24 but the documentation of commonqt looks excellent. 15:40:27 _3b: s/memory usage/address space/ 15:40:36 _3b: Any suggestions? I believe dreamhost is a x86_64 linux. 15:41:12 <_3b> michaelw: no, i meant memory usage (at teh low end specifically though) 15:41:29 According to hunchentoot docs, it looks like I'd need something that supports multiple threads. 15:41:33 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-30.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 15:41:45 And unicode. 15:41:48 <_3b> newlisper: ah, guess i won't suggest clisp then 15:42:04 <_3b> you could try ccl, don't know how big it is 15:42:14 IIRC, clisp has a fcgi interface 15:42:38 jfactor [n=jfactor@student164-75.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 15:43:11 I think I am leaning on hunchentoot only for its cookie handling and so forth. If I can get that feature from a separate package, a basic fcgi interface would be plenty. 15:45:51 -!- Noll_Noll [n=28@c-ee70e253.4542024--62697410.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 15:47:11 Thanks for the help, btw. 15:51:30 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 15:51:31 -!- newlisper [n=lqdshado@97.86.14.99] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:53:04 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 15:55:26 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 15:55:56 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:58:41 ccl tends to be a little smaller than sbcl, memory usage wise 15:59:03 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-188-098-222-252.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:50 gah, there must be an easier way to get a presentation which is still in the REPL back into * than inspect it and then M-RET it 16:00:13 <_3b> right click, 'Copy to REPL'? 16:00:21 doesn't work for me 16:00:42 <_3b> or just hit enter on it, don't remember if that copies the presentation or just the text though 16:01:11 <_3b> are you loading slime-fancy (or whichever subcomponent of that does presentations)? 16:01:17 michaelw: middle-click on the presentation 16:01:34 "copy to repl" just copies the presentation to the repl prompt, and then I am at a loss what to do with it, because "executing" it doesn't work 16:01:42 just press RET 16:01:45 it's self-evaluating 16:02:32 aha! 16:03:15 I foolishly tried to pass it directly as parameter 16:03:43 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:04:31 that should work, too 16:05:05 <_3b> hmm, doesn't seem to be behaving as i expected either 16:05:10 *michaelw* stares at repl 16:05:49 <_3b> tcr: if i do (list 1 2 3), then copy the resulting presentation to repl and hit RET, is illegal function error expected? 16:06:09 that's what I get, too 16:06:34 *_3b* doesn't actually use presentations very often 16:06:38 no that's a bug 16:06:56 hm, or perhaps not 16:07:24 post it to the mailing list 16:07:49 I'll have time for Lisp hacking the weeks comming 16:08:06 well, in (1 2 3) 1 surely is not a propper funtion, so ... 16:08:35 danlei: it's the presentation of a list, i.e., should be treated as an object, not text 16:09:20 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:09:22 michaelw: if i understood right you do evaluate (list 1 2 3), point at it by mouse, then the representation is in the last repl line like so > (1 2 3), then you hit ret, no? 16:09:48 yes 16:10:32 danlei: note that this works when replacing (list 1 2 3) with (make-instance 'foo) 16:10:32 micaelw: i think that's correct, since in (1 2 3) the car is not a function 16:10:43 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:10:59 michaelw: why shouldn't it? 16:11:02 danlei: this is about presentations. 16:11:29 hm, maybe i'm getting something wrong here, if so: sorry 16:12:04 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:12:38 <_3b> danlei: the presentation is supposed to evaluate to teh same list that was returned before, sort of like the *, **, *** variables 16:12:51 <_3b> (if i understand correctly, never used a real lisp machine before :) 16:13:35 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:13:39 _3b: hm, i don't know. it "feels" correct to me. *shrugs* 16:14:22 <_3b> well, if it gets evaluated, there is no way to get the same list back, so doesn't seem like that would be correct (or at lest not useful) 16:16:04 what i mean is: you enter 1, point at it with the mouse, hit return -> > 1, then another return -> 1. ok. now with (list 1 2 3): enter it, point at the result, return -> > (1 2 3), enter -> 1 not a function. (that's what i meant with "feels correct") 16:16:06 <_3b> hmm, quoting it does seem to work 16:16:34 _3b: sure, a quoted list is data ... 16:16:57 danlei: presentations should be a way to move values (objects, including identity) around while you're editing at the REPL. 16:16:57 <_3b> (gensym) -> #:g4487 (eq * ') -> t 16:17:24 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 16:17:58 _3b: guess that makes sense if you want to build literal data via presentations. 16:18:01 <_3b> i guess that is a reasonable way to do things too, since it adds the ability to eval the presentation 16:18:37 <_3b> if it makes it literal, that could be annoying though 16:19:07 _3b: it is literal. I don't see any (portable) way around that. 16:19:36 <_3b> pkhuong: can it turn a non-literal list into a literal one? 16:19:39 mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075595pcs.unl.edu] has joined #lisp 16:20:02 Art07 [n=user@84.23.62.56] has joined #lisp 16:20:19 <_3b> pkhuong: if i do (list 1 2 3), then (values * ) is one value literal and one not? 16:20:40 <_3b> s/(values * right, the presentation will have to be splied in as a literal. 16:21:08 <_3b> even if both lists are eq? 16:21:13 yes. 16:21:18 chickamade [n=aht@123.16.74.111] has joined #lisp 16:21:20 Otherwise you have to assume that the presentation is used in an evaluating context, which might not be true (e.g. #(...)) 16:21:24 evaluating (list 1 2 3) and then (setf (car (1 2 3)) 11), with (1 2 3) being the presentation of the previous result, I would expect (equal ** '(11 2 3)) 16:21:55 perhaps my expectations are off, though 16:23:33 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [] 16:24:14 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.75.38] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:24:28 *_3b* gives up trying to understand hwo it should work :) 16:24:56 _3b: (eq * '#.*) ? 16:25:09 <_3b> no idea 16:25:33 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:25:57 <_3b> (or rather no idea if/why it should be) 16:26:13 <_3b> caffiene headaches aren't conducive to deep thinking :( 16:29:59 <_3b> and actually, i think i was thinking from the wrong side... it is literal by definition, regardless of whether there is any reason for it, or other legal ways to modify the data :) 16:30:19 cgrtt-burn [n=user@88.238.199.136] has joined #lisp 16:31:35 manic12: the default mcclim setup didn't work. there was one error while compiling then i choose accept and compilation finished but nothing works. 16:31:40 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:06 so noone has experiance on running mcclim on win? 16:32:06 do you know any alternatives then or should i stick with ltk? 16:32:34 -!- cgrtt-bu` [n=user@88.238.46.150] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:32:57 you should probably stick with ltk on windows. 16:33:01 I am analyzing and synthesizing sounds, and I find the CLIM Listener very convenient for plotting simple curves. 16:33:04 (you should probably stick with C# on windows) 16:33:32 *hefner* is also synthesizing sounds, but isn't analyzing or plotting anything 16:33:32 I just open a window stream and use the normal drawing operations. 16:33:36 I used lispWorks 16:34:11 hefner: the Listener probably saved me several hours of work today. 16:34:28 cool, that's more or less what it's intended for 16:34:34 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-30.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 16:34:38 yeah nice system 16:34:40 then which linux version do you suggest for common lisp? 16:34:55 I use ubuntu 16:35:15 yeah, having the CLIM command loop running and being able to use output recording on a clim stream window is very convenient. 16:35:32 guille_ [n=guille_@99.Red-83-42-248.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:08 A debian variant, and I use a GNOME win interface 16:36:10 *beach* is (as usual) surprised that there are still people using Windows. 16:36:30 *hefner* is surprised he's still using linux 16:36:50 hefner: this is because we don't have a LispOS yet. 16:38:04 :) you shouldn't be surprised to see there are still windows users since there are no comperable software in some areas in linux 16:38:04 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:07 luckily there's OS X. :P 16:38:23 especially for 3d modelling software 16:38:25 hypno: nice joke 16:39:01 cgrtt-burn: I am surprised there are people interested in those areas. 16:39:02 cgrtt-burn: maya isn't good enough for you? 16:39:32 fe[nl]ix: not that it was, of course, but you already knew that. :) 16:41:20 yes maya is good enuf, but its not enuf :) 16:42:36 So, I need to prove that what minimizes the energy of the difference between a signal S and the best sinusoid (any amplitude, any phase) is the sinusoid given by taking the scalar product between the sine and cosine functions and the signal, and doing the obvious things with the amplitude and the phase. 16:42:51 there are no one software to provide all the needs so usually we have to continously switch between different software 16:43:15 I shall give this to a student or to a young lecturer that has more energy than I do. 16:43:26 :-) 16:43:41 but i didn't know maya has a linux port, rocks :) 16:43:45 -!- chickamade [n=aht@123.16.74.111] has left #lisp 16:47:46 cgrtt-burn: Why do you keep switching? 16:47:54 GNOME rocks 16:48:05 younder: not really, no. 16:48:18 no switch at all 16:48:36 beach: what's your problem with it? 16:48:37 gnome-panel and stumpwm is a fairly nice combo. 16:48:37 *hefner* slaps younder 16:48:50 and on autodesk website, there says maya only works on redhat 16:49:27 hefner: what the f.. 16:49:37 <_3b> softimage works on linux too, doesn't it? 16:50:08 <_3b> (also an autodesk product now, do they own everything yet?) 16:50:09 hefner: maybe he meant that GNOME devs should be thrown rocks at 16:50:12 I'd agree to that 16:50:40 cgrtt-burn: maya? you should be using mirai of course! 16:50:44 oh, how silly of me. of course. sorry, younder. 16:50:50 I like GNOME... or else I would use KDE 16:50:58 younder: I don't know whether the problems that I encounter are with Gnome itself or with the software that uses it, but the fact that it is written in a language that is not type safe means applications just core dump, as opposed to giving me nice restarts. 16:51:11 but Qt has it's own problems 16:51:15 again mirai doesn't have a linux port :) 16:51:28 -!- yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@95.37.229.202] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:51:28 minion: thwap at younder 16:51:33 younder: I am comparing to CLIM, as you should probably know. 16:51:33 younder: please see thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 16:51:41 beach: And you would get around this how? 16:51:50 <_3b> beach: doesn't your continued use of annoying C/c++ based linux software give you insight into people continuing o use windows? :) 16:52:07 younder: CLIM is written in Common Lisp, so I get nice restarts. 16:52:36 _3b: heh. 16:52:38 _3b: It might if I were to give it enough thoughts, but I would prefer that you tell me. 16:52:48 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 16:53:15 _3b: Oh, I get it. Buggy software is the norme on Windows, so people are used to it? 16:54:02 while i agree with MS stuff beeing depressingly boring and not particulary interresting, i for one do not hold neither linux nor unix in general as a model for a nice system. 16:54:05 windows rearly crashes 16:54:15 it too, has /at least/ as many problems. 16:54:30 hypno: I agree with you, which is why we need a LispOS. 16:54:41 in the past perhaps 16:54:47 younder: ? 16:54:50 i find the linux envagelism in the lisp community very very odd, considered it is so fubared by design. :) 16:54:58 <_3b> beach: that, and the problem of better platforms lacking some particular feature that prevents switching 16:55:52 beach: oh, heh. well, perhaps. the dynamic stuff i'm all for, but most of all, what we need is proper /design/ unrelated to language. 16:56:02 _3b: We just have to figure out a way to migrate incrementally; using the new platform for what we supply and letting people use the old one for what we don't (yet). 16:56:18 hypno: i hate linux, but i've got nothing better 16:56:21 <_3b> beach: (not arguing in favor of any particular plarform here, just being amused by your regular 'why do people use windows' combined with the regular 'firefox broke x' or whatever that you seem to run into so often :) 16:56:30 You want a whole windows OS? 16:56:42 hypno: I can't disagree more. The language will determine what is possible to do. 16:56:49 Sounds problematic to me.. 16:56:59 is there a movitz port of maya? i think it may end the discussion :) 16:57:22 _3b: Sure, I am just not very happy with any of the alternatives. 16:58:03 Movitz is a unsuppported linux like OS which has not been developed for 10 years 16:58:18 younder: what is your point? 16:59:06 younder: You are citing the only LispOS effort that (in my opinion) uses the least optimal strategy for development, but you haven't looked at my LispOS pages, nor those of nyef. 16:59:22 It was developed by by my fellow contrymen on norway in the 1990's 16:59:45 <_3b> beach: yeah, i probably wouldn't argue if you wondered about people liking windows as opposed to just using it :) 16:59:53 younder: I happen to know this particular fellow countryman of yours pretty well. 17:01:01 That is more than I do. Of cource I am off to Edinburough in august 17:01:30 Edingburgh 17:01:43 younder: Frode and I have had some very interesting discussions about OS design. 17:01:48 I may never get the spelling right.. 17:01:58 beach: well, sure, and i am all for CL of course, but the point is that the thing needs to be designed, not a mismatch of whatever happends to work. i am talking about proper drawings and a solid engineering foundation; you are talking about construction and implementation. 17:02:09 younder: That's because you don't use abbrevs. 17:02:35 Frode is at the university of Trondheim 17:02:38 beach: is there a place where they are grouped together? I think I'm vaguely interested in OS design with lisp 17:02:45 younder: not anymore 17:02:54 (unless things changed recently) 17:03:12 beach: really? 17:03:18 cgrtt-bu` [n=user@88.238.212.151] has joined #lisp 17:03:58 ehaha a friend of mine discussion, well.. 17:04:02 younder: He used to be in Tromsř, but then went to Oslo to work for a company. He hasn't indicated that he has moved to Trondheim, but then he is not obliged to indicate anything to me of course. 17:04:29 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.109] has joined #lisp 17:04:32 madnificent: I have a web site where I cite nyef's similar web site. 17:04:53 madnificent: but mine wouldn't look like an OS design web site to most people. 17:05:09 nurv101 [n=nurv101@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 17:05:15 beach: link :) 17:05:21 Last I checked he was at NTNU in Trondheim 17:05:47 madnificent: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Lisp-projects/ 17:05:58 so why didn't anyone try to put something on movitz? 17:06:02 beach: I only had a course on OS design, doing more on it in lisp could be nice 17:06:21 younder: you might be right of course. I shall have to get an explanation from him. 17:06:36 cgrtt-bu`: no time? no motivation? 17:07:09 madnificent: Well, I think of OS design very differently from what is taught in traditional courses (where we assume the limitations of the PDP-8 are still valid). 17:07:37 beware; beach is a dangerous radical. 17:07:50 beach: your goal is to have an 'only lisp' OS, wouldn't it be far more feasable to start with the kernel and create a glue layer to allow the execution of ASM (say compiled C)? 17:08:03 cgrtt-bu`: It is *very* hard to build an OS bottom-up, which is why I prefer top-down. 17:08:12 cgrtt-bu`: the amount of work is simply too much. these days i bet it would be easier to get some free kernel with a lot of drivers in, add some CL layer ontop, and go from there, designing things from scratch. 17:08:18 yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@95.37.186.65] has joined #lisp 17:08:52 Lispos .. heh; the amount of work needed wrt. drivers is mind-boggling .. i know little about this, but what about just adding more and more low-level constructs to SBCL until it "becomes an OS" ..? .. i like the new interrupt-handling mechanisms; sb-int:without-interrupt and, stuff .. as more and more of that is added SBCL starts looking more and more like an OS, at least to me :) 17:09:07 madnificent: But that would have to imply that I buy into the concept of a "process", which I consider a restriction that we should have abandoned years ago. 17:09:12 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C914.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:27 Processes are virtual machines. 17:09:31 lnostdal: Good news though, that part we can steal from GNU/Linux. 17:09:39 I used to think that they were a bad idea, but now I know better. 17:09:41 what-the [n=user@88.238.218.11] has joined #lisp 17:09:46 beach: I was wondering some time ago, woludn't it be feasable to remove the difference of 'disk' vs 'ram' from the implementors of the system? (doesn't belong to the previous question) 17:09:48 why the shit is clisp so slow 17:09:50 beach, yes, that is the idea .. work downwards instead of start at the bottom and work up 17:09:57 Zhivago: yes, which makes it hard to communicate between them, other than with bit-streams. 17:09:59 <_3b> tweek__: don't forget to compile 17:10:14 I used asdf to ... well ... it said it compiled 17:10:15 <_3b> tweek__: (if it is still slow, it is because it interprets bytecode) 17:10:15 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.239.9] has joined #lisp 17:10:23 there are fas files in the directory 17:10:37 madnificent: If you remove the difference of 'disk' vs. 'ram', then you end up treating memory like disk, which is not such a great idea. 17:10:39 beach: yes, it would mean that, but it could be implemented as a layer on top the nice system. Even if it wouldn't be implemented correctly, it could provide us with some apps that are worth having (as in: there are 1000 C programmers for each lisp programmer) 17:10:43 sbcl takes four seconds to evaluate a test s-expr that ... is still running in clisp 17:10:44 I have been following the works on massive parallistaion in haskell. But have been more intriged by the work in Oz 17:10:47 beach: hmm, if not processes, then what? (especially if you want concurrency) 17:11:06 madnificent: I don't know whether it would be possible to remove that distinction. 17:11:16 Zhivago: why would you need to care at all? a user may be interested in saving an object (which the OS should support) 17:11:21 It's certainly possible, but there are extreme costs. 17:11:31 hypno: shared address space, so just threads. 17:11:34 I like the Motzart compiler (for Oz) 17:11:43 younder: me too. the wizard has constructed an impressive balloon. 17:11:44 mad: Which means that all objects must be saved and coherency must be supported. 17:11:57 Zhivago: On a not /quite/ random note, have you read the Sinfonia paper? 17:12:01 <_3b> tweek__: yeah, native code vs. bytecode can make a difference, make sure you aren't wasting time on interpreting whatever top level form you entered at the repl (or wthatever too) 17:12:02 madnificent: my current best bet is to implement it as a single GNU/Linux process. 17:12:09 Baughn: Not that I recall. 17:12:17 -!- cgrtt-bu` [n=user@88.238.212.151] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:12:25 Zhivago: Right. Remember transactional shared memory? 17:12:28 -!- what-the [n=user@88.238.218.11] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:12:56 baughn: Sure. 17:13:04 I would rather call the units agents than 'threads' but apart from that I think they are onto something 17:13:33 it compiled, wrote and loaded a file with a .fas extension 17:13:38 beach: given that Coyotos/EROS/KeyKOS appears defunct again, we won't know whether a capabilities-based OS really flies 17:13:52 somehow I don't think it's still interpreting it 17:13:59 Zhivago: It extends that to work across networks, or of course between processes. Adding disk storage to that should be pretty simple in comparison, so while it's not quie transparent persistence, it should be pretty nice 17:14:05 Zhivago: why? You'd be able to save the state of an application. Or an object within the application. The application just tells you that you can actually store it, and what you'd need to store in order te be able to recover the work that has been done. How the object(s) are stored is a responsibility of the OS (and if possible (which it is) the OS shows the user a widget to say where it should be stored) 17:14:22 -!- yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@95.37.186.65] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:14:23 <_3b> tweek__: yeah, i just meant however you are running the code from the file... if you just call (foo), that should be OK 17:14:24 the form is basically (foo bar) where 'foo' is in the file 17:14:25 Ah, I have read the paper. :) 17:14:30 I just forgot the stupid name 17:14:37 michaelw: That effort was abandoned because of financing problems. I discussed it at length with the author (forget his name). Nothing technical. 17:14:37 actually, (time (foo bar)) 17:14:45 -!- deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:14:48 beach: Shapiro 17:14:54 Thanks. 17:14:55 mad: So, by application you mean 'process'? 17:15:01 My memory sucks! 17:15:04 deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:15:10 Have you read AIMA? 17:15:15 <_3b> tweek__: right 17:15:31 tweek__: unless you have good reason to use clisp, you may prefer sbcl or ccl 17:15:45 they're faster and have kinder licenses 17:15:55 <_3b> tweek__: probably bytecode overhead then :( 17:16:06 beach: well, he's been working on it for a very long time (if we start counting with KeyKOS), without really that much to show, no? 17:16:13 also threads and other mod cons :) 17:16:18 clisp is cheap to install and has a nice repl, but it isn't particularly fast. :) 17:16:56 baughn: Why do you mention sinfonia? 17:17:02 being bytecode I would argue that it is particularly slow 17:17:05 *_3b* was surprised at one point when my flash lisp stuff did better than clisp on some microbenchmark :) 17:17:11 michaelw: He is doing what every US researcher has to these days, i.e. going where the money is. We might not be far from that here, but for now we have a little more freedom. 17:17:20 It's surprisingly fast in some respects. 17:17:40 Zhivago: no, application. Say the user clicks a button to 'save' the document. Say the document is stored in *document*, then the application would call (zupahdupah-os-store:request-save *document*) the OS would do the rest. If the OS could save arbitrary objects, then it may become easier to suspend the OS etc 17:17:52 mad: Ok, so what is an application? 17:17:58 rsynnott: it's a class assignment. professor is using clisp, but I might be able to just ask him to use sbcl 17:18:05 I would go for SBCL 17:18:18 it's still evaluating ffs 17:18:26 how the hell is it this slow 17:18:30 mad: Ok, so you're not talking about making the difference between 'memory' and 'disk' disappear, but you're talking about some kind of transparent serialization? 17:18:36 Zhivago: It just seems to me that that sort of explicit transactions would be a good improvement on traditional filesystems, and with sinfonia around it'd work nicely for network filesystems too 17:18:46 differences between implementations are usually like 10-20% at best 17:18:47 Zhivago: an application could be a word processor (you could run multiple word processors at once) (ah well, you could look at it as a traditional process) 17:18:54 Although I am a bit weary of the type inferencer 17:18:56 this is the difference between 'the universe will die before it finishes' 17:19:03 and four goddamned seconds 17:19:08 mad: Well, I don't see what os-level support you need for that. 17:19:10 Zhivago: I'd actually like the programmer to not 'know' about disk... wherever possible 17:19:21 mad: So, what does 'request-save' mean? 17:19:27 I am not used to it.. yet 17:19:30 <_3b> tweek__: sbcl has a very nice native code compiler, clisp compiles to bytecode, probably with less optimization 17:19:32 madnificent: I imagine a LispOS with an object store with "tags" of the form (tag-name value) so that you can search for documents depending on things like author, date, and whatever additional tags you supplied. 17:19:50 <_3b> tweek__: possibly adding better declarations, or changing optimization settings would let clisp compete better 17:19:55 -!- cgrtt-burn [n=user@88.238.199.136] has quit [Success] 17:20:03 sounds like windows desktop search 17:20:10 tweek__: the difference between clisp and sbcl is probably hundreds of times on properly optimized code 17:20:11 Zhivago: it requests a hook to a version of an object, so the user can recover (tag in beach's jargon) it 17:20:13 beach: BeFS had that a long time ago 17:20:30 beach, I was sketching on such a store for regular apps. but I think it'd have to be semi-automatic. (somehow) 17:20:41 beach: did you ever read about winfs? it was supposed to be something like that (and it would be welcome) 17:20:45 mad: So, this is essentially a file-system with no directory structure and no human readable names? 17:21:02 michaelw: really? So you could store say the object "beach", tagged by `friend t' 17:21:05 winfs is like duke nukem forever 17:21:10 Zhivago: the difference is not what, it is where 17:21:31 beach, $ query '(audio:artist=="foo" && audio:length >= 200)' 17:21:44 SBCL produces optimized ix86 code rather than the byte code of clisp 17:21:46 beach, you'd still have the underlying filesystem under, though. 17:21:47 mad: Well, sounds eminently doable at the application level, which is good. 17:21:55 Zhivago: allso, if it would be tag-based, it would actually be mappable to a filesystem (but then again, that's not important) 17:22:04 michaelw: and when you recoverd that object and got (wife x), you got an object eq to whatever you had last time? 17:22:05 doylent [n=doylent@host175-123-dynamic.56-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:22:18 *hefner* does not actually want his operating system rummaging through his files indexing things 17:22:19 Zhivago: oh wait: your 'OS' == kernel? 17:22:23 tic_: file s.. what? 17:22:44 hefner: ? 17:22:53 tic_: this is exactly my problem with current systems, i.e. that there is the concept of a file. 17:22:55 beach: you could store the file "beach", tagged by whatever you want. made querying for collections of mp3s quite easy :) 17:23:02 *michaelw* food 17:23:03 mad: Not particularly. 17:23:09 michaelw: what you do mean "file". 17:23:13 beach: you want to replace the concept of a file with that of an object? 17:23:16 mad: What I mean is that you could happily write such support in an existing lisp system. 17:23:29 madnificent: of course. I think I have said that several times. 17:23:34 beach: with object being *any* object? 17:23:40 of course, yes 17:23:40 beach: What does it mean to be an object? 17:23:50 *madnificent* is in beach 's camp 17:23:51 Zhivago: any Common Lisp object 17:24:09 beach: Ok, and what happens when you change a class? 17:24:09 How much memory do you have beach? :) 17:24:27 Zhivago: The same thing that happens in Common Lisp. 17:24:27 younder: why does that matter? (memory) 17:24:36 younder: why do you care? 17:24:48 beach: So, you need to update every object on the disk every time you change a class, atomically? 17:25:01 (potentially) 17:25:04 madnificent: thanks! 17:25:18 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [No route to host] 17:25:27 Zhivago: who cares about disk. Main memory is a cache for the disk. 17:25:45 beach: Well, people who have a couple of terabytes of disk might. 17:25:48 beach: If you have anough you do not worry about disc space. It becomes merly backup.. I figure you need about 10 GB 17:26:17 Zhivago: They might. They had better use Windows. 17:26:23 tic_: re: Hoyte's macrology .. don't even get me started! :) 17:26:34 younder: I am afraid you don't know what I am talking about. 17:26:52 lol 17:27:09 how is read made available at runtime? 17:27:15 The fundamental problem with using magical objects rather than files is keeping the schemas in sync, particularly when objects move between systems (or into the future or past). 17:27:59 Ragnaroek: It's just a function which reads characters from an input stream, parses them, and creates a Lisp object from it 17:28:21 Zhivago: so only move objects that make sense? IE: if your document consists of 100 objects, you copy the document and all the objects it links to 17:28:55 mad: The only problem is that it becomes very easy for an object to be linked to a very large part of your live graph. 17:29:22 Zhivago: and then you know the design of your application was utterly wrong 17:29:56 That's possibly true, but how do you help people not to shoot themselves in the foot when they do? 17:31:19 Zhivago: perhaps they'd notice that their text-document suddenly had an enormous size? (in all fairness, you can shoot yourself in the foot by using files in the same manner) 17:31:23 Zhivago: provide safety training of course! 17:31:32 so, it's a normal function 17:31:41 clhs read 17:31:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_rd.htm 17:31:44 Ragnaroek: ^^ 17:32:34 beach: isn't your site missing a lisp shell (or something of the likes (like a hackerish repl) 17:32:35 mad: So, each graph of objects would be a single 'file with a size'? How would you handle overlapping graphs saved independently? 17:32:36 emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:32:37 ragnarock.. doomsday in norwegian 17:33:03 jep :) 17:34:10 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 17:34:22 Zhivago: it wouldn't be referred to as a file, but the size of it could probably be determined... now I don't really grasp your problem:) 17:34:48 mad: Well, let's say that I have 'document A' which contains 'picture X', and I have 'document B' which contains 'picture X'. 17:35:04 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.248.223] has joined #lisp 17:35:12 mad: Let's say that I save those documents independently and then recover them independently. 17:35:18 mad: How many picture X do I have? 17:35:26 Zhivago: 1 17:35:42 Zhivago: the objects are stored, don't look at it as if they are files 17:35:43 mad: So, neither document refers to the picture? 17:35:56 Zhivago: they both refer to the same picture :) 17:36:06 mad: Above you said "you copy the document and all the objects it links to". 17:36:23 so if want to compile lisp, I make read available as a lib-function? 17:36:34 Zhivago: redundancy would only be created if you copy the document to a different computer :) 17:36:35 What do you mean, Ragnaroek? 17:37:14 Ragnaroek: READ is typically always available. it is part of your lisp environment. 17:37:29 yes, but If I don't have a lisp environmen 17:37:31 t 17:37:52 for example if I'm writting the compiler in Java or C 17:38:04 Ragnaroek: sounds like you are coming at this from a C mindset. forget that. in the world of lisp, the lisp environment /is/ your world, your system. it is pretty much always available. 17:38:09 mad: What happens when I alter the class of the image? 17:38:20 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:38:24 Ragnaroek: Then you have to implement READ in C, and just make that function available to Lisp code 17:38:57 and if I'm compiling towards JavaScript in JavaScript 17:39:04 or bootstrap a minimal reader to read and compile in a full READ 17:39:17 to Javascript in Javascript? 17:39:22 Zhivago: I do grasp that there is possibly a synchronization error that could happen. It is one of the challenges to be overcome, which is why I initially imposed it as a question... sadly ideas rarely come in a 'works-for-all' package immediately :) 17:39:34 You want to write a compiler written in JavaScript which compiles Lisp code to Javascript code? 17:39:53 no a compiler in Java that's compiles code to JavaScript 17:40:15 Hasn't google released one of those? 17:40:34 drewc, just a wee bit late, or we might've had a flamewar! 17:40:42 (defmethod equal ((lhs class-type) (rhs class-type)) (...)) 17:40:46 yes, but I compiles Java to JavaScript. Not CL :) 17:40:46 what do I really want to do here? 17:40:49 I = it 17:41:25 tweek__: this is the wrong way to think about it. have a look at mw-equiv 17:41:32 tweek__: You want to define a method that just takes to args, and then write a function that compares a &rest parameters by using that function 17:41:39 the compiler is just written in Java 17:41:44 If I get it right what you want 17:42:01 -!- Art07 [n=user@84.23.62.56] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:42:10 I can't redefine 'equal' I guess 17:42:36 nope 17:42:37 tweek__: (shadow 'equal) and you can 17:42:41 tweek__: you can shadow it or define it in your own local package. 17:42:48 Ragnaroek: Then you have to implement READ in Java, and either in Common Lisp (and compile it to JS), or in JS 17:42:56 I don't know why you guys even bother suggesting shadowing. 17:43:02 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:43:08 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:43:13 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:43:16 yeah, I don't want to also wipe out #'equal for other atoms / objects 17:43:16 Zhivago: come to think of it: wouldn't a user 'clone' an object if he wanted to have his own version of it (say: my document thing says it is the way the image is NOW and not in the future). If it doesn't clone it, then there is only one object... Now I don't think I see the problem anymore (but you may find it again for me) 17:43:23 hefner: because they don't guess what he wants but answer correctly in the least useful way :> 17:43:27 or require yet another library that no one has 17:43:36 I'll just use some other name 17:43:47 madnificent: that might be true, but we have one, and I am using it right now. 17:43:59 tweek__: EQUIVALENTP is a good name 17:44:04 beach: ? 17:44:27 i also like KINDASIMILARP and WHATMEWORRY 17:44:40 madnificent: the CLIM Listener is my shell 17:44:47 tweek__: don't worry, if you shadow EQUAL, everybody else will keep using CL:EQUAL (and you have access to it, too) :) 17:45:15 beach: oh right, sweet 17:45:16 so, I have to implement it twice. Once in Java and once in CL 17:45:24 mad: Not in CL. 17:45:31 mad: CL semantics update all of the instances. 17:45:59 *madnificent* thinks Zhivago is not talking about the same problem 17:46:11 You need a CL evaluator for macros. Might as well use it to run a definition of READ in CL. 17:46:11 it's a bootstrapping problem 17:46:49 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2DA72.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:47:28 Zhivago: what dous CL do now (and when) and why wouldn't it be sufficient? 17:47:33 Yes, for the macros I need an interpreter (in Java) 17:48:09 mad: CL updates all of the instances before the next time you use one -- so, effectively immediately. 17:48:12 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 17:48:38 danlei [n=user@pD9E2DA72.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:51 Ragnaroek: You must be experiencing the trouble of having software written in lesser languages. 17:48:56 mad: This is not an incredibly bad thing if they're all in memory, but if you have a terabyte of disk to search, or if some instances are on another system, then reaching them all may be expensive or impossible to do for a long time. 17:49:46 Zhivago: so basically: a system upgrade would automatically migrate all your files, and you wouldn't want that (and actually: wouldn't you be able to postpone that update with some extra metadata?) 17:49:48 Zhivago: Though Common Lisp doesn't require all of the instances to be updated immediately; only before looked at next time. 17:49:52 but for the interpreter if have to parse the source code and can not use read for it 17:50:05 *_3b* doesn't understand why people always want to write lisps in non-lisp languages :p 17:50:09 this is confusing 17:50:22 make-hash-table only accepts #'eq, #'eql, #'equal and a few others 17:50:25 so I guess I need to shadow 17:50:29 Zhivago: the support for class redefinition in CL is pretty weak, though. no provisions for versioning. 17:50:37 tweek__: that won't help you 17:50:40 mad: If you recorded the current schema and the update until you might need them again (which is potentially for ever). 17:50:44 Typical bootstrapping approach: implement a minimal version in the host/low level language, and implement larger and fuller versions via the previous ones. 17:51:06 Implement a mini sexp reader in Java, and use that to read in a full reader. 17:51:10 mad: This is one of the reasons why I think files are actually a pretty good idea. 17:51:29 mad: They let you deal with data that you do not currently understand. 17:51:32 *beach* agrees with _3b 17:52:18 tweek: Shadowing will not magically update make-hash-table's capabilities. 17:52:31 _3b: keeps you honest, no meta-circularity tricks, no phase issues :) 17:52:50 well, how do I hash class instances? 17:53:03 not via CL's hash tables. 17:53:06 <_3b> michaelw: meta-circularity tricks is half the point though :) 17:53:06 minion: genhash 17:53:07 genhash: NET.HEXAPODIA.HASHTABLES This is a Library for generic hash tables. http://www.cliki.net/genhash 17:53:08 right, michaelw its for educational purpose 17:53:10 tweek__: or by identity 17:53:25 Zhivago: so basically: you'd prefer to have some random junk on your filesystem, above having some extra metadata telling you what it currently is? 17:53:39 Most implementations have extensions for custom hash and equality functions I believe. 17:53:47 mad: No. I prefer to be able to look at random junk. 17:53:53 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:53:55 mad: Having extra metadata is ok, too. 17:54:02 could just pull out the contents, string them together and hash that 17:54:13 Zhivago: and why do saved objects prevent you from looking at the data as if it was random? 17:54:22 tweek__: yeah, that's the quick, low rent way. 17:54:24 mad: But, then you're back to 'files' and 'objects saved in files'. 17:54:48 hypno: Well, if you can only look at objects, then you need to understand the objects in order to look at them. 17:55:23 Zhivago: any reader could default to binary for whatever it doesnt understand too, so you have dumped binary objects instead of structured objects with proper meta data. 17:56:02 hefner: I thought the low-rent way is KEY-LIST<-INSTANCE and an EQUAL hashtable? 17:56:11 *beach* goes back to anylizing that sound 17:56:12 hypno: Then you've just declared that every object is a file. 17:56:19 michaelw: that's what I thought he meant. 17:56:24 ah, okay 17:56:31 i certainly do not think there is a point to cater to the unix braindamage of dumping all sorts of shit in all sorts of weird formats in all sorts of incompatible ways. we need order, not more chaos. 17:56:32 hypno: That's not a very bad idea -- it is how C works. 17:56:49 hypno: Every object being a byte sequence :) 17:57:05 Zhivago: why would it be bad to have objects with random data in them, that can later be parsed back into objects (after peeping into them)? 17:57:19 what do you mean by KEY-LIST<-INSTANCE? 17:57:21 Zhivago: I'm searching with you, I may change my view on it 17:57:26 and if first write a small parser, interpreter that can interpret only pure sexps (without reader-macros) 17:57:26 mad: Nothing bad about it, if you want files. 17:57:42 mad: Since that's exactly what a file is -- an unstructured byte sequence. 17:57:53 mad: But, if you don't want files, then you may be unhappy. 17:57:55 the write a new version that uses the old interpreter that delegates the read-macros to the old interpreter 17:57:59 Zhivago: that wouldn't be a file, it would be an ininterned object (uninterned may be a bad word for it) 17:58:01 does that make sense? 17:58:07 mad: So, what's a file? 17:58:13 tweek__: (defun key-list<-instance (o) (list (key1 o) (key-2 o) ...)) 17:58:24 oh. yeah 17:59:30 Zhivago: in the system it wouldn't be regarded as a file, it would be regarded as any other object (thus meaning: you wouldn't have something 'special' to have support for it). Bytestreams aren't necessarily a bad thing though, even if just to support existing standards. Again, I'm thinking here 18:01:28 <_3b> madnificent: so it isn't a file purely since you don't call it a file, right? :) 18:01:30 mad: So, what's a file? :) 18:01:30 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:01:55 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Client Quit] 18:02:30 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:02:57 _3b, Zhivago: this way the abstraction would include all support the concept of files has. It is simply more powerful, as it allows you to do things beyond regular files 18:03:00 -!- ziarkaen [n=ziarkaen@88-108-111-126.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:03:20 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:03:26 -!- cracki_ is now known as cracki 18:03:35 <_3b> madnificent: i'd argue that you only want to change the available metadata, not the file concept 18:03:41 mad: Ok, what extras do we get? 18:03:55 if you use the convention that a . is 1 and an o is 0, then you can write binary in ASCII too 18:04:32 <_3b> why not use #\0 and #\1? 18:04:38 I suspect that the main extra that we get is garbage collection. 18:04:38 Zhivago: versioning of objects on demand. Linking parts of data of applications to each other 18:04:45 _3b: because that was my point! 18:04:56 Hmm, ok, so a versioned file system :) 18:05:20 _3b: no, a file is one entity, an object that would be tagged would essentially consist of a group of files (without anyone needing to care about it) 18:05:35 How can an unstructured file refer to other unstructured files? 18:05:45 Wouldn't you need to understand the structure in order to find the references? 18:05:48 _3b: that is to say, if you want to have the same thing in files, you would have a group of files (probably) 18:05:54 <_3b> madnificent: so, a directory structure? 18:06:04 3b: Perhaps an 'archive'? 18:06:07 <_3b> with hard links 18:06:33 <_3b> Zhivago: no, archives wouldn't share structure 18:06:37 Zhivago: that's why you store objects, because you understand them and can refer to other objects from within them. You can clearly do the same thing from within files, but you'd be reinventing the wheel for the bazilionst time 18:07:36 _3b: if you'd go file-frenzy then you could map it to files yes (but again: you are doing the same thing as arguing that we don't need filesystems, because we can write binary data to the harddrive directly). 18:07:59 <_3b> madnificent: no i'm arguing that filesystem is a flexible enough concept to include what you are saying as well :) 18:08:00 mad: Aren't we talking about how to deal with the objects you don't currently understand? 18:08:23 _3b: well, a binary stream to the disk is flexible enough too... just go ahead :) 18:08:45 <_3b> madnificent: it works pretty well for the big DB vendors :)_ 18:08:49 Zhivago: I believe we're talking about a bazilion things here 18:09:18 in any case, spaghetti is ready here, so if I want to have food tomorrow, I'll better go eat it now (discussion may continue in the near future :) 18:09:27 Enjoy. 18:09:44 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:09:50 Zhivago: thanks 18:09:56 *_3b* should go back to staring and svg and flash stuff (or deciding that the combination isn't worth staring at further) 18:09:58 Zhivago, _3b: it has been interesting in any case 18:10:05 rag: So, you want to write a lisp to javascript compiler? 18:10:06 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:10:26 yes 18:10:46 dreadyman [n=luc@102.55.76-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:47 rag: Have you written a lisp compiler before? 18:12:06 no, but a syntax analyzer :) 18:12:27 Hmm, I would suggest first writing a lisp to lisp compiler. 18:12:37 hi, everybody 18:12:45 Targetting javascript is not very hard, but I wouldn't suggest it as a first exercise. 18:12:49 i have some question about mcclim 18:13:05 do it is the right place to talk about it ? 18:13:12 dready: beach is over there. 18:13:39 :) ok 18:14:00 i would like to make a sort of button into a pane with launch a command 18:14:12 why wouldn't you? 18:14:42 this command can be called by doing M-x , but i would like to do it with a button 18:14:45 <_3b> js has some annoying scope rules if i remember right 18:14:57 i don't find how to do :) 18:15:22 <_3b> though i guess if you aren't worried about performance, you could just use lambdas for all bindings 18:16:00 i serached into the mcclim spec, but i only found invoke-... (that alloed me to launch a comman with no arguments) and with-outpu-as-presentation 18:16:03 rag: Well, because you're likely to get it horribly wrong. 18:16:20 have you an idea of wich function or method i could use ? 18:16:24 dreadyman: My best advice is to forget about the button, and just do it the CLIM way, i.e, PRESENT things that are to be displayed, and ACCEPT things that are to be used by commands. 18:16:24 The binding rules aren't incredibly bad -- and lambda lifting works nicely. 18:17:34 dreadyman: are you one of my students? 18:18:00 Mr Stra... ? 18:18:00 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2DA72.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:18:21 I am Robert Strandh, if that's what you are asking. 18:18:30 yes :)) 18:18:42 i'm one of your students 18:18:49 Excellent! 18:18:53 ;) 18:18:56 Welcome to #lisp! 18:19:02 thanks 18:19:35 <_3b> Zhivago: yeah, just pointing out an impedance mismatch in support of your suggestion to avoid JS as a first compiler target (for a language with CL semantics at least) 18:19:37 so i can't do a button that replace the action of tipping M-x and the name of the command ? 18:20:17 it's like into a menu, you can't launch a command that take argument directly from the menu 18:20:42 dreadyman: You probably could, but it's so un-CLIM to do so. I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. Perhaps define-presentation-to-command-translator would be interesting to you? 18:21:00 clim define-presentation-to-command-translator 18:21:00 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/23-7.html#_1233 18:21:03 danlei [n=user@pD9E2DA72.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:26 cgrtt-burn [n=user@88.238.32.111] has joined #lisp 18:21:43 i looking at this..; 18:22:32 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:41 dreadyman: This would allow any presentation to act as a command in the view that you choose. 18:24:29 a presentation is the way i display some object isn't it ? 18:24:31 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-12-207.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:24:41 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-64-203.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:25:05 dreadyman: Yes, provided you use PRESENT or WITH-OUTPUT-AS-PRESENTATION. 18:25:30 (or something similar) 18:25:50 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:25:50 dreadyman: Are you in my group? 18:26:15 i'm gonna install sbcl + mcclim on linux, but i want to use xubuntu since i'll use linux on virtualbox and xubuntu is faster in that situation, but i wonder if there will be a problem with mcclim since xubuntu uses xfce. i mean is there a better window manager choice to run mcclim, or maybe there is no relation between the window manager and mcclim? 18:26:43 cgrtt-burn: there is no relation between the window manager and mcclim. 18:27:25 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["Reboot!"] 18:27:29 Anthony Moissant et Luc Lafitte csb6a2 18:27:44 like this i think you see who we are 18:28:06 dreadyman: Sort of yes, but this is not my own TD group right? 18:28:13 yes 18:28:21 we are with Mr musumbu 18:28:22 yes it is not, or yes it is? 18:28:27 Ah, OK. 18:28:30 :) 18:28:42 and is there a 'better' choice in linux distro for any criterea, i mean i can use debian, ubuntu or xubuntu. any anventage in one of them? 18:29:09 Why won't you just install linux to your hard drive? 18:29:16 <_3b> cgrtt-burn: just don't let the distro manage lisp stuff for you, and it shouldn't matter :) 18:29:38 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:42 ok, thanks :) 18:29:52 beach: you might be amused to note that this morning's entertainment includes making sounds with delay lines and using your fft code to do convolution for reverb 18:30:16 ok i think we will follow your first advise : forget about the button :D 18:30:17 hefner: Yeah, nice! 18:30:26 -!- cgrtt-burn [n=user@88.238.32.111] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:31:43 dreadyman: One of the great advantages of CLIM is that you don't decide in detail how things will be interacted with when you write the code. Just use PRESENT and others and then decide later on the exact interaction form. This `later' may not arrive during a project of Licence-3. 18:32:26 what is Licence-3? 18:32:29 ok we will do so, we will leave to work a little more, good evening beach and good ( the time of day in your country ) for the others 18:32:45 Fade: Third-year undergraduate program in the Bologna system. 18:32:50 ah 18:32:50 license 3 is the third years of study in france 18:33:03 to fast for me ... 18:33:10 dreadyman: sorry! :) 18:33:14 bnye all and thanks 18:33:16 :) 18:33:19 dreadyman: so long 18:33:36 -!- dreadyman [n=luc@102.55.76-86.rev.gaoland.net] has left #lisp 18:34:14 Now *that*'s how my students should behave. 18:35:26 -!- sanguinev [n=sanguine@116.197.145.49] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 18:36:46 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 18:37:18 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 18:38:28 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a64369@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-14c76fba8b4e4e51] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 18:38:39 i've a question about macros, i'm trying to define a macro to be used with cl-who, but i'm unable to make it work 18:38:56 this works as expected: (with-html-output (*standard-output*) (:p "sth")) 18:40:16 but this doesn't work: (defmacro p () `(:p "sth")) (with-html-output (*standard-output*) (p)) 18:40:28 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:32 shouldn't it be exactly the same? 18:40:40 <_3b> cl-who doesn't expand macros 18:40:47 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-64-203.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:41:12 dreadyman [n=luc@102.55.76-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:14 <_3b> so the with-html-output macro gets expanded before the p macro does 18:41:22 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host119-31-dynamic.50-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 18:41:29 i'm back ! 18:41:33 oh, i see, how weird 18:41:50 beach: we noticed that the save-buffer command don't work 18:41:59 is it normal ? 18:42:10 so i cannot use macros with cl-who? or is there a workaround? 18:42:34 cause we would like to save the buffer, ( we made some add and delete command) 18:42:43 (with-my-macros () ...) 18:43:44 abeaumont: you can define a method on convert-tag-to-string-list 18:44:22 hmmm, i'll take a look at those 18:44:29 thanks! 18:45:47 dreadyman: did you apply the patch I published a while ago? 18:46:07 btw, why doesn't cl-who expand macros? what is the rationale? 18:46:11 i didn't saw a patch so i think i didn't 18:46:15 -!- Athas [n=athas@80.161.87.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:46:22 <_3b> abeaumont: it would require a code-walker 18:46:23 is it on the cremi news ? 18:46:37 dreadyman: yeah, lstinfo.officiel 18:46:46 er, official, I can't remember 18:47:03 a-s [n=user@92.81.117.113] has joined #lisp 18:47:08 ok it a patch to correct the problem with the save-buffer command? 18:47:08 Can anyone explain me for what the parameters var and stream of with-html-output from cl-whop are useful? 18:47:16 <_3b> abeaumont: well, a smarter one, i suppose the currently cl-who is arguably a code walker already 18:47:17 yeah 18:47:26 dreadyman: let me know if your problem is different. 18:48:00 abeaumont, call a function instead; it can use cl-who also .. that way you'll have "nested macros" 18:48:06 <_3b> The-Kenny: it is useful if you want to write to the stream yourself 18:48:13 ..at least something like that works for me 18:48:22 beach: i didn't understod your last reply 18:48:51 <_3b> The-Kenny: var that is, stream is useful for sending the output to somewhere specific 18:48:59 dreadyman: I am just saying that if, after having applied the patch, you are still having problem, please let me know. 18:49:02 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.161.91] has quit ["Induhvidual Quote: I don't mean to take the steam out of your sails, but..."] 18:49:10 ah ok, nop 18:49:16 *beach* should be an on-line teacher instead of this silly lecture stuff. 18:49:52 -!- kinnetica [n=kinnetic@dhcp-224-143.wireless.american.edu] has quit [] 18:50:00 *beach* thinks that it has the additional advantage of forcing his students to use some English from time to time. 18:50:21 _3b: Okay, I think I got it now. 18:50:26 Thank you. 18:50:43 lnostdal: thanks, will try that too 18:51:42 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-64-203.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:55:09 beach: you should be an online tutor :) 18:55:10 or something 18:55:19 it works really nicely for programming stuff, too 18:55:45 sykopomp: I agree, though the working conditions remain to be defined. 18:56:08 and demand for high-quality tutoring is probably low, considering you can't give them a degree :\ 18:56:42 I can't? 18:57:08 I don't know, can you? 18:57:23 I thought only 'real schools' were allowed to give degrees :\ 18:57:28 err, 'real degrees' 18:57:43 Well, I am the head of the (teaching) department of CS here, so I imagine I have some say. 18:57:56 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 18:57:57 heh, yeah. 19:01:29 hmm. random segfaults. time to upgrade from 1.0.22, perhaps. I wonder if there's a correlation with my unusally heavy run-program use today. 19:01:37 Noll_Noll [n=28@c-ee70e253.4542024--62697410.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:03:26 beach: we looked at the patch, do the fact to rename buffer into apex-buffer is important ? we have the following error : There is no applicable method for the generic function 19:03:26 # 19:03:26 when called with arguments 19:03:26 (). 19:04:08 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:04:23 dreadyman: Yes, I think it is important. 19:04:47 bobf_ [n=bob@host81-151-103-60.range81-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:04:51 ok let's M-% ! 19:05:36 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:05:43 dreadyman: My eyes can't remember commands, but my fingers can. What is M-% again? 19:06:05 query replace :) 19:06:15 Ah, of course! 19:06:19 ;) 19:07:07 manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:07:07 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:07:43 C-h k M-% 19:07:47 -!- bobf_ is now known as bobf 19:07:47 dreadyman: Normally, if you applied the `patch' command I supplied, that should have updated your entire code base, including the test input file. 19:08:34 emacsphan: Sorry, I have C-h bound to erase-char or whatever. Old habits. 19:09:47 but we are not working on the git version, so we have some other modifications to do (i think) 19:10:02 beach: really? what do you use for help? 19:10:15 Now, if I could only find a way to get paid to do on-line advicing, that would be great! Already, my wife is a tele-commutor, and has been for some 15 years, and that's very unusual here in France. 19:10:36 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f51d1.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 19:10:56 emacsphan: the equivalent M-x command, which I use much less often than erase-char (or whatever it is) 19:11:05 beach: I see 19:12:04 dreadyman: You'll have to figure that out yourself since I don't now what version you are using. It is a context diff though, so I don't imagine it would break for updated versions of your code. 19:13:34 ok, we test... 19:14:12 *beach* wonders how much he could ask from the university for working past 9pm on a Saturday. 19:14:49 The answer is probably as usual: I can ask as much as I want, and the answer will be: 0. 19:15:09 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-212-179.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:16:26 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:07 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-30.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:18:28 -!- guille_ [n=guille_@99.Red-83-42-248.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:19:00 I have yet to get the asnwer 0 19:19:06 ;) 19:19:13 younder: ? 19:19:59 to quote: beach The answer is probably as usual: I can ask as much as I want, and the answer will be: 0. 19:20:36 beach: it works ;) thanks 19:20:50 younder: ah, OK. 19:21:11 dreadyman: Excellent! But what is it that you are working on? 19:21:36 the subject of our project ? 19:21:47 Sure, but which one? 19:22:39 Baughn: You scare me now. a militant Haskell advocate, here? :P 19:22:47 we implement view and make command to add, delete , perhaps modify 19:22:51 ans add classes 19:23:10 in fact we complete the project 19:24:01 dreadyman: Sounds good so far! Do you want to apply for an internship (stage d'été) to work on it during the summer? No obligations, just checking. 19:24:47 is it payed ? :D 19:25:08 dreadyman: It might be. Apply and we'll see. 19:25:27 the problem is that we already have both a stage for this summer 19:25:37 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:25:39 but why not 19:25:44 p_l: Sadly, Haskell doesn't have much in the way of reflection, and I'm writing a paper on it. So.. 19:26:05 dreadyman: darn! Well, a PdP project would be a nice continuation as well. 19:26:15 dreadyman: (M1) 19:26:37 but what it this stage ? do you wanty this app to be used in the school ? 19:26:45 -!- manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:26:48 -!- Baughn [n=svein@084202037181.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 19:28:52 dreadyman: I think it is already better than the SGSI (which you may not know about), and I get more and more convinced the department needs its own information system, which is why I started this project. But then I got very busy... 19:30:59 in this case, i think we should talk about this ... it could be interesting. 19:31:30 dreadyman: Sure, come see me at some point. Do you want do make an appointment now? 19:31:32 i have to leave, we have a course on tuesday isn't it ? 19:31:45 roadton [i=roadton@122.168.219.173] has joined #lisp 19:32:04 dreadyman: Wednesday, I think. 19:32:07 we could see it tuesday after the course and see for a longer appointment 19:32:18 Sure, fine. 19:32:35 ok, i will come to talk to you tuesday 19:32:47 good evening :) 19:32:56 See you later 19:32:56 bye guys 19:33:31 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 19:34:04 Tordek [n=tordek@host242.190-227-33.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:34:29 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@host242.190-227-33.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:37:02 dreadyman: Tuesday is my *real* bad day for another two weeks. You might be lucky if I am available around 16:00, but as usual, I am very likely not to be in my office unless you make an appointment. 19:38:13 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.148.80] has quit [Success] 19:42:24 -!- psheldr [n=Miranda@217.13.173.65] has quit ["Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org"] 19:43:28 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:46:05 -!- roadton [i=roadton@122.168.219.173] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:46:48 gonzojive [n=red@c-76-102-117-117.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:47 -!- dreadyman [n=luc@102.55.76-86.rev.gaoland.net] has left #lisp 19:49:38 *beach* is very happy to see that *some* of his students follow advice and show up here, and even more happy when they behave... 19:49:39 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:53:20 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:37 Do they often behave poorly? 19:55:14 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.196.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:56:54 actually, i don't think there have been too many problems. 19:57:13 if any. 19:59:18 i think the respect isnt quite there, as it is in some other fields. at least i have way more respect for my current teachers (math/physics) then when i did cs. 20:01:15 I guess encountering professors teaching java, stumbling hard in funny ways or making me write assignments that earned "This is how *NOT* to design programs" comment from me is quite good at eradicating respect... 20:02:09 probably a question of generation as well, but those of us who grew during the 80ths and spent a decade doing programming prior to college, felt pretty qualified even before entering. rarely is that the case in solid science. 20:02:40 that's true (and part of my list of reasons.) 20:02:53 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:36 it's hard to respect someone that makes you "facepalm" during lecture. Especially after having an experience of learning more CS in non-CS IRC channel while in CS lecture 20:05:42 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 20:05:55 yeah, indeed. i switched field because of it, pretty much. 20:08:48 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 20:11:12 hypno: What did you switch to? 20:11:22 benny` [n=benny@i577A09B8.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:11:43 p_l: physics and chemistry. 20:12:15 nice 20:14:44 -!- deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:15:05 deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:17:11 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:18:13 -!- emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:20:20 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-179.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:22:38 Known Bugs and Limitations 20:22:44 - The computer player for Iagno is easy to beat. 20:22:47 alright now I'm pissed off 20:25:37 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:26:26 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1209.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:26:37 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:47 you can't beat the easy opponent? 20:30:35 it's on level 2 20:30:37 of 3 20:30:40 and it's 'easy to beat' 20:30:43 fuck this 20:30:44 I'd be pissed too. Here's a noose, a gun, and some cyanide capsules. I think you know what to do. 20:30:59 'easy to beat' 20:31:04 what type of fucking bug report is that 20:31:05 what game are you playing again? 20:31:12 this asshole put that there just to piss me off 20:31:18 Othello 20:31:34 Othello is easy to beat 20:31:37 :P 20:31:40 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:32:21 just get to the corners and ending sides first and you'll usually win 20:32:26 I'm searching 10ply with negascout and sorted move lists and four different weighted scoring heuristics 20:32:34 positional score matrix 20:32:44 piece count that grows exponentially as the game goes on 20:32:46 ah 20:32:53 bonus for lines 20:32:54 -!- kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 20:33:03 move tally 20:33:14 tweek__: ah, so you wrote the AI for Iagno 20:33:25 (along all stages of the tree, not just at the end - goal is to starve opponent of moves) 20:33:41 no, I'm manually playing Iagno using an AI written in Lisp for an assignment 20:33:44 and it's KICKING MY ASS 20:33:46 ah 20:34:02 'easy to beat'. god 20:34:33 tweek__: just remember the other person has a Mark I Neural Net Proceesah 20:34:45 a learning computer? 20:34:52 hefner: indeed 20:34:53 I'm looking at the source for it right now 20:35:29 anyone else find when working on things of that sort that the more things you add to try and improve its performance, the worse it plays? 20:35:36 it's pretty half-assed 20:35:46 I tried cutting as much as I could out, and still lost 20:35:53 I tried adding it in, and lost 20:36:01 I tried adjusting the weights around a bit, and lost 20:36:18 have you taken into account the possibility that you're just terrible at iagno? 20:36:27 like, pathologically so? 20:36:32 searched with low ply, high ply, several different scoring methods and 20:36:35 what, you mean 20:36:40 I'm so fucking bad at the game (I am) 20:36:45 yeah 20:36:48 that anything I do will automatically be bad at the game too? 20:36:59 yes 20:38:46 ask the guy how he beats it and fix it ;) 20:39:48 maybe all three of my search algorithms are broken 20:40:05 maybe I'm optimizing for my side for both min and max 20:41:12 <_3b> have you tried displaying how your player rates the available moves, and compare that to what a 2nd instance of iagno picks? 20:41:27 <_3b> (or what it suggests if you can ask it how you should move) 20:42:02 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:05 nope, but I'm displaying the entire principal variation 20:42:13 <_3b> or just displaying the ratings in general, might be some obvious flaw (all the same or whatever) 20:42:16 and sometimes I wonder what it's doing 20:42:33 I'll play in 6 7, leaving myself exposed for the corner (7 7) 20:42:45 and the next predicted move is elsewhere on the board, not 7 7 20:42:58 of course iagno decides not to play in the corner either 20:43:05 it's weird 20:43:32 <_3b> you should write a go AI instead, then you have an excuse for not doing well :) 20:43:43 heh 20:44:37 <_3b> or just go out and buy a gew TB drives, and start building a huge move libarary 20:44:43 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BF5A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:47 <_3b> *a few 20:45:06 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:45:17 I suck at go too :( 20:45:32 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["leaving"] 20:50:03 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 20:50:17 99.9% of the human race sucks at go. 20:51:02 99.9999% of the robot race sucks at go 20:51:24 <_3b> 100% depending on where your cutoff is :) 20:51:25 gonzojive_ [n=red@c-24-130-53-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:42 i hear there's a computer go player rated 1 dan now 20:52:01 <_3b> 1d pro? 20:52:07 yeah 20:52:11 <_3b> cool 20:52:24 *_3b* is about 30k :p 20:52:30 i dunno if they claimed the fujitsu prize. 20:52:35 it was a million bucks. 20:55:35 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:58:29 Aren't current AI go players using monte carlo methods instead of move libraries? 20:59:09 <_3b> probably both... go is a bit bigger than reversi though 20:59:23 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-76-102-117-117.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 20:59:56 well, FSVO"AI", they're just crunching through many settings, as usual 21:00:36 <_3b> 'ai is always 'fsvo' though 21:00:39 nice thing is that MC is easily parallelizable 21:01:12 ejs [n=eugen@20-136-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:29 <_3b> seems like most ways you would try to playt something like go would parallelize well 21:02:07 <_3b> not that linear scaling helps with exponetial growth that much :) 21:03:01 <_3b> more a question of whether linear scaling in work correlates to a useful scaling in strength 21:03:13 it doesn't have to... right. 21:06:41 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:08:26 manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:08:26 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:12:21 milanj [n=milan@79.101.170.32] has joined #lisp 21:14:41 -!- ejs [n=eugen@20-136-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:17:17 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 21:18:20 -!- benny` is now known as benny 21:18:21 -!- manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:18:25 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:18:40 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 21:20:36 rvirding [n=rvirding@h252n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:21:57 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:02 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 21:24:04 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:24:24 ejs [n=eugen@20-136-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:16 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:39:23 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:42:53 does common lisp have something similar to defalias in elisp? 21:44:53 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:46:40 (setf symbol-function) 21:47:05 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:21 well, that does not track changes to the original 21:48:04 how about: (defmacro defalias (name other-name) (let (($args (gensym))) `(defun ,name (&rest ,$args) (apply ,other-name ,$args)))) 21:49:11 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:50:22 where is defalias specified to track changes in the original? 21:51:02 okay, you win. 21:51:37 that was a serious question :) 21:51:45 but ok 21:52:15 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 21:53:06 it's not, I hadn't read the docstring of emacs' defalias, which basically suggests what you said 21:53:49 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:14 thanks cmm and michaelw. 21:56:21 I'd like to use maxima (cas) within slime. Is that possible? 21:56:40 http://maxima.sourceforge.net/ 21:56:52 guille_ [n=guille_@99.Red-83-42-248.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:58 -!- guille_ [n=guille_@99.Red-83-42-248.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:59:57 sure 22:00:26 Have you tried axiom? maxima is from a public domain release from 1982. Axiom was developed as a commercial product until 2004 22:01:19 suddenly, dejavu. 22:01:20 :) 22:02:27 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:02:43 leo2007: there's a maxima mode for emacs. 22:03:02 which is itself a bit like slime, I think. 22:03:08 hi; I can't find a serve-event documentation in the sbcl manual, is that normal ? 22:03:23 seem to have mentioned it before yes.. That said axiom is actually a better math program 22:04:01 -!- a-s [n=user@92.81.117.113] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:04:28 -!- Jabberwock [n=Tumnus_@port-7132.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:04:41 i can't remember, is axiom a lisp system? 22:06:32 a lisp program, yes 22:06:37 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f51d1.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:06:50 does it build in sbcl? 22:07:26 Fade: yes 22:07:30 cool 22:07:31 leo2007: imaxima is hard to beat, once it's set up correctly. 22:07:32 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:08:07 the latter part is non-negligible, however. Last time I used it, I had to fix a bug in the latex pprinter. 22:08:50 I am more interested in using it as lisp packages. 22:08:52 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.239.9] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:09:35 for example the emacs interface to maxima is useless once you do something like 'to_lisp();' 22:10:14 http://www.axiom-developer.org/ for the curious 22:10:56 Art07 [n=user@84.23.62.56] has joined #lisp 22:13:30 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.21] has joined #lisp 22:15:29 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:16:16 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-78-34-241-115.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:18:08 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@static-70-108-241-27.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:18:27 younder: does axiom have strong support for linear algebra? 22:19:16 ah, so it seems. 22:19:23 looks like a nice system. 22:19:32 -!- Martinp23 is now known as Martianp23 22:19:45 the interface is a bit primitive. ;) 22:21:00 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-185.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:21:02 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:21:13 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:21:30 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:22:27 cgrtt-burn [n=user@88.238.32.111] has joined #lisp 22:27:02 -!- Art07 [n=user@84.23.62.56] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:28:31 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:29:32 -!- mogunus [n=user@173.9.7.10] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:29:51 mogunus [n=user@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 22:33:38 a-s [n=user@92.80.90.15] has joined #lisp 22:35:07 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-78-34-241-115.netcologne.de] has quit [] 22:35:13 kidd [n=user@79.150.112.60] has joined #lisp 22:37:59 -!- antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has quit ["Caught sigterm, terminating..."] 22:39:23 carr0t [n=accr@221.239.117.67] has joined #lisp 22:44:43 -!- Martianp23 is now known as Martinp23 22:45:31 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:47:29 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-233-254.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 22:54:02 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-245.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 22:54:53 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-185.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:56:06 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:57:50 why doesnt "(defparameter *fn* (let ((count 0)) #'(lambda () (setf count (1+ count)))))" make count 0 again each time? 22:58:13 <_3b> why should it? 22:58:28 "(let ((count 0)" 22:58:36 <_3b> ok, why do you think it doesn't? 22:59:06 becuase that way of assigning count doesnt overwrite count? 22:59:07 bgs100: what do you mean with "each time"? 22:59:33 <_3b> it doesn't assign, it creates a new binding with an initial value 22:59:46 <_3b> and every time that let is evaluated, it makes a new count 23:00:04 <_3b> the lambda closes over the new count 23:01:01 <_3b> (also, (setf foo (1+ foo)) -> (incf foo) ) 23:01:22 what do you mean it closes over the new count? 23:01:52 nvm 23:02:01 What do you mean with "each time"? I fail to grasp the root of your question 23:02:36 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:02:47 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 23:02:49 tcr, if you call it repeatedly, it doesnt set count back to 0 23:03:04 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:03:05 <_3b> what evidence do you have of this? 23:03:28 bgs100: Sure, *FN* is set to a new function that closes over COUNT being initially bound to 0 23:03:40 <_3b> or do you mean why doesn't the new function close over the previous binding? 23:03:56 Of course that does not change anything on the function previously stored in *FN* 23:03:59 <_3b> if you run it twice, you get 2 functions with different bindings of count 23:04:46 _3b, then why isnt it 1 each time? 23:05:05 <_3b> bgs100: paste an example of what you are trying to lisppaste 23:05:06 what do you mean with "each time" now? 23:05:22 <_3b> bgs100: and mark where it doesn't do what you expect 23:05:23 tcr, each time you (funcall *fn*) 23:05:33 <_3b> since for us, it works as it is supposed to 23:05:45 <_3b> so we can't tell where what you expect doesn't match what we expect :) 23:06:20 bgs100: Think about what DEFPARAMETER does, what LAMBDA does 23:06:20 <_3b> or do you mean you expect (funcall *fn*) to return 1 every time, even if you don't re run the defparameter form? 23:07:00 -!- tcr [n=tcr@138.246.7.145] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:07:13 <_3b> the let is evaluated 1 time per evaluation of that defparameter form 23:07:32 <_3b> that binds count to 0, and the function closes over that binding 23:08:00 <_3b> the setf inside that function modifies that binding, so every time you call the function, that binding of count is incremented 23:08:41 <_3b> calling that function doesn't cause the let or defparameter to be evaluated again, so no new bindings are created or initialized to 0 23:09:06 <_3b> (and if that wasn't what you meant, i give up until you paset examples :) 23:09:53 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 23:10:39 so the let is only evaluated once? 23:10:54 http://paste.lisp.org/display/78807 23:10:59 _3b, ^ 23:11:11 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-112-110.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:12 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:17 <_3b> ok, that is what i was explaining at the end then 23:11:44 ok. so where you set count to 0 in let is only eval'ed once? 23:12:26 nvm 23:12:27 <_3b> right, that argument to defparameter is evaluated, and the resultis assigned to *fn* 23:12:32 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@c-24-130-53-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:12:41 Thanks 23:13:26 bgs100: lambda has access to the count-variable, the reference is always to that same variable (which allows you to do neat things) 23:13:35 mqt [i=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:38 -!- doylent [n=doylent@host175-123-dynamic.56-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 23:13:42 -!- mqt [i=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:13:46 bgs100: if you move the let inside the lambda, it will work as you expected :) 23:14:40 Oh... I think I get it now... 23:16:01 <_3b> for example try setting *fn* to (let ((count 0)) (list (lambda () (incf count)) (lambda () (decf count))), and then funcall (first *fn*) or (second *fn*) a few times 23:16:29 <_3b> oops, need 1 more paren on that let 23:17:19 what is FIRST and SECOND? 23:17:35 <_3b> they return the first and second elements in a list 23:17:44 ah 23:17:55 <_3b> same as car and cadr 23:17:58 (first '(1 2 3 4)) 23:18:05 (second '(1 2 3 4)) 23:18:08 try it. 23:18:33 <_3b> CL defines FIRST through TENTH, or you can use NTH 23:19:29 Ok 23:19:36 * (nth 3 '(1 2 3 4)) 23:19:37 4 23:19:47 <_3b> (though remember that FIRST is NTH 0 and so on) 23:22:01 _3b, What is the point of quoting things besides lists? 23:22:14 <_3b> preventing evaluation 23:22:48 <_3b> 'foo is the symbol with name "FOO", while foo is evaluates to the contents of the binding foo 23:25:16 What is an example of using that? 23:25:31 <_3b> (funcall '+ 1 2 3) 23:25:58 <_3b> (find 'bar '(foo bar baz)) 23:26:23 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:26:47 *_3b* can't remember if any other atoms are not self-evaluating 23:27:17 <_3b> if you want, you can quote numbers too, but since they evaluate to themselves anyway, it doesn't do much 23:27:22 <_3b> (+ '1 '2 '3) 23:27:33 Ok 23:27:35 Thanks 23:28:07 <_3b> quoting symbols is also useful for writing macros, when you want to put the symbols into the expansion without evaluating them 23:31:54 antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:49 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:34:00 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 23:34:38 -!- cgrtt-burn [n=user@88.238.32.111] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:39:46 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C914.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:42:26 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-99-23-189-189.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:44:28 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["DON'T PANIC!"] 23:49:32 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [] 23:50:05 Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 23:51:30 apo [n=apo@pD9E7EFA3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:24 alec [n=alec@pool-96-233-16-99.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:57 -!- konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:59:20 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp